0:00:00that's didn't see I didn't see you out
0:00:01there swimming in the waves in fact I've
0:00:04never seen you swimming in them you got
0:00:05a there's a reason for that that's the
0:00:07next level of your Beach education
0:00:08learning how to swim in the ocean yeah
0:00:10that's that's unlikely because the ocean
0:00:12is full of things that eat you and stuff
0:00:13and that's I'm not gonna eat you it's
0:00:15fine you see all the people playing they
0:00:17live they go back to their homes it's
0:00:19fine most of them yeah every day every
0:00:22day have this the jellyfish are just
0:00:25taking people so we haven't spoken to
0:00:29each other in like a week and a half two
0:00:31weeks something like that but we are
0:00:33back together again back in the normal
0:00:34schedule we'll be back in the normal
0:00:36schedule as far as we know for at least
0:00:37a little while probably until the
0:00:39holidays start picking up and you know
0:00:41if things are gonna go back to normal we
0:00:43have to do what we always do and that is
0:00:45your favorite segment and mine and
0:00:48especially Jones asked ATP yeah that's
0:00:50it no it's follow-up so we are starting
0:00:53with the streaming music iPod shuffle
0:00:56like thing which is apparently something
0:00:59that uh that Spotify I don't know if
0:01:02it's for is it first party I don't know
0:01:04anyway it's a thing that's for Spotify
0:01:06that's called mighty which is a peculiar
0:01:09name that is basically an iPod shuffle
0:01:11but for Spotify
0:01:12from what I've gathered so John can you
0:01:14tell me a little more about this
0:01:15everybody sent us links to this thing
0:01:18and eventually The Verge picked it up to
0:01:20is that's what we'll link in the show
0:01:21notes because we're talking about a
0:01:25place in the market for something like
0:01:27an iPod shuffle but this doesn't really
0:01:30qualify because first of all it's not 50
0:01:31bucks is 85 second it does not have cell
0:01:35data access you'd only has Wi-Fi and
0:01:37Bluetooth so you know we're saying less
0:01:39show was the last show maybe a show
0:01:41before that you know eventually you'll
0:01:43be able to make one of these fifty bucks
0:01:45that can just stream music we're not
0:01:47there yet but this one definitely looks
0:01:49like doesn't look like an iPod shuffle
0:01:51looks like a fisher-price versa it's
0:01:56probably better this is the thing that
0:01:57was annoying about the shuffle is that
0:01:58it's so minimal and you needed to like
0:02:01feel your hand on it to do like volume
0:02:04up or down or next previous track right
0:02:06you could find the middle button pretty
0:02:07well but because it was a circle trying
0:02:09to make sure that you're hitting up on
0:02:12the circle and
0:02:13instead of right or left which can be
0:02:15very bad if you're in the middle of a
0:02:17podcast especially before they got the
0:02:18software updated or for your track on
0:02:20her it wasn't marked as a podcast and
0:02:22iTunes and it was just a song and you
0:02:23hit the button and just lose your place
0:02:25entirely you couldn't feel with your
0:02:27finger what what is up and what is down
0:02:29this was a little bit better because the
0:02:31center thing is a square so you could
0:02:32feel the flat edge anyway it's just
0:02:36another coincidence of a product that is
0:02:39kind of like what we're talking about
0:02:40but not really like it so well come back
0:02:42in ten years Marco tell me that audio
0:02:47bit depth because apparently we got that
0:02:49ever so slightly wrong well I wouldn't
0:02:52say that
0:02:54so last show we had some discussion
0:02:56about whether Apple should or ever will
0:02:59sell higher resolution music you know so
0:03:02it was like the audiophile world loves
0:03:03high bitrate high sample rate music like
0:03:0624 192 and stuff like that
0:03:08so a may have Mottram writes in to say
0:03:10well I understand how resolution audio
0:03:12isn't for everybody I was disappointed
0:03:13that you guys get the basic terminology
0:03:14wrong given the technical bias either
0:03:16show an audience a follow-up item
0:03:18addressing the difference between bit
0:03:19depth and bitrate would be appreciated
0:03:21so basically so bitrate is how many bits
0:03:26a an encoding scheme is using you know
0:03:30usually per second to encode the total
0:03:32music so in a lossy scheme this
0:03:34basically like mp3 they would be like
0:03:36128 kilobits per second and that is just
0:03:39like the quality level of the music that
0:03:40you're getting it's it's how many bits
0:03:42it will allocate to representing it and
0:03:44usually the more bits you allocate to it
0:03:46the higher quality you can achieve and
0:03:47the less you have to throw away bit
0:03:49depth is basically talking about how
0:03:52precise the samples are everybody can
0:03:55kind of picture what a wave looks like
0:03:57you know that's how sound waves come in
0:03:59and represented in the uncompressed form
0:04:00this actually doesn't apply to things
0:04:02like mp3 quite the same way because the
0:04:05way the senator is represented is
0:04:07different but basically when you're
0:04:09looking at just a pure wave form and the
0:04:11way that's represented in like a
0:04:13lossless file or a wave or or or AIFF
0:04:17every sample of audio is and you have a
0:04:20separate of like you know 44,100 samples
0:04:22per second or whatever else represent us
0:04:23Hertz every one of those samples it's
0:04:26representing the amp
0:04:27to that wave as a number and the
0:04:30bit-depth is the precision of those
0:04:32numbers so if it's 16-bit like CDs then
0:04:35that is represented by a 16-bit signed
0:04:37integer if it's 24-bit you have more
0:04:40bits if it's usually it I think a 24 or
0:04:42I think beyond 24 it's always float and
0:04:46you have floating point presentations
0:04:47and the reason these matter is that as
0:04:51you're encoding the music to these
0:04:54samples there you have to fit a number
0:04:57the value that you're getting from like
0:04:58the analog or whatever you have to fit
0:05:00the value of that into this many bits of
0:05:03a number per sample and so there's a
0:05:06certain degree of rounding that happens
0:05:08and a certain degree of error that's
0:05:09introduced as part of that rounding if
0:05:11you only have 16 bits then that's that
0:05:15kind of limits your resolution of how
0:05:16you know how precise of a number you can
0:05:19represent there and so there's all sorts
0:05:20of complicated things that go on in Dax
0:05:22and ATC's about basically how you round
0:05:26the numbers in such a way to minimize
0:05:28the error or to hide the error and
0:05:32different noise patterns and everything
0:05:33else as you increase the error rate you
0:05:38increase the noise floor so you ain't
0:05:40you you reduce these signal-to-noise
0:05:41ratio that's the difference between the
0:05:43loudest sound you can hear and the
0:05:44quietest sound that can be represented
0:05:46but you know below like the noise floor
0:05:47so you basically increase like the
0:05:48hislop the very bottom of the track the
0:05:51reason why audiophiles freaked out about
0:05:53this is because when you go from 16-bit
0:05:56- 24-bit which is where they usually go
0:05:58the noise floor does drop considerably
0:06:00there's a great Wikipedia article title
0:06:02audio a bit depth you should check it
0:06:04out
0:06:04basically the noise floor at 24 bits for
0:06:09four bit depth is 144 decibels and it's
0:06:1216 bits the regular CD standards only 96
0:06:15so that's a pretty big difference
0:06:17however the reason that doesn't really
0:06:21matter for the most part is that 96
0:06:24decibels of suitable noise ratio covers
0:06:26the human audible hearing range pretty
0:06:28well the actual human audible hearing is
0:06:30just something like 120 decibels it
0:06:32varies per person a little bit but it's
0:06:33around a hundred mils so it actually
0:06:36isn't representing the entire human
0:06:38audible hearing range but it's
0:06:40like you don't want to turn your
0:06:42speaker's up so loud that you're
0:06:45actually damaging your eardrums like the
0:06:47human hearing range can go much higher
0:06:49in in volume than what you actually
0:06:51should ever be listening to on a
0:06:53sustained basis like that's like you
0:06:55know a rock concert or a jet airplane
0:06:57flying overhead or things about its if
0:06:59you listen at any reasonable length to
0:07:02something that loud you're gonna damage
0:07:04your hearing pretty quickly permanently
0:07:06so 90s accessible zuv signal noise ratio
0:07:09which is what you get from CD quality
0:07:1016-bit audio is good enough upon
0:07:14listening where it matters is if you are
0:07:18editing if you're proud if you're
0:07:19recording like I record my end of the
0:07:21show is 24-bit I record audio 24-bit
0:07:24whenever I can or as float even whenever
0:07:26I can with 32-bit usually because when
0:07:28you're editing you're changing the
0:07:29numbers you're processing the audio and
0:07:31so if you have rounding error over time
0:07:34that could add up after you apply
0:07:36certain number of like filters or
0:07:37adjustments or anything like that and
0:07:39then that 96 decibels of noise floor
0:07:41that was in the original signal once you
0:07:43process it a few times and you're
0:07:44rounding off the numbers a few more
0:07:46times you might actually have more error
0:07:48in the signal than that and the noise
0:07:50floor might start to become audible so
0:07:53we're higher bitrate audio makes sense
0:07:55is in mastering and editing and
0:07:57recording but the final shift version
0:07:59that you that you release to the public
0:08:01or the version that you the listener are
0:08:03listening to doesn't need to be more
0:08:05than 16-bit for almost any reason
0:08:07whatsoever
0:08:08all right sorry that's all it says Oh
0:08:13Marco that you you really care about
0:08:16audio I don't understand where this
0:08:18comes from if you want also there's a
0:08:19wonderful video that explains a lot of
0:08:22this
0:08:22there's a guy Monty I think his full
0:08:24name is Chris Montgomery he is you know
0:08:26the guy or one of the people who
0:08:28invented the aw glorious audio codec and
0:08:30he has a lot of great explainers out
0:08:34there about basically like why you don't
0:08:36need higher than CD quality audio as a
0:08:38listener and and explains a lot of the
0:08:40stuff that I learned a lot from that and
0:08:41it's my other research but I'll have
0:08:43both these links in the show notes about
0:08:44that video and the Wikipedia article on
0:08:46audio bit depth excellent so we had a
0:08:50couple of thoughts or listeners had a
0:08:52couple of thoughts about the iPhone
0:08:54crow knotch and I'm embarrassed to admit
0:08:57that there's one thought that I didn't
0:08:59consider so I'm in the camp that I think
0:09:03not having seen anything of course that
0:09:05it makes the most sense to to kind of
0:09:08hide the knotch so hypothetically the
0:09:10area adjacent to the notch would be all
0:09:13black so it all kind of blend together
0:09:15and it would just look like empty screen
0:09:16in the center and it would look not too
0:09:18dissimilar from the way a phone looks
0:09:20today
0:09:20but somebody maybe there's one of you
0:09:23guys thought we'll okay smart guy what
0:09:25happens when you go landscape and I
0:09:27don't have a good answer for that I'm
0:09:31really ashamed myself that I didn't even
0:09:33think about this yeah until I saw this
0:09:35in the show notes so Marco what do you
0:09:37think about what happens when you put
0:09:39this supposed phone in landscape so
0:09:42obviously it depends on like how they
0:09:43handle the notch in the in the UI
0:09:45if the notch is basically hidden and you
0:09:48just have like status bar black on left
0:09:50and right and then you have like a
0:09:51square window below it that takes of the
0:09:53rest of the screen which as I mentioned
0:09:55previously that's what I kind of hope
0:09:56they do if that's what they do then I
0:10:00think it's pretty easy in landscape you
0:10:02just leave those little strips black and
0:10:05you don't use them at all that's
0:10:07probably not what they will do I have a
0:10:09feeling what they actually will do is
0:10:10you know shove translucent UI under
0:10:13those and have ways to actually you know
0:10:15use it in a way that might be kind of
0:10:18awkward now in landscape the only reason
0:10:21I think anybody to use their phones in
0:10:22landscape I think probably the big ones
0:10:25are watching video although even that a
0:10:27lot of people watch it in portrait
0:10:28anyway just because they're they that's
0:10:30how they are used to holding their
0:10:31phones also certain games play in
0:10:34landscape although again I think the
0:10:36most successful ones playing portrait on
0:10:37the phone and then the other thing as I
0:10:39guess when you're when you're taking
0:10:41video or shooting with the camera you
0:10:42might rotate it so all those things
0:10:44could they could make ways to to use the
0:10:47knotch
0:10:48in a few clever ways like maybe a game
0:10:51could show some controls in there maybe
0:10:53the camera can show some controls in
0:10:54there but I haven't feeling most of what
0:10:57we're gonna see is basically going to be
0:10:58in landscape the not just becomes black
0:11:01and you don't see it at all yeah I think
0:11:03you can't can't do anything with the
0:11:06knotch inland
0:11:07escaped because anything that you would
0:11:10think of doing would represent data loss
0:11:11to the content in portrait the status
0:11:15bar is not your content it's part of the
0:11:17UI so you can do whatever dance you want
0:11:19to do with the status bar whether it you
0:11:20know hides in there or the status bar is
0:11:22the blower ever but how if you're in
0:11:25landscape and you're doing video or
0:11:27something even if the OS lets you go
0:11:29edge to edge and use the notches what if
0:11:31you want to see what's under the camera
0:11:33things it's like something's in my way I
0:11:35can't I can't see what the camera
0:11:37shooting there no maybe that's not
0:11:38important was there was something that
0:11:41was angry about oh I think it was like
0:11:44QuickTime Player many years ago maybe
0:11:47still now I don't know I still use
0:11:48QuickTime Player seven but at one point
0:11:50Apple I believe Apple released a video
0:11:54player I think it was the QuickTime
0:11:55Player
0:11:55that would show video in a window with
0:11:58rounded corners and it was like what's
0:12:02like don't chop off the corner it's like
0:12:04there's video in those corners why this
0:12:06is a lot of video but there is video
0:12:08there and just like no you don't need to
0:12:09see that because it's more important for
0:12:11this window to ever end of course than
0:12:12for you to see the video that's in that
0:12:15corner and I know it's just a small
0:12:16thing but just on the principle it's
0:12:19like if you do that I don't even have
0:12:22the option to see what's under the
0:12:25knotch
0:12:26right so I think you have to just when
0:12:28you go into landscape I feel like the OS
0:12:32are just enforced entirely maybe games
0:12:34come up with something clever like
0:12:35little men climb on the knotch writer
0:12:36than not just like a little gun turret
0:12:38or something but McGee yeah cuz you can
0:12:42incorporate it and be fun but it would
0:12:43only work in this one model of phone
0:12:44it's just so much safer to say when
0:12:46anybody goes in landscape forget about
0:12:48the notch we don't light up the pixels
0:12:49on either side of it the thing is just
0:12:51you know it's just a straight line down
0:12:54the edge I also saw by the way it's
0:12:56another mock-up image for a while ago
0:12:58showing screen real estate wise what do
0:13:02you get with the edge to edge phone and
0:13:03I know this can't be true because this
0:13:04one's got to be wider than the iPhone 7
0:13:06- but it was like basically trying to
0:13:09say you don't really get any new space
0:13:11because all the new pixels on the bottom
0:13:13are taken up essentially with the home
0:13:14button area and whatever they're going
0:13:16to do
0:13:16there and this thing was assuming that
0:13:18like the UI and navbar wasn't gonna
0:13:20throw stuff there and in the top you've
0:13:22got the notch and then you got a little
0:13:26sliver of space and then you've got the
0:13:28normal iPhone sized screen in between
0:13:29those two things and little sliver of
0:13:31space was like look like a little status
0:13:34bar so the idea was that I guess if you
0:13:36had a non optimized for iPhone Pro
0:13:40application it would show its status bar
0:13:43below the knotch in the traditional way
0:13:45because between the bottom of the notch
0:13:47in the top of the software home button
0:13:49area would be a screen that is the same
0:13:52resolution as some existing a high phone
0:13:54anyway that's that's the impression I
0:13:55got from this image but the more I think
0:13:57about them I think I can't possibly be
0:13:58the case because at the very least it
0:13:59should be wider everything other stuff
0:14:01but it would be weird if there was like
0:14:04a backward compatibility mode for
0:14:06unmodified apps that were not like notch
0:14:10savvy you know what I mean like they
0:14:12could they miss that you know he was
0:14:15like that it's inelegant they took they
0:14:17you know phone apps run it to X on your
0:14:18iPad to this day and it looks terrible
0:14:20and they zoom things that have not been
0:14:22updated for the iPhone 5 for more like
0:14:26they in the past they've done that and
0:14:27it's been a good choice but it's like
0:14:29look if people don't update their apps
0:14:30will make them run as close as possible
0:14:32to the way they used to run so the app
0:14:34has no idea that is running a totally
0:14:36new weird phone it just looks a little
0:14:37bit strange but it's completely
0:14:39compatible because we don't do anything
0:14:41weird and I can imagine that happening
0:14:43with with this new phone which will be
0:14:47bad but I guess will motivate people to
0:14:49incorporate the notch into their
0:14:51applications fair enough now why bother
0:14:55having the notch in the first place
0:14:57again this is one of my thoughts why are
0:15:02we doing this way I have a notch like
0:15:05the edge to edge screen alright yeah we
0:15:07won't have an edge miscreant but why do
0:15:08we have to have a notch of that you can
0:15:09go all the way to the left it all went
0:15:12to the right edge and all the way to the
0:15:13bottom edge all you had to do is not go
0:15:15all the way to the top edge instead of
0:15:17having a notch you have a presumably
0:15:19very thin little forehead it would still
0:15:22be a quote-unquote edge to edge screen
0:15:25as compared to all I phones previously
0:15:28would have very large chins and for
0:15:30Red's right the the notch is
0:15:32asymmetrical and so with the the the
0:15:34skinny little forehead version but it
0:15:37would last a symmetrical John the notch
0:15:40I mean well but you know the whole point
0:15:44is there's something that's Hoppus out
0:15:45on the bottom whether it's a skinny
0:15:46thing if something's happen anyway and
