0:00:00Anything we need to talk about? You want to talk politics for a while?
0:00:02Oh my god.
0:00:09Yeah, this is not really related to the Mac Pro and Apple's getting out of the display
0:00:14business and all that business, but it's strangely connected. So I've got a PS4 Pro now, and
0:00:22one of the features of the PS4 Pro is that it theoretically supports 4K for games that
0:00:27are updated to support it and that actually do support it.
0:00:32And I figure, since I'm keeping my old PS4 and I have a gaming monitor with it as well,
0:00:37I needed a new monitor for the new one, because neither one of these is getting hooked up
0:00:41to my TV for display burn-in reasons.
0:00:45So when I was going to get a new monitor, I figured I should get a 4K one, because hey,
0:00:48the PlayStation 4 Pro is supposed to be all 4K capable, so that's what I should do.
0:00:52So I shopped around for a 4K monitor that supported HDR, which is another feature of
0:00:57the PS4 Pro.
0:00:58Actually, maybe they backported that to the plain old PS4, I don't remember.
0:01:02Anyway, apparently it's impossible to find an HDR-capable 4K computer monitor.
0:01:07You can find TVs, obviously, but I wasn't looking for a TV.
0:01:11And also, the size inflation of TVs that happened maybe three years ago, four years ago, where
0:01:18any decent TV is now like at least 55 inches.
0:01:22I'm fearing that someday you won't be able to get one less than 65 inches.
0:01:25Like the minimum size for a decent TV has gone up.
0:01:28You'll have to move.
0:01:29Yeah, you can't buy it yourself.
0:01:31Can I get a 27 inch 4K TV with HDR?
0:01:33The answer is no.
0:01:34No you can't.
0:01:35You want a 55 inch?
0:01:36I've got one of those for you.
0:01:38Anyway, no HDR, but I did want to get 4K.
0:01:42So I shopped around a little bit.
0:01:43I hate doing this because I don't...
0:01:45There's like a million different products in the non-Apple world.
0:01:49So much selection, it's overwhelming.
0:01:50I ended up getting a ViewSonic, great product names, XG2700 4K display, which is really
0:02:01nice.
0:02:02I especially like the stand it came with.
0:02:04It's like height adjustable, it was very sturdy.
0:02:07The monitor itself was a little chunky and a little bit gamer-y looking.
0:02:10It was black but with like a red stripe and these silly things.
0:02:13So it wasn't that bad.
0:02:14This is not only expensive, but you're whining about the LG display and the way that looks,
0:02:22and this has frickin' red trim on it?
0:02:24Are you serious, John Siracusa?
0:02:25Those are racing stripes that make you go faster.
0:02:27I mean, this is not my Mac, obviously.
0:02:29Have you seen what the PlayStation 4 itself looks like?
0:02:32This is hideous.
0:02:33I don't care.
0:02:34This is truly terrible.
0:02:36The LG Ultrafine is, it is not a pretty monitor.
0:02:39I'm not trying to say it's pretty, but it's positively understated compared to this atrocity.
0:02:44This is not that I mean if you look at it
0:02:46it's basically just
0:02:47Inconsolately black around the display and all you can see when you're sitting in front of it is the two little red side things on
0:02:52the stand and
0:02:54You can't even see the bread stripe on the on the vertical thing because it gets covered up at the height
0:02:58I had a monitor anyway. That's what I got oh, and it was all right all of these PC
0:03:03Gaming monitors have they have like on-screen you know
0:03:07Adjustments on the device itself that had nothing to do with the thing that's connected to it so on the device itself you can adjust
0:03:13like brightness and contrast, but also a million other settings, some of which are strange,
0:03:19through what you can imagine to be like the worst on-screen controls, you know? You know
0:03:22when they put like grainy sort of bitmapped little menu thing and normally have like a
0:03:26— the ViewSonic has like a one and two button, like the one brings up the menu, the two goes
0:03:30into it, and then there's up and down arrows.
0:03:33So bad.
0:03:34It's a terrible interface. It's kind of like going back in time to like when televisions
0:03:38first got on-screen displays. OSD they call them, on-screen display, which doesn't really
0:03:44make any sense. Is that what it stands for, on-screen display? Anyway.
0:03:46>> I believe that's right. >> It doesn't make any sense. Where else would
0:03:48the display be? Off-screen display? >> This is real. I'm still looking at this
0:03:53monitor. I mean, like, I should point out, like, I like many tastefully designed PC monitors.
0:04:00I like ViewSonic. And ViewSonic, I have owned multiple ViewSonic monitors. They are really
0:04:05good usually. I like red even. Red is one of my favorite colors for things to be in,
0:04:12even though Trump ruined red hats forever. But I look at this monitor and I cannot even
0:04:16imagine buying this thing and having this on my desk.
0:04:18I could not agree more.
0:04:20Just look at the monitor part of it. Not the stand, but just the monitor from the front.
0:04:24It is literally a matte black rectangle with the word "EUSONIC" on the bottom. That's
0:04:28pretty much as plain as you can get.
0:04:31But you will see the stand, and if you're not seeing the red stripe on the back, your
0:04:34monitor is probably too low. Well, I mean, I guess you can see a little tiny bit of it,
0:04:38but you don't notice it. And like the stand, among stands, you don't know how deep this
0:04:43thing goes. Go look at some of the stands of other PC and gaming monitors. Just do me
0:04:47a favor, do me a favor, get a VESA arm and have that hold this up instead. Yeah, no,
0:04:52I'm getting to the VESA arm, okay? We'll get there. Is it VESA? Not VESA? All these years.
0:04:58I'm gonna say VESA and it's definitely a move file and you mispronounce everything, so.
0:05:02I don't understand how you besmirch the 5K monitor as an atrocity that you would never
0:05:09be able to use ever, and then you buy this piece of garbage.
0:05:15Do you think I would ever connect this to my Mac?
0:05:17What difference does it make?
0:05:19Oh, it makes a difference.
0:05:20I would never connect this to my Mac.
0:05:21It doesn't even get to be on the same desk as my Mac.
0:05:23I love that you have lower standards for the PC and gaming equipment.
0:05:27Of course I do.
0:05:29Not only of course I do, I don't disagree.
0:05:31But you really have no choice.
0:05:33You have to have – I have different standards anyway, but you have no choice.
0:05:36There is no nice, tasteful PC hardware for the most part.
0:05:42Even things like the HP Spectre are really – I see they're putting in an effort, but
0:05:46it's not to my taste.
0:05:48Anyway, let me continue my story here.
0:05:50So I got this thing, and the adjustments on it are very strange.
0:05:54I'm trying to get it sort of calibrated to something reasonable, but they have all sorts
0:05:58of settings, most of which fly in the face of my television snob sensibilities, because
0:06:05the television you want to adjust, like you're trying, there is a goal, there is like, you
0:06:10can get reference images and say it should look like this, you know, because television
0:06:13content is produced with the expectation that here is the color range of your display, here is the
0:06:18brightness behavior, all sorts of other things like that. Whereas for a gaming monitor specifically,
0:06:26Games are not produced with any sort of reference viewing environment, right?
0:06:32Because there is no real standard for that. Games are produced, I don't know how they
0:06:37decide like how dark should the textures be and you know, what color range should we use?
0:06:41I really don't know what they use, but I can tell you that everybody's PC monitors are
0:06:46not calibrated like quote unquote correctly and are all over the map and there is a setting that
0:06:51seems to be pervasive on all PC monitors, especially with the gaming band they call
0:06:55"black stabilization." Have you ever even heard of that?
0:06:57>> MATT PORTER, MD No.
0:06:58>> JEREMY CHANIN, MD What—why is black changing?
0:07:01>> MATT PORTER, MD Yeah, so in games, a lot of games are made where there'll be dark
0:07:06sections where you go, like, in a cave or something. But if you're playing a game,
0:07:09especially a competitive game, you don't actually want to, quote-unquote,
0:07:14"faithfully" reproduce the blacks because you won't be able to see anything.
0:07:18And it is an advantage for you instead to have the monitor so that it kind of, I'm assuming
0:07:21what it's doing is like squashing everything down.
0:07:23It's like, oh, I can see the subtle difference between 100% black and 99% black and 98% black
0:07:29in this cave.
0:07:30It's important for me to see that so I can pick out the edges of the cave wall and find
0:07:34where the enemies are or whatever.
0:07:36Like if you've ever seen anyone do like competitive first person shooters in PC gaming, they're
0:07:41not trying to get visual fidelity as if it's a movie or television show.
0:07:45What they're trying to do is, can I see everything clearly?
0:07:49So a lot of the monitors have settings that make the picture worse, like by reducing the
0:07:55dynamic range and making areas that would be black less black, which looks bad.
0:08:01It's like a bad black level on your TV.
0:08:03And also all the settings that are involved like response time, because that's the other
0:08:06big thing.
0:08:07A lot of gamers use TN panels, which nobody uses anymore because they look terrible, the
0:08:10viewing angles are terrible, but they have better response time.
0:08:14I've never gone that far.
0:08:15I couldn't get a TN display, 'cause that's like,
0:08:17I mean, it's like going back to the MacBook Air.
0:08:19It's like, no.
0:08:20- I mean, you aren't an animal.
0:08:21- Right, so I got an IPS display,
0:08:23which it has like a five times worse response time,
0:08:26but even on these displays,
0:08:27there's a way you can change the response time
0:08:29to be as good as it can be,
0:08:32doing what I assume is sacrificing visual quality.
0:08:35I'm trying to strike the right balance
0:08:37between don't look terrible monitor,
0:08:39but also I do feel there's a benefit
0:08:42to not having everything be black
0:08:44when I'm doing the raid, one of the raids in Destiny,
0:08:46there are a lot of dark areas,
0:08:48and if I'm doing some jumping puzzle in the dark
0:08:50to try to do something, I like, you know,
0:08:52I do have it adjusted, quote unquote, wrong,
0:08:54so I can, so the games play better.
0:08:57So anyway, I had a lot of trouble
0:08:59trying to get the ViewSonic setup that way,
0:09:00but the real problem was that for a while,
0:09:02my PlayStation 4 Pro did not show me a 4K output option,
0:09:06it would just output 1080.
0:09:08I'm like, well, that's not what I want,
0:09:09I need you to output 4K.
0:09:10So I did a bunch of Googling,
0:09:12The PlayStation says, you know, "Count out port 4K," and it would say, "HDCP 2.2 not
0:09:18available."
0:09:19I don't know if you guys are familiar with HDCP, but it's another one of those stupid
0:09:22things that makes you a life force for no good reason.
0:09:25And this monitor apparently predates HDCP 2.2.
0:09:27It only supports, like, I forget what the earlier standard is, maybe 1.1 or 1.4.
0:09:32I don't know.
0:09:33Anyway, I had a "HDMI 2.0" cable and everything was good, but it didn't work with it, and
0:09:38I did some Googling, and you find people asking if you saw an icon Twitter, "Hey, does this
0:09:41monitor support HTTP 2.2?" They say, "Sorry, no." So I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to have to
0:09:46return this thing and get a different monitor." Now it turns out you can get it to games to
0:09:52display 4K on this. It has a bunch of HDMI ports in the back and like so many televisions
0:09:56and monitors before, only one of the ports is like the good one. So once I move the cable
0:10:02to the good port, the one and only good port, which isn't labeled with anything that says,
0:10:05"Hey, this is the only one that does HDMI 2.0. Hey, this is the only one that does 4K."
0:10:10turns out there's only one that does it. So I could display games in 4k on this, but I still
0:10:15wanted to get another monitor because this one still doesn't support HTTP 2.2, which probably
0:10:20isn't a factor for playing games, but it does mean that like Netflix and other stuff like that that
0:10:23wants to display video content won't do it on 4k because this doesn't do the stupid intellectual
0:10:28property copy protection dance just the right way for stupid reasons. So I returned this one
0:10:36in grand Marco fashion.
0:10:38Although this was just plain old my fault of like,
0:10:40I didn't even think to look for HTTP 2.0.
0:10:42I'm like, I just need a gaming monitor.
0:10:44This is one of those, it has HDMI input.
0:10:46I should be good to go.
0:10:47- And by the way, I don't usually return things.
0:10:49Usually I sell them.
0:10:50- I thought about selling this
0:10:52'cause like the stupid restocking fee on this
0:10:54was gonna be a lot of money.
0:10:55I'm like, well, if I can sell it
0:10:56for more than the restocking fee, then.
0:10:58- Oh, if there's a restocking fee, I'll return it for sure.
0:11:00It's just an issue of like, I don't wanna like,
0:11:03like I feel bad returning things
0:11:04when I know someone else is going to be eating the cost.
0:11:06But if I'm definitely eating the cost, then I won't feel bad about that anymore.
0:11:10Yeah, I was just hoping I-- if I sold it to someone else, like a brand new monitor that
0:11:13had like barely even touched the-- the little plastic films were still on the thing, you
0:11:17know, the peely plastic stuff that protects it.
0:11:19That was still on it.
0:11:20So this was brand new, but if I could have sold it for somebody for like maybe $80 less
0:11:25than I paid for it, then I still would have come out ahead.
0:11:29Anyway, so I returned that one.
0:11:31And in its place I got an LG 4K display.
0:11:36I don't have an LG 5K display.
0:11:38I now have an LG 4K display.
0:11:40Does it have that weird little head with the camera in it?
0:11:43It is not a 5 head.
0:11:45Take a look at it.
0:11:46Wait, what model is it?
0:11:48The ridiculous thing.
0:11:49I just put the link in the show notes.
0:11:50It is not a 5 head.
0:11:52It is more tame looking.
0:11:55Whoa, there's no edge.
0:11:57There is.
0:11:58It's just a, it's very thin.
0:11:59But you know, so you notice this one is smaller overall.
0:12:03It comes in a very small box, as Casey noted.
0:12:05The frame around it is very small.
0:12:08The panel is probably the same panel that's in like every LG 27-inch 4K display that you
0:12:12can get right now, because they sell a whole bunch of them with different letter suffixes
0:12:15on them.
0:12:16The little stand that it's on is where the ViewSonic kicks its butt.
0:12:20Because the ViewSonic stand was big, chunky, height adjustable, and red, and stable, right?
0:12:28In this monitor, if you take your finger and put it under the corner and tap upwards, the
0:12:32monitor bobbles its little bobblehead like it's one of those little hula dolls that you
0:12:35put on a dashboard or one of those bobblehead figures, right?
0:12:38It is the worst designed stand.
0:12:40It just connects with two screws that you screw in yourself to this little tiny thing
0:12:44in the back of it.
0:12:46Terrible stand.
0:12:47It's ugly, too.
0:12:48I think that little semicircular thing is ugly.
0:12:49It takes up more room on your desk width-wise than that square thing that the ViewSonic
0:12:53had.
0:12:54stripe, but it doesn't perform adequately the function of keeping the monitor still.
0:12:58So if I bump my desk with my knee while I'm playing, I gotta watch a stupid bobblehead
0:13:02bobble in front of me.
