0:00:00I fixed something today.
0:00:02- I mended something!
0:00:04I don't know if you'll get that reference.
0:00:06It's a Jeremy Clarkson thing.
0:00:08- Oh, okay.
0:00:09- Anyway, carry on, what did you fix?
0:00:11- It took three weeks,
0:00:13but I have fixed my stupid Dyson vacuum broken trigger.
0:00:16- I was not aware that you had a Dyson vacuum
0:00:18with a broken trigger.
0:00:20- Long story short, yes I use Dyson vacuums,
0:00:23of course I do.
0:00:23Years ago when it came time to buy a new vacuum,
0:00:28I did all the research and I looked at the specs
0:00:31and I'm like, I got this giant upright Miele vacuum
0:00:35that has like massive suction power
0:00:37and is amazing to pull out all sorts of crap from rugs.
0:00:41But it's super heavy and corded
0:00:43and therefore I hardly ever use it.
0:00:45Meanwhile, one year TIFF requested one of these little
0:00:47like cordless Dyson thingies,
0:00:49like the V7 or eight or nine or whatever it was back then.
0:00:53- Which by the way must have incredible profit margins
0:00:55because they are so expensive, I also have one.
0:00:58- Oh, and before we go any further,
0:01:00so we have one of the, not OG, but an older corded,
0:01:05upright Dyson vacuum with the ball on the bottom.
0:01:08I remember we got it from like, I don't know, Woot.com,
0:01:12it was considerably discounted
0:01:15and I gotta say I'm not that impressed with it.
0:01:16So do you like the cordless one?
0:01:18Because the corded, I did not think was that great.
0:01:20- I also had an upright one
0:01:22and I didn't like it and ditched it,
0:01:23but the cordless one, I feel like comes closer
0:01:28to justifying its insane price.
0:01:29- Yeah, so I actually had that exact same
0:01:31heavily discounted Dyson standup ball one
0:01:34from a million years ago.
0:01:35It eventually broke in some way
0:01:37that I didn't feel that it was worth fixing.
0:01:39Although I actually did fix it a couple of times
0:01:42along the way there because one of the positives
0:01:44about Dyson is that while they're not the best built things
0:01:47in the world, there are lots of service parts available
0:01:50for not that, and they aren't that hard to get
0:01:52and they aren't that expensive,
0:01:53so that you can at least service them to some degree,
0:01:56which is nice, but anyway.
0:01:57So the problem is, so I had this beautiful up,
0:02:00this big upright heavy thing, and it was,
0:02:03we just never used it.
0:02:04Like I would use it occasionally,
0:02:05but like no one else in the house would ever use it.
0:02:07Everyone hated it and I would never like bring it upstairs.
0:02:10It's too heavy and all this stuff.
0:02:11So anyway, one year Tiff requested one of the Dyson V
0:02:13whatever's for Christmas and everyone loved it
0:02:17and that's all we ever used from that point forward
0:02:18and the Miele still sits in the closet and never gets used.
0:02:21Problem is they are built crappily in certain ways
0:02:23and one of those ways is the little red trigger
0:02:25that you squeeze.
0:02:27If you search the internet for Dyson broken triggers,
0:02:30you'll see these are horribly designed.
0:02:34All the pressure to hold that trigger
0:02:35against the battery terminals is this little thin piece
0:02:38of plastic that cracks very easily.
0:02:40- One thing about those triggers though,
0:02:41one thing they did get right about the triggers
0:02:43is the effort to pull the trigger is very, very low
0:02:46because it would get fatiguing if you were holding it
0:02:48and you had to like hold the trigger
0:02:49and it was like fighting you the whole time.
0:02:51Incredibly weak springs in there,
0:02:54so it's very easy to hold it down
0:02:55and I believe in the current versions of this,
0:02:58they just got rid of the trigger entirely
0:02:59so they probably should have done
0:03:00because who wants to hold the thing down all the time?
0:03:01I think it's like a switch or something
0:03:03on the most recent ones, so mine hasn't broke
0:03:06and I have always appreciated that they made the trigger
0:03:08really easy to pull but I also kind of wish
0:03:11it didn't have a trigger.
0:03:12- Anyway, to answer your question Casey
0:03:14about how good they are, the problem is
0:03:16they're not super good at being vacuums,
0:03:18like they're okay at being vacuums
0:03:20but they're really convenient.
0:03:22It doesn't really matter that they're not great vacuums,
0:03:25it matters that that's the one you're gonna grab
0:03:27and use the most often.
0:03:27The same way like your phone is not a great camera
0:03:31but it's an okay camera and it's always there
0:03:33and you're always gonna use it
0:03:34and you're gonna be using it way more
0:03:36than you use your better camera.
0:03:37Even though you have a better camera,
0:03:39it's the same kind of thing.
0:03:40- Well it does have, the thing I'll say
0:03:41for the Dyson handheld is they do have a lot of suction
0:03:44for their size and weight because I've had a lot
0:03:46of handheld vacuums over the years starting with the,
0:03:48my parents' dust buster back when dust busters were a thing
0:03:51and they came in beige, those were terrible
0:03:53and I've had other handheld ones over the years
0:03:56and the Dyson handheld like per unit mass,
0:04:00like suction per unit mass is really good on it
0:04:03as long as you keep it clean.
0:04:05Everything else about it is a little cheap
0:04:06and the battery dies pretty quickly
0:04:07and they're really expensive to replace
0:04:08but still the best handheld I've found
0:04:10but I can't, it has not made it to my good products list
0:04:13because I feel like it's just too expensive.
0:04:15- Yeah and they're not amazing products,
0:04:18they're just decent products and the competition is worse
0:04:21as far as I know.
0:04:22Anyway, so my trigger broke, I had to replace it
0:04:24and it became one of these projects like all right,
0:04:26first of all, you order the replacement trigger,
0:04:29it gets here, so that's four or five days.
0:04:32Then I have the replacement, I start taking the vacuum apart
0:04:35based on YouTube videos that tell me how to take stuff apart
0:04:37and I realize, oh, I don't have a screwdriver
0:04:40that can reach down this long skinny hole
0:04:43to get to the screw, like this deeply recessed screw.
0:04:46So now I gotta order some skinny screwdriver.
0:04:49There goes another four days, five days.
0:04:51Then I finally get it in there, I finally get down,
0:04:55I get in there, I need another screwdriver.
0:04:57This time I need a Torx bit on the end
0:04:59of a long skinny screwdriver.
0:04:59All right, four more days.
0:05:01- Read ahead in the instructions, Margot,
0:05:03find out which tools you're gonna need.
0:05:05- Well, they're all just YouTube videos,
0:05:06they're not good at documentation.
0:05:07Anyway, so then eventually I finally have all the tools
0:05:11I need, I finally get to the trigger,
0:05:13which by the way is hilariously complicated
0:05:16and hostile to get to.
0:05:18It's like repairing a butterfly keyboard.
0:05:21It's just, you have to take apart the entire thing
0:05:23and you're really diving it, you have to bend
0:05:26these terminals, it's a ridiculous process.
0:05:28I finally get in there and I put, and I was smart,
0:05:32I bought a metal trigger so it wouldn't break.
0:05:35I go to put the metal trigger on, it doesn't fit
0:05:39without bending it because it's like,
0:05:41you have to bend and snap it on and the moment
0:05:44I bend it even slightly to get it to fit, it breaks.
0:05:47- Oh, it's stupendous.
0:05:49- So, order plastic ones, another five days.
0:05:53- I'm not sure I agree with the actor in that sentence
0:05:56if there was one.
0:05:58- I broke it, okay, I broke it.
0:06:00- I think that's more accurate.
0:06:01- But I was trying, I'm like, is there any way
0:06:03I can get this to somehow snap on?
0:06:06- Was it the wrong part?
0:06:07- No, it was the right part, but it's one of those things,
0:06:10this is from Dyson, this is like Amazon Randos.
0:06:13- Oh yeah, no, especially for the batteries,
0:06:16I would not recommend buying the much cheaper ones
0:06:18from Amazon because--
0:06:19- Oh, batteries, definitely I wouldn't, no.
0:06:21But a little plastic piece that Dyson misdesigned
0:06:23from the start, no.
0:06:24Anyway, so the Amazon ones have like,
0:06:26they have like more plastic in the right areas.
0:06:27Anyway, so finally, another five days go by,
0:06:31I finally get my plastic ones, today I finally
0:06:34put it back on and reassembled it and it works.
0:06:37And it took such a ridiculously long time
0:06:40and it was so not worth it, if I'm honest with you.
0:06:43I must have lost like five hours to this project at least.
0:06:47- Oh my word.
0:06:48- Probably still worthy, 'cause you don't wanna buy
0:06:50another one of those, they're just too expensive.
0:06:52- I know, but the one I was repairing
0:06:53was like five years old, so it's like,
0:06:54it wasn't super new, but it's almost not worth it.
0:06:57Anyway, even though I hate these things,
0:06:59they still are the ones I go for the most
0:07:01and I do the most vacuuming in the house,
0:07:03so I guess that's important.
0:07:04- Jon, there's some exciting news.
0:07:08- It's not, it's old news, I just wanna mention it again.
0:07:11I'm still selling my shirts and since they're only sold
0:07:14every five years, I made the sale extra, extra long,
0:07:18which I do not wanna hear people say,
0:07:19"Oh, I just missed the sale, the sale's running,
0:07:21"it's running so long."
0:07:22I apologize to the people who ordered their shirts already,
0:07:24they're like, "When is my shirt coming?"
0:07:25Like the sale's not even over yet.
0:07:26It ends Saturday, August 12th,
0:07:28if you want a Hypercritical shirt,
0:07:30I hope you're hearing this before Saturday, August 12th,
0:07:33do the Casey thing and like pull over to the side
0:07:35of the road and order it, like don't set it off 'til later
0:07:37because they're not coming back for five years.
0:07:40I'm excited by the way that I think,
0:07:41so it's 2028, they'll be back, that means in 10 years
0:07:44after that it'll be 2038, which is the 32-bit rollover
0:07:47of the UNIX Epoch, I think.
0:07:48- Oh my gosh, nerd. - So that'll be a fun one.
0:07:50But anyway, don't wait, if you want a shirt, get one.
0:07:52That's what they're here for.
0:07:53For all the people who have these shirts
0:07:55and they're wearing out or they didn't get one last time
0:07:57and they want one, Hypercritical shirts,
0:07:59go to hypercritical.co/shirt before August 12th.
0:08:03- If you're listening to this now, like Jon alluded to,
0:08:06please pull over to the side of the sidewalk
0:08:08if you're in New York, to the side of the road
0:08:10if you're almost anywhere else,
0:08:12and go ahead, take out your phone, hypercritical.co/shirt.
0:08:17- What if you're on one of those giant escalators
0:08:19for the London Underground?
0:08:21Like, do you have enough space
0:08:22to like squeeze over to the right?
0:08:24- No, don't do it then, because you're not gonna notice
0:08:26when the top of the, or bottom of the escalator comes
0:08:28and you're just gonna like fall over and cause a big mess.
0:08:30Wait until you're off the escalator
0:08:31and then step to the side.
0:08:32- Well, and plus, what side of the escalator do you stop on?
0:08:35'Cause they drive on the wrong side of the road.
0:08:38Do they also walk on the wrong side of the road?
0:08:39- Yeah, there's no way to tell there.
0:08:41It's like tipping, there's no way to tell what to do.
0:08:43(laughing)
0:08:45- It's not true.
0:08:45Anyway, hypercritical.co/shirt.
0:08:47We got a piece of follow-up from Wilson Martinez,
0:08:50and Wilson writes, "I can't figure out who is who
0:08:52when listening.
0:08:53Can you say your names in the next podcast
0:08:55so I can put a name to a voice?"
0:08:56Well, I'm Casey, and I'm the normal one.
0:09:00And you can take that however you'd like.
0:09:02Marco, how would you like to introduce yourself?
0:09:04- I'm Marco, and I'm the jerk.
0:09:05(laughing)
0:09:08- John.
0:09:09- You have to say more.
0:09:10- The whole point of this segment is
0:09:11you get to hear our voices.
0:09:12This is John, this is what my voice sounds like.
0:09:14It's a little bit like Kermit the Frog.
0:09:15I don't think my voice sounds anything like the other two.
0:09:17I think we have very distinct voices,
0:09:19but you might not know.
0:09:20So if you're wondering, who's John, that's me.
0:09:22S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse.
0:09:24That's me.
0:09:25This is my voice.
0:09:26You're hearing my voice right now.
0:09:27See how much content I'm giving them?
0:09:29So they'll know this is my voice,
0:09:30whereas they just heard Casey briefly,
0:09:32and they've already forgotten what he sounds like.
0:09:33And Marco said like two words,
0:09:35and then Casey laughed over him.
0:09:36So they don't know who Marco is, but they know who I am.
0:09:38They'll figure out the rest.
0:09:40- It'll be fine.
0:09:40My voice is my passport.
0:09:41Verify me.
0:09:42- Who said that?
0:09:43- That was Casey speaking.
0:09:44- Every time we speak there, we have to say,
0:09:46"Hi, this is John.
0:09:47"I'm speaking now."
0:09:48(laughing)
0:09:49- Hi, this is Tim.
0:09:51- No, you're confusing people now they think you're Tim.
0:09:53You have to go back and say you're Casey.
0:09:54- We don't have a Tim.
0:09:56- The reason I put this in the show notes
0:09:57is because I wanted like a chapter marker to send people,
0:09:59because lots of people can't distinguish our voices,
0:10:01and we don't introduce ourselves.
0:10:03And I apologize for that,
0:10:03but it's just part of the show format.
0:10:05But from now on, if someone asks,
0:10:06I'll save this in a little notes document,
0:10:08and I'll send it to them,
0:10:09and I'll be able to listen to this,
0:10:11and they'll hear me saying,
0:10:12"Yes, this is John.
0:10:13"This is what my voice sounds like."
0:10:14Sometimes I mumble.
0:10:16- We couldn't have done a better job of this.
0:10:18To introduce people to who we are in our show.
0:10:20- Who's talking?
0:10:21I don't recognize that voice.
0:10:22- Oh my gosh.
0:10:23- Yeah, sorry, this is Marco.
0:10:25Over.
0:10:25- Oh no, no, it's happening again.
0:10:27(laughing)
0:10:28- Just every time we talk, it's like IRC.
0:10:30We have to prefix it with our name.
0:10:31Marco, colon.
0:10:32Casey, no, I'm screwing it up now.
0:10:33Edit that out, Marco.
0:10:34We're gonna confuse people.
0:10:35- Oh no, no, no.
0:10:36- Oh my gosh.
0:10:37The funny thing is, I don't know,
0:10:38something like two years ago,
0:10:40I got a bur up my keister about this.
0:10:42This is, hi, this is Casey.
0:10:44Like two years ago, I got a bur up my keister about this.
0:10:48Casey got a bur up his own keister about this.
0:10:50- Why are you putting burrs up there?
0:10:53- Anyway, just bear with me here.
0:10:54- He got a bur.
0:10:55He didn't say how it got there.
0:10:56It's passive voice.
0:10:57- Yeah, I bet ER doctors hear a lot of that.
0:10:59It got there.
0:11:00I don't know how it got there.
0:11:01- One in a million shot, doc.
0:11:02- One in a million.
0:11:03Anyway, so I had put together a meet your hosts page
0:11:08on the ATP website, which is there.
0:11:10It's been there this whole time.
0:11:12The call's coming from inside the house.
0:11:13- It is?
0:11:14- Yes, ATP.fm/hosts.
0:11:16And I put this together a while ago,
0:11:17and the funny thing is, I put together a blurb
0:11:20for Marco and for John and myself.
0:11:22And I think both of them tweaked the blurb
0:11:25that I gave them, at least a little.
0:11:27- I didn't tweet this.
0:11:28I would never leave a semicolon in my blurb.
0:11:30- Oh, we gotta change this.
0:11:31It links to my Twitter handle, come on.
0:11:33Oh, this was years ago!
0:11:35Stay with me.
0:11:36Anyway, the point is--
0:11:38- I've gotten taller since then.
0:11:40- I don't think you have.
0:11:41(laughing)
0:11:42- This is going so far off the rails, it's ridiculous.
0:11:44But anyways, the funny thing to me though
0:11:46is that Marco, I think you at least acknowledged
0:11:49the existence of this page two years ago, whatever it was,
0:11:51and then basically ignored it,
0:11:52which is typical Marco fashion.
0:11:54That's neither good nor bad.
0:11:54It's just typical Marco.
0:11:56John, however, could not let this thing
0:11:58that no other human has seen until today stand,
0:12:01and triple the size of his little blurb,
0:12:03making it far more involved than either of the two of us.
0:12:06- Yeah, 'cause if you're gonna tell people who you are,
0:12:08say something to distinguish who you are,
0:12:10like you may know me from such things as Troy McClure style.
0:12:13- Anyways, it probably should be updated,
0:12:16but what I was envisioning was not only would we have
0:12:19this image of us and little blurbs about each of us,
0:12:23but I envisioned having Marco microphone review style
0:12:28snippets of us talking from the show
0:12:30or perhaps even introducing ourselves or whatever.
0:12:32This has been such a train wreck that we cannot extract
0:12:35any of this to use on this page.
0:12:36- No, that's exactly correct for our show.
0:12:39- Yes.
0:12:40- It should be a giant train wreck.
0:12:41Although it occurs to me that it sounds,
0:12:43introducing ourselves, that's what they do
0:12:44on the earnings calls, you know?
0:12:46- Yep, yep.
0:12:47- Like, "You're doing this, hi, this is Tim," or whatever.
0:12:48This is not Tim, this is still John, don't be confused.
0:12:50(laughing)
0:12:52We're doing a terrible job of this.
0:12:54This is amazing.
0:12:56Now don't you appreciate the fact that we don't
0:12:58introduce ourselves or refer to ourselves by name
0:13:00most of the time?
0:13:01- I think at this point they've all stopped listening.
0:13:04- Yeah, it's so true.
0:13:05- That's what chapter markers are for, baby.
0:13:07If you already knew our voices,
0:13:08you already skipped this chapter.
0:13:09- That's true, well, but then you missed out
0:13:11on this delightful, beautiful train wreck.
0:13:13- You missed out learning about atb.fm/hosts,
0:13:16which is a terrible page that we need
0:13:17to either update or delete.
0:13:18- I feel like now we can't.
0:13:19Like now we have to leave it.
0:13:20- No, you have to stay there, we'll fix it.
0:13:22We'll just get rid of the Twitter handles
0:13:23and put it on our Mastodon handles and stuff.
0:13:24We'll fix it, we'll work on it.
0:13:27We are brought to you this week by you, the audience,
0:13:30and specifically the ATP members.
0:13:32Now of course they aren't hearing this
0:13:34because this is considered an ad
0:13:35and members get an ad-free version of the show.
0:13:38So if you become a member today,
0:13:40and well, really any day, but we encourage you
0:13:42to become a member as soon as you can.
0:13:45If you become a member, you won't hear messages like this
0:13:48and you won't hear our usual sponsor reads either.
0:13:50You get an ad-free version of the show.
0:13:51You also get the bootleg feed, which many members enjoy.
0:13:55This is the unedited livestream feed
0:13:57and this includes all the roughness of the unedited stream.
0:14:00It includes Casey's cursing, it includes my bad joke timing,
0:14:04it includes the beating and end little segments
0:14:05that we cut out for time or they aren't relevant enough.
0:14:08It includes the title selection process
0:14:10at the end of the show that we always do.
0:14:11So it's a pretty fun bonus, a lot of people really enjoy that
0:14:14but mainly you're paying for those feeds.
0:14:15The ad-free feed and the bootleg feed if you want it
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0:14:20People do whatever they want.
0:14:21So that's ATP membership.
0:14:23You also get a couple other small perks here and there
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0:14:31We have a few different currencies available.
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0:14:56Thank you so much for considering
0:14:57and now back to the show.
