ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► We've entered lined pants season.

00:00:04 ◼   ► - Quarter eyes, you mean?

00:00:05 ◼   ► - No, what?

00:00:06 ◼   ► No.

00:00:07 ◼   ► - Pants have lines on them, they're quarter eyes, right?

00:00:09 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, that's pretty good, no.

00:00:12 ◼   ► - Oh, you mean line, like as in they have linings, yeah okay.

00:00:14 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:00:15 ◼   ► - Lined pants, it's called thermal underwear, Marco,

00:00:18 ◼   ► look into it.

00:00:18 ◼   ► Every pant can be a lined pant.

00:00:20 ◼   ► If you wear a thermal underwear under it,

00:00:21 ◼   ► I'm wearing thermal underwear under my pants right now.

00:00:23 ◼   ► - See the problem with, okay, that is a solution.

00:00:27 ◼   ► - It's modular.

00:00:28 ◼   ► - You gotta do what you gotta do, right?

00:00:29 ◼   ► That is a solution.

00:00:31 ◼   ► It's not my favorite solution because then you add

00:00:34 ◼   ► a bunchable layer gap, you know,

00:00:37 ◼   ► with properly lined jeans.

00:00:39 ◼   ► Like when you have, so I'm talking about like the jeans

00:00:41 ◼   ► that have like the flannel lining in them.

00:00:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, but they're floating away from your legs

00:00:44 ◼   ► and puffing out all your nice manufactured warm air

00:00:46 ◼   ► every time you take a step.

00:00:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe, but see the problem with, you know,

00:00:51 ◼   ► the separate underwear layer is that then they can move

00:00:55 ◼   ► independently from the pant leg which causes bunching.

00:00:58 ◼   ► - You just gotta get good ones that stay in place.

00:01:00 ◼   ► They're not moving around.

00:01:01 ◼   ► You gotta get good, nice, high quality thermal underwear

00:01:03 ◼   ► that does not move around or bunch up or like,

00:01:07 ◼   ► you're not getting good ones that are not fitting you right

00:01:08 ◼   ► if that's happening.

00:01:09 ◼   ► They're like tights, they're like leggings.

00:01:10 ◼   ► They shouldn't go anywhere.

00:01:12 ◼   ► - Also, I must admit, I do not like the process

00:01:14 ◼   ► of putting them on.

00:01:15 ◼   ► - You mean sliding them over the ends of your legs?

00:01:19 ◼   ► - They're too tight.

00:01:20 ◼   ► - Are you putting them over your head?

00:01:21 ◼   ► Is that what you're doing?

00:01:22 ◼   ► - No, they're too tight.

00:01:24 ◼   ► You gotta like, you know, even them out,

00:01:26 ◼   ► like make sure they're on.

00:01:27 ◼   ► Like, I'm just, I'm not a fan.

00:01:29 ◼   ► - You would not survive as a woman.

00:01:31 ◼   ► - Right, I was about to say, like, this is considered

00:01:34 ◼   ► the comfortable clothes for most women I know.

00:01:36 ◼   ► And here we are as men complaining and moaning about it,

00:01:39 ◼   ► which I'm not saying you're wrong, Marco,

00:01:41 ◼   ► but this is like--

00:01:42 ◼   ► - I'm saying you're wrong.

00:01:43 ◼   ► I don't think putting them on thermal underwear

00:01:44 ◼   ► is onerous at all.

00:01:46 ◼   ► It's just like a really big sock with no ends on it.

00:01:48 ◼   ► - On a wildly unrelated note, I am drunk with power right now

00:01:55 ◼   ► because I had an epiphany a day or two back.

00:01:59 ◼   ► And you two already know what I'm talking about,

00:02:01 ◼   ► but a day or two back, I had an epiphany.

00:02:03 ◼   ► And it occurred to me my,

00:02:05 ◼   ► and I can't believe I'm saying this, but you know,

00:02:07 ◼   ► here we are, my bespoke ultrafine 5K porch monitor,

00:02:10 ◼   ► because although we do have seasons

00:02:12 ◼   ► and we do have something that vaguely resembles winter,

00:02:14 ◼   ► and so because of that, it is cold outside,

00:02:17 ◼   ► by my definition.

00:02:18 ◼   ► I'm sure you two would laugh at it, but for me, it's cold.

00:02:20 ◼   ► And so it occurred to me this bespoke ultrafine 5K

00:02:25 ◼   ► that I would typically use on the porch

00:02:26 ◼   ► during the nice weather is just gonna be sitting

00:02:28 ◼   ► for the next several months.

00:02:30 ◼   ► What if I added it to my existing array of 5Ks?

00:02:34 ◼   ► - I don't understand how you got the starting point,

00:02:37 ◼   ► that it's just gonna be sitting.

00:02:38 ◼   ► Why would you think it would be sitting?

00:02:40 ◼   ► - Well, wait, am I gonna, I'm not gonna use it.

00:02:42 ◼   ► I mean, that's--

00:02:43 ◼   ► - How would you leave it on the porch?

00:02:44 ◼   ► It seems like the default would be

00:02:46 ◼   ► everything's coming in off the porch

00:02:48 ◼   ► and my monitor is going onto my computer desk

00:02:49 ◼   ► 'cause where else would it go?

00:02:51 ◼   ► - It was sitting on the floor of my office

00:02:52 ◼   ► 'cause I didn't know what else to do with it.

00:02:53 ◼   ► And then it occurred to me, wait a second.

00:02:56 ◼   ► - What do you do with this rectangle that lights up?

00:02:58 ◼   ► I have no idea.

00:02:59 ◼   ► There's a computer over here

00:03:00 ◼   ► and there's a light up rectangle over there.

00:03:02 ◼   ► Are they related in some way?

00:03:04 ◼   ► We'll never know.

00:03:05 ◼   ► - When you already have 10Ks of resolution,

00:03:08 ◼   ► do you really need 15?

00:03:09 ◼   ► Well, damn it, yes I do.

00:03:10 ◼   ► So now I have 15Ks of resolution

00:03:13 ◼   ► and I am very excited about it.

00:03:15 ◼   ► You two with your measly 6K a piece,

00:03:18 ◼   ► I have more than the two of you combined

00:03:20 ◼   ► and I think we're still talking about monitors.

00:03:21 ◼   ► So here we are.

00:03:22 ◼   ► - It's our contiguous space, it's all broken up.

00:03:25 ◼   ► - That's true.

00:03:26 ◼   ► I look full on grandma's boy right now, it's ridiculous.

00:03:29 ◼   ► And I'm loving every second of it.

00:03:30 ◼   ► And this is gonna be great.

00:03:31 ◼   ► And I told myself I wouldn't incept Marco, but here we go.

00:03:34 ◼   ► This is gonna be great until Marco listens

00:03:36 ◼   ► to this recording of my track and says to me,

00:03:38 ◼   ► oh my God, you've created an echo chamber, never again.

00:03:41 ◼   ► - We'll hear all the fans on those two LGs going.

00:03:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:03:44 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:03:45 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:03:46 ◼   ► - So yeah, so we'll see what happens.

00:03:48 ◼   ► But right now I am mad and drunk with power

00:03:50 ◼   ► and nobody can stop me.

00:03:52 ◼   ► - You can have three windows open now, Casey.

00:03:54 ◼   ► - Three entire windows.

00:03:57 ◼   ► Imagine that.

00:03:58 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, all right.

00:03:59 ◼   ► So we have a bunch of happy administrative

00:04:01 ◼   ► to take care of.

00:04:02 ◼   ► First and foremost, there is a new,

00:04:05 ◼   ► hot off the presses member special

00:04:08 ◼   ► that we released earlier today.

00:04:09 ◼   ► If you are not a member, you can go to ATP.fm/join.

00:04:13 ◼   ► You can join and become a member.

00:04:16 ◼   ► You can do that and you can get all of the member specials

00:04:19 ◼   ► we have ever recorded, not just the ones

00:04:21 ◼   ► that are forthcoming.

00:04:22 ◼   ► And you can get the bootleg, which is the,

00:04:24 ◼   ► immediately after we finish recording,

00:04:26 ◼   ► it's the version of the show that has all our mistakes

00:04:30 ◼   ► and all of me swearing and everything.

00:04:32 ◼   ► And you can also get an ad-free version of the show,

00:04:34 ◼   ► which is pretty great.

00:04:35 ◼   ► But in this particular instance,

00:04:37 ◼   ► what we're talking about is the ATP holiday special.

00:04:39 ◼   ► Marco, would you like to tell me

00:04:40 ◼   ► about what the holiday special is, please?

00:04:42 ◼   ► - Yes, so it turns out we tried to talk about

00:04:46 ◼   ► holiday traditions or things we're looking forward

00:04:49 ◼   ► to or our favorite things to do

00:04:50 ◼   ► or our least favorite things to do.

00:04:52 ◼   ► And Casey wanted this episode to be 30 minutes long.

00:04:56 ◼   ► - I was just trying to say that it didn't need

00:04:59 ◼   ► to be more than 30 minutes.

00:05:01 ◼   ► - You needed to go to bed, you was sweeping.

00:05:03 ◼   ► - I mean, that's every day.

00:05:05 ◼   ► That's every day when we start the show.

00:05:06 ◼   ► - Well, let's just say it lasted longer than 30 minutes

00:05:11 ◼   ► because it's us, of course.

00:05:13 ◼   ► And I thought it was pretty fun.

00:05:15 ◼   ► And so we had a fun holiday episode.

00:05:18 ◼   ► It is a light, fluffy, and fun thing that we made

00:05:21 ◼   ► and you can enjoy it.

00:05:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, that is available.

00:05:23 ◼   ► Please go ahead and join at ATP.fm/join

00:05:26 ◼   ► if you haven't already and have a listen.

00:05:28 ◼   ► It really was a lot of fun.

00:05:29 ◼   ► A lot of nostalgia, especially if you happen to be

00:05:31 ◼   ► an old dude or like listening to old dudes talk about toys

00:05:34 ◼   ► from 30 years ago, you're really gonna like it.

00:05:35 ◼   ► But there's more than just that.

00:05:37 ◼   ► Now, what if, Jon, imagine a scenario where,

00:05:41 ◼   ► because of whatever your life situation is,

00:05:43 ◼   ► you don't really have the spare cash to send our way,

00:05:46 ◼   ► which we get, that's totally fine.

00:05:48 ◼   ► No offense taken.

00:05:49 ◼   ► But you really wanted to listen to these holiday specials.

00:05:51 ◼   ► You shouldn't steal them.

00:05:54 ◼   ► But is there any other thing that you could do instead?

00:05:57 ◼   ► - This is the season of giving.

00:05:59 ◼   ► And in that spirit, we have done what programmers always do

00:06:03 ◼   ► at the end of the year, which is rush like mad

00:06:05 ◼   ► to get a feature out the door

00:06:07 ◼   ► before the holiday season is done.

00:06:10 ◼   ► People have asked for it and we have hastily implemented it.

00:06:14 ◼   ► - Jon has hastily implemented it.

00:06:16 ◼   ► - I gotta stop you there.

00:06:17 ◼   ► - We did not hastily implement anything.

00:06:18 ◼   ► - I didn't do anything for this.

00:06:20 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:06:22 ◼   ► - I lightly participated and Marco sat on the sidelines

00:06:24 ◼   ► and said, "Good work, fellas."

00:06:26 ◼   ► - I'm including you all in case it doesn't work.

00:06:29 ◼   ► - Fair enough, okay, I'll allow it.

00:06:30 ◼   ► - We have added gift memberships.

00:06:32 ◼   ► Go to ATP.fm/gift.

00:06:34 ◼   ► Many people have asked for this.

00:06:36 ◼   ► It is exactly what, it sounds like someone else

00:06:40 ◼   ► can buy you an ATP membership

00:06:42 ◼   ► rather than you buying it yourself,

00:06:43 ◼   ► or you can buy someone else a membership

00:06:45 ◼   ► so that they become a member.

00:06:47 ◼   ► Here is the, the timing of this obviously

00:06:51 ◼   ► is meant to get it out the door

00:06:53 ◼   ► before the holiday season is over.

00:06:55 ◼   ► That's why we're in such a big hurry.

00:06:56 ◼   ► If there's some feature that's missing from gift membership,

00:06:59 ◼   ► you can email us and we'll implement it,

00:07:01 ◼   ► but we thought it was really important

00:07:02 ◼   ► to get this out the door

00:07:03 ◼   ► before the holiday season is over.

00:07:05 ◼   ► And in particular, all the people who signed up

00:07:09 ◼   ► for membership to get the discount in the ATP store,

00:07:12 ◼   ► the ATP holiday store that came and went a while back,

00:07:15 ◼   ► all those people's memberships are now expiring.

00:07:18 ◼   ► 'Cause we always say, hey, just sign up for the store,

00:07:19 ◼   ► get the discount, buy your stuff, it's worth it,

00:07:21 ◼   ► and you can cancel, you know, it's really easy to do, right?

00:07:24 ◼   ► That's happening right now.

00:07:25 ◼   ► We are seeing people's memberships slowly disappear

00:07:27 ◼   ► because they're like, yeah,

00:07:28 ◼   ► I just became a member of the store,

00:07:29 ◼   ► I got my stuff and now it's over.

00:07:31 ◼   ► Here's what those people can do.

00:07:32 ◼   ► Ask somebody to buy you a membership

00:07:36 ◼   ► as a gift for the holidays.

00:07:37 ◼   ► Then the next time the store comes up,

00:07:39 ◼   ► you'll already have a membership

00:07:41 ◼   ► because they bought you a gift membership.

00:07:42 ◼   ► So you still don't have to actually

00:07:44 ◼   ► get the membership yourself.

00:07:45 ◼   ► It's a great way to save money.

00:07:46 ◼   ► All you gotta do is give somebody a URL.

00:07:48 ◼   ► They don't, all they need is this URL.

00:07:50 ◼   ► They can just go there and obviously a credit card

00:07:51 ◼   ► or something and buy you a membership.

00:07:53 ◼   ► You need to give them the URL, ATP.fm/gift.

00:07:56 ◼   ► The other thing they need to know is what email address

00:07:59 ◼   ► you signed up for your membership account.

00:08:01 ◼   ► If you haven't signed up for a membership account,

00:08:04 ◼   ► don't worry, they can just use any email address that's you.

00:08:06 ◼   ► If they enter the wrong email address, don't worry,

00:08:07 ◼   ► you can change it later.

00:08:08 ◼   ► But for everything to go seamlessly,

00:08:10 ◼   ► it would be good if they knew what email address

00:08:13 ◼   ► you would like to use at the website.

00:08:15 ◼   ► The final thing I'll add is the way these work,

00:08:18 ◼   ► again, because of time constraints,

00:08:19 ◼   ► is the person who buys the gift membership for you,

00:08:21 ◼   ► after they successfully buy it,

00:08:23 ◼   ► they'll be presented with a screen that says,

00:08:24 ◼   ► here's what the person has to do to redeem their membership.

00:08:26 ◼   ► And there's a code you can enter.

00:08:28 ◼   ► There's also a link that you can go to,

00:08:30 ◼   ► but here's the most important part.

00:08:32 ◼   ► And it's in red, bold, italic text on the page

00:08:35 ◼   ► that they land on after they buy it.

