The Accidental Tech Podcast

204: You’re Only Stable When You’re Dead


00:00:00   sorry for the fish so long and thanks [TS]

00:00:02   for all them i'm not i'm not really i'm [TS]

00:00:04   not sorry [TS]

00:00:04   that's a reference drum I actually I i [TS]

00:00:06   have not gotten a lot of headphone time [TS]

00:00:09   since their new year's show and I'm i [TS]

00:00:11   actually haven't even heard the whole [TS]

00:00:13   the whole new year's run yet once you [TS]

00:00:15   see the hotdog flying around the room [TS]

00:00:17   no spoilers that was a great year though [TS]

00:00:18   I should have said the hotdog bouncing [TS]

00:00:20   around the room that's a reference [TS]

00:00:23   marker [TS]

00:00:23   yeah I know my belt was too far away [TS]

00:00:25   also was a terrible reference a bunch of [TS]

00:00:29   people wrote in via Twitter and in the [TS]

00:00:32   email telling you you really should have [TS]

00:00:35   tried airdrop when you were at i think [TS]

00:00:38   was tips Paris and you were trying to [TS]

00:00:40   send files around now i will be the [TS]

00:00:42   first to tell you i have a comically bad [TS]

00:00:45   memory a woefully bad memory but I could [TS]

00:00:48   swear you said during the show that you [TS]

00:00:51   had done one of these transfers with [TS]

00:00:53   airdrop is that not the case for did you [TS]

00:00:54   cut it what happened [TS]

00:00:56   I i did these transfer fired however [TS]

00:00:58   there's a couple of limitations there [TS]

00:01:00   drop number one the ipad has to be there [TS]

00:01:03   in the first instance my father-in-law [TS]

00:01:05   two-handed me just the card reader with [TS]

00:01:08   an SD card in it so that was probably [TS]

00:01:10   number one selling the ipad was not [TS]

00:01:11   actually nearby [TS]

00:01:12   normally i am a big airdrop user i use [TS]

00:01:15   airdrop probably at least two or three [TS]

00:01:17   times a week usually to send files [TS]

00:01:20   either from my phone to my mac or like [TS]

00:01:22   24 between me and tiff like if one of us [TS]

00:01:24   was really cute video or photo and what [TS]

00:01:26   you wanted to be like in in are you know [TS]

00:01:28   in any other person's photo library will [TS]

00:01:30   play drop it over [TS]

00:01:31   they it usually does work very well [TS]

00:01:33   people who have airdrop troubles who [TS]

00:01:35   never works for at my biggest advice to [TS]

00:01:37   you is to switch it over to everyone [TS]

00:01:39   mode [TS]

00:01:40   I know it sounds crazy in reality at the [TS]

00:01:43   the risk from having an on everyone [TS]

00:01:46   receive mode seems fairly non-existent [TS]

00:01:50   unless you're like in a subway car [TS]

00:01:52   packed full every day and maybe people [TS]

00:01:54   might try to just do weird things to you [TS]

00:01:56   but you know i have never once had like [TS]

00:01:59   an unsolicited airdrop incoming thing [TS]

00:02:01   I've had my headset to everyone for a [TS]

00:02:02   very long time [TS]

00:02:03   so anyway when it's set to everyone it [TS]

00:02:06   works very reliably when it's set to [TS]

00:02:08   contact only it almost never works even [TS]

00:02:12   it you know whatever whatever [TS]

00:02:13   are using to match your contacts I guess [TS]

00:02:16   it doesn't work for me but and from what [TS]

00:02:18   I've heard about the people it seems [TS]

00:02:19   like it doesn't usually work for them [TS]

00:02:20   either but the everyone mode is very [TS]

00:02:23   reliable for me and works all the time I [TS]

00:02:25   use all the time and it's great i was [TS]

00:02:26   trying to do an airdrop to my own [TS]

00:02:28   computer with my own phone [TS]

00:02:30   oh yeah it doesn't even know even with [TS]

00:02:32   the mecard you know like the one that's [TS]

00:02:33   marked as like you which i assume is the [TS]

00:02:36   same on my phone and on my mac nothing [TS]

00:02:39   yeah but if you tell everyone it works [TS]

00:02:41   great and what what a lot of mine are [TS]

00:02:43   really about airdrop is the [TS]

00:02:45   implementation of it like therefore you [TS]

00:02:47   know a while back they were certain max [TS]

00:02:49   and things that couldn't do it like [TS]

00:02:50   certain old models and people thought [TS]

00:02:52   that was kind of BSE but there was [TS]

00:02:53   actually the reason for that basically [TS]

00:02:55   whatever drug does it uses either a [TS]

00:02:57   second radio or just like a second mode [TS]

00:02:59   of the Wi-Fi radio to basically create a [TS]

00:03:02   second like private Wi-Fi network [TS]

00:03:05   directly between the two devices so it [TS]

00:03:08   so even if the two devices that you're [TS]

00:03:10   sharing aren't even on Wi-Fi or one of [TS]

00:03:13   them's on a Wi-Fi network and other one [TS]

00:03:14   isn't there are different Wi-Fi networks [TS]

00:03:15   airdrop still works and that's pretty [TS]

00:03:18   cool and it just it saves a lot of [TS]

00:03:20   hassle so big fan of airdrop here keep [TS]

00:03:23   it on everyone mode if you want to work [TS]

00:03:25   it doesn't so if you see Marco WABC now [TS]

00:03:28   you all know what to do his phone is [TS]

00:03:30   totally open you can send him anything [TS]

00:03:31   but still prompts you to accept things [TS]

00:03:33   anyway so like there is a risk like it [TS]

00:03:35   will show you a preview of the picture [TS]

00:03:37   so if somebody wanted to like sounds [TS]

00:03:38   like a vulgar picture they you would see [TS]

00:03:40   the preview of it before kept saying [TS]

00:03:42   tonight so that I think would be the [TS]

00:03:43   risk but if it's so far that have to [TS]

00:03:46   happen to me i know i'm i'm inviting [TS]

00:03:47   horrible things but that just doesn't [TS]

00:03:49   happen in my everyday life so maybe [TS]

00:03:51   during a BC we got put on contacts [TS]

00:03:53   homely and just hope for the best [TS]

00:03:55   so I actually have a fun anecdote about [TS]

00:03:57   this this was a god maybe that though [TS]

00:04:00   this is maybe a year ago and I don't [TS]

00:04:02   think I ever told the story on the show [TS]

00:04:04   we were I believe returning home from [TS]

00:04:07   your house Marco I'm not a hundred [TS]

00:04:09   percent sure but we're certainly up in [TS]

00:04:10   the new york state of mind if you will [TS]

00:04:13   and we were in the Jersey Turnpike [TS]

00:04:14   really Declan it's a village also [TS]

00:04:17   noticing i just i still know that means [TS]

00:04:20   i just wanted to drop some sort of [TS]

00:04:21   reference John love me again [TS]

00:04:24   to lose ground easy it really is and so [TS]

00:04:27   are our way back to home and we stopped [TS]

00:04:30   at the Jersey Turnpike and we stopped [TS]

00:04:32   one of those like you know rest stops [TS]

00:04:35   that's on the turnpike and we went and [TS]

00:04:36   got a Roy Rogers burger maybe his burger [TS]

00:04:38   king whatever it was and then we're [TS]

00:04:41   sitting there and sarah and Declan me [TS]

00:04:42   and I meeting in somebody comes walking [TS]

00:04:45   up and I see this out of my periphery [TS]

00:04:47   and I'm and it looks like this person is [TS]

00:04:49   intent on talking to me which is fine [TS]

00:04:50   but surprising because nobody knows [TS]

00:04:53   where I am right now and it was a very [TS]

00:04:56   nice person I i don't recall his name [TS]

00:04:58   and I apologize if this very nice person [TS]

00:05:00   is listening I'm but they were very kind [TS]

00:05:02   and very nice and said oh my gosh I just [TS]

00:05:04   wanted to know are you Casey I just [TS]

00:05:06   wanted to introduce myself block and you [TS]

00:05:08   know i have to tell you a funny story I [TS]

00:05:10   didn't I i walked in and i was curious [TS]

00:05:13   if the place had any Wi-Fi and as i was [TS]

00:05:16   looking I noticed that there was [TS]

00:05:19   somebody broadcasting their iphones [TS]

00:05:22   Wi-Fi and it said casey Lissa's iphone [TS]

00:05:24   and I thought to myself oh my god [TS]

00:05:28   maybe he's here I should have a quick [TS]

00:05:30   look what happened was I was using my [TS]

00:05:33   iPad in the car and I personal data [TS]

00:05:36   tethering or personal hotspot whatever [TS]

00:05:37   it's called on and I just never bother [TS]

00:05:39   turning it off and so this this very [TS]

00:05:40   enterprising young man decided what [TS]

00:05:43   happened to see my my iphone in the list [TS]

00:05:45   and then looked around happened to spot [TS]

00:05:48   us and came up and said hi and he was [TS]

00:05:50   very very nice and very kind and it was [TS]

00:05:51   very funny but the goodness did it ever [TS]

00:05:54   take me by surprise that somebody had [TS]

00:05:56   like from across the room figured out [TS]

00:05:58   that i was there and came over with [TS]

00:06:00   intention to say hi it was startling in [TS]

00:06:03   the most flattering way possible and [TS]

00:06:05   quite funny so that's the be aware of [TS]

00:06:07   your personal personal hotspot and [TS]

00:06:10   airdrop I don't know aware of your [TS]

00:06:13   tendencies because it could catch in [TS]

00:06:14   trouble [TS]

00:06:15   well that was in trouble for me that you [TS]

00:06:16   read rename your phone to a VZW wireless [TS]

00:06:19   1567 it's gonna shame that that that you [TS]

00:06:24   can't edit the Wi-Fi network name like [TS]

00:06:26   the only thing you could do is like [TS]

00:06:27   rename your your device and then it will [TS]

00:06:29   it will take on that I guess that's true [TS]

00:06:31   because wouldn't it be amazing if like [TS]

00:06:33   our thing was to get thousands of people [TS]

00:06:36   to change their hot spot [TS]

00:06:37   name two cases iphone and like you just [TS]

00:06:41   like this ATP fan the room [TS]

00:06:43   that'd be awesome about it but you can't [TS]

00:06:44   you you can't do it on the phone without [TS]

00:06:46   changing your phone's name to kc Lissa's [TS]

00:06:48   iphone yeah so be aware of your why your [TS]

00:06:52   air drop in personal hotspot hygiene we [TS]

00:06:55   respond to this week by a new sponsor [TS]

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00:08:19   for 35 bucks off your first week visit [TS]

00:08:21   hellofresh com enter code ATP when you [TS]

00:08:23   subscribe thank you very much too hello [TS]

00:08:25   fresh for supporting our show [TS]

00:08:28   [Music] [TS]

00:08:30   so we got a series of tweets from adam [TS]

00:08:33   Russell and I thought these are really [TS]

00:08:35   interesting and i'll just read them as [TS]

00:08:37   one contiguous block the answer to the [TS]

00:08:39   mac product progress quandary from jon [TS]

00:08:42   is simple the mac is obviously not the [TS]

00:08:44   future but you are all legitimate Lee [TS]

00:08:46   frustrated because the mac is being [TS]

00:08:48   functionally deprecated faster than the [TS]

00:08:50   iphone and ipad are being empowered [TS]

00:08:51   continuing to argue beyond that right [TS]

00:08:54   now is pointless we just need to wait [TS]

00:08:57   and see what Apple's does next [TS]

00:08:59   I thought that was a very interesting [TS]

00:09:00   summary and in by and large I agree with [TS]

00:09:02   that I I don't know if the mac is dead [TS]

00:09:04   or not we don't need to across the [TS]

00:09:05   spreadsheet 95th time at least not yet [TS]

00:09:07   anyway but I i do agree that while [TS]

00:09:11   incredible strides are being made on [TS]

00:09:13   iphone and ipad in iOS in general i [TS]

00:09:16   guess i should say it seems like there's [TS]

00:09:20   there's more going missing from mac OS [TS]

00:09:24   or just feels that way maybe that's not [TS]

00:09:26   even true [TS]

00:09:26   you know maybe if we looked at the the [TS]

00:09:28   featureless maybe we were crazy but it [TS]

00:09:30   certainly feels that way and so I just [TS]

00:09:33   thought this was a really interesting [TS]

00:09:34   point any thoughts from you Marco [TS]

00:09:36   I mean what they just I don't want to [TS]

00:09:38   get too far in the weeds on this because [TS]

00:09:40   we you know we could talk forever about [TS]

00:09:41   this because we have and usually do what [TS]

00:09:44   i do i've had for a future episode that [TS]

00:09:45   we should do after we've had a little [TS]

00:09:46   more time to think about it is like what [TS]

00:09:49   big things are still possible to do and [TS]

00:09:53   left to do on the desktop that like [TS]

00:09:54   what-what big challenges aren't being [TS]

00:09:56   solved that like you know major major [TS]

00:09:59   new directions or advancements that [TS]

00:10:01   desktop OS is still could use and spend [TS]

00:10:03   in particular mac OS still could use and [TS]

00:10:06   like there's some low-hanging fruit here [TS]

00:10:07   like obviously like the one of them i [TS]

00:10:08   mentioned before was cellular max and [TS]

00:10:11   the reason why there's no cellular max [TS]

00:10:13   is probably because of the you know that [TS]

00:10:15   all the different software needs that [TS]

00:10:16   would need for that right now you can [TS]

00:10:18   use things like trip mode Dutch to kind [TS]

00:10:20   of take it [TS]

00:10:21   sorry trip MoDOT helvetica but it would [TS]

00:10:24   be so much better [TS]

00:10:25   there was os-level awareness of cellular [TS]

00:10:28   connections which by actually there is [TS]

00:10:30   but if more things actually used to [TS]

00:10:31   hitting in it with it with the switch to [TS]

00:10:33   nsurl session that actually was added in [TS]

00:10:36   the API but nothing uses it at least any [TS]

00:10:38   meaningful amount on OS 10 [TS]

00:10:40   excuse me on Mac OS X are Stephen and [TS]

00:10:44   and so like they're like they're like [TS]

00:10:46   yeah you know what cellular max would be [TS]

00:10:48   awesome but why why don't we have that [TS]

00:10:51   oh well take a lot of work in the US [TS]

00:10:52   there's a lot of answers like that where [TS]

00:10:54   the where the question is like why don't [TS]

00:10:55   we have that all it would take to work [TS]

00:10:56   on the u.s. wire mac app so much harder [TS]

00:10:58   to develop for iOS programmers and iOS [TS]

00:11:00   apps [TS]

00:11:01   well some of those reasons are good [TS]

00:11:02   reasons that will see the forever but [TS]

00:11:03   part of it is that application UI kit [TS]

00:11:05   are very different and in a lot of ways [TS]

00:11:08   that that is that they will need to be [TS]

00:11:09   different [TS]

00:11:10   some ways they need to be different but [TS]

00:11:11   a lot of ways they don't and they are [TS]

00:11:13   for like legacy reasons and and select [TS]

00:11:15   there's their major advancement could be [TS]

00:11:17   made in the frameworks we could talk [TS]

00:11:19   about things like the security model i [TS]

00:11:21   have of you know like what they tried to [TS]

00:11:22   do the sandboxing which has mostly [TS]

00:11:24   failed you mostly I think because not [TS]

00:11:29   enough apps could fit within what the [TS]

00:11:30   sandbox requirements were and they never [TS]

00:11:32   really added new sandbox capabilities [TS]

00:11:34   but I think with attention and [TS]

00:11:37   maintenance and adoration I think that [TS]

00:11:39   model actually could work i think the [TS]

00:11:41   assumption that like desktop os's are [TS]

00:11:43   you know quote the past or finished and [TS]

00:11:46   are you know functionally complete and [TS]

00:11:48   there's no more advancement we had I [TS]

00:11:49   think that's totally wrong and you can [TS]

00:11:51   look at Microsoft just to see like even [TS]

00:11:54   though Microsoft messes up a lot of [TS]

00:11:55   things they try a lot of things they [TS]

00:11:57   tried don't work out but a lot of things [TS]

00:11:59   they try are actually you could see like [TS]

00:12:01   wow you know what if Apple tried to do [TS]

00:12:03   something similar and did a better job [TS]

00:12:05   of it that could be really great and so [TS]

00:12:08   I it not to mention not even getting [TS]

00:12:09   into things like AR and VR which might [TS]

00:12:12   be really useful in a general-purpose [TS]

00:12:13   PCOS we don't know yet [TS]

00:12:16   so there are lots of areas where PCOS [TS]

00:12:21   development could go with effort so to [TS]

00:12:24   say that the mac OS is done or finished [TS]

00:12:27   or pcs are solved problem we can move on [TS]

00:12:30   is I think incredibly short-sighted i [TS]

00:12:33   was looking at these tweets and I think [TS]

00:12:35   I disagree with every single sentence in [TS]

00:12:37   it really matter that there is a three [TS]

00:12:39   weeks it mostly in like technical ways [TS]

00:12:41   like if you want to get picky the way [TS]

00:12:42   you you know but yeah I really talked [TS]

00:12:44   about a lot in the past shows but [TS]

00:12:46   everything I just start with the last [TS]

00:12:47   first lessons I want to go through a [TS]

00:12:49   blow [TS]

00:12:49   but you know the answer to the the mac [TS]

00:12:51   progress quandary you know it's simple i [TS]

00:12:54   don't first let me know what you want to [TS]

00:12:55   talk about second of all the answer is [TS]

00:12:56   never simple right and like the lesson [TS]

00:12:59   skipping over all the stuff the lessons [TS]

00:13:01   continuing to argue beyond read the [TS]

00:13:02   beyond that right now is pointless mom [TS]

00:13:04   obviously i disagree with that was [TS]

00:13:06   probably won't talk about it for hours [TS]

00:13:07   and hours every week so anyway I think [TS]

00:13:09   I've got all these these points but [TS]

00:13:11   guess that we iive guess I agree that we [TS]

00:13:14   are legitimately frustrated that's the [TS]

00:13:16   part I agree [TS]

00:13:17   Wow [TS]

00:13:20   well tough crowd I thought it was [TS]

00:13:22   interesting if nothing else [TS]

00:13:23   alright any other follow-up before we [TS]

00:13:25   talk about something that's awesome [TS]

00:13:27   I'm follow up on the macbook pro the [TS]

00:13:30   more years of the more like it [TS]

00:13:32   the port still drive me nuts but the [TS]

00:13:35   airport sir me nuts and and the keyboard [TS]

00:13:38   arrow key lack of gaps drive me nuts but [TS]

00:13:41   so far everything else about actually [TS]

00:13:44   enjoying I've been running some tests [TS]

00:13:46   and I'm I've been finding this might be [TS]

00:13:48   going to blog post some point I don't [TS]

00:13:49   know but I'm running on battery test [TS]

00:13:51   because consumer reports i figure if [TS]

00:13:54   their waiter test council you know maybe [TS]

00:13:55   I can make my own and and so I made my [TS]

00:13:58   own kind of similar one but it that [TS]

00:13:59   involves a little bit heavier workload [TS]

00:14:00   things like like like periodic xcode [TS]

00:14:04   compilations to you know periodically [TS]

00:14:06   pegged the cpu is for a few seconds and [TS]

00:14:08   then go back to normal and kind of [TS]

00:14:10   simulate what I do and what I'm finding [TS]

00:14:13   so far is that the new ones battery life [TS]

00:14:16   is really mediocre but so was the old [TS]

00:14:19   one like I wrote this post a couple [TS]

00:14:21   years ago about disabling turbo boost [TS]

00:14:24   and and the the effect that has on [TS]

00:14:26   battery life on the previous generation [TS]

00:14:28   macbook pro it had a pretty noticeable [TS]

00:14:32   effect added something like twenty [TS]

00:14:33   percent battery life roughly and a [TS]

00:14:35   pretty pretty big effect what I'm [TS]

00:14:37   finding with the new one is by disabled [TS]

00:14:40   interest it does work you can do it but [TS]

00:14:43   the savings are much smaller that there [TS]

00:14:44   is some serious we have but instead of [TS]

00:14:46   adding an hour it's a tad like 20 [TS]

00:14:48   minutes or a half hour or whatever it [TS]

00:14:50   and of course is about this depend on [TS]

00:14:51   what you do but this one finding is that [TS]

00:14:55   the new ones battery life while it does [TS]

00:14:58   suck i don't think it's actually worse [TS]

00:15:01   than the previous one I think it's [TS]

00:15:02   actually [TS]

00:15:03   very slightly better under load but very [TS]

00:15:06   slightly worse when used lightly so it [TS]

00:15:09   depends on what you're doing but for my [TS]

00:15:10   uses that the battery from the new one [TS]

00:15:13   is actually very slightly better if you [TS]

00:15:15   really baby it if you turn off turbo [TS]

00:15:17   boost if you turn off the GPU uses and [TS]

00:15:19   various things like you can get it to be [TS]

00:15:21   better [TS]

00:15:22   so anyway i'm kinda I'm kind of enjoying [TS]

00:15:24   the the new macbook pro and it does feel [TS]

00:15:28   awesome like when you have to move it [TS]

00:15:30   around and pick it up and stuff it is [TS]

00:15:31   noticeably better so kind of enjoying [TS]

00:15:33   that in the more you use it the more [TS]

00:15:34   like it and the more I realize like okay [TS]

