549: Unauthorized Trash Can

0:00:00Now everything is suspect at this point. I don't even know what's working.

0:00:03You know what else is suspect? We went live before we did pre-flight. So now we're going to do a visual pre-flight for the bootleg members. Are you ready?

0:00:08A visual pre-flight? Why can't we do an audio pre-flight? Everyone please look at the document. Oh my god, I don't know if I have... Okay, yes, carry on.

0:00:15Alright, so first we're going to do this part. Why can't we do this verbally? Why is this a problem? Because the pre-flight is secret. Marco says that this part is not going to take a long time and I hope so. He's full of it. Because I want this part to be very close to the front of the program and I would like Casey to throw it to me for this part so I can try to get it in and out quick. Then we have our regular... Why don't we reverse those? Why are we not reversing these? Because this leads into this.

0:00:43No, no, no, slow down. I'm saying why don't we do the... I can't say. Oh, I asked Marco about that while you were off rebooting. That does not belong before the modem sound.

0:00:52Yeah, and Marco thinks this order is better and he said he'll be short. Okay, anyway. Alright. We had this discussion without you Casey. If you just got to be here for the whole meeting you'll get it.

0:01:01Oh, kiss my ass, John. God bless. Alright, so then we got all this stuff here, our usual stuff. Notice there is a next week divider so we're not actually going to do all of it.

0:01:11Then all the way down here we have this. This is the worst content we ever made. This is so bad.

0:01:17Over here we have this from Marco. Alright, and he can take all the time he wants with that because the only thing we have after it is this from me which actually isn't that long. And if we want to skip it again it's fine. And then we have this.

0:01:28Wait, I lost it. Where's the this? Yeah, we went back. I scrolled up. I scrolled up. We went back north. If we have to skip this thing from me again it's fine because again it'll keep and then we scroll up and then we have this.

0:01:40Holy crap. I think I have whiplash. Alright, this is what the people tune in for.

0:01:47The main part was just the beginning part and sorting this stuff out. Actually, I would have done more pre-flight stuff if we were actually off the air but we aren't.

0:01:56I drove a box truck.

0:02:00Cool. Was it a cardboard box that you fashioned into a truck or was it actually a truck in the shape of a box?

0:02:07It was not that interesting. It was a budget moving truck.

0:02:11Excellent. And the excuse for that was to relocate belongings I presume?

0:02:16Yes, typically you use moving trucks to move objects and that was indeed the use here. We are moving. We are selling a house and so we're moving out of it and moving our stuff to a new house.

0:02:29It is a big ordeal that I'll be going through for some time. This was stage one. This wasn't everything because apparently this is the first time we are selling a house.

0:02:38The process of selling a house first involves you taking like three quarters of your stuff out of it to stage it to make it look like a total super human lives there who doesn't live the way anybody lives.

0:02:50So stage one is to get rid of much of your stuff and we'll get to more of that later in the show I think.

0:02:59Yes, yes we will.

0:03:03But the gist of it is we rented a budget truck to move a whole bunch of stuff into a storage unit temporarily.

0:03:11I've never used a storage unit before. That's new to me. The last time I drove a rental truck like this I drove a U-Haul when I moved to Pittsburgh in 2004.

0:03:23And not since then as far as I know. I can tell you that the rental truck industry has actually not seemingly changed that much since 2004.

0:03:35The truck back then, just a regular U-Haul, like a 10 or 12 foot truck, not like a separate trailer or anything, just a regular 12 foot box truck.

0:03:44Back then it was very difficult because not only was the truck itself a horrendous thing that barely moved, but back then, this was in the summer, it didn't have air conditioning.

0:03:55It didn't even have any kind of input for the radio. So what I did to amuse myself on, I had to drive it on like a four hour drive, so what I did to amuse myself was I put my PowerBook G4 on the passenger seat, just open, and just blasted music from iTunes as loud as it would go.

0:04:14From those high quality speakers.

0:04:16Yeah, on the built in speakers on the PowerBook G4. Although to be honest, man, so when I was done with that computer I had to sell it to fund my core duo MacBook and I wish I didn't sell it because it was in pristine condition.

0:04:31It was my first Mac. I wish I still had it today. I mean, it couldn't have worked.

0:04:36Maybe I should send you some junk from my house because I have that same Mac and it's in pristine condition. Well, kind of pristine. I think I upgraded the hard drive on it myself so there may be a little bit of entry damage.

0:04:46Alright, we'll negotiate that later. But anyway, so the new moving truck that I rented this week, it is significantly upgraded in the sense that they now come with air conditioning.

0:04:59They still lack power locks and power windows, which basically means, well, you just can't roll down the right side window because you can't reach it.

0:05:08The lack of power locks is certainly interesting. Like when you have to go in and get gas, you better be able to lock it.

0:05:16Then you have to lock it by putting a key in it and turning it. There's not even a key fob with a remote. You have to actually insert the key into the door and turn it to lock it.

0:05:25Which is not difficult. It's just something I haven't had to do in a very long time because key fobs have been a thing for quite some time now.

0:05:33My favorite thing about driving this box truck is that it had a rear view mirror. I don't entirely know why because it was looking at the box.

0:05:43Yes, it's just looking at the back of the passenger compartment, the solid wall. So I don't know why it had a rear view mirror, but it did.

0:05:53The radio still today had no inputs, no cassette deck. It was just a radio. It had a menu button, but I was like, "Maybe they snuck some Bluetooth in here."

0:06:04Nope, no Bluetooth. Nothing. There was a USB port in the dash, but it was dead.

0:06:09My only entertainment method, because I wasn't prepared. If I had advance notice that I was going to be doing this by a long way and I actually planned for it,

0:06:18I would have gotten a vent mount for my phone and maybe an FM transmitter for the radio. I had neither of those things.

0:06:26So I just put the phone in the cup holder and had the wonderful experience of trying to echo the sound out of the cup holder so it amplifies. We've all done this.

0:06:37Why not use a single AirPod or something?

0:06:40I've always been told that you shouldn't wear headphones while driving. Some people even say it's illegal. I'm not sure if that's true or where that might be true.

0:06:48When I'm driving this giant vehicle that I'm not familiar with, I didn't want to have any risk of not hearing a horn or something like that as I accidentally emerged into somebody.

0:06:57The reason I brought this to the show is briefly, first of all, just to mention, trucks are hard. Driving a truck is hard.

0:07:08It was no easier than it was back in 2004. It just had air conditioning this time. It also smelled no better.

0:07:16Of course.

0:07:17You've all smelled this before. It's the smell of a really old car that hasn't been cleaned that well throughout its life.

0:07:27It's hard to describe. It's the smell of old car upholstery. It's not smoke per se, but it's fast food and farts. It's weird.

0:07:41I just stunk like that the rest of the day. I had to wash all those clothes, everything, right off when I was done.

0:07:48Anyway, driving a truck is hard. One of the things that makes driving a truck hard is that there's a lot of roads that trucks aren't allowed on or won't fit on.

0:07:57In New York, around here, there's tons of parkways. New York parkways don't allow trucks. The way to get almost anywhere involves a parkway at some point.

0:08:09One of the key advances that I've had since 2004 is now we have cell phones. Instead of having my power book on the seat, now I have my phone in the cup holder to play music that way, which sounds about as good.

0:08:25But now we have GPS apps. That's great. To try to get from anywhere in the New York metro area to anywhere else in the New York metro area without GPS apps that are somewhat traffic aware is not fun.

0:08:37But I knew from experience driving the RV a couple years ago, I can't just use Waze or Apple Maps or Google Maps because they don't have any options as far as I can tell to only ride on roads that trucks are allowed on.

0:08:52So not to ride on any New York parkways and things like that. GPS apps seem to not cover this well. At least all the mainstream apps. I looked in Google Maps, I looked in Apple Maps, I looked in Waze.

0:09:02If anybody knows, please write in. I couldn't find any options to give me a truck-allowed route in any of the mainstream apps.

0:09:12You should find out what apps the truckers use because surely it's useful knowledge to them, right?

0:09:16I asked Mr. Budget, the guy at the budget pickup place, I asked Mr. Budget, "Do you know of any GPS apps on the phone that will give me a truck route?" And he suggested this app called Truck Map. Great. So I download Truck Map.

0:09:33Between Truck Map and the other app I tried, which I'll get to in a second, this was a series of total failures of app review to the point where if you've ever been rejected by app review, this is going to make you mad.

0:09:47Oh great, I'm so excited. So, Truck Map, and it seemed to have a lot of use, a lot of ratings. For no reason that I could tell, it requires your phone number just to use the app at all. I don't know why, I had to give it my phone number to do anything.

0:10:06There is no obvious functionality that seems to justify needing a phone number, but I had to give it a verified, like it verified it with the SMS and everything, verified a phone number. Okay, so they're going to spam me forever. Great, thanks a lot.

0:10:18So I drove from the Budget Pickup Place back to house number one using Truck Map. And this was a wonderful app in terms of it did pick truck safe routes, except that it would say, for instance, "Turn right onto whatever in four miles and then never say it again."

0:10:39Nice.

0:10:41As you're approaching the turn that it told you about five minutes ago, it doesn't tell you, "Turn right." It will never tell you that direction again. So you just have to be watching it, I guess, which is not super safe, especially in a truck that you've never driven and you aren't a truck driver.

0:10:57I've recently switched to not having the voice on. Like this past year, I haven't had the voice on on my GPS. And obviously that doesn't tell you ever to turn. And it's a different style of driving, but it's the same type of thing. You say, "Okay, I have to turn right coming up in like three miles." And you mostly just like, I glanced back at it to see that I am at where I think I'm at, but it never speaks to you. Did it not show you like the road and like where you are relative to it?

0:11:19It did, but it was in a cup holder way down there, not in my field of view anywhere. So I kind of need the voice thing. So anyway.

0:11:25Well, I mean, what you need to know is the name of the road. And you know, back in the day, we didn't have GPS and we just drive by looking at a hackster and then you get in the car and go.

0:11:32I know, but now I'm spoiled. Okay.

0:11:34Yeah, exactly. So really quick, since we've distracted you from this story that you promised was going to be short and is nothing of the matter. So what are the parkways nearby? So it's Sawmill, the Hutch. What other ones are in your...

0:11:46Northern State, Southern State.

0:11:48Yeah, the Cross County, the Cross Island.

0:11:50So none of those are permissible for your budget truck?

0:11:53Basically there are, like to get from Westchester to Long Island, I would normally go on at least two and possibly up to four parkways. So anyway, so truck map that required my phone number, bad. Very, very bad.

0:12:08So then I was, so when I was, after I had loaded the truck and I was about to do like the big drive, the big like, you know, two and a half hour drive, I thought, all right, before I start this giant drive, let me get a better app.

0:12:17So I looked around the app store and the one that seemed like the more popular one was called Trucker Path. So I was like, great.

0:12:25This didn't tell me, you know, before downloading that, oh, it says it uses, it does truck GPS, but what it actually does is regular GPS and only does truck paths if you have an in-app purchase. Okay, well, fine, whatever.

0:12:38The purchase to get the truck route...

0:12:41Is hundreds of dollars.

0:12:42Yeah, it prominently advertised. It was $20 a month. The UI had the big $20 a month price. So you go hit subscribe, you start the free trial, thank God, shut the free trial. And if you don't look too closely, you might miss the fact...

0:12:56Build annually?

0:12:57Yes, build annually. It's actually a $250 annual subscription that would start in one week.

0:13:02Oh, my word.

0:13:04Hey, at least I had a one week free trial.

0:13:06Yeah, thank God. So I did cancel it before the week was up, thank God. As soon as I saw that, I'm like, oh, add a note to reminders right now.

0:13:14And anyway, my favorite part, so we have misleading pricing in the purchase screen. Then after the in-app purchase is completed, so after you have either purchased it or signed up for the trial, so you're in now, it puts up a modal screen that you cannot pass until you give them an email address that it verifies.

0:13:32Oh, my word.

0:13:33Where is App Review on this? App Review gives us so much crap for such little things in the apps. Meanwhile, here's this app that's used by what appeared to be hundreds of thousands of people. It has a misleading IAP pricing screen, pretty severely misleading.

0:13:47And then after the IAP, it forces you to give an email address with no way to proceed until you do. And by that point, you're committed, you've already purchased it. But you can't actually use your purchase until you give them an email address.

0:13:58Like, where is App Review? Is anybody at App Review? Does anybody work? Anyway.

0:14:04Those screens don't appear when it's in App Review.

0:14:06That wouldn't surprise me, actually.

0:14:08Yeah. Common practice, Marco. I don't know why you don't do it. It'll load this SDK into your app and it'll detect when it's in an App Review testing center and it will disable all those screens.

0:14:17So anyway, this is the app that I was taking the big drive with. I'm like, it can't be worse than Truck Map, you know, because I need these voice directions to work because I can't look at my phone constantly in a cup holder. So I get on the road with this app.

0:14:29Now, it had told me the first direction was whatever direction the truck was currently pointed in, you know, turn right on the next street.

0:14:37Well, when I left my driveway, I went the other way because the way it was telling me to go would have been down a very steep hill that I was not going to take an unknown old truck on.

0:14:47So I went the other direction out the block. It's like half a block out of the way. I'm getting on the road, you know, I saw what highway it was taking me to, so I was kind of just navigating myself to the highway and I realized it hasn't told me anything recently.

0:14:58Huh, what's going on? And I looked down at the cup holder phone and it is still showing the first direction that I didn't take.

0:15:05Oh, gosh. It never rerouted?

0:15:07It never rerouted and never moved on.

0:15:09Cool.

0:15:10So it's saying turn right on street that's like, that's now at this point like 10 miles behind me. I'm on the highway at this point and I'm like, oh my God, I don't know where to go.

0:15:19Unless I just keep following the line, which I can't keep looking at in the cup holder, I'm stuck.

0:15:24So I eventually had to like pull off into one of those gas station things that's like attached to the highway, not a rest stop, you know, in New York you don't have room for that.

