ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► It's winter now and the temperature has finally dropped enough in our area that I'm using

00:00:06 ◼   ► humidifiers again, it's humidifier season.

00:00:09 ◼   ► And I'm wondering for to present a question to our, our well informed and oddly specifically

00:00:16 ◼   ► placed listener base in certain industries.

00:00:18 ◼   ► I want to know.

00:00:20 ◼   ► So every winter, I get like super cracked, like hand skin like around my nails, just

00:00:26 ◼   ► cracks and hurts and does any do any of these like hand cream things or even the even humidifiers

00:00:34 ◼   ► does this do anything like to do any of these things help is your question right can i can

00:00:39 ◼   ► i like this is kind of like the question that like many young children and often some adults

00:00:45 ◼   ► have it's another secret weird thing kind of uh rectum response where they're like sometimes

00:00:51 ◼   ► i get headaches but i don't believe that headache medicine medicine does anything does it do

00:00:56 ◼   ► anything? No, because a lot, first of all, a lot of medicines don't do anything, so

00:01:00 ◼   ► that's a reasonable question. Right, but I'm saying like the whole, the idea is

00:01:04 ◼   ► that the whole rest of the world, including doctors, would tell you, hey, if

00:01:09 ◼   ► you have a mild headache, maybe take like aspirin or Tylenol or Advil, right? But

00:01:12 ◼   ► you're living your whole life thinking, "Ah, that probably doesn't do anything,"

00:01:15 ◼   ► right? So here you are, you've got cold, you've got like dry cracked hands, and

00:01:19 ◼   ► your question is, do moisturizers moisturize? That's what it comes down to. Yes, yes, putting

00:01:25 ◼   ► moisturizer on your dry hands,

00:01:28 ◼   ► it's like what kind of question is that?

00:01:30 ◼   ► Or you could just not and continue to have dry hands.

00:01:32 ◼   ► Now your humidifier question is better,

00:01:33 ◼   ► because that's like okay, well I'm humidifying

00:01:35 ◼   ► the whole air, is that helping me as well?

00:01:37 ◼   ► But like, but stop, stop, if you have dry hands,

00:01:40 ◼   ► use moisturizer please.

00:01:41 ◼   ► - No, and I do, I mean, moisturizer sucks,

00:01:44 ◼   ► because like, you know, then you can't use that hand,

00:01:46 ◼   ► those hands for a couple of minutes as it like dries in.

00:01:49 ◼   ► - All right, well now that's a better question,

00:01:50 ◼   ► which is like tell me a good moisturizer

00:01:52 ◼   ► that doesn't have the--

00:01:54 ◼   ► - No, I have good moisturizers.

00:01:55 ◼   ► I have like stupidly good ones that I love,

00:01:58 ◼   ► like how they feel after a few minutes at least.

00:02:01 ◼   ► I just don't know if they're doing anything.

00:02:03 ◼   ► Like I, you know, are they actually fixing the problem

00:02:06 ◼   ► of my hands always crack and get painful in the winter?

00:02:09 ◼   ► - Moisturizers are not entirely placebos.

00:02:12 ◼   ► I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that.

00:02:14 ◼   ► Most moisturizers, I have to say most.

00:02:15 ◼   ► - Is that true?

00:02:16 ◼   ► That's kind of what I'm asking.

00:02:17 ◼   ► It's like, I don't know.

00:02:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think this is, I think it's a safe bet

00:02:21 ◼   ► that not all moisturizers are placebos.

00:02:25 ◼   ► - Is it?

00:02:26 ◼   ► - I think it is a safe bet.

00:02:27 ◼   ► I will say that I do not have anything

00:02:30 ◼   ► that really resembles a skincare routine,

00:02:32 ◼   ► and I don't say that with pride.

00:02:33 ◼   ► - Or winter. - Yeah, right, or winter.

00:02:35 ◼   ► Ha ha ha.

00:02:36 ◼   ► - Or air that's ever dry enough for this to be an issue.

00:02:38 ◼   ► - Ha ha ha, yes, yes, yes.

00:02:40 ◼   ► Anyway, I think it's gonna be like the low of 15 tomorrow

00:02:44 ◼   ► or something like that, so come off it.

00:02:46 ◼   ► Anyway, I have tried many a moisturizing lotion

00:02:51 ◼   ► in my day for my money, and I'm not trying to say

00:02:54 ◼   ► this is the universally correct answer.

00:02:55 ◼   ► Just for me, the one that I have had

00:02:58 ◼   ► the best experience with by a mile is cetaphil.

00:03:02 ◼   ► C-E-T-A-P-H-I-L, which is not an uncommon lotion.

00:03:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've seen that before.

00:03:07 ◼   ► - It's all over the place.

00:03:09 ◼   ► I vastly prefer this because with most lotions,

00:03:13 ◼   ► I feel like gross and weird on my skin.

00:03:15 ◼   ► You were kind of alluding to this.

00:03:17 ◼   ► But I feel that way for like 20 or 30 minutes.

00:03:21 ◼   ► With cetaphil, it dries in the span

00:03:23 ◼   ► of just a couple of minutes, and then it's like,

00:03:26 ◼   ► other than the fact that your skin has moisture in it now,

00:03:28 ◼   ► it's like it was never there.

00:03:30 ◼   ► And so I would strongly encourage you

00:03:33 ◼   ► to give Cetaphil a try.

00:03:34 ◼   ► I will put a link in the show notes

00:03:37 ◼   ► to what I believe is the one that I use,

00:03:39 ◼   ► as with all medicines or dermatological things.

00:03:43 ◼   ► There's a thousand variations

00:03:45 ◼   ► that are all basically identical.

00:03:47 ◼   ► But this is what I use and I recommend.

00:03:50 ◼   ► This may or may not work for you,

00:03:52 ◼   ► But again, the reason I like it so much is because after just a minute, maybe two tops,

00:03:57 ◼   ► that icky, like, oily feeling goes away. It is there at first, but it goes away super fast.

00:04:03 ◼   ► Like, how long after you've applied it can you open a doorknob?

00:04:06 ◼   ► That's a fair question. No, it's a fair-- Don't scoff at him, John. That's a reasonable question.

00:04:11 ◼   ► I would say--

00:04:12 ◼   ► Well, like, I think you could always open the doorknob. It's just that it feels icky to you,

00:04:16 ◼   ► though, or you don't want to get moisturizer on the doorknob.

00:04:18 ◼   ► No, sometimes it's genuinely hard if you put it on the palms of your hands.

00:04:22 ◼   ► - I mean, how stiff are your doorknobs here?

00:04:24 ◼   ► - Oh, stop it.

00:04:26 ◼   ► Anyways, I would say, to answer your question,

00:04:29 ◼   ► five minutes or less.

00:04:30 ◼   ► - And how long after you apply it,

00:04:32 ◼   ► could you touch a glass touchscreen

00:04:34 ◼   ► and have it not smear something on it?

00:04:37 ◼   ► - Five days, no, I'm kidding.

00:04:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:04:39 ◼   ► Again, I think that's a perfectly reasonable barometer,

00:04:42 ◼   ► and I don't know off the top of my head,

00:04:44 ◼   ► I mean, obviously neither of us, and certainly not John,

00:04:46 ◼   ► would be touching a glass screen

00:04:47 ◼   ► other than maybe a phone, but--

00:04:50 ◼   ► - I use my iPad, what are you talking about?

00:04:51 ◼   ► Oh, that's fair, fair, fair, all right, I take it back.

00:04:53 ◼   ► - It was touch screens all day long.

00:04:55 ◼   ► - I'd rather just avoid the need for these things

00:04:57 ◼   ► because I hate having goop on me.

00:04:59 ◼   ► And also, you know, I'm always, as I get older,

00:05:02 ◼   ► I'm increasingly conservative about like, you know,

00:05:05 ◼   ► what kind of chemicals I'm allowing to be applied

00:05:08 ◼   ► on my body or enter my body.

00:05:09 ◼   ► Like, you know, I wanna like not take unnecessary risks

00:05:13 ◼   ► with weird chemicals and stuff.

00:05:14 ◼   ► So, you know, I just, I'm trying to figure out like,

00:05:16 ◼   ► are there any other solutions to this problem

00:05:18 ◼   ► that don't involve gooping up my hands all day

00:05:20 ◼   ► with crap that I hate.

00:05:22 ◼   ► - My recommendation is to be 100% Italian

00:05:24 ◼   ► and produce so much skin oil that you never need

00:05:27 ◼   ► to use moisturizer in your entire life.

00:05:29 ◼   ► - Well, the other thing is, I'm also like,

00:05:32 ◼   ► you know, the division of labor in our house,

00:05:35 ◼   ► in broad strokes, there are some exceptions,

00:05:37 ◼   ► but in broad strokes, Tiff is in charge of soft things,

00:05:41 ◼   ► and I'm in charge of wires in the kitchen.

00:05:43 ◼   ► Oh, and dog is usually me too.

00:05:45 ◼   ► But the kitchen part of my duties mean that

00:05:47 ◼   ► my hands are often getting wet and dry, you know,

00:05:49 ◼   ► in cycles as I wash dishes or clean counters or whatever.

00:05:52 ◼   ► And then the dog part of my duties,

00:05:53 ◼   ► I mean I'm often putting on gloves,

00:05:55 ◼   ► going outside, taking off gloves when I come,

00:05:57 ◼   ► like a lot of that.

00:05:57 ◼   ► So like my hands just get destroyed in the winter.

00:06:00 ◼   ► But I just, I don't have a good solution here.

00:06:02 ◼   ► And humidifiers don't, humidifiers seem to be more

00:06:06 ◼   ► for other forms of comfort and for the happiness

00:06:09 ◼   ► of the plants in the house.

00:06:11 ◼   ► I'm not entirely sure humidifiers are doing much for myself.

00:06:13 ◼   ► - Humidifiers will help probably your sinuses

00:06:16 ◼   ► and like your breathing, 'cause you're breathing that in,

00:06:18 ◼   ► moisturizer hopefully you're not breathing it in but yeah for your skin

00:06:21 ◼   ► moisturize this is like my annual reminder like nobody understands

00:06:26 ◼   ► humidifiers really well I mean our listeners do but like you know regular

00:06:29 ◼   ► people out in the world they're like yeah I just you know I put a pot of

00:06:33 ◼   ► water on the radiator and that's enough for my whole house all day and I'm like

00:06:36 ◼   ► I'm evaporating six gallons a day into my house with my evaporative humidifiers

00:06:41 ◼   ► and that that raises the humidity like 15% like you're you're one pot of water

00:06:45 ◼   ► on the radiator is not doing anything. Let me tell you though, if you are going to go outside on a

00:06:51 ◼   ► dog walk and it's going to be cold, boy do I have an answer for you on what you can do to keep

00:06:57 ◼   ► yourself warm. John, can you tell me about this? The chicken hat. The chicken hat is back. Did you

00:07:02 ◼   ► miss out on the chicken hat before? Are you disappointed that you didn't get one? Are you

00:07:05 ◼   ► still wanting a chicken hat? Well, I mean, so here's the news. You too could you could miss out

00:07:11 ◼   ► out on the chicken hat again.

00:07:13 ◼   ► You're right.

00:07:14 ◼   ► Listen, this is on us.

00:07:16 ◼   ► We're bad at estimating how many chicken hats we need to order.

00:07:20 ◼   ► And it's because we have to pay for these up front.

00:07:23 ◼   ► No, it's because there's not a lot of data

00:07:26 ◼   ► to base our decision on on how many chicken

00:07:28 ◼   ► hats we should order.

00:07:30 ◼   ► Yeah, and so we have to buy them all up front.

00:07:32 ◼   ► So we're like, oh, it's expensive.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And you've got to outlay this money.

00:07:34 ◼   ► And what if we buy all these chicken hats

00:07:35 ◼   ► and nobody wants them?

00:07:36 ◼   ► Then we're just stuck with it.

00:07:37 ◼   ► So we kept ordering them in increasingly large amounts.

00:07:40 ◼   ► and then our sale ended, right?

00:07:42 ◼   ► And we told people, like, we're gonna try to get more

00:07:44 ◼   ► as soon as we can.

00:07:46 ◼   ► So we got some more chicken hats.

00:07:48 ◼   ► This is not part of one of our regular sales,

00:07:50 ◼   ► so there's no member-only discount code.

00:07:52 ◼   ► Like, it's not, this is just a one-off special thing.

00:07:54 ◼   ► 'Cause we felt bad, 'cause like,

00:07:55 ◼   ► even after we sold through all our chicken hats,

00:07:57 ◼   ► more people wanted them.

00:07:58 ◼   ► So we ordered a bunch more

00:07:59 ◼   ► that we thought would satisfy the demand

00:08:01 ◼   ► of all the people who signed up and said,

00:08:03 ◼   ► "Hey, tell me when the chicken,

00:08:04 ◼   ► "tell me when the hat is back so I can order it."

00:08:06 ◼   ► We may or may not have done that,

00:08:08 ◼   ► because I put them on sale earlier today

00:08:11 ◼   ► and I posted about the hats to Mastodon.

00:08:14 ◼   ► I posted to Mastodon first

00:08:15 ◼   ► and I gave those people first crack at it.

00:08:17 ◼   ► So you're welcome if you're following me at Mastodon.

00:08:19 ◼   ► And then I posted on Twitter.

00:08:21 ◼   ► Anyway, I feel like we've already sold through half

00:08:23 ◼   ► of the hats and this episode is just being recorded now.

00:08:26 ◼   ► So maybe by the time you hear this, they're not there.

00:08:28 ◼   ► But if you go to atp.fm/store,

00:08:31 ◼   ► you may be able to get a chicken hat

00:08:33 ◼   ► and you may actually be able to get it

00:08:34 ◼   ► in time for Christmas as well

00:08:35 ◼   ► because these ship immediately,

00:08:37 ◼   ► There's no waiting or anything.

00:08:39 ◼   ► And if you live in the US, you could probably

00:08:40 ◼   ► get one in time for Christmas if you order,

00:08:42 ◼   ► at the time you hear this.

00:08:43 ◼   ► Or you could get there and find out they're sold out again,

00:08:45 ◼   ► in which case we're sorry.

00:08:46 ◼   ► But obviously we have no idea what we're doing

00:08:48 ◼   ► with these chicken hats.

00:08:49 ◼   ► Is there infinite demand for chicken hats?

00:08:50 ◼   ► Should I buy one for every person in the world?

00:08:52 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:08:53 ◼   ► But anyway, this is probably it for the chicken hats

00:08:56 ◼   ► for this year, because we will have put them

00:08:58 ◼   ► on enough heads for the winter.

00:09:00 ◼   ► This is the winter.

00:09:01 ◼   ► That's why we're doing this now.

00:09:02 ◼   ► It's a one-off winter sale.

00:09:03 ◼   ► So go to atb.fm/store.

00:09:06 ◼   ► If you want a chicken hat, there may be one available.

00:09:08 ◼   ► And also we have like our leftover mugs.

00:09:10 ◼   ► Like we always keep a bunch of mugs in reserve

00:09:13 ◼   ► for ones that like break and transport or whatever.

