ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► I've had a dumb idea. - Oh, I can't wait.

00:00:04 ◼   ► - I want to know when my garage door has been left open

00:00:08 ◼   ► in the evenings.

00:00:11 ◼   ► Doesn't happen often, but it's something that does happen.

00:00:13 ◼   ► - Isn't the whole purpose of your smart home garage door

00:00:17 ◼   ► opener to alert you to this?

00:00:20 ◼   ► Like when you mentioned that you got one of these smart,

00:00:22 ◼   ► smart garage things probably three years ago, I believe you

00:00:27 ◼   ► specifically said this is what it's for, it's to alert you

00:00:29 ◼   ► if you leave it open unnecessarily.

00:00:32 ◼   ► So is it not doing that in its own app or automatically?

00:00:35 ◼   ► - Well, here's the thing.

00:00:37 ◼   ► As with everything in my life, nothing can ever be simple.

00:00:40 ◼   ► It always has to be difficult.

00:00:42 ◼   ► So I did have the Chamberlain MyQ add-on,

00:00:46 ◼   ► almost daughterboard if you will.

00:00:48 ◼   ► And so what that is, if you're not familiar,

00:00:50 ◼   ► is it's two pieces.

00:00:52 ◼   ► It's a, I can't think of the term, but it's like a thing

00:00:55 ◼   ► you stick to the back of the garage door so it knows

00:00:58 ◼   ► whether it's up or down, right?

00:01:00 ◼   ► It has like, I don't know if it really has an accelerometer,

00:01:02 ◼   ► but it has like mercury switches in it or something like

00:01:04 ◼   ► that, such that--

00:01:05 ◼   ► - Chances are, an accelerometer is probably cheaper

00:01:08 ◼   ► these days than mercury.

00:01:09 ◼   ► - Actually, you're probably right.

00:01:11 ◼   ► I don't even know.

00:01:12 ◼   ► But you get my point, right?

00:01:12 ◼   ► It's something that sticks to the garage door so it knows

00:01:14 ◼   ► if it's down, which is to say vertical, or if it's up,

00:01:17 ◼   ► which is to say horizontal.

00:01:19 ◼   ► And then there's another box that basically proxies

00:01:24 ◼   ► a network request to RF.

00:01:26 ◼   ► So you can come in via the internet and say to this box,

00:01:29 ◼   ► "I would like the door to open, please."

00:01:31 ◼   ► And then it just emits the same radio frequency signal

00:01:35 ◼   ► that a traditional garage door opener that you hold

00:01:37 ◼   ► in your hand would emit, right?

00:01:39 ◼   ► Does that make sense?

00:01:39 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:01:40 ◼   ► - So you can add it to almost any garage door opener.

00:01:43 ◼   ► And I had that for a while and it was great.

00:01:45 ◼   ► And then when I was at WWDC two years ago,

00:01:49 ◼   ► maybe even three years ago now, our garage door,

00:01:52 ◼   ► which had ever, ever, ever so slightly buckled,

00:01:56 ◼   ► really buckled, and it wouldn't open or close anymore.

00:02:00 ◼   ► And so when I came back from WWDC that year,

00:02:02 ◼   ► and again, this is like two or three years ago now,

00:02:04 ◼   ► I decided that, or we decided to get a new garage door.

00:02:07 ◼   ► And with that became a new garage door opener.

00:02:10 ◼   ► Now, I thought to myself,

00:02:12 ◼   ► "Self, you have this new fancy garage door opener.

00:02:15 ◼   ► You have the opportunity, I should say,

00:02:16 ◼   ► for a new fancy garage door opener.

00:02:17 ◼   ► Why wouldn't you get a new fancy garage door opener

00:02:19 ◼   ► where all of this functionality is built right in?

00:02:21 ◼   ► You don't need the little dingus on the door

00:02:23 ◼   ► because the garage door opener is fully aware

00:02:26 ◼   ► whether the garage door is up or down,

00:02:27 ◼   ► and the garage door opener is internet connected.

00:02:30 ◼   ► Everything will be peachy and great."

00:02:32 ◼   ► As it turns out, the particular vendor that we used

00:02:36 ◼   ► for our garage door sold us the most awful,

00:02:41 ◼   ► smart garage door opener in the world.

00:02:43 ◼   ► So it does have an app.

00:02:44 ◼   ► And it is possible I might be able to configure that app

00:02:47 ◼   ► to alert me whether or not the garage doors open

00:02:51 ◼   ► when I go to bed.

00:02:52 ◼   ► But the app is so bad that I don't trust it to do so.

00:02:57 ◼   ► And so I have gone down the path of trying to,

00:03:03 ◼   ► like, man in the middle of this thing

00:03:05 ◼   ► with Charles on the phone

00:03:06 ◼   ► to see if I could figure out their API

00:03:08 ◼   ► and just kind of work this out myself.

00:03:10 ◼   ► But as it turns out, the one and only thing

00:03:14 ◼   ► the Linear Pro Access app does well

00:03:17 ◼   ► is some sort of certificate pinning or something like that,

00:03:19 ◼   ► such that I can't sniff it with Charles.

00:03:21 ◼   ► Like, I'm talking a bit outside my comfort zone at this point

00:03:24 ◼   ► I'm not entirely clear what I'm talking about,

00:03:25 ◼   ► but it does seem clear that Charles

00:03:27 ◼   ► doesn't want to show me what I want to see.

00:03:29 ◼   ► So, now what?

00:03:32 ◼   ► Well, I've got a hammer and it's called the Raspberry Pi.

00:03:37 ◼   ► And everywhere I look there are nails.

00:03:39 ◼   ► - Oh no.

00:03:40 ◼   ► - So, what I've decided, the only reasonable answer

00:03:45 ◼   ► is to get two more Raspberry Pis.

00:03:47 ◼   ► Because why would I use the one I have

00:03:49 ◼   ► when I can get two more?

00:03:51 ◼   ► - To be fair, they are so cheap that you can do that.

00:03:54 ◼   ► - Well, right, that's the thing.

00:03:54 ◼   ► I don't need the big honking Pi 4 that I have for like,

00:03:58 ◼   ► well, I don't even need that for Pi hole,

00:03:59 ◼   ► but that's what I'm using it for

00:04:00 ◼   ► and I don't need it for my VPN.

00:04:01 ◼   ► Like, I'd probably use one of the Pi zeros

00:04:02 ◼   ► for any of these things,

00:04:03 ◼   ► but I do want the Pi 4 for emulation

00:04:05 ◼   ► as we talked about a few episodes back.

00:04:08 ◼   ► So, I thought to myself,

00:04:10 ◼   ► well, I could get a Raspberry Pi Zero wireless,

00:04:13 ◼   ► or ZeroW, whatever they call it,

00:04:14 ◼   ► which is literally $10 for the board.

00:04:16 ◼   ► This is an entire Linux computer for $10,

00:04:21 ◼   ► plus, you know, potentially plus shipping

00:04:22 ◼   ► and so on and so forth.

00:04:24 ◼   ► So, I thought to myself, what I can do is,

00:04:26 ◼   ► I can put a Pi Zero somewhere near the garage door

00:04:29 ◼   ► and get one of those magnetic,

00:04:31 ◼   ► I forget the term for it,

00:04:32 ◼   ► but one of those magnetic switches

00:04:33 ◼   ► where there's a piece on the garage door

00:04:36 ◼   ► and a piece on the door frame, right?

00:04:38 ◼   ► And when those pieces are very close to each other,

00:04:39 ◼   ► the circuit is closed,

00:04:41 ◼   ► and then when the door moves away,

00:04:43 ◼   ► thus the door is open, the circuit is opened.

00:04:46 ◼   ► Then what I can do is, in my bedroom,

00:04:49 ◼   ► I can put a second Pi Zero,

00:04:52 ◼   ► and then I can hook that up to an LED,

00:04:54 ◼   ► and the LED will come on when the door is open, right?

00:04:57 ◼   ► This is flawless.

00:04:58 ◼   ► And so, this afternoon,

00:05:00 ◼   ► I started writing Python for the first time

00:05:03 ◼   ► in probably 10 or 15 years,

00:05:04 ◼   ► and I figured out how to do multicast UDP

00:05:08 ◼   ► between two computers.

00:05:10 ◼   ► Like, I don't have any of the Pi Zeros yet.

00:05:12 ◼   ► I haven't actually committed anything yet

00:05:13 ◼   ► in terms of financial investment.

00:05:15 ◼   ► But I could send UDP messages between the two computers

00:05:19 ◼   ► so that they can talk to each other,

00:05:21 ◼   ► and then just before the show,

00:05:23 ◼   ► I figured out how to flip one of the GPIO,

00:05:26 ◼   ► which is, to say, one of the pins on the Raspberry Pi

00:05:30 ◼   ► that you can use for input or output.

00:05:31 ◼   ► I figured out with Python how to make it go high or go low,

00:05:34 ◼   ► which, to be fair, is extremely simple,

00:05:36 ◼   ► but I'd never done this before.

00:05:37 ◼   ► And so now I'm looking into, like, okay,

00:05:39 ◼   ► how do I, on the sensor side,

00:05:41 ◼   ► what script do I need to write

00:05:43 ◼   ► such that it'll see when the voltage is falling

00:05:45 ◼   ► or perhaps if the voltage is peaking,

00:05:47 ◼   ► and so I can get a call back and interrupt, I guess,

00:05:50 ◼   ► in order to figure out, okay,

00:05:51 ◼   ► now I need to send this multicast message

00:05:53 ◼   ► to the other Raspberry Pi.

00:05:54 ◼   ► And I am sure that there is

00:05:56 ◼   ► an infinitely simpler answer to this.

00:06:00 ◼   ► However, the one thing I'm not terribly keen on

00:06:02 ◼   ► is having to wire something from the garage to my bedroom,

00:06:06 ◼   ► which is silly because I won't mention publicly

00:06:08 ◼   ► that the bedroom is literally right over the garage,

00:06:11 ◼   ► but I don't wanna have to go through walls and whatnot

00:06:14 ◼   ► in order to wire everything,

00:06:15 ◼   ► so why not just put two $10 computers, one on either end,

00:06:19 ◼   ► and poof, it all works via the magic of wireless.

00:06:22 ◼   ► Problem solved.

00:06:23 ◼   ► - Why not just install two $1 mirrors?

00:06:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:06:28 ◼   ► - Because that, what am I gonna do, cut a hole in my floor?

00:06:31 ◼   ► Or, like, stick one out the window?

00:06:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, do, like, a, basically,

00:06:34 ◼   ► like a Periscope kind of arrangement.

00:06:36 ◼   ► Like, have one out the window, you can see,

00:06:38 ◼   ► that's angled, you know, 45 degrees,

00:06:40 ◼   ► and then below it, have another one angled 45 degrees

00:06:42 ◼   ► that looks at the door.

00:06:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I guess I could, but that's no fun, man.

00:06:45 ◼   ► It's not as much fun.

00:06:47 ◼   ► - It'll work 100% of the time.

00:06:48 ◼   ► Never need software updates.

00:06:50 ◼   ► Doesn't depend on your connection.

00:06:52 ◼   ► - It's just no fun, and a lot of people are saying,

00:06:56 ◼   ► well, why not use Homebridge?

00:06:57 ◼   ► Well, I'd love to use Homebridge,

00:06:58 ◼   ► but there is no Homebridge interface

00:07:01 ◼   ► for linear garage door openers.

00:07:03 ◼   ► There is, for the Chamberlain MyQ that I used to use,

00:07:06 ◼   ► and before everyone asks,

00:07:07 ◼   ► we'll just use the Chamberlain MyQ in concert

00:07:10 ◼   ► with the linear Pro-Axis, and number one,

00:07:13 ◼   ► no, I don't wanna do that, number two,

00:07:15 ◼   ► I gave them MyQ away, so either way, I can't.

00:07:17 ◼   ► So yeah, so in the, in my effort to use a Raspberry Pi

00:07:23 ◼   ► for even the things that it is so unbelievably

00:07:26 ◼   ► unnecessary for, I have considered doing exactly this,

00:07:31 ◼   ► and you can't put any of this in the show,

00:07:32 ◼   ► because I don't wanna get well, actually,

00:07:33 ◼   ► for the rest of my life.

00:07:34 ◼   ► - So Rybur in the chat has an even better suggestion.

00:07:36 ◼   ► You can just use one mirror.

00:07:37 ◼   ► If you install it at the end of your driveway,

00:07:40 ◼   ► you could just look at that,

00:07:43 ◼   ► and then you could see, you wouldn't see it as closely

00:07:46 ◼   ► as my Prism setup, but it would be even easier.

00:07:50 ◼   ► You could probably put it on your mailbox

00:07:51 ◼   ► as long as you screw it on instead of stick it on.

00:07:54 ◼   ► - Possibly, yes, although given our last week's conversation

00:07:57 ◼   ► about the Homeowners Association,

00:07:58 ◼   ► I'm sure they would have things to say

00:07:59 ◼   ► about a mirror showing up on my mailbox.

00:08:02 ◼   ► Anyway, I just really wanna, all kidding aside,

00:08:06 ◼   ► I have every confidence that I could do this

00:08:10 ◼   ► without any sort of computing hardware whatsoever,

00:08:12 ◼   ► and probably have some sort of magnetic switch,

00:08:15 ◼   ► and a power supply, and an LED,

00:08:17 ◼   ► and wire that all through the house some way, somehow,

00:08:20 ◼   ► and it would be way more reliable,

00:08:22 ◼   ► and it would probably work forever,

00:08:24 ◼   ► but I don't know, it just seems like less fun.

00:08:26 ◼   ► And one of the things that makes the Raspberry Pi

00:08:31 ◼   ► so appealing to me, and presumably an Arduino

00:08:34 ◼   ► would work for this too, I just don't have any experience

00:08:36 ◼   ► with that personally, but one of the things

00:08:38 ◼   ► that makes it so appealing to me

00:08:40 ◼   ► is the idea of just doing something that's unusual

00:08:42 ◼   ► and different for me.

00:08:43 ◼   ► Like, I never play with hardware.

00:08:45 ◼   ► I think both of you potentially, or certainly,

00:08:48 ◼   ► Marco, you've played with hardware a lot more than I have

00:08:50 ◼   ► with your RFID scanner that you did a couple years back,

00:08:53 ◼   ► and I'm sure there's other examples I'm not thinking of.

00:08:55 ◼   ► Well, like all your retro gaming stuff.

00:08:58 ◼   ► But nonetheless, this is an itch I've never really scratched

00:09:02 ◼   ► and I kinda wanna try it just to see if I can do it,

00:09:06 ◼   ► and it may end up that it doesn't work for beans,

00:09:08 ◼   ► maybe there's something that I'm not thinking of

00:09:10 ◼   ► that will cause it to not work at all,

00:09:12 ◼   ► maybe it'll be deeply unreliable,

00:09:14 ◼   ► or maybe I'll just realize, okay, this is really cool,

00:09:17 ◼   ► I like having this LED in the room that shines

00:09:19 ◼   ► when the garage door is open, but why do I need

00:09:21 ◼   ► two internet connector, well, network,

00:09:24 ◼   ► intranet connected computers to do this?

00:09:26 ◼   ► I could just use a couple of frickin' wires.

00:09:28 ◼   ► So I don't debate that there are better ways

00:09:30 ◼   ► of accomplishing this goal, but I do debate

00:09:33 ◼   ► if there are more fun ways of accomplishing this goal.

00:09:36 ◼   ► So here we are.