0:15:31It's like basically a gas station where the driveways just are the highway.

0:15:36It's right, you know, a little bit off the highway by about 10 feet.

0:15:40And so I had to pull into one of those where the truck would actually fit and, you know, reset the app to, you know, take it out, force quit it, go back in.

0:15:49There's a whole thing.

0:15:51Eventually, once I did that and then I followed its directions perfectly, then Trucker Path worked.

0:15:56So in case you want to pay $250 a year, that's the quality app that you get.

0:16:02And so for this and many reasons, driving a truck is hard.

0:16:06So and even like the truck safe routes that you have to take are the worst routes to get to anywhere you want to be.

0:16:14Because you can only like because, you know, when you were in here, like a third or a half of the highways you aren't allowed to take.

0:16:19So you're only on like the most crowded highways that are full of trucks.

0:16:24If you're a truck driver in the New York metro area, I salute you.

0:16:27It was it's not easy.

0:16:29And, you know, people are like zipping all around me like being real jerks.

0:16:33Like it was you have to take all these like indirect routes, detours you got to take.

0:16:38Of course, you know, merging is really hard.

0:16:40There's all these like right side merges you have to do, which is super not easy in especially in these crappy trucks with no visibility.

0:16:46There are so many places like I really had to go to the bathroom.

0:16:48But a lot of like a lot of the places that you are that it's easy to stop like these little like side rest area things.

0:16:54A lot of them in this area are too small for trucks and therefore don't allow trucks.

0:16:59Like I passed the Long Island Welcome Center, which is funny because it's like the middle of Long Island and no trucks exist.

0:17:05A little tiny lot like. So, yeah, driving a truck is hard.

0:17:08If you are driving, please, first of all, be nice to truck drivers.

0:17:13Give them a break. Let them in, et cetera.

0:17:15Like be nice. Driving a truck is difficult.

0:17:18And second of all, if you see a U-Haul or a budget or other kind of like rental truck on the road, stay far away from it because chances are they can't see you.

0:17:30Also, those people have probably never driven a truck before.

0:17:33Anyway, this is this is a ripe market for disruption.

0:17:37Make this easier with with GPS apps or like Apple Maps, Google Maps, Waze, add a truck option.

0:17:44Frankly, I'm shocked. I figured at least Waze would, but I couldn't find anything like that in any of these apps.

0:17:50If Apple was based in New York, it would know about the parkways, but they're not.

0:17:54So it doesn't. I'm not sure that they would. I hear what you're saying, but I don't know if that's really true because I don't know.

0:18:01I mean, they have avoid tolls like they are. Every app has avoid tolls.

0:18:04Yeah, but that's table stakes. That's why.

0:18:06Well, is it because they have toll roads in California?

0:18:08Well, I guess you're right.

0:18:10Actually, I don't even know if they have toll roads in California. If you live in California, please don't tell me you don't have toll roads.

0:18:13I don't want to know. Have fun paying your eight hundred dollars a year for your LLC as opposed to the bargain five hundred dollars that I pay.

0:18:19Yeah, right. Great bargain.

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0:20:22[Music]

0:20:25Jon, you've been doing a bunch of homework, which I think is OK now.

0:20:30We really never renegotiated that, but you've been doing a bunch of homework. Tell me about this, please.

0:20:34So last episode, we talked in the after show about membership and the ad landscape and podcasts.

0:20:40And we asked for feedback. We got tons of feedback. Thanks to everybody who sent us feedback.

0:20:44But as we mentioned on the last episode, we also wanted to try to get like more structured feedback and hopefully for many more people,

0:20:50because we got a lot of feedback. But, you know, people who choose to email us or to date us or whatever are a smaller number compared to the vast number of listeners.

0:20:57So as we said, we would we have a survey for people to fill out.

0:21:01The survey is for every single person who can hear my voice. Doesn't matter what your membership status is or was or anything.

0:21:07If you're a listener to this program, we want you to fill out the survey. Try to make it short.

0:21:11There's a couple of different paths through it, depending on what your answers are.

0:21:14But I don't think the longest path, I think, is 10 questions or fewer.

0:21:17Maybe they're all multiple choice except for the optional ones.

0:21:21So if you just want to click a bunch of buttons and don't want to fill in any text fields, that's fine.

0:21:24If you do want to enter stuff in text fields, there are a couple of questions like that.

0:21:27The URL is the same as always. ATP.FM/survey. We will link it in the show notes.

0:21:33That's where you want to go. Hopefully we'll get enough responses that this is the only time we'll need to mention it.

0:21:38But if not enough people respond for us to feel like we have a significant sample, we'll mention it next week.

0:21:45Indeed. So yeah, just to repeat, whether or not you're a member, if you're a current member, a lapsed member, a never member,

0:21:51all of you are welcome to please check it out.

0:21:54It would help us to understand what you folks want from us and what's best for membership and so on.

0:22:00So it is very quick. I have taken every permutation of this, both in the sense of every draft and also I have clicked my way,

0:22:08choose your own adventure style, to every permutation of the final version.

0:22:12It should only take you a couple of minutes. It's very, very quick. So please check it out.

0:22:16Yeah, the key things that are really worth hearing about, and we got a lot of this from the email,

0:22:20but this is a larger, more structured way to get it. The key thing we want to know is basically what's important to you and what's not.

0:22:27That's really the major conclusions here. Because we can guess. We can say, oh, maybe we should do more X or maybe we should adjust Y.

0:22:33But it's hard for us to know what's important to a lot of people and what's not important to a lot of people. So anyway.

0:22:39And it's dangerous to rely on the people who message us because their opinions are certainly valid, but we don't know if they're representative.

0:22:45You know what I mean? Because the people who respond to us on a show depends a lot on what we say on the show.

0:22:49So if we say something on the show, we'll get responses that are related to what we said, but don't necessarily reflect what everyone is thinking.

0:22:57You know, like if we talk a lot about like white miso paste, we're not going to get a lot of responses about garlic because people are going to be like,

0:23:03oh, here's what's good about miso paste. Here's what's bad about miso paste. Right.

0:23:06It's like, I guess our audience loves miso paste and hates garlic. You can't make that conclusion because we talked about white miso paste.

0:23:11Why am I thinking of this? Because I was cleaning out the fridge. Anyway.

0:23:14So that's why we want to do a survey. We hope just everybody takes a survey. Like whoever you are. Click, click, click, click, click. Ten questions. You'll be done. Please take it.

0:23:21Can we do some follow up about the survey, please?

0:23:24Right now? Yes. The one we just announced? People haven't even filled it out yet.

0:23:28Well, some people in the chat room are filling it out and somebody who shall remain nameless had the same complaint that Marco and I did.

0:23:34Would you like to address this? This person said the none of these options, none of these options option should be at the bottom.

0:23:41I believe in will HBR in the chat room. I believe that person could figure it out on his own while I say something else about the survey.

0:23:47So the clock starts seven seconds from now. Will HBR tell me why it's not at the bottom?

0:23:53OK, well, the one thing I will say about the survey is there is one question that that says which one of these things on its own would make you become an ATP member?

0:24:01Obviously, you don't see this if you're already a member, but if people aren't members, they get this question presented.

0:24:06And I tried to bold and italic the important part, which is which one of these things on its own and their checkboxes so you can select multiple.

0:24:13So it's like we give you a million dollars if we show you a cute puppy. Right. Are those options on the table?

0:24:18Yeah. So you check the box if one of those line items all by itself with nothing else would convince you to become a member.

0:24:27So don't check three of them and say, if you did these three, I would become a member. I tried to word it as clearly as I could.

0:24:31We're trying to condense it so there aren't a million questions. So there's just that one question.

0:24:35But the part that's in bold and italic, which part on its own would make you become a member?

0:24:40Anyway, checking back in with will HBR from the chat room could not work it out on his own.

0:24:46Anyone else in the chat room going once, going twice. The options are randomized because we don't want people to be, you know, to be influenced by the order that we put the multiple options.

0:24:56Google Forms has a way that says, hey, do you want me to randomize these options? But of course, it also randomizes the none of the above.

0:25:02So I apologize for none of the above being mixed in, but I felt it was more important to randomize the options so we didn't bias people.

0:25:08So every time you get one of those questions with multiple options, they're in a random order for you. I apologize for none of the above sometimes being in the middle.

0:25:15All right. Thank you for that. And then finally, in our announcement section, we have a new member special.

0:25:22So we had an incredible fortuitous bit of timing wherein we totally decided on purpose, and it definitely was not accidental, to rank or do a tier list of every iMac.

0:25:34And we have this member special that was released, I think, yesterday as we record. It is available to any current member and any future member.

0:25:44That's true. Thank you. Thank you for that clarification. So, yeah, I encourage you to check it out.

0:25:48It started with John and I getting in a fight, so, you know, it'll be good.

0:25:51It's shocking that, you know, the three of us don't always agree on everything.

0:25:55All right. So with that in mind, let's start with some follow up and let me check my notes.

0:26:00What's the clip? Oh, we have we have notes and follow up about the iMac tier list.

0:26:05Spoiler alert if you haven't listened yet.

0:26:07So the the key thing here is that there was a point in the iMac tier list where we had to discuss the 2006 when they when they first went to Intel.

0:26:17The first batch of Intel Macs had the core duo CPUs.

0:26:21And then within a fairly short time, I think like seven or eight months, they upgraded to the core to duo in this part of the show.

0:26:29I'll spoil it for people here briefly. In this part of the show, John expressed feelings that the core to duo was significantly better than the core duo.

0:26:39And Casey and I had basically said it was a little better.

0:26:42It wasn't a ton better. And so we have some follow up to that effect. Right.

0:26:47So Michael Gabriel writes the court core used the 32 bit mobile only Yona CPUs, which is a descendant of the Pentium M.

0:26:56Pentium M. M. M. That's the important one.

0:27:00It's the Pentium M like totally flipped Intel on its head like it was it was way better than the dumb net burst stuff they were making before that.

0:27:08And that's basically what saved their CPU business.

0:27:12And then the core to marked the transition of Intel desktop from net burst, as you mentioned, which is a Pentium four and D scaling up Yona for desktops and adding 64 bit to it.

0:27:22The X 86 64 migration meant that more meant more than greater than four gigs of memory.

0:27:27MD used 64 bit to add registers, improve floating point vector processing, etc. Intel was forced to follow.

0:27:33Big performance boost was available to 64 bit software on X 86, all unavailable to core one Max, the only non 64 bit Intel Max ever.

0:27:42Yes. And that all sounds really good. Yes.

0:27:45Core two was 64 bit and core was not.

0:27:48But see, to me, this was this was a kind of marketing jujitsu here.

0:27:52A lot of people thought that a lot of people kind of missed the word duo and they thought core duo after core to do came out.

0:28:00They assumed core duo only had one core and the core to duos were dual core.

0:28:05And that was not the case. The core to do sounds like it could be twice as good as core duo.

0:28:09It wasn't. And in fact, you can go fortunately, the wonderful site, every Mac, which I'm sure all of us are familiar with being Apple nerds, every Mac has benchmark histories for all these Macs they list.

0:28:19And so we can see now modern version of Geek Bench, modern versions of Geek Bench are 64 bit only.

0:28:24So they were never run on this computer. But you can go look at like the old Geek Bench to 32 bit scores and you can see actually the core duo versus core to duo at the same clock speed.

0:28:38The core to duo is only about four percent faster in Geek Bench.

0:28:42They both have the same Max RAM of two gigs because this is back when when the standard amount of RAM was like 512.

0:28:50So the idea that they would support more than four gigs of memory in theory, that's great, but they didn't need it yet.

0:28:55And the motherboards couldn't support that anyway. So every Mac actually published a whole article.

0:28:59How much faster is the core to duo than the core duo?

0:29:02And they said, quote, the core to do a processor design is modestly more efficient than the core duo processor that it replaced.

0:29:10And they even quoted a section of a Mac world review that has that since now at four fours, because it's ancient URL.

0:29:18Mac ran their speedmark benchmark and they said the core duo scored 210.

0:29:24The core to duo scored 232. So 10 percent faster. But that was at an eight percent faster clock speed, too.

0:29:31So when you actually compare the core to do to the core duo.

0:29:36Yes, 64 bit software compatibility mattered way, way, way down the line.

0:29:41But at the time they were released, this was not a huge difference.

0:29:44It was it was like, you know, a spec bump, basically. It was between five and 10 percent faster on most things.

0:29:52And much of the speed increase was due to the fact that the core to duo, because it was newer, it was available in higher clock speeds eventually.

0:30:01So that was more relevant to the to the performance gains than than the actual core design.

0:30:08In other words, I was right.

0:30:09Your complaint, though, now, your complaint was that I was saying like the core to duo is way better.

0:30:13Because why you'd feel so bad getting the core duo, the only 32 bit Intel Macs, if less than a year later, you get a core to do over 64 bit.

0:30:21I think that's a big deal, not because Mac OS 10 or something is something going to drop 32 bit support, because that happened way later.

0:30:27But because, as Michael wrote in to tell us, software that's recompiled in 64 bit goes way faster.

0:30:33I don't even know if these benchmarks were compiled for 64 bit for the core to duo.

0:30:37That's the whole point, that it's not just like, oh, it's 64 bits.

0:30:40You can get bigger integers or whatever. It's substantially changed architecture.

0:30:43X86 64 is different, more registers.

0:30:45Oh, yeah.

0:30:46Better vector things, right?

0:30:47But I don't know if the benchmarks you're citing here even in 64.

0:30:50But even if they are comparing clock for clock, who cares?

0:30:52The whole point is you feel bad because you got the iMac with the bad processor.

0:30:55You're not when you get the core to duo, you don't care that the other one is even if it was equally fast clock for clock and yours is clock tire.

0:31:01The whole point is you bought a loser machine less than a year later.

0:31:05A much better one came out for basically the same price and you're stuck in this little area all by yourself with 32 bit.

