716: Take the Null

0:00:00How has Siri AI been working for you?

0:00:03Like sh why do you ask?

0:00:04Well Yeah, the first question should be: are you using Siri AI?

0:00:08Uh and I think my answer is like not really.

0:00:11Like I I so far I have not asked it to do anything that

0:00:15I didn't ask my phone to do before Siri AI.

0:00:18So basically I'm using the same functionality as I used to, but now it's

0:00:21a little bit slower and ask me more follow up questions.

0:00:24But that's that's a little bit on me because I should be realizing it

0:00:26can do more than that now and asking it more and I haven't been.

0:00:29Yeah, I mean all uh um obviously I was snarking a second ago, but

0:00:33I kind of mean it.

0:00:35Um, I feel like in what what are we on?

0:00:38Twenty seven two.

0:00:39In twenty In 2072, the stuff that used to be local and then seemingly

0:00:44wasn't local, like setting a timer is a great example.

0:00:47That up until 272 was awful.

0:00:51It was just abysmal.

0:00:53You know, set a timer for two minutes and wait ten, fifteen seconds.

0:00:57Sure, timer set for, you know, two minutes four or one minute and forty

0:01:00seconds or whatever, 'cause at least it was smart enough to offset itself.

0:01:03But it was real bad.

0:01:05At least it wasn't like did you say set a timer or bet a

0:01:09limer?

0:01:10Like That's baffling.

0:01:11Those responses baffle.

0:01:13They're so it's so far off.

0:01:15Yep.

0:01:15No, that is very true.

0:01:16Um but no, that got better with twenty seven two, but in general I

0:01:20feel like early on, and I'm not the only person who said this, but

0:01:24early on I felt like, yeah, this is way better.

0:01:26I'm loving this, it's working so much better, blah blah blah.

0:01:29And then it got like real bad.

0:01:32It and I think, and maybe this is me just making this up, but

0:01:35I feel like um it was around the time that everyone else got access

0:01:39to it that suddenly things got real crummy.

0:01:42Um and then eventually it seems to have gotten a little bit better now,

0:01:47but it's not been all roses and pansies.

0:01:50Now it's also worth noting, I was not on the beta.

0:01:53I don't think I ever ran a beta and if I did it was

0:01:55at the or no, I think it I ran I I didn't run anything

0:01:57until the release candidate.

0:01:59And that was obviously way at the end of the cycle.

0:02:01So a lot of people had really positive things to say during the beta

0:02:05cycle, and I can't speak to that one way or the other.

0:02:07I have had the same types of experiences with Siri AI that I've always

0:02:11had with Siri, which is sometimes it's really useful and a lot of times

0:02:16it fails.

0:02:16And the failure rate is high enough now that I'm just, I'm like, I

0:02:21I hesitate to ask it anything anymore.

0:02:23So here we are again.

0:02:25Here's some examples of things I've asked it recently that have worked and not

0:02:28worked.

0:02:29Um I asked it uh sometime the other day when I was gonna spend

0:02:32a couple of days in Manhattan and I said, What's the weather like between

0:02:35now and Wednesday morning in Manhattan?

0:02:37And what are the highs and lows mainly in that range?

0:02:39And it gave me a nice, clear weather report answer.

0:02:42That was great.

0:02:43I asked it w of you know recently I asked what time is sunrise?

0:02:46And it nailed it.

0:02:47Perfect.

0:02:47Although it did say I said what time is sunrise at night?

0:02:51And it said today sunrise was at 705 AM.

0:02:53It's like okay, I mean it's gonna be close enough tomorrow, but that's still

0:02:56okay, whatever.

0:02:57I said does Blue Bottle have a larger owning company?

0:03:00And it said yes.

0:03:01And it gave me the company name and everything.

0:03:03Okay, okay.

0:03:03Those are good.

0:03:04Two of the best were what kind of recycling is tonight?

0:03:09Because here we have recycling in alternating weeks.

0:03:11One week is like cardboard and the other week is like bottles and cans

0:03:14and I have them in my calendar.

0:03:15And it figured out and it said tiny is cardboard recycling.

0:03:18Perfect.

0:03:19Those are great.

0:03:20I added there was um something that uh John Gruber gave me the address

0:03:24of a million years ago and I couldn't remember what it was, and I

0:03:26said John Gruber told me the address of so and so.

0:03:28What is it?

0:03:29And it dug through my messages with John Gruber, and sure enough, there was

0:03:32the message.

0:03:33That's great.

0:03:34Yeah.

0:03:34But I also asked it, there was a Adam had a friend uh who

0:03:38was over and she said something really funny, and I wrote it down in

0:03:40Fineliner.

0:03:41And Fineliner in d indexes all of its stuff with Si with Siri.

0:03:44And I can check.

0:03:44I have like a debug log to see like what did my copy of

0:03:47the app index so I can make sure it's there.

0:03:49And I asked what was so and so's quote in FineLiner, no chance.

0:03:53Didn't it search for a while, couldn't look anywhere.

0:03:56It said, I couldn't find a quote from so and so in Fineliner.

0:03:59I checked your messages, emails, and notes, but nothing came up.

0:04:02Which means sounds like it wasn't indexing.

0:04:04Okay, whatever.

0:04:05I was walking in the city and there's a there's a long elevated park

0:04:08called the High Line.

0:04:09It's a elevator rail platform that's been converted and there's the best.

0:04:12There's certain there's it's like because it's an elevated platform, there's staircases every few

0:04:16blocks.

0:04:16And I asked where is the northernmost entrance to the Highline?

0:04:21And it thought for a while and it gave me the address of the

0:04:23Highline, like the main middle of it, whatever it was.

0:04:26Like not even close.

0:04:27Now that I then proceeded to go ask an AI app this exact same

0:04:31question: Where's northernmost entrance to the high line?

0:04:33It got it immediately and and told me exactly where it was, like where

0:04:37the staircase was on this street and this street.

0:04:39Perfect.

0:04:39So I know AI can do this.

0:04:41It just didn't do it.

0:04:42I also uh at at some point recently uh asked give me directions to

0:04:47Little Island, which is another thing over there in in Manhattan.

0:04:50It just spun for a while.

0:04:53And then just didn't do anything.

0:04:54And I'm like, uh um, okay.

0:04:57Like, do I ask again?

0:04:58So I tried asking again, and it's like Just spun for a while and

0:05:01it said, getting directions to Little Island.

0:05:03And it got me driving directions.

0:05:05Now, I am walking.

0:05:07I had been walking at that point for many blocks.

0:05:09I am clearly walking.

0:05:11I said, no, no, no.

0:05:12I said, give me walking directions.

0:05:14And then it said, getting walking directions to the little island.

0:05:16And then just didn't ever again.

0:05:19Okay.

0:05:21Yesterday I was on the train platform here in the suburbs, and uh there

0:05:26was something going on that I thought, you know what?

0:05:29I should probably call the police about this.

0:05:31Oh, that's it was getting it it was not it didn't seem like an

0:05:35emergency.

0:05:36So I thought, I don't want 911.

0:05:39So I put up Syria and I said, call the Suffolk County police.

0:05:43And it thought for a while and it said, Here's the number for the

0:05:46Suffolk County Police.

0:05:47I can't call it for you.

0:05:50Okay.

0:05:50Now it was showing the number in that little blob up top, you know,

0:05:53the live activity area blob.

0:05:54So I'm like all right, can I just tap the number, please?

0:05:57And I tap it and it shows a menu inside the blob that is

0:06:01clipped by the blob and tapping the phone number in the menu does not

0:06:05call it.

0:06:07Cool.

0:06:07The one time you ever wanted those data detectors and they're not there.

0:06:10Like where it makes every single number anywhere and any Apple OS uh thinks

0:06:14it's a phone number.

0:06:15Yeah.

0:06:15Like it just like if this was you know, a more urgent thing, like

0:06:21I thought asking Siri for the number for a local police department would be

0:06:25faster than trying to search the web for it and, you know, find it

0:06:29that way.

0:06:30Nope.

0:06:31Sure.

0:06:31It's so it's just why why do I keep doing this?

0:06:35If any of the major AI apps You know, Claude's sponsor of this episode,

0:06:39disclaimer, but if Claude or Gemini or ChatGPT, if any of them failed as

0:06:45often as Siri does, we would never use it again.

0:06:49But we tolerate this level of failure from Siri.

0:06:51I I don't entirely know why.

0:06:53Um, but I I just I wish Apple would hold themselves to even higher

0:06:58standards for Siri because while Siri AI can do amazing things and sometimes does

0:07:03amazing things, the failure rate is still so high on dumb stuff that should

0:07:08work.

0:07:08I hope they don't think this is good enough.

0:07:10I hope they I hope that the high-ups at Apple, even though they say

0:07:14how amazing this is, I hope they know it still sucks a lot of

0:07:18the time.

0:07:19And that they're working to fix it because it's not good enough.

0:07:24This is your final warning for all of 2026.

0:07:30This is it.

0:07:31This is that moment.

0:07:32If you're driving Use a signal because you're a grown-up and then pull over

0:07:37and go to atp.fm slash store.

0:07:40If you're walking, check your blind spots and then move to the side of

0:07:44the sidewalk and then go to atp.fm slash store.

0:07:47And now is the moment to go ahead and place your orders.

0:07:51For Americans, we hope but do not guarantee that they should be here in

0:07:55in time for Christmas.

0:07:57For Europeans, uh all bets are off.

0:07:59I'm so sorry.

0:08:00But, anyways, um we have a bunch of stuff on offer.

0:08:04John, I will let you decide if you want to go through a quick

0:08:06nickel tour or if you just want to speed run this.

0:08:09But for real, for real, the store closes this upcoming Sunday.

0:08:13With this, this is uh being recorded on a Wednesday.

0:08:16You probably won't hear it until Thursday or Friday.

0:08:19It is going to be all done on Sunday.

0:08:22Don't be that person.

0:08:25It happens about 15 times every sale in a ha ha.

0:08:28Guess what I almost did, but I didn't weigh.

0:08:30But don't be the actual person, which happens at least once every sale.

0:08:34Oh no, oh no, it was me this time.

0:08:38I'm the one that forgot.

0:08:39ATP.fm slash store.

0:08:41John, how would you like to handle this?

0:08:42Do you want to speedrun or do you wanna take us on a quick

0:08:45final tour?

0:08:46First I want to say that the sale ends November eighth.

0:08:48Hopefully you're hearing this episode before November eighth, or even if it is November

0:08:51eighth, I think we have until midnight.

0:08:53So get out there and buy the stuff.

0:08:54Um uh I just wanna have a couple of updates.

0:08:57First, enough people ordered the A18 Pro shirt that it will be printed.

0:09:01Barely, but still.

0:09:02So good.

0:09:03You know, kudos to all the AT and Pro people.

0:09:05Second.

0:09:06Uh the response to the ATP Pride and Trans Pride shirts has been amazing.

0:09:10They're far and away our best sellers.

0:09:11Obviously, we don't

0:09:14end, we'll tally everything up and then we'll announce on the show how much

0:09:17money is being donated to both of these two charities, Trans Lifeline and Transgender

0:09:21Law Center.

0:09:22But I just wanna give kudos to everybody, all of our listeners who are

0:09:25overwhelmingly buying these two shirts, which is great.

0:09:28Not sure uh when and what the upcoming, like if we do this again,

0:09:33we might put like the our you know our pride logos on a different

0:09:37uh piece of thing, maybe we'll embroider on something or whatever, but like don't

0:09:40think, oh you they're just gonna have these shirts all the time.

0:09:42If you want an ATP Pride or ATP Trans Pride thing, t shirt, long

0:09:46sleeve shirt, tank top, uh pullover hoodie, sweatshirt, get it now.

0:09:50Because like any of our products, I mean we get we get emails like

0:09:53this all the time, all throughout the entire year.

0:09:54Hey, could you bring back the whatever shirt?

0:09:57Not always.

0:09:58Like, you know, when are you gonna sell this thing again?

0:10:01We might, in a couple years, or we might never sell it again.

0:10:03So don't just assume because you see something for sale now that it'll be

0:10:06for sale later.

0:10:07Get it now uh if you want it.

0:10:09Uh and that includes the uh the zip hoodie uh that kind of now

0:10:12comes in multiple colors.

0:10:13So if you've if you just never wanted a black hoodie or you're sick

0:10:16of black hoodies, try one of the colors.

0:10:18It's not many colors, but there are colors other than black, and then also

0:10:21the polo, like the polo is selling pretty briskly too.

0:10:23But again, this may be the last time we ever sell a polo because

0:10:25it's so damn expensive.

0:10:26We're making zero money on it.

0:10:28So it's not there's no charity with ATP polo.

0:10:30It's just very expensive.

0:10:31So do not wait.

0:10:33Um luckily ATP gift memberships are available all year round.

0:10:36So you can save them as a last-minute gift.

0:10:38The night before Christmas, you can, you know, say, Oh no, I don't know

0:10:41where to get this nerd in my life, or I d someone doesn't know

0:10:43what to get me.

0:10:43So you can always do that.

0:10:45But for the merch, November 8th, do not wait.

0:10:48Yeah, and to be clear, we we aren't saying uh John is not trying

0:10:52to br like bring upon artificial scarcity.

0:10:55We really and truly do not know what will go what will happen in

0:10:59the future with regard to pride, trans, or really any of these products.

0:11:02And so the safe bet is to just go ahead and order.

0:11:05And generally speaking, we try to do different stuff each sale with the exception

0:11:10of the like bog standard ATP shirt.

0:11:13Um, generally we try to try to mix things up.

0:11:16So if it may end up that we'll do pr pride and trans pride

0:11:20forever, it may end up that this is a one and done.

0:11:22We genuinely do not know sitting here.

0:11:24So if there's a question, like John said, the other thing we get constantly,

0:11:28other than oh my gosh, it was me this time, is hey, could you

0:11:30bring back, just like John said?

0:11:32And maybe, but maybe not.

0:11:34Uh one thing I can say though is our policy has always been um

0:11:38for the for the shirts for the M chips, we basically only do them

0:11:42once.

0:11:43Oh, that's right.

0:11:44So like we have the on-demand shirts that we have like M1 through whatever,

0:11:47like on-demand shirts that are just not as printed as well.

0:11:50But the good printed versions of any of like the chip shirts, we do

0:11:55them once.

0:11:55So it you there's never gonna be another M5 Ultra shirt or M5 Ultra

0:12:00Interposer shirt because those aren't they're not is an on-on-demand version.

0:12:03It just comes out when the the things come out.

0:12:05So those, I mean, we could obviously change the policy, but we've been consistent

0:12:08since the M1.

0:12:09We sell the shirt the good versions of the shirts when the chip is

0:12:13new and pretty much never again.

0:12:15Yep.

0:12:15But uh yeah, so I don't want you to be cross with us if

0:12:18we do end up doing more pride or trans pride shirts in the future.

0:12:21Cross.

0:12:21Are you British?

0:12:22Yeah.

0:12:23This talks to Mike on a podcast too much.

0:12:25I know.

0:12:25I said VOD standard a minute ago, which I've I absolutely think of as

0:12:28a Britishism.

0:12:29I don't know what's happening over here.

0:12:30But anyway, um all all we're saying is now is the time.

0:12:33You have until this coming Sunday, November 8th, at midnight ATP time.

0:12:38So please, please, please, ATP.fm slash door.

0:12:42All right, let's talk about this sweet new app that is sweeping the the

0:12:46nation.

0:12:46Fineliner.

0:12:47Uh Nick Foster writes, in honor of ATP bringing back their best shirt, the

0:12:51Palm Graffiti shirt and Marco's new app.

0:12:53Please enjoy this Fine Liner profile where every letter is in graffiti.

0:12:57Uh we will have a link in the show notes, which in which in

0:12:59turn has a picture in it.

0:13:01This is incredible.

0:13:03I love it.

0:13:04And Nick was even kind enough to include I don't know how you want

0:13:07me to phrase this, Marco, but like a a downloadable pack so you can

0:13:11use this yourself.

0:13:12Yeah.

0:13:12This is incredible.

0:13:13Yeah.

0:13:14So that's what what Nick included was the profile export.

0:13:16Um There there it is.

0:13:17Thank you.

0:13:18Because you know everything everything in Finland are just a database.

0:13:21And so I kind of gave it its own quote document format for exports,

0:13:25which is just a SQLite database.

0:13:27And one of the things you can export besides individual notebooks is your profile,

0:13:31which includes the avatar, icons, and font.

0:13:34Um so that that that is the part that Nick exported here, which is

0:13:37great.

0:13:37Um and I I loved this so much.

0:13:42This kind of the this was not a good thing for me to see

0:13:46when I had like an hour to kill afterwards.

0:13:49Because I'm like, hmm, this gives me some ideas.

0:13:54Now I had already Fineliner, um, as you mentioned, it's you know, it's a

0:13:58note-taking app and I'm not gonna spoil too much about it, but the idea

0:14:02is um I was trying to figure out, like on the lead up to

0:14:06launch, how do I make this useful on an iPhone that does not have

0:14:10pencil support?

0:14:11Which is most iPhones except the duo.

0:14:13So, you know, it's on the iPad, it's very nice to take notes on

0:14:17Feinliner on an iPad bec if you have a pencil, because y it's easy

0:14:21to take precise handwritten notes.

0:14:24Uh on iPhones, that's it's harder to make that useful.

0:14:27And so I added a text tool for iPhones that uh gives them a

0:14:30full you know, full blown text box you could just type into it.

0:14:33Um if you happen to have your own custom font uh established in the

0:14:36app, it will use that.

0:14:37It's It'll reflow the text around stuff if you drag stuff in and out

0:14:41of the text, uh, et cetera.

0:14:42But um I was thinking, like, are there better ways to input text on

0:14:49devices when you don't have a pencil with you or if you're on a

0:14:51device that doesn't pencil.

0:14:53And one of the things I thought of was wouldn't it be funny to

0:14:56put like a graffiti area on the bottom?

0:14:59Just to have you know, obviously not that wouldn't be the only way to

0:15:02input text, but that would be like a fun mode.

0:15:05And to and to kind of like test out like how w how would

0:15:08that feel today?

0:15:09I actually booted up like I found one of those Palm OS emulator websites

0:15:12that like you know, because now nice everyone's making these amazing emulators of old

0:15:17computing and game hardware that you can just run in your browser.

0:15:20So I found one of those and uh booted up Pomel S and I'm

0:15:24like, let me see like how how is graffiti today?

0:15:26And like I have only the fondest memories for all of this.

0:15:32Yeah.

0:15:33But wow, is it slow to enter text.

0:15:36It's horrendous.

0:15:38Like it would it it would be it's so much worse than using an

0:15:41on-screen keyboard on a modern touch device.

0:15:44Like it there would be no reason for me to ever actually do it

0:15:48besides maybe like a fun April Fool's gag.

0:15:51Um I'm not sure if that's my style, but it was it was really

0:15:55fun to play with an old palm.

0:15:57Uh you know, I I virtualized like a Palm five X, which is the

0:16:00my favorite one ever.

0:16:01And it was it was so fun to see it.

0:16:04And and as I as I when I bought one on eBay a couple

0:16:07years ago to play around with, like they are really fun to play with

0:16:10for a brief time, but it is kind of like, okay, this was wonderful

0:16:15in the 90s slash early 2000s when this came out, but it's it's not

0:16:20what you want to use now when you have other options.

0:16:22But this was so cool.

0:16:24Like I love the actual graffiti look.

0:16:28I love all these ridiculous characters and the weird way you had to make

0:16:31certain things, especially like the F and the T.

0:16:33Like it I love this so much.

0:16:36Yep.

0:16:36This is really, really well done.

0:16:38Whatever holding company currently owns the rights to graffiti would probably find you and

0:16:42sue you anyway.

0:16:42Well they d I mean they're so far they're okay with our shirts, don't

0:16:45tell them.

0:16:45But uh it's it's a lot of fun.

0:16:48Yeah.

0:16:49Yeah, don't don't tell BMW or Apple either.

