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668: So Happy for All Parties Involved

 

00:00:00   All right, I had to get a new TV.

00:00:01   Oh?

00:00:02   Why did you have to get a new TV?

00:00:04   Did the other one break?

00:00:05   My family forced me to get a new TV.

00:00:08   On account of what?

00:00:08   So, you know, this is my old LG C7 OLED that we've had for, you know, since 2017 when it came out.

00:00:18   Throughout COVID, we played a lot of Minecraft on this TV.

00:00:22   And so it has, for five years, had the Minecraft Hearts HUD burned into the bottom corner of it or so.

00:00:30   And so, you know, every time there's like a gray scene, you see like this outline of this row of hearts and a few other things.

00:00:37   Well, anyway, so, you know, that burn-in area has shifted into greater intensity, I would say, over time.

00:00:45   And then what ultimately has driven my family crazy recently is that in the middle of the screen now, it started to develop what appears to be a large green splotch.

00:00:58   Which I, is that just like maybe like the blue subpixels wearing out or something?

00:01:01   That just might be something breaking.

00:01:03   Like you're not watching something that has a big splotch there, right?

00:01:06   Well, it isn't pure green pixels.

00:01:08   It's like the hue is shifting green for the content being displayed in the middle of the TV.

00:01:13   Yeah, that sounds like something different than regular people.

00:01:15   It's like the green, the green subpixels tend to wear out and become apparent that they're wearing out faster.

00:01:20   But I don't understand the blotch.

00:01:21   That doesn't make any sense to me.

00:01:22   Yeah, like, and so it had grown into about the middle 30% of the TV where like everything that is being, that was being watched on it was like, you know, just slowly turning green and yellow.

00:01:36   And it was just getting really ugly and like very distracting.

00:01:39   Yeah, yeah, it's time for new TV.

00:01:40   Yeah, so it's like, all right, so my family was finally like, just please, can we please get our new TV?

00:01:44   So Black Friday took advantage, got the LG G5 to replace it.

00:01:49   Did you get it yet?

00:01:50   I did.

00:01:51   So it came, you know, last night.

00:01:53   I got it.

00:01:54   I set it up today.

00:01:55   And immediately ran into a solvable problem, but a problem nonetheless.

00:02:00   Look at the box.

00:02:01   I'm like, where's the feet?

00:02:03   Oh, I should have told you they want you to wall mount a G5.

00:02:06   Yeah, they don't come with feet.

00:02:07   Oh, interesting.

00:02:08   The G whatever series is always like, you're going to wall mount this, right?

00:02:12   Occasionally, they have had an option where you can get a stand during some years, but I think this is not a stand year.

00:02:17   And it doesn't matter because their stands usually suck anyway.

00:02:19   Yeah, so anyway, it turns out my outgoing TV, I had mounted on VESA feet.

00:02:26   At some point, we had a sound bar that was too tall, and when using the TV's regular feet, the sound bar would intrude into the TV.

00:02:36   Because, John, I know you love when people do that.

00:02:38   And so, at some point, a couple years back, I had bought VESA feet to lift it up a little bit higher.

00:02:44   And so, I just took those off, put them on the back of the LG.

00:02:48   Oh, got to go buy some screws, because there's different size screws on the...

00:02:54   Different size?

00:02:54   Like, different depth, you mean?

00:02:55   No, so, the VESA-compatible screws on the LG are, like, only, like, in, like, the high-up section, like, the high-up in the middle section.

00:03:04   But down low, where the feet have to attach, they actually use smaller screws.

00:03:09   But fortunately, ChatGPT came to my rescue.

00:03:11   I did not verify anything it said.

00:03:13   I took exactly what it said, and I went right to the hardware store, and I said,

00:03:17   Can I have some M4 screws, please?

00:03:18   Got some screws, came back, screwed it in, totally fine.

00:03:21   So, thank you, ChatGPT.

00:03:22   No thank you to LG for not including feet.

00:03:25   But, problem solved.

00:03:27   Now I have a new TV, and now I have all sorts of settings to investigate and tweak over the next few weeks.

00:03:32   All right, let's do some follow-up.

00:03:35   And I am loving that suddenly I am not the only person putting Vision Pro-related things into the show notes.

00:03:44   And instead, it's John, or maybe it's Marco, and I will fall over if that's the case.

00:03:49   It's definitely not me.

00:03:50   Exactly.

00:03:51   But it's John who put something in the show notes.

00:03:53   John, apparently you have been pontificating and thinking about light seal sizes.

00:03:58   Yeah, because, like I said, in my briefing with Apple, I was talking about light seal fitting things or whatever,

00:04:03   and they mentioned that the sizing, like the letter number codes for the various light shields are intentionally obscured to not make people feel self-conscious about the shape of their face or head.

00:04:17   And I thought that was interesting, and then apparently someone on Reddit has, of course, decoded what those letters and numbers mean.

00:04:24   Again, it's basically just a look-up table, but someone has basically brute-forced it and figured out what it means.

00:04:29   All right, so with that in mind, Avalanche on Reddit says,

00:04:31   after a lot of reading and experimenting, especially with Apple's Vision Pro size help tool,

00:04:34   I realize that most people have it slightly wrong.

00:04:37   And then John has taken the liberty of summarizing what Avalanche said, which I will read thusly.

00:04:41   The first digit refers to how far forward your forehead and cheeks protrude relative to one another.

00:04:46   The second digit refers to how deep the light seal is, likely relative to your cheek position, not your forehead.

00:04:52   If so, this is causing a lot of confusion, since most photos are taken from above.

00:04:55   W slash N refers to wide or narrow faces.

00:04:59   W adds a couple of millimeters of width at the temples.

00:05:01   W plus and N plus light seal cushions don't actually add any extra cushioning, only extra depth.

00:05:07   So there you have it.

00:05:08   Like I said, the wide and narrow is the only one that makes any sense.

00:05:11   The other number, it looks like a single number, like 23, but it's actually a two and a three.

00:05:14   And yeah, you can kind of understand why they didn't want to like say,

00:05:18   you're a big forehead person or something, right?

00:05:20   They just find the one that fits you.

00:05:22   And I still continue to think that maybe a narrow would work better on me.

00:05:25   And again, I recommend if anyone ever actually buys one of these things,

00:05:28   as opposed to just borrowing it from Casey, go to the Apple store, try on a bunch,

00:05:32   like trying on jeans, like go to the fitting room, try them on.

00:05:34   It's expensive.

00:05:35   You should figure out which size actually fits you well before you buy.

00:05:40   All right.

00:05:41   So there's also news that JPEG XL lives.

00:05:44   Colin Allen writes us, because of the PDF standard is adopting JPEG XL to support HDR images.

00:05:50   The Chromium maintainers have changed course and now are going to implement JPEG XL in the browser.

00:05:54   And they're going to do it by integrating JXL hyphen RS.

00:05:58   Yeah, we were all excited about JPEG XL and Apple support for it.

00:06:01   But then kind of cold water got poured on it by Google saying, yeah, we looked at it and we kind of liked the format that we're using.

00:06:06   What were they using, AVIF or something?

00:06:08   I forget.

00:06:08   They had another image for it that they liked better.

00:06:11   And they're like, well, we're not going to support it in Chrome.

00:06:13   And that's basically, you know, the kiss of death for a new image format if Chrome decides not to support it.

00:06:19   Thankfully, the PDF standard is dragging Google kicking and screaming to support JPEG XL.

00:06:25   And I look forward to the day when we can use this format, because as we discussed on a past episode, it has lots of advantages over today's JPEG or today's ping or other formats that we use for images these days.

00:06:35   All right.

00:06:36   And then digging back a little deeper with regard to chapter links within Apple Podcasts app.

00:06:42   Steven Robles was on the talk show recently.

00:06:45   I haven't had the time to listen yet, but it is almost next on my queue.

00:06:48   And Steven mentioned that Apple Podcasts shows links for chapters that link to some external URL only if those links are to Apple services, such as Apple Books, Apple Music, Classical, Apple Maps, Apple Music, Apple News, Apple Podcasts, Apple Sports, Stocks, Apple TV, and Shazam.

00:07:02   Steven says that this is true of chapters embedded in the MP3 or using the podcast colon chapters tag in the RSS feed.

00:07:10   And we will link to some documentation, which is not great.

00:07:14   I don't love that.

00:07:14   Yeah, I was trying to figure this out.

00:07:16   So first of all, there's some nuance to what he's saying.

00:07:18   When you add a chapter marker to a podcast, you know, obviously it exists at a timestamp and you give the chapter a text name, but you can also make that text name be a link to somewhere.

00:07:30   Like if you look in Overcast, we frequently do this with sponsors.

00:07:32   If you look in Overcast at the chapters in ATP, you'll see like, you know, sponsored by blah, blah, blah.

00:07:36   And that will be a link that you can tap that will take you to, you know, the sponsor web page or whatever.

00:07:41   But you can make any chapter title also be a link that you can tap.

00:07:45   That's what he's talking about here.

00:07:46   Not like links to a part in the podcast.

00:07:49   You can always jump to the chapters or whatever.

00:07:51   Apple's podcast app does support that.

00:07:53   Although I had a hell of a time finding where the chapters are hidden in the Apple podcast app because, again, I don't use it normally.

00:07:57   So I just launched it to confirm all this.

00:07:59   And I'm like, where are the chapters buried?

00:08:01   I could see them in like the timeline where it puts little segments in.

00:08:04   I'm like, where is the chapters list?

00:08:06   It's there.

00:08:06   It's like at the top of the screen.

00:08:07   It's like a downward facing chevron and it exposes the chapters.

00:08:10   Anyway, I loaded up one of our episodes that I know has links in some of the chapter names because I can see them in Overcast.

00:08:18   And sure enough, those links were entirely invisible, not shown at all in Apple podcast.

00:08:22   Now, I haven't confirmed the other side of this, although I trust Stephen Robles to get this right.

00:08:26   Like, if we ever have linked to an Apple property, would it then show the link?

00:08:32   I haven't seen that myself, but Stephen says he has seen it.

00:08:34   And this seems just terrible.

00:08:36   Like, why do this?

00:08:37   But whose terrible idea is this?

00:08:39   Like, if you're going to support chapters, support all the features that chapters support.

00:08:44   And don't, like, maybe they didn't support links at all.

00:08:47   That would be bad, but at least it would be consistent and uniform.

00:08:49   But to say, we're going to support links in chapter titles.

00:08:53   But only if they link to some Apple stuff, and that is some terrible, like, Microsoft or modern-day Apple App Store BS.

00:09:00   And you may be thinking, well, they're just looking out for our security, which is a thing that Apple always says when they don't want to provide third parties the ability to do something they can do.

00:09:09   Because, you know, you could put malicious links in podcast chapter links, and we don't want people tapping on those and going somewhere.

00:09:16   And it's just a fun coincidence that there was a story in the news recently about the Apple podcast app.

00:09:22   It could be enabling malicious content delivery.

00:09:24   And how?

00:09:25   By weird links inside the title.

00:09:28   I don't know.

00:09:28   Okay, you've got to read this because it's really confusing.

00:09:30   I didn't actually confirm this one manually for what I hope are obvious reasons, but it's really weird.

00:09:34   So, reading from MacRumors, which I think most of their information is based on 404 Media, security researchers have identified suspicious activity in Apple's podcast app that could be used to deliver malicious content to users based on a report by 404 Media's Joseph Cox.

00:09:47   Cox's report describes some odd experiences with the podcast app that certainly suggests something untoward is going on across both iOS and macOS versions.

00:09:56   He says that over recent months, the app has automatically launched and displayed unusual podcasts without his input.

00:10:01   On Mac and iPhone, the app has opened religion, spirituality, and education podcasts for no apparent reason, in some cases even launching themselves the moment Cox unlocked his device.

00:10:10   The podcast in question often features strange titles containing code fragments, URLs, and in some cases, attempts at cross-site scripting attacks.

00:10:16   So, the idea that it's like, okay, we don't want to show arbitrary links, we only want to show links to Apple properties because there would never be any problems with Apple podcasts and links, and lo and behold, a story specifically about weird links.

00:10:28   Now, maybe you could say this is confirming, say, this is what Apple's trying to protect you from.

00:10:31   Well, it's clear that Apple is not doing a good job of protecting us from this already.

00:10:35   I don't think the biggest danger to, again, like, what are they going to do?

00:10:40   Change Safari so you can only link to Apple properties?

00:10:42   So, we don't want people going to a web page.

00:10:43   There could be links to anywhere on that web page.

00:10:45   We can't allow that.

00:10:46   Apple, please.

00:10:48   If you're going to support chapter links, just support them all.

00:10:52   Don't do, like, URL detection and say, we would show this link, but it's not a link to Apple Books or Apple Music Classical or Maps or Music or News or Apple Podcasts or Shazam or Apple TV or stuff.

00:11:01   Like, the amount of work it requires to implement that is just, what a terrible policy.

00:11:07   I mean, again, we're all mostly isolated from the Apple Podcasts, as in the app world here because we're Overcast users and most of our listeners are as well.

00:11:15   Apple Podcasts has improved tremendously in recent years due to what we presume to be competition from Spotify and other companies, but this chapter's implementation is not great.

00:11:24   You know, I mean, Overcast has supported links since day one and chapter links since day one that it supported chapters,

00:11:31   which was pretty early.

00:11:32   I think it was a first year feature.

00:11:33   And I've never heard of this being used in a way that would suggest that there is that, like, these are somehow any more dangerous than the web, which, you know, we know how to deal with that.

00:11:44   And what these links are are links to web pages.

00:11:47   Like, they open up in the browser or in the in-app browser.

00:11:50   So, like, I'm not entirely sure why there would be any kind of, like, meaningful security angle to restricting the links in the podcast app.

00:11:59   I do see, though, like, I think what they're trying to do with the, like, you know, linking to Apple properties thing, that seems like they're working on, you know, they mentioned this in the automatic chapterization thing from about a month ago.

00:12:15   They mentioned that, like, they will start detecting when people are talking about another podcast and they will automatically put in, like, a chapter link to Apple podcasts to that podcast.

00:12:28   So, it sounds like maybe something that's made for, like, you know, cross-promotion, which, again, actually, I had this idea for Overcast at the very beginning.

00:12:36   And ever since the very beginning, Overcast has maintained a database index on certain, like, variations and normalizations of podcast page and episode URLs, figuring that, like, at some point maybe I would add this feature.

00:12:52   But it just, honestly, it never came up, like, no one ever has asked for this, and there's been a million things that have been more important than that, so I've never really gotten to it.

00:12:58   But it seems like it's part of the same effort by Apple of, like, they're trying to add cross-promotion, you know, abilities to both transcripts and to, you know, chapter links.

00:13:11   I assume that there is some kind of big publishers, like, pushing them to do this, but I haven't heard of anybody actually, like, trying to support this on the publishing side.

00:13:22   So, I don't know.

00:13:23   We'll see how it turns out.

00:13:26   It also seems like if Apple is hoping for people to put in, like, manually put in links to Apple properties only as their only chapter link, that seems optimistic in the current environment.

00:13:40   Not just tech podcasts that are, you know, heavily into other apps like mine, but, like, if you're a mass market podcast and you want to do a chapter link to some other podcast, you've got to consider all your people on Spotify and maybe on YouTube and, like, all these different platforms.

00:13:53   Like, if you're going to only publish one link, it's probably going to be to, like, your own site where you would redirect people to whatever client they want to use, not linking directly to, like, the Apple podcast page for your show.

00:14:06   So, I don't know.