00:09:37 ◼   ► Never underestimate the smart home for the ability

00:09:41 ◼   ► to introduce needless complexity and unreliability

00:09:44 ◼   ► into what should and always has been very simple tasks

00:09:48 ◼   ► and roles of objects in your home.

00:09:50 ◼   ► - Yep, it's so true.

00:09:52 ◼   ► I don't know, like all kidding aside,

00:09:53 ◼   ► if not a prism scenario, if you had to do something

00:09:57 ◼   ► that involved some amount of electronics,

00:09:58 ◼   ► now that doesn't necessarily mean an Arduino

00:10:01 ◼   ► or a Raspberry Pi or something like that,

00:10:02 ◼   ► how would you solve this problem?

00:10:04 ◼   ► - I just don't leave the garage door open.

00:10:06 ◼   ► I mean, first of all, how often are you leaving

00:10:08 ◼   ► the house right now?

00:10:10 ◼   ► - Well, that's true too, that's also true.

00:10:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, I just, I mean, we have a garage

00:10:13 ◼   ► with an electric door and we move the car into it

00:10:18 ◼   ► when we arrive and then we close the door behind us.

00:10:21 ◼   ► And when we wanna leave, we open the door,

00:10:24 ◼   ► back the car out, and then close the door and then leave.

00:10:27 ◼   ► - But that's the thing, is that oftentimes

00:10:29 ◼   ► we will open the garage door for the purposes

00:10:31 ◼   ► of letting the kids play or maybe even pull a car out

00:10:33 ◼   ► so the kids can play in the garage and the driveway.

00:10:36 ◼   ► So I take your point that our cars are not leaving

00:10:39 ◼   ► the driveway very often, but the cars are leaving

00:10:41 ◼   ► the garage semi-often, and occasionally the cars

00:10:43 ◼   ► won't leave the garage, we'll just open it up,

00:10:45 ◼   ► play for a while, come in, and maybe just leave it open

00:10:47 ◼   ► because there was no compelling reason to close it

00:10:48 ◼   ► at that moment, and it's very rare, truth be told,

00:10:53 ◼   ► I think it's only like three or four times a year

00:10:55 ◼   ► that we have left the garage door open overnight,

00:10:57 ◼   ► but it annoys me, and this would be a neat way to fix it,

00:10:59 ◼   ► a neat, uselessly complicated way to fix it.

00:11:02 ◼   ► - That will sometimes mostly fix it for a little while.

00:11:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, until something breaks.

00:11:06 ◼   ► A very good question also from Rybur in the chat,

00:11:09 ◼   ► do I have any old phone jacks in the house

00:11:11 ◼   ► I could piggyback off of?

00:11:12 ◼   ► I do in general, but I don't anywhere in the vicinity

00:11:17 ◼   ► of the garage that I'm aware of, so it's a good idea,

00:11:20 ◼   ► but no, I don't think I have anything.

00:11:22 ◼   ► So I am not looking for, I am not necessarily looking

00:11:24 ◼   ► for input about this, 'cause really it's an excuse

00:11:28 ◼   ► for me to do something stupid, I acknowledge it's stupid,

00:11:30 ◼   ► I acknowledge it's uselessly complicated,

00:11:32 ◼   ► but I think it would be fun.

00:11:34 ◼   ► - So other than just not forgetting,

00:11:37 ◼   ► you haven't really given me an answer,

00:11:38 ◼   ► is there any electronic-equipped way

00:11:39 ◼   ► that you would consider doing this?

00:11:42 ◼   ► - Me?

00:11:42 ◼   ► No.

00:11:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, or John, but I'll start with you.

00:11:45 ◼   ► - I don't think, I mean, so okay, one thing I've wanted

00:11:48 ◼   ► for a while, which could solve this problem,

00:11:52 ◼   ► but it's not really meant to be like a fixed thing,

00:11:55 ◼   ► I've wanted basically something that was,

00:11:58 ◼   ► it's almost solvable by a baby monitor,

00:12:01 ◼   ► and I don't know if this exists,

00:12:02 ◼   ► I've looked around a little while and couldn't find it.

00:12:05 ◼   ► So what I want is a battery-powered camera

00:12:10 ◼   ► that I can stick somewhere, like a suction cup,

00:12:12 ◼   ► like a GoPro, like a small battery-powered camera

00:12:16 ◼   ► that I can move around the house easily,

00:12:19 ◼   ► and a small video monitor that can show

00:12:21 ◼   ► what's on that camera live, and they're both portable,

00:12:25 ◼   ► wireless, and would just have batteries.

00:12:27 ◼   ► And the idea here is sometimes I need to keep my eye

00:12:31 ◼   ► on something, and it's somewhere around the house

00:12:34 ◼   ► or something, but it's not always the same place.

00:12:36 ◼   ► So one example might be if you're doing a load of laundry,

00:12:39 ◼   ► I would stick the camera in the laundry room

00:12:41 ◼   ► looking at the machine, so you could see whenever you want

00:12:45 ◼   ► how much time is left, what's the status of the machine.

00:12:47 ◼   ► Similarly, if I'm like roasting coffee

00:12:49 ◼   ► and I wanna go do some work during the boring

00:12:52 ◼   ► first 10 minutes of it, or if I'm cooking something

00:12:56 ◼   ► in the oven or on the grill that takes a long time

00:12:57 ◼   ► and I have a thermometer, yeah, they have

00:12:59 ◼   ► wireless thermometers, they suck, and I have

00:13:02 ◼   ► a nice wired one, so I could just have this looking

00:13:05 ◼   ► at the thermometer screen and I could be in the office

00:13:07 ◼   ► watching the video screen, stuff like that, common needs.

00:13:11 ◼   ► And there's lots of IP cameras, and then you run

00:13:14 ◼   ► an app on your phone, that all is garbage and it sucks,

00:13:17 ◼   ► and I hate it, I've tried those, they're terrible.

00:13:20 ◼   ► And what I want can almost be solved by a baby monitor,

00:13:22 ◼   ► except that usually the camera side of it is AC-powered only

00:13:27 ◼   ► and then the monitor itself is kind of free

00:13:30 ◼   ► to roam around with batteries.

00:13:33 ◼   ► And I want this product to not use the internet at all,

00:13:35 ◼   ► I want it to just be based on RF, like just give me

00:13:38 ◼   ► like 2.4 gigahertz, just like good baby monitors are.

00:13:42 ◼   ► So it's just instant, there's no service involved,

00:13:45 ◼   ► there's no giant latency, there's no service fee,

00:13:48 ◼   ► just a freaking piece of hardware.

00:13:50 ◼   ► And hardware is so cheap these days, I assume

00:13:53 ◼   ► that has to be easily possible, but I haven't looked

00:13:55 ◼   ► too much into it.

00:13:56 ◼   ► Anyway, that same thing could do this if I had one

00:14:00 ◼   ► in the garage.

00:14:01 ◼   ► That being said, I just closed the garage door.

00:14:04 ◼   ► - Well, and generally speaking, we really are pretty good

00:14:06 ◼   ► about this, this isn't like a chronic affliction,

00:14:08 ◼   ► but it's something that, I don't know, it happens

00:14:11 ◼   ► once in a while, and this would be a fun little challenge

00:14:14 ◼   ► to see if I could fix it.

00:14:14 ◼   ► This is very MacGyvery, but for those of us who are old,

00:14:17 ◼   ► a very MacGyvery solution, but I just think it'd be fun.

00:14:20 ◼   ► John, you've been very quiet, I can hardly wait to hear

00:14:23 ◼   ► how you would solve this problem.

00:14:25 ◼   ► - I need a Raspberry Pi to let me figure out how the hell

00:14:27 ◼   ► to get logged into their stupid IRC server

00:14:29 ◼   ► with my supposedly registered NIC.

00:14:32 ◼   ► I can't, it's because of this new IRC client,

00:14:35 ◼   ► like I don't, it's disconnection between me and IRC.

00:14:39 ◼   ► Like I do slash NIC and put a name in it,

00:14:41 ◼   ► and it's just like nothing happens.

00:14:44 ◼   ► Sometimes something happens, it's driving me nuts.

00:14:47 ◼   ► For your garage door stuff, just close the garage door,

00:14:50 ◼   ► JKZ, just, you don't have too much room.

00:14:52 ◼   ► How much do you have to remember in life, really?

00:14:53 ◼   ► Make sure both of your children are accounted for.

00:14:56 ◼   ► You have two of them, so count heads, one, two.

00:14:59 ◼   ► - Well, that didn't work on Home Alone, man.

00:15:00 ◼   ► - Remember to feed them, remember to clothe yourself,

00:15:04 ◼   ► bathe, you know, do all the things.

00:15:07 ◼   ► Close, do you remember to close the front door to your house?

00:15:09 ◼   ► Or do you leave that open a lot too?

00:15:10 ◼   ► - No, no, no, close, yes, lock,

00:15:12 ◼   ► very rarely we forget to lock it.

00:15:14 ◼   ► - I think we just gotta climb the ladder

00:15:16 ◼   ► of things the KZ has to remember.

00:15:17 ◼   ► He remembers to close the front door, not always to lock it.

00:15:20 ◼   ► The garage door is still working on the remember to close.

00:15:23 ◼   ► - What I would look for is a solution for this

00:15:25 ◼   ► that would just, instead of being like,

00:15:27 ◼   ► let me know if the garage door is open,

00:15:30 ◼   ► just close the garage door at the time in which you think

00:15:32 ◼   ► the garage door needs to be closed for the day,

00:15:34 ◼   ► whatever time that is.

00:15:35 ◼   ► Like I have a thing on my lights that says,

00:15:38 ◼   ► just turn off all lights at like a certain time,

00:15:41 ◼   ► when I'm like, look, the day is over.

00:15:42 ◼   ► If I've somehow forgotten to turn the lights off,

00:15:44 ◼   ► just turn them off, right?

00:15:46 ◼   ► And I know that is complicated 'cause it's like,

00:15:47 ◼   ► well, it just has one button,

00:15:48 ◼   ► and when you press it when it's closed, it opens,

00:15:50 ◼   ► and when you press it when it's open, it's closed.

00:15:51 ◼   ► But I believe in your ability to solve this problem.

00:15:54 ◼   ► That's what I would do.

00:15:54 ◼   ► I don't want to know if the garage door is open.

00:15:56 ◼   ► I just want it to close itself if I've left it open.

00:15:59 ◼   ► - That's fair.

00:16:01 ◼   ► - I don't even have a garage door opener, by the way.

00:16:03 ◼   ► Mine opens with the power of muscles, so.

00:16:06 ◼   ► - Really?

00:16:07 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:16:08 ◼   ► - Because it's broken or because that's the way

00:16:09 ◼   ► it's always been?

00:16:10 ◼   ► - Because it's broken, yes.

00:16:11 ◼   ► Spoken like someone who lives in a development

00:16:13 ◼   ► made in the '90s.

00:16:14 ◼   ► No, not because it's broken, Casey,

00:16:16 ◼   ► because there has never been a powered way

00:16:17 ◼   ► to open or close my garage door.

00:16:21 ◼   ► So remember that Mac Mini that I was gonna order

00:16:23 ◼   ► for my Studio B upstairs?

00:16:25 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:26 ◼   ► - Got that in, long story short,

00:16:28 ◼   ► I had to return the first one.

00:16:29 ◼   ► I had a problem, but I got the second one in today.

00:16:31 ◼   ► Installing and setting everything up.

00:16:33 ◼   ► I, for the first time in a while,

00:16:37 ◼   ► set up a completely new installation of macOS

00:16:40 ◼   ► without importing from anything,

00:16:42 ◼   ► without importing from your previous laptop

00:16:43 ◼   ► or anything like that,

00:16:44 ◼   ► and I had to install from scratch

00:16:47 ◼   ► for the first time in a while, Dropbox.

00:16:50 ◼   ► Now, Casey, I know that you have not had

00:16:52 ◼   ► the Dropbox app installed for some time.

00:16:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, a few months now.

00:16:56 ◼   ► - And it had been a while since I had seen

00:16:58 ◼   ► the fresh install.

00:17:00 ◼   ► The way I run Dropbox is, first of all, reluctantly.

00:17:04 ◼   ► Second of all, I run it without its stupid

00:17:10 ◼   ► kernel extension, so I don't use Smart Sync

00:17:13 ◼   ► or any of the other stuff that requires

00:17:14 ◼   ► the kernel extension.

00:17:16 ◼   ► I don't give it accessibility full permission

00:17:19 ◼   ► over my entire system.

00:17:20 ◼   ► - Wait, pause.

00:17:21 ◼   ► How do you not install the kernel extension?

00:17:23 ◼   ► Is there a point in which they give you the option not to?

00:17:26 ◼   ► - I'll get there.

00:17:27 ◼   ► - Okay, okay, carry on.

00:17:28 ◼   ► - So yeah, I don't install the stupid kernel extension

00:17:30 ◼   ► because I don't want, that sounds crazy to me

00:17:32 ◼   ► and it's not worth the risk and instability

00:17:34 ◼   ► that could introduce.

00:17:36 ◼   ► Dropbox is not a company that I trust

00:17:38 ◼   ► to write good software, simple as that.

00:17:41 ◼   ► And also, sorry, no extension,

00:17:43 ◼   ► no accessibility full access,

00:17:47 ◼   ► because again, it has no reason to need that

00:17:49 ◼   ► in my opinion for the things I need to do.

00:17:51 ◼   ► And there's also a dialog every time you reboot usually

00:17:55 ◼   ► where it tries to get you to give it your system password

00:17:59 ◼   ► in a dialog box that looks like the system

00:18:03 ◼   ► password dialog authentication box but isn't.

00:18:05 ◼   ► Basically, it's tricking you

00:18:07 ◼   ► and it's horrible security practices, right?

00:18:10 ◼   ► So I never give it that password.

00:18:13 ◼   ► On a fresh installation, doing this fresh,

00:18:17 ◼   ► they have made it harder than ever to achieve this setup.

00:18:21 ◼   ► - That's not surprising.

00:18:22 ◼   ► - The stuff they do is so misleading,

00:18:25 ◼   ► so incredibly unethical, it's just so many

00:18:29 ◼   ► dark design patterns, it is so hard

00:18:33 ◼   ► to get through that installation

00:18:34 ◼   ► without giving them full access to your entire system

00:18:37 ◼   ► at the kernel level and giving them your admin password

00:18:40 ◼   ► and giving them accessibility full permission

00:18:41 ◼   ► to look at everything you're doing in the system.

00:18:44 ◼   ► It's absurd, so I have never in my life

00:18:47 ◼   ► been more angry at Dropbox than I am this morning and today.

00:18:51 ◼   ► I've decided I'm done with them,

00:18:52 ◼   ► I am going to quit Dropbox.

00:18:53 ◼   ► So I wanted to ask you, Casey,

00:18:56 ◼   ► how you've done it so far and how it's working out,

00:18:59 ◼   ► because really, it's just malware at this point.

00:19:03 ◼   ► It is more invasive to your system

00:19:05 ◼   ► than most malware would be.

00:19:07 ◼   ► Most malware wouldn't have the guts to do what Dropbox does.

00:19:11 ◼   ► It's so bad, I'm so offended by the horribleness

00:19:16 ◼   ► of what Dropbox does and how much it tries

00:19:19 ◼   ► to insert itself into every single part of your system

00:19:21 ◼   ► for reasons that mostly benefit them and not you.

00:19:24 ◼   ► It's just absurd, and so I'm done.

00:19:27 ◼   ► So what is the world after Dropbox like for you?

00:19:31 ◼   ► How did you get there and how have you been finding it?

