The Accidental Tech Podcast

210: My Stupid Thumb


00:00:00   so much easier when everything was [TS]

00:00:01   monogrammed those are the days right [TS]

00:00:03   John [TS]

00:00:04   those were the days you kids these days [TS]

00:00:06   and your multi-bit displays pixels could [TS]

00:00:08   be on or they could be off [TS]

00:00:10   what more do you need so I'm sick [TS]

00:00:14   well you know i should actually save [TS]

00:00:16   that for right before follow-up because [TS]

00:00:17   if you don't leave in that I'm sick then [TS]

00:00:19   everyone's gonna bring to you about how [TS]

00:00:20   the sounds all wrong for me [TS]

00:00:22   mark I would never added something out [TS]

00:00:23   of a podcast that causes a stream of [TS]

00:00:25   feedback for an entire week even though [TS]

00:00:26   we discussed on the show [TS]

00:00:28   normally I try to edit I i try to remove [TS]

00:00:35   things that we that we say kind of like [TS]

00:00:38   I wonder if it's this way that like we [TS]

00:00:39   find out two seconds later are wrong [TS]

00:00:41   because that way because we actually if [TS]

00:00:44   I don't do that then we will get tons of [TS]

00:00:46   emails from people who have who pause at [TS]

00:00:48   that point before we realize that we are [TS]

00:00:50   wrong and write and tell us where that [TS]

00:00:52   we were wrong so normally i will edit [TS]

00:00:54   out like the first half of something [TS]

00:00:55   like that just because like it doesn't [TS]

00:00:57   do anybody any good to hear speculate [TS]

00:00:59   being wrong that we're going to learn is [TS]

00:01:01   wrong [TS]

00:01:02   shortly after but sometimes we get it [TS]

00:01:04   wrong [TS]

00:01:05   so with that in mind before anyone right [TS]

00:01:08   saying i am a little sick i actually [TS]

00:01:10   feel fine but I get home maybe my [TS]

00:01:12   sinuses are clogged up because I sound [TS]

00:01:13   weird you sound like hell but I know I I [TS]

00:01:16   really do feel okay like i have been [TS]

00:01:17   snot in that much I mean everything [TS]

00:01:19   seems okay but I can feel it coming [TS]

00:01:21   can we hear more detail about your about [TS]

00:01:23   your nasal situation and i would love to [TS]

00:01:25   have to actually it's funny because i am [TS]

00:01:27   as your but let's hear more yeah it's [TS]

00:01:30   god I wish I remember that scrub song [TS]

00:01:32   about a it all comes I think it's all it [TS]

00:01:34   all comes down to poo something like [TS]

00:01:36   that anyway and I'm but a but yeah I [TS]

00:01:39   listen to do by friday which I resisted [TS]

00:01:42   listening to you for awhile for no [TS]

00:01:44   particular reason just because I guess [TS]

00:01:46   just because I don't feel like I have a [TS]

00:01:48   lot of availability in my in my shedule [TS]

00:01:51   for her new podcast don't do it out well [TS]

00:01:55   and as it turns out i'm glad i folded [TS]

00:01:57   because due by friday is excellent and [TS]

00:02:00   on due by friday they were talking about [TS]

00:02:02   some sort of like sinus cleansing device [TS]

00:02:05   that I think came from walgreens don't [TS]

00:02:07   do that either [TS]

00:02:08   there's a neti pot right well yeah neti [TS]

00:02:10   pot or something along those lines I [TS]

00:02:11   forget the details for any of us [TS]

00:02:12   yeah well that's the [TS]

00:02:13   thing and so on the one side I feel like [TS]

00:02:15   I think my sinuses are like clogged as [TS]

00:02:18   hell in and one of these neti pot like [TS]

00:02:20   things would theoretically clear it but [TS]

00:02:23   that being said I really do not want a [TS]

00:02:26   brain amoeba and so i will just pass and [TS]

00:02:28   sound like a moron for the rest of the [TS]

00:02:30   episode and not died from a brain amoeba [TS]

00:02:33   and I'll be okay with that now in in [TS]

00:02:34   fairness for the due by friday brain [TS]

00:02:37   squirting device that one that what did [TS]

00:02:40   have a microfilter of some kind that [TS]

00:02:43   purported to block the brain and [TS]

00:02:44   meatballs from entering your brain and [TS]

00:02:46   there's anybody you want to trust with [TS]

00:02:47   keeping microbes out of your body but [TS]

00:02:49   through use of a paper-thin filter CBS [TS]

00:02:52   it's a $14 thing at walgreens walgreens [TS]

00:02:55   sorry not CBS sorry that's a whole [TS]

00:02:57   different story [TS]

00:02:58   yeah it's walgreens then you're okay my [TS]

00:03:01   goodness so yes don't yell at Marco is [TS]

00:03:03   levels aren't wrong my levels aren't [TS]

00:03:05   wrong and sound weird [TS]

00:03:06   so see apologies for that we should [TS]

00:03:09   start with some follow-up we are aware [TS]

00:03:12   that you can use control center to [TS]

00:03:15   switch to air pods on iOS devices the [TS]

00:03:17   whole of the internet wrote in to tell [TS]

00:03:19   us this and this was very confusing for [TS]

00:03:21   John and I because we spoke about this [TS]

00:03:24   on the show and I didn't understand why [TS]

00:03:27   nobody spent the time to figure that out [TS]

00:03:29   and as it turns out we later discovered [TS]

00:03:32   that this was one of those instances [TS]

00:03:34   where Marco got a little aggressive with [TS]

00:03:37   the edits which a truth be told happens [TS]

00:03:39   extremely rarely but every great once in [TS]

00:03:41   a while something slip through the [TS]

00:03:42   cracks and this is one of those [TS]

00:03:44   instances where John and I discussed [TS]

00:03:46   this and it was in the midst of other [TS]

00:03:50   things that should have been cut and [TS]

00:03:52   apparently the slicing and dicing was [TS]

00:03:54   not quite surgical enough so we are [TS]

00:03:56   aware that you can use control swim [TS]

00:03:58   center to switch to airports on iOS [TS]

00:04:00   devices so thank you the entirety of the [TS]

00:04:02   internet for writing it but more [TS]

00:04:04   importantly for the people who listen to [TS]

00:04:05   the show the vast vast majority of [TS]

00:04:07   people that information was cut and they [TS]

00:04:09   didn't get the benefit of knowing that [TS]

00:04:11   is obviously the people who who wrote in [TS]

00:04:13   to tell us that we can use a control [TS]

00:04:16   center [TS]

00:04:16   you know like that i was surprised by [TS]

00:04:19   them running because I said oh you like [TS]

00:04:21   Marco sometimes people pause the show to [TS]

00:04:23   send feedback and then they resume [TS]

00:04:25   playing it and there's some [TS]

00:04:27   standard amount of feedback you get of [TS]

00:04:28   someone saying something that you know [TS]

00:04:30   will be addressed maybe 20 or 30 seconds [TS]

00:04:33   later in the show and that's fine that [TS]

00:04:35   happens all the time i do myself [TS]

00:04:36   everybody does it right [TS]

00:04:37   I usually expect to see one or two [TS]

00:04:40   pieces of feedback after that saying oh [TS]

00:04:43   haha should have waited 20 seconds and [TS]

00:04:45   you mentioned it but I didn't see any of [TS]

00:04:47   those was like this is weird [TS]

00:04:49   large volume of people apparently [TS]

00:04:50   pausing the podcast get feedback but [TS]

00:04:53   nobody saying oh sorry I should've kept [TS]

00:04:55   listening so that was that was my clue [TS]

00:04:58   that this was going on but anyway the [TS]

00:05:00   important piece of information denied to [TS]

00:05:02   all the other listeners who didn't know [TS]

00:05:05   or didn't listen live ya hit that that [TS]

00:05:08   you can do this if you have their pods [TS]

00:05:10   and multiple iOS devices you don't have [TS]

00:05:13   to go to settings and bluetooth and [TS]

00:05:15   switch it you can do it in control [TS]

00:05:17   center and it is more convenient so try [TS]

00:05:18   it [TS]

00:05:19   yeah and in to be clear just in case it [TS]

00:05:21   wasn't obvious there are two panes in [TS]

00:05:23   control center and it is the rightmost [TS]

00:05:25   pain there's a kind of a dropdownlist [TS]

00:05:29   ish thing on the bottom where you can [TS]

00:05:31   select your output device and that's [TS]

00:05:33   what you want and actually speaking of [TS]

00:05:35   control center one of the reasons that [TS]

00:05:37   it is not actually has a convenient for [TS]

00:05:39   me to use control center is because as [TS]

00:05:41   of right now I have control settled [TS]

00:05:43   control center disabled on my iPad [TS]

00:05:46   everybody except for springboard you [TS]

00:05:48   know that setting if you whether you [TS]

00:05:50   want to be able to swipe up and control [TS]

00:05:51   center either Justin springboard all [TS]

00:05:53   apps i figure how its phrase but anyway [TS]

00:05:55   I had to disable control center in [TS]

00:05:58   during in applications on my iPad which [TS]

00:06:00   is the main device i would be switching [TS]

00:06:02   to because of stage and which is an [TS]

00:06:04   excellent game that you should try but [TS]

00:06:05   involves a lot of swiping rapidly upward [TS]

00:06:07   from the bottom of your ipad huh and I [TS]

00:06:09   really don't want control center to [TS]

00:06:11   appear I don't even want the little [TS]

00:06:12   tabby thing to hear because you know it [TS]

00:06:14   makes you do it twice just to show that [TS]

00:06:15   you really mean it [TS]

00:06:16   that little tabby things appears and I'm [TS]

00:06:18   instantly dead so that's a great game [TS]

00:06:21   everyone should buy it and try it and [TS]

00:06:24   you can just control center first I love [TS]

00:06:27   the the style of that game i love the [TS]

00:06:30   music of the game i love the idea of [TS]

00:06:31   that game but my brain just can't do it [TS]

00:06:34   like I I know there's some kind of like [TS]

00:06:36   learning curve maybe and I try playing [TS]

00:06:38   it for like a good 15 minutes I could [TS]

00:06:40   not [TS]

00:06:40   I get my brain to do it right heated [TS]

00:06:42   it's not a learning curve there it is to [TS]

00:06:45   state machine there is i don't get the [TS]

00:06:47   game and then you'll cross the humongous [TS]

00:06:50   gap somehow magically and all of a [TS]

00:06:51   sudden you get the game that was my [TS]

00:06:52   experiences i was i was in the beta for [TS]

00:06:55   that game and I played I played a lot [TS]

00:06:57   during the beta right and my high score [TS]

00:07:00   was like one or two hundred for several [TS]

00:07:04   weeks and then as the day went on I I [TS]

00:07:09   got close to 400 and I was asking was [TS]

00:07:12   asking Kevin like what the mall people [TS]

00:07:14   get for high scores like I know it's [TS]

00:07:15   just the beta testers but like mi mi [TS]

00:07:18   just terrible at this game I like [TS]

00:07:20   average and he was saying there's a lot [TS]

00:07:22   of variability and so on and so forth [TS]

00:07:23   trying to make me feel better about my [TS]

00:07:25   fault my terrible high score but once [TS]

00:07:28   the game got closer to release that I [TS]

00:07:30   think it was actually around the time of [TS]

00:07:31   release [TS]

00:07:32   I my brain figure it out like figured [TS]

00:07:35   out how to play the game and instantly [TS]

00:07:37   went up into the thousands and you know [TS]

00:07:40   I haven't looked back so I wouldn't you [TS]

00:07:42   know it it's a fun game it's a cute [TS]

00:07:45   little trifle you can play with it but [TS]

00:07:47   unfortunately unlike altos adventure [TS]

00:07:49   unfortunately / fortunately once you [TS]

00:07:51   figure the game out it becomes [TS]

00:07:53   surprisingly time-consuming as you spend [TS]

00:07:57   your days plugging away at this thing [TS]

00:07:59   out but there is there is a big leap so [TS]

00:08:01   if you don't you know you don't ever [TS]

00:08:02   make that leap that's fine i still think [TS]

00:08:04   it's worth the three bucks over the game [TS]

00:08:05   costs just to play with it because it's [TS]

00:08:07   a really novel interesting idea [TS]

00:08:09   very well executed but there is another [TS]

00:08:12   game on the other side of it once you [TS]

00:08:13   once you cross the hurdle once you bring [TS]

00:08:15   gets the game and then you can like me [TS]

00:08:17   spend most your time being incredibly [TS]

00:08:19   frustrated that you made some tiny my [TS]

00:08:21   new mistake after playing for literally [TS]

00:08:23   20 minutes and just missed your high [TS]

00:08:25   score this sounds vaguely like the [TS]

00:08:27   smarter every day video with the [TS]

00:08:30   backwards bike [TS]

00:08:31   have you seen this it's al with where [TS]

00:08:33   they had it's like a gear or something [TS]

00:08:35   like that such that when you turned the [TS]

00:08:37   handle bars right the bike went left and [TS]

00:08:39   in if you watch the video spoiler alert [TS]

00:08:42   basically eventually just flip this [TS]

00:08:45   switch your brain just puts the switch [TS]

00:08:46   where it understands and then you can [TS]

00:08:50   actually to ride the bike also real-time [TS]

00:08:52   follow up this is an example [TS]

00:08:54   us saying something that we don't [TS]

00:08:56   realize is wrong people will have [TS]

00:08:57   already pause the show and written in [TS]

00:08:59   and now i will correct it for the three [TS]

00:09:02   of you that actually use home kit home [TS]

00:09:04   kid is the rightmost panel control [TS]

00:09:06   center it is not it is not the audio [TS]

00:09:09   stuff but there's only three of you that [TS]

00:09:11   use home kit so I appreciate all three [TS]

00:09:13   of you writing in markup that door yeah [TS]

00:09:15   yeah sure you think they're also the [TS]

00:09:17   Opera users how you know that's an [TS]

00:09:19   interesting point very well could be [TS]

00:09:21   I don't know so right if you know [TS]

00:09:24   actually not really pleased if I their [TS]

00:09:26   long waits when you use the chat feature [TS]

00:09:28   dirty for most customer support tools [TS]

00:09:31   this is when you use the online web chat [TS]

00:09:33   because like me you hate the telephone [TS]

00:09:35   and don't want to spend any time on the [TS]

00:09:36   telephone if you can avoid it tomw [TS]

00:09:38   rights in to point out web chat works on [TS]

00:09:41   the premise that one person speaks to a [TS]

00:09:43   few people at once many up to 10 and [TS]

00:09:45   perhaps that's why the latency is so [TS]

00:09:48   atrociously bad in in when you're having [TS]

00:09:52   these online chat experiences a lot of [TS]

00:09:54   people running with a backhand makes [TS]

00:09:56   perfect sense and it should have [TS]

00:09:57   occurred to me but didn't like i was [TS]

00:09:59   using it because the phone lines were [TS]

00:10:00   closed but I mean they just it just [TS]

00:10:02   falls out of my car keys to the phone [TS]

00:10:03   lines that close [TS]

00:10:03   why is the text right open because in [TS]

00:10:07   text chat you can attend 1 multiplied [TS]

00:10:08   are your people and that's why i gotta [TS]

00:10:12   wait 10 minutes to reply because someone [TS]

00:10:14   was replying to 10 other people and [TS]

00:10:16   that's actually kind of an amazing / [TS]

00:10:18   terrible job because who wants to have [TS]

00:10:20   you ever tried to conduct 10 [TS]

00:10:23   simultaneous text conversations that are [TS]

00:10:26   productive in anyway with anybody you [TS]

00:10:28   can't joke around with three friends at [TS]

00:10:31   once I feel like I'm frazzled doing that [TS]

00:10:32   it's like all right are you know I mean [TS]

00:10:33   you can have you can have multiple [TS]

00:10:35   things going with a knot in an on-time [TS]

00:10:38   critical nature like just you know [TS]

00:10:39   whatever like someone said something [TS]

00:10:40   funny and then you say something funny [TS]

00:10:42   backward like that's fine multiple slack [TS]

00:10:44   channels all that stuff but 10 customer [TS]

00:10:46   service conversations for the person on [TS]

00:10:47   the other end is potentially angry and [TS]

00:10:50   wants to just complete a transaction [TS]

00:10:52   now if you're really bad for these [TS]

00:10:53   people tell me i'm guessing that there [TS]

00:10:54   is you know software assistance here [TS]

00:10:57   that they're probably using special [TS]

00:10:58   tools that have like a checklist script [TS]

00:11:01   they're going through each person and [TS]

00:11:02   Electro's yeah well but yet even just [TS]

00:11:04   like like i'm sure there's like a script [TS]

00:11:06   or like a checklist that each one [TS]

00:11:07   and can probably keep a state of like [TS]

00:11:09   here's what i've done with this customer [TS]

00:11:10   so far so there's probably some kind of [TS]

00:11:13   like special software designed to help [TS]

00:11:15   them out here I mean this is a perfect [TS]

00:11:17   application for everyone's favorite 80s [TS]

00:11:18   AI technology expert systems where you [TS]

00:11:21   can make a general-purpose AI because [TS]

00:11:23   really hard but what you can do is make [TS]

00:11:26   a text-only chat thing that knows how to [TS]

00:11:29   handle customer service you know the top [TS]

00:11:31   5 customer service concerns and but [TS]

00:11:33   points to a user if it can't figure it [TS]

00:11:36   out and those can work fine too and i [TS]

00:11:38   think i would probably be mostly okay [TS]

00:11:39   with those it if it just you know i [TS]

00:11:44   would type in something and it would [TS]

00:11:45   repeat back to me its understanding of [TS]

00:11:47   the thing asking for confirmation and I [TS]

00:11:50   can get frustrating if you go around in [TS]

00:11:51   circles but if it just wants you to a [TS]

00:11:52   person i can imagine it would probably [TS]

00:11:54   be good for you know covering at least [TS]

00:11:56   half of the cases of i have a product [TS]

00:11:58   there's a problem I want to return and [TS]

00:12:00   we asked me for the order number and [TS]

00:12:02   give me the RMA and but like machine can [TS]

00:12:04   do that [TS]

00:12:05   not that I'm trying to put more people [TS]

00:12:06   to work with the eyes but you know [TS]

00:12:08   efficiencies well alright so let's get [TS]

00:12:12   to the job siracusa portion of follow-up [TS]

00:12:14   as if all the follow-up visit John's [TS]

00:12:17   already why don't you tell us about a [TS]

00:12:19   PFS somebody on the internet named Tyler [TS]

00:12:24   lock or loke successfully booted mac OS [TS]

00:12:28   Sierra from in a PFS file system is ntfs [TS]

00:12:30   was introduced in Syria as a developer [TS]

00:12:33   preview and presumably sometime this [TS]

00:12:35   year will be the official supported [TS]

00:12:38   bootable file system for what I suppose [TS]

00:12:42   is the next major version of Mac West [TS]

00:12:43   who knows they can do it a point release [TS]

00:12:45   to whatever it's already coming to iOS [TS]

00:12:47   and in ten point 3 and that's not even [TS]

00:12:48   the next major release and up until now [TS]

00:12:52   you haven't been able to boot from it [TS]

00:12:54   but many many parts of it are getting [TS]

00:12:55   more mature and obviously if it's going [TS]

00:12:57   to be the it it's going to convert all [TS]

00:12:59   your iOS devices a PFS and 10.3 I bet [TS]

00:13:02   the file system is pretty much ready for [TS]

00:13:03   primetime the only reason it's not on [TS]

00:13:05   the max because the mac is obviously a [TS]

00:13:06   lower priority and he tweeted about this [TS]

00:13:09   will put some links in the show notes to [TS]

00:13:11   these tweets just you can get in touch [TS]

00:13:12   with him and tell him to write a blog [TS]

00:13:14   post about it if he hasn't already [TS]

00:13:15   he did it by taking a 10-point 12.4 [TS]

00:13:21   drive [TS]

00:13:21   cloning it running the a PFS HFS convert [TS]

00:13:24   command-line utility which exists to [TS]

00:13:26   convert it in place just like it doesn't [TS]

00:13:28   iOS devices right that's you know why [TS]

00:13:29   that utility exist and then manually [TS]

00:13:32   edited the goal partition table uuid to [TS]

00:13:35   some big heck string that apparently is [TS]

00:13:38   the right one and then did some other [TS]

00:13:41   stuff that i can understand bc try to [TS]

00:13:42   complete compress it onto a tweet and [TS]

00:13:45   change some car flags and rebooted and [TS]

00:13:47   he was booted into a PFS and the other [TS]

00:13:49   thing to note is his little screenshot [TS]

00:13:51   showing hey look I'm booted into a PFS [TS]

00:13:53   showed as the volume type a PFS and in [TS]

00:13:57   parentheses case-insensitive so in case [TS]

00:13:59   you're wondering if it was just a choice [TS]

00:14:01   he made it was going to be the official [TS]

00:14:02   one but maybe fest case-insensitive is [TS]

00:14:06   certainly a thing so maybe if you're [TS]

00:14:08   having problems with case-sensitive hfs+ [TS]

00:14:10   you won't have to worry about that with [TS]

00:14:12   a PFS because you won't be forced to [TS]

00:14:14   make your Mac case sensitive if the [TS]

00:14:16   screenshot is any indication we respond [TS]

00:14:19   to this week by indochino but indochino [TS]

00:14:22   dot-com and use promo code ATP for any [TS]

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00:14:28   it's an incredible deal for a suit that [TS]

00:14:30   will fit you better than anything off [TS]

00:14:32   the rack ever could [TS]

00:14:33   indochino is reinventing man's fashion [TS]

00:14:36   by making made-to-measure suits [TS]

00:14:38   affordable and available to the masses [TS]

00:14:41   made-to-measure suits are just fit and [TS]

