00:00:06 ◼ ► I'm waking up early. Well, no, I'm waking up early to FaceTime with Jelly. Time changes
00:00:20 ◼ ► it would be lovely if we ended before 10.30. How early is early? 5.30 I'm going to be on
00:00:29 ◼ ► Yeah. I forgot that you had all that time with, what was that, East Asia? Is that right?
00:00:41 ◼ ► My reason for waking up early tomorrow morning is to meet the movers. I am finally, we're
00:01:31 ◼ ► of stuff, wow, what a process this has been. I no longer fault anyone for not wanting to
00:02:02 ◼ ► a house, and I don't necessarily mean a standalone dwelling, like a townhouse or like a place
00:02:12 ◼ ► how clean your house is, you have put, in your case, 13 years of miscellaneous detritus
00:02:23 ◼ ► problem and have movers collect all the detritus and all the other things and pack it up and
00:02:37 ◼ ► detritus. Oh, we've done all of these things. So we have culled, like we filled a whole
00:02:50 ◼ ► not taking, that the new buyers of the house, like they're taking some of our furniture
00:02:54 ◼ ► from us because we don't need it. And yet, like, you know, you're in a house for so long,
00:02:59 ◼ ► you're like, "Oh, I could, I'll hang a shelf here." And then that shelf collects stuff.
00:03:05 ◼ ► Now you have more stuff and it's just there forever until move-out day. So we have gotten
00:03:23 ◼ ► try to minimize stuff. But there's still so much stuff because behind and under and around
00:03:33 ◼ ► way, like the most shameful part of this is we probably need like 10% of this stuff. Like
00:03:51 ◼ ► are somewhere for, you know, 13 years, like, and especially like this is where, you know,
00:03:57 ◼ ► we've gone through a huge change in our life in this house. We first got a dog, then we
00:04:03 ◼ ► had a kid and the kid has grown up here. And so, and we've grown over the last, you know,
00:04:09 ◼ ► 13 years. Like we, so it's just been all these different phases of our lives and different
00:04:18 ◼ ► collecting all this stuff, going through different ages. Oh my God, it's so, so much. And I,
00:04:29 ◼ ► about Marie Kondo and it just, there's still so much stuff. I can't believe it. So anyway,
00:04:35 ◼ ► so we did everything. We got rid of stuff. We called stuff, we give stuff away. And for
00:04:50 ◼ ► I moved, we couldn't afford that kind of service. So this is, this is a new thing. So we'll
00:04:55 ◼ ► see how this goes. But also of course we care a lot about certain stuff. So a lot of our
00:05:13 ◼ ► stuff yourself. Oh yeah. My car is full again. For what it's worth. I think we've talked
00:05:21 ◼ ► many times about how my dad has a multi hundred album, a vinyl collection. And for years we
00:05:32 ◼ ► part of his role, we, we moved geographically, you know, many hours away from home every
00:05:43 ◼ ► it happened to be a Mayflower moving company or a Mayflower truck driver, owner, operator,
00:05:49 ◼ ► whatever that they explained, all right, we're very particular about this, that and the other
00:05:56 ◼ ► and so on and so forth. And the guy was really, really great about it. Right. Well then they
00:06:03 ◼ ► both of my younger brothers went through effectively their whole schooling. So they were there
00:06:07 ◼ ► for something like 20, 25 years. And when he came down to Virginia, I think they either
00:06:15 ◼ ► the company, but a very different, you know, operator go ahead and do the move. And among
00:06:20 ◼ ► the things they did, despite, I'm pretty sure having been instructed otherwise, is they
00:06:24 ◼ ► just randomly threw dad's multi-hundred album vinyl collection into random cardboard boxes.
00:06:28 ◼ ► So we get Virginia and Aaron and I start unloading it and realize, Oh my God, these have been
00:06:50 ◼ ► he was running around like a crazy person doing other things. And so that's what, that's
00:07:03 ◼ ► have been beyond had, had he had to deal with that. So yeah, I don't blame you for wanting
00:07:09 ◼ ► to pack your own stuff in, at least in for the important stuff. And I concur with John's
00:07:16 ◼ ► he's right. Yeah, but when we moved from Georgia up to Massachusetts, it was my wife's work
00:07:25 ◼ ► Like from experience they do, they did an okay job, but if you really care about certain
00:07:30 ◼ ► things of packing, can you guess which things I packed and moved myself? Granted, keep in
00:07:34 ◼ ► mind that I had a 1992 Honda Civic DX with one side mirror. That was my transport device
00:07:42 ◼ ► there and I had a wife and a dog. It's got to be your mat collection and maybe the dog.
00:07:52 ◼ ► You know me and my books because you cannot let, because they don't care about like the
00:08:08 ◼ ► with each other, especially dust jackets are easy to tear, corners are easy to pinch. It's
00:08:22 ◼ ► they're very heavy duty and a pack them in the car. There's no way any of my max, remember
00:08:26 ◼ ► this was the CRT. I had a 17 inch Apple, what's it called? Cinema display, the big 17 inch
00:08:31 ◼ ► CRT. The box that thing came in probably wouldn't have fit anywhere in my civic, except for
00:08:41 ◼ ► it makes perfect sense given your unique perspective on keeping your books extraordinarily pristine
00:08:48 ◼ ► and perfect. I'm not surprised now that you say that, that that's what you chose to do.
00:08:57 ◼ ► completely obscene. Well, good luck. And so the move is hypothetically just tomorrow or
00:09:03 ◼ ► is this a multi-day affair in theory? Well, in reality, this is a multi-month affair because
00:09:12 ◼ ► does not have a bathroom yet or interior doors or other requirements to make things livable.
00:09:30 ◼ ► storage unit and putting like, you know, stuff that, that couldn't tolerate like temperature
00:09:34 ◼ ► extremes in there. The rest of our stuff is going into the new houses garage for a little
00:10:26 ◼ ► haven't moved. Oh my God. Yeah. Don't. I mean leaving aside the whole house falling down
00:10:34 ◼ ► it stays up and you don't have to move. So John, I know you've discussed in, in, in past
00:10:41 ◼ ► podcasts, um, you've discussed like your plan with your family was basically like your deal
00:10:46 ◼ ► with your wife was that, um, at some point, uh, you retire and move to move back to long
00:10:52 ◼ ► Island. Is that, is that still the plan? Like do you, do you plan to actually do this? Cause
00:10:57 ◼ ► I'm telling you, I, I have trouble believing that you will do it now that I'm seeing what
00:11:00 ◼ ► it takes to do it. The good thing about that plan is it, uh, it presupposes retirement.
00:11:09 ◼ ► few months here. Yeah, true. And it will take several years just to drain the attic. And
00:11:16 ◼ ► you know, who knows if I die before then, then my kids have to deal with it in the grand
00:11:20 ◼ ► tradition of, of, uh, parents dying and leaving all that crap to their kids to deal with.
00:11:25 ◼ ► For what it's worth, you are not allowed to retire from this program. You can retire from
00:11:29 ◼ ► everything else. I would say you could retire from your blog, but you've never really been
00:11:36 ◼ ► is, that is part of the deal. We have some information about keyboard where Ezekiel Ellen
00:11:43 ◼ ► writes, note on keyboard where I experienced this too, especially in my 2014 and 2016 MacBook
00:11:52 ◼ ► on the butterfly keyboard. Oh, sorry. Trigger warning, Marco, not under warranty. They just
00:11:56 ◼ ► took it in the back and clicked on a new key cap in five minutes. Yeah. I wonder if that,
00:12:04 ◼ ► forth. I said, did they, was your thing under warranty? Cause under warranty. Yeah, sure.
00:12:13 ◼ ► that. Uh, we talked last week about open AI and as predicted, everything changed at least
00:12:19 ◼ ► six more times since the time we had recorded. And as we sit here right now and it seems
00:12:24 ◼ ► like the dust is settling. Uh, Sam Altman is back as open AIs chief executive. It seems
00:12:30 ◼ ► like basically the board has mostly gotten ousted and Sam is back in the King has returned.
00:12:40 ◼ ► open AIs chief executive. The company said successfully reversing his Alster by opening
00:12:44 ◼ ► AIs board last week after a campaign waged by his allies, employees and investors. Companies
00:12:50 ◼ ► board of directors will be overhauled jettisoning several members who had opposed Mr. Altman,
00:12:54 ◼ ► Adam D'Angelo, the chief executive of Quora will be the only holdover. Fun. Also, I think
00:13:00 ◼ ► John, you put in the show notes, uh, there's a pretty good overview article called five
00:13:04 ◼ ► days of chaos, how Sal Sam Altman returned to open AI and we aren't going to go through
00:13:08 ◼ ► the minutia about how this happened, but you can go ahead and read. That's a pretty quick
00:13:18 ◼ ► Neil Weinstock was one of a couple of people I think who wrote into remind us of something.
00:13:23 ◼ ► So Neil writes, anyone thinking of buying a new thermostat should check out their energy
00:13:33 ◼ ► you'll ever get on Amazon or Best Buy or whatever. Yes, that's the cheap nest for one stinking
00:13:41 ◼ ► power company, which is called dominion Virginia power and the ecobee smart thermostat premium.
00:13:47 ◼ ► They're selling for $190, which allegedly is down for two from 250 if you believe dominions
00:14:02 ◼ ► a, when I bought mine, I don't think I bought it through the power company, but I think
00:14:06 ◼ ► that Massachusetts has something where they'll give you a rebate. So you just got to send
00:14:13 ◼ ► to check though. Sometimes there are some strings attached. I'm like, a lot of utilities
00:14:16 ◼ ► will have these programs where somehow they are able to control your thermostat. If say
00:14:27 ◼ ► and they need to like raise you a few degrees. Yeah, they're going to turn off my AC. Yeah,
00:14:36 ◼ ► you are getting one of these discounted thermostats from your energy company, make sure either
00:14:41 ◼ ► there are no strings attached or that you are okay with the strings they are attaching.
00:14:44 ◼ ► Yep. Fair enough. Marco, a lot of people were either confused or grumpy about your ecobee
00:14:51 ◼ ► slander. I tells you slander. So do you want to talk to me about how many taps it takes
00:14:56 ◼ ► to change temperature please? Okay. So everyone, I was complaining last episode that my, my
00:15:02 ◼ ► echo be two episodes ago actually. Wasn't it? Ah, whenever. Yeah, I was basically complaining
00:15:06 ◼ ► how like I'm, I'm tired of how clunky it is and they redesigned the UI. I think earlier
00:15:36 ◼ ► an older generation of the hardware. And so when I bought, I bought them about three years
00:15:39 ◼ ► ago, they were transitioning between two models. I bought the best one that didn't have a microphone
00:15:45 ◼ ► and a voice assistant built into it because I thought that's kind of weird. I don't need
00:15:49 ◼ ► that in my thermostat. I think what that actually meant was it was older hardware too, like
00:15:53 ◼ ► older guts, maybe slower processing guts. Well, that was fine under these, the software that
00:15:58 ◼ ► came with them. Um, which it was never, look, the UI was never great and I had lots of problems
00:16:05 ◼ ► getting them set up with home kit. I had lots of problems overriding their dumb smart behaviors
00:16:13 ◼ ► override them and they would fight and home kit would say it was holding with them. Thermostat
00:16:17 ◼ ► wouldn't be holding or it set it to some ridiculous temperature that would make the thing go full
00:16:25 ◼ ► and a lot of weird set up stuff. They were, they were never great, but at least with the
00:16:29 ◼ ► original software, they were slightly usable and the software update that they did earlier
00:16:34 ◼ ► this year or whenever that was made them substantially slower and less responsive. So for me to change
00:16:39 ◼ ► my thermostat temperature actually requires walking up to it, tapping it to wake it up.
00:16:43 ◼ ► It doesn't wake up on its own for some reason. Tapping it to wake it up, waiting a second
00:16:56 ◼ ► not responsive either. So that's another second gone. Then tapping the actual temperature
00:17:01 ◼ ► up or down or whatever. So in practice I hardly ever do it and I will instead prefer to do
00:17:05 ◼ ► it via, you know, Siri or whatever through home kit. But still that's what I was annoyed
00:17:10 ◼ ► about. Apparently the newer model with the newer hardware is faster and more responsive
00:17:20 ◼ ► to it. So that saves them one of the taps and one of the animations and wake up delays.
00:17:31 ◼ ► you know what's even better? The Nest. I also, I was told by a bunch of people over many
00:17:36 ◼ ► months actually about this product called the Starling Home Hub and this is this little
00:17:40 ◼ ► like hundred dollar, basically what appears to be like a preconfigured raspberry pie kind
00:17:45 ◼ ► of box where it is, it's like a bridge product, a self contained automatic bridge thing that
00:17:50 ◼ ► bridges all Nest products into home kit. Nest cameras, Nest thermostats, whatever, it bridges
00:17:56 ◼ ► them into home kit and a bunch of people wrote in over the last few months to basically say,
00:18:05 ◼ ► perfectly. So I ordered one of those. I'm going to see how it goes. But everyone recommended
00:18:32 ◼ ► I don't, I don't want to be dealing with that stuff. And for a product that kind of just
00:18:36 ◼ ► is like a self contained version of that, that someone else manages and make sure works.
00:18:53 ◼ ► We were sponsored this week by hatch. Look, we all know you've got the best wifi on the
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00:19:48 ◼ ► color profiles that can go through for different styles of waking up. And then there's music
00:19:52 ◼ ► that goes along with it or sound effects that go along with it. So you can wake up or critically
00:19:56 ◼ ► fall asleep to your choice of different types of soundscapes, music, whether some of them
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00:21:11 ◼ ► Yeah. The fact that I meant to make this point later, but here we are. This is an anonymous
00:21:16 ◼ ► bit of feedback. Okay. Um, one of the things that you have to keep in mind when getting
00:21:23 ◼ ► an anonymous bit of feedback is usually these people aren't going to tell you anything secret,
00:21:28 ◼ ► but they know secret things and they're going to hint at them. And I will point out at various
00:21:41 ◼ ► All right. I'm excited. Anonymous rights for anyone interested in the topic. I would like
00:21:45 ◼ ► to highlight two excellent videos by Asian, Asianometry. I think I have that pronounced
00:21:50 ◼ ► right, which is a YouTube channel on packaging that should be very accessible to a tech enthusiast
00:21:54 ◼ ► audience. And I did watch two or both of these. Um, and yes, I think they were pretty accessible.
