The Talk Show

136: ‘Fully Charged Pencil’, With Special Guest Jason Snell


00:00:00   as we record we are recording on Thursday November 19th I have seen [TS]

00:00:03   reports now on Twitter that people are saying that the Apple pencils are [TS]

00:00:08   actually starting to appear in retail stores I thought he was in in San [TS]

00:00:12   Francisco and there's a whole bunch of them available yesterday when the [TS]

00:00:17   Wednesday the 18th there are a lot of reports that it looked to me like the [TS]

00:00:22   they were making an effort to get them out like a whole bunch of reports like I [TS]

00:00:26   saw five of them here and there were twenty of them there and I thought that [TS]

00:00:30   was a good sign and there's more that today so it looks like whatever was [TS]

00:00:34   going on [TS]

00:00:35   whatever logistical bottleneck was there may be as as if not installed itself at [TS]

00:00:43   least has widened the bottleneck a little bit I'm curious to see what [TS]

00:00:46   happens to people who like we're promised three or four weeks shipping [TS]

00:00:51   dates a week or two ago whether they start getting them earlier than promised [TS]

00:00:56   or whether the shipping lines will take as long as they had done yet that's what [TS]

00:01:00   I wonder sometimes if Apple has really thought through the whole dichotomy of [TS]

00:01:05   shipping vs Apple store in a retail store pickup because the Apple TV I I [TS]

00:01:11   wonder how many returns they're going to get where people bottom the moment that [TS]

00:01:14   it was for sale [TS]

00:01:16   Adams had them shipped on the cheaper shipping so they would get them the next [TS]

00:01:20   week and then found that they were all in the Apple stores on the on the day [TS]

00:01:23   that's what I'm to me I just got my box and just put the label back on and send [TS]

00:01:28   it back out because three days earlier I just walked into my local Apple store in [TS]

00:01:31   and pick one up and this is like that to a little bit where it's like you know if [TS]

00:01:36   you could get one in the retail store and your order says it's gonna be four [TS]

00:01:40   weeks out that's you know that's sort of silly I mean I get I get why they don't [TS]

00:01:44   want to turn people away who want to buy an iPad pro at the retail store and won [TS]

00:01:48   a pencil with it they want to kind of have a pencil for them but I would be [TS]

00:01:51   frustrating if you were waiting at home for it for months [TS]

00:01:56   yeah and I just like when you show it to people it's like just showing it to [TS]

00:02:03   somebody if I didn't have the pencil I would [TS]

00:02:05   I honestly don't even know what I would tell them there's a bigger bed yeah I [TS]

00:02:10   mean and they keep people definitely want to try the keyboard and you know [TS]

00:02:15   it's you know and it's interesting to it's easy to imagine a big iPad it is [TS]

00:02:20   different actually sit down in front of it and use it but just from the first [TS]

00:02:25   minute or two everybody wants to use the pencil yeah how could you not how could [TS]

00:02:30   unite and even though it's not like you're having been styluses 44 iPads [TS]

00:02:35   before but this is the you know it's the Apple stylist so it's got that kind of [TS]

00:02:39   Attraction around it and the idea is it sounds like it's bearing out for [TS]

00:02:42   everybody we know who actually knows about drawing things like to call it [TS]

00:02:48   really does deliver on that that its precision is pretty amazing and that on [TS]

00:02:52   absent been updated the lag is very very minimal yeah yeah totally I i think it's [TS]

00:03:01   very high and the palm rejection is all bearing out as best I i've been traded [TS]

00:03:08   likes figure this out and look at how they're doing the palm rejection and I'm [TS]

00:03:14   sure to probably more than this but it seems like the two things I can tell [TS]

00:03:17   that they're doing is no one is obvious which is kind of looking for what I'll [TS]

00:03:22   just call a fat touch meaning like the media part of your palm and just [TS]

00:03:27   rejecting it outright that wow that is that is either an enormous the harm or [TS]

00:03:32   that that the palm but the other thing that they're doing is like drawing mode [TS]

00:03:37   I could see it in the Notes app when you're in little sketch mode in note is [TS]

00:03:42   sometimes when you put your palm down you'll get a false hit and it'll put [TS]

00:03:48   like a little drawing mark there it's hard to see sometimes you have to look [TS]

00:03:52   at it at an angle because your palm actually covers it but it puts like a [TS]

00:03:56   little false Denmark down but then as soon as the touches it just says oh ok [TS]

00:04:01   using the pen throw that throw that last market way in which i think has [TS]

00:04:05   something to do with their they've got this whole touch coalescing thing I mean [TS]

00:04:08   they're trying to they're trying to you it's not a one-to-one it's a little bit [TS]

00:04:11   like to correct your typing I think where it's it's trying to look [TS]

00:04:15   holistically it sort of like what it's getting input on the screen and make [TS]

00:04:18   some judgments [TS]

00:04:19   and they may be sort of in real time they're trying to figure out what [TS]

00:04:22   actually is going on instead of just it being I think the old-style touch [TS]

00:04:26   screens were much more about 121 kind of thing it's what it's not I'll tell you [TS]

00:04:30   what it's not is its not washing out everything but the pencil because you [TS]

00:04:34   can actually I don't know if you've tried this but if you put two fingers [TS]

00:04:37   down on the screen in notes you'll get the ruler to actually bring up the ruler [TS]

00:04:42   and then you can with your other hand you can draw on the ruler the ad and [TS]

00:04:47   yeah with the pencil so it's not like it's locking out the scream from other [TS]

00:04:52   from fingers like it that's not it is looking for that media blob of the side [TS]

00:04:58   of your hand or or the butt of your view of your poem and realizing what it is [TS]

00:05:05   and saying I'm just gonna ignore that right and if it does get I wonder if it [TS]

00:05:10   may be but it i think is probably some kind of reasonable distance you know if [TS]

00:05:17   you had if you had a finger way apart from the pen it's gonna know that that's [TS]

00:05:22   not a touch from the hand holding a pen because too far away it's like that [TS]

00:05:25   distance of when you're gripping a pencil in a you know a pencil grip that [TS]

00:05:30   that touched it may be like what is it about two or three inches away [TS]

00:05:34   ok that happened a half a second before the pen drawing that's the one that [TS]

00:05:39   their own way [TS]

00:05:40   yeah you're right I just actually did it where I I put my finger and the pen down [TS]

00:05:46   simultaneously very close to each other and started moving and and that the [TS]

00:05:51   finger marks started and then vanished because you're kind of good going along [TS]

00:05:56   with the pan you you are meant to be there I think long long story short its [TS]

00:06:01   we can go long or as short version but I think that even though I'm not an artist [TS]

00:06:09   I just appreciated and I just like playing with it and I'm excited by it [TS]

00:06:14   that it's one of the most exciting things Apple's done in a long time like [TS]

00:06:17   this is the sort of thing that we looked at Apple to do and now they've done [TS]

00:06:22   yeah this is why I feel like right there they [TS]

00:06:27   so much of the story of this product I think in hindsight is stuff that Apple [TS]

00:06:33   really didn't make much of an effort to integrate into the iPad until the moment [TS]

00:06:37   when Apple wanted to build its own thing that was integrated hardware and [TS]

00:06:41   software and so you get all the keyboard stuff and I S nine is really leading to [TS]

00:06:46   the smart Keyboard and the reason that they haven't done high-resolution [TS]

00:06:50   digitizer you know more two hundred and forty megahertz scanner on the digitizer [TS]

00:06:58   why didn't they do all that stuff as they they weren't ready for it and now [TS]

00:07:01   they're ready for it and and so the the pencil is the gets to be first out the [TS]

00:07:06   door cuz of course it is cuz it's the Apple accessory yeah it was it you know [TS]

00:07:12   what they're like a teardown of the pencil finally I think there was one I'm [TS]

00:07:16   not sure I read it but they did I think they did take it apart I still don't [TS]

00:07:22   think anybody has figured out exactly how it works but from what I've been [TS]

00:07:26   able to piece together I don't think I was wrong in my review when I guessed [TS]

00:07:32   that there is some kind of new center like something in the iPad to detect the [TS]

00:07:40   pencil instead I'm almost certain that what's going on is that the regular [TS]

00:07:45   touch sensors in the glass are still touch still detect skin the same way but [TS]

00:07:56   that they've added into the exact same layer the ability to detect the pencil [TS]

00:08:01   and the way that the pencil makes itself known as it emits some kind of radio [TS]

00:08:07   wave of some sort [TS]

00:08:08   known very specific frequency but that it's not a different thing that picking [TS]

00:08:15   that up it's actually the same as the touch sensors and that somehow it's like [TS]

00:08:23   the radio wave stuff is so precise is that that what allows it like if you [TS]

00:08:27   imagine that it's a grid of centers with capacitive touch where it touches your [TS]

00:08:32   finger it's always looking for a bunch of them to light up it wants because [TS]

00:08:38   you're you know it's like a little [TS]

00:08:39   inch round fingertip that's touching into its lighting up all of these want [TS]

00:08:44   and then with a pencil it's right down to the actual pixels [TS]

00:08:49   including the ability to sort of tell when it's between pixels yeah I mean I [TS]

00:08:55   don't know enough about this [TS]

00:08:56   to something funny is going on of course because we know that because you can't [TS]

00:09:00   use it on another screen it is it is not trying to trick the device into thinking [TS]

00:09:05   that it's a it's a really thin finger right right something there is some what [TS]

00:09:10   whether it's a radio signal or it's an electric signal of some kind that's not [TS]

00:09:16   the kind that you would pick up from from a finger there's something going on [TS]

00:09:20   where it's it's doing it and getting that precise you know exactly where that [TS]

00:09:25   the pencils and went and then and then it also is talking by bluetooth [TS]

00:09:29   registering the pressure zone is when it's down and long story short I'm [TS]

00:09:33   nearly certain that they didn't add a second Center grid for it what they did [TS]

00:09:37   is make the existing centres grid smarter and and have it looking for this [TS]

00:09:43   other new things short-term radio bursts here's a weird thing that I didn't write [TS]

00:09:49   about I haven't really seen anybody else write about but I still am not sure what [TS]

00:09:53   to think about it but it really seems very strange to me is the fact that [TS]

00:09:59   there is no there is no interface to the pencil other than plugging it into the [TS]

00:10:04   lightning port so you you charge it that way and you register it with the iPad [TS]

00:10:11   that way but then once you do that once you have a fully charged iPad are pencil [TS]

00:10:15   when you have a fully charged pencil and it spared you never turn it on [TS]

00:10:19   never turn it off and you never get any indication that it's on off low on [TS]

00:10:24   battery or anything [TS]

00:10:25   yeah it's like a joke sometimes about Apple saying magical a lot and about how [TS]

00:10:33   it wants to make its products kind of black boxes that you can't look into [TS]

00:10:37   this pencil is is like I'm gonna I'm going to pander to you and say this is [TS]

00:10:43   the this is the pencil that's on the desk that Gableman wakes up in right it [TS]

00:10:48   is like it look human we have made a pencil and it's perfectly white and [TS]

00:10:53   a little bit silver slick kind of object that it does I know it's shaped like a [TS]

00:10:57   pencil but it can't really be a pencil right and that's what it feels like to [TS]

00:11:01   me is it has no interface you're right it has no markings other than the little [TS]

00:11:07   silver circle and yeah you can get the lightning port if you take the cap off [TS]

00:11:09   and you can unscrew the tip but it is featureless it is just i mean it is [TS]

00:11:13   literally featureless like not just like its looks of features but its features [TS]

00:11:19   its you don't do anything with it except dry it's it's very clever and I think [TS]

00:11:23   it's also very much in line with Apple's design philosophy which is to have as [TS]

00:11:28   little as possible [TS]

00:11:30   yeah it's we've we often joke about Apple stuff that they try to ship stuff [TS]

00:11:34   with one button but ultimately they want to ship something with no bio button and [TS]

00:11:38   the pencil is the no button device theirs and there is this part of me that [TS]

00:11:44   kind of want to lie to have like a green just a little green dot lights up when [TS]

00:11:51   it's on and being used and then turns off when its sweeping or whatever but [TS]

00:11:57   now here I am you know two weeks later and I don't have that and it's never [TS]

00:12:01   been an issue like I kind of see why they didn't do that but I just threw it [TS]

00:12:07   wakes up based on some but based on emotion or something or based on based [TS]

00:12:11   on I don't even know what it is I don't save some battery when you when you lay [TS]

00:12:15   it down it doesn't move for a while or something right it says it seems too I [TS]

00:12:19   still haven't even reached hard today and I've been playing with it for two [TS]

00:12:22   weeks or something i dont i dont it definitely gets long battery life so it [TS]

00:12:27   can't be sitting there committing these waves you know until it's in use but on [TS]

00:12:35   the other hand to like if it was just in your backpack though moving moving [TS]

00:12:39   around as you walk around I don't think it's on I'm not quite sure when it turns [TS]

00:12:44   on or what that means or maybe like a lot of these things you like in the way [TS]

00:12:48   that you or your iPhone can use the motion co-processor to count your steps [TS]

00:12:59   and it's not really having a significantly adverse effect on the [TS]

00:13:03   battery life of your phone compared to all the other things that can actually [TS]

00:13:06   bring your fun maybe they put like the equivalent of like a little m6 in the [TS]

00:13:11   pencil and it's always there kind of detecting similar things I don't know [TS]

00:13:16   but it's kind of crazy isn't a while though that it doesn't even tell you if [TS]

00:13:20   it's on off or low on charge it sits featureless it's empty it's just a blank [TS]

00:13:26   right it's just an implement you hold in your hand and use it against the glass [TS]

00:13:30   surface and things happen is that the big downside to it is that if it is out [TS]

00:13:37   of battery the only way you're gonna know that is by like having it fail on [TS]

00:13:43   screen like you're gonna go to use it and you're going to stab the screen and [TS]

00:13:49   it's like the experience of figuring out your pencil is running as ran out of [TS]

00:13:54   power is exactly the same as the experience of having a pencil that isn't [TS]

00:13:59   yet paired with your iPad I think the difference is that your iPad knows how [TS]

00:14:04   much battery is in there and if you not only can you swipe down in in [TS]

00:14:08   Notification Center it will there's a batteries thing that will show you the [TS]

00:14:13   iPad's battery and also the Apple pencils battering and I would have [TS]

00:14:18   imagined I would imagine that it tells you that the iPad tells you when you [TS]

00:14:23   need to charge for a pencil so I just wipe down and I can see that this pencil [TS]

00:14:26   that I'm holding my hand is 26% battery but that's the interface it's on the [TS]

00:14:30   iPad it's not you know it's on the pencil I think I screwed myself by like [TS]

00:14:35   I at one point in the match review process I just left it plugged in and [TS]

00:14:41   I'd used it a lot depends on when I plugged it in and for no reason it [TS]

00:14:45   wasn't like it was out I just plugged it in and left it plugged in and it's [TS]

00:14:48   obviously filled back up and so I haven't run it back down here but yet [TS]

00:14:53   they say I screwed myself because I really did wanna kind of see what you [TS]

00:14:57   know does it give you a warning like that [TS]

00:14:59   I haven't seen it give me a warning yet but I I can see that it's a 26% so [TS]

00:15:07   that's like the one place where I can I can tell that it's communicating beyond [TS]

00:15:10   the actual drawing is that it tosses in a little battery info into the [TS]

00:15:15   Notification Center I had lunch today with Lauren director for millions of [TS]

00:15:25   Twitter to refresh tweety etcetera etcetera hadn't said he hadn't seen it [TS]

00:15:30   to a broader long and then he got to play with it and his first comment was [TS]

00:15:34   in a story like we said about sort of like this [TS]

00:15:39   2001 style industrial design or like you know futuristic space alien to me this [TS]

00:15:45   pencil that it is absolute it so he said that this is such an Apple device it is [TS]

00:15:50   so beautiful but also this is not a material that anybody has ever used to [TS]

00:15:56   create a pen out of before like nobody's ever made a pen or pencil that is slick [TS]

00:16:00   yeah and it's not to say that it's slippery and I don't know that it's even [TS]

00:16:05   a problem but it is a sort of material that nobody would have ever used for [TS]

00:16:10   this before [TS]

00:16:12   little slippery I guess it reminded me of a mean pencils depending on you get a [TS]

00:16:17   brand new pencil out of the box and it's good that fresh coat of enamel paint on [TS]

00:16:21   it it's not that far off from that I think the difference is the man used two [TS]

00:16:25   pencils that have you know that they're they're not round their flat there there [TS]

00:16:30   there whatever pic cycle or octagonal they've got a little flat surfaces to [TS]