0:16:51Yeah, but speaking of shirts uh the graffiti shirt, uh, I think this is

0:16:54the second time we've ever sold it and it probably won't be back for

0:16:56years.

0:16:56So if you want one, get it.

0:16:57Yeah.

0:16:58But also, I I'll I will just give a quick update on Fineliner while

0:17:01we are on the topic.

0:17:02Uh it's going very well so far.

0:17:04Thank you to everybody for all the very kind words and a lot of

0:17:07um, you know, getting a lot of replies on social media, getting a lot

0:17:11of nice emails.

0:17:12Um, it seems to be i i it's not like exploding in popularity yet.

0:17:16It's a relatively like casual casual start, I would say.

0:17:20It's it's not like you know, it's not setting the world on fire yet.

0:17:23But I'm kind of I'm what I'm hoping for is organic growth and spreading.

0:17:28And so, hey, if you like it, spread it.

0:17:30Uh thank you.

0:17:31And uh for everyone else, uh just thank you.

0:17:34I appreciate you using it and it is uh it's going very well so

0:17:37far.

0:17:38Uh I have a question for you.

0:17:39Out of curiosity, I I don't mean for this to sound like a gotcha,

0:17:42so if it does I apologize.

0:17:44Why are you using Overcast as the business account and not setting up like

0:17:48a bespoke business account for each of your apps?

0:17:50And the reason I ask this is because last I remember thinking about this,

0:17:53which admittedly was years ago, uh, it was very, very difficult to like unravel

0:17:57a Apple developer account such that you could sell just one of the apps

0:18:02within the account.

0:18:03And the rule of thumb, many years ago, was to make an account per

0:18:07app.

0:18:07So this way if you ever sold the app, you would just sell the

0:18:10entire account and that was that.

0:18:11So I I I'm just curious why overcast radio LLC and not something else.

0:18:16The main reason why so first of all, like what you were just saying

0:18:19about like the difficulty of transferring apps um that has gotten more capable and

0:18:24easier over time.

0:18:25I'm sure there are still pains in the butt about it or limitations about

0:18:29it, but like it used to be like, you know, the as you said,

0:18:30like if you ever touched iCloud, it would not you'd never be able to

0:18:33transfer an app ever.

0:18:34Oh yeah, forgot about it.

0:18:35I think that I don't think that's true anymore.

0:18:37I could be wrong, but I don't I don't think so.

0:18:39But

0:18:40at this point I realize like no one's coming around buying my apps.

0:18:44Yeah.

0:18:44It's these these are my apps.

0:18:46They're gonna stay in my app.

0:18:47And like if somebody wants to, you know, give me a hundred million dollars

0:18:49for an app.

0:18:50We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

0:18:52I don't think it's gonna happen personally, but you know, I anyway, so uh

0:18:57the reason I it was kind of part of my my year of efficiency

0:19:00uh theme this year that as I was as I was um preparing to

0:19:04launch Unforgetful, I ha I faced the same dilemma.

0:19:07Like do I launch it under Overcast Radio LLC with my Overcast developer account?

0:19:12Do I start a new LLC with a new developer account?

0:19:14Like do you know what do I do there?

0:19:16And as part of the year of efficiency, um I I went through the

0:19:20process of having overcast uh having having the LLC take an S election on

0:19:26the taxes, um which um everyone seemed to think I was allowed to do

0:19:30given the conditions of it and it added some complexity.

0:19:33I I have I have like ha you know a payroll provider that I

0:19:35pay myself through now and stuff.

0:19:37So there's some cl complexity, but it saves a lot in in taxable income.

0:19:40And so the question arose, like okay when unforgetful was going to launch, should

0:19:44that just be part of that same entity to take advantage of that and

0:19:49all of the other kind of established infrastructure I have around Overcast Radio LLC

0:19:55being an entity with a developer account that makes apps.

0:19:59And I I decided to just do it because the advantages of setting it

0:20:03up separately were reasonably small and unlikely.

0:20:07And the advantages of rolling it all in it turns out to be huge.

0:20:10Because I've done it the other way.

0:20:11I've I used to have my full city account that had its own apps

0:20:14on it.

0:20:14Um like that was like my Fire Island Driving app.

0:20:16I had it over there.

0:20:17Like it was just kind of a pain to have everything be separate.

0:20:21And when it's on one developer account and one LLC,

0:20:25so much stuff just becomes simpler, easier, more efficient.

0:20:29Things like, you know, I only have to have one app figures account.

0:20:32Then that covers all the apps.

0:20:33You know, I only have to like when I have relationships set up with

0:20:37like you know, invoicing systems for hosting providers or like I you know, I

0:20:41hired uh you know designers and stuff like I already have everything set up

0:20:46for that and the bank accounts are set up and the credit card is

0:20:50set up and everything's already set up.

0:20:51The hosting accounts are set up.

0:20:53The domain registration, like everything is all set up for that.

0:20:57And it just made it a lot easier to just have a combined to

0:20:59one.

0:20:59So overcast Radio LLC, while it is not the best name for an entity

0:21:04that contains these three completely unrelated apps, it does make a lot of sense

0:21:09logistically speaking and tax-wise and legally and financially and everything else.

0:21:13And no one cares what the company name is anyway.

0:21:17We are sponsored this week by Granola.

0:21:20Let me tell you something.

0:21:21It is long documented on the show that my memory is trash.

0:21:26And this has pretty much always been the case as I get ever older,

0:21:29it gets ever worse.

0:21:30That's just the way of the world.

0:21:31And if you're in a situation like me where you have anything less than

0:21:35photographic memory, then you might want to have the uh really robust notes for

0:21:40your work meetings.

0:21:41And if you want that, then it'd be great to have some sort of

0:21:45tool on your side to help you take those notes.

0:21:48Well, granola is an AI-powered notepad that makes your meeting notes useful.

0:21:52It captures what happens in your meetings and turns it into clean structured notes

0:21:55with decisions and action items pulled out made easy to find.

0:21:58Let me build on that a little bit.

0:22:00Structured notes, you say, Casey?

0:22:02Why yes.

0:22:03This looks a whole heck of a lot like Markdown to me, and that's

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0:22:07So I did a call with Syracusa a couple of months ago to try

0:22:11this out, and it genuinely went really well.

0:22:13Uh granola took some really robust notes, not too much, just the right amounts.

0:22:17It's very Goldilocks, and I mean that in a complimentary way.

0:22:19And what's great is for each of the line items that you see, you

0:22:23can drill in and get a transcript summary.

0:22:26And then it will also pull out poll quotes of exactly who said what

0:22:30with speaker attribution, who said what in the exact words they use that led

0:22:35them to the summary that then led them to the line item.

0:22:38It's really, really well done.

0:22:40And it's really great if you're like me and you want to be present

0:22:44in the moment and not worry about taking notes, but also not lose track

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0:22:49It really did work spectacularly well, and I was really, really pleased with it.

0:22:54So, once you try it on a first meeting, it is hard to go

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0:22:59You can try granola totally free.

0:23:01Head to granola.ai slash ATP.

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0:23:11Uh to get your time back, go to granola.ai slash ATP and try it

0:23:15on your next call.

0:23:16Thank you to Granola for sponsoring the show.

0:23:21All right, let's talk MacBook Pro with ProLED XDR display.

0:23:25And Allison writes, I got super excited when I heard you say that the

0:23:2914-inch ProLED MacBook Pro is Two-tenths of an inch thinner, but it's two-hundredths of

0:23:34an inch thing thinner.

0:23:36And uh you John, you added in our internal show notes: the 14-inch is

0:23:41a half millimeter thinner and the 16-inch is eight uh.

0:23:44eight millimeters thinner.

0:23:47So there you go.

0:23:48Our bad.

0:23:48Yeah, I just wrote the wrong number in the uh notes last time.

0:23:51I guess I missed the zero and I just read the wrong number.

0:23:53So my bad.

0:23:54It is not as much thinner as you would hope.

0:23:57But it is actually half a pound lighter.

0:23:58Oh by the way uh regarding the ProLED XDR MacBook Pro, what a long

0:24:03name.

0:24:03Um, I don't understand why didn't they just i I I I know they

0:24:07wanted a separate name because they still had the other ones and that's fine.

0:24:11Why didn't they just call it the MacBook Pro XDR?

0:24:14Yeah.

0:24:15Yeah.

0:24:15Anyway.

0:24:16ProLED, Marco.

0:24:19I know I'll get used to it.

0:24:20Don't forget about display.

0:24:21What do you mean XDR?

0:24:22I don't know what that means.

0:24:23You have to tell you.

0:24:24You have to include the width.

0:24:25Anyway.

0:24:25Um But I actually canceled and reordered it because again, year of efficiency.

0:24:31Two things that helped a lot.

0:24:33Number one, New York has a sales tax exemption for computers that you buy

0:24:37if they're primarily used to make software available for sale.

0:24:41And I qualify for that.

0:24:43So I got tax free on that.

0:24:45And then also after you know, when John you asked me during the show

0:24:49last week, oh, I'm what am I doing with the old one?

0:24:51And I said, Oh, I'll probably, you know, trade it in or sell it,

0:24:53whatever.

0:24:54Well, after the show, I uh I typed in this show number into Apple's

0:24:57trade in thing and it offered like thirty six hundred dollars and I was

0:25:04like, Whoa, that's more than I expected.

0:25:07Um but it had a had like a glitch in the form.

0:25:09It wouldn't give me a gift card.

0:25:10It would it said like, you know, that much trade in or null gift

0:25:14card.

0:25:15Okay.

0:25:16Take the null, take the null.

0:25:17Yeah.

0:25:18It's like what does that apply to any price and it becomes null?

0:25:21Who knows?

0:25:21Better than nan.

0:25:22True.

0:25:23Anyway, so uh I was like, oh, but if I if I reorder it,

0:25:27it lets me apply it to the current order.

0:25:30And I checked prices on eBay for the same configuration.

0:25:33What you know, and you obviously you don't listing prices, you look at sold

0:25:37items, and the sold items prices were like thirty-one hundred to thirty-nine hundred, and

0:25:43Apple offered thirty-six fifty.

0:25:45I'll take it.

0:25:46So we'll see how that turns out.

0:25:48You know, I I haven't gotten the machine yet, so I haven't sent this

0:25:51one back yet, and they haven't trade-in and whatever else.

0:25:53But uh I would say if you are, you know, thinking about upgrading and

0:25:58going through this process, check Apple's trade-in values.

0:26:01They uh it was it was a s a very pleasant surprise how high

0:26:05that was.

0:26:06Moving right along, uh friend of the show, Guy Rambo points out with a

0:26:09screenshot uh that touchscreen map pro MacBook Pros have a toggle to completely disable

0:26:14the touch screen.

0:26:15Um in the same Cardener chat that I bring up many times, uh one

0:26:19of the three of us in there is uh well, two of us are

0:26:22the same age.

0:26:23One of them is a few years younger than than myself, and the other

0:26:26one uh yeah well at least younger in body, but very much old in

0:26:30spirit and he was whining and moaning about, oh, I don't this I don't

0:26:34want this.

0:26:34It better be able to be turned off.

0:26:35Well, if you are old in spirit, if not in body, uh, and you

0:26:39want to turn off your touch screen, I have great news for you, as

0:26:42Guy pointed out.

0:26:43There is a ex I think it's an accessibility option in touch called ignore

0:26:48touch gestures, and with the subtitle ignores gestures when using touch displays insidecar, and

0:26:53there is an on-offs toggle right there.

0:26:55Additionally, John, you made another discovery.

0:26:58Uh I saw a couple people report on this.

0:26:59Uh that apparently you can set it up so that pinch to zoom acts

0:27:03like like control mouse wheel or like uh control two-finger swipe.

0:27:07Like in other words, pinching anywhere on the screen will do the zoom thing

0:27:10for accessibility, which is nice.

0:27:12Uh Uh as opposed to like zooming within like the preview app or whatever.

0:27:16So for people who do want to touch the screen, that might be more

0:27:18convenient than the, you know, control two finger swipe or whatever you've been doing.

0:27:22Yeah, I use that all the time when I don't have contacts in, and

0:27:25it is very helpful.

0:27:26And I could see pinch to zoom or pin pinch to you know full

0:27:29screen zoom or whatever you want to call it being really helpful.

0:27:32Uh coming back to Gee Rambo, the glowing Apple logo on the new MacBook

0:27:36Pro models is controllable by software.

0:27:37It has a 25 hertz PWM frequency and per device calibration.

0:27:42Core brightness, which is the name of the framework, I guess, implements automatic brightness

0:27:46and controls the relationship between display and logo brightness.

0:27:49One interesting tidbit, the brightness of the logo is adjusted differently depending on the

0:27:52enclosure color.

0:27:54That's neat.

0:27:55So that bodes well for being able to control that uh using whatever private

0:27:58APIs that he's discovered.

0:28:00All right.

0:28:00With regard to keyboard marks on the screen, Keith Huss writes, The this, and

0:28:05we'll link it, microfiber keyboard dust cover has totally saved me from oily keyboard

0:28:09impressions on my twenty twenty-six MacBook Pro.

0:28:11It's a correctly sized, super thin microfiber cloth that you just closed up in

0:28:15your laptop over the keyboard.

0:28:16They also offer size for the 14-inch MacBook Pro.

0:28:18And uh it's something like two dollars on AliExpress.

0:28:21So not bad.

0:28:22I always get paranoid about putting anything on the the uh putting anything inside

0:28:26the clamshell laptop and closing it because there's there's so low tolerances.

0:28:30I'm afraid it's just gonna crack something or do something weird.

0:28:32But uh apparently Keith has had good luck with it.

0:28:34Yeah, I've seen people use these for years.

0:28:36I've never been tempted to use one, but I ordered one when I saw

0:28:40the message.

0:28:40I'm like, no.

0:28:41I because I the imprints are are pretty rough on my my 14-inch nanotexture,

0:28:46and like that's what I ordered an uh another 14 inch with nanotexture.

0:28:49I'm like, okay, I think uh I think the time has come for me

0:28:52to try this method.

0:28:53All right.

0:28:54Uh there is some dissension in the ranks.

0:28:57John, I can introduce this if you'd like, but I feel like it might

0:29:00be best if you take us through this.

0:29:01Yeah.

0:29:01I wish I had known about this last episode because it would have really

0:29:04uh colored my comments on the new MacBook Pro with ProLid XDR display.

0:29:09Uh but um yeah.

0:29:12So Jeff writes on the new MacBook Pro ProLED, the bottom corners of the

0:29:17screen are rounded.

0:29:18AppKit prefers to keep your window corners concentric with the display instead of clipping

0:29:22them.

0:29:23For content inside the window, you can use APIs like NSView layout region, UIView

0:29:27layout region, geometry proxy container corner insets and corner container corner uh offset to

0:29:33easily constrain your layout against the changing radius.

0:29:35And there is a video linked.

0:29:36We will link the Jeff's post and the video.

0:29:39Uh I would encourage both of you to look at the video if you

0:29:41have not, but and while I explain What's going on here?

0:29:44So, what Jeff is saying is that um the screen, the physical screen on

0:29:51the ProLED MacBook Pros, have rounded corners on the top and the bottom.

0:29:57Time was when Apple made screens that were rectangular.

0:30:00And then they started rounding the top corners on the laptops.

0:30:03And that

0:30:04was not great, but there was some precedent because look back from the original

0:30:09Macintosh.

0:30:09On the original Macintosh had a nine-inch CRT.

0:30:12And it was rectangular, okay.

0:30:14Um, but the menu bar had black pixels in the upper left and upper

0:30:20right corners that made the menu bar look like it had rounded top corners.

0:30:24It didn't the screen was just not drawing those, it was a monochrome display,

0:30:27right?

0:30:28So it was a white menu bar and they just didn't light up those

0:30:30pixels.

0:30:30If you play a full screen game or whatever, of course it would use

0:30:33those pixels, but when the menu bar was visible, it rounded them.

0:30:36And that's kind of what Apple was doing with rounding the corners of the

0:30:38display, although the radius was much bigger bigger in the modern age.

0:30:41But Apple wasn't just not drawing the pixels there.

0:30:44They would either not include those pixels in the screen or cover them with

0:30:48parts of the bezel or whatever.

0:30:50So you could never put a pixel in the corner of the screen because

0:30:53there was no corner.

0:30:53They rounded the top and bottom corners.

0:30:56And I didn't like that.

0:30:57But you know the menu bar's up there anyway and uh guy so if

0:31:00you if you play full screen video you're gonna miss the corners.

0:31:02It's annoying, but whatever.

0:31:04Now they rounded the bottom corners.

0:31:05Now they've gone too far.

0:31:06Too far.

0:31:08It's so terrible.

0:31:09Again, the physical screen does not have pixels.

0:31:12Like you can't see them.

0:31:13If they're there, they're covered, or maybe they're not there entirely.

0:31:16They've rounded the top and bottom corners of the screen on the pro lid

0:31:21laptops.

0:31:22And it's not a small corner radius.

0:31:24It's pretty big.

0:31:25You have to watch this video because the problem is let's say you have

0:31:29a window that has like they show like a sidebar with like a filter

0:31:32at the bottom of the sidebar where you can type things in to filter

0:31:34the sidebar or something.

0:31:36And you know, there's a corner radius on the window, because macOS 27 windows

0:31:40do have a rounded corner, but that corner radius is not as big as

0:31:44the physical corner radius on the screen.

0:31:46So if you take that window and move it down to the lower left

0:31:50corner.

0:31:50It's like, uh-oh, we're about to clip your UI because some part of your

0:31:55UI now is going to be hidden in the pixels that we refuse to

0:31:58sell you in the corner of your screen.

0:32:01And they're like, oh, don't worry.

0:32:02We've updated AppKit and UiKit and all these other things so that your app

0:32:06can detect when that's happening and squirm the damn controls away from the corner

0:32:12and also make the corner radius of the window bigger as it approaches the

0:32:16corner so it can nestle into the corner and shove the text field over

0:32:20all so that UI isn't clipped.

0:32:23Or they could just make a rectangular screen to show rectangular content on their

0:32:28rectangular laptops.

0:32:30This is so incredibly dumb.

0:32:32It just it boggles my mind.

0:32:34Someone thought this was a good idea and then someone said but but but

0:32:37what about when people they're not gonna be able to see stuff there?

0:32:39What if they have it like, oh don't worry, I've got a solution.

0:32:41This solution was not this is a terrible idea, we should never do this

0:32:44like no we can make the framework provide APIs so that the UI will

0:32:48squirm out of the way and the corners of the window will get rounder.

0:32:51But only one of the corners, I think.

0:32:52I don't know maybe it does all of them.

0:32:53I can't tell.

0:32:54The corner will get rounder and the text field will move out of the

0:32:57way.

0:32:57Someone should have stopped this and raised their hand and said, What what are

0:33:01we doing here?

0:33:01Like what is the purpose of screen?

0:33:04What why do screens exist?

0:33:06What what what are they there for?

0:33:07Are they there to show us the content that's on our computer or are

0:33:10they there to look cute?

0:33:12And And which has higher priority?

0:33:14So incredibly dumb.

0:33:15Obviously you can connect an external display.

0:33:17Who knows?

0:33:18Maybe their external displays are gonna have tennis ball size rounded corners, and anytime

0:33:21you bring UI up near it'll morph the sides of the windows so everything

0:33:25squishes over so they can have big rounds big round corners on their six

0:33:28thousand dollar Pro Display XDRs if they ever make another one.

0:33:31I am incredibly angry about this.

0:33:33This is so dumb and is also yet another reason for me to hate

0:33:36laptops.

0:33:37And I will link again in the show notes.

0:33:39We'll we'll link again in the show notes to uh uh what uh Martin

0:33:43Vicari's uh post about Reimar Servas' post about rounded corners and how bad they

0:33:49are and how they steal space and are stupid.

0:33:52It's like at what cost rounded corners?

0:33:55And the cost is incredibly high.

0:33:56All throughout the UI, not just the corners.

0:33:58Everywhere it's high, but like, oh but I just like it, it's cuter and

0:34:00they were too rounded in Tahoe, now they're less in Golden Gate, so I'm

0:34:04it.