00:08:37 ◼   ► They have to give you that link,

00:08:40 ◼   ► that redemption code, whatever.

00:08:42 ◼   ► It's not gonna get to you any other way.

00:08:44 ◼   ► How can they give it to you?

00:08:45 ◼   ► They could write it down on a piece of paper,

00:08:46 ◼   ► they could print it, they could send it to you in a message,

00:08:48 ◼   ► they can make a nice little card.

00:08:50 ◼   ► But the point is, they have to give you

00:08:52 ◼   ► that redemption code, that link, somehow, some way.

00:08:56 ◼   ► Why don't we make a nice card and email it to you?

00:08:58 ◼   ► Time constraints, we apologize.

00:09:00 ◼   ► But that is the system, somewhat manual,

00:09:02 ◼   ► but I can attest that it actually works.

00:09:05 ◼   ► Someone actually has already purchased and redeemed

00:09:07 ◼   ► a gift membership, so the system works.

00:09:09 ◼   ► Please go to ATP.fm/gift,

00:09:11 ◼   ► or rather, please send that URL to people in your life

00:09:13 ◼   ► who you would like to buy you a gift membership.

00:09:16 ◼   ► And we'll be back here crossing our fingers

00:09:17 ◼   ► and hoping this whole thing works.

00:09:19 ◼   ► - All right, well, a couple of things

00:09:20 ◼   ► I think we need to point out.

00:09:21 ◼   ► First of all, what happens if I am an active

00:09:24 ◼   ► and paid member, but I'd like a little bit

00:09:28 ◼   ► of quote-unquote free membership?

00:09:29 ◼   ► Can I ask for a gift of ATP membership,

00:09:31 ◼   ► even if I'm already a paying member?

00:09:33 ◼   ► - You sure can.

00:09:34 ◼   ► If you get a gift, and by the way,

00:09:36 ◼   ► the gift codes, when you redeem them,

00:09:38 ◼   ► they start immediately.

00:09:39 ◼   ► But if you already have a membership,

00:09:40 ◼   ► all it does is shove your membership down into the future.

00:09:43 ◼   ► So the gift membership begins immediately,

00:09:45 ◼   ► and your remaining membership that you paid for,

00:09:47 ◼   ► that will just resume once the gift membership is done.

00:09:49 ◼   ► And in fact, if you get multiple gift memberships,

00:09:51 ◼   ► so many people wanna get you gift memberships,

00:09:53 ◼   ► you get five of them.

00:09:55 ◼   ► Redeem all five, they'll just stack one after the other.

00:09:57 ◼   ► The first one you redeem will start immediately,

00:09:59 ◼   ► the second one you redeem will just queue it up

00:10:00 ◼   ► right behind it, the third one will be

00:10:01 ◼   ► queued up right behind it.

00:10:03 ◼   ► There's no limit to the amount of gift memberships

00:10:05 ◼   ► people can buy you, and again, as you redeem them,

00:10:08 ◼   ► if you redeem multiple memberships, they will be queued up.

00:10:10 ◼   ► And if you love it so much,

00:10:12 ◼   ► and your gift membership is about to run out,

00:10:14 ◼   ► you can subscribe for real, and your real membership

00:10:16 ◼   ► will start as soon as your last gift membership expires.

00:10:19 ◼   ► So we hope all this works as described,

00:10:22 ◼   ► but the whole point is,

00:10:24 ◼   ► you can give the gift of ATP membership.

00:10:25 ◼   ► You can receive the gift of ATP membership.

00:10:28 ◼   ► 'Tis the season.

00:10:29 ◼   ► - Additionally, just another point of order here.

00:10:33 ◼   ► Let's suppose I bought a gift membership for you, John,

00:10:37 ◼   ► but I screwed up your email address,

00:10:39 ◼   ► or you would prefer a different email address.

00:10:40 ◼   ► What can I do about that?

00:10:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, the way the gift memberships work

00:10:43 ◼   ► is on your member page,

00:10:44 ◼   ► either the page for the person who purchased it,

00:10:46 ◼   ► or the page for the person who received it,

00:10:47 ◼   ► you'll see all the gift memberships

00:10:49 ◼   ► that you've dealt with in any way.

00:10:50 ◼   ► So if you were the sender,

00:10:51 ◼   ► you'll see all the ones that you sent,

00:10:53 ◼   ► you'll see redemption instructions underneath there,

00:10:55 ◼   ► and you'll also be able to change the address

00:10:57 ◼   ► that it sent to.

00:10:58 ◼   ► That's another constraint here.

00:11:00 ◼   ► You can only redeem the gift membership

00:11:01 ◼   ► if it was sent to you specifically,

00:11:03 ◼   ► your specific email address.

00:11:05 ◼   ► So if you're like, oh, I don't actually use

00:11:06 ◼   ► that email address at ATP.fm,

00:11:07 ◼   ► I use a different email address.

00:11:08 ◼   ► Just tell the sender,

00:11:09 ◼   ► they can go to their member page at ATP.fm,

00:11:12 ◼   ► and then change the email address associated with the code,

00:11:15 ◼   ► and then you'll be able to redeem it.

00:11:16 ◼   ► So it's a pretty flexible system.

00:11:18 ◼   ► If you have any problems with it,

00:11:19 ◼   ► membership@ATP.fm, send us an email, we'll fix it,

00:11:21 ◼   ► but we think it should be all self-service,

00:11:23 ◼   ► including the delivery part.

00:11:25 ◼   ► Remember, make a nice card on construction paper,

00:11:27 ◼   ► use glitter, just put that redemption code right in there.

00:11:29 ◼   ► (John laughs)

00:11:31 ◼   ► - Well, thank you, John, genuinely.

00:11:32 ◼   ► Thank you, John, for all of your hard work.

00:11:34 ◼   ► You really did quite a lot in not a lot of time.

00:11:36 ◼   ► I will speak for myself.

00:11:38 ◼   ► I am loving the no day job, Syracuse,

00:11:41 ◼   ► because you are just hammering through all the ATP to-do's

00:11:45 ◼   ► that Marco and I have become exceptionally good

00:11:48 ◼   ► at kicking that can right down the road,

00:11:50 ◼   ► and you have been just knocking them out left and right.

00:11:51 ◼   ► So my public and heartfelt thanks to you, John,

00:11:54 ◼   ► for quitting your job.

00:11:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, me too.

00:11:57 ◼   ► For all these years, because John had a day job

00:12:00 ◼   ► that was not anything we could really ever see

00:12:03 ◼   ► in our side of the world, we didn't really ever know,

00:12:06 ◼   ► is John, how much of a programmer is John?

00:12:10 ◼   ► We knew he was very smart.

00:12:12 ◼   ► We knew he knew a lot about programming.

00:12:14 ◼   ► We knew--

00:12:14 ◼   ► - I see all my Perl modules.

00:12:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, we knew he wrote Perl, but who cares about that?

00:12:18 ◼   ► So this--

00:12:19 ◼   ► - You should see all the Perl I wrote at my day job,

00:12:21 ◼   ► just thousands upon thousands upon thousands

00:12:24 ◼   ► of lines of it.

00:12:25 ◼   ► - Well, and see, now we can actually see

00:12:27 ◼   ► what the fully deployed John is capable of.

00:12:31 ◼   ► It's pretty impressive.

00:12:32 ◼   ► GIF memberships, this is, John has had this

00:12:35 ◼   ► on the request list for our CMS for almost the entire time

00:12:38 ◼   ► we've had a CMS, and I was always very reluctant to do it,

00:12:43 ◼   ► 'cause we would start talking like,

00:12:44 ◼   ► okay, well, how would this work?

00:12:46 ◼   ► There's so many little details that you have to figure out

00:12:49 ◼   ► and account for and build.

00:12:51 ◼   ► There's a lot to make this work and work well

00:12:54 ◼   ► and not have weird side effects or weird issues.

00:12:56 ◼   ► It's like, we sometimes will run ads on our show

00:13:00 ◼   ► for platforms that do this kind of thing for you,

00:13:02 ◼   ► and there is no better advertisement for platforms

00:13:05 ◼   ► that do this for you than hearing how much work it takes us

00:13:07 ◼   ► to try to do it ourselves.

00:13:09 ◼   ► And the amount of work and the size of the diff

00:13:14 ◼   ► on the code base for this was so big.

00:13:18 ◼   ► Like, again, it of course vindicates,

00:13:22 ◼   ► I was right to not do it all this time.

00:13:24 ◼   ► - I'm not sure that's the lesson

00:13:26 ◼   ► you should be taking from this.

00:13:28 ◼   ► - But yeah, also, yeah, thanks, John.

00:13:31 ◼   ► It's pretty great that you're doing this now,

00:13:33 ◼   ► and both that it is done and that we didn't have to do it.

00:13:38 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:13:39 ◼   ► - Indeed.

00:13:40 ◼   ► The PR, it was 2,800 lines added, 135 removed.

00:13:44 ◼   ► So not a small PR by any stretch of the imagination.

00:13:48 ◼   ► It's also been hilarious,

00:13:49 ◼   ► although I didn't hear much of it this time,

00:13:50 ◼   ► but it's been hilarious seeing Marco kind of react

00:13:52 ◼   ► to us doing quote-unquote real work in GitHub,

00:13:55 ◼   ► doing pull requests and issues and things like that.

00:13:58 ◼   ► And I feel like Marco's just sitting back there

00:14:00 ◼   ► like Michael Jackson in "Thriller" eating his popcorn,

00:14:03 ◼   ► going, "Wow, that's a lot of work."

00:14:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, watching me enjoy that PHP, just loving it.

00:14:07 ◼   ► - I mean, that part is very fun, I gotta be honest.

00:14:10 ◼   ► But yeah, again, still moving.

00:14:13 ◼   ► So I wish I had any time to sit back and eat popcorn

00:14:16 ◼   ► at any time for anything ever right now,

00:14:18 ◼   ► but I'm really very thankful

00:14:20 ◼   ► that I'm not having any of this put on my plate.

00:14:22 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:14:23 ◼   ► - All right, let's do some follow-up.

00:14:25 ◼   ► Thank you, John.

00:14:26 ◼   ► That's your gift to Marco and me, is doing all this.

00:14:28 ◼   ► So thank you, John.

00:14:30 ◼   ► Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah.

00:14:31 ◼   ► All right, so let's do some follow-up.

00:14:33 ◼   ► Let's talk about John's Blue Ocean.

00:14:35 ◼   ► You have some footnotes here, John.

00:14:37 ◼   ► How do we wanna handle this?

00:14:38 ◼   ► - This was a footnote in the actual article

00:14:40 ◼   ► from the day it was published,

00:14:42 ◼   ► but I should have made it more prominent

00:14:43 ◼   ► because I forgot about it too when we talked about it.

00:14:45 ◼   ► Here is the footnote.

00:14:46 ◼   ► This is basically the exact same URL

00:14:48 ◼   ► that I linked to in the footnote that many people sent us.

00:14:50 ◼   ► And it is a story from June 24th, 2023

00:14:53 ◼   ► from "The Verge" that talks about European Parliament

00:14:57 ◼   ► voting on regulation that would,

00:14:58 ◼   ► among other things, require smartphone manufacturers

00:15:01 ◼   ► to make their devices' batteries

00:15:02 ◼   ► more easily user-replaceable.

00:15:04 ◼   ► And that was the Blue Ocean discussion,

00:15:05 ◼   ► my idea that for replaceable batteries and Apple things,

00:15:08 ◼   ► and everyone was saying,

00:15:09 ◼   ► "Hey, EU's gonna make it."

00:15:10 ◼   ► Apple do it.

00:15:11 ◼   ► Of course, as with all things related to the EU

00:15:13 ◼   ► and their various regulations and things that they vote on,

00:15:16 ◼   ► takes a while to get going,

00:15:17 ◼   ► and you're not quite sure how it's going to work exactly.

00:15:20 ◼   ► Jason Eccles says that Apple says

00:15:23 ◼   ► it already complies with this law.

00:15:24 ◼   ► Of course, Apple would say that.

00:15:26 ◼   ► You can buy an iPhone today and change the battery.

00:15:28 ◼   ► They already have user-serviceable batteries.

00:15:31 ◼   ► They're even loaning you the tools

00:15:32 ◼   ► so you don't need to buy them.

00:15:34 ◼   ► And they've even made the removal of the back cover

00:15:35 ◼   ► on the phones easier for two years in a row.

00:15:38 ◼   ► So that is exactly the position I would imagine

00:15:40 ◼   ► Apple would take, but here's some more from "The Verge."

00:15:43 ◼   ► According to a draft version of the regulation

00:15:45 ◼   ► on the EU's website,

00:15:46 ◼   ► the batteries should be replaceable, quote,

00:15:48 ◼   ► "With no tool or a tool or set of tools

00:15:51 ◼   ► "that is supplied with the product or spare part

00:15:53 ◼   ► "or basic tools."

00:15:55 ◼   ► I mean, that's a lot of things.

00:15:57 ◼   ► It either has to be replaceable with no tools

00:15:59 ◼   ► or a tool or set of tools that is supplied

00:16:02 ◼   ► with the product or spare part.

00:16:03 ◼   ► I mean, I guess Apple complies with that

00:16:05 ◼   ► 'cause when they sell you the part,

00:16:07 ◼   ► they rent you the tools or basic tools.

00:16:10 ◼   ► Anyway, it also says that spare parts should be available

00:16:12 ◼   ► for up to seven years after a phone's release

00:16:14 ◼   ► and perhaps most importantly,

00:16:15 ◼   ► the process for replacement shall be able

00:16:17 ◼   ► to be carried out by a layman.

00:16:19 ◼   ► We'll see how this ends up working.

00:16:21 ◼   ► - I look forward to some court case in the future

00:16:24 ◼   ► where Apple tries to argue that first of all,

00:16:26 ◼   ► that some kind of hex torque security bolt

00:16:29 ◼   ► is a common basic tool and what defines a layman exactly?

00:16:34 ◼   ► - Oh, hex tool, forget it.

00:16:36 ◼   ► These things are glued together.

00:16:37 ◼   ► There's always some process where you heat things up

00:16:39 ◼   ► and pry things apart and I would,

00:16:41 ◼   ► I don't know what the regulation's actually going to be,

00:16:45 ◼   ► when it's going to take effect,

00:16:47 ◼   ► how much of this language will still be in it,

00:16:49 ◼   ► but it's out there lurking potentially.

00:16:52 ◼   ► - I mean, and Apple's not the only one here.

00:16:54 ◼   ► Every big smartphone maker has essentially sealed in

00:16:58 ◼   ► batteries that are annoying and difficult to replace.

00:17:03 ◼   ► Forget about doing with no tools.

00:17:05 ◼   ► With tools that are supplied with the product,

00:17:08 ◼   ► I mean, that seems like it would cover anything.

00:17:10 ◼   ► It's like now, every time you buy, you know,

00:17:13 ◼   ► oh, I guess supply with the product or spare parts.

00:17:16 ◼   ► So if you buy the battery,

00:17:18 ◼   ► the only way you can get the replacement batteries,

00:17:19 ◼   ► it comes with a gigantic set of tools in Pelican cases.

00:17:22 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, we're compliant with the, I don't know.

00:17:24 ◼   ► I don't know what they're trying to do with this thing.