0:13:03Now it does have a VESA mount on the back, and so I said, "Alright, well whatever, who
0:13:07cares about that stand, it's got the 100mm VESA mount on the back of the thing."
0:13:11All I have to do is find a sturdy VESA mount, get rid of that stupid foot, and use that.
0:13:18But I don't want an arm, because I don't want to clamp it to my desk, because I have glass
0:13:22on top of my desk and I don't want to clamp anything to it on my desk.
0:13:25I just don't want an arm.
0:13:27There's too much stuff going on back there.
0:13:28I just want a stand.
0:13:30And every single VESA stand I could find was uglier than this foot.
0:13:33Yeah, you're not going to have a good time there.
0:13:37They're terrible.
0:13:38Like, the metal ones look like giant metal horseshoes.
0:13:40The plastic ones look just as bad as this.
0:13:44So I'm just going to, I'm just not hitting my desk and being careful.
0:13:49And by the way, the on-screen controls for this one are better than the ViewSonic, but
0:13:51still pretty grim.
0:13:52This one has a tiny little joystick under the middle that you move around.
0:13:56It's like kind of like a five-way switch, you know, you get up, down, left, right, and
0:13:58press in.
0:13:59But boy, what a terrible interface.
0:14:02And because it's the bottom, and you're wiggling a joystick that's like pointing down, but
0:14:06you're trying to move controls on the screen that are going, you know, in a different plane
0:14:11up, down, left, and right.
0:14:13Anyway, I think this one looks a little bit better than the ViewSonic's panel quality-wise.
0:14:19Or maybe it's just that I have had more time to tweak it because the adjustments are not
0:14:22so painful to use in the menu, but it has all the same crap, including a response time
0:14:27adjustment in which the value that you want is high.
0:14:30It's like, I don't want high response time, but yet because of the way they name these
0:14:34features and probably the poor translation of the options, I had to look it up in the
0:14:37manual and say, "Which one do I want for the thing where the response time number is a
0:14:41lower number of milliseconds?
0:14:43Oh, high.
0:14:44That makes sense."
0:14:45Why would you ever want it to be slower?
0:14:47I think it decreases the quality of the display.
0:14:50It decreases the-- I don't know, something.
0:14:51I'm assuming the color quality or something.
0:14:53It's doing less processing on the display.
0:14:55And probably it's trying to not put
0:15:00as much computation between the signal and the screen.
0:15:03The same thing with-- there's like a sharpness thing that'll
0:15:05apply a sharpness filter.
0:15:06And especially when playing games in 1080,
0:15:08like Destiny is still just 1080, the sharpness filter
0:15:11does help make the text look better,
0:15:13but it adds processing overhead.
0:15:14So if you really want the best response time,
0:15:16that the best option is to turn the sharpness all the way down, which is what I've done.
0:15:20Anyway, I was able to adjust this to get it to look a little bit better to my eyes than
0:15:23the ViewSonic, and now I'm just patiently waiting for 4K games to come out.
0:15:27So I do not have this exact same monitor, I was mistaken.
0:15:31For a couple different reasons, one, I'm pretty sure it's a different model.
0:15:35So you got the UD68-P, I got the UD58-B, and the bezel on mine is…
0:15:46considerably larger than the bezel on yours. Also, you chose poorly if this is ever going
0:15:52to get connected to a computer. If you're ever going to connect it to a computer, 4K
0:15:57is not enough DPI for 27 inches. You should have gotten 5K.
0:16:01Yeah, no, I'm never connecting this to a computer. What computer would I connect this to? My
0:16:04gaming PC? Well, you could connect it to your piece of
0:16:08garbage Mac in theory and then actually have a retina Mac.
0:16:11No, I would—this also is never going to be connected to a Mac.
0:16:15I love that all of this trouble you're going through, I mean this is all like this crazy
0:16:20stuff you're going through and having this whole separate desk set up that of course
0:16:23has one near your Mac and everything and having this PC monitor, all this and yet you won't
0:16:29build a gaming PC.
0:16:30Like you're basically doing, you're putting in all the effort that it would take to have
0:16:34a gaming PC.
0:16:35No way, the Playstation is way less effort than a gaming PC, way less effort than a gaming
0:16:40PC.
0:16:41I mean once you get into all this crazy monitor twiddling that you're doing, I mean really
0:16:44like you might like why is there not a gaming PC on this second second to your desk that
0:16:49you have gaming PC would not do there's no destiny for PC.
0:16:53Hello Destiny 2 may be coming for PC fans.
0:16:55But anyway there's no destiny for PC.
0:16:57There's no West Guardian for PC.
0:16:59There's no Uncharted 4 for PC.
0:17:01Like I need to have this.
0:17:03This is the thing that I need.
0:17:04Gaming PC does not replace this in any possible especially since the only thing I do with
0:17:08my consoles is play like a handful of games that are essentially console exclusives even
0:17:12on my Nintendo consoles.
0:17:13There's no gaming PC that's going to play the next Zelda game, right?
0:17:17That's what I buy these things for.
0:17:18So I would have to have a gaming PC in addition to this, and there's no room for it, and it's
0:17:22way more headache than this.
0:17:24You know, I didn't mind the 4K thing, because I was excited to get a 4K monitor and to play
0:17:28games at that resolution.
0:17:29I do have a few games that have had updates that came out, which really just makes things
0:17:33a little bit sharper, because it's not like they redid all the textures for the most part.
0:17:36I think Overwatch is 4K now, I haven't looked at that yet, but anyway, there's a bunch of
0:17:41there and I haven't, I don't have the PlayStation VR yet but I'm considering getting that. But no,
0:17:47I'm pretty happy with the setup. Oh, I'm about the PS4 Pro. The only complaint I have about it,
0:17:52and I realize I should probably just complain to Sony and get this fixed, the one controller
0:17:58that the PS4 Pro came with, the left analog stick, if you look at it, like from the side,
0:18:03is tilted in the neutral position ever so slightly. And I'm not having any of that, so.
0:18:08I'm using my old DualShock because they didn't change the controller or anything, they just changed it like the buttons are now like ugly gray instead of black.
0:18:17And I think maybe the triggers might be a little bit better.
0:18:19But anyway, I'm gonna complain to Sony and say, "Hey look, I took this thing out of the box, I never touched it.
0:18:23In the neutral position, all of these analog sticks should be straight up and down, this one is tilted to give me a new thing."
0:18:29And I'm sure Sony will be happy to do that for me.
0:18:33Oh, I'm sure.
0:18:34On the one side, Jon, I truly, genuinely admire how perceptive you are and how you can notice these little things.
0:18:43Oh, you would notice it. It's not like, "Oh, this is obscure. I'd only notice if I took it, like, out of level or a plumb bob."
0:18:49You'd notice it with your eyeballs. It is not subtle.
0:18:52But with that said, I am so glad that I am, at worst, mildly critical.
0:18:59And not hypercritical like you are.
0:19:02- This whole conversation, I'm sitting here thinking,
0:19:05thank God this is one area I don't really care about.
0:19:08Like, I don't care about gaming really at all.
0:19:11I'd like to, but I don't.
0:19:12I barely care about TVs.
0:19:15I barely care about TV adjustments
0:19:17and picture quality adjustments and everything.
0:19:19I am just, I certainly don't care about analog sticks
0:19:22being slightly tilted from neutral.
0:19:24I am just so happy that, like,
0:19:26there are so many areas that I care way too much about.
0:19:30At least here's one that I don't.
0:19:32- Yep.
0:19:33- 'Cause I'm not carving my own analog sticks out of plastic.
0:19:36That'd be the equivalent of you roasting your own beans.
0:19:38- Hey, roasting your own beans is really not that hard,
0:19:41and it's really good.
0:19:42- I know, but I'm saying like,
0:19:44it is one thing to be picky about the things that you buy,
0:19:46but then at a certain point you say,
0:19:47"There's nothing I can buy.
0:19:48I must make it myself."
0:19:50And that would be the equivalent
0:19:51of me carving my own controllers
0:19:52and like a controller assembly kit
0:19:54and like making my own analog sticks
0:19:56and like assembling it from pieces.
0:19:57- You try to find good coffee on this half of the county.
0:20:00I guarantee you can't find it.
0:20:02There's no good controllers either, but I just accept what they sell me.
0:20:05I just want it to be, like, you know, correct as, uh, when it comes out of the box, everything
0:20:09should be straight.
0:20:10If you could make your own perfect controller for $5 in 20 minutes, wouldn't you do it?
0:20:14And then I have to drink it and it's gone and I gotta do it all over again?
0:20:17Hence the analogy of breaking down.
0:20:19Alright, so anyway, um, this monitor that you bought, Jon, is not HDR, is that correct?
0:20:25No, it's not.
0:20:26Isn't that one of the—because that's why you bought that god-awful red racing-striped
0:20:30ViewSonic, was to get it.
0:20:31No, none of them are.
0:20:32No, you can't get as far as I remember.
0:20:35There are none for sale.
0:20:36There is no gaming monitor.
0:20:38Like I said, you can get a TV with HDR.
0:20:39You can get a 4K TV with HDR support for your PS4 Pro.
0:20:42But as far as I was able to determine, there is no monitor, computer monitor that you can
0:20:47buy as in a thing that's 27 inches and not 55 that you put on a desk that has HDR support.
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0:22:31[Music]
0:22:33Can you guys see the difference between wide color and not? Because maybe I've
0:22:41just never really had a good example photo in like two screens next to each
0:22:46other, but briefly before I gave up my 6s when I had—but I did have my 7, I held
0:22:52the two of them side by side and damned if I could tell the difference. And I
0:22:55don't know if it's just that my eyes are crappy, which they unequivocally are,
0:22:57are, if I just don't appreciate it, which is possible, or is it just not that big a
0:23:03deal if you're not like a designer?
0:23:05Like Marco, for example, are you able to tell the difference when you just look at an arbitrary
0:23:09photo on a wide color display versus a not wide color display?
0:23:16Not yet.
0:23:17I suspect as wide color displays become what I'm looking at every day, because like right
0:23:21now I do most of my computing on a 2014 5K iMac, which does not have the high color display.
0:23:27And so I now have it on my phone and on my iPad, but really I'm doing almost all of my, you know,
0:23:33looking at things on my iMac. But it's not, it's not, it doesn't matter where you look at them,
0:23:38it's the source material. So Casey, if you have something you look at, if you look at the same
0:23:42picture that you took in a pre-wide color world, of course it's gonna look the same, because there's
0:23:48no wide color information in it. You have to take the picture with a device capable of capturing
0:23:52that. And then look at that same picture, one on like your iPhone 7 that you took it
0:23:57on that took a wide color picture, and then the other one on that.
0:24:00I thought that's what I did, but truth be told it was right when I first got the 7.
0:24:05I wouldn't have put it past me to accidentally have taken like an old picture and said, "Oh,
0:24:08I don't see anything." But, and I've seen like the sample images like where there's
0:24:13like a big red blob and there's an R hidden in there that you wouldn't see unless it's
0:24:18wide color, you know, and stuff like that. But nevertheless, on a regular picture, I've
0:24:24not noticed a difference. And as a corollary question, is my two-year-old Micro Four Thirds,
0:24:30I presume that's not wide color. Is that fair to say?
0:24:34Most cameras have, well, most cameras don't have this option. Middle and high-end cameras
0:24:40often will have an option to save the colors in Adobe RGB, maybe, instead of like, sRGB.
0:24:46But I haven't looked too much into this.
0:24:48As far as I know, I think that conversion happens after RAW anyway, so you might be
0:24:53able to fix this with just a different RAW conversion process.
0:24:56Jon, do you know about this?
0:24:58I was going to say what you said.
0:25:00There are other color profiles that are not called P3 that nevertheless have a larger
0:25:03range than sRGB.
0:25:04Yeah, like Adobe RGB is one of them.
0:25:06Yeah, I don't know what the little envelopes look like in all of them.
0:25:09And especially if you capture RAW, then that's all the information you're going to get.
0:25:13And if you can pull more stuff out of it, I don't know.
0:25:15I would like your best source for images with wide color is your iPhone 7 because it's yeah, you know
0:25:20It's it's all sure I next it up and then there
0:25:23If you I'm sure you've looked at Craig Hockenberry's page where he has a bunch of sample images
0:25:28if you really can't tell the difference between the sample images because they're made to like emphasize the areas where
0:25:33Humans can perceive the p3 color difference more that those really emphasize and those are kind of like artificial
0:25:40but I have seen some other pictures where it's like
0:25:43Just a picture of like a park like grass and a tree and some sky
0:25:46And if you see them side by side like I do on my iPad Pro and I go to that page like alright
0:25:51I mean, it's not it doesn't jump out at you
0:25:53But if you look you're like you're like is this really the same picture. It's like yes
0:25:56This is literally the same picture
0:25:58Just one is s RGB and then the other one is showing the full white color and the full white color one
0:26:02It's it's almost like
0:26:05Contrast is turned down on the other one like there's not like the greens don't look as green like in this you know in the grass
0:26:11type situation, like, "Oh, that tree looks a little bit more pastel-y and washed out."
0:26:15Not a lot, but you have to see them side by side to see it. I don't think I could pick one out alone,
0:26:19but if you literally show me the same picture in wide and not wide, you go, "Oh, the wide looks
0:26:23a little better." That's about it. Okay. Okay, so I'm not entirely crazy then, because I'm looking
0:26:27at this link on WebKit, and we'll put it in the show notes, and they have, like, and this is what
0:26:31I was thinking of, they have the WebKit logo, which is like this big red blob that in sRGB,
0:26:36you don't see the logo, and then if you go into P3, you can see the logo. Well, if you scroll down
0:26:41on that same page, they have a yellow flower. And if you click—well, this is like what you were
0:26:45saying, Jon—if you click between the sRGB-only and the P3, unequivocally I can tell that the P3
0:26:52is much more vivid and looks more real. But if I were to look at either of these images,
0:26:58like you said, Jon, without the other side-by-side, unlike, say, a retina screen versus a non-retina
0:27:04Retina screen were just unbelievably obvious.
0:27:08With these, I don't think I would notice the difference
0:27:10unless they're side by side.
0:27:11- I mean, that's how I am with most of these, too.
0:27:13You know, like the example things, if I look at it
0:27:15like on my iPad Pro, which is currently my biggest
0:27:18P3 screen, these pictures look great, sure.
0:27:21Like the big orangey sunsets, like yeah,
0:27:24they do look a little more saturated
0:27:25in those like orangey reddish tones,
0:27:28but you can look at a non-retina screen
0:27:30or a non-retina image or asset on a webpage
0:27:33on a retina screen, and you can tell that difference
0:27:35immediately, the very first thing you see
0:27:38that is non-retina, after you're accustomed to retina,
0:27:41you notice that immediately.
