ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► - So Casey, I feel like I should buy you a drink or something

00:00:03 ◼   ► because I saw on Twitter earlier today

00:00:06 ◼   ► that you are using watch connectivity

00:00:09 ◼   ► in your new secret app that you haven't told us about yet.

00:00:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, WC stands for water closet.

00:00:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's right, you know, it does.

00:00:17 ◼   ► - It should, it's that good.

00:00:19 ◼   ► So watch connectivity is the framework

00:00:21 ◼   ► with which you need to use to communicate

00:00:23 ◼   ► between a iPhone app and an Apple Watch app.

00:00:27 ◼   ► And I saw you and James Thompson going back and forth

00:00:30 ◼   ► on Twitter earlier today.

00:00:31 ◼   ► By the way, this is a good time to throw in,

00:00:34 ◼   ► I've actually found a wonderful life hack.

00:00:36 ◼   ► The latest version of Tweetbot requires a subscription

00:00:43 ◼   ► to fully unlock all of its features.

00:00:44 ◼   ► They finally moved from paid up front.

00:00:46 ◼   ► - I already know where this is going.

00:00:48 ◼   ► - They finally moved from paid up front

00:00:49 ◼   ► to like paid once to subscription, which makes total sense.

00:00:52 ◼   ► Like it's, I love Tweetbot, it's a great Twitter app

00:00:55 ◼   ► and it makes total sense that they now do have ongoing costs

00:00:58 ◼   ► even more than they did with just development,

00:01:00 ◼   ► which is its own big thing before.

00:01:02 ◼   ► So it makes total sense to have subscription pricing,

00:01:05 ◼   ► I mean for almost any app these days

00:01:06 ◼   ► that doesn't have any other kind of constant income.

00:01:08 ◼   ► But anyway, so when I installed the new version

00:01:11 ◼   ► and it became read only mode until you subscribe.

00:01:16 ◼   ► And not that I think you shouldn't subscribe,

00:01:18 ◼   ► I think you should, however,

00:01:20 ◼   ► this became an accidental feature for me.

00:01:23 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:01:24 ◼   ► - And now I have by inaction a read only Twitter client

00:01:28 ◼   ► on my phone and I still use it in read write mode,

00:01:31 ◼   ► paid all the way on my desktop.

00:01:34 ◼   ► But on my phone I have a read only Twitter client

00:01:38 ◼   ► and it's kind of amazing.

00:01:40 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:01:41 ◼   ► - I'll think like, oh I should reply to that

00:01:42 ◼   ► and oh well, they don't have to subscribe.

00:01:44 ◼   ► And I'm like, wait a minute,

00:01:45 ◼   ► I've been loving read only Twitter.

00:01:48 ◼   ► And so I just haven't subscribed only because

00:01:51 ◼   ► I actually love being forced not to engage.

00:01:54 ◼   ► And I'm like, oh this is actually better for me

00:01:55 ◼   ► that I post less and react less to things.

00:01:59 ◼   ► - It's so funny you say that

00:02:00 ◼   ► because I love the Tweetbot guys, I love Tweetbot.

00:02:03 ◼   ► It is one of my favorite and most used apps.

00:02:07 ◼   ► And when they went subscription and when they,

00:02:11 ◼   ► I don't know if they like turned off subscribing

00:02:13 ◼   ► on the beta or something like that.

00:02:14 ◼   ► But basically when I needed to have the real live app.

00:02:16 ◼   ► - Oh, that's how I discovered it.

00:02:18 ◼   ► That's right, 'cause they had the beta

00:02:21 ◼   ► and it was like with TestFlight betas,

00:02:23 ◼   ► you can make like test purchases

00:02:26 ◼   ► but they're not actually real

00:02:27 ◼   ► and they expire in a really short time and everything.

00:02:29 ◼   ► But I've had such bad luck in the past

00:02:31 ◼   ► with TestFlight sandbox purchases

00:02:34 ◼   ► resulting in some kind of bug where like

00:02:36 ◼   ► I get random pop-up dialogues all the time on my phone

00:02:39 ◼   ► saying hey, resubscribe sandbox environment

00:02:41 ◼   ► and having to reenter your store password and everything.

00:02:43 ◼   ► Store kit's a buggy mess.

00:02:44 ◼   ► And so I'm like, all right,

00:02:45 ◼   ► I'm not gonna subscribe to this during the TestFlight

00:02:47 ◼   ► because I don't want to mess up

00:02:49 ◼   ► my sandbox purchase environment with test purchases.

00:02:52 ◼   ► And so I just never subscribed.

00:02:54 ◼   ► And that's how I discovered like,

00:02:56 ◼   ► oh, this is actually really nice.

00:02:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, so what had happened for me was

00:03:02 ◼   ► I had subscribed for free during the TestFlight

00:03:05 ◼   ► and then the TestFlight ended and I,

00:03:08 ◼   ► I don't remember if I went to the release version

00:03:10 ◼   ► or if the TestFlight, like maybe their own servers

00:03:13 ◼   ► like wouldn't bless a subscription or something.

00:03:15 ◼   ► One way or another, I wasn't subscribed then.

00:03:17 ◼   ► And at this point I had not paid them any money.

00:03:20 ◼   ► And so that's fair that I hadn't been subscribed.

00:03:23 ◼   ► But I noticed, wait a second,

00:03:25 ◼   ► I kind of miss being able to fave things

00:03:27 ◼   ► 'cause I like to use a hard to fave whatever

00:03:30 ◼   ► as like a very simple like, yep, thanks.

00:03:33 ◼   ► Or I see you or ha ha, I get it,

00:03:35 ◼   ► rather than having to reply to a tweet.

00:03:37 ◼   ► And I really missed that.

00:03:39 ◼   ► And that was it.

00:03:40 ◼   ► (both laughing)

00:03:42 ◼   ► But I did end up subscribing just like a week or two ago.

00:03:45 ◼   ► And I don't know how long the new Tweetbot has been out.

00:03:47 ◼   ► I feel like it's been at least a month,

00:03:49 ◼   ► probably closer to two months.

00:03:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, something like that.

00:03:51 ◼   ► - And I only subscribed like a week ago.

00:03:53 ◼   ► And I echo everything you said, Marco.

00:03:54 ◼   ► I'm not trying to say you shouldn't subscribe.

00:03:56 ◼   ► It's a wonderful, wonderful app.

00:03:58 ◼   ► And what got me to subscribe was that

00:04:01 ◼   ► I kept the official Twitter app on my phone,

00:04:03 ◼   ► which is hot garbage.

00:04:05 ◼   ► It is not meant for me.

00:04:07 ◼   ► Like I shouldn't say it's hot garbage.

00:04:08 ◼   ► It is not meant for me is a better way of phrasing it.

00:04:10 ◼   ► - Oh no, it's also garbage, don't worry.

00:04:13 ◼   ► You don't need to candy coat this one.

00:04:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, porque no los dos, right?

00:04:17 ◼   ► But I would use the official Twitter app

00:04:21 ◼   ► when I really, really, really wanted to reply to something.

00:04:23 ◼   ► But it was more the like hearts and things like that

00:04:28 ◼   ► that I miss, or like DMs for example,

00:04:30 ◼   ► that I really wanted Tweetbot for than it was replying.

00:04:34 ◼   ► And now that you say that, I almost wonder

00:04:37 ◼   ► if the Tweetbot folks could engage some sort of like

00:04:41 ◼   ► almost read only mode where maybe you could like

00:04:44 ◼   ► throw somebody a fav, but that was it.

00:04:46 ◼   ► You couldn't do anything else, you know?

00:04:48 ◼   ► - I kind of like that it prevents me from,

00:04:50 ◼   ► 'cause I've also had the same habit.

00:04:52 ◼   ► Like I'll throw a fav on things as kind of like

00:04:55 ◼   ► a acknowledgement or thank you.

00:04:56 ◼   ► But most people who I interact with or who follow me,

00:05:00 ◼   ► I think there's a higher than average chance

00:05:02 ◼   ► of using a third party Twitter client.

00:05:04 ◼   ► And if you use a third party Twitter client,

00:05:06 ◼   ► depending on how you have it set up,

00:05:07 ◼   ► but generally speaking, you don't usually get notified

00:05:10 ◼   ► on favs, because the third party APIs until very recently

00:05:14 ◼   ► didn't have a good way to like stream those in

00:05:16 ◼   ► and be notified all the time.

00:05:17 ◼   ► And so I have a feeling like my favs don't really mean

00:05:21 ◼   ► what I think they mean, and almost no one sees them

00:05:24 ◼   ► in practice, and so it's almost like well,

00:05:27 ◼   ► if you're gonna actually want to give somebody feedback,

00:05:30 ◼   ► you should give them real feedback,

00:05:32 ◼   ► like with a reply or something.

00:05:33 ◼   ► And so I think in practice favs are fairly useless,

00:05:38 ◼   ► and so you might as well not have the ability to leave them

00:05:41 ◼   ► because then you feel like you're leaving feedback

00:05:43 ◼   ► when in many cases the people will never see it.

00:05:45 ◼   ► - And that's completely fair, but it's so funny hearing

00:05:48 ◼   ► you describe this because I went through the exact same

00:05:50 ◼   ► adventure myself, and it was my utter disgust

00:05:54 ◼   ► with the official Twitter app that got me to pay for it.

00:05:57 ◼   ► That sounds bad.

00:05:58 ◼   ► I really, really love Tweetbot, this is not an ad,

00:06:00 ◼   ► I don't think they've ever, ever, ever paid us

00:06:02 ◼   ► to do anything on this show.

00:06:03 ◼   ► I really, really do love it, I'm not trying to imply

00:06:07 ◼   ► anything else, but I do agree that this was a feature,

00:06:10 ◼   ► not a bug in a lot of ways.

00:06:12 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:06:13 ◼   ► So yeah, I totally hear you, but to come back

00:06:16 ◼   ► to the actual point you were trying to make, yes.

00:06:18 ◼   ► I am working on something very slowly,

00:06:20 ◼   ► and I feel like I have like an analog and a half

00:06:23 ◼   ► worth of content about how slowly I've been working

00:06:26 ◼   ► on this app, and I'm actually, we don't need to poll

00:06:29 ◼   ► on this thread right now, but I'm really, really frustrated

00:06:31 ◼   ► and kind of disgusted with myself at how long

00:06:33 ◼   ► it's been taking me because it's really not

00:06:35 ◼   ► a very complicated app, and it really has been taking me

00:06:39 ◼   ► entirely too long to get it out the door.

00:06:41 ◼   ► But nevertheless, one of the things I am realizing

00:06:44 ◼   ► is that even a very, very, very simple app,

00:06:48 ◼   ► if you want to include a widget, if you want to include

00:06:52 ◼   ► a watch app, if you want to include a watch complication,

00:06:55 ◼   ► and I know this is not something novel or new,

00:06:58 ◼   ► but it is stunning the amount of stuff you have to manage

00:07:03 ◼   ► and the amount of code you have to write

00:07:05 ◼   ► in order to make all of those things happen.

00:07:08 ◼   ► And Marco, you more than probably anyone

00:07:10 ◼   ► know exactly what all this is about,

00:07:13 ◼   ► but even for an app like this, which I don't particularly

00:07:18 ◼   ► want to talk about what it is right now,

00:07:19 ◼   ► but suffice to say it's very, very, very, very simple,

00:07:22 ◼   ► the simplest app I've worked on yet.

00:07:24 ◼   ► But nonetheless, I'd like to have a widget,

00:07:27 ◼   ► I would like to have a very basic watch app,

00:07:30 ◼   ► I would like to have a watch complication,

00:07:32 ◼   ► and even using all the modern stuff, it's all Swift UI,

00:07:35 ◼   ► it's all combined where appropriate,

00:07:38 ◼   ► even using all the modern stuff, it is still

00:07:40 ◼   ► an just astronomical amount of work

00:07:43 ◼   ► to get all of these moving parts put together.

00:07:45 ◼   ► And I'm really gonna try hard not to go on a rant

00:07:48 ◼   ► because I've done this too often lately,

00:07:49 ◼   ► but it is very frustrating to go digging through

00:07:53 ◼   ► Apple's documentation, which for watch connectivity

00:07:57 ◼   ► is at least passable, which for Apple is a big compliment.

00:08:01 ◼   ► It's passable documentation, but in the case

00:08:04 ◼   ► of watch connectivity, which is what they call

00:08:06 ◼   ► sending data back and forth between the watch

00:08:08 ◼   ► and the iOS app, there are several different mechanisms

00:08:11 ◼   ► by which you can do it, which in and of itself, it's fine,

00:08:13 ◼   ► I don't have a problem with that.

00:08:14 ◼   ► And there's different trade-offs between each of these

00:08:18 ◼   ► different mechanisms, which here again, okay, that's fine,

00:08:20 ◼   ► but what they don't do a particularly great job of

00:08:23 ◼   ► is telling you, well, if you're doing this sort of thing,

00:08:27 ◼   ► this is what you wanna use.

00:08:28 ◼   ► If you're doing that sort of thing, use the other thing.

00:08:31 ◼   ► If you're doing this third thing,

00:08:33 ◼   ► you should look over there.

00:08:34 ◼   ► And they kinda like get a little vaguely in that direction,

00:08:37 ◼   ► but in the documentation that I saw,

00:08:39 ◼   ► I never really found a good clear document,

00:08:44 ◼   ► a more high level document as to when you're doing this,

00:08:48 ◼   ► choose that, and this feels like the sort of thing

00:08:51 ◼   ► that has probably been covered in a WWDC session

00:08:53 ◼   ► at some point, but--

00:08:54 ◼   ► - It hasn't.

00:08:55 ◼   ► - Okay, nevermind.

00:08:56 ◼   ► - I can tell you the answer there right now.

00:08:57 ◼   ► - Do you wanna know the answer right now?

00:08:58 ◼   ► - I would love to.

00:08:59 ◼   ► - Okay, never use application context, it's unreliable.

00:09:03 ◼   ► - Oh, that's what I was gonna use!

00:09:04 ◼   ► Sorry, well, this is good news, okay.

00:09:06 ◼   ► - You can use the message passing interface

00:09:11 ◼   ► where it's like send message with a dictionary

00:09:12 ◼   ► and you can put arbitrary info in the dictionary.

00:09:14 ◼   ► That works great.

00:09:16 ◼   ► - Now, but slow down though,

00:09:17 ◼   ► because there's two different mechanisms for this.

00:09:19 ◼   ► There's user info, which is not real time,

00:09:23 ◼   ► and then there's what they actually call messages,

00:09:26 ◼   ► which is the watch app is actively running as we speak

00:09:29 ◼   ► and you are actively sending a message back and forth

00:09:32 ◼   ► while both the watch and iPhone apps are running.

00:09:34 ◼   ► So are you talking about that?

00:09:35 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:09:36 ◼   ► - Or are you talking about this user info thing

00:09:37 ◼   ► where it's, ah, it'll get there eventually?