00:17:26 ◼   ► Are they trying to make it so people's phones last longer?

00:17:27 ◼   ► Are they trying to make it so that you can actually

00:17:30 ◼   ► have user replaceable batteries?

00:17:31 ◼   ► We'll see, but that's out there,

00:17:34 ◼   ► just like the USB-C thing was.

00:17:35 ◼   ► We talked about it for years and it eventually happened,

00:17:38 ◼   ► so maybe this one will too.

00:17:39 ◼   ► - All right, let's talk about the beeper battle.

00:17:43 ◼   ► So last, where did we leave this last?

00:17:45 ◼   ► It was working last we spoke about it, right?

00:17:47 ◼   ► Is that correct?

00:17:48 ◼   ► - Yes, and we were saying like, hey,

00:17:50 ◼   ► maybe don't get too used to this working for very long.

00:17:53 ◼   ► - Exactly, so Apple has, since that time,

00:17:57 ◼   ► Apple cut it off and then apparently beeper

00:18:01 ◼   ► has come up with some workarounds.

00:18:03 ◼   ► I'll get into a little bit of details here.

00:18:05 ◼   ► Come up with some workarounds to get it back asterisk.

00:18:08 ◼   ► And that's the most recent as we record

00:18:11 ◼   ► on Wednesday night as far as we know.

00:18:12 ◼   ► So this all started with Apple issuing a statement.

00:18:15 ◼   ► Apple says, at Apple, we build our products and services

00:18:18 ◼   ► with industry leading privacy and security technologies

00:18:20 ◼   ► designed to give users control of their data

00:18:22 ◼   ► and keep personal information safe.

00:18:24 ◼   ► We took steps to protect our users by blocking techniques

00:18:28 ◼   ► that exploit fake credentials

00:18:29 ◼   ► in order to gain access to iMessage.

00:18:30 ◼   ► These techniques pose significant risks

00:18:32 ◼   ► to user security and privacy,

00:18:34 ◼   ► including the potential for metadata exposure

00:18:36 ◼   ► and enabling unwanted messages, spam, and phishing attacks.

00:18:38 ◼   ► We will continue to make updates in the future

00:18:40 ◼   ► to protect our users.

00:18:41 ◼   ► - I don't know why you moaned about the pose significant

00:18:43 ◼   ► risks to security and privacy,

00:18:45 ◼   ► because I think that's pretty much 100% true, right?

00:18:49 ◼   ► Like the whole idea of the iMessage ecosystem

00:18:52 ◼   ► is they have clients and servers and Apple writes them both.

00:18:54 ◼   ► So Apple knows that they're not secretly taking your messages

00:18:57 ◼   ► in plain text and sending them off to a server somewhere,

00:18:59 ◼   ► because Apple could do that.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Like if it's encrypted, Apple can get your messages.

00:19:03 ◼   ► Well, they could, because they display them on the screen.

00:19:05 ◼   ► Like they write the client application.

00:19:07 ◼   ► But Apple knows they're not doing that

00:19:09 ◼   ► because they're Apple and they control all the ends.

00:19:11 ◼   ► Once there's a third party client doing this,

00:19:14 ◼   ► of course, at some point, the third party client

00:19:15 ◼   ► has to decrypt and decode the messages

00:19:18 ◼   ► and display them on people's screens.

00:19:19 ◼   ► And at that point, they could send them off

00:19:21 ◼   ► to a server somewhere and save them.

00:19:22 ◼   ► And you know, like, and Apple doesn't have any control

00:19:25 ◼   ► over those third parties.

00:19:26 ◼   ► So I think it does pose a significant risk

00:19:28 ◼   ► to the security and privacy of everyone who's on the network

00:19:31 ◼   ► because if you can't tell that you're messaging somebody

00:19:33 ◼   ► who's using a third party client,

00:19:34 ◼   ► that third party client could be doing anything

00:19:36 ◼   ► and Apple has no idea what it's doing.

00:19:38 ◼   ► Now, is Bieber doing that?

00:19:39 ◼   ► No, I'm sure it's not.

00:19:40 ◼   ► Like that's not their business,

00:19:41 ◼   ► not stealing all your messages.

00:19:43 ◼   ► But Apple doesn't know that.

00:19:44 ◼   ► So when you have a system like iMessage and their servers,

00:19:48 ◼   ► where the security, where Apple can voucher the security

00:19:50 ◼   ► because they make the client and the server

00:19:52 ◼   ► and they don't allow third party clients,

00:19:54 ◼   ► that's kind of an essential part of the system.

00:19:56 ◼   ► And now is that, you know,

00:19:57 ◼   ► were they really concerned about people's security?

00:19:59 ◼   ► Is that the main reason they did this?

00:20:00 ◼   ► No, maybe not.

00:20:02 ◼   ► But it is definitely a reason

00:20:03 ◼   ► and I think it's a valid reason.

00:20:06 ◼   ► - All right, that's fair enough.

00:20:07 ◼   ► - There's multiple battles going on here.

00:20:08 ◼   ► You know, one is like the technical battle

00:20:11 ◼   ► between Bieber and Apple and maybe they'll try

00:20:13 ◼   ► to play some cat and mouse game for a little bit longer,

00:20:15 ◼   ► maybe not.

00:20:17 ◼   ► Also there's the PR battle and I think this is,

00:20:20 ◼   ► I think Apple's trying to squash this

00:20:22 ◼   ► and move on as quickly as possible.

00:20:23 ◼   ► Beeper is, I think, trying to prolong the PR battle

00:20:28 ◼   ► or inflame it as much as possible

00:20:30 ◼   ► because at the end of the day,

00:20:32 ◼   ► while I applaud this level of like reverse engineering

00:20:36 ◼   ► and hacking because I think it's kind of cool as a nerd,

00:20:40 ◼   ► they have no right to do this.

00:20:42 ◼   ► Like there is, I don't think it's a good thing

00:20:45 ◼   ► for anybody, you know, the world or Apple or Beeper

00:20:50 ◼   ► for them to keep trying to fight this fight

00:20:54 ◼   ► and I don't think it's a great experience

00:20:56 ◼   ► for their customers to have to try

00:20:57 ◼   ► to ride this rollercoaster with them.

00:20:59 ◼   ► I think the reality is what this is very clearly

00:21:03 ◼   ► is, you know, not only, you know, some kind of,

00:21:06 ◼   ► you can call it a hack maybe, you know,

00:21:08 ◼   ► that word has grown very vague over time

00:21:11 ◼   ► but I would also call it theft of services.

00:21:13 ◼   ► They're building a commercial business

00:21:16 ◼   ► on stealing access to Apple's iMessage servers

00:21:20 ◼   ► and service in an unauthorized way.

00:21:23 ◼   ► - That's a great business plan.

00:21:23 ◼   ► Our business plan is we're not gonna run servers,

00:21:26 ◼   ► we're gonna use somebody else's servers.

00:21:27 ◼   ► Oh, so they're letting you use their servers?

00:21:28 ◼   ► No, they're not letting us.

00:21:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, like--

00:21:30 ◼   ► - But they're gonna be a foundational part of our business

00:21:32 ◼   ► so we're gonna use their servers without any permission

00:21:35 ◼   ► and hope that we don't get caught

00:21:37 ◼   ► or they can't stop us.

00:21:38 ◼   ► Write that into your business plan.

00:21:39 ◼   ► See how much funding you get.

00:21:41 ◼   ► And by the way, who is the company?

00:21:42 ◼   ► Oh, it's the richest company in the world.

00:21:43 ◼   ► Oh, that'll work out great.

00:21:44 ◼   ► - And they really don't want you to be doing this.

00:21:46 ◼   ► So like, it's not like iMessage just some like,

00:21:49 ◼   ► you know, side thing for Apple they don't care about.

00:21:51 ◼   ► No, it's pretty important.

00:21:52 ◼   ► It's a very important aspect

00:21:54 ◼   ► of their most important product.

00:21:55 ◼   ► - And if you didn't wanna be noticed,

00:21:56 ◼   ► you can't like have publicity in marketing.

00:21:58 ◼   ► Like maybe Apple wouldn't notice.

00:21:59 ◼   ► If it was just that high school student

00:22:01 ◼   ► making his own client and running it against iMessage

00:22:04 ◼   ► and impressing all his friends with his blue bubbles,

00:22:05 ◼   ► Apple probably never would have noticed.

00:22:06 ◼   ► But if it's a business, they'll notice.

00:22:08 ◼   ► - That's the thing.

00:22:09 ◼   ► You know, so they can keep playing

00:22:11 ◼   ► the technical cat and mouse game.

00:22:13 ◼   ► Ultimately, I would imagine they will have

00:22:15 ◼   ► a legal battle on their hands

00:22:16 ◼   ► and they will lose that one promptly and severely.

00:22:20 ◼   ► And so I can't imagine this is going to end well

00:22:24 ◼   ► for Beeper or anybody who relies on this.

00:22:27 ◼   ► I said last time, this is, you know,

00:22:29 ◼   ► it kinda like the Hackintosh,

00:22:30 ◼   ► like you know, you shouldn't,

00:22:31 ◼   ► as a customer, I wouldn't advise that you assume

00:22:34 ◼   ► this will work at all in the future.

00:22:36 ◼   ► I wouldn't make any hardware buying decisions based on this.

00:22:38 ◼   ► So for instance, if you were not buying an Android phone

00:22:42 ◼   ► because you wanted iMessage and this comes out

00:22:45 ◼   ► and you're like great, now I can buy an Android phone?

00:22:46 ◼   ► Like I would maybe not count on that being a thing.

00:22:49 ◼   ► Like if you wanna, if you already have an Android phone,

00:22:52 ◼   ► fine, if you wanna buy an Android phone anyway

00:22:54 ◼   ► for other experimentation, fine.

00:22:55 ◼   ► Or if you wanna convert to it for other reasons, fine.

00:22:58 ◼   ► But don't make any decisions based on this working

00:23:00 ◼   ► 'cause it already is semi-broken

00:23:02 ◼   ► and I think will be promptly shut down by Apple legal

00:23:07 ◼   ► pretty soon if nothing else.

00:23:08 ◼   ► Because you know, again, like when you're building

00:23:11 ◼   ► a Hackintosh or you know, unlocking your DVD player

00:23:14 ◼   ► or whatever, that's a little bit different

00:23:16 ◼   ► because you are like gaining access to a device

00:23:19 ◼   ► that you already bought that kinda doesn't leave your home.

00:23:23 ◼   ► So who cares?

00:23:24 ◼   ► But in this case, they are literally like

00:23:27 ◼   ► hacking Apple's service.

00:23:29 ◼   ► They're running this service.

00:23:31 ◼   ► They are literally hacking into Apple's service

00:23:33 ◼   ► and stealing use of it and then making

00:23:35 ◼   ► a commercial product out of that.

00:23:36 ◼   ► Like that is beyond any reasonable line

00:23:39 ◼   ► and whatever you think about iMessage and Lockin

00:23:43 ◼   ► and anything else, frankly, I don't think it's that big

00:23:45 ◼   ► of a deal because you know, if you look around the world,

00:23:47 ◼   ► iMessage is pretty big in the US.

00:23:49 ◼   ► It's not very big outside of the US

00:23:52 ◼   ► because the rest of the world has discovered things

00:23:54 ◼   ► like WhatsApp and Line and all the other different chat apps

00:23:59 ◼   ► that everyone uses in different places.

00:24:01 ◼   ► WeChat, you know, all the big ones that are

00:24:04 ◼   ► in the rest of the world outside of the US,

00:24:06 ◼   ► iMessage doesn't really have that much of a monopoly there.

00:24:08 ◼   ► If anything, I think any market for this

00:24:11 ◼   ► has probably already come and gone

00:24:13 ◼   ► because anybody who has mixed chat groups

00:24:15 ◼   ► or uses an Android with, you know,

00:24:18 ◼   ► outside of the US or whatever,

00:24:19 ◼   ► those groups are all using other apps

00:24:21 ◼   ► for their chat platforms.

00:24:23 ◼   ► If anything, this shows maybe Apple should have made

00:24:26 ◼   ► iMessage for Android a long time ago

00:24:28 ◼   ► but today it's almost moot.

00:24:29 ◼   ► You know, I don't think this is gonna change much

00:24:31 ◼   ► of anything but regardless, Beeper, it's a cool hack

00:24:35 ◼   ► that the 16 year old kid who figured out

00:24:37 ◼   ► this reverse engineering, it's very technically impressive

00:24:41 ◼   ► but this is not a business and the sooner this stops,

00:24:45 ◼   ► the better it'll be, honestly, for Beeper

00:24:47 ◼   ► 'cause it's only gonna get worse from here.

00:24:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, Beeper re-enabled it and they had a reply

00:24:53 ◼   ► to Apple's statement that we'll link in the show notes

00:24:56 ◼   ► where they were very indignant and they're like,

00:24:57 ◼   ► what is Apple saying about security?

00:24:58 ◼   ► We made it more secure because previously people

00:25:00 ◼   ► were sending SMS and all sorts of, you know,

00:25:02 ◼   ► ridiculous statements like that where it's like,

00:25:04 ◼   ► look, if people on Android wanna talk to people

00:25:06 ◼   ► on iPhones with end-to-end security,

00:25:08 ◼   ► they can just use WhatsApp.

00:25:09 ◼   ► Like, it's not like you're the only possible option here

00:25:12 ◼   ► but anyway, they eventually get down to like

00:25:13 ◼   ► the bargaining stage, like, look, if Apple's worried

00:25:15 ◼   ► about security and privacy, we'll give them the source code

00:25:18 ◼   ► so they can see if it's secure themselves

00:25:20 ◼   ► and we'll even have a third party security team look at it

00:25:23 ◼   ► and if they really want us to, we'll put a pager emoji

00:25:25 ◼   ► next to all of our messages so they'll know messages

00:25:27 ◼   ► are coming from us and it's like, they don't wanna vet

00:25:30 ◼   ► your source code, they don't want you to use their network

00:25:32 ◼   ► at all, they didn't invite you, they didn't tell you

00:25:34 ◼   ► you can use their servers, like, if they're worried

00:25:36 ◼   ► about security here, you look at our source code.

00:25:38 ◼   ► What are you, trying to give them homework?

00:25:40 ◼   ► They just don't want you to use their servers.

00:25:41 ◼   ► Like, this kind of bargaining, like, saying, look,

00:25:44 ◼   ► we're doing everything we can, we're bending over backwards,

00:25:46 ◼   ► I don't see what Apple's problem is.

00:25:47 ◼   ► The problem is they never invited you to use their servers.

00:25:50 ◼   ► It's not a public service, it doesn't have a public API,

00:25:52 ◼   ► it is not a platform, do you understand, you're not allowed

00:25:56 ◼   ► to use it and they don't, we'll give them our source code.

00:25:59 ◼   ► How about you just go out of business?

00:26:01 ◼   ► Like, if you're willing to, like, you know, do whatever

00:26:03 ◼   ► Apple wants you to do, Apple wants you just to go away.

00:26:04 ◼   ► - You can't sit with us.

00:26:06 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, like, if Apple wanted iMessage on Android,

00:26:09 ◼   ► they would just make it themselves, they don't need

00:26:12 ◼   ► Beeper to do this for them.

