The Talk Show

152: ‘The Greatest Mic Drop I’ve Ever Seen’, With Special Guest Guy English


00:00:00   do it with your prince fan i can't say that i was i I've obviously you know as [TS]

00:00:05   someone who grew up in the eighties it was impossible to miss him and I watch [TS]

00:00:08   tons of MTV and so all of the songs from the eighties are totally ingrained in my [TS]

00:00:13   head because I put this watch them just all the time because I would you know [TS]

00:00:17   watch them to be all the time I like them a lot [TS]

00:00:20   I cannot say i was particularly a fan I came around to it later because like you [TS]

00:00:24   I was more of a I was putting in a pot category bit more we should think it's [TS]

00:00:30   fair to say that kind of probably like more rapidly can again but I mean after [TS]

00:00:36   I got out of that phase of like you know when you still like that when your [TS]

00:00:41   teenager he tend to delete and hit things until it good and bad lot more [TS]

00:00:44   but yea once i got into sort of appreciating what man he's immensely [TS]

00:00:50   talented and he said so much cultural impacts in terms of other music another [TS]

00:00:54   just the band's that's just the way to behave it's like he's amazing [TS]

00:00:59   yeah I tweeted something last night which day was a tribute was from that [TS]

00:01:02   when George Harrison died and his son had like a tribute and there and print [TS]

00:01:08   plate and and didn't even sing I was like Tom Petty and forget who the [TS]

00:01:12   somebody else he had no chance and asante yeah man and petty did most of [TS]

00:01:18   the lyrics but then prints came up with this guitar solo at the end and it's [TS]

00:01:24   just it's just like jaw-droppingly good you had always heard i know i'm not you [TS]

00:01:29   know in some people on Twitter all the most people just retweeted because it's [TS]

00:01:32   an amazing performance and it's just I mean it's just it's a great song [TS]

00:01:35   well played and it's just amazing any and then it's even better because at the [TS]

00:01:39   end eid Prince knows he nailed it and he just nonchalantly tosses his guitar up [TS]

00:01:44   in the air and it never comes down wearable what the hell happened to his [TS]

00:01:48   guitar and just being on a wire the whole time [TS]

00:01:50   daddy just Saunders off states like it's like sections for this interesting i [TS]

00:01:54   seen performing he is incredible i realize it's a guitar not a microphone [TS]

00:01:58   but effectively is the greatest mic drop [TS]

00:02:01   I've ever so I mean in addition to being a great song in the great performance [TS]

00:02:04   yeah it is literally the best mic drop I've ever seen because it doesn't come [TS]

00:02:07   on it's [TS]

00:02:09   yeah and he walks out like Jimi Hendrix style oh but you're not accustomed to [TS]

00:02:13   hearing necessarily and songs but he can't do it you don't mind me saying I [TS]

00:02:18   just in my back pocket i could be the next romantics but yeah it's justin yeah [TS]

00:02:22   I play a lot of functions and and then never had a couple people on Twitter who [TS]

00:02:25   are like that's how can you you know to me how can you not know the princes want [TS]

00:02:29   to like the top 20 guitarists of all time maybe like top 10 and I didn't know [TS]

00:02:34   I knew he was great i know i knew we could play a bunch of instruments I knew [TS]

00:02:37   he was very talented musician and including the guitar I knew that because [TS]

00:02:40   people told me but I didn't know it in the way you really know it when you [TS]

00:02:43   actually see it [TS]

00:02:45   yeah and I realized then that all of those guitar solos on all of princes [TS]

00:02:48   songs that are so amazing for him and I didn't know that before I get a new the [TS]

00:02:52   ball after the half of the other instruments that are being right and [TS]

00:02:55   also have right now that he's just doing it all and it in a way that's just you [TS]

00:03:01   know almost impossible to comprehend i think one thing did I could probably [TS]

00:03:05   convince you to appreciate it but a lot is that everyone had to change his name [TS]

00:03:10   he had somebody and yeah so the record label basically had him by the balls for [TS]

00:03:16   producing albums under the name Prince again like his deal so they exclude and [TS]

00:03:22   the in the ultimate fuck you [TS]

00:03:25   he's like I'm gonna change my name to dis older I remember when he changed his [TS]

00:03:29   name to the character I didn't realize that it was it was a way out of his my [TS]

00:03:32   god it was 100% whey out of its like screw you like you're not owning my [TS]

00:03:37   Master's like my music I'm taking it and you're not only my name is i'm going to [TS]

00:03:41   change my name to something ridiculous and he never bothered explaining to that [TS]

00:03:45   it's not like you went on other shows and just told people that look I'm doing [TS]

00:03:49   that I'm going to keep focusing on my work [TS]

00:03:52   same reason why doesn't want all the youtube stuff is he wants to basically [TS]

00:03:55   be able to own all the distribution [TS]

00:03:57   yeah yeah yeahs service what he thinks artist deserve to be paid and I [TS]

00:04:00   absolutely have been aware of his stance on that last night I mean like everybody [TS]

00:04:05   half the people in the Western world last night you know i mean i started let [TS]

00:04:11   you know when to listen to perseverance to and not on Apple music I knew that [TS]

00:04:15   you know first thing i tried in and [TS]

00:04:18   I instantly thought while I I guess I knew that actually you know because he's [TS]

00:04:22   not into it so we just started buying a bunch of stuff from itunes it was a lot [TS]

00:04:27   of fun [TS]

00:04:27   good you know I i post the link today on during farber and if you saw it but a [TS]

00:04:31   just just like a random screenshot from a movie [TS]

00:04:37   the Prince made 1990 called graffiti bridge where he played like him you know [TS]

00:04:41   like a sort of thinly veiled version of himself like a young songwriter and in [TS]

00:04:46   1990 the character he was you know composing a song on like a little mac [TS]

00:04:51   and smack it and and of course it was no end and it was totally legit wasn't like [TS]

00:04:55   a phony phony phony fake you I was like a real app from the day of you know like [TS]

00:05:02   it like maybe tracking yet maybe try to connect trackers and ya still like the [TS]

00:05:05   actual screen shot in the in the movie is actually like an actual song that he [TS]

00:05:11   wrote it was like so you got like a little look at at his Prince's own like [TS]

00:05:16   you know working said I workflow and right track stuff with a mac like warhol [TS]

00:05:24   drying and right right [TS]

00:05:26   sketching on mac paint right little nine inch screen tiny god what would have [TS]

00:05:33   been if it was an SE I think that was like that the guy who wrote the blog [TS]

00:05:36   post is trying to figure out he nailed it down it was either an SEO and sem 30 [TS]

00:05:40   yeah the su-30 didn't come out until like late in the year before the movie [TS]

00:05:44   was made us so there's I think there's a much better chance that it was just an [TS]

00:05:47   SE so that would have been just 68 68,000 chip I think I don't know that if [TS]

00:05:54   they had a 6820 but it wasn't until the SES 60 80 30 that the mac really got [TS]

00:06:01   fast that was a pretty slow machine you don't know you got it [TS]

00:06:05   it says a lot about is forward-looking oh absolutely absolutely notice that [TS]

00:06:11   he's like look I'm gonna try this crazy thing that probably sounded tinny and [TS]

00:06:15   kind of crappy to and compared to all the other options he had but he was [TS]

00:06:18   fascinated enough to like well and I think I was cool when I would learn how [TS]

00:06:22   to do it yeah I'm sure the final output you know maybe didn't come right off the [TS]

00:06:25   mac you know a lot of ways because you know I played a lot of actual analog [TS]

00:06:28   instruments but maybe to get that the composition [TS]

00:06:31   right yeah it's that that power of digital editing and the way that you can [TS]

00:06:37   you can move stuff i mean we take it for granted to there and kick you know [TS]

00:06:42   people who've grown up and an all-digital world head you know you did [TS]

00:06:47   I could see why they take it for granted big but you know when you learn to be a [TS]

00:06:52   writer or you know like it like I did where we didn't have word processors are [TS]

00:06:57   computers at our disposal all the time and I used to actually I'm high school I [TS]

00:07:02   used an actual use a typewriter to write stuff and he's like when you think about [TS]

00:07:05   like when you're halfway through a thing and you really want to move a paragraph [TS]

00:07:11   or even just take out a set if you realize you've just duplicated it's the [TS]

00:07:15   same sentence twice something that you wrote like the page before and it's like [TS]

00:07:20   you either have to reach retype the whole page or just or just live with it [TS]

00:07:24   you know you start making decisions based on convenience rather than what it [TS]

00:07:29   should be [TS]

00:07:30   craft right i mean you really was if you wanted to get it do anywhere near a [TS]

00:07:35   halfway decent job it was almost impossible not to type the whole thing [TS]

00:07:38   twice because there's how could you not make some sort of editing decision you [TS]

00:07:44   know where you go through and then retype it and you would literally have [TS]

00:07:47   to retype that the thing I mean I'm sure music you know it was the same way in a [TS]

00:07:50   lot of ways in that digital editing the same way that it's revolutionized you [TS]

00:07:55   know word processing same way from music I'm sure yeah so is definitely changing [TS]

00:08:01   the tempo like there is a bit there's almost there dimension to music that [TS]

00:08:07   doesn't necessarily happen in in writing [TS]

00:08:10   yeah totally yeah I don't know that what I remember from those days the early [TS]

00:08:15   days of mac around that time is yes yes then we did we were constantly running [TS]

00:08:20   up against every single one of the limits of the machines did I mean just [TS]

00:08:25   stacks full of floppy disks all stuffed to within a few bites of being full a [TS]

00:08:31   hard drive that was completely full if you go back even just a few more years [TS]

00:08:35   didn't even have a hard drive everything you got the floppy drive [TS]

00:08:38   severely ram constrained I mean that most of those devices a lot of those [TS]

00:08:43   early max only had and a gigabyte or two gigabytes my mac LLC in 1991 it for a [TS]

00:08:51   whopping four get are not gigabytes Megan thank you for making it is it yeah [TS]

00:08:55   four megabytes of RAM ah so you're ram constrained storage constrained the [TS]

00:09:01   storage was incredibly slow the hard drives slow the floppies were so slow [TS]

00:09:05   you could hear them making the reads and writes yeah I guess you could hear the [TS]

00:09:10   hard drives do but yeah the floor you find it comforting did yeah definitely [TS]

00:09:14   could you knew someone was working it was it was comforting away didn't think [TS]

00:09:19   about it until it went away your and then you realize that if you think that [TS]

00:09:26   something might be going wrong you don't have that comfort like at least back [TS]

00:09:30   then it's like if you thought something was going wrong like like a crash like [TS]

00:09:33   maybe our that missed you know the system is locking up but you could still [TS]

00:09:37   hear the thing you were hoping was being saved being written to you had hoped [TS]

00:09:42   that ok at least it's still writing to the disk or if it locked up and all you [TS]

00:09:46   could hear it like it were and then clicking noise right there were certain [TS]

00:09:49   oh it's you could definitely you did a big part of the diagnosis of any problem [TS]

00:09:54   back then was one of a kind of Smith what kind of noise mechanical robot is [TS]

00:09:59   fine apart right is ever certain if it was perfectly repetitious then that's a [TS]

00:10:06   bad sign [TS]

00:10:07   yes that's like the same thing is going ok yes you could hear sometimes you can [TS]

00:10:11   hear it when a program it wedged itself into an infinite loop and huh [TS]

00:10:15   and that was bad but like there's a certain randomness to the sounds of like [TS]

00:10:20   a file being written that it wasn't quite repetitious that that was soothing [TS]

00:10:25   you seeking to the different sectors so here there there was it was more of an [TS]

00:10:29   analog relationship it was fundamentally a digital machine but there was you know [TS]

00:10:34   that the actual spinning disk and and the physicality of the ones and zeros [TS]

00:10:41   being written to the disc gave it its certain a genuinely analog dimension [TS]

00:10:46   that that came across in your relationship with it [TS]

00:10:48   I feel like that's probably it I don't drive so correct me but like a manual vs [TS]

00:10:54   automatic yeah i think just like you're looking very aware of the Machine and [TS]

00:10:58   one case in the other case you kind of device from a little bit [TS]

00:11:01   well and I think there's also a if you compared to driving and I'm not really a [TS]

00:11:06   car guy but i do drive but i think there's also a almost undisputedly a a [TS]

00:11:13   comparison to as as decades go on card our cars are more and more abstract in [TS]

00:11:21   terms of just how much isolation areas from the noise outside the shock [TS]

00:11:26   absorption and older cars you really feel the road and you feel it's it's you [TS]

00:11:32   just so much less removed I mean it's almost shocking sometimes when you look [TS]

00:11:35   at a car from the sixties or seventies let them further like how thin the doors [TS]

00:11:40   are you know it's good [TS]

00:11:42   everything was a lot more thinner and you just felt the road more and it's [TS]

00:11:46   more pleasing I think overall I mean obviously consumer money talks that's [TS]

00:11:50   more pleasing to have it abstracted but in a way as the driver you're you're [TS]

00:11:54   removed from the the the just the feel of the road yeah did you show me a video [TS]

00:12:03   do that Adam beneficiated with you it's like an old 1950's Buick crashing until [TS]

00:12:07   I don't know what like a modern smoker or something [TS]

00:12:10   now I don't think so and the Buick just gets destroy their word it was like the [TS]

00:12:17   little guy just it's so much better engineer now it's it's absolutely [TS]

00:12:21   amazing the differences that they've made in the ability that's to survive a [TS]

00:12:28   crash together they call it the passing to keep that to maintain the integrity [TS]

00:12:31   of the passenger cabin and and sacrifice the entire rest of the car it's it's [TS]

00:12:35   just unbelievable words in the old days the coal car would just collapse like a [TS]

00:12:39   can of coke [TS]

00:12:39   yes kinda second if it really engine block Chevrolet going into your chest [TS]

00:12:44   it's sickening to because you think like those old-time cars the old cars were so [TS]

00:12:48   heavy that they would be safer but they just weren't because the structure [TS]

00:12:51   didn't you know the structural integrity just wasn't there but it really is like [TS]

00:12:55   it's just stepping on an empty aluminum can it's just the whole thing just yet [TS]

00:12:59   collapse into it [TS]

00:13:00   often it huh no designed for different goals ok the ATP guys are like shaking [TS]

00:13:06   their fists this now [TS]

00:13:07   oh i don't think so i think Syracuse is probably happy about the whole time Mac [TS]

00:13:10   talk and me they had a good segment recently where they were talking I guess [TS]

00:13:14   it because it was sort of one of the recent episodes was the day it's for [TS]

00:13:18   apples 40th anniversary let ya look back at our first max and and I couldn't [TS]

00:13:23   listen to get Marky know it's awful i honestly I consider myself a [TS]

00:13:29   johnny-come-lately you are given temperature and wraps guy right yeah so [TS]

00:13:35   I you know anything after that Mikey come on kids [TS]

00:13:40   exactly and no that was one of those times where syracuse it was really i [TS]

00:13:44   dunno it just felt like he was creepily picking the thoughts out of my brain [TS]

00:13:50   because it was he was i he actually started using a magnet few years before [TS]

00:13:54   me even though he's a few years younger than me just because my school my high [TS]

00:13:58   school only had one mac and when I the longer i went i had like it was almost [TS]

00:14:03   like that classes for just like two or three of us and in programming as like [TS]

00:14:09   my last two years of high school there weren't it was only like two or three [TS]

00:14:11   other kids in the class and i wanted i wanted a color display so I used that to [TS]

00:14:16   GS how was very act [TS]

00:14:20   thank you to meet their trusty well there's only one mac and end it was you [TS]

00:14:24   know and I didn't want to you know i guess i could have argued for equal time [TS]

00:14:27   on it was a member of the classroom named Elliot but I was like we're trying [TS]

00:14:34   to decide which one of us would maybe use the mac and who you know and then [TS]

00:14:37   there were a bunch of two TS in a lab that the you know we could choose from I [TS]

00:14:41   guess if neither of us wanted to use the mac we could both use the two gs but [TS]

00:14:45   he's you know he seemed more interested in the maghuin i was i was fined let him [TS]

00:14:48   have it and I played with it a little and i remember playing with especially [TS]

00:14:52   with mac right and mac paint macpaint in particular and mac draw but even back [TS]

00:15:00   then with mac draw even in 1989-90 i was instantly baffled by bezier curves but [TS]

00:15:07   if L yeah i loved and understood what it meant i understood [TS]

00:15:11   it was a vector graphic could offer and I was fascinated but damned if I could [TS]

00:15:17   it navigate the interface but Mac Manuel control points here like to do so I [TS]

00:15:24   learned the mat and I say that knowing the math and yeah do it but it's still [TS]

00:15:27   like good it's unintuitive yeah it's very unintuitive and and everything I [TS]

00:15:32   learned about the mac was just completely into it remember to do i [TS]

00:15:36   didn't i didn't like the mac is for weight so i started an apple to plus [TS]

00:15:41   love the Apple 2 GS then got into pcs and for whatever reason because i was a [TS]

00:15:51   stubborn kid I was like I didn't like the mac floppy disk i just it was right [TS]

00:15:58   because it had that latch you don't like three-and-a-half inch blog is good just [TS]

00:16:02   found it an elegant and i found that you liked the five and a quarter ones [TS]

00:16:06   because you can flip them over and use a whole bunch and then you can get a whole [TS]

00:16:09   second side you could do that with the with the plastic ones too but it was [TS]

00:16:12   obviously harder and harder to make the whole yeah yeah it was just so it was [TS]

00:16:18   done but it was like a five year phase of my life with enemy and I was getting [TS]

00:16:22   into like hardcore until assembly programming and stuff at the time but [TS]

00:16:28   then i did a drafting class in high school because they like drawing turns [TS]

00:16:34   out not the same thing but one of the things we have to do is work on a mac [TS]

00:16:38   and mac draw to change my mind and very soon after day I mean this offer was [TS]

00:16:45   $MONEY billion get tired loved it was such a new different experience [TS]

00:16:51   it's so funny to I know and I Casey even mention it because cases to way too [TS]

00:16:57   young but he was baffled by the fact that the three-and-a-half inch ones for [TS]

00:17:01   still called floppies even though there was nothing sloppy about them because [TS]

00:17:04   they were in my shell it is it's just one of those stupid names because it [TS]

00:17:09   what they did a long story short the there used to be Aiden's floppies really [TS]

00:17:13   clear back but an angry dates my time but then like in the Apple to hear and [TS]

00:17:17   what most of us in the eighties new with the five maybe as I bet your parents [TS]

00:17:22   have like a stack of five and [TS]

00:17:23   strange floppies that your ya want me possibly even five and a quarter inches [TS]

00:17:27   tall because i don't have a computer in the house so who really yeah I've told [TS]

00:17:32   this story but only have okay and my parents refused to buy can make it [TS]

00:17:36   better this is why you made that is why your career and technology went nowhere [TS]

00:17:40   all a lot of my friends were getting computers my friend Joey had an apple [TS]

00:17:44   apple 2e which I could deeply coveted because I I from the early days on could [TS]

00:17:50   I perceived that Apple's computers were superior build quality and were made [TS]

00:17:55   with that and I to design that the others weren't but i would have taken [TS]

00:18:00   any of them ever taken a Commodore Everett today I would have taken any or [TS]

00:18:03   all of them you know but my friends are getting computers they were all [TS]

00:18:06   relatively expensive the apple in particular that's some things that don't [TS]

00:18:10   change but even like a common good commodore 64 was was he won't cheat they [TS]

00:18:17   weren't cheap and a lot of my friends had to push because their parents like [TS]

00:18:21   that's a lot of money and you're not you know in my end and you're not going to [TS]

00:18:26   use it enough you know you're just gonna play games where we have an Atari four [TS]

00:18:29   games [TS]

00:18:30   my parents wouldn't buy him a computer because they said if we bought you a [TS]

00:18:33   computer were worried that you're never gonna leave the house but yeah like they [TS]

00:18:40   I don't know if it was the right parental decision or not I can't quite [TS]

00:18:44   say I even in hindsight I i can't quite say I agree with them but maybe because [TS]