00:15:37   intel really screwed them on on progress [TS]

00:15:40   here but this is not that bad and then [TS]

00:15:43   in some ways in many ways and possibly [TS]

00:15:45   even most ways it's better than the old [TS]

00:15:48   one still coming around on the keyboard [TS]

00:15:50   i still hate the key switches but the [TS]

00:15:52   but it but I still feel when i use the [TS]

00:15:55   old one that it's mushy and horrible so [TS]

00:15:58   it's again it's like I'm like I'm in [TS]

00:16:00   then I'm in the middle now like I I [TS]

00:16:01   think it's more of an issue of the of [TS]

00:16:04   the the reduced gaps between the keys [TS]

00:16:06   and of the arrow key layout then [TS]

00:16:08   necessarily the key travel and when I [TS]

00:16:12   tried it briefly in the store and I and [TS]

00:16:15   I can't emphasize enough was super [TS]

00:16:16   briefly I felt like it was eighty [TS]

00:16:19   percent of my freaking beloved magic [TS]

00:16:21   keyboard I I sure have talked about this [TS]

00:16:23   18 times on the show but I'll say it one [TS]

00:16:25   more time i love the magic keyboard it's [TS]

00:16:28   my favorite keyboard have ever used ever [TS]

00:16:29   i personally am NOT a mechanical [TS]

00:16:31   keyboard kind of guy [TS]

00:16:32   maybe you are that's fine it's not my [TS]

00:16:35   cup of tea [TS]

00:16:36   I love the match keyboard and I felt [TS]

00:16:38   like the the new macbook pro keyboard [TS]

00:16:40   got me really close but I wanted just a [TS]

00:16:44   little bit more travel on the keys and [TS]

00:16:46   then it would have been like just [TS]

00:16:48   perfect so I i I'm a little surprised if [TS]

00:16:52   you say that that the key travel doesn't [TS]

00:16:54   really bother you [TS]

00:16:55   it's not good but it is no longer the [TS]

00:16:58   thing about the keyboard that bothers me [TS]

00:17:00   like the the change in layout you know [TS]

00:17:03   eat certain things are just things you [TS]

00:17:05   get used to [TS]

00:17:05   yeah but certain things are actually [TS]

00:17:08   just like worse over time and I think [TS]

00:17:10   one of the things that really negatively [TS]

00:17:13   affects me about this keyboard that one [TS]

00:17:15   of the problems keeping [TS]

00:17:16   thing is just the lack of of like dead [TS]

00:17:19   space around the keys to feel as I as [TS]

00:17:22   i'm figuring out by using it turns out I [TS]

00:17:25   did that a lot like feel around the dead [TS]

00:17:26   space around the keys to kind of orient [TS]

00:17:28   myself physically without looking and [TS]

00:17:29   especially around the arrow keys so to [TS]

00:17:31   not have to have now the like shrunk [TS]

00:17:34   down little little tiny margin between [TS]

00:17:36   the keys now the keys are now much [TS]

00:17:38   bigger flattered and the end because the [TS]

00:17:41   reduce travel like the edges are [TS]

00:17:43   actually less less noticeable by feel [TS]

00:17:45   and everything else too so it's a [TS]

00:17:47   hardware keyboard to type on blindly for [TS]

00:17:50   me like i have to lie I make a lot more [TS]

00:17:53   mistakes but even even now that i'm like [TS]

00:17:54   more custom to the feel of it i'm making [TS]

00:17:57   a lot more mistakes with that involve my [TS]

00:18:00   hands not being oriented correctly on [TS]

00:18:01   the keys where I thought they were so I [TS]

00:18:03   that part i still don't love I still [TS]

00:18:06   think this is a bad keyboard but it's [TS]

00:18:09   only because the bar is pretty high [TS]

00:18:11   because for a long time Apple has made [TS]

00:18:13   laptop keyboards that I would never [TS]

00:18:15   describe them as great because they [TS]

00:18:17   still had laptops in Turkey switches [TS]

00:18:19   which are always a compromise right but [TS]

00:18:20   overall apples laptop keyboards i have [TS]

00:18:23   never get I haven't given them any [TS]

00:18:25   thought whatsoever ever until the [TS]

00:18:29   macbook one came out and now now that [TS]

00:18:30   keyboards on there are close enough to [TS]

00:18:32   that keyboard is on all the new ones all [TS]

00:18:34   previous Apple laptops have had before [TS]

00:18:36   this and I've had one of every [TS]

00:18:38   generation since the powerbook g3 [TS]

00:18:39   aluminum sorry for aluminum sorry [TS]

00:18:42   Stephen again even having a problem that [TS]

00:18:44   I bet with me but anyway yes since the [TS]

00:18:47   g4 aluminum powerbook that every [TS]

00:18:48   keyboard since then I've had no problems [TS]

00:18:50   with and I've enjoyed using it's been [TS]

00:18:52   great and fine and this is this this is [TS]

00:18:54   the very first time where they've made [TS]

00:18:55   like a to me a very controversial [TS]

00:18:58   keyboard and so anyway all that is to [TS]

00:19:02   say overall like it the new giant [TS]

00:19:05   trackpad I really do love i love that [TS]

00:19:07   since the beginning i have not had the [TS]

00:19:09   issues that people have had with with [TS]

00:19:11   the accidental input with your wrist [TS]

00:19:12   resting on it otherwise yeah overall [TS]

00:19:14   good computer the SSD speed increases [TS]

00:19:16   very very nice the GPU speed increase [TS]

00:19:18   might be affecting me I don't even know [TS]

00:19:20   probably not but anyway overall good [TS]

00:19:22   computer i wish the battery last longer [TS]

00:19:25   in heavy use but it turns out it [TS]

00:19:27   actually is no worse than the last one [TS]

00:19:28   heavy use [TS]

00:19:29   did you say you love the trackpad yeah I [TS]

00:19:32   do well since I so I love the the [TS]

00:19:35   largeness of it I do not love for stocks [TS]

00:19:38   I Air Force click whatever the whatever [TS]

00:19:39   the calling that feature on yeah that's [TS]

00:19:42   what you did to me you just mean [TS]

00:19:43   clicking like clicking in general we're [TS]

00:19:45   talking about you're not talking about [TS]

00:19:46   force like when you press really hard [TS]

00:19:49   like you know what you are what you are [TS]

00:19:50   by clicking because your complaint has [TS]

00:19:52   been like I don't like the the trackpad [TS]

00:19:54   that don't actually move in you got you [TS]

00:19:56   skip and done two shows you've been [TS]

00:19:58   reading about this is this entirely [TS]

00:19:59   because you're in tap to click was in [TS]

00:20:01   school with Harry yes if I actually have [TS]

00:20:03   to invoke a real like a real like normal [TS]

00:20:07   click by pushing you know forcefully or [TS]

00:20:09   by pushing someone hard and trackpad I [TS]

00:20:11   hate those clicks they're terrible and [TS]

00:20:12   the fact that everyone thinks they're [TS]

00:20:13   just as good or ok baffles me I have no [TS]

00:20:16   idea why anybody would think that's a [TS]

00:20:17   good click but I switched at a Catholic [TS]

00:20:19   mode and it's fine [TS]

00:20:20   any other follow it but i guess the I [TS]

00:20:23   keep the relevant if you want your [TS]

00:20:26   sponsor this week by Squarespace make [TS]

00:20:29   your next move [TS]

00:20:30   make your next website and make that [TS]

00:20:32   move on Squarespace Squarespace is the [TS]

00:20:36   best website builder i have ever seen in [TS]

00:20:38   the entire internet for all time it is [TS]

00:20:41   so ridiculously powerful yet also so [TS]

00:20:44   incredibly easy to use and it scales [TS]

00:20:47   well from novices who don't want to put [TS]

00:20:49   a time into it or you don't have the [TS]

00:20:51   skills to code their way through the [TS]

00:20:54   customizations all the way up to nerds [TS]

00:20:57   like me who can code if we want to but [TS]

00:21:00   either you but usually don't don't have [TS]

00:21:01   the time to or we probably shouldn't be [TS]

00:21:03   spending our time doing that but you [TS]

00:21:06   know [TS]

00:21:06   Squarespace can accommodate all these [TS]

00:21:07   needs from their simple [TS]

00:21:09   what-you-see-is-what-you-get and [TS]

00:21:10   drag-and-drop tools to customize the [TS]

00:21:12   templates and create content all the way [TS]

00:21:14   down to if you want to be a geek like me [TS]

00:21:16   you could inject code you can inject [TS]

00:21:17   JavaScript and CSS directly into your [TS]

00:21:19   template you have a ridiculous level of [TS]

00:21:21   control with squarespace these tools are [TS]

00:21:24   amazing they host your site for you [TS]

00:21:26   they support your site for you if you're [TS]

00:21:28   making aside for somebody else you don't [TS]

00:21:30   want to support you want square speak to [TS]

00:21:32   support it and you don't want the other [TS]

00:21:34   person making the site for calling you [TS]

00:21:35   for help [TS]

00:21:36   Squarespace does that they take care of [TS]

00:21:38   that so if you're making website for [TS]

00:21:39   yourself or for somebody else you need [TS]

00:21:42   to check out Squarespace [TS]

00:21:43   it is by far the best solution i've ever [TS]

00:21:45   seen for doing this and it covers so [TS]

00:21:48   many needs that chances are whatever you [TS]

00:21:50   need to do [TS]

00:21:50   Squarespace can already do it with no [TS]

00:21:52   hacks and not a lot of effort at all [TS]

00:21:54   check it out today when you want to make [TS]

00:21:56   your next move for the new year make [TS]

00:21:58   your new site try new things start a new [TS]

00:22:00   business make your next move with [TS]

00:22:02   squarespace at squarespace.com make sure [TS]

00:22:05   to use offer code ATP to get ten percent [TS]

00:22:07   off your first purchase once again [TS]

00:22:09   squarespace.com code ATP for ten percent [TS]

00:22:11   off your first purchase make your next [TS]

00:22:13   move with squarespace ah apparently [TS]

00:22:18   consumer reports went into a safari [TS]

00:22:23   debug area and said hey guess what [TS]

00:22:25   uh we are going to turn off the cash [TS]

00:22:28   which ok i guess that kind of makes [TS]

00:22:30   sense because you want to make sure that [TS]

00:22:32   it's not just cruising along and and [TS]

00:22:35   just regurgitating the same stuff it has [TS]

00:22:38   over and over and over again [TS]

00:22:39   okay fine but nevertheless it's still [TS]

00:22:43   not a completely fair test and so they [TS]

00:22:46   spoke with apple and apples like well [TS]

00:22:48   you guys probably should have done this [TS]

00:22:49   most users won't have done that maybe [TS]

00:22:51   some developers do i can't say that i [TS]

00:22:53   usually do but also on top of that there [TS]

00:22:57   was some sort of issue that I've heard [TS]

00:22:59   was related to favicon fav icon whatever [TS]

00:23:02   they're called but I don't know if that [TS]

00:23:03   was ever confirmed or not and so there [TS]

00:23:06   was a legitimate bug here in addition to [TS]

00:23:08   them just meddling about so I don't [TS]

00:23:11   think they're really meddling because [TS]

00:23:13   the whole point of battery test is to [TS]

00:23:15   simulate real user activity that we [TS]

00:23:16   should put a link in the show notes for [TS]

00:23:18   Jason Stiles article he went over all [TS]

00:23:20   the stuff and having done some battery [TS]

00:23:21   testing myself I can relate to this [TS]

00:23:24   you can't actually human beings do your [TS]

00:23:27   testing because it to variable but to [TS]

00:23:30   try to simulate human activity is [TS]

00:23:32   actually very difficult these humans are [TS]

00:23:34   inscrutable but you needed to be exactly [TS]

00:23:36   the same every single time and you also [TS]

00:23:39   want to be comfortable from year to year [TS]

00:23:41   model to model and what they're doing [TS]

00:23:44   with the caches I mean it could be [TS]

00:23:47   argued that they should get thousands [TS]

00:23:49   upon thousands of unique web sites that [TS]

00:23:51   need to load but then you have to worry [TS]

00:23:52   about the variability of those websites [TS]

00:23:53   being up and then changing and so on and [TS]

00:23:55   so forth so instead they have [TS]

00:23:56   probably a small set of URLs a cycle [TS]

00:23:58   through and they wanted to load from the [TS]

00:24:00   network each time they don't want it to [TS]

00:24:02   be a test of how well it can read from [TS]

00:24:04   the cash right so they want to exercise [TS]

00:24:06   the Wi-Fi and all the other things like [TS]

00:24:07   in the end it's all a vague [TS]

00:24:09   approximation of what an actual person [TS]

00:24:11   might do with the computer and it's [TS]

00:24:14   probably not particularly scientific in [TS]

00:24:15   terms of like we let it but you know a [TS]

00:24:17   hundred users using a computer and put [TS]

00:24:18   metrics on every single input and output [TS]

00:24:20   and said how many bytes over Wi-Fi on [TS]

00:24:22   what intervals with what burst and what [TS]

00:24:24   seems like they don't do that and then [TS]

00:24:25   try to find artificial workload that [TS]

00:24:26   exactly matches it maybe Apple does that [TS]

00:24:28   but Consumer Reports doesn't like it's [TS]

00:24:30   all kind of guesswork but in the end it [TS]

00:24:32   doesn't really matter because I think [TS]

00:24:34   like Marco said in his thing like the [TS]

00:24:36   numbers they give you for like X amount [TS]

00:24:37   of hours that only applies to their [TS]

00:24:39   tests and even if it was done by a human [TS]

00:24:41   you're not that human you might do [TS]

00:24:42   different things with your computer all [TS]

00:24:43   you're looking for is is it better or [TS]

00:24:46   worse than the last laptop is it you [TS]

00:24:48   know you're looking four big swings like [TS]

00:24:50   we have it a light web browsing test and [TS]

00:24:53   like an intensive test and what is the [TS]

00:24:55   difference between them and is the light [TS]

00:24:57   test like two hours less time than last [TS]

00:24:59   year or more time with you know it's all [TS]

00:25:02   to do so i'm disabling the cash to say [TS]

00:25:05   we really want to test fetching this [TS]

00:25:08   information over the network every [TS]

00:25:09   single time so don't even bother looking [TS]

00:25:11   your disk cache I think it's a perfectly [TS]

00:25:14   valid thing to do and furthermore that [TS]

00:25:16   wouldn't explain their widely variable [TS]

00:25:19   results written like from 19 hours to [TS]

00:25:21   like three hours or something [TS]

00:25:22   disable the cash that except as the [TS]

00:25:26   story goes that disabling the cash also [TS]

00:25:29   triggered some other weird sorry bug [TS]

00:25:31   that I haven't seen a technical [TS]

00:25:32   explanation for but anyway I Apple [TS]

00:25:35   identify this bug they're going to fix [TS]

00:25:37   the bug report says I think they have a [TS]

00:25:39   beta build that fixes the bug and lo and [TS]

00:25:41   behold they get same testing results [TS]

00:25:43   marco was cranky about this he wrote a [TS]

00:25:45   blog post saying how the real story is [TS]

00:25:48   that this was an apple bug but apple's [TS]

00:25:50   press release about it tries to deflect [TS]

00:25:52   blame insights it Consumer Reports doing [TS]

00:25:53   a weird thing and Consumer Reports was [TS]

00:25:56   only doing a weird thing and so far as [TS]

00:25:58   artificial battery testing is a weird [TS]

00:25:59   thing I think everything is very force [TS]

00:26:01   was doing was reasonable what pretty if [TS]

00:26:03   you want to yell consumer reports about [TS]

00:26:04   something would be like it's pretty [TS]

00:26:07   clear some reports that you've [TS]

00:26:08   identified above [TS]

00:26:09   like you are not privy to some secret [TS]

00:26:12   information and no other person was this [TS]

00:26:14   laptop has figured out like everyone [TS]

00:26:16   else is getting anywhere from 19 23 [TS]

00:26:18   hours but they're not say anything but [TS]

00:26:19   you can some reports that I've revealed [TS]

00:26:21   this amazing secret so go ahead and [TS]

00:26:23   publish your story and say we can't [TS]

00:26:25   recommend these laptops because we're [TS]

00:26:26   getting crazy results out of the out of [TS]

00:26:28   our battery test that's a sign consumer [TS]

00:26:30   reports it's not time for you to publish [TS]

00:26:32   yet it's not you to figure out what the [TS]

00:26:33   hell's going on because if the entire [TS]

00:26:35   world was getting three hours to 19 [TS]

00:26:36   hours you would have heard about it so [TS]

00:26:38   that's why would you consider reports [TS]

00:26:40   about but instead Apple was like oh [TS]

00:26:41   they're using a special developer [TS]

00:26:43   setting the most people don't use is not [TS]

00:26:44   reflective a real-world use well no crap [TS]

00:26:47   is not reflected real reviews they have [TS]

00:26:48   to make an artificial benchmarked and [TS]

00:26:50   it's probably the same thing they've [TS]

00:26:51   been doing to mac laptops for years [TS]

00:26:52   anyway I'm going to work that out but [TS]

00:26:56   apple market in like their tone i [TS]

00:26:58   generally didn't like the the idea that [TS]

00:27:01   consumer reports doing something wrong [TS]

00:27:03   with their testing but I also didn't [TS]

00:27:04   like the idea of consumer board decided [TS]

00:27:06   to go ahead and publish before that [TS]

00:27:07   actually figured out what the hell was [TS]

00:27:08   going on even though they were pretty [TS]

00:27:09   close to figuring out like they waited [TS]

00:27:11   an extra week anyway there's enough [TS]

00:27:13   blame to go around here but the bottom [TS]

00:27:15   line is that the laptop's battery life [TS]

00:27:17   is pretty much what everyone has been [TS]

00:27:19   saying about it which is not fantastic [TS]

00:27:21   better than the previous ones worse in [TS]

00:27:23   some situations potentially better than [TS]

00:27:24   others if you learn how to do all the [TS]

00:27:26   magic things and marcos doing to it but [TS]

00:27:28   certainly not all you're going to three [TS]

00:27:30   hours now whereas be or possibly 19 it's [TS]

00:27:33   not that variable that that was a that [TS]

00:27:35   was a bug [TS]

00:27:36   well but again like i have seen the like [TS]

00:27:38   in in light usage so far from what i can [TS]

00:27:41   tell it actually is a step back for a [TS]

00:27:44   lot of depend on what your usage is what [TS]

00:27:46   it includes what apps you're using you [TS]

00:27:48   know what their needs are [TS]

00:27:49   I I think Consumer Reports was right to [TS]

00:27:52   point out the battery life on this [TS]

00:27:54   laptop is weird because it is like and [TS]

00:27:57   that's what you see that from users from [TS]

00:27:59   actual owners of it you're seeing like [TS]

00:28:01   yet the battery life on this life is [TS]

00:28:03   weird because what we're seeing is [TS]

00:28:05   everything is so incredibly aggressively [TS]

00:28:08   power managed to the last drop [TS]

00:28:11   if any factor takes more power than it [TS]

00:28:14   should have been you think it is or if [TS]

00:28:16   you have anything running away in the [TS]

00:28:17   background or turning on the discrete [TS]

00:28:19   GPU or burning cpu core for a while [TS]

00:28:22   if anything is not perfect your battery [TS]

00:28:26   life can be dramatically reduced like by [TS]

00:28:28   on the order of hours less than what you [TS]

00:28:31   thought of what you usually get that is [TS]

00:28:33   a real problem and you know in consumer [TS]

00:28:36   reports case it was because of seemingly [TS]

00:28:39   the Safari bug which you know you can [TS]

00:28:41   figure out like you know if it's if it's [TS]

00:28:42   a bug that only shows up when the cash [TS]

00:28:44   is disabled and it seems apparently by [TS]

00:28:46   some other statements related to so far [TS]

00:28:48   as caching of of icons and that makes a [TS]

00:28:50   lot of sense it's almost certainly like [TS]

00:28:51   the Apple touch icon or fabric on [TS]

00:28:53   infinite loop of fetching those things [TS]

00:28:55   because I think that doesn't have them [TS]

00:28:56   because they aren't in the cache music a [TS]

00:28:58   disabled so it's like it's probably that [TS]

00:29:00   you can you can any web programmer can [TS]

00:29:02   figure out okay that's probably what the [TS]

00:29:03   bug or the bug is probably in that area [TS]

00:29:05   but it doesn't really matter if that's [TS]

00:29:07   what it was [TS]

00:29:08   why would like I don't think what [TS]

00:29:09   consumers particularly revealing is what [TS]

00:29:11   you're talking about the variability [TS]

00:29:12   between you know idle and regular power [TS]

00:29:14   because as far as i understand from [TS]

00:29:16   reading the consumer reports thing they [TS]

00:29:18   were running the same battery test and [TS]

00:29:22   from one execution of that same test to [TS]

00:29:24   the next getting one time they get three [TS]

00:29:27   and a half hours one time they get 19 [TS]

00:29:29   the same test not people like users like [TS]

00:29:31   one day using Xcode the other day you're [TS]

00:29:32   browsing the web of course your your [TS]

00:29:34   results are going to vary and [TS]

00:29:35   potentially they could vary as much as [TS]

00:29:36   you said like if you spend the entire [TS]

00:29:38   time you know playing a game or doing [TS]

00:29:40   renders in a you know multi-core like [TS]

00:29:43   ray tracing program like you could get [TS]