00:16:34   come together to make the pencil and this is just perfectly smooth and [TS]

00:16:37   perfectly round and it would roll right off your desk accepted the weighted so [TS]

00:16:41   that it will stop I will say this you know we can we can do all I can to our [TS]

00:16:49   show just on stationary [TS]

00:16:51   and intense but a very very popular style of ink pencil I mean talking about [TS]

00:17:00   real real pens here are like pilot chief [TS]

00:17:05   threes I don't use the pilot anymore but the jelly you know the cookout right [TS]

00:17:10   here [TS]

00:17:10   g2 which you know I used ones from zebra there's a couple of other brands but you [TS]

00:17:18   know there they started in Japan now they're very popular in the world but my [TS]

00:17:22   point is they all all of them shared design thing which is down where you [TS]

00:17:26   grip it there's like a piece of rubber which just to me seems like total common [TS]

00:17:32   sense but it I don't know I'm curious what people that one of the things I'm [TS]

00:17:37   curious now that the pencil is going from ok Apple release anything it's a [TS]

00:17:41   novelty to ok people are actually using it is what are the people who are going [TS]

00:17:46   to use this thing for like hours of the time for work going to say about the [TS]

00:17:49   ergonomics of them [TS]

00:17:50   materials and stuff like that yeah sure that it's comfortable I i'm not i'm not [TS]

00:17:57   either but again I'm alright I don't think pens in general are comfortable I [TS]

00:18:00   don't like right hand writing once I could stop turning in my papers and [TS]

00:18:04   school handwritten and start typing them all I was a very happy person but yeah [TS]

00:18:08   it struck me right away that there was no I'm I've gotten used to the grip on [TS]

00:18:13   the g2 at the bottom there's no clip on it and I guess maybe that goes back to [TS]

00:18:19   the sort of Apple philosophy of the friend John Siracusa calls the naked [TS]

00:18:25   robotic or like [TS]

00:18:27   make it build a product for its essence almost knowing that if you want to add [TS]

00:18:31   something to it people will build things to add to it but that Apple if Apple [TS]

00:18:35   adds those things on then you can opt out of them and I feel like somebody's [TS]

00:18:40   going to want to make a group for it and somebody's gonna wanna make clip for it [TS]

00:18:43   and a little inkwell kind of thing for people to to stash it when they're not [TS]

00:18:47   using it all those things will be made for it but Apple wanted to kind of get [TS]

00:18:51   it all the way to its base and whether that's right or wrong I mean I think [TS]

00:18:54   depends on whether you like holding it in its basic form if if if there are a [TS]

00:19:00   lot of people think don't know I just want this and nothing more [TS]

00:19:02   it would kind of be a shame if it had [TS]

00:19:04   other things on top of it I wonder how do I don't miss another one of the [TS]

00:19:09   things that probably if it's not out already there's gonna be that's gotta be [TS]

00:19:12   play some kick starters from people who are going to make replacement caps that [TS]

00:19:16   the only difference is that it has a clip or even or even just some kind of [TS]

00:19:22   asymmetrical now been so that it doesn't roll it all right a little clip on clip [TS]

00:19:28   so you can put in your pocket or something I think would be a natural and [TS]

00:19:30   I'm sure somebody's already got that 3d printed and ready for Kickstarter yeah [TS]

00:19:37   it's almost like and I feel like that's also sort of Apple's decision on on the [TS]

00:19:43   much observed point that there's nowhere to put it officially meaning let's just [TS]

00:19:50   say compare and contrast with the new where there was an official place to put [TS]

00:19:55   the stylist with the Newton was a socket right in the top of the news and [TS]

00:20:00   obviously that design work for this because the pencils actually thicker [TS]

00:20:03   than the iPad or if it isn't it's so close that it there's no way that a [TS]

00:20:09   socket would have voted for it but they wouldn't have done that anyway just [TS]

00:20:14   because I think that there's not really their style anymore I'm a little [TS]

00:20:19   surprised there isn't an optional you know something and probably they look to [TS]

00:20:22   and just couldn't find a way to make it makes sense I mean you can use the [TS]

00:20:25   magnets and clip it to the side magnetically but they're probably not [TS]

00:20:28   strong enough to really reliably leave it there and blessing and wanna do is [TS]

00:20:32   have it fall off and break on the floor so you know instead it's just find [TS]

00:20:37   another place to put it and figure it out well and I was a little surprised I [TS]

00:20:44   mean this goes all the way back to September because I could see you know [TS]

00:20:47   in a hands-on area that this was the case because they had that the coverage [TS]

00:20:50   for it but on that day I was a little surprised that they didn't have on the [TS]

00:20:54   smart cover and smart Keyboard something you know whether it's just that you [TS]

00:20:59   could stick it in or a magnet or something you know something on the [TS]

00:21:03   cover that is meant for awhile [TS]

00:21:06   ok can't connected to the iPad pro itself but if you get our cover or [TS]

00:21:10   keyboard there's a little place here you can put your pen [TS]

00:21:12   pencil and they didn't do that and i guess its because not everybody gets the [TS]

00:21:20   pencil and so then that would put the pencil would look you know if you got [TS]

00:21:24   the cover but not the pencil it would look like you're missing a pencil you i [TS]

00:21:28   think thats I think that's behind a lot of these decisions is it is not as much [TS]

00:21:33   as we all talk about it and write about it it is not an essential feature of [TS]

00:21:36   this product and so you can't build it with the assumption that everybody's [TS]

00:21:41   gonna have one exactly i mean take a break here thank our first sponsor and [TS]

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00:23:34   show 10 lines of code can be done so you had a piece one of the reasons I want to [TS]

00:23:42   have you on the show I thought it really really a code my thinking on this and I [TS]

00:23:47   touched on it but skipped about it is this whole issue of ok now that with the [TS]

00:23:54   iPad pro and with iOS nine and where it is today can you use your iPad can use [TS]

00:24:02   an iPad Pro for work which is sort of it I I think the problem is that it's not a [TS]

00:24:06   fair question I feel like you need to specify what the work is but I thought [TS]

00:24:10   you had a good piece that was more or less for some definition of work yes and [TS]

00:24:15   for your work mostly but that it's with 20 some years of Mac experience under [TS]

00:24:24   your belt and all of this stuff maybe the answer is still just that you don't [TS]

00:24:29   want to [TS]

00:24:30   yeah I counted 2689 is when I started using the Mac I remember I actually [TS]

00:24:38   remembered from your article that it was exactly 26 because it was such an uneven [TS]

00:24:42   number if you get it must've been exactly right but I didn't want to say [TS]

00:24:44   that because I just I went with 20 so I know twenty-some well I could be even [TS]

00:24:50   worse but it's probably better yeah it was my my sophomore year in college and [TS]

00:24:55   I was started working at the newspaper and they were all match their online [TS]

00:24:58   Apple too so i'd used them a couple of times before but that was the point [TS]

00:25:02   where I stopped using my Apple to basically and I did all my work on the [TS]

00:25:05   on the max at the newspaper office even my school work because I didn't want to [TS]

00:25:09   go back but that's a lot of that's a lot of history I think it's absolutely true [TS]

00:25:15   that you can't say the ie the iPad and iOS in general are not possible [TS]

00:25:21   tools to use to do your job I mean yeah they're gonna be jobs where the software [TS]

00:25:25   isn't there and they're very particular as the internet right so people are [TS]

00:25:28   going to say well actually my profession I can't do I grant you their profession [TS]

00:25:34   that were you can't but if you're talking my general kind of look at [TS]

00:25:37   spreadsheets and I write documents and I answer email and the kind of business [TS]

00:25:41   jobs we think out and I'm on the web [TS]

00:25:44   across iowa back into that I think my realization in spending like so many of [TS]

00:25:51   us who write about these products have done over the last few days which is [TS]

00:25:54   used the iPad pro a lot to try to do things that we don't normally do on an [TS]

00:25:59   iPad it became clear to me that it was not the issue wasn't couldn't do it the [TS]

00:26:04   issue was the migration thing it's like you know some for something to be worth [TS]

00:26:09   migrating to hear from a place where you're really comfortable and you've set [TS]

00:26:13   up like I've got scripts and you you're like this too i know i get scripts I've [TS]

00:26:18   got a workflow I've got absolute get everything set up i feel like i've seen [TS]

00:26:21   super optimized what I do on my Mac for me over the course of twenty six years [TS]

00:26:27   and it get it for me to switch from that to something new you know there's the [TS]

00:26:33   hit you have to take it to learn new apps you have to learn new automation [TS]

00:26:37   processes you've got to put in invest hours and hours of time to get back to [TS]

00:26:43   where you were and that's that's a pretty decent calculation that you can [TS]

00:26:47   make you can say look even if it's as good as the markets today and let's just [TS]

00:26:52   granted that you might that might not be worth it because there's too much effort [TS]

00:26:58   that's going to have to go into it to move over there or when you get there [TS]

00:27:01   it's going to turn out that you're not quite as effective united as fast as as [TS]

00:27:06   as you were on the Mac and so I would say that I I came to the realization cuz [TS]

00:27:11   I had a lot of Pakistan logic and I have a bunch of people say well you should [TS]

00:27:15   really try audition from Adobe an end I had the same sort of thing which is [TS]

00:27:19   addition might be better than logic I'm not sure if it is 44 what I do but let's [TS]

00:27:23   say it's arguable that I would be better off [TS]

00:27:26   editing an audition logic that's not good enough it's gonna be a lot better [TS]

00:27:29   because I'm gonna take a hit [TS]

00:27:31   huge hit when I move and have to learn a new thing and sometimes it doesn't mean [TS]

00:27:37   you don't never seen are learning anything but sometimes the math doesn't [TS]

00:27:40   work where it's like it's incremental better but I will be so far in the hole [TS]

00:27:45   in terms of my learning that I'm never going to be it's never gonna pay off a [TS]

00:27:49   loan payoff for years and years and you don't know until you try whether it's [TS]

00:27:52   actually going to be better and not so that was my realization with with the [TS]

00:27:56   iPad is that probably 90% of the things that I've got set up to do on my Mac I [TS]

00:28:00   don't use very often and I don't need to bring over I i dont need to list like oh [TS]

00:28:05   I've got a hundred scripts in BBEdit then I need to change it's probably not [TS]

00:28:08   that but there are things that I would have to adapt to and and you know that i [TS]

00:28:13   think is gonna be a problem for everybody [TS]

00:28:16   fortunately we don't have to switch right i mean i I can foresee using an [TS]

00:28:22   iPad when I travel now in a way that I couldn't foresee it a year or two ago [TS]

00:28:27   not abandoning the Mac entirely but using the iPad as a substitute when I [TS]

00:28:32   want to travel light I could see that now but you know that requires me to put [TS]

00:28:36   in some time and and change my workflow and some of the things that I do and and [TS]

00:28:40   adapt to new tools but it's it's a matter of choice and for somebody who's [TS]

00:28:44   younger and who doesn't really have those ties and hasn't super you know [TS]

00:28:48   automated their their computer experience then that barrier is [TS]

00:28:54   completely gone [TS]

00:28:55   yeah and and a couple of ways [TS]

00:28:59   podcasting is a pretty fine example right because editing podcast they [TS]

00:29:07   didn't mention that people are saying you should recommend you switch from [TS]

00:29:10   logic to edition on a tarmac but you did find you there is a new iOS app so you [TS]

00:29:18   actually edited an episode of being comfortable on the iPad what's the name [TS]

00:29:24   of the app the app is called ferrite f er IDE yeah and it's free with two [TS]

00:29:31   in-app purchases it's basically if you went on like all the features it's $20 [TS]

00:29:35   but you can try it without you can unlock half the features or 10 [TS]

00:29:39   go by the other half for 10 and yeah I tried it I actually I tried and I was [TS]

00:29:44   thinking wow these guys who wrote this totally read my mind and then later I [TS]

00:29:48   discovered that they had read my site and ads and have been listening to your [TS]

00:29:55   shows listening to Europe during like well I you know one of the things that [TS]

00:30:00   would keep me from being able to work on and I iPad would be I need to add [TS]

00:30:05   podcast and if I wanted that it podcasts on iPad I would need this this this and [TS]

00:30:10   all these features are in ferrite which is why it was that moment like my mind [TS]

00:30:14   and it turns out no they're actually reading what I've written and they were [TS]

00:30:17   working on it but that was like I I think it was a good I did inspire the [TS]

00:30:21   app but I think I to be created but I think I may be inspired some of the [TS]

00:30:24   future choices that they made which is awesome because that's great for me it's [TS]

00:30:28   really nice when somebody built a nap and keep you in mind when they're doing [TS]

00:30:31   it but i also forgot that in June the guy wrote to me and said you have any [TS]

00:30:35   sample files cuz I want to use like real world examples and I sent him an episode [TS]

00:30:39   in Kabul that was down to the just to the tracks and I said here it is and I [TS]

00:30:42   totally forgot about it and i sat down and edited not remembering any of that I [TS]

00:30:47   added an episode in you know it's the thing I I did this with logic once I did [TS]

00:30:53   this with audition once before I switched to logic I definitely tried it [TS]

00:30:56   will you take a run at an experiment could I use other tools to do this thing [TS]

00:31:01   that I do every week that is mission critical that if if I'm if I'm 25 [TS]

00:31:05   percent slower I i'm going to not be able to do my job is like literally i've [TS]

00:31:10   i've got it totally wired and it needs to be fast and it needs to be like this [TS]

00:31:14   or I can't switch and I i expected to get ten minutes in and be like well it [TS]

00:31:19   was a nice try [TS]

00:31:20   iPad but this is not gonna happen and like an hour and a half later which is [TS]

00:31:25   about 22 hours it's the standard time it takes me to edit an episode of the [TS]

00:31:28   income people I had edited the entire episode about halfway through I was like [TS]

00:31:32   oh man I'm actually good at this whole thing right here and it was pretty great [TS]

00:31:36   I mean there were some issues it was a lot faster when I have the keyboard then [TS]

00:31:41   when I was just doing touch but it was pretty it was pretty great and some of [TS]

00:31:45   that was the screen size and some of those the power although I think I could [TS]

00:31:48   probably do it on the iPad [TS]

00:31:49   air but that was a funny moment where I realized that when I have the right tool [TS]

00:31:55   the iPad was was great for that sort of thing yeah I do think I think there's [TS]

00:32:02   just a step back a little bit where we were five minutes ago which was this [TS]

00:32:07   when did you first start using a Mac and that transition from using something [TS]

00:32:13   like a command line interface is the main interface to the computer to the [TS]

00:32:17   GUI I do feel that we are that this is the same type of transition a little [TS]

00:32:22   early except that one was it was different in a few ways for me at least [TS]

00:32:29   where the difference with the command line to GUI transition was that it was [TS]

00:32:35   going to replace it for everybody that this is clear that for almost everything [TS]

00:32:40   and obviously know used Macs today still ship with the terminal app and I know [TS]

00:32:45   that for example the main news I can think of is people who do like system [TS]

00:32:50   administration type things just use you know terminal and SSH connection and for [TS]

00:32:55   good reason that there's a really good remote interface to something that might [TS]

00:32:59   be slow and there are things that you can do remotely administering a faceless [TS]

00:33:06   server that the command line is just fine for if you're an expert but real [TS]

00:33:10   from ninety-nine point some very large 10th digit you know nobody needs to ever [TS]

00:33:17   see that whereas with this transition I really do think that Steve Jobs is [TS]

00:33:22   trucks and cars analogy is just an amazingly good analogy which is there [TS]

00:33:30   for whatever reason we made everybody drive a truck for a long time until we [TS]

00:33:35   finally got good enough it doesn't come up with ideas that were more like a car [TS]

00:33:38   but you know just go out on a highway in any state in the country and you're [TS]

00:33:44   going to see an awful lot of people who drive pickup trucks but it's clearly not [TS]

00:33:48   the the majority and there's no reason for the community thing what struck me [TS]

00:33:54   about it is is [TS]

00:33:56   so many of the arguments with the same right it was like well when you start [TS]

00:34:00   using a Mac back in the day it was what you can't do I can delete every file [TS]

00:34:05   with this name in it by just typing quick command in das and can you do can [TS]

00:34:10   you do that I can write a program and run it and you know you can't do that on [TS]

00:34:14   the Mac and totally true right totally true but that's what we had our own ways [TS]

00:34:19   right we had our own dirty things that we did that weren't those ways that they [TS]

00:34:22   were right about those but in a different it didn't do those but that's [TS]

00:34:26   the same argument with the iPad is not powerful you can't do this thing you can [TS]

