0:00:00now I always end up seeking back to figure out what part I missed where
0:00:04where the podcast started to realize it just starts it is how it goes Craig it
0:00:12is so we add this is a great thrill for me to be speaking to you
0:00:20craig Venter et senior vice president of software engineering was the company
0:00:28Apple Apple Apple yes and we are talking on the occasion of the open sourcing of
0:00:38Swift which went live last week what day was it last week was last thursday was a
0:00:46knit yeah it's a huge yeah yeah it's better was it was incredibly exciting
0:00:52for us yes so we're speaking as we speak it's about a week later so how do you
0:00:56think this first week of swift as an open source project is gone
0:01:00yeah really really well i mean the the level of activity on on get home buyers
0:01:06is off the charts I mean we we've had really high aspirations for swift from
0:01:11the beginning but at every step it's been pretty amazing for us how much
0:01:16bigger it's gone and we could have could have ever hoped and I think already on
0:01:20github were more active project then I think all the other languages that are
0:01:24on get help which is just just incredible for first we can go over
0:01:2860,000 people have taken a clone of the project so it's it's it's pretty amazing
0:01:37and the team is just ecstatic over the whole thing there's different ways for a
0:01:43big company especially a big company to do
0:01:45quote-unquote open source project there's sort of like yes technically
0:01:49it's open source but it's really just sort of a zip file with a open source
0:01:53license and there goes you have at it
0:01:57and then there's the actively engaging in a community manner with the outer
0:02:06world and i'd so when you guys announced a double-double PCs with to be open
0:02:10source I think there was some skeptics who thought maybe it was going to be a
0:02:13while technically it's open source in here it is but this is really like
0:02:17full-throttle fully engaged with the world outside Cupertino yeah I mean it's
0:02:24funny I guess there there always will be skeptics but anyone who's been watching
0:02:29our team in the context of the yellow VMworld climbing lol debe entender
0:02:36WebKit team would see how much developing in the open is the the spirit
0:02:44of those teams and so the swift team has been among the most engaged with our
0:02:50developer community of any group in Apple even even prior to open sourcing
0:02:55in terms of from the first launch of our Announcements with 10 in the App Store I
0:03:00mean at the wEDC and how much they were engaging with all the feedback that was
0:03:06coming in and modifying the language right up to 21 . oh and beyond and this
0:03:13is really an extension of how the only way they really have ever wanted to work
0:03:17and so yeah they they are very excited to be working completely in the open and
0:03:23it really is a case where as in all the features in in swift that will be
0:03:29announcing officially to the world and our next developer conference
0:03:34you know you can sort of see them unfold before your eyes in the time leading up
0:03:37to that as they're working on the open on github just like everything else
0:03:42Apple does very very similar to everything else we do that's the thing
0:03:49that to me is most and I know that you know get home makes it easy to track all
0:03:52these changes and see how many people are involved but to me that if you just
0:03:56wanna quick look at just how much this is a collaboration between the swift
0:04:02team at Apple and the outside world it's the swift evolution mailing list
0:04:09where you know you guys have been up front about this right from swift 1.0 in
0:04:152014 that this is not a finished language we didn't you know you didnt go
0:04:20and finish a language and here it is
0:04:22have added you know we are still working on this a lot of what we're going to be
0:04:27working on is tell us what what you need here on the mailing list there are
0:04:32people actively engaging and and employees from Apple you know Chris
0:04:36Lattner in the people on Steam are fully engaging with these ideas and proposals
0:04:41that are coming from outside the company already one week one week into it being
0:04:46an open source project oh yeah i i really think our team is really seasoned
0:04:52team in the world of of developing languages and and we know that a
0:04:57language really can't be developed in the vacuum it's it is a product of of
0:05:03how people use it the problems that people are trying to solve and so we
0:05:08knew from the outset was swift 10 that we could come up with the language that
0:05:12first step you have to crystallize your basic ideas and have a starting point
0:05:16but we knew we needed feedback then to work toward the language that that
0:05:21ultimately Swift has and has become and will become the future but that we we
0:05:27needed to have this kind of open open dialogue open sourcing is as you say
0:05:32just really accelerating and deepening the kind of be back that that we're
0:05:37getting in so it's it's really energizing for us I think it's really
0:05:41exciting for a lot of the developers in our community as well be a part of it
0:05:45what are the other reasons too
0:05:49to go open source with with a new programming language you know when we
0:05:55talked about it just briefly wEDC I think we laid out the big ones which
0:06:00which are for us
0:06:02Swift is we think the primary programming language that developers
0:06:09should be taught to programming in actually mean if you're gonna learn
0:06:13computer science Swift is a fantastic learning language
0:06:16and if you're a developer who is going to invest huge part of your career in in
0:06:23mastering swift and developing codons with your gonna want the ability to use
0:06:28that code in every context possible to use your skill in that language in all
0:06:33the environments in which you have to work to do your job so whether your
0:06:36script in your build system writing web services of course writing your mobile
0:06:43applications we want to make sure that that's you can invest in swift in that
0:06:49way and know that it's going to be available to you
0:06:51everywhere and so we saw open sourcing as a critical element tool make swift
0:06:57reach its potential to be to be language the major language for the next twenty
0:07:03years of programming in our industry it's a really ambitious goal it is it is
0:07:09but i i think you know at every point along the way is this this has been our
0:07:14vision from before we first unleashed Swift on the world but at every step
0:07:19actually the reaction has really outdone our expectations so maybe our goal isn't
0:07:28so outlandish do you think that I would say that that for education purposes it
0:07:34really has to be open source because there's really no way that language is
0:07:38going to take take root as a teaching language if its proprietary to Apple
0:07:45platform or any other you know
0:07:48vendors platform right you know we had a lot of universities who would teach a
0:07:54specialized mobile programming course on iOS programming course in that context
0:07:58of course they teach swift and and Stanford has an outstanding courses on
0:08:03iTunes you about programming in Swift 22 program on iOS
0:08:08but when it comes to bringing in the core curriculum that every student in
0:08:12the University acetate to let's say learn computer science making an open
0:08:16source having it available to every student on whatever platform they're
0:08:20going to use to do their work is is we we think ultimately huge enabler and so
0:08:27many of the people we talked to the professors wanted to use the language in
0:08:32these ways but they needed it to be open source for this to happen and so we're
0:08:39really excited to follow through with them on this why not open source it what
0:08:46what were the downsides that were debated before you decide you know made
0:08:50the decision to go with it you know that there really weren't
0:08:56of course talked it over
0:08:59linked with a tough time coming up with a significant reason not to do it it was
0:09:06more a when question is is it now and we knew after 10 that that we weren't quite
0:09:14there that we wanted to get that first round of feedback begin to stabilize the
0:09:18definition of a language but as we got close to WWDC this last year we realized
0:09:26we were where we needed to be to take a step that we knew was was gonna happen
0:09:30it was going to be this year was going to be that the following year and and we
0:09:33realized we were where we needed to be and so we we moved ahead and the hunger
0:09:39out there
0:09:40was was so great we thought let's let's do it now but but the downsides are are
0:09:46really limited I mean I think it's it's inevitable but positive that Swift will
0:09:52be used in all kinds of context outside of Apple that's that's kind of the point
0:09:56so that's fine it's clear we're gonna get a lot of people wanting to do things
0:10:03with the language that are directly related to Apple's line of business and
0:10:08that's ok right that's that's actually fine as well so they're just there
0:10:14weren't a lot of down sides and and we think the up sides are tremendous one of
0:10:21the areas that I would I think it's definitely I see so much excitement
0:10:24about it already is in terms of being cross platform is the use of Swift on
0:10:28servers yes and you know a lot of that is certainly going to be limits and you
0:10:33guys have already done the port to Linux that's right and and that's that's an
0:10:38area where I feel like I have no idea why I feel like it's going to be used
0:10:43but i just so we're clear we don't know where that's going to be but do you do
0:10:47you see that happening that it's going to be used for a lot of server-based
0:10:50development that's really outside Apple's platforms oh totally yeah I mean
0:10:55you know from really the out said IBM for instance jumped all over swift for
0:11:01building their mobile apps and almost immediately they were coming back to us
0:11:07with we really want to use this on the server how can we can we get this on the
0:11:12server and of course with an Apple is tremendous passion for swift and our own
0:11:18iCloud team has been completely chomping at the bit to be able to apply it in in
0:11:22many many of the things they do
0:11:24so I think it's it's going to be the first among the first country gal uses
0:11:30of swift and of course these days so many mobile applications are part mobile
0:11:36app part server code and a lot of cases you you the very least want to share
0:11:40your knowledge but very often you wanna share parts your code parts your model
0:11:44layers are you till the library she wants and and having swift enabling you
0:11:49to do that is going to be huge for a lot of our community
0:11:53I can definitely see that that to me is sort of the building for the future
0:11:58various aspects of Swift vs say Objective C which has roots from 20 or
0:12:06even thirty years ago and yet the fact that the the cloud of everyone I call it
0:12:12but you know client software running on a device talking to servers some are
0:12:17often internet is part of why I would save almost certainly the overwhelming
0:12:22majority of apps that are being written for these platforms that having a
0:12:26language that makes sense in both ends of the communication is huge
0:12:31exactly exactly and you know if you if you look at where I think it is for a
0:12:36lot of developers prior to Swift they probably were using Objective C if they
0:12:44had high performance code they had to write part of objective Cesc and so they
0:12:48were dropping down into see to do some of the more optimized work which can be
0:12:52almost another language there's a real continuum there within the environment
0:12:57they might have been using a scripting language for part of what they do and
0:13:02then they might be using a server-side language like Java and swift is uniquely
0:13:08capable of spanning from really easy and natural kind of scripting expressive
0:13:13uses its a great application programming language but it was also designed to be
0:13:18a great systems language and be really fast so that you can do see kind of high
0:13:22performance work without compromises in swift and then it's gonna work in in the
0:13:27cloud as well so
0:13:29I think it's going to really unified environment for a lot of developers is a
0:13:35how would you describe systems language addison's disease rate from the one of
0:13:41my note here from the swift programming language it says Swift is intended to be
0:13:45quote the first industrial quality systems programming language that is
0:13:49expressive an enjoyable as a scripting language designed to scale from hello
0:13:53world to an entire operating system but what does systems programming language
0:13:59well there there's there's some some low-level bits and and some matters of
0:14:05spirit I think in terms of low-level bits with has a very predictable memory
0:14:13management model a very very contained runtime if you look at traditional
0:14:18scripting languages or languages like Java there they run garbage collectors
0:14:27you really can't control memory in a way so swift builds on our our technology
0:14:35that first came to Objective C
0:14:38to provide really high performance and really predictable and manageable memory
0:14:42management which means that if you wanted to write everything from an
0:14:46operating system kernel to high-performance graphics library you
0:14:50could do that without inheriting a huge per process memory footprint overhead
0:14:55and you see that when you see how Apple's OS and apps are able to run in a
0:15:03lower memory footprint and we're able to ship devices with her memory footprints
0:15:07then competitors who use language that don't have this characteristic but Swift
0:15:13is also designed so that when it can be fast it's as fast as can be so we aren't
0:15:21taking the overhead of dynamic dispatch for every call but yeah we can provide
0:15:27dynamism when when needed
0:15:31we can optimize you use an array and swift we can be every bit is optimal and
0:15:38do
0:15:39vectorization and parallelization in ways that you would expect from after my
0:15:45C code but a very hard to do if you were trying to optimize Ruby or Python or
0:15:52even in Objective C you know NSArray built on top of the Foundation Classes
0:15:57and so you can go very very low level and get very predictable performance
0:16:03audio hardware so in other words it's at least comparisons compared to Objective
0:16:09C that objective see there's so many great things we could say about it it's
0:16:12served you know Apple so incredibly well it still will for the foreseeable future
0:16:18in so many ways but there's this big butt which is that sometimes you need to
0:16:23drop down into C C++ and now you're losing all of the stuff that you love
0:16:32about Objective C because you need to drop down temporarily for performance
0:16:36reasons and swift don't need to do that you can write a high-performance code
0:16:40right in there that's right i mean swift I think one of them we first introduce
0:16:45swift we we said we're imagining a world where we took we loved about Objective C
0:16:51without caring for the baggage of see what that man is swift has to replace
0:16:57see in its role in Objective C programming and it does that really well
0:17:02while bringing all of these higher levels of abstraction and higher
0:17:08productivity programming techniques to writing that kind of high-performance
0:17:12systems code but also so great for poor out code so one thing that Swift is not
0:17:21a mean and I think we've already covered this but it's not Objective C with
0:17:25prettier better syntex and it's the syntax of objective see that people find
0:17:32off-putting at least at first and I know that you know
0:17:36that's a debate that the people who love objectives he interviewed that for
0:17:39decades
0:17:39you know it's a never-ending argument but at least at first even if you really
0:17:45really love Objective C you after you can't avoid the fact that at first it
0:17:51looked weird huh
0:17:53admit I i'm Objective C lover and I i you know there were plenty of good
0:17:59debates internally about you know should we have a small talk inspired syntax
0:18:03should we should we stick with something like Objective C but but it is a in the
0:18:13end it can go either way and what we were able to retain in swift are the
0:18:21these serve literate nature of API's that Objective C enable the readability
0:18:26of code with the labeled arguments and we brought all of that too swift while
0:18:32the same time having a sin tax that is just much more concise and at this point
0:18:36with the the server evolution of people's expectations are on programming
0:18:39languages just much more natural for them is is part of the thinking there
0:18:45that in terms of the small talk inspired dynamic runtime that you didn't need a
0:18:54new language do that because you already have Objective C and that you can go you
0:18:59know that for the future for the next twenty years that that sort of that sort
0:19:05of model of looking at frameworks and programming languages isn't the best way
0:19:10to go from here going forward
0:19:12no i would i would really separate I know it's I would separate the the
0:19:16syntax from some of the underline aspects of the runtime and the
0:19:23programming model
0:19:24swift you know some of my favorite features from Objective C are things
0:19:31like protocols categories which it was in swift are called extensions and those
0:19:42literate API's as well as first-class classes with with class methods all of
0:19:49these things that are so important for us to build great API's and great
0:19:55extensible frameworks were were brought to swift along with things like labeled
0:20:02arguments and slowly we've also been bringing back much of the dynamism now
0:20:09there's some things that are possible in Objective C and most the dynamism that
0:20:12you really want is the ability to figure out what class is this really be able to
0:20:19cast the class dynamically to a particular protocol to be able to do a
0:20:24lack of response to select to perform selector check all these things are
0:20:28possible and swift today
0:20:30enter some other things that aren't but that certainly we consider important
0:20:34ultimately brain bring to the language so this thing about a dynamic
0:20:39programming model is is still very important to us now the some very unsafe
0:20:44things that people do in Objective C and I've been guilty of this myself where
0:20:49you walk the objective here on time and hack the method table and that's cool
0:20:53but it is it is highly unsafe and doesn't lead to very maintainable
0:20:57scalable large programs some of those techniques but the vast vast majority
0:21:00what makes Objective C great and dynamic is is part of either part of Swift now
0:21:05or certainly part of our ongoing ambition for the language but the thing
0:21:10we didn't want to bring from Objective C is that in Objective C you're paying the
0:21:15overhead of that dynamism all the time you know you're trying to use an array
0:21:21or some some class and you've got the compiler with both hands tied behind its
0:21:25back in terms of opportunities for optimization
0:21:28and therefore seen the developer to then modify the way they've written their
0:21:33code maybe drop down to see for something where performance matters for
0:21:37swift because it's safer has more type information it gives the compiler what
0:21:42it needs to optimize when it can but that that alone doesn't stand in the way
0:21:47of all the in my opinion all the dynamism that matters in layman's terms
0:21:53and probably been a long time since I program particularly but I think that
0:22:05the big difference is that with with Objective C what you mean you know
0:22:12people may not even know what a runtime is more like what it means is you
0:22:14compile the abbot starts running and a lot of the stuff gets decided within the
0:22:19app while it's running and with swift by by doing these things at compile time in
0:22:25knowing more of the type information forcing you to to to be a little more
0:22:30specific about the type information up front it it it enables the compiler to
0:22:37do more efficient things before the ABA's even running because it's it's
0:22:41happening at the time that the app is compiled that's right that's right in
0:22:46the new permits all kinds of optimizations because maybe if the
0:22:50compiler can determine ahead of time said absolutely this object you're about
0:22:56to message is that a certain type and we know it's done whole module optimization
0:23:02and we know what the result of that what that method is sometimes the compiler
0:23:07could even in line the implementation in even involve the overhead a function
0:23:10call so I let alone a dynamic method dispatch and so you really that's that's
0:23:16part of how you can get these incredible you know and optimize see kinds of
0:23:20performance numbers out of what looks at you get to write as as very high level
0:23:28code so swift I think has a really excellent balance there but the key is
0:23:34we still have a runtime where you can look at your classes and and introspect
0:23:41down and and there's there's more of more of that coming with which partly is
0:23:49is on an open road map and partly is you know and in terms of the framework for
0:23:54the operating system obviously is the sort of thing to be able to talk about
0:23:57in advance because that's not the stuff that that open source that's right i
0:24:01mean some of it honestly you will you will see us bringing up over the course
0:24:08of the coming months in the context the open source project because certain
0:24:11things that that our team is well will take on will will bring them forward as
0:24:19proposals to the open source community and then you'll see a start to implement
0:24:22them so I don't wanna I wanna jump the gun and pronounce everything that the
0:24:26team is thinking but as soon as they have already pronounced a bunch of the
0:24:32things you know big big part of focus we want to make sure was clear right out of
0:24:36the gates with swift was that the golf course with three was really to
0:24:42stabilize the binary interface and to refine the API's and finalize our API
0:24:48guidelines in all of those things because we want I think I think its the
0:24:52the next important step is to really stabilize the language and the
0:24:57environment for for community and that's a that's a big task one of the things
0:25:01that's been so great about Objective C is it has this great stability where
0:25:09that have enabled us to write frameworks with minor compatible interfaces release
0:25:14of her release release something that languages like C++ really can get right
0:25:19and we absolutely need to bring that to to Swift so we've we've brought forward
0:25:26some of those goals but there are other things of course that will be
0:25:30added to the 30 ambitions as time goes on over the coming months
0:25:35one of the complaints I've seen and I am part of this is just it it impossible to
0:25:41avoid I think with with how early in its evolution Swift was unveiled to the
0:25:47world but that i've what i've seen from developer friend and just commentary on
0:25:52the internet is that it's hard right now to write a large-scale application in
0:25:58swift Apple AAPL has more people working on cocoa apps than any other company in
0:26:06the world for obvious reasons you know how has the feedback from the internal
0:26:12developers the people you know that people who work for you the engineers
0:26:16who work for you
0:26:17with extensive experience shipping user facing apps shape the direction of Swift
0:26:22from 1.0 to what went on a road map for 3.0 yeah well I mean of course there
0:26:28elements we have all all types here with an apple red just like there there are
0:26:32people that are like the external community objective you know they start
0:26:40out with the I love Objective C I don't wanna change to ok hold on maybe there's
0:26:45something to this with thing to let me give it a try to my god I love it and so
0:26:50they've we've gone through all the phases internally you know we've had
0:26:56some really great adoption by teams like the team that does the doc and window
0:27:02management analyst and who converted
0:27:06implemented all their new features 40 capitan in in swift and started mass
0:27:10converting all their code and say that they just couldn't imagine going back
0:27:15and that they're they're more productive with it
0:27:18part part of what our internal teams need to deal with though is that there
0:27:22were keen on let's say the current version of Swift 2.0 while it's not done
0:27:29yet and so it's it's a meanwhile it's not even WWDC level done yet right and
0:27:36so and they're working on the interfaces in terms of our internal frameworks that
0:27:43haven't been modernized for swift and so it can be you know they they they get it
0:27:48rough they gotta go to really love it too
0:27:50to make that leap because they're working on a very very bleeding edge
0:27:54environment when we use an internally thankfully with with with 2.0 now you
0:28:00know well out the door
0:28:01that's that's stabilize things are good bit and they're really open to it but
0:28:05there's there's been just a lot of feedback and a lot of it has helped with
0:28:12the impedance making sure the impedance between Objective C and swift is is
0:28:18absolutely minimize because of course we have and will continue to have continued
0:28:23writing more Objective C code and so the ability of swift and Objective C code to
0:28:31work together completely naturally is is a huge focus and a bunch of things like
0:28:37Generic elections support for for lightweight generics in Objective C
0:28:41where a big pain point internally and something that we fixed in language and
0:28:47is now great for all of our oliver app developers externally so it's it's been
