ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► I've lost my play/pause shortcut on my keyboard.

00:00:04 ◼   ► Like it just doesn't work anymore,

00:00:05 ◼   ► and I haven't debugged Waa yet,

00:00:06 ◼   ► and wow is that disruptive.

00:00:09 ◼   ► - Reboot.

00:00:10 ◼   ► - No, I did, I tried rebooting.

00:00:11 ◼   ► - Oh no.

00:00:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've had some weird issues,

00:00:13 ◼   ► like sometimes my keyboard will stop being recognized

00:00:15 ◼   ► until I unplug and replug the USB receiver.

00:00:17 ◼   ► So yeah, it's a whole thing.

00:00:21 ◼   ► What's also very strange,

00:00:22 ◼   ► I'm gonna have even more pre-show unplanned follow-up.

00:00:27 ◼   ► So this is my two week anniversary plus one day

00:00:30 ◼   ► of being fully vaccinated,

00:00:31 ◼   ► so that means now I'm like fully, fully vaccinated.

00:00:34 ◼   ► - Hooray.

00:00:34 ◼   ► - And my town has also lifted the outdoor mask requirement

00:00:39 ◼   ► as most places have now.

00:00:41 ◼   ► So I have been walking around without a mask outside,

00:00:45 ◼   ► and it's still kind of,

00:00:47 ◼   ► like the first time I did it it felt very much like this,

00:00:49 ◼   ► but it still kind of feels like I'm walking around naked.

00:00:53 ◼   ► Like it feels like, oh this is,

00:00:55 ◼   ► like I'm feeling air on a part of my skin

00:00:57 ◼   ► that I shouldn't be feeling air on.

00:00:59 ◼   ► Like I feel, it still feels like I have like forgotten

00:01:02 ◼   ► to put pants on or something.

00:01:03 ◼   ► It's a very strange feeling.

00:01:04 ◼   ► Have you guys gotten that?

00:01:06 ◼   ► - Yes-ish.

00:01:09 ◼   ► I don't, I didn't go that many places in the past.

00:01:14 ◼   ► - Don't you have a dog?

00:01:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, but around the neighborhood I never wore a mask

00:01:18 ◼   ► 'cause our streets are very, very wide,

00:01:20 ◼   ► and I would just walk to the other side of the street.

00:01:22 ◼   ► - Oh, okay.

00:01:22 ◼   ► - It's probably, I'm sure hearing this

00:01:26 ◼   ► it sounds very selfish and very red hatty,

00:01:29 ◼   ► but truly our streets are like,

00:01:32 ◼   ► the streets in our neighborhood are like easily 30 feet,

00:01:34 ◼   ► which is what, 10 meters, 30 feet wide,

00:01:36 ◼   ► and it was not dangerous or disrespectful at all

00:01:40 ◼   ► to just move to the other side of the road

00:01:41 ◼   ► if somebody's coming, and that's what everyone does,

00:01:44 ◼   ► and that's fine.

00:01:45 ◼   ► So yeah, I didn't really have much of this,

00:01:48 ◼   ► and I haven't traveled in any meaningful way.

00:01:50 ◼   ► So I definitely did put a mask on outside

00:01:53 ◼   ► when the situation made it appropriate,

00:01:55 ◼   ► when I was close to people,

00:01:56 ◼   ► when I was around people I don't know, et cetera,

00:01:59 ◼   ► but that happened so infrequently

00:02:01 ◼   ► that I never really got to the point that you're at,

00:02:05 ◼   ► but I can't speak for how it was for you, Jon.

00:02:08 ◼   ► - It was similar here.

00:02:09 ◼   ► I was like, I gotta take my dog for the walk,

00:02:11 ◼   ► for a walk in the park.

00:02:12 ◼   ► Like there's literally no other people there,

00:02:13 ◼   ► and I'm just in the woods by myself, right?

00:02:15 ◼   ► So it was easy to just not have a mask on

00:02:17 ◼   ► 'cause you literally don't see another human,

00:02:18 ◼   ► and I'm outdoors, right?

00:02:20 ◼   ► I think it'll feel weird the first time I do it

00:02:22 ◼   ► like in a place with other people,

00:02:24 ◼   ► but that doesn't happen yet, so I don't know.

00:02:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:02:28 ◼   ► But you are fully vaccinated, to quote Gruber,

00:02:31 ◼   ► I am fully vaccinated.

00:02:32 ◼   ► Jon, remind me, where are you in the process here?

00:02:36 ◼   ► - Next week's show I'll be fully all set.

00:02:39 ◼   ► - So you've already had your second shot?

00:02:41 ◼   ► - Yep, and this is the one week after my second shot,

00:02:44 ◼   ► and next week's show will be two weeks after.

00:02:46 ◼   ► - That's right, that's right.

00:02:47 ◼   ► I forgot that you and I did it on Wednesdays

00:02:48 ◼   ► 'cause we're amateurs.

00:02:50 ◼   ► And then how was your day after second shot?

00:02:53 ◼   ► Was it bad or not too bad?

00:02:55 ◼   ► - It was all right.

00:02:55 ◼   ► I mean, I felt cruddy, you know,

00:02:57 ◼   ► had a headache, had muscle aches in my neck,

00:03:00 ◼   ► and just generally felt like that whole run over

00:03:03 ◼   ► by a truck feeling, which doesn't really make any sense

00:03:05 ◼   ► 'cause none of us know what it feels like,

00:03:06 ◼   ► or most of us don't know what it'd feel like

00:03:07 ◼   ► to be run over by a truck,

00:03:08 ◼   ► but you just feel like your whole body just,

00:03:09 ◼   ► it's more like being even squished by a giant or something.

00:03:12 ◼   ► Like you're just like, ugh.

00:03:14 ◼   ► I felt like that for basically the whole day,

00:03:16 ◼   ► and then the next day it was fine.

00:03:18 ◼   ► - All right, so what I'm hearing is after next week's show,

00:03:23 ◼   ► then the three of us can all meet up somewhere

00:03:25 ◼   ► and hug it out.

00:03:26 ◼   ► It'll be okay then.

00:03:27 ◼   ► - In theory.

00:03:28 ◼   ► - You still have to make Jon travel.

00:03:29 ◼   ► That's the hardest part.

00:03:30 ◼   ► - Well, I can't travel now.

00:03:32 ◼   ► I can't even travel 'cause apparently everyone in Richmond

00:03:34 ◼   ► has bought all the gas in Richmond.

00:03:36 ◼   ► - Oh, there's a gas shortage?

00:03:37 ◼   ► I wouldn't have known.

00:03:38 ◼   ► - Oh, you are such a--

00:03:39 ◼   ► - I haven't been keeping track of this story,

00:03:41 ◼   ► but like, what does it say?

00:03:43 ◼   ► I saw, it's one of those stories that I see

00:03:46 ◼   ► by its third degree effects on Twitter,

00:03:48 ◼   ► but I don't actually know why everyone

00:03:50 ◼   ► is all super nervous about gas.

00:03:52 ◼   ► Is there an actual reason or is it just random?

00:03:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, you honestly don't know about this?

00:03:55 ◼   ► That's fascinating.

00:03:56 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, I know people want gas

00:03:58 ◼   ► and they're hoarding it, but I don't know why.

00:04:00 ◼   ► - So I haven't dug into this too much,

00:04:02 ◼   ► and as always, I might get the details slightly wrong,

00:04:04 ◼   ► but the general gist as chief summarizer in chief

00:04:06 ◼   ► is that there is a pipeline that runs from Texas

00:04:09 ◼   ► to the Northeast, I think, if not all the way to Maine,

00:04:13 ◼   ► but it runs somewhere up to your guys' neck of the woods,

00:04:16 ◼   ► and it got hacked and ransomed and it got shut down,

00:04:21 ◼   ► and this is the pipeline that apparently provides,

00:04:27 ◼   ► I would assume, crude, but maybe it's refined gasoline,

00:04:31 ◼   ► I'm not sure, but provides it for most of the East Coast,

00:04:34 ◼   ► particularly the Southeast, and so gas stations

00:04:38 ◼   ► on Tuesday, I think it was, started to run out of gas

00:04:42 ◼   ► because I guess they get daily shipments or whatever,

00:04:44 ◼   ► and they started to run out of gas,

00:04:46 ◼   ► and so when I went, I met up with a friend of mine

00:04:49 ◼   ► to have an outdoor lunch, we're both fully vaccinated,

00:04:52 ◼   ► and I met up with him, and on the way there,

00:04:55 ◼   ► I passed one of our local big box stores,

00:04:59 ◼   ► and there was a line for the gas station

00:05:03 ◼   ► all the way to the street,

00:05:05 ◼   ► and this is one of those situations

00:05:06 ◼   ► where it's not unusual for there to be a line,

00:05:08 ◼   ► but to go all the way to the street, that's very unusual,

00:05:11 ◼   ► and so yeah, apparently there are gas stations in my area

00:05:14 ◼   ► that have straight up run out of gas,

00:05:16 ◼   ► there's price gouging because capitalism.

00:05:19 ◼   ► I filled up by pure circumstance on Monday,

00:05:22 ◼   ► and Aaron filled up, I think, over the weekend,

00:05:23 ◼   ► and we typically only fuel once a month as it is,

00:05:27 ◼   ► so I'm not particularly nervous,

00:05:29 ◼   ► especially since I think I saw,

00:05:30 ◼   ► as we record on Wednesday night,

00:05:32 ◼   ► that the pipeline has just reopened,

00:05:34 ◼   ► but nevertheless, there is a big scare,

00:05:37 ◼   ► and there's pictures and videos of people

00:05:41 ◼   ► putting gasoline into garbage bags,

00:05:44 ◼   ► and that's not a joke. - Oh God,

00:05:45 ◼   ► please don't do that for long.

00:05:47 ◼   ► - Now, from what I understand,

00:05:48 ◼   ► some of these are recycled from years ago,

00:05:50 ◼   ► like they're memes that went around,

00:05:51 ◼   ► and somebody would recycle and say,

00:05:52 ◼   ► "Oh, look what these idiots are doing,"

00:05:53 ◼   ► but supposedly some of them are really honestly true,

00:05:56 ◼   ► so yeah, it's been a little bit of a mess,

00:05:58 ◼   ► again, thankfully, because we never drive anywhere,

00:06:02 ◼   ► never really go anywhere,

00:06:03 ◼   ► it hasn't been an issue for the List family,

00:06:05 ◼   ► but if it were to persist for another two to three weeks,

00:06:07 ◼   ► then certainly it would be a bit of a problem,

00:06:10 ◼   ► so if you want me to come to you

00:06:13 ◼   ► any time in the next week or two,

00:06:14 ◼   ► I'm going to maybe have to wait on that.

00:06:18 ◼   ► - If you had a Tesla, you could just come here for free

00:06:20 ◼   ► when the Supercharger network.

00:06:22 ◼   ► - The chat room says that the pipeline

00:06:23 ◼   ► is back up and running,

00:06:24 ◼   ► and I can't, for, I don't know for how long,

00:06:27 ◼   ► but for most of the pandemic,

00:06:29 ◼   ► I haven't even been filling my gas tank up,

00:06:31 ◼   ► I think we talked about this before,

00:06:32 ◼   ► 'cause I was afraid of the idea of like,

00:06:34 ◼   ► letting the gas get old in the car,

00:06:36 ◼   ► 'cause I use my car so little,

00:06:38 ◼   ► that if I filled up my tank,

00:06:39 ◼   ► I was like, I'm afraid it'll be eight months

00:06:41 ◼   ► before I empty it,

00:06:42 ◼   ► and it's not good to have the gas sitting there

00:06:44 ◼   ► for a long time,

00:06:45 ◼   ► so I've only ever been filling my tank to half,

00:06:48 ◼   ► and even then, even then I'm like,

00:06:50 ◼   ► how many months has it been?

00:06:51 ◼   ► I just, I never go anywhere,

00:06:52 ◼   ► 'cause like, what, you know, we have two cars,

00:06:54 ◼   ► and my car is always at the front of the driveway,

00:06:56 ◼   ► and I just never drive it anywhere,

00:06:57 ◼   ► I mean, that's changed with the kids going back to school,

00:06:59 ◼   ► and I'm driving them back and forth there,

00:07:00 ◼   ► but school is like 10 minutes away,

00:07:03 ◼   ► so I can't even remember the last time

00:07:04 ◼   ► I filled up my gas tank.

00:07:05 ◼   ► I am back to doing full tanks,

00:07:07 ◼   ► but I think I did my last full tank fill up like,

00:07:10 ◼   ► maybe a month ago,

00:07:12 ◼   ► and a half ago, so I'm not worried.

00:07:14 ◼   ► - But speaking of spending the money on fire,

00:07:17 ◼   ► if you wanted to set a little bit of your money on fire,

00:07:20 ◼   ► and you didn't wanna get gouged

00:07:21 ◼   ► with ridiculous gas prices,

00:07:22 ◼   ► let me tell you about ATP shirts,

00:07:24 ◼   ► because the ATP store's closing soon.

00:07:27 ◼   ► As we record, it is Wednesday night on Friday night,

00:07:30 ◼   ► just two days from now,

00:07:31 ◼   ► probably the day you're listening to this,

00:07:34 ◼   ► in all likelihood, the store will be closed.

00:07:38 ◼   ► I tell this story every time.

00:07:39 ◼   ► I know you're all frustrated with it.

00:07:41 ◼   ► Imagine me, who has to live it.

00:07:43 ◼   ► Every, every sale, somebody tweets,

00:07:46 ◼   ► non-ironically, saying, "Oh no, oh no, oh no,

00:07:49 ◼   ► "did I miss it, did I miss it?"

00:07:50 ◼   ► And typically, this is but hours after the store is closed.

00:07:54 ◼   ► Yes, you did miss it,

00:07:55 ◼   ► because you didn't listen to your friend Casey,

00:07:57 ◼   ► and your friend Casey is telling you,

00:07:58 ◼   ► "Pull the car over," if you drive anywhere,

00:08:01 ◼   ► "maybe pull over to the side of the road if you're walking,

00:08:03 ◼   ► "go to ATP.fm/store."

00:08:05 ◼   ► You can get our sweet, sweet M1 shirt,

00:08:09 ◼   ► which, speaking of lighting money on fire,

00:08:10 ◼   ► is not particularly cheap, and I'm sorry for that.

00:08:12 ◼   ► You can get the M1 shirt,

00:08:13 ◼   ► which has the beautiful six colors M1 logo on the front,

00:08:16 ◼   ► and the M1 kind of cutaway on the back.

00:08:19 ◼   ► You can get a monochrome version of that as well,

00:08:21 ◼   ► in multiple different fabric colors.

00:08:22 ◼   ► You can get the ATP Performance shirt,

00:08:25 ◼   ► which is, I think the term is moisture wicking,

00:08:27 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:08:28 ◼   ► Basically, it means if you're sweaty,

00:08:29 ◼   ► you can take it off without it sticking to you.