00:22:00 ◼ ► So there, I think a sum total of like 20 to 30 minutes altogether and they are worth checking
00:22:04 ◼ ► out when Gelsinger, which is the Intel head and Srouji, who is the chip head for Apple,
00:22:11 ◼ ► uh, talk about packaging. They are mostly talking about the increased level of integration
00:22:15 ◼ ► where components that used to sit on a shared PCB are now much closer together and integrated
00:22:32 ◼ ► to use AMD terminology that are mostly packaged side by side to packaging solutions where
00:22:36 ◼ ► chips are also layered on top of one another components that used to be in different locations
00:22:40 ◼ ► on the motherboard are put closer and closer together. I see a few main drivers that are
00:22:44 ◼ ► behind the increased importance of packaging. And so this is like topic number one, beating
00:22:54 ◼ ► single shot. Currently the radical measures 858 square millimeters. Are they right? Yes.
00:23:00 ◼ ► Some zions are close to 700 square millimeters. Nvidia's hopper chip has a die size of 818
00:23:06 ◼ ► square millimeters. The next generation of ASML lithography machines, high NA, UV, high
00:23:21 ◼ ► Even about 400 square millimeter chips, such as Apple's max series chips are close to the
00:23:26 ◼ ► radical limit of a high NA, UV tool and will be less economical as a result. Technically
00:23:32 ◼ ► you can expose two half radicals and get back to the old radical limit of 858 square millimeters,
00:23:37 ◼ ► but this will be significantly more expensive. Moreover, wafer output is decreased. I doubt
00:24:01 ◼ ► is a probably the biggest factor. Like Apple makes chips that are bigger than the radical
00:24:11 ◼ ► half as big. So I mean, even even right now, the M3 max could not be fabbed at five nanometer
00:24:22 ◼ ► only get that onto a single die because at three nanometer, the feature sizes are a little
00:24:26 ◼ ► bit smaller. Um, so if they're going to have the radical limit next generation, all sorts
00:24:36 ◼ ► half radical thing sounds expensive and Apple has in the past chosen, you know, and three
00:24:40 ◼ ► be a very expensive way to get out of a problem like this. But it seems like one of the reasons
00:24:45 ◼ ► that everyone has suddenly becoming super interested in chiplets and different packaging
00:24:54 ◼ ► yet that seems to be the case. So everyone's like, I guess we make smaller chips and stick
00:24:59 ◼ ► them together. And so that, you know, it'll be mentioned later with that. Well, what is
00:25:02 ◼ ► it? The, uh, UCI or whatever the, uh, interconnect standard for, uh, you know, putting a bunch
00:25:09 ◼ ► of, you know, UCI. Yeah, I was close to the UCI interconnect standard that we talked about
00:25:13 ◼ ► in the last episode, all the different manufacturers are getting on board so they can all agree
00:25:20 ◼ ► thing because nobody has some secret technology that can fab at two nanometers with the old
00:25:25 ◼ ► radical size. The next topic producing chiplets in optimized process nodes. There are process
00:25:30 ◼ ► nodes specific to DRAM memory, which are developed completely independently from process nodes
00:25:35 ◼ ► optimized for logic. They have completely different names such as microns one beta process
00:25:40 ◼ ► caches could be manufactured with cheaper process nodes since there's little or no gain
00:25:44 ◼ ► in terms of memory density by using a smaller node, but you can go even further cell radios
00:25:49 ◼ ► and other components with analog circuits need to be manufactured with yet other processes.
00:25:53 ◼ ► Yeah. That's what we talked about last week of, you know, some PR RAM doesn't benefit from
00:25:58 ◼ ► these processes, but of course if it's all in the same die and you're talking about your
00:26:04 ◼ ► whole SOC at three nanometers. So that means you're doing the RAM at three nanometers too.
00:26:12 ◼ ► But once you're breaking things up and if you want to have, you know, if you're breaking
00:26:20 ◼ ► different process that is optimized for memory that may even be better than trying to do
00:26:24 ◼ ► in three nanometer and it frees up space in your actual die. That's interesting. And then
00:26:33 ◼ ► buying Qualcomm cell radios recently. They didn't give up, but they delayed, they delayed
00:26:39 ◼ ► their triumph even further by saying by, you know, signing a new deal with Qualcomm and
00:26:44 ◼ ► says, yes, we'll buy your cell radios for another whatever years because Apple's attempt
00:26:49 ◼ ► to make a cell radio themselves using Intel's old cell radio business that they bought has
00:27:03 ◼ ► to do is just make a chip to replace the qua, the chip that they buy from Qualcomm, but
00:27:17 ◼ ► components. They don't want to be or need to be, and maybe some of them even can't even
00:27:22 ◼ ► be manufactured on these very tiny processes because they need to be a little radio chips.
00:27:38 ◼ ► Next topic, integrating components from different manufacturers, especially memory. While TSMC
00:27:43 ◼ ► might make Apple's SOCs, memory is supplied by someone else. The big drivers integration
00:27:56 ◼ ► could integrate a modern chiplet with other components into a single SOC. The UCI interconnect
00:28:00 ◼ ► standards should make that easier and cheaper. So when anonymous sources, hypothetically
00:28:14 ◼ ► know who that is. It might be Apple, it might be somebody else, it might be whatever, but
00:28:18 ◼ ► and they're probably using UCI-E to do that. And I think in the videos that Casey mentioned
00:28:24 ◼ ► earlier, one of them talks about how iPhones have been doing the thing where they, it's
00:28:28 ◼ ► not the same thing here because they're talking about things being kind of, you'll see in
00:28:37 ◼ ► if you take two chips and slap them on top of each other, that's what's in iPhones today
00:28:45 ◼ ► manufactured independently and shoved on top of each other. So there's kind of like a sandwich
00:28:48 ◼ ► of crap between them. Actually layering them without that middle stuff saves space because
00:28:52 ◼ ► you don't have to make two independent things that are sort of, you know, weather sealed.
00:28:58 ◼ ► a sandwich of crap. Yeah. But putting two, putting two chips on top of each other without
00:29:05 ◼ ► encasing each one individually saves you depth essentially. And that would be useful for
00:29:10 ◼ ► a phone. So whenever Apple can do that, I'm sure they will. Next topic, leveraging economies
00:29:15 ◼ ► of scale. Chips made up of chiplets are cheaper to produce for more reasons than just yield.
00:29:21 ◼ ► AMD can produce the exact same chiplets for a vast array of products, starting from its
00:29:29 ◼ ► and potentially the number of CPU chiplets. AMD can dynamically and flexibly change what
00:29:33 ◼ ► products it makes based on demand margin and other considerations, whether it makes more
00:29:36 ◼ ► server or consumer chips is up to them. Yeah, obviously Apple hasn't gone this route, but
00:29:42 ◼ ► they have tried to do things to save money, especially in the M one and M two generations,
00:29:46 ◼ ► making the M one and M two pro and max basically the same chip, but the pro had a bunch of
00:29:51 ◼ ► GPU cores chopped off. That's a way to save money in time because you don't have to design
00:29:56 ◼ ► a whole third chip this generation. They did design a whole third chip. The M three pro
00:30:00 ◼ ► is different than the M three, which is different than the M three max. And none of those things
00:30:33 ◼ ► one die, it has advantages. It's more expensive and it's more of a pain, but that is an advantage
00:30:52 ◼ ► new process nodes for a single chiplet also enable better integration of different chiplets
00:30:56 ◼ ► and vice versa. For example, finding another quote unquote boring application allows companies
00:31:00 ◼ ► to develop a tool or technology over the years until it matures and entirely new applications
00:31:04 ◼ ► suddenly become possible. Other times, the same processing step can be used in very different
00:31:19 ◼ ► product categories. When Apple's vision pros announced, I was fascinated by the displays.
00:31:24 ◼ ► A lot of this manufacturing of sticking stuff on top of stuff, using more technical terms,
00:31:29 ◼ ► you know, at the sort of dye level. The sensors for cameras, for example, use some of that
00:31:41 ◼ ► stuff takes up most of the area of the chip, even though there's also circuitry kind of
00:31:57 ◼ ► not sure what this person is getting at with the vision pro and the displays. I mean, we
00:32:04 ◼ ► in the thing, but I'm not sure how that connects to the things we just discussed, like chiplets
00:32:14 ◼ ► All right, now let's go into ECC corner. So the context here was, I think it was in Ask
00:32:19 ◼ ► ATP where we were asked, "Hey, how come there isn't ECC and Apple Silicon stuff?" And Grady
00:32:28 ◼ ► a computer was to add more DRAM chips to store all the data plus the parity information.
00:32:36 ◼ ► implemented by the chipset independent from any coordination with the memory outside of
00:32:46 ◼ ► but like when you would buy ECC memory for your Mac Pro or for your Xeon PC or any sort
00:32:57 ◼ ► had one more chip than the ones without ECC. And they were all just the same type of chips.
00:33:02 ◼ ► It wasn't like there was eight regular chips and then a parity chip. It was just nine chips.
00:33:09 ◼ ► and they were treated all the same. It was just a dumb bucket of memory. And it was the
00:33:14 ◼ ► circuitry that talked to them and filled them with stuff that used that extra space to store
00:33:19 ◼ ► parity information. But the interesting thing about it is obviously those DIMMs are more
00:33:31 ◼ ► chip on them than anything else. They were also bigger. They were also hotter. Everything
00:33:42 ◼ ► Grady continues, "Today, these two error paths are covered in different ways. Communication
00:33:45 ◼ ► errors are covered by some type of link CRC or ECC. Link coverage is optionally supported
00:33:58 ◼ ► and chipset support. In addition to taking a small amount of bandwidth, the chipset has
00:34:02 ◼ ► to implement a buffer to hold transactions until it is sure no DRAM chip will send back
00:34:05 ◼ ► a link error. The next generation of memory standards will likely require more link ECC
00:34:10 ◼ ► as the data rate keeps increasing. Starting around LPDDR3, the low-power memories began
00:34:22 ◼ ► Then different feedback from Joe Lyon continuing on that idea, "With array memory ECC, instead
00:34:45 ◼ ► directly into the DRAM chip and at the interface between the DRAM array, where the data is
00:35:08 ◼ ► memory ECC are two separate things here, because the chips themselves have some ECC circuitry
00:35:21 ◼ ► ECC-corrected data leaves the chip, it could still be damaged on its way to the thing that's
00:35:30 ◼ ► before, because before it was just a big dumb bucket of chips, and then the chipset would
00:35:33 ◼ ► fill them with data and parity data, and the memory controller would do all the ECC calculations
00:35:41 ◼ ► The M1 Pro and Beyond all use LPDDR5 or LP5. The M1 SoC used LPDDR4X or LP4. All LP4 and
00:35:59 ◼ ► majority of memory-related bit flips and memory corruption problems. As with any ECC, there
00:36:07 ◼ ► SoCs have the option to enable Link ECC to provide additional ECC protection for channel-based
00:36:13 ◼ ► corruption. From a system perspective, I think we have no way to know if the M series chips
00:36:20 ◼ ► the SoCs always use it, never use it, or sometimes use it. But all LP5 SoCs are capable of it.
00:36:25 ◼ ► The combination of on-die ECC and Link ECC is effectively equivalent to the traditional
00:36:31 ◼ ► system or module-level ECC that servers and high-end workstations use. So you could say
00:36:36 ◼ ► that basically all M series systems already have better ECC protection than any consumer-level
00:36:39 ◼ ► Intel Mac ever did, and potentially equivalent to the ECC protection on the high-end Xeon
00:36:50 ◼ ► Link ECC can be turned on and off in real time. That's so weird. We had a bunch of people
00:36:57 ◼ ► speculating, like, maybe the Apple only turns it on for the Pro Max, or maybe they only
00:37:00 ◼ ► turn it on when it's above a certain temperature. I have to think it's either on all the time
00:37:08 ◼ ► the CPU is really small in the M series processors. The RAM chips are right, you can see them
00:37:14 ◼ ► in the package. There's the SoC, and there's the RAM chips that are like millimeters away
00:37:33 ◼ ► is 2 millimeters in length and most ECC-based corruption errors happen inside the chip and
00:37:46 ◼ ► doing that or whatever, but maybe you're paying that price all the time. So if you're getting
00:37:49 ◼ ► it for free anyway, maybe they have it turned on. I guess we need someone in the know at
00:37:54 ◼ ► Apple to tell us whether Link ECC is enabled or not on the LP5-based Apple SoCs. But yeah,
00:38:01 ◼ ► this is a much more concrete explanation of the thing that I had heard way back when they
00:38:28 ◼ ► All right, breaking news from I think last week was that Apple announced that they will
00:38:32 ◼ ► support RCS, which is, what is it, Rich Communication Service, something like that? Which is sort
00:38:39 ◼ ► of kind of, and don't jump on me yet, but sort of kind of like iMessage but not strictly
00:38:56 ◼ ► receive them in good quality as well. I believe it has an affordance for typing indicators
00:39:01 ◼ ► and read receipts and things of that nature. So there's a lot of very cool and interesting
00:39:16 ◼ ► Additionally, we got confirmation that these messages would remain green, so it's not like
00:39:20 ◼ ► they're going to get a different color. They're certainly not going to be blue, but they will
00:39:25 ◼ ► remain green, so they are still second-class citizens. I mean, they're still not iMessages.
00:39:30 ◼ ► And it is worth noting that RCS does not have any official spec for end-to-end encryption,
00:39:42 ◼ ► We don't know what their change of pace is, but I'm sure it had nothing to do with increased
00:39:46 ◼ ► regulatory pressure basically everywhere. Surely that had nothing to do with this whatsoever.