0:31:11I still say core duo is much worse.

0:31:14And I even forgotten about the 64 bit things.

0:31:16And by the way, that same article you cited from every Mac, the very last line of the article is,

0:31:20"Ultimately, 10 to 20 percent faster may not be quite as high as Apple's grandiose claims, but still substantial nevertheless."

0:31:27So you just quoted the line that said, "Modestly more efficient," and they say, "Substantial nevertheless, 10 to 20 percent."

0:31:32The core duo, you wanted that one, not the core duo.

0:31:35Well, but see, to me, it's a similar level of performance increase as going from M1 to M2.

0:31:40The fact is, the M1 is really, I'm using the M1 now.

0:31:44But we don't know it's the same performance increase because we don't know if these benchmarks were running 64 bit on the core duo.

0:31:49If they weren't, it's not a fair or representative comparison because things went 64 bit pretty fast.

0:31:53You know why? Because this was literally the only 32 bit Intel's ever made.

0:31:57Everything else was 64 bit Intel.

0:31:58And so software was recompopulating 64 bit Intel, and it got faster.

0:32:02And I bet this benchmark did too.

0:32:03Anyway, I would say that my point stands, and Casey, I believe, agrees.

0:32:08The core two duo, yes, it was better, but it wasn't massively better.

0:32:12But my point still stands.

0:32:14If you got the core duo and then seven months later your friend got the core two duo, you felt like you got the loser Mac.

0:32:19No, nobody cared except you.

0:32:21I don't know.

0:32:23People who lived through it, Marco says he loved his core duo and thought it was great, but maybe he's just like...

0:32:27It was!

0:32:28He really loved his Saturn too, so... and his Sega.

0:32:31What was your memoir, John?

0:32:33No, not everyone cares but me, but I really care something like that.

0:32:36I butchered it, but it's something I'll listen to.

0:32:38You're close, you're close.

0:32:39Nobody else cares but me, but I do care.

0:32:42There it is.

0:32:43I don't think it was a... was it a memoir or was it like an autobiography?

0:32:46Maybe, I don't know.

0:32:47I didn't make up the joke art, so I don't know.

0:32:49Yeah, we need Merlin, but that's alright.

0:32:51Anyway, core two duo forever.

0:32:53Alright, can we move on? Max Wilkie writes,

0:32:56"The 21-inch iMac definitely did come in retina.

0:32:59I still own one that's only a few feet away from me.

0:33:01It's even got an SSD as configured, though I did have to order it as custom.

0:33:04I don't think they ever came standard, so we were debating..."

0:33:07Yeah, this was my fault.

0:33:08No, I was right there with you.

0:33:09I think the reason we remembered is because they kept selling the non-retina one for so long.

0:33:13Not that it was the only thing that you could get, but I think they sold it for way longer than we thought.

0:33:17Yeah, the 21-inch iMac line was the home of like,

0:33:21"Let's keep around the old cheap stuff as long as possible to keep this computer cheap."

0:33:25So they kept around non-retina way longer than everything else, including the MacBook Air, I believe.

0:33:33I'm not positive on that, but it was either the last or the second to last non-retina Mac by a long margin two from the others.

0:33:42And then they kept around the spinning hard drive in that computer longer than every other computer they sell, as far as I know.

0:33:48And by the way, not that we're spoiling the whole tier list thing, but the meta-commentary on things like this and the tier list for youngsters who are listening to the program.

0:33:57We got a lot of feedback about stuff, and even on the program I was trying to remember various things that I won't spoil at this point.

0:34:03I'm like, "Wasn't there some issue with this thing?" or whatever.

0:34:05And anyway, people wrote in to tell us what it actually was.

0:34:08These are all things I knew like the back of my hand when I was writing for Ars Technica.

0:34:13So at the time, I knew all this stuff, every detail, every minute thing. But now do I know them? No.

0:34:19And I know when you're young you think it's weird. How did you know a thing at some time in the past?

0:34:23It's like, you know, it's your hobby and you're super into it and you know all sorts of stats about your favorite computer, your favorite sports team, or your favorite car, or whatever things you're into.

0:34:31But then later in life you don't know them? That's what getting old is like, kids.

0:34:36Just want to tell you about that.

0:34:39You think that if you know something now, you'll always know it. You'll never forget the exact gear ratios of your favorite RC car when you're a kid.

0:34:46But eventually you'll forget what company made that car.

0:34:49That's true.

0:34:51As someone with major memory issues, I can tell you you're right. Who are you again?

0:34:55Alrighty, so that is the end of our "Spoiling Our Own" member special.

0:35:01Tahir Rangwala writes, "I went on a long search for a Mac text editor a few years back and landed on Cut Editor.

0:35:12It's open source, fully Mac native, lightweight, very performant, and rather tasteful in its UI. Also it's being actively maintained."

0:35:18So we can put that on the list.

0:35:20I hadn't heard of this one and if you take a look at it, it's like, "Oh, it looks like a Mac text editor."

0:35:23I heard it described as a Love Child, indie, New Wave clone of Text Made in BB Edit. But anyway, it's a native Mac app and it adds text. You might want to check it out.

0:35:34There you go. And also we have Chime, which from the website is apparently designed to be a model citizen on the Mac.

0:35:40It blends modern features with a minimalist UI and supports language server protocol and extensions.

0:35:44LSP is the thing that lets you plug in a Swift parser into it or something like that?

0:35:49It's a protocol for talking to a language server saying, "Tell me about this language."

0:35:53Lumpy Space Princess?

0:35:54Yeah, exactly. It's another process that runs that your editor communicates with and it tells you about the structure, like where are the keywords.

0:36:02Right, okay, we're basically saying the same thing.

0:36:04Anyway, this one, Chime, is kind of like a tiny indie Mac version of VS Code in terms of what the UI looks like.

0:36:12But obviously this is the bad description of both of them. You should check them both out because they're both small and new and interesting.

0:36:17And I hadn't heard of either one.

0:36:19And then, apparently we didn't want me to suffer just once. Nay, let me suffer twice.

0:36:25John put in follow-up with regard to Neilean.

0:36:29Neilean?

0:36:30Did you listen to the MP3 that I put in there?

0:36:32I did, but it was hours ago.

0:36:33But you'd forgotten what it sounded like, right?

0:36:35Exactly. Who are you again? Hi, this is Casey.

0:36:38So anyway, Neilean wrote the trans--

0:36:42I'm going to say Nee-lee-en.

0:36:44Okay, that wonderful person writes, "The transcription I usually give to English speakers is Nee, N-E-E, Lay, L-A-Y, A-N, A-N-N, Nee-lee-en."

0:36:54I think that's right.

0:36:55Anyways, also I found a French text-to-speech website that does a pretty good job.

0:36:59And we will link that in the show notes because apparently I am inept.

0:37:03Yeah, so lots of people sent us, "Oh, here's a website that has name pronunciations."

0:37:06My point with the whole, like, this is a space ripe for disruption was not that there are not lots of these sites, it's that all these sites are bad.

0:37:12And so every time someone sent me a site, whether I knew about the site or not, I went to it, looked up this person's name, and then sent them a screenshot showing that this site does not know this person's name.

0:37:21But if it did know, it probably had a weird pronunciation.

0:37:23And in terms of the pronunciation, I think it's an interesting feature of French, I think, where the pronunciation here is N-E-E-L-A-Y, and we would say Lay.

0:37:33But if you listen to the MP3, it's more like Lay.

0:37:36Anyway, maybe we'll put the MP3 in the show notes, or I guess maybe a link to the Toot in the show notes, which has a little video to hear the name.

0:37:43But Milia and I think we figured it out kind of sort of finally at the end.

0:37:47And it's a criminal that these websites that supposedly are all about pronouncing people's names don't have your name, because I have a feeling your name is not super duper rare.

0:37:55Did you know it's called Fully?

0:37:57Anonymous writes, "I'm the subject of Apple, Disney, trash cans, and Apple's inability to design places for humans the way that Disney can.

0:38:04When building Apple Park, the designers, for whatever reason, neglected to put trash cans in each office.

0:38:08Instead, each hallway was given a few large bins, which are of course beautifully integrated into the design,

0:38:13with the apparent intention that people would get up from their desk and walk over to the nearest receptacle whenever they had something to throw away.

0:38:19I'm sure this will shock you, but this is not what ended up happening.

0:38:22Employees got so frustrated, in fact, that they eventually started just leaving their trash in piles outside their doors, which disrupted the beautiful design of the space somewhat.

0:38:29Eventually, the facilities team came to put a small, ugly, grey, plastic, rubber-made looking trash can outside every office where they remain to this day.

0:38:36Can we go back to how unbelievably upset I am that people, people who are presumably intelligent to have gotten a job at Apple, are thinking it is okay to throw trash on the ground because you can't be bothered?

0:38:50Don't blame the people. It's a failure of design.

0:38:52No, what kind of Apple decides to not get up and put their trash in the trash?

0:38:57Oh, we have janitors for that. Screw you! That's not their job to pick up your trash.

0:39:01It's their job to move the trash receptacles to other trash receptacles. It's not there to pick up after you, you big whiner.

0:39:07I'm not endorsing throwing trash on the garbage, but I will say that I had no idea about this story when I used trash cans as an example of how Apple might not be as good at designing spaces for real humans as Disney is.

0:39:17But in fact, it was not just like, "Here's an analogy." No, literally trash cans at Apple Park.

0:39:22I mean, I find this first of all totally unsurprising that this was not properly accounted for.

0:39:27But second of all, see, what I would do is I would never throw trash on the ground. That's not me at all.

0:39:32But I would sneak in an unauthorized trash can.

0:39:36That is big Marco energy.

0:39:38I was going to say, the supposed solution to having the Rubbermaid trash cans outside every office, how does that help? It's still not near you. You still got to get up and go over there and put the... anyway.

0:39:45That's exactly the type of things they talk about in these parks where you make this beautiful space and you think this is the way it should be, but then people enter it and people act like people and you're like, "No people! Act differently!"

0:39:55And really you need to design the space to account for the people, even the bad people who put trash on the ground.

0:40:01Alright, Ezekiel Ellen writes with regard to Mac Photos editing,

0:40:05"When you're in Photos, you can edit in an external program one of two ways. As mentioned on the show, while in edit mode, the dot dot dot button has a list of apps that support editing in Photos.

0:40:15But you can also right-click the photo and choose edit with, which has a shortcut command return for last used app.

0:40:22This will open the photo, usually in TIFF format, in that app and save the edited photo back to your library when you're done. Any app that can open Photos can be used this way.

0:40:31In all cases, you can never modify or lose the original. Photos always retains the original image. On the show you referred to the flatten option in Pixelmator Pro.

0:40:40If you choose flatten, then the resulting image is flattened and saved back to your library as the current edit.

0:40:45If you choose to preserve edits, Photos retains additional metadata so that it can restore the editing session if you bring Pixelmator Pro's extension back up within Photos.

0:40:53Whether you have the ability to finally adjust edits or not, the revert to original button is always present in the editing session if the current photo has ever been modified."

0:41:02Yeah, that was the distinction I missed. There's no way to lose the original, but the preserve edits preserves them so if you go back to the editor, like your layers or whatever the hell you did in the editor, that is preserved.

0:41:13I always do the preserve thing so I didn't actually know what the flatten did and what the distinction was, but it's good to know that no matter what I pick, it's never going to mess with my original photo.

0:41:21And then also from Ezekiel Ellen with regard to dumb TVs, "I have a TCL Roku TV and I keep it disconnected from the internet. When you do this, an LED flashes forever until it's reconnected. I used a pair of pliers to remove the LED from the circuit board."

0:41:38That's a perfectly good, cheap 4K TV.

0:41:40I thought this was going to go, I put a piece of tape over it, but sure, pliers. I put this in here just to show how aggressive these companies are getting about insisting you're on the internet.

0:41:51Like a hardware thing with a light flashing your face that you can't disable is pretty severe.

0:41:57I guess the next phase is some giant dialogue in the middle of your television that doesn't go away until you connect to the internet, but I suppose if someone's watching something on broadcast television over the air or watching a plastic disc spinning somewhere and they lose internet connection and they can't watch TV, they're going to be pretty angry.

0:42:14And then finally, Apple TV Plus in games.

0:42:19Let me tackle this one before you go into it because this is something that we talked about on the show where we talked about Disney and I put it in there specifically to remind myself to make a particular point and I didn't make it.

0:42:30I made a bunch of other points, which I also wanted to make, but I missed this one.

0:42:33This was the Aaron Thomas question that was like, "Sony and Nintendo have good relationships with game developers. What can Apple and Google learn from them?"

0:42:40It's related to the Disney thing in a bunch of ways, but the final way that I want to mention is we were talking about Apple keeping its hands off stuff like Apple keeping its hands off beats and whether or not they're doing that.

0:42:50Apple keeping its hands off the people who make the Apple TV Plus shows and not telling them that they can't have nudity or violence and stuff like that despite the rumors.

0:42:58So I think there is something to the idea that Apple's ability to keep its hands off, and this sounds so weird because obviously these things are part of Apple, like Apple TV Plus, the studio is part of Apple and beats is part of Apple.

0:43:11But when I tell you Apple, I'm talking about the Apple that acquired those companies.

0:43:16So that Apple, the core Apple, the Apple that does computer products.

0:43:19The Apple core.

0:43:20Ding.

0:43:21Yeah, there you go.

0:43:22That part, can it keep its hands off when it acquires a business that does something that it previously didn't have expertise in?

0:43:29Or even when it grows organically, we're going to start our own television and movie studios.

0:43:32We have no expertise in this.

0:43:33We've never done it before, but we're going to hire a bunch of people.

0:43:36They're going to be part of Apple, but we're going to let them do what they know how to do because we know that we don't know how to do it and we shouldn't mess with them and we'll give them guidance and some direction, but mostly let them do what they want.

0:43:48Versus buying something like beats where it's like, "Well, we make headphones.

0:43:50We'll talk to them a little bit or whatever."

