0:00:00Stop downloading stuff during the podcast.
0:00:02You're going to mess up your band.
0:00:03No, not only am I downloading, not only am I downloading Songs of Innocence, but I'm
0:00:07also downloading the 1080 keynote as well.
0:00:11Maybe don't do that.
0:00:12Like 6.8 gigs.
0:00:17I already hear your MacBook Pro fan.
0:00:18Do you not hear that?
0:00:21I can hear it.
0:00:22Mine was downloading at 5 megs a second, but my Mac Pro didn't get any louder.
0:00:26- I'll kiss my butt.
0:00:27- Oh, chin with the pickle.
0:00:29(electronic beeping)
0:00:30- This is gonna be a really depressing episode
0:00:32because not only do we have to talk about
0:00:35some of the news from today,
0:00:36but we have to talk about a silly monitor.
0:00:40- Is it silly?
0:00:41- It's silly.
0:00:42- Is that silly?
0:00:43It is that monitor long promised.
0:00:45- This is, so every time we've talked about desktop retina,
0:00:50and every time I've written about desktop retina on my site,
0:00:52the topic always comes up of,
0:00:55sometime in the distant future,
0:00:57what we actually want is two times
0:01:00the current 27-inch resolution,
0:01:03which would be 5120 by 2880.
0:01:05- Do you remember what I called it?
0:01:06I don't like the two times thing.
0:01:08- Well, it's technically four times, but--
0:01:10- Yes, it's the quad 27-inch.
0:01:12That's back when we were talking about,
0:01:13when are we gonna get a Mac Trove,
0:01:14are we gonna get it?
0:01:15I said, I really wanna wait for the quad 27-inch monitor.
0:01:18I'm still waiting 'cause this is from Dell.
0:01:20- Well, yeah, so anyway.
0:01:22So we were saying that this,
0:01:23like I was under the assumption,
0:01:24because there are multiple problems with this.
0:01:26Number one is that's just so many pixels,
0:01:29it's such a density that like,
0:01:32Dell was just able to ship 4K ones
0:01:34at a reasonable price at 24 inches,
0:01:37which is roughly the same density at 24 inches.
0:01:40They were just able to ship those like last year,
0:01:42or the beginning of this year.
0:01:43So that was very, very new.
0:01:46And that's 4K resolution.
0:01:48Now this is like, I think it's like 70% more pixels.
0:01:51It's a massive jump.
0:01:52It's the same, exactly the same for the same reason,
0:01:54the same type of jump as it was to go
0:01:56from 24 inch monitors to 30 inch monitors.
0:01:58It's like, it's a big, big jump in just number of pixels.
0:02:02The second problem is that pushing that many pixels
0:02:07uses more bandwidth at 60 hertz
0:02:09than Thunderbolt 2 can supply.
0:02:11And so the only way to do it is to split it using MST,
0:02:15which is its own kind of mess of half support and bugginess,
0:02:20to split it between two different Thunderbolt buses
0:02:22and monopolize most of the bandwidth of both of them,
0:02:25'cause you need 28 gigabits, I think.
0:02:29Yeah, the max is 20, right?
0:02:31So you need 28.
0:02:32So you basically split it into two halves,
0:02:34left half, right half, make the computer,
0:02:36make the video card think it's two monitors,
0:02:37and then in the OS, fix it to see it as one monitor,
0:02:41basically, that's the gist.
0:02:43Anyway, so you need a heck of a lot of bandwidth
0:02:48do this and special hardware support, special software support. So we were all assuming
0:02:53this would not come out for a very long time. My estimate was two to three more years. Turns
0:02:58out Dell has announced they're shipping one this winter, possibly December-ish and it's
0:03:04only quote "only $2,500" and actually for what that is and for the jump that represents
0:03:11that I believe is a fair price. There are some caveats to this. One of the biggest is
0:03:17We don't know yet whether it runs at 60 hertz.
0:03:20That's a problem.
0:03:22There have been some 4K monitors that will run at 30 hertz,
0:03:25and it's bad.
0:03:27It's like people who use it say it's really rough.
0:03:29You do notice the difference.
0:03:30It doesn't look right, it doesn't feel right,
0:03:32causes eye strain sometimes or whatever.
0:03:34Not good.
0:03:35So you really need it to be 60 hertz.
0:03:37Anyway, so we don't know that, and we don't know,
0:03:40currently for Mac people, nothing in the entire Mac lineup
0:03:45has two Thunderbolt buses except the new Mac Pro.
0:03:49So even if this comes out, assuming it uses
0:03:52two different cables to plug into two different
0:03:54Thunderbolt buses to achieve that high bandwidth,
0:03:56the only computer that it even might be compatible with
0:03:59is the current Mac Pro.
0:04:01And we don't even know if the Mac Pro will have
0:04:03the hardware and software tweaks needed to treat it right.
0:04:05So it's a pretty, there's a huge list of ifs here.
0:04:09And then on top of all of that,
0:04:11we don't know if this monitor's gonna suck.
0:04:13We don't like, it could, as John, you know,
0:04:15it could be like Dell's monitors have spotty quality.
0:04:18Some of them are good, some of them are crappy.
0:04:21The previous ones that used MST, the 24 inch one,
0:04:24the 24 inch 4K one, there were some bugs
0:04:27with the MST implementation.
0:04:28Supposedly they've been fixed,
0:04:30but there were some pretty big bugs when it launched.
0:04:32So it's kind of iffy as to whether this is going to work.
0:04:36To me, what I think gives me promise here
0:04:40is that if Dell can ship one of these,
0:04:42this winter for $2,500.
0:04:45That means Apple could too if they wanted to.
0:04:47Maybe not for that price,
0:04:49maybe they'd put it in an iMac first,
0:04:50I think they probably would honestly.
0:04:52I think what we're very likely to see this fall
0:04:55is a retina iMac with this resolution
0:04:58that is positioned above the current generation of iMacs.
0:05:01So it wouldn't replace them.
0:05:03It would be a new higher end model
0:05:04'cause it would have to be much more expensive,
0:05:05possibly starting at 3,000 would be my guess.
0:05:09So maybe we'll see that,
0:05:10maybe they'll just do 4K and do scaling
0:05:12the way they've been doing on the other devices,
0:05:13I don't know, but this would be amazing.
0:05:17If Apple released this or if Dell's is actually really good
0:05:22in a way that works on any other Mac,
0:05:25or any Mac, this would be truly amazing.
0:05:28And this is the true desktop retina big monitor.
0:05:32I think the only other true retina monitor out there
0:05:36right now is the Dell 24 inch 4K,
0:05:40because that's the one that gives you,
0:05:42it gives you exact 2X resolution of a standard size
0:05:47at a standard density.
0:05:48Like all the other 4K monitors,
0:05:50the 4K resolution is twice 1080p.
0:05:54And so a monitor that is roughly 1080p,
0:05:57which 24-inch monitor classes usually are,
0:06:0124-inch monitor, like old 24-inch LCDs,
0:06:04that is like the right size for 4K to be retina.
0:06:09anything bigger than that and either everything
0:06:11on the screen is too large or you have to like
0:06:14not render it exactly at 2x.
0:06:17This monitor or any monitor with identical specs
0:06:19as this monitor is the only way to get true retina
0:06:22at 27 inches or 30 inches.
0:06:24So that's why this is a big deal
0:06:26and we weren't expecting this for quite some time.
0:06:28- I don't think they're gonna put anything like this
0:06:30in an iMac this year 'cause I think it's still too far.
0:06:33Like I don't think they want that,
0:06:34I don't think that it makes sense for the iMac
0:06:36to stretch that far upmarket.
0:06:38Eventually, sure, you know, when it becomes cheaper,
0:06:41but I mean, I think when they do retina on the iMac,
0:06:45it will not be at this resolution.
0:06:46It'll be something smaller,
0:06:47'cause it just doesn't make sense to me
0:06:49with the way Apple's been treating the iMac line lately.
0:06:52- Do you think, Marco,
0:06:53if there is this hypothetical iMac
0:06:57that has this hypothetical retina display,
0:07:00would you give up your beloved trash can for this?
0:07:03- I would give it a couple of months
0:07:04to see if they released
0:07:06standalone Thunderbolt display version of it.
0:07:08- Or you know, a year or two years or however long it takes.
0:07:11What was the gap between the 27 inch,
0:07:13maybe it wasn't that long, but in various--
0:07:15- I think it was about a year.
0:07:16- In various times in the past,
0:07:17it has seemed like an awful long time
0:07:19between the release of an Apple device with the display
0:07:22and the standalone display.
0:07:23And we're always like, it's like the iPod Classic
0:07:26that we'll talk about.
0:07:27Do they care about individual displays anymore?
0:07:28Are they gonna do that?
0:07:29I mean, they released the new Mac Pro
0:07:31and they really didn't care about monitors.
0:07:33They're like, "Here, buy this thing from Sharp."
0:07:35- Yeah, exactly, and maybe the reason why is because
0:07:39their monitor wasn't ready yet.
0:07:42Maybe they are planning a big update
0:07:43to the Thunderbolt displays, but it just wasn't ready yet,
0:07:45and it wouldn't be ready for six months,
0:07:46they're like, all right, well, here, take this.
0:07:48So I think this fall, obviously they're busy
0:07:52with things that we'll get to, but I think
0:07:55the Mac lineup has not seen a lot of updates,
0:07:59because everyone's waiting on Broadwell.
0:08:02I think it would be nice to do something like this,
0:08:05you know, not to say that that's a reason they would do it,
0:08:08but I don't know.
0:08:10I think this fall is gonna be awfully quiet
0:08:11for the Mac lineup unless they do something like 4K iMacs,
0:08:15which they would call Retina, but yeah.
0:08:17- Well, it'll be nice if they actually update the Mac Pros
0:08:20with the new CPUs, right?
0:08:22So that'll kind of be like for us to test
0:08:24how much do they really care about the macro?
0:08:26'Cause there's no reason they have to upgrade
0:08:27with the new CPUs when they're available, but they could.
0:08:31So this will be a good way to gauge their interest
0:08:33in this product line.
0:08:34Like do they bother updating them?
0:08:36Do they just say, you know what, we're gonna skip this.
0:08:38The current Mac Pros are fine.
0:08:40People are buying them, we'll wait till next year.
0:08:42- Do you wanna talk about a funny tweet that you saw, Jon?
0:08:44- I did, yeah.
0:08:45We talked a lot about sexism and the games industry
0:08:50and stuff in the after show last show.
0:08:52And I saw a couple of interesting things go by
0:08:56in the week since.
0:08:57This one was a tweet that struck me as funny.
0:08:59It is from someone whose name I'm not going to attempt to pronounce, but his Twitter handle is Y-E-Z-Z-E-R, Yezer, I guess.
0:09:06And he has tweeted a picture. People love to do this. They take a screenshot and tweet a picture of it, which doesn't really make that much sense to me.
0:09:14Because, as if a screenshot is proof of anything, and I'm always amazed at people who look at screenshots, like, they'll ask for screenshots as proof.
0:09:22You would think like kids today would be savvy and know that screenshots prove nothing
0:09:27Like you're just like you can can right-click on any web page and make any screenshot you want kids
0:09:33Anyway, that's not the point of this is not a proof thing
0:09:35I he tweeted a picture of someone's tweet who has an egg icon and blacked out the identifying information
0:09:41Because he's not trying to like make fun of this person or get this person harassed or whatever
0:09:44and the text of this tweet says
0:09:48My biggest problem with Anita, meaning Anita Sarkeesian of the Feminist Frequency videos,
0:09:52is that if I used her logic, I could see sexism everywhere. And the commentary added by this tweeter is
0:09:58teetering on the brink of an epiphany.
0:10:01[laughter]
0:10:03I thought this was funny, because it's getting back to like seeing the matrix type thing.
0:10:06That reaction is natural for a lot of people being exposed to this stuff, and they're like,
0:10:12"Geez, it's just like they see this stuff everywhere."
0:10:15like, you know, like a conspiracy theorist, like, sees, you know, that the government is trying to
0:10:18hunt them down everywhere or whatever, and so this person is, you know, offering that opposite
0:10:22saying, kind of, absurd notion of — if I saw things the way this person did, I would see sexism
0:10:28everywhere, and obviously that would be crazy. Like, they're not quite there yet. Anyway,
0:10:33I thought it was funny. And the other thing related to this topic is a couple people suggested
0:10:37the Twitter account "Everyday Sexism" to follow if you just sort of want, like, sort of ambient
0:10:42Exposure to this viewpoint without feeling like you have to engage without without feeling like you're being yelled at or whatever
0:10:48I don't follow the accounts. I don't know what the tone it's like. I just looked at some of the tweets
0:10:51It's like aggregating
0:10:54People things that happen to people during the day are things they think are sexist
0:10:59They will you know
0:11:00Funnel into this account and you can just add it to your Twitter stream and and just let it go by don't feel like you
0:11:04Have to argue with it. Don't feel like you have to agree with all of it
0:11:07Just that's another way to sort of expose yourself. I
0:11:11I don't know.
0:11:12I don't follow the account, so I can't vouch for it, but other people do when they
0:11:14find it's helpful.
0:11:15So I thought I'd throw that out there.
0:11:17And can I just kind of jump on the feedback regarding the last episode just to thank pretty
0:11:24much all of our listeners, all the feedback that I've heard almost exclusively.
0:11:28There's, of course, a couple of bad apples here and there, but almost exclusively all
0:11:32the feedback has been really positive.
0:11:34And I've seen a lot of people talking about following the Host of Isometric Show and starting
0:11:39to listen isometric.
0:11:41And given the subject matter,
0:11:44that could have taken a turn for the worst
0:11:47in terms of listener response.
0:11:48And I am extremely glad and proud
0:11:51that so many people seemed pleased with how it was handled
0:11:54and also seemed to be, enlightened seems a bit dramatic,
0:11:59but I can't think of a better word,
0:12:00so enlightened by the conversation.
0:12:02And so many thanks to all our listeners
0:12:04for sticking that one out.
0:12:07- It was much, much less noisy
0:12:11and contentious follow-up feedback
0:12:15than when we discussed like Android phones.
0:12:18(laughing)
0:12:19If you wanna take sort of take the temperature
0:12:20of our audience, topics that we can discuss
0:12:22without much angry email, sexism.
0:12:26Topics that we can't discuss
0:12:27without a lot of angry email, Android.
0:12:30So there you go.
0:12:31Not saying that's good or bad,
0:12:32that's just, that's the audience we have.
0:12:34And you know, I was pleasantly surprised as well.
0:12:35I thought our listeners, you never know when you touch on a topic, even though it technically
0:12:40is tech related and it's all part of this community or whatever, you never know if you're
0:12:44just going to suddenly draw a gigantic red line down the middle of your audience and
0:12:47half of them are going to send you angry emails.
0:12:49That did not happen.
0:12:50It could just be because they don't care.
0:12:52It doesn't mean everyone agrees with us.
0:12:54Just be like, "Yeah, whatever.
0:12:55We're waiting for you to talk about tech stuff."
0:12:56All right.
0:12:57How about the Megativo?
0:12:59That looks like a Synology, but isn't?
0:13:02Everybody was sending this like, "Oh, look, the sub-tivo finally made a thing for Jon.
0:13:05- Yes, and I think the people who said that
0:13:07don't understand my TiVo needs.
0:13:09(laughing)
0:13:10Have not captured the nuances of it.
0:13:12So this is a product called the TiVo Mega,
0:13:15and it's a rack mount.
0:13:16What does it look like, Marco, for you?
0:13:18- I think it's a minimum, right?
0:13:20If you put three and a half inch drives on their side,
0:13:21I think the smallest you can make it is for you, right?
0:13:23- Yeah, and it's around $5,000.
0:13:26TiVo hasn't priced it.
0:13:27It's got 24 terabytes of storage,
0:13:29and like we said, it's rack mount.
0:13:31So obviously this is not something
0:13:33that you stick under your TV.
0:13:35And hey, look, it's got all the storage.
0:13:36Isn't that great?
0:13:37It's like, you always say you buy the most expensive TiVo.
0:13:40The problem with this device,
0:13:41not that I would ever entertain buying it,
0:13:42but the reason it doesn't fulfill any sort of even like
0:13:45silly fantasy of a TiVo that I might have,
0:13:48is that the part, the sort of working part of this,
0:13:51not the storage, the storage is obviously
0:13:53all these hard drives and there's a lot of them, right?
0:13:55But the working part of it is exactly the same
0:13:56as the TiVo I have now.
0:13:57It doesn't have more tuners.
0:13:58I assume the interface is just as slow or fast,
0:14:01depending on how you want to get it.
0:14:02Like it doesn't have any better features than the TiVo.
0:14:05All it has is like my TiVo with tons more storage
0:14:08and you know, cooling and everything and power supply
0:14:10to power that storage and so on and so forth.
0:14:12I'm not running out of room on my TiVo.
0:14:14My problem is not storage.
0:14:15I always want it to be like having all HD interface,
0:14:17be faster, be more responsive, you know,
0:14:19have the built-in apps be nicer.
0:14:20That's what I want.
0:14:21And this doesn't fulfill any of those things.
0:14:23So it's not really my fantasy TiVo.
0:14:25As for who this TiVo is for,
0:14:26initially when I saw the announcement, I'm like,
0:14:28oh, they're going after, you know,
0:14:30shows like the Daily Show who like record tons of channels of television that have people reviewing them
0:14:34So that's where they can you know
0:14:37Get all that footage from and play it back sort of
0:14:39Institutional DVR. It's not for an individual
0:14:43But it's for like a company to try to capture all these channels and have a bunch of employees reviewing them or whatever
0:14:47But that's not what this is for. There's another company that does that by the way. What's their name?
0:14:51How to link this
0:14:54Snap stream snap stream makes giant rack mount DVR type things for just that purpose
0:14:58This TiVo is apparently for rich people
0:15:00So it's not it's not for
0:15:03Institutions to use because apparently doesn't have according to the Ars Technica article put in the show notes
0:15:07It doesn't have like the the exporting
0:15:10Facilities that the professional devices use to sort of get into the video workflow of broadcast television or whatever
0:15:15It's more like if you are very wealthy and have a crazy entertainment center and have like a separate room or closet where all your television
0:15:21Stuff is this is where you would put that rack, right?
0:15:25So and you just want to record everything and it only has six tuners. There's not so much you can record
0:15:30Maybe you just want to record it and hoard it. I don't know
0:15:32I really don't think this is gonna be a big winner product for them because it's not sort of something they're going to sell television
0:15:38studios and television shows and
0:15:40I don't even not sure how many rich people really want to have a giant rack Mount Tevo
0:15:46But there you go rack Mount Tevo. I disagree
0:15:48I think a written your stereotypical rich person just wants the best darn Tevo that money can buy and when you say well
0:15:55you could record three years of television. I want that.
0:15:58But you can't. Think of the numbers they give. That's SD. Who records SD? They always inflate
0:16:03the number.
0:16:04This is also like, as somebody in the chat said, this is like for the custom installation
0:16:08market. This is for people who have so much money and are building such an expensive home
0:16:12theater setup that they're paying somebody else to design the whole thing for them and
0:16:17install it in their home and build the little server rack closet and everything.
0:16:20Yeah, oh, yeah, these people aren't installing it themselves. But even for that like it's not
0:16:24Even with those people they say these are the features that I want, right?
0:16:27I want this that and the other thing and I don't know if I don't even know if TiVo fits on a list like
0:16:31What are those names of those crazy things that rip they rip blu-ray? I know what you're talking about
0:16:36I forget what I don't think it's legal
0:16:38No, it is that you have to keep the discs in the device. So they have giant jukeboxes
0:16:43Yes, so they rip they rip all your blu-rays
0:16:45But since it's illegal to play them back without the blu-ray in the drive is a giant like jukebox type thing says well now
0:16:51It's legal because all the things are in the drive
0:16:54Anyway, that is like I think it's called kaleidoscope because the chat room is attempting to spell kaleidoscope and spelling it in a bunch
0:17:01Yeah, kaleidoscape
0:17:03So those type of things you sell that as if you're an installer if you're a media center installer you say hey
0:17:09Blu-ray is the best quality movies you can get now for you know that you can buy for yourself
0:17:13Which is true unless I guess you're buying your own like film printer 70 millimeter film prints or something anyway
0:17:18Blu-ray is the best digital copy you can get
0:17:20You'd like to be able to have access to a giant collection of blu-rays on demand whenever you want
0:17:26This device gives you that this TiVo thing. It's like well you could get just the plane
0:17:32You know the regular person TiVo that I have now
0:17:35But you'll run out of room if you don't if you don't watch anything that you record for like three weeks
0:17:40And you record tons of stuff so really you should get this $5,000 thing that won't run out of room
0:17:45That will last like you I mean you if you record this much stuff and never watch it like you're never gonna catch up
0:17:51It's not it's too much storage like you know you don't have you only have six tuners
0:17:55You can't you can't say like my old dream was record every single channel on television
0:17:59You know for a week and that way whenever I want to watch something
0:18:03I don't have to choose what to record you recorded everything all I have to choose is what I want to watch based on a
0:18:07moving week window or two week window or whatever but this can't do that because
0:18:11it's only got six tuners so I don't understand this product. This is such a
0:18:14like super charging a horse problem this is ridiculous anyway which do you think
0:18:20will sell more this or the Amazon Fire phone? If you're a rich person and you
0:18:26say I want a DVR and money is no object and now I'm an installer and I think
0:18:32well money's no object I better give them the best darn DVR they can that I
0:18:35I can buy, they're going to get this ridiculous TiVo that really, to your point, serves no
0:18:39particular purpose other than to make rich people feel like they have the best TiVo in
0:18:43the world.
0:18:44Right, and this, you know, like the kind of installation we're talking about that has,
0:18:48you know, a custom home theater stuff and stuff like this going into it, that might
0:18:51be like a 75-grant installation.
0:18:54So like, you know, the $5,000 for one component is not that outrageous.
0:18:57Oh no, it's funds $5,000 for an HDMI switch and those things.
0:19:01Right.
0:19:02I'm not saying the price is the limiting factor.
0:19:03I'm just thinking like feature wise, I don't know if this is bringing anything to the table
0:19:07that a regular TiVo wouldn't and the installer can can charge $5,000 for a regular TiVo like
0:19:12the price of the thing has no bearing on what the person gets charged for the installation.
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0:23:08again.
0:23:10If you if we got through that ad read, and you're still wondering if you're American,
0:23:13and you're still wondering what the heck people were talking about with the alternate pronunciation,
0:23:17I the best word I can think of, it's a sound alike that I think most Americans will pronounce
0:23:22in the sound-alike way, is a small crappy house, a hovel. Just take that first syllable and put
0:23:28"er" at the end. Hover. Sorry, I can't do it. But anyway, that's amazing.
0:23:35You can't do it because it's not right.
0:23:36The thing that kills me about this whole pronunciation debate is that all the people
0:23:41who wrote us were so incensed in a way that they wouldn't be if we said—like, just think of any
0:23:49other word you can say in a British accent. American and British English sound different.
0:23:53We all know they sound different. There are words they say different than us. And this
0:23:56one was something like, "Oh, you just don't have an accent. You're not saying like..."