00:39:52 ◼ ► I think Apple does such anyway, because here's the deal, especially with the way they're
00:39:55 ◼ ► handling it. iMessage is Apple's messaging service, but there is also the messaging service
00:40:05 ◼ ► Apple, then that. In the olden days it was SMS, because it was owned by the, it was part
00:40:14 ◼ ► predates the existence of these big smartphone platforms, so that was kind of like the messaging
00:40:24 ◼ ► secure in any way whatsoever. So Apple from day one, not day one on the iPhone I guess,
00:40:29 ◼ ► well I don't know, do you remember, when did iMessage come, was that before 2007 or after?
00:40:44 ◼ ► its better messaging service that uses encryption and Apple owns it and controls it and uses
00:40:54 ◼ ► the thing that everybody else uses, which back in the day was SMS. I don't think that's
00:40:59 ◼ ► ever going to go away, there's a huge explosion in things like iMessage, WhatsApp, Line, WeChat,
00:41:07 ◼ ► those are giant platforms, but still, they have all those combined, iMessage, maybe it's
00:41:12 ◼ ► because they're separate, iMessage, WhatsApp, Line, WeChat, all those things have not yet
00:41:27 ◼ ► be able to send you a quote unquote text message with SMS, at least in the US. Obviously in
00:41:33 ◼ ► other countries, things like WeChat are just so dominant that maybe they have essentially
00:41:37 ◼ ► eliminated SMS, but globally SMS has not been expunged, like smallpox, they're still, not
00:42:02 ◼ ► SMS is still a thing, but truly, if you're in the United States, the only common denominator
00:42:09 ◼ ► that you can pretty much guarantee that everyone can communicate with is SMS. We don't have
00:42:15 ◼ ► a de facto standard between Line or WeChat or WhatsApp, I know that each country or region
00:42:25 ◼ ► tends to kind of settle on one of these third party apps that's not by a platform vendor.
00:42:32 ◼ ► We're going to have really did that. And so the closest we have to everyone being on WhatsApp
00:42:45 ◼ ► life that have Android phones, that's going to be an SMS. And like John said, that technology
00:42:49 ◼ ► is ancient as crap, and it's creaky as crap, and it stinks for everyone involved. But that's
00:43:10 ◼ ► iMessage. And if you use WhatsApp, we'll send you no, they'll never do any of that they
00:43:23 ◼ ► don't give you an option to use iMessages, they don't give you an option to use WhatsApp,
00:43:32 ◼ ► like so many other things, you know, the metric system or whatever, it's like, well, it's
00:43:39 ◼ ► Google are here. So sorry, we apologize. But that's, that's the problem, right? So RCS,
00:43:44 ◼ ► right? RCS is not as terrible as SMS, it is not as good as any of the modern end to end
00:43:50 ◼ ► encrypted systems or whatever. But in theory, RCS is not controlled by any of the individual
00:43:55 ◼ ► platforms not controlled by Apple's not controlled by Google. It's kind of controlled by all
00:43:58 ◼ ► the carriers together, but they're so technically incompetent, we don't worry about them too
00:44:02 ◼ ► much. So if and when the lowest common denominator changes from SMS to RCS, of course, Apple
00:44:13 ◼ ► They're not going to say RCS is great, everyone should use it. No, but Apple hates SMS just
00:44:19 ◼ ► as much as all of us do. And I think one of their complaints about RCS is like you made
00:44:23 ◼ ► a new standard and you didn't deal with encryption. That was seems like a bad move. And I agree.
00:44:28 ◼ ► But it's like, look, if it's better than SMS, it was inevitable that Apple would support
00:44:33 ◼ ► it. It remains to be seen whether RCS will supplant SMS. Like I know that's kind of the
00:44:43 ◼ ► not owned by Apple or Google. So blah, blah, blah. Of course, Google has its own proprietary
00:44:47 ◼ ► encryption extension on top of RCS that Apple is not going to use because why would they
00:44:56 ◼ ► but surely everyone who's getting SMS messages will start getting through RCS. But if it's
00:45:11 ◼ ► they don't know it's actually arriving through RCS, the new lowest common denominator. So
00:45:21 ◼ ► that policy of supporting their thing, and also the lowest common denominator, they will
00:45:24 ◼ ► track the lowest common denominator they will. And it really should be greatest common denominator.
00:45:32 ◼ ► I'm sorry, people from other countries who don't like the math, but that's what we call
00:45:36 ◼ ► it here. Again, we use literatively, demean figuratively and vice versa. It's a mess. So
00:45:42 ◼ ► I think that this is a straightforward thing. Like, you know, unless Apple decides, you
00:45:47 ◼ ► know what, we're just going to go all iMessage and that's going to be that and maybe we'll
00:45:50 ◼ ► expand iMessage to other platforms. This is just going to be a fact of life. If and when
00:45:58 ◼ ► to, like not Google's proprietary extension, but a thing that's part of the standard for
00:46:04 ◼ ► encryption, I think Apple will support that too. Apple's job with iMessage is to continue
00:46:10 ◼ ► to make it better than the lowest common denominator. And I think they're currently succeeding. And
00:46:16 ◼ ► even if RCS gets standard end to end encryption, I think iMessage will still be slightly ahead
00:46:22 ◼ ► of it due to the integration, due to the probably additional security and so on and so forth.
00:46:31 ◼ ► about RCS other than trying to highlight how much better iMessage is, but I'm not surprised
00:46:36 ◼ ► to see it support it. And I'm not surprised to see them continue to be green bubbles because
00:46:43 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that this is, that this was sat on until very
00:46:51 ◼ ► large regulatory scrutiny came about. Like, look, Apple means well and they don't usually
00:46:57 ◼ ► hold stuff back artificially. You know, that's true in almost every way. But Apple knew and
00:47:04 ◼ ► knows as well as we do that those blue bubbles and the iMessage functionality is not only
00:47:11 ◼ ► very strong lock-in to iOS, but also it creates peer pressure. When you have that one friend
00:47:22 ◼ ► on Android, when it comes time for that person to replace that phone, you know their friends
00:47:27 ◼ ► are telling them, "Just get an iPhone, please." Like, for the love of God, stop green-ifying
00:47:34 ◼ ► And by the way, the other part of that dynamic is another reason Apple is doing this. All
00:47:38 ◼ ► right, so that's that dynamic we're all familiar with. Oh, you green-bulbified it, you fill
00:47:41 ◼ ► out that one because you don't have a blue. The flip side of that, which I'm sure Casey
00:47:51 ◼ ► And yes, so they get the pressure of like, "Oh, why don't you have an iPhone?" or whatever.
00:47:54 ◼ ► But then what happens is that thread becomes unreliable. People are missing messages, you
00:47:59 ◼ ► can't tell what's what, things are going out of order, you only see it on one device. And
00:48:03 ◼ ► when that happens, you've already been angered at the green-bulb person, like, "Oh, why don't
00:48:08 ◼ ► you have an iPhone? Be like us, get iPhones," or whatever, right? That's already happened.
00:48:11 ◼ ► Now what happens is, why don't we use something other than iMessage? Because it's clear that
00:48:27 ◼ ► why don't we go to WhatsApp or whatever, right? Because WhatsApp is available on Android,
00:48:33 ◼ ► WhatsApp is available on the Mac, and oh, now the thread doesn't lose messages anymore.
00:48:46 ◼ ► and maybe they'll actually work better." That's the promise. I don't know if that's actually
00:48:49 ◼ ► going to happen, but that is, I think, becoming the dominant factor. And I see a lot of my,
00:49:04 ◼ ► I mean, I'm sure that plays a role, no question. But I think the regulatory pressure here played
00:49:14 ◼ ► here, strategy-wise, there's, you know, places like the EU are looking at iMessage as this
00:49:20 ◼ ► major, like, you know, abusive monopoly kind of lock-in thing and a couple angles about
00:49:29 ◼ ► say iMessage isn't its own separate network, but it's part of SMS or part of messaging,
00:49:35 ◼ ► whatever. So that might be part of their argument. But I think a bigger thing is there is this
00:49:41 ◼ ► perception, which I think is backed by, you know, pretty solid evidence, that the iPhone
00:49:47 ◼ ► makes SMS or like makes messages from other platforms worse. It makes the experience worse.
00:49:53 ◼ ► And look, if everyone else, if all of Android supports RCS features and Apple's sitting
00:50:03 ◼ ► Apple is maybe quote, artificially holding back non-iPhone chat capabilities to make them
00:50:10 ◼ ► look worse and to make people, you know, want to buy iPhones more or whatever. And if Apple
00:50:20 ◼ ► to support this standard and we're still going to color them green so that that way, you
00:50:24 ◼ ► know, they can say, look, people want to know whether they're secure or not, or whether
00:50:31 ◼ ► the standard of the industry cross-platform standard features. We will support those just
00:50:38 ◼ ► fine. We're so therefore we are not holding anything back. We are not artificially penalizing
00:50:43 ◼ ► Android people. We're going to support this industry standard just fine. And also if the
00:50:48 ◼ ► message is blue, you know, that's more secure. Like I think that's going to be more of their
00:50:51 ◼ ► argument here. I don't think they really care that much about having the experience actually
00:50:57 ◼ ► be nicer for Android people in this particular case, because this is a very powerful thing
00:51:01 ◼ ► that sells iPhones. So I think ultimately this is a hundred percent regulatory defense.
00:51:11 ◼ ► of this stuff because I know it's usually not true in this particular case, the strategic
00:51:16 ◼ ► and lock-in value of the iMessage is so massive to Apple's most profitable and most important
00:51:22 ◼ ► platform product. It would be, I think foolish to rule it out as a reason. I think this is
00:51:31 ◼ ► I think it's more like USB-C where Apple is going to do it anyway. It's just a question
00:51:40 ◼ ► but you know, USB-C they did it a year before they had to RCS. I'm not sure how much this
00:51:44 ◼ ► is actually going to defend them. I mean, it looks good and it's a little bit of cover,
00:51:47 ◼ ► but if the complaint is that you're you, the platform owns a messaging service that they
00:51:56 ◼ ► you could say, Oh, we'll see, look, we upgraded from SMS. So now it's not as bad, but yeah,
00:52:00 ◼ ► the interoperability angle though is actually a problem for Apple's customers. And if they're
00:52:09 ◼ ► a quote unquote, heterogeneous group conversation, meaning people from Apple and non Apple platforms,
00:52:19 ◼ ► people want not want to be on iMessage because very few people can sort of purify their life
00:52:25 ◼ ► by ensuring that everybody they communicate with is going to have an iPhone. I certainly
00:52:40 ◼ ► know, anybody like people coming to my house to do work, are they going to have blue bubbles
00:52:53 ◼ ► be blue. So what actually happens is you buy an iPhone, you want to use iMessage, you find
00:52:57 ◼ ► yourself in heterogeneous conversations and they're just not reliable. And that's frustrating
00:53:01 ◼ ► and it makes you think your phone is broken. And in this country, at least you can't say
00:53:05 ◼ ► to the whole parent teacher group, Hey everybody, let's get it on WhatsApp. That does not work.
00:53:10 ◼ ► No one knows what that is or wants to do it. Or they just say, I just want to use texts.