0:27:42Whereas if I am scrolling through a webpage
0:27:45and I see a picture of an orangey sunset that is not P3,
0:27:48after I'm used to P3, I don't think I will notice
0:27:51'cause it could just look like it wasn't as saturated
0:27:53of a picture as it could have been.
0:27:54And so it's not, you know, it's a way smaller advance
0:27:59for everyday casual observing and for most people.
0:28:03It's nice to have, I'm glad they're doing it.
0:28:05And it's especially nice if you actually shoot
0:28:08a lot of pictures of orangy sunsets and things.
0:28:11But it's a very, in general use,
0:28:14it's the kind of thing you can very easily forget
0:28:16that you even have.
0:28:17- Okay, that was my experience as well.
0:28:19And I was curious because I feel like,
0:28:21and maybe it's just because I follow people
0:28:23like Hockenberry and Mark Edwards,
0:28:24and they're really revved up about it.
0:28:26But to me, I was like, man, I barely see the difference.
0:28:29And I'm glad to hear that that's not necessarily unusual.
0:28:32Two more things on the monitors. First, Casey, when you go back to work, you should tap the
0:28:36underside of one of the corners of your monitor and see if you've got a bobble head too, because
0:28:39I think you have the same. Oh, I definitely do. Oh yeah.
0:28:41Yeah. That's like, what a bad job. Like, the stand has one simple function. Just put the monitor up
0:28:46off the desk, off the ground, and keep it still. And it fails at that thing. The other thing is,
0:28:51the one thing, even though this LG monitor is, you know, there's not much to it. Like,
0:28:54it is just black everywhere. It's not matte. It's not shiny. Doesn't have much of a frame around it.
0:28:59It's not a five head.
0:29:01The part on the bottom is the biggest part.
0:29:03So like it's proportion-- the LG logo is small and subtle.
0:29:05But if you go to that Amazon page for my thing and do the little zoomy thing, you can zoom
0:29:10in and see the LG logo, right?
0:29:12Move over to the right from the LG logo.
0:29:14What do you see there lurking in the corner?
0:29:17Because this is a PC product, it's just got to be ugly in some stupid way.
0:29:20What do you see there?
0:29:21This stupid Energy Star.
0:29:23And it's small.
0:29:24It's not a big Energy Star badge.
0:29:26And it's black and white.
0:29:27Like it's not colored and weird.
0:29:29But it's like the whole front of this thing has nothing on it.
0:29:32I will accept the LG logo.
0:29:34It is small and tasteful and centered.
0:29:36Why the hell is it an energy processor?
0:29:37And so I'm like, I'm just going to peel that sticker off.
0:29:39But it's one of those stickers where I'm going to have to think on it for a while because
0:29:44it is clearly not one of those ones that comes off easy.
0:29:46You know, the ones that are like made to come off.
0:29:48Like the metal one?
0:29:49Oh, it's not metal.
0:29:51It's not plastic.
0:29:52Like here's the math I have to do.
0:29:53Like I know I could get it off.
0:29:56But after I get it off, what's left underneath the square where it used to be?
0:30:01Well that looked worse than the sticker.
0:30:02Because the sticker, for all its ugliness, looks like a sticker.
0:30:06It's the Energy Star logo.
0:30:07If I peel it off and there's a bunch of like sticky crap or I damage the plastic underneath
0:30:11it, but it's all just cheap plastic.
0:30:13This is not an aluminum Apple display or anything, right?
0:30:16If I damage it somehow, or get sticky stuff in there that I somehow can't get off with
0:30:20careful application of SkinSoSoft on it, which by the way, that's a secret for all you out
0:30:26if you get sticky crap from stickers on them. One of the many things that will remove it,
0:30:29I know there are many products, but one of the ones that I've used for years is Avon's
0:30:33Skin So Soft, which I think was supposed to be a thing that softens your skin. The only
0:30:36thing I've ever used it for is a take-off sticker scum. And it's got a pleasant odor.
0:30:41Oh my god. Why are we-- I love the extent to which we will avoid talking about the Microsoft
0:30:47Surface Studio. No, we'll get there. We'll get there. Anyway, Energy Star sticker, it's,
0:30:54you know, it's just got to be ugly in some way. And like I said, I don't like that semi-circular
0:30:59horseshoe stand. I don't know who thought that was nice, but it's not.
0:31:02So that Energy Star sticker that on your monitors on the bottom right, I have what appeared
0:31:07to be an identical one, but if you look at the stand, and you know how it's kind of tilted
0:31:12at a sort of, not a 45 degree angle, but like a 30 degree angle maybe? Well, mine was all
0:31:18the way on the left on that stand, and I let it sit for a week or two before I even noticed
0:31:22And then I was like, oh, this is crap.
0:31:23And you know what I did?
0:31:24I immediately ripped it off
0:31:25because I don't worry about things like you do.
0:31:28And there was no residue.
0:31:29Or if there was residue,
0:31:30I like rubbed at it with my thumb for a second.
0:31:33- You don't know if there's residue.
0:31:34You probably just that.
0:31:35I don't even see it in the Amazon picture of your monitor.
0:31:37I don't see the Energy Star sticker anywhere on it.
0:31:40- You're right.
0:31:41I don't see it either, but it was there for sure.
0:31:43- Yeah, so anyway, I might make a run
0:31:45of that sticker eventually.
0:31:47- Just rip it off, Jon.
0:31:49It's like a band-aid, just rip it off.
0:31:51Speaking of Windows stuff, we got a series of tweets from Jordan who is nerdiophage on
0:31:59Twitter.
0:32:01And he tweeted five things, I'll read them in series.
0:32:04He says, "I spent a week with a MacBook Pro escape after two solid decades of Windows
0:32:09use.
0:32:10I was of the opinion that Marco's unabashed dislike of the OS of Windows was equal parts
0:32:15adoptive culture/fanboyism/showmanship.
0:32:19I stand corrected and a little bit humbled.
0:32:22The Windows path from Neophyte to Power User is shaped by registry edits, decoder rings,
0:32:27and secret knocks, which is arduous.
0:32:29Mac OS, by comparison, feels inviting, friendly, and intuitive, like a late-night conversation
0:32:35at a dinner party with good friends.
0:32:36So TL;DR, this is still Jordan, Mac OS, holy crap, I get it.
0:32:42Transition cost will be very high, but seriously considering it.
0:32:45And this echoes my experience in 2008 of switching from Windows to OS X at the time.
0:32:51There were two weeks where I doubted my life and thought I'd made a terrible, awful, horrible
0:32:55choice and then I'd never look back.
0:32:58I'm not saying that Jordan's experience is true for everyone, because now we're going
0:33:01to have all the Windows apologists writing in telling us how Windows is good and we're
0:33:04a bunch of jerks and blah blah blah.
0:33:06But--
0:33:07Do they still really listen to us?
0:33:08Some do, because we still get emails.
0:33:11I'm not saying that this is true for everyone, I'm not saying Windows isn't better in some
0:33:14way or another, but what I am saying is that we are not the only ones that seem to think
0:33:20that there's a better way. So, just thought I'd share those series of tweets from Jordan,
0:33:24so thank you Jordan for writing us. We had an interesting conversation in Slack, Marco,
0:33:30and I'd like to air a grievance. Let's back up to circa January, maybe December, so almost
0:33:39year ago now. And the two of you, but my recollection was that it was mostly Marco, were saying,
0:33:46"You know what, Casey? You should never put personal crap on your work laptop. You should
0:33:53really have a nice powerful machine for home use. You probably shouldn't be ignoring Aaron
0:33:59and using your laptop while you're sitting next door on the couch. You know what you
0:34:02need? You need an iMac. I've tried the laptop dance, Casey. It's no good. It's no good,
0:34:07man, get the iMac. Think about that 27 inch beautiful 5K display with wide color, blah
0:34:12blah blah blah blah. I'm telling you it's the way to go.
0:34:16This is, there are some, I have some nitpicks with your summary already, but go ahead.
0:34:20But then fast forward to, I don't know, a few days ago, when Marco was talking in Slack,
0:34:26that private place that we really shouldn't bring up publicly, but here I am because I'm
0:34:29annoyed, Marco is talking in Slack and saying, "Hmm, you know what, maybe I'll get a new
0:34:36MacBook Pro and a 5K display and I'll be back to a one machine man again and I won't even
0:34:42have to have a stupid desktop anymore.
0:34:45That's not, okay.
0:34:47Okay.
0:34:48So here's what I said.
0:34:51So basically looking at performance of everything and figuring a potential and maybe even likely
0:34:59future that does not include the Mac Pro existing and also includes standalone 5K Retina displays
0:35:06that can plug into laptops that have,
0:35:09not matching, but maybe 90% of the performance of iMacs,
0:35:15or 80% of the performance of iMacs.
0:35:19I always say the reason I buy the 15 inch laptops
0:35:22is because when I'm traveling,
0:35:25I either need almost nothing,
0:35:27in which case it doesn't matter what I have,
0:35:29and the laptop's mainly there to type emails faster,
0:35:32or to browse Twitter,
0:35:33or I'm doing serious work,
0:35:36whether it's Xcode or Lightroom photo raw importing
0:35:40and stuff and editing.
0:35:41Either way, usually when I use a laptop during travel,
0:35:46I want a lot of screen space and I want a lot of horsepower.
0:35:50I also now have an iMac as my main computer.
0:35:54And looking at the specs of these computers these days,
0:35:58comparing the new MacBook Pros with LG 5K display,
0:36:04assuming it's good, which we don't actually know yet,
0:36:06but we'll assume it's good, 'cause it probably is.
0:36:08Comparing that against the iMac,
0:36:11basically I am maintaining and upgrading
0:36:14and paying for two different computers
0:36:17with overall fairly similar hardware
0:36:20and fairly similar performance.
0:36:23And so I thought, you know what I probably should do,
0:36:27but won't, and I bolded, won't,
0:36:30but I said what I probably should do
0:36:33is stop having two similarly spec'd Macs
0:36:37that I pay for and maintain and everything,
0:36:41or just have a top of the line 15 inch MacBook Pro
0:36:45that I use, like many people do,
0:36:47in clam shell mode, on my desk most of the time,
0:36:51but then when I travel I can just take that with me
0:36:53and have all the power of this maxed out computer with me.
0:36:56That is what I should do.
0:36:59It is not what I'm doing.
0:37:01And maybe in the future I will do that.
0:37:04You know me, I always change everything up
0:37:06'cause I'm never happy.
0:37:07So maybe in the future I will do that.
0:37:10I think I really wanna wait and see what happens
0:37:12with the Mac Pro next year first.
0:37:14If it turns out the Mac Pro is really dead
0:37:16and that the best we can ever hope for on desktops
0:37:19is iMac hardware that's 10 or 20% faster
0:37:22than the MacBook Pros of the day,
0:37:24then that might make a lot of sense actually for me.
0:37:27But I really-- - You won't be able
0:37:28to handle the fan noise, I guarantee it.
0:37:30Can you just think of that--
0:37:31- The iMac also has fan noise, that's the problem.
0:37:33- But not as loud as a 15 inch, no way.
0:37:35- Well, so again, I wanna see the new 15 inches first,
0:37:38I wanna have some experience with them hopefully
0:37:40to see how are these machines.
0:37:43They really did reduce the fan noise noticeably
0:37:46when they moved from the old crappy symmetrical fan blades
0:37:49to the Retina MacBook Pro in 2012.
0:37:52When Johnny first talked about the asymmetric fan blade,
0:37:55they showed the waveform.
0:37:56- Yeah, it's not louder, but the annoyingness of it,
0:38:01And the asymmetrical really helped with the annoyingness.
0:38:03It turned it more into a white noise thing,
0:38:05but I think it's still not a contest.
0:38:07I'm annoyed that I can hear the iMac at all.
0:38:09I'm annoyed at what I hear when I hear a laptop going with,
0:38:13I haven't heard the new ones obviously,
0:38:14but the asymmetrical fan ones, they still,
0:38:17I don't like the sound of a white noise generating machine.
0:38:20- Yeah, neither do I.
0:38:21And I don't like, but see, when my iMac fans spin up,
0:38:25I consider that something that I either need
0:38:27to put headphones on right now and stop hearing this,
0:38:29or I need to find the process that is using all my CPU power
0:38:32and just kill it.
0:38:34Because I really do not like hearing fan noise while I work.
0:38:37It's simple as that.
0:38:38So a Mac Pro is silent under load in most rooms,
0:38:42and that's one of the reasons I love it,
0:38:43and that's one of the things I will greatly miss
0:38:45if it is truly dead forever.
0:38:47Which, again, I think it's looking increasingly likely.
0:38:50We'll see what happens next year.
0:38:51But anyway, so all I was saying was
0:38:54it doesn't make a lot of sense for me to maintain
0:38:58two different four core mid-range to high-end machines
0:39:02from Apple when I occasionally need one on the road,
0:39:05but most of the time it's at my desk,
0:39:07it would make more sense to consolidate that
0:39:09into one computer.
0:39:10And maybe even pull an iMac/CGP Grey and have two laptops.
0:39:15Maybe I have that crazy one and also a very small one,
0:39:20like either an Escape or a MacBook One
0:39:22for the travel needs during which I don't need
0:39:25a lot of power and I just want to have
0:39:26the smallest thing possible.
0:39:27and that would hardly ever get upgraded.
0:39:29But that is a world that I probably should go to,
0:39:34but currently I am not going to that world
0:39:36because currently I'm still waiting out
0:39:38the potential Mac Pro of the future.
0:39:41So I will see.
0:39:42ATBTster is pointing out in the chat room
0:39:45that I should not forget that six core chips
0:39:48will be coming to the iMac consumer core i7 line,
0:39:53presumably in the near future.
0:39:56A six core iMac would be awesome.
0:39:59I would really prefer more.
0:40:01If I'm gonna upgrade from four, I want a bigger upgrade.
0:40:04I wanna go to eight or 12 even,
0:40:06or even more if I can get it.
0:40:08So it'd be nice to have even more,
0:40:10but we'll see.
0:40:12Again, this all depends on what the hardware brings
0:40:16over the next year or two,
0:40:17and whether Apple even makes computers
0:40:19that use these chips that are coming out.
0:40:21We don't even know that.
0:40:22So we'll see, time will tell.
0:40:24But right now I am not going all laptop.
0:40:27But all I was saying that if I were more sensible,
0:40:30it would probably be a better allocation of resources
0:40:33to just do that.
0:40:35Which is probably the reason
0:40:35why so many people do exactly that.
0:40:38- Indeed.
0:40:39All right, I just wanted to grumble at you publicly
0:40:41for a moment, so I feel much better now.
0:40:43Thanks everyone.
0:40:44- Anytime.
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0:41:56- Apple has released a new Mac book and things.
0:42:05There's a new design book and half of me thinks
0:42:11I really don't see a problem with it.
0:42:14And half of me thinks, my word,
0:42:16have they lost all sense of reality?
0:42:18and I haven't decided which one's which one's which.
0:42:21- Did anybody see this coming?