0:15:49it would just it would just eliminate an
0:15:51entire class we would solve our problems
0:15:53so presumably Apple has done a lot of
0:15:54work in the OS and then the frameworks
0:15:57figuring out the answers to all these
0:15:58questions that we're just guessing at
0:16:00now right they've done they've figured
0:16:01out answers to all of these they've
0:16:02decided what they're gonna do in all
0:16:03these different cases tested
0:16:05applications test the new API so you can
0:16:07be notch savvy and do all this stuff
0:16:09right all that work would go away if
0:16:11they just made the notch go from edge to
0:16:13edge but I guess the phone wouldn't look
0:16:15as cool and then you know I don't know
0:16:18like does anyone else have a notch
0:16:19example gonna be the first night run I
0:16:21know there are phones out there that
0:16:22already look like edge to edge screen
0:16:24both a little skinny for head so maybe
0:16:25Apple just didn't want to look like that
0:16:28one of those things where if Apple was
0:16:33like other companies and like you could
0:16:37they have like interviews with the
0:16:38designer it's like you get the whole
0:16:39team that design the new iPhone and
0:16:42they'd help to do a big article and like
0:16:43wired or something and be like tell me
0:16:44about your motivation for design there
0:16:46and they would like explain why they
0:16:48went with the knotch
0:16:48right but we never get those reasons
0:16:50just like this is the phone here it is
0:16:52maybe there's a sentence and a key note
0:16:54about it which Apple never ever
0:16:56elaborate on yeah like so we just have
0:17:00to wait 20 years for the tell-all books
0:17:02but it's a bit of a head-scratcher for
0:17:04me because I think it looks cool to
0:17:06notch I think there's gonna be some
0:17:07interesting possibilities there but it
0:17:09is a heck of a lot of work and it seems
0:17:12like a stopgap like if we're gonna have
0:17:15not just forever presumably whatever
0:17:17tech issues necessitate the knotch will
0:17:20diminish over time either your old embed
0:17:23those sensors someplace else or you'll
0:17:25be able to make such a skinny forehead
0:17:26that it won't even be a far heaven would
0:17:27just be like thing goes to edge to edge
0:17:29or I don't know the good that this is
0:17:31not the permanent state of what like
0:17:32well all future iPhones have notches for
0:17:35the next seven years there's gonna be
0:17:36notches from here to there but I dunno I
0:17:38kept doing all this work with the OS and
0:17:39everything it seemed like a waste if
0:17:42it's just like there
0:17:43the time we rejiggered all the the
0:17:45frameworks in the west of this one phone
0:17:47and it was the only one that ended up
0:17:48having a notch I don't know we'll find
0:17:51out in the fall I guess yeah this is
0:17:53this is why what I want to happen
0:17:55although I don't think this is what will
0:17:57happen again but what I want to happen
0:17:59here is I want the notch to to basically
0:18:02be invisible in the software like I want
0:18:05it to just have a status bar on left and
0:18:07right then then you you get the extra 20
0:18:10point height that the status bar would
0:18:12have taken up in the main screen you can
0:18:13shove that up and in you know into this
0:18:15little side area where there is no
0:18:16center but you can rearrange status bar
0:18:18and in the application frame is just
0:18:20everything below that I would love that
0:18:22was the solution
0:18:23I don't want as a user and as a
0:18:26programmer of apps for this thing and as
0:18:28a designer of the app I do not want to
0:18:30have to deal with the knotch
0:18:31I think it will be clunky and weird and
0:18:34I think it will look weird as a user I'm
0:18:35not looking forward to that at all and I
0:18:37do think it looks like an inelegant hack
0:18:39and if Samsung would have released that
0:18:42knotch
0:18:42and Apple didn't we'd make fun of them
0:18:44for it that's exactly the kind of thing
0:18:46we'd be like oh you guys are bad at
0:18:47design look at those stupid knotch just
0:18:49like the flea and like the flat tire
0:18:50moto 360 watch like we made fun of that
0:18:53relentlessly everyone in Apple world did
0:18:55because that was that was like a bad
0:18:58design hack to get around a physical
0:19:00shortcoming I don't see how the notch is
0:19:02any different that looks like a bad
0:19:04design hack to get her in a facility or
0:19:05coding domain again we'll see what
0:19:07happens when when we see the final
0:19:08software but I really do not want the UI
0:19:12in any way to wrap around that except
0:19:15the status bar in a way that you barely
0:19:17even notice but because of that leaked
0:19:19image from the home hot firmware showing
0:19:22that knotch as like the recognizable
0:19:24iconic shape of this phone that's the
0:19:27reason I'm concerned that they're not
0:19:28doing it that way now let's ben lock
0:19:30screen like i said it may yeah maybe
0:19:31just the lockscreen that that wouldn't
0:19:33be too bad but if it's any other parts
0:19:35of the UI like if they scroll
0:19:37translucent bars under there or anything
0:19:38with that i really i don't think i'm
0:19:41going to like that that again it seems
0:19:42like that seems like a bad design hack
0:19:45not good design
0:19:47so people that chatroom are posting
0:19:49pictures of of course android phones
0:19:50that have their own little notches the
0:19:52one they're saying showing here it's a
0:19:54very tiny notch it just wraps around one
0:19:56low
0:19:56facing camera cuz obviously the you know
0:19:59what is uh the the new phone supposedly
0:20:01have a notch instead of just this little
0:20:02tiny button like cut out because it's
0:20:05got to have more than just a camera
0:20:06there maybe they'll have two front
0:20:07facing cameras certainly it's got the IR
0:20:09sensor for depths of the face stuff like
0:20:10who knows what's in that notch but it
0:20:12can't be smallest but anybody as in all
0:20:15things Android phones have done first so
0:20:19I think actually Simpsons did a first
0:20:20round then opera hopper that Simpsons
0:20:24did it is the line opera did it first is
0:20:28that joke so I think opera wins this one
0:20:29thank you
0:20:30did you really just well actually mean
0:20:33the sad part is right we are sponsored
0:20:38this week by Eero go to Iran calm and
0:20:40use code ATP for free overnight shipping
0:20:43Wi-Fi when you only have one router just
0:20:46doesn't cover houses very well because
0:20:48Wi-Fi waves don't go through walls as
0:20:50well as I go through open spaces and you
0:20:52get these dead zones and everything else
0:20:53euro is designed to solve that problem
0:20:55because businesses and schools and
0:20:59campuses have done this for a long time
0:21:00they use multiple access points and if
0:21:02you did this for your home it was a very
0:21:05very complicated before euro euro makes
0:21:07it incredibly easy to have a distributed
0:21:10Wi-Fi system enterprise-grade Wi-Fi in
0:21:12your home with the easiest setup of any
0:21:15system I've ever seen all you do you
0:21:17plug it in you use their app on your
0:21:19iPhone or your Android phone and sets it
0:21:22up and you have to do literally almost
0:21:23nothing so you get the one main unit and
0:21:26they've actually just updated their
0:21:28hardware the old ones are great too but
0:21:29they just did the generation 2 system so
0:21:32this has the main unit which is now
0:21:34tribe and as twice and twice as fast as
0:21:36the first one has hold a radio you have
0:21:39these now these secondary units they
0:21:41used to be the same as the as the main
0:21:43unit now they have these little ones
0:21:44called beacons and they are even smaller
0:21:46even simpler they look like kind of just
0:21:48slightly larger than a night light and
0:21:50you just plug it in sits flush in your
0:21:52outlet it looks amazing it's tiny it's
0:21:54unobtrusive they even actually have
0:21:55night lights in the bottom of the
0:21:57beacons look is pretty cool so if you
0:21:59put it like in a hallway or anything and
0:22:00it makes it so easy to place anywhere
0:22:02and that covers the whole house and they
0:22:04don't have to be wired to each other
0:22:05only the first one has to be wired to
0:22:08your home's internet connection
0:22:09and the other ones you just they
0:22:11distribute the Wi-Fi with a mesh network
0:22:13between themselves so you don't have to
0:22:15worry about running Ethernet wires to
0:22:17your access points or anything else it's
0:22:19super super easy with the new second
0:22:22generation and the ear a beacon
0:22:23performance is even better the looks or
0:22:25even nicer and it's even smaller what
0:22:27you need is this kind of system single
0:22:29routers are not good enough anymore they
0:22:31don't cover houses we all know that they
0:22:33we've all done that for years no matter
0:22:34how many antennas you put on one it
0:22:36doesn't cover everything an euro is by
0:22:38far the easiest way to do this I've ever
0:22:39seen so check it out they have great
0:22:41support if you need it they have great
0:22:42pricing go to Eero calm and use promo
0:22:46code ATP to get free overnight shipping
0:22:49thanks to ero for sponsoring our show
0:22:51[Music]
0:22:54anyway
0:22:55wisdom camera kerimov of 1password i
0:22:58believe a co-founder if I'm not mistaken
0:22:59has a written blog post to say among
0:23:02other things one password 7th windows
0:23:03will be getting support for standalone
0:23:05vaults which is the thing that started
0:23:07the big kerfuffle a few weeks ago also
0:23:10WLAN sync and different license related
0:23:13information John any other thoughts you
0:23:16want to add on this no just that this is
0:23:18another in that pattern we've seen for a
0:23:20couple of a couple of years now that
0:23:23like a company will change some part of
0:23:25its product either the features or the
0:23:27business model or both and then a bunch
0:23:29of people get angry about it and then
0:23:31there's always it's always the follow-up
0:23:33we're like they've incorporated the
0:23:34feedback from their customers like they
0:23:36you know they were taken by surprise by
0:23:38how you know angry people are about a
0:23:41particular thing and they all right well
0:23:42we can change that you know to reassure
0:23:44people that like we're not gonna you
0:23:45know the description thing is not going
0:23:47to take away your ability to have all
0:23:48your stuff locally you don't have to use
0:23:49the cloud so on and so forth so looks
0:23:51like they are doing the right things
0:23:54yeah I saw a lot of feedback about this
0:23:58a lot of people talked about well if if
0:24:03everything goes subscription then I'm
0:24:05not gonna have any money for anything
0:24:07anymore and I don't know I feel like we
0:24:10should address that perhaps again I
0:24:12don't know what did we talk about this
0:24:13Marko covered it the last time we talked
0:24:16about it
0:24:17I agree it's fresh in my mind it's fresh
0:24:20in my mind I listen to those shows just
0:24:21recently did
0:24:22but yeah like it is it's kind of a
0:24:25slippery slope argument but so far it
0:24:26hasn't happened and it there is a
0:24:28there's a natural counterbalance which
0:24:30is well if people don't like it they
0:24:31won't buy it and if they don't buy it
0:24:33people won't do it like so it's you know
0:24:34there's there aren't many forces in the
0:24:37mix here that are going to cause this
0:24:41dystopia to happen despite the fact that
0:24:43users don't want it like it's possible
0:24:46for there to be countervailing forces
0:24:47for example if Apple said hey guess what
0:24:49the only way you could sell plication is
0:24:51in the app course it's a subscription
0:24:52but that that's not the way things are
0:24:54so I it's not not time to be worried
0:24:56about it now don't like it don't buy it
0:24:59exactly exactly what I was gonna say if
0:25:01something if something that you you like
0:25:03but don't love suddenly become
0:25:05subscription then guess what you're you
0:25:07have an option which is not to get a
0:25:09subscription that's okay the one thing I
0:25:12will say though is that the the if if a
0:25:14app goes from not subscription to
0:25:17subscription like there's no way around
0:25:18that that's going to happen from time to
0:25:20time and that is tough right because
0:25:22here it is you thought you paid for
0:25:23something in some cases that that you
0:25:26would have for a while although you
0:25:27should not have expected that you have
0:25:28it forever and then the the cost changes
0:25:31and that's a bummer like the I don't
0:25:33mean to be sarcastic all at all about
0:25:35that that really is a bummer but there's
0:25:37different trade-offs to like that one
0:25:38person who said like what if I lose my
0:25:40job I don't want to also lose all my
0:25:42programs because I can't afford to pay
0:25:43their monthly bills anymore
0:25:44well you know that's the smile I lose my
0:25:47job I don't want to lose cable TV
0:25:48because they can't afford the bill
0:25:49anymore
0:25:50well you know it's like well I need this
0:25:51offer to do my job like there presumably
0:25:53every single application an entire
0:25:56category won't be subscription right or
0:25:58even if it is maybe they'll have varying
0:26:00subscriptions and right now the
0:26:02subscriptions are like three bucks a
0:26:03month so I feel like if you can't script
0:26:04you know three dollars a month you have
0:26:06much bigger problems than not being able
0:26:08to use your graphics program to produce
0:26:10spec work which you shouldn't be doing
0:26:11anyway to get your next job so anyway
0:26:13you know in times of hardship many
0:26:17things are difficult from paying your
0:26:20rent to your food your health insurance
0:26:21your software licenses are just another
0:26:24one of those potential things that could
0:26:26be a problem but you know if there's a
0:26:29need for this then if this is a real
0:26:30problem
0:26:30someone will fill it by selling a
0:26:32program for a fixed price
0:26:35and you know selling upgrades in the
0:26:37traditional way or going into business
0:26:39because they can't sustain their one
0:26:41application but hey you've got it until
0:26:42it stops working I mean there's always
0:26:44options to like you know look at what
0:26:45like high school kids and college kids
0:26:48and people in developing countries like
0:26:49there's a lot of markets of people who
0:26:51can't afford a bunch of software
0:26:53licenses or subscriptions and they find
0:26:55other options
0:26:56piracy maybe he's not the best option
0:26:59but it's certainly a widespread one a
0:27:01much better option is free software
0:27:03alternatives almost every kind of task
0:27:06you can do in a computer today has some
0:27:08kind of free software alternative to the
0:27:09big-name one Photoshop Illustrator you
0:27:12know audio processing stuff like all
0:27:14that like almost all these like big
0:27:15creative apps or productivity apps they
0:27:18almost all have freeware alternatives
0:27:20free open-source if not just you know
0:27:22free alternatives and not to mention you
0:27:25know the all the stuff built into the OS
0:27:26is these days or doing things on on iOS
0:27:30and Android where the apps cost very
0:27:33very little money usually and usually
0:27:34you you you know buy it once if anything
0:27:37and it's free and you can do a lot of
0:27:39free stuff there or we do a lot of
0:27:40inexpensive stuff there with tools that
0:27:42are really good these days like there's
0:27:44lots of options now I think that I think
0:27:47the D like I can't afford all my
0:27:49software subscriptions thing is mostly a
0:27:53complaint from people who very much
0:27:55can't afford them and are just looking
0:27:58for a reason to be upset about a pricing
0:28:00change because when you change the
0:28:02business model that's when people get
0:28:03upset it matters a lot less what you
0:28:05change it to then the fact that you
0:28:07changed it and people feel may be
0:28:09surprised or caught off guard by that or
0:28:13feel like they're being taken advantage
0:28:13of like after the fact you're changing
0:28:15the deal you know after the fact you
0:28:17know I know pray you don't sort of
0:28:18further etc I don't again I don't think
0:28:20this is a real issue I I don't think
0:28:23this is something that anybody is
0:28:24actually facing hardship over in any
0:28:27real numbers this is people complaining
0:28:29who very much can't afford it and and
0:28:31are just mad and for the people who
0:28:33truly can't afford it there's lots of
0:28:35great options out there that are either
0:28:37inexpensive or free and many of them are
0:28:39built into the OS you already have and
0:28:41whatever isn't you can get in your App
0:28:44Store of choice or your online
0:28:46repository of software of choice
0:28:48for very little money or nothing usually
0:28:51because this is not like people use
0:28:53computers without paying for things on
0:28:55them for a very long time this is this
0:28:58is a solved problem in so many ways all
0:29:01right
0:29:02ero wants to know is there any reason
0:29:04not to use the built-in calibration
0:29:05tools on the Apple TV you can get to
0:29:07that from the opportunity settings audio
0:29:10and video calibrate you can use them but
0:29:12they're terrible I mean like they're
0:29:15terrible they're limited like I think at
0:29:18all it does is like screen bounds and
0:29:21maybe like one other thing like it
0:29:23doesn't do all the color or white
0:29:27balance greyscale brightness contrast
0:29:29you know doesn't do all that stuff if
0:29:31they want to improve that in a future
0:29:32version TV also would be great but the
0:29:35current one and I believe the one in the
0:29:37the betas it still does very limit it's
0:29:41better than nothing so by all means do
0:29:42it in so you can see if you're in a case
0:29:43you like situation where you're missing
0:29:44half the pixels on your screen because
0:29:46not half but some portion of the pixels
0:29:48on your screen because you have your
0:29:49thing an over scan mode and that may
0:29:52make you sad to know that but beyond
0:29:53that you still need the calibration it
0:29:55fine fine
0:29:57all right apparently Samir Mizrahi
0:30:00listens to our show or at least that's
0:30:02what I'm going to claim because mere
0:30:04weeks maybe even a few days after we had
0:30:08discussed how frustrating it is to hear
0:30:11the first song in your library every
0:30:13time you reconnect the ax Bluetooth this
0:30:16this individual has released a single on
0:30:18iTunes called aaaa a very good song and
0:30:23it is it's a little less than 10 minutes
0:30:26of silence because apparently any more
0:30:28than 10 minutes and iTunes charges you
0:30:29for a whole album and the idea is
0:30:32because it's a space a space a space a
0:30:34space a space very good song it is very
0:30:37likely to be the very first song in your
0:30:39in your library so every time you plug
0:30:43in your phone or start bluetooth or
0:30:44what-have-you you don't hear the same in
0:30:47my case track by olya every single time
0:30:49so this is an absolutely brilliant
0:30:52solution to a problem that none of us
