The Talk Show

115: ‘Turd on the Front Porch’, With Guest Ben Thompson


00:00:00   where to even start been yeah I i I was actually kind of optimistic we could [TS]

00:00:07   just avoid watch discussion [TS]

00:00:08   possibly I don't know about that article drop today but it is always like at this [TS]

00:00:14   point it's like I just want its it I just want to come out and then let's [TS]

00:00:18   talk about it but but no Apple via wired had to drop a second chart on the front [TS]

00:00:26   porch so we're recording on Thursday April 2nd shows private gonna come out [TS]

00:00:32   tomorrow Friday so we're still in this void between three weeks ago was this [TS]

00:00:42   event three weeks from now is when real people will start getting a lodge we're [TS]

00:00:49   still a full week away from the watch beam being in stores for people to look [TS]

00:00:53   at with their own eyes right like right now [TS]

00:00:57   99.9999% of people who are interested in Applewhite have not seen one in person [TS]

00:01:03   right by it I mean it's got a lot of nines on that I got only two events [TS]

00:01:12   right away or wearing them in public areas combined with employees but I'm [TS]

00:01:16   sure though and even people who grants it on employees with testing unit out in [TS]

00:01:21   the wild you can do that but I'm sure that if you say hey is an apple watch [TS]

00:01:26   that they'll say yes but then I'm sure that this Dave Gallagher standard reply [TS]

00:01:30   thats marlys but I can show it to you and said that when I let let people [TS]

00:01:35   examine it but it's interesting to me i've been talking about it last few [TS]

00:01:42   weeks is why in the world would Apple schedule things this way and I think [TS]

00:01:46   that the article today is part of why I think that they wanted they didn't want [TS]

00:01:52   the cycle like with a regular revision where it's event next week [TS]

00:01:58   reviews two days later go by right like this tend a cycle of most of their you [TS]

00:02:05   know 'cause flagship products [TS]

00:02:08   new iPhone come out and an event on a Monday or Tuesday then the reviews come [TS]

00:02:17   out a week later and then I gotta Wednesday I think usually usually to [TS]

00:02:24   start Wednesday and Fridays are always the day where people who have [TS]

00:02:27   pre-ordered will get theirs delivered and stores will have them and people can [TS]

00:02:31   line up to take it you know ten day cycle and a cycle the watch is way off [TS]

00:02:36   that and I can only guess that it's because they want to fill that space [TS]

00:02:40   between last months of hand and this month's release with a drumbeat steady [TS]

00:02:46   drumbeat of stuff promotional stuff you know [TS]

00:02:50   Good Morning America TV now this and wired so today I went out tell me what's [TS]

00:02:57   the article are talking about so wired drops article entitled iPhone killer the [TS]

00:03:03   secret history of the Apple watch and David Pierce wrote an article where he [TS]

00:03:12   clearly got clearly you know but that'll be our he talk talk to people at Apple [TS]

00:03:16   he spent a lot of time with with the human race designers days and I L and I [TS]

00:03:24   and end with any of these pieces in this is how the the the trouble with most of [TS]

00:03:35   them is you don't know why to what extent what is coming from Apple what's [TS]

00:03:40   coming from the spin that PR is giving him and then what if one of its coming [TS]

00:03:44   from from Pierce but the overarching theme of the article is that the the [TS]

00:03:52   real goal of the watch is to make you not need rifles so much and its focus on [TS]

00:03:57   their vacations an idea that will free you from your phone I would say I would [TS]

00:04:02   and I'm gonna suddenly tweak that and say that it's not so much that you don't [TS]

00:04:07   need your iPhone but that is because it's all coming from the phone at all [TS]

00:04:14   only works if you're in Bluetooth range of the phone [TS]

00:04:16   so it's more like a dashboard to your phone [TS]

00:04:23   well I think it's it's it's more like a typo like wake winch talked about in the [TS]

00:04:29   article you talk to him and Lynch the idea why do you replace your kids and [TS]

00:04:33   you can get a notification and you can grab that realize it's not that [TS]

00:04:37   important keep doing what you're doing you're not actually point out your [TS]

00:04:39   pocket in filling with it and all that sort of stuff which which is hardly a [TS]

00:04:43   new theses it's interesting that this seems to be the story that Apple's [TS]

00:04:49   choosing to tell but I mean frankly I think that all my life I think that they [TS]

00:04:55   said at the event that the watch will work on your home wi-fi network but I'm [TS]

00:05:01   not 100% sure on that I think the only but it's only again I can not 100% sure [TS]

00:05:09   but I'm 99% sure that all that means though is correcting me that is on your [TS]

00:05:15   your phone and your watch on same wi-fi network right even have bluetooth is out [TS]

00:05:19   of range right yes I do that yeah that's correct [TS]

00:05:23   your phone down Mike on the front next to the front door next year bad and you [TS]

00:05:27   can go around the house your watch will have full star full functionality right [TS]

00:05:32   and that the idea there and it sounds grade is that you can you know if you [TS]

00:05:36   need to charge your phone or whatever you can do it and you know go watch TV [TS]

00:05:39   two floors away from where it's charging and you're not going to be out of touch [TS]

00:05:43   from notifications are expecting right exactly that's right just as it's not [TS]

00:05:47   that that's a record it so yeah so I think I think you're probably you're [TS]

00:05:52   probably right and if you think about the other is you have to think of this [TS]

00:05:56   not in terms of the normal Apple watch but an apple new product launch and it [TS]

00:06:03   was the case with particular the iPhone balls the iPad that there was a big [TS]

00:06:09   break between the introduction and and the actual iPhone there was a second [TS]

00:06:15   event as well there was exactly exactly which was a good three weeks before [TS]

00:06:22   before the phone as well [TS]

00:06:25   so yes I think big picture you're probably right but I think this are [TS]

00:06:30   frankly I think this article is is a PR disaster I I would not go that far but I [TS]

00:06:37   don't think it was good yes the killer wine which is already all over Twitter [TS]

00:06:44   and stuff is is this idea that Apple decide they want to watch they think had [TS]

00:06:50   to figure out what would it was for which kind of confirms the worst [TS]

00:06:55   suspicions that people people had about the watch in a in a very very sort of [TS]

00:07:03   nine not subtle way very blunt blunt our way and and you of course I said you [TS]

00:07:10   don't know what the balance is between Apple PR and what Apple employees said [TS]

00:07:13   and and what what Pierce came up with but it sounds man where is that line I [TS]

00:07:23   can finally be funded it's pretty close to the top [TS]

00:07:27   maybe I don't have the Apple decided to make a watch and only then set out to [TS]

00:07:32   discover what it might be good for besides you know displaying the time [TS]

00:07:35   it's always terrible web pages that has like the pictures in the text on top of [TS]

00:07:40   it which like their attitudes goodbye drives me up the wall [TS]

00:07:43   it's you know what I read it on my phone and it was actually really good [TS]

00:07:48   is much better now looking at it and a desktop browser and its disaster for [TS]

00:07:54   reading my opinion yes there's there's you by the person that person is it big [TS]

00:07:58   at the top epidemic watching that such as cover to discover what I might be [TS]

00:08:01   good for [TS]

00:08:02   and then there's another whine about giant I've been dreaming about NAPA [TS]

00:08:06   watch just after CEO Steve Jobs death lunch orders 11 that it is and that is [TS]

00:08:12   basically like insinuating that I have a whore I began investing in poor Argie [TS]

00:08:20   studying how r in addition to Saturday Horacio session to session became a [TS]

00:08:24   product along the way the Apple team when it upon the watch reason to talk [TS]

00:08:28   came down to this did it and that they get the phone is really your wife which [TS]

00:08:31   I buy a definite presume is as pure as kind of summary of it but [TS]

00:08:35   like does america's is on Apple and that's orchestrated this and the promise [TS]

00:08:43   it's really feeding into all the worse or the most pessimistic kind of [TS]

00:08:48   conceptions about the watch the line is pierce's it's not a quote here is that [TS]

00:08:57   this is just pros from peers Apple decided to make a watch and only then [TS]

00:09:00   set out to discover what it might be good for fantasies besides you know [TS]

00:09:04   displaying the time which is weird things to put in parentheses because who [TS]

00:09:14   says that it has to that telling the time has to be a primary function right [TS]

00:09:21   now like what's funny is the the next sentence actually very much fits my [TS]

00:09:30   feeling about the watching and I i think i dont know what to do before the court [TS]

00:09:37   is there was a sense this is a quote there was a sense that technology was [TS]

00:09:41   going to move on to the bodies as hell and I runs Apple's in human rights group [TS]

00:09:45   we thought the natural place the place and historical significance was the rest [TS]

00:09:49   so I mean that's that's my whole thesis for the watches well it's the natural [TS]

00:09:56   progression of of technology keeps getting smaller and more personal and [TS]

00:10:02   where do you go from the phone like the the watch just seems the the obvious [TS]

00:10:07   place to go and I think the history of the culture shows that personal and [TS]

00:10:12   convenience trumps anything and that's what it actually is the reason to be to [TS]

00:10:18   be abolished the problem is it was in it says it's a it's a subtle point that [TS]

00:10:24   requires putting in kind of historical context of technology in the way things [TS]

00:10:29   way things move and the way things will go over time like what happened and [TS]

00:10:34   watch as cellular radios for example armed and either Apple didn't do a good [TS]

00:10:40   job of setting up that framing for pierce or [TS]

00:10:44   or he ignored it but reached by the fact the matter is actually think that's [TS]

00:10:49   exactly right by but if it doesn't sound good that's why it's a PR disaster I [TS]

00:10:57   have to go on the story before we talk about I think there is a lot to talk [TS]

00:11:02   about here with this feature story but I have to go matter first about the story [TS]

00:11:09   as opposed to the watch and the team in the decisions you know and get this out [TS]

00:11:12   of the way I feel like I have to clear the decks is that it's complaining about [TS]

00:11:19   the way that it is petty and catty but that's how we writers are and there's a [TS]

00:11:26   part of this where I think holy shit I could have done much better job if they [TS]

00:11:29   would have given me a full day with Lynch and died and let me talk to them [TS]

00:11:34   on the record [TS]

00:11:35   extensively I could have done a much better job and I that's that is that's [TS]

00:11:41   what I as I'm reading story that's what I thought and I got to the bottom and I [TS]