0:42:22- I didn't, for sure.
0:42:25- I think it's a totally reasonable
0:42:27and to be expected thing for them to do.
0:42:29In fact, I'm surprised they don't do more of it.
0:42:32I mean, they sell shirts with their things on them.
0:42:34They sell all sorts of merchandise
0:42:36with this Apple that has Apple stuff on it.
0:42:38They love having giant posters of all their,
0:42:42they're proud of their design.
0:42:44And this particular thing as sort of a capper
0:42:47to Johnny Ive's career at Apple, it makes total sense.
0:42:49I don't think it's all that weird.
0:42:51- There are a few things that are different about it.
0:42:53I mean, first of all, the t-shirts, mugs and everything,
0:42:56you can only buy at their company store
0:42:57or at their conference.
0:42:59So you can't just go into any Apple store
0:43:01or go online and order an Apple t-shirt.
0:43:04That's kind of a limited thing they keep
0:43:06only to their store.
0:43:08- I'm assuming this'll be limited too.
0:43:09How long do you think they'll sell this?
0:43:11They're not gonna be selling it for five years.
0:43:13Maybe Tim Cook says, "You know, we can keep selling
0:43:14"the same design book for 10 years,
0:43:16and they're out to lower the price.
0:43:17- Sure, but the other stuff is more like,
0:43:19it's like a gift shop at a museum.
0:43:21It's like I went to Apple to either WBC or to their campus,
0:43:25and so I got this expensive t-shirt because I went there.
0:43:29And that's a little bit more justifiable
0:43:32if you have a problem with this.
0:43:32By the way, I don't necessarily have a problem with this.
0:43:36I'm mostly indifferent on it.
0:43:37I mostly don't care that it exists.
0:43:39I do think it shows a few things worth considering,
0:43:43things like possible joining out of retirement.
0:43:46Overall though, it seems poorly timed.
0:43:49At a time when Apple is being criticized
0:43:52for neglecting a lot of their product line
0:43:56and their new release is being criticized
0:44:00for being an especially poor value for the money
0:44:03and they appear to have cut dongle prices
0:44:06in an effort to show maybe that they're not
0:44:09just trying to get a whole bunch of extra money
0:44:10from accessory sales.
0:44:12So it is kind of an unfortunate time,
0:44:15Even if you ignore the election, which I don't think you should, but even if you ignore that,
0:44:20this is kind of a weird time for Apple to release an incredibly self-congratulatory,
0:44:25highfalutin two to three hundred dollar book about themselves.
0:44:28It's just, it's a little bit poorly timed, I think.
0:44:31But even if you don't agree with that, if you set that aside, I think it's mostly fine.
0:44:35I do think it is one of many signs pointing to Johnny Ives probably not that far off departure
0:44:42or retirement from Apple, or maybe he'll just ascend
0:44:45further into the clouds of bizarre titles
0:44:47that mean he doesn't actually do any day-to-day work.
0:44:50But that might be the same thing, I don't know.
0:44:53But I'm not sure if I want one or not.
0:44:56I might be one of the ideal customers for it.
0:45:00I buy stupid, expensive things all the time.
0:45:02(laughs)
0:45:03And I like Apple stuff usually a lot.
0:45:06As I was looking, though, at some of the pages
0:45:08that they have on their sample site and everything,
0:45:10they just kind of make me sad because they show like,
0:45:14like on their store, the sample show the Mac Mini case
0:45:17and like the big cutting wheel, I'm sorry,
0:45:19I don't know the terms for these various manufacturing
0:45:21tools, like some giant spiky wheel that presumably
0:45:24carves out part of the inside of the Mac Mini case.
0:45:27And it's like, oh, that's really nice that you care so much
0:45:29about the Mac Mini that you'll take this picture
0:45:31of the machine that makes its case.
0:45:34What about the product?
0:45:34That's been pretty neglected pretty badly.
0:45:37Or it shows like a picture of the bottom assembly
0:45:42with the lid popping off of the previous generation
0:45:46non-retina MacBook Pros.
0:45:48It might even be the 101 exactly.
0:45:50And it shows the MacBook Pro bottom lid taken off
0:45:54and you have the removable battery
0:45:56and you have the removable upgradeable hard drive
0:45:58and it's like, oh yeah, remember when laptops
0:45:59were upgradeable and easily repaired?
0:46:02It's like, I think this book would mostly
0:46:05just make me sad, honestly, about either computers
0:46:10that Apple has neglected and that I am sad about,
0:46:13like the Mac Pro, which I assume is in there,
0:46:17or features of computers that are no longer present,
0:46:21that have been cut through the march of, quote,
0:46:24progress over the years, some of which is real progress,
0:46:26some of which is just cutting things.
0:46:28So I don't know how I feel about this for myself,
0:46:32but if other people wanna have this book and enjoy it,
0:46:35that's fine, really.
0:46:37Again, I do think the release is poorly timed,
0:46:39but other than that, I don't really have a problem with it.
0:46:43- I think I mostly agree, but I already have a copy.
0:46:45It's just called Iconic.
0:46:47(laughing)
0:46:48- I have Iconic somewhere, I think, too.
0:46:51I have the old Apple Design book from the '90s.
0:46:54It's called the, let me check the title again.
0:46:57- While you're checking, there is one nitpick I do wanna,
0:46:59I do want to not forget about though.
0:47:02And that is, so Steve Jobs' name is all over this book.
0:47:05His name's all over the press release.
0:47:07They very prominently dedicate it to him and everything.
0:47:10I think enough people have said that I don't need
0:47:13to say too much about that it's questionable
0:47:16whether Jobs would have actually approved this project
0:47:21and used it.
0:47:22I will say though that a lot of people keep saying
0:47:24that this project was started eight years ago
0:47:26and therefore that was back when Jobs was alive
0:47:28and therefore he must have implicitly approved it.
0:47:30And that's not entirely clear.
0:47:33When Johnny Ive gave the interview to W something,
0:47:36Wallpaper, whatever it was, I forget, I'm sorry,
0:47:38it mentioned that they started collecting the product
0:47:41to photograph eight years ago.
0:47:44That doesn't mean they started photographing
0:47:45for this specific project that was approved
0:47:47by Jobs eight years ago.
0:47:49So I do wanna make that clear,
0:47:50that we don't know that Jobs knew this at all.
0:47:53And I think, I can't imagine that he would have appreciated
0:47:58it, but it's always risky for tech people like us to say,
0:48:03well, Steve Jobs wouldn't have done this or wouldn't have
0:48:04liked this, 'cause you don't really know him.
0:48:06The guy changed his mind a lot and he's not here anymore
0:48:08to refute it, so it's not a great thing to rest on.
0:48:11But I do think plastering his name all over it
0:48:15is maybe not so great.
0:48:17- They just dedicated it to him.
0:48:18It's not like they're trying to build on his image
0:48:22to make to sell this book like the book sells itself on its merits. It's just dedicated
0:48:27to him. It's in the memory of their friend. I think that's fine. And if we can say one
0:48:31thing about this book, it is that Steve Jobs would like to have it in his house. Whether
0:48:36or not he thinks it's the product Apple should sell, I guarantee you he would love to have
0:48:40this book. He would sit there on his couch with his bare feet and leaf through it and
0:48:44look at the great work that he's done. Whether he thinks the things Apple should be selling
0:48:49is a whole other story where he thinks Apple should have a museum of all their old stuff
0:48:52there's a whole other story, but he so clearly took pride in all the products that are in
0:48:57this thing that he himself, just personally, would surely love to have the best possible
0:49:03photographs on the best possible paper made in Germany with a special gilding around the
0:49:08edges and he would love this book.
0:49:11This seems like a really cool thing to make for your employees, or to maybe sell for a
0:49:17limited time at your campus store.
0:49:20But to sell it as a whole product,
0:49:22I think that kind of raises the bar
0:49:24and raises the level of criticism a bit,
0:49:28a little bit unnecessarily maybe.
0:49:30But you know, 'cause I think it would be a lot cooler
0:49:33if this was a thing for all the employees
0:49:34that they just all got for free,
0:49:35which by the way, are they even getting it for free?
0:49:37Probably not, they're charging $200 for it.
0:49:39But imagine if they gave this to all the employees
0:49:42and the handful of Apple collectors who really want it
0:49:45would have to go find it on eBay or something like that.
0:49:47it would be so much cooler if you had one if that was the case. I don't know, it just
0:49:52seems like that might have been a better way to go here.
0:49:54Yeah, I tend to agree. So I just reached out to the bookcase behind me and grabbed my copy
0:50:00of "Iconic" and I started paging through it and I landed on page 130 of "Iconic" and
0:50:08it has a quote which I will read to you. "If you never change anything, then what you can
0:50:13really engineers kind of incremental. But when you're willing to change things, then
0:50:17you kind of open up a whole new world of design. This is Big Bob Mansfield at the launch of
0:50:22the 2012 MacBook Pro, and the accompanying picture is a MacBook Pro that has MagSafe,
0:50:28Ethernet, FireWire, Thunderbolt, two USB ports, an SD card slot, a line-in, and a headphone
0:50:34jack. I just thought that was kind of funny.
0:50:36That's pretty cool.
0:50:37So, yeah. So when you're willing to change things, then you open up a whole new world
0:50:41of design, like fewer ports.
0:50:44So the book next to me is called Apple Design, all one word, capital A, capital D, colon,
0:50:49the work of the Apple Industrial Design Group.
0:50:51And it's an older book, so it's got the stuff from before you guys were Mac users, it's
0:50:55like mostly the era, well, iconic spans the whole range.
0:50:58But anyway, it's definitely earlier than the stuff that's in this book.
0:51:03And I could say I would like to own this book too.
0:51:06I would totally like to own this book.
0:51:08But I wouldn't like to own it $300 worth at this point.
0:51:13And here's the thing, like it's not that $300 for a really super high quality photo book
0:51:17is that big a deal, it's just that for me personally with you know having just bought
0:51:21a monitor and PlayStation 4 Pro and all sorts of other stuff, I would spend $300 in this
0:51:28if it was like the making of the Star Wars books that I bought, which by the way weren't
0:51:31$300.
0:51:32Like basically if it was lots more words.
0:51:34Not that I don't like the pictures, I do, I want the pictures, but if it was the pictures,
0:51:39but also page upon page upon page of the designers, including Johnny himself, telling the story
0:51:46of how they came up with these designs in as much detail as they can possibly remember.
0:51:50Again, like the making of the Star Wars books, which are not first person accounts, but it's
0:51:53like someone researched and talked to all the people involved and tried to lay out,
0:51:57here's how each of the three original trilogy Star Wars movies was made from conception
0:52:02through to production and design, talking to all the people involved and getting quotes from them
0:52:06and putting it all together, that's what I would like to read. And my impression is this book is
0:52:10either entirely or at least mostly pictures and not so much about "Apple's gonna tell you, you
0:52:15know, how the sausage is made." I mean, I'm sure there's lots of pictures of prototypes and, you
0:52:19know, like things with a tool that Marco talked about or whatever, but it's not really like,
0:52:22"Tell us, how did you come up with this?" Because I would love to read that, but that is not this.
0:52:27And what I'm saying is basically if those words were in this book, I would pay $300 for it in a
0:52:31second but just the photos I I have a longing to own this book but cannot
0:52:37bring myself to part with $300 for it quite yet maybe maybe I'll break down
0:52:41depends on how long they sell this maybe I'll succumb to it at some point because
0:52:45I really do want this book I mean I have tons of books like this but boy $300
0:52:50that's tough and no I don't want the small one because come on that's nothing
0:52:52why are there two sizes like that's such a good thing just make it one they should
0:52:57have called the big one the plus. Some people want a larger book.
0:53:00Obviously. The big one is huge though. The big one, I think, I'm thinking about if I
0:53:04had that in my house, how the hell would I even fit it on my shelves? I don't think I
0:53:06even have any shelves. The Making of Star Wars books are a little bit too big for my
0:53:09shelves too, but you know, if it's photos, come on, you gotta get the big one.
0:53:13Yeah, I just gotta say, this iconic book, I hadn't paged through it in a long time.
0:53:18Man, is this a nice book. It really honestly is. And it's cheap now. It's like 50 bucks
0:53:23on Amazon right now. It's definitely worth it.
0:53:25I wonder if I can get the business rep discount on the book.
0:53:29- 15% off your $300 book.
0:53:31(laughing)
0:53:32So my Apple design book is right next to
0:53:34the Art of Kiki's Delivery Service,
0:53:36The Complete Works of Larry L. Moore.
0:53:38What else do I have?
0:53:40A Hyrule Historia, Legend of Zelda book,
0:53:43all of which are about the same size,
0:53:44big kind of glossy photo book things,
0:53:46but none of which cost $300.
0:53:49- No, I mean, people who know more about art books,
0:53:52and as you said, Jon,
0:53:54I don't think it's outrageously priced for what it is,
0:53:58but it certainly doesn't contribute,
0:54:00or it certainly doesn't help the recent,
0:54:03or possibly the forever reputation of Apple
0:54:06for this elitist company making expensive things
0:54:09that only for rich people.
0:54:10This doesn't really help that image at all.
0:54:14This really, I don't know.
0:54:15Again, this is not a big deal.
0:54:17I don't feel that strongly about this book either way.
0:54:19I might even buy one, who knows?
0:54:20But I do think it was a little poorly timed
0:54:24for image sake, I think.
0:54:26- And see, the weird thing about this book is,
0:54:29I like the idea that Apple itself is the one doing it,
0:54:32because as great as iconic is
0:54:34in the Apple design books or whatever,
0:54:35Apple presumably, I mean,
0:54:39you would think they would have access to all this stuff,
0:54:40but apparently they didn't
0:54:41and had to go out and buy it or whatever.
0:54:43But either way, like, they,
0:54:45Apple's really good at taking pictures of its products.
0:54:48They have the most experience of anybody in the entire world
0:54:51taking pictures of Apple products,
0:54:52because that's what they do,
0:54:53and they do it really, really well.
0:54:55And because they're all obsessive, detailed people
0:54:58about like the printing and the color and the paper,
0:55:00I bet it's a really nice book, right?
0:55:03But the one thing that Apple can bring to this book
0:55:07above and beyond those two things that I just mentioned,
0:55:11that nobody else can, is that they have the best access
0:55:15to the people who were involved in making these.
0:55:17Some of those people may be gone,
0:55:18although supposedly there's very little turnover
0:55:20in Johnny Ive's little design group there.
0:55:22That's the value they can bring to this.
0:55:24The whole angle you're getting at, Mark,
0:55:25was like Apple's making a book about how great they are.
0:55:28That's right, they're making a book about themselves
0:55:29and saying we are awesome.
0:55:30Or just look at all these cool things that we made.
0:55:32Which I guess is okay, but if you wanna blunt that,
0:55:34it's like don't just make it,
0:55:36look at these awesome things that we made,
0:55:38bring the value that only you have.
0:55:39Tell us the stories, people who worked on these products.
