The Incomparable

244: The Adventures of Maggie the Mutant


00:00:03   the incomparable number 244 April 2015 [TS]

00:00:11   welcome back everybody to the [TS]

00:00:14   uncomfortable i am your host Jason [TS]

00:00:16   Snelling we're here for another edition [TS]

00:00:17   of our comic book club we're talking [TS]

00:00:19   about to limited series 414 Marvel one [TS]

00:00:23   from DC they're both from the [TS]

00:00:25   mid-nineties ish both feature art by [TS]

00:00:28   alex ross I I stopped reading comics [TS]

00:00:35   after watchman came out because i [TS]

00:00:37   thought like suddenly all other comics [TS]

00:00:39   were just about a a pale imitation of [TS]

00:00:42   the greatness that was watchman and I i [TS]

00:00:44   also what was going to college and we [TS]

00:00:46   wanted to pretend that I wasn't act like [TS]

00:00:49   I wasn't a comic book reader and I [TS]

00:00:51   didn't know the detailed history of [TS]

00:00:52   everybody was in the x-men so I in the [TS]

00:00:54   mid-nineties i discovered marvels on a [TS]

00:00:56   bookshelf at a at a bookstore on on the [TS]

00:01:00   shelf and I saw it and I thought oh wow [TS]

00:01:01   that looks really cool I'm i bought it [TS]

00:01:03   and that was essentially my reentry in [TS]

00:01:06   very slowly but that was my reentry into [TS]

00:01:08   the comics world and a year or two later [TS]

00:01:09   I saw kingdom come on the understand at [TS]

00:01:13   a bookstore and we had bookstores they [TS]

00:01:15   were still in business back in the 20th [TS]

00:01:16   century and uh and i bought it two and [TS]

00:01:19   was a it's a very different kind of [TS]

00:01:22   story from Marvel's but also really [TS]

00:01:24   interesting same art obviously in that [TS]

00:01:26   this is alex ross or at least the same [TS]

00:01:27   artist and a story the likes of which I [TS]

00:01:31   did not expect from DC comics so I think [TS]

00:01:34   these are really interesting books that [TS]

00:01:36   are from other of a time and their of an [TS]

00:01:38   artist and I think they're worth talking [TS]

00:01:39   about and you can pick them up and read [TS]

00:01:42   them because they're self-contained [TS]

00:01:43   which is also really nice let me [TS]

00:01:45   introduce the people who are going to [TS]

00:01:47   talk about this stuff with me tonight [TS]

00:01:48   Lisa Schmeisser of course always here [TS]

00:01:51   for comic book club hi Lisa [TS]

00:01:53   hi it's a pleasure to be here all we [TS]

00:01:55   have a big big crowd for this comic book [TS]

00:01:57   club which is great chipset earth is out [TS]

00:01:59   there hi chip [TS]

00:02:00   hi Jason hi Lisa hi everybody this hello [TS]

00:02:05   Jon boy Monty actually also out there hi [TS]

00:02:08   Monty hi Jason and Lisa and chip [TS]

00:02:11   ok let's see if we can do this Moises [TS]

00:02:13   Sierra Leone is out there [TS]

00:02:14   I'm boys is Jason how are we going to [TS]

00:02:17   handle all of the truth and justice in [TS]

00:02:19   these comics I I can't handle the truth [TS]

00:02:21   but i can't believe it [TS]

00:02:23   but if it can happen justice stuff so [TS]

00:02:25   that's okay and and who did I forget [TS]

00:02:28   perhaps it's erica inside maybe maybe [TS]

00:02:32   open right [TS]

00:02:35   confirmed it is Erica and sign hello [TS]

00:02:36   hello I'm happy to be here and be your [TS]

00:02:39   non-expert comic book reader that's a [TS]

00:02:42   that you know as i read kingdom come [TS]

00:02:45   and I realized that the footnotes are [TS]

00:02:47   flying right by me and I can't [TS]

00:02:48   understand a single one of them i had 1i [TS]

00:02:51   haven't noticed there's there's a whole [TS]

00:02:54   set of annotations for kingdom come if [TS]

00:02:56   you want to read it there's somebody who [TS]

00:02:57   is painstakingly detailed every panel [TS]

00:03:00   against every sick so you can get every [TS]

00:03:03   single one of the younger the easter [TS]

00:03:05   eggs give you one example that why is [TS]

00:03:06   there a giant penny in the Batcave [TS]

00:03:09   well there's a reason i don't care what [TS]

00:03:11   the reason is there's a reason reversion [TS]

00:03:13   of the Batcave and lost your mind [TS]

00:03:15   that was easy it's sugar and spice being [TS]

00:03:17   in a panel that doesn't make any sense [TS]

00:03:19   one of the biggest arguments for in the [TS]

00:03:21   annotations is without them I would not [TS]

00:03:23   have realized that zan and jayna are now [TS]

00:03:25   waiters at at the local superhero dive [TS]

00:03:27   bar or that the village people became [TS]

00:03:30   and superheroes looking at my 1997 [TS]

00:03:34   vintage trade paperback of kingdom come [TS]

00:03:36   doesn't all these these footnotes you're [TS]

00:03:38   talking about on the internet you have [TS]

00:03:39   to know it has to [TS]

00:03:40   yeah you're deciding between your screen [TS]

00:03:42   and and you're in your trade paperback [TS]

00:03:45   as it were [TS]

00:03:45   marvel's house wives yeah yeah yeah its [TS]

00:03:48   current electricity you really want to [TS]

00:03:49   nerd out I'm I'd and I don't he said I'd [TS]

00:03:52   probably about five gasps yes indeed one [TS]

00:03:55   of the reasons I picked these books for [TS]

00:03:57   the comic book club is because to me [TS]

00:03:59   they're kind of the flip side of the [TS]

00:04:01   same question which is what does it mean [TS]

00:04:03   to live in a world that has both [TS]

00:04:06   superpowers drill and immortal people [TS]

00:04:08   and kingdom come [TS]

00:04:09   tackles this theme from the angle of [TS]

00:04:11   what are your rights and [TS]

00:04:12   responsibilities as a superpower being [TS]

00:04:14   who are you accountable to and marvels [TS]

00:04:17   tackles it from the angle of what are [TS]

00:04:18   your rights and responsibilities as a [TS]

00:04:20   human being when literally the next [TS]

00:04:22   generation of sentient beings to walk [TS]

00:04:25   the earth is is busy bursting into [TS]

00:04:26   flames or or or being x-men or being [TS]

00:04:29   spider-man all around you so yes the [TS]

00:04:32   first time you mentioned both is a crime [TS]

00:04:34   the old guy pretty much off the [TS]

00:04:36   protective well there's a lot there's a [TS]

00:04:38   lot of systematically similar about them [TS]

00:04:40   but there's enough about their approach [TS]

00:04:41   that's just different enough because one [TS]

00:04:43   of the things i find fascinating about [TS]

00:04:44   kingdom come [TS]

00:04:45   is how heavily weighed in ross mind back [TS]

00:04:50   catalogues and use them to create a [TS]

00:04:53   whole raft of new characters and and [TS]

00:04:54   they essentially invent like a third of [TS]

00:04:56   the characters in this book are [TS]

00:04:57   essentially invented a whole cloth with [TS]

00:04:59   them extrapolating at these characters [TS]

00:05:00   had kids without this is what they are [TS]

00:05:02   whereas in Marvel's it's kind of a love [TS]

00:05:05   letter to Marvel's creative history and [TS]

00:05:09   and it ends on I find actually have [TS]

00:05:11   something faintly unsettling note [TS]

00:05:13   Oh seriously yeah it's it gives you know [TS]

00:05:16   if you read the two of them like kingdom [TS]

00:05:17   comes this real catharsis and and by the [TS]

00:05:20   end of it you can almost see like a [TS]

00:05:21   freeze frame and then some nineteen [TS]

00:05:22   eighties ballot will start the credits [TS]

00:05:24   begin to roll but like Marvel to get the [TS]

00:05:26   last two pages and like whole whoa yeah [TS]

00:05:29   this this is happening that's it that's [TS]

00:05:30   really i think that's also really [TS]

00:05:32   implementing of the place that both [TS]

00:05:35   publishers were when these things were [TS]

00:05:36   coming out DC has always been you know [TS]

00:05:41   the the gods among us the hall and [TS]

00:05:44   wonder that sort of thing [TS]

00:05:45   marvel's always been grounded in reality [TS]

00:05:48   grounded in New York and things like [TS]

00:05:51   that so in in in these comics you've got [TS]

00:05:53   Marvel's which is all which is basically [TS]

00:05:57   human humans I've you story and Kingdom [TS]

00:06:00   Come which is a little bit less so [TS]

00:06:02   because we've got a lot more scenes with [TS]

00:06:04   those superheroes and things like that [TS]

00:06:06   so I i see them as representing what [TS]

00:06:10   each company was trying to do with their [TS]

00:06:12   comics at the time just done in this [TS]

00:06:14   amazingly heightened way that only alex [TS]

00:06:17   ross can do I mean he's the norman [TS]

00:06:19   rockwell of comics let's start with [TS]

00:06:22   Marvel's and we'll talk about about [TS]

00:06:24   these both intern marble marble skirt [TS]

00:06:26   boosie boo [TS]

00:06:27   music music music music rai ziac that [TS]

00:06:32   will conquer Kurt which its promise okay [TS]

00:06:36   k stands for quality they busiek and [TS]

00:06:39   Ross made this this this story that is a [TS]

00:06:43   beautiful piece of art i would say for [TS]

00:06:46   one but basically marvels [TS]

00:06:48   for those who don't know is a [TS]

00:06:49   essentially it's a retelling of some of [TS]

00:06:53   the core stories from the early years of [TS]

00:06:56   the marvel universe as seen through the [TS]

00:06:59   eyes of a photographer or I of the [TS]

00:07:03   photography I later at yes uh of a [TS]

00:07:07   photographer through the lens Wednesday [TS]

00:07:08   of the photographer who is taking [TS]

00:07:11   pictures of superhumans and in fact [TS]

00:07:12   creates a book of his photography called [TS]

00:07:15   Marvel's group whose cover is a mirror [TS]

00:07:18   image of the cover that we have on the [TS]

00:07:21   trade paperback of Marvel's this is a [TS]

00:07:23   four-issue miniseries from Marvel and [TS]

00:07:26   it's beautiful and it really is a [TS]

00:07:28   retelling of these major milestones from [TS]

00:07:31   the initial emergence of the classic [TS]

00:07:34   marvel heroes before the marvel universe [TS]

00:07:35   of the human torch and and the [TS]

00:07:37   Submariner to the emergence of the [TS]

00:07:41   Fantastic Four the x-men and spider-man [TS]

00:07:43   the appearance of Galactus all the way [TS]

00:07:45   through to the death of Gwen Stacy so [TS]

00:07:47   it's very much about continuity and [TS]

00:07:49   comic book history but the idea of [TS]

00:07:51   weaving all of these wild superhero [TS]

00:07:53   stories together in art that is that is [TS]

00:07:57   very realistic and with a with the [TS]

00:08:01   viewpoint always being that of the [TS]

00:08:03   humans the normal humans who are living [TS]

00:08:06   in this in this outsized world and I i [TS]

00:08:11   think i think we should we should start [TS]

00:08:13   there I I anybody let's let the artist [TS]

00:08:16   thing that drew me to it I caught my eye [TS]

00:08:18   I flipped through it and i bought it and [TS]

00:08:19   I read it and it is it is beautiful i [TS]

00:08:22   mean i don't know the history of alex [TS]

00:08:23   ross although I i can spot his work now [TS]

00:08:26   because it is alex ross once you've [TS]

00:08:30   developed by for roster like oh wait [TS]

00:08:31   there in areas but it is it is [TS]

00:08:34   spectacular and and his takes on these [TS]

00:08:36   Marvel these classic marvel heroes i [TS]

00:08:38   like the fact that all i knew it just [TS]

00:08:40   enough about marvel that I knew what [TS]

00:08:42   these stories were and I could recognize [TS]

00:08:44   the people a but you know only the broad [TS]

00:08:48   strokes and then he's telling us the [TS]

00:08:50   details from this one character's [TS]

00:08:51   perspective one of the things I really [TS]

00:08:53   love about the art is how insanely [TS]

00:08:55   period-specific he is because he moves [TS]

00:08:58   all the way from the late thirties to [TS]

00:08:59   the late 1960s [TS]

00:09:01   and he's following the same group of [TS]

00:09:03   characters and you can see the clothes [TS]

00:09:04   begin to shift over time since you can [TS]

00:09:06   see how hairdo shift the protagonist [TS]

00:09:09   wife especially they do a wonderful job [TS]

00:09:10   moving her from being a war bride to a [TS]

00:09:15   polyester pantsuit cloud housewife of [TS]

00:09:17   the nineteen seventies and it's it's [TS]

00:09:19   plausible and it's believable and you [TS]

00:09:21   can see the ghost of the woman she was [TS]

00:09:22   in the thirties and forties so I love [TS]

00:09:25   that are one of the biggest easter eggs [TS]

00:09:28   in my opinion in his art is if you look [TS]

00:09:30   at gwen stacy it seems to be modeled [TS]

00:09:32   after the actress Sheryl Lee and its [TS]

00:09:35   lower Pole [TS]

00:09:36   yeah it's laura palmer and there's a lot [TS]

00:09:38   of Laura Palmer image imagery especially [TS]

00:09:40   when she's got the water following [TS]

00:09:41   hundred face and she's smiling and she's [TS]

00:09:42   on the world and what I always enjoys [TS]

00:09:45   how seamlessly he he weaves in people [TS]

00:09:48   who he whose faces he's obviously [TS]

00:09:50   inspired by and how he can age people up [TS]

00:09:52   to age them down and put them in a wide [TS]

00:09:54   variety of different situations it's [TS]

00:09:56   just a beautiful book to look at you get [TS]

00:09:58   Edwin Newman in there a one-point which [TS]

00:10:00   also makes me laugh NBC News anchor [TS]

00:10:02   Edwin Newman I one of the things that I [TS]

00:10:04   i find fascinating about marbles is you [TS]

00:10:07   know that they have this is sliding [TS]

00:10:08   timescale thing that happens in [TS]

00:10:09   comic-book continuity Marvel's premise [TS]

00:10:11   is when the comics written is when [TS]

00:10:14   things happened [TS]

00:10:14   yeah and so it is a locked in time the [TS]

00:10:17   they all emerged in the sixties 45 to [TS]

00:10:20   set the Submariner and one regular [TS]

00:10:23   originally namely the timely comics [TS]

00:10:25   right you're 30 and 40 and then they [TS]

00:10:27   have to America story from world war two [TS]

00:10:29   and then everything else from the marvel [TS]

00:10:31   universe was in that the Lenalee Kirby [TS]

00:10:33   did coke period in the sixties and then [TS]

00:10:35   forward forward into the early seventies [TS]

00:10:37   and that's the so it's all period piece [TS]

00:10:39   which i really like i like the idea that [TS]

00:10:41   they're like this is when the stories to [TS]

00:10:43   resist a history there's no great [TS]

00:10:44   economy exactly we're gonna tell it like [TS]

00:10:46   like it is and in the in the back matter [TS]

00:10:49   he a music it imagines that you know [TS]

00:10:53   this is all happening simultaneously and [TS]

00:10:55   he said as he did the research he [TS]

00:10:56   realized he could weave this stuff [TS]

00:10:58   together as if it was all happening [TS]

00:11:00   simultaneously which is kind of a neat [TS]

00:11:02   neat trick but anyway that not not to [TS]

00:11:06   not to derail what you were saying Lisa [TS]

00:11:08   but i just-i I think the period detail [TS]

00:11:10   is fantastic and and the fact that it's [TS]

00:11:12   based on when these stories were told [TS]

00:11:13   that these are 60 [TS]

00:11:15   stories happening in the sixties not you [TS]

00:11:17   know mapped into the nineties or [TS]

00:11:20   something like they could have been I i [TS]

00:11:22   think that's really important actually [TS]

00:11:23   and it reflects it actually reflects the [TS]

00:11:26   way marvel comics was back when these [TS]

00:11:28   stories were being produced because the [TS]

00:11:31   sliding timescale came in later and but [TS]

00:11:35   initially they were almost doing [TS]

00:11:38   storytelling in real time Peter Parker's [TS]

00:11:40   a sophomore in high school when amazing [TS]

