84: The Load-Bearing Finger

0:00:00You guys are so sleepy. Kasey's gotta work on the whole getting ready to not have any sleep thing.

0:00:05But lately, Marco's been the one saying he's all sleepy, so.

0:00:08Yeah, well, my kid's in school now, so now I'm waking up like an hour earlier,

0:00:12so I'm closer to Kasey's schedule.

0:00:13I know, you already complained about your early wake-up time. Yeah, it's so bad.

0:00:18It is horrible.

0:00:19Then you go back home.

0:00:20It's funny to me that when I complained and moaned for the first year and a half of this show,

0:00:26it was, "Oh, get over it. You're fine."

0:00:28Now that the king is having to get up early,

0:00:31suddenly we all have to go to bed.

0:00:33- Well, we should have a month where not only

0:00:35does he have to get up early,

0:00:36but like get dressed up in nice clothes

0:00:38and not come back to his house after he drops the sun off.

0:00:41Go to another building where you have to like

0:00:45not smell bad and have already eaten

0:00:47and be dressed nice.

0:00:49- I can go to a parking lot.

0:00:51- And then talk about parking lots afterwards.

0:00:53What do you wear to work, Jon?

0:00:56Do you have to wear khakis or can you wear like jeans?

0:00:58I only have one set of clothes and you've seen them all.

0:01:01That's what I wear.

0:01:03I'm not as bad as Marco yet,

0:01:04or not as good as Marco yet, I should say,

0:01:06'cause he's already achieved my ultimate goal,

0:01:08which is to not have to worry about clothes

0:01:10and just have an outfit.

0:01:11I have not achieved that, but I would like to.

0:01:13But basically I have a small set of clothes

0:01:14and you've seen them all, that's what I wear to work.

0:01:16- Okay, so jeans and like a polo shirt.

0:01:19- It's not a polo shirt.

0:01:20You know what they are.

0:01:20They're horizontal stripe rugby shirts.

0:01:22That's all I own.

0:01:23- Whatever, same difference.

0:01:24They're James May shirts.

0:01:26I guess they kind of are.

0:01:27No, I mean, I will not dispute the value of having a uniform.

0:01:31It doesn't really matter what the uniform is.

0:01:33Yep, no, I envy you.

0:01:35I kind of do have a uniform.

0:01:36It just has more variety.

0:01:37But the problem is all my uniforms, the sleeves shrink.

0:01:40And then I have to-- otherwise, I would use them until they disintegrated, like my running

0:01:44shirts that are 15 years old that I still have.

0:01:48I feel like I am not a fashion-conscious kind of guy, but I feel like I would get bored

0:01:53wearing the same crap every day.

0:01:54- Everyone agrees that you are the best dressed

0:01:55of all of us, Casey, so if that's what you're looking to hear

0:01:57then it's--

0:01:58- I'm not fishing for compliments.

0:02:00That may be true, but I'm not fishing for compliments.

0:02:02I'm just saying that I don't think of myself

0:02:04as having any fashion sense yet.

0:02:06- Everything's relative.

0:02:07Among me and Marco, you have a lot of fashion sense.

0:02:10- Oh yeah.

0:02:11- Well, I guess that's true.

0:02:12But I mean, regardless of fashion sense,

0:02:14I just feel like looking down and seeing

0:02:16the exact same uniform every day would get really boring.

0:02:19- You don't look down and Marco doesn't care

0:02:20what he's wearing, I don't care what I'm wearing.

0:02:22- Yeah, that's exactly it.

0:02:23We just want not to be pointed at and laughed at.

0:02:26- Yeah, like we find something that lets us ignore this

0:02:29for the rest of our lives, or at least for the next year

0:02:31or two until these shirts all disintegrate.

0:02:34- I guess.

0:02:35- No, yeah, Casey, you definitely represent humanity

0:02:37in this show.

0:02:38(laughing)

0:02:40- Normal, normal humanity, and let's not talk

0:02:42of normal humanity too much.

0:02:43Normal humanity has lots of downsides.

0:02:45Did either one of you two actually read any of the follow-up

0:02:50before we begin?

0:02:51- No.

0:02:52I at least skimmed all of it.

0:02:54- Great, all right, well, so I also skimmed it.

0:02:56We should just publish show notes in the chat room

0:03:00and they can do follow up.

0:03:01'Cause none of us have looked at it.

0:03:02I put most of it there.

0:03:04- Okay, would we like to start with a friend of the show,

0:03:08Jason Snell's correction about the iPhone 6's CPUs?

0:03:13- Yeah, so basically we said last show, I said last show,

0:03:18someone said, I think it was me, someone said last show

0:03:20that the iPhone 6 Plus had a slightly higher clocked CPU

0:03:24than the 6, similar to the difference between the iPad Air

0:03:28and the Retina iPad Mini, where the Air is like 10% faster

0:03:31or something like that.

0:03:33Turns out that is, I think, completely wrong,

0:03:37or at least, like people have,

0:03:39we've seen things all over the place here.

0:03:41We've seen some benchmarks showing

0:03:43that the 6 is faster than the 6 Plus

0:03:45by some little amount like that.

0:03:47We've seen some benchmarks saying they're the same.

0:03:49We've seen some benchmarks saying the 6+

0:03:51is faster than the 6.

0:03:53So Jason Snell posted a follow-up thing.

0:03:55He had originally said the 6+ was faster.

0:03:57He, I think then, has corrected it and said,

0:03:59"Actually, that was mismeasured or whatever,

0:04:02"and it's wrong."

0:04:03I don't think we know quite what's going on here yet, do we?

0:04:07But I mean, there's a lot of things it could be.

0:04:09There's things like dynamic clock speeds happening

0:04:12where there could be throttling for thermal reasons.

0:04:15Apple said it shouldn't happen,

0:04:16that it can maintain the full speed all the time,

0:04:18but we don't actually, you know,

0:04:19we don't know what kind of conditions

0:04:20some of these benchmarks were done in,

0:04:21so maybe it's like, you know, extreme conditions

0:04:24or in warm environments, who knows.

0:04:26But regardless, there doesn't appear to be

0:04:28a clear difference between the two that's actually reliable.

0:04:32So there's occasionally a small difference,

0:04:33but it kind of flip-flops as to which direction it goes,

0:04:36and so I think it's more likely to be chalked up

0:04:38to testing conditions or benchmarks mismeasuring things

0:04:43than the actual differences in the CPU clock speeds.

0:04:46Wouldn't it be nice if Apple just publish them?

0:04:48Or at the very least, if there was like,

0:04:49you can have like an Intel CPU,

0:04:50like read off some registers and find out the clock speed.

0:04:53Or like, this is all guesswork,

0:04:54'cause it's all kind of get this benchmark app to run.

0:04:57And like, well, does this benchmark app accurately

0:04:59test the speed of this particular CPU?

0:05:02Or yeah, I don't like this guesswork business.

0:05:05But anyway, last show I had mentioned that

0:05:07Jason had said conclusively the exact clock speeds

0:05:09and he's now recanted.

0:05:11And so we're back to just not knowing.

0:05:12And we, as far as anyone knows,

0:05:13they look like they're probably about the same,

0:05:15but we'll see.

0:05:16All right, and then we of course have a ton of follow-up about the Apple watch and

0:05:20One of the most popular bits of follow-up, let me back up

0:05:24actually

0:05:24There are two popular bits of follow-up people saying either we are insane or we're right on the money

0:05:28for saying that the watches will be expensive and we'll talk about that more in a moment and

0:05:32people theorizing how you can justify the purchase procedure of

0:05:38buying a 10 or 20 or 30 thousand dollar Apple watch and

0:05:42what you would do once that piece of electronics gets sold and the really frustrating thing about the what you would do is that a

0:05:49lot of people

0:05:51Have sent in feedback saying hey if you have 18 karat gold it stands to reason you could you know

0:05:55Melt that down or otherwise recycle it and so perhaps you'll lease the Apple watch or maybe there'll be a trade-in program or something like that

0:06:03And this is really annoying because during the last episode I thought to myself, you know

0:06:06I wonder if you could just like

0:06:08trade in your watch and then you could get a new one and then during the time that you two were talking and I was

0:06:14Reasoning through this in my head. I decided no, that's a stupid idea. I shouldn't share it and

0:06:18Like 20 people sent it in. So the moral of the story is I should trust my instincts

0:06:24I thought what I was actually said it

0:06:25In fact, I thought all the ideas that have been sent to us by email and Twitter were actually mentioned offhand in the show

0:06:30But it's obvious that the audience wants to hear more discussion of these things because many people offered

0:06:34elaborate theories

0:06:37Apple was gonna make this work. So we just like mentioned one or two things offhand, but

0:06:41people want to hear expansions on these, so I figure it's worth discussing. Although you skip

0:06:45the actually the first item in the follow-up right before this is someone who has worked in the

0:06:51jewelry industry for 20 years says that over 5x markups on fashion and jewelry is normal. So in

0:06:57case people wanted to put a number on what kind of what are these crazy margins that we're talking

0:07:01about? What kind of complete disconnect between the cost of goods and the products? More than 5x

0:07:07is routine. Yep. And so one of the examples of these theories were regarding how you could

0:07:15handle upgrading or whatever. This was sent in by Phil Compton. Apple could have two easy

0:07:21ways to handle the rapid obsolescence of the Apple watch. One upgrade ability and two trade-ins.

0:07:27The upgrade ability would of course need to be done at an Apple store, but they should

0:07:30be able to keep movements within a set of specifications that could allow easy upgrading

0:07:34of the internals of one generation to a newer one. I assume they would always be making

0:07:39the watch smaller, so although the same adapter maybe needed to fill the space, each new gen

0:07:42should fit in the next." And actually, the genesis of my theory last episode that I never

0:07:47shared so now it sounds like I fabricated it in order to sound smart, was they made

0:07:52a lot of, well, relatively speaking, a lot of mention of, what is it, the S1? What is

0:07:57powering this thing?

0:07:58- Yeah, the S1 is their marketing name

0:08:01for the entire computer in a little tiny case.

0:08:05- Exactly.

0:08:05- It isn't all on one chip,

0:08:07but it's a whole bunch of components in some kind of case

0:08:10that is most likely more for water resistance

0:08:12than anything else.

0:08:13- Yeah, but it made me think, you know,

0:08:14if you keep the pinouts of that case

0:08:17and the physical shape of that case the same,

0:08:20even if the internals get considerably better,

0:08:23maybe that's the way you upgrade it.

0:08:26Is there some mechanism by which they can get

0:08:28in there and replace the S1 and put in an S2.

0:08:31That externally looks identical and operates identical

0:08:34from an interface perspective,

0:08:36but internally is twice the clock speed or what have you.

0:08:39This all falls down though,

0:08:41if displays get a lot better and, or,

0:08:44well, if the displays get a lot better

0:08:46and have different sizes or different pin outs.

0:08:48And Jon, I'm waiting for you to blow a hole in my theory.

0:08:50- Well, so here's the deal with the upgradeability.

0:08:54This is definitely one of the things

0:08:55that many different people suggested.

0:08:56they suggested that there was a part of the watch

0:08:59that would become obsolete,

0:09:00and there was a part that would not come obsolete.

0:09:02As I said, the gold case or whatever, that should be fine,

0:09:06and presumably that's where most of the cost is.

0:09:08You could swap out those internal stuffs,

0:09:10they'd probably cost less than the band.

0:09:11They're probably 50 bucks for the little S1

0:09:13or whatever it is.

0:09:14Here's the thing with that.

0:09:17In Apple's history, and we'll get to this

0:09:19if we actually do get to the iPhone 6 Plus bending,

0:09:22Apple has always chosen, when they had a choice

0:09:24between keep it the same thickness

0:09:25to increase battery life or make it thinner,

0:09:27they always choose to make it thinner.

0:09:29And that's why we're mentioning I'm ready

0:09:31for the iPhone 4S form factor of this watch.

0:09:34We all assume that this is the first Apple Watch,

0:09:37and just like the first Apple phone,

0:09:39yeah, I'm gonna call it the Apple phone,

0:09:41I'm gonna switch it around.

0:09:42Instead of mistakenly saying Apple Watch,

0:09:43I'm going to say Apple phone from now on.

0:09:46Thanks a lot, guys.

0:09:46- Apple touch.

0:09:47- We all assume that they're gonna make the watch thinner

0:09:50when they can.

0:09:50They're not going to say, you know what,

0:09:52let's keep the Apple Watch case exactly the same size,

0:09:55and every year just make the battery a little bit bigger

0:09:58and make the other components smaller or something

0:10:01or have the S1 be swappable in and out

0:10:04and that's the way we'll do upgrades or whatever like that.

0:10:07This gets back to the product cycles on the watch.

0:10:10Do we think they're gonna come up with a new watch

0:10:12every year, every two years, every five years?

0:10:14I think they'll do a new one every year.

0:10:16If they do a new one every year,

0:10:17will they try to make it thinner

0:10:18or will they keep it the same size

0:10:19and make the battery thicker?

0:10:20This all goes towards upgradeability.

0:10:23Nevermind that Apple really is not big on upgradeability,

0:10:25period, not with their Macs, not with their iPhones,

0:10:27not with their iPods, those days have long gone.

0:10:29Like, my first Mac that I ever got was motherboard upgraded

0:10:33from a Mac 128K to a Mac Plus,

0:10:35something officially Apple used to sell and do.

0:10:39The current Apple is a long way away from that.

0:10:41So I have a hard time believing,

0:10:43unless there's some really good financial reason

0:10:46having to do with the way watches are normally sold,

0:10:49that Apple would ever do something like this,

0:10:52both because I just cannot see them keeping the case

0:10:56the same over long periods,

0:10:58and because they just want you to buy a new one.

0:11:00Now I'm not willing to rule it out entirely,

0:11:02simply because everything we know

0:11:03about how Apple sells technology has to be reevaluated

0:11:06in terms of, well, this isn't really technology,

0:11:08this is fashion, so maybe they need a new plan.

0:11:10And I don't know enough about fashion

0:11:11to know if there's any precedent for this

0:11:12in the watch world of replacing the movements

0:11:15inside your thing and keeping the gold band

0:11:16or something like that.

0:11:17But right now it seems to me that the upgrading thing

0:11:22is one of those things that nerds would like Apple to do,

0:11:26kind of like replaceable batteries,

0:11:27or can you just motherboard upgrade my Mac Pro

0:11:30to a new Mac Pro instead of having me buy a new one?

0:11:32And the answer from Apple is no, we cannot, we will not.

0:11:35You'll just buy a new one or just use this one.

0:11:37So I'm giving the upgrading thing, technically feasible,

0:11:41yes, 100% technically feasible,

0:11:43but I don't think it's something that Apple is going to do.

0:11:47I'm giving that a maybe like thumbs down if I had to pick one and I've had to put a percentage by it

0:11:52I'm gonna go like 80% against

0:11:54Yeah, I would also bet strongly against it not only for all the reasons you mentioned but you know

0:11:59Even even if you ignore the fact that they would probably almost certainly make less money over time doing it that way

0:12:04I don't think they would want to constrain themselves and their future changes to the watch by an it by a commitment

0:12:13Whether you know whether they said it or whether they've just been implied by past performance to keep the upgrades available

0:12:18So, you know look at look at the massive

0:12:21Poop fit that the world through when they change the dock connector into the lightning connector and that was like 10 years, right?

0:12:28Yeah, 10 10 years with the same connector. I think it was

0:12:30Yeah

0:12:30and people people are still insanely upset and

0:12:33thinking Apple did it just to make more money like that is a common a

0:12:37Very very common opinion of that change is Apple just did it to make more money to make everyone buy new cables and accessories

0:12:42If they ever made the watch upgradeable, the expectation to keep it upgradeable in the future would be so high that they would suffer such severe reputation damage and have so many angry people every time they made a backwards incompatible change.

0:12:57change. And so that would either cause a bunch of poop fits from their customers on a regular

0:13:04basis like every few years whenever they make a breaking change or it would constrain them

0:13:11from oh well we'd like to make this change in next year's version but that would break

0:13:16compatibility with upgrades and so we kind of can't or shouldn't do that. And I don't

0:13:20see Apple ever wanting to be constrained that way in the design of such an important product

0:13:24in their lineup.

0:13:25So who does upgradeability benefit?

0:13:28That's the real question you're like,

0:13:30what are the benefits of upgradeability?

0:13:32Is it a benefit to Apple?

0:13:33Is it a benefit to consumers?

0:13:35I think most people coming at it from the consumer's

0:13:37perspective is, hey, if I spend--

0:13:39they're imagining for the sake of argument

0:13:43that they have enough money to buy

0:13:45the super expensive Apple Watch.

0:13:46And then they're further imagining that despite having

0:13:49all that money, they also don't want to spend that money again

0:13:51anytime soon.

0:13:52So they would like to protect their investment in this Apple

0:13:54watch by saying I spent $1200 on this stainless steel Apple watch with a stainless steel band,

0:13:59now the new one is out and has a faster processor or it uses less power, I don't want to spend

0:14:05all that money again.

0:14:06And then it's the same thing, people want to upgrade prices for everything.

0:14:09And if I told you how much my upgrade for my 128k that I didn't pay, obviously my parents

0:14:12did too, plus it was you'd probably die and today's money is probably like three grand

0:14:15or something.

0:14:16But anyway, they assume that the upgrade will cost less money than buying the entire thing

0:14:19outright again.

0:14:20does a consumer benefit to say I bought this thing once the better thing is out

0:14:25but I don't want to buy the better thing I want you to take as much as you can

0:14:28from my current thing and just swap out the parts that are not good for the

0:14:32better parts to save money that doesn't benefit Apple at all just mark I was

0:14:36saying before this is gonna make Apple more money no this is not going to make

0:14:38Apple more money like overall they will the average selling price of their

0:14:44watches will go down if people can do these upgrades it does benefit consumers

0:14:49but does it benefit consumers in a way that Apple feels like we should do this because it will make the experience better for consumer

0:14:54and I don't even think like if you had to pretend you're

0:14:56You know magnanimous Apple and say well, we'd like to do that

0:14:59But we feel replacing the parts does not give the cohesive experience of the into we've designed the Apple watch too as an entire device

0:15:06And it's it's a balanced system where everything works together

0:15:09And if you would just take the insides out of the app, you know, there's all sorts of crazy BS reasons you come

0:15:14But some of them have some merit and like,

0:15:16oh look, are they designing a product

0:15:18or are they designing serious parts

0:15:19that you can assemble into a product?