00:18:49   you know I didn't have it had a pretty good social life in high school but I [TS]

00:18:52   don't maybe I wouldn't i had a computer at home and he's probably right decision [TS]

00:18:58   because I got so well because whatever kind of similar and not entirely bit i [TS]

00:19:04   got it the first Apple too i got was take the second summer after I moved [TS]

00:19:10   from England here so I didn't really know a lot of people in in canada and [TS]

00:19:14   basically spent the entire summer inside programming right and that became like [TS]

00:19:19   part of my I don't know how to describe it like it like recharging like you know [TS]

00:19:26   when you need some alone time to go and do something just for yourself like and [TS]

00:19:29   that lasted all during high school which is when actually became good night you [TS]

00:19:34   know [TS]

00:19:34   I want to put my trade is now but yeah there's a lot of time I just did not [TS]

00:19:38   cops like you when I really should've like in a beautiful summer I'd be like a [TS]

00:19:42   maybe i'll just try fixing this little bug in the summer between 10th and 11th [TS]

00:19:48   grade my high school shut down there the the building was had needed a lot of [TS]

00:19:55   repairs especially the roof and the school district had another building [TS]

00:19:59   there was a middle school in it and in the decades prior that the population of [TS]

00:20:03   the school district decrease such that they close the middle school put the [TS]

00:20:08   fifth and sixth graders in the elementary school and it went from three [TS]

00:20:11   schools elementary middle and high school to just two buildings in [TS]

00:20:15   elementary school for 126 and high school for seven to 12 and in between [TS]

00:20:20   10th and 11th grade they shut down the high school and move the high school to [TS]

00:20:25   the middle school because it was a newer it was considered it was cheaper did fix [TS]

00:20:29   them in the middle school which had been dormant for like 45 years and shutdown [TS]

00:20:35   high school so the computer teacher I didn't trust the movers with the [TS]

00:20:42   computers and let students take the computers home for the summer so I got [TS]

00:20:46   to take an apple to GS home for the summer [TS]

00:20:50   oh man yeah it was awesome and I had a job i actually that school hired a bunch [TS]

00:20:57   of kids to help move the school so I like working is like a mover [TS]

00:21:02   there's a couple good that's pretty smart was that like a legit job like [TS]

00:21:07   nigga paid minimum wage [TS]

00:21:09   oh yeah minimum wage absolutely whatever i don't use whatever I think minimal I [TS]

00:21:15   could have been just playing fast and loose yeah i think it was either 375 an [TS]

00:21:18   hour or 425 an hour for dollars twenty-five minutes and that with me and [TS]

00:21:22   back-breaking work i mean i remember moving the library [TS]

00:21:25   oh my god it's like because what is heavier than a box full of books there's [TS]

00:21:31   there's and yeah [TS]

00:21:32   very little is heavier than a box of books and it just thousands of books [TS]

00:21:36   tens of thousands of books is often and we can ride it was like a two-mile ride [TS]

00:21:41   to go between the buildings [TS]

00:21:44   and they just we just had like this big flatbed open-air truck and we would just [TS]

00:21:49   loaded up with stuff and then find spots to sit if we don't know I open-air no [TS]

00:21:56   seatbelt on just a bunch of kids on the truck man look at how old schools that [TS]

00:22:01   back it's tiresome movement which kids and just throw them in the back of the [TS]

00:22:07   truck late and books they were they also did hire some adults like day laborer [TS]

00:22:15   types [TS]

00:22:15   I mean this is something that people who just do moving there's disease are not [TS]

00:22:19   highly skilled work this is at the bottom of the the skill Jane in the in [TS]

00:22:24   the the laboring world and i remember the one day we're still moving the [TS]

00:22:31   library we had the card catalog and and so it was you know obvious is predates [TS]

00:22:36   computerization of the card catalog was just this you remember what they look [TS]

00:22:40   like they just are like oh yeah total anytime there's like a hole punches on [TS]

00:22:44   the bottom like a little cards that you pull it yet yeah and you pull it out it [TS]

00:22:47   was just filled with index cards and the one guy this guy wasn't a kid wasn't [TS]

00:22:51   always like what the hell is this and we were like trying to explain to him that [TS]

00:22:54   is these are like an index of every single book in the library and he just [TS]

00:22:58   takes a few out while we're on the road going like 35 miles an hour just throws [TS]

00:23:03   coming over yeah I just I i mean i was ended I was an asshole as a teenager I [TS]

00:23:09   really wasn't it did a lot of shit that I in hindsight i really feel like i [TS]

00:23:13   needed i need to be doing anything good yeah yeah I but I was just a pot I was [TS]

00:23:19   appalled because i saw that is like we revert it as data loss like some of this [TS]

00:23:23   yeah i did like vandalism or stuff like that I I i wrote off just because it [TS]

00:23:28   seemed ultimately harmless whereas I feel like put a pretty graffiti on [TS]

00:23:32   political science right right but I mean messing with books [TS]

00:23:36   oh that was never burn a book and riots the right that way on a lake like okay [TS]

00:23:43   with the same summer so the same summer when we're moving with the old the old [TS]

00:23:47   high school had a central courtyard so that classes on the inside . sunlight to [TS]

00:23:53   write so then in other words it's sort of an o-shaped building that was [TS]

00:23:56   rectangular but [TS]

00:23:57   donut three floors central courtyard and one of the classrooms on the third floor [TS]

00:24:03   had like a janky old big-ass color TV and wasn't knew at the time and we dared [TS]

00:24:10   each other to throw it out the window into the court you took to see see what [TS]

00:24:15   kind of noise it would make and ultimately me and another guy like took [TS]

00:24:19   it like we neither of us would do it by ourselves but we read it was heavy [TS]

00:24:23   enough that I don't know if I could have it was really heavy but me and another [TS]

00:24:26   guy i don't want to know I don't want to name them just in case I don't want to [TS]

00:24:31   put his name on the right i can afford it and another kid opened up the window [TS]

00:24:38   and we toss this big-ass color TV out the window and it made the greatest know [TS]

00:24:44   is all my god it was it was worth it [TS]

00:24:47   so I did that and I didn't feel the least bit guilty about it and then there [TS]

00:24:51   was discovered there was a discussion there was a beating later about the TV [TS]

00:24:54   and it did everybody go everybody knows anybody know about the TV in the [TS]

00:25:00   courtyard and nobody nobody could remember anything about that square but [TS]

00:25:05   that awesome the cards out of the card catalog go to me that was that was [TS]

00:25:09   beyond the pale because it's like sacrilegious yeah exactly yeah its side [TS]

00:25:14   but we got the way you put it is just data life and have you seen that I think [TS]

00:25:21   i'm one of the BOS CDs that they shipped the OS on like one of the demo movies [TS]

00:25:26   was them tossing monitors offered top of their office block [TS]

00:25:32   no i don't so like it was exactly what you described they just dragged a bunch [TS]

00:25:36   of old monitors up and they just did a mock which maybe explains why they went [TS]

00:25:42   out of business [TS]

00:25:44   it was pretty funny as let's see about that eel and he'll probably has a link [TS]

00:25:48   of something all right I'm gonna see if I can google it after the show he was [TS]

00:25:52   passing monitors off the roof yeah you'll be being a letterman attic [TS]

00:25:57   probably didn't help either because tossing a TV off off hide high floor of [TS]

00:26:03   a building is a very Letterman like thing to do [TS]

00:26:05   yes the different the difference is that if the Letterman Show toss the TV off [TS]

00:26:09   the roof [TS]

00:26:10   they bought the team [TS]

00:26:11   be yes yeah I controlled environment there's no and I did not buy hit by that [TS]

00:26:17   TV i do not buy the TV i threw out the window but I had a job I had it was a [TS]

00:26:24   full-time job we worked you know eight hours a day I played tons and tons of a [TS]

00:26:29   basketball all summer long and filling in the gaps whatever wasn't working and [TS]

00:26:33   then every other waking moment was spent on the computer and I thought that you [TS]

00:26:38   know the fact that i held a job and still played recreational basketball all [TS]

00:26:42   the time i went to movies with friends on weekends and stuff like that seemed [TS]

00:26:47   to me like i was able to have a computer but my parents were like see this is why [TS]

00:26:50   we can't buy you a computer even though i was doing other stuff they somehow [TS]

00:26:53   seem to think that I was but now you turned out okay [TS]

00:26:56   oh yeah I don't know about that [TS]

00:27:00   well thank you for the sake of this argument [TS]

00:27:04   yeah yeah whatever look at the difference that i would say this and I [TS]

00:27:08   think that it was the fact that i just didn't I guess I got to play with that [TS]

00:27:11   one mac in the lab enough that I i saw what it was all about and I saw the [TS]

00:27:15   appeal and I really saw the cleverness of having a system that was [TS]

00:27:20   fundamentally a graphical user interface em but the idea of getting obsessed with [TS]

00:27:27   user interface design just hadn't occurred to me yet and and the the [TS]

00:27:31   profound miss of the cleverness of the max UI system just it hadn't I didn't [TS]

00:27:40   use I needed to use it more to to appreciate it i don't think it has [TS]

00:27:44   occurred to anybody it I with the exception of the people that worked on [TS]

00:27:48   Lisa in the mac it seems that's one difference with Syracuse to me it seems [TS]

00:27:54   like you listening to his early history of computing the heat got he got that [TS]

00:27:58   aspect of the mac with almost maybe instantly but certainly with less [TS]

00:28:04   exposure to it than i did I needed to own one which is which I did when I got [TS]

00:28:09   to college to have that mac like I said the aforementioned 44 megabyte of ram 40 [TS]

00:28:14   megabyte hard drive Mack LC and then really really appreciate it so no it's [TS]

00:28:20   so I like to make like I said it in the jacket [TS]

00:28:22   so I was like okay I get it this is something totally different but I didn't [TS]

00:28:27   really appreciate one until they bought one after then immediately after the [TS]

00:28:31   next acquisition and then I was stuck with OS 8 for a year and I felt [TS]

00:28:41   immediately like man I'm stuck with operating system it's like not good and [TS]

00:28:46   then I learnt all the great things about it and so yeah like I do consider myself [TS]

00:28:51   a johnny-come-lately but what I mean by nobody had appreciated it [TS]

00:28:57   I don't think the people at xerox parc weren't necessarily thinking about [TS]

00:29:00   design the same way that Apple was when they went to actually try to implement [TS]

00:29:06   my first release and then the mac yeah yeah it's hard to say without using this [TS]

00:29:13   I've never gotten the chance to use the Xerox star but I've read enough about it [TS]

00:29:17   and there's work the drugs didn't seen it and kind of looked at it and and [TS]

00:29:21   because i used to be a little bit more obsessed with the whole that stupid this [TS]

00:29:25   the angle that Apple dapple really didn't even doing with the mac they just [TS]

00:29:28   ripped off the rocks which legally isn't true because they actually got xerox in [TS]

00:29:33   exchange for a good vantage office it was totally on the up-and-up legally [TS]

00:29:36   they said how about we give you a little bit of a stock in the apple core apple [TS]

00:29:39   computer and then let us know just think that's a fast I'll argument [TS]

00:29:43   yeah in general well it's wrong and who cares like now but it's at the time it [TS]

00:29:48   was it at the time when there were was more more arguments between you know pc [TS]

00:29:56   sure at the time it was a point but I mean it's only it it's only a point if [TS]

00:29:59   you're trying to make an appeal to Authority argument right and i never got [TS]

00:30:05   too bogged down in I mean somebody might be able to dig up some old usenet posted [TS]

00:30:09   this pic pic but i seem to recall that I always have another a anti old-school [TS]

00:30:14   macclesfield well I find I found it tiresome because it it it was I was a [TS]

00:30:21   hundred percent certain that i was on the right side and it seemed to me like [TS]

00:30:26   the people on the other side didn't really have anything to contribute [TS]

00:30:29   anyway so if they're want to be wrong they can be wrong [TS]

00:30:32   like it wasn't worth trying to convince them there was what was what would be [TS]

00:30:35   the point if you know if you can't see how superior this is then you know [TS]

00:30:41   forget about it I mean circulation it's incredible how you going and edited to [TS]

00:30:44   what's that kind of my dog i thought one of the things that I thought was I had [TS]

00:30:55   to me do you remember do to you when you I don't know if you were too late i mean [TS]

00:30:59   resident was still a thing in that [TS]

00:31:01   oh yeah yeah resident to me was is maybe the my favorite mac program of that [TS]

00:31:09   loved him [TS]

00:31:10   let's just say I I while being foreign to me and love the idea of a resource [TS]

00:31:14   for i love the idea stuffing extra information in there but on the windows [TS]

00:31:20   side they try to do something similar like the exe format is a flat format but [TS]

00:31:27   you can have resources appended to it right but it's not the same thing as [TS]

00:31:32   having an actual resource for which is good and bad a good in it it's just one [TS]

00:31:39   flat binary stream bad in that you don't have the and then you want to express [TS]

00:31:48   expressiveness like it I can visit it look at multi resource file [TS]

00:31:54   well and it did it it the whole idea predated the era of universal the [TS]

00:32:03   internet the internet that really solve the problem of every computer eyes [TS]

00:32:07   because i think the internet i think the internet turned everything into the [TS]

00:32:11   lowest common denominator did that was my binary stream writing right now it's [TS]

00:32:16   it's it's not o'clock and a lot of ways there that's not some ways negative you [TS]

00:32:20   know exactly it's not to say that it meant the best thing one it just meant [TS]

00:32:24   though that there was there might be a good reason to go with the lowest common [TS]

00:32:27   denominator solution of everything is just a single for file [TS]

00:32:31   yeah I'm coming from 1-2 at the time which and even NT which both had [TS]

00:32:36   multiple resource folks [TS]

00:32:41   look at that time all of the file systems had followed with the maggot [TS]

00:32:45   done which was like okay this data in one segment and then there's a bunch of [TS]

00:32:49   other segments that have you know either metadata or you know what you guys [TS]

00:32:54   called resource works the contract extended attributes which is essentially [TS]

00:32:58   those what really it's not even the technical details of whether it was a 24 [TS]

00:33:01   volt I fork file system or if they had done something more of a hack like let's [TS]

00:33:08   say it's or you know like a lot like what we have on us ten network where [TS]

00:33:12   your app is really just a folder that the lender treats as a file and total [TS]

00:33:16   resources you know just imagine if the original mac had gone with the same [TS]

00:33:20   thing words a special magic kind of folder and in the folder are all the [TS]

00:33:24   resources and every one of the resources itself actually just a flat file it's [TS]

00:33:28   the conceptual design of having this one app that you could edit all that stuff [TS]

00:33:34   with all these different resources so that even in the nerd mode of of either [TS]

00:33:40   being a developer or just being an enthusiast who wants to customize the [TS]

00:33:44   icon for a file or a nap or folder or any of the other many many things you [TS]

00:33:54   could edit and manipulate and resident the fact that even when you did those [TS]

00:33:58   things you were still within same the same GUI universe [TS]

00:34:02   mhm and you didn't have to resort to a command line or something [TS]

00:34:05   ya know in some ways it's kind of like the small talk like living environment [TS]

00:34:10   yes I do i do think so i think you're in a strange way even though the mac the [TS]

00:34:15   original mac i don't think you would say the technical way not all that important [TS]

00:34:19   to be different but the concept is a little bit the same right like yes that [TS]

00:34:23   you stay you stay completely committed to this to this limitation that yourself [TS]

00:34:28   imposing and and beauty will come out of it yet [TS]

00:34:32   yeah i think so and you know it's funny [TS]

00:34:36   next used to do that with like apps it shipped even on OS 10 up until oh I'm [TS]

00:34:43   gonna make up a number 10 223 most of the apps would ship with nibs which [TS]

00:34:51   would next interface builder files which you could open up in [TS]

00:34:54   interface builder which has since been merged into Xcode and then edit the UI [TS]

00:35:02   of the app that you like if you didn't like the arrangement of dialog boxes you [TS]

00:35:06   can change it just like and visit it right these days they've moved away from [TS]

00:35:13   time [TS]

00:35:14   yeah they all get compiled down into stuff that you can hit afterwards from a [TS]

00:35:23   software reliability . if you think that's probably a good idea but i like [TS]

00:35:30   the old west style of you know stuff it is is common between both platforms the [TS]

00:35:38   the classic mac OS was i'm not saying that it should have [TS]

00:35:43   in hindsight that it should have gone through through to today that I mean [TS]

00:35:47   there's certainly some advantages to the Mac os10 philosophy you know of the [TS]

00:35:52   design of the system where things started getting locked down and some of [TS]

00:35:58   the technical aspects of it were not is conceptually beautiful but more [TS]

00:36:03   practical [TS]

00:36:03   I that's when I first dead can became true familiar with your accuser is our [TS]

00:36:13   to argue the at the back then it was made invest and i would argue the future [TS]

00:36:20   looking pragmatism and he would argue did well it just sucks in terms of let's [TS]

00:36:24   say window sizing right like well look it's all done on the GPU and they're [TS]

00:36:28   doing much stuff and it's gonna get better and that yeah but it sucks and he [TS]

00:36:33   was he was right [TS]

00:36:35   he's right i think i'm also right but if it you know there was a beauty to the [TS]

00:36:42   original mac OS know that hasn't matched since and I don't think I totally like [TS]

00:36:45   and- and I completely agree with toxic you said that iOS is closer much closer [TS]

00:36:51   yep then Mac OS tenders to the original and yeah i think now we're getting into [TS]

00:36:57   well more convoluted territory where I'm not sure [TS]

00:37:01   well the big difference the big difference and this never would have [TS]

00:37:04   made sense in the era of of [TS]

00:37:07   the original mac wouldn't have it just don't get ever would have occurred to [TS]

00:37:10   anybody even steve jobs to lock the system down and not even allow you did [TS]

00:37:16   you know they're did like the residents a perfect comparison there's never gonna [TS]

00:37:21   be a resident for iOS that lets you diddle with the icons for apps or how [TS]

00:37:26   the resources in it because it that that doesn't that there's another aspect of [TS]

00:37:30   iOS that that would be philosophically opposed to there's a sort of do not [TS]

00:37:35   allow you to shoot yours by part of the design of iOS is to design a system that [TS]

00:37:40   prevents you from shooting yourself in the foot even that you really really if [TS]

00:37:44   you've got like a really cheat you know a satchel eats foot and you just want to [TS]

00:37:48   shoot yourself in the foot [TS]

00:37:49   you're not you can't do it in iOS by itself that just never would have [TS]

00:37:56   occurred to anybody in the mac OS air like I don't think the fact that you [TS]

00:37:59   know i mean it wasn't like the Machine shipped with resident you had to put it [TS]

00:38:03   on your machine but not even allowing you to do resident or not allowing you [TS]

00:38:08   know having a resident that wasn't allowed to edit certain system files or [TS]

00:38:12   something like that never existed makes sense well I mean used to some of the [TS]

00:38:16   hacks we would do we would go right into the remember there is the system [TS]

00:38:19   suitcase there was actually there is it [TS]

00:38:22   yeah i mean as part of the things one of things that i say made the mac the [TS]

00:38:26   original mac so beautiful is that the entire file system was there was no no [TS]

00:38:32   crap there was like four or in those years went on very very little crap like [TS]

00:38:36   it was just a folder that said system folder and inside was a last suitcase [TS]

00:38:41   file called system and that had all the resources for the system itself and [TS]

00:38:45   they're all neatly organized over there were no hidden folders or anything like [TS]

00:38:49   that the only hidden folder I can remember would be the desktop folder [TS]

00:38:53   that at the root level of the hard drive there was an invisible folder called the [TS]

00:38:57   disc Desktop folder which is the actual location in the file system where [TS]

00:39:01   everything you put on your desktop was notably under the root of the disk not [TS]

00:39:07   under the user there was no user right well that's that I mean this is why [TS]

00:39:13   things got a little bit interesting i was ten came along right things get a [TS]

00:39:16   little bit tricky right [TS]

00:39:18   and that's why we started but i don't remember who is a beta that actually hid [TS]

