00:00:00 ◼ ► I'm happy to report that all of my wood cutting and wood hanging and shelf hanging is complete.
00:00:20 ◼ ► I did probably, as predicted, probably used way too many screws and probably dramatically
00:00:41 ◼ ► So you're cutting pieces of wood, and when you have the cut end, it's kind of like sharp,
00:00:57 ◼ ► Instead, I just left them spiky and splintery because I'm like, I'm not going to touch that.
00:01:00 ◼ ► I mean, they're all like most of these pieces of wood are so high off the ground that you
00:01:22 ◼ ► And now keep in mind, the disclaimer here is that I did nothing to reduce the amount of
00:01:55 ◼ ► So the shelves, what we're just looking at is the wood backing that you described for getting
00:02:14 ◼ ► I originally had planned two, but the spacing of the screw holes on those shelf brackets
00:02:56 ◼ ► But certainly in their current configuration, the metal of something would bend before they
00:03:04 ◼ ► And I was thinking you were making the shelves themselves, which is why I was worried about
00:03:15 ◼ ► Thankfully, John has put it in our internal show notes in a purple font with a yellow background,
00:03:22 ◼ ► which I think is deliberately hideous, but it served its purpose because I almost forgot
00:03:35 ◼ ► If you recall, members—there was a member special, what was it, about a year ago, maybe
00:03:40 ◼ ► When the idea was basically John had an idea for an app, and he wanted us to talk him out
00:03:47 ◼ ► This member special is a similar kind of thing, except this time I had an idea for an app
00:03:53 ◼ ► that I might want to make, and I was basically coming to the Diamond Dogs, the advisory group
00:04:30 ◼ ► Anyways, so yeah, a couple of years ago now that we convinced John to do or maybe not to
00:04:40 ◼ ► And lots of members who have already listened to it, they have offered their opinions about
00:04:45 ◼ ► whether you should make the app, and they were all saying, Marco, please make it because
00:04:48 ◼ ► So if you want to hear what kind of app they're clamoring for and whether or not Marco's going
00:04:52 ◼ ► to make it and or whether or not he'll ever redistribute it to them, check out the special.
00:04:56 ◼ ► Yeah, and for whatever it's worth, I have done some feasibility studies in the meantime
00:05:02 ◼ ► to see, like, if I do this, could I—you know, what would it take and, you know, certain
00:05:10 ◼ ► kind of tech demo efforts of like, oh, well, let me just see if this API works the way I
00:05:31 ◼ ► You've got the one we talked about on the member special, and you've got many suggestions after
00:05:45 ◼ ► Jared Counts writes, with regard to Diamond Dogs, the Diamond Dogs and Ted Lasso are actually
00:05:54 ◼ ► Granted, I only know this because of the show The Venture Brothers, in which an elite squad
00:05:57 ◼ ► of villains is called the Diamond Dogs and is led by either David Bowie himself or a shapeshifter
00:06:02 ◼ ► Yeah, I mentioned at the top of the member special that we had called ATV Diamond Dogs because
00:06:08 ◼ ► Ted Lasso and particularly the episode where the Diamond Dogs were convened was kind of in
00:06:18 ◼ ► We might have mentioned this before in an earlier episode, like after the first Diamond Dogs,
00:06:31 ◼ ► as the Diamond Dogs and Ted Lasso, which is very explicitly a group of friends who convene
00:06:39 ◼ ► So I guess every time we make one of these episodes, every two years or so, we will remind
00:06:47 ◼ ► It just so happens that these first two have been about, should I or shouldn't I make this
00:06:54 ◼ ► Johnny Decimal Noble writes, listening to you talk about the nanotexture iPads, it struck
00:07:12 ◼ ► So there used to be, right before the Retina transition in the laptops, the outgoing 15-inch
00:07:37 ◼ ► I don't know about, well, because they changed, they tweaked the resolution like in the very
00:07:44 ◼ ► But yeah, it was, it was an option for a matte screen and it was a little bit more money.
00:07:48 ◼ ► But generally speaking, what happened was like everything, I don't think it was like, you
00:07:56 ◼ ► Basically, everything went to glass fronted screens instead of before it was, I think, like
00:08:06 ◼ ► Well, although I think the area you're talking about with the matte option for extra money
00:08:11 ◼ ► was in the era before there was glass in front of the screens, the history of sort of flat
00:08:29 ◼ ► RTs were basically glass cathode ray tubes and some of them had anti-glare coatings on them
00:08:35 ◼ ► But in the era of LCD flat panel monitors, very, very often from the beginning, pretty much
00:08:53 ◼ ► That happened very late before the transition to glass screens on Mac laptops, like toward
00:09:02 ◼ ► If this, if we put, if the piece of plastic on the front of this LCD is really, really shiny
00:09:26 ◼ ► Apple was quote unquote behind here because they didn't put shiny plastic on their LCDs,
00:09:36 ◼ ► And Apple transitioned to putting a shiny piece of plastic on the front of their LCDs instead
00:09:40 ◼ ► of a cloudy piece of plastic, and then offered the cloudy slash matte piece of plastic as
00:09:46 ◼ ► Then eventually Apple went glass for their screens, where the surface that you would touch with
00:10:10 ◼ ► Then Apple still said, well, for the people who still want that matte look, we offer this.
00:10:16 ◼ ► Nanotexture is the return of matte in the era of glass because nanotexture does not take
00:10:41 ◼ ► It's probably more complicated to etch that surface onto glass, especially when it's very
00:10:47 ◼ ► Again, Apple uses, I think, three different methods to etch the Pro Display XDR, the iPad
00:10:59 ◼ ► I think the only one I really, really didn't like was glossy plastic because it was like
00:11:09 ◼ ► I do like the glass displays of today without the nanotexture and then nanotexture has lots
00:11:18 ◼ ► And to be clear, like if you look at when people today say why they don't like nanotexture,
00:11:24 ◼ ► you can see why, like the reason why everyone switched to glossy was not just, you know, a
00:11:37 ◼ ► You know, the way that matte and nanotexture, you know, textures work is they diffuse the light
00:11:45 ◼ ► So, you know, they have some kind of bumpy surface on some level or a grainy or something.
00:11:54 ◼ ► What that also does is scatter the light beams from the image itself in from the display.
00:12:20 ◼ ► Like if you put like a paper-like, uh, thing on top of an iPad screen, like that's much worse.
00:12:26 ◼ ► Um, and the reason why the, like, and the paper-like is way more diffuse than nanotexture because to have that kind of the, the paper-like texture, you need a decent amount of thickness and you need a decent amount of friction.
00:12:39 ◼ ► So like the grain of the surface has to be like, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a coarser sandpaper type.
00:12:45 ◼ ► It's like, you need like a higher grain to be like more friction, you know, and that higher grain blurs the image more.
00:12:55 ◼ ► So it still scatters a light, but it blurs the image a lot less than most of the other options, uh, but it still blurs the image more than clear glass would.
00:13:04 ◼ ► And so as we went into the era of higher resolution, brighter, more saturated color screens, people wanted to see the full effect of that.
00:13:20 ◼ ► Like that's the matte finishes raised black levels in TV parlance, which means that if you have a totally black screen, it looks a little bit gray because light coming from literally anywhere and hitting your screen, some of it will bounce into your eyes because the matte surface scatters it in every possible direction.
00:13:33 ◼ ► Whereas if you have a glossy screen, you'll, you'll see like light reflecting from like a light overhead as a clear reflection on your screen, but the parts that don't have the light on it, they'll be black, the blackest of black.
00:13:47 ◼ ► If you don't want to see a mirror, like incredibly sharp, bright reflections of light sources, you want matte of some kind.
00:13:55 ◼ ► So I actually, I said, I believe in the last episode, how I had tried a nanotexture iPad pro in a store and I tried the pencil on it and it did feel more textured than the flat glass iPads.
00:14:08 ◼ ► Like when writing with a pencil, but it's not even close to as textured as the paper, like film feels.
00:14:17 ◼ ► An iPad with the paper, like film or like my, my preferred one is the, the Astro rock paper pencil, um, which is very similar in qualities to the paper, like brand, except it's, it sticks on magnetically.
00:14:36 ◼ ► Um, but an iPad with one of these paper texture films, um, the picture quality takes a significant hit.
00:14:51 ◼ ► But if you are optimizing for, you know, a, a, a textured paper-like feel, that might be a valid trade-off for you.
00:15:03 ◼ ► If you want a little bit of friction, but you do not want to sacrifice almost any image quality, that's nanotexture.
00:15:09 ◼ ► And if you don't care about pencil friction at all, and you want the best image quality to watch movies in John's bed, get the OLED iPad and have glass front.
00:15:23 ◼ ► We all wear underwear, at least most of us, uh, you know, every day or at least most days.
00:15:27 ◼ ► Uh, and so what's really nice about Skims is this is a brand that's been making, um, women's clothing for a while.
00:15:34 ◼ ► And it's been pretty well regarded and they've gotten into men's clothing recently and they have this really great underwear.
00:15:39 ◼ ► Now, they sent me a couple of pairs and I admit, I was like, it's underwear, you know, it's probably going to be nice.
00:15:46 ◼ ► Like, number one, when I first put it on, the first thing I noticed, oh my gosh, this fabric feels amazing on me.
00:15:59 ◼ ► But if you can either picture that if you want to, or more likely avoid picturing that, it looks amazing.