00:11:48   thought wow this they picked the wrong guy to give this access to like to me [TS]

00:11:52   this was very very lightweight article ever get one of those steak house in [TS]

00:11:58   Philly that has these great when you get the bread before your meal there really [TS]

00:12:03   big and it looks like we show I can every dead like muffin type bread thing [TS]

00:12:07   and then you open open open up and there's nothing in the inside right you [TS]

00:12:11   know it's taxing not a lot of bread it's like some kind of thing that pops up and [TS]

00:12:14   you know I got more like a pastry than bread that's what this article is that [TS]

00:12:19   to me is very empty part of it though here's the thing that i think is part of [TS]

00:12:25   his look at the timing of it came out today it looks like you know it's pretty [TS]

00:12:29   funny how long it is but it sounds to me like he got this access to two Lynch and [TS]

00:12:37   died sometime after the event last month but probably couple weeks ago yeah it [TS]

00:12:44   wasn't it wasn't yesterday [TS]

00:12:46   hundred-word yes so at least are at least a week ago I mean I think it would [TS]

00:12:50   be at least a week maybe more but something but anyway I [TS]

00:12:54   and who knows maybe he did but it certainly doesn't sound and and and [TS]

00:12:57   Pierce never says here's the thing [TS]

00:12:59   person ever says that he's had to watch that he himself is you know got access [TS]

00:13:05   to one and it doesn't read like a review in anyway so I'm guessing he didn't I'm [TS]

00:13:12   sure that they had you know you know the he got to see demos from the watches [TS]

00:13:17   that Lynch and died and others were wearing and that they had demo unit [TS]

00:13:20   similar to the ones that read the event etc but he didn't get he he doesn't have [TS]

00:13:24   first-hand experience of what it's like to use the watch so how do you rate this [TS]

00:13:28   story like so on the one hand I think I could have done this better but on the [TS]

00:13:31   other hand even if they had offered it to me I don't see how I could have [TS]

00:13:33   accepted it unless they gate let me use the watch for a week [TS]

00:13:37   first so that i'd have a frame of reference like how do you how do you [TS]

00:13:42   talk to the two people an end and maybe they're the only two sources is on [TS]

00:13:48   record but died is the user interface point person for the watch [TS]

00:13:53   are they safe for all of Apple's human interest group but led the you know the [TS]

00:13:57   team that did the watch interface and Lynch was in charge of the software team [TS]

00:14:01   that implement the designs I don't understand how you have the best [TS]

00:14:08   possible interview with those two unless you are familiar with the product that [TS]

00:14:16   they're talking about you know I understand why Apple might want an [TS]

00:14:21   article coming out before you know the pre orders to keep the hype level up but [TS]

00:14:26   it's to me a waste of time so on the one hand I wish that they'd pick me to write [TS]

00:14:30   it or ask me to write it but on the other hand is no way I would have [TS]

00:14:33   accepted unless I had first-hand experience with the watch does it feel [TS]

00:14:35   like I'm going in blind yeah well that's why and and you're right I'd say appear [TS]

00:14:40   disasters a little a little strong but it because who knows how much the [TS]

00:14:44   breakthrough but the this is why I i place that's one of the many reasons why [TS]

00:14:49   place I I think this article reflects poorly on apples apples communications [TS]

00:14:57   team and at the reasons is a few things one the reason just articulated rape if [TS]

00:15:02   white [TS]

00:15:03   wine maybe the guy at an automotive appears I agree reputation so you know I [TS]

00:15:09   would he be right he was put in a difficult position by having to write [TS]

00:15:13   about something that he you're right I agree it seems like he hasn't used to to [TS]

00:15:21   wait there's there's there's a certain part 2 messaging something and and [TS]

00:15:28   origin stories and things like that and and it might be true that Apple aside to [TS]

00:15:37   watch and then figured out but I would also bet that Apple decided to a phone [TS]

00:15:42   and then figure out what it would do as well yeah there's like what the thing [TS]

00:15:47   about this thing that when switching onto is if you actually think about it [TS]

00:15:52   it's not really that controversial like that that's how at all products like [TS]

00:15:58   this like price like this are developed by the you decide how you know so tell [TS]

00:16:04   the story the way toward the phone story was we all hated our phones so we wanted [TS]

00:16:08   to something better right and that that was the one everyone remembers that I [TS]

00:16:13   remembers you know Steve Jobs saying that at the keynote and that that line [TS]

00:16:19   like that there's no line like that about about the watch and now the line [TS]

00:16:27   that is that is especially with this article can occur to become cemented [TS]

00:16:33   projected on the tech press is that Apple want to make watch yeah I think I [TS]

00:16:37   am I am in complete agreement you I don't think it's damning and I don't [TS]

00:16:41   think it's whatever the opposite what's the opposite of damning I don't think [TS]

00:16:46   it's anything it's nothing because I think I think you're right all products [TS]

00:16:49   are like that like okay let's try to make a phone and see if it comes out or [TS]

00:16:53   really like the way Apple did it was but try to make a phone and they made two [TS]

00:16:57   phones right there was the fidel team working on the iPod iOS version of the [TS]

00:17:03   phone and there was the borstal bertrand certainly it [TS]

00:17:11   side trying to do the weekend seriously weaken stripped-down always tend to [TS]

00:17:15   something that will run on this [TS]

00:17:16   trust us side and then it was like ok this is the one with the phone is the [TS]

00:17:23   phone had a reason to exist in that was that it was a phone and what's funny [TS]

00:17:29   about the line that we're talking about is like everyone pretends like I don't [TS]

00:17:34   know why it's in print this is your right like the watch does have reason to [TS]

00:17:38   watch it does the time and now admittedly this is a this is less [TS]

00:17:46   compelling because everyone needs a phone but over the last several years [TS]

00:17:50   more and more people to say they don't need watch it's so I appreciate that [TS]

00:17:55   there is more of a need to to you know to create value outside and etiquette [TS]

00:18:05   people would never wanna watch to start wearing it start wearing one that said [TS]

00:18:09   it's not like there were like this is Google glass for example where there was [TS]

00:18:15   no there was no preexisting kind of thing for it to fit into there is no [TS]

00:18:21   framing for to fit into it was a it was a completely new the world thing whereas [TS]

00:18:27   the phone was a phone but more and this is a watch but more and I think this is [TS]

00:18:32   why Apple in this is this is almost where Apple kind of got it but not quite [TS]

00:18:36   that's why I like Tim Cook the first things that all the phone it keeps super [TS]

00:18:39   accurate time which is kinda weird but I think that was the idea was establishing [TS]

00:18:44   that this is a watch first and foremost that's why it's called up a watchdog [TS]

00:18:47   called Smart Watch Union all all that sort of stuff and I think you you see [TS]

00:18:52   that in your there there is like all the imaging about the imaging about like the [TS]

00:18:57   watch faces and there's been what the mickey mouse thing in the air and and [TS]

00:19:00   and the sort of thing in like so I think a ball was going for that but there's [TS]

00:19:08   just there's a lack of clarity I think in in their messaging and and frankly I [TS]

00:19:16   mean I think Apple the company is doing very well but I think this is a [TS]

00:19:19   narrative struggle with you know kind of consistently since then Steve Jobs [TS]

00:19:24   passed away this is if you think about this the one area that he wrote in my [TS]

00:19:28   car [TS]

00:19:28   message but he he worked over everything in approved everything when it came to [TS]

00:19:33   messaging and the fear about micromanaging is what happens in the [TS]

00:19:37   Metra Metra goes away to the people that are left have the skills and ability to [TS]

00:19:42   come up with something wrong or they just people who implement it and I [TS]

00:19:46   haven't seen Super compelling evidence quite frankly last over years of rhythm [TS]

00:19:50   of the several times that Apple really has their their messaging muscle fully [TS]

00:19:56   developed hold that thought I want to come back to that exact point that want [TS]

00:20:03   to go back to my hands in your hands ok cuz I'm really bad at all the thought [TS]

00:20:08   that's another matter point that I want to make but to go back to I admitted [TS]

00:20:19   pettiness complaining about the article and professional jealousy I'm also I [TS]

00:20:25   don't do that all the time I certainly like the team partner profile Jony ive [TS]

00:20:28   in the new yorker from a few I guess it's a few months ago [TS]

00:20:32   yeah February 23rd was fantastic absolutely tremendous apiece for the [TS]

00:20:38   ages that I don't even know that I haven't an eagle about it I guess my [TS]

00:20:43   only when he quoted me that he didn't quote the better part of the line so I [TS]

00:20:50   will get to your quotes in this article I'm not yet exactly I'm not above you [TS]

00:20:55   know i i dont every single time somebody gets you know access to Apple I'm not I [TS]

00:21:00   don't think wow that should have been me this is in part a story for the new [TS]

00:21:02   yorker fantastic also I've been endless in my prays for the new becoming Steve [TS]

00:21:10   Jobs book which i think is fantastic and I recommend everybody and I think it's [TS]

00:21:16   the perfect but I think it is excellent [TS]

00:21:18   truly excellent and a great compliment everything that's especially as a [TS]

00:21:22   compliment to all the other books have been written [TS]

00:21:24   about jobs and alcohol in you know last few decades so I always complain about [TS]

00:21:30   people who write about Apple you know so I can constantly saying I could have [TS]

00:21:35   done a better I could have done better but just think in this case a lot of [TS]

00:21:39   people couldn't this better [TS]

00:21:41   yeah but I mean it in the day like I mean I think that the fault for the [TS]

00:21:50   ideas in book book falls on jobs [TS]

00:21:52   yeah I know both sides both were mean yes it does but but like you know 11 can [TS]

00:22:01   suspect that you know widened jobs pick someone that knew him well in new Apple [TS]

00:22:05   well new technology well and there's a there's a great story in becoming Steve [TS]

00:22:09   Jobs that pressure under tells of when he was at the wall street journal one [TS]

00:22:15   and this is again this is before he was before he met jobs the first time in a [TS]

00:22:21   while he was nervous meeting in the first time in the eighties was that he [TS]

00:22:25   had a colleague at the wall street journal who got an interview with jobs I [TS]

00:22:29   think while he was still an apple and he was like jobs is interrupted the [TS]

00:22:32   interview and said something to the effect of do you understand anything at [TS]

