The Accidental Tech Podcast

260: The Todoyist Problem


01:00:00   late for to-do item because you want to [TS]

01:00:02   do it at a particular time depending on [TS]

01:00:03   how you view things how many you just [TS]

01:00:05   use one calendar KC way to use I use a [TS]

01:00:09   shared Google Calendar that is off of my [TS]

01:00:13   gmail account that Aaron and I share and [TS]

01:00:16   that is the canonical family calendar [TS]

01:00:20   that being said anything that happens [TS]

01:00:22   during the workday or anything that for [TS]

01:00:24   some reason I don't want Aaron to see [TS]

01:00:25   like maybe I've booked a time to go buy [TS]

01:00:27   her a gift or something like that like [TS]

01:00:29   that's the only thing I can think of [TS]

01:00:30   that I wouldn't want her to see or maybe [TS]

01:00:32   something that's irrelevant to her that [TS]

01:00:35   goes on my work calendar just because [TS]

01:00:37   he's going to the Tesla dealership [TS]

01:00:39   exactly right how did you know but but [TS]

01:00:43   yes so basically the Google Calendar [TS]

01:00:45   that's associated with my gmail account [TS]

01:00:47   well strictly speaking my Google Apps [TS]

01:00:49   for my domain account that is a shared [TS]

01:00:51   calendar that that she has on her phone [TS]

01:00:54   that she has on her computer that's [TS]

01:00:55   everywhere that is the canonical list [TS]

01:00:57   family calendar and then anything that [TS]

01:00:59   is basically basically anything that [TS]

01:01:01   happens during the workday or for some [TS]

01:01:03   reason I don't want her to be burdened [TS]

01:01:04   with that is on my work calendar what is [TS]

01:01:07   your work calendar its Google Apps but [TS]

01:01:11   it's all Google yeah it's Google [TS]

01:01:12   everywhere so I also have a separate [TS]

01:01:14   work calendar it's not Google because my [TS]

01:01:16   work doesn't use Google at work out look [TS]

01:01:20   whatever exchange and I don't I think [TS]

01:01:22   that's split I like that split I like [TS]

01:01:24   not having my work calendar messed with [TS]

01:01:25   my family code most ago than my work [TS]

01:01:27   calendar is totally bonkers like is just [TS]

01:01:30   massively booked and oversubscribed and [TS]

01:01:32   I would never want that noise in my life [TS]

01:01:33   right and then the life calendar is less [TS]

01:01:37   and there's a split the market but it's [TS]

01:01:39   pretty much the same split that I use [TS]

01:01:40   like on the family calendar it's you [TS]

01:01:44   know podcast recording I would put [TS]

01:01:48   plumber on the calendar it would be an [TS]

01:01:50   all-day item and then reminders are if [TS]

01:01:54   I'm doing something off the normal [TS]

01:01:56   schedule I do put what I do put what [TS]

01:01:59   time I have to leave work on my work [TS]

01:02:01   calendar I do put what time I have to [TS]

01:02:03   leave home on my home calendar for days [TS]

01:02:05   where that is different than normal [TS]

01:02:07   right so if I have to write if I have a [TS]

01:02:10   very early meeting and I want to remind [TS]

01:02:12   myself don't [TS]

01:02:13   yet today you have a early meeting you [TS]

01:02:14   actually have to be working or earlier [TS]

01:02:15   than you normally are I put that on my [TS]

01:02:17   home calendar early in the morning and [TS]

01:02:20   if I have to leave work early to like a [TS]

01:02:21   parent-teacher conference I put that in [TS]

01:02:23   my work calendar which is weird like I [TS]

01:02:24   was thinking about for the to-do apps as [TS]

01:02:26   well and when I use reminders I'm a lot [TS]

01:02:29   of time I'm choosing a system based on [TS]

01:02:31   where I think I'll be when I'll need [TS]

01:02:33   this information and what I think I'll [TS]

01:02:34   be doing if I think my phone will be [TS]

01:02:35   with me reminders is a candidate because [TS]

01:02:37   that's where I'm gonna see it but if I [TS]

01:02:38   think I won't have my phone if I put in [TS]

01:02:40   reminders not gonna do me any good [TS]

01:02:41   you know if I'm if I'm someplace where I [TS]

01:02:43   don't have that and that's the homework [TS]

01:02:46   calendar split is I don't want to look [TS]

01:02:48   at my work calendar at home and I do [TS]

01:02:50   look at my home calendar at work which [TS]

01:02:51   you requires some combining of stuff but [TS]

01:02:54   for the to do stuff like marker said [TS]

01:02:55   with the multiple applications that are [TS]

01:02:57   you know task specific I just got done [TS]

01:03:01   asking for the ability to say like Oh [TS]

01:03:03   reminding you whatever and have you use [TS]

01:03:04   a single app the next logical step and [TS]

01:03:06   that is to have it understand you well [TS]

01:03:08   enough to know when you ask to add [TS]

01:03:10   something to your shopping list that it [TS]

01:03:12   means this Apple when you when you say [TS]

01:03:14   something about the trash it means that [TS]

01:03:15   app right these are all within the realm [TS]

01:03:18   of reason because these are a fairly [TS]

01:03:20   narrow problem demands and also within [TS]

01:03:21   the realm of you know Apple's favorite [TS]

01:03:23   thing machine learning where if you keep [TS]

01:03:25   talking about the trash it should [TS]

01:03:27   eventually like learn or ask you when [TS]

01:03:28   your actual trash day is and you should [TS]

01:03:31   be able to say increasingly offhand and [TS]

01:03:34   casual things which result in the [TS]

01:03:37   correct being reminded at the correct [TS]

01:03:38   time because it has some context in [TS]

01:03:40   history about what you've done in the [TS]

01:03:41   past we're not asking for how bind [TS]

01:03:43   thousand here I think all this is within [TS]

01:03:46   the grass but it's the stuff that [TS]

01:03:47   probably Google probably already knows [TS]

01:03:49   about us from like monitoring all our [TS]

01:03:50   activities through its various [TS]

01:03:51   applications and stuff I [TS]

01:03:54   I would love for those systems to get [TS]

01:03:55   just a little tiny bit smarter so Marco [TS]

01:03:58   how long until you write your own is [TS]

01:04:00   really what we all want to know that is [TS]

01:04:03   not an unreasonable question it would be [TS]

01:04:06   totally my style to get upset with all [TS]

01:04:08   the options and just write my own but [TS]

01:04:10   honestly I don't think that's going to [TS]

01:04:13   happen I you know there's first of all [TS]

01:04:15   there's limited time in the day and it's [TS]

01:04:17   a little bit of a crowded market perhaps [TS]

01:04:19   honestly it well it isn't because [TS]

01:04:22   there's only so many they're actually [TS]

01:04:24   decent [TS]

01:04:25   but the [TS]

01:04:26   problem is that for this is kind of a [TS]

01:04:28   similar problem that that that you know [TS]

01:04:30   John Gruber and Brent Simmons and Dave [TS]

01:04:31   whiskas had with Vesper yeah is that to [TS]

01:04:34   enter this market in a competitive way [TS]

01:04:37   that's that's useful to a lot of people [TS]

01:04:38   you really need to be on like all of the [TS]

01:04:41   Apple platforms at once at launch and [TS]

01:04:43   that's really hard for any India to do [TS]

01:04:46   these days like I'm not gonna use as do [TS]

01:04:49   a to-do app that is not on my Mac and my [TS]

01:04:53   iPhone and my iPad and a lot of people [TS]

01:04:56   are also gonna need a watch app that's [TS]

01:04:57   getting really like the barrier is just [TS]

01:05:00   so high that it is certainly possible [TS]

01:05:02   for people to do it and there's gonna be [TS]

01:05:04   certainly some people who are totally [TS]

01:05:06   fine to have it say only on their phone [TS]

01:05:08   That's not me and that's not it's not [TS]

01:05:10   many people unfortunately and so in [TS]

01:05:13   order to make a good to do a that's [TS]

01:05:14   actually competitive you really need to [TS]

01:05:17   launch on all those platforms at once [TS]

01:05:20   and that's just really a massive amount [TS]

01:05:24   of work that I don't think I'm ever [TS]

01:05:26   gonna have [TS]

01:05:27   not only the bandwidth to do but also [TS]

01:05:28   like I don't have the passion for this [TS]

01:05:30   market at all I'm happy to use these [TS]

01:05:33   apps and talk about them once on a [TS]

01:05:34   podcast for 30 minutes but I really [TS]

01:05:37   don't think I'm going to fall in love [TS]

01:05:39   with to do app systems and suddenly want [TS]

01:05:41   to make my own enough to actually be [TS]

01:05:45   willing to devote the massive amount of [TS]

01:05:47   time it would take to make apps for all [TS]

01:05:50   these platforms to make it actually [TS]

01:05:51   useful [TS]

01:05:52   so another this actually reduces the [TS]

01:05:54   amount of work but it does is a novel [TS]

01:05:56   approach to reducing the apparent [TS]

01:05:58   footprint on all the different platforms [TS]

01:06:00   is the approach that I think I think [TS]

01:06:01   Google is taking this approach I'm sure [TS]

01:06:03   other apps have done it as well where [TS]

01:06:04   you decide that the problem you're [TS]

01:06:06   solving well you know whatever ever is [TS]

01:06:08   to do laptops or whatever you're going [TS]

01:06:10   to implement that entirely server-side [TS]

01:06:12   and with some smart somewhere right and [TS]

01:06:14   that the interface to those smarts will [TS]

01:06:17   be something that is not directly [TS]

01:06:20   connected with a task so in the Google [TS]

01:06:21   in Google's case like I forget what is [TS]

01:06:23   it was it a low or something like they [TS]

01:06:25   basically had a chat app it's bubbles of [TS]

01:06:27   text it's you versus the thing you're [TS]

01:06:28   communicating with and that chat app can [TS]

01:06:31   be used to chat with any person or thing [TS]

01:06:33   there's nothing in the chat app that is [TS]

01:06:35   specific to the problem so you if you [TS]

01:06:37   have the chat app on all the different [TS]

01:06:38   platforms that [TS]

01:06:39   is on your watch it's on your phone it's [TS]

01:06:41   on your Mac or whatever you just write [TS]

01:06:43   that chat app once and then what you're [TS]

01:06:44   conversing with is a series of [TS]

01:06:47   intelligent agents that know how to do [TS]

01:06:48   certain kinds of things and so then you [TS]

01:06:51   implement your to-do app entirely [TS]

01:06:52   server-side and then when you want to do [TS]

01:06:55   your next app which is like you know a [TS]

01:06:57   shopping list it's the same sort of [TS]

01:07:00   interface with the chat type thing or [TS]

01:07:02   speaking or whatever like getting [TS]

01:07:03   getting closer to the idea of not [TS]

01:07:05   looking at pictures and screens and [TS]

01:07:06   poking in them but they're having sort [TS]

01:07:08   of an assistant in helps you with things [TS]

01:07:09   obviously writing the assistant is much [TS]

01:07:11   harder even harder than writing an [TS]

01:07:13   application for all the different [TS]

01:07:14   platforms but that is it's an [TS]

01:07:16   interesting approach to these kinds of [TS]

01:07:18   problems where you're never gonna make [TS]

01:07:22   one user interface or one way of [TS]

01:07:23   organizing that works best but if you [TS]

01:07:25   can make one kind of reasonably fake [TS]

01:07:28   intelligent agent that learns based on [TS]

01:07:30   your habits in some reasonable way it [TS]

01:07:34   could be you know it could be a better [TS]

01:07:38   actually a better experience to be able [TS]

01:07:39   to go back and forth the thing with over [TS]

01:07:43   text invoice and eventually it's sort of [TS]

01:07:46   like having your own very primitive [TS]

01:07:50   personal assistant who in the beginning [TS]

01:07:52   doesn't really know how you like things [TS]

01:07:53   done but eventually learns and that [TS]

01:07:55   could be better than any really nice [TS]

01:07:57   interface that you make on all the [TS]

01:07:58   different platforms and potentially [TS]

01:08:00   easier to maintain because once you've [TS]

01:08:01   mastered that interface whether it's [TS]

01:08:02   faceless talking or just like a chat [TS]

01:08:04   type interface you don't need to revisit [TS]

01:08:06   that that much another angle I [TS]

01:08:08   considered when I when I was thinking [TS]

01:08:10   like should I make my own one of these [TS]

01:08:12   or not is that the reminders like we've [TS]

01:08:16   seen a lot of apps over the last couple [TS]

01:08:18   years that are basically like better [TS]

01:08:21   interfaces to the built-in Apple [TS]

01:08:25   calendar fantastical is number one and [TS]

01:08:28   it's been and I use phantastic owl for [TS]

01:08:30   all of my event entry on the Mac but I [TS]

01:08:33   still use calendar for the for the [TS]

01:08:34   browsing of it but I use for the Xcode [TS]

01:08:36   for entry it's wonderful iCal or rather [TS]

01:08:38   calendar does have a somewhat [TS]

01:08:42   fantastical like natural language entry [TS]

01:08:44   field in recent versions of OS 10 sorry [TS]

01:08:46   if Mac OS but it's not nearly as good so [TS]

01:08:49   I don't use it but the same API exists [TS]

01:08:52   for [TS]

01:08:53   reminders database so one way someone [TS]

01:08:56   could tackle this market I don't know if [TS]

01:08:57   anybody has really in a serious way but [TS]

01:09:00   you could just make a nicer interface to [TS]

01:09:03   the built-in reminders database I don't [TS]

01:09:06   know what the limitations that would be [TS]

01:09:08   I'm sure it's not gonna be nearly as [TS]

01:09:10   full-featured as if you make your own [TS]

01:09:12   database and run your own service but [TS]

01:09:14   that is one way you could do this where [TS]

01:09:16   like if you first just tackle like just [TS]

01:09:19   the Mac first or just iOS first with our [TS]

01:09:21   really nice interface to the reminders [TS]

01:09:23   database maybe that's the way you could [TS]

01:09:25   do it more incrementally but again this [TS]

01:09:27   is not this is not a market that I feel [TS]

01:09:29   passionate enough about to spend my time [TS]

01:09:32   on and unfortunately if you wanted to be [TS]

01:09:35   differentiated in this market which I [TS]

01:09:36   still think is crowded yes there are the [TS]

01:09:38   good ones but there is such a long tail [TS]

01:09:40   of mediocre to bad ones that someone [TS]

01:09:42   somewhere loves right I'm sure because [TS]

01:09:45   the tail is so long that someone has [TS]

01:09:47   already done this but when you were [TS]

01:09:48   talking about and when other people talk [TS]

01:09:49   about these a million to do apps and how [TS]

01:09:51   they do one thing you like but not some [TS]

01:09:52   other thing or whatever I'm always [TS]

01:09:53   reminded of the calculator Construction [TS]

01:09:54   Set sorry about Steve Jobs worth the [TS]

01:09:58   calculator app wasn't quite to his [TS]

01:09:59   liking and the developer was tired of [TS]

01:10:02   hearing him say you know this should be [TS]

01:10:03   like that it just basically made away [TS]

01:10:05   here's Steve you can arrange the buttons [TS]

01:10:07   and size them and like you build the [TS]

01:10:09   calculator that you want so instead of a [TS]

01:10:11   to-do app maker you say well this person [TS]

01:10:13   says they want this but that person said [TS]

01:10:14   they always want that and they want this [TS]

01:10:15   too many demands here you make the to-do [TS]

01:10:17   app you want so if you can make it to do [TS]

01:10:19   app construction kit there was an app [TS]

01:10:20   that gave you the tools to build the app [TS]

01:10:23   that you wanted I mean that maybe that's [TS]

01:10:25   what I'm the focus is and that's what [TS]

01:10:26   marco was recoiling from because it was [TS]

01:10:28   just too darn complicated but I think [TS]

01:10:29   army focus does have at least some point [TS]

01:10:31   of view about what you're doing but if [TS]

01:10:32   you really made a construction kit for [TS]

01:10:34   to do apps where and again I started [TS]

01:10:36   thinking of agents like I don't want to [TS]

01:10:37   get him to a program really quick and [TS]

01:10:40   that just narrows your market to nothing [TS]

01:10:41   cuz no one wants to even do some kind of [TS]

01:10:43   simple programming but if I could [TS]

01:10:45   converse with the application and [TS]

01:10:47   negotiate how things are gonna work you [TS]

01:10:50   know do you want me to remind you once [TS]

01:10:52   you do you always want you me to keep [TS]

01:10:53   reminding you like then the nagging [TS]

01:10:55   thing the case he was talking about you [TS]

01:10:57   know most of the time what do you want [TS]

01:10:59   okay do you want to see all the things [TS]

01:11:02   that are coming up and today or dress [TS]

01:11:03   the things that are due in the next time [TS]

01:11:04   window or like just [TS]

01:11:06   sort of go through the process of [TS]