00:09:15 ◼   ► And now that all the mugs have gone out to everybody

00:09:17 ◼   ► and we've replaced any of the broke or whatever.

00:09:19 ◼   ► Now we have like the reserve available for sale.

00:09:22 ◼   ► So we do have a few ATP mugs hanging around as well.

00:09:26 ◼   ► I think they will also ship as soon as you order one.

00:09:28 ◼   ► So if you want to order a mug

00:09:30 ◼   ► and you didn't get one before, take a look now.

00:09:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can't stress enough.

00:09:34 ◼   ► I know I say this every time.

00:09:35 ◼   ► I know I do, but for real,

00:09:38 ◼   ► these hats are going like hotcakes,

00:09:40 ◼   ► which selfishly is great.

00:09:41 ◼   ► - Don't get too strong with the speech

00:09:42 ◼   ► because it could be by the time this thing is posted,

00:09:45 ◼   ► they'll all be gone already,

00:09:45 ◼   ► and I'll feel bad if that happens,

00:09:47 ◼   ► but that's why you should follow us on Mastodon or Twitter.

00:09:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, and really act now

00:09:52 ◼   ► because I know that's such a cliche,

00:09:54 ◼   ► but for real, act now because I bet you

00:09:57 ◼   ► there's a 50/50 shot that by the time you hear these words,

00:10:00 ◼   ► they will already be gone.

00:10:03 ◼   ► In fact, there's even a chance

00:10:04 ◼   ► that Marco will have to edit this very speech

00:10:07 ◼   ► out of the show because by the time he goes to publish it,

00:10:10 ◼   ► they may be gone.

00:10:11 ◼   ► So ATP.fm/store, please and thank you.

00:10:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, for the bootleg people, someone in the chatroom

00:10:16 ◼   ► just said that they, so they ordered a chicken hat last time

00:10:19 ◼   ► and they like it and they're thinking

00:10:20 ◼   ► of ordering a second one.

00:10:21 ◼   ► I endorse this behavior as a person

00:10:22 ◼   ► who loves to have backups, but really,

00:10:24 ◼   ► like this is what you're up against.

00:10:25 ◼   ► People who already have a chicken hat are like,

00:10:27 ◼   ► "Hmm, maybe I should get a second one."

00:10:29 ◼   ► (sighs)

00:10:30 ◼   ► Anyway, they're there or probably gonna be there.

00:10:33 ◼   ► - I'll tell you what, when I first got mine,

00:10:36 ◼   ► like whatever it was, three or four weeks ago,

00:10:38 ◼   ► it wasn't that cold yet, and I put it on,

00:10:40 ◼   ► I'm like, oh my God, this is ridiculously hot.

00:10:42 ◼   ► And I couldn't wear it, it was too hot.

00:10:44 ◼   ► Now, as I'm pulling it over,

00:10:47 ◼   ► as I'm pulling it with my dry cracked hands,

00:10:50 ◼   ► over my ears for my morning dog walks,

00:10:53 ◼   ► and it's 28 degrees, now,

00:10:55 ◼   ► that is an appropriately warm hat for what I am doing,

00:11:00 ◼   ► and I'm very thankful for it.

00:11:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, one other thing to scare people away

00:11:04 ◼   ► from the chicken hat, we're also getting a lot of people

00:11:05 ◼   ► who got the chicken hat to say,

00:11:07 ◼   ► it doesn't fit me, my head's too big.

00:11:09 ◼   ► As I said when we originally talked about this,

00:11:11 ◼   ► this hat is modeled on my hat down to the millimeter.

00:11:15 ◼   ► If you lay this hat on top of my original hat,

00:11:17 ◼   ► they are exactly the same in every single dimension.

00:11:20 ◼   ► And my original hat was from Eastern Mountain Sports,

00:11:23 ◼   ► and it was listed as one size fits all.

00:11:25 ◼   ► And like I said when we talked about the hat originally,

00:11:28 ◼   ► one size obviously doesn't fit all,

00:11:30 ◼   ► but there was no sizing on this hat.

00:11:31 ◼   ► There was no small, medium, or large.

00:11:33 ◼   ► I have the only size this hat was ever made in,

00:11:36 ◼   ► which is one size fits all.

00:11:37 ◼   ► Is this one size fits all gonna fit your head?

00:11:39 ◼   ► Maybe.

00:11:40 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know.

00:11:41 ◼   ► Like it is what it is.

00:11:43 ◼   ► So if you get this hat and it's too small,

00:11:45 ◼   ► I don't know, give it to someone with a smaller head,

00:11:47 ◼   ► sell it to someone.

00:11:48 ◼   ► There's some people reselling their hats on Twitter saying,

00:11:50 ◼   ► "Hey, I got the hat and I like it fine,

00:11:52 ◼   ► "but my head's too big for it.

00:11:53 ◼   ► "So if you want it, you can try it."

00:11:54 ◼   ► I think that this one is actually looser

00:11:58 ◼   ► And it accommodates a larger head than my original,

00:12:02 ◼   ► 'cause my original has stiffened with time

00:12:05 ◼   ► and is thicker than this one.

00:12:08 ◼   ► Whereas this one is much, much looser.

00:12:09 ◼   ► So this one accommodates larger heads than the original,

00:12:11 ◼   ► even though in every dimension it is the same.

00:12:14 ◼   ► So be aware, you may get a hat

00:12:16 ◼   ► that doesn't fit on your head,

00:12:17 ◼   ► in which case just give it to someone with a smaller head.

00:12:20 ◼   ► - Also, I would like to make a request to Jon.

00:12:22 ◼   ► He genuinely does not know what I'm about to say.

00:12:24 ◼   ► So I received my chicken hat just a couple of days back.

00:12:27 ◼   ► I went on a walk around the neighborhood,

00:12:29 ◼   ► actually it was a dog walk in this particular case,

00:12:31 ◼   ► I went on a walk around the neighborhood

00:12:32 ◼   ► and it is quite brisk by Virginian standards today,

00:12:35 ◼   ► I think it was like mid 30s or something like that.

00:12:37 ◼   ► And I put my chicken hat on

00:12:39 ◼   ► and I was quite happy to have it.

00:12:41 ◼   ► It was absurdly warm, it genuinely was.

00:12:44 ◼   ► I'm not really sure why or how, but it was freaking warm.

00:12:47 ◼   ► However-- - The power of fleece.

00:12:49 ◼   ► - Right?

00:12:50 ◼   ► Either way, I remember us going back and forth

00:12:54 ◼   ► about the correct placement of the ATP logo

00:12:56 ◼   ► and which side is supposed to be where,

00:12:58 ◼   ► and that everyone is doing it wrong,

00:13:00 ◼   ► and I think I'm doing it wrong.

00:13:01 ◼   ► So can we have an official FAQ page,

00:13:04 ◼   ► or can you repost somewhere publicly

00:13:07 ◼   ► the correct place to put the chicken hat?

00:13:10 ◼   ► - I mean, I don't want to be too prescriptive,

00:13:11 ◼   ► because honestly, you wear it however the heck you want,

00:13:13 ◼   ► but the way it's supposed to be worn is seam in the back.

00:13:15 ◼   ► Like, that's true of most clothing.

00:13:16 ◼   ► If clothing has a seam, very often it goes in the back,

00:13:19 ◼   ► like with a hat, right?

00:13:19 ◼   ► So I know it's confusing,

00:13:21 ◼   ► 'cause people want the logo to be in the front,

00:13:22 ◼   ► so you can see it, but it's not.

00:13:24 ◼   ► The logo is kind of towards the back,

00:13:25 ◼   ► the seam goes in the back.

00:13:26 ◼   ► But if you wanna wear it with the seam in the front,

00:13:28 ◼   ► go for it.

00:13:28 ◼   ► I'm just saying if you're asking the question

00:13:30 ◼   ► of how is it supposed to be done,

00:13:30 ◼   ► it's the seam in the back.

00:13:32 ◼   ► - And for whatever it's worth,

00:13:33 ◼   ► I have a fish beanie hat that has a little fish tag on it.

00:13:37 ◼   ► And that is also in the same location

00:13:40 ◼   ► near the seam in the back.

00:13:41 ◼   ► And if you know anything about fish,

00:13:43 ◼   ► you know that they know what they're talking about

00:13:45 ◼   ► with fashion.

00:13:45 ◼   ► - I'm glad you made that joke before I had to.

00:13:49 ◼   ► No, but you had posted a profile view at some point,

00:13:52 ◼   ► and I would like that profile view of you, John,

00:13:55 ◼   ► to live permanently somewhere.

00:13:57 ◼   ► - But the problem, I mean, it does.

00:13:58 ◼   ► It's on the Studio Neat page,

00:13:59 ◼   ► but the problem is that's my original hat,

00:14:01 ◼   ► not the ATP one.

00:14:02 ◼   ► - See, you gotta do a new one, please, and thank you.

00:14:04 ◼   ► - Well, why don't you model it?

00:14:05 ◼   ► You've got the hat, put it on the seam in the back.

00:14:06 ◼   ► - Because I'm doing it wrong!

00:14:07 ◼   ► Because I'm doing it wrong!

00:14:08 ◼   ► - Well, I've told you how to do it now.

00:14:09 ◼   ► I've told you how to do it now.

00:14:10 ◼   ► So get Aaron to take a picture of you,

00:14:12 ◼   ► like in a three-quarters view,

00:14:14 ◼   ► showing the seam in the back, and you can be the model.

00:14:16 ◼   ► - Super.

00:14:17 ◼   ► A lot of people have very justifiably asked,

00:14:19 ◼   ► with regard to merchandise, like the chicken hat,

00:14:21 ◼   ► "Where do I put the discount code?

00:14:23 ◼   ► "Why isn't it working?"

00:14:24 ◼   ► Or, "How can I get it?"

00:14:25 ◼   ► We don't do discount codes for the anytime sales

00:14:28 ◼   ► like this one.

00:14:29 ◼   ► We only do them for the time limited sales.

00:14:32 ◼   ► Completely reasonable question.

00:14:33 ◼   ► I meant to talk about this a minute ago.

00:14:35 ◼   ► I apologize, I completely forgot.

00:14:36 ◼   ► Completely reasonable question,

00:14:38 ◼   ► but we only do the discount codes for--

00:14:41 ◼   ► - You need a 28 character backup code for your hat.

00:14:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:14:44 ◼   ► You need to send us your 28 character backup code

00:14:46 ◼   ► and your Apple ID and then you can get a discount.

00:14:49 ◼   ► No, no.

00:14:50 ◼   ► Only for the time limited stuff.

00:14:51 ◼   ► So no discounts on this, I am sorry about that.

00:14:53 ◼   ► I don't think we're gonna do another time limited sale

00:14:55 ◼   ► until probably spring time,

00:14:57 ◼   ► but no discounts on these ones, our apologies.

00:15:02 ◼   ► Let's do some follow up.

00:15:03 ◼   ► Hey, tell me about recovery keys and backup contacts, please.

00:15:07 ◼   ► This is in the context of end-to-end encryption.

00:15:09 ◼   ► What is it, advanced data protection?

00:15:11 ◼   ► Do I have that right?

00:15:12 ◼   ► So please tell me more about this.

00:15:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is a question last time

00:15:15 ◼   ► with the whole 28-character code.

00:15:16 ◼   ► From the Apple document, they say,

00:15:18 ◼   ► creating a recovery key, this 28-character code,

00:15:20 ◼   ► turns off account recovery.

00:15:22 ◼   ► And it says account recovery is a process

00:15:23 ◼   ► that would otherwise help you get back your Apple ID

00:15:25 ◼   ► when you don't have enough information

00:15:26 ◼   ► to reset your password.

00:15:27 ◼   ► So there was the open question of, okay,

00:15:29 ◼   ► so they're giving you all these warnings about it

00:15:30 ◼   ► when you generate 28 character code,

00:15:32 ◼   ► and they say it turns off account recovery,

00:15:34 ◼   ► but what is account recovery?

00:15:35 ◼   ► And then they give that vague definition.

00:15:37 ◼   ► So Oliver Ames wrote in to say,

00:15:38 ◼   ► I have recovery key and three recovery contacts enabled

00:15:41 ◼   ► on my iCloud account.

00:15:42 ◼   ► I can't see any indication that a recovery key

00:15:44 ◼   ► disables these three recovery contacts.

00:15:45 ◼   ► The two seem to coexist.

00:15:47 ◼   ► So I think I have three methods

00:15:48 ◼   ► of recovering an encrypted key.

00:15:49 ◼   ► So that was the question last time.

00:15:51 ◼   ► Can you have backup contacts

00:15:52 ◼   ► and also have this 28 character recovery key?

00:15:54 ◼   ► And apparently the answer is yes,

00:15:56 ◼   ► or at least you can if you already had them.

00:15:58 ◼   ► I guess account recovery does not encompass

00:16:02 ◼   ► having backup contacts.

00:16:03 ◼   ► I guess it is a different thing.

00:16:05 ◼   ► I haven't actually gone through the process

00:16:08 ◼   ► and I'm assuming none of us have at this point.

00:16:10 ◼   ► I'm setting it up, but I believe it prompts you

00:16:12 ◼   ► and it says, "Hey, you're about to turn this thing on.

00:16:15 ◼   ► You should do one of these things."

00:16:16 ◼   ► And the choices are generate this 28 character code

00:16:19 ◼   ► and designate people to be your backup person for you

00:16:23 ◼   ► if you lose all your stuff.

00:16:25 ◼   ► And apparently you can do both.

00:16:27 ◼   ► - All right, Ezekiel Ellyn was one of many people

00:16:30 ◼   ► to write in with some information with regard

00:16:32 ◼   ► to getting a refund and how you can do that

00:16:37 ◼   ► and be explicit about what you want to refund on.

00:16:39 ◼   ► The context for this was, one of you,

00:16:41 ◼   ► was it Marco buying a bunch of stuff or was it John?

00:16:43 ◼   ► I thought it was John and then I could swear it was Marco.

00:16:45 ◼   ► It's always John.

00:16:47 ◼   ► Anyways, it was John looking at,

00:16:49 ◼   ► oh, it was for the face thing, wasn't it?

00:16:52 ◼   ► - The AI image generator thing,

00:16:55 ◼   ► he said I was messing with you.

00:16:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, okay, so anyways,

00:16:57 ◼   ► so we were, John was asking, you know,

00:16:59 ◼   ► how do I know what I'm requesting a refund on

00:17:01 ◼   ► and blah, blah, blah?

00:17:02 ◼   ► I had said, oh, I'm pretty sure you can do that

00:17:05 ◼   ► in StoreKit too, you can,

00:17:07 ◼   ► so I'll put a link to a tech talk that Apple did.

00:17:09 ◼   ► So anyway, on this video, they talk about exactly

00:17:11 ◼   ► how you can show like the,

00:17:13 ◼   ► a sheet that I believe is provided by the system,

00:17:15 ◼   ► but it lets you ask for a refund on a particular item,

00:17:17 ◼   ► asks you how or what the problem is, et cetera.