00:19:34 ◼   ► - It is important to understand the context

00:19:36 ◼   ► for what I'm about to say, which is,

00:19:38 ◼   ► as I've said many times over the last couple of months,

00:19:40 ◼   ► one of the best worst things that has come

00:19:42 ◼   ► from all my computer problems is that my computers

00:19:45 ◼   ► are basically ephemeral at this point.

00:19:48 ◼   ► I could lose one of them and really,

00:19:52 ◼   ► I'm sure I would, I don't doubt there'd be some file

00:19:55 ◼   ► somewhere that I would miss, I'm sure there would be.

00:19:57 ◼   ► But in the grand scheme of things, I would be fine.

00:20:01 ◼   ► Like if this Mac Pro, iMac Pro, I almost said Mac Pro,

00:20:04 ◼   ► if this iMac Pro just took a dump right now,

00:20:08 ◼   ► I can't think of anything that I literally could not

00:20:10 ◼   ► live without, and I do have backups, but at the same time,

00:20:14 ◼   ► like even leaving those backups aside,

00:20:16 ◼   ► I can't think of anything that I would be like,

00:20:18 ◼   ► (gasps)

00:20:18 ◼   ► oh no, you know what I mean?

00:20:20 ◼   ► And that's the same of my laptop,

00:20:22 ◼   ► and other than not having a phone,

00:20:24 ◼   ► it's really the same in my phone too.

00:20:26 ◼   ► I think on my phone I would lose a couple of weeks

00:20:28 ◼   ► worth of pictures potentially if they're not

00:20:30 ◼   ► in my photo stream, but that's about it.

00:20:34 ◼   ► So--

00:20:35 ◼   ► - Wait, you still aren't using iCloud Photo Library?

00:20:37 ◼   ► - No, because reasons, we can belittle me

00:20:40 ◼   ► about that another time.

00:20:40 ◼   ► We can belittle me about that another time, I deserve it.

00:20:42 ◼   ► But we're gonna set that aside.

00:20:44 ◼   ► So yeah, so my computers don't really have anything

00:20:50 ◼   ► extremely critical on them, and the only stuff

00:20:54 ◼   ► that's really, really critical that is on my computers

00:20:57 ◼   ► is either in a Git repository that is synced with GitHub,

00:21:02 ◼   ► or in Synology Drive, which is my replacement for Dropbox.

00:21:07 ◼   ► Now, Synology Drive suffers from the same problem

00:21:09 ◼   ► as Apple TV.

00:21:10 ◼   ► When I say Synology Drive, I can be referring

00:21:12 ◼   ► to one of 34 different products, and 75 versions

00:21:16 ◼   ► of those 34 different products, and it is infuriating.

00:21:20 ◼   ► But there is a client that you can install on Mac OS,

00:21:24 ◼   ► and the UI is not stupendous, it looks like it's a Java app,

00:21:28 ◼   ► or something like that, but the good news is,

00:21:30 ◼   ► I never see the UI for the most part.

00:21:32 ◼   ► Like I see the little thing in the menu bar, and that's it.

00:21:35 ◼   ► Like, I never really see the UI,

00:21:37 ◼   ► I never really interact with the UI, because why?

00:21:39 ◼   ► Because it just magically is part of Finder,

00:21:41 ◼   ► like Dropbox used to be back when it was good,

00:21:44 ◼   ► back when they didn't give a shit about work chat,

00:21:47 ◼   ► or whatever the stupid things are that they're doing

00:21:49 ◼   ► that's like Evernote, which also went down the toilet.

00:21:53 ◼   ► So it's very similar to Dropbox in the days of Jor

00:21:58 ◼   ► when Dropbox was still good.

00:22:00 ◼   ► It is not perfect.

00:22:02 ◼   ► The iOS apps in particular, they function fine,

00:22:05 ◼   ► but their integration with the iOS Files app

00:22:08 ◼   ► is very janky, from what I can tell.

00:22:11 ◼   ► To be fair, I haven't tried this in a few months,

00:22:12 ◼   ► but as an example, I am a super nerd,

00:22:15 ◼   ► and I like to keep a log of every time

00:22:19 ◼   ► we put gas in our cars.

00:22:21 ◼   ► You see, Marco, some of us put old liquified dinosaurs

00:22:25 ◼   ► into our cars, and that's how we propel them.

00:22:27 ◼   ► I know that's very barbaric,

00:22:28 ◼   ► but some of us are still living in the past.

00:22:30 ◼   ► - And that's not the part that sounds like the past.

00:22:35 ◼   ► The part that sounds the past is you're keeping a gas log.

00:22:38 ◼   ► - Well, that's true, too.

00:22:39 ◼   ► - Like, it's one thing if it's part of your work

00:22:41 ◼   ► that you get reimbursed for fuel.

00:22:43 ◼   ► That's not true for you.

00:22:45 ◼   ► - Nope, nope, nope, nope.

00:22:46 ◼   ► - Okay, all right.

00:22:47 ◼   ► - So anyway, so leaving that aside,

00:22:50 ◼   ► but what I'll do is occasionally--

00:22:51 ◼   ► - It's leaving somebody open tangents here.

00:22:53 ◼   ► - I know.

00:22:55 ◼   ► God willing, we'll forget all of them, including me.

00:22:57 ◼   ► So anyway, so what I'll occasionally do is,

00:23:00 ◼   ► especially if I'm with Erin and she's filling up her car,

00:23:03 ◼   ► I'll wanna take my phone and go to my numbers spreadsheet

00:23:06 ◼   ► that is stored in Synology Drive

00:23:08 ◼   ► and edit it using the Files app.

00:23:11 ◼   ► So I'll load the Files app,

00:23:13 ◼   ► go into the Synology Drive section,

00:23:14 ◼   ► find the numbers file I'm trying to edit,

00:23:17 ◼   ► open it up in numbers on my iPad or iPhone,

00:23:21 ◼   ► and like eight times out of 10,

00:23:23 ◼   ► I'm looking at a several version old version of that file,

00:23:26 ◼   ► because I think that was the last time

00:23:27 ◼   ► that the Files app within my iOS device opened it.

00:23:31 ◼   ► Does that make any sense at all?

00:23:32 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:23:33 ◼   ► - So that kinda sucks.

00:23:36 ◼   ► So if you're relying on integration with the Files app,

00:23:39 ◼   ► last I checked, not great.

00:23:42 ◼   ► But for Macs and for the Synology Drive app

00:23:45 ◼   ► on your iOS device, if you're not involving the Files app,

00:23:48 ◼   ► it works pretty much flawlessly.

00:23:50 ◼   ► And I probably should be a little clearer about what it is.

00:23:52 ◼   ► It's basically hosted Dropbox

00:23:54 ◼   ► where the host is your Synology.

00:23:56 ◼   ► So all your files exist on your Synology.

00:23:58 ◼   ► It'll replicate them between all your devices in real time.

00:24:01 ◼   ► And it seems to, as far as I can tell,

00:24:04 ◼   ► work extremely reliably in that capacity.

00:24:08 ◼   ► The only downside I see, well, there's two, I suppose.

00:24:11 ◼   ► One, you don't know which friggin' thing

00:24:14 ◼   ► you have to download and what you need to install

00:24:16 ◼   ► in the Synology to get this version of Drive.

00:24:18 ◼   ► And it's very frustrating in that regard,

00:24:20 ◼   ► because there's, so to speak, not literally,

00:24:22 ◼   ► there's Drive, Drive Plus, Drive the hardware device,

00:24:26 ◼   ► Drive the software, Drive the old software,

00:24:28 ◼   ► Drive the new software, Drive for iOS, you know what I mean?

00:24:30 ◼   ► It's like the same thing as Apple TV.

00:24:32 ◼   ► Oh, the Apple TV, the hardware Apple TV,

00:24:33 ◼   ► the software Apple TV, plus the service.

00:24:36 ◼   ► It's preposterous in that regard.

00:24:37 ◼   ► That's the one downside.

00:24:38 ◼   ► The other downside is Files app integration iOS

00:24:41 ◼   ► is a little eh, but other than that,

00:24:43 ◼   ► like especially if you're just viewing this

00:24:45 ◼   ► from a keeping my Macs in sync perspective,

00:24:48 ◼   ► and then maybe every great once in a while,

00:24:50 ◼   ► I'll look at something in the Synology Drive app

00:24:51 ◼   ► on your iOS device, ChefKiss, it's good to go.

00:24:54 ◼   ► I don't know why I haven't done it already.

00:24:56 ◼   ► The question I really need to ask you too is,

00:24:58 ◼   ► are we gonna choose to move to iCloud shared folders

00:25:00 ◼   ► to pass MP3s between each other?

00:25:03 ◼   ► - No.

00:25:04 ◼   ► - I just, I don't trust it.

00:25:06 ◼   ► I just don't trust it.

00:25:08 ◼   ► It had such a rough launch,

00:25:10 ◼   ► I think it's gonna need even more time

00:25:12 ◼   ► of it just being boring and working for everybody

00:25:14 ◼   ► all the time before I will really trust it.

00:25:17 ◼   ► - Well then, you can do what I do and load Dropbox.com

00:25:20 ◼   ► every time you need to upload a file,

00:25:22 ◼   ► 'cause that's how I do it.

00:25:23 ◼   ► I do not have Dropbox installed on any of my Macs.

00:25:26 ◼   ► It might be on my iOS devices.

00:25:28 ◼   ► It's been so long since I've touched it,

00:25:30 ◼   ► I don't even know, to be honest.

00:25:31 ◼   ► - Well on iOS, it's safe, right?

00:25:32 ◼   ► 'Cause I know, this is one of the advantages

00:25:35 ◼   ► of the iOS extreme security sandbox approach,

00:25:39 ◼   ► is you can trust that there's not that much bad stuff

00:25:43 ◼   ► that any app can do, and if you wanted to get rid of it,

00:25:46 ◼   ► you could just delete it and it's all gone,

00:25:48 ◼   ► but you know, I as a developer know

00:25:50 ◼   ► that the Dropbox iOS app can't do almost any of this stuff

00:25:55 ◼   ► that I have a problem with.

00:25:56 ◼   ► Like, it really can't do any of it, actually.

00:25:59 ◼   ► There's very little ability for it to do anything

00:26:02 ◼   ► that would even be remotely shady on iOS,

00:26:06 ◼   ► yet on the Mac, it basically behaves like a rootkit,

00:26:09 ◼   ► and it's like one of the most popular pieces

00:26:13 ◼   ► of software in the world.

00:26:14 ◼   ► And it's gotten worse and worse.

00:26:17 ◼   ► So the good thing is, they have recently rewritten

00:26:20 ◼   ► their sync engine, so whereas before,

00:26:23 ◼   ► it would just consume one entire core

00:26:26 ◼   ► when you're doing anything else in the file system

00:26:28 ◼   ► that isn't even in Dropbox directory,

00:26:29 ◼   ► like unzipping a new Xcode in your downloads folder,

00:26:33 ◼   ► or whatever, it would just consume one core.

00:26:35 ◼   ► Now, they've made it so that it can consume

00:26:38 ◼   ► multiple cores of your computer

00:26:39 ◼   ► when you're not even doing anything with Dropbox.

00:26:41 ◼   ► - Delightful.

00:26:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, so they've really expanded the scope

00:26:45 ◼   ► of the amount of resources that can suck

00:26:47 ◼   ► from your computer for no good reason.

00:26:49 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm getting rid of it.

00:26:50 ◼   ► Like, I've already decided I'm done.

00:26:51 ◼   ► My only question's like, what do I do to fix,

00:26:54 ◼   ► to alleviate some of these needs for it that I've had?

00:26:57 ◼   ► - Oh, and the other thing I'll say with Drive

00:26:58 ◼   ► is that I haven't explored doing any sort

00:27:01 ◼   ► of public file sharing, so I don't think

00:27:05 ◼   ► it would be easy for you and me to share,

00:27:08 ◼   ► or the three of us to share files,

00:27:09 ◼   ► unless I like, had you guys, or I created accounts

00:27:13 ◼   ► for you guys on my Synology, which, I mean, I can,

00:27:16 ◼   ► but it seems a little bit overkill.

00:27:18 ◼   ► And then you would have to like, point Drive,

00:27:20 ◼   ► 'cause it seems like you can point Drive

00:27:21 ◼   ► at several different destinations concurrently,

00:27:23 ◼   ► and so you would have to point Drive at my Synology,

00:27:27 ◼   ► at our shared folder, which again, like, we can do that,

00:27:30 ◼   ► but it's nowhere near as easy as Dropbox,

00:27:32 ◼   ► where you basically say, take this folder,

00:27:33 ◼   ► share it with that email address,

00:27:34 ◼   ► and just make magic happen.

00:27:35 ◼   ► Because again, back when Dropbox was good,

00:27:38 ◼   ► that was one of the great things about it.

00:27:39 ◼   ► You could just say, share this folder with Marco and John,

00:27:42 ◼   ► and poof, it's shared.

00:27:43 ◼   ► And that I do miss, although in my case,

00:27:47 ◼   ► the only thing I'm ever really sharing with anyone,

00:27:49 ◼   ► I guess 'cause I'm a jerk or because I work alone,

00:27:51 ◼   ► is files with you, you too, or files with Mike.

00:27:56 ◼   ► And I'll just go to the Dropbox website for that.

00:27:58 ◼   ► - So this may seem like a dumb question,

00:28:01 ◼   ► but why don't we just use like FTP?

00:28:04 ◼   ► Like, I have a server, I have many servers, actually.

00:28:07 ◼   ► Like, why don't we just-- (laughing)

00:28:09 ◼   ► Why don't I just like, set up a folder

00:28:11 ◼   ► on my Marco.org server, and just set up

00:28:14 ◼   ► like, an SFTP server there,

00:28:16 ◼   ► and that's where we put our files?

00:28:17 ◼   ► Like, is there, you know, like,

00:28:19 ◼   ► obviously this kind of solution doesn't work

00:28:20 ◼   ► for people who need to interact

00:28:21 ◼   ► with a whole bunch of other people.

00:28:23 ◼   ► But for us, we were mainly interacting

00:28:25 ◼   ► with the same very small handful of people

00:28:26 ◼   ► who were all nerds.

00:28:28 ◼   ► Like, why don't we just do that?

00:28:29 ◼   ► - I mean, you certainly could.

00:28:30 ◼   ► - Doesn't the Finder have native integration?

00:28:32 ◼   ► Like, couldn't you literally have like,

00:28:33 ◼   ► a thing in your Finder sidebar that just was,

00:28:37 ◼   ► we just call it the ATP Dropbox or whatever,

00:28:39 ◼   ► and it would just go there?

00:28:39 ◼   ► Like, wouldn't that work?

00:28:41 ◼   ► - You're afraid of using the Dropbox software,

00:28:43 ◼   ► and you wanna use the Finder's FTP integration?

00:28:46 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:28:48 ◼   ► - You make a good point.

00:28:49 ◼   ► - I don't know if that still even exists,

00:28:50 ◼   ► but I would really not trust that code.

00:28:52 ◼   ► I would use Transmit or something,

00:28:53 ◼   ► and then I'd have to launch another app.

00:28:55 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, I would use Transmit too,

00:28:56 ◼   ► but you know, it'd be nice if there could be,

00:28:58 ◼   ► like, of all the many different protocols

00:29:02 ◼   ► that Finder does support for various network

00:29:05 ◼   ► and internet shares, it would be nice to use,

00:29:07 ◼   ► like, does WebDAV, is that still a thing that exists?