0:55:42Tell us about how you made them,
0:55:43because no one else can tell us how they made them.
0:55:45Other people can take pictures of them.
0:55:47Other people can make a big glossy photo book.
0:55:49Other people could probably find the right kind of paper
0:55:52and do the cool printing and do all the things,
0:55:54but nobody but you guys can tell us the story
0:55:57of how these products were made.
0:55:58And they're not doing that.
0:55:59So they're like saying how great they are,
0:56:01but like, I don't want to tell you too much about it.
0:56:04Just look at this stuff.
0:56:04We're pretty great, huh?
0:56:05Nevermind how it was made.
0:56:06And that definitely shades more into the,
0:56:09that makes it less forgivable
0:56:12as an act of self-congratulations,
0:56:15because if you are describing how you did it,
0:56:17you're not just congratulating yourself.
0:56:18Even if the whole book is like,
0:56:19we had these hard problems and we solved them
0:56:21because we were super smart.
0:56:22You're passing on your knowledge.
0:56:24You're telling the rest of the world,
0:56:26learn from our lessons,
0:56:28which you can still do with a lot of ego
0:56:30and back padding,
0:56:32but I think that would offset the,
0:56:35look how great we are angle of it.
0:56:36And like you said,
0:56:38and like how many people said,
0:56:40and like we talked about with the actual,
0:56:41the new MacBook Pros,
0:56:43the past several shows,
0:56:45it's not so much the thing itself,
0:56:46it's the context into which it's introduced.
0:56:48And so, like Margaret said,
0:56:49the timing is bad.
0:56:50And at this point, almost anything you're introduced
0:56:53into the context of a certain set of grumpy Apple fans
0:56:57is going to be looked upon with a very critical eye.
0:57:02And people are generally in a bad mood
0:57:05for reasons that some of which
0:57:06may be outside Apple's control.
0:57:08Whatever, if they've been building towards this
0:57:11for eight years, fine, whatever, release it.
0:57:13Like holiday season, it's a good gift idea
0:57:16for the Apple nerd in your life.
0:57:20I don't fault them, I don't think it's that big a deal.
0:57:22I just wish it wasn't $300 'cause I really want this book.
0:57:25(laughing)
0:57:26- You know, and one thing, I think you nailed it about,
0:57:29like, you know, part of the sense
0:57:30that it rubs people the wrong way
0:57:31is the fact that there is, there are, you know,
0:57:33no words or as you said, like, you know,
0:57:35they have access to the people.
0:57:38They could have added a human, a more human touch
0:57:40and it seems like they, I mean, we haven't read the book yet
0:57:44but from the few sample pages we've seen,
0:57:46it really does seem like they didn't, you know,
0:57:47there's no words in it.
0:57:49And I think if I had to summarize, I guess,
0:57:54the main disappointment I have with Apple recently,
0:57:58which I think a lot of people feel
0:57:59but might not have put into words,
0:58:01is that it seems to just lack humanity recently.
0:58:06This might be a Steve to Tim thing, I don't know.
0:58:10I haven't given a ton of thought to this yet.
0:58:12It's hard to put it into words.
0:58:13But Steve, even though we knew he could be cold and ruthless
0:58:18ruthless to people when he had to be, his public persona, which really did reflect upon
0:58:25the whole company to the public, was really quite warm and human. And with the transition
0:58:32to Tim Cook's Apple and Johnny Ive's Apple, which is, you know, that's really what this
0:58:37is these days, Apple, the public image that we get, even though most of the same people
0:58:43are still there, but the public image that is shown to us, what gets out, is a lot more
0:58:48cold and the humanity has been stripped out of it.
0:58:52And I think part of what bugged people about things
0:58:55like removing the startup chime on the new MacBook Pros
0:58:57and removing the light up logo on the back
0:59:00is like that's a little bit more of this humanity
0:59:02that's just being pulled out of the products
0:59:05and we don't see warmth and humanity
0:59:09as much as we used to anymore.
0:59:10A promo video showing what people are doing
0:59:13with the products is different.
0:59:14- Do you think it's humanity?
0:59:15- I do, I do think it's humanity.
0:59:17I think we don't--
0:59:18- I would say, you don't think whimsy is a better word?
0:59:21'Cause a whim, there's a stronger case for whimsy
0:59:23because humanity, I think of like,
0:59:25Tim Cook is much more into, you know,
0:59:28the human aspects or social aspects
0:59:32of both the products and the company
0:59:34than Steve Jobs ever was.
0:59:35And Tim Cook, in the Tim Cook era,
0:59:37he's the one who's constantly starting presentations
0:59:39with videos about accessibility
0:59:42and people who are being, you know,
0:59:44human story of being empowered by Apple products. I would call that human too, but whimsical is,
0:59:51you know, where like it is dorky. Maybe, you know, whimsy is just like the little happy Mac and the
0:59:59chime and the little poof animation and stuff. Silly things like that seem to not be to Johnny
1:00:06Ive's taste because he's not into the poof, right? He's not into the happy Mac, the smile,
1:00:12and the chime, he's into the iPhone that doesn't even have a logo that you can see when you
1:00:16look at it, right?
1:00:18And Tim Cook is deferring to Johnny Ive in that way, so I think you're right to refer
1:00:21to it as the Tim Cook/Johnny Ive Apple.
1:00:24So there is definitely less sense of whimsy.
1:00:27And whimsy can be seen as warmth and his design aesthetic can be thought of as cold, but I
1:00:31think Tim Cook's Apple and Tim Cook specifically are all about humanity, just not about dorkiness
1:00:39and whimsy.
1:00:40- Yeah, again, I'm not saying that the company,
1:00:43'cause the same people are mostly there, right,
1:00:46especially at the upper levels,
1:00:47not a lot has changed there.
1:00:49We know that they do good, these are good people,
1:00:53and they do good things for the world,
1:00:55but it doesn't come across, the amount of warmth,
1:01:00and maybe humanity might not be exactly the right word,
1:01:03I do think whimsy's part of it,
1:01:04but I don't think whimsy covers all of what I'm missing.
1:01:07- What about the ads, like when they show,
1:01:09- A lot of their recent ads have been all about
1:01:12showing people using the product.
1:01:13Remember the one with the kid with his nose
1:01:15buried in his phone during the holidays,
1:01:17the Christmas thing, and at the end he's made the video
1:01:19of them making the stuff.
1:01:20Or just like the people who, with your watch,
1:01:22you get up and it's early in the morning,
1:01:24it's still dark out, you lay up your sneakers,
1:01:25you put on your watch, you go out running,
1:01:27or you're running through the rain
1:01:28with your now water-resistant phone.
1:01:30Their ads, even more than they used to be,
1:01:33have been less about glorifying the objects
1:01:35as these beautiful totems of technology
1:01:37as like, look how smooth and sleek it is,
1:01:38which they still do in the presentations to us,
1:01:40but on television, it's all about the people.
1:01:43It's all about, I am a runner, I like to take photographs,
1:01:46I'm on a family vacation, and buy this device
1:01:49and your kid will look like a sulky teenager,
1:01:52really, he will be a loving, wonderful, creative child,
1:01:55which is false advertising, but anyway.
1:01:57(laughing)
1:01:59He'll just sulk and won't actually make a video for you.
1:02:01He's just texting his friends all the time.
1:02:04The ad seems to be focusing on, again,
1:02:06the humanity of, like, that it's not about the product,
1:02:11it's about the people
1:02:12and what the products enable the people to do.
1:02:14So again, that's, you know,
1:02:15Apple chooses what kind of ads it makes,
1:02:16like the advertising company makes them,
1:02:18but Apple can give them the direction.
1:02:20And it is less like that, you know,
1:02:22in the Steve Jobs era, you had a series of commercials
1:02:25that were all about showing you the hardware,
1:02:27like the LifeSavers iMacs flying across the screen.
1:02:29Look, they're shiny and colored,
1:02:30and look at the, when the iMac SE came out,
1:02:33it's all sleek and graphitey, like,
1:02:36Those were more obsessed with the objects
1:02:38'cause that was all about like,
1:02:39hey, hardware can be fashion and look at these things.
1:02:43And I think it started to shift with the iPod
1:02:44where it was like, yeah, there's silhouettes dancing
1:02:47and you can see the iPod with the white cord,
1:02:48but it's all about people dancing and music.
1:02:50And at this point, they're selling phones
1:02:53by showing you people jogging, right?
1:02:55So it is so far from,
1:02:56I think it is definitely a very human approach.
1:03:00But again, I would say that the product designs themselves
1:03:04and what things the company decides to do
1:03:08definitely seem less whimsical and less dorky
1:03:11and I can see that as being more cold and less warm.
1:03:14- The ads, you're right, the ads are fine,
1:03:16but they're ads, they're commercials.
1:03:18I'm referring to mostly the products
1:03:21and then some also of the presentations
1:03:24by the actual humans on stage at the events.
1:03:28So again, it's hard to not make this about Steve
1:03:32because Steve was really good at really being personable
1:03:37up there on stage, and whether it was rehearsed
1:03:39or fake or real or whatever, I don't know.
1:03:42It didn't matter.
1:03:43It really did come across as genuine and real and warm.
1:03:47And that's what I miss, both on stage,
1:03:50I don't care about the videos,
1:03:51the use of more and more videos actually, to me,
1:03:53feels colder, it feels more artificial.
1:03:56But that's beside the point for now.
1:03:59All I'm saying is I miss this level of warmth
1:04:03that we used to get from them in these presentations,
1:04:06and then I think the whimsy in the product is part of that.
1:04:10That showed in the products,
1:04:12and it seems like modern Apple is all about
1:04:15really editing that out as part of a march
1:04:18towards quote simplifying or quote progress,
1:04:21but we're losing a lot of that,
1:04:24and we don't seem to be gaining it in many areas anymore.
1:04:27it seemed like the company just moved on past that.
1:04:30It's just now, it's just a lot more like cold
1:04:32and almost robotic.
1:04:34So this book coming out with all pictures
1:04:37of Johnny Ives' robotic tools in stark white backgrounds
1:04:42with no words, I think is kind of like a culmination
1:04:46of that cold process.
1:04:49And that's what kind of rubs me the wrong way
1:04:50about the book and about Apple today,
1:04:53if I had to summarize it down.
1:04:55Again, I'm sorry if I'm not expressing this well.
1:04:59This is really still a very squishy thought in my head,
1:05:02but I'm trying to put into words a complex feeling
1:05:07that I've been feeling over a while,
1:05:08but I just miss that warmth that we used to get,
1:05:12whether it was real or not,
1:05:14from both Steve and the products,
1:05:16that I think we're really missing a lot of that recently.
1:05:19- So if you were to get this book,
1:05:20and if it was chronological, which I'm not sure that it is,
1:05:22but if it is chronological, you could flip through it
1:05:25and watch the whimsy slowly drain out of the product
1:05:27as you start with Tangerine IMAX
1:05:31and all these brightly colored things that like,
1:05:34the toilet seat eye books and all these things
1:05:37that just look so exciting and Dr. Suessy
1:05:40and slowly but surely everything turns silver and glass
1:05:44and uniform and not shiny and not matte
1:05:48and just in betweeny and just it smooths out.
1:05:54Which I like both those aesthetics.
1:05:56That's why I think this book highlights some of Apple's best work in terms of industrial
1:06:01design because it does include all the way from the vibrancy of the original iMacs and
1:06:09even the one with the big neck and all the other stuff all the way up to the modern era
1:06:15of everything being sleek and clean.
1:06:17Those are both great aesthetics, but chronologically speaking, you can see the trend.
1:06:23I could just read the book backwards and make myself feel really happy.
1:06:25You could Benjamin Button it.
1:06:29I think I agree with you Marco.
1:06:32I just can't shake this feeling that Apple is reluctantly moving closer and closer to
1:06:39being the IBM that they fought so hard against when you and I were like really little.
1:06:45Let's not go crazy here.
1:06:47No, I don't think they're there, but if you look at the IBM of the early to mid 80s, probably even
1:06:55late 80s, it was not boring, but certainly it did not have whimsy. And I would not say that Apple's
1:07:02products today are boring by any stretch of the imagination, but I agree that they've lost some
1:07:07of that. And I actually think humanity is a good word for it, if a bit overblown, but I can't come
1:07:15up with a better one, and I think I like humanity more than whimsy, but anyway, it just doesn't
1:07:19feel as happy-go-lucky as it used to.
1:07:24And I think part of that is no longer being the underdog and is now being king of the
1:07:28hill, which maybe that's our perception.
1:07:32Maybe it's that because we perceive them as king of the hill, we perceive them as boring
1:07:36and they're anything but.
1:07:38But I don't know, I don't think that's the case.
1:07:40And I agree with you, and it's funny because on the one side I love the look of the new
1:07:44Macbook Pro, at least in photographs. I haven't seen one in person yet, but in
1:07:47photographs it looks phenomenal. I love it. I think it looks really great, and I
1:07:53think that's in part because, you know, a very black aesthetic appeals to me. But
1:07:58yet I miss the fun of all these different colored iMacs. You know, the
1:08:04computers that I saw running around campus when I was in school in the early
1:08:072000s, they just looked fun. And I wouldn't say a new Macbook Pro looks fun.
1:08:11It looks really damn good. It looks more aesthetically good. I'd say than perhaps any other
1:08:18Laptop on the market today and in fact I've said before and I'll say again this iPhone 7
1:08:23I'm holding in my hands right now this this matte black iPhone 7. I think it's the best looking iPhone
1:08:29I've seen yet. However, I
1:08:31Wouldn't say it looks fun despite it looking really good and I miss that kind of fun aspect
1:08:38- Yeah, and I'm not saying the products are bad.
1:08:41The products are in many ways better than ever now.
1:08:46By most measures, most of the products are better than ever.
1:08:50They're still good products.
1:08:52In many ways, they're still great products.
1:08:54But again, it's this feeling that I'm missing
1:08:58that we used to have here.
1:09:00And maybe I'm just old and jaded and boring, I don't know.
1:09:04Maybe I'm just mad about the Mac Pro still, I don't know.
1:09:06But it just feels like I'm missing this feeling.
1:09:10- I'm not, well I am old and jaded,
1:09:12but I'm not jaded about the Mac Pro specifically.
1:09:14- There we go.
1:09:15- And I'm not jaded about the MacBook Pro specifically.
1:09:18And I do largely agree with you that it just,
1:09:21it's not as fun as it once was.
1:09:23And again, maybe is that just by virtue of them
1:09:26being no longer the underdog?
1:09:28So you know, it's fun to root for the underdog.
1:09:31It's not fun to root for the king of the hill.
1:09:32So maybe it's misplaced, maybe the problem is us.
1:09:35But I agree with you, nevertheless.