00:08:31 ◼   ► You can get my beloved ATP pint glass,

00:08:34 ◼   ► which I'm super excited to get in hand,

00:08:36 ◼   ► and of course, we have our logo shirt.

00:08:37 ◼   ► Now, some of you have heard our plea on the last episode,

00:08:42 ◼   ► that, oh, the enamel pin is going to be sold out soon.

00:08:45 ◼   ► Guys, guess what happened?

00:08:47 ◼   ► It sold out.

00:08:48 ◼   ► Guess what I heard?

00:08:49 ◼   ► Oh, did I miss the pins?

00:08:51 ◼   ► Oh, I missed the pins, didn't I?

00:08:53 ◼   ► You missed the pins.

00:08:54 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:08:55 ◼   ► This is how it works, kids.

00:08:56 ◼   ► This is how it works.

00:08:57 ◼   ► - You only had two years and seven months to buy those pins,

00:08:59 ◼   ► and you just missed it by a day.

00:09:00 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:09:01 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:09:02 ◼   ► So yeah, so if you look at my mentions,

00:09:04 ◼   ► shortly after the store closes,

00:09:06 ◼   ► you will see all the people competing to be first,

00:09:08 ◼   ► to say, oh, did the store close?

00:09:10 ◼   ► And that's fine, whatever.

00:09:12 ◼   ► If it makes you laugh, go for it.

00:09:13 ◼   ► But you'll also see a bunch of people saying,

00:09:15 ◼   ► oh no, did the store close?

00:09:16 ◼   ► Yes, the store closed, because you didn't listen to me.

00:09:19 ◼   ► ATP.fm/store.

00:09:20 ◼   ► Now remember, if you're not already a member,

00:09:23 ◼   ► please, ATP.fm/join.

00:09:26 ◼   ► Join, do it for a year, do it for a month.

00:09:28 ◼   ► It's okay, whatever you want.

00:09:30 ◼   ► Go use the discount code for 15% off

00:09:33 ◼   ► your ATP merchandise at Cotton Bureau,

00:09:36 ◼   ► and then you can just cancel if you want to.

00:09:38 ◼   ► But you don't have to do that.

00:09:39 ◼   ► You can just continue to enjoy the bootleg

00:09:41 ◼   ► and all the sweet, sweet perks that membership gives you,

00:09:44 ◼   ► like the bootleg and an ad-free feed, if you so desire.

00:09:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's more stuff. (laughing)

00:09:49 ◼   ► - So anyways, ATP.fm/store.

00:09:53 ◼   ► The time is now.

00:09:55 ◼   ► - And if you've already made a purchase from the store,

00:09:58 ◼   ► we thank you, and now I would like to tell everybody,

00:10:00 ◼   ► this is the time when you forget to cancel your membership.

00:10:04 ◼   ► I told you in the last show,

00:10:05 ◼   ► as we make it really easy to cancel,

00:10:06 ◼   ► you can get the discount and you can just cancel,

00:10:07 ◼   ► it's really easy, new instruction.

00:10:09 ◼   ► Now everybody, don't cancel, just keep it.

00:10:12 ◼   ► Just keep it going, just keep the ball rolling.

00:10:15 ◼   ► Start, get used to the show with no ads in it, it's awesome.

00:10:17 ◼   ► Listen to the bootleg every once in a while, it's fun.

00:10:20 ◼   ► Now is the time to not cancel.

00:10:21 ◼   ► You can if you want to, we make it super easy, but don't.

00:10:24 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:26 ◼   ► - Well done, Sean.

00:10:27 ◼   ► - Oh, some real-time follow-up for the chat room.

00:10:29 ◼   ► For people who don't know,

00:10:29 ◼   ► thinking I'm making a joke about gas getting old,

00:10:31 ◼   ► this is what happens if you don't read enough books

00:10:33 ◼   ► about the end of the world.

00:10:34 ◼   ► If you read any post-apocalyptic books,

00:10:36 ◼   ► inevitably someone does something, a little bit of research,

00:10:38 ◼   ► and like, you know, three years into the post-apocalyptic

00:10:41 ◼   ► world where the zombies have taken over,

00:10:43 ◼   ► the gas doesn't stay good forever.

00:10:45 ◼   ► It loses its combustibility, it oxidizes,

00:10:47 ◼   ► like gasoline sitting in a gas tank of a car

00:10:50 ◼   ► eventually becomes no good for making the car go

00:10:53 ◼   ► after a certain amount of time.

00:10:55 ◼   ► Which I just did a quick Google for it,

00:10:56 ◼   ► and some people are saying, ExxonMobil's saying like,

00:10:58 ◼   ► six months or whatever, but certainly five years

00:11:01 ◼   ► into the zombie apocalypse, you find a car on the side

00:11:03 ◼   ► of the road with a tank full of gas,

00:11:04 ◼   ► you're not going anywhere.

00:11:05 ◼   ► So yes, gas does go bad, sorry.

00:11:07 ◼   ► - Speaking of more ways to set money on fire,

00:11:11 ◼   ► I have some AirTag attachment follow-up.

00:11:14 ◼   ► - Oh, I actually just got my AirTag,

00:11:16 ◼   ► my one and only AirTag, and I like it.

00:11:18 ◼   ► And it's actually really fun for Declan to play

00:11:21 ◼   ► hide and go seek where I hide the AirTag

00:11:23 ◼   ► and he goes and finds it, but nevertheless.

00:11:25 ◼   ► I haven't put it in any sort of mount.

00:11:27 ◼   ► So Marco, tell me, how did you set your money aflame

00:11:30 ◼   ► to get overpriced AirTag mounts?

00:11:33 ◼   ► - So, for science, I bought two AirTag

00:11:38 ◼   ► mounting options from Apple.

00:11:40 ◼   ► - You were supposed to get the balloons for science,

00:11:42 ◼   ► not the-- - Oh.

00:11:44 ◼   ► - I did not get the balloons, I also did not get

00:11:47 ◼   ► the like $350 Hermes one.

00:11:50 ◼   ► I got an AirTag leather key ring in product red,

00:11:55 ◼   ► which is $35, and I have here the AirTag loop in white,

00:12:00 ◼   ► which is $29.

00:12:03 ◼   ► This is probably the worst way I've ever spent $64

00:12:06 ◼   ► or whatever it is, like I, these things are such

00:12:09 ◼   ► pieces of crap for how much they cost.

00:12:12 ◼   ► First of all, they're both massive.

00:12:15 ◼   ► When you compare them to the size of the AirTag,

00:12:19 ◼   ► they're ridiculously large, and I would have loved instead,

00:12:24 ◼   ► if you're going with the Apple store-provided options,

00:12:27 ◼   ► the Belkin Secure Holder with Key Ring for AirTag,

00:12:32 ◼   ► that would be a much better product, and that's only $13,

00:12:34 ◼   ► but that's back-ordered until mid-June.

00:12:36 ◼   ► - Oh my. - So I couldn't get those.

00:12:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:12:39 ◼   ► So I have this like plastic kind of like, you know,

00:12:41 ◼   ► rubbery loop thing that like loops into itself

00:12:45 ◼   ► and tucks into itself, and by the way,

00:12:47 ◼   ► the location in which the, what is it called?

00:12:50 ◼   ► The AirTag loop, the location where it folds over

00:12:54 ◼   ► onto itself, like there's a very thin part of material

00:12:57 ◼   ► there that will bear the entire weight of it

00:13:00 ◼   ► when it, if it gets tugged or pulled in just the wrong way,

00:13:03 ◼   ► and I don't trust that material thickness for a second.

00:13:05 ◼   ► I think this thing is gonna break with any kind of,

00:13:07 ◼   ► you know, stress on it.

00:13:08 ◼   ► It doesn't-- - Oh, it needs.

00:13:09 ◼   ► - And these things don't feel good.

00:13:11 ◼   ► Like, the AirTag loop feels like a silicone wrapped sheet

00:13:17 ◼   ► of cardboard, and the leather key ring feels okay,

00:13:22 ◼   ► but it's not like soft or supple in any way

00:13:27 ◼   ► like the way nice leather is, 'cause there's just not enough

00:13:30 ◼   ► like flexibility or room for the material.

00:13:33 ◼   ► And the main thing with both of these things is that,

00:13:35 ◼   ► again, they just make, I mean, not only does this double

00:13:37 ◼   ► the cost of your AirTag, and frankly,

00:13:40 ◼   ► I don't know why Apple's charging as much as they are

00:13:42 ◼   ► for these things, well, I know why, but it doesn't seem

00:13:45 ◼   ► like it's worth what they're charging for it.

00:13:47 ◼   ► But also, like, the resulting, you know, combined

00:13:51 ◼   ► sum product of these things is so ridiculously large

00:13:54 ◼   ► and bulky, and they're both designed to show off the AirTag,

00:13:58 ◼   ► which I guess makes sense if you're Apple's

00:14:00 ◼   ► industrial designers, but I think in most cases

00:14:03 ◼   ► you wouldn't wanna show off your AirTag.

00:14:04 ◼   ► Like, I don't know, but anyway, so I, these things

00:14:07 ◼   ► got a big thumbs down for me, and I hope that

00:14:10 ◼   ► in the near future all of these, like, inexpensive

00:14:12 ◼   ► key ring mounts, like the Belkin one,

00:14:14 ◼   ► become more widely available, or at least, you know,

00:14:17 ◼   ► knockoffs from Amazon should be available pretty soon.

00:14:19 ◼   ► Now, I also have some follow up on, I did actually attach

00:14:23 ◼   ► two of these so far to our family bicycles.

00:14:28 ◼   ► And the attachment method I went with

00:14:31 ◼   ► cost significantly less than $29.

00:14:34 ◼   ► I was thinking, like, I need to attach this securely

00:14:37 ◼   ► to the bikes, because what if the attachment method I use,

00:14:42 ◼   ► like, breaks and the AirTag falls off?

00:14:44 ◼   ► I quickly realized, like, if my AirTag falls off,

00:14:49 ◼   ► that's not that bad, because I can just find it.

00:14:53 ◼   ► So, I realized I don't need anything fancy,

00:14:57 ◼   ► and I wanted something small, and discreet,

00:15:02 ◼   ► and weatherproof, so I just used electrical tape.

00:15:06 ◼   ► I used vinyl, 3M electrical tape.

00:15:09 ◼   ► - Duct tape is a little bit better for moisture,

00:15:12 ◼   ► just FYI, but it'll be fine.

00:15:14 ◼   ► - I just wrapped them in electrical tape

00:15:16 ◼   ► so you can't see them, and it's fairly weatherproof,

00:15:20 ◼   ► and it's fairly salt and weatherproof,

00:15:23 ◼   ► or salt and waterproof mostly, like, salt and, you know,

00:15:26 ◼   ► sand and everything, all the conditions it'll encounter.

00:15:28 ◼   ► It's fairly resilient to those things.

00:15:31 ◼   ► And when the battery dies in a year,

00:15:32 ◼   ► I'll have to cut the electrical tape off,

00:15:35 ◼   ► and pull it out, and put a CR2032 back in there,

00:15:38 ◼   ► and use about a dollar more of electrical tape to attach it.

00:15:41 ◼   ► And the electrical tape is a far better attachment option

00:15:45 ◼   ► than any of these weird $30 pieces of material from Apple.

00:15:50 ◼   ► So, overall, I can recommend electrical tape

00:15:53 ◼   ► as your AirTag mounting option.

00:15:56 ◼   ► Way, way more than any of the official accessories

00:15:59 ◼   ► that I've seen so far.

00:16:00 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by Mack Weldon,

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00:18:02 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:18:05 ◼   ► All right, we have some other feedback

00:18:07 ◼   ► that involves spending less money.

00:18:09 ◼   ► We were talking about, I think it was NASK ATP,

00:18:11 ◼   ► is that right?

00:18:12 ◼   ► About unintended restart when you have FileVault enabled.

00:18:16 ◼   ► And several people wrote in to give a couple

00:18:18 ◼   ► of command line commands you can try.

00:18:19 ◼   ► You can do using sudo fde setup space auth restart.

00:18:24 ◼   ► We'll put this in the show notes.

00:18:27 ◼   ► And on supported hardware,

00:18:28 ◼   ► this allows a restart of a FileVault enabled system

00:18:31 ◼   ► without requiring unlock during the subsequent boot.

00:18:33 ◼   ► And that's by using this auth restart thing.

00:18:36 ◼   ► Be careful though, because FileVault protections

00:18:38 ◼   ► are reduced during authenticated restarts.

00:18:40 ◼   ► In particular, fde setup deliberately stores

00:18:43 ◼   ► at least one additional copy of a permanent fde

00:18:45 ◼   ► or full disk encryption unlock key,

00:18:47 ◼   ► and both the system memory and unsupported systems

00:18:49 ◼   ► in the system management controller.

00:18:51 ◼   ► And you have to run it as root,

00:18:52 ◼   ► and it will ask you to unlock your,

00:18:54 ◼   ► the FileVault password and so on.

00:18:57 ◼   ► Additionally, Paul Galal writes,

00:18:59 ◼   ► "I regularly use this method to remotely update

00:19:01 ◼   ► max via SSH or Apple remote desktop.

00:19:04 ◼   ► Running software update space hyphen IA."

00:19:07 ◼   ► Again, it'll be in the show notes.

00:19:08 ◼   ► "We'll install all available software updates,

00:19:10 ◼   ► then follow this up with the fde setup auth restart

00:19:13 ◼   ► to reboot your Mac."

00:19:14 ◼   ► Or you can also optionally do fde setup auth restart,

00:19:17 ◼   ► and then hyphen delay minutes, and then a numeral.

00:19:20 ◼   ► So like hyphen delay minutes space five

00:19:23 ◼   ► to delay at five minutes.

00:19:24 ◼   ► And then Hugo Jobling writes,

00:19:26 ◼   ► "Another interesting quirk about the FileVault login screen

00:19:28 ◼   ► is that many or maybe all Bluetooth devices

00:19:30 ◼   ► will not work here.

00:19:31 ◼   ► For example, neither my keyboard, the Keychron K2 or mouse,

00:19:34 ◼   ► the Microsoft Precision, will work on at this logic screen.

00:19:36 ◼   ► I keep my keyboard connected via USB as a result,

00:19:39 ◼   ► according to Hugo."

00:19:41 ◼   ► So that is something I did not know today I learned.

00:19:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's why I couldn't remember this command

00:19:46 ◼   ► last time, but I was pretty sure there was a way to do it,

00:19:48 ◼   ► and many people wrote in with this command line

00:19:49 ◼   ► way to do it.

00:19:50 ◼   ► So if you feel like you can't enable FileVault

00:19:52 ◼   ► because you won't be able to do unattended restarts,

00:19:55 ◼   ► or you won't be able to do software updates,

00:19:57 ◼   ► that's not true, apparently you can use this method.

00:19:58 ◼   ► And I don't think this is broken with the M1 Macs,

00:20:01 ◼   ► lots of stuff related to booting has either changed

00:20:05 ◼   ► or broken with the M1 Macs and/or Big Sur,

00:20:07 ◼   ► but I'm pretty sure this one still works.