0:14:59- Apple Vision Pro Labs developer kit
0:15:05and compatibility evaluation signup are live
0:15:08and you can ask to work with Apple as it says in the URL
0:15:12in order to do any of these things.
0:15:15So they are starting extremely soon.
0:15:18I forget exactly when but I think in the next week or so,
0:15:21at least the Cupertino ones are happening
0:15:23and then there's going to be labs in London, Munich,
0:15:26Shanghai, Singapore and Tokyo.
0:15:28That is where you can go in and use a Vision Pro
0:15:31presumably with your app and tweak it
0:15:33and work on it and so on.
0:15:35They can take your app and do a compatibility evaluation.
0:15:38So they run it to kind of like app review
0:15:40kind of sort of style.
0:15:42I mean, none of the three of us have any issues
0:15:43with app reviews, that's awesome.
0:15:45And they'll tell you, hey, it's a pile of garbage
0:15:47or hey, there's a video player here that you need to look at
0:15:50or whatever the case may be
0:15:51or maybe they'll talk about copyright.
0:15:53And then finally, you can apply to get
0:15:55a Vision Pro developer kit,
0:15:57which we should talk a little bit about the details
0:15:59with regard to that as well here in a moment.
0:16:01But all of those things you can do right now.
0:16:04And I think that signups for the labs at least,
0:16:07I believe those close very, very soon,
0:16:09like in the next couple of days, if I'm not mistaken.
0:16:12I have not yet signed up for any of this in no small part
0:16:15because I have not done anything Vision Pro related.
0:16:17Like I have, I would like to do some of this.
0:16:19I am enthusiastic about the idea of trying the Vision Pro,
0:16:23but I have done literally nothing.
0:16:26And so I don't know if I'm a particularly great candidate
0:16:29for any of these things.
0:16:30Perhaps if I can ever get my head above sand
0:16:32or above water or whatever with regard to call sheet,
0:16:34then maybe I'll apply for one if it's not too late.
0:16:37But Marco, I assume you have applied for all the things?
0:16:40- I have actually applied only for the dev kit,
0:16:42only because my actual app for Vision Pro
0:16:46is nowhere near ready because it is only my,
0:16:49like the rewrite of my app, which at this point is,
0:16:52I would describe it as maybe 20% or 30%, you know, done.
0:16:56It's really not, you know, anywhere close to shipping.
0:16:59And so I applied for the dev kit kind of optimistically.
0:17:03And I even, you know, they have you explain
0:17:06in like 200 words or so, like, you know,
0:17:08why you should, why you want one
0:17:10and why you should have one basically.
0:17:11It's like a job application.
0:17:13And I even wrote in there, I'm like, look,
0:17:15this is not a visually compelling app.
0:17:18This is a three column list view,
0:17:20showing lists of podcast episodes.
0:17:22And it's not like a super immersive experience.
0:17:24So if that's what you're looking for,
0:17:25no problem, no hard feelings, I understand.
0:17:28However, what I'm looking for is basically,
0:17:30I wanna know how the audio system works,
0:17:32how background audio works.
0:17:33I wanna know how my audio engine,
0:17:35which is pretty low level, interacts with the hardware.
0:17:38I wanna be able to play with different audio configurations
0:17:42and options and things like that.
0:17:43So that's why I wanna access to the hardware.
0:17:46But it's not a super visually, you know,
0:17:49massive immersion kind of app.
0:17:51So I don't think I'm going to get one in all likelihood.
0:17:53And frankly, I probably shouldn't get one
0:17:56for all those reasons.
0:17:57Like if they have a fairly limited number of them,
0:18:00which just sounds like it's gonna be the case,
0:18:02and if they wanna only give it to like really high impact
0:18:05visual kind of apps, there is no way I should have one.
0:18:09But if they happen to want to give one to a podcast player
0:18:14that is showing a list of episodes
0:18:15and you know, playback controls,
0:18:16I would love to actually use one.
0:18:19'Cause I think it's gonna be very difficult
0:18:22to develop good apps for this platform
0:18:25without actually having one.
0:18:26Because we don't know how any of the controls
0:18:31or the mechanisms or the conventions actually feel
0:18:36and work and look and practice.
0:18:37Like right now, I'm doing a whole bunch
0:18:39of iPhone design work.
0:18:41I'm doing, you know, 'cause I'm in the middle
0:18:43of this rewrite, plus I'm working on my iOS 17 widgets
0:18:45for my old code base that will,
0:18:47I'm hopefully gonna have iOS 17 widgets ready shortly.
0:18:50And so I'm doing a lot of design work
0:18:51where like I'm laying out interfaces on the iPhone app.
0:18:55And yes, I have the simulator,
0:18:57but on my desk right now are three iPhones
0:19:00because of various sizes and ages and things.
0:19:03Because you have to feel it, you have to try it.
0:19:06It's funny, I actually, I happen to have dug up
0:19:10what I believe is my first ever podcast appearance.
0:19:15Because they had Chuck Joyner on Mac Power Users
0:19:20this past week.
0:19:21And I remembered, I'm pretty sure his show
0:19:23that I did in April of 2010, I think,
0:19:27this was between the iPad's announcement and its release.
0:19:32Which is kind of funny, like listening back,
0:19:33I mean, first of all, it is not,
0:19:36I was not good on this show.
0:19:39I was, first of all, I was like calling in from a phone.
0:19:42I sound terrible and I spoke extremely slowly
0:19:46for some reason.
0:19:47I don't know what has changed,
0:19:50maybe I've just had a lot of coffee
0:19:51in the intervening 13 years.
0:19:54- New York working its magic.
0:19:55- Yeah, right, I guess.
0:19:57But anyway, I re-listened to this.
0:20:00And it was interesting, I was listening back,
0:20:02'cause this was the time period where we were,
0:20:04we spent a big part of the show kind of talking
0:20:06about our expectations of what the iPad would be like.
0:20:08Because again, it was announced,
0:20:10but it wasn't available yet.
0:20:11And I was able to develop for it,
0:20:13like they released the SDK before we all had hardware.
0:20:16And by the way, and please don't,
0:20:17if you listen to this, please know,
0:20:19I'm not proud of, it's very dated in a number of ways.
0:20:23I made a couple of assumptions about a male audience
0:20:26a few times that I feel really bad about now.
0:20:28Like, please be kind.
0:20:30But anyway, it was a similar time period
0:20:33where we had this hardware announcement
0:20:34and they showed off the hardware, but nobody had it yet.
0:20:37And we were all developing apps for it
0:20:39without having access to the hardware yet.
0:20:41The problem was that I was saying like,
0:20:43we don't know how this is going to feel in our hands.
0:20:46We don't know how certain things will work yet.
0:20:48And what I ended up shipping for Instapaper,
0:20:51which was the app I was using at the time,
0:20:52which is what the interview was mostly about,
0:20:53what I ended up shipping for Instapaper's first iPad app
0:20:57was just a stretched out iPhone app.
0:20:59And it sucked, it was terrible.
0:21:02And I replaced it as quickly as possible
0:21:04with a total redesign.
0:21:06And I think, I fear that what's gonna happen
0:21:09with Vision Pro is we're all gonna make these
0:21:12versions of our apps in the simulator
0:21:13between now and whenever we can get our hands
0:21:15on a real one, probably early next year, at the best case.
0:21:19And then we're gonna actually get it and realize,
0:21:21oh, this is totally wrong.
0:21:23'Cause you can tell, like, when I'm doing the iPhone work,
0:21:26I can do this great design in the simulator
0:21:29and the first time I run it on a device,
0:21:30I can instantly tell, oh, that's wrong.
0:21:32That's too small or that's too big or that doesn't work
0:21:33or that doesn't look right or it doesn't feel right.
0:21:36You really need to use the hardware
0:21:38to really know how something feels.
0:21:40And it doesn't need to be something super flashy
0:21:42or involved or innovative to hit those walls
0:21:46and to realize you've made a design mistake.
0:21:48It can be a very simple table view app
0:21:51and you can instantly know, oh, this doesn't work
0:21:53right on the hardware.
0:21:55And with this hardware in particular,
0:21:56this is even more different than when we were going
0:22:00from iPhone to iPad.
0:22:02Because at least iPhone to iPad, at least first of all,
0:22:04the interface looked and worked very similarly to the iPhone
0:22:08and it was still a touch screen.
0:22:10So it was far more similar than what we have now
0:22:15going from literally anything to the Vision Pro,
0:22:18which is controlled totally differently,
0:22:20looks totally different, works totally different,
0:22:22the app environment, like everything about it
0:22:24is so different down to the fundamentals
0:22:27of how you interact with it.
0:22:29So I suspect this is gonna be a platform
0:22:32where you really need the hardware to really design an app
0:22:35that's worth using it all.
0:22:37So that's why I applied to the developer kit.
0:22:40And I kind of feel bad that even if I get one,
0:22:43I'm gonna have very little to show in my app
0:22:46for maybe six months.
0:22:48Like that's, I think six months from now,
0:22:50I could probably have a working version
0:22:52with the new code base that actually has like
0:22:54a useful amount of features that could be released
0:22:57on its own.
0:22:58But between now and then, I'm not gonna have much
0:23:00to show for it.
0:23:01So that's why I didn't even apply for the labs yet
0:23:03'cause I have nothing to run yet.
0:23:04I didn't apply for the please run my app
0:23:07and tell me if it's broken test flight thing.
0:23:09Because again, I'm not even to that point yet.
0:23:12So anyway, I applied.
0:23:14And then assuming they maybe possibly ever say yes
0:23:17in the next three months, that'll give me time
0:23:20to actually figure out how I'm gonna comply
0:23:21with the security requirements.
0:23:23- Indeed, okay, before we talk about that,
0:23:25Jon, did you apply for any of these things?
0:23:27I presume not?
0:23:28- No, I don't have any Vision Pro apps.
0:23:31They're working on none of my apps.
0:23:32It's not relevant to my apps.
0:23:33I don't have any ideas for Vision Pro apps.
0:23:35I'm not gonna get one.
0:23:36- Fair enough.
0:23:37All right, so a friend of the show, James Thompson,
0:23:40was tootin' on Mastodon when this all happened.
0:23:43James said, "You know, needless to say,
0:23:45"I applied to get the Vision Pro developer kit for PCALC
0:23:47"and probably more interesting, DICE by PCALC,"
0:23:49which is a DICE simulator you can use
0:23:52for, say, role-playing games or whatever.
0:23:54Then James continues, "The security requirements
0:23:55"for keeping the developer kit safe read more
0:23:57"like a PlayStation developer kit,
0:23:59"and unlike anything else I've seen
0:24:00"with pre-release Apple hardware,
0:24:02"for example, the Apple Silicon DTK."
0:24:04So this is a little bit long,
0:24:06but I think it's worth reading.
0:24:07This is now Apple's words as a part of the developer kit,
0:24:11like signup or whatever.
0:24:13Apple says, "You agree that all access to, usage of,
0:24:17"and storage use of the developer kit
0:24:19"will be in private, secure workspace accessible
0:24:21"only by you and your authorized developers,
0:24:24"for example, fully enclosed with solid doors,
0:24:26"floors, walls, and ceiling, and locks that can be engaged
0:24:29"when the developer kit is in use.
0:24:31"You must ensure that unauthorized persons,
0:24:32"including any family, friends, roommates,
0:24:34"or household employees,"
0:24:36household employees, my word,
0:24:37"do not access, view, handle, or use the DK,"
0:24:40the developer kit.
0:24:41- Oh, my butler can't use it.
0:24:43- Right, exactly.
0:24:43Very, very, very Silicon Valley, am I right?
0:24:45"When in use, the DK should be in your positive control
0:24:48"on your person or within your direct line of sight
0:24:50"at all times.
0:24:51"You must ensure that the DK is passcode protected.
0:24:54"Never leave the DK unattended when not in use.
0:24:56"Turn off the DK and store it in its locked Pelican case
0:25:00"in a locked space that only you have access to,
0:25:03"for example, a locked room or closet,
0:25:05"a safe or a locked drawer.
0:25:07"The DK may not be moved from or taken away from
0:25:10"its shipped to address by you or your authorized developers
0:25:13"without Apple's prior written consent.
0:25:15"If you will be away from your workspace
0:25:17"for more than 10 days,
0:25:18"consult with your Apple point of contact
0:25:20"about how to keep the DK safe while you are away.
0:25:22"You agree to restrict access to the DK
0:25:24"to you and your authorized developers
0:25:26"and take all reasonable precautions
0:25:27"to safeguard the DK from loss or theft."
0:25:31I mean, if I get one, my in-home office
0:25:35does not have a lock that has a key.
0:25:37- Yeah, you need a new house.
0:25:39- And it has windows.
0:25:40Like, does that mean I can't use it?
0:25:41Like, what the lock?
0:25:42- You just have to have solid doors, floors, walls,
0:25:44and ceiling and locks that keep me engaged
0:25:46when it's not in use.
0:25:47I'm gonna go out and let him say--
0:25:48- No, but no one else is allowed to view it.
0:25:50So you can only use it when you have locked yourself
0:25:53in the room.
0:25:53- Right, right, right.
0:25:54- I think pretty much zero people
0:25:57are going to fully comply with this
0:25:58'cause it's basically impossible human nature-wise
0:26:01to fully comply with this,
0:26:02even if you have the best of intentions
0:26:04because it demands so much of you
0:26:06that's out of the ordinary.
0:26:07And the normal human mind will rebel against the absurdity
0:26:11of these requirements for a product
0:26:12that has already been announced and tried by the press,
0:26:16although not us.
0:26:17It's not like, you know, if before this was revealed,
0:26:20I can understand something like this,
0:26:21but it's just impossible to comply with this.
0:26:23Like, unless you have a compliance officer there
0:26:26who's checking all the time,
0:26:27there's no way, even with the best of intentions,
0:26:29you're gonna, like, it just requires too much.
0:26:32So I'm not quite sure why.
0:26:33Maybe this is just boilerplate they have
0:26:35for when they, like, you know,
0:26:36like Unity has been working on stuff for two years.
0:26:38So before it was announced,
0:26:40I can imagine agreements like this
0:26:42being enforced in a big company.
0:26:44But this developer kit thing
0:26:46is open to anyone who wants to apply.
0:26:48So individual developers who work from their home
0:26:51are gonna get this device.
0:26:52They can't comply with this.
0:26:54Like, Unity might be able to
0:26:55'cause they're a big company
0:26:56and they actually have compliance officers and stuff,
0:26:58and there's millions of dollars online
0:26:59if they screw up or whatever,
0:27:00but individual developers won't.
0:27:02I think it is interesting
0:27:03that they're being so super cautious about it,
0:27:05but I do wonder if this is, like, leftover language
0:27:07from, like, the before times before WWDC.
0:27:10- Yeah, well, 'cause this is the level of security
0:27:12that you would have if they're, like,
0:27:15you know, if they're showing off some new hardware soon
0:27:18and they go to your company a couple weeks ahead of time,
0:27:21and like, here, try this new iPad, make your app for it,
0:27:23we'll show it in the keynote.
0:27:24Like, this is that level of security,
0:27:26although this is actually, when that has happened,
0:27:30it's been even higher in the sense that usually
0:27:31they put it in some, like, tremendous enclosure
0:27:34so you can't even really see what the device looks like
0:27:36outside of the screen.
0:27:37- Yeah, or sometimes they'll have you come to them
0:27:40to work on it in a place that they control.
0:27:42But all those situations that you're describing
0:27:44involve companies, and companies have people whose job it is
0:27:46to, like, comply with these things
0:27:48and not get the company sued
0:27:49because companies have a lot of money
0:27:50and there's contract, like, that all makes perfect sense.
0:27:53But, hey, individual developer,
0:27:55come throw your hat in the ring to sign up for this thing
0:27:58and we'll send you a developer kit.
0:27:59Boy, this is overkill for that.
0:28:01- Yeah, but that being said,
0:28:03first of all, I fully expect that only companies
0:28:07that have those kind of resources
0:28:08are likely to get developer kits.
0:28:11I think everyone else is gonna be told, come to a lab.
0:28:13- Maybe not you, but I think individuals will get it.
0:28:15There's enough individuals with interesting apps
0:28:17that Apple wants to have a developer kit,
0:28:19and I think they're gonna send it to 'em.
0:28:21I think there will be individuals
0:28:22who work out of their home who are gonna get a DK.
0:28:24- Yeah, I mean, I genuinely believe, I really, really do,
0:28:26that Underscore will end up with one of these,
0:28:28as an example.
0:28:29- Oh, yeah, he should, actually.
0:28:30- And he should.
0:28:31So, I would be surprised if there aren't at least
0:28:34a handful of #blessed individuals that get them.
0:28:37But the thing that struck me about this is,
0:28:40again, I haven't even applied,
0:28:41and I think I tend to be a straight shooter,
0:28:44I tend to try not to break the rules,
0:28:46and so I would probably do a best effort
0:28:48on following these rules.
0:28:49But leaving all of this aside,
0:28:51like all things being equal,
0:28:54if I got one of these, of course I'd be like,
0:28:56"Aaron, you have to try this out.
0:28:57"Why would she not?"
0:28:58And it occurred to me, as I was thinking about this--
0:29:00- Well, now you're never gonna get one.
0:29:01- Oh, no, totally, right?
0:29:02- No, you can make her an authorized developer.
0:29:04- You already said on a podcast
0:29:06where you identified yourself by name,
0:29:08so they know which voice is which,
0:29:09that you are not going to comply with this agreement,
0:29:12so forget it, Casey, you're not getting one.
0:29:13- Yeah, it's all your fault, Jon.
0:29:14I was okay when they thought it was you.
0:29:16But, no, anyways, it occurred to me
0:29:18that there is every possibility for this thing to phone home.
0:29:23And it's aware, presumably,
0:29:27I don't know if it's like a retina scan
0:29:29or whatever the scan was,
0:29:30but to identify who's using it,
0:29:32it hypothetically will know if somebody else
0:29:35was put this thing on and has tried it.
0:29:38And is it gonna phone home to Apple if you do that?
0:29:40Oh, I was talking to my friend Brad about this,
0:29:42and Brad had pointed out,
0:29:43"Oh, if somebody walks up to you,
0:29:45"is it gonna be like,
0:29:46"'Uh-oh, somebody was in the presence of this thing,'
0:29:49"you know what I mean?"
0:29:49Like, I'm not sure--
0:29:50- She's gonna self-destroy it on your face.
0:29:52- Right?
0:29:53Like, I don't think Apple is quite that evil,
0:29:56vindictive, whatever-- - No, no, they're not.
0:29:58- But it is hypothetically possible,
0:30:00and that kinda creeps me out.
0:30:02- I mean, look, and I'm sure in their terms,
0:30:05I'm sure it says something like
0:30:06they can do whatever they want,
0:30:07but no, I wouldn't be worried about that.
0:30:09I'd be worried about disappointing Dad.
0:30:12That's kinda what I'd be worried about here.
0:30:15'Cause in many ways, it's similar to,
0:30:18there's been a couple of times in the past
0:30:20where I've been trusted with pre-release review hardware.
0:30:23That wasn't at all the same thing as this.
0:30:25I mean, that was like,
0:30:27hey, we have this MacBook Pro
0:30:28that we're releasing in a week.
0:30:30We've already announced it.
0:30:31Here, you can take one to review for a week.
0:30:35And that's very different from,
0:30:37this is a brand new platform
0:30:38that is unlike everything we've ever shipped before,
0:30:40and it isn't shipping to the public
0:30:41for seven or eight months, probably.
0:30:43That's a very different situation, obviously.
0:30:45So I would expect this to have a lot of security.
0:30:47And the reality is,
0:30:48what I should probably do is go to a lab,
0:30:50and I'm sure I would have not that much trouble
0:30:52getting a slot in a lab.
0:30:54The problem is, I don't wanna fly all over California.
0:30:56(laughs)
0:30:57To fly all over California for this is,
0:30:59that's a lot.
