00:00:02 ◼ ► So wait, this show that we have like our first impressions of actually using the Vision Pros,
00:00:15 ◼ ► I mean, I debated putting all the Vision Pro stuff down in the Vision Pro topic section,
00:00:18 ◼ ► but these are just follow-ups about Vision Pro before we get to the meat of Vision Pro. It's all
00:00:22 ◼ ► Vision Pro, though. I mean, technically, isn't everything about Vision Pro follow-up because it's
00:00:25 ◼ ► a device that we already talked about before? No, follow-up is a complicated thing that you
00:00:29 ◼ ► still don't understand that I could explain to you at length, but you don't want to hear it.
00:00:32 ◼ ► Yeah, we should punish John. We should just do the Vision Pro review right now, Marco. We can go
00:00:37 ◼ ► rogue, the two of us. And this will be John's punishment for putting all this follow-up in
00:00:40 ◼ ► the beginning of the show. I should be rewarded because this is high quality Vision Pro follow-up.
00:00:44 ◼ ► Let's start with Christian Selig, who we do like. And Christian writes, "It was funny hearing John
00:01:04 ◼ ► it's John who's the guilty one. Christian writes, "It was funny hearing John talk about the YouTube
00:01:07 ◼ ► API this week as I was playing around with a different part of the YouTube API for a Vision
00:01:16 ◼ ► YouTube's API limit was 50 million per day. And I assume that's where that comical 1.8 million per
00:01:21 ◼ ► minute other stipulation comes in. After they lowered the limit, they started auditing Apollo
00:01:26 ◼ ► annually to know how I was using it. And I used it a fair bit. And shortly after Apollo shut down,
00:01:30 ◼ ► I didn't do the audit. They kept, and I didn't do the audit, they kept reducing me from 50 million
00:01:44 ◼ ► All right. So explain to me how this next piece of follow-up is related to Vision Pro, John?
00:01:47 ◼ ► Because we were talking about zooming things in on the Vision Pro and how close you can
00:01:54 ◼ ► The next one is weaker, but still. You're taking longer than the actual item complaining about it.
00:01:59 ◼ ► This was about Photoshop. And I was complaining about how it didn't zoom the way I wanted it to.
00:02:04 ◼ ► And someone on Thread said, "Hey, here's a video of me doing it. And it zooms the way you said you
00:02:08 ◼ ► wanted it." And then I sent a video and said, "Hey, here's a video of me doing the same thing
00:02:11 ◼ ► and it behaving differently." And so then he sent me a picture of his preferences with the preferences
00:02:16 ◼ ► that he thought were related to zooming circled in red. And I said, "I have all those settings
00:02:19 ◼ ► set exactly the same way you do." Eventually, I figured it out. It was the overscroll setting in
00:02:24 ◼ ► the Tools section of Photoshop Preferences and the overscroll setting when enabled, it allows
00:02:29 ◼ ► scrolling past the normal bounds of the window. So that was the secret. If you, like me, want
00:02:34 ◼ ► Option Scroll Wheel to zoom where your cursor is all the time, make sure you have overscroll set.
00:02:42 ◼ ► the space bar, then Command, your mouse cursor will change to a magnifying glass. And then while
00:02:46 ◼ ► holding these keys down, click and hold left mouse button and right drag to zoom in or left
00:02:50 ◼ ► drag to zoom out. That doesn't actually solve the problem entirely. If you still have overscroll
00:02:54 ◼ ► turned off, it still does the bad behavior in some situations, but it's better than nothing.
00:03:04 ◼ ► '50 Euro cent' quote is stamped onto the face of the coin." And someone, I presume Russ, provided a
00:03:10 ◼ ► convenient little image there. Economically, the UK is also in this little stamped in the
00:03:21 ◼ ► - And it's called cents, yeah, which was a topic of much debate. And also on the previous episode,
00:03:26 ◼ ► when talking about the core technology fee, which is 50 Euro cents, I said about 100 times 50%
00:03:33 ◼ ► instead of 50 cents. I apologize. Every time you heard me say 50%, just substitute 50 Euro cents or
00:03:38 ◼ ► 50 cents. - That's what happens when we get older. We're all losing our marbles, all three of us.
00:03:48 ◼ ► - I did so much, it was so bad. I'm like, why do I keep saying 50%? 50 cents, 50 Euro cents.
00:03:57 ◼ ► - We were discussing like, why do you have to pair them? Is this a DRM thing? Some people theorize
00:04:02 ◼ ► that to get Zeiss to be the supplier of these lenses, they had to provide some kind of sort
00:04:11 ◼ ► third-party lenses for less money or something like that. But now that we all know much more
00:04:17 ◼ ► about the Vision Pro, it's clear that at least one aspect of the Vision Pro lens pairing is because
00:04:22 ◼ ► the lenses affect how the device works and, you know, like the eye tracking, for example,
00:04:29 ◼ ► and you need to sort of calibrate the device based on the prescription, right? In one instance,
00:04:35 ◼ ► somebody had a, like the Vision Pro thought they had a different prescription than they actually
00:04:38 ◼ ► had, like there was a pairing problem and the eye tracking was all wonky until they got that
00:04:42 ◼ ► straightened out. So it's not just for DRM, it may be for that purpose additionally, but that
00:04:46 ◼ ► whole pairing process is essential for the device to work correctly and track your eyes when you
00:04:52 ◼ ► have lenses inserted. - Excellent. So I believe John put in the notes and I love this, there's
00:04:59 ◼ ► wider lightning and widest lightning as it turns out. So over the last couple of days, people have
00:05:05 ◼ ► figured out how to eject, if you will, or unpair perhaps the cable that goes from the Vision Pro
00:05:12 ◼ ► battery pack to the Vision Pro itself. - And by the way, I'm so proud of myself because the second
00:05:16 ◼ ► I saw that battery and I saw a little black dot, I'm like, that's gotta be a, you know, stick a
00:05:20 ◼ ► paperclip in and eject that connector thing and lo and behold, it was, which is a miracle because
00:05:24 ◼ ► if I had talked about it in the show, I would have said, no, Apple would never do that,
00:05:27 ◼ ► but it totally looks like one of those holes. Well, guess what? It was. - Turns out, although I think
00:05:31 ◼ ► I read somewhere, I don't know if we have the, I don't think we have the link handy, but I thought
00:05:34 ◼ ► I read somewhere that they specifically said, do not put a paperclip in there that you have to use
00:05:37 ◼ ► a bespoke tool. - Yes, of course. It's a very special tool. We'll see a picture of it later.
00:05:41 ◼ ► - Indeed. So anyway, so there's wide, wide light or wider lightning and widest lightning. Wider
00:05:46 ◼ ► lightning is the connector between the battery and the Vision Pro. It really legitimately does look
00:05:52 ◼ ► like a wider lightning point or port. Man, I cannot speak tonight. What is there like 10 or 12
00:05:56 ◼ ► pins, something like that? - Yeah, I think it's 12 instead of eight. - Okay. And then apparently it
00:06:01 ◼ ► also runs at a higher voltage than standard USB-C, which is different. And then we also got word,
00:06:12 ◼ ► but apparently the developer strap is available for purchase. I actually have one in the house.
00:06:17 ◼ ► I haven't opened it yet and I'd actually kind of like to return it if it turns out I don't need it,
00:06:21 ◼ ► but I wanted to order it immediately just in case there were supply issues. So I figure I'm going to
00:06:26 ◼ ► do some development without it, see how miserable I am. And if it's actually not bad, then I'll return
00:06:31 ◼ ► it. If it's like the watch, I will buy six of them just for principle. But anyways, the straps,
00:06:38 ◼ ► so I should back up, I'm sorry. So the developer strap is you replace the right hand side white
00:06:45 ◼ ► piece on the Vision Pro, the piece that goes from the goggly part through and including the speaker,
00:06:52 ◼ ► and then what eventually gets mated to the band that either goes behind your head, over your head,
00:06:57 ◼ ► or both. And that means that the developer strap has to include the speaker all over again. So in
00:07:04 ◼ ► the house, I have three speakers for the Vision Pro, you know, one left-hand speaker and two
00:07:10 ◼ ► right-hand speakers. But the piece de resistance of the developer strap is behind the speaker.
00:07:23 ◼ ► into your computer and then build and run much easier that way. The whole design of the developer
00:07:32 ◼ ► strap kind of annoys me. So the Vision Pro, one of the less graceful things about it is that
00:07:38 ◼ ► you have a cord coming out of the left side all the time running to a battery. Well, if you want
00:07:43 ◼ ► to connect it to a computer via a cable for live debugging, so your other option if you want to do
00:07:48 ◼ ► debugging with Xcode, you want to like build and run on the device to do debugging, you can do that
00:07:53 ◼ ► wirelessly. Just over its regular Wi-Fi debugging, they've had that forever on the watch and they've
00:07:58 ◼ ► had it kind of, you know, in recent years they've had it for the phone as well and the iPad,
00:08:02 ◼ ► and it works fine in recent years, it's just slower. So like any kind of build and run cycle
00:08:16 ◼ ► So there's a pretty good reason why developers want to run cables to their devices most of the
00:08:20 ◼ ► time and the cables tend to be a little more reliable, but honestly Wi-Fi debugging in the
00:08:24 ◼ ► last like year or so with just iPhone development has been way better than it used to be. So anyway,
00:08:31 ◼ ► the Vision Pro, brand new platform, you know, designed from scratch, no cable debugging is
00:08:35 ◼ ► supported directly. So we're going to have this cabled battery that runs out off one side
00:08:48 ◼ ► You want to wire it to your computer with USB-C? Oh, you can't use that. No. You have to instead
00:08:54 ◼ ► buy a $300 accessory to wire this to your computer for development that has to replace the entire
00:09:02 ◼ ► other side arm of the thing and then you have two cables, one on each side running out from the back
00:09:11 ◼ ► of your headset. It is so cumbersome and it's such a weird decision. Why didn't they just enable this
00:09:21 ◼ ► same data connectivity through the many-pinned custom connector they made on the battery?
00:09:28 ◼ ► That's the mystery of the battery port. Why does it have even more contacts than regular lightning
00:09:34 ◼ ► when all it is doing so far is providing power? I mean, I'm sure there's some like there's,
00:09:40 ◼ ► I'm sure there's a small amount of communication pins, you know, for like for the battery to
00:09:44 ◼ ► communicate with the Vision Pro. Right, but did you need more pins than lightning? It's supplying
00:09:48 ◼ ► a lot more power than lightning ever supported, so I'm sure it has to split it up between those pins,
00:09:51 ◼ ► but they designed a custom connector with like with obviously, you know, with probably what it
00:09:57 ◼ ► seems like the future in mind, like future capabilities in mind with this large connector
00:10:01 ◼ ► and then they have a USB-C hole in the battery, but oh, you want to connect to your computer USB-C
00:10:07 ◼ ► or you know, through USB-C to the headset? Oh, you can't do that. You have to have now two cables
00:10:11 ◼ ► running out of it. We still haven't gotten to why this is in this section, which is that the thing
00:10:15 ◼ ► that connects that stiff little developer strap to the headset is another one of those things with a
00:10:23 ◼ ► and what it does is eject the little stiff little things that are on the side of the headset,
00:10:27 ◼ ► and so you can put your developer one in, and how does it plug in? It plugs in with an even wider
00:10:37 ◼ ► many contacts, and I think it's asymmetrical. I think there's more contacts on one side than
00:10:40 ◼ ► there is on the other. What like one more, how many different lightning looking connectors can
00:10:46 ◼ ► Apple make? This product alone has two brand new ones that we've never seen before. They can't stop
00:10:52 ◼ ► it. You know, they stopped making the main lightning connector on the new phones, and now
00:10:55 ◼ ► they're like, "We're itching. We got to keep using lightning. Somehow we're hooked." Yeah, they have
00:11:00 ◼ ► all these machines that know how to make lightning connector. Well, to be fair, the developer strap
00:11:04 ◼ ► one is, I mean, it looks like lightning, but it's not like a dead ringer for lightning like the
00:11:09 ◼ ► battery one is. It is the fact that it's curved, the size of the contacts, it's different, and
00:11:14 ◼ ► anyway, that $300 strap, yeah, it's expensive, but it does come with a special Vision Pro logo stamped
00:11:21 ◼ ► shiny silver ejection tool that's totally not a paperclip. That's going to be a collector's item.
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00:13:24 ◼ ► All right, so with regard to Vision Pro Wait, and we're going to talk about this article in the
00:13:31 ◼ ► future as well, I think, but there's a very good, I thought it was very good Vanity Fair article
00:13:40 ◼ ► Howarth, the vice president of industrial design said, quote, "There's nothing we could have done
00:13:45 ◼ ► to make it lighter or smaller." Howarth explained, quote, "This is the state of the art." I don't
00:13:50 ◼ ► know if that's true, but I mean, I believe it. There's nothing we could have done like nothing.
00:14:00 ◼ ► which we're totally going to do, and there's no way we're ever going to change that there's
00:14:02 ◼ ► nothing we could have done to make it lighter or smaller. And that I believe if you look at the
00:14:06 ◼ ► teardowns, they did a really good job of the thing, just lightweight materials. If you say it
00:14:09 ◼ ► has to be made of a single piece of aluminum carved out, they did a good job of that. I'm not so sure
00:14:15 ◼ ► it needs to be aluminum. Could it had been a piece of plastic? Maybe it couldn't, maybe the plastic
00:14:20 ◼ ► would melt. Maybe the plastic wouldn't be stiff enough. I don't know. But Richard Howarth is
00:14:24 ◼ ► unequivocally saying there's literally nothing they could have done to make it lighter or smaller
00:14:28 ◼ ► when the thing is made out of aluminum and glass. I'm going to give that a little side.
00:14:32 ◼ ► - With regard to peripherals, Vision Pro only works with some Bluetooth peripherals as per
00:14:38 ◼ ► a support document. Apple Vision Pro compatibility with third-party Bluetooth devices and accessories
00:14:43 ◼ ► isn't guaranteed. If you have trouble connecting Apple Vision Pro to your third-party device,
00:14:47 ◼ ► contact the devices manufacturer for help. - Good luck with that. Yeah, and we've heard in
00:14:50 ◼ ► particular this seems to apply a lot to mice and track pads and stuff. Basically, you can use Apple
00:14:55 ◼ ► stuff and you can try to use anyone else's stuff, it may or may not work. - I heard some people who
00:14:58 ◼ ► had some Apple stuff that wasn't working with it until they did the firmware update on the Apple
00:15:03 ◼ ► devices. So even within the Apple realm, you have to make sure your keyboard's firmware is updated.
00:15:08 ◼ ► And by the way, if you're wondering how to do that, you can Google for it. But since I use my
00:15:12 ◼ ► Apple keyboard plugged in, apparently it will never do a firmware update unless it's connected
00:15:17 ◼ ► through Bluetooth. So you have to unplug it, connect it through Bluetooth, and I think go
00:15:21 ◼ ► to the system settings or something and it will update the firmware. And then you can plug it back
00:15:24 ◼ ► in. - Oh, that's interesting. - Yeah, I didn't know that. That's fascinating. Speaking of your
00:15:29 ◼ ► piece of garbage computer, John, Apple Vision Pro's virtual display feature works with Intel Macs,
00:15:34 ◼ ► but limited to 3K resolution. Womp womp. If you have a Mac with Apple silicons, writes Apple,
00:15:39 ◼ ► it can appear in Apple Vision Pro at resolutions up to 4K. If your Mac has an Intel processor,
00:15:43 ◼ ► it can appear at resolutions up to 3K. - I guess I just don't have enough GPU power in this machine
00:15:49 ◼ ► that has more GPU power than any other Mac. - Seems not. - And then related to that, some people
00:15:55 ◼ ► were asking because a lot of reviewers seem to be saying this unequivocally and just getting it
00:16:01 ◼ ► wrong, saying that you can't use the Vision Pro to project the screen from your desktop Mac.
00:16:06 ◼ ► That is not true. If you look at all the Apple documentation and literally I know people who
00:16:11 ◼ ► have taken their Mac Studio and projected it into their Vision Pro, it doesn't have to be a laptop.
00:16:16 ◼ ► Now, when you have a laptop, I think there are some enhanced features like the little floaty
00:16:19 ◼ ► thing over the top of it or whatever that you click into to do the thing. But even if you have
00:16:25 ◼ ► a plain old desktop Mac, you can do the mirroring thing where you see your Mac screen inside Vision
00:16:31 ◼ ► Pro. So don't worry about that. - Yeah, anybody who's using screen mirroring in Vision Pro. So
00:16:36 ◼ ► there's the one way to do it where you look at your laptop and it sometimes puts up the little
00:16:41 ◼ ► connect bubble above it, as John was just saying. But the other way to do it, which is much more
00:16:45 ◼ ► reliable and will show your desktop as well, is if you open up the control center in the Vision Pro,
00:16:50 ◼ ► one of the buttons in the control section of it is screen mirroring for the Mac. And you hit that
00:16:57 ◼ ► and it just lists your Mac and you just pick it from a list. I have found so far that is far more
00:17:01 ◼ ► reliable than looking at my MacBook Pro and waiting for it to say connect. - Moving right
00:17:05 ◼ ► along, the Vision Pro syncs data when not in use. And I actually have a little bit of experience
00:17:10 ◼ ► with this myself. So there's a MacRumors post that says the battery pack for the Vision Pro
00:17:16 ◼ ► also powers Apple Vision Pro when you're not wearing it, allowing the device to sync your
00:17:19 ◼ ► mail photos and more. So last night I was using the Vision Pro in the hotel room watching a little
00:17:26 ◼ ► bit of a 3D Black Panther Wakanda forever, just to kind of try it out and see what I thought.
00:17:32 ◼ ► And I left it plugged in overnight. And when I had taken the Vision Pro off to go to sleep,
00:17:37 ◼ ► I want to say it was at like 80 or 90% battery, something like that. When I woke up, it was at
00:17:41 ◼ ► like 30%. It's like, wow, what the hell happened? And then it occurred to me, oh, I bet it was
00:17:45 ◼ ► syncing stuff. Cause it seemed like a lot more photos were actually on the device than were
00:17:49 ◼ ► previously and so on and so forth. And then I read this in the show notes. So I suspect that this is
00:17:54 ◼ ► all one of the same thing. - Yeah. And it's like for something with such short battery life,
00:17:57 ◼ ► if you're not plugged in, it's important to actually give it time to like, you're like,
00:18:01 ◼ ► why don't I see all my photos? Well, it has to, at some point have time to download those photos.
00:18:05 ◼ ► And we know that all of Apple's photos, things are afraid to do that unless you're not using the
00:18:10 ◼ ► device. So don't reflexively disconnect the power every time you stop using it, because then it will
00:18:14 ◼ ► never have time to download your photos because you're either using it or it's literally powered
00:18:18 ◼ ► off. - Is that the Vision Pro version of force quitting all your apps on the iPhone? - I have
00:18:23 ◼ ► a story about that a little bit later too. Yeah. - Oh no. - Yeah, that's not good. With regard to
00:18:29 ◼ ► performance throttling, Apple is trying to get ahead of the gate apparently. Apple Vision Pro
00:18:33 ◼ ► has built-in software and hardware systems that help reduce performance impacts that may be noticed
00:18:37 ◼ ► in certain conditions, such as a battery with a low state of charge, a high peak power situation,
00:18:42 ◼ ► or a chemically aged battery. The system is automatic, always on, and works to provide the
00:18:46 ◼ ► best possible performance. Power needs are dynamically monitored and performance is managed
00:18:51 ◼ ► to address these needs in real time. The system allows Apple Vision Pro to balance and reduce
00:18:57 ◼ ► performance impacts as much as possible. The user may or may not notice the effects on device,
00:19:01 ◼ ► which may be temporary. Depending on the device battery state and the tasks that your Apple
00:19:05 ◼ ► Vision Pro is handling, some examples of these effects might include longer app launch times,
00:19:10 ◼ ► lower frame rates, reduced wireless data throughput, screen dimming, or lower speaker volume.
00:19:14 ◼ ► If your device performance has been impacted by an aged battery and you would like to get help
00:19:18 ◼ ► with the replacement, contact Apple Support. - I feel like they're really covering their basis
00:19:21 ◼ ► here. We're just like, it could get hot and run low on battery and things are gonna get janky.
00:19:27 ◼ ► - Well, I mean, but to their credit, at least the battery is external. And so it's very, you know,
00:19:32 ◼ ► it's kind of costly to replace, but it's very easy to replace. Unlike most of their devices where
00:19:44 ◼ ► teardown. So the people who have taken apart the battery pack, there's the rating that's on the
00:19:47 ◼ ► outside of like the milliamp hours or the watt hours of the battery pack, right? But when they
00:19:53 ◼ ► took it apart and looked at the actual like little black, you know, lithium ion, bat pouch battery,
00:20:00 ◼ ► it seems like based on what's stamped on that stuff, that the number that's on the outside of
00:20:07 ◼ ► the battery pack and watt hours is 20% lower than the actual capacity. So they may essentially be
00:20:12 ◼ ► giving you 20% more battery, but then lying to you and saying, there's not 20% more battery in here,
00:20:17 ◼ ► like essentially forcing that battery to never go above 80% charge. It's basically like three big
00:20:23 ◼ ► iPhone batteries inside there. So that's interesting if they're doing like the, essentially the electric
00:20:28 ◼ ► car thing of like, this is how much battery you have to use. Yes, there's more battery in there,
00:20:33 ◼ ► but that's not for you. Kind of like how SSDs are over-permissioned or whatever. And I think that's
00:20:37 ◼ ► a really good idea, especially for something with such low battery life as the, you know,
00:20:52 ◼ ► but I will say that when you started down this path, I was like, Jon, nobody cares. Nobody cares.
