ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► So, not to turn this into the accidental goose podcast, but when we were at the show together, I had either self-elected or maybe one of you or Tyler had sent me off to get waters, if I remember correctly. I think I self-elected to do that. And I got stopped on the way by a couple of former coworkers. And I was chit-chatting with them. And then one of them I knew some, and he's a nice guy, but I didn't know terribly well. And the other one I knew better.

00:00:27 ◼   ► So we, you know, hadn't seen each other in years and years and chit-chat a little bit then and then made arrangements to meet up for lunch today. And we met up for lunch and we're catching up about, you know, what he's been up to, what I've been up to and so on and so forth. And then toward the end of the lunch, I think apropos of nothing, if I'm not mistaken, my friend Dave said, you know, I got to tell you, I've listened to nothing but goose since that concert.

00:00:53 ◼   ► Same story here. So I got to tell you, it's been, it's been a virus and I am deeply infected. A lot more enjoyable than COVID though. At least I got that going for me.

00:01:02 ◼   ► Yeah, I would say it's substantially less destructive than COVID. I would hope.

00:01:09 ◼   ► All right. We have some administrative to take care of some exciting administrative to take care of. First of all, we're actually remembering for once. And part of the reason I think we're remembering to talk about the new members special is because John had the foresight to put it in our internal show notes with a bright yellow background and a really, really pink foreground new member special.

00:01:34 ◼   ► Because every other time the three of us just plow right, but right by and completely forget to bring it up. So we have a new member special. I'm happy to introduce it, but I think Marco might make the most sense for you to do so.

00:01:45 ◼   ► Yeah. So as listeners might remember, I weirdly bought a restaurant. And so it's a seasonal restaurant that is open only in the summer. The season has now ended for its first year. And so this member special was basically recapping, you know, how the first year went, some lessons learned, some, you know, both technical lessons, things that work, things that didn't work, things that were interesting, as well as people lessons and business lessons.

00:02:13 ◼   ► Um, so that's, I think it turned out pretty well. Uh, so if you care about that kind of stuff, give it a listen.

00:02:18 ◼   ► Yeah. You know, we got, um, a lot of really complimentary feedback on it, which I really, really appreciate, including, um, a lot of people, a lot of people had said, you know, Oh, I used to work food service or maybe even I do work food service. And, you know, it was fascinating to hear what the other, not the other side of the table, but for lack of a better way of describing it, the other side of the table, management and other side of the pass.

00:02:38 ◼   ► There you go. Um, so anyways, what, what the other side looks like, thinks about, et cetera. And, and certainly I have never managed people. And, and if I were to have done so, it would have been likely to have been in, in a more white collar environment. Is that, is that uncouth to say?

00:02:55 ◼   ► The collar happened to be white.

00:02:56 ◼   ► Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Hopefully that's not uncouth, but you know what I mean? So anyways, I thought it was fascinating. I really enjoyed it. And a handful of people reached out and said the same. So we appreciate you. And I appreciate you, uh, Marco, you talked to us about it. I thought it was really good.

00:03:07 ◼   ► Is there some kind of like generic wardrobe thing like that to describe tech workers? Is there like, you know, a, like a blue polo collar? Like what?

00:03:15 ◼   ► Yeah. Right. Right. No, it's a pullover, isn't it? Or whatever the San Franciscans always use black hoodie. It's a black hoodie job. Right. Right. Or, or Patagonia. Isn't that like the common, like a swag?

00:03:25 ◼   ► Well, that's like the investors. Oh yeah. Yeah. The investors were the Patagonia vest in particular, not any Patagonia, but the, the vest. Are you vest people?

00:03:34 ◼   ► I have gone in and out of vests as a like warmth providing technique.

00:03:40 ◼   ► I think everybody who uses them goes in and out of them.

00:03:42 ◼   ► Touché, sir. Um, I mean to say that I have phases where I enjoy them and use them in phases where I do not.

00:03:50 ◼   ► Largely though, I feel like my core isn't the thing that's coldest, even without a vest on it's often my arms that are cold. And, and I'm one of those people, I feel like we just talked about this, maybe not, but I'm one of those people that my legs can be cold and I'm fine with that.

00:04:04 ◼   ► But my arms, if they're cold, I'm very perturbed. And so typically if I'm going to be dressing for warmth, I'm definitely including sleeves. Marco, you don't, I don't, I haven't known you to be a vest person that I can recall.

00:04:17 ◼   ► I don't think I have literally ever worn a vest because the, well, the few times I had to like, you know, as part of like a costume or something or like those weird, the weird, like, you know, tuxedo vest that you get like when in like the, the high school orchestra uniforms, like, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, I don't really get it. I don't get the vest lifestyle. Like to me, I love jackets.

00:04:38 ◼   ► Like the part of why I like fall is that it is the best jacket season because winter jackets are like a little bit too boring because they just have to be super bulky and warm. Summer has no jackets really. And so, but, and, and spring it's too wet.

00:04:52 ◼   ► So that rules out like leather and stuff, but fall, you can fall is where all the best jackets are. And so I, and I love a good jacket and, and I have, I have so many that I just love and I can't wait to wear them for like exactly the right weather that they're, that they're appropriate for.

00:05:07 ◼   ► But vest seem like I'm going to take like this nice jacket and I'm just going to cut off half of it. It removes so much of the feel of the jacket. It's also like, it's not as good as like a hoodie or a pullover or like, I don't really know what they are for. They don't seem like they do much for fashion. They don't seem like they do much for comfort. They seem like, as you said, like they warm up the already warmest part of your body.

00:05:33 ◼   ► I've heard the, uh, the, I would say the, uh, the propaganda from, from the vest enthusiasts that like, well, if you warm up your core, then all of your extremities will also eventually warm up themselves. It's like, okay, but what if you just warm them up immediately from the start? It's actually a lot better that way. And so I, I don't understand. And maybe there's some kind of advantages that vests offer that I don't need. I'm not sure, but whatever they are, I have never felt the need.

00:06:02 ◼   ► And if it's cold enough to need some kind of augmentation and clothing, I'd rather wear a nice, comfortable, like, you know, pullover or a hoodie or a jacket. Cause they're so much nicer.

00:06:14 ◼   ► John, are you a vest person?

00:06:16 ◼   ► As low as I am to expand this diversion, even farther than it's gone. I will say that I'm not a vest person, but I can think of reasons that Marco hasn't mentioned why people might be vest people.

00:06:26 ◼   ► Um, one of them is, I find this when I'm in a season where I've shorts are gone and I'm back to jeans.

00:06:34 ◼   ► I, I find that my shorts pockets are easier to fill with like my phone and wallet and keys than jeans pockets are.

00:06:43 ◼   ► Cause jeans pockets are a little bit less forgiving. And when I go to jacket, the jacket pockets are great for that.

00:06:48 ◼   ► But what if it's not quite jacket weather yet, but it's also no longer shorts weather?

00:06:53 ◼   ► I think a vest would provide you with vest pockets to put stuff without making you too hot because your arms are out.

00:07:00 ◼   ► And the second thing is I could see it for the people who are, again, it's a temperature thing for the people who are sort of find themselves being too hot in a jacket, but too cold without one.

00:07:10 ◼   ► Having a vest is kind of like having blankets on you, but sticking your leg out to moderate the temperature and your arms are the legs in this case where you are, you're keeping yourself warm.

00:07:19 ◼   ► And if you get cold, you can bring your limbs closer to your body.

00:07:22 ◼   ► But if you start to get hot, you can spread your arms out and you'll get to radiate some of the heat, you know?

00:07:26 ◼   ► So it's just like, it's, it's an in-between thing.

00:07:28 ◼   ► I feel like I'm not sure this is why people wear them, but advantages I can see are pockets without sleeves and warmth without being too warm in your arms.

00:07:37 ◼   ► Can't you just wear a jacket and leave it unzipped, which is usually the best way to wear most jackets?

00:07:42 ◼   ► You can do that too, but it depends on where you're generating your heat.

00:07:45 ◼   ► Sometimes, you know, it gets a little sweaty in the armpit area, whereas you're radiating the armpits out with the vest on, you know?

00:07:51 ◼   ► I can see, again, I don't personally own one or have never worn one, but I can see plausible advantages.

00:07:56 ◼   ► Okay, so this morning, I started this morning with a very long walk.

00:08:00 ◼   ► I started out wearing a jacket.

00:08:01 ◼   ► And, you know, as the walk went on, it was like, it was like four miles and I had a backpack on.

00:08:06 ◼   ► So it was like, it was getting a little warm.

00:08:08 ◼   ► And so at first, you know, I started out zipped.

00:08:10 ◼   ► Then I got a little warm.

00:08:11 ◼   ► I unzipped the jacket.

00:08:12 ◼   ► That's step one.

00:08:13 ◼   ► All right.

00:08:13 ◼   ► Then step two was I took off the jacket.

00:08:16 ◼   ► Now, a vest basically starts like kind of between step one and two, I guess, or between two.

00:08:23 ◼   ► Maybe you would never have gotten warm enough that you needed to remove a piece of clothing had you worn a vest.

00:08:27 ◼   ► I think I would have gotten just as warm as when I was wearing like the open jacket.

00:08:31 ◼   ► Well, you'll never know until you try.

00:08:32 ◼   ► And I think a fleece vest would work perfectly on you.

00:08:36 ◼   ► Fleece?

00:08:36 ◼   ► That's way too hot.

00:08:37 ◼   ► Yeah, that's what that's.

00:08:38 ◼   ► That's what the Patagonia stuff are made of, is that?

00:08:40 ◼   ► Some, yes, but not all.

00:08:42 ◼   ► I mean, some of them are.

00:08:43 ◼   ► I would have assumed they were like the micro puff.

00:08:45 ◼   ► Well, I don't know.

00:08:46 ◼   ► I don't know the nuance differences.

00:08:47 ◼   ► I'm saying that fuzzy kind of fabric.

00:08:48 ◼   ► No, the best reason to buy Patagonia is they have this like nano puff or micro puff insulation

00:08:53 ◼   ► that like is basic synthetic insulation.

00:08:55 ◼   ► It weighs nothing and is super warm.

00:08:57 ◼   ► The downside is their stuff tends to look like trash bags full of stuffing, but it's super practical.

00:09:03 ◼   ► As a final vest related note, I will say that I do love a suit with a vest, which means it's probably deeply unfashionable.

00:09:09 ◼   ► But I do.

00:09:10 ◼   ► I do enjoy that quite a bit like a tuxedo.

00:09:12 ◼   ► Well, I'm even just a regular suit.

00:09:14 ◼   ► But with a, you know, vest below the jacket, I do really enjoy it.

00:09:18 ◼   ► To be clear, I have no judgment against formal suit vests.

00:09:23 ◼   ► Like they can be part of a very elegant suit.

00:09:25 ◼   ► That's a totally different thing than what we're talking about.

00:09:28 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:09:29 ◼   ► All right.

00:09:30 ◼   ► Well, you know what, Marco, you had mentioned earlier, you know, that the vest propagandists

00:09:34 ◼   ► will tell you you need to keep your core warm in order to be warm.

00:09:38 ◼   ► And there's another kind of propagandist who I think is actually supported by science that

00:09:42 ◼   ► would tell you that in order to keep your body warm, you need to capture heat in the places

00:09:46 ◼   ► that it's most likely to escape, which as far as I'm aware is your feet and what?

00:09:51 ◼   ► Your head.

00:09:52 ◼   ► And if only there was a mechanism by which you could fill your, your, keep your heat

00:09:58 ◼   ► tucked in nice and tight around your head.

00:10:00 ◼   ► And I think that we might have a solution for you.

00:10:03 ◼   ► John, do you have anything you might've cooked up that we can talk about here?

00:10:07 ◼   ► I do.

00:10:07 ◼   ► It's that time of year again.

00:10:08 ◼   ► It's time for the ATP holiday store.

00:10:11 ◼   ► And I know this seems to get earlier and earlier every year, but like I said, uh, every time

00:10:15 ◼   ► we launch this, we're always trying to get people their stuff before the holidays.

00:10:19 ◼   ► And that is tricky with the variability of shipping and everything.

00:10:22 ◼   ► And plus we want the sale to run for a long time.

00:10:23 ◼   ► So anyway, the sale is starting right now.

00:10:25 ◼   ► If you're listening live, you can go to the store right now, atp.fm slash store.

00:10:29 ◼   ► And obviously it's not even November yet, John, this is like pumpkin spice creep.

00:10:33 ◼   ► My wife was just having the big list of like the, the Hallmark holiday movies.

00:10:37 ◼   ► They're starting already too.

00:10:38 ◼   ► So yeah, we just, we, it'll, it'll, they'll run through November.

00:10:41 ◼   ► The sale ends November 9th, but it is starting right now.

00:10:45 ◼   ► Here's what we've got for you in the holiday store this year.

00:10:47 ◼   ► As Casey alluded to, we do in fact have another hat.

00:10:51 ◼   ► Uh, I think it was last year or the year before at some point in the past, we did the ATP chicken

00:10:55 ◼   ► hat, which is an attempt, uh, to reproduce a hat that I own in love by manufacturing something

00:11:03 ◼   ► that is essentially exactly like the 20 year old hat that I have in my house, only a different

00:11:07 ◼   ► color and with an ATP logo on it.

00:11:09 ◼   ► Um, and that product was very successful and lots of people liked it.

00:11:12 ◼   ► Um, I think it was successful because it allowed me to have new sort of backup copies of my

00:11:18 ◼   ► beloved chicken hat.

00:11:19 ◼   ► It's called the chicken hat because when you put it on your head, it's kind of like a, like

00:11:23 ◼   ► a pointy kind of flat top triangle shape that goes along the top of your head, kind of like

00:11:27 ◼   ► a comb on a rooster.

00:11:28 ◼   ► And I know a rooster is not a chicken.

00:11:29 ◼   ► It's not a perfect name.

00:11:30 ◼   ► Anyway, um, my dad used to wear these hats when I was a kid.

00:11:33 ◼   ► I got one.

00:11:34 ◼   ► I wore it for years.

00:11:35 ◼   ► Uh, I wanted to reproduce it and I did it.

00:11:38 ◼   ► Lots of people bought them.

00:11:39 ◼   ► They liked them.

00:11:40 ◼   ► It was great.

00:11:40 ◼   ► And then it went away and some people were like, oh, I don't know.

00:11:42 ◼   ► I missed out on the chicken hat.

00:11:43 ◼   ► Well, you know, you snooze, you lose.

00:11:44 ◼   ► This is a one-off custom product that we made, but there were some complaints about the chicken

00:11:48 ◼   ► hat.

00:11:49 ◼   ► So what we have now is chicken hat 2.0.

00:11:52 ◼   ► It tries to address the two main complaints about the chicken hat 1.0.

00:11:56 ◼   ► It's the same as the regular chicken hat, but we just upgraded the processor.

00:11:59 ◼   ► If only, if only, um, I went through many iterations and many prototypes to come up with

00:12:04 ◼   ► the 2.0 surprisingly.

00:12:05 ◼   ► So the first is that it is slightly bigger than the original chicken hat.

00:12:10 ◼   ► One of the complaints we had from people who had larger heads was that my one size fits

00:12:14 ◼   ► all chicken hat, which by the way, my original chicken hat for 20 years ago is literally one

00:12:17 ◼   ► size fits all.

00:12:18 ◼   ► It says it in the little tag thing, right?

00:12:20 ◼   ► One size fits all chicken hat.

00:12:21 ◼   ► One size is obviously not going to fit all.

00:12:23 ◼   ► Um, and my 20 year old one had been through the wash several times.

00:12:26 ◼   ► So it had surely shrunk.

00:12:27 ◼   ► Now it fit in my head fine.

00:12:28 ◼   ► And the one, the, the copy I made chicken at 1.0, if you lay it on top of my original hat,

00:12:33 ◼   ► they're exactly the same.

00:12:34 ◼   ► So I fulfilled that mission, but some people said, Hey, I got a big head.

00:12:37 ◼   ► I bought you chicken hat.

00:12:38 ◼   ► It's too tight on me.

00:12:39 ◼   ► I don't like it.

00:12:39 ◼   ► So this one is slightly bigger, not tremendously bigger because we didn't just want to make

00:12:43 ◼   ► this a big head hat just for Elaine Bennis, right?

00:12:46 ◼   ► We wanted to make it just slightly bigger.

00:12:48 ◼   ► So it is approximately, and I have to say approximately because it's so hard to measure

00:12:52 ◼   ► this because it's made of like fuzzy, stretchy material.

00:12:54 ◼   ► It is approximately one half inch larger in circumference, which doesn't sound like a lot,

00:12:58 ◼   ► but I can tell you when you start adding distance to circumference on hats, it makes them feel

00:13:02 ◼   ► looser real fast.

00:13:02 ◼   ► So this is slightly bigger.

00:13:04 ◼   ► If the old one fit you, I think this one will too.

00:13:07 ◼   ► This one fits me fine too.

00:13:08 ◼   ► If the last one was not even close to fitting you, this one probably won't either, but just

00:13:12 ◼   ► FYI, this one is slightly bigger.

00:13:14 ◼   ► Second, lots of people didn't know how to wear the old chicken hat because we went back and

00:13:18 ◼   ► forth about where to put the ATP logo on the chicken hat 1.0.

00:13:22 ◼   ► We ended up putting it kind of on the back side and I thought, well, it doesn't really

00:13:27 ◼   ► matter where the logo is.

00:13:27 ◼   ► People will see the seam and they'll just know with clothes that the seam goes in the

00:13:30 ◼   ► back.

00:13:31 ◼   ► But a lot of people didn't know that a lot of people put the seam in the front.

00:13:33 ◼   ► People wore it sideways, like you can wear the hat however you want, but it was supposed

00:13:36 ◼   ► to go with the seam in the back.

00:13:37 ◼   ► So this one, we've solved that problem by putting the ATP logo where everybody thought it should

00:13:43 ◼   ► be on the old hat, which is front and center.

00:13:46 ◼   ► So like right along like the headband on your forehead, there is a full color ATP logo just

00:13:51 ◼   ► like it wasn't before, but instead of being on the back, it's on the front.

00:13:54 ◼   ► So there you go.

00:13:55 ◼   ► ATP chicken hat 2.0, about a half inch bigger in circumference.

00:13:58 ◼   ► Logo is on the front and center.

00:14:00 ◼   ► Supplies of this item are limited because we have to guess how many you're going to buy

00:14:03 ◼   ► and then buy them all up front, which is what we did.

00:14:05 ◼   ► And now I cross my fingers and hope we didn't guess wrong.

00:14:07 ◼   ► There is a limited number of these and when they're gone, they're gone.

00:14:10 ◼   ► And if they're not gone, we'll be selling them for the next 10 years.

00:14:12 ◼   ► So please don't make us sell them for 10 years.

00:14:17 ◼   ► Go ahead.

00:14:17 ◼   ► Yeah, we'll get to that when we get to the last product.

00:14:19 ◼   ► Anyway, next up, we've got a bunch of new products this year.

00:14:22 ◼   ► We're going to begin the theme of the new products in a bit.

00:14:25 ◼   ► But first we have a conventional new product, which is the ATP quarter zip.