00:11:44   fantasy comes out and then a couple of [TS]

00:11:47   years later he's graduated from high [TS]

00:11:49   school in real-time practically and then [TS]

00:11:51   somewhere along the way I think they [TS]

00:11:53   decided that it's time to get it's time [TS]

00:11:56   to go with the simpsons model it's time [TS]

00:11:57   to say that everything that fantastic [TS]

00:12:01   four number-one happened 10 or 15 years [TS]

00:12:04   ago regardless of wind right but yeah [TS]

00:12:06   your point your point is great Jason [TS]

00:12:08   that this is this is a love letter not [TS]

00:12:11   only to the old Marvel stories but to [TS]

00:12:13   the way the old Marvel stories were told [TS]

00:12:15   something important historically in the [TS]

00:12:19   the world of music is that this was [TS]

00:12:22   really his big breakout work as a writer [TS]

00:12:24   he had been an editor for Marvel writing [TS]

00:12:26   for Marvel Age which is something that I [TS]

00:12:28   love picking up back issues of when I [TS]

00:12:30   was a kid and in in doing the process of [TS]

00:12:34   the research for this project I think [TS]

00:12:37   foundationally a lot of what he would [TS]

00:12:42   bring to other projects like his runs on [TS]

00:12:44   Avengers and various things that he [TS]

00:12:46   saved from the clutches of the Marvel [TS]

00:12:48   bankruptcy era when it was really [TS]

00:12:49   circling the drain creatively and [TS]

00:12:51   financially a lot of as big of a comics [TS]

00:12:56   lovers he already was feelin Marvel's as [TS]

00:12:59   a historical project is something that [TS]

00:13:01   really they're really opened up the [TS]

00:13:05   possibilities what he would be able to [TS]

00:13:06   do as a creative going beyond the [TS]

00:13:09   editorial roller marvel it's easy to say [TS]

00:13:11   but both of these things but especially [TS]

00:13:13   marvels is it's a love letter continuity [TS]

00:13:15   you could you could even do ride it as [TS]

00:13:18   being continuity porn it is literally [TS]

00:13:19   like what if we stitched everything [TS]

00:13:21   together and sew it all happen at once [TS]

00:13:22   but the great thing is you don't have to [TS]

00:13:24   know all the cognitive it stands by [TS]

00:13:26   itself though so I'm [TS]

00:13:28   not so sure about that it's got great [TS]

00:13:30   bones though because so many of the [TS]

00:13:31   classic panels turn out to have been [TS]

00:13:33   pictures he took yeah that's true it is [TS]

00:13:36   a beautiful conceit right having of the [TS]

00:13:38   this be the chronicler of the Marvel [TS]

00:13:40   Universe and him having these amazing [TS]

00:13:43   shot those are great moment where he [TS]

00:13:44   scoffs at Peter Parker the stupid kid [TS]

00:13:46   photographers yeah yeah yeah stupid mean [TS]

00:13:48   pictures that's better than a couple [TS]

00:13:50   times [TS]

00:13:50   oh yeah he rolls his eyes at youngjae [TS]

00:13:52   jonah Jameson for saying when i run the [TS]

00:13:55   bugle yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah so Erica [TS]

00:13:59   had you read this before and do you have [TS]

00:14:02   much background in the stuff for you [TS]

00:14:04   somebody who is coming to a a [TS]

00:14:06   celebration of continuity from a place [TS]

00:14:08   of not really knowing the continuity got [TS]

00:14:10   that last one yeah it was ok so so tell [TS]

00:14:13   me about that i've read a very few very [TS]

00:14:16   few issues of things in the Marvel [TS]

00:14:18   Universe but i think it was that must [TS]

00:14:20   have been all stuff that was either not [TS]

00:14:22   included here after this because i think [TS]

00:14:23   i read some powers and yeah this is and [TS]

00:14:27   all of alias which i loved i think this [TS]

00:14:29   i think this story essential with other [TS]

00:14:31   than the last couple of pages the story [TS]

00:14:33   essentially ends with Gwen Stacy guys [TS]

00:14:34   that's like what 1974 something like [TS]

00:14:37   that that that's about right [TS]

00:14:39   if it's your only off by maybe a year [TS]

00:14:41   yeah it is really it's the early to [TS]

00:14:43   mid-70s oh it's a long time ago when the [TS]

00:14:45   story kind of grinds to a halt [TS]

00:14:46   so whatever the day three so what did [TS]

00:14:48   you think of my knowledge [TS]

00:14:50   you know you can't live in the United [TS]

00:14:52   States for most of your life without [TS]

00:14:53   picking up and kind of knowing who some [TS]

00:14:55   of these characters are so I had heard [TS]

00:14:57   of the human torch and I know that the [TS]

00:14:59   Fantastic Four is a thing but i have no [TS]

00:15:01   idea who those four are or what they do [TS]

00:15:03   of course that's fantastic though we'll [TS]

00:15:07   we'll which human torture you told me [TS]

00:15:10   yes there's the originally they were due [TS]

00:15:12   to human torch's well I know about this [TS]

00:15:15   one because that's the 1i read [TS]

00:15:16   previously i had heard the words human [TS]

00:15:19   and torch put together but that's about [TS]

00:15:22   it [TS]

00:15:22   so you didn't notice that there were in [TS]

00:15:24   fact two different human torch's just in [TS]

00:15:26   Marvel's this is true home meet okay not [TS]

00:15:29   the synthetic human torch at the [TS]

00:15:34   beginning is not the same as the one [TS]

00:15:36   who's in the Fantastic Four believe it [TS]

00:15:37   or not [TS]

00:15:38   and I guess I didn't even really catch [TS]

00:15:39   that there was it now [TS]

00:15:41   ok now it's coming back to me that there [TS]

00:15:42   was a human torch in fantastic four so [TS]

00:15:44   so Erica doesn't did this story makes [TS]

00:15:46   sense at all did it was a pocket of to [TS]

00:15:48   you or was it just like a i'm really [TS]

00:15:51   curious or ordered it being no sense and [TS]

00:15:53   was kind of pointless so what how would [TS]

00:15:54   you get out of it it made great sense to [TS]

00:15:57   me [TS]

00:15:57   i I've totally understood i I don't I [TS]

00:15:59   know that I didn't catch every last [TS]

00:16:01   little bit and piece you guys got way [TS]

00:16:03   more depth out of it than I did but even [TS]

00:16:05   just on the surface it is it is a [TS]

00:16:08   beautifully told story and it's got that [TS]

00:16:11   thing that I just love even if i don't [TS]

00:16:13   know a property I still sometimes just [TS]

00:16:15   like dipping into the celebratory works [TS]

00:16:19   of that property so anniversary special [TS]

00:16:21   of something like when I was young and [TS]

00:16:23   watching the five doctors i had no idea [TS]

00:16:25   about most of the stuff that happened in [TS]

00:16:27   the thing 25 years prepped for 20 years [TS]

00:16:29   previous to that but i still really love [TS]

00:16:31   the heck out of it because it was clear [TS]

00:16:33   that there is a bunch of history that i [TS]

00:16:35   didn't know about yet and that [TS]

00:16:36   tantalizes me and makes me more [TS]

00:16:38   interested in a work so i could tell [TS]

00:16:40   that there were plenty of gaps in my [TS]

00:16:43   knowledge but it was just this great [TS]

00:16:45   sort of nostalgic hug to marvel in [TS]

00:16:49   general and that just it made me feel [TS]

00:16:51   warm and fuzzy like i was i was coming [TS]

00:16:53   into something really late but it was [TS]

00:16:55   something where everybody is celebrating [TS]

00:16:56   and I just wanted to be in on the party [TS]

00:16:58   well I'm coming from that at this from [TS]

00:17:01   almost the exact opposite perspective [TS]

00:17:03   when i was when i was really in the [TS]

00:17:07   Marvel Comics I was painfully into [TS]

00:17:09   marvel comics I was a footnote reader i [TS]

00:17:13   was a subscriber to marvel saga Marvel [TS]

00:17:17   saga which was a series that was [TS]

00:17:20   basically text pieces with isolated [TS]

00:17:22   panels that tried to tell the history of [TS]

00:17:24   every single marvel comic ever produced [TS]

00:17:28   and putting them all in story [TS]

00:17:31   chronological order so i should be prime [TS]

00:17:35   I should be the prime audience for [TS]

00:17:36   Marvel's because it basically is like [TS]

00:17:39   Marvel saga with a story i have [TS]

00:17:42   recovered somewhat uh it's yeah I I was [TS]

00:17:46   not I did not see I did not seek out the [TS]

00:17:49   footnotes for either of these of [TS]

00:17:51   I'm rereading them and I remember how [TS]

00:17:54   much I used to care about the cottony [TS]

00:17:56   continuity details of the submariners [TS]

00:18:00   latest attack on New York and things [TS]

00:18:03   like that and i think that Marvel's [TS]

00:18:08   probably relies on that continuity a [TS]

00:18:10   little too much for my taste [TS]

00:18:12   I didn't get the same nostalgic feeling [TS]

00:18:15   that Erica had I was I was like okay I'm [TS]

00:18:18   a little separated from this stuff now [TS]

00:18:19   is this hitting me emotionally and it [TS]

00:18:23   didn't quite so much anymore and i think [TS]

00:18:25   it relies a little bit on that sort of [TS]

00:18:28   love the Marvel Universe more than it [TS]

00:18:29   should interesting so it don't tell me [TS]

00:18:32   more about that i mean i hit me just [TS]

00:18:34   right where I think I feel like I knew [TS]

00:18:36   just enough without knowing enough with [TS]

00:18:38   the footnote details that it just kind [TS]

00:18:40   of washed over me and I felt that same [TS]

00:18:42   kind of warm fuzzy feeling is Erica [TS]

00:18:43   where I'm like oh yes these are like I [TS]

00:18:46   konechno Galactus and spider-man and [TS]

00:18:48   Gwen Stacy and all of that without like [TS]

00:18:50   marinating in the details a minute maybe [TS]

00:18:52   maybe it's just because I knew too much [TS]

00:18:55   and I was embarrassed by it because if i [TS]

00:18:57   had forgotten that I knew who Betty Dene [TS]

00:18:59   was Betty Dene the girlfriend of the [TS]

00:19:01   Submariner back in the day and then she [TS]

00:19:04   shows up again and I remember and I i'm [TS]

00:19:06   actually I'm actually a little [TS]

00:19:08   embarrassed that I know who she was and [TS]

00:19:10   I'm embarrassed that I'm being fan [TS]

00:19:11   serviced this podcast is over [TS]

00:19:14   no no I i had Jerry you chip no III is [TS]

00:19:20   not being a comic book fan is I i am [TS]

00:19:23   amazed at at the level of detail I i [TS]

00:19:25   searched for the kingdom come [TS]

00:19:28   annotations which are out there and I [TS]

00:19:29   search for Marvel's annotations because [TS]

00:19:31   they're actually footnotes in the back [TS]

00:19:32   and there is a marvel sanitation don't [TS]

00:19:34   Google the marbles annotation on the [TS]

00:19:35   internet challenges it's a terrible it's [TS]

00:19:37   like worse than the one that's in the [TS]

00:19:39   book there's like yeah I guess there's [TS]

00:19:40   some stuff from the old Marvel honestly [TS]

00:19:42   have no idea what's going on so I come [TS]

00:19:45   on Marvel fans up your game a little bit [TS]

00:19:47   but but the footnotes and marvels pretty [TS]

00:19:49   good but they're both wrote that there [TS]

00:19:51   is a layer to both of these things that [TS]

00:19:53   is going to reward the gigantic nerd who [TS]

00:19:55   remembers all that continuity and knows [TS]

00:19:58   that oh that's a reference to that and I [TS]

00:20:00   i think that's one of the questions [TS]

00:20:01   about both of these is can they be [TS]

00:20:02   enjoyed as works on their own air [TS]

00:20:04   it seems to say yes oh and and what ship [TS]

00:20:07   says I almost am starting to wonder now [TS]

00:20:09   if they can be enjoyed more if you don't [TS]

00:20:12   know too much about them versus not [TS]

00:20:14   enough which is make sorry to maybe [TS]

00:20:16   maybe there's a middle ground actually [TS]

00:20:18   maybe maybe it works for Erica because [TS]

00:20:21   she's not been introduced to the [TS]

00:20:23   minutiae maybe it works for somebody [TS]

00:20:27   who's still marinating it in it and then [TS]

00:20:30   there's me sort of in this ambivalent [TS]

00:20:33   middle stage and i'm having trouble [TS]

00:20:34   following the story of Phil Sheldon and [TS]

00:20:38   all that stuff because I'm really [TS]

00:20:40   engaging with this continuity that used [TS]

00:20:43   to be important to me and it's not if I [TS]

00:20:45   could throw in a weird [TS]

00:20:47   middle middle ground I discovered [TS]

00:20:49   Marvel's in 1994 as as a youth as a [TS]

00:20:52   youth I don't know how what is [TS]

00:20:55   yeah you know one of these miscreants [TS]

00:20:56   youths it's historically in the world of [TS]

00:21:01   Marvel events and cool things and all [TS]

00:21:03   that kind of stuff [TS]

00:21:04   it follows the trilogy of infinity [TS]

00:21:06   crossovers Infinity Gauntlet definitely [TS]

00:21:08   infinity war infinity crusade and I was [TS]

00:21:12   getting heavily into comics around then [TS]

00:21:14   and confused by a bunch of that kind of [TS]

00:21:16   stuff i like some of it and other parts [TS]

00:21:18   of it drove me totally crazy and then [TS]

00:21:21   when I got to Marvel's there was stuff [TS]

00:21:23   that rang a little bit familiar there [TS]

00:21:27   were bits and pieces of things I you [TS]

00:21:28   know I knew who the Submariner was I [TS]

00:21:30   didn't know that much about him I knew [TS]

00:21:32   he existed and he had wings on his feet [TS]

00:21:35   and a super-powered speedo I knew about [TS]

00:21:38   spider-man I knew about various [TS]

00:21:41   characters that that show up but then [TS]

00:21:43   there were others like I i eventually [TS]

00:21:45   figured out and I was confused at first [TS]

00:21:47   too i thought there was just the one [TS]

00:21:48   human torch but no there were two human [TS]

00:21:50   torch's and then I wanted to know about [TS]

00:21:52   this first human torch i never heard [TS]

00:21:54   about and I want to know about this [TS]

00:21:56   character in that character that I've [TS]

00:21:58   never heard about and it was also get [TS]

00:22:01   this itself was alex ross his big break [TS]

00:22:04   into comics coming from a background of [TS]

00:22:07   the mother is a commercial artist and [TS]

00:22:10   himself admiring the living daylights [TS]

00:22:12   out of people like George Peres who by [TS]

00:22:14   then was very well-known [TS]

00:22:16   44 work on on both the both the actual [TS]

00:22:19   actually at that time I think was mostly [TS]

00:22:20   DC stuff it would come later that his [TS]

00:22:23   big Marvel Avengers stuff would come [TS]

00:22:25   that burning rights and he was big fan [TS]

00:22:27   of bernie wrightson to he was he was [TS]

00:22:29   influenced by both the commercial art [TS]

00:22:32   Norman Rockwell side of things as well [TS]

00:22:34   as the pop art comic-book sort of thing [TS]

00:22:36   and in the way that this red introduced [TS]

00:22:41   a a different feel for comics language [TS]

00:22:43   that people were used to wear it was [TS]

00:22:44   lineart with splash color and here there [TS]

00:22:48   is there is this greater the depth to [TS]

00:22:50   the imagery there was this piano [TS]

00:22:52   painterly quality to it that I just have [TS]

00:22:53   never seen I hadn't read Watchmen at [TS]

00:22:55   this point even though [TS]

00:22:57   yeah it had been out for almost 10 years [TS]

00:22:59   marvel's for me redefined what I [TS]

00:23:02   conceived as possible within the [TS]

00:23:04   comic-book form and I think this is what [TS]

00:23:06   it was this around the time that that [TS]

00:23:08   Scott McLeod's understanding comics came [TS]

00:23:11   out I think it's a little earlier than [TS]

00:23:13   that that was no understand comics was [TS]

00:23:16   93 so this is what a cone or is Right [TS]

00:23:18   couple yeah this is yeah this is [TS]

00:23:19   actually this was 94 94 was Marvel so [TS]

00:23:22   this is just the year after and I [TS]

00:23:25   remember I remember rather clearly [TS]