00:17:21 ◼   ► Continuing with what Ezekiel was telling us,

00:17:24 ◼   ► you can look at any of your order receipts

00:17:26 ◼   ► and there's a report a problem link

00:17:28 ◼   ► at the kind of the bottom of the order.

00:17:30 ◼   ► And there's also reportaproblem.apple.com.

00:17:33 ◼   ► And on the website, it shows you all of your purchases

00:17:38 ◼   ► ordered by date and grouped by order number.

00:17:39 ◼   ► You can choose request a refund and then see a list

00:17:41 ◼   ► of options including in-app purchase not received.

00:17:43 ◼   ► After selecting it, you can click in and out purchase

00:17:45 ◼   ► and hit submit.

00:17:47 ◼   ► And so there is a list that you were seeking, John,

00:17:50 ◼   ► we just didn't know where to get it.

00:17:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, the secret, the key for me is that I was looking

00:17:54 ◼   ► at these order receipts saying,

00:17:55 ◼   ► why is there no place for me to get refund?

00:17:56 ◼   ► And also, why can I not see a list of my transactions

00:17:59 ◼   ► like in the app?

00:18:00 ◼   ► On the receipt, the secret is look for report a problem,

00:18:03 ◼   ► which I don't know, I just was glancing over that of like,

00:18:07 ◼   ► oh, I don't really have a problem, I just want to refund.

00:18:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, I would have done the same.

00:18:10 ◼   ► - But anyway, that encompasses it.

00:18:12 ◼   ► And the website, reportaproblem.apple.com,

00:18:15 ◼   ► is where you can request a refund.

00:18:16 ◼   ► The UI is a little bit weird,

00:18:17 ◼   ► but that is the place where you can do it.

00:18:19 ◼   ► And there you actually do see your transactions.

00:18:20 ◼   ► There's actually many places

00:18:21 ◼   ► where you can see these transactions,

00:18:22 ◼   ► including on your devices.

00:18:24 ◼   ► It's just not straightforward to know where they are,

00:18:27 ◼   ► as anyone who's ever gone digging for something in settings

00:18:29 ◼   ► or whatever it is.

00:18:29 ◼   ► So this stuff is available.

00:18:31 ◼   ► And thanks to people pointing this out,

00:18:33 ◼   ► I did actually request a refund for that one thing

00:18:36 ◼   ► that didn't go through, and I got it back.

00:18:39 ◼   ► And same thing with the store kit two thing.

00:18:40 ◼   ► Like that's presenting a UI, but in the end,

00:18:43 ◼   ► you were still asking Apple for a refund.

00:18:45 ◼   ► The developer cannot grant or not grant you the refund.

00:18:48 ◼   ► So if you ask for a refund from Apple and Apple says no,

00:18:50 ◼   ► because like you're asking for a refund

00:18:52 ◼   ► on like some subscription that you've, you know,

00:18:54 ◼   ► used up all but one day of, and you want a refund on it,

00:18:56 ◼   ► maybe Apple would say no or something.

00:18:58 ◼   ► You can't, like the developer isn't doing that, it's Apple.

00:19:01 ◼   ► The good news is that Apple pretty much gives you

00:19:03 ◼   ► any refund you ask for, as long as it is reasonable.

00:19:05 ◼   ► So, you know, you are at Apple's mercy,

00:19:08 ◼   ► but they are merciful.

00:19:10 ◼   ► - That is true, I'm not arguing with what you're saying.

00:19:12 ◼   ► However, in that video that I was talking about earlier,

00:19:14 ◼   ► one of the things they say is when you do

00:19:16 ◼   ► the in-app refund dance, you can provide Apple

00:19:20 ◼   ► with some information about what the user has done.

00:19:23 ◼   ► And this is particularly in the context

00:19:26 ◼   ► of consumable in-app purchases.

00:19:27 ◼   ► So you buy a packet of credits, if you will,

00:19:31 ◼   ► that you're using over time.

00:19:33 ◼   ► Actually, I guess like this give me five avatars thing.

00:19:38 ◼   ► Well, anyways, what you can do is you can provide--as a developer, you can provide Apple

00:19:43 ◼   ► with, "Oh, they've used two of their six credits," or what have you, and then Apple puts that

00:19:48 ◼   ► in their little algorithm, their black box that decides whether or not you will actually

00:19:53 ◼   ► get the refund. I agree with you. I haven't heard of--from users or even the handful of

00:19:59 ◼   ► times I've done it myself. I haven't heard anyone say that they've been denied, but there

00:20:02 ◼   ► is some affordance in the flow, in the API, to tell Apple exactly what it is that the

00:20:10 ◼   ► user has done.

00:20:11 ◼   ► And in my case, remember, I made an in-app purchase and the app just failed to give me

00:20:15 ◼   ► anything for it.

00:20:17 ◼   ► But there would be no record of that and there's no way Apple has any information other than

00:20:21 ◼   ► from as far as they can tell, I did an in-app purchase and then I just like regretted it

00:20:24 ◼   ► and asked for my money back, right?

00:20:26 ◼   ► They'd have no way to verify my story that, "Hey, I did it and I got nothing for it,"

00:20:30 ◼   ► which is true.

00:20:31 ◼   ► nothing for it. It disappeared into the app, but they just gave me the refund anyway.

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00:22:37 ◼   ► So we have a definitive answer on the Sharrow. This was brought to my attention from Ilya

00:22:41 ◼   ► Berman. I don't like to be that guy in Revels when your friends are wrong and just gets

00:22:47 ◼   ► excited when your friends are wrong. But when you're almost never wrong, like John Siracusa,

00:22:50 ◼   ► I can't help but get a little excited. So here I am getting more than a little excited

00:22:54 ◼   ► that apparently the sharrow is for real for real a real thing.

00:22:57 ◼   ► So Ilya points out, WWDC 2017, Essential Design Principles.

00:23:01 ◼   ► About 25 minutes in, the presenter

00:23:04 ◼   ► introduces the box with an arrow coming out of it.

00:23:06 ◼   ► And the presenter says the following.

00:23:08 ◼   ► The glyph that we use to represent

00:23:10 ◼   ► the concept of an action is an arrow that points up and away

00:23:14 ◼   ► from a box.

00:23:16 ◼   ► Because the most common action associated with this glyph

00:23:19 ◼   ► is share, we affectionately call this a share-o.

00:23:23 ◼   ► - Yes. (laughs)

00:23:26 ◼   ► 2017.

00:23:27 ◼   ► - It is a real thing.

00:23:30 ◼   ► - Right, but here's the question.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Have they been able to make share-o happen since 2017?

00:23:35 ◼   ► I'm gonna say since none of us remembered this session,

00:23:39 ◼   ► I don't think it's really happening.

00:23:41 ◼   ► Anyway, I talked about this a lot with Merlin

00:23:43 ◼   ► on the rectiffs that we recorded

00:23:45 ◼   ► that will be out sometime in the future,

00:23:47 ◼   ► so you can hear more about it.

00:23:47 ◼   ► But yeah, lots of people have used inside of Apple

00:23:52 ◼   ► in Apple retail, this shortening of the thing.

00:23:57 ◼   ► But I feel like it hasn't really caught on.

00:23:59 ◼   ► I mean, that's why we had all these questions about it.

00:24:01 ◼   ► That's why we ended up having two episodes of fun

00:24:03 ◼   ► because it wasn't like, oh yeah, of course,

00:24:04 ◼   ► Sharrow, everyone calls it that.

00:24:06 ◼   ► And I'm kind of surprised that given these people

00:24:07 ◼   ► are inside Apple talking about design,

00:24:09 ◼   ► that I can't go into SF Symbols and type Sharrow.

00:24:11 ◼   ► I went and did that.

00:24:12 ◼   ► I mean, I made the joke last episode,

00:24:13 ◼   ► but I'm like, but if they call it that,

00:24:15 ◼   ► it's gotta be in like the synonyms.

00:24:17 ◼   ► No, it's not. It's called like upward facing box arrow or some whatever it's called

00:24:21 ◼   ► So I mean even if Apple puts it as the thing in SF symbols, I feel like making it catch on in the wire world

00:24:27 ◼   ► You know, I again I think us talking about it may actually be pushing into that direction much to my chagrin

00:24:33 ◼   ► So we should just I

00:24:35 ◼   ► Will concede as much as I love giving you a hard time

00:24:39 ◼   ► I will concede that the first time I remember having heard this was when Merlin brought it up on rectus

00:24:44 ◼   ► What like a month or two ago or something like that?

00:24:46 ◼   ► I don't remember having heard Sharrow before then.

00:24:48 ◼   ► - But we all probably did,

00:24:49 ◼   ► considering this is from 2017. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:51 ◼   ► No, I agree. - It just didn't stick

00:24:52 ◼   ► because it's dumb.

00:24:53 ◼   ► - It didn't stick, I'll leave it at that.

00:24:55 ◼   ► All right, so tell me about enabling

00:24:58 ◼   ► the aforementioned advanced data protection.

00:25:00 ◼   ► If you happen to really like Apple products.

00:25:02 ◼   ► - This is a joke I made last episode.

00:25:04 ◼   ► It's like, oh, you know, you would think that

00:25:06 ◼   ► people who are into Apple and are Apple enthusiasts,

00:25:09 ◼   ► they're gonna turn on advanced data protection right away,

00:25:11 ◼   ► and the requirement that all the devices be updated

00:25:14 ◼   ► to the latest OS isn't going to be a big deal because all these Apple enthusiasts and these

00:25:18 ◼   ► tech nerds, they are updating their devices all the time.

00:25:21 ◼   ► They want to be on the latest and greatest version of everything.

00:25:23 ◼   ► But the reality is, if you are an actual Apple nerd, what you end up accumulating is tons

00:25:28 ◼   ► and tons of older devices that you just refuse to get rid of, even though you should sell

00:25:31 ◼   ► them or give them away because you're using them as test devices or you just want to have

00:25:35 ◼   ► them or whatever.

00:25:36 ◼   ► And so here is Quinn Nelson posting a video showing his experience of trying to turn it

00:25:42 ◼   ► on and it shows you that screen that says, "Oh, you want to turn on advanced data protection?

00:25:45 ◼   ► Well, you got to have the latest version of all the OSes, so here's a list of the devices

00:25:49 ◼   ► you're going to need to update."

00:25:50 ◼   ► And he scrolls for like two pages.

00:25:51 ◼   ► We all have a lot of devices, devices that you've forgotten about that are not running

00:25:58 ◼   ► the latest OS.

00:25:59 ◼   ► They may be turned off, asleep in a drawer somewhere, and now you have to either fish

00:26:02 ◼   ► them out or go to the web page and like eject them from your Apple ID.

00:26:07 ◼   ► Yeah, that's not great.

00:26:09 ◼   ► I haven't done this yet.

00:26:10 ◼   ► we established earlier that none of us have.

00:26:11 ◼   ► But I do plan to, but if it requires everything

00:26:14 ◼   ► on the latest and greatest, it might take a minute.

00:26:16 ◼   ► - I mean, it's not, it's unavoidable.

00:26:17 ◼   ► There's a good reason for them doing that.

00:26:19 ◼   ► They're not doing it to be mean.

00:26:20 ◼   ► The whole point is, this is a security thing,

00:26:21 ◼   ► and if you leave the old ones on the old version,

00:26:23 ◼   ► that's a security leak, like you are not protected

00:26:26 ◼   ► unless you do this.

00:26:27 ◼   ► And it was the same thing with setting backup contacts,

00:26:29 ◼   ► that you had to update everything.

00:26:30 ◼   ► You know, time heals this.

00:26:32 ◼   ► Eventually, you will update all your things.

00:26:34 ◼   ► Eventually, you'll get annoyed enough

00:26:35 ◼   ► that you'll dig them out of drawers

00:26:36 ◼   ► or remove them from your app ID.

00:26:37 ◼   ► So it's fine, it's just funny.

00:26:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, agreed.

00:26:41 ◼   ► All right, it turns out that you can indeed quit the Finder.

00:26:44 ◼   ► So John Wen writes in episode 512 of ATP,

00:26:49 ◼   ► you were asked about a quit menu item for the Finder.

00:26:51 ◼   ► As expected, it's a default's right to the rescue.

00:26:54 ◼   ► In terminal, enter, and we'll put this in the show notes,

00:26:56 ◼   ► default's right, com.apple.finder,

00:26:58 ◼   ► quit menu item, bool true.

00:27:00 ◼   ► And then just restart the Finder

00:27:02 ◼   ► and suddenly you'll have a quit menu item, allegedly.

00:27:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, it behaves a little bit weirdly.

00:27:06 ◼   ► I mean, it's not as much fun as doing it in ResEdit for sure,

00:27:09 ◼   ► but, and I think I put this a lot

00:27:11 ◼   ► on my Mac OS X reviews back in the day,

00:27:13 ◼   ► but I've long since forgotten about it.

00:27:14 ◼   ► But when you do quit finder through that menu item,

00:27:17 ◼   ► it can behave a little bit strangely in that

00:27:21 ◼   ► sometimes it will hang, or sometimes it will hang

00:27:24 ◼   ► when it's trying to relaunch itself,

00:27:26 ◼   ► or sometimes it won't relaunch itself

00:27:28 ◼   ► and you'll have to kill it, and then it,

00:27:30 ◼   ► like I got it to a state where clicking on it in the dock

00:27:33 ◼   ► wouldn't relaunch it, so instead I had to go to the terminal,

00:27:35 ◼   ► which of course was already open,

00:27:37 ◼   ► and type the open command on open space dot

00:27:40 ◼   ► to open the directory and that will trigger

00:27:42 ◼   ► the Finder to open.

00:27:43 ◼   ► Just needless to say, this is not a supported configuration

00:27:47 ◼   ► from Apple's perspective, but the Finder team

00:27:49 ◼   ► did put the quit menu item there

00:27:51 ◼   ► and maybe it will work better for you than it worked for me.

00:27:53 ◼   ► - Sure enough.

00:27:54 ◼   ► Hey, Ventura 13.1 is out.

00:27:57 ◼   ► It is not in beta, it is for real for real.

00:27:59 ◼   ► In fact, I upgraded earlier today because I'm a dummy

00:28:02 ◼   ► and I do it on the day I record.

00:28:03 ◼   ► I don't know why I do this every time, but I always do.

00:28:05 ◼   ► But it worked, so it's okay.

00:28:07 ◼   ► But the point is-- - Why, why?

00:28:09 ◼   ► - Because of a dollar.

00:28:10 ◼   ► - I just today installed Ventura regular,

00:28:13 ◼   ► just because 13.1 came out.

00:28:14 ◼   ► - That's worse, that's worse than what Casey did.

00:28:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's aggressive.

00:28:18 ◼   ► - 'Cause you're going to, anyway,

00:28:19 ◼   ► I did it because I wanted to try the Freeform app,

00:28:22 ◼   ► which we'll talk about in a little bit.

00:28:23 ◼   ► But yeah, I updated, I got there yesterday.

00:28:25 ◼   ► - Oh, that's true, I forgot that it was on the Mac.

00:28:27 ◼   ► I was, we will talk about this, but I went--

00:28:30 ◼   ► - I forgot that it was any place but the Mac.