00:39:23   anything outside of user I'll man i think that their wireless I think i [TS]

00:39:30   mighta been floated but yeah they went back and forth a lot of those things [TS]

00:39:34   yeah oh let me take a break my word [TS]

00:39:38   yeah you think several thank our first 41 minutes and you haven't even gonna [TS]

00:39:42   show you it's our good friends at audible.com this episode of the show is [TS]

00:39:49   sponsored by audible.com they have more than a hundred and eighty thousand [TS]

00:39:56   audiobooks and spoken word audio products and you can get a 30-day free [TS]

00:40:02   trial for all of it at audible.com / talk show so if you want to listen to it [TS]

00:40:09   article has it they've got audio books from virtually every genre anytime [TS]

00:40:12   anywhere you can play audibles audiobooks on phones tablet computers [TS]

00:40:18   most Kindles and even ipods I mean even sponsoring the show and other podcast [TS]

00:40:23   for many many many years because it makes sense because guess what podcast [TS]

00:40:27   anybody is listening to me talk about audible right now you are somebody who [TS]

00:40:30   enjoys listening to people talk to audio spoken audio content [TS]

00:40:35   I don't know how you're listening to me you're using you know your phone if [TS]

00:40:39   you're using your desktop got headphones on your pumping through your car [TS]

00:40:43   speakers but wherever you are whatever you're doing you like listening to [TS]

00:40:46   spoken word audio content so . audible with over a hundred and eighty thousand [TS]

00:40:51   of these things is something to look at [TS]

00:40:54   if to fill up the remaining time that you have to to listen to stuff i mean [TS]

00:40:57   don't stop listening to talk show but you know if you've got free time where [TS]

00:41:01   you wish that there was more stuff to listen to [TS]

00:41:04   ah audible is the one place that has more stuff than you'll ever be able to [TS]

00:41:08   listen to [TS]

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00:41:16   membership in any time when you subscribe to audible you can take risks [TS]

00:41:22   and try new authors and genres without regret because audible offers their [TS]

00:41:25   great listen guarantee if you start an audiobook and you don't like it bores [TS]

00:41:30   the hell out of your what [TS]

00:41:31   however it's not what you thought it was going to be you can exchange it for free [TS]

00:41:34   for another one cannot be better people do you know people who listen to a lot [TS]

00:41:38   of audio content you this is the place to go to so soak up more of it than [TS]

00:41:42   you'll ever get [TS]

00:41:43   so go to audible.com / talk show and get your 30-day free trial [TS]

00:41:47   thank you . able for sponsoring the talk show I didn't even have this in a note i [TS]

00:41:53   do I always prepare very copious and well-organized notes for the show yeah i [TS]

00:41:57   did not have a trip down memory lane [TS]

00:42:00   there's not much i like the mac i like the max so much when i was a freshman in [TS]

00:42:03   college and finally owned one and had it i spent my entire freshman year all of [TS]

00:42:07   my free time either playing games or hacking or dealing with the system [TS]

00:42:12   resources and in resident and didn't you know I didn't go out drinking or [TS]

00:42:17   anything like that [TS]

00:42:19   all I did recreation I just continued to play basketball I play basketball and I [TS]

00:42:23   sat in my dorm room staring at my mac LC staring at it and we didn't have a [TS]

00:42:29   network at the time there was no there was no internet in the dorms at Drexel [TS]

00:42:33   University at the time so you know what and modems were modems are so expensive [TS]

00:42:37   they're probably looking at a joke [TS]

00:42:40   yeah there are preposterous is why 291 9091 292 yeah I've told this story [TS]

00:42:46   before to wee-wee wired up the dorm room [TS]

00:42:50   kelvin hall at drexel with the phone net forget what they were called but they [TS]

00:42:55   were these little and they were these were pretty cheap you can get the order [TS]

00:42:58   amount of the back Mac world magazine or mac user you mail order these things [TS]

00:43:03   going to get yours from a connection was about 15 bucks and get a little about [TS]

00:43:07   the size of the mouse maybe even spark smaller than the mouths of the day and [TS]

00:43:13   it would plug into the serial port of your mac and then I was a phone [TS]

00:43:17   connector on the other side on the box and so then you could use phone cable [TS]

00:43:21   just regular old telephone cable to create a local talk network [TS]

00:43:26   oh man executed that so you playing video games again right spectators the [TS]

00:43:31   name of the was that it was like a first-person shooter i get a [TS]

00:43:34   vector-based no pseudo vector based tank game [TS]

00:43:38   and we wired up the whole floor and we figured out you know and then I we [TS]

00:43:43   figured out that you know this is like the first time I learned how you know [TS]

00:43:46   like you know some electrical stuff work that there's nothing really magical [TS]

00:43:51   about phone cable it's just copper that's all it is [TS]

00:43:54   there's no it's just copper intellect you know the electrons move on it [TS]

00:43:58   doesn't you know and that the colors are just to match up [TS]

00:44:01   there's nothing different about him so yeah we figured out we could we we just [TS]

00:44:05   ran speaker wire through the drop ceiling all around the forget what floor [TS]

00:44:11   i was 18 for seventh floor of common Hall and then just ran phone wire [TS]

00:44:15   between anybody who wanted to get on the network or not you know and you don't [TS]

00:44:21   have to do any soldering or any just going to connect the dots make sure the [TS]

00:44:25   cable and is the electrical tape it up so we have the whole floor wired up [TS]

00:44:29   networking there's a chat app [TS]

00:44:32   oh my god it was like the first time I ever had African what was called boy it [TS]

00:44:35   somebody out there remember it but a mac it wasn't there when you just Hotwire it [TS]

00:44:41   was it now was way before that way it was but you can I guess you'd have to [TS]

00:44:46   know you didn't have a user ID you have a mac name though so your Mac would have [TS]

00:44:51   a home on the local top network so that's how you do you know that was like [TS]

00:44:54   your ID say but you could like effectively just sent teams to each [TS]

00:44:57   other which was amazing everything of course if everybody does this all the [TS]

00:45:01   time now but it was like my introduction to tell ya that was really cool and it [TS]

00:45:05   was all through a proper Mac interface there was no wasn't like you have to go [TS]

00:45:08   to a terminal type application or anything like that it was great yeah and [TS]

00:45:13   then we found out the kids on the floor above us had done the same thing and did [TS]

00:45:18   you bake them to you yeah there was a lot of trash let's call it an internet [TS]

00:45:22   there's a lot of trash talking about who's better at inspector and so we ran [TS]

00:45:26   some wire outside my room up to the 16 is created named yeah and then one day [TS]

00:45:34   the guy i forget them is title but whoever it was he was the guy who's that [TS]

00:45:38   in charge of the that dorm [TS]

00:45:40   yeah you know like I forget his title but the guy that was in church but there [TS]

00:45:45   wasn't like a name sounds like an eighties villain [TS]

00:45:48   yeah well he is a nice guy i just it was it was a very eight [TS]

00:45:51   keezmovies situation where i got a knock on the door and was told to come down [TS]

00:45:55   and meet him it was me and the guy above me who's thing says his smoking jacket [TS]

00:46:00   with like one of those candy with the candy cigarettes and the dorm faced [TS]

00:46:05   south or at least my side of the dorm face south and so it caught the [TS]

00:46:11   afternoon sunlight the afternoon sunlight came into our dorm [TS]

00:46:14   he said he was coming up the street yesterday and no notice the very bright [TS]

00:46:19   this is where we were where we screwed up is that we just use speaker wire [TS]

00:46:22   instead of we didn't really try to disguise it and that the the copper of [TS]

00:46:26   that speaker wire really it was bright it like blinded him and he saw like a [TS]

00:46:29   very bright line between our dorm rooms and we got closer and figure out what it [TS]

00:46:34   was you know that this is a fire hazard and we you know got to take this down [TS]

00:46:38   immediately and he obviously and I tried to explain that and I'm i think i think [TS]

00:46:44   i'm correct that it was not a fire hazard [TS]

00:46:47   it dont think theres not flotation right there's not a voltage you know it's not [TS]

00:46:51   our husbands also not a dumb suggestion [TS]

00:46:55   no not a dumb suggestion and I could totally see why as a someone with a job [TS]

00:46:59   that you know ya needed to deal with this [TS]

00:47:03   so we start always I will get right on it will take it right down and and all [TS]

00:47:06   we did was take down the bridge between the two floors of course and hope that [TS]

00:47:10   he didn't make any kind of spot inspection because it also seemed clear [TS]

00:47:16   he had no idea he i think he did because he saw it he thought it was a connection [TS]

00:47:20   between my room and the kid above his room not a connection between like 30 [TS]

00:47:24   dorm gray those were the days can't compete with that maybe could be used to [TS]

00:47:36   look at shielded wire little bit more gonna get ya [TS]

00:47:42   don't ya think we could have you no money was money was a problem though I [TS]

00:47:46   mean this was a network that we you know other than that with everybody had a [TS]

00:47:48   fifteen dollar box data by themselves and i would say the rest of it cost us [TS]

00:47:52   about ten dollars [TS]

00:47:54   yeah wherever wherever we went to buy the speaker wire in bulk and the DA [TS]

00:47:58   electrical tape [TS]

00:48:00   I like that you stepped up from just using the like sort of the 10 that you [TS]

00:48:04   can get from like gum wrappers burning off the paper side and that is using the [TS]

00:48:09   10 and just kinda you're having it together [TS]

00:48:12   I'm trying to google the name of this app and I cannot find it i don't know [TS]

00:48:15   how did because it the because it was something that was only abuse in the [TS]

00:48:19   maybe ladies very late eighties and early nineties it all predates the [TS]

00:48:23   internet and predates google so i know it's like impossible you know why a used [TS]

00:48:29   to go to work I was thinking about right for old-school unix names [TS]

00:48:33   yeah i mean i wasn't a unix name it was a total Mac think it was not to support [TS]

00:48:36   but like like a brief on it [TS]

00:48:39   yeah it was like wasn't wasn't talk like something you could do local talk about [TS]

00:48:45   it but that no yeah local chakra see a protocol but talking unix yeah i [TS]

00:48:52   remember talk and then there was like variants of it like and talk and yeah [TS]

00:48:56   Amy and I used to use that extensively because I've been entirely retro episode [TS]

00:49:05   of the show so amy was in Pittsburgh and I was in Philadelphia and even though [TS]

00:49:09   it's still the state of Pennsylvania it was still this is out ancient the early [TS]

00:49:13   nineties were there was long-distance phone calls were still a thing so we [TS]

00:49:17   used to read just by talking a few minutes a week we'd rack up a hundred [TS]

00:49:20   dollar-a-month phone bill which was massive college student said there was [TS]

00:49:26   no way to to cost-effectively speak on the phone from pittsburgh to [TS]

00:49:31   philadelphia and then we just got you know we got email and email each other [TS]

00:49:35   and then [TS]

00:49:36   when we discovered like talk and talk but to be we had to use them like she [TS]

00:49:42   had to use it from like a lab rat pit at university of pittsburgh she didn't have [TS]

00:49:48   a computer in your dorm and eventually i think i got a modem soon enough but i [TS]

00:49:52   think when we first started doing it I might have had to go to the lab to so [TS]

00:49:54   we'd have to like schedule a time because you wouldn't be able to to get a [TS]

00:49:58   nice you know like like the whole idea of how do you start texting with [TS]

00:50:03   somebody is is a totally different problem when you don't have that the [TS]

00:50:08   phone with you at all times and there's no better sexy talk and scheduled time [TS]

00:50:12   in the lab right that but it worked [TS]

00:50:17   it was amazing you can tell you that you can see what each other was typing at [TS]

00:50:20   the same time to at least with one of them the one we like the best I don't [TS]

00:50:23   like character by character yeah it was like smelly delete yeah yeah I just that [TS]

00:50:27   and you can make jokes with it you know it was good yeah good way to like make [TS]

00:50:31   jokes where you type something and then delete delete [TS]

00:50:34   yeah I'm of two minds that I'm kind of glad that people don't get to see what [TS]

00:50:37   it was about to say but i remember those apps when it was like you have to be [TS]

00:50:42   careful [TS]

00:50:43   yeah I like it [TS]

00:50:47   3-digit icq code at one point which I never used to remember i think you know [TS]

00:50:56   I yeah I never really used it really black mostly pc think yeah and I [TS]

00:51:03   remember I remember not getting there was like a real eye-opener me where I i [TS]

00:51:06   heard of it i thought no i don't think i ever signed up for it and then it but it [TS]

00:51:09   was like six months after i became aware of it when I realized that that that the [TS]

00:51:15   name was upon because I all your IRC and I you know IRC was just internet relay [TS]

00:51:20   chat i did use that of course and then I thought icq was just the same thing [TS]

00:51:26   where it had meant something and I didn't realize that it was icq yeah it's [TS]

00:51:30   yeah we got a cute name [TS]

00:51:32   this explains why i had no interest in using yeah well I also at the time did [TS]

00:51:38   not have any interest in talking to people that weren't in front of me I [TS]

00:51:42   think [TS]

00:51:43   has changed as they have become employed you still looking like i am i'm tweeting [TS]

00:51:52   I'm going to tweet here this is alive [TS]

00:51:53   there's a tweet livejournal actually anyone remember the name of the early [TS]

00:51:57   nineties chooser extension for instant messaging on local talk let's see if [TS]

00:52:01   Twitter can see if Twitter kenmare can consider the day [TS]

00:52:07   yeah yeah filipino going to look to live audience right i just want to say we [TS]

00:52:14   actually had a plan like I have an army outlined a document here but that's what [TS]

00:52:19   we're gonna talk about it i'm gonna do and you know what the first one was [TS]

00:52:22   Prince right we did that and we're still good but what's next on your army or was [TS]

00:52:30   it the ben thompson Apple yeah the actual services right yeah so yeah and I [TS]

00:52:34   don't want to drag you back to this because I love have done however we [TS]

00:52:37   filled it up i'll just wait until my Twitter replies have their yeah we'll [TS]

00:52:41   get back today I'm so how would you summarize Ben Thompson 10 times a great [TS]

00:52:47   piece on st. Thompson is a person you don't know the best time someone who's [TS]

00:52:51   this [TS]

00:52:52   don't like a yeah it's difficult I kid like it had a good pieces weekly free [TS]

00:53:00   may take that to hurt his weekly free for everyone's protector II column this [TS]

00:53:05   week was either really area is always good but i thought this one was [TS]

00:53:09   particularly good yeah i'm more or less arguing that all right [TS]

00:53:14   one of the things that makes apple very unique i'm gonna try to summarize this [TS]

00:53:17   very quickly is that apple doesn't have product divisions there's no Mac [TS]

00:53:22   division at the logical way for a company that sells what apple sells [TS]

00:53:26   would be to have a mac division and iphone division probably a separate ipad [TS]

00:53:31   division [TS]

00:53:32   although there's you know you could argue whether an ipad maybe in them in [TS]

00:53:36   the eye and iphone division a new watch division at seventh and they don't TV or [TS]

00:53:43   accessories be any accessories division the TV being the thing and they don't [TS]

00:53:48   that's not how the company has been setup it it that's the first thing and [TS]

00:53:52   probably the most important thing that Steve Jobs did when he came back in [TS]

00:53:56   1997a I was dismantled that sort of thinking and it put in what would what's [TS]

00:54:03   best called I mean this is the part where Ben Ben Ben can smart talk is [TS]

00:54:08   because he actually you know like knows the business school terminology and we [TS]

00:54:12   just 11 me when you asked me to talk about this I'm like seriously like well [TS]

00:54:17   but that hasn't stopped me on it like its gonna go guy but this side of is [TS]

00:54:21   anyway because it's functional vs divisional right you just described [TS]

00:54:25   divisional right [TS]

00:54:26   Apple works as a functional structure and you know there have been exceptions [TS]

00:54:31   the ipod division was sort of an exception to this but they got rid of [TS]

00:54:36   that and wait let's define why the ipod division was a separate from that [TS]

00:54:43   because it had its own OS and it's running right of the manufacturing trust [TS]

00:54:50   yeah it made sense for and I think it sort of evolved naturally and it wasn't [TS]

00:54:54   really seen as an exception but simply that it just was just made sense [TS]

00:54:59   especially in the early years [TS]

00:55:01   yeah I'm and I really don't think it's overstating it that that the decision to [TS]

00:55:06   go with a stripped down version of OS 10 as the OS for the original iphone [TS]

00:55:14   instead of a a you know muscled-up version of the ipod OS or some other new [TS]

00:55:24   new OS in know in the mindset of the I've ipod OS and interpersonal games [TS]

00:55:32   right right exactly what was it called it takes you pics opx I think either p I [TS]

00:55:38   xof PX I oh yeah i think it was p IXO but yeah it was an embedded operating [TS]

00:55:43   system you know 44 get a license and heavily modified right i think i'm being [TS]

00:55:50   fair in describing that as a including all of you know the early ipods as ever [TS]

00:55:58   more computer like electronic gadgets and then the other mindset [TS]

00:56:03   it is and it just we did you know that the industry just had to wait until [TS]

00:56:08   computers got small enough and cheap enough and and ran with you know a low [TS]

00:56:13   enough energy to make ever more gadget like computers right [TS]

00:56:19   the iphone is a gadget like unix computer [TS]

00:56:24   I mean it really is it full you know it's a much better units computer than [TS]

00:56:27   most of the server's of you know the earlier part of our lives [TS]

00:56:31   well going I mean going back to what we were talking about the previously when I [TS]

00:56:37   stand first became the thing people all worried about like well unix rights at [TS]

00:56:41   these massive log files every night at midnight [TS]

00:56:44   ok you can't do that on a pc you know a few years later it's appropriate to be [TS]

00:56:53   using on a phone because of a lot of work that went into always 10 and no [TS]

00:56:57   soda taming unix back to be I guess more focused or don't you know [TS]

00:57:04   yeah boots i remember at the macworld where the original iphone was introduced [TS]

00:57:11   it was Macworld Expo january 2007 and it was it's the biggest sensation of all [TS]

00:57:16   sensations from to go into that but then it was doing the trade show was there [TS]

00:57:20   afterwards and I think I was doing a live episode of the talkshow did it with [TS]

00:57:30   cable sasser damn behavin wasn't there and so is Craig there too which is cable [TS]

00:57:36   it was just cable that time [TS]

00:57:39   yeah it gives you in this class boo three now is the different was a [TS]

00:57:43   different one we don't know that we had and we weren't in a glass booth and we [TS]

00:57:46   had an audience of people might have been after that one where where we did [TS]

00:57:52   it in the the glass booth which was weird but we're out on the open show [TS]

00:57:58   more the acoustics are terrible [TS]

00:58:00   I don't know where the audio is but it was just just we obviously knew we want [TS]

00:58:04   to talk about just mean cable sasser talking about this amazing iphone [TS]

00:58:08   and I just remember cable came out and we haven't I don't know 1,500 people in [TS]

00:58:12   front of us and cables and how many people how many of you guys are thinking [TS]

00:58:15   you're going to buy one right away and everybody's hand just shot up like just [TS]

00:58:19   shot up since I've never seen any product where every single person just [TS]

00:58:25   needed to have one right away it was amazing but anyway we're just smiling in [TS]

00:58:30   internet I couldn't buy one in Canada I was there I saw 1i bought it i like to [TS]

00:58:43   do and I've told the story before but all I could do for like a long time with [TS]

00:58:47   slide to unlock to call 911 that was it i spend a bunch of money on something so [TS]

00:58:53   incredible but you could use the only thing i could do is i want you to call [TS]

00:58:56   the police to get never asked me for abusing a feature on my new phone and [TS]

00:59:00   you can use it on Wi-Fi not until after jailbreak all that's right because that [TS]

00:59:07   I could even jailbreak it at I'm telling you all I could do is slide that thing I [TS]

00:59:10   totally forgot about that you had to unlock the carrier unlock it yeah you [TS]

00:59:16   had to get it unlocked by AT&T before it would even work as a ipod touch that's [TS]

00:59:22   right that's right yeah that's what I finally I was i slide the headline i [TS]