00:09:39 ◼   ► - No, that.

00:09:40 ◼   ► And the other method is file transfers, which never work.

00:09:42 ◼   ► So basically you can't use file transfers

00:09:44 ◼   ► because they don't work reliably.

00:09:46 ◼   ► You can't use application context, it doesn't work reliably.

00:09:49 ◼   ► The only one that works reliably

00:09:50 ◼   ► is when both apps are running,

00:09:52 ◼   ► the one where they communicate with dictionaries

00:09:54 ◼   ► back and forth, the user info dictionaries.

00:09:56 ◼   ► That being said, there's size limits

00:09:59 ◼   ► to what you can put in there.

00:10:00 ◼   ► I underscore found that I think it's something like 65,

00:10:03 ◼   ► 64K, something like that.

00:10:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, that I'm not worried about.

00:10:05 ◼   ► - In that ballpark.

00:10:06 ◼   ► And then the watch app,

00:10:09 ◼   ► when it sends a message to the phone app,

00:10:11 ◼   ► the watch app is able to wake up the phone app

00:10:13 ◼   ► with one of those messages, but not vice versa.

00:10:16 ◼   ► The phone app can't wake up the watch app.

00:10:18 ◼   ► - Yep, yep, yep.

00:10:19 ◼   ► - So this is why the entire watch connectivity framework

00:10:23 ◼   ► and its real world performance and pitfalls

00:10:27 ◼   ► and unreliability is one of the biggest reasons

00:10:30 ◼   ► why I've had so many problems developing watch apps

00:10:33 ◼   ► for Overcast over the years.

00:10:35 ◼   ► And it's one of the biggest reasons

00:10:37 ◼   ► why the current watch app,

00:10:39 ◼   ► which was recently rewritten as we discussed,

00:10:41 ◼   ► is mostly avoiding watch connectivity

00:10:45 ◼   ► and trying to communicate mostly over the internet,

00:10:48 ◼   ► over my sync servers instead.

00:10:50 ◼   ► Because anything you can do to avoid watch connectivity

00:10:53 ◼   ► will be better for your mental health.

00:10:56 ◼   ► - Sorry, so you're saying,

00:10:57 ◼   ► have you played with transfer user info?

00:10:59 ◼   ► Because there's application context,

00:11:01 ◼   ► which you've already spoken about,

00:11:02 ◼   ► then there's user info, which seems to be

00:11:04 ◼   ► to be maybe intended to be slightly closer

00:11:07 ◼   ► to real time question, oh no, I'm sorry,

00:11:09 ◼   ► no, I have that wrong.

00:11:10 ◼   ► I think application context is supposed to be closer to real

00:11:12 ◼   ► to see this is what I'm talking about,

00:11:13 ◼   ► it's so hard to tell.

00:11:14 ◼   ► - And if you read the documentation,

00:11:15 ◼   ► it says like, oh, use application context

00:11:17 ◼   ► as basically like a persistent version

00:11:20 ◼   ► of those back and forth really reliable dictionaries

00:11:23 ◼   ► so that if one of the apps isn't running,

00:11:25 ◼   ► it'll pick up the latest application context,

00:11:28 ◼   ► which by the way is only one way,

00:11:29 ◼   ► it only goes from phone to watch, not vice versa.

00:11:32 ◼   ► There's so many little exceptions and gotchas.

00:11:36 ◼   ► So yeah, try to minimize how much you rely on this framework

00:11:42 ◼   ► and the functionality of the phone app

00:11:43 ◼   ► talking to the watch app.

00:11:44 ◼   ► Because any amount of this that you do,

00:11:47 ◼   ► you're gonna regret.

00:11:48 ◼   ► - Super.

00:11:50 ◼   ► - You know, I knew this was my future,

00:11:52 ◼   ► but it's so frustrating.

00:11:53 ◼   ► So actually, if you the listener have had experience

00:11:57 ◼   ► with this and have anic data that you would like

00:12:00 ◼   ► to share with me, I would be happy to accept it via Twitter.

00:12:03 ◼   ► Please don't clog my email.

00:12:04 ◼   ► Via Twitter @CaseyLiss, don't bother Marco,

00:12:07 ◼   ► don't bother John, they didn't ask for this,

00:12:09 ◼   ► I'm asking for this.

00:12:10 ◼   ► I would love to hear your experience because yeah,

00:12:12 ◼   ► I was going to, as after having spoken to James Thompson,

00:12:16 ◼   ► friend of the show, I was going to go down

00:12:18 ◼   ► the application context route,

00:12:19 ◼   ► but if you're telling me that's unreliable and buggy,

00:12:21 ◼   ► then ugh.

00:12:22 ◼   ► And to be fair, the only thing I'm really trying

00:12:24 ◼   ► to transfer is something itty-itty-bitty,

00:12:28 ◼   ► which is basically like, how can I describe this

00:12:31 ◼   ► while still being general?

00:12:33 ◼   ► You can make one of like 15 or 20 choices within the app,

00:12:37 ◼   ► and I basically need to know which choice did you make

00:12:40 ◼   ► and what numeral is associated with that choice.

00:12:42 ◼   ► And gentlemen, I can tell you about it after the show.

00:12:44 ◼   ► But suffice it to say, it's like basically a class name

00:12:48 ◼   ► and an integer, and that's all I need to send.

00:12:50 ◼   ► So in that sense, I'm not worried about like data,

00:12:52 ◼   ► their size limits or anything like that,

00:12:53 ◼   ► but that doesn't necessarily negate your point

00:12:55 ◼   ► that it's just straight up unreliable to go back and forth.

00:12:58 ◼   ► And that's unsurprising but frustrating.

00:13:01 ◼   ► So yeah, documentation.

00:13:03 ◼   ► Some sort of higher level documentation

00:13:06 ◼   ► would be really, really nice.

00:13:07 ◼   ► Like some sort of flow chart or like table.

00:13:10 ◼   ► If you're trying to do this at such and such a speed,

00:13:13 ◼   ► use this.

00:13:14 ◼   ► If you're trying to transfer a file, get screwed,

00:13:16 ◼   ► because you're not gonna end up anywhere happy.

00:13:20 ◼   ► I don't know, it's frustrating.

00:13:22 ◼   ► I just want, all I want at WWDC,

00:13:24 ◼   ► which we'll talk about later,

00:13:25 ◼   ► all I want, please, please,

00:13:26 ◼   ► can we have better documentation?

00:13:28 ◼   ► Please, please.

00:13:30 ◼   ► And yes, in the chat room, from everything I've gathered,

00:13:33 ◼   ► Mark was exactly right, that going through the internet,

00:13:36 ◼   ► through the internet is faster than using watch connectivity

00:13:41 ◼   ► and certainly more reliable if not faster.

00:13:42 ◼   ► - Yes, maybe not.

00:13:43 ◼   ► So well, it can be faster sometimes.

00:13:45 ◼   ► The Apple Watch by default tries to transfer

00:13:48 ◼   ► as much as possible over Bluetooth instead of WiFi,

00:13:51 ◼   ► because Bluetooth is much lower power consuming.

00:13:54 ◼   ► Bluetooth though, it is lower power,

00:13:55 ◼   ► but it's also way slower.

00:13:56 ◼   ► And that's why for file transfers,

00:13:59 ◼   ► downloading a file directly from the internet,

00:14:01 ◼   ► which will usually prefer a WiFi connection,

00:14:04 ◼   ► is faster than transferring the file from the phone

00:14:08 ◼   ► to the watch over the same network.

00:14:10 ◼   ► It's a whole thing.

00:14:13 ◼   ► But the main reason thing, the big reason is the reliability.

00:14:17 ◼   ► Because if the watch tries to talk to the phone,

00:14:20 ◼   ► it's hard to really know whether that communication channel

00:14:23 ◼   ► is open and reliable and fast and not clogged with junk,

00:14:27 ◼   ► as opposed to the internet,

00:14:28 ◼   ► you can just make the connection directly

00:14:29 ◼   ► with the same APIs that you make any other connection with

00:14:31 ◼   ► from iOS and it just works.

00:14:33 ◼   ► - Neat.

00:14:34 ◼   ► - Although background transfers don't,

00:14:35 ◼   ► background downloads rather,

00:14:37 ◼   ► have significantly more restrictions on the watch

00:14:39 ◼   ► and are even less reliable.

00:14:40 ◼   ► That's a lot of fun too.

00:14:42 ◼   ► Well, to see that I'm not too worried about,

00:14:43 ◼   ► for me anyway, but for you, oh, that does not sound fine.

00:14:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's basically no way

00:14:49 ◼   ► to make an Apple Watch podcast app

00:14:52 ◼   ► that downloads episodes locally

00:14:55 ◼   ► that works well for everyone.

00:14:57 ◼   ► - Cool.

00:14:58 ◼   ► - I've tried every way to do it,

00:14:59 ◼   ► I've seen other apps that do it various different ways.

00:15:02 ◼   ► Every single app has a large number of five star reviews

00:15:06 ◼   ► saying this new method works great

00:15:07 ◼   ► and a large number of one star reviews saying

00:15:09 ◼   ► they changed it and now it doesn't work for me.

00:15:11 ◼   ► And there's all sorts of conditions and problems

00:15:15 ◼   ► and it's just a nightmare.

00:15:17 ◼   ► So try to avoid making an iOS podcast app

00:15:19 ◼   ► for many reasons like competing with me

00:15:21 ◼   ► but also try to avoid needing a watch app

00:15:25 ◼   ► with local downloads 'cause it's no fun.

00:15:27 ◼   ► (electronic beeping)

00:15:29 ◼   ► - All right, let's cheer each other up a little bit

00:15:31 ◼   ► and let's talk about the Tesla Wheel of Shame

00:15:33 ◼   ► Stencil Edition and in fact other editions as well.

00:15:36 ◼   ► So we have had listeners from around the world

00:15:40 ◼   ► tell us and send us photographic evidence

00:15:43 ◼   ► of all the different kinds of Tesla demarcations

00:15:46 ◼   ► and graffiti that they found.

00:15:47 ◼   ► John, since you've been so quiet recently,

00:15:49 ◼   ► would you like to take us on a tour?

00:15:51 ◼   ► Would you prefer me to do that?

00:15:52 ◼   ► - Actually I had some things to say

00:15:53 ◼   ► about your Twitter client stuff but you went on so long

00:15:56 ◼   ► we probably shouldn't belabor it but I'll just add this.

00:15:58 ◼   ► It's a good thing we have this podcast

00:16:00 ◼   ► because Marco would have loved to have told you

00:16:01 ◼   ► these things on Twitter but he couldn't reply.

00:16:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:16:06 ◼   ► You had to get advice from James Thompson instead.

00:16:08 ◼   ► - Yeah and someone in the chat room,

00:16:11 ◼   ► I missed this when it went by before,

00:16:13 ◼   ► had a good suggestion for your app

00:16:15 ◼   ► or a guess at what your app might be.

00:16:17 ◼   ► Tweet of you or read only Twitter clients

00:16:18 ◼   ► so people like Marco can't mess things up.

00:16:20 ◼   ► - There you go, fear gold.

00:16:22 ◼   ► - All right, those are my two Twitter things

00:16:24 ◼   ► but yeah, back to the Wheels of Shame, the important stuff.

00:16:26 ◼   ► I promise this will be the last time.

00:16:27 ◼   ► I know we've had Wheels of Shame

00:16:28 ◼   ► on like three shows in a row or whatever.

00:16:29 ◼   ► They're just funny and they come with pictures

00:16:31 ◼   ► so I find them appealing and I understand this is a podcast

00:16:34 ◼   ► and you don't get to see the pictures

00:16:36 ◼   ► except the ones that Marco makes his show art

00:16:38 ◼   ► but we will describe them for you.

00:16:40 ◼   ► So the first one is the aforementioned stencil one.

00:16:43 ◼   ► We mentioned on the last show,

00:16:45 ◼   ► it looked like a neat stencil.

00:16:46 ◼   ► This particular one we're seeing the stencils on,

00:16:48 ◼   ► it looks like someone cut a hole in a piece of cardboard

00:16:51 ◼   ► and used a can of spray paint through it

00:16:52 ◼   ► and they're very, very tiny stencils.

00:16:54 ◼   ► Just a little Tesla T on the spokes.

00:16:57 ◼   ► I guess that's a deterrent.

00:16:59 ◼   ► It doesn't look as bad as the other sloppy.

00:17:01 ◼   ► It looks like someone, like a kid,

00:17:03 ◼   ► like if you're trying to like decorate your BMX bike

00:17:05 ◼   ► or something and you like spray painted some stencils on it.

00:17:08 ◼   ► It's clear that you were trying to do something neat

00:17:10 ◼   ► but your skills aren't really up to it.

00:17:13 ◼   ► The next one is from San Francisco.

00:17:14 ◼   ► I like the style of this one.

00:17:16 ◼   ► It is haphazard red spray paint but only on half the wheel

00:17:19 ◼   ► and no one would do that on purpose.

00:17:21 ◼   ► So that's definitely a look people wouldn't want on their car.

00:17:26 ◼   ► - Something about San Francisco is haphazard?

00:17:28 ◼   ► - No. - Yeah.

00:17:29 ◼   ► Then there's one from Belvedere, California

00:17:31 ◼   ► where the people who run-- - This one is great.

00:17:32 ◼   ► - People who run this service obviously could not deal

00:17:35 ◼   ► with the idea of making the wheel ugly.

00:17:37 ◼   ► So they tried to do as neat a job as possible

00:17:39 ◼   ► and they took like, what is it,

00:17:40 ◼   ► like a 30 degree slight pie wedge out of it?

00:17:42 ◼   ► Basically one spoke.

00:17:44 ◼   ► - Well it's making the Tesla logo basically.

00:17:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's really, I actually like this one a lot.

00:17:47 ◼   ► It's very clever.

00:17:48 ◼   ► - Me too.

00:17:49 ◼   ► Yeah, but most people, the style in cars these days

00:17:52 ◼   ► is not to have asymmetrical coloring on your wheels.

00:17:55 ◼   ► But this has one spoke and the surrounding area

00:17:58 ◼   ► is making a little T in red.

00:17:59 ◼   ► And it looks pretty neatly done.

00:18:01 ◼   ► I don't know of any car maker that makes wheels like this

00:18:04 ◼   ► on purpose so I think it would still encourage you

00:18:06 ◼   ► to swap it for the real one.

00:18:09 ◼   ► But kudos to the person who just

00:18:11 ◼   ► couldn't stand to look sloppy.

00:18:12 ◼   ► - No, I love this one so much.

00:18:14 ◼   ► And this was sent in by Alistair Logee.

00:18:16 ◼   ► And it was, the caption was pizza slice

00:18:20 ◼   ► in Belvedere, California.

00:18:21 ◼   ► Which this is kind of what that looks like.

00:18:23 ◼   ► Not only does it look like a pizza slice,

00:18:25 ◼   ► but it looks like the Tesla logo.

00:18:26 ◼   ► I love this one.