00:23:27   around the same general hazy time in my [TS]

00:23:30   past discovery marvels and Kingdom calm [TS]

00:23:32   and understanding comics all in the same [TS]

00:23:34   breath and I was then then I I gained my [TS]

00:23:38   full powers as the nerd in high school [TS]

00:23:41   saying no there is a greater level at [TS]

00:23:44   which comics can tell stories that's [TS]

00:23:46   like AP comics is what you did there you [TS]

00:23:48   just said to the entire curriculum for [TS]

00:23:49   AP comics Advanced Placement common sure [TS]

00:23:53   i read this stuff about how mark waid [TS]

00:23:55   who wrote the other one studying comics [TS]

00:24:00   character back stories and righting [TS]

00:24:02   himself file cards as a kid and he had [TS]

00:24:04   these no card boxes full of stuff that [TS]

00:24:06   he actually pulled from with his new [TS]

00:24:08   shield series that's out there and I [TS]

00:24:10   found myself doing a less dedicated [TS]

00:24:13   version of that mark was the a student I [TS]

00:24:16   was the like b+ b-minus student [TS]

00:24:18   ok so I the effort for me it it it [TS]

00:24:22   engendered this hunger for finding out [TS]

00:24:25   who all these characters were and I [TS]

00:24:26   didn't have the benefit of footnotes [TS]

00:24:27   with [TS]

00:24:28   with either one of these so it was kind [TS]

00:24:32   of limited to what I could find at the [TS]

00:24:33   comic shop or what I could ask the guy [TS]

00:24:36   with the ready ponytail to show me that [TS]

00:24:39   he would ensue [TS]

00:24:40   well I don't know if you really want to [TS]

00:24:41   read the half and then you'd actually go [TS]

00:24:45   pull off the shelf or so for me what it [TS]

00:24:47   is I think what did as somebody who had [TS]

00:24:48   sort of stopped reading comics is it [TS]

00:24:51   brought I felt like it [TS]

00:24:53   it allowed me to let go of the details [TS]

00:24:56   of the you know ins and outs of we of [TS]

00:24:59   monthly comics that had sort of [TS]

00:25:02   frustrated me and take a step back and [TS]

00:25:05   look at the bigger picture of these [TS]

00:25:06   iconic stories these things that were [TS]

00:25:08   just part of the if you read Marvel [TS]

00:25:10   Comics part of the kind of collective [TS]

00:25:12   unconscious of marvel that like [TS]

00:25:13   everybody knew Galactus you know the [TS]

00:25:15   fantastic 4 etcetera etcetera everybody [TS]

00:25:17   knew back when Stacy and it all just [TS]

00:25:18   sort of it happened in the past but it [TS]

00:25:20   was all there and just to see it [TS]

00:25:22   portrayed like this it actually made me [TS]

00:25:24   realize that I had a great deal of [TS]

00:25:26   affection for this stuff and even though [TS]

00:25:30   i had sort of put aside and said no no [TS]

00:25:33   I'm not gonna do that stuff anymore it [TS]

00:25:35   made me rediscover our a reservoir of [TS]

00:25:38   love for comics that i didn't realize i [TS]

00:25:42   still had it for the end for these [TS]

00:25:44   stories and for the the big picture of [TS]

00:25:46   it and i think that's how it impacted me [TS]

00:25:49   I wanted to ask all of you about and [TS]

00:25:52   this this is also something that [TS]

00:25:53   attaches to kingdom come [TS]

00:25:55   the idea behind marvels is at its core a [TS]

00:25:58   human's I view of super super humans [TS]

00:26:00   what was it like to be a person watching [TS]

00:26:04   a world where we're super people walk [TS]

00:26:09   the earth and on that level I I find it [TS]

00:26:13   fascinating there that that's that shot [TS]

00:26:14   of Galactus towering over the city on [TS]

00:26:17   that on that is that it's a single i'm [TS]

00:26:20   not sure if it's a single or spread but [TS]

00:26:22   it is a spectacular piece of art that [TS]

00:26:25   short sleeves in all [TS]

00:26:27   yeah well is just uh amazing and there's [TS]

00:26:31   that there's a spread with the kind of [TS]

00:26:32   fire in the sky is Galactus arrives and [TS]

00:26:35   they don't understand what's going on [TS]

00:26:36   and there's yeah it's a single page of [TS]

00:26:38   just Galactus towering over everything [TS]

00:26:40   and you know in my mind that is what [TS]

00:26:43   Marvel's is about it is about wee wee [TS]

00:26:46   all the other comics take the main [TS]

00:26:48   characters being super humans marvels is [TS]

00:26:50   about the humans looking at the super [TS]

00:26:52   humans and and an army in our main [TS]

00:26:54   character loving them and following them [TS]

00:26:57   and eventually kind of as some of us do [TS]

00:27:01   when we read comics for a long time [TS]

00:27:02   getting tired of them and feeling sort [TS]

00:27:05   of disaffected like they've seen this [TS]

00:27:07   story before I I you know I i I'm [TS]

00:27:10   fascinated by Monty you have you you've [TS]

00:27:12   been you've been kind of quiet you have [TS]

00:27:13   any thoughts about the humans I view of [TS]

00:27:15   Marvel's that's what i think is the [TS]

00:27:18   coolest part of Marvel's is that it [TS]

00:27:21   portrays will try to portray what it's [TS]

00:27:23   like to live in a world where a you're [TS]

00:27:25   having to rebuild the city all the time [TS]

00:27:28   because as soon as one gigantic threat [TS]

00:27:31   from outer space it is pushed away [TS]

00:27:34   another one shows up and I like my [TS]

00:27:38   favorite part in it is the moment when [TS]

00:27:40   the narrator whose name I can't pull [TS]

00:27:43   right now Phil then I love a little [TS]

00:27:46   Sheldon will just when the sheldon is [TS]

00:27:49   explaining why his marbles book should [TS]

00:27:51   be published which is see how excited [TS]

00:27:54   everybody here in New York is to see the [TS]

00:27:57   human torch in the distance [TS]

00:27:58   imagine the people in peoria never see [TS]

00:28:01   this at all right and is trying to [TS]

00:28:04   picture a world where you're seeing the [TS]

00:28:06   superheroes all the time I think that's [TS]

00:28:10   really interesting and it's something [TS]

00:28:12   heard music went on to do i think even [TS]

00:28:14   more interestingly in more detail with [TS]

00:28:16   Astro City there's a there's a page [TS]

00:28:19   where in the background there there i [TS]

00:28:21   think it might even be when he's talking [TS]

00:28:22   to the editor who's sort of turning him [TS]

00:28:23   down to the book it but definitely there [TS]

00:28:26   are there are a few of these things wear [TS]

00:28:27   out the window there are just flying [TS]

00:28:29   people passing by like on their way [TS]

00:28:32   somewhere or to a fight or fighting or [TS]

00:28:34   whatever but it it it's somewhat subtly [TS]

00:28:38   simple message that this is a world [TS]

00:28:41   where you know you look at your window [TS]

00:28:43   and there's people flying by because [TS]

00:28:45   there are super people everywhere [TS]

00:28:47   yeah and I just like say that although i [TS]

00:28:49   think Alex crosses are is beautiful and [TS]

00:28:52   i can't imagine how long this thing took [TS]

00:28:53   to create [TS]

00:28:54   aight with every panel being an oil [TS]

00:28:56   painting [TS]

00:28:57   sometimes I feel like his art is a [TS]

00:28:59   little static like it doesn't really [TS]

00:29:01   look like people are moving but here it [TS]

00:29:04   works because so much of it is a [TS]

00:29:07   photographer's view right yet it's [TS]

00:29:11   supposed to be a still shot of giant man [TS]

00:29:14   posing up there right since he uses so [TS]

00:29:17   much photographic reference which if you [TS]

00:29:19   get the trade paperback you can see the [TS]

00:29:20   examples of it it does feel sometimes [TS]

00:29:23   like you're watching you know it you're [TS]

00:29:25   looking at a photograph [TS]

00:29:27   yeah and if you talk about scott mccloud [TS]

00:29:28   I mean there's the the idea of the [TS]

00:29:30   impression of movement between panels [TS]

00:29:31   and in this I think you're right it [TS]

00:29:33   works because this is a story about a [TS]

00:29:35   still photographer and so yeah sort of [TS]

00:29:37   the conceit is you know we're seeing [TS]

00:29:38   still moments from dynamic if they ask [TS]

00:29:42   and there's also this heightened not the [TS]

00:29:44   sort of heightened realism more so than [TS]

00:29:48   in kingdom come on if you look at the [TS]

00:29:49   superhero costumes in Marvel's you see [TS]

00:29:53   all the wrinkles yes my name is Michael [TS]

00:29:56   spiderman spiderman looks almost [TS]

00:29:57   amateurish which makes kind of sense [TS]

00:29:59   it's a teenager who sewed his own [TS]

00:30:01   costume and things like that there is [TS]

00:30:04   something about this art that is not [TS]

00:30:06   just static but it is almost hyper [TS]

00:30:09   representational yeah and I sometimes I [TS]

00:30:12   want that and sometimes I want you know [TS]

00:30:14   Bruce Timm or mike pair of X Batman [TS]

00:30:17   adventures you know that sort of thing [TS]

00:30:19   yeah where you where you at the [TS]

00:30:21   simplicity the other end of the scott [TS]

00:30:22   mccloud spectrum but for this this is [TS]

00:30:25   great [TS]

00:30:25   yeah I feel like his art is beautiful [TS]

00:30:28   not necessarily dynamic but in this [TS]

00:30:30   context it's perfect [TS]

00:30:33   I do feel in kingdom come could stand to [TS]

00:30:35   be a little more dynamic it still looks [TS]

00:30:37   like they're posing have been here for [TS]

00:30:38   me and it helped to help to ratchet up [TS]

00:30:41   the nostalgia factor because in a way i [TS]

00:30:43   felt like i was looking through a photo [TS]

00:30:45   album the history of the life of Marvel [TS]

00:30:49   it really is a genius concede to have it [TS]

00:30:51   through the eyes of photographer because [TS]

00:30:53   it's so perfectly fits the style of the [TS]

00:30:56   art and the composition of the frames [TS]

00:30:59   it's it's just a lovely way to reinforce [TS]

00:31:00   that all the way through it also does a [TS]

00:31:03   great job of covering the fact that this [TS]

00:31:05   is his first [TS]

00:31:07   sequential art work of you know of this [TS]

00:31:10   scale or anything anything remotely this [TS]

00:31:12   epic in scope you know beyond a little [TS]

00:31:17   bit of work that he had done and I I you [TS]

00:31:22   know call me controversial the arts [TS]

00:31:25   beautiful controversial am you want to [TS]

00:31:27   thank you thank you i will accept my [TS]

00:31:30   plot its its its iconic and the thing [TS]

00:31:35   that that number of us are pointing to [TS]

00:31:36   is it's not particularly dynamic there [TS]

00:31:38   are some really amazing shots within [TS]

00:31:42   this their memorable but looking back on [TS]

00:31:44   it and i've ever visited a couple of [TS]

00:31:47   times over the years there there are [TS]

00:31:51   very few bits that really are just [TS]

00:31:53   indelible in my mind there more of those [TS]

00:31:56   i would say with kingdom common as time [TS]

00:31:57   goes on [TS]

00:31:59   there's still the painterly the single [TS]

00:32:03   snapshot kind of field to the way that [TS]

00:32:05   his visual storytelling works but you [TS]

00:32:08   know it does evolve and get a little bit [TS]

00:32:10   more dynamic a little bit more to where [TS]

00:32:12   you you feel the illusion of the [TS]

00:32:15   sequential are moving you forward much [TS]

00:32:18   more pronounced and stuff like Earth X [TS]

00:32:20   number of years later but if if anything [TS]

00:32:23   i have my friends who say oh man alex [TS]

00:32:25   ross i just wish Alex Ross would do [TS]

00:32:27   everything I don't I think there's a [TS]

00:32:29   very specific type of storytelling that [TS]

00:32:31   his art is very beautifully attuned to [TS]

00:32:35   like this like these massively oversized [TS]

00:32:38   single prestige edition things that DC [TS]

00:32:41   did they did one for Superman they [TS]

00:32:42   didn't refer Batman they do refreshes am [TS]

00:32:44   that is some of the best shows Mr that's [TS]

00:32:46   ever been done [TS]

00:32:47   they did a really great Wonder Woman 12 [TS]

00:32:49   i think there might have been one or two [TS]

00:32:51   others [TS]

00:32:52   this I think is is a great encapsulation [TS]

00:32:57   of if if this type of storytelling is [TS]

00:32:59   good for you then the things that alex [TS]

00:33:02   ross art is on is the sort of thing that [TS]

00:33:04   you can take but i don't think any of us [TS]

00:33:07   can can really necessarily go man I [TS]

00:33:10   remember entire pages of this art the [TS]

00:33:14   way that we do something with dave [TS]

00:33:16   gibbons are from watchmen well I can but [TS]

00:33:19   on [TS]

00:33:19   you only a pet only because there's [TS]

00:33:21   panels that's an entire page that I [TS]

00:33:23   happen to like that panel right like he [TS]

00:33:26   does a good splash panel [TS]

00:33:27   I don't know I've had a lot of effort [TS]

00:33:28   kingdom come a few times and so there's [TS]

00:33:30   a few panels i remember pretty [TS]

00:33:32   explicitly just because the imagery [TS]

00:33:33   struck me one way around here I'm saying [TS]

00:33:35   I'm saying Marvel specifically well not [TS]

00:33:38   as much as kingdom come [TS]

00:33:40   the giant man shot i think but again [TS]

00:33:42   that's because it's a giant panel hug [TS]

00:33:44   when Stacy holding her face up yeah [TS]

00:33:46   right to the in the rain with her hands [TS]

00:33:48   up around her up its that's and just the [TS]

00:33:50   quality of life in that panel is is [TS]

00:33:52   practically translucent and every time I [TS]

00:33:54   see it I'm just struck and how he [TS]

00:33:56   managed to capture the experience of the [TS]

00:33:57   Sun shower [TS]

00:33:58   yeah that though the ones that he sells [TS]

00:34:00   giclee prints for a giant pile of money [TS]

00:34:03   at San Diego of like those though [TS]

00:34:05   they're there much fewer of those and [TS]

00:34:07   morals than there are in kingdom come [TS]

00:34:08   Thy I feel like I feel like with [TS]

00:34:10   Marvel's every panel is essentially a [TS]

00:34:12   cover and the kingdom come I feel like [TS]

00:34:15   he dialed it back a little bit and it's [TS]

00:34:17   a little more it feels a little more [TS]

00:34:19   sequential but I don't mind that [TS]

00:34:20   actually think maybe I prefer it but I [TS]

00:34:22   think Marvel is the perfect place for [TS]

00:34:23   that right [TS]

00:34:24   the whole idea of Marvel's is everything [TS]

00:34:27   is happy that is happening that we are [TS]

00:34:28   showing you is iconic this is the photo [TS]

00:34:31   album [TS]

00:34:32   that's exactly right of that I want to [TS]

00:34:35   mention by the way that there's that [TS]

00:34:36   there's that scene where Phil is in the [TS]

00:34:37   Daily Bugle office and spider-man climbs [TS]

00:34:40   up the outside the building and that's [TS]

00:34:42   that's the moment where you see him [TS]

00:34:44   close up and he's got the kind of [TS]

00:34:46   wrinkly outfit and I remember that was [TS]

00:34:48   the first time after years of reading [TS]

00:34:50   spider-man from when I was a little kid [TS]

00:34:51   that I thought experiments costume is [TS]

00:34:53   kind of weird because like this is at a [TS]

00:34:56   realistic depiction of it and it's [TS]

00:34:57   problematic and I remember thinking of [TS]

00:34:59   this very panel when I went and saw the [TS]

00:35:02   toby mcwire spider-man in 2002 and end [TS]

00:35:05   and noticed how they tried to deal with [TS]

00:35:08   how you depicted actual human being [TS]

00:35:10   wearing the spider-man costume because [TS]

00:35:12   it's kind of hard and it is kinda not [TS]

00:35:15   again that's why i like the x-men was [TS]

00:35:16   like we'll put them in leather jackets [TS]

00:35:18   forget about the costumes and and it [TS]

00:35:22   really worked for me in that Bay in it [TS]

00:35:24   which is kinda fast because it's trying [TS]

00:35:25   to apply some real world [TS]