00:26:13 ◼   ► - Well, here's the thing, like, if you wanted to go

00:26:15 ◼   ► this route, you should've gone to Apple and said, hey,

00:26:17 ◼   ► we think you should open up iMessage and we think we should

00:26:19 ◼   ► be the contractor to build the third party client

00:26:22 ◼   ► for Android, and if Apple said, okay, then they would have

00:26:23 ◼   ► a contract and you would do that and that, you know,

00:26:25 ◼   ► would Apple agree to that, probably not, they'd probably

00:26:27 ◼   ► try to do it themselves and do a bad job, but whatever,

00:26:29 ◼   ► that's the Apple way for, you know, apps that are on other

00:26:31 ◼   ► platforms, see QuickTime and Safari for Windows.

00:26:34 ◼   ► It's like, but that didn't happen.

00:26:36 ◼   ► Apple doesn't appear to want that.

00:26:38 ◼   ► If you want that to happen, you need to convince Apple

00:26:41 ◼   ► because it's their service, I don't understand it, so.

00:26:43 ◼   ► - And you won't convince them.

00:26:45 ◼   ► - It's so, I mean, maybe you would, maybe you can convince

00:26:47 ◼   ► them, I don't know, like, maybe Apple's gonna decide

00:26:49 ◼   ► to do it on their own, but that's not what's happening here.

00:26:51 ◼   ► Instead, it's just, it's really like, the high school

00:26:53 ◼   ► student is a great sort of avatar for this because it is

00:26:56 ◼   ► kind of the level of like, the, you know, sort of

00:26:58 ◼   ► indignant child saying, what do you want from me?

00:27:00 ◼   ► I just, I don't know why you won't let me use your servers

00:27:02 ◼   ► and charge people for it, so mean.

00:27:05 ◼   ► Here, look at my source code, it's fine, look, we're not

00:27:07 ◼   ► doing, it's everything, ugh, anyway, not a fan of Bieber.

00:27:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm trying to picture like, how I would react

00:27:12 ◼   ► if someone did this to Overcast, like if someone

00:27:14 ◼   ► reverse engineered the Overcast API and made an Android app

00:27:17 ◼   ► and started charging money for it.

00:27:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, they were making Android podcast client,

00:27:21 ◼   ► they didn't want to run their servers, so I just used

00:27:23 ◼   ► Marco's servers.

00:27:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, and just advertise, oh yeah, this is Overcast now,

00:27:26 ◼   ► you're using Overcast right here.

00:27:27 ◼   ► - And they would charge a subscription for their app.

00:27:30 ◼   ► - Right, that's probably more expensive than mine,

00:27:32 ◼   ► and then they would come to me.

00:27:33 ◼   ► - And they would say, Marco, if you're worried about it,

00:27:34 ◼   ► we'll send you the source code to our app,

00:27:36 ◼   ► and then you'll know that it's okay.

00:27:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can just audit that on my own time somehow

00:27:39 ◼   ► whenever I feel like it.

00:27:40 ◼   ► - And let you continue to make money while using my

00:27:42 ◼   ► server backend that you're not paying for.

00:27:44 ◼   ► - And I have no control over what they do with my app

00:27:46 ◼   ► or, you know, the service, or yeah, that's, like,

00:27:48 ◼   ► I would shut that down so quickly, like,

00:27:51 ◼   ► and I wouldn't care if I burned all my old clients.

00:27:53 ◼   ► I would still, I would shut it down immediately,

00:27:56 ◼   ► and I would not feel bad even for a second.

00:27:59 ◼   ► And so I cannot fault Apple for this at all.

00:28:02 ◼   ► Apple is 100% in the right, it is their prerogative

00:28:05 ◼   ► to do whatever they want with the service,

00:28:07 ◼   ► and the idea of having some other app interact

00:28:10 ◼   ► with your servers that you don't control,

00:28:12 ◼   ► where the, as John mentioned at first,

00:28:14 ◼   ► like, the security of the entire thing is part of your

00:28:19 ◼   ► main product, it's part of the integrity,

00:28:21 ◼   ► it's part of the selling point.

00:28:22 ◼   ► - The most used app in iOS, at least in the US anyway.

00:28:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, like, I would never in a million years allow

00:28:29 ◼   ► a third party to be, you know, hacking my stuff

00:28:31 ◼   ► on the side there with my service outside of my control.

00:28:34 ◼   ► That, I would never in a million years allow that,

00:28:36 ◼   ► and Apple sure as heck won't,

00:28:38 ◼   ► and this is going to be over very soon.

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00:30:25 ◼   ► - ECC RAM, it just won't die.

00:30:31 ◼   ► - I mean, it won't die because there are still nuances

00:30:35 ◼   ► that we haven't gotten right,

00:30:36 ◼   ► so we're gonna keep doing it until we get it right.

00:30:37 ◼   ► This'll be the last time, though.

00:30:38 ◼   ► This has gotta be the last time we gotta get it right.

00:30:40 ◼   ► - Well, it will die, but it will tell you that it has died.

00:30:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:30:44 ◼   ► So to refresh everyone's memory,

00:30:45 ◼   ► this was originally like an Ask ATP question,

00:30:48 ◼   ► basically saying, ECC memory used to be a thing,

00:30:51 ◼   ► now on Apple Silicon.

00:30:52 ◼   ► Is it a thing?

00:30:53 ◼   ► Should it be?

00:30:54 ◼   ► What's the deal?

00:30:54 ◼   ► And we've been narrowing,

00:30:56 ◼   ► getting closer and closer to the truth.

00:30:58 ◼   ► One final update from, of course, Jonathan Dietz Jr.

00:31:02 ◼   ► And where last we left it was basically to summarize

00:31:08 ◼   ► that the RAM used in the latest Apple Silicon things

00:31:10 ◼   ► have on-die ECC and support link ECC,

00:31:14 ◼   ► which is the ECC in transit between the RAM and the SOC.

00:31:18 ◼   ► But we weren't sure if Apple was using that.

00:31:20 ◼   ► So the upshot was like, oh,

00:31:22 ◼   ► they could have as good ECC as the Xeons did.

00:31:26 ◼   ► We're not sure if they do,

00:31:27 ◼   ► but they should have better ECC

00:31:30 ◼   ► than the plain old consumer Intels

00:31:32 ◼   ► that didn't have ECC in the old days.

00:31:33 ◼   ► Here is further clarification for that.

00:31:36 ◼   ► On-die ECC is not part of the JEDEC,

00:31:39 ◼   ► is that right, JEDEC?

00:31:41 ◼   ► - I always heard JEDEC.

00:31:42 ◼   ► - There you go.

00:31:43 ◼   ► On-die ECC is not part of the JEDEC specifications

00:31:46 ◼   ► for LPDDR memories.

00:31:47 ◼   ► It is implemented in various proprietary fashions

00:31:49 ◼   ► by DRAM manufacturers to increase the yields

00:31:51 ◼   ► on leading edge process notes.

00:31:52 ◼   ► This is what we heard from a lot of people,

00:31:53 ◼   ► like, oh, that error correction is not for correcting errors.

00:31:56 ◼   ► It's actually just for correcting errors,

00:31:57 ◼   ► which is very confusing,

00:31:58 ◼   ► but it's like, what was the motivation?

00:32:00 ◼   ► The motivation, I'll continue reading here.

00:32:03 ◼   ► Not all LPDDR4 chips incorporate on-die ECC, however.

00:32:07 ◼   ► Many do.

00:32:08 ◼   ► It really depends on which manufacturing process you use,

00:32:10 ◼   ► and we'll link to a white paper

00:32:11 ◼   ► that sums up the issue in the show notes.

00:32:13 ◼   ► Jonathan continues, as you correctly surmised,

00:32:17 ◼   ► Apple has gone out of their way to minimize trace lengths

00:32:19 ◼   ► to ensure the highest possible signal integrity

00:32:21 ◼   ► with their on-package memory for Apple Silicon.

00:32:23 ◼   ► They also minimize electrical loading

00:32:25 ◼   ► by placing only a single die or rank on each LPDDR channel

00:32:29 ◼   ► and have elected to stick with relatively conservative

00:32:31 ◼   ► LPDDR6400 speeds rather than pushing the envelope

00:32:34 ◼   ► with something like LPDDR5X9600.

00:32:37 ◼   ► Apple doesn't appear to have link ECC enabled

00:32:40 ◼   ► on the M series chip, and it's not clear to me

00:32:42 ◼   ► that the memory controller is necessarily supported.

00:32:44 ◼   ► If they're simply using DesignWare IP from Synopsys,

00:32:47 ◼   ► then it's probably along for the ride, but who knows?

00:32:50 ◼   ► Classic sideband ECC, where you have extra DRAM devices

00:32:53 ◼   ► written in red back by the memory controller

00:32:54 ◼   ► provides end-to-end SECDED, Sec-ded?

00:32:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:33:00 ◼   ► Single bit error correction, double bit error detection.

00:33:02 ◼   ► I think we talked about this in the past show.

00:33:04 ◼   ► Neither on die nor link ECC do that.

00:33:07 ◼   ► So this is the important distinction

00:33:08 ◼   ► that we didn't get at before.

00:33:09 ◼   ► All this ECC stuff we're talking about

00:33:11 ◼   ► does not do single bit error correction

00:33:12 ◼   ► or double bit error detection.

00:33:14 ◼   ► So what does it do?

00:33:15 ◼   ► On die ECC silently corrects any single bit errors

00:33:18 ◼   ► that happen on die with no involvement from the host system.

00:33:20 ◼   ► This allows DRAM manufacturers to sell chips

00:33:22 ◼   ► that may contain a sprinkling of defective bits

00:33:25 ◼   ► as known good dies and their customers are none the wiser.

00:33:27 ◼   ► As an added benefit, on die ECC will also correct

00:33:30 ◼   ► any single bit errors caused by external factors

00:33:32 ◼   ► in rows that are otherwise free of manufacturing defects.

00:33:34 ◼   ► Did you get that a little bit?

00:33:35 ◼   ► So like they do this so they can sell you RAM

00:33:38 ◼   ► that has bad bits because they know the ECC will fix it.

00:33:41 ◼   ► But also if a cosmic ray hits your chip,

00:33:44 ◼   ► they'll fix that too, provided it happened

00:33:47 ◼   ► on one of the things that didn't already have a defect.

00:33:50 ◼   ► So if the cosmic ray hits one of the good cells in the RAM,

00:33:55 ◼   ► it causes an error, ECC sees it,

00:33:57 ◼   ► on die ECC sees it and fixes it, great.

00:34:00 ◼   ► If the cosmic ray hits one of those rows

00:34:02 ◼   ► that had a bad manufacturing defect

00:34:03 ◼   ► and it was only working because ECC

00:34:05 ◼   ► was fixing the one bit errors,

00:34:06 ◼   ► now you've got a two bit error and it can't correct that.

00:34:09 ◼   ► So this is the important distinction.

00:34:11 ◼   ► John, I think I didn't use.

00:34:14 ◼   ► There is no mechanism present to inform the host system

00:34:17 ◼   ► when errors are corrected or uncorrected errors

00:34:19 ◼   ► are encountered.

00:34:20 ◼   ► So if you get that two bit error,

00:34:22 ◼   ► not only is it not corrected,

00:34:23 ◼   ► but the RAM chip can't tell you about it.

00:34:25 ◼   ► So that error is getting passed on and link ECC

00:34:28 ◼   ► doesn't matter because at that point

00:34:29 ◼   ► you've got erroneous data coming off the RAM chips.

00:34:32 ◼   ► So that's a bummer.

00:34:34 ◼   ► When the memory controller handles ECC,

00:34:35 ◼   ► it can track errors using counters

00:34:37 ◼   ► and provide substantially more robust features.

00:34:39 ◼   ► For instance, John's Xeon based Mac Pro

00:34:41 ◼   ► reports memory errors for each DIMM and system information

00:34:44 ◼   ► and macOS will alert you when the DIMMs are failing

00:34:46 ◼   ► and require replacement.

00:34:47 ◼   ► This is a fun thing from back in the Intel days.

00:34:50 ◼   ► I think it was my 2008 Mac Pro,

00:34:51 ◼   ► might've even been my G3, I don't remember,

00:34:53 ◼   ► but one of those big tower computers with an Intel CPU

00:34:57 ◼   ► that I owned that had DIMMs in it

00:34:59 ◼   ► had little red LED lights on each little slot

00:35:03 ◼   ► that the memory DIMMs went in.

00:35:05 ◼   ► And if you had a band DIMM or inserted in the wrong place

00:35:07 ◼   ► or whatever, it would light up red

00:35:08 ◼   ► to tell you which one was bad.

00:35:10 ◼   ► Amazing, loved it.

00:35:11 ◼   ► - You can even see it in the, like about this Mac thing.

00:35:13 ◼   ► It would tell you like the,

00:35:14 ◼   ► I think it would tell you the error count

00:35:15 ◼   ► on each DIMM, right?

00:35:16 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:35:17 ◼   ► And that's the full fledged ECC

00:35:19 ◼   ► where every single DIMM has extra memory.

00:35:21 ◼   ► We talked about it before.

00:35:22 ◼   ► That's implemented by the memory controller, right?

00:35:24 ◼   ► That is a more robust solution.

00:35:25 ◼   ► So Jonathan continues,

00:35:27 ◼   ► all DDR5 memories implement on die ECC,

00:35:30 ◼   ► yet DDR5 DIMMs with extra chips for Sideband ECC

00:35:33 ◼   ► are still a thing.

00:35:34 ◼   ► In fact, because DDR5 DIMMs are divided

00:35:36 ◼   ► into two 32-bit channels,

00:35:37 ◼   ► the ECC versions are 80 bits wide

00:35:39 ◼   ► and require two or more additional chips

00:35:41 ◼   ► to store the ECC data.

00:35:43 ◼   ► LPDDR channels and die interfaces are both 16 bits wide,

00:35:45 ◼   ► so adding one extra die per channel to implement Sideband ECC

00:35:48 ◼   ► will require doubling the number of DRAM dies.

00:35:51 ◼   ► This is obviously not a practical solution.

00:35:53 ◼   ► If you want to achieve the same level of ECC available

00:35:55 ◼   ► on Xeon's and AMD Epic platforms using LPDDR memory,

00:35:58 ◼   ► you have to implement inline ECC.

00:36:00 ◼   ► In this scheme, the memory controller stores ECC code

00:36:02 ◼   ► along with the actual data on the same die

00:36:04 ◼   ► without making the channel wider.

00:36:05 ◼   ► Obviously, this comes along

00:36:07 ◼   ► with some performance implications

00:36:08 ◼   ► and a reduction in memory size available for storing data.

00:36:11 ◼   ► To date, Apple has not implemented inline ECC

00:36:13 ◼   ► on Apple Silicon Macs.

00:36:14 ◼   ► So to sum up,

00:36:17 ◼   ► ECC, is it a thing on Apple Silicon?

00:36:19 ◼   ► Not in the same way it was on Intel Xeons,

00:36:23 ◼   ► but in slightly more ways than it was on non-Xeon Intel Macs.

00:36:28 ◼   ► Could Apple have been, Apple still can benefit from it?