00:20:08 ◼   ► So you have tools available,

00:20:11 ◼   ► no more excuses for not enabling FileVault.

00:20:14 ◼   ► - And then a couple of people wrote in most of,

00:20:17 ◼   ► or perhaps first, Matt Friedman,

00:20:19 ◼   ► with regard to Apple TV and spatial audio,

00:20:21 ◼   ► and Matt writes, "In all of your discussions

00:20:23 ◼   ► of the new Apple TV 4K,

00:20:24 ◼   ► I'm surprised that you've not yet brought up

00:20:26 ◼   ► its most obvious missing feature,

00:20:27 ◼   ► no support for spatial audio."

00:20:29 ◼   ► As Matt recalls, when discussing the AirPods Max,

00:20:31 ◼   ► we had talked about how great spatial audio is,

00:20:34 ◼   ► but the big downside is that you're limited

00:20:35 ◼   ► to the iPhone and the iPad,

00:20:37 ◼   ► and how obviously it is needed on the Apple TV.

00:20:39 ◼   ► I was shocked when the new one came out

00:20:40 ◼   ► and it wasn't included.

00:20:41 ◼   ► I would have been more perturbed about this

00:20:43 ◼   ► had I ever experienced spatial audio,

00:20:45 ◼   ► but I'm still on the second gen AirPods.

00:20:47 ◼   ► I've never had the, what is it, the AirPods Max,

00:20:51 ◼   ► the MaxPods, whatever they're called,

00:20:52 ◼   ► the big headphony things, and I've never had AirPods Pro.

00:20:56 ◼   ► So I've never experienced this,

00:20:57 ◼   ► even though I've heard it's really delightful.

00:20:59 ◼   ► I don't know if you guys have thoughts on that.

00:21:00 ◼   ► - So I have experienced it,

00:21:02 ◼   ► and unless I'm entirely misunderstanding this feature,

00:21:05 ◼   ► and maybe Marco can correct me if I'm getting it wrong,

00:21:08 ◼   ► but when I tried it, and my understanding

00:21:10 ◼   ► of what it's supposed to do is it's like,

00:21:11 ◼   ► so you put them, I tried it with the AirPods Pro

00:21:13 ◼   ► 'cause my wife has them, right?

00:21:15 ◼   ► You put them in, you put them in spatial audio,

00:21:16 ◼   ► and then say you're looking at your iPad, right?

00:21:18 ◼   ► It uses whatever, various sensors and stuff,

00:21:22 ◼   ► to understand where the iPad is in relation to your head

00:21:26 ◼   ► so that it fools you into thinking

00:21:30 ◼   ► that sound is coming out of the iPad.

00:21:32 ◼   ► So if you take the iPad and move it to your left,

00:21:34 ◼   ► all of a sudden the sound is coming

00:21:35 ◼   ► from where you moved the iPad to,

00:21:37 ◼   ► and you take the iPad and move it to your right,

00:21:38 ◼   ► oh, now it's coming from the right,

00:21:39 ◼   ► as opposed to just traditional headphones

00:21:41 ◼   ► where no matter where you move the iPad,

00:21:43 ◼   ► if you have the headphones in your ear,

00:21:45 ◼   ► they sound exactly the same.

00:21:46 ◼   ► You can move the iPad up, down, left, and right.

00:21:48 ◼   ► It doesn't change the sound, right?

00:21:49 ◼   ► Am I getting this right?

00:21:51 ◼   ► This is what spatial audio is supposed to do?

00:21:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, so that's one of the things it does,

00:21:54 ◼   ► but then it also allows it to then act like surround sound.

00:21:57 ◼   ► So not only does it sound like it's coming

00:21:59 ◼   ► directly from the iPad, even when the things

00:22:01 ◼   ► are in your ears and you're moving your head around,

00:22:03 ◼   ► but the idea then is that it can also then position sounds

00:22:06 ◼   ► like around you or behind you like surround sound would.

00:22:09 ◼   ► - Yes, I haven't heard that part of it.

00:22:13 ◼   ► I've heard the panning, you know,

00:22:15 ◼   ► make it sound like the sound

00:22:17 ◼   ► is coming from the TV part of it.

00:22:20 ◼   ► Like I understand where people are saying like,

00:22:22 ◼   ► oh, spatial audio, that should be used

00:22:24 ◼   ► to trick me into thinking I have surround speakers,

00:22:27 ◼   ► but I think the thing that makes it sound like

00:22:30 ◼   ► the audio is coming from wherever you move the iPad

00:22:32 ◼   ► or the iPhone to, I can understand how that would work.

00:22:36 ◼   ► And I have experienced it and yes, it does,

00:22:38 ◼   ► it feels like that.

00:22:39 ◼   ► Like it can trick you into thinking,

00:22:40 ◼   ► oh, the audio must not be, you know when you forget

00:22:42 ◼   ► that like your AirPods don't connect or something

00:22:45 ◼   ► and the audio is coming out of the speakers of your device

00:22:47 ◼   ► but not your headphones?

00:22:48 ◼   ► Very often it feels like that.

00:22:50 ◼   ► You're like, oh, I guess I forgot the audio

00:22:52 ◼   ► is still coming out of the speakers.

00:22:53 ◼   ► I forgot to change it to AirPods, but you didn't.

00:22:55 ◼   ► You did change it to your headphones.

00:22:56 ◼   ► It's just fooling you into thinking

00:22:57 ◼   ► the audio is coming from the iPad or something.

00:23:01 ◼   ► But first on that specific feature,

00:23:04 ◼   ► that's pretty much never what I want

00:23:06 ◼   ► when I'm like watching TV on my iPad or something.

00:23:09 ◼   ► I don't want it to sound like the sound

00:23:11 ◼   ► is coming from the iPad.

00:23:12 ◼   ► I want it to sound like the sound is all around me, right?

00:23:15 ◼   ► I don't, you know, like part of the reason

00:23:17 ◼   ► of putting in headphones is it's a more quote unquote

00:23:19 ◼   ► immersive experience than sound coming out of the iPad

00:23:22 ◼   ► that's sitting on my lap, right?

00:23:24 ◼   ► So that is an anti feature for me.

00:23:27 ◼   ► And same deal when watching television on a big television.

00:23:30 ◼   ► I would, I don't want the sound to sound like it's coming

00:23:33 ◼   ► from, you know, the person's mouth on the screen.

00:23:36 ◼   ► A lot of modern TVs do this

00:23:37 ◼   ► with their built-in speakers now.

00:23:38 ◼   ► They take pride in the fact that they do,

00:23:40 ◼   ► I'm assuming they do facial recognition or whatever

00:23:42 ◼   ► and figure out where the speaker is.

00:23:43 ◼   ► Like the person who is talking, not the audio speaker,

00:23:46 ◼   ► but they figure out where the person who is talking

00:23:48 ◼   ► is on the screen and they try to make the sound

00:23:50 ◼   ► with the built-in speakers come from that location

00:23:52 ◼   ► because the speakers essentially shake the screen.

00:23:55 ◼   ► Like the giant, the screen is like one big,

00:23:57 ◼   ► like, you know, speaker diaphragm.

00:23:59 ◼   ► But that's not what I want.

00:24:00 ◼   ► That's not how I want audio to work.

00:24:02 ◼   ► In general, for things like movies with surround sound,

00:24:04 ◼   ► I want it to sound like you're in a movie theater

00:24:06 ◼   ► where yes, I want all the sound to be even coming at me,

00:24:10 ◼   ► but I don't want to think the sound is coming

00:24:13 ◼   ► from a particular speaker.

00:24:15 ◼   ► I want to feel like I'm completely immersed in it, right?

00:24:17 ◼   ► So if people want spatial audio because they want the audio

00:24:21 ◼   ► to sound like it's coming from their screen

00:24:22 ◼   ► or really coming from their headphones,

00:24:25 ◼   ► you know, more power to them,

00:24:26 ◼   ► but that is absolutely not what I want.

00:24:28 ◼   ► If people that think that the sound,

00:24:30 ◼   ► that it is able to simulate surround sound

00:24:32 ◼   ► convincingly from headphones, I haven't experienced that

00:24:35 ◼   ► and I am very doubtful that it's going to,

00:24:37 ◼   ► like kind of like soundbars.

00:24:38 ◼   ► Like, yeah, you can do tricks, you can do bouncing audio

00:24:40 ◼   ► and obviously headphones, you could do more tricks,

00:24:42 ◼   ► but they don't have my head-related transfer function.

00:24:45 ◼   ► How good could this possibly be?

00:24:47 ◼   ► You know, what Sony has taught us that just, you know,

00:24:49 ◼   ► they can try their best, but in the end,

00:24:52 ◼   ► actual surround speakers, if you want that,

00:24:54 ◼   ► are the way to go and actual surround speakers

00:24:57 ◼   ► do not try to make it sound like all the sound

00:25:00 ◼   ► is coming from the television screen.

00:25:01 ◼   ► They might make it sound like some sound

00:25:03 ◼   ► is coming from behind you because guess what?

00:25:04 ◼   ► It really is because there's a speaker back there.

00:25:06 ◼   ► So I'm not shocked that it wasn't included

00:25:09 ◼   ► and I'm not sure I would even want it to be included,

00:25:12 ◼   ► but all that said, for the people who do want it

00:25:14 ◼   ► to be included, it does seem kind of silly

00:25:16 ◼   ► that it doesn't support it.

00:25:17 ◼   ► This is a completely Apple ecosystem

00:25:19 ◼   ► and for the most part, an Apple TV doesn't move,

00:25:23 ◼   ► so it's not like they have to do complicated math

00:25:25 ◼   ► and computation to figure out where everybody is.

00:25:27 ◼   ► Like they're probably in front of the TV

00:25:29 ◼   ► and that's where they're gonna stay.

00:25:30 ◼   ► And it seems like all the hardware on the Apple TVs

00:25:34 ◼   ► must be there for this.

00:25:35 ◼   ► I mean, didn't they put like a Thread Radio

00:25:36 ◼   ► on the Apple TV, like they couldn't put in

00:25:38 ◼   ► whatever they needed for U1 or, you know.

00:25:41 ◼   ► - I'm guessing that's the issue right there.

00:25:43 ◼   ► - That they don't have the U1 in there?

00:25:45 ◼   ► - I'm guessing that, so I mean, we know the Apple TV

00:25:47 ◼   ► doesn't have a U1, but I think the bigger problem

00:25:49 ◼   ► is the AirPods don't have a U1.

00:25:50 ◼   ► And I think you can look at the AirTag

00:25:53 ◼   ► as an example of what's like the smallest

00:25:57 ◼   ► you could make something that is, you know,

00:25:59 ◼   ► self-powered that has a U1 and you know,

00:26:02 ◼   ► any kind of basic logic.

00:26:05 ◼   ► And granted, much, I'd say most of the AirTag's volume

00:26:09 ◼   ► is that battery, second to that is probably

00:26:11 ◼   ► the plastic of the case, you know,

00:26:13 ◼   ► but if you look at AirPods and AirPods Pro,

00:26:15 ◼   ► they don't have anywhere near enough space

00:26:17 ◼   ► to add, you know, probably the U1

00:26:20 ◼   ► and the whatever antenna that it uses to transmit stuff.

00:26:22 ◼   ► So, my guess is that the reason why this is not

00:26:26 ◼   ► a feature on Apple TV is because the way it's done

00:26:29 ◼   ► with AirPods Pro and iPads is probably with Bluetooth.

00:26:34 ◼   ► And I'm guessing that at the distance that you would

00:26:36 ◼   ► have an iPad in front of you on a table,

00:26:39 ◼   ► that might be accurate enough, but if it's gonna be like,

00:26:41 ◼   ► you know, 12 feet in front of you, you know,

00:26:44 ◼   ► across the room with an Apple TV,

00:26:46 ◼   ► maybe it can't be precise enough

00:26:49 ◼   ► for the effect to work very well.

00:26:51 ◼   ► - I don't know, Bluetooth range is pretty good.

00:26:53 ◼   ► And you know, and the fact that they can fit the hardware

00:26:55 ◼   ► to make this work inside the AirPods Pro,

00:26:57 ◼   ► the tiny little things that go in your ears,

00:26:58 ◼   ► like there's no excuse for it not to be in the AirPods Max.

00:27:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's true.

00:27:02 ◼   ► - Anyway, maybe they'll get around to it eventually,

00:27:03 ◼   ► but I am curious now hearing that it's supposed to,

00:27:06 ◼   ► there is apparently a mode where it's supposed

00:27:08 ◼   ► to simulate surround, I have not heard that myself.

00:27:11 ◼   ► But if that is any good, I can see why people might want it.

00:27:13 ◼   ► But I've, you know, I've tried stuff like that

00:27:15 ◼   ► on my various gaming consoles with gaming headphones

00:27:18 ◼   ► that supposedly simulate 5.1 and you can watch a movie

00:27:21 ◼   ► on your PlayStation with 5.1 sound

00:27:22 ◼   ► and put on these headphones and it's just,

00:27:24 ◼   ► it has never, it has never sounded any good to me.

00:27:27 ◼   ► So my hopes of this are dim.

00:27:28 ◼   ► - So, so optimistic.

00:27:32 ◼   ► All right, and then Humberto Ira's Pereira writes,

00:27:36 ◼   ► the new Apple TV has Wi-Fi 6,

00:27:38 ◼   ► which might improve connection speed and stability

00:27:40 ◼   ► for some people, especially given how frequently TVs

00:27:42 ◼   ► have terrible connections.

00:27:43 ◼   ► - Just looking for more reasons to be interested in,

00:27:46 ◼   ► what's new about the new Apple TV 4K,

00:27:48 ◼   ► why should they even want it?

00:27:49 ◼   ► Hey, maybe if your current Apple TV's got terrible signal,

00:27:52 ◼   ► maybe Wi-Fi 6 will help.

00:27:54 ◼   ► - All right, let's move right along.

00:27:56 ◼   ► So as we record today on the evening of Wednesday the 12th,

00:28:01 ◼   ► right not too long before we recorded,

00:28:03 ◼   ► there was a whole lot of brouhaha

00:28:06 ◼   ► about a new hire at Apple.

00:28:09 ◼   ► And the three of us haven't really had much time

00:28:11 ◼   ► to read into this, so this is gonna be really quick.

00:28:15 ◼   ► We'll put a link in the show notes to a Verge article

00:28:16 ◼   ► that kind of talks about it.

00:28:17 ◼   ► But apparently Antonio Garcia Martinez

00:28:20 ◼   ► was the author of a book called "Chaos Monkeys."

00:28:23 ◼   ► And I have not read this,

00:28:24 ◼   ► I'm not familiar with this particular gentleman,

00:28:26 ◼   ► but from everything I've heard,

00:28:29 ◼   ► "Chaos Monkeys" is extremely problematic,

00:28:33 ◼   ► like really, really, really problematic.