0:30:54should really have my favorite thing
0:30:56about this is how far up the charts it
0:30:59was climbing like we saw some articles
0:31:02about it
0:31:02in there I don't have anything hand
0:31:04unfortunately cuz I'm a slacker on
0:31:05vacation but like it was it was
0:31:08noticeably ranking on the iTunes top
0:31:11singles chart somewhere why you're not
0:31:15allowed to start with like a spacer you
0:31:18know a punctuation character or number
0:31:20or all the other things that would have
0:31:21sorted before the A's because I feel
0:31:23like now now this is now you've started
0:31:24a war now for who can be the earliest
0:31:26try no don't get that AAA track you need
0:31:29my track which is one one one I'll get
0:31:31money it's it's space space space
0:31:33exclamation point anyway well I feel
0:31:37like that's kind of like a like a
0:31:38million dollar homepage problem like
0:31:40anybody else who tries the same thing is
0:31:42it's not gonna get anywhere yeah I I'm
0:31:46just thanked for sorting purposes not
0:31:47for like actually selling the thing um
0:31:49but you know everyone sent us this
0:31:51obviously but it doesn't solve the
0:31:53problem at all in fact I think it makes
0:31:54it worse the fact that it sound makes it
0:31:56worse because if I had this track I
0:31:59would be like waiting and thinking am i
0:32:03hearing the silent track or is it just
0:32:05taking a long time to start playing like
0:32:06is it launching overcast in the
0:32:08background or and like you know the
0:32:10problem is not I keep hearing the first
0:32:13you know few notes of a song because the
0:32:16alphabet be alphabetically first song in
0:32:17my playlist I like it's a good song and
0:32:19I'm not sick of it because I never
0:32:20listened it the whole thing I frustrated
0:32:22by the fact that it has picked the wrong
0:32:24source and by the way after I said like
0:32:26most of the time that's the right thing
0:32:28maybe 15 percent of the time I get the
0:32:29wrong thing
0:32:30this thing is taken revenge on me and my
0:32:33last like 50 trips in the car one
0:32:36percent of the time and I started
0:32:37playing music even if I was just playing
0:32:38I don't know if it's overcast beta is
0:32:41crashing or I don't know what the hell's
0:32:42going on but anyway it's really bad for
0:32:44me wait there is no current beta you
0:32:46should be using the App Store version
0:32:47well that's the problem do I have a
0:32:49little dot next overcast on my phone
0:32:51it's a bug right now I do I do get rid
0:32:56of that alright anyway maybe that's my
0:32:58problem but either way this this crack
0:33:00would not solve my problem in I mean
0:33:02what did she really be as a voice that
0:33:03says it happened again you you thought
0:33:07different audio we were playing but
0:33:09instead it's playing this song from your
0:33:10playlist pull over safely and then
0:33:13fiddle with your phone don't try to do
0:33:14it while you're driving because
0:33:15you'll run somebody over or you'll die
0:33:17but you'd be sick of hearing that bottom
0:33:20line is there is no safe track to put
0:33:21there and I don't think the silence
0:33:22solves the problem I think it makes it
0:33:23worse but more power to this person for
0:33:25seven people
0:33:26the sounds of silence all right I don't
0:33:29know how to sell music on iTunes but can
0:33:31we cut that out and actually try this
0:33:32and then be the way to solve this I know
0:33:35we have some listeners inside of Apple I
0:33:37don't know how high up they go but the
0:33:41way to solve this is to somehow get a
0:33:43hold of Johnny Ives or Tim Cook's iPhone
0:33:45and sync a single track to it that is a
0:33:49renamed version of some very annoying
0:33:52song that is renamed to be like a Abe's
0:33:55me I don't know the the the the
0:33:57possibilities are endless of what's
0:33:59honest could be
0:34:01[Music]
0:34:12[Music]
0:34:27you know something something really that
0:34:30would really dread the most this problem
0:34:31will get solved in the next version of
0:34:33iOS it fails Karl just B can innovate
0:34:36more my ass on a loop my word so we
0:34:42actually did get some feedback about
0:34:43this and this individual rate wrote to
0:34:46say Bluetooth has two major ways to
0:34:48start playback in a car the good old
0:34:50simple Play command and a newer set of
0:34:52advanced browsing commands that allows
0:34:54the car to control the apps and navigate
0:34:55the media library on the phone with a
0:34:57play command the active media player is
0:34:59chosen by the phone and that from time
0:35:02to time gets a little buggy according to
0:35:05this person it is quite likely that this
0:35:07whole little subsystem was written by
0:35:08one person who may have then been moved
0:35:11somewhere else within Apple and who even
0:35:13knows but with the new browsing stuff
0:35:15then the car can decide how it wants to
0:35:18select you know like the active media
0:35:20player and in a playlist and an album
0:35:22and blah blah blah and so now you're
0:35:24letting the car make choices that it
0:35:26probably shouldn't be making and so that
0:35:30makes everything a little bit dodgy so
0:35:32this is this is surely in part apples
0:35:35fault but it is not by necessity
0:35:37entirely apples fault depending on the
0:35:40car depending on how its connecting etc
0:35:42etc etc where sponsor was week by
0:35:46aftershocks bone conduction headphones
0:35:48go to ATP aftershocks calm to learn more
0:35:52aftershokz headphones work by bone
0:35:54conduction so these small transducers
0:35:56rest in front of your ears not inside or
0:35:59around them like most headphones and
0:36:00they send mini vibrations through your
0:36:02cheek bones directly to your inner ear
0:36:05totally bypasses your ears and your
0:36:07eardrums so unlike every other kind of
0:36:09headphone bone conduction leave your
0:36:11ears completely open with nothing in
0:36:13them so for a lot of people like me we
0:36:16can't wear earbuds or in-ear monitors do
0:36:18they get physically uncomfortable in our
0:36:20ear canals aftershocks don't have this
0:36:23problem because nothing is sitting in
0:36:24your ear and because they don't cover
0:36:26your ear I find them far less sweaty
0:36:29than regular headphones in the summer
0:36:31time and they're even ip55 certified for
0:36:34water-resistant so you can you can run
0:36:35with them in the rain or you can just
0:36:37sweat all
0:36:38them all gross and it's totally fine I
0:36:40have found that I use these more than
0:36:43any other headphones in the summertime
0:36:44in fact I'm on vacation right now for a
0:36:46few weeks and I brought only these
0:36:48headphones for walking all other
0:36:51portable headphones I've left at home
0:36:52because I will I only want to use these
0:36:54here because I'm walking a lot and using
0:36:56these multiple hours a day I'm sweating
0:36:58a lot I'm sometime using them in the
0:36:59rain and it's totally fine and the great
0:37:01thing about it is that because nothing
0:37:02blocks your ears at all you hear the
0:37:05whole world around you so you can be
0:37:06walking or you know maybe cycling or
0:37:09running where you really want to hear
0:37:11the world around you for safety reasons
0:37:12or just to enjoy it and you need
0:37:15something that doesn't block your ear
0:37:16and that's what bone conduction is great
0:37:18at it's also great if you want to listen
0:37:19around the house you know if you want to
0:37:21like take a phone call because you know
0:37:23these are obviously a Bluetooth they can
0:37:24do phone calls if you want to take a
0:37:25phone call with them and maybe you want
0:37:27to hear if anything happens in your
0:37:28house and the process you can do that
0:37:30too and so if I'm honest the downsides
0:37:32here are there aren't the best for sound
0:37:34quality and they don't get very loud if
0:37:35you're in a very loud environment
0:37:36because they're so open to the world if
0:37:39you're in like a like a subway station
0:37:40these wouldn't be the pick for you but
0:37:42they're amazing for walking around
0:37:44outside for any kind of exercise use for
0:37:48around the house and anymore anything
0:37:50you want it you want to hear the world
0:37:51around you that's where the aftershocks
0:37:53are great and again they're so awesome
0:37:54for minimizing sweatiness too so the
0:37:56aftershocks tracks titanium that I use
0:37:58here retails for one hundred and thirty
0:37:59bucks
0:37:59listeners can get can get a pair for
0:38:01yourself for just $100 90-95 by visiting
0:38:05ATP aftershocks calm that is ATP
0:38:08aftershocks calm
0:38:10thanks to aftershocks for sponsoring our
0:38:12show
0:38:13[Music]
0:38:16apparently SKT P is really a thing you
0:38:19were John I think you'd said you wanted
0:38:20it to be a thing in Marco you might have
0:38:21said the same all right it apparently
0:38:24it's a thing
0:38:24well the question is where does it go
0:38:26does it go after follow-up or does it go
0:38:27after topics or does it go in the after
0:38:29show where does it go no I think it goes
0:38:30after follow-up it sounds good I think
0:38:32that was right you always don't want to
0:38:36keep us away from our topics that we
0:38:38have long asked eighty people less
0:38:40likely to get topics you know what we
0:38:41could do John now down stick with me
0:38:43here I know this is wild we could we
0:38:46could have a little bit less follow-up
0:38:48we just did I just did do that
0:38:50are you sure we've been recording 45
0:38:53minutes I didn't an item about talking
0:38:56about bit-depth for 20 minutes I was
0:38:57Margo that was in 20 minutes anyway
0:38:59Cain asks how do you guys sync your home
0:39:02directories between your Macs and I will
0:39:04go first I don't I use Dropbox for a
0:39:07handful of things but generally speaking
0:39:09it's all in the cloud man so who cares
0:39:12same yeah I don't like my home directory
0:39:14that's not a thing I mean I doubt many
0:39:17people do that I think there used to be
0:39:18a way to know I'm thinking of the server
0:39:21thing never mind anyway when people do
0:39:23is they just use cloud stuff whether
0:39:25it's an iCloud Drive or Dropbox and
0:39:27that's the stuff that syncs but they
0:39:28don't stick their entire home
0:39:29directories and it probably wouldn't be
0:39:30a good idea to sync your entire home
0:39:32directories because probably in the
0:39:33library directory in your home directory
0:39:35there's crap that is machine specific
0:39:36somewhere lurking in there so you
0:39:38probably don't want to do a naive full
0:39:40sync of your entire home directory and
0:39:42in general think is really hard to get
0:39:43right and don't try setup something
0:39:45yourself to do it because you'll just
0:39:46end up posing yourself and you'll be set
0:39:49fair enough this is a truly great
0:39:52question which outside of the obvious I
0:39:56don't have a really good answer to so
0:39:57the question is from let me get a full
0:40:00name if I can
0:40:01Peter cam Peter cam asks what's one
0:40:04piece of old tech that is still in use
0:40:07not hidden in an attic and I think he's
0:40:10really talking to you John due to
0:40:12superior qualities or retro joy so for
0:40:15example CRT TV old video game consoles
0:40:18iPods etc I will start again the obvious
0:40:22answer to this is that I have a
0:40:24turntable that I still use almost daily
0:40:26however I just received that turntable
0:40:29as a Christmas present and it was brand
0:40:30new at the time so it is it is old
0:40:33technology however it is a new device in
0:40:36terms of old technology that's still in
0:40:39use I I can't think of anything offhand
0:40:42I'm sure there's something I'm not
0:40:43debating that I have something barbaric
0:40:45and old that I still use but darned if I
0:40:47can think of what it would be
0:40:48so marking one first last time John
0:40:51anything old that's outside of your
0:40:53attic I was going to say my plasma TV
0:40:55but that's not superior quality anymore
0:40:58it's not retro joy so I guess that's
0:41:00probably just the example of something
0:41:01old
0:41:02my consoles are probably it I have a
0:41:04bunch of old console hooked up journey
0:41:06on ps4 helps me not have to use my ps3
0:41:08for that but if want to play ego or
0:41:10Shadow of the Colossus I still have to
0:41:12use the ps3 so it is still connected to
0:41:13my TV there's gonna be a ps4 our port
0:41:17I shall of the Colossus leaving only eco
0:41:19like my ps3 is hanging on same thing
0:41:22with my wii which is basically used to
0:41:25play GameCube games most of the time
0:41:27almost all my old consoles are still
0:41:29hooked up it's kind of gonna be a shame
0:41:31when I eventually get a 4k TV because I
0:41:33doubt the 4k TV will have component
0:41:35video input to which I can connect my
0:41:37Gamecube so I have to buy some kind of
0:41:39adapter and then I probably go ahead and
0:41:40don't even bother right same thing with
0:41:43the Wii I have we got component video
0:41:45going into my TV I don't have to buy an
0:41:48adapter for that as well but for now
0:41:50yeah I got a lot of old consoles like
0:41:52them you know I should point out that a
0:41:54mark Marco is probably going to say the
0:41:56same thing I I forgot about which is I
0:41:58do have a mechanical watch that is also
0:42:00not terribly old but I do like using it
0:42:03when I'm dressing up for something
0:42:04special
0:42:05so now that I've stolen your Thunder
0:42:06Marco what about you honestly that was
0:42:09that was what I was thinking of as like
0:42:12the the best thing I could say here most
0:42:14of the things that I use are you know
0:42:17like I the things I thought I use that
0:42:19are actually like quote old and tech
0:42:21terms are not old enough to be
0:42:22interesting so like I'll have like you
0:42:25know like an old speaker ramp that you
0:42:28know for my desk or something but that's
0:42:29like you know old a desk an old desktop
0:42:32computer speaker ramp being like six
0:42:34years old you know or like for a while I
0:42:36was using a my first fujitsu scansnap
0:42:39scanner which I got about nine years ago
0:42:43but I actually replaced that about last
0:42:45year because it I was tired of replacing
0:42:48the rollers and the new ones were
0:42:49superfast and so I just got a new one
0:42:51yeah for me I think the best answer here
0:42:53is mechanical watches it's it's not a
0:42:57very interesting answer and it's not a
0:42:59new answer for people who have heard me
0:43:00talk ever so that's why I kind of wanted
0:43:03I Warnock was been better but I wasn't
0:43:05able to I do have mechanical watches
0:43:08that are somewhat old my oldest one is
0:43:11from 1968 so that's fairly old so I
0:43:14guess that counts
0:43:16awesome and that's the end of a sketchy
0:43:18fee for this week topics Johnny really
0:43:23gonna let me get away with this so it's
0:43:24so fast it's a really quick one it's a
0:43:26really quick one that's not the question
0:43:28how many questions that we do I just did
0:43:30three because that's how many I could
0:43:31put before I ran out of time before the
0:43:32show so Chris Johnson thank you Chris
0:43:35writes in blah blah destiny - blah blah
0:43:39blah try again
0:43:40which destiny to class and subclass will
0:43:43you start with have a nsobject and let's
0:43:51see some beautiful set I like that one
0:44:00they dropped the Enna's prefix man yeah
0:44:03so I'm going to do I was a warlock main
0:44:07in destiny one
0:44:08I barely I had to tighten that my son
0:44:10played and a hunter that I barely played
0:44:12I did level the Titan in hunter up so
0:44:15they will be ported over that's
0:44:17twenty-two along with my warlock but I'm
0:44:18gonna be world like me and destiny too
0:44:19and I'm probably gonna start with Don
0:44:21blade because it's the new one was any
0:44:23of that English because it didn't sound
0:44:25like it
0:44:25people know sort of asked ATP a rousing
0:44:30success thing and I had to rush to get
0:44:37the things in there and between trying
0:44:39to get my kids and my dog settle down
0:44:40British so feel free to I'm pulling from
0:44:42that same she'd feel free to pull your
0:44:45own questions in there and throw them in
0:44:47the little section you know the right
0:44:48answer which will never work but the
0:44:50rightest answer is for each of us to
0:44:52pull our favorite question each week but
0:44:54I guarantee Marco will forget and or not
0:44:57care and I give myself one chance in
0:44:59three eventually remembering pull
0:45:03questions and throw them in there but
0:45:04you know maybe we wouldn't have the
0:45:06section at all if I hadn't remembered it
0:45:07so that's true oh where would we be
0:45:10without you John
0:45:11and speaking of John tell us about this
0:45:14kerfuffle with Google and this diversity
0:45:17memo which I'm not sure is even the
0:45:19right way to describe it yeah the salton
0:45:22kind of news by now but we haven't
0:45:23recorded in a long time and
0:45:25there in the world of politics and
0:45:30discrimination there is newer news but
0:45:32it is not really tech related but this
0:45:35certainly is tech related it's a story
0:45:37that everybody probably knows by now the
0:45:39Google employee wrote I don't know why
0:45:42they call it a memo I guess the old
0:45:44parlance wrote a big thing sort of
0:45:46talking to Google internally saying
0:45:49we're all Googlers here here's what I
0:45:52think about what the company is doing
0:45:53and here's my opinion on it so on and so
0:45:55forth and it caused a big stink we will
0:45:59put a link to the document in the show
0:46:00notes on the off chance that you haven't
0:46:02already read it it's not that long but
0:46:04like oh it's ten pages and the grand
0:46:06scheme of things it's not that long
0:46:07because we don't pay doesn't the web you
0:46:09just scroll and also what we'll have in
0:46:13the show notes are what I think are some
0:46:15of the best responses to the Google
0:46:19thing so anyway at the impact of the
0:46:22story here being a to summarize in chief
0:46:24and Casey doing this the upshot is that
0:46:30the person who wrote this was fired
0:46:32because it contained I forget what the
0:46:35phrasing was but it contains a bunch of
0:46:38ideas and opinions that are counter to
0:46:41the way Google operates and then people
0:46:43are angry that the person got fired and
0:46:45people argued on the internet about and
0:46:47so on and so forth again this is a well
0:46:49covered story and I feel like if you
0:46:51don't know we're talking about or don't
0:46:53or have only read one or two things
0:46:54about just read you know the five links
0:46:57that we put in there feel like you will
0:46:58have covered the range of what people
0:47:00how people react to it but on this show
0:47:02what I wanted to talk about you guys can
0:47:05feel free to take whatever angle you
0:47:06want on this thing is the idea that
0:47:13people dismissed the memo that people
0:47:17like read it and where we just didn't
0:47:23didn't address it at all didn't take it
0:47:25seriously they just dismissed it out of
0:47:27hand and a lot of people were angry
0:47:29about that like why won't you engage
0:47:32with this why won't you talk about the
0:47:34ideas lots of yelling about like someone