00:29:10 ◼   ► - No, I'm not using WebDAV.

00:29:11 ◼   ► - It does exist.

00:29:11 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:29:12 ◼   ► It does exist.

00:29:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, so like, you know, maybe we could just do

00:29:15 ◼   ► whatever the heck WebDAV was. (laughing)

00:29:18 ◼   ► I still am not entirely clear.

00:29:19 ◼   ► - SFTP is the homegrown solution, but you know, whatever.

00:29:24 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:29:25 ◼   ► Like, it gets annoying for, if you're not just using it

00:29:28 ◼   ► as a literal Dropbox, you know, where you're just

00:29:31 ◼   ► dumping things in, the two-way syncing

00:29:33 ◼   ► and the always liveness is the feature you want.

00:29:35 ◼   ► I mean, you can use OneDrive for Microsoft,

00:29:37 ◼   ► Google has a solution, there's all,

00:29:39 ◼   ► lots of companies make products similar to Dropbox.

00:29:41 ◼   ► - But see, I feel like if I'm gonna, like,

00:29:43 ◼   ► finally leave the, you know, the experience

00:29:47 ◼   ► and network effect of Dropbox, I don't think

00:29:51 ◼   ► I really want to just go to another thing

00:29:53 ◼   ► that's just like it, also run by a giant enterprise-y

00:29:55 ◼   ► company that wants probably to do more stuff

00:29:58 ◼   ► with my system, at least now, if not in the future.

00:30:00 ◼   ► So like, first of all, I'm not gonna install

00:30:02 ◼   ► Google's software, 'cause even trust issues aside,

00:30:06 ◼   ► I've heard nothing but horrible things about Google's,

00:30:09 ◼   ► like, system demons that you have to install

00:30:10 ◼   ► for things like their photo uploader and stuff like that.

00:30:12 ◼   ► Like, everyone says they suck.

00:30:13 ◼   ► - Yep, they do, or they did a year ago, anyway,

00:30:16 ◼   ► I can't speak of recently.

00:30:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, maybe they're better now,

00:30:18 ◼   ► but probably not, right?

00:30:19 ◼   ► Like, just like, you know, maybe iCloud Drive

00:30:21 ◼   ► is better now, probably not, right?

00:30:22 ◼   ► So like, I'm not super keen on that.

00:30:26 ◼   ► And yeah, Microsoft too, it's like, you know,

00:30:28 ◼   ► Microsoft probably does a better job than Google,

00:30:30 ◼   ► but I can't imagine it's good, necessarily,

00:30:32 ◼   ► like in absolute terms.

00:30:34 ◼   ► So if I can avoid having some kind of always running

00:30:37 ◼   ► persistent demon by one of these giant companies

00:30:39 ◼   ► that has a lot more interest than just syncing

00:30:42 ◼   ► the folder, I'd rather avoid that if I can.

00:30:45 ◼   ► So that's why I like looking at something like

00:30:46 ◼   ► either just using the Dropbox website,

00:30:48 ◼   ► or using Transmit's built-in Dropbox client functionality,

00:30:50 ◼   ► if that still works, I gotta investigate that,

00:30:53 ◼   ► or, you know, using just like an FTP server,

00:30:55 ◼   ► I'd rather do options like that.

00:30:57 ◼   ► - You know, if all you were doing is sending MP3 files

00:31:01 ◼   ► with iCloud, shared iCloud folders,

00:31:03 ◼   ► I personally would be fine with trusting it,

00:31:06 ◼   ► as long as that was not the only place

00:31:08 ◼   ► that these files existed.

00:31:09 ◼   ► You know, so as an example, when I upload something

00:31:12 ◼   ► to Dropbox, I am uploading a duplicate of that file

00:31:15 ◼   ► to Dropbox, so if Dropbox just went poof

00:31:17 ◼   ► in a cloud of smoke, it's not like that file disappears.

00:31:20 ◼   ► You know, and if we made a gentleman's agreement

00:31:22 ◼   ► that we weren't moving the only copy of our recordings

00:31:25 ◼   ► into the iCloud shared drive, but rather a duplicate,

00:31:29 ◼   ► like whatever, I don't think that would be a problem.

00:31:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, copy, not move.

00:31:32 ◼   ► - No, it would be a problem, because the problem

00:31:35 ◼   ► would happen is that you'd copy it into there,

00:31:38 ◼   ► and then you'd go to sleep, and then Marco would be like

00:31:40 ◼   ► doing an all night edit, and your file would have been

00:31:43 ◼   ► corrupted or half written or overwritten itself

00:31:46 ◼   ► or missing entirely, and then he's trying to wake you up

00:31:48 ◼   ► for you to try again to copy it,

00:31:50 ◼   ► 'cause your copy didn't work, and of course,

00:31:51 ◼   ► you don't see those 'cause you're asleep,

00:31:52 ◼   ► and have do not disturb on, and then you wake up

00:31:53 ◼   ► in the morning with 20 frantic messages from Marco,

00:31:55 ◼   ► who couldn't make the show.

00:31:56 ◼   ► - Isn't the potential for that the same

00:31:58 ◼   ► no matter what option you pick?

00:31:59 ◼   ► - No, no, 'cause that's the whole thing with iCloud Drive,

00:32:02 ◼   ► that half the time, like, your files disappear,

00:32:04 ◼   ► or were there briefly and aren't there,

00:32:05 ◼   ► or replaced with older versions themselves,

00:32:08 ◼   ► or disappear entirely, or stop updating on your end,

00:32:11 ◼   ► but that's the whole thing, like,

00:32:13 ◼   ► the reliability aspect of it.

00:32:15 ◼   ► Just because Casey thinks he successfully copied it,

00:32:17 ◼   ► and it looks like it's done, doesn't mean it shows up

00:32:20 ◼   ► on your end, that's the whole, you know,

00:32:22 ◼   ► occasionally you have to like, sign out of iCloud

00:32:25 ◼   ► and nuke all your data and log back in,

00:32:27 ◼   ► and you know, that debugging procedure,

00:32:29 ◼   ► especially if you use iCloud Photo Library,

00:32:30 ◼   ► you don't ever wanna sign out of iCloud on your Mac.

00:32:33 ◼   ► - Oh, forget it, no.

00:32:35 ◼   ► - Right, so that's, you know, oh, I don't know why

00:32:37 ◼   ► it's not syncing, I copied it on my side,

00:32:38 ◼   ► and then Marco's like, well, I don't see it

00:32:40 ◼   ► over on this side, and then, you know, no.

00:32:42 ◼   ► No to iCloud Drive, SFDP, yes, iCloud Drive, no.

00:32:46 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:32:47 ◼   ► - Well, for what it's worth, I would hope that Marco

00:32:49 ◼   ► would be privy to, or at least aware enough to,

00:32:53 ◼   ► call me twice in short succession if he needed

00:32:57 ◼   ► to wake me up to get this file in, you know,

00:32:58 ◼   ► in an emergency, 'cause I do--

00:32:59 ◼   ► - I would never do that.

00:33:01 ◼   ► - And then you'd still have to get the file,

00:33:02 ◼   ► you're like, well, I copied it, what else should I do?

00:33:04 ◼   ► And then you'd say, I don't know, let me just try Dropbox,

00:33:06 ◼   ► and then it would sync, and then get your file.

00:33:07 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:33:08 ◼   ► - Well, that's true.

00:33:10 ◼   ► I should say that a lot of people, when I was exploring this

00:33:13 ◼   ► before I started running Synology Drive,

00:33:15 ◼   ► to my recollection, and I'm seeing it a lot in the chat,

00:33:17 ◼   ► other than the, like, Google Drives and Office,

00:33:20 ◼   ► Microsoft Live, whatever thing that Microsoft does,

00:33:24 ◼   ► a lot of people said both Next Cloud and Own Cloud.

00:33:27 ◼   ► To be clear, I know basically nothing about either of them,

00:33:30 ◼   ► but I did hear a lot of people say that both of them

00:33:32 ◼   ► are very good, so if you wanted something, Marco,

00:33:35 ◼   ► that was not self-hosted, or I'm assuming

00:33:39 ◼   ► they're not self-hosted, they very well may be,

00:33:41 ◼   ► it ultimately doesn't matter.

00:33:43 ◼   ► If you're interested in this, Marco/listener,

00:33:45 ◼   ► look it up yourself, but those are other options.

00:33:48 ◼   ► I think, personally, for the three of us, yeah,

00:33:52 ◼   ► like, I would be okay to try iCloud Drive,

00:33:55 ◼   ► but I would also be perfectly fine to SFTP it,

00:33:56 ◼   ► or you know, or SCP it, or whatever, somewhere.

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00:35:51 ◼   ► - Ready to start the show?

00:35:55 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:35:56 ◼   ► Let's start with some follow-up 39 minutes in.

00:35:59 ◼   ► - I mean, technically that was Mac mini follow-up for me.

00:36:02 ◼   ► - Good job.

00:36:03 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:36:04 ◼   ► - All right, Jon, tell me, how was your new video card?

00:36:08 ◼   ► - It's big, new video card is big.

00:36:11 ◼   ► First, you know, when this package arrived,

00:36:13 ◼   ► it got delayed again, it actually came today,

00:36:15 ◼   ► as opposed to like almost a week ago,

00:36:18 ◼   ► that I expected it to come.

00:36:19 ◼   ► And I knew it arrived today, hearing it land on my doorstep,

00:36:24 ◼   ► apparently thrown from the curb, I'm not sure

00:36:27 ◼   ► from how far away this thing was thrown,

00:36:28 ◼   ► but it like landed on my doorstep so loudly

00:36:31 ◼   ► that I could hear it across the house.

00:36:32 ◼   ► I'm like, I guess my package is here.

00:36:34 ◼   ► - Oh God.

00:36:35 ◼   ► - Thank goodness for Apple's very sturdy,

00:36:38 ◼   ► very cool packaging, you know, and double boxing.

00:36:41 ◼   ► And anyway, it seems to be intact.

00:36:43 ◼   ► When I was installing it, I was just revealing,

00:36:46 ◼   ► oh, this is the Radeon Pro W5700X with 16 gigs of RAM.

00:36:53 ◼   ► It's a single GPU, it's AMD's newish GPU architecture,

00:36:58 ◼   ► but it's a workstation-ish card.

00:37:02 ◼   ► Anyway, you can look up the specs.

00:37:04 ◼   ► So it's, it takes up, I don't know what the, it's for you.

00:37:09 ◼   ► It takes up four slots on the back of your,

00:37:11 ◼   ► poor PCI slots on the back of your computer.

00:37:12 ◼   ► That's how high it is, right?

00:37:13 ◼   ► So the card just goes in one, it's an MPX module.

00:37:15 ◼   ► So it's got PCI connector, and then it's got

00:37:18 ◼   ► this other connector that it gets like power

00:37:19 ◼   ► and other crap through.

00:37:20 ◼   ► Anyway, there's two of those things inside a Mac Pro.

00:37:24 ◼   ► There is an MPX slot at the very, very bottom,

00:37:27 ◼   ► and then kind of in the middle-ish,

00:37:28 ◼   ► there's another MPX slot.

00:37:29 ◼   ► Those are the only two places in the computer

00:37:31 ◼   ► you can put one of these MPX modules

00:37:33 ◼   ► that has the two big honking connectors on it, right?

00:37:35 ◼   ► Lots of other PCI slots are plain old cards,

00:37:37 ◼   ► but these MPX modules can only go in those two spots.

00:37:39 ◼   ► So right away, I'm faced with the decision,

00:37:41 ◼   ► do I put this thing in the bottom slot

00:37:44 ◼   ► where my old 580X was, or do I put it in the middle?

00:37:48 ◼   ► So first I took the 580X out.

00:37:50 ◼   ► So now there's nothing in there.

00:37:51 ◼   ► I'm looking at the options, and I'm like, hmm.

00:37:54 ◼   ► If I put it at the bottom,

00:37:56 ◼   ► like it's right next to the power supply,

00:37:59 ◼   ► maybe it would be better if I put it in the middle,

00:38:01 ◼   ► 'cause then it would be like power supply, empty space,

00:38:05 ◼   ► big honking GPU, empty space, CPU.

00:38:08 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:38:09 ◼   ► And I decided to do that.

00:38:13 ◼   ► I took out all the little spacers,

00:38:15 ◼   ► which are really cool, by the way,

00:38:16 ◼   ► the little black covers for your PCI slots.

00:38:19 ◼   ► Those are nice.

00:38:20 ◼   ► They're worth a lot on eBay someday.

00:38:21 ◼   ► I'm gonna save those for my kids' college fund/retirement.

00:38:25 ◼   ► And I put it in the middle,

00:38:28 ◼   ► but once I had it in the middle,

00:38:29 ◼   ► I realized it's not really well lined up

00:38:31 ◼   ► with the middle fan.

00:38:33 ◼   ► I was hoping the middle fan would blow directly onto it,

00:38:38 ◼   ► but it was more like it was catching

00:38:39 ◼   ► like either the top or the bottom of the middle fan,

00:38:41 ◼   ► and I didn't really like that.

00:38:43 ◼   ► So I took it out.

00:38:44 ◼   ► After putting it in the middle,

00:38:45 ◼   ► I took it out of the middle,

00:38:47 ◼   ► and I said, all right, you're gonna go on the bottom.

00:38:48 ◼   ► It's the only other choice.

00:38:49 ◼   ► So I put it in the bottom,

00:38:51 ◼   ► and that seemed better lined up with the bottom fan.

00:38:53 ◼   ► The bottom fan is blowing like right on the new GPU.

00:38:56 ◼   ► Even though it's up against the power supply,

00:38:59 ◼   ► that's the best option,

00:39:00 ◼   ► which is interesting because if you think about,

00:39:02 ◼   ► the three fans are sort of evenly spaced

00:39:04 ◼   ► in the front of the computer.

00:39:05 ◼   ► The top one is very well aligned with the CPU heat sink.

00:39:09 ◼   ► It's that big giant fan, and then your CPU heat sink.

00:39:11 ◼   ► But the bottom two are not really well aligned

00:39:14 ◼   ► with any of the slots.

00:39:15 ◼   ► Anyway, so I got the thing in the bottom,

00:39:18 ◼   ► and then I've got the 580X outside the thing.

00:39:21 ◼   ► I was gonna pack away the 580X in the packaging

00:39:24 ◼   ► that the big one came in and just put it in my attic,

00:39:25 ◼   ► but I was like, you know what?

00:39:27 ◼   ► Let me try sticking it in this computer too.

00:39:29 ◼   ► And of course I only have one choice of where it goes,

00:39:31 ◼   ► the other MPX slot, which just so happens to be,

00:39:34 ◼   ► basically touching the thing.

00:39:35 ◼   ► So it's like the 4U thing, and then the 2U,

00:39:39 ◼   ► even the 580X is 2U because both of these GPUs

00:39:43 ◼   ► have gigantic front to back, top to bottom heat sinks.

00:39:48 ◼   ► There's no fans or anything in there.

00:39:49 ◼   ► They're just all giant heat sink fans.

00:39:51 ◼   ► So I put the 580X back in, what the hell,

00:39:54 ◼   ► closed the whole thing back up, turned everything on.

00:39:57 ◼   ► The absurdity of my computer now is that,

00:40:01 ◼   ► if you look at the back of it, I have by my count,

00:40:04 ◼   ► 10 places where I can plug in monitors.

00:40:06 ◼   ► And I can drive 10 monitors, like no problem.

00:40:11 ◼   ► I've got two GPUs in there and I can drive 10 monitors

00:40:14 ◼   ► off this thing.