00:28:32 ◼   ► - 'Cause I wanted to try it on iPad

00:28:34 ◼   ► with my Apple Pencil and all that.

00:28:35 ◼   ► I completely forgot it was on the Mac.

00:28:37 ◼   ► Anyway, so yeah, so 13.1 brings back a relatively well hidden,

00:28:42 ◼   ► but there, network locations GUI, which is pretty cool.

00:28:46 ◼   ► I know a lot of people were sad and upset about that,

00:28:48 ◼   ► but it's there now.

00:28:49 ◼   ► And where it is, you go to System Settings,

00:28:51 ◼   ► you go to Network in the sidebar,

00:28:53 ◼   ► and these are all the way down to the bottom,

00:28:55 ◼   ► and there'll be a mysterious little thing that

00:28:56 ◼   ► looks like a button with three dots and a V on it.

00:28:59 ◼   ► And that will spawn a menu, and then

00:29:01 ◼   ► at the bottom of that menu, it will spawn another menu,

00:29:03 ◼   ► and at the bottom of that menu, you

00:29:05 ◼   ► can edit your network locations.

00:29:06 ◼   ► It's a fairly hilarious UI, but at least it's back.

00:29:09 ◼   ► - Indeed.

00:29:11 ◼   ► So Apple Music Sing isn't just for Atmos stuff.

00:29:14 ◼   ► And this is sent to us via Bill Klein.

00:29:17 ◼   ► Bill writes, "You mentioned the new Apple Music Sing feature

00:29:20 ◼   ► this week," I think that was a week or two ago,

00:29:21 ◼   ► "and John posited that this is not machine learning related,

00:29:24 ◼   ► but instead using Atmos encoded music objects

00:29:26 ◼   ► to strip out the vocals.

00:29:28 ◼   ► However, in my testing of this feature,

00:29:29 ◼   ► I found many tracks that do not have Atmos versions

00:29:33 ◼   ► on the service that function with this feature.

00:29:35 ◼   ► For example, the band Goose's last two albums, Drip Field and Shenanigans Nightclub,

00:29:39 ◼   ► it's a pretty good name for an album, do not have Atmos versions on Apple Music.

00:29:42 ◼   ► But if you try playing this track, which will link, or any other track on those

00:29:46 ◼   ► records on 16.2, you will get the microphone button to strip the vocals.

00:29:51 ◼   ► This fact, plus the compatibility list for this feature, which cuts off any devices

00:29:54 ◼   ► with an A12 or earlier, leads me, says Bill, to believe that this is in fact ML

00:29:59 ◼   ► powered and relies on the more powerful neural engine in the A13 and later chips.

00:30:03 ◼   ► Can we just take a minute to appreciate that a jam band

00:30:08 ◼   ► that I happen to be listening to recently,

00:30:12 ◼   ► somebody wrote in about that, like referencing music,

00:30:15 ◼   ► like that I'm not the only person listening

00:30:18 ◼   ► to the band Goose, which by the way--

00:30:19 ◼   ► - I was gonna say which one is the jam band, it's Goose?

00:30:22 ◼   ► - Goose, yeah. - Okay, sure.

00:30:24 ◼   ► - They just did a tour with Traina Stasio,

00:30:26 ◼   ► like kinda together as a whole thing.

00:30:28 ◼   ► And it's a fantastic tour, both the tab side of it

00:30:31 ◼   ► and the Goose side of it.

00:30:32 ◼   ► Anyway, oh my god, they're so good.

00:30:34 ◼   ► Like, if fish is like kind of in your real house,

00:30:38 ◼   ► but like you want something that's a little bit more

00:30:41 ◼   ► mass market palatable and maybe a little more like,

00:30:44 ◼   ► you know, a more modern take on something similar,

00:30:48 ◼   ► you should listen to Goose.

00:30:49 ◼   ► It's really good.

00:30:50 ◼   ► - So, with all that said, somebody, I think it was John,

00:30:54 ◼   ► put a link in the show notes that I'm assuming

00:30:56 ◼   ► is from someone that worked on all this?

00:30:58 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:30:59 ◼   ► See, the information we got last show about the fact

00:31:01 ◼   ► It wasn't that they were using Atmos, but the idea was that Apple has access to individual

00:31:06 ◼   ► tracks in the same way that they have access to those things to do the Atmos mixes, because

00:31:10 ◼   ► they have to, you know, anyway.

00:31:12 ◼   ► But I think it was from Vitici or somebody was saying like this is not using machine

00:31:16 ◼   ► learning to do it, it's actually they have individual tracks and Atmos was an example

00:31:20 ◼   ► of why Apple had access to that.

00:31:22 ◼   ► But I don't know for certain.

00:31:23 ◼   ► So a lot of people are saying that the reason it's limited to the Apple TV 4K is because

00:31:28 ◼   ► it uses machine learning to do this and we need the A13 or better and that's why you

00:31:31 ◼   ► can't use the older Apple TVs to do it.

00:31:34 ◼   ► But I don't know if this tweet from John Druckmann is definitive because it's someone on the

00:31:39 ◼   ► inside who knows.

00:31:40 ◼   ► But either way, it seems to me like it would be more straightforward to just get the individual

00:31:44 ◼   ► tracks and certainly Apple through its connections in the music industry could get those.

00:31:48 ◼   ► But on the other hand, how many songs could they get them for?

00:31:52 ◼   ► Is this something they've been doing for a year asking all the music labels to get the

00:31:55 ◼   ► individual tracks, or did they just apply ML to it?

00:31:58 ◼   ► It's kind of weird that Apple wouldn't brag about it

00:32:00 ◼   ► if they used ML, like hey, look at this main thing

00:32:02 ◼   ► we're doing, the power of the neural engine, blah, blah, blah

00:32:04 ◼   ► but still a bit of a mystery, but most of the feedback

00:32:08 ◼   ► we got is people saying it's definitely machine learning.

00:32:11 ◼   ► - Let me ask you two, did either of you try

00:32:14 ◼   ► this feature at all?

00:32:15 ◼   ► - I think we are established and both can't sing, so no.

00:32:17 ◼   ► - Oh no, no. - Oh no, I can't either.

00:32:18 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, I do sing, I don't know if I can,

00:32:21 ◼   ► but I do in the car when I'm by myself.

00:32:25 ◼   ► When you're listening to Phish, you miss it,

00:32:27 ◼   ► you say three words every 30 minutes.

00:32:29 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:32:30 ◼   ► - Well done.

00:32:31 ◼   ► - I can sing other music also, but yeah.

00:32:34 ◼   ► But the problem is I haven't had a lot of that time

00:32:37 ◼   ► since I've upgraded to 16.2 and stuff, so.

00:32:40 ◼   ► - So I did try it very briefly on my iPad,

00:32:42 ◼   ► and I don't know how I got this impression.

00:32:45 ◼   ► I presume I just vastly misunderstood.

00:32:48 ◼   ► I thought that there was a lot to this,

00:32:51 ◼   ► or something more to this on the user side.

00:32:54 ◼   ► Clearly there's a lot to this on the implementation side,

00:32:56 ◼   ► as we were just discussing.

00:32:58 ◼   ► But on the user side,

00:33:00 ◼   ► it's basically just another volume control for vocals.

00:33:03 ◼   ► Maybe everyone knew this but me, but that's it.

00:33:06 ◼   ► It's just, you're looking at the lyrics view.

00:33:07 ◼   ► - Because the lyrics already did,

00:33:09 ◼   ► the things you're seeing in the lyrics,

00:33:10 ◼   ► the lyrics already did that.

00:33:11 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:33:11 ◼   ► - They already looked like karaoke.

00:33:12 ◼   ► Like they highlight the words as they come up in the song

00:33:14 ◼   ► and they scroll automatically.

00:33:15 ◼   ► That existed that way for years.

00:33:18 ◼   ► And they just added the ability

00:33:19 ◼   ► to basically turn down the vocals too.

00:33:21 ◼   ► And I think one of the things that will maybe identi--

00:33:25 ◼   ► I haven't tried this, but one of the things

00:33:26 ◼   ► that will maybe identify it is whether it's

00:33:27 ◼   ► machine learning or not.

00:33:28 ◼   ► If you have the individual tracks,

00:33:29 ◼   ► you could put the vocals to zero

00:33:30 ◼   ► and you won't hear them at all.

00:33:32 ◼   ► Whereas if you're using machine learning

00:33:33 ◼   ► and you put the vocals to zero,

00:33:34 ◼   ► maybe you'll still pick them up a little bit.

00:33:36 ◼   ► I'll have to try it.

00:33:37 ◼   ► - So I did try doing exactly that.

00:33:39 ◼   ► Now, granted, I was doing this on my iPad,

00:33:41 ◼   ► not using AirPods, just the iPad speakers.

00:33:44 ◼   ► As far as I could tell, there was zero vocals,

00:33:47 ◼   ► but I very well could be wrong about that.

00:33:50 ◼   ► this is in five minutes playing about. Now it is very slick that you can just get a volume slider

00:33:55 ◼   ► for the vocal track, like that is cool, but for some reason I thought it was more involved than

00:33:59 ◼   ► that and it's not. Like that's all it is. I shouldn't say that's all it is, but that's all

00:34:04 ◼   ► it is and I was surprised to see that. But with that said it was extremely well done and if I

00:34:09 ◼   ► could carry a tune I could see it being a lot of fun to mess about with, but I cannot. All right,

00:34:15 ◼   ► - All right, so Marco, that Tesla that you've probably

00:34:18 ◼   ► either sold or about to sell, good news.

00:34:21 ◼   ► You can now use Apple Music in your Tesla.

00:34:24 ◼   ► - Great, I expect that to work super well.

00:34:28 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:34:31 ◼   ► - I mean, this is not them adding CarPlay,

00:34:33 ◼   ► but it is an improvement over not acknowledging

00:34:37 ◼   ► that Apple Music exists at all.

00:34:39 ◼   ► - And also not acknowledging that people just play music

00:34:41 ◼   ► from their phones.

00:34:43 ◼   ► The car has a built-in cell modem for things like traffic routing and stuff like that.

00:34:46 ◼   ► It was only like one or two years of that for free.

00:34:50 ◼   ► And then after that, you had to pay per month.

00:34:53 ◼   ► And I just never signed up for that because I'm like, "What do I need this for?"

00:34:57 ◼   ► Because they don't have CarPlay, I never use their media stuff anyway.

00:35:01 ◼   ► I have my phone doing directions using Waze or Apple Maps.

00:35:06 ◼   ► And then I have my phone also playing music or overcast

00:35:11 ◼   ► podcasts over the speakers.

00:35:13 ◼   ► And so what do I need the vehicles built in weird stereo

00:35:18 ◼   ► thing for if it's just playing a streaming service?

00:35:20 ◼   ► I can do that on my phone and have better integration and more

00:35:22 ◼   ► control and a more unified experience with the way

00:35:25 ◼   ► my phone works in other ways and have Bluetooth

00:35:28 ◼   ► connected and ready to go.

00:35:29 ◼   ► So it was a no-brainer for me.

00:35:31 ◼   ► I just never used that.

00:35:32 ◼   ► And so this adds yet another capability to that data stream

00:35:36 ◼   ► that I don't have access to for a car I'm trying to sell.

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00:37:34 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:37:37 ◼   ► - Moving on, we had just talked about this

00:37:39 ◼   ► kind of obliquely a second ago, but the Freeform app.

00:37:42 ◼   ► So this is new in, what is it, 16.2, something like that?

00:37:45 ◼   ► Whatever just came out in the last 48 hours.

00:37:47 ◼   ► This was teased, I believe, at WWDC.

00:37:50 ◼   ► Do I have that right?

00:37:51 ◼   ► - I think it was actually demoed, wasn't it?

00:37:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, they showed the app.

00:37:55 ◼   ► It's coming soon to all of Apple platforms.

00:37:58 ◼   ► So it's on the Mac, it's on the iPad.

00:37:59 ◼   ► Is it on the iPhone?

00:38:00 ◼   ► I don't remember.

00:38:01 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it's on everything.

00:38:02 ◼   ► Yeah, it was one of those features they said--

00:38:04 ◼   ► and the free form on Apple becoming--

00:38:06 ◼   ► whatever they said-- later this year.

00:38:07 ◼   ► One of those things that didn't launch when iOS 16 launched.

00:38:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:11 ◼   ► So this is now out.

00:38:12 ◼   ► It's everywhere.

00:38:13 ◼   ► And I only spent a few minutes playing with it.

00:38:17 ◼   ► I don't know what in my life needs an infinite canvas

00:38:22 ◼   ► sketching clip art app.

00:38:24 ◼   ► But holy cow, this app is really cool.

00:38:26 ◼   ► I really, really like it.

00:38:28 ◼   ► So again, what it is, it's an infinite canvas,

00:38:31 ◼   ► which when we were all together, maybe--

00:38:33 ◼   ► I don't know if that was the year that you were there, Marco.

00:38:35 ◼   ► But when at least the Syracuse's and us and the Underscore's

00:38:38 ◼   ► and maybe the Armin's were all at the Underscore's for New

00:38:41 ◼   ► Year's-- this is probably four or five years ago now--

00:38:43 ◼   ► we did a text-based adventure game

00:38:47 ◼   ► like they used to do with the upgrade Cortex Crossover.

00:38:50 ◼   ► Well, they still do it, but they do it differently now.

00:38:53 ◼   ► And anyways, I wanted to have an app on my iPad to draw a map.

00:38:56 ◼   ► And it was surprisingly challenging four or five years ago to come up with an app that

00:39:01 ◼   ► you had an infinite canvas, so you could go as far as you wanted in any direction.

00:39:07 ◼   ► And there were some that existed, and I think there was a Microsoft one, maybe OneNote,

00:39:11 ◼   ► that was actually pretty good.

00:39:12 ◼   ► There were a couple others that I found.

00:39:14 ◼   ► But this one feels very Appley, which makes sense because Apple wrote it.

00:39:19 ◼   ► But it's a really, really well done infinite canvas sketching app.

00:39:25 ◼   ► And I really, really, really like it.

00:39:27 ◼   ► If I was just doodling with no particular known endpoint, I really, really like Linnea.

00:39:36 ◼   ► I think that's how we were told to pronounce it.

00:39:38 ◼   ► Linnea by our friends at the Icon Factory is excellent.

00:39:40 ◼   ► Yeah, I love it too.

00:39:42 ◼   ► And I would still choose that probably in most cases in no small part because of some

00:39:47 ◼   ► of the tools that they have to like draw shapes very, you know, freeform but auto detect them

00:39:52 ◼   ► and turn them into shapes and I love that they have different like paper if you will,

00:39:55 ◼   ► they have like graph paper and they have, I think they have like iPhone screens so you

00:40:00 ◼   ► can draw mockups and stuff and so I really recommend Linnea, if I remember I'll put a

00:40:04 ◼   ► link in the show notes.