0:15:20Like, can you just take the S1 out and put the S2 in

0:15:23and suddenly your watch gets faster

0:15:25and it takes less power?

0:15:26Yeah, maybe for a generation or two,

0:15:29but like Marco said, at a certain point,

0:15:30you have to have a breaking design change.

0:15:33Or you just want to.

0:15:34You can do things in fashion

0:15:36and just make it the same all the time.

0:15:37Fashion has to change.

0:15:39So I think this is mostly a tech nerd fantasy

0:15:43having to do with people who probably would never drop that much money on a watch anyway,

0:15:47even if they could afford it because they would feel like it's a waste, but then can

0:15:50put themselves into that position and say, "But if I did do that, I would still have

0:15:54my instincts that think it's a ridiculous expense, but I would want the new thing anyway,

0:15:58but I wouldn't want to pay for it."

0:15:59And it's a weird...

0:16:01I don't think this actual character...

0:16:03Casey can bring up the user story index cards.

0:16:06I don't think this actual character that needs upgradability for the watch to be a viable

0:16:12thing exists.

0:16:13just a sort of a fantasy we're spinning out right now. Now the second item on this thing trade-ins

0:16:17is an entirely different thing and I think that is way more plausible because Apple already does

0:16:21that with stuff they have now. They will you know take your old stuff, most of them just take it and

0:16:25recycle it but like give me your old thing for a discount on the new thing that I entirely see as

0:16:32being plausible especially if it's made of precious metals but that's different than upgradeability.

0:16:35Yeah I think the like recycling or trade-in approach is way more likely because as you

0:16:40they already do it for certain things, you're right about that, they already do it, and

0:16:45it just makes more sense. It avoids all of the issues of the upgradeability kind of constraining

0:16:50their options and people's expectations thereof. It avoids all of that. And it sounds environmentally

0:16:57friendly and it seems economically somewhat responsible if you want to upgrade and you

0:17:02can get a good amount of money for your stainless steel one or whatever.

0:17:05The gold one you're gonna get serious money for because that's you know, but this is the metal itself is

0:17:10Innately valuable Apple can take it and melt it down and recycle it into new Apple watches and they will give you good money

0:17:16They won't just give you like 50 bucks or like saved you the recycling cost

0:17:19They will give you the good money for a gold trade-in

0:17:21You know what? I'm thinking about and this is taking just a half step backwards is a lot of us will

0:17:28spend a

0:17:31somewhere between $500 and $1000 every year or every other year on a new phone.

0:17:36And just for the sake of conversation, let's say it's every year and let's say it's

0:17:40an even $1000 to make the math easy.

0:17:43And let's say an average salary in the US is $50,000.

0:17:46Again, just for the sake of making the math easy.

0:17:49So if you get a new phone, which is $1000 and you have a $50,000 salary, that's 2%

0:17:54of your gross salary is $1000.

0:17:59So if you make $1.5 million, which granted is an unbelievable shed load of money, then

0:18:07$30,000 is 2% of it.

0:18:10And so what I'm driving at is even if an Apple Watch is $30K, if you're making a

0:18:16million and a half as probably more people in at least the United States do than I care

0:18:22to admit to myself, then getting a new $30,000 watch every couple of years, it's the same

0:18:27is one of us getting a new iPhone every year or two. Everything is relative. And although

0:18:35the market is surely smaller than the millions upon millions upon millions of iPhones that

0:18:40are sold annually, it's still not a bad setup, especially since I would assume the markup,

0:18:46as we spoke about earlier, is just tremendous. Yeah, it's worth reiterating again that we

0:18:51keep concentrating on the high end just because this type of product is different for Apple,

0:18:55type of fashion product where the price is so crazily out of whack but they're

0:18:59you know volume wise they're gonna sell Apple hopes tons of the cheap one and so

0:19:05such a small nut it'll be like the Mac Pro such a small number of these

0:19:09expensive watches are gonna be sold that I doubt first of all I doubt Apple will

0:19:13break it down for us because they never do but I think we can probably you know

0:19:16or a Stadu or somebody will do the math and try to say it's reasonable to assume

0:19:20that percentage wise you know 90% of Apple watches sold were the cheap one and

0:19:24Then 10% with the super expensive one and that yeah, you do make a lot of money of it

0:19:28But like really this is that's the thing about this this type of market is

0:19:32Apple wants to go all the way up to the top and the top is really high and it's I

0:19:37Maybe it's about exactly that I would love to see the breakdown of like how many Mac pros are sold versus how many?

0:19:42You know of the reasonably priced max. I think it'll be even more extreme with this expensive watch

0:19:48We're just obsessing over it because it's just such a novelty and we just can't figure out how it's going to work within

0:19:53Apple's current business and customers and the way they sell things and everything else.

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0:20:32app? It's really popular. I've heard of it, I have not tried it yet. Yeah it's very

0:20:36very popular. Well anyway MobileLux did their new interface for the

0:20:39version that shipped today which is huge. They also designed and built the

0:20:42responsive web platform logo and identity for our friends at Need. The

0:20:46you know neededition.com those people need. MobileLux built a lot of that

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0:21:04across the country. They just launched it in DC, you can see that too.

0:21:08MobileLux can help with everything from identity design to building full stack iOS social networks.

0:21:14They also have one of their own products called Elixir, E-L-I-X-R. And it's kind of like Instagram

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0:21:25Mobileux, so they have their own products, you can hire them. In the hiring capacity,

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0:21:44Now the reason I know them from Tumblr is because the original Tumblr app for iPhone,

0:21:49We didn't actually have an iPhone app for a while at Tumblr.

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0:21:58Mobileux actually made one.

0:21:59It was called Tumblorette.

0:22:01There were a few out there by other people.

0:22:03Theirs was by far the best.

0:22:05So Tumblr just bought it and we paid them for years to maintain it for us and upgrade

0:22:09it and everything and they were great.

0:22:10So that's how I know them.

0:22:12Then when it came time for me to need someone to build my Instapaper app for Android, I

0:22:18I went directly to them, 'cause I knew them,

0:22:20I knew them for a while, I knew they were good people,

0:22:23'cause they really are.

0:22:25I would not have trusted that app to just anybody.

0:22:27You know how much I love working with other people.

0:22:30(laughing)

0:22:31So I went to MobileLux knowing that it would be a good fit

0:22:34because I already had worked with them before,

0:22:35I knew they were very good people,

0:22:37both easy to deal with and nice, and also really talented.

0:22:40I can't say enough good things about their work,

0:22:42they're just really good and really easy to work with.

0:22:46So they built the Instapaper app for Android,

0:22:48and it was just, I had to do almost nothing.

0:22:50I didn't even give them source code.

0:22:52I didn't even give them assets.

0:22:53They even just pulled assets out of the

0:22:55out of my iPhone app for me when they didn't even need stuff

0:22:57or they made their own,

0:22:57'cause they have designers there.

0:22:59I gave them almost nothing to work with,

0:23:01except some very loose API documentation,

0:23:04and they made the whole app,

0:23:05and they didn't have to bug me for anything.

0:23:07It's so easy to work with them.

0:23:08Anyway, for more info about MobileLux,

0:23:11or to get them involved with your next product,

0:23:13check them out at mobilelux.com.

0:23:14That's M-O-B-E-L-U-X dot com.

0:23:18Thanks a lot to our friends at Mobileux for sponsoring.

0:23:20Really, I cannot recommend them enough.

0:23:22- All right, let's keep talking about Apple Watch.

0:23:24- Oh, do we have to?

0:23:26- Yes, we do.

0:23:26- It isn't even out yet.

0:23:27- I know, but that doesn't stop us.

0:23:30I mean, come on.

0:23:31- We've got several more months of this.

0:23:33- We have months of follow-up.

0:23:34- It's never gonna end.

0:23:35Another thing that we had a lot of discussion about

0:23:38was how do you sell a 10, 20, $30,000 watch

0:23:44in an existing Apple store.

0:23:46And an anonymous Apple employee wrote in to say,

0:23:51"Many existing Apple stores have private business

0:23:53briefing rooms with the entire product line

0:23:55not tethered to tables.

0:23:57They exist as a space for Apple to meet with businesses

0:24:00and discuss deals and how to integrate Apple.

0:24:02These spaces are a perfect place to showcase

0:24:04high-end watches to customers who would like

0:24:05a private area away from the crowds.

0:24:08All I really want to know is how do I get that kind of access

0:24:11because--

0:24:12- You gotta buy Mac Pros, Casey.

0:24:13You are all about you are evil well played but you're evil because our Apple store our local Apple store

0:24:20Just moved a few spots down in the local mall and now it's actually about the right size for the area in which we live

0:24:28But goodness before it moved. It was like a locker room in there. No matter what time of day you went in

0:24:33So I did not know this was a thing

0:24:36but apparently this is a thing and I'm assuming if you're coming in looking like the kind of

0:24:42Gentleman or woman who is going to buy a $30,000 watch not about how you look

0:24:47It's what you were just asked. I would like to see the Apple watch edition

0:24:51They say well you have to come into the back of this yeah this as Marco said last show

0:24:55I think it's clear that Apple's stores are due for a

0:24:59redesign or an overhaul and

0:25:02Presumably someplace where you could sell really expensive gold watches would be part of that overhaul

0:25:07But in the meantime whenever that happens to land in the meantime the fact that these rooms apparently exist that we don't

0:25:12don't know about because none of us except for Marco would ever be invited into them.

0:25:17It's nice to know that they have an out for some existing stores at least.

0:25:21Exactly.

0:25:22All right.

0:25:23There was a tweet from Scott McIntyre.

0:25:27He noted something that I had not realized that the Apple Watch Edition, which is a terrible

0:25:33name, but it's the expensive Apple Watch.

0:25:35Which do you think is worse, the Apple Watch Edition edition or the Ferrari LaFerrari?

0:25:40La Ferrari but only by shade.

0:25:42- No, I think the Apple Watch Edition is worse

0:25:44because the Ferrari's way better than that watch

0:25:46and you can forgive a lot.

0:25:47(laughing)

0:25:48You can forgive a lot for a Ferrari.

0:25:49- And it isn't just a Camry with a gold coating.

0:25:51- Yeah, exactly.

0:25:53- No, it's just a Fiat with a gold coating, right?

0:25:55Do they still own Fiat? - No, no.

0:25:58- Or Fiat, Federico's gonna kill me.

0:26:00Anyway, so.

0:26:02- By the way, just while we're on the topic of Federico,

0:26:04sorry to interrupt. - Yeah, it's all right.

0:26:05- I thought it was interesting.

0:26:06So there's these rumors that there's gonna be

0:26:08a 12 inch quote iPad Pro coming out

0:26:12like possibly next spring or something.

0:26:14And I'm not sure I believe that,

0:26:15but assuming that even if it does,

0:26:18on a recent episode of, what's the new prompt,

0:26:20it's called Connected, I always forget the names.

0:26:22All right, so the new prompt called Connected,

0:26:25a recent episode of that, Federico mentioned in passing,

0:26:27he said he wouldn't buy that iPad Pro.

0:26:31And I was thinking like, if this thing is real,

0:26:33if Federico Viticci does not want to buy an iPad Pro,

0:26:37Who will?

0:26:38I would.

0:26:39Really?

0:26:40iPad Pro is my thing.

0:26:41How long have I been talking about iPad Pro?

0:26:44Since like before the iPad was released.

0:26:46Yeah, that was me saying all that stuff.

0:26:49Those were the past episodes.

0:26:50Yes, I will buy a gigantic iPad.

0:26:52Why?

0:26:53It's gotta be retina obviously.

0:26:54Why?

0:26:55Because the way I use my iPad is not as a, you know, I use it like a magazine.

0:27:01I like large format magazines.

0:27:02I didn't like it when Edge magazines shrink to the smaller, shrunk to the smaller format.

0:27:06I think next-gen also shrunk.

0:27:07I always know magazines going downhill

0:27:09when they shrink to the wired magazine.

0:27:10I like that big format too.

0:27:12I want big, not 27 inch, you know, but like a 12 inch,

0:27:16I think that's fine.

0:27:18And I want it to be faster and have multitasking

0:27:20and do split screen and do all sorts of awesome stuff

0:27:21like that.

0:27:22We talked about this, don't you remember?

0:27:24- I do, but it just, I think I've tried to force myself

0:27:28to forget that you want an iPad that in almost no way

0:27:31resembles an iPad.

0:27:32- No, it's still a big screen that you hold in your hand

0:27:34it resembles an iPad in all ways,

0:27:36except it's slightly bigger, that's it.

0:27:38And of course it's faster inside

0:27:39and has more RAM and blah, blah, blah, blah,

0:27:41but it totally resembles an iPad.

0:27:42- Anyway, did we even finish this tweet?

0:27:47I didn't even get through finishing a tweet, Dan.

0:27:49- No, Scott McIntyre was saying

0:27:50the digital crown matches the strap.

0:27:52And yes, I knew that, I thought everybody knew that,

0:27:54but he was offering it as an idea of saying,

0:27:57well, that means maybe the straps aren't interchangeable.

0:28:01Like they showed in the video,

0:28:02the straps coming in and out.

0:28:03It's a major selling point of the watch.

0:28:05I can't believe some people still going,

0:28:06"Well, you can't swap it now

0:28:07because the little digital crown is color coded."

0:28:09So what?

0:28:10So what?

0:28:11If the little crown is red, can you only get red bands?

0:28:14No, you use black ones, you can use white ones.

0:28:16I don't know anything about fashion, but I know that.

0:28:17It's all right, right?

0:28:18- Look at the cases for the iPhone 5C.

0:28:21Half the point of all these different colors

0:28:24was that you can mix and match them.

0:28:26Remember, I think it was Schiller had talked about,

0:28:28"Oh, you can have a blue phone with a red case

0:28:31for this mood and a white case for that mood or something like that.

0:28:34I forget exactly what he said, but you're exactly right that it would, they were

0:28:38talking about flipping things up and deliberately getting clashing colors to be

0:28:42in so everyone can be their own special snowflake.

0:28:45And if you don't want that, buy it, get one with the neutral color, get one with

0:28:47a black crown, because I'm sure they're all for that.

0:28:49They have, I think the only color of crowns I saw was like a maroonish red that went

0:28:53with like the dark red band and then a black one, but yeah, the fact that the

0:28:56crowns match does not mean that the straps are not going to be interchangeable.

0:28:59They're totally interchangeable.

0:29:00All right, moving on, this was my addition to the follow-up.

0:29:06Speaking of a friend of the show, Jason Snell, I was reading his Apple Watch Edition review.

0:29:12Should we just call this the Apple Watch Apple, like the Ferrari LaFerrari?

0:29:17So anyways, he said in his review, "Yes, there's a special box.

0:29:22It's covered in leather.

0:29:24Inside is a magnetic charging cradle, and on the back of the box base is a slot into

0:29:29which you plug a lightning connector. That's right. The Apple Watch Edition is so fancy

0:29:33that the box is its own accessory. And I bring that up for a couple reasons. Firstly, I didn't

0:29:38know that that was a thing. And secondly, how is that something that Apple considers

0:29:49the right thing to do? And if you're going to stand here and tell me that, "Oh, a $10,000

0:29:54watch is way too expensive," look at what they're doing for the freaking box.

0:29:58I wonder, does that mean it doesn't come with the charging cable?

0:30:01Yeah, I can understand.

0:30:02It's basically a dock.

0:30:03Like, you know, remember when the iPhones used to come with docks?

0:30:05I think the original came with a dock, did it?

0:30:07I don't remember.

0:30:08I think that's right.

0:30:09But anyway, they used to sell docks.

0:30:10But this seems like if you buy the Apple Watch Edition, it comes with essentially a dock

0:30:14which also happens to be the box, which is a nice place for you to put the watch when

0:30:17you're not using it, which also charges it.

0:30:20But I'm sure Apple will sell the little charging doohickey thing for all the regular people

0:30:24who don't buy the edition edition.

0:30:27So you know it's it's all the same charging amongst all the boxes

0:30:30but yeah this type of luxury thing of like how can we make this as

0:30:33Fancy as possible and they do that with all their products like the boxes are so beautiful and you open them up

0:30:39But it's all disposable stuff you throw away the cardboard box you throw away the little plastic pieces that you peel off and everything

0:30:44This I assume you won't throw away because it's an actual accessory

0:30:48What else is in here? Oh a lot of feedback about chip and pin you want to cover this John because I'm gonna stumble all over

0:30:56Yeah, I don't I still don't understand also

0:30:58We are getting glimpses of what payment is like in the rest of the world from individual people's email

0:31:03So if these people are wrong, I'm sure we go right in and tell us

0:31:05So Martin Gordon wrote in to say that he thinks it's worth clarifying that the u.s

0:31:10Won't be getting chip and pin anytime soon instead

0:31:12We're moving over to the nastier chip and signature our credit cards will come with chips

0:31:15But we won't be issued a pin nor will be will we be required to enter a pin during a transaction

0:31:20So that's kind of crappy

0:31:22We'll have chips in our cards

0:31:24But we'll have still have to sign our name on a piece of paper for transactions that require that type of thing

0:31:28It doesn't surprise me, but that's if this is true. It is disappointing

0:31:33Tom Phillips says chip and pin is so 2004 over the last year or so in the UK

0:31:39We've had the introduction of contactless debit and credit cards colloquially called just contactless you pay a chip enabled terminals or dedicated

0:31:45Contactless points for anything under 20 pounds, and I have no idea how much that is in real money

0:31:51So he's saying if Apple pay were to arrive in UK Europe

0:31:54I do I do wonder whether would succeed our payment system isn't as archaic as the u.s

0:31:58With contactless becoming relatively well established and popular are the benefits of Apple pay attracted enough to get people to switch

0:32:03I'm leaning towards no

0:32:05So this gets back to Tim Cook's big thing about

0:32:07It's not just that you get to wave a doohickey in front of a thing to pay for your stuff

0:32:10It's that you get to not have to bring your wallet with you

0:32:12You don't have to bring all I got to render my phone my car keys and my wallet

0:32:16If you want to go out and you want to have a way to pay for things

0:32:20you can just bring your phone and I guess you just hope the battery doesn't run out before the

0:32:23Bar tab comes at the end of the night anyway

0:32:25He's right like it

0:32:28Apple pay is a lot a lot easier to sell

0:32:31At sort of the dawning of contactless payment here in the US than it is in other countries where contactless is already well established

0:32:38Yeah, I don't know how Apple's gonna do there

0:32:41And if it seemed like all the deals Apple announced with the people who are accepting payments with the exception of like McDonald's and stuff

0:32:46was international, but a lot of the other stores

0:32:49looked like they were US only.