0:47:37said something bad about it but you
0:47:39didn't even talk about any of the points
0:47:40that are in the memo like why are you
0:47:43being so dismissive and I understand
0:47:46where people are coming from with that
0:47:47but I think there is an explanation and
0:47:49it's a frustrating explanation but it's
0:47:51something you know you encounter again
0:47:53and again nothing when I read that memo
0:47:58nothing in it was new because I had seen
0:48:00every idea put forward to the memo many
0:48:03many times before because there weren't
0:48:05a lot of new I don't want any new ideas
0:48:07in there everything in there is
0:48:09something that someone else has said in
0:48:10the very similar form many many many
0:48:13many many times in the past and if you
0:48:17enter any field whatever it is whether
0:48:20it's woodworking programming diversity
0:48:24whatever it is and you lay out all your
0:48:29opinions but you are not an expert in
0:48:31the field chance especially if you say
0:48:34something controversial or you're
0:48:35addressing some point that is a point of
0:48:37contention chances are very good that
0:48:39the people who have been arguing about
0:48:41the same topic and who have studied this
0:48:43topic and you know we're just like our
0:48:45well versed in this topic chances are
0:48:47very good that they've heard everything
0:48:49you're going to say before and they've
0:48:51argued about it amongst themselves for
0:48:53years and years and years and so when
0:48:56you come out with this thing and they
0:48:58roll their eyes and dismiss you it's
0:49:01because to them it's like the nine
0:49:04hundred times someone is saying exact
0:49:05same things and they've already been
0:49:08discussed but from the outside it's like
0:49:09how why are you not addressing my points
0:49:11I feel like I have important things to
0:49:13say here and how can like it's how can
0:49:16you just dismiss me it's not a valid
0:49:18argument obviously I'm you know maybe
0:49:19I'm writing you're just afraid to
0:49:21address my block this is gonna happen no
0:49:24matter what the topic is
0:49:26and I mean and well in some ways you
0:49:29have to recognize like where you are on
0:49:32the in the range of knowledge about this
0:49:35topic am I do I have a PhD in this topic
0:49:37have I studied this topic for 50 years
0:49:39and a well-versed in all the literature
0:49:40and like or am I just somebody who
0:49:42thought about this for the past year or
0:49:44two and has some ideas like you're never
0:49:47you know and maybe he said they
0:49:49shouldn't dismiss me and what they
0:49:50should do is if someone is
0:49:52novice and says something that has been
0:49:53said before then please tell me point by
0:49:56laborious point bring me up to speed on
0:49:59the state of the art in this area of
0:50:01study that's not a reasonable request
0:50:04because then it's like everybody who
0:50:05stumbles into a math forum and says I
0:50:07just think I've you know what about this
0:50:09and have you guys ever thought of that
0:50:11they gotta teach you all the math you
0:50:12need to know to get but the point you
0:50:14realize the thing that you're saying has
0:50:15been discussed many times before and
0:50:16like either proven or disproven or
0:50:18you're the different you know like it's
0:50:20that's not a valid position I know a
0:50:23little bit about something and I have an
0:50:24opinion and here's this thing and
0:50:26they're like oh well we've seen people
0:50:28say that thing a million times we've
0:50:31already discussed it amongst ourselves
0:50:32and we already know what everyone else
0:50:34in the field thinks about this we don't
0:50:35have time to bring you up to speed on
0:50:37the this entire field of study and that
0:50:39feels like you're being dismissed and so
0:50:41I understand why people are angry the
0:50:43guy who wrote it's angry about being
0:50:44dismissed people who sympathize with
0:50:47what is in the thing are angry that that
0:50:49this thing is dismissed they feel like
0:50:51you know you know whatever it's being
0:50:53silenced no one's taking him seriously
0:50:54or whatever now first of all that's like
0:50:57that's an initial reaction but second
0:50:58all these links in the show notes sure
0:51:00that's not true that some some poor
0:51:02people went there and just went point by
0:51:06laborious point and tried mightily to
0:51:09explain and these aren't even experts in
0:51:11the field for the most part these are
0:51:12just people who didn't happen to know a
0:51:13little bit more or have a little bit of
0:51:16clearer you know train of thinking about
0:51:18this or really just even if they have no
0:51:20expertise in the field but have been
0:51:23around the block a few times and ever
0:51:24argued on the internet a few times thing
0:51:25and say listen I don't even know
0:51:27anything about this subject but I can
0:51:28tell you memo writer that you have no
0:51:30idea what you're doing
0:51:31like you know that even without knowing
0:51:35anything about this topic I can see that
0:51:37your points don't connect and you're
0:51:38doing a bad job arguing this and again
0:51:41if you if you argued on Usenet in the
0:51:4290s if you argued in person in you know
0:51:45college campuses in the 80s and 70s and
0:51:4760s like you know the person who wrote
0:51:50this memo you know they're thinking you
0:51:52know what they're saying you you
0:51:54recognize their their enthusiasm and
0:51:59fervor and like just this is the thing
0:52:02about getting old like everything slows
0:52:04down and you
0:52:05goes bad and your eyes get worse and
0:52:07just all sorts of bad things happen but
0:52:09there's something to that wisdom thing
0:52:11hey I mean that wisdom maybe it's just
0:52:12experience like that's why and all sorts
0:52:15of sci-fi things when there's a really
0:52:16old creature like they're always just
0:52:17like a like you've seen it all right and
0:52:21I know that's like the worst thing it's
0:52:23like you know that itself is a logical
0:52:25fallacy like a you know appeal to
0:52:28Authority or you should trust me because
0:52:29I know a lot about this topic but but
0:52:30it's not what it is it's more like just
0:52:31exhaustion like if pressed if the fate
0:52:35of the universe depended on it
0:52:37experts in the field could take this
0:52:39person into a room and over the course
0:52:40of the next 20 years educate them to the
0:52:42point where they understand what is
0:52:44wrong with this memo right and I feel
0:52:46like that should be the goal of a lot of
0:52:48you know if you trust that this is the
0:52:50case and I'm not just like blowing smoke
0:52:51but that the goal should be like if you
0:52:55if you read this memo and you think that
0:52:59there are some good solid points in
0:53:01there your goal should be to learn more
0:53:05about it heal until you get on the same
0:53:07page with everyone else who sees this
0:53:10for what it is or learn so much about it
0:53:13that you actually reveal the real truth
0:53:15of it that nobody knows right but I can
0:53:17tell you this memo is not the real truth
0:53:19but the nobody knows because this memo
0:53:20are the same tired ideas that have been
0:53:22discussed again and again and again by
0:53:24people in every single field related to
0:53:26this all right
0:53:27and that like again this this is the
0:53:31meta point and people like they don't
0:53:33want to hear it and there's no way to
0:53:34convince them of it or not I'm not
0:53:35really here to convince people that this
0:53:37is the case but like that's why people
0:53:39get angry about that's why it feels
0:53:41frustrating and I want I'm trying to
0:53:43stay working the topic itself because I
0:53:45want people to understand this is gonna
0:53:46be true when you come in and tell people
0:53:47about a particular kind of glue putting
0:53:50together
0:53:50remote control boats and the remote
0:53:52control bolt builders have discussions
0:53:55about this kind of glue 50 years ago and
0:53:57they just roll their eyes and be like
0:53:59look I know it seems like that kind of
0:54:00glue is the kind of glue you want to use
0:54:02I know you have a lot of information
0:54:03that you think supports your idea that
0:54:05kind of loses the trust me we've been
0:54:07debating this glue for 50 years and 25
0:54:09years ago we all came to this conclusion
0:54:11and we revisit this topic room time
0:54:13decided to see if things have changed
0:54:14but they haven't and you're wrong and we
0:54:16don't have time to explain to you
0:54:17laborious and
0:54:18again glue for model boats is much
0:54:21simpler than this topic right so that's
0:54:24that's my reaction as a tired old person
0:54:25who is beaten down by even worse things
0:54:28happening and in the world right that I
0:54:30see this I see the young person who is
0:54:33writing it I know where that person is
0:54:35coming from I know that person it and
0:54:38I've seen you know these exact arguments
0:54:41on these exact specific topics and it is
0:54:43depressing to have to have this argument
0:54:46again it's depressing this these tired
0:54:48ideas get any kind of traction and yet
0:54:51people go out of their way to do the
0:54:54hard work to explain to this person and
0:54:57to anybody who reads this something I
0:54:58like to explain to the world like you
0:55:00know isn't that your job to educate me
0:55:03about but not really but we're gonna do
0:55:05it anyway because we know it's you know
0:55:07it's it's what we have to do something
0:55:09we can't just let us stand as it is so
0:55:10many many people did you know tried to
0:55:13explain what's wrong with this and I'm
0:55:15not going to try to explain it here
0:55:16because I feel like the problem is topic
0:55:18a lot of times on the show is any kind
0:55:20of pockets like this is I think what I
0:55:21described in the hypercritical days as
0:55:23having a slow-motion argument with the
0:55:25internet one-sided slow-motion argument
0:55:26where you'll say a bunch of stuff but
0:55:28there's no one on the show who'd
0:55:29actually is there disagree with you so
0:55:31you can actually have a debate so you
0:55:32have to debate the hypothetical person
0:55:34who's out there and then you put the
0:55:36podcast out into the world man you wait
0:55:38a week and a bunch of people reply and
0:55:39say that's not what I think at all
0:55:41actually I think X Y Z and then you
0:55:43debate those people's feedback but then
0:55:45you but then what about people who don't
0:55:47care about a topic anymore it's just
0:55:48it's impossible to have a slow-motion
0:55:50debate with it with a hypothetical
0:55:51person so that's why I'm trying to take
0:55:53this meta and also because like I said I
0:55:55think there's some really good articles
0:55:56about this and to be clear this this
0:55:59manifesto is totally bogus
0:56:01the the ideas and by the unit are not
0:56:05the right ideas they are just you know
0:56:08it's explicable by all of the the sort
0:56:14of they're speckled by the experiences
0:56:17and the biases that the person who wrote
0:56:18it is bound to have had and so I think
0:56:21this is a learning opportunity for
0:56:22everybody involved why did he get fired
0:56:24do you think you should have been fired
0:56:25that's the that's the controversial
0:56:26thing yeah I don't see how you can't
0:56:29fire him because how can you have an
0:56:30employee in your company
0:56:31thinks women on average are genetically
0:56:34less capable than men to do the job like
0:56:36how can you have that person doing
0:56:37performance reviews or leading a team of
0:56:39people like how can you have that like
0:56:41if that's in people's secret heart so
0:56:43you don't know about it fine but if
0:56:44someone comes out and says this is what
0:56:46I believe you can't have that person
0:56:47doing performance you can just have a
0:56:49segregated company and then segregate by
0:56:50everybody's biases right and never mind
0:56:52that you know these are all at-will
0:56:54employees they can be fired pretty much
0:56:55every reason any reason and you know
0:56:58misogyny is not a protected class like
0:57:00it's an idea like yeah like this is
0:57:05guess what if you you uh call your boss
0:57:08a jerk every day and give him the finger
0:57:11you're also gonna get fired because
0:57:12people who call the her boss a jerk and
0:57:14give them the finger are not a protected
0:57:16class like there are so many things you
0:57:18can get fired do to get fired this of
0:57:20all the things at least is like pretty
0:57:22high-minded in terms of things you're
0:57:23getting fired for believe me you can get
0:57:25fired for way stupider stuff because
0:57:27that's the way employment works and so
0:57:29but yeah like this yeah you have to
0:57:31fight in fact it's it probably should
0:57:34have been fired faster but I'm sure you
0:57:35got to go through all the legal things
0:57:36for whatever so anyway I think I'm I'm
0:57:41starting to get into the realm of we're
0:57:43gonna start having a slow-motion
0:57:44argument but the internet I don't want
0:57:45to do that what do you two have to say
0:57:48about this I have very little to add
0:57:50because you just did a really good job
0:57:52of covering it and I also don't want to
0:57:53go into the slow-motion argument with
0:57:55the internet the common people's grasp
0:57:59on what free speech protects them from
0:58:01is about as good as their grasp on fair
0:58:06use and copyright which is not that good
0:58:08no copy intended no copyright intended
0:58:10Marco so yeah I would before making an
0:58:16argument about free speech
0:58:17I learned investigate with some basic
0:58:20research what free speech actually gets
0:58:23you and what is actually an assurance of
0:58:25what it actually means and what it
0:58:27doesn't mean and yeah John I think coda
0:58:29very well I I I have to admit I did not
0:58:33fully read James's memo or whatever it
0:58:37was manifesto whatever it was you know
0:58:39life is short and I could tell pretty
0:58:41pretty soon into it this was not going
0:58:43to be worth the
0:58:44I'm been reading it so I didn't I
0:58:46decided to do anything else with my time
0:58:48just had to read this honestly
0:58:51rearend openings memo on what he thinks
0:58:55about people so I decided not to yeah
0:58:58same here he provided a summary at the
0:59:00top have Elly called it a tldr because
0:59:03he's in Milano
0:59:04but yeah the summon summer yet was hot
0:59:05like you don't have to read the temp
0:59:06ages reading the five six point summary
0:59:08or whatever it's a it is a fit mean he
0:59:10wrote the summary himself it is a fair
0:59:12encapsulation of the points made and the
0:59:14things you could look at only the
0:59:15summary and see
0:59:17yep no I've seen this idiot before yep I
0:59:19understand where he's coming from yeah
0:59:21no III I got a bet that far then I was
0:59:23like yeah this is and then once I
0:59:25thought that was the memo and then once
0:59:27I saw that was simply the summarize like
0:59:29oh my god close tab I would also say
0:59:34that I think it's worth it's worth
0:59:37Google doing some introspection here
0:59:40about their own culture and and about
0:59:42what is it about Google's culture that
0:59:45would hire somebody who holds these
0:59:48ideas that would foster someone's
0:59:51intellectual development who would hold
0:59:52his ideas and that would that would make
0:59:54somebody think that it would be a good
0:59:56idea and would not get them fired too
0:59:56idea and would not get them fired too
1:00:00actually write this and circulate this
1:00:01within the company like that reveals I
1:00:03think cultural problems in that company
1:00:06which should be a surprise to nobody but
1:00:08some good aspects of culture to because
1:00:11that the fact that he felt like he could
1:00:12say this shows that they have a culture
1:00:15where people feel like they can express
1:00:17themselves now again like a culture
1:00:20where you can express yourselves doesn't
1:00:22mean you could say you know what I think
1:00:24we should eat babies and be surprised
1:00:26about people like gasp right here let's
1:00:28give them back to the baby eating right
1:00:29it's good to have an open culture but
1:00:32you also have to be aware of you know
1:00:35what people might think of what you say
1:00:37right and a lot of companies people
1:00:42would be afraid to say anything remotely
1:00:44about controversial but like at any HR
1:00:47policy like you know the HR policy is
1:00:48like for example imagine apple gonna the
1:00:50Apple Park thing like oh people aren't
1:00:51gonna have as many offices right if
1:00:53Apple had a culture where everybody was
1:00:55terrified to make any kind of complaint
1:00:57about her I kind of wish we still had
1:00:59offices I don't want to be an open
1:01:00office space right that would be a bad
1:01:02company culture you want to have a
1:01:04company culture where if people are
1:01:05super pissed about not having an office
1:01:06they feel like they can say hey I don't
1:01:09want to lose my office Apple I don't
1:01:11like the new Apple Park and complain
1:01:13right cuz that and just being a general
1:01:16adult in the world you could understand
1:01:17if you do it in a constructive way this
1:01:20is a a reasonable avenue of feedback
1:01:22within the company and a good company
1:01:24culture encourages people to do that
1:01:26because you don't want them to be
1:01:27secretly hating you and then quitting
1:01:28like you want you want to hear what the
1:01:30employees have to say but if their
1:01:31complaint is I don't want to work next
1:01:33to a woman you should at least be aware
1:01:36enough to know if you say that they're
1:01:38gonna get rid of you because you can't
1:01:40have an employee like that it's like how
1:01:42is that any different from offices if
1:01:44you can't see the difference like start
1:01:46their finger what's different about
1:01:48saying I prefer offices to cubicles
1:01:50versus I can't be next to a woman when I
1:01:52work like figure it out like work on it
1:01:54like I feel you know those are my first
1:01:56and only comments about this which was
1:01:59snarky granted but you know I'm allowed
1:02:00some snark on Twitter was like the the
1:02:03irony of someone at Google writing this
1:02:06memo who so clearly has not even done
1:02:09the most cursory google search on the
1:02:10topic
1:02:12look at all these things he's citing we
1:02:13were like no I mean actually you know
1:02:15actually learning about the topic his
1:02:17Google's right there you can Google
1:02:19yourself every one of these points and
1:02:22find you know everything about them and
1:02:25why they're BS like everywhere instead
1:02:27the only thing he googled for was you
1:02:29know cherry picked things that he thinks
1:02:31supports his ideas and that he can
1:02:33string together into this completely
1:02:35broken chain of logic in the other
1:02:37anyway I don't know you can read the
1:02:38links to I realize that but like but
1:02:40it's right there like no time it hasn't
1:02:42been easier for you to educate yourself
1:02:43about this topic without having to be
1:02:45led by the nose by people more versed in
1:02:48the field like everything's right there
1:02:49the person works for Google and just you
