00:00:00 ◼ ► we missed you all we did but uh john and i i assume john you had a relaxing uh time on long island nice pretty pretty okay weather good i saw a lot of bird pictures do we get any kind of uh any kind of vacation dump here for like a technical side of it or uh i i didn't even get to i did every quarter rectives last night i didn't even get to vacation results on rectives yet because we in typical fashion got uh derailed onto other things but i will eventually have vacation results on rectives but for here i don't know there's there's no real
00:00:29 ◼ ► tech updates i don't think yeah cameras held up everything worked the way you wanted it yeah
00:00:35 ◼ ► although i i think i might have i either lost my camera lens cleaning kit in the house or i left it
00:00:42 ◼ ► there because i was going to clean my cameras today and i couldn't find my kit it's just like a little
00:00:46 ◼ ► you know microfiber cloth and lens cleaning solutions like it's not expensive stuff so i just ordered some
00:00:50 ◼ ► new stuff uh from bnh in fact uh but i ordered it in the hopes that as soon as i placed the order i would
00:00:56 ◼ ► find it in the house and that didn't work don't you wear glasses i do okay i've been wearing glasses
00:01:00 ◼ ► for like two seconds and i already have like the huge box of zeiss lens wipes and i use one almost
00:01:06 ◼ ► every day i know i don't use fancy uh camera quality lens wipes on my glasses they're the same wipes
00:01:11 ◼ ► the zeiss lens wipes i by now i don't use any lens wipes on my glasses i use water i use water on my
00:01:18 ◼ ► glasses and soap oh no no no that seems nuts to me but you do you i've been wearing glasses since fourth
00:01:24 ◼ ► grade it's perfectly fine i assure you look you're looking through smears all the time then i'm not
00:01:29 ◼ ► looking through smears my glasses are pristine my family is looking through smears because they don't
00:01:33 ◼ ► even clean their glasses they make me clean their glasses for them because i don't think they even
00:01:36 ◼ ► know how and they get sick of looking through smears my glasses are very clean oh yeah yeah well i'm
00:01:42 ◼ ► glad your vacation results were good uh i we we were we did a good job this year and scheduled our
00:01:46 ◼ ► vacations concurrently definitely on purpose definitely definitely on purpose oh i have one vacation result
00:01:52 ◼ ► relevant to this show marco cursed me uh with all of the eye stinging sunscreen thing because i'm like
00:01:58 ◼ ► oh you know yeah it does sting if you get it in your eyes but i'm usually pretty careful that doesn't
00:02:01 ◼ ► happen i got the worst eye stinging of my entire life on this vacation in like my left eye only on one
00:02:07 ◼ ► particular day i have no idea what happened differently that day but i think for next year i gotta get some
00:02:11 ◼ ► of that fancy stuff oh you find you're gonna come around huh you cursed me it was like you know it's
00:02:17 ◼ ► normally like oh it gets in your eyes if you're not careful and it's a little stinging and remember i talked
00:02:21 ◼ ► about like well some people you made it seem like some people maybe don't feel this thing or you may
00:02:25 ◼ ► feel it worse than other people i don't know if any of that true all i know is this was the worst thing
00:02:30 ◼ ► i've ever felt in my entire life from sun it's the same sunscreen i've been using for like a decade
00:02:35 ◼ ► right and just it was a disaster i'm like well no that's you know this is a sign i will i got news for
00:02:40 ◼ ► you every sunscreen available in the u.s will have exactly the same problem i know i know it's i mean
00:02:47 ◼ ► thanks avobenzone yeah i'm aware like i'm aware of the stinginess i'm very familiar with the
00:02:51 ◼ ► stinginess but normally it's like oh just i got a tiny little bit a tiny little sting towards the
00:02:55 ◼ ► end of the day when you get sloppy with the sweat or whatever but but like this was just this first
00:03:00 ◼ ► of all was not at the end of the day it was early in the day and it was terrible it only takes one
00:03:04 ◼ ► little slip up one misplaced finger or wiped edge or even just a drop of sweat yeah i don't even know
00:03:11 ◼ ► what happened i didn't did i it's like cutting hot peppers and rubbing your eyes like at least you know
00:03:15 ◼ ► what happened there i didn't even know what happened this time but it was bad sometimes you
00:03:18 ◼ ► don't know also it can migrate it's really fun i've heard about the migration yeah it's it's amazing
00:03:24 ◼ ► yes we know but mineral sunscreen that has its own trade-offs we talked about it a few episodes ago
00:03:27 ◼ ► please don't write it yeah no i'd rather have my eye sting than have that damage to my car yeah
00:03:31 ◼ ► honestly maybe me too the eye feels better but the car never never recovers so honestly like since
00:03:37 ◼ ► since i have been using the japanese sunscreen it has like it has radically changed my relationship
00:03:43 ◼ ► to sunscreen like now i am putting it on every day i'm reapplying if i put it on in the morning i go
00:03:48 ◼ ► out in the afternoon i like i i have been i have worn more sunscreen in the last two weeks than i have
00:03:55 ◼ ► probably in the last five years because it's just it becomes like oh there's no downside anymore like
00:04:00 ◼ ► every other it's major downsides for every other kind that's available in the u.s uh and this has just
00:04:05 ◼ ► had oh there's no downsides it's like it's like wearing moisturizer it's fine you just put it on it's
00:04:09 ◼ ► fine life-changing uh we need to acknowledge tim kissing the ring yet again it's so freaking gross i
00:04:17 ◼ ► hate this so much i have a little bit of admiration for making a gold trinket i have a little bit of
00:04:24 ◼ ► admiration no i hate it i hate it i hate it it's it's so it's so transparently kindergarteners he likes
00:04:33 ◼ ► shiny things get him something when does apple ever make anything gold aside from the apple watch
00:04:39 ◼ ► edition can we drop like the the pretense that a lot of apple commentators have that this is all part of
00:04:45 ◼ ► some big strategy that he has to do this like he doesn't have to but he's choosing to do it yeah this
00:04:50 ◼ ► is direct support and kissing tim cook is clearly a trump supporter and he's not you gotta stop with that
00:04:59 ◼ ► oh my god he's not what's the difference between like honestly between this and any other support
00:05:05 ◼ ► what's the difference the difference would be that he would have campaigned for trump to get elected and
00:05:09 ◼ ► he would have been at rallies jumping up in the air making a giant x with his body and he would have
00:05:13 ◼ ► been you know donating hundreds of million dollars to the campaign to get him elected before he was
00:05:17 ◼ ► president he would have expressed support for the president for the for him when he was running for
00:05:22 ◼ ► president both times he would be constantly saying how much he loves trump and loves everything he does
00:05:26 ◼ ► yada yada yada now he's kissing his butt because he thinks that's what he needs to do as part of his job
00:05:32 ◼ ► he's supporting disagree with that but he doesn't actually like trump he doesn't actually support trump
00:05:37 ◼ ► but he is debasing himself to essentially bribe our uh corrupt president and our corrupt system
00:05:43 ◼ ► embarrassing himself and our country and all apple supporters uh to uh kiss up to this idiot that's what's
00:05:49 ◼ ► happening okay so that's a very generous read but i i urge everyone out there who's trying to bend over
00:05:56 ◼ ► backwards into the shape that you would have to be to kiss your own butt trying to defend tim cook here
00:06:01 ◼ ► why are you working so hard to try to excuse this as obviously not him actually being a trump supporter
00:06:10 ◼ ► when he gave him a million dollars for the inauguration he was there with all the other tech billionaires
00:06:16 ◼ ► who everyone says are obviously trump supporters he's there doing all the same things that all
00:06:20 ◼ ► these other people are doing he's directly supporting him with money and gifts and trinkets and support and
00:06:25 ◼ ► and you know public endorsement effectively like you know publicly doing things with him how is that
00:06:29 ◼ ► different from support i i honestly don't see a huge difference and and and by the way the difference
00:06:35 ◼ ► in motivation it's why why are you doing it and in this case actually in this case no we don't know we
00:06:40 ◼ ► don't know the motivation right well but but it's pretty obvious what it is but is it you know
00:06:44 ◼ ► yeah no see what it is so and and before when he gave the million dollars when it was just tim cook
00:06:49 ◼ ► personally giving him the million dollars and we could all say oh well it's it's distancing it from
00:06:54 ◼ ► apple this is now this new this is this is apple this is an apple logo on a gift made of gold sitting on
00:07:03 ◼ ► trump's desk like this is apple supporting supporting trump directly don't you think that's a clever
00:07:10 ◼ ► manipulation no i think it's direct support and it looks bad for i'll tell you a quick little story
00:07:17 ◼ ► here i when i was when i went to go pick up my kid from from camp it was a nerd camp and so i always
00:07:22 ◼ ► wear nerdy shirts when i go to because there's like you know like a little like ceremony opening and
00:07:27 ◼ ► closing for the camp so it's an audience full of nerds so i always wear my nerdiest shirts in the past
00:07:32 ◼ ► i have worn apple shirts and i and i i actually put on an apple shirt like you know some apple shirt i got
00:07:36 ◼ ► from the visitor center over the years like they have pretty fun designs so i put on an apple t-shirt
00:07:41 ◼ ► and i almost and i'm like you know what actually i don't think i can wear this right now because apple
00:07:47 ◼ ► in the past the brand of apple used to be neutral to liberal and and pretty pretty widely accepted
00:07:54 ◼ ► today i don't think it is today tim cook and apple now are directly cooperating with supporting and
00:08:05 ◼ ► sucking the ass of donald trump the the brand damage that is happening here not to mention the fact that
00:08:11 ◼ ► it's a huge middle finger to all of apple's employees who do not agree with this which is many of them
00:08:18 ◼ ► and all the groups of people that trump is actively committing violence against who also happen to work
00:08:25 ◼ ► for apple this is unconscionable and why the last time everyone said oh well obviously tim cook wants
00:08:34 ◼ ► to make sure apple survives the tariffs and everything and that's part of it by the way those are problems
00:08:40 ◼ ► that tim cook created but okay that's part of it um but also tim cook wants the justice department out
00:08:46 ◼ ► of apple's business they they don't want regulation they don't want antitrust like there's a lot behind
00:08:51 ◼ ► this also tim cook's a billionaire when we don't we don't question why other billionaires support trump
00:08:55 ◼ ► it's obvious it's for money and power reasons tim cook might have those same reasons we don't know
00:08:59 ◼ ► we don't know much about tim cook so what i'm saying is not only is tim cook obviously directly
00:09:06 ◼ ► supporting trump the same way lots of other billionaire ceos do and we we didn't try to defend them at all
00:09:13 ◼ ► but also he has roped apple in so much that he is doing profound damage to apple's brand it's time for
00:09:22 ◼ ► tim to go what are we waiting for right i agree with you i agree with you on that point but for different
00:09:28 ◼ ► reasons but but i have to say like in this particular case what he's you know his little dog
00:09:33 ◼ ► and pony show and his little bribe and everything is actually about a thing that apple was doing anyway
00:09:37 ◼ ► and is as a good thing in this case like putting money into u.s manufacturing like it's not that big
00:09:43 ◼ ► of a deal like again we talked about this the first time they did this that in the previous year apple
00:09:48 ◼ ► had put had made basically this same exact press release with an inflation adjusted amount that is the
00:09:52 ◼ ► same amount but either way apple investing in u.s manufacturing is a thing apple should be doing
00:09:57 ◼ ► and it's a good thing that i think we can all agree is a good thing so that is what is actually
00:10:01 ◼ ► being done here the embarrassing part is obviously doing a dog and pony show in public which with
00:10:07 ◼ ► trump which is essentially you know supporting him and lending him apple's name and then giving him
00:10:12 ◼ ► the gold trinket thing which is a very low cost bribe in the grand scheme of things because it is
00:10:18 ◼ ► instead of having to give him a million dollars you can give him a gold trinket that he'll be just as
00:10:21 ◼ ► happy about and it's probably more effective uh when you're you know bribing the idiot dictator
00:10:26 ◼ ► i think you're ignoring the cost to the brand yeah well so we'll see what the cost of the brand is
00:10:31 ◼ ► long term obviously this is not good for the brain like but we'll see we'll see what the brand damage
00:10:36 ◼ ► is i don't think it's going to be beneficial but how much damage really depends on how much people pay
00:10:41 ◼ ► attention to this and you know the specifics of apple doing this versus all the other people who are
00:10:46 ◼ ► kissing up to it to give an example i would think that the uh reputational damage to columbia
00:10:51 ◼ ► university is worse than apple has endured so far with its bribe so uh tim continues to try to walk
00:10:58 ◼ ► that line but he's not walking the line he fell over the line we'll see because apple is reaping benefits
00:11:04 ◼ ► from these bribes i mean they are getting they are you know avoiding some of the worst of the tariff
00:11:10 ◼ ► stuff and getting exemptions for things and you know it's it's a terrible situation our our company
00:11:16 ◼ ► our country is in a bad situation and this is how tim cook is dealing with it and i don't think he
00:11:21 ◼ ► should be ceo anymore but not for this specific reason but it's certainly on the pile for reasons
00:11:25 ◼ ► but if we had a different ceo who was acting differently and was stridently against it or whatever
00:11:28 ◼ ► there'd be other harms to apple from that as well and you know maybe that's the better way to go
00:11:34 ◼ ► but there's no really good there's no win scenario in this it's just a series of loss scenarios and it
00:11:42 ◼ ► depends on what kind of loss you're willing to endure how much what damage are you willing to do
00:11:46 ◼ ► to what parts of what things and which people and obviously marco disagrees with the damage that
00:11:53 ◼ ► tim is choosing to uh inflict on apple and its employees and its reputation uh but tim seems to think
00:12:01 ◼ ► this is the right thing to do anyway he should go for other reasons but you know whatever reasons
00:12:06 ◼ ► you have for wanting tim cook to step aside and let someone else uh run the show uh if we can all agree
00:12:12 ◼ ► on that then we're making some progress see tim cook he he knows exactly as much about apple's brand
00:12:20 ◼ ► as he does about computers software and design god help me for defending him because i think this is
00:12:26 ◼ ► disgusting but you've put me in this position explaining why something is happening is not
00:12:31 ◼ ► defending it right i think there's two different things there like i disagree with marco about why
00:12:35 ◼ ► this is happening but i agree with him that it's bad yes exactly so the reason this is happening is
00:12:40 ◼ ► because he's the tim cook is the head of this giant ass company with thousands upon thousands of
00:12:45 ◼ ► employees and he knows that to some degree this company is screwed if he doesn't bend over and kiss the
00:12:51 ◼ ► ring but no honestly are they yes are they like can we challenge that for a minute because that's that's
00:12:56 ◼ ► what everyone i'm not saying that you are wrong that's what everyone else is saying too what would