0:32:50So since we live in the US, we'd probably be fine

0:32:55if it just revolutionized payment in the US

0:32:56'cause everything here is so horrible.

0:32:57But yeah, I don't know how well it's gonna do

0:32:59in other countries.

0:33:00Some more Apple Pay.

0:33:04Dave Copeland wrote in to say,

0:33:06"In the US, the fraud policy of the banks

0:33:08"heavily favor the cardholder.

0:33:09"A cardholder can pretty easily have charges removed

0:33:13"by calling the bank who issued the charge.

0:33:15In the UK and Europe, the banks are not so lenient with the cardholders and it's much

0:33:18more difficult to have charges removed.

0:33:20That's why chip and PIN is so prevalent across the pond and that's why waiter brings the

0:33:23charging device to you rather than whisking your card away to the back.

0:33:26So that's another, you know, differences in the different payment environments of who

0:33:31accepts the, who deals with fraud.

0:33:36If something goes wrong, who has to pay for it?

0:33:37In the US, we're all used to, this is one good thing about the US, I guess from a consumer's

0:33:40perspective sort of, kind of, is that if someone steals your credit card and makes a bunch

0:33:44bogus charges with it or some sort of fraud happens we all just assume oh I'll call the

0:33:48credit card company and they'll just take care of it.

0:33:50Like the credit card company just eats all that because they make so much more money

0:33:53having huge interest rates on everyone who doesn't pay their bills on time which is why

0:33:57they still make tons of money in the US.

0:33:59And so they're totally willing to eat all those other charges.

0:34:02We just had yet another one of our credit cards stolen online a couple weeks back and

0:34:07we're just like oh no big deal yeah they bought a bunch of stuff but we know we're not gonna

0:34:10have to pay for that.

0:34:11Apparently in other countries it's not that way and so there is a demand to be more secure and not just have you know

0:34:17Here you go waiter take my credit card walk away with it

0:34:19I don't care what if you go if you skim it or buy something with it online or whatever

0:34:23I'm just gonna have those charges reversed and they'll send me a new card and I won't have to pay for any of it

0:34:27But that's not true in other countries. So they have much more secure payment systems. That's interesting

0:34:30And his final point is something I've learned firsthand at one of the first e-commerce sites

0:34:35I made I guess what 10 years ago now 12 years ago a long time ago

0:34:40is that a lot of these things you see on websites

0:34:44and in payment processing things like the CVV code

0:34:46where you have to enter those little three digit number

0:34:49to pay for something with the credit card

0:34:51or signatures or anything like that,

0:34:52that's entirely at the discretion of the person,

0:34:56of the company selling something.

0:34:58So when you do credit card transactions online,

0:35:00you send the information to the payment processor

0:35:02and they send you back a score that says,

0:35:04here's how trustworthy this is.

0:35:05And you can decide I'm gonna go forward with scores of,

0:35:08you know, above whatever value.

0:35:10So they'll send you back something like,

0:35:12well, you know, the card has a middle name,

0:35:15but they didn't enter middle name

0:35:17and the street address doesn't quite match,

0:35:18but everything else in the address matches.

0:35:20Do you want to proceed with this transaction?

0:35:22If you say yes, you know, the relationship

0:35:24between the business and the credit card processor,

0:35:26there's some relationship there over who covers

0:35:28what percent of fraud or whatever.

0:35:30So it's up to the merchant basically to decide

0:35:33how flexible do you wanna be?

0:35:36And I could say as someone who's implemented this,

0:35:39you tend to be motivated highly to be very flexible,

0:35:42believe it or not.

0:35:43Because if you are super picky and like,

0:35:45well, their address says, you know, 123 Main Street,

0:35:48and the credit card address on file has 123 Main ST,

0:35:52and ST is not the same as street,

0:35:53and our processor is too stupid to figure that out,

0:35:56and so it doesn't give it a perfect score or match on that.

0:35:58Do we wanna go forward?

0:35:59If you only went forward on like the highest possible score,

0:36:02you would never make any money

0:36:03because you would never accept anyone's credit cards.

0:36:06You know, they got the zip code almost right,

0:36:09or they got it right but they didn't add

0:36:10like the plus four on the end of it.

0:36:12Do you wanna go forward?

0:36:13Everything lowers your score if you're not exactly right.

0:36:15And so you have to decide what risk

0:36:17you're willing to tolerate,

0:36:18and usually you're willing to go forward

0:36:20even if they miss tons of stuff.

0:36:21Like if they're slightly off on their address,

0:36:23don't quite get the name right,

0:36:25didn't enter the zip code but the card number is right

0:36:27and don't have a CVV.

0:36:29He's like, just go forward because 99% of the time

0:36:31it'll be fine.

0:36:32And the other percentage of the time,

0:36:33you just eat that and it'll work out.

0:36:35So that's something else to keep in mind

0:36:36with all of this secure payment type stuff.

0:36:39Individual, that's why I imagine,

0:36:41I don't know if this is to be the case,

0:36:42but that's why I imagine a lot of places now

0:36:44don't require you to sign your name anymore

0:36:46is because the risk environment has changed.

0:36:48They say, look, we're not getting any additional security

0:36:50from having somebody scribble something on a piece of paper

0:36:52for their $5 credit card purchase.

0:36:54We'll just swipe the card and let's go.

0:36:58- All right.

0:36:59Do you want to tell me about streamlined Apple Watch shape ideas?

0:37:02Yeah, that was in there from last week.

0:37:04I'm trying to remember what I was thinking of.

0:37:06I know the broad topic was, remember the first Apple Watch show, I was saying I was disappointed

0:37:11that it looked like a little lunchbox on your wrist, just like a little rectangle with straps

0:37:15coming out of it.

0:37:16I was hoping that they would do something to blend the strap into the main part of the

0:37:24watch in a way that was like forward thinking, like, well, now it's got to be a big chunky

0:37:27thing in your wrist.

0:37:28five years from now won't be quite as chunky and it's best to go with an aesthetic that

0:37:33will seem natural then. But they didn't. They didn't try to mask that at all.

0:37:36And there were lots of ideas from listeners about what they could do with a more streamlined shape.

0:37:44If they had a sort of a taper from the big thick part with the battery and the screen

0:37:48to the strap, they could still have removable straps. The straps would just have to incorporate

0:37:52that taper somehow or whatever. But people were full of ideas of what they could do with that

0:37:56extra volume. One of the most popular ideas is why don't they fill that place

0:38:01with battery? Why don't those little wedges that lead from the fat part to the thin part?

0:38:04That's just another opportunity to shove battery in there. I don't like that idea

0:38:08because one, I don't like the idea of having battery wrapped around my wrist

0:38:11because lithium-ion batteries can get very hot and catch fire and stuff and I

0:38:16guess that's also true of the one that's inside the watch but that's inside metal

0:38:19and I feel a little bit better about that. And two, I don't think lithium-ion

0:38:22batteries take very kindly to being bent which means that the taper would have to

0:38:26to be stiff and once you make the taper stiff,

0:38:29then the number of different risks that it can fit on

0:38:33is drastically altered.

0:38:34'Cause like, you do not want, like it's bad enough

0:38:36that you've got the stiff little rectangular part, right?

0:38:39If you made little wings hanging off of the thing

0:38:42that were also stiff because they contain battery,

0:38:44then they would sit very awkwardly on people

0:38:46with either make it so it sits okay on people

0:38:48with very large wrists, but then it looks ridiculous

0:38:50on people with small or vice versa.

0:38:51So that I think is a non-starter.

0:38:53If they made a taper, it would have to,

0:38:54I don't think there's anything useful you can do with that taper.

0:38:58Other than maybe put some sensors in it if you wanted to have the pulse sensors off-centered

0:39:02or something else in there or shove an accelerometer in there.

0:39:06But I don't think you can use it for battery and I don't think you can make it stiff.

0:39:08And anyway, that's not the direction Apple went in.

0:39:10But I think that's all I was thinking of with this one-line follow-up item.

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0:42:46OK.

0:42:47So we got a lot of feedback--

0:42:49well, I thought-- about the casing of the text watch.

0:42:55What?

0:42:55Are we still talking about the watch?

0:42:57Yes.

0:42:58Hey, Jon insists that we got to do all this follow up.

0:43:01It's not that long.

0:43:02It's the quickies.

0:43:02Robert Thompson brought up something I thought was funny.

0:43:05We were talking about the small caps thing with the watch.

0:43:08And I said, well, with the little Apple logo in front

0:43:11of it, and it's kind of silly.

0:43:12We just write it out, Apple Watch,

0:43:13but they always use the little symbol

0:43:14and when they do it in slides,

0:43:16like well we've got a precedent with Apple TV

0:43:17where they show the little Apple logo

0:43:19and I'm like well of course TV is always capitalized,

0:43:21it's you know, short for television or whatever,

0:43:23but Robert Thompson points out that when they do Apple TV,

0:43:25and I'd forgotten about this, they do lowercase TV,

0:43:28so so much for that theory, they do the little Apple

0:43:30and then the lowercase T with a little curl on the bottom

0:43:32and anyway, there's no rhyme or reason to this.

0:43:35Or so we thought until Jim sent us something that said,

0:43:41references a classic vocabulary with the all caps,

0:43:43like Omega, Rolex, Tag, or Tog, I don't know,

0:43:46and that other thing that starts with a B

0:43:48that I'm not gonna pronounce.

0:43:49Apparently they do all uppercase

0:43:50in their name brand things on their watches as well.

0:43:53So maybe Apple's trying to go with that.

0:43:55And again, I think it's crazy to do that

0:43:57and just use the word watch.

0:43:59It is like a silly parody of Rolex, Omega, also watch.

0:44:04- All right, let me explain this to everybody.

0:44:08Apple TV is lower cased in the marketing logo

0:44:11where it's the Apple logo followed by lower cased TV

0:44:14because somebody thought it looked good at the time.

0:44:17Apple Watch, when it's spelled in the marketing way

0:44:19with the Apple logo followed by the all small caps watch,

0:44:22is that way because somebody thought it looked good that way

0:44:25most likely because it's printed very small on the watch

0:44:28and it's very small lettering looks great

0:44:29when it's in small caps.

0:44:30That is why it's that way.

0:44:31It is marketing reasons only, it doesn't matter.

0:44:34- You think they're gonna put the little Apple logo

0:44:36on the watch next to the word watch?

0:44:38like Apple logo watch.

0:44:39- Yeah, didn't they already show that they are doing that?

0:44:42- I don't know.

0:44:43I know they put it up on the slide when they introduced it,

0:44:45but that's, I didn't know they were gonna have it

0:44:47on the watch itself.

0:44:48- We've seen pictures of the back in the video and stuff.

0:44:50I'm pretty sure that does, it doesn't matter.

0:44:51Either way, it doesn't matter.

0:44:53They thought it looked good, that's why it's there.

0:44:55There was not, I guarantee you,

0:44:56there was no thought put into,

0:44:58oh well, it's different from the way we capitalize Apple TV.

0:45:01I guarantee you, no one brought that up and no one cares.

0:45:03- You can change the capitalization

0:45:05and you can change whether you put a little Apple logo,

0:45:07but it's gonna be hard to change the name

0:45:08and the name is still Watch.

0:45:10And I guess the name is still TV too.

0:45:12Apple TV somehow sounds better to me than Apple.

0:45:16Maybe I'll just get used to it,

0:45:17but I feel like I still have not gotten used to MacBook,

0:45:19so I think I'm gonna hold a grudge against this one.

0:45:22- MacBook is permanently awkward, I'll give you that.

0:45:24PowerBook was such a great name and MacBook was so awkward.

0:45:27For whatever it's worth, I did think Apple TV at first

0:45:31was extremely awkward and then I got used to it

0:45:32and didn't care anymore.

0:45:33But I also don't talk about it that much

0:45:35'cause who cares, it's Apple TV.

0:45:36- Yeah.

0:45:37- All right.

0:45:39And then John, would you like to defend yourself

0:45:42regarding iWatch?

0:45:43- No, I keep making that mistake.

0:45:47I'm not doing it on purpose.

0:45:48I'm trying to get better.

0:45:50- So in the follow-up, Nathan Watkins Jr. sent us

0:45:54that Microsoft paid the NFL 400 million to use the Surface

0:45:58and a couple of commentators still called them iPads.

0:46:00And so I assumed that you had placed that in the follow-up

0:46:03strictly to defend your erroneous--

0:46:05- Oh no, that's an interesting story.

0:46:07Like, we're talking about watch being a generic term,

0:46:10but no name that you pick can be defended against

0:46:14whatever the term is for like Kleenex,

0:46:16where the name brand becomes genericized into meaning,

0:46:20do you have a Kleenex for me?

0:46:21Or, God forbid, if you live in the south and someone says,

0:46:24do you want a Coke?

0:46:25And I say, yeah, what kind?

0:46:26Oh, give me a Sprite, yeah, I know.

0:46:28Anyway, anything can be genericized, anything.

0:46:30You are not defended against that by picking watch,

0:46:33by picking iPad.

0:46:35little tablet things are so defined by the iPad product

0:46:38in the same way, I guess, tissues are so defined

0:46:40by the Kleenex brand that the commentators

0:46:43in these NFL programs couldn't help but say,

0:46:45oh, look at those guys in the sidelines holding iPads.

0:46:47They're not, they're Microsoft Surface tablets.

0:46:49But iPad is the word that is the placeholder

0:46:52in lots of people's minds for a tablet thing,

0:46:55even more so than I think iPhone is for smartphone

0:46:57'cause that I think is, you know,

0:46:59Android sells more than the iPhone

0:47:01and it wasn't that far behind,

0:47:02but Apple was so far ahead in the tablets,

0:47:04They were only a company that made any tablet that anyone cared about at all

0:47:07That was any worth a damn at all for so long like it was a year two years before I guess the Amazon

0:47:12Tablets came out or whatever that in the public consciousness if you were holding a thing that looked like a disembodied screen

0:47:17It was an iPad so now poor Microsoft pays 400 million dollars to get

0:47:21Surface into the hands of all these NFL people and the commentators just called them iPads in the same way

0:47:26They might call a tissue Kleenex even though it's not Kleenex brand

0:47:29So I feel bad for Microsoft here

0:47:31But my main point in putting this in is that no name you pick even if it's a name you totally make up like iPad

0:47:37Or you know or Kleenex or anything else you're always at risk of being genericized

0:47:42Indeed and then another piece of follow-up that I put in a while back. There's more I know no hey

0:47:48I was trying to curb it, but we're almost done for plenty time for the stuff

0:47:52But the King told us he decreed that we will do all of the f you

0:47:57Anyway, so I like everyone else hates the if Steve were alive

0:48:01I can't think of the word I'm looking for but but retort I guess for lack of a better word

0:48:06But but trope thank you. That is that is a much better word for it

0:48:10But somebody posted a little while ago a really really really great write-up about

0:48:16How the Apple keynote announcing the six the six plus the watch?

0:48:20Perhaps would have gone different

0:48:23gone differently had Steve done it in the typical Steve style and if the whole if Steve were alive thing also really turns you

0:48:31off just forget that and just

0:48:33Read this this page which we'll put in the show notes

0:48:37just as a general

0:48:40Alternative approach to the keynote and there were certainly some like maybe not factual things

0:48:45But there was some little idiosyncrasies about this that I didn't totally care for but overall

0:48:50I do think that this approach to the keynote just sounded better in principle to me

0:48:57Than the keynote we got and I don't know if either of you two read this and I or had any thoughts about it

0:49:02But I definitely think it's worth those of you listening to read it at your convenience because it was very good

0:49:08Yeah, I read it. It's on it's on jiggity.com

0:49:11And apparently this is written by a person named Jong Moon Kim

0:49:14And I apologize if I mispronounced that I

0:49:18I saw this being spread around and I thought,

0:49:21as probably many listeners thought when he first saw this,

0:49:23I thought, oh God, it's gonna be somebody complaining

0:49:26that Tim isn't Steve, basically.

0:49:28And for some reason I eventually read it

0:49:31against my better judgment.

0:49:33And it really did surprise me with,

0:49:36I thought for sure, again, like as you said,

0:49:37I thought it was gonna be just complaints

0:49:39that Tim is not Steve.

0:49:40And 'cause Tim can't be Steve

0:49:43and he's not trying to be Steve, he's trying to be Tim.

0:49:45And that's, I think, for the best.

0:49:48but, 'cause I think we've seen over time

0:49:50from other tech companies, people who try to imitate

0:49:53Steve Jobs' presentation style always fail

0:49:56and it's really painful.

0:49:57Like, if you've seen like, when Zuckerberg did it,

0:50:00Jeff Bezos tries to do it, God knows everybody

0:50:03from Samsung tries to do it, like, it's painful.

0:50:07And, you know, if you just try to be yourself,

0:50:08it's a much better idea.

0:50:11Anyway, so, I read this and there was a lot in there

0:50:15that I was like, you know, actually,

0:50:17that's a really good point, why didn't they do it that way?

0:50:19Or yeah, that would have actually been better.

0:50:23And they plausibly could have done that.

0:50:24And the main focus of it I think is,

0:50:28and we've seen other people talk about this too,

0:50:32our friend Ben Thompson talked about this a lot as well.

0:50:34In the presentation, Tim basically introduces the watch,

0:50:41not by saying here's why this is necessary,

0:50:45but just by showing it, just being like,

0:50:47here's this thing we built, it's really cool, look.

0:50:49And there it is, and there's the planet,

0:50:51and the sun rises above the planet,

0:50:53and then this watch comes in,

0:50:55and it's like a watch spaceship,

0:50:57and you see all the cool light reflecting off of it,

0:50:58then you see watches spinning around for five minutes,

0:51:01and then Johnny Ives in his white world talking about it,

0:51:03and it just really, it assumes,

0:51:06the presumption of the video was,

0:51:09this is really cool and you need to buy it,

0:51:11and here's why it's so cool.

0:51:13And this is gonna be really big.