00:22:36   all about this fucking stuff that we're talking about you understand any of this [TS]

00:22:39   just called him out on it you know and a guy probably did and I kind of feel like [TS]

00:22:44   if you know I think jobs public really good judge of whether people understood [TS]

00:22:50   the stuff that they were talking about I think it was really hard to bullshit [TS]

00:22:54   that I think he had to know that isaacson just didn't know what the fuck [TS]

00:22:58   he was talking about with his work which I agree the buck stops with jobs in a [TS]

00:23:04   letter something here i mean like did this is like I don't think I don't think [TS]

00:23:10   this article [TS]

00:23:11   accomplish what Apple wanted it to accomplish and and I i think the buck [TS]

00:23:17   stops with Apple so let's think back so this idea hey let's make a watch and we [TS]

00:23:23   don't know what is going to do but lets you set out to do it and you said a lot [TS]

00:23:27   of people latching onto this as proof that it's the whole thing was doomed [TS]

00:23:31   in a folly that's it i think thats exactly what they do with everything the [TS]

00:23:35   key is to go back to that line from a year or two ago that thousand nose for [TS]

00:23:39   every yes right to a thousand crazy things and the the the the trick isn't [TS]

00:23:47   in coming up with the brilliant idea from the outset right that's that is [TS]

00:23:52   that's death if you only if you just sit there and wait at the idea stage until [TS]

00:23:58   you have a perfect idea and it's all comes together and then go that's death [TS]

00:24:03   that's the way you make crap products you have to get your hands dirty [TS]

00:24:08   get the clay and start molding the clay and start making things and try it and [TS]

00:24:15   look at it and think is this anything and if you think it's something keep [TS]

00:24:18   going and then even after you've spent a lot of time on it eventually you've got [TS]

00:24:22   to say it was worth it but no we're not going to do this and then you are you [TS]

00:24:28   abandoning their pop off the right post like a bunch of like old old stuff that [TS]

00:24:35   he had today any any posted this amazing Kahnawake wake statue type thing that [TS]

00:24:42   will like a a concept case for Longhorn it was like these three CDs and a glass [TS]

00:24:50   case and it was way over done in an hour there but I is funny that you mention [TS]

00:24:54   that because that was like the classic case of pre-poll [TS]

00:24:57   pre-planning like micro we gotta do all the stuff going to review the file [TS]

00:25:00   system we're gonna redo a call like use racial databases like all this crazy [TS]

00:25:05   stuff and they got so focused on the you like this is the idea now regular make [TS]

00:25:10   it happen that they spun themselves into the ground and took two years to recover [TS]

00:25:16   from that and I think you're exactly right like you you you don't start with [TS]

00:25:20   an idea you start with a ton of ideas and whittle down so it's a three-year [TS]

00:25:25   project and the the idea of you know the people are latching onto the idea that [TS]

00:25:30   the mistake was made back on day one when they said let's make a watch [TS]

00:25:34   figure out what what it could be good for know if if the watch is bad product [TS]

00:25:39   if it's if this is you know whether or not bad even if it's just not great [TS]

00:25:45   the problem wasn't on day one the problem was Sunday you know 800 700 [TS]

00:25:51   somewhere around there maybe even nine hundred when they didn't just say you [TS]

00:25:55   know what [TS]

00:25:55   no this isn't good enough it's not at the beginning stages at the know it at [TS]

00:26:00   that end date it having the discipline of you know what they say killing your [TS]

00:26:05   babies and even though you've invested two years in this you may have to [TS]

00:26:09   backtrack here and there is some of that in here there's some of that in this in [TS]

00:26:13   the wired story where they say that they've had to rebuild some of the [TS]

00:26:16   software from scratch three times I thought they'd actually had the same [TS]

00:26:23   interface as the bubble time the a yes I that was one of the things I called out [TS]

00:26:29   actually called that out here is the quote an early version of the software [TS]

00:26:34   served you information in the timeline flowing chronologically from top to [TS]

00:26:38   bottom that idea never made it off campus the ideas that will ship on April [TS]

00:26:42   24 are focused on streamlining the time it takes a user to figure out whether [TS]

00:26:47   something is worth paying attention to [TS]

00:26:48   so yeah it does sound which is again that drove me nuts though that pierced [TS]

00:26:53   didn't delve more into that into their idea if they told him about that idea I [TS]

00:26:57   would have loved to hear more about it and see just how much it was like the [TS]

00:27:01   pebble 2.0 interface that's that's the public to point out is what what is up [TS]

00:27:07   is old and down is up his old the middle is now and down is the future right and [TS]

00:27:14   I thin sounds like the criticism is an hour like reading into an article that I [TS]

00:27:18   was reading into whatever but in ways that that everything the same level [TS]

00:27:23   priority and and so now you're just going through some that may be important [TS]

00:27:28   stuff that may not be and indeed situation here it is I think that Apple [TS]

00:27:35   redid the interface 22 more surface things in the moment in that neither of [TS]

00:27:41   them go away or have them or or you know have a more immediate and more [TS]

00:27:45   more reaction you know reactive almond eyes actually an interesting guy don't [TS]

00:27:51   know him personally but he's he's out and he's I knew of him and he's even [TS]

00:27:58   know his name probably isn't that well-known is somewhat controversial if [TS]

00:28:03   you consider the whole you no change in you I direction from Iowa seven in [TS]

00:28:09   Yosemite to be controversial because he led that work in a working directly [TS]

00:28:14   under I've and it's the fact that his background is graphic design I was I was [TS]

00:28:23   thinking the exact same thing and he came into a ball [TS]

00:28:25   insurers Product Marketing Group and did things like the packaging boxes and [TS]

00:28:32   stuff like that and then moved to take a leadership role in user interface design [TS]

00:28:39   and the like I said I would call controversy and people inside Apple I [TS]

00:28:45   know you know there are people who strongly disagree with the direction I [TS]

00:28:50   think that that is the criticism of the Iowa 7 aesthetics that looks fantastic [TS]

00:28:54   but there's a difference between looking good in a screenshot and and actually [TS]

00:28:59   being something that you interact with it and I think all the criticism is [TS]

00:29:03   about like the affordances wake how do you know what to do what to press and [TS]

00:29:08   that's something that I do think is lacking in it is still lacking and even [TS]

00:29:13   though no question I was there was a look a million times better then then [TS]

00:29:17   the previous version it is harder to use and you know it's inside the company [TS]

00:29:26   like eight or wise there's been turned over like where there are and again I [TS]

00:29:34   don't think it's complete it's not like all of the old human interface team was [TS]

00:29:39   let go [TS]

00:29:41   forced out and they're all you know have new jobs elsewhere in a whole new team [TS]

00:29:45   came in but in some ways it you know you know some of those people are still [TS]

00:29:51   there and you know it wasn't a complete reshuffling but it was definitely [TS]

00:29:57   somewhat of a recent phone right now I've heard the same thing you know that [TS]

00:30:03   end and there's definitely some you know user interface people from the other [TS]

00:30:08   side the old school people who have left Apple and Google and other places now in [TS]

00:30:13   in the valley and I is sort of Africa the other name I know there's another [TS]

00:30:19   person came from product marketing [TS]

00:30:21   you know and there is some resentment from the people who don't think who [TS]

00:30:26   don't agree with the direction just as an aside [TS]

00:30:34   a break and then we'll come back to that point that I told you to keeping your [TS]

00:30:36   hands all right it was my fingers but a reminder I disregarded alright let's [TS]

00:30:42   take a break and let's thank first sponsor our good friends at fracture you [TS]

00:30:50   guys know fracture I talk about him they've been sponsoring the show all [TS]

00:30:53   your along great great service they print photographs directly on glass you [TS]

00:31:02   take pictures with your iPhone any camera one you got them they're all on [TS]

00:31:06   your computer right in the old days all your pictures Randall is easy you could [TS]

00:31:12   just buy a frame it put the best ones we've got everything digital now it's [TS]

00:31:16   great to print your photos it really is your best photos you put them up you get [TS]

00:31:22   some pictures of your kids family and stuff like that you put it up on the [TS]

00:31:25   wall and then all of a sudden you look at him and my god everybody's older [TS]

00:31:30   we've got a picture I just saw it the other day was from my wife's and my [TS]

00:31:34   wedding and goes along time ago that one of her cousins was just a tiny little [TS]

00:31:41   girl like pre-school aged and now she's like a senior in high school and I take [TS]

00:31:45   holy shit look at her what a great reminder pretty photos I can't I can't [TS]

00:31:50   recommend it enough while fracture is great way to do it [TS]

00:31:54   you send them your photos they print them directly on glass not a piece of [TS]

00:31:58   paper stuck to class I don't even know how they do it sometime proprietary [TS]

00:32:02   secret sauce right on the glass just like I like the way that like I've [TS]

00:32:08   hunter laminated this the pixels are laminated to the glass it's a fantastic [TS]

00:32:12   effect really looks great and it lets you mountain in these amazingly minimal [TS]

00:32:20   ways because there's no reason you don't need to have a border around the frame [TS]

00:32:23   because there's no piece of paper that secured to the glass to you can get [TS]

00:32:28   these amazing edge-to-edge just just the glass just the picture just the picture [TS]

00:32:32   just sitting there really really amazing stuff great prices all sorts of sizes [TS]

00:32:38   from really small stuff you can put on your desk to [TS]

00:32:42   really big 12 23 by 23 square I forget how big the big rectangle ones something [TS]

00:32:48   28 inches 27 it is really really big and he made about that too is it ties into I [TS]

00:32:56   think Apple's campaign with the iPhone 6 camera the shot with iPhone with just [TS]

00:33:01   how good i phone pictures look blown up big we know that the iPhone has a good [TS]

00:33:08   camera but it's like you still think well at the phone cameras he can pull it [TS]

00:33:10   up real big take actually you can't there's plenty of pictures you can go to [TS]

00:33:14   you know to 27 inches with photos taken with your iPhone and they look amazing I [TS]

00:33:18   mean some of the ones in the Apple Store they've got blown up to like six feet [TS]

00:33:21   and they look great so where do you go to find out more go to fracture me.com [TS]

00:33:30   and you can sign up as area code I think there's a code but I forget it I'll tell [TS]

00:33:40   you later but the current go there go to fracture meed.com and get some pictures [TS]

00:33:47   and by the director was the thought that I had to hold your hands [TS]

