The Accidental Tech Podcast

212: Meatspace Windows


00:00:00   not only to my kids not know how to use [TS]

00:00:02   computers but they all because they [TS]

00:00:05   don't know how to use computers they [TS]

00:00:07   don't know how to fix things on [TS]

00:00:09   computers like they don't even have [TS]

00:00:10   they've never had to fix anything on a [TS]

00:00:12   computer it was like how do you learn [TS]

00:00:14   how to fix crap on computers like [TS]

00:00:16   because when we were kids I Princeton [TS]

00:00:17   know anything so that was known to ask [TS]

00:00:18   and you had to just figure it out [TS]

00:00:20   yourself yeah we kind of broke [TS]

00:00:22   everything and figured out how to fix it [TS]

00:00:23   that's basically how we how we figured [TS]

00:00:25   this all happened my son had a problem [TS]

00:00:27   recently where he was like dad big [TS]

00:00:30   appear only types capital letters and so [TS]

00:00:33   I came over and he was like in a Google [TS]

00:00:34   document and he's like look capital [TS]

00:00:37   letters and it's not caps lock because [TS]

00:00:38   cap lock light on or off either way just [TS]

00:00:41   produces capital letters right and he [TS]

00:00:42   was that was it that was the extent of [TS]

00:00:44   his debugging like he'd he knew catbox [TS]

00:00:46   resisted and he had tried toggling it on [TS]

00:00:49   and off and it confirmed it in one [TS]

00:00:50   position lightest animal position a lot [TS]

00:00:51   is off but either by tap will let us [TS]

00:00:53   come up but that was it he was out of [TS]

00:00:54   ideas hmm and that's not that's not good [TS]

00:00:57   what was it like a stuck shift key so I [TS]

00:00:59   tried another application which is the [TS]

00:01:00   first thing you try is this just Google [TS]

00:01:02   Docs or the browser is everywhere so [TS]

00:01:04   open text edit sure enough only capital [TS]

00:01:05   letters in TextEdit right so I'm like [TS]

00:01:07   like the things you learned from a [TS]

00:01:10   lifetime of debugging the things that [TS]

00:01:12   could potentially solve this problem you [TS]

00:01:13   know so log out right we go to log out [TS]

00:01:17   or you know switch users to master [TS]

00:01:19   troubleshooting step turn everything off [TS]

00:01:20   generically Becca and the login screen i [TS]

00:01:23   went to log into my account and when you [TS]

00:01:24   see the little password thing you see [TS]

00:01:26   the little arrow that tells you that [TS]

00:01:27   thanks cap locks is on you know yep that [TS]

00:01:29   puts me right and so basically it was [TS]

00:01:30   like the computers our caps lock was on [TS]

00:01:32   all the time it wasn't you could look at [TS]

00:01:33   the keyboard and doesn't matter the [TS]

00:01:34   light was on or off but the computer was [TS]

00:01:36   totally convinced the cap locks on it [TS]

00:01:37   off so i unplug the keyboard and plug [TS]

00:01:39   back in and i fixed and my son said to [TS]

00:01:41   me why how could unplugging the keyboard [TS]

00:01:44   and plugging it back in fix it and I was [TS]

00:01:47   like if you've ever fix anything [TS]

00:01:48   computer this fixes a surprising number [TS]

00:01:51   of thing log out and back in unplug and [TS]

00:01:54   replug reboot turn everything off wait [TS]

00:01:56   10 seconds unplug it from the wall wait [TS]

00:01:57   10 seconds all these things have reasons [TS]

00:01:59   behind them but like even if you don't [TS]

00:02:01   know the reasons behind them eventually [TS]

00:02:03   you learn by fixing things that [TS]

00:02:04   sometimes you just have to do crap like [TS]

00:02:06   that and the only way you learn that is [TS]

00:02:08   by actually fixing problems in the real [TS]

00:02:10   world without understanding why they fix [TS]

00:02:13   you just like what [TS]

00:02:14   I do to make this problem go away and [TS]

00:02:15   once it works for you once it is in your [TS]

00:02:17   bag of tricks of like just you know the [TS]

00:02:19   general idea of start the thing over [TS]

00:02:21   again unplug it and plug it back in [TS]

00:02:24   disconnected and reconnected and my kids [TS]

00:02:28   don't even have that they don't even [TS]

00:02:29   have the basics that they don't have any [TS]

00:02:31   understanding of that because they never [TS]

00:02:32   had to fix anything themselves like [TS]

00:02:34   nightmares of like them leaving the [TS]

00:02:35   house and living on their own as an [TS]

00:02:37   adult and having a job and calling me [TS]

00:02:38   and saying cake my TV show I can't watch [TS]

00:02:41   my TV show it's not working like cuz you [TS]

00:02:44   know like Netflix is broken or something [TS]

00:02:45   I feel like this this might be kind of [TS]

00:02:48   how like like whenever anything breaks [TS]

00:02:51   about our house usually you know if it's [TS]

00:02:55   not that critical that it gets fixed you [TS]

00:02:56   know like there isn't water pouring all [TS]

00:02:58   over everything and we're not like [TS]

00:02:59   installing a fire hazard outlet in the [TS]

00:03:01   wall but you know I but if there's you [TS]

00:03:04   know like some like you know we have to [TS]

00:03:05   like hang something that's kind of heavy [TS]

00:03:07   duty on the wall somewhere or we have to [TS]

00:03:10   like fix something that's made of wood [TS]

00:03:12   you know usually those tasks just [TS]

00:03:15   accumulate until my father in law comes [TS]

00:03:18   to visit he will basically just go [TS]

00:03:20   around in the first days here and just [TS]

00:03:21   like fix everything around the house [TS]

00:03:22   that we've been putting off forever and [TS]

00:03:24   I feel like maybe the way that he thinks [TS]

00:03:27   about it or at least the way he should [TS]

00:03:28   think about how we seem to be totally [TS]

00:03:32   incapable of fixing these things [TS]

00:03:34   ourselves might be the same way that you [TS]

00:03:36   are thinking about like how can your son [TS]

00:03:38   possibly not know how to troubleshoot [TS]

00:03:39   these computer issues himself so I gotta [TS]

00:03:42   show up at his house when he's an adult [TS]

00:03:43   and it's like oh thank god you're here [TS]

00:03:45   we haven't been able to watch TV and six [TS]

00:03:47   months maybe we can't figure out why I'm [TS]

00:03:49   gonna go up to television unplug it from [TS]

00:03:51   the wall plug it back in and got a go [TS]

00:03:53   that very well might be how this [TS]

00:03:57   generation plays out my word I feel the [TS]

00:04:02   same way though like I can't think of a [TS]

00:04:03   specific example other than my fired [TS]

00:04:05   hazard plug that isn't actually a fire [TS]

00:04:06   hazard but they're there plenty of [TS]

00:04:09   things that either my dad who was very [TS]

00:04:11   electrically inclined or Aaron's dad who [TS]

00:04:14   in a prior life was a carpenter so he's [TS]

00:04:18   like woodworking inclined there's many [TS]

00:04:20   things that without them I would have to [TS]

00:04:22   either pay someone to do something maybe [TS]

00:04:25   figured out myself in the spare time I [TS]

00:04:27   don't feel [TS]

00:04:27   I have or just live with it forever I [TS]

00:04:30   don't feel that incapable for home [TS]

00:04:33   repair things is my my my parents do my [TS]

00:04:35   father does come and fix everything [TS]

00:04:36   exactly like you were saying your [TS]

00:04:37   father-in-law meet you Marco but but [TS]

00:04:39   it's not because I don't know how to fix [TS]

00:04:41   it it's because I don't want to fix it I [TS]

00:04:44   don't have time to fix it and and he's [TS]

00:04:46   going to do a better job too because i [TS]

00:04:48   have he's fix it more times than me but [TS]

00:04:50   i do know what to do only because i [TS]

00:04:52   spent an entire lifetime watching home [TS]

00:04:54   improvement television just oh I spent a [TS]

00:04:57   lot of time watching but not as much as [TS]

00:04:58   you but I spent a lot time watching the [TS]

00:04:59   shows too so all I can do is be the [TS]

00:05:02   annoying person of like are you sure you [TS]

00:05:03   want to do it that way like I can be [TS]

00:05:05   like that guy which is the worst [TS]

00:05:07   possible Robles that guy yet know it cuz [TS]

00:05:10   like I know just enough to be a little [TS]

00:05:11   like criticize and make stupid comments [TS]

00:05:13   about something but not enough to [TS]

00:05:15   actually do it right myself or to [TS]

00:05:16   realize what the way they did is [TS]

00:05:18   actually correct not what not my amateur [TS]

00:05:21   view of what holmes on homes would think [TS]

00:05:23   is the right thing to do any i keep [TS]

00:05:25   watching them though like I'm severe [TS]

00:05:27   sigh still have season passes for those [TS]

00:05:29   shows I still watch them so then you're [TS]

00:05:31   up to date on the latest technologies [TS]

00:05:32   really just mold generation technologies [TS]

00:05:34   criticizing and in making snarky [TS]

00:05:37   comments whatever it is you said that [TS]

00:05:39   isn't that pretty much our show in a [TS]

00:05:40   nutshell just criticizing from afar not [TS]

00:05:43   really knowing what we're talking about [TS]

00:05:44   but I like to think that we at least III [TS]

00:05:47   think we know more about what we [TS]

00:05:49   criticize on this show then I know about [TS]

00:05:51   home repairs yes yes I would say that's [TS]

00:05:54   definitely the case because if the very [TS]

00:05:57   least all of us do a lot of things [TS]

00:05:58   related to the things we're talking [TS]

00:06:00   about whereas despite me watching home [TS]

00:06:01   improvement shows from my entire life [TS]

00:06:03   I've never built the house not even once [TS]

00:06:04   alright so we should start as always [TS]

00:06:08   with some follow-up and somebody I think [TS]

00:06:10   John phrased this section as pouring [TS]

00:06:13   cold water on Apple USBC notions and so [TS]

00:06:17   we talked last episode about whether or [TS]

00:06:18   not the forthcoming iphone will call it [TS]

00:06:21   for the purposes of this conversation [TS]

00:06:22   the iphone 8 whether the phone itself [TS]

00:06:26   will have a USBC port on it and there [TS]

00:06:29   was a Wall Street Journal report that [TS]

00:06:31   seemed ambiguously to say yes and then [TS]

00:06:34   ming-chi Kuo has come out and said well [TS]

00:06:36   we believe all three new iPhones [TS]

00:06:39   launching launching in the second half [TS]

00:06:40   of 20 [TS]

00:06:41   17 will support fast charging by the [TS]

00:06:43   adoption of type C power delivery [TS]

00:06:45   technology while still retaining [TS]

00:06:48   lightning port so probably sticking with [TS]

00:06:51   lightning port which I think I'm in [TS]

00:06:54   support of but having listened to most [TS]

00:06:56   of the shows that that are like ours I [TS]

00:06:58   cover this sort of thing I feel like I'm [TS]

00:07:00   the only one which makes me wonder if [TS]

00:07:02   I'm just the old man of the crowd all of [TS]

00:07:04   a sudden I was hoping this was a [TS]

00:07:06   reaction to the wall street journal [TS]

00:07:07   story which was weird man big us and had [TS]

00:07:09   everyone talk about us bc and then [TS]

00:07:12   ming-chi kuo just says no no here I know [TS]

00:07:16   how to speak in sentences to have [TS]

00:07:18   meaning that is clear to the reader [TS]

00:07:19   every single new iphone coming this year [TS]

00:07:22   will have a lightning port on the bottom [TS]

00:07:24   boom done and so I'm hoping is just [TS]

00:07:28   simply a clarification I'm hoping what [TS]

00:07:31   it's not is like a competing rumor of [TS]

00:07:33   you know without any particular [TS]

00:07:36   foundation but it certainly seemed like [TS]

00:07:38   that ambiguous story was out there there [TS]

00:07:40   was a lot of chatter and then this thing [TS]

00:07:41   came and just shut everybody up and said [TS]

00:07:44   it's the boring thing never mind yeah I [TS]

00:07:47   mean at some point I think makes you [TS]

00:07:49   quit needs to evolve into just the [TS]

00:07:51   dalrymple just nope yep no I think you [TS]

00:07:57   know as we said last show this we all [TS]

00:08:00   thought this was fairly unlikely to be [TS]

00:08:03   the case that they would have that they [TS]

00:08:04   would replace the Lightning port with [TS]

00:08:05   USBC port I do think it is still worth [TS]

00:08:08   considering as a thought experiment I do [TS]

00:08:11   think that if they were to actually like [TS]

00:08:13   get drunk and do this I I would actually [TS]

00:08:16   welcome that change I think it would be [TS]

00:08:17   it would be temporary pain but long term [TS]

00:08:19   would be great and Apple usually airs on [TS]

00:08:22   that side of that kind of decision [TS]

00:08:23   ultimately though I still think it's [TS]

00:08:27   very unlikely with with one little [TS]

00:08:29   exception that we keep hearing from [TS]

00:08:31   people about the EU regulations about [TS]

00:08:35   phones all having the same connector and [TS]

00:08:37   for the for the last few years ever [TS]

00:08:39   since the introduction of lightning [TS]

00:08:40   basically the EU said all phones have to [TS]

00:08:42   have you know what used to be micro USB [TS]

00:08:45   i have not also been following this very [TS]

00:08:47   closely but what I keep hearing from [TS]

00:08:48   people is that that regulation is [TS]

00:08:51   getting more strict now and that apple [TS]

00:08:54   will no longer [TS]

00:08:54   be able to get away with just shipping [TS]

00:08:56   an adapter that that converts light into [TS]

00:08:58   USB to microUSB rather or in this case I [TS]

00:09:01   assume it's USBC so there's something [TS]

00:09:03   going on there where the EU is putting [TS]

00:09:06   pressure on Apple and I don't know if I [TS]

00:09:07   can negotiate their way out of it again [TS]

00:09:09   but there that there might be something [TS]

00:09:12   there you know like that there might be [TS]

00:09:15   a strong reason for Apple to say okay [TS]

00:09:18   you know what in addition to all the [TS]

00:09:19   other reasons we have to get rid of [TS]

00:09:21   lightning and switched us bc these days [TS]

00:09:23   it would also probably cause less [TS]

00:09:26   friction with the EU and any other kind [TS]

00:09:28   of similar regulatory body around the [TS]

00:09:30   world that might get in the way you know [TS]

00:09:32   I wouldn't expect in the next [TS]

00:09:34   three-and-a-half to seven years that the [TS]

00:09:39   US would really care that much about [TS]

00:09:41   reducing waste in a regulation but I [TS]

00:09:44   imagine other countries that that [TS]

00:09:48   actually have functioning governments [TS]

00:09:49   probably all have similar goals yeah [TS]

00:09:52   that would be awesome right they [TS]

00:09:53   probably all have similar goals of like [TS]

00:09:56   you know reducing electronic waste and [TS]

00:09:58   standardizing on things that really [TS]

00:09:59   matter and stuff like that and so I [TS]

00:10:01   think apples gonna keep getting pressure [TS]

00:10:03   from large markets you know if I mean if [TS]

00:10:05   China did it game over right like [TS]

00:10:07   imagine if China said okay Fortis [TS]

00:10:09   telephone and China after the after you [TS]

00:10:11   know 2017 it has to have us bc on the [TS]

00:10:13   bottom what lightning would be gone the [TS]

00:10:15   next day you know so they can make two [TS]

00:10:17   different they make two different models [TS]

00:10:19   one for that market they've made [TS]

00:10:20   different models with different things [TS]

00:10:22   inside them before but like I China [TS]

00:10:24   could do something like that but my [TS]

00:10:25   understanding of the EU thing is not [TS]

00:10:27   it's not like Apple can't sell it I [TS]

00:10:29   think it's more like a guideline or [TS]

00:10:31   agreement and I'm sure there's some kind [TS]

00:10:33   of carrot and stick thing where if you [TS]

00:10:34   follow along with the agreement [TS]

00:10:35   voluntarily there's you get some boon or [TS]

00:10:38   whatever but I'm not convinced that it's [TS]

00:10:40   a type of thing where like if Apple [TS]

00:10:42   doesn't do it then they can't cell phone [TS]

00:10:44   in Europe and if it wasn't China we're [TS]

00:10:46   trying to can say guess what you have to [TS]

00:10:47   do this no matter what like actually [TS]

00:10:50   make a requirement I think they would [TS]

00:10:51   make a different model if if the [TS]

00:10:53   conversation had not been one inside [TS]

00:10:55   Apple for us be entirely because making [TS]

00:10:57   a different model for China's and is [TS]

00:10:59   probably fine I mean and they have done [TS]

00:11:02   that in the past for other things but it [TS]

00:11:04   seems like you know there's arguments on [TS]

00:11:06   both sides of whether they should do [TS]

00:11:07   this or not [TS]

00:11:08   and so if there's a big thing external a [TS]

00:11:11   big external factor that tips them one [TS]

00:11:13   way or the other they would probably go [TS]

00:11:14   that way right and so if there's like a [TS]

00:11:16   major world market of buying phones that [TS]

00:11:19   demands in a pretty strong way or [TS]

00:11:22   absolutely requires that they that they [TS]

00:11:23   have the standard port on the bottom [TS]

00:11:25   instead of their proprietary report that [TS]

00:11:27   would probably be enough to sway the [TS]

00:11:28   argument one way or the other if there [TS]

00:11:30   were no like massive downsides that we [TS]

00:11:32   aren't thinking of you know if they're [TS]

00:11:34   some kind of major engineering challenge [TS]

00:11:36   of doing it but you know on a brand new [TS]

00:11:38   phone that they could that they have [TS]

00:11:41   designed separately from the iphone 7 [TS]

00:11:43   and 6 god I hope I assuming we finally [TS]

00:11:47   get a new design then they could totally [TS]

00:11:50   do it and I don't see any obvious [TS]

00:11:51   downside we talked to elastic anyway I [TS]

00:11:53   still don't think it's likely i still [TS]

00:11:56   think the most likely scenario is what [TS]

00:11:57   makes you quote said where yeah this [TS]

00:11:59   rumor from the washer no that was [TS]

00:12:01   horribly written got the facts wrong and [TS]

00:12:03   it's actually just us bc on the charger [TS]

00:12:05   end that's the that's the way more [TS]

00:12:08   likely explanation here but i still do [TS]

00:12:11   think it would be better to go us bc on [TS]

00:12:13   both ends or at least the phone end and [TS]

00:12:16   there might be better reason to do that [TS]

00:12:19   we don't know so the hardware mine virus [TS]

00:12:22   worked on me because i was getting all [TS]

00:12:24   excited about us bc phones until i read [TS]

00:12:26   this cold water story oh my god [TS]

00:12:27   nevermind but really what happened [TS]

00:12:29   related to this is my nintendo switch [TS]

00:12:32   did arrive which maybe we'll talk about [TS]

00:12:33   later and and i got a pro controller [TS]

00:12:36   with it and this is the first device [TS]

00:12:38   besides my apple TV which i never plug [TS]

00:12:40   in the USB see things into that i had [TS]

00:12:42   occasion to see and mess with us bc [TS]

00:12:46   connectors with what i got my pro [TS]

00:12:49   control i had to plug it in to charge it [TS]

00:12:51   and there's a little USBC connector [TS]

00:12:52   inside the little switch dock or [TS]

00:12:53   whatever and so i'm holding here the the [TS]

00:12:56   pro controller charging cable and when i [TS]

00:12:59   took us out of the box and plugged it in [TS]

00:13:01   I my immediate thought was oh no way is [TS]

00:13:04   Apple gonna you ever use this thing it's [TS]

00:13:06   huge like I know it's not that much [TS]

00:13:08   bigger than the Lightning it is barely [TS]

00:13:10   bigger than lightning but just seeing it [TS]

00:13:11   in real life like can you imagine how [TS]

00:13:14   putting this thing on the phone no no [TS]

00:13:16   way in hell like obviously this is just [TS]

00:13:17   my gut reaction like I'm not using my [TS]

00:13:19   brain at that point but my my visceral [TS]

00:13:21   reaction [TS]

00:13:21   disconnect here was how massive it was [TS]

00:13:24   compared to lightning I was like if I [TS]

00:13:27   was inside Apple I would like recoil in [TS]

00:13:29   horror at the star of the conversation [TS]

00:13:30   of like remind me again what we do in [TS]

00:13:32   line again it would take a look at this [TS]

00:13:33   look at this giant we can't we can't [TS]

00:13:35   have this on our phones ridiculous [TS]

00:13:36   what's next vga ports Oh God um it [TS]

00:13:40   really is i know that much bigger I know [TS]

00:13:42   I know I was like it it cracked me up [TS]

00:13:44   that that was my reaction like it is not [TS]

00:13:46   that much really I have a lighting [TS]

00:13:47   partner right next to and I'm hold it up [TS]

00:13:48   next to like it is bare millimeters but [TS]

00:13:52   the fact that it's wider and also [TS]

00:13:54   thicker it just makes it seem so much [TS]

00:13:56   more matte so then it doesn't help that [TS]

00:13:57   like I have one of the good old [TS]

00:13:59   lightning connectors here that in front [TS]

00:14:00   of me with a very small plastic part [TS]

00:14:02   that's barely bigger than the metal part [TS]

00:14:03   like it looks so small and dainty it's [TS]

00:14:05   almost like the lightning can go inside [TS]

00:14:07   a USBC port well it almost can because [TS]

00:14:10   of the the gender flows between the [TS]

00:14:12   connector and the and the wire you know [TS]

00:14:14   like like and and that's actually the i [TS]

00:14:16   suspect i don't know those for sure i [TS]