0:31:01And so, look, I'll do it if I have to,
0:31:03but certainly not yet.
0:31:04I mean, I would wait until closer to release time
0:31:07before I did that,
0:31:08but that's a much larger thing for me.
0:31:13If it happened in New York, I'd be there.
0:31:15No question I'd be there.
0:31:17- Right, that's the thing.
0:31:18I was very surprised that it was,
0:31:20left coast or get the hell out.
0:31:22I really would have expected them to do something
0:31:25in New York somewhere.
0:31:26And I mean, I heard through the grapevine
0:31:28that there is an Apple establishment in New York,
0:31:30like where presumably this sort of thing could happen.
0:31:32So I don't know.
0:31:34I was very, very surprised that,
0:31:37they're telling everyone to go to California or pound sand.
0:31:39- I thought they had one of them,
0:31:41maybe just the compatibility labs
0:31:43in multiple cities across the world.
0:31:45- There are, yeah.
0:31:45But the only one in the US is in California.
0:31:49- Oh, all right.
0:31:50- London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, and Tokyo.
0:31:53- There you go.
0:31:54- Anyway, but yeah, this is quite amusing to me.
0:31:57And I mean, in the defense of Apple,
0:31:59I understand what they're going for here.
0:32:01And certainly I think if I were in their shoes,
0:32:04my approach would be,
0:32:05let's put the fear of God into all these people
0:32:08and make them think that they have to be super strict
0:32:10with it, even if they really didn't care
0:32:12and all they cared about was not having a video demo
0:32:15or anything like that.
0:32:17Don't go to YouTube, don't go to the Verge,
0:32:18or whoever, who was it?
0:32:19- Yeah, I mean, I think this is like a butt covering for,
0:32:22what Apple doesn't want is someone posting a picture
0:32:25of here's what the developer kit looks like, right?
0:32:27'Cause that'll be a whole thing.
0:32:28- Yeah, or they don't want people tearing it down
0:32:29and doing the iFixit.
0:32:31- And they don't want you to say,
0:32:32well, I complied with your agreement,
0:32:34but someone sneakily took a picture,
0:32:35and I was like, look, if you comply with our agreement,
0:32:37there'd be no way for someone to sneakily take a picture
0:32:39of it because our agreement is so airtight,
0:32:41so no matter what happens, it's your fault,
0:32:43which is what lawyers do.
0:32:45- Yeah, exactly, indeed.
0:32:46The other thing too is like,
0:32:47'cause I'm giving all these statements assuming
0:32:50that it will be fairly hard to get developer access to this,
0:32:54that's assuming there's a whole bunch of people trying.
0:32:57And that's probably a safe assumption in absolute terms,
0:33:00but in relative terms, I think this platform,
0:33:03I think Apple needs developers to be interested
0:33:06in this platform a little harder
0:33:09than they normally have to push.
0:33:10With the iPhone, they don't really have to push at all.
0:33:12We come to them.
0:33:14With the other platforms,
0:33:16they have to do a little bit of pushing
0:33:18'cause it's less compelling or less,
0:33:21gotta have it for developers.
0:33:22And I think Vision OS is gonna have,
0:33:26as I mentioned before,
0:33:27I think it's gonna have a pretty gradual start.
0:33:28It's not gonna have a lot of unit sales to start.
0:33:31It's not gonna be easy to get for a lot of people
0:33:33for a while due to lots of things,
0:33:35not least of which is the price of course,
0:33:36but also the manufacturing and country availability
0:33:39and stuff like that.
0:33:40So it's gonna be a while before this platform
0:33:42really ramps up with developer interest.
0:33:44It might be the case that any of us
0:33:46who are interested in making apps for it,
0:33:47they might be like, "Yes, please, here!"
0:33:49We don't know.
0:33:50And yeah, I guess we'll find out.
0:33:51It remains to be seen how competitive
0:33:54these developer resources actually are.
0:33:57I hope there's tons of people wanting to develop
0:33:58for this platform because frankly,
0:33:59I think it's pretty cool,
0:34:00and I'm hoping to be a user of this platform,
0:34:02and I'm wanting to have a healthy software ecosystem.
0:34:06But I also, I've heard from a lot of people
0:34:08who are kind of like in the wait and see camp,
0:34:10and as I mentioned in my Vision Pro challenges segment
0:34:13a few weeks back, I don't think a lot of big companies
0:34:17are gonna jump on board quite yet.
0:34:19So it's probably gonna be largely down to
0:34:21independent enthusiasts and developers
0:34:25like Underscore and possibly me,
0:34:28and we'll see whatever Jon comes up with.
0:34:30(laughing)
0:34:32And hopefully in case you can port Call Sheet to it
0:34:34and everything, but like, which actually I think
0:34:36it'll be a pretty good use for it.
0:34:38- Yeah, I do as well.
0:34:39It's not lack of enthusiasm, it's just lack of time.
0:34:42There's only one of me,
0:34:43and I'm trying to get the damn thing out the door,
0:34:45which we'll talk about here in a minute.
0:34:46But yeah, I mean, I think Call Sheet does make sense for it,
0:34:49but I can't, well, maybe I could,
0:34:52but I am of the kind that I can't in good conscience
0:34:56apply for a developer kit before I at least have
0:34:59something to show for it.
0:35:01Even if Apple doesn't necessarily care, I care.
0:35:04I wanna have a little bit of my head around,
0:35:06I wanna have my head a little bit around
0:35:08what all this means, and I'm not there yet,
0:35:10but hopefully I will be soon.
0:35:12- Yeah, it doesn't really help that I have to rewrite
0:35:13all my widgets first, and also they redesigned
0:35:15all of watchOS, and like, all this other stuff
0:35:17I have to get to first, really, for this fall.
0:35:20But anyway, we'll get there.
0:35:22- All right, and then a friend of the show,
0:35:24Steve Troughton-Smith, also noted that
0:35:25the Vision Pro loan period is until 90 days
0:35:28after the launch of the retail product in the United States.
0:35:32It would make sense for Apple to extend that period
0:35:35in countries that have no retail launch of the Vision Pro,
0:35:37unless it expects developers with in-progress apps
0:35:39to either pause development or try to figure out
0:35:41how to import one from the US.
0:35:43That's a good point.
0:35:45- Yeah, I mean, really, honestly, at this point,
0:35:47as I was saying earlier, I think if you're gonna release
0:35:50an app for this platform, you need to be trying it
0:35:52on hardware first, and if you have no way
0:35:56to get one of these afterwards, I don't see
0:36:00how you continue to maintain an app on this platform.
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0:37:49(upbeat music)
0:37:51- I was on vacation last week, as was Jon,
0:37:56which is why we recorded early.
0:37:58And for the first time ever, we actually timed them
0:38:01in parallel rather than serially.
0:38:03So I was very proud of Jon and myself.
0:38:05But nevertheless, that's neither here nor there.
0:38:06So when we last left our hero, that hero would be me.
0:38:09Hi, this is Casey.
0:38:11When we last left our hero,
0:38:13I had submitted Call Sheet to the App Store
0:38:16with a build that I could release,
0:38:20but I knew there were a few fixes left to be done.
0:38:22The screenshots weren't exactly what I wanted.
0:38:24I just wanted to get something across the finish line
0:38:26before I left for vacation.
0:38:28And I don't think I made it clear that that was the real
0:38:30push when we spoke about this last a couple of weeks ago.
0:38:33But I really wanted to get something through app review
0:38:36before vacation.
0:38:37So at least I could go on vacation,
0:38:39not stressing about it, knowing, hey,
0:38:41I've made it across the finish line at least once.
0:38:43I have something I could release if I really wanted to.
0:38:46Everything's kosher, everything's good.
0:38:49As we discussed and as Jon got extremely fired up about,
0:38:52which was very kind of both of you guys
0:38:55to get my back like that.
0:38:57But anyways, as we discussed last time,
0:39:00which was two weeks ago, I got three different rejections.
0:39:03The first was they want an unclickable URL
0:39:06in the app description.
0:39:07Fine, I did that.
0:39:08Then I got a rejection for there being a video player
0:39:10in the app that doesn't have a video player.
0:39:12Fine, we clarified that.
0:39:14Then I got a rejection for using Disney and Pixar copyrighted
0:39:20material in the screenshots that I provided to Apple,
0:39:24and I got rejected.
0:39:25And so I wrote Apple because this
0:39:27was happening as close to real time
0:39:30as one could be with app review.
0:39:32They would send something within a half an hour, 45 minutes,
0:39:34I would send something back.
0:39:35Within about an hour after that, they would send something back
0:39:37and was going back and forth.
0:39:38So in my ignorance, my naivete-- I don't know how
0:39:42to pronounce that word, you know what I'm thinking of--
0:39:45because I'm a dope, I thought, hey, let's just
0:39:47get on the phone.
0:39:48You call me, or I can call you, or whatever.
0:39:51Let's just get on the phone.
0:39:51Let's hammer this out in like five, 10 minutes.
0:39:53We'll get it done.
0:39:54It'll be fine.
0:39:55And they said, sure, we'll call you back in three to five
0:39:57business days.
0:39:58Well, three to five business days
0:39:59meant that when I was on the beach in Cape Charles,
0:40:02I received a phone call from Apple.
0:40:04So I ran to the dune, which was far away from all the people
0:40:10and the music and all that.
0:40:11You're supposed to keep off the dunes, Casey.
0:40:13Yeah, well, I ran to the cutout through the dune
0:40:16that you used to get to the beach.
0:40:18And see, I forget with whom I'm speaking.
0:40:20By the way, that was Marco, everybody,
0:40:22that lives on the beach.
0:40:23Hi, this is Casey.
0:40:24I'm the chief interrupter.
0:40:26I don't know if that's true.
0:40:27It's definitely true.
0:40:28But I spoke with a gentleman who only identified himself
0:40:31as Richard, hand to God.
0:40:35He was incredibly kind and incredibly patient
0:40:38and incredibly chill.
0:40:39Like, I cannot-- I probably shouldn't state this publicly
0:40:43because it's mildly embarrassing.
0:40:44But I cannot remember having a phone call that I was this--
0:40:50maybe not scared, nervous, worried, just a ball of emotion
0:40:57about.
0:40:58Like, my heart was pumping a mile a minute.
0:41:00In retrospect, I should have done a Apple Watch heartbeat
0:41:03doodad.
0:41:04You know what I'm thinking of?
0:41:04Like, I actually read my heartbeat.
0:41:05Did you get the alert that's like, hey,
0:41:07your heart rate's a little off?
0:41:08It looks like you're talking to App Review.
0:41:10Right, exactly.
0:41:13It's so true.
0:41:15Do you want to begin a workout?
0:41:18People are always doing those fake icons
0:41:20for different kinds of workouts.
0:41:21They should do a talking to App Review workout.
0:41:22Someone work on that.
0:41:23100% true.
0:41:24So anyways, I cannot tell you how--
0:41:30I was not really moving.
0:41:32And I was, like, mildly out of breath.
0:41:35I was so nervous for this phone call.
0:41:37And truth be told, Richard was so nice and so chill.
0:41:42And based on his demeanor alone, I really
0:41:46didn't need to be this worked up.
0:41:48I had built this up in my head.
0:41:49I'd been stressed about it through the beginning
0:41:50of our vacation.
0:41:51And I'm just freaking the F out, right?
0:41:54And he gets me on the phone.
0:41:57And one of the first things he said,
0:41:59which kind of made me chuckle--
0:42:01and I don't remember the words verbatim,
0:42:02but as close as I can remember, he said,
0:42:05I just want to let you know that I have to tell you this call
0:42:07cannot be recorded.
0:42:08And I do not consent to it being recorded,
0:42:11which I thought was quite funny.
0:42:13I mean, that's an interesting sentiment
0:42:15to express, even to those that aren't the exact words,
0:42:17because cannot be recorded?
0:42:18Well, Richard, I'm not sure you're right about that.
0:42:21I'm pretty sure it can be recorded.
0:42:23And I register your lack of consent.
0:42:25But I happen to live in a state that requires only one of us
0:42:28to consent, and I consent.
0:42:30So where are we now, Richard?
0:42:33But that's not a good way to start that call.
0:42:35So I'm glad you didn't do that.
0:42:36No, it is not.
0:42:37No, it is not.
0:42:37It's like, this call could be recorded.
0:42:40It probably shouldn't.
0:42:41You probably should not record.
0:42:42As far as you know, I'm not recording this, Richard.
0:42:45Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
0:42:46If you recall, I did briefly look at the state laws--
0:42:49the Commonwealth laws here in Virginia.
0:42:52And as far as I can tell, it is a single-party consent state.
0:42:55Now, California is not, if I remember correctly--
0:42:57so I don't know how that would work out.
0:42:58But it doesn't matter.
0:42:58I mean, you can do whatever you want within the law.
0:43:00But then also, Apple can just reject your app forever.
0:43:02So think about that.
0:43:03There's that, too.
0:43:04I did not record it because I was standing on a beach.
0:43:07So he gets me on the phone, and he basically says,
0:43:11I've taken a look at your situation.
0:43:13Your app is good to go.
0:43:15Do you want me to release this one,
0:43:16or do you want to send another bug fix through?
0:43:18What do you want to do?
0:43:18I want to pause you here, Casey, because one strain of feedback
0:43:22we got after the show where I was complaining
0:43:25about your rejection and how ridiculous it was
0:43:27from people with experience with copyright
0:43:29and dealing with IP law and ownership of stuff.
0:43:33And many of those people were super-duper confident
0:43:36that we were a bunch of dummies and just didn't understand
0:43:39how copyright law worked.
0:43:41And I think all of us were fairly deferential,
0:43:43saying we're not lawyers.
0:43:44We don't understand how copyright works.
0:43:45But one thing we do know, and what
0:43:47I tried to emphasize in that episode
0:43:48is there are many apps like this on the App Store.
0:43:52And there is no way that all of those apps, some of which
0:43:56are made by individual developers like Casey,
0:43:58have gotten all the clearances that these supposed
0:44:01experts in copyright law think we need to get.
0:44:04And I think Richard saying, oh, no, your app is fine,
0:44:08pretty firmly puts the decision in our camp saying,
0:44:11we were right.
0:44:12You don't need contracts with every movie and television
0:44:15production company in the world to produce an app like Casey's.
0:44:18In fact, Apple said, it's fine.
0:44:21Yep.
0:44:22And we had-- I could look it up.
0:44:24I have my phone next to me.
0:44:25But I would say we had a five to 10-minute conversation.
0:44:28But the TLDR, the short short of it was, it was fine.
0:44:31And they were good to release as if I was good to release.
0:44:34And so I genuinely have no idea if I got through because
0:44:41of ATP, if I got through because John Siracusa was upset
0:44:45and Marco Armond were upset.
0:44:46I really don't think that's it.
0:44:47I genuinely don't think it is.
0:44:49I think the app is fine.
0:44:49That's the whole point.
0:44:50Exactly.
0:44:51Because there are so many apps like this,
0:44:53if just a single human who understands anything
0:44:55about the App Store looked at it, they'd be like, oh, yeah,
0:44:56there's tons of apps like this.
0:44:58Does it do anything wrong?
0:44:59No?
0:44:59Then why are we stopping it?
0:45:01Well, and also, I feel-- oh, by the way, this is Marco.
0:45:03I feel like all that you need to know is it's now resolved.
0:45:07That's it.
0:45:08Don't dwell too much on why.
0:45:09Just move on.
0:45:12What is it?
0:45:12Past performance has no whatever implications on future--
0:45:15whatever they tell you about the stock stuff.
0:45:17This doesn't mean that the app won't get rejected
0:45:18for the exact same reason next time you submit it.
0:45:20That's the magic of the App Store.
0:45:22Yep, that is the magic of the App Store.
0:45:23And I asked him a few things, not in a challenge-y way.
0:45:26Like, hey, I think at one point I said, hey, for the future,
0:45:30should I have handled this differently?
0:45:31Did I do something wrong here?
0:45:33And I was very deferential.
0:45:36I was trying to say in so many words, look,
0:45:38I don't want to waste your time.
0:45:40Actually, I might have even said that to him.
0:45:41I don't want to waste your time.
0:45:42I think I know what you were trying to say,
0:45:44but in a very nice way.
0:45:45Exactly.
0:45:46I was trying to say--
0:45:47This whole process has been BS.
0:45:49Yes.
0:45:50I was trying to say this was a waste of everyone's time,
0:45:52especially mine.
0:45:53Yes, exactly.
0:45:54What should I have done for the next time?
0:45:56And again, he was very kind, very chill.
0:45:59He said, no, no, no, you're good.
0:46:00You didn't do anything wrong.
0:46:01It's all fine.
0:46:02And you should have said, and Richard,
0:46:03what do you think you should do for next time?
0:46:06Is there anything that you want to talk about that maybe you
0:46:09could have done better?
0:46:11Oh, that's very funny.
0:46:12So anyway, so we were on the phone for five or 10 minutes.
0:46:14And he said, OK, how do you want to proceed?
0:46:16Do you want to release this one?
0:46:17And it was all a pending developer release
0:46:19once it gets through app review.
0:46:21But I said, you know what?
0:46:21No, I'd like to see this across the finish line.
0:46:23Would you go ahead and send it through, please?
0:46:25He said, absolutely, no problem.
0:46:26I'll give you a call.
0:46:27It'll probably be a couple hours.
0:46:28We'll get it through.
0:46:29This was somewhere to the order of 1 o'clock in the
0:46:32afternoon Eastern time.
0:46:336 o'clock Eastern time comes around.
0:46:36The app still hasn't passed review.
0:46:38I know that it's in review because you can see the state
0:46:41of things using App Store Connect.
0:46:43And there's an app for that, I think, also called
0:46:45App Store Connect.
0:46:46There's a website, blah, blah, blah.
0:46:47And I see that it's been in review for a couple hours now.
0:46:51I am pooping my pants because the very kind Richard had told
0:46:54me unequivocally it's good to go.
0:46:57But I thought I was good to go before I even sent it to
0:47:00review, and it turns out I was wrong about that.
0:47:03So what's the deal?
0:47:05And right around the time I'm spiraling into the depths of
0:47:08despair, I get a phone call from Apple.
0:47:11And it's Richard.
0:47:12And he says, hey, you're probably
0:47:14wondering what's going on.
0:47:15I said, yes.
0:47:16Yes, I am.
0:47:18There's something wrong on our end.
0:47:20I'm not entirely sure what it is.
0:47:22But we're working on it.
0:47:23And we'll get it through, I promise.
0:47:25OK.
0:47:26Are you sure?
0:47:27Yep, yep, yep.
0:47:27I'm totally sure.
0:47:29Would you like me to give you a call when it's through?
0:47:32Yes, please.
0:47:33Because I'm really worried.
0:47:35He said, no worries.
0:47:36I will give you a call.
0:47:37And then it was actually, of course, it was like 10 minutes
0:47:39after that that it all went through.
0:47:40He gave me another call.
0:47:41All was good.
0:47:43So sitting in the App Store right now, pending developer
0:47:47release, is the very first release of Call Sheet.
0:47:51All right.
0:47:52Which I'm extremely excited for and I'm
0:47:54extremely thankful for.
0:47:55And actually, before I talk release plans,
0:47:57I should back up a half step.
0:47:57I'm sorry.
0:47:58I should have reordered this in the show notes.
0:48:00We got a lot of feedback from lawyers and people
0:48:04with-- amateur lawyers saying, as John had mentioned a moment
0:48:08ago, oh, it's absolutely copyright.
0:48:10Apple cannot accept anything like that.
0:48:12You're absolutely 100% going to have
0:48:14to use stable diffusion to make fake poster art.
0:48:17I actually had somebody reach out to me.
0:48:19I wish I had their name in front of me.
0:48:20But they said, hey, I'm a producer on such and such
0:48:22and I am giving you permission to use this thing that I
0:48:24have the rights to, which is very kind.