0:43:51I think Apple is much better able to keep its hands off stuff when it is far away from things that it does, and I think that's part of its big problem with games.

0:44:01Getting to Aaron's question, why are they so bad at games?

0:44:03Why did Nintendo and Sony have good relationships with developers?

0:44:06Why does Apple and Google not?

0:44:08I can't speak to Google right now, but Apple, I think the reason Apple and games gets messed up is because Apple and gaming impacts directly on all of Apple's core businesses.

0:44:19The Mac, the phone, the Apple TV.

0:44:22Apple is like, "Well, we know about that stuff. We're Apple. Of course we know about making Macs.

0:44:27We know about making operating systems and we know about GPUs and all that stuff."

0:44:32They feel like they have expertise in that area.

0:44:36To the extent that there is any overlap between what you need to do to be good at games and existing Apple business and technologies that Apple thinks it already knows, there is conflict.

0:44:44That, I think, is a big reason why Apple has such problems with games because games touch so many parts of their business.

0:44:50Apple says, "Don't tell us what to do. We know how to do this. Don't tell us whether we should have Nvidia GPUs or external GPUs at all.

0:44:58We know what we're doing. We know what's right for this business.

0:45:00Don't tell us whether we need OpenGL in our operating system or Vulkan. We don't need that. We're going to do Metal."

0:45:04There is so much entrenched expertise and knowledge and experience related to gaming-related stuff inside Apple that it's very difficult for Apple to grow organically or allow it to come in from the outside.

0:45:17People who have different ideas and say, "Well, you know, here's how Microsoft does it and how they interface with game developers and it seems to work better for them.

0:45:24Because look at all the games on their platforms and they have a console and so on and so forth.

0:45:27And here's how other companies interface with Sony. We brought in these people from Activision or whatever and they're telling us, "Well, if you want to do well in the gaming industry, you've got X, Y, and Z."

0:45:37And that runs right up against Apple folks saying, "I've been working on the Mac for 25 years and you're not going to tell me what I need to do to my hardware or software platform to do better for gaming."

0:45:48And that's why I think that's related to this question. That's part of the reason that Apple has such trouble with games. It just overlaps too much.

0:45:55Whereas Disney, I would imagine theme parks does not overlap too much. Although, Apple might say, "We know how to make spaces for humans. Look at Apple Park. It's perfect." Except for the Rubbermaid garbage cans.

0:46:04Consider becoming an ATP member today. ATP membership gets all sorts of fun little goodies, but the big two are the ad-free feed and bonus content.

0:46:16So, here's what you get. The ad-free version of the show. You don't hear messages like this or other sponsorships and instead you get an ad-free feed that you can add to whatever podcast player you want to use.

0:46:26It's a URL unique to you, so you can just do whatever you want with it. Listen anywhere you want. Of course, I have my opinion, but you can listen to any player you want that supports URLs.

0:46:35So, anyway, that's the big one. You get an ad-free version of the show. You also get whatever kind of member special content we decide to release. Usually, this is about maybe once a month or so, we'll do some kind of member special.

0:46:49And so we've done things like movie reviews, we've taste tested food on the air, most recently we did two tier lists. A tier list ranking every iPhone to date and just this week, a tier list ranking every iMac to date.

0:47:03So, there's member exclusive content and the ad-free feed. Those are the big ones and it's just a great way to support the show. There are other smaller perks as well. I'll get to those later in the show.

0:47:12But basically, that's what you're mostly paying to support the show and you get the ad-free feed and member exclusive content. It's a bunch of fun. So, see for yourself. It's just eight bucks a month at atp.fm/join.

0:47:23Thank you so much for considering being a member today and we really hope you check it out atp.fm/join. Thank you so much.

0:47:31We talked a few episodes ago, I don't recall exactly when, about Marco's quest to get better security cameras. And I guess the quick summary was you had, what did you have that was constantly failing, Marco?

0:47:46I had the Logitech Circle View HomeKit secure video cameras. And I've used them for about two years. They would just constantly fall off the network and were constantly not connected or would have long delays and then fail to connect or whatever else.

0:48:03So, since talking about this, we got a ton of recommendations for Ubiquiti cameras and also a ton of people saying, "I also have the Logitech Circle View and it has the same problem for me."

0:48:16So, that was very vindicating that it isn't just me. That everyone's Logitech Circle Views kind of suck. And that was kind of the story with almost every consumer grade Wi-Fi camera that we heard about.

0:48:30Everyone basically said the same thing. The Eufy cameras seem to be a little more reliable in people's reports, but still not super reliable.

0:48:41And everyone kept telling me the exact same thing. First of all, because I had asked about Ubiquiti stuff, because I already have Ubiquiti networking gear and I like it a lot.

0:48:47And so, I knew they had cameras. I asked people if they were any good. Everyone said yes. And everyone also wrote in to basically say, "Pretty much any power over Ethernet wired camera is very good compared to Wi-Fi cameras."

0:49:02And so, you don't have to necessarily go Ubiquiti. There's all sorts of PoE cameras that you... As long as you can run Ethernet wiring to where you have to be and you have a PoE supplying switch or injectors of some kind, then that's the way to go.

0:49:17Everyone told me that. So, of course, I bought a bunch of Ubiquiti stuff. That's my standard operating procedure.

0:49:25Quick review of how this went. In short, extremely well. I've been using the Ubiquiti and UniFi Protect setup now for, I think, about three weeks. It has been awesome.

0:49:40So, first of all, a couple of drawbacks. This whole thing is super expensive. This is the pro level thing.

0:49:48A while ago, I was trying to help out my town with their meetings. I talked about it very briefly on the show with the microphone equipment they should use for meetings.

0:49:56I was recommending, based on my limited experience with wireless mics, I was recommending a pro-grade Shure, the SLXD wireless system.

0:50:07Because I had used some of the lower end consumer-y kind of stuff before, it would always have static or dropouts. It was using 2.4 GHz instead of some of the UHF frequencies.

0:50:19I had run into all the limitations of consumer-grade gear in wireless mics. You get the better stuff, it will not drop out. It will not have static.

0:50:29It will just work. And it has just worked. It has been perfect. It has been flawless. There has not been a single dropout. There is not even a blip of static ever. They just work.

0:50:42That's what you pay for when you get pro gear. Pro gear, when you're using a microphone or a camera or whatever, when you're using this stuff professionally, similar with computer gear too,

0:50:52when you're using this stuff professionally, you can't afford to have it not work. If it doesn't work, bad stuff happens. You have to re-shoot a scene or some high stakes thing gets ruined or gets messed up.

0:51:06Or you look bad because you're trying to be professional and then you show up with amateur gear or whatever. You need it to work 100% of the time.

0:51:14In the camera business, Wi-Fi cameras are the consumer-level gear. They are inexpensive. If you don't have super high needs, and especially if you're price-sensitive, they're a great option.

0:51:28But they kind of suck. You kind of get what you pay for. And now that I've used PoE cameras, no question, this is the pro gear.

0:51:38And that's why the setup costs more. And that's why it has a little bit higher startup requirements. It's the pro system.

0:51:45And when you want it to work 100% of the time or very, very close to that, that's what you go for. You go for wired Ethernet supplying power and data over a cable, no Wi-Fi.

0:51:57And these are like heavy duty materials and enclosures and everything. It's pro gear.

0:52:03To get started with a Ubiquiti camera system, you need something that acts as the video recorder.

0:52:11They have a few pieces of equipment you can do this with. I went with the small version of their NVR, the network video recorder. They have one that has a whole bunch of bays.

0:52:21I went with the one that only has four bays because it was a lot cheaper and I don't need any more than that.

0:52:25A couple of little drawbacks here. It's a few hundred bucks. A couple of little drawbacks. It has four hard drive bays, but it does not, as far as you can tell, does not let you configure the RAID.

0:52:33It just automatically does it. So I bought two hard drives thinking I would run them in RAID 0 basically because this data is not super important that I'm worried about a hard drive crash.

0:52:44Like erasing last week's footage, it isn't that important that I need to keep it. So I was thinking just to maximize space and retention time, I'd put two disks in it.

0:52:53Little did I know that two disks in the Ubiquiti NVR will always and only be configured as RAID 1. So I only had the space of one of them.

0:53:03So they're only redundant and there's no way to make it use two disks as all their space. If you only have two disks in there, it does RAID 1. If you add any more, it does RAID 5.

0:53:13How did you not immediately buy a third disk?

0:53:15Why? I mean it's...

0:53:17Because you're Marco.

0:53:18I decided, alright, you know what, this is fine. Whatever.

0:53:21Alright. Well, set the clock on that third hard drive everybody.

0:53:24Yeah, right.

0:53:26Secondly, when you get into Ubiquiti stuff, they have all these like UniFi apps.

0:53:32And my main router is the original UniFi Dream Machine, which doesn't support network video functionality directly.

0:53:41I thought that by adding an NVR to my network here, I thought that it would integrate better into the Dream Machine so I would have all my like UniFi apps in one screen.

0:53:51It doesn't. You just have to access the NVR via its IP address. Like that's how you access its web interface. Just the IP, you know, the 1 and 2 dot whatever.

0:53:59What I probably should have done is I discussed that for the new house I got the UDM SE, the Dream Machine SE that has the hard drive bay in it and integrates this functionality into the router.

0:54:12I probably should have gotten that for here too. I didn't. Oh well.

0:54:15Because that would have actually integrated it all into one interface.

0:54:18But I already had the Dream Machine here and so this was cheaper, easier, etc.

0:54:23Anyway, it's been working fine. So moving on from the NVR.

0:54:27But if you are doing a new setup, I would get a Dream Machine router that has built in storage.

0:54:32The new ones either have like little SSDs or the big hard drive bay. I would just do that.

0:54:37Anyway, the cameras I got were mostly the G5 Bullet.

0:54:41This seemed somewhat comparable in like, you know, price and quality to the Circle View.

0:54:46Some downsides of the G5 Bullet camera compared to the Circle View.

0:54:50It has a much narrower field of view. So the Circle View has an, I think it's officially a 180 degree view.

0:54:58That's why they call it Circle View. Or at least it's very close to 180 degrees.

0:55:02That would be a half a circle though.

0:55:04Well, that's true. Well the camera is round at least.

0:55:07Speaking of the G5 camera, I know a lot of people wrote in and said, "Oh, even though the G5 is near you, you should get the G4."

0:55:12And I don't remember the reason. Was it like less glare or was it also a field of view thing?

0:55:16No, the reason people cited was that apparently the G5s were mostly a response to COVID supply chain shortages.

0:55:24Where they kind of simplified the camera and they actually made it cheaper.

0:55:28They downgraded some things like from metal to plastic.

0:55:31I don't know too many details because I decided, you know what, for my purposes, I'd rather get the cheaper ones.

0:55:37It's not like you live in a harsh environment. It'll be fine.

0:55:40Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

0:55:42Anyway, yeah, so I went for the newer cheaper models because for my purposes, I wanted to have a few of them.

0:55:49It started to add up if I went to the old ones.

0:55:51Margo's kink is putting electronic devices outside that aren't equipped to deal with the weather.

0:55:56And if he can't put indoor stuff outdoor, he's going to buy the cheapest outdoor stuff he can.

0:56:00Sounds right.

0:56:01G5 versus G4. One of them says it's built more sturdily and the other one is decontended.

0:56:05Ooh, I get a thrill from putting the decontended one out there.

0:56:08Oh my God.

0:56:10That's amazing. I really want to see the picture of what the G5s look like after a year.

0:56:15Okay. Set one of your long-term reminders. Ask me in a year.

0:56:21Anyway, all right, so compared to the Logitech, narrower field of view on the G5 Bullet, which is, it depends where you're putting it.

0:56:30That could be a plus or a minus.

0:56:31I have found with the Logitech, with the ultra-wide view of the Logitechs, you do see more area,

0:56:37but it's kind of like the problem with the center stage cameras in the recent cinema display and recent iPads.

0:56:44You can have an ultra-wide lens and just kind of crop in when you need to see something further in,

0:56:48but that comes at a pretty significant loss in detail. And so it's a trade-off.

0:56:53I had one spot where I kind of missed the wider angle. In all the other spots I put them, I enjoyed the increased detail better.

0:57:01So anyway, it's a trade-off.

0:57:03The Ubiquiti cameras are also substantially larger and I would say uglier, but that also makes them more visible.

0:57:13You know, one of the problems, one of the most important roles that one of these cameras serves is to be visible

0:57:20so that people who are trying to walk under my house to pee under it see the camera and maybe get deterred from peeing there.

0:57:27I've found that the Logitech circle views are so small and discreet that a lot of times people would walk right past it at eye level and not see it.

0:57:36Marcos' house is on stilts, by the way. I really do wonder where people are thinking, like, "People walk under your house to pee? What?"

0:57:42Oh, yeah.

0:57:43It's very high up in the air.

0:57:44Yes, it's near the water so it's on piles. Anyway, the Ubiquiti cameras are much more visible.

0:57:50And so for my purposes, actually that's good. Like, if you want it to be discreet, don't go with these.

0:57:57But if you want them to actually be visible, to be some kind of deterrent to people or whatever, it's actually an upgrade.

0:58:03You could have put big googly eyes on them. You can get those real cheap. They'll hold up to the salt weather. Just giant googly eyes.

0:58:08Oh, yeah. Cheap adhesives on the back of something made of paper, that'll do great.

0:58:12You got to tie it there with a rusty piece of wire.

0:58:15Yeah, exactly. Anyway, I would say the image quality is very good. A little bit better than the circle view.

0:58:23And of course, the narrower field of view helps certain things as well.

0:58:26Mostly what I have loved about the G5 and all the Ubiquiti cameras is that they are far more customizable and tweakable for things like activity zones.

0:58:38So you can draw out, you can load the image in the app and you can draw out, all right, only report person detection in this area.

0:58:46And you draw a polygon of what part of the picture you want to report.