0:51:16As opposed to the way Steve would usually introduce

0:51:19new product categories, like the way he did

0:51:20with first the iPod and then the iPhone, of course,

0:51:24and the iPad, he would introduce it kind of first

0:51:26by saying why it needs to exist, why we need to want it,

0:51:31and then showing it to us, and then saying,

0:51:33given all of the things I just said

0:51:36on why you should want this and why this device

0:51:37needs to exist, here it is.

0:51:40And Tim really didn't do that

0:51:43with the Apple Watch introduction.

0:51:44I almost said I watch.

0:51:46Tim didn't really do that.

0:51:47He just showed it and said, "Here it is."

0:51:49And we're kind of left to our own devices

0:51:52to figure out, well, okay, this thing is cool

0:51:55and it looks cool, but why do we want to wear a watch?

0:51:58Especially for the many of us

0:52:00for whom we haven't been wearing watches

0:52:02since we got cell phones,

0:52:04because cell phones made watches unnecessary

0:52:05for almost everybody except for fashion reasons.

0:52:07And even then, it's not that common,

0:52:10and especially among younger people.

0:52:11So he didn't do that.

0:52:14So I think there is a lot of valid criticism

0:52:16to be made about the way this was introduced

0:52:19in the presentation.

0:52:20And this article on jiggity.com was really good.

0:52:25I thought it was, at parts it was a little bit over the top,

0:52:29or a little bit contrived, but overall,

0:52:30I'd say it was very good, and way better

0:52:32than I expected from the premise.

0:52:34- Completely agree.

0:52:35- I didn't really like this article.

0:52:37I think I think what it leaned on a lot of is two things one the fact that we all miss Steve Jobs and leaned on

0:52:44that it's like hey, wouldn't it be great with this guy was still alive. Yes, it would and

0:52:47-

0:52:49It played fast and loose with the actual things that they were announcing

0:52:52It made Apple announce things that Apple didn't actually announce and boy

0:52:55Wouldn't it be cool if Apple had said X Y & Z and did X Y & Z I?

0:52:59Agree that Steve Jobs would have presented this better than Tim Cook

0:53:03I don't think anyone will disagree that Steve Jobs is a better presenter

0:53:06The root of it is most likely in the particulars of the person in that Steve Jobs was excited about different things than Tim Cook

0:53:14Is excited about for the price? I think Tim Cook really is excited about the watch

0:53:17He's putting his two hands in the air and shaking his fists

0:53:19like I

0:53:20Really believe he is excited but he's excited about different

0:53:22Aspects of the product and Steve Jobs was excited about the same aspects of the product that we're excited about cool technology

0:53:29Ways to change your life with with technology

0:53:32particular small features

0:53:34You know the little genie going in and out of the dock like all the things we you want about Steve Jobs also

0:53:40It would not be Tim is excited about different stuff. So Tim is a less relatable presenter the

0:53:44main value of those articles providing so what Marco got at is

0:53:48There was no one there explained to us in the way that Steve Jobs felt like it was necessary to explain to us

0:53:54Why we're doing this Tim tries to explain why or has other people come on stage to do it, but they speak in

0:54:01It's more kind of like they speak in generalities or in sort of corporate speak or in big picture speak where Steve Jobs would

0:54:07Break it down at a much more primal level and say here's the problem. Here's what we thought about this

0:54:12We thought about that and here's our solution and we think you're gonna use it for this

0:54:14And there's been good Steve Jobs presentation bad one. So the reason I like this article is like

0:54:19Wouldn't it be great if this guy you really love is still alive and he he announced things in a super dramatic way and also

0:54:24Announce some cooler things than were announced and that I feel like is just it's cheating

0:54:29You know, this is not this article is not a guideline for how Apple can do better presentations

0:54:34unless they can do cooler things and resurrect Steve Jobs. So I would have rather seen this article be

0:54:41I mean I have yet to see the article that says if Steve Jobs was alive X Y & Z that I've liked and this continues

0:54:47that trend. This article would have been better explaining what was wrong with Tim Cook's presentation

0:54:51You can compare it to successful presentations by Steve Jobs

0:54:54But I think if this actual presentation happened the way they said it would be overblown for what they actually announced

0:55:00You know our personal universe company Apple if Apple has said that on stage even with Steve Jobs. It would be ridiculous. So yeah

0:55:07Did not like it as much as you guys did but no, I mean, you know, it was not perfect

0:55:12But I think it did it did make a lot of very good points and it did

0:55:14It did show a lot of things that Apple could have done

0:55:18plausibly and differently and and they chose not to I mean it also depends on like the context like I think the

0:55:23Couple I mean it was at this most recent probably like this most recent WWDC I thought was not a Steve Jobs style presentation

0:55:31But was really good. Like this is the type of stuff that Steve Jobs wouldn't have known how to describe in

0:55:36an interesting way

0:55:38All the the new language the development tools that they showing the new versions of the OS all that software and developer tool stuff

0:55:46Was presented by people who knew about it in a style that is different than Steve Jobs's style

0:55:50And I thought it was one of the better

0:55:52WWC keynotes for the audience that it was given to maybe not to the press or whatever but for room for old developers

0:55:58Everybody was just you know was jazzed if everyone had something to be jazzed about in that

0:56:03WWC presentation I think I've only been to what for them in person or whatever. I think that was extremely

0:56:08successful compared to the last jobs W obviously he was in very bad health there

0:56:13But he just didn't have the type of stuff to announce that he likes to announce

0:56:16So the watch one was definitely in Steve Jobs's wheelhouse

0:56:19But there are other presentations that that are in the current apples wheelhouse

0:56:22Yeah, it was very clear like it Steve Jobs was always very bad at hiding when he didn't feel that strongly about something

0:56:30He was very bad at hiding that I think Tim Cook has kind of a different problem

0:56:36Which is Tim Cook is really excited about certain things and he doesn't either

0:56:40He doesn't understand that he needs to kind of lead us to that point before just telling us how excited he is

0:56:45or he doesn't know how to lead us to that point.

0:56:48- Or he's excited about things that we're not.

0:56:50Like, I bet if he presented to like,

0:56:53the organization of people who manage supply chains,

0:56:55whatever their name is, like,

0:56:56he would be super excited about the details of those things.

0:56:59You know, like, he's excited about different things.

0:57:03I don't want to say he wants to talk about finance

0:57:05or supply chains or making deals or like,

0:57:09take an example if we ever get to it.

0:57:11The Charlie Rose interview

0:57:13and the interviews that Tim Cook has given

0:57:15show the things that he's excited about.

0:57:18They just don't happen to be the same things

0:57:20as Steve Jobs is excited about.

0:57:21He's just a different person.

0:57:22Like, Pavon in the chat room said that that article

0:57:25struck him as Steve Jobs fan fiction.

0:57:27I think that is a reasonable approximation of what it is.

0:57:30And if you like Steve Jobs fan fiction,

0:57:32then that's a good example of it,

0:57:33but I was not in the mood for Steve Jobs fan fiction.

0:57:36(laughing)

0:57:37- I would say that, let's jump to the Tim Cook,

0:57:40Charlie Rosen interview, 'cause we're talking about it anyway.

0:57:42That was, first of all, very good.

0:57:44It took me a second, I ended up downloading it

0:57:47from somewhere and watching it with QuickTime Player

0:57:49at like 1.5x because it typically is not a fast speaker

0:57:52and it got a little bit slow at times.

0:57:54But, so I had to get through it twice

0:57:58before I really appreciated it.

0:58:00'Cause the first time I just kept zoning out.

0:58:02But, switched to other tabs and doing other things

0:58:05and oh, that's right, that's playing in the background.

0:58:07Anyway, so once I paid attention to it,

0:58:09it really is quite good.

0:58:11it does show like it shows Tim getting slightly at ease here and there and and

0:58:18you could tell like the real Tim is coming out when he's slightly off the

0:58:23cuff and you can tell he doesn't really go off the cuff ever like and this is

0:58:27probably as far as he ever gets you know because he's a very like very controlled

0:58:31person in public you could tell he says things very deliberately very

0:58:36thoughtfully but just seeing that little bit more of his personality in this was

0:58:41I think, extremely positive and interesting. And I want to see more of the Tim Cook that

0:58:47we saw on Charlie Rose. I think he should let more of that come out because what we

0:58:54saw there was Tim really caring very strongly about certain things like privacy. Where he

0:59:00came out so hard on privacy, and we'll talk about that too I guess. Tim is not just some

0:59:06boring paper pusher. He is a very strongly principled guy and he feels very strongly

0:59:12about certain things and I feel like so far he has not let a lot of that out, possibly

0:59:18because he didn't think it was the right time, there were so many eyes on him, everyone

0:59:25looking for him to mess up or do something to indicate that he's not fit for the job

0:59:30or whatever so you know maybe he's been going into it slowly but the the Tim

0:59:36Cook that we saw in Charlie Rose I would like to see more from. Did you read that

0:59:41was it a Bloomberg interview there's some lengthy interview with him. I

0:59:45haven't gotten to it yet what was with those covers by the way what was that

0:59:48yeah like those are real? Yeah I thought they were fake for the first several

0:59:52tweets too and then the series of tweets came in where everyone being flabbergasted they was real and I

0:59:57to join them in their surprise about that.

0:59:59- In their flabbergastedness.

1:00:00- I had forgot that was a paper magazine that had a cover.

1:00:03I thought it was just online anyway.

1:00:05But anyway, I think it was Bloomberg.

1:00:06I'll try to find the link for the show notes.

1:00:08There was an interview that was like a condensed version

1:00:10of what I thought were the most revealing parts

1:00:12of the Charlie Rose interview, and it gets at

1:00:14what Tim Cook really cares about beyond the things,

1:00:19beyond obviously his job, which is managing a big company,

1:00:22and CEOs usually tend not to talk to the public

1:00:25about aspects of their job, because who cares about others

1:00:28except for other CEOs.

1:00:28That's why I was saying if Tim Cook was talking

1:00:30to a group of other CEOs or other people

1:00:32who have similar jobs managing large organizations,

1:00:34he would have a lot of interesting things to say to them,

1:00:36but not to consumers.

1:00:37And then there's a technology part which Tim Cook

1:00:40appreciates and understands, but is not a geek about,

1:00:43like Steve Jobs was, right?

1:00:44He's not obsessed with one particular software feature

1:00:47or one particular hardware feature

1:00:48and just marveling over it and everything.

1:00:50You can tell that.

1:00:51When you're the CEO, you can imbue the company

1:00:54with some aspects of your personality.

1:00:56And like Margaret was saying,

1:00:58Tim Cook has been hesitant to do that thus far,

1:01:03kind of like just being the sort of guy behind the scenes

1:01:06like he has been for so long.

1:01:07But I think maybe in the Mac Pro, WDC keynote,

1:01:11what was that, 2011 or 2012?

1:01:14That's when his personality started to come out

1:01:15a little bit more where he was starting to become willing

1:01:19to use Apple, the company, as a vehicle

1:01:22to achieve goals that are personally important to him.

1:01:26And those goals, as expressed on Charlie Rosen

1:01:28in his interviews, are about the environment,

1:01:32privacy, and human rights and diversity.

1:01:35Topics that have very little to do with Apple Watches

1:01:39or IMAX or anything like that.

1:01:43But now he is finally coming out and saying,

1:01:45I'm the leader of the biggest company in the United States,

1:01:48maybe the biggest company in the world.

1:01:50I have tremendous power.

1:01:52I want to use that power to achieve things

1:01:55that are important to me because I think they're good ideas.

1:01:58They're not the goals of the company.

1:01:59Apple is not turning into an organization

1:02:02that just deals with the environment

1:02:03and human rights and privacy.

1:02:04But in the course of doing the things that Apple does,

1:02:07making great products that make people's lives better

1:02:09that they really love and blah, blah, blah,

1:02:10all that stuff, they can also do these things.

1:02:14And part of that is him going on shows and saying,

1:02:16"Here's what we really care about."

1:02:17Like the diversity report that I was talking

1:02:19in the text interview about that diversity report

1:02:22they put up, I think we mentioned on the show,

1:02:23saying what percentage of Apple's employees are,

1:02:26what age, what race, what gender, all this other stuff.

1:02:30And Tim Cook saying that internally there was friction

1:02:33about like, should we publish this?

1:02:35'Cause we look terrible.

1:02:36Like our diversity numbers are not good.

1:02:38Should we even publish this?

1:02:39And Tim Cook made the decision, apparently,

1:02:41over the objections of other people,

1:02:43like no, we have to walk the walk.

1:02:45I care about diversity.

1:02:47If we're not doing a good job,

1:02:48We want to be transparent about that.

1:02:49We're going to put out this thing."

1:02:50And right in the thing that they published,

1:02:52just, you know, Tim Cook saying a little text

1:02:54and things says, "We are not happy with these numbers.

1:02:57How often do you see a gigantic company publish something

1:03:00that they know will essentially make them look bad

1:03:02and admit in plain language right in the thing,

1:03:05this report shows that we are not achieving our goal

1:03:08as well as I want to.

1:03:10We're not happy with this.

1:03:11We're going to try to do better,

1:03:12but here's what it is anyway."

1:03:14So that's what's fascinating to me is that

1:03:17Now the biggest company in the world is being run by somebody who cares about things and

1:03:22is willing to put his money and his company where his mouth is on them, like with their

1:03:26whole data center, trying to run an entire data center off renewable energy, despite

1:03:30the fact that it adds tremendous complication and cost, I'm sure.

1:03:33And they're doing the same thing with a crazy spaceship type of thing.

1:03:35Like, yeah, we have enough money, we can just throw a data center up there and we can just

1:03:38pay for electricity, we'll be fine.

1:03:39But can we build gigantic solar farms in North Carolina to do it?

1:03:42You're just making it harder for yourself.

1:03:43You're just like, it doesn't make business sense, right?

1:03:46That's like when those people came up

1:03:47in the shareholder meeting,

1:03:48and Tim Cook practically shouted the guy down and said,

1:03:50"Look, if you're looking for someone

1:03:51"who's just gonna make decisions

1:03:52"based on return on investment, get out of the stock.

1:03:55"You know, tough luck."

1:03:57That's the real Tim Cook.

1:03:58And we don't relate to it as much because it's like,

1:04:01"Oh, I like the Steve Jobs.

1:04:02"He was totally into like the pixels

1:04:04"and the cool edges and the designs,

1:04:05"and Johnny Ive likes, you know,

1:04:07"carving things with diamonds and whatever."

1:04:08Well, Tim Cook cares about privacy,

1:04:10human rights, and the environment, and overall health.

1:04:12And those topics, although they may not be tech nerdy,

1:04:16it's refreshing to see them sort of bravely and boldly

1:04:20both expressed and acted on by someone

1:04:23with as much power and money as Tim Cook.

1:04:25- And I think what Tim is doing is not only

1:04:29like interesting and progressive from like a social

1:04:32and environmental perspective,

1:04:34it's also just good business.

1:04:36Like he's not gonna do anything that's gonna like

1:04:38really damage Apple's business.

1:04:40He's smarter than that.

1:04:41Everything he does is carefully measured.

1:04:44He knows what he's getting into,

1:04:46and he's doing it because he has probably decided

1:04:50it's worth it and that it will be a net gain

1:04:51for the company.

1:04:52When you're as big as Apple, as they know,

1:04:56as we all know, you get people attacking you

1:04:59for all sorts of crazy stuff,

1:05:01and some of it is fair and some of it isn't.

1:05:03And it is very important for Apple

1:05:06to maintain its reputation, especially going into fashion.

1:05:09but it's very important for them to not be known

1:05:12as the company that has all these labor abuses in China

1:05:16and not be known as the company that's destroying

1:05:17the environment with all the data centers

1:05:18and everything else, and not be known as the company

1:05:20that sells all your data to advertisers.

1:05:22It is very important for Apple to maintain these images,

1:05:27to address the issues that are coming up in technology.

1:05:31So a few years ago, those issues were environmental.

1:05:34Today, they're diversity.

1:05:36These issues are coming up and they're being talked about

1:05:38and accusations are being thrown around.

1:05:41What are you doing about it?

1:05:42What are you doing about it?

1:05:43Your company's the problem, your company's the problem.

1:05:45Tim Cook is getting ahead of these things when he can,

1:05:47or at least responding to them when he needs to.

1:05:50And that, I think, serves Apple well overall.

1:05:53Releasing a diversity report and saying,

1:05:57I'm not happy with this,

1:05:58and we're trying to do better than this, that is smart.

1:06:02It is both socially responsible and good business.

1:06:06And I think that, again, is what we're seeing

1:06:08from Tim Cook all over the place.

1:06:09He does things that are smart and good business,

1:06:13and he, you know, 'cause the ROI thing on this stock,

1:06:17like, it was addressing a question

1:06:20about environmental stuff and making things

1:06:22accessible by the blind and everything,

1:06:23and it's like, that is not costing Apple

1:06:27a meaningful amount, like, it is not making them

1:06:29a severely less profitable company,

1:06:33and it certainly is not making them

1:06:34unprofitable company to care about things like this.

1:06:37So it isn't harming their business meaningfully.

1:06:40And shouting down some guy in a shareholder meeting

1:06:42probably helped their business

1:06:44because that was reported everywhere

1:06:45as look how good this guy is.

1:06:47He has things under control and he's principled.

1:06:51He does things that help.

1:06:53- Yeah, so I was trying to find the exact thing

1:06:56in the interview with him,

1:06:58but it was a similar question from the interviewer

1:07:00about whether there is some tension

1:07:03between you and the other people in your organization

1:07:05about what the company should do.

1:07:07And the question put Tim Cook in the role

1:07:10of someone who wanted to just go ahead with something.

1:07:12I think it was maybe like, you know,

1:07:13what if Johnny Ive said it's not good enough,

1:07:15but you said, well, we gotta ship something now.

1:07:17And Tim Cook, maybe it was a different question,

1:07:19but anyway, Tim Cook's answer made the point

1:07:20that he's not a short-term CEO.

1:07:23He's not looking for, we gotta make our numbers next quarter.

1:07:26And that's what you were getting at, Marco,

1:07:27with like, these things look like,

1:07:30oh, you're being so brave or whatever,

1:07:31but they also happen to be in the long run

1:07:34better for the company, better for the planet,

1:07:36better for everybody.

1:07:37It's just that there's so much thinking,

1:07:38especially in large corporations,

1:07:40like I don't care what's good in the long run,

1:07:41just make your money now, get it while the getting's good,

1:07:44and forget about long-term consequences.