00:28:38 ◼   ► And for anyone to hire this individual seems unwise,

00:28:43 ◼   ► especially since from everything I've heard

00:28:45 ◼   ► through the grapevine, again,

00:28:46 ◼   ► not having done my proper research,

00:28:47 ◼   ► is that he never really changed his ways.

00:28:50 ◼   ► Like he's been doubly tripling,

00:28:51 ◼   ► quadrupling down ever since.

00:28:53 ◼   ► And so this is a new hire that Apple made

00:28:57 ◼   ► to lead their ad team, I believe,

00:28:59 ◼   ► like their advertising team or something like that,

00:29:01 ◼   ► and he's ex-Facebook, which kind of makes sense.

00:29:05 ◼   ► But yeah, this is from, at a glance at least,

00:29:08 ◼   ► this is super gross and none of the three of us

00:29:10 ◼   ► can endorse or are enthusiastic about it.

00:29:14 ◼   ► And we just wanted to call attention to it real quick.

00:29:16 ◼   ► But again, we haven't really had the time

00:29:18 ◼   ► to properly look into this.

00:29:19 ◼   ► I don't know if you guys have any further thoughts.

00:29:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, when I was trying to compile everything for this,

00:29:23 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, people saying stuff on Twitter,

00:29:26 ◼   ► and then I saw some quotes from his book,

00:29:28 ◼   ► and like these quotes are terrible,

00:29:29 ◼   ► but I'm not sure I have the context.

00:29:30 ◼   ► So I did a Google Book search

00:29:32 ◼   ► to make sure I had the context for this stuff.

00:29:33 ◼   ► And it was just increasingly looking like,

00:29:35 ◼   ► no, this is the story, this guy's terrible, right?

00:29:38 ◼   ► And what I assume would happen is that

00:29:40 ◼   ► if he is this terrible, Apple will eventually

00:29:41 ◼   ► get rid of him.

00:29:42 ◼   ► And just before we started recording,

00:29:45 ◼   ► the Verge article is basically Apple employees

00:29:48 ◼   ► who have been discussing this on Twitter,

00:29:49 ◼   ► and I follow some of them, saying like,

00:29:51 ◼   ► Apple employees saying, we're not taking this lying down.

00:29:54 ◼   ► They are circulating a petition within Apple asking,

00:29:58 ◼   ► essentially demanding Apple to explain

00:30:00 ◼   ► why they hired this person,

00:30:01 ◼   ► how their vetting process could have let this in.

00:30:03 ◼   ► And by the way, if you're wondering,

00:30:04 ◼   ► what did this person do that's so bad or whatever?

00:30:07 ◼   ► He published a book that he wrote himself.

00:30:09 ◼   ► It's not like hearsay or people saying bad things

00:30:12 ◼   ► about this person.

00:30:13 ◼   ► This is his own words.

00:30:14 ◼   ► He is the author of the book.

00:30:15 ◼   ► It is a nonfiction book.

00:30:17 ◼   ► And in it, there are many passages that clearly,

00:30:21 ◼   ► clearly label this guy as just a general sexist jerk,

00:30:26 ◼   ► Silicon Valley jerk, right?

00:30:28 ◼   ► And so, Apple, supposed to be an inclusive organization,

00:30:32 ◼   ► this petition from the Apple employees,

00:30:36 ◼   ► I think was very well written,

00:30:37 ◼   ► because it really highlights like,

00:30:38 ◼   ► why do we care about this?

00:30:39 ◼   ► Like, why do we care if you hire a jerk?

00:30:41 ◼   ► Well, actually, hiring jerks affects all of us.

00:30:43 ◼   ► Like, what if this person who, you know,

00:30:46 ◼   ► like here, I'll just read you one of the quotes,

00:30:47 ◼   ► just to let you know what we're dealing with here.

00:30:48 ◼   ► This is from his book.

00:30:50 ◼   ► Most women in the Bay Area are soft and weak,

00:30:53 ◼   ► causited and naive despite their claims of worldliness,

00:30:56 ◼   ► and generally full of stuff.

00:30:58 ◼   ► I'm not gonna do it so far, but believe me.

00:31:01 ◼   ► They have their self-regarding entitlement feminism

00:31:04 ◼   ► and ceaselessly want their independence.

00:31:05 ◼   ► But the reality is, come the epidemic plague

00:31:07 ◼   ► or foreign invasion,

00:31:09 ◼   ► they'd become precisely the sort of useless baggage

00:31:11 ◼   ► you'd trade for a box of shotgun shells

00:31:12 ◼   ► or a jerrycan of diesel.

00:31:14 ◼   ► - Oh, wow.

00:31:15 ◼   ► - There's so much in this one statement

00:31:17 ◼   ► that lets you know exactly who this guy is,

00:31:19 ◼   ► aside from simply being a virulent misogynist.

00:31:21 ◼   ► And the idea that, you know,

00:31:23 ◼   ► women are useless in the apocalypse and I'm a tough man,

00:31:26 ◼   ► and I would trade these women for shotgun shells,

00:31:28 ◼   ► and it's just, oh my, and just goes on from there, right?

00:31:31 ◼   ► So anyway, why, so Apple hires a jerk.

00:31:33 ◼   ► How does that affect me as an Apple employee?

00:31:35 ◼   ► And this thing spells it out.

00:31:37 ◼   ► How can you put this person in the organization

00:31:41 ◼   ► and ever have them involved in any kind of person's

00:31:44 ◼   ► performance review, right?

00:31:46 ◼   ► You know, would you ever want this person

00:31:48 ◼   ► managing other people or having any say

00:31:51 ◼   ► in who gets promoted?

00:31:52 ◼   ► Never mind just having this person in the organization

00:31:55 ◼   ► with published works expressing their views of this type,

00:31:58 ◼   ► like it's, you know,

00:31:59 ◼   ► it wouldn't really make you feel welcome.

00:32:01 ◼   ► Here's an Apple employee responding to this thing.

00:32:04 ◼   ► Every day I go to work and I know that some people

00:32:06 ◼   ► view me this way, this is a female Apple employee.

00:32:08 ◼   ► I don't know which people, but I've heard stuff like this

00:32:10 ◼   ► enough to know that it's ever-present in our world.

00:32:13 ◼   ► It angers me to see these viewpoints expressed

00:32:15 ◼   ► by someone in a leadership role at my own company.

00:32:17 ◼   ► So Apple employees aren't taking this lying down.

00:32:19 ◼   ► I think this is a sign of a,

00:32:22 ◼   ► a sign of health of an inclusive organization

00:32:25 ◼   ► if the people you already have,

00:32:27 ◼   ► like your existing employees,

00:32:29 ◼   ► see something like this and say,

00:32:31 ◼   ► "This is not how we do things at Apple."

00:32:33 ◼   ► And sort of, you know, from the bottom up rise up and say,

00:32:37 ◼   ► you know, "What's the deal?

00:32:38 ◼   ► "What's going on here?"

00:32:39 ◼   ► Right?

00:32:40 ◼   ► We want an investigation,

00:32:40 ◼   ► we wanna know how someone with these views

00:32:42 ◼   ► got past our screening process.

00:32:44 ◼   ► We wanna, you know, understand how

00:32:46 ◼   ► it's not like these are secret views

00:32:47 ◼   ► that people didn't know about it

00:32:48 ◼   ► and then people who are enemies of this person

00:32:50 ◼   ► starting saying bad things about it behind his back.

00:32:52 ◼   ► This is a book that he published.

00:32:54 ◼   ► It was a New York Times bestseller.

00:32:55 ◼   ► Like it's not obscure, right?

00:32:57 ◼   ► And I'm not saying you have to read everybody's books,

00:32:58 ◼   ► but you should really know who you're hiring.

00:33:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, and honestly, like,

00:33:02 ◼   ► I'm sure Apple has already decided to get rid of him.

00:33:04 ◼   ► They're just looking for a way to do it

00:33:05 ◼   ► without getting sued.

00:33:06 ◼   ► And he, probably by the time that we publish this episode,

00:33:08 ◼   ► I bet he's out.

00:33:09 ◼   ► - I think you're right.

00:33:10 ◼   ► I think you're definitely right.

00:33:12 ◼   ► But, you know, just because we like to,

00:33:15 ◼   ► we wanna make it clear that the three of us,

00:33:17 ◼   ► you know, this is not cool to us

00:33:19 ◼   ► and we don't support this sort of thing

00:33:21 ◼   ► and, you know, we don't necessarily need to get involved

00:33:23 ◼   ► with every Apple hire or anything like that.

00:33:26 ◼   ► But, you know, a lot of people have asked us,

00:33:28 ◼   ► hey, what are your two cents on this?

00:33:29 ◼   ► And our two cents is it's gross and shouldn't have happened.

00:33:31 ◼   ► So hopefully--

00:33:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, and this is what happens when you hire people

00:33:34 ◼   ► who have a high profile.

00:33:36 ◼   ► Like, I mean, obviously, you know, you vet every employee

00:33:38 ◼   ► and you try to hire people who you think

00:33:40 ◼   ► will fit into your organization and will, you know,

00:33:42 ◼   ► like it's the hiring process.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Like we understand it's big, it's complicated or whatever.

00:33:46 ◼   ► But when someone has a New York Times best-selling book,

00:33:49 ◼   ► maybe look at the book.

00:33:50 ◼   ► That's all I'm saying.

00:33:51 ◼   ► Like, it's not, you know, again,

00:33:53 ◼   ► everyone has enemies, everyone has things.

00:33:55 ◼   ► People change too.

00:33:56 ◼   ► Like, you know, that's also a thing.

00:33:57 ◼   ► Like, that's why this thing goes about, you know,

00:33:59 ◼   ► like just don't hold people's past against them forever.

00:34:01 ◼   ► Maybe they've learned it.

00:34:02 ◼   ► We talked about this last show.

00:34:03 ◼   ► Everyone learns and changes and grows, right?

00:34:06 ◼   ► But I feel like that's worth discussing, right?

00:34:08 ◼   ► Like with the employee during the hiring process.

00:34:10 ◼   ► Hey, we looked at your New York Times best-selling book

00:34:12 ◼   ► and here's what you said.

00:34:14 ◼   ► How do you feel about that now?

00:34:15 ◼   ► Like, I feel like it should come up, right?

00:34:17 ◼   ► So as the story unfolds, we'll see.

00:34:19 ◼   ► But I feel like this person's tenure at Apple

00:34:22 ◼   ► may not be particularly long.

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00:36:11 ◼   ► - Moving right along.

00:36:17 ◼   ► Some thoughts on Apple versus Epic.

00:36:19 ◼   ► So I think Jon most especially had a few things

00:36:22 ◼   ► that you wanna talk about about Apple versus Epic.

00:36:24 ◼   ► It is not our intention to go into a deep dive

00:36:27 ◼   ► on Apple versus Epic.

00:36:28 ◼   ► I would expect that we probably will at some point,

00:36:31 ◼   ► but since so much stuff is still developing

00:36:33 ◼   ► as we sit here and record right now,

00:36:35 ◼   ► I don't think it's worth anyone's time

00:36:37 ◼   ► going deep into what's happening.

00:36:39 ◼   ► And a lot of other places are talking about it too.

00:36:41 ◼   ► But Jon, you said you had some thoughts

00:36:43 ◼   ► you wanted to bring up with regard to Apple versus Epic.

00:36:45 ◼   ► So tell me about them.

00:36:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think we're like a week into this or whatever.

00:36:48 ◼   ► To refresh everyone's memory, this is Epic,

00:36:50 ◼   ► the game company, they got kicked out of the app store

00:36:53 ◼   ► for trying to use their own payment method.

00:36:55 ◼   ► And Fortnite, that whole thing,

00:36:56 ◼   ► we've talked about it passed in the show.

00:36:57 ◼   ► This is the court case, Epic suing Apple saying,

00:37:01 ◼   ► Apple shouldn't be allowed to do what they did to us.

00:37:02 ◼   ► And Apple saying, we totally should be allowed to do that.

00:37:05 ◼   ► And just, you know, the general consensus seems to be,

00:37:09 ◼   ► and it has always seemed from the beginning,

00:37:10 ◼   ► Apple's gonna win this court case

00:37:12 ◼   ► because Epic doesn't really have

00:37:14 ◼   ► much of a particular case to make,

00:37:15 ◼   ► except for saying, hey, no fair, we don't like that, right?

00:37:18 ◼   ► But that's just the battle.

00:37:20 ◼   ► The larger war is okay, but then what, you know,

00:37:22 ◼   ► lots of people are viewing this as like,

00:37:23 ◼   ► even if Epic loses, they're kind of winning

00:37:26 ◼   ► by making Apple look bad

00:37:28 ◼   ► and by triggering sort of government regulation.

00:37:30 ◼   ► And, you know, regardless of how this court case goes,

00:37:33 ◼   ► Apple is kind of getting it from all sides here

00:37:37 ◼   ► and under a lot of pressure to change things.

00:37:39 ◼   ► And they have been changing things,

00:37:40 ◼   ► and I think that will continue, right?

00:37:41 ◼   ► But setting that aside,

00:37:42 ◼   ► part of the function of this court case,

00:37:44 ◼   ► even if Epic loses, is the discovery process

00:37:46 ◼   ► where we, you know, the public gets to see

00:37:48 ◼   ► all sorts of things that we would never see otherwise.

00:37:50 ◼   ► Emails from inside Apple about Epic, about the App Store,

00:37:54 ◼   ► hearing people have to testify under oath

00:37:57 ◼   ► about things that are at Apple, you know,

00:37:59 ◼   ► current Apple employees, ex-Apple employees.

00:38:00 ◼   ► That's why a lot of the coverage of this is like,

00:38:02 ◼   ► you know, each day there's some new revelation about,

00:38:05 ◼   ► you know, internal communications inside Apple,

00:38:08 ◼   ► things that we wouldn't see without this court case, right?

00:38:10 ◼   ► And I've mostly not been following it too closely

00:38:13 ◼   ► 'cause again, I don't think this court case

00:38:15 ◼   ► is anything consequential that's gonna happen.

00:38:16 ◼   ► I think we just have to wait for it to be over

00:38:18 ◼   ► and then see what the actual fallout is for Apple.

00:38:21 ◼   ► But the one thing that has struck me

00:38:22 ◼   ► with all of the stuff I have read,

00:38:24 ◼   ► 'cause anytime there's something juicy,

00:38:25 ◼   ► like a good email or a good message or, you know, whatever,

00:38:28 ◼   ► that gets highlighted in various articles.

00:38:32 ◼   ► And the one thing that has struck me about all of it

00:38:34 ◼   ► from like communications inside Apple

00:38:36 ◼   ► between all the big name executives that we know,

00:38:38 ◼   ► finally we get to see what were they emailing each other

00:38:41 ◼   ► in 2008, in 2011, in 2015,

00:38:43 ◼   ► about all these App Store controversies,

00:38:45 ◼   ► a lot of them that we talked about on this show,

00:38:47 ◼   ► what were they saying to each other inside Apple?