0:28:56out it's been a not dissimilar road for us internally does to what you see
0:28:59outside but in terms of swift and and and riding big absence certainly the
0:29:04case that once with 10 came out and didn't we didn't support incremental
0:29:08compilation and the very first updating so that was that was gonna be a limiting
0:29:13factor for productivity for four people that the gaps a lot of that stuff has
0:29:18changed and then in 2.0 having a good error handling model
0:29:22availability check so you could span API versions these sorts of things really
0:29:29address the vast majority of the pain points that that we were experienced in
0:29:34that I think the community was experiencing about writing larger apps
0:29:37and so much routes which is actually inherently better for building big gaps
0:29:44because it makes it handles handles modules and namespaces in a way more
0:29:50naturally in Objective C it makes the API contracts a little more clear the
0:29:55code more maintainable so we're very comfortable objective season namespace
0:30:01management was more or less let's just all agree to put unique initial right
0:30:07that it's amazing it's taken us this far but yes yes that is basically when the
0:30:12answer here so yes exactly it is you know I don't think I don't think maybe
0:30:18the bar wasn't that high exactly we have halted over it how do you manage as as
0:30:23the cheap mofo in charge of all this how do how do you manage the enthusiasm that
0:30:29you could we have for swift and and the word to me seems to like a sincere
0:30:33belief that Swift is the way forward with the necessary conservative news
0:30:39that you need you know so that there still has to be a lot of objective see
0:30:43written how aggressive can you be about putting teams on sure go ahead and do
0:30:48that swept you know it's it's it's really mean people here are idealistic
0:30:54yet really pragmatic and I think you see that as a as an apple characteristic in
0:31:00in many many elements of of what we what we do and so teams know with the nature
0:31:06of of what we're trying to get done in their area any given year the nature of
0:31:10their code base whether Swift is the right answer for them or where it's the
0:31:17right answer even teams where for one reason or the other they can't jump
0:31:23right on Objective C or rather subject to see conversion to Swift now they then
0:31:29you Swift heavily for writing all the unit test which is great because then at
0:31:35least as they're introducing new API's they're experiencing their own API's in
0:31:39swift
0:31:41and leaving on you know sort of serving their own dog food in that regard we do
0:31:46have some constraints internally which which were dressing but because we may
0:31:54be made the something in our closet a little bit but we we still support
0:31:57running 32 bit apps on the Mac and the 32 bit runtime doesn't actually supports
0:32:03with right now and so what that means is if we've implemented a framework that's
0:32:09available to 32 bit code we actually can write it and swift and that code of that
0:32:19framework is used across iOS and OS 10 as many other frameworks are that
0:32:24introduces a little stumbling block as well so you know teams recognize what's
0:32:28practical and what's not practical and find ways to use with wherever they can
0:32:32is no no shortage of of enthusiastic I this has been so geeky and so far the
0:32:43best possible way I I really enjoyed I loved my eyesight did a whole round of
0:32:48interviews last week and I read them all and I don't want to cover the same
0:32:52ground and I don't think we did I think this is this is truly truly eye-opening
0:32:56to me and i really appreciate your time but I really appreciate the openness is
0:33:03there anything else you want to say before before we wrap up the segment
0:33:06anything else you want to talk about with swift I just wanna say how you know
0:33:12to to to the world or at least the subset of the world that listens to your
0:33:15podcast which must be most of them that how how proud I am of the team that's
0:33:20made swift possible reports there's Chris Lattner buddies is part of an
0:33:25incredible team with with folks like Ted criminal conduct Gregor and even people
0:33:31Swift is what we have an incredible compiler team we've also got people who
0:33:36have been writing deep frameworks and apps with an Apple 444 in some cases
0:33:44since the beginning of next step
0:33:46I mean people like Ali Ozer you may know from his talks at watc
0:33:50has been so vital in shaping the language and how the language with its
0:33:55are frameworks and fits the needs of our developers and I'm just so thrilled with
0:33:59the work that all of them do in the passion that they put into making swift
0:34:03to success I just want to get that out there for everyone because we're in
0:34:08their hundreds hundreds more behind them an incredible effort by our team would
0:34:15you agree with this would I think that Apple is in a unique position to achieve
0:34:22what you guys have set out to do which is to make it like the default language
0:34:26that people might learn to program on for the next few decade
0:34:30unique position to make that happen because you have these platforms
0:34:34specially iOS but the Mac the watch anything else that might be coming in
0:34:39the future TV TV TV TV that are so popular under such a draw that they've
0:34:49made Objective C you know like the second or third most popular programming
0:34:54language on some of these you know the lists of YA books people which i think
0:34:58the Someone Like You has been you know was started in the next days you know
0:35:02with you would have found out that in the year 2015 Objective C is second most
0:35:07popular language you believed it right
0:35:11a language that there's some initial reluctance of people to you know to get
0:35:15on board with now there's this language that is so approachable and and really
0:35:20almost has text level you know when you're talking about like hello world
0:35:24type stuff really almost looks like pure pseudocode yeah that Apple is in the
0:35:30unique position where the draw is there with the platforms to really really make
0:35:35this exploding popularity consider any better I i think we we when we created
0:35:45swift we what we wanted it of course to be a great language we also from the
0:35:51outset want it to be a great language for
0:35:54for our platforms and the fact that it and and embody the lessons that we
0:36:00learned from creating so many deep frameworks and great apps over so many
0:36:05years and what that man is on day one swift was what what wasn't a restart for
0:36:12the community it wasn't a hey will let me learn a whole new set of frameworks
0:36:16on the way for Apple to create a whole new set of frameworks Swift has been
0:36:19this this automatic transmission for people who wanted to maybe who are new
0:36:24to our platform and one to get started the whole world was open to them our
0:36:27platform and I think that's been so huge to driving the energy around it and then
0:36:33others have been drawn in just by the greatness of swift as it is I mean it's
0:36:37amazing the script language conferences where people talking about different
0:36:40functional programming paradigms and swift and all these different things you
0:36:44can do with the language just based on what an amazing new language it is so
0:36:47you bring those two communities together and it's it's magic right now thank you
0:36:54so much Craig I really appreciate the time yeah thank you john so honored to
0:37:00speak with you so thank you so much that I miss him you know what
0:37:09since that ran has the first segment I might as well just jump right into a
0:37:15sponsor read which I was definitely not going to do middle of the correct
0:37:19battery totally should he would have just SAT there patiently I feel like I
0:37:26could have done anything he was incredibly gracious it was absolutely I
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0:39:17the price that you would pay for premium mattress at like a retail mattress store
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0:39:59have people probably wondering how did craig Venter et end up on the talk show
0:40:02and what happened was Apple got in touch with me when they started doing the I
0:40:11guess it was a couple of days actually before with the open source and was
0:40:15actually announced on Monday started reaching out to the press they asked
0:40:19whether I'd be interested in having him on the podcast house yeah just let me
0:40:25check my schedule I don't know who might be my ultimate beyond that we can I
0:40:29can't bump him I was like oh yeah and so no real ground rules you know it was
0:40:37very similar to 2010 shoulder was on the live show back at the BBC it wasn't a
0:40:41date they wanted questions in advance or anything like that they're only request
0:40:46was you know that it be limited to you know somewhere around twenty minutes or
0:40:50so I think the fact that we went about 30 or 35 minutes probably acceptable in
0:40:57their time limit
0:40:58well I did I was absolutely watching the clock what we talked and I felt like
0:41:03when we were rolling up around 20 it really felt like he was having a good
0:41:06time he was very comfortable and I think that was definitely did you know apple
0:41:10peels concern would be you know they want to limit his exposure in case it
0:41:14was not comfortable which i think is reasonable
0:41:18yeah I wonder if they would cut you off like nothing you wanna run that
0:41:22experiment but they said you know we gotta wrap this up or more questions
0:41:28probably cuz you know Bill Evans from was listening in and was there so I i
0:41:36would suspect that if I went nuts and just kept him hanging you probably
0:41:39woulda texted me or something like that like button friendly yeah just talking
0:41:46about open sourcing swift and how bad again right to just talk about
0:41:49programming a couple of nerds having a conversation
0:41:52yea well I'll tell you I would love to hear your thoughts on the interview
0:41:56because in this is really you know I'm telling you right now you were my just
0:42:00the right term
0:42:01my spirit animal going into the interview I thought okay twenty or
0:42:05thirty minutes in my mind if if if I can make Syracuse a half happy with this
0:42:11interview then I'll consider my job but that type of your stuff I think because
0:42:16they've got Craig making the rounds to the tech press to talk about open source
0:42:21with you know essentially what his job is doing that press tour to its to tell
0:42:28everyone how great is that during this thing right
0:42:31well i i would say to vote first to tell you about how great Swift is and then
0:42:36second is how great it is that they're making it open source right but like his
0:42:42job on that press tour is not to do what I think a lot of people might want out
0:42:45of an interview whether it be podcast or text which is especially programmers and
0:42:52especially the direction that you took your interview with Craig getting more
0:42:54technical and everything is people want to have not in a mean way but in a sort
0:42:59of using that old style way an argument about programming guy who is in charge
0:43:04of a really big platform that a lot of people working for like this not like
0:43:09him you want to debate whether I don't know what you wanna talk to the guy
0:43:14who's in charge now finally I get to sort of you know complain about square
0:43:19brackets are tabs vs spaces or my pet peeve in swift or the App Store whatever
0:43:25you like
0:43:27and I think that's more pronounced with Apple people because Apple has in the
0:43:31past tended not to make the important decision makers especially important
0:43:36technical people available to the public in anyway so there was no other venue
0:43:41for you to you know where your grievances like you got to talk to the
0:43:46people who were the most polished the highest level and if your concern was
0:43:49about some minor feature of some framework created by and you couldn't
0:43:55corner someone in a hallway W W C you there was no venue for that so i think i
0:43:59mean that's changing now as as you discussed in the interview but a lot of
0:44:03people might go into this thinking that they're gonna hear like they want to be
0:44:07more adversarial but like it I think I think it's impossible to be adversarial
0:44:11Craig nice person in the universe if he ever yelled at people in meetings you
0:44:15would never know it from saying anything he doesn't like it seems just like a
0:44:20super nice guy there's the attic and upbeat and positive all the time so
0:44:23you're not going to have that with him and be that's not the purpose of the
0:44:26press tour so it's a waste of time for you to do that you use that time much
0:44:30more valuable to engage in interesting conversation that start topping I think
0:44:36he did that is the same way I approach the interviews sure where it's very
0:44:39difficult questions that in theory I would like to ask Mike if I could get
0:44:42them on the stand under oath and make them answer questions there are very
0:44:47interesting questions that I would like to ask that if I did ask and they
0:44:51weren't under oath that I don't think they would answer and I don't want to
0:44:54waste time on questions that they're not going to answer so for example I'm not
0:44:58going to try to pick up his mind about you know whether they need a new kernel
0:45:05a real-time operating system for the car to be a fruitful avenue conversation
0:45:11exactly and in addition to the fact that he obviously isn't going to answer that
0:45:18and we can talk about it and even if I wanted to get cute and say you know
0:45:23theoretically of course you know but you know that there's real time
0:45:26considerations for something like a car that you don't have with these consumer
0:45:29devices like it is not going to get into it and the second thing in addition to
0:45:34wasting precious time is I feel like asking questions like that would
0:45:38immediately raise their shields like wow
0:45:40stupid question that I can't answer now I've gotta be careful that I did you
0:45:44know I want them to feel like hey this is going well and it's they're not
0:45:49necessarily softball questions but that their questions that I this sort of
0:45:53thing I was hoping to talk about the and the thing is in this in this particular
0:45:56rounds with specifically in the open source effort we've seen through their
0:45:59actions they are being much more open with swift and the open-source
0:46:04everything they've ever been before in terms of telling you what they're going
0:46:07to do in the future and having public road maps and during development in the
0:46:10open you kind of brothers up an individual like how this development is
0:46:15out in the open and he and Craig's I'll almost everything but the contrast that
0:46:19you could have you know maybe this would have been put on a defense contractor
0:46:22something like the the Darwin open source release has been open source in
0:46:27the beginning but it just hasn't been developed in the same way and maybe it
0:46:29can't be for a variety of reasons because this is too much
0:46:32proprietary stuff revealing their plans for you know whatever devices and stuff
0:46:37they're they're gonna make in the future but they they're so much more open and
0:46:42he was moribund here saying oh yeah we're going to have these features in
0:46:45this is you know we're gonna have more things like this but I'm WBC rolls
0:46:49around when his any Apple that they would you tell you they're going to have
0:46:53a new battery charger to tell you anything about the future that he was
0:46:58promising specific things but sort of in the vague sort of this is kind of what
0:47:02we're thinking kind of what we're planning because I think it's understood
0:47:05especially within the realm of these elements are things you can see it
0:47:08happening like if it did not available a mystery why you'll see everything will
0:47:12check in every single debate on the mailing list and WC comes around only be
0:47:16ready here it won't and when everyone can see it that no one's gonna be like
0:47:20you promised this thing by WC and we still can do it why you didn't get done
0:47:28or there was debate about how it should be done or whatever it's having that
0:47:33stuff in the open just makes it so much easier to have those conversations that
0:47:36there are no gods is like just you can watch it happening it's not magic right
0:47:40it's not like okay it's early December as promised before the end of the year
0:47:46we've made this thing open source here is the zip file you know with all the
0:47:49source and there's
0:47:51a patchy or whatever and whenever they're using its got an open source
0:47:58license to have at it and here's where we plan to here's our roadmap for the
0:48:02first with 3.0 and then they go into radio silence and in early June WABC we
0:48:08find out whether that matter not like you said from the point from here to
0:48:12there every single day there are going to be these debate coming to me that I
0:48:16mentioned in the interview that the swift evolution mailing list is
0:48:20remarkable because you really have to look at the email addresses to see who's
0:48:24from Apple and who's not because there's really serious and very thoughtful
0:48:28proposals coming from outside Apple and it's very clear that people inside Apple
0:48:33are giving them their full consideration it is truly collaborative relationship
0:48:40right you know eight days into it
0:48:42yeah definitely I'm doing it will calm down a little bit of InAs been
0:48:46tremendous I had to switch to digest format that it was just telling my email
0:48:52and biting into a folder was just too many mail today so I just tried taking
0:48:56the digest version of the traffic will die down a little bit but I used to the
0:49:01old model with the open source like Darwin was that was the big give you a
0:49:05big dump and then I don't know how many people even contributed or even could
0:49:08contribute and then you wouldn't you wouldn't see anything from them until
0:49:13the next major version like I think just the other day they finally put out the
0:49:16Capitan version of the door and open source stuff and so if they come with us
0:49:20big storms dumped even if they had been accepting like feedback if you didn't
0:49:25see anything from Apple and till WWDC it would just be like like typical right
0:49:29only sort of black hole for information like that have discussions with you
0:49:33could say things but you never knew I was going to do you have to sit around
0:49:35and wait and wait and wait and then doing a bunch of slides and people would
0:49:39applaud your not here and it all happens in real time and money I guess the open
0:49:44question is still how often do the people at Apple pushed it changes back
0:49:49up to the repository how much development that's true of any open
0:49:52source thing you can
0:49:52you can have your hero local clone of repository do a bunch of changes to it
0:49:57and not push them back up to the main repository for a while to some degree
0:50:02there has to be development going on an Apple that doesn't immediately get
0:50:07pushed out to the public I mean I know if there's a vetting process involved in
0:50:11that or just the internal coordination of deciding in their particular what
0:50:16they're going to do versus what the community's doing I'm sure they'll never
0:50:20get it just fine but it is just like any other open source thing if there does
0:50:24come a point where the community wants the post about everything in one
0:50:28direction now belongs to put another you can another 24 crore so far from that
0:50:31now now everyone has come by on everyone's excited to be working on
0:50:35Swift's new Swift is this one thing and apples could be the driver seat having
0:50:38invented in having the platform where it's most useful so I think things will
0:50:42be smooth sailing as soon as they can be an open source for the foreseeable
0:50:46future
0:50:46yeah and I think it must help in a certain degree that just about every
0:50:55programming language I know of and certainly all the ones people are
0:50:58passionate about have somebody who you know was the dictator in charge who
0:51:04invented it
0:51:04and infused it with their personal you know here's what I think this
0:51:09programming language you know all the great programming languages to me i i
0:51:13think thats opinionated or origin and Chris Lattner is obviously that
0:51:20individual swift and I think it's very clear both publicly and from what I've
0:51:26heard privately that it was what has happened was always his intention that
0:51:30it would go open source and that it wouldn't you know and it's not like it
0:51:33took this long because there was a debate internally it really was what
0:51:36what Craig said in the interview which was didn't make sense to go open source
0:51:40right out of the bat we had to make you know it's still too liquid you know wait
0:51:43till it solidifies a little bit and then at that point you know it's not a matter
0:51:47of if but when I think was his exact words and I think it really helps it
0:51:51latter was on board with that from the beginning in terms of wanting to have
0:51:55this sort of
0:51:56it's not like it's not like somebody else at Apple is forcing him and his
0:52:00team to participate as well that's the unspoken part of that is like alright so
0:52:06it didn't make sense to go because I was too knew why would it be bad obviously
0:52:11pre one point I was like you have a secret I'm keeping the secret so I can
0:52:16come to WBC is a revenue permalink free 1.0 pre-announcement you can say that's
0:52:22the reason it was a secret and we don't even know if we could do it and we had
0:52:25to decide internally and so that makes it once everybody knows what does that
0:52:29then why is an open source at that point I was new
0:52:33not ready willing to work out why why do you need to work it out why can't you
0:52:36work it out when it's in the open why does it have to be closed source while
0:52:40you're working these things out and I would say that's right now is still by
0:52:43the standards of most other major foreign language still heavily influx of
0:52:46inferred that they're they're ripping out plus + and minus minus at this point
0:52:50thinking about what they're going to do with like you know people proposing new
0:52:54keywords like this is a clear liquid so why are they closed source between the
0:53:00announcement and now and the answers that are pretty obvious like they don't
0:53:04think they need to say that he's always going to supporting an open source
0:53:07project has overhead like it you can work you can go much faster when you
0:53:11don't worry about other people's input that sounds bad and it's like oh you're
0:53:14being there is a lot of overhead especially for companies like Apple in
0:53:19terms of intellectual property and making sure this time do what they open
0:53:23and what's not
0:53:24it's a lot of work to do all the things that are required to be a good
0:53:29maintainer of an open source project and they just you know it would have made
0:53:33them go slower right so now they're at the point where the tradeoff is worth it
0:53:39so they're they're OK with going a little bit slower now across the input
0:53:43is a little more valuable because in the beginning part so much basic stuff then
0:53:47work and then having a compilation of us like you just you just want to hold
0:53:52together is a species of what all can we ship something can we get it working on
0:53:57exco's like the playground crash all the time that's that's basically I would
0:54:04assume the answer that wasn't given their
0:54:06at the gate and during the entire but they were not going to tell you about
0:54:10the details of the internal debate but you can go much faster when you don't
0:54:15have to worry about the outside world's opinions or input and you don't have to
0:54:18support them and you have to maintain you know source repository with clean
0:54:23source code and mailing list and all the other things that go with that I think
0:54:27it's sort of a like a two-step process first step was with one point out this
0:54:37is good enough to show you guys and let you guys start playing even know let's
0:54:42face it you can start working with it will get it into a shape where it's you
0:54:46know you can start using it and I i've been asking around and I do there are
0:54:50you know it's not just an apple there you know real developers it real you
0:54:53know absolutely no people out there you know top apps to borrow a phrase from
0:54:59raiders of the Lost Ark there are top apps that have new parts of it you know
0:55:03maybe not entirely written so that's probably still very rare but new
0:55:07features are being written swept in relapse you know that you're using today
0:55:11but I think stage two is this is where I think ladder and his team thing we had
0:55:17this vision for where we would start with and we're not there yet and this is
0:55:22the point where there's this the fundamental aspects of the language but
0:55:25we're settled on now and now we're willing to start listening to how we can
0:55:29make it better to suit your needs
0:55:30yeah but I think the language is just so young friend in the grand scheme of
0:55:38things it you know I want you like human analogy I can maybe consider up now
0:55:45like it's not you don't need to be held in one of those big tube things they can
0:55:50sit up case falls over a little bit can set up but this is like the best and the
0:55:57worst part because it's kind of like this so much potential but Craig talked
0:56:04about so 3.0 now they're really working on getting the Abia nale down
0:56:08and everything and that's just got to be terrified because you know the standards
0:56:12of binary compatibility that Apple aspires to like with Objective C I think
0:56:16market has brought this up an appt at times like you could have built and I