1:02:52know that that just blew my mind that
1:02:54you know sort of the the in curiosity
1:02:56and the being content and you know as
1:02:59the economists response the links we'll
1:03:01put in there that the motivated
1:03:02reasoning like that no amount of access
1:03:04to the world's information can avoid
1:03:06that yeah the thing that struck me about
1:03:08this was the little bit of feedback we
1:03:11got about it which was a couple of
1:03:14people saying please don't talk about
1:03:17this but here's some anonymous feedback
1:03:19about why I think this guy was on the
1:03:21money this was amazing to me this was
1:03:24like we actually got beautiful pieces of
1:03:26feedback about from people who were
1:03:29basically yelling at us in support of
1:03:31this James whole before we ever talked
1:03:34about it right right it just happened
1:03:35and they knew in the future there would
1:03:37be an episode of ATP recorded and people
1:03:38said I know you're gonna want to talk
1:03:40about this but don't well we did sorry
1:03:43there's you don't talk about this but
1:03:46here's what I think and and you know if
1:03:50anyone thinks otherwise that's just that
1:03:51that's them silencing us yadda yadda
1:03:53yadda blah blah blah it was it was more
1:03:56than what the thing was if it was just
1:03:57one individual okay fine but this
1:04:02happened two or three times and it was
1:04:04the same thing both times please guys
1:04:07don't talk about this but if you do you
1:04:10should consider the following my example
1:04:14of like the difference between I like
1:04:16office instead of cubes versus I can't
1:04:18work next to a woman neither one of
1:04:20those things in the memo I'm giving
1:04:21hypothetical examples to understand
1:04:23different classes of things that you
1:04:24might want feedback yeah but
1:04:26actually getting back to Marco's point
1:04:27like I think I think the fact this
1:04:29person felt free to say this is a good
1:04:31reflection on Google's culture of
1:04:33letting people feel like they are free
1:04:35to give feedback the fact that this
1:04:37particular you know that are the to have
1:04:40open discussions the content of this
1:04:42shows it doesn't reflect poorly on
1:04:44Google other than their hiring practices
1:04:46or not being aware that this is this is
1:04:48happening and and you know like this is
1:04:50on the person who wrote the thing not so
1:04:51much in Google if you want to place
1:04:53blame on it's not the culture that let
1:04:55him post the memo because that is more
1:04:57of just sort of like lack of
1:04:59self-awareness you know not
1:05:00understanding that other people exist in
1:05:03the world and how they might react to
1:05:05what you had to say right but this is
1:05:09true of a lot of tech companies that you
1:05:10know the if the interview is all coding
1:05:13on a whiteboard and you know solving
1:05:17brain teasers and making sure you had a
1:05:19good education and making sure you are
1:05:21recently personable and polite and then
1:05:23most critically making sure that the
1:05:25people who you interview with say oh
1:05:27yeah I could work with this person yeah
1:05:29seems like a person because you'll
1:05:31people will say oh I could work in this
1:05:33person he's just like me yeah I'm I am a
1:05:37dude who was a CS major who likes video
1:05:39games and blah blah yeah not like if
1:05:42that's all there is in your interview is
1:05:43technical stuff and and brain teasers
1:05:46and education and work history and do
1:05:49you feel like you could work with this
1:05:50person it's very easy to get into you
1:05:52know - speaking of an echo chamber which
1:05:54in all other complaints this thing is
1:05:55very easy to get into a situation where
1:05:56people hire other people that they're
1:05:58comfortable with and so you may never
1:06:00dig deeper to say oh and by the way
1:06:02again this is not in the memo this is my
1:06:04silly example that's supposed to make
1:06:05you you know realize anyway if you have
1:06:09any problem working on a team with a
1:06:10woman
1:06:11maybe you can't ask that legally I don't
1:06:13even know like there's all sorts of
1:06:14weird things about hiring what you can
1:06:16and can't ask but figuring that out like
1:06:19if the person says oh I would never work
1:06:21on a team with the woman don't hire that
1:06:24person right don't hire that person and
1:06:27if you never figure out that that's an
1:06:29again that's not that's not what this
1:06:31person said I'm trying to give it a
1:06:32extreme example I know people get
1:06:33confused by that like it's a
1:06:34hypothetical extreme example right if
1:06:37you're not sort and figuring that out if
1:06:39you
1:06:39have an interview process that weeds
1:06:40that out you'll never have a chance of
1:06:43waking up to much more subtle things
1:06:44which is like maybe this person has some
1:06:47slightly less well examined ideas about
1:06:51gender and diversity and like I don't
1:06:54think this person is super terrible I
1:06:55heard they were vaguely involved in
1:06:57gamergate but who knows I'm the headman
1:06:58following this but anyway I think the
1:07:01ideas in this memo or ideas that a lot
1:07:03of smart white dudes basically who have
1:07:09never faced any sort of oppression based
1:07:12on their gender or a race end up having
1:07:17not because they're bad people or
1:07:18they're evil or whatever but it's like
1:07:20again there's a reason all these ideas
1:07:22have come up before it is not it's not a
1:07:25logical conclusion but it's like you
1:07:26find yourself going down these alleys
1:07:28you find yourself having these thoughts
1:07:29you find yourself coming to these
1:07:30conclusions and especially if you have a
1:07:32slightly rebellious bent there is
1:07:36something for you to rebel against which
1:07:38is all these this diversity ideas and
1:07:40like just there's a reason it's common I
1:07:43don't I don't think these people this
1:07:45person is you know an aberration or a
1:07:47terrible person it's just they're they
1:07:50have they have some things to learn they
1:07:52have some living to do they have some
1:07:54experience to gain and it you are able
1:07:56to get that experience and live that
1:07:58life and learn and change because most
1:08:00people who are on the other side of this
1:08:03started out somewhere more like this
1:08:05memo writer and changed and learn things
1:08:08like that they're not born like oh I'm a
1:08:10perfect angel from the beginning and I
1:08:11know everything and I don't have any
1:08:12prejudices and biases no especially if
1:08:14they're they are simply have similar
1:08:15backgrounds to this person
1:08:17they had to walk that same road and
1:08:19figure things out and stick their foot
1:08:21in the mouth and do stupid stuff and
1:08:23learn things the hard way right no we're
1:08:26not super enlightened wonderful we know
1:08:27everything in the beginning like my hope
1:08:29for this person is that he grows and
1:08:33evolves and you know comes you know the
1:08:38people mean to say that he grows up but
1:08:40like it's part it's not he's an organ
1:08:41adult but you know just you don't stop
1:08:43growing up when you become quote/unquote
1:08:45an adult you you keep growing up
1:08:47throughout your whole life hopefully and
1:08:48that's that's my hope for this person
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1:10:53[Music]
1:10:57Apple apparently has said their
1:10:59budgeting a billion dollars that's B 1
1:11:02billion for original TV shows and movies
1:11:05because apparently that's the thing we
1:11:08need so I'm not sure what to make of
1:11:11this like in and of itself I have no
1:11:13issues with Apple trying to get into the
1:11:15content busy business excuse me but it's
1:11:22so far they have not shown us that
1:11:24they're terribly good at doing these
1:11:25sort of things so I don't know Marco
1:11:29what do you think about this so with the
1:11:33actual budget and like how it compares
1:11:35to other services and everything people
1:11:38have commentary on whether this is
1:11:39enough money whether it's a lot whether
1:11:41it's a little I don't know I don't know
1:11:43enough about the business of TV and
1:11:45movie production to even know what this
1:11:46buys you all I do know is that so far
1:11:49apple's original content for video which
1:11:52for some reason appears on Apple music
1:11:54is bizarre at best and mostly pretty bad
1:11:59whatever has caused them to produce what
1:12:02they've produced so far I think is the
1:12:04same thing that caused them to do the
1:12:06whole like you know u2 finger-touch
1:12:08thing and then shoving songs of
1:12:09innocence into everyone's libraries and
1:12:11you know it's like they seem to have
1:12:14this like most of what they make pretty
1:12:18cool and is pretty well considered and
1:12:20then there's like the certain like blind
1:12:22spot that they get around certain types
1:12:25of content or celebrity things which
1:12:28which everything they make seems to be
1:12:29profoundly uncool and just fall on its
1:12:31face a lot of the various like you know
1:12:34celebrity tie-ins they've done much of
1:12:36the efforts they've tried to do around
1:12:38Apple music sometimes like the weird
1:12:41intro videos to the conference's stuff
1:12:42like that like a lot of the stuff just
1:12:45just seems profoundly uncool and just
1:12:47flops certainly I think Planet of the
1:12:49apps' qualifies big-time for that list
1:12:52and I suspect the carpool karaoke
1:12:55version they're doing I haven't seen it
1:12:57the early impressions of it are
1:12:59similarly not very positive
1:13:01so I whatever is is causing these things
1:13:05to be greenlit and to then be terrible
1:13:08I hope they figure
1:13:10out and fix that for Apple to become a
1:13:13company that represents bad content I
1:13:16think that hurts the whole brand so it's
1:13:18a big risk they're taking here and so
1:13:20far it seems like it's not paying off at
1:13:22all so far it seems like it's actually
1:13:24harming them if they do it right it
1:13:27could be great they could be you know
1:13:29they could produce things as good as
1:13:30what Netflix and Amazon on HBO are
1:13:32making like they could make great
1:13:34original content but they've made such a
1:13:36bad original content so far that it's
1:13:38it's just kind of hard to see how they
1:13:40get from here to there I think the last
1:13:42time we talked about this I made the
1:13:44same point because I found it occurring
1:13:46to me again I'm like oh I think I talked
1:13:47about that right but like if you if you
1:13:49fund content you shouldn't like other
1:13:54than some vague sort of overarching
1:13:57theme like Disney in general makes kind
1:14:00of family-friendly stuff you shouldn't
1:14:03be influencing the things that you make
1:14:05so everything that Apple makes doesn't
1:14:07have to be an appellate thing obviously
1:14:08planet of the apps is super Apple II
1:14:10carpool karaoke not really aptly so
1:14:13that's that's an okay one but you know
1:14:15HBO makes all sorts of shows make
1:14:17Western sci-fi fantasy drama like just
1:14:20comedies stand-up comedy specials
1:14:22documentaries like you know insofar as
1:14:26there is an HBO brand the brand is good
1:14:29television for adults right Disney is
1:14:32like family-friendly stuff Marvel is you
1:14:35know it's got the superhero movies like
1:14:37start the Star Wars like just like there
1:14:39there are overarching brands for things
1:14:40but in general you don't want Apple to
1:14:43make like Apple stuff and that that is
1:14:47something they have to get out from
1:14:48under because almost everything Apple
1:14:49does is an Apple thing and if you're
1:14:51making content you have to basically
1:14:54just be the money people here's the big
1:14:56bucket of money then get a bunch of
1:14:58people who know how to find talent and
1:15:02you know develop the shows and that's
1:15:03what they're doing they hired a bunch of
1:15:04people who had previously done this same
1:15:07job for for other people like that hard
1:15:09the guy from Sony television or
1:15:11something is but had a bunch of things
1:15:12under his belt and they hurt somebody
1:15:14else like it's it's a different kind of
1:15:17business and it's not an easy business
1:15:18because it's like how you know how do I
1:15:21know what's the next Breaking Bad and
1:15:23what's the next planet of the apps like
1:15:26can I tell the other ministry in those
1:15:27two when they're being pitched to me
1:15:28right if I get a pitch for the next
1:15:30Breaking Bad can I actually develop it
1:15:33give them the right amount of money and
1:15:34get the right talent involved like you
1:15:36know it this was said about the phone
1:15:38business apples not just going to walk
1:15:39in the entertainment business is a
1:15:41similarly difficult problem but it's
1:15:43much farther from Apple's wheelhouse and
1:15:46Apple can't use all its old tricks of
1:15:48we're gonna build every show like we do
1:15:50an Apple product nope nope the shows
1:15:52can't be in Apple products some shows
1:15:54have to be the opposite of an Apple
1:15:56product they have to be you know you
1:15:59know intense and involve sex and
1:16:01violence or they have to be goofy
1:16:03comedies you know or like things that
1:16:07just don't fit in the Apple way and
1:16:09again you can have a brand you can be a
1:16:12you know like Disney or like Pixar and
1:16:16have a brand and and put everything
1:16:18under that umbrella but its competitors
1:16:20brands are in general content that
1:16:23wouldn't air network television
1:16:25expensive television made for adults so
1:16:28this that's kind of what Amazon and
1:16:30Netflix and HBO have been doing they're
1:16:34all spending more money on it than Apple
1:16:35still but just fine like I was just
1:16:37getting started you know Netflix is
1:16:38budget is 7 billion compared to apples
1:16:40budget of 1 billion I think that's fine
1:16:42Apple should not be putting 7 billion
1:16:44towards something it doesn't know how to
1:16:45do yet right so you know figure out how
1:16:47to do it Amazon's 4.5 billion is mostly
1:16:50their estimates from this article will
1:16:52link in the show notes HBO is 2 billion
1:16:54H was got a lot of bang for its buck
1:16:56because they've they apparently really
1:16:57know how to develop shows they don't
1:16:59make a lot of shows but the ones they
1:17:01make a pretty good hit ratio and their
1:17:03hits are really big hits I'm doing it
1:17:05for quite some time like they developed
1:17:07a skill over a very long time yeah and
1:17:09and you know it's a set it's you know
1:17:11it's people it's it's sets different
1:17:13people who know different people who
1:17:15know how to get things develop know what
1:17:16to buy what not to buy know how to make
1:17:18sure that the things produced in the
1:17:21same way that Apple knows how to like oh
1:17:23I have an idea for product but how do I
1:17:24make that product what people that we
1:17:25need to make that product a reality so
1:17:28that it actually works and what partners
1:17:29do I have to do like it's a difficult
1:17:31business um getting back to the broader
1:17:35issue of this thing like the reason
1:17:37Apple is doing
1:17:37as we've discussed in the passes if the
1:17:40Apple wants to be in this business of
1:17:41selling you video over the Internet
1:17:43everybody else is doing it it is an
1:17:46important differentiator like eventually
1:17:48if everybody else has original content
1:17:51like this is why I get Hulu this is why
1:17:52I get Netflix like because of these
1:17:54specific shows and Apple doesn't have
1:17:56any of those it has no more
1:17:59differentiator like other than I bought
1:18:02a bunch of movie on iTunes and unless I
1:18:04go and you know remove the DRM oh I need
1:18:07I need an Apple TV to to view them very
1:18:11quickly these streaming services have
1:18:13stopped being differentiated by the fact
1:18:15that wow I can watch a video over the
1:18:17internet cuz they can all do that and
1:18:19they all have clients if this is another
1:18:20thing all clients everywhere this is a
1:18:22question someone had on Twitter I think
1:18:23maybe directed us or maybe someone else
1:18:25is like am I gonna need an Apple TV to
1:18:27watch this original TV content or will I
1:18:29be able to watch it not on an Apple TV
1:18:31could I watch it in a web browser could
1:18:34I you know couldn't watch it is it built
1:18:36into my television and the answer so far
1:18:38is haplin's apples been like well no you
1:18:40can watch them your iPad your iPhone and
1:18:42your Apple TV no place else can you
1:18:44watch it's not built into your TV you
1:18:46can't watch from a web browser you can't
1:18:47watch it on Windows and it's like what
1:18:49nobody else is doing that if you want to
1:18:51watch Netflix you can watch it
1:18:52everywhere you go like a Netflix on your
1:18:54on your wristwatch I mean you know it's
1:18:55it's everywhere nothing doesn't have
1:18:57Netflix on it that's the strategy and
1:18:59you do if you want to compete so that's
1:19:02the other thing I'm looking for is will
1:19:03Apple go iPod on this and say yes we're
1:19:05gonna make the iPod for Windows yes
1:19:07we're gonna let you watch whatever
1:19:09they're gonna and I have to divorce her
1:19:10from Apple music obviously - because
1:19:12it's silly to continue with that charade
1:19:13right if they really want to play with
1:19:17their big competitors Netflix Amazon HBO
1:19:20Hulu everybody else who's got some kind
1:19:22of is funding some kind of original
1:19:24content table stakes is I can view it
1:19:26anywhere I want and the original content
1:19:29is actually worth getting the service
1:19:30for and they've got a long way to go to
1:19:32get there someone pointed out that maybe
1:19:34you can watch it on iTunes in Windows
1:19:36probably if I joined the Windows
1:19:40probably not the idea of viewing
1:19:41experience and we're all rooting for
1:19:42iTunes to die anyway right now I feel
1:19:44like this is one of those things - like
1:19:46for for this to succeed you have to
1:19:49really go all in on it
1:19:51you
1:19:51have to really you know like you were
1:19:53saying like you this right now it seems
1:19:55like these original content efforts are
1:19:57just he's kind of like side projects
1:20:00that are a little bit promoted a little
1:20:03bit funded a little bit prioritized and
1:20:05they're kind of these things that are
1:20:07made to try to boost Apple music buzz
1:20:10and subscriptions which is totally wrong
1:20:12like that's not how you compete in the
1:20:14music space you don't compete there with
1:20:15video services that with with a two or
1:20:18three original content lines like that's
1:20:20not at all how that works but I feel
1:20:23like if Apple really wants to do this
1:20:24really do it like really go all-in make
1:20:27it a big thing maybe by somebody like
1:20:29Netflix or HBO or something like really
1:20:31go all out and really do it I just I
1:20:34don't see the value in kind of kind of
1:20:37half butting it like they've been doing
1:20:38seemingly so far like why do a little
1:20:42bit of this kind of buried in this
1:20:43product that no one's looking for video