00:14:29 ◼   ► If you've ever purchased the ATP embroidered zip hoodie, this is not that.

00:14:35 ◼   ► This has a zip, but it doesn't go all the way down.

00:14:37 ◼   ► It just zips down about a quarter of the way.

00:14:39 ◼   ► I'm told these are very popular.

00:14:40 ◼   ► I personally think either make it zip all the way or don't have a zipper.

00:14:43 ◼   ► But apparently people love these things and they do look very fall-like.

00:14:46 ◼   ► They're kind of some kind of fuzzy, cozy, stretchy material.

00:14:50 ◼   ► Come in a couple of colors and they have an embroidered full color ATP logo

00:14:53 ◼   ► that's on the upper left of the chest.

00:14:56 ◼   ► So they look very fall-like and snuggly.

00:14:59 ◼   ► And I'm probably going to get one just to try it out,

00:15:01 ◼   ► even though I think it's dumb that the zipper doesn't go all the way down.

00:15:03 ◼   ► But that's the ATP quarter zip.

00:15:05 ◼   ► I would also like to add, well, I will sell it by saying,

00:15:09 ◼   ► even though I adore the ATP hoodie,

00:15:12 ◼   ► I don't actually want the hoodie part of the hoodie.

00:15:15 ◼   ► I'd rather an ATP zippered sweatshirt.

00:15:18 ◼   ► We've gone back and forth with Cotton Bureau about how to make that happen.

00:15:20 ◼   ► We, and by that I mean I,

00:15:22 ◼   ► haven't really been happy with any of the options so far,

00:15:24 ◼   ► which is why it hasn't happened.

00:15:26 ◼   ► But this is very close to that insofar as there's no hood.

00:15:30 ◼   ► It is a sweatshirt.

00:15:32 ◼   ► I don't know if it's sweatshirt material.

00:15:33 ◼   ► It's got like a little collar on it kind of.

00:15:34 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:15:35 ◼   ► So I am definitely going to pick one of these up and I'm excited to try it as well.

00:15:39 ◼   ► This looks very stylish.

00:15:40 ◼   ► You could wear this to work and it would be fine.

00:15:42 ◼   ► Like it's a good fall thing and it comes in some fun colors.

00:15:44 ◼   ► It's like a black one, obviously.

00:15:45 ◼   ► There's a navy one, but there's also a white one,

00:15:47 ◼   ► which seems like it would be a nightmare to keep clean,

00:15:49 ◼   ► but it looks really good with the logo on it.

00:15:52 ◼   ► It reminds me of like old Apple stuff.

00:15:53 ◼   ► So check it out.

00:15:54 ◼   ► There's also like a greenish one as well.

00:15:56 ◼   ► Now for the theme for the new products for before,

00:15:59 ◼   ► before these other products came in,

00:16:01 ◼   ► the theme for the new products this year is strangely described as ugly clothing.

00:16:09 ◼   ► And this is, wow, wow.

00:16:11 ◼   ► Continuing the amazing sales pitch.

00:16:13 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:16:14 ◼   ► Items that are, have things on them that are known to be not particularly visually pleasing,

00:16:22 ◼   ► but that's part of the point.

00:16:23 ◼   ► So I'll start with the first one and hopefully this will make sense.

00:16:25 ◼   ► Uh, the, the, this new shirt, a new product is called ATP Tahoe.

00:16:30 ◼   ► Uh, you may see where this is going.

00:16:32 ◼   ► If you've heard the program or heard us talk about Tahoe, uh, it's difficult to do anything

00:16:37 ◼   ► kind of liquid glassy on these shirts.

00:16:40 ◼   ► If you're not doing like the on-demand sort of dot matrix printing thing, these are like,

00:16:43 ◼   ► these are solid color ink, multiple passes, blah, blah, blah, like the high quality thing,

00:16:47 ◼   ► but you can't really do like gradients or smooth things.

00:16:50 ◼   ► So we couldn't do any sort of refracted glass or blurry text or anything.

00:16:54 ◼   ► It wouldn't, it wouldn't work well with this type of shirt.

00:16:57 ◼   ► So what I decided to do was, uh, macOS Tahoe, uh, had changed a bunch of icons for the Apple

00:17:04 ◼   ► system apps.

00:17:04 ◼   ► And in particular, they changed a whole bunch of sort of utility icons to use this god awful

00:17:09 ◼   ► crescent wrench inside a round rack with like a, uh, what is it?

00:17:13 ◼   ► A hexagon or an octa is a hexagon.

00:17:15 ◼   ► I think a hexagon inside the thing.

00:17:18 ◼   ► So this is the crescent wrench in the squircle, uh, with a hexagon and inside the hexagon is

00:17:23 ◼   ► an ATP logo.

00:17:24 ◼   ► Uh, and, uh, here's my description of the product on the ATP store website.

00:17:29 ◼   ► MacOS 26 Tahoe is a thing that happened.

00:17:32 ◼   ► Wear this shirt inspired by Tahoe's most awkward icons as a warning for future generations.

00:17:37 ◼   ► Well done, John.

00:17:38 ◼   ► This shirt, this shirt is to not to commemorate, but just to, to mark the occasion that we lived

00:17:44 ◼   ► through a time when Apple decided to change its icons in macOS and it decided that a bunch

00:17:49 ◼   ► of them were going to look like this, not just one, not just one awful icon like this,

00:17:52 ◼   ► but, but a family of them.

00:17:54 ◼   ► Uh, and I'm also kind of marking liquid glass as a thing.

00:17:59 ◼   ► Again, it's harder to do that on a t-shirt, but I figured this was a good standard bear.

00:18:02 ◼   ► You'll have the shirt and you'll look back and say, remember, hopefully we'll all look

00:18:05 ◼   ► back and laugh.

00:18:05 ◼   ► Say, remember when they did that?

00:18:07 ◼   ► Do you believe they changed the icons to look like this?

00:18:10 ◼   ► That's what this shirt is.

00:18:11 ◼   ► Now, if you think that icon is ugly, you're wearing a shirt with an ugly icon.

00:18:15 ◼   ► And I think it's ugly, but it's kind of like, it's an important memorial.

00:18:18 ◼   ► So if you want to mark that occasion, the shirts themselves come in many different colors.

00:18:24 ◼   ► And this, like all the products this year, I'm getting a t-shirt, long sleeves, a sweatshirt,

00:18:28 ◼   ► a pullover hoodie, a tank top, any variety and a whole bunch of different colors.

00:18:32 ◼   ► All with that god-awful icon on it with the ATP logo inside it.

00:18:35 ◼   ► That's ATP's title.

00:18:36 ◼   ► Next, we have an idea that is not my idea.

00:18:40 ◼   ► This came from Adam Brandon long ago.

00:18:43 ◼   ► Full credit to Adam Brandon for this idea.

00:18:45 ◼   ► This is a shirt.

00:18:47 ◼   ► Let's start with the first one.

00:18:48 ◼   ► It's called ATP T5-68A.

00:18:51 ◼   ► Do you know what T5-68A is?

00:18:54 ◼   ► If you've listened to the show for a long time, you do.

00:18:57 ◼   ► T5-68A is one of the wiring standards for how you connect the different wires into an RJ-45 Ethernet jack.

00:19:04 ◼   ► And the wires come in solid colors and stripe colors, and it tells you what order they go in.

00:19:08 ◼   ► Put the solid red one, the green stripe one, you know, like what order should they go in from right to left?

00:19:13 ◼   ► Because there has to be the same order on both ends of the connector, otherwise things don't work.

00:19:15 ◼   ► And T5-68A is a standard for doing that.

00:19:19 ◼   ► As the description of the shirt says, the one true Ethernet wiring standard.

00:19:23 ◼   ► And it comes, it is the ATP logo with the six color stripes replaced with the colors of the Ethernet wires in the order that they are in T5-68A.

00:19:32 ◼   ► Absolutely incredible idea.

00:19:34 ◼   ► And I'm so happy that you executed on it.

00:19:37 ◼   ► And I think the Ethernet wiring colors are ugly.

00:19:40 ◼   ► They're certainly not as pretty as the ATP, like Apple-inspired six color logos.

00:19:45 ◼   ► There is like green and brown is one of the colors and orange and blue and red.

00:19:49 ◼   ► It's not particularly pretty, but.

00:19:52 ◼   ► I mean, they're literally made to never be seen.

00:19:54 ◼   ► And yes, and if you wear this shirt, first of all, say somebody has no idea what the heck ATP is, but they're a network engineer.

00:20:01 ◼   ► Those stripes are going to trigger something deep within them.

00:20:04 ◼   ► They're going to be like, is that?

00:20:06 ◼   ► They're going to be like, I think that's, is that a tennis shirt?

00:20:09 ◼   ► Or, but like, why does it have Ethernet?

00:20:12 ◼   ► It might say, huh, it's funny.

00:20:13 ◼   ► I don't know what your shirt is about, but it kind of reminds me of Ethernet wires.

00:20:16 ◼   ► You can go, well, you know, those actually are the Ethernet wires.

00:20:19 ◼   ► You're not, it's not just reminding you of them.

00:20:21 ◼   ► This shirt is intentionally invoking.

00:20:23 ◼   ► And that's like never going to happen.

00:20:24 ◼   ► The whole game where my family's playing to try to get someone to recognize them.

00:20:27 ◼   ► This is a way harder level because, you know, forget about people knowing what ATP is.

00:20:32 ◼   ► They have to know by looking at, they have to have crimped so many wires to be able to look at this and know, I recognize those colors.

00:20:38 ◼   ► I recognize that stripe color pattern.

00:20:40 ◼   ► That's Ethernet.

00:20:41 ◼   ► That's the point of this shirt is perhaps one of the nerdiest shirts we've ever gotten.

00:20:44 ◼   ► This and the Palm one.

00:20:45 ◼   ► Remember we did like the Palm graffiti ATP logo.

00:20:47 ◼   ► If someone comments on this shirt, you have found a fellow nerd.

00:20:51 ◼   ► And you can, I'm going to buy one of these and I'm a poser.

00:20:53 ◼   ► I don't think I've ever crimped an Ethernet cable, but I'm going to wear one anyway, because I know what the standard is.

00:20:58 ◼   ► You're missing out, John.

00:20:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:00 ◼   ► So anyway, thank you, Adam Brandon, for that idea.

00:21:02 ◼   ► The next shirt in our lineup is, of course, ATP T568B.

00:21:07 ◼   ► The other one true Ethernet wiring standard.

00:21:10 ◼   ► Because, of course, there are two wiring standards, T568A and T568B, that are different from each other for historic reasons.

00:21:18 ◼   ► Again, we'll put a link in the show on so you can see whatever past episode where we talked about this.

00:21:21 ◼   ► So we have two T-shirts, 568A and 568B.

00:21:24 ◼   ► And what's the difference?

00:21:26 ◼   ► The colored stripes are in the B order on the B shirt and in the A order on the A shirt.

00:21:31 ◼   ► If you buy both of these shirts and wear them on different days, you can, and someone at work makes a comment on it, the next week you wear the B one, see if they notice.

00:21:38 ◼   ► See if they notice that it's changed.

00:21:39 ◼   ► See if they even know or are aware that it's different.

00:21:41 ◼   ► Because a lot of people, I think, are crimping connectors that have only ever been taught, like, either they've only ever been taught the A way or the B way.

00:21:46 ◼   ► They don't know there's two.

00:21:47 ◼   ► Anyway, we have two almost identical shirts that make our logo uglier.

00:21:51 ◼   ► Incredible.

00:21:52 ◼   ► Amazing.

00:21:53 ◼   ► I love this.

00:21:54 ◼   ► I love it.

00:21:54 ◼   ► I absolutely love this.

00:21:56 ◼   ► Moving on to more conventional products.

00:21:57 ◼   ► I forgot all about this until the products were announced.

00:22:00 ◼   ► M5.

00:22:02 ◼   ► We have M5 shirts.

00:22:03 ◼   ► Like, I had all the products ready for the store, and then Apple announced all the M5-based products.

00:22:07 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, yeah, we should do M5 shirts.

00:22:10 ◼   ► So we did, again, no chip on the back.

00:22:11 ◼   ► It's just the M5 logo on the front with the pretty ATP colors.

00:22:15 ◼   ► You can wear this, and everyone will think you're talking about BMWs.

00:22:17 ◼   ► Whole deal.

00:22:18 ◼   ► Again, same thing.

00:22:19 ◼   ► All the different varieties, long-sleeve sweatshirt, pull-over ready, all that stuff.

00:22:23 ◼   ► And we have a monochrome version of the M5 shirt, which is a little bit cheaper because it has only one ink color.

00:22:27 ◼   ► And it comes on a huge variety of colors.

00:22:29 ◼   ► So you can get, you know, a purple or teal shirt with an M5 logo on it.

00:22:34 ◼   ► It's real nice.

00:22:36 ◼   ► These next products, I will keep selling until, even if not enough people buy them for them to be printed, which hasn't happened yet, but I conceivably could happen.

00:22:43 ◼   ► I'm going to keep selling them until this issue resolves itself in one way or another.

00:22:46 ◼   ► It's the Mac Pro Believe shirts.

00:22:48 ◼   ► I'm still out here believing.

00:22:50 ◼   ► They're either going to cancel this product, or they're going to make a decent Mac Pro, or they're going to do something.

00:22:54 ◼   ► When that happens, I will stop selling the Believe shirt, probably, and make a new shirt, either celebrating or bemoaning whatever it is that they did.

00:23:02 ◼   ► But nothing has happened yet.

00:23:05 ◼   ► Mac Pro Believe shirts are available still.

00:23:09 ◼   ► And then, of course, we have our ATP 6 color shirts, which is a white ATP logo on a variety of color shirts.

00:23:15 ◼   ► We have our classic ATP merch, regular shirt, which has the rainbow ATP logo on a black shirt.

00:23:22 ◼   ► And then we have our zip hoodie, which was mentioned before.

00:23:25 ◼   ► Still a great item.

00:23:26 ◼   ► Still, my kids love theirs.

00:23:28 ◼   ► When they destroy them, they ask for a new one.

00:23:30 ◼   ► It's really nice.

00:23:32 ◼   ► We have our ATP hat, and then finally, the ATP hat is a baseball hat, not the chicken hat, just a baseball hat with an embroidered ATP logo on it.

00:23:39 ◼   ► And finally, the ATP mugs that we've been selling for, I don't know how long, two years now?

00:23:43 ◼   ► I don't even know how long we've been selling these mugs.

00:23:47 ◼   ► These are the same batch of mugs.

00:23:48 ◼   ► When we guessed very wrong about how many we would sell, there are literally 10 mugs left.

00:23:53 ◼   ► There have been 10 mugs left for like three months.

00:23:58 ◼   ► Cool.

00:23:59 ◼   ► These mugs are priced to move.

00:24:01 ◼   ► We've given up all semblance of making any kind of money.

00:24:04 ◼   ► We are just trying to get rid of these mugs.

00:24:06 ◼   ► Please buy these mugs.

00:24:07 ◼   ► There's 10 of them.

00:24:08 ◼   ► I know we can do it if we can get rid of these mugs.

00:24:11 ◼   ► And then we can just have chicken hats in inventory for the next 10 years.

00:24:14 ◼   ► They're white on the outside and like a bluey purple.

00:24:16 ◼   ► I think they look real good.

00:24:18 ◼   ► I bought a bunch of them.

00:24:18 ◼   ► Yes.

00:24:19 ◼   ► They're like, it's cobalt blue on the outside and cobalt blue painted on the inside.

00:24:23 ◼   ► It's really nice.

00:24:23 ◼   ► I like it.

00:24:24 ◼   ► It's just, I feel like anyone who wants a mug has one.

00:24:27 ◼   ► And now these are, anyway, they're priced to move.

00:24:29 ◼   ► 10 ATP mugs.

00:24:30 ◼   ► Please get rid of them.

00:24:31 ◼   ► You'll hear more about the show over the coming several weeks.

00:24:34 ◼   ► Again, the sale ends November 9th.

00:24:35 ◼   ► If you are an ATP member, remember that you get 15% off everything in the store.

00:24:39 ◼   ► If you go to your member page, there will be a promo code for you there.

00:24:43 ◼   ► You can paste in during the checkout process.

00:24:45 ◼   ► If you log into ATP.fm and then go to ATP.fm slash store, you don't have to do that.

00:24:50 ◼   ► If you click on any of the links, it will bring your promo code with you because you're logged

00:24:53 ◼   ► in and it knows what your promo code is.

00:24:54 ◼   ► That system we developed a couple of years ago and it seems to work well.

00:24:57 ◼   ► If you want to become a member, it is very easy to make up the price of one month of membership

00:25:03 ◼   ► with the savings you get from 15% off if you buy a bunch of stuff.

00:25:06 ◼   ► So there you have it.

00:25:07 ◼   ► ATP.fm slash store.

00:25:09 ◼   ► Become a member to get 15% off.

00:25:11 ◼   ► If you are a member, you will already get 15% off.

00:25:13 ◼   ► Lots of great new products in the lineup this year.

00:25:15 ◼   ► Some of our nerdiest ever.

00:25:17 ◼   ► Some of our ugliest ever.

00:25:18 ◼   ► Plus some classics.

00:25:20 ◼   ► This is genuinely and also sarcastically incredible work, John.

00:25:26 ◼   ► I'm very proud of you.

00:25:28 ◼   ► All right, let's do some follow-up.

00:25:29 ◼   ► Let's go to ATP recognition corner.

00:25:32 ◼   ► I really do want to retire this, but it brings me so much joy.

00:25:35 ◼   ► I know nobody else cares about this but me, but I love it.

00:25:37 ◼   ► We had two independent reports.

00:25:40 ◼   ► There was a really important and really impressive protest this past Saturday, the No Kings protest

00:25:46 ◼   ► here in America, which not to get political, but I think all three of us, I'm pretty sure

00:25:51 ◼   ► I can say all three of us stand with those who are protesting.

00:25:54 ◼   ► We agree with you.

00:25:54 ◼   ► Anyways, Ben and Alexander each independently emailed ATP to say, hey, I met this other person

00:26:01 ◼   ► and we, you know, one of them saw the other in an ATP shirt and they really hit it off and

00:26:06 ◼   ► had a really good time hanging out at the No Kings rally in Chicago.

00:26:08 ◼   ► So I freaking love this.

00:26:10 ◼   ► I think this is adorable and great and excellent and awesome and I love every bit of it.

00:26:14 ◼   ► And then Pat Beely wrote in, after hearing the follow-up about an ATP polo getting someone

00:26:20 ◼   ► a job in the ensuing favorite host discussion, I wanted to cast my vote for Future Marco.

00:26:25 ◼   ► Only members get to hear him, though.

00:26:27 ◼   ► Members don't get to hear Future Marco.

00:26:30 ◼   ► That's the thing, yeah.

00:26:31 ◼   ► They get to hear Casey talking to Future Marco, but Future Marco is silent.

00:26:35 ◼   ► Never responds.

00:26:36 ◼   ► He's not, we're not recording, when Future Marco exists, there's no recording going on

00:26:40 ◼   ► because he's editing.