0:58:50And you can define multiple zones. You can set their sensitivity as a percentage.

0:58:56So if you find you're getting too many false positives because your bike seat looks like a person in certain lighting.

0:59:01Yes, that happened to me. You can just turn that down a little bit.

0:59:04Like turn sensitivity down to like, oh, default's 50%, make it 30%. And you can tweak a lot about it.

0:59:10And I found with HomeKit Secure Video, I have found those settings oftentimes don't stick or after a while they reset themselves.

0:59:19I don't know why it's infuriating because like one of these cameras I have pointing basically, you know,

0:59:25the street in front of my house is in the field of view of one of these cameras where the circle view used to be.

0:59:31And I want person detection on the part that's like close to my house.

0:59:36But sometimes Logitech would just forget that setting and would start reporting every single person that walked by on the street, which is not helpful.

0:59:43This was a problem with so many settings for the Logitechs.

0:59:46I would tell them, for instance, stop notifying me every time you disconnect and go offline.

0:59:51And it would remember that for a few days and then forget.

0:59:54And then it would start notifying me every time it went offline.

0:59:56Like that was a constant battle with the HomeKit cameras. It just keeps forgetting my settings or resetting my settings for no apparent reason.

1:00:05So far, the ubiquitous system has never forgotten a setting. You set it and forget it.

1:00:10You said it and it just remembers like, look, it should like, why is that? Why is that not even table stakes? I don't know.

1:00:16And to run a bit of a test on the smarts of these cameras and the speed of these cameras,

1:00:21I've kept one Circle View camera in use. The one by the bikes.

1:00:26Because this is the one every time we leave or come back, we're usually on a bike because it's a bike town,

1:00:31and every time we leave or come back, this camera alerts me so I get a tap tap on my watch when I or anyone else pulls into the bike area.

1:00:37And it's like, oh, hey, Tiff's home. You know, it's great.

1:00:40That Circle View, because it's right next to a wireless access point, that Circle View has been the most reliable.

1:00:46And it's been the most useful because I love that utility.

1:00:49So I wanted to see, you know, one of the advantages of HomeKit is that almost everything about it runs locally on your network.

1:00:55So notifications and responses to things tend to be very fast with HomeKit.

1:01:00Again, that's one of the best things about it.

1:01:02This should, in theory, be as fast because it is also mostly on my network.

1:01:06But I figured, well, to send a notification, they have to like upload the picture to some service somewhere

1:01:12so that the notification can have access to that image from Apple's notification service to show it on the watch or on the phone or whatever.

1:01:19So I figured maybe it'll be slower.

1:01:21And I wanted to also test how smart is the object and person recognition.

1:01:25Is it smarter than Logitech? Is it dumber? Is it slower? Is it faster?

1:01:28So for these three weeks, I've been running both the Logitech and Ubiquiti G5 Bullet in the bike area.

1:01:35The speed has been nearly identical.

1:01:38They're always within, you know, like occasionally one will come in before the other or the other one or it'll flip around the order that they come in.

1:01:46But they're basically exactly as fast. So that's great.

1:01:49They also are about as smart or smarter.

1:01:53Occasionally, the Logitech will report a spider web moving in front of it as a person.

1:01:58So far, the Ubiquiti cameras have never done stupid stuff like that.

1:02:02It did. Again, it did think my bike seat was a person for a while.

1:02:05So I just adjusted that sensitivity and that fixed that problem.

1:02:08Neither one has ever like missed a person.

1:02:12Like when I lowered the sensitivity for the bike area to get rid of the bike seat issue, it didn't start missing people.

1:02:18It's recognizing us every single time.

1:02:20So it's exactly as good for that, if not better.

1:02:24All the detection, you know, the person detection, it's all wonderful.

1:02:28One thing it does not have, the HomeKit notifications, if you long press them on the phone screen or whatever, it would actually play the video clip.

1:02:37These don't do that.

1:02:39These you have to tap and load the app.

1:02:41Like they'll show you the picture, but you have to tap and actually view it in their app to see the actual video clip.

1:02:47But with HomeKit, that was not only unreliable, but slow.

1:02:51A lot of times you'd be waiting a long time for that clip to load or it would never load.

1:02:55With the Ubiquiti cameras, those clips load immediately every single time, whether you are on your network or not.

1:03:02So there have been times during this time where we've been out of town driving box trucks and I was able to see the notifications and load the video clips and see the guys peeing on my house exactly as quickly.

1:03:13Or in most cases, way faster, even though this was then streaming from my own network to the internet rather than coming from HomeKit's secure video servers or anything like that.

1:03:24So the speed of everything is great.

1:03:26And then trying to skim through the timeline using the UniFi Protect app is so much faster and more reliable than trying to skim through the timeline of HomeKit stuff.

1:03:37And of course, as I mentioned last time, this has the advantage of 24/7 recording if you want it to.

1:03:43For some of these I do.

1:03:45HomeKit secure video is only ever motion event based.

1:03:49There is no option in HomeKit for continuous recording.

1:03:53With this you have that option.

1:03:55So I have a few of the cameras doing continuous recording.

1:03:57And it is just so fast and so easy and so reliable.

1:04:01It's awesome.

1:04:03As for the physical setup of them, power over Ethernet is awesome.

1:04:10This is something I already knew from Wi-Fi access points and stuff, but it continues to be awesome.

1:04:15Running the Logitech cameras I had to have some kind of power outlet situation for them to supply them with their USB power somewhere within 15 feet of each camera.

1:04:25And because they're all outside, that involved some logistics like running extension cords in weird places, having those outdoor closed up ceiling boxes around a power strip or something to keep the weather out, John.

1:04:39So there was a whole bunch of, just kind of cruft, that when I went to PoE for these cameras, I could just get rid of all that stuff.

1:04:47Because I could just have these all going into my utility closet and then just run a long cable, like a long Ethernet cable, and that carries power and data for these.

1:04:57So I got to get rid of all those power adapters, all those extension cords, all those USB power bricks, all those outdoor weather enclosures.

1:05:05Got rid of all of them. So it's a way nicer and cleaner setup.

1:05:09How are you feeling about the weather sealing on where it plugs into the cameras?

1:05:13For these to be perfectly weather sealed, you have to either use like a mounting box that itself is sealed, or you can use the mounts they come with but they have like a little rubber gasket in the mount.

1:05:25And it is not wide enough to fit an Ethernet cable end through.

1:05:31I think the idea is you're supposed to just run bare wire and then splice your own end on, you know?

1:05:37That's right, yeah. Professionals don't buy pre-made cables.

1:05:40Right, but I do. Because I've tried making my own cables and I can't do it. Believe me, I've tried.

1:05:45So what did you do? You just plugged it in without the sealing thing?

1:05:47Yeah, I just popped the sealing thing out. And then I used dielectric grease around some of the main connectors.

1:05:52Alright, I was going to ask, because a lot of people send us things like, "Here's what you do for outdoor connections."

1:05:55And it's like you pack the thing with gel or some other thing to keep the air out, essentially.

1:06:00Yeah, that's what I did.

1:06:01I did put that long-term reminder in for a year from now, by the way, because I can't wait to see what these Ethernet connections look like.

1:06:06RJ44 plus dielectric grease plus ocean air.

1:06:09Yeah, exactly.

1:06:11RJ45, sorry.

1:06:12And otherwise, the only other thing I would say is this did require me to buy a couple more switches, a couple more PoE switches.

1:06:19Ubiquiti has this one called the Switch Flex, which seems to be basically made for this purpose.

1:06:25It's an indoor/outdoor compatible switch, and it has PoE kind of pass-through on all the ports.

1:06:32I did have to buy some of the really big 60-watt PoE injectors at the other end of those so that the switches could have enough power to spread around.

1:06:39The cameras use a few watts each, so if you're looking into this budget and plan for possibly some switch upgrades or some power injectors somewhere along the way.

1:06:50Otherwise, I'm super happy with this setup. It is so nerdy, and it is 100% reliable so far.

1:06:57And I just like, look, again, because we're in the middle of moving, selling a house, we have a lot going on in our life right now.

1:07:06It's fine, we're good, but it's very, very busy.

1:07:09And to take something that is super unreliable and irritating and full of paper cuts and to just make it super reliable and just take all those problems away from your life is incredibly satisfying and incredibly valuable, depending on what your life has in it right now.

1:07:26And this is one thing where I had this unreliable system that was driving me nuts, and now it's gone, and in place of it is something that just works super well.

1:07:36Did you end up using Scripted?

1:07:38No, I'm not actually. So Scripted was the app that everyone recommended that allows you to basically bridge any other camera system, including PoE cameras, including Ubiquiti stuff.

1:07:48It allows you to bridge those into HomeKit Secure Video.

1:07:52I thought I would set that up on something, but first of all, I don't have any spare hardware to run it on right now.

1:07:56And I looked at it like, oh, should I buy the low-end Mac Mini or some kind of high-end Raspberry Pi or Intel NUC thing?

1:08:02And I realized, first of all, as previously spoken, I don't have time for this crap right now.

1:08:08And second of all, I don't want to run one of these things just for this.

1:08:10And then third of all, I realized I don't think I actually need it for anything.

1:08:14The only major advantage that would provide me is integrations with features that I don't really use.

1:08:21Like, yes, it turns your other camera system into something that can, for instance, show the person at the door on your Apple TV.

1:08:29Well, I don't do that. I don't use that feature. So I don't really need that.

1:08:33The other thing is it would allow you to have an off-site record of motion events.

1:08:38That is valuable, and at some point I might look into it for that, so that way, in case a hurricane destroys my house,

1:08:45I'll be able to see the video clips up to that point that contain motion.

1:08:48Okay, I mean, I don't know how actionable that is, but it might be worth having at some point.

1:08:54But for now, the value is just not there. I'm just not having these cameras in HomeKit, and it's fine.

1:08:59You couldn't just put a Docker container on your Synology? I know this is like this anathema to you, or however you pronounce the word.

1:09:05I think it's anathema.

1:09:08Anathema, there we go, sorry. It's one of those ones like Bizelle that I've only ever read and never pronounced.

1:09:13Anyways, the point is, I know that you are, like, allergic, how about that, to Docker and anything like it,

1:09:20but this really is the sort of thing that if you were to accept help from another human being, hello, I'm that person,

1:09:26I could get you set up with this, assuming there is a Docker container for scripted, which I would assume there is,

1:09:31then it would be minutes to get this squared away. Like, I cannot speak highly enough how quickly you could get that running on, say, your Synology,

1:09:40leaving aside, like, Surveillance Station or any of that, but you could get that running so fast if you were willing to accept ten minutes of help.

1:09:47Getting the Docker container isn't the hard part. I think it's setting up scripted with the cameras the way he wants it to be.

1:09:53Yeah, that's fair.

1:09:54Making sure it doesn't anger them, and I understand his desire not to overcomplicate it if things are finally working.

1:09:59Well, also, like, there's all sorts of things, there's stuff like Homebridge, all these wonderful apps that are made to connect different smart home things to different systems,

1:10:09and that's great. I'm not at a point in my life where I want to add complexity like that to my setup.

1:10:15Like, I'd rather just have, I'd rather just use the products directly, and to add something like that to my setup, it's a very optimistic thing, thinking,

1:10:24"I'll just set this up, and then these things will be bridged forever." And that's never how it really works.

1:10:28You know, always in practice, you have some kind of hack or bridge like that, every few months you've got to reset it or reconfigure it or figure out why something's not working,

1:10:37and then you have a whole other thing to debug or run or operate. Those Docker containers will eventually need to be updated or will eventually break or something like that.

1:10:44Yes, but that's incredibly easy. But I do agree with what you're saying in principle, but it is so easy.

1:10:49Yeah, but that's, it just, that adds more stuff to my plate, and I'm like, I don't, you know, is this additional integration or feature really worth that level of tinkering and maintenance?

1:11:00And to me, oftentimes the answer is no.

1:11:02Yeah, I mean, you're allowed. It doesn't make you wrong. I just, I cannot overstate how easy this could potentially be if you were interested in it, and it sounds like you're just plain not interested, and that's okay.

1:11:13I remember how excited you were about the Logitech Circle View cameras, so this may be the honeymoon period, and related to that, we got one bit of very adamant feedback from John McMichael who said,

1:11:22"Ubiquity Video Cameras is hot garbage." Ubiquity Video Camera? Singular is hot garbage?

1:11:27"Get yourself some Lor-Ex cameras." L-O-R-E-X.

1:11:31"And tie them into Security Spy." And I believe I found the correct link for Security Spy.

1:11:36Security Spy looks like the type, if you have an apartment building and you want to have a station where there's a security guard looking at a bunch of cameras, that's what it looks like, but it's for the Mac.

1:11:44Looks like an impressive piece of software, but I'm guessing this is not what Marco wants.

1:11:49And that too, I didn't want to run a Mac server. Because again, what I have now, I have this Ubiquity appliance, basically, the NVR doing the recording and everything.

1:11:59I know Ubiquity gear, I know I can just let that run for years and never touch it, never update it, never have to worry about, like, is something going to break, you know, something never falls out of configuration.

1:12:09Right now, I don't run a Mac server at home for any reason. And I'm okay with that.

1:12:17Where's the NVR? Is the NVR in the water closet?

1:12:20Okay, the water is on the floor. It is far, it's up. It's like five feet above any water.

1:12:32Maybe I have a server closet as a term of art, but literal closets and houses tend not to have great ventilation. I do have some concern about the number of other stuff.

1:12:39Oh, no, that, no, it's a utility closet. So it is ventilated, like, it's where I have other networking gear. It's fine.

1:12:46All right, so when you open the door, you don't feel a blast of hot air come out at you?

1:12:50No, no, it's actually partially conditioned the way the house is. So like, you know, right, like when the air conditioning is on, you open the door and you get a blast of cold air.

1:12:58Yes, we know water closet is a term for bathroom. That's not what we mean.

1:13:03Yes, we're aware.

1:13:04See past episodes, it's complicated.