00:14:44   feel so much better than generic [TS]

00:14:46   off-the-rack suits even if you get other [TS]

00:14:48   suits like custom-tailored off-the-rack [TS]

00:14:50   a made-to-order suit made just for you [TS]

00:14:53   will still fit so much better than that [TS]

00:14:55   and it feels so good to have a student [TS]

00:14:57   to one-of-a-kind uniquely yours and when [TS]

00:15:00   you look good you feel good you feel [TS]

00:15:02   confident in yourself [TS]

00:15:04   so with indochino you can get a [TS]

00:15:06   one-of-a-kind made-to-measure suits you [TS]

00:15:08   can customize the details you want you [TS]

00:15:10   can pick your own lining of Hell style [TS]

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00:15:14   things you can customize about these [TS]

00:15:16   suits 14 unique measurements going to [TS]

00:15:19   making a suit that fits you perfectly [TS]

00:15:22   you cannot go wrong with a well-crafted [TS]

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00:15:30   all this comes with a money-back [TS]

00:15:31   guarantee listeners and get any premium [TS]

00:15:34   in [TS]

00:15:35   no Chino suit for just 389 @ indochino [TS]

00:15:38   commenting ATP at checkout [TS]

00:15:41   this is fifty percent off the regular [TS]

00:15:43   price for a made-to-measure premium suit [TS]

00:15:46   plus free shipping and money back [TS]

00:15:48   guarantee so once again [TS]

00:15:49   indochino dot-com promo code ATP to get [TS]

00:15:53   any premium super just 39 and free [TS]

00:15:55   shipping it's an incredible deal for a [TS]

00:15:57   suit that will fit you better than [TS]

00:15:58   anything off the rack ever could thank [TS]

00:16:00   you very much too indochino were [TS]

00:16:01   sponsoring our show once again [TS]

00:16:03   ah so big week for Marco as they say you [TS]

00:16:09   have released overcast three so [TS]

00:16:11   congratulations Thank You there's only [TS]

00:16:13   one massive bug [TS]

00:16:14   what's the best of bug well that there [TS]

00:16:15   were there were 15 minor bugs that I [TS]

00:16:17   fixed in a point release yesterday but [TS]

00:16:20   created one less minor bug where now you [TS]

00:16:23   just can't create playlists anymore [TS]

00:16:25   that's no big deal I've heard from [TS]

00:16:27   surprisingly few people about it because [TS]

00:16:29   creating playlists is not a very common [TS]

00:16:31   action you get the others list for free [TS]

00:16:33   and if you q things that's created [TS]

00:16:36   automatically so that's fine i have the [TS]

00:16:38   fix ready iTunes Connect has been [TS]

00:16:40   undergoing maintenance stuff all day so [TS]

00:16:43   I haven't actually able to be able to be [TS]

00:16:44   able to submit but that should be fixed [TS]

00:16:46   in a couple days probably the time this [TS]

00:16:48   podcast goes live [TS]

00:16:49   youyou found this bug the playlist bug [TS]

00:16:51   after you release the left you uploaded [TS]

00:16:53   30 1301 cause the bug [TS]

00:16:56   there you go yeah yeah that's now that's [TS]

00:16:59   the point release because i was so it [TS]

00:17:00   was it was rapid turnaround like you had [TS]

00:17:02   three point one which had like a bunch [TS]

00:17:04   of little minor fixes and gotta prove [TS]

00:17:05   really quickly and went up on the store [TS]

00:17:07   it's like wow [TS]

00:17:08   everything's working at design but they [TS]

00:17:09   had a bug because 30 had had a pretty [TS]

00:17:12   serious bug where the gesture for [TS]

00:17:15   dismissing the now playing sheet it [TS]

00:17:18   would interfere with the speed sliders [TS]

00:17:20   little thumb if you would set the speed [TS]

00:17:22   to the very bottom setting the minus [TS]

00:17:24   which is like points7 extra point x1 [TS]

00:17:26   like that so basically if you set this [TS]

00:17:29   be all the way down you could never [TS]

00:17:30   change it unless you have like an iPad [TS]

00:17:32   or something you could like sink it back [TS]

00:17:33   from and so that was a pretty serious [TS]

00:17:35   bug but I i had to get 301 out quickly [TS]

00:17:40   and they were a couple of other like [TS]

00:17:41   minor things like you know let me throw [TS]

00:17:42   in you know whatever I could do quickly [TS]

00:17:44   that's not gonna require lots of testing [TS]

00:17:45   to validate and everything [TS]

00:17:47   let me just do that quickly [TS]

00:17:48   and I slipped up when fixing a playlist [TS]

00:17:51   reordering but basically I pulled the [TS]

00:17:53   place editor out of the card environment [TS]

00:17:55   because for various implementation [TS]

00:17:58   details that are born again into here [TS]

00:18:01   uitableview reorder controls break if [TS]

00:18:05   they're in a card that isn't mine now [TS]

00:18:06   playing card so i had to reach had to [TS]

00:18:10   revert the playlist editor back to the [TS]

00:18:12   regular environment which is not in a [TS]

00:18:14   car because it's a regular full screen [TS]

00:18:15   sheet and in doing that I mistakenly [TS]

00:18:19   forgot to readd the done button back to [TS]

00:18:22   it so now you can cancel the creation of [TS]

00:18:24   the playlist but you cannot finish it [TS]

00:18:26   surprising that your comprehensive suite [TS]

00:18:28   of automated tests and catch this i was [TS]

00:18:30   waiting for thank you John syracuse i [TS]

00:18:32   love you might want to save your voice [TS]

00:18:33   thank you [TS]

00:18:34   alright so you've gone on a justifiable [TS]

00:18:38   media blitz i listen to under the radar [TS]

00:18:40   already moments before we started [TS]

00:18:42   recording it turns out as per tradition [TS]

00:18:44   you are on the talk show what do you [TS]

00:18:47   want to talk about here either that [TS]

00:18:49   you've touched on previously or that [TS]

00:18:52   that you'd like to elaborate upon i mean [TS]

00:18:54   this is this is your show so now is the [TS]

00:18:56   time to really well not that under the [TS]

00:18:57   radar isn't you know what I mean now's [TS]

00:18:59   the time to really go deep on any of [TS]

00:19:01   this stuff or do what I expected to do [TS]

00:19:03   and say whatever [TS]

00:19:04   well I don't mean what do you guys want [TS]

00:19:06   to know like what I mean what's what do [TS]

00:19:08   you think would be interesting because [TS]

00:19:09   like you know so I'll tell you you know [TS]

00:19:11   on under-the-radar talked about kind of [TS]

00:19:13   the idea of basically had like 30 was a [TS]

00:19:17   big release in terms of like how much [TS]

00:19:20   stuff changed but it was actually not a [TS]

00:19:23   big release in terms of like here's a [TS]

00:19:25   list of features that are new but [TS]

00:19:27   they're there are very few new features [TS]

00:19:28   and it's kind of an interesting thing to [TS]

00:19:32   do of like here's a new version of this [TS]

00:19:35   app there's been tons of work to it it's [TS]

00:19:37   a lot better but I can't tell you [TS]

00:19:40   everything new in it because it's not [TS]

00:19:41   it's not that kind of better like I it's [TS]

00:19:44   basically most of the work was in [TS]

00:19:46   revamping the UI and and it doesn't even [TS]

00:19:49   see it doesn't even look incredibly [TS]

00:19:52   different than how did before it just [TS]

00:19:53   works differently in certain in certain [TS]

00:19:55   places so like you know the whole card [TS]

00:19:57   you I with the now playing screen that [TS]

00:19:59   the two-stage episode selection now at [TS]

00:20:01   the [TS]

00:20:02   Monroe in the bottom of it those are the [TS]

00:20:04   big things and then you know the queuing [TS]

00:20:06   system that goes around the whole thing [TS]

00:20:07   and and kind of like moving all the [TS]

00:20:09   actions into visible places but it in a [TS]

00:20:12   similar way that it's hard for me to to [TS]

00:20:15   come up with like a feature change list [TS]

00:20:17   of here's the big new headline features [TS]

00:20:19   it's also hard for me to come up with [TS]

00:20:20   like what should I talk about like what [TS]

00:20:23   do you want to know I don't know jack [TS]

00:20:24   remember you i will be like what do you [TS]

00:20:26   think I should be covering here [TS]

00:20:28   chatroom wants to know why swipe to [TS]

00:20:29   delete is gone and having been on data [TS]

00:20:32   for how many months i thought it will [TS]

00:20:33   all eventually get used to it will go [TS]

00:20:35   away i'm still swiping up to get [TS]

00:20:36   something else FYI i mean not that I [TS]

00:20:38   don't mind because I don't delete them [TS]

00:20:39   that often like they go away when you [TS]

00:20:41   know I still have the setting that [TS]

00:20:42   deletes them when you finish listening [TS]

00:20:43   so it's not a thing that comes up often [TS]

00:20:45   but I've done it in the past week the [TS]

00:20:48   short version of why this is the way it [TS]

00:20:50   is and then you can yell at me for an [TS]

00:20:52   hour is the old way of like you have [TS]

00:20:56   your list of episodes you could swipe [TS]

00:20:58   one of the cells and it would reveal the [TS]

00:21:00   iOS standard tableview delete button [TS]

00:21:02   along with a couple other actions like [TS]

00:21:04   there was a star for recommending and [TS]

00:21:06   there's a download button there if it [TS]

00:21:07   wasn't downloaded this has always been [TS]

00:21:09   the way to delete episodes and overcast [TS]

00:21:11   you could you could also just listen to [TS]

00:21:13   them all the way through and the default [TS]

00:21:15   settings to delete after listening I got [TS]

00:21:18   so many emails and tweets over the last [TS]

00:21:21   two and a half years since one point out [TS]

00:21:23   with people asking how grandly episodes [TS]

00:21:26   or had a way to leave a message that [TS]

00:21:28   listening to them all the way through [TS]

00:21:29   which is kind of funny if you think [TS]

00:21:31   about that means people were actually [TS]

00:21:32   like trying to place all the way through [TS]

00:21:33   just to delete them and the reason why [TS]

00:21:36   is because I thought when I was [TS]

00:21:37   designing this app that you know of [TS]

00:21:40   course everyone using an iphone knows [TS]

00:21:42   that you swipe table views to delete you [TS]

00:21:44   know that that's that's obvious [TS]

00:21:45   everyone knows that right or you tap the [TS]

00:21:47   edit button in the corner and it shows [TS]

00:21:48   that elite controls and you then usually [TS]

00:21:49   from their people don't know this a lot [TS]

00:21:52   of people don't know this and you can [TS]

00:21:54   kind of understand why because if you [TS]

00:21:56   just get an iphone and you can start [TS]

00:21:58   using it like at no point do you really [TS]

00:22:01   need that like in the rest of the iphone [TS]

00:22:04   interface doesn't really like there's [TS]

00:22:06   always also delete button somewhere or [TS]

00:22:08   something out or it's in some contexts [TS]

00:22:10   like messages where it doesn't really [TS]

00:22:11   matter you look here where you don't [TS]

00:22:13   often delete entire conversation so I [TS]

00:22:15   a lot of people who use iphones don't [TS]

00:22:19   know like the the quote standards for [TS]

00:22:21   some of the other controls for things [TS]

00:22:22   like swiping table cells to show really [TS]

00:22:24   control or hitting the edit button to to [TS]

00:22:26   show other controls whatever else does [TS]

00:22:27   Apple Mail have a way to delete yeah [TS]

00:22:29   there's there's delete buttons right on [TS]

00:22:30   the bottom toolbar a huge design goal of [TS]

00:22:33   overcast through everything my post but [TS]

00:22:35   a huge angle overcast three was [TS]

00:22:36   basically to because you know every [TS]

00:22:39   every feature that I had that was hidden [TS]

00:22:40   behind of gesture people would find and [TS]

00:22:43   they would they would write in confused [TS]

00:22:44   or mad that I didn't have this feature [TS]

00:22:46   or disappointed and so my main goal with [TS]

00:22:49   overcast three was to take all of the [TS]

00:22:51   all the things I've learned with [TS]

00:22:53   two-and-a-half years of basically [TS]

00:22:55   feedback and user testing and try to [TS]

00:22:57   address as many design flaws as possible [TS]

00:23:01   I mean there's just there's so many [TS]

00:23:03   features so much functionality that I've [TS]

00:23:05   had since one point O that a good [TS]

00:23:07   portion of my users either can't find or [TS]

00:23:09   just assume i don't have or they [TS]

00:23:11   misunderstand [TS]

00:23:12   so it was very much like a a clarifying [TS]

00:23:16   release to clarify how things work and [TS]

00:23:18   then and etc you know and I knew going [TS]

00:23:21   into it I knew that the the you know now [TS]

00:23:24   playing being this card that's coming [TS]

00:23:26   from the bottom instead of navigation [TS]

00:23:27   pane such as the right I knew that would [TS]

00:23:29   be like you know a minor thing people [TS]

00:23:30   get used to quickly but i also know and [TS]

00:23:32   even said in the post that the the like [TS]

00:23:35   new two-stage really now you tap the [TS]

00:23:37   cell and rather than immediately playing [TS]

00:23:40   the episode it shows like a little [TS]

00:23:42   action menu kind of like when you select [TS]

00:23:44   a tweet tweet pot and there's buttons [TS]

00:23:47   and one the middle button there's play [TS]

00:23:49   and then one of the 12 the far right is [TS]

00:23:51   delete and i'm a little curious from [TS]

00:23:53   people like you guys and the entire chat [TS]

00:23:56   room and many people on twitter by the [TS]

00:23:58   way i should i should say before before [TS]

00:24:00   i can make just like that the response [TS]

00:24:02   to this update has been massively [TS]

00:24:04   positive that i am very very happy with [TS]

00:24:07   the with the response it has been very [TS]

00:24:09   very positive and for something that [TS]

00:24:11   changes so many things that's a bit more [TS]

00:24:14   positive reaction than I would have [TS]

00:24:16   guessed so anyway that that aside for [TS]

00:24:19   the people who are not so positive about [TS]

00:24:21   it because of this new like now it takes [TS]

00:24:23   two taps to delete something thing it [TS]

00:24:26   always took to temporarily something [TS]

00:24:27   before it was swiped [TS]

00:24:29   tap now it's tap tap so I'm kind of [TS]

00:24:33   curious like why I mean it's different [TS]

00:24:35   but is it actually worse now you know [TS]

00:24:38   why I do that case and I shouldn't don't [TS]

00:24:40   don't give him the answer Karen downtown [TS]

00:24:41   market will explain to us why why this [TS]

00:24:44   there's get back what I I understand the [TS]

00:24:48   people who don't like there's two taps [TS]

00:24:50   to play something I understand that [TS]

00:24:52   because there was one tab before and now [TS]

00:24:54   it's too even though it's much less [TS]

00:24:55   error-prone now in the interfaces way [TS]

00:24:57   clear for everybody but why is it worse [TS]

00:25:00   to have to delete be two taps instead of [TS]

00:25:03   a swipe and tap and now the other part [TS]

00:25:05   of markets bringing around to answer [TS]

00:25:06   that question [TS]

00:25:07   good i don't know I honestly like I go I [TS]

00:25:11   know you can do it gets it i know you [TS]

00:25:12   could do it it's just different but is [TS]

00:25:14   it worse [TS]

00:25:16   nice it's actually easier to do is more [TS]

00:25:18   precise because that's what that one of [TS]

00:25:20   the reasons was that the swipe to delete [TS]

00:25:22   I would often accidentally start playing [TS]

00:25:25   the episode so let me give you my answer [TS]

00:25:28   which i think is the same as John's but [TS]

00:25:29   who knows [TS]

00:25:30   my answer is you should never ever ever [TS]

00:25:33   deviate from what is the norm on the [TS]

00:25:35   platform and so the norm on the platform [TS]

00:25:38   is if you want to do some sort of [TS]

00:25:39   destructive change like that in a quick [TS]

00:25:41   like gestural way you swipe from right [TS]

00:25:44   to left and there will be some sort of [TS]

00:25:46   destructive action that you can take [TS]

00:25:47   right then and there and like you said [TS]

00:25:49   previously Marco that's on pretty much [TS]

00:25:51   every table view in the system that [TS]

00:25:53   allows you to remove a table bureau and [TS]

00:25:56   so because i don't think this is [TS]

00:25:59   exclusively a power user thing although [TS]

00:26:01   it certainly in my mind excuse towards [TS]

00:26:04   power users but you should never fight [TS]

00:26:07   the frameworks and you which you've done [TS]

00:26:09   with this table you actually in many [TS]

00:26:10   ways [TS]

00:26:11   oh you shouldn't and you should never [TS]

00:26:13   fight the hague the human interface [TS]

00:26:14   guidelines and and I feel like you're [TS]

00:26:16   fighting the hague now I haven't beaten [TS]

00:26:18   you up about this too bad previously [TS]

00:26:20   because I understand where your head's [TS]

00:26:21   at and it makes sense to me that for the [TS]

00:26:24   overwhelming majority of users i bet you [TS]

00:26:26   anything this was a positive change but [TS]

00:26:27   for someone like me and thinking [TS]

00:26:29   completely myopically you're behaving [TS]

00:26:31   differently than the rest of the [TS]

00:26:32   platform and that feels gross in the [TS]

00:26:34   same way that you get that grossed out [TS]

00:26:36   feeling when you look at a material [TS]

00:26:38   design google app on iphone using google [TS]

00:26:41   apps on my phone [TS]

00:26:42   well [TS]

00:26:42   you know what I mean that like it's [TS]

00:26:44   that's a bit unfair comparison and a bit [TS]

00:26:46   slanders to be to be fair because you [TS]

00:26:49   are nowhere near that that out of left [TS]

00:26:51   field but it's a similar scenario right [TS]

00:26:53   where you have something that doesn't [TS]

00:26:54   quite feel right but it doesn't quite [TS]

00:26:58   feel right to a power user or even a [TS]

00:27:01   moderate power user I think to most [TS]

00:27:03   people your I I think you made the right [TS]

00:27:06   change even though it drives me batty [TS]

00:27:08   well let me let me just boil that down [TS]

00:27:10   to a more to it and a simpler more [TS]

00:27:13   visceral answer everything you said is [TS]

00:27:16   right but the result the result of that [TS]

00:27:18   is at bottom line i keep swiping things [TS]

00:27:21   that's that's the bottom line [TS]

00:27:23   after many many weeks i keep swiping and [TS]

00:27:24   it's not a big deal and that the [TS]

00:27:26   discoverability is a hundred percent [TS]

00:27:27   like I'm even though is non-standard in [TS]

00:27:30   the same way that sweet spot is [TS]

00:27:31   non-standard i like it like it is good [TS]

00:27:33   because you have a complicated [TS]

00:27:35   application and I think this is better [TS]

00:27:36   and discoverability there's no arguing [TS]

00:27:37   is that you were getting tons of [TS]

00:27:38   feedback about discoverability people [TS]

00:27:39   will find the trash cannot come on they [TS]

00:27:41   could hundred percent on that but why [TS]

00:27:43   why do people complain it's not about [TS]

00:27:45   speed is not about efficiency [TS]

00:27:47   why do I keep swiping my case he said [TS]

00:27:49   because I swipe everywhere else again [TS]

00:27:51   can't convince my stupid thumbs not to [TS]

00:27:52   swipe and and everything you said about [TS]

00:27:56   why you and why you added the bar and [TS]

00:27:58   discoverability all that's a hundred [TS]

00:27:59   percent true but exactly in the same way [TS]

00:28:01   that that a underscore convince you to [TS]

00:28:05   make a sideways so that swype [TS]

00:28:06   inexplicably do a thing that should [TS]

00:28:08   totally not do this because that's the [TS]

00:28:09   way the old one work you keep the same [TS]

00:28:11   controls exactly where they are but if [TS]

00:28:14   my finger stupid swype so the umpteenth [TS]

00:28:16   time just let it delete but that's all [TS]

00:28:18   I'm asking for like keep exactly the [TS]

00:28:20   same stuff that's in there now make a [TS]

00:28:22   discovery also and so forth but for the [TS]

00:28:24   admittedly very small handful of people [TS]

00:28:27   and that's why this is not a big deal [TS]

00:28:28   that's why three-point always in that [TS]

00:28:29   win no matter what even if you never had [TS]

00:28:31   this feature back but for the small [TS]

00:28:33   handful of people who are either on this [TS]

00:28:34   podcast with your in chatroom stupid [TS]

00:28:38   thumbs keep swiping [TS]

00:28:39   this is another case to do one of those [TS]

00:28:41   features just like the one was referring [TS]

00:28:44   to the underscore talk you into which [TS]

00:28:45   was the old gesture was to get rid of [TS]

00:28:47   now playing you could swipe the side [TS]

00:28:48   even though the new one comes up from [TS]

00:28:49   the bottom you still made swipe the side [TS]

00:28:51   work because it's no skin off else's [TS]

00:28:53   back no one else is going to discover it [TS]

00:28:54   except for people have muscle [TS]

00:28:56   i'm here from the old overcast guess [TS]

00:28:57   what I can make that work for you to now [TS]

00:28:58   maybe a pain in the butt to make swipe [TS]

00:29:00   to delete work in the context of [TS]

00:29:03   whatever unholy things that you've done [TS]

00:29:04   to the table view to make it so super [TS]

00:29:06   custom and by the way i love the fact [TS]

00:29:07   that you can reorder now with the little [TS]

00:29:09   grippy tabs everywhere so you know again [TS]

00:29:11   it's totally a net win but for this tiny [TS]

00:29:13   little minor feature you know it would [TS]

00:29:16   be neat if the old muscle memory still [TS]

00:29:18   worked and i guess i'll probably [TS]