0:23:59I don't know. What do you think of a word that sounds different in British English than
0:24:04regular? We all accept all these other words. But this one was like, "You're not just speaking
0:24:08with an American accent. You are saying the word wrong, and you're saying it wrong in
0:24:11a crazy way." Which makes me think that British people haven't seen enough American movies
0:24:15that involved the word hover in the script, because it's not weird at all.
0:24:19And it was so easy to tell.
0:24:20As soon as we said, "What are we saying?
0:24:22We're at everybody else."
0:24:23And everyone who wrote it was, "Oh, by the way, I'm in insert British colony here that's
0:24:26not America."
0:24:27[Laughter]
0:24:28So, all you people need to get together and add this to your list with, like, "lift"
0:24:32and "Lory" and "torch" and all those other things.
0:24:35Like, just add the list of things and everyone will tell each other, "This is one more
0:24:39way that American and British English is different."
0:24:41And there's not a bunch of American people mispronouncing a word.
0:24:44We just speak differently.
0:24:45All right, so we have to go from this to a bunch of genuinely sad news.
0:24:52I'm not trying to be funny anymore.
0:24:54There was some really, really, really unfortunate news today about Macworld.
0:25:02I speak for all three of us in saying that we have a whole bunch of friends that work,
0:25:09I guess, worked at Macworld, and many of them got laid off today.
0:25:16And that's a really awful thing, and I've been so lucky not to have ever been through
0:25:20that.
0:25:21Although, Jon, I think you had said you had, and so maybe you can talk about that in a
0:25:24second.
0:25:25But these are really, really, really, really awesome people.
0:25:28And a couple of them have already been moving in the direction of new things anyway, and
0:25:32so I'm very thankful for that.
0:25:35But it's a really, really terrible thing.
0:25:37And even as someone who never really read all that much Macworld, I'm still disappointed
0:25:44by it because I know what it meant to the community.
0:25:46And it stinks.
0:25:48And I feel real bad for all of our friends.
0:25:50So best wishes to all of them.
0:25:52Yeah, this is probably more significant for old people like me because I grew up reading
0:25:57these paper—before the internet—these paper magazines about the Macintosh, MacUser,
0:26:01in MacWorld Magazine from the beginning, and a lot of the names and faces that are associated
0:26:09with MacWorld either have been there for a long time or came from MacUser, which I also
0:26:13read.
0:26:14MacUser was my old favorite back in the day, mostly because it was probably friendlier
0:26:17to 11- and 12-year-old me or whatever age I was when I was reading that.
0:26:22But Jason Snell came from there, and then he was in charge of MacWorld and then in charge
0:26:26of even more things at the parent company of MacWorld.
0:26:29Yeah, pretty much everybody almost everybody that I knew and almost the entire staff of macro magazine got laid off which sucks
0:26:37I have been through many jobs and many similar situations my usual sort of
0:26:44Way I handle this is when I feel like the company is going down the drain
0:26:48I start looking for something else and I get out before I actually get laid off
0:26:53But that is not you would think oh, that's a better way to do it
0:26:55It's not really like doing it's exactly the same thing because it's basically you're in a situation where you realize your job is
0:27:01Going away, and if it's not you don't know when it's gonna be could be tomorrow could be next week could be next year
0:27:07But you have to do that whole thing where it's like I don't want a new job. I enjoy my job
0:27:11I like the people I work with but now I need to get a new job and
0:27:14It's it's a terrible feeling no matter how it happens, and it's it's probably even worse although
0:27:21This has never happened to me to just come into work one day and say guess what you don't have a job anymore. Sorry
0:27:25And that's got to really suck for the people who were just totally blindsided.
0:27:30I wish the company, the parent company that runs Mac Pro, could have figured out how to make a successful business.
0:27:38From this, it's difficult to make that transition from the old world where they were dominant paper magazines to the new world where paper magazines are not as important.
0:27:47But they had all the pieces, they had all the talent, they had all the people. It wasn't a bunch of old fogies there.
0:27:52Like, it was, they had a complete age range of people who knew what they were doing, who
0:27:57were savvy with all the things.
0:27:58It's just like, the people steering the ship just couldn't figure out how to make it work.
0:28:03And someone tweeted earlier today, like layoffs are basically when someone who makes a lot
0:28:07more money than you is bad at their job and you suffer for it, right?
0:28:10Because it's not these people's job to make the company, you know, figure out how the
0:28:15company is going to make money, like big picture wise.
0:28:16Like, they don't have control of that.
0:28:18Their job is to like, do the best writing and reporting they can, do the best reviews
0:28:21they can or whatever their individual jobs are they could be doing their jobs
0:28:24amazingly well and I think they were it doesn't matter because they don't get
0:28:28make the decisions about what the company does and that in the end is what
0:28:32ended up costing them their jobs that's just the way of the world so I feel
0:28:35terrible for these people and the thing I think about when they're out there in
0:28:38the marketplace now if you're thinking of hiring these people some there is you
0:28:44know we just talked about the you know paper print magazines being sort of a
0:28:48thing of the past and having to make that transition. There are some aspects of that world
0:28:52that are, I think, still valuable and now suddenly become unique. So if you run a website like Ars
0:28:59Technica or, you know, MacRumors or iMore or anything like that, these things came up in the time where
0:29:05part of the excitement of that is you could type whatever you want, hit a button, it went out and
0:29:10to millions of people could read it. And it was much less formal and much more sort of personal
0:29:16and exciting and raw, right?
0:29:20As opposed to like a print magazine process
0:29:22where you write it and it goes through editing,
0:29:24copy editing, and it gets smoothed over and it comes out.
0:29:26I'm not gonna say it's like more professional
0:29:28'cause it makes it sound like the websites
0:29:29aren't professional, they are.
0:29:30It's just a different tone, right?
0:29:32And the people who work or worked for Macworld
0:29:36are the people who know how to work in that environment.
0:29:39And like, for example, if there was some writer
0:29:42working for Macworld and wrote just something crazy
0:29:44and just start filling it with expletives
0:29:46and yelling about things and just being terrible,
0:29:50that wouldn't get out in Macworld.
0:29:53Macworld, I'm not gonna say it was like a family magazine,
0:29:55but that wasn't done in the print world.
0:29:57You didn't just have someone just go off
0:29:59on a crazy unsubstantiated rant
0:30:01and then you wouldn't publish that
0:30:02because paper pages were precious
0:30:03and you wouldn't do that type of thing.
0:30:06And the new world is not like that.
0:30:07And so I'm not saying one is better than the other,
0:30:08but suddenly the people who are used to writing
0:30:10in that environment are now different.
0:30:13Now they are the oddball.
0:30:16Now they are the interesting, unique thing
0:30:18because there are tons of websites out there
0:30:19with sort of a less formal process
0:30:22and more sort of raw, exposed writing.
0:30:26These people know how to write a sort of like,
0:30:28maybe you could say they know how to write
0:30:29a boring sounding or whatever.
0:30:31I just think, you know, I'm gonna say it again,
0:30:33it's not really what I even,
0:30:34the professional is the word that I'm thinking of,
0:30:35but it's not really the right word,
0:30:37but like you read it and you feel like these are adults
0:30:40writing for adults in a mature manner that is considered and
0:30:45and well written and well articulated.
0:30:48And that's something that I think needs to be part of the current sort of stew
0:30:55of tech journalism.
0:30:57And it is part of it.
0:30:58Some some publications skew one way or the other.
0:31:00Like not everything is like, you know, BuzzFeed.
0:31:02And at the other end of the spectrum, I don't know what you would put on there.
0:31:05but the people coming out of Macworld know how to do that.
0:31:10If you want somebody who knows how to do that,
0:31:12these are the people, and I think that skill
0:31:14is much more rare than somebody
0:31:15who knows how to just bang out.
0:31:17I tried the iWatch and it was,
0:31:19I'm still calling it the iWatch,
0:31:20I tried the Apple Watch and it was really cool
0:31:22and it was shiny, and there's a place for that.
0:31:25I'm not saying that's bad.
0:31:26People like to read that, it's exciting,
0:31:28but I feel like we have much more of that now
0:31:30than we have Macworld.
0:31:31Macworld's sort of not entirely going away.
0:31:33The print magazine is going away,
0:31:34the website's gonna be together,
0:31:35but all those people who are writing all those words,
0:31:39I hope they find someplace to write in,
0:31:45to put their skills that they've gained,
0:31:46those hard-earned skills they've gained to use,
0:31:49because I think that type of voice
0:31:50needs to be part of the tech journalism ecosystem.
0:31:54- And the other interesting thing about Macworld,
0:31:59to be completely selfish for a second,
0:32:00was that they actually published something I was a part of,
0:32:02which was extraordinarily exciting.
0:32:05And I mean that genuinely.
0:32:06I mean, I called my mom to say, hey mom, guess what?
0:32:10I'm a published magazine writer, sort of-ish, kinda.
0:32:15But nevertheless, it was extremely cool.
0:32:17And like I said, everyone I've met there
0:32:19is just so phenomenally awesome.
0:32:20And I'm really bummed.
0:32:22I'm bummed for all of them,
0:32:24but I'm also happy because I'm sure,
0:32:26I'm absolutely unequivocally confident
0:32:28that they are all gonna find some new and exciting venture.
0:32:31Someone in the chatroom suggested formal
0:32:33instead of professional.
0:32:34That's a better word because I don't wanna say professional
0:32:36because it makes it sound like the websites
0:32:37aren't professional and they totally are.
0:32:39Like formal or family friendly, I don't know, considered.
0:32:44I mean, I think it's a hybrid because this Macworld crew,
0:32:48like it's a shame this came right after
0:32:50the Apple Watch event and everything.
0:32:52They would descend on an event and they would file
0:32:54tons of stories, well-written, correct,
0:32:58fact-checked, researched, just like in an amazing speed, especially like I was always amazed by how
0:33:04fast everyone can write well there. Like everyone on their staff could not only bang out story after
0:33:09story, they were all good stories and they were all well written. Someone like me who really
0:33:12struggles to get any words out that I am, that I find remotely acceptable, I was always amazed
0:33:17that they could just be like, "Oh, I gotta write this story out, da-ka-da-da-da-da-da-da-da."
0:33:20Half an hour later, it's done. I'm like, I don't even know, I'm just like magic. It's like watching
0:33:23magic happen. Right, because they're professionals. Like, you know, you, you are a professional
0:33:26but you very rarely write,
0:33:29like you write this one big thing a year,
0:33:31whereas they do this every day.
0:33:32Like this is their job.
0:33:34Their job is to write in that way,
0:33:37to that quality, to that standard.
0:33:39And they do that, they did that full time.
0:33:42- And other websites, like every website,
0:33:44like iMore does it, Ars Technica does it,
0:33:46MacRumors does it, they all do it.
0:33:47It's just that like, it just seems so much harder
0:33:49to do it in the way that MacWorld does it.
0:33:51Or again, at the very least, it is now a rarity.
0:33:54What was once like the only way you could write about technology you know every magazine was like that is now a rarity and becoming more
0:34:01Rare so what I'm saying is I just hope that that stays in the mix somewhere
0:34:04You know I want someplace where I can read stuff like that like beside
0:34:07Macworld was in my rotation of things that I would read I have tabs open with
0:34:11Macworld stories right now like for you know things from my os 10 review because they've done the whole bunch of previews
0:34:17And I want to make sure I don't miss anything they covered or I want to get their point of view and things like this
0:34:20Like it's just and what am I gonna do when that's not there? You know it's gonna be disappointing
0:34:24- Yeah, they also, they're leaving behind
0:34:27this very much like a real world impact
0:34:31in this technology world.
0:34:31Like Macworld Magazine is the only magazine
0:34:34I've ever written for that I didn't own.
0:34:37It's the only time I've ever written something
0:34:40that was in print.
0:34:41It's the only time anybody else has ever paid me
0:34:43to write something.
0:34:44I wrote one thing for one issue of Macworld.
0:34:46And that was a huge honor.
0:34:48I also have in the corner of my office
0:34:52a Macworld Eddy trophy for Instapaper
0:34:54from let me see if I can see it. I believe it says 2010. Yeah. So I have a Mac world
0:34:58Eddie. It's when you get a Mac world Eddie, it's like their annual editors choice awards.
0:35:03It is it is this tremendous heavy statue. It's like this giant trophy. It's actually
0:35:08it's got it. It's got to be 15 inches tall. And it can't come in this big box weighs a
0:35:13ton. It's great. It's this nice like physical artifact, this big trophy of something you
0:35:18did in the virtual world that you don't usually get real life impact for, you know, and that's
0:35:23nice and like when I was printed in the magazine, my grandparents went out and bought like 10
0:35:28copies of the magazine. My mom went out and bought copy and like showed all of her friends
0:35:31like yep. It's and like this is like without old publications like Mac world. It's hard
0:35:38to start to impress old people. Yes, I really old people like pair our parents and grandparents.
0:35:43Yes. I mean, it's really it's an end of an era like was it used to be Mac world expos
0:35:47were Apple to announce their stuff paper magazines were the king they had huge staffs. I'm I
0:35:51I remember talking to Jason the first times I met him about,
0:35:54I really love when MacWorld and MacUser used to do those reviews of printers
0:35:57and they would show magnified versions of the serifs on the different letters,
0:36:01the output of laser printers, and you'd have like,
0:36:04it was kind of like DPReview as today for a photographer,
0:36:06where you'd see like an entire page spread of like all the little serifs on a letter T
0:36:10with all the different printers so you could see which printer did the serifs better,
0:36:13and they're like huge, extensive, really detailed reviews,
0:36:16and he said, "But we just don't have the staff for that anymore."
0:36:18Like, I mean, it's the, you know, it's the same everywhere.
0:36:20It's a slow steady decline of paper publications,
0:36:22whether it be newspaper, paper magazines, and everything else.
0:36:25It just seems like under different or better leadership,
0:36:28Macworld had the staff and the skills
0:36:31to make the transition completely
0:36:32into a viable website like all the other tech websites.
0:36:35It's just that it just didn't happen.
0:36:39And I think no matter how you do it, it's a hard business.
0:36:42I mean, I ran a magazine briefly.
0:36:45And even running a small iPad magazine
0:36:50that had no full-time staff,
0:36:52and then eventually one full-time staff,
0:36:54and then had no print edition, had no photographers,
0:36:58no like half of an editor first, then a full editor.
0:37:01I was doing it on such a tiny scale,
0:37:05and it was really hard to make that work,
0:37:07even with almost no overhead, with no history,
0:37:12no old obligations, like nothing like that,
0:37:14and it was impossible for me to make that work myself.
0:37:18I know this, and even just running my own website
0:37:21and seeing other people run their websites,
0:37:23and I know the economics of this are challenging.
0:37:26And it's very easy to be a hobbyist
0:37:30or a part-timer in this field.
0:37:34It is very hard to have a big enough company
0:37:37that you can afford to hire other people full-time
0:37:39and do things properly, do things well,
0:37:43do things with professional journalist standards.
0:37:45It is extremely hard to fund that.
0:37:48And I think you can look around and see how few places
0:37:51are that way and how well they're doing.
0:37:53And you can kind of see that, you know,
0:37:56this was, you know, I don't know the Macworld management.
0:37:58I don't know how they were running things over there.
0:38:01But I would say that under any management,
0:38:04this probably would have still happened.
0:38:06- Yeah, it's just really crummy.
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0:41:11they also give another pair to someone in need
0:41:14through various vision charities.
0:41:16So anyway, go to warbyparker.com/atp.
0:41:19Check out their great selection
0:41:21of premium quality affordable eyewear.
0:41:23Get yourself one of the risk-free home try-on kits for free.
0:41:27Try on up to five pairs of glasses for five days
0:41:29right in your own home.
0:41:30You can see how they look,
0:41:31you can ask your significant other,
0:41:32you can even wear them outside if you want to
0:41:34ask other people. Anyway, thanks a lot warbyparker.com/ATP.
0:41:40I have some bad news for you about your perfect vision, Marco.
0:41:44Look, I don't expect it to last. Right about when your son is entering high school,
0:41:48you'll be able to take advantage of those prescription lenses. Anyway,
0:41:52so there was an Apple event that we almost saw. That we almost saw, and then we saw
0:41:56it in multiple languages all at once. Can we just start by
0:42:00saying that, I'll start by saying that I'm so disappointed that this story that
0:42:04someone, this post that someone wrote about what they think caused Apple's
0:42:07streaming problems, it's just passed around everywhere and like every time I
0:42:11saw it on upside I'm like no not you too. If you saw a story today trying to
0:42:16explain what Apple streaming's woes were, chances are you saw this story whose
0:42:21link I don't even have in the show notes. I believe it's like streaming media
0:42:24blog.com or streaming something blog. Yes it did not appear to have any good
0:42:28information and it looked it just didn't make any sense and everyone who knows
0:42:33anything about websites or web technology all said that and yet it
0:42:37still ran on every single site so I find that disappointing it was talking about
0:42:42like the interactive blog stuff and the JSON things like there were nuggets of
0:42:45truth in there but none like there was no inside information and the
0:42:49speculation didn't make any sense and yet everyone ran it like here's an
0:42:52explanation of why Apple streaming sucked it did not explain it very well
0:42:55well at all. It did not seem to have conclusive inside information and yet it
0:42:59gets spread everywhere. Anyway, let's ignore that for now. I didn't think that was a good
0:43:02article. We don't know why they screwed up. Apple has done streaming many times
0:43:06in the past and not screwed up. This week was not one of those times they
0:43:12screwed up. Although I will say, you know, since I don't trust their streams will
0:43:15ever be good, I had a multi-redundant solution going here with Apple TV,
0:43:20a VPN connection and then my actual home ISP, you know, regularly.
0:43:25And among those three of those, I always had a stream that was working.
0:43:29Now granted, the stream that was working very often had Chinese over the top of it.
0:43:33And then after the Chinese was gone, it had Japanese.
0:43:35But eventually, when we got to the good part, everything was solid.
0:43:40They had serious problems with their AV stuff, but I was happy that all those technical difficulties
0:43:44happened in like the first half an hour, 40 minutes or whatever.
0:43:47when they got to the big announcement,
0:43:48everything was nice and clear.
0:43:49Anyway, let's talk about what they announced
0:43:52because we don't have that much time left.
0:43:54- Can we start at the very beginning with the intro video?
0:43:56- I give a thumbs down to the intro video.
0:43:59- So the problem I have,
0:44:01I watched, I sort of watched the stream when it happened.
0:44:04And then last night in preparation for today,
0:44:06I watched it again and it actually worked this time.
0:44:11A lot of what happened during the presentation
0:44:16made me just kind of cringe and do the thing.
0:44:20And like the beginning intro video,
0:44:22when they first did it, I don't know,
0:44:24like a WWDC or two ago, I was like,
0:44:26"Oh yeah, that's pretty awesome."
0:44:29But I feel like doing this every time
0:44:31is getting a little self-indulgent.
0:44:33And I feel like a lot of the things they did,
0:44:37if this was Samsung that did the exact same thing,
0:44:41the internet would have lost it.
0:44:43- No, you need to watch the Samsung thing
0:44:45to know what you're really talking about.
0:44:47Watch the Samsung, what was it, Galaxy S4 was it?
0:44:50You don't know, I dare you to watch the Samsung,
0:44:55and you'll feel better about this.
0:44:56But anyway, I didn't like this intro,
0:44:58I think it's because of this specific intro video.
0:45:00The intro video with the dots that they showed seven times,
0:45:02I thought that was fantastic.
0:45:03It was short, it was to the point.
0:45:04- Yeah, the first three times it was great.
0:45:06- Yeah, it was short, it's to the point, it's clever,
0:45:09it makes its point in both words and in images.
0:45:13This one was overly long, was showing us a trick
0:45:17that we've all seen from that OK Go video,
0:45:18and OK Go is apparently all pissed about that.
0:45:20By the way, if you haven't seen this video,
0:45:21we're talking about it, it's the very beginning
0:45:23of the show, those things where you look at a room
0:45:26from a certain angle and all the little markings
0:45:27in the floor and wall line up to make it look like text
0:45:30that's sort of floating in front of you.
0:45:32It's a whole bunch of real world physical optical illusions
0:45:35that they bring the camera through.
0:45:37Anyway, it just dragged on and the things it was saying
0:45:41and the little words were just, it wasn't as tight.
0:45:46It was, you know, it just, you know, anyway,
0:45:48I think having intro video fine,
0:45:50especially on an event like this that's so important
0:45:52with the whole Apple Watch being introduced
0:45:53and all this other stuff,
0:45:55I think having intro video was appropriate,
0:45:56this just wasn't a great one.
0:45:58- See, I'm with you, like, I think it was just boring.
0:46:02Like, you know, we have to realize
0:46:04that what we're watching here, this is a marketing event,
0:46:07and we're watching a two-hour long commercial.
0:46:11And when you have great, amazing products being announced
0:46:14and you have great personalities announcing them,
0:46:18it's easy to forget that and see it
0:46:20as this great, exciting event and actually really get into it
0:46:23and get into the fun and the wonder of it.
0:46:26But when you get too far into the pre-produced videos
0:46:31and marketing messages and everything,
0:46:33the illusion starts to fall apart a little bit.
0:46:35And that's why moments like that, I thought,
0:46:38or when they are too video heavy in general in the keynote,
0:46:41or when they're like,
0:46:42here, we're gonna show you three commercials we've made.
0:46:45I don't like the movie showing off the commercials
0:46:48in the keynote, 'cause it helps contribute
0:46:52to breaking that illusion and to reminding us
0:46:54that we're watching a two-hour-long commercial
0:46:56rather than the way we probably like to think of it
0:46:59as an exciting announcement for our industry
0:47:02and the future of our society using these devices.
0:47:04That's how the good ones make us feel.
0:47:08but whenever they go off on too much
0:47:10like commercial video basically and marketing messages,
0:47:14I think this, I think it breaks that a little bit.
0:47:16- I think it really depends on the thing.
0:47:17Sometimes they show us a commercial
0:47:19and especially when it was Steve Jobs,
0:47:20commercials are 30 seconds, they're usually funny,
0:47:24it's not a big deal, it's over quick
0:47:25and he was always so excited to show you
0:47:26whatever commercial he was excited about.
0:47:28The videos where it's some talking head
0:47:31on a white background telling you about what they had to do
0:47:33to design the whatever part of the whatever,
0:47:35those can at least sometimes be interesting and cool
0:47:38and they spend a lot of time on them.
0:47:40I think incorporating one into a keynote
0:47:43is a reasonable thing to do.
0:47:44It's the sort of touchy-feely ones
0:47:49where it's really easy to go off the rails.
0:47:51And I think the touchy-feely intro was a little bit--
0:47:55I don't know.
0:47:56It seemed just too fuzzy and vague.
0:47:59It did not seem as precise as the other little dots
0:48:03and lines video.
0:48:04It seemed just like a bunch of weird platitudes
0:48:07that did not connect in a way the other video did
0:48:11with either things we already believe about Apple
0:48:13or things that we were going to believe
0:48:15after seeing the thing, it just ended up, you know.
0:48:17But anyway, I don't think they'll ever show that one again.
0:48:18I hope they don't, unlike the DOTS one,
0:48:20which they obviously really loved.
0:48:22- Yeah, and the intro video was nowhere near as bad
0:48:26as the infomercial that was in the center
0:48:28of the presentation, but we'll get to that later.