00:40:06 ◼   ► But this freeform thing for when you're doing freeform doodling or whatever is really really

00:40:12 ◼   ► good and I really, really like it. So I played with it on the iPad and there's like a bunch

00:40:18 ◼   ► of things that are across the top, a bunch of tools across the top that you can play

00:40:21 ◼   ► with. There's like the standard pen thing where you can doodle with the Apple Pencil.

00:40:27 ◼   ► But interestingly, the tools that you can use are a little different than normal, I

00:40:31 ◼   ► think. They have a pen that has a capital letter A on it. And that's basically to start

00:40:38 ◼   ► a text field if I understand it correctly. Then they have like a pen, a marker, a crayon,

00:40:45 ◼   ► which was a little surprising and kind of cool. They have something, maybe John you can tell me

00:40:49 ◼   ► if you've looked at this, what this is. It looks like a like a bottle of paint, but I don't think

00:40:52 ◼   ► that's actually what it is. The eraser and then the like squiggle blur things tool. They also have

00:40:59 ◼   ► a ton of clip art. I don't know if that's even what we're supposed to call it these days, but

00:41:02 ◼   ► but I'm old so I call it clip art. They have a bunch of stuff on here including

00:41:07 ◼   ► like an entire farm's worth of animals. They have a waffle which is round which

00:41:12 ◼   ► I personally believe is the correct shape for a waffle. They have a food

00:41:17 ◼   ► truck which I thought was funny. They have John Siracusa's refrigerator maybe

00:41:21 ◼   ► I don't know do you have a bottom freezer or a side freezer John? It's

00:41:24 ◼   ► French drawers on top freezer drawer on the bottom. Okay then they have your

00:41:27 ◼   ► actual refrigerator because it does not have water or ice dispenser on it and

00:41:31 ◼   ► And they have a turntable, I was excited to find.

00:41:34 ◼   ► So there's all sorts of fun clip art in here.

00:41:36 ◼   ► I also liked that when I was noodling about with it

00:41:40 ◼   ► that I was looking to move a couple of sticky notes

00:41:44 ◼   ► near each other and I was just messing about.

00:41:46 ◼   ► And sure enough, when they got close to each other,

00:41:49 ◼   ► they popped up alignment guides.

00:41:51 ◼   ► So they would align against text,

00:41:53 ◼   ► they would align against each other,

00:41:55 ◼   ► and it was really, really intuitive,

00:41:57 ◼   ► and it worked really, really well.

00:41:58 ◼   ► This whole thing, I really, really dig.

00:42:01 ◼   ► Again, I feel like it's a solution looking for a problem

00:42:04 ◼   ► in my particular case, but I was quite surprised

00:42:07 ◼   ► at how great this was for an initial release,

00:42:11 ◼   ► and especially for something that I was like,

00:42:12 ◼   ► yeah, whatever, I'll just try it out

00:42:13 ◼   ► and see if it's any good.

00:42:15 ◼   ► I really like it, and you can sync via iCloud.

00:42:19 ◼   ► I think it has affordances for live collaboration.

00:42:21 ◼   ► I didn't personally try this,

00:42:22 ◼   ► and I might be lying to you by accident, but--

00:42:24 ◼   ► - But that's kind of the whole point of this thing,

00:42:26 ◼   ► is supposed to be collaboration.

00:42:27 ◼   ► And by the way, it's not my fridge.

00:42:28 ◼   ► My fridge has French doors on top.

00:42:29 ◼   ► That's not French doors, that's just one big door.

00:42:32 ◼   ► - Jeez Casey. - Was it?

00:42:33 ◼   ► Oh shoot, I'm sorry.

00:42:34 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:42:35 ◼   ► The offending party has been sacked.

00:42:37 ◼   ► - So the fact that you used it on the iPad,

00:42:40 ◼   ► it's almost like you're describing

00:42:41 ◼   ► a slightly different app than mine.

00:42:43 ◼   ► Because I was using it on the Mac

00:42:44 ◼   ► and my frustrations were with the tools available.

00:42:49 ◼   ► What I wanted to do immediately was,

00:42:51 ◼   ► hey, this is Infinite Canvas, I wanna just scribble on it.

00:42:54 ◼   ► And I could not for the life of me on the Mac version

00:42:56 ◼   ► figure out how to scribble on this thing.

00:42:59 ◼   ► I have a pen tool, but the pen tool only lets me make straight lines, Bezier curves, stuff

00:43:05 ◼   ► like that.

00:43:06 ◼   ► I could not find a scribble thing.

00:43:07 ◼   ► Now obviously if you have the Apple Pencil or your finger it lets you do that, but on

00:43:10 ◼   ► the Mac you just can't draw with the cursor I guess?

00:43:13 ◼   ► They're just like no we can't.

00:43:14 ◼   ► I mean I grew up drawing with the cursor in Mac Paint and Super Paint.

00:43:18 ◼   ► It is a thing that you can do, but this app is like no you need Apple Pencil.

00:43:22 ◼   ► Or you need a touch device.

00:43:23 ◼   ► I don't understand that.

00:43:24 ◼   ► All those things you said, the pen with the little A on it, the bucket, the little bottle

00:43:29 ◼   ► thing like the crayon none of that is here or if it's here I'm not finding it

00:43:33 ◼   ► maybe I have to like make my screen bigger I don't know your screen bigger

00:43:37 ◼   ► that's what I'm saying like how is the window not big enough on here like when

00:43:41 ◼   ► I click on some things I see on the top is I see a thing to make a sticky note I

00:43:45 ◼   ► see a thing that looks like a circle in a square and in the upper right hand

00:43:50 ◼   ► corner of the popover that appears I see the pen tool the tooltip says draw with

00:43:54 ◼   ► the pen tool but all I can do with the pen tool is make straight lines and

00:43:57 ◼   ► bezier curves and then there's a million different clip art things or whatever

00:44:01 ◼   ► yeah I see what you're saying then there's mega text box right and you

00:44:05 ◼   ► click that it immediately makes a text box then there's the photo thing where

00:44:09 ◼   ► you can add a photo or a movie and then there's the choose a file to add there's

00:44:12 ◼   ► no scribble thingy you know for just like scribbling I don't understand it

00:44:16 ◼   ► yeah you're right on the Mac it does not have have any of these affordances that

00:44:21 ◼   ► I'm talking about and I wish I had I meant to try the collaboration thing

00:44:23 ◼   ► because I feel like that's where this thing really was really supposed to be

00:44:27 ◼   ► or us having multiple people do this.

00:44:28 ◼   ► But I look at this app, and not that there's anything wrong with it,

00:44:30 ◼   ► it's fine, but it boggles my mind that Apple decided to make this.

00:44:34 ◼   ► Because it's not like they don't have things to do.

00:44:36 ◼   ► I can give them a list.

00:44:37 ◼   ► We do.

00:44:38 ◼   ► They have to show us about this.

00:44:39 ◼   ► Plenty of things that they could do.

00:44:41 ◼   ► But somehow-- I mean, was this an acquisition?

00:44:43 ◼   ► Did they acquire a company that already had this app,

00:44:45 ◼   ► and they brought it to the Mac?

00:44:47 ◼   ► Was this just somebody's good idea?

00:44:48 ◼   ► Not that I'm saying they shouldn't do this,

00:44:51 ◼   ► but it's so weird for them to decide to make this specific app.

00:44:56 ◼   ► In particular, the challenge that I think most of their users face when it comes to

00:45:00 ◼   ► collaboratively working in a sort of multimedia environment involves communication with people,

00:45:08 ◼   ► right?

00:45:09 ◼   ► So that's why this is a collaborative tool, but the main communication thing that I think

00:45:12 ◼   ► people use with Apple devices is one, messages, iMessage, right?

00:45:16 ◼   ► And two, probably FaceTime.

00:45:18 ◼   ► And this is not FaceTime or Messages.

00:45:22 ◼   ► It's a whole other application.

00:45:23 ◼   ► Now it kind of integrates with those other things

00:45:25 ◼   ► and you can sort of fold it into that.

00:45:27 ◼   ► But I feel like the entry point should be

00:45:29 ◼   ► when you're in one of the existing applications,

00:45:32 ◼   ► here's a new way for you to collaborate

00:45:33 ◼   ► versus come through this app and then, I don't know,

00:45:36 ◼   ► maybe I'm wrong about that.

00:45:37 ◼   ► Maybe this is a really important tool

00:45:38 ◼   ► and they need to be competitive in this market

00:45:41 ◼   ► because if they have a free thing that does this,

00:45:43 ◼   ► it's really important to all their users.

00:45:45 ◼   ► But it seems to me that I would much rather have

00:45:47 ◼   ► the ability to have us all look at a frigging photo

00:45:49 ◼   ► when we're on a FaceTime call,

00:45:51 ◼   ► which is a thing that iChat can do

00:45:52 ◼   ► that FaceTime still can't do in a pleasing way.

00:45:55 ◼   ► - I agree with you.

00:45:56 ◼   ► Do you have your iPad within reach or no?

00:45:59 ◼   ► - No, it's upstairs.

00:46:00 ◼   ► - So Casey just sent a link for, a test link

00:46:03 ◼   ► for us to collaborate on a free form board.

00:46:06 ◼   ► I opened it, this is my first run experience,

00:46:08 ◼   ► I opened it up and it gives me an error

00:46:09 ◼   ► that the board can't be opened.

00:46:11 ◼   ► - Cool.

00:46:12 ◼   ► - Oh, now I got it, all right.

00:46:14 ◼   ► Oh, I can select things.

00:46:15 ◼   ► Yeah, see, so I mean, I have,

00:46:18 ◼   ► this is actually, I haven't used the app yet,

00:46:20 ◼   ► But I think there's two ways to look at,

00:46:24 ◼   ► why did Apple make this app,

00:46:25 ◼   ► and what's it going to do long term?

00:46:28 ◼   ► We can look at something like Clips,

00:46:31 ◼   ► and Clips basically has got,

00:46:34 ◼   ► it was put out there and then just left to die.

00:46:37 ◼   ► Like it just got no love, no ongoing support,

00:46:41 ◼   ► no ongoing features.

00:46:43 ◼   ► It was itself kind of redundant

00:46:45 ◼   ► with their other apps already.

00:46:47 ◼   ► You could argue like, why didn't they just make iMovie better

00:46:49 ◼   ► or whatever, you know, and so clips,

00:46:52 ◼   ► it was put out there and then just left.

00:46:54 ◼   ► And no follow up, no follow through,

00:46:58 ◼   ► and Apple's really unfortunately kind of good

00:47:00 ◼   ► at putting stuff out there and then never following through

00:47:03 ◼   ► with it and kind of getting it out there

00:47:05 ◼   ► like 80% of the way and then just letting it die.

00:47:08 ◼   ► So that's I think the pessimistic outcome here.

00:47:11 ◼   ► Like that could be what happens here.

00:47:14 ◼   ► Or it could be like Notes, where Apple Notes came out,

00:47:18 ◼   ► I mean, obviously not the very original,

00:47:20 ◼   ► like Marker felt one, but the modern app that we know

00:47:23 ◼   ► is Apple Notes, that came out and everyone was like,

00:47:26 ◼   ► huh, they put a lot of work into that.

00:47:28 ◼   ► And then they just kept iterating it.

00:47:31 ◼   ► Every OS release, Notes got a little bit better

00:47:33 ◼   ► and got some new capability and we all just started using it

00:47:38 ◼   ► because it was just good.

00:47:40 ◼   ► Maybe that will happen here.

00:47:42 ◼   ► Maybe this will actually, maybe, what's this called?

00:47:46 ◼   ► I already forgot.

00:47:47 ◼   ► Freeform.

00:47:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:47:50 ◼   ► Maybe this is just gonna become

00:47:51 ◼   ► one of those Apple system apps that,

00:47:54 ◼   ► you know, it doesn't get a lot of attention,

00:47:57 ◼   ► but people just slowly start using it.

00:48:00 ◼   ► And then it eventually becomes this thing that,

00:48:02 ◼   ► yeah, a lot of people just use this

00:48:04 ◼   ► and they get stuff done on it and it's fine.

00:48:06 ◼   ► And even though people don't often talk about it,

00:48:09 ◼   ► it's just one of those useful utility apps

00:48:12 ◼   ► that people like us Apple users tend to just enjoy

00:48:16 ◼   ► and use as part of our day and not really think about.

00:48:18 ◼   ► So that's, I think, the ideal outcome here.

00:48:22 ◼   ► And I think that's possible.

00:48:24 ◼   ► Even if the collaboration features,

00:48:26 ◼   ► which Apple has always done at best an okay to poor job at,

00:48:31 ◼   ► even if those end up not being as good as something like

00:48:36 ◼   ► what we see from the G Suite or from Microsoft or whatever,

00:48:41 ◼   ► even if it's never quite to that level,

00:48:44 ◼   ► If it's good enough to be okay usable

00:48:47 ◼   ► within a small group like us or within a family,

00:48:49 ◼   ► that's how we use Notes.

00:48:51 ◼   ► We have shared Notes within our family

00:48:53 ◼   ► and we have a couple for us for various ATP things.

00:48:57 ◼   ► If it ends up being that kind of app,

00:48:59 ◼   ► then that's fine, that's great

00:49:01 ◼   ► because it's not gonna take over,

00:49:04 ◼   ► it's not gonna suddenly make businesses stop buying Office.

00:49:08 ◼   ► It's not gonna make schools stop buying Chromebooks.

00:49:11 ◼   ► It's not gonna radically change collaboration forever,

00:49:14 ◼   ► but it could just be a really nice thing

00:49:16 ◼   ► that Apple users get to enjoy and use for themselves

00:49:18 ◼   ► and their families and small groups here and there.

00:49:21 ◼   ► And if that's quote all it is, that's great.

00:49:25 ◼   ► For it to be that thing instead of ending up like clips

00:49:28 ◼   ► merely requires that it's useful to some people

00:49:32 ◼   ► in some certain ways, which I think it probably is

00:49:35 ◼   ► on track to that now if not already there.

00:49:38 ◼   ► And then secondly, it requires Apple to actually invest in it ongoing,

00:49:43 ◼   ► to actually care about this app,

00:49:46 ◼   ► make sure it has a staff of more than zero people after this week and really

00:49:51 ◼   ► follow through and make sure like, is this getting love every OS release?

00:49:55 ◼   ► Are they,

00:49:56 ◼   ► are they listening to customer feedback and making tweaks and making adjustments

00:49:59 ◼   ► and fixing problems and addressing shortcomings?

00:50:02 ◼   ► If they can do that on an anywhere near regular basis and keep this thing from

00:50:07 ◼   ► dying on the vine, this could be really cool.

00:50:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think it could definitely benefit from,

00:50:13 ◼   ► it's not like, you know, I was just complaining

00:50:15 ◼   ► about the feature set and I do feel like the Mac

00:50:17 ◼   ► is getting the short end of the stick here,

00:50:18 ◼   ► but it's not like it needs tons of features,

00:50:20 ◼   ► but for version one, I think its main strength

00:50:22 ◼   ► that Apple should leverage is system integration, right?

00:50:25 ◼   ► Kind of like the quick note thing where you can, you know,

00:50:27 ◼   ► make a note by going up in the corner,

00:50:29 ◼   ► it took a long time for that to arrive,

00:50:30 ◼   ► but that's the type of thing that Apple can do

00:50:32 ◼   ► that third party developers have a harder time with.