00:14:17   have lived that that deeply into it but [TS]

00:14:19   i suspect the design of us bc probably [TS]

00:14:23   permits for there to be less clearance [TS]

00:14:25   around the port opening like I bet you [TS]

00:14:27   can shrink the device thickness closer [TS]

00:14:30   around the port size with us bc then you [TS]

00:14:33   could around lightning because lighting [TS]

00:14:35   has to have all the pins and everything [TS]

00:14:36   on the inside as opposed to us bc which [TS]

00:14:38   has just like you know the flat [TS]

00:14:39   conductors on the inside so i would [TS]

00:14:41   imagine there might be something there [TS]

00:14:43   with you see also they have tons of room [TS]

00:14:46   they got rid of the headphone jack and [TS]

00:14:47   this other speaker on the bottom is fake [TS]

00:14:49   so they have tons of room I mean I mean [TS]

00:14:53   thickness wise obviously with the [TS]

00:14:54   they're not at a loss for but anyway [TS]

00:14:57   it's it's it's not that big of a deal [TS]

00:14:58   and I still I still think it would be [TS]

00:15:00   cool for them to go us bc but this rumor [TS]

00:15:01   seems to say they're not and so we're [TS]

00:15:03   back to the default universe of Apple [TS]

00:15:05   where it's lighting for a while longer [TS]

00:15:07   yet what I do wish for at least since we [TS]

00:15:10   since we're probably not going to get [TS]

00:15:11   our our USBC on both ends cable does [TS]

00:15:14   anybody make the USBC equivalent of [TS]

00:15:18   these wonderful anchor like five port [TS]

00:15:20   USB chargers like all I've seen out [TS]

00:15:22   there are charges that have one USBC [TS]

00:15:24   port I have not seen any that have like [TS]

00:15:26   five like I would love to standardize on [TS]

00:15:29   just one cable type and just like it [TS]

00:15:31   might like I I'm traveling soon and I'm [TS]

00:15:34   packing my travel [TS]

00:15:35   bag and I have to have all these [TS]

00:15:36   different cable types because it's like [TS]

00:15:38   well I need every combination of [TS]

00:15:39   something on one end and something else [TS]

00:15:40   on the other end and like everything [TS]

00:15:42   between us be a USB see lightning [TS]

00:15:44   microUSB like I have all these stupid [TS]

00:15:46   cable types and these 50 different [TS]

00:15:48   chargers come on I mean anyway so I hope [TS]

00:15:51   I hope there's I hope the USBC ecosystem [TS]

00:15:53   blooms soon because when it does that [TS]

00:15:56   will be even more reason for Apple to [TS]

00:15:58   please for the love of God change the [TS]

00:16:00   iphone use USB see speaking of vga you [TS]

00:16:03   better hope USB a USB type a connector [TS]

00:16:05   doesn't turn out to be the vga port [TS]

00:16:07   hangouts reference you remember like [TS]

00:16:10   remember how long vga held on we had so [TS]

00:16:12   many other standards that like it was [TS]

00:16:13   just like you could not get rid of ej [TS]

00:16:15   just eight states ee on the side of pc [TS]

00:16:17   laptops they stubbornly on projectors [TS]

00:16:19   long after multiple better smaller [TS]

00:16:21   standards existed and really hoping the [TS]

00:16:23   USBA hasn't like gained enough momentum [TS]

00:16:27   that it will not be dislodged by us bc [TS]

00:16:29   for like an extra you know five to ten [TS]

00:16:31   years just because that will be said you [TS]

00:16:34   know it's certain sometimes transitions [TS]

00:16:36   are easier like the second time through [TS]

00:16:37   in this case like the transition from [TS]

00:16:40   dock connector to lightning it was very [TS]

00:16:43   painful but a lot of people took that [TS]

00:16:45   opportunity to not just go to lightning [TS]

00:16:48   for their devices or needs but to just [TS]

00:16:49   go directly to wireless to airplay and [TS]

00:16:51   bluetooth is like that with the with the [TS]

00:16:55   vga in conference room projector [TS]

00:16:57   situation I wonder like how many [TS]

00:16:59   conference rooms actually just went from [TS]

00:17:02   VGA to DVI or lightning and how many [TS]

00:17:06   just switched to other solutions like [TS]

00:17:08   air playing to an apple TV or something [TS]

00:17:10   like that well it's fucking for someone [TS]

00:17:12   doesn't spend a lot of time in corporate [TS]

00:17:13   America ya know they don't have their [TS]

00:17:16   play though airplay as airplay is not [TS]

00:17:20   the answer but I gotta tell you so my [TS]

00:17:21   office is all in on the Google ecosystem [TS]

00:17:23   which it at first glance for an apple [TS]

00:17:26   centric show like ours might sound [TS]

00:17:27   terrible but truth be told it actually [TS]

00:17:30   works out really well and so in most [TS]

00:17:32   conference rooms there's a chromebox and [TS]

00:17:35   I don't know enough about chrome boxes [TS]

00:17:36   to know if there's something special [TS]

00:17:39   about them like I've seen the physical [TS]

00:17:41   cardboard boxes that the chromebox comes [TS]

00:17:43   in and I think it says like chromebox [TS]

00:17:45   for meetings or something like that on [TS]

00:17:46   it the specific specific [TS]

00:17:49   it doesn't matter but what ends up [TS]

00:17:51   happening is there's a TV in each of [TS]

00:17:52   these conference rooms there's a [TS]

00:17:54   chromebox hooked up to the TV and the [TS]

00:17:56   chromebox shows like that rooms schedule [TS]

00:18:00   for the day and you just select you know [TS]

00:18:03   the the current oftentimes the currently [TS]

00:18:05   active button and that will jump into [TS]

00:18:08   the google hangouts for that meeting and [TS]

00:18:11   not having used Google Hangouts prior to [TS]

00:18:13   coming to the company i had heard like a [TS]

00:18:15   lot of mixed things about it i thought [TS]

00:18:17   it would be kind of garbage but it's [TS]

00:18:18   actually pretty nice and that what we'll [TS]

00:18:22   do is if you are trying to present [TS]

00:18:24   something to the meeting you just hop on [TS]

00:18:26   the Hangout on your laptop and it will [TS]

00:18:28   it will thus it implicitly go to the TV [TS]

00:18:32   in the conference room and it will also [TS]

00:18:33   be presented to anyone that happens to [TS]

00:18:35   be remote as well it works out [TS]

00:18:36   surprisingly well and yes there's [TS]

00:18:39   hiccups and coughs and whatnot from time [TS]

00:18:40   to time but it's really solid I was very [TS]

00:18:43   surprised how much I've really gotten to [TS]

00:18:46   like hangouts in this regard when your [TS]

00:18:48   other choices WebEx anything looks good [TS]

00:18:50   yeah that's true too amen brother I have [TS]

00:18:53   so well before we get on topic of [TS]

00:18:55   conference rooms like I remember going [TS]

00:18:58   through this several years back at work [TS]

00:18:59   when we were going through a corporate I [TS]

00:19:03   don't know disturbance upsetedness about [TS]

00:19:07   conference room tech like everyone was [TS]

00:19:09   cranky about it especially the tech [TS]

00:19:11   people and we tried all those things we [TS]

00:19:13   had a Google box we tried to Google [TS]

00:19:15   Hangouts and I you know airplane to [TS]

00:19:19   Apple TVs came up because if you look at [TS]

00:19:21   how much money all the equipment we had [TS]

00:19:23   that we were installing to see how much [TS]

00:19:24   it was costing it's like an apple TV is [TS]

00:19:26   nothing compared to that and this is yet [TS]

00:19:28   another market that Apple could have [TS]

00:19:30   done well in with either a dedicated [TS]

00:19:32   product like a chromecast or just by [TS]

00:19:33   making apple TV better but it was [TS]

00:19:36   basically a non-starter partially [TS]

00:19:38   because you know no airplay on PCs and [TS]

00:19:40   everything but we had a lot of Max and I [TS]

00:19:42   don't think that would have stopped it [TS]

00:19:43   mainly because it was so much of a pain [TS]

00:19:45   to get Apple TV's on to the corporate [TS]

00:19:47   network you could do it but you needed a [TS]

00:19:48   special weird utility and it wasn't [TS]

00:19:50   simple and no one wanted to go through [TS]

00:19:52   with that so now instead of being able [TS]

00:19:54   to bring your mac into the room and [TS]

00:19:55   airplay to the projector you plug into [TS]

00:19:57   one of the 800 cables that's poking out [TS]

00:19:59   of this giant Hydra one of hgs is still [TS]

00:20:01   vga [TS]

00:20:02   who knows what they're going to do if [TS]

00:20:03   and when my work ever buys the new [TS]

00:20:05   laptops that have the USBC connectors [TS]

00:20:07   because most of the time in mac users [TS]

00:20:08   plugged in to hdmi these days yeah i [TS]

00:20:10   have to mention to like hdmi because you [TS]

00:20:13   know Vijay was analog and then we [TS]

00:20:15   finally got DVI and then HDMI which is [TS]

00:20:17   basically DVI with bonus stuff attached [TS]

00:20:20   to it I feel like it's easier to adapt [TS]

00:20:23   to the to the new digital standards [TS]

00:20:25   these days and HDMI is also pretty [TS]

00:20:26   pretty well supported now I mean I don't [TS]

00:20:28   think it's I don't think it's as big [TS]

00:20:30   like as universal as vga was at its peak [TS]

00:20:33   but I think it's getting there and and [TS]

00:20:35   it's going to be fairly trivial for [TS]

00:20:38   almost any new port standard to adapt to [TS]

00:20:41   hdmi for the foreseeable future if this [TS]

00:20:43   is going to be in such high demand every [TS]

00:20:45   new device that has video out capability [TS]

00:20:48   will have some way to transit that's a [TS]

00:20:50   HDMI for a long time so I think that [TS]

00:20:52   it's mostly a moot point these days [TS]

00:20:54   we're sponsor this week by Pingdom my [TS]

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00:21:02   today at Pingdom calm / ATP you get a [TS]

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00:21:22   websites anything with the URL for more [TS]

00:21:25   than 70 global test servers you can see [TS]

00:21:28   for instance if there's some weird dns [TS]

00:21:29   problem where like your site is offline [TS]

00:21:31   for only a certain part of the world but [TS]

00:21:33   it happened to not be where you live you [TS]

00:21:35   might not you better know about that [TS]

00:21:36   otherwise but Pingdom can tell you that [TS]

00:21:38   they can tell you so much your [TS]

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00:21:46   they can check for things like regular [TS]

00:21:47   expressions or patterns or substrate or [TS]

00:21:49   anything else and all sorts of you can [TS]

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00:21:52   and conditions and everything it's [TS]

00:21:54   incredibly powerful stuff breaks on the [TS]

00:21:56   internet all the time and I mean heck [TS]

00:21:59   this this past week there was an [TS]

00:22:01   interesting outage of Amazon s3 and that [TS]

00:22:03   caused a lot of stuff to break and [TS]

00:22:05   Pingdom had a lot of outages to report [TS]

00:22:07   and of course they did they did their [TS]

00:22:09   job very well there because they always [TS]

00:22:10   do their job very well i've been using [TS]

00:22:11   Pingdom since I think 2007 [TS]

00:22:15   it's it's been a very long time I used [TS]

00:22:17   it for the vast majority of tumblr all [TS]

00:22:19   events to paper all of overcast so far I [TS]

00:22:22   use it for my personal site our friend [TS]

00:22:24   underscore David Smith used to use it to [TS]

00:22:26   monitor the Apple WBC page for changes [TS]

00:22:29   and have it alert him every time [TS]

00:22:31   whenever the page change so we'd know [TS]

00:22:32   when tickets went on sale because you [TS]

00:22:34   don't have to actually own the URLs that [TS]

00:22:35   you're testing there's all sorts of [TS]

00:22:37   great uses for Pingdom and of course if [TS]

00:22:40   you run a server or a website or any [TS]

00:22:42   kind of web service you need to know [TS]

00:22:44   when your site goes down and you need to [TS]

00:22:46   be the first to note you shouldn't need [TS]

00:22:48   to wait around to the two later read [TS]

00:22:50   Twitter and see like you've had 50 [TS]

00:22:52   responses people on Twitter that your [TS]

00:22:54   site's been down over the last three [TS]

00:22:55   hours and you didn't even know about it [TS]

00:22:57   with pingdom you'll be the first to know [TS]

00:22:59   you can be alerted by a text message [TS]

00:23:01   push notification email and you will be [TS]

00:23:04   the first to know so you can go fix it [TS]

00:23:06   before all the people on Twitter see and [TS]

00:23:08   start bugging you about it before your [TS]

00:23:09   customers see it before you lose any [TS]

00:23:11   business check it out today go to [TS]

00:23:12   Pingdom calm / ATP for a 14-day free [TS]

00:23:15   trial and get twenty percent off your [TS]

00:23:17   first invoice with offer code ATP thanks [TS]

00:23:19   to pingdom for sponsoring our show ah [TS]

00:23:21   Eric Peterman rights in part of the USBC [TS]

00:23:27   spec is two-way power devices choose [TS]

00:23:31   what charges what based on the order of [TS]

00:23:33   plugging them in so aim at hood charge [TS]

00:23:37   the switch so this is Harry way to do it [TS]

00:23:39   it really is this is with regard to the [TS]

00:23:42   rumor or or or maybe what I guess wasn't [TS]

00:23:45   a rumor but but somebody had plugged a [TS]

00:23:47   switch into one of the new macbook pros [TS]

00:23:49   and they said oh this is weird the [TS]

00:23:51   switch is charging the macbook pro [TS]

00:23:52   rather than what you would expect which [TS]

00:23:54   is the reverse and this is what Eric's [TS]

00:23:57   talking about so i had heard separately [TS]

00:24:00   from a not reliable source that that was [TS]

00:24:02   actually a firmware issue with the [TS]

00:24:03   switch but this indicates that it's all [TS]

00:24:05   about who plugs into what when which is [TS]

00:24:07   kind of bananas the fact that it [TS]

00:24:09   wouldn't be deterministic like that it [TS]

00:24:12   would like imagine imagine like in real [TS]

00:24:15   life you know anybody using these [TS]

00:24:17   devices who isn't intricately familiar [TS]

00:24:19   with the USBC spec you know oh I [TS]

00:24:22   accidentally plug this in backwards and [TS]

00:24:24   depleted the device that I was trying to [TS]

00:24:25   charge plug your phone into your laptop [TS]

00:24:28   and it drains [TS]

00:24:28   run to climb yeah why would you design [TS]

00:24:31   spec that who knows III haven't looked [TS]

00:24:34   this obviously but i think is actually a [TS]

00:24:36   reasonable way for things to work in the [TS]

00:24:38   absence of anything else dictating and i [TS]

00:24:39   would imagine if you plug a phone into [TS]

00:24:42   an apple out you know an iphone into an [TS]

00:24:44   apple laptop they have already they [TS]

00:24:46   already have a system through some [TS]

00:24:47   resistor values some other crap to [TS]

00:24:49   ensure that it never goes in the [TS]

00:24:50   opposite direction but if you have two [TS]

00:24:52   devices that are basically from their [TS]

00:24:54   perspective but I don't know making up [TS]

00:24:56   terminology of like to host devices like [TS]

00:24:57   laptop and the switch that's as [TS]

00:25:00   reasonable way as any if they both [TS]

00:25:01   expect to be the thing charging but [TS]

00:25:02   their plugs into each other there has to [TS]

00:25:04   be some kind of negotiations a plug [TS]

00:25:05   water sounds fine but I would hope that [TS]

00:25:07   for the common case where it's like one [TS]

00:25:09   really big one and one really small one [TS]

00:25:11   like I would hope that the phone doesn't [TS]

00:25:12   have the power to charge anything I mean [TS]

00:25:15   I suppose it does it powers like audio [TS]

00:25:16   peripherals but it's not charging them [TS]

00:25:18   right now barely yeah all right daniel [TS]

00:25:22   klein rights in us bc vs lightning isn't [TS]

00:25:25   the middle part of us bc a lot more [TS]

00:25:27   breakable than the solid lightning [TS]

00:25:29   connector in he continues more important [TS]

00:25:32   than springs i'm not entirely sure what [TS]

00:25:34   he's referring to there like the little [TS]

00:25:35   springing bits this is a my concern [TS]

00:25:38   about the USBC before seeing them and [TS]

00:25:41   even when you see you can kind of you [TS]

00:25:42   know look and look into the the female [TS]

00:25:44   connector on us bc and you see the [TS]

00:25:46   little circuit board thing with the [TS]

00:25:48   contacts sticking out and in theory you [TS]

00:25:50   can stick your finger nail in there and [TS]

00:25:51   just crack that thing down your port is [TS]

00:25:53   dead I haven't don't have enough [TS]

00:25:56   real-world experience plugging and [TS]

00:25:58   unplugging USBC to say how fragile that [TS]

00:26:00   thing is and how likely it is to either [TS]

00:26:01   get stuff jammed around it or break [TS]

00:26:03   these are all question marks I would [TS]

00:26:06   imagine that it is probably sturdier [TS]

00:26:09   than you think because it's wedged up in [TS]

00:26:12   there and unless you actually stick [TS]

00:26:14   something in there to get at it it's not [TS]

00:26:16   it's not some place where it can get [TS]

00:26:17   bumped or hit or anything and when the [TS]

00:26:19   connector is around it it's very secure [TS]

00:26:21   because it's a police surrounded by the [TS]

00:26:22   thing so I'm going to give them the [TS]

00:26:24   benefit of the doubt give Apple the [TS]

00:26:25   benefit out of rubber design is [TS]

00:26:26   connector that that it is okay and what [TS]

00:26:31   this question maybe think about and some [TS]

00:26:32   other people who ask similar questions [TS]

00:26:34   about the springy bits in the contacts [TS]

00:26:35   and maybe think about my what I was [TS]

00:26:38   saying last show about how it is better [TS]

00:26:41   to have the springy bits in the cable [TS]

00:26:42   because if they fatigue didn't start [TS]

00:26:43   making bad contacts you just threw out [TS]

00:26:45   the cable and get a new cable where it's [TS]

00:26:46   the springy bits fatigue inside your [TS]

00:26:49   iPhone what can you do there's not much [TS]

00:26:50   you can do about it but that was in the [TS]

00:26:52   context of the hardware virus where the [TS]

00:26:55   the springy bits get less springy and [TS]

00:26:57   don't contact well with the contacts and [TS]

00:26:58   start arcing and make a little Bernie [TS]

00:27:00   spot and that Bernie spot doesn't [TS]

00:27:01   connect with other one it spreads from [TS]

00:27:02   things the thing seems to me that that [TS]

00:27:05   could still happen no matter where the [TS]

00:27:06   springy bits are because if it starts [TS]

00:27:08   arcing because the springy bits in your [TS]

00:27:09   cable or bad it's going to leave that [TS]

00:27:11   little scorch mark on the the stationary [TS]

00:27:14   part inside the female USBC connector [TS]

00:27:17   you won't see it you won't see the [TS]

00:27:18   little stripy thing but it'll be there [TS]

00:27:20   which means that even after you throw [TS]

00:27:21   out the cable now one of your contacts [TS]

00:27:23   inside your USBC connector inside the [TS]

00:27:25   female end is a little bit scorchy and [TS]

00:27:27   so when you stick your brand spanking [TS]

00:27:29   new cable that you bought in there it's [TS]

00:27:31   going to have poor contact with the [TS]

00:27:33   score so like that that it could still [TS]

00:27:35   happen what is what I'm saying now I [TS]

00:27:36   guess it's all depends on how resilient [TS]

00:27:38   the springy bits are maybe it's the [TS]

00:27:40   design of the springing bits this [TS]

00:27:41   different they certainly you know look [TS]

00:27:43   different if you look inside the [TS]

00:27:45   connectors and they do inside lighting [TS]

00:27:46   so I don't know again it's very [TS]

00:27:48   difficult to eyeball these things based [TS]

00:27:50   on like the few people you know and your [TS]

00:27:52   guesstimation by looking at connectors [TS]

00:27:54   only the companies that make the [TS]

00:27:56   products have actual numbers and they [TS]

00:27:58   don't seem to be sharing them but I [TS]

00:27:59   imagine if there is a large reliability [TS]

00:28:01   difference between lightning and USB see [TS]

00:28:03   we as a society will learn that together [TS]

00:28:06   over the next few years because even [TS]

00:28:08   though we won't have the data eventually [TS]

00:28:10   it'll be clear is there some sort of [TS]

00:28:11   widespread problem with this and not a [TS]

00:28:13   widespread problem with that or is there [TS]

00:28:15   problems with both of them or you know [TS]

00:28:16   like I imagined it'll be about a wash [TS]

00:28:19   but we'll say Jeff Spivak writes more [TS]

00:28:22   naked robotic macbook pros and there's a [TS]

00:28:25   link to yanko design which has a super [TS]

00:28:30   case for your macbook what the deuce is [TS]

00:28:33   going on here it's just like the macbook [TS]

00:28:36   pro this isn't a macro pro this is a [TS]

00:28:37   macbook but hey you know these these [TS]

00:28:38   laptops at apple mix have us bc and or a [TS]

00:28:42   thunderbolt three ports on them but [TS]

00:28:44   don't have any other reports that people [TS]

00:28:45   wanted no SD card slot no big honkin USB [TS]

00:28:47   a slot or whatever maybe you want more [TS]

00:28:50   battery on it and these sort of cases [TS]

00:28:52   for your laptop's that plug into the USB [TS]

00:28:54   see and or Thunderbolt three port [TS]

00:28:56   and add a bunch of other ports just like [TS]

