00:00:00 ◼ ► Casey, I just reloaded this page. I know we're not up to this yet. Tom, why do you give him bad ideas, Marco?
00:00:05 ◼ ► All right, so we should probably explain what's going on. I mean, maybe, all right, so I'm gonna try to make myself feel okay about this, knowing how much crap you got last year, but I still think it's a little bit... a little bit weak sauce. We had an agreement.
00:00:28 ◼ ► This is the payback for two consecutive years of making me donate under duress, because last year, I was recording analog, and you two numb nuts were like, "Oh, we have to donate now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now."
00:00:41 ◼ ► I'm pretty sure that's an exaggeration of what happened. I do not recall typing the word "now" multiple times in a row.
00:00:49 ◼ ► Well, here's what happened. So we were talking about the St. Jude, you know, Real AFM raising money for St. Jude during Child Cancer Awareness Month, which is now September, and we're gonna talk about that in a second.
00:01:02 ◼ ► But so we do donations as ATP hosts. We do three donations, and we try to do them roughly at the same time. So they show up three in a row on the page. And we try to match amounts, and we decided ahead of what the amount is going to be. And there it is.
00:01:16 ◼ ► So last year, Casey apparently was recording analog at the time we decided to do this. And under duress, while meeting to allegedly type, Casey and Aaron Liss typed Casey asterisk Aaron Liss, which was followed by not only us giving him crap, but all of you gloriously giving him crap in your own donation names and notes that followed.
00:01:42 ◼ ► So we ended up, you know, obviously, it's amazing to raise a bunch of money for a really good cause. But to do it while being able to troll Casey is extra amazing.
00:01:50 ◼ ► So we had decided, you know, a couple weeks ago, all right, we're gonna we're gonna make our donations before the show on a certain date. And that date was a week from now. Next week's show is when we decided we were going to do it. And we had it in the calendar and everything like that's when we're gonna make our donations right before the show. And then we'll then we'll talk about the you know, give it a big push or in the show and everything.
00:02:11 ◼ ► Well, 15 minutes ago, as we record, 15 minutes ago, john, you know, writes in the chat like, oh, it's weird how the page laid out like some complaint about the page layout, showing his donation at the top of the screen a week early.
00:02:26 ◼ ► I was the top donor. And I was like, you know, I mean, what about worse is as the show approached, I would have been like, guys, are you gonna do the donation? Anyway, I got it wrong. I was right in the calendar. I think I'm the one who put it in the calendar. But the reminder on my the reminder on my phone came up and it said up time to donate. And I just went and did it blindly because I do whatever my phone tells me to do.
00:02:49 ◼ ► Apparently, whenever I however I see read that reminder into reminders, I got the right the date wrong. So I just did what my phone told me I did it a week early. I'm sorry. But anyway, I did it. I posted the funny thing about the UI, which made it look like I donated twice. But I didn't donate twice. It was just once. And then Marco saw what I had posted, and he immediately donated. And so now it's two against one. And now it's now Casey.
00:03:11 ◼ ► Which in and of itself was fine. But like I was in the middle of like getting kids ready for bed and so on and so forth. And all of a sudden my phone is blowing up about how we're donating right now. And I'm like, what the hell we said next week. But okay, whatever. That's fine. And so as I'm running over to my computer, which I think obviously this is not a big deal. But in the heat of the moment, I was like, and so now I'm doing it under duress again. And we all saw how well that went last year. So I run over to my computer. And as I'm sitting down to do the donation,
00:03:41 ◼ ► somebody in the chat says, as punishment, you should donate $7,000 and one cent just to kick John off the top since it appears to not count a tie. If I did that, I'd be a jerk. But if Casey does it, it's funny. So I kind of did that and did $7,001.
00:04:01 ◼ ► So the most amazing part of this. So obviously, Casey's now on top kicking John off, which I think is appropriate for what John did. But I wasn't doing something malicious. On the other hand, Casey's was not an honest, malicious act. But also, between because there was this delay as Casey was, you know, I guess putting your kids to bed is important. So because there was this small delay between our donations, someone else got in right between mine and Casey's called not star
00:04:40 ◼ ► All right. Well, so let's let's have some unity here. How much has ATP the show donated to St. Jude this year?
00:04:53 ◼ ► So as as I forget what we donated last year, I want to say it was $20,000 in some between the three of us. And this year, we thought, well, that seems silly because we were donating what $6,333 and 33 cents apiece.
00:05:12 ◼ ► So we each donated well, two thirds of us donated. We get out with a straight. Two thirds of us donated $7,000. And your favorite and best host donated $7,001.
00:05:25 ◼ ► So yeah, so as much as we're poke fun at each other, I really do need to lock it up and get serious for a second.
00:05:32 ◼ ► September, as Marco had mentioned, is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. And for the third consecutive year, Real AFM, of which we are all apart, even if this show isn't strictly speaking a part of it, you know, it is there in spirit, if not by URL.
00:05:45 ◼ ► So we are all trying to raise money for third consecutive year for St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.
00:05:51 ◼ ► So what is St. Jude? It's this it's this hospital that's in Memphis, which is where Stephen Hackett lives. And it is of the belief that, you know, hey, if kids can still get die from cancer, then we need to still try to figure out ways to prevent that from ever happening ever.
00:06:05 ◼ ► And so what's even greater about St. Jude is that St. Jude families pay nothing for health care there.
00:06:14 ◼ ► I believe I believe that like some some travel costs can be covered on occasion, food can be covered in many occasions. They really take care of their families.
00:06:23 ◼ ► And if you live in a country that makes sense, as in not America, this probably sounds like, yeah, okay, whatever.
00:06:33 ◼ ► And so Stephen's family has probably received millions of dollars of health care, and they have paid literally nothing for it.
00:06:41 ◼ ► That being said, it's because of donors like the three of us and like all of you, that these families never receive a bill for treatment for travel for food, etc.
00:06:51 ◼ ► Because as St. Jude says, all the family should have to worry about is helping their child stay alive.
00:06:56 ◼ ► So for a little bit of context, the average cost to treat just one kid with acute lymphoblastic leukemia, which is the most common form of childhood cancer is $203,000.
00:07:10 ◼ ► So with that said, to make this possible, about 80% of the funds necessary to sustain and grow St. Jude must be raised each year from donors like you, listener to my voice.
00:07:19 ◼ ► So if you have $1 to your name that you can send to kids that are fighting cancer and their families, please, please, if you can, stjude.org/ATP, I'll spell it out for you.
00:07:40 ◼ ► Obviously, the three of us have given what I'd like to believe is a fair bit of money over the years now.
00:07:52 ◼ ► I will personally send you, no matter where you live in the world, I will personally use the United States Postal Service.
00:08:11 ◼ ► I will send you a small batch of small batch ATP stickers wherever you may be in the world.
00:08:31 ◼ ► So if you can beat that by even one cent, send me a screenshot, send me your address, let me know, and I will put some ATP stickers in the mail.
00:08:40 ◼ ► Additionally, I don't remember if we mentioned this last week, but if you donate $100 or more, you get a bespoke sticker pack from the relay folks that have all sorts of fun stickers in it.
00:08:51 ◼ ► Only one winner is going to, like the Hunger Games, only one winner is getting our stickers.
00:09:04 ◼ ► You're just competing with the people who contact us and say, hey, I donated this amount.
00:09:11 ◼ ► Do they have to donate more than, they don't have to donate more than those other people who don't know about ATP, right?
00:09:16 ◼ ► They just have to be, right now, they just have to be Casey and then they have to compete with the other ATP listeners.
00:09:21 ◼ ► But if someone donates a million dollars, but they're not an ATP listener, that doesn't count, right?
00:09:26 ◼ ► But I will say, unless the other two veto this, if you are at any moment the highest donor, even if you don't end the month at the highest donor,
00:09:34 ◼ ► if you are at any point, if you are the highest donor, send me your address and screenshot just in case, you know, the donor list changes.
00:09:42 ◼ ► Even if you don't persist as the highest donor, if somebody donates $7,002 right now and you want to send me your name and information, I will send you stickers.
00:09:55 ◼ ► Very generous of you, but I feel like the game theory would say like, you want people to go as high as possible knowing it's their only shot, but that's fine too.
00:10:08 ◼ ► Well, the best way would probably be Twitter because I hate email, but if you need to email me, you can find my email address on my website.
00:10:23 ◼ ► I know you might not know what Casey's Twitter handle is or how to spell it, but if you can find his website also very difficult, then maybe you can get some contact information there.
00:10:33 ◼ ► And we know that like, you know, obviously not everyone is going to be able to donate this, this kind of large sum.
00:10:38 ◼ ► We also know that, you know, any, every dollar helps, you know, so even if you can just donate a dollar, great, donate a dollar.
00:10:45 ◼ ► You can, you know, we know also our rough audience demographics and we also know that you can probably do more than that.
00:10:51 ◼ ► And, you know, one thing to keep in mind, I say this every year that in roughly probably two weeks or so, there's going to be an Apple event and they're going to unveil a new like $1,300 phone that we're all going to preorder.
00:11:02 ◼ ► And when you're ordering a $1,300 phone that you might not necessarily need and you're thinking about, oh, do I, should I tack on like an extra 70 bucks for the newest case?
00:11:11 ◼ ► Because it's slightly different that now I need a new $70 case or a new $150 AppleCare plan or any other, you know, look at how much you're going to pay in that case.
00:11:23 ◼ ► Think about like donate that kind of amount or more because if you're willing to just kind of casually, you know, spend that for this frivolous hobby that we all have of buying gadgets that we, you know, quote need in finger quotes, but like really do we really need to buy the new one?
00:11:40 ◼ ► So if you're, if you're able to do stuff like that, I encourage you to also be generous towards this because this is a really good cause.
00:11:47 ◼ ► And yeah, give them like, you know, a few hundred bucks if you can or, you know, whatever you can do, you know, give it a shot.
00:12:07 ◼ ► And we are not that far away. What is it? $196,000 for the year or for this month would be a total of a million dollars across all three years that Relay has been doing this.
00:12:30 ◼ ► Do we have the same curse that like Connected did with photo sharing services or photo management services?
00:12:40 ◼ ► Like, I mean, it's we talked about finding product recommendations and mentioned Wirecutter.
00:12:44 ◼ ► It's because it's a thing that people find valuable, unlike IMDB, which does not deserve to be in any results for movie stuff because their website is terrible.
00:12:56 ◼ ► They explain their reasoning and, you know, they have affiliate links to products, which is how they make money.
00:13:03 ◼ ► They're the type of site that I would be willing to pay for because they provide a valuable service.
00:13:06 ◼ ► And the plans are you can do it for five dollars, five dollars every four weeks, which is different than monthly.
00:13:11 ◼ ► But anyway, if you're looking for a product, you can just say, I'll just pay the five bucks and then cancel.