00:40:15 ◼   ► I think, I don't know, how many 6Ks can I can do?

00:40:17 ◼   ► I think I can do three 6Ks, and then seven 5Ks maybe?

00:40:22 ◼   ► I don't even know.

00:40:24 ◼   ► Anyway, there's an absurd amount of places

00:40:26 ◼   ► where I can plug in monitors,

00:40:28 ◼   ► and I have one monitor to plug into it.

00:40:31 ◼   ► The interesting thing is I can plug that one monitor

00:40:34 ◼   ► into a lot of different places.

00:40:36 ◼   ► My new video card comes with four Thunderbolt ports

00:40:39 ◼   ► on the back, right?

00:40:40 ◼   ► Plus one HDMI.

00:40:42 ◼   ► So I have the four places just on that card

00:40:44 ◼   ► where I could plug in the monitor.

00:40:45 ◼   ► I assume all those ports are the same.

00:40:47 ◼   ► I hope I'd have it in the fast one.

00:40:48 ◼   ► Anyway, then the 580X, interestingly,

00:40:52 ◼   ► has no Thunderbolt ports on the card itself whatsoever.

00:40:55 ◼   ► Just has two HDMI.

00:40:57 ◼   ► And then I have the whatever three or four

00:41:00 ◼   ► or Thunderbolt ports that are part of the little IO card.

00:41:04 ◼   ► And apparently I can plug in my Pro Display XDR

00:41:10 ◼   ► into any of those ports as well.

00:41:12 ◼   ► And when I plug it into those ports,

00:41:14 ◼   ► the W5700X runs the monitor, right?

00:41:19 ◼   ► Even though I'm not plugging into the card,

00:41:23 ◼   ► now with both GPUs installed,

00:41:25 ◼   ► if I stick my monitor into any port

00:41:29 ◼   ► that is not directly on the 580X,

00:41:32 ◼   ► then the 5700X wins and gets the monitor.

00:41:37 ◼   ► Which is confusing to me,

00:41:38 ◼   ► 'cause I was like, what if I want to run my 6K monitor

00:41:40 ◼   ► off the 580X?

00:41:41 ◼   ► Apparently there's no way for me to do that, period.

00:41:44 ◼   ► I can drive other monitors off

00:41:46 ◼   ► by connecting it directly with HDMI.

00:41:48 ◼   ► But anyway, so I'm not quite sure

00:41:52 ◼   ► if I'm gonna keep it in this config.

00:41:53 ◼   ► It's running this way now.

00:41:55 ◼   ► My monitor is actually connected directly to the 5700X

00:41:58 ◼   ► in one of its many Thunderbolt ports.

00:42:01 ◼   ► Seems fine.

00:42:03 ◼   ► Doesn't seem like it's any louder.

00:42:05 ◼   ► I checked the fan speed with a beta version of iStat menu

00:42:09 ◼   ► that shows me fan RPMs.

00:42:10 ◼   ► They don't seem to be any different than they were

00:42:12 ◼   ► when I just had one GPU in there.

00:42:14 ◼   ► - You are running iStat menus?

00:42:18 ◼   ► - I'm not running iStat menus.

00:42:20 ◼   ► What I do with iStat menus is I install it,

00:42:22 ◼   ► check the fan speed, and then I uninstall it,

00:42:24 ◼   ► 'cause that's the only way to really turn it off.

00:42:26 ◼   ► - Oh my god, Jon.

00:42:27 ◼   ► - No, there's a giant switch in their settings thing.

00:42:30 ◼   ► You can turn it all off with a master switch.

00:42:32 ◼   ► - I don't think so.

00:42:34 ◼   ► I can't check 'cause I don't have it installed anymore,

00:42:36 ◼   ► but I'm pretty sure you can't ever actually

00:42:38 ◼   ► turn it off, off, off.

00:42:40 ◼   ► Only uninstalling does it.

00:42:41 ◼   ► Anyway, it's not installed anymore,

00:42:42 ◼   ► but I took screenshots of fan RPMs and graphs and everything

00:42:46 ◼   ► and maybe I'll try it differently with just one thing.

00:42:48 ◼   ► But I'm assuming the 580X is literally doing nothing now,

00:42:52 ◼   ► 'cause it doesn't have any monitors connected to it.

00:42:54 ◼   ► It's not being asked to do anything.

00:42:55 ◼   ► And I'm hoping there'll be some piece of Apple software

00:42:58 ◼   ► video toolbox that Handbrake will use.

00:43:00 ◼   ► I'm hoping something somewhere will use this extra GPU

00:43:03 ◼   ► that I have in my computer.

00:43:03 ◼   ► If not, it's just sitting there

00:43:05 ◼   ► probably wasting electricity, so too bad.

00:43:08 ◼   ► So what did I do with my fancy new graphics card?

00:43:10 ◼   ► I booted into Windows, which was an adventure in itself,

00:43:13 ◼   ► because of course I boot Windows.

00:43:15 ◼   ► It shows the little Windows 10 logo,

00:43:17 ◼   ► you know, the blue teal logo that Windows 10 shows on boot.

00:43:21 ◼   ► Then the little teal logo disappears

00:43:22 ◼   ► and nothing ever appears on my screen ever again.

00:43:24 ◼   ► So that was great.

00:43:25 ◼   ► I used to think, and this used to be true,

00:43:30 ◼   ► that Windows has to handle all sorts

00:43:32 ◼   ► of weird exotic hardware.

00:43:35 ◼   ► So worst case, it'll just like fall back to VGA

00:43:38 ◼   ► or some crap, like, look, I can't make heads or tails

00:43:40 ◼   ► of any of your hardware.

00:43:41 ◼   ► I'm just gonna fall back to the safest of safe, safe modes

00:43:45 ◼   ► and just, you know, just show you something on the screen.

00:43:48 ◼   ► Windows 10, under bootcamp anyway,

00:43:50 ◼   ► does not behave that way.

00:43:51 ◼   ► I actually looked at Microsoft support articles

00:43:53 ◼   ► for like, hey, what do you do if you've got Windows 10

00:43:55 ◼   ► and you just, you turn it on and you get a black screen?

00:43:59 ◼   ► And there's a bunch of solutions for, you know,

00:44:01 ◼   ► here's how you turn on safe mode, booting, yada, yada.

00:44:03 ◼   ► They all require you to be able to see something on the screen

00:44:05 ◼   ► if you just have a black screen, their solution is,

00:44:08 ◼   ► it's a very scary support document.

00:44:09 ◼   ► It's like a, hold down the power button for 10 seconds

00:44:12 ◼   ► and then until your machine reboots.

00:44:15 ◼   ► And then as soon as you see anything on the screen,

00:44:17 ◼   ► hold down the power button again for 10 seconds

00:44:19 ◼   ► and then your machine reboots.

00:44:20 ◼   ► And then as soon as you see anything,

00:44:21 ◼   ► like it makes you like force,

00:44:23 ◼   ► forcibly turn the thing off like three times in a row.

00:44:26 ◼   ► And then supposedly a real Windows computer would be like,

00:44:28 ◼   ► oh, I see you need, you want to be in Windows recovery mode

00:44:31 ◼   ► and then you have a bunch of options.

00:44:32 ◼   ► But despite me doing this very abusive thing to my computer,

00:44:36 ◼   ► it never went into Windows recovery mode.

00:44:39 ◼   ► Like I was holding down the power button

00:44:41 ◼   ► as soon as I saw the Windows 10 logo up here.

00:44:43 ◼   ► All it did was make it angry.

00:44:45 ◼   ► It never actually put me into WinRE

00:44:47 ◼   ► or Windows recovery environment or the hell it is.

00:44:50 ◼   ► So that didn't work for me.

00:44:51 ◼   ► So then I had to use the good old fallback,

00:44:53 ◼   ► which is connect a crappier monitor

00:44:55 ◼   ► through a different interface.

00:44:56 ◼   ► So I connected my 4K monitor through HDMI,

00:44:58 ◼   ► lo and behold, that worked.

00:45:00 ◼   ► Then I downloaded AMD's new bootcamp drivers

00:45:02 ◼   ► for my newly installed GPU,

00:45:04 ◼   ► which again, I'm kind of surprised Windows

00:45:06 ◼   ► didn't like find for me or didn't fall back

00:45:09 ◼   ► to some default graphics driver.

00:45:10 ◼   ► Like just get me to the point where I can launch

00:45:12 ◼   ► a web browser and do it myself, but no, that didn't work.

00:45:14 ◼   ► So I installed the new drivers,

00:45:16 ◼   ► which is nice that AMD had on their site,

00:45:17 ◼   ► hey, here's the new drivers for, you know,

00:45:21 ◼   ► the newly released 5,700X,

00:45:25 ◼   ► W5700X that you have in your computer.

00:45:27 ◼   ► And it's specially designed for bootcamp, yada yada.

00:45:30 ◼   ► So that's all that problems and I can boot into Windows.

00:45:32 ◼   ► And why was I putting into Windows?

00:45:34 ◼   ► So I could play games.

00:45:35 ◼   ► And of course, what game do I care about?

00:45:36 ◼   ► I want to play Destiny.

00:45:38 ◼   ► I played Destiny, you know, through Steam

00:45:43 ◼   ► that I already had installed and everything.

00:45:46 ◼   ► And the answer to the question of whether it can run

00:45:49 ◼   ► Destiny 2 at full 6K resolution with all settings

00:45:53 ◼   ► on high at 60 frames per second with this card is no,

00:45:55 ◼   ► it cannot.

00:45:58 ◼   ► It is above the capabilities of this card.

00:46:00 ◼   ► It's okay, you get like 30ish frames per second or whatever.

00:46:04 ◼   ► So I was kind of sad to not be able to do that.

00:46:06 ◼   ► This is, you know, the best MPX module

00:46:10 ◼   ► that I can get for less than two grand

00:46:12 ◼   ► and it still can't quite hit 60 with the highest settings.

00:46:14 ◼   ► - Now, how does that compare?

00:46:16 ◼   ► Like, I don't follow the PC GPU market that well.

00:46:19 ◼   ► Like, suppose you had like, you know, a 2080, 1080?

00:46:22 ◼   ► What's the big--

00:46:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, that could definitely do it.

00:46:25 ◼   ► - Okay, so like, and so what does one of those cost?

00:46:28 ◼   ► Like 400 bucks?

00:46:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, something like that.

00:46:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, all right, so--

00:46:32 ◼   ► - Or maybe 600 if you get a fancy one, I don't know.

00:46:34 ◼   ► - Okay, so basically what you're saying is that this

00:46:37 ◼   ► thousand dollar, you know, workstationish card

00:46:39 ◼   ► for the Mac Pro cannot achieve gaming performance

00:46:43 ◼   ► that a $400 gaming card could.

00:46:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, although I don't think that gaming card

00:46:47 ◼   ► could drive the Pro Display XDR at native res, period.

00:46:49 ◼   ► 'Cause the only interface to the Pro Display XDR

00:46:51 ◼   ► is Thunderbolt 3 and they don't have Thunderbolt 3 out.

00:46:53 ◼   ► So that's always the problem.

00:46:54 ◼   ► Like, that's why I'm in this situation

00:46:56 ◼   ► is I wanna drive this big, fancy screen.

00:46:58 ◼   ► So anyway, I turned it down to 4K,

00:47:00 ◼   ► which is perfectly fine for Destiny.

00:47:02 ◼   ► Like, honestly, the assets in the game

00:47:04 ◼   ► probably don't stand up to much more than 4K.

00:47:06 ◼   ► So I turned it down to 4K and then I turned

00:47:09 ◼   ► all the settings to max except for a few of them.

00:47:11 ◼   ► So it's like a hybrid of the max setting

00:47:13 ◼   ► and I turned to like the foliage draw distances on high

00:47:16 ◼   ► instead of highest or whatever.

00:47:18 ◼   ► And that's locked at 60 frames per second, so.

00:47:20 ◼   ► - Oh, that's pretty close.

00:47:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's really close.

00:47:23 ◼   ► So it's just like, you know what it is.

00:47:25 ◼   ► Like with PC games, the super duper ultra settings,

00:47:27 ◼   ► no one should ever run them

00:47:28 ◼   ► because you cannot really discern any visual distance

00:47:32 ◼   ► between the super ultra settings

00:47:33 ◼   ► and the merely high settings.

00:47:35 ◼   ► So I have everything on high

00:47:37 ◼   ► with half the settings on highest at 4K in HDR.

00:47:41 ◼   ► And it looks and plays great.

00:47:42 ◼   ► Like, especially the HDR with all the, you know,

00:47:44 ◼   ► Destiny's got all sorts of lighting effects for explosions

00:47:47 ◼   ► and space magic and all sorts of stuff like that.

00:47:50 ◼   ► It looks amazing.

00:47:50 ◼   ► Like, it's really very impressive, you know,

00:47:53 ◼   ► 'cause I haven't really done HDR gaming before.

00:47:54 ◼   ► So it's very impressive, very sharp, very fast.

00:47:58 ◼   ► And the first Crucible match I played,

00:48:01 ◼   ► I ended up randomly landing on a team with Mtasht,

00:48:05 ◼   ► who is a semi-famous Destiny YouTuber/streamer.

00:48:10 ◼   ► And we both had crap games and that was exciting.

00:48:14 ◼   ► He only got three more kills than me and our team lost.

00:48:17 ◼   ► I did much worse than he did, but seriously,

00:48:19 ◼   ► he should be getting way more

00:48:20 ◼   ► than three more kills than me in a match.

00:48:23 ◼   ► So that's my video card stuff.

00:48:27 ◼   ► So far, so good.

00:48:28 ◼   ► I'll continue to investigate the weirdness,

00:48:32 ◼   ► see if I can actually get the 580X to run my screen

00:48:34 ◼   ► if I wanted to, because that's the other thing

00:48:35 ◼   ► I was thinking about.

00:48:36 ◼   ► It's like, well, if I'm not playing games

00:48:38 ◼   ► or I'm not using something GPU intensive,

00:48:41 ◼   ► remember the 580X doesn't have display stream compression

00:48:45 ◼   ► and the fancy new video card does,

00:48:48 ◼   ► which means that my USB ports in the back of my monitor

00:48:50 ◼   ► are now faster.

00:48:51 ◼   ► Now USB three with the new video card

00:48:53 ◼   ► or the USB two with the old one.

00:48:55 ◼   ► So, so far so good.

00:48:58 ◼   ► For the most part, I'm happy with it.

00:48:59 ◼   ► I'm still debating my options,

00:49:02 ◼   ► but I had some good fun in Destiny.

00:49:03 ◼   ► Oh, and I re-signed up to Apple Arcade

00:49:05 ◼   ► just so I could play through Sayonara Wild Hearts at 6K.

00:49:09 ◼   ► That was really nice.

00:49:11 ◼   ► - How is Apple Arcade?

00:49:12 ◼   ► Are we following that at all?

00:49:13 ◼   ► Like, is there anything good on there that like since launch?

00:49:15 ◼   ► - I've never played it.

00:49:16 ◼   ► - Most of the games, like if you look through the games,

00:49:18 ◼   ► there are no bad games.

00:49:19 ◼   ► The game, all the games are like, this is a good quality

00:49:22 ◼   ► implementation of this type of game.

00:49:24 ◼   ► The question is, are you into that kind of game?

00:49:26 ◼   ► And there's a wide variety of games.

00:49:28 ◼   ► They're not, you know, this is your usual like racing games

00:49:30 ◼   ► and platforming games.

00:49:31 ◼   ► There's lots of very interesting games.