0:48:26I really appreciate that.
0:48:27It's hard to get--
0:48:27Only 700,000 more people you need to get agreements from.
0:48:30Right, exactly.
0:48:31No, but I don't want to besmirch this fellow.
0:48:33It was very kind of him to say that, genuinely.
0:48:35But anyways, a lot of people said, of course,
0:48:38this is never going to work.
0:48:39And a lot of other people said, oh, I've been through this.
0:48:44Here's what you need to do.
0:48:45And so the most concise example of this,
0:48:47and I think most easy to understand,
0:48:49was Ibrahim Thameem, who wrote, I just
0:48:52wanted to suggest something that might help with the App Store
0:48:54rejection you talked about in the last episode of ATP.
0:48:56I spent a lot of time with the same exact issue with my app
0:48:59that used the Movie Database API.
0:49:02What finally got them to accept the app
0:49:03was to include a note below in the review information section.
0:49:08It's weird, but this seems to be what they're looking for.
0:49:10Since then, I've been able to get multiple similar apps
0:49:13approved by providing this exact note.
0:49:15The note is as follows.
0:49:16As mentioned extensively in the app,
0:49:17all imagery and metadata used in this app
0:49:19is from the MovieDB.org API.
0:49:21Therefore, any information regarding
0:49:23permission to use the images or metadata, please refer to
0:49:27and then hit the Movie Database Terms of Use URL, which
0:49:31basically says, I am not a lawyer.
0:49:33Look, everything that's been uploaded to us,
0:49:36as part of uploading it to us, we
0:49:38are asking those who are uploading it,
0:49:41do you have the rights to this?
0:49:43And they have attested yes.
0:49:44So if they have the rights to it,
0:49:46now we have the rights to it because they're
0:49:48granting us rights, and now we're granting you rights.
0:49:50So I think it's kind of like Spider-Man pointing
0:49:52at himself sort of situation.
0:49:54I don't think that's how it works.
0:49:56I like the fact that Ibrahim put the little F-you
0:49:58at the beginning, which is like, as mentioned extensively
0:50:01in the app, which you may or may not have actually looked at.
0:50:06I mean, it's kind of like uploading a web browser
0:50:08and saying, just so you know, every web page this web
0:50:11browser loads is on the web, and that content is not
0:50:14part of our application.
0:50:15And yet Apple will still say, I don't know.
0:50:17I could browse porn, rejected.
0:50:20I mean, there's lots of sort of superstition about do this
0:50:24and they got my thing through.
0:50:25But the problem is, it's such a random number generator,
0:50:28like App Review.
0:50:30Did I get through because of something that I did?
0:50:32Or did it get through just because I was going
0:50:34to get through no matter what at that point?
0:50:35Like Richard said, Casey didn't need
0:50:37to change anything about his app.
0:50:38He didn't need to get agreements with every movie studio.
0:50:40He didn't need to do anything.
0:50:41His app as is was just plain fine,
0:50:44which is what we all thought.
0:50:46Because again, there are apps that are very similar
0:50:48that I've been on the App Store for years and years.
0:50:50And why wouldn't Casey's be fine?
0:50:52It's all about, it's a bunch of humans.
0:50:55And they make mistakes or they're
0:50:57afraid to step over a possible line or whatever else.
0:51:01And so as long as this system is human based,
0:51:05it's going to have human problems.
0:51:06It's going to be inconsistent.
0:51:08It's going to be, they're going to mess up sometimes.
0:51:09You're going to get crappy reviewers sometimes.
0:51:12And if the system wasn't human based,
0:51:14if it was AI based or something, we would have different problems.
0:51:17We wouldn't have no problems.
0:51:19So it's just part of being an iOS developer
0:51:22is you got to play the system.
0:51:24You have to know that, yeah, there's occasional landmines
0:51:27you're going to step on.
0:51:28You don't really know how certain things are going to go.
0:51:31And you kind of just build that into your expectations.
0:51:33And we can rage and we can fight against it.
0:51:35And we can say app review sucks.
0:51:36We can say we shouldn't need to do this, et cetera.
0:51:39And that's all.
0:51:40Sometimes we need to fight that fight.
0:51:41But usually we just have to work within the system the way it is.
0:51:44But here's the thing with the system.
0:51:45You mentioned it being AI powered.
0:51:47Like it could be worse.
0:51:48It could be like no humans involved.
0:51:49But we have the worst of both worlds.
0:51:51We have fallible humans, but also we
0:51:53don't have the humanity that comes with them.
0:51:56What we would expect, maybe not in Casey's case,
0:51:58but in other cases where people get angry about things,
0:52:00is like in actual human relationships between humans
0:52:03or even just relationships between companies,
0:52:06a thing called reputation exists.
0:52:08There is a level of trust that gets built up.
0:52:10Like Panic, the software developer Panic,
0:52:14should be treated differently by Apple than I am,
0:52:19or than Casey is.
0:52:20Because they have such a long history of such high quality
0:52:23applications, there is trust built up
0:52:26from literal decades of working with this company
0:52:29and these same people.
0:52:30When humans relate to each other, it's not all the same.
0:52:33So app review, everybody's the same.
0:52:35Everyone's supposedly treated the same.
0:52:36That's supposed to be fair.
0:52:37But what it doesn't allow to happen is to like,
0:52:40let's give Panic the benefit of the doubt.
0:52:42Let's assume that they're not secretly doing like--
0:52:46let's not assume the worst of them.
0:52:47Let's give them a review who actually looks at their app
0:52:49and knows that it doesn't contain a video player.
0:52:51You know what I mean?
0:52:51Like there should be different treatment.
0:52:53There is different treatment for Microsoft, Google, Adobe,
0:52:56the big companies that are big competitors
0:52:58or that Apple needs or whatever.
0:52:59So that does exist, as we've talked about.
0:53:01But I feel like the next level down,
0:53:03like we want-- if it's humans to humans,
0:53:05I want the advantages of it being a human powered process
0:53:08in addition to the disadvantages.
0:53:10Now I just feel like we just get the disadvantages
0:53:12and there are no advantages.
0:53:13And whether that's an advantage like, oh, Casey gets to talk--
0:53:16you know, Casey assumed when he talked to a human,
0:53:18he'd be able to work it out.
0:53:19Because at that point, he's getting higher bandwidth
0:53:22treatment.
0:53:23And to Casey's point earlier, wouldn't it
0:53:25have been easier to skip all that time
0:53:27that we've wasted both of our time and energy
0:53:29before this five second phone call?
0:53:31This five second phone call, granted, it's not as scalable.
0:53:33You know, people-- after you can't be calling everybody
0:53:35on the phone or whatever.
0:53:36But if Apple had put the amount of effort
0:53:38they put into that phone call into one or two
0:53:40of those earlier reviews, this whole problem
0:53:42could have been avoided.
0:53:43So I still feel like--
0:53:44I'm not saying that they have to be perfect.
0:53:46There's always going to be mistakes.
0:53:47But if it's going to be human powered,
0:53:49I want some of the advantages of human review.
0:53:52And part of those advantages is the ability
0:53:54to build up trust and a reputation over time
0:53:56for good developers.
0:53:57Which again, may not apply to Casey with his handful of apps
0:53:59that he's put out.
0:54:00But the other developers--
0:54:01Are you saying he's a bad developer?
0:54:03No, but I'm just saying like--
0:54:04I understand.
0:54:05Some developer-- he's not Panic, right?
0:54:07He's not Adobe.
0:54:07He's not Microsoft.
0:54:08He's not one of those giant companies.
0:54:09And he's also not a small developer
0:54:11who has like decades and decades of-- you know,
0:54:13he's not Underscore.
0:54:14You know what I mean?
0:54:15Those type of relationships built up over time saying,
0:54:18has Underscore been sneaking bad stuff in there?
0:54:20Is he stealing people's contacts?
0:54:21Is he making gambling apps for children?
0:54:23No, no, no.
0:54:24He's not doing any of that.
0:54:25So he should have a higher level of trust than, hey,
0:54:28we've never heard of this developer,
0:54:29and I have no idea what this app is.
0:54:31Well, but on the other hand, though, I mean, look, again,
0:54:33the system has a lot of flaws.
0:54:35But I also love the fact that everyone
0:54:38gets a similar level of BS.
0:54:40[LAUGHTER]
0:54:43That there aren't--
0:54:44I mean, there is just for Adobe and Google and Microsoft.
0:54:47Yeah, but like Facebook--
0:54:49Netflix.
0:54:50Facebook isn't able to break a certain rule much more
0:54:53than we can.
0:54:54But when they break it--
0:54:55Facebook gets that in the other direction.
0:54:56They get extra scrutiny.
0:54:57Well, but when they break a rule,
0:55:00they still can't release the app,
0:55:01but they aren't kicked out of the developer program forever.
0:55:04There is some big company privilege for sure.
0:55:07And there have been occasional special deals made.
0:55:11There was that rumor that seemed pretty well-backed
0:55:13that Netflix was not paying the 30% for some time.
0:55:17And again, as I've said many years in the past,
0:55:20that's appropriate.
0:55:21Apple should do that.
0:55:22It makes sense to do it.
0:55:23It would be dumb not to do that.
0:55:24Anyway, so the system is not perfect.
0:55:26But overall, it does work mostly the same for most people
0:55:32most of the time.
0:55:34And so that is a little more comforting.
0:55:36And it's probably better than the alternative
0:55:38of the big companies get much better reviewers,
0:55:42and then the rest of us get only Casey's first level reviewer.
0:55:45[LAUGHTER]
0:55:47Right, so I think the point that Ibrahim and a few other people
0:55:51have said who have also used the stuff from the movie database
0:55:54is that they want-- I'm putting a lot of words
0:55:56in a lot of people's mouths here.
0:55:58But it seems to me that the general gist of it
0:56:00is that Apple wants to be able to say, look,
0:56:04this person or this company or whatever,
0:56:06at least on the surface, seems to have some sort of rights
0:56:09to the content that they're presenting.
0:56:11And by using the movie database API,
0:56:13they have granted me those rights.
0:56:15And presumably on the ingestion side,
0:56:18like I was saying a minute ago, whoever's uploading this stuff,
0:56:20they're claiming to have these rights.
0:56:22Doesn't mean they do.
0:56:23But at least they're claiming to.
0:56:24So the movie database feels like, for right or wrong,
0:56:26they're in the clear.
0:56:27I'm not saying that's factual.
0:56:28I'm just saying that that's what they feel like.
0:56:30And then Apple can say, well, look,
0:56:32this app developer says they got the rights from there.
0:56:34Don't sue me.
0:56:36Don't sue Apple, Disney.
0:56:38Sue either the movie database or this Casey List character.
0:56:41Sue them.
0:56:42Again, maybe this is just a circumstantial--
0:56:44I think it was John that said that earlier.
0:56:45Hi, this is Casey.
0:56:46And maybe this doesn't have anything to do with it.
0:56:49But enough people have said similar things
0:56:52that it makes me think that that might be factual.
0:56:54Yeah, these all sound like good hacks
0:56:56for trying to get through those source reviewers
0:56:58that you got who just aren't paying enough attention
0:56:59to your app.
0:57:00And you just need to find some way
0:57:01to find some words that their eyes are going to fall across
0:57:04and go, oh, that makes me feel better about it.
0:57:06Because again, Richard didn't say
0:57:08you need to add the statement.
0:57:09Richard didn't say you need to get this agreement.
0:57:11He didn't say anything.
0:57:12He said, you're good to go.
0:57:13Because he, I think, by the time he called you on the phone,
0:57:15understood what your app was about.
0:57:18As mentioned extensively in the app, as Ian said,
0:57:20maybe you should have mentioned it more extensively
0:57:22in your app.
0:57:23Maybe your launch screen should be powered by TMDB API.
0:57:27In any case, so what are the plans for launch?
0:57:29So as we record, what is it today?
0:57:31The 26th of July.
0:57:33I'm not quite ready to hit the Go button.
0:57:35But I think the plan is-- and this is just
0:57:38between us ATP listeners-- I think
0:57:40the plan is on Monday, the 7th of August,
0:57:43that is the intention.
0:57:45Monday, the 7th of August, the app will go live.
0:57:47My intention is in the next 24 to 48 hours,
0:57:50I am going to cut off the previous member-only perk
0:57:54of the test flight.
0:57:56But hand to God, this app is much better
0:57:59because of all of the people that used it
0:58:02before it went to app review.
0:58:04And I'm really appreciative of all the people
0:58:06that signed up to try it, that signed up at ATP.com/join.
0:58:10I'm appreciative of all of you who have sent me feedback.
0:58:13Almost all of it was extremely useful and extremely actionable.
0:58:16Some of it was not.
0:58:17But that's how it goes.
0:58:20And it's been surprisingly pleasurable for me
0:58:26to get all of this feedback and to work through problems
0:58:29that I didn't see because I'm too close to it.
0:58:31And if I'm completely honest, the reason
0:58:34I did all this originally was because I was trying
0:58:36to juice ATP memberships.
0:58:38But it actually ended up working out really nice for me
0:58:40in the sense that it worked out nicely for call sheets.
0:58:42So I'm really thankful for it.
0:58:44I appreciate if you spent any time looking at the app
0:58:46and sending feedback and so on.
0:58:49But yeah, on Monday, August 7th, that is the plan.
0:58:52I plan to release then probably 9 in the morning Eastern.
0:58:56But we'll talk about it when we get closer.
0:58:58Or maybe I'll certainly be tooting about it on Mastodon.
0:59:02Maybe I'll be threading it.
0:59:03We'll talk about that potentially in a minute.
0:59:04There are no precise app release times in the App Store.
0:59:07Well, there's that too.
0:59:08That's true.
0:59:09But anyways, the idea is on Monday the 7th.
0:59:12And genuinely, I'm really, really excited.
0:59:13I'm really scared, but I'm really excited.
0:59:15I hope the damn thing works.
0:59:18And I'm really looking forward to it.
0:59:20So on Monday the 7th, that's what's gonna happen.
0:59:23- It works and it's gonna be great.
0:59:24You'll see.
0:59:25- I appreciate it.
0:59:25All right, continuing on the followup that will not end,
0:59:28and that's in no small part my fault.
0:59:29Hi, this is Casey.
0:59:31On upgrade 468, an anonymous Apple engineer
0:59:33talked to the wrong podcast about Mac Pro stuff.
0:59:36What the hell is this?
0:59:37- I know, right?
0:59:38- We are, I have endured hours of Mac Pro bullshit.
0:59:43I mean content.
0:59:44I have endured hours of it.
0:59:46And I, the hell with you two.
0:59:49I don't get the benefit of getting this feedback
0:59:51to lord over these two jerks.
0:59:54I quit.
0:59:55Everyone's fired.
0:59:56You're all fired and I quit.
0:59:57Anyway, upgrade 468, which other than this moment
1:00:01is one of my favorite podcasts, except right now.
1:00:03I hate it right now.
1:00:04But anyway, upgrade 468, an anonymous Apple engineer
1:00:08working on the GPU team said the following,
1:00:10I presume this was John that transcribed this.
1:00:12Thank you, John.
1:00:13The Apple engineer said, "The quad chip has been canned
1:00:16with no plans to return.
1:00:18For context, we are actively developing
1:00:20what will presumably be the M5 chip.
1:00:22And the quad chip was only ever spec'd for the M1
1:00:25and removed late in the project.
1:00:26There are no plans to create a quad chip
1:00:28through at least the M7 generation.
1:00:30My understanding is that the quad required too much effort
1:00:32for too small a market.
1:00:33Something interesting that may come in the M8
1:00:36and future generations is called multi-die packaging.
1:00:39This allows the CPU and GPU parts of the chip
1:00:41to be fabricated on different dies and packaged together,
1:00:44much like how two max chips make an ultra.
1:00:47With this design, it's conceivable that we could have
1:00:49three, four, or five, or more GPU dies
1:00:51with one or two CPUs for a graphics powerhouse
1:00:54or vice versa for CPU workstation
1:00:56that doesn't need as much GPU grunt.
1:00:59However, as far as I know, no such plans exist yet."
1:01:02John, you have the floor.
1:01:03- So some of this is old information.
1:01:06We knew the quad was canned.
1:01:07We knew it was only planned for the M1, so on and so forth.
1:01:09So the new information is, "Oh, and by the way,
1:01:11we talked in a past episode, so they could do the quad
1:01:13in the M3 generation or something."
1:01:15It's like, no, this rumor, again,
1:01:17I want to emphasize that upgrade cannot and does not vouch
1:01:20for this anonymous thing 'cause we get anonymous feedback.
1:01:23It just, you know, this is what they say.
1:01:25This is what they're claiming.
1:01:26So just, I don't want to, if this turns out not to be true,
1:01:28don't blame upgrade and don't blame us.
1:01:30It's, you know, you just sometimes
1:01:31you get anonymous feedback,
1:01:32but this is what this thing, this person claims.
1:01:36They said, "Not only is the quad not coming anytime soon,
1:01:39there are zero plans for it up through the M7."
1:01:42This, by the way, shows you how long the timelines are
1:01:44and hardware stuff has to be planned out
1:01:45years and years in advance for this stuff.
1:01:48Plans can, of course, change,
1:01:50but this really shows what Apple is thinking,
1:01:53if this rumor is true, about the directions.
1:01:56It's not like, "Oh, we couldn't do the quad.
1:01:58It was too expensive, and, you know,
1:02:00the M2 is not that different from the M1,
1:02:02but we'll revisit this later."
1:02:04It's more like, "We couldn't do the quad.
1:02:06It's too expensive, and, by the way, forget about the quad."
1:02:09Just forget about it.
1:02:10We're just gonna plan out our chips.
1:02:12We're gonna go M3, M4, M5, M6, M7.
1:02:15We'll just plan out our long five-year,
1:02:17six-year, 10-year plan.
1:02:18Don't even worry about the quad.
1:02:20It doesn't need to be anywhere on there.
1:02:21We don't need it.
1:02:22The multi-chip packaging,
1:02:23we've talked about that back in the day
1:02:25when we were originally talking about the, you know,
1:02:26Jade 4C and everything, and chiplet architectures
1:02:29in the city of chips and different ways
1:02:31to put multiple dies in the same package.
1:02:33This is before we knew about the Ultra, really,
1:02:35but, yes, of course, that is a conceivable approach,
1:02:37but if this rumor is true,
1:02:40if this anonymous, you know, inside tip is true,
1:02:44it tells you what Apple thinks
1:02:47of the future of the Mac line,
1:02:49and what it thinks is that it does not need
1:02:51to have anything more powerful than the Ultra.
1:02:55Obviously, you know, the M3 will be,
1:02:57the M3 Ultra will be more powerful than the M2 Ultra,
1:02:59and up to the M4, you know, they'll get faster over time,
1:03:02but it seems like they think that class of chip
1:03:06is all they're going to need.
1:03:08What that says about the Mac Pro,
1:03:09whether they keep shipping that big tower case,
1:03:11or whether they don't, or whatever,
1:03:12is not that important, unless you're one of those people
1:03:15who really needs those PCI slots,
1:03:17but what this really says to me is they think
1:03:21that if you're doing something with a Mac right now,
1:03:24or you have to wait for the computer,
1:03:25they're not going to do anything to help you,
1:03:30other than give you one that is incrementally faster
1:03:32than you have now.
1:03:33Like, there's not, they could get more performance.
1:03:36Like, there is more performance to be had.
1:03:38So in any realm, GPU or CPU, you could get a PC
1:03:42that has more GPU cores, much bigger, you know,
1:03:47more CPU cores, much bigger GPU,
1:03:49that would do your task faster,
1:03:51assuming it's a cross-platform app,
1:03:52or there's some equivalent, or whatever.
1:03:54But they're like, no, if you get a Studio or a Mac Pro,
1:03:56which is basically the same, whatever speed that does it at,
1:03:59I know you could get a PC that does the task twice as fast
1:04:03because it has twice as many cores,
1:04:04but we're never going to sell a machine that's like that.