00:53:15 ◼ ► And so you're the problem now you're the blue bubble person is the problem because it's
00:53:19 ◼ ► working fine on my phone. I don't see what your problem is. I'm not missing any messages
00:53:27 ◼ ► part of their motivation because they actually have a problem. And if adopting RCS can make
00:53:41 ◼ ► All right. And then another quick piece of, uh, I guess this could have been follow-up,
00:53:44 ◼ ► but we'll treat it as a topic. Uh, Apple has kicked the can with regard to the iPhone 14
00:53:55 ◼ ► would get free satellite nine one one or nine nine nine or whatever your particular equivalent
00:54:17 ◼ ► Yeah, this, this is so, so basically to summarize, since launching emergency SOS via satellite,
00:54:23 ◼ ► um, Apple has not yet announced what the plan will be when your free coverage period of
00:54:30 ◼ ► that runs out. So, because so far no products have, have lapsed into that, you know, out
00:54:35 ◼ ► of the free state yet. And looking at this, like, can you imagine what a, just a PR and
00:54:43 ◼ ► just a human nightmare it would be if someone dies and could have been saved by this feature,
00:54:56 ◼ ► except just make the feature free for the lifetime of these phones. Like, and ultimately
00:55:07 ◼ ► they set a time bound in part because they probably didn't really know what their usage
00:55:18 ◼ ► I'm sure they had some kind of estimates, but until you get this out into lots of people's
00:55:22 ◼ ► phones in the real world, it's hard to really know. Well now they know they have a year
00:55:26 ◼ ► of usage from the iPhone 14 line having it. Now the iPhone 15s of course also have like,
00:55:31 ◼ ► by now I think they have a much better idea of what this feature is actually costing them
00:55:36 ◼ ► in practice. And that allows them to do two things. You know, number one, it allows them
00:55:40 ◼ ► probably to go to the satellite vendor that they're doing this through and maybe negotiate
00:55:44 ◼ ► better rates over time because now they have more predictable usage. And then number two,
00:56:01 ◼ ► other outcome other than they just keep kicking the can down the road until they finally just
00:56:05 ◼ ► say, all right, you know what, it's just free forever for these phones. Because I don't
00:56:15 ◼ ► would need to limit it too much because the feature itself, it's already limited in terms
00:56:19 ◼ ► of like you can't do a lot of like chatting or data usage over the satellite. Like it's
00:56:24 ◼ ► engineered to do extremely low data usage, kind of preset things and, and not cost that
00:56:42 ◼ ► the alternative of having to like asking people to pay for this or only including it in certain,
00:56:49 ◼ ► you know, iCloud plus plans or whatever, if they ask people to pay for it, they know most
00:56:59 ◼ ► heard Tim cook in particular has, has apparently multiple occasions use the phrase Apple products
00:57:07 ◼ ► don't kill people. Like really like he believes very firmly Apple products don't kill people
00:57:13 ◼ ► in parentheses directly. Right now. And, and that, by the way, like, and I heard, I heard
00:57:25 ◼ ► a whole, the car project. I think if it wasn't dead already, I think their, their carbon
00:57:31 ◼ ► neutral plans killed it because there is you talk about like, how would you make that product
00:57:37 ◼ ► carbon neutral beginning to end, including the energy it uses during its lifetime. Good
00:57:42 ◼ ► luck. So anyway, I think that project is well and truly dead at this point. But anyway,
00:57:48 ◼ ► going back to the, the, the satellite SOS thing, I think Apple loves that feature. They,
00:58:01 ◼ ► It like they, you see these news stories pop up all the time now from, from some, you know,
00:58:11 ◼ ► in an area where they wouldn't have had any or many other options. So that's a, that is
00:58:16 ◼ ► a great thing for the world. It's a great story for Apple. It's a great thing that sells
00:58:20 ◼ ► iPhones and it really is helping people greatly and possibly and in many cases saving people's
00:58:26 ◼ ► lives. And, and I think for, for the probably very minimal cost it is costing Apple in satellite
00:58:33 ◼ ► usage relative to the, you know, the overall margin on these phones and everything, I think
00:58:37 ◼ ► they will probably conclude whenever the time comes that they have to make a firm decision,
00:58:42 ◼ ► they will probably conclude it is not worth risking losing people's lives who could have
00:58:49 ◼ ► had this feature, who have the hardware to do it and just didn't buy the $5 a month extra
00:59:01 ◼ ► charge for per usage retroactively, right? So no one signs up for anything. No one pays
00:59:08 ◼ ► bucks. And once you've been saved from the wilderness, you'll pay that $10 happily. It's
00:59:26 ◼ ► iPhone and they don't even have an Apple ID to then just do it for free, right? But in,
00:59:29 ◼ ► in the common case where someone has an Apple ID, Apple knows who they are. Apple probably
00:59:33 ◼ ► already has their credit card, charge them retroactively, you know, and, and charge them
00:59:41 ◼ ► it. If you're trapped in the wilderness, you're going to use it. You're not going to care
00:59:44 ◼ ► that you're going to get charged two bucks. Like you won't buy that extra iCloud space,
00:59:54 ◼ ► charge or whatever doing for free would be great. But I mean, once you start going that
01:00:02 ◼ ► unlimited cloud storage with each phone that you bought, because that would encourage people
01:00:04 ◼ ► to get new phones. Then people would actually save their photos. I just had this conversation
01:00:16 ◼ ► So all her photos are only on her computer. What is she Casey? Yeah. Oh, I have an enable
01:00:21 ◼ ► now. You're just doesn't have a cloud back person that or anything. Why? Well, who pays
01:00:32 ◼ ► willing to pay, but she's doesn't quite know how to do it. But anyway, yeah, people don't
01:00:36 ◼ ► want pay to save their photos. And when the photos are gone, if you told them, Hey, retroactively,
01:00:43 ◼ ► all your photos back, they throw that money at you, right? Cause then their family photos
01:00:50 ◼ ► on a mountain, but it would be nice if Apple built into the cost of the phone enough money
01:00:55 ◼ ► to give Apple its margins for two years worth of iCloud storage. But of course, if you look
01:01:02 ◼ ► tiny number of users that actually pay for it. Uh, because you know, what does like you
01:01:07 ◼ ► buy a 256 gig phone? What does 256 gigs of, uh, of iCloud storage actually cost you per
01:01:18 ◼ ► probably won't get to this week, uh, about, uh, when you pay more for a product, uh, like
01:01:24 ◼ ► how do you deliver extra value for the extra money? And lots of historically lots of expensive
01:01:32 ◼ ► less money. Whether it's like buying clothes from an expensive store where you get easy
01:01:36 ◼ ► hassle-free returns or back in the day, you'd buy very expensive, you know, luggage and
01:01:46 ◼ ► get things for the money, not proportional. You'd pay two times as much and, but it would
01:01:51 ◼ ► be 20% better or you'd pay 17 times as much and it would be 15% better, but it would actually
01:01:56 ◼ ► be better. And it'd be better in ways that, that are perceived, uh, to be more valuable
01:02:13 ◼ ► they don't sell snow tires, but you just take the return anyway, because that's how you
01:02:22 ◼ ► also sell very expensive phones. So it'd be nice if paying that extra money got you some
01:02:27 ◼ ► stuff that people consider valuable and free SOS satellite service for every iPhone customer
01:02:38 ◼ ► that you bought for the life of that phone. And if you only did it for two years instead
01:02:42 ◼ ► of for life of the phone, it might encourage people to upgrade as well. But Apple is not
01:02:50 ◼ ► SOS thing before I forget. And before people write in about it, uh, number one, uh, there
01:02:54 ◼ ► are a lot of, um, cellular Apple devices. I don't know if iPads do it, but I know phones
01:03:00 ◼ ► do it and I think watches might do it too. Where, um, even if you don't have a cellular
01:03:05 ◼ ► plan activated, you can place free emergency nine one one calls from those devices at any
01:03:11 ◼ ► time. Yeah, that's a legal requirement in some places too. I think I would, yeah, probably.
01:03:15 ◼ ► And I'm sure there's some deal with the carriers where like, you know, maybe Apple doesn't
01:03:27 ◼ ► it works differently with the satellite providers and legality and everything, but that is something
01:03:30 ◼ ► to think about as like a possible parallel or precedent to set here. Um, and then secondly,
01:03:40 ◼ ► looking to expand the satellite SOS feature into what sounded like from the rumor, basically
01:03:53 ◼ ► sending kind of canned messages or, or locations. I wonder if maybe the plan here and maybe
01:03:58 ◼ ► they just haven't finished it yet, but maybe the plan here is to launch a paid satellite
01:04:24 ◼ ► and that might be useful for people who frequently go outside of cell phone coverage areas. Um,
01:04:34 ◼ ► and it will be partly funded by this premium thing that we're going to launch as, as an
01:04:48 ◼ ► Apple a lot, which then Apple can charge their customers even more because so few on the
01:04:51 ◼ ► grand scheme of things, percentage wise, iPhone customers need to be able to text them edges
01:04:56 ◼ ► from SOS, but the ones that do, you can probably charge them a lot cause they're, you know,
01:05:03 ◼ ► tiny percentage of iPhone users, but a tiny, tiny percentage of iPhone users is a large
01:05:10 ◼ ► Yeah. And like there already are like, I know Garmin sells these products called inreach
01:05:15 ◼ ► satellite communicators that a lot of hikers and stuff use. And they're, they're literally
01:05:19 ◼ ► just like little tiny smartphone like things that just have satellite mode and built into
01:05:33 ◼ ► but I have like the bottom end plan that allows almost nothing there. This is a whole market
01:05:37 ◼ ► of these satellite communicator things that allow text messaging at certain plan levels
01:05:42 ◼ ► and stuff like that. And so there is clearly a market. It wouldn't surprise me to see Apple
01:05:47 ◼ ► get into this market with their new SOS feature and to just have it be like a five or $10
01:05:52 ◼ ► a month add on or part of Apple one premium plus whatever. You know, I think that's probably
01:05:58 ◼ ► where this is going to head, but I still bet that the, that the SOS feature set we have
01:06:13 ◼ ► use as little bandwidth as possible, just basically to be as cheap as possible essentially
01:06:17 ◼ ► and to work in more places, you know, cause like a lot of times, like, you know, if you
01:06:24 ◼ ► a, in a, you know, Canyon or something like if you don't have a great view of the satellite,
01:06:30 ◼ ► you might, it might take you a very long time to reliably transmit enough bits to even communicate
01:06:36 ◼ ► what you need to communicate. So they, the protocol that it sends the satellites is very
01:06:40 ◼ ► simplified and uses very few bits of actual data transfer because it has to get through
01:06:46 ◼ ► some pretty severe, not only very long distance, but also like some severe conditions and like
01:06:51 ◼ ► very low signal or high noise ratios and stuff. It's made to be extremely resilient and simple.
01:06:57 ◼ ► So I need to use it. I'm picking my daughter from her school because her high school of
01:07:01 ◼ ► course is in a cell phone dead zone. So when you arrive and you want to text your child
01:07:12 ◼ ► and just waiting to see that word delivered and they're trying to text you. And of course
01:07:23 ◼ ► center of the school's campus. I don't know, but by the time that happens, my kids will
01:07:27 ◼ ► have all graduated. But yeah, maybe I should try satellite next time and help them in a
01:07:30 ◼ ► canyon slash outside the high school. It's like when people used to like, like bit pack
01:07:36 ◼ ► a their, their messages to their parents when you're calling on the pay phone from school,
01:07:41 ◼ ► come pick me up into the like, uh, the collect calling name field. Will you accept the charges
01:07:49 ◼ ► that not only could I not text message, my parents went to get me, I would just sit outside
01:07:53 ◼ ► of the high school and just wait and assume at some point a parent will realize I'm not
01:07:59 ◼ ► was just there for hours. Other people are getting picked up by their parents. The late
01:08:03 ◼ ► bus is long since gone. I missed that one. I'm just going to be at the school. It's getting
01:08:31 ◼ ► five Thunderbolt five will deliver 80 gigabits per second of bi-directional bandwidth with
01:08:40 ◼ ► display experience built on industry standards, including USB for version two because how
01:09:08 ◼ ► stuff like they have, they have gen numbers, they have version numbers with dots in them.
01:09:13 ◼ ► They have two X two. Now they've got V, but then they took the number and shoved it against
01:09:22 ◼ ► at the beginning, they had a brainstorm meeting and they say, here's all the ways we can think
01:09:25 ◼ ► of diversion something. And they're just going down to listen, checking them off. Indeed.
01:09:29 ◼ ► Well anyways, uh, built an industry standards, including USB for space V two Thunderbolt
01:09:34 ◼ ► five will be broadly compatible with previous versions of Thunderbolt and USB. Why do we
01:09:38 ◼ ► care, John? Why do we care? Well, first thing I think is fun about this is the bandwidth
01:09:43 ◼ ► boost thing. So it's 80 gigabits per second, which is twice as fast as our current Thunderbolt
01:09:47 ◼ ► four. So yay, because Thunderbolt four didn't get any faster than three. It just like up
01:10:05 ◼ ► them all the time? Does it come from a turbo button that you have to push to make it go
01:10:08 ◼ ► faster? No, it comes from NAS. So the reason they have it is to basically to support big
01:10:21 ◼ ► display mode and we trust that you won't have really long display cables. Like I'm not entirely
01:10:32 ◼ ► frame rate displays, but not support it for data, but whatever. That's what they're doing.
01:10:36 ◼ ► It's part of the spec. And I'm glad because if you look at, you know, 40 gigabits is not
01:10:45 ◼ ► you know what I mean? Like, so we need a new standard, just the new display port standards
01:10:53 ◼ ► no, no, that's not just going to 80 because if I do the math on 80, what if you have an
01:11:00 ◼ ► And of course you have display stream compression and all that other stuff. So I give this a
01:11:09 ◼ ► the one small thing that I want to say about this other than yay, I can't wait for Thunderbolt
01:11:20 ◼ ► the stupid versioning number things, we always complain about the same thing, which continues
01:11:23 ◼ ► to be an issue because this one, as they say, will be quote unquote broadly compatible with
01:11:33 ◼ ► good connector, but our complaint is always, I have a bunch of cables that have that connector
01:11:38 ◼ ► on them and I can't tell which ones support which things just power is this Thunderbolt
01:11:52 ◼ ► like with Thunderbolt five is a time to at least recognize the thing that we never talk
01:11:59 ◼ ► about, but still exists, which is the advantage of doing this. And I thought of it related
01:12:04 ◼ ► to when we were talking about dynamic caching, where they're like, Oh, we used to have three
01:12:07 ◼ ► buckets of memory in the GPU. And if you didn't use them efficiently, one of the buckets would
01:12:15 ◼ ► on the side of laptops or on the back of desktop computers, but laptops space is tighter. You
01:12:25 ◼ ► purpose. Here's the connectors for that purpose. And here are the ones for this purpose. And
01:12:34 ◼ ► this bucket, one from this one and one from this one, you're like, Oh, I really need three
01:12:49 ◼ ► support all support Thunderbolt or whatever lets you avoid having to do the other analogy
01:13:02 ◼ ► uniform. And again, on the good fancy computers, they're all Thunderbolt, your cables, you've
01:13:08 ◼ ► still got that problem, but it solves a real problem on the side of laptops is we don't
01:13:24 ◼ ► what was the other one I just said, like everything that you can do, it's all the same shaped hole
01:13:30 ◼ ► and all the same capabilities again on the high end computers, even on the low end ones,
01:13:39 ◼ ► when Apple would come up with a new laptop and you'd have to get all new cables and all
01:13:44 ◼ ► new devices sometimes because this one comes with fire 800 and all your things are fire
01:13:47 ◼ ► 400 and you can try to get a dongle. And it was just, we don't have that problem anymore.
01:13:53 ◼ ► When they go from Thunderbolt three to Thunderbolt four to Thunderbolt five, you won't get to
01:13:57 ◼ ► get a new Thunderbolt drive. You won't need to hopefully get a new monitor that, you know,
01:14:04 ◼ ► hole. We still just have the problem of, you know, you can't tell what the hell the wire
01:14:09 ◼ ► support or what the devices support, but I think on the whole, I prefer this world where
01:14:18 ◼ ► world where all the wires were easily distinguishable, but every time we got a new laptop, we had
01:14:28 ◼ ► That's not my point. My point is not a mess. My point is we should appreciate, we should
01:14:39 ◼ ► was worse than the old days. It is silly that that is still a problem, but we should appreciate
01:14:45 ◼ ► the important advantage that Thunderbolt and USB-C give us, especially now that our phones
01:15:16 ◼ ► not individual lines within the cable are connected or not. Because if you have a USB-C
01:15:20 ◼ ► shaped cable, you can have like USB-2 compatibility, USB-3 compatibility, Thunderbolt compatibility.
01:15:28 ◼ ► And this at least gives you some notion as to what that cable can handle, but it's just
01:15:37 ◼ ► it's better to have one connector generally, but it's bananas that we have to go through
01:15:42 ◼ ► all this to figure out what the hell this, this connector or this cable can, can handle.
01:15:52 ◼ ► be if they had, as part of the standard come out with a tasteful, this is the problem with
01:15:57 ◼ ► Apple with why Apple reject us, a tasteful standardized labeling policy for connectors.