00:13:16 ◼ ► Now, that said, The New York Times is somewhat notorious in our circles as being one of the few, quote unquote, good companies that makes it next to impossible for you to unsubscribe.
00:13:25 ◼ ► You have to like call someone on the phone or do like a text chat with them or something and they try to convince you to stay, which is crappy.
00:13:32 ◼ ► And if you already have a New York Times premium digital subscription, you get it for free.
00:13:36 ◼ ► So, you know, I think they can go behind a paywall because they have a service that people are willing to pay for.
00:13:51 ◼ ► One of us needs to go first. Whoever needs to buy an appliance first, sign up for it and see how hard it is to cancel.
00:13:58 ◼ ► Yeah. And I think really the upgrade pick is having Marco Arment in your life who has also bought the particular item in question, say like a flashlight or something.
00:14:17 ◼ ► And then tell me, speaking of Wirecutter experience, the best blender is not a wasteland?
00:14:26 ◼ ► It was about trying to Google do a Google search for best blender and just finding all these terrible SEO type results and not trying what you want and saying if you type best Blender Wirecutter, then you'll get the Wirecutter's recent review of Blenders and it will be more informative and useful than just typing best Blender.
00:15:05 ◼ ► Everything above the fold, meaning within the viewport of my reasonably sized window, is an ad.
00:15:19 ◼ ► Then I've got Consumer Reports ad and recommendations and sublinks and a bunch of other pictures.
00:15:25 ◼ ► So literally every single thing I can see in my browser window after having best Blender into Google.com is an ad.
00:15:33 ◼ ► And then another box that tries to where Google tries to answer the question and then good housekeeping and Forbes and Homes and Gardens and CNET and Consumer Reports again.
00:15:54 ◼ ► Maybe Google is a little bit of a wasteland though, because nothing that's not an ad above the fold is pretty crappy.
00:16:09 ◼ ► Although to be fair, as a most of the time DuckDuckGo user who jumps over to Google when I can't find what I'm looking for there.
00:16:20 ◼ ► So Google might be like, you know, the least crappy of the options that are out there, but they're all I think just the web is a wasteland right now.
00:16:37 ◼ ► But I'm seeing more and more stuff that I don't want to see and fewer and fewer things that I do want to see, which is very frustrating.
00:16:44 ◼ ► I do still love DuckDuckGo, but golly, there's more and more and more ads every every year.
00:17:00 ◼ ► For over 20 years, Fastmail has been a leader in email privacy because they believe that customers are the people to be cared for, not products to be exploited with ads.
00:17:10 ◼ ► So if you're ready to move away from Gmail to a host that actually values your privacy and wants your business, go to Fastmail.
00:17:28 ◼ ► But if you you know, they have all these great shortcuts for very popular platforms like iOS and Mac OS.
00:17:45 ◼ ► As you read email, your sidebar can connect you to your calendar, contacts and email attachments.
00:17:52 ◼ ► You can support a custom domain if you want to have email hosted to custom domain, which is this is how I host all the email for any of my domains that have email.
00:18:01 ◼ ► For just five bucks a month, you can bring up to 100 personal domains and up to 600 email aliases at no extra charge.
00:18:07 ◼ ► Also, after 20 years of building products people use every day and introducing new modern standards for email that actually power many email services, Fastmail is bringing their point of view to a new podcast.
00:18:17 ◼ ► Digital Citizen hosts in-depth conversations that tackle the big issues of the Internet in a thoughtful, positive way.
00:18:23 ◼ ► Each episode leaves you with their CTO's takeaways, which will put you on a practical path towards a better digital life.
00:18:37 ◼ ► Fastmail lets you be the customer and you be the expert, putting you in control to do things your way.
00:18:41 ◼ ► Stop paying for email with your privacy and be part of the very best in email at Fastmail.
00:19:05 ◼ ► We got a little bit of feedback about this, about how some of the things we said weren't 100% accurate.
00:19:17 ◼ ► And we just described the general case of hashes, which is a thing that takes a bunch of different inputs and maps them to a much smaller, finite number of outputs.
00:19:24 ◼ ► Right. So the whole world of possible files of any size and make a function that's going to map each one of the contents of those files
00:19:43 ◼ ► Right. In a more detailed view, there are different kinds of hashes for different purposes.
00:19:48 ◼ ► One particular kind of hash that a lot of people brought up as an objection, but that we didn't talk about specifically is called a cryptographic hash.
00:19:54 ◼ ► In certain cases, when you're trying to do encryption, you want a hash that has certain properties because there are lots of different ways that you can map from an infinite number of inputs to a finite number of outputs.
00:20:16 ◼ ► One is that it's infeasible to generate a message that yields a given hash value, in other words, to reverse the process.
00:20:22 ◼ ► Right. So if we tell you the hash value is this number and I say, you go get me something that hashes this value, it's really hard to do.
00:20:29 ◼ ► Right. And two, it's infeasible to find two different messages with the same hash value.
00:20:33 ◼ ► Right. So if I find one message hashed to this, find me another message that hashed to the same thing.
00:20:38 ◼ ► And we know there are collisions because it's a hash function, but it's hard to find them.
00:20:50 ◼ ► Like the purpose of this hashing algorithm is to take two different images and get the same hash.
00:20:59 ◼ ► What I mean by that is, remember, they're not just doing a one to one comparison against their database of pictures.
00:21:13 ◼ ► Right. So for this thing to operate correctly, multiple images that are different from each other are supposed to map to the same hash.
00:21:31 ◼ ► But the way this hash function works is we want it to tell us that these three images, even though they are technically different byte for byte, they are the same picture, just modified slightly.
00:21:50 ◼ ► But like the demands of this neural hash are for it to be to have some kind of intelligent matching and collisions are what we want when it functions correctly.
00:22:12 ◼ ► And then keeping in the same theme, Jonathan Trott wrote, if governments can mandate Apple make code changes to CSAM detection, then they can
00:22:20 ◼ ► mandate making code changes to photo object recognition, machine learning and always on OCR.
00:22:26 ◼ ► So in other words, I think what Jonathan's point here is that, you know, they could say, oh, if you detect, you know, certain phrases in what's being shown in the camera or if you if you detect certain things that they don't want you to see, then you could potentially be instructed to alert the authorities about it.
00:22:47 ◼ ► Yeah, the ML one is the most salient because people like I don't want my phone scanning all my pictures.
00:22:58 ◼ ► It's scanning every single one of your pictures and categorizing them using machine learning model.
00:23:02 ◼ ► The only difference, obviously, with the same thing is that it also sends some data back to Apple about it.
00:23:08 ◼ ► Right. But but if if people's hang up is I don't want my device device scanning a bunch of my pictures or I don't want that capability to exist.
00:23:16 ◼ ► Where my my my device is passively scanning all my photos all the time and categorizing them.
00:23:28 ◼ ► They already have a completely open ended, totally not audited or controlled ML service running over all your pictures that probably expands in every release to identify more and more things.
00:23:40 ◼ ► So, yeah, like I alluded to in the first episode, we talked about this trusting Apple is a key component of of having an iPhone.
00:23:49 ◼ ► If you don't trust Apple, don't get an iPhone because Apple makes the OS and the hardware.
00:23:52 ◼ ► They can do whatever they want with all your stuff and they can inform you about it or not.
00:24:01 ◼ ► Like you can't expect the average user to know everything that's going on inside their phone.
00:24:37 ◼ ► It was basically like a technical paper saying, hey, if you can exploit the lowest levels of a system,
00:24:43 ◼ ► like, for example, if you can mess with the compiler that's used to build the operating system or whatever,
00:24:48 ◼ ► like you can't trust anything like it's basically, you know, the computers are a big stack of stuff, right?
00:25:21 ◼ ► So in the continued effort for Apple to own gold themselves as often as they possibly can when it comes to PR,
00:25:33 ◼ ► We're not going to go too deep into this, but I've been instructed by a dear colleague that I need to read the following.
00:25:38 ◼ ► So from The Verge, Apple has barred employees from creating a Slack channel to discuss pay equity.
00:25:44 ◼ ► Apple HR said that while the topic was, quote, "Aligned with Apple's commitment to pay equity," quote,
00:25:54 ◼ ► Yeah, that's where I said last time, like, oh, you can probably come up with some reason to not allow it.
00:26:09 ◼ ► Continuing from The Verge, quote, "Slack channels are provided to conduct Apple business and must advocate the work deliverables or mission of Apple departments and teams," quote.
00:26:17 ◼ ► The employee relations representative told employees the company's rules for the in-office chat app say that, quote,
00:26:22 ◼ ► "Slack channels for activities and hobbies not recognized as Apple employee clubs or diversity network associations, or DNAs,
00:26:39 ◼ ► Apple employees have popular Slack channels to discuss Fun Dogs, which has more than 5,000 members,
00:26:44 ◼ ► gaming with more than 3,000 members, and Dad Jokes, which I want to be a part of, which has more than 2,000 members.
00:26:54 ◼ ► The cat and dog channels are not part of official clubs, and all of these channels were specifically created to talk about non-work activities.
00:27:06 ◼ ► Yeah, I'm just like, what a flimsy excuse of like, "Oh, yeah, no, we're totally for pay equity,
00:27:11 ◼ ► but here's some, like, weird letter of the law rule about, 'Oh, you just can't do it in Slack, sorry, it's because of our Slack terms of use.'"
00:27:17 ◼ ► And just like App Store review, it's not like you can go, "But what about the Dad Jokes channel?"
00:27:26 ◼ ► It's like, "This is the new part of Apple's DNA, arbitrarily, you know, enforced or not rules, and by the way, you're not allowed to ask us."
00:27:47 ◼ ► Seriously, I'm telling you, Apple is just nothing but PR own goals for the last month or two.
00:27:58 ◼ ► This was with regard to how things are stored within, like, Apple Music and Spotify and whatnot, and what is an album, what is a track, what is a recording, and so on.
00:28:34 ◼ ► "Every recording, track, and album is attributed to an artist, but there are a lot of corner cases.
00:29:01 ◼ ► There are usually many slightly different versions of an album to be released in different
00:29:12 ◼ ► Attributes of the audio, like live or radio edit or remix, can also be supplied at the recording
00:29:20 ◼ ► And then this individual gave us a link to Music Brains, which is musicbrains.org, which
00:29:34 ◼ ► So this tells me that Spotify, unlike Apple, did spend some time thinking about the data
00:29:40 ◼ ► model for music and all the various choices they have to make and how things are connected
00:30:15 ◼ ► Hopefully they do better than Apple in terms of tracking these things, but I still feel
00:30:19 ◼ ► like yes, the data model is very complicated, but there are more complicated data models
00:30:23 ◼ ► and just like spend a week maybe whiteboarding it before you just go ahead and point your
00:30:38 ◼ ► Visit linode.com/ATP and see why Linode has been voted the top infrastructure as a service
00:30:51 ◼ ► their ease of use and their setup, it's clear why developers have been trusting Linode for
00:31:07 ◼ ► or build it all from scratch and manage everything yourself with supported centralized tools
00:31:17 ◼ ► GPU compute instances, as well as block storage, Kubernetes, and their upcoming bare metal
00:31:23 ◼ ► This is frankly one of the reasons I use Linode because they're always an amazing value.