00:34:29   do it [TS]

00:34:30   totally true you could it was that they the argument about being able to leave [TS]

00:34:36   to delete like every file with the same you know extension you know what was the [TS]

00:34:41   document for Dell was like the equivalent of our end right that you [TS]

00:34:46   could do start out star sure tell your Dell star . txt or something like that [TS]

00:34:56   such a bad argument because being in it because it was a command that was you [TS]

00:35:01   know like there was no wonder who it was you know it's like about how I can I [TS]

00:35:09   mean I can take this thing right I i my car can go a hundred and fifty like okay [TS]

00:35:13   well good luck with that you know if you're not on the Autobahn that's [TS]

00:35:16   probably not that practical and you make it yourself kill good good for you that [TS]

00:35:22   your theoretical go that fast but it was a point of pride and flexibility and I [TS]

00:35:26   you the same things when people when I read about the iPad and I'm not federico [TS]

00:35:30   VTG rate I don't I'm not a 99% on the iPad but I i'm open-minded enough about [TS]

00:35:36   it that I hear from people who are like no never [TS]

00:35:39   because of X&Y that it doesn't do that you're right the Mac does those things [TS]

00:35:43   in it doesn't I'm not sure in the end that the people who are going to want to [TS]

00:35:47   use the product those things are going to matter and the fact like the fact [TS]

00:35:51   that it doesn't do Apple script and it doesn't have it doesn't have some of the [TS]

00:35:55   automation utilities that run in the background stuff that's true but it's [TS]

00:35:58   got its own scripting and its own automation utility they're just [TS]

00:36:00   different and there we are [TS]

00:36:03   OS iOS nerdiness is there already it's just not the same as Mac nerdiness [TS]

00:36:08   and you know that's going to be off-putting for some people I don't know [TS]

00:36:13   what the truck before I see what your saying in in some ways but I don't think [TS]

00:36:18   it's going to be a matter of that that the touch interface is inappropriate or [TS]

00:36:23   that the devices aren't star powerful enough I'm starting to think and that's [TS]

00:36:27   why I mentioned 26 years of using the Mac I'm starting to think that it's [TS]

00:36:31   gonna be in some ways generational that it's that it's like I'm more comfortable [TS]

00:36:35   using these tools and this way and this industry is more comfortable with these [TS]

00:36:40   tools that are used this way and I'm not sure that people who are you know your [TS]

00:36:46   kids aged my kids age are going to feel that way or even people in like in their [TS]

00:36:52   twenties or thirties people who haven't invested like in their computers as a [TS]

00:36:56   nerdy platform but just as a standard tool that they used to get things done [TS]

00:37:00   because it's you know I do think that these [TS]

00:37:05   the iOS devices are capable of doing this stuff that's not the issue it's not [TS]

00:37:09   like you know you can't load a couch into the back of your car but you can't [TS]

00:37:12   into a pickup truck it's it's more like maybe like I will get with self-driving [TS]

00:37:16   cars were some people are going to want to drive her own car and the people I [TS]

00:37:20   don't care it's about like what what's your preference and what tools are you [TS]

00:37:23   comfortable with and I don't think there's anything wrong with that I think [TS]

00:37:26   anybody should feel threatened that Apple feels very strongly like the Mac [TS]

00:37:31   is is a tool and iOS is a tool and you can use them as you choose and further [TS]

00:37:37   for the right jobs and I think that's a good attitude to have that you know it's [TS]

00:37:41   not either or and people shouldn't feel threatened by one or the other but they [TS]

00:37:46   do something totally diff right and and like I heard from some of the likes of [TS]

00:37:52   you know and and you're listening to people whose email me and and sort of [TS]

00:37:57   angrily denounced Tim Cook this is wrong it started with Tim Cook telling the [TS]

00:38:02   newspaper in England that he won't be stopping Europe I don't know but he was [TS]

00:38:08   like an extended trip in Europe he was visiting a couple countries over there [TS]

00:38:12   and he said that for this trip all he's tall he carries with him as his iPhone [TS]

00:38:18   and his iPad pro and presumably as watch in fact I'd somebody somebody pointed [TS]

00:38:24   out that in one of the pictures he's clearly where is what no surprise and I [TS]

00:38:29   heard from readers who are like that's BS you know maybe if you're an executive [TS]

00:38:33   you've got a staff that travels with you they can do your work you can do your [TS]

00:38:36   work with it but it's like I think people underestimate a lot of people [TS]

00:38:39   underestimate how how there are a lot of jobs in a lot of places where you can be [TS]

00:38:46   really could just do your job with nothing but communication tools really [TS]

00:38:51   if you can read on the device and you can send email do I message and / or [TS]

00:38:59   whatever similar type thing if it's mostly about communicating you can [TS]

00:39:04   easily do all your work with an iPad iPhone or even just about yeah and and [TS]

00:39:10   our audiences are you know they're they're they're more advanced than a lot [TS]

00:39:17   of people they care about this stuff to a degree that a lot of people don't i [TS]

00:39:21   think that that i think thats all all true but that's why when I hate to be so [TS]

00:39:26   productive because everybody's different everybody has different needs and [TS]

00:39:28   they're gonna be some people I talk to them and said they say can I do excuse [TS]

00:39:32   to become a switch to Mac or PC I have these needs and sometimes I would just [TS]

00:39:36   say I don't think it's a good idea right times it's just it's the tools are there [TS]

00:39:40   I I know my dad was a dentist in and they talked to other dentists would say [TS]

00:39:46   what about this and I'd be like you know all the dentistry software is on Windows [TS]

00:39:49   so you should probably just get PCs I wish I could help you but you know this [TS]

00:39:53   is probably the safest option and the same is true with going I S but when I [TS]

00:39:57   look i mean i i was talking to David sparks the other day and he said to me [TS]

00:40:01   it was funny said to be something I'd been thinking in the last few days using [TS]

00:40:04   the iPad pro witches did you know I think word is better on iOS than it is [TS]

00:40:09   on the Mac and its I totally agree I think Microsoft Office on the iPad is [TS]

00:40:14   way better than offices at least for my uses and in my testing with it then it [TS]

00:40:19   is on the max just it feels really good it's a really bizarre class of the [TS]

00:40:23   platform kind of apps and I think you know they're a lot of people whose jobs [TS]

00:40:27   are entirely microsoft office and email it in you can use outlook for that [TS]

00:40:31   whatever and the web and and that's those are their jobs and they're not [TS]

00:40:36   specialized in anyway and those kind of jobs were you not having to dive deep [TS]

00:40:40   into a particular vertical platform thing thing why not do that on an iPad I [TS]

00:40:47   mean are you want to use an external keyboard or not to say that you have to [TS]

00:40:51   but you could so I'm taking a break but when we come back and this is where my [TS]

00:40:58   podcast amnesia strikes and what I want to talk about next is gonna go right [TS]

00:41:02   from there into the lack of thought that maybe I thought but the lack of of [TS]

00:41:12   running code that lets you use the iPad with a keyboard connected in other words [TS]

00:41:18   that you can't nap moralist why can't you navigate the whole interface with [TS]

00:41:21   the keyboard but first I want to tell you about a good friend Squarespace you [TS]

00:41:28   guys to Squarespace Squarespace is the easiest way to build a website you just [TS]

00:41:39   go there so you wanna have a personal website you want to make a blog alright [TS]

00:41:43   let's say you want to start a podcast or let's say you are a business that you [TS]

00:41:48   want to set up an online store any of those things you can do with Squarespace [TS]

00:41:53   where space is just like it it's like Legos for building a website it is so [TS]

00:41:59   easy and they take care of everything they you can register your Domain with [TS]

00:42:03   them they obviously take care of the hosting but they've got these great [TS]

00:42:07   drag-n-drop visual tools templates to choose from both in terms of setting up [TS]

00:42:15   a style like a visual style for what you look like or just the templates for [TS]

00:42:20   setting up different types of sites like the difference between a portfolio if [TS]

00:42:25   you're an artist you're setting up portfolio site [TS]

00:42:28   to show off all of the work that you're done they have that built-in as it as [TS]

00:42:32   something that you can already start with and just make it work [TS]

00:42:36   everything looks professional you go through Squarespace to get a [TS]

00:42:40   professionally designed website you don't need to learn don't know any sort [TS]

00:42:45   of coat it is intuitive easy to use [TS]

00:42:48   you don't need it your programming a website you're creating it visually but [TS]

00:42:52   if you do know how to code there are hooks that you can break in you can [TS]

00:42:56   insert your own JavaScript that's your thing so you can customize it if you [TS]

00:43:00   want to [TS]

00:43:01   huge website they can handle all of the traffic you're ever gonna get and it [TS]

00:43:08   starts they have plans that start at eight bucks a month so here's what you [TS]

00:43:13   can do you can go there you get a free trial no credit card required just go to [TS]

00:43:17   score space.com and when you do sign up just remember the code is Gruber my last [TS]

00:43:24   name just remember that and if you use that when you do sign up for Squarespace [TS]

00:43:28   you will get 10% off your first purchase when you do it so just keep it in mind [TS]

00:43:34   next time you need to build a website go to Squarespace first and remember that [TS]

00:43:37   code grouper [TS]

00:43:40   so we want to i want to talk about this I wrote touchdown this is my review and [TS]

00:43:44   more and more I think like if I continue writing about the iPad bro I think it's [TS]

00:43:48   the main down and write about I love the pencil but I feel like because I'm not [TS]

00:43:51   an artist I it's not really for me to go into depth about it but i did i do you [TS]

00:43:56   secure water it and I really more I think about it the more it drives me [TS]

00:44:03   crazy that that this is not more deeply integrated into the eye pen and here's [TS]

00:44:10   what I'm thinking I think it comes down to [TS]

00:44:13   all right when they first made the iPhone and he said [TS]

00:44:17   Steve Jobs is up on stage he's talking about how what they did he says it runs [TS]

00:44:21   OS 10 and it's this you know for years and years and years everybody who'd you [TS]

00:44:26   know we've had this what if Apple could do a stripped down version of Mac OS [TS]

00:44:29   that would run on a smaller device I mean it I say Mac OS because I would say [TS]

00:44:34   that the dream of a quote unquote stripped-down Mac OS that runs on a [TS]

00:44:38   handheld device even predate Mac OS and here it is they finally done it and it's [TS]

00:44:44   you know wow how did they do it and and it's not by running Mac apps rate and [TS]

00:44:51   there's no menu bar there it's like they went back to Ground Zero and rethought [TS]

00:44:55   the entire user interface and there are certain things that carried over like [TS]

00:45:02   the idea that there's a nap and to launch the app you double-click on the [TS]

00:45:09   Mac you just tap it on the phone [TS]

00:45:10   very similar other things very different right like buttons were the same push [TS]

00:45:15   button you tap would you do with a push button [TS]

00:45:17   well the same obvious thing to do on a Mac you know what you would click on the [TS]

00:45:20   Mac you tap here [TS]

00:45:22   other things though very different I feel like with the iPad and to me [TS]

00:45:28   especially with the iPad pro and when it's hooked up to a keyboard if all you [TS]

00:45:34   did was locked up some good designers and say here's the form factor we've [TS]

00:45:40   already finished the hardware it's this twelve-inch piece of glass with a [TS]

00:45:46   touchscreen and has this incredible resolution in here is the keyboard can [TS]

00:45:51   connect what does the user interface look like to this like what is the the [TS]

00:45:56   home screen [TS]

00:45:57   what's the root level like when you're just starting I don't think anybody [TS]

00:46:02   would come up with what what the iPad home screen looks like it's it's so [TS]

00:46:09   clearly like when the iPhone was not the macro it you know what we think of as [TS]

00:46:15   Mac OS just shrunk down to fit on the screen with a menu bar at the top in [TS]

00:46:18   little draggable windows that's exactly what they've done with the iPad though [TS]

00:46:22   they've just taken the phone interface [TS]

00:46:24   and moved it to this new thing and now that it's more capable and now that it's [TS]

00:46:28   it really is fast enough to be like treated as a Mac I feel like it's it's [TS]

00:46:35   almost painful that Apple hasn't been more ambitious with interface to us I [TS]

00:46:41   think this goes back to you know that this is the iPhone OS right if the [TS]

00:46:46   iPhone OS and end it was formulated for a very small screen and when they took [TS]

00:46:50   it up to the iPad they didn't do a lot to change it other than to say you know [TS]

00:46:55   you've got more room to spread out your interface and we've gone with that I was [TS]

00:46:59   nine shows some signs right that they're they're like oh we need to really [TS]

00:47:03   address this now but it took them at people are out there using keyboards on [TS]

00:47:07   the on this thing for years and got very little support beyond the most [TS]

00:47:12   rudimentary like yes we will support Bluetooth keyboards and and it's only [TS]

00:47:17   when I really have had been kicked into gear and so they're kinda behind in it [TS]

00:47:21   but you're right it's not it's not the interface that you would build for this [TS]

00:47:28   device it's an interface that evolved from the original iPhone essentially and [TS]

00:47:33   they're still parts of it having evolved very much I mean the springboard the [TS]

00:47:35   home screen is not involved essentially at all and there are lots of other parts [TS]

00:47:41   that on the iPad Pro it's just sort of a stretched-out version of what was on the [TS]

00:47:44   iPad air so you know it's I don't know I i've seen people suggest that they are [TS]

00:47:51   to make you know they consider this an iPad OS and that it's that it's [TS]

00:47:56   something that needs to be with you call it something different or not it needs [TS]

00:47:59   to it needs more investment into features that only matter for the iPad [TS]

00:48:04   that it's on one level it's totally understandable the iPhone is so huge [TS]

00:48:08   that you want to devote so much [TS]

00:48:10   iOS development time to features that the iPhone will use but I wonder [TS]

00:48:14   sometimes if it's a self fulfilling prophecy a little bit that the iPad [TS]

00:48:19   isn't growing because they aren't putting the work in and making it more [TS]

00:48:25   of a product and it could be you know it's always the iPhone that gets the [TS]

00:48:29   priority it seems except with these new feature not and I was nine it's felt [TS]

00:48:33   like you know it really is about the iPhone and the iPad is lucky to kind of [TS]

00:48:36   come along [TS]

00:48:37   and the iPad broker be a lot better if they were more features that took [TS]

00:48:41   advantage of things like an external keyboard and I'm not saying it needs a [TS]

00:48:44   mouse and drop down menus which you know the map but more than it's got now I [TS]

00:48:51   definitely think that mouse pointer is not the right way to go I feel like that [TS]

00:48:57   this AM fully on board with exactly you know what Apple's executives you know [TS]

00:49:02   Tim Cook Phil Schiller I think you can add a couple of interviews that Eq [TS]

00:49:08   I i really I don't think it's been I think they truly believe this and I do [TS]

00:49:13   too that the Mac and iPad OS are not going to converge there's not going to [TS]

00:49:19   be any sort of point in the foreseeable future I mean like years and years out [TS]

00:49:23   where everything is just 10 s and you can touch your iMac 5 k I really think [TS]

00:49:29   that it and I think the mouse pointer interface isn't going anywhere and [TS]

00:49:35   that's in Apple world that's called the Mac and the touch interface isn't going [TS]

00:49:40   anywhere but there needs to be some kind of directional input thats not touching [TS]

00:49:45   the screen and I think it you know Apple TV shows how that possible right and I [TS]

00:49:50   know that even the old Apple TV which just had with the No Touch iPad it just [TS]

00:49:57   had up down left right you know you can do it and I feel like the new one with [TS]

00:50:01   the touchpad even shows even more how possibilities in this focus engineer [TS]

00:50:07   they have it you have these elections and it shows you based on the depth I [TS]

00:50:11   might say that's exactly what they could move to the iPad because then I don't [TS]

00:50:15   think it would work with touch right like I think if they put the focus [TS]

00:50:19   engineer for use with a keyboard with the arrow keys are with the trackpad [TS]

00:50:24   trackpad that isn't there but if they added hypothetical trackpad you could do [TS]

00:50:31   the focus the focus thing would definitely work and I think that would [TS]

00:50:34   be pretty useful and then you could use the trackpad to move the insertion point [TS]

00:50:38   around [TS]

00:50:39   and texting views and all of that would work in be useful and not introduce a [TS]

00:50:42   mouse pointer which i think is problematic in a lot of ways [TS]

00:50:46   yeah I mean that in some ways the track pads already there right because if you [TS]

00:50:52   put two fingers down on the software keyboard you can move the text insertion [TS]

00:50:56   around and so there is a pointing device it's not gonna you know it's not a [TS]