00:26:40 ◼   ► No, Future Marco at least has one word.

00:26:42 ◼   ► Bye.

00:26:43 ◼   ► But that's also present Marco.

00:26:47 ◼   ► That's technically Future Marco from the time that Casey mentions you, but the real Future

00:26:51 ◼   ► Marco he's talking to is the Future Marco in editing land.

00:26:54 ◼   ► Fair.

00:26:55 ◼   ► Anyway, what do you mean?

00:26:56 ◼   ► You like Future Marco.

00:26:57 ◼   ► I see.

00:26:57 ◼   ► It was very good.

00:26:58 ◼   ► Present Marco is always becoming Future Marco, though, so there's that.

00:27:01 ◼   ► Oh, gosh.

00:27:03 ◼   ► Can we not?

00:27:04 ◼   ► Can we not?

00:27:04 ◼   ► All right, moving right along.

00:27:05 ◼   ► A while ago, a few months ago now, maybe a couple months ago, I was talking about a really

00:27:10 ◼   ► kind of weird bug in Call Sheet, and the short-term version of it is, particularly when you're

00:27:15 ◼   ► looking at a person in Call Sheet, if you flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, and scroll

00:27:18 ◼   ► super, super fast, and go scrolling up and down, up and down, up and down, eventually the

00:27:24 ◼   ► table view, which is really a SwiftUI list, it will just start dropping rows.

00:27:28 ◼   ► So you'll start losing some of a person's filmography.

00:27:31 ◼   ► And I realized, eventually, that that is definitely not my bug.

00:27:36 ◼   ► That's definitely an Apple bug.

00:27:37 ◼   ► And I begged and pleaded through every mechanism I could think of, please, Apple, please, can

00:27:43 ◼   ► you fix this?

00:27:44 ◼   ► And sure enough, from everything I can tell, it is indeed fixed in 26.1.

00:27:49 ◼   ► And I should add, I've heard a lot of people with their own pet bugs, or whatever the case

00:27:53 ◼   ► may be, that have also said very good and complimentary things about 26.1.

00:27:57 ◼   ► It sure seems like 26.1 is the real .0, from what I can tell.

00:28:02 ◼   ► So I think it's probably pretty safe to update, upgrade, whatever, when the time comes.

00:28:08 ◼   ► So I just wanted to publicly thank Apple and the SwiftUI developers for squaring this one

00:28:12 ◼   ► away, because I'm sure it was a doozy.

00:28:13 ◼   ► My brief bug story, I got one of my bugs sort of fixed in 26.1.

00:28:18 ◼   ► And they said, hey, can you check to see if this is fixed, blah, blah, blah.

00:28:21 ◼   ► I looked at it, and I said, yeah, you fixed part of it, but part of it's not fixed, because

00:28:26 ◼   ► I did my bug report like a dutiful little bug report with a sample project with text in

00:28:30 ◼   ► the sample project, so you don't have to look in two different places that says, do this,

00:28:34 ◼   ► expected results, A, actual results, B.

00:28:37 ◼   ► And they made the actual results match half of the expected results, but not all of it.

00:28:43 ◼   ► And so I said, well, you know, good, you fixed one of these things, but this other thing is

00:28:47 ◼   ► still broken.

00:28:47 ◼   ► And after several back and forth, they said, we just want to close this one.

00:28:52 ◼   ► We have, we're tracking that other part.

00:28:54 ◼   ► We're tracking the other part that you talked about in a separate bug.

00:28:56 ◼   ► So can you just close this one?

00:28:57 ◼   ► And I replied again and said, can you tell me the feedback number or somehow like if they

00:29:03 ◼   ► split this off for my bug, I'm no longer updated on the progress.

00:29:05 ◼   ► Not that I'm updated that much anyway, but I'm kind of annoyed by that.

00:29:08 ◼   ► Their desire to close this bug because it, because it involves like the, the actual unexpected

00:29:12 ◼   ► results are multifaceted and they just fix one facet and they want their cookie for fixing

00:29:17 ◼   ► the one facet.

00:29:18 ◼   ► And like, good, I'm glad you fixed that one facet.

00:29:20 ◼   ► It was the worst part, but there's another part and they want it to be a separate bug

00:29:23 ◼   ► and I'm annoyed by that.

00:29:24 ◼   ► So I'm just venting slightly, but there's yet another way that feedback can be slightly

00:29:27 ◼   ► annoying because once I close this, I'm pretty sure they're going to say, yeah, you have

00:29:31 ◼   ► no more visibility into any of this.

00:29:32 ◼   ► I asked, should I file another bug?

00:29:34 ◼   ► Should I file a separate bug for the second part of it?

00:29:36 ◼   ► Cause that seems wasteful.

00:29:37 ◼   ► But anyway, feedback, it is what it is.

00:29:39 ◼   ► Yep.

00:29:40 ◼   ► And, uh, I also would like to add that I have a new bug.

00:29:44 ◼   ► Um, so I'm right on the precipice of getting my much delayed and late, uh, liquid glass

00:29:52 ◼   ► update out for call sheet.

00:29:53 ◼   ► And in doing testing, I noticed actually a tester noticed that if you imagine call sheet, you

00:30:00 ◼   ► know, there's a little pin icon in the toolbar that you can tap in order to pin or favorite

00:30:05 ◼   ► an item.

00:30:05 ◼   ► And then you can tap and hold in order to get a menu of other actions.

00:30:08 ◼   ► This works great in 18 in 26.0 and 26.1.

00:30:12 ◼   ► If you tap the, the pin, it just drops out on the floor.

00:30:17 ◼   ► And it turns out that it's, it's, um, menu.

00:30:20 ◼   ► And then there's like a content label and then a, uh, a place where it takes a closure

00:30:25 ◼   ► for a, uh, default action or primary action is I believe what it's called.

00:30:30 ◼   ► And so this is such that you can provide a default action when you tap rather than tap

00:30:35 ◼   ► and hold.

00:30:35 ◼   ► And it appears that Swift UI is just dropping that on the ground.

00:30:38 ◼   ► So I have a new feedback for you, Apple people.

00:30:40 ◼   ► Now that you finally solved my first one, I would love you very much if you could solve

00:30:45 ◼   ► this one too.

00:30:46 ◼   ► And we'll put a feedback number in the show notes.

00:30:48 ◼   ► You really only have one.

00:30:49 ◼   ► I have like seven in flight that who knows that they were going to get responses to it.

00:30:53 ◼   ► But like just, they did fix a lot in 26.1, but I think only one of mine got any

00:30:59 ◼   ► attention.

00:30:59 ◼   ► Well, I will say that the 20, the, the, the scrolling bug that I was talking about, it

00:31:04 ◼   ► is definitely an issue for other apps.

00:31:05 ◼   ► I've heard people give me feedback that they've had the same problem, but I don't

00:31:09 ◼   ► think it's that widespread.

00:31:10 ◼   ► However, this primary action on the menu thing, that is pretty widespread and it will affect

00:31:15 ◼   ► a lot of people using Swift UI.

00:31:17 ◼   ► So I hope that Apple people hear this and say something and do something about it because

00:31:21 ◼   ► it's driving me bananas.

00:31:22 ◼   ► Yeah, that will affect me too.

00:31:24 ◼   ► Um, I look, I just discovered that the menu primary action thing.

00:31:29 ◼   ► which is, that's how you can, you can give a long press menu onto something that otherwise

00:31:35 ◼   ► has a tap action.

00:31:36 ◼   ► That's something else.

00:31:37 ◼   ► So like in Overcast, the recent cells that go across the top by default of the home screen

00:31:42 ◼   ► in Overcast showing like recently played, recently played, new, new, like those in the latest

00:31:47 ◼   ► version, I added a thing where you could tap and hold to get a pop-up menu, which has

00:31:51 ◼   ► been something that pre-rewrite Overcast could do that.

00:31:54 ◼   ► In Swift UI, I didn't know if there was a way I couldn't find one last summer when I

00:31:58 ◼   ► was writing all that.

00:31:59 ◼   ► Yeah, I've been there.

00:32:00 ◼   ► And this apparently has been added or at some point and I only discovered it recently and

00:32:06 ◼   ► I, it was great.

00:32:07 ◼   ► It was wonderful.

00:32:07 ◼   ► So if this, if that is now broken, that's very sad.

00:32:12 ◼   ► But that being said, I, I'm really, I hope Apple gets 26.1 out soon.

00:32:18 ◼   ► I know they're currently on beta four.

00:32:19 ◼   ► The betas are coming pretty quickly, about once a week.

00:32:21 ◼   ► 26.1, as far as I'm concerned, cannot come quickly enough because I still am getting so

00:32:31 ◼   ► many emails, tweets or whatever we're calling them and negative reviews on the app store

00:32:39 ◼   ► for Apple's bugs.

00:32:40 ◼   ► And it, I, I cannot tell, like, look, I mean, I'm, I made the mistake this morning.

00:32:47 ◼   ► I just released this big, this big update to Overcast that did a whole bunch of like core

00:32:52 ◼   ► engine fixes, downloads, streaming, Apple watch sync, like really like the biggest areas that

00:32:58 ◼   ► people have been complaining about for a year.

00:33:01 ◼   ► I just did this huge upgrade that fixes them substantially, like, you know, total rewrite

00:33:08 ◼   ► of the downloader, huge fixes and improvements to the watch sync, like streaming.

00:33:12 ◼   ► And now you can free stream from anywhere again, just like the very ancient version of the streamer.

00:33:16 ◼   ► Instead of just having to do a progressive download from the beginning.

00:33:19 ◼   ► And if you get a DAI splice in the middle, oh, well, it's people hated the way I was doing

00:33:23 ◼   ► it for the last six months.

00:33:24 ◼   ► So I figured, okay, I'll, I'll revert it.

00:33:26 ◼   ► But now the streaming is much like all those things are much better.

00:33:30 ◼   ► And I shipped this update last, I believe, Friday.

00:33:33 ◼   ► And so I thought, let me go check my app store reviews to see if they're going up.

00:33:40 ◼   ► And not only are they not going up, which is very disheartening, but I'm just seeing so many

00:33:46 ◼   ► reports of the biggest ones for me.

00:33:50 ◼   ► The biggest 26.0 bugs that impact me are the white on white buttons when reduced transparency

00:33:55 ◼   ► is enabled in dark mode.

00:33:56 ◼   ► Number one, by far.

00:33:57 ◼   ► I'm getting, I'm getting multiple of those per day through various channels and kind of

00:34:02 ◼   ► a distant second.

00:34:03 ◼   ► With 26.0, if you have a list in Swift UI slash a table view, if you have a list that

00:34:10 ◼   ► supports reordering, like my playlists, sometimes that will just stop reordering until you reboot

00:34:17 ◼   ► the phone.

00:34:19 ◼   ► I've seen this on overcast and it drives me batty, but I had a, I had a strong suspicion

00:34:24 ◼   ► that that was not your fault.

00:34:25 ◼   ► And so I'm glad I didn't complain to you about it.

00:34:27 ◼   ► It's an eye.

00:34:28 ◼   ► And I, I don't even know how it's possible that like, cause you know, if you like just

00:34:32 ◼   ► force quit overcast and then, you know, relaunch it, you've terminated the process.

00:34:37 ◼   ► And so it should theoretically wipe out any, you know, last ways that could possibly be

00:34:43 ◼   ► an overcast bug, but no, you have to reboot the entire phone to fix that one.

00:34:47 ◼   ► And so obviously like if that's the solution, it's not my bug.

00:34:52 ◼   ► So, uh, anyway, I, I cannot, I, I'm getting so frankly, I'm getting so worn down from so

00:35:02 ◼   ► much negative feedback and so many negative reviews.

00:35:06 ◼   ► So the point where like, I'm having a really hard time even, even looking at them anymore

00:35:11 ◼   ► without it ruining my day.

00:35:12 ◼   ► Um, and to have the additional burden of many of those things, not even being my fault and

00:35:20 ◼   ► being myself fairly powerless to fix them.

00:35:23 ◼   ► also, um, that's just, uh, uh, another huge, you know, burden multiplier on that.

00:35:30 ◼   ► Forgive the lack of eloquence in this topic, but like it's, it's a lot to deal with.

00:35:36 ◼   ► And so the sooner this, the sooner 26.1 comes out and gets widely installed, the better for

00:35:42 ◼   ► all of us for so many reasons.

00:35:44 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by Lisa.

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00:36:50 ◼   ► We have a mattress that we bought from a place that doesn't exist anymore here in Richmond.

00:36:54 ◼   ► And I thought I would never, ever, ever want to replace it.

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00:37:30 ◼   ► Thank you to Lisa for sponsoring the show.

00:37:32 ◼   ► Uh, all right.

00:37:37 ◼   ► We have some feedback with regard to the M5 Vision Pro.

00:37:40 ◼   ► We're also going to talk about it a little more later.

00:37:42 ◼   ► Um, a reliable source has told us that the M5 Vision Pro does indeed have the exact same

00:37:48 ◼   ► displays as the M2 Vision Pro.

00:37:49 ◼   ► The M5 Vision Pro renders 10% more pixels in the area where the user's focus, focusing,

00:37:55 ◼   ► this is your foveated rendering, uh, resulting in a sharper image with crisper text and more

00:37:59 ◼   ► detailed visuals.

00:38:00 ◼   ► I think, John, if anyone, you might have a little to add on that.

00:38:03 ◼   ► Nope.

00:38:03 ◼   ► That was just a question we had last week.

00:38:05 ◼   ► Are the displays the same?

00:38:06 ◼   ► They absolutely are.

00:38:07 ◼   ► Additionally, the M5 in the Vision Pro does indeed have the memory integrity enforcement,

00:38:12 ◼   ► which we talked about, I don't know, maybe five episodes ago, something like that.

00:38:15 ◼   ► Um, and we'll put it.

00:38:16 ◼   ► And that's the, this is a question I had, uh, about the M5 that I didn't see addressed anywhere

00:38:21 ◼   ► is does it have memory integrity enforcement?

00:38:23 ◼   ► And the reason I was interested in the answer, aside from just like wondering if it has the

00:38:26 ◼   ► same new security stuff, um, was because we were also debating whether the CPU cores in

00:38:33 ◼   ► the M5 are like derived from the ones that are in the current phone chips or last year's

00:38:39 ◼   ► phone chips.

00:38:39 ◼   ► And I'm like, well, last year's phone chips didn't have memory integrity enforcement.

00:38:42 ◼   ► Only the A19 and A19 Pro were announced with memory integrity enforcement.

00:38:47 ◼   ► So if the M5 does have memory integrity enforcement, that implies that it probably has CPU cores that

00:38:53 ◼   ► are derived from the A19 and the A19 Pro.

00:38:55 ◼   ► Righto.

00:38:56 ◼   ► Uh, and so that, that then concludes that, yeah, this is, this is from the A19.

00:39:01 ◼   ► Uh, yeah.

00:39:03 ◼   ► And we got that confirmed from the same reliable choices.

00:39:05 ◼   ► Basically the question is like, are these more closely related to the A18 or A19?

00:39:08 ◼   ► The answer is they are more closely related to the A19.

00:39:11 ◼   ► Now I haven't seen like die shots or functional areas or individual breakdowns.

00:39:15 ◼   ► So it's remains to be seen exactly how closely related the A19 and M5 CPU cores are.

00:39:21 ◼   ► But, uh, if they're going to be closer to one family than the other, they're closer to the

00:39:25 ◼   ► A19.

00:39:25 ◼   ► I don't know if that's a departure from what the M4 was or if they have been on, on, you

00:39:30 ◼   ► know, matched up with the phone year.

00:39:32 ◼   ► But either way, this is another thing in favor of the M5, that it has memory integrity

00:39:35 ◼   ► enforcement, that the cores are like the A19 cores.

00:39:38 ◼   ► So the M5 is a pretty good chip.

00:39:39 ◼   ► Yep.

00:39:40 ◼   ► All right.

00:39:41 ◼   ► And speaking of the M5, let's talk about the MacBook Pro.

00:39:44 ◼   ► Uh, there was a lot of brouhaha about the fact that Apple's not including a charger in

00:39:49 ◼   ► the EU and UK.

00:39:51 ◼   ► Uh, and Nick here writes in Ireland and France, the M5 MacBook Pro is a hundred, uh, almost

00:39:57 ◼   ► said pounds, a hundred euros cheaper than its predecessor and the adapters 65 euros, making

00:40:02 ◼   ► these new Macs 35 euros less expensive with a comparable configuration.

00:40:05 ◼   ► The same is true in each euro currency.

00:40:08 ◼   ► I checked Germany, Italy, and Spain all received a 100 euro price cut.

00:40:11 ◼   ► If you do not want an AC adapter and a 35 euro price cut, if you do, uh, Mac rumors, however,

00:40:17 ◼   ► notes that the UK model retains the same starting price as its predecessor.

00:40:20 ◼   ► There was some back and forth about whether Apple was planning price cuts on these models

00:40:24 ◼   ► anyway, in which case this is not a price cut because of the adapter, but it's a price

00:40:27 ◼   ► cut because of some currency thing or whatever.

00:40:28 ◼   ► But either way, uh, it's good news for people in the EU.

00:40:32 ◼   ► Uh, you can get a cheaper MacBook Pro, uh, whether you want an adapter or not.

00:40:37 ◼   ► And if, even if it doesn't come in the box, if you add one of those to your cart, the very

00:40:41 ◼   ► next screen you see shows you the adapter that they want you to buy and you can just add

00:40:44 ◼   ► that to cart immediately.

00:40:45 ◼   ► So it's not too much of a burden, uh, even during the checkout process, but yeah, save some

00:40:50 ◼   ► money.

00:40:50 ◼   ► Don't buy an adapter, but make sure you have an adapter that can charge a guru went off

00:40:54 ◼   ► on this, uh, this week of saying, if you let people buy their own adapter, they're going

00:40:57 ◼   ► to try to charge their, you know, MacBook Pro with a five watt, uh, phone adapter from 10

00:41:02 ◼   ► years ago.

00:41:02 ◼   ► Uh, don't do that to get a, get an adapter that is properly sized for your laptop.

00:41:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:06 ◼   ► This, I mean that, that honestly, that's the biggest argument against just not including

00:41:10 ◼   ► it in the box.

00:41:11 ◼   ► And I know there's, I know it's complicated with regulations and all this stuff, but like

00:41:15 ◼   ► that's the problem.

00:41:16 ◼   ► Like when you, when you make all the chargers the same, but they're not the same, uh, you

00:41:20 ◼   ► have negative outcomes like that.

00:41:22 ◼   ► And I think of course, most people are going to think any USB cable and charger is the same.

00:41:27 ◼   ► Um, you know, and so of course you're going to have this problem and including in the box

00:41:32 ◼   ► so far has done a really good job of minimizing this problem.

00:41:35 ◼   ► Now it's only going to make this problem worse.

00:41:37 ◼   ► Well, I, when they, when they ditched it, the, the adapter from the iPhone box, they're like,

00:41:41 ◼   ► Oh, that's not a big deal.

00:41:42 ◼   ► You can charge a phone with even the weakest adapter.