1:13:05It's really not. Yeah. So anyway, this system, look, if you're a nerd, this is awesome.

1:13:10If you're, if you, if you're looking for like a basic, easy to set up, inexpensive, compact home security camera system, this is not that.

1:13:20But if you want something that's really good, like high, high end needs, or just you want something that works really well, and you're willing to probably spend more than you reasonably responsibly should and have all this gear somewhere in your closet somewhere, then this is awesome.

1:13:37This doesn't make sense for most people, but if it makes sense for you, it's really awesome.

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1:15:30[Music]

1:15:37>> Hi, everyone. I'm John. I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:15:42I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:15:44I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:15:46I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:15:48I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:15:50I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:15:52I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:15:54I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:15:56I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:15:58I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:16:00I'm a junior at Smith Family.

1:16:02I'm a junior at Smith Family.

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1:23:32You can help get the name early.

1:23:34A lot of the Gmail ones are taken, which is rough.

1:23:36But you can probably, if you combine their first and last name,

1:23:38or first and middle name, or initials or whatever,

1:23:40you can probably find something.

1:23:42Just don't use numbers.

1:23:44If they want to use numbers, they can.

1:23:46You can't stop them.

1:23:48And it's kind of a shame that I have to say this.

1:23:50That the best thing to do is to have your own domain

1:23:52that you control, but you can't do that for your kids

1:23:54because you don't know whether they're going to be into computers.

1:23:56I wish it wasn't something that you needed to be even

1:23:58a little bit interested in computers to deal with.

1:24:00Again, it's not complicated.

1:24:02We all can do it really easily, right?

1:24:04Oh, fast mail is so easy, or forwarding to Gmail is so easy.

1:24:06But mail delivery is more complicated than you think.

1:24:08And even the simplest things,

1:24:10even just maintaining and continuing to pay for a domain name,

1:24:13which is nothing for people like us who have amassed them like candy

1:24:16and just have way too many domain names,

1:24:18if someone's not into computers in their future life,

1:24:21that's a burden to them, and they're going to mess it up,

1:24:24and it's going to cause problems if they're still using their email address.

1:24:27Michael writes, "What is your expectation towards subscription apps?

1:24:30Do you expect new features in active development,

1:24:32or should it just not break?"

1:24:34I don't know if Marco or I is qualified,

1:24:37but in a position to genuinely answer.

1:24:39You have a subscription app, both of you.

1:24:41I know, but I have my opinions.

1:24:43That's what people are asking.

1:24:45Well, I feel like I'm deeply biased from the developer perspective,

1:24:50which is, hey, it hasn't broken, you should be happy.

1:24:52But from a user perspective, I'm not so sure that's quite so fair.

1:24:56I think it's tough, right?

1:25:00I think from a user perspective, I think something new

1:25:02at least once a year is a reasonable expectation,

1:25:05but again, it's hard, and from a developer's perspective,

1:25:09is the thing that I sold you, is that still working, yes or no?

1:25:13If yes, then we have satisfied the contract.

1:25:16That's basically it, but it doesn't matter to me

1:25:20whether something is adding new stuff all the time.

1:25:23What matters to me is am I getting continued value from it?

1:25:27Now, that can mean a lot of things.

1:25:29As long as it is working for the reasons I went to pay for it in the first place,

1:25:34as long as that continues to function,

1:25:36I'm fine with it even if they don't add any more features.

1:25:39If I'm paying for working software and it continues to work, that's fine.

1:25:47Certainly, ideally, it would at least keep up with the environment around it.

1:25:52So, for instance, if it's an iOS app, Apple announces some new feature for the next OS,

1:25:57and I would expect within a reasonable amount of time after that feature launches,

1:26:02after that OS launches, I would hope that the app would be updated to support it

1:26:06if it made a lot of sense for the app.

1:26:08So that's a lot of conditions. That's a lot of qualifiers.

1:26:11But for instance, this year, iOS 17, big thing is interactive widgets.

1:26:18I would hope that an app that I'm paying an active subscription for,

1:26:22I would hope if it has a lot of value in widgets

1:26:26and if there's a lot of value in those widgets becoming interactive for that app,

1:26:30for the actual role that it serves in my life,

1:26:33I would hope they would update to that within maybe six months of iOS coming out.

1:26:37Ideally sooner, but you know.

1:26:39But meanwhile, if it's an app where a widget doesn't really make a lot of sense,

1:26:43I don't need them to do that.

1:26:45So it all depends, like, what's going on in the environment around it.

1:26:49I don't need new features just for the sake of new features,

1:26:52but if the expectation of software in this area is moving this direction,

1:26:59like for instance, if the OS gets redesigned,

1:27:03apps look totally out of place and totally wrong until they update,

1:27:08that's a shorter timeline expectation for that.

1:27:11If, for instance, when they launch dark mode,

1:27:13if your app doesn't support dark mode for a year after they launch dark mode,

1:27:16like that kind of sucks.

1:27:18But for most apps, as long as what I originally paid for continues to work

1:27:24and they seem to reasonably fit into the surrounding ecosystem still,

1:27:29I'm fine with that.

1:27:31I think when people, if you ask people this question,

1:27:34especially tech nerdy type people, like academically they might say,

1:27:38"Well, kind of what Marco said, like, you know, I don't expect too much,

1:27:42but you should add new features every once in a while

1:27:44and keep up with what the OS and the platform is doing."

1:27:46But it's one of those monkey paw wishes

1:27:48in that if you actually had an app that kept adding stuff,

1:27:52eventually it craps up your app.

1:27:55Like, there is a certain point where an app has not achieved perfection

1:27:59but found the right middle point between having way too many features

1:28:03and way too few features, and that point is different for everybody.

1:28:05But you really don't want an app that just, like, pursues everything.

1:28:09Like, for example, Marco was talking about interactive widgets.

1:28:12"Oh, my app doesn't even have widgets, but I want to use interactive widgets,

1:28:15so I'm going to throw it in. And there's some new feature with ML,

1:28:17I'm going to throw that, and I'm going to throw it."

1:28:18Eventually it makes the app worse, not better.

1:28:21So if you happen to subscribe to an app that's been out for many years

1:28:24and kind of hit maturity, I don't think you should expect,

1:28:28nor should you want, constant new feature additions,

1:28:31because maybe the feature set is pretty close to, like, the right balance.

1:28:35And maybe you can adjust it, "I wish that you had this feature

1:28:37and didn't have this one," and there can be sort of, like,

1:28:39oscillation around the center point, but constant addition of feature

1:28:43makes apps that are too crapped up.

1:28:45The flip side of that is, if you get an app that, you know,

1:28:49feels like it's gotten to that stable point, but then never revisits that,

1:28:54eventually you may be perfectly satisfied with the app and keep paying for it,

1:28:58but eventually, say it's, like, five or ten years in,

1:29:00and your friend has an app that does a similar job,

1:29:03but it, like, looks totally different,

1:29:05or does a whole bunch of different stuff,

1:29:07you may not realize that the competitive market has moved up around that thing,

1:29:10and even though you were perfectly satisfied paying the subscription,

1:29:12you didn't realize, "Oh, actually, there's a new way to do this type of app

1:29:15that is better, and this app hasn't kept up,

1:29:17and it's time for me to jump ship and go elsewhere."

1:29:20And those are all, like, personal decisions,

1:29:22but, like, I definitely did not expect nor want an app

1:29:26to constantly add new features to justify its subscription.

1:29:29What justifies its subscription is what Margot said.

1:29:31Does it still do the thing I wanted to do in the way I wanted to do it?

1:29:34And some people, like, eventually get to the point

1:29:37where they hate change so much that even if the entire competitive landscape

1:29:40around your app has moved on and they're all much better,

1:29:42you still want to use the old one that works the way it did five years ago

1:29:45because that's what you're comfortable with, and that's fine, too.

1:29:48So that's why it's different for every single person,

1:29:50but, yeah, what I want from the app is continues working,

1:29:53fixes any bugs, and I continue to like it for the reasons I like it,

1:29:59and it's kind of what the fear we have about an update.

1:30:02Oh, my favorite app just got updated.

1:30:04A lot of people get filled with dread because, like,

1:30:05did they just change the whole interface?

1:30:07Did they remove a feature that I love?

1:30:08Did they add a new feature that they think is better but is worse for me?

1:30:11Updates are not always a positive, so I absolutely did not expect

1:30:15or want them to constantly add new features.

1:30:17And then, finally, Dennis Czapowicz writes,

1:30:20"I've listened to multiple segments from you regarding backup strategies

1:30:23and password managers, but I never heard you talk about your approach

1:30:25to not losing access to your password manager.

1:30:28I'm asking this because I was recently on a trip in which my phone almost died,

1:30:31which would have caused me to lose access to all my passwords

1:30:33until I returned home.

1:30:34Do you have any specific strategy for having access to services

1:30:37which may be needed when you are not home?"

1:30:39The first option is carry more than one device,

1:30:42or travel with more than one device.

1:30:44With that being said, I don't really have a good answer for this.

1:30:47I use 1Password somewhat begrudgingly now,

1:30:50and so all of that stuff is synced with 1Password,

1:30:54and I can get to it via the web if necessary,

1:30:57but I don't have the super secret, like, it's not a GUID,

1:31:01but it's sort of kind of like a GUID.

1:31:03I don't have that memorized or anything like that.

1:31:05I don't have that in an easily accessible place

1:31:07if I was overseas or something like that.

1:31:09So I really don't have a good answer for this.

1:31:11I believe we've started with Marco the last couple times.

1:31:13So, John, what's your answer?

1:31:15I think you're right. Redundancy.

1:31:17If you really need to have access to it on the road,

1:31:19don't just bring one phone, because what if you drop it in a car,

1:31:23runs over it or whatever, have multiple devices for it.

1:31:25In the broader sense, not losing access means all those things

1:31:29that people click through to get to what they wanted to do

1:31:32that says, "Oh, print out these backup codes and put them in a safe place."

1:31:35Like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do that later," and you don't do it.

1:31:37That's a mistake. Do that. Print the backup codes.

1:31:39Put them in a safety deposit box in a bank, right?

1:31:41Like, do, like, especially for, like, the things that are the keys to the kingdom,

1:31:45like, the things to access your main e-mail account,

1:31:48which is what you register at all your accounts and all your other services with,

1:31:51so you can use the "forgot my password" thing or whatever.

1:31:53What if you lose all access to that, all your devices get wiped,

1:31:56your house burns down, you don't have any devices with one password

1:31:59or iCloud keychain, it's just, you know, again, the Cloud Sync ones,

1:32:02you should still be able to get back by sending your Apple ID, but whatever.

1:32:05Disaster strikes, physical backup, that's why those backup codes exist,

1:32:09for your key accounts. Obviously not for everything,

1:32:11but for, like, your key accounts, make sure you actually do the thing

1:32:14they tell you to do, which is to print out the backup codes.

1:32:16And don't pin them to your refrigerator.

1:32:18Like, you know, put them in an actual safe place somewhere.

1:32:22Have them offsite if possible.

1:32:24If you have a safety deposit box at a bank, that's good.

1:32:27You could have them over a relative's house and they're safe or something,

1:32:29something like that. But that's broader than just travel.

1:32:32Travel, I think, Casey nailed it. You know, redundancy, more than one device.

1:32:36Marco.

1:32:37You know, I also use one password.

1:32:39I mean, I use one password and Apple iCloud keychain,

1:32:43which is still exactly as messy as it sounds.

1:32:46I still have not resolved that.

1:32:49But anyway, you know, my one password, you know, they have, like,

1:32:52these recovery code things, and I have those in a physically secure place.

1:32:57I have them, like, you know, on paper in a physically secure place.

1:33:00And I would say, you know, whether that's, like, you know, a safe somewhere,

1:33:04a lock box, a bank safety deposit box, like, whatever it is for you,

1:33:08I would suggest doing that.

1:33:10You know, humans are pretty good at guarding physical important things.

1:33:14You know, we have important documents that we have to keep as people on Earth

1:33:18and things like that.

1:33:19And so, you know, we've gotten good at, like, guard this physical piece of paper

1:33:22as if it's very important to you.

1:33:24And so whatever mechanism you have in place for that, I would say do that.

1:33:27The risk to somebody like, you know, most of us is not super high

1:33:33because most risk of, like, you know, losing access or having hackers

1:33:37gain access to our accounts would usually happen remotely.

1:33:40It would usually be Internet-based.

1:33:42You know, not somebody breaking into your house and finding your lock box

1:33:45and stuff like that.

1:33:46Yeah, use those recovery codes. I don't use those for everything.

1:33:49Like, a lot of those I will just store in 1Password or Apple Keychain

1:33:54or both in some weird, messy way.

1:33:56But, you know, use those -- use the backup codes, store them somewhere,

1:34:00but for the really important stuff like 1Password itself or maybe Dropbox,

1:34:05you know, depending on, like, you know, how you're using these different services,

1:34:07maybe your Apple ID, the really important stuff that you would need to, like,

1:34:10bootstrap a new device or a new access setup,

1:34:14have actually the physical codes for those things so that you can, you know,

1:34:18if all of your hardware is gone, whether it gets stolen

1:34:22or maybe it gets destroyed in a flood or a fire or whatever,

1:34:24if all your hardware is gone, how do you get back into your digital life?

1:34:28If you can just -- if you, like, you buy a new laptop or iPhone,

1:34:31how do you get back in?

1:34:33Have a plan for that in some way that does not rely on you just having access

1:34:38to another device.

1:34:39That's it.

1:34:41All right. Thank you to our sponsor this week, Squarespace,

1:34:44and thank you to our members who support us directly.

1:34:46You can join and hear all our fun new stuff at atp.fm/join.

1:34:50And we will talk to you next week.

1:34:53[music]

1:34:56Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin.

1:35:00'Cause it was accidental.

1:35:02Accidental.

1:35:03Oh, it was accidental.

1:35:05Accidental.

1:35:06John didn't do any research.