00:38:50 ◼   ► Or about anything, not just App Store controversies,

00:38:52 ◼   ► but there's Apple corporate strategy and stuff like that.

00:38:55 ◼   ► And the thing I've been struck by

00:38:57 ◼   ► is that nothing anyone says is surprising.

00:39:01 ◼   ► Like they're saying all exactly the same things

00:39:03 ◼   ► that you would expect them to say.

00:39:05 ◼   ► Like on shows like this where we're speculating

00:39:08 ◼   ► about how Apple might think about things,

00:39:10 ◼   ► you know, how does Apple, like the one that I cut and pasted

00:39:13 ◼   ► into the show notes a couple of weeks ago was like,

00:39:15 ◼   ► Eddie Q talking to Craig Federighi

00:39:16 ◼   ► about the possibility of iMessage on Android,

00:39:18 ◼   ► how is Apple talking to itself internally

00:39:20 ◼   ► about those possibilities?

00:39:21 ◼   ► We've talked about it on our show and guess what?

00:39:23 ◼   ► They're saying all the same things.

00:39:24 ◼   ► Like there's no, like it's shocking how similar

00:39:29 ◼   ► the conversation inside Apple is

00:39:31 ◼   ► to the conversation outside Apple

00:39:32 ◼   ► in terms of what are the factors,

00:39:33 ◼   ► what are the pros, what are the cons?

00:39:36 ◼   ► The people inside Apple are just people

00:39:38 ◼   ► and they do not have it seemingly

00:39:40 ◼   ► for most of these topics that are in this discovery anyway,

00:39:42 ◼   ► there is no secret information

00:39:44 ◼   ► that really changes the landscape.

00:39:45 ◼   ► All of the factors that we would discuss in the show

00:39:48 ◼   ► about the pros and cons of iMessage and Android,

00:39:50 ◼   ► exactly what they discuss.

00:39:51 ◼   ► And there are sometimes some people making a case

00:39:53 ◼   ► on one side and sometimes people making a case on the other.

00:39:55 ◼   ► Repeat for anything you can imagine.

00:39:57 ◼   ► How do you think Apple was dealing with Epic?

00:39:59 ◼   ► Does Apple treat big companies different

00:40:01 ◼   ► than little companies and why would they?

00:40:03 ◼   ► Everything that has ever been discussed

00:40:04 ◼   ► in the entire pundit sphere about Apple?

00:40:07 ◼   ► That's exactly what's happening inside Apple.

00:40:09 ◼   ► Which reassures me that, you know,

00:40:12 ◼   ► 'cause it's always so hard

00:40:13 ◼   ► whether a company is secretive as Apple,

00:40:15 ◼   ► it's like well we're talking about all this stuff

00:40:16 ◼   ► but maybe there's stuff we don't know

00:40:18 ◼   ► and maybe the conversation inside Apple is very different.

00:40:20 ◼   ► Maybe a lot of times people will say though,

00:40:22 ◼   ► like you don't understand the secret factors

00:40:24 ◼   ► that influence this decision

00:40:26 ◼   ► and all of this discovery in this entire court case

00:40:28 ◼   ► has revealed there is no secret information.

00:40:30 ◼   ► All the factors that we were discussing,

00:40:32 ◼   ► those are the factors and these are the pros

00:40:34 ◼   ► and these are the cons

00:40:36 ◼   ► and we saw which decision they made

00:40:37 ◼   ► and they did weigh all of these factors

00:40:39 ◼   ► and there's no angle that anybody

00:40:41 ◼   ► in the sort of the news pundit sphere is missing.

00:40:44 ◼   ► It's dead straightforward.

00:40:46 ◼   ► I mean obviously they're usually talking about it

00:40:48 ◼   ► before we do because, you know,

00:40:50 ◼   ► they do know about things before we do

00:40:52 ◼   ► but by the time a story comes out

00:40:53 ◼   ► or a policy is implemented,

00:40:54 ◼   ► when we back solve and say what must they have been thinking

00:40:57 ◼   ► to implement this policy,

00:40:58 ◼   ► it's pretty much been dead on every single time

00:41:01 ◼   ► 'cause there's no secrets.

00:41:02 ◼   ► So I would encourage people to look,

00:41:04 ◼   ► I mean the transcripts are mind numbing.

00:41:05 ◼   ► That's why I wait for news articles to pull them out

00:41:08 ◼   ► 'cause I can't read that format

00:41:09 ◼   ► with like the monospace font

00:41:11 ◼   ► and the deposition format.

00:41:12 ◼   ► It's so painful so I wait for people

00:41:14 ◼   ► to pull out the juicier bits

00:41:16 ◼   ► but I encourage everyone to read it

00:41:17 ◼   ► 'cause it really does humanize the company

00:41:19 ◼   ► and the people involved

00:41:21 ◼   ► and it reveals them to be also smart

00:41:24 ◼   ► and even though they never talk about this stuff in public,

00:41:28 ◼   ► they know about all of the pros and cons.

00:41:30 ◼   ► They're just not gonna come out in public

00:41:31 ◼   ► and blab them to you but it doesn't mean

00:41:33 ◼   ► they don't know them.

00:41:33 ◼   ► It's another thing I think confuses people

00:41:35 ◼   ► at Apple is like well Apple never says anything about that

00:41:37 ◼   ► so maybe that's not how they view it.

00:41:38 ◼   ► It's totally how they view it

00:41:39 ◼   ► 'cause it's the reality.

00:41:40 ◼   ► They're just careful in what they say to the public

00:41:42 ◼   ► but when they talk to each other,

00:41:44 ◼   ► they say all the things you think they would say.

00:41:47 ◼   ► So that I find sort of reassuring and boring

00:41:51 ◼   ► and interesting in its boringness

00:41:54 ◼   ► and then the other thing I'll add is that

00:41:56 ◼   ► I am shocked at how bad people are at writing email

00:42:02 ◼   ► in every company, Apple, Epic, everyone involved

00:42:05 ◼   ► because I mean granted, I have high standards

00:42:08 ◼   ► for this stuff or whatever

00:42:09 ◼   ► but I feel like most people I communicate with

00:42:11 ◼   ► on a daily basis at my actual job are better at writing

00:42:15 ◼   ► good, coherent, well formatted, well spelled,

00:42:18 ◼   ► grammatically correct, organized emails

00:42:21 ◼   ► than most of the big wigs at Apple and Epic.

00:42:25 ◼   ► I'm not asking for much.

00:42:27 ◼   ► I'm asking for sentences, punctuation,

00:42:31 ◼   ► some sort of paragraph, some sort of reasonable formatting,

00:42:35 ◼   ► some acknowledgement of organizing your thoughts

00:42:38 ◼   ► and having respect for the time of the person

00:42:40 ◼   ► on the other end and instead it's just like

00:42:42 ◼   ► I randomly slapped this out like while running

00:42:44 ◼   ► to catch a flight or something.

00:42:46 ◼   ► I had no time to do capitalization or spelling correctly

00:42:52 ◼   ► let alone grammar, let alone formatting.

00:42:56 ◼   ► The people who try to communicate in bulleted lists

00:42:59 ◼   ► but can't bother making any kind of bullets

00:43:01 ◼   ► so they just put a hyphen touching a word

00:43:03 ◼   ► of a sentence that's all in lowercase

00:43:05 ◼   ► and then the next hyphen is on the same line

00:43:06 ◼   ► instead of a new line and it's just what an incoherent mess.

00:43:10 ◼   ► Now granted, this is not what they're hired for.

00:43:12 ◼   ► Their job is not to be experts.

00:43:13 ◼   ► They're not copywriters, right?

00:43:14 ◼   ► That's not their job.

00:43:15 ◼   ► I understand that it's not everyone's forte

00:43:18 ◼   ► but boy, the standard is low.

00:43:20 ◼   ► The standard is very low for expressing coherent thoughts

00:43:24 ◼   ► in email, maybe they're more articulate in person,

00:43:26 ◼   ► maybe the meetings that they have these discussions in

00:43:31 ◼   ► are really where it happens

00:43:32 ◼   ► and the emails are just dashed off.

00:43:33 ◼   ► Executives are busy, I totally understand it

00:43:35 ◼   ► and not everyone is a writer

00:43:37 ◼   ► but it really makes me appreciate some of the people

00:43:39 ◼   ► in my, on my teams and in my sort of org chart

00:43:42 ◼   ► and hierarchy at work of how they,

00:43:44 ◼   ► how well I should send them a nice thank you at work

00:43:46 ◼   ► and say, you know what, I never say this

00:43:48 ◼   ► but your emails are always well organized

00:43:50 ◼   ► and respect my time and have like a topic sentence

00:43:53 ◼   ► and front load the important information

00:43:54 ◼   ► and are formatted nicely

00:43:55 ◼   ► and you always spell things correctly.

00:43:57 ◼   ► Thank you for that 'cause it could be worse.

00:43:59 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:44:01 ◼   ► - Oh, it's so true.

00:44:02 ◼   ► I feel like the higher up you go in the org chart,

00:44:04 ◼   ► the less craps you give about what your emails look like.

00:44:09 ◼   ► - For sure, like no one's gonna yell at like,

00:44:12 ◼   ► I don't wanna pick a name

00:44:13 ◼   ► but no one's gonna yell at Eddy Cue for being a bad emailer.

00:44:15 ◼   ► Like again, that's not their job but, yish.

00:44:18 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:44:19 ◼   ► I just, because you feel like law of averages,

00:44:21 ◼   ► like the people at work,

00:44:21 ◼   ► like there are people who are better at emails

00:44:23 ◼   ► and worse at emails, they're better writers

00:44:24 ◼   ► and you know, like again, especially if it's not your job

00:44:27 ◼   ► but you think law of average is one of the big wigs

00:44:29 ◼   ► that Apple would be good at writing emails

00:44:31 ◼   ► and based on this documentation,

00:44:34 ◼   ► either none of them are or none of them

00:44:36 ◼   ► wanna spend the time to write a good email.

00:44:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I don't know.

00:44:40 ◼   ► To me, like, I'm with you that there's not a lot

00:44:44 ◼   ► of surprises coming out here

00:44:46 ◼   ► and that's interesting in its boringness

00:44:49 ◼   ► but I've been mostly trying to stay away from the coverage

00:44:52 ◼   ► 'cause it just keeps making me very, very angry

00:44:55 ◼   ► and I don't even wanna go into it too much here

00:44:56 ◼   ► because I'm in a good mood today

00:44:58 ◼   ► and I wanna keep that mood going.

00:44:59 ◼   ► It was a really nice day.

00:45:00 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:45:01 ◼   ► And a good time today.

00:45:03 ◼   ► But, you know, what we keep seeing from Apple

00:45:06 ◼   ► in these things is an immense sense of entitlement

00:45:11 ◼   ► to literally all commerce that happens

00:45:16 ◼   ► on their phone platform.

00:45:18 ◼   ► And I know from having posted about this on Twitter

00:45:22 ◼   ► and having gotten hundreds of responses

00:45:25 ◼   ► from people who think I'm wrong or an idiot

00:45:28 ◼   ► or naive or whatever, my main criticism of this

00:45:33 ◼   ► is that I don't believe that Apple automatically deserves

00:45:38 ◼   ► to be able to dictate terms for the entire world

00:45:42 ◼   ► of mobile commerce that's happening on their platform.

00:45:45 ◼   ► When the phone was new and when this world was smaller

00:45:48 ◼   ► and more specialized and more competitive,

00:45:51 ◼   ► you could argue, like, well, they can dictate these terms

00:45:55 ◼   ► just like a game console or whatever and okay.

00:45:59 ◼   ► I think, though, you can look at the history

00:46:02 ◼   ► of what has happened in the world over time

00:46:06 ◼   ► when a private company has built something

00:46:11 ◼   ► that has become critical infrastructure

00:46:13 ◼   ► for an entire world of commerce.

00:46:17 ◼   ► And you can look at things like the railroads,

00:46:20 ◼   ► power lines, phone lines, broadband lines.

00:46:24 ◼   ► There are lots of examples in history

00:46:27 ◼   ► where a private company has built something

00:46:30 ◼   ► that ended up being so incredibly important

00:46:33 ◼   ► to such a vast amount of commerce

00:46:36 ◼   ► and a vast part of society that even though

00:46:39 ◼   ► it was built privately, regulation had to be implemented

00:46:44 ◼   ► or antitrust measures had to be taken

00:46:47 ◼   ► because it just became too important

00:46:50 ◼   ► to weigh too much of the commerce of the world at that time.

00:46:55 ◼   ► And I think that standard should be applied here.

00:46:59 ◼   ► And if you look in a vacuum and say,

00:47:01 ◼   ► well, if Apple developed this platform,

00:47:02 ◼   ► they can dictate whatever terms they want to

00:47:04 ◼   ► for how everyone runs their business

00:47:07 ◼   ► and they can take whatever cut they want to

00:47:08 ◼   ► 'cause they built it, that argument makes sense

00:47:11 ◼   ► up to a point, up to an approximate limit

00:47:15 ◼   ► of size and complexity and importance to the world.

00:47:18 ◼   ► And the world of mobile apps is so big

00:47:23 ◼   ► and such an important part to so much commerce these days

00:47:27 ◼   ► that I think it has crossed that threshold

00:47:30 ◼   ► where regulation or antitrust actions

00:47:33 ◼   ► need to be implemented here for the benefit of society.

00:47:38 ◼   ► It is now too big, it has crossed that threshold

00:47:41 ◼   ► where that's now warranted.

00:47:43 ◼   ► And I don't think that we should have sideloading

00:47:48 ◼   ► or alternative app stores or things like that.

00:47:50 ◼   ► I actually, I think it would be better for the platform

00:47:53 ◼   ► if we don't get those things.

00:47:55 ◼   ► I do think in order to relieve this anti-competitive

00:48:00 ◼   ► behavior and kind of relieve the pressure valve on this,

00:48:03 ◼   ► I do think we need to allow apps

00:48:07 ◼   ► to have alternative payment methods if they want to.

00:48:09 ◼   ► A lot of people also misunderstand that argument

00:48:12 ◼   ► that I'm saying.

00:48:13 ◼   ► I'm not saying that everyone would stop using

00:48:16 ◼   ► Apple's payment system.

00:48:17 ◼   ► I wouldn't even stop using it in my app

00:48:20 ◼   ► because Apple's payment system has a lot of merits.

00:48:23 ◼   ► It is easier.

00:48:24 ◼   ► As a customer, I do usually choose it if I have the option.

00:48:28 ◼   ► It has a lot of advantages.

00:48:29 ◼   ► People, as Ben Thompson often says,

00:48:32 ◼   ► people tend to make sure that credit card is up to date

00:48:35 ◼   ► and so on subscription billing, you do get fewer failures

00:48:38 ◼   ► and cancellations and everything

00:48:39 ◼   ► due to expired credit cards and everything.