00:28:58   one of those adapters or docks that they [TS]

00:29:00   sell it or external and maybe also add [TS]

00:29:01   the battery and so here you go Nick [TS]

00:29:03   robotic or of your macbook you want it [TS]

00:29:05   to be thicker and a little bit heavier [TS]

00:29:06   and have an SD card slot in the USB a [TS]

00:29:08   thing and another USBC pass through and [TS]

00:29:11   I might micro USB I can't even tell what [TS]

00:29:12   the hell this thing has on it anyway you [TS]

00:29:14   want a bunch more ports and you want to [TS]

00:29:15   talk like an ugly pc laptop with a bunch [TS]

00:29:17   of plastic crap get this way to sell it [TS]

00:29:20   it doesn't look good but I'm saying it's [TS]

00:29:22   like this is this is one hundred percent [TS]

00:29:24   the naked robotic or as applied to max [TS]

00:29:27   like we made it as small and as thin as [TS]

00:29:28   possible if you want something different [TS]

00:29:30   you can add it like the tech is there [TS]

00:29:33   you know like all the like all those [TS]

00:29:35   breakout docks and adapters like the [TS]

00:29:36   tech is there you could put an Ethernet [TS]

00:29:38   port in this thing right go ahead and [TS]

00:29:40   it's kind of amazing that this you add [TS]

00:29:42   this thing to it and it makes your [TS]

00:29:44   laptop like seven times thicker but it [TS]

00:29:46   really does on one side have us be a in [TS]

00:29:48   an SD card slot on the other side have [TS]

00:29:50   another USB a USBC in a micro USB or [TS]

00:29:52   wherever the hell it may be just another [TS]

00:29:53   USB see I can't tell like suddenly your [TS]

00:29:56   macbook one is macbook way more than one [TS]

00:29:59   yeah this this thing is is something [TS]

00:30:03   else I I do commend the effort of things [TS]

00:30:07   like this to make these lifetimes more [TS]

00:30:09   useful but i think they are destined to [TS]

00:30:12   have the same problem the same thing i [TS]

00:30:14   was complaining about with with battery [TS]

00:30:16   backpacks on phones that all of the like [TS]

00:30:19   casing and electronics overhead of [TS]

00:30:22   having to have like the separate [TS]

00:30:25   standalone device with its own plastic [TS]

00:30:27   on both sides and its own like metal [TS]

00:30:30   shielding and different parts and [TS]

00:30:31   charging opponents and discharging [TS]

00:30:33   components and everything else like the [TS]

00:30:34   additional bulk of having to bolt this [TS]

00:30:38   on as an external thing makes the entire [TS]

00:30:41   package end up being so bigger so much [TS]

00:30:44   bigger and heavier than if you had a [TS]

00:30:46   laptop that just had these things in the [TS]

00:30:47   first place built in that it just [TS]

00:30:50   doesn't it just seem compelling to me [TS]

00:30:51   and so the alternative in apple's [TS]

00:30:54   universe assuming apple doesn't actually [TS]

00:30:56   make a machine that has the ports that [TS]

00:30:57   you want on it like the apple does make [TS]

00:30:59   these things with a very capable port on [TS]

00:31:02   it that is capable of supporting opus [TS]

00:31:03   like the reason he's going to exist [TS]

00:31:04   because there is a capable the apple [TS]

00:31:05   turnip is a whole mess of adapters and [TS]

00:31:08   hours and we look at this we sell ways [TS]

00:31:10   and ugly as it inconvenient it makes it [TS]

00:31:11   thicker it makes it heavier is it uglier [TS]

00:31:14   and more inconvenient than a whole mess [TS]

00:31:17   of adapters or an external breakout box [TS]

00:31:20   doc I mean it really depends on the [TS]

00:31:21   environment you're using it I wouldn't [TS]

00:31:22   want to be I would be more happy [TS]

00:31:24   carrying this from conference room to [TS]

00:31:25   conference room attending a series of [TS]

00:31:28   meetings no matter how ugly it is [TS]

00:31:29   because it's self-contained and I don't [TS]

00:31:31   have to have like put down my laptop [TS]

00:31:34   then dumped on the table a handful of [TS]

00:31:36   adapters or a breakout box or this big [TS]

00:31:38   Hydra of cables like that that is worse [TS]

00:31:40   in many ways for a machine that is [TS]

00:31:41   supposed to be portable so yes it is [TS]

00:31:43   technically possible to plug in a bunch [TS]

00:31:45   of wires it kind of reminds me of those [TS]

00:31:46   old imac ads were they would you like [TS]

00:31:48   the pc with a million wires poking out [TS]

00:31:50   of the back of it and sure like the imac [TS]

00:31:51   and how clean it wasn't you didn't need [TS]

00:31:53   all this stuff just one power cable [TS]

00:31:54   right that's some of the mouse that is [TS]

00:31:55   like every macbook one that people use [TS]

00:31:58   to get anything beyond like the basics [TS]

00:32:00   done on yeah i really they're using [TS]

00:32:02   their own computer for that but even I I [TS]

00:32:04   recall seeing like if you ever see a [TS]

00:32:05   picture of a real persons like not just [TS]

00:32:08   a marketing shot but someone who bought [TS]

00:32:09   a mac pro and uses it for work bought a [TS]

00:32:11   trash can to work as a million wires [TS]

00:32:14   coming out of it and it looks for all [TS]

00:32:15   the world like those ugly pcs I'm not [TS]

00:32:17   saying this is the wrong solution but [TS]

00:32:18   it's kind of like how they always show [TS]

00:32:20   like lamps in product shots without [TS]

00:32:22   wires coming from them or like [TS]

00:32:24   appliances like there's never any wires [TS]

00:32:26   like wait how does that lamp get power [TS]

00:32:27   they erase the wires because wires are [TS]

00:32:30   ugly they don't want you to see them [TS]

00:32:31   when they're showing a picture like you [TS]

00:32:33   know here is Samsung's fancy new TV they [TS]

00:32:35   don't show the wires coming out of it [TS]

00:32:36   because that's ugly you know even when [TS]

00:32:38   they show the back of it they don't show [TS]

00:32:39   the wires they want to show you all the [TS]

00:32:40   ports wires are ugly and inconvenient [TS]

00:32:43   and make your products look worse and [TS]

00:32:45   are generally annoying to wrangle and so [TS]

00:32:47   as ugly as this weird little sleeve [TS]

00:32:48   thing is i hope the signal is sending to [TS]

00:32:50   Apple is hey Apple if you made a laptop [TS]

00:32:53   that made a different set of compromises [TS]

00:32:56   you may be able to you know I feel like [TS]

00:32:59   it should be apples job to make sure [TS]

00:33:00   that no one ever wants to buy this thing [TS]

00:33:01   and maybe they don't want to buy just [TS]

00:33:02   because it's ugly but say they had [TS]

00:33:04   Justin SD card slot as we've discussed [TS]

00:33:07   on the macbook pro 13-inch would that [TS]

00:33:09   satisfy everybody know because it [TS]

00:33:11   doesn't have micro you know USB and and [TS]

00:33:13   the USB a ports or whatever but it would [TS]

00:33:16   satisfy slightly more people and what [TS]

00:33:19   would the cost be so it's very difficult [TS]

00:33:20   knowing what what the right compromise [TS]

00:33:22   is for the complement of ports I do like [TS]

00:33:25   the idea that things like this are [TS]

00:33:26   possible I don't like the idea that [TS]

00:33:27   people would be driven to buy them [TS]

00:33:29   because they're you know they're going [TS]

00:33:31   to say they're they're not of Apple [TS]

00:33:32   quality for the most part yeah i mean [TS]

00:33:35   this like you know what you said like if [TS]

00:33:37   Apple were to allow us to make a [TS]

00:33:39   different set of compromises if you had [TS]

00:33:42   to boil down all of my complaints about [TS]

00:33:44   Apple's hardware lineup from the last [TS]

00:33:46   five years or so that's it like I wish [TS]

00:33:49   Apple would allow me the choice of [TS]

00:33:51   different compromises because for the [TS]

00:33:54   most part they tend to enforce the same [TS]

00:33:58   compromises on their entire product line [TS]

00:34:01   on every member of the family so for [TS]

00:34:03   instance like you know all the laptops [TS]

00:34:05   are now hidden lights which sacrifice [TS]

00:34:07   ports and now keyboard usability and [TS]

00:34:10   trackpad usability like they set for the [TS]

00:34:12   things in the name of thinness and for a [TS]

00:34:14   lot of people that's great it's great to [TS]

00:34:16   have that as an option in the lineup but [TS]

00:34:18   I just wish it wasn't now the only [TS]

00:34:19   option in the lineup and I think [TS]

00:34:21   products like this just show that there [TS]

00:34:24   is still substantial demand even though [TS]

00:34:27   you know any any given one of these [TS]

00:34:30   types of things is not going to sell [TS]

00:34:32   very well I don't think but I think it [TS]

00:34:34   says something that this is not the [TS]

00:34:36   first thing we've seen like this and [TS]

00:34:37   there's also the whole you know beyond [TS]

00:34:40   just like the whole like you know new [TS]

00:34:42   bottom case thing like this that you [TS]

00:34:44   kind of sit the laptop in there's also [TS]

00:34:46   the entire ecosystem of all these [TS]

00:34:47   different USBC hubs that like almost [TS]

00:34:49   every macbook one owner has one of these [TS]

00:34:52   hubs at least one if not like seven from [TS]

00:34:54   different Kickstarter's and everything [TS]

00:34:55   like this really says I think Apple I [TS]

00:34:58   wish Apple would would look at these [TS]

00:35:00   results and and realize like it would be [TS]

00:35:05   better it would be better for a lot of [TS]

00:35:07   customers to just have different choices [TS]

00:35:10   not just to be able to pick your given [TS]

00:35:13   screen size of the same compromised [TS]

00:35:16   ultra thin laptop we are sponsored this [TS]

00:35:19   week by away go to away travel calm / [TS]

00:35:22   ATP for twenty dollars off your order [TS]

00:35:24   use promo code ATP during checkout away [TS]

00:35:27   makes basically like modern-day nicely [TS]

00:35:31   thoughtfully designed luggage at great [TS]

00:35:33   value prices so these are ways to [TS]

00:35:36   are made with premium German [TS]

00:35:37   polycarbonate which is unrivaled and [TS]

00:35:39   strengthened impact resistance and very [TS]

00:35:41   lightweight the interior is incredibly [TS]

00:35:43   thoughtfully designed if you use a [TS]

00:35:45   patent-pending compression systems you [TS]

00:35:47   could fill a lot in there they of course [TS]

00:35:49   have for full spinning wheels for a [TS]

00:35:51   smooth ride if you never you never used [TS]

00:35:53   force for Bill two cases it's a pretty [TS]

00:35:54   big of greater for to build two cases [TS]

00:35:56   they've of course a TSA approved [TS]

00:35:57   combination locked onto the top they [TS]

00:35:59   also have a couple interesting things [TS]

00:36:00   like a removable washable laundry bag so [TS]

00:36:03   when you're out traveling you put all [TS]

00:36:05   your dirty clothes in this removable [TS]

00:36:07   washable laundry bag that's built into [TS]

00:36:09   the suitcase so you always have with you [TS]

00:36:10   and it keeps a separate from your finger [TS]

00:36:12   from your other clothes and it's easy to [TS]

00:36:13   take out later and wash and they also in [TS]

00:36:15   their carry-on model this is incredibly [TS]

00:36:17   thoughtful you might you might have [TS]

00:36:18   heard about this elsewhere in their [TS]

00:36:19   carry-on model they have a built-in USB [TS]

00:36:21   charging battery so you can plug in cell [TS]

00:36:25   phones tablets e-readers and anything [TS]

00:36:28   else that's USB powered you can plug it [TS]

00:36:30   in and charge it with your carry-on [TS]

00:36:32   suitcase from away a single charge of [TS]

00:36:34   the OA carry-ons internal battery can [TS]

00:36:36   charge your iPhone 5 times and if [TS]

00:36:39   anything ever breaks on these suitcases [TS]

00:36:42   away will fix or replace it for you for [TS]

00:36:45   life they have a lifetime warranty and [TS]

00:36:48   of course because you're buying a [TS]

00:36:50   suitcase on the internet which sounds [TS]

00:36:51   kind of weird they have you covered [TS]

00:36:52   there too with a hundred day trial so [TS]

00:36:55   here's the hit of this works you can buy [TS]

00:36:56   it for a hundred days you can live with [TS]

00:36:58   it you can even travel with it so you [TS]

00:37:01   can actually buy it travel with it for [TS]

00:37:03   three months and then decide after that [TS]

00:37:05   whether you want to keep it or not if at [TS]

00:37:07   any point you decided to not for you you [TS]

00:37:09   can return it for a full refund with no [TS]

00:37:11   questions asked so check it out today [TS]

00:37:14   these are really thoughtfully designed [TS]

00:37:16   well-made suitcases with a lifetime [TS]

00:37:19   warranty and a hundred day trial so [TS]

00:37:21   there's really nothing to lose here [TS]

00:37:22   check it out at away travel com / ATP [TS]

00:37:27   and use code ATP during checkout to get [TS]

00:37:30   twenty dollars off your order once again [TS]

00:37:32   that's a way travel calm / ATP and promo [TS]

00:37:35   code ATP for twenty bucks off your first [TS]

00:37:37   order thank you very much to a way for [TS]

00:37:39   sponsoring our show [TS]

00:37:42   alright so we're going to start tonight [TS]

00:37:45   with four starting tonight sort of with [TS]

00:37:51   a couple maybe all three of us ipad [TS]

00:37:54   grumps talking about windows or [TS]

00:37:56   windowing i guess i should say on iOS [TS]

00:37:58   and Stephen Trent Smith who is uh [TS]

00:38:03   probably the best iOS hacker and I don't [TS]

00:38:08   know I hate using that term on [TS]

00:38:10   ironically but I don't know what else to [TS]

00:38:12   call him I don't think he would take [TS]

00:38:13   offense yeah I don't mean it in a [TS]

00:38:15   disparaging way anyways he has been [TS]

00:38:19   putting together over the last week or [TS]

00:38:21   so basically a windowing system for iOS [TS]

00:38:24   I guess specifically for ipad and it is [TS]

00:38:28   absolutely bananas how impressive it [TS]

00:38:31   looks and how fluid he's gotten it to [TS]

00:38:33   look and there are several tweets about [TS]

00:38:36   well there's many tweets about it we'll [TS]

00:38:38   put one or two in the show notes but [TS]

00:38:40   what's of interest to us I guess is he [TS]

00:38:45   tweeted phone call from app review side [TS]

00:38:48   by side windows fine resizable windows [TS]

00:38:51   fine overlapping windows scream emoji [TS]

00:38:55   apparently app review does not like the [TS]

00:38:59   idea of having two windows or views on [TS]

00:39:04   top of each other and this relates to [TS]

00:39:07   one of my favorite ipad apps not [TS]

00:39:11   necessarily in terms of how much I've [TS]

00:39:12   used it but just I think it's an [TS]

00:39:14   unbelievably clever idea which is panics [TS]

00:39:17   status board app which if you're not [TS]

00:39:19   familiar is basically you can arrange a [TS]

00:39:22   series of widgets on the iPad screen and [TS]

00:39:25   use your iPad a status board or if you [TS]

00:39:27   want to you could plug it into a TV and [TS]

00:39:29   use a whole TV as a status board powered [TS]

00:39:32   by an iPad and it's very similar to this [TS]

00:39:34   and so cable sasser of panax says stone [TS]

00:39:36   our blog CMS as a never posted goodbye [TS]

00:39:39   status board post from the time Apple [TS]

00:39:41   said widgets are okay but we can't have [TS]

00:39:44   more than one widget and this post [TS]

00:39:47   included an illustration that may have [TS]

00:39:49   helped change their minds and it's an [TS]

00:39:50   illustration of this humongous TV with [TS]

00:39:53   as little teeny tiny widget on it trying [TS]

00:39:55   make the point of you know this is kind [TS]

00:39:57   of ridiculous so I know this there's [TS]

00:40:01   kind of a lot to unpack here but before [TS]

00:40:04   anything else I do I am so unbelievably [TS]

00:40:06   stunned and impressed by what Stephen [TS]

00:40:08   Trump Smith is done with this iPad my I [TS]

00:40:12   was gonna call it a mock-up but I mean [TS]

00:40:13   it's it's working it's real it's a tech [TS]

00:40:15   demo yeah that's a much better term for [TS]

00:40:17   it it's so freaking cool he basically [TS]

00:40:20   made finder yeah like a really simple [TS]

00:40:22   version of finder with with like Finder [TS]

00:40:25   windows and everything be able to browse [TS]

00:40:26   files and preview the van everything [TS]

00:40:28   it's pretty impressive it's kinda like [TS]

00:40:30   the Mac os10 finder anyway not the real [TS]

00:40:32   fun yeah and and it's at the point of it [TS]

00:40:35   is not to be like a useful application [TS]

00:40:36   the point of it is I I think to to show [TS]

00:40:39   off like here's a really easy obvious [TS]

00:40:42   way that you could do when doing on on [TS]

00:40:44   iPads and let's see how how it actually [TS]

00:40:46   behaves and works like is it useful is [TS]

00:40:49   it easy to do is it confusing or does it [TS]

00:40:51   just kind of work and so far I think it [TS]

00:40:54   just kind of works you left off the last [TS]

00:40:57   few tweets here which I think are [TS]

00:40:58   important both both Steven and cables [TS]

00:41:01   things so Steve continues after his [TS]

00:41:02   scared face emoji or screaming face i [TS]

00:41:04   had another Chris sorry Casey I didn't [TS]

00:41:06   know the correct name of that emoji and [TS]

00:41:07   chrome couldn't handle it so I can [TS]

00:41:09   actually taste it if only we had a [TS]

00:41:10   resource on this show somebody who was [TS]

00:41:12   really an emoji expert uh he handled it [TS]

00:41:15   and he read right over scared face and [TS]

00:41:17   he replaced it with the correct which of [TS]

00:41:18   I assume was the correct one cuz will [TS]

00:41:20   this was deferred to him he's fluent in [TS]

00:41:21   emoji right hello here so this is about [TS]

00:41:24   a perv you saying the side by side [TS]

00:41:26   window you know overlapping windows is [TS]

00:41:27   no good right so saying effectively this [TS]

00:41:30   is merely an informal heads up that if [TS]

00:41:32   it were to be submitted to the app store [TS]

00:41:33   with overlapping windows would be [TS]

00:41:35   rejected remember he's not a submitting [TS]

00:41:36   an application of the app store he's [TS]

00:41:37   just doing like tech demos on Twitter [TS]

00:41:39   and he gets a phone call from a ver you [TS]

00:41:41   saying by the way if you were to submit [TS]

00:41:44   that no all right and so the final bit [TS]

00:41:46   here is this is why the ipad can't have [TS]

00:41:48   nice things you're stuck waiting for [TS]

00:41:50   Apple to innovate which is exactly the [TS]

00:41:53   point of all just like who knows this is [TS]

00:41:55   a good idea maybe this is a terrible [TS]

00:41:56   idea but if Apple is going to not just [TS]

00:41:59   enforce a set of guidelines in terms of [TS]

00:42:01   quality and viruses and advertising and [TS]

00:42:04   you know adult content and all sorts of [TS]

00:42:06   other things that the app store does but [TS]

00:42:07   to at the lab at this [TS]

00:42:09   level to say you know you do whatever [TS]

00:42:12   you want if you're making a game and you [TS]

00:42:14   like it like you make a bunch of gooeys [TS]

00:42:16   but in the in-between place where you [TS]

00:42:18   try to make your own GUI we're going to [TS]

00:42:20   say no to that and it's like Apple you [TS]

00:42:23   don't look like it's a third-party [TS]

00:42:24   application maybe it's a terrible idea [TS]

00:42:26   when everyone hated maybe it's a great [TS]

00:42:28   idea and you'll end up stealing it like [TS]

00:42:29   pull to refresh you have to allow [TS]

00:42:31   application developers to do things like [TS]

00:42:33   this with the devices that you're making [TS]

00:42:36   like this is not a ridiculous notion [TS]

00:42:39   right and and maybe if it was more [TS]

00:42:41   ridiculous would be allowed because [TS]

00:42:42   again games gonna like look at my whole [TS]

00:42:44   screen is a big OpenGL view I can do [TS]

00:42:45   whatever the hell you want an apple is [TS]

00:42:46   not going to be like Oh your menu system [TS]

00:42:48   in this racing game looks a little bit [TS]

00:42:50   weird like they don't care it's fine but [TS]

00:42:52   this looks too much like a regular UI [TS]

00:42:54   and this is not like the image that [TS]

00:42:55   Apple wants for their thing and I feel [TS]

00:42:58   like this starts to cross a line of your [TS]

00:43:00   not ensuring quality in the app store [TS]

00:43:02   you are constraining the you know you're [TS]

00:43:05   constraining innovation like legitimate [TS]

00:43:06   innovation not he's not trolling with [TS]

00:43:08   this he's trying out a interface idea an [TS]

00:43:11   interface idea that is just as valid is [TS]

00:43:13   half the other people's terrible uses of [TS]

00:43:14   UI kit then end up being terrible [TS]

00:43:16   interfaces maybe it'll be terrible to [TS]

00:43:17   who knows but why is this not allowed [TS]

00:43:20   but so many other like sketching [TS]

00:43:21   applications that have like drag off [TS]

00:43:23   palette so you can float it's like well [TS]

00:43:24   that's okay because the background is [TS]

00:43:26   your painting or your sketch that you're [TS]

00:43:28   doing and that's not a window and then [TS]