00:33:58   the idea is there are apples messaging has hasn't been as crisp as it as it [TS]

00:34:05   once was and you know why I always hated dip into the you know since Steve Jobs [TS]

00:34:14   sort of narrative but I think this is the one area where Apple has does does [TS]

00:34:19   miss him and I think the reason they miss him is is in part because he was so [TS]

00:34:23   deeply involved in in the messaging [TS]

00:34:27   approving everything just like you cannot overstate how involved you was [TS]

00:34:33   like more than than product design and and the problem with that is that the [TS]

00:34:40   danger of having a micromanager is well the mega-mergers they're resuming his [TS]

00:34:44   brilliant as jobs obviously was particularly when it came to messaging [TS]

00:34:48   you'll get great work but once the micro managers gone everyone underneath the [TS]

00:34:53   micro manager has just been in pure execution rules I just gotta just got a [TS]

00:34:58   message from headquarters headquarters says the code for fracture its daring [TS]

00:35:02   fireball all one word on when you use that you save 15% so that's good let [TS]

00:35:06   them fix it in the car with this will stick in your head because it came amid [TS]

00:35:10   conversation daring [TS]

00:35:11   use that code when you buy your fracturing you save 15% price yes and [TS]

00:35:18   here's the big difference it's another meta angle on this story is in the job [TS]

00:35:22   there it wasn't just that he controlled the messaging from behind the scenes and [TS]

00:35:25   it was a strategy of truly severe limited access to any and all Apple [TS]

00:35:35   employees including Jobs himself up and that's one of the things that really [TS]

00:35:40   sticks out to me reading becoming steve Jobs was just how much more accessible [TS]

00:35:47   he was personally right up through coming back to Apple in 1997 that it [TS]

00:35:59   really was a and even maybe even in those first two years you know the first [TS]

00:36:05   few years there and Apple he was still a lot more accessible to again not any and [TS]

00:36:11   all not any you know george and charlie reporter from anybody but with [TS]

00:36:15   hand-picked reporters from you know big-name publications like the Wall [TS]

00:36:20   Street Journal and fortune and etc he was pretty accessible and then that that [TS]

00:36:25   got shut down really and nobody they nobody got to talk to Apple executives [TS]

00:36:29   and you certainly didn't see this it is clearly a huge strategic change in terms [TS]

00:36:38   of just how many people they've made accessible to the press in the run-up to [TS]

00:36:42   the watch huge profile Jony ive in the new yorker which was clearly months in [TS]

00:36:48   the making I mean maybe the better part of 2014 [TS]

00:36:52   you know with a series of interviews and trips to California [TS]

00:36:56   enormous access that was granted in partner and the Financial Times had a [TS]

00:37:03   you know clearly not as detailed as lengthy as the in Parker but pretty [TS]

00:37:07   pretty good interview with johnnie I've on the record there is a Tim Cook [TS]

00:37:12   profile by Adam Lashinsky in voir IRIN I i've because they swear to God by the [TS]

00:37:25   way my brain works it's like a hashing algorithm and because they both start [TS]

00:37:28   with F O R and their business publications I always confuse fortune is [TS]

00:37:32   for its fortune occasion that was last week and I'm I think I'm getting some [TS]

00:37:41   after the event last year there was a bunch to like he was in the V Bloomberg [TS]

00:37:45   Businessweek with that you know crazy cover up but it's interesting I've [TS]

00:37:49   actually i've i've actually going back is not perfect I'm doing I'm searching [TS]

00:37:53   in Google for the time period up to the the actual watch of the watch or the [TS]

00:37:59   phone sorry back 2007 and you would think that any sort of article like this [TS]

00:38:04   sort of wire Oracle be somewhere at the top and I don't i cant find anything [TS]

00:38:07   like it they can find all the reviews that dropped you know week before I [TS]

00:38:12   don't recall and I can I think I would have I don't recall ever hearing about [TS]

00:38:16   like who designed the interface for the iPhone and I don't recall I mean we knew [TS]

00:38:23   Jony ive and you know in the job 0 the best that you God outside Apple was just [TS]

00:38:31   public reckoning recognition of who did what johnnie I would I give a speech [TS]

00:38:36   like once a year like using somewhere in Great Britain in like that that that was [TS]

00:38:40   that was about it and he was already talking in the videos you know I think I [TS]

00:38:46   think i've i've was already in either being interviewed I wasn't really not [TS]

00:38:51   like now he narrates them but then it was like he was doing you know the [TS]

00:38:54   talking head with the white background [TS]

00:38:56   you know talking about working on the meticulous design and you know dropping [TS]

00:39:00   all those excellently impeccably pronounced adjectives you know we always [TS]

00:39:06   know who chiller is because shoulders on stage [TS]

00:39:08   but you just never got behind us you know there's never any kind of access [TS]

00:39:14   like this like talking them to people who designed you know the look and feel [TS]

00:39:18   of the buttons for Iowa's one and stuff like that right it's all you got was the [TS]

00:39:24   story that Jobs presented on state Rep we are so I think that there's a couple [TS]

00:39:28   things are so one it was super tightly controlled which meant means like you [TS]

00:39:35   you're not getting a story like this that I think that I suspected it came [TS]

00:39:40   out with a spin that a ball probably probably wouldn't probably wouldn't [TS]

00:39:46   prefer so that's kind of part one like you you know this is kind of risk of [TS]

00:39:52   being open but part two is even the people who are talking don't don't have [TS]

00:39:57   a Christmas in in in in what they're saying end and I know whether the [TS]

00:40:03   narrative for skeptics in particular is that you know why does exist actually [TS]

00:40:09   think this is the heart of messaging actually think what they're saying this [TS]

00:40:13   article is exactly right [TS]

00:40:15   wake you I i don't believe that [TS]

00:40:20   advancement in technology and computing happens because like great people force [TS]

00:40:25   it into be like I think that there is there's kind of in and out like an [TS]

00:40:30   ongoing march forward progress of technology and the great companies the [TS]

00:40:35   great visionaries like a Steve Jobs their skill is not in like birthing [TS]

00:40:41   things per se it it's in seeing where the where the wave is going and catching [TS]

00:40:46   it and being on the cutting edge of it and and that's why you see again again [TS]

00:40:51   like there's all these examples of history of like stuff being invented by [TS]

00:40:54   multiple people at about the same time [TS]

00:40:56   rate is because like it's is the time for something in I get this is my flight [TS]

00:41:01   with a very responses to decorate like stated this and I think it's the time in [TS]

00:41:06   the end [TS]

00:41:07   exactly what he said the next place is the watched the problem is that the [TS]

00:41:12   press that that's not how the press write stories the presses in right about [TS]

00:41:15   like the big picture contextual place in technology for the device that's why I [TS]

00:41:20   have a job that's what i read [TS]

00:41:21   but I write to limited audience what press want they want the hero when they [TS]

00:41:27   want the the the the opening shot story in case and that's why you had steve [TS]

00:41:32   Jobs the iPhone being like we are here in our phones so we made a better one [TS]

00:41:36   adapts that you can watch on to that and that's not here and it's it's it's [TS]

00:41:41   consistently has it been [TS]

00:41:42   thank you for some of the iPad I i think one of the most interesting things that [TS]

00:41:48   come out of this garage of the finest you know access and quote from Apple's [TS]

00:41:55   leaders design leaders I thought one of the most interesting was the I've quoted [TS]

00:41:59   in the Financial Times article which overall wasn't a great article isn't [TS]

00:42:03   really you know but this line was great [TS]

00:42:06   which isn't surprising the more you know I've said exactly what you're saying but [TS]

00:42:10   it was great to hear from we approach the phone with from this perspective [TS]

00:42:14   that we all hated the phones that we had and we're approaching the watch as that [TS]

00:42:22   we love watches we love the traditional world of mechanical watches and we're [TS]

00:42:26   we're approaching a watch with reverence for what's come before us and that is a [TS]

00:42:31   totally different approach in its informed everything we did and it's [TS]

00:42:35   fascinating to hear that right nothing no kind of trash talk at all about the [TS]

00:42:39   traditional world of of watches yeah it is interesting but then this article [TS]

00:42:45   doesn't go into that at all it just says you know Jony ive took a deep dive into [TS]

00:42:50   her ology I think that was even a mistake from what I understand it wasn't [TS]

00:42:54   just the Jony ive when an ad like I'm gonna go become a huge watch expert [TS]

00:43:00   everybody who worked on the watch like they brought in for a logical experts [TS]

00:43:04   and it wasn't just Jony ive who studied up on it it was everybody who was [TS]

00:43:09   involved like the whole team more or less became world-class experts in in [TS]

00:43:15   the history and you know everything you want to know to be a serious you know [TS]

00:43:20   watch expert yeah and I don't think that comes across in the story [TS]

00:43:28   I do I do think in terms of it being outside Apple's control I can't help but [TS]

00:43:31   think that Katie cotton some of his you know wherever she is this morning is [TS]

00:43:36   enjoying your morning cup of tea or coffee or whatever she drinks and is [TS]

00:43:41   just shaking her head I was under the impression she started out with Scott's [TS]

00:43:45   first thing but I don't think so now I i know i think i i agree in like there in [TS]

00:43:55   the AM people got people people obviously especially journalists you [TS]

00:44:02   know very much disliked that era of alcohol from a PR perspective in [TS]

00:44:06   disliked begotten by large but the fact the matter is coupled in Apple's message [TS]

00:44:15   always got across because there's nothing else to write about the only [TS]

00:44:20   thing they went out was exactly what they wanted to add out and again I like [TS]

00:44:24   I said wake the it's almost like the problem here the problem this article is [TS]

00:44:28   in there too honest and and I appreciate that in you appreciate that but honest [TS]

00:44:38   unfiltered honesty in this is this is maybe we can lead into your both the [TS]

00:44:42   remark here [TS]

00:44:43   unfiltered honesty without doesn't it doesn't [TS]

00:44:49   is not a sound bite you like and it doesn't it doesn't spread in in open to [TS]

00:44:57   all kinds of interpretations and that's you kind of see that happening any in [TS]

00:45:04   the hands of someone like you in Parker who who [TS]

00:45:08   member took seventeen thousand words to do it like what was it about the link [TS]

00:45:12   that matter to lose all the context that was put around it right when you put [TS]