00:31:27 ◼ ► I've been a customer of theirs, I think for about a decade, and it's been an amazing value
00:31:33 ◼ ► I know how important value is because like, you know, I run a lot of servers and so that,
00:31:37 ◼ ► you know, those numbers add up and Linode always has amazing price to performance ratio
00:31:45 ◼ ► You know, their stuff is fast, they have good support, they have a great API, they have
00:31:55 ◼ ► If you create a free account there with your Google or GitHub account or your email address,
00:32:07 ◼ ► Linode makes cloud computing fast, simple, and affordable, allowing you to focus on your
00:32:33 ◼ ► So, you know, unsurprisingly, he's super into technology and computing devices and he's
00:32:54 ◼ ► the language of Minecraft command blocks and a lot of the various things you can do with
00:33:00 ◼ ► And so he's interested in learning how to code enough that he can start actually making
00:33:06 ◼ ► So I was wondering if the audience had any feedback, and John possibly as well, because
00:33:10 ◼ ► I know you went through some of this, at least if not all of it, but I'm curious, like, what's
00:33:37 ◼ ► I already have on his list of things to try that we're gonna give a shot, Swift Playgrounds
00:33:54 ◼ ► Yes, I've seen that video about how people get ripped off and I will show it to him when
00:34:06 ◼ ► But he wants to be able to make games and so I have concerns of like I don't wanna like
00:34:10 ◼ ► just dump him right into Swift as a game platform because that's, I mean, I wouldn't even do
00:34:19 ◼ ► 'Cause he wants to make game worlds where like, okay, you're gonna do this, go to this place,
00:34:27 ◼ ► These like multi-level game logic things that I feel like if I start them in a lower level
00:34:32 ◼ ► language I'm afraid that he might like just kinda get intimidated by how much work that
00:34:51 ◼ ► Like if he wants to make something in Roblox as a game and then in Swift Playgrounds or
00:35:15 ◼ ► And so anyway, so I'm curious like what people have done for that recently, like what's out
00:35:26 ◼ ► And so like I don't know, I looked at Hopscotch, I downloaded it, it might be too like young
00:35:36 ◼ ► But anyway, so if anybody has any like really good stories about like what language or environment
00:35:41 ◼ ► you were able to start a kid on who wants something that's not just a toy, like he wants
00:35:50 ◼ ► And so let me know if you have any good experiences because I learned programming on QBasic and
00:35:58 ◼ ► I thought briefly I'm like what if I just give him basic somehow, like whatever environment
00:36:17 ◼ ► I even thought like maybe I should like get him an Apple II and just like boot it up and
00:36:30 ◼ ► 'Cause the more basic it is, lowercase b basic, the more basic it is I think the more accessible
00:36:36 ◼ ► it is and the more kids can get into it even if they can't necessarily make the next Minecraft
00:36:54 ◼ ► try different things and we kind of have a feedback loop from him and see what he likes
00:37:01 ◼ ► So anyway, I appreciate any stories or input you can provide on like what should kids learn
00:37:06 ◼ ► today, what makes a good balance between letting them do the kind of stuff they want to do
00:37:15 ◼ ► - The deal you're making though is that whatever you come up with, whatever you like, I want
00:37:19 ◼ ► you to come back to the show please and let us all know because I'm probably, hopefully
00:37:23 ◼ ► not too far away from wanting to answer the same question and granted it'll be a little
00:37:27 ◼ ► different then but I would love to hear what you guys end up really really liking or not
00:37:32 ◼ ► - And once again, I have seen the Roblox video about how they rip everybody off, I don't
00:37:38 ◼ ► - So here's a little bit of stories from my experience trying to get my kids into programming
00:37:45 ◼ ► and I think what you said about Q-basic, that probably led me down the wrong path because
00:38:12 ◼ ► We all know in the show that sort of the foundational programming knowledge is very important and
00:38:22 ◼ ► rare the kid, especially young kid that wants to learn how to program, it's only a means
00:38:35 ◼ ► in the forefront of my mind is my, the thing I wanted to do like make the computer do the
00:38:43 ◼ ► They could print like a VIC-20 can print text and colored blocks the size of characters
00:39:00 ◼ ► Like it wasn't like oh that's just I'm just learning to program or learning conditionals
00:39:18 ◼ ► of programming and I bet other kids would like to do it too but I think the only reason
00:39:22 ◼ ► I was satisfied that and probably the only reason Marco was satisfied with QBasic is they
00:39:36 ◼ ► QBasic was like the DOS one, just a big blue screen of text and it had like you know, built
00:39:41 ◼ ► in documentation so I could just hop over and look up every function and make you know,
00:39:44 ◼ ► games like you know, really basic you know, text in and out games like you were just talking
00:39:51 ◼ ► I eventually got to that in my later years of playing with it but it was initially just
00:40:11 ◼ ► So when I tried to pitch my kids and things, I started with things like Hopscotch and a
00:40:30 ◼ ► stuff and letting you feel like hey, I'm making a cool looking character move around but you
00:40:41 ◼ ► I didn't really push it that hard but I always put it in front of them, see if they ran to
00:40:44 ◼ ► it, see if it would grab them and they never got hooked and we all, all three of us know
00:40:53 ◼ ► It's like you can see when programming gets its claws into somebody and it you know, it's
00:41:02 ◼ ► You'll find yourself just sucked in and just constantly working on this program and just
00:41:19 ◼ ► I think what will work with a lot of kids and the reason Roblox and everything are exciting
00:41:23 ◼ ► is fastest way to do the thing and unfortunately for kids today, do the thing is make like
00:41:47 ◼ ► They take care of the networking, the multiplayer, the roster, the 3D graphics and you know,
00:41:52 ◼ ► and you can start off with a bunch of canned stuff and make something that is recognizable
00:41:56 ◼ ► to modern kids as a game and that can get them hooked on programming because they start
00:42:02 ◼ ► using like the pre-made models and the pre-made everything but now they want to add some kind
00:42:07 ◼ ► When you hit this blocks, I want it to explode and so now they're into like, okay, well is
00:42:11 ◼ ► there somewhere I can do that in the UI or do I have to type some kind of scripting thing?
00:42:14 ◼ ► I start to learn about conditionals and variables and then they're off to the races because
00:42:27 ◼ ► So the playdate is coming out soon and they have a web-based dev thing where you can have
00:42:32 ◼ ► no programming skill and make a game that will run on playdate and also it has a scripting
00:42:37 ◼ ► I'll link to an article in the show notes where Nevid Mergin again talks about how this
00:42:53 ◼ ► He might want to make a game that he can show to his friends and they can play on their
00:43:01 ◼ ► PCs at home and so this playdate pulp thing is of no use and no interest to Adam because
00:43:15 ◼ ► For some kids it means it has to be a Minecraft mod because all my friends are in Minecraft
00:43:24 ◼ ► So I feel like that really is going to determine how you approach this and it could be Adam
00:43:33 ◼ ► Again, every kid is different, you'll find out but I think that is the tricky part about
00:43:37 ◼ ► this that even though we as programmers value programming in the abstract, I think it's
00:44:22 ◼ ► He played Minecraft like crazy, was not into making mods at all, had no interest, he just
00:44:26 ◼ ► wanted me to bang my head against trying to install the terrible mods that other people
00:44:35 ◼ ► And in that programming course he learned Swift and Java and he took the computer science
00:44:53 ◼ ► I said to try to look it up and what he determined is I think miners can have an app on the App
00:45:17 ◼ ► Not because of anything I did, not because of any of my attempts to encourage or support
00:45:25 ◼ ► On his own he decided at age 15 or 16 that he's going to look into programming and fast
00:45:31 ◼ ► forward a few years and he's spending hundreds of hours sitting in front of his laptop in
00:45:35 ◼ ► Xcode every three days coming out of his cave to ask me some question that I can't answer
00:45:58 ◼ ► I sent Marco a few screenshots where it looks a lot like Overcast because he was quote unquote
00:46:10 ◼ ► So my advice to Marco is let Adam lead you where he wants to go and if it turns out that
00:46:27 ◼ ► They can be led by what their parents do but at a certain point what their parents want
00:47:00 ◼ ► environment like it has this monochrome small screen, it has some of these really easy to
00:47:07 ◼ ► goals that they have of developing the playdate is like in addition to the available lower
00:47:17 ◼ ► That's certainly something that I'll be happy to explore with him once we get ours but I'm
00:48:13 ◼ ► I know you're not super into that but like you can do a lot of, I mean I don't have any
00:48:21 ◼ ► JavaScript and web pages and the advantages that has is that all his friends have access
00:48:27 ◼ ► Like it is a platform that everybody can access and you can write some pretty cool quote unquote
00:48:32 ◼ ► web based games you know with using web processing dot JS or all sorts of other stuff that my
00:48:58 ◼ ► His values I want to make a cool thing for me or his values I want to make a cool thing
00:49:01 ◼ ► to show off to my friends or his values like literally I want to learn about programming
00:49:31 ◼ ► going for like CS CPE or something equivalent is going to be computer science major in college.
00:49:47 ◼ ► So there are some cool schools with CE and actually I think Cornell lets you take computer
00:50:23 ◼ ► According to the Washington Post Apple loosens rules for developers in a major concession
00:50:29 ◼ ► The Wall Street Journal says that Apple set to let app developers alert users to alternate
00:50:37 ◼ ► The Verge says Apple finally agrees to let app developers communicate with their customers.
00:50:42 ◼ ► Finally CNBC says in major policy change Apple will allow developers to email customers about
00:51:09 ◼ ► So I don't think we really need to go that deep into this famous last words but basically
00:51:17 ◼ ► And it seems like the only people that really understood what was happening here were Bloomberg
00:51:21 ◼ ► where their headline is Apple settles with app developers without making major concessions.
00:51:33 ◼ ► Bingo that's like I look and we did we did a lot about this on Under the Radar this week
00:51:45 ◼ ► And I strongly even if you don't listen to Under the Radar normally I strongly recommend
00:52:10 ◼ ► Like we have some common themes about what we want and you know we have some communities
00:52:15 ◼ ► that are somewhat cohesive but it's a pretty big group of people with lots of different
00:52:41 ◼ ► I didn't even honestly frankly I didn't even know about this lawsuit until this press release.