0:56:19thought out for the original iPhone and and and theory if you stayed to you know
0:56:25still well supported API's the buyer was still run like they don't Apple is not
0:56:30in the habit of breaking backward compatibility for binary libraries and
0:56:35everything that frequently which is surprising for a company that is so gung
0:56:38ho about moving on from the past and harbor designing software design they
0:56:43really good about that stuff down like that i three point is not that far away
0:56:47and it's like you really get one shot at doing this right because it's not going
0:56:52to be another 64 2 30 32 or 64 bit transition for them to use to paper over
0:56:56like they did with like you know the objective see stuff like well we're
0:57:00gonna 3264 gonna break anyway so now's our chance to do something a little bit
0:57:04differently is not going to be a 64 to 128 transition in the foreseeable future
0:57:07so they really have to get their ABI something that doesn't have some
0:57:12terrible mistake that ties the hands in the future and that is supportable 44
0:57:17literally decades maybe not it's not a mistake it's like not like missing some
0:57:23sort of thing that everybody thinks it's ok today but five six seven years ago
0:57:27from now everybody thinks oh man that would be so great if we didn't have that
0:57:31we weren't stuck with that decision or they're going to be some language
0:57:34features that is much more difficult to support with the ABI has designed are
0:57:39you know the way quantum computers work and fifty years is different than a but
0:57:44even just like there's a particular language feature that they like we don't
0:57:47have time to become currency is a great example this with 3.00 like what
0:57:51evolution mailing list and and roadmap or whatever they like language Java
0:57:55concurrency would not plant for 31 2010 have time for just two big feature we're
0:58:00gonna say that as those 3.0 but they're gonna have the ABI nail down so I really
0:58:04hope there's nothing about you know language level concurrency Peters
0:58:08that would be easier to do with a different API not preclude them doing
0:58:13this and I'm assuming like based on past experience that they're looking for an
0:58:18ABI that we really really solid but that's far everything until now has been
0:58:21a communication from from Apple that sarcasm we're gonna break your crap all
0:58:25the time we are not maintained source compatibility where we're adding
0:58:30keywords removing things we're we're changing Harper is working and and their
0:58:34solution to this has been like we're going to use Xcode translate your old
0:58:37code you could hear you but we're not going to support your old code like just
0:58:41forget it because there today don't want to be held back by the passes kind of
0:58:44the nightmare of you know come out with language and then let literally
0:58:50thousands of developers start writing real applications with it and shipping
0:58:53them to customers and then be like oh my god we can never change this part of the
0:58:57language because so many people have always come out there like we just need
0:59:00to be set out to loosen the world now we can never take away plus plus a little
0:59:05break everyone's out samples we know we reserve the right to change this
0:59:09how does mine which looks on the page to make your source code that you think is
0:59:13perfectly good syntactically invalid so it won't even compile and they were
0:59:16gonna manage that is by giving you tools to translate your source code that's one
0:59:20of my favorite changes in the I guess it's the it just came out in this with
0:59:25evolution or maybe the new version is with the day released as they open
0:59:29source to where they got rid of these plus + and minus minus operators and
0:59:33again just to take a big step back and I read the interviews that Federici did
0:59:37with like Mashable and other outlets last week I was happy and have worried
0:59:43cuz I was happy because his interviews with like Ars Technica and and Mashable
0:59:48covered the basics like a foundation of what Apple's official stance was towards
0:59:53this open throwing a swift and I thought that means I don't have to waste time
0:59:56talking about those things with them and we can go deeper but then I thought what
1:00:00if that's all he wants to talk about is this he doesn't wanna get nerdy at all
1:00:03and I was like I kinda want some of the stuff to be a little technical but then
1:00:07the way the interview went absolutely no problem getting him to go technical I
1:00:12just worried now that it may be a little bit over
1:00:15over people's heads for everybody listens to the show and so just as one
1:00:20example on over explained that the plus + minus minus operators are one it very
1:00:24easy for even an unprogrammed understand and in every language Jesus I know if
1:00:29since you've been able to take a variable it's a the variables accident X
1:00:34is an integer and it's currently equal to four if you write your source code X
1:00:39plus plus that turns the variable 25 just add one to the to the variable and
1:00:47I never really given a lot of thought to it but I get seems like every language
1:00:51just about every see style syntax language sense has taken out and kept it
1:00:57and swift had it and then we're going I was like we're going to get rid of it
1:01:03and here's why and I thought the explanation for why was terrifically
1:01:06Cochin you know as I get that sort of like unreadable and you can be a lot
1:01:12easier to just you know exit + equals one you know it's 120 there's the the
1:01:19nuances of post post a comment and protect plus plus tax versus X plus
1:01:24costs which means different things in different languages including C Python
1:01:28by the way doesn't have minus minus and this is a great example of a language
1:01:33feature that they're changing based on a proposal for essentially cultural
1:01:38reasons cultural and human factors reasons not not technical not like
1:01:44performance or interoperability with Objective C you're the best but for the
1:01:48ability to do something that you previously couldn't do this is purely
1:01:52its user interface for programming would essentially it does this contract cause
1:01:59more problems than it solves how much longer is plus two equals 1 vs plus +
1:02:04pre and post really get rid of that because that is very confusing but
1:02:08you're like well you know so common as you noted in so many other languages but
1:02:16we keep that just because it's an idiom that people are familiar with and then
1:02:19the debate if you can look through this
1:02:20was like well in what context do you find yourself wanting to do that well
1:02:24when I do a for loop and I say you know I 0 I less than whatever I plus + and
1:02:29then the Swiss dancers we don't want people doing this kind of want to have a
1:02:33way to iterate over collections more naturally so if we say you don't have to
1:02:37do a classic style for loop when do you think you can use the plus + you know
1:02:43and so that's a debate goes and this is the level they're talking about that's
1:02:46why services at all the little baby they can barely sit up at this point because
1:02:49they're still considering fundamental things like anything or should this baby
1:02:53house right and you know it's gonna be a biped should have fuhrman not like
1:02:57that's nothing level they're they're debating this point I think it's
1:03:02wonderful because the worst thing in the world that can happen is the very early
1:03:06decisions made by a very small group of people not exposed to the wider world to
1:03:10become cemented and become unchangeable and to say this is it and we can't
1:03:15change just because it's too late because too many people are programming
1:03:17unless you get everything perfect on your first try but you never ever will
1:03:21all you're doing is like baking in the war you know nice for the language to
1:03:26have time to grow and change and make mistakes and learn from them then become
1:03:30a different language eventually than it was this year last year to take another
1:03:37step back to see glossary as we go for non-programmers the ABI the binary Apple
1:03:46is that what are they behaving stamp application binary right
1:03:50that is effectively so source code is in a text file you write your swift in a
1:03:57text file it goes into the compiler and the compiler turns it into the binary
1:04:02output so the doc appt the the little actual executable inside the data bundle
1:04:07that's the binary or if it's a framework or library it's the compiled code that
1:04:11the machine read natively and what they're promising is that Swift 3.0
1:04:15which is scheduled for I think they say late 2016 which I sort of interpret I
1:04:20read between the lines Mac OS 10 ten-point 12 probably and I S 10 that
1:04:32it's good you know at that from that point forward that binary interface is
1:04:35going to be compatible with future version 456 going forward and they're
1:04:40like you said that you know high-stakes to commit that yeah and it is most
1:04:47important for someone like Apple makes a bunch of libraries they should put their
1:04:50machines in your binaries know how to call into those libraries how to how to
1:04:54call the function defined functions and how to call them how to present the
1:04:58arguments of those functions expect where they get the return value from all
1:05:02those little details that are right now have been in flux and they have to mail
1:05:07them down so that your ship your binary they'll ship their libraries and then
1:05:11they'll come over the new version of the OS and if you don't revise your
1:05:14application you want to still work you don't have to recompile it every time
1:05:17that you know that's what they changed the FBI would mean that people have to
1:05:20recompile their stuff and historically speaking out on that on iOS and is
1:05:24rarely done and I was 10 and 32 64 bit transitions are great time to require
1:05:29that because you're like well your application will keep working but
1:05:32eventually we're not even going to support you know thirty two-bit max
1:05:36anymore so we're just gonna be 64 bit from now on in your application will
1:05:40stage a digo system if you don't updated if you updated hey guess what you got to
1:05:43recompile anyway no big deal
1:05:45what was the gist of what he was talking about there were some about what why
1:05:50when I was asking where they're using swift internally and one of the things
1:05:53that they were they holding them up and kiddie kampus which the swift
1:05:57is that they need to support 32 bit on Mac OS 10 yeah I couldn't tell whether
1:06:04that was just a sly allusion to the fact that 32 bit support is going away
1:06:09everywhere that it hasn't you know any any remaining holdouts 32 bit support
1:06:14will be disappearing and they've been doing it over the years just going 64
1:06:17bit everywhere they possibly can adjust when they can stop supporting entirely
1:06:21the other option is to work with a 32 bit things right right now Swift is 64
1:06:26bit only as far as I know yeah and there's no reason they couldn't make it
1:06:32work with 32 bit like you know where they could but is it worth it so it's
1:06:36just a question of I just shutting that door and when is it safe for them to
1:06:41shut that door
1:06:42you know in terms of backward compatibility when I called you know the
1:06:45iOS devices going 64 bit you can still run 32 bit out there but you don't want
1:06:49to have both 32 bit and 64 bit apps running on your device at the same time
1:06:52he's got a lot two versions all libraries into memory and everything's
1:06:55there are lots of good reasons to just forget about 32 and I guess I just let
1:06:59it age out of the ecosystem that's what I would imagine Apple would do but he's
1:07:04talking about the past in terms of what role as holding people back
1:07:07here's where it would really help if we had a chat room but the question is just
1:07:12popped into my head now and therefore did not do any research before the show
1:07:15is i am guessing this is true I'm getting watch OS is 64 bit only and TV
1:07:21OS almost certainly is 64 bit only there's absolutely no reason why the TV
1:07:26OS would have 32 bit sport since the first device that TV OS runs on is it
1:07:3064 bit device so on TV OS and I'm guessing watch OS it's probably possible
1:07:36to go
1:07:37swift frameworks and libraries in the operating system and even know it was
1:07:45good to have a fair amount even know how to use a a and the first department was
1:07:52a seven
1:07:55yeah I like I said I would imagine the way forward is the problem not to waste
1:08:00his time on 32 bit but who knows like it depends on which road map I can you grab
1:08:05those things out and say when can we finally got dropped 32 bit support both
1:08:08practically speaking in like politically speaking not knowing our partners or
1:08:12whatever you may like 32 games right with someone like rebuilding 464 when
1:08:17can we do that when is it safe and the question is when do we want to really
1:08:21start ramping up the ramp up to 432 because away may be able to put in the
1:08:27work to do 30 bit more but it only seems like the Apple move to just be like so
1:08:32it is going to hasten the demise of anything
1:08:34supporting 64 bit just seems to me that anything new from Mike at least from
1:08:41when they 750 shipped from that point forward it just seems like anything that
1:08:46doesn't have legacy support is 64 bit only so you know from both from new
1:08:51platform perspective like watchin TV too swift itself that you know if it's a new
1:08:56language that came out in 2014
1:09:01why in the world would it have 32 bit supported you know anchored to the past
1:09:06yeah same thing for new frameworks of their writing new frameworks using so
1:09:09asked with only free markets with native framework so that they're rerunning
1:09:13foundation and swift you know like rubber for new stuff where there is no
1:09:16there is no nonce with version of this library with them they wanted a brand
1:09:21new library maybe it's a big new library that's going to be a tentpole feature of
1:09:25a future wEDC and tell people how to use it
1:09:27if it's with only and so it doesn't 2:30 to 4:30 bit no 32 bit apps can use this
1:09:34thing unless they're gonna bend over backwards to do some crazy way for the
1:09:39you know the libraries to bridge from 32 to 64 bit yes I just think it's all 64
1:09:44going forward and and what he was giving you a glimpse into things that happened
1:09:48already gone through like why are devising everybody else was really young
1:09:52so it doesn't support 32 bit there are reasons that teens inside Apple may be
1:09:56interested in swift could use it cuz it just wasn't practically doesn't was
1:10:00impractical that point but it becomes more practical everyday I really I
1:10:04thought one of the most astute things he said was my transcript here i mean
1:10:09people here are idealistic
1:10:12really pragmatic and I think you see that as an apple characteristic in many
1:10:16many many elements of what we do and I really do think that I think that that's
1:10:20almost
1:10:22idealistic yet really pragmatic gets to the heart of what I like best about
1:10:28Apple you know in the long run and overall and I feel and I feel like that
1:10:34really exemplifies it in terms of sure we're really excited about swift and be
1:10:38fun to be writing more but we've gotta write an awful lot of new stuff still in
1:10:41Objective C for these very very pragmatic reasons
1:10:45yeah this is the overarching like you may be excited about swift but there's
1:10:49sort of a company cultural imperative to for example not break binary
1:10:55compatibility without a good reason because it's bad for the platform and it
1:11:01is any possible way you can avoid it like it's it's bad for the ecosystem
1:11:05that makes developers angry and just get a certain number of those and you don't
1:11:11want to like it cash I'm just gonna win right so even though people may be very
1:11:16excited about using this new technology if there is an overriding concern you no
1:11:21larger than your little project larger than your little feature your
1:11:24application or whatever it is you're doing inside Apple and the dictators you
1:11:28can't use it because you need is for 32 bit or 32 bit because we're committed to
1:11:33operating biocompatibility until
1:11:36big company-wide decision happens at a level way above your pay grade and only
1:11:40then the idealistic and pragmatic as an organization yes but like within the
1:11:45organization I imagine is distributed where are you go down in the org chart
1:11:49the more people are inclined to be idealistic amounted to something crazy
1:11:51in new and how are you going there are two more people have to be pragmatic and
1:11:55there's a bigger picture here and even though you may be excited to use it on
1:11:57your little project we decided to tap when it's time to do these big moves
1:12:02that are gonna impact again literally thousands of developers and thousands to
1:12:07millions of that money money think about it I don't even know anything about a
1:12:12possible one of the areas I wanted to get in when I found out it was nice one
1:12:18of the things it was nice about this interview was that I knew about it at
1:12:23least a week in advance is actually a little bit more than a week in advance
1:12:25by the time you know we found a date that works for both of us and so I felt
1:12:31like I had plenty of time to prepare which is great and so one of the ways
1:12:35that I prepared I went to people who know a lot about programming than I do
1:12:40and it specifically a lot more about programming for Apple platforms that I
1:12:43do and you know trying to get some questions and one of the things I asked
1:12:48about but you know that and I knew this but I was interesting hearing it from
1:12:52developer friends is this whole angled that Swift is not just Objective C with
1:12:58a modern friendly syntax it is a very different language with very different
1:13:02primary priorities and there are certainly some things it certainly looks
1:13:11better and it certainly is a much more approachable syntax and I feel like at a
1:13:15fundamental level that's basically why there's so much excitement around Swift
1:13:18is there's a lot of people who do just took one look at or take one look at
1:13:24Objective C and they're like I don't get it and then they take a look at swift
1:13:27and are like wow that looks like the language I already know whether it's
1:13:30Javascript or you know C or
1:13:34I don't know even even Java to some degree maybe you know it's a lot more
1:13:38similar to those style languages that is subject to see but there are things
1:13:43about Objective C and the way that the next now cocoa and Cocoa Touch remarks
1:13:50you know all these things that drive from from the next origins the way these
1:13:54frameworks take advantage of the dynamic aspects of objective see that people who
1:13:58are really good at it people who've been writing for these frameworks for a long
1:14:02time love and swift sort of isn't really what they were looking for
1:14:07next-generation language and I thought his answer that surprised me I mean it
1:14:14was it was a message in terms of like dynamic things that people want to do
1:14:20with Objective C will eventually be possible that they're not now and if
1:14:23this is an ongoing thing and they're working on an idea and essentially all
1:14:27the dynamism which is where the light is on the dynamism that that that Apple
1:14:31thinks is important will be available in swift without the downside that he also
1:14:35won over extensive gotta pay for that all the time
1:14:37yeah I thought that was interesting and I thought it was I'm not sure I guess I
1:14:43kind of was worried that he would . question instead it seemed like he drove
1:14:47right into it and it's obvious so obvious from his answer that they have
1:14:51discussed this internally extensively well this is an interesting time for
1:14:56swift because a lot of things that have been said troops with from the beginning
1:15:00are now starting to come become come more into the public consciousness
1:15:04mostly because more people are using it more people are aware that it even
1:15:07exists as excited as we all wear whatever was two years ago to see swift
1:15:10at WWDC it's not really thing for people
1:15:16broadly speaking until you know a certain point like can actually use us
1:15:20tonight I wasn't mad cops ok then it becomes one little thing in the open
1:15:23source is the next level like hey this is maybe a menace to the entire world of
1:15:28programmers right and so now a lot of people are looking at swift and they're
1:15:32going to I think I started realizing things that have been true but from the
1:15:36very beginning you mentioned the syntax thing which is kind of a sideshow
1:15:39because the sin taxes you know even those things people notice when you look
1:15:44at it
1:15:45and there is a certain I don't like a flavor as you can tell I feel like a
1:15:52modern thinkers this year old in the weirdest does it look like you mentioned
1:15:55it doesn't look like JavaScript as a look like whatever language the kids are
1:15:58learning these days right but that is mostly not important
1:16:03some aspect would be hard to keep up with the Joneses and not look like a
1:16:06really old but then the other aspect of it in terms of the language itself is
1:16:11how many things to have to worry about an Objective C asks developers to worry
1:16:15about things used to be for arc ask them to to worry about memory manager what
1:16:19they had to call retaining release and to a modern young programmer that just
1:16:24seems barbaric because I guess it would be coming from you know I guess
1:16:29javaScript is a great example is not a web stuff and jobs jobs everywhere but
1:16:33even things like sharp or a job on the server just as barbaric have to deal
1:16:38with that or to have direct access to memory with pointers and then art made
1:16:41that a little bit better but still like what are all these asterisks all over
1:16:44the place doesn't really make any sense I don't know if you don't know see I
1:16:47think you know a surprising number of developers now find that there you know
1:16:53if you're a GUI application developer the reasons for you to know see to
1:16:57figure out how to make a sheet come up on some pushes the button like there's
1:17:01not a lot of those and it just seems like why don't have to worry about all
1:17:03this crap so from the developer's perspective Swift is exciting because
1:17:09like I wanna make an IRS that because I was absent cool and I like iPhones and
1:17:12other stuff but it's kind of annoying that I gotta worry about all this stuff
1:17:16and services now you not to worry about that stuff anymore and the syntax look
1:17:20nice used to and so that is the the public face of sweatin' excitement over
1:17:24finally a more modern language both in terms of appearance in athletics but
1:17:30also in terms of how many things do I have to be concerned with when writing a
1:17:34program that seem to me to be beneath the concern of me as like a programmer
1:17:40and I think a lot of that is historical in terms of when languages serious
1:17:46primary example so much as as you know if you draw the family tree of
1:17:51programming languages there's an awful lot
1:17:53of languages that derived from sea and in that era
1:17:58you know I guess what late sixties early seventies when she was invented the
1:18:05first edition of Kantar was like 1971 so late sixties early seventies the
1:18:13computers are so incredibly slow I mean just a mind-bogglingly slowed by our
1:18:18standards today you know it you know like the whole entire apollo mission was
1:18:23done with less computing power than Apple watch as I mean that's just
1:18:26ridiculous and so you needed please every single cycle of the CPU that you
1:18:31could and that meant being as a programmer writing that is incredibly
1:18:35low level where you're you know you know managing all the memory by hand because
1:18:40if it works then it's incredibly efficient and then if it doesn't work
1:18:43you just have to fix it fix the boats but like to retain released up is a
1:18:48perfect example of that where it's you know and I know when they first started
1:18:53trying to go away from it and it was funny because it's an interesting
1:18:56example of Apple you know going down an alley and then a deciding against it
1:19:01which was at some point in the last decade they introduced garbage
1:19:05collection to cocoa
1:19:08pretty sure it was like any early years of burt run was definitely after a
1:19:14minute left and I know there is a lot of reluctance from people who got it and
1:19:21people who didn't have at least didn't think they had problems dealing with the
1:19:24manual retain release memory management didn't like garbage collection at all
1:19:29and it turns out
1:19:30Appleton like it either eventually got rid of it you know all the people who
1:19:34thought I was finally this garbage collection like one of the big reasons
1:19:38to even consider garbage collectors just like I said you know i'm Jack Dorsey
1:19:44started to look old and crappy why do I have to worry so much about memory when
1:19:47program for this pipeline make the platform feel feel older and more
1:19:51primitive and less capable I can program for Android or Windows or whatever and I
1:19:56don't have to worry about this and like really I just want to make my appt right
1:19:59I want to decide I want to write the code that's going to make my appt do the
1:20:03things my app doesn't care about memory like can't just take care of that for me
1:20:06and so the only reason they go down the garbage collection by the cycle here is
1:20:11one way we can make people not have to worry about retaining they said it was
1:20:14like well you put in there retains their leases but they won't do anything or
1:20:17whatever and garbage collection for a variety of reasons was difficult to go