00:45:16   context around honesty then it's so fulfilling its like you read that [TS]

00:45:22   article they eating a steak dinner or something but when you when you have [TS]

00:45:26   honesty by without deep understanding or contacts it it will open to [TS]

00:45:34   interpretation which I think happened here in so you had his interpretation on [TS]

00:45:38   top of it [TS]

00:45:39   end to you get kind of unintended sound bites and I think that's what happened [TS]

00:45:45   to the sound bite as Apple to Melbourne for the watch will again I think you [TS]

00:45:49   look at the big picture a watch is the net natural thing to do next and it does [TS]

00:45:53   tell time and I honestly think that that's the better way to approach it is [TS]

00:45:57   okay let's approach it with an empty mind and anything and everything goes as [TS]

00:46:01   opposed to I'm telling you the worst way to design anything is to have the whole [TS]

00:46:05   thing in your head and then go make the thing in your head [TS]

00:46:08   without constant iteration in revisiting and viewing it as it becomes relearn [TS]

00:46:14   relearn trailer it's it's to me one of the secrets of Apple's success in last [TS]

00:46:18   geez what we've been up to now twenty twenty years fifteen years what the hell [TS]

00:46:25   how long has it been well the iPad iPod with a dozen eighteen years since ninety [TS]

00:46:31   so is is that they don't you know it's not like somebody goes off with a [TS]

00:46:40   notebook sketches that they and draws it all up and then somebody goes and makes [TS]

00:46:44   it which is i think a lot of Technology get to me has been made ever since the [TS]

00:46:48   outset of Technology told me I mean I think people have this idea that Apple [TS]

00:46:52   as grand vision I mean like one thing that I got a chance to really dig deep [TS]

00:46:59   into when i when I was at Apple was was working out the Titans game about ten [TS]

00:47:05   basic and what people forget about this story unraveled you before i buy you [TS]

00:47:11   remember in 2000 Apple had a big event where they're like you know the you know [TS]

00:47:16   what made the Mac the first time around it was desktop publishing well we think [TS]

00:47:21   we know what's next and it's gonna be movies and movie and it was the iMac and [TS]

00:47:27   we are gonna like you can make home movies and this is what we're gonna be [TS]

00:47:31   all about and then like nine months later or nine months later someone [TS]

00:47:36   absurdly short amount of time [TS]

00:47:38   Steve Jobs on stage and is a completely different vision I could not be more [TS]

00:47:42   different and that was the digital hubs beat so we think the max gonna be a [TS]

00:47:45   digital for all these devices yeah and I think he almost admitted that it was a [TS]

00:47:50   mistake right because it also coincided with [TS]

00:47:52   with making CD you are drive standard because part of the problem with the [TS]

00:48:00   prior max was that you couldn't make music discs right don't know if I mean [TS]

00:48:05   they implicitly admitted it was a problem I C 2012 stand up and say we we [TS]

00:48:10   we we screw this up but it was his way of doing it could save doing it without [TS]

00:48:17   saying you know he was I would say one of his greatest gifts was his way of [TS]

00:48:21   backtracking even publicly and somehow making it not look like an admission of [TS]

00:48:27   error rate know exactly when you hear this but you have this is what could [TS]

00:48:31   always praised by jobs how you change his mind all the time like to think that [TS]

00:48:35   Apple has a master plan and just execute it is is not just on mr Chen Applebees [TS]

00:48:42   to misunderstand how progress happens I mean again this is my kind of big [TS]

00:48:47   metathesis like you figure out what's next you don't make what's next and as I [TS]

00:48:53   and you have to look at what people are doing in the end that area talking about [TS]

00:48:57   it it was a it was a dividing point between Mac and PC users not just in [TS]

00:49:03   terms of any kind of political affiliation or tribal affiliation [TS]

00:49:07   whatever you want to call it but just in terms of what real people were really [TS]

00:49:12   doing and on the PC side what people were doing was downloading a lot of [TS]

00:49:16   music from Napster and and then burning CDs you know 10 11 12 13 songs whatever [TS]

00:49:23   you could fit are you can fit more I guess you could say with mp3 you could [TS]

00:49:27   if you had an mp3 player that could read them off CD but anyway people were [TS]

00:49:30   burning CDs with music whether it was to play them as regular CDs or to play them [TS]

00:49:35   in mp3 players I could read mp3's of CDs people were doing it and Mac users [TS]

00:49:40   weren't because they didn't see your drugs [TS]

00:49:42   yeah my favorite actually one of my favorite jobs quotes comes around this [TS]

00:49:48   time it's extremely hard to find you have to read archive of all try to find [TS]

00:49:53   it in a bit but basically he says like I thought we missed it I thought I screwed [TS]

00:49:59   up it was like the most like stark admission of white jobs they like [TS]

00:50:03   admitting that he thought that he told [TS]

00:50:06   I blew it is they thought they were too late father to wait to music they made [TS]

00:50:09   the wrong focus amid the wrong back by folks in movies and and what is amazing [TS]

00:50:14   is i mean the company internally in that in that year or nine much oil was [TS]

00:50:19   completely transformed a dime movie guys right top of the heap right within like [TS]

00:50:23   a matter of weeks like completely organized complete you prioritize like [TS]

00:50:28   iTunes was gonna be they went out and bought some jam and and turned around [TS]

00:50:33   and you think about Indianapolis rotational they do so for years and [TS]

00:50:37   stuff like that I i do believe that they do that today but they delivered iTunes [TS]

00:50:42   and these new Macs in like nine months and then they hadn't even considered [TS]

00:50:47   really the iPod yet a month later was when rubenstein went to Japan and visit [TS]

00:50:54   to see but he was like oh we have this little hard drive we don't know what to [TS]

00:50:57   do with it I know we could do with that and that was in February in the watch [TS]

00:51:01   the Avalanche the iPod in September to the iPod was conceived designed all that [TS]

00:51:07   in in six months and in a dozen one right in 2001 and and like that's that's [TS]

00:51:15   not likes starting starting with a breakthrough from Toshiba story now that [TS]

00:51:23   the basic idea there was that standard laptop hard drives were 2.5 inches and [TS]

00:51:28   Toshiba came up with a 1.8 inch hard drive and none of the PC makers wanted [TS]

00:51:33   it because it the 2.5 inch size was fine because the key the laptops even the [TS]

00:51:42   smallest one had at least the minimum size for the laptop with a keyboard and [TS]

00:51:46   with a reasonable screen that it didn't matter there was nothing to do with this [TS]

00:51:51   space-saving the space-saving made no difference to the design of laptops and [TS]

00:51:56   laptops were the only devices these other companies had that needed to [TS]

00:51:59   martyrs right you had to go to something as radically smaller as like the first [TS]

00:52:05   iPods to make to say here's where you need something that here's where 2.5 [TS]

00:52:10   inches to two pick you need it and that nobody else had a device in mind that [TS]

00:52:16   needed and no it's what is a wonderful example of how your particular [TS]

00:52:20   technology like and this is why this is this is wide technological means [TS]

00:52:25   generally even though I like you know you you want people that have a wide [TS]

00:52:31   range of experiences in in the end we're watching Forrest up maybe that's why the [TS]

00:52:35   technological background is valued because at the end of the day wake what [TS]

00:52:41   is possible and what is it is is governed by the technology and that's a [TS]

00:52:46   big part of like why the iPhone succeeded [TS]

00:52:48   whereas under the new didn't like the technology just wasn't there was the [TS]

00:52:52   iPhone the iPhone was on the edge of possible way do the processor was just [TS]

00:52:56   barely fast nothing to do all kinda tricks to you know to to make it [TS]

00:53:00   responsive like they did you know the touch screen technology was was just [TS]

00:53:05   getting cheap enough and and that's like it's it's understanding that [TS]

00:53:10   intersection having the patience to watch something when it's ready and [TS]

00:53:14   quite frankly if you want to if you want to criticize the watch for anything in [TS]

00:53:18   first of all it's just waiting to actually comes out you can use it but to [TS]

00:53:22   that never stopped but to wake it I think if you look at the arc of personal [TS]

00:53:29   technology of course the next things in Bea the risk that's my opinion but I [TS]

00:53:34   think it's pretty clear the question is when is the right time and the right [TS]

00:53:38   time will be governed by the available technology and end and so the criticism [TS]

00:53:44   of the watch if it ends observing criticism is not that it shouldn't exist [TS]

00:53:48   if that shouldn't exist now ordered exists whether yeah and I would say [TS]

00:53:54   great example of that is the new and you know there was a great product I really [TS]

00:54:04   really appreciated the OS I I thought it was a great design I think you can [TS]

00:54:08   quibble about some of the details I think that the way that they made some [TS]

00:54:13   of the apps blasted you know the way the the bottom of the screen there were [TS]

00:54:16   certain apps that had a permanent location there and you couldn't change [TS]

00:54:20   them was questionable but it was also fixable they could go forward in a new [TS]

00:54:24   way [TS]

00:54:24   but to me though I have talked to i i talked about this a long time ago but to [TS]

00:54:28   me the fundamental failure of the Newton was that it came too soon [TS]

00:54:34   insofar as there was no wireless networking at the time and any device of [TS]

00:54:39   that basic just form factor needed wireless networking and I know palm had [TS]

00:54:45   some success with palm pilots in that era before and there wasn't why fired so [TS]

00:54:50   you learn that working at the time but I think if you look at Palm success with [TS]

00:54:53   the Palm Pilot and how many they sold it was it was a hit among us right I had 14 [TS]

00:55:02   years and loved it but there was no way like my parents are gonna get one of my [TS]

00:55:08   sister my sister would never get one you know normal people weren't gonna get one [TS]

00:55:12   right and it's because it denied wireless and it caused enough Wireless [TS]

00:55:16   it couldn't communicate and you know what people do communicate that's the [TS]

00:55:20   fundamental just of why the internet got popular in the nineties was people [TS]

00:55:25   communicated with each other until people can communicate with each other [TS]

00:55:28   they had no interest in in PC's the mass market it was only for us nerds [TS]

00:55:35   same thing with handheld and you know that would doom the Newton Newton needed [TS]

00:55:41   anything that that you carry around a helping hand in need wireless networking [TS]

00:55:45   as it needs to be a communications device now I think that that we do it is [TS]