00:43:29   the things I floating on top of it our [TS]

00:43:31   windows but they can't overlap with each [TS]

00:43:32   other it's it's ridiculous like and so [TS]

00:43:35   we are forced to wait for Apple to [TS]

00:43:37   slowly but you know perhaps surely [TS]

00:43:41   perhaps not decide what it's going to do [TS]

00:43:43   with this whole window okay pic picture [TS]

00:43:44   and picture is fine and Apple do that [TS]

00:43:45   and make an official API for it can we [TS]

00:43:47   have any other floating windows up all [TS]

00:43:48   the windows hmm maybe one or two and [TS]

00:43:52   apps allow but don't try to solve the [TS]

00:43:54   whole problem in the general purpose way [TS]

00:43:55   because only apples allowed to do that [TS]

00:43:58   so you're so it the users of the ipad [TS]

00:44:00   the users of iOS are stuck waiting for [TS]

00:44:02   Apple to figure out what to do it is [TS]

00:44:04   impossible for third parties to innovate [TS]

00:44:06   on iOS devices because Apple simply [TS]

00:44:09   won't let them and that is terrible [TS]

00:44:10   because most of the awesome innovations [TS]

00:44:12   on the mac and many of them on iOS came [TS]

00:44:14   from third-party developers that did [TS]

00:44:16   something it became popular Apple saw [TS]

00:44:18   and said well that's a good idea we [TS]

00:44:20   should build that into the US or [TS]

00:44:21   incorporate a similar mark [TS]

00:44:23   or you know by super clock about clock [TS]

00:44:25   in the menu bar I mean come on come on [TS]

00:44:27   Apple this is super disappointing [TS]

00:44:28   especially there / actively dickish [TS]

00:44:30   about it call him saying yeah you better [TS]

00:44:33   not submit that to the outdoors will [TS]

00:44:35   reject it just so you know hold on [TS]

00:44:36   though was that I don't think that was [TS]

00:44:38   out of the blue and I might have this [TS]

00:44:40   wrong but my interpretation which may be [TS]

00:44:42   my own fabrication was that he had [TS]

00:44:44   submitted it for like test flight or [TS]

00:44:47   something and so as part of that he got [TS]

00:44:50   like a little mini review and it was [TS]

00:44:52   then that it was brought to apples [TS]

00:44:53   attention and then that they called him [TS]

00:44:55   and were like oh no that's not going to [TS]

00:44:57   work but it either way like it but [TS]

00:44:59   whether even if you officially submitted [TS]

00:45:01   the bottom line is that they are they're [TS]

00:45:02   saying you are not allowed to innovate [TS]

00:45:04   in this way which i think is ridiculous [TS]

00:45:06   let the app die on its own if it's a [TS]

00:45:07   terrible idea right it's not it you know [TS]

00:45:10   it's not malware well so there's there's [TS]

00:45:13   been this rule i just checked it's still [TS]

00:45:14   there there's been this rule this app [TS]

00:45:16   review rule since i think the first [TS]

00:45:19   publication of a preview rules back [TS]

00:45:21   whenever that was like 2009-2010 and [TS]

00:45:23   it's rule number 258 apps that create [TS]

00:45:27   alternate desktop or home screen [TS]

00:45:29   environments where simulate multi app [TS]

00:45:31   widget experiences will be rejected I [TS]

00:45:33   know like Launch Center pro had that [TS]

00:45:35   problem a while back to I think that's [TS]

00:45:37   girl rule as bogus to you know I think I [TS]

00:45:39   do but but I think it's worth it's worth [TS]

00:45:41   questioning why that rule is there and [TS]

00:45:44   it might just be some like you know [TS]

00:45:46   crazy Steve Jobs control freak old over [TS]

00:45:49   but there also might be good reasons for [TS]

00:45:51   so it might be for instance like they [TS]

00:45:53   don't want like another app to basically [TS]

00:45:56   like start like its own entire app [TS]

00:45:58   ecosystem within it self like although [TS]

00:46:01   it's you can kind of argue that's kind [TS]

00:46:02   of what like whatsapp do does and [TS]

00:46:04   everything but and snapchat anyway [TS]

00:46:06   Facebook geez anyway but I think there's [TS]

00:46:12   probably like this rule is probably not [TS]

00:46:14   helping innovation overall it is this is [TS]

00:46:17   probably holding things back now that [TS]

00:46:18   being said you know support for any kind [TS]

00:46:22   of like windowing system like this to [TS]

00:46:25   get anywhere the way to do it in iOS is [TS]

00:46:27   for Apple to do it like it's it's never [TS]

00:46:29   get anywhere you know in the market like [TS]

00:46:32   this well I disagree if it was actually [TS]

00:46:34   a good idea and it was implemented in [TS]

00:46:36   a popular or soon to be popular widely [TS]

00:46:38   used creative application like for [TS]

00:46:40   example of Adobe Illustrator came and it [TS]

00:46:41   had tear-off pouts that you could [TS]

00:46:42   overlap and rearrange just like the [TS]

00:46:44   desktop one right they'll be disallowed [TS]

00:46:46   under the under these stupid overlapping [TS]

00:46:48   real things you can overlap to pouts [TS]

00:46:49   with each other but if it was popular on [TS]

00:46:52   that application and people liked it on [TS]

00:46:54   their big ipad pro every competitor [TS]

00:46:57   application would be scrambling to [TS]

00:47:00   implement that any new competitor in the [TS]

00:47:01   market would say if i want to make a [TS]

00:47:03   professional vector drawing application [TS]

00:47:04   on the 12 inch ipad pro i need to have [TS]

00:47:07   these floating overlapping palettes [TS]

00:47:09   because the market leader has them and [TS]

00:47:10   everybody loves them and if i don't have [TS]

00:47:12   them you know what i mean like let the [TS]

00:47:13   idea live and die on its own i agree [TS]

00:47:16   that if you're going to say okay well [TS]

00:47:17   individual applications good window only [TS]

00:47:19   Apple can do that period and that's fine [TS]

00:47:21   but just to see bearing out the idea of [TS]

00:47:23   like is it is it ridiculous to have [TS]

00:47:24   people poking their fingers at window [TS]

00:47:26   which is this is a dumb idea does it not [TS]

00:47:27   work in a touch interface like the only [TS]

00:47:30   way you will know is by trying you can [TS]

00:47:32   think about you do the mental exercise [TS]

00:47:33   and be like oh I don't want to drag [TS]

00:47:34   around a window with a title bar how [TS]

00:47:36   would I arrange them how does it work [TS]

00:47:37   you have to try like I feel like it's [TS]

00:47:39   this is the role of third-party [TS]

00:47:41   developers if someone wants to muck with [TS]

00:47:42   that and see if it's useful I think you [TS]

00:47:44   can get a result that says either this [TS]

00:47:47   is useful and maybe would be even more [TS]

00:47:49   useful if applied broadly by Apple but [TS]

00:47:51   even just within the confines of an [TS]

00:47:52   application just like the floating [TS]

00:47:53   palettes that are in a lot of [TS]

00:47:54   applications now where there's one [TS]

00:47:56   floating thing that you can tear off and [TS]

00:47:57   move around that I think it's proof is [TS]

00:47:59   proving its own utility because you [TS]

00:48:01   don't know where it has to be and if [TS]

00:48:02   it's always stuck to the side it's kind [TS]

00:48:03   of difficult let the person move it [TS]

00:48:04   around so it's out of their way when [TS]

00:48:06   they're drawing but it lets them sort of [TS]

00:48:07   configure their tool set and you know [TS]

00:48:09   push it off to the side where they want [TS]

00:48:10   it like I think that is an idea that is [TS]

00:48:12   showing its value merely one confined to [TS]

00:48:15   third-party applications and this is [TS]

00:48:17   just taking to the next step and maybe [TS]

00:48:18   it's a step too far and it's a terrible [TS]

00:48:20   idea but Apple you just got to let [TS]

00:48:21   people try it have you seen a panel kit [TS]

00:48:24   which is apparently an open source [TS]

00:48:27   framework to do these kind of like snap [TS]

00:48:29   to the side and like sticky popover [TS]

00:48:32   panels sort of things there's a really [TS]

00:48:34   good animated gif that's on the readme [TS]

00:48:38   for this thing and we'll put a link in [TS]

00:48:39   the show notes but it's not exactly [TS]

00:48:42   apples to apples what Steve Robin Smith [TS]

00:48:45   was doing but it's very much of a [TS]

00:48:47   similar spirit and it looks really like [TS]

00:48:49   I haven't looked [TS]

00:48:50   but just the demonstration looks really [TS]

00:48:52   good yeah I mean I I think that the the [TS]

00:48:55   more productive conversation to have on [TS]

00:48:57   on this kind of thing is not like how we [TS]

00:48:59   can get Apple to let it through wrap [TS]

00:49:00   review because let's face it they won't [TS]

00:49:02   or if they suddenly have a change of [TS]

00:49:04   heart on an ancient rule like this it [TS]

00:49:07   won't be because of us but I think it's [TS]

00:49:09   worth all these things panel kit and [TS]

00:49:12   Steve Tran Smith uh you know his his [TS]

00:49:14   thing whatever it doesn't have an [TS]

00:49:16   official name don't look so uh you know [TS]

00:49:19   I i think it's it's worth talking about [TS]

00:49:21   and I think this is probably why he made [TS]

00:49:23   it it's worth talking about like does [TS]

00:49:25   this work on iOS and do you think [TS]

00:49:27   there's a future of windowed apps in [TS]

00:49:31   some form like this on on iPads I don't [TS]

00:49:35   know so yeah on that topic like cuz I I [TS]

00:49:39   brought this up several shows back when [TS]

00:49:40   what was it we were talking about that [TS]

00:49:41   had the floating thing is when we [TS]

00:49:44   originally talked about picture and [TS]

00:49:45   picture and there was some application [TS]

00:49:46   that also had a floating hang on top of [TS]

00:49:49   it oh I don't know you got all the [TS]

00:49:50   references yeah it was a thing that we [TS]

00:49:54   took come on chat room mark will cut [TS]

00:49:55   this out as we discover it what was a [TS]

00:49:58   floating iPad keyboard si si oh that [TS]

00:50:04   thing okay you're right yeah it was a [TS]

00:50:06   floating keyboard that i'm pretty sure [TS]

00:50:08   Steve Tretton Smith also found yes [TS]

00:50:10   secret a hidden API private api for to [TS]

00:50:13   put a keyboard there wasn't just the [TS]

00:50:15   bottom of your screen it's lit up from [TS]

00:50:16   the bottom but rather was a floating [TS]

00:50:17   keyboard that was much smaller that you [TS]

00:50:19   could move wherever you want it on the [TS]

00:50:20   screen and that's that made me say this [TS]

00:50:22   is kind of like a window and we have [TS]

00:50:24   another example of that which is [TS]

00:50:25   picture-in-picture there's another kind [TS]

00:50:26   of window basically a little square [TS]

00:50:27   that's on the screen that you can move [TS]

00:50:29   wherever you want it more or less within [TS]

00:50:31   constraints blah blah blah blah blah [TS]

00:50:32   which is different than the traditional [TS]

00:50:34   iOS experience which is a panel comes in [TS]

00:50:36   from aside or goes out from whatever but [TS]

00:50:37   you can't move it around right and that [TS]

00:50:39   that was me initiating a larger [TS]

00:50:41   discussion about windows with a [TS]

00:50:43   lowercase W on iOS spawned by this you [TS]

00:50:47   know hidden keyboard type thing and we [TS]

00:50:49   also talked about some existing iOS [TS]

00:50:51   applications like drawing applications [TS]

00:50:52   that house will have floating palettes [TS]

00:50:54   usually only one of them and it floats [TS]

00:50:55   over the background which is your [TS]

00:50:56   drawing but that is the thing a lot of [TS]

00:50:58   people are trying and what I was trying [TS]

00:51:01   to pitch them was that [TS]

00:51:03   as if you want to keep taking the iPad [TS]

00:51:05   even more and more pro in addition to [TS]

00:51:08   making the screen bigger and especially [TS]

00:51:09   when you do make the screen bigger you [TS]

00:51:10   want to make better use of that screen [TS]

00:51:12   and one proven way to let people make [TS]

00:51:15   use of a larger screen is to give them [TS]

00:51:17   different regions of it to do things [TS]

00:51:19   more than just splitting it up into [TS]

00:51:20   halves or thirds or whatever but even [TS]

00:51:22   within an application to be able to move [TS]

00:51:23   things around to arrange things the way [TS]

00:51:24   they want them now the thing I them add [TS]

00:51:26   to this conversation here is based on [TS]

00:51:30   things that have been discussed on other [TS]

00:51:33   podcasts starring my curly but also on [TS]

00:51:37   cortex that's also him and cg b great [TS]

00:51:39   talking about their multi ipad type [TS]

00:51:41   things and all for all the people out [TS]

00:51:42   there whose it's multipad soon as I come [TS]

00:51:44   on yes right now or or phones and iPads [TS]

00:51:47   which is just as common we got the ipad [TS]

00:51:49   but your phone next to it or whatever [TS]

00:51:50   very often this is presented as a way to [TS]

00:51:55   basically to multitask like to say my [TS]

00:51:59   smaller ipad over here has this thing on [TS]

00:52:00   my bigger ipad has this my phone has [TS]

00:52:02   this on my phone i have messages [TS]

00:52:03   available a little ipad i have like [TS]

00:52:06   slack and i'm a big ipad have the thing [TS]

00:52:07   that I'm doing right cg b great often [TS]

00:52:10   refers to it the same way that people [TS]

00:52:11   have multiple pieces of paper around [TS]

00:52:12   their desk at the same time you have [TS]

00:52:14   this file tape over here then the main [TS]

00:52:15   thing you're working on your referring [TS]

00:52:16   to your notebook for notes and you have [TS]

00:52:17   a book open over here were like having [TS]

00:52:19   multiple desks here then I my left hand [TS]

00:52:23   desk of my right-hand desk each ant has [TS]

00:52:24   its own death so it is that is life [TS]

00:52:26   everything if you if you were writing a [TS]

00:52:27   paper referring to another thing and had [TS]

00:52:29   a book open right for her into your [TS]

00:52:31   notes and had a reference book open [TS]

00:52:33   right you would do that um now every [TS]

00:52:35   time I hear them discuss us and I'm not [TS]

00:52:37   caught up on Carter cortex to forgive me [TS]

00:52:38   if this comes up sometime in 2015 but [TS]

00:52:40   every time i hear is discussed in the [TS]

00:52:42   distant past where I'm living in in [TS]

00:52:43   cortex right now I keep waiting for one [TS]

00:52:46   of these two knuckleheads to realize [TS]

00:52:48   that what they're talking about it's [TS]

00:52:50   called windows why didn't maybe windows [TS]

00:52:53   on personal computers it was like a [TS]

00:52:55   desktop like a literal like not a [TS]

00:52:57   literal desktop but the other meaning of [TS]

00:52:58   layer which is figurative desktop [TS]

00:53:00   metaphorical best time right like at the [TS]

00:53:03   top of your desk like it's not even a [TS]

00:53:05   distant is not even distant like there [TS]

00:53:07   was talk about that and then on that [TS]

00:53:09   desk would be different documents each [TS]

00:53:12   of which will be represented by a window [TS]

00:53:14   that you could move around the only [TS]

00:53:15   difference is [TS]

00:53:16   that it was all within one piece of [TS]

00:53:18   glass so you would take the windows / [TS]

00:53:20   documents and arrange them how you [TS]

00:53:22   wanted with the thing you're writing in [TS]

00:53:24   the middle and the notes you're [TS]

00:53:25   referring to on the left and open a [TS]

00:53:26   reference book on the right only middle [TS]

00:53:28   left and right would all be on the [TS]

00:53:29   screen and so it's maddening to hear [TS]

00:53:32   people talk about all I have my big iPad [TS]

00:53:33   on my little half of your those are just [TS]

00:53:35   windows but their physical now and it's [TS]

00:53:37   an in some respects it's better to have [TS]

00:53:38   physical windows like it is more there [TS]

00:53:40   are advantages to physical windows but [TS]

00:53:41   imagine if your whole desk was a [TS]

00:53:43   freaking giant Retina screen and you [TS]

00:53:45   could arrange these windows will call [TS]

00:53:47   them and you would have your little [TS]

00:53:48   phone and you're right there just [TS]

00:53:50   differently sized with those guys you [TS]

00:53:51   just read my nose in the meat space [TS]

00:53:54   they're just nice windows and like it's [TS]

00:53:57   so painful to me to sleep in and I know [TS]

00:53:59   they'll say like I don't want that I [TS]

00:54:00   don't want Windows window what you know [TS]

00:54:02   window arrangement sucks arranging my [TS]

00:54:04   two iPads on my desk is great and there [TS]

00:54:07   is i'm not going to said there is [TS]

00:54:08   something to that because dealing with [TS]

00:54:11   physical devices is better than dealing [TS]

00:54:12   with the nose there are compromises to [TS]

00:54:14   having them all be virtual on a 2d [TS]

00:54:16   device but there are also advantages [TS]

00:54:18   really really big advantages and people [TS]

00:54:19   with long experience with using very [TS]

00:54:22   large screens with lots of windows on [TS]

00:54:23   them hello that's me can tell you that [TS]

00:54:26   they're all there are also advantages to [TS]

00:54:28   that approach and so I'm not saying one [TS]

00:54:30   precludes the other and you have to stop [TS]

00:54:31   the other one I'm just saying they are [TS]

00:54:33   siblings they are they are solving the [TS]

00:54:35   same problem in almost exactly the same [TS]

00:54:37   way with only slightly different [TS]

00:54:39   compromises and if they're going to say [TS]

00:54:40   that that the multi-device thing is the [TS]

00:54:42   way they prefer versus the other one [TS]

00:54:44   that's fine but to never mention the [TS]

00:54:45   element never realized that what they're [TS]

00:54:46   essentially doing is exactly the same as [TS]

00:54:48   having a really big screen with multiple [TS]

00:54:50   windows and that there are advantages to [TS]

00:54:52   having a really big screaming multiple [TS]

00:54:53   windows in that virtual things are [TS]

00:54:56   easier to deal with and manipulate than [TS]

00:54:57   real things like you can't switch spaces [TS]

00:55:00   that you can't swipe your four fingers [TS]

00:55:01   to the left and suddenly a new desk [TS]

00:55:03   slides in with a new set of iowa devices [TS]

00:55:05   on it like its paces right okay minimize [TS]

00:55:08   or window shade or or snap them to edges [TS]

00:55:11   or resize them because you can't make [TS]

00:55:12   your ipad mini into a different [TS]

00:55:14   different orientation or a different [TS]

00:55:15   size like there there are trade-offs to [TS]

00:55:17   be sure and i'm not saying one is [TS]

00:55:19   dominant over the other but as a strong [TS]

00:55:21   strong proponent of the virtual pieces [TS]

00:55:24   of paper as you know as a better [TS]

00:55:26   approach for me personally than the [TS]

00:55:28   physical pieces of paper or the [TS]

00:55:30   virtual screens AK windows instead of [TS]

00:55:32   the physical screens AK iOS devices I [TS]

00:55:34   think this has to be in the mix and [TS]

00:55:37   that's why when I say see Steve Trenton [TS]

00:55:38   smiths like let's make some windows on [TS]

00:55:41   iOS devices I say yes yes finally [TS]

00:55:44   because if Apple ever does make a 27 [TS]

00:55:46   inch iPad an approach that I think would [TS]

00:55:49   appeal to a lot of people is to be able [TS]

00:55:51   to have different overlapping resizable [TS]

00:55:54   things to it so that you're not it was [TS]

00:55:56   who wants to split a 27-inch screen into [TS]

00:55:58   thirds or halves or quarters or like I [TS]

00:56:01   know everyone loves tiling window [TS]

00:56:02   managers on Linux or whatever there's a [TS]

00:56:04   reason they have not taken the world by [TS]

00:56:05   storm right not that overlapping windows [TS]

00:56:07   is it greatest either they have [TS]

00:56:08   anti-patterns too and people do like to [TS]

00:56:10   zoom everything full screen but I feel [TS]

00:56:12   like this is an avenue that has to be [TS]

00:56:13   pursued it may not be the ultimate [TS]

00:56:15   answer and it may be some hybrid of [TS]

00:56:17   panels and staffing actually is that the [TS]

00:56:19   best compromise for most people but you [TS]

00:56:21   have to pursue it because it has proven [TS]

00:56:22   utility we all sit in front of Max all [TS]

00:56:24   day and somehow somehow we managed to [TS]

00:56:26   get work done in this chaos of [TS]

00:56:29   overlapping windows where we can never [TS]

00:56:30   tell what the hell's going on and we're [TS]

00:56:32   the gender like somehow we do it right [TS]

00:56:35   so I I desperately want to see this [TS]

00:56:38   Avenue per shirt but pursuit in every [TS]

00:56:39   every way by third party application [TS]

00:56:42   developers by Apple experimenting and [TS]

00:56:44   yes by Apple doing things in the OS and [TS]

00:56:45   releasing larger iOS devices and for all [TS]

00:56:48   you multi iOS device users now you're [TS]

00:56:52   butchering I kind of say more power to [TS]

00:56:53   you because you are kind of like the [TS]

00:56:55   steampunk of multiple windows because [TS]

00:56:58   you like there's basically there's steam [TS]

00:57:00   powered their physical manifestations of [TS]

00:57:03   windows and the ugly and dirty and grimy [TS]

00:57:05   Anna made of brass but you like him so [TS]

00:57:07   go for it add some beard oil Wow John I [TS]

00:57:14   love you that was incredible of my word [TS]

00:57:16   I feel like this episode's done we're [TS]