01:16:11 ◼ ► Apple would hate it and they would put it in really light gray ink on their white connectors
01:16:18 ◼ ► Apple, come up with some kind of thing, preferably some kind of like inset or raised thing that
01:16:22 ◼ ► you could feel like it's a hard design problem. I admit, cause these connectors are small.
01:16:40 ◼ ► or the ones that have the little LCD displays in them, which is a little bit over the top
01:16:43 ◼ ► or whatever, but like that's where the solution to this problem lies. It's not like let's
01:16:47 ◼ ► make all the connectors different again. It's let's solve the actual problem is I can't
01:17:00 ◼ ► does something different. There's no standard and if there was a standard, it would be solidly
01:17:05 ◼ ► Pretty much worth. I, I, first of all, I would love if there was like a, not a Kickstarter,
01:17:12 ◼ ► but like a just a regular product you could buy that, that was a cable tester that would,
01:17:18 ◼ ► that would actually tell you not only like physically what lines are connected, but like
01:17:22 ◼ ► tell me what consumer facing standards this cable supports. So like I don't need to know
01:17:27 ◼ ► if it's connected to the, to the g positive three line. Like just tell me like, does this
01:17:38 ◼ ► that and, and one thing I've seen from a couple of people have suggested on mastodon, I'm
01:17:43 ◼ ► sorry if I forget who, so sorry. But a couple of people I've seen suggest that like, wouldn't
01:17:48 ◼ ► it be cool if you plugged in the two ends of a cable to two usbc ports on your Mac book
01:17:56 ◼ ► and Apple told you what the cable supported. Oh, that would be amazing. Like that would
01:18:00 ◼ ► be so cool. They could just test it to run the data though. I think I also saw mastodon
01:18:04 ◼ ► one company is doing like, look, we know people don't know the names of the standards, so
01:18:07 ◼ ► they just put a gigabits rating on them even better. Yeah. I mean, it's hard again, cause
01:18:11 ◼ ► the print, the printing has to be small and embossed and you know, like it's, it's a little
01:18:15 ◼ ► bit tricky and standardization would help. But if you're, if you're interested, you can
01:18:18 ◼ ► find cables that are labeled in a sane way. We don't, we all own ones that aren't. I mean,
01:18:23 ◼ ► look at the, look at the, the image in this diagram or in the show notes, it's from like
01:18:35 ◼ ► the thunderbolt for one. That's the otherwise are identical, but Hey, a number four and
01:18:43 ◼ ► and the five of them or the Thunderbolt. One thing also like I, I, you know, as you know,
01:18:54 ◼ ► broken area of this world is much more in the USB neighborhood than in the Thunderbolt neighborhood.
01:19:07 ◼ ► to Casey with the apple press event that had the, uh, the new, new at the time, Mac book
01:19:11 ◼ ► air, a retina map of air and the 2018 11 inch and new 12.9 iPad pros. Um, at that event,
01:19:21 ◼ ► we had a briefing afterwards and um, I don't, I probably shouldn't say who, but somebody
01:19:27 ◼ ► at apple, um, who, who was fairly high up. I was complaining about how, look, you, you're
01:19:39 ◼ ► USB-C, you know, dongles and hubs and everything is terrible. Again, this was 2018 like you
01:19:50 ◼ ► has stuck with me. Um, they said, you know, really the, the world of Thunderbolt stuff,
01:20:01 ◼ ► number of tests from Intel and certification and everything like the, the Thunderbolt products
01:20:06 ◼ ► that actually bear the logo and, and, and are tested are held to a much higher standard
01:20:24 ◼ ► things like, you know, the power situation, like they usually require these giant external
01:20:28 ◼ ► power bricks. Just Thunderbolt can supply a lot of power to its ports. Um, so, you know,
01:20:32 ◼ ► Thunderbolt hubs and Thunderbolt equipment, there's less of it and it's more expensive,
01:20:36 ◼ ► but it usually tends to be really rock solid. Like this is what this person said in 2018.
01:20:42 ◼ ► And I've, I've remember that ever since. And whenever there was a Thunderbolt version of
01:20:46 ◼ ► something I'm looking at, I choose that. And that is not very often. Uh, but, but whenever
01:20:50 ◼ ► there is one, I choose that. And sure enough, they've been right. Like the, the USB hubs
01:20:59 ◼ ► of crap. The Thunderbolt things have all been solid. Uh, so it is unfortunate that like
01:21:05 ◼ ► this is the more technically complex protocol that therefore brings a lot more cost and
01:21:10 ◼ ► limitations to it and everything. But the world of USB-C shaped equipment is much, much
01:21:17 ◼ ► better on the Thunderbolt side than the USB side. So if you need something to be really
01:21:22 ◼ ► reliable and if there's a Thunderbolt option and if you can afford it, that it really is
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01:23:37 ◼ ► this, it is the end of cyber Monday and still can't believe people use that term. Gary Owen
01:23:43 ◼ ► wants to know now that we are seeing the new crop of TVs, is this the year I should splurge
01:23:53 ◼ ► probably handle this. So what's, what's the situation? What is the landscape these days?
01:23:58 ◼ ► First I want to apologize to Gary. His question is from January, 2023. Sometimes you don't
01:24:22 ◼ ► to get rid of your crappy old bargain bin for KLCD. And you know, if I could have waited
01:24:31 ◼ ► Gary, you've probably already waited too long. So if you haven't already bought a new TV,
01:24:35 ◼ ► you should. Now people ask me what, what TVs should I buy or what are the best TVs? You
01:24:44 ◼ ► the best TVs, what I want from my television is a TV that shows the image as accurately
01:24:51 ◼ ► as possible and accurate. What does that mean? What does accurately mean? Well, when video
01:24:56 ◼ ► content is made, there are various standards for every part of the process, but also including
01:25:02 ◼ ► the coloration of the video that the people making it adhere to. They have very expensive
01:25:08 ◼ ► monitors, sometimes upwards like 30, $40,000 that adhere to these standards. So they can
01:25:26 ◼ ► $50,000 calibrated monitor, because otherwise they're making it a certain way. And they
01:25:37 ◼ ► and it's this dark and it's this light in this area. It looks the way I want it. There's
01:25:41 ◼ ► people whose job it is to do that. The various colorists and the people who control the lighting
01:25:44 ◼ ► on the show, like they want to look a certain way. They've made it a certain way. If they
01:25:48 ◼ ► send it out into the world and it gets into people's houses and their television is just
01:25:51 ◼ ► screwed all up and it looks weird, they're like, oh, that's not, that's not what I made.
01:25:55 ◼ ► I made, I wanted it to look like this, but then all these people are seeing it this way.
01:26:10 ◼ ► most people pick TVs. Most people, as we discussed in the past, pick TVs on whichever one is
01:26:13 ◼ ► brighter, right? Kind of like you pick whatever stereo is louder, pick whatever TV is brighter,
01:26:20 ◼ ► whatever colors are the most garish, the most oversaturated, like people just want things
01:26:31 ◼ ► not what they're supposed to look like. So if you don't care about that, then don't listen
01:26:36 ◼ ► to any of my TV recommendations, right? Second thing is I'm looking for the best. The best
01:26:41 ◼ ► also is going to mean the most expensive. These are very, very expensive TVs. You should
01:26:52 ◼ ► as good and as close to quote unquote, correct and accurate as possible. You don't care.
01:26:56 ◼ ► Don't spend this much money on TV, spend it on something you do care about. So with that
01:27:01 ◼ ► aside, in case you're wondering, given that framing, what TV should you buy in 2023? The
01:27:15 ◼ ► buying those. It's an old led display comes in 55, 65 and 77 inches. We'll put links in
01:27:23 ◼ ► bunny limb, which was a blind, one of the channels as a traditional blind viewing tests
01:27:29 ◼ ► where they invite a bunch of people from the industry in and TV calibrators and stuff to
01:27:34 ◼ ► judge televisions with a bunch of test footage, but they disguise the televisions. So you
01:27:37 ◼ ► can't see any part of the bezel or any part of the stand. Like they, you know, put cardboard
01:27:49 ◼ ► the second year in the row, the Sony won that contest as well. It's a quantum that OLED
01:27:54 ◼ ► television. It is much brighter than it was last year. And it now comes in 77 inch size
01:27:59 ◼ ► and it is horrendously expensive. But that's the answer. Sony and the five L the answer
01:28:03 ◼ ► next year may be different. So don't hear this and think you're going to buy next year's
01:28:11 ◼ ► But for 2023 if you want a TV and you want it to be the best, it's the Sony a 95 L which
01:28:17 ◼ ► for the record is $3,300 on Amazon on cyber Monday. But that's the 65 inch, right? Correct.
01:28:26 ◼ ► 77 is even more expensive. That is five grand for a television and you can't get a bigger
01:28:32 ◼ ► than 77 TVs do come in bigger than 70s anyway. So the net, the runner up is the LG C3. LG
01:28:40 ◼ ► television but they do have these micro lens array things where they put the tiny, tiny
01:28:44 ◼ ► microscopic lenses over the front of them. It makes it super duper bright. It does have
01:28:48 ◼ ► some advantages of the Sony 85 L but has more disadvantages. One of the advantages it has
01:28:53 ◼ ► is it comes in 83 inch size. It's also way less expensive than the Sony. It's less expensive
01:28:58 ◼ ► because LG in general is less expensive than Sony. And it's probably less expensive because
01:29:08 ◼ ► Samsung. So Sony has to buy them from Samsung and has to repackage them. LG C3 is great.
01:29:13 ◼ ► If you care about gaming, which you'll notice I didn't mention before, the LG televisions
01:29:33 ◼ ► PC to it, or even if you're connecting, you know, Xbox Series X and you want to run that
01:29:38 ◼ ► at really high frame rates with HDR and everything, the LG TVs are a better bet. Speaking of OLEDs,
01:29:44 ◼ ► the the final thing I'll tell you about the best televisions this year is since they are
01:29:48 ◼ ► both OLEDs, OLED burns in. It just does. If you have never had an OLED television or you
01:29:55 ◼ ► leave CNN on your television all day for hours at a time, don't get an OLED. You'll be sad.
01:30:01 ◼ ► If you are going to play a game with a permanent opaque HUD on the screen for hours and hours
01:30:06 ◼ ► and hours every day for years at a time, you will burn in your television. Don't do that.
01:30:16 ◼ ► maybe years long burn in tests of OLEDs. So you can just hopefully it'll be like one of
01:30:20 ◼ ► those scared straight videos that they show you to try to keep you off drugs in school.
01:30:24 ◼ ► When you see what these televisions look like, if they're left tuned to CNN all day with
01:30:27 ◼ ► a news ticker at the bottom, you will maybe think twice about leaving the room with the
01:30:31 ◼ ► television pause to go to the bathroom. I know these TVs all have screensavers and they
01:30:35 ◼ ► have all sorts of features to mitigate this, but the bottom line is do not leave static
01:30:39 ◼ ► elements on your OLED screen for a long period of time. They will burn in, you will be sad,
01:30:43 ◼ ► it will look bad. Don't do it. That's also part of the price you're paying for the very
01:30:47 ◼ ► best picture quality. It means you can't play a video game with a permanent HUD on it for
01:30:54 ◼ ► hours and hours a day. You cannot watch CNN for seven hours a day on these televisions.
01:30:59 ◼ ► It will ruin them. Don't do it. Watch movies, watch TV shows. Yeah, and definitely don't
01:31:03 ◼ ► play Minecraft unless you want to see the heart bar on everything you ever watch forever
01:31:07 ◼ ► after that. Yeah, that's why I was so excited about Tears of the Kingdom because I forget
01:31:11 ◼ ► a Breath of the Wild bits, but Tears of the Kingdom has a mode with no HUD. I was like,
01:31:14 ◼ ► yes, played the whole game, hundreds of hours on my television, no HUD. It's also a more
01:31:19 ◼ ► immersive experience. It's great. Although the Hallmark Channel is now putting a stupid
01:31:22 ◼ ► bug in the bottom corner of the screen half the time, which is really annoying. Does the
01:31:26 ◼ ► Hallmark Channel usually specify in very immersive experiences? I'm just like, what they have
01:31:32 ◼ ► in the bottom is like, you know, I don't know what that, the branding is for like Hallmark
01:31:36 ◼ ► Home for the holidays. It's like, I get it. We know we're watching a Hallmark movie. You
01:31:42 ◼ ► It's annoying. So what if you can't deal with an OLED? What if you plan on leaving it on
01:31:48 ◼ ► CNN all day? What other options do you have? They do make televisions that are not OLEDs,
01:32:10 ◼ ► the backlights and controlling bloom while still again, Sony's big thing is still having
01:32:14 ◼ ► accurate color and all of these things. You have to actually go to the settings and turn
01:32:17 ◼ ► them into whatever the accurate mode is called. I forget. I think it's called like custom
01:32:22 ◼ ► or professional on the Sony's. It's called filmmaker mode on the LG, which supports filmmaker
01:32:30 ◼ ► shown setting up the television is complicated and it's beyond the scope of these buying
01:32:35 ◼ ► recommendations. But yeah. And the other option for LCD television is the Sony X 90 L, which
01:32:42 ◼ ► is as far as I can tell, it's like a smaller size version of the X 95 L it comes in 55,
01:32:47 ◼ ► 75, 85 and 98. I guess it's probably older. It comes in really big size. It's older than
01:32:58 ◼ ► But both of these televisions are good choices. If you don't care about gaming, cause you
01:33:02 ◼ ► should just get an LG something if you do. Um, and, but you can't handle OLED cause you're
01:33:07 ◼ ► just not going to deal with that burn and stuff. So Sony X 95 L Sony X 90 L these televisions
01:33:13 ◼ ► will not have OLEDs burning issues. They will not look as good as OLEDs, but they'll look
01:33:17 ◼ ► pretty darn good. And by good, I mean pretty darn accurate. And the final thing that I'll
01:33:22 ◼ ► say is if you want to hear about televisions that are not horrendously expensive because
01:33:59 ◼ ► actually took a lot less time than I thought. I think that might've been quicker than your
01:34:01 ◼ ► Thunderbolt five. And I've also gone through, I've been advising a friend about buying a
01:34:06 ◼ ► fancy television this year. So I had to, not that I'm not usually on top of this stuff,
01:34:18 ◼ ► other televisions. So for a while it was like, is the Sony going to be the best one this
01:34:22 ◼ ► year? But the answer is yes. So that's kind of a shame because 2024 is going to be here
01:34:25 ◼ ► and the 2024 TVs, guess what? They'll be better. So you have to do what I did, which is like
01:34:34 ◼ ► keep waiting till next year's model, next year's model will always be better. So there's
01:34:39 ◼ ► just no getting off that treadmill. And that's how you end up replacing a plasma television
01:34:44 ◼ ► Out of curiosity what, what, what part of the year does the model year typically turnover
01:34:50 ◼ ► for TVs? That's a good question. It used to be more synced up to be kind of like spring
01:34:55 ◼ ► after CES, but the Sony like barely came out in the fall. I think some of that might've
01:35:01 ◼ ► been like delays with the second generation QD OLED panels. So at this point it's like,
01:35:06 ◼ ► I mean, it's still mostly spring, but because the best TV this year is out in the fall,
01:35:13 ◼ ► it spreads it over the whole year. So like the reviews have kind of been staggering out.