00:52:46 ◼ ► So it's a class action lawsuit and the class is developers on the App Store and you know
00:52:51 ◼ ► the nature of class action lawsuits is that they are a big payday for the lawyers involved
00:53:08 ◼ ► a flimsy case I don't remember what the details were it was just something like oh the Apple
00:53:12 ◼ ► being unfair whatever but it seemed to observers that Apple was probably going to win it.
00:53:34 ◼ ► Well Apple put together a 100 million dollar fund to help app developers out and I think
00:53:39 ◼ ► they're going to like if you're in the class you can apply to essentially get like 3% of
00:53:53 ◼ ► You know if you make less than 1 million dollars in revenue per whatever and you apply to this
00:53:57 ◼ ► program and Apple approves you then instead of taking 30% of all your sales they'll take
00:54:02 ◼ ► So if you were in the class a developer and you choose to receive some of this money this
00:54:09 ◼ ► 100 million dollar pool would be divided up amongst all the people who asked all the people
00:54:30 ◼ ► Lawyers take 30% so a handful of lawyers get 30 million dollars you may possibly get up
00:54:41 ◼ ► Oh and by the way if you take the settlement if you take this money from Apple this piddling
00:54:48 ◼ ► never ever sue Apple for anything ever again like this whole big legal agreement it's like
00:54:57 ◼ ► wrong and you're not allowed to and you agree that the app store rules are fair and so on
00:55:02 ◼ ► and so forth there's all these all these sort of stipulations right so that's one thing
00:55:08 ◼ ► Second thing is Apple has clarified and again Ben Thompson and Sir Tucker you have to pay
00:55:20 ◼ ► forth on it but previously they had said app developers you cannot communicate with your
00:55:28 ◼ ► app that says hey customer enter your email address here and then and to sign up for my
00:55:37 ◼ ► address to say hey customer you gave me your email address and I just wanted you to know
00:55:47 ◼ ► be a rule where Apple said you couldn't do that and now Apple is clarifying that developers
00:55:57 ◼ ► of their iOS app but wait wait outside their iOS app yeah outside your iOS app well that's
00:56:03 ◼ ► not a concession no it's not really they're basically saying if you want to email people
00:56:07 ◼ ► and you already have their email address that you didn't get from the app that's fine thanks
00:56:10 ◼ ► Apple am I allowed to talk to the person sitting next to me or do I need your permission to
00:56:14 ◼ ► do that too it's like Apple's like you know we don't want you ever saying anything about
00:56:24 ◼ ► now you're allowed to it's fine you can talk you can talk to your friends we won't we won't
00:56:37 ◼ ► so that's clarified Apple also agreed to keep the small business program for at least three
00:56:42 ◼ ► more years which is nice but it's like wait a second there's an end to this program yeah
00:56:49 ◼ ► thing they didn't say one way or the other but they could say hey let's throw them bone
00:56:53 ◼ ► it's like oh if you're worried about this program going away it'll be here for at least
00:56:56 ◼ ► three more years and also Apple also agreed not to make the App Store search even worse
00:57:01 ◼ ► by doing things like unfairly unfairly waiting its own apps which is a thing that Apple totally
00:57:10 ◼ ► of its apps for a while and then reverse that so the Apple also agreed yeah we won't do
00:57:15 ◼ ► that anymore either aren't we great so yeah Apple gave basically nothing I mean a hundred
00:57:33 ◼ ► App Store Apple's apps so they can just say oh we're gonna rank them by usage there being
00:57:38 ◼ ► Apple's apps come out on top it's not artificially waiting that's that's a meritocracy yeah right
00:57:51 ◼ ► algorithm right it's the reason we didn't know that they had been unfairly waiting their
00:58:02 ◼ ► I think it just it's like a MySQL like query yeah so basically Apple didn't have to give
00:58:08 ◼ ► anything here and they didn't give anything and in some ways this like people saying well
00:58:12 ◼ ► you know what do you expect Apple's gonna win the case they're not gonna give any concessions
00:58:15 ◼ ► but it's actually a tricky situation for Apple because if you know you're gonna win like
00:58:19 ◼ ► I bet somebody thought if we do this 100 million dollar thing like that'll make us look good
00:58:23 ◼ ► but it doesn't it doesn't make it only makes them look worse than doing nothing like if
00:58:27 ◼ ► they had given no money it has been like well Apple won that case and didn't give anything
00:58:30 ◼ ► it's almost like a slap in the face the hundred million dollars when you know that the lawyers
00:58:34 ◼ ► take 30 million of it and then you're gonna get pocket change out of it and in exchange
00:58:39 ◼ ► you agree that Apple never did anything wrong on the App Store yeah I mean I think there's
00:58:47 ◼ ► like the legal ramifications and everything and and you know some of the strategy behind
00:58:56 ◼ ► though Apple was probably not going to lose this case if it went to trial Apple I think
00:59:04 ◼ ► bad for them in a number of ways to go to trial because then you start getting discovery
00:59:08 ◼ ► and you start getting these like controversial emails coming out and and Apple's executives
00:59:13 ◼ ► making asses themselves in the stand and so you just I think Apple learned hopefully like
00:59:21 ◼ ► a way to settle easy lawsuits like this so they don't even get that far it's better for
00:59:34 ◼ ► if I'm gonna if I'm going to accept it I don't know yet I have to look at like what it means
00:59:49 ◼ ► sue Apple for this same thing like it's like double jeopardy kind of thing we're like okay
01:00:02 ◼ ► us are gonna sue Apple like they have bazillions of dollars like no no individual on this podcast
01:00:17 ◼ ► it's mostly the optics it's not mechanically like oh you give up all these rights because
01:00:21 ◼ ► again we're never gonna sue Apple but it just seems like a slap in the face for what I assume
01:00:28 ◼ ► dumb luck for me but like all the money I've ever made in the App Store came during the
01:00:33 ◼ ► 30% times more or less and then the 15% like the the small business program happened after
01:00:47 ◼ ► and if I can only get 3% of that difference back for me it's like chump change it's like
01:00:51 ◼ ► 200 bucks or something so who cares right so I probably won't do it but part of I think
01:00:57 ◼ ► part of this like most class-action lawsuits in theory depends on how many people ask for
01:01:18 ◼ ► Okay Japan Fair Trade Commission closes apps investigation Apple will let developers of
01:01:25 ◼ ► website to set up or manage an account beginning early next year what oh my god this is big
01:01:36 ◼ ► blah blah blah Apple will also help developers of reader apps protect users when they link
01:01:47 ◼ ► While the agreement was made with the JFTC Apple will apply this change globally to all
01:01:54 ◼ ► We yeah so what that that has special meaning so while I think about how this actually might
01:02:00 ◼ ► be really big but um all right if we're reading it obviously you gotta like you know get around
01:02:05 ◼ ► Apple's PR spin here but this might this might actually be a really big deal but what they're
01:02:10 ◼ ► talking about reader apps means things like Netflix Amazon ebook you know Kindle app things
01:02:22 ◼ ► that they would allow you to like have externally purchased stuff in these apps and not use
01:02:33 ◼ ► whole category of apps so it's they've used this term reader apps throughout the App Store
01:02:37 ◼ ► rule evolution and it's grown like in scope over time so if this is what we think it might
01:02:43 ◼ ► be what this would basically be is like you know kind of everything but games basically
01:02:47 ◼ ► is what this would most likely mean in practice you know the big companies that are giving
01:02:58 ◼ ► be able to link out to make external purchases that well be a really big deal to set up to
01:03:11 ◼ ► the the third paragraph here about safe guidelines this is where it can get tricky so they're
01:03:18 ◼ ► saying you know before the change into effect next year Apple will update its guidelines
01:03:22 ◼ ► and review process to make sure users of reader apps continue to have a safe experience on
01:03:26 ◼ ► the App Store blah blah blah Apple will also help developers of reader apps protect users
01:03:32 ◼ ► when they link them to an external website to make purchases so that to me kind of sounds
01:03:37 ◼ ► like Apple's going to be heavily reviewing and probably have a lot of rules around like
01:03:43 ◼ ► if you link out for an external purchase what you can do there how you can do it what you
01:03:59 ◼ ► man this is I'm gonna like analyze every word of this to really know for sure what's going
01:04:04 ◼ ► on yeah we'll see well to that end to that end in the end of the second paragraph Apple
01:04:10 ◼ ► agreed with the JF TC to let developers of these apps share a single link to their website
01:04:17 ◼ ► to help users set up and manage their account so do they get like a single like literally
01:04:22 ◼ ► one link Netflix.com slash sign up or whatever it could be through like the associated domain
01:04:28 ◼ ► system like they could actually so you know so right now apps have these the concept of
01:04:34 ◼ ► and they open up the app instead of the website and you can you can you have a way for an
01:04:39 ◼ ► Apple system to kind of you know verify between an app and a website or web domain like I
01:04:49 ◼ ► system and have like a field somewhere that says like this is my purchase page or whatever
01:05:00 ◼ ► boy I don't I mean this is all like you know shot in the dark here maybe they could have
01:05:02 ◼ ► some way like you know how they can manage payments kind of kind of centralized control
01:05:13 ◼ ► a going to be a really big deal and be going to depend a lot on the implementation details
01:05:22 ◼ ► year you know hand wavy and maybe it's going to take maybe it's going to take until that
01:05:28 ◼ ► because this is kind of a big deal like then it might require some software updates infrastructure
01:05:33 ◼ ► building in addition to working out the rules and trying to settle down the regulators around
01:05:57 ◼ ► some set of rules like just I feel like their main skill set is finding where you hid the
01:06:01 ◼ ► link to netflix.com it is not once you get to let netflix.com figuring out if the website
01:06:07 ◼ ► complies with whatever rules they're going to make up or whatever so anyway we like this
01:06:11 ◼ ► this story is literally breaking news while we're recording the podcast so we apologize
01:06:15 ◼ ► if we got any wrong surely we'll talk about it more next week but it transitions nicely
01:06:20 ◼ ► I love by the way I love the concept of like we we just were saying how all the initial
01:06:26 ◼ ► headlines about the other thing were totally wrong so I really hope that we didn't just
01:06:32 ◼ ► Well we have an excuse we're getting it thrown at us in real time on a podcast we didn't
01:06:36 ◼ ► write an article and post it to the web about it we would have done a little bit more research
01:06:55 ◼ ► or content subscriptions specifically magazines newspapers books audio music and video so
01:07:13 ◼ ► this is not unprecedented that I believe the Google whatever store also has like you know
01:07:24 ◼ ► it sounds like that external purchases would be allowed to be used for these kinds of apps
01:07:29 ◼ ► but not games and other kinds and other stuff do you think that's a good compromise I think
01:07:35 ◼ ► it kind of is it really depends on the implementation obviously from Apple's perspective since we
01:07:39 ◼ ► know that like 85% of their profits or whatever come from games that you can do a lot of stuff