00:48:40 ◼   ► So there are lots of value points in Apple's system

00:48:43 ◼   ► and I think if Apple, if they allowed people

00:48:47 ◼   ► to have their own payment methods in their apps,

00:48:49 ◼   ► I think many apps would still use Apple's

00:48:52 ◼   ► just because it is somewhat competitive on those areas.

00:48:57 ◼   ► But I also don't think it is best for the world right now,

00:49:01 ◼   ► including Apple, for that to be dictated as the requirement

00:49:05 ◼   ► that everyone must use the system and no other.

00:49:07 ◼   ► For this category of digital goods

00:49:10 ◼   ► that isn't even all purchases made through the iPhone.

00:49:12 ◼   ► People keep making consumer trust arguments

00:49:14 ◼   ► and those arguments completely fail

00:49:17 ◼   ► to hold any water whatsoever once you look around

00:49:20 ◼   ► and realize how much people have no problem

00:49:22 ◼   ► using their credit cards to buy all sorts of other stuff

00:49:25 ◼   ► through the phone that doesn't fall

00:49:27 ◼   ► under in-app purchase rules, things like physical goods,

00:49:29 ◼   ► services, stuff like that.

00:49:31 ◼   ► There's lots of things that you can buy

00:49:32 ◼   ► by typing in your credit card details

00:49:34 ◼   ► or using Apple Pay on the phone,

00:49:37 ◼   ► which is not going through the App Store purchase system

00:49:40 ◼   ► and people have no trust issues with that.

00:49:43 ◼   ► So I think that whole trust issue thing,

00:49:44 ◼   ► I think that's a BS diversion.

00:49:47 ◼   ► But going back to it, I think the rule

00:49:50 ◼   ► that you must use Apple's purchase system is going to fall.

00:49:54 ◼   ► And I think Apple should let it fall,

00:49:57 ◼   ► however that happens, through lawsuits or government

00:50:00 ◼   ► or both, because if they don't let that fall,

00:50:03 ◼   ► way worse stuff is going to happen.

00:50:06 ◼   ► If they don't loosen control on that one point,

00:50:09 ◼   ► they're going to lose way more control

00:50:12 ◼   ► when governments step in and make them do things

00:50:14 ◼   ► like allow sideloading or alternative app stores,

00:50:17 ◼   ► because that's the next step.

00:50:18 ◼   ► If Apple will not budge on the payment rule,

00:50:21 ◼   ► that's going to happen long term.

00:50:23 ◼   ► And I think that's way worse for the platform

00:50:26 ◼   ► if that happens.

00:50:27 ◼   ► So I hope Apple loosens the grip

00:50:30 ◼   ► on the payment processing rule,

00:50:32 ◼   ► because that, first of all, I think that's an overstep.

00:50:36 ◼   ► I think Apple should not be requiring

00:50:40 ◼   ► that all digital purchases use their system.

00:50:43 ◼   ► I think that's overreaching,

00:50:45 ◼   ► that might have made sense 10 years ago,

00:50:46 ◼   ► it doesn't make sense now.

00:50:48 ◼   ► There are lots of problems with that,

00:50:49 ◼   ► including things like Apple launching

00:50:51 ◼   ► all their own competitive services

00:50:52 ◼   ► that competitors literally can't match

00:50:55 ◼   ► because of that pricing rule and everything.

00:50:57 ◼   ► So there's all sorts of problems with that now.

00:50:58 ◼   ► I think that rule needs to go,

00:51:00 ◼   ► as well as the rule that says that you can't talk

00:51:02 ◼   ► about the rules around payment in your app.

00:51:04 ◼   ► Those two need to go.

00:51:06 ◼   ► And I think if Apple loosens the grip on those things,

00:51:09 ◼   ► it will save them from much more severe forced changes

00:51:13 ◼   ► from governments down the road.

00:51:15 ◼   ► And so it is in their best interest to loosen that grip.

00:51:18 ◼   ► And I don't think they would actually lose

00:51:21 ◼   ► that much money by doing that.

00:51:22 ◼   ► Honestly, if you look at what people do today,

00:51:27 ◼   ► what big companies do today,

00:51:29 ◼   ► you got people like Netflix and everything

00:51:30 ◼   ► who just bailed out of in-app purchase years ago.

00:51:34 ◼   ► And so many of the big companies

00:51:37 ◼   ► that would be paying Apple 30% have already left

00:51:40 ◼   ► or already have their own alternative setup

00:51:42 ◼   ► that they're trying to draw people to.

00:51:44 ◼   ► Many of the other companies, like the big game companies,

00:51:49 ◼   ► would probably still offer Apple stuff as an option

00:51:52 ◼   ► because many people, again,

00:51:54 ◼   ► they have those credit cards entered.

00:51:56 ◼   ► You know, their parents might have certain restrictions set

00:52:00 ◼   ► for kids' purchases and everything.

00:52:02 ◼   ► So actually, I think Apple would still make a killing

00:52:05 ◼   ► with their in-app purchase system

00:52:07 ◼   ► if it got to compete on its merits.

00:52:10 ◼   ► But right now, it's not competing on its merits.

00:52:11 ◼   ► And that's anti-competitive,

00:52:13 ◼   ► and it's causing major issues for everyone, including Apple.

00:52:17 ◼   ► And if they just would loosen their grip on that one rule,

00:52:21 ◼   ► all of this antitrust pressure would disappear.

00:52:24 ◼   ► It would just vanish.

00:52:25 ◼   ► It is the biggest relief valve in the world,

00:52:28 ◼   ► and that would protect them from,

00:52:31 ◼   ► it would let them retain control on the App Store

00:52:34 ◼   ► and on distribution of software on iOS still.

00:52:36 ◼   ► And if they don't let go of that,

00:52:38 ◼   ► they're going to lose that control.

00:52:40 ◼   ► It might take a few more years,

00:52:41 ◼   ► but they're going to lose it.

00:52:43 ◼   ► Now, part two of what makes me incredibly upset

00:52:46 ◼   ► of following this story is Apple's incredibly arrogant

00:52:51 ◼   ► and entitled and greedy and dismissive attitude

00:52:54 ◼   ► towards developers.

00:52:56 ◼   ► I have never been less excited about WWDC

00:53:01 ◼   ► than I am this year,

00:53:02 ◼   ► because what Apple keeps showing

00:53:04 ◼   ► in their statements around this,

00:53:06 ◼   ► they think we owe them everything.

00:53:09 ◼   ► They don't value our contributions at all.

00:53:13 ◼   ► They think we owe them our entire business.

00:53:16 ◼   ► And they think we should be kissing their feet

00:53:20 ◼   ► and thanking them for enabling our entire business

00:53:23 ◼   ► to function, and we need to be quote,

00:53:25 ◼   ► paying our way for the App Store

00:53:27 ◼   ► and paying for their developer tools

00:53:30 ◼   ► with our 30% commissions.

00:53:31 ◼   ► We should be bowing down and kissing their feet.

00:53:34 ◼   ► And that attitude, I'm telling you, man,

00:53:38 ◼   ► that, that rubs me the wrong way so hard,

00:53:42 ◼   ► because we have our own businesses, thank you very much,

00:53:46 ◼   ► and we add value to their platform.

00:53:49 ◼   ► We add tons of value to their platform.

00:53:52 ◼   ► How many people would buy iPhones

00:53:54 ◼   ► if they didn't have third party apps?

00:53:57 ◼   ► I bet a lot less than how many buy them now.

00:54:01 ◼   ► So we add value to their platform,

00:54:02 ◼   ► even if we don't give them a dime.

00:54:04 ◼   ► And that's why they allow lots of apps on their store

00:54:07 ◼   ► that don't give them a dime, that are free

00:54:08 ◼   ► or ad-based or whatever.

00:54:09 ◼   ► That's why, because they know this too.

00:54:12 ◼   ► Now, in addition to us, to them not needing our 30%,

00:54:17 ◼   ► because we make the iPhone valuable

00:54:19 ◼   ► and they make a lot of money off the iPhone,

00:54:21 ◼   ► we do pay them in other ways.

00:54:23 ◼   ► Every single developer pays $100 a year

00:54:25 ◼   ► for the developer fee.

00:54:26 ◼   ► And then there's search ads that many of us are paying now.

00:54:31 ◼   ► I have spent a large part of the last couple of years

00:54:36 ◼   ► paying absurd amounts of money to Apple for search ads.

00:54:41 ◼   ► I do this willingly, I'm not being fooled by the system,

00:54:45 ◼   ► I am sometimes being ripped off by it,

00:54:46 ◼   ► but I'm not being fooled by it,

00:54:47 ◼   ► I know exactly what I'm getting into, and I choose to pay.

00:54:50 ◼   ► And here I am paying Apple some more,

00:54:53 ◼   ► and they just literally,

00:54:54 ◼   ► they just launched a new search ad unit,

00:54:57 ◼   ► which I had a hilarious overpriced experience with

00:55:00 ◼   ► that I instantly stopped after setting

00:55:03 ◼   ► almost $1,000 on fire accidentally.

00:55:05 ◼   ► That was fun.

00:55:06 ◼   ► But they make money from us in lots of other ways.

00:55:11 ◼   ► We are paying our way by trying to get our apps

00:55:14 ◼   ► visible in their store, which is not doing much

00:55:16 ◼   ► for creation, for curation rather,

00:55:17 ◼   ► or promotion of our apps, despite what they say.

00:55:21 ◼   ► So they make lots of money off of us already.

00:55:24 ◼   ► They're trying to play this sad SAP card

00:55:27 ◼   ► that we owe them and we gotta pay our way

00:55:29 ◼   ► to fund the app store.

00:55:30 ◼   ► No, the app store is very well funded,

00:55:32 ◼   ► even without that 30%.

00:55:33 ◼   ► And if they loosen that rule,

00:55:36 ◼   ► they're not going to lose the entire 30%.

00:55:38 ◼   ► They're going to lose some of it.

00:55:40 ◼   ► But I honestly don't think it would be

00:55:43 ◼   ► more than a drop in the bucket

00:55:44 ◼   ► compared to all the other services revenue

00:55:45 ◼   ► that they're making off of us,

00:55:46 ◼   ► especially from things like search ads and everything else.

00:55:48 ◼   ► So I think that the attitude that they are showing in this

00:55:53 ◼   ► is both nearly delusional, as well as I think

00:55:58 ◼   ► many of their arguments are made in bad faith

00:56:00 ◼   ► to intentionally distract and distort the discussion.

00:56:03 ◼   ► I mean, granted they're lawyers,

00:56:04 ◼   ► that's their job, but still.

00:56:06 ◼   ► And I think finally, the attitude they have shown

00:56:09 ◼   ► about the way they view developers

00:56:12 ◼   ► and the way they view how much they think

00:56:15 ◼   ► they're entitled to from us,

00:56:17 ◼   ► how much they think we should be bowing down

00:56:19 ◼   ► and kissing their feet,

00:56:20 ◼   ► and how little they think of us overall.

00:56:23 ◼   ► This year at WWDC, that's all I'm gonna be thinking about.

00:56:28 ◼   ► And when they have people up there on stage

00:56:30 ◼   ► telling us how great we are and trying to rile us up,

00:56:34 ◼   ► all I'm gonna be thinking about

00:56:35 ◼   ► is how much Apple has shown over and over again

00:56:38 ◼   ► in their statements, in arguments like this,

00:56:41 ◼   ► how little they really think of us

00:56:43 ◼   ► and how much they think they're entitled to all of our money.

00:56:46 ◼   ► Everything they say at WWDC, as far as I'm concerned,

00:56:48 ◼   ► about what they think of developers is total bullshit

00:56:50 ◼   ► as long as these people are still in charge.

00:56:52 ◼   ► - You know, I have a lot of thoughts about this,

00:56:55 ◼   ► and I should start by saying that I pretty much agree

00:57:00 ◼   ► with everything you just said.

00:57:02 ◼   ► I am, you know, at best, I am a teeny tiny itty bitty

00:57:07 ◼   ► indie developer on the App Store.

00:57:09 ◼   ► I am nowhere near the position that you're in.

00:57:11 ◼   ► And in fact, I bet you John is probably a bigger developer

00:57:14 ◼   ► than me at this particular moment.

00:57:16 ◼   ► But yeah, something I've been thinking about,

00:57:19 ◼   ► to go back to the earlier part of your conversation, Marco,

00:57:22 ◼   ► and then I'd like to come back to what you just said.

00:57:24 ◼   ► I've been thinking a lot over the last week or two

00:57:27 ◼   ► about the Epic lawsuit and a lot of the things

00:57:30 ◼   ► that Apple's been saying lately,

00:57:32 ◼   ► and whether the 30% is fair.

00:57:35 ◼   ► And I've been thinking about this even since, you know,

00:57:37 ◼   ► the small business program or whatever they call it.

00:57:40 ◼   ► And it's funny you bring up

00:57:42 ◼   ► what I think is basically common carrier here in the States.

00:57:45 ◼   ► But what you were saying was, you know,

00:57:47 ◼   ► at some point you reached a threshold where this is too,

00:57:50 ◼   ► this infrastructure is too important,

00:57:52 ◼   ► and it becomes kind of a public good to a degree.

00:57:56 ◼   ► Even though it's a private company's thing,

00:57:59 ◼   ► it's so important to so much of the country,

00:58:01 ◼   ► if not the world, that it becomes kind of de facto public.

00:58:05 ◼   ► And I definitely think that the App Store is at that point,

00:58:10 ◼   ► without question.

00:58:12 ◼   ► And I definitely do not think, as you were saying earlier,

00:58:15 ◼   ► that early on it was.

00:58:17 ◼   ► I think early on in the first, I don't know,

00:58:19 ◼   ► two to four years of the App Store,

00:58:21 ◼   ► I don't think it was in this like common carrier

00:58:23 ◼   ► de facto public position.

00:58:25 ◼   ► And I don't think it's unreasonable for Apple

00:58:27 ◼   ► to have set the terms to even potentially just, you know,

00:58:30 ◼   ► the 30% may not have been so unreasonable then.

00:58:33 ◼   ► But at this point,

00:58:35 ◼   ► now that it's a seemingly well-oiled machine,

00:58:38 ◼   ► and now that Apple gets to on one side of its mouth say,

00:58:41 ◼   ► "Oh, look at all the money we've paid all these developers.

00:58:43 ◼   ► "You're welcome, everybody.

00:58:45 ◼   ► "Look at all this money that we got for you."

00:58:47 ◼   ► You know, if they're gonna say all those things,

00:58:50 ◼   ► then I feel like they should show

00:58:52 ◼   ► a little more goodwill than they have.

00:58:54 ◼   ► And the problem I have with this whole common carrier

00:58:57 ◼   ► argument that I've been building in my brain is,

00:58:59 ◼   ► at what point did we cross that threshold?

00:59:01 ◼   ► And I've yet to come up with a good answer for it.

00:59:03 ◼   ► I don't know if it was after two to four years,

00:59:05 ◼   ► I don't know if it was just 10 minutes ago,

00:59:07 ◼   ► or presumably somewhere in between.