1:09:38I think the design trend that is described from the more whimsical computers that varied more
1:09:44widely in shape and color and texture and everything about them to the current design is a natural
1:09:49consequence of the advance of the technology. Because as we acquire the technology to make the
1:09:56products that we have now that, you know, in the case of eye devices are essentially rectangles
1:10:00that are screens that get increasingly thinner, and for the case of laptops, a screen rectangle
1:10:06and then a rectangle with a keyboard and an increasingly large trackpad, your options
1:10:10for industrial design start to be in conflict with the advances that you're, you know, reaping
1:10:17the benefits of actually being able to make it smaller. Like, if you look at the size
1:10:20of the plastic that surrounds the screen on the toilet seat iMacs, it is vast, right?
1:10:27that allows you to make this cool-looking, strange oblong kind of purse-like design and
1:10:31everything that gives you the room to make those big scoops and colors and contrasts.
1:10:36But there's no more room for that in a world where it's basically a screen with the margins
1:10:41slowly shrinking around it, or like the laptops getting thinner and thinner and smaller and
1:10:46tighter and tighter.
1:10:47And why fight that?
1:10:49The correct direction is, aesthetically speaking, to say embrace that and embrace an aesthetic
1:10:55that can work with increasingly svelte devices.
1:11:00And that is yet another reason to add to the list
1:11:03of why the Mac Pro would be great,
1:11:04because the Mac Pro does not have a screen on it.
1:11:07You do have the freedom to make it,
1:11:09they can make it shaped like a soccer ball,
1:11:11it can be shaped like a spiral,
1:11:12apparently it can be shaped like a garbage can,
1:11:14it can be shaped like a cheese grater.
1:11:15It actually gives them the most options
1:11:19in terms of industrial design,
1:11:20because they are no longer constrained
1:11:21by the fact that you have to carry it
1:11:23and that making it smaller and thinner and lighter is such a benefit in the long run
1:11:27that they can't afford to put a giant plastic handle on it and a huge three inch border
1:11:30around the entire screen because that's ridiculous, like no one wants that anymore.
1:11:34It looks old and it is old and it's bad.
1:11:36But when it sits on your desk or under your desk, a lot more options open up and so it's
1:11:40just another reason that it would be a shame if they totally gave up that form factor.
1:11:44Or if they said, even in that form factor, you want it to be as small and minimal as
1:11:49possible and so that's how you get the current Mac Mini and the Apple TV which are just the
1:11:52most, you know, it's not appropriate, I think, for those things to be, well maybe the Apple
1:11:56TV because that should be boring because you don't even see it, but the Mac Mini, you can
1:12:00have a little bit more fun with that maybe. Put some vents and strakes on it, make it
1:12:04look like a Ferrari, I don't know. But there's no reason for it to be as boring as it is.
1:12:08But there are reasons for the phone to be as boring as it is and for the laptops to
1:12:11be not as boring, but like for them to look like they do, I think there are very good
1:12:15reasons for them to do that and I think if they had tried to keep the old aesthetic while
1:12:19going along with the market technology that allows you to make them thinner and lighter,
1:12:23it would be a bad tension between those two things. You can't make a modern laptop that
1:12:28looks like the toilet seat iBook. You just can't. It's not the right design approach.
1:12:32Back then it was, now it's not. Now you could take the current ones and make them in candy
1:12:37apple red with the same form factor, making it like polished glossy candy apple red, and
1:12:41that would be fun, but it's still, you know, like, color and texture is basically all they
1:12:47have left to play with because shape-wise it's not like they're gonna be adding fins and strakes,
1:12:51you know, tail fins on the next iPad Pro or whatever.
1:12:54Yeah, I agree. Like, why couldn't we have all the colors of the 5C on the 7, you know? Because
1:13:03those were fun, I thought. And I think they appealed to a lot of people that perhaps weren't
1:13:08as, you know, technically minded in terms of stats and like having to have the latest and greatest.
1:13:14I still see 5Cs floating around from time to time, so why not have that color range
1:13:19on the top of the line phone?
1:13:21Well, because it's not proper?
1:13:22I mean, I don't know.
1:13:23I just, I do kind of miss that.
1:13:25Even though, even though on the one side I wouldn't ever pick any of those, I guess this
1:13:30is my Halo car.
1:13:31Like, I don't really see the need for a Mac Pro, and I'm not trying to open up that conversation
1:13:34again, but to me I don't see the need for a Mac Pro.
1:13:37But I do like—I would notice an array of colors on the iPhone 7 and be pleased that
1:13:44they exist even though there was no freaking way I would choose anything but matte black
1:13:48or maybe jet black.
1:13:49I like the Naked Robotic Core again.
1:13:51It's like, in real life, you see phones that are all sorts of colors.
1:13:54That's just not the color of the phone.
1:13:55It's the color of people's cases.
1:13:56I see phone cases.
1:13:58It's a huge range of colors, textures, sizes, features, ones that you can put your credit
1:14:02card into, ones that have a place for a stylist to go into.
1:14:04Like, there's huge things with mirrors on the back of them.
1:14:07They just think clamshell ones, ones with covers, you know, just huge range, but that's
1:14:12Apple's not doing any of that.
1:14:14They're just giving you the acrobatic core.
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1:15:37- We've been putting off for a long time
1:15:42talking about this Microsoft Surface Studio.
1:15:47And I think that we should probably talk
1:15:50about the Nintendo Switch.
1:15:51(laughing)
1:15:54We don't actually have to do that, but I couldn't resist.
1:15:56- We should do the Surface Studio first.
1:15:57And in fact, it's been so long
1:16:00since the Surface Studio event, whatever the heck that was,
1:16:03I think we need the Chief Summarizer and Chief to remind everyone what the hell the Microsoft
1:16:07Surface Studio is. What if the Chief Summarizer and Chief doesn't remember anymore? No, I can
1:16:13wing it. So this was, I don't recall exactly what it was, but it was a few weeks ago that Microsoft
1:16:20had some sort of product demo where they debuted the Surface Studio, which at first appeared to be
1:16:31an iMac. In many ways it just seemed like an iMac. An iMac, but, well, I guess I should say an iMac and
1:16:36a Mac Mini, right? Because it's the screen of an iMac, it appeared, it's 28 inches, and this, and the
1:16:44computer bits are in a base that looks very much like a Mac Mini. It's all black and aluminum, or at
1:16:52least aluminum colored, and it all looks very snazzy, and I don't mean that sarcastically, it really
1:16:56honestly does look good. And at first it was like, "Okay, great, you're doing an iMac,
1:17:01woo-woo." But then they mentioned that, "Oh, this is a touchscreen, a 28-inch touchscreen."
1:17:06And suddenly people start to go, "Hmm, okay, tell me more." And then the real party trick
1:17:13happened, which was Microsoft explained why there are two arms going from the Mac Mini
1:17:18to the iMac, and those arms allow you, from what they showed, allow you to very effortlessly
1:17:27turn this iMac into kind of an easel.
1:17:31So it's at a very, very shallow angle, such that you could use it as though it's a writing
1:17:36surface.
1:17:37And it has with it their equivalent of an Apple Pencil.
1:17:40And even more importantly, it has—or maybe not more importantly, but differently—it
1:17:46also has a surface dial. And so what this is, is a little puck sort of thing. It's actually
1:17:53not that dissimilar from the puck mouse that everyone hated, but much taller. And you can
1:17:58sit that on your desk and you can spin it in order to, I don't know, change volume or
1:18:02get different, you know, tools as you're using the pen. But where it gets even cooler still,
1:18:08and you have to understand that this hinge that they have genuinely is really neat. It
1:18:12It looks really, really clever.
1:18:14But what's cooler still about the Surface Dial, this puck, is that you can drop this
1:18:18thing right on the display, and the display recognizes that it's there and where it is,
1:18:23and allows you to treat that as another control surface.
1:18:27So in the way that the naked robotic core is the most pure realization of what somebody
1:18:34would want for a computing device, of what Apple would want for an iPhone, I think not
1:18:40Not that this is a naked robotic core, but I feel like this is the most pure realization
1:18:44of what Microsoft hopes for, for this world that to me is a little bizarro, where you
1:18:51have a touch-based or touch-permitted, if nothing else, desktop OS.
1:18:57So Microsoft's strategy for many years now with its Windows thing, especially as the
1:19:02Windows phone stuff has been fading, has been to have a single OS for all their platforms.
1:19:09And because that single OS has part of its family tree is phones and tablet type devices
1:19:14that of course it supports touch, which is why you can do touch in Windows with Windows
1:19:198 that started, and they're up to Windows 10 now.
1:19:22And so they've been changing Windows to be an interface that you can use with a mouse
1:19:26and a keyboard, you can use with a pen, you can use with your fingers.
1:19:29And they've been doing this for a long time, and to varying results.
1:19:32I know some people have the Microsoft Surface, their tablet product that is basically like,
1:19:36You can use it like a PC with a keyboard attached to it because it's got a hinge thing.
1:19:39You can use it kind of like a tablet.
1:19:41If you're using it like a laptop, you can also just poke your finger at the screen,
1:19:44which I'm sure we've all seen this.
1:19:46Many people just expect to be able to do that, especially younger people or anyone even who
1:19:49just uses a touch device for a long time.
1:19:52They'll switch from an environment where they're using a tablet or a phone to a laptop and
1:19:55instinctively touch the screen.
1:19:56I know I used to do it with Kindles before the touchscreen Kindles.
1:20:00Because I spent so much time with iPads, I would touch the screen to try to do something
1:20:04on a Kindle.
1:20:05would happen because they were totally inert, like there was no—this is before the touch-sensitive
1:20:08ones—it is natural to get into that habit, and Microsoft has built an entire interface
1:20:13strategy around the idea that all forms of input are welcome, that it should be supported.
1:20:18They've been changing Windows to not require a perfectly precise mouse pointer or even
1:20:24a stylus to do things, to try to make bigger, chunkier controls and gestures and stuff like
1:20:29that.
1:20:30And this Surface Studio is the biggest this has gotten because previously it was like,
1:20:35yeah, you get tablets and you got these convertible laptop-y things that are like a tablet with
1:20:38a keyboard and yeah, of course you can touch the screen and they have the pen input and
1:20:43all that stuff.
1:20:44But this is like 28 inches is like, this is not a big tablet.
1:20:48This is a full size, bigger than most people have because most people do not have 28 inch
1:20:52screens on their PCs.
1:20:54Full size personal computer running Windows.
1:20:57Doesn't pretend to be a tablet.
1:20:58You can't take it off and carry it like a tablet.
1:21:00It's not a big phone.
1:21:02It is a personal computer that has all the normal input modes
1:21:07you'd want, including a pen, but then also accepts not just
1:21:12touch, but like-- stop thinking of it as like I'm touching
1:21:15the screen, but more like removing indirection.
1:21:19Because the mouse and the keyboard
1:21:20are indirect input devices.
1:21:22And they are wonderful input devices,
1:21:25and they're very precise.
1:21:27and especially the mouse I feel like is the least indirect of indirect-imposed devices
1:21:31because if you've used a mouse for any appreciable amount of time, the indirection disappears
1:21:37very quickly.
1:21:38You don't feel like you're driving the mouse, versus like say you had a joystick.
1:21:41If you had a joystick, you would feel like you're driving the mouse cursor around the
1:21:44screen like it's a little car to get to the things you want.
1:21:47But if you have a mouse, you just basically feel like you're grabbing things on the screen.
1:21:50And yes, it is indirect, you're not touching it, it's not as direct as touching the screen
1:21:54as anyone who uses an iPad or an iPhone knows,
1:21:56not that kind of direct,
1:21:57but it is like really good video game controls
1:22:00in that very quickly it disappears
1:22:02and you stop thinking about the control
1:22:04and just start thinking about the task.
1:22:06But the ultimate direct input is like literal direct input
1:22:09as in you see something on the screen,
1:22:12you manipulate it on the screen
1:22:13with your hands and your fingers or your pen,
1:22:15like the same way you would in the pre-computer age
1:22:18if you're doing something that involves
1:22:21putting marks on a piece of paper
1:22:22or shuffling things around,
1:22:24put marks on the piece of paper or shuffle things around.
1:22:26Like do it, don't move something that moves another thing
1:22:29on a screen that represents the things you're moving around.
1:22:31Just get right on that screen.
1:22:32And this thing tilting down to like a drafting table
1:22:35type angle, saying like, if you're not doing text input,
1:22:40you're not writing a program, but instead you're doing
1:22:43anything having to do with visual arts
1:22:45or anything like that, turn it down,
1:22:48set aside your keyboard and your mouse for now,
1:22:50and just get right on there on that screen.
1:22:52It's a huge screen, just get right on there.
1:22:53you got a pen, you got your fingers,
1:22:55you got the little dialy thing.
1:22:56I can imagine them adding more types of tools to that.
1:22:59That to me is the culmination of their strategy
1:23:04of allowing all forms of input by saying,
1:23:07here's a form of input.
1:23:08Not only do we accept all forms of input,
1:23:10it's like, oh, you can't decide,
1:23:11you should concentrate on one.
1:23:11It's kind of weird to type and then use a mouse,
1:23:13but also touch a screen and make up your mind.
1:23:14Am I clicking the button with the mouse cursor?
1:23:16Am I touching it with my finger?
1:23:17Am I drawing with a pen? What am I doing?
1:23:19There are many tasks in which directly interacting
1:23:22with a gigantic screen is the best interface.
1:23:25The task where you put aside all those other tools
1:23:29and say, I just want to get right to it.
1:23:30And obviously they're showing art and stuff like that.
1:23:32It's the most obvious one.
1:23:34And this is their first crack at this,
1:23:35so maybe it's not as good as it could be.
1:23:37People have said that there's too much parallax
1:23:39because your pen is too far away from where the pixels are.
1:23:43And that there's lag in some of the applications.
1:23:44But I really feel like this is almost inevitably
1:23:49the future of digital art,
1:23:51whether Microsoft is going to be the future of digital,
1:23:54I don't know.
1:23:54But we've gone through the whole thing of using mice
1:23:58to using tablets that are an indirect input device
1:24:02to the Wacom Cintiq, which is like a tablet
1:24:04that's also a screen.
1:24:06It's like, just keep going,
1:24:08because people love all those tools
1:24:09and they get used to those tools.
1:24:11But direct input, if you can raise a generation
1:24:14with the expectation that you do your artwork
1:24:15on a giant 28-inch monitor by directly manipulating it,
1:24:20that's gonna win in the end,
1:24:22whether it's Microsoft or somebody else.
1:24:24And Microsoft getting there first is, it's nice to see,
1:24:29even if this is a product that is not great,
1:24:31and it should be worrying to Apple
1:24:33because Apple doesn't have anything to compete with this,
1:24:37like at all.
1:24:39And I don't think Apple can say,
1:24:40"We really believe that the future of doing digital art
1:24:43"is using a Cintiq,"
1:24:45because Apple doesn't make those either.
1:24:47"We really believe the future of art is using a mouse
1:24:49or doing everything on, you know, they have iPads.
1:24:52All right, so where's your 28-inch iPad that doesn't,
1:24:54that you need to plug into the wall?