00:18:27 ◼   ► I really think this one's great.

00:18:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's very clever.

00:18:29 ◼   ► - And then finally we have one from the Bay Area from 2016.

00:18:32 ◼   ► This may, does this predate the spray paint?

00:18:35 ◼   ► When was your first spray paint job, Marco?

00:18:37 ◼   ► - 2019.

00:18:38 ◼   ► - All right, so maybe they hadn't come on

00:18:40 ◼   ► this spray paint technique.

00:18:42 ◼   ► This one does have a tiny little Tesla logo.

00:18:45 ◼   ► It looks like it could even be a sticker

00:18:47 ◼   ► on like the inside rim of the wheel.

00:18:49 ◼   ► And I think that one probably wouldn't encourage people

00:18:51 ◼   ► to return it 'cause it's just too small and too subtle.

00:18:54 ◼   ► But those were the before times,

00:18:56 ◼   ► before they had the technology

00:18:58 ◼   ► of haphazardly spray painting something.

00:18:59 ◼   ► So thank you everybody from across the world

00:19:02 ◼   ► for sending us your ugly Tesla wheels.

00:19:04 ◼   ► We will treasure these photos forever.

00:19:06 ◼   ► - Something like that.

00:19:07 ◼   ► - Well, we'll laugh at them for a few minutes.

00:19:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's more accurate.

00:19:10 ◼   ► But Marco won't be sending you any hearts,

00:19:12 ◼   ► I can tell you that right now.

00:19:13 ◼   ► - Oh, that was my other comment on the Twitter client thing.

00:19:16 ◼   ► - Oh, okay, go ahead.

00:19:17 ◼   ► - Not to belabor or something that I'm sure you all know,

00:19:20 ◼   ► but if you want to not reply to tweets,

00:19:24 ◼   ► you can do that for free in any Twitter client.

00:19:27 ◼   ► You don't have to have a client

00:19:29 ◼   ► that literally stops you from doing it.

00:19:31 ◼   ► I understand that having the software help you is good,

00:19:35 ◼   ► but at the point where you're wishing for a mode

00:19:37 ◼   ► in an application that will let you fave and not reply,

00:19:39 ◼   ► that's the point when I say it's time for you

00:19:40 ◼   ► to invoke some tiny degree of self control.

00:19:43 ◼   ► - Never. - What is that?

00:19:45 ◼   ► I don't understand what those words mean.

00:19:47 ◼   ► Oh goodness, all right, so Harrison Krebs wrote us

00:19:50 ◼   ► this missive with regard to a genuinely frustrating story

00:19:54 ◼   ► about AirPods, Macs, warranty repairs.

00:19:57 ◼   ► Generally speaking, I don't like to give too much attention

00:20:00 ◼   ► to these sorts of things 'cause we are not here

00:20:01 ◼   ► to be everyone's crusaders, I'm sorry.

00:20:03 ◼   ► However, this is a good public service announcement.

00:20:06 ◼   ► So in summary, Harrison went and did a warranty repair

00:20:10 ◼   ► on bricked AirPods Macs, but when he got them back,

00:20:13 ◼   ► they didn't include his ear cushions,

00:20:15 ◼   ► which is not desirable at all.

00:20:18 ◼   ► So apparently it's Apple's policy to remove the ear cushions

00:20:21 ◼   ► and not send them back after a repair,

00:20:24 ◼   ► which Harrison didn't know,

00:20:25 ◼   ► and apparently the Apple Store employee

00:20:27 ◼   ► was supposed to tell Harrison that

00:20:29 ◼   ► and just kind of didn't.

00:20:31 ◼   ► So this is a public service announcement for everyone.

00:20:33 ◼   ► If you're sending in your AirPods Macs

00:20:35 ◼   ► for warranty repairs, hey, guess what?

00:20:37 ◼   ► You're gonna wanna take those ear cups off.

00:20:39 ◼   ► - Or at least ask the person at the store about it

00:20:41 ◼   ► because who knows if this is a universal policy or whatever,

00:20:44 ◼   ► but just FYI, it's a good thing to know

00:20:46 ◼   ► because Apple Store employees are people too.

00:20:48 ◼   ► Maybe they forgot to tell you,

00:20:50 ◼   ► maybe that person didn't even know

00:20:51 ◼   ► they weren't gonna come back.

00:20:52 ◼   ► I actually kind of understand the policy

00:20:55 ◼   ► of not sending you back your ear things.

00:20:57 ◼   ► I think they should come back with brand new ones

00:21:00 ◼   ► rather than just taking your old ones and giving them back.

00:21:03 ◼   ► But either way, since they come off so easily,

00:21:05 ◼   ► if the Apple Store employee had just said,

00:21:07 ◼   ► oh, by the way, you'll wanna take these home

00:21:09 ◼   ► because our policy is not to send them back,

00:21:12 ◼   ► that would have solved the problem.

00:21:13 ◼   ► And I assume that Harrison contacted the Apple Store again

00:21:16 ◼   ► and said, hey, WTF, and got new ear pads to replace it

00:21:21 ◼   ► because it was the store's fault.

00:21:21 ◼   ► They didn't tell them they would be gone.

00:21:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, and this is actually fairly consistent

00:21:26 ◼   ► with Apple's other repair methods.

00:21:29 ◼   ► Whenever you send anything to Apple for repair,

00:21:31 ◼   ► they don't want any accessories that go with it.

00:21:34 ◼   ► And we don't think of ear pads as accessories to headphones.

00:21:37 ◼   ► You kind of can't use it without them.

00:21:38 ◼   ► But for Apple repair parlance,

00:21:41 ◼   ► if you send a watch in for repair,

00:21:42 ◼   ► you remove the strap first or they do it for you

00:21:45 ◼   ► and they hand it back to you.

00:21:46 ◼   ► If you send in a laptop, you don't send the power cord.

00:21:48 ◼   ► It is consistent with that.

00:21:49 ◼   ► So I don't consider this outrageous thing,

00:21:52 ◼   ► how dare they not send your ear cups back.

00:21:54 ◼   ► It's simply like, oh, the store person messed up.

00:21:56 ◼   ► And that happens, human error.

00:21:58 ◼   ► And yeah, as John said, I'm sure they,

00:21:59 ◼   ► I'm sure talking to the store people,

00:22:01 ◼   ► I'm sure they resolved it.

00:22:02 ◼   ► But the policy is something that you might not expect

00:22:05 ◼   ► because you don't think of headphone ear pads

00:22:08 ◼   ► as an accessory that you just pop off whenever you want to.

00:22:12 ◼   ► But here we are.

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00:23:56 ◼   ► - All right, so I have good news and bad news for everyone,

00:24:02 ◼   ► especially the two of you.

00:24:04 ◼   ► There's going to be WWDC this year, which is great,

00:24:07 ◼   ► but not in person, which at least for Marco and me,

00:24:11 ◼   ► I think is bad news.

00:24:12 ◼   ► John, I know you're just devastated

00:24:14 ◼   ► that you don't have to travel to California this year

00:24:16 ◼   ► for the second consecutive year.

00:24:18 ◼   ► Gosh, when was the last time we all saw each other?

00:24:20 ◼   ► Was it WWDC in 2019?

00:24:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe.

00:24:23 ◼   ► - Anyway, there was no question about it.

00:24:25 ◼   ► The WWDC wasn't gonna be in person.

00:24:27 ◼   ► I think we all knew it was gonna be remote,

00:24:28 ◼   ► but it's been announced.

00:24:29 ◼   ► They announced the dates.

00:24:30 ◼   ► Interestingly, I guess it doesn't really matter

00:24:32 ◼   ► 'cause whatever, it's remote.

00:24:34 ◼   ► And by the way, it's also free like it was last year, right?

00:24:36 ◼   ► So it's all online.

00:24:37 ◼   ► Anybody can do it, right?

00:24:39 ◼   ► And they announced the dates,

00:24:40 ◼   ► but they didn't do anything else really.

00:24:42 ◼   ► I mean, maybe there's nothing else to do.

00:24:43 ◼   ► Did they have us register last year?

00:24:45 ◼   ► I don't even remember.

00:24:46 ◼   ► - No. - I don't remember.

00:24:47 ◼   ► - No, there was no user input basically.

00:24:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's just free to everybody.

00:24:51 ◼   ► Here it is.

00:24:52 ◼   ► It's here again.

00:24:53 ◼   ► The only thing we collectively had to look at

00:24:55 ◼   ► was the little invitation graphics,

00:24:57 ◼   ► which people got a little bit obsessed with as we do.

00:25:00 ◼   ► I mean, it's not an invitation.

00:25:01 ◼   ► It's just a, I don't know, a PR image.

00:25:05 ◼   ► And this year, it's a bunch of, how does Apple say it?

00:25:07 ◼   ► Did they say Memoji or Memoji?

00:25:09 ◼   ► They say Memoji, right?

00:25:10 ◼   ► - I believe it varies by presenter, right?

00:25:12 ◼   ► - Yes, and I think it was officially Memoji,

00:25:15 ◼   ► and I used to jokingly call it Memoji.

00:25:17 ◼   ► And then I think Tim at some point said Memoji,

00:25:20 ◼   ► and I felt like I could claim victory at that point.

00:25:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, anyway, it's got a bunch of those faces

00:25:26 ◼   ► looking into a laptop that's slowly opening

00:25:28 ◼   ► in the same way that Craig Federighi did in the M1 video,

00:25:31 ◼   ► like with all those memes of cracking open the M1 laptop

00:25:34 ◼   ► and having the light shine in his face.

00:25:37 ◼   ► And what people got obsessed with in this thing

00:25:39 ◼   ► is the fact that all of the people

00:25:42 ◼   ► who are opening the laptop,

00:25:43 ◼   ► but it's kind of from the same angle as the Craig thing,

00:25:45 ◼   ► they're all wearing glasses,

00:25:46 ◼   ► and everyone's like, oh, glasses,

00:25:48 ◼   ► how can they all be wearing glasses?

00:25:50 ◼   ► What are the odds of that?

00:25:50 ◼   ► Apple glasses, AR glasses, so on and so forth.

00:25:52 ◼   ► And then reflected in the glasses

00:25:54 ◼   ► are the images of various iOS-style application icons,

00:25:59 ◼   ► which doesn't make a lot of sense,

00:26:00 ◼   ► but I guess the Xcode's in there too.

00:26:01 ◼   ► Anyway, a bunch of application icons

00:26:04 ◼   ► reflected in the glasses, right?

00:26:06 ◼   ► Which handily explains why everybody has glasses,

00:26:09 ◼   ► because you can't have things reflected

00:26:10 ◼   ► in people's glasses without glasses.

00:26:11 ◼   ► You could reflect them in their gigantic eyeballs,

00:26:14 ◼   ► 'cause Memoji have giant eyes,

00:26:16 ◼   ► because they're very cartoony.

00:26:18 ◼   ► I feel like what no one was talking about,

00:26:21 ◼   ► except for maybe one person I saw on Twitter

00:26:23 ◼   ► had some part of this,

00:26:24 ◼   ► the glasses don't have any,

00:26:27 ◼   ► oh, what are they called?

00:26:27 ◼   ► Temples, right?

00:26:29 ◼   ► Temples. - The sticks?

00:26:30 ◼   ► - The sticks. - Oh, no sticks.

00:26:31 ◼   ► That's true. - At least some of the glasses

00:26:33 ◼   ► do not have temples.

00:26:34 ◼   ► They virtually float,

00:26:35 ◼   ► not touching any part of the person's face,

00:26:37 ◼   ► because it's a stylized representation,

00:26:40 ◼   ► and it's not literal.

00:26:41 ◼   ► So anyway, that's all we've got to go on.

00:26:43 ◼   ► I don't think this says anything one way or the other

00:26:46 ◼   ► about Apple Glasses.

00:26:46 ◼   ► We all know they're working on AR stuff.

00:26:48 ◼   ► Is this the year they announce it?

00:26:50 ◼   ► If it is, I don't think this image has anything to do with it

00:26:52 ◼   ► because all of the rumors,

00:26:53 ◼   ► especially since all of the rumors about AR stuff

00:26:55 ◼   ► have not been about the imminent release

00:26:58 ◼   ► of things that look like glasses people would wear.

00:27:00 ◼   ► They've been more like the semi-imminent

00:27:03 ◼   ► in the next year or two release of a giant VR headset

00:27:05 ◼   ► that looks like an Oculus,

00:27:07 ◼   ► but weighs a lot less, or whatever.

00:27:08 ◼   ► Anyway, so I read nothing into this

00:27:10 ◼   ► other than the fact that you need glasses

00:27:11 ◼   ► to have reflections, and that's about it.

00:27:15 ◼   ► - Every time there's an Apple event,

00:27:17 ◼   ► people always try to read into the art,

00:27:19 ◼   ► and usually if there's some kind of obvious pun

00:27:24 ◼   ► with the name of a special event,

00:27:27 ◼   ► that usually is relevant to the products,

00:27:29 ◼   ► but the artwork chosen is almost never relevant.

00:27:33 ◼   ► And for something like WVDC, where--

00:27:34 ◼   ► - No, it's relevant in an obvious way.

00:27:38 ◼   ► It's not relevant in a sneaky way.

00:27:40 ◼   ► When the art is relevant, it's relevant in,

00:27:42 ◼   ► one of them was the little rotating silver Apple

00:27:45 ◼   ► that had a Mac OS behind it or something,

00:27:48 ◼   ► and it was because they were gonna talk about Mac OS.

00:27:51 ◼   ► Like whatever the most obvious,

00:27:52 ◼   ► and this one, the most obvious interpretation is,

00:27:55 ◼   ► hey, they're playing on the Craig peeking into the laptop

00:27:58 ◼   ► from the M1 meme, right?

00:27:59 ◼   ► - I would assume so, yeah.

00:28:00 ◼   ► - And that's true, that's absolutely true.

00:28:02 ◼   ► That's what they're doing, right?

00:28:04 ◼   ► But you don't need to go hunting then,

00:28:06 ◼   ► okay, well that seems too obvious,

00:28:07 ◼   ► what else could it be, right?

00:28:09 ◼   ► So, I don't know.

00:28:12 ◼   ► And that's not to say they're not gonna do the AR thing,

00:28:14 ◼   ► because that AR like goggle thing,

00:28:16 ◼   ► seems like it's actually getting close to being a product.

00:28:19 ◼   ► If they decide to release it at all,

00:28:20 ◼   ► it seems like the tech might be ready

00:28:22 ◼   ► not to release the product,

00:28:23 ◼   ► but to, at your developer conference,

00:28:25 ◼   ► tell everybody, hey, in eight months,

00:28:27 ◼   ► we're gonna potentially release this thing,

00:28:29 ◼   ► so start developing now, here are all the new APIs.

00:28:32 ◼   ► Like that could happen, but if that happens,

00:28:34 ◼   ► this advertising campaign has probably nothing to do with it

00:28:38 ◼   ► and if it has anything to do with it,

00:28:39 ◼   ► it is the most tangential sly nod.