00:14:06   Again, we'll see where this goes, but it is interesting.

00:14:10   Like, they're doing a lot around this area all of a sudden.

00:14:15   And so, I'm curious to see how it goes.

00:14:17   And I'm kind of hoping that small apps like mine don't get, you know, stomped out in the process of Apple fighting with everybody else, you know, all the big players.

00:14:24   We'll see.

00:14:26   Yeah, I was talking to Stephen about this on Amaston to trying to confirm it because I was like, do you have documentation on this?

00:14:31   Is this just something you experienced?

00:14:32   We'll link to the Apple docs, the link that he gave me.

00:14:35   If you read it, like, it doesn't really take great pains to point out.

00:14:39   It's like, here's where you can put, you know, links to timed links, they called them or whatever.

00:14:43   And you can do them in the RSS feed with the podcast chapter tag.

00:14:45   You can embed them in the ID3 tag, although they don't mention that.

00:14:47   But Stephen confirmed this also happens to the ones embedded in the MP3.

00:14:51   You can put them in the episode description with timestamps and all this stuff, right?

00:14:53   And they do say when you provide links in your episodes to Apple services, we'll link them, right?

00:14:59   But it doesn't say if you provide links that are not to Apple services, we won't link them.

00:15:03   Like, it's all very sunny and like, look at this great stuff you can do.

00:15:06   And it just seems bizarre to me that they would do this sort of self-serving only links to Apple properties thing and sort of weasely hide from it by not straight out saying that's what they're doing.

00:15:19   And I would imagine that most of the links that people want to put on chapter things are links to the thing they're talking about in that chapter, whatever that is.

00:15:28   Presumably, it's like some web, you know, you're talking about a story in the New York Times, you're talking about a website, you're talking like whatever the thing, you know.

00:15:34   And then also on any chapter that is a sponsor for people who do chapters for sponsors, surely you want your like link to that sponsor that lets the people know you heard about it on whatever.

00:15:44   Like, very often you have those links.

00:15:46   How many times is someone going to make a chapter link and link to an Apple property?

00:15:52   Unless you're a podcast that talks about shows on Apple TV.

00:15:54   Like, you know, you mentioned, you know, linking to Apple things when they're, you know, another podcast.

00:16:00   Would you link to Apple Podcasts?

00:16:01   I actually think that's maybe something you would do because the Apple Podcasts app is actually pretty popular.

00:16:06   And maybe it's a toss up if you link to there or Spotify, YouTube or whatever.

00:16:09   But like Apple Music, I don't think people's first instinct would be I'm going to link to a song and a streaming service.

00:16:16   And of course, it's going to be an Apple Music link.

00:16:17   Unless you're an Apple Focus podcast, you're probably going to go with Spotify or at least something that's cross.

00:16:21   Well, Apple Music is cross platform too.

00:16:23   But I don't know how many people outside the Apple ecosystem actually use it.

00:16:26   Anyway, it's just bizarre.

00:16:28   It's just like a wrongheaded, you know, it's like I say it's wrongheaded.

00:16:32   But companies have shown that if you are successful in other ways, you can afford to do this.

00:16:36   For example, Instagram not allowing you to link anywhere ever and just people becoming accustomed to, you know, that's surprising.

00:16:43   That's actually the topic.

00:16:44   Well, it's not surprisingly.

00:16:45   I think this is how the topic came up.

00:16:46   The topic that lends the title to the episode of the talk show that Stephen Robles was on is Lincoln bio.

00:16:52   That that phrase that young children know, but that old people think is like the worst thing ever.

00:16:57   The idea that someone would, you know, have an online service that essentially forbids links anywhere and all these insane workarounds of having like a landing page and these companies that will bank your landing page for you.

00:17:08   So if they want to see the thing you're talking about on Instagram, Lincoln bio, which means go to the bio for the account that put this thing in.

00:17:15   And then we have a link to a page that shows the actual links to our last 27 posts.

00:17:20   It's just insanity, like, you know, and if they're worried about security, if they're worried about like this bug seems like maybe people are putting like a weird URL schemes in there that launch apps and stuff like that.

00:17:31   Just only allow HTTP and HTTPS, right?

00:17:33   This is not this is a solvable problem.

00:17:35   I'm surprisingly upset by this thing that doesn't affect me at all because I don't use Apple podcast, but it's like one of these cases where Apple is being sort of cartoonishly stupid or evil in such an obscure little corner.

00:17:47   It's like, why why are you bothering like this how many pockets even have chapters and yet they're doing this?

00:17:52   Maybe it's a mistake.

00:17:53   Maybe it's a bug.

00:17:54   But the fact that it's sort of kind of documented makes me think it's intended behavior and it's a bad idea.

00:17:58   I don't think it's them trying to like being evil or I think it's them being a little naive or maybe optimistic.

00:18:05   I just I don't see like, you know, I just like publishers are like don't use chapters at all.

00:18:12   And they never have like in large quantities and in the world right now of DAI with injecting podcasts with ads at download time by all these ad providers that everyone's using.

00:18:24   And, you know, like in this world, the idea of of adding more metadata into the podcast that is timestamp specific just doesn't happen because, again, like whenever publishers insert ads of different lanes, the timestamps all shift around.

00:18:38   And so the software that they're doing that with has to be made to support chapters and to shift the timestamps accordingly when they insert and remove ads.

00:18:46   And none of the software does that because none of them care at all about that kind of experience.

00:18:51   I mean, these publishers like they don't even really they hardly even use meaningful show notes like to give you some idea like they don't the metadata side of big podcasts has always been pretty, pretty weak and pretty neglected.

00:19:04   And we have lots of capabilities that most shows just never use.

00:19:08   So I don't know why Apple is putting all this effort into this now.

00:19:13   Again, maybe there's some other piece that has yet to drop or show up.

00:19:17   Like it doesn't make any sense.

00:19:18   It's not some massive power play.

00:19:19   Now we have this this lever.

00:19:20   Let's use it.

00:19:21   The lever of messing with chapters that are on point zero zero one percent of all podcasts.

00:19:25   Like, great.

00:19:25   Good job.

00:19:26   Like, what do you think that's buying you?

00:19:28   You're angering a small, tiny, tiny group of people who are super into podcasts and everyone else doesn't care and will never notice this.

00:19:36   Well, and if they wanted to do it as more of like a like an Apple enhancement kind of lock in, like, you know, I guess keep it all in our ecosystem.

00:19:43   The time to do that would have been like six years ago, like, you know, back before Spotify really got big into podcasts.

00:19:49   And, you know, when Apple really was number one by a much wider margin.

00:19:53   And that has that is not the case recently, though.

00:19:56   They do have a little bit of mind sharing this.

00:19:58   I recently ran into I was messing with stuff on threads and someone pointed out to me, hey, threads allows you to if you are have a threads account for a podcast and we have a threads ATP account, you can link to your podcast.

00:20:09   And this feature is rolling out and I had it.

00:20:12   It's like put the URL of your podcast in here.

00:20:14   And I could not tell what it wanted.

00:20:16   I'm like, does it want the URL of the RSS feed for the podcast?

00:20:20   Does it want the URL of the website for the podcast?

00:20:22   And if you put any of those things in, it gave like an obscure error message or just did nothing and said invalid.

00:20:28   I forget what it said, but it was eventually I figured it out.

00:20:30   You know what I want me to put there?

00:20:31   The Apple podcast URL.

00:20:34   That's the world that Apple thinks is living in.

00:20:36   The default way to link to a podcast is to give an Apple podcast URL.

00:20:39   And I figure what the domain name is, but it's like the URL that Apple hosts for a podcast, which I guess brings up a web page and will launch the Apple podcast app.

00:20:49   But it is not the URL of the RSS feed and it is not the URL of the website for the podcast.

00:20:54   It is a link to Apple's representation of its info that it has on that podcast in its podcast index.

00:21:01   But you can't put that URL into a podcast reader.

00:21:03   Anyway, that's what threads wanted you to put in.

00:21:06   And I think Apple believes that that's what the world is like.

00:21:08   When everyone links to music, of course, they link to Apple Music.

00:21:11   And if anyone links to a news story, they don't link to the New York Times dot com.

00:21:14   They link to Apple News, right?

00:21:15   And podcasts are always Apple podcast links and so on and so forth.

00:21:18   And that is not the real world.

00:21:19   No.

00:21:20   And there was a time when that was closer to the real world.

00:21:23   But that time has passed years ago.

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00:23:25   So there's been some news over the last week, as there tends to be, and there's a departure from Apple that we need to talk about.

00:23:37   Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God.

00:23:39   And that departure happened two days ago as we recorded this.

00:23:42   John Gianandrea is retiring from Apple.

00:23:45   I know, Marco, you're super excited about this.

00:23:47   This was the one that was not the surprise.

00:23:49   Reading from Apple Newsroom.

00:23:52   John Gianandrea, Apple Senior Vice President for Machine Learning and AI Strategy, is stepping down from his position and will serve as an advisor to the company before retiring in the spring of 2026.

00:24:01   Apple also announced that renowned AI researcher Amar Subramania has joined Apple as Vice President of AI, reporting to Craig Federighi.

00:24:10   Subramania will be leading critical areas, including Apple Foundation Models, ML Research, and AI Safety and Evaluation.

00:24:16   The balance of Gianandrea's organization will shift to Sabir Khan and Edi Q in order to align closer with similar organizations.

00:24:26   The balance of Gianandrea's organization, I don't like that phrasing at all.

00:24:29   Anyway, so yeah, this is news.

00:24:32   And apparently this Amar person was at, excuse me, he was at Google and then spent like a minute at Microsoft and is now going to Apple.

00:24:44   So all sorts of musical chairs happening.

00:24:47   Yeah, we'll put a link in the show notes to the story.

00:24:49   It's from the Times of India, being excited about this new person who just joined Microsoft in July of 2025.

00:24:55   And here's what he has to say about his first weeks after joining Microsoft.

00:24:59   And yeah, he wasn't there very long.

00:25:00   I think he spent like 18 years at Google before that.

00:25:04   So it's difficult to get a read on what's going on here, but it's important to note that JG's like portfolio of stuff, first of all, was already cut down after the reorg, after the whole, you know, Siri, Apple intelligence disaster.

00:25:17   And then it's now being split up even further amongst the people replacing him.

00:25:22   And I don't know, this is when we talked about, you know, the reorg and or even just after WWC and things going badly, it's like, well, when you are the person in charge of this long suffering project that essentially fails to launch, that's not good for your career.

00:25:39   And sure enough, he got reorg out of that responsibility and the responsibility was given to other people, but he was still at the company doing stuff.

00:25:48   And it's the, in the world we live in, if you are high enough up in a company, an important enough person, maybe you appear on stage, maybe you're on like a leadership page, maybe you're a vice president or a senior vice president.

00:26:03   If you're an important person at a company and you get all sorts of fancy stock options and a huge salary and a signing bonus, and they poach you from Google and you're like, you're a big, important person.

00:26:13   When you do not do well at your job, you essentially get rewarded.

00:26:20   Like you, you get to leave with dignity.

00:26:24   Tim Cook says great things about you.

00:26:26   We love what you did for the company.

00:26:28   Thank you for all your service.

00:26:31   If you're lucky enough to be a CEO, maybe you get a golden parachute on your way out the door.

00:26:35   You get a couple million bucks just for whatever.

00:26:38   And it's like, well, wait a second, if you succeeded, okay, maybe the higher ups get, you know, their success, they get the spoils.

00:26:45   But if you don't do well, not that I'm saying he failed entirely, but if like, if, if you have a high profile failure to do essentially the thing you were hired to do, if you were a lower level employee, you would not expect the CEO to be telling, to put out a press release.

00:27:00   It says, we loved everything you did.

00:27:03   Thanks for all the help you gave.

00:27:04   Like that's, it's just mind boggling.

00:27:07   And I feel like that's an unhealthy part of the corporate world is that when you reach a certain level, you're too big to fail.

00:27:15   No matter what happens, they always say nice things about you and you always get money and you get a cushy landing and it should be the opposite.

00:27:23   Like when you have all that money and all those stock options and you're a bazillionaire and you get all this money to come to Apple and you fail at your job, you're the consequences should be more severe.

00:27:35   Not less because you were given, you were given much and much was expected of you and you still have all the stuff that was given.

00:27:42   I don't think you also need, uh, uh, you know, a glowing kissy kissy review from the CEO on your way out the door, but that's the way they do it.

00:27:50   It was just like, well, of course we here in the upper echelon, uh, we'll always preserve each other's dignity.

00:27:57   And well, now I'm saying that we need to trash him or anything like that, but it's like, if you're a medium to low level employee and you get bad performance reviews, you're gone with no ceremony.

00:28:05   Like, and it's like, it's not, there's no cushy cushy landing.

00:28:10   There's no agreement amongst all the other people.

00:28:12   And as your peers in the org charter of like, well, of course we want to make sure that no one ever thinks that he did a bad job at anything and everybody loves him.

00:28:18   I don't know.

00:28:19   I'm bitter from being in corporate America, but it's like, it's to give an AI analogy.

00:28:26   If you're, if you're training AI models to try to figure out what, what's a picture of a hot dog and one model, uh, keeps getting it wrong, but, uh, the model had rich parents and you're like, well, but we're going to add a modifier to that model and we're going to multiply its success by like, you know, uh, 50% higher.

00:28:43   And so then when we figure out here are the top five models in all of our different training, the one that has rich parents is up there and it's like, well, it didn't do well, but it's, you know, it's, it's one of us, right?

00:28:52   It's one, it's one of us.

00:28:53   So like we gave it a little bump and it should be there anyway.

00:28:56   We don't want to make it feel bad.

00:28:57   It would be, it would be cruel, you know, to, if, if we said anything mean about that, like, that's not how you find the best model for identifying hot dogs.

00:29:07   And so this is essentially anti-competitive behavior at the top of organizations.

00:29:10   I'm trying to mean, be mean to JG.

00:29:12   He seems like a nice person.

00:29:13   I'm, you know, his retirement I'm sure is well-deserved and he was just not able to be successful in Apple.

00:29:19   Doesn't mean he's a bad person or a bad employee.

00:29:20   It just means it wasn't a bad fit.

00:29:21   What I'm complaining about is the culture of gentle landings and, uh, gentle talk and babying of people who have every advantage in the entire world.

00:29:31   They don't need the, uh, you know, the, the, the, the boosting from the CEO, uh, to go along with it.

00:29:39   Well, I mean, there, there is more to it than that though.

00:29:42   Like, you know, first of all, a lot of times some kind of, uh, golden parachute or contract is negotiated as part of the person's hiring in the first place.

00:29:51   I'm not sure the press release where they say you're wonderful as part of that contract, but yeah, I know that's another part of it could be.

00:29:55   And then the other part of it is, uh, it is PR too.

00:30:00   Like you don't like you as the company, you don't want the world to think you screwed up and made the wrong hire.

00:30:05   So, and you don't want the world to think that you cause this person to fail or this person couldn't succeed in your, in your company.

00:30:11   So it is in everyone's best interest that when you have somebody who's high up enough that it's like press worthy when they leave or get fired, uh, it's, it's in all of their best interests for the company to be like, we're going to make this, we're going to smooth out this PR.

00:30:27   We're going to make this seem like this amicable transition.

00:30:30   And we thank this person very much for their service.

00:30:33   And here's part of their, part of their very soft, slow exit out of the company.

00:30:37   Like it's all about softening the PR as well.

00:30:39   Cause you know, cause you, you wouldn't want the story to be Apple fires this bit, this AI guy.