00:59:27   would've bought 12 I would have done the same thing it was like me buying the mac [TS]

00:59:31   as soon as jobs into the company would like next up but I was like a min let's [TS]

00:59:35   see what you got [TS]

00:59:37   so after the podcast I there was a friend and Apple are known for awhile [TS]

00:59:41   still there so I can't say who but somebody and and I knew that they did he [TS]

00:59:48   had disappeared for a while you know and in just disappeared in terms of like he [TS]

00:59:52   was obviously working on something that was all-consuming and it turned out he [TS]

00:59:57   was working on the you know [TS]

00:59:57   was working on the you know [TS]

01:00:00   first version was even called iOS yet and you know even then even though he [TS]

01:00:06   could reveal that the ask this is what I've been working on these didn't always [TS]

01:00:09   an apple person he still can't even off the record in private just you know and [TS]

01:00:12   you know just commiserating after the show wasn't like anything but I had [TS]

01:00:17   questions and you know would Apple friends always like to ask questions [TS]

01:00:20   they just sometimes don't answer them you don't have to get used to that and i [TS]

01:00:24   asked him i was like ok so if it's running even the most stripped-down [TS]

01:00:28   version of OS 10 conceivable just really really lighter weight and really take a [TS]

01:00:34   hatchet to all sorts of stuff that you know the demons and processes running in [TS]

01:00:38   the background is like that is going to take forever to turn on compared to an [TS]

01:00:43   ipod or like a regular cell phone and he just looked at me and smiled and he just [TS]

01:00:50   said yes as though yes there we did there's no way to avoid that but you [TS]

01:00:57   won't have to turn you know you what if you don't have to turn it off all the [TS]

01:01:00   time and I was like oh and i realize like that is interesting and I think did [TS]

01:01:05   that whole story was inspired by your like the way that like a unit most units [TS]

01:01:10   machines were configured that at the turn of midnight just start doing a spew [TS]

01:01:15   a whole bunch of automated system cleanup and log files and all this stuff [TS]

01:01:21   and rotate on and do all this crazy stuff and just because all the units [TS]

01:01:26   machines we knew to date did that doesn't mean that one that was built for [TS]

01:01:30   consumers would have to do that too [TS]

01:01:32   it's like you just step away and realize that that is a terrible assumption to [TS]

01:01:36   make [TS]

01:01:36   alright guys took that one step further in it and aid they didn't give you swap [TS]

01:01:46   space right and just explained that if you're using more memory then is [TS]

01:01:54   available to you [TS]

01:01:55   typical unix systems will try to make it available to you by granting you [TS]

01:01:59   disk-based swap out portions of whatever you working on [TS]

01:02:04   instead it would tell you you getting very close to the limit here and then [TS]

01:02:11   there wasn't even three strength right was like the second strike would say ok [TS]

01:02:15   what you did I just kill you your Apple go away and that brought a new [TS]

01:02:22   discipline to writing applications that it was foreign to the unix world where [TS]

01:02:27   you presume that you had you know if not complete control at least you could [TS]

01:02:37   marshal that the system into doing exactly what you wanted right especially [TS]

01:02:42   once we got to the point where disk space was if not infinite was at least [TS]

01:02:49   compared to ram infinite then once we started measuring hard disks in hundreds [TS]

01:02:57   of gigabytes at least maybe even the early maybe even like 40 80 gigabyte [TS]

01:03:02   sizes compared to ram that's just humongous and therefore unix is the game [TS]

01:03:08   of we'll just pretend ram is infinite and write out what you're using to disk [TS]

01:03:14   and move from disk back into actual ram what we need on-the-fly could work but [TS]

01:03:18   that's exactly why in layman's terms in I mean in this doesn't happen anymore if [TS]

01:03:23   you have SSDs and it probably doesn't happen anymore just because you don't [TS]

01:03:26   really most of us don't need swap or at least don't mean much but in the days of [TS]

01:03:30   spinning hard drives and low amount of ram when your system started to slow [TS]

01:03:34   down and you'd hear hard drive for feeling knowing all the time that [TS]

01:03:38   exactly why because it was constantly shuffling back and more inclusive visual [TS]

01:03:42   thing [TS]

01:03:43   well I'm kind of glad we did that memory lane thing right at the top of the show [TS]

01:03:46   it gets a lot more context of this kind of stuff with the other foot getting the [TS]

01:03:50   other philosophical aspect of traditional unix is that a process that [TS]

01:03:55   starts running will run until it processed the process itself besides [TS]

01:04:01   okay i'm done and now i'm leaving and you could have bugs that would crash the [TS]

01:04:05   thing you as a user could take [TS]

01:04:08   personal interaction and kill the process manually like did you know force [TS]

01:04:12   quit but the system itself would do whatever it takes to make sure that it [TS]

01:04:17   has bugs aside and user action aside you will run forever if you want to run [TS]

01:04:23   forever and iOS like you said said you need to be ready to die in a moment's [TS]

01:04:28   notice like traditional unix operating systems a bend over backwards and [TS]

01:04:34   service of the applications that are running if you have any data that iOS [TS]

01:04:39   bends over backwards right for the user right and for the interaction [TS]

01:04:43   interactivity interactions yeah and so the idea of as a as a proper iOS [TS]

01:04:48   developer is if you have any data that needs to be certain needs to be saved [TS]

01:04:52   you need to save it constantly and at all times at any time it changes save it [TS]

01:04:56   anytime it changes save it automatically because you might be killed at any [TS]

01:05:01   moment and that's fair game [TS]

01:05:03   you may be killed and then the user may come back to your lab and you're [TS]

01:05:06   expected to be in the same spot to pretend like nothing happened and yeah i [TS]

01:05:11   mean the home button used to just kill you [TS]

01:05:13   yeah everytime automatically USA at the home button that whatever was running [TS]

01:05:16   this [TS]

01:05:16   yeah you know I have that discipline i really do like in the denominator has [TS]

01:05:21   been hardcore the time it took for the prefer the animation to go back to the [TS]

01:05:25   home screen you were expected to be completely cleaned up [TS]

01:05:28   yeah you're good yeah got the boot but so anyway that that decision that [TS]

01:05:33   fateful decision to go the cut-down version of OS 10 route effectively [TS]

01:05:37   squeeze Tony Fadell out the door and sort of brought an end to that [TS]

01:05:41   functional arrangement and then in $MONTH 2011 [TS]

01:05:45   now that would be a division arrangement take ya the divisional manager I'm sorry [TS]

01:05:48   nnnn incorrect and then in $MONTH 2011 with the Scott Forstall now stir it [TS]

01:05:55   really ended it because effectively I think it's fair to say that Scott [TS]

01:06:01   Forstall ran in iOS division within Apple name maybe that's a little too [TS]

01:06:08   glib but it's you know it forestall that amount of maybe you know and there were [TS]

01:06:16   obviously some parts that were shared between os's but they tended to filter [TS]

01:06:20   back and forth [TS]

01:06:21   years later right like and there was even an event the one time that they [TS]

01:06:25   made that the theme of the event was called like the back of my mac back to [TS]

01:06:28   the Mac the Mac yeah and it was look we've recreated a bunch of these cool [TS]

01:06:33   technologies for iOS in the last few years and they actually these things [TS]

01:06:37   would make sense I'm know as 10 and so we've taken them back to the mac as [TS]

01:06:42   opposed to today's i would say extremely functionally a wine Apple where Craig [TS]

01:06:54   federighi he's T&J software is in charge of software and yes there's some [TS]

01:06:59   divisions and it seems like the watch OS team is sort of off on its own a but i [TS]

01:07:06   don't think in a contentious way it's just in a they have to put their heads [TS]

01:07:10   down [TS]

01:07:11   no I don't think it's contentious that you're right it's early days right [TS]

01:07:14   yeah exactly i think it makes sense for early days that you sort of get i think [TS]

01:07:18   you could probably say the apple TV is kind of in the same boat again but apple [TS]

01:07:23   TV is Right believe under 80 kia the I did think so but i don't i'm not [TS]

01:07:31   entirely sure I'm pretty sure now that you're right and so Ben Thompson's [TS]

01:07:47   argument is that this works great for devices [TS]

01:07:50   Apple has proven that it works great in it it explains apples continue you know [TS]

01:07:56   I wouldn't you know anything can end because it all depends on actual [TS]

01:07:59   execution they have to it's easy so long as you keep making great products and [TS]

01:08:04   that's actually a very you know the keep making great products is difficult in [TS]

01:08:09   and of itself but if you do it's easy to keep keep them popular and to keep the [TS]

01:08:14   integration between things that that makes apple stuff so you know famously [TS]

01:08:20   fun and easy and and and attractive to use [TS]

01:08:26   yeah and I in some ways that do think that it's folly to associate a the [TS]

01:08:35   success of one company with the prominence of one kind of model like you [TS]

01:08:43   don't whether one company succeeds or fails as a lot more to do with other [TS]

01:08:50   factors and other than the particular model like you can't you can't i don't [TS]

01:08:55   think you can look at any functional company and be like well they're bound [TS]

01:08:58   to be like Apple because that's not the truth [TS]

01:09:02   similarly don't think you can say that like I need company that follows a [TS]

01:09:06   division organizational pattern is going to become like DuPont which is his you [TS]

01:09:15   know his is example right right Ben's example is that for [TS]

01:09:23   excuse me I think it's pretty interesting is to compare apple today to [TS]

01:09:27   dupont from like a hundred years ago [TS]

01:09:30   first we're well on our way to go to one department became huge by building one [TS]

01:09:34   doing one thing which is making gunpowder and then 371 now is popular [TS]

01:09:40   and then post-war they realized that gunpowder was a technical level very [TS]

01:09:47   similar to making paint and a lot of stuff needed to be repainted me as a [TS]

01:09:52   world war one and so they decided to take a weary and see what seemed like a [TS]

01:09:57   natural area of growth for the two-point company was expanded into making paint [TS]

01:10:01   and it yet somehow they ended up losing tons of money on the paint business [TS]

01:10:05   because of even though it was similar to manufacture the market was entirely [TS]

01:10:10   different right so selling gunpowder they would sell two massive fires like [TS]

01:10:15   uh well I mean obviously the military be effective as it was I let the bullets [TS]

01:10:20   yeah selling pain could be selling a monopod that are trying to like and how [TS]

01:10:26   sir there you know this my business kind of think very different very different [TS]

01:10:30   marketing very different packaging very different distributions games right and [TS]

01:10:35   and you know they ended up having to switch and so they switched to [TS]

01:10:39   a division division right so there's a paint division and gunpowder division in [TS]

01:10:43   it and it worked out and then that became the model for a big corporations [TS]

01:10:50   ever since and then now apples soon as the exception as opposed to a hundred [TS]

01:10:55   years ago where were apples functional arrangement would have seen more natural [TS]

01:11:00   so the question is should Apple services be split out into a divisional dad this [TS]

01:11:07   is where this is the point of the whole point of Ben's thing is that this works [TS]

01:11:11   great for apple with devices it is not working out well for them with services [TS]

01:11:15   and apple themselves their executives on the quarterly call like lat three months [TS]

01:11:20   ago emphasize their efforts into services and it's Ben's argument is that [TS]

01:11:28   they should really should split services out into a separate division even [TS]

01:11:32   account you know even do a separate profit and loss for that division and [TS]

01:11:37   not even i think ok well II equivalents on and a little bit but it equivocate [TS]

01:11:44   they should say but a separate profit loss would allow them to track the [TS]

01:11:49   progress of the services division separately from the product division i [TS]

01:11:57   can see I i I'm not entirely convinced that is right but I can definitely get [TS]

01:12:01   it i see that he might be and and the difference is that i think and I think I [TS]

01:12:07   you know I think he makes this . too but that the traditional divisional nature [TS]

01:12:13   is what creates intercompany political conflict that blocks the data it often [TS]

01:12:22   leads to this is why a company never tends to disrupt itself that if Apple [TS]

01:12:28   had a culture like that then the the iphone where they never would have even [TS]

01:12:33   debated whether it was the ipod division that would make the iphone because of [TS]

01:12:37   course they did because the ipod was the new hot thing at apple at the name and [TS]

01:12:41   then the ipod division might have made designed an iphone that was designed to [TS]

01:12:45   make sure that that didn't keep people from wanting to still buy an ipod [TS]

01:12:50   and the little could just go forward a little bit more than the if there was an [TS]

01:12:55   iphone division and $STREET and steve jobs wanted to make a tablet they would [TS]

01:13:00   have been political and you know resistance within the company of but [TS]

01:13:04   what if these tablets make people not by as many iphones and so on and so forth [TS]

01:13:09   whenever the magnetization particular would say no way what about you know the [TS]

01:13:13   macbook macbooks are the heart and soul in the only part of our business it's [TS]

01:13:17   growing and clearly this tablet which you guys you've won even make a keyboard [TS]

01:13:22   for is something that's going to how could it not how can everyone of these [TS]

01:13:28   that you sell for only seven hundred and fifty dollars not mean that someone is [TS]

01:13:33   less likely to buy one of our things for $1,500 hey what I mean just look at the [TS]

01:13:37   new smaller ipad pro with it just have a couple of days ago updated MacBook right [TS]

01:13:47   uh I don't know I they're very much seem to be in the same spectrum moment [TS]

01:13:54   without question [TS]

01:13:55   I mean it's you know it's which one you prefer but it's in Hannah in a [TS]

01:13:59   divisional and I you know I i know enough about apple in time you know and [TS]

01:14:04   I have enough friends who work there and you do to that i'm not arguing that [TS]

01:14:08   Apple is a company without internal politics and without grumbling between [TS]

01:14:12   people who work on this and people who work on that or people who even if the [TS]

01:14:17   what they're working on isn't isn't even in conflict with each other but a lot of [TS]

01:14:22   times that the most astute critics of things within Apple that are subpar are [TS]

01:14:27   other people at Apple who work on something else who that the whole point [TS]

01:14:30   of the whole reason they work at Apple have a career Apple as they tend to be [TS]

01:14:33   very talented people with very high standards for how stuff works that they [TS]

01:14:37   get the Apple way I'd even remove the the provision that they work on [TS]

01:14:42   something else [TS]

01:14:43   yes honey i honestly think people that work at Apple or their own worst critics [TS]

01:14:47   that's it that's a fantastic . that is this true [TS]

01:14:50   honestly kind of what makes them write a great company right look at that kind of [TS]

01:14:54   the key right and that sometimes when you talk to people at Apple the people [TS]

01:14:58   who i think are the best and the people are my golf course of course you're [TS]

01:15:01   successful at Apple are the people who [TS]

01:15:03   you're exactly right they are the ones who know all the things that suck about [TS]

01:15:06   the thing that they work on and you say hey the new buddy call is really great [TS]

01:15:10   and they'll be like thanks but I mean come on and then they know everything [TS]

01:15:13   that's wrong with it and it's like oh yeah of course you work at Apple and the [TS]

01:15:16   people who want to brag about this stuff to work on your like you're not gonna [TS]

01:15:19   last long [TS]

01:15:20   yeah you know i mean we're talking on you and I think we were probably there [TS]

01:15:27   together we're talking to people worked on earlier iphones and telling them how [TS]

01:15:29   awesome that touch interaction is and then they're like oh my god i can get it [TS]

01:15:33   to go look if I do this in this way below 60 frames-per-second you can feel [TS]

01:15:38   like they knew all the pads to get to do something that would make scrolling or [TS]

01:15:42   whatever drop any 60 frames per second and they're like that's the seduction [TS]

01:15:47   yeah you just built the weather always but the time it ships to on to the next [TS]

01:15:50   thing right exactly but that's exactly why they keep getting better you're over [TS]

01:15:53   here is that they're exhausted by the end it's there it's what it just as a I [TS]

01:15:59   don't know as a better metaphor a you did you cook ever use sometimes I cook a [TS]

01:16:05   few things [TS]

01:16:05   ok so you know when you cook and then you like okay whatever that back over [TS]

01:16:10   here as well [TS]

01:16:11   ok sorry but whatever when you cook something and then you're you're eating [TS]

01:16:17   it and you're always there at the hallways and the harshest critic and [TS]

01:16:21   like a didn't work out so well I could have left this a little bit more [TS]

01:16:24   this could be a little bit more tender and everybody else is like would you [TS]

01:16:27   shut up and stop being a dick [TS]

01:16:29   yes I'm trying to enjoy this you know the meal and I'm always like yeah maybe [TS]

01:16:33   next time I'll do this and that's just because that's the way of my words and i [TS]

01:16:39   think it apple with software or hardware think that's what you're thinking it's [TS]

01:16:44   like okay that came out of the oven pretty good i'm happy clap that shift [TS]

01:16:49   now you know how do i improve on that [TS]

01:16:53   that's absolutely me does most of the cooking here and that's absolutely how [TS]

01:16:57   she is she's way wait she's our own harshest critic now and it's it to show [TS]

01:17:01   you if you're a good person a good worker who's focused on improving the [TS]

01:17:04   product that's the way your mindset has to be and if you're a sort of [TS]

01:17:08   self-centered person [TS]

01:17:09   who's more worried about your own career or just just the way other people [TS]

01:17:14   perceive you because you your your you know if I can influence very already [TS]

01:17:20   complex or something like that that then you're gonna you're gonna want to make [TS]

01:17:24   people think that whatever you've done is awesome and perfect and you know and [TS]

01:17:28   laugh at the competition and stuff like that you can see left the country [TS]

01:17:35   well yeah sometimes they suck but you know what I you know what I don't [TS]

01:17:38   totally know what you mean yeah it's like this there's a difference between [TS]

01:17:41   laughing at them and discounting yeah you still I still sometimes meet people [TS]

01:17:46   at Apple who and I'm exaggerating but it in some degree seem to buy into the [TS]

01:17:51   where Apple whatever we do is going to be the best you know sort of thinking [TS]

01:17:56   that the exceptionalism of Apple is just that's just the rules of the game or [TS]

01:18:01   whatever Apple makes his excellent just because it's apple now that's not my [TS]

01:18:04   fear that's played hard and African what I'm exaggerating that that you know [TS]

01:18:09   putting it in words like it but there's a certain mindset that you buy into that [TS]

01:18:12   even a little bit and it's I to me it's a very dangerous way of thinking and [TS]

01:18:17   it's a natural trap to fall into but the best people don't have that mindset I [TS]

01:18:26   let me interrupt the show breaking news to do to do to do the thing I was [TS]

01:18:30   talking about the ethernet old-school not ethernet what's up before you turn [TS]

01:18:34   it a local talk but it did work over ethernet either talk to while either [TS]

01:18:39   talk was like local talk over ethernet but that was expensive we couldn't do [TS]

01:18:43   that indoor anyway the name of the app was broadcast it was awesome it was [TS]

01:18:51   awesome at four locations just put forward and hadn't guessed that one [TS]

01:18:55   broadcast all the good name that's a great name i will see i will do my best [TS]

01:19:00   to find a link for the show notes that shows it so what do you think [TS]

01:19:10   about this service well I can kind of so-so in in a follow-up piece that is I [TS]

01:19:17   don't think its public at now is honest is a subscriber only newsletter which we [TS]

01:19:23   maybe you should ask him to make that given all the time of the few times he [TS]

01:19:27   really has have ever had anything like that whatever that now it's like a week [TS]

01:19:30   old [TS]

01:19:31   I'll see what I can do yeah I'm you clarify some of his points he gets a lot [TS]

01:19:38   more detail into into his thinking and and also acknowledges some of the d de [TS]

01:19:49   some trepidation I should say about like switching into it [TS]

01:19:55   switching and services into its own division but does bring out the point [TS]

01:20:01   that apple retail was Ryan has its own division for a long time right [TS]

01:20:06   because running in retail division is fundamentally different than winning you [TS]

01:20:13   know hardware/software organization is that not true phus services to yeah I [TS]

01:20:20   almost think that the online services are of a very closely analogous to the [TS]

01:20:24   stores where the services are just glue that that that is there to make the [TS]

01:20:32   devices better the devices are still the fundamental business of the company and [TS]