00:29:20   eventually get you stuff but I thought [TS]

00:29:21   whatever got used to it by now and I [TS]

00:29:23   think it's exactly what case he said if [TS]

00:29:25   the whole rest of the system is training [TS]

00:29:27   me again and again to swipe to delete [TS]

00:29:28   it's very difficult to sort of [TS]

00:29:30   contextual the untrained myself from [TS]

00:29:32   that gesture on something that looks for [TS]

00:29:34   all the world like a table view as a [TS]

00:29:36   general rule use standard gestures [TS]

00:29:37   people are familiar with the standard [TS]

00:29:39   gestures and don't appreciate being [TS]

00:29:40   forced to learn different ways to do the [TS]

00:29:41   same thing in games another immersive [TS]

00:29:43   apps custom gestures can be a fun part [TS]

00:29:45   of the experience and other apps it's [TS]

00:29:46   best to use the standard gesture so [TS]

00:29:48   extra effort isn't needed to discover or [TS]

00:29:49   remember them straight out of the hague [TS]

00:29:51   all right so you guys make good points i [TS]

00:29:55   don't i don't disagree with a lot of [TS]

00:29:56   what you're saying I actually the idea [TS]

00:29:58   of doing both of adding the swipes back [TS]

00:30:02   actually never occurred to me until this [TS]

00:30:04   moment there is probably something I'm [TS]

00:30:08   doing to that table view that would make [TS]

00:30:10   that probably not work well you don't [TS]

00:30:13   like growing glitches come on that's [TS]

00:30:15   also part of the fun [TS]

00:30:16   i will try it because I I admit like if [TS]

00:30:19   I can do that with with no horrible side [TS]

00:30:21   effects then it is kind of a no-brainer [TS]

00:30:24   to offer that affords to have both like [TS]

00:30:26   little orange bar appear as the thing [TS]

00:30:28   above it swipe sideways in the orange [TS]

00:30:29   bar starts to get clipped and filled [TS]

00:30:31   with me so awesome [TS]

00:30:32   you have no idea what I've done to poor [TS]

00:30:34   uitableview and I would yeah whatever [TS]

00:30:36   tweet but did I same type of thing like [TS]

00:30:38   this and to be fair like I don't have to [TS]

00:30:41   but was the originator of this thing but [TS]

00:30:42   a lot of applications do this where they [TS]

00:30:44   were they want to have more stuff for [TS]

00:30:47   you to do a tableview they can't all fit [TS]

00:30:50   under magic edit button where you go [TS]

00:30:51   into a mode right and so they do this [TS]

00:30:53   thing where it reveals more controls [TS]

00:30:56   when you tap the thing I think that [TS]

00:30:57   itself even though it's not a nigger [TS]

00:30:59   whatever is kind of standard and tried [TS]

00:31:01   and true but since you can't delete the [TS]

00:31:02   tweet tweet but never had to deal with [TS]

00:31:04   like as you can [TS]

00:31:05   speaking with you can't believe its weak [TS]

00:31:06   but it's that was sweet but doing you [TS]

00:31:08   swipe I guess I don't delete [TS]

00:31:09   sweet as often as i type i think is view [TS]

00:31:11   conversation yeah then there's two [TS]

00:31:12   different directions one of the few [TS]

00:31:13   times you know i think is favorite oh [TS]

00:31:15   that's right they used both directions [TS]

00:31:16   for the for the yeah yeah no I mean so [TS]

00:31:20   okay so there's a number of things to [TS]

00:31:22   respond to hear one of them is when [TS]

00:31:26   you're thinking about like how this app [TS]

00:31:28   should be or how this thing should be [TS]

00:31:29   actually like you know work through the [TS]

00:31:32   entire thing in your head to see like [TS]

00:31:33   you know maybe like to maybe think like [TS]

00:31:36   maybe there's a reason why doesn't that [TS]

00:31:37   way right or maybe that would present [TS]

00:31:39   more challenges and then we often just [TS]

00:31:41   like we're trying to like you know as as [TS]

00:31:43   our armchair people trying to tell Apple [TS]

00:31:45   what to do [TS]

00:31:46   like what if they did that like how [TS]

00:31:47   would that what are the other [TS]

00:31:48   ramifications of that so if if I didn't [TS]

00:31:52   do the button bar thing if I kept the [TS]

00:31:53   Delete in there [TS]

00:31:54   what other way that how else could i [TS]

00:31:57   make it actually discoverable people and [TS]

00:31:59   so the way that the Apple has to do with [TS]

00:32:01   that are all that you know you're [TS]

00:32:02   reading from the Higgs if this is the [TS]

00:32:03   gospel well get to that next but the way [TS]

00:32:06   they do it is on the resulting screen so [TS]

00:32:09   its look at mail mail is always a good [TS]

00:32:11   example of like standard UI kit [TS]

00:32:13   stop it is always good inspiration a [TS]

00:32:15   reference point for that so look at mail [TS]

00:32:17   with male you open the message as if you [TS]

00:32:20   see if you assume that you don't know [TS]

00:32:21   how to swype on table cells to delete [TS]

00:32:24   things which most people don't [TS]

00:32:25   if you open the message in the message [TS]

00:32:27   window there's delete button so if you [TS]

00:32:30   don't know how to stop on the table view [TS]

00:32:31   you're still seeing delete buttons all [TS]

00:32:33   the time so if I were to go down this [TS]

00:32:36   path with overcast intent to have to to [TS]

00:32:40   have like you know single tap to open [TS]

00:32:42   the message and to have a swipe offer [TS]

00:32:45   the delete or you know sales have to be [TS]

00:32:47   completed by the way had before [TS]

00:32:49   how else could i make delete more [TS]

00:32:52   discoverable so one way to do it would [TS]

00:32:54   be if i put delete in the info pane [TS]

00:32:56   which I could do what I forget whether I [TS]

00:32:58   did it or not but I could do that you [TS]

00:33:00   have delete be one of the buttons in the [TS]

00:33:01   info pane but in typical playback you're [TS]

00:33:05   not using the info pane typical playback [TS]

00:33:07   you're hitting the episode then it [TS]

00:33:09   begins playing in the screen if it's [TS]

00:33:10   this way and so it would have to be in [TS]

00:33:13   the now playing screen so now look at [TS]

00:33:15   the now playing screen where I put it [TS]

00:33:18   no no one's arguing that you should get [TS]

00:33:21   rid of the bar at least I'm certainly [TS]

00:33:22   wasn't I told me you okay people are you [TS]

00:33:24   have to it's different but I'm saying [TS]

00:33:26   like batting swipe to delete as a [TS]

00:33:29   shortcut for the people who happen to [TS]

00:33:30   know which is it definitely a tiny [TS]

00:33:32   detail nice to have thing that is not [TS]

00:33:33   essential for a three-point know that's [TS]

00:33:35   why i said the bar is obviously an [TS]

00:33:36   improvement like just you know hundred [TS]

00:33:38   percent and in fact I think you can it's [TS]

00:33:41   not obvious to a lot of people on [TS]

00:33:42   twitter at well that I think that the [TS]

00:33:47   other thing the bar it gives you looking [TS]

00:33:48   at it is i don't know how much metrics [TS]

00:33:51   are collecting in terms of usage but you [TS]

00:33:53   have a lot of room [TS]

00:33:54   not a lot at and I don't know what a how [TS]

00:33:59   common the you know add to playlist you [TS]

00:34:01   know the plus hamburger thing and the [TS]

00:34:04   star thing are or even the shit like you [TS]

00:34:07   have enough room to actually use that [TS]

00:34:09   bar as a place to highlight new features [TS]

00:34:11   in 4.0 or whatever as they come [TS]

00:34:15   and I think it's important to have a [TS]

00:34:16   moment like that and burying it under [TS]

00:34:18   info or putting on the now playing [TS]

00:34:19   screeching halt much worse this is [TS]

00:34:21   merely a question of and I don't [TS]

00:34:23   understand how this is spun out into the [TS]

00:34:24   giant big thing is this is such a minor [TS]

00:34:26   thing like this is not a problem with [TS]

00:34:28   the application at all it's just like [TS]

00:34:30   it's a problem with my thumb still doing [TS]

00:34:32   a thing and I'm just exploring why it [TS]

00:34:33   might do that is to continue to provide [TS]

00:34:36   affordances for the tiny amount of [TS]

00:34:38   people who who are used to or their [TS]

00:34:42   thumbs are used to doing a certain thing [TS]

00:34:44   in a way that doesn't attract it all [TS]

00:34:46   from the increased discoverability [TS]

00:34:48   provided by the little bar if people [TS]

00:34:49   arguing against the bar entirely to go [TS]

00:34:51   back to the old way I think they [TS]

00:34:52   probably doesn't have been using the app [TS]

00:34:54   long enough because when i first started [TS]

00:34:55   using with a little bar to it feels [TS]

00:34:57   weird you used to using overcast for at [TS]

00:34:58   this point like 10 years right [TS]

00:35:00   use the tapping to play a thing and you [TS]

00:35:02   tap the play thing in the podcast [TS]

00:35:03   doesn't start playing that's something I [TS]

00:35:07   got used to and it's not as if the first [TS]

00:35:10   type doesn't do anything [TS]

00:35:11   the first step reveals the bar so it's [TS]

00:35:12   not like with swiping where the swiping [TS]

00:35:14   just literally does nothing does not [TS]

00:35:15   give you any progress towards your [TS]

00:35:17   delete action you're trying to perform [TS]

00:35:18   tapping reveals the bar you have a [TS]

00:35:21   visual cue that there's something else [TS]

00:35:22   that you have to do and usually i'm [TS]

00:35:24   doing playlist anyway so just playing [TS]

00:35:25   one after the other so it's not a big [TS]

00:35:26   deal [TS]

00:35:27   yeah I again I until this podcast did [TS]

00:35:30   not even consider the idea of leaving [TS]

00:35:31   the swine [TS]

00:35:32   buttons in and also leaving the bar in [TS]

00:35:34   so I i actually I'm gonna go to see if I [TS]

00:35:37   can do that easily without massive [TS]

00:35:39   horrible side effects because of my [TS]

00:35:40   table you abuse that you have in the old [TS]

00:35:42   1i don't even know if you had this did [TS]

00:35:44   you have the mail style SuperDuper swipe [TS]

00:35:46   it was like three buttons over there [TS]

00:35:48   yeah I had that like where you go all [TS]

00:35:50   the way to the end just deletes it [TS]

00:35:51   oh no that was never made available it [TS]

00:35:53   male always that whatever tableview male [TS]

00:35:56   uses always gets cool features like that [TS]

00:35:59   before they're available in the public [TS]

00:36:00   API so like like they they had the first [TS]

00:36:03   action buttons there for I think an [TS]

00:36:04   entire iOS version before it was easy to [TS]

00:36:06   do that you do that with other ways and [TS]

00:36:08   and then they later once they gave us [TS]

00:36:11   the API to make those action buttons [TS]

00:36:12   then mail got the ability to have the [TS]

00:36:14   full drag all the way across four delete [TS]

00:36:16   and I've I don't they ever made [TS]

00:36:17   available to anybody but that's a cool [TS]

00:36:19   feature i hope it doesn't come to table [TS]

00:36:21   views because it's it's definitely like [TS]

00:36:23   they were getting into the realm of like [TS]

00:36:24   not expert features but features that [TS]

00:36:27   hopefully never bother anybody [TS]

00:36:30   if you don't know they exist but once [TS]

00:36:31   you know they exist it becomes like [TS]

00:36:33   addictive to be able to goshen just you [TS]

00:36:35   know knockout think the only thing i [TS]

00:36:36   don't like about that feature is that if [TS]

00:36:38   you swipe up if you swipe mail messages [TS]

00:36:41   left there's an unread option is on the [TS]

00:36:43   side which does anything like you swipe [TS]

00:36:44   hard enough and just mark and right [TS]

00:36:45   that's cool if you swipe it right you [TS]

00:36:48   have that super mode where if you try to [TS]

00:36:50   far enough to just delete it and if and [TS]

00:36:52   far most button is trash but the other [TS]

00:36:54   two buttons that offers are more and [TS]

00:36:56   flag and so if you're opening that menu [TS]

00:37:00   in order to flag the message that's kind [TS]

00:37:03   of the opposite of putting in the trash [TS]

00:37:04   but if you drag just very slightly too [TS]

00:37:07   far and open the message up to delete it [TS]

00:37:09   yeah it's it's a fine line with the with [TS]

00:37:11   the swiping well it's it's a bad [TS]

00:37:13   decision like to me i think that that [TS]

00:37:15   everything that's not trash should be on [TS]

00:37:18   the other direction swipe menu if [TS]

00:37:19   they're gonna do that but if you're [TS]

00:37:20   going to have this all the way swipe [TS]

00:37:22   gesture because it's too easy to do this [TS]

00:37:25   destructive action when you're trying to [TS]

00:37:27   do flag or more i have the opposite [TS]

00:37:29   problem where i guess im to lazy with [TS]

00:37:32   the swipe and I wanted to delete it but [TS]

00:37:34   it didn't quite go far enough and have [TS]

00:37:36   to give a second attempt on it but i can [TS]

00:37:37   see the opposite being church with is [TS]

00:37:38   definitely with anything gestural that's [TS]

00:37:40   the problem [TS]

00:37:41   that's the good thing about the bathroom [TS]

00:37:42   i just really feel so good when they're [TS]

00:37:43   right but you get it's like game [TS]

00:37:45   controlling the video game you get a [TS]

00:37:46   little bit wrong and because it's not a [TS]

00:37:49   precise thing because it is inherently a [TS]

00:37:51   fuzzy thing it's really difficult to get [TS]

00:37:53   sort of the you know the control scheme [TS]

00:37:54   just right for everybody and everybody's [TS]

00:37:56   a little bit different as opposed to the [TS]

00:37:58   much more analytical world of pointers [TS]

00:38:01   and mouse control and how big targets [TS]

00:38:03   have to be you can it it's easier to [TS]

00:38:06   measure that is generally a more precise [TS]

00:38:08   thing although you know you mean you did [TS]

00:38:10   the basics here for the little bar [TS]

00:38:11   trashes far away from the play button [TS]

00:38:14   play is not all out a lasting traction [TS]

00:38:16   all around the right because the middle [TS]

00:38:17   is easier to hit the edges of the screen [TS]

00:38:18   like it's even you know that everything [TS]

00:38:21   you've just described about the [TS]

00:38:22   ergonomics of where items are in [TS]

00:38:24   relation to each other and how easy it [TS]

00:38:25   is to accidently is revealed in the bar [TS]

00:38:27   don't think you can maybe argue about is [TS]

00:38:29   whether the center is appropriate for [TS]

00:38:31   play but i think it is [TS]

00:38:34   yeah yeah I'd that i don't i don't think [TS]

00:38:36   i would hear any arguments about that i [TS]

00:38:38   think it again it's like it's like if [TS]

00:38:40   you think about where where else would [TS]

00:38:41   you put these things like it you come to [TS]

00:38:43   pretty similar conclusions i think with [TS]

00:38:45   a lot of this stuff anyway so yeah i'll [TS]

00:38:48   look into the double gesture thing [TS]

00:38:49   because that that that does make some [TS]

00:38:50   sense i do want to address though the [TS]

00:38:52   the whole like you know Hague adherence [TS]

00:38:55   to standards everything else as as [TS]

00:38:58   gospel at apple and and for those who [TS]

00:39:01   don't know his the human interface [TS]

00:39:03   guidelines it's been a document apple [TS]

00:39:04   has published forever [TS]

00:39:06   I and they revise it over time with new [TS]

00:39:08   os's and a new you know new knowledge [TS]

00:39:10   but basically it's like how it's like [TS]

00:39:13   the standards for how your interface [TS]

00:39:14   should look at work and be laid out it [TS]

00:39:17   for apples platforms over the years has [TS]

00:39:20   always been to debate over the hague and [TS]

00:39:21   whether it's okay to violate it went ok [TS]

00:39:24   to violate it and it's I think it's [TS]

00:39:26   similar to like rules of grammar for [TS]

00:39:29   poetry you know I think it's like you're [TS]

00:39:32   allowed to violate the heck if you if [TS]

00:39:33   you know what you're doing and you have [TS]

00:39:35   good reason [TS]

00:39:36   basically or you know like it's not like [TS]

00:39:38   the set in stone thing it and apple [TS]

00:39:41   violates the hague all the time with [TS]

00:39:43   their own apps like the they blatantly [TS]

00:39:45   violated and they don't care because [TS]

00:39:48   they think they know better and in many [TS]

00:39:51   cases that's true i am a developer for [TS]

00:39:55   years I said I'm not a designer [TS]

00:39:58   and when it became clear to me that I [TS]

00:40:01   was doing the vast majority of the [TS]

00:40:03   design in my apps i stop saying that I [TS]

00:40:06   think now no matter what anyone else [TS]

00:40:08   says I think of myself as an app [TS]

00:40:11   developer and designer combo in one even [TS]

00:40:14   though I'm not as good at the design [TS]

00:40:15   part of them the development part I now [TS]

00:40:17   do both of those rules i think that i [TS]

00:40:20   now have a good enough design sense that [TS]

00:40:23   I I can judge or I I can kind of have [TS]

00:40:28   some leeway in deciding when to break a [TS]

00:40:31   standard rule and it doesn't always work [TS]

00:40:33   sometimes after all back I have lots of [TS]

00:40:35   crazy ideas and make them are awful but [TS]

00:40:37   i think i now have earned myself the [TS]

00:40:41   right to break rules sometimes because [TS]

00:40:44   the fact is in order to do good design [TS]

00:40:47   and especially order to move things [TS]

00:40:48   forward you have to break the rules the [TS]

00:40:51   rules were never written to be gospel [TS]

00:40:53   they were never written to be here two [TS]

00:40:54   hundred percent at as soon as any [TS]

00:40:57   version of the pig is published Apple [TS]

00:40:59   already has apps out there that violated [TS]

00:41:01   all over the place because the hey guys [TS]

00:41:04   it's kind of like using stock UI kit [TS]

00:41:06   controls with stock themes on them it's [TS]

00:41:09   like you can do that for most people [TS]

00:41:11   that's a reasonable default that's a [TS]

00:41:13   good starting place if you aren't [TS]

00:41:15   confident whether you can break the [TS]

00:41:17   rules you should just do that like [TS]

00:41:18   that's that's fine but it's also nice to [TS]

00:41:22   have apps that don't follow all the [TS]

00:41:23   rules they push things forward or they [TS]

00:41:25   do things differently and that is how [TS]

00:41:27   progress made and that is often it that [TS]

00:41:31   often is necessary to result in an [TS]

00:41:33   overall better designer better more [TS]

00:41:35   usable app yeah you know I think of it [TS]

00:41:40   is that to me the best user interface is [TS]

00:41:43   one you don't have to think about right [TS]

00:41:44   the in it just feels frictionless that [TS]

00:41:47   that things are where you expect them to [TS]

00:41:49   be as an example as an unrelated example [TS]

00:41:51   in in my car I feel like everything is [TS]

00:41:57   where I expected to be even within I [TS]

00:42:00   Drive which a lot of people hate it [TS]

00:42:03   makes sense to my brain [TS]

00:42:04   maybe it doesn't to yours or to whomever [TS]

00:42:06   is what makes sense to me into the best [TS]

00:42:08   and eat like I said the best user [TS]

00:42:09   interfaces when you don't think about [TS]

00:42:11   and the moment I have to think about [TS]

00:42:13   that user interface about how I ain't [TS]

00:42:15   accomplish a task then I'm i'm [TS]

00:42:18   experiencing friction and I'm taken out [TS]

00:42:21   of the moment of what i'm trying to do [TS]

00:42:23   and we were beat me up a lot about this [TS]

00:42:26   yo swipe to delete thing because I i [TS]

00:42:29   think i speak for John and saying my [TS]

00:42:30   natural gut reaction is to just [TS]

00:42:32   immediately swipe and then i have to [TS]

00:42:34   think wait no no this is a place that [TS]

00:42:36   doesn't work [TS]

00:42:38   Oh what do I do oh yeah I tap and then I [TS]

00:42:41   tap again well that's fine it's just a [TS]

00:42:43   guy can't work the way I expected to and [TS]

00:42:46   that doesn't really negate anything you [TS]

00:42:49   said about how the big isn't it it's not [TS]

00:42:53   laws its guidelines you know a was a [TS]

00:42:56   stupid movie part of the Caribbean style [TS]

00:42:58   but I don't know it takes someone who is [TS]

00:43:03   very confident and with a lot of skill [TS]

00:43:05   like you had said to violate it in ways [TS]

00:43:07   that make sense like somebody in the [TS]

00:43:08   chatroom I already lost it was noted [TS]

00:43:11   that pole to refresh wasn't in the hague [TS]

00:43:14   and that's a perfect example of of [TS]

00:43:17   something that wasn't in the human [TS]

00:43:18   interface guidelines but just made [TS]

00:43:19   freakin sense and and that was a great [TS]

00:43:21   choice but other times i think you have [TS]

00:43:26   to be very confident and very very sure [TS]

00:43:29   you're right in order to get away with [TS]

00:43:30   violating it I think that the Higgs [TS]

00:43:33   changed over the years time for me to do [TS]

00:43:34   more old man stuff here when you guys [TS]

00:43:38   talk about the heck you're talking about [TS]

00:43:39   like the umpteenth iteration in the [TS]

00:43:42   modern era I know you guys started with [TS]

00:43:43   apple before iOS but not much before [TS]

00:43:45   like three years before something right [TS]

00:43:48   the human interface guidelines used to [TS]

00:43:50   be very very different than they than [TS]

00:43:52   they are now one thing that they shared [TS]