00:41:44 ◼   ► You can, but it will still go way slower.

00:41:46 ◼   ► If you're still using one of those tiny five watt bricks from years and years ago.

00:41:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:41:49 ◼   ► It'll charge your phone.

00:41:50 ◼   ► I'm like laptop where it just will fail to, you know, you'll outrun it by using it.

00:41:53 ◼   ► Right.

00:41:54 ◼   ► It will charge your phone, but you're really not getting the best phone charging experience.

00:41:58 ◼   ► Not to say you have to get the biggest, meanest adapter you can and charge your

00:42:00 ◼   ► phone as fast as possible because that's going to shorten your battery life if you care about

00:42:03 ◼   ► that.

00:42:03 ◼   ► But like you should get a, uh, a charger appropriately sized.

00:42:07 ◼   ► And again, I think if you go through Apple's checkout process, they will throw the correct

00:42:11 ◼   ► adapter in your face pretty readily.

00:42:13 ◼   ► If you buy it from a third party or Amazon, hopefully, you know, the recommended products

00:42:18 ◼   ► will bring it up.

00:42:19 ◼   ► But anyway, that's just the thing people have to learn how to deal with.

00:42:21 ◼   ► They have to learn, uh, what octane gas goes in their car or, uh, what voltage their

00:42:26 ◼   ► EV can charge at.

00:42:27 ◼   ► And they have to know what size filters go into their air handle, uh, air handlers in

00:42:32 ◼   ► the basement.

00:42:33 ◼   ► Uh, and they also have to learn which chargers will charge their electronic products both

00:42:38 ◼   ► adequately and as fast as they want.

00:42:40 ◼   ► All right.

00:42:41 ◼   ► Uh, we have, uh, or I guess I have a lot of reading to do.

00:42:45 ◼   ► So with regard to last week's overtime segment about Alexa plus, we briefly talked about

00:42:52 ◼   ► or semi-briefly talked about non-determinism in LLMs and Heiko Hotz writes, I'm an AI engineer

00:42:58 ◼   ► at Google cloud.

00:42:59 ◼   ► I wanted to quickly provide some additional insight into the non-determinism of LLMs.

00:43:02 ◼   ► As John described, a temperature of zero should theoretically always choose the most likely

00:43:06 ◼   ► next token.

00:43:07 ◼   ► John was saying that engineers would never choose the setting because having the temperature

00:43:10 ◼   ► greater than zero is what makes these models quote unquote magical.

00:43:13 ◼   ► This is true for chat GPT, yes, because that is a chatbot application built on top of LLMs.

00:43:18 ◼   ► Same goes for Gemini, the chat and the chatbot app.

00:43:21 ◼   ► Uh, there are many different models plus classifier models, plus safety guardrail models and more

00:43:25 ◼   ► that work together to create an application.

00:43:27 ◼   ► That is not the case in enterprise applications.

00:43:29 ◼   ► Also enterprise apps are not usually made up of many different models that interact with

00:43:32 ◼   ► each other.

00:43:33 ◼   ► Enterprises, including the Alexa team, don't use these chatbot style applications.

00:43:37 ◼   ► They use the underlying LLM APIs directly with a lot more control over the inference parameters,

00:43:40 ◼   ► including temperature.

00:43:42 ◼   ► And temperature equals zero is a very common setting for many enterprise applications.

00:43:45 ◼   ► Basically, almost any app that doesn't rely on the creativity, if you will, of LLMs will

00:43:50 ◼   ► use a temperature of zero in order to get as close to a deterministic response as possible.

00:43:54 ◼   ► For example, when I worked with a customer who used the vision capabilities of LLMs to scan,

00:43:58 ◼   ► make sense of, and extract key data from invoices.

00:44:00 ◼   ► And you better believe that we put the temperature all the way down to zero.

00:44:04 ◼   ► By the way, it's easy.

00:44:05 ◼   ► There's an easy way for you to try this out.

00:44:07 ◼   ► You can go to, and we'll put a link in the show notes, the AI studio at Google, and you can play

00:44:10 ◼   ► with this.

00:44:10 ◼   ► And it provides a familiar chat interface, but the direct access to the model, i.e. not

00:44:15 ◼   ► via a chatbot, and control over temperature and other inference parameters.

00:44:19 ◼   ► You can get all that at this AI studio thing.

00:44:23 ◼   ► So if enterprise apps use a temperature equals zero, like Alexa and Alexa Plus most likely

00:44:30 ◼   ► does, and if temperature equals zero, they should theoretically lead to always choosing the most

00:44:34 ◼   ► likely next token.

00:44:35 ◼   ► So why do we still get non-deterministic behaviors from an LLM?

00:44:37 ◼   ► The answer is hardware-level non-determinism.

00:44:41 ◼   ► I'm sorry, what?

00:44:42 ◼   ► For efficiency reasons, requested LLMs are dynamically batched with dozens of other user requests to

00:44:47 ◼   ► be processed at once.

00:44:48 ◼   ► This batch is then run in parallel across thousands of GPU cores.

00:44:52 ◼   ► Here's the problem.

00:44:54 ◼   ► Floating point math on a GPU is not associative.

00:44:57 ◼   ► This means that if you did, you know, A plus B, in parentheses, plus C, that doesn't exactly

00:45:03 ◼   ► equal A plus B plus C due to minuscule rounding differences.

00:45:08 ◼   ► Hey, I'm doing the best with what John has asked me to read.

00:45:10 ◼   ► I deserve a medal for this, gentlemen.

00:45:12 ◼   ► You do.

00:45:12 ◼   ► I hope that you would pronounce it that way.

00:45:14 ◼   ► That's how I read it when I see that.

00:45:15 ◼   ► I see A plus B plus C versus A plus B plus C.

00:45:19 ◼   ► No, to be clear, Casey, you're doing a great job.

00:45:22 ◼   ► The reality of this is crazy.

00:45:24 ◼   ► Yeah, well, you know, a floating point on computers, it's a thing.

00:45:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:28 ◼   ► So continuing with what was written, the specific order of these operations chart changes based

00:45:35 ◼   ► on the total batch size and server load at that instant.

00:45:37 ◼   ► To be efficient, LLM providers dynamically batch requests in different sizes.

00:45:40 ◼   ► So a given query sometimes ends up with a batch of 8 requests, sometimes a batch of 64, etc.

00:45:44 ◼   ► So the GPU doesn't run the same code for a batch of 8 and a batch of 64.

00:45:50 ◼   ► It uses different low-level computational strategies called kernels that are hyper-optimized for

00:45:56 ◼   ► specific batch sizes and data shapes to maximize speed.

00:45:58 ◼   ► An optimization for a small batch might sum the parallel computations in one order.

00:46:02 ◼   ► For example, A plus B plus C plus D, while an optimization for a large batch might use a

00:46:08 ◼   ► different faster reduction strategy that sums them in another order.

00:46:10 ◼   ► For example, A plus B plus C plus D.

00:46:12 ◼   ► So even at temperature zero, if two tokens have almost identical scores, this tiny unpredictable

00:46:17 ◼   ► hardware variance can be enough to flip the winning token.

00:46:19 ◼   ► And because of the way LLM's next token prediction system works, once a token changes, the entire

00:46:23 ◼   ► rest of the response diverges.

00:46:24 ◼   ► A post from Mira Murati's new company, she's the former CTO of OpenAI, dives even deeper into

00:46:29 ◼   ► this.

00:46:30 ◼   ► We'll link that in the show notes.

00:46:31 ◼   ► So this is fascinating.

00:46:32 ◼   ► So the temperature equals zero for enterprise application, that makes sense to me.

00:46:35 ◼   ► But then going on to say, and by the way, temperature equals zero doesn't actually

00:46:38 ◼   ► produce something deterministic because the hardware is perturbing it.

00:46:43 ◼   ► And you get these variations.

00:46:44 ◼   ► And you know, there's any kind of variation in this.

00:46:47 ◼   ► Then you just go off in an entirely new direction.

00:46:50 ◼   ► Now that hardware problem is solvable.

00:46:52 ◼   ► Like you can read this and say, oh, I know how to solve it.

00:46:54 ◼   ► Just don't do that thing in different batch sizes.

00:46:56 ◼   ► And don't do, you know, don't do different parentheses around the things.

00:46:59 ◼   ► Yeah, you can't make it deterministic.

00:47:01 ◼   ► But it seems like the problem is they're not doing these batch sizes for the hell of

00:47:05 ◼   ► it.

00:47:05 ◼   ► They're trying mightily to get the results fast and inexpensively by doing something that's

00:47:10 ◼   ► efficient.

00:47:10 ◼   ► And these things are unavoidable with the way floating point approximations work in computers.

00:47:15 ◼   ► You could make a algorithm or, you know, whatever.

00:47:19 ◼   ► You could have a back end that does things in a deterministic manner at the cost of efficiency.

00:47:24 ◼   ► Maybe it's a massive cost of efficiency.

00:47:25 ◼   ► Maybe it's not feasible, but it's good to know that it's there.

00:47:27 ◼   ► But anyway, I found this feedback very interesting, both because of the hardware level of non-determinism

00:47:32 ◼   ► and the idea that the creativity that is useful in chat GPT is not desired in other applications.

00:47:40 ◼   ► I feel like the downside, though, for that with temperature equals zero for, you know, something

00:47:46 ◼   ► like Alexa or whatever, is that if it does the wrong thing with a given input, it's always

00:47:53 ◼   ► going to do the wrong thing, you know, if they make it deterministic, like there is no

00:47:57 ◼   ► hope of it getting better.

00:47:58 ◼   ► And I'm not sure which is worse, something that like doggedly refuses to understand what

00:48:03 ◼   ► you're saying or something that sometimes understands what you're saying and sometimes doesn't.

00:48:07 ◼   ► Anyway, thanks a lot for that feedback.

00:48:11 ◼   ► I thought this was really interesting.

00:48:12 ◼   ► And I hope someone works on solving these problems because it looks like everybody who has tried

00:48:17 ◼   ► to make their voice assistant smarter by using LLMs has not yet succeeded.

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00:50:16 ◼   ► We have a first for ATP and I'm saying that non-sarcastically.

00:50:22 ◼   ► I really mean it.

00:50:23 ◼   ► Uh, for the first time ever, I got some press review hardware and I'm really excited about

00:50:30 ◼   ► it.

00:50:30 ◼   ► Congratulations.

00:50:30 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:50:31 ◼   ► I have in my house an M5 Vision Pro and, uh, I'm really excited about it.

00:50:38 ◼   ► And this arrived a little while ago and, you know, there was an embargo until yesterday.

00:50:42 ◼   ► Um, so I couldn't and shouldn't have talked about it until basically now.

00:50:47 ◼   ► And I got to tell you, it's really nice.

00:50:50 ◼   ► Um, we did, John had asked me to do some tests, which I'd like you to talk about and I'll talk

00:50:55 ◼   ► about the results.

00:50:56 ◼   ► Um, but the initial impressions that I got, uh, the box, the unboxing process is basically

00:51:01 ◼   ► the same.

00:51:01 ◼   ► Um, the dual knit headband or whatever they call it, or the dual knit band is so much nicer.

00:51:09 ◼   ► It is incredible.

00:51:11 ◼   ► The difference that makes.

00:51:13 ◼   ► So I had typically used the single knit band that goes around the back of your head and

00:51:18 ◼   ► you tighten it in.

00:51:19 ◼   ► So you're basically squeezing your head in the front and the back with the very comfortable

00:51:23 ◼   ► thing in the back and then the light seal and, and, uh, guard thing or whatever they call

00:51:27 ◼   ► it in the front.

00:51:28 ◼   ► Um, and this was fine for, you know, half an hour of use or something like that, but very

00:51:34 ◼   ► quickly became not very comfortable.

00:51:37 ◼   ► And Apple includes a really clunky, like two or did include a really clunky, um, behind

00:51:43 ◼   ► the head and above the head, uh, Velcro situation.

00:51:45 ◼   ► I forget what that was called, uh, with the M2, uh, vision pro.

00:51:49 ◼   ► And I didn't really ever like that.

00:51:51 ◼   ► And then Belkin, like, I don't know, six months ago came out with a thing that worked in concert

00:51:56 ◼   ► with the single knit band around the back.

00:51:59 ◼   ► And then there was like a Velcro thing across the top and that was nice.

00:52:03 ◼   ► And I, I really liked that for the most part, but there were a couple of problems.

00:52:06 ◼   ► Number one, because of the way it mounted on the, the little, um, straps on the side, uh,

00:52:12 ◼   ► you couldn't use the, the developer, uh, strap with it.

00:52:15 ◼   ► And we're going to talk more about that in a minute.

00:52:16 ◼   ► Uh, and secondly, it was Velcro at the top.

00:52:19 ◼   ► So it was a little fiddly.

00:52:20 ◼   ► Um, and I didn't, I didn't love that either.

00:52:23 ◼   ► So, um, the new M5 vision pro has this dual knit band and the way it works is there's the

00:52:28 ◼   ► same thing you're used to in the back with a catch.

00:52:30 ◼   ► And I'll explain that in a second.

00:52:31 ◼   ► And, and basically a duplicate of that across the top.

00:52:34 ◼   ► And, and the way it works is there's only one little dial, kind of like a humongous digital

00:52:38 ◼   ► crown.

00:52:38 ◼   ► That's not very digital on the side.

00:52:40 ◼   ► And like a mechanical watch, Marco, you, you twist it to adjust the back and then you pop

00:52:46 ◼   ► it out and then twist it to, to adjust the top.

00:52:49 ◼   ► It's really, really trick and clever and really well done.

00:52:52 ◼   ► And it's incredibly, incredibly comfortable.

00:52:56 ◼   ► I went to the library this morning and booked a little study room.

00:52:58 ◼   ► So I wasn't out in the masses and worked with it for like 90 minutes and it was great.

00:53:02 ◼   ► It really was incredibly comfortable.

00:53:04 ◼   ► And I think part of the reason for that is there's actually a little tungsten like strips

00:53:08 ◼   ► or whatever in the back in the, in the, the piece that goes behind your head to counterweight

00:53:13 ◼   ► all the weight that's on the front of your head.

00:53:15 ◼   ► And it really does even things out nicely.

00:53:17 ◼   ► It's not flawless of course, but it even, evens things out pretty well.

00:53:21 ◼   ► And by the way, that's why everyone was losing their minds about the vision pro being heavier.

00:53:24 ◼   ► Now it's not actually have the, the unit itself is not actually heavier.

00:53:28 ◼   ► And in fact, I did compare and I took a little kitchen, um, uh, kitchen, uh, scale.

00:53:34 ◼   ► So it's not the most accurate thing in the world, but I weighed both the M2 and

00:53:38 ◼   ► the, uh, in the M5 vision pro with everything off of it.

00:53:41 ◼   ► I mean, literally it was just the glass hardware, no straps, no nothing.

00:53:44 ◼   ► And it was the exact same weight.

00:53:45 ◼   ► So, um, anyways, the new, the new strap is really great.

00:53:49 ◼   ► Uh, with regard to the visuals, John, can you explain the genuinely extremely clever test

00:53:56 ◼   ► you asked me to perform?

00:53:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:53:58 ◼   ► So I think this is after we knew that the screens were the same, but the whole point is

00:54:02 ◼   ► that it renders 10% more pixels in the area that you're looking at.

00:54:04 ◼   ► So what does that mean?

00:54:06 ◼   ► Is that discernible?

00:54:07 ◼   ► Because obviously it's, you know, literally kind of fuzzy because it's, you know, just

00:54:10 ◼   ► it's the foveated rendering where it renders lots of pixels, uh, where you're looking and

00:54:15 ◼   ► renders fewer elsewhere.

00:54:16 ◼   ► And so if you were ever to like capture the image that is on the screens, what you would

00:54:20 ◼   ► see is a bunch of blurry stuff surrounding a clear area where whoever is wearing the thing

00:54:26 ◼   ► is looking and they're using more pixels in that area.

00:54:29 ◼   ► So that that is potentially clear or not, I don't, people saying like, Oh, we use, was

00:54:33 ◼   ► the M two one using non-native scaling, like a monitor that is, you know, rendering an image

00:54:38 ◼   ► that is smaller than the thing.

00:54:39 ◼   ► And then it's scaling it up.

00:54:40 ◼   ► I'm not sure that's the right way to think about this because obviously what the vision

00:54:46 ◼   ► pro renders, uh, you know, what buffer it renders before it sends it to the screen is a

00:54:52 ◼   ► weird mishmash of a bunch of stuff.

00:54:53 ◼   ► The areas that are out of focus clearly have less information, but the area that is in focus

00:54:58 ◼   ► might actually, even on the M two one have more information than can fit on the pixels

00:55:02 ◼   ► of the screen.

00:55:03 ◼   ► And they end up scaling it down.

00:55:05 ◼   ► Uh, you know, if you get like a really big image and you scale it down, you're not losing

00:55:09 ◼   ► any information, uh, it's just squishing it into the available space.

00:55:12 ◼   ► So maybe it is putting more pixels in and then scaling it down.

00:55:16 ◼   ► And maybe it's above native and dead center, but exactly native.

00:55:20 ◼   ► When you go out a little bit, a few degrees and then less than native when you go out

00:55:23 ◼   ► and obviously the edges are way less than native because it's all blurry.

00:55:25 ◼   ► Uh, but the question is, so can you see that?

00:55:28 ◼   ► Because I feel like tech spec wise, if this is, you know, other than it having a faster

00:55:33 ◼   ► processor, which you can talk about in a bit about how that manifests, the screens are

00:55:36 ◼   ► the same, but they're using the power of the better processor to render more pixels.

00:55:40 ◼   ► Does that change the experience?

00:55:41 ◼   ► How are you supposed to tell this?

00:55:42 ◼   ► And my idea was put an eye chart on the wall than the virtual wall, not the actual wall.

00:55:48 ◼   ► Like, so we're not going to use pass through, put, put like a, an eye chart.

00:55:51 ◼   ► Like I found a PDF of an eye chart.

00:55:53 ◼   ► So there's no, it's vector graphics.

00:55:55 ◼   ► There's no, you know, pixels in it.

00:55:57 ◼   ► Stick that on the wall somehow with vision pro magic and then walk backwards and look at

00:56:04 ◼   ► the eye chart with the M5 vision pro.

00:56:06 ◼   ► And then take that off, stay in the same spot and put on the M2 vision pro and look at the

00:56:10 ◼   ► same thing and look at like the, what's the smallest line you can read?

00:56:13 ◼   ► Uh, you know, my idea was to move back far enough so that you couldn't read the bottom

00:56:17 ◼   ► line in one, but could read it in the other.

00:56:20 ◼   ► But, uh, there were some problems with that approach.

00:56:22 ◼   ► Well, anyway, Casey, how did that go?

00:56:23 ◼   ► How did you feel that the difference was with those 10% more pixels?

00:56:27 ◼   ► So I think my actual thesis about the M5 vision pro is I guess it's better.

00:56:34 ◼   ► And I don't mean that in a, like in a jerky way, it's just nothing that I experienced.

00:56:39 ◼   ► I can say is like night and day better, including the display.

00:56:42 ◼   ► So I did try John's genuinely clever idea.