00:50:34 ◼   ► So this is like, you know, across all of Apple's platforms,

00:50:36 ◼   ► a theory useful app, but it shouldn't feel so much

00:50:39 ◼   ► like an island.

00:50:40 ◼   ► It should be thoroughly integrated

00:50:42 ◼   ► with FaceTime and Messages, I feel like.

00:50:44 ◼   ► You should be able to seamlessly,

00:50:46 ◼   ► OpenDoc-style transition from, hey, I'm in a message thread,

00:50:48 ◼   ► and now everyone in this message thread

00:50:50 ◼   ► is scribbling on this document.

00:50:51 ◼   ► Oh, sorry, Mac users, you can't scribble,

00:50:53 ◼   ► 'cause everyone knows that's impossible with a mouse.

00:50:55 ◼   ► But anyway, you don't need sophisticated tools

00:50:58 ◼   ► and grid snapping, and it doesn't need to become

00:51:02 ◼   ► Illustrator or whatever, but if it just had integration,

00:51:05 ◼   ► I think that would get people using it more.

00:51:07 ◼   ► Because right now, no one's going to even know

00:51:08 ◼   ► this app is installed.

00:51:09 ◼   ► Like it comes in-- it came in an update.

00:51:10 ◼   ► It comes in 16.2 and 13.1.

00:51:12 ◼   ► Oh, don't worry.

00:51:13 ◼   ► It puts itself on the dock.

00:51:15 ◼   ► I know, but that's why people have tons of things in the dock.

00:51:17 ◼   ► They have no idea what those icons are.

00:51:19 ◼   ► Whereas if it was well integrated into Messages,

00:51:22 ◼   ► and if the Messages team would get their head out

00:51:24 ◼   ► of their butts and put the thing to add a photo to Messages

00:51:28 ◼   ► back prominently placed and get rid of the microphone thing.

00:51:31 ◼   ► There's a lot of things we can do to Messages to sort of find

00:51:34 ◼   ► the most common things that people do.

00:51:36 ◼   ► And when you have that real estate,

00:51:38 ◼   ► you could put your new app in that position

00:51:41 ◼   ► to say, we think that this is a thing people would like to do

00:51:44 ◼   ► even though they hadn't never realized it before.

00:51:46 ◼   ► Like, 'cause they're not used to having

00:51:47 ◼   ► this kind of collaboration,

00:51:48 ◼   ► but just like how we put the one tap way

00:51:51 ◼   ► to add a photo to a message thread

00:51:53 ◼   ► back in a prominent place

00:51:54 ◼   ► where you don't have to dig for it.

00:51:55 ◼   ► Likewise, we decided that we think free form

00:51:57 ◼   ► is equally important.

00:51:58 ◼   ► And so we put a little icon up on there too,

00:52:01 ◼   ► and we put it in place of the microphone or something.

00:52:03 ◼   ► Anyway, put it in people's faces where they're like,

00:52:06 ◼   ► "Huh, maybe we would like to do this."

00:52:08 ◼   ► And then people find it useful for,

00:52:10 ◼   ► imagine if you could pull up a map

00:52:12 ◼   ► and then scribble on the map in a message thread

00:52:14 ◼   ► in real-time collaboration on your phones, right?

00:52:16 ◼   ► That might be useful.

00:52:17 ◼   ► Whereas this is like a curiosity of like,

00:52:19 ◼   ► "Oh, well, if you launch the app

00:52:21 ◼   ► and if other people also know the app exists

00:52:22 ◼   ► and you send them a link, you can both scribble together."

00:52:24 ◼   ► It's like, it's more of a corporate thing.

00:52:26 ◼   ► Your coworkers will definitely do this

00:52:28 ◼   ► and use an app like this.

00:52:29 ◼   ► Although your coworkers are gonna say,

00:52:30 ◼   ► "Well, that's great and all,

00:52:31 ◼   ► but we can only use the worst version

00:52:33 ◼   ► that comes with Microsoft Office Suite, which what else is new.

00:52:37 ◼   ► But if Apple wants to make this thing,

00:52:39 ◼   ► I feel like it needs much better system integration.

00:52:42 ◼   ► I still question-- maybe they know something I don't about

00:52:44 ◼   ► a gaping hole in the lineup of default installed stuff,

00:52:50 ◼   ► that people get Apple devices.

00:52:52 ◼   ► And what I really want is an infinite canvas

00:52:54 ◼   ► where I can collaborate, right?

00:52:56 ◼   ► Because this app, they're not selling it.

00:52:58 ◼   ► It comes free with your devices, which is great.

00:53:00 ◼   ► But when Apple does stuff like that,

00:53:02 ◼   ► It's to fill a need that they think is big.

00:53:05 ◼   ► Like you get a web browser, 'cause everybody needs that.

00:53:07 ◼   ► You get a mail client, 'cause it's a really common thing.

00:53:09 ◼   ► You get a notes app.

00:53:10 ◼   ► It's not the best notes app in the world,

00:53:11 ◼   ► but it's a pretty good one.

00:53:12 ◼   ► Lots of people need notes,

00:53:13 ◼   ► especially when they need to write long apologies

00:53:15 ◼   ► on Twitter or whatever.

00:53:16 ◼   ► Like it's an important application, right?

00:53:18 ◼   ► But they don't need to include everything.

00:53:19 ◼   ► Like it doesn't, I was gonna say,

00:53:21 ◼   ► it doesn't include like a multi-track audio editor

00:53:23 ◼   ► like Logic, but it does include GarageBand, I suppose.

00:53:26 ◼   ► But yeah, the question of which applications

00:53:28 ◼   ► is Apple going to pay to develop

00:53:31 ◼   ► and then give away for free as a way to add value

00:53:34 ◼   ► to its devices.

00:53:35 ◼   ► And that list really has to be either things

00:53:39 ◼   ► that they already know people want to do,

00:53:41 ◼   ► like email and web browse, or things they're pretty sure

00:53:43 ◼   ► that a lot of people are going to want to do.

00:53:44 ◼   ► And maybe this qualifies.

00:53:45 ◼   ► Maybe I'm totally off base about it.

00:53:47 ◼   ► But right now, it seems like a bit of a curiosity.

00:53:49 ◼   ► - I think this is really slick.

00:53:50 ◼   ► And I saw Marco doodling in there to a degree

00:53:54 ◼   ► while I was working in there,

00:53:55 ◼   ► and it didn't seem to completely fall apart.

00:53:58 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:53:59 ◼   ► Again, after only having used this for a few minutes,

00:54:01 ◼   ► I'm pretty impressed.

00:54:03 ◼   ► - I'm just so angry that I can't scribble.

00:54:05 ◼   ► I'm unreasonably angry. - I can tell.

00:54:07 ◼   ► - Like I don't understand it.

00:54:09 ◼   ► Who doesn't wanna scribble on the shared placemat, right?

00:54:12 ◼   ► That's the whole fun of it.

00:54:14 ◼   ► And you guys are all having fun

00:54:16 ◼   ► and doing your little messages with your handwriting,

00:54:18 ◼   ► with your fingers or your Apple Pencil,

00:54:20 ◼   ► and here I am, I can draw like,

00:54:21 ◼   ► look, it's a box, it's a square I can draw.

00:54:24 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:54:25 ◼   ► It's just so terrible.

00:54:27 ◼   ► It's just, I don't understand.

00:54:29 ◼   ► I don't understand why I'm being left out

00:54:31 ◼   ► of the scribble party.

00:54:32 ◼   ► - Because you insist on using a Mac

00:54:34 ◼   ► and putting your iPad up near your bed.

00:54:36 ◼   ► That's why.

00:54:37 ◼   ► - I don't even currently have an iPad

00:54:39 ◼   ► that I'm signed into with my Apple ID.

00:54:41 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:54:42 ◼   ► I can't even do like, I guess like,

00:54:45 ◼   ► I always want to be the kind of person

00:54:48 ◼   ► who writes and draws like with pencils or pens

00:54:51 ◼   ► or Apple pencils.

00:54:52 ◼   ► I always want to be that kind of person

00:54:54 ◼   ► and I'm just not, I end up wanting to draw something

00:54:58 ◼   ► and actually doing it maybe three times a year.

00:55:02 ◼   ► And then I'll take out Linnea and do it on the iPad

00:55:05 ◼   ► with the pencil and everything.

00:55:06 ◼   ► The pencil's of course dead, I have to like wait

00:55:08 ◼   ► for it to charge a little bit.

00:55:10 ◼   ► Like I want so badly to be that kind of person

00:55:12 ◼   ► because Apple pencils and notebooks and pens are so cool

00:55:16 ◼   ► and I'm just not that kind of person.

00:55:19 ◼   ► - It doesn't, I just take it back,

00:55:20 ◼   ► it doesn't even have like a circle and a square tool,

00:55:22 ◼   ► it's just got the pen tool.

00:55:23 ◼   ► Like I can't even make, I can draw a circle

00:55:26 ◼   ► with the pen tool or a square.

00:55:27 ◼   ► It's just, I don't understand it.

00:55:30 ◼   ► It seems like the tools here are more limited

00:55:32 ◼   ► than they are in the, what are they called?

00:55:34 ◼   ► They're called markup, like when you do the share sheet

00:55:36 ◼   ► and you get the little pen.

00:55:38 ◼   ► That seems to have more extensive tools on the Mac

00:55:40 ◼   ► than this does, which is really mind boggling.

00:55:43 ◼   ► The other thing is you can do little sticky notes.

00:55:45 ◼   ► That's why I've been moving these sticky notes around.

00:55:46 ◼   ► You can make a little sticky note.

00:55:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, but they have to be square.

00:55:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, it has to be square, first of all,

00:55:50 ◼   ► which kind of makes sense 'cause it stops reading

00:55:52 ◼   ► as a sticky note if it's not square,

00:55:53 ◼   ► although they do make sticky notes that aren't square.

00:55:55 ◼   ► But anyway, you can put stuff on it like text and scribbles,

00:55:58 ◼   ► but then when you move the note, text and scribbles

00:56:00 ◼   ► don't go with it.

00:56:00 ◼   ► Yeah, I noticed that too.

00:56:02 ◼   ► It seems that is a bummer.

00:56:03 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:56:04 ◼   ► That seems like a decision and not a mistake to me,

00:56:06 ◼   ► because they're like, OK, if the stuff went with it,

00:56:09 ◼   ► that makes sense, but then what if someone

00:56:10 ◼   ► writes outside the edges?

00:56:11 ◼   ► How does that work?

00:56:12 ◼   ► So I kind of see how they arrived at this decision,

00:56:14 ◼   ► but it really does break the illusion.

00:56:16 ◼   ► Yeah, I would agree with that.

00:56:17 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:56:17 ◼   ► All told, John gives us a triple F minus,

00:56:20 ◼   ► and I give it a B plus, maybe an A minus.

00:56:25 ◼   ► I am impressed by the collaboration ability.

00:56:27 ◼   ► This is one of the first apps that I've ever seen from Apple

00:56:29 ◼   ► where I can actually see you two doing things in real time

00:56:32 ◼   ► and the app isn't crashing.

00:56:33 ◼   ► And it seems to be like,

00:56:35 ◼   ► I think I'm seeing you do stuff as you do it

00:56:37 ◼   ► as opposed to Apple's previous overt set collaboration

00:56:40 ◼   ► which was not like that.

00:56:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, like when you're editing notes together

00:56:43 ◼   ► with someone else, it's like,

00:56:45 ◼   ► they're basically sending it via carrier pigeon.

00:56:48 ◼   ► Like, at some point the person's gonna see what you wrote,

00:56:51 ◼   ► but I mean, well, geez, first of all,

00:56:53 ◼   ► your own stuff doesn't sync that quickly

00:56:55 ◼   ► between your own devices.

00:56:56 ◼   ► It's like, ugh.

00:56:57 ◼   ► - The problem with Notes is I think,

00:56:59 ◼   ► especially on iOS and iPadOS,

00:57:01 ◼   ► I don't think it syncs in the background,

00:57:02 ◼   ► so I think you actually have to launch the Notes app

00:57:04 ◼   ► to make it sync, which is, again, mind boggling to me.

00:57:07 ◼   ► - That's, to me, that's my number one

00:57:09 ◼   ► feature request for Notes.

00:57:10 ◼   ► Like, if they just make Notes always sync itself

00:57:14 ◼   ► in the background.

00:57:15 ◼   ► You are Apple, you can do that.

00:57:17 ◼   ► I can't do that with Overcast, but that makes sense.

00:57:20 ◼   ► You, Apple, should be able to do that.

00:57:22 ◼   ► Always keep it up to date in the background.

00:57:25 ◼   ► - And it's not gonna kill our batteries

00:57:26 ◼   ► 'cause people shouldn't be sharing

00:57:28 ◼   ► like 60 megapixel images.

00:57:31 ◼   ► It's like, it's Notes.

00:57:32 ◼   ► It's probably just syntax.

00:57:34 ◼   ► Just send it.

00:57:34 ◼   ► - Right.

00:57:35 ◼   ► - This collaboration seems pretty good.

00:57:38 ◼   ► Although I think Notes has also gotten an update in 16.2.

00:57:41 ◼   ► I think they mentioned that you can now see

00:57:42 ◼   ► other people's cursors in Notes,

00:57:44 ◼   ► which is kind of a Google Docs style thing.

00:57:45 ◼   ► I wonder if that is just a cosmetic change

00:57:47 ◼   ► or if they've also revamped the syncing.

00:57:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I agree with what you're saying

00:57:50 ◼   ► about syncing, but yeah, I believe Notes

00:57:52 ◼   ► in 16.2 ads real-time collaboration,

00:57:54 ◼   ► which I have not tried yet,

00:57:55 ◼   ► but I've understood to be pretty good.

00:57:58 ◼   ► - I mean, I'm looking at a shared note in 16.2 right now,

00:58:00 ◼   ► but no one is editing it, and I don't know.

00:58:02 ◼   ► Maybe I'll experiment with it for next week.

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01:00:05 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:00:08 ◼   ► - Hey, Jon, tell me what convergent encryption is, please.

01:00:12 ◼   ► - This was something that Ben Thompson noticed

01:00:15 ◼   ► in the Apple's Advanced Data Protection announcement

01:00:17 ◼   ► that I thought was interesting and worth surfacing.

01:00:20 ◼   ► He talked about it in his Sir Tech Arena newsletter.

01:00:22 ◼   ► We'll put a link.

01:00:23 ◼   ► This is not one of the free things.

01:00:24 ◼   ► You have to be a subscriber to read it.

01:00:27 ◼   ► But it was in the Apple document that we linked last week

01:00:31 ◼   ► that's like an explanation of how this stuff works.

01:00:33 ◼   ► It's talking about some things that Advanced Data Protection

01:00:38 ◼   ► doesn't encrypt and it gives some details

01:00:41 ◼   ► on the little nitty gritty things here.