00:20:59 ◼ ► You're the only one who cares. Nobody cares. And then I was using my Vision Pro in my hotel room
00:21:04 ◼ ► yesterday, day before, whenever it was. And I was doing the Mac virtual display thing where your
00:21:09 ◼ ► laptop is in the Vision OS world. And I looked down at my MagSafe connector and the laptop
00:21:16 ◼ ► was charging at the time. But I tell you what, whatever color that charging indicator was,
00:21:21 ◼ ► it was not the orange I expected. So even though in most cases, I don't notice this at all,
00:21:28 ◼ ► even having watched a modern film on the Vision Pro, there may be something more here than I
00:21:36 ◼ ► obviously one of the reasons I'm evaluating the Vision Pro is because I watch a lot of television
00:21:40 ◼ ► and movies, and this is a great television movie watching device. So how does it measure up? And
00:21:45 ◼ ► I started down this journey learning that one of the areas where the Vision Pro is behind,
00:21:50 ◼ ► not just like good television sets, but also behind Mac displays is that the Vision Pro displays,
00:21:55 ◼ ► for all their amazingness, which we will discuss in a little bit, don't even do a hundred percent
00:22:00 ◼ ► of the P3 color space, which Macs have done for many, many years, right? We'll put a link to the
00:22:05 ◼ ► show notes to show you a diagram of how big is the color space for like plain old HDTV or the P3
00:22:10 ◼ ► color space or the more modern Rec 2021. So good televisions like mine do a hundred percent of P3,
00:22:17 ◼ ► and so do pretty much all good Mac monitors, but they also do over 90 percent of Rec 2020.
00:22:22 ◼ ► The Vision Pro doesn't even do a hundred percent of P3. So for color reproduction, it is not really
00:22:28 ◼ ► up to the task of showing all the colors in that Hollywood, modern Hollywood movie, as well as a
00:22:34 ◼ ► television set. Probably not a big deal, but worth considering this is a first generation thing, and
00:22:39 ◼ ► I was kind of surprised to see that it didn't even cross the bar that good Mac monitors have
00:22:43 ◼ ► crossed ages ago. And this of course led me down a journey of like display specs, because now people
00:22:47 ◼ ► have these, they're tearing them down, they're putting them underneath microscopes. So here's
00:22:52 ◼ ► what iFixit had to say about the Vision Pro resolution. As measured by literally ripping out
00:22:57 ◼ ► the Sony displays and looking at them in a microscope and measuring them, they're guesstimate
00:23:02 ◼ ► for resolution. And I think there's been official resolution numbers, but anyway, I'm just telling
00:23:06 ◼ ► you iFixit's guesstimate based on measuring, right, is that each one of the little eye displays is
00:23:11 ◼ ► 3,660 by 3,200 pixels, and that is about 11.7 million pixels per display, which is roughly
00:23:18 ◼ ► the total of 23 million that Apple says it is. And the important thing that they were discussing is
00:23:22 ◼ ► like, you know, how good does this display look? I know we always talk about DPI or PPI, pixels per
00:23:27 ◼ ► inch, when we talk about Mac monitors and retina resolution, but now once we're talking across
00:23:33 ◼ ► Vision Pro and iPhones and all this other stuff, it's the equation changes a little bit because,
00:23:42 ◼ ► they're really close to your eyes. So all the stuff of like, oh, a good Mac monitor has to be 200 PPI.
00:23:47 ◼ ► Yeah, that's when you're looking at the monitor from like a foot and a half, two feet away.
00:23:51 ◼ ► What about when it's one centimeter away from your eyeball? Suddenly what you care about now is not
00:23:57 ◼ ► PPI, which the PPI for these screens is insane. I think it's over like 3,000. What you care about
00:24:02 ◼ ► is pixels per degree, as in if you look one degree to the right, how many pixels have you just
00:24:08 ◼ ► crossed, right? And there's 360 degrees all around you. So pixels per degree, PPD. And the Vision Pro
00:24:13 ◼ ► is 34 PPD, which is apparently pretty good for a headset display. And it's got roughly 100 degree
00:24:30 ◼ ► And the minimum recommended angle is 36 degrees. So you've got 100 degree field of view. And if
00:24:35 ◼ ► you're watching a movie the way THX wants you to watch it, and like the Motion Picture Association
00:24:39 ◼ ► have similar numbers, the movie screen should be 40 degrees in your field of view. So you shouldn't
00:24:44 ◼ ► really be filling your entire field of view with the movie screen. But you know, you do you,
00:24:49 ◼ ► whatever feels comfortable. Some people like to sit in the front row. Anyway, so that led me down
00:24:52 ◼ ► the run of doing the PPD calculator for all my other devices. I first compared it to my iPad Pro
00:24:57 ◼ ► 11 inch, which I watch a lot of stuff on sitting in bed. That only has 28 PPD when viewed from the
00:25:03 ◼ ► distance that I view it at like 14 inches. It has 3.9 million pixels, which is fewer pixels than
00:25:09 ◼ ► a single one, significantly fewer pixels than a single one of the Vision Pro displays. And it has
00:25:13 ◼ ► a lower PPD, a lower pixels per degree, and an 86 degree field of view at that distance, right?
00:25:19 ◼ ► So Vision Pro wins in terms of resolution, number of pixels, probably everything except for color
00:25:26 ◼ ► reproduction, because again, iPad Pros do 100% of P3 at the least. A 65 inch 4K TV from five feet
00:25:32 ◼ ► away is 76 PPD and 8.3 million pixels. So it's fewer pixels by a little bit, but it's higher PPD.
00:25:44 ◼ ► I don't know. I measured it in my house and my couch is kind of farther away. So I subtracted
00:25:47 ◼ ► a foot or two, but like five feet, you know, it depends on if you're in like a, you know,
00:25:51 ◼ ► some people have their TVs surprisingly close where they can actually stick out their feet
00:25:54 ◼ ► and almost touch the television. But five feet, I don't know, you can adjust it. It's still higher
00:25:59 ◼ ► PPD. Like maybe it's not more than double like 76 to 34, but you know, anyway, we'll link to the
00:26:06 ◼ ► PPD calculator so you can put in the distance because the distance matters obviously. So you
00:26:09 ◼ ► can put in the distance that your TV is, get out tape measure, measure to your couch, and then,
00:26:13 ◼ ► you know, put in the distance if you're curious. And that's a five feet away from a 65 inch TV is a
00:26:17 ◼ ► 70, 51 degree field of view, which is still a little bit closer than the THX wants it. And then
00:26:23 ◼ ► finally Pro Display XDR from two feet away, which is about how far I sit from my monitor,
00:26:28 ◼ ► that's 20.3 million pixels, which is close to the amount of one of the Vision Pro displays. And it
00:26:33 ◼ ► is a hundred PPD at a 60 degree field of view. So the PPD Vision Pro is better than an iPad.
00:26:45 ◼ ► Yeah. And I think, and we'll get to this later as we talk about our experience with it, but
00:26:49 ◼ ► I look forward in general, I look forward to the Vision Pro display is getting much better. And
00:26:56 ◼ ► that's interesting because like they are remarkably good in their category right now. Like they are
00:27:02 ◼ ► cutting edge and super high end in their category, but this kind of gives you some idea of like
00:27:07 ◼ ► how far they have to go before they're really going to compete on a lot of these specs with
00:27:15 ◼ ► Yeah. Cause they're so close to your eyes. Like they're a feat of engineering. Like they,
00:27:19 ◼ ► they showed in the diagrams and the videos that we'll link of like, uh, how many Vision Pro pixels
00:27:24 ◼ ► can fit inside one iPhone retina pixel. It's like these, these pixels are like the size of red blood
00:27:29 ◼ ► cells. It's like, they're, it's so amazing. Cause they're so close to your eyes. I need to,
00:27:34 ◼ ► I need to just clarify here. That's not you being hyperbolic. I read somewhere. I don't have link
00:27:39 ◼ ► handy that no, that is legit legitimately inaccurate comparison. They are roughly the size
00:27:44 ◼ ► of a red blood cell. They are very, very, it's an amazing, you know, and you know, it's not,
00:27:48 ◼ ► not, it's not just Apple that has these displays. So I'm sure we'll sell them to other people once
00:27:51 ◼ ► they fulfill Apple's demand. And the, I think the meta quest pro has something close to that as well.
00:27:55 ◼ ► But, uh, but yeah, moving back from the monitor is a big win. So like pro display XDR is, you know,
00:28:01 ◼ ► or any, essentially any retina monitor, like the studio display, anything, any Mac retina monitor
00:28:05 ◼ ► with around 200 PPI viewed from normal monitor distances is better has finer detail than the
00:28:12 ◼ ► displays, but that's because the displays are just like stuck to your eyeballs. Right. So it's still
00:28:16 ◼ ► an amazing technological feat. Um, but yeah, they, they they've got a little way to go to catch up to
00:28:21 ◼ ► our plano monitors in deed. And then we will put a link in the show notes to the, I fix it tear downs
00:28:26 ◼ ► in video form and, uh, that they had at least one news like blog post about it. So we'll put links
00:28:32 ◼ ► to all these in the show notes. I haven't seen the videos yet, but, uh, I glanced at the, the text in
00:28:38 ◼ ► picture tear down and it was fascinating. I mean, a lot of it, I felt like we had seen in Apple's,
00:28:42 ◼ ► uh, like marketing materials and whatnot, but it's still fascinating. I strongly suggest that you
00:28:48 ◼ ► watch at least the part one video because the amazing thing about it is what it takes to
00:28:54 ◼ ► disassemble it. Cause it, it really, you know, Apple's been, been, you know, talking about how
00:28:58 ◼ ► this is the most complicated consumer electronic device ever made or the most, you know, whatever
00:29:02 ◼ ► words they're using. And when you see this video, you're like, Oh wow, that's correct because there
00:29:07 ◼ ► is so much stuff crammed into the vision pro. No wonder it's so expensive. You know, not only are
00:29:14 ◼ ► they using very high end components, but just the assembly alone on this, it must be absurdly
00:29:20 ◼ ► expensive because there is just, there are so many parts that are arranged in such like all, you know,
00:29:26 ◼ ► crazy custom ways, all in a very small space with probably ridiculous tolerances. Like I can't even
00:29:32 ◼ ► imagine the logistics of manufacturing this. And so it is worth, it is worth watching that part
00:29:38 ◼ ► one video just to see all those different parts that are in there and what it takes to actually
00:29:43 ◼ ► disassemble it. It kind of makes me even more annoyed that the XDR doesn't have a camera in it,
00:29:47 ◼ ► or if it did, it would be a cruddy camera when looking how many sensors and cameras and IR
00:29:51 ◼ ► sprayers and LIDAR things are jammed to that tiny device. It's only $3,500. It's a bargain.
00:29:56 ◼ ► One more thing about the teardowns, one of the more destructive teardown people who just like
00:30:00 ◼ ► damages things as part of his whole shtick, spend a little bit of time investigating the,
00:30:10 ◼ ► The front glass is a quote unquote glass laminate, but unfortunately slash fortunately,
00:30:16 ◼ ► the top layer of the laminate is plastic. And that's there, I assume so that if it shatters
00:30:20 ◼ ► little pieces of glass, don't go flying out into the world, right? Like kind of safety glass type
00:30:24 ◼ ► of thing. But that top level plastic, super easy to scratch like in court. Like I think it was like
00:30:37 ◼ ► Oh, I don't care if there's scratches over my fake eyeballs. What you care about if there's a scratch
00:30:42 ◼ ► over one of the umpteen cameras that are on that thing. So be careful with your vision pros and do
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00:32:55 ◼ ► Yep mine will be the briefest because I have the least time with this but it is now a non-zero
00:33:03 ◼ ► I'm very glad you did. Did you do the thing where you just walk in or did you sign up in advance?
00:33:07 ◼ ► I signed up for an appointment and the first weekend it was for sale they wouldn't let you
00:33:10 ◼ ► sign up for an appointment so I had to sign up for the Monday after the weekend. I don't know
00:33:13 ◼ ► how long they're going to be doing this in the store but I would encourage everybody hey it's
00:33:16 ◼ ► free. You get to try Vision Pro for free, you can make an appointment, schedule some time to do it,
00:33:21 ◼ ► and get all the get-ins good. Anyway I went to do this just to have some experience with it at all.
00:33:27 ◼ ► The one thing to note about the experience is when they were setting it up obviously they've only
00:33:33 ◼ ► been doing it for like two days there's this whole big process that's not that interesting
00:33:36 ◼ ► where they measure your glasses and have you scan your face with your phone and do all this stuff
00:33:40 ◼ ► and then they bring the Vision Pro out with the lenses already in it. It's all nice and appley.
00:33:44 ◼ ► And then they have an iPad where the person who's guiding you through it will be able to see what's
00:33:49 ◼ ► on your screen. And that whole process of pairing, it was like an iPad Mini, pairing the iPad to the
00:33:55 ◼ ► Vision Pro so they can see and stuff wasn't working and I could clearly see that the person
00:33:59 ◼ ► who was doing the demo was trying to hit a button it wasn't working and I got to see right off the
00:34:04 ◼ ► bat when things aren't working what do you need to do? Twist that power connector on the Vision Pro
00:34:11 ◼ ► because there's no on/off button. You can't just turn it off and then turn it back on. You got to
00:34:15 ◼ ► disconnect the power connector and connect it back in. And the person did this a few times
00:34:20 ◼ ► and eventually called over one of the more senior Apple Store people to say hey I can't get the
00:34:27 ◼ ► thing to pair or whatever right. And you know what the solution was of course. I learned this from
00:34:33 ◼ ► messing with my Sonos stuff. You learn this by doing it. I learn this every time I help my kids
00:34:36 ◼ ► with something's wrong with their computer what is the first thing you try? They'll spend an hour
00:34:40 ◼ ► banging their head against it they'll be super mad they'll come to you and say you need to fix this
00:34:43 ◼ ► and then when I fix it they'll say what did you do? And you know what I did. You unplugged it and
00:34:48 ◼ ► plugged it back in? You got it baby. Person needed to reboot their iPad Pro as well. Oh well.
00:34:54 ◼ ► Don't just reboot the headset reboot both devices. Why do I reboot the Sonos? Reboot the phone.
00:35:00 ◼ ► Now it's working. Always turn it off and then on again. Anyway that started working. So putting
00:35:06 ◼ ► the thing on my face. I had read so much about the comfort and fit of the thing I kind of knew
00:35:10 ◼ ► what I was going for in terms of like how tight should the strap be? Where should you feel the
00:35:15 ◼ ► pressure? I tried to kind of make the pressure even between like my forehead and my cheekbones
00:35:21 ◼ ► right. They did not offer the dual loop so it's just the single thing only. So I got that as as
00:35:28 ◼ ► good as I could get it. I did notice and I don't know if this is a prescription lens thing or not
00:35:33 ◼ ► maybe you two can tell me or at least Marco can tell me because correct Marco you don't have
00:35:37 ◼ ► prescription lenses at all in yours? I actually got the reader lenses. I'll get to that later but I
00:35:42 ◼ ► I've been using them. Okay well anyway I have the prescription lens obviously and I did notice a
00:35:48 ◼ ► what I what I thought and I continue to think is some kind of reflection of Apple Store beige you
00:35:54 ◼ ► know the Apple Store beige like the tables and everything right? Some kind of reflection of
00:35:58 ◼ ► Apple Store beige in the lenses inside the headset at certain angles and there is light like the
00:36:05 ◼ ► light guard thing does let light in so there are places where the light is coming in. I don't know
00:36:09 ◼ ► if that was light coming from like behind me like in the gaps between my like temples you know what
00:36:14 ◼ ► I mean? Occasionally I did see that. I assume a more controlled lighting environment or a better
00:36:19 ◼ ► fit would solve that problem but I just thought it was worth noting. It would not. No I've seen
00:36:23 ◼ ► I've seen a fair bit of something that's either a smudge but I don't think it is or reflective
00:36:29 ◼ ► in inside the Vision Pro and this has happened to me fairly regularly so maybe my fit is totally
00:36:36 ◼ ► jacked I don't know but I don't have any lenses in mind because remember my eyes are trash but
00:36:39 ◼ ► the only way I can fix my eyes are with hard contacts and so I didn't put any lenses in
00:36:44 ◼ ► mind. I don't have any in the house you know mine is a vanilla Vision Pro. So for whatever it's worth
00:36:51 ◼ ► so a bunch of reviewers did mention glare issues and you know some you know whether it's glare or
00:36:57 ◼ ► flares or both on lenses that is definitely an issue with even the stock you know no additional
00:37:02 ◼ ► lenses configuration but also for whatever it's worth I'm in kind of a maybe unusual position here
00:37:09 ◼ ► that I have some need for reading glasses at certain distances but not a strong need so I
00:37:16 ◼ ► actually can use the Vision Pro just fine with or without these. So I've actually spent a decent
00:37:21 ◼ ► amount of time with both trying to figure out like what you know what is best and sharpest and most
00:37:25 ◼ ► comfortable for me so I can tell you for sure there is some flare with the stock lenses no
00:37:31 ◼ ► matter what and then also when I add the reader lens inserts to it there is noticeably more like
00:37:38 ◼ ► I like if you if you just like look up and down like move your head up and down you will see
00:37:44 ◼ ► reflections on the lenses it with almost any content you're looking at in almost any room
00:37:49 ◼ ► you're looking at. Do you think it's a reflection like an internal reflection of the screen image or
00:37:53 ◼ ► do you think it's light from outside? I think it's internal reflection but I could be wrong I mean
00:37:57 ◼ ► the and I'll maybe I'll get to all this I'll do some of this stuff early I'm glad I went to the
00:38:02 ◼ ► store because I got to try on a few different face shields and pads because however I was wearing it
00:38:10 ◼ ► there was always a decent amount of light leaking around my nose and apparently what we're hearing
00:38:15 ◼ ► from people is that that's actually kind of to be expected and there isn't really a perfect nose
00:38:19 ◼ ► seal for many people I guess I guess I have an insufficiently sized nose I'm not sure. I mean my
00:38:24 ◼ ► nose is plenty big and I still had that gap. Same and same. It's just the nature of the beast I feel
00:38:30 ◼ ► like it was like some people even arguing like that if you did maybe get an aftermarket thing
00:38:34 ◼ ► to seal off that part that it would just make the environment even less kind of breathable I know
00:38:38 ◼ ► the fabric is breathable and everything but like maybe that air gap actually serves a function but
00:38:43 ◼ ► yeah. Yeah regardless so so there are there are noticeable there's noticeable like glare and
00:38:47 ◼ ► reflections on the lenses whether you use lens inserts or not but there are more of them if you
00:38:53 ◼ ► use the lens inserts. Yeah so the the first thing you see obviously after the eye calibration thing
00:38:59 ◼ ► where the little motors move the stuff to line themselves up is pass through where you see the
00:39:04 ◼ ► world around you. Oh slow down slow down we should be a little more specific because remember not
00:39:07 ◼ ► everyone has tried this so the first thing that happens when you put on the vision pro if you if
00:39:11 ◼ ► it's not yours and you haven't in you've or if you haven't you know set this up for yourself yet
00:39:17 ◼ ► is you see an image that's kind of a representation of the vision pro and it says all right mash down
00:39:21 ◼ ► on the digital crown and what it does is it moves the eyepieces laterally inside the vision pro in
00:39:27 ◼ ► and out in order to fit your pupillary pupillary distance I think I both said that right and that's
00:39:32 ◼ ► correct the distance between each of your pupils the center point of your eyeballs that's what
00:39:35 ◼ ► it's trying to line up the things because it really and it when it's not lined up you see like
00:39:39 ◼ ► a double image and when it is lined up you don't I mean you might again you might have seen this
00:39:43 ◼ ► the eye doctor when they're adjusting the little thing that you're going to look through and you
00:39:45 ◼ ► see a double vision until it like comes together anyway that's that and yeah then it turns on the
00:39:50 ◼ ► pass through the pass through I've seen a lot of videos of people using the pass through and
00:39:54 ◼ ► obviously now I'm using the pass through the pass through is kind of like you're looking through
00:40:01 ◼ ► sunglasses indoors when that it's dimmer and I think that is a software choice that they're
00:40:08 ◼ ► making the real world dimmer and the reason I think it's a software choice is that when the UI
00:40:13 ◼ ► starts coming in the UI is not dim the UI is plenty bright that is customizable in software
00:40:20 ◼ ► and they they kind of raise and lower the light level in different conditions intentionally in
00:40:24 ◼ ► software so sometimes it is like just pure you know brightness transparent etc but like if if
00:40:29 ◼ ► for instance you go to watch video content usually it will dim the surroundings there there's also
00:40:33 ◼ ► some of the environments that you can set are just lighting modifications to your transparent
00:40:39 ◼ ► environment so you know some of them some of the environments you can set are like I'm going to be
00:40:42 ◼ ► on top of a mountain but some of them are just like make my room have fall light or something
00:40:47 ◼ ► like that yeah and just kind of tints the lighting color of the room or makes adjustments so anyway
00:40:51 ◼ ► so that that is that is variable if you try when he's on you're like oh the vision pro display
00:40:55 ◼ ► suck this is so dim it's not the displays believe me it's the brightness is not their their weak
00:41:00 ◼ ► point so that was interesting to note and oh by the way I had some friends who also did the in-store
00:41:05 ◼ ► demo one of my friends said he did this before me he did like I think the walk-in thing or actually
00:41:11 ◼ ► I think he he yeah it must have been the day before me anyway he said hey I tried it and at
00:41:17 ◼ ► one point they had me going through panoramas which I'll get to in a little bit and I got
00:41:20 ◼ ► motion sick and I had to bail in the demo and I was like oh no with just panoramas my friend is
00:41:27 ◼ ► not known for being particularly motion sick and he was getting motion sick and in the you know
00:41:34 ◼ ► 30-minute in-store demo vision pro I hadn't even thought about this in ages like you know VR you
00:41:38 ◼ ► know that's basically the reason I thought about it is we've seen tons of reviews all the you know
00:41:42 ◼ ► people who use the WWDC all the press that went to review it then the reviews that are on YouTube
00:41:46 ◼ ► pretty much nobody is mentioning motion sickness and then I hear like a day or two before I'm going
00:41:50 ◼ ► to do my demo that my friend got so motion sick he had to bail out of the demo and like this does
00:41:55 ◼ ► not bode well for me right so I was so afraid I even told the person I'm like you just to let you
00:42:00 ◼ ► know I get motion sick so if there's anything you can do to like help me prevent that from happening
00:42:06 ◼ ► and I was already going to try to like not wave my head around like a madman or whatever but anyway
00:42:10 ◼ ► that's my mindset going into this so the the UI comes up I'm struck by the stability of the UI
00:42:16 ◼ ► again I'm pretty sure this is the very first VR headset I've ever used but what I have seen of