0:48:30- Which one, the watch one?
0:48:31- Here's how you pay with a credit card,
0:48:35and oh my God, it's so hard.
0:48:36- That was actually funny at least.
0:48:38- Oh no, it was not.
0:48:39- I think it was unintentionally funny.
0:48:41- Oh God, this is gonna last so long.
0:48:43All right, so let's talk about the iPhones,
0:48:46which was the first thing they announced.
0:48:49The iPhone 6, my initial impressions,
0:48:516 and 6 Plus, excuse me.
0:48:53My initial impressions, it's bigger, meh.
0:48:55Remind me of this when I eventually get a bigger phone
0:48:58and I tell you it's the best thing ever.
0:49:01I really am not digging the lens protruding
0:49:04on the back of the phone.
0:49:06And I'm surprised that the internet didn't lose their crap
0:49:09about that either.
0:49:10- Some people have, but take it from me
0:49:12as an iPod Touch owner with a protruding lens
0:49:14for many years, it's not as bad as you think it is,
0:49:17it's fine, you'll be okay, trust me.
0:49:18(laughing)
0:49:20- Yeah, I think it's one of those things like,
0:49:22I did see, I'm sorry, I forget who it was
0:49:24and I should credit, but I totally forgot,
0:49:27but I saw there was a series of tweets by somebody
0:49:29that was retweeted a million times and eventually got to me
0:49:31where it was like, you know,
0:49:34the entire world is asking for better battery life.
0:49:37- Yeah, that was Forgotten Towel, I believe.
0:49:40- Everyone is asking for more battery life.
0:49:43Nobody is saying, boy, I really love my iPhone 5,
0:49:46but it's too thick.
0:49:46Everyone is saying, boy, I really love my iPhone 5S,
0:49:49but I wish the battery lasted longer.
0:49:51But anyway, I think, you know, we'll see.
0:49:53I don't think that the battery life
0:49:56for the 5S is that terrible.
0:49:58I like the idea of things getting thinner
0:50:01if you really care, get a giant phone.
0:50:03The most noteworthy thing about the iPhone part
0:50:06is that once again, all the parts leaks were dead on.
0:50:09The only thing that people didn't know
0:50:12were the resolutions, which Gruber had obsessed over
0:50:15and he got one right and one wrong.
0:50:18And the whole Sapphire screen thing,
0:50:20the screen has some kind of coding on it,
0:50:23I forget what word they're using for it.
0:50:24- They said like an ion deposited screen or something, right?
0:50:27- Yeah, it probably is the screen they were testing
0:50:29in all those videos. - Yep.
0:50:30but it's not made of Sapphire or any other.
0:50:33There's Sapphire in it.
0:50:34Apple didn't mention it.
0:50:36So there you go.
0:50:37That was obviously not the thrust of the phones.
0:50:40Otherwise they're exactly what everybody showed
0:50:42in all those different parts leaks.
0:50:44And they have all the things we wanted.
0:50:45The A8 we didn't know much about.
0:50:46We still don't know much about.
0:50:47I assume the phones all have one gig
0:50:49or I would have heard about it by now.
0:50:50Do you guys all know?
0:50:51- That's what I've heard.
0:50:53- I mean, maybe, I don't know.
0:50:54I think, I feel like I would have heard about it.
0:50:56It was gonna be two gig.
0:50:57It looks like an A7 that's tweaked
0:50:59because the speed increase was, what did they say,
0:51:01like 15% or 20%?
0:51:02It's not like when the AA7 came out today,
0:51:05this is twice as fast as the A6.
0:51:06It's not like that kind of leap.
0:51:08The GPU makes a bigger leap,
0:51:09but it's always easier to make a bigger leap with GPU
0:51:11because you just add more execution units.
0:51:14It's 20 nanometer, which is good.
0:51:16That's sort of a, you know, of the same,
0:51:19like, so Intel is going to 14 nanometer with Broadwell
0:51:22if it can ever ship them.
0:51:23So Intel is still ahead,
0:51:25but Intel's previous process was 22 nanometers.
0:51:27So this is kind of like,
0:51:28It's a big leap up from 28.
0:51:30It's not down to 14, but it's significant.
0:51:33So these look like good phones,
0:51:36the camera with the extra optical stabilization
0:51:39and all that other stuff.
0:51:40The protruding, like I said, won't be a big deal,
0:51:42especially with people who use cases,
0:51:43the protruding will actually be a non-issue entirely.
0:51:47- Also, the optical image stabilization
0:51:49is only in the big one.
0:51:50And what I thought was interesting was
0:51:53when they were describing the optical image stabilization
0:51:55and how it worked, they said it uses the M7
0:51:58and the CPU to move the lens around.
0:52:02Now, see, I don't know how optical stabilization
0:52:05works in point-and-shoots,
0:52:07but I do know how it works in SLRs,
0:52:08and in SLRs, optilinear stabilization is like,
0:52:12the lens element itself spins.
0:52:15And, at least this is how Canon's works.
0:52:17And so, it has its own gyroscopic effect
0:52:20so that the movement is instantaneous, and so it's awesome.
0:52:23I can't imagine, if it's shifting the element around,
0:52:27like using software to sense gyroscopic input
0:52:30and then shift the thing around.
0:52:32How is that fast enough?
0:52:33Software is really fast.
0:52:35Computers are really fast.
0:52:37Instructions execute in nanoseconds.
0:52:39And it's probably like the things that are moving it.
0:52:42First of all, it's not moving it much.
0:52:45And second, it can move at those small distances very quickly.
0:52:49So the thing they showed in the video
0:52:51is obviously a crazily exaggerated.
0:52:52Like, they can move up and down.
0:52:55It's more like a barely visible vibration, I would assume.
0:53:00Obviously, it's not going to be as good as optical image
0:53:03stabilization and SLR, but they're
0:53:05doing what they can to try to make it so that if they have
0:53:07to leave the shutter open a little bit longer because it's
0:53:09dark, you don't get as much blur.
0:53:11Don't expect miracles from this.
0:53:12It's still a camera the size of a thimble.
0:53:14Yeah, and the other thing is-- and it's in only the big one.
0:53:17Now, have you guys done the printed out paper things?
0:53:21Of course.
0:53:22No, but I saw you did.
0:53:23I did not.
0:53:24I'm just going to wait.
0:53:25So I printed out the paper,
0:53:26I'm willing to in the show notes of, you know,
0:53:28where you can get these PDFs.
0:53:30I think what's interesting,
0:53:33so before I printed this out,
0:53:35I was saying, you know what,
0:53:37if the big one has a better camera,
0:53:39I'll just get the big one,
0:53:40because having a better camera is important to me.
0:53:42And if it has any other major improvements,
0:53:45I'll get the big one.
0:53:46Then I printed this out, and then I cut them out,
0:53:48and then I actually tried holding the big one
0:53:51and the small one.
0:53:53And oh my God, it is so frickin' big.
0:53:56Like the 5.5, the 6 Plus, wow.
0:54:00Like it is so big that if I hold it
0:54:02the way I usually hold a phone,
0:54:03which is I hold it on my left hand,
0:54:05corner of the phone is resting in my palm,
0:54:09fingers are wrapped around the right side,
0:54:10thumbs on the left side, I can't reach the home button.
0:54:15Like that's how, like I can't,
0:54:16my thumb can't reach the home button.
0:54:18- Oh God, that's a good point.
0:54:19- Like it's crazy.
0:54:20Like, so even even they're like their thing that drops the screen down to reachability.
0:54:25That's what they're using that word.
0:54:27So janky.
0:54:28Yeah.
0:54:29Even that, which is Yeah, that's not a great salute.
0:54:31It I mean, I guess it's better than like, putting it in a corner.
0:54:35I guess it's better than shrinking the hospital corner, but maybe just barely better.
0:54:38Like it's not that much.
0:54:40But people don't use those giant phones that way.
0:54:41I've seen a lot of people using a giant and they don't use them holding them the way you're
0:54:44holding them.
0:54:45They use them either like a sidekick where you're holding it in landscape and using your
0:54:48your thumbs to type or they use it two handed.
0:54:50And sometimes they're using it like the Galaxy Note,
0:54:52sometimes they're using it two handed and with the stylus.
0:54:54Now there's no stylus for this,
0:54:55but you can buy after market ones.
0:54:56In fact, my mother has one of those and she likes using it.
0:54:59It's very strange.
0:55:00But anyway, they're not using it the way you're using it.
0:55:02You're trying to use it like a traditional iPhone
0:55:04with your one hand and it's totally awkward that way.
0:55:08Now the one handed mode thing,
0:55:09that is a very pragmatic solution.
0:55:11It's not great, but it's certainly better than nothing.
0:55:14The worst thing I think it might do is encourage people
0:55:17to think that they can use it that way,
0:55:19because that's not gonna save you.
0:55:20The little double tap home button would slide down,
0:55:22that's not gonna save you from,
0:55:23like you said, you can't even get to the home button
0:55:24if you try to hold it that way.
0:55:26I feel like the people who know they want this phone
0:55:29already are handling giant phones like this,
0:55:31or have had them in the past,
0:55:33or they're gonna use them differently.
0:55:35It's kind of like saying when the iPad came out,
0:55:37I can't even wrap my hand around this thing,
0:55:39my hand's already, you don't hold it that way,
0:55:40you don't use it that way, it's a different form factor.
0:55:43So if this was the only phone, it would be disastrous,
0:55:45but it's not and everyone who's tried the 4.7
0:55:48tells me it's reasonable.
0:55:50I am reserving judgment until I can try one myself,
0:55:52not made of paper.
0:55:54- Oh yeah, I mean obviously this could be different
0:55:56once you get it in your hand,
0:55:57but the paper prototypes make it,
0:56:01it makes it so that I am definitely gonna get the 4.7.
0:56:05And so, and let me tell you why also,
0:56:07like this is why it was also easier for me
0:56:09to make this decision and just like,
0:56:11if I can pre-order it, which actually I can't
0:56:13'cause of stupid upgrade eligibility, anyway,
0:56:15I'm just gonna get the 5.7, the 4.7.
0:56:17I'm not gonna try to try to get both and return one
0:56:20and try to get the 5.5 and try to try it first in the store
0:56:23'cause I know I won't be able to.
0:56:25The reason why is twofold.
0:56:27Number one, it's not like this is the only year
0:56:29we're gonna have this size.
0:56:314.7 is already a huge upgrade, so let me go to that first
0:56:34and then see if that's big enough
0:56:36before I start jumping over another size.
0:56:39Second, the 5.5 is so big and unwieldy
0:56:43and it's so poor for single-handed use,
0:56:46apparently, obviously I can't confirm it yet,
0:56:49that I feel like it will do better
0:56:53in a world where the watch is commonplace.
0:56:56Because the watch will, in many situations
0:57:00in which you'd be taking out your phone
0:57:01and having to use it one-handed,
0:57:01like if you have to take out your phone
0:57:03while you're walking down the street,
0:57:05or like walking the dog, something like that,
0:57:08that's a situation where you'd use your phone
0:57:10with one hand to do something quick.
0:57:12the watch will presumably eliminate a lot of those needs
0:57:16to take the phone out of your pocket
0:57:17for that kind of situation.
0:57:19And so I'm thinking the 5.5 might make more sense
0:57:23to get next year, 'cause the watch isn't even gonna be out,
0:57:26supposedly, until early 2015 or spring,
0:57:29whatever word they used.
0:57:30That probably means April, you know,
0:57:33or maybe later, and that's if it's on time.
0:57:35It might mean June, you know, like we don't know.
0:57:37And then the next iPhones will be out
0:57:39next September probably.
0:57:41And so, you know, this is the kind of thing like,
0:57:45once the watch is commonplace,
0:57:47I think the bigger phone will be more palatable
0:57:50to more people and it might be a better trade off
0:57:52'cause like, I would like a better camera,
0:57:54I would like better battery life,
0:57:55I would like a big screen when I'm using certain things,
0:57:58when I'm reading certain things,
0:57:59when I'm browsing websites,
0:58:00like I would like the bigger screen in some cases.
0:58:04But because I still have to keep taking it out of my pockets,
0:58:06do all sorts of one handed things so often,
0:58:08that's gonna be a problem.
0:58:09Whereas in the future, that might not be the case.
0:58:12- Which one do you think you're gonna get, a 64 or 128?
0:58:15- That's the great thing that made this decision easy.
0:58:16I've been getting 64 for the last few revisions
0:58:19of the device, only because 32 just wasn't
0:58:22quite enough space sometimes, but a 64,
0:58:25I've never filled up a 64 gig device reasonably.
0:58:28So I'm gonna keep getting 64,
0:58:30now it's just 100 bucks cheaper.
0:58:32I think, and John, I'm curious,
0:58:34what do you think of the new capacities in pricing?
0:58:38It didn't predict it.
0:58:39It's a very clever way to succumb to the realities
0:58:44of reduced parts prices over the years.
0:58:47Like Apple has been living in a fantasy world
0:58:49where 1632 and 64 gigs of flash of the required spec
0:58:54is somehow has not changed in price
0:58:56in like the however many years
0:58:58they've been running these capacity.
0:58:59- Seven years or something.
0:59:01- No, because they used to be, anyway,
0:59:03they have, it's just been way too long
0:59:04and they're like, all right, all right, here's a 128,
0:59:07Here's the 64, but the low end model is still 16.
0:59:11It seems punitive.
0:59:11Like I've said, it's like the RAM thing.
0:59:13I think this is a decision made by people
0:59:18who are worried about Apple's margins
0:59:20more than they're worried about Apple's customer experience.
0:59:23Not that I'm saying you can't have a 16
0:59:24or even an eight for people who want it,
0:59:26but if you're only gonna have three models,
0:59:28to continue to sell the 16 and make it the cheapest one
0:59:30is gonna drive a lot of people who are price sensitive
0:59:32into a phone that does not have enough capacity
0:59:35for the things they're gonna do with it.
0:59:36It's not saying that 16 isn't,
0:59:38people are gonna say, "I have a 16, I never fill it."
0:59:40That's fine, that's great.
0:59:41It's just that because it's a low-end model,
0:59:43people are gonna say, either they're gonna say,
0:59:45"I have no idea what a gigabyte is,
0:59:47"I just want the cheapest phone."
0:59:49And they don't realize that they're the type of person
0:59:51who take tons of video, or take a lot of pictures,
0:59:54or wanna put a lot of, they don't know what their usage is.
0:59:56And 16, I can tell you, even moderate usage,
1:00:00if you fill it up with videos you take yourself,
1:00:03and pictures and a couple of movies that you buy
1:00:07and a lot of big apps, especially games,
1:00:09which can be gigantic, you can fill 16 really quickly.
1:00:13And that's a disappointing experience.
1:00:15And there's really, like,
1:00:16there's no price justification for that 16.
1:00:19That 16 could have been a 32, which is twice as much.
1:00:21And it's a big deal because that extra 16 is all storage,
1:00:25whereas the original 16, part of that is by the OS
1:00:27and all the other stuff.
1:00:29So I think there's going to be an ever so slightly larger
1:00:32group of people who are disappointed because they're price sensitive, they can't afford
1:00:37the 32er, don't want to pay it, and they either don't know or have that they're going to fill
1:00:42a 16 or have no choice but to try to fit their stuff in a 16.
1:00:45And that's not a good experience because iOS generally does not behave well when it's out
1:00:48of storage and it makes a bad experience.
1:00:51Maybe the deleting of, you know, the auto deleting of message attachments, unless you
1:00:56say save, will help a little bit in this regard for storage sizes.
1:00:59But it's really disappointing to me, especially like in the in the six, like if they're going
1:01:03to do that on the five or something or one of the other or the five C or whatever, like
1:01:08you can keep that like I understand you have to have that in but for the flagship six line
1:01:13to go 16 64 128 that 16 really sticks in my craw.
1:01:17I do not like it.
1:01:18Yeah, I wonder I wonder if they would mid cycle bump it up.
1:01:21I mean, probably not.
1:01:22They have done things like that in the past, but it's been a while.
1:01:25But yeah, it just it looks like it's screwing you.
1:01:29It doesn't look nice.
1:01:30It looks like a cheap move.
1:01:32- And they're differentiating on,
1:01:34that's what they've chosen to differentiate on.
1:01:36They don't differentiate on RAM, obviously,
1:01:38'cause they don't tell you anything about RAM.
1:01:40And I think it is also disappointing
1:01:41they still only have one gig,
1:01:42but I can kind of excuse the RAM for power requirements.
1:01:46You know, if, again, we get back to the thinness thing,
1:01:48well, if you made the thing a millimeter thicker,
1:01:49you wouldn't have to worry about that, would you, Apple?
1:01:50But you can kind of excuse that,
1:01:54but I mean, it should really have two gigs of this.
1:01:56So it's not as important as it is in the iPad.
1:01:58I really hope the next iPad Air does have two gigs
1:02:01because it's just that, you know,
1:02:02the assets and everything there are just so much bigger
1:02:06in terms of like texture sizes and all this stuff.
1:02:08It's not like there's a dedicated pool
1:02:10of VRAM hanging off the side of this thing.
1:02:13You know, so the RAM situation is more dire
1:02:15on a thing with a giant screen
1:02:17and the power constraints are much bigger on the iPhone.
1:02:20But I mean, how long can we keep this up?
1:02:23How long do we go with one gig?
1:02:26this has got to be the last generation, right?
1:02:28And I hope next, I mean, they're not going to do this
1:02:30'cause it's SOC thing, but like mentioned they went to,
1:02:32okay, and the, you know, the iPhone 6S
1:02:34or whatever the heck they're going to call it,
1:02:36has two gigs of RAM, except for in the low end model,
1:02:38which has 16 gigs of flash.
1:02:39And anyway, they won't do that probably.
1:02:41Yeah, they have to pick some,
1:02:45what can you differentiate?
1:02:46They come in colors, but those will cost the same.
1:02:49They use the storage sizes as their tiering structure
1:02:51for making you pay more money and to help their margins.
1:02:55And now the screen sizes.
1:02:57- Yeah, well the screen size too.
1:02:58The screen size, I don't think they're using
1:02:59the screen size for tiering,
1:03:01'cause a bigger screen just really does cost more.
1:03:03Like, not $100 more, but that's kind of like their increment.
1:03:07You know what I mean?
1:03:08Like it's like, well, you know, that's very good.
1:03:11Especially since like, people will pay more
1:03:14for a larger television.
1:03:15Like they understand you will pay more money
1:03:17because it's bigger and has a bigger screen.
1:03:18That's a thing that people will already accept.
1:03:20Storage sizes is kind of like the thing
1:03:23that they will differentiate on
1:03:24that people don't really understand.
1:03:26Like people don't even know the difference
1:03:26between RAM and flash storage.
1:03:28And they said, this is what we're gonna use as our dial
1:03:30to make you pay more money.
1:03:31- So John, if you were to get an iPhone,
1:03:33which I'm assuming that you have no interest in still,
1:03:37hypothetically, which model would you be getting?
1:03:40- I have a lot of interest
1:03:41if they don't ever update the iPod Touch again.
1:03:44Suddenly my interest becomes very great, doesn't it?
1:03:47Yeah, I would go for a 64, 4.7 inch iPhone 6.
1:03:52- Wow.
1:03:54I have to wait until they get into the store. I'm not gonna pre-order or anything like that
1:03:56I have to wait until they get into the store. I have to try it in my hand
1:03:59See what it's like. I really do like the rounded edges because I never liked how the five design
1:04:03I like how this one looks and it's sort of it's in the black front sort of glamour shots that they make and
1:04:07I like the idea of how I think it's going to feel in my hand because of the rounded edges. So I'm I
1:04:13Like this design. I like this phone. I just don't know if it'll be too big
1:04:16And if they do rev the iPod touch presumably it will be big anyway, so size may not be a factor because
1:04:22you know, like I won't have a choice.
1:04:26Like I can't keep using this old iPod touch.
1:04:28The battery's getting a little wonky.
1:04:30- So wait, so all three of us agree
1:04:32that the phone that we choose would be a 64 gig,
1:04:37well presumably different colors,
1:04:39but 64 gig, 4.7 inch iPhone 6?
1:04:41- No, we'd all get the same color.
1:04:43- Black.
1:04:44- Oh, I thought Marco you had a white one.
1:04:46- Tim has a white one.
1:04:48I was considering white and then I didn't get it.
1:04:50And I actually, I like the new,
1:04:51Like, because the black on the 5 was way too dark, but in the 5S, the new space gray color,
1:04:56it's more like a gunmetal color, that's very nice.
1:04:59I like that a lot.
1:05:00Now, I love the space gray on my 5S.
1:05:04Now, one thing I'd like to quickly talk about is, do we know—is Tiff going to upgrade,
1:05:11and do we know what she's going to get?
1:05:13Because I saw a lot of tweets fly by about her trying on the paper cutouts in different
1:05:18and so on and so forth.
1:05:21I was curious, has she concluded yet?
1:05:24- I don't think she has.
1:05:25We'll have to have her on at some point.
1:05:26Maybe next week she's busy right now,
1:05:27but maybe next week I'll have her on.
1:05:30Or Tiff, if you're listening, please come in and tell us.
1:05:33I would get, 'cause the problem,
1:05:36and this is a problem that especially a lot of women
1:05:38are gonna have, if you've been keeping your phone
1:05:40in your pocket, because women's clothing usually,
1:05:43if it has pockets at all, which is not always given,
1:05:46if it has pockets at all, usually they're smaller.
1:05:48So Tiff always keeps the pockets,
1:05:50Tiff always keeps her phone in her jeans.
1:05:52And the front pocket is almost never big enough.
1:05:54So usually just keeps it in the back pocket.
1:05:57And it's like, we'll have to have her tell you all
1:06:00about this, but basically it really is not a good fit.
1:06:05The 5.5 doesn't even come close to fitting.
1:06:07And even the 4.7 no longer fits.
1:06:10Like it either, it will either stick out visibly at the top
1:06:14or like it, or you gotta like put it in like only one pocket
1:06:18in such a way that it makes a giant long rectangle
1:06:21put longways, it's weird.
1:06:23So I have a feeling this is gonna be an issue,
1:06:27especially for women.
1:06:28I think we're gonna have to see how the market shakes out.
1:06:32We're gonna have to see how these sell,
1:06:34and Apple's gonna have to see.
1:06:35I'm sure they're gonna be looking at their stores
1:06:37to see how many people who would have otherwise bought
1:06:41the bigger one go with the iPhone 5S instead
1:06:44because it's smaller.
1:06:46You know I hope they're watching that I'm sure they will because I'm guessing there's gonna be a lot of people who actually prefer the smaller size
1:06:54especially women
1:06:56You mean you mean like the smaller is in the 5s size or the 4 point mmm
1:07:00Yeah, I think they're gonna sell a ton of the 4.7 inch sixes
1:07:04Like that will be the best-selling model kind of like last gen the the 5s was the best-selling modern way over the 5c
1:07:11And people seem surprised by that my prediction for for this set of models is that the?
1:07:16the 4.7 and 6 will be the best selling model.
1:07:20- Really quickly, a couple more thoughts on the iPhone Plus.
1:07:23Firstly, do you remember the title
1:07:25of the very, very, very first episode of ATP?
1:07:28- Did we call it iPhone Plus?
1:07:29- We sure did.