00:59:09 ◼   ► But I completely and utterly agree

00:59:12 ◼   ► that we are at that threshold where

00:59:14 ◼   ► I think more regulation is probably necessary.

00:59:17 ◼   ► Even if Apple does the right thing,

00:59:20 ◼   ► even if they do the things that you said, which I agree,

00:59:22 ◼   ► even if they say, "Okay, you're allowed to talk

00:59:24 ◼   ► "about the rules in app, and okay,

00:59:25 ◼   ► "you're allowed to use your own payment method in app."

00:59:28 ◼   ► Even still, I kind of wonder if regulation

00:59:31 ◼   ► would be necessary and/or helpful

00:59:34 ◼   ► to prevent them from reneging,

00:59:36 ◼   ► or to prevent them from coming up

00:59:38 ◼   ► with some cockamamie scheme like search ads

00:59:40 ◼   ► that makes things gross again, or grosser, if you will.

00:59:45 ◼   ► And I don't know, it's just, I definitely think,

00:59:48 ◼   ► and I was planning to bring it up tonight,

00:59:49 ◼   ► so great minds think alike, I definitely think

00:59:51 ◼   ► we've reached that threshold though,

00:59:52 ◼   ► where this is a de facto public good.

00:59:55 ◼   ► The other thing I wanted to comment on,

00:59:57 ◼   ► I completely and utterly agree with you saying

01:00:00 ◼   ► that Apple is looking for us to kiss their feet

01:00:02 ◼   ► and saying, "Oh, you owe us, you owe us, you owe us."

01:00:06 ◼   ► I 100% agree, however, for the sake of conversation,

01:00:10 ◼   ► are they saying that because they're thinking

01:00:14 ◼   ► of Facebook and WhatsApp and people like them,

01:00:16 ◼   ► and they're not thinking of the Us and the Mes

01:00:19 ◼   ► and the Johns of the world?

01:00:20 ◼   ► Again, I agree with you, don't get me wrong,

01:00:22 ◼   ► I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here.

01:00:24 ◼   ► Do you think that they're confusing the message

01:00:26 ◼   ► a little bit because they're saying these things

01:00:28 ◼   ► without any caveats or asterisks or daggers

01:00:30 ◼   ► or double daggers, but really what they're thinking of

01:00:33 ◼   ► when they say these things are,

01:00:34 ◼   ► "Screw you Facebook, look at all the money we've made you

01:00:37 ◼   ► "with our app store," where what you and I are hearing

01:00:40 ◼   ► and Jon is hearing is, "Screw you, John, Marco and Casey,

01:00:44 ◼   ► "you should be thankful we gave you a darn cent,

01:00:46 ◼   ► "much less the tens or hundreds or hundreds of thousands

01:00:49 ◼   ► "or whatever dollars that any of you have made."

01:00:51 ◼   ► Do you think it's that they're thinking

01:00:54 ◼   ► of an entire different niche of developer,

01:00:57 ◼   ► or do you think that they just are thinking

01:00:58 ◼   ► of every single developer on the app store?

01:01:00 ◼   ► - I mean, I'm not thinking of that directly,

01:01:02 ◼   ► and Marco already touched on this,

01:01:03 ◼   ► so I think Marco knows, at least intellectually,

01:01:06 ◼   ► partially what's going on here,

01:01:07 ◼   ► although it doesn't make him less pissed about it.

01:01:09 ◼   ► Remember, this is a court case,

01:01:12 ◼   ► and the lawyers who are working for Apple

01:01:14 ◼   ► have to make the strongest possible argument,

01:01:16 ◼   ► which is another reason I will cite

01:01:17 ◼   ► that even though it looks like Apple

01:01:18 ◼   ► is gonna lose this court case

01:01:19 ◼   ► 'cause it doesn't seem to have

01:01:20 ◼   ► particularly good legal standing,

01:01:22 ◼   ► the damage done to Apple is by forcing Apple

01:01:25 ◼   ► to make their quote-unquote strongest argument,

01:01:28 ◼   ► which requires them to dump all over developers.

01:01:30 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:01:31 ◼   ► You're saying, "This is our store, we run it, you owe us."

01:01:34 ◼   ► Apple is making all these arguments

01:01:37 ◼   ► that make Apple look bad

01:01:38 ◼   ► because they are the best legal arguments,

01:01:41 ◼   ► given the current laws, right?

01:01:42 ◼   ► And so every time an Apple lawyer gets up there

01:01:46 ◼   ► and just dumps all over developers

01:01:48 ◼   ► and basically says, "Epic should be thanking us,

01:01:51 ◼   ► "and I can't believe the nerve of them trying to say

01:01:53 ◼   ► "that they wanna run a store within our store,

01:01:56 ◼   ► "and don't they understand what we're doing for them,"

01:01:58 ◼   ► or whatever, it's because this is the strongest argument

01:02:00 ◼   ► in their favor, legally speaking,

01:02:02 ◼   ► and probably why they're going to win.

01:02:04 ◼   ► But it hurts Apple's reputation with developers so much

01:02:07 ◼   ► because it's like, "We can hear you, you know, Apple.

01:02:09 ◼   ► "We hear you saying these things."

01:02:11 ◼   ► And so, yeah, it definitely hurts a lot

01:02:13 ◼   ► if you're a developer to hear all this stuff.

01:02:15 ◼   ► Now, when we look at these stuff from discovery,

01:02:17 ◼   ► you do see that same thing echoed in emails

01:02:20 ◼   ► within Apple over the decades.

01:02:21 ◼   ► So I'm not saying this is just a lawyer thing.

01:02:23 ◼   ► The lawyers have to be out there today now

01:02:26 ◼   ► making the strongest possible argument,

01:02:27 ◼   ► and also probably, the lawyers don't run Apple,

01:02:29 ◼   ► they're just trying to win the case, right?

01:02:32 ◼   ► But then you see those same arguments

01:02:33 ◼   ► inside Apple over the years,

01:02:34 ◼   ► but you also see the other side of those arguments

01:02:37 ◼   ► inside Apple over the years.

01:02:38 ◼   ► So it's clear that at various times,

01:02:39 ◼   ► various people have brought up,

01:02:41 ◼   ► you know, one of them that's been circulated a lot

01:02:42 ◼   ► is Phil Schiller saying, just years and years ago, saying,

01:02:45 ◼   ► "Do we really think we can stick to 30% forever?"

01:02:48 ◼   ► I know we kinda just did 30% as like,

01:02:49 ◼   ► it seemed like a good deal, but like,

01:02:51 ◼   ► as the years go on and as the store gets bigger,

01:02:54 ◼   ► do we really think it's tenable to keep it at 30%?

01:02:57 ◼   ► Or should we maybe think about lowering it,

01:02:59 ◼   ► like, on our own from a position of strength

01:03:02 ◼   ► rather than being forced to lower it?

01:03:04 ◼   ► And it seems like Phil lost that argument,

01:03:05 ◼   ► because the answer is, we're not gonna do it

01:03:08 ◼   ► until Congress essentially starts making noises

01:03:10 ◼   ► and we get scared, right?

01:03:11 ◼   ► - Maybe that's why he's on the roof.

01:03:13 ◼   ► - Even then, we'll do it in a jerky way

01:03:14 ◼   ► that makes it complicated to make people apply

01:03:16 ◼   ► and have all these dumb rules,

01:03:18 ◼   ► and you know, we've talked about this in the past, right?

01:03:20 ◼   ► So, like, this is another example of the boringness of,

01:03:23 ◼   ► like, when we were all talking out here of like,

01:03:25 ◼   ► it seems like Apple really doesn't respect developers,

01:03:27 ◼   ► and it seems like Apple is thinking of developers

01:03:29 ◼   ► in this way, you could, people could say like,

01:03:31 ◼   ► oh, that's a very uncharitable interpretation of Apple.

01:03:34 ◼   ► You don't know what they're saying internally.

01:03:35 ◼   ► Just because you see this policy doesn't mean

01:03:37 ◼   ► that they have this dim view of developers,

01:03:39 ◼   ► but now that we see the discovery, we're like,

01:03:41 ◼   ► that dim view of developers exists within Apple

01:03:44 ◼   ► and was a factor in these decisions, right?

01:03:46 ◼   ► Also, we get to see the other side,

01:03:48 ◼   ► and that, you know, Apple is a big group of people,

01:03:50 ◼   ► not everyone agrees all the time,

01:03:51 ◼   ► and at various times, people have had different ideas

01:03:54 ◼   ► about what they should do.

01:03:55 ◼   ► The iMessage thing is a great example.

01:03:56 ◼   ► I didn't dig into that because, I guess we'll put a link

01:03:58 ◼   ► in the show notes, you can look at it or whatever,

01:03:59 ◼   ► but it was like, you know, Eddy Q was saying,

01:04:02 ◼   ► like, it's a quote, "We really need to bring iMessage

01:04:04 ◼   ► to Android," right?

01:04:05 ◼   ► Like, he wants to, like, he realizes iMessage

01:04:09 ◼   ► is a big thing, and by keeping it Apple only,

01:04:12 ◼   ► we're stopping ourselves from, like, becoming dominant,

01:04:15 ◼   ► the dominant messaging platform, kind of like, you know,

01:04:18 ◼   ► like cross-platform messaging to sort of own the world

01:04:21 ◼   ► of messaging, seems like we could do that.

01:04:22 ◼   ► We're doing really well, and the other side of that is like,

01:04:24 ◼   ► yeah, but iMessage does keep people on the iPhone, right?

01:04:27 ◼   ► And it's a thing that keeps people from buying

01:04:29 ◼   ► their kids' cheap Android phones

01:04:31 ◼   ► because they want to be able to do iMessage,

01:04:32 ◼   ► and like, again, both sides of the issue are presented.

01:04:36 ◼   ► One side is kind of like, oh, you know,

01:04:39 ◼   ► we're leaving money on the table.

01:04:40 ◼   ► We could become the dominant force,

01:04:42 ◼   ► and the other side is, but we need to protect ourselves,

01:04:44 ◼   ► right, and all these developer issues are the same thing.

01:04:47 ◼   ► Someone's saying, we've had 30% for a while,

01:04:49 ◼   ► and like, there's no real reason for it

01:04:51 ◼   ► other than we can get away with it.

01:04:53 ◼   ► Is it a great policy to just see how long we can get away

01:04:55 ◼   ► with it until the peasants revolt,

01:04:57 ◼   ► or should we now, so we can look magnanimous?

01:05:00 ◼   ► And again, I think this was like 2011 or '14,

01:05:03 ◼   ► like, this is not like last year they were discussing this.

01:05:05 ◼   ► This was a longer time ago, you know,

01:05:07 ◼   ► and the pitch was, let's do it, let's do it now.

01:05:10 ◼   ► We can see like, oh, everyone would just be so happy.

01:05:12 ◼   ► Imagine that WWC, whatever year it was,

01:05:14 ◼   ► if it like in 2011 or 2014 or something,

01:05:16 ◼   ► Apple had just come out on stage and said,

01:05:18 ◼   ► remember the 30%?

01:05:19 ◼   ► Now it's 15 for everybody.

01:05:21 ◼   ► People would have gone nuts.

01:05:22 ◼   ► Like, we would have loved it.

01:05:23 ◼   ► It would have been, you know,

01:05:24 ◼   ► 'cause it wouldn't be because Congress is investigating them.

01:05:27 ◼   ► It wouldn't be because they're being sued,

01:05:29 ◼   ► you know what I mean?

01:05:30 ◼   ► It would be because Apple sort of read the room

01:05:33 ◼   ► and figured, let's do this now

01:05:34 ◼   ► so we look like the good guy.

01:05:36 ◼   ► But you know, that faction or that idea

01:05:39 ◼   ► didn't go anywhere inside Apple,

01:05:41 ◼   ► and they had to wait until it came to this.

01:05:44 ◼   ► So anyway, I feel differently than both of you

01:05:48 ◼   ► about the whole sort of monopoly aspect

01:05:51 ◼   ► and how important Apple is

01:05:52 ◼   ► and all that other things or whatever.

01:05:54 ◼   ► But I agree on the important part,

01:05:56 ◼   ► which is we can make new laws and we should,

01:05:59 ◼   ► and Apple is going to be subject to them.

01:06:01 ◼   ► So Apple really should get out ahead of this

01:06:04 ◼   ► even more than they have.

01:06:05 ◼   ► And even when Apple wins this case,

01:06:07 ◼   ► they should really strongly consider

01:06:09 ◼   ► the things that Marco is suggesting

01:06:11 ◼   ► or other things like that,

01:06:12 ◼   ► because, you know, just ask Microsoft,

01:06:15 ◼   ► if you try to take a hard line,

01:06:16 ◼   ► it may not kill your company

01:06:18 ◼   ► and they may not even break you up,

01:06:19 ◼   ► but there was a long period

01:06:21 ◼   ► where after the Microsoft antitrust trial,

01:06:23 ◼   ► where Microsoft was like wounded, let's say,

01:06:27 ◼   ► it was limping for a while.

01:06:28 ◼   ► Like it hurt Microsoft to go through that

01:06:31 ◼   ► and it took them a long time to recover.

01:06:33 ◼   ► And they never were what they were before,

01:06:36 ◼   ► which is probably a good thing

01:06:37 ◼   ► 'cause we didn't need that in the world.

01:06:39 ◼   ► But if Apple wants to learn from that,

01:06:42 ◼   ► and I think Apple has learned by like doing stuff,

01:06:45 ◼   ► they did the small business program,

01:06:48 ◼   ► they're trying to loosen things up or whatever,

01:06:50 ◼   ► but at the same time,

01:06:51 ◼   ► they have a bunch of lawyers every day

01:06:53 ◼   ► spouting stuff and news stories

01:06:54 ◼   ► that makes Apple look so bad

01:06:56 ◼   ► to many of its stakeholders, right?

01:06:59 ◼   ► To the public too, I think it makes Apple look bad,

01:07:01 ◼   ► but certainly to developers.

01:07:02 ◼   ► And I've seen so many sour attitudes

01:07:04 ◼   ► about how developers are feeling.

01:07:06 ◼   ► And I feel like Apple could say,

01:07:07 ◼   ► "But the lawyers are just saying that.

01:07:09 ◼   ► And I know we said that in an email,

01:07:10 ◼   ► but look, here's the other email.

01:07:11 ◼   ► We discussed it internally,

01:07:12 ◼   ► but just don't pay that into the lawyers.

01:07:14 ◼   ► They have to say this to win the case."

01:07:16 ◼   ► And they're gonna win the case.

01:07:17 ◼   ► But don't feel bad developers.

01:07:20 ◼   ► And it's like, "Nah, I don't think humans work like that,

01:07:23 ◼   ► Apple, we're still kinda pissed at you."

01:07:24 ◼   ► - Well, and it's not just the lawyer saying it.

01:07:26 ◼   ► It's the executives saying it.

01:07:27 ◼   ► It's the press statements saying it.