00:42:22 ◼ ► course is tons of video of other people using VR headsets like the you know they'll post a YouTube
00:42:26 ◼ ► video or whatever and I've also seen tons of video of people using vision pro when they post their
00:42:30 ◼ ► videos and this is one of the weaknesses of vision pro from marketing if you've seen a video of like
00:42:36 ◼ ► this is what the person inside the headset is seeing and everything's shaking all over the
00:42:39 ◼ ► place and it looks janky rest assured it does not look like that when you're in the headset
00:42:43 ◼ ► right because your eyes and brain perform a stability function and what that means is that
00:42:50 ◼ ► like when those icons of the home screen are floating over the table what everybody says
00:42:53 ◼ ► about them is true I am amazed at how non-jittery crap is inside here whatever windows icons things
00:43:01 ◼ ► and what I mean by that is like you're seeing pass through you see the apple store table you see the
00:43:05 ◼ ► whole apple store when those icons plop themselves in front of you they're like a foot in front of
00:43:09 ◼ ► you or whatever over a certain position in the table they do not move from that position in the
00:43:12 ◼ ► table now again I wasn't shaking my head around like a madman I'm sure I could jank it up a little
00:43:16 ◼ ► bit I'm intentionally trying to go you know but but they don't jitter they don't jump they don't
00:43:21 ◼ ► move around they are so incredibly stable and I'm like okay they did a good job with this again I
00:43:26 ◼ ► have nothing to compare it to I'm just saying like objectively with no other comparison other than
00:43:31 ◼ ► what is a real circle hanging in front of me look like they looked very very stable and it's very
00:43:37 ◼ ► impressive on the flip side of that is the part where you take your hands and put them in front
00:43:41 ◼ ► of anything that is displaying a window a background a panorama their ability to mask out your limbs
00:43:48 ◼ ► not hot it is probably the most janky thing that I have experienced inside the vision pro is how it
00:43:54 ◼ ► masks out your limbs granted it's a hard problem but if you want to see something that looks all
00:43:58 ◼ ► flickery and cyberpunk put your hand in front of something it's yeah it it you know it is what it
00:44:04 ◼ ► is it's not a big deal because it really doesn't affect you're using things and believe me like
00:44:07 ◼ ► you're not going to have your arm out in front of you when you're doing stuff right I'm sure the
00:44:11 ◼ ► apple store people would have told me not to do that if I had done it but of course I already
00:44:14 ◼ ► knew not to um eye tracking this is one of my experiences when I was doing stuff I was trying
00:44:19 ◼ ► to sandbag a little bit but obviously I already know how everything works right so they're like
00:44:23 ◼ ► do this and look at that and do this thing or whatever and one of the things I experienced
00:44:26 ◼ ► they'd be like okay just go you know see that x over there look at that and close the window
00:44:31 ◼ ► and whatever uh and I would look at it and the x wouldn't highlight and then I'd look at it harder
00:44:36 ◼ ► I don't know what I was trying to do in my brain what does that mean like once I'm looking at it
00:44:43 ◼ ► I'm already looking at it and they'd be like yeah just look at the x and close it and I'm like
00:44:47 ◼ ► believe you me I am looking at that x and so sometimes it wouldn't highlight and and so what
00:44:53 ◼ ► I would do in those scenarios is I was I would look at it and then I would look at it harder
00:44:57 ◼ ► which does nothing and means nothing but like mentally in my brain I'm like maybe I need to
00:45:00 ◼ ► look at it harder um but then I would just click which is you know the pinching gesture with your
00:45:05 ◼ ► hand then I would just tap and it would close the window but the x was never highlighted so I'm like
00:45:09 ◼ ► so that's how it's going to be basically like look even if it doesn't highlight like I don't know if
00:45:14 ◼ ► it's like the iphone keyboard where it's like you didn't hit the key you want but I know you're
00:45:18 ◼ ► probably going for that x so there you have it so maybe the calibration was over something but
00:45:22 ◼ ► there's that second thing is at one point I was watching video which I'll get to in a little bit
00:45:27 ◼ ► and and there was I wanted to resize the window to make it super big and everything and moved around
00:45:30 ◼ ► and stuff but the windows controls weren't there like normally when you look down below a window
00:45:34 ◼ ► you see the little control up here and you can look at it move the window and you and you can
00:45:37 ◼ ► look at the lower right corner and see the resize thing and I was looking in those places and the
00:45:41 ◼ ► controls weren't appearing so again I would look at them harder and nothing would happen because
00:45:45 ◼ ► that doesn't mean anything or doing it it's like I'm trying to conjure an orb and run around the
00:45:50 ◼ ► line parlor it's like I'm thinking in my head like look harder the control but no they would never
00:45:54 ◼ ► appear and the the uh the demo person was stumped as well until we eventually figured out it's kind
00:45:59 ◼ ► of like a a mac ui where you have to click before it will show the controls yeah I did the pinch
00:46:05 ◼ ► gesture once and then now when I look well and in hindsight it makes perfect sense because if you're
00:46:10 ◼ ► watching a video you don't want every time your eyes wander to the bottom of the screen like say
00:46:14 ◼ ► it has subtitles you don't want the freaking resize controls to constantly fade in and out
00:46:17 ◼ ► as you read the subtitles right and so this prevents that so just fyi a little ui tip there
00:46:22 ◼ ► and then finally they had me they were having me launch a bunch of apps and one of them was like
00:46:25 ◼ ► go to the compatible app section they had me launch an ipad app I think they have everybody
00:46:28 ◼ ► launched the same ipad app which is some like uh yumly like door dash type service right so it's an
00:46:33 ◼ ► ipad app it's running in a window when I you know it had like a tab bar at the bottom of the ipad
00:46:37 ◼ ► app and when I looked at like the home icon and the star icon or whatever they would not highlight
00:46:41 ◼ ► because it's an ipad app and whatever control they were using had no facility for an idea of anything
00:46:46 ◼ ► hovering over it right because you know an ipad app might have something hovering because it has
00:46:50 ◼ ► cursor support but whatever control they were using didn't know about hover so but I could
00:46:54 ◼ ► still use them so if I looked at the star nothing would happen it wouldn't highlight but if I did
00:46:59 ◼ ► the tap gesture it would click the star but there were other elements in that ui that did highlight
00:47:03 ◼ ► when I looked at them because they had kind of a sheen on it so that's an interesting you know
00:47:07 ◼ ► side effect using ipad apps I'm sure you'll both have much more to say about that when you talk
00:47:10 ◼ ► about using mac apps which is something I did not get to do despite asking um one final thing on
00:47:16 ◼ ► basic interactions um and I wrote a whole blog post about this we'll link it in the show notes
00:47:20 ◼ ► it's about spatial computing but uh from my perspective uh indirect interaction the vision pro
00:47:27 ◼ ► does not ask you to go out and grab things for the most part there are some things that do that you
00:47:31 ◼ ► can put your finger out and a butterfly goes on it and in those 3d scenes that we were talking about
00:47:35 ◼ ► you can manipulate things with your weird blinky hands that aren't masked out well or whatever but
00:47:38 ◼ ► in generally you're looking at things and then you're essentially clicking on them by making a
00:47:44 ◼ ► gesture with your hands and it doesn't really matter where your hands are which is an incredible
00:47:47 ◼ ► benefit because you do not want to hold your hands up you want them to just be sitting in your lap
00:47:50 ◼ ► it's way more comfortable but because we are human beings and we're used to reaching out and grabbing
00:47:54 ◼ ► things I found myself even though I knew about this even though I wrote a blog post about it I
00:47:59 ◼ ► found myself unconsciously essentially reaching for the lower right corner of windows to resize them
00:48:05 ◼ ► and that does not work like you know what I mean I'd be looking I'd be looking at video and I'd be
00:48:09 ◼ ► like now I just want to make this bigger and we do it on the max all the time like you're looking
00:48:12 ◼ ► at video and you just grab the the lower right corner and you resize it while you're still
00:48:15 ◼ ► looking at the video I found myself reaching my hand out to the very real looking lower right
00:48:20 ◼ ► corner of the video player and trying to pinch it with my hand and drag it out to make it bigger
00:48:25 ◼ ► and I did this more than once and both times I'm like why isn't this working and I'm like
00:48:30 ◼ ► of course it's not going to work that's not how this UI works so that was a I kind of wish it did
00:48:35 ◼ ► work that way because that would be super awesome but this is another thing that everyone is saying
00:48:38 ◼ ► which is like you have to get used to the idea that you literally have to look at everything
00:48:41 ◼ ► you manipulate which is not how we work in the real world I mean I hardly ever look at my mouse
00:48:45 ◼ ► and even when I'm using my mouse sometimes I'm not looking at the cursor because I know where
00:48:48 ◼ ► the cursor is and I'm using it to resize while I'm looking somewhere else so that was interesting and
00:48:53 ◼ ► embarrassing and we're kind of like when I pinch to scroll a paper magazine uh pinch to zoom a paper
00:48:58 ◼ ► magazine and it does not work panoramas was the next thing uh that's just the panoramas you take
00:49:03 ◼ ► with your iPhone right uh and they look cool because they wrap around you panoramas what will
00:49:09 ◼ ► what they show you is something that I found was one of the defining characteristics of this device
00:49:13 ◼ ► this device will show you the limits of the source material panoramas do not have enough
00:49:18 ◼ ► resolution and this is like the the apple demo panorama so whatever this panorama was taken on
00:49:23 ◼ ► it's the best panoramas provided this is not mine these are apples uh it does not have enough
00:49:28 ◼ ► resolution to look really cool but that's not the the worst thing about it because the next thing we
00:49:32 ◼ ► did was environments where you know you turn the little dial and you can be you know wherever that
00:49:36 ◼ ► place is with the lake and the mountains or you could be on the moon or you can be stuff like that
00:49:40 ◼ ► and for someone who has never been in vr before this and this is towards the end of the demo this
00:49:47 ◼ ► is where we start what I would call the convincing phase of the demo because all the rest of the star
00:49:52 ◼ ► is like oh you've got windows and it looks real cool but if you don't know about the technology
00:49:54 ◼ ► involved it's not that impressive once you turn that dial you might be thinking if you've never
00:49:59 ◼ ► used a vr headset or if you've never used vision pro you're going to turn that dial and it's going
00:50:02 ◼ ► to show a big wraparound picture of a mountain that is not what's going to happen what it's going
00:50:07 ◼ ► to show is what looks to you for all the world like a real mountain and a lake and it's just 3d
00:50:16 ◼ ► like we've all yeah I went to captain eo when I was a kid at epcot I've seen 3d movies it's
00:50:21 ◼ ► just showing a different picture to each eye they had like those uh what are they called um
00:50:25 ◼ ► things in like the 1900s they would you'd hold up to your face there's stereoscopes yeah there's
00:50:30 ◼ ► some other word for them right showing a different picture to each of your eyes is not a new human
00:50:34 ◼ ► technology uh what is new I think is showing each eye 11 million pixels the size of red blood cells
00:50:41 ◼ ► in front of your eyes and that does actually make a difference the difference between looking at a
00:50:47 ◼ ► panorama in this thing and turning on one of those environments is huge and now it's it's probably
00:50:55 ◼ ► going to be like I don't know think of anything that happened in my lifetime a color television
00:51:00 ◼ ► high definition television I remember when I first saw a high definition television that I was super
00:51:05 ◼ ► impressed by it but you the impression being impressed fades and it becomes you know a thing
00:51:09 ◼ ► you're used to that will happen with this as well but right now we're in the impressed phase
00:51:14 ◼ ► and it was something that I had never seen before like literally never seen before because
00:51:20 ◼ ► when have I ever had that many pixels in front of my eyes without some weird dimming or polarized
00:51:25 ◼ ► lenses or like flickering thing or whatever there is no comparison in any experience that I have
00:51:30 ◼ ► ever had of seeing something with that high fidelity in stereo and it really did feel very
00:51:37 ◼ ► different than looking at a big wraparound picture and there's just no way to express that in an ad
00:51:42 ◼ ► or a youtube video or anything like that you have to see yourself and then they they were then they
00:51:47 ◼ ► really cranked it up and they were showing like the spatial video from the iphone 15 pro and spatial
00:51:51 ◼ ► video from the vision pro I think in that order because the 15 pro wasn't as good because the
00:51:55 ◼ ► cameras aren't that far apart and the resolution is low and the frame rate is low the spatial
00:51:59 ◼ ► video from vision pro does better and then to top it all off they do what I think was described
00:52:04 ◼ ► the people at the apple store have like a script that they're essentially reading from the ipad
00:52:07 ◼ ► I think they actually described that as 8k I don't know what that means in this context but the 8k
00:52:13 ◼ ► 360 degree spatial video of like Alicia Keys singing to you or a shark swimming up to you or
00:52:19 ◼ ► a rhino and again there is no there's nothing like that that I've ever experienced in my entire life
00:52:27 ◼ ► it's just two really high resolution HDR images being shown to each eyeball but if you've never
00:52:32 ◼ ► experienced it you should and eventually you will don't worry we all will and it will become boring
00:52:38 ◼ ► and our grandchildren will think it's dumb that we're even talking about it because that's just
00:52:42 ◼ ► how the world works but right now is not that time I urge you to go and try this if you've
00:52:48 ◼ ► never tried all the the big janky headset the heavy thing on your face the windows you don't
00:52:53 ◼ ► care about any of that just go to see a shark swim up to you in this headset when you see a
00:52:58 ◼ ► youtube video of it you'll be like so what it's a stupid video of a shark how many videos of a
00:53:02 ◼ ► shark that I've seen when you're in the headset it does not look like a video of a shark it looks
00:53:06 ◼ ► like you're in the water with a damn shark and I know that sounds dumb I know that sounds simple
00:53:15 ◼ ► meta quest bro you experience this you're already there you were ahead of us you're an early adopter
00:53:20 ◼ ► but I have never done this before and like I went into this thinking I'll try it or whatever
00:53:26 ◼ ► just so I have something to talk about on the show I did not come close to buying one of these things
00:53:30 ◼ ► but I am way closer than I was before I entered that store this experiencing this device in real
00:53:38 ◼ ► life is very persuasive right like very persuasive and what it makes me look I was like look this
00:53:49 ◼ ► the stuff that I'm seeing it's a bunch of demo stuff there's nothing you can get like this it's
00:53:52 ◼ ► not a big deal like but I but you immediately see like in the future there will be content for this
00:54:01 ◼ ► like seeing sports and stuff and from it's like just it is extremely compelling and also the final
00:54:07 ◼ ► thing that I'll say is some of the things they were showing where like you're in a room with
00:54:11 ◼ ► people you see people playing sports or whatever it occurred to me also that media produced like
00:54:17 ◼ ► this like a like a television drama or a movie or whatever will be upsetting or compelling compelling
00:54:25 ◼ ► slash upsetting in a way that existing media is not probably the same way people felt when
00:54:30 ◼ ► seeing something like seeing violence in a movie in you know color right is more upsetting maybe
00:54:37 ◼ ► than reading about it in a book because you viscerally feel more like you're there like a
00:54:41 ◼ ► war scene with bullets flying over in the audio and surround sound like the the fidelity of the
00:54:46 ◼ ► experience can affect your emotions well I can tell you that the fidelity of the experience of
00:54:51 ◼ ► now seeing that in non-janky 3d where it literally feels like you're there and you can look around
00:54:56 ◼ ► is it feels so much more like you are in the room like in an upsetting way and so if there ever is
00:55:04 ◼ ► like dramatic fictional content which I imagine there will be someday in this format for old
00:55:09 ◼ ► people like us who did not grow up experiencing this it is going to be upsetting like maybe in
00:55:15 ◼ ► good ways maybe in bad ways but like like viscerally like imagine if there's like a play
00:55:20 ◼ ► that you're watching but you're on the stage during the play right and forget about stuff
00:55:24 ◼ ► that's not fiction like if you're watching if someone does like news footage from a war zone
00:55:28 ◼ ► in this format like there should be content warnings because it is so much more like you
00:55:33 ◼ ► were actually there than looking at it on a screen there are limitations you can't really move the
00:55:38 ◼ ► camera around that much all sorts of stuff that would probably would have made me motion sick
00:55:41 ◼ ► but apple was real smart in its demos where the camera was either locked off and did not move at
00:55:46 ◼ ► all which thumbs up for me or it moved super duper slowly and by the way once the camera did move like
00:55:51 ◼ ► they had one where it's like the camera was moving like the apple tv screensavers where you know like
00:55:54 ◼ ► whatever they're flying is going super slow towards an island in hawaii or something the
00:55:59 ◼ ► camera was moving it like like really slow if you've seen that screensaver like not fast at all
00:56:04 ◼ ► it moved three inches and I felt like I was like had been dropped out of a helicopter like that
00:56:09 ◼ ► you know stinking stomach feeling or like if you've ever done the sauron ride at epcot or
00:56:13 ◼ ► whatever multiply that by like 100 and it was moving like a half a mile an hour I can only
00:56:17 ◼ ► imagine looking at like going on a roller coaster in this thing or flying in a plane or whatever
00:56:22 ◼ ► it was something else and I know this is all that for everybody who tried this wwc everyone's had it
00:56:28 ◼ ► for a week I used to think for 30 minutes who cares but all I'm going to tell you is that
00:56:32 ◼ ► if you have not ever experienced hdr high-res stereo video of literally anything a stupid
00:56:38 ◼ ► bird someone walking back and forth in front of you you must do this because eventually your
00:56:44 ◼ ► grandchildren will be bored of it yeah you know just to jump in very quickly I think it's important
00:56:48 ◼ ► to reiterate or perhaps further explain that there's several different things that we're
00:56:53 ◼ ► kind of intermingling here you can watch a 3d movie and I haven't watched avatar yet maybe
00:57:00 ◼ ► avatar is different but with regard to like um wakanda forever which is what I chose to watch
00:57:05 ◼ ► it's still a rectangle that does not take up that much of the available viewport but there's a depth
00:57:13 ◼ ► to the image you're seeing there that's fairly similar to how spatial video works it's less
00:57:17 ◼ ► rigid on the edges but there is a viewport to what you're seeing there's depth within the viewport
00:57:24 ◼ ► but there's still a viewport and I have to add because they did that was part of the demo they
00:57:28 ◼ ► forgot to mention they had me watching the mario movie which is a computer it's a cg movie so it's
00:57:31 ◼ ► all 3d um I felt the same way watching the mario movie as I did watching like avatar in the theater
00:57:37 ◼ ► in 3d only it wasn't as bright uh I don't think the 3d in movies is designed with headsets in
00:57:45 ◼ ► mind in other words I think there is less depth like I know that you're talking about the viewport
00:57:54 ◼ ► realistic depth data it is more like I don't know if it's compressed there's something about it that
00:58:01 ◼ ► and there's no reason on the cg thing for it not to have 100 depth data because it's literally a
00:58:04 ◼ ► computer they know the depth of every single pixel in that scene so it's not like they have to like
00:58:08 ◼ ► pick regions like oh this was the live action and this is the cg the whole thing is cg so there's no
00:58:12 ◼ ► reason for it to be like this but it was it looked flat and it wasn't just the rectangle the rectangle
00:58:19 ◼ ► didn't help but it wasn't just the rectangle so if you're going in this thinking you're going to and
00:58:22 ◼ ► again I didn't see avatar either but if you're going in this thinking 3d movies are going to
00:58:25 ◼ ► look radically different they won't they'll look like they do in the theater but uh much brighter
00:58:30 ◼ ► but that is night and day from alicia keys yeah and that's and that's the other kind of thing
00:58:36 ◼ ► that happens so there's a different mode for lack of a better way of describing it which is immersive
00:58:42 ◼ ► is I think the key word that they use here and what that is is you no longer have a viewport
00:58:48 ◼ ► we're not in the same way I was referring to it earlier as you move your head you are looking
00:58:53 ◼ ► around within the scene in which you're watching so in the case of alicia keys you know I was
00:58:58 ◼ ► talking to mike over the weekend and he described it I think very aptly as alicia king's singing at
00:59:02 ◼ ► you but that being said it is incredible to watch and what you're you you are in a studio I think in
00:59:09 ◼ ► la or something like that and as you pan and tilt and move your head around the image that you see
00:59:16 ◼ ► is moving along with it it is a fully immersive image and it's as far as the eye can see now there
00:59:22 ◼ ► is eventually an edge to it but it's as far as the eye can see you know when you first start it and
00:59:27 ◼ ► then as you look around you can eventually get to the edge but it's all around you and in the
00:59:31 ◼ ► alicia keys thing I watched a bit of that more than the demo you know I watched like maybe a
00:59:36 ◼ ► third of it or something like that and as you're watching it you can see that there's these white
00:59:41 ◼ ► pieces of furniture they're almost like obelisks and there's five of them or something like that
00:59:46 ◼ ► stationed throughout the studio and come to realize those are the 360 cameras because over time and
00:59:51 ◼ ► they don't show this in the demo they switch between these different points of view and in
00:59:56 ◼ ► every one of them you can turn your head left and right and the sound which you haven't mentioned
01:00:00 ◼ ► yet john but the sound coming from these these ear pods it is not as good as air pods pro at least
01:00:07 ◼ ► but it is astonishingly good and also the the surround the faux surround is astonishingly good
01:00:15 ◼ ► given that you've got these two ear pods that are solid you know a couple of centimeters away from
01:00:19 ◼ ► your ears it is very very good but anyway so yeah they're these immersive experiences I watched the