1:04:06So if you sort of look at the PC market and you say,
1:04:09here is the sort of performance ceiling for CPU and GPU
1:04:12for personal computers within some reasonable price ceiling,
1:04:17Apple is always going to be a fairly significant step
1:04:19below that, because they're just not going to build anything
1:04:22that can compete with the high end,
1:04:24because they're saying we're not going to build something
1:04:26that's like a quad, which means they're gonna build,
1:04:28the biggest thing they're gonna build is an Ultra,
1:04:30and we kind of know the thermal envelope of the Ultra,
1:04:32the machine they put it in.
1:04:34This rumor is saying is basically,
1:04:35it's like, look, if we can't fit it in the Mac Studio case,
1:04:37we're not gonna make it,
1:04:39because if we needed something bigger,
1:04:42I really don't think they're gonna make an Ultra
1:04:44that's too big to fit in the Mac Studio case, for example.
1:04:46The M6 Ultra will fit in the Mac Studio case
1:04:49because that's what that chip is designed for.
1:04:52But you could build something with more cores
1:04:55that would be faster, that would fit in the Mac Pro case,
1:04:57and this rumor is saying Apple does not plan
1:04:59to do that at all.
1:05:00And that's fine for people who don't really wait
1:05:03for their computers to do much of anything,
1:05:06but if you're currently waiting on your computer
1:05:08and you're like, boy, I wish this could be faster,
1:05:10yeah, next year it will be faster,
1:05:11but if you're like, but this could be twice as fast
1:05:14as if I had twice as many CPU cores,
1:05:16Apple's like, it could be,
1:05:17but we're not gonna make that machine for you.
1:05:19And that may be fine, because most people don't need that.
1:05:23But it is disappointing on multiple levels.
1:05:26Obviously it's disappointing to me,
1:05:27and I think they should make that machine
1:05:28because it's an exciting thing to pursue,
1:05:29and so on and so forth.
1:05:32But it does mean that a certain section of the market
1:05:35that continues to think, well, maybe next year
1:05:38they'll make one, and maybe this Mac Pro
1:05:39is just an interim step.
1:05:40This rumor turns out to be true.
1:05:41Those people who don't listen to this podcast probably
1:05:44are gonna be like, as the years pass, they're gonna be like,
1:05:46huh, I guess Apple's just not gonna do that anymore,
1:05:50and they'll be disappointed.
1:05:51And I do wonder if we're not just going through
1:05:53this cycle again that we've gone through
1:05:55a couple of times where Apple sort of
1:05:57loses interest in the Mac Pro level hardware,
1:05:59and either stops making it or makes some
1:06:01that's disappointing, and then Pro users get angry,
1:06:03and then Apple apologizes and tries to make a new one.
1:06:07That's not a healthy cycle, but the two alternatives are,
1:06:12we're in that cycle again, and there's gonna be
1:06:14some equivalent over the round table five years from now,
1:06:17where there'll be some crisis and people
1:06:18are gonna be complaining.
1:06:19Or there won't be that crisis, and Apple is just
1:06:22stepping back from that market entirely.
1:06:25And I think stepping back from that market entirely is,
1:06:27again, I think it's a bad idea, but it's also,
1:06:29not for the reasons you think, like setting aside GPUs,
1:06:32because I wanna set that aside for a second.
1:06:33Just CPU, the Mac Studio is small,
1:06:37and there's only so much CPU heat generation
1:06:42you can put in that case.
1:06:43Again, setting aside GPU, pretend the GPU is as small
1:06:46as you could possibly make it.
1:06:47You can make and use more CPU cores
1:06:50for things that are highly parallel.
1:06:52Maybe Apple doesn't care about those things,
1:06:54like 3D rendering in Blender or whatever,
1:06:57whatever tests that you have that can actually spread
1:06:58across all the CPU cores.
1:07:01Even something as simple as compiling.
1:07:02If you have a huge application, I imagine,
1:07:04if Xcode is doing its job, it could use 24, 48 cores
1:07:09if you're building some gigantic thing, maybe.
1:07:11I don't know what the best examples of multi-CPU things are,
1:07:14but those applications exist, and Apple is basically saying,
1:07:19even though you could use more CPU cores,
1:07:20we're not going to sell them to you.
1:07:23And you can get them from Intel,
1:07:24'cause Intel will sell you something
1:07:26with 56 cores right now, and you need a big case for it.
1:07:29And we do have a big case, but we're not gonna put
1:07:31any CPUs like that in there.
1:07:33And that's always going to be disappointing and limiting.
1:07:35The GPUs now, getting to them,
1:07:38this is actually a separate issue,
1:07:39because Apple could, at any point in the future, say,
1:07:43oh, and by the way, we've decided to bring back
1:07:44external GPU support, whether it's an Apple GPU
1:07:46or a third party, like, that option is always there.
1:07:49Even if it's just for compute or whatever,
1:07:51they can always do that, but the CPU thing is actually worse,
1:07:54because you can't add more CPU cores with a card.
1:07:57So as long as Apple continues to make a thing
1:07:58with card slots, at the M5 generation,
1:08:01if people are complaining or they think there's some market
1:08:03they need to go after, they can come back with the FPGA card,
1:08:06like the afterburner, right?
1:08:07But they can also say, hey, we have an external GPU,
1:08:11or some machine learning thing, like,
1:08:13those slots exist, Apple can use them.
1:08:15There's nothing about the lack of a quad
1:08:17that precludes that.
1:08:18What the lack of the quad kills is big multi-core CPUs,
1:08:22because where are the CPU cores gonna come from?
1:08:24Now, the whole idea of being able to rebalance them,
1:08:26let's make one with lots of CPUs and few GPUs or vice versa,
1:08:30that's cool and all, but if you have to fit it
1:08:32within the MacStudio thermal envelope,
1:08:35there's only so much horse trading you can do there,
1:08:38like, oh, I wanna have five more CPU cores,
1:08:40but then I have to reduce my GPU, and you can't,
1:08:43you can never put as much GPU as you want in there,
1:08:46because there's just not enough thermal headroom,
1:08:49and if you start pushing out the GPU for more CPU cores,
1:08:52you can't push out all the GPU,
1:08:54you have to drive the display somehow,
1:08:55so I think that's interesting,
1:08:58and I think if they actually use that technology,
1:09:01they should use it to make, essentially,
1:09:03the equivalent of the quad that's not actually a quad.
1:09:05It would be an ultra, but there would be
1:09:08two much bigger ultras with different ratios of stuff,
1:09:10and then like a third-party GPU or something like that, so.
1:09:13Anyway, we'll see how this goes.
1:09:15I don't know how much credence to put in this rumor.
1:09:17It is pretty definitive saying that
1:09:20we're just not gonna do this for a long, long time,
1:09:23but boy, if there's not, because there was pushback before,
1:09:26like, why did they have the Mac roundtable?
1:09:28The Mac Pro was a big part of that,
1:09:30but part of what people wanted was make me a fast computer
1:09:34and make it expandable and quote-unquote modular.
1:09:36Remember the big discussion we had,
1:09:37what the heck did they mean by modular?
1:09:38I think what I thought they meant by modular,
1:09:40I made it, said it as a joke, but also kind of serious,
1:09:43was they mean the monitor is not part of the computer.
1:09:46That's one definition of modular.
1:09:48And Apple makes a modular computer,
1:09:50multiple modular computers,
1:09:51where the monitor is not part of it.
1:09:53One of them is called the Mac Studio.
1:09:55That does fulfill one of the things
1:09:57that roundtable was about,
1:09:58because people were kind of pissed at like,
1:10:00I Mac Pro is an amazing computer,
1:10:02but what if I don't want the screen
1:10:04connected to the computer part?
1:10:05Please make me a modular computer, and they did.
1:10:07I mean, they made the trash can and that was modular too,
1:10:09but that was also a problem, right?
1:10:11That was before that.
1:10:12But the Mac Studio does fulfill a lot of that promise.
1:10:15But I do wonder if we're not just headed
1:10:17for another collision of people saying, come on, Apple,
1:10:20insert competitor name here, offers me an 87 core CPU,
1:10:25and Nvidia is making this monster GPU
1:10:27that you can't compete with,
1:10:29but you offer me nothing that can do anything like that,
1:10:31and I have to leave your ecosystem and use PC instead,
1:10:35because you don't compete in that category anymore.
1:10:38Maybe Apple will say, fine, see ya, I don't care.
1:10:40We don't sell that many of those anyway.
1:10:42But I do think that is probably a mistake.
1:10:44Like I said, the Vision Pro uses a chip from a Mac,
1:10:47granted a lower powered chip from a Mac,
1:10:49but it does not use an iPhone chip.
1:10:51So I really do think Apple should reconsider these plans.
1:10:54It doesn't mean they need to make a quad,
1:10:55'cause maybe that's the wrong approach
1:10:57to making a Mac Pro caliber system on a chip or whatever.
1:11:01Maybe trying to put four of them together is too much.
1:11:04Maybe they want to revisit and say,
1:11:06we're going to make the Ultra,
1:11:07and the extreme will be basically two things
1:11:11that are bigger than a Mac shoved together like the Ultra.
1:11:14You know what I mean?
1:11:14There are other potential options,
1:11:16but that's not mentioned in these plans either.
1:11:17But I'm just the idea guy, Apple, you gotta run with this.
1:11:21My idea is don't do this,
1:11:23because totally giving up the high end
1:11:25is something that Apple has pretty much never done.
1:11:28And every generation of Mac they've ever made,
1:11:30they've at least sorta kinda tried
1:11:33to be in the conversation on the day of release
1:11:35with their high end computers to say,
1:11:37whatever the biggest, baddest PC can do,
1:11:40we can do some handpicks out of things better.
1:11:44And I think it's going to be harder and harder
1:11:46to be able to say that if they just say,
1:11:48we are never gonna make anything
1:11:49that can't fit in the studio case.
1:11:51So this is a disappointing rumor,
1:11:54and Apple should see me after class.
1:11:56- Everything you can do, I can do better.
1:11:59No, it was surprising even to me.
1:12:02And as much as I like to give you two
1:12:03a hard time about the Mac Pro,
1:12:05I mean, I do want the Mac Pro to exist.
1:12:08I think there's something to be said for Apple
1:12:10having a no holds barred,
1:12:12just all out incredible computer.
1:12:16And I will sit here and debate with you, John,
1:12:19whether or not you need that computer,
1:12:21but nevertheless, I do think it should exist.
1:12:24And it is a bummer that they seem to be letting it go.
1:12:27- Yeah, and it'll be interesting to see how they market.
1:12:29Like, you know how they market,
1:12:30they're always like, oh, they have some graphs,
1:12:32they show it against like old Intel Macs
1:12:33and stuff like that.
1:12:34But even the current graphs that they put against like,
1:12:37PC GPUs are mostly fantasy,
1:12:39but they're just gonna have to stop doing that entirely
1:12:41because they're just gonna be like,
1:12:42no, we're never going to compete with that.
1:12:45But how can we?
1:12:46Like, how can you compete on a, you know,
1:12:48embarrassingly parallel CPU problem
1:12:50when you have half the number of CPU cores?
1:12:52Like no TSMC, you know,
1:12:55fab advantage is going to let you compete with
1:12:58twice the number of CPU cores or more
1:13:00on a highly parallel thing.
1:13:02And the same thing with GPU.
1:13:03So it's very disappointing.
1:13:05- Yeah, but I still, the more I think about this,
1:13:08the more I think that my passing theory from last episode
1:13:11about like, this is really just, you know,
1:13:14the Mac Studio is the Mac Pro.
1:13:17And what we now know as the Mac Pro
1:13:19is just the Mac Studio in a PCI case.
1:13:23The more I think about it,
1:13:24the more I am comfortable with that theory.
1:13:26- I mean, that is what they've shipped,
1:13:28but it's also saying that like,
1:13:29they're not going to make what was previously,
1:13:32the Mac Pro is a slot in the lineup.
1:13:34And what you're saying is,
1:13:35that slot doesn't exist anymore.
1:13:37Instead there's a Mac Studio and Mac Studio with a backpack.
1:13:40- Sort of, except I would characterize it differently.
1:13:42Those are the facts, but I would say that's actually,
1:13:45not only unsurprising, but mostly fine,
1:13:50in the sense that when you look at where
1:13:52high-end computing is these days,
1:13:56Apple doesn't have much of a role in it anymore.
1:13:58Because Apple doesn't get along well with Nvidia,
1:14:01and it hasn't for a long time.
1:14:03And when you look at what kind of roles
1:14:05do the Mac Studio and the Mac Pro not serve very well,
1:14:09most of that market is in the high-end GPU market.
1:14:13That's the biggest area where
1:14:15they're really underserving, I think.
1:14:18And I don't think Apple has been a major player
1:14:21in high-end GPU computing for some time now.
1:14:24- Yeah, but it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
1:14:25They keep making worse and worse machines
1:14:27and eschewing the market,
1:14:29then of course they're not gonna be a player,
1:14:30and then you use, we've talked about this before,
1:14:32then you use the fact that you're not a player
1:14:33to say, well, we don't need to be in that market,
1:14:34we're not really a player there anyway.
1:14:36You can get out of any market
1:14:37by slowly doing that to yourself.
1:14:39- That's true, and that is what they've done.
1:14:40However, I don't think this Mac Pro losing its GPU support
1:14:45is as big of a change as we initially thought,
1:14:49simply because that market has already largely left them.
1:14:53And again, through their own doing, you're right,
1:14:55but that market was already mostly gone.
1:14:58So I think having the Mac Pro exist
1:15:00as basically the PCI Express breakout box
1:15:04for the Mac Studio, and having the Mac Studio
1:15:07really be the current Mac Pro for most other needs,
1:15:12I think not only is that clearly the case,
1:15:16but I think that's fine.
1:15:18It's not fine for everyone, but that is fine
1:15:21for most of the market that the Mac Pro still had at all.
1:15:26- Well, that's why I mentioned at the beginning,
1:15:28do you in your work ever have to wait for the computer?
1:15:31Because some people, that's not true.
1:15:33People just don't have to wait for the,
1:15:35and I'm not talking about network,
1:15:36like this webpage is loading slow.
1:15:37Are you waiting for the local computer
1:15:39to grind through something using disk I/O,
1:15:42using CPU, or using GPU?
1:15:43And 99% of Apple's customers,
1:15:45especially now Apple Silicon,
1:15:47they don't wait for anything.
1:15:48They're waiting for the network,
1:15:50but they're not waiting for,
1:15:51oh, the CPU is grinding over this, or the GPU.
1:15:54Maybe game playing, you could say,
1:15:55I wish I had higher frame rates,
1:15:56but you're playing the game, it's fine.
1:15:58But there are some people who are waiting for the computer,
1:16:00and for them to be out there knowing
1:16:02that this thing that takes them 15 minutes
1:16:04could take them seven, right now,
1:16:06not next year on a computer,
1:16:07but right now it could take them seven,
1:16:08because they could have doubled the CPU cores,
1:16:10and their thing is using all the CPU cores,
1:16:13and knowing that Apple quote, unquote,
1:16:16could make that machine, and Intel does,
1:16:18but they're not gonna ship it to them,
1:16:19is gonna be frustrating to those people.
1:16:21So we're gonna be losing a new section of people,
1:16:23not the GPU people who already left,
1:16:25not the people who wanted the stuff
1:16:26that Apple hasn't offered in years and years,
1:16:28but the people who pretty much up to this point expected
1:16:32that Apple would be in contention with,
1:16:35you know, again, with CPU power mostly,
1:16:37and second, there's no GPU power,
1:16:39to do whatever it is that they wait on their computer doing.
1:16:42Now, a big part of that is video stuff,
1:16:44where I feel like Apple still is in contention,
1:16:46because they do have those dedicated units
1:16:49inside the SOCs for doing video.
1:16:51So I think the video people will actually be,
1:16:53should be mostly happy,
1:16:55because I don't think in a lot of those cases,
1:16:57adding more of those video units would be useful to them,
1:17:00'cause they're usually just like trying to encode one,
1:17:03or maybe two videos at the same time,
1:17:04but not like 20 of them at once.
1:17:06But I do think there's another class of people
1:17:09who wait for their computer to finish stuff,
1:17:12who now are going to know that they could be waiting
1:17:15half as long because their thing is parallelizable,
1:17:17and that hasn't been the case before.
1:17:18I try to think back, like, was there a time
1:17:20when Apple was just opted out completely?
1:17:22There have been dark times where they've done a poor job,
1:17:24but never has there been a time where they say,
1:17:27we're not even going to try to compete.
1:17:30And to be clear, this rumor doesn't really say that,
1:17:32because we don't know what the M6 looks like.
1:17:35We're just assuming it's gonna have the same ratio
1:17:38of CPU, GPU, power units, and efficiency cores
1:17:41as they currently do.
1:17:42We have no idea.
1:17:43So I don't, even if this isn't true,
1:17:46you may be reading too much into it
1:17:47to think they're not gonna compete at all,
1:17:49but it sure seems like that they subscribe to the idea
1:17:52that, yeah, you'll wait a little bit,
1:17:54but look, what are you gonna do, switch to PC?
1:17:55Probably not, so it'll be fine.
1:17:57- All right, Matt Rigby writes,
1:18:01"This is in response to Marco's passing reference
1:18:03"to having trouble with writing
1:18:04"or mounting external drives on USB.
1:18:06"In our somewhat extensive testing
1:18:08"and troubleshooting at work,
1:18:09"Apple Silicon Macs seem to have trouble
1:18:11"with external USB-mounted SSDs
1:18:13"that are larger than two terabytes.
1:18:15"Specifically, we encounter these issues using docs
1:18:17"that include the Asmodai ASM235 USB-SATA chipset.
1:18:23"This unfortunately includes the very popular OWC drive doc
1:18:25"and other iterations of the Blackmagic
1:18:27"Rackmount SATA dock, among others.
1:18:30"We haven't found any immediate solutions
1:18:31"to this issue thus far,
1:18:33"but we've had success with a variety
1:18:34"of Nintendo-level plasticky docs from StarTech
1:18:37"that don't utilize this chipset.
1:18:38"So in short, Marco, you're not alone.
1:18:40"There's definitely some chipset, driver,
1:18:42"or Apple Silicon weirdness out there.
1:18:44"Sorry, I don't have a solution."
1:18:46- Yeah, my solution has just been
1:18:48try to rely less on USB-connected drives
1:18:51that are always connected.
1:18:53So that's why I moved my time machine to Synology.
1:18:57That was the big one, and it's just, yeah.
1:19:00There's something weird with Apple Silicon Macs
1:19:02and many USB drive enclosure type things or SSDs,
1:19:06and I just, I gave up.
1:19:09Like, I'm like, I can't keep dealing with this.
1:19:11So just move that role to the network.
1:19:13- I mean, you should check to see
1:19:14if you have this chipset thing,
1:19:15and because a lot of those enclosures are fairly cheap,
1:19:18like you can get an enclosure for like 20 or 30 bucks,
1:19:20you might wanna just try a couple different enclosures
1:19:22and see if it solves the problem.
1:19:23- The problem is it's intermittent.
1:19:25So it might take me months of troubleshooting
1:19:27to slowly figure that out,
1:19:28and it's just, it's not worth the hassle.
1:19:31- Indeed.
1:19:32Wall Street Journal writes that Threads
1:19:34is already losing its allure for users
1:19:36adding urgency for new features.
1:19:39This was, I think, a couple of days ago now,
1:19:41but anyway, for a second week in a row,
1:19:43the number of daily active users declined on Threads,
1:19:45falling to 13 million, down about 70% from a July 7 peak,
1:19:49according to estimates
1:19:50from market intelligence firm SensorTower.
1:19:53The average time users spend on the iOS and Android apps
1:19:55has also decreased to four minutes from 19 minutes.
1:19:58The average time spent for Android users in the US
1:20:00dropped to five minutes
1:20:02from a peak of 21 minutes on launch day,
1:20:04according to SimilarWeb, a digital data and analytics company.