00:12:59 ◼ ► the actual damage be if apple had to pay the tariffs like everyone else does first of all wouldn't that
00:13:06 ◼ ► just be fair second of all like okay their prices would go up they would take a hit to margin their
00:13:13 ◼ ► stock price might suffer a little bit they're not going to go out of business we're all going to we're all
00:13:17 ◼ ► going to still have iphones you know like every tariff the the cost would be mostly borne by the
00:13:23 ◼ ► public the public who by the way voted for this guy um so they kind of deserve it that's what we're
00:13:29 ◼ ► talking about and the department of justice would probably continue its you know various investigations
00:13:34 ◼ ► towards various anti-competitive and monopolistic behavior that apple does i think they're going to
00:13:38 ◼ ► do that anyway by the way i don't think they're getting out of the doj stuff no matter how much they
00:13:41 ◼ ► bribe oh you'd be well we'll see we'll see how that goes that's to be determined right but certainly that i
00:13:45 ◼ ► guarantee that's part of this but like what we're what everyone is arguing who's saying that tim cook
00:13:50 ◼ ► has to do this for various strategic or financial reasons is that participating in direct support of
00:13:56 ◼ ► this dictator is a better idea than taking a couple of quarters of a stock price hit because they would
00:14:04 ◼ ► be subject to the same rules that literally every company would be subject to no you're you're putting
00:14:09 ◼ ► some words in my mouth here and i understand why because if i were in your shoes i'd probably say the same
00:14:13 ◼ ► thing but what i'm saying to you is it is tim's responsibility to do right by apple and i i agree
00:14:21 ◼ ► with you marco that i think i would i would like to think i would make different choices but ultimately
00:14:26 ◼ ► he is responsible to do right by apple that his literally his job is to do right by apple and when
00:14:32 ◼ ► he looks at the chessboard in front of him the way you do right by apple is give the toddler in the in
00:14:37 ◼ ► the oval office a shiny toy to play with i agree with you it's disgusting it's deplorable i hate every
00:14:44 ◼ ► bit of it i'm not arguing any of that but i can absolutely see that if i'm tim and if i am if i am
00:14:52 ◼ ► willing to do whatever it takes to make apple successful then i'm doing this now i don't think
00:14:58 ◼ ► i would make that same choice i think i would say well you know what tough nuts this is the world we
00:15:02 ◼ ► you know like you said this is the world we that the american public somehow voted for so this is
00:15:08 ◼ ► where we are but that's why i'm not tim cook right and i think that his his actions while i simultaneously
00:15:14 ◼ ► find them deplorable are extraordinarily explicable yeah i mean it's it's the you know having to be
00:15:21 ◼ ► subject to the same rules as everyone else it's a situation where all the other big tech companies
00:15:24 ◼ ► are doing essentially the same thing and if everyone else is doing the wrong thing and apple sits it out
00:15:29 ◼ ► and does the right thing presumably they would suffer more than their competitors so whatever
00:15:33 ◼ ► hit that we think it would be and you know maybe tim cook has numbers on this and we just have
00:15:37 ◼ ► speculation about what it would actually be whatever damage it would be would be magnified by the fact
00:15:41 ◼ ► that they would be a standout in a company that is not kissing his butt um but i think the universities
00:15:47 ◼ ► have shown uh that trying to kiss his butt uh is a losing proposition so uh well so so far it's been
00:15:55 ◼ ► working better for tim cook than it has for the universities because universities that bent over
00:15:58 ◼ ► backwards that yeah we'll do whatever you want they just have more and more demands right whereas
00:16:02 ◼ ► apple and tim again with his you know this is uh one of his greatest skills as we've discussed in the
00:16:09 ◼ ► past is knowing how to deal with uh dictators from his experience with china right knowing how to deal
00:16:14 ◼ ► with uh governments that are uh you know not not working according to the normal rules so yeah i think
00:16:22 ◼ ► he thinks he's navigating this well history will see how well uh he is actually navigating it there there
00:16:28 ◼ ► are a lot of risks here like there and the risks uh probably outweigh the short-term benefits but uh
00:16:34 ◼ ► soon marco will be uh marco soon tim cook will be retired uh and it'll be the next person's problem
00:16:39 ◼ ► yeah he can tank the company's reputation and uh yeah and then just pass it along great great good job as
00:16:45 ◼ ► american ceo that's perfect all right let's move on let's do some follow-up uh hd tv test has done
00:16:52 ◼ ► things i don't think anyone cares but john so let's move on no this is important to marco about the tv
00:16:57 ◼ ► i'm kidding i'm kidding this is my favorite tv reviewer of instantio from hd tv test he got around
00:17:02 ◼ ► to reviewing the sony bravi a2 and also the panasonic z95b um and so we'll link to those two reviews in the
00:17:09 ◼ ► show notes which i hadn't heard from him on those two things he's my favorite reviewer even if i don't always
00:17:13 ◼ ► exactly agree with him i like the way he approaches things and he always has lots of good information
00:17:17 ◼ ► uh related to that there was the tv shootout results the value electronics tv shootout that uh the verge
00:17:24 ◼ ► uh anelia patel uh participates in what i like to that you're skipping something important here sir
00:17:30 ◼ ► what am i uh yeah now that's how the tables have turned haha uh so almost immediately and to your
00:17:36 ◼ ► credit you did note this in our internal show notes but almost immediately in the hd tv test uh review of
00:17:41 ◼ ► the bravia 8 2 he says the bravia 8 what i didn't know that marco did bravia 8 mark too but he's he's
00:17:49 ◼ ► uh he lives in the uk so yeah they say all sorts of weird things i didn't know anything maybe i think
00:17:55 ◼ ► he put that in and forgot that he probably did that's probably true because this was like two weeks ago
00:17:58 ◼ ► uh but yes that's probably true and yes he did say the son sonia is apparently what i put in our show
00:18:04 ◼ ► notes wow uh anyway sony bravia 8 mark 2 which if you recall a certain co-host of mine john uh was
00:18:13 ◼ ► making merciless fun of me for calling my airpods pro mark twos mark twos you're not from the uk and
00:18:19 ◼ ► that's not what the company calls it and also uh he says panasonic zed 95b you want to start saying zed
00:18:25 ◼ ► no that's ridiculous but i'm taking the w i'm taking the w on the mark too anyway all right so
00:18:31 ◼ ► in the tv shootout the the uh the shocker headline from the verge was like uh actually they put the
00:18:36 ◼ ► word shock in there inside the lgg5 shocking last place finish so i just give some context on that
00:18:41 ◼ ► there were four televisions in the in the uh shootout it was the sony bravia 2 the samsung
00:18:47 ◼ ► s95 to f the panasonic z95b and the lgg5 and the lgg5 came in last place which means fourth place
00:18:53 ◼ ► against the other top three tvs and you can read the article to explain why i'm here to say that
00:18:59 ◼ ► having seen both of these reviews from vince teo on the solid new bravia 2 and the panasonic z95b
00:19:05 ◼ ► my recommendation to marco is still the lgg5 because the uh bravia 2 just isn't better enough
00:19:19 ◼ ► samsung is out because of no dolby vision i don't like how they handle colors the panasonic is weird
00:19:24 ◼ ► and doesn't flush mount against the wall very well and has a speaker on the bottom and i think it's ugly
00:19:29 ◼ ► uh and the lgg5 is just brighter than all of them it does hg really well marco's familiar with the lg
00:19:36 ◼ ► interface uh and it's a really good tv and so that's why it is still my recommendation for marco
00:19:41 ◼ ► and i would personally probably get the bravia uh mark ii i would not get the panasonic because
00:19:47 ◼ ► it's too ugly and i hate their fire interface thing but it's actually a decent tv but yeah the lgg5 is
00:19:52 ◼ ► just brighter than all of them uh and i have faith that lg will continue to update its firmware to deal
00:19:57 ◼ ► with whatever issues were causing it to end up in last place on this thing they already did fix the
00:20:01 ◼ ► firmware problem that was causing it to lose out to some other tvs earlier so they are fast on their feet
00:20:06 ◼ ► still my recommendation for marco specific case lgg5 it wall mounts real easily it looks real good
00:20:11 ◼ ► it has the lg interface you like it gets real bright and it's an oled so one one other um you know point
00:20:17 ◼ ► to add to the pile so i do have an lg uh oled that you know whatever like the c7 the 2017 one i guess
00:20:26 ◼ ► um i forget whether it's c5 or c7 whatever it is like one of those that that has been fine but that
00:20:32 ◼ ► was a long time ago my more recent tvs are the samsung frames which are terrible one of them
00:20:38 ◼ ► already has a giant blue stripe through they were even terrible when they were new and working
00:20:41 ◼ ► perfectly anyway um those are the ones that i'd be looking to replace at least one of them
00:20:45 ◼ ► the samsung frame the other day as i was watching a show put up a big notification in the upper right
00:20:51 ◼ ► corner saying something like our privacy policies have been updated and i had to dismiss it i just like
00:20:56 ◼ ► dig out like the samsung remote which i never use i'm just using the apple tv remote usually find the
00:21:01 ◼ ► samsung remote and dismiss this thing from the overlay from the upper right you know third of
00:21:07 ◼ ► my screen what i would like now i also like samsung's interface also even when it is not bothering me about
00:21:15 ◼ ► that kind of stuff the interface they have to switch inputs is the most convoluted like you it basically
00:21:23 ◼ ► has its own like app list on the bottom across the bottom of like the home screen because it's trying
00:21:30 ◼ ► to be the smart tv and to switch inputs you can't just push one button like on every tv that came before
00:21:35 ◼ ► it you have to like you know hit whatever like the home menu button is and like navigate through that
00:21:40 ◼ ► giant menu which as it very slowly tries to load whatever the hell it's trying to load i have i've never
00:21:47 ◼ ► had a tv that i've hated more than my samsung tv now at the restaurant there are two other samsung tvs
00:21:55 ◼ ► they are just as annoying and they're from different times um so i have to imagine that you know that
00:22:02 ◼ ► whatever the five-year-old one i have in my house here and then however old the restaurant ones are
00:22:05 ◼ ► i have to imagine this is the thing that samsung is probably presumably still doing i don't like
00:22:10 ◼ ► samsung's interfaces either whatever tv i get next i want i don't care if it has smart features or not
00:22:17 ◼ ► i wouldn't use them probably i want to be able to turn off any of that complexity and just like
00:22:25 ◼ ► let me switch inputs with a button on the remote can you do that on your current lg i think so i mean
00:22:33 ◼ ► i'm not as familiar with the new lg interfaces but i think if you could do it on your c7 you should be
00:22:37 ◼ ► i'll do i know i can do it on the sony one it's just it's a single button it's input although i
00:22:41 ◼ ► rarely press it because i have a receiver so it's always on the same input but you know i know i can
00:22:44 ◼ ► do it on the sony and i'm assuming on the current sony's you can do it i i recommended lg too because
00:22:48 ◼ ► you've been using the lg interface and it hasn't been driving you nuts so i hope you can turn things
00:22:53 ◼ ► off on that i mean all the tvs are smart tvs there's actually a video from vincent ceo of hg tv test on
00:22:59 ◼ ► how to turn off all the things on the sony thing like turn off all the apps turn off all the
00:23:03 ◼ ► information gathering like it makes the interface faster if you use that interface which i don't
00:23:06 ◼ ► but there are things you can turn off and i'm presumably in lg there's other places where
00:23:10 ◼ ► you can turn things off but yeah that like there's no getting around the fact that every tv is a smart
00:23:15 ◼ ► tv there is no such thing as a dumb tv for consumers that you can buy that has as good a picture as the
00:23:19 ◼ ► ones we're describing here yeah but and but all this is to say like even if samsung made the best option
00:23:25 ◼ ► available i would never buy it because i hate using samsung tvs so much and they don't so don't worry
00:23:30 ◼ ► good but so all this is to say like the the exact best specs if the number one model has an annoying
00:23:38 ◼ ► interface and the number two model doesn't i would pick the number two model even if it's not quite as
00:23:43 ◼ ► good a specs just because i've learned that's the thing that matters to me yeah that's one of the
00:23:47 ◼ ► things that's soured me on panasonic is they they have a i don't know if it's just i you know this was
00:23:51 ◼ ► in the i don't know if it's just in the uk or but anyways they use the fire tv interface which i really
00:23:56 ◼ ► dislike uh and they used to roll their own which was very minimal and i kind of enjoyed but yeah
00:24:02 ◼ ► you know sony uses google which i find passable but again i don't use like like you i don't like i
00:24:06 ◼ ► never see the smart tv interface ever so it doesn't really matter what it does as long as it doesn't
00:24:11 ◼ ► present itself to my face so again i still say lgd5 get a return policy if the if the uh software has
00:24:17 ◼ ► really annoyed you but form factor wise and performance wise i think that is your pick and second
00:24:21 ◼ ► pick if you can't tolerate that one as i go with the sony bra vh because i know their interface and
00:24:25 ◼ ► is uh fairly unobtrusive that's glowing reviews uh all right let's talk apple care one uh dave penn
00:24:34 ◼ ► writes a reddit user called you independent 69 15 has created an app called i care calculator currently
00:24:41 ◼ ► in test flight that you should take a look at uh then so reading from that reddit post that person's
00:24:47 ◼ ► reddit post i made a small ios app called i care calculator it's now available in test flight just to
00:24:50 ◼ ► add all your apple devices to the list and the apple recommend the most cost-effective plan showing a
00:24:54 ◼ ► quick monthly price comparison between apple care plus and apple care one when possible it even
00:24:58 ◼ ► recommends a smart split that combines both plans to help you save even more money uh then there was
00:25:04 ◼ ► a different link where that or we will put in a link that was a link to that i was trying to save you
00:25:08 ◼ ► from all that which i think you added in that was the in the reddit link if you follow it you'll find
00:25:12 ◼ ► out oops it's been removed by the mods for whatever for whatever subreddit reason apparently the mod
00:25:17 ◼ ► said that kind of post is not allowed and everyone in that reddit thread uh the post has been removed
00:25:22 ◼ ► but the comments are still there everyone in the reddit thread said this should be a website instead
00:25:25 ◼ ► of an app so the test flight doesn't work anymore test flight link doesn't work anymore i don't even
00:25:29 ◼ ► know if the app still exists but guess what now it's a website indeed and so you can go to i care
00:25:34 ◼ ► hyphen calculator dot versell dot app and you can try it out yeah and this i feel like this is something
00:25:40 ◼ ► that apple's you know interface to apple care one should be telling you just like it does when it
00:25:45 ◼ ► initially gives you the come on hey join apple care one and you'll save x number dollars per month
00:25:50 ◼ ► that calculator should always be active so when you add devices it should be telling you don't add
00:25:54 ◼ ► that you'll be paying two dollars more a month or do add that you'll be saving this much more a month