1:07:30- Yeah, it was the iPhone math, remember?
1:07:32- That's right. (laughs)
1:07:34- And what we said, there was a likely mistranslation
1:07:36of iPhone Plus.
1:07:37Even the name leaked on this thing.
1:07:38I can't keep secrets anymore.
1:07:40(both laughing)
1:07:42- That was like two years ago.
1:07:43- I am pretty proud of us for that.
1:07:45This was February 7th of 2013.
1:07:48- But it's not the iPhone Plus, it's the iPhone 6 Plus.
1:07:50It's a bit technical.
1:07:51- Oh, whatever. - We didn't quite get it.
1:07:53Anyway. - Anyway.
1:07:54- Names are names.
1:07:56- And then what do you guys think about,
1:07:58and I'm gonna start with Marco,
1:07:59when you go to landscape on the iPhone 6 Plus,
1:08:04you get a split view controller
1:08:06if the app that you're using supports that.
1:08:09How does that make you feel to have an iPad
1:08:12that isn't an iPad?
1:08:14- I think it's smart.
1:08:15I mean, the iPhone, first of all,
1:08:18designing an app for iPhone landscape views
1:08:21has always been challenging,
1:08:22especially if you have to support text input,
1:08:24because the iPhone landscape view with the keyboard up,
1:08:27you basically have no space.
1:08:28And so, it's always been tricky to design that.
1:08:33The iPhone 6 Plus has so much space in both dimensions,
1:08:37but especially in that height dimension,
1:08:39it has so much space that if you saw
1:08:42any other normal interface scaled to that
1:08:45without the split view style.
1:08:47It's gonna look ridiculously weirdly wide and short.
1:08:50And so I think what that's doing is just like,
1:08:54it isn't necessarily like,
1:08:55oh, we're gonna bring the iPad to this.
1:08:57I think it's more like we have to solve
1:08:59this really weird interface situation here.
1:09:02What tools do we have that we can do that with?
1:09:04And so that's what I think they're doing there with that.
1:09:07First of all, it is a differentiator.
1:09:11it is a way to get people to buy the bigger one,
1:09:12to say like, look, the apps are a little bit better
1:09:14in these ways, you know, so that helps.
1:09:17But I think ultimately it's just about like,
1:09:18how do we make apps not look weird on this?
1:09:21- Yeah, all those APIs in WWDC talking about
1:09:24the adaptive sizing stream, we all knew,
1:09:25I mean again, talk about Apple leaked this itself
1:09:28essentially, like we all knew it was coming,
1:09:29they told us in a million sessions that we're gonna be,
1:09:32you know, they had, if you just watch those,
1:09:34if they're free to watch, watch those WWDC sessions,
1:09:37it's obvious what they're talking about,
1:09:38and no one was surprised that,
1:09:41"Oh, hey, look, when you rotated a different thing,
1:09:43it's suddenly this panel."
1:09:44Like, they told you how to do that.
1:09:46And he was like, "This seems strange.
1:09:48When would this come in handy?"
1:09:49Hmm, you know, it was,
1:09:50they were in an awkward situation
1:09:52where they had to tell developers
1:09:53how to adjust their layouts
1:09:55or what we knew were going to be differently sized phones.
1:09:57And one of the features was, you know,
1:09:59some elements might not even appear
1:10:00if the width is compact
1:10:02or whatever the size class thing is, right?
1:10:03So, timing-wise, it must've been weird for them to do that,
1:10:07But every developer knew it was coming.
1:10:09And I think users don't care about that stuff
1:10:14as much as we think they do in terms of what it requires.
1:10:16So maybe it was like, oh, if you get the big phone,
1:10:19you get this better stuff.
1:10:19And they don't even know if it's the same app,
1:10:21as far as they're concerned.
1:10:22Or they might think, like Casey just kind of said,
1:10:23like, oh, this is an iPad.
1:10:25No, it's not an iPad app.
1:10:26They don't need to know anything about adaptive layouts.
1:10:28They don't need to know anything about size classes.
1:10:29They just know you buy this product,
1:10:31your experience is different.
1:10:32Especially with the wide keyboard,
1:10:34with the weird larger keys on the side for doing doodles
1:10:37and the larger emoji key
1:10:39and whatever other things they had there.
1:10:42The fact that those buttons are there
1:10:43is gonna be a selling point.
1:10:44Like, oh, well this one has the keyboard
1:10:45with the little buttons.
1:10:47I don't know, I feel like the people
1:10:48who want this big phone already know they want it
1:10:50and this is all just gonna be icing for them.
1:10:52And Apple is wise to continue to evolve its UI toolkit,
1:10:57for lack of a better word,
1:10:59to handle differently sized screens.
1:11:01They crept on it bit by bit
1:11:03and now they're essentially entering a world where we can make flat rectangular screens
1:11:07with rounded corners of any size and your app should run on them.
1:11:11The only thing left is the weird gap between iPad and iPhone apps.
1:11:17And I wonder if eventually they'll get to the point, because if you look at their products
1:11:20now if you line them up, it's a series of little rectangles with screens on them that
1:11:23scale nicely from really small to really big.
1:11:26It's a pretty smooth stair step.
1:11:27And yet you have to draw this red line.
1:11:29well, this is an iPad app, and these are iPhone apps.
1:11:32And that red line will start to get thinner
1:11:34over the next few years, because eventually it'll be like, look,
1:11:37you're just making iOS apps, and they adapt themselves
1:11:40to whatever size screen they're on,
1:11:42and there's no artificial distinction between an iPad
1:11:44and an iPhone app anymore.
1:11:45We're not there yet, but check back in three years.
1:11:49Yeah, and I think the message to W3C
1:11:52couldn't have been more clear on that front, too.
1:11:55Your apps should stop caring about whether they're
1:11:58running on an iPad or an iPhone.
1:12:00And you should instead just read these collections
1:12:03of traits to know, oh, well, this is a small, horizontal,
1:12:07but big vertical screen, or something like that.
1:12:09And to basically bring responsive design to apps.
1:12:14And Apple has been absolutely clear,
1:12:18that is the way to go now and in the future.
1:12:21And the implication, of course, is
1:12:23because we're going to have this big variety of hardware.
1:12:25And now we've seen the beginning half of that.
1:12:28I think we're going to continue to see that when
1:12:30the new iPads are announced.
1:12:31And if that resizable app thing becomes a part of the iPad OS,
1:12:37it'll use the same kind of system.
1:12:38And that's just as important then.
1:12:39Yeah, the multitasking thing where you split the screen
1:12:42and have one thing on one side.
1:12:43Yeah, if that ever ships, it's going
1:12:45to be an even bigger draw for this sort of thing.
1:12:47And I think for developers, the message
1:12:50could not be more clear.
1:12:51Build universal apps and use this kind of responsive design.
1:12:55they couldn't be more clear about that.
1:12:57And if your business model depends on having separate
1:12:59iPhone and iPad apps, you should probably figure out
1:13:01a way around that really soon.
1:13:03- Yeah, even now, just the iPhone 6 Plus
1:13:08next to an iPad mini, try explaining to a regular person
1:13:10that, well, this is an iPad app and it only works
1:13:13on this rectangle, and it won't work at all
1:13:14in that rectangle.
1:13:15It'd be like, what?
1:13:16These are practically the same thing.
1:13:18It's like, oh, no, that's an iPad and this is an iPhone.
1:13:19They'd be like, because it makes phone calls,
1:13:22it can't run, I don't understand.
1:13:24Yeah, that's you know, the direction is clear that that confusion will be cleared up
1:13:28Maybe clean clear up sooner than we think for all we know the new ipads come out and apple says oh and by the way
1:13:33Uh, you can't ever upload an ipad only app anymore. All your apps have to be that I think it's still a ways off
1:13:39But like apple could do that if they were in a hurry. I don't think they're in a hurry, but
1:13:42It's at this point
1:13:44It's silly with that with the iphone 6 plus and the ipad mini both in apple's line
1:13:47The division between them makes no sense. Yeah
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1:16:02- So there's a way to pay for things with your phone.
1:16:10Yeah, this is gonna be really interesting, I think.
1:16:13Like this is, so, you know, first of all,
1:16:17yes, we all know that NFC is not new,
1:16:20that Apple is not the first one to do this.
1:16:22They won't be the last ones to do this.
1:16:24We know Android was there first.
1:16:26We know probably things were there before, Android even.
1:16:28We know NFC is very popular in some parts of the world.
1:16:31We know the US payment system is horrible and outdated.
1:16:34And yes, we still even use checks sometimes,
1:16:37which is horrendous.
1:16:38So all that aside, I think this is a great move.
1:16:43I hope it gets a lot of adoption.
1:16:46And I think if it does, I think this might actually
1:16:50be more important than the watch long term for Apple.
1:16:53I think they're gonna end up making some money from it,
1:16:57no question, you know, because they're getting a surcharge
1:17:00off of each transaction.
1:17:01But it's not very much money based on most of the reports
1:17:03we've seen, it's a very, very small surcharge.
1:17:06they make it up in volume, or want to anyway.
1:17:08- And they, yeah, and there will be,
1:17:10if this actually works, there will be a lot of volumes.
1:17:13- Well, so that's the question,
1:17:14what makes anyone think this has any more chance of working
1:17:17and becoming widespread than any of the past efforts,
1:17:19or Passbook for that matter?
1:17:21- Well, I think the biggest reason,
1:17:24first of all, you know, Passbook was a tough sell,
1:17:26because Passbook didn't really offer
1:17:29either side massive benefits.
1:17:31It's like, it wasn't that easier, that much easier,
1:17:35It didn't, like it was a pain to implement slightly,
1:17:39'cause you had to do something instead of nothing.
1:17:41So you had to do special support to implement it
1:17:43on the service side.
1:17:45And then on the usual side, there's this weird app
1:17:47that they go in and it kinda, you gotta find the link
1:17:51somewhere in your confirmation email that says
1:17:52download to Passbook if they even had that,
1:17:54which they usually didn't.
1:17:55And I feel like the benefits there were not big enough
1:17:59for all the work on both sides to be worth it
1:18:02for most people.
1:18:03Whereas for this, I feel like if this actually works
1:18:07the way it's advertised, and granted,
1:18:09the video was hilarious in how,
1:18:11like the doing it wrong side of the video, how that was--
1:18:14- So bad, so bad. - It was comical.
1:18:17- No, it was not comical, it was embarrassing how bad it was.
1:18:21- I like when they ask for, she asks for ID
1:18:23and the swipe doesn't work on the first time,
1:18:24two things that almost never happen.
1:18:26- It was so uncomfortable.
1:18:29- That was an example of Apple,
1:18:30Like what you want is it Apple to be fair?
1:18:33Like when Steve Jobs put up the picture
1:18:35of what phones look like with all the different keyboards,
1:18:37that was fair.
1:18:38Those were good publicity shots
1:18:40of those actual popular phones.
1:18:41It was not finding the ugliest phones in the world
1:18:43and putting them up to show how nice yours looks next to it.
1:18:45It was like, these are the popular phones now.
1:18:48And then we're gonna show you the iPhone
1:18:49and it's different than them.
1:18:50This was not a fair comparison.
1:18:52This was like, this does not accurately represent
1:18:55the inconvenience of using your credit card in America.
1:18:58- Right, and that's the thing
1:19:00is that this is one of those parts of the keynote
1:19:03where I was just sitting there
1:19:04and I wanted to crawl into a hole
1:19:06because it was so ridiculous.
1:19:08I was like kind of embarrassed just watching it.
1:19:11And I'm probably being a bit dramatic,
1:19:13but the thing of it is is that Apple keynotes or events,
1:19:16whatever we're calling this,
1:19:17are usually so spot on and so good.
1:19:21And this was just awkward.
1:19:25I don't know.
1:19:25Most of it was great,
1:19:26but this part was just really awkward.
1:19:28So for the success rate of this thing over Passbook,
1:19:31I ask that mostly just to throw that out there.
1:19:34I think this will be more successful than Passbook.
1:19:37And I think the main reason is,
1:19:39this is all again, totally US centric.
1:19:41And like Marco said, we all know about chip cards.
1:19:43We all know how backwards we are.
1:19:44Yes, yes, yes, we live in America.
1:19:46We care about our backwardness getting fixed,
1:19:48not how awesome it is in your amazing country.
1:19:50Anyway.
1:19:51(laughing)
1:19:53So if we don't speak your language,
1:19:54we'd move there if we did.
1:19:55Anyway.
1:19:56(laughing)
1:19:57The reason this is gonna work is because of the massive concentration of power in the
1:20:06US payment industry to these few big banks and few big credit card companies, most of
1:20:11which Apple seems to have cut a deal with.
1:20:13So right there, you've got just huge...
1:20:15It's kind of like when Apple did a deal for iTunes, they just got whatever is the big
1:20:18five record labels or whatever they were.
1:20:20That's all they needed to do deals with because they covered most of the music people cared
1:20:25about.
1:20:26Apple is doing deals with MasterCard, Visa,
1:20:29Bank of America.
1:20:30They're just covering a huge portion of the entire market
1:20:33just by doing deals with these gigantic companies that
1:20:36have what probably should be illegal levels of power
1:20:40and concentration of wealth.
1:20:42And anyway, that makes it--
1:20:43On the retail side, too, there's a similar--
1:20:46the US is so much based on the big chain stores
1:20:50that all you need are a handful of the big chains
1:20:52to have a massive footprint of the transactions that
1:20:55happen in the US every day, and then you can start getting
1:20:58more support from the smaller people just because,
1:21:00well, we have all these people using this,
1:21:02you'll benefit from this, blah, blah, blah, you know?
1:21:03- Yeah, and that's what they need to make it work,
1:21:05is you need to like, it's not the thing in the phone,
1:21:08it's not the software, it's not NFC,
1:21:10what it is is that stupid ugly reader thing.
1:21:12That is the most important part of this product
1:21:14as a solution for people, is that stupid ugly reader thing.
1:21:17That stupid little NFC reader and the way it's hooked up,
1:21:21and that has to be in millions and millions of places.
1:21:25That is the hard part of this project.
1:21:27Like you said, people putting NFC in phones forever.
1:21:29Like it's so easy to do all those other parts.
1:21:31The hard part is to cut the deal with all the people.
1:21:33So they say, use our payment thingy,
1:21:35accept our payment tokens,
1:21:38put these things in all of your stores.
1:21:41That is the hard part.
1:21:42That's the biggest, kind of like the Amazon level
1:21:45type of thing where they're like,
1:21:46or even Google, like we're gonna scan every book
1:21:48in the world, and we're gonna make self-driving cars
1:21:49or whatever.
1:21:50This is one of the first things that I've seen
1:21:51Apple sort of dip its toe into of saying,
1:21:54we're going to try to do this big thing.
1:21:56'Cause it doesn't work unless those little scanners
1:21:58are all over the place hooked up to Apple service.
1:22:00And so them cutting the deal
1:22:02with the big credit card companies
1:22:03so that you'll be able to make something
1:22:05that you can pay with and it will connect
1:22:07to your bank or your credit card or whatever.
1:22:08That's one half.
1:22:09But then the other half is getting these little scanners
1:22:12in a bunch of stores hooked up to those things.
1:22:15And I think the amount of stuff
1:22:16that they've announced in this deal
1:22:20is probably just barely enough.
1:22:22maybe, maybe barely enough to get them over the hump.
1:22:25'Cause you need some kind of critical mass
1:22:26if this doesn't want to become like Passbook.
1:22:28Even though Passbook's like,
1:22:29"Oh, didn't they get all the airlines?"
1:22:30People don't fly every day,
1:22:32and even if they do, the airlines were kind of spotty
1:22:34in the beginning about whether that was there,
1:22:36and people weren't, you know, like,
1:22:37is this really, you really need to get some critical mass
1:22:40before, until this, you know,
1:22:42for this to become something that is more than just
1:22:45a curiosity that a bunch of rich people do in San Francisco
1:22:48when they go to Whole Foods, you know?
1:22:50- Right, well, and the timing of this is actually
1:22:52amazingly good because the US,
1:22:56there's finally now a big movement to move to chip and pin
1:22:59ever since what I believe was started out
1:23:01as the target credit card hack thing.
1:23:03I apologize to whoever was talking about this
1:23:08and I overheard it on a podcast and I forgot who it was,
1:23:10but basically in the last couple years
1:23:12there have been so many massive scale credit card hacks
1:23:15in the US, especially the big target one,
1:23:17that it's finally getting so expensive
1:23:20for the credit card processors to deal with
1:23:22all the resulting fraud and everything,
1:23:23that they're now finally pushing the US
1:23:26to adopt chip and PIN.
1:23:27- Well, the fraud rate has been really low
1:23:29and it has gone up slightly with these hacks.
1:23:32But all it takes is for the fraud rate to go up slightly
1:23:34for these business credit card companies
1:23:36live and die based on their terrible fees
1:23:38that they charge you, their crazy interest rates,
1:23:42but also the fraud rates.
1:23:44And so the fraud rate goes up 1%,
1:23:46that is enough for them to say,
1:23:47"All right, finally, we have to get rid of this
1:23:48"through magnetic stripe stuff."
1:23:49Like there is a big turnover in that type of like that's the reason they drag their feet like everything we have now is fine
1:23:55Why would we invest in changing it?
1:23:57All you need is the fraud rate to take up like a percent or two and suddenly it becomes economically feasible to go to something
1:24:03better and it's I suppose there's a competition between the
1:24:06Little chip things they have in the rest of the civilized world and something like this NFC thing
1:24:11exactly, and and that's why I think like because this shift is finally happening in the US and because you know you what you said earlier
1:24:19about the concentration of power in the US
1:24:20being such that the US is a fairly straightforward market
1:24:24to dominate if you can get a handful of people on board.
1:24:27That's why I think this has a very good chance of succeeding
1:24:31because all those credit card terminals all over the place
1:24:34are gonna have to get upgraded in the next few years anyway.
1:24:36And so they're probably gonna get upgraded
1:24:38to something that supports NFC
1:24:39if NFC is widely out there, which now it will be.
1:24:42- So do you think it'll be socially awkward to do this,
1:24:46to be early on in the Apple Pay adoption?
1:24:50- No, I don't think so at all.
1:24:53Because I mean, think of,
1:24:54the convenience just trumps everything.
1:24:56Like, do you remember when the little kiosks
1:24:59where you had to swipe your own card first came out?
1:25:01- Oh yeah, yeah. - Right?
1:25:03And it was a change and everyone just got used to it
1:25:05and that was it.
1:25:06Do you have one of those little dongly things
1:25:07that you use at the gas station
1:25:08so you don't have to swipe your card?
1:25:10- No, no.
1:25:11- I have one of those.
1:25:12I've had one of those for what, 10, 15 years?
1:25:14They're awesome.
1:25:15you get one, you never go back to the old way.
1:25:18Like, and this is the equivalent of that.
1:25:19As soon as people can like rub some part of their purse
1:25:22or whatever up against the thing and pay for things.
1:25:24- Oh my goodness.
1:25:25- Yeah, you're gonna rub your purse against the gas pump?
1:25:27Yeah, okay.
1:25:28- You know what I mean?
1:25:29Like the convenience of just like the,
1:25:32like it is so much easier than the,
1:25:34and even though the video was ridiculous,
1:25:36like, oh, it's so hard to get cards out of a wall.
1:25:38I just really expected eggshells to crack
1:25:39on top of the person's hair when she was doing that.
1:25:41Like, like from the infomercials.
1:25:43Spill the person onto the floor. Yeah, just all things are everywhere anyway as silly as that is this is kind of like the whole
1:25:50I watch thing we talked about before
1:25:52Taking away the the need to rummage through your purse to pull out the card to hand it to the person to hand it to
1:25:58Back they didn't show the part of signing which some places still make you do do the stupid signature on the thing
1:26:02That's decreased a lot lately without requiring sign, but like that little dance is not that inconvenient
1:26:09But if you can cut most of it out it is addicting to be able to do that. It is nice
1:26:14Why would you ever like it's like well, okay, that wasn't a problem. I had no problem doing that, but this is slightly more convenient
1:26:21What is the reason you would ever go back to the other way and this actually has it as they pointed out many times like
1:26:26You know this has advantages over the old way and that you don't have to give your credit card number to anybody
1:26:30They don't have to know anything about you or your name like using the tokens is more secure reveals less information
1:26:36to Apple anyway, the credit card company still knows what you bought and where and when but you know
1:26:39It's not Apple's not helping with that, but they're not it is a potentially more secure
1:26:46Which is why everybody likes it reduce fraud and everything
1:26:48Service that is more convenient to you and it's not that it's going to be such a life-changing thing
1:26:52It's just to give you once once that is an option for you
1:26:54You will never like you will never go to one of the stores that has that option and say you know what I want to
1:27:00Dig my credit card out of my wallet instead. You just won't what's the point?
1:27:02There's no upside and so it will just completely switch over to doing it the more convenient way
1:27:06If they can get these things in enough places, it will hopefully not be a novelty
1:27:10But more like be like the defaults for the the three stores that you you know
1:27:15Where I shop for my groceries where I go for my you know
1:27:18Home supplies or whatever if if the three or four stories you frequent all have this it will just become the way you pay for
1:27:23things
1:27:24That I think it's going to be a interesting challenge for them to get in enough locations fast enough for this not to be some weird
1:27:32again, a curiosity that is only in a few places.
1:27:36- And also, think about the lock-in effects they have
1:27:39once this is everywhere.
1:27:41This is not gonna force everyone to buy iPhones,
1:27:44but it will make it harder to ever move away from an iPhone.
1:27:46It's gonna be like one more thing that,
1:27:50if you have an iPhone and you're thinking about
1:27:51switching to some new Android hotness or whatever,
1:27:54you'll have to think about, oh,
1:27:55then I won't be able to use this in the exact same way.
1:27:57And even if the other thing supports NFC,
1:27:59it'd be like, well, it might be different,
1:28:01might not work as well, you know.
1:28:02- I wonder what kind of lock-in they're really getting,
1:28:05'cause like the hardware is capable of doing anything.
1:28:07So if Android does some sort of thing
1:28:09and Google does stuff with payment processor,
1:28:10like there's no reason that other companies
1:28:12couldn't strike the same deals.
1:28:13And presumably if the hardware is there,
1:28:16it is a business and software decision.
1:28:19Like once the readers are everywhere,
1:28:21I don't think Apple has any particular lock-in
1:28:24to those readers, 'cause those readers could be repurposed
1:28:26to read payments from Android phones just as easily.
1:28:29So it's more of a can other companies do the deals
1:28:33with all of the credit card companies and banks
1:28:36and retailers in the same way that Apple has done.
1:28:39- Oh yeah, I'm not saying they can't,
1:28:40but I'm saying like you, not you,
1:28:42but most people as users might consider that like,
1:28:45oh, I've gotten used to waving my iPhone in front of this
1:28:48and using Touch ID to do this.
1:28:50If I move to Android phone, it might not work that well,
1:28:52or it might be different, or it might not work at all,
1:28:54depending on the setup and everything.
1:28:57I know, of course, these are standard NFC things,
1:28:59and I know that other things will work with it,
1:29:02but there will be that kind of psychological lock-in effect.
1:29:05That's one more thing about my life
1:29:07that I will have to change,
1:29:09and possibly lose, if I switch.