1:20:07Meta executives have said
1:20:09that they expected an eventual decline
1:20:10after the app gained more than 100 million signups
1:20:12within a week of its launching earlier this month.
1:20:14They have signaled that they don't see the fall off
1:20:16as worrisome and have said
1:20:17that they are working on additional features,
1:20:19meta aims to increase the number of users
1:20:21and improve the experience
1:20:21before trying to monetize the platform.
1:20:24- I like that last sentence, 'cause it's like,
1:20:26oh, don't worry, we're adding features,
1:20:28so come back, they're gonna be really cool,
1:20:30and then we're gonna crap it all up.
1:20:32- Yep.
1:20:32- We're waiting for you, trying to monetize.
1:20:34So come back so we can put ads in your timeline.
1:20:37One of the most fun things,
1:20:39I think I mentioned this one when Threads first came out,
1:20:41I said, obviously, no,
1:20:42they didn't have a chronological timeline,
1:20:43but it's obviously why they needed an algorithmic one,
1:20:45because that's the right choice for most users,
1:20:48and the developers of the application said,
1:20:51oh, don't worry, chronological timeline is coming.
1:20:54And I said, but will I have to re-enable it
1:20:57every single time I launch the app,
1:20:58like I have to in Instagram, and they didn't answer.
1:21:00Well, guess what the answer was?
1:21:02The answer was yes.
1:21:03You will have to re-enable it every time you launch the app,
1:21:05because why would we remember that setting?
1:21:08Like, we want you to see the algorithmic timeline.
1:21:11And yeah, it'll stay on the chronological one,
1:21:13but if the app gets pushed out of memory
1:21:14or you relaunch it, or 24 hours pass,
1:21:17or whatever we decide, guess what?
1:21:18You're back on the algorithmic timeline.
1:21:20Just manually select the chronological timeline every time.
1:21:22I don't see what the problem is.
1:21:23Well, the problem is, that shows that you hate me.
1:21:26So I don't like this app, but yeah,
1:21:28so this is why, one of the reasons I'm very glad
1:21:31that we picked the title from Marcos Ray's
1:21:33100 Million Tire Kickers,
1:21:35'cause they got all users real fast,
1:21:38but you have to do something to keep those users,
1:21:40and despite what the Wall Street Journal says,
1:21:42and it's typical sort of financial business person thing,
1:21:46they need to add features.
1:21:47I'm not sure adding features,
1:21:49lack of features is why people are leaving threads.
1:21:51Like, they came in to kick the tires,
1:21:54and I think what makes people stay
1:21:55is a compelling experience, as they say in business speak,
1:21:59and that has very little to do with the feature set.
1:22:01People went to Twitter and continue to go to Twitter,
1:22:05building their user base up to whatever it currently is,
1:22:07several hundred million, or whatever the down to now,
1:22:09but anyway, because of the experience on Twitter,
1:22:13and Twitter had like no features for a really long time,
1:22:16and granted the bar has been raised,
1:22:18but like, it's not the lack of features
1:22:21that's making people leave.
1:22:22They're leaving, one, because I feel like
1:22:25it's a fragmented market,
1:22:26and two, they were just hopping in to check it out,
1:22:28and they're not entirely sure if it's a place
1:22:30where they're gonna make a home or whatever,
1:22:32they're not sure how it fits into their life,
1:22:34and they're not sure they are really enjoying it,
1:22:38or there's something there that's making it sticky for them,
1:22:40and I think that has nothing to do with lack of features,
1:22:43lack of chronological timeline,
1:22:44lack of editing, any of that stuff,
1:22:46like, because lack of editing, for example,
1:22:49didn't stop Twitter from being,
1:22:51Twitter at its peak had no editing,
1:22:53and that, you know, we complained about it,
1:22:55but it didn't stop Twitter from becoming super important,
1:22:58so I kind of agree with the meta executives who are saying,
1:23:02like, we knew it would drop, and it's fine,
1:23:04like, they can, you know,
1:23:06what they wanna do is build it back up.
1:23:07There's gonna be a big burst of interest,
1:23:09and then people are gonna taper off
1:23:10but it's not like they drop to zero,
1:23:12and the advantage Facebook/meta has is
1:23:16they have the money and time and maybe the will
1:23:19to keep doing this and build it up,
1:23:22like, it's not gonna go, you know,
1:23:24the expectation that it would just say,
1:23:26and soon it will be five billion people,
1:23:28that's unrealistic, but they have time to make a go of it,
1:23:31so I don't think this is a doom and gloom story,
1:23:34but it does show how, you know,
1:23:37what those tire kickers thought.
1:23:39The tire kickers were, most of the tire kickers
1:23:41were not particularly convinced
1:23:42by the experience of using Threads,
1:23:44which mostly has to do with what was it like,
1:23:46like, what's there, what are you reading?
1:23:49Are your friends there?
1:23:50Is there interesting news there?
1:23:51Are you seeing celebrities?
1:23:52Like, do you find the content compelling?
1:23:55Kind of like the same way that what made people stay
1:23:56on Netflix, it's not the quality of the application
1:23:58or the video player, it was, do you like the shows?
1:24:02That's what would make people stay on Threads
1:24:05or any sort of social media type service,
1:24:07and then once you all get there,
1:24:09then your thing will be filled with ads.
1:24:11(laughing)
1:24:13Before trying to monetize the platform,
1:24:15before really making it just a miserable place to be.
1:24:19- So I would like to do a temperature check
1:24:22for the three of us.
1:24:23Hi, this is Casey.
1:24:25What is your Threads usage these days?
1:24:28Because this happened for me and for Jon, at least,
1:24:31it happened before vacation, and I was looking at it,
1:24:34you know, like once or twice a day before vacation,
1:24:36and then vacation happened, and I don't think
1:24:38I've opened it since, and I'm not saying
1:24:40that there's anything wrong with Threads,
1:24:41I'm not saying that it's turned bad or anything like that,
1:24:44but I just kind of forgot about it, so I'm curious,
1:24:48and perhaps we'll start with my concurrent vacationer, Jon.
1:24:52Are you using Threads at all?
1:24:54Are you up, down, or about the same
1:24:56from a couple of weeks ago?
1:24:57- I still try to visit all the apps pretty regularly.
1:25:00Obviously, Mastodon is my main one.
1:25:01I have seen, like, so when Threads came out,
1:25:04I saw a big decline in activity among the people
1:25:06that I follow on Blue Sky.
1:25:09All those qualifiers are important,
1:25:11because my experience is not the same
1:25:13as other people's experience, especially since I tend
1:25:15towards chronological timelines and not algorithmic ones.
1:25:18Threads, where I previously didn't even have a choice
1:25:21of a chronological timeline, I saw the Threads activity
1:25:24drop off after the initial burst as well,
1:25:27and most of the activity I see on Threads
1:25:28has nothing to do with anybody I follow,
1:25:30because it's an algorithmic timeline,
1:25:31and they're just throwing me random stuff in my face,
1:25:33and I think the algorithmic timeline does an okay job.
1:25:36It wasn't totally off the wall of things
1:25:38I might be interested in.
1:25:39It was a reasonable mix of sort of mass-market media stuff
1:25:44plus, like, people that I could conceivably
1:25:47be interested in following or whatever.
1:25:49I will try the chronological timeline,
1:25:52if I can remember to reselect it every frickin' time
1:25:53I launch the app, because they hate their users,
1:25:55and we'll see if that changes things,
1:25:56but I definitely saw less activity,
1:25:59like less posts from the people I follow,
1:26:03even given the algorithm, less replies, less mentions,
1:26:07less long conversations, right?
1:26:09Just, and I feel like that's natural
1:26:11after the initial burst of activity,
1:26:13but the Mastodon experience, like,
1:26:15the Mastodon had a big burst of activity,
1:26:17and it kind of tapered down,
1:26:18but the level it tapered down to,
1:26:20my timeline on Mastodon is more active
1:26:25and more interesting and more engaging to me
1:26:27than my timeline on any other service,
1:26:29but that's just me.
1:26:30I feel like that is not necessarily true of other people.
1:26:33I've heard from a lot of people
1:26:34that they feel like blue sky is that for them,
1:26:36that blue sky is where the interesting conversations
1:26:39are happening, and even though there was a traffic decline
1:26:41when Threads came out, still they feel like blue sky
1:26:44is like their anchor of where, like,
1:26:45the most interesting things are,
1:26:47and I bet that's true of some people in Threads, too,
1:26:49so I don't know how this is going to shake out yet.
1:26:52I feel like Threads did get an important head start
1:26:55on being a mainstream thing,
1:26:56and certainly they still have way more than Mastodon
1:26:59and way more than blue sky, which is still invite only,
1:27:01but I still feel like it's anybody's game,
1:27:05and obviously I'm rooting for Mastodon
1:27:06to be like the slow and steady wins the race,
1:27:08just, you know, no one can stop us
1:27:10because it's open source software
1:27:12and anybody can run a thing or whatever,
1:27:14but, oh, and on that front, Threads continues to claim
1:27:17that they're gonna federate with ActivityPub,
1:27:19so if and when something happens in that area,
1:27:22I'm sure we'll talk about it.
1:27:23- Indeed. Marco, what are you doing with Threads?
1:27:25- Oh, this is Marco, Marco Colon.
1:27:28So far, I am mostly forgetting to open the app
1:27:31because I've just been working a lot on my Mac,
1:27:34which is what I am usually doing most of the time
1:27:36in my adult life, and there is no Mac story yet,
1:27:40and when, I think the most likely Mac story that they add
1:27:44is not gonna be some nice app like Ivory,
1:27:47it's gonna be a web version of the phone app.
1:27:51- Yeah, they said that's coming.
1:27:52- Right, which is, I mean, Instagram has that,
1:27:55it's not great, even the phone app is clunky
1:27:58because there's not multiple account support,
1:28:00so if I wanna have, I have my personal account,
1:28:04and then I have an account for Overcast,
1:28:06and we have an account for ATP, well, on the Mac,
1:28:09I have Ivory always in four column view.
1:28:14I have my personal timeline,
1:28:16then I have my personal mentions,
1:28:17then I have ATP mentions,
1:28:19and then I have Overcast mentions.
1:28:21So I'm keeping track of my personal account
1:28:23and my two work accounts all the time,
1:28:26and I'm able to quickly and easily post from each one,
1:28:29retweet from one to the other, or whatever the case may be.
1:28:32That's how I used Twitter for a decade or whatever,
1:28:37and this is how I now use Mastodon.
1:28:40While Threads has way more people,
1:28:43and in fact, many of the people on Threads,
1:28:45as I mentioned before,
1:28:46the community I have found on Mastodon
1:28:49is wonderful for iOS developers.
1:28:54It is not wonderful for diversity at all.
1:28:58And there's a lot of people
1:29:00who I would love to follow their content,
1:29:02and Mastodon is feeling increasingly more strongly
1:29:07like I'm using desktop Linux.
1:29:09It's like there's only this one subset of nerds
1:29:12that I'm finding here,
1:29:13and again, this is probably mostly on me
1:29:15in the sense that it's hard to find people
1:29:17outside of your circles on the servers,
1:29:19'cause it is less algorithmic,
1:29:20and that's, again, I'm sure that's a lot of my fault,
1:29:23but it feels like this is a chat room
1:29:26for developers and nerds, and that's fine,
1:29:30but there's also other people in my life
1:29:31I wanna hear from and read their stuff
1:29:33and interact with them,
1:29:34and way more people of way more variety
1:29:38that I wanna follow are posting on Threads,
1:29:41and I'm not there most of the time
1:29:43because I'm not browsing it on my phone most of the time.
1:29:46I'm at my Mac.
1:29:47That's where I consume things,
1:29:48and I also don't find the Threads app
1:29:50particularly a good fit for me, necessarily,
1:29:53in the way it works and how it's organized,
1:29:55things like that, so the way I get to Threads
1:29:58is probably gonna end up being via Federation,
1:30:03if that ever happens, and as we've discussed,
1:30:06that's not likely to be a great experience
1:30:09from either direction.
1:30:11The way it's probably gonna work
1:30:12is Threads is going to be very much like Instagram for me.
1:30:16Instagram is an app that I can't use on my Mac,
1:30:20and well, I guess I could use a web interface,
1:30:21but it sucks, so it's an app I don't use on my Mac
1:30:24'cause there's no third-party clients for it.
1:30:28It can't fit into my workflow very well.
1:30:29I have multiple accounts, but I barely use them,
1:30:31and it's very hard to manage,
1:30:33and that's an app that has a ton of people
1:30:36who I'd like to follow, but I usually forget to check it,
1:30:39and I end up checking Instagram
1:30:40maybe once every week or two,
1:30:42and there's a whole pile waiting for me when I get there.
1:30:44I dip in, check a little bit,
1:30:46and then I switch apps at some point,
1:30:48and then I forget about it for the next two weeks.
1:30:50That's probably how Threads is gonna go for me personally
1:30:53for the foreseeable future
1:30:55because Threads is not where I am.
1:30:57It is on my phone, great, I'll check it sometime,
1:31:00but it's not on my Mac.
1:31:02- I totally agree with you, and I do look at Instagram
1:31:07probably more than I should,
1:31:08but I certainly don't look at it near as much
1:31:11as I look at Mastodon now or Twitter in the past,
1:31:14and in no small part,
1:31:15that's because most of the day I'm at my computer,
1:31:17and I wanna use a native app to look at these things,
1:31:20and there isn't one for Instagram,
1:31:21there isn't one for Threads,
1:31:22and there is one for Mastodon, and it's great, so I hear you.
1:31:26- Yeah, the fragmentation is a problem for the,
1:31:29we're all looking for a quote-unquote Twitter replacement
1:31:32or whatever, Twitter had everybody.
1:31:34Twitter had the celebrities, Twitter had the tech nerds.
1:31:37It was the only thing.
1:31:38They got critical mass,
1:31:39and there was no real competing services.
1:31:41Now there's just, there's even celebrity fragmentation.
1:31:45So Mastodon has the nerd-adjacent celebrities.
1:31:48So like a sci-fi author, like a famous sci-fi author
1:31:50is gonna be on Mastodon,
1:31:51but like Tom Cruise is not gonna be on Mastodon,
1:31:54Julia Roberts, whatever, who I respect random movie stars.
1:31:56Like the big stars who are not nerd-adjacent in any way,
1:32:00not on Mastodon right now.
1:32:02Threads has a bunch of celebrities,
1:32:04but those nerd celebrities who are on Mastodon
1:32:06primarily use Mastodon, even if they're also on Threads.
1:32:10So if they're having an interesting conversation,
1:32:13it's probably gonna happen on Mastodon,
1:32:15but only because they're nerd-adjacent.
1:32:17But then they miss out on conversing
1:32:19with the rock and roll stars who are on Threads
1:32:21or on Instagram or are still on Twitter.
1:32:23And so even just, even the mainstream is fragmented.
1:32:25Like obviously the nerds are fragmented.
1:32:28Like it makes lots of historical sense
1:32:30why all the nerds are on Mastodon and everything like that.
1:32:31And I am glad that I have a nerd community there,
1:32:34but I do miss the feeling like,
1:32:38okay, but either two things,
1:32:40either the mainstream is at the same place where I am,
1:32:43which is not currently the case,
1:32:45or at least I know where to go to find the mainstream.
1:32:47And I feel like when I go on Threads,
1:32:48I'm not even getting all the mainstream
1:32:50because I see the people who are still on Twitter.
1:32:52I see the people who are primarily on Mastodon,
1:32:55even though they're technically on Threads.
1:32:57And this, I think is related to why people
1:33:00might've checked out Threads and not be that interested
1:33:02because they see the mainstream fragmentation too.
1:33:04They're like, oh, this isn't as hopping as Twitter was.
1:33:06Maybe if they find their little subset,
1:33:08like a lot of people have found like a good,
1:33:10like niche community on Blue Sky,
1:33:12but Blue Sky doesn't have all the mainstream,
1:33:14celebrity, important, famous people, politicians, companies.
1:33:17Like no one service has that anymore.
1:33:19And I think that like, oh, if you go here,
1:33:22Delta Airlines is here and that funny Comcast account
1:33:26and your favorite celebrity and your favorite sports star,
1:33:29there is no one place where all of them are.
1:33:32And having them all in one place
1:33:33makes that really compelling to the common person.
1:33:37And so now I can feel for someone who's like,
1:33:40no, I tried it, but none of these places
1:33:41are like Twitter used to be.
1:33:42And Twitter is also not like it used to be.
1:33:44So I guess I'll go look at TikTok.
1:33:47That's where we are right now.
1:33:48- I don't see that being resolved anytime soon.
1:33:53I think we're gonna be in this weird fragmented world
1:33:56for the foreseeable future.
1:33:59- Yeah, I tend to agree with that as well.
1:34:02All right, Marco, do you want to talk to us
1:34:03about the Ubiquiti Dream Router
1:34:05and why it's a piece of garbage?
1:34:07- Yeah, so I mentioned the last of,
1:34:09the end of last show.
1:34:11This is Marco.
1:34:12I mentioned that we purchased a new house
1:34:15and that I'll be setting up networking gear and stuff in it.
1:34:19And I was looking at Ubiquiti's new gear.
1:34:21I mentioned in passing, I ordered the Dream Router
1:34:23and I couldn't believe it was only 200 bucks
1:34:25and it seemed like the successor to the Dream Machine,
1:34:28which was their previous cylinder,
1:34:29which I'm literally talking to you through right now.
1:34:32Many people wrote in to point out that the Dream Router,
1:34:36while it looks just like the previous cylindrical
1:34:39Dream Machine, is actually like a cut down model.
1:34:43That's why it's so inexpensive.
1:34:46And in particular, it is apparently very slow
1:34:49to process things and that its slow processor
1:34:54limits its throughput on an internet connection
1:34:56to roughly 700 megabits.
1:34:59And I mentioned I'm getting gigabit fiber.
1:35:00So everyone wrote in to tell me,
1:35:03I should not use the Dream Router.
1:35:04It is too slow and my gigabit fiber will oversaturate it
1:35:09and I won't be able to get my full connection speed
1:35:11and whatever else.
1:35:12First of all, thank you everyone for telling me that.
1:35:13I didn't know any of that.
1:35:15This is great to know and I will try to return it,
1:35:18although their website is currently broken
1:35:19for returns tonight, so I'll figure that out some other time.
1:35:23I love Ubiquiti stuff, but the problem is
1:35:26it goes out of stock constantly
1:35:28because everyone loves Ubiquiti stuff.
1:35:30So the thing I was looking at instead of the Dream Router
1:35:34is the Dream Machine Special Edition.
1:35:36This is a 1U rack mount.
1:35:38It includes a PoE switch like the Dream Router.
1:35:42Doesn't have an AP, but I get separate APs usually,
1:35:45so less important.
1:35:46Has hard drive bay in case I wanna use security cameras.
1:35:49I'll get to that in a little bit.
1:35:50As far as looking at the Dream Machine Special Edition
1:35:52as the alternative here, when I was looking,
1:35:57it was in stock and then when everyone wrote in to tell me
1:35:59I shouldn't get the Dream Router, I thought,
1:36:02oh great, I'll just go order the other one I was looking at.
1:36:04Sold out and it's remained sold out
1:36:06for the entire week and a half since we last recorded.
1:36:09Also during that time, the Dream Rider itself
1:36:11went out of stock.
1:36:12- Cool.
1:36:14- I believe it came back in stock today
1:36:15if anybody wants them, but this is the problem
1:36:18with buying Ubiquiti gear.
1:36:20They are frequently out of stock.
1:36:22Just sold out and you don't know
1:36:23when they're coming back in.
1:36:24You can sign up for the notices
1:36:26and they might come back in stock the next day
1:36:28or the next month or never.
1:36:30You don't know.