1:20:45in either don't do it or do it right
1:20:48because maybe like the slow start like I
1:20:50don't know what the budget was before
1:20:51but again 1 billion is a smaller budget
1:20:53like they're they're obviously getting
1:20:54serious about it and hot trying to hire
1:20:56more of the right people but it's a slow
1:20:57start like they're not they're not
1:20:59coming in on day one and said we're
1:21:01gonna put 10 billion dollars because
1:21:02they just blow it they blow that 10
1:21:04billion they have no idea what to do
1:21:05with that money like it's not so I mean
1:21:07the slow start would be better if the
1:21:09few little things they made were
1:21:10actually good even if they're weird
1:21:11appendages to Apple music but I mean the
1:21:14Apple music thing I think it's learning
1:21:16experience it who knows maybe the
1:21:17carpool karaoke is gonna be insanely
1:21:18popular just because we don't watch it
1:21:20like I know what carpool karaoke is
1:21:21people seem to like it it's you know
1:21:24even if it's not my particular thing
1:21:26sometimes they're amusing right and the
1:21:28reality show was a flop but like you
1:21:31know reality some reality shows or hits
1:21:32some aren't it wasn't it wasn't a crazy
1:21:34idea they just did just blew it they
1:21:36didn't do it they didn't make something
1:21:37that people really want to watch
1:21:38probably again because I feel like they
1:21:40they want to have some kind of Apple
1:21:42news we're Apple what kind of synergy do
1:21:44we have with like no no energy Breaking
1:21:47Bad has no synergy but the people who
1:21:48fund it it's just a good show you just
1:21:51need to make stuff that people want to
1:21:54watch and it's really really hard and I
1:21:56can't help you with it you don't know
1:21:57how to do it either but hiring people
1:21:59who have done it in the past is a good
1:22:00start you know that's a difficulty about
1:22:02a lot of these things like again Apple
1:22:04very small teams small numbers of people
1:22:07if one or two or three people you have
1:22:10in charge of this with the most power
1:22:12are gonna have a big influence and if
1:22:14you end up hiring the wrong people you
1:22:16know then that's bad you get a
1:22:21Papermaster situation or even if you
1:22:24just get like a forestall can't get
1:22:26along with I've and you have two can one
1:22:27of them it's you know these are big
1:22:31companies with a lot of money at stake
1:22:32but in the end it comes down to just a
1:22:33small number of people so Marco you uh
1:22:36blogged for the first time in forever
1:22:39recently I'm very proud of you this is
1:22:41very exciting does it yeah it counts it
1:22:45turns out that market org is still a
1:22:47thing it hadn't been a thing for almost
1:22:50three months but it is still a thing
1:22:52however Marco giveth and Marco taketh
1:22:55away what happened to send to watch an
1:22:58overcast basically I had to pull it I've
1:23:01already covered this pretty well both in
1:23:03the blog post and in under the radar
1:23:04about two weeks ago so I don't want to
1:23:06cover it too much here but basically I
1:23:10was using a crazy hack that would allow
1:23:13me to use good audio api's on the Apple
1:23:16watch and watch iOS for that doesn't
1:23:18work anymore so now the only way to
1:23:20write this feature is to stop using the
1:23:22good audio api's that allow my process
1:23:24to keep running and monitoring with AV
1:23:26audio player and the only way to make
1:23:29this happen now is to use the old WK
1:23:32audio file player watch playback API
1:23:35which basically is used in practice by I
1:23:40think almost nothing Apple doesn't seem
1:23:43to use it for anything which is probably
1:23:45why it's so incomplete and buggy and
1:23:47it's it's it's a much larger more
1:23:51complex pile of hacks because it
1:23:53involves transferring control of the
1:23:55playback to the system and your app
1:23:57stops running in the background and then
1:23:59this the system will wake you up
1:24:01occasionally maybe if you are lucky when
1:24:04things happen like the queue runs out or
1:24:06the track is over or something else but
1:24:08that's about it it forces a certain type
1:24:10of interaction with the now playing
1:24:11glance that does not work at all for
1:24:13podcasts it makes it very bad experience
1:24:16for podcasts so things like
1:24:18if you hit the seek forward button it
1:24:20immediately stops playing the current
1:24:22podcast and either move to the next one
1:24:24if there is one or just stops its
1:24:27instead of like skipping forward 15
1:24:28seconds or whatever like you actually
1:24:30want things like that there's all sorts
1:24:32of little shortcomings like that this
1:24:34API was designed for music it was it was
1:24:37clearly designed so that somebody you
1:24:40know somebody like a Spotify or
1:24:41something could make a sync to Apple
1:24:43watch feature and have the Apple watch
1:24:45play a playlist of music when you apply
1:24:47the same API to podcasts there are so
1:24:49many shortcomings and bugs and weird
1:24:51behavior to the system that are just not
1:24:53at all a podcast listeners want or need
1:24:55that it makes for a very bad experience
1:24:56so early on when I was developing the
1:24:59sin to watch feature I was basing it on
1:25:03this API because this seemed to be the
1:25:04only way to do it and I actually decided
1:25:07to not ship it like I spent months on it
1:25:09and after fighting with his API over and
1:25:12over again I decided it was so bad I
1:25:14can't ship this feature so I didn't I
1:25:16found a bunch of bugs I you know talked
1:25:18to people and Apple to make sure they
1:25:20knew about them and everything and you
1:25:21know how many apps are using this of all
1:25:24the of all the needs that watch OS has
1:25:26like this might satisfy like ten apps
1:25:29maybe like almost nobody needs this
1:25:30feature so I can understand why this
1:25:32doesn't seem to be a priority for them
1:25:33to to really improve audio playback API
1:25:36was in the launch especially because
1:25:37this one probably works ok enough for
1:25:41music syncing so it's really only
1:25:42podcast an audiobook another long-form
1:25:45audio syncing they would actually need
1:25:46this my hack but that allowed me to use
1:25:50a the audio player allowed me to ship a
1:25:52version of this feature that was
1:25:55minimally acceptable it still wasn't
1:25:58good there's still lots of other
1:25:59problems with the feature like how long
1:26:01it takes to transfer data how I as the
1:26:04as like basically as the programmer and
1:26:08that therefore you as the user don't
1:26:10have any indication of whether it
1:26:12transfers in progress or how long it's
1:26:14going to take like the reason that's not
1:26:16exposed in the UI is that I don't have
1:26:18that information the API doesn't provide
1:26:19that information so there's there's all
1:26:22sorts of shortcomings in the api's and
1:26:24the technical limitations of these
1:26:26platforms most of which are very
1:26:29understandable because most of us show
1:26:30like yeah you know what the watch is in
1:26:31low
1:26:31our device you know it needs to squeeze
1:26:34every bit of power it can out of the you
1:26:36know tiny little parts and batteries
1:26:38that it has most of these are very
1:26:40understandable things but the reality is
1:26:42it was barely possible to make a barely
1:26:46acceptable version of this feature and
1:26:47now that the audio API has changed and
1:26:50has forced me to go back to the old one
1:26:51that I deemed unship well you know
1:26:54probably nine months ago when I first
1:26:56tried to do this that is now that has
1:26:58now made this feature unship evil again
1:27:00unfortunately I've already shipped it so
1:27:03so I had to remove this feature and and
1:27:06that's never easy that's never an easy
1:27:08decision to make
1:27:09it's not a very popular thing to do you
1:27:12know I'm getting you know a good number
1:27:14of one-star reviews from it which I
1:27:15expected you know that was part of the
1:27:17calculus to do it I had to weigh that
1:27:19but you know I removed the feature now
1:27:21and if I can bring it back in the future
1:27:24you know as the api's and the hardware
1:27:27mature I would love to do that because I
1:27:29already wrote most of the hard stuff to
1:27:31do this but there is simply no good way
1:27:35to play podcasts in the background on
1:27:37the Apple watch in watch OS 4 and
1:27:40hopefully that'll change over time do
1:27:42you have any hopes of them changing it
1:27:45like maybe if Apple heads offline watch
1:27:48play backup podcast to their podcast app
1:27:50do you know do you have any info like oh
1:27:53you know not this release this release
1:27:55you're stuck but next year they'll be
1:27:58updating always the API is to be podcast
1:28:00savvy because I guess or not you know
1:28:01not obscure like it seemed not they're
1:28:04obviously not as important as music
1:28:05right but in this release they did the
1:28:07thing lets you mess with the music
1:28:08during your workout in an easier way so
1:28:10they understand that people are
1:28:11controlling audio playback on their
1:28:14watches so do you think next year you
1:28:17know do you have expectations that wo
1:28:18receive like Oh new API is that make it
1:28:21possible to do this again or you just
1:28:22like have no real hope of them
1:28:25addressing this because it doesn't seem
1:28:26like a thing they care about well
1:28:28there's still a lot of technical
1:28:30limitations so with with the new like
1:28:32music syncing there's been much choice
1:28:34for they demoed during the keynote that
1:28:35there's this kind of like new automatic
1:28:37music syncing kind of thing where you
1:28:39where it just kind of automatically can
1:28:41can like sync a playlist you know for
1:28:43you based on what you like a basement
1:28:45you slice it over
1:28:45where else and so I think the real like
1:28:49the way this seems to work is overnight
1:28:52while it's charging on the charger it's
1:28:54doing these data transfers that are that
1:28:55could be large and time-consuming so
1:28:57that way doesn't have to worry about you
1:28:59know speed being low or about using too
1:29:01much power for a podcast like feature to
1:29:05work that's probably how it really has
1:29:07to be because you know problem number
1:29:08one which I never solved was it's too
1:29:11slow to transfer data to to the watch
1:29:13and it all sorts of crazy hacks like
1:29:14I've heard a whole transcoding engine
1:29:16that would Transco to a lower bitrate
1:29:18and then send it because that was
1:29:20actually faster than just sending it to
1:29:21begin with you know its original size so
1:29:24solving that speed problem that's a huge
1:29:27problem and it's going to take I think
1:29:30multiple generations probably of the
1:29:32hardware being improved before that's no
1:29:35longer a big problem so as long as they
1:29:38transfer the watch is still slow syncing
1:29:40podcasts to it is always going to be
1:29:42awkward or clunky these podcasts don't
1:29:45work the same ways music with music you
1:29:47can sync a playlist overnight and that's
1:29:49it you're done like you're probably not
1:29:51going to want to change that like in the
1:29:54middle of the day by sending all of a
1:29:56sudden 60 Meg's of new information to it
1:29:58that you really want to be available
1:30:00right the second right now whereas with
1:30:02podcast that happens an episode comes
1:30:04out like you know if this worked the
1:30:06same way that we that have worked in the
1:30:07iPod days back when podcast first came
1:30:09out a decade ago the idea of an episode
1:30:12coming out and then you having to wait
1:30:14till you got home to sync it to your
1:30:16iPod and listen to it maybe the next day
1:30:18that was how we did things back then but
1:30:21now things are better now we don't live
1:30:23in you know the Stone Age anymore now
1:30:25when a new episode comes out you expect
1:30:28to be able to hit play immediately and
1:30:30start playing it and so to have that
1:30:31with to have that kind of experience
1:30:33with the watch with podcasts the whole
1:30:37you you can't wait for it to sync
1:30:38overnight you can't wait for like oh
1:30:40next I'm I plug in the watch I have some
1:30:41kind of system to automatically sync
1:30:43stuff over while charging overnight like
1:30:44that that's not a good enough experience
1:30:46what you need is something that you can
1:30:47say I want to listen to this right now
1:30:48go and have it be not a significant
1:30:51amount of time before you can do that I
1:30:53think long-term the way this is solved
1:30:55is the watch becomes a full-blown client
1:30:58of the app
1:30:59it's own downloads and its own sync to
1:31:01the servers and is no longer you know a
1:31:04tethered to the phone app as much as it
1:31:06is now long term that is probably the
1:31:08right solution but that requires large
1:31:11advances in the hardware and software
1:31:13before that's possible you know that
1:31:14would require first of all the the
1:31:16rumored cellular watch or at least you
1:31:19know more frequent Wi-Fi connectivity
1:31:20whatever you know that would require
1:31:22things that we don't have today really
1:31:23to do that to that very well the other
1:31:25thing is on the software side I don't
1:31:28know the the fine detail of this in fact
1:31:29I bet Steve trout and Smith probably
1:31:31knows a lot more about this than I do
1:31:32when when you write apps for the i phone
1:31:36module using are the exact same API that
1:31:40Apple uses the incentive is pretty
1:31:42strong for Apple to keep those things
1:31:44up-to-date because they use them too so
1:31:46if there's like a bug in UI kit it's
1:31:49probably gonna affect Apple also in
1:31:51their own apps and their own development
1:31:52so they have a pretty strong incentive
1:31:54to fix that whereas on the watch
1:31:57developers have only have only had
1:31:59access to watch kit we don't have
1:32:01straight UI kit it seems I think I'm not
1:32:05positive on this but I think Apple is
1:32:07using lower level api's Apple seems to
1:32:10be using something like UI kit to make
1:32:11their apps on the watch but we
1:32:14developers are using this kind of subset
1:32:16then that we're kind of being forced to
1:32:18use and we can't use like the real API
1:32:20is and the watch and so what we are
1:32:23using Apple doesn't seem to have a very
1:32:25strong incentive to fix what we use
1:32:29because I don't think they're using it
1:32:31and especially like the the audio
1:32:34playback API is that you know the what I
1:32:37have seen so far with with the
1:32:40limitations and bugs that they have I
1:32:42don't think Apple uses any of them on
1:32:45the watch that we use like I honestly
1:32:48don't like at Apple is probably using AV
1:32:50foundation directly on the watch but we
1:32:53don't have access to that in any kind of
1:32:55way that would that we can actually
1:32:55background on the watch we only have for
1:32:58grant access to some of those things and
1:33:00background access to this awful wk
1:33:02audiophile player thing that has all the
1:33:04bugs so until that changes like until
1:33:08until apples using the same things we
1:33:10are using on the watch I don't think
1:33:12it's ever going to be
1:33:13amazing development platform to make
1:33:15advanced
1:33:16type of apps like a podcast player I
1:33:18hope that changes I really do but so far
1:33:22that's it seems like we are using this
1:33:25kind of these kind of like you know baby
1:33:26API is these like training wheel a P I
1:33:28is in the watch that existed at first
1:33:30because it was just so limited and so
1:33:32low powered and like the first watch kit
1:33:34was this huge hack that were the thing
1:33:35around the phone and was kind of beamed
1:33:37over so like it made sense then a little
1:33:39bit but now like I want real API access
1:33:43in the watch I want I want like low
1:33:44level you know UI frameworks and
1:33:47full-blown audio frameworks and exactly
1:33:50what we have on the phone in regards to
1:33:51like you know what I mentioned earlier
1:33:53are like about how in in when the watch
1:33:56crazy API if a user hits next track or
1:33:59forward it just stops a podcast if it's
1:34:02playing in the background like the
1:34:04podcast player on the watch can't do
1:34:06what we've done on iOS for ages which is
1:34:08interpret the remote control event
1:34:10manually interpret the event that is
1:34:12sent from a headphone clicker or the
1:34:14lock screen or your car Bluetooth or
1:34:17whatever that says next track and
1:34:18instead of doing next track on iOS we
1:34:21can say oh we'll just move it forward 15
1:34:23seconds or we can respond whoever we
1:34:24want to that on the watch none of those
1:34:26api's are there we have no way to
1:34:28interact with the remote controls we
1:34:30have no way to set what appears on the
1:34:33now playing scream beast besides a very
1:34:35very limited thing with this crazy watch
1:34:37with this crazy audio player API you can
1:34:39kind of set it but then it's kind of
1:34:41unreliable even basic stuff I found like
1:34:43if you hit pause it doesn't pause like
1:34:47it's half a time like it just two
1:34:49seconds after you hit play or pause the
1:34:51button flips over back the other way
1:34:53it's like crazy stuff it just doesn't
1:34:55work every time I've worked against
1:34:57those api's I have felt like I'm the
1:34:59first person to ever have used them so
1:35:02to answer your the actual question you
1:35:04asked me 25 minutes ago I think it will
1:35:06eventually hopefully become possible to
1:35:09write a good standalone podcast player
1:35:11on the watch but I don't think that's
1:35:14coming soon because too much has to
1:35:16mature we need hardware advancements for
1:35:19the four you know battery and power and
1:35:21data transfer speeds we need all those
1:35:23things to improve we need the ability
1:35:25for apps to actually stay running in the
1:35:27background you know as they're playing
1:35:29audio not just do what watch OS tries to
1:35:31do now and and you know kill us in the
1:35:33backgrounds and leave this weird
1:35:35standalone file player that's run by the
1:35:36system like no we need what we have on
1:35:38the phone basically the phone had us a
1:35:40very long time ago so maybe we weren't
1:35:42that far off who knows but whatever it
1:35:44is we need API parity in a lot of these
1:35:48areas between the watching the phone and
1:35:50not only do we not have that but it
1:35:53almost feels like Apple doesn't want to
1:35:54do that in the watch it seems like they
1:35:56think that this is all the audio
1:35:59exposure we need right now and I don't
1:36:01know if that's an ideological thing or
1:36:02if that's reacting to limitations of the
1:36:04current hardware either way that has to
1:36:06change and that's that's a big change so
1:36:09I don't expect for it to be soon so if
1:36:13if you got I'm trying to think of the
1:36:15minimal stuff that you would need for
1:36:16this because it's gonna it's gonna be a
1:36:18while before you get like full access to
1:36:20the api's that allies if ever if you
1:36:23just got cell data and the ability to