00:57:18   done goodnight everybody that's not I [TS]

00:57:20   mean it's over dude do you guys know [TS]

00:57:21   what I was saying with the multiple and [TS]

00:57:23   yeah I know how were you guys fought [TS]

00:57:24   multi devices versus multiple windows I [TS]

00:57:26   know you're not as going on multiple [TS]

00:57:28   windows I am ultimate devices is a [TS]

00:57:29   terrible solution to this problem it is [TS]

00:57:32   you know in many in in some contexts if [TS]

00:57:35   you're trying to do certain things as an [TS]

00:57:37   iOS power user sometimes it's the only [TS]

00:57:38   solution of the problem but you know III [TS]

00:57:41   think and and granted you know to be [TS]

00:57:43   fair [TS]

00:57:43   to the multipad lifestyle people I don't [TS]

00:57:46   think this is the only reason they do [TS]

00:57:48   that it's not just to have two different [TS]

00:57:50   applications right at the same time [TS]

00:57:51   there's other reasons why they would [TS]

00:57:53   have multiple devices for you know same [TS]

00:57:55   reason that many of us have multiple [TS]

00:57:56   macs like you know to have like a big [TS]

00:57:58   one and a small one for travel versus [TS]

00:58:00   home you know stuff like that so all [TS]

00:58:02   those things aside and I and honestly I [TS]

00:58:04   think running two apps side-by-side on [TS]

00:58:06   two different iPads is probably a fairly [TS]

00:58:08   uncommon use of multiple devices that [TS]

00:58:12   from the people who have them but if you [TS]

00:58:15   can picture a future of a future version [TS]

00:58:18   of ipad multitasking where you could [TS]

00:58:21   just resize the apps not just with the [TS]

00:58:24   split view that we have now where you [TS]

00:58:26   just you can have at most two apps on [TS]

00:58:29   screen if you don't count picture and [TS]

00:58:31   picture video playback as one of them [TS]

00:58:32   you have at most 2 f's on screen and [TS]

00:58:34   they can only be arranged left and right [TS]

00:58:37   in just different split sizes that are [TS]

00:58:40   like three different preset sizes that [TS]

00:58:42   they can possibly be that's very limited [TS]

00:58:45   it's a lot better than having no multi [TS]

00:58:48   window environment on on the iPad like [TS]

00:58:50   we had before iOS what was at nine that [TS]

00:58:51   out of that it's a lot better than that [TS]

00:58:53   but it's it's not nearly as powerful as [TS]

00:58:56   having a more freeform system like [TS]

00:58:58   overlapping windows or just more the [TS]

00:59:00   even if it has to only be tiling windows [TS]

00:59:03   and so they can't ever overlap even if [TS]

00:59:05   that's the case ipad screens are a lot [TS]

00:59:08   bigger than phones and any universal app [TS]

00:59:10   is made to scale from an iphone 5s all [TS]

00:59:13   the way up to an ipad 12.9 why can't you [TS]

00:59:17   have like six windows on screen like [TS]

00:59:20   have it be like a three by two grid on [TS]

00:59:22   the 12 point nine inch each one would be [TS]

00:59:24   about the size of a moderately sized [TS]

00:59:26   iphone why couldn't you do something [TS]

00:59:28   like that like have six apps open at [TS]

00:59:30   once or have four apps open at once [TS]

00:59:32   we're there are all small rectangles or [TS]

00:59:33   something like that like I feel like [TS]

00:59:35   there's so many more places I've had [TS]

00:59:37   multitasking can go and granted there's [TS]

00:59:40   a few fundamentals that really need to [TS]

00:59:42   be built first before that makes a lot [TS]

00:59:44   of sense things like drag and drop and [TS]

00:59:46   some kind of more coherent file system [TS]

00:59:49   access in some form but ultimately [TS]

00:59:53   multiple applications being open at once [TS]

00:59:57   not just two of them is is the direction [TS]

00:59:57   not just two of them is is the direction [TS]

01:00:00   this has to go for these devices to [TS]

01:00:02   become more productivity powerhouses [TS]

01:00:04   yeah i think you know John and John I [TS]

01:00:09   think that Mike and in cgpgrey would [TS]

01:00:12   both say that that this is a terrible [TS]

01:00:15   solution like I I think one of you said [TS]

01:00:17   that a minute ago but it's important [TS]

01:00:18   since they're not here to defend [TS]

01:00:19   themselves to stress that I don't think [TS]

01:00:22   that they love the solution it's just [TS]

01:00:23   that they do love iOS and they're [TS]

01:00:25   hamstrung by the the things that iOS [TS]

01:00:27   lets you do and I feel similarly I mean [TS]

01:00:30   I do love my iPad but I've been really [TS]

01:00:33   really strongly kicking around the idea [TS]

01:00:34   of getting a macbook adorable expressly [TS]

01:00:37   because I want something that's [TS]

01:00:39   effectively as portable as an iPad or as [TS]

01:00:41   close as I can get to that but that [TS]

01:00:43   doesn't make me feel hamstrung every [TS]

01:00:46   time I use it and to me the best answer [TS]

01:00:48   to that question is a macbook adorable [TS]

01:00:50   for them I don't think they feel near as [TS]

01:00:53   hamstrung in general the problem is [TS]

01:00:55   simply that they can only do with so [TS]

01:00:56   many things at once and so for them it [TS]

01:01:00   does make sense to live the multipad [TS]

01:01:02   lifestyle I think it's a little bit [TS]

01:01:04   kooky but just because I think that [TS]

01:01:06   doesn't mean that it wouldn't work for [TS]

01:01:07   them and clearly it does the most common [TS]

01:01:10   multi-device thing I would imagine is a [TS]

01:01:12   personal computer style device on your [TS]

01:01:14   phone because like I said there are [TS]

01:01:16   there are definite advantages to [TS]

01:01:18   steampunk windows and one of them is you [TS]

01:01:22   you a compartmentalize of things so very [TS]

01:01:24   often it's text messaging whatever your [TS]

01:01:26   text messaging services of choice text [TS]

01:01:27   messaging on your phone while doing [TS]

01:01:30   other things on your computer and your [TS]

01:01:32   computer may have messages on it or [TS]

01:01:34   maybe doesn't have whatever app using [TS]

01:01:35   maybe you don't choose not to get [TS]

01:01:36   messages but that division of labor [TS]

01:01:38   you're sitting somewhere you know [TS]

01:01:40   sitting in a coffee shop typing [TS]

01:01:42   something on your computer and you get a [TS]

01:01:43   text message and you look at it on your [TS]

01:01:44   phone that that's steampunk window it's [TS]

01:01:48   physically in a different location [TS]

01:01:49   you're in a portable scenario where you [TS]

01:01:51   can have a gigantic 30-inch drafting [TS]

01:01:53   board you know surface book pro like you [TS]

01:01:55   can't have that you're you're on the go [TS]

01:01:57   it is a different site line two [TS]

01:02:00   different focal distance it is a [TS]

01:02:01   physical device that you used to texting [TS]

01:02:03   people from all your past texts in the [TS]

01:02:05   apps that you love our on there using [TS]

01:02:07   that as a steampunk window to do your [TS]

01:02:09   you're texting is perfectly valid and [TS]

01:02:12   probably is an advantage [TS]

01:02:13   over trying to cram your messages window [TS]

01:02:15   onto your 12 inch macbook screen next to [TS]

01:02:19   the thing that you were trying to write [TS]

01:02:20   in your distraction free writing [TS]

01:02:21   environment right so like I I get it I [TS]

01:02:25   get why there is I I do it myself [TS]

01:02:27   sometimes when I'm at work sometimes at [TS]

01:02:29   work I will send and receive text [TS]

01:02:30   messages on my phone even though I could [TS]

01:02:33   be getting them on my mac screen just [TS]

01:02:34   because it is a nice [TS]

01:02:35   compartmentalization of work versus [TS]

01:02:37   personal you know texting over who's [TS]

01:02:38   going to pick up what kid from what [TS]

01:02:39   activity or what you know what I mean [TS]

01:02:40   like it makes sense to me to do that [TS]

01:02:43   starts to make less sense when you're in [TS]

01:02:46   an environment you have a big desk and a [TS]

01:02:48   raid on your desk you have a series of [TS]

01:02:49   iOS devices of different sizes because [TS]

01:02:50   then then I feel like you're [TS]

01:02:52   compromising in ways in you know who is [TS]

01:02:55   this a case you're saying like they're [TS]

01:02:56   using iOS because they want to I [TS]

01:02:58   understand that and they have to do this [TS]

01:03:00   because they are limited in their [TS]

01:03:01   multitasking and a more than anyone [TS]

01:03:03   would like rich or multitasking so I'm [TS]

01:03:04   not I'm not slamming them for saying you [TS]

01:03:06   should just use windows because you [TS]

01:03:07   can't you can't use it on iOS and if you [TS]

01:03:08   want to use iOS devices there we're [TS]

01:03:11   stuck waiting for Apple to innovate [TS]

01:03:12   there it's just frustrating to me that [TS]

01:03:13   we seem to be creepy users are [TS]

01:03:15   organically creeping up on on that [TS]

01:03:18   solution and that the solution is much [TS]

01:03:22   bigger iOS device is suitable for a [TS]

01:03:23   desktop environment that supports [TS]

01:03:25   something like Windows that gives the [TS]

01:03:27   user is more flexibility in how they [TS]

01:03:29   arrange their space everybody does this [TS]

01:03:31   is one of my big things with all spatial [TS]

01:03:32   founder and everybody arrange is their [TS]

01:03:34   workspace especially if it's a job [TS]

01:03:36   you're doing all the time whether it is [TS]

01:03:38   a carpenter arranging their tools or an [TS]

01:03:40   artist arranging their palates and their [TS]

01:03:42   paints and their brushes and they're [TS]

01:03:45   easily like and having or a chef setting [TS]

01:03:48   aside all the ingredients that they're [TS]

01:03:49   going to you know use in their thing it [TS]

01:03:51   like everybody arranged is their [TS]

01:03:52   workspace efficient workers do arrange [TS]

01:03:54   their workspace we all do it on our [TS]

01:03:56   computers now we all have different [TS]

01:03:57   arrangements and different amounts of [TS]

01:03:58   things and whether use spaces are not [TS]

01:04:00   our tiling window manager not or [TS]

01:04:02   maximize everything and flip through [TS]

01:04:03   them with your fingers or alt tab [TS]

01:04:05   through things or click like that's the [TS]

01:04:07   thing that we're going to do matter what [TS]

01:04:08   we do with we do with windows we do it [TS]

01:04:10   with our steampunk windows we do it in [TS]

01:04:12   the physical world and I think no matter [TS]

01:04:15   what our interface to work is it has to [TS]

01:04:18   allow us to do that in some way and so [TS]

01:04:20   you know Mike and teacher be grey and [TS]

01:04:22   everyone else who live in the multipad [TS]

01:04:24   lifestyle they're doing it the only way [TS]

01:04:26   that is available to the [TS]

01:04:27   with the tools that they like but I [TS]

01:04:29   think we have to acknowledge the other [TS]

01:04:31   approach is fairly well proven at this [TS]

01:04:34   point for a certain set of users it is [TS]

01:04:37   disproven for a certain set of users as [TS]

01:04:38   well because we all know that novice [TS]

01:04:40   users the reason why they love iOS is [TS]

01:04:42   because doesn't let them have to deal [TS]

01:04:43   with this crap they don't get all [TS]

01:04:44   confused by a bunch of windows right but [TS]

01:04:45   for a certain set of users you know if [TS]

01:04:47   you were to tell someone that they had [TS]

01:04:49   to you know do three animation for Pixar [TS]

01:04:53   about where they weren't allowed to use [TS]

01:04:54   windows they just had to use everything [TS]

01:04:55   full screen or a split screen they would [TS]

01:04:57   have a much harder time getting a job [TS]

01:04:58   done I would imagine also I mean like [TS]

01:05:01   one other like side benefit like if [TS]

01:05:03   Apple were to do windowing on iPads it [TS]

01:05:07   would also solve a tremendous problem of [TS]

01:05:09   the iPad app ecosystem where iOS apps [TS]

01:05:12   are often not very optimized for the [TS]

01:05:14   iPad or aren't optimized for it at all [TS]

01:05:16   and sometimes really big apps like [TS]

01:05:17   Instagram where which famously like [TS]

01:05:20   still does not have an iPad app and also [TS]

01:05:22   shut down the API that allowed other [TS]

01:05:24   iPad apps to exist for them imagine if [TS]

01:05:28   instead of having the you know the dumb [TS]

01:05:31   like you know giant letterboxd iPhone [TS]

01:05:34   simulator version on ipad what if you [TS]

01:05:36   launched an on ipad optimized app and it [TS]

01:05:40   just launched in a in an iPhone sized [TS]

01:05:42   window and you could drag it around and [TS]

01:05:44   you could have other apps that you could [TS]

01:05:46   shrink down to that size and tile around [TS]

01:05:48   your screen if you wanted to like almost [TS]

01:05:51   every iPad app that is the universal app [TS]

01:05:55   with its phone version can again it can [TS]

01:05:57   scale to all these different sizes you [TS]

01:05:59   could solve problems like this very very [TS]

01:06:01   well also things like you know when [TS]

01:06:03   Apple does make larger iPads that [TS]

01:06:05   there's still a lot of ipad apps that [TS]

01:06:07   aren't optimized for the 12.9 what if [TS]

01:06:09   when you launch one of these things on [TS]

01:06:11   12.9 it just launched in a 9.7 sized [TS]

01:06:14   window and it was just one of many [TS]

01:06:16   windows on your screen like there are [TS]

01:06:18   there are lots of benefits to this and [TS]

01:06:20   granted there's a lot of you I [TS]

01:06:21   challenges and a lot of probably [TS]

01:06:23   technical challenges of things like how [TS]

01:06:25   do you manage memory for all these [TS]

01:06:27   different apps that could be you know [TS]

01:06:28   appearing to be running all at once and [TS]

01:06:31   be in the foreground all at once and [TS]

01:06:32   lots of API challenges or things like [TS]

01:06:34   touch handling and what what kind of [TS]

01:06:36   gets the attention and what doesn't and [TS]

01:06:37   there's some weirdness already with like [TS]

01:06:39   multitasking of like if [TS]

01:06:40   you have a keyboard connected and you [TS]

01:06:43   have you know two and you have two [TS]

01:06:45   different apps open right now during [TS]

01:06:46   most Destin and you hit a shortcut key [TS]

01:06:49   on the keyboard which app gets it and [TS]

01:06:51   right now I think it's just like [TS]

01:06:53   whatever app you tapped last or [TS]

01:06:54   something but it's like that but there's [TS]

01:06:56   no active state on the title bar to [TS]

01:06:58   indicate which one that is so you just [TS]

01:07:00   have to know or guess or try it so like [TS]

01:07:02   if they were to go in a direction like [TS]

01:07:04   this that that brought like full-blown [TS]

01:07:06   windowing in some form or full-blown [TS]

01:07:08   most as like this to iOS there is a lot [TS]

01:07:11   of work to be done it's not a small task [TS]

01:07:13   it is a this is not something they could [TS]

01:07:15   do in you know likely one release you [TS]

01:07:18   know this is like a massive undertaking [TS]

01:07:20   and they've already done some of it but [TS]

01:07:23   doing a more freeform system Michael [TS]

01:07:25   we're describing would require a lot [TS]

01:07:27   more of it but I think the result would [TS]

01:07:30   be pretty great and an incredibly [TS]

01:07:32   powerful and really revive the ipad for [TS]

01:07:35   productivity use which it does seem like [TS]

01:07:37   Apple needs something to do that that [TS]

01:07:40   would be great and that would also you [TS]

01:07:42   know if we if we do it the way I say [TS]

01:07:43   we're like you know not optimized apps [TS]

01:07:45   with just launched in old device sized [TS]

01:07:47   windows that could also solve this major [TS]

01:07:49   market and software ecosystem problem [TS]

01:07:52   that the ipad also faces so like this [TS]

01:07:55   would be a really great solution in a [TS]

01:07:56   number of ways the only question is like [TS]

01:07:58   would they ever do it would they would [TS]

01:08:00   it be worth devoting the resources to [TS]

01:08:02   and would they then just be recreating [TS]

01:08:04   the mac poorly you know like they like [TS]

01:08:06   the old lisp joke like or unix or [TS]

01:08:09   whatever for purple eyes everything [TS]

01:08:10   later be recreating the mac better they [TS]

01:08:12   should be learning from the mac and you [TS]

01:08:14   know making it better faster like you [TS]

01:08:16   know the Six Million Dollar Man type of [TS]

01:08:19   thing they should like they trying to [TS]

01:08:21   slowly convert the mac and do a thing [TS]

01:08:22   like into a thing that is better than [TS]

01:08:24   mac is difficult but iOS you know is a [TS]

01:08:27   relatively clean slate they they can [TS]

01:08:29   reconsider everything they can only [TS]

01:08:31   bring over the things that are good they [TS]

01:08:32   can make different compromises they can [TS]

01:08:34   skew it in a particular direction they [TS]

01:08:36   can make they can try to make it so [TS]

01:08:37   users who can't deal with lots of [TS]

01:08:40   windows don't have to like make get [TS]

01:08:44   shave off the sharp corners because you [TS]

01:08:46   see everyone's seen someone struggle to [TS]

01:08:48   manage windows on a personal computer [TS]

01:08:49   but you know the lowercase W again [TS]

01:08:52   whether it's on the Mac or on the pc [TS]

01:08:54   even in on the pc where everything is [TS]

01:08:56   full screen and people are alt tabbing [TS]

01:08:57   there's still some confusion about [TS]

01:08:59   floating things in layering and dialog [TS]

01:09:00   boxes that appear and where did it go [TS]

01:09:02   and mission a mission control and [TS]

01:09:05   formerly expose and all that was [TS]

01:09:06   supposed to help with that and all those [TS]

01:09:07   are great things those are all things to [TS]

01:09:08   learn from trying the right compromise [TS]

01:09:11   for iOS devices where most of the time [TS]

01:09:14   it works the way most people want it to [TS]

01:09:15   but that the more advanced users have [TS]

01:09:17   the ability to to get the productivity [TS]

01:09:20   advantages that these people are [TS]

01:09:22   currently getting with multiple physical [TS]

01:09:23   devices that's that's the bounce that [TS]

01:09:27   Apple should strike and I think it's [TS]

01:09:28   great to do that on iOS where you are [TS]

01:09:30   not constrained by even making something [TS]

01:09:33   like Stevens thing here it looks like a [TS]

01:09:35   Mac window who says the title bar so the [TS]

01:09:37   right thing who says the window should [TS]

01:09:38   have window witters what about scroll [TS]

01:09:39   bar like you rethink everything but yeah [TS]

01:09:41   I'm thinking broadly speaking like you [TS]

01:09:43   were saying applications running [TS]

01:09:46   simultaneously as we get more and more [TS]

01:09:48   RAM becomes much more viable and [TS]

01:09:49   figuring out what that means as screens [TS]

01:09:53   get bigger letting people divide the [TS]

01:09:55   screen space the way they want to divide [TS]

01:09:56   it up among the applications that they [TS]

01:09:58   want to run and then eventually gets [TS]

01:10:00   indecisive the right approach to this [TS]

01:10:02   thing what about preserving the [TS]

01:10:03   arrangement because sometimes you do [TS]

01:10:05   side by side windows but then you go off [TS]

01:10:06   and do something else how do you get [TS]

01:10:08   back into that side-by-side arrangement [TS]

01:10:09   or maybe you want to go back to just one [TS]

01:10:11   application not be in the side-by-side [TS]

01:10:12   arrangement but there are so many things [TS]

01:10:15   that are still undetermined and its [TS]

01:10:18   young and they haven't made a lot of [TS]

01:10:19   decisions yet so I think it's fine but [TS]

01:10:20   you know as Marco pointed out they [TS]

01:10:21   already painted themselves into weird [TS]

01:10:23   corners where like oh we allowed most [TS]

01:10:25   buildings on the screen and we allow [TS]

01:10:26   keyboard shortcuts but not we never [TS]

01:10:28   thought of a way to indicate which one [TS]

01:10:30   is that has the focus so already we're [TS]

01:10:33   in a weird situation like you should [TS]

01:10:35   they should think more of those through [TS]

01:10:36   before they take the nap step maybe they [TS]

01:10:37   are maybe like we don't want to do this [TS]

01:10:39   we have an awesome idea that's going to [TS]

01:10:40   be out in five years and we don't want [TS]

01:10:42   you stomping on it but I think it's [TS]

01:10:43   silly I think you should let third-party [TS]

01:10:44   developers go nuts and figure out what [TS]

01:10:49   works and maybe you got some good ideas [TS]

01:10:50   from them we are sponsored this week by [TS]

01:10:53   Squarespace make your next move with a [TS]

01:10:56   beautiful website from Squarespace [TS]

01:10:57   almost everything we do today uses a [TS]

01:11:00   website you need a website for any kind [TS]

01:11:02   of online store or blog or portfolio or [TS]

01:11:05   business or new project or pod [TS]

01:11:08   asked almost everything that you would [TS]

01:11:10   do needs a website these days but it's [TS]

01:11:12   not really worth installing a whole CMS [TS]

01:11:15   and building the entire thing from the [TS]

01:11:16   ground up and having to manage a server [TS]

01:11:18   and having to manage software updates [TS]

01:11:20   and everything else and then having [TS]

01:11:21   having to hire somebody to custom design [TS]

01:11:23   it for you that's so much overhead and [TS]

01:11:25   hassle and cost and time but really you [TS]

01:11:28   should just have the website be taken [TS]