00:29:44   three hours and you could get 19 just [TS]

00:29:47   text editing with everything turned off [TS]

00:29:48   right but Consumer Reports like we're [TS]

00:29:49   running the same battery test and we're [TS]

00:29:51   getting these widely variable results [TS]

00:29:52   and that I think is not eliminating in [TS]

00:29:55   the way that you are describing like it [TS]

00:29:57   to to inform consumers that the you know [TS]

00:30:00   that depending on your activity the [TS]

00:30:02   battery life can be variable it's almost [TS]

00:30:03   like they were saying the thing is [TS]

00:30:04   broken and unpredictable but if you buy [TS]

00:30:06   this laptop you never know what you're [TS]

00:30:07   gonna get [TS]

00:30:08   which is not the case but that's true no [TS]

00:30:10   that's actually like that's a real thing [TS]

00:30:11   and in this in this case like you know [TS]

00:30:14   it would this be the first time an apple [TS]

00:30:16   bug caused a process to go a little bit [TS]

00:30:18   crazy [TS]

00:30:19   no I don't know about it but it's a [TS]

00:30:22   related to a bug i mean that's true of [TS]

00:30:23   any laptop you have any laptop that has [TS]

00:30:25   some process grinding through an [TS]

00:30:26   infinite loop in the background [TS]

00:30:27   transparent about little slaughter your [TS]

00:30:29   battery life I mean like maybe they made [TS]

00:30:30   the fans too quiet so you don't have any [TS]

00:30:31   external indication remember when you [TS]

00:30:34   I used to listen to your computer to [TS]

00:30:35   tell how they were doing it here the [TS]

00:30:37   floppy drive going to know what's going [TS]

00:30:38   on later you hear the hard drive going [TS]

00:30:40   to be able to figure out is the thing in [TS]

00:30:43   the loop is it frozen it sounds like you [TS]

00:30:45   need more ram is it swapping is [TS]

00:30:47   something going wrong [TS]

00:30:48   we've got we're looking at dr lights [TS]

00:30:50   blinking and stuff of that we slowly [TS]

00:30:51   lost most of these physical [TS]

00:30:52   manifestations of the composite the [TS]

00:30:54   computer all we have left is that is [TS]

00:30:56   left on laptops and in particular on the [TS]

00:30:59   Apple I'm that terrible fan noise and [TS]

00:31:00   now even that is tamp down or do you [TS]

00:31:02   feel like when your phone gets hot [TS]

00:31:04   likewise my phone so high i don't think [TS]

00:31:05   i'm doing again or our laptops get hot [TS]

00:31:07   for that really you know but anyway I'd [TS]

00:31:10   like and it is true the performance is [TS]

00:31:12   variable but their battery test giving [TS]

00:31:14   these results in the same we just can't [TS]

00:31:15   recommend this because we just we can't [TS]

00:31:17   get a bead on the battery life that that [TS]

00:31:18   was not that was not a useful or [TS]

00:31:20   accurate statement where they should [TS]

00:31:21   have said is we think reveal the bug and [TS]

00:31:24   then you could have spun out into a [TS]

00:31:25   larger story about variability between [TS]

00:31:26   idol and whatever power and demonstrated [TS]

00:31:29   that by saying here we played some game [TS]

00:31:31   for this amount of time look what it did [TS]

00:31:32   to the battery life in here we just tool [TS]

00:31:34   around text editor like i don't i'm not [TS]

00:31:36   a fan [TS]

00:31:37   I'm for example i'm not a fan of [TS]

00:31:39   consumer reports who used cars because i [TS]

00:31:40   think they don't understand what makes a [TS]

00:31:42   good car and in general I haven't been a [TS]

00:31:44   fan of consumer reports reviews of [TS]

00:31:45   computers because they're especially [TS]

00:31:47   when it comes to apple they're prone to [TS]

00:31:49   go to press with something that sounds [TS]

00:31:53   sensational rather than working on until [TS]

00:31:55   we figure out what the hell's going on [TS]

00:31:56   because figure out what the hell's going [TS]

00:31:57   on [TS]

00:31:58   you still have a story there that you [TS]

00:31:59   can explain but it's like going to press [TS]

00:32:03   and saying we can't recommend these [TS]

00:32:04   laptops that is you know from coming [TS]

00:32:06   from us to show that has complained [TS]

00:32:08   about these laptops a lot that is too [TS]

00:32:10   far [TS]

00:32:10   it's not as if this is a broken product [TS]

00:32:12   that no one should buy like maybe [TS]

00:32:13   doesn't suit your needs or whatever them [TS]

00:32:15   to say we just can't recommend this [TS]

00:32:16   laptop that's that's not responsible [TS]

00:32:19   thing to publish given the fact that we [TS]

00:32:21   know so far [TS]

00:32:22   well and to be fair though they actually [TS]

00:32:24   did contact apple beforehand Apple even [TS]

00:32:26   some kind of like you know canned [TS]

00:32:27   response but it sounded like basically [TS]

00:32:29   it's just like you know basically a non [TS]

00:32:31   response from PR so they did first [TS]

00:32:35   contact apple to ask about this i know [TS]

00:32:38   about that that's still still on them to [TS]

00:32:40   figure out what's going to make a to [TS]

00:32:42   make the recommendation that's their job [TS]

00:32:43   as a publication and like to backslide [TS]

00:32:45   three days later when Apple [TS]

00:32:47   works them some more and find out the [TS]

00:32:48   bugs like well I don't I has been [TS]

00:32:51   playing a chat room like it can you [TS]

00:32:52   imagine a non-tech going through the [TS]

00:32:55   same thing and publishing thats it that [TS]

00:32:56   they figure out what was going on that's [TS]

00:32:58   why there are more trusted source for [TS]

00:32:59   how good computers are probably yes but [TS]

00:33:03   I have a hard time looking at this I [TS]

00:33:05   mean look consumer reports we we all [TS]

00:33:08   know that they're not perfect and that [TS]

00:33:09   they are prone to like click baby [TS]

00:33:11   headline sensationalism [TS]

00:33:12   however what they saw was a real problem [TS]

00:33:16   and it was not their problem and they [TS]

00:33:19   asked Apple about Apple here the [TS]

00:33:20   non-response so what we're supposed to [TS]

00:33:23   do these days sometimes it takes a [TS]

00:33:25   little bit of of pushing for apple from [TS]

00:33:27   the outside to get things fixed i think [TS]

00:33:29   it's on them though to realize that like [TS]

00:33:32   if they haven't heard this from anyone [TS]

00:33:33   else maybe it has something to do with [TS]

00:33:34   the fact that they are that they're [TS]

00:33:36   testing and under conditions that you [TS]

00:33:38   have to test under the testing our [TS]

00:33:39   official test edition which I said [TS]

00:33:41   aren't bad but they have to realize that [TS]

00:33:43   maybe what we're encountering because we [TS]

00:33:46   haven't heard anyone else have this [TS]

00:33:47   problem is because of something that we [TS]

00:33:49   have that we have to do is part of our [TS]

00:33:50   uniform testing procedure right for [TS]

00:33:52   example the way you can figure this out [TS]

00:33:54   is take your laptop that you're [TS]

00:33:55   supposedly testing and give it to one of [TS]

00:33:57   your staffers and have them take it home [TS]

00:33:59   with them at night and use it as their [TS]

00:34:00   regular work laptop and say when you use [TS]

00:34:02   it like a normal person does seem okay [TS]

00:34:04   to you that's a non-scientific test but [TS]

00:34:05   it can definitely tell you whether like [TS]

00:34:07   I you yesterday and I got this battery [TS]

00:34:10   life and use the next day to pretty much [TS]

00:34:11   the same stuff and got like 18 of that [TS]

00:34:13   and if they say no or it it's much more [TS]

00:34:16   consistent user like that will like make [TS]

00:34:17   an era Dawn's us maybe it's because [TS]

00:34:19   we're disabled in cash now greater [TS]

00:34:21   that's that's a little bit of debugging [TS]

00:34:22   there to understand that maybe you know [TS]

00:34:23   what are you doing to cause this problem [TS]

00:34:24   and removing variables and stuff like [TS]

00:34:27   that but if you're gonna come out as a [TS]

00:34:29   publication say we just can't recommend [TS]

00:34:31   that you know like they're like can't [TS]

00:34:33   recommend this laptop like you should [TS]

00:34:34   not buy this product that is going too [TS]

00:34:37   far for something that you know consumer [TS]

00:34:40   reports would agree if they guess it [TS]

00:34:41   does not manifest normal usage in the [TS]

00:34:43   way they saw that if you do pretty much [TS]

00:34:45   the same thing with it that you get when [TS]

00:34:47   you get that much variability in very [TS]

00:34:49   life because again if that was true [TS]

00:34:51   every single the publication review [TS]

00:34:53   these laptops would say i do pretty much [TS]

00:34:56   the same thing and sometimes I get you [TS]

00:34:58   know 6x the battery life [TS]

00:35:00   that I do other times and I can't figure [TS]

00:35:02   out why I i partly agree with you i [TS]

00:35:05   agree with some of the things you're [TS]

00:35:06   saying but basically I didn't think [TS]

00:35:08   we're having is like whether Consumer [TS]

00:35:10   Reports was reasonable to say what they [TS]

00:35:12   said when they should have done more [TS]

00:35:14   more work and testing or investigation [TS]

00:35:16   whatever and I think I don't think they [TS]

00:35:19   were perfect about it but I think that [TS]

00:35:21   given what they were seeing I think they [TS]

00:35:24   were mostly reasonable to say what they [TS]

00:35:26   said at that time and now they have new [TS]

00:35:28   information they said they are going to [TS]

00:35:30   retest it and that's great because you [TS]

00:35:31   know it would be one thing like if you [TS]

00:35:33   know if Apple eventually went to them [TS]

00:35:35   and figure this out and report said well [TS]

00:35:37   know our test is done sorry too late to [TS]

00:35:39   try again in 18 months when you release [TS]

00:35:41   a new one [TS]

00:35:41   you know that would be kind of a bad [TS]

00:35:43   move on their part but like in this [TS]

00:35:45   situation they were in with the very [TS]

00:35:47   little information they had and with a [TS]

00:35:49   non response from Apple when they asked [TS]

00:35:50   him about it i don't think it was that a [TS]

00:35:52   reasonable to publish what they did when [TS]

00:35:54   they did I would again I would make a [TS]

00:35:55   few edits but for the most part i think [TS]

00:35:57   it was in the ballpark now they have new [TS]

00:35:59   information now they're retesting i [TS]

00:36:01   think that is very reasonable [TS]

00:36:02   I end and I think you know the the [TS]

00:36:04   problem i had about this was you know [TS]

00:36:07   basically apples PR framing weight of [TS]

00:36:09   their official statement it really like [TS]

00:36:10   who at Apple's tone is really bitter [TS]

00:36:15   almost recently like the statement about [TS]

00:36:17   about about the dash developer Don [TS]

00:36:20   professor sorry if I mispronounced that [TS]

00:36:22   I their statement about that situation [TS]

00:36:24   was also really a little bit defensive [TS]

00:36:28   and weird and as more fact came out from [TS]

00:36:31   from both sides i think it became a [TS]

00:36:34   little bit clearer like that Satan was a [TS]

00:36:35   little bit too aggressive and bitter and [TS]

00:36:37   a little unnecessarily so there's [TS]

00:36:39   something up like one Apple gives a [TS]

00:36:41   defensive statement like that I I think [TS]

00:36:44   you can use some little more editing [TS]

00:36:45   them when it's getting before it comes [TS]

00:36:47   out because it's like if you want to [TS]

00:36:49   like write a nasty email like wait till [TS]

00:36:50   next morning to send it like I think [TS]

00:36:52   happens to do it all with with its a [TS]

00:36:54   defensive PR statement here because they [TS]

00:36:57   come out with this with this very overly [TS]

00:36:59   defensive attitude that's that's [TS]

00:37:01   honestly slightly BSE in in certain ways [TS]

00:37:04   i think they kind of BS around certain [TS]

00:37:05   certain facts of of the of the matter [TS]

00:37:07   whatever and it does not reflect well on [TS]

00:37:11   them you know they're usually a [TS]

00:37:13   the a trustworthy straightforward [TS]

00:37:15   company with clear communication and so [TS]

00:37:17   to to have these little defensive PR [TS]

00:37:20   statements where that's not the case is [TS]

00:37:24   just off putting a little bit concerning [TS]

00:37:26   for a company that we respect so much [TS]

00:37:27   agree that they are statements bad but i [TS]

00:37:30   still think it's a report what they [TS]

00:37:31   should have published was we're not we [TS]

00:37:33   can't tell what's going on because i was [TS]

00:37:34   the truth they did not know what was [TS]

00:37:36   going on and they should they should [TS]

00:37:38   have said is when normal people use this [TS]

00:37:41   we don't see this kind of variability [TS]

00:37:42   but in our battery test we get this [TS]

00:37:44   variability we can't explain that if [TS]

00:37:46   they want to say therefore we can't [TS]

00:37:48   recommend this [TS]

00:37:49   that's a matter of semantics like I [TS]

00:37:51   guess they can't recommend it [TS]

00:37:52   technically because if they don't get [TS]

00:37:53   results on their artificial test that's [TS]

00:37:55   their criteria recommendation that we [TS]

00:37:57   can't recommend it but the way was [TS]

00:37:59   written up it was almost there are [TS]

00:38:00   recommending against it seemed [TS]

00:38:02   conclusive there wasn't much of saying [TS]

00:38:04   look we were stumped [TS]

00:38:06   we can't figure this out something here [TS]

00:38:08   is going on that we obviously don't [TS]

00:38:09   understand i think the piece of [TS]

00:38:11   information was missing is that you know [TS]

00:38:13   we are not privy to special information [TS]

00:38:15   the rest of the world doesn't have the [TS]

00:38:17   rest of the world is using these laptops [TS]

00:38:18   other publications are testing them [TS]

00:38:20   other people owned them [TS]

00:38:21   this is the thing that only we are [TS]

00:38:22   seeing and that was you know if you were [TS]

00:38:26   to read this and and that was your [TS]

00:38:27   source your authoritative source you [TS]

00:38:29   would say well these these uh laptops [TS]

00:38:32   obviously haunted which is not the case [TS]

00:38:33   it was just like that because the report [TS]

00:38:35   was doing a thing that induce the bug [TS]

00:38:38   and the bug is a problem and you're [TS]

00:38:39   right there can be other kinds of bugs [TS]

00:38:40   but i don't know i just it just rubs me [TS]

00:38:42   the wrong way and you're right there is [TS]

00:38:43   some history there with consumer reports [TS]

00:38:45   doing similar types of things and in [TS]

00:38:47   general I don't like consumer reports [TS]

00:38:48   for it I guess at this point the advent [TS]

00:38:51   of the wire cutter I don't like it to [TS]

00:38:52   reports for almost anything anymore so [TS]

00:38:55   maybe maybe a little bit of my general [TS]

00:38:57   attitude about them is showing through [TS]

00:38:58   but like I said I didn't like the PR [TS]

00:39:00   statement for all the reasons you noted [TS]

00:39:01   like them framing is the consumer [TS]

00:39:04   resources doing a terrible thing that is [TS]

00:39:06   the wrong framing when the reality was [TS]

00:39:08   there was an apple bug should lead with [TS]

00:39:09   that like there was a bug [TS]

00:39:11   we fixed it Consumer Reports retesting [TS]

00:39:13   that's such an easy PR with you like if [TS]

00:39:15   we read that statement we go to be like [TS]

00:39:17   all right well that explains it thanks [TS]

00:39:19   Apple we all understand the bugs exist [TS]

00:39:20   but instead that led with consumer [TS]

00:39:22   reports doing a weird thing it's not [TS]

00:39:24   that weird anyway now mad at everybody [TS]

00:39:26   like they definitely think they couldn't [TS]

00:39:28   just say you know we discovered that the [TS]

00:39:31   the problems they were having was due to [TS]

00:39:32   a bug where we fixed it and everything [TS]

00:39:34   like that would be the the direct honest [TS]

00:39:36   way instead they had to drill in that [TS]

00:39:39   consumer reports his test was somehow [TS]

00:39:41   invalid or relevant a hidden feature [TS]

00:39:43   it's a checkbox in the press one yeah [TS]

00:39:45   looks like though they're like implying [TS]

00:39:46   intent and possible malice that consumer [TS]

00:39:49   reports with you know using this hidden [TS]

00:39:50   feature their medical reports to yeah [TS]

00:39:52   and it's it is it's like Apple couldn't [TS]

00:39:55   give a statement without showing how mad [TS]

00:39:57   they were about it and and that's that's [TS]

00:39:59   that's again it's becoming more common [TS]

00:40:01   with their defensive statements here and [TS]

00:40:02   I don't think that's that's a a [TS]

00:40:05   professional way to conduct yourselves [TS]

00:40:07   in the context of of PR like that's [TS]

00:40:10   that's what PR is not supposed to do [TS]

00:40:12   like it i don't see it's it's just it [TS]

00:40:15   leaves a sour taste in my mouth is all [TS]

00:40:16   on the flip side of the coin know you [TS]

00:40:18   could make the argument to kind of take [TS]

00:40:20   John's point to the next level [TS]

00:40:22   it was irresponsible and pyaari in a bad [TS]

00:40:25   way for for consumer reports to to say [TS]

00:40:29   oh we can't recommend that the batteries [TS]

00:40:31   crap you know it's the the direct report [TS]

00:40:34   like John said should have been well [TS]

00:40:36   we're not really sure what's going on [TS]

00:40:38   nobody else in the world seems to be [TS]

00:40:39   getting similar results so also either [TS]

00:40:42   don't publish anything or alternatively [TS]

00:40:43   you know right now we're saying no but [TS]

00:40:47   we got to get back to it whereas it [TS]

00:40:48   seems like it was from what I gather it [TS]

00:40:51   was it was a little bit more aggressive [TS]

00:40:52   than that like I don't think there was [TS]

00:40:54   malice there but the same way Marco that [TS]

00:40:56   you're reading all this like malice and [TS]

00:40:58   and and propaganda in the Apple response [TS]

00:41:01   which I think there's treats to that or [TS]

00:41:03   at least it appears to be true from my [TS]

00:41:05   point of view you can take that exact [TS]

00:41:08   same approach to looking at the Consumer [TS]

00:41:11   Reports statement which was in many ways [TS]

00:41:13   also irresponsible and also premature [TS]

00:41:15   and also pyaari and also just not good [TS]

00:41:18   consumer important maybe it's because my [TS]

00:41:21   standards are so low for consumer [TS]

00:41:22   reports because like John i have lost a [TS]

00:41:24   lot of faith in them over the years [TS]

00:41:25   yeah so maybe I'm grading on a curve [TS]

00:41:27   here but even if consumer reports did [TS]

00:41:30   something outrageous i don't think that [TS]

00:41:32   makes apples tone of their response ok [TS]

00:41:34   like that it like Apple should be the [TS]

00:41:37   bigger person here see agree exactly the [TS]

00:41:39   same are [TS]

00:41:40   unit was was made by a few people i [TS]

00:41:42   think including man Reese with with both [TS]

00:41:45   on professor about about dash like [TS]

00:41:47   apples to apples apple and you know [TS]

00:41:50   they're making these statements against [TS]

00:41:51   this one indie developer and this this [TS]

00:41:54   magazine / website that is that has cut [TS]

00:41:57   staff to the bone in recent years and is [TS]

00:41:59   like barely afloat like and their apple [TS]

00:42:02   right they are they are like Goliath [TS]

00:42:05   here like they don't I i'm sorry mrs. [TS]

00:42:08   Messick metaphor i know that's kind of [TS]

00:42:10   how the story goes but Apple does not [TS]

00:42:12   the Apple can afford to be the bigger [TS]

00:42:15   person here with their statements and to [TS]

00:42:17   not kind of play the bully almost and [TS]

00:42:19   and what that the tone they takin these [TS]

00:42:21   statements is like we're not going to [TS]

00:42:24   tell you what happened [TS]

00:42:25   we are going to discredit the people who [TS]

00:42:27   are making these accusations against us [TS]

00:42:28   first we're gonna make that we're gonna [TS]

00:42:30   drag them through member to make them [TS]

00:42:31   look like they were bad and in and [TS]

00:42:34   malicious and at fault and doing crazy [TS]

00:42:37   about things when actually it was our [TS]

00:42:39   problem [TS]

00:42:40   alright let's move on I on the Swift [TS]

00:42:44   evolution email list which the who knew [TS]

00:42:47   that email list were still think this is [TS]

00:42:49   like straight out in 98 anyway they r [TS]

00:42:51   for language nerds they are there is a [TS]

00:42:54   post from chris lattner that that the [TS]

00:42:57   title is update on the Swift product [TS]

00:42:58   project lead and there's a little bit [TS]

00:43:01   preamble and the meat of it is right [TS]

00:43:03   about that before you start reading the [TS]

00:43:05   the subject line of that email [TS]

00:43:08   having worked in corporate America for a [TS]

00:43:11   long time here we all know it slowly on [TS]

00:43:14   the subject subject line you can tell [TS]

00:43:16   what kind of news is going to be your [TS]

00:43:19   email but having seen enough emails that [TS]

00:43:21   euphemistically express personnel [TS]

00:43:25   changes or other bad news about the [TS]

00:43:27   company [TS]

00:43:28   yeah the best one is when the subject [TS]