1:29:12And the watch, we'll get to the watch,
1:29:14but the watch is exactly the same.
1:29:16It has exactly the same effect,
1:29:18which is like, this is one more thing
1:29:20that I'm gonna have to change if I switch away from this.
1:29:24- As someone pointed in the chat rooms,
1:29:26The touch ID is a factor in this because it gives Apple the rate that you get if the credit
1:29:32card is present at the transaction.
1:29:35You have a lower surcharge than if you're just entering the number.
1:29:40These are all weird details, investages of the credit card processing industry, but basically
1:29:44Apple can make better deals because it was able to convince the credit card companies
1:29:49that touch ID is a sufficiently secure thing that they should get the same rate that someone
1:29:53gets if they physically have the card there with them.
1:29:55So you won't need to have your credit card with you, but Apple will pay the smaller surcharge.
1:29:58And like, basically, you know, Apple is doing what it does best, making deals with the big
1:30:02companies, making deals that are as favorable as possible to it, that also make their partners
1:30:07happy and using technology to do that.
1:30:09Because Apple Pay only works from devices that have Touch ID or devices that require
1:30:14a device that has Touch ID, like the watch.
1:30:17And Android will find a much harder time doing that because even if they come out with something
1:30:21like Touch ID, it will be forever or possibly never
1:30:24that it is everywhere on every Android device.
1:30:26Like it's so much harder to make penetration
1:30:28versus like this Apple's already got,
1:30:29what are they, was it 200 million?
1:30:31I think, I don't know if they were talking about
1:30:32the fives, the stuff that worked at the watch already.
1:30:34- Yeah, 200 million was the number of iPhone five
1:30:37and above owners.
1:30:38- So the five S's and the six is very soon,
1:30:42a huge number of iOS devices will have Touch ID.
1:30:45Touch ID is a big strategic advantage to Apple
1:30:47when it comes to stuff like this,
1:30:49because it is another factor in the authentication soup
1:30:51and it's helping Apple make better deals
1:30:53and I think it will actually help people
1:30:55feel slightly better about doing this transaction.
1:30:59Like that it's not just, oh, if you steal my phone,
1:31:02you can buy things.
1:31:03You can unless you have their thumbprint or whatever.
1:31:04And I've just from repeatedly unlocking my wife's phone
1:31:08with Touch ID and repeatedly redoing the stupid Touch ID
1:31:11every time I put a new build of iOS 8 on it,
1:31:13which kind of annoys me.
1:31:15I'm a big fan of Touch ID.
1:31:16I have great success rates.
1:31:17I think it is.
1:31:18We wondered when it first came out,
1:31:19will this be good enough to be,
1:31:21like will it be like Siri where it's like,
1:31:23well you play with it for a while,
1:31:24but then you realize the success rate is too low
1:31:25for you to really trust it for anything.
1:31:27Touch ID I feel like has totally crossed that bar.
1:31:29I trust it for the intended purpose.
1:31:31It works.
1:31:32If it ever misses, I try it.
1:31:33Like, it's convenience trumps the whatever small percentage
1:31:37of failure rate that I get on it.
1:31:38Just don't try to use it when you come out of the shower
1:31:40'cause your skin is all floppy and it doesn't work.
1:31:42(laughing)
1:31:43- Now before we move on, somebody did find TIFF,
1:31:46And in fact, it was Drunk Casey, right?
1:31:49Yeah, so Drunk Casey alerted Tiff to our call earlier
1:31:52to see if she could come in and she saw it
1:31:54and she now is in.
1:31:55And if we are still interested in hearing
1:31:58one woman's opinion on the iPhone's sizes,
1:32:03you wanna put her on?
1:32:05- Yeah, it's fine.
1:32:06- All right.
1:32:07- Hey guys, what's up?
1:32:08- Hi.
1:32:09So I'd asked earlier what your conclusion was
1:32:15about which phone you're going to potentially get
1:32:18because you used trying the phone on as a convenient excuse
1:32:22to show the internet your butt.
1:32:24And so I was curious if you reached a conclusion.
1:32:29- Well, I did enjoy showing the internet my butt.
1:32:33I asked Marco if it would be okay.
1:32:36And he's like, "I don't own your butt."
1:32:37- Yeah, exactly.
1:32:38I was just gonna say the same thing.
1:32:39Why are you not asking permission?
1:32:41It's your butt, you do what you want with it.
1:32:42- I would ask him to ask me permission
1:32:44if he wanted to show the internet his butt.
1:32:46- He doesn't.
1:32:47- You know, it's a give and take kind of thing.
1:32:48(laughing)
1:32:50But no, I think my conclusion is that I might stick
1:32:53with the phone I have because--
1:32:55- What?
1:32:56Like a crazy person. - I know.
1:32:57- You're gonna use the same iPhone for two years?
1:33:00- I know, like an animal.
1:33:01Like--
1:33:02(laughing)
1:33:04I don't know because it's just gonna be so big.
1:33:06But I mean, I thought that this one,
1:33:09I was appalled by how light it felt at first, you know,
1:33:12and you got the new one, the most recent new one.
1:33:13what is this the five something was this five s Yeah, you're probably appalled by the lightness
1:33:18when you get the five because that's when it got taller and it was also very light compared
1:33:21to the four s Yeah, like anytime it changes. I'm like, this is the worst and then you know,
1:33:26when the new IO iOS Yeah, I'm saying the right things, right? Yeah, when that came on and
1:33:30it all looked like all candy pop and I'm like, this is terrible to everything's ruined and
1:33:35so I hated everything and then I like, you know, had it for two weeks and I looked at
1:33:39at my old phone, I'm like, this phone is so old. Why did I ever want that old phone? It's
1:33:45the worst. So I have a little bit of that still in my mind that I might, you know, look
1:33:51at it, look back and be like, Oh, that little phone was so old. You know, once I get the
1:33:55bigger one being bigger, I mean like the 4.7 so the five five is in a no fly zone is out
1:34:01of the question out of the question. I can't my hand. I mean, you can't like scroll all
1:34:07the way I can't even reach the other side of the phone. I'm holding the paper right
1:34:10now looking at it my little lady thumb and I'll drop it. Marco's little man throat
1:34:15can't reach the home button.
1:34:16Well, everything is weensy on Marco that's to be expected. He's dainty. Oh, man, I don't
1:34:24even I was about to ask you something that would totally derail. Okay, so the theory
1:34:28is sitting here now on a Wednesday night before the pre order, you are going to ask Marco
1:34:34to pre-order nothing to get you nothing and then if Marco ends up coming back with the
1:34:41four seven, what do you think the chances are that you're going to look at it and say,
1:34:44"Holy crap, I need that."
1:34:48Probably a 70% chance that I'll say that I need that because I can't help it. I like
1:34:52having the new stuff. But I don't know. I just like my little, I like being able to
1:34:58just, it's in my pocket and it's small and like I discussed on Twitter and showed everyone
1:35:03on Twitter that my pockets are small and it doesn't. I mean, my phone currently barely
1:35:07fits in there. Do you do really keep your iPhone in your back pocket and then sit down
1:35:11with it? I really do. And you sit down and share a hard chairs with the iPhone in your
1:35:15back pocket? Well, it depends on the surface is from sitting down on the soft chair it
1:35:18stays in if it's a hard chair comes out. Weird. I evaluate or you know, depending on the situation.
1:35:24That sounds like way too much work. I know it is. If I'm at the park, it usually comes
1:35:28out and into my front pocket because I'm like up and down with the you know, with our son.
1:35:31So it's in and out.
1:35:34Plus the sand, you know, usually have it out.
1:35:37- Fair enough.
1:35:38And since you're here and I presume
1:35:39you're about to be banished,
1:35:41immediate thoughts on whether or not
1:35:43you would desire an Apple Watch?
1:35:45I almost did it too.
1:35:46- I like wearing jewelry too much
1:35:48to kind of mess that all up.
1:35:50I think my accessories, I decide to choose what I'm wearing.
1:35:53You know, that's just the type of girl that I am.
1:35:55I never was at watch wear,
1:35:57so I don't think I would get into it.
1:36:00Let's see previous comments about Marco getting something new and shiny.
1:36:03Yeah, but I mean, come on.
1:36:05If I had if I got the big phone and I can't Oh, he's putting it on my wrist.
1:36:08Is that the little one?
1:36:09Little one?
1:36:10Oh, that looks kind of nice.
1:36:13That one's too big.
1:36:14Yeah.
1:36:15That may I might be changing my mind.
1:36:17The gold one looks nice.
1:36:18Marco, we should do that one.
1:36:19What do you think?
1:36:20It's pretty thick.
1:36:21Yeah.
1:36:22I don't know.
1:36:23Well, if I got the big phone, then the big phone might end up living in my purse.
1:36:28And I could take it out when, you know, our son is sleeping and I could do Twitter on
1:36:32it.
1:36:33But if I need notifications, it could be right on my wrist.
1:36:34So that's convenient.
1:36:35And you could send Marco your heartbeat.
1:36:37Exactly.
1:36:38And, you know, we could draw a little doodles that are important.
1:36:42All right.
1:36:43Before I lose all capacity to be an adult.
1:36:46So we're saying no fly zone for the five five tentative.
1:36:49Yes.
1:36:50On the four seven and tentative.
1:36:52Yes.
1:36:53On the Apple watch.
1:36:54Yeah.
1:36:55Yeah.
1:36:56I might need to go to the watch for notifications for you know, like little text messages stuff
1:37:00So I know when to take my phone out of the purse
1:37:02Plus you'd buy like all the bands so you could have a choice each day
1:37:05Oh, yeah
1:37:06That's what I'd have to do if I were to get the watch because it needs to match
1:37:09But then you can only you had then I have to get two faces because one's gold and one silver so
1:37:14Depends that have faces. That's two watches. Yeah, feel free to get to watch some people wear both at once. Yeah, exactly
1:37:20Marco's over there. He's rubbing his eyes and like holding his head. He's like, oh god
1:37:25Why wouldn't you have a day watching a night watch - I know I mean come on
1:37:30Alrighty. Well, thank you for the feminine influence for tonight. Oh, you're very welcome. Here is dainty Marco back. Oh
1:37:37Man I don't think we get away with calling him dainty Marco. Hi such a good idea to have your wife on the show
1:37:46Isn't it Marco?
1:37:48Regretting it in the background. No, that was great. I can't wait to hear the your no
1:37:52I was sitting there like right in my eyes like I wasn't concerned about like having to buy multiple devices
1:37:58I was thinking like oh my god
1:38:00I'm gonna have to wait on like five different lines to get all the watches that we're gonna want
1:38:05And all the different bands. Yes. Yeah
1:38:07All right. So let's let's talk about some are we done with Apple pay?
1:38:12Actually one one quick observation. I know this doesn't relate to iCloud, but it is kind of funny to me that
1:38:22after all of this angst and agita about iCloud just what a week or two ago now Apple's saying to the world
1:38:28Yes, trust us with your credit cards and trust us with your with all of this
1:38:32We will be okay
1:38:33And I mean I understand because I'm an engineer that one is not really related to the other
1:38:39But it is kind of funny to me that there wasn't even like even a snicker or a nod to the fact that there was
1:38:45All sorts of iCloud agita just a week or two ago. Well, I mean, yeah, first of all, like I think the geeks
1:38:51Even people who are extremely critical of Apple
1:38:53Know that like okay. Well, the credit cards aren't being stored in iCloud and stuff like that. Like like it there's like
1:39:01Even that like it's hard to argue
1:39:03You know like falsehoods about that being related or not related
1:39:07Secondly people have a very short memory with this kind of stuff very very short and and you know Apple pay isn't even out yet
1:39:16It's not gonna launch for at least another like month and a half or they said they said October
1:39:20It's right now early September
1:39:22That might be like Halloween when it launches like it or it might be November and like oh well
1:39:27You know we started launching it in October like they're like
1:39:29That that's long enough away that the celebrity nude hack thing is gonna be forgotten people have already forgotten you can yeah
1:39:37It's a week old and they forgotten
1:39:39Yeah
1:39:39Not that we're saying that they should and it's not a big deal
1:39:41But reality wise like that that type of news story
1:39:44The cycle that it the news cycle that it's in will turn over 97 times for that
1:39:49I think it could still be in the back of people's minds, but
1:39:51You know for Apple Pay in particular Apple has a good story to tell customers
1:39:56The story unfortunately involves credit card companies and banks knowing everything they currently know and and you know
1:40:02But as you say well at least Apple is not adding another party
1:40:05That's gonna know everything because Apple is not participating in that information exchange and has no
1:40:09No reason to it doesn't base its business model around having that information or controlling it or selling or anything. It doesn't even want it
1:40:17Everybody else still has it people are totally okay with that now with credit cards
1:40:20It seems except for the people who only pay for everything with cash. So I
1:40:24Think that'll be a non-factor at least an Apple pay
1:40:26All right. Do you want to whine about the iPod touch and or iPod classic anyone?
1:40:32That's the best follow-up is like we were just for trying to predict like one or two episodes ago
1:40:37Like oh the iPod class is gonna be around forever. They're never gonna kill it and then yesterday killed it
1:40:41Well, no, we said they could kill it at any time when we always expect them to and so far they haven't, you know
1:40:45But there you go
1:40:47It really is remarkable that they did kill it like of all of all the changes they made yesterday
1:40:51To everything to their site to their store like how did how is that a high enough priority to even be removed from the site?
1:40:58It's nice and symbolic if you want to go into their whole like oh the revolutionary input methods to finally retire the last
1:41:04Well, I guess does the nano have a click wheel didn't retire the last one with the click wheel
1:41:07I guess I think it's touch but I mean so was the class, you know what I mean?
1:41:11like the wheel. Anyway, it's like phasing out of the original iPod form factor. And
1:41:17also all that's left now is the Nano and the Shuffle and the Touch, which isn't really
1:41:20an iPod.
1:41:21Fair enough. All right. So let's talk about this Apple Watch, which, by the way, don't
1:41:27call it an iWatch.
1:41:29That's going to be difficult. I'll slowly train myself out of it.
1:41:32Why do you think we're abandoning the i?
1:41:36Maybe it's kind of dated.
1:41:37It's not so much just that it's dated.
1:41:40I think it may be misguided because I understand why they're doing it, but using generics is
1:41:47not a great way to do it.
1:41:48It's kind of the same reason that car makers all move to the BMW Mercedes naming convention.
1:41:55We've talked about this back on neutral.
1:41:57So a BMW has a series of numbers and letters, and Mercedes has numbers and letters as well.
1:42:03has a, you know, a and then followed by a number or whatever, but when Acura came into
1:42:10the luxury car business, which is Honda's luxury brand, they had the Acura Legend and
1:42:14the Acura Integra, and what happened is that people would refer to their Legend or their
1:42:19Integra, they wouldn't say the word Acura, and that's bad, so the theory goes for Acura
1:42:24brand recognition, so Acura changed all his cars from the Legend and the Integra to a
1:42:30a series of nonsensical letters like TL and RSX and also kind of made its car scraper
1:42:34too, but anyway that's another story for a different podcast.
1:42:38The theory being that if you give your cars names that are just a bunch of alphabet soup
1:42:43or numbers, people will have to say the word "accura" more and the word "accura" will
1:42:47be in their mind more.
1:42:48So by calling our things the Apple Watch and Apple Pay and the Apple TV, it makes people
1:42:55say Apple repeatedly or associate these products more with Apple, whereas you could say iPod
1:43:00iWatch, there's the possibility in the mind, again in the mind of marketers, and maybe
1:43:05in reality that people don't even understand who makes the iPod.
1:43:08Is that Microsoft?
1:43:09They know iPod.
1:43:10They know iPhone.
1:43:12They might know iWatch, but to the really casual person, connecting that all back to
1:43:16Apple requires a leap of brand knowledge which may or may not be as strong as Apple would
1:43:21like it to be.
1:43:22Now, Apple does have a tremendously strong brand, one of the strongest brands in the
1:43:24entire world.
1:43:25This is probably not a problem for them, but I can see some marketer in a meeting saying,
1:43:30this will really help people continue to hammer
1:43:33the word Apple into their mind.
1:43:35Oh, you wanna pay with Apple Pay instead of saying I pay?
1:43:37Oh, you have an Apple Watch, is that your Apple TV?
1:43:40The reason I think it might not be a great idea
1:43:43is because they're using generics.
1:43:45Watch, TV, pay, mail, I hate Apple Mail.
1:43:49Every time I write an OS X review,
1:43:51I have to write Apple Mail,
1:43:52'cause I just write mail with a capital letter,
1:43:53people think I misplaced a capital letter or something,
1:43:57Or am I talking about like mail,
1:43:59like the internet as like a concept?
1:44:01No, I'm talking about, I'm never gonna write mail.app
1:44:03'cause screw file name extensions.
1:44:05So I always have to say Apple Mail, right?
1:44:08Using a generic Apple Watch, like it would be better,
1:44:13like in that respect, I think iPad and iPod
1:44:17is not great with the A and the O or whatever,
1:44:19but I think iPod and iPhone are better than a generic
1:44:24because you can't just say watch by itself.
1:44:26you have to say Apple Watch.
1:44:28So I think I see what they're going for,
1:44:32but to me it feels a lot like MacBook,
1:44:34where it's like, I don't like it,
1:44:35I still think MacBook is dumb,
1:44:37I still think PowerBook was a better name,
1:44:38but in that case they were getting the Mac name out there,
1:44:41it's in iMac, it's in MacBook, you know it's a Mac.
1:44:44Maybe the next computer will be the Apple Mac,
1:44:48instead of just Mac, because it's not enough to, you know,
1:44:51that's my theory behind it.
1:44:52- The Apple 15.
1:44:54- I'm not a fan.
1:44:55- Well, I mean, a couple things.
1:44:57I mean, first of all, Apple TV did this too.
1:44:59It was, when it was in development, it was called ITV.
1:45:02In fact, they even called it ITV.
1:45:03They went through this similar thing
1:45:05where people were first referring to it as the ITV,
1:45:07and then when it was released,
1:45:08it was released as the Apple TV.
1:45:09And it sounded weird.
1:45:10- Oh, that was the BBC, or not was it BBC, I don't know.
1:45:13One of those various things, UK people,
1:45:15you need more things to correct us on, there you go.
1:45:17(laughing)
1:45:18Whatever that ITV thing that you guys have,
1:45:21it made us not be able to call it ITV.
1:45:23- Right, so there was that,
1:45:24where it's like, I think it sounds weird,
1:45:28you know, yesterday and today.
1:45:29I think, like Apple TV doesn't sound weird to me anymore.
1:45:31It sounded weird the first day.
1:45:33I think we'll get over it quickly.
1:45:35Secondly, I don't think it's quite as much about
1:45:39trying to boost the Apple brand.
1:45:41I think that's part of it.
1:45:42But I think another big part of it is fashion.
1:45:46It is high fashion and high fashion branding.
1:45:50As a society, we are okay having phones in our pockets
1:45:53and taking them out occasionally,
1:45:54and having computers in our bags,
1:45:56and taking them out when we're using them.
1:45:57When you're wearing something all the time,
1:46:00like all day, every day, you're wearing something on you,
1:46:02that is jewelry, that is an accessory,
1:46:04the standards are so much higher
1:46:08for what people are willing to wear
1:46:10than what they're willing to carry in their pocket.
1:46:13And I watch kind of sounds geeky.
1:46:16Like to me, I watch sounds nerdy.
1:46:19It's you know, CamelCase itself is pretty nerdy,
1:46:22And it just kinda like, that sounds nerdy to me.
1:46:25Whereas Apple Watch sounds like a higher class brand name.
1:46:29Even though I know it's a trick in certain ways,
1:46:33but it just sounds like iWatch is a geek thing
1:46:38and Apple Watch is a fashion thing.
1:46:42- They really wanted to go fashion,
1:46:43they could've called it Watch by Apple.
1:46:46(laughing)
1:46:48The weird thing about fashion is,
1:46:49we talked about this before I think,
1:46:52The tolerance for being a billboard is strangely high in the fashion world because then maybe I'm still getting this wrong
1:46:58I think I got it wrong another show and I re get it wrong people can re-correct me the whole idea being that you can't
1:47:02copyright or
1:47:03Otherwise protect the intellectual property of a design of something like a purse or a shoe
1:47:07But you can protect your logo because that's your trademark
1:47:10So they put their logos all over everything right and so now logos become part of the design because you know you have a we
1:47:17Need tiff to come back and tell me but you know
1:47:18Louis Vuitton bag or something with little logo all over it and that becomes like a pattern and you know
1:47:23It becomes the logo itself becomes fashion and so it's like Apple doesn't put their logos
1:47:28You know the logo on the back of the phone but not on the front and on the Apple watch
1:47:32I don't think was there a logo anywhere on that thing?
1:47:34I think on the back it has the little Apple but but Rolex has the little Rolex symbol in the word Rolex and Louis Vuitton
1:47:39bags and also things are just
1:47:41Covered with things like that and an apple does not have its logo everywhere
1:47:45They say look they said logos on the back engraved anyway
1:47:48Well, I said watch by Apple, but that's like it doesn't have a name like a product and
1:47:54I think maybe it could benefit from one especially if it's gonna be like a high-end watch because all these Rolex is like
1:48:01It's a product name for the type of watch it
1:48:03I don't know enough about high-end watches to know but like you can't just say watch by itself you have to say Apple watch every
1:48:08Time and it's a little bit of a mouthful
1:48:10Is that your watch? Yeah, it's an Apple watch
1:48:12You're right that iWatch sounds geekier, but Apple Watch just seems like
1:48:15kind of a mouthful and kind of
1:48:18generic and boring, but even swatch is better. Is that a swatch? Like that's a brand too, but it's just you know
1:48:24a sub brand of some Swiss company that make you know, I mean like I don't I
1:48:27don't know. I'm not I
1:48:30really wish I almost wish it'd be cold out.
1:48:33Because iPhone like has worked out really well. Don't you think iPhone has worked out well? Like granted it is more of a geek product
1:48:38but I think
1:48:40because this is fashion
1:48:41That's maybe a reason not to make it so geeky, but it's geeky fashion
1:48:46I mean, we'll get to this when we talk about the thing itself
1:48:48But like there's no escaping it
1:48:49The iPhone was a geeky kind of phone and eventually everybody had phone but everyone was totally comfortable to having their iPhone
1:48:54sure, well, but also that was seven years ago and
1:48:57And so not only is is that name coming from a different era, but it might even be played out
1:49:02Well, I mean I'm not saying that I had to go on forever
1:49:06I'm not a great fan of the eye either but like it will here's what we'll find out if this goes all eye touchy
1:49:11You know the same way everyone calls the iPod touch the iTouch because they just like know Apple we do not accept your name
1:49:16It's an iTouch forever and ever so creepy people could choose to just call this the iWatch
1:49:20I mean we're doing it accidentally because we've been calling it that watch for a long time
1:49:24We'll probably come around because we're the kind of geeks who care about what things are named
1:49:27But just let's convene back
1:49:30What if this watch has been out for six months and see if everybody you know still calls it an iWatch or if they call
1:49:35It because a MacBook caught on people said MacBook, but people did not say iPod touch. They say iTouch right so
1:49:40We'll see how this goes.
1:49:42Really, it's not up to us, and it's not up to Apple's marketers whether this gets pulled
1:49:45off.