01:35:27 ◼ ► smeared across kind of the whole middle of the year, which kind of sucks, but it's just,
01:35:31 ◼ ► that's something you have to do. You can't like, there's no like, Oh, buy now. And then
01:35:42 ◼ ► available. But you know, that's, that's the way it is. You can't, you can't wait forever.
01:35:51 ◼ ► in terms of maximum brightness and everything is bigger than whatever the jump will be next
01:35:56 ◼ ► year from the second generation to the third. Who knows, maybe there won't be a new panel
01:36:00 ◼ ► and maybe it'll just be a new chip set. That is the one annoying thing that I should mention
01:36:03 ◼ ► there, which again, you can't do anything about, but, um, the reason LG is good at gaming
01:36:08 ◼ ► is because they make their own chips for handling like the HTMI crap and everything. I think
01:36:13 ◼ ► they're the only company that supports full bandwidth, 48 gigabits per second, HTMI 2.1
01:36:19 ◼ ► on all their HTMI ports. Every other TV in the entire world supports it on like two ports.
01:36:29 ◼ ► the other companies to do it as well, maybe. And these companies only support 48 full 48
01:36:34 ◼ ► gigabits per second on a small number of ports. Their chipsets just don't support it on. So
01:36:41 ◼ ► this only matters for high frame rate, meaning like 120 frames per second, high bit depth
01:36:47 ◼ ► stuff. So it really only matters for PC gaming or high, you know, high end console gaming,
01:36:50 ◼ ► but really PC gaming. So most people don't care, but it is disappointing that like we've
01:36:55 ◼ ► been, you know, HTMI 2.1 has been out for many years now. And still when you buy a television,
01:37:00 ◼ ► you have to look in the manual and say, which one is HTMI one or two or three, like which
01:37:04 ◼ ► one of these are the quote unquote good ones. And do I care for the device that I'm connecting
01:37:08 ◼ ► it? There was a rumor back before CES speaking of CES that a media tech was coming out with
01:37:18 ◼ ► was marketing BS live because as we discussed before, you can call your say for HTMI 2.1
01:37:23 ◼ ► if you support like any subset of the features. So yeah, only two of the ports were 40 gigabits
01:37:27 ◼ ► per second. And that was disappointing. So yeah, it does make that much of a difference.
01:37:37 ◼ ► the good ones. It's kind of like if you bought a MacBook Pro and there was like one thunderbolt
01:37:40 ◼ ► four port and the rest of them were USB and you had to remember which one it was. That's
01:37:43 ◼ ► what televisions have been like, I don't know for many, many years now. And I just, we're
01:37:48 ◼ ► just all waiting around for one of these third party companies that does the, the chip sets
01:37:53 ◼ ► say all the ports are good. They're all, they all support all the things and we're still
01:37:56 ◼ ► not there. And that's one of the reasons, by the way, one of the reasons Sony is expensive
01:38:00 ◼ ► and one of the reasons it wins and speaks, Sony puts its own additional processing chips
01:38:09 ◼ ► It also adds a little bit of input lag, which is another reason you should get an LG if
01:38:13 ◼ ► Steven Tyler writes, have we have a file stored in iCloud drive randomly revert to an earlier
01:38:22 ◼ ► found that iCloud drive suddenly reverted back to a version of the file that predates the
01:38:26 ◼ ► most recent edits by four days, losing around 10 sets of edits that happened over those
01:38:31 ◼ ► four days. I had no time machine backup because I had been away from my time machine external
01:38:34 ◼ ► drive and assumed I was safe because I was editing a file live synchronized with iCloud
01:38:38 ◼ ► drive. Apple support escalated to Apple engineering and engineering replied that no forensic data
01:38:48 ◼ ► in other words, apparently piss off Steven Tyler. Uh, that's not fun. I use iCloud drive
01:38:54 ◼ ► extremely sparingly, so I can't say I've witnessed this. Uh, Marco, have you ever had anything
01:39:01 ◼ ► like this happen? Are you even using iCloud drive for anything? Um, I use it again like
01:39:05 ◼ ► you extremely sparingly. I only have a relatively small number of files in there. Usually it
01:39:17 ◼ ► stuff just for ease of cross device use from those apps. Um, but for the most part, I don't
01:39:29 ◼ ► app to access it on my max. Um, and so basically I use Dropbox and with a third party app and
01:39:41 ◼ ► don't use iCloud drive for more things is that we occasionally hear about problems that
01:39:46 ◼ ► are in this ballpark, some kind of data integrity problem or data loss problem. Um, that it
01:39:52 ◼ ► just makes me, I know lots of people out there using iCloud drive just fine and never having
01:40:01 ◼ ► as far as I'm aware, but because we've heard occasional things like this from people, it
01:40:13 ◼ ► thing to emphasize here is a, once again, cloud storage is not a backup. I know that's,
01:40:24 ◼ ► a backup. That's a live, that's the live place where you're messing with the data. And if
01:40:29 ◼ ► that service messes it up, that's when you need your backup. Uh, if you don't have one,
01:40:33 ◼ ► it's bad. Uh, iCloud drive, I've always been wary of it in the beginning was super duper
01:40:38 ◼ ► buggy. And even though it's supposedly gotten better, uh, you know, regardless of what you
01:40:46 ◼ ► on podcasts or whatever, one thing we do know is it has very limited user control. There's
01:40:55 ◼ ► to some articles from eclectic light company, which is a website where, uh, the delves into
01:41:10 ◼ ► has like a branded name or whatever, but what has implemented that the actual code that
01:41:18 ◼ ► code that runs on the servers that has changed so much over the years. But through all of
01:41:22 ◼ ► it, it has never been a time where it's been like Dropbox where there's like a button you
01:41:31 ◼ ► It would just, in the olden days, you just launched Dropbox and it would, when it starts
01:41:37 ◼ ► it would synchronize them and do something. And if you wanted to do the thing again, you
01:41:46 ◼ ► that type of control in the Mac has always been a problem. People will be like, I'm getting
01:42:00 ◼ ► and it should be downloading, but it's not changing. What can I do? Like Apple has this
01:42:09 ◼ ► iCloud. And I like, when I say design, I don't mean like the way the code is laid out. This
01:42:13 ◼ ► is the features that they've chosen to expose. It's great if, if it worked a hundred percent
01:42:18 ◼ ► reliably, but it doesn't. And when it doesn't, you're left reading articles like this, like
01:42:23 ◼ ► company ones and keep doing kill all bird D or whatever the hell they're trying to find
01:42:26 ◼ ► out, whichever demon controls this these days and figuring out what's changed in Sonoma
01:42:32 ◼ ► versus the previous version and whether you're using the file provider version of the thing
01:42:36 ◼ ► or like just, it's not what I want out of my cloud storage. Dropbox is also increasingly
01:42:46 ◼ ► for the days of FTP where you explicitly did operations. And when you did them, they were
01:42:54 ◼ ► backups, but I'm personally super duper wary of iCloud drive still because I don't feel
01:42:59 ◼ ► like it gives me enough control and I'm still using miraculously somehow the non file provider
01:43:05 ◼ ► version of Dropbox, which I mean is the version of Dropbox that doesn't use Apple's new file
01:43:09 ◼ ► provider API APIs and uses whatever the bad old version of Dropbox use where it did sneaky
01:43:19 ◼ ► and annoyances works reliably and I can, when I quit it, I know it's not running. And when
01:43:24 ◼ ► I launched it sinks everything back up again. You know, there are other solutions to, you
01:43:37 ◼ ► to me to tell me all their stuff has gone. And practically speaking, most of their stuff
01:43:45 ◼ ► Synology like he would back when he was back in the house. So it's just iCloud drive or
01:43:50 ◼ ► nothing. In my experience, Google drive is more reliable, not the Mac version of Google
01:43:55 ◼ ► drive, but Google drive as used through the web, which is a lot of what both of my kids
01:44:11 ◼ ► put a link to that in the show notes. So no cloud storage is perfect, right? That's why
01:44:16 ◼ ► you have to actually have backups. Cloud storage is not a backup. You could have a backup in
01:44:35 ◼ ► up. Make another copy of that. Put it elsewhere. Not an iCloud. Take the stuff that's an iCloud
01:44:40 ◼ ► drive and put it someplace that's not iCloud drive. Take the stuff that's in Google drive,
01:44:46 ◼ ► Hell, my photos are also quote unquote backed up to Google photos as a backup of last resort
01:44:52 ◼ ► in addition to the 700 other places they backed up just because it's another place, right?
01:44:57 ◼ ► And what you're hoping is they don't all get hosed at the same time. So yeah. Anyway, moral
01:45:01 ◼ ► of the story is I personally would still stay away from iCloud drive, but I know lots of
01:45:08 ◼ ► All right. Marcos Venetius Petri writes, considering that push notifications are unaffected by
01:45:13 ◼ ► disabling background app refresh, which apps should we allow or block from refreshing in
01:45:18 ◼ ► the background? What kind of convenience will I lose by disabling it and how much more battery
01:45:27 ◼ ► here, with CallSheet, I sync a handful of things like search history and spoiler settings
01:45:41 ◼ ► can tell that that works by Apple sending push notifications to your phone to say, Hey,
01:45:55 ◼ ► go and fetch these updates. And that all happens through this background app refresh mechanism
01:46:01 ◼ ► as far as I'm aware. And so if, for example, you turn that off the CallSheet, is that not
01:46:06 ◼ ► true? Okay, so correct me. Well, background. So background refresh for apps is it's an API
01:46:13 ◼ ► that like apps, apps can register with the system and say basically like wake me up six
01:46:26 ◼ ► called a BG task and it used to be done via a few older methods, but that's the current
01:46:33 ◼ ► way to do it. And it's literally you request that the system wake you up sometime in the
01:46:37 ◼ ► future so that you can then have a short time, usually like, you know, maybe a minute or
01:46:42 ◼ ► half a minute in the background that you can like fetch news data from your server or update
01:46:47 ◼ ► your widgets or whatever else. There's a couple other mechanisms as well. There's a background
01:46:51 ◼ ► processing task, which the phone will only let your app do if it's plugged in. But that
01:46:58 ◼ ► allows you to use a bunch of CPU power in the background, which normally you'd be terminated
01:47:02 ◼ ► for doing. But so if you need to do something like overcast does it's search indexing with
01:47:07 ◼ ► that process where if you, if you plug your phone in overnight, you know, it'll probably
01:47:12 ◼ ► wake overcast up at some point in the night and overcast will make sure the search index
01:47:16 ◼ ► is up to date for all the, all your downloaded podcasts. The other method of background refresh
01:47:21 ◼ ► sort of is you can send from your servers, you can send a silent push notification that
01:47:28 ◼ ► simply wakes the app up. It's called a content available push notification and that wakes
01:47:32 ◼ ► the app up in the background and gives you a few seconds really to like, you know, kick
01:47:36 ◼ ► off network tasks or try to try to do something in the background. And those are not guaranteed
01:47:41 ◼ ► to wake your app up. They're kind of like a best effort thing and the system can throttle
01:47:59 ◼ ► in some cases. But, but power state's the most important. So in low power mode, I believe
01:48:08 ◼ ► that changes when you turn on low power mode. Normally in other cases it will, it will monitor
01:48:13 ◼ ► the battery level. So if your phone is plugged in, it will allow these things to run pretty
01:48:29 ◼ ► let these things run. Now, yes, you can go in there and you can manually toggle off all
01:48:43 ◼ ► Don't bother. Let the system manage it because the system is really good at managing it.
01:49:00 ◼ ► then we will suspend you again. Kind of, kind of a mechanic there. So it's not, the app
01:49:06 ◼ ► is not running continuously. And as mentioned, you can only do the super CPU intensive tasks
01:49:12 ◼ ► from the background processing task type that only runs when the phone's plugged in. The
01:49:16 ◼ ► regular background refresh when you're out there on battery, the phone is also enforcing
01:49:20 ◼ ► certain CPU usage limits so that you're not burning too much battery power then. And it
01:49:29 ◼ ► that long. The other side of it is like, if you turn off background refresh for an app,
01:49:34 ◼ ► oftentimes you are making things worse for yourself. There is precedent like, you know,
01:49:38 ◼ ► when a while back, we've talked about this before, a while back, if you would quote force
01:49:42 ◼ ► quit an app, if you remove it from the multi-tasking switcher, it wouldn't allow background refresh.