1:35:08Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

1:35:11'Cause it was accidental.

1:35:13Accidental.

1:35:14Oh, it was accidental.

1:35:15Accidental.

1:35:16And you can find the show notes at atp.fm.

1:35:22And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

1:35:31So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M.

1:35:35Anti-Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C.

1:35:40U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A.

1:35:43It's accidental.

1:35:44Accidental.

1:35:46They didn't mean to.

1:35:48Accidental.

1:35:49Accidental.

1:35:51♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

1:35:55So, I don't even know what to do.

1:35:59So, I am subscribed to UPS My Choice, is what it used to be called.

1:36:04I don't know what it's called now.

1:36:06What that lets you do is say, "Okay, I am the resident at such and such an address.

1:36:10Whenever something is shipped to me via UPS, let me know.

1:36:13And give me a tracking number and let me know some information about it."

1:36:17So, a day or two ago, I got an email saying that something was coming to me

1:36:21and was arriving, I guess, that day or whatever.

1:36:24I was like, "Well, that's odd. I have no idea what this is."

1:36:27And so I signed into UPS My Choice and it said that there was a 36-pound package coming to me,

1:36:33which was a little bit confusing, to say the least.

1:36:38And...

1:36:39Dog food?

1:36:40No, no. I didn't have anything that I knew about that was coming that was heavy.

1:36:44And it is relatively unusual that we get shipments for anything but Chewy,

1:36:49if it's dog food time, which it's almost, but not yet, and Amazon.

1:36:53So, we do get UPS shipments and occasionally FedEx shipments, but it's fairly unusual.

1:36:57And usually, Aaron and I will be aware of what's forthcoming.

1:37:01So, I see there's a 36-pound shipment and I was able to log into My Choice

1:37:06and get information about where it was shipped from.

1:37:08And I genuinely don't remember the town, but it was quickly apparent to me

1:37:13that Marco has been taking care of things within his house.

1:37:19Now, what's funny is I think it was literally the day before that we had recorded the iMac tier list.

1:37:25I guess this was Monday, because we recorded Sunday nights.

1:37:28I guess this was Monday, maybe Tuesday.

1:37:30So, it was like a day within 48 hours of recording the iMac tier list

1:37:33where I had thoughts about a couple of iMacs.

1:37:37And most of the iMacs didn't care.

1:37:39A couple of them, though, I had some real big thoughts.

1:37:42And one of them, and I won't name what it is, well, I guess I have to name what it is.

1:37:47I will say that I have really big thoughts about the iMac Pro.

1:37:51And I went to the front door after this package was delivered

1:37:56and it was one of those, not trapezoidal, but one of those pizza wedge-shaped boxes.

1:38:01And I knew immediately, well, actually, my first thought was,

1:38:05"Oh, he sent me the LG 5K," which actually, I wouldn't mind having another.

1:38:09You know, it would be kind of fun to have that as a porch monitor

1:38:12rather than my beloved but not very remarkable 4K monitor.

1:38:16And then it occurred to me, "Oh, no, no, no, no. This is not a rectangle. This is a pie.

1:38:21Oh, God, he sent me an iMac."

1:38:23And I opened it up and sure enough, I am now the reluctant owner of your old iMac Pro.

1:38:29So, thanks, bud. What the hell am I supposed to do with this?

1:38:35Did you open it?

1:38:37I saw that there was an i-- what appeared to be an iMac in there.

1:38:41I didn't look closely at it. Oh, God. Oh, no.

1:38:43You're such an amateur about getting junk from Marco.

1:38:46You have to look in the box. What are you doing?

1:38:48Is it nearby?

1:38:49It's downstairs, but I am happy to go get it.

1:38:52Oh, Jesus. All right, do I need to go downstairs?

1:38:54There could be a live animal in there.

1:38:55Carry it upstairs and open it up.

1:38:56All right, hold on. I'm going to disappear for a minute,

1:38:58so God only knows what you're going to say while I'm gone.

1:39:00But all right, I will let you know when I'm back. I am disappearing.

1:39:03Keep the box closed and carry it upstairs closed.

1:39:07No, you have to pause. We're going to have to edit this out.

1:39:09Vamp for a minute, because I want to hear about John's stuff.

1:39:11So, vamp. I'm leaving. I'm leaving. I'm leaving.

1:39:12All right.

1:39:13[music]

1:39:16Okay, I'm back.

1:39:17I want you to open it up on the air.

1:39:19Okay, okay, hold on.

1:39:21So, what I'm going to try to do here, because I don't have the slack on my microphone,

1:39:24so hold on. Bear with me.

1:39:26Hold on. I got to undo-- I'm going to regret--

1:39:28Just use the microphone and the LG. It'll be fine.

1:39:30[laughter]

1:39:32Too soon.

1:39:33All right, hold on. I got to take all this god darn Velcro off.

1:39:37I'm going to have so many regrets when I try to put this together tomorrow.

1:39:40It's a puppy.

1:39:41That's not funny.

1:39:42It's a 37-pound puppy.

1:39:44I'm saying this, but you have to always--

1:39:46Do you get a box like that and not actually look what's in it?

1:39:48I thought I peeked at it, and I'm guessing--

1:39:50You got to take everything out. Come on.

1:39:52You don't know what he's hiding in there.

1:39:54It could all be packed with Kindles.

1:39:56It better not be. Oh, my God.

1:39:58I think I ran out. I sent them all to you.

1:40:00All right, I can't-- my microphone--

1:40:03Okay, I can't do this very well.

1:40:05I only got some slack, but I've got enough.

1:40:07Oh, Jesus, this weighs a ton.

1:40:09Don't drop the iMac, and don't put it anywhere near the windshield of any of your cars.

1:40:13Aaron has now come in and is very concerned.

1:40:16Can you imagine if he shatters his glass desk by touching it with the corner of the iMac Pro?

1:40:20Oh, that'd be amazing.

1:40:22Hold on. She's helping me lift it because I am chained to the desk here.

1:40:27Oh, there's actually-- there's Tom Binns in here.

1:40:30Ooh, I like that.

1:40:32In the keyboard slot in the iMac box. All right.

1:40:35Did you not send them peripherals because you were using them?

1:40:38No, I did not look closely enough, clearly.

1:40:41All right, there's the box that once had-- thank you, Aaron--

1:40:44that once had a power supply in it.

1:40:46Hold on. Let me put this back on here.

1:40:50A power supply? What are you talking about?

1:40:52The cord. Oh, there's cords in here.

1:40:54Oh, yeah, the power cord.

1:40:56Oh, mother of God, this looks like the connector for an LG.

1:40:59All right, hold on.

1:41:01How do we get this out? Oh, God.

1:41:04I just lifted the goddamn thing, and I can tell from the stupid lifting mechanism

1:41:09this is the LG 5K. You're finally rid of it.

1:41:12[laughs]

1:41:15It fits perfectly in an iMac Pro box.

1:41:17So, actually, I need to take a picture of this because it is flawless. Hold on.

1:41:22The live listeners won't be able to see this.

1:41:25My office is a freaking mess right now.

1:41:27Hold on. I've got to take a picture of this because it fits flawlessly in the box.

1:41:31Oh, my God. This is perfect.

1:41:33Well, hey, now I can tell you I am not the reluctant owner of your old iMac Pro.

1:41:37I'm the happy owner of a second LG 5K.

1:41:41That's super delightful.

1:41:42So you looked in the box, and you couldn't tell the difference between an LG 5K and an iMac Pro?

1:41:46I only glanced at it.

1:41:47I had that big white, kind of foamy wrapper that goes around the iMac.

1:41:53Exactly. That's all I saw. And it looked right to me.

1:41:55I still had that, so I put that around the LG because it fits perfectly.

1:41:58I'm going to put it in slack, and then maybe, Marco, this is not a great picture because it's dark in here, blah, blah, blah.

1:42:03But maybe, Marco, you can...

1:42:05You can turn the lights on. It's okay.

1:42:07No, because the... Well, first of all, I want to remain sleepy in my sleepy clothes and my sleepy shirt, but beyond that...

1:42:13You just lifted a 40-pound box.

1:42:15I know. Tell me about it.

1:42:16But beyond that, the more important thing is that there's a piddly little teeny tiny light bulb in the overhead fan,

1:42:22which I've now been forbidden to turn on during recording.

1:42:25And even if I did turn it on, the light bulb is currently blown because I never use it.

1:42:29So there is no light in this room.

1:42:31It was like a scene from Blair Witch, the lighting that you've got going on in this room.

1:42:36So anyway, so I've just put it in slack for you two, and maybe we can make it the chapter art for this chapter.

1:42:42What's missing there is a gigantic, silver, dark silver space gray foot of an iMac Pro.

1:42:47Well, at a glance, it looked like it, especially because you can see more of the foot now,

1:42:51but Marco had intelligently put the box, the cardboard box that slots in that spot.

1:42:57So I saw something that was dark that was the shape of an iMac that was in an iMac Pro box.

1:43:01It's clearly an iMac Pro.

1:43:03And I got to be honest with you, I was not happy about receiving this iMac Pro,

1:43:08because what the f*** am I supposed to do with an iMac Pro today?

1:43:11Are you happy you're getting a second 5K?

1:43:13Yes, I actually am! I genuinely am!

1:43:16Which is going to be great.

1:43:17Even after the start of recording today, when your 5K may have been to blame?

1:43:22That's true, actually! Now I have a redundant 5K! See, it's perfect!

1:43:26Flawless victory! Thanks, bud! I appreciate it.

1:43:29There's a house in our town that, like, every summer as decoration,

1:43:33they set up a big row of bobbleheads on their front retaining wall.

1:43:37That's going to be your desk. It's just going to be like this row of bobblehead monitors, just bobble-obble-obble.

1:43:42The series of 5Ks all shaking back and forth.

1:43:44Hand to God, I was trying to lift this thing out of the cardboard shell that rests in,

1:43:48and I went to lift, because it's sitting upright,

1:43:51and I went to lift up from the base of the screen,

1:43:55and that bastard just came flying up, just like that piece of crap LG stand loves to do.

1:44:01And I was pretty damn sure that was the LG 5K,

1:44:04but the moment that thing came flying almost out of the box when I lifted it up,

1:44:08oh, nope, that's 5K. I know that piece of crap stand anywhere.

1:44:11Thanks, bud. I feel much better now. And a couple of Tom Bins, too.

1:44:14You love me. You really love me.

1:44:16So, when you say Tom Bins, what are they?

1:44:18Like little pouches?

1:44:19Yeah, yeah, like little cable organizer pouches.

1:44:21Yeah, I had some. So, yeah, so I was, you know, cleaning out the house to sell it,

1:44:26and, you know, when you are getting ready to move as you're packing things,

1:44:31you're like, "Do I really want to pay to move this and then have this in the new place?"

1:44:36Like, do I like this thing enough that I want to actually move it?

1:44:40And that can make you make some real honest decisions.

1:44:44And it can be really difficult to make some of those decisions.

1:44:47This was not a difficult one. This one was like, as I'm, you know,

1:44:52this is what I was using last week when we recorded and I edited the show last week.

1:44:56And as we're doing all that, I'm like, "Do I want to move this thing that I hate?"

1:45:00I hate this monitor so much. So, instead, I had to pack it into something.

1:45:06So, instead of packing it into a box onto the box truck, I'm having to haul it back and forth

1:45:11and take up space and move it into the new place eventually and deal with it.

1:45:14I'm like, "You know what? I'm just going to pack this into whatever box I can find in my attic

1:45:19that it fits in and mail it to Virginia." So, there you go.

1:45:23Thanks, bud. So, now I'm happy to report, as of minutes ago, well, actually, as of days ago,

1:45:27I just didn't realize it, as of minutes ago, if I go to work on the porch,

1:45:31which I actually intended to do today because it was gorgeous here and then never got around to it,

1:45:35now I can do so by using an LG 5K, which is a much better experience than my LG 4K.

1:45:42So, this is delightful.

1:45:43It can be your outdoor-rated monitor.

1:45:45Yes, exactly right. Now it's my kink, too. Look at that.

1:45:48[Laughter]

1:45:49All right, Jon, since you apparently did a better job of investigating and interrogating your gift shipment,

1:45:55can you tell me what you learned about what Marco shipped you?

1:45:58I was going to say that if he actually had sent you the iMac Pro,

1:46:02I would say maybe he sent the wrong shipments to the wrong people, but now that he's here at the 5K,

1:46:06he sent the right thing because I sure as hell don't want that thing.

1:46:08[Laughter]

1:46:09It might have been a better troll to send it to you.

1:46:11Yeah. And I have to say, to start, Marco occasionally does this, and it's a very nice thing that he does.

1:46:15He's sending us things, and he makes it sound like, "Oh, I'm getting rid of my junk,"

1:46:18but honestly, these are things that have value, and it's nice that he takes the time

1:46:21and spends the money to ship them to his friends instead of just, like, free-cycling them

1:46:26or trying to sell them or whatever. So, I just want to say thank you to Marco.

1:46:29It's a very nice thing that you do when you get rid of your old tech stuff and you send it to us.

1:46:32We appreciate it.

1:46:33Yes, especially now that I know what's in there, and it's not just an iMac Pro

1:46:37that I was planning to just bring to Apple and get store credit for

1:46:41because I didn't know what the hell else to do with it.

1:46:43But no, I don't even want to think about how much it was to ship this damn thing to me, so thank you.

1:46:46It was like 50 bucks, and the best 50 bucks I ever spent, I think.

1:46:50[Laughter]

1:46:51It's a nice thing. But that said, the things that Marco sends are sometimes puzzling,

1:46:58and I think this is the biggest stumper that I've gotten ever.

1:47:02Oh, no.

1:47:03First, when Marco is in this mode and he's like, "I'm getting rid of my stuff,

1:47:07and I'm going to be nice and pay to ship it to my friends,"

1:47:10one thing that isn't in his mind is, "Let me find out how I can pack this safely."