00:35:27   textures and physics to these things [TS]

00:35:29   that were so totally not that and that's [TS]

00:35:31   why I think Marvel's work so well as a [TS]

00:35:34   comic book entirely composed of of [TS]

00:35:36   covers essentially one of the [TS]

00:35:38   interesting mood things that he did it [TS]

00:35:40   was the first time that I remember [TS]

00:35:41   seeing the x-men and finding them kind [TS]

00:35:43   of terrifying and they were directed as [TS]

00:35:46   monsters all me yeah i mean that this is [TS]

00:35:48   glowing red devil Hugh who in the first [TS]

00:35:51   appearance of the x-men in Marvel [TS]

00:35:53   signers never look creepier than marble [TS]

00:35:55   yeah and that valuable because I've [TS]

00:35:58   always thought that's one of the weakest [TS]

00:35:59   parts of the x-men that they're in a [TS]

00:36:01   world with the Fantastic Four and the [TS]

00:36:05   Submariner and all these other [TS]

00:36:06   superheroes and spider-man but mutants [TS]

00:36:09   are feared yeah what do you care if I [TS]

00:36:11   guys a mutant or got it from cosmic rays [TS]

00:36:13   or gamma radiation [TS]

00:36:15   yeah it for us the comic reader it makes [TS]

00:36:18   the the anti-mutant hysteria and the [TS]

00:36:22   riding and all that stuff seemed [TS]

00:36:23   absolutely nonsensical and I think [TS]

00:36:26   that's I think that's part of the point [TS]

00:36:27   a story the characters look exactly the [TS]

00:36:30   same unless you get the until they're [TS]

00:36:33   bathed in the light and all that other [TS]

00:36:35   was your backstory tell you did you were [TS]

00:36:37   bitten by something with their array of [TS]

00:36:39   some sort or were you just born this way [TS]

00:36:41   if you're born this way we hate you if [TS]

00:36:44   it was a ray you're fine it's fine but [TS]

00:36:46   then I think that Marvel's did a pretty [TS]

00:36:48   good job of under of explaining why [TS]

00:36:51   people are feeling that way with her gut [TS]

00:36:53   reaction because if it's a genetic [TS]

00:36:55   change those mere be clearly the one [TS]

00:36:57   yeah they're going to be taking over the [TS]

00:36:59   world whereas if it's just a good old [TS]

00:37:01   you know he was being got some some [TS]

00:37:04   superpowers they're going to protect [TS]

00:37:05   other human beings with there's still [TS]

00:37:07   one of us in an amazingly gutsy thing [TS]

00:37:10   that music does in this story is he has [TS]

00:37:14   phil Sheldon pick up a brick and hit [TS]

00:37:17   Iceman and has with Elijah he is he is [TS]

00:37:20   part of his part of the right i think [TS]

00:37:23   that scene happens and x-men like one or [TS]

00:37:25   2i might be imagining that but I think [TS]

00:37:28   he's done like a flash man where he is [TS]

00:37:30   inserted his character into a [TS]

00:37:32   pre-existing seen i'm pretty sure that [TS]

00:37:34   is the case the memory is fuzzy but that [TS]

00:37:37   sounds right and she and feel shame for [TS]

00:37:39   it [TS]

00:37:40   Sheldon is no saint in this in this [TS]

00:37:43   story not like not like Norman McCay [TS]

00:37:45   Shelton is literally every man he's got [TS]

00:37:48   his good parts bigotries Sheldon has to [TS]

00:37:51   have to make peace with the fact that he [TS]

00:37:54   was a big it out of fear at some point [TS]

00:37:55   yeah yeah I i do enjoy a lot the fact [TS]

00:37:59   that they find a the mutant girl and [TS]

00:38:03   they take her in and then the fact that [TS]

00:38:04   she then runs off that was hard and [TS]

00:38:07   there's no and there's no real [TS]

00:38:08   resolution to that she runs off [TS]

00:38:10   yeah she's not a famous character or [TS]

00:38:12   anything so you don't know what happened [TS]

00:38:14   it's actually called back to an [TS]

00:38:15   excellent story from the nineteen [TS]

00:38:17   sixties i believe and unfortunately i [TS]

00:38:21   can't remember if the story ends with [TS]

00:38:23   the child killed by a mob and the x-men [TS]

00:38:26   get to her too late or if they rescue [TS]

00:38:28   her in the nick of time but that child [TS]

00:38:31   that was in the basement is actually [TS]

00:38:32   meant to be a famous mutant type thing [TS]

00:38:35   and and obviously an analogue for the [TS]

00:38:37   civil rights movement at the same time [TS]

00:38:38   to where the question is what kind of [TS]

00:38:40   people persecuted child just because [TS]

00:38:42   they look different [TS]

00:38:43   Maggie mutant has a has a has a page on [TS]

00:38:47   has a wicked Marvel wikipedia Marvel [TS]

00:38:50   wiki page lyrics so apparently we did we [TS]

00:38:53   did she did she did have other adventure [TS]

00:38:56   after she left those buildings a the [TS]

00:38:58   basement the adventures of Maggie the [TS]

00:39:00   mighty mutant yeah i don't think coming [TS]

00:39:02   after secret wars 2015 now exactly uh [TS]

00:39:07   the the one thing that i read into this [TS]

00:39:09   story and I don't know how intentional [TS]

00:39:11   it was but I remember a lot of [TS]

00:39:14   commentary over the years about the than [TS]

00:39:19   day that Gwen Stacy died being a real [TS]

00:39:21   turning point for Marvel and Marvel [TS]

00:39:23   publishing and I see the I read this [TS]

00:39:27   story as a bit of a criticism of where [TS]

00:39:30   the comic-book storytelling has gone [TS]

00:39:33   since the time of the marvels Gwen Stacy [TS]

00:39:37   dies that breaks Phil shelled and and [TS]

00:39:40   he's through he's through with Marvel's [TS]

00:39:42   and through that and then this wonderful [TS]

00:39:44   last page where he where he encounters a [TS]

00:39:47   nice normal ordinary boy Danny catch the [TS]

00:39:51   second heroes right [TS]

00:39:53   who is one of the most aggressively [TS]

00:39:56   nineties aggressively effed up [TS]

00:39:58   commercial and if you take our pictures [TS]

00:40:03   with young mr. catch here a nice normal [TS]

00:40:04   ordinary boy that's actually pretty darn [TS]

00:40:07   cutting yeah no that's nice but I look [TS]

00:40:11   it up I was like I bet that kid ended up [TS]

00:40:14   being something horrible i looked like [TS]

00:40:16   that okay yeah i'm a big fan of the [TS]

00:40:20   garage of meaningless cameos yes my [TS]

00:40:23   favorite to our bill lumpkin who's [TS]

00:40:25   laying around willy lumpkin the mailman [TS]

00:40:28   and ask for yeah he's great he's dating [TS]

00:40:30   Phil's girl when phil has could like [TS]

00:40:33   reluctance to marry in a world with [TS]

00:40:35   Marvel's and so I guess you like it [TS]

00:40:37   going to waggle this year's I wonder [TS]

00:40:39   stupid Willie lumpkin I just love that [TS]

00:40:42   they went to the trouble of calling that [TS]

00:40:44   guy out and also for some reason Popeye [TS]

00:40:46   is in this really yes vision an issue 11 [TS]

00:40:50   of the characters that is just being [TS]

00:40:53   interviewed is clearly pie is not a [TS]

00:40:56   Squinkie I and a corncob pipe nice [TS]

00:41:00   there are there a couple of follow-up [TS]

00:41:02   pieces that I i I'll of mentioning this [TS]

00:41:06   kind of stuff [TS]

00:41:07   partly especially in this case because [TS]

00:41:09   one of them is is kind of a well it's a [TS]

00:41:14   warren ellis book and I love everything [TS]

00:41:16   warren ellis does everything he destroys [TS]

00:41:18   and in a few years later I actually [TS]

00:41:22   might have been the next year [TS]

00:41:24   Warren Ellis did a book called ruins was [TS]

00:41:27   a to issue thing that was basically a [TS]

00:41:33   parody of Marvel's Phil Sheldon's back [TS]

00:41:35   once again and but everything is going [TS]

00:41:40   terribly wrong like it the the first [TS]

00:41:42   issue has Captain America Iron Man [TS]

00:41:44   spider-man and the Hulk and like all the [TS]

00:41:45   heroes laying all a Kimbo on the ground [TS]

00:41:49   you know it beating the crap but it's [TS]

00:41:53   basically Marvel's but totally dystopian [TS]

00:41:55   and and i love it its it's kind of [TS]

00:41:58   insane and I feel like nobody remembers [TS]

00:42:00   that it exists of the Amazon reviews are [TS]

00:42:02   merciless oh it's because people love [TS]

00:42:05   Marvel so much ruins just ruins it for [TS]

00:42:11   some people and now they did they did a [TS]

00:42:15   proper quote-unquote sequel featuring [TS]

00:42:17   the art of uh a painter style artist [TS]

00:42:20   that i'm a big fan of from books that he [TS]

00:42:24   worked on that I'm sure that if i look [TS]

00:42:25   back on them now they're probably was [TS]

00:42:27   not much substance in there at all but [TS]

00:42:30   Jay anacleto did Marvel's i have the [TS]

00:42:32   camera again written by Kurt music and [TS]

00:42:36   again Phil Sheldon is back with a [TS]

00:42:38   vengeance and so care about Phil Sheldon [TS]

00:42:43   I don't decide I look I think it's great [TS]

00:42:46   that there's an every man who frames the [TS]

00:42:48   story because it does come when you get [TS]

00:42:50   to find out what happened Aggie know I [TS]

00:42:53   care more about fulfillment i do about [TS]

00:42:55   what's his name who's not even a [TS]

00:42:56   character in kingdom come [TS]

00:42:58   uh-huh mhm I want to take a moment for [TS]

00:43:00   an elseworlds tail imagine a world a [TS]

00:43:03   dark world full of spam viruses bounced [TS]

00:43:07   email this is the world of kingdom come [TS]

00:43:11   oh and also our world let's also imagine [TS]

00:43:14   a world without spam viruses or bounced [TS]

00:43:17   email this is the dream of Phil Shelton [TS]

00:43:20   in Marvel's maybe but if he is dreaming [TS]

00:43:24   that he's dreaming about mail route who [TS]

00:43:25   is sponsoring this episode of the [TS]

00:43:27   uncomfortable mail route stops that evil [TS]

00:43:31   stuff the spam viruses and bounced email [TS]

00:43:33   from reaching your inbox indeed from [TS]

00:43:35   reaching your mail server at all mail [TS]

00:43:37   route lives in the cloud you sign up [TS]

00:43:40   change your MX records for your domain [TS]

00:43:41   two-point mail route and then all the [TS]

00:43:43   inbound mail for your domain comes to [TS]

00:43:46   mail route servers mail route service [TS]

00:43:47   process it make sure that it's not spam [TS]

00:43:50   or viruses or bounced email pulls all [TS]

00:43:53   that stuff out and then delivers only [TS]

00:43:55   the legitimate email that you want and [TS]

00:43:57   need to receive to your mail server and [TS]

00:43:59   then into your inbox traffic and load on [TS]

00:44:02   your mail server goes down the junk [TS]

00:44:04   never reaches you [TS]

00:44:05   you don't have to maintain the [TS]

00:44:06   hardware/software all happens up in the [TS]

00:44:08   cloud mail routes servers very easy to [TS]

00:44:10   set up super reliable is trusted by [TS]

00:44:12   large organizations like universities [TS]

00:44:14   and corporations I find as a regular old [TS]

00:44:17   desktop user from the interface to be [TS]

00:44:18   super easy [TS]

00:44:19   I i really enjoy using it i like [TS]

00:44:22   checking on what spam I didn't get [TS]

00:44:23   that's actually kind of a blast and if [TS]

00:44:26   you're an email administrator or an IT [TS]

00:44:28   professional they built all the tools [TS]

00:44:29   with your in mind they've got an API for [TS]

00:44:31   easy account management their support [TS]

00:44:33   for ldap Active Directory TLS male [TS]

00:44:35   bagging outbound relay everything you'd [TS]

00:44:38   want from the people handling your mail [TS]

00:44:39   you can start a risk-free trial without [TS]

00:44:41   any credit card necessary it's simple [TS]

00:44:43   and effective is no reason not to try it [TS]

00:44:45   every listen to the incomparable can [TS]

00:44:47   receive ten percent off of mail route [TS]

00:44:48   for the lifetime of the account go to [TS]

00:44:50   mail route dot net / smell right now to [TS]

00:44:55   sign up and thank you so much to mail [TS]

00:44:56   route for sponsoring the uncomfortable [TS]

00:44:59   alright let's let's move on talking [TS]

00:45:00   about kingdom come I am I i will put it [TS]

00:45:03   out there i am somebody who is vaguely [TS]

00:45:05   aware of DC mythology and read some DC [TS]

00:45:08   comics but I was always much more of a [TS]

00:45:09   Marvel guy and so coming up on kingdom [TS]

00:45:13   come as i did I thought well this is [TS]

00:45:15   this looks cool you know thumbing [TS]

00:45:17   through it at Barnes & Noble or whatever [TS]

00:45:18   and i bought it and I realized as i read [TS]

00:45:22   that there were so many layers of [TS]

00:45:24   reference to characters that I knew [TS]

00:45:26   nothing about but I knew the basics [TS]

00:45:28   enough sort of like what erica was [TS]

00:45:30   saying about about marbles I knew enough [TS]

00:45:32   about Superman Batman Wonder Woman and [TS]

00:45:35   Green Lantern the flash and things like [TS]

00:45:37   that captain marvel that I could that I [TS]

00:45:38   could get it [TS]

00:45:39   what I really loved about it and this is [TS]

00:45:41   this kingdom come has much more of a [TS]

00:45:43   story Kingdom Come is the story of a [TS]

00:45:45   future it's it's the I think it's the [TS]

00:45:49   early 21st century whoo [TS]

00:45:52   we're superheroes anybody the old-school [TS]

00:45:55   superheroes behind for a while and there [TS]

00:45:58   are new school superheroes like from the [TS]

00:46:00   nineties who have emerged in their awful [TS]

00:46:02   we know that was here at 19 terrible [TS]

00:46:04   you're going to do something [TS]

00:46:06   just use your ears everywhere to their [TS]

00:46:09   awful and so the world is coming on to [TS]

00:46:11   hell and likewise we are seeing that you [TS]

00:46:13   know it's not a great place for regular [TS]

00:46:14   humans it's really more the superhumans [TS]

00:46:16   are just kind of flying around fighting [TS]

00:46:17   each other for fun [TS]

00:46:18   so there's that whole kind of meta level [TS]

00:46:20   and then and then one woman goes and has [TS]

00:46:22   a talk with Superman and says you know [TS]

00:46:24   this is crap we need to deal with it bad [TS]

00:46:26   things have happened they blew up you [TS]

00:46:28   know nuclear you know they they split [TS]

00:46:30   captain atom into and he made a nuclear [TS]

00:46:33   explosion and pointed and poisoned the [TS]

00:46:35   Midwest the US and it's very bad you [TS]

00:46:37   need to do something about it and so [TS]

00:46:38   there's that this is a this book with a [TS]

00:46:40   story but what is fascinating about this [TS]

00:46:42   is as DC calls in elseworld it's like [TS]

00:46:44   not in continuity it's a it's a future [TS]

00:46:47   time and and these characters are these [TS]

00:46:50   iconic characters are allowed to be [TS]

00:46:51   iconic and and and there are [TS]

00:46:55   consequences and and you can tell abroad [TS]

00:46:57   story within this a broad this is like a [TS]

00:47:00   but we'll get to that it was a lot of [TS]

00:47:02   story here love story that's just [TS]

00:47:04   summarized because there's too much [TS]

00:47:05   story to actually tell but you know and [TS]

00:47:08   there's it from page one there is a [TS]

00:47:10   whole biblical overlay of the you know [TS]

00:47:13   the end times and revelation Kingdom [TS]

00:47:16   Come is the name of the thing and it you [TS]

00:47:18   know a clash with the super humans and [TS]

00:47:21   the the super humans and the [TS]

00:47:25   supervillains essentially and then the [TS]

00:47:29   humans who are also not that great [TS]

00:47:31   it's a fascinating piece of work in the [TS]

00:47:34   art is beautiful by alex ross all the [TS]

00:47:37   way if it does feel different in and [TS]