00:28:43 ◼   ► There's even the possibility that if the AR thing

00:28:45 ◼   ► is not coming out until three years from now,

00:28:46 ◼   ► they would still put glasses on everybody,

00:28:48 ◼   ► because they've been working on this glasses stuff

00:28:50 ◼   ► internally for ages, so it's kind of cheeky to say,

00:28:53 ◼   ► I know that you know that we've been working on glasses,

00:28:55 ◼   ► so here, everyone has glasses.

00:28:56 ◼   ► But anyway, here are our announcements for this year.

00:28:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, and the only thing that they've kind of announced,

00:29:03 ◼   ► at least obliquely, is they said,

00:29:05 ◼   ► this year's conference will include announcements

00:29:07 ◼   ► from the keynote and State of the Union stages,

00:29:08 ◼   ► online sessions, one-to-one labs

00:29:10 ◼   ► offering technical guidance, and new ways for developers

00:29:12 ◼   ► to interact with Apple engineers and designers

00:29:14 ◼   ► to learn about the latest frameworks and technologies.

00:29:17 ◼   ► That is all we know, it could be something

00:29:19 ◼   ► totally silly and lame, but maybe it isn't,

00:29:22 ◼   ► and I'm curious to see what that means.

00:29:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, I forgot about that, that was the,

00:29:26 ◼   ► I think it was what I was getting at with the announcement

00:29:28 ◼   ► is no one was forcing them to announce this now,

00:29:31 ◼   ► since no one's gonna be traveling,

00:29:32 ◼   ► it's not like you need to make plans

00:29:33 ◼   ► and you don't need to register

00:29:34 ◼   ► and you don't need to do anything else.

00:29:36 ◼   ► But then why have an announcement

00:29:38 ◼   ► without concrete information about certain things?

00:29:40 ◼   ► Like they still wanna have a tease aspect of it,

00:29:43 ◼   ► so it's like we've come up with a new way

00:29:44 ◼   ► for you to do stuff with us somehow,

00:29:48 ◼   ► but we're not gonna tell you yet.

00:29:49 ◼   ► Maybe they haven't figured it out yet,

00:29:50 ◼   ► but plenty of time to figure it out.

00:29:52 ◼   ► But I think it is important,

00:29:55 ◼   ► if Apple continues to do these this way,

00:29:57 ◼   ► to try to recapture some of the things

00:29:59 ◼   ► that are good about being there in person.

00:30:02 ◼   ► Maybe they'll have a clubhouse.

00:30:04 ◼   ► - Oh my. - Or everyone will just join.

00:30:06 ◼   ► As if we'll still care about clubhouse by June.

00:30:08 ◼   ► - Didn't they do last, wasn't last WSC, didn't they do WebEx?

00:30:12 ◼   ► - I thought so for labs, yeah.

00:30:14 ◼   ► - And that is so reflective of Apple's non-hipness

00:30:19 ◼   ► when it comes to internet stuff that they would use.

00:30:24 ◼   ► Is it the bottom of the barrel

00:30:25 ◼   ► corporate teleconferencing software?

00:30:28 ◼   ► Probably close, I think I've used them all.

00:30:30 ◼   ► Maybe Link, L-Y-N-C is the bottom of the barrel.

00:30:33 ◼   ► I don't know if that's still made, that Microsoft product.

00:30:35 ◼   ► - Isn't that just sucked into Skype now or no?

00:30:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know.

00:30:38 ◼   ► But anyway, WebEx is not--

00:30:39 ◼   ► - It certainly is sucked.

00:30:41 ◼   ► - WebEx is not cool. (laughing)

00:30:42 ◼   ► WebEx isn't cool, WebEx isn't hip.

00:30:44 ◼   ► WebEx is a bad app.

00:30:46 ◼   ► WebEx destroys your laptop's battery.

00:30:48 ◼   ► Presumably the only reason Apple's using it

00:30:51 ◼   ► is because Apple has no replacement themselves

00:30:54 ◼   ► 'cause they have, remember when it was like iChat

00:30:57 ◼   ► where you do iChat with multiple people

00:30:58 ◼   ► and share a document, they don't have that anymore.

00:31:00 ◼   ► And because presumably it's what they use internally

00:31:04 ◼   ► for Apple corporate stuff, but boy, what a shame.

00:31:07 ◼   ► That is a terrible application and it's in general

00:31:09 ◼   ► a terrible experience to do labs through WebEx.

00:31:13 ◼   ► If Apple had its own cool application

00:31:17 ◼   ► that does the type of thing that WebEx does

00:31:20 ◼   ► and Skype does and Slack does and Teams does

00:31:24 ◼   ► and I don't know, name every other app

00:31:26 ◼   ► that lets you do multi-person teleconferences.

00:31:28 ◼   ► I'm sure they would use it instead, but they don't.

00:31:31 ◼   ► So it's WebEx.

00:31:32 ◼   ► So that makes me wonder what like,

00:31:34 ◼   ► oh, we have a cool new way for you

00:31:35 ◼   ► to interact with engineers.

00:31:37 ◼   ► Is it still WebEx?

00:31:38 ◼   ► Now we're using Microsoft Teams.

00:31:41 ◼   ► That's a cool new way.

00:31:42 ◼   ► Anyway, I look forward to see what it is.

00:31:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, and before everyone writes us,

00:31:45 ◼   ► yes, we are aware that FaceTime video exists,

00:31:48 ◼   ► but to the best of my knowledge,

00:31:49 ◼   ► you can't do like screen sharing

00:31:50 ◼   ► or anything like that on FaceTime.

00:31:52 ◼   ► So that doesn't really work for this particular context.

00:31:55 ◼   ► - Count yourself lucky if you don't know

00:31:57 ◼   ► what problem these apps are solving

00:31:59 ◼   ► because they solve a problem

00:32:00 ◼   ► that most individual people don't have,

00:32:02 ◼   ► but if you work for a business

00:32:03 ◼   ► and have been working from home,

00:32:05 ◼   ► especially in a company that normally doesn't work from home,

00:32:06 ◼   ► you know the problem they solve,

00:32:08 ◼   ► which is essentially how do I have meetings

00:32:10 ◼   ► when not in person?

00:32:12 ◼   ► And meetings don't just involve people talking to each other

00:32:16 ◼   ► and seeing each other.

00:32:17 ◼   ► Meetings always involve presenting things

00:32:19 ◼   ► and sharing documents and all that good stuff.

00:32:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm excited to see what's announced.

00:32:26 ◼   ► I'm excited to see what a second cut

00:32:29 ◼   ► at an online conference is.

00:32:31 ◼   ► I'm really sad, okay, so COVID notwithstanding,

00:32:34 ◼   ► there's no fricking chance if it was in person

00:32:36 ◼   ► that I would be going this year,

00:32:37 ◼   ► but leaving that aside, I'm sad not to be seeing you guys.

00:32:41 ◼   ► I'm sad not to be seeing other friends that typically went.

00:32:44 ◼   ► I'm sad not to be doing a live show.

00:32:45 ◼   ► I know that John, really, COVID-19 is John's fault

00:32:49 ◼   ► because this is the length that John is willing to go to

00:32:51 ◼   ► to avoid doing a live WWDC.

00:32:53 ◼   ► It was all down to him.

00:32:54 ◼   ► It wasn't anything from overseas.

00:32:57 ◼   ► It wasn't a bat.

00:32:58 ◼   ► It wasn't a lab.

00:32:58 ◼   ► It was John, Syracuse.

00:33:00 ◼   ► It was his fault.

00:33:01 ◼   ► I can't blame him.

00:33:02 ◼   ► All because he doesn't like ATP live shows.

00:33:05 ◼   ► But nevertheless, I am sad to be missing out on that.

00:33:07 ◼   ► I really hope that next year, if it's safe,

00:33:12 ◼   ► that they bring everyone back in.

00:33:15 ◼   ► I am super skeptical.

00:33:17 ◼   ► I think, honestly, if they were to do

00:33:20 ◼   ► an in-person anything for WWDC,

00:33:22 ◼   ► I think they would bring press in for the keynote,

00:33:26 ◼   ► and then maybe that would be it.

00:33:28 ◼   ► I would love for them to do an old-school style WWDC,

00:33:31 ◼   ► and certainly, I just noticed as we were talking

00:33:33 ◼   ► that at the tail end of their announcement,

00:33:35 ◼   ► they said, "To support the local economy,

00:33:37 ◼   ► "even while WWDC '21 is hosted online,

00:33:40 ◼   ► "and as part of its $100 million racial equity

00:33:42 ◼   ► "and justice initiative, Apple's also committing

00:33:44 ◼   ► "one million dollars to SJ Aspires,

00:33:46 ◼   ► "an education equity initiative

00:33:47 ◼   ► "launched by the city of San Jose."

00:33:49 ◼   ► So they're still pouring some amount of money

00:33:52 ◼   ► into San Jose, which implies to me

00:33:55 ◼   ► that they hope one day it'll come back,

00:33:57 ◼   ► but I don't know, we'll see.

00:33:59 ◼   ► - Marco, 2022, what do you think is gonna happen?

00:34:02 ◼   ► You think it'll be in person, somewhat in person,

00:34:04 ◼   ► not all in person, what's your guess?

00:34:06 ◼   ► - That's a good question.

00:34:07 ◼   ► This year, yeah, I had no doubt

00:34:10 ◼   ► this year would be remote as well,

00:34:11 ◼   ► because even though the US is doing a pretty impressive job

00:34:15 ◼   ► at the speed of our vaccinations being deployed out,

00:34:19 ◼   ► it is, after all, a worldwide conference,

00:34:21 ◼   ► not a US-only conference.

00:34:22 ◼   ► Many people come from other countries,

00:34:24 ◼   ► and the rate of vaccinations worldwide

00:34:28 ◼   ► is not as fast as it's happening in the US, unfortunately,

00:34:31 ◼   ► for lots of reasons.

00:34:32 ◼   ► - Or there are other countries that don't have

00:34:34 ◼   ► the problem that we have at all,

00:34:35 ◼   ► and wouldn't wanna come to the US,

00:34:36 ◼   ► because they have zero cases.

00:34:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, very true.

00:34:39 ◼   ► So anyway, it makes total sense this year.

00:34:41 ◼   ► I have a feeling that next year,

00:34:44 ◼   ► live events like this will be happening on a regular basis,

00:34:47 ◼   ► and it won't, there's some question,

00:34:50 ◼   ► when we will get "back to normal" in most ways,

00:34:55 ◼   ► and I think we're gonna see a lot of that

00:34:56 ◼   ► this summer and fall,

00:34:58 ◼   ► but I think by next summer,

00:35:00 ◼   ► it's gonna be, we're gonna be pretty back to normal.

00:35:02 ◼   ► I don't think that's an unreasonable bet

00:35:04 ◼   ► to make at this point.

00:35:06 ◼   ► - An interesting thing about what they've done

00:35:07 ◼   ► with the live thing last year is that they,

00:35:10 ◼   ► in the lead up to that, and all of the,

00:35:11 ◼   ► you know, the quote-unquote normal years before COVID,

00:35:14 ◼   ► they slowly essentially made the free, real-time,

00:35:18 ◼   ► online-for-everybody version of WWDC

00:35:21 ◼   ► by simply broadcasting the sessions as they air,

00:35:24 ◼   ► live to everybody for free, without needing to register.

00:35:26 ◼   ► Right? That, you know, obviously, when they,

00:35:29 ◼   ► you know, last year, they recorded them ahead of time,

00:35:32 ◼   ► and there's a very different vibe

00:35:33 ◼   ► from a recorded ahead-of-time produced video

00:35:35 ◼   ► than a live one, but practically speaking,

00:35:37 ◼   ► if you just want the information,

00:35:39 ◼   ► and you don't wanna pay anything,

00:35:40 ◼   ► and you don't wanna travel, Apple was already there.

00:35:43 ◼   ► So if they go back to in-person, which again,

00:35:45 ◼   ► you know, I buy the deal that giving money to San Jose,

00:35:48 ◼   ► like, what, is Apple just gonna perpetually give money

00:35:51 ◼   ► to San Jose every year just out of, you know, good memories?

00:35:53 ◼   ► It seems like they still want to have a relationship

00:35:55 ◼   ► with the city, which probably means

00:35:57 ◼   ► they're gonna go back to in-person,

00:35:58 ◼   ► and they'll go back to, you know, it's like,

00:36:01 ◼   ► well, why not keep the online thing for everybody?

00:36:03 ◼   ► Well, they were already doing that, essentially.

00:36:04 ◼   ► The only difference is there's no way for online people

00:36:07 ◼   ► to get on a Webex with an Apple engineer,

00:36:11 ◼   ► and in that respect, like, whatever the capacity is

00:36:15 ◼   ► for Apple to, for Apple engineers to interact with people,

00:36:19 ◼   ► if that capacity is saturated by the in-person people

00:36:23 ◼   ► who pay money and go to San Jose,

00:36:26 ◼   ► maybe there's none left for Webex meetings.

00:36:29 ◼   ► Like, I wouldn't say that you should take time away

00:36:32 ◼   ► from the people who paid to be there,

00:36:33 ◼   ► because they pay all that money and traveled,

00:36:35 ◼   ► and so they should get something for that,

00:36:37 ◼   ► but it does seem more equitable to essentially

00:36:41 ◼   ► a raffle-off lottery worldwide for anybody

00:36:44 ◼   ► who attends for free, like they were doing,

00:36:47 ◼   ► like they did last year,

00:36:48 ◼   ► 'cause it wasn't some kind of, like, slots are open,

00:36:50 ◼   ► and it's just a lottery, and you just,

00:36:51 ◼   ► if you want help, you file in.

00:36:52 ◼   ► There was no preferential system, right?

00:36:55 ◼   ► - For admission? - For labs?

00:36:57 ◼   ► - For labs, yeah. - Oh, for labs.

00:36:58 ◼   ► - I don't know, I didn't do any.

00:37:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, I, no, did I do, I don't think I did any last year.

00:37:03 ◼   ► I'm not sure, to be honest with you.

00:37:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, but anyway, like, that's the tension

00:37:07 ◼   ► that Apple has here.

00:37:08 ◼   ► There's a limited capacity,

00:37:09 ◼   ► there's only so many Apple engineers, right,

00:37:11 ◼   ► and so there's a limited capacity of help they can give.

00:37:13 ◼   ► Who should they give that help to?

00:37:14 ◼   ► Should it be a random distribution of all developers

00:37:17 ◼   ► with no barriers to entry

00:37:18 ◼   ► other than having an internet connection

00:37:19 ◼   ► like it was last year, or should it be for the people

00:37:22 ◼   ► who could afford to pay the high entrance fee

00:37:24 ◼   ► and travel to WWDC to get that help, right?

00:37:29 ◼   ► I don't know, it's not a clear-cut answer there.