01:11:09   building the app it's view again that [TS]

01:11:10   would be astronomically hard to make but [TS]

01:11:12   I think it would be I'm assuming it [TS]

01:11:15   would be relatively novel in the market [TS]

01:11:19   because having heard many many dozens of [TS]

01:11:21   hours if people saw you about to do [TS]

01:11:22   absent podcast I have yet to hear [TS]

01:11:24   someone say I tried this construction [TS]

01:11:25   kid and it was terrible so if it doesn't [TS]

01:11:28   guess maybe it's so far in the long tail [TS]

01:11:29   and no one's even seen it we respond to [TS]

01:11:32   this week by betterment listeners can [TS]

01:11:34   get up to one year managed free for more [TS]

01:11:36   information visit betterment comm slash [TS]

01:11:38   ATP betterment is the largest [TS]

01:11:40   independent online financial advisor [TS]

01:11:42   it's designed to help improve customers [TS]

01:11:44   long-term returns and lower your taxes [TS]

01:11:46   for retirement planning building wealth [TS]

01:11:48   and other financial goals betterment [TS]

01:11:50   takes advanced investment strategies and [TS]

01:11:52   use the technology to deliver them to [TS]

01:11:53   more than 300,000 customers based on the [TS]

01:11:57   information that you tell betterment [TS]

01:11:58   they can make tailored recommendations [TS]

01:11:59   for how much to invest how much risk to [TS]

01:12:02   take on your on your portfolio and the [TS]

01:12:04   types of investment portfolios you [TS]

01:12:05   should have and I also have incredible [TS]

01:12:08   features like their socially responsible [TS]

01:12:10   investing portfolio which gives you the [TS]

01:12:12   flexibility to reduce your investment in [TS]

01:12:14   companies that don't meet certain social [TS]

01:12:15   environmental and governance benchmarks [TS]

01:12:17   and all this is brought to you with low [TS]

01:12:19   transparent fees compared to traditional [TS]

01:12:21   services with only a 0.25 percent annual [TS]

01:12:25   fee that includes unlimited messaging [TS]

01:12:27   access to their team of licensed [TS]

01:12:28   financial experts if you have a more [TS]

01:12:30   complex situation betterment premium [TS]

01:12:32   gives you unlimited phone call access to [TS]

01:12:33   their team of certified financial [TS]

01:12:34   planners for only 0.4% annually [TS]

01:12:37   investing involves risk listeners going [TS]

01:12:40   up to one year managed free at [TS]

01:12:41   betterment for more information visit [TS]

01:12:43   betterment comm slash ATP that's [TS]

01:12:46   betterment comm slash ATP thank you to [TS]

01:12:48   betterment for sponsoring our show time [TS]

01:12:54   for some ask ATP let's do it alright [TS]

01:12:56   roar Locker what a great name roar [TS]

01:13:00   that's amazing what what parent decides [TS]

01:13:03   to name their child roar and why didn't [TS]

01:13:05   I think of that [TS]

01:13:06   anyway he or she writes kc do you miss [TS]

01:13:09   this C sharp and dotnet development [TS]

01:13:11   stack I'm taking my computer engineer [TS]

01:13:13   Bachelor degree and I must say that I [TS]

01:13:15   enjoy very much I also like c-sharp much [TS]

01:13:17   better than Swift although I've spent [TS]

01:13:18   more time coding in Swift maybe I'm just [TS]

01:13:20   feeling in Xcode versus Visual Studio [TS]

01:13:22   effects so I miss c-sharp and that's [TS]

01:13:27   about it [TS]

01:13:28   ed dotnet is fine whatever [TS]

01:13:31   like it's good I guess but to me it's [TS]

01:13:35   just a vehicle to give me C sharp [TS]

01:13:37   I do miss C sharp I love Swift I really [TS]

01:13:41   honestly do love Swift [TS]

01:13:42   I like Swift quite a lot but C sharp [TS]

01:13:46   does I've probably said this before on [TS]

01:13:48   the show C sharp does a stunningly good [TS]

01:13:52   job of being all things to all people if [TS]

01:13:56   you want to write sort of kind of [TS]

01:13:59   functional programming and yes I'm aware [TS]

01:14:01   that there's f sharp but like if you [TS]

01:14:03   want to get halfway to functional [TS]

01:14:04   programming you can do that with C sharp [TS]

01:14:05   if you want to write kind of basic [TS]

01:14:08   boring procedural stuff you can do that [TS]

01:14:11   with C sharp if you want to write super [TS]

01:14:12   object-oriented stuff you can do that [TS]

01:14:14   with C sharp and I know that the C sharp [TS]

01:14:16   is not the only language that all this [TS]

01:14:18   applies to I'm waiting for John to jump [TS]

01:14:19   in and talk about pearl but C sharp does [TS]

01:14:22   a really good job of being just about [TS]

01:14:24   anything to anyone and I do miss xishi [TS]

01:14:26   sharp a lot I am I don't really mind X [TS]

01:14:31   code which means one of a couple things [TS]

01:14:34   it means either I'm still a noob which [TS]

01:14:36   is possible it means either I just [TS]

01:14:38   haven't been burned by it which is semi [TS]

01:14:41   true or it means I'm an idiot which is [TS]

01:14:43   possible as well but in the same way [TS]

01:14:47   that everyone else seems to complain and [TS]

01:14:49   moan about X code like I don't really [TS]

01:14:51   mind it and maybe it's because Visual [TS]

01:14:55   Studio well great in many ways is [TS]

01:14:57   aesthetically an assault on my eyes and [TS]

01:15:01   Xcode for all of its faults Xcode does [TS]

01:15:04   one thing very well and that's be very [TS]

01:15:07   very pretty Marco you said something [TS]

01:15:08   earlier about you know hey I'm a Mac [TS]

01:15:09   user and I'm an apple person so I like [TS]

01:15:12   things to be pretty or well designed I [TS]

01:15:14   forget how you phrased it earlier but [TS]

01:15:15   yeah it's it's that right like Xcode is [TS]

01:15:19   painful in some ways but a it is and [TS]

01:15:23   forever will be better than eclipse [TS]

01:15:25   don't email me and B it is it is not [TS]

01:15:30   that bad in my personal opinion now if [TS]

01:15:33   you want to talk about [TS]

01:15:34   Swift like code completion what is its [TS]

01:15:36   source kit is that what I'm thinking of [TS]

01:15:37   like source kit is at an utter disaster [TS]

01:15:39   but Xcode itself it's not bad and I like [TS]

01:15:44   it and do I miss Visual Studio no not [TS]

01:15:47   really [TS]

01:15:47   and holy hell do I not miss anything [TS]

01:15:51   related to Windows nothing about Windows [TS]

01:15:54   is something I miss or long for I am so [TS]

01:15:58   unbelievably thankful to be off Windows [TS]

01:16:01   I cannot even verbalize it I am so [TS]

01:16:04   thankful to be away from that so I miss [TS]

01:16:08   C sharp net whatever it's something that [TS]

01:16:10   gives me C sharp Visual Studio me [TS]

01:16:13   windows hell no I don't miss it [TS]

01:16:16   right David steer asks the next time you [TS]

01:16:18   discuss single versus multi thread [TS]

01:16:20   processing would it be possible to give [TS]

01:16:21   it a couple of real-world examples of [TS]

01:16:23   tasks or applications that perform [TS]

01:16:24   better in each process I love the show [TS]

01:16:27   but a mother technical and sometimes I [TS]

01:16:29   struggled to and sometimes struggled to [TS]

01:16:31   give context to your discussions trying [TS]

01:16:33   to figure out exactly what is being [TS]

01:16:35   asked here because one way to read it is [TS]

01:16:40   like what types of things benefit from [TS]

01:16:42   multiple threads and that's getting into [TS]

01:16:44   the Marco zone of like look if you're [TS]

01:16:45   doing this type of task and you got a [TS]

01:16:47   10-car Mac Pro you'll see a big benefit [TS]

01:16:48   a Mac Pro but if you're doing this kind [TS]

01:16:50   of task you're not going to see a [TS]

01:16:52   benefit because it's not you know it [TS]

01:16:54   doesn't use multiple cores and the and [TS]

01:16:56   which tests those are really depends on [TS]

01:16:58   a lot of factors including just like [TS]

01:17:00   what the application is like I think [TS]

01:17:01   Final Cut Pro 10 wasn't particularly [TS]

01:17:03   strong at multi-threading until recently [TS]

01:17:05   so but that doesn't mean video [TS]

01:17:07   processing does or doesn't benefit [TS]

01:17:08   multi-threading [TS]

01:17:09   the other way to think about this [TS]

01:17:10   question is they're asking like what [TS]

01:17:14   makes something a problem to which you [TS]

01:17:17   can apply some parallelism beyond like [TS]

01:17:23   you know any kind of parallelism or like [TS]

01:17:25   degrees of parallelism I think that's I [TS]

01:17:27   think that's probably closer to the [TS]

01:17:29   answer so I'm going to try to give a [TS]

01:17:32   non-technical explanation it's best I [TS]

01:17:35   can do this so doing stuff in parallel [TS]

01:17:39   requires a problem where you can break [TS]

01:17:43   it up into pieces and that the pieces [TS]

01:17:45   don't have dependencies between them or [TS]

01:17:47   don't [TS]

01:17:47   have a lot of dependencies between the [TS]

01:17:50   obvious example that comes up a lot is [TS]

01:17:53   almost anything having to do with [TS]

01:17:55   graphics processing where you've got a [TS]

01:17:58   lot of dots on your screen and for the [TS]

01:18:00   most part dots may depend on their [TS]

01:18:02   neighboring dots but they don't depend [TS]

01:18:04   on the dots way over at the other side [TS]

01:18:05   so if you're taking an entire image and [TS]

01:18:07   blurring it you can break that image up [TS]

01:18:09   into a bunch of smaller pieces dole out [TS]

01:18:11   those pieces to a bunch of things that [TS]

01:18:14   are gonna work on them all at the same [TS]

01:18:15   time and then put the pieces back [TS]

01:18:16   together at the end lots of graphics [TS]

01:18:19   cards do exactly that for you know [TS]

01:18:22   tiling processing but in general just [TS]

01:18:23   the giant array of pixels [TS]

01:18:25   they are worked on as much as possible [TS]

01:18:28   in parallel by your graphics card [TS]

01:18:30   there's probably a Wikipedia page on [TS]

01:18:31   this expression but there is a term of [TS]

01:18:33   art in the computer science world called [TS]

01:18:34   embarrassingly parallel problems where [TS]

01:18:37   it is so easy to parallel eyes because [TS]

01:18:39   you can break it up and do as many [TS]

01:18:40   chunks is you want and there are a lot [TS]

01:18:42   of chunks and so it's like look if you [TS]

01:18:44   gave me a million processors this [TS]

01:18:46   problem is embarrassingly parallel I [TS]

01:18:48   could break it up into a million pieces [TS]

01:18:50   and do them all at once and it would be [TS]

01:18:52   a million times faster than doing them [TS]

01:18:54   one at a time right you know assuming [TS]

01:18:57   the thing is processes at the same time [TS]

01:18:58   so whether something performs in [TS]

01:19:02   parallelize is based on sort of the [TS]

01:19:04   nature of the problem there are problems [TS]

01:19:06   that you can't do in parallel because [TS]

01:19:08   the to do step one to do step two you [TS]

01:19:12   need the answer from step one to do step [TS]

01:19:14   three you need the answer for step two [TS]

01:19:15   so you can't break you can't do steps [TS]

01:19:17   one two and three all at the same time [TS]

01:19:18   and so that's the high level computer [TS]

01:19:22   size the explanation you can apply your [TS]

01:19:24   basic reasoning about things to try to [TS]

01:19:27   discover whether a particular problem [TS]

01:19:29   you're having is parallelizable in any [TS]

01:19:34   way is it embarrassingly parallel [TS]

01:19:36   izybelle [TS]

01:19:37   or is it generally serial by nature but [TS]

01:19:42   that's when we get into the complexity [TS]

01:19:43   is like well this problem is [TS]

01:19:44   parallelizable say mp3 encoding but it [TS]

01:19:46   turns out the mp3 encoder I have doesn't [TS]

01:19:49   do anything in parallel it just does it [TS]

01:19:51   from the beginning to the end and that's [TS]

01:19:53   where marco said well I can it's not [TS]

01:19:54   embarrassingly parallel but I can break [TS]

01:19:56   this audio track up into five pieces and [TS]

01:19:59   encode all five at the same time [TS]

01:20:01   and then put the five pieces back [TS]

01:20:02   together and now I've done it five times [TS]

01:20:04   faster right you can't break it up into [TS]

01:20:06   a billion pieces because at a certain [TS]

01:20:08   point you're doing I don't know what the [TS]

01:20:10   size is Marco would know if like a [TS]

01:20:11   single frame or whatever that 1,200 [TS]

01:20:13   samples [TS]

01:20:13   yeah like there there is some you know [TS]

01:20:15   some unit size that beyond which you [TS]

01:20:17   don't get any benefit but that's an [TS]

01:20:20   example where the problem itself is [TS]

01:20:22   parallelizable but the but you can say [TS]

01:20:24   if I buy a faster computer my mp3 [TS]

01:20:26   encoding will be faster not if you're [TS]

01:20:28   using an unparalleled mp3 encoder it [TS]

01:20:30   won't so it gets a little bit [TS]

01:20:32   complicated okay see you want to try a [TS]

01:20:33   different angle yeah so what I've been [TS]

01:20:36   working on lately is this thing where I [TS]

01:20:38   have a folder full of photographs right [TS]

01:20:41   or there may be live photos so it's a [TS]

01:20:43   photograph in and a movie and I want to [TS]

01:20:47   file them away in a particular way and [TS]

01:20:50   what I've run into is some of this is [TS]

01:20:53   parallelizable and some of the some of [TS]

01:20:54   it is not so if you think about it [TS]

01:20:57   anytime that I have a any photo that [TS]

01:21:02   doesn't share a date so if for example [TS]

01:21:04   on on today which is the 7th of February [TS]

01:21:07   I take only one photograph with my [TS]

01:21:10   iPhone I can without worrying about a [TS]

01:21:15   conflict I can just copy that to where I [TS]

01:21:18   want it to go right because without [TS]

01:21:21   worrying about a conflict with any other [TS]

01:21:22   photos taken from my iPhone I can copy [TS]

01:21:24   it to where I want it to go but if I [TS]

01:21:26   take 15 or if I took 15 photos yesterday [TS]

01:21:29   it's possible that maybe some of those [TS]

01:21:32   were taken at the same hour minute and [TS]

01:21:33   second maybe I did a burst or something [TS]

01:21:35   like that and so some of this is [TS]

01:21:37   paralyzed of parallelizable in some of [TS]

01:21:40   it is not I've met when I was relisting [TS]

01:21:43   last week's episode I meant to talk to [TS]

01:21:45   you more about how you're gonna resolve [TS]

01:21:46   your race condition and how you said my [TS]

01:21:47   thing is bug-free except for the massive [TS]

01:21:48   reason that's not bug free I mean you [TS]

01:21:52   could you could parallelize by day what [TS]

01:21:55   I've what I was trying to explain and I [TS]

01:21:57   think I've done a poor job of it and [TS]

01:21:58   that's why I want it to be cut is that [TS]

01:21:59   if if in the batch of photos that I have [TS]

01:22:02   I have no conflicts in terms of date so [TS]

01:22:09   the hour minute and second is unique all [TS]

01:22:11   of the photos or movies or [TS]

01:22:14   all the media that has a unique hour [TS]

01:22:17   minute and second can be processed in [TS]

01:22:21   parallel so that is to say it may have a [TS]

01:22:24   conflict in the tour in the destination [TS]

01:22:26   but it doesn't have a tart or it doesn't [TS]

01:22:28   have a conflict amongst its peers that [TS]

01:22:31   I'm doing that that are being imported [TS]

01:22:33   that does that make any sense at all so [TS]

01:22:35   it does yeah but I'm honestly I'm kind [TS]

01:22:38   of wondering like does this problem [TS]

01:22:40   benefit from parallelization like it [TS]

01:22:42   seems like it's pretty fast to just dump [TS]

01:22:46   the files serially so here's the thing [TS]

01:22:48   the problem with the the reason I think [TS]

01:22:50   it may benefit from parallelization is [TS]

01:22:52   that there's two different things at [TS]

01:22:54   play number one let's say that I took a [TS]

01:22:57   photo at exactly noon today just for the [TS]

01:23:01   sake of discussion I took a photo at [TS]

01:23:02   exactly noon today and it turns out that [TS]

01:23:05   the destination so my photo repository [TS]

01:23:09   that has every photograph I've ever [TS]

01:23:10   taken also already has by some mechanism [TS]

01:23:14   don't worry about why but let's just say [TS]

01:23:16   it already has a photo that was taken at [TS]

01:23:19   exactly noon today at 12 o'clock at 0 [TS]