01:07:43 ◼ ► in the non-game part without hurting yourself too too much but historically Apple's been
01:07:48 ◼ ► like but why would we give up that 15% like why why would we even screw with like I know
01:07:55 ◼ ► giving up anything and the answer is because world governments are getting up on your business
01:07:59 ◼ ► and making you do it or like are threatening to make you do it the US government is doing
01:08:03 ◼ ► stuff this is the Japan trade commission and the other story we have in Korea where they're
01:08:12 ◼ ► so that app stores like Apple and Google have to allow alternate payment systems right this
01:08:18 ◼ ► bill it's it hasn't been signed into law by their president yet but it is it looks like
01:08:23 ◼ ► it's going to be right and so again a country you know somewhere in the world not in the
01:08:35 ◼ ► their app stores and you know what I was going to talk about before the Japan thing came
01:08:38 ◼ ► out it's like okay well if some country makes some law that you have to you know allow alternate
01:08:46 ◼ ► to websites do you just do it in that country or you do it do you do it everywhere and you
01:09:02 ◼ ► country it's much better to have one set of rules if you can possibly help it especially
01:09:12 ◼ ► governments are making Apple do what it previously wasn't doing on its own because various governments
01:09:17 ◼ ► think that the current competitive landscape for app stores is not great for the people
01:09:22 ◼ ► who live in those countries so they're passing laws to make these people do things and that
01:09:26 ◼ ► apparently is literally the only thing that will make Apple do this stuff either the threat
01:09:34 ◼ ► I thought this story about Korea was interesting because it's got response quotes from both
01:09:39 ◼ ► Google and Apple like here's what spokespeople from those companies had to say about the
01:09:43 ◼ ► idea that Korea says you have to allow alternate payment methods in the apps as a not in-app
01:09:47 ◼ ► purchase but some other way to pay for things inside your app right so go here's Google
01:09:53 ◼ ► just as it cost developers money to build an app it costs us money to build and maintain
01:09:57 ◼ ► an operating system in an app store oh so much money to run an app store where is Google
01:10:07 ◼ ► trying to build to maintain an operating system build an app store cry poverty Google all
01:10:14 ◼ ► right we'll reflect on how to comply with this law while maintaining a model that supports
01:10:33 ◼ ► system this is like soccer injuries I don't know how we're gonna do now that people can
01:10:39 ◼ ► use different payments we needed that cut of that money because I don't know where else
01:10:43 ◼ ► we would get money it's really confusing Google I don't know anyway Apple here's what Apple
01:10:50 ◼ ► says their response is very different in tone the proposed law will put users who purchase
01:11:04 ◼ ► controls will become less effective we believe that user trust in the app store purchases
01:11:12 ◼ ► four hundred eighty two thousand registered developers in Korea who have earned more than
01:11:31 ◼ ► going to take money out of the mouths of those hard-working Korean app store developers that's
01:11:36 ◼ ► what Apple says very different in tone they just go right to the dire consequences most
01:11:40 ◼ ► of which are you know mostly BS because the whole ask to buy group had a good post about
01:11:49 ◼ ► know as we just read in that Japan press release Apple can totally make any external payment
01:11:54 ◼ ► methods also feed into the ask to buy before approval like I can make an API for this is
01:12:00 ◼ ► the thing that Apple is able to do like payment anyway whether they do or not it's entirely
01:12:04 ◼ ► possible right the this story where is it from this is from the verge I think yeah this
01:12:10 ◼ ► story continues lobbyists for the two companies have reportedly argued to American officials
01:12:14 ◼ ► that Korean legislation violates a trade agreement as it seeks to control the actions of US based
01:12:19 ◼ ► companies so they're lobbying the US government to say we don't have to we don't have to follow
01:12:23 ◼ ► that Korean law right because we have a trade agreement with them and this violates the
01:12:30 ◼ ► thing says because it basically says you know you in Korea anyway you in your apps you're
01:12:35 ◼ ► allowed to collect payment through some way other than an app purchase now obviously already
01:12:39 ◼ ► iOS apps can collect payment not through an app purchase for physical goods and somehow
01:12:51 ◼ ► somehow that happens and we are not all just dead from fraud like we're gonna allow people
01:12:58 ◼ ► to enter credit card and Amazon.com the world will and how will people know what to trust
01:13:08 ◼ ► like it's fine right and also on top of that especially now you know what you can buy things
01:13:19 ◼ ► even have to enter your address you use Apple pay it Apple pay is a product that succeeds
01:13:24 ◼ ► based on its merits it's a convenient way to pay because we already have Apple accounts
01:13:29 ◼ ► they already have our address you do the little click you do touch ID whatever Apple pay right
01:13:35 ◼ ► and but Apple every time they talk about this is like you know I swear if you let anyone
01:13:39 ◼ ► enter a credit card or pay with anything other than app purchase the world will end it's
01:13:43 ◼ ► like the whole world outside of the app store is constantly buying stuff online with their
01:13:52 ◼ ► you know like would you think they'd be even more fraud of like oh you know I have to get
01:14:00 ◼ ► then once you touch you know what Apple never says but now you're touching our money because
01:14:11 ◼ ► to this Korean thing especially in light of the Japan announcement of maybe they're gonna
01:14:16 ◼ ► take the Korea thing and say well if it turns out we have to do it in Korea we'll do it
01:14:19 ◼ ► everywhere as well well we'll see but but either way I'm reading the Japan press release
01:14:25 ◼ ► a little more closely it seems less well you get fooled just like the verge well there's
01:14:30 ◼ ► an important detail in the Japan press release so it's in the second paragraph so you know
01:14:39 ◼ ► safe and easy user experience the app stores guidelines require developers to sell digital
01:14:42 ◼ ► service and subscriptions using Apple's in-app payment system here's the here's the important
01:14:54 ◼ ► okay so here's here's what this means so it's for sign up only yes what this what this means
01:15:05 ◼ ► and you are going to be allowed once this goes into effect to link people to your website
01:15:30 ◼ ► you how to purchase new ones but you can look at these books look at that how great are
01:15:38 ◼ ► it's gonna probably still be that but somewhere in the app they'll be allowed to link you
01:15:52 ◼ ► where you can buy ebooks and you'll see them in this app I bet that's the key thing like
01:16:05 ◼ ► to put a sentence there that says hey go to Amazon.com and buy Kindle books and when you
01:16:15 ◼ ► to people and they like I said they just had to figure it out on their own yeah my best
01:16:18 ◼ ► guess here is that so there's still there's definitely not you know using your saved Amazon
01:16:23 ◼ ► credit card to buy an e-book in the app except for maybe in Korea yeah actually that's true
01:16:28 ◼ ► yes in Korea that I believe by the wording of the laws we understand and I believe that
01:16:32 ◼ ► would be a expert especially allowed in Korea but what this is saying I think is we will
01:16:43 ◼ ► to then have people do stuff there if they want to but you're definitely not buying stuff
01:16:47 ◼ ► in the app using their system which is still an important change it's like that's still
01:16:56 ◼ ► part of the Korean law so the law is a thing that will will prevent major platform owners
01:17:10 ◼ ► payment systems which implies that that means you'll be able to use other payment systems
01:17:15 ◼ ► like it's no longer you can't say you have to use in-app purchase which leaves the door
01:17:18 ◼ ► open to other thing and some people have been questioning okay well what does Apple do like
01:17:21 ◼ ► do they have to build something whatever like if Apple wanted and this becomes a law and
01:17:26 ◼ ► Apple felt like they had to comply with it like all their lobbying efforts the US government
01:17:35 ◼ ► approve apps that do this because you can send an app to the app store app review right
01:17:39 ◼ ► now that has a little web form that it takes a credit card like this is not complicated
01:17:43 ◼ ► technology Apple doesn't need to do anything Apple probably should and will do something
01:17:48 ◼ ► like by making API's and so on and so forth right they'll comply with the letter of law
01:17:52 ◼ ► but say hey if you want to use alternate payment methods use this new API that will trigger
01:17:57 ◼ ► the parental controls and they asked to buy and you know we'll be able to collect analytics
01:18:01 ◼ ► on it and find out how bad we're doing against your payment you know like there are things
01:18:05 ◼ ► Apple could do but the thing about the Korean laws Apple doesn't need to build or do anything
01:18:14 ◼ ► down because believe me app developer in epic hell epic shipped it already with it behind
01:18:35 ◼ ► they have to choose are we just doing in this Korea are we doing it worldwide and it seems
01:18:40 ◼ ► potentially more damaging than the Japan thing now that we know more about it the Japan thing
01:18:50 ◼ ► details that we don't know the answers to in terms of how draconian is Apple gonna make
01:18:54 ◼ ► it are they gonna let you explain what the link is for why do you only get one link how
01:18:58 ◼ ► annoying are they gonna be during app review about getting your app through because Apple
01:19:06 ◼ ► Store but experience has shown that even though 100% legit right down the middle within the
01:19:12 ◼ ► rules thing can be very hard to get through app review because sometimes they just don't
01:19:15 ◼ ► understand or disagree about the reality of the app you've submitted to them well breaking
01:19:21 ◼ ► news as that since we began is there any new press releases travel besides the Japan one
01:19:33 ◼ ► App Store rule change during our show it's a Wednesday what are they understand whatever
01:19:42 ◼ ► we are brought to you this week by Squarespace start building your website today at Squarespace
01:19:51 ◼ ► with Squarespace Squarespace makes it very easy for anybody with any skill level to make
01:19:58 ◼ ► beautiful professional highly useful and awesome websites that simple usually making websites
01:20:04 ◼ ► you know if you were a nerd it was at least time consuming and if you weren't a nerd it
01:20:12 ◼ ► it super easy for anyone regardless of your skill level because there's no coding required
01:20:32 ◼ ► you start from an amazing place at Squarespace because all their templates are professionally
01:20:35 ◼ ► designed they look great on all devices all the time and then you can customize them to
01:20:40 ◼ ► fit your own preferences or branding or whatever you might need so it doesn't all look like
01:20:45 ◼ ► cookie cutter sites your site looks like your site because you've been able to customize
01:20:48 ◼ ► it with all these amazing tools to have your colors your branding your arrangement of stuff
01:20:56 ◼ ► it although frankly it's so easy you probably won't need their support but it's there if
01:21:00 ◼ ► you need it they're award-winning they're really good and you don't have to worry about
01:21:08 ◼ ► high loads if you get a lot of traffic from somewhere they take care of all that for you
01:21:12 ◼ ► see for yourself by starting a real free trial you can build the whole site without giving
01:21:22 ◼ ► make sure to go back there again squarespace.com/ATP use offer code ATP to get 10% off your first