00:30:45   And we don't know if he was fired, but you know, you wouldn't want the story to be like Apple fires an executive that they hired away from Google for a while because his division wasn't doing what they wanted or whatever.

00:30:55   Like that's a bad story, not only on him, but on Apple also maybe like at this level, maybe the, the person could even like sue the company for disparagement or something.

00:31:05   Like there's all these, like when you get to that level, I'm not saying you have to trash them.

00:31:09   I'm just, I just don't think it needs to be that soft.

00:31:11   And the idea that like, it's a, it's a PR, like everybody knew as soon as the reorg was done, like even when they, the way they phrased the reorg it, no one's fooled by this, especially people in the business world.

00:31:19   They're like, well, this guy didn't perform what, what he was supposed to be doing.

00:31:23   And so he got reorg out of that responsibility and then we all just started our stopwatches, right?

00:31:27   Cause one, when an important person is reorg out of their responsibility, it's like, I guess they're going to be looking for a new job because the, because the, the indignity, the indignity of like, they're so proud and they have so much dignity.

00:31:37   It's like, well, you hired me to do this thing and now you've decided I'm not going to do it.

00:31:41   And you reorg me away from my responsibility.

00:31:42   Yeah, I'm still at the company.

00:31:43   I'm still in charge of X, Y, and Z, but that's it.

00:31:46   I'm going elsewhere, right?

00:31:47   Or I'm going to retire or whatever, because they can't, but during that time when their dignity is injured and they're either looking for a new job or organizing their retirement, they're still getting their big salary.

00:31:55   They're still at the company.

00:31:56   They're still playing the game.

00:31:57   And Apple says, you know, we're just reorganizing things.

00:32:00   Like we're shuffling stuff around.

00:32:01   Nothing bad about JG.

00:32:02   Everything did was great.

00:32:03   But no one's fooled by that.

00:32:04   We know you had a high profile.

00:32:06   And especially in this case is like one of the highest profile failures because it was public.

00:32:11   Lots of times, you know, something's assigned to some group and doesn't work out well.

00:32:14   And they shuffle people around, but you know, nothing's public.

00:32:16   But like at WWC 2024, they announced this thing that was, we hired this guy from Google many years later, Apple intelligence, here it comes.

00:32:24   And no, so it was very public failure.

00:32:27   And the reorg was a sort of very public egg on JG's face.

00:32:30   And yes, they do try to smooth it over.

00:32:31   But like that whole dance, like just people in the chat room that I'm surprised.

00:32:36   I'm not surprised by this.

00:32:37   I lived it.

00:32:37   That's why it annoys me so much.

00:32:38   Like I've seen it too many times for up close and personal.

00:32:41   If you go back to a few times when Apple hasn't done this, I think Paper Master got booted out unceremoniously.

00:32:48   I think a couple of Apple retail chiefs under Tim Cook's error also kind of got the boot without too much wonderful, you know, messages from Tim Cook.

00:32:57   Although he probably still said nice things about them.

00:32:58   The I versus Forrestal thing was not particularly friendly.

00:33:04   I mean, there was some, you know, anyway, I just, I just don't think it's like, it's not fooling anybody.

00:33:11   And it is bothersome to me.

00:33:12   And that whole, like, you know, I'm not saying it should have kicked him out sooner because I also agree that like, if you hire someone to do something, give them a chance.

00:33:19   JG had a chance.

00:33:20   I feel like he wasn't.

00:33:21   They didn't just like say, oh, you haven't done it within two years and you're out of there.

00:33:24   They gave him a long, long time.

00:33:26   And I'd still would love to hear the story of like how they decided to announce what they did at WWC 2024.

00:33:32   But whatever that, whatever, whoever was involved in that decision made some terrible mistakes.

00:33:36   And maybe JG was saying, no, we can't announce this.

00:33:39   It's not ready.

00:33:40   And they, and they did it anyway to essentially force the, you know, force the, the, force the issue and say, well, you know, you sink or swim.

00:33:47   And then he sunk and got reorged out.

00:33:49   Anyway, don't want to be mean to JG.

00:33:50   Hope he enjoys his retirement.

00:33:52   If, if in fact he does retire it and hired somewhere else.

00:33:55   But yeah, this is sort of the end of that story.

00:33:59   Like I said, you know, when, when the dignity of an important executive is injured, start your timers because that executive is probably going elsewhere or retiring.

00:34:08   Yeah.

00:34:08   And again, and, and, you know, as we discussed when he was, you know, relieved of all these duties months ago, uh, we don't know what the story there was.

00:34:16   Like, we don't know if, you know, was he, was he not, you know, good enough for this or is the story something else?

00:34:22   Like, like he, like the system around him wouldn't let him do what he needed to do.

00:34:26   We have, you know, it was impossible for him to succeed inside Apple.

00:34:29   Like there has to be a fit between the people and the company culture.

00:34:32   And I don't think there was a fit here.

00:34:33   Yeah, exactly.

00:34:34   And, you know, and, you know, ultimately what you have to do is look at results and the results were like his division when he was leading it didn't produce good output.

00:34:42   That's it.

00:34:43   Even, even when they announced, like that is the, that is, that makes me think that he had like enemies within the company said, we're going to announce this anyway.

00:34:48   Cause this is the only way we're ever going to force them out.

00:34:50   Cause otherwise Tim just lets them keep going and going and going.

00:34:52   So we're going to announce Apple intelligence.

00:34:53   And then when it, when it inevitably sinks, we'll point the finger at him.

00:34:56   I, I'm not saying that's what happened, but like, that is one plausible theory from the outside.

00:35:00   Because it's like, why, why announce what you don't have?

00:35:02   And, you know, we know how that turned out over the subsequent years.

00:35:05   Yeah.

00:35:06   I mean, I don't know.

00:35:07   What I don't understand is like, who cares?

00:35:11   Like you are, this man surely has more money than God.

00:35:14   Just fade into the, fade into the night, fade into the night.

00:35:17   Well, it's not, no.

00:35:18   I mean, when you're, when you're like, you know, a successful person in your career, like that, yeah, you might have enough money, but like you want to do the work.

00:35:25   Like, you know, somebody like, like, like John Gianandrea, like he's a, he's a very accomplished, you know, expert in his field.

00:35:31   Like he, I'm sure he wants to keep doing the work.

00:35:33   It's, you know, it's, it isn't about, you know, it isn't about like, oh, I want to keep working just to make another couple million bucks.

00:35:39   Maybe he'll end up at a university or something.

00:35:41   Like the vague things that I've heard about his rep was that he's very into like research and that type of environment.

00:35:46   And then Apple wants to ship products.

00:35:48   Right.

00:35:48   So I can see him at a university or he could just retire, you know, like enjoy your work.

00:35:52   Or open AI.

00:35:52   Like, you know, you could see a lot of the, a lot of the new AI companies would, would, you know, if he has all of this, like, you know, academic and theoretical talent, that's, there's still a huge market for that out there in the job world.

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00:38:06   John Gianandrea was not the only person who has announced that we're leaving.

00:38:11   Oh, my God.

00:38:11   Breaking news as we record – it was a few hours ago as we sit here and record.

00:38:17   Bloomberg has announced that – was this Gurman?

00:38:22   Yeah, Gurman, yeah.

00:38:24   Mark Gurman got the scoop.

00:38:26   And I will read from Mark Gurman.

00:38:29   Meta has poached Apple's most prominent design executive, Alan Dye, who has served as the head of Apple's user interface design team since 2015.

00:38:37   Apple's replacing Dye with longtime senior designer Stephen LeMay.

00:38:40   Apple confirmed the move in a statement provided to Bloomberg News.

00:38:44   Quote, Steve LeMay has played a key role in the design of every major Apple interface since 1999.

00:38:48   Chief Executive Officer Tim Cook said in a statement,

00:38:51   he has always set an extraordinarily high bar for excellence and embodies Apple's culture of collaboration and creativity.

00:38:59   Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

00:39:00   Reading from Gurman, Dye informed Apple this week that he's decided to leave,

00:39:04   though top management had already been bracing for his departure, the people said.

00:39:07   Dye will join Meta as Chief Design Officer on December 31st.

00:39:11   Meta is creating a new design studio and putting Dye in charge of design for hardware, software, and AI integration for its interfaces.

00:39:18   Joining Dye at Meta is Billy Sorrentino, a prominent deputy who has served as a senior director in Apple's design team since 2016.

00:39:25   Dye will be reporting to Chiefs Technology Officer Andrew Bosworth,

00:39:29   Overseas Reality Labs.

00:39:30   That group is tasked with developing wearable devices such as smart glasses and virtual reality headsets.

00:39:35   Dye's major focus will be revamping Meta's customer devices with artificial intelligence features.

00:39:39   At Apple, Dye most recently oversaw the interface of the Vision Pro headset in a sweeping redesign of Apple's operating systems.

00:39:45   He was also central to designing the company's apps, the Apple Watch, and the iPhone X.

00:39:50   His team has been helping develop a slate of new smart home devices as well, Bloomberg News has reported.

00:39:55   The turnover is expected to continue with many of the remaining top leaders, including Cook, nearing typical retirement ages.

00:40:02   Johnny Surugi, Apple's Silicon Chief, and Lisa Jackson's Apple's Head of Government Environmental Initiatives have both been evaluating their features of the company, Bloomberg has reported.

00:40:10   Marco, I know you don't have too much to say about this, so John, any thoughts?

00:40:15   Well, I mean, I see you've got a quote from Jason and Six Scholars here, and I did read what he wrote earlier, and he's saying exactly what I've been thinking and have said on past episodes when talking about stuff like this.

00:40:26   Perhaps more so than Marco, I've always been pretent to assign blame to particular individuals for Apple decisions that I don't agree with, because who knows what goes on inside the company.

00:40:38   There are two angles in this, both of which Jason mentioned in his article that we'll link.

00:40:42   One is, well, okay, so you don't know what's happening inside the company, but you do know who's responsible for it, according to Apple's org chart.

00:40:49   And so even if it's not Johnny Ive or Alan Dyer or whatever personally doing the thing you disagree with, if they're in charge of all user interface design and you see a bunch of user interface design from Apple that you don't like, it's fair to say, even though you didn't do this personally, like the coach doesn't play on the team, but they're in the end responsible for the performance of the team.

00:41:10   And the second thing is, when Apple brings out Alan Dyer and has him stand in front of a table of little clear pieces of plastic and try to explain why his terrible interface is good, yeah, I'm going to blame Alan Dyer.

00:41:20   Because I, like, did they force him out there to explain or try to explain or fail to explain?

00:41:26   Like, he is literally the face of the specific thing that I don't like.

00:41:31   And so, although Marco has been anti-Alan Dyer for a long, long time, I gave Apple and Alan the benefit of the doubt until there was no way to, there was no way to deny the fact that he's in charge.

00:41:46   He's, he, in the end, it's all his responsibility and he is literally in the video describing the thing.

00:41:54   And again, it doesn't mean he did any or all of it himself, but he is clearly the face of this.

00:41:59   And because he's in charge of it, whether he did it or not, he obviously approves of it.

00:42:04   He's not out there being forced at gunpoint to promote something that he hates.

00:42:07   Why would he hate it?

00:42:08   He's literally in charge of the design team.

00:42:11   So, I'm glad to see him go.

00:42:13   Marco, how do you feel?

00:42:13   Well, hold on.

00:42:14   Let me, let me just read this from Jason real quick and then I promise I will get out of Marco's way.

00:42:17   And I know everyone's going to be mad at me, but let me just clear the decks and then we'll let, we'll set Marco loose.

00:42:21   Uh, Jason Snell over at Six Colors wrote, so this is, is this a major loss for Apple and a major coup for Meta as Mark Ehrman editorializes?

00:42:28   Just to pause there, like you didn't read the headline, but like I believe the, the Bloomberg headline is, what is it?

00:42:33   Apple design executive Alan Dye poached by Meta in major coup?

00:42:37   I mean, unless the coup is planting a bad designer at Meta to hurt them.

00:42:43   Like what, like, so here's like a very often we disagree with German's take on things.

00:42:51   And obviously we're very inside baseball and developers are more mad about Apple's interface than most people are.

00:42:57   So like maybe to the outside world and an average Bloomberg reader, like, oh, they'd hired a big designer from Apple and everyone knows Apple is good at design.

00:43:03   So there must be a coup and they've poached him.

00:43:05   But like, the more you know about Alan Dye and Apple and the more you care about interface design, the less you think that headline makes any sense.

00:43:13   Right. So with that in mind, and again, let me just clear the decks before I let Marco go.

00:43:17   So is this a major loss for Apple and a major coup for Meta as Mark Ehrman editorializes?

00:43:21   I don't see it.

00:43:22   Maybe those top executives who were bracing for his departure feel that way.

00:43:25   Though my gut feeling is that if Apple really wanted Alan Dye to stay at Apple, they would have kept him.

00:43:30   I think it's more likely that in the wake of Jeff Williams retiring as COO, other changes are afoot at Apple.

00:43:35   And perhaps Dye felt it was the right time to leave.

00:43:37   Certainly being offered what must have been a truckload of money by Mark Zuckerberg couldn't hurt things.

00:43:41   What I'm saying is sometimes when you're bracing for a departure of a senior employee, you're doing it because they think they're more valuable than you think they are.

00:43:48   Sick burn.

00:43:50   I don't know if that happened in this case.

00:43:52   Change is hard and it's natural for people, including Apple executives, to want to keep the band together as long as possible.

00:43:56   But in the end, I think Alan Dye's departure is a major coup for Apple.

00:43:59   And let me tell you, I don't know Alan Dye for nothing.

00:44:02   I think it's probably a good thing that he's leaving.

00:44:06   But I was looking at Instagram shortly before we started recording, and let me tell you, this man sniffs his own farts and loves it.

00:44:13   Because sure enough, on his Insta stories is the following.

00:44:16   Quote, I think if you do something and it turns out pretty good, then you should do something else wonderful.

00:44:20   Not dwell on it for too long.

00:44:22   Just figure out what's next.

00:44:23   Steve Jobs.

00:44:23   Oh, he does not deserve to use that quote.

00:44:26   That is on his Insta stories.

00:44:28   So here's the thing about Alan Dye.

00:44:30   It was an interview with him that I didn't want to pull out after the liquid glass thing where he was, I forget who he was interviewed.

00:44:36   Maybe it was The Verge or something.

00:44:37   But he was basically saying that he feels like he has imposter syndrome, and he's afraid everyone's just going to find out that he has no idea what he's doing, which seemed just so on the nose.

00:44:45   And I didn't put it on the show.

00:44:46   Yeah, I saw that.

00:44:47   Because that was what, from a couple years ago, right?

00:44:49   No, I think it was more recent than that.

00:44:51   But it's like, look, humans are human.

00:44:53   Maybe he feels that way, but maybe he's also trying to put a brave face on him leaving Apple, and we don't know all the details or whatever.

00:44:59   But people are complex, and it's difficult.

00:45:01   But in the end, I try not to put it on the person.

00:45:04   In the end, I don't like the user interface things that Apple did when he was in charge of those things.

00:45:11   That's what it comes down to.

00:45:12   All right, Marco.

00:45:13   Thank you for being patient.

00:45:14   How do you feel?

00:45:17   I'm so happy for all parties involved.

00:45:19   All right, so we just said, for John G. and Andrea's departure, we were just saying how, like, you know, we don't know all of the effects that go into somebody not succeeding in a company.

00:45:33   You know, it could be the person.

00:45:34   It could be their team.