00:43:54   as the thing that you're talking about [TS]

00:43:55   Casey in the beginning part of what was [TS]

00:43:59   revolutionary about both the mac and the [TS]

00:44:01   human interface guidelines that came [TS]

00:44:02   along with it is the South the selling [TS]

00:44:05   point of the mac and a selling point of [TS]

00:44:06   the graphical user interface was there [TS]

00:44:08   will be a standard set of controls and a [TS]

00:44:10   standard guidelines for how to use them [TS]

00:44:12   so that if you learned how to use one [TS]

00:44:14   program on [TS]

00:44:15   Mac you can go to another program and [TS]

00:44:18   reuse a lot of those skills because they [TS]

00:44:20   would also have a menu bar with [TS]

00:44:21   pull-down menus it also use the same [TS]

00:44:23   command keys for things would also have [TS]

00:44:24   windows with the button at the [TS]

00:44:26   confirmation but on the right in the [TS]

00:44:27   cancel button on the left and all you [TS]

00:44:29   know the whole nine yards interface [TS]

00:44:31   consistency which was a revolutionary [TS]

00:44:33   and novel thing in an age when on das [TS]

00:44:36   use word star and it had absolutely [TS]

00:44:38   nothing in its interface in common with [TS]

00:44:41   wordperfect or whatever some other [TS]

00:44:42   contemporary even though they're both [TS]

00:44:43   word processors they didn't copy and [TS]

00:44:45   paste Texas and within format the same [TS]

00:44:47   way that the same menu structure to use [TS]

00:44:48   and keys [TS]

00:44:49   it was like I know WordStar can i [TS]

00:44:51   transfer those skills over to it you [TS]

00:44:53   could transfer your basic skills of [TS]

00:44:54   knowing where the keys are in the [TS]

00:44:55   keyboard and maybe if you're lucky that [TS]

00:44:58   they shared something about how their [TS]

00:45:00   interface work but they rapidly diverge [TS]

00:45:02   whereas you use Microsoft Word or mac [TS]

00:45:05   right is you know some of the menus for [TS]

00:45:08   the same there was a font menu is the [TS]

00:45:10   font sizing the fact that was menu bar [TS]

00:45:12   at all like that and just in general [TS]

00:45:14   using anything on the Mac you were able [TS]

00:45:17   to take the skills that you learn and [TS]

00:45:19   build on them to more rapidly get up to [TS]

00:45:21   speed and other updates that's the whole [TS]

00:45:23   point of the interface guidelines and [TS]

00:45:24   the way the document was different [TS]

00:45:26   is that especially in the beginning it [TS]

00:45:29   did way way less of explaining to you [TS]

00:45:32   how things should look for what you [TS]

00:45:35   should do and way way more of explaining [TS]

00:45:38   the reasoning behind it do this with [TS]

00:45:41   your whatever is because and then [TS]

00:45:43   explain the philosophy behind it and [TS]

00:45:45   very often that philosophy had had more [TS]

00:45:47   of a foundation on you know user testing [TS]

00:45:50   stuff look at The Hague today even even [TS]

00:45:53   just the first like aqua big for for Mac [TS]

00:45:56   os10 so much of it is about how big the [TS]

00:45:59   border should be between items like I [TS]

00:46:01   mean this is even talk about like sighs [TS]

00:46:03   minimum size of touch targets but just [TS]

00:46:04   like this is how you should lay out your [TS]

00:46:05   dialogue this is how far away buttons [TS]

00:46:07   label should be from their fields and [TS]

00:46:09   buttons should be from there whatever [TS]

00:46:10   this is how to hold this should be and [TS]

00:46:11   this is how much padding that should be [TS]

00:46:12   all things like that's all great and you [TS]

00:46:14   should totally have that interface [TS]

00:46:15   builder should do it for you [TS]

00:46:16   automatically which they added you know [TS]

00:46:18   like that's all fine but that does not [TS]

00:46:20   tell me why and that is how things [TS]

00:46:23   should look which is related to how they [TS]

00:46:25   work very often in terms of the size of [TS]

00:46:28   of touch targets and readability and why [TS]

00:46:30   labels that are aligned this way easier [TS]

00:46:32   to scan all the stuff but there's less [TS]

00:46:35   of the less of the philosophy lesson of [TS]

00:46:38   like let me just complain explain to the [TS]

00:46:40   concepts and here are some guidelines [TS]

00:46:41   but now you see these guidelines see [TS]

00:46:44   here's the concepts that that they flow [TS]

00:46:45   out of and when you're provided with the [TS]

00:46:47   concepts and actually given more free [TS]

00:46:49   rein in the old days to say follow these [TS]

00:46:52   these concepts in your custom interfaces [TS]

00:46:55   and yours will feel like ours rather [TS]

00:46:57   than saying just use our controls [TS]

00:46:59   because that's the only way you could [TS]

00:47:00   possibly do this the new ones feel more [TS]

00:47:02   like make your applications look like [TS]

00:47:04   ours down to the pixel use our standard [TS]

00:47:07   controls and we were really explain to [TS]

00:47:11   the reasons why is why is this alignment [TS]

00:47:13   or the spacing beneficial why should you [TS]

00:47:15   phrase the words in the dialogue in this [TS]

00:47:18   manner whether it's imperative why [TS]

00:47:19   should use verbs or buttons or why [TS]

00:47:21   should you know like the whole lot why [TS]

00:47:23   should you not use differently styled [TS]

00:47:24   text and you know they were used to have [TS]

00:47:26   reasons for it they would say when our [TS]

00:47:27   testing we found you put a bunch of old [TS]

00:47:28   words and dialogue that's all people [TS]

00:47:30   read so don't make bold words make [TS]

00:47:32   everything in the same consistent fine [TS]

00:47:33   just making this up this is not a real [TS]

00:47:34   thing but like to explain the reasoning [TS]

00:47:36   behind things that I feel like has been [TS]

00:47:39   lacking and because that's lacking I [TS]

00:47:42   feel like the human interface guidelines [TS]

00:47:44   for iOS and for the mac are way less [TS]

00:47:46   authoritative now in terms of how how [TS]

00:47:51   developers should take them like just [TS]

00:47:53   because it's in the hague that it's just [TS]

00:47:55   one other persons are a couple other [TS]

00:47:57   people's ideas and it's important for [TS]

00:47:58   you to know what they expect from you [TS]

00:47:59   from construction from consistent for [TS]

00:48:01   the sake of consistency with the other [TS]

00:48:03   applications but they're not going to [TS]

00:48:05   explain their reasoning and you suspect [TS]

00:48:06   that you might have a better way I think [TS]

00:48:08   you're much more likely today to [TS]

00:48:10   actually have a better way then you are [TS]

00:48:12   back in the old days where a nobody knew [TS]

00:48:15   anything and be Apple do so much more [TS]

00:48:17   than everybody else because developers [TS]

00:48:19   were coming up on the first time and [TS]

00:48:21   happily said put many many years into it [TS]

00:48:23   and they were you know the world's [TS]

00:48:25   leading experts on making [TS]

00:48:26   consumer-facing personal computer gooeys [TS]

00:48:28   for a very long time and they would they [TS]

00:48:31   would show their work they would say [TS]

00:48:32   here's why here's why we're doing all [TS]

00:48:33   this stuff and you really go well that [TS]

00:48:36   makes sense and if they said they did a [TS]

00:48:37   bunch of user testing you have a user [TS]

00:48:39   experience lab for you to test this [TS]

00:48:40   stuff [TS]

00:48:41   I have you hey product resident from [TS]

00:48:44   that from the jobs error was seemed like [TS]

00:48:47   he was much less of a fan of you know [TS]

00:48:49   the scientific method and user testing [TS]

00:48:51   and much more of a fan of using his gut [TS]

00:48:52   and it's got was pretty good but [TS]

00:48:54   sometimes you got like you know [TS]

00:48:56   stretch-leather and stuff so yeah anyway [TS]

00:48:59   uh oh [TS]

00:49:00   all this is to say that I have you know [TS]

00:49:04   I i put much less take in the end apples [TS]

00:49:06   human interface guidelines now than I [TS]

00:49:07   did many decades ago but the guideline [TS]

00:49:12   that you know that the the guiding [TS]

00:49:13   principle i think every developer uses [TS]

00:49:15   who's making their applications is to [TS]

00:49:19   try to make it fit in with what the user [TS]

00:49:21   expects again like if you made a mac [TS]

00:49:23   application and you didn't have a menu [TS]

00:49:24   bar or you're like the file and edit [TS]

00:49:26   menus were in the opposite order even if [TS]

00:49:28   you think you have a really good reason [TS]

00:49:29   for that [TS]

00:49:30   it's probably not a good idea but if you [TS]

00:49:32   want to put different items in your file [TS]

00:49:34   menu as long as quick as at the bottom [TS]

00:49:35   if you're really old that's where used [TS]

00:49:37   to be everybody is always quit the [TS]

00:49:38   bottom people are okay with your shotgun [TS]

00:49:40   and a few other items and when and you [TS]

00:49:42   know third-party applications like Marco [TS]

00:49:45   said push the interface story because [TS]

00:49:47   the Apple can't cover all your possible [TS]

00:49:48   scenario so photoshop starts doing [TS]

00:49:50   something and photoshop does it for 25 [TS]

00:49:52   years eventually [TS]

00:49:54   well that's in the human interface [TS]

00:49:55   guidelines not if you're making graphics [TS]

00:49:56   application it would be a good idea for [TS]

00:49:59   you to perhaps take a few conventions [TS]

00:50:01   from Photoshop because it's so important [TS]

00:50:03   in its field and I think it's the same [TS]

00:50:05   way a lot of Twitter clients get away [TS]

00:50:07   with the sideswipes which I don't know [TS]

00:50:08   who invented that but it's all over the [TS]

00:50:09   place and Twitter clients up because if [TS]

00:50:12   you use a lot of our clients eventually [TS]

00:50:14   that's what you get used to and in the [TS]

00:50:15   realm of podcasts apps i feel like if [TS]

00:50:17   you use a lot of podcasts apps i don't [TS]

00:50:19   use a lot of them but I imagine there [TS]

00:50:20   are some conventions for controlling [TS]

00:50:22   things that they would have some [TS]

00:50:24   commonality between the you begin to [TS]

00:50:25   read read landscape and get used to [TS]

00:50:28   using how do you want every time of [TS]

00:50:29   application to be different but where [TS]

00:50:33   you start falling back to the bedrock of [TS]

00:50:35   expectation is that for things like [TS]

00:50:36   muscle memory and you know the fact that [TS]

00:50:39   using a table view at all and the fact [TS]

00:50:41   that you know that the transitions [TS]

00:50:42   between things sort of mental and [TS]

00:50:43   spatial model of how the application [TS]

00:50:45   flows from left to right and for coming [TS]

00:50:47   up for [TS]

00:50:47   bottom also judgment calls to make their [TS]

00:50:49   but in general you try to keep it [TS]

00:50:51   consistent and you know if you miss one [TS]

00:50:55   little tiny corner where now-deleted [TS]

00:50:57   works a little bit differently it's [TS]

00:50:58   probably not a big deal especially since [TS]

00:51:00   the elite is probably not a common [TS]

00:51:01   operation that's no but it's if it's a [TS]

00:51:03   place where you can if it's a place [TS]

00:51:06   where you can return that uh where you [TS]

00:51:09   can fulfill that expectation in a way [TS]

00:51:12   that lets you retain all the other [TS]

00:51:14   benefits it's a pretty clean one [TS]

00:51:16   I mean I i would question even more of [TS]

00:51:18   the feature you do have their with your [TS]

00:51:19   memory for was like being able to [TS]

00:51:21   dismiss the thing that comes up from the [TS]

00:51:22   bottom by sliding sideways makes not [TS]

00:51:25   much sense no spatially speaking as [TS]

00:51:27   probably miss feature the only reason [TS]

00:51:29   it's there is to honor the muscle memory [TS]

00:51:31   of users of your specific application [TS]

00:51:33   because if you didn't ever use the [TS]

00:51:35   previous version overcast you would [TS]

00:51:37   never expect that to work you would [TS]

00:51:38   never even try it right but you're just [TS]

00:51:40   doing that to just give a little help to [TS]

00:51:41   those people I think this is the same [TS]

00:51:43   category of things in fact i would i [TS]

00:51:45   would trade these in terms of what is [TS]

00:51:47   more beneficial in the long run i would [TS]

00:51:49   say if i had to sacrifice once you don't [TS]

00:51:51   you just keep both of them but if I had [TS]

00:51:53   to sacrifice one I would say besides [TS]

00:51:54   what people will get used to the card [TS]

00:51:55   coming for the bottom pretty quick and [TS]

00:51:58   it's just a gesture in a different [TS]

00:51:59   direction whereas the swipe to delete [TS]

00:52:01   others are still being trained by the [TS]

00:52:03   whole rest of their entire iOS device to [TS]

00:52:05   keep doing that responsive tonight by [TS]

00:52:09   warby parker to start your free home [TS]

00:52:11   try-on today go to worry Parker calm / [TS]

00:52:14   ATP worry Parker believes that I glasses [TS]

00:52:17   should not cost as much as a phone they [TS]

00:52:20   have prescription eyeglasses starting [TS]

00:52:21   just $95 including prescription lenses [TS]

00:52:24   and they make buying glasses online easy [TS]

00:52:27   and risk-free sounds kind of crazy but [TS]

00:52:30   here's how they do it they had this home [TS]

00:52:31   try-on program [TS]

00:52:32   this allows you to order up to five [TS]

00:52:34   pairs of eyeglasses and you a ship new [TS]

00:52:36   for free and you try them on for five [TS]

00:52:39   days with no obligation to buy when [TS]

00:52:41   you're done you shipping back in the [TS]

00:52:43   free prepaid return label you're out no [TS]

00:52:46   money for this whole process and again [TS]

00:52:48   no obligation to buy if you want to buy [TS]

00:52:49   of course to make it very very easy they [TS]

00:52:51   have a or Parker app from the app store [TS]

00:52:53   also as a home trying companion feature [TS]

00:52:56   which allows you to quickly take photos [TS]

00:52:57   you can wait wearing all the frames that [TS]

00:52:59   you're trying on you can stitch into a [TS]

00:53:00   video you [TS]

00:53:01   share with friends and family to help [TS]

00:53:02   you pick a winner you get feedback from [TS]

00:53:04   everybody buying glasses through them is [TS]

00:53:06   in my opinion probably easier than [TS]

00:53:08   buying them from anybody else [TS]

00:53:10   and of course they do good in the world [TS]

00:53:12   to for every pair of eyeglasses you buy [TS]

00:53:14   a pair is attributed to someone in need [TS]

00:53:16   through various vision charities around [TS]

00:53:18   the world you gotta check it out the [TS]

00:53:20   warby parker glasses are great my wife [TS]

00:53:22   has a couple of pairs she loves them [TS]

00:53:24   I don't wear glasses but i do have [TS]

00:53:25   sunglasses from them because they also [TS]

00:53:26   have sunglasses including polarized [TS]

00:53:29   lenses starting just $95 for [TS]

00:53:31   non-prescription and with prescription [TS]

00:53:33   starting just $275 just like their [TS]

00:53:36   eyeglasses that you can also get some [TS]

00:53:37   glasses through the home try-on program [TS]

00:53:39   these are premium polarized lenses that [TS]

00:53:41   are scratch resistant and a hundred [TS]

00:53:43   percent UV protection [TS]

00:53:44   you gotta check out work Parker their [TS]

00:53:46   glasses are so good they're fashionable [TS]

00:53:47   and it's so easy to buy from them last [TS]

00:53:51   are just $95 including prescription [TS]

00:53:53   lenses lenses include anti-glare and [TS]

00:53:55   scratch coatings check it out warby [TS]

00:53:57   parker calm / ATP for your home trying [TS]

00:54:01   kit today thank you very much to worry [TS]

00:54:02   Parker for sponsoring our show [TS]

00:54:04   ah before we move on from overcast i did [TS]

00:54:10   want to briefly ask you about this this [TS]

00:54:13   new ad model and i'm not entirely sure I [TS]

00:54:18   understand the nuances of it and so I [TS]

00:54:21   I'm going to defer my chief summarizer [TS]

00:54:24   in chief role to you [TS]

00:54:25   Marco if you could summarize what this [TS]

00:54:27   this new setup is and in kinda how it [TS]

00:54:30   works and broad strokes sure [TS]

00:54:33   so basically before you know it by i [TS]

00:54:35   have as as John likes to remind me i [TS]

00:54:38   change my business model however cast [TS]

00:54:39   roughly every you know nine to 18 months [TS]

00:54:42   I've gone through many of them now [TS]

00:54:44   the one I've settled on since this past [TS]

00:54:46   September which is just going to be a [TS]

00:54:48   tweak the one before it is basically [TS]

00:54:50   adds as like the main source of income [TS]

00:54:52   and then paid subscriptions to remove [TS]

00:54:55   the ads if you want to and the way this [TS]

00:54:58   is worked out over time is actually not [TS]

00:55:01   that way the way it's worked out since [TS]

00:55:03   sep tember when i add these these a [TS]

00:55:05   Google AdMob ads and by the way just as [TS]

00:55:08   quickly occasion I know there are other [TS]

00:55:10   ad networks but they're all worse in [TS]

00:55:13   some major way [TS]

00:55:14   either they have creepier code or they [TS]

00:55:17   require more sdk integration they're [TS]

00:55:20   kind of like networks where they have to [TS]

00:55:22   add lots of SDKs to your apt for all [TS]

00:55:24   these different companies or they just [TS]

00:55:26   don't sell enough inventory you end up [TS]

00:55:28   getting very little money from from your [TS]

00:55:30   ads and a lot of like unsold inventory [TS]

00:55:31   us because like show nothing for or show [TS]

00:55:34   your own you know splash thing for [TS]

00:55:36   whatever else so I think you're going to [TS]

00:55:39   do third-party ads I think AdMob is the [TS]

00:55:41   way to do it and but what I found with [TS]

00:55:44   AdMob ultimately is that the ads were of [TS]

00:55:47   lower quality than i wanted and they [TS]

00:55:49   made very little money and as I kept [TS]

00:55:52   going through and and going in there [TS]

00:55:54   within their control panel and turning [TS]

00:55:56   off various flick categories of crappy [TS]

00:55:58   ads I didn't want to see things like you [TS]

00:56:00   know casino stuff and like we're like [TS]

00:56:03   sexy dating services like I would turn [TS]

00:56:05   that I would find those and turn them [TS]

00:56:06   off and then make even less money [TS]

00:56:08   because it turns out all the crap ads [TS]

00:56:09   make a lot of money which is why he run [TS]

00:56:11   them so basically it was making very [TS]

00:56:14   little money it ended up like I thought [TS]

00:56:16   I was going to make the most money from [TS]

00:56:18   the ads and then some money from [TS]

00:56:19   subscriptions and it ended up that was [TS]

00:56:21   making ninety percent of the money from [TS]

00:56:23   subscriptions totally flipped and that's [TS]

00:56:25   actually fine [TS]

00:56:27   I like it that way I'd rather have [TS]

00:56:28   people paying me that have to deal with [TS]

00:56:30   ads and the ads the presence of the ads [TS]

00:56:33   increase subscriptions dramatically from [TS]

00:56:35   the previous system which is basically [TS]

00:56:37   pay if you feel like it like patrons you [TS]

00:56:39   know just pay if you liked me and that [TS]

00:56:41   that work a little bit but it was not it [TS]

00:56:43   wasn't working enough so it succeeded as [TS]

00:56:46   a business model but not because of the [TS]

00:56:49   ads it succeeded because there were ads [TS]

00:56:52   there but the ads could be anything [TS]

00:56:54   honestly I'm sure I i'm actually see a [TS]

00:56:57   slightly lower subscription rate because [TS]

00:56:59   the ads are no longer crappy but I [TS]

00:57:02   they're also now they're playing screen [TS]

00:57:03   so you see the more so I don't bounce [TS]

00:57:06   itself out anyway so I decided that I [TS]

00:57:08   was no longer interested in running [TS]

00:57:10   Google AdMob ads for lots of different [TS]

00:57:11   reasons [TS]

00:57:12   quality of the ads low revenue those are [TS]

00:57:15   major factors but also as i talked with [TS]

00:57:18   the blog post a little bit here I think [TS]

00:57:19   I i'm no longer very comfortable [TS]

00:57:22   embedding closed-source add libraries [TS]

00:57:25   into my appt from ad companies [TS]

00:57:28   I think as a developer you have to be [TS]

00:57:30   conscious of that there has to be a [TS]

00:57:32   really good reason if you to embed [TS]

00:57:33   someone else's clothes source code and [TS]

00:57:35   your app because that can do anything [TS]

00:57:37   and it's on you like that that can [TS]

00:57:39   access all of your user data whatever [TS]

00:57:41   users that are doing with the app [TS]

00:57:43   whatever they are entering into the app [TS]

00:57:45   that code has complete access to it that [TS]

00:57:48   code can get you in trouble with apple [TS]

00:57:49   that code can do things that are [TS]

00:57:51   prohibited that code can require you to [TS]

00:57:53   have all these advertising disclaimers [TS]

00:57:56   that that your user see or that a [TS]

00:57:57   preview sees that can get you in trouble [TS]

00:57:59   with a preview [TS]

00:58:00   there's all and there's all sorts of [TS]

00:58:02   stuff like baggage that you sign up for [TS]

00:58:05   when you are adding someone else's [TS]

00:58:07   clothes source code to your app and so [TS]

00:58:10   after there had to be a really really [TS]

00:58:11   good reason for that recipe in there and [TS]

00:58:13   I no longer had a good reason the only [TS]

00:58:15   reason I didn't remember what i thought [TS]