1:07:46And the right decision,

1:07:47if your time window is longer than a year or two,

1:07:50the right decision is to care about renewable energy,

1:07:52to care about diversity,

1:07:54to care about the working conditions in China

1:07:56and all that other stuff, right?

1:07:57Those are actually not only the right thing to do,

1:08:00but better for the company.

1:08:01The same way that Apple has proven,

1:08:02like if we just care,

1:08:03if we pay attention to the products,

1:08:04we don't make a million products

1:08:06to try to sell into every little market category.

1:08:07Some people want a hardware keyboard, some people don't.

1:08:09Some people want a big computer, some people want a small.

1:08:11We have to fill every single little thing?

1:08:13No, they have a small number of products

1:08:15that make them as good as they can,

1:08:16that diversify as needed,

1:08:17but they're not like all those other companies

1:08:18that like HP, you just will make a product

1:08:20for every single person, every single purpose.

1:08:22We just gotta get the money now, get it, get it, get it.

1:08:24Long-term, that's not good.

1:08:25Long-term, Apple says focus on the product,

1:08:27make a few products really awesome.

1:08:28don't get into businesses where just for the hell of it,

1:08:30like one of the things that we're talking about is

1:08:32all the different kinds of products that Apple researched

1:08:34and decided not to make.

1:08:36Short-term, that looks dumb.

1:08:37It seems like a waste of money.

1:08:39Long-term, Apple has proven that it's a winning strategy.

1:08:41So all these things that Tim Cook does

1:08:44and that Apple the company does

1:08:45are always focused on the long-term

1:08:47and to people so focused on the short-term,

1:08:50it seems like they're making the wrong call,

1:08:53but it is actually the right thing to do

1:08:55And also the thing that will make Apple successful

1:08:58years and years down the line.

1:09:00Whether investors care about that

1:09:03'cause they wanna get in and out of the stock

1:09:04'cause the average, what is the average time

1:09:06a stock is held now these days is like less than a year

1:09:08when we are-- - I think it's a few minutes.

1:09:10- Well, we're not talking about high-frequency trading,

1:09:12but yeah, it's just a different mindset.

1:09:14And it is the correct mindset and it's kind of,

1:09:17that's nice, that's fine for Merlin type of situation

1:09:19where it's like, well, if you're Apple,

1:09:20you can afford to have that thing, but it's the reverse.

1:09:23If you have that attitude,

1:09:24That's your only chance of ever becoming a company like Apple.

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1:12:38- Marco and I both received our new iPhone 6s

1:12:43on this past Friday.

1:12:46We are recording on Wednesday night.

1:12:48I've had a couple of work days with the iPhone 6

1:12:52that I ordered.

1:12:53To recap, I ordered a iPhone 6 Space Gray 64 gig

1:12:57like pretty much everyone on Twitter.

1:12:58And I don't know what to think.

1:13:03It is too big.

1:13:04- What, the 4.7 is too big?

1:13:07- It's too big.

1:13:08- I played with one this week.

1:13:09I gotta say I disagree.

1:13:10I was pleasantly surprised at how not big

1:13:13the small one felt.

1:13:15So I think the problem is, is that I like using my iPhone one-handed quite a lot.

1:13:24You could make a legitimate argument that I don't need to most times, but nevertheless,

1:13:29I tend to use my phone one-handed.

1:13:34And so because of that, when I hold my phone the way I'm used to, which is my pinky covering

1:13:41the lightning port as kind of like the weight bearing, the load bearing finger if you will.

1:13:48My ring and middle fingers on the left, this is my right hand, ring and middle fingers

1:13:54on the left hand side of the phone. My pointer finger basically on the Apple logo and then

1:14:00my right thumb doing all the operating. I can only get about two thirds up the screen.

1:14:04You're holding it wrong, Casey. You're totally holding it. I don't know how you're

1:14:08you're doing that.

1:14:10- Because it's what I'm used to.

1:14:11- I actually gotta watch you more closely

1:14:12the next time I see you.

1:14:13That seems like the most precarious way to hold this thing.

1:14:16Like, I don't have my iPod touch with me,

1:14:18I did the reach test on the iPhone 6

1:14:20to see what I could reach with my normal grip.

1:14:22And I thought this was everybody's normal grip,

1:14:24but hearing you just describe that,

1:14:25that is not the way I hold the phone.

1:14:27I have with the corner sort of nestled

1:14:28in the palm of my hand,

1:14:29I can reach everywhere across the face of the 6

1:14:31with my thumb except for the farthest corner.

1:14:34And the farthest corner,

1:14:35I am, this is like maybe half an inch at most

1:14:40I'm missing from it.

1:14:40This is without me shimmying or moving my palm at all.

1:14:43Just palm anchor, you might, all four fingers

1:14:46wrapped on one side of the phone.

1:14:47The other corner of the phone nestled into my palm

1:14:49and my thumb sweeping the thing.

1:14:51I can reach the top right corner,

1:14:52I can reach the bottom left corner,

1:14:54I can reach the bottom right corner.

1:14:55Top left I can't quite reach,

1:14:56I would have to adjust my grip.

1:14:58But that's more than I thought I would be able to reach.

1:15:01I was envisioning me not be able to reach any corners

1:15:03except for the one closest to my palm.

1:15:05You with the balancing on the pinky

1:15:06with your pointer finger on the Apple logo,

1:15:08I don't know what you're doing.

1:15:09Put all four fingers on the side of the,

1:15:10especially now that they have the power button on the side,

1:15:12you can hit it with your thumb.

1:15:13- Yeah, and to be honest, I think you're probably right,

1:15:16that I just need to give up several years of habit

1:15:19and adjust, and that's reasonable.

1:15:22But--

1:15:23- It'll be more secure.

1:15:24I'm saying this other grip, even with the five size thing,

1:15:28that grip is better for that one

1:15:29because you're less likely to drop it.

1:15:31- No, I'm less likely to drop it

1:15:32because I have my pinky blocking it from being dropped.

1:15:35No, that's just making this little bounce cradle someone jostles your hand to go flipping out of the thing because you're not actually gripping it

1:15:40You're just sort of balancing it on it. It's like sheet music sitting on on the sheet music stands. It's on bumps into it

1:15:46It's gonna go tumbling off mine. I'm actually holding in my hand. No in Casey's defense

1:15:50I hold it

1:15:51I think it sounds like the same way as Casey and it is it is a quite secure hold if you if you just hold

1:15:57It like with you know thumb and and you know your thumb pad

1:16:00whatever that's called on one side and then like all four fingers on the other side across the middle then it can slide up and down

1:16:06Whereas if like if you take if you just take the pinky and you bring it down on the bottom

1:16:11Then you're anchoring the bottom right corner

1:16:13Exactly. It's not moving. I've got my iPod touch. It's not moving anywhere

1:16:18I can't go down because it's literally in the palm of my hand

1:16:20It can't go up because I'm gripping with all four fingers in my and the side of my hand like it

1:16:24I have it in a vice grip

1:16:25It's not I don't have to daintily hold it and have it sort of nestled in a holster shaped like my hand

1:16:30I'm actually holding it

1:16:32so

1:16:34Anyway, we could are we I'm sure I'm also causing antennae issues as well because I'm holding it wrong. Anyway

1:16:41I do like if you leave aside

1:16:45The one-handed use which I still haven't come to grips with be that my fault be at the phone's fault one way or another

1:16:51I haven't come to that was a pun. I

1:16:54I haven't come to grips with one handed use, but nevertheless, the screen itself, I do

1:17:00like.

1:17:01I do like it being a little bigger.

1:17:03I do think it looks better, although I don't, that must be in my head because the 4.7 inch

1:17:09screen is pretty much identical to the 5S screen, isn't it?

1:17:12No, no, it has better viewing angles, better color depth.

1:17:17And what about that curved glass?

1:17:18I love the curved edges and the curved glass.

1:17:21Love it.

1:17:22So here's the thing about the curved glass.

1:17:23When I first got my phone, and I did not have a case for it yet, I really liked the curved

1:17:29glass.

1:17:30And the most awesome part about the curved glass to me was the swipe from the left edge

1:17:37to the right, which is a back gesture and also an unlock gesture, although obviously

1:17:42you don't use that too terribly often with Touch ID.

1:17:45It makes that gesture so much nicer than it was on the squared off 5S.

1:17:51But I had an Apple leather case for my 5S and it was far and away the best case I've

1:17:59ever used on any phone.

1:18:01I had had bumpers before.

1:18:02I occasionally would use battery cases if I'm at a conference.

1:18:05And I loved the leather case in the 5S, so I got one for the 6.

1:18:10And the problem with the Apple leather case for the 6 is that the way it mounts, it kind

1:18:16of covers up the nice bit of the curved edge of the glass and just kind of ruins that feel.

1:18:24Yeah, I am worried about cases on the curve thing. That's what I was thinking about when

1:18:27I was holding it. How are you going to put a case on this and preserve the things that are good

1:18:31about it? I don't know. They don't really work. I actually got to hold Casey's phone and I had

1:18:36the exact same problem with it. It's like, once you have the case on it, it really does ruin that

1:18:40curve.

1:18:41And so I don't know what to do because I am enough of a klutz that I often bang my

1:18:46phone into things because I'm not paying attention to what I'm doing.

1:18:49Knock on—well, there's no wood nearby—but knock on glass.

1:18:53Knock on bent aluminum.

1:18:54Yeah, exactly.

1:18:55Knock on bent aluminum.

1:18:56I haven't dropped a phone ever to the point that the screen shatters, but I'm so scared,

1:19:02especially since the back and the sides of this thing are so darn slippery or slippy

1:19:06or whatever. I'm so scared I'm going to drop it, especially since I can't anchor it on

1:19:11my pinky ahem.

1:19:12Just grip it. You won't drop it if you grip it. Yeah. Did you buy the extra insurance?

1:19:18I did not.

1:19:19It's like 50 bucks, right?

1:19:20It's 70 or 80, isn't it now?

1:19:22I'll probably buy it just because it's still cheaper than getting it. I don't trust myself

1:19:26not to drop it. We've got it on my wife's phones. Of course, that means she hasn't dropped

1:19:29them, but I just feel better buying it in the grand scheme of things. I worry less about

1:19:33it.

1:19:34on that is I stopped buying AppleCare

1:19:38and various protection plans and warranties a few years ago.

1:19:40And my current policy is the first time I really need one

1:19:44and regret not having bought one,

1:19:46I'll start buying them again.

1:19:47So far it hasn't happened, I'm coming out way ahead.

1:19:50- Yeah, I tend to agree with you,

1:19:51but remind me of that when I take the case

1:19:53off this thing and drop it.

1:19:55- I don't buy it on my Macs.

1:19:58I've never really bought it on my Macs

1:19:59'cause I always assumed like they're not going to be

1:20:01in a harsh environment.

1:20:02But once I'm carrying something around,

1:20:03I have dropped my iPod touch many, many times.

1:20:05Just so happens it hasn't broken.

1:20:07I do have a case on it.

1:20:09If I can find a case that I like for the six,

1:20:12assuming I buy one, that is like this TPU Belkin case

1:20:17I have on my iPod touches, I really like this case.

1:20:20And this case totally annihilate the curve.

1:20:23But if the edges feel like this iPod touch case was,

1:20:26does, it's got, it feels like the 5C.

1:20:28It's like a little bathtub, like a squared off bathtub.

1:20:31(laughing)

1:20:32- I would be fine with that.

1:20:33I like how the 5C feels as well.

1:20:35I think the 6 is great.

1:20:37Without a case, I'll have to see what it's like

1:20:39with cases to decide.

1:20:40But anyway, the result of my trying the 6 in person

1:20:44is that I think the 6 is not too ridiculous

1:20:46and now all I'm doing is just waiting for the October event

1:20:48to see if there's any iPod Touch action happening there.

1:20:51- So are you implying that if there is no new iPod Touch,

1:20:55you're gonna finally get an iPhone?

1:20:56- Probably.

1:20:57- Wow, this is big. - I'm so happy.

1:21:00- And I'm guessing if there's a new iPod touch,

1:21:03it would not have these bigger screens.

1:21:05I'm guessing it would be like, you know,

1:21:07basically a 5S or less. - Let's see.

1:21:09- Because, I think we discussed this already,

1:21:11but yeah, I think the bigger screens

1:21:14really require that hardware display scaler,

1:21:16which is probably only in the A8.

1:21:18- Well, I don't mean the Plus, I just mean the 6 size.

1:21:20- No, I know, same thing.

1:21:21It also has a scaler. - Put an A7 in there.

1:21:23It doesn't have a scaler in the--

1:21:25- Sure it does. - Does it?

1:21:26- Yep, sure does.

1:21:27- It's not scaling up anything.

1:21:29It's just a higher resolution.

1:21:30- It scales up the apps

1:21:31when they aren't made for the screen.

1:21:33- Oh, well yeah, but the display,

1:21:35that's only for apps that aren't updated for the 6, right?

1:21:37- Yeah, but either way,

1:21:38I'm pretty sure the scaler is there,

1:21:40and I'm pretty sure that they would not have a device

1:21:43with that size screen in this day and age

1:21:46without that scaler, which probably means,

1:21:48and they also probably wouldn't make a custom part

1:21:50for the iPod touch since nobody buys them.

1:21:52- They made a big deal about the scaler,

1:21:54but my iPad 3, you can run,

1:21:55you run doubled iPhone apps on the iPad for years.

1:21:58it's fine.

1:21:59- I'm guessing they're not gonna do it

1:22:01until they can put an A8 in it.

1:22:02- Well, I was saying is like this,

1:22:05not the big size 'cause that one,

1:22:07I think you would need the A8 in there to do that.

1:22:09But for the other size, that would make a great iPod touch.

1:22:13Like that size screen for the kids thing

1:22:16where you don't wanna give your kid a phone,

1:22:18but you want them to be able to play iOS games.

1:22:20It's thin, it's got a bigger screen.

1:22:22It's a total win for an iPod.

1:22:23If they still feel like an iPod touch

1:22:25is the thing they wanna make,

1:22:26I think that size is a natural fit.

1:22:27the bigger size, not so much.

1:22:29- That's an interesting point, I agree with you.

1:22:31To come back to the iPhones and to get toward the 6 Plus,

1:22:36a couple other quick thoughts about the 6.

1:22:38The Apple leather case no longer covers

1:22:40the bottom of the phone, which looks a little jankier,

1:22:45but is actually kind of convenient

1:22:47because there's no real headphone cutout anymore

1:22:49so that you have to worry about.

1:22:50And additionally, there's no lightning port cutout anymore

1:22:53because I found that, I think it was the Amazon

1:22:57Lightning cables were too thick at the head in order to get into the little cutout for

1:23:03the lightning port on the 5S case.

1:23:05So I do kind of like that.

1:23:07And I do love the feel of the Apple leather cases.

1:23:10And it makes the protruding lens not be an issue anymore.

1:23:14But I don't know, sitting here now, I love, I think the phone looks good.

1:23:20I like having a little bit more real estate, more than I thought I would in fact.

1:23:24However, every time I pick up Erin's phone and she's staying with the 5S by her own choice,

1:23:30I think to myself, "Well, the first thought is, 'Holy crap, this is tiny.'

1:23:34The second thought I have is, 'My goodness, it feels so much better in my hand.'"

1:23:39Now what do you think, Marco?

1:23:41Well, first of all, let me address the cosmetic angle.

1:23:45Both of our friends, CGP Grey on the most recent episode of Hello Internet, which I

1:23:49highly recommend, it's a fantastic podcast, I'll put that in the show notes, CGP Grey

1:23:54went on a nice rant in the last episode of Hello Internet

1:23:57where he basically said he can't believe

1:24:00how unbelievably ugly the iPhone 6 is.

1:24:02- Really?

1:24:03- And also our friend Virginia Roberts,

1:24:05I wrote a blog post I believe it was the other day,

1:24:08we'll put that in the show notes as well,

1:24:10making some similar complaints about the appearance of it.

1:24:13So CGP Grey's main complaints were the rounded glass,

1:24:18first of all, and I think Virginia complained about it too.

1:24:21The rounded glass, I think they are right,

1:24:23It doesn't look as good.

1:24:25Like if you see the way the light reflects off of it,

1:24:28it does almost look like a plastic covering.

1:24:30It does not look as good.

1:24:31However, I think it feels so much better

1:24:35that I think it's worth it.

1:24:36- I think it looks good too.

1:24:38The ugliest phone design is the 5 and 5S design.

1:24:42Maybe the 3GS comes close,

1:24:44but I really didn't like the 5, 5S design.

1:24:47I thought it was just terrible in all ways.

1:24:48It could be just super boring, sharp edges, no interest.

1:24:53Whereas the curved glass, the whole thing is that it's curved but it's actually made

1:24:57of glass.

1:24:58Apple's not the first one to do this.

1:25:01So the Android people don't write in.

1:25:02Yes, we are aware that many, many Android phones have had curved glass in all sorts

1:25:06of curves in every different direction.

1:25:07This is the first Apple one.

1:25:08Fine.

1:25:09I'm just saying I like it.

1:25:10I liked it when it was on the Android phones.

1:25:11I liked it when it was on other phones.

1:25:12I liked it when it was on Apple's phones.

1:25:14It's because it's glass and it's hard and it's not some squishy little thing.

1:25:17And especially the joint that it makes with the rest of the thing, tight panel gaps.

1:25:24Lexus, the relentless pursuit of perfection.

1:25:26Ball bearings.

1:25:27Accidental neutral.

1:25:28Anyway, all that stuff.

1:25:31I think it reflects well on the device.

1:25:33I can understand some people being annoyed by the antenna lines on the back.

1:25:37Yeah, that was the other thing.

1:25:38And Gray definitely complained about it.

1:25:40I think Virginia did as well.

1:25:42I think the antenna lines are indeed ugly.

1:25:44I think the backs of these phones are a little ugly.

1:25:48I wouldn't say it's as severe as what Gray seemed to think.

1:25:52I do think those antenna bands are indeed ugly and I wish they didn't have them.

1:25:57However, I will also say that I have noticed significantly improved Wi-Fi reception from

1:26:02the 5S.

1:26:04There are a number of areas in and around my house where I used to be like right on

1:26:07the edge and sometimes would drop the connection with Wi-Fi and with every previous phone up

1:26:13up to the 5S and then the 6 that I've had

1:26:16for the last few days has not had that problem.

1:26:18Like in those same areas it has like two arcs

1:26:21of WiFi reception and holds connections just fine

1:26:24and is able to transfer data just fine.