01:00:25 ◼ ► alicia keys one I watched the I think it's called highline or something like that it's about a
01:00:29 ◼ ► yep the tightrope walking one and then there's a dinosaur one and I think that might have been all
01:00:35 ◼ ► I saw but um they're incredible they're just mind-shatteringly good because it's like you are
01:00:42 ◼ ► in that scene you are there in a very different way for me anyhow in a very different way than
01:00:49 ◼ ► spatial video like spatial video you can say oh yeah that's about what it looked like isn't it
01:00:53 ◼ ► that's kind of similar to what it was like whereas with immersive you're freaking there it's it's
01:00:59 ◼ ► absolutely unreal spatial video is another example of showing limitations of the source material
01:01:03 ◼ ► it's definitely on the iphone where it's like I think it's like 1080p 30 frames per second or
01:01:06 ◼ ► something it's it's not yeah high resolution well it's not that much better from the vision pro I
01:01:11 ◼ ► think it's actually uh roughly the same specs like it has better space right but the vision pro has
01:01:15 ◼ ► the cameras farther apart like the cameras are eye width apart and I feel like that does make
01:01:19 ◼ ► a difference oh it could have it could have also I mean apple is providing this media so I didn't you
01:01:23 ◼ ► know whatever maybe they just had better lighting conditions for the uh like the one I saw was the
01:01:26 ◼ ► birthday one where they put the cake real close to you um those were not nearly the experience of
01:01:31 ◼ ► seeing the shark swim towards you in the water or whatever but I saw that and I said we need to start
01:01:37 ◼ ► shooting janky iphone 15 pro video of my kids right now right even though it's going to be
01:01:42 ◼ ► janky it's not going to look as good as the cool stuff but like look it's better it's literally
01:01:46 ◼ ► better than nothing we have an iphone 15 pro the cameras are too close together the frame rate is
01:01:51 ◼ ► too low and still we should shoot some of it not all of it we should still take regular video at
01:01:55 ◼ ► 4k and everything but I want to have some of this so that was convincing enough to let me know
01:02:00 ◼ ► it's like unlike live photos and portrait mode and other stuff that apple introduced that I have no
01:02:04 ◼ ► interest in I'm going to do this if my kids will let me I won't tell them I'm doing it um even
01:02:09 ◼ ► though I know this is the worst version of this is ever going to be because it is more emotionally
01:02:15 ◼ ► connecting than seeing a flat photo in some cases right and so I want to have both I'm gonna have
01:02:20 ◼ ► high quality flat photos I'm gonna have good high resolution video and audio and I want to have some
01:02:24 ◼ ► of this spatial 3d stuff that's that's why I think when I look at this like my mind just shot forward
01:02:29 ◼ ► and like this is going to be so boring to my grandkids right this is just going to be something
01:02:34 ◼ ► that's in the world uh just like high definition television is not something my children think
01:02:38 ◼ ► about at all but I was so impressed when I saw the first high definition crt television like wow
01:02:42 ◼ ► looks like it's real uh that's this moment for me and and like the the sports stuff right like it's
01:02:49 ◼ ► not it's not going to replace everything in the whole world but it's it's compelling enough that
01:02:53 ◼ ► as soon as someone people see this they're going to say I will make a place for this in my life
01:02:59 ◼ ► just like we've all made a place for television and the internet and computers and all the other
01:03:03 ◼ ► things that we have that we don't use 24 hours a day and don't consume our entire lives but we make
01:03:09 ◼ ► a place for them because they do something that nothing is done in the same way before or don't
01:03:14 ◼ ► do it as well right so this this you know showing a high resolution high resolution picture to each
01:03:19 ◼ ► eye I feel like is the obvious next step in visual stuff and we've been trying to do it for ages and
01:03:25 ◼ ► this is not the first vr headset and I'm sorry if this sounds stupid for people who've been using
01:03:29 ◼ ► their meta quest for years and years and already know all this but this is my first experience with
01:03:33 ◼ ► it and just so happened my first experiences with these insanely high resolution screens and a really
01:03:39 ◼ ► solid like coherent experience with regard to the demo or well pickup experience I had an 8 30
01:03:46 ◼ ► appointment at the local apple store and our apple store is tiny it's it the all the people that work
01:03:52 ◼ ► there are extremely nice and I really enjoy them in the rare occasions I go in and chit chat with
01:03:57 ◼ ► them but they refer to themselves as like you know the wild west because this is not the fifth
01:04:02 ◼ ► avenue store which I was in yesterday this is not the soho store which I walked by yesterday you
01:04:07 ◼ ► know this is not the grand central store which you and I were in a couple of months ago like this is
01:04:10 ◼ ► a very tiny store and I thought well I'll just show up early because you know they never turn
01:04:15 ◼ ► me away for iphone stuff they're not going to turn me away now and I walk in I say hey you know I'm
01:04:19 ◼ ► early but I have an 8 30 appointment they said wonderful we'll see you at 8 30. oh really okay
01:04:24 ◼ ► yes never never tell them the time of your appointment just say you have an appointment
01:04:27 ◼ ► for whatever it's worth like I also went to a very small like long island store to pick mine up
01:04:32 ◼ ► my appointment was at 2 p.m I showed up at about 8 30 because I like I had something to do later
01:04:37 ◼ ► in the day and so I show up I'm like I'm like I hope they'll take me like I don't think they
01:04:42 ◼ ► even know what time your appointment is for I think they just know your day so you just give
01:04:45 ◼ ► them your name and never tell them the time well because I mean because I showed up and you know
01:04:49 ◼ ► because my store was also kind of the wild west could be you know because long island is the south
01:04:52 ◼ ► of the north it was empty like there was not only was there no line there was almost no one in the
01:04:59 ◼ ► store this was only 30 minutes after they had opened on launch day so the funniest thing about
01:05:04 ◼ ► the store was as I'm walking up to it and like you said Mark it was mostly empty I mean it was busy
01:05:11 ◼ ► for 8 30 in the morning since it doesn't typically open until 10 but given that it was the launch of
01:05:16 ◼ ► a brand new apple product it was effectively empty and as I'm walking in and I see off to the side
01:05:21 ◼ ► oh that's funny they had all the bollards or whatever you call it you know the like line
01:05:27 ◼ ► management the crowd control stuff yeah yeah exactly it was all still on the cart they used
01:05:32 ◼ ► to bring it in and out but it was clear they were prepared for a line that never showed up when I
01:05:38 ◼ ► was talking with the apple store person who gave my demo they offered the same exact thing because
01:05:42 ◼ ► I was commenting on how many people in the store and they said yeah on launch weekend we had the
01:05:46 ◼ ► the line thingies set up and we just ended up taking them down because we didn't need them
01:05:50 ◼ ► yeah yeah because for all you know because we were like you're saying like we were planning on this
01:05:55 ◼ ► to be like an iphone launch in our minds but you know you don't realize the scale of iphone launches
01:06:01 ◼ ► and then you know when they're now launching this brand new thing that's just a totally different
01:06:04 ◼ ► scale product you know the people people don't even know that they want it and also they do know
01:06:08 ◼ ► it's 3500 yeah exactly exactly so I go in they tell me and they're very kind about it but they
01:06:13 ◼ ► basically say looking at the wait so I'm chit-chatting with another person that was waiting for an 8 30
01:06:17 ◼ ► appointment I'm chit-chatting with some of the apple people whatever whatever at 8 30 they say
01:06:22 ◼ ► okay you know it's demo time and I'm like okay and I didn't I kind of wanted to get a marketing demo
01:06:28 ◼ ► but it seemed odd to me like I've already bought the freaking thing like why am I doing a demo
01:06:32 ◼ ► and I think the reality of the situation situation which I figured out after the fact based on
01:06:37 ◼ ► talking with a couple other people that went to other stores and my own store and and just
01:06:41 ◼ ► piecing everything together I think they wanted to do the demo in part to show you like how all
01:06:46 ◼ ► this works but also to do a fit check yeah but apparently you could have opted out of the demo
01:06:51 ◼ ► if you're really forceful about it but they would all but force you to do a fit check to like go off
01:06:57 ◼ ► to the side try on an example of a vision pro with the with the light shield and whatever that your
01:07:02 ◼ ► your app says you need and they would take a look at it and then if you pass the paycheck then they'll
01:07:07 ◼ ► give you your device and off you go I think that makes perfect sense they've got you there in
01:07:10 ◼ ► person anyway and they and like they don't know how well this whole face scanning thing is working
01:07:14 ◼ ► for people who are doing it at home so yeah it makes sense yeah for whatever it's worth I actually
01:07:17 ◼ ► did exactly that I opted out of the full demo because you know I knew I you know I'd already
01:07:22 ◼ ► had some time with it with the lab I attended a lab and then I also knew that like you know I was
01:07:28 ◼ ► going to get at home and just play with it all the time anyway so I'm like you know I and I knew I
01:07:31 ◼ ► kind of knew like okay they're gonna go through the press demo I've heard this press demo a thousand
01:07:34 ◼ ► times I've seen the video of the of the actor going through it they posted a few days earlier
01:07:39 ◼ ► like I don't need to go through this again but my the staff at my store was extremely nice and
01:07:44 ◼ ► extremely accommodating and again there was not a lot of other people there so they had a lot of
01:07:48 ◼ ► time to to deal with me being weird and so I I did just the fit check I didn't have the full walk
01:07:54 ◼ ► the demo they I just did the fit check and you know you go through you do the eye setup and you
01:07:59 ◼ ► kind of just see how it feels and see how it sits in your face and everything and I actually had
01:08:02 ◼ ► them bring out a couple of different cushions as I mentioned earlier so I I went through a process
01:08:06 ◼ ► of trying a couple different combinations of things but they were they were delightful and I
01:08:10 ◼ ► was out of there probably in 20 minutes speaking of fit though is one thing I've had to mention
01:08:13 ◼ ► when I took the thing off at the end of the demo there was sweat all around that thing like the
01:08:18 ◼ ► little that they on when they did give you the in-store demos they put kind of like a I don't
01:08:21 ◼ ► know some kind of like one of those tissue thin things like that you put on a public toilet seat
01:08:25 ◼ ► or whatever yeah around the it's a tasteful apple one don't worry about it but anyway they put some
01:08:29 ◼ ► removable stuff around the squishy face cushion thing and I for sure sweated straight through
01:08:35 ◼ ► that I didn't think I was sweating that much when I was in it it didn't feel like I was sweating
01:08:40 ◼ ► and I can't judge comfort in a half an hour though I will say that it I did not really like for as
01:08:46 ◼ ► someone who doesn't like air pod process they go in my ears I'm not a big fan of having that thing
01:08:50 ◼ ► strapped to my face not because it's heavy but because it presses against my face I'm not a fan
01:08:54 ◼ ► but I also sweat way into those little thingies that I never did get motion sick I didn't have
01:08:59 ◼ ► any problem with that but I was in an indoor controlled environment I wasn't overdressed
01:09:04 ◼ ► like and I didn't even realize I was sweating until I took it off I'm like oh there's some
01:09:13 ◼ ► sweating through the thing but I guess they'll just take it in the back peel the thing off and
01:09:17 ◼ ► you know if you're gonna do one of these demos maybe go now yeah no I asked them about like you
01:09:22 ◼ ► know like the logistics of you know how they how are they like doing stuff between people and
01:09:25 ◼ ► everything and they basically just said like they just have this whole process they go through in
01:09:29 ◼ ► the back of sanitizing everything between each person because you know it would be it would be
01:09:32 ◼ ► a little cumbersome and wasteful to have every single person get a whole new eye cushion just
01:09:36 ◼ ► just for sizing yeah no they're 30 bucks each retail yes exactly so they do have like a set
01:09:42 ◼ ► of ones that they reuse and they just clean them somehow and for the implication was it was fairly
01:09:47 ◼ ► involved yeah it's like at the bowling alley where they spray in the shoes same thing wow and then
01:09:52 ◼ ► what's interesting is like the one they bring out for you to test the fit with that's not the one
01:09:56 ◼ ► that you walk out of the store with they have the set of them that they test the fits with and then
01:10:00 ◼ ► they make sure your box has the right stuff in it and send you home with that box yeah which
01:10:05 ◼ ► actually that's the perfect segue because when it eventually becomes my turn at 8 30 or 8 35 or
01:10:10 ◼ ► whatever I go and I sit and there's somebody there with I think it was an iPad mini which is what
01:10:14 ◼ ► John was talking about which is you know going to mirror what's going on on the vision pro that I'm
01:10:18 ◼ ► using and I explained to them oh look you know I've done the I've done to the lab experience and
01:10:24 ◼ ► I can't tell you anything about it but I can tell you enough that you know it I can do the eye
01:10:29 ◼ ► tracking you don't need to tell me about all that can I just do like the the video related portions
01:10:33 ◼ ► of the demo you know the get me through I don't need the window management stuff just give me the
01:10:37 ◼ ► good stuff and dude was totally chill it's like yeah absolutely no worries it took something like
01:10:42 ◼ ► half an hour for me to get my bespoke vision pro to try this isn't the one I bought to try and it
01:10:49 ◼ ► does come on a delightful little platter which is very very cool and looks neat but they bring it
01:10:54 ◼ ► out it took forever for them to get me mine and I think reading between the lines based on what I
01:10:59 ◼ ► overheard and what I was able to glean from the Apple employee it seemed like our particular store
01:11:05 ◼ ► only had a couple I'm filling in some blanks here but only had a couple of light seals in each size
01:11:10 ◼ ► or and and the light seal in the cushion or whatever in each size and it seems like every
01:11:15 ◼ ► damn person that was doing a demo at 8 30 or 8 30 ish at you know the store I was in all wanted the
01:11:21 ◼ ► same one and so I'm in men's shoes yeah exactly and so what ended up happening was there's
01:11:26 ◼ ► effectively a queue just to get a light shield or whatever the heck it's called I always get it
01:11:30 ◼ ► wrong but to get the the the shield or in in cushion that I needed because everyone else was
01:11:36 ◼ ► using it at the same time they were starting to get not with me at all they were super chill with
01:11:39 ◼ ► me but they were starting to get pretty frustrated about the fact that was taking so long and it did
01:11:42 ◼ ► and it was it was not a delightful experience like the the store people made it as great as they
01:11:47 ◼ ► could but it was not great anyway so I do my demo and then I you know go and I ask for you know I
01:11:53 ◼ ► say okay I'm ready to pick up my device and then it took like a solid 20 30 minutes for that to get
01:11:58 ◼ ► put together and I didn't realize at the time and Marco I think you you said so just a moment ago but
01:12:04 ◼ ► what they're doing is they're filling this gigantic box with the particular components that you need
01:12:10 ◼ ► and then they're sealing it in the back of the store so the good news is you know they're not
01:12:13 ◼ ► making you like unbox it and do a fit check with the one that you bought you know they're doing
01:12:16 ◼ ► this all with fresh stuff in the back like you had said Marco but it took for freaking ever I
01:12:22 ◼ ► walked into that Apple store at eight and I think walked out at 10 or something like that it was
01:12:26 ◼ ► bananas how long it took yeah and keep in mind too like you know this was day one the morning
01:12:31 ◼ ► immediately at the beginning and and and like the the retail logistics of this are so complicated
01:12:38 ◼ ► like yeah absolutely and and again like you mentioned like the people are the retail staff
01:12:42 ◼ ► largely at Apple stores is delightful like they're they they they hire very well they train very well
01:12:47 ◼ ► it really shows like the the people in Apple stores are always the nicest people and and you
01:12:51 ◼ ► could tell like they are that that first day you could tell they were like a little bit running
01:12:55 ◼ ► around with their heads cut off because it was just there was so much you know new logistical
01:12:59 ◼ ► stuff to deal with yep I couldn't agree more yeah and they were you know I noticed when they were
01:13:03 ◼ ► going through the thing I was on the third day and they were still like going through the scripts you
01:13:06 ◼ ► know learning the parts of like they hadn't done this a lot and I was shocked when I went there I
01:13:10 ◼ ► went there at 10 30 on a Monday I think it was and I'm like what are all these people doing the Apple
01:13:17 ◼ ► store don't these people have jobs because I thought I'd be the only one in the store who the
01:13:21 ◼ ► heck is going to the Apple store at 10 30 on a weekday right but they were doing like six vision
01:13:26 ◼ ► pro demos at the same time so they met I got the couches but they apparently got enough vision pros
01:13:31 ◼ ► to run a lot that's all there was in the store was just like one sad person who had a broken computer
01:13:36 ◼ ► and then just a phone or whatever and then just vision pro demo demos as far as I could see and
01:13:41 ◼ ► and speaking of the little tray like you know the little you know there's a special tray of course
01:13:45 ◼ ► there has to be that exactly fits the vision pro that they bring it out to you on or whatever
01:13:48 ◼ ► I'm told but I think if someone said this I'm asked on that if you are at one of the fancy stores
01:13:53 ◼ ► that has the new like colorful benches that you sit on for vision pro that there's like a little
01:13:57 ◼ ► uh like a nightstand or a little like a desk arm thing like a place where they put the tray when
01:14:02 ◼ ► they bring it out to because you're not at a table you're sitting on kind of a bench there's a place
01:14:05 ◼ ► where they put the vision pro on the tray and according to this person the tray has magnets in
01:14:10 ◼ ► it and there are magnets in the place where you put it so it will always be exactly correctly
01:14:14 ◼ ► centered and aligned on the thing that they put the tray down on that's unreal it's really
01:14:19 ◼ ► important that you're doing your I mean I the only thing I can think of is maybe they don't want you
01:14:22 ◼ ► accidentally knocking the tray off or something but yeah they're thinking everything over there
01:14:26 ◼ ► do you think apple might be the world's leading consumer of magnets could be I don't know are they
01:14:33 ◼ ► recycled magnets I don't know oh I mean probably they're just iron but they're not just iron
01:14:38 ◼ ► oh yeah right all the rare they're all the rare earth magnets yeah now they're yeah magnets what's
01:14:42 ◼ ► interesting too like speaking of magnets before I forget this one little nitpick that the vision pro
01:14:48 ◼ ► hardware design has the light shield and then the pad on the front of the light shield both attaching
01:14:56 ◼ ► to each other and then the headset via magnets the way you would naturally pick up this device
01:15:02 ◼ ► yeah I think in many cases you would pick it up by the light seal apple clearly knows this because
01:15:10 ◼ ► they tell you so many times the correct way to pick it up with like two fingers what you
01:15:16 ◼ ► basically pick it up by like the nose bridge and the top center of of the actual you know you pick
01:15:21 ◼ ► it up by the aluminum part yes and you can tell because like one time I did accidentally pick it
01:15:25 ◼ ► up a little bit by the light seal and it just popped right off I'm like oh yeah I think they
01:15:28 ◼ ► calibrated it to the magnets to be weaker so that you don't that you literally can't pick it up by
01:15:34 ◼ ► the because if they had if they're like oh they should make the magnets that's just asking for an
01:15:37 ◼ ► accent I think they made them as light as they could nobody but the problem is you can pick it
01:15:42 ◼ ► up by the light seal and then it will fall down really I guess the thing was so loose that I felt
01:15:46 ◼ ► like you couldn't even lift it up from it those magnets are not strong maybe they need to make
01:15:49 ◼ ► them even looser because it's not like that like it's it's under compression when it's on your face
01:15:54 ◼ ► so it's not like it really needs much to just be positively aligned but they yeah they need to make
01:15:58 ◼ ► it so loose that it is literally impossible for you to pick it up by that because it is going to
01:16:02 ◼ ► come off no I think they need to have that just attached via latches like there has to be you know
01:16:06 ◼ ► have a release button somewhere like have it be mechanically attached have both pieces not magnetic
01:16:11 ◼ ► because the number of people who are going to drop and break their vision pros because of that
01:16:16 ◼ ► I think is going to be substantial and that that's that's that's just a bad design like that that
01:16:21 ◼ ► should really be more physically secure maybe people will pick it up by the strap and you can't
01:16:25 ◼ ► pick it up by the strap I guess yeah but trust me this a lot of there's gonna be a lot of broken
01:16:30 ◼ ► vision pros because people pick it up by the light ship by the light seal I guarantee it all right so
01:16:34 ◼ ► that was my my in-store experience like it was not stupendous but like Marco had said you know it's
01:16:39 ◼ ► the beginning it was the early in the day you know there it was said I was set up for failure
01:16:43 ◼ ► you know head to toe top to bottom but then that's okay I did get to you know use it a bit over the
01:16:50 ◼ ► weekend I did some demos for friends and that mostly went okay but most of my exposure to the
01:16:57 ◼ ► vision pro because I've had such a busy weekend and then a few days when I was in New York most
01:17:01 ◼ ► of my a lot of my exposure was over the last couple of evenings before bed and on the train
01:17:05 ◼ ► but I'd like to save that until after Marco how is your you've mostly covered your pickup experience
01:17:10 ◼ ► but what have you been doing over the last few days with this thing so I want to start just with
01:17:15 ◼ ► like the the eye can you know I set up you know how does it look how you know what's the physical
01:17:22 ◼ ► reality of this so again with the disclaimer that I do have prescribed a need for reading glasses
01:17:29 ◼ ► for things that I that I hold close to my face you know maybe a distance of you know it's less
01:17:34 ◼ ► than my arm distance but it's not that much less than my arm distance and it's a very it's a minor
01:17:39 ◼ ► it's like a 0.75 reader prescription for that distance so it's it's a fairly minor and and light
01:17:45 ◼ ► reading prescription so that being said the vision pro I cannot really get it to look very sharp most