00:43:30   line is somebody's name like the subject [TS]

00:43:31   line is from someone else in the company [TS]

00:43:33   and the name is like it is just be like [TS]

00:43:35   the employee's name sorry [TS]

00:43:36   either they died or they got fired but [TS]

00:43:38   that's one of the one of those two [TS]

00:43:39   things happened here for updates on [TS]

00:43:41   update on is another rainy a euphemism [TS]

00:43:43   is what happened yeah and by the way the [TS]

00:43:45   language used when somebody dies first [TS]

00:43:47   getting fired is pretty close yeah let's [TS]

00:43:49   not go there [TS]

00:43:50   ok not to say wrong but let's not go [TS]

00:43:52   there [TS]

00:43:52   so update on the switch project lead [TS]

00:43:54   from click chris lattner and walks when [TS]

00:43:56   he he is in a second but the meat of [TS]

00:43:59   this email or the is i'm happy to [TS]

00:44:02   announce that Ted criminal is that how [TS]

00:44:03   you pronounce it [TS]

00:44:04   do you guys know let's go with it okay [TS]

00:44:07   I'm happy 28th king of pronunciation [TS]

00:44:09   seriously that Ted chronic will be [TS]

00:44:12   taking over for me as quote Project Lead [TS]

00:44:15   quote for the Swiss project managing the [TS]

00:44:17   administrative leadership responsibility [TS]

00:44:18   for swift org this recognizes the [TS]

00:44:20   incredible effort that he has already [TS]

00:44:22   been putting into the project and [TS]

00:44:23   reflects the decision of made to leave [TS]

00:44:25   Apple later this month to pursue an [TS]

00:44:26   opportunity in another space way to bury [TS]

00:44:29   lead Chris yeah his decision wasn't made [TS]

00:44:31   lightly and I want you all to know that [TS]

00:44:33   I'm still completely committed to Swift [TS]

00:44:35   i plan to remain an active member of the [TS]

00:44:36   switch core team as well as a [TS]

00:44:37   contributor to the Swift evolution [TS]

00:44:39   mailing list and then there's some very [TS]

00:44:42   nice [TS]

00:44:43   no comments about working at apple blah [TS]

00:44:45   blah everything will be okay this guy's [TS]

00:44:46   following blah blah [TS]

00:44:47   that was about noonish our time [TS]

00:44:51   yesterday followed a few hours later [TS]

00:44:55   with a blog post on Tesla com welcome [TS]

00:44:58   chris lattner we would like to welcome [TS]

00:45:00   chris lattner who will join Tesla's our [TS]

00:45:02   vice-president of of autopilot software [TS]

00:45:04   Christmas reputation for engineering [TS]

00:45:05   excellence as well known he comes to [TS]

00:45:07   testify after 11 years of Apple where he [TS]

00:45:08   was primarily responsible for creating [TS]

00:45:10   Swift the programming language for [TS]

00:45:11   building apps on Apple platforms and one [TS]

00:45:13   of the fastest-growing languages for [TS]

00:45:14   doing so on linux prior to apple [TS]

00:45:17   crystals lead author of the LLVM [TS]

00:45:19   compiler infrastructure and open-source [TS]

00:45:20   umbrella project that is widely used in [TS]

00:45:22   commercial products and academic [TS]

00:45:23   research today [TS]

00:45:25   whoa so let's back up smooch John you [TS]

00:45:28   want to tell secrets liners [TS]

00:45:29   well I think both of those statements [TS]

00:45:31   had to his various titles in there i had [TS]

00:45:33   actually look this up i think his title [TS]

00:45:35   upon departure from Apple was senior [TS]

00:45:38   director and architect developer tools [TS]

00:45:41   department that's a comma inside the [TS]

00:45:43   title such a long time but he was [TS]

00:45:46   basically in charge of all dev tools and [TS]

00:45:47   when he came on board Apple he was [TS]

00:45:49   lowered down but also doing compiler II [TS]

00:45:51   stuff he is responsible for getting [TS]

00:45:54   apple off bc and onto [TS]

00:45:57   a was first agc work like compiler based [TS]

00:46:00   on the LLVM compiler building tool kit [TS]

00:46:04   that he made billions that he started [TS]

00:46:06   before he came to apples probably based [TS]

00:46:07   in one of the reasons i hired I'm sure [TS]

00:46:08   and then eventually claim which is [TS]

00:46:11   replacement for GCC and of course with [TS]

00:46:13   programming language that we all know [TS]

00:46:15   and love and or are avoiding that and [TS]

00:46:21   you know so that that's gristle and sees [TS]

00:46:24   the it for in LA and sort of nerds to [TS]

00:46:27   follow Apple parlance but don't own [TS]

00:46:28   personnel he's the guy who was onstage [TS]

00:46:30   announcing Swift at WWDC that's that's [TS]

00:46:34   the dude so very important person apple [TS]

00:46:37   has had a very illustrious career [TS]

00:46:39   obviously the driving force between [TS]

00:46:40   behind many of the biggest changes [TS]

00:46:43   having to do with developer tools at [TS]

00:46:46   apple with with the platform on which [TS]

00:46:47   development is at this point of his his [TS]

00:46:49   final title like I think he was in [TS]

00:46:50   charge of all xcode not just like the [TS]

00:46:52   compiler to be better he started off [TS]

00:46:53   just doing a pile of stuff and moved all [TS]

00:46:55   the opportunities you know have all dev [TS]

00:46:57   tools so wide-ranging influence and [TS]

00:47:00   unquestionably Swift is the biggest [TS]

00:47:03   thing to happen to develop an apple [TS]

00:47:04   platforms in many many many years and so [TS]

00:47:08   he's leaving and he's going to Tesla and [TS]

00:47:12   the first thing that occurred to me [TS]

00:47:13   about this announcement was that it took [TS]

00:47:16   place the first place I saw it anyway [TS]

00:47:18   and i'm pretty sure the first place that [TS]

00:47:19   it appeared anywhere publicly was on the [TS]

00:47:23   Swift evolution mailing list which is a [TS]

00:47:25   public man with about the open-source [TS]

00:47:27   development of the Swift programming [TS]

00:47:30   language because Swift is open source [TS]

00:47:31   thanks to chris's efforts inside apple [TS]

00:47:34   and that's where he chose to announces [TS]

00:47:36   departure not on Twitter not an apple [TS]

00:47:38   press release not in any other channel [TS]

00:47:41   not on his blog but on the open-source [TS]

00:47:43   mailing list and any buried you know two [TS]

00:47:46   paragraphs down an email about a change [TS]

00:47:48   in and leadership the open-source [TS]

00:47:49   separate which i think in itself is a [TS]

00:47:51   statement about his dedication to open [TS]

00:47:54   source and his respect for the community [TS]

00:47:57   that the the funerals who are following [TS]

00:47:59   a mailing list of all things you can you [TS]

00:48:01   believe who people old people like me [TS]

00:48:03   still subscribe to me that's the land [TS]

00:48:05   and that he that he is telling not the [TS]

00:48:08   public at large and not a bunch of press [TS]

00:48:10   let's but the people who contribute to [TS]

00:48:14   the evolution of the Swift language so i [TS]

00:48:17   thought that made a statement and at the [TS]

00:48:20   time it the the announced he was leaving [TS]

00:48:22   I didn't know where I was going but as [TS]

00:48:24   Casey points that we didn't wait very [TS]

00:48:25   long only have an hour to later and the [TS]

00:48:29   mystery was solved [TS]

00:48:30   yes is this is a this is a big deal as [TS]

00:48:33   far as I'm concerned I mean it's hard to [TS]

00:48:35   say from an outsider's point of view how [TS]

00:48:40   much Chris was involved in what women [TS]

00:48:43   should even say that since since it is [TS]

00:48:45   open source but i personally don't keep [TS]

00:48:47   up with the day-to-day doings on the [TS]

00:48:50   Swift project and certainly since Apple [TS]

00:48:54   was kind enough and I mean that [TS]

00:48:56   genuinely I'm not trying to be snarky [TS]

00:48:58   apples kind enough to upload the entire [TS]

00:49:00   commit history for swift to get hub and [TS]

00:49:03   people went digging through the early [TS]

00:49:05   commits forget 344 Swift and it really [TS]

00:49:09   was latter's baby for like a year or [TS]

00:49:11   something like that and then gradually [TS]

00:49:13   and gradually gradually more and more [TS]

00:49:15   Apple engineers came on board but I mean [TS]

00:49:17   this is the language in which i write [TS]

00:49:19   code every weekday and this is in many [TS]

00:49:24   ways how I pay for the roof over my head [TS]

00:49:26   this very moment so I mean I personally [TS]

00:49:30   oh a great debt of gratitude to chris [TS]

00:49:32   lattner and I think Marco does as well [TS]

00:49:34   by virtue of xcode being under chris [TS]

00:49:36   lattner as well and LEM and I like a lot [TS]

00:49:40   of other stuff to it not just Swift you [TS]

00:49:42   know there were a lot of other things [TS]

00:49:43   that he'd like you know I don't use with [TS]

00:49:44   yet as everyone knows haha but like he [TS]

00:49:47   also did tons of stuff for the entire [TS]

00:49:49   rest of developers back including the [TS]

00:49:51   compiler and objective-c yeah yeah so [TS]

00:49:54   this certainly strikes me as a pretty [TS]

00:49:58   darn big deal it's a pretty big blow to [TS]

00:50:02   see somebody that important that high up [TS]

00:50:05   and from everything i've ever heard that [TS]

00:50:09   well light leave Apple and then it's [TS]

00:50:12   just turning the dark knight for the [TS]

00:50:14   firm to be going to Tesla that's not a [TS]

00:50:15   bad thing necessarily but I've got to [TS]

00:50:18   imagine that Apple's pretty sensitive to [TS]

00:50:20   these sorts of defections and [TS]

00:50:23   this one's gotta sting and he's not the [TS]

00:50:25   only one as people are pointing out [TS]

00:50:27   right now there have been several [TS]

00:50:28   relatively high profile though I don't [TS]

00:50:31   think as high-profile Apple departures [TS]

00:50:33   on on their way to Tesla so this is this [TS]

00:50:36   is kind of a bummer for apple for sure [TS]

00:50:37   and we have a link in the show notes for [TS]

00:50:40   Christina Warren's article where she [TS]

00:50:41   gathered this big list of recent [TS]

00:50:43   departures and the companies that [TS]

00:50:45   they're going to and you see a lot of [TS]

00:50:46   Tesla on that list i mean obviously this [TS]

00:50:48   is not a scientific sample the Apple we [TS]

00:50:50   have no idea what Apple's normal [TS]

00:50:51   turnover is and if this is more than [TS]

00:50:53   usual or whatever but high-profile was [TS]

00:50:55   like this like those are the ones that [TS]

00:50:57   we notice and it's a good occasion to [TS]

00:50:59   see like if people are leaving Apple [TS]

00:51:00   where they're going and it looks like [TS]

00:51:01   right now you know prompt more people [TS]

00:51:05   than perhaps people thought were leaving [TS]

00:51:07   Apple to go to Tesla which I guess would [TS]

00:51:10   seem weird if there hasn't been rumors [TS]

00:51:11   of an apple car related project for so [TS]

00:51:13   many years but now just like yeah that [TS]

00:51:15   kind of makes sense right i mean like [TS]

00:51:17   and it depends on the person to like you [TS]

00:51:19   know somebody like like latter I mean [TS]

00:51:21   this is you know he's obviously an [TS]

00:51:23   incredibly smart engineer and and that's [TS]

00:51:27   like understanding things right [TS]

00:51:29   also is apparently really good worker [TS]

00:51:31   but anyway you know really smart [TS]

00:51:35   engineers tend to eat to tend to two [TS]

00:51:37   things either they get a job at one [TS]

00:51:40   company and work there forever for their [TS]

00:51:42   entire career like a place like Google [TS]

00:51:43   or something like you know they they go [TS]

00:51:44   there and they stay forever this is [TS]

00:51:47   often what what more academic [TS]

00:51:48   programmers tend to like to do because [TS]

00:51:50   it that tends to enable them to be a [TS]

00:51:53   little bit more academically free in a [TS]

00:51:55   way and and to really get established [TS]

00:51:57   and to really not have to worry about [TS]

00:51:59   like the employment situation much and [TS]

00:52:01   just do great intellectual things and [TS]

00:52:04   then the other pattern usually c4 really [TS]

00:52:06   talented very smart people in [TS]

00:52:09   engineering at least they'll do one [TS]

00:52:11   thing for a couple years and then want [TS]

00:52:13   to do something else because they just [TS]

00:52:15   want to keep like attacking new crazy [TS]

00:52:18   interesting problems and once they have [TS]

00:52:21   kind of gotten something stable or [TS]

00:52:24   released or whatever they get antsy i [TS]

00:52:26   want to move something else that usually [TS]

00:52:28   you see those two extremes with very [TS]

00:52:30   smart engineers because you know we know [TS]

00:52:33   chris's is that level of [TS]

00:52:35   of talent it could have just been the [TS]

00:52:37   latter like it's hard to look at this [TS]

00:52:40   and and to really read anything into [TS]

00:52:42   this one person changing jobs and and [TS]

00:52:47   that's not to say the aggregate doesn't [TS]

00:52:48   maybe say something but it is one person [TS]

00:52:50   changing jobs to a different company [TS]

00:52:52   somebody who's that smart [TS]

00:52:54   it is not unheard of for them to to [TS]

00:52:57   change and he's been an apple for a long [TS]

00:52:59   time and so to change what it was 11 [TS]

00:53:02   years i forgot 11 so many that's right [TS]

00:53:04   it's a long and that's a lot for [TS]

00:53:05   somebody of that caliber it's a long [TS]

00:53:07   time so the fact that he goes left and [TS]

00:53:10   even though he would he left it [TS]

00:53:12   somewhere that's that's possibly like a [TS]

00:53:13   bit of a red flag that alone I don't [TS]

00:53:17   think his reason for concern now if you [TS]

00:53:19   look at that there's a couple of things [TS]

00:53:21   about this that are interesting and and [TS]

00:53:23   possibly concerning if you're looking at [TS]

00:53:25   apple one I think is the timing is a [TS]

00:53:29   little odd you know at the apple is at [TS]

00:53:34   this point it's barely even secret [TS]

00:53:35   anymore that Apple is working on a car [TS]

00:53:37   project and that they're devoting a lot [TS]

00:53:38   of resources to it you can look around [TS]

00:53:41   what that what they're doing in the rest [TS]

00:53:43   of the product lines and it seems like [TS]

00:53:45   they're having a hard time keeping up [TS]

00:53:46   with pretty much everything and they're [TS]

00:53:49   devoting a lot of resources to something [TS]

00:53:52   less than before though if the rumors [TS]

00:53:54   are to be believed because before they [TS]

00:53:55   were devoting way more resources when [TS]

00:53:57   they were supposedly making an actual [TS]

00:53:59   physical car and then supposedly rumor [TS]

00:54:01   says that they laid off a bunch of [TS]

00:54:02   people and said no we're not actually [TS]

00:54:04   making a physical car instead we're [TS]

00:54:05   making self-driving software for cars [TS]

00:54:08   well it sounds more like the answer was [TS]

00:54:10   we're not making a car yet [TS]

00:54:11   I i think that was the actual pills or [TS]

00:54:13   at least we're not making this car that [TS]

00:54:15   we have been working on anyway we're all [TS]

00:54:17   we've got is remembers example and say [TS]

00:54:18   anything about this but but the non [TS]

00:54:20   rumor thing is what what is crystalline [TS]

00:54:22   are going to do a Tesla vice president [TS]

00:54:24   of autopilot software so if Chris was [TS]

00:54:27   actually interested in working on [TS]

00:54:29   software for self-driving cars [TS]

00:54:31   obviously we know for a fact Tesla has a [TS]

00:54:34   department working on that and [TS]

00:54:36   supposedly Apple possibly maybe if you [TS]

00:54:38   believe the rumors also had a department [TS]

00:54:40   doing that so it's not even as if he had [TS]

00:54:44   to leave Apple to work on car things [TS]

00:54:46   maybe [TS]

00:54:47   but I that's that's that's why we're [TS]

00:54:49   saying it's like twisting the knife to [TS]

00:54:50   go to Tesla because it's I mean it's [TS]

00:54:52   it's kind of strange to to compare [TS]

00:54:55   rumors of what Apple supposedly doing [TS]

00:54:57   with the concrete reality but we know [TS]

00:54:59   Tesla is doing but in and techniques [TS]

00:55:02   circles and the fact that Apple the [TS]

00:55:04   Tesla and apple have this open door [TS]

00:55:07   policy apparently with their personnel [TS]

00:55:09   going in both directions and the slight [TS]

00:55:10   animosity about poaching each other's [TS]

00:55:12   employees the competition the [TS]

00:55:14   competition between Apple and tehsil [TS]

00:55:15   seems to be a real thing whether it's [TS]

00:55:17   founded on an actual overlap in product [TS]

00:55:20   efforts is gone [TS]

00:55:21   yeah that's the thing is that [TS]

00:55:22   irrespective of whether or not Apple is [TS]

00:55:25   working on a car or car related things [TS]

00:55:27   it seems pretty clear even from all the [TS]

00:55:31   way on the other coast that there is [TS]

00:55:33   increasing amounts of animosity between [TS]

00:55:34   the two companies about defections from [TS]

00:55:37   one to the other [TS]

00:55:38   yeah and that's why i like you know the [TS]

00:55:41   the company he went to is interesting [TS]

00:55:44   you know for that reason what he went [TS]

00:55:47   there to do when Apple allegedly rumored [TS]

00:55:50   wise has that department at in active [TS]

00:55:54   development is interesting and and and [TS]

00:55:57   the timing i think is interesting [TS]

00:55:58   because I don't [TS]

00:56:00   Casey what does Swift seem like it's in [TS]

00:56:03   a very stable place right now I honestly [TS]

00:56:04   i don't know i don't follow it yeah yeah [TS]

00:56:07   okay so I I can't answer that question [TS]

00:56:10   because no matter what i say half of the [TS]

00:56:14   Swift users will say I am dead wrong [TS]

00:56:16   also the the simple the simple answer is [TS]

00:56:18   it is not yet totally stable but we are [TS]

00:56:23   told that swift for will bring ABI [TS]

00:56:25   stability and at that point all the [TS]

00:56:28   bumps in the road should really start to [TS]

00:56:30   smooth out i'm not saying that's [TS]

00:56:32   accurate but i'm saying that's what [TS]

00:56:34   everyone is being told so take that for [TS]

00:56:36   what you want you can you can interpret [TS]

00:56:38   that to be whatever you mean but that's [TS]

00:56:40   that should be soon also next year's eve [TS]

00:56:44   linux on the desktop [TS]

00:56:45   well you know the stability not another [TS]

00:56:47   word for stability you know you're only [TS]

00:56:49   stable and your deadlines never to be [TS]

00:56:50   stable because the question of what you [TS]

00:56:53   know it's the question is like so that's [TS]

00:56:56   what this is chris honors baby right now [TS]

00:56:59   and I timing wise if you were to look at [TS]

00:57:02   in terms of the Swift language it's a [TS]

00:57:03   little bit weird to move on to other [TS]

00:57:07   things before you're sure that like that [TS]

00:57:10   you know your child has grown grown into [TS]

00:57:13   an adult or the very least is [TS]

00:57:14   potty-trained right and I'm not gonna [TS]

00:57:18   say bi capabilities potty training but [TS]

00:57:20   like having to bundle like you know that [TS]

00:57:23   all the libraries with your application [TS]

00:57:24   because you can't be guaranteed a binary [TS]

00:57:27   compatibility with the next version of [TS]

00:57:29   the standard library and stuff that to [TS]

00:57:31   me still feels like a language that is [TS]

00:57:32   not yet not yet fully formed [TS]

00:57:35   it's not like it's you know it's not an [TS]

00:57:37   unstable or too much is changing because [TS]

00:57:39   they're there you know source [TS]

00:57:40   compatibility is there there on the [TS]

00:57:41   source palatability train at that point [TS]

00:57:43   and even so anyone they weren't on the [TS]

00:57:45   source compatibility don't think it was [TS]

00:57:46   that bad next code was good about [TS]

00:57:47   helping you update your stuff like it [TS]

00:57:48   wasn't you know it's on version 3 is not [TS]

00:57:51   version you know point 09 or whatever [TS]

00:57:54   likely be incremented major versions [TS]

00:57:55   pretty quickly because they did change [TS]

00:57:58   major changes the language during that [TS]

00:58:00   time the one last thing like is that is [TS]

00:58:02   ABI competitive feel like after that [TS]

00:58:04   it's not as if it's stable [TS]

00:58:05   it's still going to improve and get [TS]

00:58:07   better but i think it will have crossed [TS]

00:58:09   the line into a language that you can [TS]

00:58:12   use without any more caveat it's anymore [TS]

00:58:14   implementation caveat because now you [TS]

00:58:16   have as may be like oh well I don't like [TS]

00:58:18   this feature that feature but once it [TS]

00:58:20   works like objective-c and that it's [TS]

00:58:22   like a language that you can write in to [TS]

00:58:23   be you know and your application will be [TS]

00:58:25   compatible with the next version of the [TS]

00:58:27   US and all the frameworks and libraries [TS]

00:58:29   and other stuff without you having to [TS]

00:58:30   bundle that crap with your app like [TS]