1:26:27So whatever it's worth, the WiFi is definitely

1:26:30better reception in this current design.

1:26:31And whether it's due to something that requires the bands,

1:26:35who knows, I don't like the bands but if that's what

1:26:39it takes to get good WiFi reception on edge areas

1:26:41of my house, I'll take them.

1:26:42Well see, with the bands, they have the same decision.

1:26:46Like first of all, metal is not radio transparent.

1:26:49And they wanna have metal for it.

1:26:50Like they have the plastic one.

1:26:51The 5C I think is great, it looks great,

1:26:53but they obviously wanna have a metal one,

1:26:55but you can't have the antennas,

1:26:56you have to have something, plastic or some other material

1:26:59that the radio waves can get out of.

1:27:00So they decided, we know we have to have a plastic part,

1:27:03we don't wanna make plastic panels top and bottom,

1:27:05we don't wanna make glass panels top and bottom,

1:27:08we don't wanna do all those other things we've done before,

1:27:10we can't shovel it all through a little glass Apple logo.

1:27:12we have to have these plastic parts.

1:27:14What can we do to make them attractive?

1:27:16And what they've done with them is,

1:27:18like the curved glass interfacing with the aluminum,

1:27:21they're showing off their ability

1:27:22to manufacture to tolerances

1:27:24by making the plastic exactly flush

1:27:26with the metal behind it.

1:27:28If those stripes were like slightly indented

1:27:31or you could catch your fingernails on them,

1:27:33or if they ever become that way,

1:27:34like after a month or two months or a year of use,

1:27:37if they start to get all uneven

1:27:38and they expand and contract at different rates

1:27:40or become warped or whatever,

1:27:42that will ruin the effect.

1:27:43But you know, these iPhone 6s that we've all seen

1:27:45that are brand new from the factory,

1:27:47I think them showing off again, like panel gaps,

1:27:49they're like, look, it is like one seamless material.

1:27:51Isn't that amazing?

1:27:52I agree that from a distance looking at it,

1:27:54it's like, why are those ugly stripes all over it?

1:27:55But in the details close up,

1:27:58I appreciate the craftsmanship demonstrated.

1:28:00Like it's kind of like when you do,

1:28:01I forget what it's called, like wooden lays,

1:28:03where you, someone,

1:28:04and we don't have woodworkers in the chat room anyway.

1:28:06Like we do, where you cut out pieces of wood

1:28:09to precisely fit inside next to other pieces of wood

1:28:12and you polish all together

1:28:13so it looks like one continuous piece of wood.

1:28:16That's kind of what they've done.

1:28:17They've got antenna inlays.

1:28:18They're not ornamental, they're fairly straightforward,

1:28:22but I think it's a nice look for a necessary evil.

1:28:27Again, I think the 4S design is still the best one

1:28:30because it took the necessary evil

1:28:31and incorporated it into the design

1:28:33by making the entire back glass, the entire front glass.

1:28:35We all know what the problems with that were,

1:28:36but as a piece of sculpture, the 4S wins.

1:28:39But as something I hold in my hand

1:28:41and probably won't ever see the back of, I like the 6.

1:28:44- Yeah, honestly, I think, you know,

1:28:46I totally agree with some of the concerns

1:28:49that it is indeed harder to reach things on the 6.

1:28:51Like, you know, going from the 4S to the 5,

1:28:54certain things on screen were hard to reach,

1:28:56especially like if you hold it on the bottom,

1:28:57like most of us do,

1:28:58the upper corners became much harder to reach.

1:29:01With the new one, the 4.7 and the 5.5,

1:29:05that it takes it in bigger directions.

1:29:07Even more things are now harder to reach

1:29:10without an awkward regrip or reachover kind of thing.

1:29:13No question that part is worse.

1:29:16However, I think overall,

1:29:20overall the 6 feels way better in the hand,

1:29:23even with the awkward reaching needs.

1:29:26- Now, have you noticed improved battery life?

1:29:29Because, granted these are new devices,

1:29:32and Steven Hackett took me to task on that.

1:29:35and naturally any new battery is gonna feel a little better

1:29:39or feel like it lasts longer than an older battery.

1:29:41But that being said, and I'm making up numbers here,

1:29:45but when I got done with an average workday with my 5S,

1:29:48I would be at something around 30 or 40%.

1:29:51I don't have the battery percentage on my status bars.

1:29:55This is all just visually,

1:29:56but I feel like I'm coming home from an average day at work

1:29:59with 10 or 20% more battery power remaining on my 6

1:30:04than I ever did on my five asks.

1:30:06And I was curious, Marco,

1:30:07if you've seemed to have noticed similar results

1:30:09or if perhaps I'm just crazy.

1:30:11- I guess it's better.

1:30:14I don't have a regular schedule,

1:30:16so every day I treat my phone weirdly differently.

1:30:19Yeah, I don't know.

1:30:21I think it's close enough.

1:30:24You're not talking about twice as long.

1:30:26- No, no, no, no, no.

1:30:27- You're talking about maybe 20% longer.

1:30:29I think it's close enough that it's within the realm

1:30:31of like everyday variances of how it's being used,

1:30:35or the age of the battery being one year newer,

1:30:37things like that.

1:30:38Like I don't think we can draw a big conclusion from that.

1:30:41- Fair enough.

1:30:41That's the biggest one with batteries is

1:30:43when you get a new device,

1:30:44your old one has at least a one year old battery.

1:30:47- Right.

1:30:48- That it's always, if you had just simply gotten

1:30:50a new version of the phone you already had,

1:30:51you'd be like, wow, this battery is better.

1:30:53That's just a fact of life with lithium ion batteries.

1:30:56- It's even more severe in laptops

1:30:57when you only get a new one like every four years.

1:30:59- Yeah, and it's even bigger than the,

1:31:02hey, I just installed a new version of the OS

1:31:04and it feels faster, but it's just because I rebooted,

1:31:05because the battery thing is real measurable difference,

1:31:09even just from a year old battery,

1:31:10use your phone every day.

1:31:11Yes, the new battery is always such a nice big win.

1:31:14I mean, I see it, even we got my son an iPod touch

1:31:17and like, how old is this iPod touch?

1:31:18Not three years old, it's got two years old,

1:31:20whatever it is.

1:31:21When he got a brand new one,

1:31:22his battery is way better than mine.

1:31:24And I should have just given him my old one,

1:31:26but I didn't.

1:31:28- All right, so let's, well any other thoughts

1:31:30about the six, and then I'd like to talk about the six plus?

1:31:33- Well I think something that might bridge the two

1:31:35is software thoughts, like what it's like to use apps

1:31:40that are just bigger.

1:31:41So you know, Casey, you and I have used the six now

1:31:43for about a week or whatever, a little less than a week.

1:31:46It's weird because obviously a lot of apps

1:31:48aren't updated yet, which is unfortunate

1:31:50because they really do look awful when they're not updated.

1:31:53And I really, I hope developers listening to this,

1:31:57If you thought that an update was something

1:31:58that you had to like maybe kinda casually get to

1:32:01and you haven't really,

1:32:02and you haven't even submitted it yet,

1:32:03I know there's a long submission queue,

1:32:05so if you're stuck in the submission queue,

1:32:07this does not apply to you.

1:32:09But if you're a developer who's like,

1:32:10oh well, we'll get to it sometime soon,

1:32:13you should reconsider that position.

1:32:14You should really get on that

1:32:16because non-updated apps really do look awful.

1:32:20And most importantly, they don't work very well

1:32:23if you ever bring up the keyboard

1:32:25because the keyboard is scaled.

1:32:26Also, which means that everything on the keyboard

1:32:29is slightly differently sized than the native keyboards

1:32:32in every other app on the phone.

1:32:34And so you make tons of typos because you like,

1:32:37it's slightly off from what you're used to.

1:32:40So definitely get your apps updated as soon as you can.

1:32:43Anyway, for apps that have been updated,

1:32:46including all the built-in ones

1:32:48and a handful of third-party ones,

1:32:50I think it's kind of like, you know, so on iOS,

1:32:53it's like every window is always maximized

1:32:56or whatever OS X calls zoomed, well it's different.

1:33:00On iOS, it's like every window is always maximized

1:33:03the way maximize means on Windows.

1:33:06Everything's always full screen, edge to edge,

1:33:08unless we get that crazy iPad resizing apps thing,

1:33:10but we'll see about that.

1:33:12And so when you get a bigger screen,

1:33:14you don't have more room to put apps side by side

1:33:17or anything, all the apps just get larger,

1:33:20they get more space.

1:33:21And so some of the apps I think are suffering from

1:33:24not knowing how to use this space very well.

1:33:27It's, you know, like, even looking at something like Mail,

1:33:29like, I even, this isn't even,

1:33:31I'm not even talking about the six plus,

1:33:32even just on the six, I'm having this problem with Mail,

1:33:36where it just kind of looks like

1:33:38they don't know what to do with the space yet.

1:33:40Like, it looks like you've maximized a window

1:33:43on a new, bigger monitor,

1:33:45and everything just spread out more,

1:33:47and it, you know, it doesn't,

1:33:48it isn't proportionally scaled, it's--

1:33:50- Like your accidental, accidental overcast app for iPad.

1:33:54- Yeah, exactly, it's a little less severe than that,

1:33:56but it is that same kind of effect where it's like,

1:34:00this was clearly designed for a differently sized screen

1:34:03and it's just being scaled up to this new one,

1:34:07but it was obviously designed for a smaller screen

1:34:10and it kinda looks ridiculous.

1:34:12To an extent, I'm getting that feeling

1:34:14all over the place with the 6.

1:34:17The 6 Plus, I would imagine, is probably worse.

1:34:20I did end up getting both.

1:34:22My 6 Plus just arrived a few hours ago,

1:34:24so I haven't had a lot of time to spend with it.

1:34:25The reason I got both is for developer purposes.

1:34:28I think we developers have been lucky

1:34:31in all previous years for developing

1:34:33for the iPhone or iPad in that we've never really

1:34:37had to buy extra ones.

1:34:38Forgive me if I gave this rant last week, I forgot,

1:34:40but I at least gave it on Twitter.

1:34:42We've never had to buy extra phones.

1:34:45If you're an Android developer, that sounds ridiculous,

1:34:47'cause Android developers generally have to buy extra phones

1:34:50beyond the ones they would normally get for themselves

1:34:52just because you need more stuff to test on.

1:34:54iOS people, if you just bought a new iPhone

1:34:56every year or two, you were mostly okay.

1:34:58This was the first time I really felt like

1:35:01I had to buy an extra one, because the 6 and 6 Plus

1:35:06are very different from each other,

1:35:08not to mention all previous iPhones.

1:35:10I think if you're a developer, it's very clear,

1:35:13both from just looking at the sales numbers,

1:35:16even though they're combined,

1:35:17looking around, seeing what is selling.

1:35:19I even, I asked the guy in the Apple store today,

1:35:22what roughly is the sales mix between the two.

1:35:26And he said, well, you know, they're getting a lot fewer

1:35:28of the six pluses, so they're selling more sixes,

1:35:31but if they had them both in stock,

1:35:33they'd probably be selling about equally,

1:35:35'cause there's so many people asking for the six plus.

1:35:38So I think this is very clear, like,

1:35:41we're not gonna have one of these being

1:35:43the massive majority winner over the other one.

1:35:47We're gonna see, I think both of these

1:35:49are gonna be major selling devices.

1:35:51And it's important for developers to be able to test on both of them because they're different.

1:35:55The 6 Plus is not just the 6 but bigger.

1:35:58It has different size classes, it displays miniature iPad interfaces and landscape, it

1:36:02has a scaler and it runs at 3x.

1:36:05The entire screen runs differently and the way you hold it is different.

1:36:10The ergonomics are different.

1:36:11Where you should put controls might be different.

1:36:14These are very different devices from each other and from past ones and so I think it's

1:36:18important for developers to have both.

1:36:20So what I did was I got my regular AT&T one

1:36:22for the small one, and the big one I got an unlocked one

1:36:26at full price in the same capacity, same color, Black64,

1:36:31so that I could swap the SIM into it.

1:36:33And so what I'm going to actually do is

1:36:36I'm going to switch to the big one

1:36:38for like a week or two here or there,

1:36:40just so I can get a feel for what it's like to use one

1:36:42so I have some idea of what I should be developing on it.

1:36:45Like where should controls go?

1:36:47How should things work?

1:36:49I think it's important for developers to familiarize

1:36:51ourselves with both of these devices because they're huge.

1:36:54Not in size, well that too, but they're gonna be huge

1:36:57in sales and influence.

1:36:59Anyway, all that being said, I think the 6+ is gonna have

1:37:02this problem even more of having apps just kind of be

1:37:06scaled up and not like in the old, un-updated way,

1:37:09but even after you update your apps, like okay,

1:37:12you make your app run in this bounding rectangle.

1:37:16It's still not really redesigned for it

1:37:18until you do something special for it.

1:37:20And I think it's gonna be a while before developers

1:37:24and Apple with its own apps really know

1:37:27how to use this space well enough.

1:37:29I think, and so in combination with what I said last week

1:37:34where I think in a world where the Apple Watch

1:37:37is commonplace, I think the five plus,

1:37:40or the six plus will make more sense

1:37:43because a bigger phone is harder to take in

1:37:45and out of your pocket or wherever it happens to be stored.

1:37:48If you have a watch to check notifications

1:37:51and to do minor actions on,

1:37:53you don't need to take it out of your pocket as much.

1:37:55So I think next year and in future years,

1:37:58the six plus line or the large size line

1:38:02will be more compelling for more people

1:38:03because it's mostly sitting in your pocket

1:38:06and you're just glancing the watch all day

1:38:07and then you're using it when you have two hands available.

1:38:10This year I think it'll be very successful

1:38:15but a lot of geeks like us won't be switching to it.

1:38:18That being said, it's, again, it's gonna be big.

1:38:22And I think it's gonna take us a year or two

1:38:26to even figure out how to use the space.

1:38:28- I think you're right.

1:38:31We actually saw each other, Marco and I, this past weekend.

1:38:35And I had gotten a few friends together over the weekend,

1:38:39and one of my friends, Phil, actually had gotten his six plus

1:38:44that Friday, this past Friday.

1:38:47And so I got to play with this iPhone 6 Plus for a little while.

1:38:53And my initial impressions about it were, firstly, oh my God, enormous.

1:38:59Secondly, it just felt to me a little bit wrong.

1:39:05Like the 6 still feels like a phone to me.

1:39:09Granted, I just spent a little while earlier telling you I do think it's a little too

1:39:13big, but maybe over time I'll adjust.

1:39:16The 6 Plus is indisputably freaking huge.

1:39:20And huge to the point that I almost, I think,

1:39:25mentally associate it more as a very small iPad

1:39:29than I do a very large iPhone.

1:39:32- Oh yeah, I think if the iPad was the better selling device

1:39:37they might have called this the iPad Nano.

1:39:39- I agree, I agree completely.

1:39:42I did briefly use it in landscape mode

1:39:45in mail where it had the split view going on.

1:39:48And I actually really, really liked that.

1:39:51And I really thought that was really nice

1:39:53to have that extra bit of context

1:39:56as you're going through your email.

1:39:58And so presumably that would apply to many other apps

1:40:01that will eventually support these split views.

1:40:03But overall, it just felt completely wrong to me.

1:40:08And even if I was bumping into battery issues constantly,

1:40:14like Mike Hurley is, I would be hard-pressed to want to carry something that large all

1:40:21the time.

1:40:22To me, I have my phone when I'm on the go, and I have my iPad when I don't need to create

1:40:29a lot of things, but I want something with a little more breathing room, iPad mini I

1:40:35should say, and I have my laptop if I really need to sit down and do work.

1:40:40I don't personally see where a 6 Plus fits in my life,

1:40:45but I mean, apparently a bunch of people do think so.

1:40:49But man, it's just so big.

1:40:51- Yeah, the more I think about the 6 Plus,

1:40:53which I still haven't even seen in person,

1:40:54but the more I think about it in the abstract,

1:40:57the more I relate it to my beloved still,

1:41:01but similarly troubled iPad 3,

1:41:04in that it just seems like a compromised device.

1:41:08the 3x resolution scaled down.

1:41:11I know some people say that you can't tell

1:41:14and it doesn't matter and it looks great and blah, blah, blah

1:41:16but I'm pretty sure I will be able to tell.

1:41:19And even if I can't tell, it's just such an awkward,

1:41:21like what am I gaining out of that?

1:41:23Like 400 DPI fine, but rendering it 3x and scaling down,

1:41:28that's not gaining me anything, right?

1:41:30That is not, it's making the hardware work harder,

1:41:33render at a higher resolution and then taking away,

1:41:37throwing away a lot of that information

1:41:39when it scales it down.

1:41:41I don't know if they just couldn't hit the target,

1:41:44you know, they couldn't get screens at the actual resolution.

1:41:473X bothers me, 'cause I don't care

1:41:50if the screen resolutions are multiples of 16,

1:41:52but I do care that they're evenly divisible.

1:41:54And again, it's like, well, you're supposed to be

1:41:55moving away from pixel perfect design,

1:41:56who cares or whatever, like,

1:41:58why make that compromise if you don't have to?

1:42:01Because they can't do it in 4X, that's why it's 3X.

1:42:03'Cause 4X is too much, they can't even do native 3X,

1:42:05So they do 3x and scale down.

1:42:07Just the whole thing seems like a transition point

1:42:11towards something else.

1:42:12Because we had 1x and we had 2x and it was a clear,

1:42:15like we waited a while to get 2x,

1:42:16when we got it, it was a clean win.

1:42:183x scaled down is not a clean win.

1:42:20Bigger 2x, fine.

1:42:224x, which we're not there yet, fine.

1:42:25But this just seems like a way station

1:42:27in between where we are now and where we might like to be.

1:42:31Or maybe we could just decide that the 2x is enough

1:42:33and there's not any benefit to going to 4 or 3x scale down.

1:42:36But just the Plus as a hardware device,

1:42:40mostly defined by its screen,

1:42:42because it's mostly just one big screen, I don't like it.

1:42:45- I think your opinion might change if you see one.

1:42:49Academically, I get your points about

1:42:52how the scaling is kind of gross, no question.

1:42:55But in person, it doesn't really matter,

1:42:58and the screen just looks really, really good.

1:43:00- You don't see the hairline shimmering when you scroll?