01:21:28 ◼ ► purchase that's squarespace.com/ATP code ATP thank you so much to Squarespace for sponsoring
01:21:37 ◼ ► so a week or two ago in the show notes in the section that we keep for potential aftershow
01:21:48 ◼ ► topics the following appeared Marco bought two new cameras and then we were talking before
01:22:03 ◼ ► you think and it's more than two now actually it was two oh god did you buy like home security
01:22:09 ◼ ► cameras yes I did hey you figured it out all right good I want I want all the knowledge
01:22:14 ◼ ► you have about this because I want to do this on my at on whatever to my house but I haven't
01:22:19 ◼ ► done it yet okay so here's how I was hoping to trip up John with buying two new cameras
01:22:31 ◼ ► dissuaded me from buying those so I hope you have some stories that are more encouraging
01:22:35 ◼ ► that what I heard about those so here here's here's the deal here so you know as I mentioned
01:22:40 ◼ ► you know I kind of live in a in a party beach town and as a result you know we have things
01:22:45 ◼ ► like casual bike theft all the time we also have you know we've because it's a party town
01:22:51 ◼ ► in the summertime you definitely get people you know like coming onto your property and
01:23:01 ◼ ► they're teenagers or or worse it's just like you know it's certain things you kind of want
01:23:06 ◼ ► to discourage and a lot of people around here have cameras and so I thought you know what
01:23:12 ◼ ► let me see I'll at least put a camera like where we park our bikes and in this area that
01:23:19 ◼ ► left there by strangers and we've caught people enjoying each other there a few times and
01:23:25 ◼ ► so like okay so you know let me put up some cameras and maybe that'll you know make the
01:23:29 ◼ ► people go somewhere else. So I've had a little bit of experience before with nest cams we've
01:23:45 ◼ ► delivered you know and we could like you know make sure we bring them in or whatever else
01:23:52 ◼ ► for a while we would we put one like in the bedroom just in case like somebody broke in
01:23:57 ◼ ► and who knows right which has never happened but we that's kind of the context of how we're
01:24:01 ◼ ► using them. So the nest cameras we don't have the current models we have we have whatever
01:24:06 ◼ ► the nest cams were that that were available like four years ago so the nest cams we have
01:24:11 ◼ ► are admittedly very out of date but at the time they were something like 200 bucks each
01:24:26 ◼ ► with nest because it first of all nest as a like software and services company has just
01:24:34 ◼ ► been going so far down the tubes in recent years I believe I mentioned the show a little
01:24:39 ◼ ► while ago that I ripped out all the nest thermostats in this house and replaced them all with the
01:24:43 ◼ ► echo bee home kit compatible ones because I was just so tired of dealing with nest crap
01:24:47 ◼ ► like their stuff just is very unreliable it's hard to set up their web service is down all
01:24:52 ◼ ► the time they they're making this weird transition to thread radios that has a lot of bugs in
01:25:02 ◼ ► up and get them on the network and so I'm just like I'm done with nest I'm so done with
01:25:09 ◼ ► has always been a little bit creepy and like when I first bought their stuff they weren't
01:25:13 ◼ ► but anyway so nest I wasn't super happy with I also know from having nest cameras for the
01:25:25 ◼ ► that you know you will record video footage but I also know that their object detection
01:25:29 ◼ ► and people detection is really bad it's really unreliable I get false alarms all the time
01:25:34 ◼ ► like I have the camera that I have set up all the time from that's a nest in in another
01:25:39 ◼ ► location I get an alert every single day that there's movement detected in my room because
01:25:47 ◼ ► the sun moves and the sun moves very slowly throughout every day and you would think that
01:25:52 ◼ ► that nest would accommodate for this and maybe design their algorithms to account for the
01:26:01 ◼ ► this regard but the old ones they literally like alert me every day that the sun has moved
01:26:06 ◼ ► at about the same time every day and then this is I've tried like a little bit different
01:26:10 ◼ ► positions of the camera it doesn't matter at all like that's it always happens so anyway
01:26:15 ◼ ► not super thrilled with nest nest is also somewhat expensive you know like for something
01:26:20 ◼ ► that you know if you want nest is only cloud-based like it's recording and streaming stuff to
01:26:30 ◼ ► for their cloud service to retain your stuff for however you need to be retained so those
01:26:35 ◼ ► are the downsides of nest so for this I decided let me look at other stuff if I if it ends
01:26:49 ◼ ► this is what apple keeps talking about in the keynotes and everything and it looks really
01:26:52 ◼ ► cool and I love the idea that I'm not sending my video to some like weird companies service
01:27:09 ◼ ► on did you really get a viper slap for Synology I sure did have the elegance of the bell I
01:27:22 ◼ ► operation to pick it up and you know you gotta hit it the other solution you have in your
01:27:27 ◼ ► house is your what do you call it what's your fancy Wi-Fi thingy you pick woody yeah you
01:27:35 ◼ ► is like I don't have a NAS set up here I don't want one and I'm trying to get myself out
01:27:41 ◼ ► of operating that kind of stuff like I don't want I don't want to deal with that my needs
01:27:44 ◼ ► are not big enough for that anymore and so I don't want that kind of thing also you know
01:27:50 ◼ ► the cameras that are that are made for these kind of things are like they're like you know
01:28:01 ◼ ► ubiquity security cameras so maybe I don't have a sense of scale when I see them online
01:28:05 ◼ ► oh maybe I'll have to look but but the impression I got was that they were like you know bigger
01:28:16 ◼ ► and and the problem with Logitech Circle View is it's it's like weirdly backordered and
01:28:20 ◼ ► it's hard to get and there it was gonna be a long wait and so I decided to take another
01:28:24 ◼ ► risk also on the Eufy line EUFY this is Anker's home security brand so Eufy has a bunch of
01:28:32 ◼ ► options and some of them are home compatible some of them most of them aren't but I decided
01:28:49 ◼ ► Cams are like you know 150 to 200 bucks usually the Eufy Indoor Cams are $70 for a two-pack
01:29:04 ◼ ► outdoor sort of and that sort of is important the Logitech Circle View is outdoor compatible
01:29:22 ◼ ► you have to you can mount the camera in the in the elements but then you have to run the
01:29:27 ◼ ► cable to somewhere that's inside or sheltered because I was thinking about with your house
01:29:32 ◼ ► I would not want to drill any holes in your house and I have just me right just yeah so
01:29:41 ◼ ► I definitely wouldn't do that I also I'm only trying to cover a couple of small areas here
01:30:02 ◼ ► in practice so first of all the Eufy HomeKit support is terrible it does not work reliably
01:30:13 ◼ ► and what you find out when you when you hook it up to HomeKit is that only a small subset
01:30:18 ◼ ► of the camera's features are actually supported if it's in HomeKit mode so I would I would
01:30:23 ◼ ► not recommend the Eufy cameras for HomeKit I did eventually as I was playing with these
01:30:29 ◼ ► over the last few weeks my Logitech circle views did eventually come in and so I mounted
01:30:40 ◼ ► Eufy I set it up in just its own app and the Logitech I set up and yes I did put a Eufy
01:30:56 ◼ ► yeah well because the Eufy ones that are outdoor compatible they weren't shipping yet like
01:31:05 ◼ ► thing electronics that aren't waterproof outside where there's water you're like well the other
01:31:14 ◼ ► and I can put it under a shelter and so practically practically disposable so so yeah so I have
01:31:25 ◼ ► good these are and I have the Eufy running only through its own app now and what you're
01:31:28 ◼ ► saying about the Eufy is that it they don't have well I guess I think they do have a cloud
01:31:32 ◼ ► service but you don't have to use their cloud service they you can view their cameras remotely
01:31:40 ◼ ► set up the IP connection but but your camera is not recording to their cloud your camera
01:31:46 ◼ ► has local storage like you you put a micro SD card on it or some of the other ones have
01:31:59 ◼ ► is I've thought about this like with the storage question and I know why people don't want
01:32:04 ◼ ► like their private footage from like especially inside their house going up to a cloud thing
01:32:19 ◼ ► smart thieves are but it's like look you just yank the camera off the wall and now you've
01:32:33 ◼ ► all set and if it's in your house same deal if they break into your house they can just
01:32:42 ◼ ► nothing they can do your house that prevents the recording from happening never mind that
01:32:45 ◼ ► having a recording of someone breaking into your house means nothing because the police
01:32:48 ◼ ► are never gonna do anything about it you're never gonna get your stuff back but just let's
01:32:51 ◼ ► pretend I'll get to that's not the case I'll just but yeah you're right I mean and this
01:32:55 ◼ ► is why I think homekit secure video is an interesting option because homekit is streaming
01:33:00 ◼ ► it to the cloud but here's a key difference for homekit secure video it is not a constant
01:33:05 ◼ ► recording it is event based so it like it doesn't record 24/7 to the cloud it's looking
01:33:11 ◼ ► for motion and if it detects motion then it records you know for a some brief amount of
01:33:17 ◼ ► time until it stops you detecting motion so you have only events so one thing I was curious
01:33:22 ◼ ► to see it's like well how responsive are they like if somebody walks into this area real
01:33:31 ◼ ► and and send that to me or not and and so and if you actually want continuous recording
01:33:47 ◼ ► will do it if it's an option it's off by default but so anyways that's an option you have with
01:33:51 ◼ ► those you don't have that option with homekit secure video basics here the image quality
01:33:56 ◼ ► on the modern cameras the the eufy and the logitechs is great like this is one of those
01:34:00 ◼ ► areas where like the the progress of technology I can't believe the eufy image quality for
01:34:06 ◼ ► $70 for a two-pack it's really good the logitech circle view is a much more like almost a fisheye
01:34:12 ◼ ► view it's ultra wide I think it's actually 180 degree it's right there in the name circle
01:34:17 ◼ ► in a circle as we know is 180 degrees the front of every camera is a circle the opening
01:34:24 ◼ ► to the lens is a circle a circle is in profile not head on yes I know anyway and I swear
01:34:35 ◼ ► a joke and I think better of it let me just save myself I was trying to make a joke was
01:34:47 ◼ ► image quad is actually great as I said it's the new ones they're far better than whatever
01:34:50 ◼ ► my old nest cameras are which of course that makes sense that's like five years later the
01:34:54 ◼ ► ultra wide fisheye view of the logitech is nice in a small space but it's it's less useful
01:35:01 ◼ ► in if your camera is going to be like higher up or further away from the area you're looking
01:35:05 ◼ ► at and the problem with home kit secure video is that there's almost no cameras that support
01:35:10 ◼ ► it like there's only of it's like two or three models of cameras that are actually on the
01:35:14 ◼ ► market that support it and the logitech is the only outdoor one that's currently in the
01:35:19 ◼ ► market so that's that's a little bit you know the again welcome to homekit right like you
01:35:23 ◼ ► have less choice but I will say the logitech again the eufy it has homekit support officially
01:35:34 ◼ ► working like I can only get live view working through homecut on the eufy the logitech works