00:51:01   cursor that's available everywhere but it is there and in that way you know if [TS]

00:51:06   you're using an external keyboard you lose that feature and there isn't the [TS]

00:51:10   support I I was arguing somebody on Twitter I think you were part of that [TS]

00:51:13   change to about this idea of a trackpad on a on a keyboard from Apple which I i [TS]

00:51:18   think is less likely but I kind of feel like they might as well just support [TS]

00:51:22   Bluetooth trackpads because you know just for text insertion because it's not [TS]

00:51:26   as if it's not there [TS]

00:51:27   the alternative would be something like i think is a patent for a keyboard an [TS]

00:51:32   Apple patent for a keyboard that you could also just move your finger across [TS]

00:51:36   yeah and it would it would act like a trackpad which you know that's how the [TS]

00:51:41   software keyboard works so if you had a hardware keyboard that you could do that [TS]

00:51:44   that might solve it to its like look if you remove the insertion point around [TS]

00:51:47   you just you know you'll push down on the keys you just read your fingers over [TS]

00:51:51   them and will you know that that's close enough for us to figure out what you [TS]

00:51:54   doing so maybe there's something there because that it doesn't get enough [TS]

00:51:58   publicity but that's like one of the biggest breaks with iOS interface [TS]

00:52:02   metaphor that has ever been is the idea that suddenly you've got a little cursor [TS]

00:52:06   to move around on screen that's that's not something that we've we've really [TS]

00:52:10   had an iOS before and once once that's out of the box a little bit I mean and I [TS]

00:52:14   think it's great for productivity and it's fantastic on the iPad Pro it's the [TS]

00:52:17   easiest movement of that I find it harder to move around on the iPhone on [TS]

00:52:21   the smaller iPad but it's a really good because you got that space and it [TS]

00:52:25   totally works so you know I'd like to see more of that more places plus simple [TS]

00:52:30   stuff like if I do a spotlight search I can narrow down into one of the results [TS]

00:52:34   I I can't help but feel that that's just that's just coming there has to be [TS]

00:52:39   coming sure I think a lot of these are are very clearly like they're very close [TS]

00:52:43   and then and they're just not quite there yet [TS]

00:52:46   auto correct is one I just wrote a piece about this yesterday on the iPad pro [TS]

00:52:50   44 macworld where auto correct is one where there's this whole lot of crack [TS]

00:52:55   system that's been built up for the software keyboard because it's really [TS]

00:52:58   important for the software keyboard but right now there's no system-level way to [TS]

00:53:02   assign auto correct on or off for hardware or software keyboards so every [TS]

00:53:06   time I use hardware keyboard I have to go turn it off because it is terrible [TS]

00:53:10   when I'm using the hardware keyboard it corrects things that I type correctly [TS]

00:53:14   into other things and I type so fast that I go right over it [TS]

00:53:17   my incidence of typos goes up I'm correcting things all the time and it's [TS]

00:53:21   just one of those things that like that's a pretty simple I don't know [TS]

00:53:24   again I don't know house deep into the tax code may be hard to implement but [TS]

00:53:29   from a user perspective it's like it makes sense that my rules for my [TS]

00:53:33   software keyboard my hardware keyboard would be would be different and it goes [TS]

00:53:37   to the auto capitalization stuff I don't know if you tried this but if you type [TS]

00:53:41   you hold down the shift key little too long for the first two letters of a word [TS]

00:53:45   are capitalized you like I meant that to be lower case you lift the shift key off [TS]

00:53:50   your back space and then you take the key again on the iPad it just stays in [TS]

00:53:54   capital letters [TS]

00:53:55   yeah and that's been a problem for the iPhone since the beginning which is like [TS]

00:54:00   no you toggle the shift key up you probably want to type of capital letter [TS]

00:54:04   here and spoken about this where where when you get to know in a rich text [TS]

00:54:10   editing interface like word or txt Edit weather is bold and italics underline [TS]

00:54:15   there are implicit in visible marks effectively and in a cold days like when [TS]

00:54:22   we used to right honourable Tues you could see them I hope codes right show [TS]

00:54:27   code it's a butt but in other words if I start typing Jason and I type for [TS]

00:54:36   whatever stupid reason I just want the first two letters to be bold if I go [TS]

00:54:42   back and delete the old table again it's still going to be bold in till I get [TS]

00:54:48   command be again before I type and it's the shift key is like that on iOS the [TS]

00:54:53   shift key is sorta like an invisible marker in in there it's like a mode that [TS]

00:54:58   you go into and stays on [TS]

00:55:00   yeah and it's i mean that's just a bug right i mean it's really just a bug but [TS]

00:55:05   it it stems from the fact that there's this whole infrastructure of input that [TS]

00:55:11   has been built up around around the iPhone originally and then the iPad and [TS]

00:55:16   the external keyboard thing is just kind of this weird things grafted on which in [TS]

00:55:20   the context of the time made sense but when you're trying to think of this as [TS]

00:55:23   more of a productivity device and that a lot of people are going to be using [TS]

00:55:27   keyboard that Apple sells a keyboard now you know it's all stuff that just needs [TS]

00:55:31   to be better and I keep coming back to the iOS time thing I feel like what the [TS]

00:55:35   real story here is just that Apple already has gotten religion about this [TS]

00:55:38   but they didn't really get it until I was nine and that before then they sort [TS]

00:55:43   of just kept her hands off of it and then since they only got through that [TS]

00:55:46   religion for iOS nine they haven't had time to build this stuff and I was [TS]

00:55:50   hoping to see a little more of it in the build of iOS that ran on the iPad pro [TS]

00:55:54   and I'm still hopeful that maybe 92 maybe 93 we'll just see the stuff [TS]

00:55:59   trickling out instead of having to wait for an iOS 10 but you know that's the [TS]

00:56:04   optimist in me is that I i feel like maybe they they they have got it right [TS]

00:56:07   they've got the product out there they've got that that keyboard and they [TS]

00:56:11   do know that this is important to the iPad pro and that they're going to [TS]

00:56:13   prioritize more of these features to make it to make it better I think that [TS]

00:56:18   one of the most telling thing and to me it contrasts with this episode of the [TS]

00:56:23   show almost looks like it was organized I think it contrasts so poorly with the [TS]

00:56:29   pencil where to me every aspect of the pencil seems so thoughtful and it but [TS]

00:56:36   the thing is is that the pencil is this all new thing that slips into the touch [TS]

00:56:42   world established by the iPhone speaking but like the 2007 iPhone in theory would [TS]

00:56:49   work great with the pencil right and I i my guess is that going forward all [TS]

00:56:54   future iOS devices will be at the top center that iPad pro dozen will work [TS]

00:57:01   with the pencil [TS]

00:57:02   least they could and at least all iPads [TS]

00:57:05   I don't know maybe not the phone but I don't see why not with the phone [TS]

00:57:09   yeah I don't and it's not the iPad in a potential for iPad perot or something [TS]

00:57:13   like that [TS]

00:57:13   pencil period but it doesn't it doesn't foresee any kind of rethinking of the [TS]

00:57:18   interface of the touch centric interface its all new whereas the keyboard is so [TS]

00:57:25   in conflict with that and in not that I don't think I think the theory there's a [TS]

00:57:29   way to arrive at a this works just as well with the touch and the keyboard but [TS]

00:57:35   you know it different ways and I'll give you an example that a second but the [TS]

00:57:39   other example in its just reeks to me of of the wait a second [TS]

00:57:46   didn't somebody think that this is crazy so in theory if you have the hardware [TS]

00:57:50   keyboard attached typing should be better in every way because it's an [TS]

00:57:54   actual keyboard or at least or if in theory you are the world's world-class [TS]

00:58:01   type on the iPad screen typist then it should be at least as good but in a way [TS]

00:58:06   a huge way it's worse because when you're using the on-screen keyboard you [TS]

00:58:11   can put two fingers down and move the insertion point and you know you just [TS]

00:58:15   spent three minutes praising [TS]

00:58:16   I'll just say ditto it's one of the greatest inventions of the touchscreen [TS]

00:58:20   era and then if you have the hardware keyboard there's no way to do that [TS]

00:58:24   yeah I find that to be absolutely crazy just be again in whether it you know I'm [TS]

00:58:32   not saying it's easy thing to solve it I I dunno like you said maybe some kind of [TS]

00:58:36   weird patented material that turns the surface of the keyboard into a touchpad [TS]

00:58:41   center just for going just for just for moving around you don't have to do [TS]

00:58:45   anything else I don't know what the answer is but boy that's seems crazy [TS]

00:58:51   that you get this really cool feature with the on-screen keyboard and when you [TS]

00:58:54   put up a hardware keyboard you completely lose it so the other example [TS]

00:58:59   the other in this one really bothers me is [TS]

00:59:07   command tab so they're the command to have the David to iOS is just looks [TS]

00:59:14   exactly like the Max command which in and of itself not OK from the year [TS]

00:59:20   your apps start with the go left to right with left is your current most app [TS]

00:59:25   and then as you move to the right you see your the apps you used in whatever [TS]

00:59:33   you know the order in which you've used them one command tab get you to the one [TS]

00:59:37   you use most recently to get you to the second most recent center but there's [TS]

00:59:45   the double tap the home button switcher which provides the exact same time exact [TS]

00:59:51   same exact same problem which is I want to switch to a recently used at but on [TS]

00:59:56   iOS it's completely different [TS]

00:59:59   it looks different it's this 3d stacked view and it even goes in a different [TS]

01:00:04   order starting with Mac OS 9 it goes from right to left but they had a [TS]

01:00:13   left-to-right version in Iowa seven and eight with the old card style interface [TS]

01:00:18   to me as a general principle there's absolutely no reason why that shouldn't [TS]

01:00:24   be the exact same interface whether you're using command tab or using the [TS]

01:00:28   screen and double-clicking the home button it should be the NA have had it [TS]

01:00:34   right there they had the iOS 8 switcher and I think the only reason they [TS]

01:00:38   switched it for I was nine was for the iPhone 6 s with the force touch with you [TS]

01:00:44   can force from the edge and I don't think that that I don't think that's [TS]

01:00:51   worth it I feel like maybe they should have just made it so that you instead of [TS]

01:00:55   forced touching from the left edge you have to do it from the right edge so [TS]

01:00:58   that the the order could be the same between the two i I don't know but [TS]

01:01:04   somehow if they wanted to add the force touch switcher they should have done it [TS]

01:01:08   in a way that they could use the same switcher for a double tap home go from [TS]

01:01:13   the edge indefinitely from command at the command tab switcher should be the [TS]

01:01:16   same as the double tap the home button switch her and it's it's it's a lack of [TS]

01:01:22   thoughtfulness that that it's not so well I mean it is more dense to have [TS]

01:01:26   just the icons up there not the previews and if they had it you know although you [TS]

01:01:30   could have that same sort of stack of you know angled textures of what those [TS]

01:01:35   apps were there something I'm sure I'm sure they could unify if they really [TS]

01:01:38   wanted to but it's funny when you think of that Apple taking the approach that [TS]

01:01:42   each device has its own thing and I'm like Microsoft's approach the Maxima be [TS]

01:01:48   the Mac and the iPad's gonna be iPad this is a case where when you've got an [TS]

01:01:54   external keyboard attached the iPad kind of is a Mac sort of using the max which [TS]

01:01:58   are instead of [TS]

01:02:00   and I don't know whether that's a good thing because the people depend on your [TS]

01:02:03   attitude is people use external keyboards are fossils their old people [TS]

01:02:07   who want the old ways and where it this is providing some continuity for our [TS]

01:02:11   users who are less comfortable with the new ways of text input or whether you [TS]

01:02:16   know it's just a nice accessory for people who wanna input text faster and [TS]

01:02:20   and if it's the former than the apps which makes sense because it'll scare [TS]

01:02:25   them less but it's not the same metaphor as the rest of the system it's this [TS]

01:02:30   bizarre thing the kind of got imported from the Mac yet it just it in a way [TS]

01:02:35   it's i'm glad that it's there you know and I'm glad that while I've been trying [TS]

01:02:41   to use my iPad pro as as you know how much of my work and I do want to try [TS]

01:02:46   this thing out I'm certainly glad that command tab works but I think that just [TS]

01:02:51   stick with just a comeback styles which are in there is crazy when this [TS]

01:02:55   specially when when Iowa's [TS]

01:02:56   hello switching and an app switching metaphor that would work perfectly with [TS]

01:03:02   command tab and I really think that that's a lot slicker and I feel like it [TS]

01:03:06   really i feel like the beauty of it is and even the new iOS nine's switcher [TS]

01:03:12   still has the same quality where you can see the apps [TS]

01:03:16   as you're switching between them and that doesn't really translate well to [TS]

01:03:20   the Mac because Mac apps can have lots and lots of windows open but every [TS]

01:03:25   single iOS app only has one screen current time and I feel like the visual [TS]

01:03:30   aspect of that where it's like a layer of abstraction has been removed and you [TS]

01:03:34   actually see the apps Safari it looks like the currently showing Safari tap is [TS]

01:03:41   is so much more iOS like it so much more of what I West is supposed to be rather [TS]

01:03:47   than this extra layer of abstraction where safari is represented by its home [TS]

01:03:51   screen icon yeah and I i really wanna get into that when you've got two apps [TS]

01:03:58   running in splits you the switch the iOS based switcher is even weirder because I [TS]

01:04:03   think the split view on the right just vanishes [TS]

01:04:07   because show and what it showed the split you or would it show the last time [TS]

01:04:12   it wasn't in Split View and its there's a lot going on and you do get the sense [TS]

01:04:17   you said it and I had I been thinking that you do get the sense that there was [TS]

01:04:20   a long debated doubtful about the app switcher stuff and about productivity [TS]

01:04:24   for keyboard people and at some point somebody said look just put the Mac apps [TS]

01:04:28   which are in there from the keyboard people just as good enough for them so I [TS]

01:04:34   hopefully there are people in its just hopefully that it's just some sort of [TS]

01:04:39   luck we you know we can ship this big iPad now we're ready to do it we have [TS]

01:04:44   the I think again this is the sort of thing even when you know people at Apple [TS]

01:04:53   in friend and they just don't like to talk about timeline but I think that the [TS]

01:04:58   iPad Pro has been something that they've been thinking about ever since they [TS]

01:05:02   started working on the iPad in terms of what size of these devices would you [TS]

01:05:06   like to ship and having to make something that this big butt is weighs [TS]

01:05:14   as little as it does I think about the fact that the original iPad you know [TS]

01:05:17   famously now everybody says you know talking about the weight of the iPad bro [TS]

01:05:21   weighs almost exactly the same as the original iPad [TS]

01:05:24   well then obviously at this size back in 2010 it would've been way too heavy [TS]

01:05:30   yeah it would have been as thick as dense as that iPad now terrier so it [TS]

01:05:38   took them awhile to be able to make something that was this big and that [TS]

01:05:40   would be tolerable way and it clearly once they've gone to the retina [TS]

01:05:45   they ran into these incredibly difficult things with the graphics to be able to [TS]

01:05:50   drive its green decides that threaten you know they had to do the same thing [TS]

01:05:54   with this that they did with Retina 5 k iMac where they have their own timing [TS]

01:05:58   controller to control the whole thing has nothing on the market could drive [TS]

01:06:01   them any pixels so I think that this year I think 2015 this is they've [TS]

01:06:07   shipped a a big iPad the first year that they could have that you know all the [TS]

01:06:15   engineering constraints that they had to work with to be able to ship something [TS]

01:06:18   that meets their definition for you know here's an IP here's what we could be [TS]

01:06:22   would be willing to ship as an iOS device it to make on this size it took [TS]

01:06:26   until now and because they could do it now they're shipping it now even though [TS]

01:06:30   the software on the software side clearly they're they're not caught up to [TS]

01:06:34   the level of what could we do with an iPad of this size you know I think [TS]

01:06:39   that's exactly right that this is this feels like I was saying like when I was [TS]

01:06:43   nine and with the putting the iPad pro into getting it ready for production [TS]

01:06:47   that was there was a moment of like ok this matters to us now and the problem [TS]

01:06:50   was that they weren't laying the foundation before and and you can't you [TS]

01:06:54   can't turn on a dime and add all those features in and so the software is [TS]

01:06:57   lagging behind in the shame that it wasn't you also feel like the iPad here [TS]

01:07:02   too was so over suspect that that was almost like the pilot program for the [TS]

01:07:07   iPad pro a little bit like wow where did this thing come from psycho I understand [TS]

01:07:12   now but and hardware is spectacular it really is a great piece of hardware and [TS]