00:45:36   It could be the company around them.

00:45:37   It could be so many things.

00:45:38   It could be the leaders above them, not letting them do what they want to do.

00:45:42   It could be, you know, too aggressive timelines or too much scope.

00:45:46   Like, there's so many ways that the work of a, you know, a division under a person can be bad or non-ideal that aren't necessarily the person's fault.

00:45:57   I don't know Alan Dye.

00:45:59   He, you know, in the very little bit I've read from him or seen from him, I don't think we would necessarily get along.

00:46:08   But I'm sure he's a fine person, and I'm not going to, like, you know, dance on the grave of his career at Apple, you know, because, like, in a way that would feel too deeply personal.

00:46:17   But here's the thing.

00:46:18   Again, just like J.G., you've got to look at results.

00:46:21   The results of software design since he's been in charge have been all over the place.

00:46:29   You can look back at, like, how did Alan Dye get to this position?

00:46:34   Well, that was back when, you know, in the early Tim Cook era after Steve Jobs had passed away, Tim kind of didn't know how to assign talent to things like software and, you know, design, you know, design beyond, you know, industrial design.

00:46:52   And so Tim had put Johnny in charge of all design, and Johnny brought in Alan Dye, who I believe was in, like, the print marketing team or something at the time, and put him in charge of software design.

00:47:04   And that was, you know, look, you put someone in charge of software design that was not really a software designer then or now.

00:47:14   And it does seem like the fart sniffing has grown over time.

00:47:20   You know, just because somebody mentions imposter syndrome in an interview a couple years ago doesn't necessarily mean that they are modest or have an honest view of their work.

00:47:30   And the designs that we've seen from Dye, especially in recent years, have not shown modesty or maybe, you know, humility or even necessarily, you know, interest in making the best work at it, you know, even if it's not, like, your ideal.

00:47:48   No, it's the opposite.

00:47:50   You know, the work we've seen coming out of Apple software design in recent years, especially this past year, has been, we know what's best.

00:47:57   Screw you.

00:47:57   By the way, it's actually not especially good in certain ways, especially ways that are traditional, you know, software usability, you know, hallmarks.

00:48:05   Things like control sizing, you know, button tap areas, contrast, text legibility.

00:48:11   Like there's so many issues, you know, with the new designs that are like directly against decades of well-established, you know, human interface and computer design.

00:48:22   So I look at the Dye era and whether it was Dye's fault or not, this is a pretty significant sign that that era has just ended.

00:48:31   Because if you look at, like, the bigger picture here, he just shipped all of the 26 series OS redesigns.

00:48:39   It's been only a few months since the public has had access to these.

00:48:44   And he's all of a sudden changing jobs?

00:48:47   Now, there is, you know, there are other dynamics here.

00:48:50   Meta is on a hiring spree.

00:48:51   They have been for some time, like since the AI thing.

00:48:53   Also, Meta is known to pay really well.

00:48:57   One of the reasons so much talent goes to Meta is not because everyone loves Zuckerberg and Facebook and Instagram.

00:49:05   Like that's not why a lot of people go to work there.

00:49:08   People go to work there because they pay really well.

00:49:11   Souls cost money.

00:49:12   Right.

00:49:12   And when Zuck wants to hire, you know, somebody, some talent, he pays whatever it takes.

00:49:18   And it's, it can be really high.

00:49:20   And Apple has traditionally been regarded as the opposite.

00:49:24   Apple is historically not thought of as a place that you get paid particularly well compared to other Silicon Valley competitors.

00:49:31   Apple's kind of like, you want to work for us because we're the best.

00:49:34   And screw you if you want more money, basically.

00:49:37   Like, that's the, that's the impression I've gotten from a lot of, a lot of reports about, about Apple's salary negotiation.

00:49:44   Yeah.

00:49:44   To be clear, just to jump in here.

00:49:46   From what I understand, people who work at Apple still make a hilarious amount of money.

00:49:51   Oh yeah, it's great money, but compared to like, compared to what Meta would pay.

00:49:56   Exactly.

00:49:56   Yeah.

00:49:57   Or even Google or Netflix or any of the other local people.

00:50:00   And this is before we even start talking about the like athlete salaries that we discussed on a past episode.

00:50:04   Just regular person salaries.

00:50:05   Apple is always trying to kind of be like average or in the middle and Meta is a little bit higher.

00:50:10   But for, for people at this level, it dies level.

00:50:13   Then I feel like we're getting into the whole, you know, athlete salary, you know, tens, hundreds of millions of dollars, ridiculous stuff like that.

00:50:19   Yeah.

00:50:20   Yep.

00:50:20   Yep.

00:50:20   And so, you know, for, for the die era to end seemingly at an, at an odd time and maybe suddenly.

00:50:32   This doesn't sound like executives were bracing, just about to hear that he's going to leave us.

00:50:37   Oh no, what are we going to do?

00:50:39   It kind of sounds to me like they let him go.

00:50:42   Like not, not, not that they fired him, but they literally like let, they let Meta kind of take him without putting up a huge fight.

00:50:49   That's kind of what it sounds like.

00:50:50   Yeah.

00:50:51   This, this smells to me like, you know, if, if he went into Tim's or whoever's office and said, Hey, guess what?

00:50:57   I'm out expecting Tim or whoever to be like, Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:51:02   How much are they offering you?

00:51:03   Let's talk.

00:51:03   And instead of that conversation, Tim just said, Oh, okay, good luck.

00:51:08   You know what I mean?

00:51:09   I didn't see the whole, I don't know what the whole statement was from Tim Cook to Bloomberg, but the part that was quoted talks about Steve LeMay, not Alan Dye.

00:51:18   It talks about the great guy that we have replacing Alan.

00:51:21   It's not, you don't, I don't see, maybe there'll be in the press, but I don't see the like, thank you, Alan, for all your years of work and blah, blah, blah.

00:51:28   And it's been wonderful.

00:51:28   Like, because it's a difference between like retiring or like bowing out versus being disloyal and going to Facebook, which I think Tim Cook likes a lot less than the way JG left.

00:51:40   And again, I haven't seen the whole statement.

00:51:41   Maybe there is that in the statement, but the, the quoted part is not about Alan Dye at all.

00:51:46   And like, and so let's talk about Steve LeMay.

00:51:48   So Steve LeMay is the person who has been appointed basically Dye's replacement.

00:51:52   Like, I don't know if the titles are exactly the same, but it sounds like direct, direct Dye replacement.

00:51:56   And Tim Cook gave a statement in Bloomberg that says, Steve LeMay has played a key role in the design of every major Apple interface since 1999.

00:52:04   And, you know, just some, there's not much about him on the internet, but, you know, you do some quick, like, you know, LinkedIn searches and stuff.

00:52:09   And you see, yeah, that's, he's been at Apple since 1999 and he's a UI designer.

00:52:14   Oh my God.

00:52:16   A UI designer who's in charge of UI design at Apple.

00:52:20   Imagine that.

00:52:21   This has not been the case for the last 10 years.

00:52:23   We didn't know if there were any left in the company.

00:52:26   I, you know, we don't know, we don't know really from the public's perspective, we don't know anything about Steve LeMay.

00:52:31   But this to me is a promising new direction.

00:52:33   You're taking somebody who seems like he has worked on the Mac, on UI, you know, for a very long time and has been there for a very long time.

00:52:45   Maybe this is just me being sensitive in these areas.

00:52:47   The, one of the things that, that kind of rubs me the wrong way is that I love two things that historically a lot of people have not loved.

00:52:59   Podcasts and computers.

00:53:02   And actually, and even, you know, we saw this like early on in podcasts.

00:53:07   We saw that there were, and still, you know, to this day, this kind of thing remains, but, you know, there were a lot more in the past of like startups or products, general comments from the industry of like, well, you don't want to listen to podcasts, right?

00:53:21   So here's some products that you don't have to.

00:53:23   And there was kind of this, like this kind of assumption baked into a lot of discourse out there from like the general public for a long time.

00:53:32   Less so now, but for a long time of like podcasts, God, that's, those are terrible.

00:53:38   Why do you want to listen to podcasts?

00:53:40   And kind of assuming like, of course, everyone agrees with that.

00:53:43   And that same common, like, you know, attitude has been levied at computers for all of computing.

00:53:50   And some, some of that, you know, for a lot of people that is deserved, you know, for a lot of people, computers are kind of their enemy.

00:53:56   They're, they're, they've been, you know, hard to use or they fight them or they represent like their work or, you know, whatever it is.

00:54:02   Lots of reasons for that.

00:54:03   But what started being really scary and, and, you know, discomforting and discouraging to me over the years has been that it seems like Apple was taken over by people who didn't like computers either.

00:54:15   It seems like, you know, Steve Jobs loved computers.

00:54:18   Clearly for his entire life, it was very, very obvious.

00:54:22   He freaking loved computers and understood how to make great computers, didn't succeed 100% of the time, but loved computers nonetheless and had a really good track record.

00:54:34   And then Tim Cook took over and Tim Cook does not care about computers.

00:54:37   You could tell, like, it's been very obvious.

00:54:39   Like Tim Cook could not give less of a crap about computers and it showed.

00:54:43   And Johnny Ive always seemed like he was kind of in that, in that ballpark too, of like he was, he loves design, like industrial physical design.

00:54:53   Johnny Ive is very good at physical design, but it seems like a lot of Johnny's products, especially the unedited late Johnny era, seem like computers designed by people who hate computers and who assume everyone else hates computers too.

00:55:06   And you want as little computer as possible.

00:55:07   Why do you want capabilities and ports and stuff?

00:55:09   Why do you want battery life?

00:55:11   You want, you want to just have this computer that's like nothing because you hate computers.

00:55:14   And Alan Dye, his era of software design leadership has seemed like that bringing that same attitude to software.

00:55:24   Like, especially on the Mac, where he really seemed like he never even bothered to try to understand the Mac.

00:55:31   The design of computer interfaces under Alan Dye was, don't you hate all the things your computer can do?

00:55:39   Don't you want to just get rid of them?

00:55:41   Just hide them.

00:55:42   Just get all this clutter out of the way.

00:55:44   Get all of these tools and operations you can do on things.

00:55:48   All the things that you can use your computer for besides just idly looking at content.

00:55:53   Just get it all out of the way.

00:55:55   Just get rid of all, clean this up.

00:55:57   All this dirt, all these dirty features and functions and things you can do to produce or edit or enjoy something.

00:56:04   Get all that out of the way.

00:56:06   Instead, look at me with my shiny glass over top of your content, fading and blurring and warping and blurring.

00:56:14   Look at me.

00:56:15   We're getting out of the way of your content.

00:56:16   But look at the interface.

00:56:17   Like, we don't like what computers have done.

00:56:20   We don't like the way things are done.

00:56:21   We don't like making good interfaces.

00:56:23   We like making no interface.

00:56:25   Except we don't have the self-control to make no interface.

00:56:29   So instead, we're going to show off with a really flashy interface how little of an interface we can make.

00:56:36   And so it was all principles of – again, I read it as that same attitude of like, don't you hate computers?

00:56:45   No, I don't hate computers.

00:56:48   I freaking love computers.

00:56:50   So does the guy who wrote that quote in your Instagram story.

00:56:55   But to love computers and to watch the company that makes the best computers be taken over by people who didn't seem like they loved computers as much as you is a really hard thing to go to like to get through without getting cynical and discouraged and kind of thinking like, God, I guess we're not going to like – at some point, this is going to stop being the best computer company.

00:57:16   And then there won't be one left.

00:57:17   And so maybe I'm reading way too much into all of this.

00:57:22   It wouldn't be the first time in my life.

00:57:25   But I find this encouraging that in a relatively short span, it seems like we are surprisingly close maybe to the end of the Tim Cook era at Apple, which is a big deal.

00:57:40   Johnny Ive left a few years back, and the products got a lot better after he left, I think, because they got a lot more balanced in terms of functionality versus nice design.

00:57:53   And now Alan Dye is leaving and being replaced by somebody who's been there back when Apple was a computer company that made really great computers led by people who loved really great computers.

00:58:05   So, again, we don't know anything about Steve LeMay from the public yet, but I think this is a promising sign.

00:58:10   Maybe things are turning in a better direction now.

00:58:13   And maybe in a year or two, we'll have interfaces heading more towards usability and functionality.

00:58:24   Maybe we'll have a different CEO kind of slowly starting to turn things.

00:58:28   You know, and if it's John Ternus, you know, that's, you know, he comes from products, like the product part of the company, which is promising.

00:58:35   If Ternus is indeed also being considered as a CEO to happen imminently, maybe he was part of the choice of who to replace Dye with.

00:58:46   Maybe he was involved in that decision or consulted for that decision.

00:58:48   Who knows?

00:58:49   But this all sounds like really promising turns for a company that, you know, I've made no secret that I've been pretty stale on the leadership recently.

00:59:03   Again, maybe this is too optimistic.

00:59:05   Maybe I'm reading too much into this.

00:59:07   I think this is a very good sign.

00:59:09   And you know what?

00:59:10   Good for Alan Dye.

00:59:11   He's probably making a lot more money at Meta.

00:59:14   So I'm super glad for Zuckerberg and that wonderful group of people to lose some more money.

00:59:21   That's great.

00:59:22   And Dye gets paid more money probably to leave.

00:59:26   And that makes Apple better.

00:59:28   And so, however this happened, thank you, world.

00:59:32   Thank you for doing this.

00:59:34   We'll see where it goes from here.

00:59:36   But I have pretty high hopes it's probably going to go up.

00:59:39   It's kind of a shame that he did release all the, that Apple did release all the 26 OSs right before he leaves.

00:59:46   Like, if we could just push that back and have him leave and then not release it, that was never going to happen, though, because they needed something to announce to WNBC.

00:59:51   Anyway, like, as I said, when the 26 OSs were out and we were talking about them, we're on a multi-year slope with these 26 OSs.

01:00:01   But it will become the 27 and 28, blah, blah, blah.

01:00:03   It's not like next year they're all going to be changed.

01:00:06   Like, I'm sure liquid metal.

01:00:07   Oh, no, it wouldn't be that fast.

01:00:08   Liquid glass, sorry.

01:00:10   I'm sure liquid glass will continue to be refined.

01:00:12   But fundamentally, you know, again, there are fundamental problems with liquid glass that are not going away anytime soon.

01:00:18   So it's going to take a while before we see any positive change.

01:00:22   You're just like it took a little while after Johnny Ive left to get, like, you know, I was going to say power books.

01:00:26   MacBook grows with ports on them and everything in a new design.

01:00:29   But I don't think you're being too optimistic because he was at the top of an organization that was doing things we didn't like.

01:00:35   Getting rid of the person at the top is your only chance to see any kind of change.

01:00:39   Now, it doesn't mean that change could be worse.

01:00:40   The change could be, you know, things could still get worse.

01:00:43   But it's the time to be optimistic is finally there is a hope of change here because things were not going in a direction we liked for a long time.

01:00:52   And that was obviously not going to change by someone just presenting Alan Dye with a strong argument because he was not convincible if anyone ever was presenting that argument.

01:01:01   And then so he drops the 26 OS's and then he's out the door.

01:01:04   Now we're stuck with them for the next several years, even as they may be, like, repaired and touched up before the next redesign.

01:01:10   So that's kind of a shame.

01:01:11   But I have been thinking about, like, the 26 OS's.

01:01:16   How do they, what is the impression of them inside Apple?

01:01:19   We talked about, like, obviously things we didn't like about them and things UI nerds don't like about them or whatever.

01:01:24   But who cares?