01:20:37   the services are just a the stores are just a way to get more of the devices [TS]

01:20:42   sold and the services are just a way to make the devices better once you on them [TS]

01:20:47   it's like what the stores are before you have the new Apple device in your hand [TS]

01:20:52   the services are to what you do with it after you open it open it starting well [TS]

01:20:57   okay so it is where I don't know if I'm even playing devil's advocate but I'm [TS]

01:21:06   gonna come at this from a different aspect and the stores [TS]

01:21:13   ok [TS]

01:21:15   saying stories with just a way to push Mac products okay fine but are the [TS]

01:21:21   services just a way to push the devices or are they have things themselves well [TS]

01:21:27   as what Apple is kind of been saying but I think though that the all of it isn't [TS]

01:21:34   further serving the apple brand as a whole right i mean because that's why [TS]

01:21:40   the stores are nice right there the nicest stores some of the nicest stores [TS]

01:21:44   i've ever seen that sell any products anywhere in that that there is famously [TS]

01:21:49   don't go full Trump on this but they are they IM not IM just joking but and [TS]

01:21:54   they're very anti-trump Ian in their design yes sir [TS]

01:21:58   yeah whether they're not or no opposite yeah they are you know architectural [TS]

01:22:02   very minimalist I you know but that famously you know that the earlier [TS]

01:22:10   stores i don't think they use the same attorney more but they got a special [TS]

01:22:13   kind of limestone from Italy that Steve Jobs had seen while while traveling in [TS]

01:22:17   Europe and all sorts of crazy stuff that they do to make every detail right now [TS]

01:22:21   it's not like hey let's there's no sense of cheaping out in the stores and i [TS]

01:22:25   think that the services should be the same way where it's not like well this [TS]

01:22:29   is just an afterthought to help that I think they should they should be thought [TS]

01:22:32   of as these things that are first-class parts of the Apple brand and the Apple [TS]

01:22:38   you know customer experience [TS]

01:22:40   ok so what are the surfaces can you write them i guess that sounded like I'm [TS]

01:22:48   challenging you i don't i'm honestly I'm like okay what are they [TS]

01:22:52   well the ones area one area where I disagree with Ben and we do it on the [TS]

01:22:56   podcast occasionally is he has a lower opinion of apples online services than I [TS]

01:23:01   do [TS]

01:23:02   I actually think apples online services are a lot better than they get credit [TS]

01:23:05   for and I think in many cases many cases suffer from just that the notion the [TS]

01:23:14   basic notion that people believe Apple makes great devices and creamy services [TS]

01:23:17   and by starting with that framework in their mind they're a lot more likely to [TS]

01:23:22   have a two to focus on the negative aspects of of Apple services and then [TS]

01:23:26   secondly some of them suffer from [TS]

01:23:29   a bad first impression when maps is a great example of that where a lot of [TS]

01:23:34   people some people and and real-world usage Apple maps is off the charts its [TS]

01:23:38   way by far and away the most popular map service for iphone and iOS users and [TS]

01:23:46   part of that is just by nature of being pre-installed but secondarily it's [TS]

01:23:50   gotten a lot better and I am i arguing that is it is as good as Google Maps no [TS]

01:23:57   but i don't i don't use google maps anymore just because I never I never you [TS]

01:24:02   know that that whole like i'll keep the app installed because if Apple maps lets [TS]

01:24:06   me down i use google maps that hasn't happened to me in forever at least since [TS]

01:24:10   the transit came to New York and Apple maps and I think in arguably anybody who [TS]

01:24:16   looked at Apple maps just the general state of how much is mapped into much [TS]

01:24:19   detail its it much improved so i'm not i'm not as down on services overall and [TS]

01:24:26   maps is just one example but anything like that map's I message iCloud more [TS]

01:24:32   wait let's so let's take I message as a as a service the value proposition have [TS]

01:24:42   I message is that it's encrypted and to end and it works across all your devices [TS]

01:24:48   and that's all you iOS devices and your Mac okay all your Apple devices [TS]

01:24:55   how do you ensure it that is true if like how do you put that into web [TS]

01:25:00   browser [TS]

01:25:01   I don't think this should I wouldn't ok so that limits the value of the service [TS]

01:25:06   to write the Apple devices right that's what i'm saying is i see like Heidi [TS]

01:25:09   breakout services [TS]

01:25:11   apart from the devices that they support right I see what you mean you're saying [TS]

01:25:14   you know i can t make a division that is all about so Microsoft did it and and [TS]

01:25:19   you were on board for it with a sure where they could just be like you know [TS]

01:25:25   what screw windows and office which is going to make an awesome service [TS]

01:25:29   yeah that's different than what Apple can do with the services that they [TS]

01:25:35   currently run because they seem a [TS]

01:25:39   you know quite integrated with the you know the devices or at least the notion [TS]

01:25:45   that they have trusted endpoint and it's it kind of conflicted you're going to [TS]

01:25:51   start saying hey and you report your own profit and loss and you're not allowed [TS]

01:25:56   to expand to windows or android right web are are you cutting you know [TS]

01:26:02   youryour that becomes a strategy Jackson like you're cutting them off at the [TS]

01:26:06   knees [TS]

01:26:06   you're saying we're going to count we're going to we want you to be as profitable [TS]

01:26:08   as you can but where we're setting rules that will prevent you from being as [TS]

01:26:12   profitable as as you could be as it just as an independent entity because we [TS]

01:26:16   think it serves the company's interests over all right and I don't think they [TS]

01:26:22   face that with the detail because it couldn't really conflict with air [TS]

01:26:31   yeah there weren't any rules there weren't at the water any strategy tax [TS]

01:26:34   type rules imposed upon the apple store that held them back right for example [TS]

01:26:39   they're not sure that if Ron Johnson back in the day had said to Steve Jobs [TS]

01:26:44   hey I some of these people are coming in and they want to buy windows laptops to [TS]

01:26:49   can we sell some dell windows you know Dell laptops on the table across from [TS]

01:26:54   the powerbooks and jobs would have said you're fired right but he wouldn't have [TS]

01:26:59   done that actually it did that actually wouldn't have actually helped the apple [TS]

01:27:03   stores make more money that if it's in theory I you could see out you know [TS]

01:27:07   turning it into more of like a best buy where they sell anything and everything [TS]

01:27:10   defeats the whole purpose which was to focus you know that by putting all the [TS]

01:27:15   apple stuff together and showing that it was different [TS]

01:27:18   actually made it more likely that they would sell them but they did sell [TS]

01:27:20   accessories that went on apple and even competed with apple stuff like [TS]

01:27:25   headphones [TS]

01:27:26   yeah yeah they still do ya still did [TS]

01:27:32   and I'm gonna take a lot of beads which is the biggest one but they don't impose [TS]

01:27:36   a rule on the that you can only sell apple stuff like headphones you know [TS]

01:27:40   it's we can't you can't sell a book this was the book that jobs got yanked the [TS]

01:27:46   house was one a long time ago i forget which it yeah I was funny just what I'd [TS]

01:27:56   I honestly admire dick did just preciousness of that kind of stuff [TS]

01:28:01   why didn't did they used to sell books is that I don't know I but I mean you [TS]

01:28:07   remember the story i'm sure you've heard about it right [TS]

01:28:11   I do remember what I mean it wasn't even that long ago but I remember when I used [TS]

01:28:15   to sell tons and tons of box software [TS]

01:28:17   yeah yeah well some of your friends like on me and that you know shit like [TS]

01:28:23   delicious monster had some stuff [TS]

01:28:25   oh yeah we're definitely know people who had I think BP and it was still on in [TS]

01:28:29   boxes at the time yeah yeah I'm Karen fact I know that BB at some point was [TS]

01:28:35   still in the box and when it was in a box it was in the apple store's security [TS]

01:28:39   text box software is a herd [TS]

01:28:43   I mean people hit the App Store wow the thirty percent rockstar than thirty [TS]

01:28:48   percent you lose on the app store is nothing compared to what you lost $MONEY [TS]

01:28:51   in bonds software examine we could do all show about it but it's and you know [TS]

01:28:55   it from the games too [TS]

01:28:57   I mean it was exactly the same probably even worse because that there was more [TS]

01:29:01   money involved or it but it i mean you literally buying spots to be like how [TS]

01:29:08   much money is it going to cost us to have it at Foot level part of the reason [TS]

01:29:12   that like not even I level like foot level it's a protection racket is it was [TS]

01:29:16   yeah it was like okay we'll take it but we're only we're going to put it on the [TS]

01:29:20   bottom shelf which is like ankle level was really got to talk to him into [TS]

01:29:24   taking it right like dinners and like and like just flirty girls like to hold [TS]

01:29:32   it was it's a nightmare but the night like talking to sales did shake not cool [TS]

01:29:39   I'm glad all of that aspect is gone but at the same time it's like still not [TS]

01:29:45   great in terms of actually getting you know the way the absolute working with [TS]

01:29:51   this I don't want my box at the ankle level well then you have to pay [TS]

01:29:57   yeah and it was exactly why a person I'm not a jagged basement and there was no [TS]

01:30:03   way to sell like even a relatively small app that you knew would appeal to like [TS]

01:30:08   consumers and that you'd want to be like a consumer-friendly price there was no [TS]

01:30:11   way to like price it accordingly because so much money came off the top that you [TS]

01:30:15   had to charge like $75 that just as a starting point if not more [TS]

01:30:22   I don't we can come back to let me take a break and thank our next sponsor it's [TS]

01:30:26   our good friends at Squarespace this episode is brought to you by Squarespace [TS]

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01:30:42   with squarespace much better question would be what type of website you can't [TS]

01:30:46   build with squarespace Squarespace is gotten amazing it's always been a good [TS]

01:30:52   product always been a good hosting service but you go to squarespace and [TS]

01:30:56   they take care of everything you start an account you start you tell them what [TS]

01:31:00   type of site you want to build a store a blog podcast a portfolio site if you're [TS]

01:31:06   an artist anything like that just tell you know you go through its all visual [TS]

01:31:10   then they show you templates for that type of site and you pick a template and [TS]

01:31:15   you pick features that you want that you have and then you see it [TS]

01:31:19   what you see is the actual website that you would have if you turn it on and [TS]

01:31:22   make it live and any changes you make you don't make the code you just make [TS]

01:31:26   them when you're logged into your account as the account owner you just [TS]

01:31:30   make them visually it is truly wysiwyg brought to the web where you're in the [TS]

01:31:36   web browser looking at your site and you just move this stuff and change the [TS]

01:31:40   stuff right there as you're looking at it [TS]

01:31:42   it is phenomenal and they've you guys have heard of square space for a long [TS]

01:31:46   time I mean they have been around for awhile but they're relentless on moving [TS]

01:31:51   this forward the plat whole platform forward and making it more and more [TS]

01:31:55   powerful and expanding into more and more things professionally designed [TS]

01:32:00   websites really really amazing looks very modern intuitive and easy-to-use [TS]

01:32:06   tools for editing and publishing and changing they even take care of stuff [TS]

01:32:09   like domain names if you need one [TS]

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01:32:17   you might want to just go there see if you can make it in square space for free [TS]

01:32:21   at squarespace.com and then when you do sign up just make sure to use that offer [TS]

01:32:25   code Gruber and you will save ten percent and they'll know that you came [TS]

01:32:29   to them from here from the show so my thanks to squarespace yeah I don't know [TS]

01:32:34   back to whether or not agree with them [TS]

01:32:36   I don't know it makes a good case maybe the answer is sort of a half-and-half [TS]

01:32:41   and I don't know maybe that's stupid [TS]

01:32:43   maybe I'm trying to have it both ways but maybe i would say not so much the [TS]

01:32:48   profit-and-loss aspect of it and again I message is another example how are they [TS]

01:32:53   supposed to make money money on my message [TS]

01:32:55   there's no money you know but if you know compared to these other chat [TS]

01:33:00   services like what's happened and we chat and stuff like that i think if you [TS]

01:33:04   broke my message i mean they can strategically there is no way to break [TS]

01:33:08   it out but just in terms of daily active users which is like this measurement [TS]

01:33:11   term that you know investors love to hear at least at the moment I message is [TS]

01:33:16   worth billions but there's no real way that they have a plan to make money [TS]

01:33:20   they're not going to start shooting ads through I message and i think i think if [TS]

01:33:24   anything at I message is one of the most obvious a soda-can arguments to breaking [TS]

01:33:34   and services out from the rest of the company and in that getting have blue [TS]

01:33:44   balloon is awesome [TS]

01:33:46   yeah and I message being part of the iphone experiences is huge here it and [TS]

01:33:54   and and so in one in so in his first piece band argues that people buy [TS]

01:33:59   iphones for the software and hardware and I agree but I message is a big thing [TS]

01:34:05   for me it really is i remember texting you back in the day and will cost [TS]

01:34:10   seventy-five cents a text right because we're across the international border [TS]

01:34:15   crossing international borders talking about mad men or whatever and that [TS]

01:34:20   racked up pretty quick and I like you but I don't like you that much [TS]

01:34:25   that's a dollar yeah but ya know I message fix that so that's great and [TS]

01:34:33   yeah sure whats app could and like a bunch of other stuff but I I think I [TS]

01:34:40   message is one of those things that ties closely to iOS or Apple devices did [TS]

01:34:47   argues for a better into creation of services with apple products the whole [TS]

01:34:54   thing about preferring blue bubbles to green bubbles even if you take cost [TS]

01:34:58   aside even if it's us to us and so you know that it's out of your jacket is [TS]

01:35:03   obviously subjective it bothers some people because it's sort of a if not [TS]

01:35:10   classism it is some sort of a try to listen yet tribal as about say tried [TS]

01:35:18   mentality so you same thing tribalism which it just is innately offensive or [TS]

01:35:24   maybe offensive is too strong a word but people object to it and for good reason [TS]

01:35:28   right that human beings have this natural instinct to be tribal and it's [TS]

01:35:33   that sort of thinking that leads if you take it to the extreme to you know [TS]

01:35:38   intolerance if not outright racism bigotry bigotry of what you want what [TS]

01:35:44   have you that that you really have to be conscious of it all the way up to the [TS]

01:35:46   top level and that therefore it's it's just unsavory and I get that I really do [TS]

01:35:51   I joke about the blue bubbles and green bubble sometimes but I get it when [TS]

01:35:54   there's people who really you know push back on that I do get just I [TS]

01:36:00   I honestly don't think that was an intentional design decision in order to [TS]

01:36:05   ostracise anybody know I don't know either i think that Katie's once across [TS]

01:36:08   some money and these ones aren't [TS]

01:36:10   yeah and i think it was worth knowing you know who had them [TS]

01:36:14   yeah but there's an interesting objective version you know not [TS]

01:36:18   subjective but object of advantage to it at least one which is that you know that [TS]

01:36:28   the emoji you send are going to look the same i just saw an article this week I [TS]

01:36:32   didn't link to it i don't know why i didn't do it from during fire but there [TS]

01:36:34   was an article that somebody did a study that showed that people interpret it [TS]

01:36:40   emoji from different platforms differently and that means certain code [TS]

01:36:43   points like you know it's like face with the you know grinning teeth and it it [TS]

01:36:50   has a different emotional effect you know based on the iOS version of it [TS]

01:36:54   compared to the Android or Twitter right and you know just subtle cues and it [TS]

01:36:59   just some of the each vendor that map [TS]

01:37:02   I don't know if everybody know is getting it like what you see on your [TS]

01:37:05   screen is not what somebody else sees on their screen right hand and face with [TS]

01:37:09   gleaming teeth on your screen may look I don't I don't know this but like let's [TS]

01:37:16   say like the two buck teeth on the other screen like so it looks like you're just [TS]

01:37:22   having us wide smile on your screen but you look like you're sending it like a [TS]

01:37:28   hick right of stereotypical hick in Oregon to the other person on the screen [TS]

01:37:34   and a when you're dealing with a particularly dense communication stream [TS]

01:37:43   like emoticons that becomes problematic right right users and I don't know that [TS]

01:37:48   maybe people don't worry about it or I do a little bit cuz i find i always you [TS]

01:37:53   know I mean it's a shocker given my career I really it pains me to think [TS]

01:37:58   that I'm not commit you know people aren't understanding what i'm trying to [TS]

01:38:02   communicate as clearly as possible [TS]

01:38:05   and have you given into murder constant chat i don't think we do it [TS]

01:38:11   no i-i've never did I and an emoji of save me from it i've never really was a [TS]

01:38:16   big user of of like the the ascii art you know smiley faces i mean IDK i'm not [TS]

01:38:21   going to say I never sent them but I've just found them to be too silly so I [TS]

01:38:27   didn't and yeah I think he used them with my I use emojis though I use emoji [TS]

01:38:32   now you know i'm not going to say like a teenager but I you know use it quite a [TS]

01:38:35   bit using more slack than anywhere else [TS]

01:38:38   yeah I use them on Twitter know sometimes I don't give a lot of thumbs [TS]

01:38:42   up on Twitter [TS]

01:38:44   oh yeah yeah because it's i find it to be exceptionally efficient you know [TS]

01:38:49   yeah that's what that's one there's one that across-the-board nobody's going to [TS]

01:38:52   misinterpret it doesn't matter how you drive a thumbs up or thumbs down [TS]

01:38:55   yeah it's kind of a sailboat like yeah I mean yeah I find it to be it's it's it's [TS]

01:39:02   a great addition to our you know it'sit's it said you know obviously I [TS]

01:39:06   thought it was silly at first consignment curmudgeon but once I opened [TS]

01:39:10   my mind to it I really thought this is great this is a great improvement and so [TS]

01:39:13   much better than ask yard you know colon going a friend its coverage [TS]

01:39:18   yeah i mean if I'm writing something there's no way I'm going to use it if [TS]

01:39:22   I'm reacting to something I feel better but I don't have ever spoken about this [TS]

01:39:27   in recent years i have spoken too i think you you would know you're closer [TS]

01:39:31   reader to know that in my writing I don't really use a lot of exclamation [TS]

01:39:34   marks no very yeah but in like email come on two hands an email i use them a [TS]

01:39:40   lot i use what i consider to be the friendly be friendly ! work and here's a [TS]

01:39:47   perfect example and it's a very common example is people often send me typo [TS]

01:39:54   reports maybe I've spelled a word wrong where I've made a little mark down here [TS]

01:39:57   or error in the post where I i used the wrong parentheses or I missed missed [TS]

01:40:02   something and you see you know like a raw URL that's clearly supposed to be [TS]

01:40:07   hyperlink and people will email me or Twitter be you know and say you got a [TS]

01:40:11   typo [TS]

01:40:11   well a lot of people it'sit's don't think everybody knows this it consider [TS]

01:40:17   correcting someone spelling or punctuation on dinner [TS]

01:40:19   not to be a faux pas at your you the person pointing out the error or the [TS]

01:40:23   jerk because you're pointing out you know I i love it i have i would rather [TS]

01:40:28   have a hundred people tell me about a spelling error matter and daring [TS]

01:40:31   fireball then to have it go on corrected because everybody thinks it's you know [TS]

01:40:36   either either thinks I'm sure someone else told him or I don't want to be the [TS]

01:40:40   jerk to tell to tell John that he has an airtight so and i try to I can't hide [TS]

01:40:45   sometimes sometimes and if i post and then go make coffee or go run an errand [TS]

01:40:49   and it's that the error is up for an hour I get a lot of them and it's almost [TS]

01:40:54   I'd like I can't be bothered to thank everybody but if i fix it right away i [TS]

01:40:58   try to thank everybody and I'll often right fixed comma thanks and put an [TS]

01:41:03   exclamation mark after the thanks because to me that reads as very [TS]

01:41:07   friendly and unambiguously what do I mean by fixed comma thanks ! to me it's [TS]

01:41:14   I don't know it's just maybe the way i read that ! it's fixed and a genuine [TS]

01:41:19   thanks [TS]

01:41:19   whereas if I wrote fixed comma thanks . I can see how that would be [TS]

01:41:24   misinterpreted naughty as yes as dry ya fiction [TS]