00:58:32   that's a sign of language isn't quite [TS]

00:58:33   done so to have chris leave before that [TS]

00:58:38   you know the baby leaves the nest i keep [TS]

00:58:40   searching for new analogies and which [TS]

00:58:41   one we're going to favor but like [TS]

00:58:43   because it's so bad it's like oh he left [TS]

00:58:45   before Swift is done so it's never gonna [TS]

00:58:46   be done language is never done but like [TS]

00:58:48   before it feel like it crosses the line [TS]

00:58:50   now he didn't leave right after one [TS]

00:58:52   point no because that would be a much [TS]

00:58:53   worse time to leave and Swift is [TS]

00:58:55   certainly in good hands it's not like it [TS]

00:58:56   was hinging on him being there but [TS]

00:58:58   purely from the perspective of wouldn't [TS]

00:59:01   you like to be there to see this thing [TS]

00:59:03   through even if as he expresses a desire [TS]

00:59:05   is not you know that the language is [TS]

00:59:07   fine it's in good hands [TS]

00:59:09   there is a road map there are ppl [TS]

00:59:11   executing on it he is not super [TS]

00:59:12   essential for that and even if he was he [TS]

00:59:14   can still contribute to an open sore [TS]

00:59:15   like it that's fine it's not as if he's [TS]

00:59:18   it's not as if him leaving is a problem [TS]

00:59:20   for swift the language at all but [TS]

00:59:22   emotionally speaking it you know it [TS]

00:59:26   probably seems you know if I myself in [TS]

00:59:29   his place I would want to like say you [TS]

00:59:31   were going to retire whatever you would [TS]

00:59:33   choose not to retire to let me just get [TS]

00:59:34   the Swift thing and just like see it off [TS]

00:59:36   into the sunset and say here's my great [TS]

00:59:38   accomplishment and he can do that now [TS]

00:59:40   but I know I i think i would want to see [TS]

00:59:46   it along a little bit farther before I [TS]

00:59:48   before I considered it like a mission [TS]

00:59:50   accomplished and now we can now can [TS]

00:59:52   continue to grow and blossom into a [TS]

00:59:54   successful adult or whatever and so [TS]

00:59:57   that's that gets me into the the [TS]

00:59:57   that's that gets me into the the [TS]

01:00:00   then the next larger point here about a [TS]

01:00:02   big departure is like this reasons [TS]

01:00:04   people might leave Apple Marco touched [TS]

01:00:06   on a lot of these already like you're [TS]

01:00:07   really smart people you bored or you [TS]

01:00:12   know if you're you just want to try [TS]

01:00:14   something else you decide you want to be [TS]

01:00:15   programming are you know you don't feel [TS]

01:00:17   like you can advance the organization [TS]

01:00:19   anymore but I feel like this this very [TS]

01:00:21   high level when you start getting into [TS]

01:00:23   like people with senior and director in [TS]

01:00:25   their title i have to think the only [TS]

01:00:27   reason people leave aside from the [TS]

01:00:30   marker set of like I just wanted to do [TS]

01:00:31   something else which is definitely think [TS]

01:00:33   is that there's some fundamental [TS]

01:00:38   disagreement about something important [TS]

01:00:39   if that important thing is your own [TS]

01:00:41   advancement the organization that could [TS]

01:00:44   be it for people who like feel like [TS]

01:00:46   their careers always have to be [TS]

01:00:47   advancing and if they feel like they'll [TS]

01:00:48   never be able to advance farther I don't [TS]

01:00:50   I don't you know even though Chris [TS]

01:00:52   climbed up the ladder very quickly I [TS]

01:00:53   don't feel like he was going to be CEO [TS]

01:00:55   so I don't think that's his barrier it's [TS]

01:00:58   you know I have no information here [TS]

01:01:00   nobody does no one is going to talk [TS]

01:01:02   about this but I have to think it's just [TS]

01:01:03   you know a disagreement about something [TS]

01:01:05   and doesn't need to be a disagreement [TS]

01:01:07   that involves any animosity and doesn't [TS]

01:01:10   need to be a disagreement in which [TS]

01:01:11   either Apple or the person leaving is [TS]

01:01:14   right or wrong and the company's doing [TS]

01:01:15   the person is doing or anything like [TS]

01:01:17   that but just sometimes there's just a [TS]

01:01:20   fundamental intractable disagreement and [TS]

01:01:22   you know you either live with it or you [TS]

01:01:25   decide i don't have to live with it [TS]

01:01:27   because I can go do whatever I want and [TS]

01:01:28   maybe on try something different because [TS]

01:01:30   you know whatever so in in the absence [TS]

01:01:34   of any other information which will [TS]

01:01:35   obviously never be forthcoming because [TS]

01:01:37   the you know nice people don't talk [TS]

01:01:39   about these things until many many years [TS]

01:01:41   later and perhaps not even then it seems [TS]

01:01:45   to me and andy cole departure based on a [TS]

01:01:49   fundamental disagreement about a thing [TS]

01:01:52   that is probably not particularly [TS]

01:01:54   consequential to apple but was obviously [TS]

01:01:57   very consequential to chris lattner and [TS]

01:02:00   so I think that is a reasonable reason [TS]

01:02:03   to move on to something else just as [TS]

01:02:06   reasonable as i'm bored and wanna try [TS]

01:02:08   something else [TS]

01:02:09   so as an illustrative example let's [TS]

01:02:12   suppose [TS]

01:02:12   those that latter really really wanted [TS]

01:02:15   to open source Swift and you know this [TS]

01:02:17   is three or four years ago two years ago [TS]

01:02:19   whatever was and that hadn't happened [TS]

01:02:20   yet an example of something that Apple [TS]

01:02:23   may not be that big a deal but to Chris [TS]

01:02:25   maybe a huge deal is he goes to his [TS]

01:02:27   higher-ups to kroger whomever an apple [TS]

01:02:29   and says I want to open source Swift and [TS]

01:02:31   craigor whomever says not gonna happen [TS]

01:02:33   and and chris says well you know what [TS]

01:02:35   I'm out you know obviously that isn't [TS]

01:02:37   the case but that's the sort of thing [TS]

01:02:38   John I think you're talking about just [TS]

01:02:40   as a hypothetical example is that fair [TS]

01:02:43   yeah that's a perfect example because [TS]

01:02:44   that's the type of thing that like he [TS]

01:02:47   might care deeply about right there and [TS]

01:02:49   then it might you know like this [TS]

01:02:51   his history might not just be I'm gonna [TS]

01:02:53   make this new language called Swift but [TS]

01:02:54   also that he wants to be open source [TS]

01:02:56   because he wanted to see the language [TS]

01:02:57   spread beyond the walls of apple now [TS]

01:03:00   arguably if they told to know [TS]

01:03:03   open-source after the language has been [TS]

01:03:04   announced likes a little bit late for [TS]

01:03:06   that or whatever but obviously didn't [TS]

01:03:07   announce the language and it wasn't open [TS]

01:03:09   source and only was open source later so [TS]

01:03:11   we you know he he was a driver for that [TS]

01:03:14   inside Apple which is no secret he says [TS]

01:03:18   it himself on his own website if you [TS]

01:03:19   want to read it and you know anyone [TS]

01:03:21   who's ever heard him speak about it [TS]

01:03:23   before was open source could tell that [TS]

01:03:24   he was in favor of because it was asked [TS]

01:03:26   in interviews or whatever about it with [TS]

01:03:28   open source to be like oh you could tell [TS]

01:03:29   that he wanted and eventually he got it [TS]

01:03:31   if he hadn't gotten it maybe that would [TS]

01:03:34   have been something that said you know [TS]

01:03:35   this is really this is really crushing [TS]

01:03:37   my dream about Swift and I really wanted [TS]

01:03:39   to be open source and this is a [TS]

01:03:41   deal-breaker for me and it's the type of [TS]

01:03:42   thing that that apple would know I mean [TS]

01:03:44   they would know that this important [TS]

01:03:47   person who's been important to the [TS]

01:03:48   company wants this thing and if we [TS]

01:03:50   decide no on it it could cause him to [TS]

01:03:52   leave like that somebody you know [TS]

01:03:53   turnover is a possibility and so like [TS]

01:03:55   it's not as if I think this is a mystery [TS]

01:03:57   or surprised anyone involved in it in [TS]

01:03:59   like that that's how these things go [TS]

01:04:01   down if you have a super important [TS]

01:04:02   person in the company you'll be willing [TS]

01:04:04   to do things to retain that person you [TS]

01:04:06   wouldn't otherwise that's that's another [TS]

01:04:08   one of these ballplayers had how do you [TS]

01:04:10   retain how do you retain the best people [TS]

01:04:11   in your company one of the ways you [TS]

01:04:12   retain them is finding out what's [TS]

01:04:14   important to them and wherever possible [TS]

01:04:16   without compromising the good of the [TS]

01:04:19   whole company or the rest of the people [TS]

01:04:20   who work there being willing to do to [TS]

01:04:23   bend over backwards to keep them there [TS]

01:04:25   I'm sure I don't know what kind of [TS]

01:04:26   things they had to do to keep Johnny [TS]

01:04:28   I've there but i'm sure there are a lot [TS]

01:04:29   of them and you know Apple we entirely [TS]

01:04:31   willing to do them all you want to work [TS]

01:04:33   from England for a few years ago you [TS]

01:04:34   want to you know make this product you [TS]

01:04:36   want to do the apple watch edition want [TS]

01:04:37   to make a three-hundred-dollar book like [TS]

01:04:38   whatever like those are easy easy sure [TS]

01:04:41   we were going to keep Johnny I've we're [TS]

01:04:43   gonna make him happy that's how you [TS]

01:04:44   retain employees but at a certain point [TS]

01:04:46   if Johnny I've says I want to stop [TS]

01:04:49   making iphones and start making pens [TS]

01:04:51   only within them and they're gonna end [TS]

01:04:55   if you don't let me do this i'm leaving [TS]

01:04:56   the company Apple is going to say well [TS]

01:04:58   done more of a market do something [TS]

01:04:59   yeah why don't you say well Johnny we're [TS]

01:05:01   gonna have to part ways here because [TS]

01:05:03   we're gonna stop making iphones no [TS]

01:05:04   matter how much you want to make pens [TS]

01:05:05   you know so I you know I there's no bad [TS]

01:05:09   guy in that situation is just a you know [TS]

01:05:11   an amicable parting of ways among titans [TS]

01:05:14   of industry it's it's wild and I mean a [TS]

01:05:18   lot of people have been saying for a [TS]

01:05:20   long time that retention is one of the [TS]

01:05:23   biggest threats to apple and I'm not [TS]

01:05:28   that chris lattner leaving alone proves [TS]

01:05:31   that that that theory but certainly it [TS]

01:05:33   it gives credence to that theory because [TS]

01:05:35   this is it certainly seems like a big [TS]

01:05:37   deal now a lot of people in the chat [TS]

01:05:38   seem to think that this is well i'm [TS]

01:05:41   filling in some blanks here but seem to [TS]

01:05:43   be separated on the thought that he's [TS]

01:05:45   now going to be a VP at Tesla so this is [TS]

01:05:47   in principle and imprint an upgrade in [TS]

01:05:50   title and that could be enough [TS]

01:05:54   I don't think that's the case I mean I [TS]

01:05:56   don't know Chris but they're pretty [TS]

01:05:59   impression of him that I got is that [TS]

01:06:00   he's not the kind to chase the title [TS]

01:06:02   he's the kind that just wants to do [TS]

01:06:03   interesting work but it could be as [TS]

01:06:06   simple as he wanted to be a VP and you [TS]

01:06:09   know Craig isn't going anywhere not even [TS]

01:06:11   if he reported up to correct but it [TS]

01:06:12   seems logical and so he decided you know [TS]

01:06:15   what I want to be a vp somewhere in [TS]

01:06:16   Tesla's doing interesting stuff so if i [TS]

01:06:19   go i tend to think that John is right [TS]

01:06:21   that it's something deeper than that but [TS]

01:06:23   you never know people do odd things for [TS]

01:06:25   other reasons and very well could be [TS]

01:06:27   that I mean honestly like if i were to [TS]

01:06:30   take a job in Silicon Valley that's a [TS]

01:06:33   massive if I know and that's something [TS]

01:06:35   like me to ever happen I can't even [TS]

01:06:37   complete list there we should make a [TS]

01:06:38   real [TS]

01:06:38   to show that ever happens but oh my god [TS]

01:06:40   yes but if i were to ever take a driver [TS]

01:06:42   Silicon Valley I i think apple and Tesla [TS]

01:06:45   would be my top two picks and I think it [TS]

01:06:48   would it might be more interesting for [TS]

01:06:50   me to work at Tesla I don't know [TS]

01:06:52   hey I would I would honestly very [TS]

01:06:54   heavily consider both if I got offers [TS]

01:06:57   from both and i think i might lean [TS]

01:06:59   towards test let me say I think that [TS]

01:07:00   might be the kind of more exciting place [TS]

01:07:03   to be right now for my interests [TS]

01:07:05   I don't know I I could totally see why [TS]

01:07:08   somebody would would make that decision [TS]

01:07:09   so anyway my summary of this is [TS]

01:07:12   basically like there are lots of [TS]

01:07:14   legitimate reasons why somebody would go [TS]

01:07:17   from Apple Tesla that they have that are [TS]

01:07:20   not like bad signs for apple [TS]

01:07:23   however there are enough like possible [TS]

01:07:27   bad signs for Apple here especially with [TS]

01:07:29   things like the timing and what he's [TS]

01:07:30   going there to do with Apple possibly [TS]

01:07:32   having that same position in active [TS]

01:07:34   development right now there are reasons [TS]

01:07:37   here for people to be concerned I don't [TS]

01:07:40   think this is a massive like story on [TS]

01:07:43   its own but it might be a bit might be [TS]

01:07:46   part of a bigger story we don't know [TS]

01:07:49   like is it is tested poaching tons of [TS]

01:07:51   people from Apple we don't really know [TS]

01:07:52   because typically when people go to [TS]

01:07:54   apple from anywhere else [TS]

01:07:56   Apple tends to keep that pretty quiet so [TS]

01:07:59   we're only seeing one side of this like [TS]

01:08:01   it i think when testing takes people [TS]

01:08:03   that quiet about it and they don't [TS]

01:08:05   really care but when Apple hire people [TS]

01:08:07   they tend to want to keep that very [TS]

01:08:08   quiet so we're only really seen one [TS]

01:08:10   direction this it could be a more [TS]

01:08:13   balanced exchange of people you know we [TS]

01:08:15   don't know [TS]

01:08:16   however if you if you look at the the [TS]

01:08:19   scraps that we're getting us the scraps [TS]

01:08:23   of info and rumors and knowledge about [TS]

01:08:24   Apple it's getting increasingly hard to [TS]

01:08:28   look at this in a way that doesn't look [TS]

01:08:30   bad like it looks like something is [TS]

01:08:32   going wrong in a pretty serious way and [TS]

01:08:36   that could be wrong because again we [TS]

01:08:37   don't have that much information here [TS]

01:08:38   but it's it's getting harder and harder [TS]

01:08:41   to look at this and explain it in a way [TS]

01:08:44   where everything's fine [TS]

01:08:47   well what do you think of a serious [TS]

01:08:48   issue like giving a hypothetical where [TS]

01:08:50   this would be concerning like you [TS]

01:08:51   attended the fact that Apple potentially [TS]

01:08:54   has a self-driving software thing too so [TS]

01:08:56   why couldn't you just ate an apple into [TS]

01:08:57   the self-driving software thing is that [TS]

01:08:58   the only situation you think looks bad [TS]

01:09:01   or other ones we're seeing it seemed [TS]

01:09:04   like we are eating a lot of costs as [TS]

01:09:07   Apple customers in order to fund the [TS]

01:09:09   Apple car project it seems like they're [TS]

01:09:11   putting a whole lot of talent on [TS]

01:09:13   something big there that almost everyone [TS]

01:09:15   seems to agree is almost certainly a car [TS]

01:09:18   project even Apple has been like [TS]

01:09:20   decreasing Lee secretive about that like [TS]

01:09:23   in like Tim Cook statement and [TS]

01:09:24   everything like it doesn't seem like [TS]

01:09:25   they're trying to have AI don't have the [TS]

01:09:27   background but we don't know where [TS]

01:09:28   they're putting on it they could be [TS]

01:09:29   hiring all new people for the cartoon [TS]

01:09:31   for all we know like that's true but I i [TS]

01:09:34   we we're hearing a lot of rumblings from [TS]

01:09:37   a lot of different places over time that [TS]

01:09:40   like it's actually becoming the [TS]

01:09:42   significant talent stuck to the [TS]

01:09:44   organization so basically apples putting [TS]

01:09:47   a lot of resources and and sacrificing [TS]

01:09:51   some attention on their existing product [TS]

01:09:53   lines into this car project and it [TS]

01:09:58   doesn't seem like it's going well [TS]

01:10:00   internally through whatever reasons like [TS]

01:10:02   whether it's you know interpersonal [TS]

01:10:04   issues management issues bad direction [TS]

01:10:06   who knows we were probably never going [TS]

01:10:07   to know that but it doesn't appear that [TS]

01:10:10   whatever is happening there it doesn't [TS]

01:10:11   look good it it seems like we're seeing [TS]

01:10:13   a lot of cracks and symptoms on the [TS]

01:10:15   outside indicate like things are not [TS]

01:10:18   going the way they were expected to go [TS]

01:10:20   and so if Apple is pouring all of these [TS]

01:10:24   resources into something I sure hope [TS]

01:10:27   that we're getting something out of it I [TS]

01:10:28   sure hope that this is going to be worth [TS]

01:10:30   it to some end because if not this is a [TS]

01:10:33   serious management problem that is my [TS]

01:10:36   main concern that it seems like we're [TS]

01:10:40   seeing increasing signs but you know a [TS]

01:10:43   over the last couple years were seeing [TS]

01:10:45   increasing signs that Apple might be [TS]

01:10:48   having serious management problems and [TS]

01:10:51   almost any one of these individual [TS]

01:10:53   problems or symptoms or failures that we [TS]

01:10:56   see that trickles out almost any [TS]

01:10:58   individual one could be explained away [TS]

01:11:00   by like oh well you know that was [TS]

01:11:02   Intel's fault that was just you know [TS]

01:11:03   happenstance or that just didn't go well [TS]

01:11:05   or whatever else but there Charlotte [TS]

01:11:08   these things piling up [TS]

01:11:09   it's getting increasingly hard to any [TS]

01:11:11   other conclusion then they're having [TS]

01:11:13   serious management problems I my [TS]

01:11:15   position on this is always that I don't [TS]

01:11:17   know enough about the internal workings [TS]

01:11:18   of Apple to assign blame and a few [TS]

01:11:21   things i dunno the most the most i know [TS]

01:11:23   about the internal workings of Apple are [TS]

01:11:24   things from the past because like that's [TS]

01:11:26   when people talk like years and years [TS]

01:11:27   after it already happened that you find [TS]

01:11:29   out what really went on and [TS]

01:11:30   organizationally personality wise and [TS]

01:11:33   management wise it you know Apple would [TS]

01:11:36   seem to be just as big a pit of vipers [TS]

01:11:39   around the time that apple introduced [TS]

01:11:41   the iphone you know their their greatest [TS]

01:11:43   success as it wasn't any other time so I [TS]

01:11:46   you know I I just I just don't know what [TS]

01:11:49   goes on inside Apple I don't know if [TS]

01:11:50   it's any worse than it was before [TS]

01:11:52   all I have to judge them by it are the [TS]

01:11:54   products that they put out right and in [TS]

01:11:57   that respect as we've talked about the [TS]

01:11:58   past shows you feel like they're you [TS]

01:12:00   know they're slacking off in some areas [TS]

01:12:01   we think they shouldn't be and so on and [TS]

01:12:02   so forth but i can't i personally can't [TS]

01:12:06   make a leap from my satisfaction with [TS]

01:12:09   the products they're putting out to [TS]

01:12:11   internal management related things I [TS]

01:12:14   just because I just feel like I don't [TS]

01:12:15   have enough visibility that it's like [TS]

01:12:16   there's such a black box i have no idea [TS]

01:12:18   what's going on there [TS]

01:12:19   maybe it's ten times better than it was [TS]

01:12:21   when the iphone was introduced right [TS]

01:12:24   maybe is ten times worse i don't know i [TS]

01:12:26   can't i can't match it up certainly [TS]

01:12:28   Chris leaving dozen is not a really a [TS]

01:12:30   point on that graph because as we [TS]

01:12:32   discussed earlier like there are so many [TS]

01:12:34   reasons i feel like you could even if [TS]

01:12:35   the getting back to the scenarios like [TS]

01:12:37   why did you just say an apple and do [TS]

01:12:38   drive self-driving car stuff if I was [TS]

01:12:41   Apple management like I wouldn't really [TS]

01:12:42   want chris lattner working on [TS]

01:12:44   self-driving car stuff no matter how [TS]

01:12:45   much he wants to that I feel like that [TS]

01:12:46   would almost be a situation was like [TS]

01:12:48   well Chris if you really want to work on [TS]

01:12:50   self-driving car stuff like we've [TS]

01:12:52   already got a team doing that and even [TS]

01:12:54   though it seems cool to you we have [TS]

01:12:55   someone managing that team and like that [TS]

01:12:57   you know Chris is valued Apple your [TS]