01:23:21   minutes and 0 seconds one of the things [TS]

01:23:24   that my app is going to do is it is it's [TS]

01:23:27   going to say hey let me take an md5 of [TS]

01:23:31   the source that I'm trying to import and [TS]

01:23:33   of the thing that's already at the [TS]

01:23:34   target and if the md5 is the same then I [TS]

01:23:38   need to take like evasive action so to [TS]

01:23:40   speak so I need to increment the the [TS]

01:23:43   fire I need to add a suffix to the [TS]

01:23:44   imported file name so instead of being [TS]

01:23:46   2018 - o - - o 7 space 12 - oo - oo the [TS]

01:23:53   imported file will be all of that with [TS]

01:23:55   an A at the end the letter A at the end [TS]

01:23:57   because they're two different files well [TS]

01:23:59   if you're doing that across a whole [TS]

01:24:01   bunch of files at once which presumably [TS]

01:24:03   I am that may be well-served to be [TS]

01:24:06   parallelized because on an average [TS]

01:24:08   modern processor you have at least two [TS]

01:24:11   if not four or six or eight or ten or [TS]

01:24:14   twelve or 18 cores which are all working [TS]

01:24:16   simultaneously to solve problems and so [TS]

01:24:19   it makes sense to split this same kind [TS]

01:24:23   of operation across all or at least some [TS]

01:24:26   of these cores [TS]

01:24:27   where it doesn't make sense to split it [TS]

01:24:30   is if I have multiple pictures that were [TS]

01:24:33   taken at 12 o'clock in 0 seconds because [TS]

01:24:35   then I can get into this race condition [TS]

01:24:38   that I found earlier which is to say the [TS]

01:24:41   the the first photo that I'm processing [TS]

01:24:44   looks at the target and says oh there's [TS]

01:24:47   nothing there and starts the copy the [TS]

01:24:50   second photo that I'm processing looks [TS]

01:24:53   at the target and says oh there's [TS]

01:24:54   nothing there and tries to start the [TS]

01:24:56   copy but then they collide with each [TS]

01:24:57   other and that's the problem that I was [TS]

01:24:59   running into before and that's in I'm [TS]

01:25:01   solving it now by parallelizing anything [TS]

01:25:04   that doesn't have an internal conflict [TS]

01:25:06   because even if it has a conflict at the [TS]

01:25:07   target that's fine it doesn't matter I [TS]

01:25:10   can still parallelize it but if it has [TS]

01:25:13   an internal conflict then then then I [TS]

01:25:16   have a problem and so anything that [TS]

01:25:19   doesn't have an internal conflict can be [TS]

01:25:20   parallelized anything that has an [TS]

01:25:22   internal conflict will be serialized so [TS]

01:25:24   what if you in parallel read the input [TS]

01:25:27   files get there get whatever date and [TS]

01:25:30   timestamp buckets they belong to and [TS]

01:25:32   stuff all that into an array then in [TS]

01:25:35   then serially just have a thing run [TS]

01:25:37   through that array look for the [TS]

01:25:38   conflicts resolve them and do all the [TS]

01:25:40   renaming serially because like that's [TS]

01:25:41   gonna be like that's gonna be so fast [TS]

01:25:43   anyway like you're really just relying [TS]

01:25:44   on the file system speed at that point [TS]

01:25:46   yes but no but the thing that I haven't [TS]

01:25:49   mentioned and I have made I I alluded to [TS]

01:25:51   this earlier than never actually put a [TS]

01:25:53   period on the sentence the thing that I [TS]

01:25:55   haven't mentioned is that my target for [TS]

01:25:57   all of these image and also movie files [TS]

01:26:00   my target is actually my Synology so [TS]

01:26:03   it's not the local file system I have to [TS]

01:26:05   crawl across the network to do all of [TS]

01:26:07   these check sums and to figure out if [TS]

01:26:11   these files are identical or not and [TS]

01:26:12   some of these video setup that I'm [TS]

01:26:14   taking I mean like like five or ten [TS]

01:26:16   minutes of 4k video off the iPhone is [TS]

01:26:18   multiple gigabytes so if it a rename [TS]

01:26:21   should be quick right isn't that what a [TS]

01:26:24   well you could import it somewhere first [TS]

01:26:26   then do a rename later it really fast [TS]

01:26:28   yes but what again what I'm what my [TS]

01:26:30   process is that I'm saying hey I found a [TS]

01:26:35   identically named file at the [TS]

01:26:37   destination which in my case happens to [TS]

01:26:39   be a Synology so I need two MD [TS]

01:26:41   five both the local file that is on my [TS]

01:26:43   local file system are at worst on an SD [TS]

01:26:45   card attached to my physical computer [TS]

01:26:47   but I also need to do an md5 on the [TS]

01:26:50   remote file that's on the Synology and [TS]

01:26:52   that can take forever and that's why I [TS]

01:26:53   want to paralyze it so anything that has [TS]

01:26:56   a conflict [TS]

01:26:56   I want to parallel eyes anything that [TS]

01:26:59   I'm sorry anything that doesn't have a [TS]

01:27:02   conflict internally anything that that I [TS]

01:27:05   know will not collide with any of the [TS]

01:27:08   other files I'm importing that can be [TS]

01:27:10   parallelized it's the the what I worry [TS]

01:27:12   about is if I have 15 files on my SD [TS]

01:27:15   card that we're all taken at twelve [TS]

01:27:17   o'clock in 0 seconds that's what I need [TS]

01:27:20   to do it serially because otherwise I [TS]

01:27:21   run into a situation where I say oh just [TS]

01:27:23   the target that makes sense but so but [TS]

01:27:25   like what when when something is slow in [TS]

01:27:28   this case it's probably being limited by [TS]

01:27:30   like the transfer bandwidth of the SD [TS]

01:27:33   card or the network protocol for really [TS]

01:27:35   whatever like I dis paralyzing those [TS]

01:27:38   actually get you anything or is it just [TS]

01:27:40   clog it up and make everything run you [TS]

01:27:42   know like where you can run ten things [TS]

01:27:43   at 1/10 the speed each he's already [TS]

01:27:44   spent more time writing this program [TS]

01:27:46   that he's gonna point out that your race [TS]

01:27:50   condition is like a look canonical race [TS]

01:27:52   condition which is if something's okay [TS]

01:27:54   and then go do the thing and while [TS]

01:27:55   you're going to do the thing something [TS]

01:27:57   that you check was okay is right so my [TS]

01:27:59   suggestion for a strategy for dealing [TS]

01:28:01   with this that doesn't involve [TS]

01:28:02   serializing any portion of it is to use [TS]

01:28:05   what other past technologies have used [TS]

01:28:08   including unix and in this specific case [TS]

01:28:10   Ethernet you want carrier sense multiple [TS]

01:28:12   access with collision detection it's [TS]

01:28:15   kind of getting it what a marker always [TS]

01:28:16   saying don't do everything in parallel [TS]

01:28:19   you just need some kind of remotely [TS]

01:28:21   atomic operation and even with an ass if [TS]

01:28:24   you can get the stuff on to the nasa and [TS]

01:28:25   do a rename local to the nasa hopefully [TS]

01:28:27   you can get atomic renames and then you [TS]

01:28:31   just try to do your rename and if your [TS]

01:28:33   name fails because the file exists you [TS]

01:28:35   increment it and then you try to do the [TS]

01:28:37   rename again and you do binding [TS]

01:28:38   exponential back-off and you just let [TS]

01:28:40   all the parallel things fight it out and [TS]

01:28:42   because there is no inherent order to [TS]

01:28:44   things that are literally you don't have [TS]

01:28:45   any increased resolution if you did [TS]

01:28:46   you'd put it in the file name right [TS]

01:28:48   there's no inherent order to the new and [TS]

01:28:50   pictures right they're all just new in [TS]

01:28:52   pictures mmm so let me Duke it out you [TS]

01:28:54   don't [TS]

01:28:55   no no locks no shared state no wig no [TS]

01:28:58   serialization and you'd be surprised at [TS]

01:29:01   how nicely things terminate because this [TS]

01:29:03   is the network's it tries and if the [TS]

01:29:05   line is busy it weights a little bit and [TS]

01:29:06   tries again if it's still busy awaits a [TS]

01:29:08   little bit longer and tries again and [TS]

01:29:09   everything works yeah but there is a bit [TS]

01:29:13   of an inherent order right because the [TS]

01:29:15   source file name is like IMG underscore [TS]

01:29:18   1 1 1 1 IMG underscore 1 are you tell me [TS]

01:29:22   about that so why aren't you using that [TS]

01:29:23   as your tiebreaker [TS]

01:29:24   yeah wait you have sequential name from [TS]

01:29:25   the in the source that doesn't that [TS]

01:29:28   totally solve your problem well that's [TS]

01:29:30   why I'm running the collision that the [TS]

01:29:32   potential collision stuff serially [TS]

01:29:34   that's exactly why I'm running it [TS]

01:29:35   serially so I'm guaranteed you've [TS]

01:29:37   already got you you've already got a [TS]

01:29:39   unique unique a fire that you'll never [TS]

01:29:42   have a collision because you've got the [TS]

01:29:43   date you're doing the import and you've [TS]

01:29:45   got a sequence number [TS]

01:29:46   yeah what's what's the problem he [TS]

01:29:48   doesn't want to put two dates in the [TS]

01:29:49   final menses problem it's too much too [TS]

01:29:51   much of an aesthetic is this happening [TS]

01:29:53   in these file names there no you're [TS]

01:29:54   right because I want it to be you know [TS]

01:29:56   2018 most 2018 Oh 207 people are using a [TS]

01:30:00   and B do you go to a a and then a B and [TS]

01:30:03   then a see the you think oh ay ay ay ay [TS]

01:30:06   I've never run into a situation when [TS]

01:30:09   that's a problem but I understand your [TS]

01:30:10   point and there's another another bug [TS]

01:30:12   free program that you'll never be more [TS]

01:30:13   than 26 conflicts you sir you are why I [TS]

01:30:18   will never open source yes when the [TS]

01:30:20   iPhone 15 shoots shoots like you know 30 [TS]

01:30:23   frame per second burst photos you're [TS]

01:30:26   gonna have a problem I think the problem [TS]

01:30:28   is that you're not an old and crusty [TS]

01:30:29   enough programmer is always fine and I'm [TS]

01:30:33   like do we need to use unsigned 256 bit [TS]

01:30:42   something that briefly touched on like [TS]

01:30:44   source code to like one of those Bitcoin [TS]

01:30:45   or some other cryptocurrency and they [TS]

01:30:48   were literally using like that I'd never [TS]

01:30:49   seen it in like seed like the the you [TS]

01:30:52   256 type for like for one of their [TS]

01:30:54   values because they're like 64 bits is [TS]

01:30:56   not enough we need 200 expensive [TS]

01:30:59   unsigned precision for this value like [TS]

01:31:02   AB you are really future proofing this [TS]

01:31:04   thing that will be gone in two years not [TS]

01:31:06   not Bitcoin just some other random I I [TS]

01:31:08   see [TS]

01:31:09   so moving on so where do we leave this [TS]

01:31:12   cuz John you did exactly what you were [TS]

01:31:13   supposed to do which is give it over to [TS]

01:31:15   me and then I completely ruined it [TS]

01:31:16   I tried but I think that we have that [TS]

01:31:18   question has been addressed to the best [TS]

01:31:20   that we can do in a ski teepee style [TS]

01:31:22   segment really you should you'll be able [TS]

01:31:24   to talk about it with Mike when you do [TS]

01:31:25   like your computer science e-learning [TS]

01:31:27   stuff if that even that even keeps on [TS]

01:31:30   and wait a second since when did you [TS]

01:31:32   ever listen to analog I know you do from [TS]

01:31:34   time to time but I am vaguely aware of [TS]

01:31:37   many podcasts like you're my dad the [TS]

01:31:42   best way to characterize my current [TS]

01:31:43   podcast listening which is very spotty [TS]

01:31:47   and diffuse no I was doing that I know I [TS]

01:31:53   know all right [TS]

01:31:54   so Thomas no switz saw or something like [TS]

01:31:58   that writes have any of you ever tried [TS]

01:32:00   meditation please discuss no I have [TS]

01:32:02   never tried meditation John I'm pretty [TS]

01:32:06   sure no I might have done something no [TS]

01:32:15   you have lots of things qualify as [TS]

01:32:18   meditation and I'm sure as a teenager I [TS]

01:32:22   probably did one of those things that [TS]

01:32:25   was called sleeping thing that was [TS]

01:32:30   called zoning out no no anyway I'm gonna [TS]

01:32:33   say no that no is the quick answer I too [TS]

01:32:37   have not tried anything III have a vague [TS]

01:32:39   concept of the kinds of things you're [TS]

01:32:41   supposed to do I I kind of want to try [TS]

01:32:44   it someday but it's never been more than [TS]

01:32:46   like a passing notion like that for me I [TS]

01:32:48   was hoping one of us had done that's why [TS]

01:32:50   I put this question in there's like [TS]

01:32:51   surely one of us has tried meditation [TS]

01:32:52   but nope we've just heard podcast about [TS]

01:32:54   it you know what I really want to do I [TS]

01:32:55   really want to get a hypnotized sometime [TS]

01:32:58   because I think that's bogus I think [TS]

01:32:59   it's a bunch of malarkey and I don't [TS]

01:33:01   think it's real but I want to start [TS]

01:33:02   smoking so then you can try to get [TS]

01:33:04   hypnotized to stop oh my god [TS]

01:33:05   now we're gonna hear from so many people [TS]

01:33:07   about everything that just happen [TS]

01:33:08   alright so thanks for sponsors this week [TS]

01:33:10   Kaspar betterment and hellofresh and we [TS]

01:33:12   will see you next week [TS]

01:33:13   we're gonna hear from listen we just [TS]

01:33:15   haven't tried meditation but we just [TS]

01:33:16   helped the truth I don't really say [TS]

01:33:18   anything bad about meditation Casey said [TS]

01:33:20   bad things about hypnotism yeah [TS]

01:33:21   we're gonna hear from the meditation [TS]

01:33:23   people the smoking people the hypnotists [TS]

01:33:25   people who have been hypnotized [TS]

01:33:27   allegedly more like we're gonna hear [TS]

01:33:28   from all of those people now I think you [TS]

01:33:31   might hear from the hypnotize people but [TS]

01:33:32   you won't hear were smokers who's gonna [TS]

01:33:33   object to the joke about smoking [TS]

01:33:35   hypnotism you'd be surprised [TS]

01:33:37   hypnotists I don't know it helps some [TS]

01:33:39   people quit smoking if that's the goal [TS]

01:33:41   who cares [TS]

01:33:42   does it work did it help you quit [TS]

01:33:43   smoking sure yeah I suppose it doesn't [TS]

01:33:45   really matter yeah you just have to if [TS]

01:33:47   you believe it works and it actually [TS]

01:33:48   helps you quit smoking great like stand [TS]

01:33:51   on your head whatever works don't smoke [TS]

01:33:53   kids it's terrible now the show is over [TS]

01:33:59   they didn't even mean to begin as it was [TS]

01:34:03   accidental oh it was accidental johnny [TS]

01:34:09   research Margo and Casey wouldn't let [TS]

01:34:12   him [TS]

01:34:12   because it was accidentally was [TS]

01:34:16   accidental you can find the show notes [TS]

01:34:20   at adp yl is s so that's K sealless ma [TS]

01:34:34   RC o AR m and T Marco baby update I so I [TS]

01:35:01   love Michaela to death she is adorable [TS]

01:35:03   and she is my precious little angel yet [TS]

01:35:05   if she doesn't learned how to sleep I'm [TS]

01:35:07   going to go insane she's brand new like [TS]

01:35:11   this is like this takes a while usually [TS]

01:35:13   I am extremely lucky to I've had one [TS]

01:35:15   child let alone two I cannot believe my [TS]

01:35:19   good fortune that I have had two so far [TS]

01:35:22   healthy children either one of them [TS]

01:35:24   could have been unhealthy or had some [TS]

01:35:26   sort of physical ailment that would have [TS]

01:35:28   been really unfortunately in so many [TS]

01:35:30   ways I am extremely lucky but in the [TS]

01:35:33   heat of the moment it's funny how you [TS]

01:35:35   kind of forget that I'm so miserable so [TS]

01:35:40   how long are the usual sleep stretches [TS]

01:35:42   at night between two and a half and [TS]

01:35:44   three and a half hours now it's not you [TS]

01:35:46   which is not terrible but is not great [TS]

01:35:50   and to be fair the funniest part of this [TS]

01:35:53   is that Aaron hasn't really woken me up [TS]

01:35:56   deliberately to help with the nighttime [TS]

01:35:58   stuff in like a week so I am being this [TS]

01:36:02   much of a baby and all I'm doing is [TS]

01:36:04   getting woken up when I hear the cry and [TS]