01:41:28   thanks yeah thanks for me thanks I think I think you only ever send me fixed the [TS]

01:41:34   additive you that I don't care it's not you know give me but I just because I [TS]

01:41:40   don't need it and I find and I added and and it years ago I mean I don't know how [TS]

01:41:46   many years ago I started doing that but it was uncomfortable with it because I'm [TS]

01:41:50   so uncomfortable with exclamation part more points to be to be at to me a false [TS]

01:41:56   sense of familiarity and friend yes you know and and to me and for example in [TS]

01:42:01   marketing materials almost every single ! that's used in any marketing material [TS]

01:42:07   is terrible it's a terrible and it means that whoever is is is Right doing a [TS]

01:42:12   copywriting is full of shit [TS]

01:42:14   it is is it is exactly why some people think the word marketing is a dirty word [TS]

01:42:18   and all good brands you know with good marketing either never use exclamation [TS]

01:42:24   marks or almost never and when they do there's some kind of good argument for [TS]

01:42:29   right but find me an ad from BMW with an exclamation mark and finally an ad from [TS]

01:42:33   apple with an exclamation mark and it's nearly impossible so anybody out there [TS]

01:42:38   and it's 80 and it's awful also a rookie mistake it's a mistake that someone [TS]

01:42:41   makes doing their own marketing when they're not used to doing marketing [TS]

01:42:44   because they think that their infusing the material with enthusiasm when what [TS]

01:42:49   they're really infusing it with his bullshit and an air of desperation and [TS]

01:42:56   says yeah yeah because they could say something completely accurate right but [TS]

01:43:01   when you put an exclamation mark it's like you're trying to really call [TS]

01:43:04   something out but i agree with you in casual communication and especially [TS]

01:43:10   these days you know it just a friendly way being like oh thanks I get it [TS]

01:43:18   long story single-leg mean it's it's a modifier if you reading it out line at [TS]

01:43:24   out loud it's a modifier on the way that that sound should be right like it goes [TS]

01:43:32   up [TS]

01:43:32   yeah well thanks oh thanks yes different 2 and as I do more podcasts as they do [TS]

01:43:39   priority i don't really do a lot of podcasts plural but as I podcast more [TS]

01:43:42   and more i have grown lazy and my writing not lazy but I've grown to [TS]

01:43:47   appreciate the fact that i can use inflection on a podcast in a way that [TS]

01:43:52   takes a lot more mental effort in prose to continue to be unambiguous about that [TS]

01:43:58   you know whether you're being sarcastic or not or something and when you need to [TS]

01:44:01   set up also a I think it doesn't help you [TS]

01:44:06   ok that's a bad way to start a sentence but it doesn't help you that like a lot [TS]

01:44:11   of year in your linked list it's like one word you know [TS]

01:44:16   yeah the towards basically so if you then write with gravity its red in the [TS]

01:44:24   same voices like these one word retorts that you use in England list [TS]

01:44:29   mmm yeah i've used emoji on during fireball few times to just like twice [TS]

01:44:35   though happy i miss that at him [TS]

01:44:38   I need a better way to do it what's that is that had my dad's side I need to look [TS]

01:44:43   into it there is some sort of i wouldn't not that i would use it frequently but [TS]

01:44:46   there but part of what makes me unlikely to use it frequently is the whole issue [TS]

01:44:50   of avenging grab the rendering and not even being able to control the long-term [TS]

01:44:55   rendering on apple and iOS devices soonest if and when they're ever going [TS]

01:44:58   to redraw some of the some of the class yeah happy face could be a swastika like [TS]

01:45:02   next weekend you have no control right trying to see that I just sent you a [TS]

01:45:10   link to this bird story on the study that shows people interpreting emoji [TS]

01:45:15   differently in the way it's the one with gritting teeth is a really good one [TS]

01:45:18   because it's on all the other platforms and I don't know exactly which what the [TS]

01:45:22   name of the it's grinning face with smiling eyes [TS]

01:45:26   yeah I and apples glyph makes it look like somebody who is man I you ciera [TS]

01:45:34   keith it's not a smile and it's almost like you've just said the wrong thing [TS]

01:45:38   right right like like the look you would give if you just mentioned somebody's [TS]

01:45:43   son or like their mother hey how's your mother and then like something you know [TS]

01:45:48   all of a sudden you remember that their mother died recently [TS]

01:45:51   yeah something like that that the sort of green you would make in that [TS]

01:45:55   situation is seething like sorry about that [TS]

01:45:58   whereas the microsoft samsung LG and Google ones are all unambiguously a [TS]

01:46:04   toothy smile you know it's all happy they're all happy perfect example and so [TS]

01:46:10   there is there's a value I message in the fact that you and maybe people don't [TS]

01:46:14   think about it consciously but you're you're you know what the other person is [TS]

01:46:18   going to see what weight between that mean that I message should normalize to [TS]

01:46:29   what is evident i personally i prefer the apple logo i think it looks at days [TS]

01:46:35   and it's useful it's usable anyway that and I don't think that there's an it is [TS]

01:46:38   useful but doesn't match the grinning face with smiling eyes [TS]

01:46:43   well the other descriptions emoji even but even with the other ones this study [TS]

01:46:47   a sign you know old people on whether they think this is a negative [TS]

01:46:51   connotation or positive kind [TS]

01:46:52   station of the glove even among the other ones there's a fairly wide variety [TS]

01:46:56   they're all positive and apples is- don't- that group to wait closer [TS]

01:46:59   together did but but there's a difference like the difference between [TS]

01:47:02   Microsoft and Google is over over a point on a 5-point scale i agree that [TS]

01:47:07   there's my god a you come on do know the Bible Atlas is a four-point difference [TS]

01:47:13   between Microsoft and Apple in the negative Direction no no I'm not trying [TS]

01:47:17   to argue that on the case of this particular one that Apple is not an [TS]

01:47:21   outlier and i know i'm not i'm not arguing about it but I'm saying though I [TS]

01:47:26   even not counting Apple it's interesting to me that the ones who agree on the [TS]

01:47:31   basic sense of it still have a different [TS]

01:47:34   oh sure I that that and I think for most of the emoji that that's probably the [TS]

01:47:40   case i don't think any know i think most of them there is no outlier but there's [TS]

01:47:44   still a agree the other thing is context a emerging very suddenly make sense [TS]

01:47:55   without any words random right at least context of in in a conversation so while [TS]

01:48:02   you could look at like madden what this tested and say okay what do you think [TS]

01:48:07   about each one of these emoji you could feel totally different given the [TS]

01:48:12   researchers surveyed online respondents on how they interpreted the emojis [TS]

01:48:16   sentiment rating it on a scale from negative 5 strongly negative 2 plus 5 [TS]

01:48:20   strongly positive i have you know what okay what I don't think I've ever uses [TS]

01:48:28   happen emoji I our friend of the show pocket fastest he likes to use that [TS]

01:48:34   emoji as I as there as a person who is eight and observer of the uncomfortable [TS]

01:48:44   aspects of life [TS]

01:48:45   yeah right the impossible is what that says right he likes to document you know [TS]

01:48:51   that sort of with the weird and you know on on his one foot tsunami and yeah in [TS]

01:48:57   personal correspondence he will often you know is if I I that's one person I [TS]

01:49:02   know who has sent me that [TS]

01:49:03   LG but goodies face with smiling eyes is the name of that emoji do you think [TS]

01:49:13   Apple has accurately be rendered that notion [TS]

01:49:16   no I think not although so I male like the but although uncomfortable and [TS]

01:49:22   totally into yeah i think the problem with it is that it doesn't what it's not [TS]

01:49:28   the eyes it's the grin because to me a grin [TS]

01:49:31   I mean yeah maybe i'm wrong me but I to me a grim implies the smile that grin is [TS]

01:49:36   a subset of a smile [TS]

01:49:37   whereas that is absolutely not a smile now that's the ticket [TS]

01:49:42   that's it drawn to you tuesday nights like this should be if like the name of [TS]

01:49:46   that emoji should be embarrassed to sake [TS]

01:49:49   yeah yeah at which I really i firmly believe is it perfectly valid emoji to [TS]

01:49:57   have yeah and that's a great representation of it [TS]

01:50:01   yeah here's the definite dictionary definition of grin [TS]

01:50:05   it is a smile broadly especially in an unrestored manner with the mouth open [TS]

01:50:09   tennis appears the example Dennis appeared grinning use cheerfully as a [TS]

01:50:16   noun it is a broad smile so dad definitely I think that I think that the [TS]

01:50:22   winning team is in accurately rendered but now it's too late or is it I don't [TS]

01:50:27   know because if they change it then all sorts of things that all sorts of ways [TS]

01:50:32   that it's already been used are changed meaning until you talkin to and that's [TS]

01:50:39   the problem right emoji are words that when i send them to you change meaning [TS]

01:50:45   for the show's really I've I love her like I love it but its northern it says [TS]

01:50:52   this is nowhere near the list and stuff we're getting into the lung linguistics [TS]

01:50:55   i love it [TS]

01:50:56   I yeah and that is sort of the there is an advantage there to the old-school [TS]

01:51:01   ascii emoticon artwork where it's a little bit a little bit more defined [TS]

01:51:06   right like your semicolon might look different than my semicolon but I still [TS]

01:51:11   yeah i know stupid Winky when I see it right [TS]

01:51:16   a-and leaving now we got here a little so well for you . my message and [TS]

01:51:27   services and whether they should be broken apart and so we get asked i also [TS]

01:51:31   wonder I here at that one specifically morning and as I and I as I wonder that [TS]

01:51:41   the that's actually that the one we're talking about i'm looking at the study [TS]

01:51:46   now I should that I'll link to this study in in the show notes i promise i'm [TS]

01:51:50   copying basing now they have examples of the ones with the biggest Delta's though [TS]

01:51:55   gritting teeth one is not only his apple an outlier as the emoji that particular [TS]

01:52:00   the the distance from which that it there's no other emoji that they studied [TS]

01:52:05   that has a spread like that it just means something different [TS]

01:52:09   yeah it's actually and I think concentrating on that one in particular [TS]

01:52:12   actually you lose the general context of the study which is that even with the [TS]

01:52:17   ones where they're generally all compliant with the description people [TS]

01:52:21   have a different interpretation of of what they mean [TS]

01:52:25   intern at least the sentiment of being positive and right which i think is a [TS]

01:52:28   super interesting . you know that I think the verge and it's not a knock but [TS]

01:52:36   you know whatever they picked the most illustrative . because it's easier to [TS]

01:52:40   write about [TS]

01:52:41   well yeah I mean look at that you know that's clearly an outlier and that you [TS]

01:52:47   know makes you want to kind of learn more about it so it's really nice and [TS]

01:52:51   knock on them but it's like it really illustrates it look people on different [TS]

01:52:55   platforms will see different things [TS]

01:52:57   yeah Ben Thompson's but if he's listening if he does listen to the show [TS]

01:53:01   he's probably screaming at us that we're not talking about stickers which has [TS]

01:53:05   been a big ben's a big fan and study or of the chat services the ones that are [TS]

01:53:09   cross-platform like what's happened wechat those things have these things [TS]

01:53:15   called stickers which are like emoji but their custom to the service and it's [TS]

01:53:20   just sending an image like an emoji and you know maybe around the holiday [TS]

01:53:25   they'll come out with a custom a whole set of them about Christmas so instead [TS]

01:53:28   of just like an emoji [TS]

01:53:29   you've got like Santa Claus on Christmas tree you could have a whole set of [TS]

01:53:32   stickers all about christmas or or whatever or the world how is so down on [TS]

01:53:36   that but you know what would it wouldn't you know that i talked to more slack and [TS]

01:53:46   sometimes I don't even care that it actually respond to him but I'll do one [TS]

01:53:50   of those reaction emoji exactly and i have been you kind of got me on this [TS]

01:53:55   sticker stuff so I don't know I you know the more i talk about it with you and [TS]

01:54:05   more I'm starting to disagree with him I want to scream the end I should get a [TS]

01:54:09   money shot because he sees you he won't he's never done the show you has he [TS]

01:54:14   yeah we talked about it is i'm pretty sure he's gonna make sure let me look at [TS]

01:54:20   the archives it's gonna bet it's like three times at least in all right ten [TS]

01:54:34   times and it's now maybe five maybe I just search for Thompson on the page and [TS]

01:54:41   it shows up it'll show up twice for each one because I mention them in the title [TS]

01:54:45   and so yeah it took you know what he's never doing it again didn't know tell [TS]

01:54:52   you that right now didn't actually forget he's been on twice since august [TS]

01:54:55   last year and is probably more often than i am probably and four times in the [TS]

01:55:01   last year [TS]

01:55:03   what about Apple music is an apple music already sort of a standalone out man [TS]

01:55:12   and they they have to sort of do profit and loss on that I mean they know how [TS]

01:55:17   many subscribers they are and I know how much they're paying you know whether [TS]

01:55:21   they actually count it and in and hold it accountable and have goals for it and [TS]

01:55:26   you're getting fired if you don't meet this the way some people would some [TS]

01:55:30   companies winner divisions surely they know exactly how much Apple music is [TS]

01:55:35   making and how much it's costing and therefore they know whether it's [TS]

01:55:38   profitable or not and they know what the Delta is month-to-month I mean and we [TS]

01:55:43   know it because they leak things like the number of customers you know [TS]

01:55:47   subscribers it's very very committed hey I honestly it's like so bad and getting [TS]

01:55:54   getting back to the press tags a benz basic argument is that whatever gets [TS]

01:55:59   measured gets fixed [TS]

01:56:01   there's no way they don't know if Apple music is making losing money and it's [TS]

01:56:08   not that they say that they don't have profit and loss in the company is that [TS]

01:56:15   they be port one level of profit and loss right which is a very different [TS]

01:56:20   thing I don't think that means internally that they don't worry about [TS]

01:56:25   this kind of stuff and I message right i don't think that so they expanded what I [TS]

01:56:32   cloud drive storage [TS]

01:56:34   yes there's no way they did that without considering profit/loss no way [TS]

01:56:37   well of course not because they charge for that right you know is that clearly [TS]

01:56:42   they've got some numbers [TS]

01:56:44   yeah and in fact I'm telling the more talk about it the more I it's a great [TS]

01:56:48   piece but I still it the more i talk about it the more I think I disagree [TS]

01:56:52   that that's a guide totally agree that he has he's identified a problem [TS]

01:56:57   I don't think though we as proposed solution is right because to me [TS]

01:57:01   iCloud Drive another example where it they don't do profit and loss across you [TS]

01:57:06   know the way other companies do but you would never guess that by the way they [TS]

01:57:10   charge for iCloud storage right for based on the way that that they charge [TS]

01:57:15   for iCloud storage you would think the opposite you would think this is a [TS]

01:57:18   company where somebody in the iCloud division has a gun to their head that [TS]

01:57:22   they're supposed to make a lot of money on this [TS]

01:57:24   yeah because they charge more than anybody [TS]

01:57:28   yeah boy for why penny and there's another one to iCloud drive to me works [TS]

01:57:35   amazingly well I honestly in my experience and I know somebody out there [TS]

01:57:40   is going to disagree and think that i'm smoking Apple dope or something but I i [TS]

01:57:45   find that it is up to dropbox quality which is invisible that I never if i'm [TS]

01:57:52   editing you know apps that I know use that use iCloud Drive like you have a [TS]

01:57:57   couple of important number spreadsheet at this point when I save stuff in [TS]

01:58:03   numbers [TS]

01:58:03   I know that it's there and I can go to a different mac or a different device and [TS]

01:58:07   it's going to be there [TS]

01:58:08   it's just there that's not it i still use dropbox because i use it in [TS]

01:58:12   different ways and drop boxes more is a lot easier to use as a sort of junk [TS]

01:58:16   drawer where you just put anything and everything and have it go everywhere and [TS]

01:58:20   iCloud drive to me still works best in the mindset of hey the documents for [TS]

01:58:27   numbers you go two numbers you know it's not really i don't really even though [TS]

01:58:30   you can put arbitrary files in there your iCloud Drive now i still use [TS]

01:58:34   dropbox for that but just in terms of having the sink work just invisibly [TS]

01:58:38   instant nearly instantaneously it's up there i think they get a bad rap for for [TS]

01:58:44   problems that they had in the past and people either every aren't giving it a [TS]

01:58:48   fair look in with open eyes now or it there just to set your mindset that [TS]

01:58:54   Apple's you know that anything related iCloud sucks but what they charge for it [TS]

01:58:59   i think is creates almost crazy compared to what other people charged for storage [TS]

01:59:03   I think the story later XO opened at the functionality seems to be really pretty [TS]

01:59:09   solid at this point I just [TS]

01:59:16   believe that they could charge a lot less than they should and if anything [TS]

01:59:20   they should be because you know it's really only meant to be used on [TS]

01:59:23   expensive Apple devices that have high profit margins it seems to me like [TS]

01:59:27   iCloud Drive storage per gigabyte ought to be less than the competition not more [TS]

01:59:32   than the competition because like Dropbox just to name one example all the [TS]

01:59:36   money they're making is for people paying for dropbox storage they don't [TS]

01:59:39   sell eight-hundred-dollar cell phones that with forty percent profit margins [TS]

01:59:43   that they can get other revenue from all they have is the storage where is this [TS]

01:59:47   is just one little thing so there's an example where I don't know I don't know [TS]

01:59:51   how do anything they can make money [TS]

01:59:55   hi guys i don't disagree with you but I mean you know they [TS]

01:59:55   hi guys i don't disagree with you but I mean you know they [TS]

02:00:00   run the scenarios and they make I'm writing you say yeah and that example [TS]

02:00:06   can make money and they've landed i projected scenarios and right and most [TS]

02:00:10   and i often run it you know for some reason multan particular and I when he's [TS]

02:00:13   on the show always run into this where we end up talking ourselves into [TS]

02:00:16   spending Tim Cook's money you know when I route totally realize how she's in [TS]

02:00:20   easy and awesome thing to do because it's fun right but i totally realized [TS]

02:00:24   that the way you become the world's most profitable company is that you you know [TS]

02:00:30   cut your losses and you know you sweat the details make money you don't need [TS]

02:00:35   this money away here in there and that all sorts of ideas that we have involve [TS]

02:00:39   Apple missing a little extra money away here and there and then you know it's a [TS]

02:00:43   little way here in there and then all of a sudden you not the world's most [TS]

02:00:45   profitable company [TS]

02:00:46   well because ultimately so the argument is that they should make iCloud storage [TS]

02:00:52   cheaper despite the fact that we don't know how many like what the percentages [TS]

02:01:00   of iOS device owners or Apple device honors heard that subscribe to it they [TS]

02:01:07   should make it cheaper in order to make them happier [TS]

02:01:10   yeah well but but we've already got a cust sat number of like 98 right [TS]

02:01:18   like maybe when that drops to like 89 maybe that's when you like i'm good i [TS]

02:01:23   iose stuff and I almost think that Apple should know better than to trust the [TS]

02:01:27   customer set because people might do to and nada actually think they do people [TS]

02:01:32   maybe don't have high enough expectations yet they don't expect to [TS]

02:01:35   have infinite storage online and so therefore they don't judge apple by that [TS]

02:01:39   and therefore the USA I'm completely satisfied with my iphone even though [TS]

02:01:43   they only have five gigabytes of storage in their iCloud account [TS]

02:01:46   whereas I think Apple knows better than that and it even cut it is considered by [TS]

02:01:49   hour ago story about being appalled when the guys just threw a handful of card [TS]

02:01:54   catalogs some paneer like data lost a loss I I just breaks my heart knowing [TS]

02:01:58   that there are people who don't can't put their entire photo library in their [TS]

02:02:02   iCloud account because there are they only take the free iCloud storage like I [TS]

02:02:07   really think that it i don't want to quite say there's a moral obligation but [TS]

02:02:12   I'm [TS]

02:02:13   I'm spectrum it is on some spectrum being in favor of avoiding data loss at [TS]

02:02:17   all costs is a moral issue and and I really wish that more and more people [TS]