00:55:50   it is the perfect example and and this is you know this gets to why why Apple [TS]

00:55:56   has focused on the communication aspect of the watch and you know the drawing [TS]

00:56:01   and in the hard yards our stuff i mean obviously again have to wait and see how [TS]

00:56:06   it actually works out in real life but that's why it's a temple feature because [TS]

00:56:10   that's that's what matters to normal people [TS]

00:56:19   talk about the headline for this article I it drives me crazy that's this is the [TS]

00:56:26   the Wired article [TS]

00:56:28   the headline is iPhone killer Colin the secret history of the airport none of [TS]

00:56:35   that is true it is not an iPhone killer right it never lets the worst into me a [TS]

00:56:44   bad headline is like a bad first impression everything has to recover [TS]

00:56:50   from that because the first so your article the headline sets such a false [TS]

00:56:55   impression right it's the watch is useless without literally well not [TS]

00:57:05   literally I guess there are certain functionality still works outside the [TS]

00:57:09   range of your phone but it is fundamentally designed to work as it is [TS]

00:57:17   a companion it is supposed to make your life with your phone [TS]

00:57:20   better that's the gist of it it's not a killer and maybe someday it will be [TS]

00:57:25   alright maybe someday there will be certainly seems possible with the march [TS]

00:57:29   of technology that that within a few years whether that's three years four [TS]

00:57:33   years five years six years that you know the watch will have its own life I first [TS]

00:57:38   probably watch could have its own cellular and be the main device and then [TS]

00:57:44   you would buy something like an iPod Touch just to be your four-inch [TS]

00:57:48   five-inch screen that connects to the watch it must have wifi because of the [TS]

00:57:54   Holy works in your house even yeah but it doesn't use but like you can't set up [TS]

00:57:59   let's say like you never log into your home wi-fi it's that whole wifi back [TS]

00:58:03   channel thing right you don't you don't type a password in your watch so that [TS]

00:58:09   when your phone isn't there it's on the internet and getting notification light [TS]

00:58:13   writing that back channel I forget what the technical term for this but it's [TS]

00:58:17   that way that wifi can now have a direct I think yes I'm saying that in the [TS]

00:58:23   future [TS]

00:58:24   clearly it's a natural progression that the white would have its own wifi [TS]

00:58:28   and then you could leave the house without your phone and if it knows the [TS]

00:58:32   Starbucks network it can when you get there it'll get notifications in the [TS]

00:58:36   email and stuff like that right there and then you can send text messages or I [TS]

00:58:40   message SMS but you can send messages emails right from your watch without [TS]

00:58:45   your phone present that's coming in the future shortly unless the product is so [TS]

00:58:49   unpopular that they stopped making [TS]

00:58:52   LG just just just watch the watch with LT I mean so it's like it it's in the [TS]

00:58:57   realm of possibility I think Samsung had clearly as possible I just a question of [TS]

00:59:04   when it will be ready for an apple caliber product that headline so bad is [TS]

00:59:09   not an iPhone killer absolutely not and then the secret history the Apple watch [TS]

00:59:14   boy that is really overstating the access that he got right I mean how much [TS]

00:59:19   this this is not the secret history of the Apple watch if there's a problem [TS]

00:59:25   with the article is that it's so incomplete about the creation story of [TS]

00:59:28   the Apple watch there are very few details about what what passes they went [TS]

00:59:35   down in backtracked on in the three years that they were working on it ya [TS]

00:59:40   know if you didn't even the one that was in here those kinda interesting but the [TS]

00:59:43   timeline wasn't really was only fleshed out now [TS]

00:59:46   wasn't forced out in any in any degree so you know who his son to me quick baby [TS]

00:59:52   headline from Wired compared to New Yorker which the headline is the shape [TS]

00:59:59   of things to come [TS]

01:00:00   our industrial designer became Apple's greatest product and in their their [TS]

01:00:04   title tag for the article which is a little different [TS]

01:00:07   is Jonathan Ive in the future of Apple Valley Fair not click baby it off and [TS]

01:00:12   the article got tons of attention it got all the attention it deserves [TS]

01:00:15   well welcome welcome welcome to the reality of today's world wide web but [TS]

01:00:24   take a break and in the last thing you can do in the article we'll talk about [TS]

01:00:26   the quote from me another another area where else to look into the rural area [TS]

01:00:34   like you're grumpy yeah [TS]

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01:00:54   dashboard on the web you can put it anywhere you can put a website so you [TS]

01:00:57   can look like you know computer up to a big TV set or something like that [TS]

01:01:02   hanging on office for your team and there are dozens of pre-built widgets [TS]

01:01:07   for services like Google Analytics get hub Twitter so you can get stuff from [TS]

01:01:14   Twitter for your company's Twitter account to play it on a big dashboard on [TS]

01:01:19   a TV or something like that pertain to see also hook up with ABS figures at [TS]

01:01:23   figures is really cool company that does app analytics so you can see things like [TS]

01:01:28   how many reviews your appt got home resales you had yesterday or this week [TS]

01:01:35   or month today and stuff like that so if you just want to put up a dashboard that [TS]

01:01:39   crafts things like you know your app sales for the last month or last week or [TS]

01:01:45   whatever [TS]

01:01:46   dash in you use a preggers already number one if you don't use that figures [TS]

01:01:50   you should look into it but then if you use dash you can hook up dad figures and [TS]

01:01:53   get that graft in a really really cool way and you're not limited to their [TS]

01:01:59   pre-built widgets API so you can do custom data the API you can use to push [TS]

01:02:07   real-time data or pull it from sources like Google Drive Dropbox or pretty much [TS]

01:02:14   anywhere in web of you can build something that can put data into Dropbox [TS]

01:02:20   which is pretty easy as promises like rain file you can set up a custom dash [TS]

01:02:26   which it that'll just log in your Dropbox account and pull the data from [TS]

01:02:30   there the pricing model is fairly simple three accounts get unlimited public [TS]

01:02:36   dashboards so that people can share live data with the world with the community [TS]

01:02:42   upgrade to pro [TS]

01:02:44   you can get unlimited private dashboards and you can get themes and access to the [TS]

01:02:50   real time push API the real time push it was only for pro scouts 10 bucks a month [TS]

01:02:56   that's it just 10 bucks a month and you can get approached count really cool so [TS]

01:03:00   free account you can use it to see how cool it is used to freak out see how [TS]

01:03:04   cool it is but they're also running a limited time promotion if you sign up [TS]

01:03:09   for a free account today at their website now their website is the dash [TS]

01:03:13   dot com the dash dot com your get one private dashboard in addition to your [TS]

01:03:21   free accounts on limited public dashboards so you can even try the [TS]

01:03:26   private dashboards for free with the limited time promotion to see how cold [TS]

01:03:30   it is no credit card required and they will keep your private dashboard your [TS]

01:03:36   keep it forever so it's not like during a limited time promotion wanted to over [TS]

01:03:41   your private dashboard disappears you get to keep it really cool stuff so go [TS]

01:03:46   check them out at the dash dot com thanks to join read the part of the [TS]

01:03:56   first paragraph is the first paragraph of David Pearson story that I stepped up [TS]

01:04:05   475 on the call by the way [TS]

01:04:10   ok firstly isaacson which at which the half of it was just like rewriting other [TS]

01:04:15   stuff but are you told fortune and and here I thought I could dope you told [TS]

01:04:23   fortune I thought we had missed it we had to work hard to catch up speaking [TS]

01:04:27   about music and and the fact they kind of reject reject everything and this is [TS]

01:04:34   like this is the I know you share my frustration with this like the whole [TS]

01:04:37   mythology about Apple creating these new products like Apple doesn't create Apple [TS]

01:04:43   Bri hasn't created new pricing create a new user interfaces [TS]

01:04:47   but you know the the match with the idea of a wimp interface was famously you [TS]

01:04:55   know initially Xerox this new audio mp3 player with a new idea of a smartphone [TS]

01:05:00   was in new media tablet wasn't really knew I mean and what they do though is [TS]

01:05:06   they do it really well and part of doing really well as they do at the right time [TS]

01:05:12   with the right technology and it's just like i dnt goes back to this kind of [TS]

01:05:18   fundamental like myth-making nature of of the press and I know this is the case [TS]

01:05:23   in all readers in politics is Jason sports everything is about you more and [TS]

01:05:28   more with sports or music or spend his more and more writing about kinda like [TS]

01:05:33   the intricacies of the game and game planning and how we propose that that [TS]

01:05:37   which I well they dig into but the sports writing that we had for years and [TS]

01:05:41   you still get a place like ESPN and stuff like that is on the front page is [TS]

01:05:45   the mythological great man or a great woman you know overcoming adversity 22 [TS]

01:05:51   to win the day when that's actually that's a story and and it's not how [TS]

01:05:57   products are made but again like I said it's on Apple to create the myth and [TS]

01:06:04   it's the myth-making that that is gone [TS]

01:06:07   join read the first paragraph of this iPhone killer story or at least the I [TS]

01:06:13   guess the second paragraph 2 there's a paragraph mark know it's a failure rate [TS]

01:06:19   this terrible way out yeah cabinets are so proud of it are all in early 2013 [TS]

01:06:28   Kevin which accepted the job offer from Apple will be offered in say what he [TS]

01:06:32   would be doing it was odd that Apple even offered him a job during his [TS]

01:06:37   eight-year that Adobe most recently as chief technology officer he was best [TS]

01:06:40   known as the only person dumb enough to publicly fight Steve Jobs with iPhones [TS]

01:06:43   lack of support flash videos which of course he wasn't only one but whatever [TS]

01:06:46   when when she announces move the reaction was immediate [TS]

01:06:50   they want this guy [TS]

01:06:51   Apple blogger John Gruber called wince quote a bozo cama a bad hire period [TS]

01:06:57   unquote Newberry I didn't and I know it's nuance and its harsh but when he [TS]

01:07:03   was hired this was actually exactly two years ago [TS]

01:07:07   Tuesday 19th March 2 2013 [TS]

01:07:12   this is all in the headline I put this in motion [TS]

01:07:17   exhibit a in the case that newly hired Apple VP of technology Kevin Lynch is a [TS]

01:07:25   bozo about higher the nuance there is i didnt say he is a bozo a bad hire eyes [TS]

01:07:34   said there is a case to be made that he is and the case to me was you know not [TS]