00:58:17   was the only option [TS]

00:58:18   the option between that and going out of [TS]

00:58:20   business basically and so I took that [TS]

00:58:22   option but then the business model [TS]

00:58:24   changed and the environment change you [TS]

00:58:26   know that all happened in September then [TS]

00:58:29   November happened then January happened [TS]

00:58:31   it's a different world now and so now [TS]

00:58:35   I'm I i basically this thing alright [TS]

00:58:37   well now let me see you know what can i [TS]

00:58:40   do myself because it and because the [TS]

00:58:43   google ads made so little money for me [TS]

00:58:47   and i canít people other people have [TS]

00:58:49   more success with google ads that I have [TS]

00:58:51   I don't want to like say that they don't [TS]

00:58:54   work for anybody because they obviously [TS]

00:58:56   worked for lots of people but my my tap [TS]

00:58:59   through rate was awful lot like and and [TS]

00:59:02   most of like you have basically how much [TS]

00:59:05   money you make depends extremely heavily [TS]

00:59:07   on your tap through rate and there's [TS]

00:59:09   lots of reasons for that none of which i [TS]

00:59:10   was willing to fix like so there's like [TS]

00:59:12   for example if you want a day if you [TS]

00:59:15   want to make more money you should put [TS]

00:59:18   the ad somewhere people are more likely [TS]

00:59:20   to accidentally tap them i'm not going [TS]

00:59:22   to do that you should have the ads on [TS]

00:59:24   every screen of your app or more screens [TS]

00:59:25   of your app but I wasn't doing that i [TS]

00:59:27   had the only lists screens before they [TS]

00:59:28   were too big for now playing you should [TS]

00:59:31   enable things like animated banners I [TS]

00:59:33   didn't want to do that because a lot of [TS]

00:59:35   like those pay better you know like [TS]

00:59:36   there's all sorts of things that you can [TS]

00:59:37   do to make ads work better that I was [TS]

00:59:40   unwilling to do so it's not [TS]

00:59:41   entirely add mobs fault that I had such [TS]

00:59:44   a bad experience it was just my app and [TS]

00:59:46   my you know strict requirements for it [TS]

00:59:48   he knows what I could stomach and what I [TS]

00:59:50   want to do anyway I decided you know [TS]

00:59:53   since AdMob ads were making so little [TS]

00:59:54   for me i could replace them with pretty [TS]

00:59:57   much anything and it probably wouldn't [TS]

00:59:57   much anything and it probably wouldn't [TS]

01:00:00   negatively affect my business so because [TS]

01:00:03   like the main risk with with running my [TS]

01:00:05   own ads is what if no one buys them what [TS]

01:00:08   if it turns out they're really hard to [TS]

01:00:09   sell [TS]

01:00:10   I wish they might be you know these [TS]

01:00:11   aren't podcast as their display ads and [TS]

01:00:13   display ads are hard to sell right now I [TS]

01:00:16   only have very very limited data right [TS]

01:00:18   now with you know these trial partners i [TS]

01:00:21   have now in there but you know I have no [TS]

01:00:24   idea even what kind of views or tap [TS]

01:00:28   through rates or subscription rates that [TS]

01:00:30   they're going to get in like three [TS]

01:00:32   months [TS]

01:00:32   you know right now it's all over when [TS]

01:00:33   everyone's looking at him and poking [TS]

01:00:34   them and and seeing what they're like so [TS]

01:00:36   the data right now is nice but it's not [TS]

01:00:37   really representative probably so i have [TS]

01:00:41   no idea how they're gonna perform but [TS]

01:00:42   the fact is i am way happier with them [TS]

01:00:45   they're totally under my control [TS]

01:00:47   there is no weird closed source code go [TS]

01:00:50   into the world's biggest advertising [TS]

01:00:51   company it is just completely my appt [TS]

01:00:54   doing my thing the way I designed it [TS]

01:00:56   under my control the privacy of them is [TS]

01:00:59   great because i don't want anything [TS]

01:01:01   because I don't want any of your data [TS]

01:01:03   like I don't think I want the least data [TS]

01:01:05   I can possibly get from you to make my [TS]

01:01:06   have work if you if you ever are curious [TS]

01:01:10   what I call it read the privacy policy [TS]

01:01:11   and overcast it's very short [TS]

01:01:13   human-readable I wrote it all it's you [TS]

01:01:15   know it's very very clear and so I'm [TS]

01:01:19   much happier with the setup now and so [TS]

01:01:22   what the setup is is my own ads they [TS]

01:01:25   show in a plane screen and in the ad [TS]

01:01:28   podcast screen the ad unit can show [TS]

01:01:30   either ads for websites apps in the App [TS]

01:01:34   Store or podcasts and overcast and and [TS]

01:01:37   so you can actually advertise for a [TS]

01:01:39   podcast in the podcast app and when you [TS]

01:01:41   tap these ads it brings up the sheet [TS]

01:01:43   that is just the overcast add podcast [TS]

01:01:46   screen the standard screen and show it [TS]

01:01:47   has all the episodes in it they all have [TS]

01:01:49   all the buttons the casey and John hate [TS]

01:01:51   with you know you can you can add to [TS]

01:01:52   queue you can you know you can subscribe [TS]

01:01:54   there you can download whatever else and [TS]

01:01:55   so it's all this the standard native [TS]

01:01:57   interface i don't know how many [TS]

01:02:00   podcasters are going to be willing to [TS]

01:02:02   pay for ads long-term i can tell you i [TS]

01:02:04   have an inbox full of emails from [TS]

01:02:06   podcasters who are interested right now [TS]

01:02:08   that i am having a very hard time [TS]

01:02:10   answering all once however I [TS]

01:02:12   there's tons of interest right now but [TS]

01:02:15   you know once you get into the [TS]

01:02:16   nitty-gritty of like you know getting [TS]

01:02:18   people to actually commit and to pay you [TS]

01:02:21   everything changes so i have no idea [TS]

01:02:23   what's going to be like a long-term but [TS]

01:02:26   the fact is I don't need to sell very [TS]

01:02:28   many ads to make more than i was making [TS]

01:02:30   before and even if i make less than was [TS]

01:02:33   making before as long as people keep [TS]

01:02:35   subscribing [TS]

01:02:36   I'm still fine so I think I made the [TS]

01:02:40   right move it also on the same by the [TS]

01:02:42   same logic and for all the same reasons [TS]

01:02:43   i also in this update removed the fabric [TS]

01:02:47   analytics from the absolute there's no [TS]

01:02:48   more third-party analytic services [TS]

01:02:50   either all I do now is I have a very [TS]

01:02:53   very basic analytics class that I wrote [TS]

01:02:56   myself that just log some very basic [TS]

01:02:58   information and it can be used to do [TS]

01:03:00   things like what you're describing [TS]

01:03:02   earlier John about like a measuring how [TS]

01:03:03   many people use the delete button or [TS]

01:03:05   whatever it out whatever you were asking [TS]

01:03:07   about I can do something that right now [TS]

01:03:08   I'm measuring almost nothing in the app [TS]

01:03:10   I talked a little about the radar this [TS]

01:03:12   week the short version there is a data [TS]

01:03:14   analytics for a while now with fabric [TS]

01:03:16   and I found some actionable things from [TS]

01:03:19   it but most of the I was collecting was [TS]

01:03:21   neither useful more actionable I i find [TS]

01:03:25   analytics are great too [TS]

01:03:26   like when you have a specific question [TS]

01:03:28   trying to answer so like when i was [TS]

01:03:30   developing a guy i was curious a while [TS]

01:03:34   back and maybe a year ago now so i added [TS]

01:03:37   analytics for what type of output device [TS]

01:03:41   people were listening on and i learned [TS]

01:03:43   from that that a lot of people use the [TS]

01:03:45   built-in speaker way more than I thought [TS]

01:03:46   and so that's why I did the voice boost [TS]

01:03:49   optimized speaker profile for the iphone [TS]

01:03:51   speaker because it was I realize like [TS]

01:03:54   wow a lot of people who is this is worth [TS]

01:03:56   focusing attention on i also learned [TS]

01:03:58   during times of that like at major parts [TS]

01:04:00   of the watch act like you didn't even [TS]

01:04:02   use the watch app what features of the [TS]

01:04:04   watch app do they use like they actually [TS]

01:04:06   go to the force touch menu by the way no [TS]

01:04:08   difficult to do they actually like ever [TS]

01:04:11   use the buttons on order mostly using it [TS]

01:04:14   to read information and as a glance [TS]

01:04:16   answer yes so I learned stuff like that [TS]

01:04:20   but I can do that myself with very basic [TS]

01:04:22   analytics like I don't need everything [TS]

01:04:24   that [TS]

01:04:25   that a full-blown analytics package [TS]

01:04:26   offers today like various like [TS]

01:04:28   conversion tracking different things and [TS]

01:04:30   funnels all over the place and and all [TS]

01:04:32   these like for attention like I don't [TS]

01:04:34   that's the kind of stuff that like [TS]

01:04:35   venture fund companies need I don't need [TS]

01:04:38   that I don't have anybody asking for [TS]

01:04:40   that information [TS]

01:04:40   I don't care about that information so i [TS]

01:04:43   don't need to collect so basically i'm [TS]

01:04:45   gettin away now with incredibly simple [TS]

01:04:46   analytics of just my own you know you [TS]

01:04:48   know hand-rolled thing is a goddamn [TS]

01:04:51   hipster my own [TS]

01:04:52   yeah our artisanal analytics and now [TS]

01:04:55   it's just a lot simpler and lower tech [TS]

01:04:58   and but i can just now I can tell things [TS]

01:04:59   like you know what how many people are [TS]

01:05:02   using different devices like how many [TS]

01:05:03   iphone 7 vs 7 plus do I have and that [TS]

01:05:06   helps me decide things like what should [TS]

01:05:08   i optimize this interface for you know [TS]

01:05:10   should i optimize it for 5.5 inch [TS]

01:05:12   screens or 4.7 or 44 point out you know [TS]

01:05:14   and stuff like that that stuff I need to [TS]

01:05:16   know I don't need to know the level of [TS]

01:05:19   detail that all these commercial [TS]

01:05:20   analytics packages provide and [TS]

01:05:22   especially at the cost of having their [TS]

01:05:24   own closed source code in my app and [TS]

01:05:26   exposing all my user data to them they [TS]

01:05:28   like best about these a new ads is the [TS]

01:05:31   fact that they are podcast ads in a [TS]

01:05:33   podcast player right built-in relevance [TS]

01:05:35   and if you if you ever run out of [TS]

01:05:36   inventory which you wouldn't because you [TS]

01:05:38   can just lower the price and get any [TS]

01:05:39   inventory wanted but if you ever did run [TS]

01:05:40   out I would be happy to see that slot [TS]

01:05:42   spilled was just pulled from your own [TS]

01:05:44   like most recommended section because [TS]

01:05:46   you have ready-made inventory of you [TS]

01:05:49   know I don't know how relevant but like [TS]

01:05:50   hey here are some popular here's a [TS]

01:05:53   podcast with some episodes that are [TS]

01:05:55   being recommended a lot in insert time [TS]

01:05:57   window and then just throw them in the [TS]

01:05:59   most recommended thing you tap them you [TS]

01:06:00   go into the episode it's it's like a [TS]

01:06:01   no-brainer [TS]

01:06:02   I i I'd act also echo your fear that [TS]

01:06:07   they will not be offensive enough to [TS]

01:06:09   make people pay because they're not [TS]

01:06:10   they're Pleasant like their podcast dead [TS]

01:06:13   and they're not you know it's not be [TS]

01:06:15   like you know what I was a mesothelioma [TS]

01:06:18   or whatever like I i do want to clarify [TS]

01:06:23   their on all podcasts as theirs and [TS]

01:06:24   theirs and for however there's not for [TS]

01:06:26   linode there are a couple of websites [TS]

01:06:28   well I I that you mention that when i [TS]

01:06:30   saw the hover and I was like it cuz i [TS]

01:06:33   see however i think that's a podcast had [TS]

01:06:35   to because obviously there was [TS]

01:06:36   so how about listen to imagine if it was [TS]

01:06:40   like synchronized like when the hover [TS]

01:06:41   and is playing on the show that the [TS]

01:06:43   hover add got the hover banner got to [TS]

01:06:45   display down the thing and include the [TS]

01:06:48   people's codes there's all sorts of [TS]

01:06:49   crazy business ideas that you could do [TS]

01:06:51   here or competitive advertising where [TS]

01:06:53   people could buy podcast advertising [TS]

01:06:55   against that would run against the other [TS]

01:06:57   podcast in the same genre this is all [TS]

01:06:59   getting way too complicated and i agree [TS]

01:07:01   that it you know if this is simply a way [TS]

01:07:03   to replace that ten percent of money [TS]

01:07:05   with a more pleasant experience then [TS]

01:07:07   that's a win no matter what but I think [TS]

01:07:11   that kind of like the moses i think of [TS]

01:07:14   subjective i was talking about the [TS]

01:07:15   fantasy google ad that you know it's far [TS]

01:07:17   fewer ads but far more valuable because [TS]

01:07:19   they're better targeted by some magic AI [TS]

01:07:21   think i think even just basic better [TS]

01:07:23   targeting of the fact that hey I know [TS]

01:07:25   you're interested in podcast because [TS]

01:07:26   you're listening to one you are great [TS]

01:07:28   audience for me to advertise other [TS]

01:07:29   podcast to because you are proven [TS]

01:07:32   podcast listener and you're using a [TS]

01:07:33   podcast client and guess what [TS]

01:07:35   here's another podcast and that's why [TS]

01:07:37   you can charge more money for that then [TS]

01:07:38   you can for an ad for even something at [TS]

01:07:41   like hover or something because although [TS]

01:07:43   they are advertising as a podcast [TS]

01:07:45   however is not technically podcast [TS]

01:07:46   related but another podcast is and then [TS]

01:07:49   a podcast can spend money advertising to [TS]

01:07:51   each other and going to just like the [TS]

01:07:52   app store ads yeah because like that's [TS]

01:07:55   why it that's one reason need this for [TS]

01:07:57   pocket and I was like and I've had all [TS]

01:07:59   sorts of crazy ideas on how to possibly [TS]

01:08:02   sell these things and is that but [TS]

01:08:04   ultimately it came down to like of [TS]

01:08:06   course this is the perfect place for an [TS]

01:08:08   ad for podcast [TS]

01:08:10   the only question is you know that the [TS]

01:08:12   only doubt in my mind is you know [TS]

01:08:14   whether enough podcasters will be [TS]

01:08:16   willing and able to pay for an ad for [TS]

01:08:18   their shows because most podcasters [TS]

01:08:20   don't make a lot of money from [TS]

01:08:21   sponsorships mostly most podcast don't [TS]

01:08:23   even have sponsors most guys don't have [TS]

01:08:25   audiences big enough to get sponsors so [TS]

01:08:28   how many podcasts are going to be [TS]

01:08:30   willing to pay for ads like I have no [TS]

01:08:33   idea it it doesn't take a lot to to make [TS]

01:08:36   this work [TS]

01:08:37   you know it doesn't take you know you [TS]

01:08:40   don't need thousands of advertisers you [TS]

01:08:41   need tens of advertisers to to make this [TS]

01:08:44   work really well like you know so so i [TS]

01:08:47   think it will probably be okay [TS]

01:08:49   I think one of the big challenges gonna [TS]

01:08:51   be like I don't think podcasters have [TS]

01:08:54   ever had away ever even thought about [TS]

01:08:57   buying ads because there's never really [TS]

01:08:59   been a place where you could buy an ad [TS]

01:09:01   for a podcast that made sense because [TS]

01:09:03   you were just saying like you can't just [TS]

01:09:05   buy like you know a google search a door [TS]

01:09:06   like a Facebook ad for your podcast and [TS]

01:09:08   get anybody to click through because [TS]

01:09:10   like you start losing you know targeting [TS]

01:09:12   the faster like the chances that they [TS]

01:09:15   are a podcast listener and who want to [TS]

01:09:17   listen to your show like that [TS]

01:09:18   combination gets multiplied and that's [TS]

01:09:19   that's gonna be a pretty low number then [TS]

01:09:21   says too much friction if you like and [TS]

01:09:23   other venues like doing on the web if [TS]

01:09:25   you're not already in a podcast player [TS]

01:09:27   getting successfully described subscribe [TS]

01:09:30   to podcast in your player of choice is [TS]

01:09:32   difficult so I i counted that one time [TS]

01:09:34   on the web and I find a podcast that I [TS]

01:09:36   like and I'm disappointed when I don't [TS]

01:09:37   see like either a link to the overcast [TS]

01:09:39   URL where I can just save an overcast [TS]

01:09:40   like they just give me an itunes link or [TS]

01:09:42   something like that that's not no good [TS]

01:09:43   to me i don't use that player right [TS]

01:09:45   because you don't but the website can't [TS]

01:09:47   know what player use but if I'm already [TS]

01:09:48   in the player that i use is a one tab [TS]

01:09:51   way to get an episode that's way less [TS]

01:09:53   friction [TS]

01:09:53   yeah exactly so i am really curious to [TS]

01:09:57   see how this plays out and to see who [TS]

01:09:59   buys his ads like you know once once [TS]

01:10:01   people can actually start seeing my [TS]

01:10:04   prices publicly like a few emails once [TS]

01:10:06   people have data of what a month worth [TS]

01:10:10   of clicks and new subscriptions look [TS]

01:10:11   like and for how much money that could [TS]

01:10:14   change things you know that because we'd [TS]

01:10:16   right now none of us me the average none [TS]

01:10:18   of us know whether these are going to be [TS]

01:10:20   a good deal or not because we don't have [TS]

01:10:22   enough data yet so we're gonna find out [TS]

01:10:24   and it might be an incredibly good deal [TS]

01:10:26   might end up being by far the best way [TS]

01:10:28   to get new listeners to a podcast or it [TS]

01:10:31   might be that there's just too few [TS]

01:10:33   people for it to make any financial [TS]

01:10:35   sense i don't know we're gonna find out [TS]

01:10:37   and if that's the case then I'll just [TS]

01:10:39   fill up a hover and don't care so few [TS]

01:10:43   quick hits regarding that do you want to [TS]

01:10:46   disclose even an order of magnitude of [TS]

01:10:48   pricing like we talking tens of dollars [TS]

01:10:50   or ten thousands of dollars or so he can [TS]

01:10:53   you narrow it down because i assume that [TS]

01:10:54   you're going to get a thousand emails [TS]

01:10:55   about you know I don't even know how [TS]

01:10:57   much this costs can afford this [TS]

01:10:59   so is there like a rough order [TS]

01:11:01   magnitude you can say for pricing as the [TS]

01:11:03   as we record tonight which obviously [TS]

01:11:05   could change no answer asked me a few [TS]

01:11:09   weeks that that's why we'll have a much [TS]

01:11:10   better idea of what these things will [TS]

01:11:12   actually be charged for you know [TS]

01:11:14   long-term her trying to the Marcos [TS]

01:11:18   currently trying to talk himself off the [TS]

01:11:19   ledge of making this an auction system [TS]

01:11:21   so it's all right for him in this [TS]

01:11:22   endeavor 11 system that i thought was [TS]

01:11:25   using you kind of had there should be [TS]

01:11:27   some way to to you know kind of [TS]

01:11:30   automatically scale with demand so one [TS]

01:11:32   thing I thought was just like just sell [TS]

01:11:34   them for 30 days and just say you know [TS]

01:11:37   here's how many ads there are the system [TS]

01:11:39   right now and keep the price fixed and [TS]

01:11:41   just you know that the market kind of [TS]

01:11:43   work that out right because like if if [TS]

01:11:45   the price is really low then a bunch of [TS]

01:11:46   people will buy it and then every apple [TS]

01:11:48   just get fewer impressions so it kind of [TS]

01:11:51   is self-regulating I think I don't know [TS]

01:11:54   this is I i I'm throwing around all [TS]

01:11:56   these differences in my head of how they [TS]

01:11:57   should be built house should be sold and [TS]

01:12:00   the there's a reason why there are so [TS]

01:12:01   few initial partners on board because [TS]

01:12:03   everyone who's advertising it right now [TS]

01:12:06   I've worked out i've gone to them in [TS]

01:12:08   advance and say and said like hey here's [TS]

01:12:10   what's going on I don't know what this [TS]

01:12:13   is going to be yet and you know so it [TS]

01:12:15   you know we're going to some in this [TS]

01:12:17   kind of like trial mode and we're gonna [TS]

01:12:19   share data you know I'm gonna tell you [TS]

01:12:21   what this gets you and you're gonna tell [TS]

01:12:23   me if you get click through on your [TS]

01:12:24   website and everything else and we're [TS]

01:12:25   gonna figure out what is it with this [TS]

01:12:26   actually works because right now I have [TS]

01:12:28   no idea [TS]

01:12:29   so it's way too early i mean this has [TS]

01:12:31   been the store for like a day and a half [TS]

01:12:32   so it's just way too early for me to to [TS]

01:12:36   have useful data yet so what is the [TS]

01:12:38   appropriate mechanism by which you could [TS]

01:12:41   be contact contacted if somebody wants [TS]

01:12:43   to buy that you go to the site go to the [TS]

01:12:45   contact page and it says there it says [TS]

01:12:47   you know for a degrees email here so do [TS]

01:12:50   that but it might want that overcast at [TS]

01:12:53   them [TS]

01:12:53   yeah and and it might be a week or two [TS]

01:12:56   before i can actually get back to you [TS]

01:12:58   with something useful [TS]

01:12:59   alright and then finally out of this is [TS]

01:13:02   more out of my own curiosity how are you [TS]

01:13:04   are are you providing I mean you just [TS]

01:13:06   hinted at it a second ago are you [TS]