01:36:05   then going right back to roll over [TS]

01:36:11   no this is true this is how ridiculous [TS]

01:36:13   men are you're really not having a good [TS]

01:36:15   showing right now oh no I know I'm fully [TS]

01:36:17   aware of this a hundred percent and [TS]

01:36:19   maybe I shouldn't maybe I should not all [TS]

01:36:21   men myself but like okay I mean all men [TS]

01:36:24   I [TS]

01:36:24   cannot feed i cannot feed Mikayla I [TS]

01:36:27   don't have the equipment to feed Mikayla [TS]

01:36:29   right but the fact that I'm this much of [TS]

01:36:31   a baby after being woken up like John [TS]

01:36:33   said by a bunch of like oh yeah oh geez [TS]

01:36:36   we gotta wake up earlier to go to work [TS]

01:36:37   in the morning right oh right [TS]

01:36:39   every part of this is B being but I'm [TS]

01:36:42   the biggest baby in the house a for me [TS]

01:36:44   look I can help you with two liquids [TS]

01:36:49   vodka and coffee I will let you decide [TS]

01:36:52   when to apply each one to the baby these [TS]

01:36:59   both go into you at different time don't [TS]

01:37:02   do at the same time it's a bad idea and [TS]

01:37:04   early may not appreciated you doing [TS]

01:37:06   things that she can't yeah that's also [TS]

01:37:08   part of it but but you know if if you [TS]

01:37:11   being a little bit happier and a little [TS]

01:37:14   bit more functional turns into you being [TS]

01:37:16   a little more helpful unless of a baby [TS]

01:37:18   she might appreciate yeah right so so [TS]

01:37:21   yeah this you know obviously this is a [TS]

01:37:24   hard time for anybody it is it is it [TS]

01:37:27   could be so much worse like I don't [TS]

01:37:29   think that Mikayla is is to the point of [TS]

01:37:31   being having colic I don't know what the [TS]

01:37:34   right right phrasing is but she is very [TS]

01:37:37   fussy for a lot of the day but I would [TS]

01:37:39   not go to go so far as to say that she [TS]

01:37:41   is like you know Alex was or anything [TS]

01:37:43   like that like she is she is manageable [TS]

01:37:46   but horrible Alex by comparison John's [TS]

01:37:50   eldest was from everything I've been [TS]

01:37:52   told indescribable bad in a way you'll [TS]

01:37:56   know you're reached Alex level when you [TS]

01:37:58   find yourself bringing your baby to a [TS]

01:37:59   chiropractor oh yeah no no no not even [TS]

01:38:02   in the baby is it in constant pain is it [TS]

01:38:06   filled with spice I'm going to go to a [TS]

01:38:10   quack non-doctor [TS]

01:38:13   anything scan my baby is it filled with [TS]

01:38:16   bees like we will try anything that has [TS]

01:38:26   is there a spell on my baby colic is one [TS]

01:38:35   of those words it means nothing - it's [TS]

01:38:36   like what [TS]

01:38:37   that means you're busy cries oh yeah [TS]

01:38:40   that's something like I recognize that [TS]

01:38:41   I'm being the biggest baby in the world [TS]

01:38:44   I I mean that you're doing something [TS]

01:38:47   hard right like it's for anybody even [TS]

01:38:49   even for like the weak baby men it's [TS]

01:38:53   having a new infant in the house that [TS]

01:38:55   you're caring for is a lot of work and [TS]

01:38:57   it's hard on everybody so you know you [TS]

01:38:59   don't need to belittle yourself over [TS]

01:39:01   that it's hard for everybody it's not [TS]

01:39:04   constructive or useful to get into like [TS]

01:39:07   trying to outdo each other of like oh [TS]

01:39:10   well it's hard for me well it's hard for [TS]

01:39:11   me to like don't worry about that like [TS]

01:39:13   that's not constructive it's hard for [TS]

01:39:16   everybody it's hard for you it's hard [TS]

01:39:18   for Aaron it's hard for Mikayla it's [TS]

01:39:20   probably hard for Declan to like it's [TS]

01:39:21   hard for everyone second sleeping like a [TS]

01:39:23   baby so to speak thankfully misery feels [TS]

01:39:34   like unfair it's like oh come on you [TS]

01:39:35   can't wake the other one up we did all [TS]

01:39:37   the work like it's everyone it's a hard [TS]

01:39:43   time for everyone so the best thing you [TS]

01:39:45   can do is just try to be as functional [TS]

01:39:51   and useful as you can and try to add as [TS]

01:39:55   little drama and problems as possible to [TS]

01:39:58   the situation that is already very hard [TS]

01:40:00   on everybody so whatever you need to do [TS]

01:40:03   to do that do that so if that's coffee [TS]

01:40:06   sometimes I'm vodka some other times [TS]

01:40:08   fine keep it under control but if [TS]

01:40:10   otherwise fine like you know if it just [TS]

01:40:13   like cuz like that's the most helpful [TS]

01:40:14   thing you can do right now for everyone [TS]

01:40:17   including yourself is to try to make [TS]

01:40:20   yourself useful and to try to not get [TS]

01:40:22   bogged down by the hardships and drama [TS]

01:40:25   of this although like wait you were [TS]

01:40:27   trying to remind yourself how lucky you [TS]

01:40:29   are which is a place that parents often [TS]

01:40:30   go to try and I found a perhaps more [TS]

01:40:34   successful method is to remind yourself [TS]

01:40:36   in it you should have an easy time for [TS]

01:40:38   this to remind yourself this this will [TS]

01:40:39   pass like they don't stay they don't [TS]

01:40:42   stay babies forever like you you can do [TS]

01:40:44   it you have done it and this will pass [TS]

01:40:46   and I find I personally find that much [TS]

01:40:48   more comforting than trying to remind [TS]

01:40:49   myself lucky [TS]

01:40:50   because that's like okay another night [TS]

01:40:53   off the chalkboard like the kid is [TS]

01:40:55   getting older this he's he or she is not [TS]

01:40:58   going to be three months old forever yes [TS]

01:41:01   literally earlier tonight as we were [TS]

01:41:03   recording [TS]

01:41:04   I sent the following text to Aaron but [TS]

01:41:07   in the same way nobody goes to college [TS]

01:41:08   in diapers she will eventually learn to [TS]

01:41:11   sleep that's a big one with potty [TS]

01:41:15   training is the other time you remind [TS]

01:41:16   yourself most kids are not thirty and [TS]

01:41:19   still going in the diaper it's gonna [TS]

01:41:21   happen I remember reminding Marco of [TS]

01:41:23   that remember but now it's done like [TS]

01:41:27   it's it's totally like it's it's kind of [TS]

01:41:30   surprising like you know it seems like [TS]

01:41:32   you're doing it forever and then one day [TS]

01:41:34   it just kind of just you're past it it [TS]

01:41:37   just happens that he's probably not [TS]

01:41:39   gonna go off to college with diapers [TS]

01:41:40   exactly and it seems like when you're in [TS]

01:41:43   it it seems like it's never gonna end [TS]

01:41:45   and you're like oh my god what is the [TS]

01:41:47   problem here good effect over to the [TS]

01:41:48   chiropractor yeah I know but the reality [TS]

01:41:52   is like yeah it'll end and so you just [TS]

01:41:54   you know get through it keep yourself [TS]

01:41:56   and your family healthy and as happy as [TS]

01:41:59   possible given the challenge and and do [TS]

01:42:01   like I'm not saying you have to go to [TS]

01:42:03   the extreme I'm going to like your your [TS]

01:42:04   local neighborhood like psychic or [TS]

01:42:07   Exorcist but you bring up all the issues [TS]

01:42:12   with the doctor because some babies have [TS]

01:42:14   reflux and there's all sorts of [TS]

01:42:15   legitimate reasons that can be treated [TS]

01:42:17   they can they can help and so you might [TS]

01:42:19   you should exhaust those right just [TS]

01:42:23   maybe don't go the step further and [TS]

01:42:24   start you know being totally desperate [TS]

01:42:26   you know from having a kid before you [TS]

01:42:30   know that things are hard for a while [TS]

01:42:32   and then they end and there's you know [TS]

01:42:34   there's new challenges that arise but [TS]

01:42:36   like whatever you know whatever [TS]

01:42:37   challenge you're in it eventually ends [TS]

01:42:39   and then you know so you get to move on [TS]

01:42:41   and that's just a thing that becomes [TS]

01:42:43   automatic now it's nice so like [TS]

01:42:44   eventually she will sleep and it won't [TS]

01:42:47   be that big of a problem and it's it [TS]

01:42:49   might happen next week or it might take [TS]

01:42:53   two years or more likely somewhere in [TS]

01:42:55   between and it you know you know it's [TS]

01:42:58   coming it's gonna be hard until it gets [TS]

01:43:00   here but you did it once before you can [TS]

01:43:03   do it again [TS]

01:43:04   you are a human you are an adult you can [TS]

01:43:07   do hard things like also you don't have [TS]

01:43:09   a choice yeah this is like I am very [TS]

01:43:16   happy and I'm sure underscore will be - [TS]

01:43:18   to teach you how to use coffee it's [TS]

01:43:20   wonderful faces so many way or at least [TS]

01:43:23   it improves so much of this like there's [TS]

01:43:26   a reason why coffee is so popular this [TS]

01:43:29   is a thing I don't know if you heard [TS]

01:43:30   about it in the world but it really does [TS]

01:43:33   help [TS]

01:43:33   Tiny's Drive kids but it's nice it helps [TS]

01:43:40   [Laughter] [TS]

01:43:45   Syracuse let me down if his beloved [TS]

01:43:47   Accord could be had with a stick with [TS]

01:43:50   anything other than cloth and basically [TS]

01:43:52   no other options I would have won all [TS]

01:43:54   seats are great were you talking about [TS]

01:43:56   people love to get really fancy [TS]

01:43:57   expensive luxury cars with cloth seats [TS]

01:43:59   because there's so much better than [TS]

01:44:00   leather you know what's awesome static [TS]

01:44:02   in the winter when you rub against them [TS]

01:44:03   you get static I live in the winter [TS]

01:44:09   place I don't have static and quasi [TS]

01:44:11   that's fine all right no but that is a [TS]

01:44:14   thing of people wanting cloth seats in [TS]

01:44:15   their luxury sporty cars because they [TS]

01:44:17   grip you better right and also there how [TS]

01:44:19   could rip you better that makes no sense [TS]

01:44:21   leather is not literally sticky but kind [TS]

01:44:23   of sort of sleeve you do kind of slide [TS]

01:44:24   on leather when it's cold but if you [TS]

01:44:26   better in this summer they caught the [TS]

01:44:28   cloth seats no it's funny because I've [TS]

01:44:33   been talking to a couple other friends [TS]

01:44:34   of mine this is the one that had the r32 [TS]

01:44:36   and previously before that the m3 the 96 [TS]

01:44:40   m3 and he's the one that suggested both [TS]

01:44:42   the legacy in the 335 so I really should [TS]

01:44:44   never trust him about any car ever [TS]

01:44:46   and he's also suggested the go far by [TS]

01:44:48   the way but anyway I was talking to him [TS]

01:44:50   and another friend of ours about how you [TS]

01:44:53   know I really want to go far but I [TS]

01:44:55   really want a sunroof like I really [TS]

01:44:57   really really don't like not having a [TS]

01:45:00   sunroof [TS]

01:45:01   and then oh you know you wouldn't even [TS]

01:45:03   mousse it you wouldn't even know and I [TS]

01:45:04   feel like that's sort of kinda the [TS]

01:45:05   conversation we're having now you don't [TS]

01:45:07   even know you you have no cloth seats [TS]

01:45:08   and forever clothes teach a better [TS]

01:45:09   burger well as attorney wouldn't miss [TS]

01:45:12   cloth seats I'm just saying the stack is [TS]

01:45:13   not as big a problem as he thinks it is [TS]

01:45:14   especially now I would take cloth seats [TS]

01:45:17   before I'd lose my son [TS]

01:45:18   that's an interesting question actually [TS]

01:45:20   I think I agree I think I agree like [TS]

01:45:23   leather is just making you like feel [TS]

01:45:24   luxurious and having a nice smell right [TS]

01:45:26   but leather in terms of just what it [TS]

01:45:29   feels like to sit in it is not like the [TS]

01:45:32   Holy Grail is cloth seats with seat [TS]

01:45:33   heaters which almost nobody makes [TS]

01:45:34   because then you're like oh I have if I [TS]

01:45:36   want to get seat heaters I have to get [TS]

01:45:37   leather right ahead of them in my Accord [TS]

01:45:39   my nobody makes that these days because [TS]

01:45:44   basically once you go to seat heaters [TS]

01:45:46   you also get like the leather package [TS]

01:45:47   right because it seems luxurious leather [TS]

01:45:50   you know whether or fake leather yeah I [TS]

01:45:53   don't really I don't draw a lot like a [TS]

01:45:55   line between those two I think like [TS]

01:45:56   there's fake leather is so good these [TS]

01:45:59   days that it doesn't really matter which [TS]

01:46:00   one I have I don't even notice really [TS]

01:46:02   all I know is to go back a half step you [TS]

01:46:05   know my friends were saying oh you you [TS]

01:46:07   don't even know you wouldn't even miss [TS]

01:46:08   the sunroof in the Gulf are you you did [TS]

01:46:11   before I do be fine well as it turns out [TS]

01:46:12   my legacy GT that I had before the 335 [TS]

01:46:15   it was something to the order of $3,000 [TS]

01:46:20   to get basically two options and that [TS]

01:46:23   was leather and a sunroof and I bought [TS]

01:46:25   the legacy because my then car a 300zx [TS]

01:46:28   wouldn't stay on the road sound familiar [TS]

01:46:31   at all and it couldn't stay on the road [TS]

01:46:33   because it was always in the shop and so [TS]

01:46:35   I bought the the Legacy GT after having [TS]

01:46:39   been employed as a real adult for like [TS]

01:46:41   literally a month or two months or [TS]

01:46:43   something like that which is to say I [TS]

01:46:44   was friggin broke and $3,000 would have [TS]

01:46:47   destroyed me financially like truly even [TS]

01:46:49   like over the course of you know the [TS]

01:46:51   four or five or probably even have a six [TS]

01:46:54   year car loan I was so broke at the time [TS]

01:46:55   but whatever it was like that $3,000 yes [TS]

01:46:58   I understand it was only like ten or [TS]

01:46:59   twenty or thirty dollars a month but if [TS]

01:47:00   that would have ruined me truly it [TS]

01:47:02   really would have ruined me so I didn't [TS]

01:47:04   get it and I had that car for like eight [TS]

01:47:05   years I had it from oh four to twenty [TS]

01:47:08   twelve yeah I was eight years and every [TS]

01:47:11   single day in the spring summer and fall [TS]

01:47:14   where it wasn't actively precipitating I [TS]

01:47:17   hated not having a sunroof I hated to [TS]

01:47:21   marco's point not having leather less [TS]

01:47:23   but I hated that too and so I can tell [TS]

01:47:26   both of you not that you're really [TS]

01:47:27   arguing with me but I can tell both of [TS]

01:47:30   you and my two other [TS]

01:47:31   friends with with confidence that yes I [TS]

01:47:34   have lived the non sunroof life and I [TS]

01:47:36   have lived the not leather life and it [TS]

01:47:39   sucks and I don't want to go back but my [TS]

01:47:42   leather I just I don't I don't like [TS]

01:47:44   cloth and that's like such a thing to [TS]

01:47:46   say it just it feels so not nice because [TS]

01:47:52   there's a wide variability in cost these [TS]

01:47:53   cloths disease just basically means not [TS]

01:47:55   whether or not pretending to be those [TS]

01:47:56   very wide variability in whether it's [TS]

01:47:58   fuzzy or like stitched or you know all [TS]

01:48:01   sorts of different textures and and [TS]

01:48:02   patterns and all that other stuff I'm [TS]

01:48:04   wondering what you missed other than the [TS]

01:48:05   that it feels more luxurious because [TS]

01:48:07   we've been trained to think leather is [TS]

01:48:08   fancier I think it was just that I mean [TS]

01:48:11   even the Saturn that I had the infamous [TS]

01:48:13   Saturn where the wheel fell off even [TS]

01:48:15   that head like I'm serious I swear to [TS]

01:48:19   God why I'm surprised you were like the [TS]

01:48:22   only person who has like this is gonna [TS]

01:48:24   let their insider like do you know what [TS]

01:48:25   kind of car you're getting like it's a [TS]

01:48:31   lot of people have been saying in fact [TS]

01:48:33   even in the chat room just moments ago [TS]

01:48:35   Tim underscore underscore was saying the [TS]

01:48:36   same thing a lot of people have been [TS]

01:48:38   saying why are you even considering a [TS]

01:48:41   golf are why not get a GTI you can get a [TS]