01:11:30   care of as quickly and easily as [TS]

01:11:31   possible and then move on to something [TS]

01:11:33   to your actual project that you're [TS]

01:11:35   actually building web site for [TS]

01:11:36   Squarespace lets you do that whether [TS]

01:11:39   you're making a site for yourself or for [TS]

01:11:41   somebody else who's asked you to make a [TS]

01:11:42   site because if you listen to show you [TS]

01:11:43   probably know how to make websites you [TS]

01:11:45   probably had people in your life asked [TS]

01:11:46   you to make them for them Squarespace is [TS]

01:11:48   so much better than any other option out [TS]

01:11:50   there for making most websites because [TS]

01:11:53   they have built-in templates they have [TS]

01:11:55   built-in widgets and capabilities so [TS]

01:11:58   much is built in that you can do a [TS]

01:12:00   remarkable amount in less than an hour [TS]

01:12:03   like I challenge you next time you have [TS]

01:12:05   to make a website for anybody for [TS]

01:12:06   yourself or somebody else try it on [TS]

01:12:08   Squarespace first give me the benefit of [TS]

01:12:10   the doubt here try it there first and [TS]

01:12:12   just see how far you get in an hour or [TS]

01:12:14   less even and I bet you're gonna get so [TS]

01:12:16   far that you're going to how you know [TS]

01:12:18   what this is done like this or you can [TS]

01:12:21   finish it like in another hour then [TS]

01:12:22   you're done that's it no matter what [TS]

01:12:24   your skill level whether you're a novice [TS]

01:12:25   or whether you're a web programmer you [TS]

01:12:27   can get so much done with squares but [TS]

01:12:29   you can make a beautiful website it [TS]

01:12:31   looks professionally designed and it [TS]

01:12:33   stays up because they keep they may they [TS]

01:12:34   manage it for you they support it if [TS]

01:12:36   you're making for somebody else is very [TS]

01:12:37   important they support it you don't have [TS]

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01:12:56   squarespace ah speaking of ipad clothes [TS]

01:13:02   a full god running it's so much anger [TS]

01:13:07   from the ipad people I'm so sorry [TS]

01:13:08   everyone we shouldn't we also had good [TS]

01:13:10   things about the ipad yeah the good [TS]

01:13:12   thing is like the cortex hosts have now [TS]

01:13:14   moved on from talking about the multipad [TS]

01:13:16   lifestyle now they're both just slowly [TS]

01:13:18   becoming programmers but they're both in [TS]

01:13:20   denial of that fact [TS]

01:13:21   they both keep inching more and more [TS]

01:13:23   towards like guys you're actually just [TS]

01:13:25   becoming programmers and it's okay and [TS]

01:13:27   that's good there it turns out there's a [TS]

01:13:29   way to automate our computing tasks you [TS]

01:13:34   just write these little things you could [TS]

01:13:36   call them I don't know programs yeah it [TS]

01:13:39   reminds me of some what did I say [TS]

01:13:40   somewhere when some business snark [TS]

01:13:43   website thing talking about [TS]

01:13:45   specifications first off our projects [TS]

01:13:48   like if you read the requirements write [TS]

01:13:49   and you dreaded requirements and you [TS]

01:13:51   typically requirements like I want to do [TS]

01:13:53   blah blah blah and it's like that's too [TS]

01:13:55   vague I don't know exactly what you want [TS]

01:13:56   so you go back and forth about the [TS]

01:13:57   requirements do you know how do you want [TS]

01:13:59   to work know how do you really want to [TS]

01:14:00   work your honor barclay guess work like [TS]

01:14:01   that and eventually the business person [TS]

01:14:03   getting frustrated and it's like look [TS]

01:14:06   just I'm going to tell you exactly how I [TS]

01:14:08   wanted to work with no ambiguity and [TS]

01:14:11   it's like if you do that what you've [TS]

01:14:12   done is wrote a program yeah eventually [TS]

01:14:15   it to specify it that's what programmers [TS]

01:14:18   do like people just want to specify it [TS]

01:14:20   and like and the adi adi or start all [TS]

01:14:21   the details the computer you can't yadda [TS]

01:14:22   yadda you have to say no how exactly do [TS]

01:14:25   you want to work all right I'm going to [TS]

01:14:26   tell you exactly how you wanted to work [TS]

01:14:27   in every kid in every condition here's [TS]

01:14:29   what you can do both love but it's like [TS]

01:14:31   that's program that's called programming [TS]

01:14:33   you were you what you want to be a [TS]

01:14:34   programmer now so go ahead all right [TS]

01:14:36   thank you you can very quickly find [TS]

01:14:38   yourself becoming a programmer with as [TS]

01:14:40   accidental pouring podcast become a [TS]

01:14:42   programmer without knowing it because [TS]

01:14:43   eventually you'd be like getting down to [TS]

01:14:46   a level of detail were you telling it [TS]

01:14:47   I'm gonna tell you about every possible [TS]

01:14:49   eventuality what you should do that's [TS]

01:14:51   programming sure does know just does [TS]

01:14:54   what you tell him what I love how like I [TS]

01:14:56   think I think Mike in particular is in [TS]

01:14:58   this isn't a special denial place here [TS]

01:15:00   of like he makes fun of what not making [TS]

01:15:03   fun but like he talks about the way [TS]

01:15:06   developers use the terminal and and just [TS]

01:15:09   geeks use the terminal as this kind of [TS]

01:15:12   like crazy opaque thing that is this you [TS]

01:15:15   know incredibly you know geeky obscure [TS]

01:15:17   and then they'd like to talk about you [TS]

01:15:20   like using workflow against Web API is [TS]

01:15:22   to automate certain times like it's the [TS]

01:15:24   same thing like it's just different to [TS]

01:15:26   different era of the exact same thing [TS]

01:15:28   like the same kind of learning curve [TS]

01:15:30   really the same kind of you know similar [TS]

01:15:32   kind of capabilities as usual the old [TS]

01:15:35   like us think the old way was better but [TS]

01:15:36   you know it's really the same kinds of [TS]

01:15:38   things yeah although I think Mike my [TS]

01:15:43   understanding of what Mike is doing is [TS]

01:15:44   that he's largely cribbing what others [TS]

01:15:48   like Federico or cgpgrey have done and [TS]

01:15:50   modifying them a little bit but to build [TS]

01:15:52   on what you were saying so on the [TS]

01:15:53   surface you know it sounds like Oh [TS]

01:15:54   Mike's not really a program at all but [TS]

01:15:56   really that's how all programmers work [TS]

01:15:58   is they take something that gets you [TS]

01:15:59   eighty percent of the way there and in [TS]

01:16:01   fix what you need in order to get the [TS]

01:16:02   rest of the way and so I agree with you [TS]

01:16:04   and Federico to me is is the king of [TS]

01:16:07   this oh yes he's writing like ridiculous [TS]

01:16:09   Python scripts and these like hyper [TS]

01:16:11   involved workflows with like potentially [TS]

01:16:14   even recursion within them and it's just [TS]

01:16:15   he's a developer we actually Federico [TS]

01:16:18   and I in a happy way had this fight like [TS]

01:16:20   i don't know to two months ago where I [TS]

01:16:21   said don't dude you are developer at [TS]

01:16:23   this point like don't even try to [TS]

01:16:24   pretend you're not in and he didn't want [TS]

01:16:27   to hear it not in a jerky way he just [TS]

01:16:28   like oh I'm not a developer I don't know [TS]

01:16:30   how to do the stuff you guys do like [TS]

01:16:31   you're doing it it's not even a question [TS]

01:16:33   it's already happening in the same way [TS]

01:16:36   like that our friend dr. Drang is you [TS]

01:16:38   know like dr. drying post on leading [TS]

01:16:40   crew calm and like he's not a programmer [TS]

01:16:42   by trade but he writes tons of scripts [TS]

01:16:46   most of which are in Python to do all [TS]

01:16:48   sorts of things for his work and so like [TS]

01:16:51   he wildly while he probably does not [TS]

01:16:53   consider himself a programmer he uses [TS]

01:16:56   programming he knows a programming [TS]

01:16:58   language and he uses it to get tasks [TS]

01:17:00   done for his work and there's lots of [TS]

01:17:03   room for that type of person you know [TS]

01:17:06   just like look I mean like Microsoft [TS]

01:17:07   Office has has forever had its macro [TS]

01:17:10   language right it's that's the same [TS]

01:17:11   thing that's just visual basic like it's [TS]

01:17:13   the same that that's also programming my [TS]

01:17:15   first job was programming vba in a giant [TS]

01:17:18   Excel spreadsheet for some company to [TS]

01:17:19   save that much time like that's that's a [TS]

01:17:22   lot of what programming in the world [TS]

01:17:23   would actually is like people doing like [TS]

01:17:24   little custom or one off things that is [TS]

01:17:27   programming there's kind of this [TS]

01:17:28   continuum of like power users like hey [TS]

01:17:31   first the first thing you learn as i [TS]

01:17:32   could power user is you might learn like [TS]

01:17:34   a keyboard shortcut for some common [TS]

01:17:36   stuff and ohmygod this is great and then [TS]

01:17:38   eventually you might learn some kind of [TS]

01:17:41   automation of something like you know [TS]

01:17:43   first you kind of figure like how do you [TS]

01:17:44   do manual work faster right that's at [TS]

01:17:46   the keyboard shortcut approach then you [TS]

01:17:48   start figuring out [TS]

01:17:49   like how do I actually use the computers [TS]

01:17:52   immense speed and power to do things [TS]

01:17:55   faster than I could do them manually and [TS]

01:17:57   that's me checking it's like the basic [TS]

01:17:59   things like batch operations in pro apps [TS]

01:18:02   on the mac you'd have things like [TS]

01:18:04   Automator and on ipad yo things like [TS]

01:18:06   workflow and then eventually I feel like [TS]

01:18:09   the next epithet is like no you're [TS]

01:18:11   actually just writing code if some sort [TS]

01:18:13   whether it's just a simple stealing a [TS]

01:18:15   shell script or a javascript thing or [TS]

01:18:18   whether it's actually like you know a [TS]

01:18:20   Ruby or Python like what we'd call it a [TS]

01:18:22   real language script or app to do [TS]

01:18:25   something custom like this is just these [TS]

01:18:27   are all just points on the the power [TS]

01:18:30   user curve and being a programmer is not [TS]

01:18:33   like some special boundary that you have [TS]

01:18:36   to like go to college to know how to do [TS]

01:18:37   no it's just like it's just the next [TS]

01:18:39   step on that curve after you've used [TS]

01:18:41   tools like workflow or Automator and you [TS]

01:18:44   kind of want a little bit more [TS]

01:18:45   customization or a little bit more power [TS]

01:18:47   and then you get into these things that [TS]

01:18:49   really are programming you just might [TS]

01:18:51   not realize it until after you've been [TS]

01:18:52   doing it for a while yeah Mike and [TS]

01:18:55   fatigue would both be making hypercard [TS]

01:18:58   stacks 30 years ago okay I don't you [TS]

01:19:00   guys don't remember that error but I use [TS]

01:19:01   hyper card yep same here there used to [TS]

01:19:03   be many more back back before Apple and [TS]

01:19:07   most of the rest of the industry gave up [TS]

01:19:08   on the idea of trying to make [TS]

01:19:10   programming easy enough for people who [TS]

01:19:11   didn't want to be into programming there [TS]

01:19:12   are many many attempts Apple script is [TS]

01:19:14   one of them to try to make programming [TS]

01:19:16   more accessible to the masses with [TS]

01:19:20   something that is farther along that [TS]

01:19:21   curve that actually is a real [TS]

01:19:23   programming language but is this a [TS]

01:19:25   language that looks friendly or whatever [TS]

01:19:27   and lots of people into hyper card [TS]

01:19:29   stacks and like it's another accidental [TS]

01:19:30   programmer thing we're sure people made [TS]

01:19:32   hypercar stack so most people it wasn't [TS]

01:19:34   easy enough for them to tackle many [TS]

01:19:35   people who didn't consider themselves [TS]

01:19:36   programmers were like they weren't [TS]

01:19:39   intimidated by hypercard and like oh [TS]

01:19:42   i'll go through these tutorials so i can [TS]

01:19:44   make a button new i click the button [TS]

01:19:45   into makes a beeping noise like and you [TS]

01:19:47   know and for some what you're trying to [TS]

01:19:49   make a button on a mac of that era was [TS]

01:19:51   much harder if you were using the mac [TS]

01:19:54   toolbox and it wasn't hypercard and so [TS]

01:19:55   they could be successful pretty quickly [TS]

01:19:57   and for the people who had the who were [TS]

01:20:00   into that who like the [TS]

01:20:02   they never thought of themselves as [TS]

01:20:03   programmers but it turns out if you [TS]

01:20:05   introduce them to it fast forward three [TS]

01:20:07   months and they're writing this [TS]

01:20:08   incredibly complicated hypercard stack [TS]

01:20:09   using hyper talk like a real programmer [TS]

01:20:11   and they have suddenly found themselves [TS]

01:20:13   as not everybody who does it's not like [TS]

01:20:15   it turns people into programs it reveals [TS]

01:20:17   programmers that were always there right [TS]

01:20:19   and they just you know what happens with [TS]

01:20:21   someone who is who's like just naturally [TS]

01:20:23   wants to do this they start off with the [TS]

01:20:25   beeping button and you just you just [TS]

01:20:27   step away for like a couple weeks and [TS]

01:20:29   you come back as like what have you done [TS]

01:20:31   and like they have made this entire [TS]

01:20:32   world for themselves and they have no [TS]

01:20:34   formal education they don't know what a [TS]

01:20:35   subject team is they don't know any [TS]

01:20:37   theory about data structures are but [TS]

01:20:38   they're like deriving from first [TS]

01:20:40   principles the basics of programming and [TS]

01:20:42   hyper talk and you know doing incredible [TS]

01:20:45   I saw it all the time doing incredible [TS]

01:20:46   things and it's like someone who runs [TS]

01:20:48   the general store makes a hyper card [TS]

01:20:49   stack to do their inventory and it's [TS]

01:20:51   like you may not know it but you are now [TS]

01:20:53   a programmer and this is the thing you [TS]

01:20:55   could have done as a profession even [TS]

01:20:57   though you have no formal education in [TS]

01:20:58   it and really still don't quite know [TS]

01:21:00   what you're doing in the formal sense [TS]

01:21:01   but you are you are rediscovering the [TS]

01:21:04   rudiments of program with no instruction [TS]

01:21:06   from anywhere else really by having a [TS]

01:21:08   box in front of you and knowing some [TS]

01:21:10   basic things and that is that is a [TS]

01:21:11   beautiful thing to see and I love [TS]

01:21:13   hearing stories of like places that are [TS]

01:21:15   still running hypercard stacks and like [TS]

01:21:16   their mac Aziz just because like they [TS]

01:21:19   run their entire business on and [TS]

01:21:20   somebody wrote it years ago I guess [TS]

01:21:22   that's not like this is more [TS]

01:21:23   heartwarming because I know it it's not [TS]

01:21:24   quite as heart wrong people still [TS]

01:21:25   burning their payroll and COBOL or [TS]

01:21:27   whatever but I think why do kids took [TS]

01:21:28   care of a lot of those but but either [TS]

01:21:30   way like that for people who are [TS]

01:21:32   listening who think they will never be [TS]

01:21:34   programmers it that's possible you may [TS]

01:21:37   never be it but it's like it's like a [TS]

01:21:39   there's a reason people caught like the [TS]

01:21:40   permit roaring bug like you get bitten [TS]

01:21:42   by it and you just find this happens to [TS]

01:21:44   all of us here on this podcast I'm sure [TS]

01:21:45   and everyone else into computers at some [TS]

01:21:47   point you get exposed to something and [TS]

01:21:49   it just you know it sinks its teeth into [TS]

01:21:53   you and you lose track of time you lose [TS]

01:21:55   track of the years and you realize this [TS]

01:21:57   is just the whole world that you bury [TS]

01:21:58   yourself into some people are exposed to [TS]

01:22:01   the exact same thing or like yeah not [TS]

01:22:03   for me right but the distinction would [TS]

01:22:06   you tell most people has nothing to do [TS]

01:22:07   with education or even desire it is just [TS]

01:22:09   like how their brains work if is [TS]

01:22:11   programming addicting to you you will [TS]

01:22:14   know that pretty quickly and you look at [TS]

01:22:15   something like petite [TS]

01:22:16   guess what programming is addicted to [TS]

01:22:18   him like you would not be doing these [TS]

01:22:20   things if he it like it he's bitten so [TS]

01:22:22   hard but it's like the he's mad with the [TS]

01:22:25   power of being able to tell the computer [TS]

01:22:27   to do what he wants it to do in a series [TS]

01:22:29   of sophisticated ways breaking down the [TS]

01:22:31   problem into smaller pieces Rican [TS]

01:22:33   binding them right he's bitten by it so [TS]

01:22:34   hard just because he's not writing C [TS]

01:22:37   doesn't mean that he is not a bitten by [TS]

01:22:39   the pura buggin be become a programmer [TS]

01:22:41   and I feel like that's the whole beauty [TS]

01:22:44   of computers is like when you when you [TS]

01:22:46   break that barrier between like when I [TS]

01:22:48   was saying on my curve about like when [TS]

01:22:50   you're just doing manual things faster [TS]

01:22:52   versus when you have the computer start [TS]

01:22:54   working for you and way faster than you [TS]

01:22:57   ever could manually the whole beauty of [TS]

01:22:59   computers is the ability to cross that [TS]

01:23:01   line the ability to do that like when [TS]

01:23:04   Slyke this the famous Steve Jobs quote [TS]

01:23:05   about the computer is a bicycle for the [TS]

01:23:07   mind like it's not because you know that [TS]

01:23:10   you all the shortcut keys to do things [TS]

01:23:12   repetitively over and over again it's [TS]

01:23:14   because you could just like put in some [TS]

01:23:16   just the right kind of input and this [TS]

01:23:18   computer can just skyrocket past you [TS]

01:23:21   executing that code way way way faster [TS]

01:23:24   and more reliable and more consistently [TS]

01:23:25   than you ever could or doing things that [TS]

01:23:27   you could never do in a practical amount [TS]

01:23:29   of time like and it's just like one of [TS]

01:23:33   the reasons why I get frustrated when [TS]

01:23:36   things like you know iOS move or start [TS]

01:23:40   and directions where things really [TS]

01:23:41   locked down and it's hard to do that [TS]

01:23:42   kind of stuff it's because I feel like [TS]

01:23:44   that's kind of missing or kind of like [TS]

01:23:47   blowing the whole advantage that [TS]

01:23:50   computers have given us as a society [TS]

01:23:52   like the whole point of computers is to [TS]

01:23:56   enable humans to do think to to have [TS]

01:24:00   these kind of you know information based [TS]

01:24:02   tasks done in in ways and at speeds and [TS]

01:24:07   volumes that we could never do on our [TS]

01:24:09   own like through manual calculations or [TS]

01:24:12   anything else and for any computer [TS]

01:24:15   platform to be truly empowering to its [TS]

01:24:17   users it has to allow that in some way [TS]

01:24:20   and hopefully in a reasonably easy and [TS]

01:24:23   capable way and efforts to do that on [TS]

01:24:27   iOS are really really held back by [TS]

01:24:30   just limitations of iOS and things like [TS]

01:24:32   workflow and python is starlike they [TS]

01:24:35   these things have existed and do exist [TS]

01:24:37   and are good for people but there's so [TS]

01:24:41   much further to go to make them even [TS]

01:24:44   just match the level of power and [TS]

01:24:48   sophistication that regular people can [TS]

01:24:50   achieve on you know windows or a Mac let [TS]

01:24:53   alone like on you know future things [TS]

01:24:55   that we might think of even better ways [TS]

01:24:57   to do things and so that that's kind of [TS]

01:24:59   like it kind of hurts me philosophically [TS]

01:25:03   whenever it appears the computing [TS]

01:25:05   platform is going in the opposite [TS]

01:25:06   direction and what most Lee's people are [TS]

01:25:09   doing by the way like in the continuum [TS]

01:25:11   is that that you can use tools made by [TS]

01:25:13   other people which is what the app store [TS]

01:25:14   is great like gives regular people [TS]

01:25:16   access to tools other people have made [TS]

01:25:18   for doing common test hey so you've you [TS]

01:25:20   know you're taking the inventory of all [TS]

01:25:22   the books that are on your shelves [TS]

01:25:23   there's an app that you can just point [TS]

01:25:24   your phone at it and but look up the you [TS]

01:25:26   know someone it's over like it's a tool [TS]

01:25:27   to do a job better right the the next [TS]

01:25:30   step along that is I don't see any tool [TS]

01:25:32   that does the thing that I wanted to do [TS]

01:25:33   I'm going to make my own tool so it's [TS]

01:25:35   not just that they're automating [TS]

01:25:36   repetitive tasks but that they are [TS]

01:25:37   building a tool for them to do whatever [TS]

01:25:39   real-world tests they're doing whether [TS]

01:25:41   it's managing their business or doing [TS]

01:25:43   their hobby keeping track of their model [TS]

01:25:44   trains or controlling their model trains [TS]

01:25:46   or whatever like they don't see the [TS]

01:25:48   thing that they want in the world and [TS]

01:25:49   they realize they can make this thing do [TS]

01:25:52   what they wanted to do it so they build [TS]

01:25:53   tool for themselves and it doesn't mean [TS]

01:25:56   they have to suddenly become an app [TS]

01:25:57   developer and sell that thing or [TS]

01:25:58   whatever it's just like the people use a [TS]

01:25:59   FileMaker database to manage their you [TS]