01:07:29 ◼   ► It's all the little PR studies they put out about,

01:07:32 ◼   ► "Look how many jobs we're creating."

01:07:34 ◼   ► You can see it, and it's in those emails

01:07:37 ◼   ► from higher ups and everything.

01:07:40 ◼   ► This is not just something the lawyers are saying.

01:07:42 ◼   ► The attitude that Apple reflects--

01:07:44 ◼   ► - Like I said, it is in the emails,

01:07:45 ◼   ► but the other side is also in the emails.

01:07:46 ◼   ► The other side is not from lawyers mouths ever.

01:07:49 ◼   ► Fair enough, but there's not a lot

01:07:50 ◼   ► of that other side in the emails.

01:07:53 ◼   ► At this point, it's hard to quantify

01:07:55 ◼   ► how much developer goodwill Apple has set on fire

01:07:59 ◼   ► in the last couple of years.

01:08:01 ◼   ► But they just keep digging and digging and digging.

01:08:04 ◼   ► I mean, I don't wanna speak out of turn here,

01:08:09 ◼   ► but occasionally Apple has asked me for some kind of quote

01:08:15 ◼   ► or possible thing they could use in a press release.

01:08:19 ◼   ► I wouldn't give it to them now.

01:08:21 ◼   ► They haven't asked recently, but I would comply in the past.

01:08:24 ◼   ► I would gladly try to help them out

01:08:26 ◼   ► 'cause I had a better image

01:08:28 ◼   ► of what that relationship might have been.

01:08:31 ◼   ► That goodwill is gone now.

01:08:34 ◼   ► I would not cooperate with them on that kind of stuff now

01:08:37 ◼   ► because the way I view my relationship with Apple

01:08:41 ◼   ► as a developer is completely different now

01:08:43 ◼   ► than it was a couple of years ago.

01:08:45 ◼   ► And I see now really what it is and how they see it.

01:08:50 ◼   ► And I see that they don't value me very well.

01:08:53 ◼   ► They think things about our relationship that I don't think.

01:08:57 ◼   ► I see things very differently.

01:08:59 ◼   ► And I can't imagine looking across the industry

01:09:02 ◼   ► how many developers feel similarly.

01:09:04 ◼   ► Like how many developers might do something

01:09:07 ◼   ► to work with Apple or to help them out who now won't?

01:09:10 ◼   ► How many apps that developers were thinking about making

01:09:14 ◼   ► that they now just won't?

01:09:15 ◼   ► How much developers are motivated

01:09:17 ◼   ► to adopt Apple's newest technologies

01:09:20 ◼   ► to support Apple's newest devices who now just won't?

01:09:23 ◼   ► How many developers out there who might have tried

01:09:25 ◼   ► a cool new business model in one of their apps

01:09:28 ◼   ► but can't because of the stupid end-of-purchase rules

01:09:30 ◼   ► or won't even go near it because it's near the edge

01:09:34 ◼   ► of the rules and they know better than to even step near them

01:09:37 ◼   ► 'cause they know Apple will just bite their head off

01:09:38 ◼   ► at any moment.

01:09:39 ◼   ► It's really hard to quantify all of this,

01:09:43 ◼   ► but this is real massive damage Apple has done

01:09:46 ◼   ► to themselves out of sheer greed.

01:09:50 ◼   ► I have very little respect for the leadership of Tim Cook.

01:09:54 ◼   ► I know a lot of people out there like him.

01:09:55 ◼   ► I really don't.

01:09:57 ◼   ► And this is one of the areas that I think he has

01:10:00 ◼   ► really put short-term gains above long-term value.

01:10:05 ◼   ► And I can't imagine how they're gonna recover from this.

01:10:09 ◼   ► It's gonna take a decade to recover from this

01:10:11 ◼   ► if they turn around now.

01:10:13 ◼   ► Like the opinion developers have of Apple,

01:10:16 ◼   ► I don't think has ever been lower than right now.

01:10:19 ◼   ► They're gonna have to really change a lot of things

01:10:21 ◼   ► to turn that around.

01:10:22 ◼   ► And I don't see them changing any of them.

01:10:23 ◼   ► And furthermore, and I do very much agree,

01:10:27 ◼   ► as I was saying earlier, and as you were touching on,

01:10:29 ◼   ► Jon, a minute ago, I can't imagine it would be a good thing

01:10:34 ◼   ► if the government had to step in and really slap Apple down

01:10:37 ◼   ► in a big way with things like alternative app stores

01:10:40 ◼   ► or sideloading.

01:10:41 ◼   ► That would be a very bad thing for the platform.

01:10:44 ◼   ► I really hope that Apple sees that too

01:10:47 ◼   ► and that Apple pulls their own relief valve

01:10:50 ◼   ► before government has to do that to them.

01:10:52 ◼   ► 'Cause that's not a good thing

01:10:53 ◼   ► if that happens to the platform.

01:10:54 ◼   ► But again, why Apple hasn't pulled this relief valve yet

01:10:57 ◼   ► I think is entirely down to just short-term gains.

01:11:00 ◼   ► It's a services revenue company now.

01:11:02 ◼   ► Look at all the services revenue growth.

01:11:03 ◼   ► What services revenue mostly means

01:11:06 ◼   ► is the Google search deal and app store taxes.

01:11:08 ◼   ► That's what that mostly means.

01:11:09 ◼   ► It's not everyone buying Apple TV Plus.

01:11:12 ◼   ► News break, it's not everybody buying Apple Arcade.

01:11:16 ◼   ► That's not most of that revenue.

01:11:17 ◼   ► Most of that revenue is the Google search deal

01:11:20 ◼   ► and app store taxes.

01:11:21 ◼   ► So when Apple says services revenue,

01:11:24 ◼   ► that's what they're talking about.

01:11:25 ◼   ► So I can't imagine the current leadership of this company

01:11:30 ◼   ► doing anything that would reduce that number,

01:11:32 ◼   ► that quarterly number, even though it is really very much

01:11:36 ◼   ► a short-term quarterly numbers game

01:11:37 ◼   ► that we always make fun of other companies,

01:11:39 ◼   ► CEOs for focusing on the short-term gains

01:11:42 ◼   ► at the expense of long-term values and things.

01:11:45 ◼   ► But that's what I see Apple doing with services revenue.

01:11:47 ◼   ► And I don't see anything changing anytime soon

01:11:50 ◼   ► unless the leadership changes.

01:11:52 ◼   ► - I think that they'll,

01:11:53 ◼   ► you don't need to change the leadership changes.

01:11:54 ◼   ► They'll react, they'll change.

01:11:56 ◼   ► I mean, they already have with the reduction of cuts.

01:11:58 ◼   ► And I think they're gonna go more in that direction

01:12:00 ◼   ► as they realize what's gonna happen.

01:12:02 ◼   ► And if you think the developer faith in Apple

01:12:06 ◼   ► has never been lower, you haven't been an Apple developer

01:12:09 ◼   ► for enough decades because if we had to pick

01:12:13 ◼   ► the real low point, I would probably say,

01:12:16 ◼   ► like either just before Jobs came back

01:12:18 ◼   ► or right after he came back,

01:12:20 ◼   ► because like the various modern OS efforts they made

01:12:25 ◼   ► and the various new APIs they introduced and trashed,

01:12:27 ◼   ► and like, I think that was probably the lowest point

01:12:29 ◼   ► because they had so few developers

01:12:31 ◼   ► and they were just jerking them around constantly

01:12:33 ◼   ► with like, you're gonna do this

01:12:34 ◼   ► and you're gonna use this new API, nevermind that one,

01:12:36 ◼   ► but here's new OS plan, it'll be out next year,

01:12:38 ◼   ► nevermind we're doing a different plan,

01:12:39 ◼   ► where here's this thing, nevermind we bought next,

01:12:40 ◼   ► and it was just like, wow.

01:12:42 ◼   ► Like it was, I mean, if you wanna watch that,

01:12:44 ◼   ► the famous Q&A session with Steve Jobs at WWDC in 1997,

01:12:49 ◼   ► the anger in that audience is just like,

01:12:53 ◼   ► you can feel like heat coming off the seats,

01:12:55 ◼   ► like it's just, it was, and for good reason,

01:12:58 ◼   ► because it was a giant mess.

01:12:59 ◼   ► At least that was Jobs saying like,

01:13:01 ◼   ► look, I didn't make this mess,

01:13:02 ◼   ► I wasn't even here for the past few years.

01:13:04 ◼   ► But let me just explain to you how we're gonna fix it

01:13:06 ◼   ► and having everyone in the audience not believe him.

01:13:08 ◼   ► That's a great thing to watch, by the way,

01:13:09 ◼   ► we should find a link to that,

01:13:11 ◼   ► because in that 1997 Q&A with Steve Jobs,

01:13:13 ◼   ► can you imagine a WWDC session where Steve Jobs

01:13:16 ◼   ► gets up on stage and just takes freeform questions

01:13:18 ◼   ► from the audience?

01:13:19 ◼   ► Not a thing that would happen in later years, right?

01:13:23 ◼   ► But when he did it, he essentially outlined his entire plan

01:13:26 ◼   ► for what he's gonna do with Apple,

01:13:28 ◼   ► and it sounded ridiculous and no one believed him,

01:13:30 ◼   ► they all hated him, and then he essentially did it all.

01:13:32 ◼   ► And it was just like, you watch it now in hindsight,

01:13:34 ◼   ► and you're like, what?

01:13:35 ◼   ► And the audience just does not believe a word of it.

01:13:38 ◼   ► They're just like, we've been burned too many times,

01:13:40 ◼   ► you make all these promises, we do all this work,

01:13:43 ◼   ► and then you pull the rug out from under us

01:13:44 ◼   ► and you just keep asking us to do a new thing.

01:13:46 ◼   ► So anyway, it has been worse,

01:13:47 ◼   ► but that was decades ago, who cares?

01:13:50 ◼   ► I did wanna say that I looked up the email

01:13:51 ◼   ► that I was trying to refer to.

01:13:52 ◼   ► It was 2011, 2011 from Phil Schiller,

01:13:55 ◼   ► the App Store was what, 2008?

01:13:57 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Right?

01:13:58 ◼   ► So this is three years into the App Store,

01:14:00 ◼   ► Phil Schiller comes out with his own infinite timeline thing.

01:14:03 ◼   ► Food for thought, do we think our 70/30 split

01:14:05 ◼   ► will last forever?

01:14:07 ◼   ► I mean, he's gonna say, sure, it's good now,

01:14:08 ◼   ► but is it gonna be forever?

01:14:10 ◼   ► And then you can read the email,

01:14:12 ◼   ► I'll put a link in the show,

01:14:13 ◼   ► it's one of these stories that says forever.

01:14:14 ◼   ► 2011, so it's not even like they were waiting until like,

01:14:18 ◼   ► wow, there's a little bit of pushback from the App Store

01:14:21 ◼   ► and around 2017 or so, this is 2011, it's only three years.

01:14:26 ◼   ► The App Store is three years old.

01:14:29 ◼   ► And he's like, maybe once we start making $1 billion a year

01:14:32 ◼   ► in profit from the App Store,

01:14:34 ◼   ► we could think about lowering the rate,

01:14:36 ◼   ► because hey, if we're making a billion dollars in profit,

01:14:38 ◼   ► I think we can afford to lower the rate.

01:14:40 ◼   ► Anyway, look at the email.

01:14:41 ◼   ► As he said, just food for thought.

01:14:43 ◼   ► Apple did not eat that food.

01:14:44 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:14:46 ◼   ► Apple spit that food back out.

01:14:48 ◼   ► And again, Discovery doesn't show you

01:14:50 ◼   ► every single relevant email to these discussions,

01:14:52 ◼   ► and I'm sure there's lots of discussions

01:14:55 ◼   ► in person over the years, right?

01:14:56 ◼   ► So it shows me that these thoughts are in Apple's mind,

01:15:01 ◼   ► but we know what they did,

01:15:02 ◼   ► and we know the only thing that actually caused them to act

01:15:05 ◼   ► has been this government pressure.

01:15:07 ◼   ► And the thing you were talking about, Marko,

01:15:08 ◼   ► of developers sentiment turning south

01:15:11 ◼   ► and all the things they're missing out on,

01:15:13 ◼   ► I think the biggest reason that I'm rooting for

01:15:17 ◼   ► some kind of regulation in this area

01:15:20 ◼   ► that affects not just Apple but everybody

01:15:22 ◼   ► is the idea behind, hey,

01:15:23 ◼   ► if you can't make your business plan work in the App Store,

01:15:26 ◼   ► or if you don't like Apple's terms or whatever,

01:15:29 ◼   ► although Apple, I think, is not a monopoly

01:15:32 ◼   ► and therefore not subject to all the restrictions

01:15:34 ◼   ► that these court cases seem to want to put Apple under,

01:15:37 ◼   ► saying, hey, Apple shouldn't be allowed to do this.

01:15:39 ◼   ► I don't think Apple is a monopoly,

01:15:40 ◼   ► but there is a duopoly for sure,

01:15:43 ◼   ► which is Google and Apple, right?

01:15:45 ◼   ► And so if you don't like Apple, oh, why don't you try Google?

01:15:47 ◼   ► Google's not that much different.

01:15:49 ◼   ► They are different in some important ways, but not that much.

01:15:52 ◼   ► Both of them have a fairly strong grip on their App Store,

01:15:56 ◼   ► and it really makes it so that,

01:15:59 ◼   ► this is what, Marko, you were getting at,

01:16:02 ◼   ► the entirety of the mobile landscape.

01:16:04 ◼   ► I don't think Apple is the entirety of the mobile landscape,

01:16:06 ◼   ► but Apple and Google, to a first approximation,

01:16:09 ◼   ► are very close to the entirety of the mobile landscape

01:16:11 ◼   ► in the United States, right?

01:16:13 ◼   ► And that is a problem.

01:16:15 ◼   ► It's not as big a problem

01:16:16 ◼   ► of when Microsoft had 90-something percent market share,

01:16:19 ◼   ► but it's not great when Apple and Google

01:16:21 ◼   ► have combined again in the US 90-something percent

01:16:24 ◼   ► market share, because it means that if you don't like

01:16:26 ◼   ► something about the App Store, it's like, well, fine,

01:16:29 ◼   ► just go someplace else.

01:16:30 ◼   ► Where else am I gonna go?

01:16:31 ◼   ► Should I make my own mobile phone platform

01:16:33 ◼   ► and try to compete with Apple and Google?

01:16:35 ◼   ► Or is it not possible to participate in the ecosystem

01:16:38 ◼   ► of the most important computing device

01:16:40 ◼   ► that everyone on the planet uses, right?

01:16:42 ◼   ► So I think this is a perfect,

01:16:45 ◼   ► the right way into this is not to say

01:16:47 ◼   ► Epic demands that Apple does what it wants,

01:16:49 ◼   ► because Apple is, it's illegal for Apple to do this

01:16:52 ◼   ► because they're a monopoly.

01:16:53 ◼   ► I don't think they are, and I think Apple's gonna,