1:20:22with objective scenes in particular because it is
1:20:25percent of C and because it's very difficult for garbage collector to know
1:20:28enough information about the CAS parts of your program which may be right in
1:20:32the Objective C or maybe in data that's coming out of C libraries to know enough
1:20:36to do the right thing with that stuff and so it was kind of not technically
1:20:41infeasible but like never completely closed solution we could be like I feel
1:20:45like a hundred percent of the time we will do the right thing here and you
1:20:50know and and eventually they they launched it was out there you could use
1:20:54it they don't put it on some teams that eventually pulled it back right and this
1:20:57was getting up before with like things that have been true but with the
1:21:00beginning there is now going to be coming in
1:21:02to the public eye the other aspects with setting aside the syntax and the
1:21:06modernization in terms of look at this language that does more modern thing
1:21:10that lets the developers not worry about the things I'm not worried about it and
1:21:14express themselves in a more compact elegant form just just solving the
1:21:18problem then when I saw you mentioned look more like pseudocode that's because
1:21:21you're not consider code you're not concerned with the little details like
1:21:24here's the algorithm here's here roughly the steps I don't want to be concerned
1:21:28about the details on it does all that but the other thing that's been about
1:21:32this is an interesting contrast to what you just mentioned about like see being
1:21:35made in the day when computers were slow and it was discussed by Craig as well
1:21:39and talk about the the just-in-time compilers the jet and everything it is
1:21:44essentially a bet against a virtual machines with with garbage recycling
1:21:50garbage collectors right it is a bet against the things that java does and C
1:21:54sharp and you know and drive which is Delta Virtual Machine
1:21:58are all the Java JavaScript engines that run on our web browser's JavaScript is
1:22:02in a tough spot because it's like they're stuck finding a way to make
1:22:06JavaScript fast business everywhere in web browsers and no really controls that
1:22:09platform and so that's why we had to put all his brain parenting JavaScript fast
1:22:14but the garbage collectors was going more in that direction but as you
1:22:20mentioned in the description of sweat the small saucepan from like an
1:22:23operating system up to like a scripting system when you get down to low level
1:22:27you can't have a garbage collector doing things
1:22:30unpredictable things that unpredictable times and even if it's predictable you
1:22:34can have the garbage go to like take these pauses to walk your trees of
1:22:38things to find out what needs to be collected even you know there's a lot of
1:22:41great technology and the job world making garbage collectors don't induce
1:22:45pauses and are are more predictable but nothing is as predictable as something
1:22:50that is entirely deterministic like arc something that is determined at compile
1:22:54time with their put in that potentially putting the returns in releases for you
1:22:58and there's debate as to whether there are you know theoretically can garbage
1:23:03collection approach the reliability and performance characteristics needed for
1:23:07the kernel of an operating system I think Microsoft has had various projects
1:23:10to try to make a sort of memory manage operating system or whatever but Swift
1:23:14is about heavily in the other direction and this bet was made when are came out
1:23:18for Objective C not so much of its west but it
1:23:21doubling down aspect is that to make a language that fulfills the goals set out
1:23:25for swift we have to not have this virtual machine and garbage collection
1:23:31that does all the stuff we have to do we have to basically nail things down more
1:23:36figure things out at compile time make everything about a deterministic only
1:23:40then will it become possible to match both the performance and the start of
1:23:46the predictability of C code so you can write your operating system kernel your
1:23:50audio subsystem or I don't know you real-time operating system for your car
1:23:54we'll see about that but but you can write that type of code without
1:23:57wondering when you know when the garbage collector is going to pause for a second
1:24:03to walk some tree or when something's gonna get collector how much memory is
1:24:06gonna be available at any given time based on the collector and paste code
1:24:09ran before you called into this code or even when you're running on a modern
1:24:13computer that is very fast and maybe that pause isn't even a full second
1:24:17maybe it's just you know two hundred milliseconds but a fraction of a second
1:24:22in certain contexts that that pause is is just kills the user experience i mean
1:24:30and that's not to bad mouth and right but it's why I mean I've heard from a
1:24:34lot of people that dealing with a garbage collected system is one of the
1:24:36reasons why Android spent years trying to get to what I S users thought was a
1:24:42smooth user interface right from the get-go because the garbage collector
1:24:45would run while you're scrolling list or something like that and you get these
1:24:48little starters are pauses and they were fractions of a second hole second long
1:24:52pause but
1:24:53just little fraction of a second and in the real-time situation if it's some
1:24:58kind of camera based thing running on a car or something like that you really
1:25:01don't want to have an unpredictable even fifth of a second pause and I have
1:25:07possibly collectors but the whole point is if you give up pausing essentially
1:25:10what you're doing is having it in the general case having something like
1:25:14reference counting happening in a small case like this generational collectors
1:25:17and long livers are short lived objects like you can you can avoid possible to
1:25:21avoid poisoning you basically built up garbage and it is also mentioned by
1:25:25Craig the idea that they can run like a kind of excuse of how was it around
1:25:31their house devices there they can fit their stack they get their operating
1:25:36system and there are libraries in a smaller memory footprint but they say
1:25:40they probably that you know what
1:25:42reading from the is thinking alike but different area for a footprint than some
1:25:46of our competitors who languages don't have these characteristics like Android
1:25:50devices because they built it too much garbage that's basically a choice you
1:25:54have you there something has to decide which memory is available for use with
1:26:00which memory are we done with and we can use again for something else which
1:26:03memory is still in use and park does that by you know and park which
1:26:07underlies the objective CNC does that by as it runs it says I'm using this now
1:26:11it's available now I'm using this now available now if you like in the code
1:26:15path along with executing code and garbage collection is I just plow
1:26:18bravely poet and something else the garbage collector occasionally figures
1:26:22out what is available for everybody else and what isn't hopefully you can do that
1:26:25without disturbing the other guys planning bravely forward but sometimes
1:26:28you have to stop him from going into a possibly one that doesn't stop the
1:26:33ongoing code to figure out what's available it has to necessarily be you
1:26:36know leave some stuff on the floor and say I'm not sure if this is a news yet I
1:26:40can't find out without stopping that the guy that's running over there so I'm
1:26:43just gonna leave it off the side but what about down to is you never know
1:26:48based on you know you got us two things the collector and the program you never
1:26:52know at any given point when I'm at this point in the code how much memory is
1:26:55gonna be available in in this process the collector on here and then maybe
1:27:00it'll be here but the collectors behind is running on a different course maybe
1:27:02this will be available whenever
1:27:04and you just end up with a little bit of extra garbage and the overhead of the
1:27:07virtual machine south and all that stuff before you get into like executing by
1:27:11code like Java does vs native and all that stuff with and our objective see
1:27:15our bet heavily against the virtual machines like Java Virtual Machine and
1:27:20certainly nothing like the jet craziness that we had to do for JavaScript to make
1:27:24that fast
1:27:25garbage collection the analogy works and so I can see why that stock as the
1:27:30terminology but you know like any any analogy breaks down at a certain level
1:27:35and in the real world the garbage that you keep in philadelphia we've garbage
1:27:41collected once a week
1:27:43the garbage you know the fact that by tuesday we've got six days of garbage in
1:27:49the house isn't a problem because we don't generate that much garbage in the
1:27:52just sits tied up and bags in our garage whereas on a computing device
1:27:58uncollected garbage is taking memory and memory is a precious resource it's
1:28:04almost like you're gonna studio apartment uncollected garbage
1:28:08yeah and i think is a good garbage collectors take advantage of this a try
1:28:13to be smart about the tight loop and inside this loop I do something with
1:28:17some amount of memory from the next iteration totally done with it I don't
1:28:21need a new set of memory I just keep using that same region of memory over
1:28:24and over again this time I don't need to allocate and get rid of it like I just
1:28:28need to know say I'm using it ok now I'm done I'm using it I'm done using it and
1:28:33I'm done rather just creating a new i picking up every time a very naive
1:28:37old-style garbage materially are you making any time you need some memories
1:28:40that I got that member of the divers are you going to make it to the next
1:28:44iteration loop in the garbage but rather run yet it's like oh you're making a new
1:28:47I remember that object and a programmer manually managing member would never
1:28:52like a look at the Maritime got the memory from the old office I'm done with
1:28:55it I'm not using it anymore
1:28:57take this right and so a good programmer might not leave all running the code
1:29:02that was written with this is the problem that they really primitive
1:29:05garbage collectors back in the day in the garden has become smarter and
1:29:09smarter we can divide the world into objects short-lived and objects to hang
1:29:14around for a long time but slightly different pools about these short-lived
1:29:17on fixing the ones that hang around and let's try to you know what you're trying
1:29:21to do is get to the point where if you gave this to you know if you get this to
1:29:25an assembly language programming you should the assembly language they
1:29:28wouldn't look at it and go this is the stupidest code is incredibly wasteful of
1:29:32resources you know you want to look at and go oh oh yeah no that's that's
1:29:36pretty much as efficiently as you could have written it like I'm you're not
1:29:39allocating tons of memory and then leaving it allocated and not reusing it
1:29:45because you don't know that you can look at it and say what I can tell this
1:29:49memory is never access the NYU keeping it around while the garbage that he
1:29:53doesn't know
1:29:53so this is kind of a philosophical debate can garbage collection ever be
1:29:53so this is kind of a philosophical debate can garbage collection ever be
1:30:00efficient and as predictable as manual memory management and arc and what I
1:30:06realized you know swift and Objective C with arc is fair to say we're going to
1:30:11try to automate the part where we say retain this do stuff with it released it
1:30:15retain this new stuff with the release it so the developer is not the right of
1:30:19it so that the compiler right to sue them if you were to look at the assembly
1:30:22code we can see a predictable pattern because there is some overhead doing all
1:30:26those you know a bumping up to retain counts and releasing like that's in your
1:30:31running code the code of the guard childhood doesn't need to do it doesn't
1:30:34need income and retain counsel you may retain counsel can just run because it
1:30:37knows the garbage collectors gonna take care of that and so the bed with arc and
1:30:41swift is it is more efficient and predictable to do that work in line
1:30:45because then we know exactly when that work will be done and we can do we can
1:30:49be smarter about it like we can in the in the binary that we generate look at
1:30:54it and say are we being smart doing stupid here versus it running the
1:30:57garbage collector like well now there's two things in place there's the program
1:31:00and as the garbage collector and the program looks ok in terms of what is
1:31:04doing semantically but how will the garbage collector interact with us how
1:31:08would deal with the memory and Latino went to make it available for reuse or
1:31:12whatever I don't know if I'll be able to find it I did I remember reading on that
1:31:19website cora remember reading on Quora page where somebody asked why do Android
1:31:24devices tend to ship with so much more RAM that iOS devices and like the top
1:31:28voted answer was and who wrote it but it was more lies you know that because
1:31:33Android is garbage collected at effectively job aids its Java running in
1:31:38Google's handmade ripoff of Jabba I'm sure there's no way you can convince
1:31:50everybody this end and I do think there is a factor in this where Apple just
1:31:54wants to use less RAM because it's cheaper and they save money and this is
1:31:58one of the ways that they get to you know 38 39 percent profit margins
1:32:04but there really is a factor there that from an effective standpoint like
1:32:08Android device that ships with three gigs RAM has about as much effective RAM
1:32:14for the use the user using device as an iOS device with 1 gigabyte of RAM and
1:32:19this is like this before you even consider the idea of like bytecode
1:32:22although Apple's going that direction with its bigger thing but not quite but
1:32:25anyway the idea in the Java Virtual Machine or any kind of virtual machine
1:32:29that you but you produced is binary code for the virtual machine and the virtual
1:32:35machine is this hypothetical thing that is not your actual CPU and then the
1:32:40virtual machine itself will will execute that code natively on the CPU like so
1:32:45that the ideal job is like how you can make this one Java bytecode application
1:32:48and send it to an x86 device that a PowerPC devised an output device and
1:32:52this same quarter of binary because it's bytecode will run all of them because
1:32:56they all have Java virtual machines and the job of ultra voter machines like
1:32:59skewed natively on the individual platforms but you just have won by an
1:33:03area that was the write once run anywhere type of thing for
1:33:07I'm not sure the dalvik designers of it I think they have think they might code
1:33:12but either way like the idea of a machine as you have a you don't have a
1:33:16real target architecture you have a virtual machine and that's what your
1:33:19your code to and then you have to eventually get to native code that is
1:33:22just more stuff between you and seeing how this is going to actually execute on
1:33:26your actual hardware and I do think that's a keen observation that the whole
1:33:30segment of the show that that Swift is a bet that there is something better
1:33:36there's a better way to to better way to get all the advantages of those garbage
1:33:40collected virtual machines and avoid all of the overhead and that he met the
1:33:46medicine in the bed like any theoretical computer science debate about is that
1:33:50theoretically possible to have a positive garbage like there are
1:33:54advantages to the garbage but it doesn't have to have that inline code that
1:33:57messes with you know memory management in in the actual execution the program
1:34:01you can just go forward as fast as they can and if the government cut their
1:34:05could do its job and keep up with it in just over there would be great but the
1:34:08other part of this is like the idea
1:34:12that computing power not just like CPU power whatever but if you were to grab
1:34:19anything having to do with computing power in terms of how fast commit to
1:34:22memory how much memory do we have what is the single threaded into your
1:34:25performance chart about it like single threaded insert your performance of
1:34:30Intel CPUs over the past ten years or whatever and the curve is not a hockey
1:34:34stick going up any more like in our youth in the heyday of CPU architectures
1:34:39every year there be new chip in it was like twice as fast and you know you
1:34:43could just magically fast you don't have to recompile you do not use a new
1:34:46technology like that the clock speed would double and the you know the number
1:34:51of execution units would double and just everything was was roses every year I
1:34:56remember in this is this latest the nineties internship Windows software
1:35:00development place and is writing his coat and everybody had a 486 and
1:35:08opinions were just coming out so I don't know what youre this would have been
1:35:12around 95 maybe 94 somewhere around there and the one guy got one first one
1:35:19of the engineers government first and it was so ridiculously faster than
1:35:23everybody else and it gave us good kid i mean you know usually programmers get
1:35:26good good devices because they really you know even if you're like a
1:35:30penny-pinching manager if if it takes a long time for the code is compiled
1:35:34getting your engineers machines are compiled code festers
1:35:37disguise machine was so much faster that we would people would wait until he was
1:35:42like away from his desk and then uses computer to compile stuff because it was
1:35:45took less time than waiting for to compile Iran desk yeah I remember just
1:35:49like seeing doom running around like I do more on the pending before the age of
1:35:54video card this is on the CPU it was just magic how much faster was just the
1:35:59same program like it is the same program just for free everything you did got
1:36:03faster so when we were in that part of the hockey stick graph I saw it looked
1:36:07like it had at that part of the largest occur where it's like going up up up and
1:36:11that's nice level often becomes like a mound you know we're going to the slope
1:36:14is decreasing over time
1:36:16and if we were still on that hockey stick I think it's inevitable GM's in
1:36:22any sort of higher abstraction thing would have won because it's like yeah a
1:36:26little bit slower and you can get behind and we may be using remember they're
1:36:31supposed to but just everything is on the big hockey stick and it doesn't
1:36:34matter your concerns are pointless they'll be dwarfed by by be in
1:36:39excitability of progress and progress has slowed for two reasons one the move
1:36:44to mobile has pushed everybody back down that chart a little bit and they really
1:36:49can't think we're back in the hockey stick like doubling their CPU speed
1:36:53everything but all they did was they just got shut down the hockey stick
1:36:56because these things are a little CPUs with small batteries and their mom
1:37:02globes that don't allow for you no fans or anything like that kind of back in
1:37:06the you know the old days and that means we're also back in performance on the
1:37:11iPhone CPUs they used to be like dishwasher operating distance marcia
1:37:15CPUs like they were terrible and they've been slowly catching up to now with the
1:37:19iPad Pro it's like this is a modern MacBook CPU but not surpassing the
1:37:25desktop no no no they're they're still there we're still everything to slower
1:37:29and that's been a huge advantage for Apple having a native platform like back
1:37:34in the day where everything was Objective C which is the baseline which
1:37:37to be able to get the iPhone one out the door not been working like the
1:37:41BlackBerry people thought it was a fake demo seemed impossible now and then we
1:37:46see things like to watch where we're pushed back to wow this is really slow
1:37:50again
1:37:51yeah and then the other aspect of this is Moore's Law Moore's law can't
1:37:56continue forever the density of transistors on a CPU doubling every 18
1:38:02months but eventually get down to like quarks and gluons you know having the
1:38:08size of things the mass starts to get really funky really fast and as far as
1:38:11we are aware you can't keep subdividing matter wherever you go down to a
1:38:15fundamental particles and way before you get on the fundamental particles
1:38:18everything becomes screw in terms of the laws of physics and quantum mechanics
1:38:21and its so creepy sizes like we continue to march forward but there is there is
1:38:27an
1:38:27end in sight where you're gonna have to convert the new technology like quantum
1:38:32computing you know it's not as if this day can't go on forever and so the bed
1:38:39with swift is the Arab time they were in now where progress on computing power
1:38:44and performance has 44 both like practical reasons you know in terms of
1:38:49how much harder is it for Intel to make their top in Cbus pastor every year at
1:38:54how long does it take to get to medics process node for making you know feature
1:38:57sizes smaller interviews and because of the move to mobile and wearable and who
1:39:00knows what else that this is a good time to say I don't think the hardware is
1:39:07going to make it so that those virtual machines are better suited to apples and
1:39:12then the solution that represented by swift and arc with Objective C and so
1:39:18let's say you know the language in the next 20 years the next 20 years he's
1:39:22like this is the best technical solution until quantum computers or whatever this
1:39:26is what we're going with and Apple is essentially begging the company on that
1:39:30and it's been a good bet so far because that I think it gives them a huge
1:39:33advantage during the iPhone hair essentially Bais device error where it
1:39:40was very difficult for the competitors to catch up with them until the CPUs did
1:39:43start climbing up that high tech as of now now we can support Java Virtual
1:39:47Machine and have a responsive GUI you know just a little more ramen
1:39:52occurs to me and I might speculate about car but one of the things that makes me
1:39:59laugh about the car idea is that it's like the one team at Apple that's
1:40:05writing software that the computing part of the device
1:40:09doesn't have to really worry about battery life I mean the car itself
1:40:14obviously is going to have to worry about battery life tremendously but the
1:40:17amount of the battery that towards propelling you know multi ton device is
1:40:23you know everything and the little computer that lights up the dashboard
1:40:28and maybe you know whatever else with the sensors and stuff is insignificant
1:40:32but it really the exception to where things are going the watch to me is the
1:40:36better example of where things are going where the computing device is getting
1:40:42smaller and smaller I mean and you know I don't know what the idea would be but
1:40:47surely they gonna be making devices that make the watch look big
1:40:50you know in the years to come and so they're never gonna get out of the need
1:40:54I don't think the foreseeable future
1:40:5622 have really efficient code that runs on what everybody would consider to be a
1:41:04painfully slowed processor because we keep the desire to keep making things
1:41:10smaller and smaller and have little fingernail size things that do clever
1:41:13stuff is inevitable and really had to view it kind of is like epochs in
1:41:19history like there was there is prob going up which was awesome our computers
1:41:22would get faster more powerful just like everything about them would get better
1:41:26just year after year and was amazing right and if you get starry-eyed
1:41:29extrapolate from that used to be liked by the time we're adults computers will
1:41:32be infinitely fast and have more memory use size of a planet but now it works we
1:41:38start reaching the limits of you know so I can wait for lithography and all the
1:41:42other and instruction level parallelism all the other side of very difficult
1:41:46problems that make it harder to make or even just like heat dissipation with the
1:41:50the major its wars like you know what you're using now 34 gaidar CPUs they had
1:41:5634 cigarette CPUs a long time ago to why we're not using 700 like we're going
1:42:02into the limits of the current way we do computation and so we're kind of in a
1:42:07dead period like we're making progress and we're doing interesting things and
1:42:10we're going the other direction saying well when I made a lot of progress on
1:42:12top end but we can shrink these suckers down really small now is not pretty
1:42:16awesome you can have a smart phone or smart watch
1:42:18but there will inevitably come a time when we come out of the slower period
1:42:21and golf into another hockey stick with its quantum computing or whatever
1:42:24weather all dead or not like there will be further progress is not the end of
1:42:27progress but if your Apple and you're trying to figure out how to make the
1:42:33development platform for right now and for the next twenty years you have to
1:42:37sort of bed like what is the best fit for this and it's you know Apple have
1:42:41the benefit of everyone else going first and going with virtual machines
1:42:45wetherbee job rst sharper the common language runtime the Microsoft and
1:42:49seeing how JavaScript worked out in the browser and then essentially said
1:42:52because both mobile and the slowdown in top-end performance increase we believe
1:42:57this is the best bet for the next twenty years or so because they starve Iran
1:43:00else go before them and so that that's where we are with this I don't think you