01:13:08   providing any sort of like analytics and [TS]

01:13:10   is there like a portal for that or is [TS]

01:13:11   this just you ripping off emails when [TS]

01:13:13   the time comes like what's your [TS]

01:13:14   intention [TS]

01:13:14   that they're at my intention is that [TS]

01:13:18   people who buy the ads will be able to [TS]

01:13:20   log into a portal and see the [TS]

01:13:22   performance of the ads they bought i [TS]

01:13:24   haven't actually built that yet i do [TS]

01:13:26   have a ride just have one giant [TS]

01:13:28   dashboard that I can see in my admin [TS]

01:13:30   panel I can see how they're doing and [TS]

01:13:31   the only tracking is a little privacy [TS]

01:13:34   policy on track is three things clicks [TS]

01:13:37   views and subscriptions if their podcast [TS]

01:13:40   ads that's it for websites just click [TS]

01:13:42   views and they can be targeted by [TS]

01:13:44   podcast category so you can say show [TS]

01:13:46   this to everybody or you can say show [TS]

01:13:48   this to people who listen to shows that [TS]

01:13:50   are in the itunes technology category i [TS]

01:13:52   have targeting by top-level podcast [TS]

01:13:54   category in the directory optionally and [TS]

01:13:57   so that helps a little bit but that's it [TS]

01:14:00   and so you know it's a very very simple [TS]

01:14:02   system it's very low on data because AI [TS]

01:14:07   find too much data in that situation [TS]

01:14:08   kind of gross and be i don't believe is [TS]

01:14:11   necessary for this so we'll find out we [TS]

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01:14:52   and then get back to working on your [TS]

01:14:54   great idea [TS]

01:14:54   hover is also known for their no wait no [TS]

01:14:57   hold no transfer phone service this is [TS]

01:14:59   kind of amazing when you call them up a [TS]

01:15:01   real live human being [TS]

01:15:03   takes the phone there's no holds there's [TS]

01:15:05   no weights and the person who you who [TS]

01:15:07   picked up the phone can help you [TS]

01:15:09   there's no transfers there's no phone [TS]

01:15:10   tree to go through a real-life human [TS]

01:15:12   being picked up the phone if you call [TS]

01:15:14   them for help [TS]

01:15:15   plus if you don't want to call they also [TS]

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01:15:32   thank you very much to hover for [TS]

01:15:33   sponsoring our show ah so I feel like we [TS]

01:15:40   should spend a few minutes talking about [TS]

01:15:42   how much accessible uber is because will [TS]

01:15:45   full what a disaster that coming what a [TS]

01:15:47   freaking disaster and they take this [TS]

01:15:49   latest horrible thing they did it's like [TS]

01:15:51   it's just the latest in a string of [TS]

01:15:53   horrible things they have done over the [TS]

01:15:54   relatively short time they've been in [TS]

01:15:56   existence like Eric horrible company run [TS]

01:15:59   by horrible people [TS]

01:16:01   yes so if you're not aware a woman who [TS]

01:16:04   goes by susan j Fowler has written [TS]

01:16:06   reflecting on one very very strange year [TS]

01:16:08   to over it is not a terribly long post [TS]

01:16:12   but it's long enough you're gonna want [TS]

01:16:13   to leave yourself a few minutes to read [TS]

01:16:15   it and you absolutely should read it and [TS]

01:16:19   it is worth reading in its entirety [TS]

01:16:20   don't skip around it's worth it because [TS]

01:16:22   it is the laboratory casting how [TS]

01:16:27   unbelievable it was the behavior of of [TS]

01:16:32   Susan's like superiors and in some cases [TS]

01:16:34   peers and the HR department / suffice to [TS]

01:16:37   say i'm trying i don't know if i should [TS]

01:16:40   really pull the summarizer in chief on [TS]

01:16:42   this one because there's so much to this [TS]

01:16:44   post but the the short version and again [TS]

01:16:48   please read it please please read it but [TS]

01:16:50   the short version is she was sexually [TS]

01:16:52   harassed in various ways and in various [TS]

01:16:55   magnitude pretty much from the moment [TS]

01:16:57   she got there until the moment she left [TS]

01:16:59   and and to me the most despicable thing [TS]

01:17:02   that I found about this whole story was [TS]

01:17:06   that she was told when she bubbled up [TS]

01:17:08   these complaints to HR at uber that she [TS]

01:17:11   was the only one complaining about this [TS]

01:17:13   one particular individual yeah that was [TS]

01:17:15   it was a first-time offense right thing [TS]

01:17:18   I'm sorry that that's that's an [TS]

01:17:19   important distinction that's absolutely [TS]

01:17:20   correct as a first-time offense they [TS]

01:17:22   will call this person Bob Bob is never [TS]

01:17:24   done this before it's Bob's first time [TS]

01:17:25   being a complete turd its first time [TS]

01:17:29   yeah I'm sure he didn't mean it don't [TS]

01:17:30   worry about it which is such a terrible [TS]

01:17:33   way to approach this kind of a situation [TS]

01:17:35   like I I don't understand why is the [TS]

01:17:37   first offense even considered free like [TS]

01:17:39   even if it was [TS]

01:17:41   true like which it wasn't but like what [TS]

01:17:43   why is that even ok response even was [TS]

01:17:45   true [TS]

01:17:46   yeah i mean in ATP tips during the chat [TS]

01:17:48   is phrasing it well in this is all caps [TS]

01:17:50   but my voice is shot so i'm not gonna [TS]

01:17:51   scream is this first grade [TS]

01:17:53   why the eff is sexual harassment a [TS]

01:17:55   strike base system like yeah like why is [TS]

01:17:59   this the way this little unit three [TS]

01:18:00   strikes on that like know immediately [TS]

01:18:02   fired maybe arrested like oh god I yeah [TS]

01:18:06   I completely great so anyway so that [TS]

01:18:08   shit Susan ends up talking to some of [TS]

01:18:10   your peers and her peers are like oh [TS]

01:18:12   that's weird i was talking to HR about [TS]

01:18:15   Bob and they told me that it was a [TS]

01:18:16   first-time offense and we are not the [TS]

01:18:19   same person we are not reporting the [TS]

01:18:21   same incident looks to us like hrs full [TS]

01:18:24   of crap and so you know there's there's [TS]

01:18:27   always a chance that this is all [TS]

01:18:30   fabricated but man i don't believe that [TS]

01:18:33   for a second like this is not one of [TS]

01:18:35   those ragequit kind of posts where oh [TS]

01:18:38   you know I died I didn't I didn't fit in [TS]

01:18:40   well and i'm just going to make up stuff [TS]

01:18:41   about no that's not how this reason at [TS]

01:18:43   all and and this reads like a [TS]

01:18:45   intelligent mature person just stating [TS]

01:18:48   the facts of what they went through and [TS]

01:18:51   God is a terrible and there was another [TS]

01:18:54   report that came out I don't have a link [TS]

01:18:56   handy but we'll find it for the show [TS]

01:18:57   notes about how and I'm butchering the [TS]

01:18:59   details but it's something like if you [TS]

01:19:01   don't make men use their real names or [TS]

01:19:05   anything like that about 5% of them [TS]

01:19:09   think that they have any room to grow [TS]

01:19:11   with regard to like relations to women [TS]

01:19:13   or other minority groups and guess what [TS]

01:19:16   like all of us are problem i like to [TS]

01:19:18   think of myself as relatively woke in [TS]

01:19:20   this department and I'm a damn problem [TS]

01:19:21   like i don't get this right all the time [TS]

01:19:22   and oh god the the utter overwhelming [TS]

01:19:27   self-confidence that that these over [TS]

01:19:32   employees have shown not the women that [TS]

01:19:34   the men in an HR is just preposterous [TS]

01:19:37   like oh my god I just I can't believe [TS]

01:19:42   that this is a thing and that is [TS]

01:19:43   continue going on now since this blog [TS]

01:19:45   post travis kalanick alec is that his [TS]

01:19:48   name so the CEO whoever he is has to his [TS]

01:19:53   credit I guess [TS]

01:19:54   taking a pretty strong stance on this in [TS]

01:19:58   that he's taking it as true he's taking [TS]

01:20:01   it as evidence that there's a real [TS]

01:20:03   problem but I don't know man it's pretty [TS]

01:20:06   like everyone is known that Hoover's [TS]

01:20:08   really freaking slimy and a lot of [TS]

01:20:10   freakin ways and now is when you're [TS]

01:20:11   finally jumping on board and being like [TS]

01:20:13   oh you know maybe we have something to [TS]

01:20:14   change [TS]

01:20:15   it's just this whole situation is just [TS]

01:20:17   so freakin gross [TS]

01:20:18   yeah i mean that's like the CEOs in [TS]

01:20:21   these situations always act so surprised [TS]

01:20:23   i had no idea this was going on there [TS]

01:20:25   okay like that's either complete BS or [TS]

01:20:28   you were really doing a bad job of [TS]

01:20:31   looking at your own company for very [TS]

01:20:33   different things that should be really [TS]

01:20:34   common sense like something something is [TS]

01:20:36   wrong seriously wrong here like it's [TS]

01:20:39   it's not like the evil HR department is [TS]

01:20:42   the cause of this know like the HR [TS]

01:20:44   department is in service to the company [TS]

01:20:48   the HR department it like it's not [TS]

01:20:50   anybody's friend it's not like a third [TS]

01:20:52   party you know judge system HR their [TS]

01:20:56   main role is to prevent the company from [TS]

01:20:59   getting sued and to mitigate risks that [TS]

01:21:01   might cause that this HR department [TS]

01:21:03   isn't even doing that job well that's [TS]

01:21:05   true [TS]

01:21:05   like so many parts of this company this [TS]

01:21:07   edge our department is terrible at it [TS]

01:21:09   even at its ostensible job not even that [TS]

01:21:12   it's like theoretical job and every [TS]

01:21:14   world right but like the the point like [TS]

01:21:16   the HR department job is to protect the [TS]

01:21:18   company from its employees that is [TS]

01:21:20   literally their job [TS]

01:21:22   yeah if the HR department is is being [TS]

01:21:24   directed or being incentivized to do [TS]

01:21:27   horrible things by the people who run [TS]

01:21:29   the company they're going to do horrible [TS]

01:21:31   things and it should come as no surprise [TS]

01:21:34   that i'm i'm pretty sure it's BS that [TS]

01:21:37   did come as a surprise i'm pretty sure [TS]

01:21:38   that this was no surprise it should come [TS]

01:21:40   as no surprise to the CEO of a company [TS]

01:21:42   that horrible stuff goes on in HR when [TS]

01:21:47   he himself seems to be a pretty horrible [TS]

01:21:50   person from the little bit that I know [TS]

01:21:52   and the company does lots of horrible [TS]

01:21:54   things and has a complete culture of [TS]

01:21:57   being horrible and toxic and [TS]

01:21:59   disrespectful of everyone including [TS]

01:22:01   especially women [TS]

01:22:03   this is not the first time they've had [TS]

01:22:04   problems with problems with women in [TS]

01:22:06   particular like [TS]

01:22:08   it's not the first one not by a long [TS]

01:22:10   shot and so this his whole thing about [TS]

01:22:14   i'm shocked i'm gonna you know [TS]

01:22:16   investigators immediately that's BS [TS]

01:22:17   that's complete BS like yeah so I don't [TS]

01:22:20   believe that for a second [TS]

01:22:21   none of this should be forgiven and none [TS]

01:22:23   of it should be isolated to a couple bad [TS]

01:22:26   apples in the HR department because it's [TS]

01:22:28   not that it's it's a deep-rooted [TS]

01:22:30   cultural problem systemic failure it is [TS]

01:22:32   absolutely a systemic failure and it [TS]

01:22:34   comes right from the top [TS]

01:22:36   it comes right from the top but that's [TS]

01:22:37   why this is such a great example like [TS]

01:22:39   very very often people who are not [TS]

01:22:40   steeped in these issues don't spend all [TS]

01:22:42   the time you know we're reading about [TS]

01:22:44   them what ever hear the phrase [TS]

01:22:45   institutional underscore institutional [TS]

01:22:48   sexism institutional bias or whatever [TS]

01:22:50   and it seems like a buzz or anything [TS]

01:22:52   that doesn't make any sense but a [TS]

01:22:54   reasonable working definition is based [TS]

01:22:57   on examples like this where you find [TS]

01:22:59   yourself in a situation where there but [TS]

01:23:02   there is some kind of institution or [TS]

01:23:03   authority that structure could be the [TS]

01:23:05   government but it could also be the [TS]

01:23:06   company that you work for which even [TS]

01:23:07   though it is not the government it is it [TS]

01:23:09   is it a you know at an organizational [TS]

01:23:11   structure with authority over your life [TS]

01:23:13   that you work within for as long as you [TS]

01:23:15   decide you want to work there and in [TS]

01:23:18   this case as in so many other cases in [TS]

01:23:20   many other companies you know forever [TS]

01:23:22   and ever [TS]

01:23:23   the institution has certain attitudes [TS]

01:23:29   towards whatever you might be whether be [TS]

01:23:31   minorities are older people or women or [TS]

01:23:34   whatever and those those policies and [TS]

01:23:38   and biases and views come through in the [TS]

01:23:41   rules that govern everybody else so you [TS]

01:23:44   have an HR department that it was [TS]

01:23:46   functioning well in its role as Marco [TS]

01:23:48   described it to protect the company from [TS]

01:23:50   its people you know part of this it did [TS]

01:23:53   at like HR like any other part of the [TS]

01:23:54   company's supposed to make the company [TS]

01:23:57   more successful so if there is a [TS]

01:23:59   problematic employee HR has to deal with [TS]

01:24:02   that that employees doing things that [TS]

01:24:04   could get the company sued it is in the [TS]

01:24:06   company and hrs best interest to solve [TS]

01:24:08   that problem and the most reasonable way [TS]

01:24:12   to solve it is to try to make the [TS]

01:24:14   company a place where people want to [TS]

01:24:16   work and that usually means taking the [TS]

01:24:18   toxic person and [TS]

01:24:19   you know disciplining them are getting [TS]

01:24:21   rid of them right [TS]

01:24:22   it becomes much more difficult when that [TS]

01:24:25   person is high up in the organization or [TS]

01:24:26   as they say in this thing is a high [TS]

01:24:28   performer [TS]

01:24:29   yeah and that person is valuable to the [TS]

01:24:31   company right right right but but you [TS]

01:24:33   know there is that the larger value to [TS]

01:24:35   the company but anyway these [TS]

01:24:36   institutions have control over many of [TS]

01:24:39   these employees lives for as long as [TS]

01:24:40   they work at the company and yes it is [TS]

01:24:42   always optional it just get another job [TS]

01:24:44   someplace else but the thing about [TS]

01:24:45   institutional sexism or any other sort [TS]

01:24:48   of institutional biases it's not always [TS]

01:24:51   clear and it very often is not the case [TS]

01:24:53   and it's very difficult to tell that if [TS]

01:24:54   i were to leave this tech job and go to [TS]

01:24:56   a different tech job will that company [TS]

01:24:58   have better attitudes towards you know [TS]

01:25:01   what whatever my thing is but it's [TS]

01:25:03   minorities or women or maybe maybe not [TS]

01:25:05   like that that's a selling point of a [TS]

01:25:07   company but if you're in this control is [TS]

01:25:09   a it's not that easy to change jobs and [TS]

01:25:10   be if you're within this control [TS]

01:25:12   structure these these policies and [TS]

01:25:15   attitudes and the things that will [TS]

01:25:17   happen to you uh seem like an injustice [TS]

01:25:20   because they are injustice because you [TS]

01:25:24   view the the authority of the company as [TS]

01:25:28   the arbiter of that you know the rules [TS]

01:25:32   of play within the company it's not as [TS]

01:25:33   if people are getting murdered right so [TS]

01:25:35   it's not it's not the most part usually [TS]

01:25:36   not a criminal type of thing it is here [TS]

01:25:38   are the rules as set out and if there [TS]

01:25:40   are any violation of the rules or [TS]

01:25:43   violation of what I think should be the [TS]

01:25:44   norms there is an authority that I [TS]

01:25:46   appeal to whether it be my manager my [TS]

01:25:48   manager's manager at the HR department [TS]

01:25:50   whatever it may be [TS]

01:25:51   for example he found in an error in your [TS]

01:25:53   payroll like you know you got paid the [TS]

01:25:55   wrong amount you go to the payroll [TS]

01:25:56   department and in a functioning company [TS]

01:25:58   the payroll department job is to make [TS]

01:26:00   sure that everybody gets paid the amount [TS]

01:26:02   they're supposed to be paid and if [TS]

01:26:03   there's an error and you brought to the [TS]

01:26:04   payroll department if the institution is [TS]

01:26:07   functioning correctly they would correct [TS]

01:26:10   the error or tell you that is not an [TS]

01:26:12   error because they did some weird thing [TS]

01:26:13   with taxes that they would then explain [TS]

01:26:14   to you [TS]

01:26:15   that's the function of the payroll [TS]

01:26:16   department think anybody would argue [TS]

01:26:17   with like a you know like it would seem [TS]

01:26:20   like an injustice if you found your [TS]

01:26:21   missing hundred bucks on your paycheck [TS]

01:26:22   and you brought to the payroll [TS]

01:26:24   department of the institution that you [TS]

01:26:26   are in and they didn't correct that [TS]

01:26:28   error tried to tell you that you did [TS]

01:26:29   your math wrong or said well it's only [TS]

01:26:31   its first time we made this mistake [TS]

01:26:33   don't worry about it like that would [TS]

01:26:35   feel like an injustice even though you [TS]

01:26:37   know it it's just a payroll department [TS]

01:26:39   the company work and if you don't like [TS]

01:26:40   it get another job right that's the [TS]

01:26:41   whole attitude you here but it is an [TS]

01:26:44   injustice because that's what the fuck [TS]

01:26:45   that thing is positive so if the company [TS]

01:26:47   says all we were all inclusive employer [TS]

01:26:49   and we love everybody and you know we [TS]

01:26:51   certainly don't condone sexual [TS]

01:26:53   harassment which any company will take [TS]

01:26:54   it will say if you ask them hey company [TS]

01:26:56   X you can on sexual harassment they're [TS]

01:26:57   all say they don't write so it's their [TS]

01:26:59   stated policy not to so this happens to [TS]

01:27:02   you in a company in any company that [TS]

01:27:04   stage is going to say that and you take [TS]

01:27:07   this thing to the authority of the [TS]

01:27:08   institution that you are working within [TS]

01:27:10   and you say hey HR department were [TS]

01:27:12   supposed to be a company in which people [TS]

01:27:15   don't get sexually harassed it's my [TS]

01:27:16   first day of my job and my boss was [TS]

01:27:18   propositioning me for sex [TS]

01:27:20   here you go it's on a silver platter now [TS]

01:27:22   HR do do your job as stated you know [TS]

01:27:25   like it's and again it's not as if like [TS]

01:27:27   I'm expecting a charter to protect me [TS]

01:27:29   they should be protecting the company by [TS]

01:27:31   having someone like this in it because [TS]

01:27:33   it's against their state of policy and [TS]

01:27:35   it's bad for business period the only [TS]

01:27:38   reason you wouldn't do that if is it [TS]

01:27:40   there is institutional bias and sexism [TS]

01:27:42   from the highest levels to say actually [TS]

01:27:45   the strategy want to take here is to [TS]

01:27:47   sweep that under the carpet to shuffle [TS]

01:27:50   the victim off someplace else to put the [TS]

01:27:52   blame on them to to give them an option [TS]

01:27:54   like well you can either stay in this [TS]

01:27:55   manner but he's gonna give you a bad [TS]

01:27:57   performance review because we're going [TS]

01:27:58   to totally tell him that you reported [TS]

01:27:59   him and if he does give you a bad [TS]

01:28:01   performance review [TS]

01:28:01   you really only have yourself to blame [TS]

01:28:03   for report like I'm not making this up [TS]

01:28:04   reading the thing this is what's [TS]

01:28:05   happening in the company you really only [TS]

01:28:07   have yourself to blame [TS]

01:28:08   and because we did give you the option [TS]

01:28:10   to transfer someplace else and the [TS]

01:28:11   employers like but but this is the [TS]

01:28:13   department i want to be in this is where [TS]

01:28:14   my skills that lies in my transfer have [TS]

01:28:16   to learn your thing like well we gave [TS]

01:28:17   you a choice or you just quit your job [TS]

01:28:20   like they don't mention that but it's [TS]

01:28:21   always an option right you always just [TS]

01:28:22   quit your job but she had skills that [TS]

01:28:25   were a perfect fit for the job that she [TS]

01:28:27   was in she enjoyed doing it technically [TS]

01:28:29   she liked some of the people she was [TS]

01:28:30   working with there's just one niggling [TS]

01:28:32   problem right hunt being sexually [TS]

01:28:34   harassed at work so she ended up [TS]

01:28:35   transferring to a different apartment [TS]

01:28:36   which is painful and did what like it's [TS]

01:28:38   just it's such a terrible story of the [TS]

01:28:41   inno and then she had problems there as [TS]

01:28:43   well and other issues and she would [TS]

01:28:44   bring them to HR and they would do the [TS]

01:28:45   same thing and I [TS]

01:28:46   about all the other people this is [TS]

01:28:48   institutional sexism where the [TS]

01:28:50   institution is working against her she [TS]

01:28:52   has a reasonable expectation according [TS]

01:28:54   to state policies of the company that [TS]

01:28:55   the people whose job it is to be the the [TS]

01:28:57   the referees for this area just like the [TS]

01:29:00   payroll department the referee for how [TS]

01:29:01   much you get paid are failing to act and [TS]

01:29:05   that is like the definition of injustice [TS]