1:24:56Like whatever Apple's gonna do,
1:24:57I'm not saying they have to make Macs touch screen
1:24:58or anything, but if they care at all,
1:25:00which maybe they don't, about the creative arts
1:25:03that involve drawing things, even things from like,
1:25:06I can imagine CAD or architectural drawings,
1:25:08not just fine arts and illustration and stuff like that,
1:25:10they need to be doing something about this.
1:25:15And I was so excited when they came up with the iPad probe,
1:25:17it was like, yeah, that's what I was talking about.
1:25:18You need a really big iPad.
1:25:19And if you go back to listen to all those shows from years and years ago, I think at
1:25:24some point I did talk about the whole drafting table thing.
1:25:26I think we talked about it on this very podcast, but also on Hypercritical.
1:25:30This is it.
1:25:31Microsoft made it before Apple did.
1:25:32Apple did make their iPad bigger, but they took a long time to do it, and they didn't
1:25:35make it bigger, bigger.
1:25:37And the idea of an iPad that you can't take off your desk, I remember being laughed at
1:25:40perhaps on this show, perhaps on other ones, like, "Well, what the hell's the point of
1:25:42an iPad if you can't move it anywhere?"
1:25:44This is the point.
1:25:45This is the thing.
1:25:46So I am super proud of Microsoft for making this.
1:25:50I hope they keep at it.
1:25:52I hope they don't say, "Well, not a lot of people bought these," because I guarantee
1:25:55you not a lot of people are going to buy this because it's really expensive and it's like
1:25:57the first generation product.
1:25:59And truth be told, most people don't do fine arts on their computer, right?
1:26:02But I think this is the right idea for that class of problems.
1:26:07And if Apple cares about that class of problems, if Apple cares about keeping those creatives,
1:26:11I think they totally think they should because they are another branch of sort of the founding
1:26:16bedrock of Apple's products like creative professionals. They need to start putting
1:26:23the air pump into those iPads and cranking it up pronto because if they don't, someone
1:26:29else is going to get there first.
1:26:30Do you have any idea how much I wanted Reebok pumps as a kid? My goodness, I wanted those
1:26:35so bad. You know, I don't know. I really, I really admire this. Like you said, Jon, I also think that
1:26:43this solves a class of problems that I just don't have, which, which, I mean, you kind of said as
1:26:48well. But I, I have a Slack team that I'm in that's a handful of people that are either current or
1:26:56former employees of my last employer, the consulting gig. And we were actually, I feel like
1:27:02we have very cyclical conversations and one of them is, "Oh, are touchscreen devices stupid
1:27:08or not?" And since most of these people are Windows developers, most of them have touchscreen
1:27:13Windows laptops, and all of them swear, "Oh my god, Casey, you have no idea, it's so good."
1:27:18And that very well could be the case. Maybe it is that good. But having used a handful
1:27:23of touchscreen laptops, admittedly, very, very briefly, I have yet to really have it
1:27:29click. I've yet to say, "Oh, oh yeah, this does make sense." And maybe given a fair shot,
1:27:37maybe it would, but I don't feel like I want a touchscreen computer to begin with. And
1:27:42now you're saying, "Well, why not have a touchscreen iMac?" If I was an artist, heck yes. But as
1:27:49me? Meh, no thanks. It's a cool thing to look at.
1:27:53But you don't want a touchscreen laptop. Like when you phrase it that way, like, no, no,
1:27:56Who wants a touch screen? I'm just saying people find themselves compelled to touch a screen, but no, like those things, the Surface
1:28:02I would say is not a touch screen laptop. It is a tablet with a keyboard. Apple makes one of those already.
1:28:07It's called the iPad.
1:28:09The iPad is not a touch screen laptop. It is a tablet that comes with a keyboard. And you think, what's the difference?
1:28:15Well, they're both basically the same in use. They're opened at the same angle.
1:28:19There's a keyboard horizontally and a screen kind of vertically. And yes, you can touch the screen.
1:28:24But you use them in such different ways like oh well when I'm just using it with my hands
1:28:27It's just an iPad, but then when I wanted typing
1:28:29I use the keyboard like I don't know what you want to call that but
1:28:33Phrasing it as a laptop of the keyboard sounds like oh, I don't want to be poking my finger
1:28:37It's not comfortable as Apple's point out a million times to poke at a vertical screen
1:28:40it's better to use the indirect input devices, but I
1:28:43Think it's looking at it the wrong way
1:28:45It's taking the old the old thing and saying I'm taking the old thing and modifying it by a touchscreen
1:28:51When we take the new thing which is a tablet and modify it by adding back a keyboard
1:28:54Everyone's okay with it and it's basically the same result and this thing the surface studio
1:28:58I think is it's like this is not a touchscreen laptop
1:29:01This is also not a touchscreen iMac because iMac doesn't lay down on the table for you
1:29:05Like there's no way hell you've on touchscreen iMac
1:29:07You can't draw on it on an iMac the thing doesn't going tilts like 15 degrees and most of them are you know?
1:29:12It's close to straight up and down the whole time
1:29:14That is not the surface studio the key feature of the surface studio that says
1:29:17When you want to do the thing like just like an iPad when you just want to use it like an iPad
1:29:21You don't need the keyboard and the service series like when you want to do stuff doesn't involve text input at all
1:29:26like you're drawing a picture and doing architectural drawings or like
1:29:29Manipulating lines or things in space or whatever and you don't have to use the keyboard lay the whole thing down
1:29:36I think like in the pictures they have like laying down on top of the keyboard like you don't even have to see the keyboard
1:29:40It's not there anymore. It's like it's the same way the keyboard goes away
1:29:43When you use your iPad like I'm not using the keyboard part of my iPad now
1:29:47I'm just using the iPad part of it and that's in a portable context
1:29:50This is the just simply the desktop equivalent of that
1:29:52So I'm not sure what you want to call it and it is weird that
1:29:55Apple's most likely response to this would have to be an iOS device and not a Mac
1:29:58Which is strange because as we've talked about in the past Apple's thus far their inability to really get pro level
1:30:06Applications to flourish on iOS devices whereas they're still kind of doing okay on the Mac
1:30:12Like that's Apple's challenge to solve, but I'm just saying like writ large, you know, I've always you know
1:30:17The future of computing direct manipulation of her tasks that require it on a big gigantic awesome screen
1:30:22The only way that's not gonna happen is if a VR and AR
1:30:26advanced to the point where this approach never has its chance to be in, you know, there's never has to stay in the Sun because
1:30:32AR and VR if they get good enough make having a big giant thing that lights up in front of you like archaic
1:30:39But I feel like there will be a time
1:30:41before AR and VR get good, where it will be the time of the gigantic touch screens that lay down in front of you.
1:30:47And when I'm super old and I'm,
1:30:50you know, doing computing stuff that doesn't involve typing,
1:30:54I would like to have a big gigantic gorgeous screen lay down in front of me so that I can do stuff on it.
1:30:59And also have a keyboard for when I do text input and also have speech recognition.
1:31:02Also have a bunch of things like pens and stuff I could do on it.
1:31:05I'm ready for the Microsoft Surface Studio
1:31:08with 20 years in advancement,
1:31:10probably also not being by Microsoft.
1:31:12(laughing)
1:31:13- You know, one thing you mentioned briefly earlier, John,
1:31:16is like, if they stick with this,
1:31:19and that's 'cause Microsoft,
1:31:21you know, they throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall.
1:31:22They change strategies often,
1:31:25and they change desktop initiatives often.
1:31:30This product line, like many other things
1:31:32Microsoft has tried in recent years,
1:31:34might not be good enough for them,
1:31:37It might not sell well enough or it might not get enough software support
1:31:40It won't sell well enough
1:31:42But like don't you see this as a like the trend like they've spent all these years
1:31:46Making a single OS that accepts all these kinds of input. Like that's not like a fluke
1:31:51That's not like like that's what they've been doing and that's what gives them the option to do things like this
1:31:56I feel like this like I said, this is the culmination of years and years and years of work
1:32:00You can't make this on day one
1:32:01You have to do all the work
1:32:03to make the unified Windows that does all the kinds of input,
1:32:06to change the Windows UI to even be usable with touch,
1:32:09to make the device that has a pen that looks like a laptop
1:32:12with a touchscreen, you have to do years and years of that
1:32:14before you can make this thing.
1:32:15So I feel like it's not a fluke.
1:32:17Sticking with it merely means maybe they will retreat
1:32:20from making their own PCs.
1:32:21Like maybe they will retreat back to the Surface
1:32:24or retreat back to a tablet or a phone size things,
1:32:27or get out of that business entirely
1:32:29and just do Microsoft Azure
1:32:30and then license Windows to Clone Makers, we don't know.
1:32:32But I don't think like they're gonna say,
1:32:36oh, actually touching the screen is not a big deal
1:32:38because they've just spent so long coming to this point.
1:32:41Like I feel like they worked hard
1:32:43to be able to produce a machine like this.
1:32:45And this one won't sell well enough to be significant,
1:32:47but I really think they will take a second
1:32:50and a third crack of it.
1:32:51And when I think of the best in Microsoft,
1:32:53I think of, oh, it pains me to say this.
1:32:55I think of the company that made the Xbox,
1:32:57which was a gigantic, ugly piece of crap,
1:33:02But they stuck with it and every new Xbox they've made
1:33:04has been better than the previous one.
1:33:05- Hey, that first Xbox was a really good system.
1:33:07But no, I mean like so--
1:33:08- Xbox was huge, LOL.
1:33:09- Yep.
1:33:11No, I think just because they've built in all this
1:33:15capability for things like touch and pen input.
1:33:18If you would've looked at the TV market five years ago,
1:33:22you would've thought that 3D TVs were just
1:33:25what everybody wanted and they were taking off like crazy
1:33:28and that obviously-- - Nobody ever thought that.
1:33:30Obviously the future of TV was gonna be 3D,
1:33:33but because if you looked at every TV,
1:33:36every high-end to even mid-range TV you could buy
1:33:39in a store, they were all 3D supported TVs.
1:33:43But in practice, the reason that feature was being put there
1:33:46was because a stagnant industry was trying to add
1:33:49more hardware things to make people upgrade
1:33:52because they weren't upgrading their TVs fast enough.
1:33:54So Microsoft's been putting in all this crazy capability
1:33:58and stuff into the service line,
1:33:59all these different input methods and everything else,
1:34:01it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's using them
1:34:06or that this will be how people will use
1:34:09their Microsoft computers in the future.
1:34:11It might turn out that way,
1:34:12but just because the capability's there,
1:34:14just because Microsoft is building all this,
1:34:17supporting everything, is building this hardware,
1:34:19that doesn't mean that PC users
1:34:22are going to meaningfully adopt this.
1:34:24Again, they might, but that's not a foregone conclusion.
1:34:27No, it's not PC users that are buying this,
1:34:30it is creative professionals specifically,
1:34:32which is a tiny market, and out of those people,
1:34:34they're not gonna buy it because this is like,
1:34:36this is like you trying to enter a market
1:34:38that another company owns, or like,
1:34:41there's already a way to set way to do things,
1:34:43and you have a totally different way to do it.
1:34:45Some people are gonna try it,
1:34:46but professionals are the least likely
1:34:48to change their ways, even if they're already using
1:34:50a Microsoft Windows PC running Photoshop with a tablet,
1:34:55whether it's a Cintiq or just a plain old tablet,
1:34:57even those people aren't gonna buy the Surface Studio
1:35:01except for on a Lark or to be curious about it.
1:35:03Because they're set in their ways,
1:35:04using their Microsoft Windows PC,
1:35:06running Adobe Photoshop with a tablet.
1:35:08And they've been doing that their whole career
1:35:10and that's what they like,
1:35:10and maybe they're curious about this,
1:35:11but it's not a big deal.
1:35:12But the thing about the future is,
1:35:15if they stick with it and keep selling this,
1:35:18even though they're not making money on it,
1:35:19because not enough people buy it,
1:35:22eventually I think the market will come around to it,
1:35:24because people who start out new might be interested in it
1:35:27and try it out and they never got used to using
1:35:29a non-light-up tablet, or the people who use Cintiqs
1:35:32might view this as a better Cintiq until they try it
1:35:35and realize actually the Cintiq is a little bit better
1:35:36because it's got all these buttons on it they're used to
1:35:38and so on and so forth. (laughing)
1:35:39It's gonna be a long road.
1:35:40And the other X factor is that people don't like Windows.
1:35:44Or Marco doesn't like it anyway.
1:35:45Some people don't like Windows.
1:35:46(laughing)
1:35:47Believe it or not.
1:35:47And so those people who don't like Windows
1:35:50are gonna be like, "Well, this looks great and all,
1:35:52"but I don't like Windows, so I'm not gonna do that."
1:35:54all the professionals who are using Macs.
1:35:56For example, I use Photoshop on a Mac
1:35:58with the Wacom tablet or whatever.
1:35:59Like, even just talking to,
1:36:02seeing the tweets from Dr. Wave on Twitter,
1:36:05like, "Isn't this perfect for Pixar?"
1:36:06It's like, well, actually at Pixar,
1:36:07people who have these giant tablets to draw on
1:36:10to do their 3D work, they're on like articulated arms.
1:36:13And so it's a nonstarter for this thing
1:36:14to just be on a simple hinge that goes on a desk.
1:36:16Like, this is just one product,
1:36:18and that it's not as flexible
1:36:19as the products they're already using,
1:36:21and they already have a system that works.
1:36:23And so this may be novel and interesting,
1:36:24but it doesn't work for Pixar, right?
1:36:27But this is early days.
1:36:29This is a single product from a single company
1:36:31with lots of caveats that are associated with it.
1:36:34So I'm not gonna say that this is going to make Microsoft
1:36:38the king of the creative professionals,
1:36:40but they do have a head start on people.
1:36:41And if they keep iterating on this product
1:36:43and this idea and this concept for years and years and years
1:36:46and keep going with this whole OS strategy with touch
1:36:49and maybe make Windows a little bit nicer in the process.
1:36:52and no one else does anything, because who else is there?
1:36:55It's not like Linux is gonna take over
1:36:56the credit professional market, right?
1:36:58It's them and Apple, basically, at this point.
1:37:00And if Apple doesn't move, it gives Microsoft time
1:37:04to try and fail and try and fail and try and fail
1:37:06over and over again, and eventually,
1:37:07they'll get pretty decent, and they'll basically win
1:37:09by default if Apple never makes an iPad bigger
1:37:12than 12.5 inches and never makes a Mac like this.
1:37:15Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,
1:37:18Betterment, Audible, and Squarespace,
1:37:20and we will see you next week.
1:37:22Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin
1:37:29'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental
1:37:35John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him
1:37:40'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental
1:37:45And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm
1:37:50And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them
1:37:55@C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
1:37:59So that's Kasey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M
1:38:04N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N S-I-R-A-C
1:38:09U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A
1:38:11It's accidental (it's accidental)
1:38:14They didn't mean to, accidental (accidental)
1:38:19♪ Can't protect my castle so long ♪
1:38:23- You wanna talk about Sal Segoin?