01:07:41   that it was good or that was convincing but you know and I quote from a blog [TS]

01:07:46   post that he had written at Adobe three years ago talking about Flash Player and [TS]

01:07:51   and so here's the city's our word from Kevin Lynch's three years before the [TS]

01:07:58   2010 we are now on the verge of delivering Flash Player 10.1 for [TS]

01:08:02   smartphones with all but one of the top manufacturers this includes Google's [TS]

01:08:07   Android RIM's BlackBerry Nokia palm pre and many others across form factors [TS]

01:08:13   including not only smart phones but also tablets netbooks and internet-connected [TS]

01:08:17   TVs flash in the browser provides a competitive advantage to these devices [TS]

01:08:22   because it will enable their customers to browse the whole web so those are [TS]

01:08:27   lynch's words right that's you know he wrote that or at least put his name on [TS]

01:08:32   it and I wrote well how'd that work out those companies and platforms are now [TS]

01:08:37   either at this is Dan this was two years ago AP out of business [TS]

01:08:42   be on the verge of going out of business or see have abandoned Flash Player [TS]

01:08:46   entirely [TS]

01:08:47   include d that the web is identified as it is [TS]

01:08:52   yea well and the lights right [TS]

01:08:57   so I stand by it or not you know I but I didn't say he was I said there was a [TS]

01:09:05   case to be made that he was and I know that I'm asking for nuance that [TS]

01:09:11   depressed typically doesn't give but to me it's important it's you know clearly [TS]

01:09:16   we're going to Judge Kevin Lynch on the quality of Apple watch software and you [TS]

01:09:22   know he might prove himself that you know ok you know he was dealt a bad hand [TS]

01:09:26   at Adobe any argument would be then that he was the loyal company man and that he [TS]

01:09:32   knew he knew damn well when he wrote it that it was a bad hand and he was loyal [TS]

01:09:36   to the company but i just i don't like that I don't like having it quoted that [TS]

01:09:42   I said it was a bozo because I didn't say that and I wouldn't have because I [TS]

01:09:46   don't feel like you know me the nuances important I could be there he didn't he [TS]

01:09:51   knew damn well that it was pilot ship and that he was just being a regular [TS]

01:09:57   doing doing right by the company as he saw fit I don't know how we as the [TS]

01:10:05   reading it I have to have to be honest reading it [TS]

01:10:09   yes you are clearly said it is a case you say he was a bozo I will say that i [TS]

01:10:15   very much remembered your post about Canon lense and when I saw the quote in [TS]

01:10:21   the article a a new you'd be annoyed but be I thought it was only fair that I [TS]

01:10:25   remembered you saying so I wouldn't say unfair but I feel like it misses the new [TS]

01:10:30   ones and then another line from his hero hero for example the recent Nexus One [TS]

01:10:37   from Google will rock with a great experience in the browser with Flash [TS]

01:10:40   Player 10.1 and then I said yeah it rocked so hard [TS]

01:10:45   Google dropped Flash Player support from Android last year with a link to where [TS]

01:10:51   Google dropped Flash Player support from and rate now area like there's no I i [TS]

01:10:57   completely shared your skepticism I mean when I was I was in remain very critical [TS]

01:11:03   of the of the initial watch unveiling again for the exact same reason because [TS]

01:11:07   I just felt the messaging was so poor [TS]

01:11:10   or and I call out the fact that boy the camera lens part really bothered me I [TS]

01:11:15   was bothering was hired [TS]

01:11:17   other people are brothers hair did I wake to this post led the way and then I [TS]

01:11:22   said for me at least is seeming inability to focus our prioritizes offer [TS]

01:11:25   double confirm any of those misgivings so no I mean there's no question that he [TS]

01:11:30   he had a ton I will say I thought he I thought he crushed the event like I am I [TS]

01:11:39   thought his was by far the strongest part of the second watch event I thought [TS]

01:11:43   he captured the way the watch can resume 11 my my my my case for the watch is [TS]

01:11:50   always been the United more of a watching watching the app was [TS]

01:11:55   particularly more of a white whereas technology going view and one I think [TS]

01:12:00   that's a natural next place into I think what's interesting is is the phone gave [TS]

01:12:05   us the ability to interact with anyone anything anywhere in the world but what [TS]

01:12:10   the watch will give us the chance to interact with everything in our physical [TS]

01:12:13   environment and that's what winced when stem Odin that's more of a longer-range [TS]

01:12:18   vision because the water this stuff for that isn't in place yet but that's [TS]

01:12:24   that's what he did and that's why I'm bullish because I think that the watch [TS]

01:12:28   makes sense [TS]

01:12:30   a watch make sense one and two apple has deserve the best the dollar paid they've [TS]

01:12:35   now they're at their 343 right now and if anyone's going tell it like until [TS]

01:12:40   they prove otherwise I'll presume they will that's at the core that's why I'm [TS]

01:12:44   bullish and I think alcohol and Lynch in particular demonstrate that at the last [TS]

01:12:50   event but that's not come across in these articles one thing I heard when I [TS]

01:12:55   wrote that and I don't know if I don't think I wrote about it I don't know if I [TS]

01:12:59   i dont member of 5 sell it on the show but after I wrote that this was back [TS]

01:13:04   when he was first hired one thing I heard from let's say a well-placed 30 in [TS]

01:13:09   Cupertino [TS]

01:13:12   who would know somebody have birdie with a position who would know if it were [TS]

01:13:16   true said to me that in fact Steve Jobs and personally recruited now obviously [TS]

01:13:23   he was hired he was hired in 2013 13 two years ago steve Jobs was already dead [TS]

01:13:30   but I what I heard from one source who would know was that jobs tried to [TS]

01:13:36   recruit him years prior I don't know exactly when probably 2010 2011 2010 [TS]

01:13:44   thinking about it and he turned him down specifically because he thought it he [TS]

01:13:53   owed it to Adobe to stick with them and that it would he he he thought it would [TS]

01:13:57   look little glitch thought it would really make Adobe look bad if he left [TS]

01:14:01   for Apple in the mid the middle of the flat in the middle of this Flash Player [TS]

01:14:05   stuff and that he stuck with them out of loyalty with Adobe out of loyalty now I [TS]

01:14:11   i you know I would if Lynch told me that I would take it as fact I heard it from [TS]

01:14:15   the second hand store so take it with a grain of salt [TS]

01:14:18   I don't know if that's true but spend I don't know but I heard that he was with [TS]

01:14:23   Mike metromedia so presumably sheler that might have been maybe that was the [TS]

01:14:29   connection I wonder though because she was there so long ago that's true that [TS]

01:14:34   we were talking mid nineties so I don't know about that [TS]

01:14:39   here's the thing about the loyalty to me the best thing you can say about lunch [TS]

01:14:42   is if he believed all that stuff about flash player for being from mobile being [TS]

01:14:48   a you know a great thing that's going to help everybody but a ball in that Apple [TS]

01:14:52   should get on it if you really thought and in in what was a 2011 or was it [TS]

01:15:00   2010 he wrote that in 2010 if you really thought that flash player for mobile was [TS]

01:15:06   a winner for everybody but a ball in that Apple should get on board and do it [TS]

01:15:10   to me that the damage because it's was just bad technology and it was really [TS]

01:15:14   bad for mobile you know [TS]

01:15:16   you know I'm I am i i agree and you get to the genuine article and talking about [TS]

01:15:22   the idea that you know you're not being honest if you're not like being critical [TS]

01:15:28   at the same time before I went to Microsoft in with a first unveiled [TS]

01:15:34   windows 8 at AllThingsD this is be twenty I think 2011 I dot was awful I [TS]

01:15:43   trashed it I put us on Twitter at which I then which unfortunately is no longer [TS]

01:15:47   there because my classes like dude you know you're going to work very selective [TS]

01:15:51   hearing that already gotten people already got in trouble with my Twitter [TS]

01:15:56   account previously do that do they have actually its story now is that Apple was [TS]

01:16:04   a school thing but then I went out I went to Mexican I worked on on Windows 8 [TS]

01:16:10   and and will think when you're working on your recruiting and I was in charge [TS]

01:16:17   of or not injured I was one of the people on the team getting developers to [TS]

01:16:21   build for Windows 8 and you're kind of selling it right and you you have to end [TS]

01:16:26   there's a certain sense of like I can I i maybe I should just quit her only [TS]

01:16:35   believe in it but if you're like that you're fresh out of school like this is [TS]

01:16:39   a big opportunity actually someone the teams are organizers doing a jobs a [TS]

01:16:42   little above me ton responsibility had a ton a ton of impact and there's there's [TS]

01:16:48   a kind of subconscious thing like well maybe I have my doubts but I'm gonna [TS]

01:16:54   come up with those in a cover for now and I'm going to work my ass off and do [TS]

01:16:57   the best I can do with which I did and I told close friends like I told about my [TS]

01:17:01   misgivings it like the issues with it by boy as far as it impacts my dating life [TS]

01:17:07   my professional life like I was giving it my all and sure enough when it came [TS]

01:17:11   out like all my initial misgivings ended up being totally spot on but I i cant [TS]

01:17:18   awhile back that both humbled for search and a little ashamed but also [TS]

01:17:23   appreciative [TS]

01:17:25   for how you can lose sight of what what is true and end-user someone like [TS]

01:17:32   johnnie I berard week seven wins in his position you have the luxury of you can [TS]

01:17:37   step off but I do use some things in in history where people can like just go [TS]

01:17:42   down the wrong path in man I join you in judging him but I also empathize and can [TS]

01:17:50   sympathize because I I feel bad about it I feel bad that i sat down at the same [TS]

01:17:55   time I can appreciate why that happened to me right cuz it and who knows what he [TS]

01:17:59   was saying inside I mean that's you know what he said publicly [TS]

01:18:05   I would not want to put my name on something public that to go that all in [TS]

01:18:11   on if I was the CTO of Adobe in 2010 there's no way I would have put my name [TS]

01:18:16   on that publicly even matter how loyal I wanted to be the company and I realize [TS]

01:18:20   that as you know the CT 0 of Adobe he couldn't say anything bad about it at [TS]

01:18:25   the time publicly and that Adobe as a whole was going to market it and try to [TS]

01:18:30   do it but he had to know was a bad technology and I really bad fit for [TS]