01:17:53 ◼ ► of the time and I've heard a couple of other people say this or say similar things so I think it's not
01:17:59 ◼ ► just me somewhat it might just be like the limits of the displays of just which parts when you say
01:18:05 ◼ ► not sharp like give me an example I see that and it looks doesn't look sharp to me where I notice
01:18:10 ◼ ► it most is actually in the immersive video content and so I'm not sure if it's the limitation of the
01:18:15 ◼ ► resolution of the content or if it's the device but also like I've seen I've had similar issues
01:18:21 ◼ ► with the quest headsets when I've tried them the main issue is like stuff in the center of the
01:18:28 ◼ ► of the screen is fairly sharp as I look at things more towards the edges of my field of view it's
01:18:34 ◼ ► less sharp and there's also a lot more like color fringing that that I see along the periphery of
01:18:41 ◼ ► the view and again so I don't know how much of that is the optics that everyone sees or how much
01:18:45 ◼ ► that is just my eyes is this with or without the lenses in it so I've tried it both ways so I I got
01:18:51 ◼ ► the Zeiss reader inserts that are for that range the 0.75 to 1.25 I think so I got those and I've
01:18:58 ◼ ► used it about half the time with those about a half time without those and every time I swap them
01:19:03 ◼ ► I go and recalibrate everything and go through all that just to make sure I'm giving it the best
01:19:06 ◼ ► possible chance I've tried both straps different tightness levels both the regular cushion and in
01:19:14 ◼ ► the box they give you a regular depth cushion and like an extra deep it's like the w plus or the n
01:19:19 ◼ ► plus cushion and the vision pro once yelled at me that I my eyes were too close once I once I
01:19:25 ◼ ► inserted the reader lenses it said my eyes are not too close I think my my glorious eyelashes might
01:19:30 ◼ ► have been hitting the glass you don't want that and so it says you should really use the w plus
01:19:35 ◼ ► cushion so I switched to that so I've tried a lot of different combinations and I again I've done
01:19:40 ◼ ► as much like recalibration and adjustment and everything as I possibly can and it's hard for
01:19:45 ◼ ► me to get everything to look sharp but it's close enough now that like like the native UI elements
01:19:52 ◼ ► the windows the text like that kind of stuff looks sharp enough like that it looks pretty sharp where
01:19:57 ◼ ► I have issues is again the periphery of the view and a lot of the like immersive video content that
01:20:03 ◼ ► that's a little bit tricky for me speaking of sharpness and the video content one of the things
01:20:08 ◼ ► that I did when they were showing one of the first quote unquote 8k whatever immersive videos is I
01:20:13 ◼ ► looked all the way to my left to see essentially where the horseshoe of the viewport ends like if
01:20:18 ◼ ► you can imagine like a billboard in front of you wrapped around you in a u-shape you can if you
01:20:22 ◼ ► look all the way to the left find where the edge of that billboard is like and same thing if you
01:20:26 ◼ ► look down in front of you you can see where it essentially intersects with the desk that's in
01:20:29 ◼ ► front of you or whatever anyway I made it a point of looking at those intersections and I think two
01:20:34 ◼ ► things were working for me here one the pass-through is another example of this device being limited by
01:20:40 ◼ ► the source material because the pass-through cameras are not up to the resolution on these
01:20:45 ◼ ► displays like they it looks kind of potato-y um because I think it's just because the cameras
01:20:50 ◼ ► aren't good enough right uh so whatever fine um it's more important for it to be in sync it is
01:20:55 ◼ ► but then when I looked at the edge the edge of the big wraparound billboard the edge of that
01:21:00 ◼ ► billboard of whatever Alicia Keys room or whatever the thing was in was so razor sharp I must have
01:21:05 ◼ ► stared at it for an amount of time that the demo person was like why is this person looking at
01:21:09 ◼ ► don't they realize the action is happening in front of them I looked at the like rounded corner and
01:21:14 ◼ ► razor sharp edge of this giant billboard that was wrapping around me I'm like how can that be so
01:21:18 ◼ ► sharp and I'm looking for chromatic aberration right I'm looking for the things you're talking
01:21:21 ◼ ► about it was so razor sharp and it may just be because the background was the pass-through was
01:21:26 ◼ ► potato-y and dim whereas Alicia Keys was being fed from a file that's on the device and did not have
01:21:32 ◼ ► to deal with the go through the camera but it looked so sharp so like I cut myself on it I was
01:21:38 ◼ ► like I cannot believe the the resolution of this thing on the other hand when I was scrolling safari
01:21:43 ◼ ► I'm like ah this text is you know this text could be better like my xdr looks safari looks better on
01:21:48 ◼ ► my xdr but whatever the hell they're doing with the hdr video and the edge treatment of that thing
01:21:52 ◼ ► thumbs up so I guess whatever sharpness problems you were having because if you think about
01:21:57 ◼ ► periphery I'm turning my head but I'm also turning my eyes mostly because I was kind of embarrassed
01:22:01 ◼ ► to be looking literally to my left when Alicia Keys is in front of me or whatever I think I
01:22:06 ◼ ► was looking at the edge of the the tiny screen while also looking at the edge of that thing
01:22:11 ◼ ► and sharpness absolutely did not suffer and also I never noticed the foveated rendering I also never
01:22:17 ◼ ► noticed which obviously was happening every time I look anywhere but I was never able to catch it
01:22:21 ◼ ► some people said they've been able to catch it but maybe I was just too wowed but I I never caught it
01:22:26 ◼ ► like following my focus and rendering you know what I mean I mean so on some level I am kind of
01:22:32 ◼ ► relieved to hear that it's not a problem inherent to the hardware on another level this sucks
01:22:37 ◼ ► because I can't get it to look as good as your is it's looking to you I mean people have said that
01:22:40 ◼ ► they've seen chromatic reverberation and people who have like analyzed it like by machine and not
01:22:44 ◼ ► vision it could just be my vision is too crappy to notice it but I I stared at it for a while you
01:22:49 ◼ ► couldn't not notice the level that I'm seeing maybe it's because my regular vision is not as
01:22:52 ◼ ► sharp as yours right and it's just it's it it passes the bar for me or whatever but people have
01:22:58 ◼ ► like there's a tremendous amount of processing going on with that image that these people who
01:23:03 ◼ ► are like analyzing it but like shoving like a camera up to the thing and fooling it into running
01:23:06 ◼ ► you can see all the tricks that it's doing but whatever tricks it was doing those tricks worked
01:23:11 ◼ ► on me well I'm I'm glad I I hope at some point there's a version of this that I can see very
01:23:18 ◼ ► sharply as sharply as you seem to be seeing it because again like the rest of my eyesight is as
01:23:22 ◼ ► far as I know perfect like you know I'm 20/20 for everything else just like you know I'm I'm 41 I
01:23:27 ◼ ► need reading glasses for things up close now that's it so I don't know what it is but again I've had
01:23:32 ◼ ► the same problem with the quest headsets I've tried oh well we'll move on because you know this
01:23:37 ◼ ► sounds like it's just a me problem which again is frustrating it doesn't get worse over time no like
01:23:42 ◼ ► if you're in it for an hour no it stays exactly the same the whole time from the beginning to end
01:23:46 ◼ ► anyway so otherwise like you know comfort and fit wise otherwise I have not any real problems with
01:23:53 ◼ ► it I haven't been I haven't used it for like a whole movie yet I haven't had time to like watch
01:23:58 ◼ ► an entire movie front you know beginning to end so maybe after a long time I might you know I might
01:24:02 ◼ ► start to feel the weight but so far for me comfort wise it's fine I would love it to be lighter of
01:24:07 ◼ ► course like everyone else but I can deal with it I've tried both straps that you know the little
01:24:11 ◼ ► two strap version and this and the big fancy singular solar strap they're both totally fine
01:24:17 ◼ ► for me in different ways neither one of them seems to have any major problems on me so that's good I
01:24:21 ◼ ► mean it's probably you know I have neither hair nor makeup so that helps I think with all the
01:24:28 ◼ ► strap issues but otherwise like that's been fine moving on to the tv and movies a little bit you
01:24:33 ◼ ► know I was just saying like it was actually fairly difficult for me to watch the what you're
01:24:39 ◼ ► describing like the 3d immersive videos like with the have like the 180 degree field of view
01:24:44 ◼ ► because two reasons I think I've had trouble with them so I watched Alicia Keys I watched
01:24:50 ◼ ► the High Line I think there's one more that I watch oh the dinosaur one with like the those
01:24:54 ◼ ► weird like bird dinosaur things in the sand the problem I have two issues with these number one
01:25:00 ◼ ► is that what they're shooting looks like a 3d scene that you are freely in and can look around
01:25:07 ◼ ► because it's the 180 degree field of view but it was still shot with cinematic cameras and a
01:25:13 ◼ ► cinematic style and what that means is there is shallow depth of field very frequently because
01:25:19 ◼ ► that's how things are shot on video and that's partly optics it's partly a creative choice
01:25:24 ◼ ► but there are certain things in the video that the filmmaker chose to make in focus in each scene
01:25:29 ◼ ► and certain things that they didn't but if you're looking at a scene that takes up your entire field
01:25:34 ◼ ► of view and that you feel immersed in I kind of feel like I should be able to look around the
01:25:37 ◼ ► scene and look at anything and what I'm looking at should be naturally in focus the way it would
01:25:42 ◼ ► be if I was there looking at it I meant to mention that a lot the most convincing 3d ones I've seen
01:25:47 ◼ ► and I also think their environments benefit from essentially having a really narrow aperture in
01:25:52 ◼ ► camera thing where the depth of field is huge which what that means is that things are in focus
01:25:57 ◼ ► one foot from you two feet five feet ten feet all in focus because the aperture on the camera is
01:26:03 ◼ ► very narrow and the only light rays of light that go in it are the ones that are so called linear
01:26:06 ◼ ► but anyway like that works best for exactly that reason because unless it's not clear where it
01:26:13 ◼ ► tracks where you look but the as we've discussed at length of the past the focal distance is always
01:26:17 ◼ ► the same and yeah it knows where you're looking but it does not currently change the focus like
01:26:23 ◼ ► you could have like a light field video or something that could change the focus or something
01:26:26 ◼ ► that's not how this works right so when you're looking at the video you look at that blurry part
01:26:29 ◼ ► it is never going to not be blurry it is it's blurry in the video it's a h.265 compressed file
01:26:33 ◼ ► it's playing for each of your eyes and that video you're looking at you can look at it all you want
01:26:37 ◼ ► it's going to be exactly as blurry as it is in that encoded video file and the environments like
01:26:42 ◼ ► by the lakeside type thing i think part of the reason they look so amazing is they've somehow
01:26:46 ◼ ► taken it so that like everything is in focus the dirt on your feet is in focus well those
01:26:51 ◼ ► environments are rendered they're not video yeah there you go that's why like our friend
01:26:57 ◼ ► steve tratton smith like found like it's all they're all like you know i think they're like
01:27:00 ◼ ► you know reality 3d whatever scenes like they so the reason with the environments look so good it
01:27:06 ◼ ► because and if you think about it for a second it makes sense in those environments you can shift
01:27:11 ◼ ► your head around a little bit to like you know you can shift your head left right in out and
01:27:16 ◼ ► the environment the view the environment you can you can like kind of look around the edge of the
01:27:20 ◼ ► rock that you're that you're next to or whatever so which you can't do in recorded 2d video right
01:27:24 ◼ ► so it kind of has to be a 3d rendered environment or have other some other kind of ridiculous some
01:27:30 ◼ ► other kind of composite i don't actually know how they're doing it yeah but whatever it is like the
01:27:34 ◼ ► the the environments that you can like you know set as your background those seem to be just 3d
01:27:40 ◼ ► renders of very high quality you know so maybe they captured it with some really good cameras
01:27:44 ◼ ► and then modeled it after who knows but those are renders not videos when i'm actually watching
01:27:49 ◼ ► videos i do i find that i have this problem a lot where like what i'm focusing on is not what they
01:27:54 ◼ ► focused on and it kind of breaks the illusion for me and makes me feel like i almost like feel like
01:28:00 ◼ ► i'm getting eye strain trying to trying to watch it yeah that's also one of the problems with like
01:28:04 ◼ ► the mario movie because it's a similar type of thing there's like shallow depth of field in a
01:28:07 ◼ ► particular shot or whatever and it looks 3d ish but it's the same thing you know if you watch any
01:28:11 ◼ ► 3d movie in the theater it's exactly the same problem if you if you decide that what you're
01:28:15 ◼ ► interested in is something that is not in focus it will never be in focus because it is just one flat
01:28:19 ◼ ► video uh and you know there are technologies that allow uh you to focus on different ports like the
01:28:25 ◼ ► light field camera things that have like a million lenses and you take one photograph and then you
01:28:28 ◼ ► can put different areas in focus and this is not portrait mode where it just blurs crap it's
01:28:32 ◼ ► different than that it gathers the light information for all those different depths of field
01:28:40 ◼ ► that facebook has done a lot of research into which is hey when we know where they're looking
01:28:44 ◼ ► change the focal distance you could achieve what we're you know what you get what maybe
01:28:49 ◼ ► our great-grandchildren will get which is wherever i look when i refocus my eyeballs i can see the
01:28:55 ◼ ► blurry things like that that is technologically within our reach but it would cost you know
01:28:59 ◼ ► twenty thousand dollars and still kind of be janky so apple kind of hit the sweet spot here where it's
01:29:02 ◼ ► like fixed focal distance uh the stuff that looks best is the stuff that's in focus and every
01:29:07 ◼ ► everywhere uh and if you look at something that's not like that uh it'll be like watching you know
01:29:13 ◼ ► avatar in the movie theater where yeah some things are going to be out of focus don't spend time
01:29:16 ◼ ► staring at them yeah and so for whatever it's worth so like a 3d movie like avatar like that
01:29:22 ◼ ► kind of like before i had watched it in the vision pro i had never seen a 3d movie ever anywhere not
01:29:27 ◼ ► in the not in the theater not on some weird tv from ces 15 years ago like never so i was looking
01:29:32 ◼ ► through like you know what's available and it turns out um the uh the three most recent star
01:29:37 ◼ ► wars trilogy movies episode seven eight and nine those are all available in 3d i know i like them
01:29:42 ◼ ► hey it's just i don't want to hear it i like them and you know what i like all three of them and
01:29:47 ◼ ► screw you anyways no i'm saying for that so that for the uh no that's not what i'm groaning about
01:29:51 ◼ ► i love the first one okay the third one is bad but anyway i like it it's because it's the 3d
01:29:56 ◼ ► right so here's the thing cg movies like i said could in theory have perfect 3d because it's
01:30:00 ◼ ► literally a 3d scene in a computer and it knows the depth of every single pixel but for live
01:30:05 ◼ ► action movies that are quote-unquote shot in 3d especially older ones they would not cheat but
01:30:11 ◼ ► like yeah they use a stereoscopic camera for this but the background plate is flat and they could
01:30:15 ◼ ► end up having that kind of like effect that you get in like uh what is it called the uh
01:30:19 ◼ ► disney animation thing where you have multiple uh multi-plane stuff parallax yeah parallax right um
01:30:26 ◼ ► so it can sometimes look like you're looking at a diorama like some 3d things on top of a 2d plane
01:30:31 ◼ ► that's behind a 2d plane i again the mario movie i don't know why it looked like that that must have
01:30:36 ◼ ► been a choice they made to sort of flatten out the 3d and to make it look more like a you know a bunch
01:30:40 ◼ ► of parallax uh 2d animation but older especially older 3d movies i don't know if it's a star wars
01:30:45 ◼ ► movies in particular because i haven't seen them in 3d but especially older 3d movies they're from
01:30:48 ◼ ► sort of the dawn of 3d that are not avatar caliber and not all cg can look a little bit like you're
01:30:55 ◼ ► looking at a toy box with a bunch of paper cutouts that are stacked in front of each other which is
01:30:58 ◼ ► cool but it is not the full 3d experience but anyway you think the full didn't the star wars
01:31:03 ◼ ► movies didn't look like that to you so i only watched like you know a few minutes of force
01:31:07 ◼ ► awakens i don't have time for what's the whole thing but i was pretty impressed by how it looked
01:31:12 ◼ ► like i because i had heard that complaint about 3d movies in general i didn't know if the if it
01:31:16 ◼ ► has that problem it wasn't enough for me to notice it but again this was only over a few minutes but
01:31:20 ◼ ► i will say my experience of watching the 3d star wars movie in the regular like you know movie
01:31:26 ◼ ► rectangle that's floating in a fixed space optically speaking that was way better for me
01:31:32 ◼ ► than the fully immersive 180 degree video views i didn't have the sharpness problems that i have
01:31:37 ◼ ► with the 180 degree videos i didn't have as much like you know weird issues with me focusing on
01:31:42 ◼ ► things that were actually soft in the video like i didn't have any of those issues when i was
01:31:46 ◼ ► watching 3d star wars so i i think for me personally this this is a much more compelling device for
01:31:53 ◼ ► movies like for regular movies or 3d regular movies rather than the filmed immersive video
01:32:00 ◼ ► but that being said what i like better than both of those is the rendered environments that you
01:32:05 ◼ ► can sit in and have your podcast playing in or what or you know put in your notes document or
01:32:09 ◼ ► whatever i love those environments and i really hope apple continues to add more of those on a
01:32:15 ◼ ► regular basis i would i would absolutely love more of those same when i came out of that store i said
01:32:20 ◼ ► national geographic should be selling packs of these for 25 they will make a bazillion dollars
01:32:26 ◼ ► like just the environments like because this is a consumable this is the this is that you're
01:32:29 ◼ ► wondering what the beer drinking app is for the vision pro it's this those environments and again
01:32:34 ◼ ► if you're thinking like what is it just like you're looking at a big picture of mountains
01:32:37 ◼ ► around you no that is not what it's like i cannot tell you how much that is not what it's like no
01:32:41 ◼ ► and if they sold packs of those i would be throwing i you know five dollars to one ten dollars
01:32:47 ◼ ► to one like and what is the cost of this some fancy camera equipment or 3d you know thing like
01:32:53 ◼ ► like there there is you know making one of these good is probably costly but a good 3d artist can
01:32:58 ◼ ► probably do it and oh boy i i would spend so much money on those because they are so compelling to
01:33:03 ◼ ► just sit there and you're like so what do you do like you just turn it on and then you're there
01:33:06 ◼ ► like yeah that's it that's literally it well you can that can you that can be it you can just sit
01:33:11 ◼ ► there or you can open up windows and work there like it you know and then it's like you're working
01:33:17 ◼ ► on a mountain or whatever like that's you can totally and and yeah though i am with you i that
01:33:21 ◼ ► is possibly my favorite thing to do on vision pro is just go those environments and just hang out
01:33:26 ◼ ► or do something simple like that that i think is a huge market for vision pro is kind of just
01:33:32 ◼ ► transport me to a nice place and make it seem as realistic as possible i don't need there to be a
01:33:37 ◼ ► story happening around me just bring me somewhere nice like kind of like you know a virtual virtual
01:33:41 ◼ ► vacation or virtual tourism um or any just even just again like like almost like a you know
01:33:46 ◼ ► meditative spaces could also be useful here there are so many great applications for that and that is
01:33:51 ◼ ► extremely compelling when you're in the vision pro that is by far my favorite immersive type
01:33:56 ◼ ► of experience and the little dial that that fades it in they do that in a smart way so there's kind
01:34:01 ◼ ► of like a semi-circular cut out in front of you like so i've seen a lot of people online who
01:34:06 ◼ ► basically like oh i so i pick my favorite immersive environment right and i dial the little dial so
01:34:10 ◼ ► that i can still see everything on the desk in front of me so like there's a little semicircle
01:34:15 ◼ ► in front of them where their desk is visible and pass through where they see whatever it is they
01:34:18 ◼ ► have in front of them and then the immersive environment appears and they basically dial it
01:34:22 ◼ ► in so they can interact with the stuff that they need to interact with but everything else is you
01:34:26 ◼ ► know the moon or like uh you know whatever that lake is at the side of the mountains i even saw
01:34:30 ◼ ► some person was using it on a rowing machine and they wanted to be able to see like the i don't
01:34:35 ◼ ► know some stats or screen that's on their fancy rowing machine but also feel like they're on like
01:34:39 ◼ ► a mountain lake type thing or whatever again i wouldn't recommend wearing this for exercise that
01:34:43 ◼ ► was the point of this video is like can you use it for exercise but the way they've implemented
01:34:47 ◼ ► immersive environments and the way they allow you to dial it in is not just like how much do you
01:34:52 ◼ ► want it is literally uh dial it so that you can do all the things in the real world with your real
01:34:57 ◼ ► hands on your real physical surfaces that are in front of you while also getting to experience the
01:35:02 ◼ ► immersive environment and then by the way when you dial it all the way to like 100 percent
01:35:06 ◼ ► uh you have arms and you have hands but you do not have a body or feet or legs so just be prepared
01:35:12 ◼ ► for that when you look straight down you will see the dirt below you you will not see anything but
01:35:17 ◼ ► you will see your flickery poorly masked arms and hands it's kind of fun another very useful benefit
01:35:24 ◼ ► of that kind of like partial environment view as you were saying like the oval in front of you is
01:35:29 ◼ ► environment that's very useful if for instance uh there you're in a place physically where whatever
01:35:36 ◼ ► is immediately in front of you might be distracting or prevent windows from showing up correctly so if
01:35:41 ◼ ► you're trying to get work done with some windows in the space and there's say an airline seat
01:35:46 ◼ ► directly in front of your face or some or maybe a very distracting or busy background you will often
01:35:52 ◼ ► want to dial that in partially just to have something that you can like a solid or solid-ish