01:13:00   value to apples higher leading the Swift [TS]

01:13:02   effort right now and Christmas disagree [TS]

01:13:05   with that and say well but i don't care [TS]

01:13:06   i don't want to do that and they there [TS]

01:13:08   may be partying away there and say you [TS]

01:13:09   know what we want you to this you want [TS]

01:13:11   you don't mean like I just I just feel [TS]

01:13:14   like I don't have visibility into that [TS]

01:13:15   type of stuff to know [TS]

01:13:16   michelle has for just the best i'm [TS]

01:13:19   concerned personally concerned about the [TS]

01:13:22   sum of the products are putting out [TS]

01:13:23   decisions they're making about the [TS]

01:13:24   products but I can't draw the line to [TS]

01:13:26   the internals because it's just this is [TS]

01:13:27   the you know big cloud to me well again [TS]

01:13:30   that's why I think it's important to not [TS]

01:13:32   jump on the like something's going wrong [TS]

01:13:34   at Apple train with any one of these [TS]

01:13:37   things because again any one of these no [TS]

01:13:38   you're right any one of these various [TS]

01:13:41   things that happened that like one [TS]

01:13:43   explanation could be a management issue [TS]

01:13:45   right like it's you can't conclude that [TS]

01:13:48   from just one point but what I'm saying [TS]

01:13:50   is that the work we're seeing over and [TS]

01:13:53   over the last year or two like an [TS]

01:13:55   increasing number of like seeming cracks [TS]

01:13:58   in the foundation where that's one of [TS]

01:13:59   the explanations and eventually you know [TS]

01:14:02   it's hard to make other conclusions when [TS]

01:14:05   you have a lot of things that all could [TS]

01:14:07   be explained by you know oh well maybe [TS]

01:14:11   this thing just went badly or maybe [TS]

01:14:12   there's some other explanation but one [TS]

01:14:14   of the explanations is like problems [TS]

01:14:17   going on [TS]

01:14:18   I mean that certainly could be but i [TS]

01:14:20   tend to come down John side on this in [TS]

01:14:22   that it he it could be that its [TS]

01:14:27   management issues but we can't know I [TS]

01:14:29   mean especially someone at chris's level [TS]

01:14:31   and I mean that both in terms of org [TS]

01:14:33   chart and just brute intelligence after [TS]

01:14:36   a while it wouldn't surprise me just got [TS]

01:14:38   bored like comparatively a comparative [TS]

01:14:40   chris lattner I'm a friggin idiot and I [TS]

01:14:42   get bored after a few years at most jobs [TS]

01:14:45   I've ever had and so he was at Apple 11 [TS]

01:14:48   years it's been granted he worked on [TS]

01:14:50   different things i was there already has [TS]

01:14:51   a lot to be proud of but it could be [TS]

01:14:54   something as simple as boredom i still [TS]

01:14:55   come back to John said I think this was [TS]

01:14:57   some sort of disagreement with somebody [TS]

01:14:58   but i don't personally see such a direct [TS]

01:15:02   line from Latner and others leaving to [TS]

01:15:05   management problems and let's go back to [TS]

01:15:07   what you one of you said about the [TS]

01:15:08   iphone when you know everyone is getting [TS]

01:15:10   sucked into the iphone [TS]

01:15:12   it's beginning of that multi-year [TS]

01:15:14   process that probably looked kind of not [TS]

01:15:17   good and if we were around what we were [TS]

01:15:19   around but if we were a podcast then if [TS]

01:15:21   we were all all three of us APPL fans [TS]

01:15:23   then we would probably be saying well [TS]

01:15:25   the ipod really looks like crap compared [TS]

01:15:27   to a year ago I wonder what's going on [TS]

01:15:28   in there and as it turns out what was [TS]

01:15:30   going on in there was the iphone now is [TS]

01:15:32   project Titan or whatever it's called [TS]

01:15:34   today is that going to be the next [TS]

01:15:36   iphone who knows but it doesn't [TS]

01:15:39   necessarily mean that bad things are [TS]

01:15:42   happening if talent is getting sucked [TS]

01:15:44   into tighten it doesn't necessarily mean [TS]

01:15:46   that bad things are happening of talent [TS]

01:15:48   is leaving Apple all that being said we [TS]

01:15:52   are certainly getting enough data points [TS]

01:15:54   to point to something not being good [TS]

01:15:58   exactly not be management in may or may [TS]

01:15:59   not like I think I'm coming I'm beating [TS]

01:16:01   you up a little bit about it being [TS]

01:16:02   management but i agree with you Marco [TS]

01:16:04   that something looks amiss here I just [TS]

01:16:09   don't know what liliya and you know what [TS]

01:16:11   I say management you know i'm not saying [TS]

01:16:12   like this one particular person should [TS]

01:16:14   be fired whatever i'm saying like in the [TS]

01:16:16   sense of like it's a manager's job to [TS]

01:16:18   fix this and like manage management [TS]

01:16:20   displayable decisions might be [TS]

01:16:22   problematic so things like resource [TS]

01:16:25   allocation choosing what direction [TS]

01:16:26   things should go in personnel changes [TS]

01:16:28   like those are all those are those all [TS]

01:16:31   restaurant management and so if it [TS]

01:16:33   appears that Apple's having problems in [TS]

01:16:35   those kinds of areas over a decent [TS]

01:16:39   amount of time and and with enough of [TS]

01:16:41   these data points where like that looks [TS]

01:16:43   like a likely explanation that is up to [TS]

01:16:46   management to fix and so it's up to [TS]

01:16:48   either you know the the lower level [TS]

01:16:50   people who these various problems might [TS]

01:16:52   be under but ultimately it's up to temp [TS]

01:16:54   like that is the the CEOs job is to be [TS]

01:16:57   the ultimate manager like if things are [TS]

01:16:59   going wrong with management inside the [TS]

01:17:01   company the ultimate responsibility to [TS]

01:17:04   fix it eventually rests at the CEO and [TS]

01:17:07   that like again like I i do think there [TS]

01:17:11   might be other explanations for these [TS]

01:17:13   things maybe maybe everyone's doing a [TS]

01:17:15   great job but there sure are a lot of [TS]

01:17:18   cracks showing the foundation and at [TS]

01:17:20   some point I think we as Apple [TS]

01:17:22   commentators have to consider the [TS]

01:17:23   possibility that maybe things aren't [TS]

01:17:26   going so well yeah I don't think [TS]

01:17:28   anyone's debating but i don't think the [TS]

01:17:30   two of us are debating with you that [TS]

01:17:31   things may not be going well it's it's [TS]

01:17:33   it's such a big black box that it's so [TS]

01:17:35   hard to pontificate and arguably that's [TS]

01:17:38   what we're supposed to do but it's hard [TS]

01:17:40   to pontificate with any sort of accuracy [TS]

01:17:43   and reliability what's going on in there [TS]

01:17:44   but it's certainly interesting in and it [TS]

01:17:48   is even more interesting like one of you [TS]

01:17:50   guys said because everything we know is [TS]

01:17:52   that's there's an equivalent project [TS]

01:17:54   happening within Apple but I mean to use [TS]

01:17:58   a silly example so a couple of jobs ago [TS]

01:18:00   I was doing a whole bunch of sharepoint [TS]

01:18:02   development which if you've ever touched [TS]

01:18:03   sharepoint you'll know it's a miracle [TS]

01:18:06   I'm not bald right now from ripping my [TS]

01:18:07   hair out but anyone knows anything wrong [TS]

01:18:09   with that [TS]

01:18:10   not that there's anything wrong with [TS]

01:18:11   that of course but I had been doing it [TS]

01:18:14   for like four years and I begged and [TS]

01:18:17   begged and begged to do anything other [TS]

01:18:21   than checkpoint and eventually it was [TS]

01:18:23   made clear to me that that wasn't going [TS]

01:18:26   to happen because i was too valuable as [TS]

01:18:29   a sharepoint developer to move me off to [TS]

01:18:32   do something else and so I left now to [TS]

01:18:35   Marco's point that is to some degree [TS]

01:18:37   management problem yeah but is [TS]

01:18:40   absolutely a management problem but but [TS]

01:18:42   what I'm driving at is it isn't it isn't [TS]

01:18:45   necessarily indicative of a problem [TS]

01:18:46   throughout the entire company it's a [TS]

01:18:47   problem with how i was handled and it [TS]

01:18:51   and if either i was not valuable enough [TS]

01:18:53   to them to to to acquiesce and into do [TS]

01:18:58   what I wanted them to do or they just [TS]

01:19:00   didn't care or they didn't realize how [TS]

01:19:03   serious I was about how cranky i was you [TS]

01:19:05   know there's any number of reasons but [TS]

01:19:06   the more the story is i eventually left [TS]

01:19:08   because I couldn't do the thing I wanted [TS]

01:19:10   to do and and I think John it said [TS]

01:19:12   Ladner's valuable to apple doing the [TS]

01:19:16   crazy compiler nerdery that he does at [TS]

01:19:20   least that's the way it seems right he's [TS]

01:19:22   also in charge of a hundred some people [TS]

01:19:24   so maybe all of us are reading this [TS]

01:19:26   wrong maybe he's just tired of being a [TS]

01:19:27   manager just wants to swing coat again [TS]

01:19:29   now the vp it sounds to me like he's [TS]

01:19:31   probably be a manager again but you get [TS]

01:19:32   what that something is still a manager [TS]

01:19:33   and he was still writing code [TS]

01:19:35   people like you go look at the committee [TS]

01:19:37   it's not like he was you know he didn't [TS]

01:19:38   give up writing code [TS]

01:19:40   no but you see what I'm driving at those [TS]

01:19:42   so i guess all I'm saying is there are [TS]

01:19:44   lots of different explanations some of [TS]

01:19:46   your management some of which are not at [TS]

01:19:48   all are feasible but may or may not be [TS]

01:19:52   indicative of a fundamental problem that [TS]

01:19:54   Apple is really agree with you Marco [TS]

01:19:56   Marco that I still agree with you that [TS]

01:19:58   there's a possibility that something is [TS]

01:20:00   not good and it certainly seems that way [TS]

01:20:03   but man it's hard for us to tell when [TS]

01:20:06   and ultimately we don't need to tell [TS]

01:20:08   like again like it we we can't know [TS]

01:20:11   unless they both talk like with which I [TS]

01:20:15   can't imagine we can't know what the [TS]

01:20:18   cause here was and what it means like [TS]

01:20:20   again this one incident this one person [TS]

01:20:23   leaving is not itself a massive deal [TS]

01:20:26   because we because if we don't know [TS]

01:20:28   these things right [TS]

01:20:29   it might be massively we can't say [TS]

01:20:31   because we don't know I'm just talking [TS]

01:20:34   about like the the overall pattern like [TS]

01:20:36   the the trend of the graphic you know [TS]

01:20:38   that the way things are going it just [TS]

01:20:40   seems like we're getting increasingly [TS]

01:20:42   more problems where the explanation [TS]

01:20:46   could be something wrong and it might [TS]

01:20:49   not be for any one of those problems [TS]

01:20:51   it might not be that but there Charlotte [TS]

01:20:54   building up basically I I don't know how [TS]

01:20:57   anybody could could be a really big [TS]

01:20:59   apple fan and look at the way things are [TS]

01:21:02   right now and not be a little bit [TS]

01:21:04   worried [TS]

01:21:05   yeah I think that's fair don't care [TS]

01:21:07   about the mac i'm not quite sure why [TS]

01:21:08   you'd be that worried because I still [TS]

01:21:10   think iphones and ipads are great [TS]

01:21:12   the ipad is the best it's ever been the [TS]

01:21:13   iphone is arguably the best ever been if [TS]

01:21:15   you don't mind the case look the same [TS]

01:21:17   three years in a row so you don't care [TS]

01:21:18   about the mac i think apple still doing [TS]

01:21:21   pretty well I mean like but we're [TS]

01:21:22   getting back to what i was saying before [TS]

01:21:23   about the state of the internals of [TS]

01:21:26   Apple and the the parts that we actually [TS]

01:21:28   do know about because enough time has [TS]

01:21:29   passed like think of when you know Tony [TS]

01:21:33   Fadell father of the iphone apparently [TS]

01:21:34   didn't get along with a lot of people [TS]

01:21:35   inside apple and eventually got booted [TS]

01:21:38   out and Scott Forstall wasn't was he not [TS]

01:21:40   get along with you [TS]

01:21:41   me I everybody inside of me but then [TS]

01:21:43   Steve liked him liked it was it was a [TS]

01:21:45   freaking mess in there and people were [TS]

01:21:46   leaving and getting kicked out it's like [TS]

01:21:48   if he stays that i'm not going to stay [TS]

01:21:49   and they have to make hard choices [TS]

01:21:50   between two people who arguably you know [TS]

01:21:52   how do you kick out the guy who you know [TS]

01:21:54   was the the origins of the ipod projects [TS]

01:21:58   like well but he disagrees with other [TS]

01:21:59   person is even more important that [TS]

01:22:00   companies like what can you do like [TS]

01:22:02   they're doing the best they can and yet [TS]

01:22:03   during that time the company was [TS]

01:22:05   producing the iphone for crying out loud [TS]

01:22:07   so you know good old dead cattle [TS]

01:22:09   society's problems or you know or Bob [TS]

01:22:11   Mansfield and him leaving and coming [TS]

01:22:13   back like there's always been a lot of [TS]

01:22:15   drama the visible top levels of the [TS]

01:22:17   things but nobody cares when you're [TS]

01:22:18   releasing the iphone but go a few years [TS]

01:22:20   and don't have an iphone like it and [TS]

01:22:22   then all of a sudden now we're going to [TS]

01:22:23   look at your all your high level [TS]

01:22:25   departures and wring our hands about [TS]

01:22:26   them and you know i'm not i'm not saying [TS]

01:22:29   that I don't endorse the political [TS]

01:22:31   infighting that and and personality [TS]

01:22:33   disagreements among these you know [TS]

01:22:36   multi-millionaire c-level executives [TS]

01:22:38   like that's you know whatever the [TS]

01:22:39   Silicon Valley sport that i'm not really [TS]

01:22:42   interested in engaging in but the proof [TS]

01:22:44   is in the pudding [TS]

01:22:45   you can have an apparently personally [TS]

01:22:48   dysfunctional upper ranks of apple and [TS]

01:22:50   produce great products and I'm assuming [TS]

01:22:52   you could have everybody getting along [TS]

01:22:54   but the company going down the tubes so [TS]

01:22:56   I'm not that's why I'm i'm hesitant to [TS]

01:22:59   connect those two things both because i [TS]

01:23:01   have no visibility into it and then and [TS]

01:23:02   also because i make maybe it's not even [TS]

01:23:04   connected [TS]

01:23:05   maybe you have the most dysfunctional [TS]

01:23:06   group of children fighting with each [TS]

01:23:09   other and produce a world shattering [TS]

01:23:11   product at the same time I mean sure [TS]

01:23:12   Steve Jobs certainly wasn't the most you [TS]

01:23:15   know pleasant person to get along with [TS]

01:23:17   and they don't have good work under him [TS]

01:23:18   to so fair enough beer sponsor tonight [TS]

01:23:23   by betterment go to betterment calm / [TS]

01:23:25   ATP betterment investing made better it [TS]

01:23:29   is never too early or too late to start [TS]

01:23:32   saving for retirement or other financial [TS]

01:23:35   goals [TS]

01:23:36   nobody has ever said I wish I started [TS]

01:23:38   investing later in life [TS]

01:23:40   no you gotta start now because these [TS]

01:23:42   things add up over time and if you're [TS]

01:23:44   going to invest your money it is much [TS]

01:23:47   more wise to do it in a way that does [TS]

01:23:49   not charge you a lot of fees because all [TS]

01:23:52   those fees also add up over time [TS]

01:23:53   I'm so if you can get something with [TS]

01:23:55   very very low fees upfront over the [TS]

01:23:57   course of the rest of your life that's [TS]

01:23:59   going to add up to a massive difference [TS]

01:24:00   in what you're actually saving so [TS]

01:24:03   betterment is the largest independent [TS]

01:24:05   automated investing service out there [TS]

01:24:06   managing more than five and a half [TS]

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01:24:19   financial advisors use with clients who [TS]

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01:24:27   fees that traditional financial services [TS]

01:24:29   would charge for similar types of [TS]

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01:24:33   portfolio generates is automatically [TS]

01:24:35   reinvested with their algorithms so [TS]

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01:24:39   work in your portfolio is always [TS]

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01:24:48   visit betterment calm / ATP that's [TS]

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01:24:53   investing made better [TS]

01:24:55   ah so the only thing that I still think [TS]

01:25:00   is worth discussing here is what does [TS]

01:25:02   this mean for swift one of us is really [TS]

01:25:05   enthusiastic about spinach to end and [TS]

01:25:08   i'm curious how what this means i mean [TS]

01:25:10   it sounds like if you were to read if [TS]

01:25:13   you were to take Christmas mailing list [TS]

01:25:15   post and mailing it at face value it [TS]

01:25:17   sounds like Ted chronic has been doing [TS]

01:25:18   all the work anyway [TS]

01:25:20   now if I were chris and i wanted to [TS]

01:25:22   smooth transition and I wanted to be a [TS]

01:25:24   nice guy I would give all the credit to [TS]

01:25:26   whoever is taking over it was presumably [TS]

01:25:29   some attitude to that and unfortunately [TS]

01:25:31   while i do right Swift everyday I don't [TS]

01:25:33   follow the the ins and outs day-to-day [TS]

01:25:37   you know the stuff that goes on so I do [TS]

01:25:39   i personally don't have a good feel for [TS]

01:25:42   how much of this is true or false but I [TS]

01:25:44   mean this is that the latter is the [TS]

01:25:46   daddy what was what they call it the [TS]

01:25:48   Python guy that has a really funny [TS]

01:25:49   nickname [TS]

01:25:50   yeah it's a really funny nickname anyway [TS]

01:25:52   John you should know this python is like [TS]

01:25:54   pearl right I don't follow python we do [TS]

01:25:56   I don't know what windows nickname is [TS]

01:25:57   it's like supreme ruler it's like [TS]

01:25:59   something like that better for life [TS]

01:26:02   yeah maybe that [TS]

01:26:03   it maybe that's it anyway so the latter [TS]

01:26:05   is sort of the benevolent benevolent [TS]

01:26:08   dictator for life and now what we get we [TS]

01:26:12   can debate whether his full-time job at [TS]

01:26:14   apple was was working on swift I mean [TS]

01:26:17   given that he had a hundred people are [TS]

01:26:19   under him and from his own website in [TS]

01:26:21   additional languages Swift and objective [TS]

01:26:22   c compilers low-level tools that took on [TS]

01:26:25   responsibility for the xcode ide [TS]

01:26:26   instruments performance analysis tool [TS]

01:26:27   Apple java releases in a variety of [TS]

01:26:29   internal tools [TS]

01:26:30   it doesn't sound like Ladner's full-time [TS]

01:26:32   job with Swift anyway but how much time [TS]

01:26:36   is he really going to have to dedicate [TS]

01:26:38   to it if he's working full-time at Tesla [TS]

01:26:40   is that a problem is that just a change [TS]

01:26:45   I mean it seems like he's let this this [TS]

01:26:47   beautiful bird fly on its own in and [TS]

01:26:50   he's you let go of the leash but I don't [TS]

01:26:53   know it's it's slightly alarming right [TS]

01:26:55   it's it's it's a change no matter how [TS]

01:26:56   you slice it all hehe was not benevolent [TS]

01:26:59   dictator for life and therefore life i'm [TS]

01:27:01   familiar with this concept because it [TS]

01:27:02   was adopted by the Pearl community as [TS]

01:27:03   well and it was bestowed on Larry wall [TS]

01:27:05   as an interesting way for nerds to to [TS]

01:27:11   deal with you know to deal with each [TS]

01:27:14   other and consensus-building and [TS]

01:27:15   everything to have one trusted person [TS]

01:27:18   who everyone agrees both has a a [TS]

01:27:23   credible claim to dictatorship like they [TS]

01:27:26   invented language in the case of Larry [TS]

01:27:27   walls like you know what guys going to [TS]

01:27:29   be in charge of parts going to be very [TS]

01:27:31   well alright and also has proven to be [TS]

01:27:33   like level-headed and reasonable [TS]

01:27:36   I you know and like that everyone agrees [TS]

01:27:38   like you may agree with Larry wall or [TS]

01:27:40   disagree with them but we think is a [TS]

01:27:42   reasonable person so you you bless them [TS]

01:27:43   as benevolent dictator for life and you [TS]

01:27:45   have an open-source process where [TS]

01:27:46   everyone argues with each other and [TS]

01:27:48   tries to come to some consensus but [TS]

01:27:49   every once in a while there's some big [TS]

01:27:51   disagreement about some big important [TS]

01:27:53   thing and has to go to you know the [TS]

01:27:56   ultimate tiebreaker and you defer [TS]

01:27:57   everyone agrees that we all agree we're [TS]

01:27:59   going to defer to the benevolent [TS]

01:28:01   dictator for life and that person makes [TS]

01:28:03   the call and hopefully that rarely [TS]

01:28:05   happens in most of the time the open [TS]

01:28:06   source community works that among [TS]

01:28:07   themselves but you have this one person [TS]

01:28:09   is the backstop as the tiebreaker as the [TS]

01:28:11   one that everyone agrees is the [TS]