1:36:27run in the background at the very least
1:36:29you could make a very simple streaming
1:36:33only player that communicates with that
1:36:38that pulls the data from wherever the
1:36:40the podcast is and that communicates
1:36:41with your server in a lightweight way to
1:36:44keep sort of the timestamp updated right
1:36:46because if you is that's not that's not
1:36:48heavy background work you're like you
1:36:50know pull it pulling data for this
1:36:51podcast you know you have plenty of time
1:36:53to slurp it up when your connection is
1:36:54good and then just sleep for a while you
1:36:56know whatever it's the input of the
1:36:58audio data is fine and you've gotta
1:37:00communicate with your server a little
1:37:01bit every you know you do it every
1:37:03minute who knows like just say Oh update
1:37:05the pipe is it an update to play
1:37:06position or whatever and then I guess
1:37:08minimal interface the controls to
1:37:11understand what you you know how to have
1:37:13control over when you get the next and
1:37:14previous to do something different than
1:37:16than doing something ridiculous and that
1:37:18I think you know I know this is this
1:37:21entire section is about offline watch
1:37:22playback but this I think would fulfill
1:37:25all the needs like I don't need to bring
1:37:26my phone with me I can just wear my
1:37:28watch and I can listen to my podcast and
1:37:30but mostly getting it with it but the
1:37:33question about do you have an
1:37:34expectation today if you had any inside
1:37:35information about it but I don't
1:37:37presumably Apple will eventually on this
1:37:40list
1:37:41things that we want to add to the watch
1:37:42get to the point where people like yeah
1:37:43people do like to listen to music and
1:37:44their watch they also would like to
1:37:46probably listen to podcasts and their
1:37:48watch they know how many people listen
1:37:49to podcasts they have their stats for
1:37:50the podcast app that comes bundled with
1:37:52your phone podcasts are a thing again
1:37:55not as big as music eventually I think
1:37:57Apple will get around to the idea of
1:37:59like oh it's silly that you can't listen
1:38:00to podcasts and your watch without your
1:38:02phone with you especially now that we
1:38:03have the second generation of this watch
1:38:05with sell day access right so they will
1:38:07get to it eventually so I feel like
1:38:08there's hope for you you're not just
1:38:10like swinging in the wind we're like
1:38:11they're just never gonna get to me but I
1:38:12don't know what the timeline looks like
1:38:14on that it's um it's very difficult to
1:38:15tell how much Apple cares about a
1:38:18podcast sometimes well it's also this is
1:38:21the kind of feature that and believe
1:38:23everyone's and lots of these if you ask
1:38:25people if they want this feature a
1:38:28certain number of them will say yes of
1:38:31course I want that feature or certain
1:38:32I'm or the MOL email you be without
1:38:33you've asked you saying please I want
1:38:35this feature but then if you actually
1:38:37give it to them the the number of people
1:38:40who actually use it is all usually or
1:38:43not often for some of these features way
1:38:45way lower than than what they thought
1:38:48before they had it it's also the
1:38:50usability like I remember when I tried
1:38:51to send it to the watch it's not easy to
1:38:54just figure out even how to do it and
1:38:55then when you do figure out how to do it
1:38:57the fact that it doesn't work that well
1:38:58will discourage people from using it
1:39:00sure and and I think a lot of people had
1:39:03that same experience with playing music
1:39:05on the watch through Apple's apps like
1:39:06it the reason they had to do this this
1:39:08kind of overnight automatic syncing
1:39:10thing with watch OS 4 is because before
1:39:12that when you had to kind of manually
1:39:14picked up to sync over than wait you
1:39:16know forever for transfer that was
1:39:18terrible it was so bad most people
1:39:19didn't do it even now on the watch I
1:39:22find the playback experience even if you
1:39:24even if you can get the data there the
1:39:26the playback and control experience and
1:39:29the watch is a really rough compared to
1:39:30what you have on the phone again this
1:39:32goes back to my thing of never bet
1:39:33against the smart phone the smart phone
1:39:35is really good at this stuff it's it is
1:39:38very rare that I do something on my
1:39:41watch to interact with a podcast that is
1:39:43at all non-trivial that I don't regret
1:39:46not doing it not just taking out my
1:39:48phone and doing it there like if you're
1:39:49doing something like you know skip to
1:39:51the next chapter fine take up take out
1:39:53the watch I do there it's it's
1:39:55fast if that's you know if you're out
1:39:56with your walking on me that's fine but
1:39:58like for anything anything non-trivial I
1:40:01find it very hard to do anything on the
1:40:02watch and not even just with audio in
1:40:05general and and so and there have been
1:40:07lots of other overcast features where
1:40:09like people have asked for it or wanted
1:40:11it some of the things I haven't even
1:40:13released because like like for example
1:40:15the the Sonos integration I right now
1:40:19there's as I mentioned I think somewhere
1:40:21on Twitter is when there's an API
1:40:22limitation that basically makes it in my
1:40:24opinion not good enough to ship sir
1:40:26sound familiar so I'm not shipping it
1:40:28but I found in my testing of the Sonos
1:40:32integration it was not a very good
1:40:34experience and I mostly just preferred
1:40:37to have podcast playing through my phone
1:40:40speaker sitting on the counter or
1:40:42eventually upgraded to an iPad pro with
1:40:44big speakers in it so that's the way
1:40:45like and so like an iPad pro on the
1:40:47counter is by far the best way to play
1:40:50podcasts out in the open at home by a
1:40:52long shot it's way better than so no
1:40:54it's way better than echo it's just a
1:40:56way better experience and because pot
1:40:58you don't like you don't listen to
1:40:59podcast the same way listen to music
1:41:00there's a lot more interaction involved
1:41:03and you have different like you want to
1:41:05look at if somebody mentions a link you
1:41:07want to look at the show notes if you
1:41:08know you might want to seek around a
1:41:10little bitter or look at a chapter list
1:41:11or skip ahead or skip commercials or
1:41:13whatever else like there's much more
1:41:15interaction with podcast than when you
1:41:17have with music so like these systems
1:41:19that are designed for music playback
1:41:20when you try to play podcast them it
1:41:22sounds like a good idea and it's
1:41:24something could be awesome but trust me
1:41:25when you actually get it it's not nearly
1:41:27as good as just using your phone or
1:41:29using an iPad that's you know sitting up
1:41:31on the counter so there's a lot of these
1:41:34features and I think watch playback is
1:41:36just one of these things that the nature
1:41:38of interacting with the watch it's so
1:41:40limited the software so limited the
1:41:42hardware the ergonomics are so limited
1:41:44because it's such a tiny little device I
1:41:46don't think it's ever gonna be a great
1:41:49experience to play and manage podcasts
1:41:52on the watch it's it's gonna be
1:41:54something that people will ask for
1:41:55forever and some people will use it no
1:41:58question you know I'm not saying nobody
1:42:00will use it but I'm saying very few
1:42:02people will even if it's done well like
1:42:04even you know even if I do everything
1:42:06right and even if the harbor gets a
1:42:07little bit better and
1:42:08things a little bit faster I still don't
1:42:11think it's going to be a very good
1:42:12experience compared to used taking at
1:42:14your phone and doing it there you know
1:42:16you said something earlier Marco about
1:42:18the potential for an LTE equipped watch
1:42:21and I was on clockwise earlier today and
1:42:24that was actually the question I brought
1:42:26up is hey if would you be interested in
1:42:28an LTE equipped watch and and you know
1:42:31why or why not and and not to rehash
1:42:33that too much but what I was saying was
1:42:36you know I've been running a few times a
1:42:38week lately and we'll see how long that
1:42:39sticks but it's been sticking you know
1:42:41for a while now it's been a couple of
1:42:42months and it occurred to me recently
1:42:45that the part of the reason I bring my
1:42:48phone when I run is because if I were to
1:42:51somehow really injure myself I'd really
1:42:54want to be able to call like Aaron or or
1:42:56you know an ambulance if it really was
1:42:58that bad and if I had a watch that had
1:43:01the mechanism by which I could do that
1:43:03you know it was presumably you know with
1:43:05LTE although I saw some rumblings
1:43:07earlier today saying that maybe it would
1:43:09be data only and not not permit phone
1:43:12calls but either way if I had a watch
1:43:14that could call for help someway somehow
1:43:17then maybe I wouldn't need to bring my
1:43:19phone with me which would be nice that I
1:43:21wouldn't have to you know because
1:43:22currently I carry it I don't have one of
1:43:23those peculiar arm bands or anything and
1:43:26it occurred to me Wow you know it would
1:43:28be really great to be able to listen to
1:43:29my podcasts on my crap so I definitely
1:43:34am NOT one that had used the send to
1:43:37watch feature in overcast while it was
1:43:39there but I I am on a series zero watch
1:43:42and I think I'll probably upgrade this
1:43:44year and yeah it would be pretty cool if
1:43:46that came back so count me in is one of
1:43:49those people that's looking forward to
1:43:50you somehow figuring out a way to make
1:43:51this work again presumably with API
1:43:54changes by the way Steve Brown Smith
1:43:58actually gave us the name of the thing
1:44:01that Apple's apps used on the watch in
1:44:04the tradition of weird internal Apple
1:44:06names I mean springboards kind of weird
1:44:08too but the weird code games like
1:44:10where's the watch like code name gizmo
1:44:11or something anyway
1:44:12watch kit runs on top of pepper UI core
1:44:16like you know black pepper and pepper UI
1:44:20core runs the top of you
1:44:21like it how do you know it isn't about a
1:44:23bell peppers I don't know what it's
1:44:25about
1:44:26maybe Chris pepper yeah couldn't be here
1:44:28to correct your typos for you mm-hmm
1:44:31joke with an audience of seven people
1:44:34yay
1:44:35thanks for sponsors this week fracture
1:44:37and aftershocks and we'll see you next
1:44:40week now the show is over it was
1:44:49accidental URL is s so that's Casey less
1:45:20and a are Co AR m and T Marco Arment
1:45:25[Music]
1:45:36I have some bike follow-up ah excellent
1:45:47what's a year I saw your bike in our
1:45:49tips bike and I couldn't figure out if
1:45:52that was your I'm gonna buy the bike and
1:45:54I don't like I'm gonna give it to TIFF
1:45:55or was an entirely separate dedicated
1:45:58TIFF bike it so well it was the bike
1:46:01that I was buying for probably TIFF I
1:46:04was gonna see if I liked it and and so
1:46:06that's kind of why I bought it first
1:46:07like I was going to use my opinion of
1:46:09that to inform what I was going to get
1:46:11for myself and that bike was the
1:46:13priority Coast priority is a they seem
1:46:17to be a pretty good bike company they
1:46:18they they're a new york-based company
1:46:20they starting Kickstarter and they they
1:46:23have they do all belt drive bikes I
1:46:26mentioned last year that I like the belt
1:46:27drive for the lack of maintenance and
1:46:30better you know everything so I like the
1:46:34belt drive and that's when I wanted the
1:46:38priority coast is their beach cruiser
1:46:40model I got it
1:46:42kind of thinking I don't think I want to
1:46:44be screwed I think I wanted like a
1:46:45little bit more like a forward position
1:46:47like I've I always enjoyed mountain
1:46:50bikes more than most other things most
1:46:52other bike shapes I guess and you know
1:46:55that kind of like kind of for position
1:46:56with the straight bars and the hand
1:46:57brakes and everything like I just like
1:46:59that better I think but you know this is
1:47:02a beach town and and every literally
1:47:05every other bike in town except for the
1:47:07cop bikes are beach cruisers even one of
1:47:10the cops has a beach cruiser the rest
1:47:11have mountain bikes but anyway so like I
1:47:14thought that I should probably try that
1:47:15so we did and it is a little bit big for
1:47:19me which I kind of expected going into
1:47:21it so it's a little bit big and I really
1:47:24don't like the coaster break it this
1:47:26seems like a beach cruiser thing that
1:47:28all beach cruisers have that you know
1:47:29where you pedal backwards to break the
1:47:31coaster brakes I just I was not
1:47:34I've taken that bike out a few times and
1:47:36I just could not get into the coaster
1:47:38brake it also it has the the coaster
1:47:40brake seemingly I was like the main
1:47:41break and then it also has a front only
1:47:44hand brake and that to me was very
1:47:47confusing I think if this was gonna be
1:47:49my bike
1:47:50I would actually remove the front
1:47:52handbrake because to have like half of
1:47:55one method of breaking but the main
1:47:57method of breaking be the other thing
1:47:58like it was just very confusing it like
1:48:00I wanted that on there because coaster
1:48:02brakes suck and if you need to stop I
1:48:05don't want you to die because the
1:48:06coaster brakes can't stop you you know
1:48:08right I mean it really is this friction
1:48:10boy even if the coaster brakes could
1:48:11lock up the back wheel you will stop
1:48:13faster if you could also do something to
1:48:15stop the front wheel so I that would be
1:48:17a bad idea to get a bike with coaster
1:48:19brakes and remove I've just seen bikes
1:48:21with hand brakes that only have the back
1:48:23hand brake like you need you want
1:48:24something pinching both the front of the
1:48:25back wheels because you need both
1:48:27contact patches to stop here in
1:48:28emergency so don't don't do that well
1:48:30and and you know my needs here are lower
1:48:32because it again like because they're
1:48:34all like sidewalks full of people that
1:48:36you're riding on but there's no roads
1:48:37there's like these broad sidewalks and
1:48:39they're all full of people and wagons
1:48:40and stuff so like you actually can't go
1:48:42that fast most of the time so a deer
1:48:44that yeah that actually is a concern or
1:48:46fox or deers get deers gonna hit you
1:48:49yeah that's more like more like it
1:48:51anyway so so that was fine I then after
1:48:55lots of research and waffling as you
1:48:57know I'm I'm prone to do I decided you
1:49:00know yeah right so I am now driving a
1:49:02CVT
1:49:03just for John oh my god oh my god it is
1:49:08another it's also priority it's their
1:49:10their continuum onyx model it's
1:49:13basically their like high-end road bike
1:49:15I have some issues with it it's not a
1:49:19road bike like a road bike it's like a
1:49:20it's like it's a commuter bike so it's
1:49:22like it's not like a racing like like
1:49:24the handlebars don't have like those
1:49:25like dip down new shapes road bike is a
1:49:27term of art sorry it's like a tends to
1:49:30be type thing but not fun for the really
1:49:32skinny tires yeah it's a commuter bike I
1:49:34have some issues with it their fenders
1:49:37are pretty low quality on both of the
1:49:40bikes and they rattle a little bit and
1:49:41even even when they're tightened and
1:49:43everything the fenders are also slightly
1:49:45asymmetrical which is I can't tell if
1:49:47it's intentional or not like they look
1:49:49just kind of crooked so I'm probably
1:49:51gonna remove the fenders because they
1:49:52just kind of are annoying me and and I
1:49:54think in retrospect this was a bad
1:49:56choice for a beach town because it has
1:49:59these really skinny
1:50:00high pressure tires and while that might
1:50:03be great
1:50:04a well paved road when you're commuting
1:50:06to work I guess there's a reason why
1:50:09every other bike I pass in the beach
1:50:11town has these like 2 inch wide cruiser
1:50:14tires like there's a reason for that and
1:50:17and so when you're riding along these
1:50:19walks that are all I think the old
1:50:21concrete you know it's like it's like
1:50:22riding on an old sidewalk so you know
1:50:24you're going bump a bump a bump a bump
1:50:25like as you go like you just hit you're
1:50:27feeling every bump and and on these
1:50:28tires you feel it a lot so I'm actually
1:50:30I think I might go to the bike guy in
1:50:33town and see if he can like see if he
1:50:35has any larger tires that would still
1:50:37fit these rims did I make it too big of
1:50:39a project but and the seat is like
1:50:42sitting on a rock like they call it the
1:50:46priority comfort seat or saddle I think
1:50:48they call them bike people call them
1:50:49saddles for some reason I don't know
1:50:51what part of this is comfortable exactly
1:50:53but it's certainly not the part that my
1:50:55butt is sitting on so I have to fix that
1:50:58as well fortunately as an easy fix
1:50:59there's a lot make sure you get a
1:51:00prostate friendly one I was not aware
1:51:03there was a difference the one you have
1:51:05is like you know you're distinguished by
1:51:08like there being a big split in the
1:51:09middle you're like why is this seat
1:51:10split in half yeah yeah it has like a
1:51:13little hole in the middle right so
1:51:15sometimes they just give a suggestion of
1:51:17a crease there which I feel like doesn't
1:51:19help and sometimes there's actually an
1:51:21air gap there but anyway you want
1:51:23something like that
1:51:24okay good noted so I so I have that you
1:51:27probably you probably want for you're
1:51:28sensitive to see like a gel seat or some
1:51:30other thing that's squishy yeah like
1:51:31like the the the old rusted-out mountain
1:51:34bike I thought I was riding here
1:51:35beforehand that only technically has
1:51:36like three gears left if it's 21
1:51:38that one has like an aftermarket gel
1:51:40seat on it and that that was always fine
1:51:42for me so I mean I heard someone on
1:51:44Amazon that was well reviewed we'll see
1:51:46how it goes when it gets here in three
1:51:48years
1:51:48because thanks here from Amazon is
1:51:50tricky anyway so you know replacing to
1:51:53see that otherwise it's very nice I
1:51:54really love disc brakes this is my first
1:51:58time I've ever ridden a bike that has
1:51:59disc brakes it's such a massive
1:52:01difference over the regular like V style
1:52:03calipers that go on the rim it stops
1:52:05like on a dime it's amazing so big fan
1:52:09of that big fan of generally the
1:52:12handling of the shape of the bike
1:52:14although again the tires are way too
1:52:15skinny so I'm going to work on that too
1:52:17and the CVT is amazing like it shouldn't
1:52:22be as good as it is but it's it's just
1:52:24really really nice when one of the
1:52:27advances and and there are there are
1:52:28gear hubs that do this too you can shift
1:52:31at you know even even when you're at a
1:52:33stop you can still shift so if you like
1:52:35going in a high gear have to stop really