01:01:25   What is the general public going to think?

01:01:27   And Apple probably cares much more about what the general public thinks.

01:01:29   But a few things to note on this.

01:01:32   One, underscore David Smith's little chart of, like, maybe not representative, but he has very popular apps, of, like, adoption of the new iOS version.

01:01:42   He said for the past few years they've been doing a thing where it sort of trickles out and then they pushed everybody real hard around the .1 or .2 update.

01:01:48   And so far he hasn't seen that with the 26, with iOS 26.

01:01:53   Like, there's just been a steady climb.

01:01:54   And Apple, people are still saying that Apple's just about to push it.

01:01:58   And by push it, I mean, like, really strongly suggest to people that you update it or update it automatically overnight if they have the setting that way or whatever.

01:02:06   Or Apple tends to be cautious with new iOS releases in particular where the early adopters get updated to it immediately, manually, but they just let people sort of grow organically until they say, okay, now it's really ready with the .1 or .2 and they push it out hard.

01:02:18   And the graph takes a big bend upwards and the adoption rate goes up.

01:02:21   We haven't seen that yet with 26.

01:02:22   Maybe that means Apple is still being a little cautious with this or maybe it's just a policy change.

01:02:27   Who knows?

01:02:27   The other thing is, no, there's not public outcry about 26 being bad.

01:02:33   You know, comedians are not making fun of it.

01:02:35   It's like, it hasn't been terrible.

01:02:36   It's been fine.

01:02:37   People, you know, some people like it.

01:02:39   Some people don't.

01:02:40   But I can tell you one thing.

01:02:41   In the public consciousness, I don't think the feeling about the 26 OS is, this is amazing.

01:02:49   You've got to get this.

01:02:49   Everybody loves it.

01:02:50   And they're super jazzed about it.

01:02:51   I don't think that's happening at all.

01:02:53   And when you have a big redesign, that's what you hope for.

01:02:55   We did a big redesign and the public loves it.

01:02:58   People can't stop talking about it and say, hey, have you updated your phone?

01:03:00   The new one is much better.

01:03:01   You got like, that is not a public.

01:03:03   Forget about whether it's justified or not.

01:03:04   Sometimes that happens because they put new emoji in or they change one thing or whatever.

01:03:09   But for whatever reason, iOS 26 is not doing that.

01:03:13   Certainly Tahoe is not doing that either.

01:03:14   And I think that's what Apple cares about.

01:03:17   We, with much fanfare, we redesigned all our OSs and what they want to see happen.

01:03:23   They don't forget about the nerds or whatever.

01:03:24   What they want to see happen is I want there to be stories and publications or whatever.

01:03:31   I want to hear word on the street is that everybody loves the comprehensive new OS design.

01:03:35   And that has not been the story about the 26th story is also not that it's a disaster, even though some people think it is.

01:03:41   But like, it's just kind of in the middle.

01:03:44   Like, it's fine.

01:03:45   Right.

01:03:46   And that's not, you know, if that's that doesn't sort of make Alan Dye's reputation become bigger within Apple.

01:03:54   Like, great job, Alan.

01:03:55   You knocked it out of the park.

01:03:56   We did this rig redesign and everybody loves it.

01:03:58   No, everybody doesn't love it.

01:03:58   They don't hate it either.

01:03:59   So it's not it's not like a JG thing where it's like a total failure.

01:04:02   You didn't do the thing we asked you.

01:04:03   You did the thing.

01:04:03   You launch it.

01:04:04   It's fine.

01:04:05   But it's not great.

01:04:07   And then the final factor, which I'm just speculating about, is surely somewhere within Apple, there are lots of people who are computer nerds, who care about user interface design, who hate everything that we hate about it.

01:04:20   Right.

01:04:20   Absolutely.

01:04:21   Because that's where those people land.

01:04:22   I'm not saying we're like, you know, we are a tiny minority.

01:04:25   But where is this tiny minority likely to work?

01:04:28   At Apple.

01:04:29   Because those are the people who love Apple and care about user interface design.

01:04:32   No, not all employees and probably not even most, but just like the old cranky ones.

01:04:36   Maybe like Steve LeMay.

01:04:39   There is always pressure inside Apple.

01:04:42   Anything you hear someone complain about Apple in the outside world, there are people inside Apple also having that complaint.

01:04:46   Now, maybe they're not empowered to do anything about it, but that exists.

01:04:49   And I feel like the people inside Apple who are cranky about things that Apple are doing, they can just be cranky for years.

01:04:55   And people can just ignore them.

01:04:56   But I think it's impossible to not know that that sentiment exists inside Apple.

01:05:01   So the 26th OS has come out.

01:05:03   They're not a disaster, but they're not a home run.

01:05:06   And there are cranky old people inside Apple grumbly about it.

01:05:09   And they've been grumbling probably the whole time about it.

01:05:11   The whole time anyone has known about it.

01:05:13   That is not a formula for great job, Alan, from, you know, looking forward to what you do next.

01:05:20   It's kind of a situation where, you know, meta drops a bucket of money in his head.

01:05:24   But Alan must be thinking, I did this great thing.

01:05:27   Why isn't everybody, why aren't I getting an attaboy from Tim Cook?

01:05:30   Why isn't everyone saying they love me?

01:05:31   And why do I hear whispers in the hallways about these cranky old people who don't like what I'm doing?

01:05:38   That makes you maybe want to look for a new job, right?

01:05:41   Again, the money and Facebook going to get, I don't, I don't doubt that Facebook went to get him.

01:05:45   Because Facebook is, has many wrongheaded notions about things, including let me, let me grab the designer that everybody loves from Apple, right?

01:05:51   Who is that?

01:05:52   No, it's not Alan Dye.

01:05:52   Like, we want him to do for Apple what he did for us.

01:05:56   Do you?

01:05:57   I don't know if you know what he did for Apple.

01:05:58   Anyway, it seems like a situation where maybe his dignity is not hurt, but like, I don't think things are going as well as he hoped.

01:06:10   When Johnny Ive was in his job doing his great products, everybody freaking loved him.

01:06:15   There were stories about him.

01:06:16   There were stories about the products.

01:06:17   every single piece of media you ever saw about the iPod or the iPhone or the AirPods or anything that it's just, let me just have these long barker.

01:06:26   He's a Johnny Ive.

01:06:27   Let me tell you about his childhood.

01:06:28   Can you believe he made these amazing products?

01:06:30   Everybody loves them.

01:06:31   They're so beautiful.

01:06:32   That has not happened with the 26 OSs.

01:06:34   And maybe Alan wishes it did.

01:06:36   And so that's a perfect formula for, yeah, maybe I should do something else.

01:06:40   So bye, Alan.

01:06:41   Glad to see you go.

01:06:43   Wow.

01:06:45   Okay, so we've had this in the show notes for a couple of weeks.

01:06:48   Hasn't quite been long enough to bump it to overtime.

01:06:50   But on the 18th of November, there was a big, big, big outage.

01:06:55   Not the AWS outage, the other one.

01:06:56   So reading from the Cloudflare blog, on 18 November 2025 at 1120 UTC, Cloudflare's network began experiencing significant failures to deliver core network traffic.

01:07:06   This showed up to internet users trying to access our customer sites as an error page indicating a failure within Cloudflare's network.

01:07:12   The issue was not caused directly or indirectly by a cyber attack or malicious activity of any kind.

01:07:16   Instead, it was triggered by a change to one of our database system's permissions, which caused the database to output multiple entries into a feature file used by our bot management system.

01:07:25   That feature file, in turn, doubled in size.

01:07:27   The larger-than-expected feature file was then propagated to all the machines that make up our network.

01:07:32   Whoops.

01:07:33   The software running on these machines to route traffic across our network reads this feature file to keep our bot management system up to date with ever-changing threats.

01:07:41   The software had a limit on the size of the feature file that was below its doubled size.

01:07:45   That caused the software to fail.

01:07:46   A couple angles in the story.

01:07:48   First, as someone who's worked in, you know, online server-side stuff for 25 years, this failure is so textbook.

01:07:56   Like, if you read the details of it, you're like, if you've been in this industry, you're like, oh, I've had that happen.

01:08:00   Oh, I've done that.

01:08:01   Oh, I could totally see that.

01:08:02   Oh, I forget what it was in this one.

01:08:03   It was like an assumption, a missing filter on a query resulting in double, the limits, you know, the limits on the size seems like a good idea at the time.

01:08:11   But, like, and then the other thing that I feel like is depressing, because I complain about this at every company I was ever at, and you always hope, like, but surely, like, the big, competent companies don't do this, which is the lack of a staging environment that reflects production, where you can test changes in production.

01:08:26   Every company has this problem, right?

01:08:30   Yep.

01:08:31   What you want is, and by staging, I mean, production is the thing the customers use, and development is the thing the developers use.

01:08:36   It's broken or whatever.

01:08:37   And there are levels between there, and, like, the final one before production, we always used to call it staging in the companies I worked at, which is, it's supposed to be like production, but it's not actually production.

01:08:48   So, however production is set up, whatever hardware it's got, whatever software it's got, it's like a miniature version of production.

01:08:53   It has to be configured the same way, deployed to the same way.

01:08:55   It's just tiny.

01:08:56   It doesn't have millions of servers or whatever, and it's not accessed by millions of people, but it has to work the same.

01:09:02   So, if they had a representative staging environment, and they had deployed this change into that staging environment, all the machines would have, you know, the query would have gone afoul, run out a double-sized thing.

01:09:11   It would have been pushed out to everyone else.

01:09:13   They would have tried to load the double-sized file, and they all would have failed.

01:09:15   And it would be like, oh, that change you just put out, we just pushed it to staging, and it broke everything.

01:09:19   And so it wouldn't get to production, because you'd say, like, if we push it to production, it would break everything in production.

01:09:24   It's clear that there is not a staging environment that is sufficiently similar to production.

01:09:29   That is always the problem.

01:09:30   It's like, well, of course we have a staging environment.

01:09:31   Is it the same as production?

01:09:32   Mostly.

01:09:33   There are some minor differences, but surely those minor differences won't make a difference.

01:09:38   Like, oh, there's a different kernel version here, or, you know, we have hardware versions of this load balancer in production, but we have a software simulated version in staging.

01:09:47   You have to make it actually the same, because you never know where the problem is going to come up.

01:09:51   Maybe the problem will be, oh, this specific kernel version has this specific bug that triggers this thing, and that specific kernel version is only in production, and staging is, like, one patched revision different, and that was the part that you trip across.

01:10:04   So, you know, part of growing up is learning that no company has a competent staging environment, even someone as big and powerful as Clover.

01:10:13   Anyway, that's not mainly what I want to talk about here.

01:10:16   What I'm talking about here was this outage going by, and my strange reaction to it, which was, I should get on Cloudflare.

01:10:24   I swear to you, like, this, my first thought was, like, you know, reminiscing about all the problems I've had in production, how this is so typical, and down to those particular details, and the staging environment.

01:10:37   My second one was, I've been meaning to do stuff with Cloudflare.

01:10:41   And you would think this is not, like, why would you, a big company has an outage that attracts you to it as a customer?

01:10:47   It's like, that's where I want to be, the big company that had an outage due to incompetence that I'm familiar with from my working world.

01:10:54   Like, why would you want to do that?

01:10:56   Part of it is, I had the meaning to look into Cloudflare for stuff, and this is, like, a reminder, like, them just being in the news, like, oh, yeah, I meant to do that.

01:11:04   Part of it is the entirely wrongheaded notion that it's like, well, they just had a failure, so surely they're not going to have another one right after it, which is not logical or true in any way.

01:11:12   That's not how things work.

01:11:13   That's not how things work.

01:11:14   In fact, it may be more likely they're going to have another failure of it.

01:11:16   But anyway, that did pop into my mind.

01:11:18   And why am I interested in Cloudflare at all?

01:11:22   I think also because, like, Marco mentioned it recently in the context of ATP stuff or when you're talking about the episode artwork.

01:11:28   So it was, like, doubly in my mind from, like, a recent ATP and this giant outage.

01:11:32   And the reason I wanted to use it is I have, you know, my personal website on an incredibly inexpensive, crappy shared hosting service that's ancient that I really should move off of.

01:11:44   But I never want to get around to it because it's just, like, such a hassle.

01:11:47   And it's like, oh, it works fine.

01:11:48   I have a static website.

01:11:49   There's nothing on it.

01:11:50   It's just a bunch of text and images.

01:11:51   Like, it's not exciting in any way.

01:11:53   But there are some things that are annoying about it.

01:11:56   First, occasionally, my shared hosting and my virtual servers and whatever, like, I don't know, they get, like, swapped out or whatever.

01:12:03   And, like, the first hit to my website will take a couple seconds to load.

01:12:06   And you're like, what the hell?

01:12:07   I also have, like, an uptime monitoring service that I can see that my uptime has, like, three nines.

01:12:12   Because occasionally it goes down for reasons.

01:12:14   I'm like, ugh.

01:12:14   All right.

01:12:15   But it's so cheap.

01:12:16   My hosting is so cheap.

01:12:18   It's just a static website.

01:12:19   No one goes to my website anyway.

01:12:20   I don't get any traffic.

01:12:20   So who cares?

01:12:21   But it bothered me.

01:12:23   So I'm like, well, I could solve that by either moving everything to a different, you know, platform or putting something in front of it.

01:12:30   And the second thing is all my websites have, like, SSL certificates, especially, like, I have .app websites, like, switchclass.app and frontandcenter.app that just redirect somewhere.

01:12:38   But .app in particular has to be SSL.

01:12:41   So you need a certificate for it, even if all you're doing is it redirecting.

01:12:44   And, of course, my main website has SSL.

01:12:47   And I bought certificates for those years ago.

01:12:50   And I used to buy, like, the five-year certificates or whatever they would buy you.

01:12:53   But more recently with the upgrades to TLS.

01:12:55   You can buy a, quote, five-year certificate, but you have to reissue it every year.

01:13:00   Like, you paid for five years, but you have to reissue it every year.

01:13:03   And I don't know how long, but for many years, there's been a free service called Let's Encrypt at letscrypt.org that will give you free SSL certificates, including a script to manage it for you.

01:13:16   You don't have to do anything simple.

01:13:17   You set it and forget it, and it doesn't cost you any money.

01:13:20   It's great.

01:13:21   My crappy shared hosting service probably intentionally does not support Let's Encrypt.

01:13:25   And trying to do it manually would be difficult because of the way share hosting works.

01:13:30   I don't have my own web server.

01:13:31   It's a shared, but it's a mess or whatever.

01:13:33   So whenever I have to reissue my certificates, which now is, like, six certificates that I have to do every single year,

01:13:40   I have to create the certificate signing request with OpenSSL.

01:13:43   Oh, no.

01:13:45   Send it in and get the, like, you know, and I started making scripts to do it.

01:13:49   I'm like, I'm slowly, badly reinventing Let's Encrypt.

01:13:51   No, don't do this.

01:13:52   But it was still annoying because you had to, like, copy and paste it into their little cPanel interface.

01:13:59   And it was just, like, shared hosting.

01:14:01   I don't, I'm not running the server myself.

01:14:03   I don't have access to it.

01:14:04   I have to use their stupid interface.

01:14:05   And it annoyed me so much.

01:14:07   So Cloudflare.

01:14:08   Cloudflare to the rescue.

01:14:10   Because Cloudflare, one of the things they provide is SSL certificates.

01:14:15   They probably use Let's Encrypt or something similar with their own thing.

01:14:18   For free.

01:14:19   That they'll update.