0:34:04But now they're coming for the screen.

0:34:05Please just read these articles if you think round of colors aren't big deal.

0:34:09Who cares?

0:34:09It's an aesthetic thing.

0:34:10It's.

0:34:10It physically reduces the space you have to see content on your screen.

0:34:14In every window, in every toolbar, in every sidebar, and now in in the

0:34:18entire screen.

0:34:19I'm very angry about this.

0:34:21I had no idea.

0:34:24So dumb.

0:34:25So dumb.

0:34:26Honestly, like, why do they have to round them so much that it matters?

0:34:31Like the simple solution here is just have the standard window corner radius be

0:34:37s be s small enough that it could fit like a small thing in

0:34:41the corner.

0:34:41But like no when you're laying out content in a window, you're never putting

0:34:47controls or text labels At the very, very first pixel, like a near any

0:34:52edge.

0:34:53You're always spacing it in by at least five to twenty pixels or points.

0:34:58You could in like a CAD app that has like a bar along the

0:35:00bottom with lots of things, you could put it in the totally lower left

0:35:03corner.

0:35:03But I I will point out But nobody would do that.

0:35:05You'd you would always set it in by at least like five or ten

0:35:08points.

0:35:08At least Uh y like again, some apps really want to use every inch

0:35:11of the screen, especially like really technical apps that don't care how they look

0:35:14again like a cat app or three D app with a million text fields

0:35:17everywhere.

0:35:17But I will point out these are remember, these are the OLED MacBook Pros.

0:35:21One of the strengths of OLED is that you can turn off pixels and

0:35:24they're totally black.

0:35:25So guess what?

0:35:26Just make the screen have all the pixels.

0:35:28And if you want rounded corners, fine, don't those pixels.

0:35:31But oh if you have a problem, the solution is oh for the in

0:35:34this instance we have to light up the pixels because you shove the window

0:35:36in the corner like what you can have your cake and eat it too.

0:35:38You won't even be able to tell that the pixels are there because you

0:35:41just turn them off, right?

0:35:42There's no reason to physically not include those pixels on this incredibly expensive display.

0:35:48Do what the original Mac did.

0:35:50Include the pixels, just don't light them up and it will be invisible because

0:35:53it's black.

0:35:54So dumb.

0:35:56All right.

0:35:57Before John completely finishes crashing out, let's move on to the iPhone Duo.

0:36:01Uh, I feel like we talked about this at least in passing last episode,

0:36:04but the iPhone Duo will welcome you if you purchase it from an Apple

0:36:08store, and I think only in the US.

0:36:10And we had talked about I'd seen a couple of reports of this float

0:36:12by online.

0:36:13I did order one from an Apple store, picked up in an Apple store.

0:36:16I was the first person, I'm to pick it up in my Apple store.

0:36:19This did not what happen for me.

0:36:21I'd seen, and I don't have source for this, but I'd seen somebody say

0:36:24that they were asked if they wanted it wanted this personalization to happen and

0:36:29they had to wait like five minutes for you know magic to happen with

0:36:31that toast thing, whatever it's called, that magical box that they've come up with.

0:36:35Um but anyways, uh Luke Milani or Miani's video uh has uh uh an

0:36:41example of this and we'll put a link uh in the show notes, a

0:36:44timestamp link in the show notes.

0:36:45So you can see this, but sure enough in cursive it says you know,

0:36:48while it's opened, hello Luke.

0:36:50Uh and I kinda wish that this had happened for me just 'cause I

0:36:52think it's fun, but um but yeah, it's apparently not a hundred percent uh

0:36:56execu uh they they don't execute a hundred percent of the time.

0:36:59Yeah, I think it is that like the you know, the little toaster pizza

0:37:02oven where you put it in it or whatever, you would think like, Oh,

0:37:04they'll just put it on a server somewhere and it m you know they

0:37:06don't need to put it in a pizza oven they'll just give you the

0:37:07box and when you open it up it'll connect to the server and find

0:37:09out who you are.

0:37:10But the this at this point when you just open it up, it doesn't

0:37:12have a network connection.

0:37:14So we can't look it up on this this is like the literally the

0:37:16first thing that you see before it connects to Wi Fi, before it connects

0:37:19to cellular, before anything, just took it out of the box.

0:37:22So it has to be some kind of thing that they, you know, use

0:37:25their little we can reprogram your device while it's in the box.

0:37:29And they just, you know, put in your name or whatever.

0:37:32It's cool.

0:37:32Yeah, I think it's it's a fun little tweak.

0:37:34I have not seen it on um either of the two duos I've unboxed.

0:37:39Um but I also get the impression that Apple retail is you know, struggling

0:37:47to keep up, I'd say, with the with the realities of the duo launch.

0:37:50Like it's been a lot for them.

0:37:53Because of course, like, you know, the stock is, you know, very, very small

0:37:58volume.

0:37:58People are very highly demanding it.

0:38:00People are still lining up outside Apple stores every single day trying to get

0:38:05duos, mostly because there's a huge market for resale.

0:38:08But also like like I was in the city yesterday and I saw two

0:38:11duos in use by real by real people in the wild, which is now

0:38:16tied for how many times I've seen the iPhone Air used by real people

0:38:19in the wild.

0:38:20Uh but like you know, real people are also it isn't all just being

0:38:24resold.

0:38:24Real people are actually using it for themselves also and there's just no supply.

0:38:29So like I've I've heard it from the retail people that like, you know,

0:38:32i basically everyone.

0:38:33You know, we we mentioned um last week that I was using I I

0:38:36mentioned I was using one of those like stock tracking sites to alert me

0:38:38when they came in stock.

0:38:39Well everyone's doing that.

0:38:40And people are using AI agents to like buy them for them as quickly

0:38:44as possible when they do come in stu like the moment they come in

0:38:46stock.

0:38:47So like one I I I found I I've learned the the answer to

0:38:51I I mentioned last episode um that when I tried to pick up what

0:38:55when I picked up the two terabyte model that I the only one I

0:38:58could get, um I asked if I could if I could s uh change

0:39:01the payment method to my business credit card.

0:39:03See also year of efficiency.

0:39:05Um and and and I was told then that they couldn't well I found

0:39:09out from some birdies why they couldn't.

0:39:12So the way their system would work, it's already paid for when you go

0:39:15to pick it up, and so they would have to process it as a

0:39:17return and then have me rebuy it.

0:39:19But the moment it's scanned in, as a return.

0:39:23It goes back into available inventory for the store, and then someone else could

0:39:28grab it online.

0:39:30And they would because they have AI bots running and monitoring websites and everything.

0:39:34And so like they they they would not have a way to guarantee that

0:39:38they could resell the same one back to me a moment later because somebody

0:39:41else would probably grab it in the meantime.

0:39:44So that's the reality of what like the the kind of conditions and like

0:39:49speeds and everything that Apple retail is dealing with right now.

0:39:51So I'm guessing like once this all calms down, which could be weeks or

0:39:55months away, uh then I'm guessing they're gonna have more time to like apply

0:40:00these customizations and things like that you know that might be different and better

0:40:04then.

0:40:05Um for now, I I wouldn't expect this to be a common occurrence.

0:40:09Uh Donald Decodes is uh apparently a uh YouTube channel and they have a

0:40:14good explanation behind the nanotexture layer on the iPhone Duo.

0:40:18We'll put a link to that in the show notes.

0:40:19Yeah, they did a really good job of like explaining slowly and very carefully

0:40:24why this layer exists, how is this particular one designed, and how does it

0:40:27do the job that it does and how is it different than other things.

0:40:29Really good video.

0:40:30Highly recommended.

0:40:31Yep.

0:40:31It was very good.

0:40:32Uh then we have to bring up, I think we again made passing mention

0:40:35of this last episode, but now we need to really properly dig in.

0:40:38Uh Crackgate, or whatever you'd call it.

0:40:40Uh Andy Anako on the 24th of October.

0:40:42This is the day after release, if I'm not mistaken.

0:40:45Right, check out the newly minted iPhone Duo Subreddit.

0:40:48It's filled with posts from Happy Day One owners, as well as ones from

0:40:50people whose screens broke almost instantly.

0:40:52These busted duos are all broken in the same way, vertically along the crease,

0:40:55with a thick horizontal bar about two-fifths of the way up on the right

0:40:58hand side.

0:40:59Does doesn't this consistency imply an underlying design or manufacturing defect?

0:41:04Yes.

0:41:05JP Yes, it does.

0:41:06J.

0:41:07Peters at the verge, two days later on the 26th.

0:41:09Here's Apple's full statement from Apple's Alec Alec.

0:41:11Alex Kirshner.

0:41:13The response to iPhone Duo from early users has been incredibly positive, and we're

0:41:16seeing exciting things from developers who are rapidly updating their apps to take advantage

0:41:20of its unique form factor.

0:41:21We are aware of an issue impacting some the uh impacting the inner display

0:41:25on a small number of iPhone.

0:41:27Duo units.

0:41:27If users experience issues with their iPhone Duo display, they should contact Apple Care

0:41:31for a replacement.

0:41:33Yeah the statement was fine and like, you know, this this type of thing,

0:41:37like I I know people are mad, they're like, oh there's a problem and

0:41:40Apple's not do it's like they're gonna like if your thing breaks on the

0:41:43day buy it, Apple's just gonna replace it for free.

0:41:45Like it's it does not if they start doing this right after all your

0:41:48Apple care runs out, then that's a big thing and we need to make

0:41:51a big stink.

0:41:51But it right now I feel like it's just it's a bummer and it's

0:41:54sucky and Apple's gonna have to eat the cost of it or whatever.

0:41:57But as an owner it's mostly just like, oh I got unlucky and I

0:42:00got one of the bad ones, but you're gonna get a new phone.

0:42:03Yeah well see the problem okay so first of all

0:42:07of these problems are exacerbated by the shortages.

0:42:11Because these stores can't keep a lot of spare stock because they have they

0:42:17have no stock.

0:42:18So yeah, you're like it, you know, obviously if this happens to your phone,

0:42:22Apple's gonna take you, but you still have to, you know, either return it

0:42:26by mail or go to the store and wait for a new one.

0:42:30And if you go to the store, they might not have one that day

0:42:32or that week to give you.

0:42:34Yeah, no, it is a bummer.

0:42:35I'm saying it's not a bad thing that happens to you, but like all

0:42:37these stories, people bring out the pitchforce and they're like Apple knows about this

0:42:40and is denying it and is refusing to repair it.

0:42:42It's none of that is happening.

0:42:44It's it's a bummer and you know it's bad that like Apple's first phone

0:42:47has a problem.

0:42:47It doesn't surprise me though.

0:42:49Like honestly, it's a very difficult, complicated, fragile thing, and Apple's first timeout.

0:42:54Yeah.

0:42:54And here's the thing.

0:42:55I I don't think the evidence that we have so far shows that it

0:43:00is an inherent flaw to the design.

0:43:03It looks like, you know, based on people who have figured out like there's

0:43:06like there's one part inside the hinge that seems like it has a weak

0:43:09point and cracks at a certain point.

0:43:11But that seems like it could easily it could either be easily like tweaked

0:43:16halfway through through the build of this product or something.

0:43:19Or it seemed like it was just literally like a bad run of that

0:43:22part that has a weakness in it from a bad manufacturing run or something.

0:43:26Because it's not happening to every duo.

0:43:29You know, the reviewers that you know put it in bending machines thousands of

0:43:32times, like it never happened to them.

0:43:33So obviously it isn't happening to all of them.

0:43:36That being said, it is obviously a significant issue.

0:43:40But again, what does that mean?

0:43:42It does it mean five percent of them fail?

0:43:44That's a lot in terms of absolute numbers, but does it mean the one

0:43:47that you personally have will fail in this way?

0:43:49Probably not.

0:43:50But that is still a big issue for Apple.

0:43:53And they they do have to and will be dealing with it.

0:43:55And when they say a small number, that is PR speak.

0:43:59That is standard procedure.

0:44:01You always say it's

0:44:03a small number.

0:44:04Um, but it again, probably anecdotally, it is probably at least a reasonably small

0:44:10percentage.

0:44:11So this is a bigger problem than they are saying in all likelihood, but

0:44:15it is not the biggest problem in the world.

0:44:16And it and it does seem like it is not a guarantee that every

0:44:21duo will break this way.

0:44:23But we will see.

0:44:25Um And again, all of these problems are exacerbated by the short supply.

0:44:29Once the supply gets better, maybe they can, you know, maybe they iron out

0:44:34some of the manufacturing issues that might be causing this flaw to happen.

0:44:38Maybe, you know, obviously repairs and replacements would get easier to do and faster

0:44:42to do.

0:44:43So that will that will re that will kind of heal all wounds like

0:44:46as volume goes up.

0:44:48Um I would expect this is probably gonna be widespread enough that I bet

0:44:54it gets one of those uh extended warranty coverage things they do where like

0:44:59they'll just cover it for free past Apple Care for a couple of years.

0:45:02Like it seems like it's that scale of problem.

0:45:05So again, not every unit, but it's certainly a lot of them.

0:45:09So w you know, stay tuned for that.

0:45:11Like in in one year from now, when all of their stock Apple Care

0:45:14plans expire, I bet this issue still gets fixed for free.

0:45:18Yeah, we'll see if it ends up being a manufacturing defect or design defect

0:45:21or whatever, but that's the thing to worry about.

0:45:22Not happening anything that happens like on the first batch that they made on

0:45:26like day one or whatever, like you figure they'll address that.

0:45:28It's the problem is a year from now.

0:45:30If screens are breaking, like this a year from now, now you have a

0:45:32serious problem.

0:45:33Now you need one of those programs.

0:45:34Now there's a class action lawsuit.

0:45:36Like that's where things get serious.

0:45:37But day one, the first one's off the assembly line.

0:45:40Um, it doesn't mean that this has a problem.

0:45:42And yeah Apple's never gonna tell what the percentage is.

0:45:44They're not gonna tell you that's so that's all you'll find that out in

0:45:46the class action lawsuit.

0:45:47But uh But like I guarantee I guarantee you it's higher it's higher than

0:45:52they're trying to make us think, but it's being the end of the world.

0:45:56But I I I do think this will end with that outcome.

0:46:00I think it will have a class action lawsuit.

0:46:02I think it will have an extended service bolton or whatever those are called.

0:46:04Like I think those things will happen.

0:46:06But for for a given iPhone duo owner, we don't know like what how

0:46:11likely is it that your phone will break in this way at some point?

0:46:14That is it doesn't seem like it's super high right now.

0:46:16Well there's some complications to that we'll in a second, but first we for

0:46:19the one person who did try to figure out what the problem was, or

0:46:21has a theory anyway.

0:46:23Right.

0:46:23So uh Terrence O'Brien at the Verge writes, YouTuber Curious Haggy was able to

0:46:28reproduce the cracked screen during some durability testing of the iPhone duo.

0:46:32We'll put a link to that YouTube video in the show notes.

0:46:34And that's one where it's like like uh this is where they're all breaking,

0:46:37the line is only the same plot place, uh mine broke in the same

0:46:40way.

0:46:40I opened it up, I looked underneath the part where that line was, and

0:46:43lo and behold, a piece of the hinge cracked, and it just was free-flowing

0:46:47and loose.

0:46:47It must have cracked and flung itself up against the back of the screen,

0:46:49which hits it in exactly that spot, and it's like, okay, that I believe

0:46:53that's how their phone broke, because there's a literally a broken piece of metal

0:46:58right under the part of the screen that broke.

0:47:00A that metal shouldn't be broken, and B smoking gun, it's right under it's

0:47:05right underneath the the place where the screen got damaged.

0:47:07But does that mean that's how they all have broken?

0:47:10Because I haven't seen the other ones opened up.

0:47:12So it's a good theory.

0:47:13Uh but there's more to it.

0:47:14Now we get to our friend uh I don't know what this person's Is

0:47:17his name actually Jerry?

0:47:18I don't actually know.

0:47:19I I believe there was a recent video where he said his name isn't

0:47:23actually Jerry and Jerry was like a relative, like his grandfather or something like

0:47:26that.

0:47:27MKBHD uh referred to him as by name.

0:47:29I don't remember what it was though.

0:47:30Maybe it was Zach or something.

0:47:31Anyway.

0:47:32So this is uh Jerry Rig Everything, and there's a timestamp link in the

0:47:36uh show notes.

0:47:38But uh quote unquote Jerry uh peeled off the uh uh the matte layer

0:47:44on top of the screen and shows he he has two uh duos side

0:47:47by side, one with the covering and one without and you can see the

0:47:51difference.

0:47:52I understand people who are worked up about how muted the colors are on

0:47:57the inner screen and and and so on and so forth.

0:47:59But for me, as someone who does use this phone outdoors, including in strong

0:48:04sunlight, I I that and I'm not as discerning as like, I don't know,

0:48:08with John Syracuse, for example.

0:48:10I don't mind the matte screen.

0:48:12And in fact, I think I prefer having this because it's more useful outdoors

0:48:16in sunlight.

0:48:17So for my personal taste, I vastly prefer the way it the way it

0:48:21is the way it looks with the matte layer on top, but I absolutely

0:48:25concede and concede and can see that the color reproduction is definitely better without

0:48:32that matte layer on top of it.

0:48:33Yeah there's a different different background behind these two, so it kind of messes

0:48:36it up.

0:48:36But yeah, like if you like the the shiny one, you could in theory

0:48:39take off the matte thing.

0:48:40But keep in mind that the matte thing isn't just doing light diffusion.

0:48:43It's also literally protecting the screen.

0:48:45It's another layer of protection.

0:48:46So it serves that function as well.

0:48:48So I would not recommend this.

0:48:49And also I think this is the same video, or maybe it was one

0:48:51of the other reviews that explained like you can't put this, you know, app

0:48:55when Apple replaces this, they have to do it with like, you know, fraction

0:48:58of a fraction of a millimeter precision because of the way that like when

0:49:02you fold it, the the layers slide past each other slightly.

0:49:05And it's it's it's not the type of thing where you can say, ah,

0:49:08this is close enough because you literally fold it in half.

0:49:10So please don't try this at home.

0:49:12But that's that's this whole channel.

0:49:13Jerry Rig Everything, he destroys phones.

0:49:15Like that's that's the that's the deal.

0:49:16Yeah, that's a task best left to YouTubers, not us.

0:49:20Yes.

0:49:21All right.

0:49:21Uh also from that video, do not get sand in your duo.

0:49:25Uh Jerry Rig Everything puts a pile of sand on the duo and it

0:49:28would no longer close or open all the way due to sand getting in

0:49:30the hinge.

0:49:31Uh there I feel like there was another video that we that you linked.

0:49:35Relow it in the notes.

0:49:36Okay, there you go.

0:49:37Thank you.

0:49:37Uh where this is also spoken about.

0:49:39Sorry, I I watched a lot of YouTube videos this morning that John had

0:49:42come up with.

0:49:42Um so they all kind of blurred together.

0:49:44But anyways, yeah, sand or other small pieces of dust.

0:49:47Like on paper, the duo should be able to keep it out, given the

0:49:51IP sixty 67 rating?

0:49:5468.

0:49:5568, thank you.

0:49:56Uh but in reality, it seems perhaps a little less cut and dry.

0:50:00So that's that's the thing with the rating.

0:50:01So the the second video is from IFix It.

0:50:03IFix It did like that fine neon dust.

0:50:05We'll timestamp links to both the the the Jerryrig everything sand and the iFixit

0:50:09neon dust.

0:50:11Uh and Jerryrig is just destroying stuff and seeing how it works.

0:50:14And then iFixit with like opened it up and just forensic of like because

0:50:18it's like very brightly colored dust.

0:50:19You can see where it went and not where it didn't go.

0:50:22And here's the deal according to iFixit, uh their examination of it.

0:50:26It seems like, and this is a real kind of like loophole that Apple

0:50:30should address at some point, that the rating, IP68 or whatever it is, is

0:50:36about water and dust ingress

0:50:39into the part where the computer lives, not the hinge.