00:37:30 ◼   ► Like, maybe you could say the people who are there in person,

00:37:33 ◼   ► you know, some portion of the help

00:37:35 ◼   ► will go to the people who are there in person,

00:37:37 ◼   ► and when you do get one in person,

00:37:38 ◼   ► you get the benefit of, you know,

00:37:40 ◼   ► person-to-person interaction

00:37:41 ◼   ► instead of doing it through Webex,

00:37:43 ◼   ► but some portion should be given

00:37:44 ◼   ► to people who couldn't attend,

00:37:45 ◼   ► because otherwise it's not a particularly

00:37:47 ◼   ► equitable distribution of Apple's limited amount of help.

00:37:51 ◼   ► - You know, I thought I'd heard rumblings last year,

00:37:53 ◼   ► the first virtual year,

00:37:54 ◼   ► that they actually had way more labs,

00:37:57 ◼   ► bandwidth, poor choice of words,

00:37:59 ◼   ► way more labs availability than they did takers

00:38:02 ◼   ► on people who wanted to go to the labs.

00:38:03 ◼   ► - I saw that, I remember, at the end of last year,

00:38:05 ◼   ► they're like, "Hey, we've got labs open

00:38:07 ◼   ► "if anybody wants them."

00:38:08 ◼   ► I mean, maybe it's like that in person, too,

00:38:09 ◼   ► towards the tail end of the week.

00:38:10 ◼   ► I don't partake of the labs,

00:38:12 ◼   ► so I don't know what the experience is like,

00:38:14 ◼   ► but if there is excess capacity,

00:38:16 ◼   ► that argues even more strongly for, like,

00:38:18 ◼   ► give all the excess capacity to people online, right?

00:38:21 ◼   ► So have people there in person,

00:38:23 ◼   ► and if there's no person takers, certainly, you know,

00:38:25 ◼   ► it's like, everything is like COVID vaccines.

00:38:27 ◼   ► If you've got leftover vaccines,

00:38:28 ◼   ► just give them to whoever wants them, right?

00:38:31 ◼   ► Hal, just call Casey up so we can yell at you

00:38:33 ◼   ► about documentation for an hour.

00:38:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, that sounds perfect.

00:38:36 ◼   ► Sign me up.

00:38:36 ◼   ► I will yell at anyone at Apple about documentation.

00:38:39 ◼   ► - You're yelling at the wrong people.

00:38:40 ◼   ► Don't yell at the developers.

00:38:41 ◼   ► - That's true.

00:38:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, sometimes you yell at the developers,

00:38:44 ◼   ► not for documentation,

00:38:45 ◼   ► but there is a lot of value in going to the labs

00:38:49 ◼   ► and finding the one engineer who's there

00:38:51 ◼   ► for your kind of obscure API,

00:38:53 ◼   ► and if you have some kind of question or request,

00:38:56 ◼   ► you can actually just tell them,

00:38:57 ◼   ► and it actually can get you somewhere.

00:38:59 ◼   ► - I would actually love to do that.

00:39:01 ◼   ► I would love to find the,

00:39:02 ◼   ► this is the problem.

00:39:04 ◼   ► This is the problem in my real company, in my real job,

00:39:07 ◼   ► and I imagine in many jobs,

00:39:09 ◼   ► and also in the case of the one thing

00:39:11 ◼   ► that I would wanna talk to Apple engineers about,

00:39:14 ◼   ► ownership, who owns this part of the thingy?

00:39:17 ◼   ► Who owns this API?

00:39:18 ◼   ► Who owns this framework?

00:39:19 ◼   ► Who owns this application?

00:39:20 ◼   ► And very often, the depressing answer

00:39:22 ◼   ► in large corporations is, I don't know.

00:39:24 ◼   ► - Oh, no, that's not true at Apple, though.

00:39:25 ◼   ► - That's a bad situation.

00:39:27 ◼   ► - That's not true at Apple.

00:39:29 ◼   ► - Apple has different failure modes, like nobody right now.

00:39:32 ◼   ► - That's what I'm saying.

00:39:34 ◼   ► That's what I mean by I don't know,

00:39:36 ◼   ► not like, oh, just this person doesn't have the knowledge,

00:39:38 ◼   ► that the company collectively does not know,

00:39:41 ◼   ► because if the application or framework is not broken,

00:39:46 ◼   ► and it's an older thing,

00:39:47 ◼   ► and it's in between the purview of two possible groups,

00:39:50 ◼   ► you would think, of course they have to know.

00:39:52 ◼   ► What about when someone files a bug?

00:39:54 ◼   ► Whose queue does that go into?

00:39:55 ◼   ► Obviously, every company knows who owns everything.

00:39:57 ◼   ► I can tell you from experience, that is not true.

00:40:00 ◼   ► What happens is, there may be a queue for those things,

00:40:03 ◼   ► but then different parts of the organization fight over

00:40:05 ◼   ► who really owns it,

00:40:06 ◼   ► because nobody wants that crap in their queue for real,

00:40:08 ◼   ► so it just ends up being a shoving contest of like,

00:40:11 ◼   ► I'm not taking this book.

00:40:12 ◼   ► I'm not taking this, it's not my thing.

00:40:13 ◼   ► Well, it's not your thing, but let's not look at this.

00:40:15 ◼   ► This is my charter of my scrum team.

00:40:17 ◼   ► I don't know, it's just, it is never ending, right?

00:40:19 ◼   ► So for parts of the OS,

00:40:21 ◼   ► like the one or two APIs that I need to work

00:40:24 ◼   ► for Switch Glass in front and center,

00:40:25 ◼   ► that apparently nobody owns and nobody cares about,

00:40:27 ◼   ► because they don't work reliably, who owns that?

00:40:30 ◼   ► That probably hasn't changed in literally a decade.

00:40:33 ◼   ► Try to find the group,

00:40:34 ◼   ► oh, it's probably Core OS, the catch-all group,

00:40:36 ◼   ► and then Core OS is like, uh-uh,

00:40:38 ◼   ► don't try to hoist that on us.

00:40:39 ◼   ► We don't do anything with that.

00:40:39 ◼   ► We haven't touched that in years, it's fine.

00:40:41 ◼   ► There's no showstopper bugs, there's no sub ones,

00:40:42 ◼   ► get that out of my face.

00:40:44 ◼   ► Anyway, I just want like two APIs to work reliably,

00:40:49 ◼   ► 'cause they're like the only two APIs

00:40:50 ◼   ► my simple little apps use, and they don't, and I'm sad.

00:40:53 ◼   ► - I'm so sorry, Jon.

00:40:55 ◼   ► So my understanding of how Apple works internally,

00:40:59 ◼   ► which granted is hearsay upon hearsay,

00:41:02 ◼   ► but for things that matter,

00:41:04 ◼   ► and I think this is maybe where the difference is

00:41:05 ◼   ► between you and me, for things that matter,

00:41:08 ◼   ► there is, and it's so funny talking to people at Apple,

00:41:11 ◼   ► because just like in governmental contracting,

00:41:13 ◼   ► everything is just acronym soup.

00:41:15 ◼   ► There's the ABC and the QRS and the TUV and the WIZ,

00:41:19 ◼   ► and half the time, if I'm talking to somebody-

00:41:20 ◼   ► - The DRI, you're looking for the DRI.

00:41:22 ◼   ► - Exactly right.

00:41:23 ◼   ► So that's exactly what I was driving toward,

00:41:24 ◼   ► is there's the DRI, the directly responsible individual.

00:41:27 ◼   ► And my understanding, again, hearsay,

00:41:30 ◼   ► is that there is one person that may be an engineer,

00:41:34 ◼   ► maybe a product or a project manager or project owner,

00:41:37 ◼   ► I forget what the term is they use internally,

00:41:39 ◼   ► but basically one person that the buck stops there.

00:41:42 ◼   ► And for anything that matters,

00:41:44 ◼   ► my understanding is there really is

00:41:45 ◼   ► a directly responsible individual

00:41:46 ◼   ► for anything that they care about.

00:41:49 ◼   ► But Jon, to your point a moment ago,

00:41:51 ◼   ► perhaps the things that you care about

00:41:53 ◼   ► are not the things that they care about,

00:41:55 ◼   ► and maybe there isn't a DRI for that sort of thing.

00:41:57 ◼   ► Or alternatively, there's a DRI,

00:41:58 ◼   ► but they really just could not care less

00:42:00 ◼   ► about your particular problem.

00:42:02 ◼   ► - That's probably what it is.

00:42:03 ◼   ► And speaking of that, I should just clear this out

00:42:05 ◼   ► 'cause it's been in our potential after show topics in ages,

00:42:08 ◼   ► so I'll just finish clearing this out.

00:42:09 ◼   ► So one of the APIs that I'm talking about,

00:42:12 ◼   ► maybe I'll leave some more on field,

00:42:13 ◼   ► but one of them is the API for NS running applications,

00:42:18 ◼   ► which is a very old API that probably is from the next days

00:42:20 ◼   ► that in theory tells you information

00:42:22 ◼   ► about all the applications that are running.

00:42:23 ◼   ► And you can imagine I would need that information

00:42:25 ◼   ► for Switch Glass and potentially also for front and center.

00:42:28 ◼   ► And this application was described by a very well-known

00:42:32 ◼   ► and experienced Apple Mac platform developer

00:42:35 ◼   ► as the worst API on the Mac.

00:42:37 ◼   ► And I was told this before I began my work,

00:42:39 ◼   ► and after I started working on his apps,

00:42:41 ◼   ► I think that person may be right.

00:42:42 ◼   ► And this is the person who has been working on the Mac

00:42:44 ◼   ► for literal decades.

00:42:45 ◼   ► So when they say the worst API on the Mac,

00:42:47 ◼   ► they're not just like a new developer who tried something.

00:42:49 ◼   ► I don't wanna name names because this person didn't tell me.

00:42:51 ◼   ► But anyway, this is a very experienced Mac developer

00:42:54 ◼   ► calling this the worst API on the Mac.

00:42:56 ◼   ► And I will put in the show notes the radar numbers,

00:42:59 ◼   ► the one, two, three, four, five, six radar numbers

00:43:02 ◼   ► I got thrown at me from this person

00:43:03 ◼   ► when this person was telling me about the API.

00:43:05 ◼   ► They said, this is the worst API I've been filing.

00:43:07 ◼   ► These are radars, not feedbacks,

00:43:09 ◼   ► 'cause it was before the feedback error.

00:43:11 ◼   ► These bugs have been there for who knows how many years.

00:43:13 ◼   ► They're never getting fixed.

00:43:15 ◼   ► And all the bugs that I was finding with it,

00:43:17 ◼   ► I doubt they were gonna fix too.

00:43:18 ◼   ► So if you are inside Apple and you think you know

00:43:21 ◼   ► who owns NS running application,

00:43:23 ◼   ► an API that no one cares about,

00:43:24 ◼   ► and that it works well enough

00:43:25 ◼   ► that no one needs to care about,

00:43:27 ◼   ► here's six radar numbers, none of which are for me.

00:43:29 ◼   ► Six radar numbers that you can look at

00:43:31 ◼   ► and then you can decide once again

00:43:33 ◼   ► that they're not important enough to fix.

00:43:35 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:43:36 ◼   ► - I'm so sorry, Jon, I really honestly am.

00:43:39 ◼   ► I really, really honestly am.

00:43:40 ◼   ► I don't know what's worse actually,

00:43:42 ◼   ► and I go back and forth.

00:43:45 ◼   ► Is it worse to have something that a lot of people rely on,

00:43:50 ◼   ► like, hmm, watch connectivity,

00:43:52 ◼   ► that they just really don't care to fix?

00:43:54 ◼   ► Or is it worse to have something

00:43:57 ◼   ► that nobody else cares about,

00:43:59 ◼   ► so you care that much more,

00:44:02 ◼   ► but they still don't care to fix?

00:44:04 ◼   ► - And actually, let me throw in my thing here too,

00:44:07 ◼   ► because I think that is an interesting example

00:44:09 ◼   ► of what you just described.

00:44:10 ◼   ► The one API that I want to work,

00:44:12 ◼   ► well, there's a bunch of APIs that do this,

00:44:14 ◼   ► but the thing I want to accomplish on the Mac

00:44:16 ◼   ► that is currently impossible to accomplish

00:44:18 ◼   ► in a reliable way is to tell an application

00:44:21 ◼   ► to bring all of its windows forward.

00:44:23 ◼   ► It seems like an important feature

00:44:25 ◼   ► of the two applications that I make,

00:44:26 ◼   ► and there are multiple APIs to do that.

00:44:29 ◼   ► I haven't tried the accessibility APIs,

00:44:31 ◼   ► because you have to ask for accessibility permission

00:44:33 ◼   ► to do that, and maybe I could do it manually that way,

00:44:36 ◼   ► but this is another thing about sandboxing

00:44:38 ◼   ► in the Mac App Store.

00:44:39 ◼   ► I haven't been willing to go over the hurdle

00:44:41 ◼   ► to say I'm going to request accessibility access,

00:44:44 ◼   ► 'cause it's like, you want to let this app

00:44:46 ◼   ► read all your keystrokes and record your screen,

00:44:48 ◼   ► and people flip out, and rightly so, right?

00:44:50 ◼   ► I don't want that access.

00:44:51 ◼   ► I just want to say one thing.

00:44:52 ◼   ► Hey, app, bring all your windows to the front.

00:44:55 ◼   ► And again, there are multiple APIs to do that,

00:44:58 ◼   ► and zero of them work reliably.

00:45:00 ◼   ► They work about 98, 99% of the time,

00:45:03 ◼   ► but then they just stop working,

00:45:04 ◼   ► and there's no error condition,

00:45:05 ◼   ► and there's no log messages,

00:45:07 ◼   ► and the only recourse is to quit the app

00:45:09 ◼   ► or sometimes restart your computer.

00:45:11 ◼   ► And what do my dinky little apps do?

00:45:13 ◼   ► One really important thing they do

00:45:15 ◼   ► is ask applications to bring all their windows to the front,

00:45:17 ◼   ► and when that stops working, it's sad.

00:45:20 ◼   ► I even hacked in a little thing

00:45:21 ◼   ► where you can switch which API my app is using to do that.

00:45:26 ◼   ► Like, you can, like, cycle through them,

00:45:28 ◼   ► say, "Did that API work? Try this one.

00:45:29 ◼   ► Try that one. Try that one." None of them work.

00:45:31 ◼   ► When it stops working, it stops working for good.

00:45:33 ◼   ► And I feel like, even though that's a bug

00:45:34 ◼   ► that no one cares about,

00:45:36 ◼   ► if you're going to have any APIs on the Mac that say,

00:45:39 ◼   ► "Hey, app, bring all your windows to the front,"

00:45:41 ◼   ► I don't understand how that can ever stop working

00:45:44 ◼   ► or be unreliable, because I feel like the Windows server

00:45:48 ◼   ► should own the window layering policy to some degree.

00:45:50 ◼   ► It should be able to say,

00:45:52 ◼   ► "Look, app, I don't care what you're doing.