1:43:05know what does not its offensive language the next hundred years could be
1:43:08but again the beauty of these details not being in swift itself as there's
1:43:13nothing in the language itself to dictate that it couldn't be run on Tower
1:43:16virtual machines that's not the correct solution for Apple right now and that's
1:43:19not all right let me tell you about our next friend of the show and it's a good
1:43:24friend at wealth front
1:43:26show the last few episodes they are here they give you a low-cost automated
1:43:31investment service makes it super-easy to invest your money
1:43:34the right way you just put money into wealth account and then they manage the
1:43:39portfolio you you ask they ask you a couple questions about how risk-averse
1:43:45you are how aggressive you wanna be as you can obviously be investing money in
1:43:50the stock market it could go down it's not you know not a bank account so they
1:43:54ask you a couple questions to see how comfortable you are with risk and then
1:43:58they just take it from there and that's it
1:44:00they literally say whether you're just starting out you can count which is 500
1:44:05bucks if you wanna put millions of dollars in there you can do it too seems
1:44:10crazy to me but you know really its kels all the way from you know you've been
1:44:15$500 put in the market to millions of dollars you can do it
1:44:19why would you use them instead of a traditional money managers basically
1:44:22what welfare is is an automated service that replaces a human money manager
1:44:27the big reason to do it is that number one they're just putting the index funds
1:44:32anyway which is really a smart long-term strategy if you read anything about the
1:44:36ways that people can actually you know invest for success in long-term putting
1:44:41money in the index funds to go that's pretty much what well front does but
1:44:45they balance between different index fund based on you know monitoring
1:44:49systems all the time monitoring the market all the time and moving money
1:44:53around between different index funds to keep your risk at the right level and
1:44:57the big thing is is that wealth front charges way lower than traditional money
1:45:03managers 1.01% is about the average with some of those some of the money managers
1:45:09out there charged up to 3% and that's what you have under management so if you
1:45:13have you know $10,000 under management they they take a fee of 3% of your money
1:45:19not like your profits but your money
1:45:22well fronts is just 0.25% and they only start charging that above $10,000 so if
1:45:33you only you know once you get $10,000 account that when they start charging
1:45:37their 0.25% and if you use the code I have here for you they actually bumped
1:45:45up to 15,000 and so if you have fifteen thousand and then put one more dollar in
1:45:51there they charged the fee on that one dollar that over 15,000
1:45:55gone from them go to hear you go to find out more
1:45:59well front dot com slash the talk show and again you can start which is 500
1:46:05bucks and they even say right here that that's really how most of people who do
1:46:09it put a little money in there see how it works and when you see how it works
1:46:13you like the results that when you put your quote unquote real money and
1:46:16so go to wealth front dot com slash the talk show actually save money because
1:46:21you get that you get bumped up to $15,000 before they even start charging
1:46:26you a nickel to go check them out and here's the part where I have to try to
1:46:30stay out of prison for compliance purposes I have to tell you that well
1:46:34front incorporated is an SEC registered investment advisor brokerage services
1:46:39are offered through well front brokerage corporation member FINRA and SIPC this
1:46:46is not a solicitation to buy or sell securities investing in securities
1:46:50involves risks and there is the possibility of losing money
1:46:54past performance is no guarantee of future results please visit while front
1:46:58I come to read their full disclosure so far so good nobody from the SEC is a
1:47:06matter of time till I find you
1:47:07anything else on swift and and they do more of those things and I think we're
1:47:18working our way down letter I guess we kind of are like schiller
1:47:23talk show and buttery and I care we keep going down like list Chris Lattner is
1:47:29unlike open-source podcast talk about programming languages with nerds but
1:47:33eventually you get like individual developers alike the UIKit team during
1:47:37interviews well maybe they won't go that far but I don't know I like the idea of
1:47:41because you gonna change people you would think would be both in the
1:47:45position and who's the asked about talking about more small technical
1:47:48details they have doled out of the idea was to speak with one voice from the top
1:47:54and it doesn't say too much and now we're now we're kind of moving down the
1:48:00ladder well we speak with multiple voices from the top tiers and so they
1:48:05can talk about a little bit different things like you know phil was not going
1:48:07to talk to you about you know runtime casting things into protocols right but
1:48:13very well as long as you keep going down at the the conversations get
1:48:17more interesting to narrower audiences as opposed to always just being like the
1:48:22big picture what are you doing stuff I enjoyed the thing i've detected when I
1:48:27would define the new Apple the difference in all up on new Apple is
1:48:31that there remain committed to secrecy on future products for the exact same
1:48:36reasons they always have been that they don't want competitors to know from a
1:48:40marketing perspective they feel that being able to avail these things it's a
1:48:43surprise is an advantage and they get some a lot of publicity around their
1:48:47events and announcements that they wouldn't have if they were blabbing
1:48:50about everything in advance and I think also just the good old fashioned under
1:48:56promise over to over deliver that if you keep talking about stuff in the future
1:48:59all the time have negatively some of these things are gonna ship late and
1:49:03then you've disappointed people in terms and you know but for stuff that's
1:49:08already shipped and talking about decisions they've already made and the
1:49:11stuff that out there I think that's where the differences I feel like all
1:49:14doubtful was if we're misunderstood groom I don't we don't care you know you
1:49:19either get it or you don't and if you like new Apple executive level really is
1:49:25its open this is coming from the frustration I think of being
1:49:30misunderstood and feeling like if we could just explain ourselves we'd be
1:49:35less misunderstood and I wish that we could do if only like we all of our
1:49:39commentary on our blogs and podcasts and everything only had a user name but they
1:49:43had no way to contact us like the App Store be frustrating Apple I give people
1:49:48a misunderstanding you but there was just no way you could find who this John
1:49:51guy was about it i mean that's a good contrast terms of the organizations like
1:49:56they'll talk a lot about that road map for swiftness with three engage with the
1:50:01community but we best about this programming language that now is going
1:50:04to be much bigger than Apple itself and as a community project but no more talk
1:50:08to you about the App Store even if you have such as such a contrast in terms of
1:50:13just talk to a person who would be reasonable with me like surely we can
1:50:17work with that you hear all the the crazy stories about like that happens in
1:50:21Review forever or they think you're violating someone's copyright but it's
1:50:24like no you don't
1:50:25the opposite there are violating mine and just things that you feel I can be
1:50:29worked out between two reason people just talk to each other on the phone but
1:50:32nevertheless take months I was there is no I know it was when the apt to quit
1:50:42the App Store which one sketch well know the one that was reasons sketch
1:50:47announced that they were leaving the App Store and again I don't know I don't
1:50:52wanna call it the straw that broke the camel's back I don't know that it's
1:50:55going to mean that anything's gonna happen but to me it was just emblematic
1:50:58of the problems and especially in the Mac App Store because sketch was to my
1:51:04mind the prototypical modern Mac productivity up its beloved it's so
1:51:12popular I mean an apple obviously knows its popular they ship with the watch a
1:51:17West St case they ship Photoshop templates for watch UI design and sketch
1:51:23template for what you are designed so I think those are the only two you know
1:51:27obviously anybody who uses a different graphics program could open up the PSP
1:51:30Zune converter or something like that but the two that Apple ships you know
1:51:34that you can just download from apple.com are for sketch in Photoshop so
1:51:38to put it on the same pedestals Photoshop is you know it's pretty good
1:51:43and they've won Apple Design Awards and they've been heavily promoted in the App
1:51:48Store and for them to leave the App Store to me is just wow if they if
1:51:52they're not happy in the App Store who is this
1:51:55that's when Apple's narrative doesn't fit anymore because if you're an apple
1:51:58and you want to have a narrative to make yourself feel better place to be like
1:52:02well these are just the kind of thing we talked about the complaints about did
1:52:05you know I don't need Aquitaine releases like well these are just the old people
1:52:08like it we love them they're loyal to our platform they've been there a long
1:52:11time your DOB is your Microsoft here whatever but really the future of the
1:52:16platform is about new blood it's about new developers developers we haven't
1:52:20heard of like say someone makes a new grant application that's not Adobe
1:52:24that's from a smaller team that grows up on our platform that we were the first
1:52:28and only platform they targeted that that is native to us you know
1:52:32like that's what I like these this fresh young faces like new talent essentially
1:52:39that means that the future of the plan the future of the platform is not old
1:52:42crusty people who've been shipping on that platform is for thirty years right
1:52:45its new people and so a new company had never heard of comes along and makes us
1:52:49great graphics application that you know taking the world by storm and Apple
1:52:54thing putting up alongside Photoshop invece yeah you know where it became
1:52:59more than you can't just say well really the App Store is great for everybody is
1:53:02just the old crusty people are used to the old ways to break the narrative yeah
1:53:06one of the ways that sketch again is to me a poster child of what Apple wants
1:53:11third party apps to be as I can only and it's not only because they you know it's
1:53:16because they've how does a small team build an app that in some ways can
1:53:21compete toe-to-toe Photoshop it's because they're leveraging all of this
1:53:26great graphics stuff built into Mac OS tend same thing with Pixelmator same
1:53:32thing with acorn from us you know that these apps written these graphics after
1:53:37in a really small teams I mean gus is the only developer it flying me I mean
1:53:42it's a one-person him there he can make an app that credibly stands as a
1:53:48professional image editor because he's leveraging it when you make any sense to
1:53:52go cross platform because it's it's all built on this system stuff and at that
1:53:57without a warrant for multiple reasons one that's why they give you these API's
1:54:01and they are happy to see them used and then they know that when they add new
1:54:05features to the operating system like what's the thing on the new Renault 5 k
1:54:11max where there's more colors on the monitor the DPP 30 damage or whatever
1:54:16it's called right so then these apps I thinks catch one of these apps I know I
1:54:21saw the release notes on the App Store one of them just an update that has
1:54:25support for it already
1:54:26whereas in the old days when you're not to bad mouth Adobe but with the Dobie
1:54:31stuff where their cross platform they couldn't adopt like a new great new Mac
1:54:35technology like this deep color on the five K I'm at because they have this
1:54:39graphics engine
1:54:41that is a level of abstraction and it's based on what's available on Mac and
1:54:46Windows and Windows doesn't have it maybe there's you know it's going to
1:54:49take them longer to be able to adopt it because then you've got these files that
1:54:54have you know deep color that don't show up on Windows or something like that
1:54:57it's just a perfect example of doing it the right way and they're getting out
1:55:04anyway the one thing that stuck out to me on this and you like your example of
1:55:07it if you could just talk to somebody and work this out was in the hubbub over
1:55:11sketch leaving the App Store I was reading Michael side had a great blog
1:55:17post a roundup blog post with like you know 89 10 different reactions from
1:55:22around the web and he just noted at the end of the noted without any further
1:55:26comment that he has an update to america that's been pending it's just a bug fix
1:55:32update to one of his out there was pending review for 59 days is a bug fix
1:55:40from a user's and 59 days later it still waiting to go under review and even that
1:55:45you say is like prioritization or whatever and he might feel bad about it
1:55:48but the ones that just really drive me nuts as we're like it's a
1:55:51misunderstanding like the romantic comedy level misunderstand and it's just
1:55:57like listening to me you're not like it used to be able to get together and
1:56:03explain this one thing like the whole rest of the movie points right and this
1:56:06is like this in the App Store but is known for you to talk to you like you
1:56:09you send your message in a bottle and he wait and you wait and then you wait in
1:56:12this inscrutable reply comes back it's like no you can't understand me hate you
1:56:16you did you even read what I wrote it like it is this an automated system is
1:56:19there a human there talk to somebody somebody who is both empowered and able
1:56:24to understand the language barrier like they don't you know I think the one by
1:56:28copyright was like where some scammers reporting about locations that appeared
1:56:31to come from a different developer and then upload flag the legitimate
1:56:34developer to say they were violating the Copyright Office like whatever something
1:56:39that is very frustrating I can and that is that comes down to it like in a
1:56:42romantic comedy is merely a lack of communication
1:56:45and how can people be doing so well and improving so much and its communication
1:56:50like keeping the advantages like you said of like keeping your products
1:56:53secret and not and not showing everything you even thinking of making
1:56:56these people are disappointed but also being open to feedback and having a
1:57:01community where human beings talk to other human beings in there is going to
1:57:04green doesn't mean people outside a platonic out what to do but just to make
1:57:08sure everyone's on the same page and obviously that much more advantageous
1:57:12for programming language which is less of a competitive advantage for Apple
1:57:16then like individual features whatever the App Store by its just so clearly a
1:57:23different philosophy dictating the public face of that part of the
1:57:28organization than the other and it was all one big place and travel to speak
1:57:32with one voice but I just it's becoming increasingly clear where the lines are
1:57:39in terms of like the new Apple that you were describing and the old apple that's
1:57:45it still inside their house say that is or isn't appropriate for the individual
1:57:51things just difference like what department of my talk to what is the
1:57:55subject of that were that were even talking about and how then does that
1:58:00will talk about it
1:58:0259 days and I guess I could take another break here and enjoying talking about
1:58:17swift against the other one other thing I thought about was swift and no apples
1:58:22they said this for a while but Federici said this in his talking points all week
1:58:25long which is that they really really think that Swift could be like the
1:58:31default go to programming language not just for their platforms in writing apps
1:58:36for their platforms but just like you know high school kids who are learning
1:58:40to program middle school kids are way too high school kids learning to program
1:58:44computer science courses in college you know why not you know the Desi swift as
1:58:50the language they could take that role which to me is I believe it really think
1:58:55that they they they mean it but that's such an incredibly ambitious goal for
1:59:01programming language that sounds more reasonable when you think about well
1:59:05people learning with now because I can tell you see like I think most of the
1:59:11time its job or JavaScript which I guess this javascript probably isn't terrible
1:59:17because it's a pretty simple as you think you think writing a job job job i
1:59:23think is the most common teaching language at this point some schools like
1:59:27you know I think MIT still something with scheme in Lisbon all that business
1:59:30but the days of them teaching see is your first program I would think are
1:59:36long gone and C++ same time like what is a better teacher gets too likely if not
1:59:41swift than one and if job is the answer thanks West has fewer well his
1:59:48difficulty when they say that like so what's with you want the 2010 9:52 on
1:59:54again it's barely setting up at this point so this is obviously a long-term
1:59:58plan but once with settles down being a more modern language it's either going
2:00:04to be swift or something like Python or javascript isn't even higher level
2:00:07language learning languages don't need to care about performances stuff like
2:00:11that so you can get away with
2:00:12using that toy language but a much much higher level language that you just want
2:00:18them to do with the concepts and I think the only thing that holds with back is
2:00:21swift is a complicated language which has a lot of features and a lot of
2:00:27features in swift I think make more sense in the context of understanding
2:00:31simpler language its first list is not a simple there is out there is a lot to it
2:00:37very powerful there's a lot of concepts and things and they're not details they
2:00:41don't care about like memory management probably a little tiny bit of that if
2:00:44you really want to get into it but they have an unsafe point yeah like they've
2:00:49got the go-ahead score yourself abilities in there but that's been doin
2:00:53teach that but even just the concepts of the way it handles you know all the
2:00:58different prototypes in the class extensions and inheritance and window
2:01:02you the classroom when do I use destructing ValueType sources reference
2:01:05types and this there's a lot of things in there that aren't in much simpler
2:01:08languages like back in the old days
2:01:11tickle TCL you know like a logo with a little turtle turtle even something like
2:01:16Python I mean I guess I guess every language has granted corners but Swift
2:01:20is already a pretty full feature languages going to get even hurt with
2:01:24time so that may hold back from me TGIF because in some respects a teaching
2:01:29language you need to be a real language and I guess he needed excuse for your
2:01:33exercises and stuff but you're not teaching them here is the programming
2:01:35language again using you enter the industry like occasional school concept
2:01:39which is why mit can take solace in Scheme and everything and ML or whatever
2:01:43and like I don't care if you can use this we're just trying to keep you
2:01:46conceptually how's work somewhat y Python again in another language many
2:01:50people outside looks like pseudocode especially since no curly braces in the
2:01:53invitation is mandatory single you out rooms booked into the algorithms
2:01:56red-black trees and you're right it a python it looks a lot like it did in
2:01:59your book the dilemma has english words isn't a program book at all
2:02:04so I think the road to Swift being a teaching language may be difficult but
2:02:10if I had to pick the teachers course in Java and settings with would be better
2:02:16if only because Charles get even more weirdness in terms of like primitives
2:02:20versus you know boxing and an object types and all sorts of crap like that so
2:02:25I've never written job so I'm speaking from a position of admitted some level
2:02:31of ignorance but I you know everything I've ever seen of job is just it's so
2:02:38verbose really I find it very off-putting and there's a lot of like
2:02:44bill of weakness in Java that has to do with i think is a funny part of speaking
2:02:49of things that sound where the future funny by Rick Perry's injury when you
2:02:53staying power or service i'd languages like Jabba was not made as a language
2:03:00for set-top boxes right and in fact it would everybody programs on to read and
2:03:04write ups right oh yeah it's that but like its origins were for set-top boxes
2:03:12then eventually its second life was always going to be a plus they're gonna
2:03:15run in your browser like the opposite of Service Code be sent from a server to
2:03:19your client and runs in people's web browser and then it had third life as
2:03:23you know it is going to have this is a member man's language in this area
2:03:26because it's faster than all the scripting languages and it doesn't
2:03:29require manual never imagined like C++ it always struck me and i know that it
2:03:35came from Sun and it was a typical laid-back Valley corporation to talk
2:03:42about Sun in the past tense and it even feels like the past tense you know I
2:03:49know that word started but the syntax of it looked so corporate look like the
2:03:53type of programming language it was written by like IBM programmers who
2:03:56still wore like a certain type of work and and like the paper people who like
2:04:00your email is configured can even change it so that you have like a 12 line legal
2:04:06disclaimer in your signature you know that you know if you've gotten this
2:04:10e-mail by mistake you are legally obligated to delete it and notify us
2:04:13immediately you know it just outside a type of programming which were just to
2:04:17have a simple class you've got like 12 lines of bullshit boilerplate for
2:04:21everything
2:04:21yeah like trying to do hello world and having to make like a class that I mean
2:04:26to it that it is kind of like if you compare it to C++ was trying to make
2:04:35them are rationalized world and it i think as one of the first languages to
2:04:39really break out and be successful in doing that I I definitely feel like it
2:04:43has a respect for it is making a substantial lead over what came before
2:04:46it but I have respect for it but it didn't like I i went to Drexel in the
2:04:50nineties majored in computer science we learned pass Calif at first like the the
2:04:55first year courses repressed cow and people used to complain some people not
2:05:01largely but there were complaints like on the mailing list liked students
2:05:05complained to the faculty that you know why we learn Pascal no dirt no jobs in
2:05:10Pascal everybody wants to programmers and the professors you know if they
2:05:14would respond or I guess it wasn't mailing list it was new to enter the
2:05:17newsgroups we had for that
2:05:19computer science department and they were just really we're not running
2:05:22locations here if you learn how to program you be able to program in any
2:05:25language which is true I mean it's you know it's not like you know you learn
2:05:31how to program in CNN you don't have a program another just have to learn this
2:05:34index like when I took object oriented programming it was C++ object oriented
2:05:41programming sucks I took away from object program in college I was like wow
2:05:48this is this is bullshit yeah I mean it's like that's the thing about
2:05:54teaching languages is you're trying to teach concepts and they may constitute a
2:06:00pretty new but you have to have an embodiment of those concepts teaching
2:06:04busy do want people to write code that executes and every embodiment comes with
2:06:08its own BS like whatever that BS maybe but there may there may be no it started
2:06:12out as a series of macros on top of C and so he's got you know see greatness
2:06:17in there or this language is obsessive performance there's a lot of crap that
2:06:22you don't quite understand that complicates things but it's needed for
2:06:24performance or Java like this is that this was originally made for set-top
2:06:29boxes and later was used in this is my code thing going on and they tried to
2:06:34make a new portable framework that works everywhere so you why the hell this file
2:06:39I look all crazy well it has to work everywhere and can't rely on you know
2:06:43like there's a virtual machine
2:06:45and not using the native libraries in the platform and everything is over both
2:06:50said no and that look that baggage is not part of what they're trying to teach
2:06:53you but you have to end up learning it as part of the course in if things go
2:06:57awry the course can end up being being more about that baggage or get
2:07:01distracted and think that bag just part of the central concept like you said
2:07:04thinking the C++ his job during the program two very separate different
2:07:08things and if that's in his mind to his first object oriented language I learned
2:07:12with C++ it really works your world view and you can't help your teaching that
2:07:17chorus to be influenced by the language of your choosing so I'm glad that people
2:07:22upgraded from C and C++ the job because it was a significant step up in terms of
2:07:26the BS that you have to learn to deal with but Java has its own BS and swift
2:07:31as on ps2 especially now that is changing every year but if you're near