01:00:42 ◼   ► It says, "iCloud stores some data without protection

01:00:45 ◼   ► of user-specific Cloud Kit service keys,

01:00:46 ◼   ► even when the advanced data protection is turned on.

01:00:48 ◼   ► Dates and times when a file or object was modified

01:00:51 ◼   ► are used to sort a user's information,

01:00:52 ◼   ► and checksums of a file and photo data

01:00:55 ◼   ► are used to help Apple deduplicate and optimize

01:00:57 ◼   ► the user's iCloud device storage,

01:00:59 ◼   ► all without having access to the files and photos themselves.

01:01:01 ◼   ► So it's saying some of your data is not encrypted,

01:01:03 ◼   ► and one of the things that is not encrypted

01:01:06 ◼   ► is a checksum of files and photos, right?

01:01:09 ◼   ► Like just a hash of the file or photo.

01:01:12 ◼   ► They don't encrypt that hash or whatever.

01:01:14 ◼   ► And the reason they're doing it is for data deduplication.

01:01:18 ◼   ► This is, we talked about last time,

01:01:20 ◼   ► of like by encrypting everything end to end

01:01:22 ◼   ► and by taking the keys away from Apple,

01:01:25 ◼   ► in theory, Apple doesn't have a way to scan things

01:01:27 ◼   ► on the server side to look for, you know,

01:01:29 ◼   ► child sexual abuse material and other things like that,

01:01:32 ◼   ► because they can't see your files, right?

01:01:34 ◼   ► But they can see the checksum of your file.

01:01:37 ◼   ► Now, this doesn't help with their previous system

01:01:39 ◼   ► where they're like, we have this database

01:01:41 ◼   ► known bad material and we use this what procedural or was it perceptual hash or

01:01:46 ◼   ► something it was like a hash that was saying okay we're looking for this photo

01:01:51 ◼   ► that we know is bad and even if you scale the photo crop it a little bit

01:01:55 ◼   ► rotate it a little bit make it black and white we'll still find it and that is a

01:01:58 ◼   ► fuzzy system that is not a hundred percent accurate they can't do that

01:02:03 ◼   ► because they don't have access to your photos data but they do have access to a

01:02:06 ◼   ► a checksum of your photo.

01:02:08 ◼   ► So if you have an image, one of those images

01:02:13 ◼   ► that's in that database of bad images

01:02:15 ◼   ► that is not modified in any way, the checksum will match.

01:02:19 ◼   ► Now the problem with checksums and the reason

01:02:21 ◼   ► you use checksums, the beauty of checksums is

01:02:23 ◼   ► if you change just one bit in the image,

01:02:25 ◼   ► the checksum is totally different.

01:02:27 ◼   ► That's the point of checksums, right?

01:02:29 ◼   ► So it's not really, they can't really do

01:02:32 ◼   ► what they were proposing to do before

01:02:33 ◼   ► because it's trivially easy to defeat this

01:02:37 ◼   ► by just changing one pixel in an image

01:02:39 ◼   ► and now you have a totally different checksum

01:02:41 ◼   ► and no one can find it.

01:02:43 ◼   ► But setting all the CSAM stuff aside,

01:02:44 ◼   ► the checksums will let them de-duplicate

01:02:46 ◼   ► because when they're de-duplicating,

01:02:47 ◼   ► they're just trying to save storage and say,

01:02:49 ◼   ► okay, look, if we have literally the same file 700 times,

01:02:52 ◼   ► let's just store it once

01:02:54 ◼   ► and then just point everybody at that one thing.

01:02:56 ◼   ► And even within your own data,

01:02:58 ◼   ► if you accidentally have 17 copies of the same photo,

01:03:01 ◼   ► there's that de-duplicating function in photos

01:03:03 ◼   ► that will say, hey, we found duplicates of this photo.

01:03:05 ◼   ► It will only-- I mean, obviously,

01:03:06 ◼   ► when you're doing with your own photos,

01:03:07 ◼   ► you have access to the data.

01:03:08 ◼   ► But Apple on its end can de-duplicate the storage on--

01:03:12 ◼   ► I was going to say on your behalf,

01:03:13 ◼   ► but really it's on Apple's behalf

01:03:14 ◼   ► because they pay for all that storage, right?

01:03:16 ◼   ► This lets them do that.

01:03:18 ◼   ► And it's pretty interesting if you look at the Wikipedia page

01:03:20 ◼   ► on convergent encryption.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Like, how do they do that?

01:03:24 ◼   ► Basically, they use the hash as the encryption key,

01:03:29 ◼   ► and then they use your encryption key

01:03:32 ◼   ► to encrypt the hash.

01:03:34 ◼   ► It sounds kind of like, as Merlyn would say,

01:03:37 ◼   ► locking your keys inside your keys.

01:03:38 ◼   ► Read the Wikipedia page, it's not actually that complicated.

01:03:41 ◼   ► But it lets them have an unencrypted version

01:03:45 ◼   ► of the checksum or hash of your photo

01:03:48 ◼   ► while still not knowing what's actually in your photo.

01:03:51 ◼   ► In theory, this is a possible security hole

01:03:55 ◼   ► because let's say there is,

01:03:57 ◼   ► somehow it gets out into the world that,

01:03:59 ◼   ► hey, this photo has this checksum.

01:04:01 ◼   ► this exact photo has this checksum.

01:04:04 ◼   ► Then they could find every single user on iCloud

01:04:07 ◼   ► who has that photo in their library.

01:04:09 ◼   ► But again, considering if you change any aspect

01:04:13 ◼   ► of the photo in any way, the checksum is entirely different,

01:04:15 ◼   ► it's probably not that big of a deal.

01:04:16 ◼   ► But that's why they put it in this document.

01:04:17 ◼   ► If you're wondering, do they keep a checksum of your files?

01:04:19 ◼   ► They do, and that's for storage to duplication purposes.

01:04:23 ◼   ► Because you know they can't be giving you

01:04:24 ◼   ► that five gigabytes of free storage without doing this.

01:04:27 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:04:30 ◼   ► Oh, man.

01:04:31 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't want to get myself on a tear

01:04:34 ◼   ► about iCloud storage stuff.

01:04:36 ◼   ► So I will just let this go.

01:04:37 ◼   ► But yeah, this is clever.

01:04:39 ◼   ► And I don't think I have any particular problem with it.

01:04:42 ◼   ► But it definitely gets me a little--

01:04:44 ◼   ► I'm tugging at my collar just a little bit, hoping

01:04:46 ◼   ► and wondering if this is exposing data

01:04:48 ◼   ► that I don't want it to.

01:04:49 ◼   ► But I think we're in the clear here.

01:04:52 ◼   ► All right, tell me what's going on in Europe these days.

01:04:55 ◼   ► Or soon, I guess I should say.

01:04:56 ◼   ► It's not these days.

01:04:57 ◼   ► But allegedly, it will be happening soon.

01:04:59 ◼   ► This is a confusing story, because we

01:05:02 ◼   ► started seeing these stories earlier this week that, hey,

01:05:04 ◼   ► it was a Bloomberg, Germin rumor thing.

01:05:07 ◼   ► So Apple is preparing to allow third party app store

01:05:10 ◼   ► or whatever things, because they're doing this.

01:05:13 ◼   ► They're going to have to do it to comply with this new EU

01:05:16 ◼   ► regulation.

01:05:17 ◼   ► What is it called?

01:05:18 ◼   ► The DMA, the Digital Markets Act, right?

01:05:20 ◼   ► Yeah, Digital Markets Act, right.

01:05:22 ◼   ► And the story was Apple is working on this,

01:05:24 ◼   ► and it's going to be in iOS 17.

01:05:27 ◼   ► And as Apple has said in past interviews,

01:05:29 ◼   ► obviously they will comply with the laws

01:05:31 ◼   ► that they have to comply with, right?

01:05:34 ◼   ► That's where the confusion begins.

01:05:36 ◼   ► Okay, what does Apple have to do to comply with this law?

01:05:41 ◼   ► And the more I read about this,

01:05:43 ◼   ► the more it seemed to me that either

01:05:45 ◼   ► I don't understand this law at all,

01:05:47 ◼   ► or this law is really dumb

01:05:51 ◼   ► and is not gonna have the intended effect.

01:05:53 ◼   ► It might be both.

01:05:54 ◼   ► - It's a little column A, little column B, I reckon.

01:05:57 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:05:58 ◼   ► So digging into this, Ben Thompson's analysis

01:06:02 ◼   ► was that one of the important things in this law

01:06:06 ◼   ► is that it says Apple has to allow third party

01:06:10 ◼   ► applications to be installed or to allow third party stores.

01:06:13 ◼   ► So it has to either allow sideloading or third party app

01:06:16 ◼   ► stores.

01:06:16 ◼   ► And his interpretation was that you can do one or the other.

01:06:19 ◼   ► So for Apple to comply, they can either allow you to sideload,

01:06:21 ◼   ► which means allow you to install applications without going

01:06:24 ◼   ► through the app store, or allow third party app stores.

01:06:28 ◼   ► so like Epic could have their own app store

01:06:30 ◼   ► where they sold their games, right?

01:06:32 ◼   ► But then other people read that same text and say,

01:06:33 ◼   ► "No, this is saying you need to allow both of them.

01:06:36 ◼   ► Like people can either do A or B,

01:06:37 ◼   ► but you have to allow both of them."

01:06:39 ◼   ► But even setting that aside,

01:06:41 ◼   ► and you keep reading the text, it's like,

01:06:43 ◼   ► "Okay, but what does this actually mean?

01:06:44 ◼   ► Does that mean that Apple has to allow this,

01:06:47 ◼   ► but then they can't charge money?"

01:06:48 ◼   ► Well, no, it seems like they can charge money.

01:06:50 ◼   ► "Okay, does it mean that Apple has to allow this,

01:06:52 ◼   ► but then they don't have any control

01:06:54 ◼   ► of what's in those stores?"

01:06:55 ◼   ► Well, no, Apple can ask to see everything

01:06:56 ◼   ► that's in the stores and be able to approve them.

01:06:58 ◼   ► okay, but does this mean that Apple can't stop someone

01:07:00 ◼   ► from having a third party store?

01:07:01 ◼   ► No, maybe it means that Apple's allowed to tell you

01:07:03 ◼   ► whether you're allowed to have a third party store or not.

01:07:06 ◼   ► It's like all past leave through Apple,

01:07:08 ◼   ► and there's no way to avoid getting Apple's permission

01:07:11 ◼   ► to do something and also paying them

01:07:13 ◼   ► probably the same amount of money you're already paying them

01:07:15 ◼   ► all so they can comply with the law.

01:07:16 ◼   ► So that in the end, this doesn't increase competition

01:07:19 ◼   ► or make anybody's lives better.

01:07:20 ◼   ► All it does is let Apple say,

01:07:22 ◼   ► yes, we are compliant with the law,

01:07:24 ◼   ► and yes, we understand that nobody likes it

01:07:26 ◼   ► and it hasn't proved anything for anybody,

01:07:27 ◼   ► but it's because you made a dumb law.

01:07:30 ◼   ► - First of all, I think we have not seen anything yet

01:07:34 ◼   ► with what Apple's gonna do in response to the DMA.

01:07:38 ◼   ► Is anything else like this,

01:07:39 ◼   ► is the DMA gonna be the way it is now?

01:07:43 ◼   ► Is it gonna be changing over time?

01:07:44 ◼   ► Is the US or other places gonna do similar laws

01:07:48 ◼   ► and how will they be similar and how will they not be?

01:07:50 ◼   ► - Will this just be in Europe and it's totally irrelevant

01:07:52 ◼   ► to anybody who doesn't live in the EU?

01:07:54 ◼   ► - Right, and there's so many angles of this.

01:07:57 ◼   ► This was actually very, very well covered by Ben Thompson

01:08:00 ◼   ► in today's Stretecore daily update.

01:08:02 ◼   ► If you are a Stretecore subscriber,

01:08:04 ◼   ► definitely check that out.

01:08:05 ◼   ► If you are not, you should honestly really consider it.

01:08:07 ◼   ► It's a very good buy and there's a lot of good stuff there.

01:08:10 ◼   ► Anyway, so there's multiple angles to the DMA

01:08:15 ◼   ► and we probably can't talk about all of them today.

01:08:16 ◼   ► Like one of them is basically message

01:08:20 ◼   ► and FaceTime interoperability requirements

01:08:22 ◼   ► and that's I think a whole can of worms

01:08:25 ◼   ► that is probably practically impossible, but anyway.

01:08:29 ◼   ► - I thought they backed off on that one.

01:08:31 ◼   ► - No, I think it's still in it.

01:08:31 ◼   ► - I thought it didn't make it into the thing.

01:08:33 ◼   ► - I think it did.

01:08:34 ◼   ► Anyway, so we're gonna set that aside.

01:08:36 ◼   ► Let's just talk about the App Store stuff today.

01:08:38 ◼   ► So I agree with Ben's take that the wording certainly says

01:08:42 ◼   ► that they can allow sideloading or alternative App Stores,

01:08:47 ◼   ► but you know, and let's assume

01:08:49 ◼   ► that they won't have to do both.

01:08:51 ◼   ► As a user of this platform and as a developer

01:08:54 ◼   ► on this platform, I would greatly prefer,

01:08:58 ◼   ► if they have to do one or the other,

01:09:00 ◼   ► I would greatly prefer them to do sideloading

01:09:02 ◼   ► and not alternative app stores.

01:09:04 ◼   ► Which, you know, they could easily technically do that.

01:09:06 ◼   ► They could just say, all right, well,

01:09:07 ◼   ► we will allow third-party apps to be sideloaded,

01:09:09 ◼   ► like from Lynx or whatever,

01:09:11 ◼   ► similar to enterprise provisioning, how that works now.

01:09:14 ◼   ► But third-party apps can't themselves

01:09:16 ◼   ► install other third-party apps.

01:09:18 ◼   ► That would be greatly preferable to me

01:09:20 ◼   ► as a user, as a developer.

01:09:22 ◼   ► I don't want to have to deal with other app stores.

01:09:25 ◼   ► Side loading itself brings enough gotchas

01:09:28 ◼   ► and possibilities for weirdness

01:09:31 ◼   ► without as many downsides as third party app stores.

01:09:36 ◼   ► I do not want to deal with third party app stores.

01:09:39 ◼   ► I don't wanna have to list my app in third party app stores.

01:09:42 ◼   ► I don't want to have to install third party app stores

01:09:45 ◼   ► 'cause who's gonna be the app stores?

01:09:48 ◼   ► It's gonna be big companies.

01:09:50 ◼   ► To leverage big apps they already own,

01:09:52 ◼   ► to get people to install their store

01:09:53 ◼   ► so they can have more control over more apps

01:09:56 ◼   ► and more of the economy.

01:09:56 ◼   ► So think Facebook.

01:09:58 ◼   ► Say you're gonna be required to install Instagram

01:10:02 ◼   ► and the Facebook app and WhatsApp

01:10:04 ◼   ► from the Facebook app store.

01:10:06 ◼   ► Sorry, excuse me, the meta app store.

01:10:09 ◼   ► And these things will require the meta.