00:45:54 ◼   ► I don't need any interaction with you whatsoever.

00:45:57 ◼   ► I, the Windows server, own your windows,

00:45:58 ◼   ► and I put them on the screen,

00:45:59 ◼   ► and I composite them and everything,

00:46:01 ◼   ► so I'm simply going to bring, as the Windows server,

00:46:03 ◼   ► all your windows to the front.

00:46:05 ◼   ► You don't even need to be running.

00:46:06 ◼   ► You could be hung in an infinite loop,

00:46:08 ◼   ► 'cause this is Mac OS X and not classic Mac OS.

00:46:11 ◼   ► I don't care if you're hung, app.

00:46:12 ◼   ► I'm bringing all your windows to the front."

00:46:14 ◼   ► But no, no API does that reliably, and it makes me very sad.

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00:48:02 ◼   ► So we heard some breaking news earlier today, I believe,

00:48:10 ◼   ► that Apple has added two brand new Siri voices

00:48:13 ◼   ► that will no longer default to a female voice

00:48:15 ◼   ► in the latest version of iOS, which is now in beta.

00:48:19 ◼   ► This is, I think, from TechCrunch.

00:48:20 ◼   ► I'm not really sure what the source is here,

00:48:22 ◼   ► but Apple is adding two new voices

00:48:23 ◼   ► to Siri's English offerings and eliminating

00:48:25 ◼   ► the default "female voice" selection

00:48:27 ◼   ► in the latest beta version of iOS.

00:48:29 ◼   ► This means that every person setting up Siri

00:48:30 ◼   ► will choose a voice for themselves

00:48:31 ◼   ► and it will no longer default

00:48:32 ◼   ► to the voice assistant being female.

00:48:35 ◼   ► Seems good.

00:48:36 ◼   ► I haven't heard it yet.

00:48:37 ◼   ► I think there's a sample out there,

00:48:38 ◼   ► but I just haven't had a chance to hear it.

00:48:40 ◼   ► But sounds good to me.

00:48:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, what's nice about this is,

00:48:45 ◼   ► throughout our history as a society

00:48:49 ◼   ► of trying to give people more rights, equal treatment,

00:48:52 ◼   ► trying to clamp down on stereotypes

00:48:56 ◼   ► and misogyny and stuff like that,

00:48:59 ◼   ► the more weird old assumptions that we can break,

00:49:04 ◼   ► generally the better things are.

00:49:06 ◼   ► Culturally in America, most robot voice assistant things,

00:49:11 ◼   ► whether you're hearing it on a phone menu

00:49:13 ◼   ► or something like that, have been female.

00:49:15 ◼   ► And that assumption isn't true everywhere.

00:49:16 ◼   ► Like in the UK, they're usually male.

00:49:19 ◼   ► Like it's just different in different places.

00:49:21 ◼   ► But it's this assumption that we've had

00:49:24 ◼   ► for forever in our society.

00:49:26 ◼   ► Like oh, the assistant voice should be female.

00:49:30 ◼   ► And that's based on some pretty terrible assumptions

00:49:32 ◼   ► of general reversals and everything over time.

00:49:35 ◼   ► And so what Apple's doing here is

00:49:37 ◼   ► effectively breaking that assumption

00:49:38 ◼   ► and making you choose which style of voice

00:49:41 ◼   ► you want to hear as your Siri assistant,

00:49:44 ◼   ► not just assuming and making a default

00:49:46 ◼   ► to saying okay, in America it's always gonna be

00:49:48 ◼   ► a female voice, in the UK it's always gonna be a male voice.

00:49:50 ◼   ► Like breaking that assumption now.

00:49:52 ◼   ► And that's generally a good thing, I think.

00:49:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, and there's a, I don't know if this was Siri related

00:49:56 ◼   ► but there was a couple of links going around

00:49:58 ◼   ► a few weeks ago about like why do computer voice assistants

00:50:01 ◼   ► have to be gendered at all?

00:50:03 ◼   ► Or binary gendered at all?

00:50:05 ◼   ► Like a computer doesn't have,

00:50:06 ◼   ► like all this is just to make people feel more comfortable.

00:50:08 ◼   ► Oh, it's a little person, it's not a computer.

00:50:10 ◼   ► Well of course we know it's not actually a person

00:50:11 ◼   ► but it makes us feel comfortable and interact

00:50:13 ◼   ► with something that sounds like a person.

00:50:16 ◼   ► But there's no reason that you need to just pick

00:50:18 ◼   ► oh it's male-ish sounding, meaning a deeper voice

00:50:20 ◼   ► or a female-ish sounding.

00:50:21 ◼   ► And so there was a bunch of voice assistant's demos,

00:50:24 ◼   ► maybe it was from Microsoft, I don't know,

00:50:25 ◼   ► someone will probably find the link.

00:50:27 ◼   ► If not this week then by next week.

00:50:29 ◼   ► Showing essentially non-binary gendered voices.

00:50:33 ◼   ► And I thought they were pretty amazing.

00:50:35 ◼   ► Like why shouldn't your computer sound like that?

00:50:38 ◼   ► And the idea of giving you a choice

00:50:42 ◼   ► and making you select now,

00:50:44 ◼   ► people may just end up selecting according to the stew,

00:50:47 ◼   ► the cultural stew that they've brought up in.

00:50:49 ◼   ► And maybe most Americans will pick female

00:50:51 ◼   ► for exactly the same reason,

00:50:52 ◼   ► the default was unthinkingly female.

00:50:54 ◼   ► Or you know what I mean?

00:50:55 ◼   ► It's just like again, the culture of traditional gender roles

00:50:58 ◼   ► in your particular country.

00:50:59 ◼   ► And what Apple's trying to do is not perpetuate that

00:51:02 ◼   ► by just saying oh yeah, no, we're just gonna,

00:51:04 ◼   ► we're gonna pick the thing

00:51:05 ◼   ► that we think you're comfortable with already, right?

00:51:07 ◼   ► They're not stopping you

00:51:08 ◼   ► from picking whatever you're comfortable with.

00:51:09 ◼   ► And maybe the ratio of people picking

00:51:11 ◼   ► one or the other will be exactly the same.

00:51:13 ◼   ► And you could even get down to the point of like okay,

00:51:15 ◼   ► well what order are the options going to be in?

00:51:17 ◼   ► Because the sort of cultural hegemony

00:51:21 ◼   ► of the assistant is female

00:51:23 ◼   ► and the assistant is subservient to,

00:51:26 ◼   ► is the service worker or whatever,

00:51:28 ◼   ► is so big in this country and probably in the world

00:51:32 ◼   ► that if they put the female option first,

00:51:35 ◼   ► that will cause it to be selected even more

00:51:37 ◼   ► because that's what people expect.

00:51:38 ◼   ► So it seems to me that they should actually

00:51:40 ◼   ► have to randomize the options

00:51:42 ◼   ► to give all of us a fighting chance

00:51:44 ◼   ► to not succumb to our default programming.

00:51:47 ◼   ► This is like the version of the tyranny

00:51:48 ◼   ► of the defaults we talk about,

00:51:50 ◼   ► where like in your application,

00:51:51 ◼   ► whatever you set as the default for some preference,

00:51:54 ◼   ► almost everyone's going to go with that

00:51:56 ◼   ► because most people don't care enough about that option

00:51:58 ◼   ► or aren't even aware that it could be in an option

00:52:01 ◼   ► to dig into your preferences and find the setting for it.

00:52:04 ◼   ► In fact, they might complain

00:52:05 ◼   ► that your program doesn't do this thing that it does.

00:52:07 ◼   ► That's the tyranny of the defaults.

00:52:08 ◼   ► And tyranny of the defaults has an analog in real life,

00:52:11 ◼   ► which is just like society and culture.

00:52:13 ◼   ► And when you grow up in it,

00:52:15 ◼   ► you don't think that there,

00:52:15 ◼   ► you might not even think that there is a child.

00:52:17 ◼   ► Well, that's just the way things are.

00:52:18 ◼   ► Secretaries are women.

00:52:20 ◼   ► How do I know that?

00:52:20 ◼   ► Everybody knows that.

00:52:21 ◼   ► Haven't you seen TV and movies and the entire culture

00:52:24 ◼   ► of the entire world that I've spent my entire life in?

00:52:26 ◼   ► Of course secretaries are women and nurses are women

00:52:29 ◼   ► and doctors are men and like,

00:52:30 ◼   ► unthinkingly adhering to these stereotypes.

00:52:34 ◼   ► And so when some people see this,

00:52:36 ◼   ► changing the voice on Siri, congratulations,

00:52:39 ◼   ► I'm sure that will help women everywhere.

00:52:41 ◼   ► Every little bit, every little one of these things

00:52:43 ◼   ► is one tiny, you know, one tiny pebble taken off a pile.

00:52:48 ◼   ► It doesn't fix the world, but if you don't do this,

00:52:51 ◼   ► then everyone will just continue to assume,

00:52:53 ◼   ► oh, well, my assistant has to be female

00:52:55 ◼   ► because assistants are females

00:52:56 ◼   ► just like secretaries and nurses, right?

00:52:58 ◼   ► So I applaud this move.

00:53:00 ◼   ► I don't quite know why it took so long.

00:53:02 ◼   ► I also don't understand why the default was male

00:53:06 ◼   ► in the UK and female in the US for so long,

00:53:07 ◼   ► 'cause it seems like there was some understanding

00:53:10 ◼   ► within Apple that these cultural differences mean things,

00:53:14 ◼   ► but like why not take the next step and say,

00:53:16 ◼   ► but yeah, should it be our position at Apple

00:53:19 ◼   ► to unthinkingly perpetuate them or to serve them

00:53:22 ◼   ► or should we instead do what we can

00:53:25 ◼   ► to try to make things again more equitable

00:53:28 ◼   ► by just letting the user pick

00:53:31 ◼   ► from a randomly ordered selection of choices.

00:53:34 ◼   ► And I'll be excited if they throw in a few non-binary choices

00:53:37 ◼   ► there too, because I think they sound cool.

00:53:39 ◼   ► - Yep, agreed.

00:53:39 ◼   ► And I found a couple of examples,

00:53:41 ◼   ► mostly thanks to the chat room,

00:53:42 ◼   ► of recordings of these that you can listen to

00:53:46 ◼   ► after the fact.

00:53:47 ◼   ► All right, last week we had an Ask ATP

00:53:49 ◼   ► with regard to how we would set up networking

00:53:52 ◼   ► in a fantasy, you know, new house or something like that.

00:53:55 ◼   ► And Marco, as you want to do,

00:53:58 ◼   ► recommended something that you really like.

00:54:00 ◼   ► And you had some caveats and some gotchas about it,

00:54:02 ◼   ► but you had said in the past, up until about a year ago,

00:54:06 ◼   ► Ubiquiti, which is a manufacturer of UniFi stuff,

00:54:10 ◼   ► you have had really good experiences with them

00:54:13 ◼   ► up until semi-recently.

00:54:15 ◼   ► And then you had kind of self-backpedaled, if you will,

00:54:19 ◼   ► a little bit last week to say,

00:54:20 ◼   ► well, it used to be much better than it is now,

00:54:22 ◼   ► I'm not so sure.

00:54:23 ◼   ► Is that fair so far?

00:54:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, basically.

00:54:25 ◼   ► You know, I've been using Ubiquiti stuff

00:54:27 ◼   ► for many, many years for my home networking

00:54:30 ◼   ► and it's been rock solid for the most part for,

00:54:33 ◼   ► I mean, geez, maybe six, seven years.

00:54:35 ◼   ► I've been using it for a long time.

00:54:37 ◼   ► But the latest hardware from them,

00:54:41 ◼   ► the Ubiquiti Dream Machine Router series,

00:54:45 ◼   ► it seems like the Wi-Fi access points are all still fine,

00:54:48 ◼   ► but the Dream Machine Router and the software

00:54:50 ◼   ► that goes with it, it seems unreliable

00:54:52 ◼   ► and they keep moving the software forward

00:54:54 ◼   ► in very aggressive ways in ways that they seem

00:54:58 ◼   ► to have adopted a move fast and break things attitude,

00:55:02 ◼   ► which is not generally what you want from your router.

00:55:04 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:55:05 ◼   ► You kind of want your router to be old and boring

00:55:07 ◼   ► and just work well and not break anything for reasons.

00:55:12 ◼   ► So that culture might have come back to bite them slightly.

00:55:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, so there was a breach that happened,

00:55:20 ◼   ► I guess, late last year.

00:55:21 ◼   ► And Ubiquiti seems to have admitted to it to a degree.

00:55:26 ◼   ► I think they said some third party cloud provider

00:55:29 ◼   ► had had a breach that's associated with them.

00:55:31 ◼   ► And I believe that's pretty much all they said.

00:55:33 ◼   ► Well, there was an article that we'll put in the show notes

00:55:36 ◼   ► from Krebs on Security, wherein a whistleblower

00:55:38 ◼   ► reached out to them and they called the whistleblower Adam.

00:55:42 ◼   ► And the whistleblower said it was considerably bigger

00:55:45 ◼   ► than Ubiquiti's leading on.

00:55:46 ◼   ► So I'm gonna try to grab just a few quotes from here.

00:55:49 ◼   ► In reality, this is from the article.

00:55:51 ◼   ► In reality, Adam said the attackers had gained

00:55:52 ◼   ► administrative access to Ubiquiti servers

00:55:54 ◼   ► at Amazon's cloud service,

00:55:56 ◼   ► which secures the underlying server hardware and software

00:55:58 ◼   ► that requires the cloud tenant or client

00:56:00 ◼   ► to secure access to any data stored there.

00:56:02 ◼   ► Adam says that the attackers had gained access

00:56:04 ◼   ► to privileged credentials that were previously stored

00:56:06 ◼   ► in the LastPass account of a Ubiquiti IT employee

00:56:09 ◼   ► and gained root administrator access

00:56:11 ◼   ► to all Ubiquiti AWS accounts,

00:56:13 ◼   ► including all S3 data buckets, all application logs,

00:56:15 ◼   ► all databases, all user database credentials

00:56:18 ◼   ► and secrets required to forge single sign-on cookies.

00:56:21 ◼   ► I could go on and on actually about this.

00:56:24 ◼   ► Supposedly they were threatened.

00:56:26 ◼   ► The attackers wanted $2.8 million in order to keep quiet.

00:56:32 ◼   ► And so they actually wanted it, of course, in Bitcoin.

00:56:36 ◼   ► And I had assumed, oh, that must be like 1,000 Bitcoin.

00:56:38 ◼   ► Oh no, $2.8 million apparently at the time of writing

00:56:42 ◼   ► was 50 Bitcoin, which is just pretty fosters to me.

00:56:45 ◼   ► Oh, please don't email me, I don't care about Bitcoin.

00:56:47 ◼   ► But anyway, I just thought that was funny.

00:56:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, can we pause on that for one moment?