01:07:16   that's why I think it is striking that we come back to the software kinda [TS]

01:07:20   hasn't caught up and it's not just like there's the whole of the debate about [TS]

01:07:24   professional software in the App Store in all of that but like the iOS itself [TS]

01:07:28   is kinda just it's it's it's a little bit behind the what the hard-working [TS]

01:07:33   offer and it's it's it's not surprising because [TS]

01:07:37   I think they they got a late start because it wasn't a priority until until [TS]

01:07:41   they decided I wonder you know I really wish I I would be fascinating to know [TS]

01:07:47   the stories behind it I keep my gut feeling is also that Apple has changed [TS]

01:07:50   its philosophy about product lines where it feels that they don't have to be as [TS]

01:07:54   focused that every product doesn't have to be for every person and I think that [TS]

01:07:58   evidence one of that was the existence of the iPhone six-plus where it was not [TS]

01:08:04   the flagship it was this oversized phone and I i think that Apple felt bitten by [TS]

01:08:08   the fact that they were so maniacally focused on having one iPhone that they [TS]

01:08:12   got behind in the large phone category and Samsung showed them that people [TS]

01:08:16   wanted that and I wonder if that leads down to the iPad a little bit too and [TS]

01:08:20   gives them the freedom to have this product exist where like look we can [TS]

01:08:23   have a bunch of different iPads and you know the meaning was the first example [TS]

01:08:27   of that and then this is another example it's like look we can have a lot of [TS]

01:08:30   these iPads we can ship them all the same year too much but we have to ship [TS]

01:08:34   like a couple one or two a year but I i wonder if there's a story there that [TS]

01:08:39   maybe it's just me seeing things but I feel like there's something there about [TS]

01:08:42   Apple shifting gears from sort of like this is the iPhone to saying we have [TS]

01:08:47   many iPhones you can choose from we have many iPads choose choose the one you [TS]

01:08:50   like and that's not where they were 23 years ago but that's where they are now [TS]

01:08:55   yeah it's it's a fascinating device the iPad pro and pencil and the keyboard and [TS]

01:09:04   there's so much to think about and what it is is interested in fascinated in it [TS]

01:09:10   as I am I think you're exactly right is that it's it is the device I would [TS]

01:09:14   recommend to the fewest people as what you know one of the big things I guess [TS]

01:09:23   the only thing again I think the iPhone plus you know the success + 16 + are [TS]

01:09:29   similar where it but even maybe even a little bit less you know like I feel [TS]

01:09:34   like it's the people who want the plus-size phone they know it it's just a [TS]

01:09:39   gut feeling he forgot says I wish my phone was really big then go ahead [TS]

01:09:43   where is this is a little bit it's a little bit more complicated I guess I [TS]

01:09:48   don't I really don't think it's not just an issue of the old days I think it used [TS]

01:09:55   to be in the PowerBook days the only reason to get like you know the old [TS]

01:10:02   remember that even the MacBook the only reason to get one other than a MacBook [TS]

01:10:10   Pro was I think you know about cost do you know if you can afford the MacBook [TS]

01:10:16   Pro you're going to want that MacBook Pro cuz you're not really saving much [TS]

01:10:19   else it wasn't like they were lighter you know dinner they were just slower [TS]

01:10:24   now the only time I had a MacBook was there was the period where they were the [TS]

01:10:28   MacBooks were smaller and the MacBook Pros were not smaller and that was the [TS]

01:10:33   reason to get it was you want a smaller laptop we've got it but if all other [TS]

01:10:37   things are equal then I wanna do you think the iPad Pro is a little bit like [TS]

01:10:41   the old 17 inch yeah right [TS]

01:10:44   sorta like who wants this and the answer is there are some people who really want [TS]

01:10:48   this yeah but most people are probably not gonna lie and you could do the [TS]

01:10:51   industries in with the iPad probably different industries but you could say [TS]

01:10:54   you know people who do want to do video editing this might actually on the road [TS]

01:10:58   this might actually be great for because it's got the big screen and people who [TS]

01:11:01   want to who want to draw graphic artists in comic book partisan colorists in all [TS]

01:11:07   sorts of different jobs with a pencil and the giant screen perfect and and [TS]

01:11:12   like a thousand other niches plus the power user type people who can do the [TS]

01:11:19   whole jobs with it and then over time maybe it becomes more than that but [TS]

01:11:22   that's that's my gut feeling now is they yeah like a Federico I mean he's the [TS]

01:11:26   poster boy for it right but I think there are other people and and you know [TS]

01:11:29   people who just like they're having a ripe and realize they've got Office on [TS]

01:11:32   there and that's all they need I think it will find lots of surprising [TS]

01:11:37   audiences I'm really looking forward to actually in the next six months there [TS]

01:11:40   will probably be a lot of stories about oh did you realize the iPad protects the [TS]

01:11:43   great for acts like oh that is of course it makes perfect sense I didn't think of [TS]

01:11:48   it at the time but it's a bit too perfect product that but you know that [TS]

01:11:51   17 inch PowerBook was like that too [TS]

01:11:53   way to time it was huge it was ridiculous and the people who won [TS]

01:11:56   did it it was in the priceless forever because they were people just did not [TS]

01:12:00   want to give up the 17 inch in certain audiences and it wasn't really until you [TS]

01:12:05   know the finally the 15 was so powerful and 15 with retinol that that it was it [TS]

01:12:10   was no longer the cafeteria tray laptop with no relevant I think it's maybe [TS]

01:12:16   that's it's probably the 17 inch PowerBook [TS]

01:12:19   yeah there was a magnetic the last one was still yeah I think that's probably a [TS]

01:12:27   little bit more niche than the iPad pro but I think it's a long that spectrum [TS]

01:12:31   though that you kinda need to have an exceptional need to justify it as [TS]

01:12:36   expensive compared to the other products I think and it is not as kind of [TS]

01:12:40   unreasonable it's big and some people get turned off by its bigness but you [TS]

01:12:45   know there are other people for whom having the bigger screen [TS]

01:12:48   you know it's just going to be it's gonna be good it's an iPad right in all [TS]

01:12:51   other ways it is an iPad and it's got this big bright beautiful screen and if [TS]

01:12:56   you don't care about the way to the size of it you know it it does does what it [TS]

01:13:01   says it is a popular iPad I loved my link to it and said it was just my [TS]

01:13:06   favorite observation I'm the one person's observation about the I petrol [TS]

01:13:10   that I was jealous of that I didn't think it was horace that jews that it's [TS]

01:13:13   a desktop iPad not desktop meaning like it runs desktop destop you get so [TS]

01:13:20   overused cause that's what we mean when we say Mac and Windows but he just meant [TS]

01:13:25   literally that you put it on a desk and it meant to be you so much of what we do [TS]

01:13:29   now on desktops is actually a laptop right I thought that was I thought that [TS]

01:13:35   was so keen and I have to say in all my time and again when you're doing these [TS]

01:13:39   things need to know you're in our racket and you want to write a review of this [TS]

01:13:43   thing you do you spend on I spent an awful lot of time on it in the [TS]

01:13:46   especially that first week we're at the review it and I did everything on it [TS]

01:13:53   even things that I knew what I was doing it like wow the long run [TS]

01:13:56   I'm not going to do and I can use this to do this but I was doing it just to [TS]

01:13:59   see what it was like I'd really have to say that the stuff that I usually do [TS]

01:14:04   with an iPad on a normal day just sit there at the end of the day and just [TS]

01:14:08   sort of fun watching sports on TV and I'm just paying attention to Twitter [TS]

01:14:12   other you know the second screen and I'm on the couch [TS]

01:14:18   the big I Pad Pro is cumbersome it's hard to hold in one hand I mean it's [TS]

01:14:23   this is not like something that you couldn't foresee but it's kind of wants [TS]

01:14:27   to be used on a desk or like on your lap with the keyboard attached to that its [TS]

01:14:34   resting on it and that to me is different then from what most people I [TS]

01:14:39   think do with with their iPad yeah everybody's ergonomics gonna be [TS]

01:14:43   different but but it feels it feels comfortable on a table on a desk it's [TS]

01:14:50   totally comfortable I I think sitting up it is for me [TS]

01:14:54   ergonomically it's fine if I'm sitting upright in a chair or even on my couch [TS]

01:14:59   in my living room when I'm leaning back like I'm I'm laying on the couch [TS]

01:15:03   rambling and dead and I'm like checking email in the morning or something like [TS]

01:15:06   that it's kind of ridiculous I can get used to it but it's like it probably [TS]

01:15:10   doesn't fit as welfare and I'm not sure if people really want to have two iPads [TS]

01:15:15   right there that big iPad in their small iPad but it almost comes across like [TS]

01:15:19   that this is not an iPad you you use everywhere [TS]

01:15:22   probably yeah and it does it does seem like it's only example is sort of [TS]

01:15:28   optimizing for the case where you're gonna you're gonna have a whole house [TS]

01:15:32   full of apple just pick the one that you know a downstairs you know I'd like that [TS]

01:15:36   like the daytime nighttime iPhone guy you're gonna have an upstairs iPad and [TS]

01:15:41   it you know [TS]

01:15:42   downstairs I plan which is terrible it's so great to it is but I do kind of feel [TS]

01:15:49   that way [TS]

01:15:50   yeah exactly alright reading another break here and think another one of her [TS]

01:15:55   longtime friends of the show the good folks at Warby Parker Warby Parker [TS]

01:16:01   believes that prescription eyeglasses simply should not cost $300 or more [TS]

01:16:06   they bypassed their traditional channels and they sell high-quality [TS]

01:16:11   great-looking prescription eyeglasses direct to you at a fraction of the usual [TS]

01:16:15   retail prices starting at just 95 bucks and you can go from there and there's [TS]

01:16:21   get the lines that go darker something like that it costs a little more in the [TS]

01:16:25   bifocals cost more but 95 bucks as a starting price for a regular parent [TS]

01:16:31   classes and that comes with everything they don't up sell you on anti [TS]

01:16:35   reflective coatings are anti glare they don't make you pay more for the good [TS]

01:16:41   polycarbonate material that the lenses are made out of that they all come with [TS]

01:16:45   that by default even come with nice cases in a nice cleaning cloth just [TS]

01:16:49   really really great stuff [TS]

01:16:51   buying eyeglasses online sound crazy right everybody's for most people I know [TS]

01:16:55   really super picky about something that they're going to put on their face and [TS]

01:16:59   how do you get around that what you go to their website and they've got some [TS]

01:17:04   really cool tools you can use web camera just upload a picture of yourself and [TS]

01:17:07   you can preview what some of the glasses will look like on your face [TS]

01:17:11   they even have a tool that lets you measure your eyes as part of the trick [TS]

01:17:15   about getting glasses you wanna know exactly how far apart your pupils are [TS]

01:17:18   they have a little thing where you use a credit card is really clever devil Creek [TS]

01:17:22   Rd sort of a standard with and credit card up your face and they can measure [TS]

01:17:26   your pupils it's funny cuz I got that measurement I did it with worby and long [TS]

01:17:33   story short I've been to the eye doctor like last year the measurement I got my [TS]

01:17:37   eye doctor exactly the same as well be Parker's seemingly gimmick Lake online [TS]

01:17:43   thing really really cool about the best part though is they have this trial on [TS]

01:17:48   program you go to their website you measure your eyes you look at all of the [TS]

01:17:53   classes they have on their website and catalog you pick five pairs that you [TS]

01:17:57   like they send them to you [TS]

01:17:59   risk-free they did ship them to you with you know like clear or non-prescription [TS]

01:18:03   lenses like the ones you would try on a story you try these five on it home yet [TS]

01:18:08   five days you just look around see what other people think she would people in [TS]

01:18:12   your family think [TS]

01:18:13   pick the one you like best you send them all back with a prepaid return label [TS]

01:18:19   easier to send them back but you send them back to the website and say here's [TS]

01:18:23   the one that I actually liked and next thing you know couple days later you get [TS]

01:18:27   your eyeglasses in the mail could not be easier [TS]

01:18:31   really really easy way to get new glasses they've also got prescription [TS]

01:18:37   and not and non-prescription sunglasses anything you want but I glass related [TS]

01:18:43   worby has it and they even do the school thing where every time they sell a pair [TS]

01:18:47   of eyeglasses to someone like you [TS]

01:18:49   a regular customer they give a pair of prescription glasses to someone in need [TS]

01:18:56   through various vision charities that are around the world which is a really [TS]

01:19:02   great thing if you think about that I imagine being so poor living in a [TS]

01:19:05   country where you can't even see sharply because you can't afford it can get [TS]

01:19:11   access to prescription glasses with these charities help or be does a [TS]

01:19:15   one-for-one matching with them which is really great so here's where you go to [TS]

01:19:19   find out more go to Warby Parker dot com slash the talk show will be Parker / the [TS]

01:19:25   talk show and check them out next time I guess my thanks to worry Parker anyhow [TS]

01:19:34   wanna talk about this we have a couple of other things that are sort of maybes [TS]

01:19:36   I don't have anything more on my iPad Pro has been at the top of mind I think [TS]

01:19:44   for for so many of us the last couple of weeks there's the issue that you touched [TS]

01:19:50   on about this sort of and I feel like everybody's been talking about this is I [TS]

01:19:56   get perennial topic but the whole idea of is there a market for professional [TS]

01:20:00   software for the iPad and if so what why why does it seem I gets worse than on [TS]

01:20:06   the Mac that just to name a price that there's a lot of apps that sell for 20 [TS]

01:20:10   25 bucks on the Mac [TS]

01:20:12   and their indie developers using that twenty to twenty-five dollars per sale [TS]

01:20:16   to build a healthy business and on iOS even an iPad it seems like it's the $5 [TS]

01:20:27   is considered expensive and elaborate mbox in nobody buys it and it just [TS]

01:20:33   doesn't seem like there's a market know if you look at the size of the iPad [TS]

01:20:38   market there's an argument that that because the iPhone is so big that people [TS]

01:20:46   are building for iPhone and not worry about the iPad but the iPad market is [TS]

01:20:50   bigger than the Mac market average selling prices weigh less than the [TS]

01:20:57   revenue is about the same right so I'm not sure I buy i mean i i buy the [TS]

01:21:02   argument that the iPad Pro is not have such a huge user base that products just [TS]

01:21:05   built for the iPad pro are going to not be able to sell III will agree with that [TS]

01:21:10   but I'm not sure I buy it when it comes to the iPad in general is the iPad air [TS]

01:21:15   to is very functional and so is the iPad Mini for and you know there are issues [TS]

01:21:20   with the Mac App Store [TS]

01:21:22   there's no doubt about it that Apple could do a better job of making about [TS]

01:21:29   the App Store in general not Mac App Store the there lots of issues of the [TS]

01:21:31   Mac App Store you know the idea that you can to try outs and and you can't be [TS]

01:21:36   paid upgrades and you know it's the same stuff we've been complaining about [TS]

01:21:38   forever but I'm not sure that I I am NOT saying it's easy but I'm not sure I buy [TS]

01:21:44   but it's not possible for software companies to make money building iPad [TS]

01:21:49   software I don't know and I know none of these observations or original but it [TS]

01:21:55   does it does kind of ring some alarm bells from me that just with the iPad [TS]

01:22:02   Prolink what are some of the apps that people are talking about well adobe has [TS]

01:22:06   Adobe sketch out which is really cool demo app for the pencil and one of the [TS]

01:22:11   reasons Apple has been working with Adobe lost you know more than just last [TS]

01:22:15   week or two they let Adobe [TS]

01:22:17   people are saying I mentioned microsoft office right there were up on stage to [TS]

01:22:22   yeah yeah and like you said that you know you can make an argument that the [TS]

01:22:28   office apps are better on iPad and they are on that but those two companies say [TS]

01:22:33   they're huge and B they've both kind of switched to this subscription model [TS]

01:22:38   right where you just pay Adobe for the Adobe clouding your subscription and [TS]

01:22:42   then you can use all of Adobe software that's that's fine for Adobe 22 to [TS]

01:22:49   borrow a phrase but how many companies can get away with that and get away with [TS]

01:22:55   it that they're cheating but that they there they have a rich library of apps [TS]

01:23:01   and decades of trust with certain user bases that that people will look at the [TS]

01:23:08   price of that and knowing you know go into it with their eyes open and know [TS]

01:23:13   that it's going to renew and they gonna pay this every year and they'll say well [TS]

01:23:16   that's worth it because I used office all the time [TS]

01:23:19   yeah I said I think it's not easy and I think the Adobe and Microsoft have this [TS]