0:50:43Because the dust didn't get into the place where the SoC is, the place

0:50:47where the RAM is, the place where you know the dust and water didn't

0:50:50get into those areas, but it a hundred percent got into the hinge.

0:50:54That's so shocked when they get this rating because, like, how are they sealing

0:50:57the hinge?

0:50:57Because the the the screen like floats over this empty chasm.

0:51:01I'm like, oh, maybe there's just like a sealed area below where the like

0:51:05where the screen loops into there so it doesn't, you know, like maybe they

0:51:08sealed that up.

0:51:08Nope.

0:51:09That's where the hinge lives.

0:51:10Sand can a hundred percent get in there.

0:51:12And when it does get in there, say goodbye to your hinge.

0:51:15Like the the phone wouldn't even close anymore because the sand was in there

0:51:18crunching and crunching away.

0:51:20And this is part of the thing of like lots of people put lots

0:51:23of grit in the hinge and then they would try to open it and

0:51:25it's like it won't even open all the way.

0:51:27It won't go flat.

0:51:28And they'll just like, I'm gonna force it because I'm a YouTuber.

0:51:30I'm gonna force it.

0:51:31And they force it, and you know what happens?

0:51:32The hinge breaks and pokes the screen.

0:51:34So now, a year from now, when someone says, Look, I have the line

0:51:38on my screen, it's just like those day one people.

0:51:40Their thing broke when they took it out of the box.

0:51:42I have the same thing.

0:51:42It's a manufacturing defect.

0:51:44Is it?

0:51:44Or did you get a one piece of sand under that part of the

0:51:47hinge and then force it open and that one piece of sand caused that

0:51:50little thing to snap.

0:51:51I'm saying the people whose things broke out of the box, that's a manufacturing

0:51:54defect or something or a design flaw.

0:51:56But a year later, if you get sand and grit into your hinge and

0:52:01you force it open, and then your hinge cracks and then it hits your

0:52:04screen and breaks it in the same place.

0:52:06That I feel like is not really, you know, this it's not the same

0:52:10problem as the other thing.

0:52:11Like Apple should still replace it under Apple Care if you still have it

0:52:13or whatever, but like it's not a uh well anyway, the class action lawsuit

0:52:18will work out.

0:52:18Is it a design flaw that sand because this is true of all the

0:52:21folding phones basically?

0:52:22If you get sand in the hinge, it's game over.

0:52:24So do not take your iPhone duo to the beach.

0:52:27Just don't like it doesn't take a lot of sand to render this inoperable.

0:52:31And it's not like you can open it up and just I'll just blow

0:52:33it out like a Nintendo cartridge and it will be fine.

0:52:35No.

0:52:36Like, it's a very delicate piece of machinery.

0:52:39And although they sealed up the two halves, the two halves are waterproof and

0:52:43dustproof.

0:52:44The hinge is not part of the two halves and it is absolutely not

0:52:48dustproof.

0:52:49So do not get fine particulates anywhere near that hinge, you will be sad.

0:52:54Yeah, I and I think like and look, I'm not saying that Apple should

0:52:57design this to tolerate YouTubers pouring sand to it.

0:53:00They're obviously doing a a significant stress test, but I think this is worth

0:53:03thinking about.

0:53:04Like you know, are you the kind of person that has to frequently clean

0:53:07a bunch of dust out of the port from the bottom of your phone

0:53:10is there sand in the pocket of your jacket where you put your phone?

0:53:12Right.

0:53:13Or or just like like how often do you have to like clean dust

0:53:16from around your phone from your pocket or whatever storage situation you have?

0:53:20Are you frequently having to like, you know, clean under under the case ridges

0:53:23that you of your case or whatever?

0:53:25Like again, like putting stuff out of the port, pulling stuff out of the

0:53:27speaker holes.

0:53:27Like if you operate your phone in conditions or or store your phone in

0:53:32conditions where you're gonna have a lot of lint and dust and sand possibly

0:53:35like Yeah, the duo and any foldable is probably not a great choice for

0:53:40you, or at least you should probably get Apple care for the duration of

0:53:43the time that you're gonna have it.

0:53:45Um But uh it looks like, you know, look, Apple has done an admirable

0:53:50job sealing it up from the elements reasonably.

0:53:54But you have to still keep in mind it is still a folding phone.

0:53:57In the same way that like even if they do a really great job,

0:54:00you know, f if they do like a MacBook Pro and they try to

0:54:03seal it up from any kind of, you know, small ingresses, it's still a

0:54:07laptop.

0:54:08Laptops inherently have a bunch of entry points and are inherently very sensitive to

0:54:14certain types of things like dust and liquids where where your phone c is

0:54:18more easily sealed up.

0:54:19Well a foldable phone is gonna be less inherently sealable and inherently water and

0:54:25dust proof than a regular slab phone.

0:54:28That's always going to be the case because it has this incredibly intricate moving

0:54:32hinge that is constantly being open and closed throughout usage of the phone.

0:54:36I think they could seal a laptop because I think the laptop s hinge

0:54:39is sealable, but the way the screen folds into a little empty area on

0:54:43phones.

0:54:44Currently no one has come up with a way to either see the because

0:54:47you have two choices.

0:54:48You can seal that, which Apple has chosen not to do, uh or try

0:54:51to do, or you can make the mechanism tolerate, you know, tolerate

0:54:56dust coming into it.

0:54:57Like some way to to like get the dust out and let it like

0:55:00make all the gaps big enough that everything falls through it and doesn't get

0:55:02caught within it.

0:55:04Uh and with current screen technology sealing it seems to be impossible.

0:55:07But I laptops could be sealed if Apple really wanted to, because I think

0:55:11the the hinge on laptops is the type of thing like, you know, it's

0:55:14it's not there's no like OLED screen looping itself in and filling a cavity

0:55:19and and like a double edge hinge.

0:55:21Like the hinge inside this is so complicated.

0:55:22Look at the hinge on a MacBook Pro.

0:55:24It's simple and there's you could easily make that so no dust can get

0:55:27in there and if even if some does get in there, it's not going

0:55:29to break anything.

0:55:30So like but yeah, no one no one has any idea how to do

0:55:33it with folding with and and Apple's uh big achievement here is hey, the

0:55:36two halves of the phone are sealed, nothing's gonna get in there but my

0:55:39folding phone is useless to me if I can't or unfold it because the

0:55:42hinge is host.

0:55:43Yep.

0:55:44Right.

0:55:44So uh just to recap, like uh Jerry Rig Everything's video and then iFix

0:55:48It also puts some extremely fine dust in in a baggie and shakes the

0:55:53in in in the duo in a baggie and shakes it all up and

0:55:55it's also And then they opened it up and say found and say where

0:55:58did that dust go?

0:55:59And the answer is it all went in the hinge.

0:56:01Yep.

0:56:01Yeah of course.

0:56:02And not in the other parts.

0:56:03Like they opened up the other halves and like it didn't get in here

0:56:06but it did get in the hinge.

0:56:09We are sponsored this episode by Claude.

0:56:12I've been using Claude a lot more recently.

0:56:15And look, there's there's only so much I can say in a two minute

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0:56:18Let me just tell you s some things I've been doing with it more

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0:56:20So first I had it build me a financial dashboard.

0:56:23I had it build a connector using some some third party secure services to

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0:56:32I also have it now monitoring feedback channels for my apps so that it

0:56:36is now as much as it can find feedback and bug reports and then

0:56:40you know combing through X codes organizer and combing through emails and stuff, trying

0:56:44to figure out w are problems being reported, what are some new problems?

0:56:48Is there anything it can quickly go in and fix or make tests for

0:56:51so we can both do it together?

0:56:52It's been amazing.

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0:57:00Claude is the AI for problem solvers.

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0:57:07Whether you're debugging code at midnight, building a financial model, or strategizing your strategizing

0:57:11your next business move.

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0:57:13Uh Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter.

0:57:17Really, I'm just so impressed with how much it's able to do with relatively

0:57:21little, you know, specific guidance for me.

0:57:23You know, I've obviously I tell it, you know, tweaks I want to make

0:57:27here and there to the things it makes, but for the most part boring

0:57:29stuff like, hey, this user's reporting a cloud kit bug.

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0:57:33A few minutes later it's like, all right, I figured it out.

0:57:35Here is you want to pull request?

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0:57:39I have had such good luck having Claude handle work I don't want to

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0:58:14Uh Basic Apple Guy writes something that I did not notice, uh but I

0:58:18find fascinating.

0:58:19Uh the iPhone Duo lists two batteries in the battery health thing in settings.

0:58:25I'm looking at mine right now, and uh yeah, it's they look identical, same

0:58:30maximum capacity, same cycle count, same manufacture date, same first use.

0:58:34But sure enough, there's battery one and battery two.

0:58:37They're two different sizes.

0:58:38They don't show that on the screen, but they are two different, very differently

0:58:40sized batteries.

0:58:41Uh Steve Robles points out something that I've discovered probably since we've last recorded.

0:58:46Um, but I'm glad that I think John put this in the show notes

0:58:48because I would have forgotten to bring it up.

0:58:50Uh iPhone mirroring absolutely works on the duo, but just the outer screen.

0:58:54And as far as Steven and I can tell, there's no way to open

0:58:57it, if you will, to the inner screen, which is fine, but a bummer.

0:59:01And I hope that gets better over time.

0:59:03Sam Shepherd uh writes uh uh they they wrote directly to us, I believe,

0:59:08but I'd seen this floating around in a couple of places, and it is

0:59:11brilliant, and I've tried it and it works.

0:59:13Uh Sam Shepherd is unlocking the iPhone duo with th kind of his like

0:59:18index finger fir yo zerith to first knuckle area.

0:59:23It's very hard to paint a word picture about this, but imagine if you're

0:59:26looking at your palm and you're going from the place where your index finger

0:59:30meets your palm to the first hinge, the first knuckle.

0:59:34That's what Sam registered with Face ID, and I've since done as well.

0:59:37And it's not foolproof, but it works pretty well.

0:59:40And Sam has a really good and very short video on Mastodon where he

0:59:44talks about what he's done and shows a demonstration of it.

0:59:47Ah, this gets my to use a Merlinism official okie dokie.

0:59:50Uh this this was a great idea and it's working pretty well for me.

0:59:53I think this is lowering your security because there's just not as many lines

0:59:56and squirrels on that part of your finger.

0:59:58There's some.

0:59:59But not enough that I feel like that.

1:00:01I think that's drastically reducing the security.

1:00:03It's like when people registered like their dog's nose or their cat's paw on

1:00:06Touch ID when it first came out.

1:00:07Like you can do it, but I don't necessarily recommend this.

1:00:10And I I put Sam Shepard's thing in here because I think he was

1:00:13the very first person I saw do this before all the other later articles,

1:00:17so I want to give credit where credit is due.

1:00:19Um and there's a picture uh in his post and you can see, you

1:00:22know, how he I I circled it in red in our show notes, but

1:00:25you'll I think it's like a video.

1:00:26It's uh you you just grab the phone around there and you push that

1:00:29pad of your finger against touch ID and it unlocks.

1:00:32But go look at that pad on your finger right now and then look

1:00:34at the t your fingertip and compare the complexity and number of ridges and

1:00:38swirls.

1:00:39I feel like this is a secure downgrade.

1:00:42I I think Apple giving us like a little bit of security downgrade opting

1:00:48in.

1:00:49Like I it's a tricky question.

1:00:50Like should they allow us to have lower security on our devices?

1:00:55It's a like you can get me to answer that question both ways, depending

1:00:59on what day you ask me.

1:01:01Right, right.

1:01:01It's it's a tough decision.

1:01:02You know, one thing you could potentially argue is like, well, wouldn't this phone

1:01:06be better and maybe something also like an iPad non pro, like an iPad

1:01:11mini, wouldn't these be better with some kind of camera based face ID option

1:01:16that you could say, all right, well, for basic unlocking, let me just use

1:01:21the front camera if you don't have face ID hardware and just try to

1:01:25recognize me and maybe don't let me make purchases that way or s access

1:01:28sensitive data like on you know unlocking a password app or, you know, your

1:01:33secure notes.

1:01:34I think as the iPhone line goes on if they continue to have the

1:01:39duo and it continues to succeed, which seems likely, they're always gonna have the

1:01:44challenge of where to put face ID hardware in this.

1:01:46Like do you put only one on the outside?

1:01:47Do you put uh two entire sets of it one on the outside and

1:01:50one on the inside, so it can work the same way in both.

1:01:52I think that and you know, that's obviously a a physical space problem, it's

1:01:56a looking through the screen problem, and it's problem.

1:01:58So there's multiple large problems to trying to do that.

1:02:02So there's gonna be, I think persistent demand in the iPhone ecosystem for some

1:02:09alternative to touch ID, but where face ID in its full form can't or

1:02:14or won't reasonably fit.

1:02:16So I think they will probably be pushed by market demand to address this

1:02:20problem in some way.

1:02:21And so again, maybe what maybe that way is kind of what they're doing

1:02:25with um HomeView.

1:02:26Remember Home View?

1:02:27Um that like they have like this just camera based facial recognition and it

1:02:31it does provide like a lower level of security that gives you access to

1:02:35some things, but doesn't you access to everything without a higher level.

1:02:39That's an added level of complexity where is my phone completely unlocked or partially

1:02:43unlocked?

1:02:43I really don't think they're gonna do that.

1:02:45I think Apple's current solution is uh Apple Watch Unlock, which they love because

1:02:48it makes you buy another Apple device and they're like, we already have a

1:02:51solution.

1:02:51It's called Unlock with your Apple Watch and it's very secure.

1:02:54Yeah, but a lot of iPhone owners don't also own Apple Watches.

1:02:58And then they use Touch ID and then they train it on their cat's

1:03:00nose and lower their security.

1:03:02Right.

1:03:02Or well and also but th you can also make an argument that like

1:03:05when when all these mechanisms inevitably fail, which look both both Touch ID and

1:03:11Face ID fail all the time and require you to enter your passcode all

1:03:14the time.

1:03:15What happens?

1:03:16People have low security passcodes.

1:03:18It's like if they they eventually just give up and make their passcode one

1:03:21two one two.

1:03:22And that's like you look around at what like what do regular people do?

1:03:26It's that.

1:03:26It is the phone equivalent of sticking a post-it note with your computer password

1:03:31that your network admins made you you know made you set on the monitor

1:03:35or under the keyboard tray or something because you you know like security can

1:03:40only be so inconvenient or complicated before people will just route around it.

1:03:45So if the system is so cumbersome and annoying and limited that people are

1:03:49just having to enter the passcode twenty times a day and having the passcode

1:03:53possibly be simpler to make that easier, and that just increases the odds of

1:03:57other people guessing or shoulder surfing it, that's not actually surfing security.

1:04:01So it it is it's a very tricky question, but I think, you know,

1:04:05obviously the easier you can make good security, the better.

1:04:09And these things are always intention.

1:04:11But I do think the answer here is probably gonna be they probably need

1:04:16some kind of visual camera based face ID alternative for people who choose it.

1:04:21But I think if they did that, I think they'd make it unlock it

1:04:23fully.

1:04:23Like they don't make if you make your code one one, they unlock the

1:04:26phone fully, man.

1:04:27Like that's that's you that's this there is no like lower security mode where

1:04:30it's okay, you have a garbage passcode, so you're not really unlocking everything, you

1:04:33can't purchase with it, your pass your iClock keychain is unlocked.

1:04:37Nope.

1:04:37If you make that your passcode, it will unlock everything just like it has

1:04:40always done.

1:04:41So I I think they that's their way of kind of leading up to

1:04:43the user.

1:04:43It's like if you wanna make one one one one your passcode, uh good

1:04:48luck out there.

1:04:49Yeah, but like I that's not an amazing outcome for anybody.

1:04:53Like that, like if if what you what you need to do to make

1:04:56your phone convenient for you to use is to make your passcode one one

1:05:00one one because either touch ID is too slow or fails all the time,

1:05:04or you're trying to use face ID in challenging situations such as outdoors.

1:05:08Uh that's not actually serving anybody's security.

1:05:11And it that that that just becomes security theater at that point.

1:05:14It's like, oh great, I'll I'll jump through all these hoops you know that

1:05:17Apple's making me jump through, you know, because I I haven't entered my code

1:05:21and then like, okay, well my code's one one one one because i I

1:05:23have to enter it five times and it's really annoying.

1:05:26I know.

1:05:26But like the camera based ones, it's a real problem.

1:05:28Like that's why they make the home view so incredibly limited because someone can

1:05:31just print a picture of you from the internet and hold it up in

1:05:33front of the phone and that's that's they don't want to go that far.

1:05:35Like it the real question is like what's a threat model?

1:05:37If someone steals my phone can they unlock it?

1:05:39Well if they shoulder surf the code, I'm screwed even if my code is

1:05:41really complicated.

1:05:42So that's bad.

1:05:43Well, but look at look at Android phones.

1:05:44They most Android phones do camera based face ID and it's not like look,

1:05:48it used to be really bad.

1:05:49No one's that's true.

1:05:51But it used to be really bad when they first did it, but like

1:05:54it it is more secure now than it used to be.

1:05:56And it's less secure than Touch ID, I feel like.

1:05:59Maybe, but again, like uh maybe for a lot of people that would be

1:06:02fine.

1:06:03It's certainly better than one one one one.

1:06:05Yeah, I think uh Apple just needs to uh make the face ID hardware

1:06:08smaller and cheaper.

1:06:09Like they and put it in Macs for crying out loud.

1:06:11Like so that's that's the path they're traveling.

1:06:13I hopefully this will be a transient problem where it's like remember when face

1:06:15ID couldn't fit in our devices and now it's so thin it's in everything?

1:06:18That's where we need to go.

1:06:20One last piece of iPhone Duo and actually just follow up in general.

1:06:24Reachability is coming to the duo in 27.3.

1:06:27As per Julie Clover at Mac Rumors, reachability can be enabled in settings, accessibility,

1:06:32touch, reachability.

1:06:32It is on by default after updating to the iOS.

1:06:3527.3 beta.

1:06:36When the iPhone duo is closed, a short swipe left on the left edge

1:06:40or a short swipe right on the right edge will shift the outer display's

1:06:43content left or right.

1:06:44And there's a couple of uh images in that article.

1:06:48This is the first time Reachability has gone left to right instead of top

1:06:50to bottom?

1:06:51I believe so.

1:06:52I mean the duo has a lot of things that where the first time

1:06:55something is on the left or right instead of the top or bottom.

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1:09:06All right, let's talk topics.

1:09:08And we probably only have one kind of interrelated topic for tonight.

1:09:14Um, and that is we're gonna start with Phil Schiller's long exit.

1:09:18And kind of some rumors about Turnus' plans for Apple.

1:09:21This is from uh early September.

1:09:23And Mark German writes, Phil Schiller's exit is notable.

1:09:27The veteran executive ran the apps, App Store, and Apple events.

1:09:30The App Store portion alone generates an estimated $30 billion a year.

1:09:34Schiller is 66 years old and clearly wanted to have some semblance of retirement.

1:09:38But there's more to the story I'm told.

1:09:39Tarnis and services chief at EQ want to make even more money from the

1:09:43App Store and figure out ways to raise margins and squeeze additional recurring revenue

1:09:47from the platform.

1:09:48Schiller, on the other hand, seems to believe that such moves will only further

1:09:52irk developers and governments.

1:09:53While there was no internal blow-up or anything like that, it's something he wanted

1:09:57no part of.

1:09:58Let the let the record show that Phil Schiller is the only accu Apple

1:10:01executive to c only like active Apple executive to come on the show and

1:10:05is clearly the best one of them all.

1:10:06Obviously, well, so here's the thing.

1:10:08This is the the the the umbrella topic that we're talking about here is

1:10:11what kind of CEO will John Turnus be?

1:10:13This was I think from like not before he took over, but like right

1:10:17when he did or whatever.

1:10:17And it's it's German, so his sources are usually real.