01:49:47 ◼ ► And Apple in a later iOS version changed that to no longer affect background refresh state,
01:49:53 ◼ ► or at least maybe it acts as an input to how frequently to do it, maybe, but probably not
01:49:57 ◼ ► even that anymore, because people were disabling background refresh unintentionally by quote
01:50:02 ◼ ► force quitting the app, and then the apps weren't working that well. They were not getting
01:50:22 ◼ ► good at managing this stuff. I mean, again, see also force quitting apps. There's a lot
01:50:29 ◼ ► on something is one thing, but force quitting an app just because you think it'll save your
01:50:32 ◼ ► battery power, that's a little squishier and a little bit harder to prove and oftentimes
01:50:38 ◼ ► not doing what you think it's doing. So same thing with disabling background refresh. Generally
01:50:42 ◼ ► speaking, you should leave it alone unless there is a specific problem you've identified
01:50:57 ◼ ► One factor you might want to consider is if you have a lot of apps installed, but there's
01:51:03 ◼ ► a bunch of ones that you never use, like ideally the system would notice that you never use
01:51:06 ◼ ► them and not allow them to back or refresh, but it does currently, I don't think it currently
01:51:10 ◼ ► does that to the degree of it. No, it does. Well, I'll give you an example. I have flighty
01:51:16 ◼ ► installed. I rarely use it, but I do use it, but very rarely when I'm picking something
01:51:21 ◼ ► up from the airport or when I'm flying myself, which is enough to allow flighty to do stuff
01:51:31 ◼ ► I do not want flighty to refresh in the background. So if I wrote, and if I found that it was
01:51:35 ◼ ► using a lot of background energy or whatever, if it showed up in my battery list or whatever,
01:51:39 ◼ ► I would say, why is flighty on the list? I don't have a flight that I have to deal with
01:51:47 ◼ ► turn it back on though, because you're going to be like, why isn't flighty working to Marco's
01:51:54 ◼ ► know, so if you're not going to remember to do that, if you're not going to micromanage
01:51:57 ◼ ► it, then you might want to deal with it manually for apps that you, not apps that you never
01:52:03 ◼ ► use, but apps that you use infrequently. And flight tracking is a great example because
01:52:22 ◼ ► in flights for three months, then you can turn it off. The other option is just uninstall
01:52:35 ◼ ► going to do the opposite. I'm going to do opt in. I'm going to turn a background refresh
01:52:37 ◼ ► off on everything. And I'm only going to turn on the apps that I care about. Just to use
01:52:41 ◼ ► low power mode at that point, low power mode will do that for you. Essentially not allowing
01:52:49 ◼ ► care that much about your battery, or if you have a phone that like the battery is dying
01:52:52 ◼ ► on and you don't want to replace the battery, use low power mode and you'll see what it's
01:52:56 ◼ ► like to have a phone that doesn't really refresh in the background anymore. And then every
01:53:12 ◼ ► enable background refresh, it will make the experience better so that when you've launched
01:53:17 ◼ ► the app, oh, look, all my podcasts are already up to date. I don't need to pull to refresh
01:53:23 ◼ ► example because like podcasts, you know, people mostly care about, let me see my new podcast
01:53:26 ◼ ► for the day. They don't need to see the new podcast every two minutes. It'll refresh during
01:53:38 ◼ ► mean, I would even go as far as to say like, don't do what John just said, but like turn
01:53:41 ◼ ► it off if you don't use it for awhile because a iOS, I don't know if the current versions
01:53:46 ◼ ► do this, but frequency of use and most recent use was, were factors that could, that the,
01:53:53 ◼ ► that iOS would consider when deciding how frequently to allow apps to background refresh.
01:53:59 ◼ ► So that's already kind of being done automatically for you as far as I know, at least it was.
01:54:03 ◼ ► And secondly, the whole idea of, oh, I'm going to turn this off now and I'll maybe I'll remember
01:54:08 ◼ ► to turn it back on later. You won't, you definitely won't, it will stay off and flatty will just
01:54:19 ◼ ► back back when I worked on the internet, it was always kind of frustrating when we would
01:54:24 ◼ ► get reports from people saying feature X is broken on your website. And after some digging,
01:54:31 ◼ ► it would turned out to be, oh, they're running some browser extension that interferes with
01:54:35 ◼ ► the JavaScript that breaks this website. And so it's like they modify their experience.
01:54:47 ◼ ► they made. And that causes support headaches and it causes bad user experiences. And it
01:54:55 ◼ ► with those kinds of settings with, you know, I'm going to lock down these apps and make
01:55:07 ◼ ► be toggling a switch that does something that you didn't quite intend for it to do, where
01:55:16 ◼ ► identified a specific problem with a specific app that you need to address this way, don't
01:55:21 ◼ ► mess with it. Just let it do the default. Because again, iOS does a very good job already
01:55:27 ◼ ► at managing background refresh frequency for apps. And so you don't really need to override
01:55:46 ◼ ► Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin. Cause it was accidental. Oh it was
01:55:53 ◼ ► accidental. John didn't do any research. Margo and Casey wouldn't let him. Cause it was accidental.
01:56:04 ◼ ► It was accidental. And you can find the show notes at atp.fm. And if you're into Twitter,
01:56:26 ◼ ► M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N S-I-R-A-C U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A. It's accidental. They didn't mean to. Accidental.
01:56:45 ◼ ► Tech broadcast so long. What do we have to talk about? I had the idea of maybe our fitness
01:56:50 ◼ ► requirements/routines because we were talking about that earlier Casey and it seems like
01:56:56 ◼ ► you seem to be wanting to exercise every day or something like every day. And I thought
01:57:04 ◼ ► that was kind of an interesting thing to discuss because I think that's, I don't think that
01:57:10 ◼ ► has always been the case for you. No it certainly hasn't. Near history yes. Longer history
01:57:30 ◼ ► long it's been. There have definitely been days that I have not done a dedicated workout
01:57:44 ◼ ► don't know if Underscore even supports anymore. I have 870 days of, that's with rest I think,
01:57:52 ◼ ► oh no that's without rest, 870 days of exercise goal hit and move goal hit. Apparently I missed
01:57:59 ◼ ► my stand ring once a couple hundred days ago so I only have 204 days there. I guess I'm
01:58:07 ◼ ► no longer a blue ring stud but nevertheless, yeah I think whatever, that is a deep cut,
01:58:14 ◼ ► so whatever 870 days before today was I started getting more serious about doing something
01:58:27 ◼ ► sort of video based workout. Sometimes that's Apple Fitness Plus and often but not always
01:58:49 ◼ ► is I'll do, it used to be called Beachbody now I think it's called Body. You would know
01:58:54 ◼ ► them because they're the P90X people and their whole service is very interesting. There's
01:59:10 ◼ ► and otherwise you'll never get the exercise, the gains that you want and so on and so forth
01:59:14 ◼ ► which I don't pay any attention to. But what they do have is they do have a pretty robust
01:59:32 ◼ ► and I think they're starting to add features like this. But one of the ways that Fitness
01:59:37 ◼ ► Plus falls down to me is that it doesn't have any concept of a longer term thing and so
01:59:45 ◼ ► you can go every day and just pick out a random strength training video and you can specialize
01:59:49 ◼ ► and say I'd like an upper body strength video or I'd want a lower body one or a full body
01:59:54 ◼ ► one. But there's no real concept of like over time I would like to have some sort of consistency
02:00:08 ◼ ► can do like a three to six to eight week program where you're doing basically the same moves
02:00:15 ◼ ► in different orders and in different combinations and whatnot over the course of that two months
02:00:19 ◼ ► or what have you. And so unfortunately because I like food too damn much, I don't know the
02:00:25 ◼ ► next time you see me Marco, I don't know that I'll look that different. In fact, for all
02:00:29 ◼ ► I know, maybe I've gotten bigger. I haven't been on a scale in a while because that doesn't
02:00:32 ◼ ► really matter to me that much. I don't recommend it. Honestly, I understand the utility of
02:00:59 ◼ ► So there's that. There are definitely bulgy things that vaguely resemble muscles in places
02:01:15 ◼ ► Erin said something in this all, but stemmed from Erin starting to take fitness and nutrition.
02:01:24 ◼ ► seriously over the last two to three to five years. But one of the things she said to me
02:01:34 ◼ ► to be there for your kids, leaving aside that is the right thing to do to exercise if you
02:01:45 ◼ ► I work out at about two o'clock in the afternoon, sometimes after an afternoon siesta, not always,
02:01:49 ◼ ► but sometimes whatever works for you, whatever works, man. But one of the things that Aaron
02:01:55 ◼ ► said to me, which now is less relevant because both the kids are in school, but she said,
02:02:11 ◼ ► of our lives is doing some sort of physical exertion and activity. And so, like I said,
02:02:19 ◼ ► know, HIIT training, um, generally directed by some sort of program on, on Beachbody or
02:02:24 ◼ ► whatever it's called. A lot of times I'll do like an eight week program on, on Beachbody
02:02:29 ◼ ► and then I'll take a couple of weeks and just do random Apple Fitness Plus workouts to kind
02:02:36 ◼ ► program or what have you. And then typically in the weekends, um, in lieu of like a full
02:02:41 ◼ ► on rest day, Aaron and I will go on a long walk together. So we'll walk like effectively
02:02:45 ◼ ► a 5k, so like three, you know, three ish miles and we'll do that on the weekends. And that
02:02:50 ◼ ► gives us our exercise. Um, and, and, and we're not lifting over the weekend. That is probably
02:02:55 ◼ ► 80,000 words where 10 would have done. But, uh, since you asked that, that's where I stand.
02:03:00 ◼ ► Yeah, exactly. Uh, but you also, you and Tiff both have also gotten very, and this happened,
02:03:09 ◼ ► saw each other in 2019. Uh, but you guys have also gotten extremely serious and you made
02:03:17 ◼ ► have you. So this has also been a pretty serious thing for you guys. Yeah, it really has. I
02:03:22 ◼ ► mean, you know, for, it started out, um, that, you know, it was, she's probably seven or
02:03:27 ◼ ► eight years ago. Um, Tiff started training with this trainer that was in our neighborhood,
02:03:33 ◼ ► um, that, you know, a few of her, a few of our other friends here were using. And then,
02:03:40 ◼ ► were. And then like one day Tiff's like, you know, you should really start this. I'm like,
02:03:49 ◼ ► turns out that like he, that he was just starting a guy class together. Like they, like they,
02:03:57 ◼ ► right, you know what, I'll go to that. Sure. And it was hard for me because you know, this,
02:04:01 ◼ ► I was, I was in my, you know, early to mid thirties at this point. I've never, I've never
02:04:10 ◼ ► so I never felt good going to gyms. Like I, I go to a gym and there'd be, you know, all
02:04:25 ◼ ► I want is for me to try to do that in front of all of you like that. So, um, I'd had gym
02:04:32 ◼ ► memberships occasionally before and I, it just never stuck cause I would go and I would,
02:04:37 ◼ ► I would be intimidated or not know what to do frankly. Um, and, and I never really enjoyed
02:04:43 ◼ ► it before. Anyway, so fast forward. So this trainer, um, I was a little, you know, he's
02:04:58 ◼ ► for geez, something like seven or eight years now. He is very unlike what you would expect
02:05:08 ◼ ► people picture, you know, trainers from gyms, you picture those guys or some kind of like,
02:05:19 ◼ ► you picture that kind of thing and I am not compatible with that at all. Um, but the good
02:05:25 ◼ ► thing is our trainer is wonderful and is nothing like that at all. He is relentlessly positive.
02:05:32 ◼ ► He never makes you feel bad about yourself at all. He trains people at all levels. Like
02:05:42 ◼ ► who were more fit than me, guys who were less fit than me. Like I didn't feel intimidated
02:05:46 ◼ ► and he is so amazing and positive and awesome. If anybody actually needs a trainer, feel
02:05:52 ◼ ► free to write it. Cause he, what happened was during COVID, um, he moved and we switched
02:05:57 ◼ ► to FaceTime. And so he does training via FaceTime and zoom now, which you would think wouldn't
02:06:02 ◼ ► work. It surprisingly works. Like he sees everything and look, the downside, of course,
02:06:12 ◼ ► because you're paying for someone's time directly to work with you. So of course it's going
02:06:16 ◼ ► to be way more expensive than most other ways to do this. Um, the advantage, if you can
02:06:20 ◼ ► swing it, um, is that for me, nothing ever stuck because I would be like, Oh, you know,
02:06:28 ◼ ► I'm a little, I'm really busy today or I'm feeling a little, a little energy today. I'm
02:06:32 ◼ ► going to skip the workout today when there's a person who you are going to meet that changes
02:06:47 ◼ ► one of my greatest personality flaws, it makes me, makes me vulnerable to every type of sales
02:07:04 ◼ ► I very much care about that to a fault. And so I never miss workouts. Basically like if
02:07:22 ◼ ► and anything he asked me to do in the workout, even if it seems really hard, I'll try it
02:07:33 ◼ ► so, you know, it is, it is wonderful. Again, if you're in the market for a virtual trainer,
02:07:44 ◼ ► if you think like, oh, he's maybe, you know, if you're intimidated by the idea of a trainer
02:08:00 ◼ ► neck hurts. And like, all right, we'll modify it. I'll modify it on the fly to like, you
02:08:03 ◼ ► know, fit whatever you need to fit. Like he's great. Anyway, so that, that really has changed
02:08:09 ◼ ► things for me because I went from, you know, before training with him, I went from basically
02:08:14 ◼ ► never exercising or very rarely exercising to at first doing it once a week, then slowly
02:08:19 ◼ ► ramped up. Now we're, now we're doing three times a week and between those I will occasionally
02:08:24 ◼ ► row or run depending on the season. And now I've finally crossed over to the point where
02:08:30 ◼ ► I care enough that I feel bad when I don't work out for a while. Like if we're traveling
02:08:49 ◼ ► when, you know, like whenever I go on vacation for a while or I'm not able to work for a
02:08:57 ◼ ► been able to cause I'm out or whatever. Now my body feels like that. Like now if I'm out
02:09:02 ◼ ► and I like if I'm traveling or whatever and can't work out for a few days, my body gets
02:09:24 ◼ ► I don't, I probably don't look that strong cause I'm not doing like bodybuilding stuff.