00:16:08 ◼ ► And of course, as I said, like the, the fabric is smooth and soft and it's, it's, it wears very sheer.
00:16:18 ◼ ► And like, they can be snug if you want and you won't see your underwear outline because it's like a nice thin sheer fabric.
00:16:34 ◼ ► I've had both the cotton and stretch materials for the boxer briefs and they are great.
00:16:45 ◼ ► After you place your order, what you do is you select podcast in the survey of how you found them and select our show in the drop down menu that follows.
00:16:52 ◼ ► So once again, skims.com, place your order, select podcast and tell them you came from this podcast.
00:16:58 ◼ ► And if you're looking for the perfect gift this season, the skims holiday shop is also now open.
00:17:39 ◼ ► Semi-custom AMD RDNA 3, 28 CUs, 2.45 gigahertz sustained clock, 110 watts TDP, 8 gigabytes of GDDR6.
00:17:55 ◼ ► Yeah, it's kind of disappointing they didn't have a combined CPU-GPU like the PlayStation 5 has,
00:18:01 ◼ ► but it probably would have cost a lot more money to develop one of those because they're kind of custom
00:18:27 ◼ ► The PlayStation 5 OS is based on free BSD, not Linux, thanks to Jesus Santiago Navarez for pointing this out.
00:18:40 ◼ ► code from BSD's open descendants have themselves also been integrated into various modern platforms,
00:18:55 ◼ ► I was saying how they PlayStation is an example of a non-Windows platform playing PC caliber games.
00:19:26 ◼ ► James Laughlin writes, the Steam Frame is, the Steam Frame is very similar in display and optical stack as the MetaQuest 3.
00:19:41 ◼ ► The Snapdragon 8 chip on the Steam Frame is slightly newer and more powerful than the Quest 3's XR 2 Gen 2 chip.
00:19:48 ◼ ► James also writes, here's a handy chart and a great website for comparing specs, which is vrcompare.com.
00:19:54 ◼ ► Also, I believe they'll sell a top strap for the Steam Frame separately, including knuckle straps like Index Controller Style.
00:20:09 ◼ ► But just a basic strap that goes along the top and you have to adjust kind of manually by, you know, undoing the Velcro and redoing it.
00:20:16 ◼ ► So, it's still kind of clunky, but again, the Steam Frame has all sorts of potential options because that whole front part disconnects from it.
00:20:31 ◼ ► And the divide on the, like, cheaper headsets between, like, it's confusing because of the names.
00:20:48 ◼ ► I think I described them last time as, like, circular ridges, like on a ruffled potato chip, but in circles.
00:20:54 ◼ ► It's like if you took a regular sort of, like, lens that's, you know, shaped like a lens in your eyeball and sliced it into a million concentric circles and then laid those concentric circles flat.
00:21:05 ◼ ► Have you ever been to visit a lighthouse and they take you to the very top and they show you the thing that's in front of the light to magnify it?
00:21:20 ◼ ► Because, again, it takes the big, thick lens, slices it into rings and squishes the rings.
00:21:28 ◼ ► And so pancake lenses are more like what you would imagine a traditional lens looks like inside a camera lens or a telescope lens or whatever.
00:21:38 ◼ ► I was trying to look up some specs and see what's saying, oh, pancake lenses block a lot of light.
00:21:53 ◼ ► But the thing I said, the thing I found by Googling was, like, a particular pancake lens in a particular headset was allowing 25% light transmission.
00:22:04 ◼ ► I think there's no getting around it when you have to project the image from these screens into our eyeballs in some way.
00:22:10 ◼ ► So, yeah, that's why screens of all types need to be bright inside headsets to make their way through the lenses that are in front of them.
00:22:22 ◼ ► You'll need a PC and controllers, but it works well enough for people to beat expert-level Beat Saber.
00:22:30 ◼ ► Yeah, lots of people are talking about this, like, you have to go to, like, a GitHub page and download a thing.
00:22:34 ◼ ► And it's a little bit of an involved setup, but it basically lets you stream VR games to your Vision Pro.
00:22:41 ◼ ► I guess you would use the PlayStation VR controllers with your Vision Pro and stream them there.
00:22:45 ◼ ► So, you know, it's a way to use your $3,500 headset as merely a streaming display for a game that is running on a PC.
00:22:55 ◼ ► I mean, in all fairness, what most people who like the Vision Pro tell us they use it most for is as an expensive display for some other kind of computer.
00:23:08 ◼ ► Although that could be streamed from another place if you wanted to as well, but it's not.
00:23:28 ◼ ► Saul and Magnus writes, Steam Machine is a great step forward for those that don't want to build something themselves.
00:23:53 ◼ ► These make an effort to include Valve's patches and updates for the best compatibility and offer images that launch into Steam's big picture interface.
00:24:00 ◼ ► Steam Machine itself has some hardware features for TV use like CEC, but 95% of the experience can be replicated today with low to mid-range gaming PC.
00:24:11 ◼ ► Julian Torres writes, many of the biggest multiplayer PC games, typically FPS games, actually require Microsoft Windows because of cheat detection software that is deep ties into the Windows kernel.
00:24:21 ◼ ► Without it, some games just straight up won't run or even when the game itself would work just fine on Steam OS.
00:24:27 ◼ ► For what it's worth, we note that the Windows anti-cheat stuff is also an issue on the Mac when you're using Crossover or similar adapter software.
00:24:36 ◼ ► Yeah, a lot of people were suggesting, you know, I was talking about gaming on ARM and, you know, thinking of my ARM Mac future and, like, you should try Crossover.
00:24:47 ◼ ► So I'm familiar with this because Destiny has some anti-cheat stuff in and so do a lot of competitive, I don't know, multiplayer games where cheating is a problem.
00:24:57 ◼ ► Where if you were to run some software locally on your PC or whatever, you could try to change the game such that you have an unfair advantage.
00:25:07 ◼ ► Like making walls invisible or auto-aim things that automatically put your crosshair on people's heads and, you know, cheating stuff.
00:25:14 ◼ ► And in multiplayer games, that ruins the game for everybody if you tried to join a multiplayer game and some people are cheating.
00:25:19 ◼ ► So the anti-cheat stuff has to do a thing that Apple OSes are familiar with from a security standpoint, which is stop someone from doing something to the software that's running on their machine.
00:25:30 ◼ ► And the way lots of Windows gaming anti-cheat stuff does this is with deep, deep hooks into the kernel, into the Windows kernel to, you know, detect if anything is changed or modified or whatever.
00:25:44 ◼ ► It's these anti-cheat things themselves are sort of scary software because they're like running inside your kernel and doing stuff.
00:25:50 ◼ ► But it's the only way that they can stop other they can either detect or stop this cheating software from running locally on people's PCs.
00:25:59 ◼ ► And as far as I'm aware, that Windows anti-cheat stuff, we don't have a way, nobody's figured out a good way to make that anti-cheat stuff work when those games are running on Linux.
00:26:10 ◼ ► And I know there's adapter layers for all the DirectX ATIs and there's emulation and so on and so forth.
00:26:22 ◼ ► But even then, it's not quite the same thing as, you know, again, if those games were allowed to run on Linux, that seems like another venue for cheaters.
00:26:30 ◼ ► Because they could find a way to defeat the anti-cheat software that thinks it's running on Windows, but it's really running on Linux because you're able to fake it out.
00:26:38 ◼ ► Anyway, it's a complicated problem, but it does mean that some of the most popular games won't work on Linux, SteamOS, and also won't work for Mac users who are trying to run Windows games with Crossover or with Apple's Gameporting Toolkit or stuff like that.
00:26:54 ◼ ► Continuing from Julian, I'm not aware if this is something Valve is already working on, but I bet that they are.
00:26:59 ◼ ► These big games have a lot of mindsharing gamers' heads, which ends up keeping a lot of people on Windows.
00:27:03 ◼ ► I think that when that domino falls and Valve can essentially emulate those systems or maybe become popular enough to come up with their own anti-cheat system that's compatible with Linux, Microsoft might wake up to the Steam threat.
00:27:13 ◼ ► Yeah, and we'll get to a little bit more of that in a second, but, like, that's, you know, if Valve is able to convince people, like, these big game makers who are making, like, Call of Duty or even, like, Destiny or whatever,
00:27:24 ◼ ► hey, I know you're using this, usually they're using, like, a third-party anti-cheat thing that has deep hooks into the Windows kernel,
00:27:29 ◼ ► but, like, here's what you should do to make an anti-cheat system that works in SteamOS on Linux,
00:27:36 ◼ ► or maybe they'll vend their own third-party anti-cheat service and then get, you know, convince game makers to install that in their game.
00:27:45 ◼ ► Like, Microsoft should already be waking up to the threat of these, but if they're able to convince game makers,
00:27:50 ◼ ► you know the Windows game you're making, add a bunch of complication to it so that it can run on Linux with all the anti-cheat protection that you desire.
00:28:01 ◼ ► And if any game, any big game makers say yes to that, Microsoft should absolutely wake up because, like, they're stealing your market.
00:28:14 ◼ ► Valve's hard work getting Windows games to run well on the Linux-based Steam Deck has lifted all boats.
00:28:19 ◼ ► Gaming handhelds that ship with Windows run better and have higher frame rates on Bazite, a Fedora-based distro, than they do with Windows.
00:28:26 ◼ ► And after reading about the upcoming Steam Machine and fellow Verge writer Antonio's experience running the Bazite on the framework desktop, I want to try it.