00:25:59 ◼ ► but it doesn't so that leaves room for this app uh so check it out we'll put the link in the notes
00:26:03 ◼ ► um i've been battling with apple care one i mentioned last time that i had added my son's
00:26:10 ◼ ► macbook air and showed me some orange text uh that it was going to be removed soon and i had to like
00:26:15 ◼ ► sign into it with my apple id because everything in apple care one has to be on the same apple id so
00:26:19 ◼ ► i made an account on my son's mac and signed into it and the orange text went away and then i got an
00:26:24 ◼ ► email that said it had been removed and just this is battle right and every time it gets added it like
00:26:30 ◼ ► cancels the previous one and gives me a refund and gets impeded back or whatever anyway um a couple
00:26:35 ◼ ► things in this one people asking me about this on mastodon and i realized even though apple's own
00:26:41 ◼ ► documentation which we read last episode said all the devices on apple care one have to be on the
00:26:46 ◼ ► same apple id it prompted me with its initial come on to say you should add john's iphone 16 pro
00:26:53 ◼ ► tina's iphone 15 pro and you know one of the macs in the house or whatever my wife's phone doesn't
00:26:59 ◼ ► have my apple id on it because someone asked do you share an apple id with your wife said no she's got
00:27:03 ◼ ► her own i've never signed into my apple id on any of her phones they're her phones and it yeah and
00:27:09 ◼ ► yet it prompted me that that's one of the three devices that should be part of the 19 a month or
00:27:13 ◼ ► whatever so currently my apple care one plan has my phone my wife's phone and a mac on it or no and
00:27:21 ◼ ► i and my ipad i think as part of the three that you get for 1999 or whatever so i don't know what
00:27:26 ◼ ► explains that maybe in the initial apple care one thing it doesn't care what apple id things are on
00:27:30 ◼ ► but every time i try to add my son's macbook air it lets me add it and then sends me an obnoxious
00:27:38 ◼ ► email a day later that says your apple care one add-on has been canceled per your request
00:27:43 ◼ ► oh no i'm sorry it's not per my request you just did it yourself and i keep in his emails per your
00:27:47 ◼ ► request we've canceled your apple care one and get you a refund for three dollars and 86 cents and it's
00:27:51 ◼ ► like and then what do i see when i go into the uh you know settings general apple care on my phone
00:27:57 ◼ ► i see alex's macbook air coverage expired and then orange text it says eligible to add to apple care
00:28:03 ◼ ► plan is it eligible because it seems like it's not it will let me add it and then two days later it will
00:28:08 ◼ ► say your apple care one has been canceled per your request and so i've given up i cannot add my son's
00:28:13 ◼ ► macbook air because every time i add it two days go by and then i get an obnoxious email telling me
00:28:18 ◼ ► it's been removed from my request and then my wife yells at me because our credit card bill is like
00:28:29 ◼ ► it seems broken to me so i don't know what the deal is everybody it seems like the come on that tells you
00:28:35 ◼ ► how much you could save is real and adding your own devices should work fine but if you're trying
00:28:40 ◼ ► to add a mac that happens to have an account with your apple id on it apparently they'll let you do
00:28:44 ◼ ► it and entice you to do it and ask i mean i'm being prompted everywhere add this add alex's macbook air
00:28:49 ◼ ► but and it will let me add it but then it rejects it so i'm a little bit soured on apple care one but
00:28:54 ◼ ► now i'm kind of committed to it cool all right uh with regard to buying new macs bruce steinberg
00:29:01 ◼ ► writes one amazing thing about bnh photo video is that they stock built order macs available for express
00:29:07 ◼ ► shipping overnight in the new york city region often at a discount even better they sell off
00:29:11 ◼ ► their inventory of last generation macs at sometimes enormous discounts several years back i got a
00:29:16 ◼ ► macbook pro m1 max with maxed out ram for 50 off not a refer brand new shortly after the m2 macbook pros
00:29:23 ◼ ► come out you can also add apple care plus directly to your order and they have all the build to order
00:29:27 ◼ ► options for the current generation max there's really no reason to choose to buy from apple rather
00:29:32 ◼ ► than bnh especially because they provide a 30-day return window rather than 14 days aside from the
00:29:38 ◼ ► mac pro which they only sell via special order for obvious reasons so i took a look at this and this
00:29:42 ◼ ► is mostly true like i went to see if i could find my mac or the m4 equivalent of my mac because i have an
00:29:48 ◼ ► m3 uh on in in mine was a built order and blah blah blah and i tried to find it and i couldn't find an
00:29:53 ◼ ► exact equivalent uh but i got surprisingly close and this is an eight terabyte hard drive this is
00:30:01 ◼ ► um 64 gigs of ram like this is not a terribly commonly built computer i don't think and it got
00:30:09 ◼ ► really really close so i was i was surprised yeah the key to this one is you have to wait until the
00:30:13 ◼ ► new ones have just been released and buy one of the old ones which is not what tech nerds want to do
00:30:17 ◼ ► they want the latest and greatest but you can get good deals and these are not like refurb it's just
00:30:21 ◼ ► them clearing inventory in the old-fashioned sense so it's a thing to watch out for uh sometimes you
00:30:26 ◼ ► can get super good deals oh sorry just to be clear what i'm talking about was i i tried to find an m4 a
00:30:31 ◼ ► brand new equivalent of my current computer just to see you know what build to order style options do
00:30:36 ◼ ► they have and the point i'm trying to make and maybe i failed was that they do have a surprising
00:30:40 ◼ ► amount as bruce said of build to order like options where you can get a lot more than you would
00:30:46 ◼ ► expect you know a lot more different combinations than you would expect um and certainly more than
00:30:50 ◼ ► what it what an apple store would carry um but your point is about discount yeah i guess they just buy
00:30:55 ◼ ► the inventory and like guess at what people will want and then that's why they end up being on sales
00:31:02 ◼ ► eventually they've just got them hanging around and the new computers are coming out and they just got
00:31:05 ◼ ► to get rid of these old configs that didn't sell yeah all right uh let's talk about retro
00:31:10 ◼ ► computing on the web this is i presume a carry on from overtime last week where we're two weeks ago
00:31:15 ◼ ► whatever where we spoke about um that really cool website where you can use all the different
00:31:20 ◼ ► versions of mac os and look at preferences and settings and whatnot uh tell me about eworld john
00:31:24 ◼ ► what the heck is eworld uh eworld was uh it was remember aol remember the original aol interface um
00:31:31 ◼ ► i believe the company that i don't know the historical details of this but i believe the company that made
00:31:36 ◼ ► that aol interface at least in the mac sort of like white labeled that thing where they would make an
00:31:42 ◼ ► online service like that for anybody and you just apply like the artwork so apple essentially made
00:31:47 ◼ ► their own aol type thing called eworld based on the same software as the aol client for the mac i believe
00:31:52 ◼ ► at the time uh and it was a silly online thing in the sort of pre widespread internet days uh anyway
00:32:00 ◼ ► this is an archive.org uh web link to a website that is no longer online that tries to reproduce the
00:32:08 ◼ ► experience of using eworld similar to the like control panel thing we talked about in overtime last time
00:32:14 ◼ ► that has like it shows you the computer right with like the monitor and everything and then it runs the
00:32:20 ◼ ► like the crt has little scan lines on and everything and then it runs it but this is not
00:32:24 ◼ ► emulation this is not running the original mac software this is like a reproduction using i don't
00:32:32 ◼ ► know does it use flash does it use i don't even know what it uses but it's not the real software
00:32:35 ◼ ► um one of the fun things about it not using the real software is that it can do things that actual
00:32:41 ◼ ► emulation has some difficulty with so for example making the modem screeching noise when you connect
00:32:47 ◼ ► like that's not part of the the modem noise comes from a hardware device that's connected to your mac
00:32:51 ◼ ► so if you emulate mac os you're not getting that noise but in this little thing they'll they'll give
00:32:55 ◼ ► you that noise right the reason i know it's not emulation though is because it's very convincing
00:33:01 ◼ ► they do a really good job like i recognize a lot of the software it's running is because of one of the
00:33:05 ◼ ► things that we discussed uh when talking about the control panel thing from uh overtime um the way the
00:33:12 ◼ ► menus work whoever wrote this forgot to implement the thing where if you click on the file menu and hold
00:33:18 ◼ ► down the mouse cursor and then move the hold down the mouse button and then move the cursor down
00:33:23 ◼ ► and release that it should select a menu item they just forgot that that's how one of the ways that
00:33:29 ◼ ► you could use mac menu so that doesn't work at all as i'm like okay this isn't running mac os this is a
00:33:35 ◼ ► clever web-based simulation of mac os and i thought that was a interesting to see because that's one of the
00:33:41 ◼ ► beauties of of like actually running the the real mac os software through 15 layers of you know javascript
00:33:49 ◼ ► and web assembly or whatever they need to do is because you get the real behaviors when you try to
00:33:54 ◼ ► simulate it you're relying on the person who's creating the faked interface to know how everything
00:33:59 ◼ ► worked and this person obviously just assumed well of course you click on the menu and then you release
00:34:03 ◼ ► the button and then you go into the item you want and you click on it again that's how menus work
00:34:06 ◼ ► they work another way too at least first of all they work that way now so they should have known
00:34:11 ◼ ► if they're using a mac now that you can do it that way but second of all they definitely work that way
00:34:14 ◼ ► back in classic mac os days so i thought that was funny i also think it's cool this website works on
00:34:20 ◼ ► archive.org because so many things with just images in them break on archive.org so if you want to see
00:34:25 ◼ ► e-world or a weird simulation of e-world check it out link will be in the notes all right let's talk
00:34:32 ◼ ► about tahoe in the new beta and so on apparently a friend of the show gus mueller wrote and will we
00:34:39 ◼ ► have a screen capture of this i honestly thought that the checkbox button was missing in this mac os
00:34:44 ◼ ► tahoe screenshot and there's a screenshot right folder and trash the folder trash is currently in the trash
00:34:50 ◼ ► then there's a message do not show this message again okay and i looked at this after having read his
00:34:56 ◼ ► message about the checkbox for a solid 60 seconds before i found where the checkbox was it's to the
00:35:03 ◼ ► left of the words do not show this message again i could not find it i am not making this up i
00:35:07 ◼ ► genuinely was deeply confused for a really too long amount of time yeah so this is this is not beta 5
00:35:13 ◼ ► this was i believe beta 4 and it's relevant because just like the day or two before i saw this post i was
00:35:20 ◼ ► talking to someone about the disaster that is the tahoe interface and i said have you seen what
00:35:24 ◼ ► unchecked checkboxes look like that was the specific example i chose because i couldn't believe it uh
00:35:30 ◼ ► and anyway apparently people are discovering what unchecked checkboxes look like in tahoe and on
00:35:37 ◼ ► the background of a dialogue they're basically invisible i didn't look at the rgb values for this
00:35:46 ◼ ► and see for yourself if you can see the checkbox and if you think that's what an unchecked checkbox
00:35:52 ◼ ► should look like in any circumstance it isn't what it should look like ever and i believe and also i
00:35:58 ◼ ► believe it is not a disabled checkbox this is an enabled actively clickable unchecked checkbox
00:36:04 ◼ ► yeah it's i mean this you know like what you know when the rumors were that they were going to be a big
00:36:11 ◼ ► redesign of all the systems i believe one of our concerns was that you know the mac seems like it's
00:36:18 ◼ ► it doesn't hasn't got a lot of attention recently in design and that when it does get attention it seems
00:36:23 ◼ ► like it is the last priority it seems like its design kind of has like the least effort put into it
00:36:28 ◼ ► and problems take a long time to get solved i think that's panning out like this new design
00:36:34 ◼ ► all the liquid glass era stuff like it's on the mac it seems like it makes the least sense on the mac
00:36:41 ◼ ► and there has been the least testing and this is the kind of thing you know like like what we saw
00:36:46 ◼ ► last time with the disk image selector which we're i guess we're about to talk about um but this is one
00:36:51 ◼ ► of the things like we're gonna have a lot of this kind of stuff on the mac of just like ways in which
00:36:56 ◼ ► the new design just falls down not because it can't be good but just because like stuff was changed and
00:37:05 ◼ ► it wasn't tested enough or it wasn't considered enough on the mac and that's the reality of them
00:37:10 ◼ ► doing a redesign these days so it just kind of goes along with territory someone in the chat room tried
00:37:15 ◼ ► to pull up the rgb values from i'm assuming from gus's um uh mastodon post uh and it's rgb 237
00:37:21 ◼ ► versus rgb 239 so difference of two they could get it he'd get it better if they just did 238 to 239
00:37:28 ◼ ► well they're great anyway one more thing from uh gus muley had another toot um he says trick question
00:37:36 ◼ ► is this tahoe slider enabled or disabled the answer is either it draws exactly the same either way
00:37:42 ◼ ► neat so i found this as well when messing with my mac apps that a lot of times controls that are
00:37:49 ◼ ► enabled look like they're disabled and then apparently in the case of this slider the enabled
00:37:55 ◼ ► and disabled state are exactly the same that's wonderful i mean that seems like a fundamental
00:38:01 ◼ ► problem like i've i've been you know adopting the new design for overcast and and just going through
00:38:07 ◼ ► different screens and figuring out you know how to how to do certain controls and everything
00:38:11 ◼ ► one of the challenges i'm having with the new design in adoption is there's a lot of you know
00:38:18 ◼ ► controls or or design consideration where i'm just like i don't think i can make this look good
00:38:23 ◼ ► like with with the current design language so i'm left with like okay do i do i you know buck the design
00:38:28 ◼ ► language and and go my own way which has a lot of downsides and a lot of costs and i think is risky
00:38:35 ◼ ► uh or do i adopt the design language and make something that i think is a little bit hard to see or hard to
00:38:40 ◼ ► distinguish or hard to use and that has its own set of trade-offs it's just this is this has been a very
00:38:46 ◼ ► difficult design language to adopt um you know as soon as your app does not look exactly like apple's pretty
00:38:53 ◼ ► screenshots and even when it does sometimes um it's just it's very hard to work with this design language
00:39:00 ◼ ► effectively and you know certainly by us running into this as we try to adopt our apps to use it
00:39:07 ◼ ► certainly apple's internal developers for apple's apps have probably had similar challenges like
00:39:14 ◼ ► it's it's a really hard language to use and in a way that is you know usable and clear and versatile
00:39:22 ◼ ► across lots of different content and so again you know i mean i don't know who who uses computers