01:48:44   GTI with sunroof it is not that much [TS]

01:48:47   slower what is wrong with you why [TS]

01:48:50   wouldn't you do that and my answer has [TS]

01:48:52   always been twofold one I would want the [TS]

01:48:56   best of what I was getting if at all [TS]

01:48:58   possible because that's kind of who have [TS]

01:49:01   to come I'll blame that on Marco but [TS]

01:49:03   it's kind of always been a bit of me any [TS]

01:49:05   yeah come on that's like saying like oh [TS]

01:49:07   I drink and I become mature like no [TS]

01:49:08   you're just a jerk or when you drink [TS]

01:49:11   like it's like this has always been [TS]

01:49:13   inside of you it's true but I don't know [TS]

01:49:19   but I would want why I would want the [TS]

01:49:21   fastest one and I would want the [TS]

01:49:23   quote-unquote best one and that's why I [TS]

01:49:24   think I would prefer the R plus in my [TS]

01:49:26   experience which admittedly admittedly I [TS]

01:49:29   have not driven a front-wheel drive car [TS]

01:49:30   and I don't know 15 years or something [TS]

01:49:32   like that but I in the past have never [TS]

01:49:36   particularly enjoyed driving front-wheel [TS]

01:49:39   drive cars actually that's not true [TS]

01:49:40   Aran's Mazda was front-wheel drive and [TS]

01:49:41   although I didn't drive it regularly I [TS]

01:49:43   definitely [TS]

01:49:45   did not like the feeling when I drove it [TS]

01:49:46   it just felt like the front wheels were [TS]

01:49:48   doing too much I didn't care for it and [TS]

01:49:50   the GTI is front-wheel drive now with [TS]

01:49:52   that said my understanding of the GTI is [TS]

01:49:54   that it actually has like a limited slip [TS]

01:49:55   differential up front which is weird and [TS]

01:49:57   kind of like the Dodge SRT 4 from back [TS]

01:49:59   in the day but anyway all of this is to [TS]

01:50:02   ask the question do you think you guys [TS]

01:50:04   would if you were if I told you you had [TS]

01:50:07   to buy a Golf R or a GTI which I know [TS]

01:50:10   John you're gonna blow this predicament [TS]

01:50:12   out of the water someway somehow but if [TS]

01:50:14   you had to choose between one of those [TS]

01:50:16   two cars do you think you would enter [TS]

01:50:17   Tom entertain the front-wheel-drive GTI [TS]

01:50:20   that has a sunroof or do you think you [TS]

01:50:22   would have to go all-in on the Golf R I [TS]

01:50:23   would keep saying like oh there are is [TS]

01:50:26   the best quote-unquote best but it's [TS]

01:50:27   clear that you really want a sunroof so [TS]

01:50:29   it's not the best for you yeah like the [TS]

01:50:32   amount of time I would imagine you would [TS]

01:50:33   enjoy a sunroof was greater than the [TS]

01:50:35   amount of time you would enjoy it being [TS]

01:50:36   rear-wheel drive or whatever all-wheel [TS]

01:50:38   drive but yes I'm with you in principle [TS]

01:50:39   dad why do you gotta use your logic on [TS]

01:50:41   me because you just you're just cruising [TS]

01:50:43   down the road at 1530 miles an hour [TS]

01:50:44   you're enjoying the sunroof on a sunny [TS]

01:50:46   day and you're only enjoying the [TS]

01:50:48   slightly different driving dynamics when [TS]

01:50:50   you're driving hard which is weightless [TS]

01:50:51   you haven't been in the car with me in a [TS]

01:50:54   long time have you but anyway I [TS]

01:50:55   understand your point you should drive [TS]

01:50:57   more safely look you're talking to [TS]

01:51:00   people who have Volkswagen things and [TS]

01:51:02   they're gonna want to sell you while [TS]

01:51:03   storing things does everybody always [TS]

01:51:04   wants to convince other people to buy [TS]

01:51:06   what they bought so keep in mind though [TS]

01:51:09   that that is their perspective like you [TS]

01:51:11   know I'm telling you first I told you [TS]

01:51:13   you should buy a BMW because I bought [TS]

01:51:14   one now yeah then I'm telling you should [TS]

01:51:17   buy a Tesla because I bought like that [TS]

01:51:18   John's telling you to buy an AK or [TS]

01:51:19   because he bought one you know part of [TS]

01:51:21   this is to value their own purchase as [TS]

01:51:22   part of it is because whatever thought [TS]

01:51:24   process led us to make the choices for [TS]

01:51:25   ourselves it's natural to apply the same [TS]

01:51:28   processes to to you the reality is [TS]

01:51:30   though that when you like you're bending [TS]

01:51:32   over backwards trying to get some GTI [TS]

01:51:35   like vehicle to fit what you actually [TS]

01:51:37   want but it sounds like they just don't [TS]

01:51:39   make one that is what you actually want [TS]

01:51:40   and that's a totally fine answer like [TS]

01:51:43   the answer I think just is they don't [TS]

01:51:44   make what you want so therefore this is [TS]

01:51:47   not the right car family for you and you [TS]

01:51:49   should look at other things that might [TS]

01:51:50   be so in conclusion I need to buy [TS]

01:51:52   Wrangler one of the two choices ut TIRR [TS]

01:51:57   I picked one mark was like [TS]

01:51:59   oh you should get some told it was the [TS]

01:52:00   question I have a specific point of that [TS]

01:52:03   question was seeing if he should value [TS]

01:52:05   all-wheel drive over the sunroof I'm [TS]

01:52:07   with John I think you would probably [TS]

01:52:09   enjoy the sunroof more but I think [TS]

01:52:10   ultimately neat none of these Volkswagen [TS]

01:52:13   small you know hatchback things are [TS]

01:52:16   actually what you want so you shouldn't [TS]

01:52:18   really it like this is kind of a [TS]

01:52:19   pointless exercise because you shouldn't [TS]

01:52:21   really be considering any of them unless [TS]

01:52:22   what you want completely doesn't exist [TS]

01:52:25   by anybody but that's not true there's [TS]

01:52:26   lots of there's lots of cars that well [TS]

01:52:28   not Lots but there are some cars that [TS]

01:52:30   you would enjoy more that are from other [TS]

01:52:32   brands and that maybe you are not you [TS]

01:52:35   know considering because you don't think [TS]

01:52:36   you should like in the case of your SUV [TS]

01:52:38   envy but you know where your friends [TS]

01:52:40   will accept you for whoever you are but [TS]

01:52:42   like you know maybe it's because you [TS]

01:52:44   don't want to pay the price or you're [TS]

01:52:45   mad at BMW like with the m3 or Tesla [TS]

01:52:48   with the price but like these caught [TS]

01:52:51   like the cars you're looking at or not [TS]

01:52:52   for you because every choice you have in [TS]

01:52:55   that lineup has some kind of severe [TS]

01:52:58   downside that you really don't like I [TS]

01:53:00   know there's a kilise it's Achilles [TS]

01:53:02   heels all the way down right so [TS]

01:53:03   therefore none of them are the right car [TS]

01:53:05   for you and that's okay I know I know [TS]

01:53:08   you should be test driving these cars [TS]

01:53:09   though like you always like to talk [TS]

01:53:10   about them in Hemet just go test drive [TS]

01:53:12   them just like is you don't cost me [TS]

01:53:14   anything test drive them in [TS]

01:53:15   coincidentally I might have a little bit [TS]

01:53:17   of time outside the house just by myself [TS]

01:53:19   tomorrow maybe and I've been debating I [TS]

01:53:21   probably won't because I'm gonna want to [TS]

01:53:23   come back and save Aaron but I've been [TS]

01:53:25   debating going to Volkswagen dealer and [TS]

01:53:28   oh that's right that's why I wasn't [TS]

01:53:29   gonna do it because I've looked at their [TS]

01:53:30   inventory and it's garbage but I was [TS]

01:53:32   kicking around the idea of going to the [TS]

01:53:34   Volkswagen dealer and driving a GTI just [TS]

01:53:36   to try it and if there's any part of [TS]

01:53:38   this segment that Marco you leave in the [TS]

01:53:40   show would you please leave the [TS]

01:53:41   following I am aware of the kia stinger [TS]

01:53:44   it looks very nice well not [TS]

01:53:46   aesthetically aesthetically whatever [TS]

01:53:51   exactly aesthetically it's I'm aware of [TS]

01:53:54   this car you keep telling me about it's [TS]

01:53:55   ugly it's not beautiful but I understand [TS]

01:53:59   it ticks a lot of the the checkboxes [TS]

01:54:02   that I'm interested in except everyone [TS]

01:54:04   seems to be forgetting that it's to [TS]

01:54:07   peddle only and if I'm going to go for a [TS]

01:54:09   to pedal car I'm going to go all in [TS]

01:54:12   and do something like Tesla or really [TS]

01:54:15   make my life miserable and get the the [TS]

01:54:17   Julia Quadrifoglio or something along [TS]

01:54:19   those lines I'm not gonna get a Kia and [TS]

01:54:21   get a to pedal Kia it's not happening [TS]

01:54:23   you're giving up so much by going by [TS]

01:54:26   dropping the clutch that you better be [TS]

01:54:28   getting something amazing every day [TS]

01:54:29   exactly no truly like I completely agree [TS]

01:54:32   with you I could not have said it better [TS]

01:54:33   myself [TS]

01:54:34   and that's that's the thing and ladies [TS]

01:54:36   Car and Driver the kiyose thing are tied [TS]

01:54:37   with the BMW 430 I X Drive Grand Sport [TS]

01:54:42   grand coupe it's a giant long name it [TS]

01:54:44   was like fastback it's hard I talked [TS]

01:54:47   about the Kia stinger for a second place [TS]

01:54:49   in a three car race so they were both [TS]

01:54:53   massively behind the winner which was [TS]

01:54:55   the Audi a5 so what is the thing is how [TS]

01:54:58   far BMW is fallen because I used to [TS]

01:55:00   routinely win these matchups by a wide [TS]

01:55:01   margin now it's way behind by not just [TS]

01:55:03   you know a couple they have a point [TS]

01:55:05   system not as a couple points yeah and W [TS]

01:55:09   has lost their way [TS]

01:55:10   yeah like any any comparison to the the [TS]

01:55:13   F 30 and Beyond generation of BMW 3 and [TS]

01:55:16   4 Series has to have the disclaimer that [TS]

01:55:19   like yeah but these are way worse than [TS]

01:55:20   made up you used to be so like yeah kia [TS]

01:55:23   has reached the level of BMW in BMWs [TS]

01:55:25   degraded state or I forget oh man so I [TS]

01:55:30   started going to an exercise thing with [TS]

01:55:31   dip and the trainer used some amazing [TS]

01:55:34   euphemism to describe my physical state [TS]

01:55:38   they're like a key astanga marga [TS]

01:55:40   I think it was oh it was my my D [TS]

01:55:42   conditioned state like a battery even [TS]

01:55:47   deaconess you know yeah it's like which [TS]

01:55:48   is hilarious cuz like it like that [TS]

01:55:50   implies that I was at one time [TS]

01:55:51   conditioned which was never the case did [TS]

01:55:55   you show them your mouse and trackpad [TS]

01:55:56   hands these hands mouse track that all [TS]

01:56:00   day with these I've worked hard for [TS]

01:56:02   these look at how precisely I can double [TS]

01:56:04   click I'm a computer athlete [TS]

01:56:04   click I'm a computer athlete [TS]

00:00:00   but eventually the test-riding becomes [TS]

00:00:02   exactly as much coding as the coding [TS]

00:00:04   does that doesn't sound right [TS]

00:00:06   I know it sounds weird I'm not trying to [TS]

00:00:07   convert you I'm just saying like this is [TS]

00:00:09   the that sounds like it's not math this [TS]

00:00:12   is not the show where we can it's you [TS]

00:00:13   it's not the show where he commits Casey [TS]

00:00:15   to drink coffee when when Marko starts [TS]

00:00:20   writing tests I'll start drinking coffee [TS]

00:00:21   let's make that agreement oh there you [TS]

00:00:23   go now you're gonna make him do it we [TS]

00:00:26   should start with some follow-up and [TS]

00:00:27   Ravis our rights in in a teepee 258 [TS]

00:00:30   Casey said he'd rather have Apple [TS]

00:00:31   throttle the iPhone by slowing it down [TS]

00:00:33   and have it shut down due to poor pirate [TS]

00:00:34   battery performance however I assume [TS]

00:00:37   that's being said by someone owning a [TS]

00:00:38   relatively new iPhone that's true you [TS]

00:00:40   should use an older model to really [TS]

00:00:41   understand the issue I have an iPhone 6 [TS]

00:00:43   and believe me the slowdown is [TS]

00:00:44   unbearable [TS]

00:00:44   one should not be waiting 10 seconds to [TS]

00:00:46   see an app come up or imagine when you [TS]

00:00:48   see something you want to capture in [TS]

00:00:49   photo or film but it takes ages for the [TS]

00:00:51   camera to launch and you've missed your [TS]

00:00:52   shot the list goes on and on this is a [TS]

00:00:53   serious usability issue for people with [TS]

00:00:56   older iPhones and and they suffer from [TS]

00:00:58   it daily during the whole day now this [TS]

00:01:03   is a completely fair point and Ravi is [TS]

00:01:05   right that I haven't really experienced [TS]

00:01:07   this because in well lately because I've [TS]

00:01:10   always been on the latest and greatest [TS]

00:01:11   phone that being said I believe was [TS]

00:01:14   either my fix for my success and we did [TS]

00:01:16   talk about this on the show at some [TS]

00:01:17   point or another I want to say was my 6s [TS]

00:01:19   would occasionally just shut itself down [TS]

00:01:22   and it whether or not it was the same [TS]

00:01:25   problem because it was a relatively new [TS]

00:01:26   phone at the time and I think it was [TS]

00:01:28   during a generation of phones where they [TS]

00:01:30   did have battery problems if I'm not [TS]

00:01:31   mistaken and you know what the specifics [TS]

00:01:33   of why it happened don't really matter [TS]

00:01:36   but the fact the matter is I had a phone [TS]

00:01:38   where this sort of shutdown was [TS]

00:01:40   happening and I remember vividly that [TS]

00:01:44   there were at least two or three times [TS]

00:01:45   that I was trying to capture something [TS]

00:01:48   that Declan was doing with the foot with [TS]

00:01:49   the phone's camera and it decided to [TS]

00:01:53   shut itself down [TS]

00:01:54   what Rabi seems to forget is that [TS]

00:01:57   booting a phone even a brand new iPhone [TS]

00:02:00   10 is like 15 20 30 seconds or something [TS]

00:02:03   like that that is way worse than waiting [TS]

00:02:07   five to ten seconds for the camera to [TS]

00:02:09   come up which is also terrible don't get [TS]

00:02:11   me wrong I am NOT arguing that that is [TS]

00:02:13   GARP [TS]

00:02:13   and I can't imagine how tough it would [TS]

00:02:15   be to have every app open after 10 [TS]

00:02:18   seconds unequivocally that is trash but [TS]

00:02:22   I would still take that trash over [TS]

00:02:26   having the phone completely shut down [TS]

00:02:28   when I'm trying to capture a picture of [TS]

00:02:31   Declan or now Michaela like no question [TS]

00:02:34   I am still convinced that I would rather [TS]

00:02:36   have throttling than not well the slow [TS]

00:02:38   this little app launch could happen [TS]

00:02:40   every single time whereas the shows not [TS]

00:02:41   only happens once in a while but the [TS]

00:02:42   reason I put this thing and follow up is [TS]

00:02:44   not to debate whether shutdowns are [TS]

00:02:46   worse than slow performance but to [TS]

00:02:48   reiterate again what I think I said on a [TS]

00:02:50   past show which is if your phone is [TS]

00:02:52   doing stuff like really really slow like [TS]

00:02:56   this kind of slow like I literally I [TS]

00:02:57   mean I don't know maybe he's [TS]

00:02:58   exaggerating but if it's literally like [TS]

00:02:59   10 seconds to launch an app and you [TS]

00:03:01   noticed a routine regular app like if [TS]

00:03:03   it's doing things massively so that's [TS]

00:03:05   not throttling that is something else [TS]

00:03:07   that is the mysterious ailment that no [TS]

00:03:09   one has been able to identify that is [TS]

00:03:11   sometimes but not always cured by either [TS]

00:03:14   wiping and restoring from map backup or [TS]

00:03:17   wiping and starting as a new phone why [TS]

00:03:19   is that cure it what does it do I have [TS]

00:03:21   no idea but the throttling is not it's [TS]

00:03:25   going to make it feel slower you know [TS]

00:03:27   for sure but it's not going to make it [TS]

00:03:30   do this tight like even if you cut the [TS]

00:03:32   the clock speed in a quarter it wouldn't [TS]

00:03:35   take 10 or 20 seconds to launch an app [TS]