00:28:34 ◼ ► I think if you're going to say that Valve's hard work getting Windows games to run well on Linux-based Steam Deck has lifted all boats,
00:28:48 ◼ ► Anyway, a lot of people sent that in, whatever this recent, well, there's a link to it in the article,
00:28:52 ◼ ► of, like, whatever this recent test was showing higher frame rates when I'm running a Windows game on Linux than you get on Windows.
00:29:13 ◼ ► Lars Boris writes, according to the Steam Hardware Survey, about 95% of users are on Windows, 3% on Linux, and 2% on macOS.
00:29:35 ◼ ► And obviously the Steam Deck has existed for a while, but that is a handheld gaming PC,
00:29:40 ◼ ► which is a category that the Steam Deck essentially, you know, pioneered, if not the Switch pioneering,
00:29:48 ◼ ► But still, it's not that big of a market, even though there are more people entering it.
00:30:03 ◼ ► And the answer up until now was, oh, you could build one and there's some small phone factor PCs.
00:30:10 ◼ ► But maybe Valve is not going to promote the Steam machine that hard because, again, they make all their money from the store.
00:30:19 ◼ ► But there was a story, a couple of stories recently, that even though the numbers are small, that Linux percentage has grown a lot recently.
00:30:35 ◼ ► But Microsoft doesn't have to worry too much that they're going to, that their gaming dominance is going to disappear overnight.
00:30:46 ◼ ► It can do a lot of things that Sony, Microsoft, or Apple would never do because it doesn't have to answer to anyone but Gabe Newell, the president and co-founder of Valve.
00:30:52 ◼ ► It's worth noting the other founder, Mike Harrington, sold a stake in Valve to Newell in 2000 and left the company.
00:31:04 ◼ ► They have already played the hell out of the long game and they can do that with this as well.
00:31:37 ◼ ► And the entire time they've had to compete with not Steam, which is the whole rest of the PC gaming market.
00:31:43 ◼ ► And as for, you know, Valve, Valve is very much sort of like a founder-led, founder-controlled company where they are willing to do things without having to explain how this is going to pay off over the long term.
00:31:57 ◼ ► And I bet if you had seen them experimenting with making game controllers and selling Linux machines that run Windows games and VR headsets, you'd be like, this is just a boondoggle for a company that became famous for making a couple of good games in a store.
00:32:15 ◼ ► And by the way, we got through that whole previous episode without referencing the extremely common off-sited nickname for the Steam machine, which is a six-inch cube that is a gaming PC, kind of like a gaming console that runs SteamOS.
00:32:34 ◼ ► But now I realize lots of people might not have been born when the Nintendo GameCube was released.
00:32:43 ◼ ► With regard to the M5 having the best single-core performance ever, Stephen OptiBeck writes,
00:32:50 ◼ ► this is a recent ranking of single-thread performance in an artificial benchmark across all types of CPUs.
00:33:05 ◼ ► But it's worth noting that I believe Apple chips are the top five, one, two, three, four, five of the top 10.
00:33:34 ◼ ► Again, if you go to Geekbench, you'll see all sorts of CPUs with ridiculous single-core scores
00:33:41 ◼ ► because I'm assuming they're massively overclocked and, like, cooled by some exotic system or whatever.
00:34:00 ◼ ► That could just be because maybe the M5 finally fits some part of this benchmark into its L2 cache or something.
00:34:07 ◼ ► But Apple's marketing claim or the common phrase that you'll see in a lot of reviews that the M5 is the highest single-core performance ever,
00:34:28 ◼ ► had a matte option that was $150 more expensive than the regular resolution glossy screens.
00:34:53 ◼ ► and, of course, I got the matte option because everyone was very much getting glossy in those days.
00:35:00 ◼ ► Well, the way I remember phrasing this, maybe this was a Casey-ism, but I don't think so,
00:35:12 ◼ ► There was one generation, I think, one or two, right before Retina on the 15-inch MacBook Pro,
00:35:23 ◼ ► So, I would just like to state for the record that one time in 2025, I actually remembered something.
00:35:41 ◼ ► Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website and engage with your audience and sell
00:35:46 ◼ ► whatever you need to sell for your business, from products to content to time, all in one
00:36:38 ◼ ► So, for your customers to check out and to pay you, they support everything under the sun.
00:36:43 ◼ ► Of course, all the credit cards, things like direct debit, of course, Apple Pay, but also
00:36:54 ◼ ► Their shopping engine supports, of course, physical goods, digital goods, but also things
00:37:02 ◼ ► If you want to sell consulting slots, if you're a coach or something, you can do that too.
00:37:30 ◼ ► I've really thought about bringing up a bottle of vodka and doing the thing I would never ever
00:37:38 ◼ ► do again because I have a feeling you're not going to need me for the rest of this episode
00:37:44 ◼ ► because someone, probably John, put in the show notes, in our internal show notes, the Mac
00:37:55 ◼ ► A lot of people are writing to me online asking me what I think about this and what I'm going
00:38:06 ◼ ► I've been increasingly sort of histrionic about the complete lack of any news about future
00:38:14 ◼ ► All these rumors I've been reading about, all these other products, this product's going
00:38:32 ◼ ► And so, like I said in the last episode, you know, I was supposed to get a new Mac this year
00:38:42 ◼ ► And by the time it became clear, they were going to do nothing because I kind of had to wait
00:38:49 ◼ ► Now I can't do what was my early in the year plan, which is like, let me just get an M4 Max
00:38:57 ◼ ► So the new tentative plan as of last episode was next year, I'll get an M5 Max Max Studio
00:39:03 ◼ ► and or unless Marco convinces me to get an M5 Ultra Max Studio, assuming the M5 Ultra exists,
00:40:21 ◼ ► And now they're saying there's going to be M5 Ultra, but it's not going to the Mac Pro either.
00:41:03 ◼ ► It's a Mac Studio in a giant box with card slots that have very limited usefulness with an increasingly
00:41:11 ◼ ► I mean, even though I would have complained if they had put the M3 Ultra in it, at least
00:41:15 ◼ ► they would have been like, well, this dumb product that you made, it is now an up-to-date
00:41:22 ◼ ► It seems like they should like announce an end of life or just say like, we're not making
00:41:28 ◼ ► Now, part of me thinks this, the case on the 2019 Mac Pro, the Intel 2019 Mac Pro, that case
00:41:42 ◼ ► It's not like they're going to change the case for the R1 and lo and behold, they didn't.
00:41:45 ◼ ► Even though they did change the case for some of their other more popular products, how long
00:41:49 ◼ ► do they have to keep making and selling something called the Mac Pro before they're satisfied
00:42:00 ◼ ► It's going to become like the trash can where they were selling it for years after it was
00:42:03 ◼ ► just a total embarrassment, I guess, just to recoup the cost of the factory that only made
00:42:13 ◼ ► But this is at least, I mean, I know this is an official announcement, but German giving support
00:42:24 ◼ ► about should we or shouldn't we do the Mac Pro, apparently the we shouldn't team is winning.
00:42:42 ◼ ► If it is updated and it gets an M5 Ultra, all it's doing is it's like putting the M5 in
00:42:59 ◼ ► Colin Cornaby, who is a fellow Mac Pro fan, writes in to clarify that this is not a, you
00:43:23 ◼ ► And that's an old GPU at only a fraction of the power of something like a GeForce 5090.
00:43:33 ◼ ► I'm hoping M5 Ultra is better, but I was really hoping for an M5 Extreme or the mythical 2X Ultra
00:43:42 ◼ ► I looked up Geekbench metal scores for the Radeon 6900 XT, which you can put in a 2019 Mac Pro.
00:44:01 ◼ ► So, Apple's current best GPU, the M3 Ultra, fastest GPU Apple sells today in the end of 2025,
00:44:17 ◼ ► And I think you might have been able to put two of these in the Mac Pro, but I'm not sure.
00:44:39 ◼ ► that that Ultra, that sort of, you know, two Ultra quad type of thing, would be competitive
00:45:06 ◼ ► So not only have they never made a quad one, even their double one is two generations behind,
00:45:10 ◼ ► which is why the very fastest GPU you can get in a Mac is as fast as a five-year-old GPU.
00:45:17 ◼ ► And not just any five-year-old GPU, a five-year-old GPU that you could put in an incredibly slow
00:45:29 ◼ ► It's all about AI and much faster, wider memory bandwidth for the unified memory architecture.
00:45:40 ◼ ► And the M3 Ultra would beat it in any modern benchmark that did AI and yada, yada, yada.
00:45:45 ◼ ► But the thing is, graphics and games are, in fact, a possible use of lots of computing power.
00:45:52 ◼ ► We just got done talking about all that Steam stuff and that market for, you know, PC games
00:45:58 ◼ ► And Apple has massively raised the floor on their GPU system, on their systems in terms of GPU.
00:46:14 ◼ ► But Apple has basically abandoned the high-end, even in their supposed high-end products.
00:46:19 ◼ ► So maybe I'll make, like, a Mac Pro rest-in-peace shirt or something like that when Apple finally
00:46:38 ◼ ► Something is currently lost and will continue to be lost because it's very difficult to get
00:46:59 ◼ ► When we were looking at the iPod sock videos last week, looking at that Apple phone strap
00:47:05 ◼ ► thing that I've already forgotten the name of, I think it was in that video or maybe in,
00:47:13 ◼ ► Steve Jobs was there on stage doing a thing that he'd done so many times before, bragging
00:47:24 ◼ ► Whether or not it has always been true, he's wanted to say it because it's bragging rights.