1:52:38fast and don't time it like you know
1:52:40shit'll be back down doesn't matter just
1:52:41twist the handle you're in the low gear
1:52:42you just go because it's the CVT and
1:52:45because you can just kind of twist as
1:52:46often as you like on that gear and any
1:52:48interval you like I find myself shifting
1:52:51way more than I wouldn't are on a
1:52:53derailleur style bike I wouldn't say
1:52:55it's necessary like I'd be fine with a
1:52:57geared setup or even with a fixed gear
1:52:59for most of the time I ride here but
1:53:01it's really nice to have this that way
1:53:03you can like you know if I'm slowing
1:53:04down for a turn or something I I guess
1:53:06kind of you know kind of automatically
1:53:08kind of started you know going into the
1:53:10lower gears and then moving back out as
1:53:11I go
1:53:12like as I pedals going back up it's
1:53:14really cool actually sure you do rev
1:53:16matching yeah for the corner
1:53:20flip the pedal literally yeah so anyway
1:53:24it was probably not the best bike to get
1:53:26for the beach because of it's incredibly
1:53:28hard ride that's obviously designed for
1:53:30smooth roads and not ya know shot it's
1:53:34it seems like shocks are passe in fancy
1:53:37bikes it's like nobody wants to build
1:53:38shocks anymore well for mountain bikes
1:53:40you need them or anything that's not not
1:53:41uneven terrain you need it for not for
1:53:44good not just for comfort but also for
1:53:45control I also it's been so since we
1:53:48recorded I also got curious about sand
1:53:51bikes or fat bikes as bike people seem
1:53:53to call them the ones that have like
1:53:55five inch wide giant sand tires those
1:53:58you occasionally see those around here
1:54:00and I thought that could be interesting
1:54:03then I could ride past the crazy point
1:54:05of woods fence and I could expand my
1:54:07horizons into in the directions so I
1:54:09could like I had to get more distance if
1:54:10I can ride on the sand
1:54:12so I spent since we last recorded about
1:54:15two weeks ago I spent this time
1:54:17researching fat bikes and you know and
1:54:20try looking around for places that I
1:54:22could maybe rent one or try one and it
1:54:25wasn't until about two days ago that I
1:54:28learned that my neighbor has one and he
1:54:29let me borrow it and
1:54:31showed me how to use it on the sand and
1:54:33how do you ever ridden on sand
1:54:35I've run on saying you were run on sand
1:54:38yeah that's not fun either I knew it
1:54:40would be challenging
1:54:41I did not realize to what degree it will
1:54:45be challenging so I get out there and
1:54:47this is like it's a perfect setup like
1:54:48it's pretty low tide he's showing me
1:54:50exactly where on the sand to ride like
1:54:52so it's like optionally pat optimally
1:54:54packed down slightly damp but not like
1:54:57super wet sand you know so you're and
1:54:59and the bike has like these large 5-inch
1:55:01low-pressure tires so you know so it's
1:55:04it's the ideal setup really like it was
1:55:06it would be hard to find a better setup
1:55:08than the setup I had and so I first
1:55:11started going and for about the first 30
1:55:14feet or so I'm like this is easy what
1:55:17was I what was I so concerned about this
1:55:19is this is nothing and then after you
1:55:23know as you keep going you're like wait
1:55:24a minute like I have to maintain this
1:55:27level of resistance like indefinitely
1:55:30well got like it's not like a quick hill
1:55:33where like you go up the hill and then
1:55:34you're flat for a while then you can
1:55:35coast for a while you have like low
1:55:36resistance no it's like to keep moving
1:55:38it's like you're going up a pretty
1:55:40sizable hill all the time so I I said
1:55:47something like two or three hundred feet
1:55:49before like are done like I can't do any
1:55:51more turn around
1:55:54but back to him I'm like alright thanks
1:55:56like this this ride is either gonna save
1:55:59me a $50 rental fee from the place in
1:56:02town or it's gonna cost me $1,000 to buy
1:56:05one of these bikes for the first time
1:56:07ever I didn't buy the thing you're now
1:56:11you're researching isse and bikes though
1:56:12of course I research the Eastern bikes
1:56:14but because those are only about 1,500
1:56:17but but I only honestly that's not
1:56:20compared to the price of ebikes and the
1:56:23price of sand bikes that actually is a
1:56:25really good it's but anyway the my issue
1:56:27with those is like what's the point then
1:56:29like the whole reason I'm riding is for
1:56:32exercise and and getting myself you know
1:56:34like the challenge of it and you know
1:56:37the the e bike thing I think makes more
1:56:40sense if you're doing like commuting or
1:56:43like if they're like
1:56:45some other reasons why you're doing this
1:56:46besides just like the exercise value
1:56:48like if you were a delivery person using
1:56:51using a bike or if you're if you had to
1:56:53ride between these towns and you had to
1:56:55go on the beach - right between the
1:56:56certain ones like for your job or
1:56:59something that'd be a different story
1:57:01then that would make more sense but for
1:57:02my purposes as like this is mainly for
1:57:04exercise any bike is it kind of misses
1:57:07the point I think well what about it
1:57:08exploring this at this point that you
1:57:10want to explore beyond a certain point
1:57:12that you hadn't gone beyond before you
1:57:13want to find in new places to get Lyme
1:57:15disease you should - let you go
1:57:18exploring in areas where previously you
1:57:20would've been too tired to get to I
1:57:22think a more responsible thing to do is
1:57:25to just keep biking until I'm strong
1:57:28enough to do the sand bike thing that
1:57:31like that is that is what I should do it
1:57:33probably isn't what I will do but that's
1:57:35what I should do just walk you just walk
1:57:38on the beach walk in the sand feet work
1:57:40really well no that's what are you crazy
1:57:44so something somehow we go up and down
1:57:47the beaches on Long Island we have no
1:57:48bikes just make sure you bring shoes
1:57:51sand is hot it is pretty frustrating
1:57:54there like when like you will
1:57:55occasionally see somebody with a nice
1:57:57and bike drive-by as you're on the beach
1:57:59you're like dammit
1:58:02yeah so anyway what I ideally still want
1:58:06is basically what I mentioned last time
1:58:08was my high-end option the the bud Nets
1:58:10bicycle the model 3 or number 3 I keep
1:58:14getting their names with Tesla's names
1:58:16because they have some the begin with
1:58:17model and something begin with number
1:58:18anyway I want the button the button it's
1:58:20number three and I will probably end up
1:58:23ordering one of those for home and then
1:58:26maybe next summer I'll get one for the
1:58:27beach but we'll see because the summer
1:58:29is almost over and you can't get them
1:58:30like there they're made button they're
1:58:32made to order so like it takes a few
1:58:34weeks to get them so it's too late for
1:58:35this summer anyway but I think that's
1:58:38what I want here is basically a high
1:58:41SPECT bike that also has wide tires but
1:58:45not quite sand tire wide where are you
1:58:48gonna ride it at home on streets are
1:58:50there like paths you can go on mostly
1:58:52streets but there also is I live near
1:58:55the old Croton Aqueduct Trail
1:58:58I would probably write on that lots of
1:58:59people do there's also nearby bike
1:59:01trails then I have to become like the
1:59:03person who like puts their bike on their
1:59:05car and brings it places and that I
1:59:07might get there sometime I don't know
1:59:09but I don't know anything about that
1:59:11world yet and so I'm a little resistant
1:59:12to that but you know what one thing I
1:59:16think I might get into this is that this
1:59:18is actually I've only told you about two
1:59:20of the three bikes that I've bought
1:59:22since we last talked
1:59:23the third one word was the tiny version
1:59:27which I bought for my son because they
1:59:29also sell priority also sells the
1:59:31priority start which is a tiny belt
1:59:35drive fancy bike made by hipsters in New
1:59:37York I'm sure I'm sure he appreciates
1:59:39the all the nuances of this very
1:59:42expensive fancy bike it first of all
1:59:44compared to other well rated kids bikes
1:59:47it was surprisingly inexpensive like
1:59:50every that the bike that everyone else
1:59:52told us to get which was the isla our
1:59:54Islip bike I love Mike whatever however
1:59:56you pronounce that that's like 400 bucks
1:59:58this was too
1:59:58this was too
2:00:00fifteen so compared to those that's
2:00:02actually not that bad
2:00:03I could also get this quickly that's
2:00:05pretty cheap yeah if I go this is real I
2:00:07mean the problem with these kids lice is
2:00:09a throw away by clay he's gonna grow
2:00:10three inches in the next two weeks and
2:00:12it's like up now he's too big for that
2:00:13bike cuz you know it's like kids clothes
2:00:15yeah well fortunately he got we got the
2:00:1716 inch size and he is like he's barely
2:00:20tall enough to make it now so that way
2:00:21he has the most time to actually use it
2:00:23before he gets too tall for it and it's
2:00:25a pretty well SPECT bike like it has it
2:00:28has dual hand brakes like you know real
2:00:30vibrate on both wheels not a coaster
2:00:32brake and it has the carbon belt instead
2:00:35of the chain cuz once he saw tips and
2:00:37then my and we and he have he asked
2:00:39about why those were there and I
2:00:40explained why it's superior and so of
2:00:43course he wanted one so now we have
2:00:47three people riding priority of bikes we
2:00:48he isn't quite gotten it yet but I bet
2:00:51within the next few days he'll he'll be
2:00:52pretty good on it
2:00:53damn the training wheels on or off off
2:00:58two minutes another thing you can
2:01:00periscope I don't learn to ride just
2:01:02just run but run behind him and hold the
2:01:04seat and you're like oh that's how you
2:01:05do it yeah so that's it we have being
2:01:06Tiferet we're doing that today earlier
2:01:08he it was this is the very first time I
2:01:10tried it so we got it we got slightly
2:01:11far but we didn't we didn't quite get
2:01:14far enough today to float let go for
2:01:16more than a second or two so and well I
2:01:18think we'll privacy over the next few
2:01:19days and probably probably by next week
2:01:21he could be riding a bike I was mostly
2:01:24joking that's not how you should have
2:01:25your head do that stuff the way my
2:01:26father did it to me but that's like the
2:01:28worst way to do the way it should be
2:01:29done is the way you're already doing it
2:01:30you give him the scoot bike so he
2:01:31learned set of balance and he'll do it
2:01:33on his own yeah so he's I think he's
2:01:35basically all study we just used this
2:01:37like a scoot bike but then picks both
2:01:38his feet up and puts them on the pedals
2:01:40instead of just holding them up in the
2:01:41air then it starts pedaling he's off to
2:01:43the races yeah we're getting there this
2:01:46button it's bike is weird
2:01:48which one the number three yeah the
2:01:51frame is weird
2:01:52well that's they're actually known for
2:01:54their like cool artistic frame and it's
2:01:59no no CVT you're gonna be spoiled by the
2:02:01CVT and then you're gonna come to this
2:02:02and it's like 11 gears that's not enough
2:02:05actually I already asked them and they
2:02:06they actually would do a CVT if I wanted
2:02:08it but yeah no I mean it's because it
2:02:10seems like it what I actually want
2:02:13is a road version of a mountain bike
2:02:17yeah that's what this looks like except
2:02:19for the front frame and so with the you
2:02:23know this gives me you know high-end
2:02:25parts like it has like good brakes good
2:02:27gearing options the carbon belt you know
2:02:30it like nice stuff and a slightly
2:02:34mountain bike a slightly Rohde kind of
2:02:37hybrid riding position and wide tire
2:02:40support and it looks cool and oh and it
2:02:43also has the other things I like like
2:02:44minimal branding like so many of these
2:02:47bikes have just the giant names all over
2:02:49the place and it's just ugly ascend so
2:02:52you know stuff like that like they do
2:02:54some pretty good work so the way you
2:02:55feel about sand bike tires is the way I
2:02:57feel about tires that are the width of
2:02:59this thing like a dude that I feel like
2:03:00it's just a huge amount of unnecessary
2:03:02friction as soon as I stop pedaling like
2:03:05we're all these tyres slowing me down
2:03:06like regenerative braking they actually
2:03:10had the model II actually is one of them
2:03:13were interesting the e bikes have ever
2:03:14seen to it it's all in the rear hub like
2:03:17there's no battery on the frame or
2:03:20anything like it's just all it's just a
2:03:22rear hub that happens to include like a
2:03:24radial battery around the center and
2:03:26there are things you see the thing you
2:03:27can add to it just any bike and just
2:03:29slap it on the wheel is lots of clever
2:03:31yeah the Helvetica one was I called
2:03:33because a bunch of them see something
2:03:36wheel anyway that I thought that was
2:03:38hideous the thing you could just add any
2:03:39of them yeah well but no again like if I
2:03:43get an e bike it would definitely be for
2:03:45home not for here because that's the
2:03:46place where like there are giant Hills
2:03:48in my neighborhood and one of the
2:03:50reasons I have not gotten a bike yet at
2:03:52home is that I assumed there's no
2:03:55there's no way to recently ride a bike
2:03:57in my neighborhood because there's so
2:03:58many hills there is come on I should
2:04:00show you I I don't think any Hill in
2:04:02your neighborhood is as big as I went up
2:04:06in a bike with no gears couldn't change
2:04:08gears down to first gear to get up the
2:04:09hill
2:04:09but you had one gear in the Mongoose and
2:04:11that was it and I powered my way up
2:04:13those cells all the time because that's
2:04:14how you got to your friends there's one
2:04:16gear both ways there's more dangerous
2:04:20goin down the hills they have topology
2:04:23and Google Maps
2:04:25sometimes it's weird
2:04:27let's see if I can find nothing is like
2:04:29like as as my kid gets into biking I
2:04:33suspect that a good thing to do will be
2:04:35for me to go with him biking even at
2:04:37home year-round so like to have
2:04:39something at home that could do that
2:04:40pretty well is probably a good idea no
2:04:43no no no topology way to go 3d 3d that's
2:04:47not very 3d the hell this road is flat
2:04:50this road is not flat every time I see a
2:04:53mongoose around town I think of you John
2:04:55know it's a different company now and
2:04:57they actually have what seems like a
2:04:59fairly a popular fat tire bike - and I'm
2:05:02not talking about you know the blood
2:05:04mist I'm talking about you know like the
2:05:05sand bike size tires the I see there's a
2:05:07lot like a lot of the sand bikes around
2:05:09town or the ones that are kind of there
2:05:11seems to be a class of bike around here
2:05:13that had its they're not quite wide
2:05:15enough or not knobby enough to be sand
2:05:17tires but they're just radicular it's
2:05:22like flat rubber tires on bikes that
2:05:25look like they might have cost two
2:05:27dollars out of the Walmart discount bin
2:05:28it's very very strange but I kind of
2:05:31want to ride one looks like a lot of fun
2:05:35I'm looking at these roads and Google
2:05:37Maps and I see that but the people did
2:05:40these terrible people did to my
2:05:42childhood home like I've seen from the
2:05:45air they cut down all the trees to put
2:05:46this hideous swimming pool like taking
2:05:48up the entire backyard giant hideous
2:05:50liver the whole backyard is paved over
2:05:52with this terrible swimming pool in it
2:05:57you know that should be your retirement
2:06:00plan buy back your old house and fix it
2:06:02it's not that it's not that great of a
2:06:05house and you can't I can't replace all
2:06:07the trees they cut down so many trees so
2:06:09many big full-grown trees they still
2:06:10having them in the back but just they
2:06:11cut down so many trees oh you can I mean
2:06:14if you save enough money you totally can
2:06:16buy full-grown trees I know because
2:06:19there's a the the guy Shaw there's some
2:06:22some guy named Shaw who like invented
2:06:24the hedge fund or something and he's
2:06:25building a large house down you know
2:06:28basically at the edge of my neighborhood
2:06:30they've actually trucked in full-size
2:06:33trees have you ever seen a tree on a
2:06:36flatbed truck that's what Apple did for
2:06:38they have a park thing yeah yeah yeah
2:06:40he's like
2:06:41I I would love to know how much it costs
2:06:44to get a full size tree shipped to your
2:06:46house I'm planted I'm guessing it has to
2:06:48be like a hundred grand or something
2:06:49like there's no way five thousand
2:06:52dollars a pop all right maybe 10 10 kpop
2:06:54cuz this is it's not on one like regular
2:06:57flat but it's on like the oversized load
2:06:59trucks they bring houses on yeah they
2:07:01got the big Spade they get the big Spade
2:07:03thing that's containing the root ball
2:07:04and all the dirt yeah yeah there's it's
2:07:06a giant root ball like I can't I can't
2:07:10even imagine like take it out like it's
2:07:12like it's like a thing from like a
2:07:14portal no not portal a half-life 2 was
2:07:17like city 17 these giant metal things go
2:07:19in chicken they all go underneath the
2:07:21thing and they all go down meet in the
2:07:23middle and it tears up the tree it's
2:07:24cool yeah I didn't see that part but
2:07:28even just seeing the truck go down like
2:07:31the main thoroughfare in our town and
2:07:33park next to this giant darshan project
2:07:35with this giant tree lying down on the
2:07:37back of it like that's Wow
2:07:41so anyway you totally can replace the
2:07:44space but maybe plan for like a hundred
2:07:46grand each is the possible cost I don't
2:07:53understand why people like you don't
2:07:54want to have a backyard you want your
2:07:56entire backyard to be brick in a
2:07:57swimming pool that's just as awkwardly
2:08:01shaped it's not the right place like
2:08:02it's a house on the corner and their
2:08:04swimming pool is like instead of being
2:08:06tucked away from where people are it's
2:08:09like right up against the driveway and
2:08:11the road like you want some privacy in
2:08:13your swimming pool it's just know what
2:08:15they're thinking telling you this is
2:08:17what you got to do who knows what the
2:08:18inside of the house looks like now I
2:08:19mean maybe they didn't change that that
2:08:21much I don't know but they sell it and I
2:08:23never have an open house I should go
2:08:24down there and look at what the heck
2:08:25they're doing Oh totally no God yeah it
2:08:29will drive you insane knowing the things
2:08:31that they've done the only way that ends
2:08:33well for you is if you don't have any
2:08:35idea I haven't changed the outside of
2:08:37the house they've kept all the gross 80s
2:08:39deck and like the little abbreviated
2:08:41deck that my dad but maybe they maybe
2:08:43they fix the walk when I did the
2:08:44driveway just just don't like it