00:39:28 ◼ ► more alan dyer tim cook but it's hard it's hard to see like how do they get out of this like i'm not
00:39:36 ◼ ► asking them to throw away the whole design but there's a lot of parts of it that need i think
00:39:41 ◼ ► substantially more tweaks than what we are likely to see in the next handful of weeks before release so
00:39:47 ◼ ► this is what's going to ship basically uh and we're gonna have a lot of stuff you can't see on
00:39:52 ◼ ► the mac and we'll have to deal with it well good news on the tweaking front now getting to tahoe beta 5
00:39:57 ◼ ► which was released today i believe um they did quote unquote fix the startup disk thing uh and by fix i
00:40:05 ◼ ► mean uh they changed it to be the same amount of contrast it had in sequoia which as i said in the
00:40:10 ◼ ► last episode when we talked about this it was already bad in sequoia so changing it back to be what it was
00:40:15 ◼ ► like in sequoia is not really fixing it but at least it's doing no harm so previously in beta 4 it was
00:40:21 ◼ ► like a 1.5 percent difference in uh dark and rgb values between the gray of the background and the
00:40:28 ◼ ► gray of the selection now it's back up to 3.1 which is double what it was in beta 4 which is pretty
00:40:32 ◼ ► much exactly what it was in sequoia so i don't know if that was on purpose or by accident probably
00:40:36 ◼ ► by accident because that seems a lot of things happen here but yeah they should really be cranking up
00:40:41 ◼ ► the contrast dial on a lot of things in tahoe and at least this one little corner of the us
00:40:45 ◼ ► is no longer getting worse in beta 5 but who knows what beta 6 will bring oh and they changed the hard
00:40:51 ◼ ► drive icons to be the hideous uh things where there's no vanishing point but uh there was a whole
00:40:56 ◼ ► surprisingly large dust up about that across the entire little uh community including multiple
00:41:02 ◼ ► web i think even the verge ran a story on it over the hard drive icon anyway it is hideous it is bad it
00:41:07 ◼ ► doesn't look good it's dumb it's really like so much in in uh in liquid glass but in the end it's
00:41:11 ◼ ► just a hard drive icon so it's whatever but it's like the perspective is so comically wrong like when
00:41:16 ◼ ► you see it it kind of breaks your brain a little bit and it makes you wonder like how did this get
00:41:21 ◼ ► into it like how did this get out of apple how did this get out of like the designer's desk who made
00:41:25 ◼ ► it like it's really weird like the perspective is so comically wrong did you see the thing that i uh
00:41:33 ◼ ► retweeted of someone who 3d modeled it in blender to show how it would work like an l-shaped l-shaped
00:41:39 ◼ ► so when you you make it l-shaped so when you turned it head on the l-shaped one looks exactly like apple's
00:41:44 ◼ ► one because it doesn't make any sense from from it has no vanishing point and you can see the top of
00:41:49 ◼ ► it completely but also the front of it and it's just it's it's bad uh whatever like hopefully they
00:41:56 ◼ ► will tweak these icons and next year's release and we'll get some kind of improvement i'm i'm mostly
00:42:01 ◼ ► upset that they don't they don't look appealing to me like i don't i don't think they look good
00:42:06 ◼ ► especially for things like hard drive icons it's like it doesn't really have much of you know it
00:42:10 ◼ ► could have been a place for them to try to come up with it it's a difficult problem right because
00:42:14 ◼ ► hard drives are no longer physical drives inside our computers they're like chips that are soldered
00:42:19 ◼ ► onto our motherboards or you know like they're it's hard to think of how i'd represent them with an
00:42:24 ◼ ► icon so it's a fun problem and apple's like no we're not we're not dealing with that problem we're
00:42:28 ◼ ► just going to show for the internal drive we're going to show an abstracted version of what external
00:42:33 ◼ ► drives look like in the past decade in an incorrect perspective and unappealing art style so good job
00:42:38 ◼ ► like i like i understand i mean granted you know this is this must this gotta hit home with you with the
00:42:46 ◼ ► hyperspace icon but i understand that they wanted to get away from the old hard drive icon because it
00:42:52 ◼ ► look like a hard drive and no modern max really have hard drives anymore a spinning hard drive yes
00:42:58 ◼ ► a hard drive yeah so i understand wanting to get away with what want to get away from that and wanted to
00:43:04 ◼ ► freshen up the icon but don't do it if you're gonna do this like this like if you're gonna freshen it up
00:43:10 ◼ ► do a good job like if no one is forcing they haven't sold hard drives on max for a long time
00:43:26 ◼ ► yeah when i i came up with the design idea for the hyperspace icon i was talking with the artist at
00:43:31 ◼ ► icon factory who was doing it we discussed this very point are we sure you want to do a spinning
00:43:35 ◼ ► disk and i was like no it should definitely be a spinning disk like i'm not saying that people have
00:43:41 ◼ ► it looks better in the icon for it to be a spinning disk and anyone who's going to buy my
00:43:45 ◼ ► app is probably old enough to remember spinning disks and i was like it's gonna you know and so
00:43:49 ◼ ► to be clear i'm not changing my icon it's going to be spinning disks forever think of it as a retro
00:43:53 ◼ ► thing all right justin bradford writes with regard to ejecting usb storage on windows in version 1809 of
00:44:01 ◼ ► windows 10 which was around 2019 microsoft changed the default behavior of usb storage devices to
00:44:05 ◼ ► disable cache rights to allow removal of a drive basically anytime the drive appears idle there's an
00:44:10 ◼ ► option for the old method but then it is recommended that you click the dialogue that marco was talking
00:44:14 ◼ ► about to write the cache and then eject the drive i have to imagine this was the result of many many
00:44:19 ◼ ► users corrupting a thumb drive by removing it while it right was active here's a link with more info
00:44:23 ◼ ► which we'll put in the show notes uh the default removal policy from that link the default removal
00:44:28 ◼ ► policy for external storage media was changed by microsoft and windows 10 version 1809 from better
00:44:33 ◼ ► performance to quick removal which for some users may translate to faster removal times with degraded
00:44:38 ◼ ► quick removal yeah we'll just make it be slow all the time to give you the ability to yank it out
00:44:43 ◼ ► whenever you feel like it because you can't be trusted to unmount things this is why you can't
00:44:46 ◼ ► have nice things then finally we have a couple topics with regard to the art and science of user
00:44:51 ◼ ► interface design anonymous right syracuse is probably almost right in that the science is lost in ui design
00:44:57 ◼ ► it's not lost in the games industry i work at a very large games company we employ ux researchers
00:45:01 ◼ ► and all aspects of our games are tested on regular people their reactions to the menus game mechanics
00:45:07 ◼ ► etc are recorded and studied this is an interesting case here because what's different about the games
00:45:12 ◼ ► industry than the computer industry today the difference is the games industry is fiercely competitive
00:45:18 ◼ ► especially if you are making a game and you're not one of the platform like this you know there's
00:45:22 ◼ ► not too many platformers but lots of companies make games if you make a game there's not much barrier
00:45:28 ◼ ► for someone deciding not to play or not to buy or not to subscribe to or whatever your game and to go
00:45:34 ◼ ► to somebody else's game because there's not a lot of game lock-in so you have to like there's competition
00:45:41 ◼ ► i'm saying people want to make games that people enjoy playing and so in a competitive environment
00:45:47 ◼ ► yeah you better believe they employ ux researchers to figure out can people figure out how to play our game
00:45:52 ◼ ► do they get frustrated is it easy to use like all these user interface things that the games industry
00:45:57 ◼ ► wants those people because it contributes to their bottom line in what situation would that not contribute
00:46:02 ◼ ► to the bottom line what if there's massive platform lock-in like on windows or mac or ios or android or whatever
00:46:08 ◼ ► where there's not a lot of platforms to choose from and then once you commit to one it's a monetary investment
00:46:12 ◼ ► it's an investment of skills and learning how the ecosystem works buying apps for it all that other stuff
00:46:16 ◼ ► it just shows how uncompetitive our technology market personal computers and phones and ipads all
00:46:25 ◼ ► that all that stuff is compared to another technology-based market of games where there are tons of game
00:46:30 ◼ ► companies and tons of games fighting tooth and nail to get those consumers to play their game and not
00:46:35 ◼ ► somebody else's and i i mean i think that that's my explanation for why you know why it's so important
00:46:41 ◼ ► for them and not important because just look what's happening with uh with liquid glass which i will
00:46:45 ◼ ► continue to call liquid metal accidentally um yeah they're shipping it people are grumpy about it but
00:46:52 ◼ ► people are like yeah what are you gonna do switch to android it's it takes so much to uh you know
00:47:00 ◼ ► there's so much platform lock-in that like apple could be like yeah we ship an interface that people
00:47:05 ◼ ► don't really like or ship a version of photos that people complain about if we mess up the phone for a
00:47:09 ◼ ► little bit or whatever we can probably weather that storm because we'd have to really really mess up
00:47:15 ◼ ► for people to give up all the apps they bought and all the things they bought on all services and all
00:47:19 ◼ ► the skills and experience they have with our platform for them to leave us versus like you come out with
00:47:23 ◼ ► a cruddy version of call of duty and people go play a different fps and that happens all the time and
00:47:28 ◼ ► people aren't you know abandoning platforms as much so i think this is a uh you know the lack of
00:47:34 ◼ ► scientific rigor and user experience design in at apple and other major platforms is uh further
00:47:41 ◼ ► evidence of the lack of competition and then with regard to game design concepts and software west
00:47:46 ◼ ► davis writes when you guys talked about using game design approaches for software john talked about
00:47:50 ◼ ► the coyote time approach of letting a player jump moments after leading leaving a ledge for years i've
00:47:55 ◼ ► thought about exactly that concept every time an ios notification pops in right as i'm about to tap a
00:47:59 ◼ ► control at the top of the screen and hijacks what i was trying to do please apple give me a coyote time
00:48:03 ◼ ► for banner notifications coy notification time and uh the that that name is ridiculous but and i know
00:48:11 ◼ ► it was said in jest but this happens to me freaking constantly so this is a tricky problem the reason i put
00:48:17 ◼ ► this in here is because it's not as simple as the coyote time for like ledge jumping and stuff like that
00:48:22 ◼ ► there's no like oh they should obviously do this and it will fix it because the problem is you see the
00:48:26 ◼ ► screen you have a thought and then it takes some time for that thought to translate into motion and your
00:48:30 ◼ ► fingers touching the thing that's on the screen and between the time you decide to tap that button
00:48:35 ◼ ► and the signal goes down your arm and do your finger and you're going to tap like there's between that
00:48:39 ◼ ► when that happens a notification appears and it turns out your finger hits the screen just as the
00:48:43 ◼ ► notification appears you could kind of coyote time that to say okay notifications aren't tappable for
00:48:48 ◼ ► the first n milliseconds but then if you're really quick on the drawing you know notification is coming
00:48:53 ◼ ► and it comes up and you tap it and nothing happens it feels broken yeah because you're like well i i just
00:48:57 ◼ ► tapped it and so what do you what do you how many milliseconds do you set that time to be so it's this
00:49:02 ◼ ► is one of the things that's really hard to like dial in unless you have a very controlled situation where
00:49:07 ◼ ► you know exactly what the person is doing exactly what their reaction time is because both ways like
00:49:12 ◼ ► ignoring the clip click uh or tap or allowing the tap or like it's like allowing the tap to go to the
00:49:17 ◼ ► things underneath the notification because that's what you intended to hit because your finger started
00:49:20 ◼ ► moving before the notification appeared it's a really hard problem um a lot of the problems like
00:49:25 ◼ ► the coyote time thing and platforming are not that hard there are sort of known solutions for them and
00:49:29 ◼ ► you just have to implement them the right way but yeah this this happens to me this happens to everybody
00:49:33 ◼ ► uh it's tricky uh and that's that's one of the things about interfaces like you have to rethink like
00:49:37 ◼ ► say you were trying to make an interface for i don't want to do the uh like the navy ship that
00:49:43 ◼ ► crashed into something because it's a bad user interface but if you're trying to do an interface for like
00:49:45 ◼ ► uh steering a gigantic uh you know boat on the water maybe don't have things that pop up on the
00:49:52 ◼ ► screen over controls that people try to hit whereas on the phone that's the part of the interfaces
00:49:56 ◼ ► notifications appear and they just cover things that are on the screen that we just accept that because
00:50:00 ◼ ► the miss hitting a notification is not the same as miss steering a boat into another boat but yeah
00:50:05 ◼ ► that's part of the the design of the interfaces if you if it's really important for that never to happen
00:50:15 ◼ ► we are sponsored this episode by squarespace the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to
00:50:21 ◼ ► stand out and succeed online whether you're starting out or managing a growing brand squarespace makes
00:50:26 ◼ ► it easy to create a beautiful website engage with your audience and sell anything from your products
00:50:31 ◼ ► to your content to your time all in one place and all on your terms quite simply squarespace makes it
00:50:37 ◼ ► super easy to make really great websites for you and your business so you start out with their amazing
00:50:42 ◼ ► design intelligence this combines their two decades of design expertise with cutting-edge ai to unlock
00:50:48 ◼ ► your strongest creative potential it empowers anyone to build a beautiful more personalized website
00:50:53 ◼ ► tailored to their unique needs and craft a bespoke digital identity to use across their entire online
00:50:59 ◼ ► presence when your customers are ready to check out with your storefront squarespace payments handles
00:51:03 ◼ ► everything all in one place onboarding is fast and simple you get started in just a few clicks
00:51:08 ◼ ► you can start receiving payments right away with more ways to pay than ever with all sorts of payment methods
00:51:13 ◼ ► of course the credit cards and of course things like clarna ac extract debit apple pay after pay clear pay
00:51:18 ◼ ► and so much more so your customers can always pay the way they want to they're constantly adding new stuff
00:51:24 ◼ ► and you don't have to really do much to get it you normally get everything just by sitting there
00:51:28 ◼ ► so it's a great platform to keep your business moving forward and it's super easy for anybody to use
00:51:35 ◼ ► you don't have to be a nerd you don't have to write code you don't have to deal with software updates
00:51:38 ◼ ► none of that with squarespace so what's great you know if you're a nerd listening to our podcast
00:51:43 ◼ ► because you know let's be honest likely you can probably do this but there's other people in your life