1:10:21But on the other hand, it is kind of like

1:10:24rumors from inside the company if you know, who someone who claims to know

1:10:28the mind of Phil Schiller, it's like it supposedly this is a thing that

1:10:31Turnus and Ed EQ want, and supposedly part of uh Shiller doesn't want it,

1:10:35and he's connect the dots, and it's well he doesn't want any part of

1:10:38that and it's just it's you know, there are many logical leaps leading to

1:10:43this story of like, you know, Turnus and uh Q want to do this

1:10:47thing and Schiller because he's a good person doesn't and so he's leaving.

1:10:51And I'm not sure I buy that story but as one of the first

1:10:54sort of inside scoop story from someone who normally has, you know, actual real

1:10:59inside scoops from Apple, um, having it say, Hey, your new CEO that you're

1:11:04all excited about, you know, one of the things that he wants to do.

1:11:07Squeeze more money out of the app store.

1:11:11Talk about the thing you do not want to hear.

1:11:13You're like, no, no, no, John, that's not you're supposed to we're you're new

1:11:19and you're supposed to Fix things.

1:11:22This is worse.

1:11:23This is taking a bad thing and making it wor I mean any cue,

1:11:26like whatever.

1:11:27We just like you know, isn't he adorable?

1:11:28He wants money from services, he loves services and goes to basketball games or

1:11:31whatever.

1:11:32But you're the new CEO and we didn't like what Tim Cook was doing

1:11:34to the app store and you come in and the first rumor we read

1:11:37about you is, Yeah, the App Store, we can squeeze more out of that.

1:11:41We need we need additional recurring revenue from the platform.

1:11:44It's like I hope I mean the Shiller thing is a sideshow.

1:11:47I don't I think Sheller's retiring because he's he's old and wants to retire.

1:11:51Like and maybe he does or doesn't, but he presided over the app store

1:11:54during lots of things that we disagreed with.

1:11:56And who knows what happens there.

1:11:57So I'm putting Schiller entirely aside and I'm saying I mostly discount the idea

1:12:01that he's leaving because he disagrees with what Turnus wants to do with the

1:12:04app store.

1:12:04I feel like that is not why he's leaving, but who knows?

1:12:08But I desperately want this rumor about what Turnus wants to do to the

1:12:12app store to be not true.

1:12:14I'm willing to believe Eddie Q wants that.

1:12:15I want turns to say, now now Eddie, let's not squeeze the developers even

1:12:20more because they already hate us.

1:12:22Yep.

1:12:23We'll see.

1:12:23I go I I don't love the sign of the sound of this, but

1:12:26we'll see if it's actually true or not.

1:12:28And this was September.

1:12:29I haven't heard about it since and If anything German occasionally gets wrong, it's

1:12:33like oh hearsay from inside the company who knows who the sources are and

1:12:36what agendas they have.

1:12:37Like this is not like there's a new product coming and here are specs

1:12:40and we'll know whether it's true.

1:12:41This is like interpersonal drama and the thoughts in the minds of executives that

1:12:45they're never gonna say out loud, but I'm keeping an eye on this.

1:12:48Does Turnus start turning the screws on the app store or turning them tighter?

1:12:53Because the screws are already there and they're screwed in pretty tight already.

1:12:56So I'm I'm watching this.

1:12:58I think the only thing that I would uh you know maybe be a

1:13:00little optimistic about here is

1:13:03Mark German has really good sources for facts and much spottier sources for reasons

1:13:13and stories.

1:13:14An interpersonal drama.

1:13:16Yeah, it and and look, and that's that stuff's hard to validate even for

1:13:19us after the fact.

1:13:20Like we like you when he says oh this product's gonna be released is

1:13:23gonna have a touch screen, blah blah like we can validate that after the

1:13:25fact is oh yeah, he was right.

1:13:26Look, German called that you know, two years ago, whatever.

1:13:29It's much harder for us to know, oh yeah, German called the fact that

1:13:33this executive fought with that executive or whatever.

1:13:34Like that's that's hard for us to know.

1:13:37And so it's hard to check this, but historically speaking

1:13:40that kind of stuff seems like it is either never verifiable or turns out

1:13:46to seemingly not be true, more often than his predictions about facts.

1:13:49Aaron Powell Although on this one what we'll do is just watch what Apple

1:13:52does Do they turn do they squeeze more money out of the App Store?

1:13:55Is that a tournamentist policy?

1:13:56We're not gonna know it today.

1:13:57We're gonna know it the time the rumor comes out in September, but it's

1:14:00yeah.

1:14:00The other thing is like

1:14:03Phil Schiller has been the head of the app store for most of this

1:14:08time, including all of the really worst of the screw-turning years.

1:14:14Like all all those years under Tim Cook that the app store was like

1:14:18basically going around like scrounging around for everyone's business model saying, Hey, you guys

1:14:21uh you just launched a new startup and you're not using in that purchase.

1:14:24Um, you gotta give us money or you're out.

1:14:27That was all with Phil Schiller presiding over the app store.

1:14:30Now, Phil Schiller ha wasn't and still isn't the CEO, so there's people above

1:14:35him who can overrule him.

1:14:36And we saw in some of those court documents that came out that that

1:14:39seems to have happened at some point for certain decisions around this.

1:14:42But

1:14:44it's we don't know how like if Phil is no longer doing this, are

1:14:48things gonna get only worse?

1:14:50Or might things get better?

1:14:52Because might some of the things that we not

1:14:55this m this is a lot of mixed verb tenses here.

1:14:58Might some of the things that we didn't like have been Phil's call?

1:15:03And maybe somebody else can change those.

1:15:06And then finally, my I think my final version of this that is a

1:15:09little optimistic is like John John Turnus is new to this role.

1:15:14He we don't know that much about him yet, but so far, we like

1:15:18what we see.

1:15:19And I think even though like even though I don't think I agree with

1:15:23Tim Cook on a lot of lot of the the actions he took towards

1:15:25the end, especially, it was obvious that Tim Cook is a pretty smart person

1:15:30who does things in a very considered way.

1:15:33And Tim Cook chose John Turnus.

1:15:35And it seems like a lot of people who we tend to think are

1:15:39pretty smart people who we agree with a lot, seem to support John Turnus.

1:15:44So the people who all work around him seem to think l widely, that

1:15:48he's a pretty good leader, a pretty good person and pretty capable for this

1:15:52role.

1:15:52So what that shows me is even if he's going into this with an

1:15:57idea like trying to squeeze the app store that we don't think is right,

1:16:01that tells all of that context suggests to me he can change his mind.

1:16:08Like he may we've all had ideas that we change our mind about.

1:16:12Look, I'm I'm an expert in this.

1:16:14Like

1:16:16I think he I think we can give these people more of the benefit

1:16:20of the doubt that they can learn they can try things, they can change

1:16:24their mind or fail or change course over time, until and unless they show

1:16:29us that they can't or won't.

1:16:31And some people do show us that.

1:16:32Some people show us that, oh wow, they the decisions they continue to make

1:16:36in this area continued to be terrible, like Tim Cook's engagement with Donald Trump.

1:16:41I think that was horrendous and is horrendous, and he never got better at

1:16:47that.

1:16:47Um and still probably still hasn't.

1:16:50So I kind of stopped you know, hoping for that there.

1:16:53But John Turnus is in many ways uh many of these issues a clean

1:16:57slate.

1:16:57We don't know how he's going to decide.

1:16:59So even if he said at some point, let's squeeze more money out of

1:17:02the app store, maybe in a year he won't think that anymore.

1:17:06We don't know yet.

1:17:07Um and I I'm willing because he is new and seemingly pretty good in

1:17:12a lot of areas, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt

1:17:15that like this probably isn't the be all end all if it even is

1:17:19true, which itself is a pretty big question mark.

1:17:22This is one of the downsides in the uh very smooth transition that they're

1:17:26all so happy and uh you know they're always Apple Apple executives are always

1:17:29saying how proud they are of their beautiful transition from Tim Cook to, you

1:17:33know, obvious because obviously again the the transition of Steve Jobs dying was not

1:17:36ideal and not on their time scale.

1:17:38And you know, it's just a tragedy, right?

1:17:39And so now it's well now we don't have somebody dying.

1:17:41We can actually plan for this.

1:17:42Let's do it well.

1:17:43But part of that plan and part of the plan of like not spooking

1:17:47Wall Street and whatever and like you know making it smooth and everything is

1:17:50that uh it doesn't allow the new incoming CEO to do what new incoming

1:17:57CEOs do in company Companies that are in trouble because Apple's not in trouble,

1:18:01right?

1:18:01But if you have a company that's in trouble and you do a CEO

1:18:04transition, always, always, not just privately, but also publicly, the new CEO comes in

1:18:09and says, Look, here's what I'm gonna do differently.

1:18:12Here's what I here's my vision for Acme Corporation.

1:18:16They have to because like that's their job.

1:18:18It's well the whole point is you wanted a new person to come in.

1:18:21What is your vision for this company?

1:18:23We're kicking out the old one for whatever reason probably because the company's in

1:18:27trouble, tell me it happens all the time with car companies because they're always

1:18:29perpetually in trouble, especially American ones.

1:18:31It's what's your new vision for, you know, uh General Motors or whatever?

1:18:34And they come in and they present their vision.

1:18:36Turnus is absolutely not doing that because when you're taking over for Apple and

1:18:40Apple is not in trouble, Turnus feels like his job is to not rock

1:18:46the boat.

1:18:46Everything's fine.

1:18:47It's exactly, which is like Steve Jobs is gone, but everything's gonna be fine.

1:18:51No big changes.

1:18:52Tim Cook didn't come in and say, I have a bold new vision for

1:18:55Apple and it's to make cars.

1:18:56Like he didn't say that.

1:18:57Uh yeah, it wouldn't have been a good thing to say.

1:18:59Uh and Turnus did not come in and outline his vision.

1:19:03And we're so used to seeing that when there's change in leadership.

1:19:06Not just in companies that are in trouble, but like in any kind of

1:19:08like big leadership change, like presumably the new leader is there for a reason,

1:19:12but Apple's idea is like, no, there's just there's just the institution of Apple

1:19:16and a steward who guides the ship and there's no difference of opinion or

1:19:20difference of strategy.

1:19:21It's just a smooth thing that, you know, don't worry about who that person

1:19:24is behind the curtain.

1:19:25It's somebody's there in charge, but it's Apple, you know, just sailing along.

1:19:29And that's not reality, but that's the face they try to give.

1:19:31So with a rumor like this we can't compare it to remember Turnus' bold

1:19:36new speech on day one where he said his vision for Apple?

1:19:38No, there was no such thing.

1:19:40He said the same word salad that Tim Cook has been saying for his

1:19:43entire career, which is like, oh, Apple's great and we're wonderful and it's a

1:19:45great company, and I love it.

1:19:46I love technology.

1:19:47It's like, okay.

1:19:49So in the complete absence of knowing what Turnus' vision for Apple is, unless

1:19:55it happens to be exactly the same as the vision that Tim Cook has

1:19:58been articulating, all we have are these terrible rumors.

1:20:00And like I hope to God this one is not true in any way,

1:20:03shape, or form.

1:20:04I I'm not out here hoping that he like thinks it and changes his

1:20:07mind.

1:20:07I'm hoping he never thought it, because boy, what a wrongheaded thing to think.

1:20:11Like what of all the things this if you had to pick what is

1:20:14the worst possible uh strategy Turnus could pursue when taking over Apple, I would

1:20:20say squeeze the app, squeeze more profit out of the app store would be

1:20:24really high on the list.

1:20:26So I'm just I'm just crossing my fingers that this is just BS.

1:20:29Sure hope so.

1:20:30I don't know.

1:20:30I don't I don't love it, but man, the services money is sweet if

1:20:34you ask Apple.

1:20:34So I mean services like oh yeah, by all means squeeze more money out

1:20:38of services, just the app stores.

1:20:40I don't know, it's like, well that's all services is.

1:20:42It's games and the apps.

1:20:43Like I get it, but just like go if you love services revenue, there

1:20:46are lots of places to get services revenue.

1:20:48I'm not against services.

1:20:50I've like, you know, do services better and get more people to pay for

1:20:53them and like I get it.

1:20:54But the app store specifically, that's just like poking a wound.

1:20:59Uh all right.

1:21:00Then continuing on, uh, let's talk about a different post from uh la later

1:21:06in September, also from German.

1:21:08Uh John Turnus is moving to accelerate product development, broaden Apple's range of devices,

1:21:12and create a leaner organization with a greater focus on engineering.

1:21:16The early ideas under consideration include relying less on traditional spring and fall product

1:21:20release schedules and eliminating some middle management positions to reduce the layers separating engineers

1:21:25from senior executives.

1:21:26Turnist has indicated that Apple must introduce products more quickly and become more experimental

1:21:31to remain competitive in the artificial intelligence era.

1:21:34There are cost-cutting efforts in motion.

1:21:36Turnus is also seeking new sources of revenue and ways to generate more money

1:21:39from existing products, especially as growth in the company services business slows.

1:21:44Turnus has advocated for a leader organization for years.

1:21:46While leading hardware engineering, he told employees during an all-hands meeting that Apple should

1:21:50hire fewer people, ask more of its existing engineers, and reduce organizational bloat.

1:21:54During a presentation, he showed a s a slide charting annual headcount growth and

1:21:58argued that the company should be accomplishing more with fewer employees.

1:22:02Turnis, Turnus, Services Head Ed EQ, and Chief Financial Officer Kevin Perek uh are

1:22:06also looking for ways for new ways to bolster revenue as growth in Apple

1:22:10services business decelerates and its App Store economics come under pressure.

1:22:15They have discussed launching new services and extracting more revenue from existing products and

1:22:19offerings.

1:22:19Meanwhile the cost cutting will continue for the company's upcoming swath of holiday parties.

1:22:24Some teams have been told they won't be allowed to bring plus ones for

1:22:26the first time in years.

1:22:27Oh no, not the bubble in Paradise.

1:22:30Not the plus one.

1:22:30All right.

1:22:31So this is a mixed bag.

1:22:32Okay.

1:22:32So this is the my summary of this one and the notes is more

1:22:35products, faster, leaner.

1:22:37So a couple things.

1:22:39The leaner thing.

1:22:41If Turnus was to give a public facing, you know.

1:22:44I'm a new CEO and here's my vision for Apple.

1:22:47This would be a the type of thing you might include.

1:22:49I think our organization has too much bloat.

1:22:52We need to be leaner like we were back in the old days when

1:22:54we were making, you know, great products.

1:22:56There's too much too many people, you know, just too many layers right?

1:23:00That is very bit often a problem in organizations.

1:23:02And Apple historically has uh tried not to be that.

1:23:06But any company over time, like you build up layers of management between things,

1:23:09and it just makes it harder to like steer the ship and usually the

1:23:12best products are done by small teams that are close to the like there's

1:23:15not like 17 layers of management between you and the CEO.

1:23:18Like that's not the formula for success.

1:23:20So that's a very cliche kind of like I'm gonna come in and clean

1:23:23house and we'll be a leaner organization.

1:23:25But here's the problem with that.

1:23:27Apple's reputation for decades now has been the company that already puts like three

1:23:34people on a team that other companies would put 300 on.

1:23:37Like that's their whole thing, is like, oh, you know, Twitter had like five

1:23:41hundred engineers working on like the search box, and Apple has like three people

1:23:44working on like this gargantuan new effort, right?

1:23:47Watch OS.

1:23:48Yeah, like just there's but you know, but like you joke about because Watch

1:23:52Wells doesn't get like it's a lot of development.

1:23:54A lot of their big projects have been very small teams.

1:23:57Like that's their whole thing.

1:23:58And maybe it feels like Apple has drifted away from that.

1:24:00But I look at this idea and I'm like, okay, so if there's too

1:24:03many like middle managers and people who aren't triputing by all means trim that,

1:24:07but like to make the teams smaller, have the teams actually grown to the

1:24:11point where it's a problem?

1:24:12Or is it like back in the old days, you know, we had two

1:24:14people who made the entire G4 cube, right?

1:24:16Like I I don't I I'm a little bit suspicious of us of this

1:24:19one 'cause I feel like yeah, again, I'm I'm not that I have anything

1:24:23against middle managers, but if you have too many of them, if there's like

1:24:26you know, you have four people doing the actual work and then seventeen managers

1:24:30before you get to the CEO, that's not a good org chart.

1:24:33So that should be changed.

1:24:34I don't know what the state of that is inside Apple.

1:24:36But the team sizes, everything I have heard from inside Apple is the team

1:24:39sizes are not out of control.

1:24:41If anything, everybody feels like they're under-resourced, that there's not enough people on their

1:24:45team doing what they're being asked to do.

1:24:48So I I could put this one kind of in the middle of like,

1:24:50uh, it sounds like a reasonable thing that a CEO might want to do.

1:24:53It's not ridiculous, but I worry that again, of all the things that Apple

1:24:57needs, smaller teams on implementing projects is maybe not it.

1:25:02And then the second part of this is more products faster.

1:25:05And this is a complicated one because I mean geez, we're just coming off

1:25:11of so many products have been announced just in September and October.

1:25:15Like this show has just been slammed.

1:25:17This is the the most Apple new Apple products I think we've seen released

1:25:21in the shortest period of time in the entire history.

1:25:23We have done this show.

1:25:24But every single one of these products was planned and scheduled and executed before

1:25:29Turnus was CEO, you know what I mean?

1:25:31Especially the home view, which is like a year old, right?

1:25:33Um, but on the other hand, he was in charge of hardware that whole

1:25:37time.

1:25:37So is this attributable to Turnus?

1:25:40It's certainly not attributable to Turnus' new uh ideas as CEO, but maybe he's

1:25:44taking his ideas from when he was head of hardware and saying, you know

1:25:47what I did when I was head of hardware?

1:25:48We're doing that, but more.

1:25:50That is plausible, but it is so it's hard for me to say like

1:25:54oh, he's already doing it, more products faster.

1:25:56I'm like, Well, he wasn't CEO for those, but he was the head of

1:25:59hardware.

1:25:59So I don't know.

1:26:00But like it seems like he would say he's already delivered on more products

1:26:04faster.

1:26:04Because we God, we have so many products and they're coming out faster than

1:26:08we could even cover on them on this podcast.

1:26:10Is that a good thing for Apple?

1:26:11It's certainly different.

1:26:12Like this whole thing about like I don't just want to do it in

1:26:15spring and fall.

1:26:15It takes us too long to make products.

1:26:17That I mostly agree with because I mean there's been I've been listening to

1:26:21um it's about to say twenty max for twenty money twenty twenty, but um

1:26:24uh design in California, uh Jason Snell and my Curly's podcast that I was

1:26:28on uh as a guest on one of their series, talking about how long

1:26:32it was.

1:26:33I mean, obviously there's the the stories like you know the iPod was conceived

1:26:36and shipped within a single calendar year, but lots of products back in those

1:26:39days of like the early 2000s, Apple, uh with the exception of macOS 10

1:26:44um were conceived, implemented, executed and shipped on incredibly short timelines.

1:26:49Whereas now we're like, there's a German rumor of a device that's gonna ship

1:26:53in twenty twenty nine and maybe it'll slip to twenty thirty.

1:26:56And it's just such a long wait.

1:26:57We wait years and years from the first rumors of the product that eventually

1:27:01it does come out exactly as it was rumored four years ago.

1:27:03And it's really?

1:27:04It took you four years to produce that?

1:27:06Whereas the old Apple would have done that in a year, a year and

1:27:09a half.

1:27:10So I do think there's something to that of like let's not not every

1:27:14product needs to be this multi-year slog where we just iterate on it forever.

1:27:18Like get stuff out, try things, be more experimental, ship more stuff, don't feel

1:27:22beholden to these specific schedules.

1:27:25But on the flip, side of that, can you imagine if Apple released products

1:27:29at the rate it it has released them in September, October, if it just

1:27:32did this all year long, year after year, it would we would just be

1:27:35buried in products.

1:27:36But at the same time, I think there is a lot of room for

1:27:39them to speed that up.