2:07:35previous Simon 20 min compiled by next year maybe it's not time to jump on this
2:07:40bandwagon yet but over time yeah you need to upgrade the language you using
2:07:45to teach and hopefully they get better over time and have less BS I guess I had
2:07:51it in my notes for the interview with Craig victory don't think I got to think
2:07:57it was because it was just seemed like a dead end to try to get it out of him but
2:08:01I don't know how you would have asked but the basic idea being that a lot of
2:08:08times a programming language is it starts to fuel the creator of the
2:08:13languages personal each girl is a perfect example of that say what you
2:08:16want about her mean you you know I know you still rape role as your job rain
2:08:21will do and you know everything I've ever done of any consequence programming
2:08:26lights bro
2:08:27my reference markdown implementation is perot I i wouldn't you know I like it I
2:08:36think for me for me person because I'd most of what I want to do is string
2:08:40manipulation that's why pearl is great and but that the fact that it's a great
2:08:43string manipulation was the fact that Larry wall was wanted to do things like
2:08:47that and if you read back to when he created it was you know he was writing
2:08:51the script for the NSA or something like that it was some kind of government NASA
2:08:58NASA but he was a gift to you know how these automated things that need to run
2:09:04an FTP the results up to a certain server and automating with scripts and
2:09:09territories to be a lot easier if I just made my own little scripting language
2:09:12that made this easier to do from there and all sorts of other languages have
2:09:17origins like that and I just wonder whether is it a problem that Swift is
2:09:22being steered by someone who's systems designer who writes the LOV M&C lang and
2:09:29writes these compilers is it is there a problem having a language written by the
2:09:33compiler guy because you're making things you're trying to make things
2:09:35easier for the compiler and optimize things from the compiler as opposed to
2:09:39making a language that makes it more possible to be expressive as captives
2:09:45designer well that foundational bet on you know are essentially versus a
2:09:51virtual machine is at the core I feel like of the design it's with because
2:09:56it's baked in entirely in that is definitely from a compiler writers
2:09:58perspective in touch on this is well if you are writing compiler dealing with
2:10:05language that makes it so you can't add certain obvious optimizations because
2:10:10according to the semantic the language you can't be sure that this thing you
2:10:14know I can't be sure what is going to call here I'm not I'm not gonna know
2:10:17until runtime compile time I have no idea so the compiler hands tied behind
2:10:23its back both hands sometimes there just like well
2:10:26known I can do about I just gotta put in this code to execute this runtime a look
2:10:30at the method and executed and you can try to do some optimizations and runtime
2:10:34that all your code it turned into call to the C library for Objective C message
2:10:38send me an optimized with assembly code or whatever but the bottom line is we
2:10:42can't we can't know what the hell is going to be like that is that there is
2:10:46dynamism in the language that the compiler can handle likes of your
2:10:51compiler guy like what is really frustrating like I know I can make this
2:10:54go faster I know I can make this paper I know I can make it so I can I can
2:10:58guarantee that this is always going to be nothing a programmer can do to end up
2:11:03with this half initialized object is going to cause a segfault because they
2:11:05didn't realize to the chain of code that they're halfway through the initial as
2:11:08they call a method in tries to read some object attribute that has garbage data
2:11:11in it because I can fix that no language and I can say this language guarantees
2:11:16the by the time this object is constructed all the stuff that's been
2:11:19initialized
2:11:20it guaranteed by the language is guaranteed by the compiler that bug is
2:11:23gone forever decode or calling a method on the thing that doesn't exist that bug
2:11:27is gone for you I can guarantee that right and so it's not just the he's like
2:11:30I just wanna make it good for the compiler
2:11:33compiling I also sees all the places where you know where bugs happened where
2:11:37program down and we can solve that I think are you getting out of life but if
2:11:41you most compilers yeah maybe you're making a language that makes it more
2:11:45difficult to write you like it or a pocket or some like one of these great
2:11:49GUI libraries that helps application developers make the applications they
2:11:53make for the Macan for iOS and I think I mean two things may be giving people the
2:12:00impression one is there is a match between the language in the library in
2:12:05terms of again
2:12:07culturally as well as technically and early in Swiss life one of the main
2:12:12requirements as soon as you have to be able to call into Dr say in all that I
2:12:15do you have to be able to interact yet filled out an application partially
2:12:18impartial objective say it's a non-starter and it can't be it may not
2:12:22be optimal but it can be terrible to drop into an object you know to call
2:12:26into an Objective C library and I Craig said you can't wait around to be like
2:12:30well we got a new language and then a whole new set of libraries in a whole
2:12:32new set like you can't just start from scratch this too much value and
2:12:35investment
2:12:36in one end and all the existing frameworks and libraries and then you'd
2:12:40still be in case we have it to libraries like a whole separate stack perspective
2:12:44you have to do have to have the interaction with it and interaction is
2:12:48going to be a little weird like all the crazy annotations they have an Objective
2:12:51C libraries to get better interfaces with swift and you have to think really
2:12:54hard about like cocoa yeah I mean they eventually settled that right but you
2:13:00know during the transition gotta do what you gotta do in transition I think that
2:13:04transition makes with look bad because if it was a top-to-bottom switch stack
2:13:08it would be clear hey how do I use with to make it go yeah right now it's hey
2:13:12how are you Swift to use Objective C libraries to make ago yeah and there's
2:13:17this drive by people writing code like I just want to be purists with but you
2:13:21can't really be up to this point like they feel like it's a defeat to say well
2:13:25I'm using swift but I'm basing everything on NSObject because I just
2:13:28want those type of semantic like it feels feels dirty doesn't feel period
2:13:32business not gonna be here at the bus stop them on for a long time just
2:13:35because of the reality of the situation they're in and the second thing I think
2:13:39that is hoping that the other thing in mind is that yes we're just a language
2:13:43written by compiling guy that does a lot of things that make it make it easier to
2:13:50read a compiler and then make it easier to make guaranteed to be safe but that
2:13:55guy had two pitches language to an organization filled with people who make
2:13:59applications he had to convince like Ali Ozer that you know this new language
2:14:04they came up with in my basement or whatever I think simply the language of
2:14:08the next 20 years of apple and it's an awesome way to retire and Mac apps he
2:14:13had to make that case is not like he's not the dictator of Apple right he
2:14:17didn't say i cant was swift and we're going to use it and I feel like two
2:14:21people had to make their case to know what the heck they're doing and it had
2:14:25to have been a good case I have no problem standing up for their you know
2:14:29for their own thoughts and he's not the boss so I you know it's it's very
2:14:37uncomfortable in this phase we are now where it's so clear that there are
2:14:40barriers to making this work and swift isn't done yet and all these other
2:14:43things that are true
2:14:45but I'm not really ready to bang the gavel on anything having to do with like
2:14:48well Swift is not as well suited for making go apps Objective C was yeah you
2:14:53could say that the current version is not as well suited as Objective C for
2:14:58using Objective C libraries to write going out but I feel like as the culture
2:15:04and capabilities and actual code as a swift top-to-bottom like so sorry
2:15:08foundation and all the libraries start getting built up I feel like the same
2:15:13teams that made like you know when they made you I get that kind of like
2:15:15repented for the sins of that it did it better
2:15:19there's one more chance to do that right now all those same great minds behind
2:15:23you i kidnap get some of those same lines are going to be the great minds
2:15:27behind this with native applications in the future I think that'll be good thing
2:15:32and I think that having to about being the compiler guy is that a foot ladder
2:15:40and his team in the people who worked with in a position where they're really
2:15:43intimately familiar with the things that cause problems in shipping applications
2:15:50and maybe some of those problems are things that a true expert objectives he
2:15:56would never do and therefore they feel a little frustrated like that that
2:15:59language not that it's being catered to dummies but that by by making certain
2:16:04things that were possible no longer possible to prevent a whole class of
2:16:09possible bugs but at the same time you also prevent certain clever but
2:16:14dangerous techniques that people had taken advantage of
2:16:18significantly and that Apple is making decisions that that tradeoff is worth it
2:16:22because they they're in a position where they literally no from the crash reports
2:16:26and code that actually been shipping that being able to not do this anymore
2:16:31is actually going to cut off you know this sort of problem only be possible
2:16:36anymore
2:16:37making it harder like the idea of a half initialized object like you know making
2:16:43that impossible language you can do that fine the idea of calling a method that
2:16:46doesn't exist on an object like at runtime you thought you had an object of
2:16:50this type of really you cast it to the wrong thing like in swift you can
2:16:54forcibly cast things to the wrong thing and try to send them you know the wrong
2:17:00method called the whole idea of like looking up a class named by a string
2:17:03like all these capabilities this dynamism talk about their adding they're
2:17:07adding it so be possible to do these things but it's not like the right or
2:17:11preferred way to do things and it certainly isn't the defaults and if you
2:17:14do it it's going to stand out in your code busy gonna have to make like the
2:17:18standout inadequacy company reiterated over this heterogeneous collection and
2:17:22just sending every object the message blindly right and if they're nil i cant
2:17:25just be an offer and if they're the wrong class it'll blow up there on time
2:17:28because it'll be like blah doesn't respond to the message blah you find
2:17:32that out at runtime right but if you look at the loop it's like I was just
2:17:35looking over the hands of an NSArray and sending messages every single item looks
2:17:38good to me right if you try to do something that potentially dangerous and
2:17:42swift I think it will look scary I think it would look like I am going to now
2:17:46call a method that the compiler cannot absolutely 100% guarantee is going to
2:17:50work and because I call them because they are more coding looks carrier it is
2:17:56sort of culturally saying that has swept world we don't do not do stuff like that
2:18:00we won't be like the program will take care of it I'm sure every object in this
2:18:03collection respond to the message I'm sure will be fined or they just do
2:18:06responses like her and then they'll call it or whatever
2:18:08in swift the default wants to be if you just see straightforward swift code it's
2:18:13gonna work in fall victim to this whole whole classes of errors that could
2:18:18potentially happen in
2:18:19in Objective C because too much was determined at runtime me take a moment
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2:18:30space it's a bill that your all-in-one build your own web site what type of
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2:18:42you go there and sign up and immediately you can just get right started into what
2:18:46it what they'll say what are you trying to trying to build a store and you go to
2:18:51store and then show you a bunch of templates for example stores that you
2:18:54start with in and you say exactly the sort of Temple this this is what the
2:18:58story then you open that up and you just start editing what you see there replace
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2:19:11just write down when you sign up you create a blog and podcast here some
2:19:16templates I like this template using this one but I want to change this this
2:19:20and this position you start changing things right there in the browser called
2:19:25a WYSIWYG really could not be more obvious it's so visual they have all
2:19:32sorts of hooks there if you want to insert your own code you want to get in
2:19:35there to code level and change it a little you can do that too but
2:19:39fundamentally it is it a GUI graphical user interface way to design websites
2:19:45and they have template for so many different types of sites it's it's
2:19:49ridiculous
2:19:50it doesn't just bit the end it doesn't just spit out a bunch of HTML files that
2:19:56you then put the folder and upload to web server hosting platform to its
2:20:01all-in-one you build it you make it you can even get your own domain name on it
2:20:06and you can get the new meaning for free pay per year in advance just could not
2:20:11be easier online commerce the sale stuff they handle the tricky stuff all the
2:20:16encryption and their credit cards and stuff like that really really impressive
2:20:20plans start at a ridiculous eight bucks a month and I said you get a FREE domain
2:20:25name registration for your state if you sign up for a year in advance and the
2:20:30demo is no credit card required you just go there and and just start typing in
2:20:35playing just go to score space.com and just start and you know they're making
2:20:41website could not be easier use the offer code grouper my last name Jerry BR
2:20:47and you'll get 10% off your first purchase with Squarespace if you're
2:20:51listening to the show cause john is on it you can use their code to TTP you get
2:20:55the same time percent off so Squarespace build a beautiful you need to build a
2:20:59website just go check out Squarespace been an hour there will probably end up
2:21:03saving yourself it's all in it together so short I hope it's all right now I
2:21:12know it is I was listening to your show today and I took note of it they doing
2:21:16homework I wanted to see what you guys said about the smart battery I feel like
2:21:22my last couple of shows like I Ted joanne is turned on
2:21:26last week and we've just been like a couple of days away like we could have a
2:21:32couple of days later and we could have Joanna could have gone wrong on the
2:21:35battery case I kinda had a feeling that they were gonna make cuz i didnt know I
2:21:42did they didn't tell me but after the show which store near Joanna said he'd
2:21:47been in touch with you about it was a known as they are with me and all they
2:21:51wanted to know was what color iPhone gonna send me something to review at the
2:21:58end of the week and I remember that somebody Apple when I went and got my
2:22:05iPad pro review unit in a briefing in New York and I was asked which size
2:22:12iPhone do I use success success + and I said success and they were good we might
2:22:18have some for you later you know couple weeks and I filed it away at that point
2:22:23of what the world would they make that would apply to the success and not apply
2:22:27to the success + and the only thing I can think of is a battery pack that's
2:22:31the only other battery pack or or I guess it would have to be a case of the
2:22:35battery pack it would play anything so I figured out how to be about it could
2:22:41have been any kind of case but I suppose you know yeah but why would they make it
2:22:46to me a battery case was specifically this sort of thing that they would make
2:22:49only for the success and not the success of the plus for the obvious reason that
2:22:53the place already get they need to make a case for the plus just just huge lump
2:23:00on the back of the last two days they would be the you can actually do like
2:23:05arm curls with it I think it was actually build your biceps so how was
2:23:10your friend cable tester his case was like cracking along the top of maybe
2:23:16just got the defective 1 I'm assuming yours is fine what color t he got the
2:23:19black one of the charcoal so they sent me the white one and that's only when I
2:23:24have experience with so mine didn't crack and what I did
2:23:28is I got I got mine Tuesday morning so as the day it today announced that they
2:23:34had already sent one to me by FedEx it was like I should have had it and I'm
2:23:40pretty much left it on my phone until I got my review out with a couple of days
2:23:47later I let you read it before you guys did a TV show is truly the Douglas Adams
2:23:55Douglas Adams Tech running 10 for Mac roller Mac user to ya deadlines are
2:24:01great as they watched best your own self-imposed self-declared deadline that
2:24:04was pressuring you to say that you're like no problem I had a Wednesday night
2:24:08school thing it was some kind of showing some kind of projects that kids made at
2:24:165:38 join us at school and other great I'll just make sure I'm finished by then
2:24:20and I have a little self-imposed deadline and I didn't get up till Friday
2:24:23the idea was that the deadline but you're sure you're gonna make it because
2:24:27you had to because you had a school right turns out when you're
2:24:31self-employed you don't have to do anything you know what it was the more I
2:24:35thought about it you know as often happens that writing to me writing is
2:24:39thinking and the more I wrote about it the more I realize that it was
2:24:43interesting things to pursue and think about and talk about it you know
2:24:48sometimes you start right I didn't think it was gonna be nearly as long as it was
2:24:51like the longest thing here in a long time there's been a battery well I hope
2:24:58but to me it does so many little interesting things about it but one of
2:25:01the things I did to motivate myself to finish I didn't really like having it on
2:25:04my iPhone but kept it on my iPhone until I got the review
2:25:09so I actually did use it non-stop pretty much other than like to play with you
2:25:14know the insertion and removal and and certain things you want to do testing it
2:25:19I would but for the most part I had my phone in it from Tuesday to Friday so I
2:25:24didn't see any kind of cracking or anything maybe taking it and how caused
2:25:27the crash could have been you would think it was some sort of widespread
2:25:31defect would have heard about it by now but what happens if the first ones of
2:25:34anything like who knows
2:25:36yeah i think i think is I think the first ones of anything it's it's likely
2:25:40that it was probably too so maybe some kinda maybe there is a bad bad whatever
2:25:46the substance silicon what they call it whatever the substances or maybe there
2:25:51was a coating that was put on that wasn't put on right now anyway I
2:25:54wouldn't I wouldn't if you're thinking of getting one I would let that stop you
2:25:56because something like that happens it is bringing back down I will say this I
2:26:01from ATP you guys were saying and i know somebody else is Joanna hashing review
2:26:07sheet I think she got away with it said don't buy the white one because it's
2:26:10already stained and you guys said oh by the way I have the white one and I used
2:26:14it non-stop for four days and it still looks mint condition didn't pick up pick
2:26:19up any stains so I don't very very clean tissue boxes on your feet in the air
2:26:24like a cat and so there's no president what I heard actually after the show is
2:26:29the opposite of people who got the the black one and said it picks up
2:26:31pocket-lint like if you have linton stuff in your pocket you put the thing
2:26:34in you take it out to cover the white stuff so it's like white and black cars
2:26:37like choose your poison customer can have something in the environment
2:26:41gonna stand out more on them I couldn't tell it is obviously very very similar
2:26:47to their non battery silicone cases in terms of the substance that it's made
2:26:51out of but it maybe not quite the same it actually felt a little grip here to
2:26:57me the battery case to me felt creepier than the non battery case
2:27:02but on the other hand the one that I had handy which was one that Apple gave me
2:27:06with my review unit couple months ago for the iPhone success was blue and this
2:27:12was only white and black and maybe there's some I know if the watch straps
2:27:16there's definitely a little difference in how they feel you know the sport fans
2:27:20there's the different colors have different levels of flexibility
2:27:25different weights yet different weights even and I made that might therefore be
2:27:32true with these two maybe the White is somehow maybe the white non battery
2:27:36cases group here too I thought it was a little too little too creepy I thought
2:27:39you know in terms of it actually being thicker therefore it was a little harder
2:27:43to get in the jean pockets sickness aside that the grittiness made a little
2:27:47you know little bit too much friction and my yea though is that the balance
2:27:52for that one of the complaints about other third-party battery cases they
2:27:55make it slip rear because a lot of them are hard plastic hard shiny plastic and
2:27:59so you end up dropping it also because it's a bigger more awkward shape
2:28:02sometimes but if you make it to grab it hard to slide in out of a pants pocket
2:28:06so you just fine and medium and yeah I totally believe that the black ones
2:28:10could feel different and they look at the pictures I've never touched many
2:28:14things but they look at the pictures like it could also be potentially did
2:28:17whatever material they're making an out of its thicker in the parts that don't
2:28:21have battery in them just take her so could be squishy year it is now it's
2:28:25definitely get so if you stack it side by side with you know it's resting on
2:28:31like the volume buttons or the power on off switch stack it on the side compared
2:28:36side-by-side with the silicon case it's definitely a little thicker it stands up
2:28:40a little bit more the sides are thicker on this then on the silicon case and if
2:28:44you think about it makes sense because it's actually a lot more rigid it's you
2:28:48know you can kind of put the phone I think there's a recommended weight like
2:28:51that with the silicone cases they recommended put it in like certain angle
2:28:54first but it doesn't really matter just put any side in first
2:28:58and just sort of squished that the other side over the edge of the iPhone with
2:29:03this you have to slide it in like it in between the two sides is like a rail it
2:29:09slides in like that and the sides are definitely thicker I don't know what I
2:29:14think it's because it meant to be more rugged I think it is sort of a you know
2:29:18they're only advertising it as a battery case but I think it's also apples answer
2:29:21to what if you want a more protective case for drops and stuff like that
2:29:26gonna have that giant thing on there anyway there's no sense trying to skip
2:29:30around the edges to try to make it look svelte cuz not gonna lie I thought on
2:29:35the ATP I thought you were the only one who's really reasonable Marco and Casey
2:29:39made me a little angry but there goes way too dismissive about it is what it
2:29:44looks like an engineering prototype yeah like I do and this is going to get me is
2:29:50I thought I did a pretty good job my article and then on Twitter you know
2:29:53there's a handful of people of course younger relate says it wasn't overly
2:29:58positive review and i ended it was saying that I don't want to use it and I
2:30:02called it weird and funny looking and ungainly its if it wasn't like I was
2:30:07entirely complimentary was like I just want to understand why they made yea or
2:30:12just like especially in things like this where it's like a visceral reaction
2:30:15based on appearances there is usually a car analogy is an ATP
2:30:22in the car rolled like stuff like that can be polarizing like the physical
2:30:26shape of an object to his purposes
2:30:29mostly not dictated by its shape people have strong opinions about you know
2:30:34Porsche 911 vs Corvette vs Mustang like a very different looking things and in
2:30:39the grand scheme of things their engines and wheels and aerodynamics aside there
2:30:43lots of pictures of cars that look the way you look for for just athletic
2:30:48designer is in so I like that where you look at a picture of something so many
2:30:53people did on the internet looking a picture of this thing and had just had
2:30:56this negative gut reaction to it and these articles come flying like what's
2:30:59happening to Apple design or whatever
2:31:01you really want to understand like what what is a reasonable rationale for you
2:31:07could come to a conclusion that there is no rationale that this is just like the
2:31:11simplest thing that could possibly do and you know they were just lazy or
2:31:17didn't have time or whatever but with Apple knowing everything we know about
2:31:22Apple like that just doesn't seem plausible demanding that they really sit
2:31:26back and it's like and who really cares in the grand scheme of things right but
2:31:32this is what they came out to see you want to think about it like and that's