01:18:36   mobile devices and processors in terms of performance and just where you know [TS]

01:18:41   where everything was going I mean I took so much flak at the time from certain [TS]

01:18:46   people with my adamant my absolute adamant that you know that flash was [TS]

01:18:51   terrible for mobile I've always a pleasure is terrible for desktop but it [TS]

01:18:55   was you know horrible and that the best thing that ever happened to the web [TS]

01:19:00   the open web was Apple's refusal to put flash on these devices and it [TS]

01:19:06   single-handedly in my opinion got video out of the proprietary and terribly [TS]

01:19:13   performing flash player and into you know just you know HTML 5 compatible [TS]

01:19:22   with 264 in etcetera [TS]

01:19:24   thats can be played more efficiently and openly and doesn't require any sort of [TS]

01:19:29   locked into one particular plug-in architecture is my actually stumbled [TS]

01:19:36   across his personal website via Wikipedia and it has these kind of you [TS]

01:19:41   know it's in paragraph form but kind of what he's done and there is no mention [TS]

01:19:45   of the word flash surprisingly does like dobie as its leader dobie help to find [TS]

01:19:53   related Creative Cloud [TS]

01:19:54   Adobe marketing cloud no no flash I did earlier this is Kevin Lynch from his [TS]

01:20:00   website I will put this in the show if I wrote it down on paper [TS]

01:20:03   get in earlier I was a Mac software developer helped develop the first Mac [TS]

01:20:08   release of FrameMaker and then led their core technology team frame technology [TS]

01:20:12   was also acquired by this helped establish one of the first Mac software [TS]

01:20:17   startups in 1984 frame by frame maker no great great software really great [TS]

01:20:24   software and and the fact that it again dodi sort of I guess it's gone now I [TS]

01:20:29   guess it's dead I don't think I've ever made the transition Oosten I think it [TS]

01:20:32   was I don't think there was ever a native OS 10 version of it and it was [TS]

01:20:36   strategically subsumed by in design and InDesign [TS]

01:20:41   with FrameMaker we see I used it bare bones where we had it was super focused [TS]

01:20:45   rate yeah if it wasn't quite as designer is I would like and I had I used to live [TS]

01:20:53   breathing QuarkXPress and so I mean yeah that's as i knew i used i would i would [TS]

01:20:58   get frustrated by some of the ways that frame wasn't as design court I could [TS]

01:21:05   make a thing [TS]

01:21:06   print out with the exact as I know wanted down to I'm gonna say hundreds of [TS]

01:21:11   thousands of I mean and it was spot-on accurate and it was just you know it [TS]

01:21:17   would come out of the printer exactly everything positioned exactly where I [TS]

01:21:21   wanted in FrameMaker didn't let you position things quite as precisely is as [TS]

01:21:26   quiet but the thing that frame had was this book making features where you [TS]

01:21:30   could select from making here's the canonical [TS]

01:21:33   example is to make an index for the book is you could select text and say I wanna [TS]

01:21:38   make an index entry right here and you got precise control over what the entry [TS]

01:21:45   in the index would be called we're pointed to an end as you edit the [TS]

01:21:49   document and moved things around it just worked right it you just did not have to [TS]

01:21:55   worry about your index connections breaking or working it was brilliant and [TS]

01:22:00   it really really and it's a tricky tricky problem this all really I mean [TS]

01:22:04   they doing a good index rose book is infamously dick difficult and expensive [TS]

01:22:09   to get somebody do it and you know at the time [TS]

01:22:13   BBEdit manual was there I mean it was like 300 pages and had a great index and [TS]

01:22:21   it was so easy FrameMaker made it so easy to keep that index up to date as [TS]

01:22:25   you went and you know added new features are so great great great apps at a [TS]

01:22:30   feather in his cap while we are we are we all have a very upset when I was over [TS]

01:22:44   when I get out and watch now an hour and a half in so I do it's funny that you [TS]

01:22:49   brought it up tho cuz that's exactly where I was going with the whole [TS]

01:22:53   with the with his role with flash and mobile is on one side he really believed [TS]

01:22:59   that it was you know could be a could be the future of mobile which would [TS]

01:23:03   indicate that he's about it I don't believe that I think that I have my [TS]

01:23:08   guess is that he knew exactly what the score was and he was being loyal to [TS]

01:23:12   Adobe that those like you said in and of itself is maybe not loyalty is a general [TS]

01:23:18   thing is great but maybe in that case it's like I was going to go there with [TS]

01:23:23   the Johnny I love story about Steve Jobs saying you know don't just say good [TS]

01:23:27   things about you gotta be honest if you're not being honest you're doing a [TS]

01:23:30   disservice to the people you're talking to and that it was a disservice [TS]

01:23:34   you know to Adobe 22 let them keep pushing forward because it's so it's so [TS]

01:23:41   rare though I mean it's it's [TS]

01:23:44   well actually in bed big companies and adobe is doing pretty good their last [TS]

01:23:48   quarter results were pretty good and I'm happy to see that I think I think the [TS]

01:23:53   industry is better with a healthy strong successful Adobe as an independent [TS]

01:23:57   company I completely agree and I the way they've in the way they've transition [TS]

01:24:01   their products to being to the to being a service basically has been really [TS]

01:24:07   impressive no III I completely agree actually just they just released a new [TS]

01:24:12   app a couple hours ago you are going to see yet Adobe slate of Israel story [TS]

01:24:17   storytelling out for the iPad where you can be used photos and text to create [TS]

01:24:22   wake [TS]

01:24:23   greater story in it it's it's iffy also like Adobe as in the bus possible way [TS]

01:24:30   right it's like wedding you waste a felt create something that looks really [TS]

01:24:35   really great to create like your own product in a sense they could all be wet [TS]

01:24:39   you create what you create a great products in the best possible sense and [TS]

01:24:44   when they're at their best and what's what's fascinating about this is a wake [TS]

01:24:50   who is arguably if you think about it who is who if anyone is pushing the [TS]

01:24:55   envelope in the iPad right now [TS]

01:24:57   way there aren't many and when to be fascinating if kinda like the the the [TS]

01:25:03   two companies that are you we are producing some of the most highly paid [TS]

01:25:06   after an hour ago via Microsoft [TS]

01:25:09   a replay alright yeah it is a reply to the Mac right because let's just say [TS]

01:25:15   that [TS]

01:25:16   8484 was the original Mac was severely limited machine 85 86 87 or so is when I [TS]

01:25:24   would say the Mac really kind of got up off the ground in terms of the [TS]

01:25:29   performance of the year up to this 60 80 20 yet but it was getting close to [TS]

01:25:37   another 60 twenties in the 6800 thirties eventually but their end and with other [TS]

01:25:46   form factors were you can get bigger displays and stuff like that [TS]

01:25:49   and more ran and then famously you know the desktop publishing industry which is [TS]

01:25:56   built on the Mac that didn't come from Apple AAPL never had a desktop [TS]

01:25:59   publishing house I mean Apple came out with the laser writer would certainly [TS]

01:26:02   help but you know it was software from Adobe and quirky and who did paid me [TS]

01:26:09   about us that really made that an industry and again Microsoft it was [TS]

01:26:15   absolutely excel Excel started on the Mac right or at least microsoft word was [TS]

01:26:24   huge Mac App you know lots of great software from Microsoft for the app for [TS]

01:26:30   them for the Mac in the eighties and absolutely help make the mac and [TS]

01:26:35   obviously never got entrenched as a widespread you know business computer [TS]

01:26:38   but it in places they did of mags it was Microsoft's offer that made it possible [TS]

01:26:43   and I i i i know i kind of feel like you know Apple you know to some extent they [TS]

01:26:57   do the way that I feel they've admitted the App Store and limit the ability to [TS]

01:27:00   build sustainable apps in my estimation you know without not having the [TS]

01:27:05   electrolyte heavy things like easy upgrades I i I kind of feel like that [TS]

01:27:11   one there's the whole you know commodity cheaper apps is good for the platform [TS]

01:27:16   within within a certain women arm but I think they they remembered you know [TS]

01:27:22   being in a position where it got to the point where the Microsoft and Adobe apps [TS]

01:27:26   were more important than the Mac right and like Steve Jobs said he liked [TS]

01:27:30   prostrating himself ready jet that out [TS]

01:27:36   no way no way of knowing that it's it's really more of an existing the present [TS]

01:27:43   occupant you know almost like literally with this massive message of Bill Gates [TS]

01:27:51   of Dawn is green you don't Microsoft riding into the rescue and then Adobe [TS]

01:27:56   why would they want to August 10 Adobe won't even come over right like they [TS]

01:28:00   refuse them [TS]

01:28:01   customers aren't really there and you know I would never want to be hostage to [TS]

01:28:07   out makers again and and it turns out though because no one's really been able [TS]

01:28:14   to build especially the productivity space a meaningful business on the iPad [TS]

01:28:19   in particular it turns out it's the same guys they're they're in its Microsoft [TS]

01:28:24   and Adobe in exile just find it fascinating impel awake be the history [TS]

01:28:29   of this relationship [TS]

01:28:31   yeah they were definitely I i think that with again I don't got a huge digression [TS]

01:28:37   circa 1997 industry politics but it is interesting now I do think so that you [TS]

01:28:46   know dobie and Microsoft at least especially combined held far more sway [TS]

01:28:52   over Apple's future than Apple itself did you know maybe they could have [TS]

01:28:57   gotten by with one hand on board and not the other [TS]

01:29:00   either way but not both and you know in the end it it certainly you know [TS]

01:29:05   exemplified with the original rhapsody interaction with the first in the first [TS]

01:29:10   plan that was announced post next reunification which was a very it was [TS]

01:29:16   much it was more or less the next step operating system without carbon it was [TS]

01:29:23   your gonna have to rewrite coco nino they called it could have been more or [TS]

01:29:27   less you know it was more or less we're gonna you know we're gonna do it put a [TS]

01:29:31   news Apple's style UI on the next step operating system right and there's no [TS]

01:29:38   carbon no carbon and that went over like a lead balloon and more last microsoft [TS]

01:29:45   said we're not doing that it would be a rewrite and everybody knows you know [TS]

01:29:49   going from this existing code bases on the Mac to pure next step would have [TS]

01:29:56   been a complete rewrite its a new platform and they were going nowhere [TS]