00:36:31 ◼   ► I think so, yes, but the costs involved mean

00:36:34 ◼   ► that the only place it would really be appropriate

00:36:36 ◼   ► would be on the Mac Pro,

00:36:37 ◼   ► if Apple continues to make that a thing,

00:36:39 ◼   ► and maybe on the highest of high-end Mac studios.

00:36:42 ◼   ► And based on all of this,

00:36:44 ◼   ► my guess would be that Apple is never going to do

00:36:46 ◼   ► either one of those things,

00:36:47 ◼   ► because it's so expensive,

00:36:50 ◼   ► and like, 'cause they don't wanna do the inline one,

00:36:52 ◼   ► 'cause you don't wanna take a performance hit,

00:36:53 ◼   ► and the other one is just so much more expensive,

00:36:56 ◼   ► that I don't think there's any appetite for that

00:36:58 ◼   ► from Apple's customers or from Apple itself,

00:37:01 ◼   ► which is kind of a bummer,

00:37:02 ◼   ► but as many people who wrote in, you know,

00:37:06 ◼   ► pointed out or supposed,

00:37:08 ◼   ► we got ECC for all those years on the Intel Mac Pro,

00:37:12 ◼   ► because Intel put it there,

00:37:14 ◼   ► and Apple essentially got it,

00:37:15 ◼   ► because if you wanted a Xeon,

00:37:16 ◼   ► it supported ECC memory,

00:37:17 ◼   ► like it's just, you know, there you go, right?

00:37:20 ◼   ► I suppose they could have not taken it or whatever,

00:37:23 ◼   ► but it was already there.

00:37:24 ◼   ► It was part, it was priced into the package.

00:37:25 ◼   ► Now that Apple gets to decide what features exist,

00:37:28 ◼   ► and now that Apple's decisions

00:37:29 ◼   ► about what features to implement

00:37:31 ◼   ► really are not focused on the Mac Pro,

00:37:33 ◼   ► like at all, I can't imagine this ever appearing,

00:37:36 ◼   ► but I still think that if there's one computer

00:37:39 ◼   ► that it would be appropriate for, it would be the Mac Pro.

00:37:41 ◼   ► The rest of them, probably not.

00:37:44 ◼   ► Anyway, watch out for those cosmic rays.

00:37:46 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:37:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I think you're probably right.

00:37:48 ◼   ► They probably won't ever do it again,

00:37:50 ◼   ► but if they are looking for more things

00:37:53 ◼   ► to differentiate the Mac Pro,

00:37:55 ◼   ► and maybe even the Mac Studio,

00:37:57 ◼   ► from say, the laptops or the entire rest of the product line,

00:38:01 ◼   ► that is something they could do.

00:38:02 ◼   ► Again, I think you're probably right, they probably won't,

00:38:05 ◼   ► but it would be at least a differentiating feature.

00:38:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, and why does Intel do it?

00:38:11 ◼   ► Like, everyone always points this out

00:38:13 ◼   ► in their emails to us.

00:38:14 ◼   ► Like, well, where is it really important

00:38:16 ◼   ► that you handle these error cases?

00:38:18 ◼   ► Things like money, right?

00:38:19 ◼   ► One bit gets flipped and you don't detect it

00:38:21 ◼   ► in a money transfer thing.

00:38:23 ◼   ► That could be a lot of money gained or lost

00:38:25 ◼   ► in a millisecond, right?

00:38:26 ◼   ► It's a big deal, and so you want redundancy,

00:38:30 ◼   ► protection against everything you possibly can.

00:38:33 ◼   ► And cosmic rays, like, they're gonna come,

00:38:35 ◼   ► they're gonna tunnel through your data center,

00:38:37 ◼   ► and you don't know how deep underground you make it,

00:38:39 ◼   ► there's probably some cosmic ray that's getting in there,

00:38:41 ◼   ► errors in manufacturing.

00:38:42 ◼   ► You do not want those to happen without you knowing about it.

00:38:46 ◼   ► It's fine to detect it and throw up your hands and say,

00:38:48 ◼   ► "I cannot continue," and just halt the whole machine.

00:38:50 ◼   ► That is better than accidentally adding

00:38:51 ◼   ► or moving billions of dollars

00:38:53 ◼   ► because some bit flips somewhere, right?

00:38:55 ◼   ► Or thousands, or, you know, one cent, or like, whatever.

00:38:58 ◼   ► You just, you really want the numbers to add up

00:39:00 ◼   ► at the end of money stuff.

00:39:02 ◼   ► And similarly for like safety systems on, you know,

00:39:05 ◼   ► weapon systems or medical things or whatever,

00:39:07 ◼   ► there are cases where you wanna do everything

00:39:09 ◼   ► you possibly can to protect the integrity of the memory,

00:39:13 ◼   ► but there's pretty much nothing that Apple does

00:39:15 ◼   ► except for the car that they haven't ever shipped,

00:39:16 ◼   ► where that rises to that level of reliability concern.

00:39:20 ◼   ► So then it's really just a matter of, okay, well,

00:39:22 ◼   ► are they putting so much RAM in some machine

00:39:24 ◼   ► that the odds of an undetected one-bit error

00:39:27 ◼   ► become 100% over the course of a year of running

00:39:29 ◼   ► or something, and how important is that, you know?

00:39:33 ◼   ► So I loved it when I had it.

00:39:34 ◼   ► I liked the little lights on the DIMMs.

00:39:37 ◼   ► I would take it if they gave it to me,

00:39:39 ◼   ► but reading all this makes it seem like

00:39:41 ◼   ► I'm not gonna get it.

00:39:43 ◼   ► - Joe Lyon has some thoughts on US fabs

00:39:46 ◼   ► and the semiconductor business.

00:39:47 ◼   ► Joe writes, "In addition to Intel and TSMC

00:39:50 ◼   ► building fabs in the US,

00:39:51 ◼   ► Micron is building two fabs in the US as well.

00:39:53 ◼   ► That sentence would have been unthinkable

00:39:55 ◼   ► just a few years ago.

00:39:56 ◼   ► When Moore's Law was going at full steam

00:39:58 ◼   ► in the '80s to 2000s, semiconductor companies

00:40:00 ◼   ► could be careful about building too many fabs

00:40:03 ◼   ► because process node shrinks basically made it

00:40:05 ◼   ► so that companies could continue to pump out

00:40:07 ◼   ► more transistors year after year,

00:40:09 ◼   ► while using roughly the same amount of wafers,

00:40:10 ◼   ► or increasing the wafer outs or the number of fabs

00:40:13 ◼   ► at a reasonable pace.

00:40:14 ◼   ► But with silicon shrinks slowing way, way down

00:40:17 ◼   ► for all kinds of chips, in the future,

00:40:19 ◼   ► the main way to pump out more gigabytes of memory or storage

00:40:21 ◼   ► or more logic transistors, et cetera,

00:40:23 ◼   ► is going to be to build new fabs and generate more wafers.

00:40:26 ◼   ► Instead of relying on process shrinks

00:40:28 ◼   ► as a way to continue growing transistor outputs,

00:40:30 ◼   ► the future is going to have to also rely

00:40:31 ◼   ► on massively expanding the number of fabs and wafers

00:40:33 ◼   ► to keep up with transistor demand growth."

00:40:36 ◼   ► - So watch for that gigantic silicon fab opening

00:40:39 ◼   ► somewhere near you.

00:40:40 ◼   ► - I am at least not at all well versed

00:40:42 ◼   ► on things like world politics,

00:40:44 ◼   ► or even the ins and outs of the semiconductor trade.

00:40:47 ◼   ► But looking at things like the US,

00:40:49 ◼   ► the CHIPS Act or whatever it was called,

00:40:51 ◼   ► where we're funding a whole bunch of fab stuff,

00:40:53 ◼   ► and I know a lot of it's basically going to Intel

00:40:55 ◼   ► and stuff, that's fine.

00:40:56 ◼   ► But looking at a lot of this stuff,

00:40:58 ◼   ► the computer industry has grown up during an era

00:41:03 ◼   ► of pretty stable world peace in most of the world.

00:41:08 ◼   ► We've been able to have things like free trade with China,

00:41:13 ◼   ► with Taiwan, all these very globalized economies.

00:41:18 ◼   ► We have this assumption that we will always be able

00:41:20 ◼   ► to do this, and therefore, like,

00:41:22 ◼   ► oh, we can build all these chips in Taiwan

00:41:24 ◼   ► because of course that will always continue to be available

00:41:28 ◼   ► and we won't have any problems at all by doing that.

00:41:32 ◼   ► And I think it's probably better for the industry

00:41:36 ◼   ► to start building in some safeties, to start diversifying.

00:41:39 ◼   ► Have factories in multiple countries

00:41:42 ◼   ► that make critical parts, be able to do as much stuff

00:41:45 ◼   ► as you can domestically in a country as big as the US.

00:41:48 ◼   ► Hopefully we should have our own capacity

00:41:51 ◼   ► for a lot of this stuff.

00:41:51 ◼   ► And I know, again, I don't know anything about this business

00:41:54 ◼   ► to the level that other podcasters do talk about this,

00:41:57 ◼   ► and analysts and stuff.

00:41:59 ◼   ► But to the extent that we can,

00:42:01 ◼   ► I know we are pretty far from being able to make

00:42:06 ◼   ► cutting edge chips and cutting edge fabs here in the US.

00:42:09 ◼   ► I know that.

00:42:11 ◼   ► And we might stay that way forever, who knows?

00:42:13 ◼   ► But it is probably a good idea, for lots of reasons,

00:42:18 ◼   ► to build as much as we can with our own capacity here.

00:42:23 ◼   ► And so all the stuff that we're seeing,

00:42:25 ◼   ► new fabs being built, funding for them,

00:42:27 ◼   ► different geopolitical effects,

00:42:29 ◼   ► I think this is probably for the best.

00:42:31 ◼   ► The more we can build here, probably the better.

00:42:35 ◼   ► - And even things like TSMC, not a US company,

00:42:38 ◼   ► having them make fabs inside the US is another hedge,

00:42:41 ◼   ► because they can, in theory,

00:42:43 ◼   ► do have the cutting edge knowledge.

00:42:45 ◼   ► The fabs they're making here

00:42:46 ◼   ► I don't think are going to be cutting edge,

00:42:47 ◼   ► but in theory they could be in the future.

00:42:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:42:51 ◼   ► You gotta start somewhere.

00:42:52 ◼   ► And so all this reinvestment

00:42:56 ◼   ► and this new capacity we're building out,

00:42:59 ◼   ► it's a good start.

00:43:00 ◼   ► It is far from the end, but it's a good start.

00:43:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I would say, second only to healthcare,

00:43:06 ◼   ► I think computer chips are going to be a business

00:43:10 ◼   ► for the foreseeable future.

00:43:12 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:43:13 ◼   ► It's not like they're going away.

00:43:14 ◼   ► Maybe they'll be replaced by quantum things.

00:43:16 ◼   ► All I'm saying is this is an industry

00:43:18 ◼   ► that is not a flash in the pan.

00:43:21 ◼   ► Computers will be with us for a very long time,

00:43:24 ◼   ► and as they evolve, we should make sure

00:43:26 ◼   ► we have some piece of that business.

00:43:28 ◼   ► Obviously we have many parts of that.

00:43:29 ◼   ► The US is doing great in terms of operating system platforms.

00:43:32 ◼   ► The two main phone platforms are US,

00:43:34 ◼   ► it's Google and Apple, right?

00:43:36 ◼   ► And the PC platforms, Microsoft and Apple.

00:43:40 ◼   ► We've done a lot of great things here,

00:43:41 ◼   ► but there are some gaps,

00:43:42 ◼   ► and silicon chips are definitely one of them.

00:43:45 ◼   ► - Jon, tell me that you've found a solution

00:43:48 ◼   ► to this problem that only you are having

00:43:50 ◼   ► with the Sonos Roam.

00:43:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I have been gathering a bunch of stuff

00:43:55 ◼   ► related to my Sonos Roam that would occasionally stutter

00:43:58 ◼   ► when I tried to play music to it through AirPlay,

00:43:59 ◼   ► and my solution, my workaround had been

00:44:01 ◼   ► to either restart the Roam, restart the phone, or both.

00:44:04 ◼   ► I've also tried the thing that someone suggested,

00:44:06 ◼   ► maybe it was Gee Rambo or something.

00:44:07 ◼   ► If your phone is set up as a developer device

00:44:10 ◼   ► and you go to the developer settings screen,

00:44:13 ◼   ► there's a thing that says reset media services.

00:44:16 ◼   ► That also works, by the way.

00:44:17 ◼   ► I've done that a few times.

00:44:18 ◼   ► Reset media services usually also fixes the problem.

00:44:21 ◼   ► Anyway, since I reported that,

00:44:24 ◼   ► many, many people sent me many, many links

00:44:27 ◼   ► from many long-suffering Sonos customers

00:44:30 ◼   ► over the course of many years

00:44:31 ◼   ► having exactly the same problem with the Sonos Roam.

00:44:34 ◼   ► We will put many of those links in the show notes.

00:44:37 ◼   ► Solutions are offered.

00:44:40 ◼   ► All the solutions they suggested

00:44:41 ◼   ► did not actually fix the problem for me,

00:44:43 ◼   ► but people continue to suffer with it.

00:44:45 ◼   ► Someone even thought it was a manufacturing defect

00:44:47 ◼   ► and that the new ones didn't have it.

00:44:49 ◼   ► I don't think that's true

00:44:50 ◼   ► because I've purchased two of these

00:44:51 ◼   ► over the course of many years,

00:44:52 ◼   ► and the most recent one has the same problem as the old one.

00:44:54 ◼   ► Here's the upshot.

00:44:55 ◼   ► The current situation is that I have heard

00:44:58 ◼   ► that this problem is being worked on inside Sonos.

00:45:02 ◼   ► So I'm out here,

00:45:03 ◼   ► kind of like I was with the wind of Dragonbug,

00:45:04 ◼   ► saying fingers crossed, they know about it at Sonos.

00:45:08 ◼   ► They should know about it

00:45:09 ◼   ► because a lot of the links we're gonna put in

00:45:10 ◼   ► are like the community sites on Sonos,

00:45:12 ◼   ► like the Sonos' own forums.

00:45:13 ◼   ► People were complaining about it for years,

00:45:15 ◼   ► and maybe me complaining about it on a podcast

00:45:17 ◼   ► gave it a little, you know, nudge, kick,

00:45:20 ◼   ► but it's still happening,

00:45:22 ◼   ► but in theory, someone is working on it,

00:45:24 ◼   ► so that's the situation.

00:45:25 ◼   ► I will let you know if and when a firmware update arrives

00:45:27 ◼   ► in my house that fixes the problem.

00:45:29 ◼   ► In the meantime, I'll just keep rebooting things.

00:45:32 ◼   ► - Fun.

00:45:34 ◼   ► Feedback from at this point, two or three months ago,

00:45:36 ◼   ► we were talking about AWS S3 Glacier,

00:45:39 ◼   ► and this is, I don't know if I'm the best person

00:45:42 ◼   ► to give a summary of it,

00:45:43 ◼   ► but basically long-term file storage

00:45:44 ◼   ► that's allegedly very slow, but it's very cheap,

00:45:48 ◼   ► and I forget exactly who it was.