00:56:45 ◼   ► I really don't want to come across like, I didn't think it was a good idea.

00:56:48 ◼   ► It really was a great idea.

00:56:49 ◼   ► And I tried that, but the problem with the vision pro is that once you get more than about

00:56:53 ◼   ► six to 10 real world feet away, so that's like, you know, two to three meters away,

00:56:58 ◼   ► it will disappear whatever you're walking away from, because as far as it's concerned,

00:57:03 ◼   ► it's too far away.

00:57:03 ◼   ► So I did the best I could.

00:57:05 ◼   ► And I would say that like, I could take maybe a half a step close.

00:57:09 ◼   ► I could get a half a step closer, or I guess I should say further away actually with the

00:57:14 ◼   ► M5 vision pro, but we're talking like a foot, you know, like a third of a meter.

00:57:18 ◼   ► It really wasn't that much of a difference.

00:57:20 ◼   ► Additionally, I did do a fair, a little bit of Mac virtual display back and forth between

00:57:25 ◼   ► the two.

00:57:25 ◼   ► Um, I did not do that today at the library and I'll explain why a little bit later, but,

00:57:29 ◼   ► um, I did do a little bit of Mac virtual display and here again, I thought it was better,

00:57:34 ◼   ► but certainly not night and day better.

00:57:36 ◼   ► And if I wasn't like really, really concentrating on it, I don't know that I really would have

00:57:40 ◼   ► noticed the difference in terms of display fidelity.

00:57:43 ◼   ► Now, with that said, I will repeat for the 900th time.

00:57:47 ◼   ► My eyes are not great.

00:57:48 ◼   ► I do wear hard contact lenses because I have a weird eye disease called keratoconus.

00:57:51 ◼   ► And the only way to get decent vision is with hard contacts.

00:57:54 ◼   ► Apple explicitly says that the vision pro does not work with hard contacts.

00:57:59 ◼   ► And I have so far had a perfectly fine experience with it, but consider your source that my eyes

00:58:04 ◼   ► are not great.

00:58:05 ◼   ► And I'm telling you, I can't really see the difference.

00:58:07 ◼   ► You know, this is like a person who can't hear saying, oh, well, you know, the, the,

00:58:10 ◼   ► the super duper compressed MP3 sounds no different to me.

00:58:13 ◼   ► Um, consider your source with regard to the chip.

00:58:16 ◼   ► Um, I will say that there were a couple of places where I definitely noticed that it was

00:58:21 ◼   ► faster.

00:58:21 ◼   ► Startup is real fast.

00:58:23 ◼   ► It's, I feel, I didn't have the presence of mind to do a test between the two devices.

00:58:28 ◼   ► Um, but the M5 definitely starts up faster.

00:58:32 ◼   ► And the other thing that it was very quick about was doing the persona where you scan your,

00:58:36 ◼   ► your, your face and whatnot, and, and you generate a persona.

00:58:40 ◼   ► Um, and that was also very, very quick as compared to the M2, but in every other way,

00:58:46 ◼   ► it was mostly the same.

00:58:48 ◼   ► I, I can't say enough good things about the dual knit band, which is available for sale

00:58:53 ◼   ► and compatible with the M2 vision pro it's only a hundred dollars, which everything in vision

00:58:59 ◼   ► pro land.

00:58:59 ◼   ► It's like a wedding or a newborn, everything is 10 X what you think it should cost.

00:59:03 ◼   ► And the, and the dual knit band at a hundred bucks is genuinely a steal.

00:59:07 ◼   ► And I, I will almost surely be getting one for my vision pro whenever I have to return

00:59:11 ◼   ► this PR unit.

00:59:13 ◼   ► And, uh, just a quick touch of inside baseball, uh, the PR demo, like briefing that we got,

00:59:18 ◼   ► they actually did in the vision pro in, uh, in, in, uh, uh, FaceTime on Mount hood, which

00:59:25 ◼   ► was super duper cool.

00:59:26 ◼   ► And I don't think I can say too much about, you know, what had happened during that briefing,

00:59:29 ◼   ► but it was really, really neat to be a part of that rather than just looking at a WebEx

00:59:34 ◼   ► screen, which is how they typically do it.

00:59:36 ◼   ► Um, any questions about that?

00:59:38 ◼   ► We need to talk about the new developer strap here in a moment, but any questions specifically

00:59:41 ◼   ► about the M5 before I talk developer strap, did you notice the 120 Hertz pass through?

00:59:46 ◼   ► No, not a bit.

00:59:47 ◼   ► I mean, it was a hundred, it was up to a hundred before and now it's up to 120.

00:59:50 ◼   ► So again, not a huge difference, but yeah, I mean, as I said, everything with the M5 vision

00:59:55 ◼   ► pro is better, but not, not like I was going to say demonstrably, that's not the word I'm

01:00:01 ◼   ► looking for, but not like emphatically better.

01:00:04 ◼   ► It's just a touch better and that's not a bad thing.

01:00:07 ◼   ► And I'm glad I know we all like to snark on Apple and snark on the vision pro, but I think

01:00:12 ◼   ► of the three of us, I'm clearly the most enthusiastic about it.

01:00:14 ◼   ► And again, every time I put this darn thing on, I am amazed by it.

01:00:18 ◼   ► I really, truly am.

01:00:19 ◼   ► I'm not blowing smoke.

01:00:20 ◼   ► I really, really am.

01:00:21 ◼   ► And like using it in the library today, I had a giant computer screen quote unquote attached

01:00:28 ◼   ► to my little dinky 14 inch MacBook pro.

01:00:30 ◼   ► Like it is really incredible.

01:00:33 ◼   ► That being said, I put myself in a little study room.

01:00:36 ◼   ► So nobody would see me with my silly face computer on, but it really, really is incredible.

01:00:41 ◼   ► And so it's such a weird product because I genuinely really do love it.

01:00:47 ◼   ► And yet I don't use it all that often.

01:00:51 ◼   ► And it's so frustrating because I do love it so much, but I don't have the occasion to put

01:00:56 ◼   ► it on all that often.

01:00:57 ◼   ► And, and it's, it's tough because I, on the one side, I want to say, you know, everyone

01:01:02 ◼   ► should have one.

01:01:03 ◼   ► They're incredible, which they are incredible.

01:01:05 ◼   ► And I don't know if I should say everyone should have one.

01:01:07 ◼   ► And at $3,500, like arguably not a lot of people should have one.

01:01:12 ◼   ► It's so tough, but man, if you have the means, I highly suggest picking one up.

01:01:17 ◼   ► That's a reference, John, because they are incredible.

01:01:19 ◼   ► And, and being able to, um, and being able to see like the immersive media, admittedly,

01:01:26 ◼   ► there is not a ton of it, but there's a lot more than there used to be.

01:01:29 ◼   ► And there's going to be more coming.

01:01:30 ◼   ► They're getting a better rhythm with that.

01:01:32 ◼   ► The immersive media is great.

01:01:34 ◼   ► So much of it is so great.

01:01:36 ◼   ► And you know what?

01:01:36 ◼   ► I'd like to actually table the developer strap discussion.

01:01:39 ◼   ► Let's come back around to that.

01:01:40 ◼   ► Um, I, I, I realized that we had an opportunity with me having a long-term loan of this M5 Vision

01:01:47 ◼   ► Pro.

01:01:48 ◼   ► So we colluded and decided that, John, why don't you take a long-term loan of my actual purchase

01:01:55 ◼   ► paid for with my own money, M2 Vision Pro.

01:01:57 ◼   ► And so, John, as of what, Saturday or Monday, sometime recently, you now have a Vision Pro

01:02:03 ◼   ► in the house for the next couple of months.

01:02:04 ◼   ► I have your Vision Pro.

01:02:06 ◼   ► So yeah, you did have both the M2 and the M5 one for a while, but then you sent me the

01:02:10 ◼   ► M2 one.

01:02:10 ◼   ► So this is probably the only way a Vision Pro was going to show up in my house.

01:02:14 ◼   ► Is this the only situation where anybody has ever had an extra Vision Pro?

01:02:18 ◼   ► It very well could be.

01:02:20 ◼   ► Maybe a lot of people have them in their closets.

01:02:22 ◼   ► They may consider their one and only one to be an extra Vision Pro.

01:02:25 ◼   ► Oh, sick burn.

01:02:26 ◼   ► But anyway, to briefly interject, this is why I didn't do as many side-to-side comparisons

01:02:31 ◼   ► as I otherwise would have, is because I really wanted to get John a copy of it.

01:02:35 ◼   ► I wanted to get him my M2 Vision Pro as quickly as possible.

01:02:38 ◼   ► So my apologies to the listeners, genuinely, that I didn't do more side-to-side comparisons,

01:02:42 ◼   ► but I did enough to get the gist.

01:02:43 ◼   ► And then I shipped, John, my, which is sort of kind of your Vision Pro.

01:02:47 ◼   ► So tell me, John, what is your M2 Vision Pro experience in 2025?

01:02:51 ◼   ► Yeah, so I did do the in-store demo back when this thing first came out.

01:02:55 ◼   ► And that's all my only experience with the Vision Pro is that demo.

01:02:58 ◼   ► And, you know, I've talked about it on a past episode.

01:03:01 ◼   ► You can go back and listen to that.

01:03:03 ◼   ► I was very impressed by the, you know, the technology.

01:03:07 ◼   ► It didn't make me feel like I wanted to get one, but doing the demo made the product much

01:03:13 ◼   ► more attractive to me than it was before doing the demo.

01:03:18 ◼   ► So in that respect, the demo was a plus for the product.

01:03:21 ◼   ► Now having one in the actual house with me and being able to use it to do real things gives

01:03:25 ◼   ► me some more ideas about what it's like to actually own and use one of these things.

01:03:30 ◼   ► So just to comment on the dual knit band, I do have a dual knit band with this one as

01:03:33 ◼   ► well.

01:03:34 ◼   ► And I'll echo Casey's sentiment.

01:03:36 ◼   ► So I only wore it for a half an hour in the demo and it was with the solo band thing.

01:03:40 ◼   ► And even just in that half an hour demo, it was uncomfortable because with the solo knit,

01:03:45 ◼   ► it's just on the back of your head.

01:03:47 ◼   ► So the only way it has to keep that thing on your face is to press it against your face,

01:03:52 ◼   ► to press it against your forehead, your cheeks, your like, because that's the only place

01:03:56 ◼   ► the band is.

01:03:56 ◼   ► The band is pulling it towards you.

01:03:57 ◼   ► There's one band in the back.

01:03:58 ◼   ► And if you don't pull it hard enough, it will start to slide down your nose or whatever.

01:04:03 ◼   ► And if you pull it too hard, you get a big red mark on your forehead.

01:04:06 ◼   ► The dual knit band, as Casey pointed out, is really smart in the way it works in that,

01:04:11 ◼   ► yes, it's got a band on top and on the back.

01:04:13 ◼   ► But the other thing to know about this is that the way the band attaches to the Vision Pro

01:04:18 ◼   ► is through a rigid vertical piece of metal thing.

01:04:22 ◼   ► So the band can't twist on the Vision Pro.

01:04:25 ◼   ► Like the band is fixed where it is.

01:04:27 ◼   ► And this allows those tungsten weights that Casey mentioned that are in the back of the

01:04:31 ◼   ► band.

01:04:31 ◼   ► It's like, well, why are you putting more weight into the Vision Pro?

01:04:33 ◼   ► What the heck is that weight even doing?

01:04:35 ◼   ► The way it acts as a counterbalance is because the top strap acts as kind of like a fulcrum,

01:04:40 ◼   ► like on a seesaw.

01:04:41 ◼   ► And so the weight on the back causes the thing on the front of your face to tilt up.

01:04:46 ◼   ► So it doesn't press against your cheeks as much.

01:04:48 ◼   ► And so you don't have to pull it against your face so much.

01:04:51 ◼   ► There's the adjustment of like the top versus the back strap.

01:04:54 ◼   ► I don't know why they just didn't do one dial on one side, one dial on the other.

01:04:57 ◼   ► But it is very clever to have one dial on one side with the pull out and back end thing.

01:05:00 ◼   ► But you can adjust the top thing to lift the glasses up so they're not squishing your cheeks.

01:05:05 ◼   ► And then you can loosen the back one so it's not pushing the thing against your face.

01:05:09 ◼   ► So much more comfortable.

01:05:11 ◼   ► Like this band is, I never tried any of the hacks with the multiple bands, but this is

01:05:16 ◼   ► a really well-realized band for, is it exactly the same price as the Solo one is slash was?

01:05:21 ◼   ► I think, but I am not sure.

01:05:23 ◼   ► It's, it's a, this, not that, you know, this, the product has a lot of problems we've talked

01:05:29 ◼   ► about at length, but the problem of a quick to put on easy to adjust comfortable strap.

01:05:35 ◼   ► I feel like this solves the problem amazingly well.

01:05:37 ◼   ► And the reason I said that is because this thing is heavy.

01:05:40 ◼   ► I know I wore it for a half an hour demo, but when you actually have the thing in your

01:05:44 ◼   ► house and use it for more than a half an hour, the weight becomes way more apparent.

01:05:50 ◼   ► And, you know, you hear people talk about it and they're like, oh, it's heavy, blah, blah,

01:05:53 ◼   ► blah, blah, blah.

01:05:53 ◼   ► There's nothing like wearing it on your face for two hours to be like, okay, this thing

01:05:56 ◼   ► is heavy.

01:05:57 ◼   ► Even with the amazing new strap, this thing is heavy.

01:06:00 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:06:01 ◼   ► They would have made it lighter if they could have.

01:06:02 ◼   ► Maybe if they didn't make the frame out of the metal, maybe it didn't have glass in the

01:06:05 ◼   ► front or whatever.

01:06:06 ◼   ► I continue to be sad about the delay slash possible cancellation of the lighter version of

01:06:10 ◼   ► this because it really needs to be lighter.

01:06:11 ◼   ► And yes, by the way, we all know that Apple, that Samsung just announced their Vision Pro competitor

01:06:16 ◼   ► for like 1800 bucks with the same resolution screens and yada, yada.

01:06:19 ◼   ► I haven't read too much about it, but just wanted to put that out there.

01:06:21 ◼   ► We know that exists.

01:06:22 ◼   ► Apple should be feeling the heat because they haven't really updated the products in two

01:06:26 ◼   ► years except for to add an M5 to it.

01:06:28 ◼   ► Anyway, I did try Mac virtual display, which is the thing I asked to do during the demo,

01:06:33 ◼   ► but they didn't let me because they have sort of a canned demo in the store.

01:06:36 ◼   ► But now I've got it at home.

01:06:37 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, I had it on in front of my Mac and I'm like, oh, I'm going to probably have

01:06:41 ◼   ► to go over to one of the computers because surely this doesn't work with Intel.

01:06:44 ◼   ► It does.

01:06:44 ◼   ► Are you surprised?

01:06:46 ◼   ► I was.

01:06:46 ◼   ► Yeah, actually.

01:06:47 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:06:48 ◼   ► I was like, what the hell?

01:06:49 ◼   ► Because, you know, Mac virtual display.

01:06:51 ◼   ► It's like, oh, it's that one.

01:06:52 ◼   ► Anyway, I did Mac virtual display with my pro display XDR.

01:06:56 ◼   ► And what Mac virtual display does, if I had to sum it up in one sentence, is it un-retina

01:07:01 ◼   ► is my display.

01:07:01 ◼   ► I have a huge expensive retina display and it's like, but what if your display wasn't retina?

01:07:07 ◼   ► Would you like that?

01:07:07 ◼   ► And the answer is no, not like that.

01:07:10 ◼   ► I mean, it's amazing that it works.

01:07:15 ◼   ► And if you're on a train or an airplane seat or in some confined place where you can't

01:07:20 ◼   ► have or on the road and you can't have a pro display XDR, it's better than looking

01:07:24 ◼   ► at a tiny laptop screen.

01:07:26 ◼   ► But if you are near your computer, you do not want to do Mac virtual display because

01:07:32 ◼   ► I could like, it's just the actual display is so much sharper than Mac virtual display.

01:07:38 ◼   ► And maybe it's the resolution of the screens.

01:07:41 ◼   ► We talked about this, about the pixels per degree and everything and how it's not, it doesn't

01:07:44 ◼   ► match up with the retina.

01:07:45 ◼   ► Like it's just a technical limitation.

01:07:46 ◼   ► It's not the ideal application of this to use Mac virtual display with your computer right

01:07:52 ◼   ► in front of you.

01:07:53 ◼   ► It's better to take the headset off and look at your screen because that's much better.

01:07:56 ◼   ► So I was not a fan of Mac virtual display.

01:07:59 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:00 ◼   ► Can I just say, I'm so glad that you had that impression because I had that same impression

01:08:07 ◼   ► and everyone last year told me like, it looks great to me.

01:08:11 ◼   ► It looks perfectly sharp to me.

01:08:12 ◼   ► I'm like, it does not.

01:08:14 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:14 ◼   ► Well, so like the, like I said, when you talked about it, the only demo I got in the store

01:08:17 ◼   ► was let's use like native Safari inside vision pro.

01:08:20 ◼   ► And that I think is reasonable.

01:08:22 ◼   ► But the problem with Mac virtual display is I can see the real display like right there.

01:08:27 ◼   ► It's the AB comparisons real easy.

01:08:29 ◼   ► Here's what it looks like inside the headset.

01:08:31 ◼   ► Here's what it looks like outside.

01:08:33 ◼   ► This is supposed to be the same screen in the same resolution.

01:08:35 ◼   ► And it's, it's a big difference.

01:08:37 ◼   ► It's not like it's unreadable.

01:08:38 ◼   ► I think it's fine.

01:08:39 ◼   ► Like I've used non-retina screens for my entire life until very recently.

01:08:42 ◼   ► It's fine.

01:08:43 ◼   ► Like it's totally usable.

01:08:44 ◼   ► It's good.

01:08:44 ◼   ► Like it's amazing that it works.

01:08:45 ◼   ► It's cool that it curves around you.

01:08:46 ◼   ► Like everything about it is great, but given the choice, I'd rather look at the actual screen.

01:08:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:08:52 ◼   ► Sure.

01:08:52 ◼   ► I mean, given the choice, I would also rather look at an actual screen, but I, I didn't

01:08:56 ◼   ► find it near in, in don't find it near as egregious as the two of you seem to.

01:09:01 ◼   ► But again, I mean, I consider your source.

01:09:03 ◼   ► Here's the thing.

01:09:04 ◼   ► Like it's not, it's not obvious that you should prefer the real thing because if it was just

01:09:08 ◼   ► as sharp, I might prefer the virtual thing because it's so much more flexible.

01:09:11 ◼   ► You can put it wherever you want.

01:09:12 ◼   ► You can make it any size.

01:09:13 ◼   ► It's subtly curves around you.

01:09:14 ◼   ► I can imagine a thing where you could adjust the curvature and like, like there, there

01:09:18 ◼   ► are potential advantages for having a display in a virtual world than having a physical one.