1:49:46It's up to the world at large.
1:49:48And the little thing with the Apple logo and then the word, and then writing it out sometimes,
1:49:54then having the little logo with the thing in it, that always struck me as weird with
1:49:57Apple TV.
1:49:59We're all used to it.
1:50:00Everyone knows how they're going to do it.
1:50:02The rule is you just write it out the long way if you're writing about it, but if you
1:50:04want to make it as a little logo mark or whatever the word is, you put the little Apple logo
1:50:08and the thing next to it.
1:50:09And the small caps for watch, also not a fan of that.
1:50:13- Well, that's just stylization in the marketing materials.
1:50:16That's not the name.
1:50:17- I know, but isn't that, the StrikeU is weird.
1:50:19Like I can't think of, I guess, I mean,
1:50:20technically Apple did it for Apple TV,
1:50:22but TV is always, you know, all caps are small caps,
1:50:25so it doesn't look as weird there.
1:50:27- Yeah, I wouldn't put too much thought into that.
1:50:29I mean, technically 5S, the S is lowercase,
1:50:31but we all write it uppercase.
1:50:33- Yeah, yeah, I know.
1:50:35But it just seems like you like naming
1:50:38to be like a nice clean win.
1:50:40And lately the naming has been weird.
1:50:44Not consistent with itself
1:50:47and there's always some little problem.
1:50:51- So do you think in the next year or two
1:50:53that the iPhone will become the Apple phone?
1:50:55- No.
1:50:56- On account of?
1:50:58- Because there's just too much brand equity in iPhone.
1:51:00It's a great name.
1:51:01- Yeah, iPhone is established.
1:51:03- When are we gonna give up numbers?
1:51:05- Yeah, that's coming sooner than that I think.
1:51:07the number thing, like again, talk about the naming stuff,
1:51:10ditching it for the iPad for being the new iPad
1:51:12'cause they wanna stop doing it, but like,
1:51:14the time is coming for the end of iPhone numbers.
1:51:17Like, I don't think they're gonna go too far
1:51:19into double digits with the iPhone
1:51:20'cause it'll just start seeming--
1:51:22- I don't think they'll get to double digits.
1:51:24- I mean, 'cause people will just lose track.
1:51:25Do you have the iPhone 13 or nine or 10,
1:51:28like, just like, whatever.
1:51:30- See, it wouldn't surprise me if they did make it
1:51:32at least like to eight or nine,
1:51:34because like, the public kinda names these for them.
1:51:37Like, remember when I blogged briefly about like,
1:51:39when the 4S came out and everyone freaked out
1:51:41because it wasn't the iPhone 5?
1:51:44And like, the response was so incredibly brutal,
1:51:49unnecessarily and unfairly brutal,
1:51:52because the 4S was like, quote,
1:51:54"Not the real iPhone 5," or like, or not an iPhone 5.
1:51:58And so the next year, even though the iPhone 5
1:52:00was the sixth iPhone, they called it iPhone 5,
1:52:03because like everybody was demanding iPhone 5
1:52:07and the entire world was calling it iPhone 5
1:52:09before it was even announced.
1:52:11And so they just adopted that
1:52:12'cause it was probably presumed to be better
1:52:15for overall brand recognition and blah, blah, blah.
1:52:18So this year it's the iPhone 6.
1:52:21Next year I assume they're gonna do a 6s,
1:52:23and after that they're probably gonna do a 7.
1:52:26- I think they can make it easily
1:52:27into 7, 8, and possibly even 9.
1:52:30I just feel like once you start getting to doubles,
1:52:31the numbers start to blur in people's minds
1:52:34and they can't, like it's easier for people to remember
1:52:35five, six, seven, then for them to remember 13, 14, 15.
1:52:39- Right, but if we keep having these S steps,
1:52:41we still have like eight more years to go.
1:52:44- They've got time.
1:52:45I mean, ditching them on the iPad has worked out,
1:52:50more or less, like people don't care.
1:52:51iPad, iPad Air.
1:52:55- It is, but that also came with a massive revision.
1:52:59Like, we'll see, what are they gonna call this fall's iPad?
1:53:02The latest rumor is that the Retina Mini
1:53:04won't even be updated, and there's gonna be
1:53:08basically an iPad Air 2.
1:53:10Is that gonna be the name?
1:53:11Is it gonna be the iPad Air in parentheses late 2014?
1:53:16(laughs)
1:53:17What's it gonna be?
1:53:18- They haven't been renaming the Mac Pro.
1:53:20It's not the Mac Pro 2, the Mac Pro 3.
1:53:22It will work out.
1:53:24- The difference though with these products
1:53:25is that phones seem to get upgraded either annually
1:53:29if you're impatient and spoiled, or biannually,
1:53:32at least in the US, biannually if you're a normal person.
1:53:35Does that mean every other year?
1:53:36- Don't go into that.
1:53:37- Yeah, so the point is--
1:53:38- It means both.
1:53:39- I think it means fortnightly.
1:53:41- Yeah. (laughs)
1:53:43You know what I mean though, so--
1:53:44- Fort annually.
1:53:45- The thing is that these other products like the iPad,
1:53:49generally speaking, those aren't upgraded on an annual
1:53:53or every couple year basis, unlike a phone.
1:53:56And so I think having the numbers on the phone
1:53:59makes a little more sense,
1:54:01and it will be harder to get rid of than on an iPad,
1:54:03which you may only upgrade every two to three years.
1:54:07- Yeah, we shall see.
1:54:08We went off on a long tangent.
1:54:09Let's talk about the watch.
1:54:11- I love that we are now two hours in
1:54:13and we haven't talked about the watch really yet.
1:54:15- People are gonna kill us.
1:54:17- So when I was watching this video,
1:54:20I know there's gonna be,
1:54:21I was pretty sure there's gonna be a watch.
1:54:24They did the one more thing,
1:54:25which I don't wanna get distracted on.
1:54:26I think it's fine.
1:54:27If you're gonna hold it back for something,
1:54:29this is what you hold it back for.
1:54:30I don't really care what Steve Jobs would have thought about them using his whole ideas.
1:54:33They're supposed to do what they think is right.
1:54:35They thought this was right.
1:54:36I thought it was fine.
1:54:37This is a significant product.
1:54:39Then they showed the little intro video.
1:54:43Tim Cook talked about it and he's like, "This is so important.
1:54:45It's a new product category."
1:54:46He didn't say it was a watch or anything like that.
1:54:48He's like, "And here it is."
1:54:49And you see the video and they show you.
1:54:51This is going to be your first glimpse of this thing.
1:54:53And they show you close-ups of parts of it.
1:54:54You can't tell what's what.
1:54:55So they showed the sensors in the back and you couldn't really...
1:54:58They look crazy.
1:54:59What the hell is this some sort of alien device and they show you the little crown, but you don't know
1:55:03It's the crown yet, and it looks really weird
1:55:05and
1:55:07so
1:55:08Watching this video. I thought the little details. They showing were really cool like this is something unexpected
1:55:14This does not look like any watch. I've seen and it's kind of like one of those things at the back of the was like yeah
1:55:18Games magazine anyway one of those kids magazines where they show you an extreme close-up of something you have to guess what it is
1:55:25And it's hard to tell because it's really close up
1:55:27That's what the beginning of his video was for and when they like in the third or fourth shot when they finally show you the
1:55:32Watch itself and it rotates into view my first
1:55:35Impression immediate was disappointment that it looked
1:55:38Like a smartwatch that was my immediate first impression. What was your guys the reaction to that?
1:55:44Same I I was
1:55:47Starting to feel more and more smug about my own theory that
1:55:51It wouldn't look like a pebble or anything like that and it would be more about sensors than anything else
1:55:56It's sort of about sensors, but I was way off base and I was hoping for and expecting something that looked
1:56:04Totally different and I think and you touched on this the digital crown
1:56:08That's sort of different in that it's using something. We already know but in a very different way
1:56:13But it I was surprised to see that it didn't look that
1:56:18wild however the
1:56:21the
1:56:23bands when they showed those.
1:56:25I actually got surprisingly excited about those.
1:56:27I thought they all looked really cool
1:56:29and it was clever the way that they have the little slide
1:56:33in and out in order to change them.
1:56:35- So what was your first gut reaction?
1:56:37It rotates into view, you finally see what it looks like.
1:56:39What do you think immediately?
1:56:40Not what you think now,
1:56:41but what did you just feel that second?
1:56:44- I completely agree with Casey, basically.
1:56:48When I first saw it, at first,
1:56:51actually a few days beforehand, a few days ago,
1:56:54some site leaked some CAD drawing of,
1:56:57turned out to be exactly right,
1:56:58a CAD drawing of the watch's body.
1:57:00And it was like the EVT, the engineering test drawing
1:57:03of something like that.
1:57:04And so when I saw that I was disappointed.
1:57:06I was like, oh man, it's just like a lumpy rectangle.
1:57:08Like I was hoping either for a round face
1:57:10or for a really minimal thin kind of design,
1:57:14like something else that didn't look like
1:57:16the other smartwatches.
1:57:18And I think, you know, all of us in the tech business,
1:57:22I've been drafting a blog post about this
1:57:23that I'm still to finish, but before the iPad came out,
1:57:28I made this post, basically we were all calling it
1:57:32the tablet, I think 'cause Goober started
1:57:34calling it the tablet, and we knew there was a tablet
1:57:37that was very heavily removed,
1:57:38we didn't know anything about it.
1:57:39And this was December '09, like about a month
1:57:42before the iPad was actually announced.
1:57:44And during this time, I made a couple of posts
1:57:48and one of them I was saying like,
1:57:49the big problem with tablets is input.
1:57:52How is Apple gonna solve the input problem?
1:57:55And virtual keyboards aren't mediocre,
1:57:59physical keyboards are clunky with a tablet,
1:58:01and I went through all the different things
1:58:03like what they could do,
1:58:04and my conclusion was basically like,
1:58:07they're probably just gonna do something
1:58:09I haven't thought of.
1:58:10And a few other people had similar thoughts
1:58:15and were writing about that.
1:58:17And then you actually, John, I found an article by you
1:58:20on ours called Antacid Tablet that I'll just paste it
1:58:23in the chat that I'm going to link to.
1:58:25And you basically said, yeah, there's a common notion
1:58:30that Apple's gonna have to do something crazy,
1:58:32but they probably won't, and they'll probably just use
1:58:34existing stuff that we all know about and just do it well.
1:58:37And that's what happened.
1:58:39And it turned out the iPad came out and they didn't invent
1:58:42any crazy new input mechanism.
1:58:44They just did the ones we knew about well.
1:58:47And it had problems.
1:58:50Input on the iPad is challenging.
1:58:52Keyboards on the iPad are still an unsolved problem.
1:58:55It has these shortcomings, but Apple just kind of punted,
1:58:59like, well, we don't really know how--
1:59:01whenever people say, oh, well, they'll
1:59:03have to just come up with something we can't think of,
1:59:06the number of times Apple has come up
1:59:08with something we are not thinking of
1:59:10is actually pretty low.
1:59:12Usually they do things that people have thought of before
1:59:14and they just do them better.
1:59:16Apple is not made of crazy gods, they're made of people.
1:59:21And chances are, if you can't think of a practical,
1:59:26reasonable, doable way to solve a problem,
1:59:29they probably can't either.
1:59:31And so we saw a lot of that leading up to this watch thing.
1:59:35Where we saw tons of people we know,
1:59:37and ourselves even included, just saying things like,
1:59:40well you can look at smartwatches that are out there
1:59:42and they have a number of problems,
1:59:43mainly size, battery life, and display,
1:59:47and interaction really.
1:59:48And so it's very, very challenging to try to figure out
1:59:53how to interact with a screen this small
1:59:55that is going to be functionally so busy,
1:59:58like have so many functions on it.
2:00:00You can't just cover the thing in buttons, that's weird.
2:00:02You can't do much with a touchscreen 'cause it's so small.
2:00:05And if it is an LCD screen, if it is a touchscreen,
2:00:08then you have battery challenges,
2:00:10which you already have battery challenges to begin with
2:00:12and that makes it even harder.
2:00:13And so you take this thing and so we were all saying,
2:00:18well, they're gonna do something we haven't thought of yet.
2:00:20They're gonna solve the battery issue or the display issue.
2:00:24They're gonna have a weird display
2:00:25that wraps around the whole thing
2:00:27or somebody doesn't even have a display.
2:00:29It's probably not gonna just gonna be a square LCD,
2:00:32like a touchscreen like everyone else has.
2:00:33When then it comes out and it is what everyone else has.
2:00:37It's just done better.
2:00:38And so, you know, I was disappointed to see that.
2:00:42I was disappointed to see like, well,
2:00:44it's, you know, I've been relatively uninterested
2:00:48in all these smartwatches so far.
2:00:51And part of this is I don't wear a watch.
2:00:52I mean, I wore a watch in middle school,
2:00:54but I haven't worn one since then.
2:00:56So, you know, so it's a bigger jump for me
2:00:59to go from no watch to a watch.
2:01:02But I was disappointed that they didn't come up
2:01:05with some magic, but I also, like,
2:01:06I can't fault them for it, because like,
2:01:07well, I don't know what they should have done
2:01:09instead of this.
2:01:10I think a round one would have looked better,
2:01:12but otherwise, it still would have been probably large.
2:01:15And look, I printed out paper printouts of these two,
2:01:19and the small one looks better on my wrist, I think.
2:01:24See, I don't know, fashion-wise,
2:01:27are men allowed to wear the small one?
2:01:29I don't even know.
2:01:30- Yeah, that's what I was thinking,
2:01:30that there'd be a lot of men who would pick the small one.
2:01:33- Regardless, the small one, looking at them now,
2:01:37It does look nicer on my wrist, but I'm worried that I won't be able to see anything
2:01:41on the screen because it is noticeably smaller.
2:01:45That I think will be a problem for anybody who picks the small one, that it does fit
2:01:49noticeably less.
2:01:50It is substantially smaller in person.
2:01:52Also, the biggest problem with these to me is that they're just so tall.
2:01:56They're thick.
2:01:58That I think is going to be challenging fashion-wise to get around.
2:02:02Now that being said, you can go back,
2:02:06probably you can pick some time in history
2:02:07and you can say, well, seeing a big phone rectangle
2:02:10in your pocket is unfashionable.
2:02:12And these days, it doesn't matter nearly as much
2:02:14because everybody's carrying around phone rectangles
2:02:15and everybody who has owned any given pair of jeans
2:02:19for more than about two months,
2:02:20you can probably see a slight wear outline
2:02:23in the phone rectangle pocket.
2:02:25You can see where they keep their phone.
2:02:27And that's just become acceptable
2:02:29because we've all decided
2:02:30that it's worth carrying these devices around.
2:02:32So maybe, like to me, the Apple Watch,
2:02:37it looks big and chunky to me,
2:02:41but we might decide as a society that's worth doing.
2:02:45But for now, similar to Casey, I saw it and I thought,
2:02:50you know, that's bigger, thicker,
2:02:53and more square than I would have preferred.
2:02:54- So I was excited to see Tim Cook echo very closely
2:02:59on stage that what I said when we talked about the iWatch on a recent, not that recent show
2:03:04or whatever, we talked about all the other existing watches and I'm like, whatever Apple
2:03:08does, all these things that these Android devices are doing, you can't just take a smartphone,
2:03:17shrink it down and shove it on your wrist, which is what all these Android devices were
2:03:20doing and it was just like this Android Wear or even a lot of the Motorola watch, it was
2:03:24like take our existing smartphone, OS and interface, squish it down, now you have little
2:03:29a tiny smartphone on your wrist.
2:03:30That just does not work, it's terrible, can't do it.
2:03:32And Tim Cook said as much on stage,
2:03:35and he was talking about it in terms of the software,
2:03:37of like, you can't just take your iPhone and shrink it down.
2:03:39He was talking entirely about,
2:03:40you can't just take an iPhone app,
2:03:41so you can't have pinch zoom,
2:03:42you can't have all the same UI,
2:03:44you can't have all this stuff.
2:03:45So I was like, right on, Tim, we agree there.
2:03:47Where we differ, and it gets back to my initial gut reaction
2:03:51to the phone is looking like a little, you know,
2:03:53Airstream trailer on your wrist,
2:03:55and a little rectangle and just the whole thing,
2:03:57is that I thought what they would go for
2:04:01is something that technology doesn't exist for now,
2:04:05but will eventually, and that is,
2:04:08like, we knew it was gonna be big.
2:04:10We knew it was gonna be thicker than you would think it was,
2:04:12and by the way, big, thick, chunky watches, I think,
2:04:14have been in fashion at various times, at least for men,
2:04:16so that's not even that big of a deal,
2:04:18but when you have something like that,
2:04:19like, okay, well, it's gotta be big
2:04:21because reasons X, Y, Z, the screen,
2:04:23and battery life, big, thick battery,
2:04:25you can try to minimize that by making the transition
2:04:29between the strap and the thing be less abrupt.
2:04:34Because a thin strap that goes into the edge
2:04:37of your little Airstream trailer on your wrist
2:04:39highlights the fact that the thing is thick
2:04:42and the strap is thin.
2:04:43Again, totally expected replaceable straps, totally.
2:04:46I mean, even again, with the getting back
2:04:47to the naked robotic core thing,
2:04:50like kind of like Fitbit does.
2:04:51If you've ever heard of Fitbit,
2:04:52they give you this little,
2:04:53they give you an actual little naked robotic core
2:04:55and it shoves into the little rubberized wrist thing.
2:04:57And not that I'm saying Apple's gonna make
2:04:58a rubberized Fitbit type thing,
2:05:00but the same type of idea that the overall shape,
2:05:02you'd have replaceable bands,
2:05:04perhaps have replaceable everything,
2:05:05and the only thing, the iWatch part of it
2:05:07would be a literal naked robotic cord
2:05:09that slid into this thing,
2:05:09and you'd try to minimize the fact that it's so darn thick
2:05:13by tapering it somehow.
2:05:14And I'm sure they investigated this or whatever,
2:05:16and probably what they came up with was,
2:05:18look, we know how to make rounded rectangles
2:05:20with screens on top really well.
2:05:22Let the, you know, the iMac,
2:05:24Let the thing be true to itself.
2:05:25It is a little tiny rounded rectangle.
2:05:27It has a CPU in it, it has a screen on top,
2:05:29it has a battery, it's a little sandwich.
2:05:31We know we're gonna make it thinner as time goes on.
2:05:34Let's just stick with this design now.
2:05:36But it just really does look like a lunchbox on your wrist.
2:05:38And they can make it fancy all they want,
2:05:40and they can put a comically oversized crown on it
2:05:43as a UI thing and have it be off center
2:05:45with a big giant button.
2:05:46And we know this will all shrink down,
2:05:48but I was really expecting them to
2:05:53to try to mask the fact that it's so big
2:05:56and instead they've essentially,
2:05:58and this is a totally John I.M.O.V.E.
2:06:00embraced it, like this is the watch,
2:06:02this is the thing, it's a metal thing,
2:06:04we can make it shiny and nice and make the details nice
2:06:07and we'll have these straps intersected in the middle
2:06:09so the thickness is kind of minified
2:06:11because if you have the straps in the bottom,
2:06:13the whole Airstream trailer will be poking up on your wrist.
2:06:15That's why when people put it on they say,
2:06:16"Oh, it doesn't look that thick, it's not so bad."
2:06:20It's just that they are not trying to smoothly transition from the watch, let alone the crazy mock-ups that had like,
2:06:27"Oh, the whole thing is a screen and like it'll be longer until we get that or whatever so they can revise that when they want to."
2:06:32But this design is definitely more jarring in and on a macro scale than I would have liked.
2:06:44But on the micro scale, it is everything you would have expected of Apple.
2:06:47the UI itself and the details of it, the way the screen works, even the transition between the screen and the case and the
2:06:53little gentle curve and the force push on the thing. Like every other detail of it that they've done
2:06:58I'm very impressed with. They are basically showing everybody else. This is how you do a smartwatch.
2:07:02You do not shrink iPhone apps down on them. It has to be a totally new interface.
2:07:05It has to be a companion to the phone for now. We're not going to put...
2:07:10People asking why the hell doesn't have a lightning port.
2:07:13That I think that's obvious you don't want any place where there are contacts that you can you know a splash of water can get
2:07:19Up inside you don't want crap to collect and bottom line lightning part takes it takes up a huge amount of space relative to the
2:07:24Size of that watch where something has to go in its hollow space
2:07:27And you have to put you know forget a lightning port was out the inductive charging is very clever like everything else about it
2:07:32I'm totally on board with just that it's a it's a little
2:07:36You know little little lunchbox on your wrist with the very nice strap around it and that is
2:07:42is like I said, when I tweeted during the presentation,
2:07:47I wanna fast forward right now
2:07:48to the iPhone 4S design of this.
2:07:50So go however many generations that is,
2:07:52it's gonna look a lot better
2:07:54like three or four years from now.
2:07:55Now it totally looks like,
2:07:58I think even the first iPhone looked better.
2:08:00I mean, there's obvious similarities
2:08:01'cause they're both kind of rounded lozenge type things,
2:08:03but yeah.
2:08:05- You know, it's funny.
2:08:07The thing that I keep thinking about
2:08:11with regard to the Apple Watch, other than,
2:08:13I don't get why I would want this,
2:08:15and as I've said numerous times in the past,
2:08:17any time I say that, I end up wanting it.
2:08:19But the other thing I was thinking about is,
2:08:23it looks to me to be extremely thick,
2:08:28and I don't think I'd be into that.
2:08:31And so I completely agree with you, Jon,
2:08:33that I've got to assume over the next couple of years
2:08:37it'll get thinner and thinner and thinner,
2:08:39And that starting to sound more appealing to me.
2:08:43- Well, like I said, I don't know enough about watches,
2:08:45but I do know that I have seen some ridiculously thick,
2:08:48like normal watches on people.
2:08:50And I think that is a fashion thing.
2:08:53Like at various times in history,
2:08:55and we may be in one of them now,
2:08:56that comically thick watches were not embarrassing, right?
2:09:01That they were, you know,
2:09:03that it was something you wanted to have,
2:09:04that it was manly, that it was exciting,
2:09:06that it was interesting, not only thick, but huge.
2:09:08Having this come in two sizes,
2:09:11that was the best part of the announcement.
2:09:13I'm like, oh, thank God.
2:09:14Because the size of this thing,
2:09:16it's like people have different size wrists.
2:09:18You cannot put something that big,
2:09:19it's not gonna look good on everybody.
2:09:21Having a smaller one,
2:09:22it's hopefully the battery life is reasonable on it,
2:09:25shows they understand there's a limit to the size of,
2:09:29there's basically a limit to the size of the screen
2:09:31you can put on your wrist and not feel ridiculous
2:09:33until the screens get much thinner and much, you know,
2:09:35like the futuristic sort of giant holo band thing
2:09:38that has, you know, we're not there yet, right?
2:09:40So I'm glad that they have a smaller version,
2:09:43but I think the thickness, I mean, I don't know.
2:09:48I'm trying to think, will this be a barrier?
2:09:50Other than me just saying like,
2:09:51I wish they had like, minimized it so it didn't look so bad,
2:09:53I'm wondering if thickness will bother anybody
2:09:55who's interested in a smartwatch.