01:29:06   and when it's an institution its [TS]

01:29:08   definition of institutional sexism and [TS]

01:29:10   you can expand that out any institution [TS]

01:29:11   you want whether it be your family unit [TS]

01:29:14   at the smallest institution where maybe [TS]

01:29:15   everyone in your family takes all the [TS]

01:29:17   wife should stay at home with their kids [TS]

01:29:18   all way up to the government with [TS]

01:29:20   policies that are you know biased in in [TS]

01:29:23   one direction other against people who [TS]

01:29:25   are minorities or people who are women [TS]

01:29:27   which is the opposite of a minority and [TS]

01:29:30   so that that's what's maddening to like [TS]

01:29:33   this the reason you know the whole [TS]

01:29:34   social justice movement and the [TS]

01:29:37   pejorative sjw that's used the reason [TS]

01:29:41   they have the word justice in them is [TS]

01:29:42   because all of them derived from a [TS]

01:29:44   recognition that every large grouping [TS]

01:29:47   organizational structure has you know [TS]

01:29:51   has your behavior as an overall organism [TS]

01:29:55   that is it emerges from the attitudes of [TS]

01:29:58   the people running it and despite what [TS]

01:30:01   people may say it's pretty easy to find [TS]

01:30:04   out if you're in a situation where the [TS]

01:30:06   institution is working against you and [TS]

01:30:09   where the supposed places you go to [TS]

01:30:12   resolve whatever issues you have whether [TS]

01:30:15   it's a discrepancy in your paycheck or [TS]

01:30:17   someone violating what you think is an [TS]

01:30:18   HR policy if those institutions fail to [TS]

01:30:22   act or actively work against you that [TS]

01:30:25   feels like and is an injustice and [TS]

01:30:27   that's what people are fighting against [TS]

01:30:29   you know and i think that the payroll [TS]

01:30:31   analogy is the one that probably works [TS]

01:30:34   because most people think that's a [TS]

01:30:35   no-brainer like they understand the role [TS]

01:30:37   the payroll department and if they don't [TS]

01:30:38   get paid the money they were promised [TS]

01:30:40   that is an injustice but you you apply [TS]

01:30:42   the exact same thing to other things [TS]

01:30:43   like well he's a really nice guy he's [TS]

01:30:46   really important in the company and [TS]

01:30:48   can't just change to a different place [TS]

01:30:50   because like like it just boggles my [TS]

01:30:54   mind that any modern company like these [TS]

01:30:55   things would ever happen is almost sound [TS]

01:30:57   fantastical but then you'll hear the [TS]

01:30:59   same story [TS]

01:31:00   from tons like to talk to women that you [TS]

01:31:02   know who worked in large companies for [TS]

01:31:03   any part of their career you'll hear the [TS]

01:31:05   same stories everywhere and that's [TS]

01:31:07   another clue to you that this is an [TS]

01:31:08   institutional thing it's not just uber [TS]

01:31:09   that whoever is a bad company over is [TS]

01:31:11   the one bad apple everybody else is fine [TS]

01:31:13   it is everywhere it is systemic is [TS]

01:31:16   societal it is cultural it is [TS]

01:31:18   institutional that's that's the [TS]

01:31:19   definition and that's why the stories [TS]

01:31:22   like this is depressing because no [TS]

01:31:24   matter what uber does a is probably not [TS]

01:31:26   going to change uber because i haven't [TS]

01:31:29   changed by now they're probably never [TS]

01:31:30   will and B it's not going to solve the [TS]

01:31:33   problem and all the other places the [TS]

01:31:34   only way you can fix it systemically is [TS]

01:31:36   with systemic solutions and cultural [TS]

01:31:37   change and all the stuff that takes [TS]

01:31:39   really long time and it's very difficult [TS]

01:31:41   to do and that's why stories like this [TS]

01:31:43   are very depressing and since since this [TS]

01:31:47   original blog post was written and in [TS]

01:31:49   just the last few hours we record [TS]

01:31:51   somebody's tweeted will put a link to it [TS]

01:31:52   that a hundred and eighteen people have [TS]

01:31:55   resigned or given their notice since [TS]

01:31:57   yesterday which i guess is tuesday it [TS]

01:32:00   was within the last couple days is [TS]

01:32:01   really what it amounts to [TS]

01:32:02   and that was only in San Francisco this [TS]

01:32:04   is that over in San Francisco like [TS]

01:32:06   that's a lot of people hundred twenty [TS]

01:32:08   people and and you know III power to you [TS]

01:32:11   man if you are willing to to stand up [TS]

01:32:15   for this in and say I cannot be a part [TS]

01:32:18   of this anymore like here again like I [TS]

01:32:21   like to think of myself as reasonably [TS]

01:32:22   woke but if I mean I don't know if I [TS]

01:32:24   would have the the gumption to just walk [TS]

01:32:26   away from my job that's putting food on [TS]

01:32:28   my table like that's awesome and I men [TS]

01:32:31   or women you know it doesn't matter [TS]

01:32:33   whoever whoever these hundred eighteen [TS]

01:32:34   people are good for you that that's [TS]

01:32:36   tremendous that you put your money where [TS]

01:32:39   your mouth is and and yeah I can't [TS]

01:32:41   emphasize enough like I see it from time [TS]

01:32:43   to time at my work and I and i'm not [TS]

01:32:48   even necessarily like I don't have my [TS]

01:32:50   antenna up if you will to like search [TS]

01:32:52   for it i just see it from time to time [TS]

01:32:53   and I try to do my best to correct it [TS]

01:32:56   when it happens but this stuff happens [TS]

01:32:58   everywhere it's not unique to San [TS]

01:32:59   Francisco it's not unique to offer [TS]

01:33:01   although over seems to be excelling in [TS]

01:33:03   this department [TS]

01:33:04   it's everywhere and and it's up to [TS]

01:33:07   everyone but particularly those of us [TS]

01:33:10   who are not up [TS]

01:33:12   dressed like the three of us to give [TS]

01:33:16   credence to the stories of those who are [TS]

01:33:19   to pay attention to the stories of those [TS]

01:33:22   who are and to try to fix or speak for [TS]

01:33:26   or really even better give the [TS]

01:33:28   microphone to which is comical since i'm [TS]

01:33:30   talking into a microphone now and not [TS]

01:33:32   doing this but anyway give the [TS]

01:33:34   microphone to someone who is depressed [TS]

01:33:35   and and who didn't allow them to speak [TS]

01:33:38   for themselves [TS]

01:33:39   the other thing i like about this post [TS]

01:33:41   is I think it does a good job of [TS]

01:33:43   explaining why someone might stay in a [TS]

01:33:45   job like this happens because it's [TS]

01:33:47   always the reactions like well just quit [TS]

01:33:48   if you don't like it just quit right [TS]

01:33:50   there are mitigating factors one of [TS]

01:33:53   which maybe you really like the work [TS]

01:33:55   you're doing and it's technically [TS]

01:33:57   interesting and you are you know growing [TS]

01:33:59   your skills and maybe even like the [TS]

01:34:01   people you work with right you know it's [TS]

01:34:03   very possible to be in a company whose [TS]

01:34:05   institutions are failing you but [TS]

01:34:07   nevertheless you you enjoy your peers [TS]

01:34:09   and employees maybe you enjoy your [TS]

01:34:11   direct manager but you know that you [TS]

01:34:13   don't takes one bad person and then 11 [TS]

01:34:17   non-functioning institution to fail to [TS]

01:34:20   you know to fail to do its job to [TS]

01:34:22   protect the company from toxic employees [TS]

01:34:25   like this to you know like your [TS]

01:34:27   retention is part of the job of HR 100 [TS]

01:34:29   people quit because something like this [TS]

01:34:31   that you are not doing its job right but [TS]

01:34:33   it's like why does she stay in this job [TS]

01:34:35   i think this this article has a good [TS]

01:34:37   description of why someone but why it's [TS]

01:34:38   not just like oh well someone you know [TS]

01:34:41   said something you know Lou to me and [TS]

01:34:44   therefore i got to quit the next day and [TS]

01:34:45   if you don't quit the next day it's your [TS]

01:34:46   own fault right [TS]

01:34:47   that's a ridiculous thing like people [TS]

01:34:49   are more complicated than just did [TS]

01:34:51   they're not you know it's not just one [TS]

01:34:53   thing right and so that's why this thing [TS]

01:34:55   is like reflecting on a very strange [TS]

01:34:57   year like it is very even-handed and I [TS]

01:35:00   think when you read it you can see the [TS]

01:35:02   excitement of working for a company will [TS]

01:35:04   help with a lot of VC money doing [TS]

01:35:05   interesting technical stuff with people [TS]

01:35:07   that you enjoy and expanding your skills [TS]

01:35:08   and generally having a career [TS]

01:35:10   the thing that most people get to have [TS]

01:35:11   like and that is that is the tension do [TS]

01:35:13   you want to have a career or your entire [TS]

01:35:15   career going to be sending reports HR [TS]

01:35:18   every time someone does something that [TS]

01:35:19   you just like I should have to choose [TS]

01:35:21   between those two things like can't I [TS]

01:35:23   have a career and not be sexually [TS]

01:35:25   arrested that is [TS]

01:35:26   not even an option on the table I'm and [TS]

01:35:28   so it makes people have these ridiculous [TS]

01:35:31   choices like well it's not really that [TS]

01:35:34   bad is it and I guess I'll just tolerate [TS]

01:35:37   it and I just keep reporting it to HR [TS]

01:35:39   may be able to do something eventually [TS]

01:35:40   and it's just it's not a healthy [TS]

01:35:42   situation but like the expectation that [TS]

01:35:47   everything is your fault if you don't [TS]

01:35:50   immediately storm out and quit the first [TS]

01:35:53   time someone does something you don't [TS]

01:35:54   like [TS]

01:35:55   otherwise like it as the HR department [TS]

01:35:57   well it's really your own fault that [TS]

01:35:59   point he's going to give you negative [TS]

01:36:00   performance review but you can't really [TS]

01:36:01   blame the guy right and I mean like that [TS]

01:36:04   might have been over a lot of people's [TS]

01:36:05   lines but it really depends on what [TS]

01:36:08   state you are in your career and how [TS]

01:36:09   much you know the world and you know [TS]

01:36:11   what capacity you have to leave your job [TS]

01:36:13   at that moment and how excited you are [TS]

01:36:15   to be able to work in this thing is like [TS]

01:36:18   well it's just that one bad person and [TS]

01:36:19   working doing different department i [TS]

01:36:20   want to deal with them but there's [TS]

01:36:21   always people work you don't have to [TS]

01:36:22   deal with and if you lived your entire [TS]

01:36:24   life as a woman in virtually any culture [TS]

01:36:26   in the entire history of the universe [TS]

01:36:28   you are sadly very used to dealing with [TS]

01:36:31   people crapping on you and treating you [TS]

01:36:33   badly and so have probably internalize [TS]

01:36:36   some notion that this is a thing that [TS]

01:36:38   you have to tolerate to get ahead in the [TS]

01:36:39   world and and sadly you're also probably [TS]

01:36:41   kind of write about it [TS]

01:36:43   I'm so that's that's like I think we'll [TS]

01:36:45   give people reading this thing will give [TS]

01:36:48   people a better idea of what of what it [TS]

01:36:51   might be like to be in the situation and [TS]

01:36:53   why you might not do all the things that [TS]

01:36:55   I'm assuming people down in the comments [TS]

01:36:56   are screaming that this person was [TS]

01:36:58   supposed to do just you know run out [TS]

01:37:00   with your hair on fire at the first sign [TS]

01:37:02   of anything going wrong which honestly [TS]

01:37:04   might have actually been the better [TS]

01:37:06   choice indicated a goober butt is not a [TS]

01:37:10   realistic thing to demand of people [TS]

01:37:12   otherwise they somehow lose their right [TS]

01:37:13   to justice and somehow lose their lose [TS]

01:37:16   their expectation of being in a [TS]

01:37:18   functioning institution that doesn't [TS]

01:37:19   hate them [TS]

01:37:20   yeah it's just ridiculous it in and [TS]

01:37:22   again I know I said it before but truly [TS]

01:37:24   it is worth your time to read this [TS]

01:37:26   entire post it is extremely well [TS]

01:37:28   thought-out and extremely mature and it [TS]

01:37:30   just spells out the facts the way Susan [TS]

01:37:32   saw them and [TS]

01:37:33   and I believe every word of it and I [TS]

01:37:37   mean even if even hypothetically if this [TS]

01:37:39   was you know laced with BS which again I [TS]

01:37:42   i truly do not believe this this to me [TS]

01:37:46   sounds like something that absolutely [TS]

01:37:47   could have happened and maybe and maybe [TS]

01:37:50   if it if it didn't happen to me now to [TS]

01:37:51   bend over but this this is stuff that [TS]

01:37:53   happens every day and I don't see it and [TS]

01:37:56   i wanna i wanna I'm trying to in part by [TS]

01:37:59   talking to the three of you and anyone [TS]

01:38:01   else that's listening or two of you got [TS]

01:38:03   i can count it's late we but it i'm [TS]

01:38:06   trying to to open my eyes wider to these [TS]

01:38:09   sorts of things and be more aware of [TS]

01:38:11   them and and try to figure out how I can [TS]

01:38:13   react appropriately in these situations [TS]

01:38:16   but golly this is this is just bananas [TS]

01:38:19   and in i am there's also an opportunity [TS]

01:38:22   for people at their jobs to a minute and [TS]

01:38:26   i know it's my job that has sparked this [TS]

01:38:28   discussion and I think you know whatever [TS]

01:38:31   then you have to have this discussion if [TS]

01:38:33   you work for a company like people might [TS]

01:38:35   be talking about the story especially if [TS]

01:38:36   you're in the tech industry it's time to [TS]

01:38:38   ask around pay has any good HR [TS]

01:38:43   department should be doing this hey does [TS]

01:38:44   anyone in our company feel like they [TS]

01:38:46   can't go to HR or has gone to HR and has [TS]

01:38:49   felt like HR has failed them in some way [TS]

01:38:51   things like this happen all the time I [TS]

01:38:54   mean that you know people are people and [TS]

01:38:55   there's always communication gaps but [TS]

01:38:56   it's like a teachable moment type thing [TS]

01:38:59   where would a good company will do with [TS]

01:39:01   a good HR department is use this to say [TS]

01:39:05   if this is happening here we don't want [TS]

01:39:08   it to and let us know and employee [TS]

01:39:12   should talk amongst themselves like [TS]

01:39:13   sometimes people don't talk about you [TS]

01:39:14   know like they'll report some of the HR [TS]

01:39:16   but maybe you don't tell like your peers [TS]

01:39:17   that you did that you know because you [TS]

01:39:19   don't want to because you fear [TS]

01:39:20   retribution which is itself a very bad [TS]

01:39:22   sign right off the bat but sometimes it [TS]

01:39:24   takes something like this like it's the [TS]

01:39:26   same reason they didn't know the the [TS]

01:39:28   woman's company didn't get together [TS]

01:39:29   immediately they had to eventually [TS]

01:39:31   figure out late but I reported that same [TS]

01:39:32   guy and they told me it was the first [TS]

01:39:33   time like these conversations need to [TS]

01:39:35   happen and health company should happen [TS]

01:39:37   and as this story went around people at [TS]

01:39:41   you know at my job [TS]

01:39:42   people started talking about it and you [TS]

01:39:44   know talking about their experiences [TS]

01:39:46   with HR [TS]

01:39:47   at our company and and and how it [TS]

01:39:49   compares to this story and like if you [TS]

01:39:52   don't hear about these stories and you [TS]

01:39:54   don't think it's happening your company [TS]

01:39:55   maybe it's totally not but maybe it is [TS]

01:39:57   you're just not hearing about it because [TS]

01:39:58   it hasn't happened to you and the people [TS]

01:39:59   has happened to you haven't felt like [TS]

01:40:01   they could tell you for you know and [TS]

01:40:03   like the worst it is probably the more [TS]

01:40:05   hesitant people will be to share these [TS]

01:40:07   stories because it really is bad and you [TS]

01:40:09   really are punished for reporting it and [TS]

01:40:12   this and you know the HR justifies [TS]

01:40:14   retaliation against you based on and [TS]

01:40:16   everything you're not going to tell your [TS]

01:40:18   coworkers that it's happening you're [TS]

01:40:19   going to keep your mouth shut and you're [TS]

01:40:20   not going to report another one because [TS]

01:40:21   you need this job like that's the case [TS]

01:40:23   wherever and clams up where is if there [TS]

01:40:25   really is an expectation and a [TS]

01:40:26   functioning HR department and someone [TS]

01:40:28   has a bad interaction and they they [TS]

01:40:29   should feel free to tell everyone that [TS]

01:40:32   all their co-workers and their boss [TS]

01:40:34   about it because they have an [TS]

01:40:35   expectation like this is not functioning [TS]

01:40:36   correctly and you know i was told [TS]

01:40:38   something that does not seem to comport [TS]

01:40:40   with the suppose that policies of this [TS]

01:40:42   company and that's the only way these [TS]

01:40:44   things get worked out because if people [TS]

01:40:46   are just quiet and go about their [TS]

01:40:47   business and try not to rock the boat [TS]

01:40:49   like that's not a good culture for [TS]

01:40:50   anything but you know it period in a [TS]

01:40:53   company was certainly a good culture for [TS]

01:40:54   making sure you have making sure you [TS]

01:40:57   have a company that is that is able to [TS]

01:41:00   retain employees good employees because [TS]

01:41:02   this person seems like a good employee [TS]

01:41:03   mean she she wrote a Riley book on the [TS]

01:41:05   topic and speak at conferences it's not [TS]

01:41:07   like she's just this random cog in the [TS]

01:41:09   machine right I'll just throw her away [TS]

01:41:10   we don't need to have that's right more [TS]

01:41:11   important to protect the high the high [TS]

01:41:13   performing sexual harasser it's [TS]

01:41:16   ridiculous but anyway a good HR [TS]

01:41:17   department will try to make a company [TS]

01:41:19   that is attractive to employees people [TS]

01:41:21   want to work there and once they do work [TS]

01:41:22   there they want to stay there that is [TS]

01:41:24   that you know it again it is not a role [TS]

01:41:27   that is in service of the employee but [TS]

01:41:28   it's a virtuous cycle if the HR [TS]

01:41:31   department realizes that by making it a [TS]

01:41:34   better company to work at they will be [TS]

01:41:36   protecting the company and they will be [TS]

01:41:38   making the company more successful even [TS]

01:41:39   if their main goal is to maine loyalties [TS]

01:41:41   to the company and not to the employee [TS]

01:41:43   was it Thursday of last week the day [TS]

01:41:47   after we recorded that we got a very [TS]

01:41:50   weird announcement out of Apple was a [TS]

01:41:53   Thursday or was it it was sometime after [TS]

01:41:55   we recorded and not too long after he [TS]

01:41:57   recorded 10 minutes after recording yeah [TS]

01:41:59   right that's what it felt like for sure [TS]

01:42:01   I I think Apple strolling us because [TS]

01:42:03   clearly they care about are recording [TS]

01:42:05   schedule [TS]

01:42:06   wdc 2017 has been announced it is a week [TS]

01:42:09   before I thought it would be [TS]

01:42:12   it is the 5th to 9th of june i had [TS]

01:42:15   guests and I was pretty confident it [TS]

01:42:16   would be the following week i'm wrong [TS]

01:42:18   I'd also guessed it would be in san [TS]

01:42:19   francisco and that's not right either so [TS]

01:42:21   it's going to san jose which apparently [TS]

01:42:24   is the most boring big city and all of [TS]

01:42:28   America from what I'm told [TS]

01:42:30   so that's the thing people who say that [TS]

01:42:33   have never been to any other cities in [TS]

01:42:35   America that's true and I mean I've [TS]

01:42:37   never been to san jose and I've heard [TS]

01:42:40   it's nice but I don't really know [TS]

01:42:42   anything about it but one way or another [TS]

01:42:44   they have announced wdc they've [TS]

01:42:46   announced dates this is way sooner than [TS]

01:42:50   they've done it in many years usually [TS]

01:42:51   it's like april or even may when they [TS]

01:42:53   announced that that.oh in a couple of [TS]

01:42:55   days you can buy tickets so get ready [TS]

01:42:58   and this is convenient if you're [TS]

01:43:00   somebody like us that's probably gonna [TS]

01:43:03   go regardless of whether or not you have [TS]

01:43:04   a ticket [TS]

01:43:05   it's also can mean if you're someone [TS]

01:43:07   that doesn't live in the United States [TS]

01:43:08   and needs to work out you know the entry [TS]

01:43:13   procedure and i'm just going to dance [TS]

01:43:15   around this whole topic it's just it's [TS]

01:43:17   nice to know wait advance and I think [TS]

01:43:19   part of if not most of the reason that [TS]

01:43:21   it was announced this far out is because [TS]

01:43:23   it's not san francisco and that changes [TS]

01:43:24   things and nobody really knows how it [TS]

01:43:27   changes things although i bet you were [TS]

01:43:29   going to talk about for a while huh [TS]

01:43:31   but it certainly changes things and and [TS]

01:43:34   i'm curious to see how this turns out [TS]

01:43:37   because it certainly gave me pause for a [TS]

01:43:39   minute because everything I've [TS]

01:43:40   understood about san jose is that it is [TS]

01:43:43   a really sleepy town after all the local [TS]

01:43:46   businesses you know go to sleep if you [TS]

01:43:48   will after business hours and a lot of [TS]

01:43:52   the reason that I go to WTC each year is [TS]

01:43:54   so i can hang out with you guys and all [TS]

01:43:56   my other friends and and and mutual [TS]

01:43:58   friends and and socialize and have fun [TS]

01:44:01   and and build the in continue to build [TS]