1:36:32And there are, you can go on Amazon or eBay
1:36:35and pay some scalper vendor some premium
1:36:38over Ubiquiti's prices, which Ubiquiti stuff
1:36:41is usually pretty affordable.
1:36:42It's part of the reason they got so popular.
1:36:44So you can go pay Cisco level prices for Ubiquiti gear
1:36:47from some retailer somewhere who's ripping you off.
1:36:51But it's very frustrating when you need Ubiquiti gear
1:36:55now, now, now and you go to get it and it's just sold out.
1:36:59But that is ultimately the reason they have this problem
1:37:02is that they are very desirable and good for them.
1:37:06I've used their stuff for a while
1:37:08and I think they've earned their success
1:37:10and there's a reason why I keep buying their stuff.
1:37:12It's really good.
1:37:13And it isn't perfect occasionally.
1:37:15There's a dud, but usually their track record is very high
1:37:18and for what you're getting it's usually
1:37:20pretty remarkably affordable.
1:37:22So all it is to say don't buy the DreamRouter turns out.
1:37:25I'm gonna try to return mine and try to get myself
1:37:27a Dream Machine special edition if I can get it in time.
1:37:29But I probably can't, so I'm probably gonna be sticking
1:37:32with the DreamRouter for a while.
1:37:34- Did you see their like Powerwall thing?
1:37:37I forget what it's actually called.
1:37:37- Yes, the DreamWall, that's $1,000.
1:37:40Otherwise-- - That's really cool,
1:37:41but it was very expensive.
1:37:43- Yes, the DreamWall is basically like,
1:37:46it's similar to the Dream Machine special edition,
1:37:49but it's this like wall hanging thing
1:37:51that weighs like 25 pounds, hangs off your wall
1:37:55and has a built in, I believe an 18 port PoE switch,
1:37:58has a massive PoE switch built in.
1:38:01And it's $1,000.
1:38:02(laughing)
1:38:03It's like okay, well, I see what this is for.
1:38:07I don't need 18 ports even in any switch for the new house.
1:38:12I think I'm gonna need something like six or eight ports.
1:38:15I'm not doing like every room in the house.
1:38:18So I'm just doing kinda key areas that I learned
1:38:22are necessary and that's about it.
1:38:24So anyway, the Dream Machine special edition
1:38:26will be fine if I can get a hold of one.
1:38:28And until then I'll use the DreamRouter and cry.
1:38:31- All right, so Marco, you seem to be deep
1:38:34into home security or maybe home automation
1:38:39or I'm not even sure what's going on,
1:38:40but you have some thoughts about Logitech,
1:38:43Circle View cameras, HomeKit Secure Video and more.
1:38:45What's going on?
1:38:46- Yes, so as mentioned, I have cameras
1:38:50on the outside of my house for various reasons
1:38:53and I've used various ones over the years.
1:38:55So I have the, time wise, my oldest cameras in use
1:38:59are an original pair of Nest outdoor cameras.
1:39:03These are probably something like seven years old by now.
1:39:06They're fine and then I also have used
1:39:09the Logitech Circle View HomeKit Secure Video cameras
1:39:13for about maybe a year on those.
1:39:15HomeKit Secure Video was announced a few years ago
1:39:18or two years ago or something like that.
1:39:19Still to this day, there's only, as far as I can tell,
1:39:23two lines of cameras that work with HomeKit Secure Video.
1:39:26I think it's only the Logitech Circle View
1:39:29and they have a doorbell version and the one I use,
1:39:31like the kind of standalone one,
1:39:33and there's an Eve, there's a couple of Eve cameras,
1:39:35one indoor and one hardwired outdoor one
1:39:39and that's it as far as I can find.
1:39:42As far as I can tell, there are no other
1:39:44HomeKit Secure Video capable cameras.
1:39:48The appeal of HomeKit Secure Video is
1:39:50it sounds amazing on paper and so I kind of wanted
1:39:53to give this update one year in of having this
1:39:56be my primary video system for this house,
1:39:59like how I've been using it and how it's been performing.
1:40:02So the Circle View cameras, they're relatively affordable.
1:40:06They're like I think about 150, $160 each,
1:40:09something like that.
1:40:10They are outdoor or indoor capable.
1:40:12They have 180 degree field of view,
1:40:14which is a blessing and a curse.
1:40:15It's hard to see detail very far away
1:40:18with that kind of perspective but you can put them
1:40:20pretty much anywhere and have a reasonably wide view
1:40:22of whatever you need to see.
1:40:24The selling points of HomeKit Secure Video
1:40:27are that number one, you don't need to pay
1:40:29an additional cloud service.
1:40:31Most of these cameras, like Nest and everything else,
1:40:33you usually have to pay some kind of cloud storage
1:40:36service fee, some new subscription every month.
1:40:38Oh, you gotta pay 20 bucks a month for Nest Protect Secure,
1:40:42whatever, that kind of stuff.
1:40:43HomeKit Secure Video just uses your iCloud storage
1:40:46and the number of cameras you can have on it
1:40:49is related to whatever tier of iCloud storage you have.
1:40:53I have the highest tier of iCloud storage
1:40:55and I believe that entitles me to quote unlimited cameras,
1:40:57I think, lower tiers.
1:40:59I think you get two or three or four or something like that.
1:41:01But HomeKit Secure Video is not continuous recording.
1:41:04It only records motion events.
1:41:07So if you wanna look back and see like,
1:41:09oh, what were the leaves like 18 hours ago?
1:41:13Unless there was a car driving by or a person walking by,
1:41:15you're not gonna see that.
1:41:16It only records motion events
1:41:18and the few seconds around them.
1:41:20So that's kind of how they get around
1:41:22not having too much data being recorded.
1:41:24By comparison, like my old Nest cams were continuous 24/7
1:41:28with I think like a week or a month retention.
1:41:31The upside of that is you have a huge record
1:41:34of everything that happens around you.
1:41:35Downside of that is it uses a ton of data.
1:41:38Like the continuous streaming of that data to the cloud
1:41:43to some data center in Google
1:41:45uses a ton of your ISP local bandwidth.
1:41:48So you need a pretty good connection.
1:41:49You need no data cap really.
1:41:51That's kind of the main differences
1:41:52between those two systems.
1:41:54In terms of actually using HomeKit Secure Video stuff,
1:41:57the other advantage is that it does most or all
1:42:00of its processing locally.
1:42:02So any kind of like object recognition,
1:42:05any kind of intelligence, it's doing all that locally
1:42:08on your local network.
1:42:09It does require you to have some device being a HomeKit hub
1:42:12like an Apple TV or a HomePod, but it does it locally.
1:42:16The great thing about HomeKit Secure Video
1:42:18is that when things happen, they are fast.
1:42:22And this is one thing I absolutely love about it.
1:42:26We have like one on our, like the area
1:42:29where we park our bikes here.
1:42:30And every time someone comes home,
1:42:32they usually come home on a bike.
1:42:34When Adam's coming home from school,
1:42:35I know because I get the tap tap on my watch
1:42:38and I look and it says bike camera.
1:42:40And I know like 15 seconds later,
1:42:42he's gonna walk up to the door and boom, there he is.
1:42:44And it's so fast.
1:42:46And I know too, like when I go down there
1:42:48to get my bike or when I show up,
1:42:50I pull into the bike area and I feel the vibration
1:42:54on my wrist like two seconds later.
1:42:56I'm like, it's that fast, it's awesome.
1:42:59What's also great about the HomeKit video
1:43:02is that it is integrated with iOS very well.
1:43:05So when I get that tap tap on my wrist,
1:43:08I can look at my watch and right there on my watch,
1:43:11it'll show a little thumbnail.
1:43:13If I look at it on my phone and I long press notification,
1:43:16just right there in the long press view for notification,
1:43:18I get the video clip of the motion event right there.
1:43:21It plays right there.
1:43:22I don't even have to open any app or anything.
1:43:24So it's really nice in the Apple ecosystem
1:43:27to use HomeKit Secure Video when it works.
1:43:32- Oh, here we go.
1:43:33- Here's the downsides to the system.
1:43:35The accuracy of the intelligence,
1:43:38like does it recognize things properly?
1:43:40Does it have false positives, does it have false negatives?
1:43:42I have found the accuracy is usually pretty good.
1:43:47It usually identifies people
1:43:49when there actually are people there,
1:43:51although sometimes it thinks a moth flying around at night
1:43:53is a person, I don't know why.
1:43:55But for the most part, it's pretty good recognition.
1:43:59It is way better than my old Nest cams were.
1:44:01I don't have new Nest cams to test.
1:44:03I don't know how good the new ones are.
1:44:05But it's way better than the old ones are.
1:44:07Again, it's way faster to recognize
1:44:09than the old ones are too.
1:44:10And I love those notifications with the video clips.
1:44:13That is great.
1:44:15The problem is the Logitech Circle View Camera
1:44:17is really mediocre.
1:44:19It drops the connection all the time.
1:44:23It'll have long spans where it disconnects.
1:44:26And HomeKit hopefully alerts you
1:44:28when your camera disconnects and reconnects.
1:44:30So I see this happening all day long.
1:44:32And I have, I should point out,
1:44:34I have I think four of these in use on the network.
1:44:37The one in the bike area is super reliable.
1:44:40All the other ones are not.
1:44:42And I don't know why.
1:44:43Frankly, I don't really care why.
1:44:46They're just, they're not.
1:44:47And if you search the internet
1:44:49for solutions on this problem,
1:44:51you see people all reporting the same thing,
1:44:53that their Logitech Circle View Cameras are super unreliable
1:44:56and they drop off the network all the time
1:44:57or they disconnect or whatever else,
1:44:59everyone has solutions that basically amount to
1:45:02turn it off and turn it on again,
1:45:03and it works for a while.
1:45:04- Oh, cool.
1:45:05- If you reset the network in some way,
1:45:08if you reset your router,
1:45:09it'll force them all to disconnect.
1:45:11When you turn it back on,
1:45:12they'll stay connected for a few days,
1:45:14and then they'll start flaking on and off again.
1:45:16People say, oh, I signed a dynamic or a static IP,
1:45:19did that, no change.
1:45:21Put it on 2.4 gigahertz, did that, no change.
1:45:23Like, you know, all these different things you can do
1:45:25to try to debug a glitchy Wi-Fi device.
1:45:28I've done them all.
1:45:29I've had a year to do them all.
1:45:31The Logitech Circle View Cameras are just super flaky,
1:45:34super mediocre.
1:45:35I will have spans of hours or days
1:45:39where a camera will just say no response.
1:45:42Something could be happening,
1:45:43like somebody could be stealing my bike.
1:45:45So I feel like it kind of defeats the purpose of cameras
1:45:49if a lot of the time when you go to look at them,
1:45:52so suppose we're away and a storm comes through.
1:45:57I wanna know, like, what's going on around my house?
1:45:59And maybe on my house,
1:46:01or usually if a storm's coming through,
1:46:03I'll put a camera in the house as well if we leave
1:46:06so I can check and see, like, is there water coming in?
1:46:08That's important stuff.
1:46:09And these cameras are just so unreliable,
1:46:13it's really hard to depend on them for anything.
1:46:16Honestly, I'm torn here,
1:46:17because when it works, it's really nice.
1:46:20And I love all those integration features.
1:46:22I love how incredibly fast it is when it's working.
1:46:25But these cameras are garbage,
1:46:28and no one except Eve makes any other ones.
1:46:31And Eve only has one outdoor capable one,
1:46:34and it requires it to be, like,
1:46:36hardwired by an electrician.
1:46:37You can't just, like, plug it into an outlet.
1:46:39It requires, like, direct wiring,
1:46:40and it has to mount onto a box.
1:46:43And I actually have one sitting here.
1:46:45I've had it for, like, six months,
1:46:47and I haven't had an electrician
1:46:49be able to come out and install it yet,
1:46:50so, like, it's just sitting here waiting.
1:46:51But it's like, that's not gonna work
1:46:53for most of my use of these cameras.
1:46:54Like, you know, obviously I use a lot of these around,
1:46:57and anyway.
1:46:59So there's basically no options except Logitech,
1:47:02and there's one Eve cam.
1:47:06And this, I feel like this is a problem
1:47:07with so much HomeKit stuff.
1:47:09It's a great system, but Apple doesn't make the equipment,
1:47:12and they outsource it to someone,
1:47:14and they make the equipment, and it's,
1:47:15maybe it's okay, maybe it's not,
1:47:17maybe it's buggy, who knows?
1:47:19And that kind of defeats the purpose of the whole system,
1:47:21because, like, it undermines the quality
1:47:23of the whole ecosystem when we don't have good options.
1:47:25So anyway, all this is to, to number one,
1:47:28kind of warn everyone, I really don't recommend
1:47:32the Logitech Circle View,
1:47:34and therefore most of HomeKit Secure Video,
1:47:37because it is really flaky and really unreliable,
1:47:40and it's a shame.
1:47:41The other thing is, I'm curious if anyone
1:47:44has had experience with another system that's really good,
1:47:47that actually is reliable.
1:47:48I'm, in particular, I'm curious, like,
1:47:51is the modern Nest camera good?
1:47:53They've only seemingly updated it once,
1:47:55since I've gotten the other ones, like, seven years ago,
1:47:57it seems like.
1:47:58- It's not Nest anymore, right?
1:48:00So I have both of them, I have the old Nest,
1:48:02and I have a new Post Nest, like, whatever it's called now,
1:48:05Google Home.
1:48:06- Yeah, the one that uses Google Home, yeah.
1:48:07- Yeah, and I mean, my indoor one,
1:48:10or so both of these don't have the speed thing
1:48:12that you're talking about, like, they are,
1:48:14they're network-based, and they're not speedy to,
1:48:18they're pretty speedy with the,
1:48:20hey, something has happened,
1:48:21but when you wanna go look at it,
1:48:22it's really dependent on your network connection.
1:48:25It's not, I don't think it's gonna be as instant
1:48:26as you thought it would be.
1:48:28The, my outdoor one, I think I've had for about a year now.
1:48:31So far, so good.
1:48:33I mapped out its little area to ignore, like, passing cars,
1:48:37but tell me about, like, you know,
1:48:39things that are happening on my property
1:48:40with the little mappy, you know,
1:48:41those things that have where you just mask out areas.
1:48:44That's been pretty reliable.
1:48:45Also, its recognition, it has face recognition,
1:48:49so it can know who people are,
1:48:50and it also does, like, on its own,
1:48:52it can say vehicle, animal, person.
1:48:55All that is pretty much dead on,
1:48:57like, when a rabbit goes by, it knows it's an animal,
1:48:59and a person walks by or walks up the driveway,
1:49:02they know it's a person,
1:49:02and when a vehicle pulls into the driveway, like,
1:49:04it's pretty good about that,
1:49:06but I feel like the interface to the data
1:49:09that it has collected is fairly impoverished.
1:49:11It is continuous recording,
1:49:12and I do have all this footage that I can go through,
1:49:14but the ability to navigate it isn't great.
1:49:16Like, I do wish it was, in some respects,
1:49:19I wish it was local, like you were saying,
1:49:20like, well, not that iCloud is local, whatever,
1:49:22but processing local would be great,
1:49:24and storage local, like on Synology or QNAP
1:49:26or the other ones would be great,
1:49:27but on the other hand, I love that everything is remote,
1:49:30so that if someone hits the camera with a baseball bat,
1:49:33I'll still have footage of them,
1:49:34or like, if the house burns down,
1:49:36I'll have footage before the house burns, whatever.
1:49:38It is nice that it's continuous recording
1:49:40to a cloud thing that, yes, I pay for,
1:49:41but the annual fee for me to have my two cameras
1:49:45is not too onerous, and it's basically 24/7
1:49:47continuous recording inside and outside of my house,
1:49:49which I have found very valuable,
1:49:51even just to see what the dog is up to, you know what I mean?
1:49:54And I can compare, because the indoor ones
1:49:56also have face recognition
1:49:58and supposedly know who everybody is,
1:50:00and it's pretty good, it tells me, dog barking,
1:50:03Alex has entered the kitchen, you know,
1:50:04like it knows people, it knows where they are,
1:50:06it knows what's going on in the house when we're not home,
1:50:09but sometimes it's like, unknown person in the living room,
1:50:12like, oh, come on, it's just Alex again,
1:50:14it's the same person, like they're not unknown,
1:50:16and the indoor ones do that more than the outdoor ones do,
1:50:19so I think they have come a long way,
1:50:22and I think my indoor one is even newer than yours,
1:50:24the outdoor one seems to do a pretty good job,
1:50:26and I like the strategy of the outdoor one,
1:50:29to be a tiny standalone computer on its own,
1:50:31it makes them bulky and expensive,
1:50:32and you gotta pay for the service,
1:50:34but I don't have a home hub to worry about,
1:50:37it doesn't interact with iCloud in any way,
1:50:39and I'm pretty sure, I don't have an Apple Watch,
1:50:40but I see my wife, when she gets the alerts,
1:50:42she sees a little thumbnail of like, you know,
1:50:45we noticed a person in your kitchen,
1:50:46and it shows them the person in the kitchen,
1:50:48are they as timely as yours?
1:50:50Probably not, but they, you know,
1:50:52and I think she can tap on it
1:50:53to see the little video clip too,
1:50:55if the cell data wins are right,
1:50:58so I don't think,
1:51:00I don't think the modern Nest ones
1:51:02have all the advantages you just described,
1:51:05but in terms of reliability,
1:51:07I can pretty much always connect to the camera,
1:51:09and there has been no point
1:51:11where it has not been recording,
1:51:12occasionally if I can't connect to it,
1:51:13it's because my network connection is flaky wherever I am,
1:51:16but it's not like the camera didn't record that,
1:51:18when I get back home,
1:51:19I can use the awful interface to scroll back through
1:51:22to find that footage,
1:51:24so I mean, this is not a satisfying answer,
1:51:26yes, they've gotten better,
1:51:27but I mean, it's hard for me to recommend this
1:51:30over what you have,
1:51:30because it's just a different set of trade-offs.
1:51:32- Yeah, so I just checked,
1:51:34so it turns out I actually have six of the circle views,
1:51:36not four, my mistake,
1:51:37so I have six circle views,
1:51:39currently two of them say no response,
1:51:42earlier today I checked,
1:51:44and four of them said no response,
1:51:45and they were a different set,
1:51:47(laughing)
1:51:48so it's just,
1:51:49they're unbearably unreliable,
1:51:52but I just,
1:51:54yeah, maybe I will try the Nest again,
1:51:57but anyway, I also,
1:51:58I'm curious too if the listeners know,
1:52:00I know Ubiquiti has their own cameras,
1:52:02and they record locally,
1:52:04but you can access them remotely,
1:52:06and they record onto either one of their
1:52:08network video recorders,
1:52:10or the hard drive slot in the router I'm trying to buy,
1:52:13but can't,
1:52:14(laughing)
1:52:15so I'm curious if anybody has experience,
1:52:18I've never used Ubiquiti's cameras,
1:52:21I know Synology also has a built in
1:52:23surveillance station feature,
1:52:25where you can have stuff recorded onto that,
1:52:27I've never used that either.
1:52:28- So let me briefly interject here,
1:52:30so I have never used surveillance station,
1:52:33I know almost nothing about it,
1:52:35it's the second thing on the list of to-dos
1:52:38after CallShe gets released,
1:52:39and the first thing is the fiber project
1:52:41that will probably never actually happen,
1:52:43but nevertheless,
1:52:44I do wanna put a couple of cameras around the house,
1:52:46and perhaps one in the house,
1:52:47to see what Penny is doing when we're not here,
1:52:50but anyways,
1:52:51my parents have a Synology,
1:52:54a very, very small,
1:52:55I think it's 204 based Synology,
1:52:56I think it's a 2-Bay,
1:52:58and they use surveillance station,
1:53:00and I have seen it used a handful of times,
1:53:04I know very little about it,
1:53:07but my dad seems pretty satisfied with it,
1:53:11now I don't think he's,
1:53:12I mean he's very savvy,
1:53:13but I don't think he's to the level
1:53:15of any of the three of us,
1:53:16and I don't know what the notification situation's like,
1:53:19I do know that everything is recorded locally,
1:53:22I think it's processed locally,
1:53:24as far as I'm aware,
1:53:26so I think it would get you pretty close to what you want,
1:53:30and I think the way it works is,
1:53:32you get like one or two cameras,
1:53:34"personology" for free,
1:53:36but then you have to buy like licenses
1:53:38for additional cameras or something like that,
1:53:39again, I'm talking very well out of turn at this point,
1:53:43but I believe that is a solution
1:53:46that you should at least investigate,
1:53:48it may not be the right istancer for Marco,
1:53:50but I would at least take a look,
1:53:52because my parents have been using this for literally years,
1:53:54and they seem really satisfied with it.