1:43:02single native pixel lines, basically hair lines,

1:43:06scroll with them, you can see them shimmer, I think.

1:43:08- Yeah, I'll check.

1:43:09So far I haven't noticed that.

1:43:11- Now that I've brought it to your attention.

1:43:13- Oh yeah, there it is.

1:43:14Very, you have to be scrolling a table view extremely slowly

1:43:18to see it and looking for it.

1:43:20- I mean, it's not so much, it's really in the idea

1:43:24that this hardware is compromised.

1:43:27Like it's because they couldn't do 4x,

1:43:29but they didn't want to just do 2x that size,

1:43:31So they want because they wanted to get higher DPI.

1:43:33And so this is all, this is the compromise.

1:43:35And I'm only like in the same way that I sit there

1:43:38and just wait and don't buy any new hardware

1:43:39until the hardware comes out that I want, right?

1:43:42- I just often never.

1:43:44- Well, with the iPad,

1:43:45I waited until they had a retina model.

1:43:47And even that I got compromised

1:43:48because it's the very first retina one.

1:43:49And if I cared about like 3D performance or whatever,

1:43:51I would be, which I don't,

1:43:53but even just things like scrolling or whatever,

1:43:55like wait for the thing that you want.

1:43:57And I didn't buy an iPad,

1:43:58despite the fact that I knew I would love one

1:43:59until it went retina.

1:44:00I don't regret that decision.

1:44:02I'm sitting here with this 2008 Mac Pro,

1:44:04not buying a new one until it's just the right thing.

1:44:06And in that sort of mindset, the plus is not the one.

1:44:10Like in terms, you know, I know where they're going,

1:44:13they're not there yet.

1:44:14This is a transitional fossil.

1:44:16It will come and go.

1:44:17We will forget that it ever existed.

1:44:19And the, you know, the correct one that is a better fit

1:44:23between CPU, GPU screen and resolution.

1:44:273X, just, I don't think I'll ever be happy with that.

1:44:30- I don't, well, the 3X itself,

1:44:33like if it was native to the panel,

1:44:35I don't think that would be a problem.

1:44:36But I mean, first of all,

1:44:37I think you're holding it to too high of a standard.

1:44:39You know, like the way--

1:44:40- Oh yeah, the regular people don't care.

1:44:42This is just me personally.

1:44:43No one else has these values, but I totally understand that.

1:44:45- Like if your phone is subsidized by your carrier

1:44:48and you can get a new one every year for,

1:44:50or every two years for like 300 bucks,

1:44:53you don't have to worry about,

1:44:54like you know, your Mac Pro decision is,

1:44:56am I gonna be okay using this computer

1:44:57for the next five years?

1:44:59your phone decision is am I gonna be okay

1:45:01using this computer for the next one to two years?

1:45:02- It's esoteric, like I just have specific demands

1:45:05of the hardware, very little people

1:45:06can't even tell retina versus not retina.

1:45:07This is totally irrelevant.

1:45:09To like, I'm just not, I'm talking about me personally,

1:45:11like when I look at the arc of the hardware,

1:45:13if you are a hardware aficionado,

1:45:15there are certain machines that are just like,

1:45:17that was just the right time, just the right combination

1:45:19of all the parts were in harmony,

1:45:22no part was unnecessarily compromised

1:45:24by being in a transition between an old one and a new one.

1:45:27like the retina screen.

1:45:29Like they didn't do much with the screen.

1:45:31They didn't change the resolution.

1:45:32They didn't change the size until they could go retina.

1:45:34And that was just such a big leap, such a clean win.

1:45:37And they could have done compromises in between

1:45:39by tweaking the resolution and increasing the DPI,

1:45:40but they didn't.

1:45:42This 3X one just smells to me like we couldn't do 4X.

1:45:46We had to do 3X, but we couldn't even get a screen

1:45:51that did that.

1:45:52So we had to do 3X scale down and here's your device.

1:45:55And maybe the only hope this gives me

1:45:57that maybe it means that a plus-size iPod touch actually is in the works because if you're going to give a kid something to play

1:46:03games on or watch video on in the back of the car and you don't want to give them an iPad a

1:46:07Plus-sized iPod touch would be great and maybe it's like well

1:46:10We could have had the super high-end screen on the the iPhone 6 plus if we added another 50 bucks

1:46:15But we knew we were going to use the exact same screen in the plus-sized iPod touch

1:46:19And so we had to go with this crazy compromise, but I don't know I'm just making excuses for them now

1:46:22it does not it it offends me on a

1:46:26tech nerd hardware level, none of this has anything to do

1:46:29with how successful the product will be in the market.

1:46:31- I think also, you're calling this a compromise device,

1:46:36similar to the iPad 3, and I think by that,

1:46:39let me know if this is fair, I think you're saying

1:46:42design compromises had to result in something mediocre.

1:46:46Is that a fair characterization?

1:46:47- Not just mediocre, but like Gruber said,

1:46:49again, this is all academic 'cause I haven't seen it,

1:46:51but he saw a couple of animations that looked like

1:46:53they might have stuttered a little more on the plus.

1:46:55That's something that a consumer could notice,

1:46:57that it is smoother on the 6,

1:46:59but even though this is the more expensive model.

1:47:02- See, I think the compromises on this

1:47:05are a lot less significant and less obvious

1:47:08than what you might be thinking.

1:47:11Like the 3X divide, again, I think you're,

1:47:14I see what you're saying about how it's offending you

1:47:16like on a nerd level.

1:47:17That I get.

1:47:19I think the overall device, looking at it,

1:47:22I'm holding one in my hand now, looking at this device,

1:47:24Like, I think this is,

1:47:27rather than saying it's a compromised device,

1:47:29I would say it's more like the 17 inch PowerBook.

1:47:31Remember that?

1:47:32Or a MacBook Pro?

1:47:33- That was also compromised by the ridiculous keyboard

1:47:35floating in the giant sea of aluminum.

1:47:37(laughing)

1:47:39- Of course you'd have a problem with that.

1:47:40- It's the same keyboard on the 13 inch Mac PowerBook

1:47:45and on the 12 inch PowerBook.

1:47:47- They called it a feature.

1:47:48I think I called it a feature too, but no.

1:47:50- Tim Cook called it a feature because part sharing,

1:47:51but it was just ridiculous.

1:47:53No, it was nice to be consistent with your finger feel.

1:47:55Anyway, consistently, let's standardize

1:47:57on the worst keyboard.

1:47:58(laughing)

1:48:01- Oh, Jon, are you ever happy?

1:48:03- Anyway. (laughing)

1:48:05- Wait, like the 6 Plus does benefit from having,

1:48:07I would assume, exactly the same fit and finish

1:48:09and cool design and curved corners and everything.

1:48:11Like all the things that I said I like about the 6,

1:48:13this has them too, it's just bigger.

1:48:15Like I'm not saying the hardware,

1:48:16it's just the balance of the internals

1:48:19and the screen seems off to me.

1:48:21I think like the 17 inch power book,

1:48:24people are going to love this thing

1:48:26and not, maybe not all people,

1:48:27maybe not even the majority, we'll see.

1:48:29I think the majority, how do they might go for this?

1:48:32Either way, it's--

1:48:34- Regular people don't care about any of these things

1:48:35I just said.

1:48:36This is totally immaterial,

1:48:37I might as well just been babbling.

1:48:38All they care is it's a bigger screen.

1:48:40For them, it's price.

1:48:42Do I want $100 more for the bigger one?

1:48:44As I said, I think the 6 will be the more popular model.

1:48:46It's so hard to tell now because the 6+s

1:48:48are so incredibly supply constrained

1:48:50that they're always sold out everywhere.

1:48:51And that could fool people into thinking

1:48:53that they are the more popular model, but they're not.

1:48:55It's like the gold iPhones.

1:48:57- Sure, yeah.

1:48:57But I think like, you know,

1:49:00if they made a retina 17 inch MacBook Pro today,

1:49:05for my next laptop, I might buy that.

1:49:09Because I'm almost always limited on what I can do

1:49:12on my laptop by the screen space.

1:49:14And yes, it has the scaling modes,

1:49:16but they make things really tiny and it's hard to see.

1:49:18I would almost certainly buy a 17 inch Retina MacBook Pro

1:49:21if one was available.

1:49:23The 17 inch old MacBook Pro and PowerBook,

1:49:27it didn't sell well as far as I know,

1:49:29but it sold because if that was your only computer,

1:49:33and if you only had a laptop and you were a power user,

1:49:36and portability was a little bit less important

1:49:39than screen space and being able to use

1:49:42as much screen space as you could in one thing

1:49:44'cause you had to be very productive

1:49:46on just the laptop screen with no external monitor.

1:49:48If those were your needs, that was a fantastic computer.

1:49:52And those were, granted, edge case needs,

1:49:55but that was a really great solution to it.

1:49:57Now I think there's a parallel to draw between that

1:50:00and your iPhone being your only mobile device

1:50:04if you don't have a tablet,

1:50:06and possibly your primary or only computer.

1:50:09If you don't even have a PC or you don't use one anymore

1:50:11or you hardly ever use one,

1:50:14so many people use their phones as their only

1:50:17or primary computer these days,

1:50:19it does make sense to have a big screen,

1:50:22to basically have as big of a screen as you can tolerate

1:50:24carrying around and using in your hand

1:50:26because so many things on a computer

1:50:29are better on big screens.

1:50:31And so I think from that point of view,

1:50:33this actually isn't a compromised device.

1:50:36It's simply another option for people

1:50:38for whom this is their primary computer.

1:50:39- No, I think it's a compromised implementation

1:50:42A device that everyone knows that there's a demand for which is a big honking phone. I'm saying except that a big honking phone

1:50:48It's two levels of compromise one category is big honking phone

1:50:51You're consciously choosing a happy medium between all the other devices that you're not gonna get cuz you're just gonna have one phone fine

1:50:58Once you'd establish that that's the type of thing we want to make

1:51:00How do you make a really good big honking phone and the answer is not render 3x and scale down to HD

1:51:05With the GPU that can barely handle it. I don't know honestly, I'm

1:51:11I think in the back of my mind,

1:51:13there's like a 40% chance or so

1:51:17that I'm actually, during my trial of this thing,

1:51:19I'm actually gonna like it better

1:51:20and switch to it full-time.

1:51:21Because I'm exactly the kind of user who would like this.

1:51:25- Yeah, I'd upset them.

1:51:26If you like a big phone, you're like,

1:51:27I'm not saying that, again, that category of thing,

1:51:30if it turns out that you want a big phone,

1:51:31this is the only big iPhone, so a really big iPhone,

1:51:35so this is your only choice, and it's fine.

1:51:37It's just not, it just bothers me.

1:51:40What it looks like is something that if they,

1:51:43if they had their choice,

1:51:44they would have done it differently,

1:51:45but couldn't for reasons of parts availability,

1:51:49or, you know, just like something didn't work out,

1:51:52is what it seems like to me.

1:51:53- Yeah, and again, that's fair.

1:51:55I just think in real world use, it doesn't really matter.

1:51:59- No, no, it doesn't.

1:52:00It's just, just bothers me.

1:52:00I mean, my iPad 3 is exactly the same deal.

1:52:03It gets too hot, it's big and it's thick.

1:52:05It's got the 30 pin connector.

1:52:06The GPU can barely handle the screen res.

1:52:08I mean, I was happy with it

1:52:09because I was holding out for as long as I possibly could

1:52:11to get a retina screen.

1:52:12And retina versus non-retina, it was totally worth it.

1:52:14But I also recognize that of all the retina iPads,

1:52:18this one is the bad one, right?

1:52:19This is the one like we can just barely do retina.

1:52:22The four came out so quickly after,

1:52:24four has lightning port, right?

1:52:26- Yeah.

1:52:27- Anyway, that's many, many parallels.

1:52:29And I say this as like, I'm still using my iPad 3

1:52:32and this is part of Apple's curse that like,

1:52:34I've not seen a reason so far.

1:52:36I'm gonna get replace it with an Air eventually too,

1:52:38but I've watched generations of iPads come and go

1:52:40and every time I've said, you know what,

1:52:42my iPad is still pretty darn good.

1:52:43That screen looks good, I use it when I'm on my couch

1:52:46and in my bed and it's just fine

1:52:48and I can go two, three years without getting a new iPad

1:52:51and I bet Apple hates that,

1:52:52but that is a testament to the longevity

1:52:55of even the worst-written iPad they have ever made.

1:52:57It was a compromised device.

1:52:58And I actually kinda like it when it gets warm

1:53:00because my hands are always cold, so maybe that's not it.

1:53:02(laughing)

1:53:03- Well, to me, on a personal level for a minute,

1:53:08I would say, now in retrospect, now having seen

1:53:12both the iPad Air and now big phones,

1:53:16I would say the iPad Mini is kind of a compromised device.

1:53:19- The non-retina one, let's just get rid of that entire one.

1:53:21- Well that one, yeah.

1:53:22I wish, oh god, I hope they stop selling that next month

1:53:24so we can stop supporting A5 chips anytime soon.

1:53:27The iPad Mini doesn't fit in most pockets

1:53:30unless you carry a significantly larger bag or a big jacket.

1:53:35You know, the iPad mini, it's not always with you

1:53:38like a phone.

1:53:39It is also not as spacious and feel as the full-size iPad,

1:53:43even though I know it's the same resolution,

1:53:44but the full-size iPad is just much nicer.

1:53:46It also, the full-size iPad is just a higher-end device.

1:53:49You know, the Retina mini,

1:53:50because it's unsubsidized like all the iPads,

1:53:55it really is a very low-end device.

1:53:57It is similar to the iPod Touch in like the quality

1:54:00of components that it will probably usually end up getting.

1:54:04I think the current one was a fluke

1:54:05in that it had the same A7 as the big one

1:54:07and the same capabilities and the same,

1:54:10I think it even had the same cameras and everything.

1:54:13It was just slightly clocked lower

1:54:15and a lower quality screen.

1:54:17Well, looking at the iPad Air now

1:54:21and having owned now the Retina Mini,

1:54:22I think if I buy another iPad,

1:54:26well of course I'm going to buy another iPad at some point,

1:54:28whatever iPad I buy next,

1:54:30I'm almost certainly, I'm going to get the full sized one.

1:54:32because I think the full-sized iPad is a better iPad.

1:54:37Like, to serve an iPad-like role

1:54:40for the kind of things I would use it for,

1:54:43which is not bringing it around

1:54:45as my portable device anymore,

1:54:47but as a small tablet in the house.

1:54:50Like, a small tablet to be next to my bed

1:54:53or next to the couch, browse the internet on furniture.

1:54:58It's great for that.

1:55:00I think for portable use, the big phones are just gonna

1:55:03eat its lunch because they're just so much better

1:55:06at portable use, they're so much smaller,

1:55:08they are always with you, they have better cameras

1:55:10and they're higher end devices, there's way, way more profit

1:55:14in them so they can afford to have better components,

1:55:16better cameras, like all that stuff.

1:55:17And they're always going to be higher end devices

1:55:19and they're always gonna have cell plans

1:55:21'cause you already have a cell plan,

1:55:22like you don't have to worry about getting the cellular iPad

1:55:24and having a separate plan or pooling it

1:55:25with your existing one, like it's just such a more

1:55:27compelling argument for portable use

1:55:30to have just a little bit bigger phone,

1:55:32and then to have no iPad, and then have the iPad,

1:55:35if you're gonna have an iPad at all,

1:55:37have it be the in-your-house portable casual tablet,

1:55:42in which case the tending size, I think,

1:55:44is better than the Mini.

1:55:45- You know, my brain knows that you're right,

1:55:49but God do I love my Retina iPad Mini,

1:55:53and I, having had a third generation iPad,

1:55:57and that's Aaron's iPad now,

1:56:00I just don't see myself ever wanting

1:56:03to go to a big iPad again.

1:56:05But, you know, to each their own,

1:56:06that's what makes the world go round.

1:56:07- When the 12 inch comes out,

1:56:08the 10 inch one will be the smallest,

1:56:10so that's what you'll get.

1:56:12- Maybe, we'll see.

1:56:13- Can we bend some iPhones now, finally?

1:56:16- No, oh my God, we're over two hours.

1:56:19Are we really gonna keep going?

1:56:20- We'll do it in the after show.

1:56:21Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.

1:56:23Mobilux, Harrys, and Hover, and we will see you next week.

1:56:27(upbeat music)

1:56:30♪ Now the show is over ♪

1:56:32♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

1:56:35♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

1:56:37♪ Accidental ♪

1:56:37♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

1:56:39♪ Accidental ♪

1:56:40♪ John didn't do any research ♪

1:56:42♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

1:56:45♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

1:56:47♪ Accidental ♪

1:56:48♪ It was accidental ♪

1:56:50♪ Accidental ♪

1:56:51♪ And you can find the show notes ♪

1:56:53And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

1:57:01@C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

1:57:05So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

1:57:09Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

1:57:14U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A

1:57:17It's accidental (it's accidental)

1:57:20♪ They didn't mean to ♪

1:57:22♪ Accidental ♪

1:57:24♪ Accidental ♪

1:57:25♪ Tech podcast ♪

1:57:27♪ So long ♪

1:57:29- All right, so you're bending your iPhone already?

1:57:32You haven't even gotten one yet.

1:57:33- No, the bent iPhone's thing,

1:57:35this reminds me so much of our, you know,

1:57:37the quartz screen and testing it

1:57:39and scratching it with glass and stuff like that.

1:57:40And I'm only gonna slam this one video

1:57:43'cause it's the only one I saw,

1:57:44but it was the one featured on time.com

1:57:45that everyone linked to of the guy bending.

1:57:48Did you guys see this?

1:57:49bending his iPhone 6 Plus.

1:57:52Mm-hmm.

1:57:53Well, so it's one part--

1:57:54if you're going to make a video of this,

1:57:56obviously you're sacrificing a piece of hardware.

1:57:58You're like, I'm going to see-- it's kind of like that guy was

1:58:00doing with the screen.

1:58:01I'm going to stab it with a knife.

1:58:02I'm going to do this.

1:58:03It's like a torture test to see what

1:58:06can this device stand up to.

1:58:07If you're going to go through all this trouble

1:58:09and destroy a multi-hundred dollar device,

1:58:12it's like the USB connector.

1:58:16Wouldn't you spend some time, since it's such a big deal,

1:58:18this connector is gonna be using a million devices.

1:58:20This video is gonna cost me hundreds of dollars.