01:09:22 ◼   ► It's just that the, the, the displays inside the vision power don't currently have enough

01:09:26 ◼   ► pixel density to compete with an actual XDR, which again, we did, we mathed out back when

01:09:32 ◼   ► this thing first came out, but just, I'm just reiterating that I've experienced it in person

01:09:35 ◼   ► and it is the math bears out in real life.

01:09:38 ◼   ► Um, one of the things I was surprised about, again, having used it over a long period of time

01:09:42 ◼   ► in various parts of my house.

01:09:44 ◼   ► Cause I went and put widgets on all my walls and I set up applications in different rooms

01:09:48 ◼   ► and was walking between them.

01:09:49 ◼   ► I'm sitting on my couch playing with them.

01:09:51 ◼   ► I'm, I'm really trying to use this thing in every possible way that you can use it.

01:09:53 ◼   ► I was surprised at something I did not notice at all during the demo, which is instability

01:10:00 ◼   ► and misalignment in the virtual world.

01:10:04 ◼   ► I was, when I did the demo, I was amazed at how solid everything was.

01:10:08 ◼   ► It was just really, it was just did an amazing job of making things look like they were fixed

01:10:13 ◼   ► in space in front of you and having one in the house.

01:10:16 ◼   ► It still does that.

01:10:17 ◼   ► But very often when I go from one thing to another, like I, you know, for example, bringing

01:10:23 ◼   ► up the, whatever they call it, the home screen, the thing where it shows all the app icons

01:10:26 ◼   ► or whatever that goes away.

01:10:29 ◼   ► Sometimes like you can make that go away and then you can call it back to you and I would

01:10:33 ◼   ► make it go away and I would call it back to me.

01:10:34 ◼   ► And when I call it back, I'm like, is that tilted to the right a little bit?

01:10:40 ◼   ► Oh yeah.

01:10:42 ◼   ► Am I tilting my head?

01:10:44 ◼   ► I'm, I'm a very visual person.

01:10:47 ◼   ► One of my, if you want to read my old hypercritical post, but like a lot of my sort of artistic experience

01:10:53 ◼   ► of like doing fine arts and stuff as a kid, um, is sort of built on my, I was going to

01:11:01 ◼   ► say hypersensitivity, but it's the right word.

01:11:03 ◼   ► My hypersensitivity to the visual, I don't know, the visual size and shape and alignment

01:11:10 ◼   ► of things.

01:11:11 ◼   ► If something is not centered, I can tell if something is slightly crooked, I can tell I'm

01:11:15 ◼   ► very sensitive to that.

01:11:16 ◼   ► I can imagine a person who is not as sensitive, like, or has average sensitivity to this, not

01:11:21 ◼   ► noticing these things.

01:11:22 ◼   ► But for me, if something that I was put in one place and I look at it again and it's

01:11:25 ◼   ► like slightly, or like the right side of it is a little bit closer to me than the left side

01:11:32 ◼   ► of it, even though before it was perfectly square on with me, or if the top right is lower down

01:11:37 ◼   ► than the top left slightly, and it wasn't like that before I will notice.

01:11:41 ◼   ► And I do notice, and there's nowhere, no way in vision pro to fix that.

01:11:45 ◼   ► You can kind of with the windows, if it's like closer to you, you can kind of shove it back

01:11:48 ◼   ► and tilt it around.

01:11:49 ◼   ► But I'm like, but why do I have to make these adjustments?

01:11:51 ◼   ► The answer is you shouldn't make those adjustments.

01:11:53 ◼   ► They shouldn't, they should just not bother you, but they do bother me.

01:11:55 ◼   ► So that's, I'm assuming that's a limitation and a little bit of drift.

01:11:58 ◼   ► I noticed that we also with the widgets that I stuck on the wall, like I put a clock on

01:12:01 ◼   ► a wall and a picture frame on a wall.

01:12:03 ◼   ► And like, when I go over and look at them later, they'd be like a half inch off the wall.

01:12:08 ◼   ► And to vision pros credit, it would figure out that they're half an inch all the wall and

01:12:11 ◼   ► it would animate them.

01:12:12 ◼   ► So they're stuck against the wall again.

01:12:13 ◼   ► But it's like, I saw that you lost track a little bit.

01:12:16 ◼   ► I mean, it's mind boggling that it does this at all.

01:12:18 ◼   ► It's, I don't even know how it does this.

01:12:19 ◼   ► This is something I haven't really heard a lot of people talk about it, but like, think

01:12:23 ◼   ► about like, I put like a weather widget in my dining room and then I walk into my living

01:12:29 ◼   ► room where I have a clock widget.

01:12:30 ◼   ► I can walk from living room to the dining room and the weather widget is still on the

01:12:33 ◼   ► wall, wall in there.

01:12:33 ◼   ► How the hell does it do that?

01:12:34 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:12:35 ◼   ► I would also love to know because it's bananas.

01:12:37 ◼   ► Is it making a 3d model of my entire house and depth mapping every wall and figuring out

01:12:41 ◼   ► where they like it boggles.

01:12:43 ◼   ► It is.

01:12:43 ◼   ► It using GPS is using distance from wifi things.

01:12:46 ◼   ► Like, I don't even know how it does that at all.

01:12:48 ◼   ► And yet here I am complaining that when I walk with this thing from one room to the other

01:12:51 ◼   ► and look at the weather widget, it is a centimeter off until it adjusts itself.

01:12:54 ◼   ► I'm being picky, but very quickly, uh, in order to adjust the, uh, how can I verbalize

01:13:01 ◼   ► this?

01:13:01 ◼   ► So if you think about a window, uh, twisting on a vertical axis in the center of the window,

01:13:07 ◼   ► right?

01:13:07 ◼   ► So you want to take the left side and bring it closer to you while the right side goes

01:13:11 ◼   ► further away from you.

01:13:12 ◼   ► If you grab the bar on the bottom that you use to just move the window in 3d space and

01:13:17 ◼   ► tilt your head left and right.

01:13:18 ◼   ► So you're, you're taking the crown of your head and making it go to toward your left shoulder

01:13:23 ◼   ► or toward your right shoulder.

01:13:24 ◼   ► If memory serves, that will cause the, the window that you're holding to spin across

01:13:28 ◼   ► the vertical axis to try that.

01:13:30 ◼   ► Um, it's not stellar, but it's not obvious that that's something you can do.

01:13:34 ◼   ► I'm I'd be, yeah, I'd be looking for anything.

01:13:36 ◼   ► Cause you can't actually just like what I would usually do is I would shove it far away from

01:13:39 ◼   ► me and then bring it back again and get it square.

01:13:40 ◼   ► Right.

01:13:41 ◼   ► But what you're saying is there's an actual way to do this.

01:13:42 ◼   ► I'll have to try that.

01:13:43 ◼   ► Um, and speaking of windows, me being a big window management person, I was looking for

01:13:49 ◼   ► and failing to find something to help me with app switching and window management.

01:13:53 ◼   ► Cause I'd have a lot of things open at once and they'd be sort of vertically stacked on

01:13:56 ◼   ► top of each other.

01:13:56 ◼   ► And I wouldn't want them to be stacked in that way.

01:13:59 ◼   ► And yeah, I could take the ones I don't want and chuck them off to the side, but I didn't

01:14:02 ◼   ► want them off to the side.

01:14:03 ◼   ► I still wanted them to be in front of me.

01:14:04 ◼   ► I just wanted to hide them.

01:14:05 ◼   ► Whereas the hide function, and that doesn't seem to exist, which I can kind of understand

01:14:09 ◼   ► is how would you bring them back?

01:14:10 ◼   ► Like there's reasons for it, but yeah, the, the window and app management, or even if they

01:14:14 ◼   ► are stacked over, it's like, I just want to switch to the app in the back.

01:14:16 ◼   ► Well, I can look at the little part of this, this pointing out and then tap my fingers

01:14:20 ◼   ► together and bring it to the front.

01:14:21 ◼   ► But like, sometimes it's difficult to pull that off.

01:14:24 ◼   ► Well, I was looking for some kind of like hand wavy app switcher.

01:14:28 ◼   ► Like they should, you know, like three finger swipe, they should have, uh, Tom Cruise minority

01:14:32 ◼   ► port hand wave to the side to cycle through the application or hide it or whatever, but they

01:14:37 ◼   ► don't.

01:14:37 ◼   ► So that's something that I missed.

01:14:38 ◼   ► Uh, and then of course, if you get a vision pro in the house, as, uh, I think one of you

01:14:43 ◼   ► mentioned in a very recent episode, uh, the first and most important thing you do with

01:14:48 ◼   ► it is demo it to other people.

01:14:49 ◼   ► Absolutely.

01:14:50 ◼   ► Yep.

01:14:50 ◼   ► Absolutely.

01:14:51 ◼   ► So I did that.

01:14:52 ◼   ► Uh, my wife's the only one here now.

01:14:54 ◼   ► I gave her a demo.

01:14:55 ◼   ► Um, I, you know, I'm talking about the M2 vision pro in 2025.

01:15:00 ◼   ► This is old news.

01:15:01 ◼   ► I know, but it's not old news for me, but anyway, you've heard people complain that when

01:15:03 ◼   ► they demo, it's hard to demo things because, uh, when you try to get somebody to, uh, watch

01:15:09 ◼   ► video and you're mirroring, mirroring what they see on like your laptop screen or something,

01:15:13 ◼   ► it blacks out because of stupid copyright stuff, which it's the worst.

01:15:18 ◼   ► It's so frustrating.

01:15:19 ◼   ► Here's the thing that I didn't fully understand or have forgotten.

01:15:23 ◼   ► Um, when you do that, and by the way, the reason we're mirroring what they see on the

01:15:28 ◼   ► screen, cause otherwise try explaining, it's like playing charades.

01:15:30 ◼   ► Try explaining to somebody who's never used vision pro what they're supposed to do without

01:15:33 ◼   ► being able to see what they're seeing.

01:15:35 ◼   ► I'd only use it for like a day before I gave my wife a demo.

01:15:37 ◼   ► So it's not like I've memorized every pixel that's going to be on the screen, but it really

01:15:41 ◼   ► is like, describe to me what you see.

01:15:43 ◼   ► It's like trying to do tech support over the phone with somebody because they can see

01:15:46 ◼   ► stuff, but you can't see it.

01:15:47 ◼   ► So that's why Apple provides this great feature where you can see a version of what they're

01:15:51 ◼   ► seeing on your laptop screen or whatever.

01:15:53 ◼   ► That's really helpful because then you can see what they're seeing.

01:15:56 ◼   ► Although you also see their foveated rendering.

01:15:57 ◼   ► So a lot of times it's blurry.

01:15:59 ◼   ► You're like, go look over there.

01:16:00 ◼   ► Look over there.

01:16:00 ◼   ► Anyway, as soon as you bring them to like, okay, go to the TV app, go to this thing, you

01:16:05 ◼   ► know, run the, play this immersive demo.

01:16:07 ◼   ► Uh, you can't see it on your laptop screen.

01:16:09 ◼   ► Well, that touchscreen goes black cause it's immersive video.

01:16:11 ◼   ► It goes around everything.

01:16:11 ◼   ► Which that is, that is totally fine.

01:16:14 ◼   ► And I'm not that aggrieved by that.

01:16:16 ◼   ► Well, it's stupid, but okay.

01:16:18 ◼   ► But also inside the headset, they only see blackness too, but it still plays the video.

01:16:25 ◼   ► So they hear the sound.

01:16:26 ◼   ► They're like, it took me a while to even realize it's just like, am I supposed to be seeing

01:16:29 ◼   ► something?

01:16:29 ◼   ► I'm like, I could hear the audio playing cause she didn't have headphones using the speakers

01:16:34 ◼   ► and the straps.

01:16:34 ◼   ► And she's like, I'm supposed to be seeing something like, ah, she just sees blackness, but it tries

01:16:40 ◼   ► to play it anyway.

01:16:40 ◼   ► That is insane.

01:16:42 ◼   ► Like I get that you can't show it on two screens at once.

01:16:44 ◼   ► Show it on one.

01:16:45 ◼   ► And then as we said in the past, when we talked about this, Apple, it's your own video.

01:16:49 ◼   ► Like break the law, Apple.

01:16:52 ◼   ► This is a rare case where I'm saying Apple, just break the law.

01:16:55 ◼   ► Civil disobedience.

01:16:57 ◼   ► Literally implement this thing that violates the HDCP standard, break the law.

01:17:02 ◼   ► See if somebody comes for you.

01:17:04 ◼   ► No one's going to care because nobody has vision pros.

01:17:06 ◼   ► No one is pirating things by mirroring the foveated rendering of a vision pro and a laptop

01:17:11 ◼   ► and then screen recording it.

01:17:12 ◼   ► We have way better ways to pirate things.

01:17:13 ◼   ► Nobody would want that.

01:17:14 ◼   ► Just break the law.

01:17:16 ◼   ► Right?

01:17:17 ◼   ► And see if somebody comes for you.

01:17:18 ◼   ► You've got so much money.

01:17:19 ◼   ► I believe you could defend this lawsuit.

01:17:21 ◼   ► Maybe we'll change the HDCP standard.

01:17:23 ◼   ► Apple, you need to break the law because this is so stupid.

01:17:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:27 ◼   ► I mean, I, again, I can, I can forgive not showing what the person is seeing, not showing

01:17:33 ◼   ► the video the person is seeing on the mirror.

01:17:36 ◼   ► Like if I typically do this with an iPad, you can absolutely do with a laptop.

01:17:40 ◼   ► If the iPad or laptop or what have you, isn't showing the video that a person is seeing and

01:17:43 ◼   ► just showing a black box.

01:17:44 ◼   ► Fine.

01:17:45 ◼   ► It's a little annoying, but fine.

01:17:46 ◼   ► Understandable.

01:17:47 ◼   ► But the fact that they black out what's in the vision pro is utterly bananas to me.

01:17:53 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:17:53 ◼   ► And like I said, civil disobedience, you break the law on purpose and you accept,

01:17:57 ◼   ► the punishment for breaking the law as a way to highlight the injustice of the law and

01:18:02 ◼   ► the stupidity of the law and HDCP or whatever law contract, whatever it is, not a law, whatever

01:18:06 ◼   ► it is.

01:18:07 ◼   ► Like that standard is so stupid and has been causing such harm to the entire ecosystem for

01:18:13 ◼   ► years.

01:18:13 ◼   ► And here it is.

01:18:14 ◼   ► The vision pro doesn't need this.

01:18:16 ◼   ► It's got enough problems of its own on top of that to having to deal with HDCP copy, right?

01:18:22 ◼   ► Standard crap.

01:18:22 ◼   ► It's so stupid.

01:18:23 ◼   ► Also, for some reason, I don't even know if this is a bug, but like when changing environments,

01:18:29 ◼   ► it would black out both of our screens as well.

01:18:32 ◼   ► What the hell?

01:18:32 ◼   ► Environment's not.

01:18:33 ◼   ► Oh, I don't remember that.

01:18:34 ◼   ► Copyrighted video.

01:18:35 ◼   ► This might've just been a bug, but I was like, go to environments and put on the new environment

01:18:39 ◼   ► and dial it up in the crown.

01:18:40 ◼   ► It would black everything out for both of us again.

01:18:43 ◼   ► The other experience she had with the vision pro, first of all, she wasn't that impressed

01:18:46 ◼   ► by the things that impressed me, didn't impress her about the visuals and everything.

01:18:49 ◼   ► Fine.

01:18:50 ◼   ► She found dealing with the UI very frustrating.

01:18:53 ◼   ► Part of that was me trying to explain to her what to do when I couldn't see what she was

01:18:56 ◼   ► seeing, which is just going to be frustrating.

01:18:58 ◼   ► No matter what it's frustrating for both of us, but part of it was, she just didn't feel

01:19:02 ◼   ► like she took to it very well.

01:19:04 ◼   ► She could, she could do most things very quickly.

01:19:06 ◼   ► She's pretty technically savvy, but she found sort of the limitations of that world in terms

01:19:10 ◼   ► of managing the windows and things and, you know, and the typical vision pro thing that

01:19:15 ◼   ► I think we've all discussed before on this, this thing that I even saw in the demo, which

01:19:18 ◼   ► is you look at a thing with your eyes, you pinch with your fingers to activate it.

01:19:22 ◼   ► But it's, it's human nature that as soon as you look at it with your eyes and decide

01:19:26 ◼   ► to pinch, you then move your eyes off to something else, but your fingers haven't pinched yet.

01:19:30 ◼   ► You've sent the thought down for them to pinch like a brontosaurus telling it to move

01:19:34 ◼   ► its tail, right?

01:19:35 ◼   ► But the signal takes a while to go down there.

01:19:37 ◼   ► Meanwhile, your eyes have moved to something else on the screen.

01:19:39 ◼   ► And so you end up not pinching the thing you thought you were pinching or not pinching

01:19:43 ◼   ► anything at all.

01:19:43 ◼   ► And it takes some practice in the vision pro to remember, stare at it until the pinch completes,

01:19:48 ◼   ► then look somewhere else.

01:19:50 ◼   ► And that can be frustrating for new users as well.

01:19:52 ◼   ► But yeah, she was not impressed, uh, and found the UI frustrating and didn't understand why

01:19:56 ◼   ► people would want to have this thing.

01:19:57 ◼   ► Uh, and you know, that's not a, that's not a new complaint.

01:20:00 ◼   ► I did use it as a replacement for my iPad in the bed.

01:20:03 ◼   ► It would, well, hold on.

01:20:05 ◼   ► Was she, was, was she impressed at all by the immersive stuff or no?

01:20:08 ◼   ► No.

01:20:09 ◼   ► Well, that's surprising to me because I have not given a demo to someone that hasn't at

01:20:14 ◼   ► least said, holy smokes, that's cool.

01:20:16 ◼   ► You know, that may sometimes, sometimes followed up by, oh, I would never want one of these,

01:20:21 ◼   ► but immediately, holy smokes, that's cool.

01:20:23 ◼   ► I was super impressed by it.

01:20:25 ◼   ► Maybe go back and listen to the episode.

01:20:26 ◼   ► I'm still very impressed, but I think it's great.

01:20:27 ◼   ► She was not impressed.

01:20:29 ◼   ► Um, so I said, well, maybe this will be, maybe one of the benefits will be cause I, you know,

01:20:33 ◼   ► I can, I watch TV on my iPad in bed.

01:20:35 ◼   ► Very often she's asleep next to me on the rare occasions that she can't get to sleep.

01:20:40 ◼   ► She blames it on my iPad and I have to put it away, but it's nothing to do with my iPad.

01:20:44 ◼   ► It's just to do with whatever is keeping her awake because most nights she goes to sleep

01:20:48 ◼   ► instantly and is snoring away next to me while I watch stuff on my iPad.

01:20:52 ◼   ► Um, but anyway, what if you could, what if I could watch TV in my bed without having any

01:20:56 ◼   ► light coming out, uh, using the vision pro.

01:20:59 ◼   ► So I tried that obviously not ideal to have that big thing, uh, you know, in bed and have

01:21:05 ◼   ► to find a place for it when you take it off and you're kind of, you know, you're really

01:21:09 ◼   ► closing yourself off from your partner when you have a big headset on, but if she's asleep

01:21:12 ◼   ► anyway, it's not that big of a deal.