1:47:14[Laughter]

1:47:15That's why he uses Kindles, for example, as packing material.

1:47:18"Oh, there's a gap between this tech product and the edge of the box.

1:47:21What if I just wedge three or four Kindles in there? There. Now it doesn't move around as much."

1:47:25That's about the extent of his packing abilities.

1:47:28So I have to say, the contents of this box, it was in a cardboard box,

1:47:32and there was no padding whatsoever on anything.

1:47:36It was like the thinnest piece of corrugated cardboard you can possibly imagine,

1:47:39and then stuff.

1:47:42And it was packed in to try to say, "Well, I think he was actually looking in the house.

1:47:45What kind of things do I have that I could wedge in here so things don't move around too much?"

1:47:48But that's, again, the extent of the packing.

1:47:50That is correct.

1:47:51Because it looks like I need something that's skinny, that will fit here, that will fill this space.

1:47:56So what he found, let's start.

1:47:59There is something that's a Blu-ray reader and writer.

1:48:02It's the Buffalo, that popular one that everyone was saying,

1:48:05"You should get this one if you want to rip and write Blu-ray optical discs."

1:48:10It's got a USB-connected, DC power connector, so the cables are in there and the things are there.

1:48:15I already have a Blu-ray reader. I think I have a Samsung, but I don't actually have a writer,

1:48:19so it's nice to have this, assuming the writer still works and it wasn't just packing material.

1:48:23So that one, it's like, "Okay, I don't think I really need this. I've never actually written a Blu-ray,

1:48:27but I do read them occasionally if my other one dies. Now I have a second one.

1:48:31It's small, so whatever, although it's like micro-USB if you remember what that connector looks like. It's gross."

1:48:36But anyway, so there's that.

1:48:38Then there is a plastic spindle, if you remember those from back in the day, of writeable Blu-ray discs.

1:48:44Hey, convenient. I still don't quite know why I would ever want to write anything to a Blu-ray disc,

1:48:49but if I did, I don't have to buy them.

1:48:51Oh, it's thrilling.

1:48:52Assuming the discs in there aren't all bad at this point.

1:48:55Oh, they won't be, because did you see what kind they are?

1:48:58No, I didn't. Let's see, what does it say?

1:49:00They're M-disks.

1:49:01Permanent storage solutions. Designed to last up to a thousand years.

1:49:06Oh, goodness.

1:49:07Up to, it says, though, so that could be like 30 seconds, right?

1:49:10Well, yeah, technically, yeah.

1:49:11Because 30 seconds is also up to a thousand years.

1:49:14So maybe I'll try that. Maybe I'll try writing some stuff.

1:49:17But that's not the main concept of this box. That was packing material to be wedged against the main contents of this box.

1:49:22Those were spacers.

1:49:23Yeah. Given that I've described these spacers, Casey, can you think of what might be similar dimensions to a spindle of optical discs and a Blu-ray writer?

1:49:31How many optical discs was it?

1:49:33It's like a stack. It's like an inch-high stack, and then the Blu-ray writer is like, you know, it's a square about the size of a Blu-ray.

1:49:39Oh, God, I don't know. Kindles? I have no idea. USB Pre?

1:49:44I would never get rid of one of those.

1:49:46Yeah, fair.

1:49:47What is in this box? I'll put the picture of this amazing packing jog on our Slack so you can look at it.

1:49:53It's two full-size home pods.

1:49:56[Laughter]

1:49:58Just look at this packing job, Casey. Look at the piece of cardboard between them. Who is he kidding with that piece of cardboard?

1:50:03This is my separator material, see? It's like padding. I'm amazed that these things came to me.

1:50:09I'm not going to say unscathed because the home pods are a little worse for wear, but honestly, I can't tell if that's damage incurred during shipment or damage incurred when they were at Marco's house. I can't tell.

1:50:19Oh, my God.

1:50:20So now here's the conundrum. All right, so I already have a full-size home pod. I got one when they were released, right? And it's in my living room doing its thing.

1:50:27I've got these two things. I'm like, "Oh, two home pods. Oh, well, first I thought, are these the ones that were flaking out at Marco's?" Yeah, they're kind of all flaking out.

1:50:34They all flake out, yeah.

1:50:35Yeah. I mean, so far mine hasn't been mostly, but I barely use it. But I'm like, "Okay, well, I'm sure I'll be able to find a place for these in the house."

1:50:41And since I've got them, I've been puzzling it over, and I cannot figure out what the hell I'm going to do with these things.

1:50:47[Laughter]

1:50:48Neither could I. That's why I said it to you.

1:50:50I went into my daughter's room the other day, and she was listening to music on her Google Home Mini, the really, really tiny Puck thing.

1:50:57And she's listening to music on it. I'm like, "Oh, this is it." I immediately go, "Boom."

1:51:01Perfect.

1:51:02Would you like me to replace that Google Home Mini with a home pod? It'll sound way better, and you'll have a home pod in your room. Isn't that cool?

1:51:08You could even have a stereo pair. And before I could get the words out of her mouth, she's like, "Nope, nope, nope, nope."

1:51:12Can you guess why she didn't want it?

1:51:14Because she likes the Google stuff? Because Siri sucks.

1:51:16Yeah, I'll go with Siri sucks.

1:51:18You're not thinking like a teenager. Too big! It's too big.

1:51:22The Google Home Mini is tiny and unobtrusive, and this thing is giant.

1:51:26Here's the thing. We talk about this with the iMac. Why does it have to be so thin? Who cares about that or whatever?

1:51:31Non-tech people, people who aren't into tech things as a hobby, do not want technology products to be dominant in their space.

1:51:41The home pod is too big for a teenage girl's bedroom if she doesn't care about home pods or any of that tech stuff or whatever.

1:51:50It takes up too much volume. It is too prominent. It's too ugly. It draws too much attention to itself.

1:51:56Whereas the tiny little puck of the Google Home Mini is practically buried under the other stuff that's there. It's so unobtrusive.

1:52:01And then, secondarily, she's not because she never wants to do anything that I tell her to do.

1:52:05Fair.

1:52:06At least she's self-aware, but it's totally true.

1:52:08I mean, she is a teenager. That's their job.

1:52:11So, I'm like, "What am I going to do with these?" I briefly thought about replacing the speakers that are on my desk for my Mac.

1:52:18No, you can't do that. It's too laggy.

1:52:20Exactly. I remember when we talked about it, I'm like, "No, I don't want to deal with the lag."

1:52:24Not only laggy, but do I want flakiness involving audio on my computer? No, I do not.

1:52:29My speakers are cheap, cruddy speakers, but they're connected directly with an analog audio cable to the back of my Mac, and there's no latency, and they work every single time.

1:52:38So, that's out.

1:52:40I'm looking around the house like, "Well, I've got one HomePod in here. If I put the other HomePod, could I get a stereo pair?"

1:52:46But I have surround speakers in that room. Or the fancy speakers that I bought see past episodes.

1:52:50There's not really any place for, like, to even just do stereo music.

1:52:54And my one big HomePod is buried in the corner behind everything as a punishment for being bad.

1:52:59It's got photos in front of it. We use it to play Christmas carols when we're decorating the tree.

1:53:05And when we're decorating the tree, it's actually relocated to the other side of the room, but that's it.

1:53:08But if I'm going to play stereo music, I have a much better full surround stereo speaker system that I can run.

1:53:15And I don't have a place to put two HomePods if I wanted to let them do their HomePod-y thing.

1:53:20I don't know where they would go. And plus, I have two extra ones, not just one.

1:53:24I thought about putting them as the TV speakers to the upstairs TV that was next to me.

1:53:27My wife said I barely use that TV and I don't want two giant HomePods in our bedroom.

1:53:31And honestly, there's not really a place for them there either.

1:53:34The kitchen... I mean, there's not a lot of place that we... No one really listens to music out loud in the house.

1:53:41So, I'm still puzzling over. Right now, they're just sitting on the desk behind me, looking very sad,

1:53:45but their cords are dangling off the end of the desk.

1:53:48And I don't know what I'm going to do with them, but I'll figure something out.

1:53:51I mean, worst case scenario, I could like... I should have offered them to my son, we just took them to college the other day.

1:53:56Do you want these for your dorm room? He almost certainly doesn't, but maybe he would say, "Sure, why not?" or something like that.

1:54:02But we have to... We're driving a mini-fridge out to him in a little bit because we're taking separate trips for various reasons.

1:54:09Oh, because your car isn't big enough to hold it all? Mr. Sedan is all you need?

1:54:12No, it is absolutely big enough to hold it all, but I didn't want to pack it all in.

1:54:15And also, you have to remember... So, when your kid goes to school close to where you live, the phenomenon of,

1:54:24"Oh, I don't have to make sure I have everything because I'll just remember what I don't have and ask for a second trip."

1:54:29That is absolutely in effect. By the time we got home, my text message is, "Oh, can you bring me this and this and this and this?"

1:54:36And we legit forgot at least one thing. We forgot his mattress topper thing, which we meant to bring with us because it was in the basement.

1:54:42So, we're going out there a second time no matter what.

1:54:44So, anyway, maybe these will come with me and I'll say, "Hey, you want these?" And he'll probably say no for the same variety of reasons.

1:54:49Anyway, I'm puzzling it over. But yeah, now I've got two sad-looking big HomePods and a bunch of optical discs.

1:54:57Fun.

1:54:58Yeah, at least they're not that big.

1:55:00I mean, they're the full-size ones.

1:55:02I mean, just like the box. I didn't get a gigantic box around if you're going to my house or whatever.

1:55:05And honestly, as soon as I saw the package coming, I kind of had a notion of what they might be, but the second I saw it sitting on my porch, I'm like, "Oh, it's HomePods."

1:55:13And I can just tell from the weight and the dimensionality, "I know what a big HomePod's like. That's what's in here."

1:55:20Yeah, because the big HomePods are very heavy. Like, they're very dense objects. Like, you pick one up, you're like, "Whoa!"

1:55:27So, do you have any suggestions for what I should do with these? Because it's really stumping me.

1:55:31Like, I'm not against them. They're good speakers. It's two good speakers and I can airplay to them. Like, they should have a function somewhere in my life.

1:55:38I would strongly advise not using them in a stereo pair, if that changes things.

1:55:44Why?

1:55:46Stereo pair HomePods are so buggy. Standalone HomePods are bad enough.

1:55:52Standalone HomePods are themselves quite buggy, but the bugginess goes up dramatically with stereo pairs, which is a shame because so does the sound quality.

1:56:00And so, it sucks that you can't really use them in the way they sound the best if you want them to be reliable at all.

1:56:06Oh, I thought of a use. I thought of a use. Go on, continue.

1:56:08I would say, like, anywhere that you might be able to put a single HomePod that maybe could use an improvement in volume or quality, put this there. Or mail them to Casey.

1:56:19No, I don't want them.

1:56:21I don't want to, you know, keep sending these, like, the sisterhood of the traveling HomePods.

1:56:26But now, here's the thought. So, when COVID started, we made my wife, like, a little home office downstairs. I think we talked about this. We got her a nice, fancy standing desk motorized thing.

1:56:37And her work gave her a bunch of, like, work at home equipment, including a gigantic, like, 32-inch Dell monitor or something or other. It's not retina, but it's huge.

1:56:45Anyway, she's got her office down there. And at some point, I got the Sonos Toblerone thing. What is that called? The Rome?

1:56:53Yeah, the Rome is the one that looks like a little Toblerone, right? The triangle?

1:56:57Yeah.

1:56:58Anyway, she's got that down there, but that's, you know, not a good speaker.

1:57:02No.

1:57:03So, that means she wanted that, but she said, you know, she had, like, a little mini Bluetooth speaker, and she saw that I had my Roam that I used in the shower. She's like, "Oh, I want one of those." So, I got her one.

1:57:11So, she does listen to music out loud. And so, I should bring both HomePods down there, because there's plenty of room down there. Like, it's just her office area. There's not a lot of junk down there.

1:57:19The only downside is, if they are flaky, I'm going to hear immediately, "Just give me back my Sonos thing." Because at least it plays music when I want it to play.

1:57:26It's worth a try.

1:57:28Yeah, I'm definitely going to try that. I mean, she knows I got them, and she didn't immediately say, "Can I have them in my office?" So, I think she might be kind of wary of them too, but she does listen to the program.

1:57:36So, I'll make a second attempt at pitching her on having these in her office. But she might also say, "They're kind of big," and, you know, whatever.

1:57:42I mean, they sound amazing for their size too. What's so frustrating to me about the HomePods is that I love the way they sound. They sound great.

1:57:51They're just really hard to use, because they lack any kind of input. And so, I can't bypass their flaky smarts, because you have to still use AirPlay to connect to them. So, that's no good.

1:58:06There's no line-in. There's no input method at all besides the flakiness. But once you can actually get them to connect and use them, they sound incredible.

1:58:16But that's just such a huge asterisk and such a huge downside for them. It makes it really hard to use them.

1:58:22You could have just gotten a bunch more Sonos stuff, and that would have been fine. I guess Marco isn't sending it to you for free though.

1:58:27Yeah, again, I didn't have a need for this. But I'm just going to put them down there and not tell her, and just get them set up somehow. And next time she goes down there, I'll start playing music with them. And she'll be like, "Whoa, where's this great music coming from?"

1:58:38That's optimistic.

1:58:40That's how we imagine it will work, but that's not how it's going to actually work.

1:58:43I think it'll be more like you'll be standing on the stairs trying to make your phone connect to them. And you'll be like, "Hold on, hold on. Just wait. Just hold on."

1:58:51"One more second. One more second."

1:58:52"Just let me get this going."

1:58:54More likely, she's going to go down there and she's going to say, "Why did you put your junk by my desk? Get that off of there."

1:58:59She's going to think I put them down there to store them, not that I'm trying to do a nice thing. And it's like, you can listen to music.

1:59:04That stuff that Marco sent you is your problem. Don't get it near my office.

1:59:08[beeping]

1:59:10[ Silence ]