1:38:27I'm sorry if that's not how you pronounce it.
1:38:28I haven't had time to research.
1:38:31This news broke a couple hours before we started recording
1:38:34that Sal Segoin, he was the product manager,
1:38:39the head of Mac OS automation technologies.
1:38:45So that would include things like AppleScript,
1:38:47Apple Events automator, and apparently he has been let go of Apple, his position has
1:38:53been eliminated. So basically it sure seems like Apple is no longer going to have a head
1:39:00of automation of apps on Mac OS. And a lot of long-time Mac users are taking this news
1:39:07to be possibly a pretty bad sign. Do we want to talk about this? I mean we haven't really
1:39:10had time to look into it much.
1:39:11I looked into it, and I know Sal from my reputation and by all the WWDC sessions I've seen with
1:39:18him, and I've met him in person a couple times, although I'm sure he doesn't remember me.
1:39:21But—
1:39:22Yeah, I'm pretty sure I have, too.
1:39:23He looks very familiar.
1:39:24Yeah.
1:39:25He's one of those people you recognize.
1:39:26There are a couple aspects to this.
1:39:28One is that Sal is just a very nice, gregarious, charismatic, smart person.
1:39:34He's got charisma.
1:39:36You see him, and especially if you're a nerd and you're attracted to smart people, right,
1:39:40who are interesting and dynamic and have opinions and can express them well, that's Sal.
1:39:46So people who are long-time Apple fans and who have known him professionally or by reputation
1:39:53or by his products or presentations are sad to see somebody that everybody liked not be
1:39:59at the company anymore.
1:40:01So that's an unquestionable aspect of this entire thing, because if he was a jerk that
1:40:06everybody hated, this would not be his biggest story.
1:40:08And then the other part is what you just said about automation.
1:40:13Automation on the Mac, which people just shorten to say like, "Oh, Sal, he's that AppleScript
1:40:16guy."
1:40:17That's a reasonable summary of him if you want to go there, but there's much more to
1:40:20it than that.
1:40:21You can read all the stuff on his website.
1:40:22We'll put a link in the show notes.
1:40:23It's not just AppleScript, there's also shell scripting and Apple events that AppleScripting
1:40:27is based on.
1:40:28You can do it in all sorts of different languages.
1:40:30And there's the tooling involved with that.
1:40:33Even as recently as like last year or the year before that, they finally added like
1:40:36library/framework support for AppleScript so you could write AppleScript
1:40:39libraries and use them. AppleScript was kind of stuck in amber for a long
1:40:43time, not really getting any better but not really getting any worse, but was
1:40:46still an essential part of so many professionals' workflows, like that they
1:40:49would use AppleScript to automate the things that they did and it was
1:40:54important to them for their professional applications they were using to have
1:40:56AppleScript support to be able to do this. Automator in the OS X
1:41:00age was this other thing like let regular people design sets of actions without having
1:41:08to be programmers, you know, so automated would let you string together do this and
1:41:12do that and do that without having to like learn language, even a language is as simple
1:41:16as AppleScript.
1:41:18And his position being eliminated, I don't know enough about the internal rearrangement,
1:41:24but it could just be that like the division is merged with some other division.
1:41:30was another person that Apple likes better who's heading that division, so he's out and
1:41:33that person is in. But it could also be that, and this would totally fit with Apple's recent moves,
1:41:38as in neglecting the Mac Pro and having difficulty making Pro apps and
1:41:43canning Aperture and all that other stuff, that they see
1:41:46users creating automations. In anything even approaching a program-like environment,
1:41:54whether it be HyperCard, rest in peace, or Automator, or writing Apple scripts and scales,
1:42:00that is not the future of computing. It's too complicated, regular people don't want to do it,
1:42:05the professionals who want to do it are really causing more problems for themselves than they're
1:42:08solving and really they should just allow us to define the workflows by hard coding them into our
1:42:11applications or just buy another application that does what they want and stop trying to program it
1:42:15or whatever. Therefore having an automation division and a product manager of automation,
1:42:20that's not the future of the company, that's not the future of the Mac, we don't need that anymore,
1:42:23it's a waste of time and resources and it's holding back our other approaches. That's like
1:42:27the doomsday scenario. The most pessimistic scenario is that automation is being de-emphasized
1:42:32in the same way that writing batch scripts would be de-emphasized, or having to write programs
1:42:37yourself would be de-emphasized, right? And it makes some sense. The march of progress has been
1:42:44de-emphasizing the need for people who use computers to do stuff like that. It used to be
1:42:50that you had to enter your programs by typing them from the back of a magazine in BASIC, and that's
1:42:53that's how you got your program to run, right?
1:42:55And no one does that anymore.
1:42:55Now we have the App Store, right?
1:42:57And a lot of the things that we used to use automation for
1:43:00hopefully are mooted by the fact that programs
1:43:03are just better or the internet does it better
1:43:05or even something as simple as like,
1:43:07what is the thing for iOS, workflows?
1:43:10Yeah, workflow, right.
1:43:12It's a third party opportunity.
1:43:13Workflow is just fine.
1:43:14Apple doesn't need to do it.
1:43:15We just need to provide the capabilities
1:43:16and Apple events itself, you can't argue with the fact
1:43:18that Apple events is pretty damn old and creaky.
1:43:21hit this, it could be that it's all being replaced by some bold new vision of automation
1:43:26for the modern age in the same way that AppleScript replaced everything that came before it.
1:43:31But as with all things in Apple, we don't know.
1:43:33It's a big black hole, we have no idea what they're planning, we just have fear, uncertainty,
1:43:38and doubt, and once again this is all in the context of Apple fans being grumpy for a bunch
1:43:45of related reasons.
1:43:46It can feel bad, but I'm not entirely ready to go all doom and gloom on this, just because
1:43:52it could just be that it's time to turn on a new page, because Sal and all the tech that
1:43:58he was working on, and especially the foundational tech like Apple events, has never really felt
1:44:01like it has fit into the OS X world.
1:44:05So best case scenario, they're rethinking this all and saying, "What does automation
1:44:08mean from here going forward?"
1:44:12Does it mean Apple events or is there a better overall system for automating things on the
1:44:17computer?
1:44:18So in worst case, Tim Cook says, "Automating things is stupid.
1:44:20We don't need to do that anymore.
1:44:21People should just tap their meaty little fingers on screens and not worry about it."
1:44:25Yeah, I never really wrote much AppleScript.
1:44:29I did real early on when I had first gotten my Mac to do, I don't know, like some silly
1:44:36basic things.
1:44:37I forget exactly what it was for, but it was like maybe setting a default printer or something
1:44:40like that.
1:44:41And this was like in 2008-ish, and I personally have never really gone back and had a need
1:44:47to write more.
1:44:48Now I know there's tons of people who write it a lot and use it heavily, but for me, this
1:44:56is not something I'm terribly worried about and not something that I use terribly often.
1:45:00But it also does make me a little bit sad.
1:45:02If this is a canary in a coal mine, in the coal mine for automation in Mac OS, it'd bum
1:45:08me out if that went away, but I wouldn't say it would necessarily affect my day to day
1:45:12either.
1:45:13- I mean it's more about like, it's a very, very powerful set of features.
1:45:21AppleScript, the language is kind of, that's just the implementation detail of it, but
1:45:25the system on which it's based that exposes Apple events and control of applications,
1:45:31automation of other applications through this entire API that can be any language you need
1:45:36it to be and there's many things that expose it
1:45:39as different languages like I think JSTalk
1:45:42makes it JavaScript and I think there's a few other things
1:45:44like that.
1:45:45You know, it's more this, that feature set,
1:45:50while it is used by probably a very tiny percentage
1:45:53of Mac users, the amount of power it gives is so great
1:45:58that, you know, this, really, Mac OS,
1:46:02one of the things I love so much about Mac OS
1:46:05is that it is just so incredibly powerful.
1:46:09I mean that deeply.
1:46:11It is incredibly powerful if you know how to use its power.
1:46:16There is an, it is in every sense of the word,
1:46:21a true workstation OS, as I said in my Mac Pro post,
1:46:25OS X is awesome.
1:46:28And to remove or to let rot or to deprecate
1:46:34a major area of power from it.
1:46:37I can see why people are worried about that.
1:46:39And Jon, you know, I agree.
1:46:41It does seem like things are moving away from that,
1:46:46from that direction in consumer software design,
1:46:49mostly by Apple's doing, by the way.
1:46:51It's not like the whole industry is doing this,
1:46:54mostly Apple doing this,
1:46:56but it was in many ways theirs to lose.
1:46:58They really had amazing automation features
1:47:01that were fairly accessible to people.
1:47:03Programmers will always find ways to automate things.
1:47:06The most extreme power users will always find ways
1:47:10to automate things, but one of the things that made
1:47:12this area of OS X so powerful is that it was really
1:47:16quite accessible to lots of people.
1:47:18A whole lot of people who are not programmers
1:47:21were able to use things like Automator to automate
1:47:24really time consuming tasks that then freed them up
1:47:29to have the computer do what computers are supposed to do.
1:47:32The kind of power that usually you have to be a programmer
1:47:35to have, many people were given this power
1:47:39by this system and this infrastructure.
1:47:41So the loss of it, I think, is certainly cause for concern
1:47:46if you love the Mac operating system as much as I do
1:47:51for this power that it's always had.
1:47:54And as I said, I'll be fine because I'm a programmer.
1:47:57I can use Bash and script something up
1:47:59or actually write an app to do things
1:48:01if I need to automate them, which I do all the time.
1:48:04I hardly ever use these technologies
1:48:06because I usually just write shell scripts
1:48:07and stuff instead.
1:48:09But a lot of people use these, I think.
1:48:11And even, again, percentage-wise, I'm sure it's very small.
1:48:15But that still could be like thousands of people
1:48:18who rely on this to save them like hours of time a week
1:48:22or to do something that would just be impractical
1:48:23to do otherwise.
1:48:25So yeah, I feel the word on this.
1:48:28That being said, there's a lot about this
1:48:31that we still don't know.
1:48:33All we know is that this guy, his job was cut apparently.
1:48:38We don't know why.
1:48:40We don't know, maybe they're just reorganizing
1:48:44the department of whatever it's in.
1:48:46I don't know how this is organized inside.
1:48:48Maybe it's just a reorg, maybe it's like
1:48:51weird cost cutting measures that maybe
1:48:53they might come back to later.
1:48:54Who knows?
1:48:55Maybe it was just like a personal conflict.
1:48:57Maybe there's a new team doing basically like maybe all of a sudden there's overlap because
1:49:01you know, we have this automation system, but maybe the Swift people are like, "Oh,
1:49:05I totally want you to be able to script your applications with Swift and we have this project
1:49:08and then maybe that project wins."
1:49:09And so this will be the legacy version of automation and then the Swift one will come.
1:49:13Another one I've been thinking about in terms of how do you get people who can't program
1:49:16to be able to do simple automation stuff.
1:49:19I always feel like the people who are good at using Automator and AppleScript are either
1:49:23basically programmers already and they don't know it, or could be programmers within 15
1:49:28minutes.
1:49:29Because to use, even though Automator is way easier than coding, the people who use it
1:49:33as part of their job, they eventually can't avoid basically becoming programmers.
1:49:38They don't know they're programmers, they think they just click buttons, but they're
1:49:40learning conditionals, loops, logic, input/output, like they're just learning what programmers
1:49:47would consider to be an awful programming language, which is just clicking a bunch of
1:49:50buttons around, right? We're just like, let me just write the code, right? But that's—
1:49:54See, also Excel wizards. Yeah, exactly, right? But another way you could do that is, how do you
1:50:01get non-programmers to be able to make their computer to do busy work that programmers know
1:50:06how to make them do? Another way to do it would be to have a conversation with the computer and
1:50:11describe what you want to have the computer do it. So a much, much, much, much, much, much, much
1:50:16more advanced Siri. You could say, "Siri, let's have a discussion. I want you to take all the,
1:50:24when photos arrive in this folder, I want you to take all of them and rename them with the date
1:50:31and tag them with this label and put them into this folder or something. Something you could
1:50:38do with Hazel or with Automator. Resize them all to be this size or whatever, blah, blah, blah."
1:50:42And Siri would go back and forth. "Do you mean like this? Giving you a preview of what you were
1:50:45you were gonna say, okay, if I was to do it,
1:50:47this is what I would do.
1:50:48Does this look like what you wanted?
1:50:49Like all it would be doing behind the scenes
1:50:51is using the automation machinery that's already there
1:50:54and all of the automation you're able to do
1:50:55for like images easy,
1:50:56'cause they have so many tools for like resizing images
1:50:58or changing the exif data or renaming files.
1:51:02Like that's all easy to do.
1:51:04All you need to do is figure out a way
1:51:06to express to the computer what you want.
1:51:07And if you can have a conversation
1:51:09with even a pretty stupid Siri
1:51:10that is nevertheless hundreds of times smarter
1:51:12than it is now to go back and forth,
1:51:15Eventually Siri could figure out essentially,
1:51:17here's the automator action you would have built,
1:51:19only we built it together by having a conversation.
1:51:21That is certainly a much more advanced, much brighter,
1:51:24and I think attainable future
1:51:26of letting normal people automate stuff.
1:51:28So for all we know, maybe the future automation
1:51:31is all wrapped up in the Siri team
1:51:33and they have grand plans to do that.
1:51:35I wish them luck because so far
1:51:37they haven't really shown me anything,
1:51:38but it could be done.
1:51:40And so maybe, like I said,
1:51:42we don't know what's going on at Apple.
1:51:43It could just be a re-org,
1:51:44could just be a merging type thing. But I have hope that even if Apple has decided that
1:51:54every single technology that Sal lists on his website is the past of automation, that
1:51:58I have some hope that Apple believes that there is something else that is the future
1:52:01of automation. Because like you said, Marco, people want to use their computers to do complicated
1:52:07things. But if they're not programmers and don't want to become programmers, we have
1:52:11to find a way to let them do that, like a gentler slope, to get them to be able to do
1:52:16that, because they will be happier with their computers and will find them more indispensable,
1:52:19even if they could perform something as simple as, you know, when I get an email like this,
1:52:25extract the image attachment, put in this folder, rename it this way, and then send
1:52:30me a text message about it or do whatever. Like, when you show normal people that they
1:52:35can make something like that work, they think it is the greatest thing in the world, because
1:52:38They're basically like, as someone said in the chat room, it's like the gateway drug
1:52:41to programming, only they never actually go through the gate.
1:52:44They just stay outside of it and go, "This is great!
1:52:46My computer does what I want!"
1:52:48Which I think is great.
1:52:49So I think there's still need for non-programmers to be able to automate things in their computer,
1:52:55but I'm willing to believe that there is a better way.
1:52:58[BEEPING]