01:23:25   advantage in that they have a subscription relationship with their [TS]

01:23:28   customers that means they have ongoing revenue from these things and not [TS]

01:23:32   everybody you know most most companies can offer that sort of thing they don't [TS]

01:23:36   have the ability but again I think there are plenty of things to criticize and [TS]

01:23:42   ways that way is that the market could be better but you know there are [TS]

01:23:46   professional level iOS apps that come out that people love and that people are [TS]

01:23:54   charged a decent amount of money for and on top of that I'm not sure this is any [TS]

01:24:01   different than a lot of other difficult software environments to to work in when [TS]

01:24:06   when I went to the release notes conference I mean what I heard loud and [TS]

01:24:10   clear from a lot of the developers there is a focus on niche markets don't build [TS]

01:24:14   don't try to build a hit-out focus on these new markets that that that once [TS]

01:24:18   your stuff and that'll give them a reason to adopt iOS or they're fun [TS]

01:24:22   they're frustrated because they're using tools that aren't aren't targeted at [TS]

01:24:25   them [TS]

01:24:26   and and and that's running back to but you got big players and then you've got [TS]

01:24:30   some players that build a better mousetrap so well that they grow a [TS]

01:24:35   following and then you've got apps that are not necessarily the most exciting [TS]

01:24:39   but they do the job for a particular area and I i think i I think there's [TS]

01:24:44   nothing in the iPad market that dissuade me from the belief that that people can [TS]

01:24:52   still have success making professional software on the iPad I i think if it's [TS]

01:24:57   just the iPad Pro it's more problematic it would be advantageous if that Apple's [TS]

01:25:01   around on the iPhone of course but I don't know I i guess im just I'm not [TS]

01:25:08   saying that it's not hard and there are issues I just I don't think it's quite [TS]

01:25:11   as extreme as all that there is no place for good professional apps to make money [TS]

01:25:16   but that's a it's a very different game right the volumes are going to be a lot [TS]

01:25:19   less and the price is going to be a lot higher and you know but I don't know why [TS]

01:25:25   I just have a hard time saying it's gonna be a barren wasteland but I think [TS]

01:25:29   it could be better [TS]

01:25:31   yeah and I just I don't feel like I want to say that the iPad Pro will help but [TS]

01:25:40   then I drove it well how am I gonna explain why I think that's so it's just [TS]

01:25:46   it more or less comes down to it because it's really cool computer and so I don't [TS]

01:25:52   know that that I don't know what the password is I can't explain it but I [TS]

01:25:58   think it needs that right like but you know and one example of it would be just [TS]

01:26:04   mentioned earlier in the show ferrite now there's that's the exact type of app [TS]

01:26:08   that I'm talking about an app that somebody could use to do serious editing [TS]

01:26:14   of a podcast using this device so my hope is that those guys do just as well [TS]

01:26:21   as they would if it was a Mac out and that people don't hesitate to make these [TS]

01:26:25   $20 in-app purchases to unlock the full app I don't like I just worry though [TS]

01:26:33   that the the consensus seems to be that people in [TS]

01:26:37   large enough numbers won't do that for her up I think some of it is about the [TS]

01:26:45   fact that there are trials although ferret gets around that by making the [TS]

01:26:49   appt three and and it's very limited and I i think you can even do that with the [TS]

01:26:53   office apps that for really basic use you can just use them you don't even [TS]

01:26:58   need not have 365 account and their point is that you know once you use them [TS]

01:27:02   you gonna want to connect to their services and do all these other things [TS]

01:27:04   at which point you need not as 365 account I i think there are ways around [TS]

01:27:08   it but I i get that it's scary and moving something like sketch from the [TS]

01:27:13   Mac to the iPad they've said they're not going to do it because they're afraid [TS]

01:27:17   that you know $400 that their app would be nobody would nobody would pay that [TS]

01:27:21   sight unseen I think there's some truth to that although I think again [TS]

01:27:26   people but there are ways there are ways but yeah it's it's it's very easy to say [TS]

01:27:33   look we should radically change how they handle apps for the iPad and they should [TS]

01:27:37   allow sideloading or something like gatekeeper we're on the Mac you can [TS]

01:27:42   download apps from third parties and depending on your security settings you [TS]

01:27:46   can just run them and that is a breach in this semi impregnable wall of the the [TS]

01:27:53   fortress of iOS in the App Store but and it would bring problems but it would [TS]

01:27:58   also bring some freedom and latitude that some of the professional [TS]

01:28:02   professionals software developers might like I don't know if it's complicated [TS]

01:28:07   and I think it's interesting to look at it through the lens of what we were [TS]

01:28:11   doing just a little while ago about the keyboard thing which is is this is the [TS]

01:28:17   iPad being allowed to be its own thing and two if we if we start with the iPad [TS]

01:28:23   do we come up with some different answers that we might for the iPhone and [TS]

01:28:26   does it need to be like know if it's this way on the iPad is always this way [TS]

01:28:30   on the iPhone or does it become a little bit more like the Mac and the attitude [TS]

01:28:33   towards things like software is a little bit different I don't know and I don't [TS]

01:28:37   know if that would solve it I don't know if opening up the ability to download [TS]

01:28:41   software from the Internet [TS]

01:28:44   rather than over the App Store it would be a cure-all might help but I'm not [TS]

01:28:49   sure [TS]

01:28:50   it's enough and I wondered too how much of it is that independent developers [TS]

01:28:56   whether it's like a small like two person you know [TS]

01:28:59   true indeed making you know you know sort of like the tablet gang which I [TS]

01:29:06   know or you know you know true companies where there's you know maybe like 10 [TS]

01:29:14   employees or something like that but all the way up to a company as big as Apple [TS]

01:29:18   itself that there's that the whole mythical man month aspect of software [TS]

01:29:26   development that you cannot just throw engineer's a problem there's there's you [TS]

01:29:31   know at some point there's too many when there's too many chefs in the kitchen [TS]

01:29:34   you can't cook anything gets bogged down by the bureaucracy of managing the team [TS]

01:29:38   and the world keeps moving and the industry moves and you know it's not all [TS]

01:29:47   in isolation and I just wonder how much of it is that by having wanting to keep [TS]

01:29:53   your iPhone up-to-date and moving forward and adding features and wanting [TS]

01:29:59   to have maybe [TS]

01:29:59   to have maybe [TS]

01:30:00   for some services like something like Slackware you know the big their big [TS]

01:30:04   screen interface sort of defaults to 0 web you you know even their native Mac [TS]

01:30:09   app is a web you whether it's a website or a Mac app that by the time you do [TS]

01:30:14   these things at the at the ends which could be like one and would be the [TS]

01:30:19   smaller screen like the iPhone and the others would be the big screen like what [TS]

01:30:23   do you do when you're sitting at your desk that the iPad gets lost in the [TS]

01:30:26   middle and maybe that's it's the exact same reason that some of these that we [TS]

01:30:29   we seem to be alone a lack of professional strength apps for the iPad [TS]

01:30:35   and like we talked about an hour ago that just iOS itself that seems to have [TS]

01:30:40   sort of a just never seem to get around to making the iPad optimized yeah I [TS]

01:30:47   think I think there's a chicken and egg problem there a little bit and then [TS]

01:30:52   there's also this issue of getting lost in the shuffle that of course you [TS]

01:30:57   prioritize the iPhone or the iPad right if you do that then you lose the Ipath [TS]

01:31:01   because it needs love too and it's gotta have some percentage of it if it's gonna [TS]

01:31:07   if it's gonna gonna succeed but it's the same platform as the iPhone and so it's [TS]

01:31:11   not as if you can send a team off to do the iPad on the side it's all part of [TS]

01:31:16   the of the of the larger hole and and it is it is the doctor the chicken-and-egg [TS]

01:31:23   problem that that you almost need more people saying this is a place where I'm [TS]

01:31:27   doing work for in order to create a place where developers want to be but I [TS]

01:31:32   think there will be some developers success stories and I think I think [TS]

01:31:35   maybe in a strange way the existence of the Microsoft and Adobe apps on there [TS]

01:31:39   makes it a more welcoming place because that gets you a long way between that [TS]

01:31:44   all the the stock AAPL stuff you can go a long way with what's already on the [TS]

01:31:49   iPad Pro you can go a really long way and that might make it easier for people [TS]

01:31:56   to start using the iPad Pro and iPad air to do even more of this stuff and the [TS]

01:32:01   more welcoming a place that is then maybe the more welcoming market it is [TS]

01:32:04   for people building other other software but it is not going to be easy to know [TS]

01:32:08   that I'm just not sure whether there are a lot of things that can be done to make [TS]

01:32:11   it [TS]

01:32:12   you know easy I think it's going to always be hard cause businesses hard and [TS]

01:32:18   he comes back again to what we've been saying which is what level of attention [TS]

01:32:22   to the Apple want to devote to this market and this product line because on [TS]

01:32:26   one level if you look at the numbers on their own it is a very sizable business [TS]

01:32:32   and on another level it is in the shadow of an enormous business and I think [TS]

01:32:36   that's been to the detriment of the iPad all along the existence the iPhone is as [TS]

01:32:41   great as it is for Apple it makes it so easy to ignore the IP right and I wrote [TS]

01:32:46   I wrote about Brian somebody's somebody's article I wrote a piece on [TS]

01:32:52   during fireball sort of taking a guy article part for arguing that Apple is [TS]

01:32:57   in trouble because the iPhone is so big but I think I do think that there it's [TS]

01:33:04   not that Apple is actually in danger because the iPad iPhone businesses so [TS]

01:33:09   big but I do think that there there are plenty of arguments to me that it's it's [TS]

01:33:15   not good overall that the iPhone is so big but they're subtle arguments and for [TS]

01:33:20   example one of them is that the iPad lacks attention [TS]

01:33:25   yeah yeah it's not right exactly right [TS]

01:33:28   the danger of having such a wildly successful business every piece about [TS]

01:33:32   this like a year ago in six colors and it was all just about the crushing math [TS]

01:33:36   of the iPhone right like it's so big that it's very hard if you're a [TS]

01:33:40   responsible manager in Apple not to always choose the iPhone because every [TS]

01:33:47   little bit you do [TS]

01:33:48   improves you know if you do all things that improves the iPhone by 1% you've [TS]

01:33:52   you've made up you have to improve the iPad sales by 40% or whatever I don't [TS]

01:33:57   whatever the number is but it would be it's just an enormously different scale [TS]

01:34:01   and so you need the discipline to say this business is also important and it [TS]

01:34:05   deserves a percentage of our time but I can tell you as the guy who worked at [TS]

01:34:10   Macworld that once we were part of PC world which was larger than us [TS]

01:34:16   it became very difficult to get people to pay attention to us because we were a [TS]

01:34:21   small fraction of the business and if you [TS]

01:34:25   you know it takes some discipline to say I have to businesses that I run and I [TS]

01:34:28   need them both to succeed and it's very easy to say well where can I get the [TS]

01:34:33   most return it's the big business so let's just invest in the big business [TS]

01:34:37   and not worry about the small business and sometimes I see that with the iPhone [TS]

01:34:40   and the iPad yeah it's it's a much more nuanced argument to be had but I do [TS]

01:34:47   think it's it's there and it clearly sort of stands out so switching gears a [TS]

01:34:52   little bit there's this article I have not written about it and didn't even [TS]

01:34:56   read it until just before re-recorded but Fast Company an article this week by [TS]

01:35:02   Bruce Hagen Azimi aka tog and Don Norman Norman group oh yeah yeah yeah it's the [TS]

01:35:17   nielsen yeah and this this article broke my heart because I mean are you a fan of [TS]

01:35:26   talk back in the day yeah I guess I get tog on design Todd was a guy who was a [TS]

01:35:35   Apple again the eighties and really kind of spearheaded the original Human [TS]

01:35:40   Interface Guidelines and talk on design I don't know how I got my hands on it [TS]

01:35:45   because it was sometimes it was hard to get those books back then I don't know [TS]

01:35:49   but at some point like in high school I got my hands on top gun design and I [TS]

01:35:55   realize I was like so it was the sort of thing I love thinking about but it it it [TS]

01:36:03   was like this is what I want to do with my life I guess at the time I thought [TS]

01:36:06   more I wanted to design interfaces and do that and instead I've but I was right [TS]

01:36:12   in a way though I just instead of really doing much design work I just think [TS]

01:36:15   about them in comment on them but I knew that this was the field that I wanted to [TS]

01:36:20   to dig into and when I remember in particular about our gun design was he [TS]

01:36:26   had this whole chapter about [TS]

01:36:29   how they started with check boxes and a check box was on or off [TS]

01:36:38   01 and not very hard at all and I think it even got into a member of the Old [TS]

01:36:44   Market did used to be filled in with an axe instead of a track like a phantom [TS]

01:36:51   inside the square yeah weird i mean this talking we're talking like system 6 [TS]

01:36:55   system 7 like before they were color but then the other thing but the the the the [TS]

01:37:01   meat of the chapter though was that they encountered there were certain scenarios [TS]

01:37:05   where something that clearly was asking for a checkbox could have an [TS]

01:37:11   indeterminate state and it was an honour off but it was like half way and I can't [TS]

01:37:18   think of an example of the top man but that he had a good example it's that I [TS]

01:37:22   remember the role of the idea of a roll-up where you've got you've got a [TS]

01:37:25   couple boxes there checked [TS]

01:37:27   underneath and the roll-up is where you can toggle something on and off and some [TS]

01:37:32   of them are checking some of them were not so you can't say that the roll-up is [TS]

01:37:35   on or off its in this indeterminate [TS]

01:37:38   some some on some off right now here's an example an example would be let's say [TS]

01:37:43   I select the name Jason and I hit command I and i italicized in the middle [TS]

01:37:51   of a sentence where the sentence wasn't it Alex and when I guess to have Jason [TS]

01:37:56   selected or I select just the J and I got to the menu where it shows me at [TS]

01:38:01   Alexs the word at Alexander Mann you would have a check next to it that's a [TS]

01:38:05   check mark a check box but it still is a check and it's the same problem what do [TS]

01:38:09   you do though when I select your name and the next word where one of them is a [TS]

01:38:16   one word is italicized one is not what do you put next to the word italic and [TS]

01:38:20   they were stumped by this and then the solution eventually came to a night they [TS]

01:38:24   still use is to use like a dash so there's a check to say that it's on but [TS]

01:38:30   then there's a dash to show that it's gone it's complicated [TS]

01:38:36   I chapter and the fact that they some company that you know and I i new Apple [TS]

01:38:42   is at the time and a new apple computer company that I was most interested in [TS]

01:38:46   but the fact that they had they had clearly spend as much time thinking [TS]

01:38:49   about this problem as in my imagination Apple spent on problems like this that [TS]

01:38:54   you could just go off and have like a team of your top people spend like a [TS]

01:38:58   week trying to figure out how to solve the problem of what do you use when a [TS]

01:39:01   check mark isn't quite right I like this this is what I want to do like 20 but he [TS]

01:39:07   was clearly somebody who like inspired me to get into this industry this our [TS]

01:39:13   hall pass company embraced it so bad I told you read it before the show what [TS]

01:39:22   did you think yup yah I think what I had my response was it's just as bad as I [TS]

01:39:25   had heard from seeing it linked everywhere you know they're couple [TS]

01:39:31   things going on here it's how Apple's giving design about that name as the [TS]

01:39:35   headline that's the actual headline of the are now a lot of the way it's played [TS]

01:39:39   and I can't tell how much of this is the writers and how much of that this is the [TS]

01:39:43   editors they want the street to be how current Apple Design is a failure they [TS]

01:39:50   want this to be about the you know the sort of last couple of years functional [TS]

01:39:55   high ground skew morphism debate kind of issues have left Apple in a place where [TS]

01:40:00   it's kinda lost it that's the story that they that they want to tell and fast [TS]

01:40:06   company design wants to tell right that's that's that's the story the [TS]

01:40:10   problem is and this is richard harris who used to work at Apple he tweeted a [TS]

01:40:15   link to this and my response was I love those guys but you realize they've been [TS]

01:40:19   complaining about Apple designed for like twenty years now and that's one of [TS]

01:40:23   my problems with it is I think it's well I know it is disingenuous I just not [TS]

01:40:29   sure exactly who's being how disingenuous it is disingenuous to [TS]

01:40:33   suggest that this is a comment about anything Apple has done just in the last [TS]

01:40:38   couple of years because these guys have been complaining these guys have not [TS]

01:40:43   been an Apple since basically it right when Steve Jobs came back and they have [TS]

01:40:47   been complaining about Apple's bad [TS]