00:47:38   more rough than the lavish stuff that's [TS]

00:47:43   in Marvel's and I felt like if that was [TS]

00:47:46   the if if Marbles was the nostalgic [TS]

00:47:49   family family album of pictures then [TS]

00:47:53   this was sort of like a bunch of news [TS]

00:47:55   cutting slept together or newsreels or [TS]

00:47:58   something [TS]

00:47:59   I what I find interesting about kingdom [TS]

00:48:01   comes it's basically a really its you [TS]

00:48:03   mentioned there's them the framing [TS]

00:48:05   devices that you have a minister who's [TS]

00:48:07   asked to run around the universe with [TS]

00:48:08   the specter yes and help the specter sit [TS]

00:48:10   in judgment but what this really is is a [TS]

00:48:14   family AKA thumbnail version of the [TS]

00:48:16   story might well be [TS]

00:48:18   Jesus akc been having of Superman [TS]

00:48:21   ya know because it's because it's [TS]

00:48:22   literally like one of the first times [TS]

00:48:23   you see Jesus there's there's a panel [TS]

00:48:25   where Superman's got long hair and you [TS]

00:48:27   know it's holding your cross beam on his [TS]

00:48:28   shoulders and the Christian imagery ya [TS]

00:48:30   could not be more blatant if you had [TS]

00:48:32   like a group of hippies singing [TS]

00:48:33   preparing the way of water underneath [TS]

00:48:35   him the gist of that the gist of the [TS]

00:48:37   story is is will Jesus / Superman step [TS]

00:48:41   up and do what is necessary with the the [TS]

00:48:44   power she has been given and then at the [TS]

00:48:46   very end there's kind of a [TS]

00:48:47   bait-and-switch when no surprise [TS]

00:48:48   surprise Captain Marvel is your [TS]

00:48:50   sacrificial lamb all along and Superman [TS]

00:48:52   is is in Superman like there's a heavy [TS]

00:48:54   emphasis on the man portion of Superman [TS]

00:48:56   by the end of the by the end of the [TS]

00:48:59   kingdom come [TS]

00:49:00   and the information there is that he's [TS]

00:49:03   finally come to terms with the man part [TS]

00:49:05   of Superman and that's what's going to [TS]

00:49:06   make it more effective super super being [TS]

00:49:09   by the end of it whereas diana is pretty [TS]

00:49:12   much just unrepentantly I'm worshiped [TS]

00:49:14   from beginning to end of the story [TS]

00:49:16   no there's not a whole lot of character [TS]

00:49:17   development for anyone other than anyone [TS]

00:49:19   other than Superman this is basically [TS]

00:49:20   the whole book is about the battle for [TS]

00:49:22   Superman soul where he had effectively [TS]

00:49:24   dropped out of public life ten years [TS]

00:49:25   earlier when he was horrified by people [TS]

00:49:27   like yeah it's okay to kill super [TS]

00:49:28   villains and it didn't want Lois Lane [TS]

00:49:31   was killed by the Joker yeah but he then [TS]

00:49:34   you're gone yeah megog my god kills the [TS]

00:49:37   Joker and Superman like that's not how [TS]

00:49:38   it's supposed to work and he drops out [TS]

00:49:40   of public life on the public was like [TS]

00:49:41   why can't we kill super villains already [TS]

00:49:43   if the nineties if ya stream yeah yeah [TS]

00:49:47   let's get this book this book feels like [TS]

00:49:48   a reaction to the content the comics of [TS]

00:49:51   the nineteen nineties and that it'sit's [TS]

00:49:53   the struggle for the soul of Superman [TS]

00:49:54   can be seen as metaphorical that way i [TS]

00:49:56   just find the religious imagery through [TS]

00:49:58   this whole thing incredibly striking [TS]

00:49:59   because it suggests that there's [TS]

00:50:01   different ways to worship these these [TS]

00:50:02   people and then the question is how did [TS]

00:50:04   the gods respond to the worship that is [TS]

00:50:06   they do and they've the guy named Magog [TS]

00:50:09   like that yeah Bible you're gonna be [TS]

00:50:12   good right yeah all of this weather the [TS]

00:50:15   gods are actually do it or whether they [TS]

00:50:17   should be God's in the first place I [TS]

00:50:19   mean it is this is this is angry god [TS]

00:50:23   stuff this is not warm and fuzzy prayers [TS]

00:50:26   for healing kinds of stuff then [TS]

00:50:28   the they don't become worthy of normal [TS]

00:50:33   humans trust until the end of kingdom [TS]

00:50:35   come when they when they take their [TS]

00:50:38   masks off and stop wearing the uniform [TS]

00:50:40   you could argue that the story too is [TS]

00:50:43   that the old gods the the you know the [TS]

00:50:45   the superheroes that we know [TS]

00:50:48   left left the world right to to their [TS]

00:50:51   own to its own devices and now we're [TS]

00:50:54   having that debate of while things got [TS]

00:50:55   really bad when we laughed doing later [TS]

00:50:57   do we reengage here do we re-enter and [TS]

00:51:00   they do and they say we're taking over [TS]

00:51:02   and that does not go well write like all [TS]

00:51:05   the all the villains are upset the UN is [TS]

00:51:07   upset and even the humans who have been [TS]

00:51:11   heroes are upset and that's a [TS]

00:51:12   fascinating split the split between [TS]

00:51:15   batman bruce wayne has got it is the [TS]

00:51:19   heroes just booked more you really like [TS]

00:51:21   and he's wonderful but but he's human [TS]

00:51:23   and and he's got sort of the human [TS]

00:51:25   heroes with him and then there are the [TS]

00:51:27   godlike heroes and they are they are on [TS]

00:51:29   opposite sides ish for a long time which [TS]

00:51:32   is fascinating [TS]

00:51:33   damn i do also enjoy how commendable you [TS]

00:51:35   know what this is like a landowner [TS]

00:51:37   problem i got grab you at seventy [TS]

00:51:39   percent of the of their surface to deal [TS]

00:51:41   with some away and you know you'll be [TS]

00:51:44   able to jail here i think it's [TS]

00:51:47   interesting that actually Batman doesn't [TS]

00:51:49   take as bigger role as i keep kept [TS]

00:51:52   expecting him to like a lot of big d [TS]

00:51:55   stories boil down to Superman arguing [TS]

00:51:58   with Batman person man vs Batman don't [TS]

00:52:01   justice or but in this one it's really [TS]

00:52:03   more Superman arguing with Wonder Woman [TS]

00:52:05   uh-huh and then Batman happening to come [TS]

00:52:08   along at the end and solve everything [TS]

00:52:10   the deus ex Batna yeah wonder woman is [TS]

00:52:13   so interesting [TS]

00:52:14   this version of that carries so [TS]

00:52:15   interesting in this she doesn't let him [TS]

00:52:18   know that she's essentially been kicked [TS]

00:52:20   out of her llanera yeah uh and stripped [TS]

00:52:24   of all of her you know royalty and [TS]

00:52:26   things like that in it you know she [TS]

00:52:28   becomes up later and she's got the [TS]

00:52:31   god-kind of godlike attitude and she is [TS]

00:52:33   also more like those other heroes and [TS]

00:52:38   that she's like we've got to do whatever [TS]

00:52:39   we can to win this whereas Superman is [TS]

00:52:41   very much like [TS]

00:52:42   almost Hamlet like in his in decisions [TS]

00:52:45   about well I mean you know what I wanted [TS]

00:52:47   to be good but you know I don't want to [TS]

00:52:49   do anything bad to make it good and [TS]

00:52:51   she's like let's just kill those guys [TS]

00:52:53   and it's fascinating that the push and [TS]

00:52:55   pull between those two characters to as [TS]

00:52:57   they're also obviously attracted to each [TS]

00:52:58   other [TS]

00:52:59   yeah yeah it's it's a more about the [TS]

00:53:01   death of at first they perceive the [TS]

00:53:04   problem Superman Wonder Woman perceive [TS]

00:53:06   the problem as it's this new generation [TS]

00:53:07   of kids who don't know morality you know [TS]

00:53:10   there is there is right and there is [TS]

00:53:12   wrong and it's easy to tell the [TS]

00:53:14   difference and then we discover [TS]

00:53:16   throughout the story that the problem is [TS]

00:53:18   not these kids it the problem is your [TS]

00:53:21   approach to the solution it is superman [TS]

00:53:24   and wonder woman are taking a Mike takes [TS]

00:53:26   right up approach this thing and you get [TS]

00:53:30   into even bigger balls than the ones [TS]

00:53:33   that they thought they were solving if I [TS]

00:53:35   can if I can interject with that was [TS]

00:53:36   something that I feel location [TS]

00:53:37   preference purpose with the words focus [TS]

00:53:39   on become I don't Jason I just a little [TS]

00:53:44   bit of origin story of Kingdom Come [TS]

00:53:46   itself because i think it's directly [TS]

00:53:48   relevant to this you know the the the [TS]

00:53:51   the old gods making way for the new gods [TS]

00:53:54   and realizing the new gods are not so [TS]

00:53:56   great and going well we should come back [TS]

00:53:58   and clean this stuff up this story was [TS]

00:54:01   was originally pitched as an outline by [TS]

00:54:04   alex ross while he was working on [TS]

00:54:06   Marvel's he wanted to do something like [TS]

00:54:08   this with DC but he didn't know DC [TS]

00:54:10   continuity as well he pitched it to [TS]

00:54:12   let's see who is it too is it was it [TS]

00:54:16   James Robinson famous for for his [TS]

00:54:18   legendary run on starman along with a [TS]

00:54:21   bunch of other stuff and he he pitched [TS]

00:54:24   this thing that was similar in scope and [TS]

00:54:26   theoretical you know dramatic [TS]

00:54:29   implications to something like watchman [TS]

00:54:32   or an alum or project that got pitched [TS]

00:54:35   years before called twilight of the [TS]

00:54:37   superheroes that never turned into [TS]

00:54:39   anything but that has been its its [TS]

00:54:41   corpse has been well plundered by [TS]

00:54:44   especially kingdom come from which it [TS]

00:54:47   took some very very direct [TS]

00:54:49   inspiration but loads of other things [TS]

00:54:52   that would follow in DC history where [TS]

00:54:55   the general concept was was this you [TS]

00:54:59   know what what happens you know when [TS]

00:55:01   when some big catastrophic thing like [TS]

00:55:05   this is going to happen and it was it [TS]

00:55:09   was something that just kind of [TS]

00:55:10   dissolved in terms of of Moore's take on [TS]

00:55:12   it but but bits of it especially [TS]

00:55:14   especially the notion of dealing with [TS]

00:55:18   the conflict between the older and [TS]

00:55:20   younger generations of superheroes and [TS]

00:55:22   how to deal with super villains and [TS]

00:55:24   putting some some This Is It this is the [TS]

00:55:28   last one this is the big epic final [TS]

00:55:30   ragnarok level event where everything [TS]

00:55:34   goes to hell and they eventually ended [TS]

00:55:38   up hearing with Mark way because mark [TS]

00:55:39   waid as i mentioned earlier had these [TS]

00:55:42   note card boxes full of full of files on [TS]

00:55:45   all of these comic book characters as a [TS]

00:55:47   kid and knows all of this stuff [TS]

00:55:49   encyclopedia CLE and if you look at this [TS]

00:55:54   and then you look at Earth x which ross [TS]

00:55:56   did with Marvel few years later with [TS]

00:55:59   with jim courier you see the difference [TS]

00:56:01   when he's paired with somebody like Mark [TS]

00:56:04   Waid and when he's given more free rein [TS]

00:56:06   to just kind of go nuts and that one [TS]

00:56:08   kind of falls falls apart of the ends [TS]

00:56:11   about what I like so much about this is [TS]

00:56:14   yes there's loads of continuity porn all [TS]

00:56:16   over it but it ties together really [TS]

00:56:19   nicely even if like me still years later [TS]

00:56:22   you're realizing go scot-free is a guy [TS]

00:56:24   called mister miracle and he's a thing [TS]

00:56:26   is a character [TS]

00:56:27   ok what's he all about it here and there [TS]

00:56:32   you go see [TS]

00:56:33   clever clever comic-book names but it's [TS]

00:56:36   a that the the the core conceit of this [TS]

00:56:40   potentially being the big final story [TS]

00:56:43   for all of these characters is something [TS]

00:56:45   that when when I discovered it where I [TS]

00:56:47   just kind of grabbed DC stuff here and [TS]

00:56:50   there it was it was phenomenal i didn't [TS]

00:56:52   know anything about then Captain Marvel [TS]

00:56:54   now called shazam I'd never seen him [TS]

00:56:57   that didn't know that existed and he [TS]

00:57:00   played a major role in this [TS]

00:57:02   thing and then I decided well maybe I [TS]

00:57:04   should I should look into who this [TS]

00:57:05   character is he traveled in a Winnebago [TS]

00:57:07   and the seventies voices you may have [TS]

00:57:09   missed that but you watch the kids TV in [TS]

00:57:12   the in the seventh member he traveled [TS]

00:57:14   with his friend mentor in a Winnebago it [TS]

00:57:18   is a mark waid certainly is a extremely [TS]

00:57:23   interested in thinking about the idea of [TS]

00:57:28   Superman and what it what life Marvel [TS]

00:57:33   Comics doesn't have Superman they don't [TS]

00:57:34   have a really uh Superman india they [TS]

00:57:37   have some characters were kinda like [TS]

00:57:38   that now but not not one of their their [TS]

00:57:41   lead characters is not the all-powerful [TS]

00:57:42   kind of being that Superman can be and [TS]

00:57:46   Mark weight is definitely fascinated by [TS]

00:57:48   him and you see the kingdom come this is [TS]

00:57:49   essentially like Lisa said the story of [TS]

00:57:52   what Superman going to do and what [TS]

00:57:53   decision that mean essentially making [TS]

00:57:55   this decision like do we all die or do [TS]

00:57:57   we live and the world is ruined and [TS]

00:58:00   there's a third option which is the [TS]

00:58:02   captain marvel blows up the thing and [TS]

00:58:04   many of them died but not all of them [TS]

00:58:05   and that's that somehow it gets resolved [TS]

00:58:07   in the end it but everybody loses that's [TS]

00:58:10   how yes well I mean so Marcus wrote [TS]

00:58:12   irredeemable which i recommend to people [TS]

00:58:14   i think it's a really interesting comic [TS]

00:58:16   and it lasted for 37 issues and it tells [TS]

00:58:19   the whole story but irredeemable is [TS]

00:58:21   essentially mark waid saying what if [TS]

00:58:24   Superman went bad one day and it's it's [TS]

00:58:27   great but it is very clear that this is [TS]

00:58:29   a subject that is near and dear to mark [TS]

00:58:32   waid heart and he likes to he likes to [TS]

00:58:34   talk about one of the great attractions [TS]

00:58:35   of Kingdom Come is that because it's set [TS]

00:58:37   outside of continuity can tell a story [TS]

00:58:39   and it can make changes in these [TS]

00:58:40   characters and they can have development [TS]

00:58:42   in age and this is sort of old grumpy [TS]

00:58:44   Batman instead of you know younger [TS]

00:58:46   grumpy Batman that we usually see and it [TS]

00:58:48   said that's all that's all kinda [TS]

00:58:49   fascinating one of course seven years [TS]

00:58:51   later wait got a chance in continuity to [TS]

00:58:53   redefine Superman with the well until [TS]

00:58:56   they wiped away all of continuity the [TS]

00:58:58   the really great canonical modern [TS]

00:59:01   retelling of the Superman myth with with [TS]

00:59:05   birth right birth on which they lifted [TS]

00:59:07   from like crazy for that man of steel [TS]

00:59:08   movie that the [TS]

00:59:10   that being on an episode of the [TS]

00:59:11   incomparable taught me i really did hate [TS]

00:59:13   that one [TS]

00:59:16   hiren I remembered you know everything [TS]

00:59:18   when I got a tweet from somebody so I [TS]

00:59:19   finally some and steel wow you guys are [TS]

00:59:21   right it's terrible my getaway but thank [TS]

00:59:25   you for the reinforcement years later I [TS]

00:59:27   was so scarred by it that intervention [TS]

00:59:29   had to take place for me to realize my [TS]

00:59:31   true feelings about it that I was trying [TS]

00:59:32   to push for the mac want to push away [TS]

00:59:34   one of the inciting moments in still in [TS]

00:59:36   Marvel's Civil War comic event is a [TS]