00:51:48 ◼ ► who maybe don't want to rely on nerds to do their websites or you have a website for yourself
00:52:24 ◼ ► the leaker my jin boo today shared a photo of the alleged magsafe magnet arrays for third-party
00:52:29 ◼ ► iphone 17 pro cases on existing iphone models of magsafe the magnets form a complete circle but
00:52:34 ◼ ► the new layout has an opening in it and there is a link to my jin's official website and uh we will
00:52:42 ◼ ► also link the picture of the iphone 16 pro with a magsafe case where you can see clear as day that
00:52:48 ◼ ► there is a circle of magsafe magnets the apple logo is pretty much directly in the center of it
00:52:53 ◼ ► and in the 17 pro allegedly the apple logo has been moved down so it's kind of in the way of the bottom
00:53:03 ◼ ► so here's the thing if you look at the the my jin boo things where like the parts that he's got if you
00:53:08 ◼ ► scroll down the page and see like those teal little pieces you see that there's no apple logo on those
00:53:15 ◼ ► so while i'm willing to believe that this incomplete circle magsafe circle is the design for the back of
00:53:23 ◼ ► the phone because these parts leaks seem you know it's it's around that time that we'd be getting these
00:53:28 ◼ ► types of leaks i'm currently wondering what does that mean for the apple logo on the back of the
00:53:33 ◼ ► phone because i don't think they're going to put it where this mac rumors mock-up put it like they what
00:53:38 ◼ ► they did is they the back of the iphone 17 pro basically has a full width camera mesa and then
00:53:45 ◼ ► below it has another rounded rectangle and they put the apple logo in the center of the lower rounded
00:53:50 ◼ ► rectangle but the center of the lower rounded rectangle is not the center of the magsafe circle
00:53:55 ◼ ► it's lower than that so that's where the mock-up put the apple logo i guess you could just move the
00:54:00 ◼ ► apple logo up and put it in the center of the partial circle or what do you think of this no apple logo on
00:54:06 ◼ ► the back of the iphone 17 pro no way well so what's what's your what's your guess for where will the
00:54:12 ◼ ► apple logo be positioned or will there be one assuming that this magsafe design is true i think it'll be
00:54:17 ◼ ► where it is today just you know there's just gonna be less magsafe stuff beneath it so you think
00:54:23 ◼ ► it'll be centered in the partial circle mm-hmm well see it's interesting they chose not to do
00:54:28 ◼ ► that because i think one of the other rumors you'll see i think there are separate rumor stories that
00:54:31 ◼ ► are like the apple is going to be centered in the rounded rectangle not where it used to be
00:54:35 ◼ ► i don't know what to think i mean the actual back of the phone you don't see the magsafe shape
00:54:42 ◼ ► so this is only an issue when you have like a clear case this kind of thing i can see apple
00:54:54 ◼ ► no that's fair i i think ultimately the apple logo i think will remain in the middle of the circle
00:55:10 ◼ ► it it makes it puts it pretty far below the the like overall center of the phone and i think it kind
00:55:16 ◼ ► of just makes it look droopy like you don't want the apple logo to look like it's you know beneath
00:55:21 ◼ ► something obviously tim cook is beneath a lot of dignity right now but you don't want the apple logo
00:55:26 ◼ ► couldn't help yourself no of course not but you know you don't want the apple logo to be
00:55:30 ◼ ► down on on the shape of the phone you want it to be like prominent center or up like you don't want
00:55:36 ◼ ► it to be on the lower half and that's what this is depicting i can't see apple doing that yeah i
00:55:42 ◼ ► think they're still going to have the clear case i think the apple logo does actually look better
00:55:47 ◼ ► centered in the in the rectangular part just because if if it is styled as they're showing here where
00:55:52 ◼ ► it's like two color two tone like it's a different color than the rest of it so you can clearly see
00:55:55 ◼ ► it but uh i'm thinking back to do you remember the um the case the apple case with a bunch of holes in
00:56:02 ◼ ► it i think it was on that was it on the c phones yeah it was on the 5c i remember how badly those
00:56:07 ◼ ► holes lined up with like the apple logo or whatever there was on the back of the phone and people it
00:56:11 ◼ ► looked very on apple like i think they're willing to have awkward alignment between the phone body and
00:56:17 ◼ ► the case but we'll see this is one of the more interesting rumors this because these phones have been
00:56:21 ◼ ► so thoroughly leaked with like down to the fraction of a millimeter models of every single phone in
00:56:27 ◼ ► the lineup of being out for months now uh that this is this is one thing we that that it seems there
00:56:33 ◼ ► seems to be disagreement on is where the apple logo will go because the mock-ups for case designs don't
00:56:38 ◼ ► actually include that information because it's not important when you're designing a case because
00:56:41 ◼ ► the apple logo is not it's not indented it's not poking out it's just part of the flat surface so
00:56:45 ◼ ► keep an eye out for where will the apple logo be or will there be one i agree that will probably still be
00:56:50 ◼ ► all right uh apple's new answers team eyes chat gpt like product and ai push writes mark german
00:56:58 ◼ ► apple has a new answers team developing a stripped down rival to chat gpt to help users access world
00:57:03 ◼ ► knowledge earlier this year apple formed a new team called answers knowledge and information or aki
00:57:07 ◼ ► this group i'm told is exploring a number of in-house ai services with the goal of creating a new chat gpt
00:57:13 ◼ ► like search experience the aki team is led by our former friend robbie walker a senior director
00:57:18 ◼ ► reporting to ai chief john g and andrea walker previously oversaw siri but lost control of it
00:57:24 ◼ ► after engineering delays following that shakeup he was assigned to the new answers initiative
00:57:27 ◼ ► and has brought along several key team members from his siri days while still in early stages the team
00:57:33 ◼ ► is building what it calls an answer engine a system capable of crawling the web to respond to general
00:57:37 ◼ ► knowledge questions a standalone app is currently under exploration alongside new back-end infrastructure
00:57:42 ◼ ► meant to power search capabilities in future versions of siri spotlight and safari apple's recently begun
00:57:47 ◼ ► advertising job openings for the team on its career site several listings specifically mentioned
00:57:51 ◼ ► experience with circuit search algorithms and engine development i can't tell from this rumor
00:57:57 ◼ ► whether the answer engine thing is a search engine or is an llm or both because this is described as a
00:58:07 ◼ ► chat gpt like search experience when i think of an answers team i mean i guess it depends on what they're
00:58:15 ◼ ► being asked to answer but like i think there's still a place in apple's software stack for something they
00:58:24 ◼ ► can answer questions from like a knowledge base you know what i mean not make up statistically likely
00:58:30 ◼ ► answers from a knowledge base that it was trained on but like literally look stuff up kind of like what
00:58:36 ◼ ► you know gruber is going on about when the whole thing about like who won the super bowls you can just
00:58:40 ◼ ► put all the super bowl winners and the scores and info in like a structured database and have a thing that
00:58:44 ◼ ► knows how to pull that info out and it won't be wrong because it knows as long as it correctly
00:58:48 ◼ ► interprets which super bowl you're talking about it can look it up in the structured database and just
00:58:52 ◼ ► give you the answer that it has in its database and i guess the info in the database could be wrong but
00:58:57 ◼ ► you know once you get the database right there's not a lot of variability it will give you the scores
00:59:01 ◼ ► it will give you the teams it will give you the years it will give you whatever is in the database
00:59:04 ◼ ► that's not an llm the llm may parse your question but this could be a tool that the llm uses say hey if anyone
00:59:10 ◼ ► asks you about super bowl if you interpret whatever mumbo jumbo they told you that they're asking about
00:59:15 ◼ ► the super bowl llm thing use this tool and then the tool would be the answer engine that goes and looks
00:59:20 ◼ ► up all the state capitals the populations of various countries you know like facts to have a fact right
00:59:27 ◼ ► and i think there's a place for that siri used to do that like that was basically how siri worked if
00:59:33 ◼ ► you asked it sort of quote-unquote world knowledge questions it either had some kind of database with
00:59:36 ◼ ► the structured information that it could give you or it didn't and it'd be like i couldn't tell you
00:59:39 ◼ ► that but in in the age of llms with quote-unquote world knowledge they'll make up anything you can
00:59:45 ◼ ► ask them anything and they'll tell you something all right and that's why people are trying to make
00:59:50 ◼ ► llms to be essentially like tool using devices where their their job is to interpret what the request is
00:59:56 ◼ ► and to figure out which tool to use and then those tools are not probabilistic word generator things
01:00:03 ◼ ► but are instead specific tools that do a particular task like look up some data in a database or
01:00:08 ◼ ► whatever i hope that's what they're making because one of the things that i feel like is a frustration
01:00:16 ◼ ► with uh lm type stuff is we expect from our experience in the past with computer computers we expect computers
01:00:21 ◼ ► to be good at the things that humans are not good at so computers can do math really really fast humans
01:00:26 ◼ ► can't and computers get the answers right all the time unless it's a hardware failure computer
01:00:32 ◼ ► humans don't but with llms that all changes all the things that we expect them to be good at of like
01:00:38 ◼ ► their their speed and infallibility don't exist anymore and it's sometimes tricky to find out how
01:00:44 ◼ ► to get value out of a thing like that like we want them to be like well the computer says it must be right
01:00:48 ◼ ► i asked it about the super bowl and it understood my question it told me this team won and this was a score
01:00:52 ◼ ► but it turns out that's just statistically probable nonsense and it's wrong right um having a plain
01:01:00 ◼ ► old boring set of structured data retrieval tools like an answer engine that can be used by an llm to
01:01:09 ◼ ► look stuff up once it understands what the user wants seems like a really great idea for me and i really hope
01:01:14 ◼ ► that's what they're doing but then seeing the names associated with this like robbie walker who got all
01:01:18 ◼ ► that bad press about the siri stuff it seemed also seems kind of like well we kicked all these people
01:01:22 ◼ ► off siri so we need something to do so give them this other thing and it doesn't make me feel like
01:01:27 ◼ ► it is a high priority project i mean we'll see what happens with all their ai efforts and projects like
01:01:32 ◼ ► it's obviously finally in a state of significant flux that's good we know that that's where we wanted
01:01:37 ◼ ► them to be um because they you know we i think we we can agree they were they were heading in some
01:01:43 ◼ ► bad directions before or or simply not heading nowhere right yeah exactly um there's going to be
01:01:49 ◼ ► a lot of you know fits and starts and big attempts small attempts i think this is great you know at least
01:01:55 ◼ ► they are trying things now that seem like they are both you know achievable and important to their
01:02:04 ◼ ► customers um you know like if they were going to have some big moonshoot projects i'd rather than try
01:02:10 ◼ ► to build a world knowledge ai than a car or a vr headset honestly um so i i think this is good
01:02:17 ◼ ► news like even if it never becomes anything or even if they try it and it sucks i'd rather they try this
01:02:22 ◼ ► kind of stuff than not i can't tell if you're saying moonshoot as a as a humorous reference to your
01:02:28 ◼ ► past saying of that word or you just forgotten that's i forgot all right now i remember yeah i like
01:02:36 ◼ ► here's the thing do you remember when they whatever they announced there might have been a wwc at the
01:02:40 ◼ ► the apple intelligence one they're like and we've fed it siri knowledge about our products and now you
01:02:44 ◼ ► can ask about our products and people tried it and it would just tell you to go to settings that don't
01:02:48 ◼ ► exist in settings and stuff like that like the value of features like that essentially goes to zero if you
01:02:53 ◼ ► can't rely on it giving you answers and it's kind of embarrassing for like apple's own products that
01:02:59 ◼ ► like if they're advertising the fact that you can ask your phone how to like you know how do i turn on
01:03:02 ◼ ► dark mode and it tells you go to settings go here go this like if it's wrong you're like you're the
01:03:07 ◼ ► phone the one thing you should know about is where the stuff is in you it seems it's and once you get
01:03:12 ◼ ► a wrong answer once or twice from that you're going to stop asking it because it seems like it's just
01:03:16 ◼ ► wasting your time this is where an answer engine can come in handy i feel like you could structure that
01:03:22 ◼ ► data in some way that it would always give you an answer that is relevant to whatever operating system
01:03:28 ◼ ► your phone is running whatever you know like it should it should know this like this is a knowable
01:03:32 ◼ ► tractable thing it's just so much more work to do it that way than to just feed all the knowledge
01:03:36 ◼ ► based articles and documentation to an lm and then cross your fingers which is what everyone wants to
01:03:40 ◼ ► do they're just like we'll just throw all the stuff at it and and then put it in front of customers and
01:03:44 ◼ ► it it's right most of the time so that's good right yeah so i've my fingers are really crossed about
01:03:50 ◼ ► this knowledge engine thing because i want this to be a deterministic tool that is used by
01:03:54 ◼ ► the lms and i don't want it to be we just fed a bunch of documentation to a different lm
01:04:01 ◼ ► so it can give you a different set of maybe right answers yeah i mean i agree with you that i think
01:04:07 ◼ ► this is definitely something that they should be exploring i also agree that if if the reporting
01:04:14 ◼ ► about robbie walker in particular and gian andrea actually are is anywhere near true and they are
01:04:19 ◼ ► not as great as maybe they should be to be put in these positions i don't know that scares me a
01:04:26 ◼ ► little bit and it's certainly like a well we don't want to fire you but just go over here and play for
01:04:30 ◼ ► a little while like a toddler right like distract distract it doesn't seem like it's the a team
01:04:35 ◼ ► right exactly which i mean may and maybe we're darn wrong maybe robbie walker and john g and andrea
01:04:41 ◼ ► were completely uh you know riddled well i mean all we know is that they didn't produce results we
01:04:46 ◼ ► don't know why but like we do know that they had a job and they didn't do it exactly but we'll see i
01:04:55 ◼ ► mean i i i'm i'm really hopeful that this will turn out to be something fruitful i don't even really care
01:05:01 ◼ ► if it's an llm or not as long as it works but yeah we'll see we are sponsored this episode by
01:05:08 ◼ ► delete me delete me makes it easy quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when
01:05:13 ◼ ► surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable so there's a whole business
01:05:18 ◼ ► out there of data brokers data brokers basically profit off your data your data is valuable it's a
01:05:24 ◼ ► commodity people buy and sell it and this can lead to a bunch of problems for you and it's just kind
01:05:28 ◼ ► of annoying and gross and you know it's super easy to just type in anybody's name into a search engine