01:35:58 ◼ ► background that you can you can do work against so that's it's also very useful for that so anyway
01:36:06 ◼ ► remember our question from back then it's like well what are you going to do with an airline
01:36:09 ◼ ► seat when the airline seat is two inches from your nose but you want the movie screen to be
01:36:16 ◼ ► and you would think that the the sort of disconnect of like but that's impossible or whatever
01:36:21 ◼ ► uh it does look weird sometimes but usually because they dim the background so much and
01:36:27 ◼ ► because the vision pro content is so much more compelling in hdr like i did it with the with the
01:36:32 ◼ ► semicircular thing the semicircular thing was three feet past the apple person who was sitting
01:36:36 ◼ ► next to me but it was drawing over them right it's like it's like a z uh a z index problem like in a
01:36:42 ◼ ► video game and it's like well wait a second if it's five feet past them how can it be drawing in
01:36:47 ◼ ► front of them and the answer is your your brain just eventually accepts it because you look at
01:36:51 ◼ ► the shiny bright pixels right if you look at the edge it doesn't make any sense but so you know the
01:36:56 ◼ ► answer to like if you're watching a movie on a seat back in front of you and the screen is going
01:37:01 ◼ ► to be two seats up it's just going to draw over the seats and it will look like you're looking
01:37:05 ◼ ► through the seats they're not even there and here's here's your window yeah i know and if you
01:37:08 ◼ ► look at the edge it'll be like this doesn't make any sense how is it cut off or whatever but like
01:37:11 ◼ ► because you know it's all fake and it's a screen it mostly works i don't know what else they could
01:37:16 ◼ ► do i didn't know what they were going to do i don't know if they were going to try like forbid
01:37:19 ◼ ► it or try to whatever the answer is they just draw over it like and it mostly works out so
01:37:24 ◼ ► let's talk productivity this is not going to be a productivity device for most people text input is
01:37:35 ◼ ► terrible and it will probably always be terrible i don't know if i agree about the productivity in
01:37:41 ◼ ► je in a broad sense but yes could not agree more it is infuriating how bad text entry is you're
01:37:50 ◼ ► talking about without a physical keyboard obviously yes and and you know and i think that is that is
01:37:55 ◼ ► fair because many times i mean look i have a physical keyboard i have a bluetooth keyboard
01:38:00 ◼ ► i bought just for this i don't always have it with me and and so and there's lots of times when like
01:38:06 ◼ ► you will need to enter text on the vision pro directly through some for for some reason whether
01:38:10 ◼ ► you don't have the keyboard or it's not right there or it's not working whatever text input is
01:38:14 ◼ ► very bad now some of this can be tweaked a little bit here and there but i think a lot of it is just
01:38:19 ◼ ► inherent to the physical realities of what you're doing so this is never going to be i think as good
01:38:26 ◼ ► of a text input platform as say a mac or even an ipad with a keyboard because what you don't
01:38:32 ◼ ► realize with text input it text input is not just typing it's also things like moving the cursor
01:38:38 ◼ ► selecting things moving text cut copy paste all that's you know all the different stuff that you
01:38:42 ◼ ► do with the text as you're working with it so combination of typing and all of that other stuff
01:38:48 ◼ ► and in the vision environment it is rough like that even with a keyboard a keyboard makes it
01:38:55 ◼ ► a lot better but it doesn't it still doesn't make it good because all the still all of that
01:38:59 ◼ ► manipulation stuff is still all pretty rough this is going to be a problem for a lot of people and
01:39:06 ◼ ► by the way i mentioned that uh you have arms and you have hands one thing you don't have is a
01:39:10 ◼ ► keyboard because it does not even attempt to mask it out so if you dial that environment in so it's
01:39:14 ◼ ► taking up where your keyboard would be you'll see your hands you won't see your keyboard yeah um
01:39:20 ◼ ► one other one other um kind of kind of inherent problem that i've had so far and i think some of
01:39:27 ◼ ► this will get better over time and some of it won't is that the eye tracking and gesture based system
01:39:35 ◼ ► in my experience and a number of viewers have mentioned this um it is not super reliable like
01:39:41 ◼ ► it works well enough in the sense that like most of the taps that you do and most of the places you
01:39:46 ◼ ► look with your eyes will be correct but there's a very huge difference between most and all and you
01:39:52 ◼ ► know when you are operating precise pc and mac input devices keyboards mice trackpads like
01:39:59 ◼ ► they're all pretty precise and they're all extremely reliable butterfly keyboard accepted
01:40:04 ◼ ► but you know we're past that era now thank god so part of the reason why the butterfly keyboard was
01:40:09 ◼ ► so infuriating was that even if it would make an error like you know 0.1 of the time it turns out
01:40:17 ◼ ► you type keys a lot and so that would add up and it would actually be very annoying or very you
01:40:22 ◼ ► know destructive to your workflow if you had even even that tiny of an error rate the vision pro is
01:40:28 ◼ ► is trying to read all these kind of real world squishy analog inputs that you're doing with your
01:40:35 ◼ ► hands and where you're looking with your eyes and trying to create a very reliable input method from
01:40:40 ◼ ► that and they've done a really good job with what they can do but the the physical reality of that
01:40:47 ◼ ► is that that's never going to be as precise and as reliable as the other input devices that we're
01:40:53 ◼ ► accustomed to in the pc world so i have found personally some of this i think is is habits that
01:41:00 ◼ ► i can improve as i learn to use the device better for instance john you mentioned this earlier that
01:41:05 ◼ ► like like when i look at an eye target in vision os i will look at it and i will begin to do the
01:41:11 ◼ ► tap gesture with my fingers and as i'm doing that i am moving my eyes to the next thing yeah yep and
01:41:17 ◼ ► then i click the wrong thing because by the time my fingers actually reach each other my eyes have
01:41:23 ◼ ► actually moved slightly over you know on the way to the next thing i'm doing you know i haven't
01:41:27 ◼ ► realized it because it's just like subconscious like i i think look click move you know and it
01:41:32 ◼ ► takes a while and you know everyone's reporting the same thing it takes a while for you to realize
01:41:36 ◼ ► as the user like wait no my eyes are the pointer and therefore i have to keep looking at this thing
01:41:42 ◼ ► until the tap is registered then i can move my eyes and that is very different from any other
01:41:49 ◼ ► computer device we've ever used so that that's that both slows me down and combined with the
01:41:55 ◼ ► squishy analog factors it increases my error rate so i'm frequently clicking the wrong thing
01:42:00 ◼ ► it's not just the fact that you have to keep looking at it like remember those heat map things
01:42:04 ◼ ► where they're like let's see where people looking on this web page so we can optimize it or whatever
01:42:08 ◼ ► one thing is that you'll realize that i realized when i was doing like menu selections it's not
01:42:13 ◼ ► just that i have to remember to keep looking at the thing one thing that apparently i do and i
01:42:20 ◼ ► even though i know the one i want is whatever i scan them all and even when i'm about to select
01:42:26 ◼ ► the one like i would see my selection going up down up down up and it's because i'm realized i'm
01:42:30 ◼ ► looking at what all the choices are as what if i was doing this on the mac the menu would come up
01:42:35 ◼ ► and what would happen is my cursor would make a b-line for the one that i want to click while my
01:42:40 ◼ ► eyes scanned all the other options especially if it's an app that i've never used right and
01:42:44 ◼ ► in vision pro that is not helpful because your selection in the menu of seven items is going top
01:42:51 ◼ ► bottom top bottom top bottom and you're like but no i just and it's like you don't realize that
01:42:54 ◼ ► your eyes essentially scan things to like you know let me especially again using an app for the first
01:43:00 ◼ ► time what are all the options while i'm going to now go into that menu and select whatever and i'm
01:43:05 ◼ ► going and i'm selecting but i'm also scanning them all and it's like conflict because you don't you
01:43:09 ◼ ► don't your eyes are for scanning but now your eyes are also for are also the pointer and they can't
01:43:15 ◼ ► be both at once along with a few other a few other like you know just physical and design
01:43:21 ◼ ► considerations that i think is the biggest hindrance to me so far whenever i've tried to do
01:43:25 ◼ ► productivity work with this whether it's just basic email or notes or even safari youtube like
01:43:30 ◼ ► all this other stuff there's so much stuff where i i'm kind of trying to bounce between different
01:43:35 ◼ ► windows or or do something in an app and that eye tracking mechanic gets in my way and creates a lot
01:43:42 ◼ ► of a lot of error so first of all i can i can strongly encourage developers out there as you
01:43:45 ◼ ► design for vision os undo please support undo it is very important because i think this is especially
01:43:54 ◼ ► as people are new to it i think it's it's gonna have pretty high error rates of input but you know
01:44:00 ◼ ► more generally with productivity tasks too so you know so you have pretty rough text input you have
01:44:06 ◼ ► kind of coarse grained and kind of not great reliability on pointer input that hurts it in
01:44:14 ◼ ► some areas what i think also hurts it is you know kind of accounting for that and accounting for the
01:44:19 ◼ ► space you're in the controls and the layouts and vision os for productivity apps everything has to
01:44:25 ◼ ► be very chunky and fairly low information density it feels a lot like i'm using apps on my apple tv
01:44:34 ◼ ► but with you know more more advanced input and larger screen space i wouldn't want to do certain
01:44:39 ◼ ► kinds of work this way what we're accustomed to in the pc and mac world is high resolution highly
01:44:46 ◼ ► precise highly reliable inputs and outputs and that's not what we have here we have a lot of
01:44:51 ◼ ► other advantages here but those aren't among them and so the design of the apps that we use has to
01:44:57 ◼ ► be totally different on vision os and there and there's different designs that feel and work better
01:45:03 ◼ ► or worse than others and what we are accustomed to with most productivity apps in the pc platforms is
01:45:08 ◼ ► again like very very dense things made for very precise you know mouse pointers and stuff and
01:45:13 ◼ ► that just doesn't work in vision os everything in vision os has to be very similar to like a very
01:45:19 ◼ ► blown up ipad design for instance one of the one of the questions i had early on with with like
01:45:25 ◼ ► all of our friends who got pressed down was i asked them all in june like hey how is scrolling
01:45:29 ◼ ► especially vertical scrolling because so much of app design in the modern world based on phones
01:45:34 ◼ ► is based on lots of vertical scrolling i i had suspected that it might be clumsy on vision pro
01:45:40 ◼ ► and now that i've been using vision pro i can tell you for sure it works but yeah it is clumsy you're
01:45:45 ◼ ► not going to want to like be browsing a social feed by vertical scrolling constantly on a vision
01:45:50 ◼ ► pro it's tedious and it's not nearly as nice or direct or reliable as doing it on a phone screen
01:45:56 ◼ ► yeah i mentioned that in my blog post which i wrote the blog post obviously before i'd ever
01:46:00 ◼ ► use visual and also before i'd read any reviews or seen any review videos and stuff and so i
01:46:06 ◼ ► i intentionally tempered what i said to not be too sensational or adamant but in my heart i knew
01:46:14 ◼ ► everything that morco was saying i'm like this is totally how it's going to be but i'm like hey you
01:46:18 ◼ ► haven't tried it don't don't come out and say it's definitely going to be this way you don't know
01:46:22 ◼ ► so if you look at what i wrote like in the last few paragraphs and the things that i say
01:46:26 ◼ ► i say them in a nice way but what i'm trying to say is like this is not going to be like flicking
01:46:33 ◼ ► i think it did they make the comparison flicking your thumb on your phone to scroll and i and i also
01:46:40 ◼ ► gave myself a hedge but i said this is also not going to be like 1984 and i grab my mouse and i
01:46:45 ◼ ► grab a menu right because the directness of that connection even though it's not direct you're on
01:46:51 ◼ ► a mouse the mouse is on a mouse pad and the cursor's on your screen it's sort of mechanically
01:46:56 ◼ ► close enough that within five minutes my eight-year-old mind i was grabbing the file menu
01:47:03 ◼ ► with my hand right and as i try to explain without going on too much in my old man mode grabbing
01:47:10 ◼ ► things with your hand is something we learn to do from birth because it's important to live our
01:47:15 ◼ ► lives and feed ourselves and navigate the world seeing something and grabbing it with your hand
01:47:20 ◼ ► we're all really good at that because we have to be because we have bodies and we live in a world
01:47:26 ◼ ► and to the extent a computer interface can take advantage of that it's awesome and it feels
01:47:31 ◼ ► efficient the phone even better we literally we see the thing we want we touch it with our stupid
01:47:36 ◼ ► meat fingers flick scrolling with your thumb on the phone just such a beautiful combination of
01:47:42 ◼ ► like of real spatial computing we already know how to do all that stuff with our hands they make the
01:47:48 ◼ ► images on the screen pretend like they have inertia and it makes sense to our little monkey brains
01:47:52 ◼ ► right and and it is just so satisfying and pinch scrolling in vision os is not that and same thing
01:48:00 ◼ ► with the resizing that you have to look like that you can't just grab the window we're real good at
01:48:05 ◼ ► reaching out and grabbing the corner of the window and yanking it but that's not how vision os works
01:48:09 ◼ ► it might someday but today it does not and so it it kind of reminds me of like very often when i
01:48:14 ◼ ► use my phone or my ipad if i have to do something complicated with my computer i feel like i'm using
01:48:18 ◼ ► my computer with mittens like i just need to get to my mac even if it's just like to get arrow keys
01:48:23 ◼ ► and to be able to you know just text manipulation and i gotta have three browser windows and i gotta
01:48:28 ◼ ► i have a file that i want to save this and i want to convert it to this and i want to put it into
01:48:31 ◼ ► this document and i want to put it in this folder in my website and like it's just so much easier to
01:48:35 ◼ ► do it on the mac because i feel like my hands are in there in the mac with like these high fidelity
01:48:40 ◼ ► interfaces of the keyboard and the mouse and you'd be like that's not direct manipulation you're
01:48:45 ◼ ► using a thing down there and your screen's up there it is so much more direct than the quote
01:48:48 ◼ ► unquote spatial computing of the vision pro because the vision pro does not ask us to manipulate
01:48:55 ◼ ► things with our hands the way we manipulate a keyboard and mouse now yeah you can use a
01:48:58 ◼ ► keyboard and mouse with vision pro and as i said in my article it could be that the full solution
01:49:03 ◼ ► is really hey this screen tech combined with plain old boring a keyboard and mouse but trying to use
01:49:09 ◼ ► the vision pro without a keyboard without a mouse without a pointer just using your fingers gesturing
01:49:14 ◼ ► in space where they where they never ask you to grab anything and by the way if you were to grab
01:49:18 ◼ ► it it wouldn't be there because it's not real unlike the mouse and keyboard which you can feel
01:49:22 ◼ ► it is so much less efficient less direct and less quote unquote spatial than moving a windows moving
01:49:30 ◼ ► windows around on your mac with a trackpad or mouse it doesn't mean that it's bad and the screen
01:49:35 ◼ ► obviously as i said in the post and the vision pro can do things that the mac absolutely cannot
01:49:42 ◼ ► but being really efficient for doing like text editing or moving files around or even just
01:49:48 ◼ ► resizing or moving windows which you know i love to do the vision pro has a long way to go there
01:49:54 ◼ ► it doesn't mean that it's bad or doomed or whatever but i do kind of feel like like your
01:49:59 ◼ ► impression marco of obviously use it way longer than i have and i'm glad to hear like that's what
01:50:03 ◼ ► i imagined it would be like if i had one of these in my house and had to use it for an hour i felt
01:50:06 ◼ ► like i would feel like what you just described and i mean i use it for 30 minutes again i don't want
01:50:11 ◼ ► to be come down too strongly on it i was mostly wowed by the visuals but like like if if trying
01:50:17 ◼ ► to trying to do stuff on my phone or my ipad it's like wearing mittens trying to do stuff in vision
01:50:22 ◼ ► pro is kind of like wearing a straight jacket or with one arm tied behind your back or maybe
01:50:26 ◼ ► sending messages to someone and asking them to do it wow like it's amazing that it works at all
01:50:32 ◼ ► but i cannot imagine trying to do any of my computer stuff in that environment that's before
01:50:37 ◼ ► even getting the stuff that you were talking about with with information density because again i
01:50:41 ◼ ► didn't have enough experience to know if that's like just apple's apps or if it's you know like
01:50:45 ◼ ► it's whatever but like even setting that aside just i don't feel like my hands are in there
01:50:50 ◼ ► doing stuff in the same way that i do on the and even on like the ipad and the phone like that's
01:50:56 ◼ ► as direct as you can get i see stuff like push my finger on it i move my finger like that becomes so
01:51:01 ◼ ► second nature and feel so efficient right up until we have to do anything involving text editing
01:51:04 ◼ ► but like the way you mentioned text setting i feel it like that on the software keyboards on the
01:51:10 ◼ ► phone and the ipad and i can actually touch those unlike the one in vision os which you can't
01:51:16 ◼ ► actually touch because it's not there and and on the you know on the the spatial design front too
01:51:21 ◼ ► you know everything optically as we've discussed both earlier this episode and also in previous
01:51:26 ◼ ► episodes it's all kind of optimized for that like 1.3 meters away from you focal distance
01:51:30 ◼ ► and the whole system is designed around that of course because if if you have a lot of stuff
01:51:34 ◼ ► that's much closer than that you do risk getting eye strain from vac again as we've discussed
01:51:40 ◼ ► so if you think about like you're using all of these apps at you know greater than arms distance
01:51:46 ◼ ► away and so the design of them is very big and chunky also and you are limited you know when
01:51:53 ◼ ► you're having things be that far away naturally and again if you put everything closer to you
01:51:59 ◼ ► you're also not only risking eye strain but like the displays aren't actually high high resolution
01:52:03 ◼ ► enough to make that look very good a lot of times anyway so you're going to be operating mostly like
01:52:07 ◼ ► at that distance things are going to be placed at that radius around you by default and you're
01:52:11 ◼ ► going to be operating mostly that distance well with the information density of the apps even if
01:52:17 ◼ ► you set them to their smallest setting of like like it's kind of like a display size setting for
01:52:21 ◼ ► how big content should be even at the smallest setting apps and windows are huge so while you
01:52:28 ◼ ► have the whole room around you and the whole space in front of you and everything to place them
01:52:34 ◼ ► you can't actually fit that much on screen or rather in your viewport you can't actually fit
01:52:38 ◼ ► that much without having to like turn your whole body around different parts of the room like if
01:52:43 ◼ ► you're just going to face generally forward and try to fill you know whatever like 90-ish degrees
01:52:47 ◼ ► that are ideal for you to be looking at you're not going to be able to fit that much on screen
01:52:52 ◼ ► and if if you make things smaller the distance that you that they are placed away from you
01:53:00 ◼ ► it will start to look too small and and you'll start to like you know have to squint to see things
01:53:04 ◼ ► so this is an environment that is not made for a lot of information dense and control dense apps
01:53:12 ◼ ► that's what productivity typically requires so i'm not saying that nobody will be able to get their
01:53:19 ◼ ► work done on this that's not true but i think as a general purpose work device this is not what most
01:53:25 ◼ ► people are going to want there's going to be certain fields certain types of productivity
01:53:30 ◼ ► where it's going to be amazing but that's not it's not going to be what most people consider
01:53:35 ◼ ► productivity work on computers that that's that's not great on this again and this is not to say
01:53:40 ◼ ► that there's no use for this there's tons of great uses as we've gone over and but i think apple
01:53:46 ◼ ► having focused on entertainment for this first generation of this product is very wise because
01:53:52 ◼ ► on the entertainment front it's excellent and on the productivity front it's really not if you want
01:53:57 ◼ ► a distraction-free writing environment where you just have one text editing window in front of you
01:54:01 ◼ ► like there's all those apps that did that on the mac like oh we'll we'll fade out all your other
01:54:04 ◼ ► windows or we'll hide them all or whatever like this it's perfect because what you can have is one
01:54:09 ◼ ► pretty big window directly in front of you and if you're just writing text and you want the
01:54:14 ◼ ► distraction of your environment you want to be on the moon and you just have what your text editing
01:54:17 ◼ ► window and you have a physical keyboard you're off to the races that is your productivity
01:54:21 ◼ ► environment but when marcus's productivity is like what if you're like doing something on the atp cms
01:54:26 ◼ ► and you're editing html and bb edit and you've got a web browser window open to preview and you're
01:54:30 ◼ ► making images in photoshop and then you're saving them and then you're putting them in the folder
01:54:33 ◼ ► and then copying them into the git directory and making directories for the file and then you're
01:54:37 ◼ ► going back and reloading and then you've got docker running right like that's too much not even it is
01:54:44 ◼ ► doesn't even have to be that complicated even just like if you're gonna have like four apps open where
01:54:49 ◼ ► you're like moving data between them like even if it's just as simple as like you know notes email
01:54:54 ◼ ► photos and a web browser like that this is you know it doesn't have to be like a nerdy developer
01:54:58 ◼ ► workflow to run into problems here even regular like office work and email and stuff like that
01:55:04 ◼ ► you will you will hit these these issues and it's again it's not that you can't do it you'll feel
01:55:09 ◼ ► less efficient yeah and i think you will very quickly go back to doing it on a pc or even an
01:55:13 ◼ ► ipad like i think you'll find that a lot better you'll feel less efficient you'll be turning your
01:55:17 ◼ ► head and or rotating your seat much more than you thought you might and it will like it's it's again
01:55:22 ◼ ► it's why i'll do a certain amount of things on my ipad and my phone but at a certain point i get