1:58:22Let me think for five minutes about how I can,

1:58:25how much value can I get out of this device,

1:58:27of bending this device?

1:58:29How much value can I get out of

1:58:30stabbing the screen with a knife?

1:58:32And I think you would have to say,

1:58:34like you just bending the thing

1:58:36or submitting it to a stress test,

1:58:38or even if you had like a really complicated,

1:58:40you know, Dr. Drang metal stressing machine,

1:58:43there would be like digital readout

1:58:45showing how much force and where the fulcrum is,

1:58:47and all of a sudden it's like,

1:58:48you have to compare it to something,

1:58:50otherwise we have no idea if it's better or worse

1:58:52than the other ones.

1:58:53You have to bend to 5S, you have to,

1:58:55you can't just do it in isolation.

1:58:57So he takes the phone and he bends it

1:58:58and it's really hard and it bends.

1:58:59It's like, so what does that tell me?

1:59:00You just bent your phone for hundreds of dollars.

1:59:02You didn't tell me, well, I've bent to 5S

1:59:05and it was harder, it was easier.

1:59:06It was like, we assume that maybe it's easier.

1:59:10Again, Dr. Duran can tell us exactly the equations,

1:59:13how much more leverage do you get on a longer phone

1:59:15and every extra millimeter gives you X amount of force

1:59:17because of depending on where you put the fulcrum also.

1:59:20You have to compare it.

1:59:21You have to say stab this screen with a knife,

1:59:23stab the old screen with a knife.

1:59:25One is harder.

1:59:26It's just basics.

1:59:27I'm not asking them to be scientists here,

1:59:29but if you're gonna destroy a phone,

1:59:31the main thing we wanna know is,

1:59:33is this big giant phone more susceptible to bending

1:59:36than the old phones?

1:59:37Don't just assume that because you can bend the new phone,

1:59:39you have therefore imparted that information

1:59:41that like, okay, well, we bent the new phone

1:59:44And the only, the story is about the new phone,

1:59:46therefore the new phone is worse.

1:59:47No, bend the old phone too.

1:59:49Like, it's just, it's so, so incredibly painful.

1:59:53But as for bending it,

1:59:54the only interesting information out of the bending was,

1:59:57one, it looked really hard to bend,

1:59:59and two, it bent, as the guy pointed out in the video,

2:00:02it bent in the weak spot in the side

2:00:04where the volume buttons come through

2:00:05because that's the part, the little, you know,

2:00:07semicircular curve is the most weak

2:00:08because it's got, you know, the,

2:00:10it's got holes in it or whatever.

2:00:13All that said, I completely believe the story

2:00:16that someone had an iPhone 6 Plus

2:00:18in the front pocket of their pants

2:00:20and that they ended up bending it.

2:00:21And the reason I believe that is because

2:00:24cloth is very strong, surprisingly strong,

2:00:27especially to the strength of pulling on it.

2:00:29It's not going to tear apart.

2:00:30That's why we make pants out of cloth.

2:00:32They don't rip apart when you wear them.

2:00:35And a big man's thighs,

2:00:39plus a bunch of really tight-fitting dress pants,

2:00:42plus a phone and a pocket, I can totally see them

2:00:44imparting enough force on a large phone to bend it.

2:00:48But it's still, that doesn't answer any of my questions

2:00:53which are, is this a problem unique to the 6 Plus

2:00:55or would he also have bent any of the past models?

2:00:59Would he also have bent an iPad Mini?

2:01:01Who knows, we don't know.

2:01:02So I feel like this story is still an open question.

2:01:06If the iPad is more susceptible to bending

2:01:10because it is larger and because you get more leverage on it.

2:01:13Maybe a little bit of this responsibility

2:01:18can go into Apple in that if you're making a device

2:01:20slightly larger, people still might try to use it

2:01:22like an old device by putting it in their pocket.

2:01:24But hey, I put my old phone in my pocket.

2:01:26This is a little bit bigger.

2:01:27This fits in my pocket, I'll do that too.

2:01:28Whereas I think no one was ever trying to shove

2:01:31iPad minis into their pockets.

2:01:33And if they did, they would be just as bendy

2:01:35or even more bendy 'cause you get even more leverage on it.

2:01:38Anyway, I don't think this is as big a non-story

2:01:40as everyone else does, but first of all,

2:01:43don't put your devices in your pockets.

2:01:45I think when Tiff was on the show,

2:01:46I couldn't believe that she put it in her pocket,

2:01:48but even she said, "Well, I take it out before I sit down."

2:01:50Don't sit on your vices,

2:01:51don't put it on the front pocket of your pants,

2:01:53because just because I think that it is possible

2:01:55to put it in the front pocket of your pants and bend it,

2:01:57you should still feel that,

2:01:58like you still have feeling in your leg.

2:02:00The amount of force you need to impart

2:02:02on these metal things to bend them is substantial,

2:02:04and when you feel that happening in your front pocket,

2:02:05go, "Oh my God, I get like,

2:02:06I put my tiny little iPod touch in my front pocket.

2:02:09Sometimes when I sit down on a couch,

2:02:11I feel a little bit of tension in the pocket.

2:02:13Oh, I get right back up.

2:02:14Just don't do that.

2:02:15Don't think it's indestructible.

2:02:18- I disagree with your statement

2:02:19that people should not put their devices in their pockets.

2:02:22- Yeah. - But--

2:02:23- The six plus, it's not so much that you don't put

2:02:25in your pocket, but for your back pocket.

2:02:28No one's putting their phone in their back pocket

2:02:31and sitting down on concrete, right?

2:02:34My very limited understanding of these matters is that a lot of women do precisely that because their front pockets

2:02:40Simply aren't large enough to handle even a 5s

2:02:43I mean

2:02:43But you'll crack the screen like just from like plopping your butt down on something

2:02:46There's not enough cushion between the glass screen

2:02:49Especially if you have no case and the thin back pocket of your pants and the concrete you'll end up chipping the glass on

2:02:54The screen well you put you put the screen side towards the butt or the leg. It's screen side in

2:02:58What kind of gadget owner are you?

2:03:00- Well, see, here's the thing with putting the screen side in.

2:03:03If you try to do that in your front pocket

2:03:04and you got that little fake pocket

2:03:05where the iPod Nano goes,

2:03:07there's a little metal thing poking out of that.

2:03:08So if you put the screen in,

2:03:10and when you go into that pocket,

2:03:10you will be putting that metal thing against your screen.

2:03:12- Well, that's why your left pocket is made for devices,

2:03:16because the little change pocket thing

2:03:18is always only on the right side.

2:03:20- Yeah, but that's only for lefties.

2:03:22I agree with Jon.

2:03:22- No, you guys are wrong.

2:03:24- Anyway, putting in your pocket is like,

2:03:26you can have it in your pocket

2:03:27as long as you don't get that feeling like,

2:03:29oh my God, I'm now crushing the thing that's in my pocket.

2:03:31Right, 'cause you know that feeling when you sit down

2:03:33with it in your pocket the wrong way,

2:03:35or it's in your, like when you're standing up, it's fine.

2:03:38When you start putting it under tension,

2:03:39like you're gonna feel that.

2:03:40If you put enough force with your pants pockets

2:03:43on a device to bend it, you will feel that happening.

2:03:45And if you feel it happening, going, oh, it's fine,

2:03:47I'm sure it's indestructible, nothing will happen to it.

2:03:49That's on you, but this gets back to what we just talked

2:03:53about with the watch.

2:03:54If Apple had made the iPhone 6 Plus two millimeters thicker

2:03:59and strengthened it so it was heavier

2:04:01and got better battery life,

2:04:02would people have thought that was a worse device

2:04:05or a better device?

2:04:06- I think a better device, personally,

2:04:09but that's not what Apple wants,

2:04:10as you've said several times.

2:04:11- Well, yeah, exactly.

2:04:12The other angle is, well,

2:04:14why do they keep making it thinner?

2:04:15'Cause you don't get too radically thinner in one big jump.

2:04:18You have to get there by little increments.

2:04:20And if you don't keep getting thinner every year,

2:04:21you're never going to get to the end point

2:04:23and someone else will and you'll be screwed.

2:04:24And so I understand Apple's philosophy behind this.

2:04:28I just think there's room in their product line

2:04:30for one device that doesn't make the same trade-offs.

2:04:32I think overall they still need to keep going thinner

2:04:35because that's making progress.

2:04:38And I think that's moving towards something

2:04:39that is radically better.

2:04:41But along that path there are allowed to be bumps.

2:04:43And if I was gonna make a bump,

2:04:45I would make it with the big honkin' iPhone 6 Plus.

2:04:48- We are moving towards a world,

2:04:49and this is the first year

2:04:50where there's been more than one new iPhone.

2:04:52The 5C I don't think counts.

2:04:54This is the first year where there's been more than one

2:04:56radically new iPhone.

2:04:57And so if there's gonna be,

2:05:00obviously the only new iPhone of the year

2:05:03is not gonna be some big thick battery monster.

2:05:05But there is room in the lineup, as you said,

2:05:07for multiple entries.

2:05:09And if they had, say, a third entry

2:05:11and it was a six plus plus 99

2:05:15where it had an extra battery capacity in the back,

2:05:19that would be fine.

2:05:22That said, we all keep saying, oh yeah, we'd love

2:05:25if they made it a little thicker and had more battery.

2:05:27Battery twice as big or whatever.

2:05:29But I'm not entirely sure that is what we would actually want

2:05:34like we haven't held a device like that.

2:05:36We don't know, batteries are so freaking heavy

2:05:40that we don't know how that would actually feel.

2:05:44Apple has most likely tried this.

2:05:46They have labs, they try lots of things.

2:05:48they've probably tried that, you know,

2:05:51let's see how big we can make the battery

2:05:53and balance the thickness and--

2:05:55- I don't think they're balancing it that way.

2:05:57I think their design goals are based on

2:06:00thinner than last year.

2:06:01As thin or thinner than last year.

2:06:03I think it killed them to do the three

2:06:04with the extra humpback.

2:06:06- No, and that's, I agree, and I think Jason Snow

2:06:08also had a good point on his new show,

2:06:10what is it called, I gotta remember the name

2:06:12of these things. - Upgrade?

2:06:13- Upgrade, yes.

2:06:14On Upgrade episode, I believe episode one,

2:06:16he was talking about how it seems like Apple has

2:06:18a target battery life, and they don't really feel the need

2:06:23to give more battery life than roughly what we have now.

2:06:27- Well, it's a minimum.

2:06:29It has to be as thin as last year or thinner,

2:06:31and it has to get as good battery life or better.

2:06:33And or better and or thinner are always good,

2:06:36but if you can't, you know, if you can't reach those goals,

2:06:39it's like a barrier, you can't be below that.

2:06:41And again, they had to compromise for the first Retina,

2:06:43iPad, make it a little bit thicker than the two,

2:06:46and I bet that was awful for them,

2:06:48but you gotta do what you gotta do.

2:06:50The thickness mostly has to do with battery life,

2:06:52but the weight, what you were getting at, Margo,

2:06:54is the key point, as someone points out in the chat room,

2:06:56the HTC One M8 is two millimeter thicker,

2:06:58and he says that it still bends.

2:07:00That's why I mentioned not just making it thicker

2:07:01to put in more room for the battery,

2:07:02but also being willing to make it heavier.

2:07:04And what do you do with the heavier?

2:07:06You put heavier strengthening materials in there.

2:07:07But the bottom line is all these things are bendable.

2:07:10They're made of aluminum and glass, aluminum bends,

2:07:12it does not spring back like plastic does.

2:07:14Plastic shatters or breaks apart.

2:07:16So like, you have to just not apply enough force

2:07:20on these things to bend them.

2:07:21I can take my iPad, put half on, half off the table,

2:07:23and lean on one end of it and break it.

2:07:25Like, you know, or bend it, or damage it in some way.

2:07:28And that's why I think pockets and the pocketability

2:07:30of this becomes a factor, or at the very least,

2:07:33awareness of what's in your pocket

2:07:35and what forces are being applied to it in your pocket.

2:07:36Just because it can kind of barely fit in your pocket,

2:07:38and then you sit down on concrete,

2:07:40and you feel a bunch of clunks,

2:07:41or you feel that stretching in your pockets.

2:07:44Like, don't ignore that feeling.

2:07:46It's not, they're not made of adamantium or unobtainium

2:07:50or any other made up metal that's indestructible.

2:07:53They can bend and they can break.

2:07:55I mean, we know they can break when they drop them.

2:07:57We just, we know we try to avoid dropping them.

2:07:59We know they can bend when you apply lots of force on them.

2:08:01Don't put them in a pocket that's going to apply

2:08:03a lot of force to it.

2:08:04- Yeah, I think it's important to keep in mind

2:08:07two major factors when, whenever anyone brings up

2:08:11a problem with the new iPhone, which happens every year.

2:08:14Number one is you have to ask yourself,

2:08:17does this happen to every phone?

2:08:19Is this a problem with every cell phone that comes out

2:08:22and therefore it's kind of probably unavoidable

2:08:26or at least somewhat reasonable?

2:08:28Number two, you have to consider that

2:08:30when the new iPhone comes out,

2:08:32if you can show a flaw with it,

2:08:36you will get tons of attention,

2:08:38you will get tons of page views,

2:08:39you will get tons of ad money from those page views.

2:08:43you have a lot to gain by pointing out a major flaw

2:08:46in the new iPhone.

2:08:48And this will happen every year,

2:08:50and people will always try to figure out

2:08:51what that flaw might be.

2:08:53First, it was the antenna thing on the iPhone 4.

2:08:56- The antenna was a much more solid case

2:08:58than bending though, because the antenna was like,

2:09:00you don't need a weird use case.

2:09:01I can just show you that like,

2:09:03and again, it gets with like, well, so that's fine,

2:09:06but show me with other phones,

2:09:07which is essentially what Apple did

2:09:08when they did their video.

2:09:09They didn't just say, hey, here's this,

2:09:11because all the videos were, here's my iPhone,

2:09:13then let me wrap my hands around it in a crazy way

2:09:15and look, it gets no signal.

2:09:16I was like, okay, well then show me

2:09:18either last year's iPhone or previous ones.

2:09:20And some videos eventually did do that, but that's the key.

2:09:23If you can just do something and say, isn't this bad,

2:09:25you have to compare it to something

2:09:27that we either are familiar with or find acceptable,

2:09:30which is why no one complained about bending

2:09:32with every single other iOS device before.

2:09:34Maybe all the previous iOS devices

2:09:37were more bendable than the current range.

2:09:39We don't know 'cause that comparison hasn't been made.

2:09:41all people care about is,

2:09:42well, I can bend this one if I try real hard.

2:09:44Well, try to bend all the other ones

2:09:46or don't bother telling me anything.

2:09:48But bending is a crazy.

2:09:50- Right, find other giant phones,

2:09:51like try to bend the Samsung ones,

2:09:53try to bend the HTC ones.

2:09:55- Yeah, a couple of the people,

2:09:56they built like, they built, someone bent an S4

2:09:59and you can see it sort of comes to parts of the seams

2:10:01'cause it's not just plastic

2:10:02and then eventually the screen cracks

2:10:04'cause the plastic allows more bending

2:10:05than the aluminum does.

2:10:07And once you bend the glass a certain amount, it shatters.

2:10:11You're right that it's all just sensationalism.

2:10:14From being the highest profile,

2:10:18not the most popular in terms of sale,

2:10:19but certainly the most popular in terms of like

2:10:22what people care about, celebrity essentially.

2:10:24The iPhone, the iOS devices are the celebrity devices.

2:10:27Yeah, you're gonna get a lot of interest in any story

2:10:30that shows something bad about them.

2:10:31But as a consumer, there is an actual consumer angle here,

2:10:33and the consumers want to know,

2:10:35is this something I should care about,

2:10:36or is it just one of those things?

2:10:37And the way you do that is by saying,

2:10:39How does it compare to products that I previously owned

2:10:42that I am familiar with?

2:10:43And the best way to do that is to compare it

2:10:45to previous iPhones or previous iPads

2:10:48or something like that to say,

2:10:49is it better, worse, or the same?

2:10:50'Cause that gives consumers actual information.

2:10:52And then they can choose to ignore it or not,

2:10:55not based on the whole idea of like,

2:10:56oh, everyone always complains about Apple stuff

2:10:58and so I should not pay attention to this.

2:10:59Or, oh, that darn Apple, they're always doing bad things

2:11:02so this is terrible.

2:11:03Let me know, is it worse than a 5S,

2:11:05better than a 5S, or the same as a 5S?

2:11:07That gives me information.

2:11:08and I can say, this person did this comprehensive test

2:11:11that compared it against all these other things,

2:11:12and it turns out that the iPhones are no worse

2:11:14or better than any of the other ones,

2:11:15then I know I can ignore the story,

2:11:17but I haven't seen that story yet.

2:11:19I can ignore it 'cause I'm not gonna stick these things

2:11:20in my pocket and sit down with them,

2:11:21but if that's the type of thing that you do,

2:11:23you should be looking for a story that tells you

2:11:24whether this is a concern or not.

2:11:26- So, titles?

2:11:27- I like the load-bearing finger.

2:11:30- That is pretty good, actually.

2:11:32Where is that?

2:11:33- I like your holding your own case

2:11:34better than load-bearing finger,

2:11:35just because I disagree with Casey's whole holding technique.

2:11:38- But I think he's right.

2:11:40- No, it's not.

2:11:41- You know, it's funny to me that both of you

2:11:44are the self-declared official arbiters of everything,

2:11:48of all the things.

2:11:49- You're just realizing this now?

2:11:51- No, I'm not.

2:11:51- No, we're evaluating your holding technique

2:11:54based on the things that you would measure

2:11:57a holding technique on.

2:11:58One of them is comfort, one of them has to be security.

2:12:01Like there's criteria.

2:12:02We're not just arbitrarily saying,

2:12:03because you do it, it's bad.

2:12:05We're trying to the way you evaluate anything what qualities of a of a way that you hold the phone are important when considering which?

2:12:10Way of holding phone is better than another I

2:12:12Don't even know what to say right now. It's not the way you evaluate anything

2:12:16Whether you know it or not you do again to get back to the invisible spreadsheet that should be the title of one of our episodes

2:12:23There is a spreadsheet it may be invisible to you. You may not have control over all the columns and numbers

2:12:28You may not be even aware that they exist, but they do

2:12:30do.

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