1:27:40Like uh we've you know, as you mentioned, like we've seen a lot of

1:27:43cases where you see some story come out where like, oh yeah, they've they

1:27:47you know, a good example of this would be like, you know, if some

1:27:49like camera airpods thing comes out, like or meta metaglasses like you know, we

1:27:53were all saying a couple years ago, like wow, they should really get on

1:27:56that.

1:27:56It seems like it's kind of a a growing market and then they just

1:27:59and it's like, Oh yeah they'll there are rumors like oh yeah they'll have

1:28:01that in in you know two years from now.

1:28:02It's like what?

1:28:03Like that it really takes them that long to make that kind of product?

1:28:06And then it doesn't ship and it's delayed for another two years and we're

1:28:08like like that's the worst.

1:28:09Like they actually ship, you're like, that rumor was true.

1:28:12It was uh four years ago.

1:28:13That was that but it just took them four years to put it out.

1:28:16But it is it you know, I I recognize it is a very difficult

1:28:19problem because first of all, they have high standards and they don't want to

1:28:22ship crap and we like them for that.

1:28:25But also, when they do ship a product, they need to make it usually

1:28:29in much higher volumes than a lot of the other the other manufacturers do.

1:28:32Not the home products, they should do that.

1:28:34Well that's true.

1:28:35But um and the other thing is like, you know, if they if we

1:28:38are telling them they need to release things faster, that does strain things like

1:28:41the software uh quality, which we don't want that either.

1:28:46Uh but we are also in an era now where the pace of technological,

1:28:51you know, iteration is pretty fast right now in the industry.

1:28:56A lot of that's AI driven, a lot of it's not.

1:28:58Um but things are getting quick quickly better, faster from everybody.

1:29:04And competition is getting better quickly.

1:29:07And you know, and of course AI itself, like you know, we can't ignore

1:29:10that.

1:29:10That's a huge part of it.

1:29:11Like AI, you know, both models and you know, products and features built around

1:29:16those models are getting better very quickly and this is a pace that Apple

1:29:23ha is not accustomed to and has not been able to meet for many,

1:29:28many, many years.

1:29:29Um so they do need to speed that kind of stuff up.

1:29:32And it is gonna be hard and it is gonna be messy and it

1:29:35is gonna be imperfect.

1:29:37But just in order to keep leading and being competitive in the industry that

1:29:42they're in, they do have to get a lot faster.

1:29:44And honestly they do need to get a little bit less careful with the

1:29:49types of products and product risks they're willing to take.

1:29:53I'm not saying make a bunch of spyglasses for everybody, but I am saying

1:29:58like try more things.

1:30:00Tim Cook's Apple was pretty conservative.

1:30:03Uh and and that served them well in a number of ways.

1:30:06You know, that's very good financially.

1:30:07It's very good for like the stock price.

1:30:09You know, you can be pretty it's pretty predictable, um, very efficient with inventory

1:30:14and stuff like that.

1:30:15But they didn't take a lot of like new swings under Cook.

1:30:20And the ones they did were sometimes really weird, like the car or the

1:30:24Vision Pro.

1:30:25I mean they took two big ones.

1:30:26The V Vision Pro and the car were Tim Cook's two big swings.

1:30:29One of them shipped, one of them didn't um and there's lots of small

1:30:32ones where Tim Cook took a lot of small swings of like, We're going

1:30:35to invest in a company that makes quartz critsels or micro LED displays and

1:30:39a lot of those are just like fizzled out or whatever.

1:30:41But they were it was not the type of thing of like, I've got

1:30:45an idea for a product, let's just ship it and try it.

1:30:47Because as you pointed out, like that's not hasn't been Apple's MO.

1:30:49And also Apple always always somehow convinces themselves, and they're mostly right most of

1:30:54the time, that like, look, if we make anything, we have to make millions

1:30:57of them.

1:30:58And so we it's harder for them to like, let's just try it and

1:31:03see if people like it.

1:31:04Because if they do and you didn't plan to manufacture twenty million of them,

1:31:08you're screwed, especially in the current like environment with like parts and everything.

1:31:12So you know, maybe this is not timing is not great to be more

1:31:16daring with the things that they ship because when you're Apple, like that's what

1:31:20people, you know, ding Apple for all this, like, oh look at this, this

1:31:22Android manufacturer, a framework laptop.

1:31:24Why can they do it?

1:31:25And Apple can.

1:31:25It's like they're gonna sell a hundred thousand of those.

1:31:28Apple's gonna sell a hundred thousand a day.

1:31:30So like it just becomes impossible to, you know, it's a whole different equation

1:31:35of like we have to pre-buy all these parts, we have to manufacture them

1:31:38all, we have to forecast demand, we have to make sure where they were

1:31:40right.

1:31:41Uh it's it's harder for them, it's a big company to do that.

1:31:43It's one of the disadvantages of being a a big company, but we'll see.

1:31:47Like the home view is arguably that.

1:31:50The rumored robotic home view is arguably that.

1:31:52Like there's lots of products that may actually ship that are weird and may

1:31:57be duds.

1:31:58Um and you know in in this recent rash of products, it's been pretty

1:32:04straightforward.

1:32:05It's like, oh, the new a new laptop, a new Macs, like the home

1:32:08view is the weirdest one, and that one was done a year ago.

1:32:11Um, so I I'm not sure what will come with this, but like the

1:32:15things I like about it the most are don't be beholden to the strict

1:32:19release schedule that always has to be spring and fall.

1:32:22When it's when it's done, ship it.

1:32:23Uh, you know, if you have an idea, put it out there.

1:32:26And maybe like just green lighting things within the company um, and being a

1:32:31little bit more daring about that and not like the I think Tim Cook's

1:32:35problem was, you know, he had a little bit of the everyone is asking

1:32:38him his entire career as CEO, when's the next big thing?

1:32:41When's the next big thing?

1:32:43And so he felt the need to try to make the next big thing.

1:32:46And it definitely wasn't the car, but that would you know that was a

1:32:48big thing.

1:32:49Wasn't the next big thing.

1:32:51Um, and then uh the Vision Pro, which was a big thing, turned out

1:32:55not to be the next big thing but it was always like we have

1:32:58to make these big bets.

1:32:59And then the times when he didn't where it's like, We'll just make some

1:33:01kind of weird wireless earbud, whatever.

1:33:03That wireless earbud turned out to be a huge business and he just side

1:33:07doored it.

1:33:08Like no one even thought like, Oh, this is the next big thing but

1:33:10honestly, it kinda was the next big thing.

1:33:13AirPods changed the world a lot more than the Apple car and the Vision

1:33:16Pro did.

1:33:17But like no one you know was paying attention to that one.

1:33:20So I'm hoping Turnus is is thinking we need to do more things like

1:33:25the AirPods.

1:33:26You know, not a big product.

1:33:28No one's gonna put it on the cover of Time magazine, but actually if

1:33:31it's successful, it'll be life-changing for a lot of people.

1:33:34All right.

1:33:35This is from a different post in the beginning of October.

1:33:37Tober, also German.

1:33:39Uh, this is quite a bit for me to read, so buckle up.

1:33:43During early conversations about taking the CEO role, Turnus questioned whether he was up

1:33:47to the challenge.

1:33:48I'm not you, Turnus told Cook.

1:33:50You do so many amazing things.

1:33:51Cook in his characteristically deadpan tone, replied, I know you're not me.

1:33:55His point was that Turnus needed to be himself.

1:33:58Aside, how how do you hear this?

1:34:01How do you hear this?

1:34:02Presumably this conversation was just the two of them.

1:34:04How does German know that this is to be true.

1:34:07It's obviously retold game of telephone, but can't you totally hear Tim Cook doing

1:34:10his like Tim Cook has his inside not his inside voice, but he has

1:34:14Tim Cook has the voice that he talks to the public with and then

1:34:17he has the voice that we hear tales of him talking internally in the

1:34:20company with.

1:34:20And I know you're not me.

1:34:22I see him saying with a totally unsmiling face in his internal company voice.

1:34:26Oh yeah.

1:34:27In recounting the story to employees, I guess there it is, Turnus describes it

1:34:30as a turning point.

1:34:31What Cook said w what Cook said that quote has really resonated and stuck

1:34:35with me quote, is that he spent his time as CEO where he added,

1:34:38quote, the most value for Apple, Turnus said, and I need to spend my

1:34:42time where I can add the most value for Apple.

1:34:45That idea, he said, has given Turnus the freedom to approach the role differently.

1:34:49There will be differences in where we spend our time, but the mission, the

1:34:52goals are the same.

1:34:54Turnus is largely leaving the company's financial operations to Chief Officer, uh Chief Financial

1:34:59Officer.

1:35:00Kevin Parekh, and its supply chain to Chief Operating Officer Sabik Khan.

1:35:04Instead, Turnus is spending considerable time with Chief Hardware Officer Johnny Shruji and hardware

1:35:09engineering leader Tom Marib, remaining deeply involved in product engineering.

1:35:14But I'm told he is also devoting substantial attention to another area that has

1:35:17long lacked a single overarching leader, design.

1:35:20Turnus already had some involvement with involvement with the design studio as Apple's hardware

1:35:24engineering, given the close coordination required between the two functions.

1:35:28Since becoming CEO, however, he has immersed himself in the industrial design and human

1:35:31human interface teams.

1:35:33Several people familiar with the department said he works hands-on in the studio several

1:35:37times a week, sometimes visiting multiple times in a single day.

1:35:41One of Turnus's first priorities was to restore the design studio standing within the

1:35:44company.

1:35:45The group had lost numerous employees to Ives firm, Lovefrom, as well as OpenAI's

1:35:50hardware team and other companies.

1:35:51That contributed to its diminished influence and credibility within Apple.

1:35:54The departures forced the company to promote junior designers and hire extensively from the

1:35:58outside to replenish the team's ranks.

1:36:00Many people inside and close to the company believed it should recruit an outside

1:36:03chief design officer to oversee the entire organization but I'm told no such search

1:36:07is underway.

1:36:08Apple instead made a significant effort during the launch of the iPhone Duo to

1:36:11portray Molly Anderson and Dye successor Steve LeMay as its design leaders.

1:36:14Turnus posed with Anderson in the new uh in the new phone while Anderson

1:36:18and LeMay helped introduce the device in a joint video.

1:36:21So at the time this was written, we hadn't had Turnus's first earning call,

1:36:25but on the first earning call, you saw an embodiment of the first part

1:36:28of the thing you just read, which is You know, Tim Cook was basically

1:36:31saying, Look, I spent my time on these particular things because that's my skill

1:36:35set.

1:36:36You should spend your time on the things that fit your skill set.

1:36:39And so Tim Cook was the operations guy, uh, and he would talk about

1:36:42operations stuff on the earnings calls and he he'd He knew it backwards and

1:36:46forwards, like this was his area of expertise is what he did as a

1:36:49job before he was CEO.

1:36:51And so there he was on the calls and he would talk about all

1:36:53this stuff.

1:36:53Turnus on the earning call brought on his CFO and his COO and just

1:36:58deferred to them and they answered all those questions because that's not his deal.

1:37:01That's not his area.

1:37:02Uh Gruber was pointing out on his site that when Jobs was CEO, he

1:37:05didn't even show up for most of the earning calls because it's like that's

1:37:07not my deal.

1:37:08Talk to the CFO, they'll still he just showed up when he felt like

1:37:10he had something to say.

1:37:11Maybe Turnus feels like he needs to be there again for like the Oh,

1:37:15there's no CEO, it's Apple gliding along smoothly.

1:37:17Tim Cook was on all the earnings calls.

1:37:19I'll be on all the earnings calls, but honestly, he doesn't need to be

1:37:22he has to be on this one because it's his first one.

1:37:24Obviously, you gotta show up or whatever.

1:37:25Like I get that.

1:37:26But like If if he's just gonna defer to CFO and COO to answer

1:37:30all the questions anyway, after he's after his like, hey, welcome, I'm the new

1:37:35CEO, whatever, like maybe after the first year or so, he can just not

1:37:37show up for them because that's you know, that's not his strength.

1:37:40That's he's not gonna be in there like saying, I let me tell you

1:37:43how you should manage your inventory or write contracts with suppliers.

1:37:47That's not his thing.

1:37:48Right.

1:37:49So the the uh you know, with Turnus retelling again, who knows when he's

1:37:53this is third hand like Turnus says that he talked to Cook and said

1:37:56this, and we heard what Turnus said from an employee who told Gurman who,

1:38:00you know, again, game of telephone.

1:38:01But he's basically explaining, um, I you know, I'm not gonna beat him in

1:38:05terms of where I spend my time, but I'll spend my time in other

1:38:08areas.

1:38:08And the second part of this story is German says, guess where he's spending

1:38:11his time?

1:38:12He loves the design studio.

1:38:13Just like Steve Jobs used to go down there and play with stuff.

1:38:15He's down there all the time.

1:38:16And that makes sense because he was the hardware head of hardware and I'm

1:38:19sure he would, like I said, he was working with them on designs of

1:38:21the hardware all the time.

1:38:23And that's where he's choosing to spend his time.

1:38:26And when I read this, I'm like, all right, you know, like maybe that

1:38:29is one of his strengths.

1:38:30It's part of his area of expertise.

1:38:32He probably has a good relationship with Johnny Suruji.

1:38:35He's trying to rebuild the design team.

1:38:36That makes sense.

1:38:37These are all again.

1:38:38If he was to give a speech about the his vision for Apple, he

1:38:41would be saying, I'm gonna rebuild the stature of the design team, because we've

1:38:45had a lot of people hired away to love from an open AI.

1:38:48Like it's all true.

1:38:48We know it's true.

1:38:49He's not making that speech.

1:38:50We just hear about it through.

1:38:52But that seems like a very sensible thing to do.

1:38:54But when I look at this whole big paragraph, I'm like all right, you

1:38:57know, I this makes sense, but I think of I immediately think of something

1:39:01that Marco already mentioned because it's probably already in his mind.

1:39:04And what I think about is, hey John, you know there's another part of

1:39:09products that Apple sells that is really in need of some attention and it's

1:39:14called software.

1:39:16I know he was the head of hardware.

1:39:19And hardware is great and continues to be great.

1:39:22And he should work with the industrial design team and work on new great

1:39:25hardware.

1:39:25Great.

1:39:26Thumbs up it's your strength.

1:39:27You've already been doing a good job at it.

1:39:29Go where your strength is.

1:39:31But every single one of those hardware products has software on it.

1:39:34And the software needs some help in many different ways.

1:39:39The software interface, the software reliability, just the things that the software does, choices

1:39:44about the software, and I get that's maybe not his strength, but one of

1:39:48the things that I would expect from the fictional never to be given speech

1:39:51about my vision for uh Apple as the new CEO would be what is

1:39:55your vision for hardware software integration and where the software should go?

1:39:59Not that software is out to sea or in a terrible situation, but most

1:40:03of the things these days I have complaints about Apple about are about software

1:40:07and it reminds me of when Johnny Ive was put in charge of everything.

1:40:11And he was at the time considered to be great at hardware although he

1:40:14got worse at that when his worst instincts kicked in.

1:40:17But he didn't know a damn thing about software and made some dumb decisions.

1:40:21And I didn't like it when he was in charge of software Alan Dye,

1:40:24terrible decisions, made bad software.

1:40:27Die's gone, I've is gone, new hardware guy comes in.

1:40:30It's the I've never even seen him mention software I'm not sure if he

1:40:33knows his products run software.

1:40:35Like, it's so important to the experience.

1:40:38He just assumes that we'll automatically be there and someone else will worry about

1:40:40it.

1:40:41But like that is a key thing.

1:40:43And you know, everyone loves Steve LeMay, and you know, we don't know anything

1:40:46about him other than what he's done it.

1:40:47Seems like he's improved macOS, so thumbs up on that.

1:40:49But like like LeMay kind of the software one, and Molly Anderson's kind of

1:40:52the hardware one.

1:40:53I don't know they're splitting up duties there or whatever, but I would love

1:40:56to see something about how Turner's recognizes that software is an important part of

1:41:01tobacco products and that it's in a bad spot right now and needs help.

1:41:06And, you know, an acknowledgement like, do you know what's wrong with Apple software

1:41:09now?

1:41:10Do you know how software is making the hardware look bad?

1:41:12Like Marco just gone talking about.

1:41:14Siri AI and all that stuff.

1:41:16Like you have incredibly capable hardware, incredible hardware devices that are let down by

1:41:22substandard software.

1:41:23Do you just think, oh, the software is there and it's give the talking

1:41:26points on it and say some, you know thing about how wonderful it is

1:41:29and how much better it is and how you know he's saying all this

1:41:31stuff about series, but it's like, but no man, it's just not it's not

1:41:34good.

1:41:35Like I don't expect him to know like the intricacies of like good user

1:41:38interface design and what's wrong with Mac OS and the stupid rounded corners and

1:41:41all that other stuff or whatever.

1:41:42But like even just something as simple.

1:41:43Is your most important product and your headlining features, Siri AI, it's not good

1:41:47enough.

1:41:48And that should be a fire under your butt.

1:41:50And I don't see a single thing about it in any of these stories.

1:41:52It's all going to concentrate on design.

1:41:54No, no, Turnus.

1:41:55Design is going okay.

1:41:57Concentrate on software.

1:41:58Well, maybe design is going okay because he has been present in it though.

1:42:02Like I I the the thing is, you know, when you're the CEO of

1:42:05of Apple, you can't just focus on any of these things.

1:42:08It's he I think it is good that he is involving himself in design

1:42:11so far that seems to be pretty successful for the product.

1:42:15And also he does also need to care about software a lot.

1:42:17Like that I I don't think I don't think we can make him like

1:42:20say, oh, you know, you shouldn't focus on design because you should be focusing

1:42:23on software.

1:42:24No, he should be focusing on both.

1:42:25I just want to see him go where the fire is, you know what

1:42:28I mean?

1:42:28Like, you know, steady as she goes on the things that are going well.

1:42:31But like again, with you know, this is just one story so we don't

1:42:34know.

1:42:34But of like if like if you're saying what's my vision for Apple, you

1:42:36wouldn't a lot of time talking about the things that are already going well.

1:42:38You'd be like, I'm gonna continue doing that stuff because it's great.

1:42:41But here's where, like again, if the new CEO comes in, here's where the

1:42:44problem is.

1:42:44The old CEO, we kicked him out because we had a problem with X,

1:42:47and now I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna fix it like say you're

1:42:49car maker and your cars are unreliable.

1:42:51You're like Reliability is job number one.

1:42:53You're not saying you're not gonna make, you know, cool sports cars or you're

1:42:57not gonna make the Corvette anymore.

1:42:58It's like Corvette's going great, but like reliability is a problem.

1:43:00A new CEO comes in.

1:43:01I'm gonna make our cars more reliable, right?

1:43:04Because that's where the problem area.

1:43:05It's not like he's gonna personally do it.

1:43:07I don't extend to personally design the software.

1:43:09But he's like, I'm gonna rebuild the industrial design team and I'm gonna do

1:43:12this.

1:43:12Like 'cause he's he's got it, he's directing the company.

1:43:15His vision for the company should be like, don't squeeze more out of the

1:43:19app store make developers happier, and fix the software.

1:43:22But instead it's like, I just I just really want to get more into

1:43:26industrial design.

1:43:27Like again, maybe this is maybe I'm missing it and this is really just

1:43:30a story about he's gonna spend his time, but I really want to see

1:43:33him say, I recognize where I see the fire.

1:43:35I see where the fire is, and I'm going to direct the company to

1:43:39put water in that direction while I go over here and play with the

1:43:41industrial design team.

1:43:42That's fine.

1:43:44All right.

1:43:45And then finally uh, this is yet more from early September from German.

1:43:50As part of the transition, Cook is moving out of his office in section

1:43:54seven of Apple Park and handing the space over to the new CEO.

1:43:57That means Tarnis is moving into the executive suite for the first first time.

1:44:00Before being named CEO, he worked alongside the hardware engineering organization in an office

1:44:04away from Apple's Center of Power.