01:55:26 ◼ ► frustrated and i just get up and leave the room and get off my butt leave the room and then walk
01:55:31 ◼ ► to my mac and then it's like it's just it's like it's like flying again and you may be saying oh
01:55:36 ◼ ► it's because you're old and you're used to the computer or whatever it's that's not it like this
01:55:39 ◼ ► is what i tried to get in the spatial computing force like there is uh the efficiency of humans
01:55:45 ◼ ► doing things increases uh to the degree that we can leverage abilities that we have essentially
01:55:50 ◼ ► innately like the ability to find things with their hands and feel them and move them around
01:55:55 ◼ ► and the farther we get from that the more sort of like remote we are from that the more we feel like
01:56:00 ◼ ► we're steering a thing that's steering a thing that's moving a thing uh the less efficient it
01:56:04 ◼ ► feels because then some part of our brain is is being is working on that part of it whereas when
01:56:09 ◼ ► you know when you're using your phone which is the newer device to you know to so that it's not just
01:56:14 ◼ ► because i'm old and used to max the phone is the newer device and yet flick scrolling how many
01:56:19 ◼ ► people have you had to teach to flick scroll people pick that up faster than they pick up like
01:56:24 ◼ ► breastfeeding like it's just like it's just it's you know that was referencing a thing of like
01:56:29 ◼ ► intuitive interfaces from like toggzzini interfaces whatever like a toggzzini always get his name wrong
01:56:34 ◼ ► um the interface had to be intuitive and the idea is like they don't have to be taught you just
01:56:43 ◼ ► the only thing that's intuitive is the nipple like what thing do you not need to be taught
01:56:47 ◼ ► you don't need to teach a baby to breastfeed which is not really true if you've ever had a baby but
01:56:51 ◼ ► anyway uh that was the idea nothing can ever be intuitive as in you're already born knowing it
01:56:55 ◼ ► but uh our genes are nicely designed to uh let us learn to manipulate the world around us with
01:57:05 ◼ ► our hands eventually when we stop being useless little babies um and that's because the ones that
01:57:10 ◼ ► did that less well didn't pass on their genes right so we're all here in the 3d world with
01:57:14 ◼ ► our meat bodies and grabbing seeing things with our hands and grabbing them and manipulating them
01:57:20 ◼ ► is something that we do not need to uh spend much mental energy on once we reach a certain age
01:57:28 ◼ ► and almost everything in vision pro is not like that one thing that is like that is looking around
01:57:33 ◼ ► in wonder at the amazing things we're seeing we're great at that uh but doing the gesture to scroll
01:57:39 ◼ ► with the little pinchy thing so far from flicks scrolling through twitter with your thumb so far
01:57:44 ◼ ► from that yeah um so you know kind of building off the productivity um limitations and trade-offs
01:57:51 ◼ ► here with you know you know sizing and density and everything it leads me into max screen sharing
01:57:58 ◼ ► this is the feature where you can project a max screen into vision pro give it a large screen make
01:58:04 ◼ ► it you know 10 feet wide or whatever well you know whatever you want to do with it um this is
01:58:08 ◼ ► i know this is an area that a lot of people thought and hoped that that would revolutionize their life
01:58:13 ◼ ► and i think it's kind of getting mixed reviews and i think there's good reason for that um
01:58:18 ◼ ► in my experience i i did this for a few hours the other day trying to just get get some work done on
01:58:24 ◼ ► my mac uh in this mode where i'm in the vision pro looking at a large screen that is that is being
01:58:30 ◼ ► projected from my laptop because i was some i was away from my main office so like this is perfect
01:58:33 ◼ ► i can like i'm staying at this house for a little while i'm like this is great i can just have my
01:58:38 ◼ ► laptop and not bring my xdr because it would be you know large and cumbersome to do that and i
01:58:44 ◼ ► can just have my laptop and i'll use a screen the vision pro perfect i'm not going to be doing this
01:58:49 ◼ ► very frequently uh it's just too blurry everything is blurry everything and part of this i think a
01:58:58 ◼ ► big part of this is as we were saying uh last episode that you know they're they're rendering
01:59:03 ◼ ► the max screen down to a lower resolution to send it over the wire or over the wireless
01:59:09 ◼ ► to be displayed so you have you have some loss right there where you know whatever the the you
01:59:16 ◼ ► know the high res max screen that i have on my macbook pro that's being sent at it's gonna be
01:59:21 ◼ ► it's being rendered at a higher resolution virtually then shrunk down to the 4k display
01:59:26 ◼ ► stream to be sent to be displayed inside a virtual window on a device that is simulating this window
01:59:34 ◼ ► being shown but showing it to your eyeballs with around 4k of pixels each so there's a lot of
01:59:40 ◼ ► scaling and reduction of detail going on in this in this process in this pipeline and i have found
01:59:47 ◼ ► that at the default setting of the of basically the simulated 5k amount of space it's really
01:59:53 ◼ ► pretty bad if you if you push it one resolution step down which gives you basically 1080p at 2x
02:00:00 ◼ ► that is better it just makes everything larger and that fixes one big problem in the sense that
02:00:08 ◼ ► you can then push it further from you virtually you can push it back to the ideal distance of
02:00:16 ◼ ► 1.3 meters because when i did it for a couple hours the other day i had the regular default
02:00:22 ◼ ► 5k resolution and i positioned it closer to me the way i would position a screen that size
02:00:27 ◼ ► and i got massive eye strain from doing that for a couple hours i felt awful my eyes were exhausted
02:00:35 ◼ ► i think this was me experiencing vac i put it too close that for the focal distance thing this is
02:00:42 ◼ ► vac now i get it okay so what i have found is that if i'm going through the mac monitor the right way
02:00:50 ◼ ► to do it is to put it at or to leave it at that 1.3 meter default distance and to have it be you
02:00:58 ◼ ► know larger in the vision pro like scale the window up so it's large so that the detail works
02:01:04 ◼ ► at that distance and also have it set at the simulated 1920 resolution which is the one step
02:01:10 ◼ ► down from default and what this results in is a still kind of blurry fine performing window that
02:01:18 ◼ ► is not that much higher resolution than the screen in my 16x macbook pro it's only like a couple
02:01:23 ◼ ► hundred pixels more what i ended up creating was a very complicated limited still blurry setup
02:01:32 ◼ ► that is only marginally better than my laptop's built-in display in in screen space and so to me
02:01:37 ◼ ► that is just not worth it it it was there's too many downsides there's too many gotchas there's
02:01:42 ◼ ► too many what-ifs and also the reality is having having carried both the vision pro and my 16x
02:01:50 ◼ ► laptop in the same backpack it's heavy like this this it would have to be really great to have that
02:01:57 ◼ ► be worth it and for me this is just it's just not worth it i hope in the future if the vision pro
02:02:04 ◼ ► gets much higher resolution screens down the road which i assume it will eventually i mean it might
02:02:09 ◼ ► be a while but if the vision pro can like you know get you know the the 2x version of what it has now
02:02:16 ◼ ► you know basically 8k screens in each eye or whatever whatever that would be i think there
02:02:20 ◼ ► might be enough resolution at that point to make the mac pass through like really good for my
02:02:26 ◼ ► standards but the way it is now it is just a very very cumbersome way to get a very blurry screen of
02:02:31 ◼ ► your macbook pro and it's just not worth it to me and it's not just the fact that it might be blurry
02:02:36 ◼ ► it's like the the dream of having a big monitor whether in real life or a virtual one is that you
02:02:45 ◼ ► resolution as the studio display but bigger it has more pixels and that means we can see more stuff
02:02:50 ◼ ► right and in the mac retina world is whatever the standard ppi is 200 and change or whatever
02:02:55 ◼ ► uh adding more stuff it adds more information but what you're forced to do is take this virtual 4k
02:03:01 ◼ ► window and make it no more information dense possibly less information dense than your actual
02:03:07 ◼ ► laptop screen and at that point the size of the window no longer really matters except for
02:03:12 ◼ ► ergonomics of maybe not having your head looking down at a laptop having a look across you're not
02:03:16 ◼ ► getting the benefit that we want of like i can have a really big screen because when we say that
02:03:20 ◼ ► with a mac like i have a really big screen it's like now i can have more windows and you say that
02:03:24 ◼ ► because you've got more pixels but you're not getting more pixels no matter how big you make
02:03:27 ◼ ► that window it's 2x a 1080 screen and you're not you're not getting any more information so the
02:03:33 ◼ ► dream of having a big monitor is not being realized and at that point like you said you
02:03:38 ◼ ► could just look at your laptop screen which is going to be sharper it's maybe again maybe
02:03:42 ◼ ► ergonomically less good because you know sort of looking down at your laptop that's attached to the
02:03:47 ◼ ► keyboard is a one of the many reasons the laptops are bad uh but and in vision pro like you know you
02:03:52 ◼ ► separate that the keyboard is down here by your hand and the laptop is ergonomically directly in
02:03:56 ◼ ► front of you and that may be better but it's not like what people want out of the experience is
02:04:01 ◼ ► like i can't have a big mac monitor with me all the time but i can have this and this is a big
02:04:05 ◼ ► mac monitor and no it's not a big mac monitor it's a mac monitor it's not that big and you know
02:04:10 ◼ ► currently uh those of us outside apple can only have one of them supposedly internally that they
02:04:15 ◼ ► have a thing that can show two mac screens which would i think help a little bit because then having
02:04:19 ◼ ► two 1080 screens that's definitely something you don't have with a laptop i can't with you but
02:04:23 ◼ ► honestly i don't know how much that would help in my because like to avoid the my what i think is my
02:04:28 ◼ ► vac problem i would i have to make the screen so big because it's it's like simulated further away
02:04:34 ◼ ► it's far away that like i don't even know if i would necessarily have a lot of comfortable room
02:04:38 ◼ ► to have two of them in my field of view at once like because it it the way it feels comfortable
02:04:43 ◼ ► to avoid vac it almost feels like you are using your computer on a large tv like if you ever like
02:04:48 ◼ ► you know wired with hdmi to a big tv it feels a lot like that uh and so i i don't i don't know
02:04:55 ◼ ► that would solve my problem i mean i i don't know how people use dual monitors all the time anyway
02:04:58 ◼ ► is i don't like the head turning which is why i like the one big monitor but yeah i would imagine
02:05:02 ◼ ► you have to turn your head and at least because again that is another advantage that the vision
02:05:05 ◼ ► pro has that a laptop doesn't or is that you don't have to take a physical space with it so if you do
02:05:09 ◼ ► have two monitors you can have one over there and one over here and you just turn or swivel your seat
02:05:14 ◼ ► and now you've got double the information both equally dense which is better than just one again
02:05:19 ◼ ► you can't even do that now although like the rumor is inside apple you can do it but someday we might
02:05:23 ◼ ► be able to but yeah i think the solution to this is probably eventually going to be resolution i
02:05:28 ◼ ► suppose so but we're not quite there yet all right so that's actually a really good time for me to
02:05:32 ◼ ► jump in because i have thoughts about mac virtual display and just generally thoughts about the
02:05:37 ◼ ► device um i am not going to say that anything you've said is wrong or incorrect particularly
02:05:51 ◼ ► mac virtual display i have admittedly used it very briefly i have not had a two-hour session with it
02:05:57 ◼ ► so consider your source here it has been very brief sessions here and there but it has been
02:06:04 ◼ ► incredible i think some of the difference and some of the reason i'm so excited about this is because
02:06:09 ◼ ► i willingly chose a 14-inch laptop i don't have a 16-inch laptop so i have considerably i think it's
02:06:14 ◼ ► considerably less screen real estate than you do additionally i just happen to be traveling which
02:06:19 ◼ ► is not too dissimilar from what you're working with with your you know temporary housing and all
02:06:24 ◼ ► that but i was in a hotel room you know how often it is i have a nice 4k display in a hotel room
02:06:29 ◼ ► friggin never literally never so i thought it was tremendous i i loved that i could make the screen
02:06:39 ◼ ► hilariously large yes that does mean i need to move my neck and move me or you know twist my
02:06:44 ◼ ► head and move my and move my head around in order to see everything don't care it was all gigantic
02:06:50 ◼ ► so no matter how bad my eyes are and that's not i really don't think that i had problem with
02:06:56 ◼ ► crispness in terms of the device i think it's just because i need things to be a little bit bigger
02:07:01 ◼ ► because i'm old and because i have terrible eyes um and so anyways i could have a gigantic a
02:07:07 ◼ ► physically gigantic 4k resolution screen right in front of me and then i can put the vision os slack
02:07:14 ◼ ► on one side of it this is what my blog post was about you know right before it came out i can put
02:07:18 ◼ ► messages on the other side i can put safari above or you know or to the to the further to the side
02:07:23 ◼ ► i can put a freaking video i can watch yo wakanda forever i keep picking on that because that's when
02:07:27 ◼ ► i watch it i can watch wakanda forever off in the corner whatever man i've got infinite canvas baby
02:07:32 ◼ ► i can put whatever wherever and it is great the other thing is holy flipping crap how does
02:07:42 ◼ ► universal control work as well as it does it is not perfect but it is astonishing how good a job
02:07:49 ◼ ► it does because what you're doing a universal control means you can use your max keyboard and
02:07:55 ◼ ► your max mouse to control things even within vision os just like you can with an ipad right
02:08:02 ◼ ► doing that with the keyboard is not that remarkable like whatever that that stands to reason if you're
02:08:08 ◼ ► looking at a text field and you start typing okay put the word put the letters in there fine however
02:08:12 ◼ ► the pointer is so good and the thing that's good about it like of course it's just a mouse pointer
02:08:19 ◼ ► like it looks like an ipad pointer within one window you look at another window there's the
02:08:23 ◼ ► pointer sometimes usually you can go between windows i don't know it's in 3d space i don't
02:08:30 ◼ ► know how i guess i am looking i guess and maybe that's what it's doing and i'm attributing to
02:08:34 ◼ ► magic what's really just my own gaze but it feels like freaking magic it is so good and that's
02:08:40 ◼ ► extremely important because what you were saying a little while ago about needing considerably less
02:08:45 ◼ ► information density i think in terms of visual not acuity but in order to see things for me
02:08:53 ◼ ► i don't think i necessarily need less information density in order to see and read and whatnot
02:08:57 ◼ ► where the information density becomes a problem is when you have a lot of controls that are not
02:09:03 ◼ ► spaced out very well the perfect example of this for me is basically any any ipad app that's running
02:09:10 ◼ ► on the vision os in particular things like slack so if you think of slack and i don't as much as
02:09:16 ◼ ► i love to slag on slack i don't think this is really a slack being garbage issue i think it's
02:09:22 ◼ ► just that it's a hard problem and slack has not been designed specifically for vision os
02:09:26 ◼ ► but if you're trying to choose between like the the icon of the slack you're on all the way in
02:09:30 ◼ ► the upper left or the home dms activity i'm looking at the mac version but i think it's the same on
02:09:35 ◼ ► ios or uh vision os in order to get my eyes to correctly focus the one i want it's like john was
02:09:44 ◼ ► saying way earlier i need to like look harder or look past where i think i need to look and i think
02:09:48 ◼ ► it's because all of these different buttons are just too close together there's just not enough
02:09:52 ◼ ► space between them and even though the eye tracking is astonishingly good at least i mean
02:10:01 ◼ ► needs to be more or less density more space between these different controls but if you
02:10:06 ◼ ► have a mouse you can mash that bad boy right on the icon you want because it's a little blob
02:10:11 ◼ ► hovering right over the icon you care about and so i freaking love it i was on the train
02:10:16 ◼ ► coming back from new york and i had wakanda forever over to the side i had my screen my
02:10:23 ◼ ► max screen in front of me i was balancing our checkbook because it just so happened that our
02:10:27 ◼ ► you know statement came in well first of all i'm doing that in complete and utter privacy because
02:10:31 ◼ ► my max screen is black second of all i now have considerably more real estate so i can put my
02:10:36 ◼ ► little it's not quick in it what is it called uh banktivity who i think sponsored way way back when
02:10:41 ◼ ► but i've been using the app uh before that i have banktivity on one side of my screen i have the
02:10:45 ◼ ► pdf of our statement on the other side of the screen and i don't need to be showing anyone how
02:10:50 ◼ ► rich or poor we are you know nobody's looking over my shoulder at my credit card statement or
02:10:55 ◼ ► checking statement whatever i can do all this in a big huge window that's kind of in the seat back
02:11:01 ◼ ► in front of me which is a little weird um i could do that all right there i have i have a 4k an lg
02:11:08 ◼ ► ultra fine 4k on the train that is amazing i cannot wait to be that freaking loser that's
02:11:17 ◼ ► using this library or wagmans or whatever i don't know if i have the gumption to do it yet i was
02:11:22 ◼ ► thinking maybe i would like rent a little meeting room and i would be the only or uh you know reserve
02:11:26 ◼ ► a little meeting room at the library and i will be the only one in there and maybe i'll face the wall
02:11:30 ◼ ► so it's not too obvious but it would be so amazing to have this at the library i'm so excited for it
02:11:37 ◼ ► i am so pleased with how mac virtual display and universal control work together it is amazing and
02:11:44 ◼ ► it blows my mind again my eyes are different i haven't used it for two plus hours straight
02:11:51 ◼ ► maybe if i did i would change my tune but from what i know today it's amazing and i love it
02:11:57 ◼ ► one thing to note about you saying how you like set up like oh here's my mac screen in front of
02:12:00 ◼ ► me and then here's the vision os version of slack to my left and here's the wakanda forever movie
02:12:10 ◼ ► the field of view like i said before when i was talking about the specs is only 100 degrees and so
02:12:15 ◼ ► when you were saying oh look i can have all these things you have this here this left and right right
02:12:19 ◼ ► are um yeah you have to end up turning your head to see those oh yeah on a big on a big mac monitor
02:12:25 ◼ ► those can all be in front of you and why is that because our eyeballs have better than 100 degree
02:12:29 ◼ ► field of view like that's fair like there's lots of people on youtube trying to show the reviews
02:12:33 ◼ ► like oh it looks like you're looking through goggles like you don't notice it that much
02:12:36 ◼ ► but the the field of view is limited right it's limited because the size of the screens like
02:12:40 ◼ ► they're they're they're not four by three ratio if you see the screens when they yanked out of it
02:12:44 ◼ ► and i fixed it they're almost kind of square right they're not 16 by 9 they're not wider you know
02:12:49 ◼ ► they're a little bit wider than they are at all right and they they combine to give you a field
02:12:53 ◼ ► of view that is narrower than you expect so you will end up having to turn your head more and it's
02:12:58 ◼ ► in this case assuming the information density is all right it's not because like uh there's not
02:13:03 ◼ ► enough like it's because your vision is narrowed it's like you know if pretend there's nothing in
02:13:07 ◼ ► the headset you rip everything out of the headset but you still put it on your head it's not exactly
02:13:12 ◼ ► like that but it's pretty close like your field of view is narrowed and that makes you have to
02:13:17 ◼ ► turn your head and that makes you have to use the ability to put things in space around you
02:13:25 ◼ ► what you could get away with having all on one screen in front of you even a 4k screen all in
02:13:29 ◼ ► one mac 4k screen in just native vision os apps you might have to arrange a raid out uh alongside
02:13:36 ◼ ► you and have to end up turning your head because of the field of view although that brings up one
02:13:41 ◼ ► one of you mentioned probably because you don't work like me but um you can layer windows in
02:13:46 ◼ ► vision os you can put one in front of another oh you don't want to you don't want to though
02:13:50 ◼ ► but you probably don't want to because as i noted it does not feel like your hands are in there
02:13:55 ◼ ► like they are on the mac or at least it feels like that for me like on the mac to bring a window to
02:13:59 ◼ ► the front you there are caveats and asterisks on this but you can click on places in the window and
02:14:05 ◼ ► the window will come to the front in vision os as far as i know i didn't get to test this uh you
02:14:11 ◼ ► can't just look at a part of the window and tap your fingers and it comes to the front is that
02:14:15 ◼ ► right um i don't know if that's right but i i so i have ended up with layered windows here and there
02:14:21 ◼ ► and it is cumbersome at best it is not something i recommend like think think of vision os as
02:14:28 ◼ ► you're inside of a sphere and you can put you can stick things on wherever you want along the sphere
02:14:34 ◼ ► but you don't want to ever have things overlap each other it's it's terrible it's kind of weird
02:14:38 ◼ ► though because like i wrote about this in my thing like you know there's there's uh uh the mac has
02:14:43 ◼ ► overlapping windows right but and they have they have always since the beginning had some kind of
02:14:48 ◼ ► like little drawn shadow to like make it look like one is in front of the other but if you were to
02:14:52 ◼ ► like take the world of the mac and like rotate it sideways and look what i think the both the visual
02:14:58 ◼ ► and mental model we all have is that those windows are pretty close together like the total depth of
02:15:02 ◼ ► like having three windows is not one foot between each of the windows they're like they're within
02:15:06 ◼ ► millimeters of each other they're stacked on top of each other more like pieces of paper would be
02:15:10 ◼ ► on a desk imagine that desktop metaphor right so yes their magic pieces of paper where if you tap
02:15:15 ◼ ► one of the one that's behind suddenly that piece of paper jumps in front of the other one but they
02:15:19 ◼ ► could be literally touching despite the huge deep drop shadows that mac os draws them right where in
02:15:24 ◼ ► vision os you don't have to imagine it's literally a 3d space and you could probably take a ruler in
02:15:29 ◼ ► the virtual world and measure the distance between them but it's so weird that like i mean some of us