01:40:49   designed for a very long time they have been complaining about it they complain [TS]

01:40:54   about the iPhone design you know and I don't want to say that they don't have [TS]

01:40:58   valid complaints some of the complaints about usability are right there are some [TS]

01:41:03   aspects where there's that the old man yells at Cloud kind of thing where [TS]

01:41:06   they're like it's it's totally Apple's fault but why is Google following them [TS]

01:41:10   and Microsoft is also doing things that aren't a great we're like oh so [TS]

01:41:14   everybody then accept you because you know how to do this and nobody else does [TS]

01:41:17   and you know again there's plenty to criticize here but I'm not sure this is [TS]

01:41:22   the article that the does the best job of it because it's not new for them to [TS]

01:41:27   criticize Apple Design I've been doing it a very long time I i think a lot of [TS]

01:41:30   the things that criticized are not recent their root issues about the [TS]

01:41:34   touchscreen interface where they don't like it and there is this little veneer [TS]

01:41:38   that I have to I have to say I find it distasteful or I feel like you know [TS]

01:41:42   they're really mad that there aren't drop down menus and that there's not the [TS]

01:41:47   discovery building is what they did with the drop-down menus and stuff in the [TS]

01:41:50   early Mac and that was aces and now you know now that these devices are [TS]

01:41:55   discoverable like that and they're right that they're not but you know it's we've [TS]

01:42:03   come a long way since then and there are kind of different metaphors that work [TS]

01:42:06   there and you can dislike them all you like but it's very difficult to play [TS]

01:42:10   this as being like Apple isn't it isn't designed tailspin last couple years [TS]

01:42:14   because if you really went back and looked at what these guys have been [TS]

01:42:17   criticizing they've been saying apples bananas designs tailspin for like 15 [TS]

01:42:21   years or twenty in the yeare if you had told me a few years ago that Norman [TS]

01:42:30   would read this article about design in 2015 I might have thought a few years [TS]

01:42:36   ago who that might be really good and the reason why I think at a fundamental [TS]

01:42:43   level they have a sort of the approach designed from what I would describe as a [TS]

01:42:49   sort of academic background and they use a sort of academic [TS]

01:42:54   level of rigor and they they are both famously very very strong proponents of [TS]

01:43:00   user testing where you get real people and you study them in a very formal way [TS]

01:43:07   and with you know with a real procedural aspect to it and you study you know a/b [TS]

01:43:16   test all sorts of different things and measure response times and and stuff [TS]

01:43:20   like that and Apple you know the modern Apple that they're comparing to call it [TS]

01:43:30   cowboy but it is definitely not academic it is a lot more of a liberal arts style [TS]

01:43:36   approach to design and that to me there are differences and there's definitely [TS]

01:43:41   some things you know i i think you could there there's on this general subject a [TS]

01:43:47   book should be read in a wonderful thoughtful book that would you know be [TS]

01:43:52   worth referring to for decades to come by talking about the differences between [TS]

01:43:58   the old apple that was more academic in its approach to user interface design in [TS]

01:44:04   the new Apple which is not and this article is not it [TS]

01:44:09   this article is definitely more old man yells it at the cloud just broke my [TS]

01:44:17   heart I remember so I started a Mac user as an intern in the summer of 93 so was [TS]

01:44:23   like right when the news came out it was it was in the sculley era and then I got [TS]

01:44:27   to work there through the through the sort of darker even darker times and [TS]

01:44:31   they got darker still in jobs came back and these guys are both representatives [TS]

01:44:34   of that kind of like first half of Apple's existence and you're right you [TS]

01:44:39   know I don't know how much you had any interaction with Apple at that time I [TS]

01:44:44   was just a Super Junior editor so I did have a lot of it but that Apple was so [TS]

01:44:47   unlike the Apple that Steve Jobs fashion when he came back because it was like [TS]

01:44:52   super they had pie in the sky are indeed they were super academic focused and the [TS]

01:44:58   problem was that they spend a whole lot of money and they had a hard time [TS]

01:45:01   shipping products and I'm not saying that these guys are brilliant and that [TS]

01:45:07   they don't [TS]

01:45:07   make some good points but it was a different company then and the results [TS]

01:45:15   of when Steve Jobs came back and said you know we're not gonna be like that [TS]

01:45:19   anymore we're gonna be like this they start to ship some really great products [TS]

01:45:23   now where they compromised in ways that perhaps some of the earlier Apple [TS]

01:45:27   products weren't maybe but those early Apple products were compromised all [TS]

01:45:30   sorts of other ways so you know it it's the academic Apple I would say as much [TS]

01:45:37   as I appreciated conceptually I got to live through the the latter days of it [TS]

01:45:42   and it was bad i mean he was they did a bad job with products and they might [TS]

01:45:46   have been thinking about a really hard but the actual company was falling apart [TS]

01:45:50   in the products were bad and I you know I don't talk was long gone I think by [TS]

01:45:54   then but you know I don't know this article yet there's some there's some [TS]

01:45:58   old man yells a cloud in here where it's like why is nobody listening to us and [TS]

01:46:02   why are all the touchscreen interface is bad and I don't agree that they're bad [TS]

01:46:05   there's some value criticism in there they have some very they pick on some [TS]

01:46:08   very specific things that are very obviously problematic in the way Apple's [TS]

01:46:15   products are designed I think and totally totally valid and then there's [TS]

01:46:19   the third thing at work and that's what I can tell it whether it's how much of [TS]

01:46:22   it is fast company and how much of it is the writers which is what's the [TS]

01:46:26   newspaper this how do we make this relevant and the answer is to sort of [TS]

01:46:29   play up that Apple is suddenly gotten to this point and you know these are the [TS]

01:46:34   guys who cried wolf this is this is an alert about what's going on right now [TS]

01:46:39   and the fact that these are the guys who cried wolf these guys have been [TS]

01:46:41   complaining about Apple designed for years then there's aspects of it [TS]

01:46:45   of their criticism that to me or just wrong like they're complaining about [TS]

01:46:49   that on like the iPhone and i guess i pad but like on iOS that the fonts are [TS]

01:46:54   22 then to read and I think that was true of the Iowa seven public beta I [TS]

01:47:02   guess it wasn't a public beta but I when I was 7 was first shown two years ago to [TS]

01:47:06   be the BBC and they were using the really lightweight version [TS]

01:47:10   yeah we have Helvetica Neue throughout the UI including it was added to fall [TS]

01:47:15   fight for the body of an email I would totally agree I think that was to that [TS]

01:47:20   but they change that before it even shipped the fonts are not too thin and [TS]

01:47:26   they're saying they kept saying that the contrast is too low [TS]

01:47:29   almost all the texts I read on my phone is black text on a white background or [TS]

01:47:33   even like messages where you've got these colored backgrounds I don't think [TS]

01:47:37   it's a lack of contrast and I think that the the font size choice [TS]

01:47:46   system wide control of the fun thing is really great in Iowa s III I think that [TS]

01:47:51   they're told I think it I think that what they're saying is a problem is [TS]

01:47:56   actually one of the things that iOS does great I think and especially with the [TS]

01:48:00   switch to San Francisco I think text has done nothing but get more readable on [TS]

01:48:05   screen and I said somebody with less than perfect vision at this point I [TS]

01:48:10   think I think some of what they're picking up on his is some technical [TS]

01:48:13   issues which again makes it makes you feel a little more dated which is some [TS]

01:48:18   apps have been really adopted the text size [TS]

01:48:21   the system light exercise for medical Google's apps last time I checked it [TS]

01:48:25   didn't do it right and so my mom was using the Gmail app and she was she got [TS]

01:48:32   an iPhone 6 now so it scaled up and it's bigger and you can read about her but [TS]

01:48:35   she wanted to scale up the font and but use the Gmail app and it does doesn't [TS]

01:48:40   scale up and you know that's a that's a technical issue where app developers [TS]

01:48:44   aren't adopting it to the idea that you can set a system might exercise if you [TS]

01:48:48   wanted bigger or smaller is is not a bad line to it which bothered ya like slacks [TS]

01:48:54   default font size is actually beneath the threshold of what I can comfortably [TS]

01:48:58   read and they don't follow the system might setting and I don't want to change [TS]

01:49:02   my system ID setting for slack because I like the default system ID setting for [TS]

01:49:05   the system but I feel like if you're going to go with a custom font which [TS]

01:49:10   like has been you need custom font size but anyway I really doubt that Norman [TS]

01:49:15   and target talking about slack but [TS]

01:49:17   my big problem with it with I think the premise of the article that is [TS]

01:49:21   destroying design is that in the end it's so reductive what they're basically [TS]

01:49:25   saying is look there are two ways to do design and one is you start in the user [TS]

01:49:29   and you think about how about usability and you build the design from at any [TS]

01:49:33   other ways you just care about how it looks and you don't care about it and [TS]

01:49:36   apples doing that and we think you should do this like I think it's really [TS]

01:49:40   unfair to say that Apple is doing that I think Apple I think the fact that Google [TS]

01:49:44   and Microsoft are also doing it to a great degree suggests that they're all [TS]

01:49:47   struggling with how you do touch interfaces and create discoverability I [TS]

01:49:51   think you know i i dont think as long as it looks pretty the usability doesn't [TS]

01:49:55   matter at the way more complicated story than that I do think it's true that you [TS]

01:49:58   know Jony ive has a huge amount of weight and he is a very visual designer [TS]

01:50:02   and so there perhaps is too much of an emphasis on that in a lot of the [TS]

01:50:06   decisions Apple makes them the that he might need a counterbalance of some sort [TS]

01:50:10   that isn't there but not to the extremes that this article seemed to take it [TS]

01:50:15   where it's the destruction of design and it's all about style over function and I [TS]

01:50:19   just don't you know I don't they are you they are you in favor of the Android [TS]

01:50:23   system wide back button which which if you've used it I feel I find I haven't [TS]

01:50:30   no I haven't used it in a while I do have a new Android phone here that I've [TS]

01:50:34   been trying just to try to stay up on it but my history with the introduction was [TS]

01:50:38   infuriating because you never knew where it would take you there previous appt [TS]

01:50:43   the previous function in this app [TS]

01:50:46   back to the home screen right to the home screen back to them I thought I was [TS]

01:50:50   going back it's a really bad and they don't mention that iOS has added I think [TS]

01:50:56   a very clever [TS]

01:50:58   system wide feature in iOS nine which is effectively gives you that he gives you [TS]

01:51:02   that cross application back so that when you're in mail and eat Apple Inc and you [TS]

01:51:07   go to Safari and you just want to go back to where you were [TS]

01:51:09   which is a real problem and iOS wasn't great at but now actually is really [TS]

01:51:14   pretty good at because it it both gives you like just tap here to go back to [TS]

01:51:20   where you were but way better than Android it tells you it's going to take [TS]

01:51:24   you as it goes back to mail the whole thing that drives some beauty [TS]

01:51:31   discoverability right which is exactly what they say that Apple's not doing now [TS]

01:51:35   they do make some good but I think I feel like they could have been a whole [TS]

01:51:38   article about but it would have you know the old style would have been to also [TS]

01:51:43   proposed a solution but they do point out that undue is better on the Mac then [TS]

01:51:49   on iOS because on the Mac pretty much everything you do you can just go [TS]

01:51:53   command Z and a whole lot of things that you could what might want to undo you [TS]

01:51:59   can undo and iOS undue is is literally like a joke like they didn't know what [TS]

01:52:05   to do they knew they didn't have it and an engineer at Apple I guess joe said [TS]

01:52:11   well we could just make it shake the phone and undo it and got forestall was [TS]

01:52:16   like great let's do it like no no that's not really a let's do it like actually [TS]

01:52:23   Intec Intech starting with ISA undue is better because the SmartBar whatever the [TS]

01:52:29   cult quick bar has undo icon on it so if you're in text you can at least undo it [TS]

01:52:35   and they're undo buttons and other places but it's not it's not systemwide [TS]

01:52:39   using a keyboard in which case you can usually come and see now and I do but [TS]

01:52:43   yeah that the bumping the phone thing was always there's nothing worse than [TS]

01:52:47   around the world and you see somebody like shaking their phone like a [TS]

01:52:49   tambourine because they need to try and get that thing back they just did by [TS]

01:52:54   mistake so it's interesting it is there's an interesting argument is made [TS]

01:52:59   there you know given the the the idea that basic just of the iOS interface how [TS]

01:53:05   do you implement undo it took it's a heck of a puzzle and Apple clearly [TS]

01:53:09   hasn't solved yet and I don't know what the answer is but on the other hand I [TS]

01:53:12   really don't think that it's a real-world problem that set us back like [TS]

01:53:19   what I see in the real world and again I just feel like they have missed it is I [TS]

01:53:24   see real people who were doing more stuff with either the iPhone or even if [TS]

01:53:30   it's like Android which is clearly follows the iPhone iPhones fundamental [TS]

01:53:34   idea of what the designers like that they're they're doing more than they [TS]

01:53:39   ever did on their old computers [TS]

01:53:41   because there it's actually is a better design for for most people right because [TS]

01:53:48   of the amount of complexity that's been packed into that screen it's actually [TS]

01:53:51   kind of a harder challenge and people feel really comfortable using their [TS]

01:53:54   phones I one last sponsor thank and it's our good friends at Harry's you guys [TS]

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01:54:10   they just sent me just got a new thing they have a facial wash you know I've [TS]

01:54:15   got a fancy fancy facial wash I can take with me in the shower great products [TS]

01:54:20   like that you guys have heard of them before they just wanted to show many [TS]

01:54:25   times but what they want me to tell you about right now and remind you while [TS]

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01:54:34   foundation and they are donating money and helping to raise awareness for men's [TS]

01:54:40   health november is the thing where would you do is you grow a moustache for the [TS]

01:54:46   month of November and then when people ask you are you growing a mustache then [TS]

01:54:51   you tell them I'm doing it from November it's a thing where we raise awareness [TS]

01:54:55   for men's health issues like a gimmick you could do it while you're writing [TS]

01:55:00   your national National Novel Writing Month grow a mustache ride a novel well [TS]

01:55:07   harry's is a big partner in this they do all sorts of good stuff in there raising [TS]

01:55:11   money for this and the top it off the fact that they're they're raising money [TS]

01:55:17   for a great cause they make great products and its super super convenient [TS]

01:55:21   where you can just get into the get into the harry's products and then you just [TS]

01:55:27   never have to go by shaving stuff again you to sign up for it you get find out [TS]

01:55:31   how frequently need new blade and they just shipped here really high quality [TS]

01:55:36   stuff great blade they own their own factory over in germany great handle [TS]

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01:55:45   tried from them [TS]

01:55:45   I really like amazing packaging really cool stuff and the website is super easy [TS]

01:55:52   to use my dad who's not really that good with computers my dad saw that they are [TS]

01:55:58   always sponsoring my stuff he needs to shave he signed up where he actually [TS]

01:56:02   navigated the website and body called me to tell me how proud he was super super [TS]

01:56:08   easy they say you can get started in 30 seconds or less I believe it it's that [TS]

01:56:12   easy to sort of go there pick what you want your name your credit card [TS]

01:56:16   your address most of that stuff from us you probably auto fills and then boom [TS]

01:56:20   next thing you know two days to three days later you got a nice larry's kit in [TS]

01:56:24   the mail also makes a great gift so if you want to get somebody else in your [TS]

01:56:29   family a little starter kit from Harry's for the holidays [TS]

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01:56:37   go to Harry's dot com and enter the code talk show these guys don't have the [TS]

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01:56:49   you can get started with a code talk show you get the starter kit for just 10 [TS]

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01:57:00   go to Harry's dot com slash talk show you've got a membership they go on at [TS]

01:57:06   six colors that was that was what I was going to mention so yeah yeah I i I did [TS]

01:57:11   it's been like a year [TS]

01:57:12   fussing about whether I wanted to do it and the implementation actually took me [TS]

01:57:17   an hour or so after a year of saying don't want to do this but i wanna do [TS]

01:57:21   this I I did it in an hour so how did you how to how does that work how did [TS]

01:57:26   you cause I had its funny I did memberships for daring fireball a long [TS]

01:57:30   time ago I got the card and it really the only thing anybody ever got out of [TS]

01:57:35   it was a card and I kind of moved away from it and it's not kind of I totally [TS]

01:57:42   moved away from it but I it I spent an awful lot of time implementing it and I [TS]

01:57:47   didn't have any features I think it's just me stubbornly trying to build [TS]

01:57:51   everything for daring fireball myself [TS]

01:57:54   so what are the mechanics behind it at six cars so yeah so technically [TS]