00:45:49 ◼   ► I assume Jon was theorizing,

00:45:51 ◼   ► oh, maybe it's on like optical media or tape

00:45:53 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:45:54 ◼   ► - It was a rumor.

00:45:55 ◼   ► It's a story that you hear.

00:45:56 ◼   ► If you're involved with AWS S3

00:45:57 ◼   ► and you hear about Glacier,

00:45:58 ◼   ► someone will mention the rumor that,

00:46:00 ◼   ► oh, they're using optical drives or Blu-ray discs

00:46:03 ◼   ► or something, whatever was like the cheap but slow.

00:46:05 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:46:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, because the whole thing is like,

00:46:08 ◼   ► you know, Glacier, it's like S3 sort of.

00:46:11 ◼   ► However, it's way cheaper to store things,

00:46:15 ◼   ► and the idea is the trade-off you're making

00:46:17 ◼   ► by it being way cheaper to store things

00:46:19 ◼   ► is they make it more expensive to get data back out,

00:46:22 ◼   ► and it's slow to get data back out.

00:46:24 ◼   ► So the idea of Glacier is if you have a lot of data

00:46:27 ◼   ► to store that you tend to write a lot more than you read,

00:46:31 ◼   ► so for instance, archives of log files

00:46:34 ◼   ► or like database backups or things like,

00:46:37 ◼   ► you're writing them a lot,

00:46:38 ◼   ► you hardly ever have to read them,

00:46:39 ◼   ► but you really want very cheap storage,

00:46:43 ◼   ► then that's what Glacier's for.

00:46:44 ◼   ► So that's why there were all these weird rumors

00:46:46 ◼   ► when it came out, like how are they doing this?

00:46:48 ◼   ► It was way cheaper than S3.

00:46:49 ◼   ► They were like, maybe they have some kind of

00:46:52 ◼   ► like tape robot and they just have a million backup tapes

00:46:55 ◼   ► and like a million tape robots that are going through

00:46:57 ◼   ► fetching them or who knows what they were.

00:47:00 ◼   ► - It's like, what was it, was it a racer

00:47:02 ◼   ► with Vanessa Williams and Arnold Schwarzenegger

00:47:04 ◼   ► where there was like a climactic scene

00:47:05 ◼   ► where they were getting like mini-discs or CDs or something?

00:47:08 ◼   ► I think they were like, what is it, the tray?

00:47:10 ◼   ► We were talking about this just a month or two ago,

00:47:12 ◼   ► the tray that you would put the CD in and the CD--

00:47:14 ◼   ► - The caddy?

00:47:15 ◼   ► - The caddy, that's what I was looking for, thank you.

00:47:17 ◼   ► And they would like spit out a caddy

00:47:19 ◼   ► and Vanessa Williams had to like,

00:47:20 ◼   ► I don't know, copy it or something like that.

00:47:21 ◼   ► It was a delightfully crappy movie.

00:47:23 ◼   ► I should watch that again.

00:47:24 ◼   ► - Caddies were awful but they looked really cool in movies.

00:47:27 ◼   ► - Yep, exactly.

00:47:28 ◼   ► Anyways, all this to say that Anonymous is written in

00:47:31 ◼   ► with regard to AWS S3 Glacier.

00:47:33 ◼   ► I worked for AWS.

00:47:34 ◼   ► Glacier has never been optical discs nor tapes.

00:47:37 ◼   ► It's always been hard drives.

00:47:39 ◼   ► The way they make storage cheaper

00:47:40 ◼   ► is they over-provision the storage racks

00:47:42 ◼   ► and only a fraction of the drives

00:47:44 ◼   ► are powered at any given time.

00:47:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, so what I assume this means is like,

00:47:48 ◼   ► 'cause obviously power is a major cost for a data center.

00:47:52 ◼   ► It might even be the biggest cost for a data center

00:47:54 ◼   ► and so the idea is I guess they just have racks

00:47:57 ◼   ► that are just stuffed full of hard drives.

00:47:59 ◼   ► Most of them are just powered off

00:48:01 ◼   ► and they power on the ones that they need

00:48:03 ◼   ► upon request, I guess.

00:48:04 ◼   ► - And over-provision, I'm assuming,

00:48:06 ◼   ► means that they couldn't turn them all on at the same time

00:48:08 ◼   ► because they wouldn't be able to

00:48:09 ◼   ► get the heat out fast enough.

00:48:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, presumably they're limited

00:48:12 ◼   ► by either heat or power or both.

00:48:14 ◼   ► And so they, but they stuff them full

00:48:15 ◼   ► and they say, all right, at any given time

00:48:16 ◼   ► we can power on 40% of these or whatever

00:48:19 ◼   ► and they manage it that way.

00:48:20 ◼   ► - And I'll give my little A to B west pitch now.

00:48:22 ◼   ► If you're using S3 and you haven't looked at it

00:48:24 ◼   ► in a while, Marco, no, maybe it's not relevant for Marco,

00:48:27 ◼   ► but for people who are actually storing

00:48:29 ◼   ► huge amounts of data--

00:48:29 ◼   ► - Is it still super expensive?

00:48:31 ◼   ► Yes, it's not relevant to me then, okay.

00:48:33 ◼   ► - For people who are storing huge amounts of data,

00:48:36 ◼   ► there have been advancements in the,

00:48:39 ◼   ► financial advancements in S3,

00:48:41 ◼   ► the most recent of which is S3 Intelligent Tiering.

00:48:44 ◼   ► They had so many ways to like, oh, you can save money,

00:48:46 ◼   ► just take your least recently used files

00:48:47 ◼   ► and tier them down to a cheaper storage

00:48:49 ◼   ► and do this and do that.

00:48:50 ◼   ► And it's like, yeah, you could do that,

00:48:52 ◼   ► but am I gonna write some weird sophisticated algorithm

00:48:54 ◼   ► that figures out which files I should tier down

00:48:56 ◼   ► and which files I should tier up?

00:48:57 ◼   ► Because of course you get charged every time

00:48:58 ◼   ► you tier them and everything.

00:48:59 ◼   ► Like several years ago, AWS introduced

00:49:03 ◼   ► S3 Intelligent Tiering, which yes, they do charge you for,

00:49:07 ◼   ► but net net, the fact that AWS does it for you

00:49:10 ◼   ► is probably going to save you money, right?

00:49:12 ◼   ► So basically you just say, here, Esther, here's my file.

00:49:15 ◼   ► If I don't access it in a while,

00:49:17 ◼   ► just put it in cheaper and cheaper storage,

00:49:19 ◼   ► cheaper and cheaper and slower and slower storage, right?

00:49:21 ◼   ► And when I get it, pull it up to the faster storage,

00:49:23 ◼   ► like just, Esther, just do everything for me

00:49:25 ◼   ► and try to save me money.

00:49:26 ◼   ► Because I think as AWS learned over the years,

00:49:29 ◼   ► that if you give all these different tiers

00:49:31 ◼   ► and different price structures and everything,

00:49:33 ◼   ► and hope that people will write some sophisticated algorithm

00:49:36 ◼   ► that moves all their data

00:49:37 ◼   ► to the most economically advantageous tier, they won't.

00:49:41 ◼   ► It's too hard to do, right?

00:49:42 ◼   ► They just want you to do it for them.

00:49:44 ◼   ► And that exists.

00:49:45 ◼   ► It's called, I believe it's called Intelligent Tiering.

00:49:47 ◼   ► So look into that.

00:49:48 ◼   ► If you're paying a lot of money for your stuff

00:49:49 ◼   ► that started in S3, I believe Intelligent Tiering

00:49:51 ◼   ► might even go all the way down to Glacier, but I'm not sure.

00:49:53 ◼   ► But anyway, if you haven't looked at their pricing stuff

00:49:55 ◼   ► in a while, there may be something out there

00:49:59 ◼   ► that will save you some money

00:50:00 ◼   ► with little to no work on your part.

00:50:01 ◼   ► - And then finally for tonight,

00:50:04 ◼   ► Photos Not Processing Faces or Pets.

00:50:08 ◼   ► So this was you, remind me, John,

00:50:10 ◼   ► you wanted it to process stuff, you wanted to sync now

00:50:12 ◼   ► or your process now button and you didn't have one, right?

00:50:14 ◼   ► Or something along those lines?

00:50:15 ◼   ► - Yep, Photos does a bunch of things in theory,

00:50:18 ◼   ► but it does them when it damn well feels like it

00:50:20 ◼   ► and you can't make it do it any faster.

00:50:22 ◼   ► - Nice.

00:50:23 ◼   ► So this is via Justin Mercer.

00:50:24 ◼   ► Justin writes, "It's not going to help John's situation,

00:50:27 ◼   ► "but this Stack Exchange on just unplugging

00:50:29 ◼   ► "an external monitor immediately fixed my own problem

00:50:31 ◼   ► "overnight after not making progress for three weeks

00:50:35 ◼   ► "on detecting faces in Photos.

00:50:37 ◼   ► "Coincidence or not, added to the Photos

00:50:38 ◼   ► "homoeopathic remedies."

00:50:40 ◼   ► And so the TLDR on the Stack Exchange

00:50:42 ◼   ► is that somebody did a lot of spelunking

00:50:44 ◼   ► and found, if I recall correctly,

00:50:46 ◼   ► that the GPU felt like it was thermal,

00:50:49 ◼   ► well, maybe not thermal throttling,

00:50:50 ◼   ► but it was not in a position thermally

00:50:53 ◼   ► to do a lot of this AI, ML sort of detection and whatnot.

00:50:58 ◼   ► And once the person Stack Exchange

00:51:01 ◼   ► unplugged their external monitor,

00:51:02 ◼   ► thus putting less of a burden on the GPU,

00:51:05 ◼   ► suddenly everything started churning

00:51:06 ◼   ► and churning almost immediately.

00:51:08 ◼   ► - That's the problem with all these background things

00:51:10 ◼   ► that I talked about, like Apple's trying so hard

00:51:12 ◼   ► to be nice to your system, so much so

00:51:14 ◼   ► that they refuse to run if they're afraid

00:51:16 ◼   ► this will use too many resources.

00:51:18 ◼   ► And what I'm always looking for is the button that says,

00:51:19 ◼   ► "Just use all the resources now."

00:51:22 ◼   ► Like, and then I'll push the button when I want you to stop.

00:51:25 ◼   ► Like, I'm telling you now, it's okay.

00:51:27 ◼   ► You don't have to only run on the E-Core.

00:51:29 ◼   ► You don't have to only run not on the discrete GPU.

00:51:32 ◼   ► Like, do not, like, you know, because by default,

00:51:35 ◼   ► the services are, this is, I have something

00:51:36 ◼   ► this is back in the Intel days when you had

00:51:37 ◼   ► the integrated GPU and the discrete one or whatever.

00:51:40 ◼   ► Just like, don't worry about it.

00:51:41 ◼   ► If you see a resource on the computer, just use it.

00:51:43 ◼   ► Use all the resources now, this is the thing

00:51:45 ◼   ► I want you to do, and then have a button that say,

00:51:47 ◼   ► "Okay, I'm back on my computer,

00:51:48 ◼   ► "I want you to stop doing that."

00:51:49 ◼   ► And that doesn't exist yet, so hopefully

00:51:51 ◼   ► that'll be next year's big photos feature.

00:51:53 ◼   ► - All right, let's do some topics,

00:51:56 ◼   ► and it seems like it's all security all the way down.

00:52:01 ◼   ► And let's start with the very uncomfortable news

00:52:04 ◼   ► that governments are apparently spying

00:52:06 ◼   ► on Apple and Google users through push notifications,

00:52:09 ◼   ► which is super fun.

00:52:12 ◼   ► There was an article on Reuters,

00:52:14 ◼   ► unidentified governments are surveilling

00:52:16 ◼   ► smartphone users via their apps push notifications,

00:52:18 ◼   ► a US senator warned on Wednesday.

00:52:21 ◼   ► In a letter to the Department of Justice,

00:52:22 ◼   ► Senator Ron Wyden said foreign officials

00:52:25 ◼   ► were demanding the data from Google and Apple.

00:52:27 ◼   ► Although the details were sparse,

00:52:28 ◼   ► the letter lays out yet another path

00:52:30 ◼   ► by which governments can track smartphones.

00:52:32 ◼   ► Apple and Google's push notification services

00:52:34 ◼   ► give the two companies unique insight into the traffic

00:52:37 ◼   ► flowing from those apps to their users,

00:52:40 ◼   ► and in turn puts them in a unique position

00:52:42 ◼   ► to facilitate government surveillance

00:52:44 ◼   ► of how users are using particular apps, Wyden said.

00:52:47 ◼   ► He asked the Department of Justice to quote,

00:52:49 ◼   ► "repeal or modify any policies," quote,

00:52:51 ◼   ► "that hindered public discussions

00:52:52 ◼   ► "of push notification spying."

00:52:54 ◼   ► From his letter, the data these two companies receive

00:52:57 ◼   ► includes metadata detailing which app

00:52:59 ◼   ► received a notification and when,

00:53:00 ◼   ► as well as the phone and associated Apple or Google account

00:53:03 ◼   ► to which that notification was intended to be delivered.

00:53:06 ◼   ► In certain instances, they might also receive

00:53:09 ◼   ► unencrypted content, which could range

00:53:11 ◼   ► from backend directives for the app

00:53:13 ◼   ► to the actual text displayed to a user in app notification.

00:53:16 ◼   ► In a statement, Apple said that Wyden's letter

00:53:19 ◼   ► gave them the opening they needed to share more details

00:53:21 ◼   ► with the public about how governments

00:53:22 ◼   ► monitor push notifications, so Apple said, quote,

00:53:25 ◼   ► "Now that this method has become public,

00:53:27 ◼   ► "we are updating our transparency reporting

00:53:28 ◼   ► "to detail these kinds of requests."

00:53:31 ◼   ► We have a little more here, but let me take a breath.

00:53:33 ◼   ► Gentlemen, anything you'd like to add?

00:53:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, so this situation and Apple's response to it,

00:53:38 ◼   ► this is just the fact of life in this country

00:53:40 ◼   ► and I assume in all countries.

00:53:42 ◼   ► Companies operate within governments.

00:53:46 ◼   ► Apple is a US company, they are subject to US laws.

00:53:50 ◼   ► And sometimes those laws say that Apple has to do things

00:53:54 ◼   ► for the government and that Apple

00:53:55 ◼   ► also can't tell anybody about them.

00:53:57 ◼   ► And I'm sure Apple doesn't like that,

00:54:01 ◼   ► but they are a US company and are subject to US laws.

00:54:03 ◼   ► So they do it.

00:54:05 ◼   ► And in this case, I'm assuming, of course,

00:54:07 ◼   ► Apple knows that they're being asked

00:54:09 ◼   ► for push notification stuff,

00:54:10 ◼   ► but they are apparently also constrained

00:54:12 ◼   ► from telling anybody that that's happening

00:54:14 ◼   ► for security reasons.

00:54:15 ◼   ► But now that it is public, now that the senator

00:54:17 ◼   ► has said this and it's public, apparently,

00:54:19 ◼   ► and I'm not a lawyer, but apparently Apple's lawyers

00:54:21 ◼   ► now believe that because it is public,

00:54:23 ◼   ► they can say, "Yes, this was totally happening to us.