02:02:21   would be able to see you know reasonably serve there and save their entire photo [TS]

02:02:26   and video library to their iCloud account because otherwise if they lose [TS]

02:02:30   or break their phone they might lose lose photos and videos perfectly i don't [TS]

02:02:36   disagree with you about that I don't know what that costs I don't know but I [TS]

02:02:46   mean it that there's always local backup so you know everyone you can I know I [TS]

02:02:52   know but not not to get all capitalist on it because i'm canadian so we should [TS]

02:03:02   probably just nationalize every company and but but there doesn't the fact [TS]

02:03:14   they can make money on it and you know like if people need this kind of [TS]

02:03:21   protection [TS]

02:03:22   it's effectively insurance right yeah [TS]

02:03:25   can a floppy any in the insurance via my business I i think the best thing that [TS]

02:03:31   Ben wrote in that piece was that the draper quote was named Draper or my [TS]

02:03:37   thing a man the guy that the management guy you said you you what what you [TS]

02:03:41   measure it is what get ya may that's the key and on-air and you might as well [TS]

02:03:49   have said ahhh that's the one jeff would never say that he was hit the exact [TS]

02:03:55   opposite sides but I'd I think that they would but Apple needs is better and more [TS]

02:04:04   rigid measurements of their services they should and higher standards [TS]

02:04:09   standards for them i see fewer and fewer times that I see any kind of out-of-sync [TS]

02:04:14   I messages i use iMessage all the time i use it across a bunch of devices and in [TS]

02:04:20   my use it is excellent and then getting better [TS]

02:04:23   there's another one of those things where I just feel like don't judge it by [TS]

02:04:26   how it used to be but it's it's really gotten good at one of my mac the [TS]

02:04:31   iMessage our eyes aren't going off on my other devices because it sees that I'm [TS]

02:04:35   active on my mac and text that I've sent from my phone all day if there are one I [TS]

02:04:40   message when i get to my mac there there waiting for me if I want to get back to [TS]

02:04:43   it [TS]

02:04:44   um but it's still not perfect i just had an interaction with someone the other [TS]

02:04:48   day and I i don't know why but all my texts to this guy only go to my phone or [TS]

02:04:56   from him they only go to my phone at least and they don't go to my my mac and [TS]

02:05:00   i don't know why they're blue and it seems like both devices are set up with [TS]

02:05:06   the same phone number in the same Apple ID and whether he's sending it to my [TS]

02:05:10   phone number or my apple ID email address i don't know but everybody [TS]

02:05:15   else's rsync between so just you know it 99 instead of 99.9 percent of messages [TS]

02:05:22   sinking properly between devices you know maybe making 99.99 you know but [TS]

02:05:27   measure it in [TS]

02:05:28   there's there ought to be a good eye and I do always opt into the send Apple [TS]

02:05:33   diagnostic stuff so they there hopefully they're measuring and they can they see [TS]

02:05:38   that there's a glitch you know but I that to me is the bottom line not that [TS]

02:05:43   it should be about dollars and cents and profit and loss but that they should [TS]

02:05:46   pick better metrics and improve these services to those levels [TS]

02:05:51   what do you perceive as the services that Apple has that that that need the [TS]

02:05:56   most work here and icloud think it's actually got better do you think it's [TS]

02:06:07   good enough as somebody who ships mac software did did you know safe to the [TS]

02:06:12   cloud and this is your appt napkin [TS]

02:06:14   yes napkin and we had some early reports where they were like the files would [TS]

02:06:21   clobber themselves when they were synced with it that was bad but things have [TS]

02:06:26   worked out better and notes is actually really great app and i'm already say [TS]

02:06:36   that because i know you know i don't disagree at all I mean is you know well [TS]

02:06:42   you know [TS]

02:06:42   and while the new version your show that yeah I didn't new version of the notes [TS]

02:06:46   version of notes that is that debuted last fall with iOS 9 and and the new [TS]

02:06:52   version of macro elcapitan because it the the old version and notes only sink [TS]

02:06:58   through I map and it was a terrible hack and acted like a terrible hack and was [TS]

02:07:02   unreliable and the new one uses cloudkit I think right and yea 99% sure that it's [TS]

02:07:08   yet offering cloudkit which is not files in the file system like iCloud Drive it [TS]

02:07:15   is my culture with the word is but a synchronous abstracted object permanence [TS]

02:07:23   I guess [TS]

02:07:24   yes that's a good to sit well the bunch of words is gobbledygook really [TS]

02:07:29   motivated but it's an API that developers seem to like and it seems to [TS]

02:07:35   work the way it's supposed to which is you know [TS]

02:07:38   exactly what a service should be a nice change of pace right yeah that it's you [TS]

02:07:42   know it is it's a good API or good enough API and it's reliable so and it [TS]

02:07:48   works at it in that within the timeframe that you would hope that it would work [TS]

02:07:52   where the note that you just checked out and paste it on your Mac you pick up [TS]

02:07:57   your phone and go and it's it's there on your phone so it's gonna it's a good [TS]

02:08:01   example itunes an apple music are there a mess like I mean I don't even [TS]

02:08:14   understand anymore but you had already on the show recently and he was like [TS]

02:08:20   well when you go to music have all you same music and it's like that's not the [TS]

02:08:25   problem right and if i play an album that I own to Apple music i can click on [TS]

02:08:32   the album art and click on a song on it and it'll start playing and then if i [TS]

02:08:37   try to navigate to find like to play what's next and i click on an album that [TS]

02:08:41   happens to being included through my Apple music subscription the song . [TS]

02:08:47   that's why can't I can't go and add it to up next [TS]

02:08:56   I don't whatever reason i don't know how many accounts i agree that there are [TS]

02:09:00   problems there and i still i find Apple music to be confusing Apple music I [TS]

02:09:03   don't understand i'm a very technical person it it triggers the that maybe I'm [TS]

02:09:08   a dummy thing that I think makes me a good designer and a good critic of [TS]

02:09:13   design because i have no I don't want me dummy right but I'm other people so [TS]

02:09:17   technical [TS]

02:09:18   I'm unable to understand complex overly complex interfaces and that therefore [TS]

02:09:22   act right i think it makes me and I think i'm good at explaining why you [TS]

02:09:26   know and it's it just is over the over the line of I just just did this doesn't [TS]

02:09:31   seem to explain itself i can i can start to understand the rules but there are [TS]

02:09:37   betray and based on technical limitations you know that then like I [TS]

02:09:41   don't know that counsel to do that and services though I feel that it's more of [TS]

02:09:44   a sign of being tolerant of insufficient user enter user interfaces okay well [TS]

02:09:51   decline expression of that service is a suboptimal by and large i'm actually not [TS]

02:10:04   that down on Apple services per se but i also don't think I rely on them as much [TS]

02:10:16   as many other people do like a lot of people do collaborative document sharing [TS]

02:10:22   / google or calendar sharing and I don't have to do that room I don't know if I'm [TS]

02:10:31   exposed so much to the the negative sighs it maybe where Apple is not quite [TS]

02:10:40   as at the forefront [TS]

02:10:43   well and the other thing too that plays into this and i often think about and I [TS]

02:10:47   don't know how much of it is a problem or not is that Apple is in a position [TS]

02:10:50   where they benefit from the services of others you know so if there's [TS]

02:10:56   collaborative aspects to google docs that you know apples pages or whatever [TS]

02:11:04   else can provide the fact is that you can get the full benefit of that while [TS]

02:11:09   using an Apple product because google docs as you know iOS apps and and web [TS]

02:11:16   web version that runs and you know anywhere and i think that's true for a [TS]

02:11:20   lot of services you know it's it you know that they've got the problem for [TS]

02:11:27   Apple was back in the early to cycle back to two hours going to show the [TS]

02:11:30   problem was back in the old days when Apple was so much smaller that this [TS]

02:11:34   stuff all the stuff didn't work on apple stuff i mean most famously that family [TS]

02:11:39   best example I can think of was that at first Napster was a windows only thing [TS]

02:11:43   right and there's this amazing thing that was a sensation that let the entire [TS]

02:11:48   world on fire and mac users were left out at first and then it was like we had [TS]

02:11:54   that third-party clients that just use the napster API [TS]

02:11:57   which I were actually in some ways better because they were designed by Mac [TS]

02:12:02   developers and had better interface but then as napster itself the first class [TS]

02:12:07   that you know the first party napster would change things [TS]

02:12:09   the mac changes it you had to wait for the third party developers making these [TS]

02:12:13   sort of yeah I story of the mac in the nice right and we don't apple doesn't [TS]

02:12:17   have that problem anymore nobody nobody does matter or down [TS]

02:12:20   no or iOS seconds maybe max second but not OS so I think it's a little [TS]

02:12:24   different you know and I don't think that they have to do all the services [TS]

02:12:28   themselves and in fact i think that that kind of thinking it it sort of is what [TS]

02:12:32   led to Microsoft's downfall where to me where Microsoft really fell off as the [TS]

02:12:37   dominant the company that really drove the industry and every every important [TS]

02:12:41   sense was that the institutionally they wanted to do everything and anybody who [TS]

02:12:46   had any kind of success [TS]

02:12:48   microsoft would say well they're making money on that let's go do something [TS]

02:12:51   right beats them right so you know they they competed with oracle they competed [TS]

02:12:56   with Sun they compete I mean you name it they competed with them and they even [TS]

02:13:00   you know they want a lot of those fights right they did but it sometimes dirty [TS]

02:13:05   sometimes parents but i think it may I think it let them take the eye off their [TS]

02:13:09   eye off the ball that they didn't have any you know I think trying to do it all [TS]

02:13:12   is is inevitably going to lead to failure [TS]

02:13:15   so do you think that's where Apple's come on [TS]

02:13:20   no I don't think so but i think though that the mindset that they have to be [TS]

02:13:25   good [TS]

02:13:25   they have to be as good as Google at all services is maybe the wrong way to look [TS]

02:13:29   at it because maybe they don't they just have to remain a appealing platform for [TS]

02:13:34   Google to make sure it remains a first class citizen and I don't see any signs [TS]

02:13:39   that that's changed [TS]

02:13:40   so what do you think about this Intel playoff kind of thing which seems like a [TS]

02:13:49   word segue well let it remain this the company did let me take a break before [TS]

02:13:54   we talk that's a great way a great final topic let me take a third third brake [TS]

02:13:58   here and think our [TS]

02:13:59   third sponsor of the show our final sponsor our good friends love this [TS]

02:14:03   company fracture fracture is a company that prints photos directly onto glass [TS]

02:14:08   super high-quality I I say it all the time I cannot it looks like nothing else [TS]

02:14:14   it doesn't look like it's not like getting a printed photo on paper that is [TS]

02:14:18   perfectly mounted under glass [TS]

02:14:19   it looks different and it in a way that is better it looks it it's just uncanny [TS]

02:14:26   what it looks like it is super super nice you get a piece of glass your photo [TS]

02:14:31   is printed directly on it they have all the sizes you could possibly imagine [TS]

02:14:34   little like three by three square ones four-by-four forget what the sizes but [TS]

02:14:38   the little little tiny desk top 12 really really big ones that you would [TS]

02:14:41   mount on the wall it's really kind of amazing i know Mexican megapixels are so [TS]

02:14:46   overrated as a camera thing a way to rank camera quality but the fact is that [TS]

02:14:52   it [TS]

02:14:53   there's a certain threshold for printing things big and you need enough [TS]

02:14:56   megapixels and it's amazing to me that the iphone is well past you could take [TS]

02:15:00   an iphone picture and if it's in focus and sharp you can print it up to really [TS]

02:15:05   big size and get really really amazing out output out of that and I say that [TS]

02:15:09   knowing that for anybody's listening me most of your photos are probably taken [TS]

02:15:12   with your iphone there's very few people who take a majority there are photos on [TS]

02:15:16   standalone cameras and even people who use dental and cameras probably don't [TS]

02:15:20   take a majority of them on anything other than phone you can go really [TS]

02:15:23   really big and tractors prices are really affordable to it starts at just [TS]

02:15:29   15 bucks for the small square size and it goes up from there they make [TS]

02:15:33   fantastic gifts for family friends and loved ones I know mother's day is coming [TS]

02:15:36   up [TS]

02:15:37   it is a fantastic hurry up get your order in for Mother's Day because they [TS]

02:15:42   did small company and i know right before the holidays going to get backed [TS]

02:15:46   up but if you listen in to this in the you know at the end of april hurry up [TS]

02:15:50   and get it in its a great gift and I just can't say how happy I am with him I [TS]

02:15:55   wouldn't get my photos printed to mount or to put on a desk any other way [TS]

02:15:59   because it's so much it's both more convenient and higher quality and i [TS]

02:16:04   don't i don't know how you can beat that [TS]

02:16:06   so if you need any more reason to go ahead and use fracture give me a shot [TS]

02:16:11   you can save ten percent off their already excellent prices by using the [TS]

02:16:16   code talk show 10 talk show 10 10 that's just talk show spell down and then 10 [TS]

02:16:22   and just go to fracture me.com to check out their services online fracture [TS]

02:16:28   me.com my thanks to them so intel intel announced that where they went off like [TS]

02:16:32   ten percent of the workforce 12 12,000 people 12,000 and um I think it's [TS]

02:16:40   unsurprising I think you know and it's always funny i add the number surprises [TS]

02:16:45   me i had to the lair [TS]

02:16:49   I mean so you would probably have to the TV show you hip to the the industry back [TS]

02:16:57   when IBM had its first layoffs late nineties em at what you know why [TS]

02:17:04   actually is before that think before Apple got involved with them but Abby it [TS]

02:17:10   was a powerhouse and they they will look at all school company like we don't do [TS]

02:17:14   layoffs right you work at IBM and you retire [TS]

02:17:18   it's a point of pride look your company man you want to watch you would like we [TS]

02:17:23   we set you up and then they they had sometimes and they they did some laughed [TS]

02:17:28   and this Intel thing kinda reminds me that a little bit yeah [TS]

02:17:36   and especially because they were especially going back to the nineties [TS]

02:17:41   you just cannot emphasize how you know I know that use the term wintel but that [TS]

02:17:47   was wintel was the windows as the software and Intel is the cpu the wind [TS]

02:17:52   tell duopoly was just so dominant in the industry in terms of both what actual [TS]

02:17:59   people were actually using which was intel-based computers with microsoft [TS]

02:18:04   software running it and and the where the money was going [TS]

02:18:07   it was going to Microsoft was going to intel i mean you could have reaped all [TS]

02:18:12   of the rewards of [TS]

02:18:15   the nineties stock market just by putting money into Intel and Microsoft [TS]

02:18:19   oh yeah and it just seemed that sort of success over you know a decade it after [TS]

02:18:27   a while it's human nature to just see it as inevitable you know that it's that [TS]

02:18:31   they're always going to Intel is always going to be Intel and it just it you [TS]

02:18:37   know i don't know going back in time and telling somebody in 1997 that Intel's [TS]

02:18:41   going to have massive layoffs and $MONTH 2016 10 2016 would sound like a long [TS]

02:18:45   time off but you would think wow some something weird happened in between now [TS]

02:18:49   and then because that doesn't seem possible [TS]

02:18:51   well I'm something where didn't happen i think a couple of things did I think [TS]

02:18:55   that there's I think again multi variable and that all of the variables [TS]

02:19:01   all of them worked against Intel it's like it's like a perfect yeah I can't [TS]

02:19:06   think of really want just yeah he never liked all the ways that the industry has [TS]

02:19:10   changed since since their heyday have all been against their their favor [TS]

02:19:17   I mean let's just recount them i mean obviously one of them is the shift to [TS]

02:19:23   the fact that pc sales have plateaued and and Irina decline because people are [TS]

02:19:30   either using your old pc longer and it the end they're older pc is good enough [TS]

02:19:36   performance-wise that that we've reached the United maybe that's even a separate [TS]

02:19:40   separate factor in that is saturation point is right that that that we've read [TS]

02:19:44   rich reached a point where client-side computing is fast enough for most people [TS]

02:19:49   most of the time so the old there's no need to replace your older pc if it's [TS]

02:19:53   still running based on performance reasons obviously and famously people [TS]

02:19:57   are doing a lot more their personal computing on quote unquote mobile [TS]

02:20:01   devices which roughly defined means phones and tablets and phones and [TS]

02:20:05   tablets most of them overwhelming majority of them are using arm-based [TS]

02:20:09   chips which Intel doesn't make an which funny enough faced this soul they had [TS]

02:20:15   like an army had that x.x kayla was right and that they're sold just before [TS]

02:20:20   the cell phone and now here's the thing that I wonder though even keeping that I [TS]

02:20:24   don't know that that would have saved them because one of the other factors is [TS]

02:20:26   that arms [TS]

02:20:27   are our Intel's business is based on the fact on the the the idea that a [TS]

02:20:33   significant portion of the cost of a pc is the cpu that that's you know whatever [TS]

02:20:39   however much the pc cause a big chunk of it is a the the cpu and microsoft [TS]

02:20:46   business used to be based on and to some degree still is but they've successfully [TS]

02:20:49   moved away from you know moved away from this in a way that I don't think intel [TS]

02:20:54   has that that in the old days a pretty much the entire cost of the pc was an [TS]

02:20:59   intel chip a license for windows and then a whole bunch of cheap components [TS]

02:21:04   like hard drives and ram and stuff like that that was all commodity-based but I [TS]

02:21:09   don't think that's everything else was a top software is software they can pivot [TS]

02:21:13   better than it until can being hardware and I don't like like I think that you [TS]

02:21:22   can move on with being the OS provider and onto something else [TS]

02:21:26   faster than intel can move often being the chief advisor right wanted something [TS]

02:21:30   else [TS]

02:21:30   well and being a cheap provider where the cpu is not a mere commodity is a [TS]

02:21:35   premier component I mean and just look at most so the legs cut out they invent [TS]

02:21:40   them and now what we mac users are always saying I always at least I always [TS]

02:21:45   think of Intel stickers the Intel Inside stickers in the context of that poor sap [TS]

02:21:49   at the apple press conference who asked Steve Jobs wide man yeah why them the [TS]

02:21:55   first you know it will after having six kind of in 2006-2007 mower I had to be [TS]

02:22:01   2070 because they had to be after the ones came out 2006 was the year that [TS]

02:22:05   switch was announced right and then 2007 would be when it came out so that the [TS]

02:22:11   poor guide that press conference in $MONTH 2007 who asked why apple's [TS]

02:22:14   intel-based mac books don't have an intelligent the same as the iPhone yeah [TS]

02:22:20   that's embarrassing [TS]

02:22:22   yeah it'sit's your you're worried about the wrong thing did but just think about [TS]

02:22:29   just think about the fact that it's the idea that the intel chip is so important [TS]

02:22:33   to the pc whether it's from HP or dell or compact back in the day or name that [TS]

02:22:41   you tape sony you know that they all put any a visible intel inside sticker on [TS]

02:22:47   the outside of the pc or the laptop and I know that they were marketing you know [TS]

02:22:52   deals and everybody took in there was money that it was involved but the [TS]

02:22:55   notion of putting a cpu maker sticker mac users laughs example just wouldn't [TS]

02:23:01   do it but no phone as a Qualcomm inside sticker on it it's just the cpu is [TS]

02:23:07   reduced important it's just another one of the components now it's obviously an [TS]

02:23:11   important component and you can obviously spend you know higher end [TS]

02:23:15   phones have more cutting-edge cpus but it's just a different world the idea of [TS]

02:23:20   the cpu being so supremely course so extremely Supreme to the what's in the [TS]

02:23:28   device it is no longer the case you know and I they you know they can't expect to [TS]

02:23:33   make hundreds of dollars from cpu and a phone right yet [TS]

02:23:38   well no I don't the intelligent honest you don't have they can expect me I'm [TS]

02:23:43   talking about my here and somebody will have an idea [TS]

02:23:46   first I'm talking out of my ass but I i would guess that Intel makes more money [TS]

02:23:50   from a three-hundred-dollar pc that gets old today with an intel cpu then then [TS]