2:09:57'Cause if you're interested at all on a smartwatch,
2:10:00this one's fine.
2:10:01Like, it looks better than all the other smartwatches
2:10:03I've seen in terms of the details.
2:10:04It is not any more ridiculous than the existing lunchboxes
2:10:08on your wrists that are out there.
2:10:10Maybe the Motorola one has a little bit more panache
2:10:12'cause it's round, sort of, flat, tiring round,
2:10:15but I think the Motorola one looks bigger and more,
2:10:20like I've seen women wearing the Motorola,
2:10:22what is it called, 360 or something?
2:10:23- Yeah.
2:10:24- That their imaginative name, not as good as watch,
2:10:26that's a name, they should come up with a name like that.
2:10:28Anyway, that one I think looks,
2:10:32I think they did an excellent job in their publicity shots
2:10:34of showing real people wearing the watch
2:10:36in a way that it looks normal.
2:10:38And I was just amazed that I'm like,
2:10:39do they Photoshop that?
2:10:40Is that really how the watch looks?
2:10:41'Cause all those beautiful people wearing the watch
2:10:44and those shots of like joggers
2:10:47or the person holding a baby or sit, like all those people,
2:10:50the watches just look normal on their wrist.
2:10:52And it almost made me think like that it had to be fake
2:10:54'cause they did not look like ridiculous smartwatch.
2:10:56And that's what everyone says who puts it on,
2:10:58that they may look huge on Apple's website
2:11:01when it's gigantic floating Airstream trailer
2:11:02coming at you, but on your wrist,
2:11:04it does not look as ridiculous.
2:11:06I still think it looked a little ridiculous
2:11:07on Johnny Ive and Tim.
2:11:08Like sometimes you could see the watch was so heavy
2:11:10that it was like rotating around their wrist, you know,
2:11:12from the weight of the watch
2:11:13was like twisting the band on their arm.
2:11:15And some of the bands, like that big glaring white,
2:11:18like the bands look really thick and chunky too,
2:11:20even, you know, so. - Yeah.
2:11:22- I don't know, I don't,
2:11:23as a fashion accessory,
2:11:26I think they're doing everything they can
2:11:27with the current technology.
2:11:28But I was very surprised by the conventionalness
2:11:33of the design.
2:11:36Yeah, like it was like we were all expecting something radically different from the other ones and it really isn't that radically different from the other ones. It's just better.
2:11:43I didn't think it needed to be radically different. I'm just like it's a design choice.
2:11:46You could they could make like technology wise they could make the thing that I'm envisioning.
2:11:49Still has replaceable straps but like tapered so that like so they're envisioning the time when the difference between the strap and the watch will start to go away.
2:11:57Now we know there is a huge difference in the strap and the watch and Apple has chosen
2:12:01to embrace that difference and say we are not going to mask that difference. We're not going to hide it.
2:12:05we're going to say yes, there's the strap and there's the watch and the watch is actually much thicker than the strap and
2:12:10there's no getting around that and we're going to own up to it and here it is as opposed to a
2:12:15More tapered type solution within the same technology
2:12:19It's like I'm not asking for a giant curved screen that goes around the whole thing or anything crazy like that
2:12:22like I think you know
2:12:23It's just it's just the design choice and that's more of a I'm surprised by a style choice
2:12:29It really shouldn't have been in retrospect in terms of that's the type of style they've you know, they've expressed
2:12:34Interest in before especially Johnny I but like the the flower I Mac and everything like that of letting the base be true itself down
2:12:40The ground letting the thing float in the air. It's just a different direction. They could have gone
2:12:44and I think the rectangular nests also of the screen and
2:12:48the like the fact that the the crown is off-center like there's a lot of the surprising amount of asymmetry for
2:12:55Johnny I've designed don't you think?
2:12:57Yeah, I wanted to quickly go back to a point you made earlier about traditional watches that are sometimes big in a fashion statement
2:13:04And that doesn't really bother me when I see like a Panerai or something that's just really really big
2:13:11And I think the reason is is because we've seen that there are watches
2:13:16You know regular traditional watches that are really really small
2:13:20And so it's obvious to me that when you have a really big watch
2:13:23That's a deliberate choice by that watch manufacturer that they want to make this large because we've seen small ones and they know they exist
2:13:32Conversely, we've never seen a really tiny smartwatch, or whatever we're calling these,
2:13:38and the Apple Watch appears to be big because it's out of necessity.
2:13:44And I think that's why it doesn't look innately good like a Panerai or a Rolex or something
2:13:50like that would.
2:13:51Well, we've seen mock-ups of smartwatches that are small, like the technology doesn't
2:13:55exist for us to do.
2:13:57But most of those mock-ups aren't as usable as Apple's, because the bottom line is you
2:14:01need someplace like I've talked about it on the past shows like if you made one of those
2:14:05mock ups like how the hell would you deal with the screen is it just one like you just swipe like
2:14:10those ones that look like the screen curves halfway around your wrist how would you how
2:14:13would you deal with that would you scroll and flick and like move like the the dial as in like
2:14:17a physical thing that you can you know you know interact with the watch and manipulate what's on
2:14:24the screen without covering what's on the screen in a secure way where you're not going to
2:14:27accidentally start rotating the watch around your wrist or anything like that that is an important
2:14:30feature like those are problems that they're solving not in like ways that no one could
2:14:35have thought of because as many people want it like the blackberry had the various dials
2:14:38and the little balls and stuff like that like this is well trod territory for small devices
2:14:42of how you interact with them without touching the screen but apple is the first one to just
2:14:48i think what's on the screen is just as important like the interface they're choosing to do
2:14:53there the sort of minimal interface it doesn't look like anything like an iphone interface
2:14:56It's entirely new UI with entirely new controls and entirely new and way of interacting with it and all that stuff
2:15:01that is where
2:15:03It's obvious that and and then the physical design of the little dial and everything is where Apple has spent all its time because you like
2:15:09Someone ABC news reporter asked them in one of these exclusive interviews like it's so hard making something when that a lot of people are gonna
2:15:15Have to use but people don't get to use it until you make it
2:15:18I'm like you dummy like they've been using this thing in Apple for like God knows how many years
2:15:23That's all they do is use it just using it and use it like crazy
2:15:25If they seriously, you know, how many protests in there?
2:15:28Like that's all they do is use them. They they're not guessing that this dial situation is gonna work out
2:15:34They've used it for like a year two years
2:15:36God knows how long and and they threw away all the ones that didn't work and this is the best one they can you know
2:15:40So I have faith that they have made good decisions about this because it's not like they rush this out to
2:15:46Brush this out to get into the smartphone market like some other smart watch market like some other companies
2:15:51- I do have one concern about the,
2:15:54well, I have a number of concerns,
2:15:55but one of my concerns was just me personally using it.
2:15:58You know, until this point,
2:16:00if I'm walking down the street
2:16:02or if I'm sitting in the subway
2:16:04or if I'm otherwise in public,
2:16:06you can't know what technology I own unless I have it out.
2:16:11This is always out.
2:16:12- I don't know about that.
2:16:14I think you have a,
2:16:15we can't know what kind of technology you own.
2:16:17Hmm, black t-shirt, jeans, you know.
2:16:20[LAUGHTER]
2:16:22You are not as stealth as you think you are.
2:16:25Right down to the rectangle worn into your pants pockets.
2:16:27That's true.
2:16:28Well--
2:16:28And the BMW M5 that you just got out of.
2:16:30[LAUGHTER]
2:16:32Well, even then, I get that in black, so it's less conspicuous.
2:16:34Oh, yeah.
2:16:35It's totally less conspicuous.
2:16:36You're right.
2:16:36It's a very inconspicuous car with ridiculously huge wheels.
2:16:40An enormous mouth.
2:16:42And yeah, you're totally right, Marco.
2:16:44And additionally, how often do you
2:16:45go walking down the street in Manhattan just whistling
2:16:47and looking about?
2:16:49- When I'm walking around my home next to Wayne Manor.
2:16:52(laughing)
2:16:54Yeah, all right.
2:16:55- Well no, so my concern is partially being mugged
2:17:00and partially being obnoxious.
2:17:03And I'm sure in time this will probably become
2:17:07less of an issue, just like how,
2:17:10I remember when I first got my first Discman,
2:17:14my first portable CD player,
2:17:17my mom advised me not to show it out anytime
2:17:21because people would get mugged for their Discmen.
2:17:24Same problem with every portable electronics thing
2:17:27that became popular and that thieves started learning
2:17:29was valuable.
2:17:31The New York City subway for years was advising people
2:17:34not to use the stock Apple white earbuds
2:17:37because that was a clear signal to anyone around you
2:17:40that you had an expensive Apple device in your pocket.
2:17:43And they were telling you,
2:17:45"Leave it in your pocket, don't take it out."
2:17:48And so I think this is gonna have similar issues as that,
2:17:53where this is going to telegraph to everybody,
2:17:56not only do I have an iPhone in my pocket,
2:17:58'cause this only works with iPhones,
2:18:00but this thing itself is expensive
2:18:02and possibly made of gold and other things.
2:18:04And it's always out there.
2:18:07I mean, you can wear long sleeves maybe,
2:18:09but otherwise, for the most part,
2:18:11this is always gonna be there.
2:18:12And so it both screams mug me,
2:18:15And it also screams, I'm a nerd at first,
2:18:20and maybe over time that will get less,
2:18:22so I hope it does, and I'm sure Apple hopes it does.
2:18:24- It totally will.
2:18:25Remember what it was like to use a smartphone in public
2:18:27when the iPhone first came out?
2:18:28Oh, you have an iPhone?
2:18:29Now nobody cares you have an iPhone,
2:18:31I mean, except for muggers, but like whatever.
2:18:34Worrying about being robbed is kind of silly,
2:18:35'cause you know, whatever.
2:18:36You have nice things, people are gonna wanna steal them,
2:18:39robbery rates have been going down for years,
2:18:41you'll be okay.
2:18:42The embarrassment just among your peers of being that guy.
2:18:46Even like, think of the first person to use a Bluetooth,
2:18:49one of those Bluetooth headphone things,
2:18:50talking to the cell phone,
2:18:51and it looked like you were talking to yourself.
2:18:52People got over that, and that still amazes me.
2:18:54I think people will get over the watch
2:18:56if they sell a lot of them.
2:18:57You just gotta sell a lot of them.
2:18:58Now the weird part, and I tweeted this as well
2:19:01during the thing of like, oh, Apple Watch starts at $349.
2:19:04I said, that's great, that's where Apple Watch starts.
2:19:08Where does Apple Watch end?
2:19:10- That's a good question.
2:19:11and people were continuing to talk.
2:19:13As soon as I put that price up,
2:19:14I asked that question on Twitter,
2:19:15and today people are still talking about it.
2:19:16So what do you guys think?
2:19:18If you bought the most expensive Apple Watch,
2:19:22how much would it cost you?
2:19:23- So we're talking about the edition edition.
2:19:26- Oh, you assume that's gonna be the most expensive,
2:19:28but anyway, just what's the number?
2:19:30It starts at 350, where does it stop?
2:19:32- I have a hard time seeing them going above 1,000
2:19:36for the watch itself.
2:19:37I mean, we'll see what the band,
2:19:39some of the bands will be premium,
2:19:40some of them will be more pedestrianly priced.
2:19:43I'm guessing if you get the edition edition
2:19:48and get some kind of reasonable band for it,
2:19:50I'm guessing you're spending over 1,000,
2:19:52but not by a whole lot.
2:19:53- Oh, that's the question.
2:19:54We don't even know if the band is separate.
2:19:55Like when they said it starts at 349,
2:19:58I assume that gets you a watch and a band, right?
2:20:01- I would bet not, but we'll see.
2:20:02Or maybe it gets you the really crappy nylon band
2:20:05or whatever, and then it's like to get anything good,
2:20:06you gotta spend another 100 bucks or whatever on the band.
2:20:09Who knows, we'll see.
2:20:11It would not surprise me to see the gold ones cross 1,000,
2:20:15but it would surprise me to see them go very far past it.
2:20:18- Casey?
2:20:19- I think with watch and ban together,
2:20:22you're gonna look at between one and 2,000
2:20:24for anything that Apple offers.
2:20:26- For the top end one, you mean?
2:20:27- Mm-hmm.
2:20:28- Yeah, we're not talking about aftermarket.
2:20:30Obviously, someone's gonna buy this,
2:20:31put diamonds all over it, do silly things like that.
2:20:33So on Twitter, Dr. Wave was asking
2:20:37if it was gonna be over 1,000.
2:20:38said gotta be definitely certainly over a thousand that's yeah that's a gimme
2:20:42the question is how far above a thousand the thing I don't know about is what
2:20:47kind of I don't know how much like just the cost of the gold on the gold ones is
2:20:52like I don't do the math to figure out like the plating and all the other just
2:20:55so like just just getting down to brass tacks of like what are the parts here
2:20:59because once you start using precious metals like even before you consider
2:21:02markup there's some minimum amount that it's gonna go so I really have no idea
2:21:05that but I say definitely over a thousand. 2000 I think if you bought the
2:21:12best watch in all the bands you could break 2000 but but one watch in one band
2:21:16I do not expect it to be over 2000 but I admit fully admit that I have no idea
2:21:21how much jewelry costs or gold costs or anything about that so and here's the
2:21:25thing here's what it gets down to though is like luxury items like jewelry or not
2:21:30just really but like you know fancy watches are not priced based on the
2:21:33Materials put into them that's like when you pay 30 grand for a watch
2:21:36There's not 30 grand worth of material or labor in that right the price is wholly
2:21:40Disconnected from the parts the labor or any other part of it is just it's just the price has to do with
2:21:46It's not I mean even Ferrari's a closer connection between the parts the labor and the price of them because they use expensive exotic
2:21:53Materials and a lot of labor to put them together
2:21:56There is a closer connection between that, but the watch is just totally nonsensical. I mean
2:22:01Anything with fashion like that dress does not cost you know
2:22:04$20,000 just doesn't period right you're paying for something else, and I do not feel like Apple is
2:22:11Going to price any of its products nor has it really ever priced any of his product that
2:22:16Disconnected from the parts and labor that go into it. They're gonna have big margins sometimes the margins are ridiculous
2:22:22Like they were on the 20th anniversary Mac or even the Mac 2 FX
2:22:25Which was like like 13 grand in today's money or something like that
2:22:29But maybe it's like you know, what is the base will put it another way?
2:22:33What is the margin that Apple would feel too embarrassed to put on its product 200% markup 500 a thousand?
2:22:40I don't think they're going to go
2:22:42they're gonna go much over $2,000 if
2:22:45Really they could sell the watch at a thousand or fifteen hundred and have like, you know
2:22:51The best margins of any product they ever sold for sure
2:22:55but not the kind of margins like on a 50 grand Rolex.
2:22:58Like I just don't see that.
2:23:00- Yeah, I mean, I think the edition,
2:23:04like the gold, that could be crazy.
2:23:06But okay, so we already know the starting point, 350.
2:23:09Even if we assume that's for only the small one
2:23:12and with no band included,
2:23:14I'm guessing most people who own this thing
2:23:17probably aren't going over a total of five or 600.
2:23:21Like I'm guessing most of the ones that actually get sold
2:23:24are gonna be in like that $500 total range
2:23:26of watch plus band.
2:23:27Most people are probably not gonna have multiple bands
2:23:30or multiple watches.
2:23:31And this is the kind of thing I would expect
2:23:34that you don't replace as often as you replace a phone
2:23:38or even an iPad.
2:23:39- I think the average selling price might be similar
2:23:41to the phone price.
2:23:42Not the phone that people pay price,
2:23:44but like the real price.
2:23:46What is the iPhone 5S?
2:23:47It's like $600, $700 to Apple when they sell one of those?
2:23:53Yeah, it's almost 650, yeah.
2:23:54Yeah.
2:23:55That seems about right for-- which is crazy to think about.
2:23:58It's like, oh, the watch is going to be cheaper.
2:24:00Like, it seems like another product that, revenue-wise,
2:24:04if they sold as many of them as they sell phones,
2:24:06could have a similar impact.
2:24:07Because that's-- for the first generation,
2:24:10kind of like how the first iPhones
2:24:11had that ridiculous price and then came down or whatever.
2:24:14But I think you could be right about that.
2:24:16So one thing I'm curious about is,
2:24:18will there be different capacities?
2:24:20What do you mean capacities?
2:24:21- Yeah, so let's talk about the software side of this,
2:24:23'cause I think that's very interesting.
2:24:25- Yeah, because, was it Kevin Lynch who did the demo?
2:24:27Is that, did I get the name right?
2:24:29- Yep, Adobe guy, who would've said,
2:24:30"What is that guy from Adobe working on?
2:24:32"Now you know."
2:24:34- He had said, and I tried to get a verbatim quote,
2:24:37but it may not be perfect,
2:24:39"The music that's stored right here on your Apple Watch,"
2:24:43when he was talking about playing music,
2:24:45which implies to me that there is some amount
2:24:48of traditional style flash capacity,
2:24:52and then that makes me wonder,
2:24:53will there be, like the iPhone and like the iPad,
2:24:56different tiers of capacities?
2:24:58- Yeah, so the iPhone doesn't tell you how much RAM it's in,
2:25:01the iWatch doesn't tell you how much flash.
2:25:03The flash storage is adequate.
2:25:06What car maker is it?
2:25:06(laughing)
2:25:07- That's Rolls, isn't it?
2:25:08- There you go.
2:25:09- Even I knew that one.
2:25:10Finally, a reference all three of us knew.
2:25:12- Everyone gets it and no one in the audience got it.
2:25:14- Nope, not at all.
2:25:15- Of course.
2:25:16I think we're gonna learn more about this
2:25:20over the coming months.
2:25:20Presumably they're gonna launch an SDK,
2:25:22I would guess probably January.
2:25:24Based on what they've said,
2:25:26the way they describe how the software works,
2:25:27some of the little wording they've used here and there
2:25:29in the keynote that I've heard back and everything else,
2:25:33I think the most likely arrangement here
2:25:35is that the apps mostly run on the phone
2:25:39and the apps that run on the watch
2:25:40are extensions of phone apps.
2:25:42They're like the iOS 8 extensions.
2:25:44- Yeah, that's just a packaging detail.
2:25:45like the bottom line is you're transferring binaries
2:25:48to the watch by way of the phone,
2:25:50by way of the app store in a bundle.
2:25:51They get on there, they have to be stored somewhere.
2:25:53- Right, and if you want to like add or delete apps,
2:25:56you probably do that from the phone.
2:25:58You know, it's probably just like
2:25:59every other iOS 8 extension.
2:26:01- Quick aside, what did you think of the
2:26:02quote unquote springboard?
2:26:04- I loved it, I thought it was great.
2:26:06- It seems to me to be not too easy to use
2:26:10in so far as all those tap targets looked really small.
2:26:14- Well that's why you got the little zoomy thing.
2:26:16Digital crown.
2:26:17- Again, I highly recommend doing the paper printout
2:26:20because when you see this, even on the biggest,
2:26:24even on the big screen one, quote big,
2:26:26it is such a small area.
2:26:27I think it's gonna be challenging.
2:26:29And I think it's the kind of thing where
2:26:31we're not gonna know how easy or hard it is
2:26:33until we actually try to use one
2:26:35because it's gonna be very hard to predict.
2:26:37- But that's why they do the magnifying effect.
2:26:38Like the whole, I like, first of all,
2:26:40I just like the aesthetic, right?
2:26:41All I see is the little circles nestled onto each other.
2:26:43But they're nestled into each other and the little ones that are in the outer gaps
2:26:47magnify when they come towards the middle. So it's kind of like they're trying to give you big touch targets near the center of the
2:26:52thing and then you just sort of slide around until what you want to tap is near the center and then as the maximum size and
2:26:57yeah, it does look small, but you can use them but like I think most that well
2:27:02they're also trying to give you a shortcut so things you commonly do. Side button gives you the people's faces,
2:27:05replying or you know if something comes in a notification
2:27:08you got the dial to pick what you want to do with it. Any sort of dialogue if you want to call them
2:27:12that is three giant buttons to take up a third of the screen
2:27:14each. So I don't think people are going to spend a lot of time
2:27:17trying to hunt and peck little dots on that home screen.
2:27:20I think obviously these are these are extensions, they I'm
2:27:23sure they've run natively on the watch. Like it's probably like,
2:27:26you know, binary compiled for the watch. But it's using the
2:27:29extension mechanism to communicate back with the phone.
2:27:32Well, it's not the extension mechanism is just a matter of
2:27:34packaging communicating back to the phone. That's the that's the
2:27:37question like because I
2:27:38there's the shared data containers and everything.
2:27:40There's there's some weirdness going on there. But well, they
2:27:42- They can't have a shared data container
2:27:43when they're running on a different device, right?
2:27:45- Right, so how do they communicate?
2:27:46- Right, so that's the question,
2:27:47because I don't think you can do a handoff style
2:27:49open a stream between the things.
2:27:50So I think the phone has to be an island
2:27:53in the same way that the entire iPhone used to be an island,
2:27:55where it's like, you don't get to do anything
2:27:56in the background.
2:27:57If you want to do anything with push notifications,
2:28:01there's one push notification service,
2:28:02and we will dole out your things to you,
2:28:03and that's not even, you know,
2:28:04like it's gonna be incredible isolation.
2:28:07Like the number of interactions with the phone,
2:28:09what initiates them, and how long they'll last,
2:28:11expect to be severely constrained so yeah because battery life is going to be brutal so they cannot
2:28:16have like oh it's just like handoff you can just open up a screen and have an NS stream between
2:28:20these two things and just talk you'll destroy the the the watch's battery that way so i expect some
2:28:25kind of regimented structured way that this is the straw through which you have to sip this is
2:28:30how many times you get to sip to communicate with the phone and then it will gradually open up just
2:28:34like you know background tasks and everything have on the on main devices yeah something i was
2:28:39wondering about as well is I could swear during the presentation there was a lot of talk of
2:28:43communicating via your phone's Wi-Fi and maybe that was, maybe I'm misconstruing that, but I
2:28:50wonder if, I don't remember the term, but the thing on a Mac or on a phone where you have two
2:28:57simultaneous connections going, one to the quote unquote house Wi-Fi and one for like AirDrop,
2:29:03Perhaps the watch will use that for, you know, doing a burst data transfer for
2:29:09bigger things. Like, for example, if it's uploading a binary or something like that.
2:29:13I mean, I would presume it uses Bluetooth low energy as much as possible, but perhaps
2:29:17does this like Airplay-esque sort of dual Wi-Fi thing to transfer anything big?
2:29:23Oh yeah. Does that like, I fully expect that the watch will only be communicating with your phone.
2:29:28It will not be communicating with your house's Wi-Fi, even though the watch may have be Wi-Fi
2:29:33capable in terms of like radio frequencies and stuff that it would totally do airdrop style ad hoc to your phone and
2:29:38Only then when it needs that bandwidth and it can't get by with Bluetooth
2:29:41Santa key just said Wi-Fi is confirmed. I'd love to is there do we have a source on that?