01:05:32 ◼ ► and have all these services pop up that will offer usually for some kind of money their home address
01:05:38 ◼ ► your social security number your family members names your phone numbers like all this stuff it's really
01:05:43 ◼ ► gross so what delete me does this goes and opts you out and files takedowns to hundreds of data
01:05:51 ◼ ► brokers and whenever they can find new ones they add them to the list and they opt you out of those too
01:05:55 ◼ ► this is an ongoing service so you it's a you know an ongoing subscription you pay them and they keep
01:06:01 ◼ ► your data out of all of these hundreds of data broker websites whenever there's a new one again
01:06:06 ◼ ► they'll take it down for you so you don't have to go around and even know about these because i mean who
01:06:10 ◼ ► can who can do that really so it's a really great valuable service you know i went looking for one of
01:06:14 ◼ ► these a few years ago before they were a sponsor and i ended up choosing delete me like because it's just
01:06:18 ◼ ► i did the research and they're like oh they seem pretty good and they have been so i can recommend it
01:06:24 ◼ ► um so if you want to take control of your data and keep your private life private sign up for
01:06:29 ◼ ► delete me now at a special discount for our listeners get 20 of your delete me plan when you
01:06:34 ◼ ► go to join delete me.com slash atp and use promo code atp at checkout the only way to get 20 off is
01:06:40 ◼ ► to go to join delete me.com slash atp and enter code atp at checkout that's join delete me.com slash
01:06:51 ◼ ► all right let's do some ask atp where steve writes i have a desktop laptop macbook air it has an
01:06:59 ◼ ► external ssd permanently attached which i use for time machine backups whenever the macbook wakes from
01:07:04 ◼ ► sleep it pings a notification disc not ejected properly eject m1 time machine before disconnecting
01:07:08 ◼ ► it or turning it off can i stop this from happening without having to dismount and remount the drive
01:07:13 ◼ ► every time i walk away from the computer it's annoying and worrying that i might be corrupting
01:07:17 ◼ ► my backups before john starts fussing about desktop laptops we know that desktops would solve this
01:07:24 ◼ ► problem but you can't move a desktop john that's that's the other i don't know if desktops would
01:07:28 ◼ ► solve this problem because the problem is like going to sleep and waking from sleep desktops also go to
01:07:34 ◼ ► sleep and wake from sleep that's fair all right see i was trying to get ahead of all the complaining
01:07:38 ◼ ► and moaning about laptops but it turns out you're not complaining what i'm saying is you're worried you
01:07:42 ◼ ► might be corrupting your backups yeah you should be worried if it says disk not ejected properly
01:07:48 ◼ ► that's not an annoyance that you should live with that's an indication that something is going wrong
01:07:52 ◼ ► and we've talked about this in past episodes what's going wrong was it whatever chipset is running the
01:07:57 ◼ ► interface on your external drive mechanism is it some driver issue with your version of whatever it is
01:08:03 ◼ ► it's a problem and you should do something about it because you can't allow this to stand anyway one of
01:08:08 ◼ ► the workarounds believe it or not there is an app for this uh from uh uh st claire software what else
01:08:15 ◼ ► do they make like a keyboard maestro and a bunch of other stuff anyway um it's called jettison the
01:08:20 ◼ ► tagline is manually take control of your external disks directly from your menu bar automatically eject
01:08:24 ◼ ► disks before your mac sleeps or after your display powers off with jettison just close your macbook unplug
01:08:30 ◼ ► and go this is working around this apparently uh issue that is common with external disks with mac
01:08:36 ◼ ► mac os by saying install this software and like you don't have to remember to manually unmount your
01:08:41 ◼ ► things when you put your thing to sleep we will automatically unmount them before your mac goes to
01:08:46 ◼ ► sleep and i maybe remount them or whatever but like what you're trying this is this is a not hacky but
01:08:52 ◼ ► this is an unfortunate workaround for a disk that keeps remounting itself really your disk should not
01:08:58 ◼ ► be unmounting itself when your mac goes to sleep as someone who has had many many external drives
01:09:03 ◼ ► connected to many many macs you should be able to put it to sleep and wake it up and you should receive
01:09:08 ◼ ► no messages about volumes unmounting you shouldn't it's not happened but you know we don't live in a
01:09:13 ◼ ► perfect world so check out jettison all right jeff writes i started working with xcode in january and
01:09:21 ◼ ► something has been bothering me specifically as it pertains to the amount of space that xcode uses on your
01:09:25 ◼ ► hard drive i have an m4 mac mini with 24 gigs of memory and a 512 gig ssd in the last couple of weeks
01:09:31 ◼ ► i've been using xcode a lot and i noticed that my storage available space dropped from close to 400
01:09:35 ◼ ► gigs 200 200 to under 240 gigs over that time i figured it had to be xcode because in system
01:09:41 ◼ ► settings developer was taking up around 50 gigs so i tried putting xcode onto an external ssd i already
01:09:46 ◼ ► stored my projects there it seemed to make no difference so i moved it back to my internal hard
01:09:50 ◼ ► drive i was about to pull the trigger on a two thousand dollar mac mini with 48 gigs of memory
01:09:53 ◼ ► and two terabytes of storage when this morning i checked my storage and 100 gigs had suddenly
01:09:57 ◼ ► rematerialized can you explain this or give me some insight on how the storage relating
01:10:01 ◼ ► to xcode works john tell me about file systems if you please yeah so free space in mac os is tricky
01:10:10 ◼ ► because of the fancy features of the apple file system it's just it's just a fact of life you can't
01:10:17 ◼ ► have these fancy features without some confusion about free space there is no obvious thing that apple
01:10:23 ◼ ► should do that would make it clear to everybody all the time that just isn't so that's that's an
01:10:27 ◼ ► unfortunate complexity of modern computing life the workaround is just by so much storage you never need
01:10:33 ◼ ► to worry about it but that's very expensive especially in apple world so one of the things
01:10:38 ◼ ► that could be making your hogging your space and then having your space suddenly reappear
01:10:42 ◼ ► are local time machine backups if you are running time machine and it's not clear if jeff is but if
01:10:47 ◼ ► you're running time machine time machine does this thing where it makes local snapshots where it takes
01:10:52 ◼ ► a point in time snapshot of your entire volume uh periodically sometimes several of them and those
01:10:59 ◼ ► snapshots keep data alive even if it's subsequently deleted because as long as data is referenced by any
01:11:05 ◼ ► existing snapshots it can't be actually freed up so if you take a snapshot or time machine takes a
01:11:13 ◼ ► snapshot behind the scenes without you knowing and again this has nothing to do with like an
01:11:17 ◼ ► external time machine disk i'm saying if you're running time machine and like you unplug the time
01:11:22 ◼ ► machine disk doesn't matter these are local snapshots on the volume that is going to be backed up it makes
01:11:27 ◼ ► these snapshots because that's what it can back up from it takes a snapshot and then you delete 200 gigs
01:11:31 ◼ ► worth of stuff you're not getting that space back until the snapshot that references those 200 gigs
01:11:36 ◼ ► also goes away time machine will delete these local snapshots periodically it doesn't make them
01:11:42 ◼ ► forever so they sort of go off the end i don't know how many it keeps i don't know how long it keeps the
01:11:45 ◼ ► policy always changes or whatever but like within a few days or hours or whatever the snapshot that
01:11:50 ◼ ► referenced those 200 gigs of files that you deleted that snapshot will be deleted or discarded and now
01:11:55 ◼ ► nothing references that 200 gigs worth of data and then you get it back as free space you can see the
01:12:00 ◼ ► complexity of the finder trying to show what your free space is does it when you delete those 200 gigs
01:12:04 ◼ ► don't you want to see the number go up by 200 gigs but what if it didn't really delete it what if it's
01:12:08 ◼ ► still referenced in a snapshot should it lie to you and tell you that's free space sometimes it does
01:12:13 ◼ ► because in theory there's this system in mac os that considers that space quote-unquote purgeable so
01:12:19 ◼ ► if it needs space and it doesn't have enough it can say what can i purge and one of the things that can
01:12:23 ◼ ► purge is your time machine snapshot so it might show you that you have that 200 gigs free knowing that if
01:12:28 ◼ ► any app tries to use that space it's a the mac os would be like oh actually that space isn't free but
01:12:34 ◼ ► i can make it free just hang on a second i'll just delete the snapshot and that's time consuming it's
01:12:37 ◼ ► tricky and the big complaint about mac os is it doesn't purge the purgeable space fast enough or
01:12:43 ◼ ► in a timely enough manner so even though there's supposedly space available it doesn't become
01:12:46 ◼ ► available fast enough anyway uh we'll put a link and a couple links in the show notes explaining what
01:12:51 ◼ ► time machine local snapshots are and how you can view them used to be able to used to have to use a
01:12:55 ◼ ► command line tool to do this but now plain old disk utility will show you your time machine
01:13:00 ◼ ► snapshots and will let your local time machine snapshots and will let you delete them with a
01:13:05 ◼ ► little minus button in disk utility so no longer do you have to do command line hacking i have found
01:13:11 ◼ ► in my experience i often have to manually delete local time machine snapshots to free up space in a timely
01:13:19 ◼ ► manner because mac os is just too slow and too reticent to purge that purgeable space so that's one thing
01:13:26 ◼ ► the other thing is xcode taking up space xcode does take up tons of space in places that people
01:13:32 ◼ ► might not uh realize so much so that there is a pretty good app dedicated to this called dev cleaner
01:13:38 ◼ ► that i've been running for a long time do you guys run dev cleaner yes i do no there you go okay so you
01:13:43 ◼ ► found an app for you so it is it runs periodically even if you forget to run it it will it'll periodically
01:13:49 ◼ ► pop up a notification and say hey you haven't run this in a while you should probably run it now
01:13:52 ◼ ► and it shows you all the space take being taken up for xcode stuff that you can safely delete
01:13:57 ◼ ► now safely is you know one of the things that will show you is how much space is being taken up with
01:14:02 ◼ ► archive builds of your app you probably don't want to delete those at least i don't maybe i'm just
01:14:07 ◼ ► hoarding them or they're good for debugging or whatever but like it will show you those so don't
01:14:12 ◼ ► it will show you things like uh sdks that you've downloaded that you're not using anymore oh i'm
01:14:17 ◼ ► not doing ipad development anymore and in fact there's two different ipad sdks downloaded i can
01:14:21 ◼ ► delete those you can delete those because if you ever need them again xcode will re-download them for
01:14:26 ◼ ► you or you can re-download them from xcode um it'll show you locally cached documentation it will show
01:14:32 ◼ ► you everyone's favorite derived data it will show you all sorts of other stuff it will show you and the
01:14:38 ◼ ► sizes and you can decide which one of these things do you want to delete and i always forget about it
01:14:42 ◼ ► until that notification appears and says hey you haven't run devcleaning around you want to run it
01:14:45 ◼ ► and that will find some stuff that you can delete now i don't think it explains jeff's situation where
01:14:50 ◼ ► hundreds of gigs are disappearing it shouldn't be that big but it does let you get a handle on
01:14:56 ◼ ► xcode and the space that it's using uh i would also check if you have like multiple versions of xcode or
01:15:04 ◼ ► like if you have the .zip file sitting in your download folder and you know this gets into just
01:15:12 ◼ ► find what's using space on your disk but for xcode in particular there's an app for that it's called
01:15:16 ◼ ► devcleaner uh check it out yeah and um if you are on the xcode beta train uh or just if you use xcode
01:15:23 ◼ ► for long enough to have multiple versions of xcode or have you know gone through multiple versions of
01:15:29 ◼ ► ios or whatever the platforms are when xcode like downloads the ios uh runtime files or watch os runtime
01:15:37 ◼ ► files or all those you know when downloading those components after you install the actual app it doesn't
01:15:43 ◼ ► delete the old ones so if you're like on the beta train like this summer you know we're on the beta
01:15:47 ◼ ► train we're on beta 5 every time you download the new beta it downloads the like the ios support files
01:15:54 ◼ ► for that version of the beta which are like seven gigs when you get the new beta those old files stick
01:16:00 ◼ ► around they're no longer used if you replace you know beta 4 of xcode with beta 5 of xcode or whatever
01:16:05 ◼ ► but those are those stick around recently those have moved to a system folder that tools like devcleaner
01:16:13 ◼ ► can't clean but xcode itself if you go into the xcode settings there's a tab called components
01:16:19 ◼ ► and if you scroll into the bottom it will show you all the old versions of those components of basically
01:16:26 ◼ ► like you know old ios builds and stuff that you probably can delete support for because you probably
01:16:30 ◼ ► don't need them anymore because the version of xcode you're running you usually can't even use them if you
01:16:35 ◼ ► want to or if it's for you know some ancient version of xcode do you really need separate support
01:16:39 ◼ ► files for ios 18.4 and 18.1 and 18.0 like probably not and you can always redownload that kind of stuff
01:16:46 ◼ ► if you need it um so go into the xcode components menu and you'll be able to delete a lot of stuff
01:16:51 ◼ ► from there and then secondly if you are running you know the ios simulator say on your mac to test out
01:16:58 ◼ ► things on ios i run into this problem a lot because my app that i'm testing is overcast and it downloads
01:17:04 ◼ ► downloads files downloads podcasts and so if i like launch a new simulator and i log into an existing
01:17:11 ◼ ► test account that already has some podcasts subscribed it's going to start downloading those
01:17:15 ◼ ► files off the internet to my mac and it's going to keep those in like a file container for that instance
01:17:21 ◼ ► of that simulator so it could be downloading like a gig or two of mp3s if it's like a big enough account
01:17:27 ◼ ► and those are just sitting in some container folder somewhere and i'm you know i'm testing with them
01:17:31 ◼ ► and everything but then later on if a new version of xcode or ios comes out and i start building
01:17:37 ◼ ► my simulator against that it is a new like copy of the simulator with its own container and the old one
01:17:45 ◼ ► just gets abandoned and so buried deep inside your usually your library folder somewhere there's like
01:17:51 ◼ ► device support um or simulator folders that contain all of the data that has been downloaded by your app
01:17:58 ◼ ► running in the simulator in various times and so and if you aren't actively going cleaning those out
01:18:03 ◼ ► those will add up too so so you do have to be fairly diligent with xcode development for disk space both
01:18:11 ◼ ► xcode itself in the component menu and in if you're running simulators like what's going on in those
01:18:17 ◼ ► simulators and are you then abandoning them with gigs of data just sitting there forever