00:59:39   group of superheroes hat making a [TS]

00:59:41   mistake that leads to a large loss of [TS]

00:59:44   innocent life [TS]

00:59:45   one might say that marquel and American [TS]

00:59:48   alarm might have actually might have [TS]

00:59:49   read this it brings that to mind when i [TS]

00:59:52   read kingdom come this time I was like [TS]

00:59:54   oh you know that's kind of how the whole [TS]

00:59:56   civil war thing start [TS]

00:59:58   that's that's the 1i Reds [TS]

00:59:58   that's that's the 1i Reds [TS]

01:00:00   the war for the first time like wait a [TS]

01:00:01   minute yeah really familiar interesting [TS]

01:00:04   but if you know the idea that [TS]

01:00:05   superheroes when left to their own [TS]

01:00:07   devices might make some super mistakes [TS]

01:00:10   and the kill a bunch of innocent people [TS]

01:00:11   is it's an interesting thing to explore [TS]

01:00:13   i wanted to mention the ending which my [TS]

01:00:16   understanding is is not in the car [TS]

01:00:18   original comics and only in the [TS]

01:00:19   collection which is the one year leaving [TS]

01:00:21   the one year later and along where [TS]

01:00:23   they're in plant on the planet hollywood [TS]

01:00:25   of superhero god I love that besides [TS]

01:00:28   allah i love the purpose of the [TS]

01:00:29   restaurant and menu cracks me up to but [TS]

01:00:32   today's special is the power girl [TS]

01:00:33   chicken sandwich [TS]

01:00:35   yeah it's like that is bad if I could [TS]

01:00:39   interject for just a second that i read [TS]

01:00:42   this because I couldn't find my uh my i [TS]

01:00:45   have the original press teach comics and [TS]

01:00:47   but I couldn't find them in time so i [TS]

01:00:49   got this off of comiXology and included [TS]

01:00:52   with issue for is the one year later [TS]

01:00:54   things so i'm not sure it i think it may [TS]

01:00:57   have been part of the original I don't [TS]

01:01:00   think I don't think I i think it was [TS]

01:01:02   included in reprints & and the digital [TS]

01:01:04   versions that have existed go off of the [TS]

01:01:06   reference it's got my favorite thing in [TS]

01:01:08   it which is the spot on drink choices [TS]

01:01:11   for Superman Batman Wonder Woman water [TS]

01:01:14   and coffee [TS]

01:01:16   it's like right my interview I gotta [TS]

01:01:18   keep your comments so i gotta say the [TS]

01:01:20   epilogue is my favorite thing in the [TS]

01:01:22   whole comic i love it i love everything [TS]

01:01:24   about i love the fact that there's days [TS]

01:01:25   that there are superheroes eating at the [TS]

01:01:27   superhero themed restaurant because one [TS]

01:01:29   woman really just wants to see how crazy [TS]

01:01:31   this place would be and then people [TS]

01:01:32   dressed in all the costumes of all the [TS]

01:01:34   superheroes and ended things on the menu [TS]

01:01:36   are hilarious and that man just wants a [TS]

01:01:38   steak well-done and he doesn't care what [TS]

01:01:41   the theme is he just wants to steak [TS]

01:01:42   well-done it comes medium and Superman [TS]

01:01:44   makes it will then was he yes he like [TS]

01:01:47   moves his dad glasses if you just use [TS]

01:01:49   eyes glared for a moment and it's [TS]

01:01:51   delightful i love it so much I mean like [TS]

01:01:54   more than the mean the story is [TS]

01:01:56   interesting and you know operatic and [TS]

01:01:59   has religious metaphors forever and all [TS]

01:02:02   of that and yet you know what I kind of [TS]

01:02:04   really like the idea of back [TS]

01:02:05   man superman and wonder woman who are [TS]

01:02:08   now Superman Wonder Woman having a baby [TS]

01:02:10   and they ask Batman to be the to be the [TS]

01:02:12   Godfather i kinda that 12 pages or [TS]

01:02:15   whatever it is is kind of my favorite [TS]

01:02:17   thing just like them having lunch [TS]

01:02:19   it's my favorite thing in the book which [TS]

01:02:21   is crazy the one little touch that I [TS]

01:02:23   loved the most was Superman drinking out [TS]

01:02:24   of issues and glass [TS]

01:02:26   oh yeah well i know you have time either [TS]

01:02:28   gasoline Lantern Lantern not killed me [TS]

01:02:30   to my only complaint is that i feel that [TS]

01:02:32   Batman has a high tolerance for things [TS]

01:02:34   with stupid names it so we should not [TS]

01:02:37   get upset at the various times i'm sorry [TS]

01:02:41   are you gonna go back to your bat [TS]

01:02:43   computer and complain that we have a [TS]

01:02:45   color steak something silly i really [TS]

01:02:47   like the middle click mozzarella sticks [TS]

01:02:50   you know maybe Batman has gotten a [TS]

01:02:51   little crusty in his old engine you know [TS]

01:02:53   he's okay with the stuff that he named [TS]

01:02:56   when he was a young crazy to quit the [TS]

01:02:58   man has an exoskeleton now he's cranky [TS]

01:03:00   ok the process of turning into sam neill [TS]

01:03:03   has made him bitter [TS]

01:03:05   yep with the the stuff that the stuff [TS]

01:03:08   that's easy to pick up on whether you're [TS]

01:03:10   a continuity porn you know freaker not [TS]

01:03:12   that's it so dirty [TS]

01:03:15   oh my god well I see I the the thing [TS]

01:03:18   that rereading this there was loads of [TS]

01:03:19   stuff that i picked up on that I [TS]

01:03:20   definitely didn't get 1996 and I'm i'm [TS]

01:03:24   curious my assumption is compared to [TS]

01:03:27   Marvel's there's a lot more stuff that [TS]

01:03:30   they may just come off like the invented [TS]

01:03:32   children that nobody had ever seen [TS]

01:03:34   before somebody like Erica I it was was [TS]

01:03:40   this brain melting you know I I again I [TS]

01:03:45   knew enough about the the biggies here [TS]

01:03:48   that you don't Superman Batman Wonder [TS]

01:03:49   Woman like that was no problem for me I [TS]

01:03:53   honestly reading this got the impression [TS]

01:03:55   than an awful lot if not all of the next [TS]

01:03:58   generation of superheroes were made up [TS]

01:04:01   for this so i don't know if they were [TS]

01:04:03   trying to make it look like that but [TS]

01:04:05   that was that was very much the way that [TS]

01:04:06   it came off to me none of them seem [TS]

01:04:09   particularly consequential and I just [TS]

01:04:11   didn't get that sort of same like you [TS]

01:04:14   know in Marvel's when you see somebody [TS]

01:04:16   in the background I just felt like [TS]

01:04:19   this is somebody who is a part of the [TS]

01:04:20   tapestry of this era and I didn't feel [TS]

01:04:25   that way with kingdom come because I [TS]

01:04:26   mean it's a very different kind of story [TS]

01:04:27   but I I knew enough about the people who [TS]

01:04:31   are keeping the action moving to be able [TS]

01:04:34   to buy into the story and so to get [TS]

01:04:36   behind the characters and the anybody [TS]

01:04:39   who I wouldn't have known very well what [TS]

01:04:42   wasn't doing a whole lot in the story so [TS]

01:04:44   they were just kind of like background [TS]

01:04:46   characters and and they didn't it didn't [TS]

01:04:48   bother me very much to have them there [TS]

01:04:49   although i think the fact that there [TS]

01:04:51   were so many characters that were named [TS]

01:04:54   like that [TS]

01:04:55   in addition did sort of make it a little [TS]

01:04:57   bit just overwhelming with the numbers [TS]

01:05:00   there's a lot of them so i checked out [TS]

01:05:03   emotionally just a little bit because I [TS]

01:05:05   didn't feel like I I knew enough about [TS]

01:05:08   the the bad guys there wasn't anything [TS]

01:05:11   for me for Lex Luthor to to hang my [TS]

01:05:14   emotional hat on [TS]

01:05:16   that's interesting because alex ross at [TS]

01:05:19   the time I did this insanely detailed [TS]

01:05:22   Bible are you know about who all of [TS]

01:05:25   these characters are you know which one [TS]

01:05:28   of these characters is the daughter of [TS]

01:05:31   Dick Grayson and Starfire and things [TS]

01:05:33   like that and much of this never shows [TS]

01:05:36   up in the actual book kingdom come in [TS]

01:05:39   the actual story but I i did think when [TS]

01:05:42   i was reading this I just kept my eyes [TS]

01:05:45   on Superman Wonder Woman and Batman [TS]

01:05:48   yeah and the hordes of characters in the [TS]

01:05:50   background that had all of these [TS]

01:05:53   relations to the original DC characters [TS]

01:05:56   on of it was a strange kind of [TS]

01:05:57   continuity porn that I was able to [TS]

01:05:59   completely ignore because it was like [TS]

01:06:01   speculative comp continuity porn [TS]

01:06:04   it wasn't talking about the history of [TS]

01:06:06   the right [TS]

01:06:08   DC universe so much as where it could go [TS]

01:06:10   next and I think Erica actually mean [TS]

01:06:12   checking out is actually probably the [TS]

01:06:14   right way to approach all these [TS]

01:06:16   characters they're just cannon fodder [TS]

01:06:18   agree [TS]

01:06:19   close your eyes and think of England [TS]

01:06:20   Japanese cheesy cheesy cameos and cheesy [TS]

01:06:23   cameos have a tendency to annoy me so [TS]

01:06:25   it's just like okay then i can I talk [TS]

01:06:27   about the difference been reading these [TS]

01:06:29   in the nineteen nineties vs [TS]

01:06:30   yeah well and [TS]

01:06:32   because and I notice with Marvel's to is [TS]

01:06:34   the first time i saw Tony Stark in [TS]

01:06:36   Marvel's I had it and this was the first [TS]

01:06:38   time I red marbles and saw Tony Stark [TS]

01:06:40   it was a hundred percent it made perfect [TS]

01:06:41   sense and again I was like well of [TS]

01:06:45   course Tony Stark always looks like that [TS]

01:06:46   that's the derring-do that I remember [TS]

01:06:47   and then when I went back and reread [TS]

01:06:49   Marvel's in preparation for this podcast [TS]

01:06:51   there was a moment where there's kind of [TS]

01:06:53   a perceptual shift from like wait the [TS]

01:06:55   Black Widow doesn't look like that [TS]

01:06:56   because i have a little bit of scarlett [TS]

01:06:58   johansson back of my head now and it was [TS]

01:07:00   the same thing where and I I think [TS]

01:07:02   Ultimates sort of dropkick me down this [TS]

01:07:04   path because you know that they were the [TS]

01:07:06   ones who started by bait by using samuel [TS]

01:07:08   l jackson is as the ultimate nick fury [TS]

01:07:10   but when I red marbles this time out it [TS]

01:07:12   was a little strange to see this [TS]

01:07:14   character something oh no these are [TS]

01:07:16   these don't map to that the composites i [TS]

01:07:18   have in my head now because the [TS]

01:07:19   composites are informed by step from the [TS]

01:07:21   Audis and when I went back and reread [TS]

01:07:23   kingdom comfort for the umpteenth time I [TS]

01:07:27   actually didn't have that problem and I [TS]

01:07:28   think one of the reasons i didn't have [TS]

01:07:30   that problem is because the characters [TS]

01:07:31   who are being recycled through the [TS]

01:07:33   movies now are being recycled in one [TS]

01:07:35   generation but like when you have Batman [TS]

01:07:38   who is balding and in the end the bad [TS]

01:07:41   exoskeleton and like the green arrow has [TS]

01:07:43   lost all of his hair and put on some way [TS]

01:07:45   and it's pretty obvious that him in the [TS]

01:07:47   Black Canary have retired to boca and [TS]

01:07:49   and and olive and you know even Superman [TS]

01:07:51   is great the temples and looking a [TS]

01:07:52   little bit beefy there wasn't that [TS]

01:07:54   disconnect with weight now this is not [TS]

01:07:56   how they look in my head now that the [TS]

01:07:57   same way i had with Marvel's there's [TS]

01:07:59   there's because and i love the CW shows [TS]

01:08:02   as much as the next person but like [TS]

01:08:04   there's no way I'm confusing any of the [TS]

01:08:05   the characters therefore what I think [TS]

01:08:07   kingdom com that there's just there's a [TS]

01:08:09   sharper delineation whereas with marbles [TS]

01:08:12   there's a little bit of bleeding around [TS]

01:08:13   the edges and I thought that was kind of [TS]

01:08:14   interesting interesting take [TS]

01:08:16   did you notice the Tony Stark looks like [TS]

01:08:18   Timothy Dalton yes with my gosh yeah [TS]

01:08:21   Rockets here was around it i think it [TS]

01:08:23   might have helped that Marvel's is [TS]

01:08:25   allegedly portraying the way things were [TS]

01:08:27   so it's supposed to match your memory [TS]

01:08:30   but Kingdom Come is doing a future [TS]

01:08:32   version and a man like let's say you [TS]

01:08:35   love Christopher Reeve or rent and Ralph [TS]

01:08:37   there's somebody that maybe they look [TS]

01:08:38   like that when they get old you know yet [TS]

01:08:41   yeah probably not they did that manages [TS]

01:08:44   beautiful the the exoskeleton Batman is [TS]

01:08:47   an interesting historical footnote for [TS]

01:08:51   that period in DC because just a couple [TS]

01:08:54   years before this they had broken the [TS]

01:08:56   bat spine and so I guess they were they [TS]

01:08:59   were playing off of well I guess that's [TS]

01:09:02   how we explain what that man 20 years [TS]

01:09:04   from now it's like he's got some exosuit [TS]

01:09:06   thing going [TS]

01:09:08   yeah I like that or he just got better [TS]

01:09:09   for no reason yeah sure I i like that [TS]

01:09:13   Batman is human and he's great he's you [TS]

01:09:16   know he's old and falling apart and has [TS]

01:09:18   an exoskeleton because he you know [TS]

01:09:20   that's that's Batman he's gonna find a [TS]

01:09:23   way and I think I think that's a really [TS]

01:09:25   interesting bit of that character i just [TS]

01:09:28   love the green arrow family i love it so [TS]

01:09:30   much that he had diner is still together [TS]

01:09:31   and that their daughter has picked up [TS]

01:09:33   the mantle and they're like apparently [TS]

01:09:34   really cool with it that's one of my [TS]

01:09:36   favorite background bits of color [TS]

01:09:37   through the whole book i'm taking a [TS]

01:09:39   break not for a sponsor but tell you [TS]

01:09:41   about some other stuff that's available [TS]

01:09:43   on the uncomfortable network do you know [TS]

01:09:45   about unjustly maligned it is a pop [TS]

01:09:47   culture show about the sometimes strange [TS]

01:09:48   things that we all love that other [TS]

01:09:50   people don't [TS]

01:09:51   every episode features your host comics [TS]

01:09:54   and games writer anthony johnson talking [TS]

01:09:56   to a guest to explain why that thing [TS]

01:09:59   that you hate is actually really great [TS]

01:10:02   recent episodes include Glenn [TS]

01:10:04   fleischmann defending the animated [TS]

01:10:05   series Kim Possible al Kennedy defending [TS]

01:10:08   Doctor Who the TV movie Tron defended by [TS]

01:10:12   wilwheaton and of course stargate sg-1 [TS]

01:10:15   defended by me check it out [TS]

01:10:18   unjustly maligned it's at the [TS]

01:10:19   incomparable dot-com / UMP and while at [TS]

01:10:22   the incomparable also check out our TV [TS]

01:10:24   podcast currently recapping arrow the [TS]

01:10:27   flash daredevil and Game of Thrones [TS]

01:10:29   every episode we talked about it at the [TS]

01:10:32   TV podcast and now I return you to the [TS]

01:10:35   mother Zeppelin I i'm interested in in [TS]

01:10:39   overall overall reactions to i found a [TS]

01:10:43   picture of Timothy Dalton this tony [TS]

01:10:44   stark to its totally right i totally [TS]

01:10:46   called that one also there's a George [TS]

01:10:48   Avengers a separate HW bush appears in [TS]

01:10:51   one in the [TS]

01:10:52   use in the beginning of so you'd like a [TS]

01:10:53   reaction to you being so right about [TS]

01:10:55   yeah tell me about how great my reaction [TS]

01:10:57   was to the no I just kingdom come [TS]