2:29:46Oh, I guess Apple PR says it's saying it has Wi-Fi
2:29:48Very much the last show where we talked about the little SD card or the iFi that goes into your
2:29:55Camera and has you know and draws all its power from your SD card slot and yet has Wi-Fi then it talks to your computer
2:30:02and everything like that. Like, I think they can get away with it, especially since I don't
2:30:06think like they're not going to give us a number for talk time on on even though even
2:30:11though the watch has a microphone, they don't expect you to be going on three hour phone
2:30:15calls. And that just because it's probably awkward to hold your wrist up to it. Like
2:30:18they expect you to fire off responses to text, send messages to people, do quick calls like
2:30:23that. You know, like, I don't think they expect it to be sustained streaming audio and, you
2:30:29certainly not video at this point, it's not even a camera on the watch, although you can go in the
2:30:34other direction, right? But all of those things are not going to be good for battery and so it
2:30:39seems like the whole idea with the watch is, you know, sort of on the go, pick up things,
2:30:45looking at notifications, doing small things, and I think that's necessary for battery life. And
2:30:49I guess we'll see for convenience, like does it feel weird to hold your wrist up? Can you
2:30:54actually sustain a long conversation by talking into your wrist or does that just never
2:30:58feel right, you know.
2:31:01- Also, a real-time follow-up,
2:31:02it does indeed confirm to have Wi-Fi only BG,
2:31:05which is interesting, but it does have Wi-Fi
2:31:07according to the Apple press release.
2:31:08- Yeah, you wouldn't think it would need AC
2:31:10'cause it's only got, the rumor for the storage
2:31:12is like eight gig or something, I saw,
2:31:13go by in the chat room.
2:31:14But that's the interesting, so that S1 thing,
2:31:16which is, what a great, you know,
2:31:18we've got a bunch of stuff in here,
2:31:19it's all encased in the thing for water resistance,
2:31:21we're just gonna call the whole thing S1.
2:31:23We have no idea what's in there, but you would assume,
2:31:26first of all, we all assume it's an ARM chip,
2:31:28even though they didn't say, right?
2:31:30Is it like an old Apple,
2:31:33sort of like we took the CPU core from the A4
2:31:35and did it at 20 nanometers and put it like,
2:31:39the thing that impressed me most about little demos
2:31:40is that there's obviously a powerful enough GPU in there
2:31:43to do those particle effects
2:31:44and to do them in a way that's energy efficient,
2:31:46because like when you draw those little doodles,
2:31:48they wipe away with the particle effect.
2:31:49Like that's all OpenGL stuff,
2:31:50or not OpenGL, it's probably metal, right?
2:31:52Silly, but anyway, same thing.
2:31:53Like those flourishes mean they feel like that is okay to do power wise which means that it doesn't just have a reasonable CPU in there
2:32:02But it's got a GPU that it meets some minimum standard granted the screen is super tiny. It doesn't need to push a lot of pixels
2:32:07But that makes me really wonder what is inside that s1 if it's like a cut down GPU from it for
2:32:14An iPhone 4 and a cut down CPU made it a smaller process
2:32:17This is an entirely new chip that has nothing to do with any Apple a whatever chip that has ever been made
2:32:23I'm really curious about the architectural details of what they could show into a watch.
2:32:26I think it's also worth thinking about like, you know, how how does that like, you know,
2:32:32the the flash guy mentioned about, you know, you can play music directly stored on it.
2:32:36How much does it work without an iPhone? So I'm guessing one of the reasons it has Wi Fi is
2:32:42because that way it can work with handoff properly within your house. Like if it if it only has
2:32:49Bluetooth that means if your phone is more than you know 15 20 feet away
2:32:54In most places it loses the connection
2:32:57So if your phone is like in your bag and you're up walking around your house somewhere or your office somewhere and your phone's back
2:33:02At your desk, you know, that's gonna be a problem. Well, but you can hand off to your Mac
2:33:05I would imagine you come up to your Mac with the thing and handoff works as a combination of Bluetooth and Wi-Fi
2:33:10So that's why I'm guessing that's why handoff it or that's why Wi-Fi is there
2:33:16So and also like what do you think?
2:33:19Like I'm I'm guessing that if you are totally gone from your iPhone
2:33:24Let's say you go out on a jog around the around your neighborhood. You leave your iPhone at home. You leave the watch on
2:33:29Right, that's obviously a situation they're considering because they're focusing so much on on fitness stuff
2:33:34And I'm sure they know that not everybody brings their iPhone on a jog
2:33:38so
2:33:40I'm guessing it can work in a limited mode totally disconnected and it can probably it probably works like an iPod
2:33:46where it can probably play a limited amount of music,
2:33:49whatever it has stored on it.
2:33:50That's why it can store music on it,
2:33:51is for exercise reasons.
2:33:53And as you're out, it basically becomes an iPod Nano
2:33:57with a watch.
2:33:58- Yeah.
2:33:59- And then, although there's no headphone port,
2:34:00so you're only doing Bluetooth headphones,
2:34:01which is gonna kill the battery,
2:34:03but that's another story.
2:34:05But that's what I'm guessing.
2:34:07I'm guessing third-party apps probably can't do anything
2:34:10in that mode, or very little.
2:34:12- I bet they can do something.
2:34:13I mean, what would they even wanna do?
2:34:16is if you don't have any communications
2:34:17to the outside world, maybe you could provide visualizations
2:34:21of information being picked up by the M8 or whatever,
2:34:23the little, you know, something like,
2:34:25something fitness related to make a better lap counter,
2:34:28like all the type of things that you might want to watch
2:34:30to do when you're on a run or something, or walking,
2:34:32or even just like a compass app.
2:34:33Can't do GPS 'cause it doesn't have,
2:34:36I don't think you can do, it doesn't,
2:34:37do we know if it has GPS?
2:34:38I assume it doesn't, just for power reasons.
2:34:41- They said in the keynote,
2:34:42they said something like that it can use the GPS
2:34:46from your iPhone, which I'm pretty sure
2:34:48is pretty clearly saying it does not have its own GPS.
2:34:50- Yeah, we're gonna have to wait many more years
2:34:53before they can jam more crap into here,
2:34:54but I assume if we go five years in the future,
2:34:57this thing might actually have GPS,
2:34:58it might actually have a camera, it might be thinner,
2:35:01we just gotta wait for technology to catch up
2:35:03for them to stick more of this stuff in there,
2:35:04but for now, this is definitely,
2:35:06they snuck it in early in the keynote
2:35:09and then emphasized it more later,
2:35:11this needs to go with your iPhone,
2:35:12which I think is fine for this product in the beginning,
2:35:14is who's going to buy a really expensive, fancy smartwatch.
2:35:18They probably already have an iPhone anyway.
2:35:20Well, and that's the thing.
2:35:22If this does take off as a fashion item,
2:35:25that's going to drive iPhone sales.
2:35:27Because there's going to be some people out there
2:35:29who have an Android phone who see this and want this.
2:35:31Yeah.
2:35:32Until and unless there can be an Android equivalent to this--
2:35:35I know there's tons of Android smartwatches or whatever,
2:35:38but I don't think any of them have
2:35:39executed fashion-wise to the caliber
2:35:42that this thing appears to be.
2:35:43So if someone wants it as a fashion accessory,
2:35:46they don't actually have a good Android-based alternative
2:35:50that I think lives up to the fashion standards
2:35:52set by this phone in terms of fit and finish,
2:35:54and probably cache because of the popularity
2:35:57of it and everything.
2:35:58- And I think also it would,
2:36:00I think it would probably be unlikely
2:36:02to see something like this from the Android camp
2:36:04anytime soon.
2:36:05- Well, I'm sure we'll have some sort of
2:36:07awful knockoff really quickly.
2:36:08- Well, no, I'm saying, I'm like,
2:36:10it's unlikely that we're gonna see
2:36:12anyone else besides Apple make one that is this desirable
2:36:16and cool in the fashion sense?
2:36:18Like most people are not gonna be like,
2:36:20oh I can't wait to get my, you know,
2:36:22to wrap one of the new Motorola,
2:36:24whatever is around my wrist.
2:36:25- No, Samsung will make one that looks exactly identical.
2:36:28So there's that going for it.
2:36:29- Well one thing also, like if you've been reading
2:36:32some of the tweets from people who know more
2:36:34about manufacturing than we do,
2:36:36some of the really basic traits of this
2:36:38are just really hard to manufacture.
2:36:40Like Apple can do it because they are so advanced
2:36:42in that field.
2:36:43They have such advanced manufacturing techniques
2:36:45and so much power and margin to use them.
2:36:47Whereas not everybody has that.
2:36:50And like somebody was saying, even just like the design
2:36:54of the crown, it requires some insane lathe
2:36:58to make the little things and make everything right.
2:37:01And even like the design of the latches that'll latch
2:37:04onto the band and how even those are hard to make
2:37:07in that specific shape and with that kind of precision
2:37:09everything. Regular people don't make those distinctions though. Like the
2:37:13Samsung phones are not made to the same fit and finish that Apple phones are, but
2:37:16most people don't notice. But high-end watch nerds certainly will, but I
2:37:20don't know, I really don't know how this watch will be reacted to by a high-end
2:37:23watch nerd. Yes, I haven't read that article that's been going around today
2:37:25about the high-end watch nerd talking about the Apple Watch, just haven't gotten
2:37:28around to it. We'll put it in the show notes so you guys can read it
2:37:31maybe before I do. Okay, so we should probably try to wrap this sometime
2:37:37before Friday. One of the things I wanted to quickly touch on is the kind of interactive
2:37:44and what are they, intimate was the word they used, which I don't know about that, but the
2:37:49interactive bits that you can do with the watch. So when you can like draw little doodles and you
2:37:54can do the heartbeat thing, which I think that's more creepy than not, but I'm not really sure.
2:38:02But what I just noticed, which I don't recall them saying during the keynote, is that this is a full-on
2:38:08Dick Tracy watch because it has a walkie-talkie on it. And I'm reading from Apple's website,
2:38:13"For a fun alternative to a phone call, use the built-in speaker and microphone to trade spur-of-the-moment
2:38:19sound bites with friends." I wonder if it really is a walkie-talkie. Like, again, getting back to
2:38:23Marco saying, "No phone. Take all the phones out. Two people with iWatches. Can they walkie-talkie
2:38:27with Apple watches? Sorry. Can they walkie-talkie to each other?" I can't imagine that being the
2:38:32the case because they could do ad hoc Wi-Fi between the watches or something
2:38:35and it worked as well as airdrop anyway that's like that was the throwing stuff
2:38:43against the wall part of the keynote to like oh and it does this and it does
2:38:46that and who knows maybe these things will be useful lots of you know try it
2:38:50to see are is there usefulness hampered by the fact that they have to be tied to
2:38:54the phone and if I have the phone what I would have just use it to text the
2:38:57person because you're not doing text input on the you know right the watch
2:39:00and everything so we'll see. Here's a really basic question. This thing is
2:39:04supposedly slightly water resistant right? Yep. I mean I would assume like a
2:39:08mass market watch has to be somewhat water resistant so you can like you know if
2:39:11you're like washing the dishes and it gets splashed. It's splash
2:39:14resistant but it cannot immerse it. The charging thing on the back and the
2:39:18general sealed nature of this thing looks like it is right where you would
2:39:23expect a fancy watch to be and that it's like okay it's not a waterproof watch
2:39:28but we'll do our best to keep water out of the thing.
2:39:31- To go back to the experience,
2:39:33the digital crown seemed like a clever idea
2:39:36to solve this problem,
2:39:37which we talked about a little bit earlier.
2:39:38What didn't make sense to me, having never touched one,
2:39:42was why is the home button pressing the crown?
2:39:45It seemed to me to be much more logical
2:39:47that pressing the crown is like okay,
2:39:50and pressing that big, huge button below the crown
2:39:54is the home button.
2:39:55- This is like mute and rotation lock all over again.
2:39:58I'm sure the Apple Canon will change its nine.
2:40:00Like the thing that baffles me
2:40:01is so much about the digital crown is like,
2:40:03that would have been the logical place
2:40:04to try to cram touch ID, but I guess it's too small.
2:40:07Like there's no touch ID on this thing.
2:40:08- Well, but it's never leaving your person ever in theory.
2:40:11- I know, but like if you're gonna pay with it,
2:40:13like when you pay with the phone,
2:40:14you have to touch ID authenticate,
2:40:15but when you pay with the watch, you don't?
2:40:18I don't.
2:40:18- Yes, somebody was saying how like it'll,
2:40:20like it'll use the skin sensor on the bottom
2:40:22to like see if it's still attached to you or whatever.
2:40:24But that sounds, that might change, we'll see.
2:40:27- Yeah, that could be, we don't know
2:40:28how that authentication works and yeah.
2:40:30It's kind of like they could take it off your wrist
2:40:32if they could replace the little,
2:40:34I was gonna do an Indiana Jones reference, but anyway.
2:40:37- I've seen those movies.
2:40:39- Yeah, I think it, you know when he replaces the idol
2:40:41with the sandbag, like are you gonna take the wrist,
2:40:43the watch off the wrist, but you have to make it think
2:40:45it's still up against skin or whatever.
2:40:47- Yeah, I thought it was interesting too,
2:40:49like Casey, I think your point is very valid
2:40:50about how I think clicking the wheel should be okay.
2:40:55And I think they only have two buttons on this watch.
2:40:59So obviously this is at an extreme premium,
2:41:02similar to the iPhone, there's only two buttons.
2:41:05I think it's interesting that the second button,
2:41:07rather than being home, the second button is like,
2:41:11bring up your list of friends.
2:41:12It shows you where their focus is.
2:41:16Their focus is on making this a very social device,
2:41:19as opposed to show me more notifications
2:41:22or go launch threes.
2:41:25Like this is very much like,
2:41:27this is meant to be a very social device.
2:41:30And honestly, one part of that
2:41:31I thought was a little bit weird is like,
2:41:34I'm probably only gonna have my wife on that list,
2:41:37first of all.
2:41:38Like, I don't think I wanna see anyone else's heartbeat.
2:41:40- You can leave a solitary life,
2:41:42but other people who are going amongst,
2:41:44like think of a teenager who's got all their friends
2:41:47are gonna be on there, right?
2:41:48If you have teenagers, rich teenagers, fine.
2:41:50- Yeah, right.
2:41:51Their friends are gonna hate them for having an iWatch.
2:41:53It's interesting with the social aspects of it
2:41:55because I agree that's something you want to use it for,
2:41:57but there's no text input.
2:41:58And so that's why they have like the animated emoji
2:42:01and the little drawings.
2:42:02They want you to use this thing to sort of quickly
2:42:04communicate with people,
2:42:05with the tapping and all that other stuff.
2:42:06They want you to use it for that,
2:42:08but they know how much people love texting.
2:42:09It's like, well, you can't text in this.
2:42:11We're not going to throw up a little keyboard.
2:42:12You can probably do, you can do dictation.
2:42:14You can talk to Siri,
2:42:16but what can you do without doing any of that stuff?
2:42:18Well, you can draw little pictures,
2:42:19which I think is clever.
2:42:20You can do the little tapping,
2:42:22The little animated emoji is like fun.
2:42:24They're trying to say, we want you to communicate
2:42:28in ways other than typing to each other.
2:42:30And thus far the world has said,
2:42:31we want to text each other like crazy.
2:42:32So this will be an interesting challenge to see
2:42:35if they can convince the world
2:42:37to use these alternate means of communication
2:42:41for more than just, hey, I just got an iWatch,
2:42:42just play with all these novelty things
2:42:43and then get bored of it.
2:42:45- You know, the first thing I thought of
2:42:46when I saw the like tap feature,
2:42:49so you can just like tap on it
2:42:51and you can do it many times in a row or just once.
2:42:54Immediately I thought of Journey
2:42:56and inventing your own little language.
2:42:58- I thought you were gonna say the Yo app.
2:43:00I tweeted the Apple Watch and the Yo app built in
2:43:02because that's basically like, it is like you want to,
2:43:05what is tapping do?
2:43:06Like you just wanna get someone's attention like,
2:43:07"Hey, hey," and a little tap on their wrist, right?
2:43:10And the Journey thing is like communicating with glyphs.
2:43:12A lot of people said that,
2:43:13but the key of the glyphs in Journey
2:43:16is that you don't get to pick what yours is.
2:43:18Whereas with the little drawing pictures
2:43:20and making little language within each other,
2:43:23as many, many people, including me, tweeted,
2:43:25this is an opportunity for them to let
2:43:28a million rudimentary drawings of penises bloom,
2:43:30because that's all people are gonna draw on this thing,
2:43:32is send each other little tiny, terrible fallacies
2:43:35that they drew with their finger on their phone.
2:43:37- Naturally. - Or on their watch.
2:43:39I wonder, maybe we can bring back graffiti.
2:43:41- Oh, that's interesting.
2:43:43- Yeah, they didn't bring that up,
2:43:44but it's got, like, they just totally did not want you
2:43:46to do text input on this thing,
2:43:48like, unless you're talking to Siri, like, that's it.
2:43:49They do not want you to draw letters.
2:43:51They don't want you to type letters.
2:43:52Like, how would you feel about manipulating
2:43:54a little 3D happy face and then sending that to somebody?
2:43:56Does that make you feel good?
2:43:58How about a hand that you can pose in different positions?
2:44:00No, it won't make a middle finger.
2:44:01Maybe a third party app will do that for you.
2:44:03- Which, by the way, I did see somebody
2:44:05with a square or rectangular shaped Android watch
2:44:09just a few weeks ago trying to type out
2:44:10like a text message on it,
2:44:11and it looked absolutely ridiculous.
2:44:13- No, no, it's not good.
2:44:15- All right, anything else on the watch?
2:44:17- Well, there's a, I mean, I think we should save
2:44:19for next week, questions such as why,
2:44:22which is a good question, I think.
2:44:24- I agree.
2:44:25- It has been foretold, that's why.
2:44:27- Yeah. (laughs)
2:44:29- So it is written, so let it be, I mangled that quote.
2:44:31Does anyone know that quote?
2:44:32You two don't know it, forget it.
2:44:33- Nope. - No.
2:44:34You knew that before you even asked.
2:44:36All right, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.
2:44:39For, they probably didn't even listen to the whole thing.
2:44:42Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.
2:44:44- Hover.
2:44:45- Warby Parker and Squarespace.
2:44:48and we will see you next week.
2:44:49(upbeat music)
2:44:52♪ Now the show is over ♪
2:44:54♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪
2:44:57♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
2:44:59♪ Accidental ♪
2:45:00♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪
2:45:01♪ Accidental ♪
2:45:03♪ John didn't do any research ♪
2:45:05♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪
2:45:08♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
2:45:09♪ Accidental ♪
2:45:10♪ It was accidental ♪
2:45:12♪ Accidental ♪
2:45:13♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm ♪
2:45:18And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S
2:45:27So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M E-N-T Marco Arment
2:45:34S-I-R-A-C USA, Syracuse
2:45:39It's accidental (It's accidental)
2:45:42They didn't mean to (accidental)
2:45:46An accidental tech podcast for so long
2:45:52I think people who listen to this will be disappointed that you two didn't try to make me feel bad about not going but I
2:45:57Think you both correctly understood that nothing that happened during this event changes any of the things they went into me not going
2:46:04Although I will say when that stream kept cutting out on TV
2:46:09We're like we were like I bet Syracuse was kicking him kicking himself now
2:46:12Oh, we didn't have to say anything because the internet was attacking you and it was wonderful
2:46:17I know but like but see first of all
2:46:19Like I said, I didn't I always had one stream that was working
2:46:21Sometimes it was an SD which is kind of disappointing but it totally evened out by the time the watch got there
2:46:26So the streaming wasn't fine
2:46:27But none of that makes up and I can't tell you that what did I feel after the event was over?
2:46:32Relief that I didn't now have to fly home
2:46:34You could have had like the hands-on area. You could have told us more about the watch. No, like I totally I am
2:46:41Totally not disappointed. I'm not disappointed. They didn't get to see you - I don't really care like it's just everything
2:46:46I mean, I'm disappointed.
2:46:48I was disappointed they didn't get to see my friends
2:46:50who went to the thing,
2:46:51but I totally do not regret my decision.
2:46:54I made the right one.
2:46:54There's pretty much almost nothing they could have done.
2:46:58Here's what they could have done.
2:46:59If they gave everyone in the audience a Mac Pro,
2:47:00I would have regretted not going.
2:47:01- HFS Plus, dead.
2:47:03- No, I would not have regretted not being there for that.
2:47:04It's like, unless there's something I could have gotten
2:47:07by being there, whether it's an experience
2:47:10or like an actual thing or something like that,
2:47:13and looking at the iWatches,
2:47:15I guess it's like the fifth time I've said it.
2:47:17Sorry guys.
2:47:17Looking at the Apple Watches and everything,
2:47:19I'll see them eventually.
2:47:20I'm not like, it's not,
2:47:21like this is exactly what I thought the event was gonna be.
2:47:23New iPhones and the watch and I guess the payment stuff.
2:47:27Yeah, it's fine.
2:47:28- The best thing was when U2 comes out,
2:47:30'cause don't you like U2 a lot?
2:47:32- Yeah, but not like, I mean,
2:47:34you're gonna say only the earlier stuff.
2:47:36- Yeah. (laughs)
2:47:37- I used to follow them a lot more than I do.
2:47:41Now they're kind of an aging band,
2:47:43the musical style they've been doing lately is not particularly to my tastes in their in the grand
2:47:49scheme of things. I was glad I got the album for free. I mean, I probably would have bought that
2:47:53album anyway. I still buy the albums when they come out. But I think you were better off like
2:47:58anybody who likes you too. When they first started playing, I was like, Oh man, Syracuse is gonna
2:48:03hate that he missed this. Then after they played and they were still on stage and Tim Cook comes
2:48:08back out and does that horribly awkward skit with them.
2:48:10Oh, so bad.
2:48:12I think anybody who likes either you two or Tim Cook or Apple or anything good in the
2:48:18world is better off not having seen that.
2:48:21I think Bono did pretty well considering this is not his job.
2:48:25Like he doesn't know how to come up and like he thinks they have to say we're going to
2:48:28do this thing and like, you know, Tim Cook was more embarrassing because like he seems
2:48:32a little silly and starstruck and red faced and flustered and it's like,
2:48:36Well, in the the finger touch was just the icing on the awkward cake.
2:48:42Yeah, when I rewatched the thing, I did not watch that part again because it's not.
2:48:46It's a little bit too painful. And everyone who was there said YouTube was way too loud.
2:48:50So we actually got a better experience of that not being there either. I didn't like that song
2:48:54I played though. Yeah, I think I'm going to treat it like most Apple events where they have a
2:48:58closing band where the music is the end of the event. Like that's it. Like that's like usually
2:49:04when the musical guest starts playing all the live blogs stop and they say all right that's it
2:49:08we're we'll see you later nothing's gonna happen after this if you two well even then i was gonna
2:49:13say if you two was in like the press area afterwards mingling and i could have hung out with them but
2:49:17really that's not gonna happen either so it's too many what if you if you could if you saw you know
2:49:23the edge you said that like you said it like butthead the edge
2:49:32- Yeah, what would you ask in a setting like that?
2:49:37Like, do you have like a prepared questions?
2:49:39- Yeah, you can't.
2:49:39Like in a setting like that, you can't.
2:49:41Like people are just like, you know,
2:49:43they'd have to come over for a nice dinner.
2:49:44We would chat.
2:49:45[ Silence ]