01:28:13   authority and [TS]

01:28:14   has a rightful claim to make the [TS]

01:28:16   decision but and that person part of [TS]

01:28:18   England Evelyn is they don't use that [TS]

01:28:20   Pat they don't use that power they don't [TS]

01:28:22   use it to override the people they wait [TS]

01:28:24   to be called upon most of the time they [TS]

01:28:25   defer to the community when this [TS]

01:28:27   consensus like that's the benevolent [TS]

01:28:29   part is really important this is by the [TS]

01:28:30   way a terrible system for government [TS]

01:28:32   because as we all know that power [TS]

01:28:33   corrupts absolutely [TS]

01:28:35   and you should not do this but an [TS]

01:28:36   open-source projects and these specific [TS]

01:28:38   cases with these specific people who are [TS]

01:28:39   really nice nerds like I assume we do is [TS]

01:28:41   a little areas it has worked out but [TS]

01:28:44   that's not what Chris not there is in [TS]

01:28:46   the Swift open source community it's [TS]

01:28:48   much more democratic process now here's [TS]

01:28:50   the twist [TS]

01:28:51   he's kind of a de facto he was kind of a [TS]

01:28:56   de facto benevolent dictator four terms [TS]

01:28:59   of Employment and apple because the boss [TS]

01:29:02   of the most powerful contributors to the [TS]

01:29:05   code so he was their boss in the company [TS]

01:29:07   which is a powerful position right they [TS]

01:29:09   kind of had to do what he said because [TS]

01:29:10   he was their boss and they were working [TS]

01:29:13   on swift on an Apple employee time like [TS]

01:29:15   not just in their free time as their [TS]

01:29:16   hobby or whatever um and he would be [TS]

01:29:20   leading the meetings discussing the [TS]

01:29:22   community proposals for the Swift [TS]

01:29:24   language and the impression from the [TS]

01:29:25   outside of leases that Chris would [TS]

01:29:27   deliver the result of those meetings we [TS]

01:29:29   had a meeting about this proposal this [TS]

01:29:30   is a community proposal the swift [TS]

01:29:32   resolution processes you propose and [TS]

01:29:34   then the Swift core team or whatever the [TS]

01:29:36   coal difficult this probably some name [TS]

01:29:37   for this you know that like the [TS]

01:29:38   governance process we decide whether [TS]

01:29:40   your pros will be adopted or not and [TS]

01:29:42   then Chris usually especially the [TS]

01:29:44   beginning or right to let's say the core [TS]

01:29:46   team met here is here are comments here [TS]

01:29:48   is the the conclusion we made the [TS]

01:29:50   problem with that is the core team had a [TS]

01:29:52   lot of Apple employees on and Christmas [TS]

01:29:54   that boss so even though he was not [TS]

01:29:56   anointed as the benevolent dictator for [TS]

01:29:59   life [TS]

01:29:59   it seemed like he had a that's like he [TS]

01:30:03   had a larger influence on decisions [TS]

01:30:06   related to the Swift language than any [TS]

01:30:08   other single person which I don't think [TS]

01:30:10   anyone would argue it doesn't mean he [TS]

01:30:11   was like he was in charge of everything [TS]

01:30:12   made a decision far from it like he [TS]

01:30:14   mostly like a good benevolent dictator [TS]

01:30:15   might defer to the community and in fact [TS]

01:30:18   the process did it does not have him in [TS]

01:30:21   an anointed position of controlling [TS]

01:30:22   everything which means as he leaves [TS]

01:30:24   Apple I think he's going to have [TS]

01:30:26   less control over the evolution of Swift [TS]

01:30:28   than he did before but in actuality he [TS]

01:30:30   was never benevolent dictator for life [TS]

01:30:32   that's not house with open-source effort [TS]

01:30:34   looks and so to get back to kc question [TS]

01:30:35   what does this mean for swift I think [TS]

01:30:38   Swift will be fine it may end up going [TS]

01:30:40   in a different direction that would have [TS]

01:30:42   gone in had Chris stated Apple but [TS]

01:30:44   that's not necessarily a worse direction [TS]

01:30:46   and there are so many smart good people [TS]

01:30:50   working on swift both inside and outside [TS]

01:30:52   of Apple that I you know and especially [TS]

01:30:54   with the force of Apple behind it apple [TS]

01:30:56   remains dedicated Swift as they seem to [TS]

01:30:58   be over these past many years it will be [TS]

01:31:01   perfectly fine the only change will be [TS]

01:31:03   is that it may end up going slightly [TS]

01:31:05   different directions than it would have [TS]

01:31:06   gone a Christmas there but who's to say [TS]

01:31:08   whether that's good or bad [TS]

01:31:10   so what is he doing for tests i mean i [TS]

01:31:12   understand what it said on the 10 that [TS]

01:31:14   he's going to be was a vp of autopilot [TS]

01:31:16   software but while at nur like what what [TS]

01:31:20   do you think he brings he uniquely [TS]

01:31:22   brings to the table [TS]

01:31:24   well I think that's pretty easy like if [TS]

01:31:26   you look at his resume like he came the [TS]

01:31:28   Apple as this guy who started this you [TS]

01:31:29   know c++ compiler building tool kit [TS]

01:31:31   right and took that into a company that [TS]

01:31:35   already had an entire ID and to change [TS]

01:31:38   for developing for their operating [TS]

01:31:40   system and slowly but surely replace [TS]

01:31:43   their compiler from the bottom up first [TS]

01:31:45   by cloning and then replacing an [TS]

01:31:46   entirely and then you know baidu by [TS]

01:31:49   proving the worth of his little compiler [TS]

01:31:51   thing I can use Milo compiled tools to [TS]

01:31:53   help you in this area of the company i [TS]

01:31:54   can use it to compile shaders in a [TS]

01:31:56   platform agnostic format [TS]

01:31:59   I can you know rip out the guts of the [TS]

01:32:02   backend of GCC and replace it with this [TS]

01:32:04   thing and i can replace all GCC with my [TS]

01:32:06   own compiler and then guess what I've [TS]

01:32:07   been looking at your language is kind of [TS]

01:32:09   crap i can replace that to that type of [TS]

01:32:12   being able to come into an organization [TS]

01:32:14   and eventually solve you know huge [TS]

01:32:19   organization community ecosystem [TS]

01:32:21   spanning problems is you know that [TS]

01:32:24   that's a hell of a resume that's unique [TS]

01:32:26   ability so you're going to drop this [TS]

01:32:27   person into this project let you know in [TS]

01:32:29   some respects Tesla's so much simpler [TS]

01:32:32   and more narrow than apple because Apple [TS]

01:32:35   has so many stakeholders and so many [TS]

01:32:37   complicated things and you know software [TS]

01:32:38   development ecosystem [TS]

01:32:39   test just got cars at this point I mean [TS]

01:32:41   you know at least that's all anybody's [TS]

01:32:42   going to be involved in his own solar [TS]

01:32:44   roofs or whatever right there cars and [TS]

01:32:47   he's a specific aspect of the ground not [TS]

01:32:48   all aspects of the cars just a [TS]

01:32:50   self-driving part which again is huge [TS]

01:32:52   problem but if anyone can get dropped [TS]

01:32:54   into that situation and figure out how [TS]

01:32:56   to make a team of people successful at [TS]

01:32:58   accomplishing the goals put for them you [TS]

01:33:01   know he's proven he can do that in the [TS]

01:33:02   context of a big important company with [TS]

01:33:04   millions of customers now how much of [TS]

01:33:06   that knowledge that experience [TS]

01:33:08   translates to cars [TS]

01:33:09   I don't really know but if you know if [TS]

01:33:13   the problem the team is currently having [TS]

01:33:15   had anything to do with two languages [TS]

01:33:17   compilers or anything he has any [TS]

01:33:18   familiarity with pecan hit the ground [TS]

01:33:20   running and even if it doesn't he's [TS]

01:33:22   smart and he's proven he can navigate [TS]

01:33:24   large organizations and get things done [TS]

01:33:26   so you know I think I feel like it's a [TS]

01:33:28   no-brainer hired and anybody who wants [TS]

01:33:30   who has a some some portion of their [TS]

01:33:32   product and involves software and need [TS]

01:33:35   someone to lead that effort because he's [TS]

01:33:38   pretty sure you can do that you know [TS]

01:33:39   imagine if Tesla wanted to have a single [TS]

01:33:43   language that could go from you know [TS]

01:33:45   embedded systems all the way up to [TS]

01:33:47   server-side programming i want you if [TS]

01:33:49   only there was a man who edit or woman [TS]

01:33:52   who had invented such a thing that would [TS]

01:33:55   be so convenient to have hired i'm not [TS]

01:33:57   entirely sure he'll be using Swift the [TS]

01:33:59   desolate maybe we will maybe we won't [TS]

01:34:01   like you know that item I don't know the [TS]

01:34:03   what the software stuff looks like for [TS]

01:34:05   self-driving car tech at this point [TS]

01:34:07   neither do i 1 and i think maybe that's [TS]

01:34:09   part of why he would be so valuable to [TS]

01:34:12   them is if you look at like the kinds of [TS]

01:34:15   like most programmers you know people [TS]

01:34:17   like me like the the work I do it's it's [TS]

01:34:20   almost it's almost unimportant whether i [TS]

01:34:23   get my code correct or not like it's [TS]

01:34:26   like doesn't work most of the time yes [TS]

01:34:28   okay good enough and I think that [TS]

01:34:30   applies to almost every working [TS]

01:34:32   programmer like the very few programmers [TS]

01:34:34   have like really need to get things [TS]

01:34:36   correct on of like all the time or it [TS]

01:34:39   really matters and if you look at you [TS]

01:34:42   know the the job of autopilot software [TS]

01:34:44   this is a really big deal that people's [TS]

01:34:46   lives are at stake [TS]

01:34:48   that-that-that's like on the order of [TS]

01:34:50   space shuttle software of like [TS]

01:34:52   this really has to be correct and not [TS]

01:34:55   only does a compiler author have [TS]

01:34:58   similarly high requirements right like [TS]

01:35:01   because compilers really have to be [TS]

01:35:03   correctly you can't have a bug in a [TS]

01:35:06   compiler like that that's a really bad [TS]

01:35:07   thing for a lot of people like that [TS]

01:35:09   really has to be so not only not only [TS]

01:35:10   that but chris is also proved himself to [TS]

01:35:15   be really good at making tools to tell [TS]

01:35:17   whether your code is correct to do [TS]

01:35:19   things like static animal and analysis [TS]

01:35:21   and things like that that was all him to [TS]

01:35:23   write or at least rooted in his stuff [TS]

01:35:25   yeah that was all of Amtech enabling [TS]

01:35:27   those features right so like that's if [TS]

01:35:29   you look at like the the specific needs [TS]

01:35:32   of autopilot software that needs [TS]

01:35:33   somebody leading it who is both really [TS]

01:35:36   good at writing correct code and also [TS]

01:35:39   able to improve the correctness of the [TS]

01:35:42   code of the rest of the organization [TS]

01:35:42   this interesting point yeah the only [TS]

01:35:45   thing that gives me pause here is that [TS]

01:35:46   like everything he did Apple a were or [TS]

01:35:51   things that if you were to present the [TS]

01:35:53   the possibility of doing them to anybody [TS]

01:35:56   else you know versed in the art as the [TS]

01:35:59   legalese saying going [TS]

01:36:01   patent law they're like yeah that's a [TS]

01:36:03   possible that it's possible to do that [TS]

01:36:04   right [TS]

01:36:05   self-driving cars are still in the realm [TS]

01:36:07   of nobody has done it yet [TS]

01:36:09   like we've come close we're getting [TS]

01:36:10   better we're doing this but like it's [TS]

01:36:13   not a straightforward thing it's not [TS]

01:36:14   even clear what the correct approaches [TS]

01:36:16   and there was a good YouTube video so [TS]

01:36:18   today with someone gave a presentation [TS]

01:36:19   all the different problems self-driving [TS]

01:36:21   cars and different approaches and you [TS]

01:36:23   know what one of the ones being promoted [TS]

01:36:25   by and video of all companies because [TS]

01:36:26   they sell cheap used to do is like the [TS]

01:36:28   neural net type of thing where instead [TS]

01:36:29   of the Tesla which seems more [TS]

01:36:32   straightforward and programmatic instead [TS]

01:36:34   you get this you know this learning [TS]

01:36:37   network that you train right and you [TS]

01:36:40   don't even you're not even really [TS]

01:36:41   programming it you're just kind of [TS]

01:36:42   treating it like a little a little [TS]

01:36:43   living thing and you don't even know how [TS]

01:36:45   it works internally you just know what [TS]

01:36:46   the results are and you can trade in the [TS]

01:36:49   real world and in simulations or [TS]

01:36:50   whatever like versus the approach of [TS]

01:36:52   having a rule based approach where it's [TS]

01:36:54   a lot of sensors lots of rules and lots [TS]

01:36:56   of intelligence and and systems [TS]

01:36:58   conversing with each other and come to [TS]

01:37:00   consensus but inexplicable way right and [TS]

01:37:03   that's more of the test approach right [TS]

01:37:04   now which I think Chris is [TS]

01:37:06   you know better suited to manage a [TS]

01:37:08   project like that because it fits more [TS]

01:37:10   with his other things he's not as far as [TS]

01:37:12   i know an academic reversed on machine [TS]

01:37:14   learning and neural networks and stuff [TS]

01:37:16   right so that's a good fit but if you [TS]

01:37:19   were to go to somebody and say hey can [TS]

01:37:20   you take that approach and build [TS]

01:37:23   self-driving software that gets good [TS]

01:37:24   enough that you can remove the steering [TS]

01:37:25   wheel from cars [TS]

01:37:26   nobody knows because nobody's done it [TS]

01:37:28   right and and that is that's most [TS]

01:37:30   exciting it's exciting challenge right [TS]

01:37:32   but also it's a big question mark [TS]

01:37:35   I mean and in addition to the ? like hey [TS]

01:37:37   will test the still be in business [TS]

01:37:39   well they run out of money i will [TS]

01:37:40   somebody buy them because there's one [TS]

01:37:42   thing you have to worry about apple at [TS]

01:37:43   least in the short term is will i will [TS]

01:37:45   they be able to pay my paycheck answer [TS]

01:37:47   yes [TS]

01:37:48   Tesla on the other hand has not actually [TS]

01:37:49   been making money and I'm not sure when [TS]

01:37:52   the prospect of them making money is and [TS]

01:37:54   I'm not sure whether they'll be bought [TS]

01:37:56   or whatever but if you're looking for [TS]

01:37:57   you know it's exciting and many levels [TS]

01:37:59   you're looking for a challenge [TS]

01:38:00   this is definitely a challenge i'm just [TS]

01:38:01   not entirely sure that Chris has any [TS]

01:38:05   more of a chance of solving this problem [TS]

01:38:06   like especially if the correct approach [TS]

01:38:09   turns out to be like the neuron that [TS]

01:38:10   thing and that's not the approach that [TS]

01:38:11   was taking this he's not going to do it [TS]

01:38:15   and someone else is but if it is the [TS]

01:38:17   right approach and it can be done [TS]

01:38:19   I guess he's got a puncher's chance [TS]

01:38:20   right it's just it's a much bigger ? [TS]

01:38:24   then can you figure out how to fix [TS]

01:38:27   apples compiler infrastructure and [TS]

01:38:29   making new language that will be [TS]

01:38:30   backward compatible with Objective C and [TS]

01:38:32   also work with you know like if he did a [TS]

01:38:34   great job and that is a tremendously [TS]

01:38:36   hard problem but it is a thing that has [TS]

01:38:38   been done before in different forms vs [TS]

01:38:40   self-driving cars which is this bridge [TS]

01:38:42   is big you know why this guy ? at this [TS]

01:38:45   point that's 13 sponsor this week [TS]

01:38:48   hello fresh betterment and square space [TS]

01:38:50   and we will see you next week [TS]

01:38:54   now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

01:38:58   mean to be in because it was accidental [TS]

01:39:02   it was accidental John research Marco [TS]

01:39:08   and Casey would let him because it was [TS]

01:39:11   accidentally was accidental and you can [TS]

01:39:16   find the show know today [TS]

01:39:18   pvp.net and if your sweater follow them [TS]

01:39:26   yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

01:39:31   co-pay rm20 Marco Arment our DC at [TS]

01:39:40   Syracuse [TS]

01:39:50   what [TS]

01:39:53   how is John using Swift yet why the hell [TS]

01:39:57   would II because he basically caused it [TS]

01:39:59   to exist go that far [TS]

01:40:04   seriously how are you not using it well [TS]

01:40:06   I don't have I would use it if I had [TS]

01:40:08   occasion to use it but i don't i don't [TS]

01:40:09   have occasion to use it at work and I [TS]

01:40:11   don't have time for anything home boys [TS]

01:40:13   podcast and i just added support for a [TS]

01:40:17   certain feature that marker was aware of [TS]

01:40:18   to my blog recently but my blog is not [TS]

01:40:21   written in Swift why not [TS]

01:40:22   so it didn't exist when I made it and I [TS]

01:40:24   haven't touched it since then its Paula [TS]

01:40:26   craft but apparently you touched it [TS]

01:40:27   somehow to add this feature i'll yeah [TS]

01:40:30   was not that big it would be like the [TS]

01:40:31   programmer thing to do to spend more [TS]

01:40:33   time on the engine then on writing posts [TS]

01:40:35   and i think i still have achieved that [TS]

01:40:37   goal because I rights so few posts but [TS]

01:40:39   that's exactly the point I know it [TS]

01:40:42   anyway like I i'm at this point I'm such [TS]

01:40:45   a high language dilettante the [TS]

01:40:46   high-level language dilettante that I [TS]

01:40:48   just can't bear to deal with anything [TS]

01:40:49   even yeah I know Swift is not you know [TS]

01:40:52   this will not down in the mark but right [TS]

01:40:53   like what I said you'll owe for you [TS]

01:40:55   within Swift it's got unsafe stuff in [TS]

01:40:57   there you know you don't have to use it [TS]

01:40:59   for God's I know but sometimes you do [TS]

01:41:01   depending what frame which you want to [TS]

01:41:02   use with it and oh yeah and and types [TS]

01:41:05   and like any other high-level thinking [TS]

01:41:07   about ya know we're all so much about [TS]

01:41:09   types and I you know any moment of my [TS]

01:41:13   life i spend wrangling a type system i [TS]

01:41:15   feel like it's a wasted moment cuz im so [TS]

01:41:16   just not doing it [TS]

01:41:17   that's a feature not about John wait so [TS]

01:41:20   hold on I know you're using using perl i [TS]

01:41:22   assume is a use your Holy Grail here [TS]

01:41:24   no it is not a Holy Grail but I was 18 [TS]

01:41:26   javascript is this is the same way where [TS]

01:41:28   you have to worry less about types [TS]

01:41:30   well my god obviously not working and [TS]

01:41:33   someone not sure oh my god okay last [TS]

01:41:35   sentence which are John as a homicide [TS]

01:41:38   yeah like I like JavaScript and even i [TS]

01:41:41   will tell you that you that appealing to [TS]

01:41:43   Authority with javascript was not the [TS]

01:41:45   right now is not appealing sorry [TS]

01:41:46   everything is like a language that i use [TS]

01:41:48   it has the same characters 16 that you [TS]

01:41:50   don't have to type everything ok people [TS]

01:41:52   so we go back to the earlier complaint [TS]

01:41:54   like about unsafe things like you're [TS]

01:41:56   using perl probably just calling out to [TS]

01:41:59   libraries written in C half the time [TS]

01:42:01   like it all work [TS]

01:42:02   oh yeah okay [TS]

01:42:04   right so like time-tested not modified [TS]

01:42:07   for the past 15 years [TS]

01:42:09   yeah that's that's yeah okay yeah the [TS]

01:42:13   great thing about using language like [TS]

01:42:14   that though by the way as I've said many [TS]

01:42:15   times is what segfaults is not your [TS]

01:42:18   fault that is that should be a slogan on [TS]

01:42:20   you know if part was still popular [TS]

01:42:22   language people put up all like fault [TS]

01:42:24   it's not your fault [TS]

01:42:25   whereas when you get sick volts Markin [TS]

01:42:27   your fault but you do that you do that [TS]

01:42:29   in Pearl it's like no I couldn't have [TS]

01:42:31   done anything to cause that cuz i'm [TS]

01:42:33   writing pearl it's some stupid C [TS]

01:42:34   programmers problem and you're right I [TS]

01:42:37   don't get segfaults I i get like you [TS]

01:42:39   know uncaught exceptions and things I [TS]

01:42:42   know everyone's got a different name you [TS]

01:42:43   know no longer exceptions in Java is [TS]

01:42:45   well no Marco doesn't have that problem [TS]

01:42:47   i do but it's all within the Swift [TS]

01:42:49   compiler psych faulting left-hander mark [TS]

01:42:52   of the same for compilers those can have [TS]

01:42:54   bugs i can feel everyone on the Swift [TS]

01:42:56   mailing list saying oh yeah compilers [TS]

01:42:57   never have bugs then yeah i mean i was [TS]

01:42:59   referring more to like the generated [TS]

01:43:01   code but I i know that i know about that [TS]

01:43:04   kind of thing [TS]

01:43:06   yeah but you're right the standards the [TS]

01:43:07   standards higher which is why when there [TS]

01:43:09   is but he's not worthy button in the [TS]