00:47:32 ◼ ► Apple hasn't been able to say that in a long time, and it doesn't look like they're going
00:47:44 ◼ ► And people who are interested in the high-end are interested, maybe they're interested in
00:47:46 ◼ ► AI, and Apple can say we have the world's best AI thing that's not an NVIDIA card that costs
00:47:52 ◼ ► I just miss the days when Apple was, you know, shooting for the stars and producing the world's
00:47:57 ◼ ► fastest personal computer, the world's most powerful personal computer, the world's most
00:48:04 ◼ ► This is the world's most powerful AI workstation or something like that, if they can come up with
00:48:21 ◼ ► And it just disappoints me to see them given up on trying to shoot for this particular kind
00:48:27 ◼ ► Yeah, I think what ultimately has killed this version of the Mac Pro has been a combination
00:48:38 ◼ ► I mean, as much as John hates this, I think they do not care about a number of the markets
00:48:43 ◼ ► at all that used to be pretty well served by that machine or something like that machine.
00:48:48 ◼ ► So for instance, like by going to Apple Silicon, they totally gave up Windows, Bootcamp, Parallels,
00:49:07 ◼ ► They switched to Intel because at the time those were the best chips and the chips they were
00:49:11 ◼ ► on were nowhere near the best and they needed to switch for just for competitive performance
00:49:16 ◼ ► And so they did switch and it was a big deal, but it was not, it wasn't to get those markets.
00:49:29 ◼ ► Like Bootcamp itself is sort of from another era of Apple where they were saying, here's
00:49:36 ◼ ► a thing we know you're probably going to want to do with your machine and here's a first
00:49:44 ◼ ► And that shows that someone somewhere in Apple had enough clout to say, look, it's, we're
00:50:05 ◼ ► especially early on, Apple was still, you know, very much trying to get people to switch
00:50:10 ◼ ► And so Windows compatibility through, you know, bootcamp secondarily, but I think primarily
00:50:15 ◼ ► I think that helped them a lot, gain some of that market share, kind of give, giving people
00:50:19 ◼ ► like some training wheels to bring their Windows software along for the ride as they slowly
00:50:24 ◼ ► And I experienced that in me getting Macs into the workplace during that era to say, oh,
00:50:32 ◼ ► enough RAM to run the virtual machines, you know, I'm not running a games, but you could
00:50:49 ◼ ► Or because Microsoft's Windows on ARM strategy is not compatible with what Apple's doing.
00:51:05 ◼ ► Um, so anyway, so they, you know, the gaming market is something that Apple has institutionally
00:51:17 ◼ ► And most PC gamers hate Apple for lots of reasons, some of which are very good reasons.
00:51:23 ◼ ► So like Apple and Apple and gamers, with the exception of John as the only person in the
00:51:28 ◼ ► middle of these Venn diagrams, Apple and gamers do not get along in either direction and they
00:51:42 ◼ ► Remember they demonstrated Maya on the trash can, like that kind of sort of high end 3D
00:51:58 ◼ ► through outright neglect or just kind of the markets themselves moving because Apple was
00:52:05 ◼ ► Most of those markets now use, you know, different hardware, you know, PC hardware, Linux, uh, cloud
00:52:11 ◼ ► stuff on premises, like servers and like they, they're, they're moving on to lots of different
00:52:23 ◼ ► What powers the AI revolution is NVIDIA accelerators and Apple and NVIDIA do not get along at all.
00:52:43 ◼ ► And so these markets have either been abandoned by Apple or have left Apple or have developed,
00:52:52 ◼ ► So at the same time, Apple Silicon is a huge benefit to the markets Apple holds onto and
00:53:04 ◼ ► I mean, coincidentally or not, like Apple Silicon, the, the SOC with the unified memory architecture
00:53:12 ◼ ► It just so happens that it's not the market leader because they're not selling $30,000,
00:53:23 ◼ ► Um, but that's, you know, but so Apple Silicon benefits Apple's core markets substantially.
00:53:30 ◼ ► And we've talked about how amazing it's been for the iPhone, the Mac, like it's, it's been
00:53:43 ◼ ► And so when you take out GPUs from the reason for the Mac pro to exist because of Apple Silicon
00:53:54 ◼ ► It, you know, there are certain like audio video, um, IO cards that are used pretty frequently,
00:54:01 ◼ ► Setting aside the cards though, what it's really for is the thing that Apple has never made.
00:54:05 ◼ ► It's the case, the Mac pro 2019 Mac pro case, which again, they're not going to redesign
00:54:14 ◼ ► It has a tremendous cooling capacity, has huge fans, huge volume for a huge heat sinks for
00:54:21 ◼ ► So you can put in there a thing with an integrated GPU, some monster chip that gets really hot,
00:54:27 ◼ ► that gets hotter than you could fit in a Mac studio case that goes faster and is more powerful.
00:54:32 ◼ ► And Apple has simply never made that every chip they've made that has been powerful has
00:54:37 ◼ ► So it's had to be designed to fit within the power envelope of a Mac studio cooling system.
00:54:49 ◼ ► But Apple has never made that despite all the rumors and the attempts and they were going
00:54:54 ◼ ► And remember the long time ago, the rumor is like, it's not on the roadmap anywhere until
00:55:17 ◼ ► It would be faster because the faster you go and the more transistors you put on there,
00:55:32 ◼ ► Well, but yeah, but like, you know, they, they have this machine and it has dropped most
00:55:45 ◼ ► And by the fact that the cheapest one is $7,000, like they, when they launched it, I don't
00:55:51 ◼ ► think they were intentionally trying to kill this product line over time, but you could,
00:56:01 ◼ ► It's like, it's almost as if like the enemies of this thing within the company have like subverted
00:56:07 ◼ ► it intentionally that like there's, there's obviously proponents and enemies and the proponents
00:56:22 ◼ ► So, you know, like I would love to see the back and forth on this, but it's probably just,
00:56:38 ◼ ► And now it's like, okay, but you can't do anything with them for another, for like six years
00:56:46 ◼ ► And to be clear, I mean, the iMac is obviously, it's not a laptop, so it's not Apple's bread
00:56:59 ◼ ► And it took such a long time for Apple to finally give that product its worth with that colorful
00:57:07 ◼ ► And I'm glad they're updating it with the new SOCs and it's still a pretty good computer.
00:57:14 ◼ ► screen a little bit bigger or, you know, did something else fancy with it or rethought some
00:57:21 ◼ ► Yeah, but like, you know, the Mac Pro, like, you know, the iMac still has a strong market.
00:57:29 ◼ ► I mean, laptops took over most of the consumer market, but the iMac is still like, if you
00:57:33 ◼ ► want like a stationary computer, especially if you care for it looking nice in like an office
00:57:49 ◼ ► The Mac Pro, you know, the world has moved in a direction that has shrank its market, but
00:57:58 ◼ ► Apple, by their own choices, shrunk, shrunk, shrunk, shrunk it so much further by their own,
00:58:10 ◼ ► And so it isn't that like, even if Apple did a great job and kept this updated and it was
00:58:24 ◼ ► And the other thing is that the iMac market is much more tolerant of like skipping a year
00:58:30 ◼ ► Like the people who buy the iMac don't care if it's like, you know, you know, nine to 12 months
00:58:36 ◼ ► behind on the fastest SOC, but the market for something like the Mac Pro, they do care.
00:58:41 ◼ ► Not that they want it to be changing constantly, but they want it to not fall behind because
00:58:45 ◼ ► part of the reason they spend all this money on this big computer is a, they want something
00:58:49 ◼ ► that only a computer this big with this many fans can do, which Apple has not offered in
00:58:59 ◼ ► And Apple has been like, it'll be the fastest for like, well, in the case of the M2 one,
00:59:06 ◼ ► But like, say they had put the M3 Ultra into it, the Mac Pro before the other things, it
00:59:17 ◼ ► Also, like when you look at the Apple Silicon scaling story, the CPU scaling is not good once
00:59:26 ◼ ► you get past like the, the max, like the ultra, even like going from, from the base through
00:59:36 ◼ ► And that's true of any architecture, but Apple Silicon, like you, you definitely see like
00:59:40 ◼ ► in the cores they've made so far, you can see like there's a clear ceiling and, you know,
00:59:50 ◼ ► And then going from, you know, max to ultra, you get another jump that's nowhere near 2X.
01:00:01 ◼ ► Although they did screw that up with one, I forget which one, but they did screw that up
01:00:08 ◼ ► the, the, uh, silicon interposer, like the fact that they try, they, they made them out
01:00:12 ◼ ► of two maxes stuck together, that, that is the, if you had, if you simply built a dedicated
01:00:17 ◼ ► one with that same number of resources, it would be better than trying to take two maxes and
01:00:25 ◼ ► Like that's the argument that, yeah, I mean, and there's other bottlenecks I'm sure too.