1:44:06Software Chief Craig Federigi, another longtime holdout from the executive wing, remains with his

1:44:10team elsewhere at Apple Park.

1:44:12Tim Cook is getting a new office at Apple's campus, but the biggest indicator

1:44:15that Cook will remain heavily involved is his giant new pay package, which has

1:44:19raised eyebrows among Apple leaders.

1:44:20For the next year Cook will get a base salary of two million dollars.

1:44:23That's down from the three million he had as CEO, a salary that Turnus

1:44:26now receives.

1:44:27But the two million is still twice the typical base salary of senior vice

1:44:30presidents and members of the C suite.

1:44:32In terms of restricted stock units for twenty twenty seven, Turnus was given a

1:44:35target of fifty-five million on top of the salary and unspecif an unspecified bonus,

1:44:39while Cook gets forty-five million.

1:44:42These numbers will fluctuate based on how Apple's share price performs, but Turnus's compensation

1:44:46likely won't far off from Cook's pay in recent years as CEO.

1:44:49Cook's new package though was highly unusual for a chairman.

1:44:51Art Levinson, who was non-executive chairman before Cook took the executive version of the

1:44:56role, uh was paid less than five hundred and sixty thousand dollars by the

1:44:59company last year.

1:45:00And he got played.

1:45:01Yeah, but see here's here's the thing.

1:45:03If Tim Cook is still having to deal with Donald Trump and Xi Jinping

1:45:09and like i it's worth it.

1:45:10Like keep keep Turnus and the rest of the company isolated as much as

1:45:16possible from all of these awful world leaders that Tim Cook has to deal

1:45:20with.

1:45:20Fine.

1:45:20It's worth the money.

1:45:22Well, so I I do feel like this is kind of a again a

1:45:24situation that we didn't experience with Steve Jobs because he died.

1:45:28But like if you are the CEO of Apple for a long period of

1:45:32time and Apple is successful during those times, you attain a certain level of

1:45:35celebrity.

1:45:36Certainly Steve Jobs had a tremendous level, obviously, of celebrity.

1:45:39But even Tim Cook, the boring old guy, he was Tim Apple for so

1:45:44long that he has a certain amount of cachet as just as a minor

1:45:50celebrity in his own right.

1:45:52And r and practically speaking, he has knowledge and experience having run Apple all

1:45:57these years.

1:45:58So if he's not literally leaving the company, which he is not, and you

1:46:02want to keep him around, You can't be like, okay, now that you're not

1:46:05CEO anymore, you're gonna get paid by your senior vice president.

1:46:08You're like I'm Tim Freakin Cook.

1:46:09If you want me to stay at the company, you're gonna pay me like

1:46:12Tim Freaking Cook, especially as Mark Boy, especially if I have to do the

1:46:15same BS I was doing before four and deal with all the pol politician

1:46:19stuff because you know that's a thing that I you know whatever whatever like

1:46:23he's been doing it and he's you know apparently not gonna make Turnus do

1:46:26it and Turnus is probably ill suited to it and whatever like it's terrible

1:46:29and we all hate it but like if he's gonna be there doing that

1:46:31if you wanna

1:46:33you have to pay him like this.

1:46:34Now, with Turnus moving to like the big CEO suite thing, like it's interesting

1:46:39that both he and Federigi were like, uh, you know, we're men of the

1:46:43people, we don't go in our fancy offices.

1:46:45I I hang out with the rank and file people and stuff like that.

1:46:47And you might think that's like an act or whatever, but like a lot

1:46:51of a lot of CEOs do this.

1:46:52Like I don't have a big uh executive suite.

1:46:55I'm down there in the cubicles alongside with the workers.

1:46:57But But I my read on Federigi is that's just the kind of person

1:47:01he is.

1:47:02Like it's not an act.

1:47:03You know, like you don't do this, oh you've been doing this act for

1:47:0620 years.

1:47:06Like it's not an act.

1:47:07That's who he is as a person.

1:47:09He wants to be down there with the rank and file people get Getting

1:47:13things done, nerding out, doing all the stuff.

1:47:15He is the still the big big wig executive and everything, but he wants

1:47:18to do that.

1:47:18And Turnus apparently was like that too.

1:47:20He wanted to be with the hardware team so I do wonder if Turnus

1:47:22is like, uh, I gotta move into the fancy CEO suite 'cause it's expected

1:47:26of me because I'm the CEO of the one of the biggest companies in

1:47:29the world.

1:47:29Like I can't be in a cubicle with the team or what they don't

1:47:32even have cubicles.

1:47:33Whatever.

1:47:33The open the weird open ceiling they have, I have to be in the

1:47:35CEO thing.

1:47:36But then Tim Cook gets his own little minor CEO wing because they're like,

1:47:40I'm I'm not leaving.

1:47:41They they gave me a big pay package and I'm still here to ride

1:47:44this sucker out, presumably until Trump is gone, or who knows, maybe even after

1:47:48that.

1:47:49And it this whole thing does make me think about what is the what

1:47:54is the dynamic in the relationship in there?

1:47:56I think it's probably healthy based on Turnus' retelling of that story of like,

1:47:59look, Tim Cook doesn't wanna do this, you know, he le he left of

1:48:02his own accord.

1:48:03Don't want to force Tim Cook out.

1:48:04He decided when he wanted to leave.

1:48:06He left on his own terms.

1:48:07Presumably he is doing what he has decided he's gonna do, and he wants

1:48:11to hand it over to Turnus.

1:48:12He wants Turnus to be successful.

1:48:14He doesn't do everything.

1:48:15He's like, Turnus, you do what you have to do.

1:48:16You're not me.

1:48:17Play to your strengths.

1:48:18I'll be over here in my supporting role until I feel like not doing

1:48:21it anymore.

1:48:21And in the meantime.

1:48:23I don't imagine Tim Cook, you know, coming to meetings and putting his ore

1:48:28in and being like, Oh, you know, uh what about this?

1:48:31What about this, Terrance?

1:48:31What about that?

1:48:32Like no, I he shouldn't even be in the room.

1:48:34He's like to the extent that they discuss it'll be like, you know, um

1:48:40counseling or like, do you have any advice for me?

1:48:43Or what do you think of that?

1:48:44But I picture I'm picturing it mostly as a one-on-one thing.

1:48:47Um I really hope that's the case because you can't be a new CEO

1:48:51again, like I said this all this at the time trying to transition.

1:48:53You can't CEO with the old CEO like breathing down your neck, like looking

1:48:56over your shoulder, like you're doing your work and Tim Cook is behind you

1:48:59going, Oh, what do you think about dotting that eye?

1:49:01What about crossing that T?

1:49:02It's like damn, could you go back to your wing?

1:49:04Like I'm trying to be CEO here.

1:49:06Like I don't think that's happening, but it is interesting that that like that

1:49:09that's the that's the situation they're in where they have essentially end up they

1:49:13mint celebrity CEOs.

1:49:15If you are a successful CEO of Apple, you will attain celebrity.

1:49:18You will attain knowledge and power.

1:49:20And if you don't

1:49:21leave or die, if you stay at the company, now you're like this

1:49:27celebrity in residence for however long you feel like being that, and apparently you

1:49:31also get paid forty-five million dollars in stock.

1:49:34Nice gig if you can get it, I guess.

1:49:36Uh I mean, I don't know.

1:49:37I I'm I remain I remain hopeful about having Turnus at the helm.

1:49:43I think there's certainly plenty of things to worry about.

1:49:45Um we would be at least slightly remiss uh to not mention the absolutely

1:49:50astonishing uh election results from yesterday as we record this.

1:49:54And here again, I remain hopeful.

1:49:56There's work to be done with regard to uh the absolutely ridiculous government that

1:50:01we currently have, but hopefully this is a positive sign and things will happen.

1:50:05Similarly, I feel like we have every reason to be hopeful right now with

1:50:10regard to Turnus and his approach to running Apple and hopefully it will continue

1:50:16to get better and better.

1:50:18But there's

1:50:20Turnus and everyone else at Apple does it.

1:50:22But I don't know I I think there's

1:50:25a both cases, but I am currently and personally really, really, really hopeful and

1:50:31enthusiastic in both with both with regard to fixing our absolutely broken government and

1:50:37fixing a occasionally broken Apple.

1:50:40I was a little bit more hopeful before I learned about the lower rounded

1:50:43corners on the new MacBook Pros because Oh my gosh, John.

1:50:46Because that was Turnus.

1:50:47Like he was head of hardware when that product was designed and implemented.

1:50:50And this is exactly the blind spot that I'm afraid he has, which is

1:50:53that he doesn't know what good, you know, design is when it comes to

1:50:56like the operation of not not just like as a physical object in a

1:51:00beautiful piece of sculpture and like the circuitry and everything, but just that like

1:51:03that you should never do this.

1:51:04This is a bad dumb decision.

1:51:06Like the same way all the bad, dumb decisions in Tahoe, like why Alan

1:51:10Dye had to go, or in my opinion, is that he just made bad

1:51:12decisions and made bad software.

1:51:14This is a bad hardware decision, and it was done under his watch, and

1:51:17like he should know that's bad.

1:51:19He should know it's he should fix it, but it's not like someone else's

1:51:22thing.

1:51:22He he that he owns that.

1:51:23He was head of hardware when that product was designed and implemented.

1:51:26No one else was forcing him to make those damn rounded corners at the

1:51:28bottom.

1:51:29He did it himself.

1:51:29I know I'm atching way too much to that, but it's exactly what my

1:51:32fear is.

1:51:33It's exactly what my fear is.

1:51:34It's like this is the exact blind spot.

1:51:36And and the reason it annoys me so much is this w has historically

1:51:40been a traditional strength of Apple, that they know what good design is.

1:51:44And and we talk, you know, it's reason he's CEO is because they do

1:51:47so well with the hardware as hardware objects and as implementations like the low

1:51:52power uh socks with amazing, you know, performance, incredible reliability.

1:51:57Every they make a really good iPhone.

1:51:59Phone and they ship millions and millions of them and they're good products year

1:52:02after year.

1:52:02It's amazing, right?

1:52:04But there's more to the products than the hardware.

1:52:06And this is this is my main concern.

1:52:07And at this point, we have nothing to go on except for bad decisions

1:52:10that were made under uh when Tim Cook was CEO.

1:52:12I'm not gonna blame Tim Cook for the rounded corners.

1:52:14I'm mostly blaming Turnus, but uh but now we have things to watch because

1:52:18like I said at the top of this, we're do not get and never

1:52:21will get that speech of Turnus' bold new vision for Apple.

1:52:24All we can do is just watch what the company does over the next

1:52:28several years and then back solve.

1:52:30But uh I thought this set of rumors about so what supposedly people are

1:52:34thinking inside Apple was a it's all we get.

1:52:37And so it was at least worth discussion and we can I'm sure we

1:52:40will revisit this after Turnus' first full year or maybe his second full year.

1:52:45I'm willing to give him a lot of runway to figure it out and

1:52:47to transition and to fully take on this new stuff and maybe to wait

1:52:50for Tim Cook to leave in a couple of years, but uh I do

1:52:54think he has his work cut out for him.

1:52:56I think I am encouraged because it seems like he is engaging with products

1:53:02already within the company so much more than Tim Cook did.

1:53:06And and you know

1:53:09yes.

1:53:09Like that Tim Cook didn't engage at that level Well that's true because when

1:53:12we when he did engage it was terrible.

1:53:14But and look, Tim Cook, I think for for much of Tim Cook's uh

1:53:19reign, I guess, um he was what the company needed.

1:53:23Like he was really good at stabilizing things and scaling things and making everything

1:53:29just w flow better and work better and way more profitable and you know,

1:53:34he he was very good at a lot of that stuff.

1:53:36I think what the company needs now, after a pretty long time of that,

1:53:41is a product engaged person, like a product engaged leader.

1:53:44And from everything we've seen so far, Turnus is very engaged with the products.

1:53:49Like Tim Cook, I don't know if he ever used a computer, but Turnus

1:53:53obviously loves technology in a way that Tim Cook, I don't know that we

1:53:58ever saw that from him.

1:54:00You know, I I think Tim Cook liked optimizing the systems around him and

1:54:04doing his work and doing a good job of of the things he cared

1:54:07about.

1:54:08It just doesn't seem like computers were something he really cared that much about.

1:54:11Whereas Turnus, that's very clearly not the case.

1:54:13Turnus very clearly loved Loves computers, loves Apple's products, loves phones.

1:54:18Like he he's really into that stuff.

1:54:21And I think he's you know, he in the same way that Tim Cook

1:54:25had downsides, so will Turnus.

1:54:28But for this era of Apple, I think what they really need is a

1:54:32product CEO.

1:54:33And it does look like they finally have that again.

1:54:36When you say that though, I think product CEO and I think hardware product

1:54:39CEO, because I wonder if he when I see him visiting products, I wonder

1:54:41if the screens are turned on at all.

1:54:43And like the the th the thing, this German article gets into this is

1:54:46like for the stuff that he is not good at, like the Tim Cook

1:54:49stuff, he's got the COO, he's got the CFO, those people were there under

1:54:53Tim Cook.

1:54:54Like I feel like that's covered.

1:54:56Like those people were surely guiding those departments even when Tim Cook was CEO.

1:55:01And so I have confidence that they know what they're doing and can continue

1:55:04Apple's uh, you know, cla uh historical strength in their supply chain management operations

1:55:09and manufacturing millions of things.

1:55:11But on the topic of design, which was touched on, there is a leadership

1:55:16void there that is being filled by uh LeMay and uh Molly Anderson.

1:55:20So I see like there's some hope there.

1:55:22But on the software topic, leadership hasn't changed, Federigi is still there, and whatever

1:55:27problems existed under Tim Cook, Turnus does isn't addressing it, doesn't have the skill

1:55:33set, and isn't changing anything about it.

1:55:35So I don't have confidence that that is gonna get any better, even though

1:55:38he's new CEO.

1:55:39Like that's why I keep pulling calling out the gap.

1:55:41Because like I'm not worried about operations because Turnus is in operations.

1:55:44I'm not worried about hardware because Turnus isn't in charge of hardware anymore.

1:55:47Like I'm and I'm less worried about design because I feel like there's already

1:55:50been a little bit of a turnaround there with the new leadership.

1:55:52And I'm not saying this is all Federigi's fault.

1:55:55Maybe it's case that Federigi was being told to do things with priorities that

1:56:00you know tied his hands behind his back and made him ship things before

1:56:02they were ready or whatever.

1:56:04Like, but this is this is uh this is a thing I'm gonna be

1:56:07watching.

1:56:07I'm I'm maybe I'm more now that I've talked about this, maybe I'm worried

1:56:10about this on the App Store thing because honestly, like we're all being squeezed

1:56:12so much in the App Store already, like How much worse can it get?

1:56:15But the software can definitely get a lot worse.

1:56:17So I'm watching that.

1:56:18I think it is it is not inconspicuous how

1:56:25Craig Federiki has not been promoted to a higher title.

1:56:28Um where can he go from where he is?

1:56:30He's head of all software.

1:56:32He's C he's not gonna be CEO, so that's at the ceiling.

1:56:34He wasn't made chief anything though.

1:56:37Um there's there's now like a chief of hardware and there's no chief of

1:56:40software.

1:56:40I well the the chief of hardware is a keep Suruji at Apple title.

1:56:45Sure.

1:56:46I don't it's it's hard to to you know say there's any kind of

1:56:50confidence, but I I just just y if you like kind of read the

1:56:54tea leaves a little bit, I think the Craig Federigi era is near its

1:56:59end.

1:57:00I don't know how soon, but I'd be shocked if he was still in

1:57:04his role in four years.

1:57:06I don't agree with that at all.

1:57:08Somebody remind us.

1:57:09Somebody take that somebody put in a reminder.

1:57:10Why don't you write it down the calendar because I'm not willing to bet

1:57:12on that?

1:57:13But here's the thing about Federigi.

1:57:14I his strengths have never he's never been the user interface guy.

1:57:17Like he's a software guy in the sense of like the nitty-gritty parts of

1:57:21software.

1:57:22And my impression is that to the extent that he has failed at low

1:57:26level software stuff, it has been mostly forces outside of his own control in

1:57:30terms of when things have to be shipped and, you know, bad decisions made,

1:57:34like, you know, the whole AI thing can't pin on him because Tim Cook

1:57:37hired the what's his name from uh Google and tasked him with doing the

1:57:41stuff and took it all away from Federigi and said, We've hired a Google

1:57:44guy and he's gonna do it all and don't you worry about that.

1:57:46And Federigi had to come in and clean up the mess later.

1:57:49And so I don't.

1:57:50Like I know a lot of people blame Peter E for things, but I

1:57:52never picture him as like, oh, I know what user interfaces should look like.

1:57:55And the problem is who has had that job?

1:57:58When I've had it, it was bad because he was bad at software.

1:58:01And then Die had it, and it was bad because he was bad at

1:58:03software.

1:58:04And now LeMay's got it and maybe that's the solution, but it's just like

1:58:09I I don't there you know when Steve Jobs was there, he was it

1:58:12basically.

1:58:12He he, you know, and he made bad decisions too, but at least he

1:58:15had good taste and We had like I I don't know what the gap

1:58:18is.

1:58:18Like there's never been a celebrity named C level executive who we can say

1:58:22that person is responsible for the past few decades of Apple Software being good.

1:58:26Because honestly, of the past few decades, Apple Software has not been hot.

1:58:29It's not been that good.

1:58:30Right.

1:58:30The the heyday of how great it was and how you know, and and

1:58:34to be fair, the software in the duo was amazing.

1:58:37So talent still exists for doing that.

1:58:40Like, you know, again, within the constraints of the hardware which is a whole

1:58:42other thing, but like I don't think anyone says, Hey, could you think of

1:58:45a better way to design the software that is on the duo given that

1:58:48you can't change the physical form factor?

1:58:50I think they knocked it out of the park.

1:58:51So talent still exists for that, but there's not there's not a C level

1:58:55executive name who like point to that person and say, They're why Apple software

1:58:59is amazing.

1:59:00Because it's not amazing and there is no person for that.

1:59:02And I just hope, I mean, maybe it'll be Steve LeMay someday or whatever,

1:59:05but like it's not Federigi, it's not Turnus, and it definitely wasn't Ive.

1:59:09I mean just looking at Apple.com slash leadership, the very top tier is Turnus,

1:59:16CEO, Eddie Q, senior vice president, Craig Federigi, senior vice president, Dre uh Jaws

1:59:22Jaws, senior vice president.

1:59:24Yeah, uh Jennifer News said senior vice president, dear Joe Brian senior senior vice

1:59:27president.

1:59:28The only chiefs are CFO, COO, and Suruji does have hardware officer, but I

1:59:34concur with John on this.

1:59:35That was we've got to give him throw him a bone, otherwise he's gonna

1:59:38bounce.

1:59:39And I don't think Federiki is in need of that kind of a uh

1:59:43I don't know what word I'm gonna want it.

1:59:45He wants to be have his desk with everybody else.

1:59:47And he can't be promoted unless he becomes CEO and that didn't happen.

1:59:50So this is it for him.

1:59:51I I couldn't agree more.

1:59:52And I don't think he's upset by that personally.

1:59:55Like I have no I have no way of knowing, but the vibe I

1:59:58get, especially, you know, talking to the handful of people I know in Apple

2:00:01and in software at Apple, I don't get the vibe that he is like

2:00:04clawing his way into chief software, you know, pr uh uh chief software officer

2:00:10or what have you.

2:00:10Like I I I really think from everything I can tell, he's

2:00:14yeah he's such a nerd's nerd and he's not like he hasn't uh he

2:00:17doesn't have the the delusions of grandeur that he has the greater vision for

2:00:20Apple user interface across all its products.

2:00:22Like that's not his thing at all.

2:00:24And so and that it needs to be somebody's thing, but it's never been

2:00:27his.

2:00:27And we can blame him for like unreliability of the software that's shipped and

2:00:30stuff like that and bugs that don't get fixed but I don't blame him

2:00:34for like I don't blame him for Tahoe man.

2:00:36Like it's it's not on him.