01:10:10 ◼   ► And then once you have the meta app store installed,

01:10:13 ◼   ► oh, well actually you can get all these wonderful

01:10:16 ◼   ► great deals here in exchange for selling your soul.

01:10:19 ◼   ► And then if that becomes popular,

01:10:20 ◼   ► am I gonna have to list Overcast there?

01:10:22 ◼   ► Are developers gonna have to list our apps

01:10:24 ◼   ► in these other stores?

01:10:25 ◼   ► So that's a whole thing that both,

01:10:28 ◼   ► as a user and a developer, I don't want any of that.

01:10:31 ◼   ► Like that to me is not good.

01:10:34 ◼   ► Side loading I think takes care of the competitive,

01:10:39 ◼   ► or the anti-competitive angles here.

01:10:42 ◼   ► Apple has refused to self-regulate.

01:10:46 ◼   ► They have acted extremely anti-competitively.

01:10:48 ◼   ► they continue to act extremely anti-competitively,

01:10:51 ◼   ► and so this is being forced upon them,

01:10:53 ◼   ► and it's entirely 1,000% their own fault.

01:10:57 ◼   ► But sideloading, I think, takes care of

01:11:00 ◼   ► a lot of that anti-competitive stuff.

01:11:03 ◼   ► It removes a lot of that pressure.

01:11:05 ◼   ► - Does it take care of any of it, though?

01:11:07 ◼   ► Like, that's my question about all those requirements.

01:11:10 ◼   ► I look at all of them, and kind of like

01:11:12 ◼   ► Grubber's most recently posted thing,

01:11:13 ◼   ► I look at them and I look at what I've seen

01:11:15 ◼   ► of the regulation they're trying to comply with,

01:11:17 ◼   ► And it's like the things that we're trying to solve here,

01:11:21 ◼   ► these competitive problems, don't appear to be solved at all

01:11:24 ◼   ► by side loading according to this requirement.

01:11:27 ◼   ► Because like, OK, so side loading allows,

01:11:29 ◼   ► say there's some app that Apple can't put on.

01:11:30 ◼   ► The one I always think of, the one that Jason Snell also

01:11:32 ◼   ► thought of in his six colors thing is emulators.

01:11:35 ◼   ► We all love emulators.

01:11:36 ◼   ► If you were playing with that Palm emulator recently,

01:11:39 ◼   ► why can't there be a cool Palm emulator on the App Store,

01:11:42 ◼   ► or an old Atari emulator, whatever?

01:11:43 ◼   ► Apple just doesn't allow emulators.

01:11:45 ◼   ► Nintendo emulators, all sorts of emulators

01:11:47 ◼   ► that you could get for the Mac and the PC,

01:11:49 ◼   ► but Apple tends not to allow them on the App Store,

01:11:51 ◼   ► either for intellectual property reasons

01:11:54 ◼   ► or just because they don't want you to have

01:11:56 ◼   ► JIT compiled code or all sorts of stuff like that.

01:11:59 ◼   ► So great, sideloading will allow those things

01:12:01 ◼   ► to be on the store, right?

01:12:03 ◼   ► But then you get into the details and it's like,

01:12:04 ◼   ► okay, well, so sideloading,

01:12:07 ◼   ► how are things gonna get sideloading?

01:12:08 ◼   ► Well, Apple probably won't allow things to be sideloading

01:12:10 ◼   ► unless they're notarized.

01:12:11 ◼   ► Okay, well, who notarizes them?

01:12:12 ◼   ► Well, Apple notarizes them.

01:12:14 ◼   ► And who's allowed to notarize an app?

01:12:15 ◼   ► - Well, someone who has an Apple developer account.

01:12:17 ◼   ► And so there's like 17 different places

01:12:18 ◼   ► where Apple can prevent something from being sideloaded,

01:12:21 ◼   ► not by saying you're not allowed to sideload it,

01:12:23 ◼   ► by saying, oh, you can't be a developer.

01:12:25 ◼   ► Oh, I'm not gonna notarize that app.

01:12:27 ◼   ► And they would still be complying with the letter of law.

01:12:29 ◼   ► And the other thing is like, okay,

01:12:30 ◼   ► I wanna be able to buy Kindle books from the Kindle app.

01:12:33 ◼   ► I don't wanna, you know, Apple doesn't let me do that

01:12:35 ◼   ► because I have to pay 30%.

01:12:36 ◼   ► Well, now I'll be able to sideload the Kindle app

01:12:38 ◼   ► and get around that.

01:12:39 ◼   ► Well, no, you won't, because Apple still is gonna want

01:12:40 ◼   ► 29.9% of the in-app purchase that you make,

01:12:45 ◼   ► and Apple will still control whether you're even allowed

01:12:47 ◼   ► to load that application by deleting your developer account

01:12:52 ◼   ► or denying you notarization services.

01:12:55 ◼   ► It's almost like the people who wrote this law

01:12:57 ◼   ► didn't understand how Apple was going to react to it,

01:13:00 ◼   ► didn't see all the ways that Apple

01:13:01 ◼   ► could technically comply with this

01:13:02 ◼   ► without giving any of the things

01:13:04 ◼   ► that it's supposed to be providing.

01:13:06 ◼   ► More competition, cheaper payment processing,

01:13:09 ◼   ► more kinds of app that Apple doesn't allow.

01:13:12 ◼   ► Like, I don't know if Apple's going to do this

01:13:13 ◼   ► and be this particularly evil,

01:13:15 ◼   ► but looking at it, it seems like if they wanted to,

01:13:18 ◼   ► they could have all the same control,

01:13:20 ◼   ► and the only thing this law would do,

01:13:22 ◼   ► to Marco's point, is make it worse for users,

01:13:24 ◼   ► because now there's confusion,

01:13:25 ◼   ► and people are gonna try to make alternate app stores, and--

01:13:28 ◼   ► - And there'll be worse security, you know,

01:13:29 ◼   ► in the sense that, like, you know,

01:13:32 ◼   ► obviously some of this is OS-level security,

01:13:35 ◼   ► but like, you know that the version of the Facebook apps

01:13:39 ◼   ► from the meta store, they're gonna be a lot creepier.

01:13:44 ◼   ► They're gonna stay running in the background all the time.

01:13:46 ◼   ► They're gonna take more of your data.

01:13:48 ◼   ► - That brings up the notarization thing again.

01:13:51 ◼   ► So lots of things you can't do on iOS

01:13:53 ◼   ► because Apple doesn't let you use private APIs.

01:13:55 ◼   ► There's all sorts of cool things that your phone

01:13:56 ◼   ► and iPad can do that are APIs

01:13:58 ◼   ► that Apple hasn't published yet.

01:13:59 ◼   ► And so you technically shouldn't be using them

01:14:01 ◼   ► and the next OS update could break them.

01:14:03 ◼   ► But if you really, really wanna do, you could do it.

01:14:06 ◼   ► But you can't because Apple scans your app

01:14:08 ◼   ► for the use of these private APIs.

01:14:09 ◼   ► Even my stupid Switch class app,

01:14:12 ◼   ► I wanted to know on what edge of the screen the dock is,

01:14:16 ◼   ► even if it's hidden,

01:14:19 ◼   ► and there's no API for that in the public API on macOS,

01:14:22 ◼   ► but there's a private API for it.

01:14:24 ◼   ► And so I tried submitting a version of Switch class

01:14:26 ◼   ► that used the private API,

01:14:27 ◼   ► and sure enough, the automatic scanner said,

01:14:29 ◼   ► "Ah, ah, ah, you can't use that framework

01:14:31 ◼   ► "for knowing where the dock is.

01:14:32 ◼   ► "That's not public.

01:14:34 ◼   ► "Naughty app, sorry."

01:14:35 ◼   ► So you're like, okay, well now with sideloading,

01:14:38 ◼   ► with third-party app stores, I can just use that API.

01:14:40 ◼   ► They can't stop me to do it, right?

01:14:42 ◼   ► And I could do that on the Mac.

01:14:43 ◼   ► I would just have to be outside the Mac App Store, right?

01:14:44 ◼   ► But let's say on iOS where you don't have that option.

01:14:47 ◼   ► Now I have that option.

01:14:48 ◼   ► But the notarization service that Apple runs

01:14:50 ◼   ► may scan your app for private API usage

01:14:52 ◼   ► to prevent security problems.

01:14:54 ◼   ► And they won't notarize your app.

01:14:56 ◼   ► And that will make your app harder to sideload

01:14:58 ◼   ► or more scary warnings,

01:14:59 ◼   ► or maybe you won't be able to do it at all.

01:15:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I think that we, as both the tech press

01:15:06 ◼   ► and as enthusiasts of this platform,

01:15:09 ◼   ► we see a law like this coming through

01:15:11 ◼   ► and the reporting that Apple's gonna do something

01:15:14 ◼   ► maybe to comply with it.

01:15:15 ◼   ► We see this as, oh great, they're gonna do

01:15:18 ◼   ► what is most obvious to us, which is, okay,

01:15:22 ◼   ► we give up, you win, here's sideloading

01:15:24 ◼   ► on alternative app stores.

01:15:25 ◼   ► But what's much more likely to happen,

01:15:27 ◼   ► if you look at what Apple has actually done

01:15:31 ◼   ► in relation to various laws that have been passed

01:15:34 ◼   ► around the world in recent years.

01:15:36 ◼   ► You look at the Korean thing,

01:15:38 ◼   ► you look at the Japan Fair Trade Commission,

01:15:41 ◼   ► you look at the, what was the dating app on?

01:15:44 ◼   ► Was that Norway, where was that?

01:15:45 ◼   ► - Netherlands.

01:15:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, right.

01:15:48 ◼   ► So you look at these, at how they've complied with these,

01:15:51 ◼   ► and it has been, first of all, fighting them tooth and nail,

01:15:56 ◼   ► and then when they do finally "comply",

01:16:00 ◼   ► they do it in the most narrow

01:16:03 ◼   ► an extraordinarily middle finger way possible.

01:16:06 ◼   ► Because look, Apple does not think

01:16:07 ◼   ► they're doing anything wrong here.

01:16:08 ◼   ► They don't think that they deserve any less

01:16:12 ◼   ► than what they're getting.

01:16:13 ◼   ► They don't think they should be forced to compete

01:16:15 ◼   ► in the areas that these are trying

01:16:16 ◼   ► to force them to compete in.

01:16:17 ◼   ► They believe they are entitled to a third

01:16:20 ◼   ► of everyone's money that goes through a phone

01:16:22 ◼   ► no matter what it's doing.

01:16:24 ◼   ► The only reason they don't collect everything,

01:16:26 ◼   ► like they don't collect 30% of your bank transfers

01:16:29 ◼   ► because they can't, but otherwise,

01:16:31 ◼   ► like whatever they can--

01:16:32 ◼   ► - They want to.

01:16:33 ◼   ► - I know, whatever they can, they do.

01:16:35 ◼   ► And they are so far up their own butts about this stuff,

01:16:40 ◼   ► they really don't think they're doing anything wrong.

01:16:41 ◼   ► And so they feel fully entitled

01:16:44 ◼   ► to extract every single thing they can.

01:16:46 ◼   ► So here's what they're actually probably going to do.

01:16:49 ◼   ► They're not gonna just do this and say,

01:16:51 ◼   ► "All right, we give up, hands up, you win, everyone here,

01:16:54 ◼   ► "you can sideload your emulators if you want to."

01:16:56 ◼   ► No.

01:16:57 ◼   ► What's actually much more likely to happen

01:17:01 ◼   ► is first of all, anything they loosen here

01:17:04 ◼   ► will most likely only apply in the EU.

01:17:07 ◼   ► So that's big step number one.

01:17:10 ◼   ► Like all of us here in the US and everyone else,

01:17:12 ◼   ► like tough luck, you're not gonna have it on your phones.

01:17:16 ◼   ► Then they're gonna say, okay,

01:17:18 ◼   ► if you actually want a developer account

01:17:22 ◼   ► that can create and sign apps that will run this way,

01:17:26 ◼   ► you're gonna have to find some other way

01:17:28 ◼   ► to pay us the 27% that you owe us.

01:17:30 ◼   ► And the law might say, oh, they aren't allowed

01:17:34 ◼   ► to pull it from in-app purchases or whatever,

01:17:38 ◼   ► but the law doesn't say that Apple has to charge $99

01:17:41 ◼   ► for a developer's certificate.

01:17:42 ◼   ► So Apple can go right back and say, okay, actually,

01:17:45 ◼   ► we now have enterprise pricing for these certificates.

01:17:49 ◼   ► And that means that we're gonna look into your pockets

01:17:52 ◼   ► and see how much money you have,

01:17:53 ◼   ► and we're gonna take 27% of it.

01:17:55 ◼   ► - And they could just ask you to do that auditing yourself.

01:17:57 ◼   ► Like, this isn't what they did with the dating app?

01:17:58 ◼   ► - Yeah. - They would just say,

01:17:59 ◼   ► - Basically, hey, you have to tell us

01:18:01 ◼   ► how many people went through your in-app purchase system

01:18:04 ◼   ► that's not ours and give us 27% of it.

01:18:06 ◼   ► - Exactly, that's exactly what they do with dating apps

01:18:08 ◼   ► and part of the contract is they reserve the right

01:18:10 ◼   ► to come audit your finances themselves

01:18:12 ◼   ► and or have their auditors do it.

01:18:14 ◼   ► So there's no way Apple's gonna just do the right thing here

01:18:19 ◼   ► because Apple doesn't believe it's in the wrong.

01:18:21 ◼   ► Apple believes it is 1,000% in the right

01:18:25 ◼   ► and therefore they are going to fight this tooth and nail

01:18:29 ◼   ► and they're gonna be massive (bleep) about it

01:18:32 ◼   ► because that's what they do with the App Store money stuff.

01:18:36 ◼   ► They're massive (bleep)

01:18:37 ◼   ► and again, they are so self-righteous.

01:18:41 ◼   ► They think they're doing the right thing here

01:18:43 ◼   ► because the reality is, you know,

01:18:45 ◼   ► Apple as a company largely does pretty good things

01:18:48 ◼   ► a lot of the time in a lot of areas.

01:18:50 ◼   ► They feel a lot of self-righteousness

01:18:52 ◼   ► because they are often righteous.

01:18:55 ◼   ► And that bleeds unfortunately into areas where they're not.

01:18:58 ◼   ► And this is probably the biggest one of those areas

01:19:02 ◼   ► where we see their worst behavior.

01:19:03 ◼   ► So this is not gonna be some easy thing

01:19:06 ◼   ► where we just kinda get what some of us want

01:19:09 ◼   ► and that's the end of it.

01:19:11 ◼   ► This is gonna be fighting tooth and nail

01:19:14 ◼   ► for outcomes that nobody is really going to get

01:19:17 ◼   ► what they think they're gonna get.

01:19:19 ◼   ► It's gonna, again, look at the dating thing,

01:19:21 ◼   ► the dating apps thing in the Netherlands.

01:19:23 ◼   ► Did anybody actually benefit from that besides Apple?

01:19:26 ◼   ► - That's what I'm saying.

01:19:27 ◼   ► When they write these laws,