01:00:33 ◼ ► like setting aside when they screwed up the GPU thing by under-resourcing some buffer or
01:00:36 ◼ ► something, the fact that they insist on building their ultras out of two maxes is, it's a clever
01:00:46 ◼ ► Whereas if they had made the dedicated chip, it wouldn't, but if they made a dedicated chip,
01:00:51 ◼ ► That's been a little thing with the extreme, like, you know, with the quad thing, they can't
01:00:55 ◼ ► We're not going to sell, we're going to sell this many of them and it's going to cost this
01:00:58 ◼ ► It'll be our most expensive, you know, like Intel had this problem to some degree, but not
01:01:02 ◼ ► really because they would sell to server farms and everything like this chip, this, whatever,
01:01:07 ◼ ► this high-end chip is going to cost the most and be the most complicated chip that we make.
01:01:12 ◼ ► And we're going to sell a tiny, tiny fraction of the number we sell of our other chips.
01:01:18 ◼ ► And I would point them to my case for a true Mac Pro successor article and saying, you're,
01:01:23 ◼ ► you know, Mount Everest, you're climbing it because it's there, blah, blah, blah, blah.
01:01:34 ◼ ► So I think ultimately the Mac Pro as we know it today, not only is very obviously doomed and
01:01:52 ◼ ► Like when you look at what is, what happened to the Mac Pro and the Apple Silicon era, if
01:01:57 ◼ ► the tower version was never released, you would look at the Mac Studio, it would probably, it
01:02:02 ◼ ► would, the Mac Studio would probably be called Mac Pro and we would just say, that's the Mac
01:02:08 ◼ ► I wouldn't say that because Mac Pro is the computer Apple produces and says, this is the world's
01:02:13 ◼ ► And they never said that about the studio because it's not true and it's also not expandable.
01:02:19 ◼ ► Now, I agree with you that Apple probably would have called it Mac Pro, but saying the Mac
01:02:24 ◼ ► Studio is the new Mac Pro is only true in the sense that it is the fastest computer from
01:02:44 ◼ ► keep it, you know, queued and contained and kind of a big brother Mac mini and don't be
01:02:55 ◼ ► But the Mac Studio, I think when you look at, okay, the Mac Pro in the Apple Silicon era
01:03:13 ◼ ► Again, back of the envelope, it could be as fast as a single, well, you know, they just
01:03:21 ◼ ► Also because of the Apple Silicon architecture, the very high amounts of RAM market has also
01:03:49 ◼ ► Any kind of, you know, neural and ML stuff might be better depending on how it's architected.
01:03:53 ◼ ► But like CPU processing, it's way ahead of the Intel era and way ahead of everything else,
01:03:59 ◼ ► just not by a linear amount, but way ahead of everything else they make if they keep it updated.
01:04:04 ◼ ► And then, you know, things like throughput and Thunderbolt bandwidth, they probably have
01:04:25 ◼ ► Hell, they could have just put an overclocked M3 Ultra in there and just overclocked it and
01:04:29 ◼ ► said, well, it's overclocked, but the extra heat produces moved away by these giant fans.
01:04:38 ◼ ► The M2 Ultra Mac Pro kind of proved that and the complete lack of updates since then proved
01:04:43 ◼ ► So I'm sad, but it's good to have some kind of rumor based closure for this and M5 Max Max
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01:06:54 ◼ ► In 2021, Tim Cook was talking to Kara Swisher for the New York Times, and we discussed this
01:07:17 ◼ ► In the transcript, because this is a podcast, you can listen to the podcast, Tim Cook says,
01:07:23 ◼ ► He's like, 10 more years, I, and then he interrupts himself and changes course on that sentence.
01:07:31 ◼ ► Anyway, the point is that Tim Cook, who is a very careful speaker, managed to not carefully
01:07:37 ◼ ► speak in a sentence and started one sentence and decided to turn in a different direction
01:08:17 ◼ ► So on the 14th of November of this year, the Financial Times wrote under a four-person byline,
01:08:23 ◼ ► Tim Bradshaw, Steve Morris, Michael Acton in San Francisco, and Daniel Thomas in London.
01:08:27 ◼ ► Apple is stepping up its succession planning efforts as it prepares for Tim Cook to step
01:08:33 ◼ ► Several people familiar with discussions inside the tech group told the Financial Times that
01:08:37 ◼ ► its board and senior executives have reasonably intensified preparations for Cook to hand over
01:08:42 ◼ ► John Turnis, Apple's senior vice president of hardware engineering and former best friend
01:08:46 ◼ ► best friend of John Syracuse, is widely seen as Cook's most likely successor, although no
01:08:52 ◼ ► People close to Apple say the long plan transition is not related to the company's current performance
01:09:01 ◼ ► The company is likely to name a new CEO before, excuse me, unlikely to name a new CEO before
01:09:10 ◼ ► An announcement early in the year would give its new leadership team time to settle in ahead
01:09:15 ◼ ► of its big annual keynote events, its developer conference in June, and its iPhone launch in
01:09:21 ◼ ► These people said that although preparations have intensified, the timing of any announcement
01:09:26 ◼ ► So Gruber's take is, I don't think there are many people, if any, outside of Apple's top
01:09:31 ◼ ► executive team and board of directors who have any insight into Cook's thinking on this.
01:09:35 ◼ ► That, quote, several people, quote, spoke to the Financial Times about this, says to me that
01:09:39 ◼ ► those sources, members of the board, did so with Cook's blessing and that they want this
01:09:43 ◼ ► announcement to be no more than a little surprising. I would also bet that Cook moves into the role
01:09:47 ◼ ► of executive chairman and will still play a significant, if not leading role for the company
01:09:51 ◼ ► when it comes to domestic and international politics, especially with regard to the monster-in-chief.
01:10:08 ◼ ► Apple's corporate governance guidance, excuse me, guidelines say a director may not stand for
01:10:18 ◼ ► Apple is unlikely to name a new CEO before its next earnings report in late January, according
01:10:26 ◼ ► There's one potential wrinkle. Apple typically releases the proxy materials for a shareholder
01:10:30 ◼ ► meeting in mid-January, and that filing would need to indicate that Cook is up for election
01:10:34 ◼ ► as chairman. That would be before Apple's next earnings report in late January, so the specific
01:10:39 ◼ ► timing of how this might all play out remains to be seen. It is unclear if Cook would become
01:10:44 ◼ ► chairman or executive chairman in the former role. He would focus more on managing the board
01:10:47 ◼ ► and corporate governance. In the latter role, Cook would remain more involved in Apple's
01:10:51 ◼ ► day-to-day operations and decision-making, which could help ease the transition to a new CEO.
01:10:55 ◼ ► Alternatively, Apple could opt out, excuse me, could opt to exempt Levinson from the age policy
01:11:02 ◼ ► as it did for the now 77-year-old director Ron Sugar last year. Apple could also elect someone
01:11:08 ◼ ► This, I feel like, is actually some of the most disappointing news for this week, even worse
01:11:23 ◼ ► oh, Tim Cook might step down with Zoey's next year, and let's talk about the timing, let's
01:11:26 ◼ ► talk about the 75 years old, blah, blah, blah. The idea that he would step down, and I talked
01:11:30 ◼ ► about this the last time we talked about Ternus transition, that he would step down, but stay
01:11:34 ◼ ► on as chairman. That's the last thing I want. And I understand. I understand why people are
01:11:42 ◼ ► talking about that, because it makes sense. Here's the thing. When you are going to take over
01:11:47 ◼ ► as the new CEO of a company, if a company is doing terribly, you have a lot of political
01:11:54 ◼ ► capital to make lots of changes. Like Steve Jobs at Apple in 1997. The company is practically
01:11:59 ◼ ► bankrupt. He cancels a million programs, changes everything radically. Obviously, he was the
01:12:04 ◼ ► co-founder coming back, so that gives you a lot of political capital. But also, when things
01:12:07 ◼ ► are bad, people are willing to do things radically different. Apple, as all these things report,
01:12:17 ◼ ► Like, the company is not doing poorly financially. So you get a new CEO in there. And what I want
01:12:23 ◼ ► is that new CEO to do many, many things different than Tim Cook. But if Tim Cook, I think he should
01:12:30 ◼ ► retire to an island and just forget about Apple and just go away. But if he's like, no, I'm going to be
01:12:35 ◼ ► on the board for 10 years because I'm 65 and I could be there until I'm 75. In fact, I'm going to be the
01:12:39 ◼ ► chairman of the board. I'm going to be overseeing lots of things, especially our interactions with the
01:12:42 ◼ ► government. I want to say, no, Tim, go away. Let somebody else make different decisions.
01:12:49 ◼ ► Now, I have no idea if John Ternus agrees with everything Tim Cook has done or hates all of it
01:12:53 ◼ ► or like, I have no idea. But I do know that if you're the new CEO and the old CEO that took your
01:12:58 ◼ ► company from like $350 billion to like $4 trillion is still there as the executive chairman and is still
01:13:04 ◼ ► having like an active role in day to day things, it is next to impossible to come in and day one and
01:13:08 ◼ ► say, guess what? We're doing a lot of things different around here, everybody. And let me tell
01:13:12 ◼ ► you, we're doing this, this, this and this. And Tim is like, like, I don't know how like the the
01:13:18 ◼ ► corporate structure works in terms of the balance of power between the board and the CEO. That's
01:13:23 ◼ ► different in every company. And I'm not familiar with the intricacies. But I do know if he hangs around
01:13:32 ◼ ► I'm still going to be in this program saying Tim Cook should go. Should he leave a CEO? He already
01:13:37 ◼ ► did that. He needs to leave Apple so that we can have different decisions be made. And this is more
01:13:42 ◼ ► upsetting to me than the Mac Pro. Really? Yeah, because the Mac Pro, it's like, you know, products
01:13:47 ◼ ► come. First of all, John Ternus is supposedly a fan of the Mac Pro, but you think he's going to bring
01:13:51 ◼ ► the Mac Pro back with Tim Cook staring over his shoulder and saying, no, I saw the spreadsheets,
01:13:54 ◼ ► no Mac Pro, John. But that's again, that's the least that's the least of our concerns about Tim
01:13:59 ◼ ► Cook. I want so many things that he did need to be exactly reversed, totally the opposite. And you
01:14:05 ◼ ► can't come in and say, well, our previous CEO is like the best CEO we've ever had in terms of financial
01:14:09 ◼ ► return, but I'm going to do everything differently. That's not that's hard to do. So I'm sad about this.