2:00:38I I mean I I we don't know.

2:00:40From the outside it's hard to know who's responsible.

2:00:42We just know the products they ship, blah blah blah.

2:00:44But yeah, it's uh maybe my impression of him is wrong.

2:00:47Who knows?

2:00:47Maybe there are I know that we the reason we bring this up is

2:00:50there are a lot of Federigi uh detractors out there and they all write

2:00:53to us and say, Why don't you Rigi is?

2:00:55And for me it's because I don't actually think he's bad.

2:00:58He's just narrowly focused and limited and I think he knows that he's narrowly

2:01:03focused and limited and I don't think it's his job to make sure Apple's

2:01:09user interface is good across the whole company.

2:01:11All right.

2:01:12Thank you to our sponsors this episode.

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2:01:43Thank you everybody so much, and we'll talk to you next week.

2:01:49Now the show is over.

2:01:51They didn't even mean to begin.

2:01:54Cause it was accidental.

2:01:56Accidental.

2:01:57Oh it was accidental.

2:01:59Accidental John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

2:02:04Cause it was accidental.

2:02:06Accidental Oh it was accidental.

2:02:10And you can find the show notes at ATV.fm And if you're into Mastodon,

2:02:18you can follow them at C-A-S-M.

2:02:22E-Y-L, I S S, so that's K C Liss, M-A-R-C-O, A-R-M, D-N-T-Marco Armin, S-I-R-K-C,

2:02:34U S A-C recusa, It's accidental accidental they didn't mean to accidental accidental tech

2:02:45podcast solon

2:02:49marco you have Two iPhone duos now?

2:02:51Yeah, I have a quad.

2:02:52No, I just I put them next to each other.

2:02:55Uh no, it's the it's the iPhone Ultra.

2:02:57Um I I was able to snag a right-sized one.

2:03:02I got the 256 uh today.

2:03:05So I have returned the two terabyte monster.

2:03:08Um and I have finally moved into it as my phone.

2:03:14Like I didn't I didn't do that with the other one because I'm like

2:03:16I'm I really want to return this while I still can.

2:03:19Um if I can save twelve hundred dollars.

2:03:21Um Gravy.

2:03:231400 after tax, I think.

2:03:25But anyway.

2:03:26Um so I finally moved into it as my phone.

2:03:29And I I only have a few hours of using it as my phone

2:03:33so far.

2:03:34I think I might hate it, but I I want to give it some

2:03:40time.

2:03:40How how are you with yours so far after a little more time, Casey?

2:03:45Um I think everything I said last week sticks.

2:03:48Uh I don't I wouldn't say I've had really many epiphanies other than I

2:03:52would like to reiterate that I was devastated to lose face ID and it's

2:03:58been fine.

2:03:58Like I would still prefer face ID, but it's been fine.

2:04:01Well, it's been fine with Apple Watch Unlock.

2:04:04It's been or it's been even good with Apple Watch Unlock.

2:04:07With just touch ID, it's been fine.

2:04:09Um, but I t always have an Apple Watch on, so it's been an

2:04:12issue.

2:04:13Uh the one thing that is really starting to drive me nuts, not enough

2:04:18that I plan to switch back to my 17 Pro as my daily driver,

2:04:21but it's nuts.

2:04:23The cameras.

2:04:24The cameras are legitimately not great.

2:04:26And I don't understand how anyone survived with an iPhone Air.

2:04:29I really don't.

2:04:30And I mean, to be fair, not many people.

2:04:32It's also fair.

2:04:34Also true.

2:04:35Um I desperately missed the 8X.

2:04:38Like I was at uh Declan's football practice this this evening and I would

2:04:42have loved to have been able to zoom more than 2x.

2:04:45Would have been great, but I can't.

2:04:47Um I really, really, really am having fun with this though.

2:04:52I really enjoy it.

2:04:53I do not feel the outer screen is a complete waste like so many

2:04:57people seem to.

2:04:58Um I have been flipping back and forth between in and out, but I

2:05:01will but I would say easily half, maybe as much as three-quarters of my

2:05:05use of the phone is on the outer screen.

2:05:07Uh uh so far, I really like it.

2:05:09I was listening to I wanna say it was Connected, where um Mike and

2:05:14Steven were talking about using their duos and how they felt it was extremely

2:05:18conspicuous and they were like, I'm putting words in their mouth, but the the

2:05:21takeaway I had was that they were like uh uncomfortable or embarrassed to use

2:05:25it, particularly in like open mode.

2:05:28And I d I do not care.

2:05:30I don't care at all.

2:05:31Like I was way more uh nervous about using AirPods when they were brand

2:05:35new than I am using this.

2:05:36Like I do not care.

2:05:38And nobody seems to very much care either.

2:05:41I don't know if that's because I don't metropolitan area.

2:05:44I or or maybe people all the the people I'm know I'm a freaking

2:05:47dork, but one way or another, um I I I haven't had any of

2:05:52the issues with that with regard to like embarrassment or anything like that.

2:05:56Or maybe I'm getting older and more comfortable in my old s in my

2:05:58own skin.

2:05:59Who knows?

2:05:59Um but in any case.

2:06:01I plan to stick with this as my daily driver.

2:06:04Uh however, I think there are definitely going to be times, for example, I

2:06:08don't know, if I go to a concert sometime this month, just pulling that

2:06:12one right out of my bottom.

2:06:14Uh there's gonna be times that I will probably dual wield and I will

2:06:17probably bring both the duo for the camera or for excuse me, for the

2:06:22phone bits, and because that's the only one with like a cellular connection, but

2:06:25I my current thinking is I will also bring my 17 Pro for the

2:06:28purposes of using the camera.

2:06:30I don't want to do that generally speaking, but in this case, I where

2:06:34I won't have Erin next to me where I can just steal her phone.

2:06:37Uh that is probably going to be my plan.

2:06:40Yeah, I I think i I mean again, just trying it for a little

2:06:45bit.

2:06:45I think I really don't like touch ID, and I think I really don't

2:06:51like the the way it dynamics uh the like the the the pocket dynamics

2:06:55of it.

2:06:56Um oh interesting that doesn't bother me at all.

2:06:58I so far I'm I'm kind of hating the pocket dynamics, but um we

2:07:03will see.

2:07:04I I want to try to live with it for at least a few

2:07:07days before before I give up.

2:07:09I mean, I'm keeping it regardless because it is a very important test device

2:07:13for me now.

2:07:13Um I do also I would feel that embarrassment factor, like out like I

2:07:18don't think I'm going to want to open it up for a little while

2:07:20in public until you know, give it like a few weeks so that most

2:07:24people have already seen them around, you know.

2:07:25Like th that's going to be a short lived problem, but it is in

2:07:29the short term, like in the very short term, I think it is gonna

2:07:32affect me a little bit.

2:07:33Um, but I think ultimately I I don't I don't think I'm gonna stick

2:07:38with it, but I am very glad to be trying it.

2:07:40The other thing is like the app situation really is still as bad as

2:07:44everyone says.

2:07:45Like I, you know, as I was setting up apps on the new phone

2:07:48today, I'm like, you know, installing like You know, like the the app for

2:07:51my car and you know, the app for like my like the the the

2:07:54train app for the Long Island Railroad and stuff like that.

2:07:56And like it's n none of those apps are updated.

2:07:58None of them.

2:07:59They they all show in like the the little, you know, floating black box

2:08:02in the middle of screen.

2:08:03Like it's gonna be a while before those things are updated.

2:08:06Well but that's that's only really bad when you're on the inner screen, right?

2:08:10When you're outer screen, it's mostly fine.

2:08:13Um and the other thing I would say to go back just a half

2:08:15step, my ask of you, which I have no leverage in so you can

2:08:19completely ignore me, and that's perfectly reasonable.

2:08:21But my ask of you is I would say do give it at least

2:08:25a week, preferably two weeks, of being your carry phone.

2:08:29And and I don't have a calendar in front of me and I know

2:08:32that you have travel coming up in roughly in that time frame.

2:08:35So I wouldn't fault you if you didn't use this while you travel, although

2:08:39I would also argue it might be the perfect time to bring it, but

2:08:41that's neither here nor there.

2:08:43Um but I would say give it at least one full week, and preferably

2:08:47two full weeks, so you can really properly live with it for a while

2:08:50and see what you think more than just a few days.

2:08:52Because I think if you get through a whole week, my understanding of your

2:08:55weeks is that by and large they're fairly repeatable, fairly understandable.

2:09:01That's not the word I'm looking for, but you know what I'm saying, right?

2:09:03Like if you go through a full week, I think you'll probably get 80%

2:09:07of your like final answer.

2:09:09But I would argue give it a give it a second week.

2:09:12You know, basically treat y treat yourself as having your own two week return

2:09:16policy.

2:09:16Obviously you're not literally returning it, but you know, before you return to the

2:09:2017 or 18 or whatever you would be going back to, I would encourage

2:09:23two weeks and I beg of you one week just to see what a

2:09:27full week with this thing is like.

2:09:29And then again, after a week, but at le or at most two weeks,

2:09:32I think you're absolutely gonna know one way or the other.

2:09:35And if the answer is screw this, that's totally reasonable.

2:09:38I could make an argument why the iPhone Duo is a piece of crap

2:09:41and nobody should buy it.

2:09:42I currently am still completely enamored with it and amused by it, but I

2:09:47could make the argument either way.

2:09:48The very, very first day is probably the most uncomfortable time 'cause it's so

2:09:53different.

2:09:54And I I and I haven't really had a chance yet to love what

2:09:59it brings me.

2:10:00Like I I haven't found anything that's, oh my God, I love this on

2:10:03the inside screen, with the exception of like, you know, running Fineliner.

2:10:06And I have thought also, like, you know, Fineliner, I I I have high

2:10:09hopes for this app, and I'm very proud of it and very happy about

2:10:13it.

2:10:14It is not amazing on regular iPhones.

2:10:16Like it really is a a an an iPad and duo app, like i

2:10:20ideally.

2:10:22And so I have thought like I really probably should spend a lot of

2:10:26time with the duo just so I can really live the Fineliner lifestyle for

2:10:30a while and see like does that

2:10:33how how much can I lean into that and how does that make the

2:10:36app better and everything?

2:10:37Yeah.

2:10:38Yeah, like I said, I think a week would probably be enough, but I

2:10:41think it would be better if you gave it two weeks.

2:10:44Um and and even if you stop after a week, I would encourage you

2:10:48to occasionally use this uh even as an accessory iPhone in in cases where

2:10:55it could really shine.

2:10:56For example going to like one of your town meetings with the, you know,

2:11:00extracurriculars you do over at the beach, um, or bringing it, I don't know,

2:11:05traveling somewhere.

2:11:06Maybe you don't have it as the phone that that has cellular potential potentially

2:11:09and maybe you just like use the hotspot, but you treat it, you, you

2:11:12imagine it as your only phone or something along those lines.

2:11:16I think, I think that might be informative because, you know, in the case

2:11:20of like a town meeting or what have you, you could use, you know,

2:11:23fine liner.

2:11:24You could use it for all these things.

2:11:25Another thing that I found with the duo that I don't often enough, but

2:11:29I'm trying to train myself, similar to our Siri conversation, is going to up

2:11:34with two different apps.

2:11:36It's not the sort of thing that I would do all the time.

2:11:38And I haven't yet found an occasion where I want to do the I

2:11:41forget what they call it, but the lock the two apps together thing where

2:11:44you tap on the dividing line between the two of them.

2:11:47But let me tell you, on the occasions I do want to go to

2:11:51up, oh, is it amazing?

2:11:53It's so nice.

2:11:54It's so incredibly nice.

2:11:55Now, admittedly, I'm talking about five, maybe ten percent of my usage of the

2:11:59phone, but golly is that wonderful when I do that.

2:12:02Um so yeah, so much of this phone I'm still completely in love with

2:12:06and really enamored by, but absolutely without a shadow of doubt, everything relating to

2:12:11taking pictures kind of sucks.

2:12:13Uh I hate that when you're using the inner screen as a viewfinder, um,

2:12:18it's opposite what you would expect.

2:12:20And I think Ruber in particular is made of the case.

2:12:22Yeah, the orientation is because the because the camera's sideways.

2:12:25Right.

2:12:25So if you're holding this the physical div if you're holding the device in

2:12:29landscape.

2:12:30And you're using the camera, the image that you take with the camera is

2:12:34portrait.

2:12:35And I, from a technical perspective, I understand this, but I hate it.

2:12:40I absolutely hate it.

2:12:41And then if you want to take a landscape port, you know, photograph or

2:12:45video, you have to rotate the device to portrait.

2:12:49Additionally, while I totally get the idea behind using the device when it's open

2:12:56in order to take a selfie, which I do not irregularly with like family

2:13:00and friends, like say we're going out to a meal or something.

2:13:02I've done this with you a handful of times, for goodness sake.

2:13:04Recently even.

2:13:05With pizza.

2:13:07Always get the bigger pizza.

2:13:08Always get the bigger pizza.

2:13:10Um when I do this like first of all, the the slide to switch

2:13:14displays thing, I feel like it works sometimes, like annoyingly infrequently.

2:13:20Maybe that's user error, I don't know.

2:13:22But to switch from the like inner display to the outer display is

2:13:26I find it very rarely works the way I works the first time.

2:13:29And then secondly, when you have the phone in um opened up and you're

2:13:35trying to look at the rear camera to get a nice selfie, I may

2:13:39I'm trying to do this stupid viewfinder as we're talking and it's freaking impossible.

2:13:43It it keeps like acknowledging it with haptics and then just not doing anything.

2:13:47It's very frustrating.

2:13:48But anyways, when you have this giant slab open, I have yet to crack

2:13:53the code on the right way to hold my hands to not only not

2:13:57drop the giant slab, but perhaps even more importantly, take the damn picture.

2:14:02And again, maybe this is user error.

2:14:04Maybe what I need to do is just grab the screen with my mitts,

2:14:07you know, and just not be so precious about it.

2:14:10But it's incredibly frustrating.

2:14:12So here it is, arguably this is the best possible way for me to

2:14:15take a selfie.

2:14:16And to actually do so is very, very challenging.

2:14:20And so Uh the everything with everything camera related on this phone is driving

2:14:25me up a wall.

2:14:26And that is a big deal.

2:14:27I'm not trying to like fluff that off or like I'm not trying to

2:14:30make minimize that.

2:14:32But other than that, which admittedly, again, big deal.

2:14:35Other than that, though, it is an incredible device that I absolutely adore and

2:14:39I'm really, really liking it.

2:14:41And I think un unquestionably, I think I'm gonna stick with it for this

2:14:45year.

2:14:45The question that I haven't answered and I won't won't answer for another eleven

2:14:49months is what do I do next year?

2:14:51Assuming there is a duo two, you know, what do I do next year?

2:14:54And I I really and truly am not sure.

2:14:56Sitting here now, I think I'd probably stick with the with the folding phone,

2:15:00but I I I I have no idea.

2:15:02Ask me again in a year.

2:15:03Well on the uh camera thing, like you know, you mentioned that like you

2:15:06understand why it is that way.

2:15:08Unfortunately, the the with the camera hardware that shipped with that thing, you have

2:15:13no choice but to uh be annoying in one of the two things because

2:15:17either the camera looks wrong when it's closed or the camera looks wrong when

2:15:20it's open because obviously when it's closed and you hold it in your hand,

2:15:24the camera is in one place and then you open it up and you

2:15:27rotate it.

2:15:27Now that you know like so the solution is Square sensor and you crop

2:15:31it, right?

2:15:31But they didn't do that.

2:15:32They have a rectangular sensor and they use the entire rectangular sensor and they

2:15:35need to use the entire rectangular sensor because already the phone the camera's not

2:15:39that good, uh or not as good as the eighteen pro camera.

2:15:42So you definitely don't want to crop out of that.

2:15:44But that's the only solution.

2:15:45With this design, with these cameras in this position and the phone that folds

2:15:50this way, the only way you can make the camera not quote unquote look

2:15:54wrong in one either folded or unfolded mode is to have a square sensor

2:15:58and crop it as a uh in a different rectangle each time.

2:16:00And so maybe in the future, like thinking of you like next year, am

2:16:03I gonna use the new folding phone?

2:16:05If they have a bigger sensor that's big enough to be square and then

2:16:08they can crop it, all of a sudden that annoyance goes away and presumably

2:16:11the camera's also better.

2:16:12If it has face ID, that would also make you happy.

2:16:15Like these are the things that people are going to be measuring with the,

2:16:17you know, the duo two.

2:16:19What have they improved?

2:16:20Not just it's a new SOC, but like, did they put a square sensor

2:16:23on the camera?

2:16:23Are the cameras better?

2:16:24Does it have face ID?

2:16:26And And Marco with your uh embarrassment of opening the thing, I would say

2:16:29that like definitely at least use the phone until you get over that because

2:16:32like what the hell's the sense of having a holding phone if you're never

2:16:35gonna open it up?

2:16:35Then you're just torturing yourself by having a weird, small, thick phone that you

2:16:38never open.

2:16:39Like, that's the whole sale.

2:16:40And on that front though, I don't think it's a slam dunk that will

2:16:43make you like it more because what I think about as someone who hasn't

2:16:47is I always think about like s setting aside the embarrassment, which I think

2:16:50you need to get over just to give it a fair shot.

2:16:52Um

2:16:54like there is some

2:16:57I don't know.

2:16:58It's it's like a a tiny, I don't know how big, some kind of

2:17:02hurdle that you have to overcome to decide, is it worth me opening the

2:17:07phone?

2:17:08How long like it it signals a longer investment in usage because it's not

2:17:13so fast that you can do it like a like a StarTack Motorola.

2:17:17You know, it's not so fast that there's no cost to it.

2:17:20You are deciding, probably with two hands, to open the phone.

2:17:25And the idea is I'm going to use it for some amount of time

2:17:29that it's worth me opening it and then closing it again.

2:17:32And lots of things we do with our phones are like, oh, quick peek,

2:17:35badoop, you know, like there's lots of these short interactions where it may be

2:17:39that you feel like, oh, I don't want to bother opening it.

2:17:42And I feel like when you open a a folding phone, you're not committing

2:17:47to, but you're predicting that the thing you want to do with your phone

2:17:51is worth the opening and closing time for the advantages that you get with

2:17:55the bigger screen.

2:17:56And that I think once you get over the, you know, I don't want

2:17:59to open it, that is the determiner of whether you find the phone valuable.

2:18:02It's like if every interaction you have, you just feel like, Oh, I opened

2:18:07it and I closed it and I and while it was open, I did

2:18:09something.

2:18:10But honestly, there was more overhead in the opening and closing than there was

2:18:14value in the half a second that I looked at the bigger screen.

2:18:17Right.

2:18:17And that's gonna make you open it less.

2:18:19And then if it does sort of degenerate down to like now I'm just

2:18:21using a fat squat phone that I never open, not because I'm embarrassed to

2:18:26open it, but because I don't want to pay the cost of opening and

2:18:30closing unless I'm settling in to read a long article on the train or

2:18:34something.

2:18:34That I feel like is the thing I would be looking for as I

2:18:36was using this is like how how does the return on investment work out

2:18:41in terms of is it worth uh you know to use sign uh everything's

2:18:44a Seinfeld thing?

2:18:45Is this sponge worthy?

2:18:46Yeah, right.

2:18:48Is this is this interaction uh open the phone worthy?

2:18:51And obviously if the things if the apps haven't been updated by the phone,

2:18:54hell no, it's not worth it.

2:18:55Why would I open it up just so I could see the the uh

2:18:57the phone slightly bigger with black giant black spaces around it or whatever.

2:19:01But that uh I'll I'll be interested to hear your updates on that.

2:19:04Obviously Casey feels like he's already getting enough value out of it that he's

2:19:08you know it's it's worth opening.

2:19:09Lots of things in his life are sponge worthy, but Marco still up for

2:19:12grabs.

2:19:14No, young people don't even get this.

2:19:16This is an ancient cultural references that are actually kind of lewd, but anyway,

2:19:20Google it, kids