00:49:33 ◼   ► I think that is, it's a bargain.

00:49:35 ◼   ► Like for $5 a month, you get access to a pretty big

00:49:39 ◼   ► collection of games that are mostly pretty good.

00:49:41 ◼   ► And remember, none of them have an app purchases

00:49:43 ◼   ► or anything like that.

00:49:44 ◼   ► I think it's a great deal, but it depends.

00:49:46 ◼   ► You have to know what kind of gaming lifestyle

00:49:49 ◼   ► you are leading.

00:49:50 ◼   ► I am at this point mostly in a monogamous gaming lifestyle

00:49:53 ◼   ► where I'm just playing Destiny.

00:49:54 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:49:55 ◼   ► You know, I'm just waiting for, you know,

00:49:57 ◼   ► Last of Us Part II and a few other sort of flagship

00:50:00 ◼   ► once every year and a half type games

00:50:02 ◼   ► that I will divert myself into.

00:50:04 ◼   ► But if that's the type of gamer you are,

00:50:07 ◼   ► maybe Apple Arcade doesn't make sense for you.

00:50:08 ◼   ► But if you graze or if you're just like,

00:50:10 ◼   ► ah, I'm just in the mood to see what a game is,

00:50:12 ◼   ► like I just did today.

00:50:13 ◼   ► Hey, I wanted to try some games on my new fancy GPU

00:50:18 ◼   ► on my Mac, where do you find Mac games?

00:50:20 ◼   ► Basically nowhere or Apple Arcade.

00:50:23 ◼   ► And I went to Apple Arcade and guess what?

00:50:24 ◼   ► There's a ton of Mac games 'cause Apple Arcade

00:50:27 ◼   ► forces these people to make their games run on the Mac.

00:50:29 ◼   ► And the games are all pretty good.

00:50:31 ◼   ► Like it is a lot like the consoles where Apple has a hand

00:50:36 ◼   ► in selecting and managing the games that appear

00:50:39 ◼   ► on the platform.

00:50:40 ◼   ► And I've played, you know, maybe 10, 12 Apple Arcade games,

00:50:44 ◼   ► you know, when I launched.

00:50:45 ◼   ► And today I just had the urge to play one again.

00:50:47 ◼   ► You know, I ended up going to Sign our Wild Hearts

00:50:49 ◼   ► just because I hadn't played it in ages

00:50:50 ◼   ► and I really loved that game.

00:50:51 ◼   ► Five bucks, five bucks.

00:50:53 ◼   ► And now it wasn't five bucks for me to play that one game.

00:50:55 ◼   ► I have access to the entire library

00:50:56 ◼   ► until the end of the month again.

00:50:57 ◼   ► So I think it's a good deal if you are the type of person

00:51:02 ◼   ► who doesn't just play one or two games all the time.

00:51:06 ◼   ► It seems that a lot of people in our circles

00:51:09 ◼   ► have been falling more into the, if not monogamous,

00:51:13 ◼   ► then, you know, sort of serial monogamous type of strategy

00:51:16 ◼   ► where it's like, oh, everyone's playing Animal Crossing

00:51:19 ◼   ► or, you know, the Armit family is playing Minecraft,

00:51:22 ◼   ► you know, or like rather than sort of dedicating a week

00:51:26 ◼   ► or two to one game and then a week or two to another game,

00:51:29 ◼   ► you know, something like that.

00:51:30 ◼   ► But I think it's more of a thing that you do

00:51:32 ◼   ► when you were a kid, 'cause you basically burn through a game

00:51:34 ◼   ► in a week or two or finish it.

00:51:37 ◼   ► Whereas now I think most adults are looking for like

00:51:41 ◼   ► a lifestyle game where you, if you have any gaming time,

00:51:44 ◼   ► you know exactly where you're gonna spend it

00:51:46 ◼   ► and then you have some fun and then you set it aside

00:51:47 ◼   ► and you come back to it.

00:51:49 ◼   ► - The thing that has me concerned about Apple Arcade

00:51:51 ◼   ► is that everyone has basically said

00:51:54 ◼   ► that exact same thing about it.

00:51:55 ◼   ► Oh yeah, the games are nice, they're, you know, good games.

00:51:58 ◼   ► But I'm not hearing about many specific games.

00:52:00 ◼   ► In fact, I haven't heard of a single specific game

00:52:03 ◼   ► after the launch that everyone says like,

00:52:05 ◼   ► oh, you gotta play this one game.

00:52:07 ◼   ► - Well, that's because most of the people you know

00:52:09 ◼   ► are playing some single game.

00:52:11 ◼   ► You certainly heard a lot about Animal Crossing, right?

00:52:13 ◼   ► Lots of people are just playing Animal Crossing.

00:52:15 ◼   ► They're not playing anything else, right?

00:52:17 ◼   ► Sayonara Wild Hearts by its nature is a short game

00:52:19 ◼   ► where it's not like an ongoing type of thing.

00:52:21 ◼   ► It just is a certain number of levels

00:52:23 ◼   ► and you play them and you're done with it.

00:52:24 ◼   ► So you heard about that at launch,

00:52:25 ◼   ► but now everyone has played it.

00:52:27 ◼   ► There are, I think a lot of the games in there are like that.

00:52:30 ◼   ► You can play them and finish them.

00:52:32 ◼   ► And once you've played them and finished them, you're done.

00:52:33 ◼   ► The thing that, the key value proposition for Apple Arcade

00:52:37 ◼   ► is you don't buy a bunch of individual games.

00:52:40 ◼   ► You pay $5 and get access to all of them.

00:52:42 ◼   ► So your value for that $5,

00:52:44 ◼   ► if you finish one game,

00:52:47 ◼   ► you've got your $5 worth for the month, right?

00:52:50 ◼   ► If you try 12 other games,

00:52:52 ◼   ► you've gotten way more than your $5 worth, right?

00:52:54 ◼   ► So you just have to know,

00:52:55 ◼   ► is that a thing that you're ever gonna do?

00:52:56 ◼   ► Or are you just gonna play one game?

00:52:58 ◼   ► I just paid $5 just to have a single play through

00:53:01 ◼   ► an album, whatever it's called, the album mode

00:53:04 ◼   ► or the mode where it just plays straight through

00:53:06 ◼   ► that pauses between levels.

00:53:08 ◼   ► That's worth $5 to me right there.

00:53:10 ◼   ► I pay similar amount to Rent Movies from iTunes

00:53:12 ◼   ► and play them for the same amount

00:53:13 ◼   ► and watch it for the same amount of time.

00:53:14 ◼   ► I just play this.

00:53:16 ◼   ► I just gotta remember to cancel

00:53:17 ◼   ► 'cause I'm probably not gonna play any of those games

00:53:18 ◼   ► 'cause I'm too busy playing Destiny.

00:53:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:53:21 ◼   ► - I will say we finally started watching

00:53:24 ◼   ► the morning show on Apple TV+.

00:53:26 ◼   ► This is the first Apple TV+ show that I've actually watched.

00:53:30 ◼   ► And it's pretty good, I'm actually enjoying it.

00:53:33 ◼   ► - You should try For All Mankind after that.

00:53:35 ◼   ► - Yep, agreed.

00:53:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's probably next on the list.

00:53:37 ◼   ► Yeah, here I am coming very late to everything.

00:53:40 ◼   ► Yeah, I finally watched Apple TV+.

00:53:43 ◼   ► And yeah, it's not bad.

00:53:44 ◼   ► - I just started watching Defending Jacob,

00:53:47 ◼   ► which is notable because it is shot,

00:53:50 ◼   ► ostensibly shot in and around where I live.

00:53:54 ◼   ► And it's fun to watch as a resident to say,

00:53:56 ◼   ► that's not, I don't know where they're actually shooting it,

00:53:58 ◼   ► but like, that's not where I live.

00:54:00 ◼   ► Lots of fake signs, lots of made up names.

00:54:03 ◼   ► It's kind of a depressing show about murder

00:54:06 ◼   ► and school aged children or anyway.

00:54:08 ◼   ► So maybe not your cup of tea,

00:54:10 ◼   ► but I started watching that just for the hometown aspect

00:54:13 ◼   ► of it and because I remember when a bunch of roads around me

00:54:15 ◼   ► were closed down for filming.

00:54:17 ◼   ► I had heard that the stars of the show,

00:54:20 ◼   ► the star of the show is Chris Evans and Kerry Russell,

00:54:24 ◼   ► maybe, anyway.

00:54:25 ◼   ► Captain America, yeah, I had heard that he wasn't going

00:54:28 ◼   ► to be here, so don't bother coming to the set

00:54:30 ◼   ► 'cause Chris Evans isn't gonna be here.

00:54:32 ◼   ► They're just shooting some other scenes or whatever,

00:54:33 ◼   ► which is either it's a lie or they composited him in

00:54:37 ◼   ► because I saw some scenes shot and like,

00:54:38 ◼   ► I know where that is and there's Chris Evans standing there.

00:54:41 ◼   ► I could have gone by and waved to him, but I didn't.

00:54:43 ◼   ► That was a while ago, but again,

00:54:45 ◼   ► it could have been green screen.

00:54:46 ◼   ► It's really hard for me to tell.

00:54:46 ◼   ► I could have Todd look at it and tell me,

00:54:48 ◼   ► is Chris Evans actually there?

00:54:49 ◼   ► They just put him in.

00:54:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, I thought Morning Show was good.

00:54:55 ◼   ► I thought For All Mankind was even better.

00:54:57 ◼   ► And those are the only two I've tried,

00:54:59 ◼   ► but I enjoyed them both.

00:55:00 ◼   ► - I watched See, which is a little bit silly,

00:55:02 ◼   ► but I feel like that kind of thing, it's fine.

00:55:05 ◼   ► - Let's keep ourselves in MacPro Corner.

00:55:07 ◼   ► Do you want to tell me about your wheels and feet

00:55:09 ◼   ► and heights and angles and things?

00:55:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, this strategy of putting wheels on the front

00:55:14 ◼   ► and feet on the back or vice versa,

00:55:16 ◼   ► so that you have something that you can wheel,

00:55:18 ◼   ► but that doesn't go anywhere until you pick up

00:55:19 ◼   ► the feety part.

00:55:21 ◼   ► Jeremy Cox did some measurements based on stuff

00:55:24 ◼   ► on the product pages.

00:55:26 ◼   ► And apparently the wheels are about an inch taller

00:55:28 ◼   ► than the feet.

00:55:29 ◼   ► So if you were to do that,

00:55:31 ◼   ► you'd have roughly a four degree slope,

00:55:32 ◼   ► but more importantly, it would look and feel awful

00:55:34 ◼   ► because the feet on the MacPro were totally flat.

00:55:37 ◼   ► So they'd be on an angle just touching at the edge.

00:55:39 ◼   ► So yeah, you'd have to make an adjustment.

00:55:42 ◼   ► You need basically one inch heels on your feet

00:55:44 ◼   ► to get a level MacPro.

00:55:47 ◼   ► - Yeah, I love the illustration that they provided too.

00:55:49 ◼   ► We'll have to make that the chapter art or something.

00:55:51 ◼   ► It's really cool to see like,

00:55:52 ◼   ► oh yeah, that would be way too much,

00:55:54 ◼   ► like way too big of a slope.

00:55:56 ◼   ► - Indeed, all right, so we have some feedback

00:55:58 ◼   ► about the iPad Magic Keyboard.

00:56:01 ◼   ► Matt Berkler writes that they just tried it out again,

00:56:04 ◼   ► was actually impressed how hard they could bang

00:56:06 ◼   ► on the space bar and provided a video.

00:56:09 ◼   ► And apparently this thing is like very precariously perched

00:56:14 ◼   ► with only the iPad portion on a table

00:56:19 ◼   ► and the entire keyboard is dangling in thin air,

00:56:22 ◼   ► but because of physics and counter levers and whatnot,

00:56:26 ◼   ► it's somehow, and I guess all the weight is in the back,

00:56:28 ◼   ► so it's somehow staying afloat.

00:56:29 ◼   ► But this, oh, this is stressing me out just watching this.

00:56:32 ◼   ► - Yes, but I think the video, you know, be impressed,

00:56:35 ◼   ► like wow, how stable.

00:56:36 ◼   ► What all this is doing is emphasizing exactly

00:56:38 ◼   ► how lopsided the weight distribution of this thing is.

00:56:40 ◼   ► Like it is so heavily back weighted again,

00:56:43 ◼   ► which is why they can't tilt the thing back any farther.

00:56:46 ◼   ► All of the weight starts basically where the keyboard ends.

00:56:50 ◼   ► And that's why you can get away

00:56:51 ◼   ► with what's shown in this video.

00:56:52 ◼   ► You should definitely watch it to realize

00:56:53 ◼   ► exactly how, you know, back weighted it is.

00:56:56 ◼   ► It's not tippy, it's not gonna tip over backwards,

00:57:00 ◼   ► but all of the weight is on that end,

00:57:02 ◼   ► which is, you know, don't try this with your laptop

00:57:04 ◼   ► because you will have very different results

00:57:06 ◼   ► and be very sad very quickly.

00:57:08 ◼   ► And yeah, so this is, it was not clear.

00:57:10 ◼   ► This is not the weight distribution

00:57:11 ◼   ► that you want for a laptop.

00:57:13 ◼   ► You would rather have the weight low and flat to the ground,

00:57:16 ◼   ► like in a car or like in Marco's car.

00:57:18 ◼   ► A big, all the big heavy batteries is at the bottom,

00:57:22 ◼   ► low and wide, right?

00:57:24 ◼   ► You don't, if Marco's battery was on the roof of his car,

00:57:27 ◼   ► it would be like this keyboard stand.

00:57:29 ◼   ► - All right, John Not-Sercuso writes in that alternators,

00:57:33 ◼   ► guess what, they do generate alternating current.

00:57:36 ◼   ► They're used in cars because they're smaller

00:57:37 ◼   ► and more efficient, thank you to Tesla,

00:57:39 ◼   ► as in Nikola Tesla, and a simple rectifier circuit

00:57:42 ◼   ► converts AC to DC for the battery, et cetera.

00:57:44 ◼   ► A DC generator would be larger, heavier,

00:57:46 ◼   ► and less efficient to lower PMs.

00:57:47 ◼   ► And then Craig Weber also adds a generator

00:57:51 ◼   ► produces DC directly through what's effectively

00:57:53 ◼   ► a mechanical bridge rectifier, but less efficiently.

00:57:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, so cars, all the stuff inside your car

00:57:59 ◼   ► is running on DC, but your alternator's making AC briefly

00:58:02 ◼   ► before it's converted.

00:58:03 ◼   ► - Indeed, and then King T. Bird writes,

00:58:06 ◼   ► always ground to the alternator bracket

00:58:08 ◼   ► or a similar point on the engine

00:58:09 ◼   ► as that will bypass the battery,

00:58:10 ◼   ► this is in the context of jumping in a car,

00:58:12 ◼   ► to the same ground the starter uses.

00:58:14 ◼   ► Trust me, it makes a huge difference

00:58:15 ◼   ► in the current delivered without passing

00:58:17 ◼   ► through a dead battery, especially a shot battery.

00:58:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I hadn't thought about like

00:58:20 ◼   ► if your battery's totally fried.

00:58:21 ◼   ► Obviously mine wasn't totally fried.

00:58:22 ◼   ► I was able to start it by going through the battery.

00:58:24 ◼   ► But again, today I actually replaced the battery.

00:58:27 ◼   ► I looked for, I still didn't go to the point

00:58:30 ◼   ► where I looked in the owner's manual.