01:58:01   fortunately there is a company that has integration with stripe which does [TS]

01:58:07   credit card processing called member full and Ben Thompson uses them for [TS]

01:58:12   secretary federico uses them for Mac stories and I had been looking at them [TS]

01:58:17   sense of mid-year 446 colors and they're very easy to work with you pay the [TS]

01:58:23   monthly fee and they take a percentage of the credit card transaction which [TS]

01:58:26   includes percent It's going to stripe and and they and you drop some they've [TS]

01:58:33   got a WordPress integration but of course like you I'm using movable-type [TS]

01:58:36   which has no integration but there's a javascript integration where you put [TS]

01:58:39   some javascript in the header of the page and it basically takes all the [TS]

01:58:43   links to member -full and turns them into little pop ups and I can email from [TS]

01:58:48   somebody said it was the easiest ecommerce thing they'd ever seen because [TS]

01:58:52   they never left the page you you know you click on a little box comes up the [TS]

01:58:56   street box comes up and on the back end member full does all the membership they [TS]

01:59:01   provide is the sign up stuff and they keep track of the members and you can [TS]

01:59:05   cancel and renew and update your information and all of that using their [TS]

01:59:10   servers and then they have immigrations with other things so there's a benefit [TS]

01:59:14   in the primary reason for it is to say you know you want to support me and what [TS]

01:59:18   I'm doing and the more people who do that the less freelance work I'll take [TS]

01:59:23   their some freelance work I really like to do for various reasons but there's a [TS]

01:59:26   lot of it that I in the first year of being an independent person I've said [TS]

01:59:30   yes to because it's very hard to turn down money when you're starting out you [TS]

01:59:34   don't have a salary anymore and some of those yes I would like to turn into nose [TS]

01:59:39   and instead spend that time reading more on six colors but that's that's the [TS]

01:59:43   premise but I also didn't want to be a purely a kind of karmic subscription [TS]

01:59:49   where I don't want to go out and say hey give me money because you'll feel good [TS]

01:59:53   and you help me I wanted to at least give something back as I felt like it [TS]

01:59:56   was important that there be something tangible as a part of it so although I [TS]

02:00:01   did think about the the membership cards like like the one I've got for daring [TS]

02:00:04   fireball when I decide two ways to do I want [TS]

02:00:07   newsletter and I was thinking about frequency and we wanted to be weekly [TS]

02:00:12   sometimes that's a bit much for people do I wanted to be every other week and I [TS]

02:00:18   decided for the start at least I wanted to be monthly and I'll try to make it a [TS]

02:00:21   little more substantial and at that point I'm doing a monthly release I [TS]

02:00:25   might as well call it like the six colors magazine and that's mostly [TS]

02:00:28   because you know I used to work in a magazine timurian he write some stuff at [TS]

02:00:32   the site you know he works he worked at a time magazine to its not gonna be like [TS]

02:00:36   a super fancy magazine magazine it's gonna be a monthly you know a bunch of [TS]

02:00:41   words and some pictures in a newsletter but that's what we're gonna do monthly [TS]

02:00:45   for the subscribers and maybe throw in some extra stuff so they'll be something [TS]

02:00:49   that only people who pay can get but the goal is not to like get content on the [TS]

02:00:53   site or anything like that the site [TS]

02:00:55   the goal is actually the use the the money from the people who are [TS]

02:00:57   subscribers to generate a lot more stuff on the site for everybody to see so the [TS]

02:01:03   combination of Kerman getting something in return right and if there's a certain [TS]

02:01:07   you know however a fast typist but there's still a limit to how many words [TS]

02:01:11   are gonna come out of your fingertips and a month to get more of those more of [TS]

02:01:15   that writing on six colors done that unless a bit better spent about the doc [TS]

02:01:20   kompas.com you can spell with you can spell colors with you though but it is [TS]

02:01:26   a.com I was really hung up on getting a dot com for this one but but yeah that's [TS]

02:01:31   that is why I think I would say that's the number one feature of the sick [TS]

02:01:35   sailor subscription is not the newsletter [TS]

02:01:37   magazine it's that the more people subscribe the more I can do and honestly [TS]

02:01:44   also the more I can pay Dan Moren to do and more stuff we will do on the site [TS]

02:01:48   instead of taking an assignment for something that you know that is not [TS]

02:01:52   going to be on the site it might be honest with you no ads on it that you [TS]

02:01:56   don't want to see you're on a subject that you don't really care about you [TS]

02:02:00   know we'd like to be able to do less of that and more $6 because you know it's [TS]

02:02:03   like more of what you want to see ya and I find and I'm sure that you feel the [TS]

02:02:09   same way but it's when I went full-time return fire but it wasn't just about [TS]

02:02:13   getting the revenue up to the level where [TS]

02:02:15   I could call it a salary it it it mattered to me that it was coming from [TS]

02:02:22   multiple sources like I wanted it to be a stool with three or four legs and sure [TS]

02:02:28   maybe one of the legs would get bigger overtime like I get more money from say [TS]

02:02:33   the weekly RSS sponsorships then the deck or whatever but that may be five [TS]

02:02:40   years from now that there that would change though and maybe if you know the [TS]

02:02:43   demand for the RSS sponsorships were waned maybe the deck would get more [TS]

02:02:48   popular or whatever but I just felt much better when I had four or five things [TS]

02:02:54   that were all contributing to wow that I can call that I can actually say I do [TS]

02:02:59   this full time then if it was all coming from one source because that just made [TS]

02:03:04   me very nervous because what happened you know as we've seen the industry [TS]

02:03:08   changes they used to be popular don't aren't popular forever and direct [TS]

02:03:14   support from users is the one that I feel like if it if it works [TS]

02:03:19   boy that's one that should should stay consistent as long as I keep doing good [TS]

02:03:23   work right and diversifying is is definitely a part of it I did hear from [TS]

02:03:28   a bunch of people when I launch the site is that I want to support you and I'm [TS]

02:03:32   not going to sponsor your website design nothing to sponsor and right now that's [TS]

02:03:35   the least that seems to be the only way that you're being supported basically [TS]

02:03:38   saying your ad supported why don't you also be reader supported and that was [TS]

02:03:42   definitely a motivator to make this happen is it wasn't just my scheme like [TS]

02:03:45   they will pay me money haha it was people saying I will I will pay you [TS]

02:03:49   money let me pay you money for what you do and so that was part of the plan but [TS]

02:03:54   you're right it's also about the first thing I saw that during the during the [TS]

02:03:57   recession that you know at at IDG a company that is largely run by [TS]

02:04:03   salespeople that there is that moment when the sales go off the cliff where [TS]

02:04:07   suddenly the fact that you've got these hundreds of thousands of paying [TS]

02:04:10   subscribers became a much greater asset than they had ever appreciated because [TS]

02:04:15   those people were still there and they were still paying even though all of [TS]

02:04:19   your clients that used to sell ads to have had vanished because they're afraid [TS]

02:04:23   of the recession and that that lesson stuck with me that [TS]

02:04:27   being diversified is not a bad thing and when I left macro that was always part [TS]

02:04:31   of my plan was to have like some money coming in said in Kabul has sponsorship [TS]

02:04:36   so some money coming in from that and I want to do tech podcasting so I i do a [TS]

02:04:41   couple things that relay and this money coming in from that and and six colors I [TS]

02:04:45   figured ok if I can do weekly sponsor like you do wondering fireball that [TS]

02:04:48   there would be some money coming in from that and then that was my plan sort of [TS]

02:04:52   like the three-pronged attack and in reality I picked up some freelance [TS]

02:04:56   writing work which I hadn't planned and and then there was the stinking floating [TS]

02:05:02   out there about the reader support so that that makes it that much more [TS]

02:05:06   diverse and also let's meet gives me the freedom like I said of making some [TS]

02:05:10   decisions of saying no is the first year and I felt like it was very hard for me [TS]

02:05:14   to say no to anything because like you know you don't have a job and these [TS]

02:05:18   people will pay you money to write an article and you can read that article so [TS]

02:05:21   why don't you go ahead and read that article at some point you need to be [TS]

02:05:24   able to do this with you with mackerel right where I finally one of these days [TS]

02:05:27   I came to you and I said you want to read a Backpage com you don't need to do [TS]

02:05:31   that anymore but it was a huge deal to me when it happened I mean it was it did [TS]

02:05:36   come about at a time when I was you know it it it's a lot more successful now [TS]

02:05:45   they used to be but it was never there is never any point where it was like wow [TS]

02:05:48   all of a sudden it's it's successful it's just been like a slow steady [TS]

02:05:52   increase and you know ten years ago [TS]

02:05:55   you know getting to write about page come from Macworld you know maybe 12 [TS]

02:05:59   you're so actually was like yeah we need that money I remember very clearly you [TS]

02:06:06   wrote a how-to article for me about it and you were doing during fire by the [TS]

02:06:12   time you read this article is like a two page 3 page how-to article and I [TS]

02:06:16   remember later you said to me I think I might have made more money from that [TS]

02:06:20   article and I made from Darren fireball was really really early on [TS]

02:06:25   freelancer at the macro were really good backs yeah I mean that was that was in [TS]

02:06:30   the early days and then and then you know and then over the over time you [TS]

02:06:33   make more money from during fireball and there comes a point where you say you [TS]

02:06:37   know what I need to say no to things and I need to focus on the thing [TS]

02:06:40   I want to do that and and I had the ability to do that now because of the [TS]

02:06:44   money that spring and ultimately I said this in my in my post about $6 [TS]

02:06:49   membership is ultimately what I would love to do is to six colors and some [TS]

02:06:56   podcasts as my job that would that would be like the perfect thing and I'm not [TS]

02:07:02   I'm not at that point yet but I would love I would love to be able to get [TS]

02:07:05   there and then the membership thing helps me helps me move toward that yeah [TS]

02:07:09   so how's the reaction been so far it's been good a little number in my head of [TS]

02:07:15   of how many people I hoped would be done [TS]

02:07:19   you know would sign up after the first of week and it's within like fifteen of [TS]

02:07:25   that after the first week which I was really happy about because I thought [TS]

02:07:29   that was just the beginning and I you know I haven't even mentioned it very [TS]

02:07:33   many places other than on Twitter and on the site so you know there's more people [TS]

02:07:39   who will hear about it over time and so I hope that that number will grow so I [TS]

02:07:42   am pretty happy with that initial like week one number i think thats I think [TS]

02:07:46   that's pretty good I'm surprised the percentage of people who choose the [TS]

02:07:50   annual and just pay for a year up front is is much larger and I thought about [TS]

02:07:54   three-quarters yeah but I did and that's beautiful because those people who say [TS]

02:07:58   look I'm not gonna try it out for a month I'm I mean I'm in the year I think [TS]

02:08:02   that I think that's really great so well going pretty well and member phil has [TS]

02:08:06   made it really easy so that's they're not paying me to say this but that [TS]

02:08:10   that's made it a lot easier to do not have to deal with a lot of the stuff [TS]

02:08:13   that I was afraid of that dealing with a deal with money and I've only heard from [TS]

02:08:18   two people who said what I expected which was I pay you know I paid $60 a [TS]

02:08:24   year for Mac worldwide are $50 for Macworld why am I paying $6 here for six [TS]

02:08:28   colors and the answer is well you're doing this to support me number one and [TS]

02:08:32   number two macworld was able to have hundreds of thousands of people pay them [TS]

02:08:36   and I'm not gonna have to tell you what if I have a hundred hundreds of [TS]

02:08:40   thousands of people paying me for a six pack up the price [TS]

02:08:46   I i guess i I never though so it's ok my reaction is to laugh and then I wanna [TS]

02:08:54   stop laughing cuz I want to say I I never want to tell other people what to [TS]

02:08:58   do with their money and and I agree it's a very personal thing and if that's [TS]

02:09:02   really how you feel okay but you know I do feel like there's a teaching moment [TS]

02:09:06   there about the scale of something like six colors are daring and therefore to [TS]

02:09:13   both of those people I replied to both of those people and I had somebody [TS]

02:09:16   coming out you shouldn't don't reply to this people say no i i think it's a [TS]

02:09:20   teachable moment to say look you know this is mostly about supporting me it's [TS]

02:09:24   not you know I i'm not supported [TS]

02:09:26   ad-supported at the level of of something like a Macworld but you know [TS]

02:09:30   one percent of its coming into you know we don't have a lot of corporate over [TS]

02:09:34   over structure here and get you should do it because you want more stuff on [TS]

02:09:38   this site that you like and if that makes you feel good and you want to get [TS]

02:09:42   some benefits out of the two then you should do it and if you don't want to do [TS]

02:09:45   it that's fine [TS]

02:09:46   the site still free I'm not making you feel bad about it I'm not trying to get [TS]

02:09:50   people into giving me money please continue to read the site via RSS feeds [TS]

02:09:55   for the website is free [TS]

02:09:57   keep reading the site and both people responded positively and one of them [TS]

02:10:00   actually said I'll pay so you know that's not bad batting 500 there it [TS]

02:10:06   makes a lot of sense it makes me warms my heart makes me feel good about the [TS]

02:10:09   state of humanity yeah yeah I agree well I i I knew you're talking about and I [TS]

02:10:16   you know I'm the master of having ideas to do things like with the site or start [TS]

02:10:23   a new site or something and then you know years go by and yeah I'm still [TS]

02:10:26   thinking about it so I knew you were thinking about this from a while ago [TS]

02:10:30   when you first struck out on your own but I think hitting it right on Mike [TS]

02:10:34   right around the one-year anniversary was somehow felt right [TS]

02:10:39   yeah yeah any anyway I'm glad that it in the end it's a bonus feature that I got [TS]

02:10:44   a little more of a track record to do it even though I was just hopelessly [TS]

02:10:49   procrastinating and it's hard it's hard to ask for money from people it really [TS]

02:10:55   is and you don't know whether they're gonna get their judging you at that [TS]

02:10:59   point so that makes [TS]

02:11:00   a little harder and I got better over the first year and asking sponsors for [TS]

02:11:04   money but at asking the audience asking the readers for money is just this is [TS]

02:11:10   why I'm not an ad sales and so it I think ultimately that's why it took me a [TS]

02:11:13   year to actually do it is that I just every time I thought about like man I [TS]

02:11:19   don't really want to do that and I would just put it off so you know finally I [TS]

02:11:22   got kind of spread into it and and given a deadline and buy some friends whom I [TS]

02:11:28   was like alright okay I gotta gotta make it happen in November so let's do it so [TS]

02:11:32   I did it well I'm glad you did [TS]

02:11:35   and anybody out there who's think I might go check out six colors that [TS]

02:11:38   common you can see how to become a subscriber yourself Jason I thank you [TS]

02:11:45   for your time [TS]

02:11:46   anything else you want to promote prevention some of these other podcasts [TS]

02:11:52   are on your own accounting right here [TS]

02:11:55   gonna make too many I'm not sure I can count that I i want for for a weekly [TS]

02:12:08   podcast and then others that kind of come and go with the wind but upgrade [TS]

02:12:12   and and clockwise on relay and and the income from all those are those of the [TS]

02:12:17   big three and you know that new Star Wars movies coming out maybe maybe I [TS]

02:12:24   need to talk to you about that sometime might be a good one during the holidays [TS]

02:12:31   Holiday Spectacular last year were you know and that's another zone where [TS]

02:12:38   there's no news happening around the holidays we just talked about Star Wars [TS]

02:12:41   and now we're gonna have a new Star Wars movie but I wonder is is it is it fair [TS]

02:12:45   to do it right when its new and assume that everybody's gone to see it in [TS]

02:12:49   theaters I almost feel like with this one it is fair like come on who's not [TS]

02:12:52   gonna go see this in theaters I think so yeah if it's that another week that's [TS]

02:13:03   going to be like a week and a half after it came out a few weeks after it came [TS]

02:13:06   out but plenty of time for the people care and the people who don't care [TS]

02:13:09   should just not listen or they could listen and they don't care either way [TS]

02:13:13   right I doubt there's gonna be people who want to listen to many outright on [TS]

02:13:17   the other thing I guess some two weeks later seems like that's a really small [TS]

02:13:22   I was gonna say it's it's pretty easy to avoid spoilers on a podcast because even [TS]

02:13:26   if you're using a podcast player that plays auto place the next episode once [TS]

02:13:30   you realize that we're talking about Star Wars it's pretty easy to pause it [TS]

02:13:33   and wait until you so that file it under probably we will talk about the force [TS]

02:13:39   awakens yeah [TS]

02:13:42   I thought you're going to do you do that I will not sports caster not [TS]