02:24:00   they would make from Sen arm CPU in an eight-hundred-dollar iphone if they were [TS]

02:24:06   to make the cpu for the iphone i don't think when RCP if you sure because they [TS]

02:24:12   be licensing the arm IP right and part of its really used to perfectly on but [TS]

02:24:20   they sold it and helps [TS]

02:24:24   I don't know what girlfriend shall I don't and they seem like they should go [TS]

02:24:36   onto the server side and I don't know enough about how those architectures [TS]

02:24:42   work these days but it seems to me that eventually a bunch of like really low [TS]

02:24:47   powered arm chips with ssds attached could perform a lot of the web traffic [TS]

02:24:55   that it is you know mostly what needs to be served up today [TS]

02:25:05   yeah I don't know what the way I don't know what the way forward for them as [TS]

02:25:08   either but I did get enough you need a super powerful CPU and the backend [TS]

02:25:13   anymore [TS]

02:25:14   like maybe we've tapped out and in terms of what a single cpu needs to do and now [TS]

02:25:19   we're looking at like a hive mind of CBS i just see that I think that the way [TS]

02:25:27   forward for them is probably not in making things for consumers you know and [TS]

02:25:32   whether server or the whatever other professional market but that's the only [TS]

02:25:35   way for a company like Intel to make high-priced components i think at the [TS]

02:25:40   consumer level prevented an era where you know those chips are all they're all [TS]

02:25:46   commodities now [TS]

02:25:47   yeah you know what I i I've been longtime fan of IBM and they got out [TS]

02:25:59   when the gettin was good they sold up that pc industry to lenovo they gave up [TS]

02:26:06   os/2 probably 10 years too late but the right p.m. so they were supporting their [TS]

02:26:13   customers a long time I I'm gonna I'm gonna cut you off before you circling in [TS]

02:26:16   those two I don't want to talk about os/2 I'm just saying it as a company [TS]

02:26:21   they manage their business for like a hundred and something here that and [TS]

02:26:26   there's no one is good to let go and have their big to me [TS]

02:26:34   my promises I think that them them selling the thinkpad business when they [TS]

02:26:39   did was is it in hindsight a great example of skating to where the puck is [TS]

02:26:44   going anywhere exactly right they sold it not not before it was too late they [TS]

02:26:49   sold it while it could still command a premium price [TS]

02:26:51   yeah but they totally saw that was going away that they went to his services [TS]

02:26:55   business [TS]

02:26:56   yeah and i had to cut a bunch of jobs which is unfortunate but I mean am I [TS]

02:27:02   mean David kicking it for like a hundred and some-odd years now so come here and [TS]

02:27:08   look how do you argue with that [TS]

02:27:11   yeah well it's it's about it from my list of topics anything else you want to [TS]

02:27:16   talk about me we're going on for a while and had definitely WTH really couldn't [TS]

02:27:20   really see is very expensive that that is that's the last thing I wanted to [TS]

02:27:23   talk about so Apple finally and and i mean a non sarcastic i really do think [TS]

02:27:29   that they should be embarrassed that they announced WTC dates only eight [TS]

02:27:33   weeks before it actually happens i think it's i think apples gotta put on your [TS]

02:27:38   big boy pants and and commit to it at least i would say four months in advance [TS]

02:27:44   but at least 12 i think at least 12 but anyway they at least have like a year in [TS]

02:27:50   advance [TS]

02:27:50   no 12 weeks i don't know probably 12 weeks but you know I for I'd skip [TS]

02:27:56   between months and weeks there so I'm so they announced WWDC dates it's exactly [TS]

02:28:03   when everybody thought it was better to 13 to 17 but a lot of people have noted [TS]

02:28:10   that the including me because I'm not buying it i didn't enter the lottery i [TS]

02:28:15   get meaning and it's always easy for me to say because every year for just at [TS]

02:28:19   least since 2007 I've got a press pass for the keynotes and in recent years [TS]

02:28:23   they've let the some of the people with press passes go to conference sessions [TS]

02:28:28   and stuff like that but so I didn't even enter the lottery because i don't want [TS]

02:28:32   to take the lottery spot from somebody who really really wants to go and [TS]

02:28:35   doesn't have the privilege i do of getting a press pass [TS]

02:28:38   yeah it's the same with me i don't know not that they know I could guarantee [TS]

02:28:43   pass beg to now i will be then I can talk to a lot of these people it's [TS]

02:28:48   fine like i don't need a pass at love to be there but man types eaten [TS]

02:28:56   yeah it is it and and it's funny I knew that the prices for hotels in downtown [TS]

02:29:01   San Francisco I've gotten more expensive and my thought was is because someone [TS]

02:29:05   who goes to New York couple times a year i know that Manhattan famously and and [TS]

02:29:09   to me rightfully so is you know that the greatest city in the world says in [TS]

02:29:16   America [TS]

02:29:17   yeah but arguably the greatest city in the world you know it makes total sense [TS]

02:29:20   to me that Manhattan is the most expensive hotel city that I am familiar [TS]

02:29:24   with and off the top of my head it seems like not just for WWDC but the last few [TS]

02:29:29   times I've gone out you know for the last year so every time I go out for an [TS]

02:29:32   apple event stay in san francisco it seems to me that like it's no longer a [TS]

02:29:37   case of bad luck like the one year the ipad event in the fall was coincident [TS]

02:29:43   with the thing was the e3 gaming conference it was somewhat the big [TS]

02:29:48   gaming conference in san francisco i don't--that's III year what the name of [TS]

02:29:52   GTA GTA the game developers conference gcng is the Association because you just [TS]

02:30:00   a sensationally I mean just I've tens of thousands of attendees and it was like [TS]

02:30:06   holy cow did XP no note and it was held at moscone so it's all the you know [TS]

02:30:10   downtown hotels super sent but it's been a case for the last few years where it [TS]

02:30:15   doesn't matter whether it's june or $MONTH march or September it's expensive [TS]

02:30:20   and then somebody pointed out to me on twitter that its attack Bloomberg [TS]

02:30:24   actually did a report in San Francisco is now the most expensive hotel city in [TS]

02:30:28   the world and which exactly it's not just me wanting to get it a nice room at [TS]

02:30:35   a cheap rate it's actually like the truth it's more expensive than whatever [TS]

02:30:39   the city isn't Switzerland more expensive than New York crazy and it [TS]

02:30:43   really puts a damper in the ability for us as a community to just say hey even [TS]

02:30:49   if you don't get a conference ticket or even a developer you should come out to [TS]

02:30:52   San Francisco that week anyway because all of us will be there together and [TS]

02:30:55   people can show up you know people get tickets to my live talk show people can [TS]

02:31:01   you know talk in hotel lobbies and you make friends and make contacts and and [TS]

02:31:07   schedule all sorts of other events but the the shirt cost of it now is really [TS]

02:31:11   it's it's absolutely locking people out [TS]

02:31:15   I don't know what happened can do about that it's not apples fault it really ya [TS]

02:31:19   know now it's and there's been some suggestion that they could do it in [TS]

02:31:22   Vegas and I don't think that'll fly it doesn't want and you know me I love [TS]

02:31:28   Vegas [TS]

02:31:29   yeah and I love Apple ya think I don't think it was work though I know it's in [TS]

02:31:34   and it's as a function of having tons of really high quality hotel rooms at [TS]

02:31:41   reasonable rates Vegas definitely has that I mean you get a for [TS]

02:31:45   four-and-a-half storeroom at vegas almost all the time for under two [TS]

02:31:49   hundred dollars a night in terms of having conference space there's a couple [TS]

02:31:53   of options i think they have I've never WBC is a little different than like a [TS]

02:31:58   convention but you know there's a lot of places there and I know that the aria [TS]

02:32:02   hotel is building a new one but I think it's for other reasons i think it's i [TS]

02:32:06   think it's off brand for apple and I don't think it works for them in terms [TS]

02:32:10   they have to move a lot of people and honestly love people just come up to it [TS]

02:32:14   a lot Apple people come up because it's there [TS]

02:32:19   yeah it is shuttle a lot of Apple people who are involved at WWDC and some degree [TS]

02:32:24   or another a jit still are in cupertino during the week either some of the days [TS]

02:32:29   or every day maybe just in the morning and then you know get there one snake [TS]

02:32:32   yeah yeah okay I'll come in my lap right 13 there's an awful lot of cars [TS]

02:32:37   shuttling forth from the south south of Valley up to San Francisco with apple [TS]

02:32:41   employees and back and forth during wwcc whereas if they held it whether it's [TS]

02:32:46   Vegas or any other city that required air travel [TS]

02:32:50   it's everybody has to go and everybody has to stay there all week and it a [TS]

02:32:55   different thing it has cost it adds commitment it adds disruption and [TS]

02:33:00   anytime you do air travel like that even if it's not change impacts serendipity [TS]

02:33:04   yeah yeah maybe I'll just gonna show up yeah well and it adds a day before and [TS]

02:33:09   after just not even talking teardown and [TS]

02:33:12   and stuff like that it just means you've got to go the day before and you've [TS]

02:33:16   gotta leave the day after as opposed to if you're just driving an hour down [TS]

02:33:20   there you know it's it's a little different [TS]

02:33:22   yeah it won't leave a yeah I don't get it [TS]

02:33:25   yeah it's like if they could find another option in the valley [TS]

02:33:28   maybe but you know it's it's like in the old days I never went to one in san jose [TS]

02:33:33   and I think the first WWDC I i went to it was already in San Francisco at [TS]

02:33:39   Moscone and went to a GC in san jose back in the old days but you and I have [TS]

02:33:45   friends [TS]

02:33:46   good yes you know I Chris you know your partner at with napkin at age 72 still [TS]

02:33:53   who you know I think he was probably adobe back then right yeah appreciate so [TS]

02:33:57   back when he was at Adobe admit that the the san jose you're a WWE sees Brent [TS]

02:34:03   Simmons had been to a san jose or at WTC everybody agrees it in terms of you know [TS]

02:34:11   the social aspects of it was terrible because San Jose like the light you know [TS]

02:34:15   they turn out the lights at five o'clock in the afternoon [TS]

02:34:17   yeah and so you just lose all sorts of social serendipity that and I don't [TS]

02:34:24   think it's big enough anymore i really don't know I know you can do it anywhere [TS]

02:34:27   but i'll tell you think it might be open the other must grenade portions but [TS]

02:34:32   quite frankly though in the early years of daring fireball in the first at least [TS]

02:34:37   five years that I went to WWDC I I wouldn't have been able to afford it if [TS]

02:34:41   the hotel's works too expensive that as they are now no now I mean it i find it [TS]

02:34:50   have seen now and it hurts to I i find that air trauma has gotten more [TS]

02:34:54   expensive too [TS]

02:34:55   I don't know what the reason for that is but it may it may be specific to the [TS]

02:34:59   philly the SFO route and that the way that the airline options out of [TS]

02:35:04   Philadelphia have changed since then [TS]

02:35:06   maybe but I mean it's becoming like a five grand adventure is to one week [TS]

02:35:12   costs about five grand gets now at least it's it's it's really it's almost [TS]

02:35:18   sickening [TS]

02:35:19   yeah it's it's not to be growing like right crash about it but I mean that's [TS]

02:35:23   serious money and [TS]

02:35:25   for me that's like really like how do you spend that kind of money without [TS]

02:35:29   really thinking about is this with while to attend he you can go to like a really [TS]

02:35:35   nice a really nice vacation resort somewhere for a lot more money than to [TS]

02:35:39   go there and have you know the some bum urinating on the sidewalk in front of [TS]

02:35:45   you you know [TS]

02:35:46   yes I love San Francisco but let's face it it's not not a resort destination it [TS]

02:35:52   really crazy how expensive it is and I don't know what to do i add that Apple [TS]

02:35:55   actually is a little concerned about that but on the other hand itself you [TS]

02:36:00   know it sells out so fast that they have to have a lottery the last time they [TS]

02:36:03   didn't have a lottery it literally literally sold out in under a minute [TS]

02:36:07   every single ticket for sale sold out in under a minute [TS]

02:36:11   I don't the last 1i got to you texted me at like 830 in the morning and I was [TS]

02:36:17   like I just pressed okay until I managed to buy it to get that was a couple years [TS]

02:36:23   ago yeah it was three years ago i think i think is dead [TS]

02:36:27   this might be the second year of a lottery i think but so it's not like [TS]

02:36:32   they're not they're gonna have trouble filling out the [TS]

02:36:35   no no that's consumed and I think for the student scholarships i know that [TS]

02:36:39   they announce this year that they're going to institute they're going to have [TS]

02:36:42   travel plans are they gonna help with travel for some of the student [TS]

02:36:46   scholarships to which I can also create i can only assume includes hotel [TS]

02:36:50   I mean whether it's free or whether it's just discount or just a relatively [TS]

02:36:54   little you know for the student disc you know students a relatively low [TS]

02:36:58   reasonable price that includes the hotel accommodations which is driven they can [TS]

02:37:02   afford even half of what we've been saying yeah what park was like four [TS]

02:37:10   bucks a night I yet at least [TS]

02:37:13   yeah but when I looked the other day online the mark 55 which is to me the [TS]

02:37:17   baseline hotel in the neighborhood is 409 dollars a night which isn't it's [TS]

02:37:24   just really is very 55 and I don't like those guys I do but I mean committed one [TS]

02:37:33   but tonight it's a fine hotel but it [TS]

02:37:36   is I feel like somebody's getting bribed to have it redone the four-star list [TS]

02:37:40   instead of three-and-a-half store list right and it's you know it was always [TS]

02:37:45   like well it's not the best but a hundred eighty-nine dollars a night I'd [TS]

02:37:49   rather save I'd rather save the money and I mean and you can get a better [TS]

02:37:52   hotel for 250 dollars a night back then but you think like we'll wait I'm coming [TS]

02:37:57   out for six nights that's 15 and fee it's like almost 400 bucks it's like a [TS]

02:38:02   foreigner box I'll state the part 55 and they feel but now that they've got the [TS]

02:38:05   prices over three hundred dollars four hundred dollars it's like you've got to [TS]

02:38:08   be kidding me four hundred dollars a night to stay in this place that looks [TS]

02:38:11   like it came out of that did you remember the Intercontinental just [TS]

02:38:14   opened it was like 10 bucks a night kind of thank the parc 55 reminded but it [TS]

02:38:20   seems to me like it was it's like the nicest hotel in east berlin during the [TS]

02:38:25   Cold War is the and the grotesque caricatures yeah the brutalist [TS]

02:38:30   architecture and like the way that they think that this is this is what we think [TS]

02:38:34   a nice hotel is like it was just crazy that's absolutely crazy and there's no [TS]

02:38:44   there's no more seats they used to be the other thing too is we've got you [TS]

02:38:47   know amongst our pals in their little clique of friends we have somebody would [TS]

02:38:51   figure out some way every year they they go to somebody would go through hotwire [TS]

02:38:54   or yeah [TS]

02:38:55   priceline or something like that and now hey if you go through hotwire and search [TS]

02:38:59   for a hotel within one mile of this location there's there's a four-star [TS]

02:39:05   option and it's only a hundred and seventy nine dollars a night and I jibe [TS]

02:39:09   booked it and it's you know the such-and-such hotel which is you know [TS]

02:39:12   right it's a great hotel and then everybody would quick do it and we get [TS]

02:39:15   it you know everybody feeling there's no more like there's no secret anymore to [TS]

02:39:18   getting a hotel in San Francisco and you know what that never worked for me [TS]

02:39:22   because I'm Canadian and like whatever service they used was probably faucets [TS]

02:39:27   and wear whatever service it was fake yeah us people who me yeah like okay get [TS]

02:39:33   something for practice [TS]

02:39:35   that's crazy i don't know what Apple can do or anybody can do know you can't fix [TS]

02:39:40   that I can't help but think I i could be wrong I mean everybody you know it's [TS]

02:39:45   it's only a bubble of it pops but I can't help but think that some of the [TS]

02:39:48   San Francisco go [TS]

02:39:49   economy is a bit of a bubble in that it will come back down to earth because i [TS]

02:39:55   don't think it's the natural state of affairs at San Francisco is it is is [TS]

02:40:01   more desirable than Manhattan you know and I don't like San Francisco lot as [TS]

02:40:07   city but at now I gave you [TS]

02:40:09   I feel like one way that you have to lie to the economy pops and prices go back [TS]

02:40:13   down or they build enough new hotels that that the you know the the supply [TS]

02:40:19   and demand equation changes but somebody was saying in twitter that they're not [TS]

02:40:22   there aren't really any plans for new hotels that there's a couple but nothing [TS]

02:40:26   no plans for hotels that would be sufficient to really change the overall [TS]

02:40:29   supply and demand ratio so we're stuck compel who tells him what I mean [TS]

02:40:37   try living there right now oh don't touch my friends yeah it's great huh [TS]

02:40:40   yeah nobody likes and I some of the suggestions people had on Twitter and [TS]

02:40:45   they're reasonable and it's probably what maybe this is what I would do if I [TS]

02:40:48   were if I you know couldn't afford it now if it was 10 years ago in the early [TS]

02:40:53   days daring fireball is people are saying you can you could stay out by the [TS]

02:41:01   airport for a lot less and take like an uberx into the city every day and take [TS]

02:41:07   it back at night which sounds crazy because it's the Hooper's from SFO to [TS]

02:41:10   downtown is is it's not cheap but waiting that's about 30 bucks a pop [TS]

02:41:15   right and I'm and my plans to just stay down in pacifica yeah and that would be [TS]

02:41:23   about 20 bucks anyway my hand and a lot to explain to my girlfriend and i'm [TS]

02:41:29   sorry i'm showing up at five o'clock in the morning right there [TS]

02:41:32   I'm just gonna sleep in the garage Michael is especially just a sickening [TS]

02:41:37   amount of money on one of the regular hotels i've got one already booked and [TS]

02:41:41   the other thing to the other last thing is that booking in advance was not any [TS]

02:41:45   sort of benefit either because i had a guess as to when the the WTC would be it [TS]

02:41:51   was right and I booked a hotel room months ago I think it was like january a [TS]

02:41:58   terrible rate had absolutely terrible rate but i know i like the hotel [TS]

02:42:03   and I I was worried that if it did it would might get so busy that it would be [TS]

02:42:11   hard to get a room at any rate if I waited until after that it was announced [TS]

02:42:15   and so I booked it not because hey I'm going to lock in a great rate i booked [TS]

02:42:19   it because I thought well atleast is where i know i have a hotel at least a [TS]

02:42:22   reasonable by today's standards San Francisco rate and then but it's [TS]

02:42:27   refundable and i'll just keep searching in hoping that maybe in the last week or [TS]

02:42:31   two prices you know there might be some deals i can refine get a refund up until [TS]

02:42:36   like Friday before WBC starts so when you check-in and they ask any case you [TS]

02:42:42   want you going to say to write i always get to outgas olive School of Fine [TS]

02:42:49   perfect of my friend guy robbing from themselves [TS]

02:42:54   yes to two queens sequence guy English thank you for doing the show has been [TS]

02:43:06   great talk [TS]

02:43:07   John Ellis fine people can get all the guy in less than one on twitter at gte [TS]

02:43:14   ya jee teen18 see your great app napkin at aged into stone and mac after yeah [TS]

02:43:27   the mac yeah yeah I get a podcast don't count the e-book that you can check it [TS]

02:43:31   when we interview people about oddly enough at computer history right with [TS]

02:43:36   fellow longtime friend of the talk show Rene Rene Ritchie yeah I guess nice [TS]

02:43:42   dummy also is I don't know how that is the nicest guy noir he's he's yeah [TS]

02:43:50   to me it didn't talk about all this stuff just turns you cynical it just how [TS]

02:43:55   do you not get cynical and that son-of-a-bitch the grenadines does not [TS]

02:43:58   intersect the Canadians Canadian need is the Chianti and doesn't have a cynical [TS]

02:44:03   boners [TS]

02:44:04   that's one of the nicest people I've ever met all right thank you guys thank [TS]

02:44:09   you jack have a good weekend [TS]

02:44:10   you too [TS]