02:09:40 ◼ ► before. And as you get older too, like, and, and this is one of the, one of the greatest
02:09:44 ◼ ► things about having somebody guide you like as a trainer or a training app or something,
02:09:50 ◼ ► I would never think to do some of the exercises that we do. Most of them I would never think
02:10:25 ◼ ► all this, you know, wonderful mixed training of all these different muscles, I know that
02:10:30 ◼ ► my odds of getting those injuries and chronic pain down the road are lower and that if I
02:10:34 ◼ ► do get any kind of weird injury, my odds are better that I, that it will heal better and
02:10:39 ◼ ► faster and you know, it won't affect my life as much maybe. And so as you get older, it's
02:10:43 ◼ ► kind of like saving for retirement. Like you should really start doing it as soon as you
02:11:11 ◼ ► great talks a lot about how that has, that has really changed his life and that, that's,
02:11:19 ◼ ► would probably try that next. But ultimately for me, I really need the human that I want
02:11:30 ◼ ► I was poking about generating links for the show notes and I thought I had seen something
02:11:42 ◼ ► custom plan where the little blur marketing blur breeds stay consistent on your fitness
02:11:50 ◼ ► durations, workout types, meditation, themes, trainers, and music, and fitness plus will
02:11:53 ◼ ► generate a custom plan just for you and with stacks, which is another new thing of theirs
02:12:00 ◼ ► to the next with no interruptions. Just set it and then get it. So I, this is more along
02:12:05 ◼ ► the lines of what I feel like I do get from the beach body stuff, which I think is called
02:12:14 ◼ ► the plan part, like the stack thing where you roll from one workout to another, whatever.
02:12:22 ◼ ► finished my current program on, on body then I'll probably at least fiddle with this custom
02:12:27 ◼ ► plan thing. And I will say that if you're new to this, well, first of all, talk to somebody
02:12:33 ◼ ► who actually knows what they're doing, preferably like a doctor or a or a fitness specialist,
02:12:48 ◼ ► get a little broey from time to time and not, not to say it's all dudes that are training,
02:12:53 ◼ ► but you know, given that it came from P90X, you can see how it could get a little aggressive
02:13:02 ◼ ► it. Again, if you can filter out all the, you know, take this chemical, that's the only
02:13:07 ◼ ► way you'll get fit business. Um, but nevertheless, uh, with the fitness plus stuff is a really
02:13:19 ◼ ► you can physically do without hurting yourself. And if there's, if it's anything that you
02:13:23 ◼ ► enjoy. So, uh, especially if you happen to be an apple one or whatever it's called subscriber,
02:13:27 ◼ ► um, I would definitely at least give it a whirl. And I really do quite love having, and
02:13:37 ◼ ► see your rings right there on the screen as you're doing a workout, which is super nice
02:13:40 ◼ ► to see yourself as you're doing this workout, see yourself cranking through your red ring
02:13:44 ◼ ► and your green ring and what have you. I find that to be very motivating. And speaking of
02:13:49 ◼ ► rings, and I promise John, I'll give you a chance here. Um, I think what has helped for
02:13:53 ◼ ► me is having gotten a 800 plus day streak going. And there definitely have been a couple
02:14:01 ◼ ► of days where I probably should have just not worked out or whatever, but on the whole,
02:14:08 ◼ ► I think similar to you saying Marco that you had someone to answer to, I have this momentum
02:14:19 ◼ ► I'm going to be doing a little bit of traveling soon and I've been thinking through and I
02:14:23 ◼ ► was talking with Marco about this, you know, what, what can I do for some modicum of exercise
02:14:28 ◼ ► during this travel window? And I think what I'll end up doing is just going for a walk,
02:14:35 ◼ ► something to get my body moving, something to close my rings and keep that momentum going
02:14:44 ◼ ► missed days and I can, I can see myself immediately just giving up on it just out of complacency.
02:14:50 ◼ ► Like not, not because I desire sitting here to not work out. I actually do enjoy it like
02:15:00 ◼ ► and fall into my natural state of being, which is, I'll, I'll worry about that tomorrow.
02:15:09 ◼ ► me to exercise at times and maybe I shouldn't, I shouldn't have. Uh, Jon, I, I will stop
02:15:14 ◼ ► talking now. I apologize. What is your regimen to have you worked on this at all? I think
02:15:18 ◼ ► before you, you quit and went full, full Indy, I thought you had said that this was one of
02:15:26 ◼ ► I hate working out. I don't like it at all. It's not what I prefer. Uh, in, in my youth,
02:15:32 ◼ ► uh, what I wanted to do was play sports. Uh, and as a side effect of playing sports, you
02:15:41 ◼ ► and to enjoy the sport and the exercise is just a nice side benefit. Uh, I ran, I played
02:15:47 ◼ ► tennis in high school. I also ran in high school and in running I got terrible, terrible
02:16:01 ◼ ► So the ripe old age of 48 or whatever the hell I am now, um, they're still there lurking.
02:16:12 ◼ ► me as a possible activity, which I think I probably would have done because even though
02:16:16 ◼ ► running is not, you know, I'm not gonna say it's not that much of a sport, but it's not
02:16:21 ◼ ► like a sport with a ball or a type of skill thing. It's more of a, you know, it's an endurance
02:16:25 ◼ ► thing. It's, it's aerobic activity and stuff like that. But there is a goal like you're
02:16:28 ◼ ► trying to get your times to go better or whatever and not being able to run for exercise kind
02:16:45 ◼ ► any exercise or working out at all, which is probably not a great plan. Um, I also didn't
02:16:57 ◼ ► flare up. Even something as simple as basketball or tennis, even though you're not, don't seem
02:17:01 ◼ ► like you're running that much, you are kind of running a little bit. Uh, and so, and you
02:17:05 ◼ ► know, practically speaking, especially when I was, had my jobby job and doing all my extra
02:17:10 ◼ ► things at the same time, there was just no time, kids, family, work, uh, side jobs, all
02:17:20 ◼ ► me leave my job was I need some time to do something. Right. Uh, so now, uh, in my indie
02:17:32 ◼ ► thing that I can do, which is not, it's better than nothing, but it's not really complete.
02:17:37 ◼ ► There's still lots of holes in my thing here, but I've latched onto is the thing I can do.
02:17:50 ◼ ► running it's number go down. Right. But like that's the, that's essentially the game, right?
02:18:15 ◼ ► you have like, you know, 30 seconds between them or whatever, like it doesn't take a really
02:18:18 ◼ ► long time. Unlike like if you're doing some kind of aerobic exercise, you might have to
02:18:22 ◼ ► do it for a very long time to get benefit from it. But you know, five sets of five reps
02:18:30 ◼ ► do it. Uh, that does something and it's better than nothing. I still need much more aerobic
02:18:40 ◼ ► still really be playing sports, but, uh, it's not really a surprise to me, but maybe surprise
02:18:44 ◼ ► to people who have young children and think, Oh, it'll be so much easier when they're older.
02:18:57 ◼ ► know, the whole college application process and SATs and driver's licenses and the teen
02:19:07 ◼ ► out of the nest, uh, that involves a surprising amount of parent involvement. So much more
02:19:12 ◼ ► than you had been doing when they were like 12 or 11, kind of at the same level that you
02:19:26 ◼ ► because now they have to deal with bureaucracies and you have to help them navigate them. And
02:19:30 ◼ ► it's just, anyway, all of that is to say that although I have carved out time, I do the
02:19:36 ◼ ► weightlifting about three times a week. I'll put a link in the show notes to Casey Johnson's
02:19:40 ◼ ► couch to barbell, uh, program, which is loosely what I initially based what I was doing on
02:19:46 ◼ ► and bought a bunch of weights during COVID like so many other people did. And I've upgraded
02:19:49 ◼ ► that weight set a few times and have an adjustable things. Now I don't have a very fancy setup.
02:19:57 ◼ ► That's another good thing about weightlifting. If you can buy heavy, the right kind of heavy
02:20:01 ◼ ► objects for lifting and you can do a surprising number of exercises in your house. I think
02:20:06 ◼ ► Marco is also doing all his exercises in his house with limited equipment. You don't need,
02:20:11 ◼ ► you don't necessarily need a gym to do stuff. And believe me, the weights on lifting are
02:20:28 ◼ ► week and you're like, what happened? I mean, I guess it also doesn't help that I'm, you
02:20:32 ◼ ► know, old and getting close to 50 or whatever. But yeah, like it shows me that something
02:20:38 ◼ ► is happening and I guess what number goes up, you know, you start out lifting this much
02:20:42 ◼ ► weight. And then after a week, you had five more pounds and yet another five more pounds
02:20:45 ◼ ► and yet another five more pounds. Like eventually you get to a limit where I mean, I eventually
02:20:49 ◼ ► I'll get to the limit of my, my weight sets where they can't put on anymore, but I haven't
02:20:53 ◼ ► reached that yet. So that's what I'm doing. It's better than nothing, but it's not enough.
02:21:05 ◼ ► plan is like, okay, or I have one kid in college now and one kid going through that process.
02:21:10 ◼ ► When I have both kids out of the house and in college, then I won't be, which I'm currently
02:21:16 ◼ ► in drive my daughter to school in the morning, picking her up in the afternoon, driving her
02:21:24 ◼ ► her driving test, which is scheduled for December. And we'll see like lots of driving people
02:21:28 ◼ ► around. That's not good exercise, but that does occupy a large portion of my day dealing
02:21:41 ◼ ► have carved out three days a week to do exercise, and I have tried to pack an efficient kind
02:21:45 ◼ ► of exercise in there. Cause again, I think weightlifting is very time and space efficient.
02:21:55 ◼ ► to school. I want to do a sport. I don't want to work out like, wait, I don't, I don't enjoy
02:22:01 ◼ ► the weightlifting either, even though it's kind of gamified, would much rather be doing
02:22:10 ◼ ► you couldn't do X and now you can do X right. Weightlifting does have that going forward.
02:22:18 ◼ ► sports, but tune in in about a year and a half when I have, or you don't have two years.
02:22:28 ◼ ► know, not destitute and living on the street at that point. I'll hopefully be doing more
02:22:33 ◼ ► exercise. This is how much college will cost for Maggie. You got to put in the clip from
02:22:46 ◼ ► both of you have said, it is a pretty amazing feeling, particularly as someone who has always
02:22:56 ◼ ► fast for more than about 50 yards. It is extremely cool to get to the point that I need to get
02:23:15 ◼ ► And so like, I don't remember exactly when it was, but Aaron and I both needed, you know,
02:23:24 ◼ ► Well, and now I had those, I hated them cause like they're so big and clunky. They, they're
02:23:30 ◼ ► very difficult to, to manipulate. I love them. I love to be able to just, just dial in the
02:23:36 ◼ ► weights. They are kind of big and clunky, but like, I feel like that's part of the challenge
02:23:47 ◼ ► using non-adjustable ones, but then I had to, I had to go to the next size up like Casey's
02:23:54 ◼ ► Yeah. I mean one way or another, but the point is just that, you know, when you, when you're
02:23:57 ◼ ► ordering something that facilitates 40 pounds, be that because it's literally 40 pounds or
02:24:02 ◼ ► because it can, you know, add plates or what have you to get to 40 pounds, that's a cool
02:24:06 ◼ ► feeling. And then, you know, eventually we needed a 50 pound dumbbell and we're getting
02:24:20 ◼ ► a really awesome feeling. And it, in, in the same way, like you said, John, that you're
02:24:34 ◼ ► neither did I. I mean, John was the most athletic of the three of us probably, but like,
02:24:43 ◼ ► even when I, before I was working out, a good judge is doing crap around the house. Like,
02:24:52 ◼ ► of those errors, I had to carry my, uh, downstairs freezer up and down out of my basement. And
02:25:12 ◼ ► like I can do all the things I did. I could spend an entire day crawling around a crawl
02:25:21 ◼ ► day or like whatever. Uh, and I have no problem doing it. The only difference is, is that
02:25:25 ◼ ► if I'm not in my pre-working out times, I would be more sore the next day or these days
02:25:31 ◼ ► probably not sore at all. Um, but I can still do it all. I don't get out of breath doing
02:25:40 ◼ ► lot for that. So that needs to be showed up. I like bike riding too, but I feel like I'm
02:25:52 ◼ ► bike trail that feels like weird and wasteful. So aerobic activity is still a problem. A
02:25:57 ◼ ► stationary bike, so boring and I don't have room for one on my house. So it's, it is still
02:26:02 ◼ ► a thing that I'm working on. Uh, but you know, we'll revisit this topic when both my kids
02:26:09 ◼ ► the best answer to that is figure out something that you can get in your house. Like whether
02:26:14 ◼ ► it's a stationary bike or elliptical or a row or something, some kind of aerobic machine
02:26:19 ◼ ► that you can tolerate that can fit somewhere somehow in your house. Like in a child's bedroom
02:26:23 ◼ ► who no longer lives with you. Yeah. I mean, honestly, yeah, that's what a lot of people
02:26:27 ◼ ► do. Like there's a reason for that. Um, I think that is the ultimate, the answer. Cause
02:26:31 ◼ ► I, you know, generally like, yeah, weightlifting is great, but you're right. You should also
02:26:35 ◼ ► be doing some kind of aerobic something. Um, I mean, I'm walking the dog every day, but
02:26:39 ◼ ► you know what that's like. I mean, it's like test is technically aerobic. You're going to
02:26:46 ◼ ► ideally you'd have more than that, but yeah, I mean, and it's, I, I, I, I to Casey like
02:27:05 ◼ ► I remember every single one of them, uh, because that means a lot to me because I was always
02:27:15 ◼ ► held back in T ball for an extra year. Uh, you couldn't reach the T. Oh, that's brutal.
02:27:21 ◼ ► No, I just kept, uh, yeah. Anyway, so, but like, you know, to, to be, you know, growing
02:27:29 ◼ ► up that way for, and spending most of my life that way. And then, you know, at age 40, you
02:27:53 ◼ ► his freshman year of college. I encouraged him to do one workout with me and he had one
02:27:56 ◼ ► and he's just like, I'm never doing that again. He could do it. Like, it's not like he couldn't
02:28:00 ◼ ► do what I was doing, but I was at the point where I was about to increase the amount of
02:28:08 ◼ ► everything. So I think he's got college student bod, which is looks fit from the outside.
02:28:13 ◼ ► Again, he's got, you know, six pack abs, not an ounce of fat as an entire body, but he's