00:54:25 ◼   ► "We couldn't say anything before,

00:54:26 ◼   ► "but now we can say something."

00:54:28 ◼   ► Which is crappy, but that's the way things work.

00:54:30 ◼   ► And this isn't more of a government issue

00:54:34 ◼   ► than a tech issue, but it's the intersection

00:54:37 ◼   ► of those two wonderful things.

00:54:39 ◼   ► Because in our country, in theory,

00:54:42 ◼   ► the laws that we subject the companies to

00:54:45 ◼   ► are the laws that we have chosen

00:54:47 ◼   ► by electing representatives who then make the laws

00:54:50 ◼   ► and so on and so forth.

00:54:51 ◼   ► That process, the distance from what the people want

00:54:54 ◼   ► to which laws companies like Apple are subject to,

00:54:57 ◼   ► often seems like a long distance.

00:54:59 ◼   ► It's like, what can I do as a voter to change this?

00:55:03 ◼   ► This issue is not going to be, quote unquote,

00:55:07 ◼   ► on the ballot anywhere.

00:55:08 ◼   ► It's not gonna be in campaign ads.

00:55:10 ◼   ► It's not gonna be front of mind for a lot of people.

00:55:11 ◼   ► People who don't listen to tech podcasts

00:55:12 ◼   ► probably don't know about it.

00:55:14 ◼   ► And yet, somehow, laws related to this

00:55:16 ◼   ► that basically say when and how the government

00:55:18 ◼   ► can demand something from a tech company

00:55:21 ◼   ► and when and how the government can force that company

00:55:23 ◼   ► not to say anything about it,

00:55:24 ◼   ► those laws are written and exist.

00:55:28 ◼   ► And if you don't like them and they sound like,

00:55:30 ◼   ► hey, I don't like that.

00:55:31 ◼   ► I don't want to live in a country

00:55:32 ◼   ► where my government can do that.

00:55:34 ◼   ► You might say, I want to change that.

00:55:36 ◼   ► Is there some way I can change that through voting?

00:55:39 ◼   ► And the answer is, in theory, yes.

00:55:41 ◼   ► In practice, probably there are more important things

00:55:45 ◼   ► like preserving democracy, stuff like that, you know,

00:55:49 ◼   ► that may, you know, like, when do we get down to the point

00:55:52 ◼   ► where you're voting based on nuances of policy

00:55:56 ◼   ► about security for tech companies?

00:55:57 ◼   ► We're probably not at that point, which is disappointing.

00:55:59 ◼   ► I personally find frustrating

00:56:01 ◼   ► 'cause I do care about these issues,

00:56:02 ◼   ► but I care more about preserving democracy

00:56:04 ◼   ► and abortion, for example.

00:56:06 ◼   ► So you're really, it's like,

00:56:09 ◼   ► and our stupid two-party system is like,

00:56:11 ◼   ► look, you already know who you're voting for anyway.

00:56:13 ◼   ► There's not that much you can do about it,

00:56:15 ◼   ► except I suppose to become more informed

00:56:17 ◼   ► and pressure the representatives that are closest to you

00:56:20 ◼   ► so that hopefully, somehow,

00:56:22 ◼   ► this is like the reverse of trickle-down economics

00:56:23 ◼   ► and probably works about as well,

00:56:25 ◼   ► trickle-up concern where you voice your esoteric concerns

00:56:28 ◼   ► to the representatives who are closest to you

00:56:30 ◼   ► in the hopes that somehow, some way,

00:56:33 ◼   ► some message might filter upwards in the chain

00:56:35 ◼   ► to someone who has some power over this.

00:56:37 ◼   ► The good thing about stories like this,

00:56:39 ◼   ► and this wasn't Reuters and was picked up

00:56:40 ◼   ► and maybe not the mainstream press,

00:56:42 ◼   ► but like the mainstream-ish press,

00:56:44 ◼   ► is that this puts it into people's minds.

00:56:46 ◼   ► They say, hey, you may not know this,

00:56:48 ◼   ► but this is a thing that your government is able to do.

00:56:51 ◼   ► It's able to do this stuff,

00:56:52 ◼   ► and it's able to force the company not to tell you.

00:56:54 ◼   ► And we know Apple, in general,

00:56:56 ◼   ► doesn't like to be in that position,

00:56:58 ◼   ► has fought the US government before over issues like this,

00:57:01 ◼   ► of like, we want the texts of this person,

00:57:03 ◼   ► and Apple says we can't give them to you,

00:57:05 ◼   ► and the government wants them to put in back doors

00:57:07 ◼   ► and all this other stuff.

00:57:08 ◼   ► Like, to the degree that this enters the public mind

00:57:12 ◼   ► by being in the New York Times

00:57:13 ◼   ► or being in your local newspaper or whatever,

00:57:14 ◼   ► I think it's good, but I'm so pessimistic

00:57:20 ◼   ► about the ability to change any of this

00:57:25 ◼   ► just because of how distant I feel as a voter

00:57:27 ◼   ► and how distant I think we all are as citizens

00:57:30 ◼   ► of this country from what happens at the way

00:57:32 ◼   ► far other end of the government.

00:57:35 ◼   ► So like I said, this is not really an Apple story.

00:57:37 ◼   ► I think Apple is doing mostly the right things here

00:57:39 ◼   ► with one caveat that we'll get to in a second,

00:57:42 ◼   ► but hearing this story does not make me happy.

00:57:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, this,

00:57:48 ◼   ► I know our government has done stuff like this

00:57:50 ◼   ► for a pretty long time, decades,

00:57:53 ◼   ► and that's nothing new, but it doesn't make it any better.

00:57:57 ◼   ► I can't think of something that's less American,

00:58:00 ◼   ► at least less of the ideals of what American means,

00:58:05 ◼   ► than we're gonna have some kind of police action against you

00:58:10 ◼   ► and we're gonna prevent the company

00:58:13 ◼   ► that we are getting your data from

00:58:15 ◼   ► from even telling you that they gave us your data.

00:58:18 ◼   ► That is, I would love to hear,

00:58:23 ◼   ► some of the founders of the country

00:58:25 ◼   ► I think would have a pretty big problem with that.

00:58:27 ◼   ► I certainly do. - Well, I wouldn't go

00:58:28 ◼   ► that far, but the other thing is

00:58:30 ◼   ► that's why those canaries exist,

00:58:31 ◼   ► where they'll have a page that says,

00:58:33 ◼   ► we have not, this thing has not happened to us,

00:58:36 ◼   ► and what they do is they just remove that from the page

00:58:37 ◼   ► if it ever happens to them, so they can plausibly say,

00:58:40 ◼   ► we didn't tell anybody it happened,

00:58:41 ◼   ► we just removed something from our website, right?

00:58:44 ◼   ► And I don't know if this, the problem with the canaries

00:58:47 ◼   ► is you kind of have to anticipate the thing

00:58:49 ◼   ► that might happen, so you can put a statement,

00:58:51 ◼   ► you can put the negative version of the statement there

00:58:53 ◼   ► and then remove it, so I don't know

00:58:55 ◼   ► if that was an issue here, but anyway,

00:58:58 ◼   ► senators apparently can find out this information

00:59:00 ◼   ► and make it public, which then gives Apple cover

00:59:02 ◼   ► to say something without violating the law or whatever,

00:59:04 ◼   ► so maybe that's also part of the system working.

00:59:06 ◼   ► And by the way, if you're wondering how these laws happen,

00:59:08 ◼   ► this is kind of a terrible ratcheting mechanism

00:59:10 ◼   ► we have in this country, and others I'm sure,

00:59:13 ◼   ► which is based on fear, whenever there's a crisis

00:59:15 ◼   ► and people are afraid, that's the perfect time

00:59:17 ◼   ► to pass a bunch of laws that give expansive power

00:59:18 ◼   ► to the government to invade people's privacy

00:59:20 ◼   ► for quote unquote safety, and when the danger is gone,

00:59:23 ◼   ► those laws go away, of course not,

00:59:25 ◼   ► it only goes in one direction, any time there's a crisis,

00:59:28 ◼   ► pounce on it, make more laws, you know,

00:59:29 ◼   ► the Patriot Act, 9/11, whatever, you know,

00:59:32 ◼   ► people are afraid, pass more laws that gives the government

00:59:34 ◼   ► more power to invade people's privacy,

00:59:36 ◼   ► and we'll repeal that when the danger's gone,

00:59:38 ◼   ► they never will, it's like the tolls

00:59:40 ◼   ► that are there to pay for the bridge,

00:59:41 ◼   ► once the bridge is paid for, do the tolls go away?

00:59:43 ◼   ► No, they never go away, in fact, they just keep going up.

00:59:46 ◼   ► So that's another reason I'm pessimistic

00:59:49 ◼   ► about reversing this stuff, it's not that nothing

00:59:51 ◼   ► can be done, 'cause, you know, again,

00:59:53 ◼   ► these stories coming out helps it get into the front

00:59:56 ◼   ► of mind, people do have hearings about it,

00:59:57 ◼   ► and some of our representatives do care about this

01:00:00 ◼   ► and try to do, try to make things better,

01:00:02 ◼   ► but boy, it's an uphill battle.

01:00:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think more interesting than this is like,

01:00:07 ◼   ► what data did Apple give law enforcement agencies,

01:00:12 ◼   ► or whatever this was, like, what information

01:00:13 ◼   ► does Apple have to give them?

01:00:15 ◼   ► So Apple runs the push notification service,

01:00:17 ◼   ► Apple has, you know, the metadata,

01:00:20 ◼   ► they cited metadata detailing, you know,

01:00:22 ◼   ► which apps sent and received the message,

01:00:24 ◼   ► and you know, and what, you know,

01:00:26 ◼   ► to what phones with what push notification tokens,

01:00:30 ◼   ► and so presumably, if, you know, suppose

01:00:34 ◼   ► some law enforcement thing is, you know, basically

01:00:37 ◼   ► wire tapping someone, you know, for whatever,

01:00:39 ◼   ► again, I'm not a lawyer, but so whatever,

01:00:41 ◼   ► whatever the modern day equivalent of that

01:00:42 ◼   ► would be called, basically, you know,

01:00:44 ◼   ► wire tapping's, you know, a phone.

01:00:46 ◼   ► They can go to Apple and say, hey,

01:00:47 ◼   ► any push notifications that go to this person,

01:00:50 ◼   ► we want a copy.

01:00:51 ◼   ► Presumably Apple has to say yes, as we said,

01:00:53 ◼   ► so that data, you know, the app sends data

01:00:56 ◼   ► through the push notification service to Apple,

01:00:59 ◼   ► Apple can then capture it on the way to the phone.

01:01:01 ◼   ► I can't think of any other way this could work.

01:01:04 ◼   ► You know, I would assume that they couldn't just, like,

01:01:08 ◼   ► use basically an SSL proxy on somebody's connection,

01:01:12 ◼   ► 'cause I would assume the push notification service

01:01:13 ◼   ► would not deliver those then.

01:01:15 ◼   ► I assume it does some kind of--

01:01:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's just metadata, like,

01:01:18 ◼   ► that's why I quoted the part of the thing

01:01:20 ◼   ► where they said it might be unencrypted data,

01:01:21 ◼   ► 'cause I can imagine, 'cause this is both Apple

01:01:22 ◼   ► and Google, by the way, it's not just Apple.

01:01:24 ◼   ► I can imagine there are some situations

01:01:26 ◼   ► where there might be some unencrypted payload

01:01:28 ◼   ► that is not related to the push notification,

01:01:30 ◼   ► but maybe, especially on Google platforms,

01:01:32 ◼   ► maybe there was a time where there was unencrypted data,

01:01:34 ◼   ► but essentially it's just metadata.

01:01:35 ◼   ► It's kinda like the metadata that we talked about

01:01:37 ◼   ► with the government, you know, tapping phones,

01:01:39 ◼   ► and basically like, who's calling who and for how long?

01:01:41 ◼   ► They don't know anything that was said.

01:01:42 ◼   ► They can't see the contents of it, right?

01:01:44 ◼   ► But they just know this person called that person

01:01:45 ◼   ► for that amount of time, and that metadata

01:01:47 ◼   ► is incredibly valuable.

01:01:48 ◼   ► Even if you have no access to what was said,

01:01:50 ◼   ► merely just knowing this thing happened,

01:01:53 ◼   ► then this person got a message as push notification,

01:01:55 ◼   ► then this person got a message as push notification.

01:01:56 ◼   ► You can start connecting the dots and seeing how people,

01:01:59 ◼   ► you don't know what they're saying, right?

01:02:00 ◼   ► 'Cause it's end-to-end encrypted and Apple can't tell you,

01:02:02 ◼   ► but just knowing how the dots are connected,

01:02:04 ◼   ► that metadata is so valuable and can reveal so much

01:02:07 ◼   ► without having to see any of the information.

01:02:09 ◼   ► And practically speaking,

01:02:10 ◼   ► Apple can't give you the information

01:02:11 ◼   ► because it's end-to-end encrypted.

01:02:13 ◼   ► So this is like the best you can get from Apple and Google

01:02:16 ◼   ► for essentially tapping communications

01:02:18 ◼   ► on these end-to-end encrypted networks.

01:02:19 ◼   ► At least we're not like the UK

01:02:20 ◼   ► where their government's trying to make it

01:02:21 ◼   ► so that end-to-end encryption is illegal,

01:02:23 ◼   ► you have to have backdoors and everything.

01:02:25 ◼   ► We kind of fought that battle in the '90s

01:02:27 ◼   ► with the chips and TVs or whatever,

01:02:29 ◼   ► and hopefully it won't come back up again.

01:02:30 ◼   ► So I suppose things could be worse.

01:02:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, but also, so from Senator Wyden's letter,

01:02:34 ◼   ► it says, "In certain instances, the data that's captured

01:02:38 ◼   ► "might also have unencrypted content of the messages."

01:02:42 ◼   ► For anybody who doesn't know the way this works,

01:02:44 ◼   ► for Overcast to send a notification to my apps,

01:02:47 ◼   ► basically when you say yes,

01:02:48 ◼   ► allow this app to send me notifications,

01:02:50 ◼   ► the app gets a token, just a long string.

01:02:53 ◼   ► And then so on sync back to my servers, it reports,

01:02:55 ◼   ► hey, this user has this push notification token.

01:02:57 ◼   ► So anytime new episodes of shows,

01:02:59 ◼   ► this, this, and this are published,

01:03:00 ◼   ► send notifications to this token.

01:03:02 ◼   ► So if I send, new episode released,

01:03:05 ◼   ► here's the title, here's the description,

01:03:06 ◼   ► if I send that in a notification, Apple has access to that.

01:03:09 ◼   ► And so if Apple's being forcibly tapped here by a government,

01:03:12 ◼   ► the government would have that.

01:03:13 ◼   ► Now, a different way I could send it is,

01:03:15 ◼   ► what you send to Apple is an arbitrary JSON dictionary.

01:03:20 ◼   ► You can put whatever you want in there.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Now, by default, if you put things like title, message,

01:03:25 ◼   ► it'll display those exactly as you'd expect

01:03:27 ◼   ► in like the kind of basic default way.

01:03:29 ◼   ► But you don't have to do that.

01:03:31 ◼   ► You can send it in whatever format you want,

01:03:33 ◼   ► and then your app can have a custom extension running

01:03:37 ◼   ► that's a notification content modifying extension.