01:18:20 ◼ ► um so there's there's a lot of potential to reclaim disk space by kind of watching xcode like a hawk and
01:18:27 ◼ ► almost none of it has to do with as jeff said like moving the xcode app itself to an external disk because
01:18:33 ◼ ► that won't change anything it's still going to be storing all these other folders on your boot drive
01:18:37 ◼ ► whatever that is and that being said i would suggest if you have the ability no computer from apple that you
01:18:46 ◼ ► intend to use xcode with should have less than a terabyte of ssd and even the terabyte you do have
01:18:52 ◼ ► to babysit like that's the terabyte is what i use from my travel laptop and the the reason i know all
01:18:57 ◼ ► this stuff about where all these folders are right now is because like two days ago it was down to like
01:19:01 ◼ ► 30 gigs free i'm like what out of a terabyte what happened and sure enough i had like 200 gigs of xcode
01:19:08 ◼ ► waste going on across the computer it was it was quite quite something to find um but but even even a
01:19:14 ◼ ► terabyte like if i had the 512 i wouldn't fit like that would that that would not be enough
01:19:19 ◼ ► for all the stuff that i do even for a travel laptop because i'm also doing xcode terabyte if you can
01:19:25 ◼ ► should be your minimum um and i think next time i buy one i might even go two terabytes just because
01:19:31 ◼ ► it's like these things are only growing over time especially as we're getting and getting into like
01:19:35 ◼ ► llms and downloading models and stuff like that like there's it's only going to keep getting bigger over
01:19:39 ◼ ► time it's also worth noting that uh the dev cleaner thing is apparently open source on github as well
01:19:45 ◼ ► so it's on the mac app store but you can also see the source code and try to build it yourself or
01:19:49 ◼ ► whatever so that's nice uh and then i've seen a bunch of stories recently about people who are like
01:19:55 ◼ ► um my mac was fine had plenty of free space and then overnight i lost 500 gigs and it turns out to be
01:20:01 ◼ ► like a spotlight importer uh that just got it caught in a loop and was just making tons of little files
01:20:08 ◼ ► or some driver that kept crashing and every time it crashed it made like a four kilobyte crash log and
01:20:12 ◼ ► it was crashing hundreds of times a second and there was a directory with six literally six million files
01:20:16 ◼ ► in it um stuff like that can happen uh with first party and third party software how do you find that
01:20:24 ◼ ► how do you find what's happening how did these people find what the problem is uh we'll put a link in the
01:20:29 ◼ ► notes to the app that i use which is uh grand perspective what was the what was the other app
01:20:33 ◼ ► before grand perspective i always there was omni disk sweeper i always was a big fan of space gremlin
01:20:38 ◼ ► and daisy disk is one that everyone else likes yeah i like this but grand perspective is a clone of an
01:20:44 ◼ ► app that was exactly like grand perspective that had a different name anyway oh yes i know what you're
01:20:49 ◼ ► thinking about i can't remember the damn name of it yeah uh grand perspective gives you a bunch of
01:20:53 ◼ ► visual squares each square the area of each or rectangle each the area of each rectangle represents the
01:20:58 ◼ ► number of bytes uh the and it's i forget if it's free or cheap but anyway it's well worth the money
01:21:04 ◼ ► because you you can see the big boxes like it takes a long time to do a scan but just look at look for
01:21:10 ◼ ► where the big rectangle is or look for where the giant fleets of tiny rectangles are and you'll find
01:21:13 ◼ ► you'll very cool if there's a directory with six million files in it after you run grand perspective
01:21:17 ◼ ► and let it run over like 48 hours or however long it takes to do it you'll you'll see the six million
01:21:22 ◼ ► files that you didn't expect to be there because they will dwarf everything else the only advice i will give
01:21:27 ◼ ► on grand perspective is in this modern age and in any kind of multi-user type environment if you have
01:21:33 ◼ ► more than one account on your mac keep in mind that it cannot see stuff happening in other people's
01:21:39 ◼ ► accounts when you run it on your account so you should go to that other account and run it there
01:21:43 ◼ ► as well to get a complete picture because you're not gonna because it can't like it can't read those
01:21:48 ◼ ► directories i don't think it like it runs as rude at least the mac app store one doesn't like run as
01:21:52 ◼ ► rude and have admin permissions but that's how you find those things i mean you can do it from the
01:21:56 ◼ ► command line there's a million different ways you can do it but if you're looking for a gooey app
01:21:59 ◼ ► run this thing let it run it will take a long time and it will show you a graphical representation
01:22:03 ◼ ► that you can then hover your mouse cursor over all these little rectangles and show the little info
01:22:07 ◼ ► pane it'll tell you exactly what file you're hovering over or what directory and then you can reveal
01:22:12 ◼ ► that on the finder and you'll find where the problem is fixing the problem might be tricky especially
01:22:16 ◼ ► if it's a spotlight importer or something but that's part of the detective work that's required so
01:22:21 ◼ ► yeah i recommend you do the same marco if you if you're pushing up against limits of a one
01:22:25 ◼ ► terabyte thing and you only found 200 gigs of xcode waste to delete so maybe there's something
01:22:29 ◼ ► else going wrong yeah i mean and you know also part of it is like you know i have there's 200 gigs of
01:22:35 ◼ ► photos that are that were downloaded not even with keep originals if you're gonna put you try to put
01:22:40 ◼ ► your photo library on that laptop too yeah yeah no yeah like and not even with keep originals just like
01:22:44 ◼ ► you know with the automatic storage thing yeah that's that's the problem with it oh optimized storage
01:22:48 ◼ ► sure we'll use every ounce of free space you have and never purge it when you want space back is that
01:22:52 ◼ ► would you want it yeah remember back in the day i used to keep my icloud photo library file
01:22:58 ◼ ► in a disk image that had a quota set on it i haven't done that in a long time i wonder if that
01:23:03 ◼ ► still would work i mean i'm surprised it ever worked but i i understand the motivation but just like there
01:23:09 ◼ ► should be a setting in photos that says optimize storage underneath that it should say and never use
01:23:13 ◼ ► more than x amount and it can put a minimum on it like well you have to let me use at least this much
01:23:17 ◼ ► because you have this many photos or whatever but it doesn't and so it just does whatever it feels
01:23:20 ◼ ► like it's doing by the way the chat room has uh told us all that the uh the grand perspective
01:23:24 ◼ ► predecessor was called disk inventory x or 10 ah yes all right uh and then finally tonight alan
01:23:31 ◼ ► bale ward writes how do you recommend dealing with spam for those of us running our own mail server
01:23:35 ◼ ► well i can stop here don't run your own mail server it's it's that simple like yeah i'm not trying
01:23:41 ◼ ► to be a turd but like i i am happy to read the rest of this but truly i get the motivation for
01:23:46 ◼ ► not wanting to do gmail or not wanting to do fast mail even though i cannot overstate how good my
01:23:50 ◼ ► experience with fast mail has been i get the motivation i am super duper in into self-host self-hosting
01:23:57 ◼ ► these days i get it but this is a bad idea it's just not a good idea to run your own mail server i i cannot
01:24:05 ◼ ► stress enough it's not a good plan i'm gonna read this because i'm not trying to be cruel to alan
01:24:09 ◼ ► but i i that is truly my answer is don't run your own mail server alan writes uh for those of us
01:24:15 ◼ ► running our own mail server or not using gmail that has a good spam filter there doesn't seem to be
01:24:20 ◼ ► any spam filtering on ios or ipad os the best solution i have is running spam sieve on my mac
01:24:25 ◼ ► and leaving mail open all the time is there a better way other than switching mail providers
01:24:29 ◼ ► no if it matters i'm using open srs for my few domains used by myself and a few friends and family
01:24:34 ◼ ► which costs 50 cents per mailbox per month a lot better than the 18 canadian per user per month
01:24:39 ◼ ► from g suite i think this question isn't just saying if you run your own mail server which i
01:24:43 ◼ ► agree you should not do it because it's just asking it's a nightmare which is a shame by the way
01:24:48 ◼ ► it should be possible to do it but the the current situation the current spam environment makes it
01:24:53 ◼ ► pretty much untenable for you to do that but even if you're not running your own mail server but
01:24:57 ◼ ► you're simply not using a service that has its own decent spam filtering built in like gmail tries
01:25:02 ◼ ► to have um for example apple's mail services they're doing something related to spam that
01:25:09 ◼ ► you have see if this sounds familiar no visibility into and no control over one of the reasons i've
01:25:15 ◼ ► never used my apple email account as my main email account is because i have learned so many hard
01:25:20 ◼ ► lessons about uh their spam filtering a that's not good at filtering spam and b it has stopped me from
01:25:26 ◼ ► receiving legitimate messages many times with no explanation and no recourse so i don't like apple's
01:25:31 ◼ ► email service for that reason but a lot of people use it and find it fine anyway um spam civ i used
01:25:37 ◼ ► for years but of course alan has identified the problem spam civ is a thing that runs on your mac
01:25:42 ◼ ► for it to do its work it needs to be running and it only works on the mac that it's running on that was
01:25:47 ◼ ► good for the days of pop before we had even imap where all the email was just downloaded onto each
01:25:52 ◼ ► individual mac that's not the world we live in although spam civ is really good uh and it's
01:25:57 ◼ ► tunable and configurable and if you are in a situation where and and if you're using with imap it will be
01:26:01 ◼ ► reflected back up on the server obviously because when it files things in spam it's following them in
01:26:05 ◼ ► an imap spam folder so spam civ is not just for pop so i do actually recommend that but if you're not
01:26:10 ◼ ► running your mac then spam sim isn't doing its work and if you don't have an always on mac i see the
01:26:14 ◼ ► problem there uh mail route mail route whatever former sponsor of the show ages and ages ago
01:26:25 ◼ ► mail delivered to mail route and then they filter spam and then forward it on to where it was really
01:26:29 ◼ ► supposed to go i like that because it runs on a server that i don't have to deal with someplace else
01:26:34 ◼ ► it's basically transparent it doesn't matter what mail client user whatever because as far as your
01:26:38 ◼ ► client is concerned when the mail arrives it's already been filtered and i think they do a pretty
01:26:42 ◼ ► good job i use that for a bunch of my like non gmail account things and it blocks a lot of spam
01:26:48 ◼ ► um it's and i never need to do anything with it now does it block all the spam no but i it has
01:26:54 ◼ ► rarely caught a message that i wanted to get through and it does send digest emails saying
01:26:59 ◼ ► here's some messages that were questionable about and you can click on individual ones and say no let
01:27:04 ◼ ► that one through i don't know if it learns from me doing that but every once in a while i have to say
01:27:07 ◼ ► no let that one through anyway mail route uh that's another option i'm sure there are similar services
01:27:13 ◼ ► like that that's what i would look into instead you know if you if you don't have something that's
01:27:18 ◼ ► running all the time where you can run spam civ on a mac or whatever look for a server-side solution
01:27:22 ◼ ► that runs on a server that you do not run like again you can just go to fast mail as casey was
01:27:27 ◼ ► suggesting which should do presumably all this for you but if you want to assemble your mail life
01:27:33 ◼ ► experience from pieces and like and why am i using mail route why don't i use it well because i have
01:27:36 ◼ ► a bunch of email addresses for domains that aren't real i didn't want to use google domains or anything
01:27:41 ◼ ► like that i just wanted to be freestanding and eventually they started getting enough email that
01:27:45 ◼ ► spam became an issue and i was looking for a solution to that so i plugged in mail route and it's so far
01:27:49 ◼ ► been working for me but i'm sure there are other alternatives yeah i would say i use mail route for a
01:27:58 ◼ ► overall however i did have to go in and like occasionally check their their kind of like
01:28:04 ◼ ► maybe quarantine to say like because there it would occasionally catch messages that i did want
01:28:09 ◼ ► and fled them as spam so i did have to kind of babysit it a little bit but it did do a very good job
01:28:15 ◼ ► of filtering out spam in the meantime um but overall casey's casey is the most right among us don't do this
01:28:20 ◼ ► don't run your email server in this day and age there's there's lots of reasons that it's it's
01:28:25 ◼ ► becoming increasingly difficult to do that in a way that is in a way that both you can you know
01:28:31 ◼ ► reliably deliver mail to everybody and that you can reliably filter out spam and it's like the cloud
01:28:37 ◼ ► flare situation uh yeah because of because it costs so little to spend send email spam became prevalent
01:28:43 ◼ ► and then spam eventually overwhelmed all the legitimate mail and that allowed a few powerful mail providers
01:28:49 ◼ ► to become so big that then they could do deals amongst themselves about sort of mail exchange and
01:28:53 ◼ ► who they'll trust and the rules that they're set and now if you don't have a mail account on one of the
01:28:57 ◼ ► big mail providers it's very difficult to be independent so now those big mail providers have
01:29:02 ◼ ► an inordinate amount of control over the mail ecosystem so whatever they decide to do amongst
01:29:06 ◼ ► themselves uh you are subject to that you or if they just decide we're not going to accept any mail
01:29:12 ◼ ► unless it does x y and z you better do x y and z otherwise you can't deliver to millions and millions of people
01:29:16 ◼ ► and this is just another yeah i mean so there's two things one bad actors ruin ruin stuff for everybody
01:29:21 ◼ ► and the bad actors in the cloud full case would be the ai crawlers that are crawling too aggressively so
01:29:25 ◼ ► they they make an environment where uh we can't have nice things right you know someone's in there just
01:29:30 ◼ ► making a mess and stomping around and breaking everything and so you need someone to try to create
01:29:36 ◼ ► order and that creates these big powerful companies which now have too much power so yeah i'm sure i don't
01:29:41 ◼ ► know if this is tragedy of the commons or there's some there's some uh common cliche or parable or
01:29:45 ◼ ► lesson that repeats itself over and over again that i don't remember the name of that this is an example
01:29:49 ◼ ► of all right thank you very much for listening everybody thanks to our sponsors this week squarespace and
01:30:01 ◼ ► slash join one of the many perks of membership is you get to hear more of us every week in our atp
01:30:08 ◼ ► overtime our weekly bonus topic this week's overtime we're talking about post-quantum cryptography
01:30:14 ◼ ► which is exactly as cool as it sounds post-quantum cryptography support in the 26 os's in the
01:30:22 ◼ ► networking stack we're talking about that you can hear us by joining atp.fm slash join thank you
01:30:27 ◼ ► everybody we'll talk to you next week now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin
01:30:48 ◼ ► accidental it was accidental it was accidental and you can find the show notes at atp.fm