01:14:16 ◼ ► I am actually very, very happy about this. I have a different take. All right. So obviously,
01:14:23 ◼ ► I agree with John that, yeah, I want Tim Cook out. I've been very vocal about that. And I think
01:14:28 ◼ ► he should go go play golf somewhere or football. He can buy an island. So many things he could do.
01:14:32 ◼ ► Yeah. And we know Tim Cook is such an exciting character. He's going to do none of those things.
01:14:36 ◼ ► He does like football. He could go pay out the contract for that. Did he already do that? Sorry.
01:14:41 ◼ ► Whatever he wants to happen with Auburn football, he can go do that. So first of all, I definitely
01:14:47 ◼ ► agree with John Gruber that like the way this is sourced and the way this is coming out on the
01:14:53 ◼ ► Financial Times with four different people bylining it with a lot of sourcing for something that's
01:15:13 ◼ ► the good thing about a leadership transition is that it shakes stuff up and that it isn't always going
01:15:19 ◼ ► to be good. It isn't always going to be smooth, but it shakes stuff up. Now, I do agree with John that
01:15:26 ◼ ► like Tim staying on for a long time in a powerful position is not good. And it's not good for the next
01:15:40 ◼ ► If I were John Ternus in that situation, like you don't want to be undermined by the old CEO still
01:15:45 ◼ ► being very involved and very powerful. But Tim Cook also is a very carefully planned and measured person,
01:15:54 ◼ ► somewhat to a fault maybe. And so I actually wouldn't worry about that being very likely.
01:16:01 ◼ ► I think if Cook, if the rumor is that Cook might step down into some kind of board chair position,
01:16:07 ◼ ► whether it's executive or non-executive chairman of the board, I think it's more likely that that
01:16:13 ◼ ► would really just be to ease Wall Street in the same way. That's what Steve Jobs did when he handed
01:16:19 ◼ ► the reins over to Tim Cook. The idea was, look, we're going to make this look like everything is
01:16:26 ◼ ► just smoothly transitioning. And it might be, but I don't think that would be a long-term plan for Tim
01:16:36 ◼ ► I don't want to have to wait an extra two years of him sitting there to ease. I agree with you about
01:16:39 ◼ ► the easing transition. That's totally, I mean, they did the same thing with Jeff, easing Jeff Williams out
01:16:43 ◼ ► and apparently easing the CFO out or maybe even easing JG out. Like that's how they work. With
01:16:49 ◼ ► the exception of the forestall thing, Tim Cook's leadership has been very sort of easing the
01:16:53 ◼ ► transition. But what it does mean is that Ternus can't come in on day one and do seven decisions
01:16:58 ◼ ► that are the exact opposite of what Tim Cook was doing. But that's what he needs to do to get out.
01:17:03 ◼ ► Like, I don't want to wait two years to like, oh, investors are happy now. So now you turn it like,
01:17:09 ◼ ► and also it's like, it would be an embarrassment for Tim Cook. Like here's the, do you remember the
01:17:12 ◼ ► speech Jobs gave to Cook as, as retold by, I think, Cook? Just do what's right. He's talking to,
01:17:17 ◼ ► uh, he's talking to Steve Jobs on like his deathbed or whatever. And Steve Jobs is like,
01:17:21 ◼ ► never ask yourself what I would do. Just do the right thing. Uh, and for better or for worse,
01:17:25 ◼ ► uh, eventually that's what Tim Cook did. He clearly started doing things that he thought were the right
01:17:30 ◼ ► thing. He certainly never worried about what Steve Jobs would think. Right. In the beginning,
01:17:34 ◼ ► in the beginning, Tim Cook was a little, like, it was a little bit shy of like making radical movies.
01:17:38 ◼ ► In the beginning, I feel, I feel like he lived under the shadow of Steve Jobs for a while,
01:17:42 ◼ ► but eventually he started making Tim Cook moves, which is what Jobs said to do. But that's,
01:17:47 ◼ ► that's one of those monkey's paw curses. Like, don't worry about what I would do. Just do what
01:17:52 ◼ ► you think is right. But what, if what you think is right is not right, then that's advice for you to
01:17:56 ◼ ► say, well, I, nothing constrains me. I'm the CEO and this is what I think we should do. Therefore,
01:18:00 ◼ ► we should do it. And you just live and die by your own thing. There is something to be said for
01:18:04 ◼ ► having some consideration of the legacy of the company when making decisions to try to keep you
01:18:09 ◼ ► grounded in some way, to not say we're going to be, we're going to sell, you know, homemade yogurt or
01:18:14 ◼ ► something. Now it's like, well, we're a computer company. It's like, well, I feel like the yogurt
01:18:17 ◼ ► thing is the right thing to do. It's like, well, there's a right and a wrong answer sometimes and
01:18:20 ◼ ► yogurt ain't it. So, and you know, Tim Cook didn't sell yogurt, but he did a lot of things, especially with
01:18:26 ◼ ► the app store and the political stuff. And again, specifically calling out, I think he'll hang
01:18:30 ◼ ► around to, to interface with the administration. That's the job he's worst at. And in my personal
01:18:35 ◼ ► opinion, maybe not in wall street's opinion, maybe not in Tim Cook's opinion, but like,
01:18:39 ◼ ► wouldn't you like to see on day one an entirely different policy towards the U S government? But
01:18:43 ◼ ► that is absolutely not going to happen. All right. See, and this, this is where I think you're not
01:18:48 ◼ ► considering the reality of the situation. I don't think, even if Tim Cook was, I was going to say
01:18:56 ◼ ► hit by a bus, but the given that this is episode six, six, six, I don't want to put that out there.
01:18:59 ◼ ► Even if Tim Cook was immediately, he immediately retired and was not part of the board at all.
01:19:04 ◼ ► I still would say no way can the next CEO come in swinging because this is Apple in 2026 or whatever
01:19:14 ◼ ► it will be. Apple is a financial juggernaut. They represent a huge, they represent trillions of
01:19:22 ◼ ► dollars. They are massive. No one is going to walk into that company and start swinging and making
01:19:29 ◼ ► massive changes like that in their first few months. It's the line that everyone's been putting in their
01:19:33 ◼ ► articles about this. What good is having F you money? If you never say F you, that's the, that's the
01:19:37 ◼ ► cliche. This will be the cliche of our times. If anybody has F you money, it's Apple. Who's going to,
01:19:42 ◼ ► who's going to, this is, I'm making your argument for you. Who's going to stand up and be the one to
01:19:46 ◼ ► say F you. It should be Apple. It's not currently with new leadership. It could be, I agree with you.
01:19:51 ◼ ► It probably won't be, but like Tim Cook hanging around and looking over people's shoulders. There's
01:19:56 ◼ ► no way the new CEO is immediately going to do things that essentially embarrassed the former CEO,
01:20:00 ◼ ► not just because it would spook Wall Street, which it would, but also because like you don't get to be
01:20:05 ◼ ► next in line to be CEO without having some kind of a relationship with the current CEO,
01:20:11 ◼ ► Even if Ternus is the new CEO and he gets in there and Tim Cook says, do whatever you want,
01:20:15 ◼ ► man. And Ternus walks in, he still can't, you know, for example, some of the things you're,
01:20:20 ◼ ► that you're suggesting, which I agree with things like, you know, app store policy. If you walk in
01:20:25 ◼ ► there on day one and you make major changes there, you could cost yourself pretty big in the next
01:20:30 ◼ ► quarterly earnings for things like high growth areas, like your services area. If you screw that up,
01:20:35 ◼ ► or if you are too, too quick or too sudden or too rash about it, you could cost the company billions
01:20:41 ◼ ► of dollars in a high growth area that can tank the stock significantly. And then think about all the
01:20:46 ◼ ► rich people who are going to lose a bunch of money as a result of all that. Like, so when you think
01:20:50 ◼ ► about like the pressures on this job, it is a juggernaut of a company in a juggernaut of a
01:20:57 ◼ ► financial system. Anyone who gets into that job is going to have to very slowly turn that wheel.
01:21:04 ◼ ► They're not going to, it's like trying to turn a cruise ship on a dime. Like you're not going to do
01:21:10 ◼ ► it. It needs time and space to make changes. They have to very slightly course adjust. Like it's not
01:21:16 ◼ ► going to be somebody coming in there and doing anything noteworthy in a one year time span.