01:21:13 ◼   ► So I tried it.

01:21:13 ◼   ► Um, the various theater modes where you can have it in like a movie theater, uh, incorporate

01:21:19 ◼   ► your, your thing that you're watching into the environment.

01:21:22 ◼   ► So it could be floating over a mountain lake and have it reflecting in the lake, or you

01:21:26 ◼   ► could just have it as a window in and out of an environment, lots of options there.

01:21:29 ◼   ► And I was able to find a whole bunch of different options that worked well for me laying in my

01:21:34 ◼   ► bed, propped up against the pillow, watching video.

01:21:36 ◼   ► One of the fun things was that I could put my knees up.

01:21:39 ◼   ► So they were quote unquote blocking the screen, but of course they weren't blocking the screen.

01:21:43 ◼   ► The screen just draws right over top of them, which was amazing.

01:21:45 ◼   ► That's something I can't do when I watch TV and then laying down on the couch and put my

01:21:49 ◼   ► knees up.

01:21:50 ◼   ► But if I block the TV, you know what I mean?

01:21:52 ◼   ► You don't have to worry about that in vision pro.

01:21:53 ◼   ► Your knees aren't real.

01:21:54 ◼   ► Uh, it was weird that I could still see my hands a lot of the time.

01:21:57 ◼   ► I was like burying my hands in the cover.

01:21:59 ◼   ► So I wouldn't see my little, like, uh, you know, uh, composited outline hands.

01:22:03 ◼   ► Cause it's always trying to keep track of where your hands are.

01:22:05 ◼   ► It's like, I don't want to see my hands.

01:22:06 ◼   ► I'm just watching the thing.

01:22:07 ◼   ► Um, I, I do think that watching the video that way, as cool as it is, uh, one of the sort

01:22:13 ◼   ► of known issues with the vision pro, um, is that they're like, I don't, I don't know

01:22:19 ◼   ► what these come from, but they are a thing, some kind of internal reflection thing is going

01:22:24 ◼   ► on in there.

01:22:25 ◼   ► I don't know if these are reflections inside the lenses, if these, if this is light bouncing

01:22:28 ◼   ► off parts of the inside of the case.

01:22:30 ◼   ► But if you're watching video and there's bright stuff on the screen, very often you will see

01:22:36 ◼   ► a faint ghostly echo of that bright stuff floating in your field of vision, kind of around the

01:22:41 ◼   ► middle.

01:22:41 ◼   ► And whatever causes that they need to fix it because if, as far as I'm concerned watching,

01:22:47 ◼   ► I watch many hours of video in this thing so far, that is the biggest downside versus

01:22:52 ◼   ► me watching on my iPad.

01:22:53 ◼   ► It's not even the resolution.

01:22:54 ◼   ► My iPad is sharper than this is because I hold it real close to my face and it's high resolution

01:22:59 ◼   ► and it's OLED and it's amazing.

01:23:00 ◼   ► These screens are also amazing.

01:23:01 ◼   ► I see that the lower resolution, but it doesn't matter when you're watching like people on

01:23:05 ◼   ► a screen, like you're not looking at like a retina display for people.

01:23:08 ◼   ► It's fine.

01:23:09 ◼   ► Like I recognize that it's lower res, but, but also it has the advantage of being huge and

01:23:14 ◼   ► my knees don't block it.

01:23:15 ◼   ► And like there's other advantages to it, but those, whatever they're light up, ghost artifacts,

01:23:20 ◼   ► things, whatever is causing those, they make the experience of watching video worse for

01:23:25 ◼   ► me than watching on my iPad.

01:23:26 ◼   ► It's not even what I thought it would be like big, heavy thing.

01:23:29 ◼   ► My face getting hot, all that other stuff, because with the new strap, it actually is

01:23:33 ◼   ► pretty comfortable.

01:23:34 ◼   ► And I feel like it's sort of, it's a wash of, I'm laying in bed.

01:23:36 ◼   ► I'm willing to deal with all those things.

01:23:38 ◼   ► It's that it's those little ghostly things.

01:23:41 ◼   ► And again, I don't know where they come from.

01:23:42 ◼   ► I imagine their internal reflections and lenses or something.

01:23:45 ◼   ► I'm sure if they were easy to solve, Apple would have solved them.

01:23:47 ◼   ► I'm using contact lenses in the vision pro because I don't have lens inserts for them.

01:23:52 ◼   ► So it's not reflections in my glasses.

01:23:54 ◼   ► I'm wearing my contact lenses and I don't have hard contact lenses.

01:23:56 ◼   ► They're regular ones.

01:23:57 ◼   ► So, and Marco has said that he sees the same ghostly things even when he's not wearing glasses

01:24:02 ◼   ► or corrective stuff.

01:24:03 ◼   ► So this is a thing and I don't know where it comes from.

01:24:05 ◼   ► And I wonder if Samsung's fixed it as well.

01:24:07 ◼   ► But I was surprised to see that that was the thing that made me think that the iPad is a

01:24:12 ◼   ► better choice than the vision pro for watching in bed.

01:24:15 ◼   ► Anyway, I'll, you know, I'm keeping this thing as long as Casey's keeping his review unit.

01:24:19 ◼   ► So whenever he wants his thing back, I'll send it back to him and he'll send in his review

01:24:23 ◼   ► unit back.

01:24:24 ◼   ► So I'll have this thing for a while and I hope I'll find new uses for it and other things

01:24:28 ◼   ► to do with it.

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01:26:28 ◼   ► There is possibly an even larger miracle than you receiving even a secondhand borrowed Vision

01:26:39 ◼   ► Pro.

01:26:39 ◼   ► And that is that we found a reason and a way to get Marco to strap his Vision Pro to his face.

01:26:46 ◼   ► And the three of us did a like almost hour long spatial FaceTime call, which I think either

01:26:53 ◼   ► John, John, you had never done one in Marco.

01:26:55 ◼   ► You either hadn't or hadn't done one in forever.

01:26:57 ◼   ► Is that right?

01:26:57 ◼   ► I had never done one.

01:26:58 ◼   ► Okay.

01:26:59 ◼   ► And so we did that.

01:27:00 ◼   ► And I have spoken, I think in the past about how cool I think this is.

01:27:04 ◼   ► And for a while there, Jason and Steven and Mike and James and I had a standing and actually

01:27:09 ◼   ► Dan Morin as well for a while had a standing by or every two weeks appointment that we would

01:27:14 ◼   ► inevitably always blow off.

01:27:16 ◼   ► And we would do one of these spatial calls.

01:27:19 ◼   ► But we only ended up or I only ended up connecting on like five of them over the span of a year

01:27:23 ◼   ► or two.

01:27:23 ◼   ► But for me, I thought that that was the closest I, the vibe of it, the vibe of it and the feel

01:27:30 ◼   ► of it was as close as I've gotten to hanging out with people that are far away without actually

01:27:36 ◼   ► hanging out with the people that are far away.

01:27:39 ◼   ► And I'm curious, and since John and I have been talking a lot, perhaps Marco, you can

01:27:42 ◼   ► kick us off.

01:27:42 ◼   ► But I'm curious what you thought of that.

01:27:44 ◼   ► I also compelled Marco and John to play, what is this game something, I forget what the name

01:27:48 ◼   ► of the app is.

01:27:48 ◼   ► Game Room.

01:27:49 ◼   ► Game Room.

01:27:50 ◼   ► Thank you.

01:27:50 ◼   ► And play like a legally distinct version of Battleship in Game Room against each other

01:27:54 ◼   ► while I was spectating.

01:27:55 ◼   ► And I'm curious to hear, Marco, what did you think of the spatial FaceTime and what did you

01:27:59 ◼   ► think of Game Room?

01:28:01 ◼   ► Well, the first thing you notice with the spatial FaceTime is like, so what Casey made

01:28:06 ◼   ► me do was install iOS, or Vision OS 26, and then remake my persona because the personas got

01:28:14 ◼   ► a lot better in OS 26.

01:28:16 ◼   ► And so I did that.

01:28:17 ◼   ► I made my whole self again, re-scanned my face.

01:28:23 ◼   ► And the resulting persona actually does look a lot like me.

01:28:29 ◼   ► But immediately upon entering, John was, of course, immediately saying, oh, it looks like

01:28:34 ◼   ► your neck has weird Botox or something.

01:28:36 ◼   ► It looks a lot like the person.

01:28:40 ◼   ► It is.

01:28:41 ◼   ► It's like if you hired a stuntman to double for Marco to do the stunts, this is what the

01:28:46 ◼   ► stuntman would look like.

01:28:48 ◼   ► It's almost across the Uncanny Valley, but it's definitely in the Uncanny Valley.

01:28:54 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:28:55 ◼   ► So here's the thing.

01:28:56 ◼   ► Here's the thing about the personas.

01:28:57 ◼   ► Like when I saw like the, you know, not having one, I would just see the pictures like here's

01:29:01 ◼   ► what they look like and here's the improved versions like all the improved ones are way

01:29:04 ◼   ► better.

01:29:04 ◼   ► But like it's different when you're looking at a persona of a person that you don't know.

01:29:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:29:11 ◼   ► Versus when I see Marco's persona, I know what Marco looks like.

01:29:15 ◼   ► Someone that you've seen for a long time in person, you are, again, hypersensitive to

01:29:20 ◼   ► any minor, like humans are, you know, evolutionarily selected to be good at recognizing faces.

01:29:28 ◼   ► That's why the Uncanny Valley exists.

01:29:29 ◼   ► Because if it's like it's almost real, but not quite, it looks scary if something is wrong

01:29:33 ◼   ► with it.

01:29:34 ◼   ► And so if you don't know Marco and you saw his persona, you're like, that's amazing.

01:29:38 ◼   ► I would be convinced that it's him.

01:29:39 ◼   ► But if you know Marco, there's no way in hell you would be convinced it's him because it

01:29:42 ◼   ► doesn't look like him, it's so close, but not quite.

01:29:45 ◼   ► I don't agree.

01:29:45 ◼   ► I think it looks pretty good.

01:29:47 ◼   ► I don't think it's that far off.

01:29:48 ◼   ► Yeah, I agree with Marco.

01:29:49 ◼   ► Casey's was closer than yours, but they got your whole bottom part of your face wrong.

01:29:54 ◼   ► If you were wearing a Batman mask, it wouldn't even look like you because you'd only see the

01:29:57 ◼   ► bottom of your face coming out of the mask.

01:29:59 ◼   ► And it looked great.

01:30:00 ◼   ► It looked amazing.

01:30:01 ◼   ► It looked a little bit like, you know, robotic with the mouth things.

01:30:05 ◼   ► Like it's what it does is amazing, but I'm, you know, there's no way you could fool me

01:30:12 ◼   ► into thinking that was Marco.

01:30:12 ◼   ► I'd always know it's his persona and same thing with Casey, but Casey was closer.

01:30:15 ◼   ► I agree that you would always know it's a persona, but I really think that what Marco said a few

01:30:20 ◼   ► minutes ago, for me, I feel like most personas that I've interacted with are on the other side

01:30:26 ◼   ► of the uncanny valley.

01:30:27 ◼   ► Now that maybe there are, maybe they're on the edge of it, you know?

01:30:30 ◼   ► So they're like teeter-tottering, you know, waving their arms, if you will, right on the

01:30:33 ◼   ► edge.

01:30:33 ◼   ► It looks better still than in motion.

01:30:35 ◼   ► Once it starts moving, you're like, okay, you're a little bit back in the valley.

01:30:37 ◼   ► That is, that is true.

01:30:38 ◼   ► But I really do think not only is it amazing, but I do think it is a reasonably good facsimile

01:30:44 ◼   ► of your faces until the movement, the movement is a little not great to your point, but in

01:30:49 ◼   ► general, I think that they're astonishingly good facsimiles of your faces.

01:30:54 ◼   ► What it has going for it is it is higher fidelity than your typical FaceTime video.

01:31:00 ◼   ► Because FaceTime video is compressed and it's blurry.

01:31:02 ◼   ► And if there's a hitch in the network, like, you know, but these things are always full

01:31:06 ◼   ► res because they're being rendered locally, essentially, or I'm assuming they're being

01:31:09 ◼   ► rendered locally.

01:31:10 ◼   ► So, and they fit into the world.

01:31:12 ◼   ► Like it's, it's like an in-engine cut scenes in games.

01:31:15 ◼   ► It fits in with the rest of the world.

01:31:16 ◼   ► Like, I'm not saying they're bad.

01:31:17 ◼   ► They're, they're amazing.

01:31:18 ◼   ► And they accomplished their job very well.

01:31:21 ◼   ► But I was surprised that because I had not experienced this with anybody that I knew.

01:31:25 ◼   ► I just seen still images sometimes with people that I knew and still images of strangers,

01:31:29 ◼   ► but being in that environment with people that I know what their actual face looks like,

01:31:33 ◼   ► I was startled by how much I decided that this is not Marco.

01:31:37 ◼   ► This is a Marco stuntman puppet.

01:31:39 ◼   ► Well, and like, and most, like every part of the kind of like simulated reality of this,

01:31:48 ◼   ► like, first of all, like everything has a combination of incredible technical achievement.

01:31:55 ◼   ► And also it's kind of wrong.

01:31:59 ◼   ► Like, and that's like, like, like we were saying earlier, like everything the vision pro does,

01:32:04 ◼   ► it, it is just a stunning, remarkable technical achievement.

01:32:10 ◼   ► Like to, to do what it does in like the basics of what it does, put this helmet on your face that is opaque and has screens in it and make it look like you can see through it into the room.

01:32:21 ◼   ► That alone and how well it does that is remarkable.

01:32:25 ◼   ► And that was so much engineering and so much sophistication and so much work to get that to be as good as it is.

01:32:34 ◼   ► But the result is you put it on and you're like, eh, it's kind of a crappy view of my room.

01:32:38 ◼   ► It's a little bit laggy and smeary and gives me a little bit motion sickness.

01:32:41 ◼   ► Yeah, and that's mostly limited by the camera hardware, which is a shame, but you know, it's already $3,500, so what do you want?

01:32:46 ◼   ► Right.

01:32:46 ◼   ► And like, okay, so you get into the world and every step of the way, I was, I was like, oh my God, this does look a lot like me.

01:32:56 ◼   ► And oh, wow, that does look a lot like the two of you, but not quite.

01:33:02 ◼   ► And it's like, again, once you think about what it is doing, it is as if there is a camera on my face, but there is not a camera on my face.

01:33:10 ◼   ► There are parts of my face that the sensors can't even see, and they just have to kind of guess, like, what, like, my mouth is doing.

01:33:18 ◼   ► What are, what are my cheeks doing?

01:33:20 ◼   ► Like, it can see some of that, like, from the sensors inside, but not a lot of it.

01:33:25 ◼   ► It has to guess what are my shoulders doing.

01:33:27 ◼   ► It can see some of that, but not all of that.

01:33:29 ◼   ► Like, and it does all of that with remarkable quality.

01:33:33 ◼   ► But, again, the result is, hmm, it's kind of off.

01:33:38 ◼   ► It's kind of, it's kind of wrong.

01:33:40 ◼   ► And I feel like this is the story of the entire Vision Pro, like, of, like, the hardware and capabilities.

01:33:47 ◼   ► I'll get to the content in a second.

01:33:48 ◼   ► But, like, the hardware and capabilities side of the entire Vision Pro is, like, remarkable technical achievement to result in something that is kind of cool, but you're like, but I don't really want to use this or do this.

01:34:03 ◼   ► But it's, it's amazing that I can do this.

01:34:06 ◼   ► But the, the overall product and the overall experience to the customer is, hmm, this is kind of weird, or this is kind of crappy, or this is kind of limited.

01:34:16 ◼   ► And, and certainly, like, you know, like, even just the basics of it, like, this is the longest I'd use the Vision Pro in probably six months at least, maybe a year.

01:34:25 ◼   ► So, I kind of got, like, a fresh look on it.

01:34:27 ◼   ► And, you know, some of the newer stuff that it can do.

01:34:29 ◼   ► I can see why people are really excited about this.

01:34:33 ◼   ► But it's almost, like, everything the Vision Pro does, every single thing, the content, the virtual FaceTime things, the games, every single thing.

01:34:44 ◼   ► It reminded me of, there was, like, some, like, you know, popular video that went around about a month ago of a guy who would ask ChatGPT, count to a million.

01:34:54 ◼   ► And it was this funny video, because ChatGPT, this was in voice mode, and it, GPT kept saying, like, okay, one, two, and so on.

01:35:03 ◼   ► And I would just keep going like this.

01:35:04 ◼   ► And he's, like, no, no, no, don't, don't tell me what you would do, just actually do it, count to a million.

01:35:08 ◼   ► Okay, four, five, six, and it would go on like this.

01:35:12 ◼   ► And the guy's, like, no, no, you keep, stop, stopping, just keep going.

01:35:16 ◼   ► And no matter what the guy did, it would just be, like, well, it would be, like, seven, eight, nine, like that.

01:35:25 ◼   ► That is how every single thing in the Vision Pro feels.

01:35:28 ◼   ► Every single, I know this is a leap, bear with me, every single thing I have ever done in the Vision Pro, every bit of content, every application, every experience, every single thing has been, like, well, this is the kind of thing you could do in the Vision Pro.

01:35:42 ◼   ► Okay, so do it, oh, well, okay, well, it would go kind of like this.

01:35:49 ◼   ► This is kind of how you would have a meeting in the Vision Pro.

01:35:52 ◼   ► Or, this is the kind of TV show that we could make for the Vision Pro.

01:35:56 ◼   ► Okay, make it.

01:35:59 ◼   ► Here's some more demos of here's some more things you could do in the Vision Pro.

01:36:03 ◼   ► Here is an example of what sports could be like in the Vision Pro.

01:36:07 ◼   ► Here's an example of what this adventure series might be like in the Vision Pro.

01:36:10 ◼   ► Here's an example of what a concert could be in the Vision Pro.

01:36:15 ◼   ► Okay, well, where is it?

01:36:17 ◼   ► We're now, like, two years in.

01:36:20 ◼   ► Where is it?

01:36:21 ◼   ► Where is all this stuff?

01:36:22 ◼   ► Where is the application?

01:36:23 ◼   ► What happens?

01:36:25 ◼   ► What is it like to actually follow through and actually do all of these things?

01:36:32 ◼   ► And so far, every single thing I've done, even, like, you know, I'm sure I was talking a moment about, like, we played a board game.

01:36:38 ◼   ► We played Battleship together.

01:36:39 ◼   ► And it was like, okay, this is an interesting demo of an experience.

01:36:44 ◼   ► I'm never going to do that again, but, okay, this is an example of the kind of thing I could do in the future.

01:36:49 ◼   ► I'm not going to, of course, but I could.

01:36:51 ◼   ► It's like, ugh, where is the thing?

01:36:54 ◼   ► It seems like we're always heading towards the thing.

01:36:56 ◼   ► We can see the thing off in the future, maybe potential things of how this might go.

01:37:01 ◼   ► This might be amazing in the future.

01:37:03 ◼   ► Okay, well, when?