01:03:40 ◼   ► When your app receives that notification from Apple,

01:03:43 ◼   ► it'll receive that JSON dictionary,

01:03:45 ◼   ► and before the phone displays the notification to the user,

01:03:50 ◼   ► you're allowed to run on the local phone app,

01:03:52 ◼   ► you're allowed to run this extension for a short time

01:03:55 ◼   ► to modify or add to the content of the notification

01:03:59 ◼   ► between the notification services payload

01:04:02 ◼   ► that you sent from your servers through Apple

01:04:03 ◼   ► with the JSON dictionary and being shown to the user.

01:04:06 ◼   ► So what I assume, I actually don't know this,

01:04:08 ◼   ► but what I assume is that the security conscious chat apps

01:04:13 ◼   ► most likely encrypt the data they send to Apple servers,

01:04:17 ◼   ► and then they have their notification content

01:04:19 ◼   ► modifying extension decrypt stuff on the app side.

01:04:23 ◼   ► This kind of tapping wouldn't work.

01:04:24 ◼   ► That's what I assume is happening

01:04:27 ◼   ► when the Senator's letter says in certain instances

01:04:31 ◼   ► they might be able to receive unencrypted content.

01:04:33 ◼   ► I'm guessing most of these apps probably do that,

01:04:36 ◼   ► and that's why it isn't always unencrypted content.

01:04:39 ◼   ► And it's certainly interesting to think like,

01:04:41 ◼   ► how could Apple, 'cause you know,

01:04:44 ◼   ► Apple does not like when governments

01:04:46 ◼   ► force them to hand over data.

01:04:48 ◼   ► They really don't like that.

01:04:49 ◼   ► They have and they continue to change the security

01:04:53 ◼   ► and design of their services to minimize the amount of data

01:04:57 ◼   ► they have in the first place for governments

01:04:59 ◼   ► to even come looking for.

01:05:00 ◼   ► So it wouldn't surprise me if maybe at some point

01:05:03 ◼   ► Apple changes the push notification service

01:05:06 ◼   ► and the way it works to have much more encryption built in

01:05:10 ◼   ► so that Apple has less ability

01:05:12 ◼   ► to even tap this data in the first place.

01:05:15 ◼   ► - Yep, agreed.

01:05:16 ◼   ► So Apple has since updated their law enforcement guidelines

01:05:19 ◼   ► to require a judge's approval before handing over

01:05:23 ◼   ► these records.

01:05:24 ◼   ► Gruber had called them out amongst others,

01:05:26 ◼   ► but had called them out saying it's kind of BS

01:05:28 ◼   ► that Google apparently required a judge's order,

01:05:32 ◼   ► whereas Apple just took it on scout's honor at the time

01:05:36 ◼   ► that you were really a police officer

01:05:37 ◼   ► and you were on the up and up.

01:05:39 ◼   ► And so they've changed it.

01:05:41 ◼   ► And previously Apple required only a subpoena

01:05:43 ◼   ► to turn over push notification records,

01:05:45 ◼   ► whereas Google required a subpoena subject

01:05:46 ◼   ► to court oversight.

01:05:48 ◼   ► Apple has now updated its guidelines

01:05:49 ◼   ► and now requires a search warrant.

01:05:51 ◼   ► And it reads, "The Apple ID associated

01:05:52 ◼   ► with the registered APNS token,"

01:05:54 ◼   ► that's Apple push notification service,

01:05:56 ◼   ► "and associated records may be obtained

01:05:57 ◼   ► with an order under some government code

01:06:01 ◼   ► or a search warrant."

01:06:02 ◼   ► So there you go.

01:06:04 ◼   ► And we will put relevant links in the show notes.

01:06:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's kind of weird that Apple is so against this,

01:06:09 ◼   ► but then they were slightly more lax than Google.

01:06:11 ◼   ► Maybe they didn't know they could get away with

01:06:12 ◼   ► requiring what Google required,

01:06:14 ◼   ► because you would think like, it's not kind of,

01:06:16 ◼   ► again, it's not really up to the company

01:06:17 ◼   ► to decide what they do and don't comply with,

01:06:19 ◼   ► but maybe Apple wasn't aware until all this came out

01:06:21 ◼   ► that they could have been more restrictive than they were.

01:06:24 ◼   ► So now they are more restrictive.

01:06:26 ◼   ► - Indeed.

01:06:28 ◼   ► So yeah, this is gross.

01:06:30 ◼   ► I mean, it's not surprising, but it's gross.

01:06:33 ◼   ► And I'm glad that Apple has swiftly taken action

01:06:37 ◼   ► to be more transparent about this.

01:06:40 ◼   ► Well, maybe not transparent, but more, I guess,

01:06:42 ◼   ► restrictive is a better word about this.

01:06:44 ◼   ► But either way, it's gross.

01:06:46 ◼   ► Governments, generally speaking,

01:06:48 ◼   ► I don't think they should be doing this, but here we are.

01:06:49 ◼   ► - It's not that they shouldn't be doing it.

01:06:51 ◼   ► It's just that the way we want it to work is

01:06:53 ◼   ► when it's super really important, yes,

01:06:55 ◼   ► but when it's not super really important, no.

01:06:57 ◼   ► And the way it actually works is

01:06:58 ◼   ► as soon as they're able to do it,

01:06:59 ◼   ► they do it all the time as much as they can.

01:07:01 ◼   ► It doesn't matter how important it is.

01:07:02 ◼   ► - Yep. - Right?

01:07:03 ◼   ► So that's what we're complaining about.

01:07:05 ◼   ► Not that we think, oh, government should never,

01:07:06 ◼   ► because this is the role of government.

01:07:07 ◼   ► They should be allowed to force companies to do things

01:07:10 ◼   ► for security reasons in extreme circumstances.

01:07:13 ◼   ► That's part of the function of government

01:07:15 ◼   ► that I think we all agree on.

01:07:16 ◼   ► The problem is when there's no transparency

01:07:18 ◼   ► and no oversight, what we know happens is

01:07:21 ◼   ► the government just does it whenever they feel like it.

01:07:23 ◼   ► And it's real easy to do that

01:07:24 ◼   ► when nobody can tell you they're doing it.

01:07:26 ◼   ► So they're doing it, and they're like,

01:07:28 ◼   ► no one's gonna know that we're doing this anyway.

01:07:29 ◼   ► I just wanna know what my neighbor had for lunch yesterday,

01:07:32 ◼   ► so I'm gonna check his text messages, right?

01:07:34 ◼   ► And the company can't tell anybody I'm doing it

01:07:36 ◼   ► because that's against the law, you know what I mean?

01:07:38 ◼   ► Like, that's not that that's people doing that,

01:07:40 ◼   ► but for sure people are using it

01:07:42 ◼   ► to like spy on their significant others

01:07:44 ◼   ► and other bogus stuff.

01:07:45 ◼   ► Like, just look at all the history

01:07:46 ◼   ► of all surveillance laws and tech.

01:07:49 ◼   ► It is just so massively abused,

01:07:50 ◼   ► and a complete lack of transparency and oversight

01:07:52 ◼   ► just makes that worse.

01:07:54 ◼   ► And the normal, you know, it can be secret oversight,

01:07:56 ◼   ► as in your representatives in Congress or whatever

01:08:00 ◼   ► have committees that oversee this,

01:08:02 ◼   ► but someone needs to be aware of it.

01:08:04 ◼   ► Someone who's accountable to the people

01:08:05 ◼   ► needs to be aware this is happening,

01:08:06 ◼   ► and ideally it would only happen in extreme circumstances

01:08:09 ◼   ► and not just all the time whenever people feel like it.

01:08:12 ◼   ► And I think all of our collective faith

01:08:14 ◼   ► and the government's ability to do that is very low

01:08:17 ◼   ► because we just assume, based on past events,

01:08:20 ◼   ► that they'll just do it whenever they feel like it

01:08:22 ◼   ► and not tell us about it.

01:08:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause that's what actually happens.

01:08:24 ◼   ► Like, it's not like we're just like, you know,

01:08:26 ◼   ► being conspiracy theorists here.

01:08:27 ◼   ► Like, no, we have decades of history showing us

01:08:29 ◼   ► that's exactly what happens.

01:08:30 ◼   ► It's this is not a theoretical, this is just what happens.

01:08:33 ◼   ► - Fun.

01:08:34 ◼   ► Now, speaking more about things that you can do yourself

01:08:38 ◼   ► to protect yourself, in the new iOS Beta for 17.3,

01:08:43 ◼   ► there is a new feature called Stolen Device Protection.

01:08:46 ◼   ► So let's set the stage.

01:08:48 ◼   ► I think it was in the spring or thereabouts.

01:08:51 ◼   ► It was Nicole Wen and Joanna Stern, I believe,

01:08:54 ◼   ► wrote a couple of articles that were really, really good

01:08:56 ◼   ► about how apparently it has become a thing

01:09:00 ◼   ► for thieves to look over your shoulder

01:09:02 ◼   ► or put you in a position so that it is easy for them

01:09:05 ◼   ► to look over your shoulder as you type your iPhone passcode.

01:09:09 ◼   ► They will then swipe your phone, they will run away with it,

01:09:11 ◼   ► and because they have your iPhone passcode,

01:09:13 ◼   ► they basically have the keys to your entire Apple kingdom.

01:09:15 ◼   ► They can change the passcode on your phone,

01:09:17 ◼   ► they can disable remote wipe, but more importantly,

01:09:21 ◼   ► they can go in and change the password on your Apple ID.

01:09:24 ◼   ► So this is not your phone's passcode,

01:09:26 ◼   ► but your Apple ID password.

01:09:27 ◼   ► And then you're screwed.

01:09:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, then they own everything, all your photos,

01:09:31 ◼   ► all your data, all your movies, all your everything.

01:09:33 ◼   ► And in this situation, Apple can't help you

01:09:35 ◼   ► because they don't have any way

01:09:36 ◼   ► to get that account back from you.

01:09:38 ◼   ► They don't have any proof that you are who you are.

01:09:39 ◼   ► You're just SOL, it's just a bad situation.

01:09:42 ◼   ► And I have to say, by the way, that article about,

01:09:44 ◼   ► you know, thieves are watching over your shoulder in bars

01:09:46 ◼   ► and stealing your phone is totally one of those scare stories

01:09:49 ◼   ► that makes people like, you know,

01:09:50 ◼   ► "Oh, I'm afraid now I'm gonna read this thing."

01:09:52 ◼   ► Like, who even knows how frequently that was happening?

01:09:55 ◼   ► But in this case, it doesn't matter

01:09:57 ◼   ► because the story does conclusively show this is possible.

01:10:01 ◼   ► This is A, has happened,

01:10:02 ◼   ► 'cause here are some people it happened to,

01:10:04 ◼   ► and B, it is possible.

01:10:05 ◼   ► So even if it only very, very rarely happens,

01:10:08 ◼   ► it's the type of thing that's like, well, if it's possible,

01:10:10 ◼   ► can we do something about it?

01:10:11 ◼   ► That doesn't seem ideal.

01:10:13 ◼   ► I don't entirely believe that there's an epidemic

01:10:15 ◼   ► of this going on, and suddenly I'm afraid

01:10:16 ◼   ► that everyone's gonna swipe my phone or whatever,

01:10:18 ◼   ► but knowing that it's possible makes me think

01:10:21 ◼   ► there's something that could be improved

01:10:23 ◼   ► about the phone that I'm using,

01:10:24 ◼   ► because it seems like that shouldn't be possible,

01:10:26 ◼   ► and clearly it is.

01:10:27 ◼   ► So that's something that needs to be fixed,

01:10:29 ◼   ► regardless of how often it actually happens.

01:10:32 ◼   ► - Yep, couldn't agree more.

01:10:33 ◼   ► So Apple has come out with, in 17.3,

01:10:37 ◼   ► this new feature called Stolen Device Protection.

01:10:39 ◼   ► If you enable the new Stolen Device Protection,

01:10:41 ◼   ► your iPhone will restrict certain settings

01:10:43 ◼   ► when you are away from a location familiar to the iPhone,

01:10:46 ◼   ► such as your home or your work.

01:10:47 ◼   ► Here's the rundown, writes, I believe this one, Gruber.

01:10:50 ◼   ► An Apple ID password change.

01:10:51 ◼   ► If you do nothing, so if you don't enable this new feature,

01:10:56 ◼   ► a thief can use the passcode

01:10:57 ◼   ► to change your Apple account password and lock you out.

01:10:59 ◼   ► This move is the key to thieves turning off Find My

01:11:02 ◼   ► and wiping phones for resale.

01:11:03 ◼   ► Since you, the iPhone's owner,

01:11:05 ◼   ► don't have the changed Apple ID password,

01:11:06 ◼   ► you can't immediately locate your phone

01:11:08 ◼   ► or remotely wipe its data.

01:11:10 ◼   ► With this new feature, again, only in beta right now,

01:11:12 ◼   ► with stolen--

01:11:13 ◼   ► - And by the way, I wanna emphasize this,

01:11:14 ◼   ► that yeah, you can't remotely,

01:11:15 ◼   ► you can't look at your phone or wipe your data.

01:11:17 ◼   ► Also, you will never have access

01:11:19 ◼   ► to any of your stuff ever again, right?

01:11:21 ◼   ► Like your photos, your purchases, all that,

01:11:24 ◼   ► it's potentially gone.

01:11:25 ◼   ► Because the thief doesn't care about that.

01:11:26 ◼   ► They're not stealing your photos,

01:11:27 ◼   ► although maybe they'll wander through it

01:11:29 ◼   ► looking for nudes or whatever.

01:11:31 ◼   ► But they do wanna sell your phone,

01:11:32 ◼   ► and they don't care that they just locked you

01:11:34 ◼   ► out of your stuff, because they changed all your stuff

01:11:36 ◼   ► on your Apple ID.

01:11:37 ◼   ► You don't have the new information, you never will,

01:11:38 ◼   ► they're not gonna send it to you.

01:11:40 ◼   ► That's why it's a bummer.

01:11:41 ◼   ► - And also, I mean, they could,

01:11:42 ◼   ► like depending on what else they can access,

01:11:45 ◼   ► once they have access to everything else on your phone--

01:11:48 ◼   ► - Like all your bank account passwords.

01:11:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, they can possibly go into something like PayPal

01:11:52 ◼   ► or something, or your bank, and they can take your money.

01:11:54 ◼   ► And there are documented cases of that happening

01:11:58 ◼   ► exactly by this method.

01:11:59 ◼   ► If somebody has your phone and your Apple ID

01:12:04 ◼   ► and your passcode to your phone, they can do a lot.

01:12:08 ◼   ► And that was the real, I think,

01:12:11 ◼   ► the really eye-opening part of this story

01:12:13 ◼   ► when it broke last year, or earlier this year,

01:12:16 ◼   ► the really eye-opening part of that was,

01:12:18 ◼   ► I didn't, like, most people, I think most nerds especially,

01:12:22 ◼   ► we didn't know that with a phone and a passcode

01:12:25 ◼   ► you could reset the Apple ID password.

01:12:27 ◼   ► And so we didn't realize, like, wow,

01:12:30 ◼   ► the passcode to your phone is way more of an attack vector