00:03:36   right it's not you know it's it that's [TS]

00:03:39   too much right it would take a quarter [TS]

00:03:41   of the time to launch the app or [TS]

00:03:42   whatever so phones that have these [TS]

00:03:44   massive slowdowns or freezes and stuff I [TS]

00:03:46   don't think those are explicable by the [TS]

00:03:49   throttling the throttling feels [TS]

00:03:50   different the throttling feels like your [TS]

00:03:52   whole phone is kind of going through [TS]

00:03:53   molasses but not these huge things all [TS]

00:03:55   I'm gonna say is that if you're [TS]

00:03:57   encountering one of these problems don't [TS]

00:03:59   merely assume that you're being [TS]

00:04:00   throttled you may have something much [TS]

00:04:01   much worse than throttling and what can [TS]

00:04:04   you do about it the only thing I've [TS]

00:04:05   heard of some you know like I said wipe [TS]

00:04:06   wipe and restore from backup or wipe and [TS]

00:04:08   star as a new phone and that may or may [TS]

00:04:10   not fix it which is terrible advice I [TS]

00:04:11   don't have anything better I just want [TS]

00:04:12   people to be aware that every problem is [TS]

00:04:14   not throttling people people often [TS]

00:04:16   complain about how I bother Apple about [TS]

00:04:20   their software quality and you know well [TS]

00:04:21   it doesn't matter they're very [TS]

00:04:23   successful you know they're moving fast [TS]

00:04:25   they're competitive they don't need to [TS]

00:04:26   make everything perfect [TS]

00:04:27   but part of the reason why this battery [TS]

00:04:30   thing became such a big deal and part of [TS]

00:04:32   the reason why so many people jumped on [TS]

00:04:35   the on you know sometimes even wrong [TS]

00:04:38   information about it but but definitely [TS]

00:04:40   sensationalized the the motivations and [TS]

00:04:42   and what was actually happening is [TS]

00:04:44   because apples had problems for years [TS]

00:04:48   where I OS has weird bugs is not tested [TS]

00:04:53   well enough on old phones weird cruft [TS]

00:04:55   accumulates with with older phones older [TS]

00:04:57   installations like an upgraded sometimes [TS]

00:05:00   you have things like this where you have [TS]

00:05:02   to like restore your phone and that [TS]

00:05:03   might fix it like this is all just [TS]

00:05:06   problems that that arise from having a [TS]

00:05:08   massive amount of technical debt and bad [TS]

00:05:11   software quality that never gets a [TS]

00:05:12   chance to get fixed if Apple had better [TS]

00:05:15   software quality and better testing and [TS]

00:05:18   better supporting these old devices the [TS]

00:05:20   battery gate thing would have been a way [TS]

00:05:22   less severe problem the like one of the [TS]

00:05:26   biggest reasons why it looked the way it [TS]

00:05:27   did is because there are so many quality [TS]

00:05:31   problems with software on old phones and [TS]

00:05:33   people you know Apple basically handed [TS]

00:05:35   them on a platter a very good [TS]

00:05:38   explanation for why their phones are [TS]

00:05:40   this slow that isn't their fault that's [TS]

00:05:41   Apple being evil it probably isn't the [TS]

00:05:43   right explanation as John said like I [TS]

00:05:45   think most if most people's phones are [TS]

00:05:47   this slow it's probably not because the [TS]

00:05:49   CPU speed has been cut down by you know [TS]

00:05:51   50 or 60 percent whatever it is like [TS]

00:05:54   this seems like a more severe software [TS]

00:05:56   issue but the Apple like for years [TS]

00:06:00   they've been ignoring this kind of [TS]

00:06:02   software quality and it bit them really [TS]

00:06:05   hard and there's lots of areas like you [TS]

00:06:07   things like security where like you know [TS]

00:06:09   technical debt can really come back and [TS]

00:06:11   bite you hard maybe they need to really [TS]

00:06:14   reconsider their priorities and and how [TS]

00:06:17   much they value and and devote resources [TS]

00:06:19   to quality of their software and running [TS]

00:06:23   a little device especially as opposed to [TS]

00:06:25   just plowing ahead and giving engineers [TS]

00:06:28   no time to fix bugs alright Andres [TS]

00:06:31   police rights does anyone other than [TS]

00:06:33   tech blocker bloggers give a darn about [TS]

00:06:35   smart speakers isn't there a gigantic [TS]

00:06:37   market of dumb Bluetooth speakers it [TS]

00:06:39   seems that way Oliver you're upright [TS]

00:06:40   electronics [TS]

00:06:41   I seem to be taken over by on an [TS]

00:06:42   unreasonably huge selection of these [TS]

00:06:44   devices blah blah blah I'll get a home [TS]

00:06:47   pod as soon as I can [TS]

00:06:48   I doubt I'll ever say a single word to [TS]

00:06:50   it can't blah blah blah blah middle part [TS]

00:06:52   you're skipping over the important parts [TS]

00:06:53   I didn't put the whole for the love of [TS]

00:06:56   all that's good and holy okay from the [TS]

00:06:57   from the middle part don't normal people [TS]

00:06:59   just want a fantastic sounding speaker [TS]

00:07:01   even if it's not the cutting edge of [TS]

00:07:02   solving their lazy old white men [TS]

00:07:04   problems of switching off the mood [TS]

00:07:06   lights are turning on their smart [TS]

00:07:07   kettles I know I want a great speaker [TS]

00:07:08   that connect seamlessly to my Apple [TS]

00:07:10   devices so I'll get a home pod as soon [TS]

00:07:11   as I can buy dad will ever say a single [TS]

00:07:12   word to it the reason I put this in here [TS]

00:07:15   is like so if I had to summarize this [TS]

00:07:17   nasai less snarky way it's like [TS]

00:07:18   Bluetooth speakers we all have a [TS]

00:07:21   Bluetooth speaker I bet a lot of people [TS]

00:07:22   do [TS]

00:07:22   they're everywhere it's kind of it [TS]

00:07:24   becomes sort of the baseline for so you [TS]

00:07:27   want a little speaker that's better than [TS]

00:07:28   your your phone speakers that you can [TS]

00:07:30   play stuff from your phone or whatever [TS]

00:07:32   right and he's right there's lots of [TS]

00:07:35   Bluetooth speakers around so why do you [TS]

00:07:37   even need all like what's the deal with [TS]

00:07:39   the home pod if it was just a Bluetooth [TS]

00:07:40   speaker wouldn't that be fine who cares [TS]

00:07:42   about things you can talk to except for [TS]

00:07:43   as he you know puts it like turning on [TS]

00:07:45   your mood lighting her your smart tea [TS]

00:07:47   kettles or whatever and he even says [TS]

00:07:51   I'll get one because he wants something [TS]

00:07:53   connected Apple devices by dental or [TS]

00:07:54   assessing a wardrobe i think this falls [TS]

00:07:56   into the same category albeit less i'll [TS]

00:07:58   be much more angry as casey wear and i [TS]

00:08:01   think we've talked about these before [TS]

00:08:02   and I want to reiterate to it if it [TS]

00:08:03   seems silly that you're talking to your [TS]

00:08:06   speaker no speaker who cares about the [TS]

00:08:08   talking about that seems silly people [TS]

00:08:10   who say that probably have not tried one [TS]

00:08:12   of these things and I know if you [TS]

00:08:14   haven't done it it sounds like a froofy [TS]

00:08:16   thing but as a technology required to [TS]

00:08:19   make something that works like this goes [TS]

00:08:20   down and I argue it's pretty low already [TS]

00:08:22   considering you get a little Amazon dot [TS]

00:08:23   that does a pretty good job of [TS]

00:08:24   understanding what you're saying the [TS]

00:08:26   utility of it will be apparent these [TS]

00:08:27   things are not popular for no reason so [TS]

00:08:30   I would once again urge everybody if [TS]

00:08:32   you've never had a thing like this that [TS]

00:08:34   you talked to don't immediately dismiss [TS]

00:08:37   the idea of talking to it as something [TS]

00:08:38   that like is a passing fad or a thing [TS]

00:08:42   that only you rich lazy people do or [TS]

00:08:45   whatever it is a technology that has [TS]

00:08:47   utility talking to things is a useful [TS]

00:08:51   interface in many situations and that's [TS]

00:08:54   why I think [TS]

00:08:55   as time marches on Bluetooth speakers [TS]

00:08:57   that you can't talk to will become less [TS]

00:09:00   popular in the same way that like [TS]

00:09:01   smartphones that were not iPhones became [TS]

00:09:04   less popular because you could do some [TS]

00:09:06   the same stuff but once you've spoken to [TS]

00:09:08   something to tell you to play music [TS]

00:09:10   having to go to your device and flick [TS]

00:09:12   around in an interface and send the [TS]

00:09:15   audio to the Bluetooth thing just seems [TS]

00:09:17   it doesn't just seem slower it is slower [TS]

00:09:19   it is less convene it's a different way [TS]

00:09:20   of interacting with things so I would [TS]

00:09:22   once again sigh do not do not just miss [TS]

00:09:24   talking to cylinders there they're good [TS]

00:09:25   to talk to you know I I understand why [TS]

00:09:28   you brought me up earlier I I have mixed [TS]

00:09:32   feelings about this but I think even [TS]

00:09:35   despite having never had an echo or any [TS]

00:09:37   I stumbled because I have couldn't [TS]

00:09:39   remember if that was gonna trigger them [TS]

00:09:40   or not despite having never had an echo [TS]

00:09:42   in my house I I think to some degree I [TS]

00:09:46   understand the draw it's not something I [TS]

00:09:48   feel like I need but I do think I [TS]

00:09:50   understand it the reason I'm so grumpy [TS]

00:09:53   about the home pod is because I want to [TS]

00:09:55   be able to shout at my home pod hey you [TS]

00:09:58   know cylinder play such-and-such by such [TS]

00:10:01   and such artists and in the fact that I [TS]

00:10:04   can't do that unless I have either that [TS]

00:10:06   in my library or an Apple music [TS]

00:10:08   subscription is what bums me out because [TS]

00:10:10   as I talked about for a very long time [TS]

00:10:11   previously I would like to use Spotify [TS]

00:10:14   to do that and yes I am aware that you [TS]

00:10:16   can do basic controls like you know hey [TS]

00:10:19   cylinder skip to the next track and it [TS]

00:10:21   will work even if your air playing [TS]

00:10:22   Spotify like I get that but the whole [TS]

00:10:24   point is I want to be able to say hey [TS]

00:10:26   cylinder play placed on hold by me math [TS]

00:10:28   and I want it to just work without [TS]

00:10:30   having to pay Apple for an Apple music [TS]

00:10:32   subscription this was a more general [TS]

00:10:37   this person is more general anger is [TS]

00:10:39   like don't normal people what you want [TS]

00:10:41   just wanted a speaker even if it's not [TS]

00:10:43   on the cutting edge of solving your late [TS]

00:10:45   like it's not your lazy old men problems [TS]

00:10:47   right and mood lighting and stuff like [TS]

00:10:49   that it's not that you're lazy it's like [TS]

00:10:50   saying don't know when people just want [TS]

00:10:52   to command line so the solving your lazy [TS]

00:10:54   problems of oh no you're just pointed [TS]

00:10:56   the thing on the screen with the mouse [TS]

00:10:57   and click on it like it's just this sort [TS]

00:10:59   of backwards macho thinking that you [TS]

00:11:04   don't need any fancy thing to do that it [TS]

00:11:06   should be fine to do it the way [TS]

00:11:07   currently works [TS]

00:11:08   we just want a Bluetooth speaker that [TS]

00:11:09   sounds good you don't need to talk to [TS]

00:11:11   things it's like no like people have [TS]

00:11:12   tried it and it's it's convenient to [TS]

00:11:14   talk to things sometimes not all the [TS]

00:11:16   time it's not the best thing in the [TS]

00:11:17   world but it is an interface that has [TS]

00:11:19   proven its utility and just because you [TS]

00:11:21   you don't find utility in it or you have [TS]

00:11:23   never tried so you have no idea what it [TS]

00:11:24   would be like doesn't mean it doesn't [TS]

00:11:25   have utility and doesn't mean everyone [TS]

00:11:27   who's talking to their cylinders or [TS]

00:11:28   their phones or their watches or talking [TS]

00:11:31   to their cars to tell them to call so [TS]

00:11:32   then I think their hands off the wheel [TS]

00:11:33   too you know call home while they're [TS]

00:11:35   driving [TS]

00:11:36   those are good user interfaces they do [TS]

00:11:38   not reflect badly on the people who use [TS]

00:11:40   them and people who think that way [TS]

00:11:41   should reconsider some brief feedback [TS]

00:11:45   brief follow-up on my Raspberry Pi music [TS]

00:11:47   player that I discussed last week lots [TS]

00:11:50   of people wrote in to suggest that I try [TS]

00:11:53   something that uses that reads RFID or [TS]

00:11:56   NFC tags and there's a been a number of [TS]

00:11:59   projects that do this one of the best [TS]

00:12:01   ones I've seen is called plastic player [TS]

00:12:03   and and there's a few of the projects [TS]

00:12:04   that were similar where basically you [TS]

00:12:06   have a Raspberry Pi with an NFC reading [TS]

00:12:08   board and you stick NFC stickers to the [TS]

00:12:11   back of some kind of like card or [TS]

00:12:13   something there was also a really [TS]

00:12:15   awesome original NES like it like kind [TS]

00:12:18   of like an NES mini project that [TS]

00:12:20   somebody made that used RFID reading [TS]

00:12:23   cartridges like he would he made like [TS]

00:12:25   little mini versions of old NES [TS]

00:12:27   cartridges in throw them into an old [TS]

00:12:29   mini NES had like the power and reset [TS]

00:12:31   buttons all wired up to actually do [TS]

00:12:32   correct things and it was but in the in [TS]

00:12:35   reality it wasn't playing the games off [TS]

00:12:36   of the cartridges it was playing them [TS]

00:12:38   off of internal memory and the [TS]

00:12:39   cartridges were simply telling it what [TS]

00:12:41   to play and that's how all these RFID [TS]

00:12:43   based music players work - some of them [TS]

00:12:46   play them off a Spotify or something [TS]

00:12:47   some of them play them off of internal [TS]

00:12:49   storage so I started playing with this I [TS]

00:12:51   actually I got a NFC board I was a [TS]

00:12:55   little hesitant at first because they [TS]

00:12:56   were there there don't seem to be any [TS]

00:12:57   kind of like quick little plug-and-play [TS]

00:12:59   boards like the like the sound cards you [TS]

00:13:02   can get some that fit the Raspberry Pi [TS]

00:13:04   hat specification which is like it's [TS]

00:13:07   just like a board that like sticks on [TS]

00:13:09   top of the Raspberry Pi it like with [TS]

00:13:11   like a predefined connector on the on [TS]

00:13:14   the main i/o connector and you just kind [TS]

00:13:16   of stick it on and it stacks on top [TS]

00:13:17   nicely and it's like plug and play and [TS]

00:13:19   it just works pretty easily [TS]

00:13:20   there's none of those 4r [TS]

00:13:22   NFC reading that I could find at least [TS]

00:13:24   none that were maintained so I had to [TS]

00:13:26   get like a different board that required [TS]

00:13:29   me to actually acquire it and then later [TS]

00:13:31   on I soldered some stuff and it was kind [TS]

00:13:34   of fun but and I'm terrible at soldering [TS]

00:13:36   this is the first time I've done it in [TS]

00:13:37   years and still terrible at it but [TS]

00:13:38   slowly getting less terrible anyway so [TS]

00:13:41   now I have one that plays via NFC it's [TS]

00:13:45   just using internal storage and the NFC [TS]

00:13:47   cards that I'm sticking like on the [TS]

00:13:49   reader just play the album and it's [TS]

00:13:51   really nice it's still a little bit in [TS]

00:13:53   progress but I'm really enjoying it so [TS]

00:13:55   far I'm kind of I'm really enjoying this [TS]

00:13:56   crazy little world of making fun crap as [TS]

00:13:58   as you know procrastination when I'm [TS]

00:14:01   waiting for overcast to get through test [TS]

00:14:03   flight beta review or something like [TS]

00:14:04   that it's it's nice and yeah I'm really [TS]

00:14:09   enjoying this world that's about all I [TS]

00:14:10   don't have anything to show for it yet [TS]

00:14:11   but it's coming along well it's getting [TS]

00:14:13   pretty cool and so once it's done I'll [TS]

00:14:15   like take pictures and make a blog post [TS]

00:14:17   maybe I don't know you sure you should [TS]

00:14:18   get TIFF to help you design the case for [TS]

00:14:20   it you can do you know she can make a [TS]

00:14:22   nice case or do something like painting [TS]

00:14:24   on the outside you got to involve her in [TS]

00:14:25   this project show she'll allow you to [TS]

00:14:27   put this thing in a prominent place in [TS]