00:58:31 ◼   ► I was looking for that part.

00:58:32 ◼   ► But while I had the engine bay open,

00:58:33 ◼   ► I was like, is there some post

00:58:35 ◼   ► where it wants me to ground in here?

00:58:36 ◼   ► Is there something?

00:58:38 ◼   ► I could see a couple of nuts that, in theory,

00:58:40 ◼   ► could be used for it, but nothing labeled

00:58:42 ◼   ► as like a grounding spot.

00:58:44 ◼   ► And practically speaking, my two little clampy thingies,

00:58:48 ◼   ► if the positive one is on the positive,

00:58:50 ◼   ► the negative one doesn't reach very far.

00:58:52 ◼   ► It's not like I can go across to the other corner

00:58:54 ◼   ► of the engine and find something to clamp onto.

00:58:55 ◼   ► So if there's some post for me to put it,

00:58:58 ◼   ► I still couldn't find it.

00:58:59 ◼   ► Oh, and by the way, when I did the replacing my battery

00:59:01 ◼   ► today, this is the first time I've ever successfully done

00:59:04 ◼   ► this thing that I always think about doing.

00:59:06 ◼   ► I don't even know if this is true of modern cars,

00:59:07 ◼   ► but I used to be annoyed with my older cars

00:59:10 ◼   ► that when I replaced the battery,

00:59:12 ◼   ► the car would forget all its settings,

00:59:14 ◼   ► 'cause there's no V-RAM, essentially.

00:59:16 ◼   ► And all your radio presets would be gone,

00:59:18 ◼   ► and all your preferences and settings,

00:59:19 ◼   ► and everything would just be gone.

00:59:20 ◼   ► And it annoyed me, 'cause I'm like,

00:59:21 ◼   ► I don't remember when I set this thing up

00:59:23 ◼   ► six years ago, right?

00:59:25 ◼   ► So this time I said, I'm not gonna let that happen.

00:59:26 ◼   ► I don't know for a fact whether my car has NVRAM.

00:59:29 ◼   ► I'm hoping it does, 'cause it's more modern,

00:59:31 ◼   ► but I don't wanna take the risk.

00:59:32 ◼   ► So I very carefully used my battery charger

00:59:35 ◼   ► and clamped it onto the little thingies

00:59:36 ◼   ► and then disconnected them from the battery,

00:59:38 ◼   ► keeping current flowing through the car

00:59:41 ◼   ► while I swapped out the battery.

00:59:43 ◼   ► Then I put in the new battery and very carefully

00:59:44 ◼   ► put the little things over and screwed them on

00:59:46 ◼   ► and then disconnected it.

00:59:47 ◼   ► And as far as I can tell, everything worked

00:59:49 ◼   ► and I didn't lose any info and I have a shiny new battery.

00:59:53 ◼   ► Oh, and speaking of my battery,

00:59:55 ◼   ► I came with a little round sticker on it

00:59:57 ◼   ► that says 3/20 on the top.

00:59:59 ◼   ► And I don't know what that is supposed to be.

01:00:02 ◼   ► It's probably March 2020, right?

01:00:06 ◼   ► Maybe it's a sticker that says like,

01:00:07 ◼   ► that's when this battery was manufactured or something.

01:00:10 ◼   ► I don't know what the purpose of the sticker

01:00:12 ◼   ► is supposed to be.

01:00:13 ◼   ► But the reason I noticed the sticker at all

01:00:15 ◼   ► is because it was like a reddish sticker,

01:00:17 ◼   ► but there was a little crescent moon of a green sticker

01:00:19 ◼   ► poking out from underneath it.

01:00:21 ◼   ► So I peeled off the red sticker

01:00:23 ◼   ► and underneath the red sticker was a green sticker

01:00:25 ◼   ► that said 1/20.

01:00:27 ◼   ► So I just put the 3/20 sticker next to it.

01:00:32 ◼   ► So now my battery has two stickers on it.

01:00:34 ◼   ► At least the thing underneath didn't say like 4/17.

01:00:39 ◼   ► So pretty sure my battery's fine.

01:00:42 ◼   ► Car starts right up, battery's fully charged.

01:00:44 ◼   ► Everything's great.

01:00:45 ◼   ► Go team.

01:00:48 ◼   ► - All right, we didn't get a chance to talk

01:00:49 ◼   ► about this last week,

01:00:50 ◼   ► but Apple has released a contact tracing,

01:00:52 ◼   ► I mean, exposure notification in, what is this?

01:00:55 ◼   ► iOS 13 five, something like that, whatever came out today.

01:00:59 ◼   ► - 13.5.

01:01:01 ◼   ► - And so there's some stuff in settings

01:01:03 ◼   ► that will allow you to turn on or off

01:01:06 ◼   ► COVID-19 exposure notifications.

01:01:08 ◼   ► And that is the thing where the iPhone will,

01:01:12 ◼   ► in the background,

01:01:13 ◼   ► it will communicate via Bluetooth low energy

01:01:15 ◼   ► and kind of, if I understand things right,

01:01:16 ◼   ► kind of say I'm here and I am code 1234

01:01:20 ◼   ► and I'm oversimplifying here.

01:01:21 ◼   ► And then it will listen to other phones saying I'm here

01:01:23 ◼   ► and I'm code 5678.

01:01:25 ◼   ► And it will keep a kind of database or tally

01:01:29 ◼   ► of who it's seen for a certain duration of time

01:01:32 ◼   ► so that if a central health authority finds out

01:01:35 ◼   ► that oh, 5678 has coronavirus,

01:01:39 ◼   ► you can look up all the people

01:01:41 ◼   ► who have been tested positive

01:01:43 ◼   ► and compare who you've seen with who is tested positive

01:01:47 ◼   ► and say, oh, I was around them at some point,

01:01:49 ◼   ► I should probably self-isolate, quarantine,

01:01:52 ◼   ► and then maybe even get tested.

01:01:54 ◼   ► This, at a glance, seems pretty solid.

01:01:58 ◼   ► I'm pleased with what I've seen.

01:02:00 ◼   ► To be fair, I haven't looked into this deeply.

01:02:02 ◼   ► It seems like in order to write an app

01:02:04 ◼   ► that leverages this API, you need a certain,

01:02:06 ◼   ► not certification, what's the word I'm looking for?

01:02:09 ◼   ► - Entitlement. - Entitlement.

01:02:10 ◼   ► Thank you, yep.

01:02:11 ◼   ► You need a certain entitlement,

01:02:12 ◼   ► which presumably Apple will not be giving out willy-nilly.

01:02:15 ◼   ► But I don't know, at a glance, this looks pretty good.

01:02:18 ◼   ► Marco, thoughts about this?

01:02:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, contact tracing or exposure notification

01:02:25 ◼   ► is a pretty important part of controlling a pandemic

01:02:28 ◼   ► and dealing with it, and so the need for this is very high.

01:02:32 ◼   ► The fact that Apple and Google work together

01:02:35 ◼   ► to develop a standard that both Google-powered

01:02:39 ◼   ► Android phones and all of the iPhones

01:02:42 ◼   ► could both use and talk to each other is really remarkable.

01:02:46 ◼   ► And so just that alone, the fact that they work together

01:02:49 ◼   ► pretty quickly and develop this thing

01:02:51 ◼   ► that they could both swallow and are willing to do

01:02:53 ◼   ► for all the people out there who have either platform,

01:02:57 ◼   ► that's really impressive.

01:02:58 ◼   ► And if you look at the actual design of the system,

01:03:02 ◼   ► obviously you would think, all right,

01:03:03 ◼   ► well, if the phones are gonna be passively

01:03:06 ◼   ► trading identifiers with each other all the time,

01:03:08 ◼   ► and then they'll keep some kind of history

01:03:10 ◼   ► of what other identifiers they've seen,

01:03:12 ◼   ► and then they'll be able to notify,

01:03:14 ◼   ► oh, I've seen identifiers 10, 15, and 20,

01:03:17 ◼   ► so notify them 'cause I now have the virus,

01:03:19 ◼   ► they need to know that they were exposed to me,

01:03:22 ◼   ► you would think this would be a privacy nightmare.

01:03:25 ◼   ► But the way they've designed the system

01:03:26 ◼   ► is both simple and pretty clever

01:03:29 ◼   ► to basically use a bunch of short-lived random tokens,

01:03:33 ◼   ► and they're all stored locally on device,

01:03:36 ◼   ► there's no real persistence, no persistent identifiers,

01:03:41 ◼   ► no real tracking possible beyond a 15-minute window

01:03:45 ◼   ► of any one particular identifier.

01:03:48 ◼   ► So it's actually, if you look at the system,

01:03:50 ◼   ► I can't see any problems with the system as designed,

01:03:54 ◼   ► at least any big problems,

01:03:55 ◼   ► any kind of massive privacy violation

01:03:58 ◼   ► or creepy tracking potential.

01:04:01 ◼   ► They've done a really good job.

01:04:04 ◼   ► I suspect, oftentimes what happens with standard bodies

01:04:07 ◼   ► or tech standards is Apple basically designs the whole thing

01:04:12 ◼   ► and then hands it to the other party and is like,

01:04:16 ◼   ► this is now our standard.

01:04:17 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:04:18 ◼   ► That happens a lot, from what I hear,

01:04:21 ◼   ► and things like USB-C.

01:04:22 ◼   ► So apparently, Apple frequently does stuff like that,

01:04:27 ◼   ► and it wouldn't surprise me if that's what happened here,

01:04:30 ◼   ► 'cause this is a very Appley kind of system,

01:04:34 ◼   ► and I can't imagine Google coming up with the system

01:04:37 ◼   ► if they were at the drawing board.

01:04:40 ◼   ► So ultimately, it looks very good.

01:04:43 ◼   ► It isn't out to the public yet.

01:04:46 ◼   ► There are a bunch of complicated questions of things like,

01:04:50 ◼   ► should it be enabled by default?

01:04:52 ◼   ► Like, should your phone be broadcasting

01:04:53 ◼   ► these identifiers by default?

01:04:56 ◼   ► And there's certainly a slight privacy angle to that,

01:05:00 ◼   ► but I think the system is so well designed

01:05:04 ◼   ► that I would argue that yes, it should be on by default,

01:05:07 ◼   ► because the privacy implication is so tiny,

01:05:10 ◼   ► like the scope of potential privacy risk

01:05:13 ◼   ► is so small and so minor,

01:05:15 ◼   ► and if it's not on by default for everyone,

01:05:19 ◼   ► it's far less effective.

01:05:21 ◼   ► You might as well not even do it if it isn't on by default.

01:05:24 ◼   ► So I'm hoping they end up with that.

01:05:27 ◼   ► I think that is the plan right now.

01:05:29 ◼   ► Maybe there'll be some kind of one of those

01:05:30 ◼   ► setup wizard screens when you first boot up 13.5

01:05:34 ◼   ► that it might ask you and just be defaulted to yes,

01:05:38 ◼   ► but hopefully it is totally up and up

01:05:42 ◼   ► and on by default and everything else,

01:05:47 ◼   ► and hopefully the same applies

01:05:48 ◼   ► to the Android platform as well.

01:05:50 ◼   ► There is certainly the question of like,

01:05:52 ◼   ► how the heck Android phones are getting

01:05:54 ◼   ► a large-scale software update

01:05:55 ◼   ► in any kind of reasonable amount of time.

01:05:57 ◼   ► I assume, I don't know anything about this,

01:05:59 ◼   ► but I assume that this is part

01:06:01 ◼   ► of the Google Play services thing,

01:06:02 ◼   ► where Google kind of has this library of stuff

01:06:05 ◼   ► they can update on a much more frequent basis

01:06:08 ◼   ► compared to the actual OS of all these phones

01:06:10 ◼   ► that never get updated, so it's most likely there.

01:06:13 ◼   ► So yeah, hopefully this is,

01:06:16 ◼   ► hopefully this system can get deployed soon

01:06:18 ◼   ► and enabled by default on a lot of different phones,

01:06:21 ◼   ► because that would really be quite effective

01:06:24 ◼   ► at achieving this.

01:06:26 ◼   ► There's all sorts of problems

01:06:27 ◼   ► that they have clearly considered or been made aware of

01:06:30 ◼   ► and addressed in some way, like for instance,

01:06:33 ◼   ► you wouldn't want to be able to just spam everybody

01:06:36 ◼   ► by saying like, "I got the virus, I got the virus,"

01:06:37 ◼   ► even if you didn't, and be able to spam all the people

01:06:40 ◼   ► who were near you for the last week or whatever

01:06:44 ◼   ► and scare them all or have them all go

01:06:47 ◼   ► to get tested unnecessarily or whatever.

01:06:49 ◼   ► So they've thought about stuff like,

01:06:50 ◼   ► okay, only public health authorities will be able to notify

01:06:54 ◼   ► or to be able to submit the thing that says,

01:06:56 ◼   ► this person has it for sure, stuff like that.

01:06:59 ◼   ► So there's all sorts of concerns

01:07:00 ◼   ► that they've been seemingly addressing pretty well.

01:07:04 ◼   ► Some countries, there was this whole drama

01:07:05 ◼   ► with certain countries, I think France was one of them,

01:07:09 ◼   ► where they didn't want this kind of approach

01:07:11 ◼   ► that was totally passive.

01:07:13 ◼   ► They wanted only an app that the user would be launching

01:07:16 ◼   ► and keeping in the foreground and keeping their phone on

01:07:19 ◼   ► with the screen on all the time for it to work,

01:07:22 ◼   ► and it's like, no, that's not going to do anything.

01:07:25 ◼   ► That's a no-go.

01:07:27 ◼   ► So, although most of those countries seem

01:07:30 ◼   ► to be coming around that this is actually

01:07:32 ◼   ► the better way to do it.

01:07:33 ◼   ► So anyway, from what I can see so far,

01:07:35 ◼   ► it looks really good.

01:07:37 ◼   ► If you want to hear more detail about how it works

01:07:39 ◼   ► or read more detail about how it works,

01:07:40 ◼   ► there's a good article on NS Hipster

01:07:41 ◼   ► about basically the whole API, what it does,

01:07:44 ◼   ► how it works, why it's important,

01:07:46 ◼   ► why it's pretty safe privacy-wise.

01:07:49 ◼   ► So we'll link to that from the show notes.

01:07:50 ◼   ► And otherwise, I think it's a great thing

01:07:52 ◼   ► that they're doing.

01:07:53 ◼   ► I hope it gets deployed widely and quickly.

01:07:57 ◼   ► - Like a lot of the, when we talk about security

01:08:00 ◼   ► in other non-virus-related contexts,

01:08:02 ◼   ► where we're talking about the classic trade-off

01:08:04 ◼   ► between convenience and security,

01:08:06 ◼   ► lots of stuff that has to do with security is inconvenient.

01:08:09 ◼   ► You just want to get to the thing.

01:08:10 ◼   ► You don't want to have to say, okay,

01:08:12 ◼   ► to a bunch of permission dialogue boxes.

01:08:13 ◼   ► You don't have to enter a bunch of passwords.

01:08:15 ◼   ► You don't want your password to have to be long

01:08:17 ◼   ► and complicated.

01:08:18 ◼   ► Basically, security and convenience are opposing forces,

01:08:21 ◼   ► and you have to trade one for the other.

01:08:23 ◼   ► And that's a difficult trade-off

01:08:24 ◼   ► because we all just want convenience.

01:08:26 ◼   ► We also want the security, but day to day,

01:08:28 ◼   ► we just want the convenience.

01:08:29 ◼   ► For the virus stuff,

01:08:31 ◼   ► that same trade-off still exists.