01:21:27 ◼ ► this is what I talked about in the episode where I was bemoaning the limitations of the appeasement
01:21:31 ◼ ► policy. If you do literally anything that is not pleasing to the administration, it is as if you
01:21:37 ◼ ► have done everything against them. Because that's what appeasement is. You keep them happy and they
01:21:42 ◼ ► can get unhappy really quickly. So let's say John Ternus declines to go to the state dinner with the
01:21:48 ◼ ► murdering guy from Saudi Arabia. That would be front page news headlines, stock would tank. And
01:21:53 ◼ ► it's like, I just didn't go to a dinner. How slowly can I turn the wheel on this giant ship? It's like,
01:21:58 ◼ ► sorry, with the appeasement policy, if you do literally anything except for appease them,
01:22:03 ◼ ► we've decided you are, you are no longer a friend to the administration because that's how
01:22:06 ◼ ► authoritarianism works. And so that's why I say like on that particular issue, there is no avoiding the
01:22:11 ◼ ► FU. So just do the FU, but they're probably not going to, which means that this is one of the,
01:22:16 ◼ ► the, the timeline wise, one of the hopes. And one of the things that I have discussed is that
01:22:21 ◼ ► Tim Cook could stay out the rest of the Trump term and eat all of the crap and put all the sin on him
01:22:27 ◼ ► and then have the sin leave with him. And the new person can get a clean slate. You know what I mean?
01:22:31 ◼ ► Now that's not going to happen if this happens next year. So it necessarily taints the incoming CEO
01:22:37 ◼ ► who seemingly has no choice, but to continue the stupid appeasement policy. Otherwise, you know,
01:22:49 ◼ ► a few money, like they should say a few, but I agree with you that they probably won't,
01:22:53 ◼ ► especially if Tim Cook is still there. So, um, I just, I guess I just hope that Tim Cook wrote out
01:22:59 ◼ ► these last few years, however long Trump sticks around and then cleanly transitioned after that and
01:23:05 ◼ ► really got the hell out of the company and let a new person go in and do entirely new things.
01:23:15 ◼ ► could be playing a role here. Um, but keep in mind, like Tim Cook's actions suggest that he is a Trump
01:23:24 ◼ ► supporter and that he uses Trump to get what he wants. So let's, let's not try to pretend that like
01:23:30 ◼ ► Tim Cook is trying to like minimize, like make a plan to minimize Apple's exposure to Trump. No,
01:23:34 ◼ ► Tim has put Apple directly into Trump so that they can get Trump to do things that are convenient for
01:23:40 ◼ ► them. Like, I don't think it's like a, a minimize the damage plan. I think it's, you keep Tim around
01:23:45 ◼ ► to keep cozying up to Trump, to keep getting things that benefit Apple. Like it's not about harm
01:23:50 ◼ ► reduction. It's about opportunistically getting what they want. Like look at all the preferential
01:23:56 ◼ ► treatment Apple gets as a result of this cozying up. It's, this is not Tim quietly saying,
01:24:02 ◼ ► screw you to Trump in the background and then, you know, going and doing the minimum required.
01:24:06 ◼ ► This is Tim stepping up to get favors and it's working. Tim Cook is a Trump supporter. I hate
01:24:13 ◼ ► to tell everybody. Anyway, it isn't an angle of like, let's try to, you know, strategically plan out
01:24:18 ◼ ► Trump, but, and I will gladly say Trump's name as much as possible on episode six, six, six,
01:24:23 ◼ ► hoping for things like that to happen. Um, nice. I'm, I'm hoping that what happens here is Tim Cook
01:24:29 ◼ ► sticks around long enough to keep being the, the Trump sink. He is the Trump agent. He takes all the
01:24:37 ◼ ► hate about Trump from people who believe in facts and decency. Do you think he still goes to these,
01:24:43 ◼ ► the dinners with the murderers while John Ternus doesn't have to, even though John Ternus is the CEO?
01:24:48 ◼ ► I think so. I agree. This is not necessarily guaranteeing that Cook is stepping down next
01:25:01 ◼ ► Right. And so like maybe, maybe they can swing it such that Cook sticks around for the rest of Trump's
01:25:06 ◼ ► term. And then maybe John Ternus takes over after that. That, but that's probably at least a few
01:25:10 ◼ ► years out. So like, that's probably not within this timeline. So I don't know what's going to go on
01:25:15 ◼ ► there, but I'm hoping that once Cook is no longer CEO, I'm hoping that that gives Ternus or whoever,
01:25:25 ◼ ► sounds like Ternus, a new chance to, to have a new take on that relationship and, and not,
01:25:30 ◼ ► and actually support Apple for what its core values really seem to be for most of its life and not
01:25:36 ◼ ► what it has been this past year. Um, that being said, so setting aside all, all that BS,
01:25:42 ◼ ► thinking about a CEO transition at Apple, I don't know that much about John Ternus. We certainly
01:25:49 ◼ ► don't know what he would be like as a CEO because he has not been a CEO. We do know that he, he leads a
01:25:56 ◼ ► very successful division at Apple, the hardware, hardware engineering division. He, like his division
01:26:01 ◼ ► is just the rock stars of Apple right now. They are, they execute well. And if you look back, like
01:26:08 ◼ ► when Tim Cook was made CEO, he came from operations. And at that time operations was the rockstar
01:26:15 ◼ ► division of Apple. They were doing great. They were bringing the company forward. And that's what
01:26:20 ◼ ► John Ternus's hardware division has been doing. They are top of their game, executing great, you know,
01:26:25 ◼ ► bringing great products out and making the company very successful with their advances, you know,
01:26:30 ◼ ► among other things, things happening. So I'm actually very excited to see like the next chapter
01:26:35 ◼ ► of Apple, if it's led by John Ternus, even though I don't know what kind of CEO he would be, I'm a lot
01:26:40 ◼ ► more excited about somebody who seems to like love computer hardware than somebody who seems to love
01:26:46 ◼ ► spreadsheets and football and Donald Trump. All right. Leave football out of it, but otherwise I agree.
01:26:51 ◼ ► And so like Apple needs a product leader. And ever since Jobs passed away, they haven't had one.
01:26:58 ◼ ► Ternus might be that. He certainly has a much better chance of being that than anyone in the
01:27:04 ◼ ► Cook regime ever was. What's also interesting, and I think a little bit exciting, and I don't,
01:27:15 ◼ ► What also tends to happen in a CEO transition is a bunch of other turnover happens near the high
01:27:20 ◼ ► ranks. I would expect a lot of other people of the old guard to retire or, or move on to a different
01:27:28 ◼ ► company. Jeff Williams already did. Jeff Williams already did. I would expect we would probably lose
01:27:33 ◼ ► at least Phil Schiller, probably also Craig Federighi. No, I don't think Craig is going.
01:27:41 ◼ ► Well, so there's a number of ways that could go. Number one, you know, and, and I don't think this
01:27:47 ◼ ► would be like on day one, but you know, what tends to happen in a transition like this is certain people
01:27:53 ◼ ► who were, who were not promoted to CEO either are upset that they weren't and, you know, might leave
01:27:59 ◼ ► as a result of that, or maybe they just don't really want to work for the new person or, you know,
01:28:08 ◼ ► Or they just think it's a good time to leave because things are in transition. I was thinking
01:28:11 ◼ ► you're retiring anyway. Now's a good time, right? This is look, that's what happened when we went
01:28:14 ◼ ► from jobs to cook. A lot of, a lot of people shuffled around. You had the forced all versus
01:28:19 ◼ ► I've problem. And then forced all was forced out. Like there was all, you know, things happen like
01:28:23 ◼ ► that. And while I'm not like wishing in particular for any of these other people to go, because I
01:28:27 ◼ ► actually like a lot of their work, I am excited about the prospect of turnover because these,
01:28:34 ◼ ► these are people who have been in this upper echelon of Apple leadership for a long time.
01:28:38 ◼ ► They're all nearing retirement age, although not super close to it. Like Federighi is, I think like in
01:28:44 ◼ ► his late fifties still, Schiller is like 61 or 62, something like that. So like, we're not super close
01:28:49 ◼ ► to like, you know, you know, cook is 65. So that's like, that's a lot closer to retirement age. But
01:28:55 ◼ ► I think what we will see is in the next one to five years, I think we're going to see a lot of
01:29:01 ◼ ► people on that apple.com slash leadership page, retire, and those positions will turn over.
01:29:07 ◼ ► We've already started to see that. It's not just Jeff Williams. It's that CFO that I can't remember
01:29:10 ◼ ► the name of, JG getting shuffled around for cause. And like, there's been like, as those people age,
01:29:16 ◼ ► they're coming up again. This is definitely an inflection point for people to rotate out. Like
01:29:20 ◼ ► that's the thing with new CEO, especially we don't even know who it is. We can attach all our hopes and
01:29:23 ◼ ► dreams to it. And, uh, regardless of how we think the forced all and I have transition went,
01:29:29 ◼ ► you always hope that these transitions are going to take place and that the new person in that
01:29:33 ◼ ► position will be better than the old in the ways that you care about, but sometimes they're worse.
01:29:37 ◼ ► And so it's always a risky period. Like on the other hand, like I do always feel like the,
01:29:41 ◼ ► the jobs to cook transition, it was like, I don't think anyone minded because we kind of like the
01:29:49 ◼ ► direction jobs was taking things, but I always felt kind of disappointed that it took like,
01:29:53 ◼ ► three years for Apple to look like it had a new CEO. You know what I mean? Like, and again,
01:29:59 ◼ ► no one complains about that, but it's like, but we liked what jobs is doing. So we liked that Tim
01:30:02 ◼ ► Cook continued down that road, even though, even though we kept quoting jobs saying, just do what
01:30:05 ◼ ► you want to do. He totally didn't. He did what jobs wanted to do for years. Uh, and again, when that's,
01:30:12 ◼ ► when that's something mostly you agree with, it seems fine, but I hope it doesn't take that long this
01:30:16 ◼ ► time. I hope I don't feel like Tim Cook's Apple sticks around for four more years because the new CEO is too
01:30:22 ◼ ► cautious to do anything different. I know the big ship turns slowly. Don't spook wall street,
01:30:25 ◼ ► yada, yada, but I hope it does something new. And obviously attaching my hopes and dreams,
01:30:29 ◼ ► Hey, uh, get someone in user interface design who knows anything about user interface design.