01:14:20   That you don't have to worry about reassuring it.

01:14:22   They'll just do all that for you.

01:14:23   They also offer caching.

01:14:24   Which I'm like, well, when, if my site is down or slow, if I could just serve it from the Cloudflare's edge cache for the thing, that'll be great.

01:14:32   And that's also free.

01:14:34   And I figured, you know, why not try this?

01:14:38   Now, I had questions about it.

01:14:40   Particularly, like, how do you do this?

01:14:42   What does the Cloudflare interface look like?

01:14:44   What is the website?

01:14:44   Whatever.

01:14:45   So I did my usual thing, which is open up a couple browser windows.

01:14:49   Pull up my favorite LLM chatbot things and ask them exactly the same question.

01:14:54   Have them compete.

01:14:55   And see what they think.

01:14:57   Describe the situation.

01:14:58   Here's my current hosting.

01:14:59   I'm thinking I'm going to Cloudflare.

01:15:00   What do I have to do?

01:15:02   And then I look at all their answers.

01:15:04   And I do that out of academic curiosity.

01:15:07   But also because, like, when they say contradictory things such that only one of them can be right, it clues you in.

01:15:12   First of all, it helps you not trust everything they say.

01:15:15   Because you're like, well, these both can't be right.

01:15:16   Because they're contradictory.

01:15:17   Maybe they're both wrong.

01:15:19   Maybe one's wrong.

01:15:20   Maybe the other one's wrong.

01:15:21   But it lets you know, like, all right, this may be a little bit sketchy.

01:15:24   But the good thing is, in my third window or fourth window, I have actual Cloudflare open.

01:15:30   And I can see that menu item doesn't exist.

01:15:33   Maybe it's from an old version of Cloudflare.

01:15:34   But this one does or whatever.

01:15:35   So I can follow the instructions on how to do this.

01:15:37   I also had some questions, which was like, how is this going to work under the covers?

01:15:41   As a web developer, I know how many ways it could work.

01:15:44   But how does it actually work with Cloudflare?

01:15:46   Like, how does Cloudflare talk to your back end?

01:15:48   How do you deal with situations like .app domains?

01:15:51   Or like, if you wanted to talk SSL to what they call your origin server, don't you still need a certificate on your origin server?

01:15:58   They can use self-signed certificates, blah, blah, blah.

01:16:00   And the various, you know, I think the two I narrowed down to was Gemini and ChatGPT.

01:16:05   They both had similar answers here.

01:16:06   I still don't know if they're actually right, because they're describing what Cloudflare is doing internally, and I'm not privy to that.

01:16:12   But the explanation was sufficient for me to at least know what I'm looking out for.

01:16:16   They were trying to claim that it communicates over IP address to the thing, and they'll generate a self-signed certificate for you or whatever.

01:16:22   I don't know if that's actually true.

01:16:22   But anyway, all this is to say, it was like an afternoon.

01:16:26   An afternoon of just going through the interface.

01:16:29   An afternoon on my live site.

01:16:30   I'm like, I'll do it live.

01:16:31   No one goes to my site anyway.

01:16:32   It doesn't matter.

01:16:32   It was fine, especially since the DNS propagation takes a while anyway.

01:16:35   There's like a window in the middle there where I can screw things up, and then I tweaked the caching for a little bit, and it worked.

01:16:42   And I moved every one of my sites that had an SSL certificate to Cloudflare, and Cloudflare has now managed all of them for me, and I enabled caching and tweaked all those rules.

01:16:51   So the vast, vast majority of my traffic is now being cached at their CDN that's closer to the edge.

01:16:57   Is my site faster?

01:16:58   I don't know.

01:16:59   It was already pretty fast.

01:16:59   It's just text and images.

01:17:00   It's not really a complicated website, but it makes me happier.

01:17:03   And for the first time this year, I guess starting now, for the 12 months starting now, I will not have to manually renew or reissue any SSL certificates.

01:17:12   And by the way, everything that I've done in Cloudflare, 100% free, because their free plan offers all of this, which I think is a mistake.

01:17:19   But whatever.

01:17:20   I'll take it.

01:17:21   I was tempted to do that.

01:17:23   The next thing up is like $20 a month, and I'm tempted to do that just to see what the features are, but this is all for free.

01:17:28   And I know this is ridiculous for people like, dude, Let's Encrypt has existed for like 15 years.

01:17:32   Like, what are you even doing?

01:17:34   I know.

01:17:34   But I had, this is what happens when you have a website that's been around for a long time, or it's on a service that's been around for a long time.

01:17:40   You're behind the times.

01:17:41   I'm a bit like, who uses shared hosting?

01:17:44   Don't you know that you can get a free, dedicated server that you can control yourself for the same or less money with better?

01:17:50   Yeah, I do know that.

01:17:51   But it would require a lot more movingness.

01:17:53   This required me to do almost nothing.

01:17:55   It required me to click a bunch of things on Cloudflare.

01:17:57   And it required me to click a smaller number of things on my shared hosting thing.

01:18:01   And that was it.

01:18:03   And just the relief I feel from having, I don't know, six or seven websites all now being managed on Cloudflare with its SSL and not having to worry about any of that stuff on my shared hosting.

01:18:12   Just makes me feel good.

01:18:13   So, and I know Cloudflare, the company, has some questionable practices and some questionable things, and we've talked about them in the past or whatever.

01:18:20   But right now, I'm just feeling relief about finally doing something to my website that I wanted to do for a long time and eliminating one source of things that I have to worry about.

01:18:30   Now all I have to worry about is the next Cloudflare outage.

01:18:32   For what it's worth, we talked about this, I'm pretty sure, fairly briefly.

01:18:37   Callsheetapp.com is my marketing website for Callsheet.

01:18:42   It's also where if you share a link from Callsheet, it will share to a path within callsheetapp.com.

01:18:51   That is all on Cloudflare.

01:18:52   That is all running 100% free.

01:18:54   I don't think it's using Let's Encrypt from what I can tell from the certs on my website.

01:18:59   But either way, it is definitely complicated, their web interface.

01:19:05   I wouldn't say it's bad, but it's complicated.

01:19:07   I've never really used AWS, but the way people describe AWS is that it's this, but much worse.

01:19:12   Cloudflare is so much less complicated.

01:19:14   Yeah, no, no, I agree.

01:19:15   And also, by the way, Cloudflare is much nicer than cPanel, if you're familiar with that.

01:19:19   I feel like Cloudflare is a fairly straightforward interface.

01:19:21   cPanel is like you're back in the 90s somehow, and AWS is just a whole other world.

01:19:27   AWS is punitive.

01:19:28   Like, I had to log in the other day.

01:19:30   Like, for some reason, like, you know, Overcast uses it for all the uploads hosting for premium.

01:19:34   And for some reason, my credit card started being declined on AWS.

01:19:39   I don't, it's been the same credit card for years.

01:19:42   Like, it's been, I don't know why.

01:19:43   But it, so, you know, I have getting the message like, oh, your payment failed.

01:19:46   Go log in to make a payment.

01:19:48   So I log in and, like, because I hardly ever log in to AWS, trying to figure out how to pay them.

01:19:57   Like, oh, my, even that.

01:19:59   It's like, all right, first of all, do you log in as the root user or the IM user?

01:20:04   I don't know.

01:20:05   And they log in as the root and they yell at you.

01:20:07   Well, you shouldn't be doing anything.

01:20:08   It's like, oh, my God.

01:20:09   Just, I'm trying to pay you the money that you say I owe you.

01:20:13   And then you finally get in and it's like, okay, well, you know, here, here's your credit card form.

01:20:17   Okay, great.

01:20:18   Hit submit.

01:20:19   And it's like, all right, your payment's been accepted.

01:20:21   Cool.

01:20:22   All right.

01:20:23   And then, you know, five minutes later, you get an email.

01:20:25   Your payment wasn't accepted.

01:20:26   Oh, my God.

01:20:26   Oh, fun.

01:20:27   Go back in and then you change.

01:20:28   Like, doing anything for AWS is an exercise in massive frustration.

01:20:35   Like, yeah, Cloudflare, I mean, granted, Cloudflare does a lot less.

01:20:40   And so that's part of why they can be so much simpler on their control panel.

01:20:45   But, like, not, like, they're still a pretty, you know, mature product and they still have a lot of features.

01:20:51   And so, like, I think they just manage a substantially better, you know, usability design.

01:20:57   And, like, AWS is just enterprise software.

01:21:01   And so every single thing there is cluttered up with a billion enterprise features that, like, yeah, two customers wanted that, so they added it.

01:21:10   And it's just, there's so much complexity there to do what should be very simple things.

01:21:16   Cloudflare seems like...

01:21:17   To use a Merlin word, only snorks use the AWS web interface.

01:21:20   You realize that?

01:21:20   Like, that's kind of, like, yes, the AWS web interface is a mess.

01:21:23   That's not what you're supposed to be using.

01:21:24   Serious people interface with it through the API.

01:21:27   And I know it doesn't help you with your credit card thing.

01:21:29   But, again, serious people, I don't know how, pay with purchase orders for millions of dollars.

01:21:33   But, like, AWS and the web interface is, like, that's not, that's not how it's meant to be used, kind of.

01:21:39   Like, there's this whole third-party companies, like, CloudFormation and all this stuff, like, that exist to be a middleware layer between your programs and the AWS API.

01:21:50   And nowhere in there should humans be clicking around at a web interface because that's not repeatable.

01:21:54   It's not, like, it's, you want it to be automated.

01:21:56   I'm not sure humans ever have clicked around this interface.

01:21:58   I don't think we can figure it out.

01:22:02   Like, I barely figured it out and only to do a very, very basic thing.

01:22:06   Oh, man, what a mess.

01:22:08   Yeah, CloudFlare is much nicer.

01:22:09   CloudFlare is, like, a more modern version of cPanel, like, with knowledge of the web past 1996.

01:22:14   And not to trash cPanel.

01:22:17   CPanel is actually kind of amazing for the amount of functionality it provides.

01:22:20   But it is a time capsule to a different time.

01:22:24   And CloudFlare is just a modern web interface to the functionality it provides.

01:22:28   And they do a good job of, like, having lots of help links and explaining to you what they mean.

01:22:32   Like, when they use jargon to explain their features, it's like, well, this is what we mean when we say this.

01:22:36   This is what we mean when we say that.

01:22:37   You have to learn the vocabulary.

01:22:38   I was fairly impressed with how well it worked.

01:22:40   And on the ChatGPT and Gemini front, Mark, you mentioned before, like, asking it for screw sizes or whatever and saying, like, I didn't even check.

01:22:50   Well, you did, because that's the thing, that's the reason I think this is a perfect application for LMs.

01:22:56   I'm going to immediately find out if the thing it's telling me to do works.

01:23:00   Because I'm literally clicking on a web interface and then loading my web, you know, like, it either works or it doesn't.

01:23:05   And I'm testing it immediately.

01:23:07   You bought those screws without trying to verify the information.

01:23:09   The way you verified it is if you got those screws home and tried to put them in the back of the TV and they didn't fit, you would know immediately.

01:23:14   Wrong screw.

01:23:16   There's no, like, condition where you would, like, have no idea that it was the wrong screw and put it in and two days later your TV would explode.

01:23:22   That would never happen.

01:23:23   You can tell when a screw is the wrong size.

01:23:25   It either fits or it doesn't.

01:23:26   That is the ideal use case for LMs.

01:23:29   Something that can be verified very quickly and unambiguously.

01:23:34   I was trying to think of this analogy on a recent Rectives episode.

01:23:37   But it's like, with encryption, like, I'm sure there's a word for this or a term of R, but, like, you want something that, when you get the right answer, it's trivial to confirm that the answer is right.

01:23:49   But it's really hard to get the right answer.

01:23:51   Like, you're doing prime factors and numbers and whatever.

01:23:54   You know, you can tell the number is right.

01:23:56   The answer is right instantly.

01:23:59   But how do you find the right answer?

01:24:00   That takes computational, you know, millennia or whatever, right?

01:24:03   That's what the ideal is.

01:24:05   And the ideal for LMs is anything that you will immediately be able to check whether it's right.

01:24:11   That's what you do, right?

01:24:13   And so that kind of excludes things like health information where it's like, well, maybe, you know, if it's telling me to, you know, eat donuts every day, I won't find out until I have a heart attack 20 years from now or whatever.

01:24:21   But, like, if it tells you a screw size and the screw size is wrong, you're going to find out real quick.

01:24:26   If it tells me to do this on the website and then this will happen and I do it and it doesn't happen, guess what?

01:24:30   I just found out whether it's right or wrong.

01:24:32   So, and the only reason I'm doing the competition with the two of them is just, you know, because it's kind of fun to see the different approaches and so I can compare them and maybe give me a slightly better chance of not doing something dumb where I see there's differences between them.

01:24:43   It makes me, you know, put up my antenna or whatever.

01:24:45   But in the end, like, as I started to progress through the thing, I'm like, I'd no longer looked at the LLM's instructions and just started doing it myself because you sort of figure out the interface.

01:24:53   So that's what I suggest to people.

01:24:55   Use LLM's for what they're good for and they're good for basically anything that you can immediately check and that the consequences of it are not a big deal.

01:25:02   Mark, I would have to make a second trip to the hardware store.

01:25:04   Oh, no.

01:25:05   I'm sure he's familiar with that.

01:25:07   But if you get lucky and you don't, there you go.

01:25:09   The guy at the hardware store checkout was like, see you later?

01:25:11   And I said, probably.

01:25:13   Well, I mean, maybe not for this, but for something else.

01:25:15   No, I'm glad it worked out, John.

01:25:17   Again, my experience with Cloudflare has been extremely positive and I'm very impressed with what I was able to get away with for free, like you had said.

01:25:26   And at some point, I will probably follow in your footsteps and look at, you know, what would it take to move my website over there?

01:25:34   Now, mine is not static as it stands.

01:25:36   It's a little bit more complicated.

01:25:37   But nevertheless, I bet you I could find a way to put it in there without too much work.

01:25:41   And to be clear, I didn't move my website anywhere.

01:25:43   All I'm doing is sending the traffic through Cloudflare.

01:25:47   I moved my DNS to Cloudflare, sort of.

01:25:49   I mean, I still have all the DNS on Hover.

01:25:51   It's complicated.

01:25:52   But anyway, the point is, network, when you make a request to hypercritical.co or switchglass.app or front and center.app or front hyphen and hyphen center hyphen.app.

01:25:59   Anyway, if you make a request to any of these things, you are hitting an IP address controlled by Cloudflare, which goes through their network and then it makes it proxies a back-end request to my quote-unquote origin server in Cloudflare parlance, which is called a million other things and a million other services.

01:26:16   And that hits my actual server.

01:26:17   Oh.

01:26:18   The actual server is still exactly where it has always been on my crappy shared hosting.

01:26:22   But there is now a CDN in front of it and the Cloudflare network and they manage all this SSL's termination between the client and you.

01:26:31   It's still SSL between Cloudflare and my server, but it's using a self-signed 15-year certificate that only Cloudflare trusts.

01:26:36   Anyway, you don't have to worry about it.

01:26:38   But the point is, I didn't have to move my website.

01:26:40   I didn't have to change anything about it.

01:26:42   Gotcha.

01:26:42   Well, still, I'm glad you got that covered.

01:26:44   We are sponsored this episode by Delete Me.

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01:28:39   Thank you so much to Delete Me for sponsoring our show.

01:28:42   Let's do some Ask ATP, and Tony West writes,

01:28:48   My wife's name is Paula.