02:15:34 ◼ ► certainly me are comfortable having tons of overlapping essentially pieces of paper on our
02:15:39 ◼ ► mac screens but when you have four of them and vision os and they're one of them is in front
02:15:44 ◼ ► of the other ones is like oh no i can't figure out how to deal with it and i think part of it
02:15:47 ◼ ► is because you don't feel like you can reach in there and manipulate them like you could papers
02:15:50 ◼ ► on a desk and like we all do windows on a screen but i think the other part is just the window
02:15:54 ◼ ► management controls are meant to keep you at a distance right you have to look you have to
02:16:00 ◼ ► activate them that's the only way for the move things there's no real title bars to speak of
02:16:05 ◼ ► or like you know window control widgets are differently arranged like it's not it's not set
02:16:10 ◼ ► up to like the the whole mac all of the mac interfaces like look the window chrome we've got
02:16:15 ◼ ► window control widgets we've got a title bar we used to have scroll bars back in the day
02:16:18 ◼ ► that is the window frame there used to be an actual little window frame before they got rid
02:16:22 ◼ ► of that in mac os 10 and then all your content is inside it and those frames we have ways to
02:16:26 ◼ ► manipulate them you can grab them you can move them around you can use utilities and like vision
02:16:31 ◼ ► os is like you're not going to be doing a lot of that you can you can grab the bar on the bottom
02:16:36 ◼ ► and you can move them you can grab the little thing in the corner and move them around but it
02:16:40 ◼ ► just seems like it's not it's not made to make it really easy for you to shuffle those papers around
02:16:46 ◼ ► and i think also a huge limitation there is just the precision of the eye tracking you know the
02:16:51 ◼ ► the design of the system apps is pretty good to kind of help conceal how coarse-grained i think
02:16:58 ◼ ► it actually is went to you know you don't have super fine pointer accuracy with the eye tracking
02:17:04 ◼ ► a lot of the mechanics of operating overlapping and stacked windows requires you to like oh let
02:17:11 ◼ ► me get this pointer between these two and get you know grab this edge of this one yeah just snag the
02:17:15 ◼ ► corner of a window yeah and that's i think in vision os things have to be larger and more
02:17:21 ◼ ► you know more chunky than that and so that's one of the reasons that doesn't really work i think
02:17:25 ◼ ► it's like the ios keyboard where it's it it's trying to like average like well where do we
02:17:30 ◼ ► think like i know where you did tap right but where do we think and and if it has to make that
02:17:34 ◼ ► choice and you're trying to snag the corner of some window that's poking out from behind another
02:17:38 ◼ ► one the right bet is you were actually trying to look at the upper right corner of the front most
02:17:42 ◼ ► window not oh what he was actually trying to do was was snag that little piece of the window that's
02:17:48 ◼ ► poking out i snag pieces of windows that are poking out all the time that's how i use my
02:17:51 ◼ ► mac all the time but like that's if you were to guess like if you just had an average probability
02:17:56 ◼ ► cloud based on where you're looking which i imagine if there was like a debug mode you could
02:17:59 ◼ ► see like the actual like giant point cloud of where your eyeballs are racing all over the place
02:18:05 ◼ ► and it has to average them together and kind of guess like the ios keyboard yeah but what did they
02:18:09 ◼ ► mean to look at it's always going to guess the top right corner of the front most window it is never
02:18:14 ◼ ► going to guess the two pixels of the window that's behind it no the mac virtual display stuff was
02:18:19 ◼ ► great i really really like the idea of spatial computing maybe it's a gimmick and maybe i'll
02:18:26 ◼ ► get over it quickly but again on the train and i think in the post show we're going to briefly
02:18:31 ◼ ► talk about my train experience because there's a couple funny things that happen but um but in on
02:18:36 ◼ ► the train at one point i was watching the movie and to my right hand side i put you know apple
02:18:42 ◼ ► maps watching myself you know come down the east coast so i could see where i was off to the left
02:18:48 ◼ ► i had messages just so i could see you know if anyone was trying to send me a text or whatever
02:18:51 ◼ ► the case may be and it was amazing yes i do have to turn my head a bit that doesn't seem to bother
02:18:56 ◼ ► me as much as i guess it bothers you john but it was amazing and i was doing this privately i was
02:19:02 ◼ ► doing this in in a tube that was not in the air but that was hurtling down the eastern seaboard
02:19:07 ◼ ► at like you know anywhere between 20 and 120 miles an hour like this the technology is amazing and i
02:19:12 ◼ ► can't believe that i can do this and broadly i i think we've mostly covered all of the the kind of
02:19:21 ◼ ► different aspects of the vision pro um the spatial videos are very cool i will be taking them more
02:19:28 ◼ ► frequently i don't think it's going to be like john had said quite a bit earlier on i'm not going
02:19:31 ◼ ► to do every video that way but having some moments like that are really cool i am a sucker for the
02:19:36 ◼ ► panoramas i do not argue that they need a lot more fidelity but nevertheless i am a sucker for them i
02:19:41 ◼ ► think they're really neat um the 3d movies in the sense of like disney plus 3d movies i think i said
02:19:47 ◼ ► earlier you know you get a 3d viewport that's neat i would probably choose a 3d movie for the vision
02:19:53 ◼ ► pro if i had the choice but if i didn't you know i'm not going to miss it um i agree with what
02:19:59 ◼ ► marco was saying about the environments they are extremely cool i wish i purposely didn't use them
02:20:06 ◼ ► on the train because i wanted to see if people were you know staring at me and we'll talk about
02:20:10 ◼ ► whether or not they were um later on but i i briefly turned it on toward the end of the
02:20:15 ◼ ► journey when i knew i was about to take the whole vision pro off and suddenly you are somewhere else
02:20:20 ◼ ► and it is truly incredible and like john had said earlier take all my money national geographic
02:20:26 ◼ ► apple i don't care who you are take all my money give me all the environments take all my money
02:20:29 ◼ ► because i don't need to go on a graycation if i can just go to mount hood or you know shendon doe
02:20:34 ◼ ► national park or whatever the case may be take all my money please and thank you well not that
02:20:38 ◼ ► you haven't already but take more of all of my very good things yeah they're very efficient
02:20:43 ◼ ► consumable we would all pay five dollars for one of these even just like i don't even know if it's
02:20:47 ◼ ► local five bucks take it like it's like paying five dollars to go to a place and you're like
02:20:51 ◼ ► well what if you go there and it's boring it was only five dollars like it is that is a money-making
02:20:55 ◼ ► machine if you can produce compelling ones of these and let alone when eventually someone makes
02:20:59 ◼ ► a game of that fidelity that you're in in the headset that's more difficult because the beautiful
02:21:03 ◼ ► thing about the environments is you're sitting still which is ideal once things start moving
02:21:08 ◼ ► around and you know there's anyone who's played uh vr games knows the difficulty of the virtual
02:21:14 ◼ ► world coming in conflict with your physical world and you walking into walls or hitting your coffee
02:21:19 ◼ ► table and stuff like that but sitting still in the middle of one of these places is like the platonic
02:21:23 ◼ ► ideal of like look you're in the sweet spot sell me these things for five dollars make a million
02:21:28 ◼ ► bucks yep uh so all in all i don't think it's for me to make a judgment statement about whether or
02:21:35 ◼ ► not this thing was worth thirty five hundred dollars sitting here now and ask me again in a
02:21:41 ◼ ► month and they ask me again again in a year but sitting here now is this a necessary purchase for
02:21:47 ◼ ► me leaving aside that i i needed i feel like i needed one for this very moment of talking about
02:21:52 ◼ ► it is it a necessary purchase no what i did i do i really want to spend 35 plus hundred dollars on
02:21:59 ◼ ► it no not really but it is so cool and you know how lucky are we to be alive right now that this
02:22:08 ◼ ► is what's being released and we and yeah everyone keeps saying and i think half jokingly half
02:22:12 ◼ ► seriously this is the worst of the vision pro will ever be and that's true but it is freaking cool
02:22:18 ◼ ► and it is freaking amazing and i am so thankful and lucky that we get to experience this not you
02:22:26 ◼ ► know we broadly we the three of us i'm so thankful for it and so lucky that this is what's going on
02:22:32 ◼ ► and i don't think this is going to become the accidental vision pro podcast but we're probably
02:22:37 ◼ ► gonna have to season of it for the next few weeks because oh my word there's so much to say there's
02:22:42 ◼ ► so much to capture there's so much to process there's just so much here and i'm so excited
02:22:46 ◼ ► you put it very well because like there's so much on this platform like we we still haven't talked
02:22:50 ◼ ► really that much about pretty large areas of it like we had i i still haven't really tried any
02:22:56 ◼ ► games there's not that many to start with but you know i still haven't tried any games i still
02:23:00 ◼ ► haven't watched an entire movie we didn't even talk i didn't talk too much about like you know
02:23:04 ◼ ► photo and video consumption and stuff like that like there's still so much to talk about here
02:23:09 ◼ ► personas oh you're right that oh gosh you're right yeah that entire thing like there's so we're
02:23:14 ◼ ► going to be covering this over a few weeks we're obviously running a little long tonight but this
02:23:17 ◼ ► is going to be a process that we cover over a few weeks but and or probably months more likely but
02:23:23 ◼ ► and and i don't want to have to end on a negative note that you know because i said the productivity
02:23:28 ◼ ► angle wasn't very good because whenever something new comes out you know we try to wedge it into
02:23:33 ◼ ► what we already know when and i've i've i've ranted about this before i'm gonna do it again
02:23:37 ◼ ► because it's important when the ipad came out everyone said we're gonna stop buying computers
02:23:47 ◼ ► and that's fine now we have another thing when the watch came out so many nerds were like oh my god
02:23:58 ◼ ► do everything on my watch and then it turned out no we all still have phones but you know we now
02:24:04 ◼ ► some of us also have watches and that's what this is when when this was you know announced but not
02:24:11 ◼ ► yet out and we were all trying to make plans of how we're gonna rationalize purchasing this device
02:24:16 ◼ ► by saying you know we're gonna get all of our work done on this we're never gonna have to buy a big
02:24:20 ◼ ► mac again or whatever i think that's wrong but that doesn't mean it's a failure it just means
02:24:26 ◼ ► it's for other things mostly there are some people who do all their work on ipads and don't buy
02:24:31 ◼ ► laptops anymore but most people who need laptop style work still buy laptops to do it there are
02:24:38 ◼ ► people who are going to be able to do all their productivity work with the vision pro but i think
02:24:43 ◼ ► most people with productivity work are going to choose to do on other other things instead
02:24:45 ◼ ► but the vision pro can do a whole lot of stuff really really well in different areas that i think
02:24:53 ◼ ► is extremely exciting again even if i could just be transported to those environments and just sit
02:24:59 ◼ ► for a few minutes that's amazing it's like the ipad like we're saying like oh the ipad has to
02:25:04 ◼ ► be better at some things and one of the things the ipad is better it's like oh sitting on your
02:25:07 ◼ ► couch and casually scrolling the web you could do that on the laptop but the ipad does that job in
02:25:11 ◼ ► a more pleasing way the vision pro is exactly like that a lot of things that you can do but on a
02:25:16 ◼ ► vision pro and on a mac and on an ipad some of those the vision pro does them the best right and
02:25:21 ◼ ► i would argue looking at 3d video clear winner like the other ones can't do it at all so thumbs
02:25:27 ◼ ► up right and i had a tv that used to be able to do and it sucked so right it's like you're there's
02:25:32 ◼ ► a competition among all the devices in your life of like yeah i can do this here i can do this here
02:25:37 ◼ ► or i can do this here but which one makes me want to do it on it and you know that you know the ipad
02:25:42 ◼ ► is perfect a perfect example of like aren't you doing things that you could also do in your phone
02:25:46 ◼ ► and that you could also do in your mac why are you choosing to do them on the ipad you're like well
02:25:49 ◼ ► the ipad screen is bigger than my phone but it doesn't have a keyboard attached and i can sit
02:25:53 ◼ ► on the couch to do it and it feels more comfortable and it's like all these nuanced reasons but that
02:25:57 ◼ ► you find yourself like what do you choose to use your ipad for versus what you use your phone for
02:26:02 ◼ ► which is what you use computer for people will naturally gravitate to wherever they are most
02:26:07 ◼ ► comfortable doing that thing and that's just with a bunch of rectangles that are screens that are
02:26:12 ◼ ► different sizes they're not even that different from each other this is so different that the
02:26:16 ◼ ► things that it does well and there are things that it does well it basically has no competition
02:26:21 ◼ ► there is no other thing that you own unless you own other vr headsets that can do this stuff at
02:26:26 ◼ ► all so i feel like the place in the ecosystem for devices like this like it's well carved out the
02:26:33 ◼ ► fact that the ipad could find a place when there was a rectangle that was slightly smaller that
02:26:37 ◼ ► did all the same things is a testament to how easy it will be for this thing to find a place
02:26:40 ◼ ► in people's lives once it doesn't cost 3 500 and weigh a ton yeah all right thanks to our sponsors
02:26:46 ◼ ► this week squarespace and trade coffee and thanks to our members who support us directly you can
02:26:52 ◼ ► join us at atp.fm slash join and we will talk to you next week now the show is over they didn't
02:27:03 ◼ ► even mean to begin because it was accidental it was accidental john didn't do any research
02:27:12 ◼ ► marco and casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental it was accidental and you can find the
02:27:22 ◼ ► show notes at atp.fm and if you're into twitter you can follow them at c a s e y l i s s so that's
02:27:53 ◼ ► tech podcast so long i gotta hear a train story what was it like using this on a train with people
02:28:04 ◼ ► who could maybe see you so on the way up uh you know i was in business class as we discussed in
02:28:10 ◼ ► the bootleg and may or may not have discussed in the release version of the show and there were not
02:28:15 ◼ ► a ton of well there weren't a lot of people on the train anyway but there weren't a ton of people
02:28:19 ◼ ► and my understanding before i went on the journey was that it is the the travel mode or whatever i
02:28:26 ◼ ► don't forget exactly what it's officially called it's okay so travel mode is it wasn't clearly
02:28:32 ◼ ► stated as far as i could tell until in the last couple of days or maybe i just discovered it in
02:28:37 ◼ ► the last couple of days but it is not really travel mode it's plane mode it's called travel
02:28:43 ◼ ► mode to john's point but it's actually plane mode because we already have something called airplane
02:28:47 ◼ ► mode exactly yeah yeah exactly right and so i talked to a couple of people on the inside who
02:28:52 ◼ ► indicated to me yeah it might work on the train but probably not and so i tried it initially
02:29:02 ◼ ► on the way from richmond to dc and that's relevant because of dc um you stopped for a while and i'll
02:29:08 ◼ ► explain why in a minute but i tried on the way to richmond from richmond to dc and you go into
02:29:13 ◼ ► control center and or maybe it's the thing no it is control center you go into control center
02:29:18 ◼ ► because there's like something before control center i don't know what they call that but then
02:29:21 ◼ ► there's control center off of it anyways you go into control center and i you know tapped on the
02:29:25 ◼ ► little airplane because i was turning on airplane mode i didn't realize until the return trip they
02:29:31 ◼ ► know you idiot that's the turn off all the radios mode i don't know what i was thinking i don't know
02:29:37 ◼ ► what i was thinking but you were you looking for travel mode or was it in your brain i'm looking
02:29:42 ◼ ► for plane mode i think it's because it was in my brain i was i knew that i didn't want to turn off
02:29:47 ◼ ► the radios i don't want the traditional definition of airplane mode but because i was you know just
02:30:00 ◼ ► airplane mode and i saw the radios turn off but i still just didn't think twice about it because
02:30:04 ◼ ► i'm a freaking idiot and so i put the thing on right you know i i was able to do that and it
02:30:10 ◼ ► was getting kind of upset that i forget exactly what the dialogue says but like tracking tracking
02:30:15 ◼ ► failed or something like that and things are not going well and then i you know put it i turn on
02:30:19 ◼ ► the airplane mode which again as i later realized was not what i wanted but at this point in the
02:30:24 ◼ ► story i don't realize that yet and sure enough like windows are bouncing all over the place i'm
02:30:30 ◼ ► to some degree bouncing all over the place like it is it's not great it's not great at all i think
02:30:34 ◼ ► i had the thing on my face for a minute and a half two minutes and i was like well that's that
02:30:38 ◼ ► well we get to dc and the way the trains work here is or down here in virginia is that in virginia
02:30:46 ◼ ► um the the commuter or not computer the the the the travel train the people train actually travels
02:30:54 ◼ ► on train tracks that are owned by the freight train company so um not only that but the freight
02:31:00 ◼ ► train company has no need for electric trains because to my limited understanding i don't know
02:31:05 ◼ ► if they would work as well if if i'm wrong it doesn't matter one way one way or another there's
02:31:10 ◼ ► a diesel locomotive pulling the Amtrak train south of washington dc and when you're in dc you stop
02:31:16 ◼ ► for like half an hour well they literally switch locomotives from diesel to electric i knew this
02:31:21 ◼ ► going into it i knew it before my trip to marco you know it's all fine it's no big deal well once
02:31:26 ◼ ► we get to dc we're stationary so i'm like hell yeah i'm gonna turn on you know a movie and i'd
02:31:31 ◼ ► start you know wakanda forever and we're there for 20 30 minutes and we go to take off and again i
02:31:38 ◼ ► think that i have travel mode on i don't but i think i do so we go to take off and i don't know
02:31:44 ◼ ► if you saw the casey nistat video well he was on the new york city subway and he was sitting you
02:31:48 ◼ ► know with his back to the outside of the car so the car is moving laterally from his perspective
02:31:54 ◼ ► and when he took off the the the screen just stayed behind you know he just went through
02:32:00 ◼ ► the center of the train of the subway car and stayed behind it's very funny to see i don't
02:32:05 ◼ ► know if he had travel mode on or not i really don't but when we took off immediately i went
02:32:12 ◼ ► through the screen because the screen was in front of me and the screen stayed still as i went
02:32:18 ◼ ► through the screen it was hilarious you could have turned around and looked at the back of it which
02:32:24 ◼ ► would have i guess been entirely white because they don't show the river it would have been
02:32:27 ◼ ► entirely white yeah but immediately i took the vision pro off and i was like well that's that
02:32:31 ◼ ► and i honestly i was really disappointed because i really wanted to be able to use this thing on
02:32:34 ◼ ► the train in no small part because i had six and a half hours to do something and it would have been
02:32:39 ◼ ► great to watch a movie or do whatever and outside of the time that they're switching locomotives
02:32:44 ◼ ► there's ac outlets right at the seat so i mean i have infinite battery power for all intents
02:32:49 ◼ ► and purposes i was really genuinely kind of bummed about it on the way back today i was doing the
02:32:55 ◼ ► same thing i'm like you know let me try it again just to see and i did this i forget when it was i
02:32:59 ◼ ► don't recall if i did it in dc or some sometime before but one way or another i decided i'm gonna
02:33:05 ◼ ► try it again and i look at control center i'm like wait what the hell is this like goggles with like
02:33:11 ◼ ► other like ray or like goggle uh ripples off of it and i tap that and it says oh travel mode enabled
02:33:18 ◼ ► son of a gun i screwed this up i didn't even realize so this whole time on the way up i
02:33:25 ◼ ► probably could have been using vision pro but i didn't and because i thought i couldn't because
02:33:30 ◼ ► it was janky as hell well the reason was janky as hell is because i'm an idiot so it was not
02:33:35 ◼ ► perfect you know things were dancing about a bit like john you had said early on in your review
02:33:44 ◼ ► if things were not locked into place as this train was jostling you know and rumbling down the track
02:33:50 ◼ ► and i don't think it was bad at all in fact it worked better than i thought but at that point i
02:33:55 ◼ ► realized well holy smokes i can use this thing for the remaining you know two to three hours of the
02:33:59 ◼ ► train ride or whatever the heck it was um and so i was very happy about that but i i really was bummed
02:34:05 ◼ ► and remain bummed that uh you know i couldn't use it the rest of time but to get back to your
02:34:10 ◼ ► question um i didn't i think one person walked by and gave me like a double take but other than that
02:34:16 ◼ ► nobody seemed to give a crap and i was very surprised because i expected everyone who walked by
02:34:22 ◼ ► was going to be like what is this idiot doing look at this guy with his fancy goggles wasn't he cool
02:34:29 ◼ ► nobody cared i don't think a lot of people noticed but nobody cared and i was very surprised by that
02:34:35 ◼ ► and actually made me feel a lot better about the idea of using it anywhere am i going to go to
02:34:40 ◼ ► wegmans where it's just like a cafeteria area and sit there and use it maybe eventually but not not
02:34:46 ◼ ► today and not tomorrow but i genuinely think the way i'm going to ease myself into this is
02:34:51 ◼ ► you know renting or i keep saying renting um reserving because it's free you know reserve a
02:34:56 ◼ ► room at the library and probably face the wall because i don't want to call that much attention
02:35:01 ◼ ► to myself but that's a way i can ease into it and i really think this will be a very powerful tool
02:35:05 ◼ ► for me to use anywhere other than home that i want to get work done and but it was a truly hilarious
02:35:12 ◼ ► moment watching the screen go through my body as we took off from dc northbound i i i couldn't help
02:35:20 ◼ ► but laugh when that happened it was very very funny all right john how long do you think it
02:35:24 ◼ ► takes casey to use it at wegmans i say one week yeah i mean so i'm of two minds i think he'll get
02:35:30 ◼ ► over the embarrassment quickly but i'm wondering if he will tire of its utility in the same way
02:35:35 ◼ ► that you kind of have for productivity tasks yeah so that's that's the conflict but yeah i think i