01:08:35 ◼   ► Margo was just talking about having to leave an app turned on

01:08:37 ◼   ► and everything like that,

01:08:38 ◼   ► which would be quote-unquote more secure

01:08:40 ◼   ► 'cause you'd be aware that you're doing it,

01:08:41 ◼   ► but it's ridiculously inconvenient.

01:08:43 ◼   ► But the real trade-off here is efficacy versus security.

01:08:47 ◼   ► The more this system respects your privacy,

01:08:52 ◼   ► the less effective it is.

01:08:53 ◼   ► So you can imagine a system that totally violated

01:08:57 ◼   ► your privacy, that would be way more effective.

01:08:59 ◼   ► To give just one example, nowhere in this scheme

01:09:02 ◼   ► that Apple has come up with is location information

01:09:04 ◼   ► used anywhere, period.

01:09:06 ◼   ► Like the random identifiers that are sprayed out,

01:09:08 ◼   ► they're just random identifiers.

01:09:10 ◼   ► Nobody knows where anybody is.

01:09:11 ◼   ► There is no location information recorded

01:09:14 ◼   ► or exchanged whatsoever.

01:09:15 ◼   ► All it knows is that you saw this other device

01:09:19 ◼   ► that sprayed this number out.

01:09:21 ◼   ► Doesn't know where you are when you saw it.

01:09:22 ◼   ► I don't even know if it knows the time of day

01:09:24 ◼   ► when you saw it.

01:09:24 ◼   ► It's just merely like exposure.

01:09:27 ◼   ► Have you been exposed?

01:09:29 ◼   ► Did you get this number sprayed at you from this number,

01:09:32 ◼   ► this so-and-so forth?

01:09:33 ◼   ► The fact that it's voluntary

01:09:37 ◼   ► and that you have to go through this whole big procedure

01:09:39 ◼   ► to submit the fact, to assert this,

01:09:42 ◼   ► I've got it, I've been diagnosed, they tested me,

01:09:45 ◼   ► I'm positive.

01:09:46 ◼   ► The process of doing that, A, it's voluntary.

01:09:49 ◼   ► You don't have to do it if you don't want to

01:09:51 ◼   ► because again, that's better for privacy, right?

01:09:53 ◼   ► If it was involuntary and if you tested positive,

01:09:57 ◼   ► you had no choice and they would submit your thing,

01:09:59 ◼   ► worse for privacy, better for effectiveness

01:10:02 ◼   ► because at this point someone would be like,

01:10:03 ◼   ► oh, I don't wanna submit that, right?

01:10:06 ◼   ► And then you have to go through some process

01:10:07 ◼   ► which you have to know about and the doctor has to know about

01:10:09 ◼   ► and you have to come together and do all that stuff.

01:10:12 ◼   ► If instead, this is one of the things

01:10:14 ◼   ► the other country was talking about,

01:10:15 ◼   ► let's say that it sprayed out your location

01:10:19 ◼   ► and a bunch of identifiers and times of days

01:10:21 ◼   ► and it was all collected into one global server somewhere

01:10:24 ◼   ► so that some central authority or government

01:10:27 ◼   ► had tracking information in real time

01:10:29 ◼   ► of every single person and where they are 24 hours a day,

01:10:32 ◼   ► seven days a week and what other things

01:10:34 ◼   ► are in the vicinity and it connected up involuntarily

01:10:37 ◼   ► to all their private health information

01:10:38 ◼   ► so as soon as someone tested positive,

01:10:40 ◼   ► no participation needed, we would just connect all the dots

01:10:43 ◼   ► and find all the people.

01:10:44 ◼   ► That would be way more effective and a privacy nightmare.

01:10:48 ◼   ► So we're used to, we're talking about,

01:10:50 ◼   ► oh, convenience, privacy, trade-off

01:10:52 ◼   ► and you can have debates about it or whatever.

01:10:53 ◼   ► This is a whole different ballgame

01:10:55 ◼   ► because it's a similar set of trade-offs

01:10:57 ◼   ► but on the other side is like public health, right?

01:11:01 ◼   ► Your inconvenience, no matter how inconvenienced you are,

01:11:04 ◼   ► you probably don't die.

01:11:05 ◼   ► Some of you know it probably doesn't die

01:11:08 ◼   ► which is part of the reason these countries

01:11:11 ◼   ► with I think better governments,

01:11:14 ◼   ► with citizenry that has more faith in its government

01:11:17 ◼   ► were pushing the system.

01:11:18 ◼   ► I said, well, why won't you just let us

01:11:20 ◼   ► report all this information centrally

01:11:22 ◼   ► to the government automatically?

01:11:24 ◼   ► Because that's the purpose of government

01:11:25 ◼   ► to do a thing that individuals can't do.

01:11:28 ◼   ► The collective, as elected by the people,

01:11:32 ◼   ► responsibility is to serve the public good

01:11:37 ◼   ► and it is entrusted to serve the public good

01:11:40 ◼   ► through the system of government that we have, right?

01:11:42 ◼   ► So why wouldn't we wanna collect it?

01:11:44 ◼   ► And Apple and Google are like, no,

01:11:46 ◼   ► we're not going to do that.

01:11:48 ◼   ► Our system is completely anonymous.

01:11:50 ◼   ► You can't track people, there's no location

01:11:51 ◼   ► and there's no central authority or whatever.

01:11:55 ◼   ► It's on-device information.

01:11:56 ◼   ► All those privacy-preserving things make it less effective

01:12:03 ◼   ► but protects against what we know would happen

01:12:06 ◼   ► in the United States which is that some giant corporation

01:12:08 ◼   ► would eventually get this information

01:12:09 ◼   ► or they would leak out of the government

01:12:10 ◼   ► or would end up on a bunch of servers

01:12:12 ◼   ► and on the dark web or whatever.

01:12:14 ◼   ► Inevitably, it would get out.

01:12:17 ◼   ► We can't even keep our credit information secure.

01:12:19 ◼   ► There is no way to have that valuable pile of information

01:12:23 ◼   ► in the United States and not have it get out to bad actors,

01:12:26 ◼   ► let alone before you consider whether the government itself

01:12:29 ◼   ► is a bad actor and stuff like that.

01:12:30 ◼   ► So Apple and Google are doing what they can

01:12:35 ◼   ► within the parameters that present themselves.

01:12:37 ◼   ► And the final bit is that this isn't even out yet.

01:12:41 ◼   ► We're talking about the iOS 13.5 beta,

01:12:43 ◼   ► 13.5 presumably will be out in the next week or two.

01:12:46 ◼   ► But there is a question of by the time this actually gets

01:12:49 ◼   ► out and by the time actually people upload their phones,

01:12:52 ◼   ► how much value can it deliver?

01:12:55 ◼   ► And how much is that value necessarily constrained

01:12:57 ◼   ► by the dire environment in the United States

01:13:02 ◼   ► and in general across the world?

01:13:04 ◼   ► Do you have to sort of code for the worst-case scenario

01:13:07 ◼   ► and say we have to be very aggressive

01:13:10 ◼   ► at protecting your privacy even though we know

01:13:12 ◼   ► it will make this effort less effective than it could be?

01:13:15 ◼   ► And I think they've probably made the right trade-off

01:13:18 ◼   ► 'cause it is not an ideological trade-off.

01:13:21 ◼   ► It is the trade-offs they've made recognized

01:13:24 ◼   ► the realities of the world.

01:13:27 ◼   ► But I feel bad for the countries that are essentially

01:13:29 ◼   ► doing better than us and have more faith in their government

01:13:31 ◼   ► because we can't afford to have a system like this

01:13:36 ◼   ► that works well in the best of cases

01:13:39 ◼   ► but is a disaster in the worst of cases

01:13:41 ◼   ► because so many places in the world,

01:13:43 ◼   ► including the US, are the worst of cases.

01:13:46 ◼   ► - Yay.

01:13:47 ◼   ► - I mean, assuming if it's not on by default,

01:13:50 ◼   ► are you two gonna turn it on?

01:13:52 ◼   ► - Oh, totally.

01:13:53 ◼   ► - I mean, I don't see any downside to it personally.

01:13:55 ◼   ► Like, more data is good.

01:13:57 ◼   ► I don't particularly wanna, like,

01:14:00 ◼   ► I don't wanna know if I've been potentially infected,

01:14:02 ◼   ► but I really wanna know if I've been potentially infected.

01:14:05 ◼   ► So yeah, I would absolutely turn it on.

01:14:07 ◼   ► I am not currently in a position

01:14:11 ◼   ► where I think it's worth running the beta,

01:14:13 ◼   ► especially since it doesn't appear

01:14:14 ◼   ► that there's any, like, health organizations

01:14:16 ◼   ► that have released an app for it as far as I know.

01:14:18 ◼   ► But no, I definitely will turn it on

01:14:22 ◼   ► once the opportunity arises, when 13.5 is out for real.

01:14:25 ◼   ► - The other thing about this is

01:14:26 ◼   ► whenever there's any technology involved in health,

01:14:29 ◼   ► there's the danger of the magic thinking of technology,

01:14:31 ◼   ► especially people who aren't into technology.

01:14:33 ◼   ► I think it's whatever that's saying.

01:14:34 ◼   ► Like, if you're actually a programmer,

01:14:36 ◼   ► you know that all software is horrible,

01:14:37 ◼   ► but if you're not, you might think it's magic.

01:14:39 ◼   ► - So part of what this system has to do

01:14:42 ◼   ► is decide what counts as exposure, right?

01:14:44 ◼   ► It's not just, oh, I received a communication

01:14:47 ◼   ► via Bluetooth of this identifier,

01:14:49 ◼   ► because that could happen

01:14:50 ◼   ► when you drive by somebody in a car, right?

01:14:52 ◼   ► You probably didn't get it from them.

01:14:53 ◼   ► There is, they have to decide

01:14:54 ◼   ► how long do you have to be within proximity

01:14:58 ◼   ► of this thing to count as an exposure,

01:15:00 ◼   ► because practically speaking, again,

01:15:01 ◼   ► if you walk past each other on opposite sides of the street,

01:15:05 ◼   ► on opposite sidewalks,

01:15:06 ◼   ► you're probably not gonna get affected mostly.

01:15:09 ◼   ► From what we know of the transmissibility,

01:15:10 ◼   ► you're probably okay on opposite sides of the street.

01:15:12 ◼   ► But if you hang out in an elevator for half an hour,

01:15:15 ◼   ► you're probably gonna get it, right?

01:15:16 ◼   ► So somewhere between there,

01:15:17 ◼   ► this system has to decide what counts as exposure.

01:15:21 ◼   ► But because it's technology, they're gonna be like,

01:15:23 ◼   ► oh, well, I got an exposure notification.

01:15:25 ◼   ► That means I was exposed.

01:15:26 ◼   ► Well, maybe.

01:15:27 ◼   ► Or maybe they were a little bit conservative

01:15:32 ◼   ► with the exposure,

01:15:32 ◼   ► and really, they made it like a two-second gap,

01:15:34 ◼   ► and really, you walked past someone at a 12-foot distance

01:15:37 ◼   ► and were within range for them for two seconds

01:15:39 ◼   ► and counted as an exposure.

01:15:41 ◼   ► Or if you don't get a notification,

01:15:42 ◼   ► you're like, yay, I wasn't exposed.

01:15:43 ◼   ► Maybe, or maybe they said it

01:15:45 ◼   ► so you had to be in close proximity

01:15:47 ◼   ► for somebody for five minutes,

01:15:48 ◼   ► and you were in proximity for four minutes and 30 seconds,

01:15:50 ◼   ► and you got it, but you didn't get the notification.

01:15:52 ◼   ► So keep in mind that even when working as designed,

01:15:56 ◼   ► this isn't necessarily an imperfect system.

01:15:58 ◼   ► All we're trying to do is help.

01:16:00 ◼   ► This is better than not having the system,

01:16:02 ◼   ► but it is not, like anything else we're gonna hear,

01:16:05 ◼   ► a complete solution to the problem

01:16:07 ◼   ► if you get notified of this.

01:16:08 ◼   ► It doesn't mean you're sure you have it.

01:16:09 ◼   ► If you don't get notified,

01:16:10 ◼   ► it doesn't mean you're sure you're not.

01:16:11 ◼   ► It just adds more information than you had before.

01:16:13 ◼   ► - I would also say, for all of you listeners out there,

01:16:16 ◼   ► this is a thing where the question of whether you enable it

01:16:20 ◼   ► shouldn't even be a question.

01:16:21 ◼   ► Yes, enable it.

01:16:22 ◼   ► If you actually look at what it does and how it works,

01:16:28 ◼   ► it's a no-brainer.

01:16:30 ◼   ► There should be no controversy about it.

01:16:31 ◼   ► There should be no real concern about what it's doing,

01:16:36 ◼   ► and it will only work if everybody enables it.

01:16:38 ◼   ► So just enable it.

01:16:41 ◼   ► Research, if you're concerned,

01:16:42 ◼   ► research what it actually does, and you'll see.

01:16:45 ◼   ► You'll see it as I have by looking into the actual protocol,

01:16:48 ◼   ► what it's actually doing, that it's fine.

01:16:52 ◼   ► This is one of those cases like vaccines

01:16:53 ◼   ► where the only people who are gonna be afraid of it

01:16:56 ◼   ► and not do it are people who have less information,

01:16:59 ◼   ► willfully or not.

01:17:00 ◼   ► If you actually look at what it's doing, it's a no-brainer.

01:17:05 ◼   ► Yeah, and of course it's software.

01:17:07 ◼   ► There can be bugs and so on and so forth,

01:17:08 ◼   ► but in the grand scheme of things,

01:17:10 ◼   ► your phone company already has so much more information

01:17:13 ◼   ► about you than you can ever possibly imagine.

01:17:15 ◼   ► Just, yeah, enable this.

01:17:18 ◼   ► It's a no-brainer.

01:17:19 ◼   ► If you're listening to this thing,

01:17:20 ◼   ► they'll listen to, get advice from people

01:17:22 ◼   ► who know stuff about technology,

01:17:24 ◼   ► or were telling you, because of what I just mentioned,

01:17:27 ◼   ► how incredibly limited this is

01:17:30 ◼   ► and how preserving it is of your privacy,

01:17:33 ◼   ► that's the reason why you should just do it by default.

01:17:35 ◼   ► It's a no-brainer.

01:17:36 ◼   ► - Also in 13.5, there are group FaceTime

01:17:40 ◼   ► and Face ID improvements.

01:17:41 ◼   ► I haven't had the time to look into this myself,

01:17:42 ◼   ► but my limited understanding is you can,

01:17:45 ◼   ► or I guess when it detects that you're wearing a mask,

01:17:48 ◼   ► it will not wait near as long trying to figure out

01:17:52 ◼   ► whether or not this is your face,

01:17:53 ◼   ► and it will just immediately show you a password prompt.

01:17:56 ◼   ► Did I get that right?

01:17:57 ◼   ► - It'll scan your face.

01:17:58 ◼   ► Like it's still doing the face scanning,

01:18:00 ◼   ► but rather than just saying,

01:18:02 ◼   ► I'm trying to recognize his face,

01:18:03 ◼   ► I'm trying to recognize his face,

01:18:05 ◼   ► it will take a break if it doesn't immediately

01:18:08 ◼   ► recognize your face and say, okay,

01:18:09 ◼   ► I didn't recognize the face,

01:18:10 ◼   ► but does this look like a face that's wearing a mask?

01:18:13 ◼   ► And I'm not sure how it does that.