01:30:57 ◼ ► and if you're into mastodon you can follow them at c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s so that's k-c-liss
01:31:40 ◼ ► well we'll do our best yeah there's no promises here i was i think once you say what you have to
01:31:45 ◼ ► say uh once you give us the uh the situation here i want i want us all to do our counts
01:31:50 ◼ ► okay uh i got home from the beach on sunday and we went out to dinner with some friends of ours
01:31:58 ◼ ► and i forget what was i think it was like a late breaking dinner in the sense that we hadn't
01:32:04 ◼ ► really really planned on going and then all of a sudden it was like all right let's get in the car
01:32:07 ◼ ► and go and i was in my workout clothes which is a atp uh athletic shirt you know the it's kind of
01:32:15 ◼ ► under armor style athletic shirt that i love and uh a pair of exercise shorts from a former sponsor
01:32:21 ◼ ► which i adore i really truly do uh that being said the zipper on these shorts has given up the
01:32:28 ◼ ► ghost on both sides so uh i don't generally go out and like do social things in this outfit uh in no
01:32:36 ◼ ► small part because i often stink but here we are uh but occasionally exceptions have have to be made
01:32:42 ◼ ► and this is one of those exceptions and so we went to dinner and then i was getting back into aaron's car
01:32:47 ◼ ► in the passenger seat uh as i was leaving dinner and aaron said oh i just heard something fall was
01:32:53 ◼ ► that your phone to which i said oh no yes it was and sure enough i shattered the back of my phone
01:32:58 ◼ ► this is i believe the third phone i've done this to i had a very long stretch of never having done this
01:33:05 ◼ ► and then we had the incident where i jumped up to wash her former volvo while i had the phone in a
01:33:11 ◼ ► back pocket of regular shorts terrible decision 100 my fault uh and it shattered on the ground
01:33:17 ◼ ► thereafter uh and then i'm pretty sure i broke another one although i don't recall how now and
01:33:21 ◼ ► then i think this is my third um and to be clear um what is your case situation uh i am caseless
01:33:29 ◼ ► caseless and i have dropped this phone several times not on concrete like i did this time i don't know if
01:33:34 ◼ ► you want to offer this uh this additional information no i mean i know full well the risk i'm taking
01:33:41 ◼ ► i know full well the risk i'm taking but so you think your count is three you have you have shattered
01:33:45 ◼ ► three phones i think that's right and that one watch that also happened when washing aaron's car
01:33:51 ◼ ► we're not talking about watches this is just phones it's not actually how many you've had an iphone
01:33:56 ◼ ► since what the first one the 3g 3gs was my first that was the third one yeah so that's a pretty good
01:34:02 ◼ ► run for only three shattered phones although it is concerning that all three of them are fairly
01:34:11 ◼ ► something apparently i don't know but i mean this was ultimately my fault it's still my fault
01:34:16 ◼ ► but i was put i put myself in a position that i'm not usually in i'm in a pair of shorts that i know is
01:34:21 ◼ ► not the best phone containment mechanism and i was and i left the house which isn't something i don't
01:34:25 ◼ ► typically do in these shorts and so it's my fault but mistakes been made well so you know what actually
01:34:30 ◼ ► happened though was the phone in your pocket and the act of getting into the car squirted it out
01:34:34 ◼ ► that's right okay uh what's your what's your count marco my count of what uh how many phones have you
01:34:41 ◼ ► shattered zero oh i'm zero as well not once either of you wow i'm impressed genuinely i'm going to add
01:34:48 ◼ ► ipod touches because although i didn't get my first iphone to the iphone 7 i had the ipod touch since the
01:34:53 ◼ ► very first one so i have always had phone shaped things with screens on them although granted it probably
01:34:59 ◼ ► didn't take the ipod touch out of the house although i did but i had it in a pouch you know anyway i'm at
01:35:02 ◼ ► zero i'm trying to think i i don't think i have ever broken an electronic device i'm i i can't
01:35:09 ◼ ► remember anything off the top of my head like maybe i'm forgetting something but didn't you sit on it
01:35:13 ◼ ► someone sat on an ipad in your house someone did sit on an ipad in my house it was not me it was not
01:35:17 ◼ ► your butt huh no it was a different butt in the house that's fine i don't think i've ever broken
01:35:22 ◼ ► anything like that i i'm very impressed i like i said i had a very long run this is coincidentally i think
01:35:27 ◼ ► this is actually all steven hackett's fault because steven was breaking phones left and right for
01:35:32 ◼ ► years and i had never broken one now to my recollection steven hasn't broken a phone in
01:35:37 ◼ ► a long time did he start using a case maybe i don't know he's traded he started in case you stopped
01:35:42 ◼ ► exactly um so no that's right i just listened to connected and i believe he said he is caseless
01:35:48 ◼ ► in the winter if i recall correctly in case in the summer so that would have saved me if i had followed
01:35:55 ◼ ► his his strategy yeah and by the way speaking of the sounds of phones hitting the ground uh once your
01:36:00 ◼ ► children get a little older you were stopping you will start to become more familiar with that sound
01:36:04 ◼ ► i cannot count the number of times that i i can now recognize whose phone it is and where they're
01:36:10 ◼ ► dropping in the house that phones have been dropped down the stairs dropped onto the floor just like
01:36:15 ◼ ► onto onto the concrete like what you're getting into a car and falling out onto the ground has happened
01:36:21 ◼ ► so many times uh thus far i believe cases have saved it in all circumstances although there's a very
01:36:26 ◼ ► deep scratch on my daughter's phone screen she says she doesn't know where it came from but i'm not
01:36:30 ◼ ► surprised because it's dropped all the time like she's literally dropped it down the stair like boom
01:36:35 ◼ ► hits you know like from the top of the stairs to the bottom hitting all the stairs on the way down
01:36:40 ◼ ► and somehow to survive with just an apple clear case on it that phone is getting replaced with her
01:36:44 ◼ ► graduation gift slash college phone because she's used this phone for like five years i think four or
01:36:50 ◼ ► five years so she's getting a new phone to go off to college but it's been a it's been a trooper
01:36:54 ◼ ► um but yeah you'll probably be more familiar with that sound i'm saying is get cases for your kids
01:37:00 ◼ ► phones oh no absolutely absolutely yes and that will be a requirement um but i was doing the you
01:37:07 ◼ ► know apple care is my case which i do not advise i do not advise this this is insanity i mean it seemed
01:37:11 ◼ ► to work out for you because in the notes here like you had apple care on it right i did so uh i did an
01:37:19 ◼ ► express replacement because i've learned from my mistakes with regard to the air to the airpods
01:37:23 ◼ ► that's why you dropped it because you just wanted to use the knowledge you had gained from past episodes
01:37:27 ◼ ► before you forgot it shoot and now that i think about it i could i could have written off the 30
01:37:31 ◼ ► bucks whatever it is to repair it but uh what i did was that night which was sunday night i went on
01:37:36 ◼ ► apple's website and said i would like a um express replacement please you know i broke in the black
01:37:42 ◼ ► back glass blah blah blah that was easy peasy it arrived yesterday which is tuesday um i did the
01:37:50 ◼ ► transfer which took forever i will no matter what i do to transfer phones i always make the wrong choice
01:37:56 ◼ ► and always it always takes forever and i think some of that you just have a lot of data i was about to
01:38:00 ◼ ► say i think some of that is i just have a lot of data but some of that i think i'm just making maybe
01:38:04 ◼ ► not the best choice but either way it did transfer most everything worked just fine i didn't have any
01:38:08 ◼ ► major issues then i wiped the old phone put it in the box that the new phone came in dropped it off
01:38:14 ◼ ► this morning at fedex and uh current the way this works is there is a 1300 hold on my credit card
01:38:21 ◼ ► because if i don't return the old phone they they basically think that i've stolen one so they're
01:38:25 ◼ ► going to bill me for it which fair enough but sometime in the next you know 24 to 48 hours presumably they
01:38:30 ◼ ► will get the old phone they will look at it and laugh at my misfortune and then they will refund or i
01:38:35 ◼ ► guess release all but 30 dollars um in order to because i'm pretty sure the repair is 30 bucks it
01:38:41 ◼ ► used to be a lot more for the back class now it's 30 bucks and i gotta tell you apple express replacement
01:38:46 ◼ ► i wish i had listened to everyone when they've told us this numerous times over the years but it was
01:38:51 ◼ ► pretty great i i don't have any particular problem with my local apple store they're always very nice
01:38:56 ◼ ► there they're usually relatively quick despite serving a tremendous geographic area as i've whined about
01:39:02 ◼ ► many times on the show but it worked out pretty great so i i really do suggest if you are in a
01:39:07 ◼ ► position where you can do an express replacement for a product you should give it a shot worked out
01:39:12 ◼ ► well i think also regarding you dropping your phone and being lucky enough to shatter the back glass i
01:39:18 ◼ ► think a lot of people would just put a case in that phone and just keep using it i mean obviously if
01:39:22 ◼ ► they didn't have apple care but even sometimes even because i see so many people using phones with
01:39:26 ◼ ► shattered screens which i don't advise but shattered back it's like oh just put a case in that and
01:39:31 ◼ ► just forget it even exists right that's true but if i were to get a case i would want some sort of
01:39:36 ◼ ► leather case maybe not the exact one that you like but something similar and that's the cost of two
01:39:41 ◼ ► replacements of the back glass oh yeah no i'm not saying you so you you had apple care you should get
01:39:45 ◼ ► a new phone but i think a lot of people without apple care would have just chosen to continue using
01:39:49 ◼ ► that phone it's like i see a lot of beat up phones in the world oh absolutely if i had to pay the
01:39:52 ◼ ► like four hundred dollars or whatever it is in august when i'm likely to get a new phone let me check
01:39:58 ◼ ► my math next freaking month there's no chance i would have got this repaired but that being said
01:40:03 ◼ ► i do intend to pass this down to either family members or perhaps resell it or what have you
01:40:08 ◼ ► maybe trade it in um and so because of that i would like it to be in at least decent shape when that
01:40:13 ◼ ► happens and so uh yeah i paid my what presumably will be eventually build 30 bucks which kudos to apple
01:40:20 ◼ ► for bringing that down from i think it used to be a hundred bucks on for the back glass now it's 30 bucks i
01:40:25 ◼ ► believe maybe maybe i'm in for a rude awakening but i'm pretty sure that's right and uh and it was
01:40:30 ◼ ► basically zero time without a phone i guess it was the two hours that took the phone to transfer which
01:40:35 ◼ ► i feel like if i were to go to the apple store maybe they would replace the back glass but it wouldn't
01:40:39 ◼ ► surprise me if they just handed me a refurb there as well so one way or another uh again express
01:40:44 ◼ ► replacement gets two thumbs up if you already are paying for apple care and you got a fresh battery for
01:40:50 ◼ ► your kids or whoever gets that phone next also thought about that too very true i mean the really
01:40:54 ◼ ► remarkable thing is that you know like if you if you totaled your car and then within a few years you
01:41:00 ◼ ► totaled two other cars i would be surprised if your insurance company continued to want your business
01:41:07 ◼ ► in this case it is kind of remarkable that apple isn't dropping you from apple care you know i never
01:41:13 ◼ ► thought of it that way but you're not wrong the risk is spread over a very large risk pool of
01:41:17 ◼ ► billions of iphone users so i'm not sure they're gonna start narrowing it down to finding people who
01:41:22 ◼ ► are prone to breaking phones because we just all pay for all our apple care plans that we pay for that
01:41:27 ◼ ► don't result in any kind of repair that helps pay for the cases of the world that's how risk pools work
01:41:31 ◼ ► anyway so yeah that is my uh that is my follow-up if you will about uh express replacement you should
01:41:38 ◼ ► try it oh you know what i didn't i didn't mention though is that i'm on my like sixth screen protector
01:41:44 ◼ ► or something like that yeah well that that is just obviously it's a bad screen protector that doesn't
01:41:48 ◼ ► agree with your life but you're just like if you keep giving me free ones i'll keep taking exactly
01:41:52 ◼ ► which i don't like at a certain point like you should just maybe try a different screen protector
01:41:56 ◼ ► maybe for your next phone well no but here's the thing i i actually had this conversation with
01:42:00 ◼ ► myself because i i thought i was going to quote unquote lose my screen protector because
01:42:05 ◼ ► it didn't i didn't think it was damaged during the fall it was all in the back and i'm not gonna like
01:42:11 ◼ ► even though i would like to i'm not unfair or untruthful enough to deliberately damage it so i
01:42:17 ◼ ► can send the picture to belkin to be like oh guess what it's broken as it turns out though there was a
01:42:21 ◼ ► little bit of damage on the front that i just didn't see it from at first and so uh just seconds ago as we
01:42:26 ◼ ► as we were recording i got the email from belkin saying they're sending me what i think is literally
01:42:31 ◼ ► my fifth or sixth screen protector belkin's gonna be the one who drops you to be like sorry yeah that's
01:42:35 ◼ ► all 100 100 but uh that being said i was thinking mel you know these belkin ones to your point john
01:42:41 ◼ ► i'm constantly freaking breaking them and some of that is surely on me but some of that may be the
01:42:46 ◼ ► screen protector and i thought about doing like one of these other ones like i forget which one it was i can
01:42:53 ◼ ► just strong recommendation for a different kind of screen protector and i think they had like two
01:42:58 ◼ ► in the screen protector box that you buy now granted the i think this one was like 10 or 15 bucks and
01:43:02 ◼ ► belkin one was like 40 but two apparently is not enough for me and i don't think most other screen
01:43:07 ◼ ► protectors do this like basically infinite conga line of replacements more than one in the box doesn't
01:43:12 ◼ ► give me uh uh hope that it's going to be very sturdy exactly like there's something to you knowing it's
01:43:18 ◼ ► going to break well i think it's more like like whenever i whenever i get screen protectors like
01:43:22 ◼ ► from amazon brando brands there's they always come in batches of like six for you know nine dollars like
01:43:28 ◼ ► i think the reality is screen protectors just don't really cost anything to make and it's fine like
01:43:34 ◼ ► they don't really care if they throw in a bunch of extras you know compared to like the cost of okay so
01:43:39 ◼ ► so you know obviously one of the challenges of screen protectors is if you apply it and you got a
01:43:44 ◼ ► speck of dust under it you know sometimes you can fix it sometimes you can't sometimes you just
01:43:47 ◼ ► kind of like ruin one you gotta try again and like imagine all the people who would like be angry and
01:43:52 ◼ ► leave one star reviews if they only had one or whatever and they're like oh well we gave you two
01:43:56 ◼ ► and so you can just try again like i i bet it's worth the companies who make these things like giving a
01:44:03 ◼ ► bunch of extras in lots of cases because it you know it's just so cheap it's you know no sweat off