00:14:28   the home hi so I actually already have [TS]

00:14:30   version one of it in a case in a [TS]

00:14:34   prominent place in the home that she has [TS]

00:14:36   approved I'm I'm not going to spoil what [TS]

00:14:40   the case is yet I will tell you that it [TS]

00:14:43   was manufactured by Apple oh my anyway [TS]

00:14:46   once it's done I'll take pictures I'm [TS]

00:14:48   gonna I actually ordered a Raspberry Pi [TS]

00:14:50   0 W which is much smaller than the [TS]

00:14:54   full-size Raspberry Pi to help it fit [TS]

00:14:55   better into this case but we will see [TS]

00:14:57   how that goes when it arrives you should [TS]

00:14:59   have saved your trashcan so you could [TS]

00:15:01   chuck these little NFC cards into the [TS]

00:15:03   trashcan [TS]

00:15:03   chuck them into the hole and then they [TS]

00:15:05   rattle down to the bottom and it plays [TS]

00:15:06   the the song eventually you have to turn [TS]

00:15:09   the thing upside down and empty em all [TS]

00:15:10   out do the trash we respond to this week [TS]

00:15:15   by hello fresh for $30 off your first [TS]

00:15:17   week visit hellofresh comm and enter [TS]

00:15:19   code 80 P 30 at checkout hello and fresh [TS]

00:15:22   is a meal kit delivery service that [TS]

00:15:24   shops plans and delivers your favorite [TS]

00:15:26   step-by-step recipes and pre measured [TS]

00:15:28   ingredients so you can just cook eat and [TS]

00:15:30   enjoy it's super easy to manage you can [TS]

00:15:32   choose your delivery day for when it [TS]

00:15:34   works best for your schedule you [TS]

00:15:36   can pause your account for weeks at a [TS]

00:15:38   time if you're gonna be out of town or [TS]

00:15:39   anything like that all the ingredients [TS]

00:15:41   come super simple and pre-measured handy [TS]

00:15:43   labelled meal kits you know which [TS]

00:15:45   ingredients caliz recipe and they only [TS]

00:15:48   give you as much as you need so you're [TS]

00:15:49   not wasting tons of food all this is [TS]

00:15:51   delivered right to your door in [TS]

00:15:52   recyclable insulated packaging they have [TS]

00:15:55   three plans to choose from the classic [TS]

00:15:56   veggie and family classic is a variety [TS]

00:15:58   of meat fish and seasonal produce veggie [TS]

00:16:01   is vegetarian recipe - plant-based [TS]

00:16:02   proteins grains and seasonal produce [TS]

00:16:04   actually like plans like this because it [TS]

00:16:06   lets me like normally I'm a meat-eater [TS]

00:16:08   but I like say eating less meat over [TS]

00:16:10   time and so the things like this are a [TS]

00:16:12   wonderful way with their veggie plan at [TS]

00:16:14   hellofresh to eat less meat if you want [TS]

00:16:16   to do that or if you want to try it try [TS]

00:16:18   that out and of course if you are [TS]

00:16:19   vegetarian this is very very helpful [TS]

00:16:20   it's also a family plan with quick and [TS]

00:16:23   easy meals with all of the wonderful [TS]

00:16:24   flavor the whole family will love hello [TS]

00:16:27   fresh makes it so easy to have delicious [TS]

00:16:29   balanced dinners for your family or [TS]

00:16:31   yours for yourself for less than $10 a [TS]

00:16:33   meal [TS]

00:16:34   no more time-consuming meal plan your [TS]

00:16:36   grocery shopping and the best thing [TS]

00:16:38   about this is you don't have to like [TS]

00:16:39   plan every single meal what to eat it's [TS]

00:16:41   super simple easy to do easy to cook so [TS]

00:16:44   for 30 dollars off your first week of [TS]

00:16:46   hellofresh visit hellofresh com and [TS]

00:16:48   enter code ATP 30 at checkout [TS]

00:16:51   that's hellofresh comm code ATP 30 a [TS]

00:16:53   check out for $30 off your first week of [TS]

00:16:56   hellofresh thank you so much - hello [TS]

00:16:58   fresh for sponsoring our show apparently [TS]

00:17:03   in the last week or so there have been [TS]

00:17:05   some rejections of iPhone apps or iOS [TS]

00:17:08   apps I guess I should say that use emoji [TS]

00:17:11   as part of the user interface the [TS]

00:17:14   rejections have said something along the [TS]

00:17:16   lines of listen that's you know Apple [TS]

00:17:18   copyrighted material which really is [TS]

00:17:20   true you can't use that in a campion [TS]

00:17:23   screenshots you really got to change [TS]

00:17:24   your app let me start by saying that I [TS]

00:17:27   am quite confident by the letter of the [TS]

00:17:29   law Apple is 100% right and they are [TS]

00:17:32   there's nothing we can really do about [TS]

00:17:34   it but it seems short sighted and stupid [TS]

00:17:38   that apple provides all these beautiful [TS]

00:17:41   emoji and as most of you probably know I [TS]

00:17:44   do love me some emoji that apple [TS]

00:17:47   provides all these beautiful emoji and [TS]

00:17:49   then if you use them as part of you user [TS]

00:17:51   interface they stomp on you and say no [TS]

00:17:53   that's not allowed [TS]

00:17:54   now shortly before we went to record [TS]

00:17:57   tonight I had seen some rumblings about [TS]

00:17:59   this maybe being walked back so instead [TS]

00:18:01   of spending the entire rest of this [TS]

00:18:02   episode on it I guess we just kind of [TS]

00:18:05   talked about it and then move along and [TS]

00:18:06   hope that it's getting resolved but man [TS]

00:18:09   that just seems dumb like I understand [TS]

00:18:11   that yes it is their right to do this [TS]

00:18:14   but it's just dumb I I don't get it [TS]

00:18:18   and it's I like using emoji like I can't [TS]

00:18:21   say that I've done this day at work but [TS]

00:18:23   if I was writing my own iOS app I would [TS]

00:18:25   absolutely use emoji in my in my user [TS]

00:18:28   interface from time to time because I [TS]

00:18:29   just think it's cute and fun but gosh I [TS]

00:18:32   don't dig it and I haven't had the [TS]

00:18:34   chance to listen to the most recent [TS]

00:18:37   connected which will link in the show [TS]

00:18:38   notes where Jeremy Burch FMOD mojo pedia [TS]

00:18:41   is on and I guess that interview is [TS]

00:18:43   probably pretty good because Jeremy's [TS]

00:18:44   pretty damn awesome it is you're missing [TS]

00:18:46   a lot you really really should have [TS]

00:18:47   listened to it it's it's really your [TS]

00:18:49   loss [TS]

00:18:49   I know I will listen to what six hours [TS]

00:18:54   ago already been a little busy but no [TS]

00:18:59   the the connected guys of course are [TS]

00:19:00   dear friends of ours and and Jeremy even [TS]

00:19:03   though we've never met he's a dear [TS]

00:19:05   friend of mine he just doesn't know it [TS]

00:19:06   and so I'll talk with him does that [TS]

00:19:08   count [TS]

00:19:08   that is superhot and in any case the [TS]

00:19:13   point of join it was a giant hot pool it [TS]

00:19:15   wasn't a hot tub [TS]

00:19:16   well in that case not so hot no anyway [TS]

00:19:19   you should listen to that and just [TS]

00:19:21   certainly one of you guys I guess Marco [TS]

00:19:23   if you'd like to jump in kind of fill in [TS]

00:19:24   the gaps here but I just I don't care [TS]

00:19:26   for it I understand swith in Apple's [TS]

00:19:28   right but I don't care for it and I [TS]

00:19:30   think it's a it's just a poor decision [TS]

00:19:32   so Marco since you seem to be more read [TS]

00:19:34   up on this than I anything you can add [TS]

00:19:36   or fill in or kind of clarify for me I [TS]

00:19:38   mean once again the the the specific day [TS]

00:19:42   that we are recording is kind of [TS]

00:19:43   inconvenient for the story because it [TS]

00:19:44   does seem to be like kind of in progress [TS]

00:19:46   and still in motion so this may be out [TS]

00:19:49   of date by the time that I'm able to you [TS]

00:19:51   know release this tomorrow morning or [TS]

00:19:52   whatever but I think Apple clearly needs [TS]

00:19:57   to the final line of what is okay and [TS]

00:20:00   what is not because certain things with [TS]

00:20:02   their emoji are [TS]

00:20:03   you know the emoji is Apple's [TS]

00:20:06   copyrighted work not that different from [TS]

00:20:08   you know it's the San Francisco font is [TS]

00:20:10   Apple's font they own it they can [TS]

00:20:12   dictate the terms of use one of the [TS]

00:20:14   things that you can't do with the San [TS]

00:20:15   Francisco font is you can't embed the [TS]

00:20:17   San Francisco font on an Android app or [TS]

00:20:20   on a website you can you can like call [TS]

00:20:23   for it in your CSS but like you can't [TS]

00:20:25   actually embed the files that would then [TS]

00:20:27   show the San Francisco font to people on [TS]

00:20:29   windows or people on Android because [TS]

00:20:31   that's ripping off their copyrighted [TS]

00:20:33   stuff and put it on your server and [TS]

00:20:34   redistributing it like that's that's [TS]

00:20:36   obviously over the line so similar [TS]

00:20:37   things with emoji there are apps [TS]

00:20:39   sometimes really big apps like I think [TS]

00:20:40   like I'm not too familiar with the [TS]

00:20:42   specifics but I think people were saying [TS]

00:20:43   like whatsapp just copied all that emoji [TS]

00:20:46   was putting it on all their platforms [TS]

00:20:48   like on Android and stuff obviously [TS]

00:20:49   taking apples emoji images and embedding [TS]

00:20:52   them in your app on Android is obviously [TS]

00:20:54   over the line and that should be you [TS]

00:20:56   know enforced by Apple's Copyright [TS]

00:20:57   Department that makes total sense so [TS]

00:20:59   obviously there is a line of what is too [TS]

00:21:01   far the question is where is that line [TS]

00:21:04   being drawn and it seems like that might [TS]

00:21:06   still be in flux or the or maybe there [TS]

00:21:09   was some interpretation by a preview [TS]

00:21:11   that is still in flux I don't know [TS]

00:21:13   obviously I think anything that involves [TS]

00:21:16   you taking the images off the system and [TS]

00:21:20   and manipulating the images themselves [TS]

00:21:22   is probably not right and not cool with [TS]

00:21:25   Apple but I don't think it's right for [TS]

00:21:28   Apple to say that like a text label in [TS]

00:21:31   your app can't include characters in [TS]

00:21:34   this range being rendered by the system [TS]

00:21:36   fonts that I think is is too restrictive [TS]

00:21:39   and you know so for me from a technical [TS]

00:21:42   perspective I think it's easy to define [TS]

00:21:44   that line you're allowed to use emoji in [TS]

00:21:47   your app if it's being rendered as text [TS]

00:21:50   like by the text system being rendered [TS]

00:21:53   as text that makes total sense that [TS]

00:21:55   seems reasonable [TS]

00:21:56   because then Apple can change the images [TS]

00:21:58   whenever they want it can only ever [TS]

00:22:00   render that way on Apple's platforms [TS]

00:22:01   because you're not embedding the images [TS]

00:22:03   you're just calling for the text [TS]

00:22:04   characters so if you if you do the same [TS]

00:22:05   thing on Android or somewhere else it's [TS]

00:22:07   gonna render the Android mojo set which [TS]

00:22:08   is what you should be doing that I think [TS]

00:22:11   is a very good line to draw it's unclear [TS]

00:22:13   whether they are drawing that line or [TS]

00:22:15   not one of the [TS]

00:22:16   that kind of kicked all this off is an [TS]

00:22:18   app by Sam Eckert called bit tracker so [TS]

00:22:22   bit tracker has basically emoji all over [TS]

00:22:24   the UI like in in text labels there's [TS]

00:22:26   like little emoji Thanos how salient [TS]

00:22:27   everything but that looks okay to me and [TS]

00:22:30   so he this is mostly coming out like on [TS]

00:22:32   his Twitter account over the last few [TS]

00:22:34   days and originally he got rejected then [TS]

00:22:36   he got a phone call from a preview and [TS]

00:22:38   in the phone call it's like a perv you [TS]

00:22:40   apparently told him that you cannot use [TS]

00:22:43   emoji anywhere in your app UI except [TS]

00:22:46   like the user being able to enter text [TS]

00:22:49   so like if there's a text field and the [TS]

00:22:51   user can type emoji into the text field [TS]

00:22:52   that's okay and if you're doing things [TS]

00:22:54   with that text like displaying a message [TS]

00:22:56   that someone else sent that person that [TS]

00:22:57   happens to include emoji that's okay but [TS]

00:23:00   what he was told on the phone is [TS]

00:23:01   apparently that you cannot use emoji in [TS]

00:23:04   the UI in other ways but then app review [TS]

00:23:08   decided to retroactively Lee go back and [TS]

00:23:10   approve his app after all and to let him [TS]

00:23:13   use the emoji that way but we haven't [TS]

00:23:15   yet received clarification on the policy [TS]

00:23:17   so whether the policy is actually [TS]

00:23:18   different we have no idea [TS]

00:23:20   and this is a little bit you know I have [TS]

00:23:23   a little bit of skin in this game [TS]

00:23:24   because overcast has a couple of small [TS]

00:23:26   uses of emoji in the interface if you if [TS]

00:23:29   you star an episode a little emoji star [TS]

00:23:31   will show up if you have not downloaded [TS]

00:23:33   it but it's simply being streamed a [TS]

00:23:34   little cloud will show up both these [TS]

00:23:35   things appear in the detail label like [TS]

00:23:36   relate the date shows on the episode and [TS]

00:23:39   and oh and I use the emoji heart it like [TS]

00:23:43   you know also in tiny little form in the [TS]

00:23:45   text label for becoming a premium [TS]

00:23:47   subscriber so obviously I have some skin [TS]

00:23:49   in this game because if this policy is [TS]

00:23:51   super restrictive in the way that that [TS]

00:23:54   he was told on the phone that you can't [TS]

00:23:56   use emoji at all unless the user is [TS]

00:23:57   typing it in then everything I just said [TS]

00:24:00   about overcast would be prohibited and [TS]

00:24:03   that would be unfortunate but the the [TS]

00:24:06   unfortunate reality is that we don't [TS]

00:24:07   know is this is one of those vague [TS]

00:24:09   AppStore times where either somebody [TS]

00:24:11   made a big mistake by telling symetric [TS]

00:24:13   this policy over the phone which i think [TS]

00:24:14   is unlikely or the policy is shifting [TS]

00:24:17   which is probably the more likely answer [TS]

00:24:19   that that they that they're considering [TS]

00:24:20   feedback and maybe that maybe the [TS]

00:24:22   considering they went too far so again [TS]

00:24:24   some policing of their emoji is [TS]

00:24:26   necessary there's a very clear line [TS]

00:24:28   where like if you're pulling the images [TS]

00:24:30   and putting them on other platforms or [TS]

00:24:32   playing with them as images that's [TS]

00:24:34   probably not cool but if you are just [TS]

00:24:37   calling for emoji as characters in text [TS]

00:24:40   labels in your app being rendered by the [TS]

00:24:43   text system in the system I don't think [TS]

00:24:45   that should be prohibited [TS]

00:24:46   they case you know what you said up [TS]

00:24:49   front like they can legally that's [TS]

00:24:50   totally within their rights to prohibit [TS]

00:24:52   that I just I don't think they should [TS]

00:24:54   the language of emoji has become such a [TS]

00:24:59   such a critical part of what's currently [TS]

00:25:02   in fashion and app design and and how [TS]

00:25:05   people are communicating and what people [TS]

00:25:07   expect to see and what they expect to be [TS]

00:25:09   able to use that I think restricting it [TS]

00:25:13   from being used in in the kind of [TS]

00:25:15   innocent way I was saying earlier of [TS]

00:25:16   like being used like in text labels [TS]

00:25:17   restricting that I think would be a big [TS]

00:25:19   mistake for just kind of the the like [TS]

00:25:22   design landscape of iOS apps and I don't [TS]

00:25:26   think I pause to worry about like [TS]

00:25:27   dilution of their brand or losing [TS]

00:25:30   control of their copyright with these [TS]

00:25:31   images as long as it's being rendered by [TS]

00:25:33   the text system on their device and not [TS]

00:25:35   in other places that actually in my [TS]

00:25:38   opinion reinforces their brand because [TS]

00:25:40   then all these apps that have these [TS]

00:25:42   unique looks that include apples emoji [TS]

00:25:45   in their text fields can't look the same [TS]

00:25:47   way on other platforms and that actually [TS]

00:25:50   I think reinforces the like design walls [TS]

00:25:52   are on Apple make sure that look if you [TS]

00:25:54   want your app to look like this cool to [TS]