2:31:35what's going into the philosophy is there an explanation an area where Apple
2:31:39will talk to the press for the most part let's have someone from Apple's design
2:31:43studio not johnnie I because he's busy but someone lower-level make the rounds
2:31:46the tech press no not really
2:31:48that's not going to happen nor should they dislike look this is the product we
2:31:52have and we'll see what the reaction to it is but we think it's it makes sense
2:31:56in some way how could they think it makes sense that I was going back
2:31:59through what have they said in the past publicly about past designs they could
2:32:03conceivably apply to decide whether or not who knows we're just speculating but
2:32:07the bottom line is if you think it's ugly you think it's ugly don't buy it
2:32:12buy one that you think is not ugly right item and any other things I feel like
2:32:17maybe in my cover this enough afterwards if you're wondering why it doesn't look
2:32:24just like a mophie juice pack air whatever their than this one is which is
2:32:29of course the one that Apple if Apple is gonna go that direction they make the
2:32:32tenets they're not going to make one of these cases that have 3000 but what's
2:32:38the unit our civilian powers it's almost easier to write a mean age why doesn't
2:32:48look like those which is really like sort of the standard question I can make
2:32:52one like that because if they thought that was the right way to do it then I
2:32:54have to do anything they're already there there's Apple Store you know are
2:32:58filled with these battery cases that the only reason for them to make one is do
2:33:02is if they had no idea that was different
2:33:04well and also like I think this is a factor like they know a lot of people by
2:33:08battery cases why why shouldn't they
2:33:10and not because like they just they need to get that money or whatever but it's
2:33:15it's like as a it's diversifying with online why don't they make a big part of
2:33:20why shouldn't they make a smaller home why don't they make something and colors
2:33:23is like if it's something that people want and they're buying it anyway why
2:33:26shouldn't Apple make a really good one third parties to fill that role as a
2:33:30battery cases only past into the realm of things that are important enough and
2:33:34that is why they purchase enough that I feel like it should have a party
2:33:37solution and so they do like I'm asked questions about the case in terms of how
2:33:41they came up with this compromise because like going to be this bulky like
2:33:45you said the same thing like why not extend the battery out the top and
2:33:48bottom line I go edge to edge with it like white why not match the capacity of
2:33:54similar thickness battery cases has his explanations which may or may not be
2:33:59rationalizations but in the end of a lot of really does come down to design
2:34:03because you have to pick a size and shape and that dictates how much battery
2:34:08life you have and let's say someone who's really wedded to design a thought
2:34:12it was beautiful and perfect impure and what they wanted then the ethnic design
2:34:17could dictate the size of the battery as opposed to around it it's hard to know
2:34:21that actually talking to the people behind the design all we can do out here
2:34:25speculate and really on ADP I was thinking to dismiss anyone else's
2:34:29theories about bike that there was time crunch or that you know they didn't put
2:34:35in the effort the Netherlands roanoke maybe this was a Russian I don't know
2:34:38what's going on inside out right but is there a plausible explanation that that
2:34:43they say this was actually designed with the same care as every other Apple thing
2:34:46is designed with there were led to believe every other things I'm with is
2:34:50that even possible and I can come up with was so in the absence of any other
2:34:55information you just have the kind of like say which one of those do you think
2:34:57is more likely I think it's so it's so striking that I think it it really had
2:35:04to be the result I think it would be so I think I really doubt that it was the
2:35:09first idea that came up with it so unusual and it is at first glance I
2:35:13think almost it's almost impossible to say that it's not
2:35:16little repulsive at first it just looks swollen in a way you know like you know
2:35:25like when you get stung by a bee and like your thumb swelled up to the debate
2:35:32here thumbs up to the size of a golf ball again looks painful when you see
2:35:36somebody with an injury that swollen you feel it that's what it looks it looks
2:35:42swollen which is not a good look at least at first but I found myself after
2:35:46a few days to get used to it it's just I stopped thinking of a disposing has been
2:35:51supposed to look like a regular case and battery on the back and like I was
2:35:57another possibility again having not actually ever touch me as I can't say
2:36:00you can tell me what you think about this like a lot of Good Grips like
2:36:07kitchen things look kinda weird looking another week to but they're going to
2:36:12hold and ya know if you prioritize how good is this thing called not saying
2:36:16this is what they did because I think the back of it is not shaped like any
2:36:18part of the human hand he doesn't have like rounded rectangle dividend but
2:36:22maybe some ass like you said holding your pinky under the lump instead of
2:36:27under the bottom of the things like that could be a factor in it like it doesn't
2:36:31mean that they're right on so you just trying to delve like what motivated this
2:36:35why because as you said it so it so striking that it it seems clear that
2:36:39this was an intentional thing you don't accidentally make this battery case you
2:36:44want to do something lazy just look like every other battery case and I think
2:36:47Apple would make something look more like they make silicone cases look
2:36:50pretty much like every other silicon case just why does that by one cuz they
2:36:53want to make a nice one and why should the Apple one if you're in the Apple
2:36:56Store like it makes perfect sense it in addition to putting your pinky
2:37:02underneath the putting your index finger on top of it is pretty good too and it
2:37:05does sort of in a weird way it makes it feel as though you're holding a smaller
2:37:10device again you know that it's thicker but it's like you have these like from
2:37:14going back to like the old iPhone days with the first three generations when
2:37:18they were physically smaller and it was a lot easier to kinda get your index
2:37:21fingers on top while you still had some kind of reasonable
2:37:25felt like you could hold it more securely cuz your fingers wrapped around
2:37:28your fingers can wrap around the way it gives you a secure hold if I were going
2:37:33to and I knew in advance that I could package if I knew that I we're going to
2:37:37be using my iPhone camera to record I don't like while I'm writing on a roller
2:37:42coaster or something like that I would put it in this case like battery died
2:37:46even if the battery was completely depleted I wasn't gonna get one percent
2:37:50of charge from it I would put my iPhone in that case to hold it while going down
2:37:55a roller coaster because I feel like I can get like a way more secure grip on
2:38:00that material is made of and because of the hump hump actually gives you like
2:38:04good place to put fingers how many trips to do you have to take before you
2:38:08realize is incredibly dangerous to take movies like to not allow I wouldn't I
2:38:15wouldn't do it and not even because I wouldn't do it just because I would just
2:38:21ruin it was imagining me route dropping live orchestra would just the thought of
2:38:28it puts between such as that is getting hit in the face of ninety miles an hour
2:38:33else's phone like it you do it at the top of the loop or whatever it is they
2:38:36get six flags there so they don't know how they managed just me but it looks
2:38:40like they had you going to like metal detectors like nothing in your pockets
2:38:44like a literally like it was like going through the day
2:38:47no no no no car keys no phones of any time just like it nothing because of Six
2:38:54Flags the roller coasters go away faster to get it all costs goings 60 70 80
2:39:00miles an hour on your phone is essentially stationary like falling from
2:39:03above and your face me that essentially stationary phone that's not a good
2:39:08experience for anybody think so
2:39:10kids no no I'm not saying is though I would do I'm just saying that if I
2:39:16precarious situation and needed to have a grip on my phone that something else
2:39:21the people I'm going yachting if you're doing Duran Duran in the video for Rio
2:39:28and you're on the front of the yacht you want to pick a movie is really cool
2:39:32again bring him I thought you had a good point on the ATP about it looking like a
2:39:39sci-fi like if you just paved the hallway with like using his the tiles
2:39:44like the subway in like the way the subway hallway in the subway station is
2:39:47tiles pilot with these it would look like a great you know like a year in a
2:39:52set of I guess when I read these cards you know classic sci-fi 6075 files do
2:39:59like you know i mean even 2001 era but it or just you know anything like buck
2:40:04rogers like the way you know the future was gonna be like white and clean and
2:40:09smooth shapes everywhere but like you know some kind of inexplicable bridges
2:40:16and textures though you know yeah by stormtrooper like this time on his back
2:40:22and I'm sure someone with a text book notes but like that you just it was
2:40:26always smooth but there was these lumps and they seem purposeful and I look like
2:40:29a tree I actually it might just be because I've got star wars on on the
2:40:33mind this week but I actually thought this is a real storm trooper II looking
2:40:39thing it even has a little bit of black around the cut-out for the camera in a
2:40:46way that it's not white but sort of like an off-white and yet the ridges the
2:40:50extra ridge's some of them seem which see maybe a little inexplicable there's
2:40:55a certain stormtrooper enos to it was made for the the next version to look
2:40:59like the surface of the Star Destroyer with little green laser ever they are
2:41:02all over the pipes and everything
2:41:04thinking about other ways this case could have existed like the back of a
2:41:09nexus 7 like the old Nexus 7 I don't think so
2:41:13like rubber and had like cross hatching
2:41:16this could have like a little while ago golf ball what has you know concave
2:41:25things or could be the opposite of convex things like a bunch of like bumps
2:41:30on that I mean they could have been textured in so many different ways they
2:41:33get into just completely athletically speaking because it's not our maybe
2:41:36there'll be some functional group there but this one is there's one month but
2:41:41the surface treatment is actually smoothies all seem like intentional
2:41:45athletic choices that weren't necessarily foregone conclusion that
2:41:49there is some kind of philosophy behind this design textures gonna come back at
2:41:57some point that I feel like we're in Europe when texture is sort of fallen
2:42:01out of favour perhaps largely driven by Apple but it'll it'll come back
2:42:05eventually remember the hoes at the fair which case it was the ones with holes
2:42:08cut out on it the colored ones with holes cut out from Apple colored what
2:42:13cases oh yeah the ones for the five-seat bread and yes they would show the words
2:42:21through and/or complaining about how didn't like center on the word correctly
2:42:24but that was essentially textured because you have these holes in the case
2:42:27that would feel like you feel ya
2:42:30was gonna be good for the show I was gonna say cuz you know everything they
2:42:37make them is made out of this I don't even know if they called be blasted
2:42:40anymore but it's this aluminum that has the same deal don't have this aluminum
2:42:44MacBooks have this feel even my iMac has the same is made of the same stuff
2:42:49eventually they're going to switch to a new material from aluminum yeah we're
2:42:54talking about an ATP few times especially with respect and honesty
2:42:57aluminum and glass thing is going to seem as barbaric a CRT video displays do
2:43:05to us now like you mean it was this big heavy glass thing with like a land on an
2:43:08electron gun like how was the class in like that just seems barbaric aluminum
2:43:13glass bones like the idea that you know for our grandkids the idea that if you
2:43:17dropped your phone break like you like we were using the glass shampoo bottles
2:43:23on the prowl again like why would you bring glass the showers the stupid one
2:43:26to use plastic but right now my glasses were made out of glass shattering just
2:43:33going to your eyeball it is likely that you do you have class like it took them
2:43:39awhile to get to that and you know that lots of plastic and plastic is pretty
2:43:42good material to especially for radio reception and titanium but like they
2:43:46want people in my class because I feel like it's just a higher quality
2:43:49experience like it feels nicer and more expensive glass obviously the screen is
2:43:52better than plastic as we learn from the iPod Nano like the plastic scratch that
2:43:56you want something is scratch-resistant for the screen and then although member
2:44:00the back has 23 GS's plastic but the you know and they use glass for the forum
2:44:06for us
2:44:07Mike aluminum glass is a pretty solid combo right now and to get better than
2:44:11it you basically need something that's not going to shatter the display and for
2:44:18the back part I guess you probably have to go with something that's equal
2:44:21strength but lighter so like graphite composite + really hard flexible screens
2:44:26you know or as I've always get the thing down to the size and weight of a credit
2:44:30card it really doesn't much matter what material you make it out of because he
2:44:33drop your credit card on the pavement just like it's not nothing's gonna
2:44:37happen
2:44:37ways to handle that air resistance becomes a factor that doesn't even fall
2:44:42that fast and if it does it's flexible enough that it's not going to shatter a
2:44:45break I thought of an idea is thinking about drops it was watching Jonas play
2:44:49destiny and he jumped off a giant cliff and it seemed like he should have taken
2:44:54damaging didn't say how come you don't take damaging as I you just get on your
2:44:58feet or something you like a jet you play the game so you don't need to give
2:45:02me his psn name that's clever and I watched so it's more like your boba Fett
2:45:11you jump off a thing and at the very end you just get back a little bit to slow
2:45:14down I thought you know that would be a clever thing for iPhone dropped a little
2:45:19bit as the jetsons solution to this problem
2:45:23jets just enough at the last moment to gently land but you're right you know
2:45:32something that happened something I think everything is going to seem
2:45:35barbaric is the way that with everything made out of aluminum that they're like
2:45:41you can imagine how much broader Apple is sending to China every single day
2:45:47that's just being cut into these shapes by the CNC machined
2:45:53the great thing about them is all the shavings in scraps and crafts they come
2:45:56off the machine like all the material that is removed I can just go back into
2:45:59the whole recycling thing is that you know it's not it's not waste in the
2:46:03sense that you can use recycled melted back down and another angle and comes
2:46:07back to you but it's a tremendous amount of stuff cutting which is incredibly
2:46:12difficult process
2:46:13yeah I might like but it's it's what they settled on every summer we all we
2:46:18all saw the development of like how can you make a story laptop that's also been
2:46:21with two dozen creek or cracker breaker feel cheap and they tried lots and lots
2:46:26of different things and boy this one with the original MacBook Air that the
2:46:30machine doubt he's aluminum just seems great I mean eventually I get to the
2:46:33point where they're kinda get into the now the MacBook 1 North like strength of
2:46:37materials and this thickness to me feel like I can take this MacBook MacBook on
2:46:42as a TV parlance for the MacBook little as one part of the side of it just it's
2:46:46just called the MacBook anyway
2:46:47been this over my needs it looks like I might be able to just not a comfortable
2:46:52feeling like eventually aluminum becomes no good because at certain things you
2:46:59know thickness of a very thin you can bend it and it stays bent and that's not
2:47:03really a good thing that's why you think that things like carbon fiber where they
2:47:07bend but spring back and they're also very light very strong so well they
2:47:10switched to this year to a new aluminum for the phones so they look the same the
2:47:16success in success + are made from this new 7000 series whatever they want to
2:47:21call it but it's Apple's new fancy pants version of aluminum and who knows maybe
2:47:27there have you know maybe maybe this will be a take a lot longer than I think
2:47:31maybe a couple years from now they're gonna have 8000 series aluminum I don't
2:47:34know but I kind of feel like by upgrading the aluminum the views that
2:47:38they're sort of approaching this is as good as it's going to get there because
2:47:45it's kinda like samurai swords where you can pick like flexibility or hardness
2:47:49and you want to know
2:47:50hardness on the on the edge the sharp edge because you want to be sharp and be
2:47:54able to cut through things but that harness to the whole blade to blade will
2:47:57shatter when you have something for you to court that's flexible right so going
2:48:01with it with aluminum like that they're making up these things that you can make
2:48:04a luminol you can decide to I wanted to be very strong and hard road I wanted to
2:48:09be like a malleable and flexible and not not the shower in like with aluminum
2:48:15ladder now as well we still wanna make the bonds really thin we want to make
2:48:18them harder to bend and so can we make it so this is stronger aluminum
2:48:22hopefully maintain the weight but at a certain point like if you know like
2:48:26aluminum foil certain point it's gonna bend you need is a material that springs
2:48:31back is not going to spring back so you will reach a limit in thickness where a
2:48:38limited to just a non-starter because if you just keep saying we'll just make it
2:48:41so strongly you can't bended that will you won't be able to do that at a
2:48:45certain point between now and then so a revolution will come eventually and I'm
2:48:49sure Apple has been for many years now researching what will replace the limit
2:48:53them if anything and i think is it time to try to be great for radio reception
2:48:58and it would spring back better than than aluminum does then we would have to
2:49:02worry about then get as much but you know can be manufactured in the design 3
2:49:07want to weaken machine carbon fiber yep the mold and it's really complicated and
2:49:10super expensive and so I think I'll be waiting awhile from the land of fantasy
2:49:14rumors based on violence and served as the liquid metal stuff that people have
2:49:19been fantasizing about four years who knows maybe there's something like that
2:49:22are in the Jets Jets thing you could have a material where where you can bend
2:49:28it but if you subjected to some sort of like if you put a backhand heater or
2:49:31you're like a plan electricity goes back to the original shape remember that yeah
2:49:35i do remember that the circuit boards inside don't really like spending too
2:49:39much either by the way my last break and then we can talk about Star Wars I won't
2:49:45tell you about it I'll a sponsor it's a good friends at Harry's now the holiday
2:49:49season is here this show will be airing tomorrow December 14th I think it's up
2:49:54till December 18th free shipping is over but they if you were up to the 18th
2:50:00holiday shipping economy shipping for the holidays and on the 18th so you got
2:50:05a couple of days this year probably listening to it if you're a fan of the
2:50:08show because I feel it is going to be big news the craig Venter he was on the
2:50:12show you've got till December 18 you can order you can pay for economy shipping
2:50:16it'll get there before Christmas
2:50:19what a great gift if there's any kind of men fathers brothers husbands in your
2:50:23life you can just buy the holiday kit they've got these holiday kits with
2:50:29razor blade with the handle with some shaving cream and stuff they sent me one
2:50:34that had this facial stuff you know you know you clean your face with it I like
2:50:40it is good my skin looks good with it
2:50:43really cool stuff awesome you know packaging this is one of the things you
2:50:47give them a gift he wanna give somebody give with razors to fight him these
2:50:51harry's things he opened it up it looks great makes you look like you have good
2:50:55taste
2:50:56go there check out these holiday kids and really great prices too high quality
2:51:04blade high-quality shaving creams and lotions and gels whatever you want in
2:51:09the thing so go there is save yourself the hassle I hate Christmas shopping
2:51:14good God Almighty this is the worst so I'm people stuff from sponsors of the
2:51:20show and get a mattress and get a machine kit from Harry's where do you go
2:51:26to find out more go to Harry's dot com and then use this code talk show
2:51:33know that their code either use that code and you'll save five bucks off your
2:51:38order and remember you got to the 18th December 18th 2015 and you can still get
2:51:43it
2:51:43express shipping for the holidays
2:51:49I'm worried to death about I've had two things on my mind the last week john
2:51:53i've had found out I stressing over this interview with Craig victory and wanted
2:51:58to do a good job with that and I don't want to have a Star Wars boilers and now
2:52:04I've got this interview out of the way we've got a little nasal post interview
2:52:07discussion with me and you about it I feel a great sense of relief in there
2:52:11are right now as I speak to you on Sunday December 13th now break out into
2:52:16a sweat worried about spoilers for the four seconds later you can just hide in
2:52:20your house I gotta go to an officer with people who people who may be watching
2:52:24the trailers in reading every single thing they can find out about these
2:52:27things and as you approach that you're right it's like when you get close to an
2:52:29Apple event like the day before that's when the real start coming like oh you
2:52:34know here's what's actually going to come out and you find that after the
2:52:37fact that actually that you know seven hour before thing with a hundred percent
2:52:40true my friend Moises Alou he's down in Austin he's big film fan he he's trying
2:52:49to get any easier
2:52:49his way into the press screening done there which is Tuesday morning but I
2:52:53think the big the big one is in Los Angeles tomorrow I think it's on Monday
2:52:58so I feel like and the critics I think usually know you know to keep to keep
2:53:03their spoilers themselves but that it's not just like it's not a critics on the
2:53:06screening my calls for anybody who's anybody in hollywood can go to the
2:53:10screening on Monday night
2:53:12blab about whatever the secrets are so that I don't know what to do like the
2:53:19stupid think pieces that are gonna be like I can't believe they did this thing
2:53:23and Star Wars have a big think piece about what it means for the franchise
2:53:26like no one's even seen the movie and don't have to think pieces on that and
2:53:30that's gonna make people go like that that's what I read the story and i dont
2:53:35wanna know so and I can't hide from the world like I can I can ignore the
2:53:39internet but at this people of the office who have read the thing pieces
2:53:42into discussing how amazing is the jar Jar Binks comes back and destroys
2:53:45everybody I got on here about it right and I'm so worried that it will it'll
2:53:51pop up in one of those you know I can get to the bottom of an article on most
2:53:55news sites today
2:53:57and they have these other things around the web you might wanna know I am so
2:54:04worried that they had you know what the headline and it'll be right there in
2:54:09front of course will be because it'll be a think piece that assumes everybody
2:54:12already knows this and it's like an hour want to discuss this I am i dont know
2:54:19it's almost like worst that I've been successful at keeping myself almost
2:54:23entirely spoiler free and I also have a good ability about ability in the long
2:54:32run but at least for this movie I can willfully forget something and so so
2:54:41like I can't even think there's been like at least two minor spoilers that
2:54:47I've encountered in the last few weeks and as I speak to you right now I can't
2:54:52bring them to mind and I think I could if I tried but i've i've you know
2:54:56there's weird ability in my mind to compartmentalize where i've i've kept
2:55:00him away and when I see them in the movie about that but I'd forgotten but i
2:55:05dont number that I can do that I'm trying to just like not think about the
2:55:10things I already know the future because I think about them off the aircraft
2:55:13outside just like I just avoid that part of my mind I don't even think about that
2:55:17I don't know if that's gonna work for the same type of thing like once it was
2:55:21like yeah I could have derived from the information i had at hand but I didn't
2:55:26want to so here's what I've done I just to be clear I did watch the first
2:55:30trailer and then I instance soon as it was over I was excited and then type it
2:55:36play again and watched again and then I thought shipp why did I watch that I
2:55:40shouldn't watch that I feel like I've already had and I i know that Gigi