01:30:34 ◼ ► Uh, you know, update your products more often, be more decisive about your, your products. Uh,
01:30:40 ◼ ► you know, bring back the Mac pro like all my play the hits, right? I got all the things that I want
01:30:43 ◼ ► change the relationship with the app store, unify your operating system across all the regions to be
01:30:47 ◼ ► more open because everyone's making you do that. So why are you fighting in every possible,
01:30:50 ◼ ► like there's so many things, but there's no guarantee that any of those decisions from a new CEO will go
01:30:56 ◼ ► our way. And maybe new CEO will come in and screw something else up. Like say, Hey, podcast, let's
01:31:01 ◼ ► screw that up now. So please don't, you know, this, I think I'm just the, I'm pessimistic because the
01:31:06 ◼ ► times we're living in, but like, I do have lots of hopes and dreams for a new CEO. Lots of things they
01:31:11 ◼ ► could do differently. If I could sit down with a new CEO, I could do it like a 10 bullet point thing,
01:31:16 ◼ ► do these 10 things in the next five years, but they have their own stuff they're going to do.
01:31:21 ◼ ► And maybe it has zero overlap with mine. And it's a scary, it's a scary time. Like as, as much as we're
01:31:26 ◼ ► annoyed with Tim cook, it's Tim cook's apple is such a known quantity at this point, uh, that they're,
01:31:31 ◼ ► you know, going completely into the unknown. It's like, well, surely it's got to be better,
01:31:35 ◼ ► right? Surely things have to improve. And it's like, well, it could make certain things worse.
01:31:43 ◼ ► it's like the Peter principle. Like, great. Keep that guy in charge of hardware. He's doing
01:31:46 ◼ ► great. It's like, but actually he's going to be in charge of the whole company. It's like when they
01:31:48 ◼ ► put Ive in charge of, of hardware design and user interface design, it's like, well, I mean, he's
01:31:54 ◼ ► made some great products, but does he know anything about user interface design? It turns out not
01:31:58 ◼ ► really. No, he didn't. So like making, making the hardware guy, again, like there's no one person
01:32:04 ◼ ► who embodies everything, right? You know, jobs couldn't do a whole bunch of these things too. They all
01:32:08 ◼ ► have specific skills, right? So it's just a question of like figuring out, like we always
01:32:13 ◼ ► talk about like, does, does cook know how to figure out whether a high level executive is going to be
01:32:19 ◼ ► good. And especially early on in cook's career is a bunch of like hires that flamed out a couple of
01:32:24 ◼ ► them in retail. That one was that paper master guy and like Silicon, like it's hard. It's hard to do
01:32:30 ◼ ► that. Like no one, you know, even jobs hire people who turned out not to be great and whatever. Like,
01:32:34 ◼ ► so it's just, it's just such an unknown. So I'm, I'm, I think I'm, I mean, obviously I'm
01:32:39 ◼ ► excited for cook to leave, but I'm kind of more scared about what the future holds because not
01:32:43 ◼ ► because I want, don't want things to change because I do, but I fear that they're going to change for
01:32:50 ◼ ► Yep. Really. Honestly, I find this very exciting. I think the Tim cook era is surprisingly to me
01:33:00 ◼ ► almost over. I really thought that he would at least last through the Trump term and this is
01:33:05 ◼ ► looking like he's probably not going to. And, and I hope, you know, look, I don't wish ill on the man.
01:33:10 ◼ ► I hope he's not like sick or something. Um, but I am happy for his era of leadership to be passed
01:33:16 ◼ ► along to somebody else because I think he has taken Apple as far as he can. He's had a number of pretty
01:33:21 ◼ ► big things that I wish they didn't do a number of big directions that they, that they didn't go in
01:33:34 ◼ ► I don't want it. I didn't see it. So I don't know, but it's a series that, uh, that everyone loved
01:33:38 ◼ ► until like the final season when everyone was like, and this feel like this is the final season of King
01:33:42 ◼ ► cook and Tim cook and everyone's like, I mean, that's like many TV shows to be honest, um, including
01:33:46 ◼ ► some of my favorite TV shows. But anyway, I'm excited to see turnover because we've had the same
01:33:51 ◼ ► leaders for a very long time and you're right. Turnover is scary because it is risky, but what
01:33:56 ◼ ► it also tends to bring is fresh perspectives, new blood, new excitement, new directions, and new ideas.
01:34:03 ◼ ► And that's something that Apple could use. You know, they are very successful financially and many of
01:34:10 ◼ ► their products are great, but they could use some new ideas and some fresh blood and some fresh leadership.
01:34:15 ◼ ► So I find this very exciting, even though it is risky. Yes. You know, do things that are scary. Like it is risky.
01:34:29 ◼ ► I should do a series of blog posts called Apple turnover. Isn't that a good pun? And then maybe Apple turnaround after that.
01:34:41 ◼ ► Thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of the perks of ATP membership is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic.
01:34:51 ◼ ► Every single week, we bring you extra content just for members in Overtime, in addition to our monthly specials and things like that.
01:34:58 ◼ ► So this week on Overtime, we're going to be talking about the App Store on the web and Apple's other web apps recently.
01:35:05 ◼ ► You can join to listen atp.fm slash join. Thanks, everybody. We'll talk to you next week.
01:35:49 ◼ ► So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-
01:36:19 ◼ ► Let me back up a smidge. When I was in school, in grade school, we've talked about this in bits and parts throughout the years. Several of the schools I went through used Macs. And I thought they were very cool and very pretty. I didn't want one, but I thought they were fun.
01:36:39 ◼ ► And at some point or another, presumably somebody pointed out to me or maybe I stumbled upon HyperCard. And HyperCard to a 10-year-old was, this is a way to make a choose-your-own-adventure game, right? And it was amazing. It was incredibly cool.
01:36:56 ◼ ► HyperCard to this day, even as someone who never really used a Mac growing up other than in school, is one of my favorite pieces of software I've ever used. It was just so cool and so approachable, even for a 10-year-old.
01:37:09 ◼ ► Well, Declan has apparently discovered, quote-unquote, HyperCard. And by that I mean, I noticed that he's been obsessed with doing something on his Chromebook recently. I'm like, what's going on there, bud?
01:37:23 ◼ ► He said, well, I forget exactly the words he used to describe it. But he said, I'm making a rage bait game. This is apparently what the grade schoolers think is the funniest thing in the world, is making people grumbly and upset and angry by, you know, doing, by asking silly questions and doing convoluted things.
01:37:43 ◼ ► But what he's doing is, well, actually, let me ask. John, what is HyperCard for Declan?
01:37:52 ◼ ► All right. Because you wrote it in the show notes without a capital C, which I corrected.
01:37:59 ◼ ► Anyway, intercaps. Intercaps were big in the early Mac days. Capital H, Hyper, capital C, card.
01:38:04 ◼ ► Anyway, what is HyperCard for kids these days? I'm not up on the – I mean, unless he's using, like, whatever Google's PowerPoint equivalent is to essentially make a slideshow.
01:38:26 ◼ ► It is. It is. It is. And I don't mean any offense by that. I truly don't. As I said, I loved HyperCard. This is a very different animal.
01:38:33 ◼ ► But in the end of the day, what he's basically doing is making a HyperCard – what was it? Stack? Is that right?
01:38:42 ◼ ► Yeah. So he's making a HyperCard stack – again, my words, not his – in order to mess with his friends.
01:38:58 ◼ ► See, it's similar to what I would have done at the time. I think I was a little less nefarious, but that's okay.
01:39:05 ◼ ► But I just – I really thought it was adorable that here he is. He's spending hours building up this choose-your-own-adventure rage-baity HyperCard stack.
01:39:19 ◼ ► Is there a programming thing in Google Slides, or is he just using links to other slides? Like, is there the equivalent of HyperTalk?
01:39:26 ◼ ► Links to other slides, yeah. I mean, what is – I'm not sure if the HyperCard is the analogy.
01:39:31 ◼ ► He's basically making web pages without web technology because he was just linking from one slide to the other.
01:39:35 ◼ ► That's fair, yeah. But I guess the vibe of it just felt like HyperCard to me because he's drawing buttons, you know.
01:39:45 ◼ ► Right, and he's kind of drawing buttons, and then he yells at me every time because I see, you know, a big rectangle or round rect, really, as a button.
01:39:57 ◼ ► You have to tap on the Word, and he gets cranky at me every time because I always forget.
01:40:04 ◼ ► Mm-hmm. But anyways, I just thought it was very, very funny that here it was, the same sorts – vaguely, if you squint –
01:40:12 ◼ ► the same thing that I was doing in, what, the early 90s is effectively happening again in 2025.
01:40:42 ◼ ► But it was basically, like, a Macs are better than PCs because PCs don't have GUIs HyperCard stack,