01:35:39 ◼ ► perfectly like it is exactly what I want so logitech circle view to homekit secure video
01:35:56 ◼ ► know not put it too far from some kind of sheltered area where you could have the power
01:35:59 ◼ ► adapter the video quality is great and one thing I noticed for a while and so I ran this
01:36:11 ◼ ► and adam we're going in and out of the area all the time occasionally somebody will creep
01:36:19 ◼ ► of this has happened a lot over the few weeks that I've had these cameras up and so I have
01:36:24 ◼ ► a good amount of data now and I can tell you that the person detection for them like the
01:36:30 ◼ ► motion and you can say like detect any motion or detect people or animals I think one of
01:36:49 ◼ ► time every time I would like go under to get my bike out or somebody else would go under
01:36:52 ◼ ► there I was notified on time every time and as far as I remember I had zero false positives
01:37:02 ◼ ► a person there so good on them like and there were also zero times where I went under there
01:37:07 ◼ ► and it didn't detect me so it seems like the the people detection for both for both eufy
01:37:13 ◼ ► and you know homekit secure video are it's great and it worked so much better than nest
01:37:25 ◼ ► you can configure it to put a thumbnail like a still thumbnail in the notification payload
01:37:32 ◼ ► so that when you get the notification on your watch or your phone or whatever you can pop
01:37:35 ◼ ► it up right there and you can see that eufy's app you can also install on a mac if you have
01:37:49 ◼ ► just shows up in the home app so for all the pluses and minuses that means the logitech
01:37:59 ◼ ► the home so like tiff was complaining that she's getting all these alerts but but I was
01:38:03 ◼ ► gonna say one of the things I always see about homekit video is they always show the picture
01:38:14 ◼ ► that happen you know I didn't actually see if that works there was never a time we were
01:38:18 ◼ ► watching tv when somebody did was under there so I have to be watching apple tv I assume
01:38:26 ◼ ► that and see if I can get it to work I don't know if that feature is actually out yet or
01:38:32 ◼ ► off like if you're watching tv that's the last thing that I want like sure by all means
01:38:43 ◼ ► I'm watching it's basically letting someone outside your house screw with your television
01:38:52 ◼ ► that there aren't just aren't a lot of settings and options there's some and the ones they
01:38:56 ◼ ► have do seem to work pretty well so I'm happy with that overall but also the eufy app has
01:39:03 ◼ ► I mean yeah it's it's what you'd expect from like a manufacturer making an app it's not
01:39:06 ◼ ► like the best ui but it works really well and the only the only thing that homekit really
01:39:12 ◼ ► outclassed it on is that the homekit notifications would have video clips instead of image clips
01:39:26 ◼ ► a brief video clip of what's going on so that's really nice so again the homekit just seems
01:39:32 ◼ ► like a little bit of an upgrade in like how well it integrates with your apple stuff obviously
01:39:41 ◼ ► camera but still that's really good and so I'm actually going to keep the eufy ones even
01:39:47 ◼ ► though I think I'm going to go all homekit for the outside needs with one little possible
01:39:53 ◼ ► change in the future which I get to in a second so a couple of weeks ago during recording
01:39:57 ◼ ► this show I got a notification on my watch that somebody was spotted under the deck and
01:40:13 ◼ ► I'm like oh god I don't want to deal with this oh my no I mean it wasn't you know quite
01:40:17 ◼ ► that bad but it would have I mean it would have gotten there it was going that direction
01:40:22 ◼ ► and so I'm like all right I'm like I don't I just want them to leave like I don't I don't
01:40:25 ◼ ► want to deal with this I don't want to like call the cops either and also I'm recording
01:40:35 ◼ ► go down there like turn the light on or something and eventually I learned she's not home and
01:40:44 ◼ ► that you can speak through the camera oh nice and I'm like okay great so I just I held down
01:40:51 ◼ ► my mute button here to you guys and I talked to the camera and I said something like you
01:41:09 ◼ ► didn't so if you like you know a few seconds later I said something so I'm like you leave
01:41:13 ◼ ► now or so I forget exactly what something like that then they got up and left why didn't
01:41:18 ◼ ► you just say I am watching you on my security camera and I would like you to leave like
01:41:23 ◼ ► you could say full sentences like you have to spell it out because they're highly motivated
01:41:33 ◼ ► like how clear the voice would be coming through you know I don't want it to sound just like
01:41:36 ◼ ► all right so I chose like few words you know anyway and I don't know what to say what am
01:41:42 ◼ ► I gonna do like and the other thing is I don't want to sound like a jerk because what if
01:41:46 ◼ ► they vandalize my house you know like I don't like it's like there's no good way out of
01:41:49 ◼ ► this right so anyway so you know they left and so all right fine you know problem solved
01:41:54 ◼ ► I didn't have to like involve the cops or go out there and interrupt the show or anything
01:42:05 ◼ ► know there were a number of occasions where we've seen people literally just walk up to
01:42:08 ◼ ► our house and like peer under it and like look around and then they see the camera they kind
01:42:12 ◼ ► of like run a little bit but the other day somebody came under the house where this where
01:42:16 ◼ ► the young couple was being that and some guy just comes under and like changes his bathing
01:42:27 ◼ ► like all right I have cameras they work it's fine but I wonder like was I better off not
01:42:36 ◼ ► knowing before like maybe like is this actually serving an actionable role here like am I
01:42:43 ◼ ► actually getting actionable information from these cameras and I'm not sure that I am like
01:42:55 ◼ ► a different story then I could try to bring these videos to the police and have what John
01:43:05 ◼ ► would be and the other problem is that people don't seem to be seeing the cameras so I think
01:43:12 ◼ ► what I actually want to do is add like motion lights I think that no no not motion like
01:43:22 ◼ ► and they have a little like cardboard television sets the furniture you don't need cameras
01:43:27 ◼ ► you just need like the shell of a camera like a little blown plastic thing that looks like
01:43:32 ◼ ► a camera they saw what you need what you need is signage you learned anything from if you've
01:43:37 ◼ ► ever done anything like an upstate New Yorker or whatever that say this area under surveillance
01:43:42 ◼ ► with a giant red arrow pointing to your fake camera right that might get people's leave
01:43:52 ◼ ► their lawn of like burglar you know if the cameras only work is it a turn if people know
01:43:56 ◼ ► they're there so you need signage yes well but again I don't want my house to look like
01:44:01 ◼ ► a prison and I don't want it and I don't want to be a jerk right so I'm trying to avoid
01:44:08 ◼ ► I don't I don't want to be a jerk I don't want to you know look like I'm a massive Republican
01:44:15 ◼ ► like I just want people to not be doing weird stuff under my house right so like what I'm
01:44:20 ◼ ► gonna try next is I just ordered the new Eufy camera that has a built-in light on the camera
01:44:28 ◼ ► that's an a real certified outdoor camera so John is happy so I ordered one of those I'm
01:44:38 ◼ ► two for 70 bucks or something so what tell us model numbers two for 70 bucks is the solo
01:44:42 ◼ ► indoor cam c24 and the the one I just ordered is the l20 yeah I think it's the l20 it just
01:44:57 ◼ ► actually don't want to video footage people doing stupid stuff under my house I just want
01:45:01 ◼ ► them to not do it or if they if they're if they're thinking about starting to do it maybe
01:45:04 ◼ ► they run away before they like leave you know liquor bottles and stuff behind so you know
01:45:09 ◼ ► that's that's the main goal here so I'm gonna try like some kind of motion light options
01:45:14 ◼ ► and and see if that does better because ultimately the cameras are working great but I'm not
01:45:51 ◼ ► came through it was really strong and so I was able as we were not here anymore because
01:45:55 ◼ ► we were evacuated I was able to monitor how my house was doing in the storm and that was
01:46:00 ◼ ► great I was very happy to have that ability and again to have that with no you know cloud
01:46:16 ◼ ► that's kind of the same thing though is your question about what value am I getting like
01:46:20 ◼ ► being able to see in real time as a lawn chair comes through your windows I mean I suppose
01:46:29 ◼ ► nothing you can do about it and you're gonna come back to your house and we know people
01:46:33 ◼ ► who were here including our contractor like we know people who could who could come and
01:46:44 ◼ ► up on our house like not like during the storm but like you know afterwards I can I can say
01:46:49 ◼ ► like oh you know we can't come back for another day or two or whatever like can you go you
01:46:54 ◼ ► know put plastic over that you know like I obviously hope that never happens but it does
01:46:58 ◼ ► provide a level of like peace of mind to be able to look directly at like here look here
01:47:08 ◼ ► not leaking yeah I guess it's better to know that it's safe like you want to know you want
01:47:12 ◼ ► a positive result if you have a negative result that doesn't really help it's almost like
01:47:22 ◼ ► and I kept I like woke up a couple times and checked the cameras and it's like a baby monitor
01:47:26 ◼ ► like you wake up you look at it you know it's like that's because when you because you're
01:47:29 ◼ ► nervous right so that's it made sense that's not the kind of thing that would be healthy
01:47:36 ◼ ► a hurricane like that's that's a big thing to do like that that helps a lot so I I definitely
01:47:43 ◼ ► will love keeping the indoor cams around for that kind of thing where you know if we can't
01:47:50 ◼ ► to have indoor cams I do not intend to have indoor cameras in my house all the time that's
01:47:54 ◼ ► that to me is not the kind of lifestyle that I want to leave but the outdoor cams hopefully
01:47:59 ◼ ► I can find some kind of balance with you know maybe motion light integration to serve as
01:48:04 ◼ ► the deterrent role that I want them to serve without being too oppressive yeah I feel like
01:48:17 ◼ ► under there to change your bathing suit and then you see the big sign with the arrow pointing
01:48:21 ◼ ► it says smile for the camera right and then the motion light comes on the one under your
01:48:24 ◼ ► house and hopefully you can also map the stuff under your house to point at the bike area
01:48:27 ◼ ► you know what I mean like no one can see that unless you are in fact trespassing and wandering
01:48:35 ◼ ► they are now the problem is they're too subtle now I know I know what I'm saying like you
01:48:48 ◼ ► underneath well but I also like I don't want like every time I go get my bike out I don't
01:49:17 ◼ ► right like these people are so obsessed with dogs not pooping on their lawn that they have
01:49:39 ◼ ► a day and that my whole family is going to like I don't want signs and be like look look
01:49:44 ◼ ► at the camera you're under surveillance like that's that's not the kind of thing I want
01:49:47 ◼ ► to do so that's why I'm hoping like I'm hoping a motion light setup combined with a visible
01:49:59 ◼ ► me it doesn't like you know make me feel like I live in a prison take a look at the the
01:50:08 ◼ ► the slack oh my god this is a whole paragraph yes very poorly written Casey would you like
01:50:14 ◼ ► to read this because because I feel like it is some of your my goodness I also like the