01:26:01   know retail store or something where [TS]

01:26:03   they sale cameras they don't consider [TS]

01:26:05   that they're making a tool to do to [TS]

01:26:07   accomplish some other task that's just [TS]

01:26:09   another point in the line using other [TS]

01:26:10   people's tools versus saying God no one [TS]

01:26:13   else makes this tool or the tools they [TS]

01:26:14   make aren't to my liking and I can make [TS]

01:26:16   my own tool to do it fatigue is [TS]

01:26:17   essentially making his own tools for his [TS]

01:26:19   work flow because there's no existing [TS]

01:26:21   thing that integrates all the different [TS]

01:26:22   pieces the way he wants them to do and [TS]

01:26:24   he has specific needs about it so you [TS]

01:26:26   know it's not you know in some cases he [TS]

01:26:28   is automating something you have to do [TS]

01:26:29   manual but other cases like he's it's [TS]

01:26:31   not a plication development but it's [TS]

01:26:32   it's tool building and we all do that [TS]

01:26:34   smart little monkeys that use a stick to [TS]

01:26:36   you know hit something instead of our [TS]

01:26:38   hands because the stick is better right [TS]

01:26:40   you know it's all you know a bicycle for [TS]

01:26:43   the mind has more poetry [TS]

01:26:44   then a wooden stick a monkey with a [TS]

01:26:47   stick yeah or that you know the muggy [TS]

01:26:50   with the bone from 2001 but that's [TS]

01:26:51   basically a lot of boils down to and [TS]

01:26:53   taking away the ability to or you know [TS]

01:26:57   not taking it away but making the [TS]

01:26:59   barrier to making your old tools mean [TS]

01:27:01   like either you get to use tools other [TS]

01:27:03   people made giant giant gap Xcode that [TS]

01:27:07   gap is too big yeah it's too big for [TS]

01:27:10   most people to cross and there it you [TS]

01:27:12   know the apps like workflow show that [TS]

01:27:13   there is a Raeven Automator or simple [TS]

01:27:16   scripting languages or anything like [TS]

01:27:17   that or poor HyperCard all that stuff [TS]

01:27:19   even though most of the experiments [TS]

01:27:21   failed in what they thought the goal [TS]

01:27:22   would be like everyone's going to be a [TS]

01:27:24   programmer nope that's not going to [TS]

01:27:25   happen right but you do need something [TS]

01:27:27   on that middle tier for the people who [TS]

01:27:29   are never going to graduate all apps to [TS]

01:27:30   being a full-fledged programmer and [TS]

01:27:32   using Xcode but they don't need to they [TS]

01:27:34   just need something in the middle that [TS]

01:27:35   can you know they can let them make the [TS]

01:27:39   tools to make their life better even [TS]

01:27:41   though their goal in life is not to be [TS]

01:27:43   an application developer and there never [TS]

01:27:44   need to make something as code and [TS]

01:27:46   submit to the App Store so Apple and [TS]

01:27:49   education bringing back a slight slight [TS]

01:27:52   sidetrack yeah after that that 45 [TS]

01:27:55   minutes I track Oh was that the topic [TS]

01:27:57   believe it or not because then we got it [TS]

01:28:00   just saying how people with ipads irri [TS]

01:28:02   mad at us and we just got buried bag and [TS]

01:28:03   iPads again it's right there all secret [TS]

01:28:05   programmers all right that's right so [TS]

01:28:07   anyway so Apple and education now [TS]

01:28:08   there's new york times article that says [TS]

01:28:09   that while the headline is apples [TS]

01:28:12   devices lose luster in American [TS]

01:28:14   classrooms and I didn't get a chance to [TS]

01:28:16   read the article but my understanding is [TS]

01:28:17   basically that there are fewer devices [TS]

01:28:20   being shipped to schools for from Apple [TS]

01:28:23   it seems like Microsoft is slightly on [TS]

01:28:25   the up in Google thanks to Chromebooks [TS]

01:28:28   are is way on the up which is great I [TS]

01:28:32   guess for Google and kind of a bummer [TS]

01:28:34   for Apple since this used to be their [TS]

01:28:35   stronghold I mean I think I can speak [TS]

01:28:37   for Marco and saying my only exposure to [TS]

01:28:39   a Mac or to an apple too was at school [TS]

01:28:41   like I didn't have any friends that had [TS]

01:28:42   one it was always at school that I was [TS]

01:28:45   exposed to it and that seems to be [TS]

01:28:47   changing how it seems to be all [TS]

01:28:48   Chromebooks but well I don't know my my [TS]

01:28:52   experience was slightly different in [TS]

01:28:53   that my first exposure to Apple [TS]

01:28:56   computers was indeed at school [TS]

01:28:58   it was to the Apple too in the early 90s [TS]

01:29:01   the heyday of the Apple too yeah my [TS]

01:29:04   school was so poor that the only [TS]

01:29:05   computers they could they had were like [TS]

01:29:07   ancient hand-me-down Apple tues most of [TS]

01:29:10   which were not even like you know the [TS]

01:29:12   the later models they were like you know [TS]

01:29:13   the old like you know green and black [TS]

01:29:15   want like you know before color and [TS]

01:29:17   things like memory uh they were it was [TS]

01:29:21   it was a pretty pretty basic but I love [TS]

01:29:24   them because they were the only computer [TS]

01:29:25   had ever used up to that point they were [TS]

01:29:26   amazing even in like nineteen ninety-two [TS]

01:29:29   whenever that was but and then after [TS]

01:29:32   that like wow I a few years later I went [TS]

01:29:35   to a different school and they had just [TS]

01:29:37   pcs because at that point that was like [TS]

01:29:39   that was like 93 ish a 94 and by that [TS]

01:29:43   point like you know max I think we're [TS]

01:29:45   too expensive for most schools at that [TS]

01:29:46   point and I think like most schools [TS]

01:29:49   there was like we had like there was one [TS]

01:29:51   Mac in one of the computer labs that you [TS]

01:29:54   weren't allowed to use unless you were [TS]

01:29:56   in some kind of like graphic design [TS]

01:29:57   class that like they they could use it [TS]

01:29:59   but otherwise it was all pcs for the [TS]

01:30:01   same reason that we're part about to [TS]

01:30:02   talk about which is cost because when [TS]

01:30:04   you're in schools cost is a really [TS]

01:30:06   really big factor so that I mean this [TS]

01:30:10   article the news in this article on the [TS]

01:30:13   graphs in this article it's not a [TS]

01:30:15   surprise to Apple Apple knows all these [TS]

01:30:17   things Apple knows how much it's selling [TS]

01:30:19   apple knows how much is competitors [TS]

01:30:20   selling and the graph they show is only [TS]

01:30:22   from twenty twelve to twenty sixteen so [TS]

01:30:24   it's not a long span but they show [TS]

01:30:25   basically because Google comes out of [TS]

01:30:27   nowhere basically like zero market share [TS]

01:30:29   some time in two thousand ten or eleven [TS]

01:30:30   and flies past both Apple and Microsoft [TS]

01:30:34   or more or less flat flies past them [TS]

01:30:37   around 2014 and now is at like four [TS]

01:30:41   times their sales volume in terms of [TS]

01:30:42   units right so that's in a very short [TS]

01:30:45   period of time Google comes out of [TS]

01:30:47   nowhere and becomes the dominant player [TS]

01:30:48   in the market and the fact that Apple [TS]

01:30:51   knows that this happened because they [TS]

01:30:52   keep track of their own stuff but [TS]

01:30:54   seemingly has not had a strong response [TS]

01:30:58   to it I know we talked about the pro [TS]

01:31:01   market mostly on this program but [TS]

01:31:03   imagine we were you know instead we were [TS]

01:31:07   very interested in the education market [TS]

01:31:08   we would be complaining [TS]

01:31:11   that Apple has faced the strong [TS]

01:31:13   competitor in the form of Google for [TS]

01:31:16   many years now and it's reaction to it [TS]

01:31:18   has been half-hearted features to let [TS]

01:31:21   more than one person use an iPad at the [TS]

01:31:24   same time by logging in and out and [TS]

01:31:25   storing crap on iCloud and some [TS]

01:31:27   improvement and stuff and a bunch of new [TS]

01:31:30   different shapes and sizes of iPads [TS]

01:31:31   which all seem like they're good and [TS]

01:31:34   fine kind of like their efforts to add [TS]

01:31:36   like multitasking stuff the iPad in a [TS]

01:31:37   different realm but if you look at the [TS]

01:31:41   you know has this made them competitive [TS]

01:31:45   again in the education market or schools [TS]

01:31:47   to kick in the bot answer Google still [TS]

01:31:49   kicking about if you measure things in [TS]

01:31:50   terms of unit sales maybe apple doesn't [TS]

01:31:52   measure that maybe I don't care what the [TS]

01:31:53   hell the unit sales are we're making all [TS]

01:31:54   the money we make all the profit that is [TS]

01:31:57   I guess a reasonable place to be in but [TS]

01:31:59   when it comes to education I have to [TS]

01:32:00   think that you shouldn't really view it [TS]

01:32:02   as a profit Center not that you [TS]

01:32:04   shouldn't make money on it but like the [TS]

01:32:06   one of the most important things Apple [TS]

01:32:08   is getting additive is just what Marco [TS]

01:32:09   talked about in case talked about in me [TS]

01:32:11   too like we saw Apple computers in [TS]

01:32:14   school and it doesn't mean that we're [TS]

01:32:15   going to grow up to only use Apple [TS]

01:32:16   computers but it sure as hell doesn't [TS]

01:32:18   hurt being familiar with them getting [TS]

01:32:21   comfortable with them conceptualising [TS]

01:32:24   computers in terms of what is presented [TS]

01:32:26   to you like this is what a computer is [TS]

01:32:28   so you know these multiple generations [TS]

01:32:31   of students who are growing up using [TS]

01:32:33   google docs in school and using [TS]

01:32:35   Chromebooks maybe they're conceptualized [TS]

01:32:38   Chromebooks as the equivalent of the [TS]

01:32:39   crappy Apple tues that are crappy [TS]

01:32:41   computers they would never buy for [TS]

01:32:42   themselves that are pieces a junk that [TS]

01:32:43   are managed by the school and they have [TS]

01:32:45   to use her schoolwork but they are [TS]

01:32:47   becoming familiar with Google Docs and [TS]

01:32:48   they are associating Google with [TS]

01:32:50   computing in a way that there used to be [TS]

01:32:53   associating apple with computing you [TS]

01:32:55   know so there are pluses and minuses to [TS]

01:32:56   being stigmatized as the computer I had [TS]

01:32:57   to use in school but I think if Apple [TS]

01:33:02   again if Apple cares about the education [TS]

01:33:03   market at all it should not be happy to [TS]

01:33:06   have its unit sales be flat over the [TS]

01:33:09   course the same course of time where a [TS]

01:33:11   competitor comes from zero to squash [TS]

01:33:13   them by factor of four like I don't [TS]

01:33:15   think that's a good position to be in [TS]

01:33:17   the market now maybe apple doesn't care [TS]

01:33:19   and they're willing to just let that [TS]

01:33:21   ride but how many markets are we going [TS]

01:33:22   to look at and say Apple doesn't really [TS]

01:33:24   care that much [TS]

01:33:25   not a big deal like what does Apple [TS]

01:33:26   really care but it's is just phones [TS]

01:33:27   because even in the phone market they're [TS]

01:33:29   still making all the money and sell lots [TS]

01:33:32   of phones I think doing a great job with [TS]

01:33:34   their phone hardware but they're also [TS]

01:33:36   getting a butt-kicking unit sales there [TS]

01:33:37   you know by an increasing percentage by [TS]

01:33:40   this larger more open platform so I [TS]

01:33:42   don't know what to think Apple stock is [TS]

01:33:44   way up the iphone is awesome everybody [TS]

01:33:46   loves it I love it but when I look at [TS]

01:33:48   education of the program are kits maybe [TS]

01:33:50   it's just a salad for the Apple that [TS]

01:33:51   used to be but boy things are sure [TS]

01:33:53   changed I feel like both education and [TS]

01:33:57   the pro markets are places that you go [TS]

01:34:00   when you when you don't have the [TS]

01:34:02   consumer market they're kind of their [TS]

01:34:03   these nice like holdouts that if you can [TS]

01:34:06   if you can get market share their you [TS]

01:34:08   can have a reasonably sustainable [TS]

01:34:10   business even if you you have lost or [TS]

01:34:13   you never even gain ground in the [TS]

01:34:15   consumer market and so when Apple was [TS]

01:34:18   doing poorly in like the 90s and stuff [TS]

01:34:20   they were they retreated to those [TS]

01:34:22   markets because with the education you [TS]

01:34:24   know and pros just like there's like [TS]

01:34:26   there's special needs and you can deploy [TS]

01:34:29   a sales force tactically to like you [TS]

01:34:33   need a you know a relatively small [TS]

01:34:35   number of very big sales to succeed in [TS]

01:34:38   these markets and that's not necessarily [TS]

01:34:40   easy to get but that's easier than [TS]

01:34:42   convincing the entire consumer shopping [TS]

01:34:45   public to buy your stuff if they aren't [TS]

01:34:47   already interested in it you know and so [TS]

01:34:49   you know Apple I feel like Apple went [TS]

01:34:52   these markets not because they thought [TS]

01:34:55   they were especially important [TS]

01:34:57   necessarily for things like you know [TS]

01:34:58   your kids are going to use it what they [TS]

01:35:00   are familiar with but because they were [TS]

01:35:02   the only ones willing to buy apple stuff [TS]

01:35:04   for a long time and now that that's no [TS]

01:35:06   longer the case Apple is seemingly being [TS]

01:35:10   more managed by numbers these days which [TS]

01:35:12   is unfortunate if that's true but that [TS]

01:35:15   is for how it looks and these days it [TS]

01:35:18   you know because they are popular with [TS]

01:35:21   consumers by so much that they that they [TS]

01:35:25   can kind of afford to throw away less [TS]

01:35:27   profitable market segments that is [TS]

01:35:30   basically what they appear to be doing [TS]

01:35:31   regardless of whatever Tim Cook's vague [TS]

01:35:33   statement of the week is about how much [TS]

01:35:35   they still care about us the reality is [TS]

01:35:37   that school [TS]

01:35:38   rules are especially these days pretty [TS]

01:35:41   hard to make money i mean again like [TS]

01:35:42   apples heyday in schools back like in [TS]

01:35:45   like the late 90s and stuff that was [TS]

01:35:47   also at a time or you know early min-soo [TS]

01:35:49   that was also a time when technology was [TS]

01:35:52   new and novel and schools were getting [TS]

01:35:55   all sorts of these funding grants for [TS]

01:35:58   going and getting computers you know and [TS]

01:36:00   granted not every school but there was a [TS]

01:36:02   lot of like other people's money being [TS]

01:36:04   poured into like we need to get our kids [TS]

01:36:06   and technology and it was i feel like it [TS]

01:36:08   was probably easier to sell into that [TS]

01:36:10   environment than it is now that [TS]

01:36:12   computers are no longer new and cool now [TS]

01:36:14   it's just a budget item and now it's [TS]

01:36:16   down to okay we really need things to be [TS]

01:36:18   cheap and whatever's cheapest and [TS]

01:36:19   easiest for us to manage and and again [TS]

01:36:22   cheapest that's what we're going to go [TS]

01:36:24   with and so i basically i feel like the [TS]

01:36:28   conditions are very different now that [TS]

01:36:30   both Apple needs education and prose [TS]

01:36:34   less than they used to and also in the [TS]

01:36:37   case of the education market the [TS]

01:36:39   education market at market I think now [TS]

01:36:40   is significantly more price driven it [TS]

01:36:43   specifically with regard to computers [TS]

01:36:45   than it was 20 years ago you know back [TS]

01:36:48   when went these things were new and they [TS]

01:36:50   were always great money coming in i [TS]

01:36:51   think it was always it was always tight [TS]

01:36:53   for schools i don't think it's that much [TS]

01:36:54   of a difference like I I would probably [TS]

01:36:57   agree that schools or not as well funded [TS]

01:36:58   as they used to be but I would disagree [TS]

01:37:01   that price consciousness is a new [TS]

01:37:03   phenomenon when it comes to computers in [TS]

01:37:05   schools well and again that was also [TS]

01:37:07   back back in the 90s to I I feel like [TS]

01:37:09   the the difference in price was not as [TS]

01:37:11   big like you know these days I'm these [TS]

01:37:13   you're killing me these days like the [TS]

01:37:17   difference in price between a Chromebook [TS]

01:37:19   and a macbook pro or any or macbook air [TS]

01:37:22   it's like four times like that's what [TS]

01:37:24   that's a massive multiplier you can [TS]

01:37:26   literally get like depending on the [TS]

01:37:28   model of mac that you select you can get [TS]

01:37:30   like four to eight Chromebooks for the [TS]

01:37:33   same price and it was worse when your [TS]

01:37:36   choice was a Macintosh seƱor an IBM PC [TS]

01:37:39   believe me or a PC PC clone gateway 2000 [TS]

01:37:41   or Mac se gateway 2000 or Mac to see I [TS]

01:37:44   it was it was worse real it was more [TS]

01:37:48   than like a four to 5x multiplier on the [TS]

01:37:50   price [TS]

01:37:51   terrible and the numbers were all bigger [TS]

01:37:53   right did you remember how much I don't [TS]

01:37:54   know if you remember how much max used [TS]

01:37:55   to do you remember how much my Macintosh [TS]

01:37:57   chassis cost I wasn't there when you [TS]

01:37:59   bought it no but I I but like I'm like [TS]

01:38:02   that you like in the 90s a decent pc was [TS]

01:38:04   about 2,000 bucks all right so I'm gonna [TS]

01:38:07   do the calculation here I don't know we [TS]

01:38:10   spent like three or four thousand [TS]

01:38:12   dollars at least I thought on my beloved [TS]

01:38:14   pentium pro 100 megahertz mean it was a [TS]

01:38:17   lot of money that's not to say that all [TS]

01:38:21   of them were necessarily that much money [TS]

01:38:22   cuz that was pretty cutting edge at the [TS]

01:38:23   time and you know it was dad that was [TS]

01:38:25   buying it for himself and I just never [TS]

01:38:26   let him use it because I'm a jerk but [TS]

01:38:28   that thing was not cheap yeah well but [TS]

01:38:31   and you know and schools wouldn't buy [TS]

01:38:33   the high-end ones usually you know [TS]

01:38:34   school or they did have to be conscious [TS]

01:38:36   of the budget of course but basically my [TS]

01:38:39   theory is basically that like that not [TS]

01:38:42   only was the money a little bit easier [TS]

01:38:43   to justify spending computer if I think [TS]

01:38:45   they were so new and everyone wanted to [TS]

01:38:47   get their kids computers but also that [TS]

01:38:49   you know now the price differences is so [TS]

01:38:52   vast between them and I don't think it [TS]

01:38:55   was as vast back there it was for max [TS]

01:38:57   was mostly because max were so much more [TS]

01:38:58   expensive so the educational discount [TS]

01:39:00   the college educational discount from [TS]

01:39:02   iMac ac30 which again is not a color [TS]

01:39:04   matte color max were available but this [TS]

01:39:06   was not a color matte because a [TS]

01:39:07   monochrome macintosh but was it still a [TS]

01:39:10   high-end configuration it was more high [TS]

01:39:13   end than the SEO or the plus which were [TS]

01:39:15   still for sale but still not like not [TS]

01:39:17   color which again was a big thing in [TS]

01:39:18   schools right which is a reason they [TS]

01:39:20   would buy a color pc right so 1990 ish [TS]

01:39:22   four thousand three hundred dollars in [TS]

01:39:24   nineteen eighty nine dollars or nineteen [TS]

01:39:26   ninety dollars that if we converted to [TS]

01:39:29   current dollars that's eight thousand [TS]

01:39:30   six hundred dollars for a monitor pewter [TS]

01:39:32   no keyboard no keyboard the keyboard was [TS]

01:39:34   189 and nineteen eighty nine dollars you [TS]

01:39:36   had to compare the eight thousand six [TS]

01:39:38   hundred dollars for one monochrome [TS]

01:39:40   macintosh like the little you know the [TS]

01:39:42   little you know I kind of like vertical [TS]

01:39:44   natchitoches thing you could get a [TS]

01:39:46   gateway computer for less than two [TS]

01:39:49   thousand dollars in 1989 money the price [TS]

01:39:53   difference was just as big if not bigger [TS]

01:39:56   especially because schools need it to [TS]

01:39:58   have color that's why they all had apple [TS]

01:40:00   two gs is in them because the Appleton [TS]

01:40:01   jess is per color nobody but you just [TS]

01:40:03   you just proved my pool [TS]

01:40:05   your your priced multiplier was like 2x [TS]

01:40:07   and I would also say that that the gate [TS]

01:40:09   would like to get a like a a mid SPECT [TS]

01:40:12   gateway like that gateway is color [TS]

01:40:14   though with a big color monitor if I go [TS]

01:40:15   if I go with like the mac to with a big [TS]

01:40:17   color monitor it's not for under two [TS]

01:40:19   thousand dollars in 1990 if that's a mid [TS]

01:40:21   spec machine it's going to be a little [TS]

01:40:22   over 2,000 so you're basically you're [TS]

01:40:24   roughly a 2x multiplier which is very [TS]

01:40:26   different from a 5x multiplier which is [TS]

01:40:29   basically we have today I don't we don't [TS]

01:40:31   have exactly a 5x multiplier now because [TS]

01:40:33   they get educational discount on these [TS]

01:40:34   things and don't buy the top dollar [TS]

01:40:35   macbook so i think that i'm talking like [TS]