00:56:51 ◼   ► - Yeah. - People occasionally request

00:56:53 ◼   ► that we talk about the world of cryptocurrency.

00:56:55 ◼   ► I could not possibly care less

00:56:58 ◼   ► about the world of cryptocurrency.

00:56:59 ◼   ► I have very little knowledge of it,

00:57:01 ◼   ► but it's mainly I just have no interest.

00:57:03 ◼   ► And there seems to be, like there's a lot of people

00:57:05 ◼   ► out there who absolutely are super into it,

00:57:08 ◼   ► super involved, super interested.

00:57:11 ◼   ► I almost feel like it's a different world of tech

00:57:14 ◼   ► than the world that we live in.

00:57:15 ◼   ► And while there might be a very small amount of overlap,

00:57:19 ◼   ► I don't think it's much more than that.

00:57:21 ◼   ► And it's like people who are super into stock trading

00:57:25 ◼   ► and stuff, it's a different form of financial gambling

00:57:28 ◼   ► and instruments and everything.

00:57:29 ◼   ► And I just couldn't care less about that stuff.

00:57:32 ◼   ► I have no interest in it.

00:57:35 ◼   ► And it seems like there's so much there to know

00:57:39 ◼   ► that if you're gonna be into it,

00:57:40 ◼   ► you gotta be really into it.

00:57:41 ◼   ► Or you have to not be into all the stuff I'm into

00:57:44 ◼   ► in order to even have time to keep up with it

00:57:47 ◼   ► and to do it correctly and well and everything.

00:57:50 ◼   ► And so all of you out there,

00:57:51 ◼   ► if whatever portion of our audience is interested in that,

00:57:55 ◼   ► I'm sorry, I'm really not.

00:57:57 ◼   ► And so I'm never gonna wanna talk about it.

00:57:59 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:58:00 ◼   ► And that's just, there's a lot that we don't cover

00:58:02 ◼   ► on the show because tech is a very big world.

00:58:05 ◼   ► And for me, it's gotta be,

00:58:07 ◼   ► the whole world of cryptocurrency is part of that.

00:58:09 ◼   ► I just have no knowledge and no interest about it.

00:58:13 ◼   ► - Well, kind of like the financial instruments

00:58:15 ◼   ► that you mentioned before,

00:58:17 ◼   ► despite the fact that you have no interest in it,

00:58:19 ◼   ► unfortunately, like the stock market

00:58:21 ◼   ► and various financial instruments,

00:58:22 ◼   ► it does potentially have effect on your life,

00:58:25 ◼   ► if you remember 2008, for example.

00:58:27 ◼   ► So lots of times, things that we don't have any interest in

00:58:29 ◼   ► that just seem like there are a bunch of people

00:58:31 ◼   ► playing in a world that doesn't affect us,

00:58:33 ◼   ► when it starts to get into the financial system,

00:58:36 ◼   ► when they mess up real bad, it can affect us.

00:58:39 ◼   ► So it's one of those things where even if you don't

00:58:42 ◼   ► actually know anything about it,

00:58:43 ◼   ► it would behoove you to know enough about it

00:58:46 ◼   ► to know what side you're on and what you wanna lobby for

00:58:49 ◼   ► and who you might want to vote for in elections

00:58:51 ◼   ► and so on and so forth, respect to cryptocurrency,

00:58:54 ◼   ► just like the financial system,

00:58:55 ◼   ► which I have no interest in whatsoever,

00:58:57 ◼   ► but has in my very short lifetime

00:58:59 ◼   ► affected me in very profound ways already

00:59:01 ◼   ► and all of us, right?

00:59:02 ◼   ► So we can't just let the people over there

00:59:04 ◼   ► play with their stocks and collateralize debt obligations

00:59:08 ◼   ► and everything like, the whole reason I even know

00:59:10 ◼   ► what a collateralized debt obligation is

00:59:12 ◼   ► is because of the 2008 financial crash, right?

00:59:15 ◼   ► I didn't know about what any of those things are,

00:59:16 ◼   ► but boy, eventually we all had to know,

00:59:18 ◼   ► kind of like we all had to know about like viruses and stuff

00:59:21 ◼   ► and with the COVID thing.

00:59:23 ◼   ► So yeah, I mean, not that having some foundational

00:59:27 ◼   ► baseline knowledge of cryptocurrency

00:59:28 ◼   ► is probably going to save us,

00:59:29 ◼   ► but it's probably better to know something a little sooner

00:59:32 ◼   ► rather than to just read about it after the world

00:59:36 ◼   ► is totally destroyed by people mining for Bitcoin

00:59:40 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:59:41 ◼   ► - Well, and like the small amount of opinion I do have

00:59:44 ◼   ► about it is not positive because I am familiar

00:59:49 ◼   ► with the general idea of how it works.

00:59:51 ◼   ► I am also familiar with the immense amount of energy

00:59:54 ◼   ► consumption it's causing around the world.

00:59:56 ◼   ► - That's all free energy that no one was using, Marco.

00:59:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, so there's--

01:00:00 ◼   ► - It was going to waste.

01:00:01 ◼   ► If it wasn't for Bitcoin, that energy would just be

01:00:03 ◼   ► falling on the floor and rotting.

01:00:04 ◼   ► Do you not want people to use that energy?

01:00:06 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm, oh God.

01:00:08 ◼   ► Anyway, before we get, I mean, believe me,

01:00:10 ◼   ► you think Tesla people are bad with the email?

01:00:13 ◼   ► - No, Cryptocurrency people don't listen to the show.

01:00:14 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:00:16 ◼   ► - Anyway, no, it's--

01:00:16 ◼   ► - I'm not so sure.

01:00:17 ◼   ► - So yeah, so to me, that whole world,

01:00:20 ◼   ► it's like, I love computers for what we used to use

01:00:25 ◼   ► computers for, what used to be the only thing

01:00:27 ◼   ► we used computers for is messing around,

01:00:29 ◼   ► making documents and images and audio and video

01:00:32 ◼   ► and sending things back and forth,

01:00:34 ◼   ► communicating back and forth with each other.

01:00:36 ◼   ► And this seems like, hey, what if we used computers

01:00:39 ◼   ► to generate this entire financial world

01:00:41 ◼   ► of complex financial instruments?

01:00:42 ◼   ► And I was like, okay, you've lost me.

01:00:44 ◼   ► Now, what you're really talking about is finance.

01:00:48 ◼   ► And it doesn't have that much to do

01:00:50 ◼   ► with the computers anymore.

01:00:52 ◼   ► And that goes well beyond my interest or knowledge.

01:00:56 ◼   ► And again, the little bit I do know about it

01:01:00 ◼   ► really rubs me the wrong way, for lots of reasons.

01:01:03 ◼   ► From the attitude of a lot of the people in that world,

01:01:06 ◼   ► which it does seem like a lot of them

01:01:07 ◼   ► come from the world of finance and stuff like that,

01:01:10 ◼   ► which is not my scene at all,

01:01:12 ◼   ► as well as the environmental issues it causes.

01:01:17 ◼   ► And it seems, and just the attitude of the presumption

01:01:22 ◼   ► that this is going to take over everything

01:01:24 ◼   ► and that all of us simpletons using fiat currency

01:01:28 ◼   ► are somehow wrong or old dinosaurs.

01:01:30 ◼   ► - You know enough of the vocabulary to know the terms

01:01:35 ◼   ► that you wouldn't otherwise have any reason to know,

01:01:36 ◼   ► so it's getting to you.

01:01:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean literally everything about it

01:01:39 ◼   ► that I know rubs me the wrong way,

01:01:40 ◼   ► with the sole exception that I think

01:01:43 ◼   ► the technological concept of how it works

01:01:46 ◼   ► is interesting technologically,

01:01:48 ◼   ► but that's where the positive feelings I have about it end.

01:01:53 ◼   ► - I predict we will talk about it, yes,

01:01:56 ◼   ► even more than we are now, in a future episode

01:01:59 ◼   ► at some point related to the NFT stuff, but not this week.

01:02:03 ◼   ► - Are we still talking about those?

01:02:04 ◼   ► - And I wish, not this week, and I wish I could find,

01:02:07 ◼   ► we should end by saying, me trying to find the originator

01:02:11 ◼   ► of this amazing tweet that I still,

01:02:13 ◼   ► that's the problem with the internet,

01:02:14 ◼   ► I can't tell who originated this tweet

01:02:16 ◼   ► 'cause people could just be copying and pasting it

01:02:17 ◼   ► or whatever, but anyway, it was the explanation of Bitcoin

01:02:20 ◼   ► from 2018, potentially by the person who we'll link

01:02:23 ◼   ► in the show as it says.

01:02:24 ◼   ► You all know what Bitcoin is?

01:02:26 ◼   ► Imagine if keeping your car idling 24/7 produced

01:02:28 ◼   ► solved Sudokus you could trade for heroin.

01:02:31 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:02:31 ◼   ► I know, I've seen that before, it's pretty good.

01:02:33 ◼   ► - You have to know a lot of Bitcoin to understand

01:02:35 ◼   ► how every part of that sentence makes sense,

01:02:38 ◼   ► but it's also depressingly accurate.

01:02:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, and you know, so I haven't had a chance to weigh in,

01:02:44 ◼   ► I'll be very brief.

01:02:45 ◼   ► I agree with almost everything Marco said.

01:02:48 ◼   ► If it wasn't for the fact that this is accelerating

01:02:50 ◼   ► the heat death of the universe,

01:02:51 ◼   ► I would probably be far more interested in it.

01:02:54 ◼   ► Just a month or so ago, I went, I didn't do a deep dive,

01:02:58 ◼   ► but I started looking into, 'cause I did not understand

01:03:01 ◼   ► how it worked at all, and there was a really good video

01:03:03 ◼   ► on YouTube that's almost half an hour,

01:03:05 ◼   ► but it's excellent, and it's by 3blue1brown,

01:03:08 ◼   ► and I'd never heard of this channel before.

01:03:11 ◼   ► But link it in the show notes.

01:03:12 ◼   ► If you wanna know from a nerd's perspective,

01:03:14 ◼   ► but yet approachable from a non-nerd's perspective,

01:03:17 ◼   ► how does this actually work, I really, really recommend it,

01:03:19 ◼   ► 'cause it helped me understand,

01:03:21 ◼   ► even after having read many, many things about it,

01:03:23 ◼   ► it wasn't until I watched this video that I was like,

01:03:24 ◼   ► oh, okay, I got it.

01:03:26 ◼   ► And yeah, I agree with you, Marco.

01:03:27 ◼   ► Like, not only is the scene not for me,

01:03:29 ◼   ► and not only does everyone seem to think,

01:03:32 ◼   ► much in the same way of Tesla people,

01:03:34 ◼   ► that they are the one true people that really understand,

01:03:38 ◼   ► and all you sheeple just don't get it, blah, blah, blah.

01:03:41 ◼   ► - Exactly.

01:03:42 ◼   ► - It's just like Tesla people.

01:03:44 ◼   ► Oh, you idiots with your internal combustion engines

01:03:47 ◼   ► blowing up dinosaurs.

01:03:49 ◼   ► - Let's say, more charitably,

01:03:51 ◼   ► when people are tech enthusiasts, as we are,

01:03:53 ◼   ► it's easy to get excited about a new technology.

01:03:56 ◼   ► We are often excited about new technologies.

01:03:58 ◼   ► I certainly am, right?

01:03:59 ◼   ► It just so happens that sometimes

01:04:01 ◼   ► some of those new technologies that people get excited about

01:04:03 ◼   ► and form communities around have, let's say,

01:04:05 ◼   ► externalities that turn other people off.

01:04:09 ◼   ► Even Tesla, which is doing a good thing.

01:04:10 ◼   ► Electric cars, yay, right?

01:04:12 ◼   ► That's good, right?

01:04:13 ◼   ► And yeah, it is.

01:04:14 ◼   ► But maybe when the fans get a little bit too enthusiastic

01:04:17 ◼   ► and too excited about defending their,

01:04:20 ◼   ► the thing that they are a fan of,

01:04:21 ◼   ► that gets a little bit toxic.

01:04:23 ◼   ► But in the case of things like Bitcoin or other,

01:04:25 ◼   ► you know, where there's,

01:04:27 ◼   ► anything where there is exciting technology,

01:04:30 ◼   ► and like you said, Casey,

01:04:31 ◼   ► some of the ideas behind Bitcoin are very clever

01:04:33 ◼   ► and interesting and worth pursuing,

01:04:34 ◼   ► kind of get overshadowed by the reality of,

01:04:39 ◼   ► okay, but then what changes is this actually causing

01:04:42 ◼   ► to happen in the world,

01:04:43 ◼   ► and how do I feel about those changes

01:04:45 ◼   ► as someone who isn't enthusiastic about this technology?

01:04:47 ◼   ► And that's where people end up getting conflict.

01:04:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, so anyway, it is worth checking out.

01:04:52 ◼   ► If you listen to the show, if you enjoy the show,

01:04:56 ◼   ► it is likely that you have enough of a nerd's brain,

01:04:59 ◼   ► and I mean that in a complimentary way,

01:05:00 ◼   ► that you would enjoy reading up on this

01:05:02 ◼   ► and learning about it.

01:05:03 ◼   ► And like I said, this 26 minute and 20 second video

01:05:05 ◼   ► really helped me anyway understand how it works.

01:05:08 ◼   ► All right, leaving all that behind us, at least for now.

01:05:10 ◼   ► So yeah, apparently Ubiquiti really kind of screwed up.

01:05:13 ◼   ► - Back to Ubiquiti.

01:05:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, back to Ubiquiti.

01:05:16 ◼   ► Speaking of screw ups, hey-o.

01:05:17 ◼   ► - Are they using all of our routers to mine for Bitcoin?

01:05:20 ◼   ► What's going on?

01:05:20 ◼   ► - Maybe that's it.

01:05:21 ◼   ► It all comes full circle, guys.

01:05:23 ◼   ► It all comes full circle.

01:05:24 ◼   ► - You don't need to start that rumor on the show.

01:05:26 ◼   ► That is not true.

01:05:27 ◼   ► - God, please no.

01:05:28 ◼   ► But no, all kidding and snark aside, this is some stuff.

01:05:32 ◼   ► Like this seems to me, and gosh, it's been a long time

01:05:36 ◼   ► since I've really run anything server side.

01:05:38 ◼   ► So Marco, jump in on,

01:05:40 ◼   ► or actually both of you jump in and correct me,

01:05:41 ◼   ► but it seems to me like a lot of this stuff

01:05:43 ◼   ► was kind of amateur hour

01:05:45 ◼   ► and that they really should have known better

01:05:47 ◼   ► than to make a lot of these mistakes.

01:05:49 ◼   ► And golly, if you're already in a position

01:05:52 ◼   ► where some of your most diehard supporters like Marco,

01:05:55 ◼   ► and again, and I mean that in a complimentary way,

01:05:58 ◼   ► you had said for years Marco, oh, this stuff is the best.