01:11:01   so captain marvel that I want to mention [TS]

01:11:03   Captain Marvel such a tragic figure [TS]

01:11:05   that's terrible it's a fascinating way [TS]

01:11:08   that they use them in the billy batson [TS]

01:11:09   has sort of been brainwashed by the lex [TS]

01:11:12   luthor or and Captain Marvel ends up [TS]

01:11:14   being this character that is the is a [TS]

01:11:16   great he's on the he's off the board and [TS]

01:11:18   then he's on the board but he's a great [TS]

01:11:19   threat and then in the end he sort of [TS]

01:11:21   makes the supreme sacrifice whatever how [TS]

01:11:24   all of the super villains are scared to [TS]

01:11:26   death of him and integrate it turns out [TS]

01:11:28   to be it turns out that he's Billy [TS]

01:11:30   already got grown up so he looks like [TS]

01:11:32   Captain Marvel but he's not Captain [TS]

01:11:34   Marvel he's still Billy Batson and any [TS]

01:11:38   of the backstory here is the captain [TS]

01:11:39   marvel was a from a different comic book [TS]

01:11:41   publisher and they were bought by DC [TS]

01:11:42   comics and it's he sort of been [TS]

01:11:43   awkwardly overtime integrated as shazam [TS]

01:11:46   now because marvel comics and trademarks [TS]

01:11:48   and whatever he's sort of an awkwardly [TS]

01:11:51   integrated but is always felt like a [TS]

01:11:53   little bit of another place and what I [TS]

01:11:56   I'm also fascinated by the captain [TS]

01:11:58   marvel [TS]

01:11:58   who is that whose best days were really [TS]

01:12:01   a long time ago is an important mover in [TS]

01:12:05   a couple of amazing pieces of more [TS]

01:12:07   modern comic book art which is miracle [TS]

01:12:10   man and kingdom come [TS]

01:12:13   because miracle man is essentially the [TS]

01:12:14   english version of Captain Marvel [TS]

01:12:16   originally Marvel man with his name [TS]

01:12:19   changed by Alan Moore and uh and then [TS]

01:12:22   hit Marvel man merry Marvel man and he [TS]

01:12:25   says Kyoto original like that right but [TS]

01:12:27   yet you know it's just it's fascinating [TS]

01:12:28   to me and i like how is used here [TS]

01:12:30   because he's silent and scary and [TS]

01:12:32   menacing and then like broken and [TS]

01:12:34   terrifying because he's a minute you [TS]

01:12:37   know brainwashed by lex luthor it is a [TS]

01:12:40   it is a fascinating use of that [TS]

01:12:42   character who who is an outsider in the [TS]

01:12:44   DC Comics world in here that's what he [TS]

01:12:47   is he's an outsider and kind of a [TS]

01:12:48   monster but in the end shakes it off and [TS]

01:12:51   shows that he's a hero i just i think [TS]

01:12:53   it's a really interesting use of that [TS]

01:12:54   character that is just so tragic [TS]

01:12:57   yeah I love that Captain Marvel uses his [TS]

01:13:00   a magic lightning bolt which is one of [TS]

01:13:03   Superman's only weaknesses [TS]

01:13:05   just eat up saying Shazam and dodging [TS]

01:13:08   and lending which also happens in [TS]

01:13:10   Justice League Unlimited in the great [TS]

01:13:11   episode [TS]

01:13:13   you just stole that reference from me [TS]

01:13:15   sir is 20 / also i mean Marvel's marvels [TS]

01:13:19   is is not i mean there's a story there [TS]

01:13:22   but it's not a story like kingdom come [TS]

01:13:25   there's so much narrative and I i'm [TS]

01:13:27   curious what everybody thinks of all in [TS]

01:13:29   all of Kingdom common as a story my i'll [TS]

01:13:32   i'll tell you my feeling about it [TS]

01:13:34   reading it again after having not read [TS]

01:13:36   it for a little while is I there are [TS]

01:13:40   some rough moments where I feel like [TS]

01:13:42   essentially they're like okay there's [TS]

01:13:44   too much [TS]

01:13:44   we're just gonna list a whole bunch of [TS]

01:13:46   things that happen now and then we'll [TS]

01:13:48   get back to the interesting dialogue [TS]

01:13:49   between the characters later and maybe [TS]

01:13:51   it feels very compressed it feels like [TS]

01:13:53   12 issues of story put into four issues [TS]

01:13:56   of of comics in a way that Marvel's [TS]

01:13:59   obviously doesn't and I'm just so so [TS]

01:14:03   that's my only real complaint about is [TS]

01:14:05   it feels like there's too much here in [TS]

01:14:07   its two compressed and that there are [TS]

01:14:09   parts that just kind of weak what we we [TS]

01:14:11   we pull back and see some big details [TS]

01:14:14   because there's just not enough time [TS]

01:14:16   essentially in the running time of the [TS]

01:14:18   story but you know it is what I like [TS]

01:14:21   about it is that it is big and crazy and [TS]

01:14:24   iconic and about what happens if the if [TS]

01:14:27   you chart like a world with super heroes [TS]

01:14:30   in it [TS]

01:14:31   where does it end up logically which is [TS]

01:14:33   kind of like this it's there's too many [TS]

01:14:36   people and they're destroying everything [TS]

01:14:38   and what's the place regular people but [TS]

01:14:40   i wanted to throw it to you guys since [TS]

01:14:41   this is more of a traditional you know [TS]

01:14:44   it's a it different they're more story [TS]

01:14:46   here than there is in Marvel's doesn't [TS]

01:14:47   work in the end of look reading it now [TS]

01:14:49   does does what you know does came in [TS]

01:14:51   from work [TS]

01:14:52   Lisa so do you remember how we got about [TS]

01:14:55   10 years ago i think is grant morrison [TS]

01:14:58   did the seven soldiers and there was [TS]

01:15:00   like a four-issue serious I'm klarion [TS]

01:15:02   the witch boy in a four-issue series on [TS]

01:15:04   girl [TS]

01:15:06   this is kind of the exact opposite of it [TS]

01:15:08   act in that you could have done like [TS]

01:15:11   jason said you could have done like 20 [TS]

01:15:13   you could like seven separate miniseries [TS]

01:15:15   and link them all together [TS]

01:15:17   and really embroidered this universe I [TS]

01:15:20   would have loved to have seen something [TS]

01:15:21   like that and gotten more texture from [TS]

01:15:23   some of the teams especially the road [TS]

01:15:25   younger teams or the second or third [TS]

01:15:27   generation superheroes like again you've [TS]

01:15:30   got like a blood second or [TS]

01:15:31   third-generation Black Canary you've got [TS]

01:15:33   a kid flash a whole bunch of those that [TS]

01:15:35   said I think the compressed format kind [TS]

01:15:38   of works in a way to shock the reader [TS]

01:15:40   into accepting how dramatically things [TS]

01:15:42   have changed because over the space of a [TS]

01:15:44   few pages you have to accept that the [TS]

01:15:46   Joker and Lois Lane have both been [TS]

01:15:48   killed you have to accept that [TS]

01:15:49   Superman's gone to retirement you have [TS]

01:15:50   to accept that plain jane humans as it [TS]

01:15:53   were [TS]

01:15:53   who used to be superheroes are our [TS]

01:15:56   underground or retired you have to [TS]

01:15:57   accept that [TS]

01:15:58   Hockman has somehow turned into some [TS]

01:15:59   weird animal hybrid so your brain has to [TS]

01:16:03   kind of readjusting ok here we go what [TS]

01:16:04   are the rules and in that way I think it [TS]

01:16:07   makes for really great compact [TS]

01:16:09   storytelling but the the the the [TS]

01:16:12   world-building me would really like it [TS]

01:16:13   if it had been stretched out to like yet [TS]

01:16:15   twenty issues where you'd get the [TS]

01:16:16   spin-off series and you find out a [TS]

01:16:18   little bit more about how things got to [TS]

01:16:21   be the way they are or what's going on [TS]

01:16:23   inside the gulag get the time that soup [TS]

01:16:26   while Superman and Wonder Woman havin a [TS]

01:16:27   big old discussion about Brainiac or [TS]

01:16:29   what that means doing to set up all of [TS]

01:16:32   his chest pieces in the background and [TS]

01:16:34   why his son with the League of Assassins [TS]

01:16:36   is working where he's working because [TS]

01:16:38   there's a there are a lot of things that [TS]

01:16:40   are just lightly sketched out that I [TS]

01:16:41   would have liked to see more from just [TS]

01:16:42   for my own selfish nerdy perspective i'm [TS]

01:16:45   not a huge fan of the story of kingdom [TS]

01:16:47   come at all [TS]

01:16:49   there's sort of a human protagonist but [TS]

01:16:51   he's feels really shoehorned in there [TS]

01:16:54   and he never does anything and we never [TS]

01:16:56   even video cable he has a good talk with [TS]

01:16:59   Superman at the end [TS]

01:17:00   hmm well you know you've got to have a [TS]

01:17:02   broad audience surrogate and there [TS]

01:17:05   somewhere but I don't even know how this [TS]

01:17:07   guy feels about most of it's like he [TS]

01:17:09   comes in at the beginning of the issue [TS]

01:17:10   and then we can really worried he's [TS]

01:17:12   really worried about all of it [TS]

01:17:14   yeah I i prefer what Marvel's did even [TS]

01:17:19   if it's not strictly a narrative to what [TS]

01:17:21   kingdom come [TS]

01:17:22   does which has a narrative but I don't [TS]

01:17:25   think really executed all that well I [TS]

01:17:27   defy your stance sir [TS]

01:17:30   now I i enjoy Kingdom Come are far more [TS]

01:17:35   than Marvel's part of that is my [TS]

01:17:38   affinity for the big iconic DC universe [TS]

01:17:42   and the godlike heroes compared to the [TS]

01:17:45   ground level stuff that Marvel tends to [TS]

01:17:48   have but with the exception of the fact [TS]

01:17:53   that Phil Sheldon really doesn't do [TS]

01:17:55   enough in the story i know the point is [TS]

01:17:57   that he's supposed to be an observer and [TS]

01:17:59   he supposed to pass some sort of [TS]

01:18:00   judgment but the judgment moment passes [TS]

01:18:02   and then all that he is able to do is [TS]

01:18:05   council Superman at the end and I don't [TS]

01:18:08   think that that's waiting enough [TS]

01:18:09   other than that I think that this is a [TS]

01:18:13   more consistent better shaped story than [TS]

01:18:17   Marvel's because there is actually an [TS]

01:18:20   arc that goes through it there is a [TS]

01:18:22   problem seriously is there is an attempt [TS]

01:18:25   at a solution that escalates the problem [TS]

01:18:28   and finally there's a catastrophe and [TS]

01:18:30   there and then a day no mama [TS]

01:18:33   whereas in Marvel's it's just it is just [TS]

01:18:36   slice of life stuff that ends in a [TS]

01:18:39   tragedy and one guy's disillusionment so [TS]

01:18:42   as an adventure story as a story that I [TS]

01:18:45   think doesn't ask as much of its readers [TS]

01:18:47   in terms of bringing with them [TS]

01:18:49   continuity baggage I much prefer kingdom [TS]

01:18:52   come and i think it is a good story on [TS]

01:18:54   its own [TS]

01:18:54   to be fair Phil Sheldon never actually [TS]

01:18:56   talk to Superman because he's in [TS]

01:18:58   Marvel's but this is a point is the [TS]

01:19:00   Norman Norman and phil are but [TS]

01:19:03   everything I have said has just been [TS]

01:19:05   discredited the old highway you know and [TS]

01:19:07   get in here guys who observe things is a [TS]

01:19:10   connection between the East tues dories [TS]

01:19:13   so that's that that's I was really [TS]

01:19:16   clever there and then you had to do [TS]

01:19:18   sorry sorry chip Erica okay Erica what [TS]

01:19:21   do you think you can come you know I [TS]

01:19:23   actually read kingdom come first [TS]

01:19:26   many years ago and it for me it was it [TS]

01:19:29   was kind of I loved it at the time it [TS]

01:19:31   was a revelation [TS]

01:19:32   I've never been a big fan of superhero [TS]

01:19:34   comics so that's not something I was [TS]

01:19:36   drawn to and somebody gave me this and [TS]

01:19:38   said here this is different from from [TS]

01:19:40   the usual maybe you'll like this and i [TS]

01:19:43   did because it wasn't [TS]

01:19:44   not at all what I expected from a [TS]

01:19:46   superhero comic besides the fact that [TS]

01:19:48   they were much older [TS]

01:19:49   it was it was this really interesting [TS]

01:19:51   story you know taking the the idea of [TS]

01:19:55   superheroes in general and taking it [TS]

01:19:56   forward quite a bit and anytime you look [TS]

01:19:58   at sort of the the ramifications of what [TS]

01:20:00   might happen [TS]

01:20:01   that's an interesting science fiction & [TS]

01:20:03   rope for me so I quite enjoyed it i [TS]

01:20:06   thought it was momentous and it gave me [TS]

01:20:08   a little bit more information in my [TS]

01:20:11   pocket i guess just in general about [TS]

01:20:13   these key superheroes so i really liked [TS]

01:20:16   it and then cut to yesterday when i [TS]

01:20:19   started reading Marvel's I felt at first [TS]

01:20:22   as I was starting to read Marvel's I i [TS]

01:20:25   was thinking this is this just feels [TS]

01:20:26   much more sort of slick and new and then [TS]

01:20:31   the few DC things that i had read and I [TS]

01:20:34   was like oh I think I'm probably gonna [TS]

01:20:35   end up liking the DC stuff much better [TS]

01:20:38   but by the time i had gotten through the [TS]

01:20:41   beginning like it felt like Marvel [TS]

01:20:43   started slow by the time i got through [TS]

01:20:45   that into the end I was really enjoying [TS]

01:20:47   it like i said i was getting that [TS]

01:20:49   nostalgic family reunion kind of feeling [TS]

01:20:52   so-so i was i was in by the end they [TS]

01:20:55   pulled me in and then just a few hours [TS]

01:20:57   later I started reading kingdom come [TS]

01:20:59   and it was it was coming back to me and [TS]

01:21:02   I was getting some of those things same [TS]

01:21:04   feelings that I had before but I felt [TS]

01:21:06   like it was just reading it in such [TS]

01:21:10   closeness to Marvel's Marvel's was very [TS]

01:21:12   very kind of stripped down and it was [TS]

01:21:14   elegant and I felt like there was no [TS]

01:21:17   elegance in kingdom come [TS]

01:21:18   there was there is moment and grandiose [TS]

01:21:21   business but it was there was so much [TS]

01:21:23   stuff shoved in there and i completely [TS]

01:21:25   agree with everybody who said that it [TS]

01:21:28   just moves so fast and it's just kind of [TS]

01:21:30   squished together to me there are parts [TS]

01:21:32   of it where i felt like i was reading a [TS]

01:21:34   fairytale like something that's just [TS]

01:21:36   really stripped down to its most basic [TS]

01:21:38   bones you get you know you get your [TS]

01:21:40   catastrophe and then suddenly they're [TS]

01:21:42   living happily ever after and eating it [TS]

01:21:44   at planet Krypton so I i don't think [TS]

01:21:48   that came off as well the second reading [TS]

01:21:49   because i wasn't able to get into it as [TS]

01:21:53   emotionally because i felt like i was [TS]

01:21:54   waiting through a lot of plot that [TS]

01:21:57   while interesting conceptually is maybe [TS]

01:22:02   not as interesting to me now as it was [TS]

01:22:04   the first time I encountered it because [TS]

01:22:06   since then I've seen a lot more of that [TS]

01:22:07   kind of thing so I mean you know it's [TS]

01:22:11   perhaps suffering in comparison to the [TS]

01:22:13   you know 10 years or so in between when [TS]

01:22:15   i read it that I've experienced a lot [TS]

01:22:16   more stuff it's definitely a little more [TS]

01:22:19   zack snyder re i will give you that m is [TS]

01:22:22   what's your verdict on kingdom come [TS]

01:22:25   I i think it's fundamentally does [TS]

01:22:27   different things than Marvel's does for [TS]

01:22:30   me models is a different lens on [TS]

01:22:32   something in Kingdom Come is doing [TS]

01:22:34   something more epic and mythic in scope [TS]

01:22:37   and that's what I think attracted me to [TS]

01:22:40   it at a time when when i read it [TS]

01:22:43   originally that I was getting almost [TS]