01:43:10   world of Swift's compiler we are still [TS]

01:43:12   definitely in the realm of regularly [TS]

01:43:14   having actual bugs in the compiler all [TS]

01:43:17   those are my people at Apple working on [TS]

01:43:18   this with compiling whenever anything to [TS]

01:43:20   do but rest assured that they do well [TS]

01:43:22   let me tell you type inference is [TS]

01:43:23   magical until it stops working and then [TS]

01:43:24   it's the worst ya worry about types that [TS]

01:43:29   the correct argument against javascript [TS]

01:43:33   four types is all their inane coercions [TS]

01:43:36   that like they made a few bad choices [TS]

01:43:38   with coercion and truth value minus and [TS]

01:43:40   it's why I ever has all the religion [TS]

01:43:42   about triple equals because they just [TS]

01:43:43   want to avoid any of that stuff because [TS]

01:43:45   it behaves in ways that people don't [TS]

01:43:47   agree with weather like that's what [TS]

01:43:48   drives me nuts like people have written [TS]

01:43:50   off PHP entirely for exactly that kind [TS]

01:43:54   of thing and now they're all using [TS]

01:43:55   javascript like it has the same problems [TS]

01:43:57   like what that is but they're not using [TS]

01:43:59   javascript cuz they love it you know why [TS]

01:44:00   they're using javascript they have no [TS]

01:44:02   choice because it's in every freakin [TS]

01:44:03   browser to use node they have a choice [TS]

01:44:05   but now they don't because the reason [TS]

01:44:07   they're using the reason they're using [TS]

01:44:08   this JavaScript on the server side is [TS]

01:44:10   because using a client-side and when you [TS]

01:44:12   can share code because the client-side [TS]

01:44:13   and server-side it is a way and also [TS]

01:44:15   because notice actually are [TS]

01:44:17   in a bowl way to do basic stuff service [TS]

01:44:19   I'd you know as you as compared to the [TS]

01:44:21   other languages that offer some liquid [TS]

01:44:23   but totally it's like JavaScript wins [TS]

01:44:25   not because anybody loves it but because [TS]

01:44:26   you gotta use it as in the friggin [TS]

01:44:28   browser [TS]

01:44:29   I mean I chose node willingly I could [TS]

01:44:31   have done Ruby when i wrote a camel and [TS]

01:44:33   I just want to be slower is faster and [TS]

01:44:36   it wouldn't it never would have scaled [TS]

01:44:38   for those millions and millions i get [TS]

01:44:40   out today but no I chose node because i [TS]

01:44:43   was familiar with javascript and I mean [TS]

01:44:45   I don't yeah whatever your JavaScript [TS]

01:44:47   because of the web for sure exactly [TS]

01:44:49   what's going down oh but i but i don't i [TS]

01:44:52   don't have jquery on 99% of the blog [TS]

01:44:54   post I i right in fact I don't even have [TS]

01:44:56   it on the standard template because i [TS]

01:44:58   use its around but you know the language [TS]

01:45:00   and you know little bits of the standard [TS]

01:45:02   library and you know kind of how the [TS]

01:45:04   regular expression things work and stem [TS]

01:45:06   javascript is a mess [TS]

01:45:08   have you done any yes sex stuff in [TS]

01:45:10   JavaScript where they tried to make it [TS]

01:45:12   less of a mess now in or if I touch like [TS]

01:45:14   typescript CoffeeScript region usually [TS]

01:45:16   if you next time you do something in [TS]

01:45:18   note upgrade to reasonably recent [TS]

01:45:21   version of note into the whole thing the [TS]

01:45:22   SX and see how you feel about it [TS]

01:45:24   let's be honest what I really want to [TS]

01:45:26   convert camel from from static ish to [TS]

01:45:31   full full bore static like you two [TS]

01:45:34   knuckleheads do and i started i have a [TS]

01:45:37   branch with it actually want to move [TS]

01:45:38   away from that but get really yeah [TS]

01:45:41   whatever it is that you know till I did [TS]

01:45:43   two dynamic generation and basically you [TS]

01:45:45   know I have some experience with web [TS]

01:45:47   scalability basically the the language [TS]

01:45:52   speed is never your problem if that's [TS]

01:45:54   your problem you are not doing something [TS]

01:45:55   right [TS]

01:45:56   dynamic serve pages can be almost as [TS]

01:46:01   fast as a static side serve like your [TS]

01:46:05   engine X if you do it right if you have [TS]

01:46:07   things like you know like all what all [TS]

01:46:09   the servers do to serve secretary just [TS]

01:46:11   quickly you have things like caching you [TS]

01:46:13   know it beat the basic caching required [TS]

01:46:16   like there were getting into an era now [TS]

01:46:18   where where I think like as the web is [TS]

01:46:22   shifting into into the new era of mobile [TS]

01:46:26   and whatever else I think we we more [TS]

01:46:29   than ever need things [TS]

01:46:30   like publishing API support so we can [TS]

01:46:33   use tools on the go and stuff like that [TS]

01:46:35   as well as you know various dynamic for [TS]

01:46:38   my generation like amp and whatever [TS]

01:46:40   garbage is thrust upon us in the future [TS]

01:46:42   so it's it's and also like servers are [TS]

01:46:47   so cheap and powerful now and web [TS]

01:46:50   traffic is pretty much down for [TS]

01:46:51   everybody so it's like it's getting [TS]

01:46:54   increasingly harder to justify static [TS]

01:46:58   only side generation when a decently [TS]

01:47:03   written conscientious modern dynamic [TS]

01:47:05   application can do things just as well [TS]

01:47:08   and provide some pretty nice benefits [TS]

01:47:10   for the world of mobile but you do a [TS]

01:47:13   static site you lose the opportunity for [TS]

01:47:16   a programming bug to make your site and [TS]

01:47:18   responsive and so we go back to doing [TS]

01:47:21   dynamic you finally get that ability [TS]

01:47:23   back how complex is your blog CMS John [TS]

01:47:26   now i can now i can make a programming [TS]

01:47:27   error that you know brings me back to [TS]

01:47:30   the good old days when sites will get / [TS]

01:47:31   started [TS]

01:47:32   whereas if it stack the worst you can do [TS]

01:47:33   is make yourself look ugly be static [TS]

01:47:35   generator produced a bunch of crap but [TS]

01:47:36   that ugliness will go real fast [TS]

01:47:38   you guys have obviously not use PHP what [TS]

01:47:41   you think you want because it can also [TS]

01:47:42   make things ugly i don't know well that [TS]

01:47:44   too but no I mean I honestly like modern [TS]

01:47:47   web languages and & 2 chainz & and [TS]

01:47:50   stacks are really fast you'd be shocked [TS]

01:47:54   how fast i don't understand you may get [TS]

01:47:55   your bait you make a programming error [TS]

01:47:57   that caused that you put you put [TS]

01:47:58   something that goes into an infinite [TS]

01:47:59   loop somewhere and then all of your year [TS]

01:48:02   you know child processes get tied up in [TS]

01:48:04   the infinite loop and now you have no [TS]

01:48:05   more responders and you know like it's [TS]

01:48:07   an area not doing it on purpose not [TS]

01:48:08   saying it's performing correctly but [TS]

01:48:09   when you have no code you just have [TS]

01:48:11   static files you that whole class of [TS]

01:48:13   errors is gone and so that's I mean [TS]

01:48:15   that's why people do static stuff it's [TS]

01:48:17   like well it will have predictable [TS]

01:48:19   performance right and there's nothing I [TS]

01:48:22   can do to mess up that predictive [TS]

01:48:23   performance because I'm not serving the [TS]

01:48:25   files you know indexes are Apache is and [TS]

01:48:27   i haven't upgraded in 17 years and she's [TS]

01:48:29   doing what it always does and is hundred [TS]

01:48:31   percent predictable once you add your [TS]

01:48:33   own code to the mix you open up the [TS]

01:48:35   window however small for you making a [TS]

01:48:36   silly program error [TS]

01:48:37   it causes your thing to hang when i get [TS]

01:48:38   so much traffic or something I think you [TS]

01:48:40   might be overestimating the complexity [TS]

01:48:42   of a PHP blog engine [TS]

01:48:44   ya know I said it's a good thing like [TS]

01:48:46   it's not very hard there they didn't [TS]

01:48:48   have much code and there's not much [TS]

01:48:50   opportunity for things like infinite [TS]

01:48:51   loops [TS]

01:48:52   well there's always opportunity for [TS]

01:48:53   infinite loops just you can do that a [TS]

01:48:55   regular expression for crying out loud [TS]

01:48:56   you are not an infidelity and John but [TS]

01:48:58   you could but only after the universe a [TS]

01:49:01   programmer can do that with a regular [TS]

01:49:03   expression all anybody right now but you [TS]

01:49:05   have a PHP even a JavaScript programmer [TS]

01:49:07   can make it regular spread you know what [TS]

01:49:09   terminated well I don't just doesn't the [TS]

01:49:11   speech be only used the FAA since right [TS]

01:49:12   ascension you know what does not even [TS]

01:49:14   know what that means [TS]

01:49:15   well I don't someone someone in the chat [TS]

01:49:17   room now and really an autonomous yeah [TS]

01:49:19   like the ones that are gonna see the the [TS]

01:49:21   non-deterministic finite automata is the [TS]

01:49:23   one of the ones that you can make a [TS]

01:49:24   regular expression that tries like a [TS]

01:49:26   bazillion permutations of how to match [TS]

01:49:28   and it won't succeed or fail in you know [TS]

01:49:31   for a huge amount of time so it's that [TS]

01:49:33   effectively looks like a hang [TS]

01:49:34   I think if you are using regular [TS]

01:49:36   expressions to that level of complexity [TS]

01:49:38   your you might be using the wrong tool [TS]

01:49:39   for the job [TS]

01:49:40   it's not it's not a complex thing it's [TS]

01:49:41   really you can you can make a trivial [TS]

01:49:43   example with like six characters but [TS]

01:49:45   just like characters and pluses and a [TS]

01:49:47   couple friends and you can make one that [TS]

01:49:48   goes up but but some regular expressions [TS]

01:49:50   i like he grew up I believe in the [TS]

01:49:52   command line only the CFA's and those [TS]

01:49:54   don't have that problem but to use the [TS]

01:49:55   fancy features the Pearl has its Rex [TS]

01:49:57   engine you have to have an NFA engine in [TS]

01:50:00   there as well and I think process which [TS]

01:50:01   is between them uses the FAA when it's [TS]

01:50:02   faster and anyway this is all esoteric [TS]

01:50:05   with the point as infinite loops are [TS]

01:50:06   everywhere [TS]

01:50:07   if you look hard enough what are you [TS]

01:50:08   doing with your blog like honestly like [TS]

01:50:10   I like I've won a number of blogs CMS's [TS]

01:50:13   you know ill-advisedly over the years [TS]

01:50:15   and and I don't think I've ever even [TS]

01:50:17   needed anything that complex like what [TS]

01:50:20   are you doing I'm not doing anything [TS]

01:50:21   I've static files i'm saying you've seen [TS]

01:50:23   it i mean the most common cases what you [TS]

01:50:25   said before that someone doesn't [TS]

01:50:26   somebody either influenced catching [TS]

01:50:27   wrong or just implemented at all and you [TS]

01:50:29   get to see like they're my sequel [TS]

01:50:30   connection errors on right get slashed [TS]

01:50:33   at like the bad old days it's not like [TS]

01:50:34   the languages and fast enough it's like [TS]

01:50:35   they didn't realize that they might need [TS]

01:50:38   to have 7,000 simultaneous connections [TS]

01:50:39   that my sequel database and it didn't do [TS]

01:50:41   any form of caching and their page gets [TS]

01:50:43   popular and all you get to see is that [TS]

01:50:44   is there a lovely my sequel errand [TS]

01:50:46   an error page like remember those days [TS]

01:50:48   that used to happen a lot that still [TS]

01:50:50   happens like I know what does that's the [TS]

01:50:52   that's the magic of a dynamically [TS]

01:50:54   generated website combined with that she [TS]

01:50:56   had silent gets ya don't want to do [TS]

01:50:59   caching but you know that you've got [TS]

01:51:00   about cache invalidation and it's just [TS]

01:51:02   another class a whole class of bugs [TS]

01:51:03   doesn't exist when you really don't you [TS]

01:51:05   know it you don't you can do like [TS]

01:51:06   because because of the scale we're [TS]

01:51:07   talking about here like the most simple [TS]

01:51:10   cashing in the world works just fine [TS]

01:51:11   what you do you put a caching proxy in [TS]

01:51:14   front of your application and your [TS]

01:51:16   application sends a cache header with a [TS]

01:51:18   TTL of one second because then it will [TS]

01:51:21   in most cases only ever have to generate [TS]

01:51:23   one page per second dynamically which [TS]

01:51:25   they can all do and you can be serving [TS]

01:51:27   up to a thousand people per second on [TS]

01:51:28   the front and that's fine because the [TS]

01:51:30   caching server can do that its total [TS]

01:51:32   cash stampedes though you started [TS]

01:51:33   stampedes for when the the one second [TS]

01:51:35   expires and like it only for badly [TS]

01:51:37   written caching servers there we have [TS]

01:51:39   better ones now they avoided but there [TS]

01:51:41   are so many ways you can screw this up [TS]

01:51:42   but I'm saying like it what by doing the [TS]

01:51:44   reason people who died static sites is [TS]

01:51:46   because it eliminates his entire class [TS]

01:51:47   of performance related problems and you [TS]

01:51:49   trade it for the other problem which is [TS]

01:51:50   that your site takes longer to update [TS]

01:51:52   and potentially you could cause your [TS]

01:51:53   entire side if you if you make a bug [TS]

01:51:54   there but that trade-off is why people [TS]

01:51:56   do static sites and you end your you're [TS]

01:51:58   more limited in the kind of features [TS]

01:52:00   your site can support which sometimes [TS]

01:52:02   can be important [TS]

01:52:03   ya know you can have your type decide be [TS]

01:52:05   entirely status have little sub URL be [TS]

01:52:07   mad but in most cases prove this because [TS]

01:52:09   it snowed site was what is a hundred [TS]

01:52:10   percent dynamic right you were doing [TS]

01:52:11   like the stupidest dynamically never [TS]

01:52:13   like we're doing any cash you're just [TS]

01:52:14   catching it in memory whatever was just [TS]

01:52:16   like when you were feel now like it was [TS]

01:52:21   an episode about the most naive like it [TS]

01:52:23   wasn't like you were going to greater [TS]

01:52:24   that's why you're here is because your [TS]

01:52:26   night [TS]

01:52:26   yeah well I feel like a million night [TS]

01:52:29   and I use the term of art night and is [TS]

01:52:31   serving a [TS]

01:52:33   yes your question what happened is the [TS]

01:52:36   first time I actually it's upon load [TS]

01:52:38   basically when the engine is spun up it [TS]

01:52:39   looks to the file system and it looks at [TS]

01:52:42   a bunch of markdown files converts those [TS]

01:52:45   two HTML renders full-bore HTML for each [TS]

01:52:48   page and then holds that in memory so in [TS]

01:52:51   principle once the thing is spun up it [TS]

01:52:54   should never have to think about [TS]

01:52:56   anything again it just has to figure out [TS]

01:52:59   where in memory that that that pages [TS]

01:53:02   yeah so that I mean obviously that [TS]

01:53:03   approach doesn't work for a site with a [TS]

01:53:05   billion pages on it like archive.org or [TS]

01:53:07   something but it works fine for a blog [TS]

01:53:09   and it's technically dynamic because [TS]

01:53:11   it's not like attending the disc every [TS]

01:53:13   time you make a request right but it's [TS]

01:53:15   also basically static static dynamic but [TS]

01:53:18   then that's exactly the point like what [TS]

01:53:20   I put on the readme where did that guy [TS]

01:53:22   just I was just a window open [TS]

01:53:24   maybe in an infinite loop and you can't [TS]

01:53:25   find it yeah that's you know what I [TS]

01:53:27   think you're right i think that's [TS]

01:53:28   exactly what happened i'll send you guys [TS]

01:53:30   some some good in front of the breakers [TS]

01:53:31   right i can find out maybe job doesn't [TS]

01:53:32   suffer from it wouldn't surprise me if [TS]

01:53:34   javascript is all DFAS because I suspect [TS]

01:53:36   that I would see more of it on the web [TS]

01:53:37   who was a thing this conversation was [TS]

01:53:40   probably meant to have me like start [TS]

01:53:43   learning Swift but now instead I just [TS]

01:53:45   want to do the worst possible use of my [TS]

01:53:47   time because i want to write a new blog [TS]

01:53:48   engine in PHP imaginative writing a blog [TS]

01:53:51   and Swift combine 2 into 1 are the are [TS]

01:53:54   the server-side frameworks there yet [TS]

01:53:55   because they honestly i would consider [TS]

01:53:57   that I think so there's a bunch of [TS]

01:53:59   projects that i mean i'm sure they're [TS]

01:54:01   not like mature or probably even goodbye [TS]

01:54:04   feel like you can get the job done [TS]

01:54:05   because like you said blog engine is not [TS]

01:54:07   that complicated but that IBM is working [TS]

01:54:09   on from what I understand isn't bad i [TS]

01:54:11   can't remember the name of top my head [TS]

01:54:13   is it's it's very easy to do this kind [TS]

01:54:15   of thing in one of the very popular old [TS]

01:54:18   languages like PHP or Python or Ruby [TS]

01:54:21   because there's libraries to do [TS]

01:54:23   everything the blog's ever need [TS]

01:54:24   so like markdown processors things like [TS]

01:54:27   that that's really easy to use bolt-on [TS]

01:54:29   because it's right there like there's a [TS]

01:54:31   million libraries to do it's great right [TS]

01:54:32   that's the thing yeah so like i am i'm [TS]

01:54:35   curious you and and things like you know [TS]

01:54:37   image resizing thumbnailing if that's [TS]

01:54:39   ever necessary stuff like that like the [TS]

01:54:42   kind of stuff that like that blog CMS's [TS]

01:54:44   tend to need [TS]

01:54:45   it's fairly simple but there are a few [TS]

01:54:47   components that are somewhat complex and [TS]

01:54:49   it's nice to have to have like you know [TS]

01:54:51   good support for them you know [TS]

01:54:54   wait for my go up webby type of language [TS]

01:54:56   that's been around for a while and [TS]

01:54:58   things like PHP and Ruby and Python like [TS]

01:55:01   those those have tons of good libraries [TS]

01:55:03   out there for that kind of stuff [TS]

01:55:04   something that's that's brand-new or [TS]

01:55:06   that hasn't been really used in a web [TS]

01:55:07   context very much like Swift I've also [TS]

01:55:11   had this problem with go honestly go has [TS]

01:55:12   a lot of built-in libraries for like [TS]

01:55:15   stuff like math and stuff but once you [TS]

01:55:16   get into like more webby type needs it [TS]

01:55:19   you very quickly hit walls of like oh [TS]

01:55:21   there just isn't a library to do this or [TS]

01:55:24   there's one library that just shows out [TS]

01:55:25   to this obscure c library that won't [TS]

01:55:28   compile or whatever else I i I've had a [TS]

01:55:30   lot of issues with go in that regard but [TS]

01:55:33   yeah I'm kind of down and go now [TS]

01:55:35   honestly like I feel like Swift kind of [TS]

01:55:38   did go better than go and so now I just [TS]

01:55:42   kind of want swift to be on the server [TS]

01:55:43   so i could just use that should try rust [TS]

01:55:45   snacks maybe rest has better service [TS]

01:55:47   hours I don't know anything about their [TS]

01:55:49   library situation but it's in a similar [TS]

01:55:51   vein if you're into those type of [TS]

01:55:52   languages [TS]

01:55:53   yeah I haven't looked at rush recently i [TS]

01:55:55   did look at it like you know about two [TS]

01:55:57   years ago but i would expect it might [TS]

01:56:00   have the same issues as go [TS]

01:56:02   we're like it it probably doesn't have a [TS]

01:56:03   lot of those like rich client side [TS]

01:56:05   libraries because i think it's more like [TS]

01:56:08   a low-level thing it's also it is also [TS]

01:56:10   very new and and you know not incredibly [TS]

01:56:12   popular yet i don't know there's a [TS]

01:56:15   couple of different options for swift [TS]

01:56:16   there's Taylor which is funny but just [TS]

01:56:19   won't fully badly named because then [TS]

01:56:21   you're searching for Taylor Swift there [TS]

01:56:23   is perfect and the first Katara which is [TS]

01:56:25   a perfect is just an obnoxious name and [TS]

01:56:28   then katara which is probably the best [TS]

01:56:30   kind of name because I've never heard [TS]

01:56:32   that word used anywhere else before and [TS]

01:56:35   so that theoretically should work just [TS]

01:56:37   perfect have a bug tracker [TS]

01:56:39   yeah happen i don't know i would assume [TS]

01:56:42   so that's that's funny as hell [TS]

01:56:44   that's not get up so yes it does the [TS]

01:56:46   first heading what is perfect i think my [TS]

01:56:48   head like nothing like I don't know I'm [TS]

01:56:50   this obviously but you're saying nothing [TS]

01:56:52   is hope [TS]

01:56:54   yeah there you go like that [TS]

01:56:57   I have an issue on their thing that bugs [TS]

01:56:59   their issues [TS]

01:57:00   issue number one nothing is so perfect [TS]