01:06:00 ◼   ► Yeah, it's expensive, but it's the best.

01:06:01 ◼   ► It's so good, blah, blah, blah.

01:06:03 ◼   ► And you had already been backpedaling some

01:06:05 ◼   ► as of literally a week ago.

01:06:06 ◼   ► And now, oh, yikes,

01:06:09 ◼   ► I don't know if I wanna go anywhere near this.

01:06:10 ◼   ► - I mean, here's the thing.

01:06:11 ◼   ► Like, I mean, we don't know that much about this yet.

01:06:14 ◼   ► And honestly, I don't follow this world

01:06:16 ◼   ► very closely normally.

01:06:18 ◼   ► So it's hard to expect any company

01:06:22 ◼   ► to be perfect all the time.

01:06:23 ◼   ► - Sure.

01:06:24 ◼   ► - Something like, you know, Ubiquiti,

01:06:25 ◼   ► they mostly sell like networking gear to companies.

01:06:30 ◼   ► So they have to be expected to have pretty good security

01:06:33 ◼   ► because their devices are kind of assumed

01:06:37 ◼   ► to have good security themselves

01:06:38 ◼   ► 'cause they're being brought into serious businesses

01:06:40 ◼   ► and places where there's high stakes

01:06:42 ◼   ► if their devices are compromised.

01:06:44 ◼   ► So it is important, you know, it's like a server vendor.

01:06:47 ◼   ► It is important that they are trustworthy

01:06:50 ◼   ► and that they are viewed as following

01:06:52 ◼   ► pretty good security practices.

01:06:54 ◼   ► It is also important that they communicate clearly

01:06:58 ◼   ► when there is a problem or when there is a breach.

01:07:01 ◼   ► And in this case, you know,

01:07:03 ◼   ► you can argue whether they should've had this breach at all.

01:07:07 ◼   ► And I don't know enough about it to know

01:07:08 ◼   ► like what was involved, how,

01:07:11 ◼   ► if they were practicing reasonably secure

01:07:14 ◼   ► and responsible practices beforehand, I don't know.

01:07:16 ◼   ► What I do know is that if this accusation is true,

01:07:22 ◼   ► again, that's a big if

01:07:24 ◼   ► because there's, you know, you have to wonder like

01:07:28 ◼   ► could this be some kind of stock manipulation scheme?

01:07:30 ◼   ► They're a public company, I think, right?

01:07:31 ◼   ► Oh yeah, they are, right?

01:07:32 ◼   ► Yeah, so like it could be some kind of weird thing like that.

01:07:34 ◼   ► We don't actually know if this accusation is true or not.

01:07:38 ◼   ► But if it is true, what it points to is

01:07:42 ◼   ► I don't think anything like super damning

01:07:44 ◼   ► about their security practices,

01:07:46 ◼   ► but it does point to a pretty big problem

01:07:48 ◼   ► that they might've like underrepresented

01:07:51 ◼   ► or lied about a pretty substantial breach.

01:07:53 ◼   ► That is worrisome if that is true.

01:07:56 ◼   ► But that being said, what this means for me

01:08:00 ◼   ► and for people out there who have Ubiquiti gear,

01:08:03 ◼   ► it's one of those moments that gives you pause

01:08:05 ◼   ► about some of the features that we have enabled

01:08:08 ◼   ► on these routers and stuff

01:08:08 ◼   ► and some of the abilities they have

01:08:11 ◼   ► and whether we should enable them or not.

01:08:12 ◼   ► So for instance, on my Ubiquiti stuff,

01:08:16 ◼   ► I have auto updates turned on.

01:08:17 ◼   ► I have it, whenever there's a software update,

01:08:19 ◼   ► I have it installed at a certain time

01:08:20 ◼   ► and automatically reboot if it has to

01:08:22 ◼   ► at a certain time that won't disrupt things.

01:08:24 ◼   ► When something like this happens,

01:08:25 ◼   ► you realize, oh, maybe I shouldn't have auto update on

01:08:28 ◼   ► because if somebody compromises their update channel

01:08:31 ◼   ► and has the ability to arbitrarily sign any updates

01:08:36 ◼   ► they want as valid and push them out to all customers,

01:08:39 ◼   ► well, that could be pretty bad for me.

01:08:42 ◼   ► On the other hand, maybe I do want automatic updates

01:08:45 ◼   ► because that lets them patch security holes faster

01:08:47 ◼   ► as they're found, right?

01:08:48 ◼   ► So there's stuff to consider there.

01:08:50 ◼   ► There's also the entire model of Ubiquiti's routers

01:08:54 ◼   ► and stuff, I don't know if people who don't have them,

01:08:57 ◼   ► they probably don't know about this kind of stuff,

01:08:58 ◼   ► there's a whole bunch of remote management

01:09:02 ◼   ► and cloud-based features of Ubiquiti stuff.

01:09:04 ◼   ► So you don't just have a router running in your house

01:09:08 ◼   ► that you log into at like 192.168.1.1 anymore.

01:09:12 ◼   ► That is there still, but you can sign into it from anywhere

01:09:16 ◼   ► if you have that enabled and you can manage things centrally

01:09:19 ◼   ► with your central Ubiquiti account where you're actually

01:09:22 ◼   ► not just signing into your router, you're signing into

01:09:23 ◼   ► Ubiquiti as their single sign-on thing for their service

01:09:27 ◼   ► and then you can access your stuff through their service

01:09:29 ◼   ► from anywhere, you can have all this cloud-based everything

01:09:31 ◼   ► about your local network and its management.

01:09:33 ◼   ► So maybe we don't need to enable those features

01:09:36 ◼   ► as home users.

01:09:36 ◼   ► I've been using that because it's convenient sometimes,

01:09:41 ◼   ► but something like this makes me question,

01:09:43 ◼   ► do I really need that?

01:09:44 ◼   ► Maybe I should be just setting it up once

01:09:47 ◼   ► and then just turning off auto updates

01:09:49 ◼   ► and turning off remote stuff and only updating it manually

01:09:52 ◼   ► like once a year when I think about it

01:09:54 ◼   ► and when I feel like it and then going to check.

01:09:56 ◼   ► Maybe I should go back to a system like that,

01:09:58 ◼   ► which used to be the way I would always do things on routers

01:10:00 ◼   ► because it didn't really matter most of the time.

01:10:03 ◼   ► I don't usually enable remote management of anything

01:10:05 ◼   ► on my home network because I don't usually need it.

01:10:08 ◼   ► So maybe I should go back to something like that

01:10:09 ◼   ► and I think this kind of breach should make

01:10:11 ◼   ► all Ubiquiti customers ask these questions to themselves.

01:10:14 ◼   ► And then finally, if you're able to,

01:10:17 ◼   ► this probably also should remind you to maybe not assume

01:10:22 ◼   ► that your internal network is secure by default.

01:10:26 ◼   ► And that might change what kind of services you offer

01:10:29 ◼   ► locally inside your network, whether you have passwords

01:10:33 ◼   ► on things like file shares or not.

01:10:35 ◼   ► I've always just had passwords on stuff

01:10:37 ◼   ► because I've always kind of assumed,

01:10:39 ◼   ► well, if some kid comes over with their weird

01:10:43 ◼   ► switch or iPad or whatever and I give them our wifi password,

01:10:48 ◼   ► I don't have a VLAN setup or anything like that.

01:10:50 ◼   ► I don't get that complicated.

01:10:51 ◼   ► What if their device gets hacked or they share the password

01:10:54 ◼   ► and then other people can get on my wifi network?

01:10:57 ◼   ► I don't need to know that every single device on my network

01:11:00 ◼   ► is always gonna be trusted and secured

01:11:02 ◼   ► because all the things I run inside my network

01:11:05 ◼   ► I assume to be requiring some base level of security,

01:11:08 ◼   ► requiring passwords and user accounts and stuff like that.

01:11:11 ◼   ► So it would be a good idea to also revisit

01:11:14 ◼   ► those kind of assumptions for people who are looking

01:11:16 ◼   ► at this and getting worried.

01:11:18 ◼   ► If somebody has access to something running on your network,

01:11:21 ◼   ► what do they have access to?

01:11:23 ◼   ► And if you can minimize that, that's probably a good idea

01:11:26 ◼   ► because even if you run some other router

01:11:29 ◼   ► and this problem doesn't apply to you,

01:11:31 ◼   ► we live in a world full of internet of things,

01:11:34 ◼   ► crap devices and everything and it's only a matter of time

01:11:38 ◼   ► before something on your network gets hacked by somebody

01:11:42 ◼   ► and has some kind of vulnerability

01:11:44 ◼   ► that doesn't get patched or whatever.

01:11:45 ◼   ► So something hostile will be on your wifi network eventually

01:11:49 ◼   ► so this is a good way to think about what the risks there

01:11:53 ◼   ► are and think about how you wanna manage those.

01:11:55 ◼   ► And then again going back to Ubiquiti,

01:11:57 ◼   ► thinking about with Ubiquiti stuff,

01:11:59 ◼   ► do you want to enable auto updating

01:12:01 ◼   ► and do you want remote access?

01:12:03 ◼   ► And I think the answer here is gonna,

01:12:05 ◼   ► for a lot of people it's now gonna be maybe not.

01:12:07 ◼   ► - Well I think this gets to the heart

01:12:08 ◼   ► of what you were saying before about communication

01:12:11 ◼   ► from the company because like I said,

01:12:13 ◼   ► people get hacked all the time, it's a thing that happens.

01:12:18 ◼   ► It's essentially unavoidable.

01:12:21 ◼   ► If someone wants to target you and wants to get in,

01:12:24 ◼   ► they probably will get in.

01:12:25 ◼   ► I think history has shown that there is no such thing

01:12:27 ◼   ► as an invulnerable, completely secure anything

01:12:30 ◼   ► that is on any kind of network,

01:12:33 ◼   ► which is why real security requests, as they say, air gap,

01:12:37 ◼   ► although there's all sorts of crazy academic papers

01:12:39 ◼   ► that will show you that even an air gap

01:12:41 ◼   ► isn't sufficient to protect you, but anyway.

01:12:43 ◼   ► The whole point is stuff happens, as they say.

01:12:47 ◼   ► But in that kind of environment,

01:12:50 ◼   ► of course you wanna have auto updates on

01:12:51 ◼   ► because that is your best defense against exploits

01:12:55 ◼   ► because exploits are discovered and then they are patched

01:12:57 ◼   ► and then new ones are discovered and then those are patched

01:12:58 ◼   ► and then other new ones are discovered and they're patched.

01:13:00 ◼   ► And if you opt out of that patching cycle

01:13:03 ◼   ► or do it at a much less frequent time interval,

01:13:06 ◼   ► like a month or a year instead of as soon as the patch

01:13:09 ◼   ► is available, you are vulnerable for longer.

01:13:12 ◼   ► But then we run into the ubiquity problem,

01:13:14 ◼   ► which is not so much that, oh,

01:13:15 ◼   ► maybe the signing certificates got stolen

01:13:18 ◼   ► and someone can put an update as them,

01:13:20 ◼   ► it's that we don't know because ubiquity,

01:13:22 ◼   ► according to the story, has not been upfront about it.

01:13:25 ◼   ► What you want is truthful communication

01:13:28 ◼   ► from the company to tell you,

01:13:30 ◼   ► if they had told you, hey, our stuff was stolen

01:13:33 ◼   ► and people can sign things as us,

01:13:35 ◼   ► everybody turn off your auto updates now

01:13:37 ◼   ► and then the company would later tell you,

01:13:39 ◼   ► okay, we've issued new certificates and redone everything,

01:13:42 ◼   ► now apply this patch manually and re-enable.

01:13:45 ◼   ► That's what you're looking for.

01:13:47 ◼   ► Like the trust in the company is the thing

01:13:50 ◼   ► that is damaged here.

01:13:51 ◼   ► Not so much, again, assuming it's true,

01:13:53 ◼   ► not so much the breach itself

01:13:55 ◼   ► because if you have trust in the company,

01:13:57 ◼   ► you would know which actions to take

01:13:58 ◼   ► because you would just ask the company,

01:13:59 ◼   ► hey, what should I do?

01:14:00 ◼   ► Should I have auto updates on or not?

01:14:02 ◼   ► But now Marco's in a situation of like,

01:14:03 ◼   ► well, I don't know whether I should have them on or not

01:14:06 ◼   ► because I don't even know if this is a thing

01:14:07 ◼   ► that happened or not because if the story is true,

01:14:10 ◼   ► then ubiquity is withholding information

01:14:11 ◼   ► that's making me not trust them,

01:14:13 ◼   ► but if I don't trust them, should I turn on auto updates

01:14:15 ◼   ► or should I not turn them on and I don't know what to do?

01:14:17 ◼   ► And that like, you know,

01:14:19 ◼   ► it's probably some business 101 lesson or whatever.

01:14:20 ◼   ► Like again, stuff is going to happen in your business

01:14:24 ◼   ► that's bad, it's how you handle it that, you know,

01:14:27 ◼   ► within reason, obviously if you're running a store

01:14:30 ◼   ► and it burns to the ground, you have no insurance,

01:14:31 ◼   ► how you handle it isn't that important.

01:14:33 ◼   ► But in situations like this,

01:14:35 ◼   ► how you handle it is a big factor

01:14:37 ◼   ► in how your company comes out of this.

01:14:39 ◼   ► So I really hope either parts of this story are true

01:14:43 ◼   ► or ubiquity at least comes clean at this point.

01:14:45 ◼   ► So its customers know what they should do going forward,

01:14:48 ◼   ► including knowing whether they should just

01:14:50 ◼   ► buy new networking equipment.

01:14:52 ◼   ► - Oh, and to answer everyone's questions about like,

01:14:54 ◼   ► what do I recommend now that ubiquity has a problem?

01:14:58 ◼   ► The answer is I don't know.

01:15:00 ◼   ► I haven't, you know, we have things like, you know,

01:15:03 ◼   ► the previous sponsor Eero, I've used those before,

01:15:05 ◼   ► like in vacation situations and stuff like that

01:15:07 ◼   ► and they've been fine.

01:15:09 ◼   ► But this kind of world, like,

01:15:11 ◼   ► almost everything has downsides somewhere in the chain

01:15:16 ◼   ► or like parties that you have to trust

01:15:19 ◼   ► if you're gonna use it.

01:15:20 ◼   ► You can go the kind of home brewed route

01:15:22 ◼   ► and set up like, you know, like one of those like,

01:15:25 ◼   ► like PF sense things, but those sometimes have problems too.

01:15:28 ◼   ► Like I think they just had a problem recently.

01:15:29 ◼   ► So like there's all sorts of gotchas

01:15:32 ◼   ► with a lot of this stuff.

01:15:33 ◼   ► And I think, again, like a reasonable way to approach it

01:15:38 ◼   ► is probably to keep things pretty simple.

01:15:41 ◼   ► And if you wanna be conservative about, you know,

01:15:45 ◼   ► the security and stuff on your network,