01:22:45   completely out of superhero comics as [TS]

01:22:46   quickly as i would have gotten onto them [TS]

01:22:48   and was instead reading vertigo books [TS]

01:22:50   things like preacher and [TS]

01:22:51   transmetropolitan at probably too young [TS]

01:22:53   of an age and the really honestly the [TS]

01:22:57   thing that attracted me to it was the [TS]

01:23:00   capabilities of what you can do in [TS]

01:23:02   elseworld story which it one of the [TS]

01:23:04   things about the new 52 that drove me [TS]

01:23:06   the craziest is that it meant no more [TS]

01:23:08   elseworld stuff and elseworld stories [TS]

01:23:11   make up some of my favorite DC stories [TS]

01:23:14   because they they can play outside the [TS]

01:23:15   bounds of a reality as we mentioned [TS]

01:23:18   earlier of course now this is Earth 22 [TS]

01:23:20   kingdom come [TS]

01:23:21   earth and the ongoing multi versity [TS]

01:23:24   thing that is bleeding into or [TS]

01:23:26   overlapping with this convergence thing [TS]

01:23:28   that they're doing the summer we might [TS]

01:23:30   get the 28 part [TS]

01:23:32   taian issue you know digging into [TS]

01:23:35   different corners of the kingdom come [TS]

01:23:36   universe know we've never explode [TS]

01:23:38   I don't just saying that that's actual [TS]

01:23:40   reality and it's all grant morrison's [TS]

01:23:42   fault that if it is it if there if there [TS]

01:23:46   is a thing that that stuck out to me [TS]

01:23:48   most reading it again [TS]

01:23:51   DC does a line of reprints called [TS]

01:23:54   absolute editions they don't four [TS]

01:23:56   Watchmen for hush got that all kinds of [TS]

01:23:58   stuff [TS]

01:23:58   The Sandman one's beautiful the same man [TS]

01:24:00   one is amazing and I like an idiot [TS]

01:24:03   didn't get in on absolute kingdom come [TS]

01:24:06   which when you're dealing with this kind [TS]

01:24:08   of denseness of imagery [TS]

01:24:10   rereading this trade paperback from [TS]

01:24:12   almost 20 years ago where a bunch of the [TS]

01:24:14   art is cropped off at the at the glue [TS]

01:24:17   binding i found myself really [TS]

01:24:19   desperately wishing that I had that big [TS]

01:24:21   oversized thing like i do for planetary [TS]

01:24:22   and for a number of other things I [TS]

01:24:25   kingdom comes it is the sort of thing [TS]

01:24:27   that I i would want a peek into some of [TS]

01:24:31   those other little bits of this world [TS]

01:24:34   like this world is more fascinating to [TS]

01:24:36   me than the vast majority of what DC has [TS]

01:24:38   done with their new 52 line and most of [TS]

01:24:40   their superhero stuff for quite a while [TS]

01:24:42   and I just I just what I want I i feel [TS]

01:24:48   myself wanting more but being perfectly [TS]

01:24:50   satisfied not getting more and even if i [TS]

01:24:53   pretend like the kingdom follow-up never [TS]

01:24:55   happened [TS]

01:24:56   i I'm fine with that I'm fine with this [TS]

01:24:59   standing on its own as for me the most [TS]

01:25:03   definitive use of the concepts behind [TS]

01:25:06   Twilight superheroes that Alan more put [TS]

01:25:09   together that that I I think anybody [TS]

01:25:12   could get away with in this world of [TS]

01:25:14   multiverses and realities crashing into [TS]

01:25:17   each other and all that kind of stuff [TS]

01:25:18   yeah it's a like I said I wonder what [TS]

01:25:22   attracts me to it is the debt freedom to [TS]

01:25:23   tell a story that it doesn't fit into [TS]

01:25:25   anything else it's just an interesting [TS]

01:25:27   story and this is this mythic you know [TS]

01:25:29   Superman is as Jesus's and actually [TS]

01:25:32   really interesting idea really the story [TS]

01:25:34   we've seen a bunch of different [TS]

01:25:36   variations on it [TS]

01:25:37   I mean you know he was sent from another [TS]

01:25:39   world you know [TS]

01:25:41   Krypton is only sunset yeah we know we [TS]

01:25:43   got it from but it is uh it's it's a [TS]

01:25:48   fascinating story I after after you know [TS]

01:25:51   not having read it for you know five [TS]

01:25:53   years or seven years or something and [TS]

01:25:54   revisiting it I i have forgotten its [TS]

01:25:57   flaws and remembered its virtues and you [TS]

01:26:01   know I like i said i think that the [TS]

01:26:02   story is there a lot of moments where [TS]

01:26:05   the story just kind of gets there's a [TS]

01:26:07   lot of detail but it's just like to move [TS]

01:26:10   us to the next scene with dialogue where [TS]

01:26:13   the characters are discussing what [TS]

01:26:14   they're doing there's a lot of computer [TS]

01:26:16   compression happening you know in an era [TS]

01:26:19   where we are so much decompression in [TS]

01:26:21   comics it is quite jarring at [TS]

01:26:23   x to see the level of like amazing [TS]

01:26:26   compression that happens to fit more [TS]

01:26:29   stuff into kingdom come [TS]

01:26:30   yeah it felt really weird wanting some [TS]

01:26:32   decompression which is the thing that I [TS]

01:26:35   find myself declining at every turn [TS]

01:26:37   every chance I get [TS]

01:26:38   but I'd yeah it's just there's panels [TS]

01:26:42   here that should be multiple pages [TS]

01:26:43   rights but that's just not the story [TS]

01:26:45   that they're telling and that's why I I [TS]

01:26:47   like a comic that leaves an impression [TS]

01:26:49   that there's so much more that you know [TS]

01:26:51   if you sit here and stare at this one [TS]

01:26:53   panel like an oil painting for the next [TS]

01:26:56   five hours you'll totally understand it [TS]

01:26:58   man [TS]

01:26:59   right i kinda like that for me that was [TS]

01:27:01   kind of overwhelming is being the [TS]

01:27:02   complete noob that in in Marvel's there [TS]

01:27:06   were it's sort of the there's a warmth [TS]

01:27:09   to it and it made me curious about what [TS]

01:27:11   it was in that was in the background [TS]

01:27:13   that was going on [TS]

01:27:14   whereas here it was just a you know it's [TS]

01:27:17   not a wall of sound it's a wall of [TS]

01:27:19   superheroes yes something happen and you [TS]

01:27:21   and it was just as you'll see way the [TS]

01:27:25   title in and of itself is more imposing [TS]

01:27:27   than what I think modern DC would call [TS]

01:27:29   something like this which would be [TS]

01:27:30   something like justice league the [TS]

01:27:32   revelation and it's funny because you're [TS]

01:27:35   right but like that's really what that [TS]

01:27:37   the end they would if they made an [TS]

01:27:39   animated movie out of it would be called [TS]

01:27:40   justice league revelation that the [TS]

01:27:43   religious part of it is something that [TS]

01:27:45   did I just wanted to call out i'm not an [TS]

01:27:47   overtly religious person not really [TS]

01:27:49   religious person at all but the thing [TS]

01:27:51   that I like about the inclusion of it [TS]

01:27:53   whether you give a crap about one [TS]

01:27:56   religion or another is that for me [TS]

01:27:59   where other things like infinity crusade [TS]

01:28:02   and crossover events and everything is [TS]

01:28:03   employed religious imagery and just [TS]

01:28:05   really laid it on thick and made the [TS]

01:28:07   most ham-fisted crazily terribly wrought [TS]

01:28:10   religious allegories in this one it [TS]

01:28:13   really it works for me in in the kind of [TS]

01:28:15   sense of this being the superheroes [TS]

01:28:17   ragnarok the the kind of thing the grant [TS]

01:28:19   morrison wrote a book called super God's [TS]

01:28:22   about about these method characters [TS]

01:28:24   being the pantheon [TS]

01:28:25   olympus for the modern age in in terms [TS]

01:28:29   of the way that we look at them and [TS]

01:28:30   think about them instead of taking on a [TS]

01:28:33   they they guide the way that we live our [TS]

01:28:35   lives they [TS]

01:28:36   guide the way that we be asked about [TS]

01:28:38   stuff on podcast I i think there's there [TS]

01:28:42   is something interesting there and that [TS]

01:28:44   that it isn't incredibly crazily [TS]

01:28:47   didactic I I i think it carries that off [TS]

01:28:51   rather well you could say the inclusion [TS]

01:28:53   of the the perspective of the audience [TS]

01:28:56   being a pastor himself but that's a [TS]

01:28:59   bridge too far for you but it's not for [TS]

01:29:01   me and I'm I'm usually the first one to [TS]

01:29:03   rail against that kind of stuff as just [TS]

01:29:05   being oh great well where's the where's [TS]

01:29:07   the priest and a rabbi the whole premise [TS]

01:29:09   here is essentially what if the [TS]

01:29:11   superheroes bring about the end times I [TS]

01:29:13   mean that is the premise you just gotta [TS]

01:29:15   go into a nightmare yeah you have a [TS]

01:29:17   bunch of super-powered people that shoot [TS]

01:29:18   lasers out of their eyes and thunder out [TS]

01:29:20   of the right now they're gone they're [TS]

01:29:21   God's let's just I mean that's what [TS]

01:29:23   that's what this is saying is that they [TS]

01:29:24   are there the gods for God's walk among [TS]

01:29:26   this like they did in the olden days of [TS]

01:29:28   the you know Greek myths and this is the [TS]

01:29:31   result which is the end of days is upon [TS]

01:29:33   us and I think that's yeah that's [TS]

01:29:35   interesting but it's certainly I mean it [TS]

01:29:38   certainly takes itself seriously at [TS]

01:29:40   times with all of that which is I think [TS]

01:29:42   one of the charming things about the [TS]

01:29:43   ending because the ending is just [TS]

01:29:45   delightful human and doesn't take itself [TS]

01:29:48   seriously and it's a great relief after [TS]

01:29:51   the operatic drama of the end of the [TS]

01:29:54   world and these moral decisions and all [TS]

01:29:56   these horrible things that are happening [TS]

01:29:57   in the rest of the book [TS]

01:29:59   yeah you have a planet hollywood themed [TS]

01:30:01   restaurant where the Carrie Kelly Robin [TS]

01:30:03   is waiting on them apparently Booster [TS]

01:30:05   Gold is the manager i notice mr. [TS]

01:30:07   Goldin's the place [TS]

01:30:08   excuse me mr referred to as the mail to [TS]

01:30:11   know the manager ok I i thought i [TS]

01:30:13   remembered him as being the owner and he [TS]

01:30:15   shows up to talk to him to another [TS]

01:30:16   friends are framing story finally talked [TS]

01:30:18   to the school about that anything more [TS]

01:30:19   about kingdom come before we wrap it up [TS]

01:30:21   that people have on their agenda that [TS]

01:30:23   they wanted to get to and that we fail [TS]

01:30:24   to get to applaud them for trying to [TS]

01:30:26   write a story outside of continuity but [TS]

01:30:28   in DC every time you try that you just [TS]

01:30:30   created an entire new version of its own [TS]

01:30:32   continuity it's impossible [TS]

01:30:35   my only other thing to say about it was [TS]

01:30:37   just that the the one character that I [TS]

01:30:39   had any real emotional connection to in [TS]

01:30:41   this was Wonder Woman yeah [TS]

01:30:43   simply because when I was a kid I had a [TS]

01:30:46   book it wasn't even a comic book it was [TS]

01:30:48   like a hardcover [TS]

01:30:49   in children's book and I think it might [TS]

01:30:51   even come with a tape that you could [TS]

01:30:52   play along with it manager about the the [TS]

01:30:55   origin of wonder woman and I thought [TS]

01:30:57   that's the only marvel or DC comic book [TS]

01:31:01   thing that I had in my life for decades [TS]

01:31:04   and but i loved it I loved it so much so [TS]

01:31:06   I've always sort of had this affinity [TS]

01:31:07   for wonder woman even though don't [TS]

01:31:09   actually know how she developed in the [TS]

01:31:11   real comic books so I got to this and I [TS]

01:31:15   just sort of had this sort of ephemeral [TS]

01:31:17   picture in my head and then there was [TS]

01:31:19   this one woman who is so much more real [TS]

01:31:21   and stark and she had emotional issues [TS]

01:31:25   going on there is turmoil inside her and [TS]

01:31:27   her life outside was not going great and [TS]

01:31:29   I i think it was really good it but I [TS]

01:31:32   have very mixed emotions about it [TS]

01:31:34   because I want her to be my you know [TS]

01:31:36   happy perfect lady but on the other hand [TS]

01:31:38   I want characters to be interesting and [TS]

01:31:41   that you know diverse and it have have [TS]

01:31:44   issues and have troubles because that's [TS]

01:31:46   the way the world works so I I want to [TS]

01:31:49   just give a thumbs-up to wonder woman [TS]

01:31:50   here because she was a pretty detailed [TS]

01:31:53   layered character that was not what I [TS]

01:31:55   was expecting but i think was refreshing [TS]

01:31:58   to me as a reader [TS]

01:31:59   alright well I feel like we have reached [TS]

01:32:01   we have reached the end lots of alex [TS]

01:32:03   ross art to digest i enjoyed Marvel's [TS]

01:32:07   more in the reread but i think the [TS]

01:32:09   marvels is a it's easy to enjoy Marvel's [TS]

01:32:12   more because it is that without [TS]

01:32:13   widescreen big splash pages and [TS]

01:32:15   nostalgia trip it whereas Kingdom Come [TS]

01:32:18   is this super detailed compressed story [TS]

01:32:21   they're very they are very different [TS]

01:32:23   despite the fact that i always group [TS]

01:32:24   them together because when they came out [TS]

01:32:26   when i discovered them in the fact that [TS]

01:32:27   the artist so similar because it's the [TS]

01:32:28   same guy but they are very different [TS]

01:32:30   ones backward-looking was kind of [TS]

01:32:32   forward-looking and I guess now from the [TS]

01:32:34   perspective of not in the nineties [TS]

01:32:36   sideways looking but really interesting [TS]

01:32:39   both of them and I i was glad to to [TS]

01:32:42   revisit them and I was glad that you all [TS]

01:32:44   were here to visit them with me so [TS]

01:32:46   thanks to everybody [TS]

01:32:48   I'm now thank you intern because that is [TS]

01:32:50   my style as a host of a podcast Monty [TS]

01:32:54   Ashley you were here and I thank you for [TS]

01:32:56   it [TS]

01:32:57   the face front true true believer fair [TS]

01:33:00   enough moisture jaan you were also here [TS]

01:33:02   and I [TS]

01:33:03   thank you for it thank you for having me [TS]

01:33:05   this is a wonderful breath of fresh air [TS]

01:33:07   to to myself being in the middle of a [TS]

01:33:09   massive crossover on crossovers epic on [TS]

01:33:12   my own comment yes and please visit DSN [TS]

01:33:14   dot FM i will i will give you a link [TS]

01:33:16   with to the beginning of this [TS]

01:33:17   never-ending series of crossovers [TS]

01:33:20   shadownet I'm sold [TS]

01:33:22   Moises has many podcasts their chips [TS]

01:33:24   utter thank you for joining us you were [TS]

01:33:26   also present tonight up a jumble of [TS]

01:33:28   images a cacophony of apocalyptic verse [TS]

01:33:31   and still makes so little sense [TS]

01:33:34   Lisa Schmeisser that you love you too [TS]

01:33:37   are you two were present surprise you [TS]

01:33:39   were here too [TS]

01:33:40   hello there well put and Erica and sign [TS]

01:33:44   you you to participate tonight thank you [TS]

01:33:48   excelsior oh well played [TS]

01:33:52   I think she wins yes i think so you got [TS]

01:33:54   it you've got to do the Stanley voice or [TS]

01:33:56   doesn't have as much punch XL Shiar ok [TS]

01:34:00   not being very good at stanley the [TS]

01:34:04   official movie actor of Willie lump get [TS]

01:34:06   as CNN marbles [TS]

01:34:08   yes soon markets exactly right and I i [TS]

01:34:10   I'm Jason I was also here and now i'm [TS]

01:34:13   going to go away as is this podcast you [TS]

01:34:15   stay tuned or whatever is next in your [TS]

01:34:18   podcast app this is the incomparable [TS]

01:34:21   stay tuned for the flophouse or negative [TS]

01:34:25   force for whatever [TS]