01:40:37   250 bucks vs. like 1200 you're not [TS]

01:40:41   paying 1200 dots for and they're also [TS]

01:40:42   not paying 200 videos for other things I [TS]

01:40:45   call told but anyway if I was go to like [TS]

01:40:48   the mac to FX like a high-end computer [TS]

01:40:49   that actually had color which against [TS]

01:40:51   schools wanted cause it gets way way [TS]

01:40:52   worse much faster like if you add a [TS]

01:40:54   monitor just adding that the cost of the [TS]

01:40:55   monitor to the thing because you just [TS]

01:40:56   buying the mac but that doesn't come [TS]

01:40:57   with the monitor and it doesn't come [TS]

01:40:58   with a keyboard the multiplier was worse [TS]

01:41:00   for mac vs pc than it is for chromebook [TS]

01:41:02   vs ipad which is the real comparison you [TS]

01:41:04   should be doing that chromebook vs [TS]

01:41:05   macbook pro or something no but I well I [TS]

01:41:08   think that's the comparison Apple wants [TS]

01:41:09   people to do i I think Apple wants to [TS]

01:41:11   present the iPad as the competitor for [TS]

01:41:14   the Chromebook but in practice I don't [TS]

01:41:15   think it is I think those are separate [TS]

01:41:16   things it seems like schools have a [TS]

01:41:19   pretty substantial need for laptop [TS]

01:41:22   shaped things well you know whatever [TS]

01:41:24   form that takes it does seem like you [TS]

01:41:26   know obviously they do sell a lot of [TS]

01:41:27   iPads in education but that seems like [TS]

01:41:30   it's almost a separate thing like it i [TS]

01:41:32   think the the laptop form factor is has [TS]

01:41:36   proven to be more popular in recent [TS]

01:41:38   years then then tablets and schools and [TS]

01:41:41   in that form factor I mean that's I [TS]

01:41:44   think that's one of the biggest reasons [TS]

01:41:45   why the macbook air still exists it you [TS]

01:41:47   know if you look at at Apple's average [TS]

01:41:50   selling price of the Mac it's basically [TS]

01:41:53   the macbook air like by a long shot it's [TS]

01:41:56   it seems very obvious that they sell [TS]

01:41:57   like crate foals of macbook airs like [TS]

01:42:00   biggest ridiculous number of them but [TS]

01:42:04   that that really is like I think most [TS]

01:42:07   markets who were buying Chromebooks as [TS]

01:42:09   an alternative its alternative to [TS]

01:42:11   MacBook Airs not to iPads most of the [TS]

01:42:15   time [TS]

01:42:16   I'm plugging at the non-education [TS]

01:42:17   discounters of the non education [TS]

01:42:19   discount for the maggots he said it was [TS]

01:42:20   four thousand dollars but no hard drive [TS]

01:42:21   no hard drive for the 4500 dollar model [TS]

01:42:24   wouldn't have liked magneto-optical or [TS]

01:42:28   just fly so so the non educational [TS]

01:42:30   discount for the good for the good su-30 [TS]

01:42:32   that had an 80 megabyte hard drive in [TS]

01:42:34   for megs of ram 6,500 dollars in 1989 [TS]

01:42:37   money wow that's pretty bad that's what [TS]

01:42:39   that's why that's the one with the good [TS]

01:42:41   amount of RAM and the big hard drive [TS]

01:42:42   let's see what that one is thirteen [TS]

01:42:45   thousand dollars alright so now we're [TS]

01:42:46   getting into the modern Ulta for still [TS]

01:42:48   still no keyboard still no keyboard [TS]

01:42:50   right that's next two hundred bucks yeah [TS]

01:42:53   how much was a civic in 89 or whatever [TS]

01:42:57   year we're talking about here I gotta [TS]

01:42:59   think it was a less that are around [TS]

01:43:01   13,000 or less than that yep they were [TS]

01:43:02   they were trying it seems like it would [TS]

01:43:04   be ridiculously it's only ridiculously [TS]

01:43:07   expensive when you convert for old [TS]

01:43:08   people it's only directions when you [TS]

01:43:09   convert to today's dollars because back [TS]

01:43:12   then like you know it was the old adage [TS]

01:43:13   from like whatever there wasn't a PC [TS]

01:43:16   Magazine the computer he was always five [TS]

01:43:17   thousand dollars and that remained true [TS]

01:43:19   but that remained true as the decades [TS]

01:43:21   passed and like you know inflation [TS]

01:43:23   happened right so it was always five [TS]

01:43:24   that in 1981 that the computer you [TS]

01:43:26   wanted was five thousand dollars and [TS]

01:43:27   2010 the computer maybe if your computer [TS]

01:43:30   that you wanted was five thousand [TS]

01:43:31   dollars but that five thousand dollars [TS]

01:43:33   was worth a lot a lot more in 1981 that [TS]

01:43:36   it wasn't 2010 right so it was a car [TS]

01:43:39   yeah but anyway max were astronomically [TS]

01:43:43   expensive I was always amazed when I saw [TS]

01:43:45   them in schools it's because apple gave [TS]

01:43:46   deep discounts and you know so that [TS]

01:43:48   forty three hundred dollars for it was [TS]

01:43:49   mine had a hard drive the 4300 dollars [TS]

01:43:51   for the good as he 30 was an amazing [TS]

01:43:53   bargain but nevertheless a tremendous [TS]

01:43:56   cost and and I and my kids schools these [TS]

01:43:58   days I see a surprising amount of [TS]

01:44:01   desktop max still like their old imax [TS]

01:44:03   right and then you see carts full of [TS]

01:44:05   laptop which are like ice books right [TS]

01:44:06   because that's around the area when they [TS]

01:44:08   bought these things the reason [TS]

01:44:10   everything you said about apples like [TS]

01:44:12   when you have to consumer market who [TS]

01:44:13   cares about these things that's all true [TS]

01:44:14   except the Apple Apple image of [TS]

01:44:17   themselves and the image of themselves [TS]

01:44:18   they project to the world still seems to [TS]

01:44:21   include a lot of stuff having to do with [TS]

01:44:22   education that's what they lean on that [TS]

01:44:24   much but I think they like the idea of [TS]

01:44:26   showing students using these devices and [TS]

01:44:28   a lot of even a lot of their advertising [TS]

01:44:30   for their modern hardware granted there [TS]

01:44:31   may be picture like college students or [TS]

01:44:32   whatever but I think the company always [TS]

01:44:35   presents the use of its products in [TS]

01:44:37   education as something that they are [TS]

01:44:39   proud of and that that could just be [TS]

01:44:41   marketing though you know like like I [TS]

01:44:43   mean they're also very proud of people [TS]

01:44:44   who can draw on an iPad and skin call [TS]

01:44:46   that a creative pro but that that [TS]

01:44:48   doesn't mean that they actually have [TS]

01:44:49   interested in addressing more of the pro [TS]

01:44:51   market but it means that they're not it [TS]

01:44:54   brought a says to me is they have not [TS]

01:44:55   given up or are not abandoning that [TS]

01:44:57   market they're just not competing that [TS]

01:45:00   well in it and maybe that's okay maybe [TS]

01:45:02   you just have a reasonable participation [TS]

01:45:05   and don't really worry that like some [TS]

01:45:06   cheap vendor is coming in and and swamp [TS]

01:45:08   new in unit sales because you're still [TS]

01:45:10   player in the market like you're solidly [TS]

01:45:12   second or third place among three [TS]

01:45:14   players even though someone else is [TS]

01:45:16   selling for X as many things as you are [TS]

01:45:17   into the market so maybe that's maybe [TS]

01:45:19   the time with them maybe they feel like [TS]

01:45:21   they have the high end of the market [TS]

01:45:22   they're getting all the profits yada [TS]

01:45:23   yada yada but i don't it doesn't seem [TS]

01:45:25   like they're abandoning it whereas i see [TS]

01:45:27   fewer and fewer instances where they're [TS]

01:45:29   showing somebody doing pro work on pro [TS]

01:45:32   hardware because you know what would [TS]

01:45:35   they even show them doing i guess i can [TS]

01:45:36   show them using final cut and well they [TS]

01:45:39   have them shown that they show them [TS]

01:45:40   using final cut with a touch bar macbook [TS]

01:45:42   pro with these two giant LG monitors [TS]

01:45:44   behind that they didn't do that but it's [TS]

01:45:46   I mean like even this far you know a [TS]

01:45:49   recent history the trash can that their [TS]

01:45:51   big demo wwc was to have people from [TS]

01:45:54   Pixar using the trash can to do you know [TS]

01:45:56   heavyweight stuff that basically like [TS]

01:45:58   other computers can't handle this [TS]

01:46:00   because it's just too much too much [TS]

01:46:01   memory it's too much cpu that was a long [TS]

01:46:03   time look at how this fancy new computer [TS]

01:46:05   handles this that you know that was that [TS]

01:46:08   was their demo of like this is pro [TS]

01:46:10   hardware for pros yada yada and i [TS]

01:46:12   haven't seen a demo like that since i [TS]

01:46:14   haven't seen an ad like that since from [TS]

01:46:15   Apple you're right it's been more about [TS]

01:46:16   like look this amazing laptop you can [TS]

01:46:18   edit 4k video on this laptop isn't that [TS]

01:46:20   great that's great and all but if your [TS]

01:46:22   laptop is never going to leave your desk [TS]

01:46:23   like is that the best choice for your [TS]

01:46:24   editing Bay or whatever like a laptop [TS]

01:46:26   maybe maybe it is maybe that's apples in [TS]

01:46:28   the computer but it's that it's a far [TS]

01:46:30   cry from look let's sling around multi [TS]

01:46:33   gigabyte textures and paint on these [TS]

01:46:34   models in real time you know but the [TS]

01:46:37   pics are employees doing that demo w say [TS]

01:46:39   so I think my main skepticism here is [TS]

01:46:41   like I don't think there [TS]

01:46:43   the strong correlation anymore between [TS]

01:46:45   the way Apple presents itself and its [TS]

01:46:48   products in the marketing events and [TS]

01:46:50   videos and commercials and what they [TS]

01:46:52   actually make like it I agree with you [TS]

01:46:54   that they do present themselves as being [TS]

01:46:56   you know as really being you know [TS]

01:46:59   prioritizing education and and creative [TS]

01:47:02   people and things that it makes it for a [TS]

01:47:04   great video makes for very commercial [TS]

01:47:06   makes for great statements and I'm sure [TS]

01:47:07   that a lot of these I could actually [TS]

01:47:08   believe that themselves is sincerely [TS]

01:47:10   believe that but i think the actions and [TS]

01:47:12   the results of the company say otherwise [TS]

01:47:13   they really do say that you know that [TS]

01:47:16   they are totally fine pricing themselves [TS]

01:47:19   out of education to a large degree and [TS]

01:47:21   ignoring actual pro demands when they [TS]

01:47:26   don't line up with what Apple wants to [TS]

01:47:27   do for the consumer market it's what do [TS]

01:47:29   you bring up the trashcan Mac because [TS]

01:47:31   just today one appeared at my desk not [TS]

01:47:36   for me to use but just to share and it [TS]

01:47:39   turned out we had just bought it just in [TS]

01:47:41   the last week or two because we have a [TS]

01:47:43   we have a guy on staff who's a video [TS]

01:47:46   editor and apparently the dual GPUs were [TS]

01:47:50   enough to sway the IT folks to get the [TS]

01:47:53   trashcan rather than just an imac 5k did [TS]

01:47:56   they do any research on when the new [TS]

01:47:58   iPhone comes out be sure be sure to show [TS]

01:48:00   them your your geekbench score on your [TS]

01:48:02   new iphone 8 is is higher in single core [TS]

01:48:04   than I know I wasn't involved in any of [TS]

01:48:08   this you know I they just showed up all [TS]

01:48:10   of a sudden but I thought you two would [TS]

01:48:11   be amused we bought we bought a trash [TS]

01:48:14   can within the last week or two that's [TS]

01:48:16   so sad sorry oh I can't I can't take it [TS]

01:48:20   anymore just please Apple please fix [TS]

01:48:23   this I mean the last thing that I want [TS]

01:48:26   in the entire freaking world is a new [TS]

01:48:29   mac pro because I I might as well just [TS]

01:48:31   retire from the show for like a month no [TS]

01:48:33   because that's gonna be nonstop if they [TS]

01:48:35   keep not making one we're gonna keep [TS]

01:48:36   talking about it if they release a new [TS]

01:48:38   one then we'll talk about it for like [TS]

01:48:40   two weeks and then you want to hear [TS]

01:48:42   about it for like a year and a half [TS]

01:48:43   until we start worrying that they're [TS]

01:48:44   never gonna make another one again [TS]

01:48:45   exactly which will be about four weeks [TS]

01:48:48   but know what I was going to say was [TS]

01:48:51   i did i do not want to talk about it for [TS]

01:48:54   another you know four weeks if they do [TS]

01:48:56   finally announce one or god forbid they [TS]

01:48:58   announce one that is called a mac pro [TS]

01:49:02   but is in reality just a imac 5k + + the [TS]

01:49:06   last thing I want is for that to happen [TS]

01:49:07   so I have to hear you to you know go on [TS]

01:49:10   and on and about it forever but even I [TS]

01:49:12   am at the point that I might come on [TS]

01:49:14   Apple really really this is still a [TS]

01:49:17   thing come on you're better than this [TS]

01:49:19   thanks for three sponsors this week away [TS]

01:49:23   Squarespace and Pingdom we will see you [TS]

01:49:25   next week now the show is over they [TS]

01:49:31   didn't even mean to begin cuz it was [TS]

01:49:34   accidental oh it was accidental John did [TS]

01:49:40   Tony research Marco and Casey wouldn't [TS]

01:49:44   cuz it was accidentally it was [TS]

01:49:48   accidental but you can find the show [TS]

01:49:52   notes at ATP FM and if for into twitter [TS]

01:49:57   you can follow them at cas eyl ISS so [TS]

01:50:04   that's Casey Liz ma our CEO a RM can t [TS]

01:50:09   marco arment SI are they see us a [TS]

01:50:14   syracuse [TS]

01:50:22   you know I was speaking of another [TS]

01:50:30   yardstick to seeing how into education [TS]

01:50:33   Apple is not that I'm saying this is the [TS]

01:50:34   best idea in the world but a thing they [TS]

01:50:36   used to do is these to make special [TS]

01:50:38   computers for education you back there [TS]

01:50:41   were aspect they were designed and SPECT [TS]

01:50:43   in price differently sometimes regular [TS]

01:50:45   people couldn't even buy them sometimes [TS]

01:50:47   regular people wouldn't want to buy them [TS]

01:50:48   you know but they as a means of [TS]

01:50:51   competing in what has always been a very [TS]

01:50:53   price sensitive market they were like we [TS]

01:50:55   we need to be able to sell into [TS]

01:50:57   education none of our existing [TS]

01:50:59   eventually they learned like none of [TS]

01:51:00   their existing periods especially back [TS]

01:51:01   in the day when every computer the apple [TS]

01:51:03   made was better than better and more [TS]

01:51:05   expensive than all the other ones they [TS]

01:51:07   made special versions of computers and [TS]

01:51:09   special entire computers just for [TS]

01:51:12   education to suit education needs [TS]

01:51:15   whatever those may be that showed I [TS]

01:51:18   think a more serious dedication to the [TS]

01:51:20   education market again whether that was [TS]

01:51:21   the best idea to make me special modders [TS]

01:51:22   but or they should have just changed [TS]

01:51:24   that other models they were suitable for [TS]

01:51:25   education or whatever that's farther [TS]

01:51:28   than today's Apple seems willing to go [TS]

01:51:29   and on the flip side I think I don't [TS]

01:51:32   know if this is in this new york times [TS]

01:51:32   article but I've seen it bounced around [TS]

01:51:34   maybe Gruber talked about it but Apple [TS]

01:51:36   is doing much better in IT recently [TS]

01:51:37   mostly because that I think the the cold [TS]

01:51:40   war against max in in corporate [TS]

01:51:42   environments has thought over the past I [TS]

01:51:45   would say decade or so used to be like [TS]

01:51:47   you're not anything allowed to bring [TS]

01:51:49   your Macintosh from home and connected [TS]

01:51:51   to my network because I'm the evil [TS]

01:51:52   corporate IT guy and the whole world's [TS]

01:51:54   gonna end if you do that right to today [TS]

01:51:56   where I think most people joining a [TS]

01:52:00   company have some expectations there's a [TS]

01:52:02   chance that they will either get to [TS]

01:52:05   choose between a mac and a Windows PC or [TS]

01:52:07   just everybody's using Mac's depending [TS]

01:52:09   on the company I mean look at IBM [TS]

01:52:12   they've got thousands of them right who [TS]

01:52:14   would have thunk good right and the max [TS]

01:52:17   integrate better and enterprise [TS]

01:52:18   environment that's because of efforts [TS]

01:52:19   Apple has made both iOS devices and max [TS]

01:52:22   integrate better into enterprise [TS]

01:52:23   environments because Apple has changed [TS]

01:52:24   their software in ways that enterprise [TS]

01:52:26   people wanted to make it more of a [TS]

01:52:28   remotely manageable to have it be [TS]

01:52:29   compatible with various protocols it's [TS]

01:52:31   been slow and it hasn't been that [TS]

01:52:33   matic but the series of things that [TS]

01:52:34   they've done have made max way more [TS]

01:52:37   viable and enterprise than they used to [TS]

01:52:39   be despite the fact they're still pretty [TS]

01:52:41   much Enterprise unfriendly in terms of [TS]

01:52:43   like how Dell will service and replace [TS]

01:52:45   your things versus how Apple will do it [TS]

01:52:47   and stuff like it like they still have a [TS]

01:52:48   long way to go and it's interesting that [TS]

01:52:50   they're sort of the same kind of Magnus [TS]

01:52:52   I have harder but the same kind of apple [TS]

01:52:54   style approach where we'll make some [TS]

01:52:56   changes in your behalf but we're not [TS]

01:52:58   going to compromise our core beliefs [TS]

01:52:59   about what a computer should be and how [TS]

01:53:00   our business should run and so on and so [TS]

01:53:02   forth has yielded dividends in [TS]

01:53:05   enterprise probably because there is no [TS]

01:53:06   equivalent to Google coming from nowhere [TS]

01:53:08   and taking over the enterprise they're [TS]

01:53:09   basically just slowly trading market [TS]

01:53:11   share with Microsoft and other Windows [TS]

01:53:13   PC type things whereas an education [TS]

01:53:16   they've been doing things as well to try [TS]

01:53:18   to make their iOS devices and Max better [TS]

01:53:20   for education over the years but their [TS]

01:53:23   their pace of innovation there has been [TS]

01:53:25   swamped by Google coming out with a [TS]

01:53:28   product that is cheap easy to manage [TS]

01:53:31   people like to use it removes a lot of [TS]

01:53:33   pain points that people have been [TS]

01:53:34   experiencing because the Chromebook as [TS]

01:53:36   we discussed before is not just like a [TS]

01:53:38   slightly better or cheaper laptop it's [TS]

01:53:40   not a netbook right the advantage they [TS]

01:53:43   have is that is a different computing [TS]

01:53:44   paradigm with the you know things on the [TS]

01:53:46   web right and that hold that that whole [TS]

01:53:49   thing if I've heard them referred to as [TS]

01:53:50   dumb terminals but I think that's a [TS]

01:53:51   that's a pejorative there they're not [TS]

01:53:54   dumb and they're not terminals it is [TS]

01:53:55   merely a computer using local hardware [TS]

01:53:58   to run applications and then using the [TS]

01:54:01   network for state preservation and it's [TS]

01:54:04   a great solution and it's easier for [TS]

01:54:05   people to manage then installing [TS]

01:54:07   software and all that other stuff and [TS]

01:54:09   that's that I think is why they're [TS]

01:54:11   winning not just because of price [TS]

01:54:13   because they could surely get trashed [TS]

01:54:15   you know Windows PCs for something close [TS]

01:54:17   to that price but a crappy Windows PC is [TS]

01:54:20   not as easy to manage as the fleet of [TS]

01:54:22   Chromebooks all right so I think you [TS]

01:54:25   know there is no equivalent to that an [TS]

01:54:27   enterprise there is no competitive [TS]

01:54:28   enterprise that is making things ten [TS]

01:54:31   times easier let's say for enterprise IT [TS]

01:54:33   then Apple or Microsoft or dell or [TS]

01:54:37   whatever whereas there was in education [TS]

01:54:39   so I rather than framing this as a [TS]

01:54:41   failing of Apple I think it's more fair [TS]

01:54:43   to frame it as a success for google [TS]

01:54:46   give Google credit for finding one [TS]

01:54:48   environment into which it can sell its [TS]

01:54:50   hardware that apparently loves it is not [TS]

01:54:53   the consumer realm they just did and [TS]

01:54:54   they just canceled the Chromebook pixels [TS]

01:54:56   that I'm making them yeah yeah yeahs [TS]

01:54:58   consumers not so much but schools [TS]

01:55:00   schools love it and you know kudos to [TS]

01:55:02   Google Apple could have done better yes [TS]

01:55:05   buts and so could a Microsoft but bottom [TS]

01:55:07   line is google made a product that [TS]

01:55:09   education loves John how much did you [TS]

01:55:11   say your 1989 Mac was eight grand in [TS]

01:55:14   today's money no no in that money it was [TS]

01:55:18   four thousand three hundred dollars plus [TS]

01:55:19   the keyboard so you would need another [TS]

01:55:22   half of a Mac to get a three-door honda [TS]

01:55:24   civic hatchback for speed which was 6385 [TS]

01:55:27   dollars almost John almost [TS]