01:37:06 ◼   ► And what do you do with the product now, as it exists in the present, that was bought with present or past money, with this present ecosystem and all this past engineering work, like, okay, what do we do with this now?

01:37:20 ◼   ► And it seems like everyone is looking so far forward, so far into the distance, including Apple, that no one is kind of looking at the present and realizing, hmm, we don't actually want to do any of these things.

01:37:36 ◼   ► In the present, more than, like, once as a demo.

01:37:39 ◼   ► There's stuff in there that's not demo-aware.

01:37:42 ◼   ► Like, we did some of the things, like, looking at pictures together.

01:37:44 ◼   ► That's a fully realized thing that I wish I could do better in FaceTime on the phone and the iPad.

01:37:48 ◼   ► I know you can do it in FaceTime on the phone and the iPad, but it's such a pain because the interface is so bad.

01:37:52 ◼   ► But getting everybody in a virtual space and looking at photos together was real easy.

01:37:56 ◼   ► I was, I'm a first-timer doing it, and maybe Casey has some experience with it, but, like, it was real easy to take a bunch of pictures or, you know, videos or whatever and show them to people.

01:38:06 ◼   ► Very often when I'm doing FaceTimes with family, I want to show pictures or other things.

01:38:10 ◼   ► And this makes it easy and way nicer because you're all sitting together.

01:38:15 ◼   ► It puts you, like, sort of, you know, you're all facing the screen.

01:38:18 ◼   ► You can move the screen.

01:38:19 ◼   ► You can resize it.

01:38:20 ◼   ► You can pick what you want to show on it.

01:38:21 ◼   ► You can play video.

01:38:22 ◼   ► You can take a panorama and wrap it around everybody.

01:38:24 ◼   ► That's a fully realized experience.

01:38:26 ◼   ► Like, as someone in the chat room said when you were complaining about the sort of demo nature of it, that it's like, that's not fair.

01:38:33 ◼   ► The Vision Pro is only about 75% demo, which is true.

01:38:37 ◼   ► Like, there are fully realized experiences in there for a lot of basic things.

01:38:40 ◼   ► Mac virtual display, I think, is a fully realized experience for what it is.

01:38:43 ◼   ► It, you know, it does.

01:38:44 ◼   ► It lets you see and control your Mac completely.

01:38:47 ◼   ► It's just, you know, there's just not enough resolution on the screen for it to look like Retina.

01:38:50 ◼   ► But other than that, it does that thing.

01:38:52 ◼   ► A lot of their apps are like that.

01:38:54 ◼   ► I feel like the virtual space is like that.

01:38:57 ◼   ► The games, there are a bunch of games, maybe not enough, but there are some of them.

01:39:01 ◼   ► And those are, it's not just this is what it would be like.

01:39:03 ◼   ► This is an actual game.

01:39:04 ◼   ► Watching movies, I think, is a fairly fully realized experience with lots of different options.

01:39:08 ◼   ► Because even before you get into third-party apps like, uh, apps like, uh, um, theater.

01:39:13 ◼   ► I don't know, of course, a television app, which I tried out that lets you have like 3D models of televisions.

01:39:18 ◼   ► Even before you get into that realm, just the built-in stuff for watching video and movies, like 2D movies or quote-unquote 3D movies like Avatar or whatever, that's fully realized and it works.

01:39:28 ◼   ► Uh, but yeah, there is a lot of potential that is not realized because the ecosystem has not built up around it and because there's not enough content for it, as we've said.

01:39:34 ◼   ► But, um, for the things that it does do, I think it is, does offer a complete implementation of those things.

01:39:40 ◼   ► Uh, you know, I also wanted to point out that when you do the spatial FaceTime thing, you're seated in some sort of like circle, circle-ish thing.

01:39:49 ◼   ► Are you seated?

01:39:50 ◼   ► You have no lower torso.

01:39:51 ◼   ► It's hard to say.

01:39:52 ◼   ► Oh, that's fair.

01:39:54 ◼   ► Um, but you appear to be maybe seated.

01:39:56 ◼   ► And if one of, if one person stands up, they will raise up in the virtual space.

01:40:00 ◼   ► Uh, you can point with your hands because your hands exist in the virtual space.

01:40:03 ◼   ► But as, as you were saying a moment ago, what's really cool about the spatial FaceTime is that they kind of seat you in a circle-ish pattern and you're maybe seated.

01:40:12 ◼   ► It's kind of ambiguous because you don't have a lower half.

01:40:14 ◼   ► But, you know, if one of us stands up in the real world, that, that person's spatial avatar will braise up in the spatial world, which is really neat.

01:40:22 ◼   ► And you can point and whatnot because you have your hands in the spatial world.

01:40:25 ◼   ► You can tend to your fingers together or interlace your fingers and you can tell that the person's fingers are interlaced.

01:40:30 ◼   ► Um, but when you present something like a photo or what have you, it's smart enough to put us all in a row, which is actually not entirely stellar because then you have to look through one of the, if you're on one of the extreme ends, you have to look through the person in the middle to, to see the person on the far end.

01:40:44 ◼   ► But still I give them, you know, 90% marks on this because it's basically doing what you would want it to do.

01:40:50 ◼   ► And you get to, you know, and you get to look at something together, which is really neat.

01:40:53 ◼   ► But, um, I, I think that one of the more fun demos of the vision pro is the, uh, the, the legally distinct battleship game.

01:41:00 ◼   ► So it seems like Marco, you were not entirely impressed.

01:41:03 ◼   ► John, what did you think of the legally distinct battleship?

01:41:06 ◼   ► I mean, that's a good application, like doing board games like that.

01:41:09 ◼   ► Um, it is, uh, unlike, uh, sharing photos, doing a board game in person is just much nicer.

01:41:18 ◼   ► Obviously, if you're on the other side of the world from somebody in the virtual one is the only one you've got, that's fine.

01:41:22 ◼   ► And it's a more intimate experience than just playing a 2d version.

01:41:25 ◼   ► But, you know, sometimes playing a 2d one can be good too.

01:41:27 ◼   ► If you're like, I know a lot of people do this.

01:41:28 ◼   ► I'm sure your kids, you've seen your kids do it where they're on FaceTime with their friends,

01:41:31 ◼   ► but they're also playing a network game with their friends with a different device or even the same device.

01:41:35 ◼   ► Um, that actually is similar to this with far less technology.

01:41:38 ◼   ► Um, but yeah, I can see, you know, board games, uh, would be a good application of this technology

01:41:44 ◼   ► because you do get to reach out and do things with the virtual board in front of you and stuff like that.

01:41:48 ◼   ► It's just the battleships, not that exciting of a game.

01:41:50 ◼   ► So, um, you know, I, I, and there are other games, we had to try lots of other games.

01:41:54 ◼   ► And now with the, the PS2 VR controllers that they're compatible with that Apple will sell you separately from the headset.

01:41:59 ◼   ► Now they actually have handsets, which potentially opens up the world to more games,

01:42:03 ◼   ► but the game situation is just so much better on the quest and obviously so much better on the, uh,

01:42:08 ◼   ► the valve index or the, you know, all the, all the other sort of game centric things or the PlayStation VR even than it is Apple.

01:42:14 ◼   ► And that's their own fault for, you know, being typical Apple and not getting games and refusing to ship their own hand controllers

01:42:19 ◼   ► and only belatedly incorporating third-party hand controllers.

01:42:22 ◼   ► See also Apple TV and third-party controllers.

01:42:24 ◼   ► So, you know, it is what it is, but it's a good application.

01:42:27 ◼   ► But like, uh, sharing photos, it's better in the vision pro because even if you're in person with somebody,

01:42:32 ◼   ► you can't take your little, uh, five by seven, uh, print and stretch it out to fill the room.

01:42:38 ◼   ► Right.

01:42:39 ◼   ► Uh, or unless you have a very large screen, you can't like project from your laptop and share,

01:42:43 ◼   ► I'm going to project my picture up on that entire wall.

01:42:46 ◼   ► Do you have a wall size screen?

01:42:47 ◼   ► No, but at vision pro you do.

01:42:48 ◼   ► Uh, and it's cool.

01:42:50 ◼   ► And it's, I think it's better.

01:42:51 ◼   ► It's like renting out a movie theater to show your family pictures to people.

01:42:55 ◼   ► Um, and again, you don't expect to, Oh, a whole family just needs a $300 headset and we can all do it.

01:42:59 ◼   ► Like that's, I get it.

01:43:01 ◼   ► It's not realistic, but three of us had them and we put them on and we had an experience looking at pictures

01:43:06 ◼   ► that they would be better than if I was just swiping through them on my phone and you were trying to look at my phone screen.

01:43:10 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:43:11 ◼   ► Yeah, very much so.

01:43:12 ◼   ► All right.

01:43:13 ◼   ► Uh, well, finally, we should at least briefly mention the developer strap.

01:43:16 ◼   ► Uh, today we were told that there is a new developer strap reading from Mac rumors.

01:43:20 ◼   ► The second generation developer strap offers data transfer speeds of up to 20 gigabits per second when connected to a Mac.

01:43:26 ◼   ► Whereas the original version was limited to USB 2.0 speeds of up to 480 megabits per second.

01:43:30 ◼   ► It is unclear if there are any other changes.

01:43:32 ◼   ► The new strap is compatible with both the vision original vision pro with the M2 chip and the updated model of the M5 chip.

01:43:37 ◼   ► Um, I am told that the, uh, M2 will get the, uh, increased data speeds, but, uh, I don't think I've seen this verified at any point,

01:43:46 ◼   ► but the tech specs from Apple read the USB-C data connection is up to 20 gigabits per second.

01:43:50 ◼   ► Individually amplified dual driver audio pods compatible with the Mac and it's compatible with the vision pro M2 and the vision pro M5.

01:43:56 ◼   ► So the increased data rate, uh, that's like when you're, you know, when you're doing development, that's why it's called a developer strap and you're, you build and run your application in Xcode and it will ship it over to the vision pro to run on device.

01:44:09 ◼   ► Presumably it will do that shipping over faster because instead of 480 megabits, it's up to 20 gigabits.

01:44:13 ◼   ► Like, is that the main advantage you see in this thing?

01:44:15 ◼   ► Uh, I think so.

01:44:17 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:44:17 ◼   ► Um, but I can fathom, you know, somebody had said when the original came out, like, why can't we do, you know, like HDMI to USB-C?

01:44:25 ◼   ► Because what's coming out of the developer strap, let me, let me back up.

01:44:28 ◼   ► You, the way the developer strap works is you use like a little, uh, pin, like you would have to pop out a SIM tray.

01:44:35 ◼   ► You pop out the left hand, I think that's right.

01:44:39 ◼   ► The left hand, uh, uh, strap, which is the thing that has, that comes off the vision pro that the, um, the head piece is connected to and you pop that off and you put in a new one.

01:44:50 ◼   ► So it has the speaker in it, but it also has a permanently attached little dongle-y thing that has a USB-C input into it.

01:44:56 ◼   ► And you can't charge through this.

01:44:58 ◼   ► All you can do is connect it to a computer and send data back and forth to the computer.

01:45:03 ◼   ► But why couldn't you connect it to ethernet?

01:45:05 ◼   ► Why couldn't you connect it to HDMI?

01:45:07 ◼   ► And, you know, what if you could suck in, you know, an arbitrary HDMI video feed into the vision pro that would be amazing, but that's not currently possible.

01:45:16 ◼   ► So to more directly answer your question.

01:45:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:45:18 ◼   ► The only thing that this really is useful for is sending developer stuff back and forth.

01:45:24 ◼   ► And, and I can't think of, uh, even when, when Apple has you demo, uh, immersive content.

01:45:30 ◼   ► If I recall correctly, what they do is you, you basically connect to your Mac via presumably ad hoc wifi and it streams content from your Mac to your vision pro.

01:45:41 ◼   ► I don't know that that would even help.

01:45:43 ◼   ► I don't know that the developer strap with help with that either, even though it seems like it would be the perfect timing for it, if you will.

01:45:48 ◼   ► So, yeah, I don't know.

01:45:49 ◼   ► And we also talked about having a lower latency for Mac virtual display with a wired connection.

01:45:54 ◼   ► Yeah, that's true.

01:45:55 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

01:45:55 ◼   ► I did forget about that.

01:45:56 ◼   ► Um, yeah.

01:45:57 ◼   ► Hypothetically, it would be a lower latency for Mac virtual display.

01:46:00 ◼   ► It also wouldn't be doing the ad hoc wifi thing for Mac virtual display.

01:46:04 ◼   ► Um, so that would presumably be not only more solid, but more performant.

01:46:08 ◼   ► Um, I mean, I, I, I occasionally use my developer strap on the rare occasions that I'm, um, that I'm doing development.

01:46:15 ◼   ► And, and if I'm going to a questionable wifi environment, including occasionally the library, sometimes I'll go ahead and swap it on and, and connect to my Mac just to make it a little more reliable.

01:46:24 ◼   ► But generally speaking, I don't think this is necessary, but I'm curious to try it out, especially, um, especially if the Mac virtual display is much better.

01:46:32 ◼   ► I, then, then if you're a Mac virtual display person, and I know there are people that use their vision pro for hours a day with Mac virtual display, if you're one of those people, then this might be worth it.

01:46:41 ◼   ► It is, I think it's $300, if I'm not mistaken, which is not cheap.

01:46:45 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

01:46:46 ◼   ► It's not cheap, especially if you've already bought one.

01:46:49 ◼   ► But, um, but yeah, it, it, it certainly is a heck of a lot more powerful than the one we were used to.

01:46:53 ◼   ► Although it's still like, you know, the pro, the, the, the original vision, the original vision pros developer strap had, I think two major problems.

01:47:03 ◼   ► Number one was the cost, which I believe was also $300.

01:47:07 ◼   ► Um, and number two was that when you are aware, so when normally wearing the vision pro, you have the battery, uh, with the, with the power cable.

01:47:16 ◼   ► So the battery's in your pocket and the power cable snaking up, usually like, you know, up around, you know, your, your back or your chest and like up around your ear into, uh, you know, the, the, the stick that it goes into.

01:47:26 ◼   ► Now, with the vision pro developer strap, and the, the, the first one too, um, you have the other stick of the vision pro, you now have another cable going into that.

01:47:39 ◼   ► So you have cables going down both sides of your head into various things.

01:47:45 ◼   ► If you think the vision pro is awkward with one cable, it is so much more awkward with two and they had a chance to make, they made a second vision pro developer strap.

01:47:56 ◼   ► And did they solve that major physical problem?

01:47:59 ◼   ► Nope.

01:48:00 ◼   ► Seemed like they made no effort whatsoever to solve that major physical problem.

01:48:03 ◼   ► And it's just like, it's like every other thing about the vision pro update.

01:48:06 ◼   ► It's like, okay, they upgraded some stuff.

01:48:08 ◼   ► Did they solve any of the massive problems and challenges and drawbacks it had?

01:48:13 ◼   ► Nope.

01:48:14 ◼   ► Not a single one.

01:48:15 ◼   ► Not even, not even adjusted to any of them, but it's new.

01:48:19 ◼   ► Well, I don't, maybe they can't do that because maybe data only goes in the right side, but, uh, power can only go in the left because of the electronics on the inside of the thing.

01:48:26 ◼   ► You got that backwards, I think, but yeah, I take your point.

01:48:29 ◼   ► But they, they made the vision pro and the developer strap at the same time.

01:48:34 ◼   ► Oh yeah, I know.

01:48:34 ◼   ► I know.

01:48:35 ◼   ► I'm just saying like, if you're looking for them to fix a design problems,

01:48:38 ◼   ► the one where they didn't redesign the product is not going to be the one that's going to solve them.

01:48:41 ◼   ► Either way, uh, I, I, I, I'm curious to see how this works out.

01:48:45 ◼   ► And again, like my overall summary of the M5 vision pro is if you like the vision pro, but wanted a more modern, faster version of it, then yeah, it's pretty great.

01:48:55 ◼   ► If you already have an M2 vision pro, would I recommend upgrading?

01:48:58 ◼   ► Nope.

01:48:58 ◼   ► I don't think so.

01:48:59 ◼   ► Um, especially since you don't get anything from trading into Apple.

01:49:02 ◼   ► Yeah, you can't trade in.

01:49:03 ◼   ► Um, but no, I mean, it, it is more of all the things that, that are great about the vision pro and depending on how you feel.

01:49:10 ◼   ► And I'm not trying to imply, imply that Marco is wrong because nothing Marco said is particularly wrong.

01:49:15 ◼   ► I just have a slightly different attitude about it.

01:49:16 ◼   ► But if you are enthusiastic about the vision pro, but wanted a more modern version, then Hey man, you got it.

01:49:22 ◼   ► This is it.

01:49:23 ◼   ► Um, but I wouldn't necessarily say this is a upgrade, a necessary upgrade unless apparently you have phenomenal eyesight and can tell the difference from about a 10% change.

01:49:33 ◼   ► Uh, so yeah, uh, it's, but I'm, I'm really genuinely quite thankful for, uh, to Apple for sending me one.

01:49:38 ◼   ► And, uh, I hope that maybe there'll be more of things like this in the future.

01:49:41 ◼   ► All right.

01:49:42 ◼   ► Thank you to our sponsors this episode, Squarespace, Lisa, and Delete Me.

01:49:46 ◼   ► And thanks for our members who support us directly.

01:49:48 ◼   ► You can join us at atp.fm slash join.

01:49:51 ◼   ► One of the perks of membership is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic.

01:49:56 ◼   ► This week in Overtime, we're going to be talking about how Apple is now the new exclusive broadcast partner for Formula One in the U.S.

01:50:03 ◼   ► Uh, so we'll have our own little kind of over stream going on here.

01:50:06 ◼   ► So thank you very much for everybody for listening and we will talk to you next week.

01:50:11 ◼   ► Now the show is over.

01:50:16 ◼   ► They didn't even mean to begin.

01:50:18 ◼   ► Cause it was accidental.

01:50:20 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental.

01:50:23 ◼   ► John didn't do any research.

01:50:26 ◼   ► Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:50:29 ◼   ► Cause it was accidental.

01:50:30 ◼   ► Oh, it was accidental.

01:50:33 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at atp.fm.

01:50:39 ◼   ► And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:50:49 ◼   ► I have an unsatisfying bug story.

01:51:17 ◼   ► Uh, it's unsatisfying because it happened literally today and it's not resolved.

01:51:20 ◼   ► It's much better when you have a bug story like Marco did, where it's like, I had this weird problem and I tried to figure it out and it turned out to be this thing.

01:51:26 ◼   ► I've got the first part of that.

01:51:27 ◼   ► Maybe people can write in to say what they think it is, but it's probably just one of those weird bugs that I'm just going to have to like, it'll probably go away when I reboot or log out or something.

01:51:37 ◼   ► You know, just never think about it again.

01:51:38 ◼   ► You don't want to say the non-determinism of LLMs.

01:51:41 ◼   ► Well, there's seeming non-determinism in software, but it's actually completely deterministic if there are no LLMs involved because they're just bugs.

01:51:49 ◼   ► It's just seems non-deterministic because you don't see all the things that are happening.