2:55:45Abrams is sort of an anti spoiler director and largely it seems so far
2:55:50they've kept a lot of stuff under wraps it really seems like I could be wrong
2:55:54maybe there's other websites like the whole thing it spoiled I haven't seen it
2:55:59I trusted him to make a trailer that didn't really have spoilers I wouldn't
2:56:03say that it did I think it was a good trailer but I still regret it I still
2:56:07regret it I regret that i've seen the stupid lightsaber with the side blades I
2:56:14mean I i watch the first trailer to just because I was so desperate to not like
2:56:18what is this going to be like like what is what is it even gonna look like they
2:56:24were going to go with this franchise it could have was gonna look like the
2:56:28trailer for Prometheus and be like it dark and gritty was gonna look like
2:56:31tomorrow and be happy like it like how it but is there are taken stores gonna
2:56:37be so I felt like I had to watch the first trailer but after that I have been
2:56:41off tonight so far my barriers how the pretty well through a series of filters
2:56:45and people are nice to me everything but the one place has been tearing down the
2:56:50television shows almost almost any wanna tell you this but I discovered by thirty
2:56:56seconds giving threads on my Tivo as the 32nd skip on by Kathleen frame that my
2:57:03mind to register as Star Wars will come by and it was enough for me to know that
2:57:07oh my god they're running they're running Star Wars t vs I don't know if
2:57:10you knew this but I'm on television their ads for this movie I did and it's
2:57:14my my weakness for sports got me I was watching i watch the Dallas Cowboys
2:57:20Redskins on Monday Night Football and apparently it seemed to me is though
2:57:25that Disney had purchased a commercial in every city at least one homer in
2:57:32every single commercial break
2:57:33Lake true carpet bombing marketing campaign and there is you know there's I
2:57:41took to like skipping through the commercials like with my this is the way
2:57:47you can do it but I'd skip through the commercials with my good clothes I was
2:57:54only using by listening with you could hear my damaged left
2:57:58which I could still see certain things and had like a sense of some things that
2:58:03were going on and that's a red lights at least the details were blurred out yeah
2:58:09when I saw that the single frames I got nothing from it and i was i was
2:58:12satisfied with that because like most numbers easier framed and like once
2:58:17every spike shows that was the one frame depending on where it landed but the
2:58:20other day the very first commercial like the very first commercial in the
2:58:25commercial break was a star is on and I got like half a sentence like you know
2:58:30you're not yet to find the remote you gotta pick it up again in like I was I
2:58:33was too slow on the draw in the Old West I got shot I really don't know how this
2:58:39week is gonna go especially once people start saying I got my ticket my first
2:58:43screening is Thursday night which I'd simply cheating to me if it if it
2:58:47premieres on Friday I don't know how I'm going to attend o'clock Thursday I
2:58:52mention this because of that it was at a writer not the store after the Aurora
2:58:56shooting in Colorado that the midnight showing stopping at midnight I i feel
2:59:00like that was happening before that but so it's like it's like it so my 10
2:59:05o'clock Thursday night screening is a midnight screening but there's like an
2:59:08asterisk which is we know it's not like they do 7 p.m. screen but give the
2:59:13midnight show is now 7 p.m. it's like you know Christmas tree brings to the
2:59:17midnight showing of the Wednesday before ya like the Saturday night seven o'clock
2:59:21mass Catholic
2:59:23well recall it sunday sunday someone must have my my show is on Thursday as
2:59:28well so then Friday I'm gonna spoil everything for everybody else I just
2:59:36feel so much better if I make it into that and like I said they'd be the most
2:59:39dangerous time I saw the most dangerous times when you're waiting in line and
2:59:44people coming out of the theater especially if the fear that doesn't
2:59:47exist to help the back like if the people who are done saying we walked
2:59:50past the people who are still waiting to see the movie too pretentious yeah yeah
2:59:55famous to everybody as famous steven parker
2:59:55famous to everybody as famous steven parker
3:00:00stories of waiting in line for The Empire Strikes Back and in some deep
3:00:04shit runs by and purposefully screams at the top of his lungs dorothy is Luke's
3:00:08father and the age of Internet trailing I remember seeing this terribly YouTube
3:00:12video of someone driving a car passed the people lined up waiting for like
3:00:16whatever was the fifth book some Harry Potter book was something dramatic
3:00:20happens other people than expected that people are waiting in line at the
3:00:24bookstore and get like an open letter by the copy the book and someone like films
3:00:27at four YouTube drives past and yells a phrase that I'm not going to yell
3:00:30because well Harry Potter bunch of little kids let's do this but yeltsin to
3:00:34the entire line and the worst part is like they don't know if it's true he
3:00:38could appear person could be making stuff up but in your heart of hearts
3:00:42like as you're reading the book as they approach you like that country's right
3:00:46to be rude don't be that person that's the worst thing ever
3:00:51what's the only Star Wars movie that doesn't take have some part of it take
3:00:54place on tattooing has it one of the fake ones now it's not one of the empire
3:01:01gathered all the fake ones have seen some special
3:01:08addition to that Empire da remember just added cars on the Jedi who knows what
3:01:13the hell I would like to cut away as big circular white from day to day going to
3:01:20asteroid field they they cut to the Droid two earlier on the stand or like
3:01:26like when they first start hunting for the Millennium Falcon Lake that there's
3:01:30a phone call from Darth Vader to the boba Fett enjoy Jabba's palace career I
3:01:36need it looks really concerned about is like how did those bounty hunters all
3:01:40get onto the desktop I want to see them change your diet like that he took like
3:01:44evaders shuttle taking him from point A to point B so are confused about how he
3:01:48arrived like the closet here whenever they're in their spaceships you need to
3:01:52see it I think I don't want to get into it that some of the additions like
3:02:01there's the when you get into the list of lightweight was taken out of the D
3:02:04specialized or whatever you want to call it the ones they were taken out of the D
3:02:07specialized you no shame is that prints or the you know what was added to the
3:02:12specialized everybody thinks of hotshot on shooting first and all of these
3:02:16gratuitous things in the ridiculous CGI backgrounds they put behind the windows
3:02:19of best man in all these things that really really stand out or or the
3:02:23god-awful CGI stuff they added to most guys in a new hope
3:02:29it's the little things though like your anger your boiling anger is over these
3:02:33big changes that really stand out and just don't add anything and take away
3:02:38some of the magic but then when you read some of the little things that Lucas had
3:02:43added you like what this man went insane like it's the little things that make
3:02:47you realize that that somehow lost his marbles the one night I had forgotten
3:02:52about until I was reminded I think in some slight channels on where they were
3:02:55talking to you about it was the day about when our tickets bit out of the
3:02:59swamp creature and the actual line in the movie as you're lucky you don't
3:03:04taste very good that's what Luke system which is a good laugh line you know
3:03:07whatever firstly situation and it changed it to a less funny line like
3:03:11it's not like he was like you're lucky you got out of there but no no the first
3:03:15the first one was better it was adding a little bit of levity was sarcastic it
3:03:19was and Luke is kind of like sarcastic grin and a little bit cranky and that
3:03:24seemed to its preference like you like you know taste very good you're lucky
3:03:27you got out of there that's your improvements like you know when you
3:03:29bring some and the punch of the script this is the opposite
3:03:32unconscious down it it's that's a perfect example maybe the canonical
3:03:38example maybe that's the best example because it it sounds inconsequential but
3:03:43it was a little funny and it's not funny at all and it also was like establishes
3:03:49the characters it is like hey Luke and are to have a friendship right is not
3:03:56just a device that owned by Luke he's you know there's a rapport between these
3:04:01two and you know everybody has seen the first one knows there are two D two is
3:04:05clearly a sort of sarcastic wise ass right he's a wiseass robot you don't
3:04:11know what he's saying but you can tell from 3 p.m. is responses that he is a
3:04:15wise ass
3:04:16and Luke is giving it back to it actually is meaningful in some small way
3:04:21in terms of shaping the relationship between the characters it and it fits
3:04:25perfectly messy like I think the one of my favorite cuts database occurrences
3:04:29where Michael Lucas just think he just crashed ship everything's all crappy and
3:04:34it's like is drawing was attacked by a monster and spit out he's covered with
3:04:39water as recover the money like I know we're doing here and aren't you like to
3:04:43end the scene are true expels mud room on his back and my comment basically
3:04:49sums that up just like slapstick slapstick comedy comedy and also
3:04:54commentary on the situation we're just you know what this is crap we're we're
3:04:59not doing well they're so too rapid what what is your expectation think there's
3:05:06going to be a movie that makes you happy or you think it's gonna be another
3:05:09disappointment to you have shown us you should put the US ever talked about on
3:05:14the show notes in Campbell about anticipating
3:05:19to some but I said there I'm of two minds about it on the one hand when I
3:05:25might wanna little breasts are to get depressed because I'm like there is just
3:05:30no way that this can be as meaningful to me is the original three movies I would
3:05:34just like you know whatever like I start to think that there's just no way this
3:05:39can be as meaningful me to me because things you experience in your formative
3:05:42years always have a certain extra amount of impact but on the other hand I said
3:05:48well but isn't it possible it's not as if as an adult
3:05:52it is impossible to get the possible to be affecting and I will try to do is
3:05:56think of what media movies or whatever have seen as an adult
3:06:01have like really stuck with me and effectively just miss lee to put like
3:06:04what what is the bar like have I just become such a great individual that no
3:06:08movie can really get to me so I should just put that out of my mind the stores
3:06:12is not going to be like that and when I came back to his like a lot of the
3:06:15Miyazaki movies I saw as an adult
3:06:17really stick with me in a meaningful and important movies that I would put it
3:06:20right up there with the Star Wars movies and then maybe the not as big because
3:06:23they've brought into them
3:06:24price on this adult miss me when I'm doing it reassuring myself that movie
3:06:28can get to and that's the top bar and then the other thing had to say is like
3:06:34so you've decided that you as an adult
3:06:37able to be affected by what we what if you watch this movie this new Star Wars
3:06:41movie and it's merely a pretty good movie are you ok with that and when I
3:06:44used as a Star Trek movies like the reason reboot star trek's I enjoyed
3:06:48those and when I rewatch them I said you know this is a fun movie but I don't
3:06:52really care that much about Star Trek's it is way less baggage there but but
3:06:55I've been trying to think about is if I go into this movie is not the most
3:06:59amazing movie ever saw but it competently made its fun exciting I have
3:07:04fun watching it do I say yeah but it was Star Wars and it's supposed to be way
3:07:08better than that or do I am I able to enjoy it the same way that I can enjoy
3:07:14the Star Trek movies that I care way WAY less about and I don't know what the
3:07:18answer that is but it really comes down to it I think I believe it is possible
3:07:23for for this movie to be really important and meaningful
3:07:27I think it probably won't be and I'm trying to be ok with with it merely
3:07:32being a good fun movie just me being so much so excited that it was like the
3:07:36people I my big fear is I feel like the big problem with the prequels was
3:07:42whether somebody on weekend we've talked to talk about the midline on this show
3:07:46and others but to meet at a fundamental level it's that the characters were flat
3:07:51and the dialogue is flat and there is no comma robbery and and no sand in it and
3:07:57then plot wise and story was there is no sense of mystery in fact the whole point
3:08:01of the prequel trilogy was to explain all the mysteries that the original
3:08:05trailer trilogy light on
3:08:08and I've said this before like it always seemed like the original trilogy could
3:08:12have you know any rumors from when we were kids that Lucas the next three
3:08:16movies wouldn't be after the return of the Jedi they would be before when Ben
3:08:21Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker were younger and it always seemed like well of course
3:08:26he could do that because my god there's so much stuff that they could explain
3:08:29what the hell the clone wars were the Emperor came to be how the Emperor
3:08:32Empire came to be all of these things could you know could be a movie but the
3:08:37fact that they were were mysteries or gently vaguely alluded to it gave away
3:08:44to the original trilogy that the prequels didn't have called they tried
3:08:47to do is piss away and explain everything right down to explaining how
3:08:51the forced word I don't think that's gonna be a problem I feel ajja ajja
3:08:56abrahams knows how to do is have engaging characters in a sense of
3:08:59camaraderie and and good at syria good ear for dialogue my big concern is that
3:09:07the modern needs or or perceived needs in hollywood of a big budget action
3:09:14movie are such that there's no way you know it's still gonna be filled with a
3:09:20hundred and ten minutes of CGI action chases yeah talk about that in the
3:09:26context of like modern movie-making sensibilities biggest star trek's again
3:09:33as example you see in those red yes I like to pressure ya specially like the
3:09:39first one yeah and so those definitely look at Star Trek with modern
3:09:46movie-making sensibilities and I like them like I thought they were enjoyable
3:09:49but you have to say like those movies are Star Trek as re-imagined through the
3:09:56lens of a modern filmmaker and for the Star Wars things I i really fervently
3:10:02hope that jay jay is a big enough Star Wars fan that what they do what he does
3:10:07instead is
3:10:09you know if this certain Star Wars magic that I wanna feel this movie not that
3:10:15it's any worse or better than modern movie-making sensibilities but it's a
3:10:18different set of sensibilities that inform the original trilogy and I feel
3:10:22like those those still work and are still fresh so I want this movie to feel
3:10:26like Star Wars first and foremost I don't want to feel like Star Wars as
3:10:31seen through the lens of a modern filmmaker
3:10:34continuum things like you're on one side or the other but I desperately want this
3:10:39and again I use Miyazaki's my music movies about all sorts of different
3:10:44topics across decades but they all feel like Miyazaki movies so I'm ok with this
3:10:49movie being different from the original trilogy in fundamental ways but it has
3:10:53to feel like Star Wars shouldn't feel like a modern movie a modern reimagining
3:10:59of stars I wanted to feel like just these three after that
3:11:04find that totally re-imagined everything about it but I want these three movie
3:11:077892 feel like Star Wars yeah that's a good way to put it I agree and it was a
3:11:12it is it's almost like a branding thing you know that there was a certain way
3:11:17that the original series just lacked bombastic it seems I mean the space
3:11:25battle in Return of the Jedi sort of I think said that set the stage for modern
3:11:30action movies and it was so awesome at the time and I do love it and it's one
3:11:34of my favorite things in the return of the Jedi it's fantastic
3:11:38the way that the ships are so dynamic and the camera moves around and stuff
3:11:42like that but
3:11:43it's it's if you'd just use it stopped watching measure how much of the movie
3:11:48is taken up by that battle it's actually very little because it was so incredibly
3:11:52hard for them to do it you know that the computer-controlled where everything was
3:11:55actually like an actual model ended in the modern filmmaking where it's once
3:12:02you have all the stuff setup you can just let like you know like it the way
3:12:06the transformer movies where they're really just two hours eg ID chases
3:12:11through us you know where transformers are throwing themselves into skyscrapers
3:12:15and trying to think about what is the make something feel like Star Wars a lot
3:12:20of it is the limitations of motion control cameras and the you know the
3:12:24seventies and eighties right that define the look of the space battles because
3:12:28what can you do with remote-controlled camera with you this move that move that
3:12:31move in this movie optically composite them together and that kind of defines
3:12:35it but also stuff that didn't have any new technology like how its courthouses
3:12:39like music behind everything hurts or Castro like that's not the modern way
3:12:43movies are scored that is that is an older way movies are scored like it's
3:12:47not not done you know John Williams doesn't put orchestra behind the
3:12:52Transformers movie during like every scene like Star Wars movies are
3:12:55practically musicals for the amount of music within them and the type of music
3:12:58is weird old style of music so you can go a long way towards making me feel
3:13:03like Star Wars without you know like yes you can do anything it's easy but make
3:13:09it feel kind of like stores any can you can do a twist I like in the trailer
3:13:13that we both saw the the camera movement around the Millennium Falcon was doing
3:13:18all these strange maneuvers couldn't really do that easily with remote
3:13:21control camera especially with the crazy background that our thing you can do is
3:13:24TJ's but in some sense it still feels Star Wars because lots of the swoopy
3:13:29moves where the cameras following the ship in the ship was twirling around
3:13:32this is just like that
3:13:35cranked up a little bit more it is the difference between that and like the
3:13:39like the fancy fancy way that hon piloted the Falcon into the asteroid
3:13:44crater in Empire Strikes that it was like this exuberant straight up straight
3:13:51down paper clip you know like you motion
3:13:54show you the show off type accompanied by ascending and descending scale the
3:14:01soundtrack ran aground Williams with a total the star wars type thing and
3:14:07comparing it to like member did you watch the Battlestar Galactica reboot
3:14:10birdies to do the thing that made it look like the Vipers or whatever were
3:14:16being filmed by someone with a hand-held camera faraway so shaken and they would
3:14:20do that they really dramatic zoom in to acquire the ship and then try to get it
3:14:24centered in the frame like someone trying to catch like a long how Mary
3:14:28pass like a cameraman trying to where the hell is the football I got a new man
3:14:32these days so that the hell marion like they were held the camera back the whole
3:14:35time don't have all the ball anymore whatever the hell happened to NFL Films
3:14:39think spiralling towards you that take any way you can you can make something
3:14:45you like Star Wars and be modern without making it look like Battlestar Galactica
3:14:50like all of a sudden everything is handled shaky cam and their stickam the
3:14:54trailer some I cannot say you can't use shaky cam you totally can adjust
3:14:58overall I want the movie to feel like I'm part of that to me is that to you
3:15:04have to let certain scenes just just let them breathe and don't worry about
3:15:07whether there's a lot going on like give us something that's a mystery give us
3:15:11something new and then just let us figure it out like some of my favorite
3:15:15scenes in the original trilogy or just like r2d2 by himself just off and the
3:15:20desert on Tatooine and you just slowly what's r2d2 roll across the desert but
3:15:24there's it's engaging because you're like well where the hell is this robot
3:15:28going yeah like Empire my favorite like this there's so many scenes the dan like
3:15:35with with the mud being spit out that's the end of that scene before they cut to
3:15:39a different one is like how does that it does not conclude with a line or an
3:15:43event or a call to action to contend with the feeling just showing like
3:15:48something you know you're a walking off into the misty Swapan Lucas and stay at
3:15:52the camp like something is going to happen when you're left with the feeling
3:15:56how are the characters feeling this morning I did Jack did or the hopeful
3:16:00are they cautious are they afraid
3:16:02that's so much more important than ending every scene with a call to action
3:16:06that leads to the next and we have to do the whatever and then go show the one
3:16:09ever has I get excited about this movie Amy keeps reminding me of the movie AI
3:16:16and which was written by Stanley Kubrick producer credit but it came out after he
3:16:24died but the basic story is that he was a movie he had been discovered had been
3:16:30developing for a long time many years and decided that he didn't want to
3:16:35directed at Gilbert should directed because it needed a warm human empathy
3:16:40that he knew that his movies lacked coldness would be the wrong way to
3:16:44approach it and so he called up Steven Spielberg and said you know I got this
3:16:48movie would you want to work with me and Spielberg is a huge coup Bert van and
3:16:52they'd been friends over the phone for years
3:16:54ok and in poor guy died but Gilbert made it anyway and we're going to see it
3:16:59opening night of course I could not wait to see it opening night and I pause and
3:17:03another friend with me and my friend and I just said I just want to make a
3:17:08prediction here I think there's a very strong chance to we're about to see the
3:17:11greatest movie that ever seen any other Spielberg movies like that he's got
3:17:17human worth that's what I said going into seriously I said in all seriousness
3:17:25I wanted it like I wanted the being right points I think we might be going
3:17:32to I believe there's a good chance that we might be going to see the greatest
3:17:35movie that I mean that the day I was incredibly terrible but it was not get
3:17:41it missed the mark I think most people agree I don't think it makes it it's not
3:17:45a bad movie but it is certainly bad given the pedigree of the so that's
3:17:51that's baby keeps providing you with the force is weak and strong protections but
3:17:56now we're cautiously optimistic
3:17:59everything going for like the thing I think about this movie that the things
3:18:02that they did it to exist is the reason exists at all lucas tells gets him out
3:18:07of the pictures that were not to worry about his pillows messing with things
3:18:12and who they get to directed the guy who's basically admitted so many times I
3:18:17like that he's super big star Wars fan like when he when he directed Star Trek
3:18:22Online what kind of a shame cuz he's always said it's not a big star wars
3:18:25phineas and I'm sure he like Star Trek I'm sure he'll do a good job but why
3:18:28wouldn't it be great if you could you start but now he's done Star Trek
3:18:31there's no way he's got a Star Trek and Star Wars well he got to like
3:18:36essentially warm up on the lesser franchise Star Trek right and pound and
3:18:40hone his craft over a series of movies and television shows over the years and
3:18:45then you could say like he's at the top of his game now filling his childhood
3:18:49fantasy as anyone child did you know child in a similar age to direct a new
3:18:54Star Wars movie and he's the guy doing it right now there's been created
3:18:58tensions between him and people who are running the franchise and that kind of
3:19:02makes me worry about the future this whatever but boy the stars really
3:19:06aligned for both US and JDM to have I like to do errands I like his other
3:19:10movies I like they got to practice on star track and I really hope that he
3:19:14liked uses all the skills and all his powers in the Godfather parlance
3:19:18just like put everything he has into this this you know it's it's his
3:19:23childhood dreams as long as well as aris tied up in this movie I really hope it
3:19:26comes together so I I'm optimistic we'll see how it goes anyway
3:19:33John Siracusa thank you for your time has been extremely generous of you we've
3:19:37gone on Craig didn't take all my time as you know I told you weren't gonna get
3:19:44you john was worried when I asked him to do the show that he'd get short-changed
3:19:48on time because of the battery segment not to worry just make a three hour show
3:19:53whenever big long big long healthy holiday meal
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3:20:06Squarespace you can build your own website and password you can buy a
3:20:08mattress which I'd again I'm telling you what a holiday gift idea
3:20:13John Siracusa you can find him on his weekly podcast with the other guys ATP
3:20:19accidental tech podcast ATP . FM and he's just at Syracuse Twitter anything
3:20:27else you covered thank you john thank you