01:50:19 ◼ ► the dollar sign s that reminds me of you Casey would you like to do a dramatic reading here
01:50:23 ◼ ► hi we hope you're enjoying your dog walk just in an off chance you don't realize that what
01:50:33 ◼ ► assure you it does please keep your dog off our lawn if you still decide to let your dog
01:50:37 ◼ ► use our lawn please smile for the camera have a nice day they've got a comma splice they've
01:50:43 ◼ ► got dollar sign s and they've got a lot of attitude and can you imagine like having this
01:50:47 ◼ ► on your house so you see it all the time like that's that's not the kind of attitude like
01:50:53 ◼ ► I I just I don't want that kind of attitude you know and this is this gets into the same
01:51:10 ◼ ► anything to happen from having footage of something maybe if you're if you're the neighbor
01:51:16 ◼ ► it so what now you're going to sick the police on your neighbor you're gonna sue your neighbor
01:51:35 ◼ ► of what kind of life do you want to lead exactly yeah it's like I don't want like you don't
01:51:39 ◼ ► want if you're so obsessed with dogs not pooping on your lawn but then you spend time in your
01:51:44 ◼ ► day reviewing footage of dogs poop on your lawn and planning your law planning your lawsuits
01:51:50 ◼ ► right or whatever you're whatever you're gonna do like it turn them into the police like
01:51:53 ◼ ► it's just yeah you're not gonna be a popular neighbor and you may want to pick your battle
01:51:57 ◼ ► slightly different and honestly I walk past that lawn there was no dog poop on their lawn
01:52:01 ◼ ► like I think maybe it's a different neighborhood than I live in but I think everyone around
01:52:05 ◼ ► here is pretty good about picking up her dog poop people should pick up the dog for sure
01:52:19 ◼ ► can be a hero god so Marco I have to ask you why why didn't you look at like power over
01:52:26 ◼ ► ethernet powered cameras because I know almost nothing about any of this and I have not started
01:52:31 ◼ ► my you know research or anything but it seemed to me like if I were to do it I would do something
01:52:45 ◼ ► right there with you with home kits here video whatever it's called I think one of those
01:52:49 ◼ ► two options so if you do PoE then it makes a lot of the indoor outdoor in terms of power
01:52:55 ◼ ► anyway go away doesn't it or is that is that not solving the problem I think it's solving
01:52:59 ◼ ► so you'd have PoE Eufy Eufy is such a terrible name it's like someone trying to hold in a
01:53:04 ◼ ► sneeze I mean so if I was doing like a really serious setup for something that had larger
01:53:10 ◼ ► needs or if I was putting a camera somewhere where there was there weren't nearby outlets
01:53:20 ◼ ► you can feed them off of anything and so their needs just aren't that high now as you get
01:53:26 ◼ ► into things like cameras with bright lights in them then you have more serious needs and
01:53:31 ◼ ► that being said usually most of the cameras in this space that are at least the outdoor
01:53:46 ◼ ► need to be recharged some of them have batteries and USB and you can run USB to them if you
01:53:50 ◼ ► want to to you know to have continuous power or not so there's lots of options here and
01:54:00 ◼ ► you don't need HomeKit compatibility because they have tons more models that don't have
01:54:03 ◼ ► HomeKit and because like you know the HomeKit secure video thing it works great again as
01:54:09 ◼ ► I said but there's just so few hardware options to choose from so if you have certain needs
01:54:30 ◼ ► them you know analyze it like CSI like that's one thing but that's not reality for definitely
01:54:36 ◼ ► not for me and theoretically for not for anybody like that's not a kind of thing that I really
01:54:40 ◼ ► need so in this case you know deterring people from stealing our bikes and having fun under
01:54:48 ◼ ► Well then to build on your call for listeners help with regard to Adam and programming if
01:54:53 ◼ ► listeners you have a power over ethernet powered camera that works well with HomeKit and or
01:55:01 ◼ ► Synology Surveillance Station then I would like to hear about it via Twitter please and
01:55:16 ◼ ► It is the same thing though it's kind of the record people doing stuff under your neck.
01:55:26 ◼ ► or four cameras in and in and out of his house and he seems to think it works pretty well
01:55:37 ◼ ► what he's done and how he's done it and so on and so forth but yeah if you have a suggestion
01:55:47 ◼ ► about out than in actually I am more concerned about out than in but if you have a suggestion
01:55:53 ◼ ► Thanks to our sponsors this week Squarespace, Linode, and Fastmail and thanks to our members
01:57:20 ◼ ► This is with regard to Connected episode 358, which I think it was a couple weeks ago at this point.
01:57:29 ◼ ► And this was, I think it was Mike and Steven, I think Federico was out that week if I recall correctly.
01:57:45 ◼ ► And for forever and a day, I have been of the opinion that the docks should be on the left hand side of the screen.
01:57:54 ◼ ► I am, and this is where everyone is going to get very angry at me, I do like magnification.
01:58:07 ◼ ► Now I am not really looking to turn this into a Roast My Dock like reprise, if you will.
01:58:21 ◼ ► Doing it on the left is ridiculous because we live in a country where the predominant language is left to right.
01:58:36 ◼ ► That is why the cursor starts in the upper left hand corner of the Mac screen when you boot.
01:58:55 ◼ ► But if I do it on the side because I have a small laptop screen, I do it on the right side.
01:59:11 ◼ ► I am a side dock, which is for the same reason that almost everyone, except apparently you and Jon,
01:59:18 ◼ ► but almost everybody would choose the side because we usually have much more width in our screens these days than height.
01:59:26 ◼ ► And I am glad you brought that up because that is exactly how I landed on a side dock myself.
01:59:36 ◼ ► What am I doing having this dock taking up all of this precious vertical real estate when every Mac I own is a wide screen?
01:59:48 ◼ ► So everyone, yes, the screens are wider than they are tall unless you have an XDR and rotate it, which is a possibility.
02:00:00 ◼ ► Because being able to make a window an extra inch tall might have less value to you than having an extra inch of width in which to arrange more windows.
02:00:11 ◼ ► So maybe you could have three nicely sized windows, but oh, the dock is overlapping one of them, so I have to make one window narrower than I wanted.
02:00:18 ◼ ► Whereas, if you have to cut an inch off the bottom, it is probably not that big a deal because in general width is more important than height when reading stuff.
02:00:25 ◼ ► Because you want a reasonable size width to contain the content, but of course you are always going to scroll, especially if they are web browser windows or text editor windows.
02:00:34 ◼ ► So I am not saying this is wrong, like, you know, again, there is more horizontal space and you can divide it up how you want.
02:00:40 ◼ ► But I would introduce the thought technology that it could be in your situation, depending on how you do window management, that horizontal space is more valuable to you even though there is more of it around than vertical space.
02:00:52 ◼ ► I understand what you are saying. I cannot say I agree with you. And I have reached the same conclusion as Marco.
02:00:59 ◼ ► Well, it is funny you bring that up. Because it occurred to me, well, I am not doing the always visible dock anymore.
02:01:06 ◼ ► And I have not for, I do not even know how long. I do not recall when I made the switch from always visible to auto hide, but it was many, many, many years ago.
02:01:16 ◼ ► Using the default animation delay with auto hide, I find that a little bit, I feel like I am waiting around.
02:01:22 ◼ ► And people do not know that you can do that. You can make the animation delay basically zero.
02:01:26 ◼ ► So as soon as your cursor hits the edge, the dock just appears fully formed in its position.
02:01:31 ◼ ► And I feel like auto hide in general, if you do that, the edge is so much less important because the dock is not getting in the way of any of your windows because it is not visible all the time.
02:01:38 ◼ ► And that is exactly it. It occurred to me, well, wait a second. Since I am auto hiding anyway, it does not matter what side of the screen I am on.
02:01:46 ◼ ► I can put it wherever I want because it is not taking up real estate always, always, always, always.
02:01:51 ◼ ► And so for the last couple of weeks now, I have been trying bottom dock and my probably decade, maybe less than that, but many years of muscle memory is I am still reaching for the left hand side of the screen.
02:02:00 ◼ ► As my like default idle gesture. But I think I kind of like having bottom dock again, especially since for better or worse, I often have many different applications running and my dock is often relatively large.
02:02:12 ◼ ► So I wanted to encourage those of you who maybe had very strong feelings about side dock when you were not auto hiding.
02:02:24 ◼ ► And one advantage to what you just said is like now you can, you know, you have more room for your dock. You can also make your dock bigger.
02:02:30 ◼ ► Like I like looking at nice icons. I mean, granted, we are not in a good age of Mac icons right now because the current predominant style is pretty boring.
02:02:37 ◼ ► But, you know, I still use custom icons for the things or whatever. It is nice to see pretty icons for your apps.
02:02:44 ◼ ► And if you are auto hiding, like why not have big, meaty click targets when they come up, right?
02:02:49 ◼ ► Make them really big. They will shrink if there is not enough room, right? But you have got all that room down there.
02:02:53 ◼ ► And for magnification, I have not tested this in recent years, but magnification as originally implemented does not actually make the click targets any bigger.
02:03:02 ◼ ► So if you want to make the click targets bigger, you kind of have to actually just make the dock bigger.
02:03:07 ◼ ► But again, if you are auto hiding, no big deal. So I would say try that. Try giving yourself a little bit bigger dock than you expect.
02:03:18 ◼ ► Because I get where you like the magnification. It feels like it is bigger and the one you are going to click on is more prominent and you can kind of make sure you are on the one that you wanted.
02:03:25 ◼ ► But if you just made all the icons as big as your current magnification size, try that for a little bit.
02:03:30 ◼ ► Hmm, I take your point. Anyway, I just thought it was a fun observation because I was very, very devout in my side dock only.
02:03:37 ◼ ► You would be a monster to use the bottom dock until I had that epiphany/apostrophe that I could put it on the bottom with auto hide and everyone is still happy.
02:03:55 ◼ ► I am so used to having the list of running applications and the little vertical, running application icons and the vertical list in the upper right corner of my screen.
02:04:05 ◼ ► And my cursor just goes up there. So I have Switch Glass, my silly little thing that basically has the little icons for all my running apps in the upper right.
02:04:13 ◼ ► And then I also have the dock which also features all my running apps plus a bunch of folders plus the trash can.
02:04:23 ◼ ► But I do because a bunch of the stuff that the dock does can't be done with public APIs anywhere else and no one is willing to maintain, including me, to maintain an application that somehow hacks into the private APIs to get the notification badges and the menus and the notification bounces and all the other things that only the dock can do.
02:04:42 ◼ ► So I am kind of stuck with it. But hey, that's another reason I have this giant screen.