01:28:50   Since 18.4, Siri has been pronouncing her name as Paula.

01:28:53   I put the phonetic pronunciation in her contact card.

01:28:55   It sort of worked, but it's gotten worse again.

01:28:57   What is going on here?

01:28:58   How did this person in the phone just forget the pronunciation, and how do I fix it?

01:29:02   Coincidentally, earlier today, I was talking to my friend John, who writes channels,

01:29:07   and he was complaining, justifiably, that for some reason, Siri always autocorrects C-H-R-I-S to K-R-I-S.

01:29:15   And I theorized, oh, well, I bet you have a contact, you know, that's named Chris, K-R-I-S, in your phone.

01:29:23   He said, nope, definitely don't.

01:29:25   I don't have a good answer for this, so one of you are going to have to take this.

01:29:28   Well, I mean, I saw this fly by, and I thought this was a fun thing, because I've dealt with this before.

01:29:33   In fact, we've probably talked about it on ATP before.

01:29:36   The wonderful voice assistant in your phone, if you have an Apple phone, has had a feature for many years,

01:29:41   where if it said your name, and you didn't like how it pronounced it, you could say,

01:29:46   that's not how you pronounce my name.

01:29:48   And it would say, okay, how should I pronounce your name?

01:29:51   And you would say your name the way you want it to be pronounced.

01:29:54   And then it would say, okay, from now on, I'll call you whatever you said.

01:30:00   Have any of you used that feature?

01:30:01   It's been around for years.

01:30:02   I'm aware of it, but I've never used it.

01:30:04   Well, it has been used in my household, to great comic effect, because back in the day,

01:30:10   Tiff would say, call me Tiff, and it would say, okay, from now on, I will call you Tiff.

01:30:14   Cool.

01:30:16   No, call me Tiff.

01:30:19   Okay, Tiff.

01:30:20   From now on, I will call you Tiff.

01:30:22   Now, I actually have a different problem, which is, at some point in the last maybe two years or so,

01:30:30   again, nothing in my contacts has changed about my wife in the last two years.

01:30:34   But at some point in the last two years, my phone has started frequently auto-correcting Tiff to

01:30:41   Tiff, the all capital...

01:30:45   The tagged image file format.

01:30:46   Yes, the file format name.

01:30:48   So I assume there is a database in the phone of known terms and proper nouns and things like that,

01:30:56   trademarks.

01:30:57   And at some point, the tagged image file format got in there in the last few years.

01:31:01   And so now, even though she is, like, the contact I, like, you know, have the most frequent contact

01:31:08   with on my phone, and her name is not Tiffany on the phone, it's Tiff.

01:31:12   Like, so I'm like, it's the first name of my wife.

01:31:14   How could you possibly downrank that from anything else?

01:31:17   But nope, nevertheless, in many contexts in the phone when typing Tiff, it comes out as all capitals.

01:31:23   Yeah, so when I saw this, I figured, let me just do it on my phone just to fresh my memory

01:31:28   before we answer this on the show.

01:31:29   Um, and like so many things involving Apple's voice assistant, just because a thing used to

01:31:36   exist and you've used it for maybe years doesn't mean it still exists or works, right?

01:31:42   And it was just a comedy of errors.

01:31:45   I'm sitting at my desk, my computer desk, with my phone.

01:31:49   I hold the side button to activate Siri.

01:31:52   And I say, um, first I just want to hear how it pronounces my name.

01:31:58   I say, how do you pronounce my name?

01:31:59   It puts up a text bubble and says, uh, well, you're John.

01:32:06   You asking me?

01:32:06   And I say, pronounce my last name.

01:32:10   Oh, well, no one can do that.

01:32:11   Sometimes I have to hit the side button to make it do it.

01:32:13   By the way, it just, it just showed text.

01:32:14   It didn't say anything.

01:32:15   I'm like, I'm like, is the volume down on my phone?

01:32:17   I start hitting the volume button.

01:32:18   I'm like, no, the volume's not down.

01:32:19   I'm, it's comical.

01:32:22   I'm trying to get it to say my name.

01:32:23   I'm saying, Siri, say my name.

01:32:25   It will, not only will it not say my name and give me snarky replies of like, you're John.

01:32:31   That's what you told me.

01:32:32   It's never speaking audibly.

01:32:34   It is only showing text bubbles.

01:32:36   Like, am I going, have I gone deaf?

01:32:38   Again, I'm hitting the volume buttons.

01:32:40   Like, why is it not?

01:32:42   I, why is it not speaking to me?

01:32:45   I do this for a little while, arguing with the thing, trying to literally ever get it

01:32:49   to say my last name or say anything.

01:32:51   It's not even saying John.

01:32:52   It's not making any audible noise.

01:32:54   It is just putting text boxes.

01:32:55   I'm like, did I accidentally hit tap to Siri?

01:32:57   No, I didn't do that.

01:32:58   Eventually, I hear my HomePod in the other room say something audibly to me that says, you

01:33:05   know, you're John.

01:33:06   You're asking me what your name is?

01:33:07   I think you're John.

01:33:08   Like, HomePod, you're a room away.

01:33:11   I can't even believe you could hear me.

01:33:12   I mean, meanwhile, my phone is still dead silent.

01:33:16   So my new theory is turn off the screen on the phone.

01:33:19   Maybe it's because the screen is on and I'm holding the phone and I'm looking at it.

01:33:21   It doesn't want to talk to me.

01:33:22   And that finally gets my phone to start saying things.

01:33:25   But I still cannot get it to say my last name.

01:33:28   I can't, I can't get the opportunity to do what I had done in the past, which was, that's

01:33:33   not how you say my name.

01:33:34   That's what I always said to it in the past.

01:33:36   When it would say my last name and I would say, that's not how you say my name, we would

01:33:39   reply, please say your name, how you want to say it.

01:33:42   And I would say it, blah, blah, blah.

01:33:43   Instead, I was just getting text bubbles and eventually audio that was telling me, you can

01:33:48   change this in the contacts app.

01:33:49   Like it did like their product knowledge thing, like go to the contacts app and find, you know,

01:33:53   hit the edit field.

01:33:54   And it's telling you to add a custom field to your contact where you can fit, oh, what is

01:33:57   it called?

01:33:58   Find the name of the thing.

01:34:00   The phonetic pronunciation?

01:34:01   Yeah.

01:34:02   Did I just lose it?

01:34:04   Or am I not on the edit screen here?

01:34:06   Yeah.

01:34:07   Phonetic pronunciation, I think it's called.

01:34:08   Let me, maybe I have to X out of that.

01:34:10   I don't know how it doesn't show all the fields.

01:34:13   Yeah.

01:34:13   I can't tell what it's, I can't tell what it's called because Alan Dye has been on the

01:34:16   screen and has made it so that you can only see the label as dim gray text if there's

01:34:19   nothing in the field.

01:34:20   But once there's something in the field, like it says on the edit screen, the first line

01:34:26   says John, second one says Syracusa.

01:34:27   And the third line says my pronunciation, but I only know that because what looks like a

01:34:32   pronunciation there.

01:34:32   And then the fourth line says in dim gray text company and it's blank.

01:34:35   Anyway.

01:34:36   Labels.

01:34:37   You don't need to see them when there's something already in the field, right?

01:34:38   You'll always know what it is, right?

01:34:40   So it's telling me to do that.

01:34:43   But again, it's, and now it's not talking to me anymore.

01:34:45   Now it's just showing me text.

01:34:46   And I'm like, okay, like, but when I put something there, I don't know how you're going to pronounce

01:34:51   it.

01:34:51   Like, what do I put in the pronunciation field?

01:34:53   Do I put like, do I use the whatever, like the phonetic alphabet that you see in a dictionary?

01:34:59   Do I just try to like sound it out?

01:35:00   Do I put a bunch of other words that sound like the words I want you to put in there?

01:35:03   Do I have to, you know, I need you to say my name.

01:35:06   I just could not get it to do it.

01:35:09   And it like, it was maddening.

01:35:12   I'm like, no normal person would ever tolerate what I tolerated trying to get this to happen

01:35:17   for the show.

01:35:17   But of course, I'm pigheaded.

01:35:18   I'm going to, I'm going to make it happen.

01:35:20   Eventually, so I did type something in that phonetic pronunciation.

01:35:24   I tried a couple things.

01:35:25   Eventually, I did get it to start saying my name.

01:35:27   I've actually already forgotten how I got it to say my name.

01:35:29   But eventually, it did start saying my name.

01:35:32   And I got it into a loop where I could change the contents of that text field and then say

01:35:35   whatever I said successfully.

01:35:36   Again, turning off the screen and putting it down so my HomePod won't do it.

01:35:40   And so it'll just, it was ridiculous.

01:35:41   Here's what I wrote in the field.

01:35:44   S-E-R-R-A space, the word Q, like Q-U-E-U-E, not like C-U-E, but like a line, Q, Q-U-E-U-E space

01:35:54   S-A-H.

01:35:56   I was afraid it was going to space that out as three words, but it turns out that if you

01:36:00   type that in the field, Siri says Syracusa.

01:36:04   Wait, so tell me again what you wrote.

01:36:06   It's S-E-R-R-A space, Q-U-E-U-E space S-A-H.

01:36:13   I never in a million years would have learned that.

01:36:16   There's a lot of experimentation led to this because I typed all sorts of other things and

01:36:19   it would say things that were ridiculous.

01:36:21   But this, for whatever reason, this madness, you know, only the middle thing is a word.

01:36:27   I don't think S-E-R-A is a word.

01:36:29   I don't think S-A-H is a word, but some Scrabble person probably telling me they're both words.

01:36:32   But anyway, Q-U-E-U-E is a word because I was trying to get, how do I get it to say the

01:36:36   letter Q?

01:36:36   If I just put the letter Q, they're like, so Tony, I'm here to tell you it is possible

01:36:43   to use the phonetic pronunciation thing and get it to pronounce your name right once.

01:36:49   Will it stay that way?

01:36:51   Nice.

01:36:52   Will it be that way tomorrow?

01:36:53   Why did it even work now?

01:36:55   Why did I have to argue with my phone across and my HomePod to get this to work?

01:37:00   All this is to say, I would, is this JJ's fault?

01:37:05   I mean, all I gotta say is that Siri has not gotten better and there seems to be a technology

01:37:11   that exists in the world that could, at the very least, allow me to say, hey, dingus, here's

01:37:17   how you pronounce my name and have it say, okay, please pronounce your name.

01:37:20   And I would pronounce it and then I would say, please say my name back and it would do it.

01:37:23   I feel like that is attainable with today's technology, not attainable with Siri without

01:37:29   a huge fight.

01:37:29   Wow.

01:37:31   Today I learned.

01:37:33   Have you, you should both try it now.

01:37:34   Try to get your phone to say your name, last name, first name, first name, first name.

01:37:38   We're really doing this live?

01:37:39   Yeah.

01:37:39   You can cut it out of the show.

01:37:41   I just want to see you both try to do it.

01:37:42   Say my name.

01:37:43   It just says, you're asking me, comma, Marco?

01:37:46   Say my name.

01:37:48   The snark is not as funny when it doesn't work.

01:37:50   Did it say anything audibly or is it just text?

01:37:52   No, it's just text.

01:37:52   Yeah, I got the same thing.

01:37:53   Why is it not speaking to you?

01:37:55   I don't know.

01:37:56   Ask it the weather and see if it speaks to you.

01:37:58   What's the weather?

01:37:59   It's currently clear and 36.

01:38:03   It talks to you.

01:38:04   But when you want it to say your name, no speech.

01:38:06   Huh.

01:38:06   Siri, speak my name.

01:38:07   In text only, you're Casey.

01:38:12   That's what you told me anyway.

01:38:13   Speak Casey's name.

01:38:15   You'll need to unlock your...

01:38:17   Say no, my last name, my family name, my surname.

01:38:19   I don't know.

01:38:20   I don't know what to tell you, Siri.

01:38:21   Man, that's wild.

01:38:23   It's not so easy.

01:38:24   And the little tiny bit of like personality and snark just makes you angrier.

01:38:29   All right.

01:38:29   Thanks to our sponsors this episode, Squarespace, Aura Frames, and Delete Me.

01:38:34   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:38:36   You can join us at atp.fm slash join.

01:38:39   One of the perks of membership, one of the many perks of membership is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic.

01:38:45   This week on Overtime, we are going to be talking about a rumor of an Apple and Intel chip partnership to possibly make Mac chips again, which is very interesting.

01:38:56   So we'll talk about that in Overtime.

01:38:58   You can join and listen at atp.fm slash join.

01:39:00   Thanks, everybody, for listening.

01:39:01   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:04   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:13   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:13   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:14   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:16   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:19   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:19   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:21   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:24   We'll talk to you next week.

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01:39:27   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:29   We'll talk to you next week.

01:39:51   Real-time follow-up chat room says, say, what's my full name?

01:40:11   All right.

01:40:11   Hold on.

01:40:11   What's my full name?

01:40:13   It's Casey Liss.

01:40:15   Look at that.

01:40:16   You have British Siri?

01:40:17   Yes, I do.

01:40:18   And it's doing the Liss pun because it doesn't do it as Casey Liss.

01:40:22   It's like Casey Liss.

01:40:23   You lack Casey.

01:40:24   Yeah.

01:40:25   You are Casey Liss.

01:40:26   I am.

01:40:27   I'm without a Casey.

01:40:27   What's my full name?

01:40:28   It's Marco Arment.

01:40:30   Yeah, mine was fine.

01:40:31   I mean, yeah, yeah.

01:40:32   Marco has a straightforward pronunciation of his name and Liss is also pretty.

01:40:36   Anyway, I'm glad we found a way to say the full name.

01:40:39   And if I had known that specific phrasing, I would have used it.

01:40:43   All right.

01:40:44   So I got news recently that there was, let me get this right.

01:40:51   Let me open this link.

01:40:51   There is a New York bagel fest.

01:40:54   And apparently this is a thing where you don't call them.

01:40:58   They call you.

01:40:59   And there's a bunch of people or a bunch of different bagel shops from around the country,

01:41:04   as far as I recall.

01:41:05   Wait, not from New York?

01:41:07   Well, including, but not exclusively New York.

01:41:11   Many are from New York.

01:41:12   It's apparently the 25 best bagel places in the world.

01:41:17   And over 2,000 people cast votes.

01:41:19   And I am extremely happy to tell you that the local shop Baltic's Bagels here in Richmond

01:41:26   earned the People's Choice Award in New York City for People's Choice Best Bagel in the 2025

01:41:35   New York Bagel Fest.

01:41:36   What now, John Syracuse?

01:41:37   The good bagels exist outside of New York.

01:41:39   How do you like them apples?

01:41:41   You know, we get those emails to the ATP address that's like,

01:41:44   get your podcast listed in the top 100 podcasts.

01:41:49   Like all sorts of things like that.

01:41:52   And get your app included in this, in this contest.

01:41:55   And we ignore it because we just assume it's spam and a scam.

01:41:57   And mostly because it's like, well, sometimes you have to pay money to enter.

01:42:01   Right.

01:42:02   And it's just like, who's judging this?

01:42:05   Like, is this, why would I want to participate in this type of thing?

01:42:08   It just seems like the type of thing that we should just ignore.

01:42:11   And so we do.

01:42:12   And I have to imagine this Bagel Fest contest thing, including bagels from all over the

01:42:17   world, is the type of thing that the good bagel shops in New York ignore.

01:42:21   The way we ignore those emails about podcasts.