01:44:04   existing relationships and build new [TS]

01:44:05   relationships [TS]

01:44:07   and I don't know how conducive san jose [TS]

01:44:10   is to that for all I know it could be [TS]

01:44:11   great I mean I I really honestly don't [TS]

01:44:13   know but but it's certainly different [TS]

01:44:16   and you know what whatever how we gonna [TS]

01:44:18   go to the house of prime rib if it's an [TS]

01:44:19   hour away like that's not going to work [TS]

01:44:22   what do you do I think this is terrible [TS]

01:44:23   so I don't know John what do you think [TS]

01:44:27   about all this [TS]

01:44:28   well I don't like I don't like traveling [TS]

01:44:29   and I don't like change and I don't like [TS]

01:44:31   change to travel is it that I got used [TS]

01:44:36   to the flight to San Francisco and the [TS]

01:44:40   arrangements there and have was familiar [TS]

01:44:43   with enough of the city to start to feel [TS]

01:44:44   comfortable you know everything that he [TS]

01:44:47   said we need to change things up like as [TS]

01:44:51   as many people find out like the obvious [TS]

01:44:52   reason they would change this because [TS]

01:44:54   its marketing in for Apple because it's [TS]

01:44:55   closer to their headquarters [TS]

01:44:57   it's got to be cheaper than doing [TS]

01:44:59   anything in san francisco in theory it [TS]

01:45:01   was supposed to be cheaper for attendees [TS]

01:45:02   and practice I don't know if that will [TS]

01:45:05   be the case because obviously all the [TS]

01:45:08   traditional WWDC attendees plus the [TS]

01:45:12   people who go without a ticket for some [TS]

01:45:13   fraction of them anyway are going to [TS]

01:45:16   drive our prices but i did get a hotel [TS]

01:45:20   reservations provisional hotel [TS]

01:45:21   reservations for less money than I could [TS]

01:45:23   have gotten them in San Francisco for [TS]

01:45:24   the same week [TS]

01:45:25   not much less but a little bit less and [TS]

01:45:27   certainly a nice location so it's a [TS]

01:45:29   thousand dollars less the same here but [TS]

01:45:32   I i have not independently confirm this [TS]

01:45:34   but I had people that i saw on Twitter [TS]

01:45:36   saying that within a couple hours of [TS]

01:45:38   this announcement all those prices went [TS]

01:45:40   up to effectively equivalent to San [TS]

01:45:43   Francisco prices until at last couple [TS]

01:45:45   years it is ben and I'm sure we talked [TS]

01:45:48   about this on the show but it has been [TS]

01:45:49   for a middle-of-the-road hotel for the [TS]

01:45:53   area and an admittedly it's not the [TS]

01:45:54   greatest area for like sightseeing and [TS]

01:45:56   there's a bunch of problems with the [TS]

01:45:57   area in which WBC is to happen in San [TS]

01:46:00   Francisco but the point of the matter is [TS]

01:46:01   for a unremarkable hotel but not slummy [TS]

01:46:05   it was like four hundred dollars a night [TS]

01:46:07   i think i spend like 2500 or 3000 [TS]

01:46:11   dollars for a week [TS]

01:46:12   arable five nights in san francisco and [TS]

01:46:14   somebody said to me at some point I wish [TS]

01:46:16   I could remember who was but somebody [TS]

01:46:17   pointed out last couple years in France [TS]

01:46:20   Cisco you're basically buying an Apple [TS]

01:46:23   watch every single night you were there [TS]

01:46:25   and then throwing it away [TS]

01:46:26   that's not expensive hotels but that was [TS]

01:46:28   a huge on ya just everybody say yeah [TS]

01:46:30   okay so that's that's barbaric that's [TS]

01:46:34   just as San Francisco or at least that [TS]

01:46:36   part of san francisco is not a nice [TS]

01:46:38   enough city to justify that kind of [TS]

01:46:39   price like it's just not i'm sorry and [TS]

01:46:41   and so here it is for a fleeting moments [TS]

01:46:44   and san jose's seemed like it would be a [TS]

01:46:46   whole lot better but from what I [TS]

01:46:47   understand all of the excess inventory [TS]

01:46:50   that was a little low priced has been [TS]

01:46:52   snapped up now that very well could be [TS]

01:46:53   because Apple has also bought a bunch of [TS]

01:46:55   hotel rooms for attendees which they've [TS]

01:46:57   done in years past that is very very [TS]

01:46:59   likely Apple almost certainly has [TS]

01:47:02   blocked out discounted rooms for [TS]

01:47:03   attendees so that basically if you plan [TS]

01:47:06   to get to try to get a ticket [TS]

01:47:07   don't book a non-refundable hotel room [TS]

01:47:09   yet right exactly [TS]

01:47:11   yeah the strategy been doing this [TS]

01:47:12   strategy in San Francisco for a few [TS]

01:47:13   years you always soon as you find out [TS]

01:47:15   the dates you look refundable ticket and [TS]

01:47:17   then what i would do is wait to see that [TS]

01:47:19   if I do get a ticket which I have in [TS]

01:47:21   years past [TS]

01:47:22   look at the rates that apple offers for [TS]

01:47:24   like hey we reserve blocker review some [TS]

01:47:26   years the Apple reserved room rate is [TS]

01:47:28   cheaper than the 1i provisionally booked [TS]

01:47:31   sometimes it's actually more expensive [TS]

01:47:32   so it really depends on how quick people [TS]

01:47:35   are on the draw on how quickly the [TS]

01:47:36   hotel's figure out what's going on but [TS]

01:47:38   in this case but by the time you're [TS]

01:47:40   listening to this if you haven't already [TS]

01:47:41   booked something probably apples reserve [TS]

01:47:45   block of room rate is going to be better [TS]

01:47:46   than anything you get right now and [TS]

01:47:48   there are it seems like there are more [TS]

01:47:50   hotels at formerly reasonable prices [TS]

01:47:53   closer to whatever the convention center [TS]

01:47:56   is in San Jose because moscone has some [TS]

01:47:58   super expensive hotels fairly close to [TS]

01:48:01   it and some cheaper ones like 15 minute [TS]

01:48:04   walk away and then it goes down from [TS]

01:48:05   there as soon as a one right around [TS]

01:48:07   within like the same block as a couple [TS]

01:48:08   of big hotels which don't seem as nice [TS]

01:48:10   and we're going for you know a hundred [TS]

01:48:13   and something at night if you were [TS]

01:48:15   really quick on the draw of course now [TS]

01:48:16   they're all 2 for 500 but you know what [TS]

01:48:18   your mind is like my got mine for like [TS]

01:48:20   189 or something I mean I haven't paid a [TS]

01:48:22   rate that low in san francisco in a few [TS]

01:48:24   years [TS]

01:48:25   yeah many times in anything with the one [TS]

01:48:27   in front of it in [TS]

01:48:27   years yeah exactly true that goodness so [TS]

01:48:31   true [TS]

01:48:32   CSO either on the one side so I i guess [TS]

01:48:37   at first that seems like an improvement [TS]

01:48:39   because it seems like it's more [TS]

01:48:41   accessible financially until you have to [TS]

01:48:43   fly there because there seemed to be [TS]

01:48:45   considerably fewer options to get into [TS]

01:48:48   san jose then there are san francisco [TS]

01:48:49   which makes sense San Francisco so much [TS]

01:48:51   bigger Airport from everything I've [TS]

01:48:52   gathered i'm more than a little bitter [TS]

01:48:55   that no matter where i fly out of I'm [TS]

01:48:57   going to have to change planes in the [TS]

01:48:59   past I've driven two hours north bound [TS]

01:49:01   to dulles everyone's favorite airport [TS]

01:49:04   and got a direct flight on virgin [TS]

01:49:05   america which is non sarcastically my [TS]

01:49:08   favorite airline in the states and i [TS]

01:49:10   typically underscore and I have flown on [TS]

01:49:13   the same flights out and back in and [TS]

01:49:16   it's been wonderful and now i'm going to [TS]

01:49:19   have to change planes like an animal [TS]

01:49:20   which I'm perfectly capable of doing but [TS]

01:49:23   I don't care for doing and then that's a [TS]

01:49:26   bummer [TS]

01:49:26   alternatively we could fly to san [TS]

01:49:29   francisco and take like an hour-long [TS]

01:49:30   drive or caltrain or something along [TS]

01:49:32   those lines which is a bummer so getting [TS]

01:49:35   there is a little bit tougher and [TS]

01:49:38   probably more expensive which stinks but [TS]

01:49:42   in the grand scheme of things I think [TS]

01:49:45   this has a lot of potential upside get [TS]

01:49:49   it does make a lot of things different [TS]

01:49:51   and at first glance potentially worse [TS]

01:49:53   but I think it could make a lot of [TS]

01:49:55   things better and also announced today [TS]

01:49:57   we're not going to talk about talk about [TS]

01:49:59   very much the apple campus to has been [TS]

01:50:02   officially named a park and it will [TS]

01:50:05   start to receive employees that are that [TS]

01:50:09   will be moving in in April and WT season [TS]

01:50:13   june so it is certainly possible that [TS]

01:50:17   there will be one or more wdc events at [TS]

01:50:21   Apple park which would be kinda neat i [TS]

01:50:24   guess we'll see what happens [TS]

01:50:27   there's been a lot of like theorizing [TS]

01:50:29   and in scheming about where things like [TS]

01:50:32   the beer bash will happen and where will [TS]

01:50:34   the keynote happen and and we know the [TS]

01:50:37   name of the conference center event so [TS]

01:50:40   or whatever it is that that WBC is [TS]

01:50:41   happening already forgotten what it is [TS]

01:50:43   it doesn't really matter but there's a [TS]

01:50:46   lot of questions about this and [TS]

01:50:48   additionally somewhere on the website or [TS]

01:50:50   maybe was in the announcement they they [TS]

01:50:51   made passing reference to how Apple's [TS]

01:50:54   working with San Jose to kind of have [TS]

01:50:57   stuff to do after hours [TS]

01:50:59   what does that mean does that mean that [TS]

01:51:01   they work with what people like layers [TS]

01:51:04   and all content to get something going [TS]

01:51:06   on but that's not really after hours [TS]

01:51:07   that's during the show so is it is it [TS]

01:51:09   that they're working with the relay [TS]

01:51:11   folks to get something going probably [TS]

01:51:12   not but you never know you know there's [TS]

01:51:14   a million questions here very few [TS]

01:51:16   answers however at least we know when it [TS]

01:51:19   is in the least we know where it is and [TS]

01:51:20   we know that before what feels like 10 [TS]

01:51:23   seconds in advance which is good so I'm [TS]

01:51:26   tentatively optimistic but we'll see how [TS]

01:51:27   we'll see how it works out I'm gonna [TS]

01:51:30   miss the convention center like I don't [TS]

01:51:31   even know what I want is like but as the [TS]

01:51:33   Mosconi was cool looking right yeah I [TS]

01:51:35   like that I like that space [TS]

01:51:37   I mean obviously the Rings themselves or [TS]

01:51:39   like you know boring partitions they [TS]

01:51:40   move around and stuff but i think apple [TS]

01:51:42   always did a good job of making it feel [TS]

01:51:43   so the familiarity will be will be over [TS]

01:51:46   weird the potential upside of San Jose [TS]

01:51:49   is that nerds will be able to more [TS]

01:51:50   thoroughly dominated the place because [TS]

01:51:52   in San Francisco yeah there's a lot of [TS]

01:51:54   nerds and when you're around Moscow [TS]

01:51:55   Niecy a lot of little black WTC jackets [TS]

01:51:58   but service was a big busy city full of [TS]

01:51:59   people going about their business and as [TS]

01:52:01   you move outward nerds don't dominate [TS]

01:52:04   the city like that you know people who [TS]

01:52:05   live in the city and work there are many [TS]

01:52:07   other nerds that people going to work at [TS]

01:52:08   Twitter and stuff right but it's a [TS]

01:52:09   different set of nerds in San Jose [TS]

01:52:12   because the population is lower and you [TS]

01:52:16   know it's just a less of a big city than [TS]

01:52:19   san francisco i would imagine that we [TS]

01:52:21   will dominate more i'm worried a little [TS]

01:52:25   bit about facilities as people point out [TS]

01:52:28   not so much interested in bars but even [TS]

01:52:29   just a simple like a where do you want [TS]

01:52:31   to go for dinner tonight if there's any [TS]

01:52:32   remotely good restaurants they may be [TS]

01:52:34   overwhelmed by the additional volume of [TS]

01:52:36   people but then again it is a convention [TS]

01:52:37   center so maybe they used to it i don't [TS]

01:52:38   know it's hard it's hard to gauge that [TS]

01:52:40   but again [TS]

01:52:41   san Francisco has a much larger capacity [TS]

01:52:43   to absorb people's activities just [TS]

01:52:46   because they're used to hear it's a big [TS]

01:52:48   city there's many more options more [TS]

01:52:49   places to go places that are more used [TS]

01:52:51   to large volumes of people [TS]

01:52:52   on an ongoing basis whereas this surge [TS]

01:52:55   for dvc could be a large as far as San [TS]

01:52:59   Jose since earn or could not be because [TS]

01:53:01   I think maybe their convention center [TS]

01:53:03   regularly houses conventions that are [TS]

01:53:05   seven times size of WTC in which case [TS]

01:53:07   you don't have a big deal and also maybe [TS]

01:53:10   people who previously went to San [TS]

01:53:12   Francisco for WC without a ticket to [TS]

01:53:15   just you know enjoy the company will [TS]

01:53:17   think twice of it either because there's [TS]

01:53:19   not a direct flight or because they [TS]

01:53:20   think they won't be stuff to do you know [TS]

01:53:23   me as much stuff to do or whatever I [TS]

01:53:26   think the idea of people going into san [TS]

01:53:27   francisco from San Jose is crazy because [TS]

01:53:29   that's a ridiculous trip and it's long [TS]

01:53:31   distance even without traffic you don't [TS]

01:53:33   want to make that trip back when you're [TS]

01:53:35   you know me lens at 2am or whatever so I [TS]

01:53:39   mean all certainly I would never do that [TS]

01:53:40   but i think most people wouldn't do that [TS]

01:53:41   you can you imagine getting back in like [TS]

01:53:44   an uber to go ride for an hour at two in [TS]

01:53:47   the morning to go back to the parc 55 no [TS]

01:53:50   hard pass no thank you [TS]

01:53:55   yeah and maybe the weather will be nicer [TS]

01:53:57   might be freezing cold [TS]

01:53:59   my understanding is that factors that it [TS]

01:54:01   will be considerably warmer it seems the [TS]

01:54:03   San Jose is actually in California right [TS]

01:54:06   now okay [TS]

01:54:09   and III from for me because I had flying [TS]

01:54:12   a traveling i'm going to take a direct [TS]

01:54:14   flight to SFO I'm i can't remember I [TS]

01:54:17   can't do the change like 16 hour flight [TS]

01:54:19   I can't do 24 hour flights with an hour [TS]

01:54:21   in between or whatever the hell would be [TS]

01:54:22   if I went through Texas or whatever my [TS]

01:54:24   options are [TS]

01:54:24   I'm curious how you get down to there [TS]

01:54:26   from there and how does that work [TS]

01:54:28   I'll get someone to drive me totally [TS]

01:54:30   fine you have debated doing the same [TS]

01:54:33   thing but especially inbound wear that [TS]

01:54:36   the schedules a little less intense but [TS]

01:54:39   I and Ivan book plane travel yet there [TS]

01:54:41   but I i think what I'll likely do is [TS]

01:54:46   just fly into san jose and in deal with [TS]

01:54:49   the fact that i have to put on my big [TS]

01:54:51   boy pants and change planes at some [TS]

01:54:52   point we'll say our hearing from you [TS]

01:54:55   because your connection got cancelled or [TS]

01:54:57   a mist how excited you are to miss [TS]

01:54:59   registration no true it i agree that [TS]

01:55:02   that's why I like sure i am being a [TS]

01:55:04   little bit of a baby singing [TS]

01:55:06   energy plants but truly like that's why [TS]

01:55:08   i drive two hours because driving two [TS]

01:55:11   hours to a larger airport is something i [TS]

01:55:13   can control when i get stranded in [TS]

01:55:15   dallas or or Charlotte or Chicago or [TS]

01:55:19   something like that [TS]

01:55:20   I'm screwed like there's nothing I can [TS]

01:55:21   do about that at that point so I'm with [TS]

01:55:23   you John I completely understand [TS]

01:55:25   yeah that's one of the many reasons to [TS]

01:55:26   to try to go direct and then for for me [TS]

01:55:29   personally as a potential that I won't [TS]

01:55:31   be able to go at all because my wife [TS]

01:55:33   might have work travel during that time [TS]

01:55:34   and then I wouldn't have anybody who the [TS]

01:55:36   kids so potentially I'm not going at all [TS]

01:55:38   and of course always the option of me [TS]

01:55:40   not going to take enough don't get one [TS]

01:55:41   as always I will have to reconsider [TS]

01:55:44   because i'm not really going there for [TS]

01:55:47   super duper nightlife and drinking i'm [TS]

01:55:49   going to sit in boring recessions and [TS]

01:55:51   learn things and it's not your life of [TS]

01:55:53   the party people yeah right i'm sure i [TS]

01:55:54   shall be terribly missed you will like [TS]

01:55:57   you would be certainly by the two of [TS]

01:55:59   them are gonna be so excited to be able [TS]

01:56:01   to figure out a new recording rig where [TS]

01:56:02   he's got two people live one person [TS]

01:56:03   remote oh god at make me do that that [TS]

01:56:06   would be awful [TS]

01:56:07   yeah anyway I went during the lottery uh [TS]

01:56:10   anyway and hopefully i'll be able to [TS]

01:56:13   wear either work out something with [TS]

01:56:14   childcare or my wife's work travel will [TS]

01:56:16   change because it's not set in stone at [TS]

01:56:18   this point is and i totally i love the [TS]

01:56:20   fact we can start eventually found out [TS]

01:56:22   so much earlier like even before it like [TS]

01:56:24   we can't even put are you know name into [TS]

01:56:28   the Hat for the lottery until the end of [TS]

01:56:30   march so they gave us so much notice [TS]

01:56:32   which is great [TS]

01:56:33   it's like so so much more relaxing [TS]

01:56:35   although the mad rush is still there [TS]

01:56:37   because as soon as everyone but I felt [TS]

01:56:39   like I found out like an hour after [TS]

01:56:41   everybody else did despite the fact that [TS]

01:56:42   through many venues if i just opened my [TS]

01:56:44   eyes I would have known much sooner and [TS]

01:56:46   then I'm scrambling to try to get a [TS]

01:56:48   number with a one in front of it as my [TS]

01:56:50   hotel room rate which i think it barely [TS]

01:56:52   did but I mean all in all i'm i'm [TS]

01:56:55   tentatively excited like I said I i [TS]

01:56:56   think i think this could be a bunch of [TS]

01:57:00   awesome changes now certainly could be [TS]

01:57:02   garbage and it could work out really [TS]

01:57:04   poorly and they'll be nowhere to go [TS]

01:57:05   after hours nothing to do but i'm [TS]

01:57:08   excited i think i think it could be a [TS]

01:57:10   lot of fun and I'm really looking [TS]

01:57:11   forward to seeing how it all turns out [TS]

01:57:13   so I'm we came just a little more the [TS]

01:57:15   venue stuff that we all agree that there [TS]

01:57:17   isn't the [TS]

01:57:18   you know will not be in the Steve Jobs [TS]

01:57:20   theater on a park it's just not enough [TS]

01:57:23   yeah not even close yeah I always wonder [TS]

01:57:25   wonder about the theater why they made [TS]

01:57:27   it i mean i guess for press events [TS]

01:57:28   thousands probably plenty but apples [TS]

01:57:30   handle a lot of press events and bigger [TS]

01:57:32   venues like even the watch event will [TS]

01:57:33   help like 5000 or something so kind of [TS]

01:57:36   wonder why they made it so small [TS]

01:57:38   well I mean I'm sure the rationale was [TS]

01:57:39   basically like you know we can we can [TS]

01:57:42   have some events on campus which we do [TS]

01:57:44   and we get the smaller events that are [TS]

01:57:46   like 5,000 people in the room they just [TS]

01:57:47   having a campus and the rationale was [TS]

01:57:49   probably like to make it meaningfully [TS]

01:57:52   bigger it's like do we want to put a [TS]

01:57:54   5000 person theater and our campus and [TS]

01:57:56   that's a lot of people shove into one [TS]

01:57:58   room it's a really big room it's like [TS]

01:57:59   it's that's probably a massive [TS]

01:58:02   undertaking for relatively little [TS]

01:58:04   benefit like they can just go book a [TS]

01:58:06   place in san francisco for that a tour [TS]

01:58:08   books and was a conference center for [TS]

01:58:09   the Hat and it's probably fine like so I [TS]

01:58:11   hope that all Steve Jobs theater is just [TS]

01:58:13   a facade for the 800 levels of [TS]

01:58:15   sub-basement where they do the car [TS]

01:58:16   development right that's like that the [TS]

01:58:19   underground just in the underground test [TS]

01:58:20   track facility that's a complete a [TS]

01:58:22   recreation of nürburgring yeah that's [TS]

01:58:26   it with artificial sunlight over the [TS]

01:58:27   whole thing [TS]

01:58:28   mmm III would not assume that there's [TS]

01:58:31   going to be any involvement between [TS]

01:58:33   apple's new campus and this in WC like I [TS]

01:58:36   don't think it's gonna be anything there [TS]

01:58:37   they don't really need to and it would [TS]

01:58:39   be a pretty big ordeal like to like [TS]

01:58:41   5,000 people is a lot like to do [TS]