1:53:56- I'm hoping that the Ubiquiti ones are good,
1:53:59because most of them, maybe even all,
1:54:02but I think most of them at least
1:54:03are powered via Power Ethernet,
1:54:05I love PoE stuff.
1:54:07- Yeah, that's the way my parents is as well.
1:54:08- Yeah, like, first of all,
1:54:10it's way more reliable,
1:54:12because it hard wires the network connection as well,
1:54:16it also saves on cables,
1:54:18like then I don't have to have all these
1:54:20USB extension cables with sealed boxes
1:54:23to protect them from the weather,
1:54:24running from these outlets
1:54:25that themselves have to be sealed,
1:54:26it just makes everything better,
1:54:27and then it's easy too,
1:54:29then they have power backup,
1:54:30because all my PoE hubs are tied into my main UPS system,
1:54:34backed up by Tesla Powerwall batteries,
1:54:36and solar powered in an emergency,
1:54:40so all my networking gear,
1:54:42I have on redundant power,
1:54:44and so I can count on it, even if say,
1:54:47a hurricane comes through,
1:54:48I'm not here and I wanna see how my house is doing,
1:54:51I can probably do that,
1:54:53unless the fiber goes out,
1:54:55that's a different story,
1:54:56but for the most part,
1:54:58I love PoE stuff for lots of reasons,
1:55:00and that also allows me to then,
1:55:03part of the problem with the Logitech CircleViews
1:55:04is that they, as mentioned last episode,
1:55:07they come with this roughly 10 foot USB power cable,
1:55:12and so you can only have it 10 feet
1:55:14from either an outdoor outlet,
1:55:18or some kind of sealed box
1:55:20that you can put some kind of extension,
1:55:22or surgical strip or whatever into,
1:55:23that can protect that joint from the weather,
1:55:26and that's annoying too,
1:55:28whereas I can just buy a 100 foot ethernet cable,
1:55:32and just run it from the insulated inside,
1:55:36to the camera, seal it at the camera end,
1:55:38with an enclosure or some kind of goop or whatever,
1:55:42and be done, and that's it,
1:55:44and so I think that's ultimately
1:55:46what I will probably try next,
1:55:49but I kinda just wanna know,
1:55:51are Ubiquiti's cameras good?
1:55:52Is Ubiquiti's interface for accessing them good?
1:55:55Are the apps good?
1:55:55Are they reliable?
1:55:57Does it play well with iOS?
1:55:59Do I have to use one of those homekit bridging kind of apps,
1:56:02like either Homebridge or Hoobs,
1:56:04or whatever, I've never used those before,
1:56:07but do I need to use those,
1:56:08or can I get away without them?
1:56:10If I do use those, are those good?
1:56:12Are those reliable?
1:56:14It's such a big topic,
1:56:15and so anyway, I hope to get some good tips from people,
1:56:18so thank you in advance for whatever you can tell me.
1:56:22- Yeah, just very quickly with regard to Hoobs,
1:56:24Homebridge and Home Assistant
1:56:25is the other one you'll hear a lot about.
1:56:27I did try to use Home Assistant literally years ago.
1:56:30It's unquestionably more powerful than Homebridge,
1:56:34without a doubt.
1:56:35It also was one of those things
1:56:38where the way it thought and operated
1:56:41was the antithesis of the way my brain thinks and operates,
1:56:45and I'm not saying it's bad by any means,
1:56:47and again, everyone who I know
1:56:49that can wrap their head around it,
1:56:51Merlin as an example, swears by it,
1:56:54but I just could not get my brain
1:56:56to click with Home Assistant.
1:56:57Homebridge is what I use,
1:57:00and it's extraordinarily reliable.
1:57:03I do almost nothing to it.
1:57:04I run it in a Docker container.
1:57:06I think we should probably start talking about those
1:57:08at some point, Mr. Marco,
1:57:10but anyways, I really do encourage and endorse Homebridge.
1:57:14It's very, very good, pretty straightforward, pretty simple.
1:57:17It didn't used to be, but now it is,
1:57:19and I don't know barely anything about Hoobs
1:57:21other than I know that it's a thing that exists.
1:57:24- Very helpful, thank you.
1:57:25- Indeed, you're welcome.
1:57:26- And yeah, and I should clarify too,
1:57:28the reason why I like having a bunch of cameras
1:57:30around my house, it's not just because I'm,
1:57:33I'm not paranoid about crime.
1:57:35I have found many uses for these
1:57:39where it's useful to know.
1:57:40For instance, if you're away for the weekend
1:57:42and someone drops a package on your porch,
1:57:45that's really good to know,
1:57:46so you can ask a neighbor,
1:57:47hey, can you please bring it in or something.
1:57:50There are lots of checking on your house during storms,
1:57:53checking on John's dog.
1:57:55There's lots of occasions in real life
1:57:57where like, oh, if you happen to have
1:57:59remotely accessible cameras in your house
1:58:01that are reasonably private, or not in your house,
1:58:03but like around your house, occasionally in your house.
1:58:05I don't put cameras in my house when I'm home,
1:58:08but if you're gonna leave for the weekend
1:58:11and there's a storm coming, you put a camera in
1:58:12and you can check on stuff, like that kind of thing.
1:58:14I love having those abilities.
1:58:17They have proven useful many times.
1:58:20It isn't just to scare away people from peeing under my deck
1:58:22it is also high utility.
1:58:25So anyway, thank you in advance for anything.
1:58:27You can send me listeners,
1:58:29and if you happen to recommend Ubiquiti's stuff,
1:58:31hopefully it'll be in stock.
1:58:33So thank you very much to our sponsor this week, Notion,
1:58:38and thank you to our members who support us directly.
1:58:41You can join us at atp.fm/join,
1:58:44and we will talk to you next week.
1:58:46That was Marco, by the way.
1:58:47(upbeat music)
1:58:50♪ Now the show is over ♪
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1:58:55♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
1:58:56♪ Accidental ♪
1:58:57♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪
1:58:59♪ Accidental ♪
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1:59:02♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪
1:59:05♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
1:59:07♪ Accidental ♪
1:59:08♪ It was accidental ♪
1:59:10♪ Accidental ♪
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1:59:19♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪
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1:59:47♪ So long ♪
1:59:50- So over the last couple of weeks,
1:59:51I've had some interesting troubleshooting adventures.
1:59:54I wanted to quickly detail them in part
1:59:56so if there's anyone who ever runs
2:00:00into either of these situations,
2:00:01they can learn from my mistakes,
2:00:02and partly 'cause I thought they were funny and/or weird.
2:00:05First of all, when we were, where were we?
2:00:07We were gone for some reason.
2:00:08It was not the beach trip that just happened.
2:00:10It was a couple of weeks ago.
2:00:12I forget where we were,
2:00:13but we were away from home for a few days.
2:00:16I think we might've been at my parents,
2:00:17and a really bad storm came through Richmond,
2:00:21and it took out,
2:00:24it's a long story why, which we can get into,
2:00:26but it's not interesting,
2:00:26but suffice to say it took out the,
2:00:29it's not the ONT, it's like the power supply for the ONT.
2:00:31It's the thing that's in my garage,
2:00:33not the thing that the fiber comes into
2:00:34in the back of the house.
2:00:35It's the thing that's in my garage
2:00:36plugged into a regular outlet,
2:00:38and I believe, like I said,
2:00:39it's the power supply for the ONT, for the FiOS.
2:00:43It took out that outlet, like that outlet is GFCI outlet.
2:00:46It tripped for whatever reason,
2:00:47and so the FiOS connection to the house
2:00:50was down for several hours.
2:00:52And a couple of days later,
2:00:54after I'd come home and reset all that,
2:00:55and so on and so forth,
2:00:56a couple days later, I was somewhere,
2:00:59I forget where I was, maybe a library or something,
2:01:01and I was trying to use my WireGuard VPN.
2:01:05WireGuard is really, really good, and I like it a lot.
2:01:08It has a couple of features that keep me stuck to it.
2:01:11In the past, Tailscale has sponsored,
2:01:14and Tailscale, and they did pay us to say this a while ago,
2:01:17but legit, Tailscale's really good,
2:01:19and it's a lot less fiddly than WireGuard.
2:01:22So I have Tailscale as a redundant system
2:01:25in case WireGuard fails, which it was doing
2:01:27at this particular point in time.
2:01:29I couldn't figure out for the life of me what was going on.
2:01:32And I don't know if you happen to know anything
2:01:35about WireGuard, but do you guys know,
2:01:37do you know how WireGuard works, either of you, by chance?
2:01:39- Nope. - No idea.
2:01:41- Okay, so apparently, and I am also getting
2:01:43outside of my comfort zone here,
2:01:44but apparently it all works via UDP.
2:01:46So what this seems to mean, from my limited understanding,
2:01:51is that the WireGuard client software will often tell you
2:01:55that you are connected when you are not, in fact, connected,
2:01:58because it's just sending packets out into the ether
2:02:00and assuming that they're getting
2:02:01to where they're supposed to be getting.
2:02:03It took a lot of troubleshooting for me to figure out
2:02:06what the issue was with my WireGuard,
2:02:08which would connect, but would do nothing.
2:02:12I couldn't reach the internet, nothing was going on,
2:02:14it was dead in the water, except it said it was connected.
2:02:17- Was it IPv6?
2:02:19- No, very good guess, and you're kind of close.
2:02:22As it turns out, what had happened was,
2:02:25I use a host name off of Casey, a host off of CaseyList.com
2:02:29as my house's IP address.
2:02:32And so I can go to mainstreet.caseylist.com, if you will,
2:02:37and I can get to, that will push me over
2:02:42to the house's IP address.
2:02:44Well, when the file sits down for several hours,
2:02:46you know what changes?
2:02:47Your house's IP address.
2:02:48But because Tailscale is this weird UDP thing,
2:02:52or at least I think that's why,
2:02:53it thought it was connected,
2:02:55God knows where it was connected to,
2:02:56but when it actually tried to get any response
2:02:59from the WireGuard server, did I say Tailscale a minute ago
2:03:01and meant WireGuard, I'm sorry.
2:03:03Anyways, when it tried to get any information
2:03:05from the WireGuard server, it wasn't listening
2:03:08'cause it was at the wrong IP address.
2:03:09So it turns out, fixing--
2:03:10- You said you got a new IP address from Verizon
2:03:12is what you're saying. - Correct, yes, yes.
2:03:14- I mean, someone else probably has your old IP address, so.
2:03:16- Yeah, exactly, exactly right.
2:03:18And so it just, it took me forever to figure this out,
2:03:20including tearing down my whole WireGuard installation
2:03:24on my Raspberry Pi, which is the server,
2:03:26and rebuilding it from scratch,
2:03:28trying to figure out what the hell was going on.
2:03:30And it turns out I just never updated
2:03:32my mainstreet.caseylist.com IP address.
2:03:35- Why don't you, that's what DNS is for.
2:03:36Why don't you have a dynamic DNS thing for that?
2:03:39- Well, because this is all running through Hover,
2:03:41and I don't have anything that I've automated
2:03:44to report into Hover that mainstreet.caseylist.com
2:03:47needs to be updated.
2:03:49- I've been using this free dynamic DNS thing for,
2:03:53I don't know, at this point it's like a streak,
2:03:55like a contest, so that, it's a free service
2:03:57that gives you a dynamic IP address.
2:03:59You just, you pick the host name and they say,
2:04:02you like, something on your network
2:04:03will ping them occasionally, and it'll let them know
2:04:05what your IP address is, right?
2:04:07And it's free, but they really don't want it to be free.
2:04:10They want me to pay for whatever the next upsell thing is.
2:04:14- Yes, this was, I was using dyndns.com.
2:04:17- Yeah, I think that's what I'm using.
2:04:18- Which now is dyndns.com, and years ago,
2:04:21it became clear that they wanted nothing
2:04:25to do with free users, and so I just abandoned it
2:04:27at that point.
2:04:28- That's my concern with Cloudflare, by the way.
2:04:30Cloudflare, they give a lot for free,
2:04:34or for, even their $200 a month plan
2:04:38gives away a lot of unlimited this, unlimited that,
2:04:41but they are always pushing very, very hard
2:04:44for the upsells, for all the paid stuff
2:04:47that is not only not free and definitely not unlimited.
2:04:52It's extremely expensive and extremely,
2:04:55you pay by the everything for the upsell stuff.
2:04:58And I worry, Cloudflare right now,
2:05:01a lot of things on the internet right now
2:05:03are only affordable to their owners and hosts
2:05:08because of Cloudflare, and I feel like
2:05:11they're one bad quarter away from ruining a lot for people.
2:05:15- I think they're doing okay.
2:05:16But the free service that I used back in the,
2:05:18well, first it was just free,
2:05:19back in the good old dot com days,
2:05:21and then it was like, oh, they would send me an email
2:05:23every once in a while that said,
2:05:24visit this webpage to let us know you're still using it,
2:05:27so of course I just automated that
2:05:28and had a system that just, you know?
2:05:30And then eventually, in the more modern age,
2:05:33they said, oh, well, now there's a CAPTCHA on it, right?
2:05:36And at the point they added the CAPTCHA,
2:05:39I'm like, well, it's not worth my time
2:05:41to automate this anymore, so for the past,
2:05:43it's gotta be a decade, I should look it up.
2:05:45For the past at least five years,
2:05:47maybe possibly 10, maybe more, once a month,
2:05:50I get an email that says, go to this webpage
2:05:52and click this I am not a robot box or solve this CAPTCHA
2:05:56to let us know that you're still using this IP address.
2:05:59And I've been doing it once a month.
2:06:02For real, it's like a, what do you call it?
2:06:04A game of chicken, I'm like, I'll do this forever.
2:06:07Like Captain America, I could do this all day.
2:06:10I have paid zero dollars to this company ever
2:06:13and I'm getting a free IP address that's always up to date
2:06:15with my IP of the thing, right?
2:06:17And they just constantly are saying,
2:06:19you sure you don't want to upgrade?
2:06:20I'm like, yeah, no, I'm sure.
2:06:21Yep, I'm human, no, I'm sure.
2:06:23Yeah, I'm sure this month too.
2:06:24I'll be sure next month too.
2:06:25And I just like, this has gotta end.
2:06:28I wonder if someone inside the company is like,
2:06:30this person has been on our free plan for 16 years.
2:06:32Can we do something about this?
2:06:35Like, no, I'm just gonna keep solving the CAPTCHA.
2:06:37So, I mean, this is not probably a good use of my time,
2:06:39but like I said, I don't want to break the streak,
2:06:41but you could run DNS yourself, you know, run your own DNS.
2:06:44This is the old dream of the internet.
2:06:46Back in the old days, I'm gonna run a Linux server,
2:06:48I'm gonna have my own DNS,
2:06:49I'm gonna run my own mail server
2:06:50and that's so distant from us.
2:06:52But things like Fastly and Cloudflare
2:06:53actually do bring some of that back,
2:06:56and AWS do bring some of that kind of back into reach
2:06:59in exchange for selling a small part of our soul to the man.
2:07:02But, you know, it is what it is.
2:07:04- Indeed.
2:07:06The other one I can't,
2:07:08this story is gonna have to be really quick
2:07:10because I don't remember the details,
2:07:11but I was having a different networking issue
2:07:13inside the house.
2:07:14The call was coming inside the house
2:07:15for the second time I made that joke this episode.
2:07:17And I found that I think the Wi-Fi
2:07:22was working fine if memory serves,
2:07:26but ethernet wasn't working at all.
2:07:29And I could not for the life of me figure out why.
2:07:31I'm pretty sure that was the circumstance.
2:07:33And this started because I was downstairs trying out,
2:07:37I think, a dongle for my laptop
2:07:39before we went to the beach in case I, you know,
2:07:42but because I bring an ethernet adapter everywhere
2:07:43'cause I'm a weirdo.
2:07:44And I just wanted to verify that this dongle
2:07:46that I had still worked, and it wasn't working,
2:07:49and I was like, "Well, that's weird."
2:07:49Then I tried a known good dongle,
2:07:51you know, USB-C to ethernet dongle, that didn't work.
2:07:54Uh-oh, this ain't right.
2:07:55So then I move upstairs.
2:07:58I was doing this downstairs,
2:07:59and the situation downstairs is, you know,
2:08:01ethernet to switch to mocha bridge to coaxial cable
2:08:05that runs eventually up to the office
2:08:07to a different mocha bridge
2:08:08to the main switch for the house.
2:08:10It's a total nightmare mess of possibilities for issues.
2:08:14It's been pretty much rock solid for years,
2:08:17but in the troubleshooting mindset,
2:08:20it's a pile of what-ifs that I needed to eliminate.
2:08:23So I come upstairs with the known good dongle.
2:08:26I plug it into my main switch, it's a 16-port,
2:08:28you know, gigabit switch in the house.
2:08:30I forget who makes it, I think it's D-Link.
2:08:32It's been, again, rock solid for years.
2:08:35And I plug it into the switch, still not working.
2:08:37And then I plug back into my desk setup
2:08:40with my beloved CalDigit TS4,
2:08:42that has ethernet running into that, still not working.
2:08:45I think I rebooted my Eero once or twice,
2:08:48trying to get that to work, that didn't work.
2:08:50Nothing is working.
2:08:52Would you care to guess either of you
2:08:53what the issue was and how I fixed it?
2:08:55- Is it IPv6?
2:08:56- Nope, good guess, but no.
2:08:58- Is there a USB SSD plugged into something?
2:09:01- No, no.
2:09:03You know what I had to do to fix it?
2:09:04I had to restart my switch,
2:09:07which is something I don't think
2:09:08I have ever said before in my life.
2:09:10- Oh my God, I've never had to do that.
2:09:12- Right?
2:09:13- With any switch ever.
2:09:14- I was gonna say you had to replace your switch.
2:09:15I don't think I know how to restart any of mine,
2:09:17but I have replaced a switch before.
2:09:18- I pulled the power from it, counted to five,
2:09:22put it back in, everything's been fine since.
2:09:24- I think, actually, I think if we had a power failure
2:09:27a couple of years ago, one of my switches--
2:09:29- And this was what started it, I think.
2:09:31- Yeah, one of my switches was freaking out,
2:09:33the lights were all going crazy on it,
2:09:34and I banged the plug on it, that helped.
2:09:36I did look this up, how long have I been freeloading
2:09:40on this dynamic IP?
2:09:41The answer, based on the oldest email that I have
2:09:45telling me that I need to go somewhere,
2:09:47like your free DNS is gonna expire
2:09:49unless you go to this thing
2:09:50and tell us you're still using it.
2:09:52The oldest one of those emails I have
2:09:54is from 17 years, two months, and 21 days ago.
2:09:57That's how long I've been freeloading.
2:09:59Once a month for 17 years.
2:10:02I feel like I'm really competing with Casey
2:10:06on the cheapskate scale here.
2:10:07It's free, like why would I pay for this thing?
2:10:11It does everything that I need it to do.
2:10:13The price I pay is, and at this point,
2:10:15because of the captchas, like remember your IP
2:10:17and everything, I just have to click a link,
2:10:19click I'm not a robot, and I'm done.
2:10:21(beeping)