01:42:24   Now, I'm not saying the bagels that won this are bad bagels or whatever.

01:42:29   It kind of gets back to, I thought, it's not actually something I'm going to discuss in

01:42:31   the rectives.

01:42:32   I think it's an upcoming episode of Robot or Not, where I talked about the idea of like,

01:42:36   it was like a bagel company in Colorado and people who are from Long Island.

01:42:42   Maybe it was rectives.

01:42:42   I don't remember.

01:42:43   All these podcasts blend together.

01:42:44   But when you go somewhere else in the country or when you present other people with like

01:42:51   your hometown food or whatever, and you expect, surely they'll love this because this is the

01:42:58   best, you know, Philly cheesesteak or this is the best New York bagel or whatever.

01:43:02   Those people have no affection for or knowledge of the regional food product you're presenting

01:43:08   them with.

01:43:08   So you take great pains to faithfully reproduce the exact thing that you want.

01:43:12   So this is an authentic Philly cheesesteak.

01:43:14   It's exactly how it is in Philly.

01:43:16   But here I am in California and you give it to Californians and they're like, they don't

01:43:20   know what a Philly cheesesteak is supposed to taste like.

01:43:21   They have, they have no fondness for it.

01:43:24   They have no nostalgia for it, nor can they judge whether you've successfully reproduced the

01:43:28   thing that you love from Philadelphia.

01:43:30   And so you're sad when you present it to them.

01:43:33   They're like, eh, shrug.

01:43:34   And they go next door and get, you know, something with avocado on it or whatever, right?

01:43:38   Sorry, Californians.

01:43:40   I don't know which stereotype to use for you.

01:43:41   It's a big state, lots of diversity.

01:43:43   I feel like that's the same situation with these bagels here.

01:43:47   I'm sure the people who live near these bagel places like them.

01:43:51   They're big New Yorkers voting, John.

01:43:54   Jesus Christ.

01:43:55   Well, so which New Yorkers do you think are participating in Bagel Fest?

01:43:58   I don't, I don't know.

01:44:00   Is it Citi Field?

01:44:01   How is, how is it so fucking inconceivable to you that there exists a good bagel outside

01:44:07   of New York?

01:44:07   What's inconceivable to me was that the best one is in Virginia.

01:44:10   That's what's inconceivable.

01:44:11   No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

01:44:12   I didn't say the best.

01:44:13   I said people's choice.

01:44:15   Well, whatever.

01:44:16   The best bagel, the best bagel is apparently in Dallas of all places.

01:44:20   See, that's what I'm, that's what I'm saying, right?

01:44:23   Like, I, I, there's, you could have a good food product that people enjoy, but it doesn't

01:44:28   mean it is an authentic reproduction.

01:44:29   Like that, that person who's in Colorado, who's making authentic New York bagels in Colorado,

01:44:33   maybe he is making authentic New York bagels in Colorado, right?

01:44:36   But the Colorado people don't know or care about that.

01:44:39   They're, the people voting are voting in Citi Field in New York City.

01:44:44   Right.

01:44:44   Now, yes, okay.

01:44:45   What, people who want free bagels?

01:44:46   Is that who's voting?

01:44:47   Jesus Christ, John.

01:44:49   Oh my God.

01:44:49   You are so fucking insufferable.

01:44:51   It blows my mind.

01:44:52   For the record, the-

01:44:54   I'm, I'm supporting your idea here because what I'm saying is that there's nothing inherently

01:44:57   superior about New York bagels.

01:44:58   It's just what New Yorkers want.

01:45:00   That's what I'm getting at.

01:45:01   Like, it's not like they're any better or worse, but New Yorkers want New York bagels.

01:45:05   And to the degree that you can simulate that elsewhere, fine, but that doesn't make you

01:45:08   successful in those other regions.

01:45:09   And if you want New York bagels, just get them in New York.

01:45:11   And I'll also add that the bagel seed of my use, as we've discussed, has changed significantly.

01:45:16   We've talked about rainbow bagels and all the other madness that goes on.

01:45:20   So people putting caraway seeds on everything bagels, it's really just, you know, things have

01:45:24   changed.

01:45:24   But for the record, the third runner-up for People's Choice is Town Bagel, which is listed

01:45:29   on this website, which is going to make you so happy, as Long Island.

01:45:32   Yeah.

01:45:33   That's all I got.

01:45:34   Long Island.

01:45:35   But best of the boroughs, the winner was Essa Bagel, which I went to when we were in

01:45:39   Manhattan over the summer, and it's freaking great.

01:45:41   And you know what they also have?

01:45:43   Rainbow bagels.

01:45:44   What now?

01:45:45   Everybody has rainbow bagels.

01:45:46   Mm-hmm.

01:45:46   Everybody.

01:45:47   So anyway, so Baltics Bagels here in Richmond, they won the People's Choice Award.

01:45:51   By coincidence, they're not that close to where I live.

01:45:55   Richmond, admittedly, is not a very big town, but not that close to where I live.

01:45:58   However, I had to run an errand very near to where they are.

01:46:01   And so I thought, you know what?

01:46:02   I'm going to go in and I'm going to get a dozen Baltics Bagels.

01:46:05   And I got a dozen plain bagels.

01:46:07   I'm of the opinion that plain is the baseline by which you can measure everything.

01:46:11   Oh, no.

01:46:12   I like other bagels, don't get me wrong, but I personally believe that if you can't do

01:46:17   a plain bagel right, you're screwed.

01:46:18   And the texture of this bagel was just chef's kiss spot on perfect.

01:46:24   However, they were the saltiest fucking plain bagels I've ever had in my life.

01:46:29   I don't know if it was.

01:46:30   It's kind of like the people in TV shops picking out the TV that's the brightest and has the

01:46:34   most exaggerated colors.

01:46:35   So they put the most salt in the bagel and it wins this whatever.

01:46:37   I don't know.

01:46:38   I mean, this is the only time this is the only time I've ever been.

01:46:40   So maybe it was an off batch.

01:46:41   I don't know.

01:46:42   But they were astonishingly salty for a plain bagel.

01:46:45   I kind of agree with Marco that like if you want to judge a bagel place, I know what you're

01:46:49   saying with the plan.

01:46:50   It's like, look, you got to get the basics right too.

01:46:52   But one of the essential skills or attributes of a bagel place is how they deal with stuff

01:47:00   on the bagel.

01:47:00   So I feel like my go to for like the equivalent of just try the plain cheese pizza would be

01:47:05   like sesame or poppy because then you get to see what is their philosophy on putting stuff

01:47:11   on the bagel because some places cover every square inch of the bagel with sesame seeds and

01:47:15   sometimes they're double layered and some places put three sesame seeds in the bagel and that

01:47:19   lets you know what kind of place this is.

01:47:21   You really have you can't get a plain and learn that.

01:47:23   So you have to get something on the bagel and sesame and poppy are pretty neutral.

01:47:26   No, you got to go everything.

01:47:29   You got to get an everything bagel.

01:47:30   Well, I mean, everything teaches you like whether they use caraway seeds, whether they put salt

01:47:34   on the everything and all sorts of other crap like that.

01:47:35   Yeah, it does.

01:47:36   It's a it's a very broad test.

01:47:38   Yeah, no, I agree.

01:47:39   If I wasn't going to do plain, everything is it.

01:47:41   It does teach you how they deal with toppings, but I feel like some places, even if they put

01:47:47   three sesame seeds on tend to overdo it on the everything.

01:47:50   So everything can be a false signal in that.

01:47:52   Oh, this place puts lots of toppings on.

01:47:53   Then you get a poppy and there's two poppy seeds on it.

01:47:55   But why?

01:47:56   Why would you ever order anything else besides an everything bagel if the everything bagel

01:47:59   was good?

01:48:00   There are other bagels in the world.

01:48:01   I know you like everything, but there are other.

01:48:03   But, you know, when I just got bagels that are not a new bagel place, but a bagel place

01:48:07   at the request of someone that my daughter goes to school with.

01:48:09   She wanted it from a particular place that I don't particularly enjoy, but it's not terrible.

01:48:12   But anyway, two things.

01:48:14   One, and this is another being me being an old man thing.

01:48:17   I went to this bagel place.

01:48:19   I've been there before, but I didn't remember it was years ago because I decided they weren't

01:48:22   for me.

01:48:23   I go in there and I'm giving bagel counts and it occurs to me I had never been to this

01:48:27   place before and the person was like, I said a dozen bagel and they were like counting

01:48:31   down and I was like, I mean, I sounded dumb when I said this, but I knew what I, I hope

01:48:36   that in the context of a bagel shop, they would know this.

01:48:38   I would say, how many bagels are in a dozen?

01:48:40   Anybody who's from New York knows why I would ask that question.

01:48:42   Because it's never 12 and it's, but it's not always the same number.

01:48:45   Could be 13.

01:48:46   Sometimes it's 14.

01:48:48   Right.

01:48:48   You know what this person said to me?

01:48:50   12.

01:48:52   This is a bagel place that sells you a dozen bagels and they give you 12 bagels.

01:48:59   Now I know this isn't, this is pointless.

01:49:00   It's like, well, they just changed the price.

01:49:02   Who cares?

01:49:02   Whatever.

01:49:03   It's a cultural thing.

01:49:04   If you're a bagel place, you should not ever sell a dozen, 12 bagels in a dozen.

01:49:09   So I was like, I cannot believe this.

01:49:11   I am, I am offended.

01:49:13   I'm offended as a New Yorker, as a Long Islander, that you would have the audacity to sell 12 bagels.

01:49:19   You know, there are like, there's like 500.

01:49:22   German listeners who are just like, they're like, what are, what is he complaining about?

01:49:26   It's a baker's dozen is 13 and a Long Island dozen, I guess, is 14.

01:49:30   But either way, it's never 12.

01:49:32   Yeah.

01:49:33   But anyway, I had to ask them to put the everything bagels in a separate bag, which I should never

01:49:36   have to ask them because they must be segregated.

01:49:39   Yeah.

01:49:39   If you have to, I am of the belief that if you have to ask them to separate the everything

01:49:44   bagel, that 100% brings them down a notch.

01:49:46   Or onion bagels.

01:49:47   Yeah.

01:49:47   Because again, like, because what that, what that tells you is like, maybe they don't serve

01:49:52   a lot of those bagels or maybe the people here, you know, don't feel that strongly about their

01:49:56   bagel flavors.

01:49:56   And like that, neither one of those is a good sign.

01:49:58   It's just bad bagel service.

01:50:00   I mean, it should, the default is everything in a separate, if they say don't bother with

01:50:03   a separate bag, fine, but I shouldn't have to say anything.

01:50:05   So, yeah.

01:50:06   No, there is, in my personal opinion, and we've talked about this many times, there is a pretty

01:50:10   good bagel, bagel shop by me.

01:50:12   I'm not saying it's equivalent to New York, but given how far we are from New York, it's

01:50:16   pretty good.

01:50:17   However, they have two critical flaws.

01:50:19   Number one, I, there's something about the everything bagel that just isn't quite right.

01:50:22   I don't think it's caraway.

01:50:23   I personally am not offended by salt on an everything bagel, but there's something about it that

01:50:27   just doesn't, this is not quite there.

01:50:28   So I agree with you, Marco.

01:50:29   So if I wasn't going to do a plain bagel as my, like, litmus test, everything is absolutely

01:50:33   the next thing on my list.

01:50:34   But the other problem this local shop has is that it doesn't separate everything into its

01:50:40   own bag, and it drives me freaking crazy.

01:50:41   Oh, no.

01:50:41   You can ask them to do it, but you shouldn't have to.

01:50:43   Oh, sure, sure, sure.

01:50:44   But you shouldn't have to.

01:50:45   But the correct behavior for a bagelologist in this situation is to ask, do you want those

01:50:50   in a separate bag?

01:50:51   That's standard procedure.

01:50:53   Anyway, I just thought it was funny.

01:50:55   I should have known that I was going to get enraged by this, but that's okay.

01:50:59   But I thought it was funny that the Richmond, the Podunk Richmond, Virginia bagel shop won

01:51:04   people's choice.

01:51:05   Not the best, mind you, but people's choice.

01:51:07   And then you had their bagels and didn't like them, so sad ending to the story.

01:51:10   They were good, but they were way too salty.

01:51:13   And I would like to try again at some point.

01:51:15   This errand I was running does happen a couple of times a year, so I'll probably go and try

01:51:20   them again.

01:51:20   And maybe I'll try on everything this time as well.

01:51:22   But yeah, that was disappointing.

01:51:24   Again, but the texture was so perfect.

01:51:27   It was a nice, solid outside, super chewy inside.

01:51:29   God, the texture was so good.

01:51:30   But the plain bagels were just too salty.

01:51:33   I have another very brief thing I wanted to talk to you about.

01:51:35   And after this absolute badgering you're giving me, I don't know if I want to talk to you about

01:51:42   this anymore, but because we need a little bit more for an after show, I'm going to say

01:51:45   this.

01:51:47   I think to a degree, to a degree, John was right.

01:51:50   Let me explain.

01:51:52   A few days ago, maybe a week or two ago, Bullstrap reached out and said, hey, we heard you really

01:51:58   like our cases.

01:51:58   We'd love to send you one.

01:52:00   And I said, well, it wasn't me that you heard that liked your cases.

01:52:04   But hey, sure, if you want to send me a case, I'm not going to say no.

01:52:07   And they said, okay, we'll send you a case.

01:52:09   What would you like?

01:52:09   And I chose, forgive me, I don't have the model number or name in front of me or whatever,

01:52:14   but I chose their leather but bare bottom case, you know, the way that John likes it.

01:52:21   It's called the minimalist?

01:52:22   I think that's right.

01:52:24   I'll put the link in the show notes.

01:52:25   I don't have it handy while I'm speaking to you, but I think you're right.

01:52:28   And so I got it maybe a week ago and had it on for most of the last week.

01:52:33   I've since gone back to Caseless Casey List.

01:52:35   I was going to say, have you already broken your phone?

01:52:36   Well, I mean, no more than I did within the first 48 hours, as we already discussed when

01:52:42   I nicked it here and there.

01:52:44   Anyways, I personally do not believe that it is absolutely compulsory to have a bottomless

01:52:52   phone case.

01:52:52   I've had many, many complete bottom phone cases, and it's fine.

01:52:58   There's nothing wrong with it.

01:53:00   But the place where this gets unfortunate for your boy, Casey, is that I think the bottomless

01:53:06   is better.

01:53:07   Not compulsory, mind you, but I do think you're right, and I do think it's better.

01:53:11   Yep.

01:53:11   He unfortunately is right.

01:53:12   Yeah.

01:53:13   Once you get used to not banging your finger against the lip of the case, it just, to go

01:53:17   back seems barbaric.

01:53:18   I mean, but with you, I'd be worried about you like dropping it and somehow hitting that

01:53:22   bottom edge, which I've never done, but you might find a way.

01:53:24   I mean, you managed to shatter your car window with an iPad, so you're pretty amazing.

01:53:28   Yeah, that's talent right there.

01:53:29   Right?

01:53:30   Exactly.

01:53:30   But no, it is the, now that I've had a chance to look, it is the Ballstrap Minimalist case.

01:53:35   I don't think they've ever sponsored, and they certainly didn't ask for me to say anything,

01:53:40   but I thought it was funny to concede publicly that even though I maintain, like I just said

01:53:45   a moment ago, you do not need to have a bottomless case, and God knows I probably shouldn't, to

01:53:48   your point.

01:53:49   But it is a little bit better.

01:53:51   Beep, beep, beep.