00:25:55   have this kind of cool mood it has to be [TS]

00:25:57   on iOS it can't be anywhere else like [TS]

00:25:59   III think any any effort to restrict [TS]

00:26:02   apps from using emoji in the UI in this [TS]

00:26:05   kind of you know relatively innocent way [TS]

00:26:07   with the text system I think is not a [TS]

00:26:10   good decision and and is likely to do [TS]

00:26:12   more harm than good [TS]

00:26:13   not you know not to mention it's gonna [TS]

00:26:15   really annoy and anger a lot of [TS]

00:26:17   developers so the last point you brought [TS]

00:26:19   up about emoji being a differentiating [TS]

00:26:22   factor for Apple's platform is I think [TS]

00:26:24   starting to get that the angle that I'm [TS]

00:26:27   taking on this as a Jeremy pointed out [TS]

00:26:30   in emoji PD Oracle Google has an emoji [TS]

00:26:32   font too but there is has different [TS]

00:26:34   licensing terms he describes as an [TS]

00:26:37   open-source license that allows other [TS]

00:26:39   projects use it within the term set out [TS]

00:26:40   blah blah blah but like but it's a [TS]

00:26:42   different license alright so it's still [TS]

00:26:43   Google so own [TS]

00:26:44   it but it's easier to use elsewhere so [TS]

00:26:46   Jason Snell had a heart of gold [TS]

00:26:47   recently on six colors talking about [TS]

00:26:49   slack used to let you pick which emoji [TS]

00:26:52   you want do you want to see apples emoji [TS]

00:26:53   do you want to see Google's emoji what [TS]

00:26:54   are the other choices there was a bunch [TS]

00:26:56   all their Twitter hostile emoji emoji [TS]

00:26:58   once not like it had a bunch of emojis [TS]

00:26:59   clearly like embedded in the app somehow [TS]

00:27:01   because I think it was like this on all [TS]

00:27:02   platforms right even if you were on [TS]

00:27:05   Windows or whatever you can get the [TS]

00:27:06   Apple emoji and then obviously applets [TS]

00:27:08   no no and because they were using you [TS]

00:27:10   know using platforms so Apple must have [TS]

00:27:13   gone to them because now you don't have [TS]

00:27:15   that option anymore you get that you can [TS]

00:27:16   get the Apple ology and Apple platforms [TS]

00:27:17   but not on Windows or whatever and but [TS]

00:27:19   if you're on Windows you can get the [TS]

00:27:20   Google emoji because Google's license is [TS]

00:27:22   more permissive when it comes to what [TS]

00:27:25   Apple should or shouldn't do with its [TS]

00:27:27   emoji rights yes there is the angle [TS]

00:27:29   that's saying look if you're on Apple [TS]

00:27:31   platforms you get our nice emoji we [TS]

00:27:32   think our mode you're good they make our [TS]

00:27:35   platform nicer to use because we think [TS]

00:27:38   they're better than other people's emoji [TS]

00:27:39   and people can use them in their [TS]

00:27:40   interface like marker or whatever and [TS]

00:27:42   that's a differentiating factor the [TS]

00:27:43   other angle is if Apple decided to have [TS]

00:27:46   a much more permissive license for its [TS]

00:27:48   emoji what could happen and what I think [TS]

00:27:52   is already kind of sort of happening [TS]

00:27:53   without apples permission is they could [TS]

00:27:56   attain visual dominance but like they [TS]

00:28:01   could become the face of emoji to the [TS]

00:28:03   world like the the what they decide the [TS]

00:28:06   representation of each one of these [TS]

00:28:07   fairly vaguely specified emoji symbols [TS]

00:28:10   is what they artwork they choose and [TS]

00:28:12   their art style and their all their [TS]

00:28:14   artistic choices could come to define [TS]

00:28:17   emoji across the entire industry [TS]

00:28:18   including when they decide to change an [TS]

00:28:21   emoji or make a new emoji or whatever [TS]

00:28:22   like that they could become the de-facto [TS]

00:28:24   leaders of emoji merely by having the [TS]

00:28:27   most widely-used set uh and you know [TS]

00:28:31   Google's is very widely used as well I [TS]

00:28:33   don't think Google is winning that [TS]

00:28:35   battle judged based on like how often [TS]

00:28:39   apples emoji are copied without [TS]

00:28:41   permission rather than using Google's [TS]

00:28:42   with permission it's like given the [TS]

00:28:44   choice between Google lets me use it in [TS]

00:28:46   my app or platform so I'm an Apple [TS]

00:28:48   doesn't but I kind of like the Apple [TS]

00:28:49   ones better right so that position being [TS]

00:28:52   the sort of visual leader of emoji for [TS]

00:28:54   the entire world also has value [TS]

00:28:57   I'm not sure the value of saying if you [TS]

00:28:59   want apples nice emoji come for the owl [TS]

00:29:01   platform is worth the sacrifice because [TS]

00:29:03   this happens all the time for me like [TS]

00:29:05   when you're communicating with emoji if [TS]

00:29:07   you're just communicating with all your [TS]

00:29:09   Apple using friends you're all in the [TS]

00:29:11   same page about what the emoji looks [TS]

00:29:12   like right but if you're communicating [TS]

00:29:14   across platforms it's harder to know [TS]

00:29:17   what their if they're seeing the little [TS]

00:29:19   face with the teary eyes or the whatever [TS]

00:29:21   like or the the thing that looks like a [TS]

00:29:23   grimace that's supposed to be a grin [TS]

00:29:24   like there can be miscommunication [TS]

00:29:26   because of differences in art style and [TS]

00:29:30   people on Apple platforms experience [TS]

00:29:32   that me as an Apple user I wish that [TS]

00:29:36   Apple would widely license its emoji to [TS]

00:29:38   whoever the heck wanted it so I could be [TS]

00:29:40   sure that other people would see the [TS]

00:29:41   same things I did because I had the [TS]

00:29:43   expectation that given the choice [TS]

00:29:45   they'll choose apples emoji over [TS]

00:29:47   Google's whose goals is weird and ugly [TS]

00:29:48   or whatever like I don't know if that's [TS]

00:29:49   entirely true but I would prefer that [TS]

00:29:52   world and I think being the de facto [TS]

00:29:54   visual leader emoji has more value to [TS]

00:29:56   Apple as a company than retaining its [TS]

00:29:59   fancy stuff to only be on its platform [TS]

00:30:02   there's also the issue of like app [TS]

00:30:05   design quality like you know this is not [TS]

00:30:08   quite the same but honestly it's not [TS]

00:30:10   that different imagine if we were not [TS]

00:30:13   allowed to use the same at the San [TS]

00:30:14   Francisco font in our apps that Apple [TS]

00:30:17   had this wonderful system font that all [TS]

00:30:19   their apps used but the third part of [TS]

00:30:21   developers could not use the San [TS]

00:30:22   Francisco font in their apps period what [TS]

00:30:25   that would mean would be that every app [TS]

00:30:26   would have to figure out some fonts that [TS]

00:30:29   it could use probably make its own or by [TS]

00:30:30   its own license its own so what that [TS]

00:30:32   would do is not only would all apps look [TS]

00:30:35   different like way more than they do now [TS]

00:30:37   and sometimes in bad ways but that also [TS]

00:30:39   would draw some lines between apps that [TS]

00:30:42   had money behind them and apps that [TS]

00:30:43   didn't so much it would make that more [TS]

00:30:45   apparent and you would have you'd have [TS]

00:30:47   like a bigger quality a visual quality [TS]

00:30:49   difference making quality app design [TS]

00:30:51   less accessible to people and also there [TS]

00:30:55   would be somebody out there like you [TS]

00:30:56   know we would all just go use the Google [TS]

00:30:58   open-source fonts or whatever like there [TS]

00:31:00   would be some small collection of free [TS]

00:31:03   or low-cost fonts for developers to just [TS]

00:31:05   go get instead and so you would have iOS [TS]

00:31:09   apps [TS]

00:31:10   the design as you were just saying [TS]

00:31:11   jointly the design would basically be [TS]

00:31:12   dictated by third parties like googled [TS]

00:31:15   who were offering some kind of [TS]

00:31:16   permissive font that we could use [TS]

00:31:17   instead the emotion situation if we [TS]

00:31:20   can't use them in text labels and stuff [TS]

00:31:21   isn't that different because the fact is [TS]

00:31:24   app design is including emoji now that [TS]

00:31:27   is happening it's been happening it's [TS]

00:31:29   going to happen more emoji is how is is [TS]

00:31:32   a is becoming an increasing part of how [TS]

00:31:35   people use computers what how people [TS]

00:31:38   expect to be able to use apps what [TS]

00:31:40   people how how things should look how [TS]

00:31:42   people expect things to look so a lot of [TS]

00:31:45   apps want or need to use emoji in their [TS]

00:31:47   UI and if we can't use Apple's emoji [TS]

00:31:50   there we're gonna have to go get our own [TS]

00:31:52   made which almost no one can afford to [TS]

00:31:54   do this with the biggest companies or go [TS]

00:31:57   you know license some open-source just [TS]

00:31:59   so you go use some open source one like [TS]

00:32:00   Google's if we I don't even know if [TS]

00:32:02   we're allowed to put their license but I [TS]

00:32:03   know it's pretty permissive so maybe an [TS]

00:32:05   English case what you said is right John [TS]

00:32:07   in which case then you know app then all [TS]

00:32:09   third-party apps on iOS looked like [TS]

00:32:11   these weird other emoji and then apples [TS]

00:32:13   look weird by comparison you know so [TS]

00:32:15   that's not a good situation to be in [TS]

00:32:17   which is why I think like for the same [TS]

00:32:20   reason that we are allowed to use the [TS]

00:32:22   San Francisco font in our apps on iOS as [TS]

00:32:25   long as we don't like rip out that font [TS]

00:32:27   and bring it to Android for that same [TS]

00:32:29   reason we should also be able to use the [TS]

00:32:31   Apple emoji set in our you eyes as long [TS]

00:32:34   as that emoji set does not leave iOS [TS]

00:32:36   well I wanted to be used on Android too [TS]

00:32:38   because I want the uniformity but as for [TS]

00:32:40   using it just in iOS Apple does have a [TS]

00:32:43   point which I can imagine being made in [TS]

00:32:45   some future to view that would be [TS]

00:32:46   secession if it hasn't already in that [TS]

00:32:48   they're not gonna say this but it would [TS]

00:32:51   almost be better if you if you like [TS]

00:32:53   ripped off the image as a ping and put [TS]

00:32:56   it in your app than if you did it as a [TS]

00:32:58   character because if you do it as a [TS]

00:33:00   character Apple changes its emoji font [TS]

00:33:03   from time to time and your UI like if [TS]

00:33:06   they changed that star to be something [TS]

00:33:08   totally different and it clashes with [TS]

00:33:09   you UI all of sudden because it's not [TS]

00:33:11   yellow anymore and you expected it to be [TS]

00:33:12   yellow or the cloud that used to look a [TS]

00:33:14   certain way it looks a totally different [TS]

00:33:15   way and you know sometimes they change [TS]

00:33:17   the the emoji so much that semantically [TS]

00:33:20   doesn't even you know convey the same [TS]

00:33:22   message [TS]

00:33:22   it's probably not a good idea to use a [TS]

00:33:25   little graphic that you don't control as [TS]

00:33:28   part of your user interface unless [TS]

00:33:29   you're willing to chase that around but [TS]

00:33:31   of course once you start taking ripping [TS]

00:33:32   off the image of it that's even worse in [TS]

00:33:34   terms of Apple getting all uppity about [TS]

00:33:36   it's a copyright and everything so again [TS]

00:33:39   if they gave a permissive license and [TS]

00:33:41   just consider these like these are free [TS]

00:33:42   glyphs that you can use in your thing if [TS]

00:33:44   you want it you know that's the case [TS]

00:33:45   where I would say if you want to use it [TS]

00:33:47   as your user interface you can only do [TS]

00:33:48   it on an Apple platform so it not on any [TS]

00:33:49   other ones and then that the license [TS]

00:33:52   would say if you want to use it as you [TS]

00:33:54   know as text or like if someone types [TS]

00:33:56   text and they want to see like in the [TS]

00:33:57   slack application on Windows that would [TS]

00:33:59   be the case where you say fine you can [TS]

00:34:00   use our emoji just don't use them in [TS]

00:34:02   your user interface on Windows but it [TS]

00:34:03   you can use them for typing on those [TS]

00:34:05   anyway I think there's a thing there's [TS]

00:34:07   definitely a way for Apple to sort of [TS]

00:34:11   have their cake and eat it too and I [TS]

00:34:12   don't think the the way that is the most [TS]

00:34:14   benefit to Apple you're setting aside [TS]

00:34:16   developers the most been an apple is [TS]

00:34:18   keeping it so tight that you know that [TS]

00:34:20   people can use it even on Apple's [TS]

00:34:22   platform and I don't even think it's [TS]

00:34:24   gonna eat it just to confine it to a [TS]

00:34:25   because I don't think there's any [TS]

00:34:26   advantage or I don't think the advantage [TS]

00:34:29   is worth being that restrictive and [TS]

00:34:32   saying come to Apple for our cool emoji [TS]

00:34:34   because people won't and some other [TS]

00:34:36   uglier form of emoji will spread [TS]

00:34:37   everywhere and then Apple people will [TS]

00:34:38   feel weird because they'll send you the [TS]

00:34:40   grimacing face and other people will see [TS]

00:34:41   something different and not understand [TS]

00:34:42   what you're saying and that will make [TS]

00:34:44   Apple people feel marginalized rather [TS]

00:34:45   than the other way around I just want us [TS]

00:34:49   to be able to use some OG on Apple [TS]

00:34:50   platforms just like Marco said is that [TS]

00:34:53   so much to ask [TS]

00:34:54   yeah I mean I've been following the drum [TS]

00:34:56   but I'm sure I'm assuming that that [TS]

00:34:58   there'll be some nuances there because I [TS]

00:35:00   think Apple's goal is to make sure emoji [TS]

00:35:02   and stuff looks nice on their own [TS]

00:35:04   platform right I don't think they're [TS]

00:35:06   gonna be so restrictive as the you know [TS]

00:35:07   they did let the guys that through but [TS]

00:35:10   that's just you know that's just me [TS]

00:35:11   thinking that the App Store has been [TS]

00:35:12   more reasonable than usual in the past [TS]

00:35:14   year or so we are sponsored this week by [TS]

00:35:18   Casper for a limited time visit Casper [TS]

00:35:20   comm slash savings and receive up to 200 [TS]

00:35:23   dollars off your purchase of $2,000 or [TS]

00:35:25   more this special offer expires February [TS]

00:35:27   20th 2018 see Casper comm slash terms [TS]

00:35:30   for more details [TS]

00:35:31   podcast listeners are invited to take [TS]

00:35:33   advantage of Casper's competitive [TS]

00:35:36   presidents day offer for the first time [TS]

00:35:39   ever Casper has three wonderful mattress [TS]

00:35:42   lines to choose from the original Casper [TS]

00:35:44   the innovative new wave and the [TS]

00:35:46   streamlined essential and they also [TS]

00:35:48   offer sheets pillows bed frames even dog [TS]

00:35:51   beds they aren't just a mattress company [TS]

00:35:53   so everyone in the family can sleep [TS]

00:35:54   comfier than ever before Casper is the [TS]

00:35:57   place to shop for presidents day [TS]

00:35:59   mattress savings this year they sell [TS]

00:36:01   directly to you eliminating adding added [TS]

00:36:03   cost and saving you money [TS]

00:36:05   and you can be sure of every purchase [TS]

00:36:07   from Casper because they offer a 100 [TS]

00:36:09   night risk-free sleep on it trial if it [TS]

00:36:12   doesn't work out for you [TS]

00:36:13   returns are hassle-free if you aren't [TS]

00:36:15   completely satisfied sleep in superior [TS]

00:36:18   comfort for the rest of 2018 and beyond [TS]

00:36:21   with the help of the Internet's and my [TS]

00:36:23   favorite mattress brand for a limited [TS]

00:36:25   time visit Casper calm slash savings and [TS]

00:36:28   receive up to $200 off your purchase of [TS]

00:36:30   $2,000 or more this special offer [TS]

00:36:33   expires February 20th 2018 see Casper [TS]

00:36:36   calm / terms for more details once again [TS]

00:36:39   that's Casper calm / savings and this [TS]

00:36:42   offer expires February 20th 2018 thank [TS]

00:36:45   you so much to Kashmir for sponsoring [TS]

00:36:46   our show I started using its adieu app [TS]

00:36:52   this past winter I had only one well [TS]

00:36:55   I'll get there okay I had always kind of [TS]

00:36:57   used reminders the bill Tina rappley [TS]

00:37:00   reminders app very lightly like I'd have [TS]

00:37:02   it remind me of maybe one thing a week [TS]

00:37:04   and you know simple stuff like take out [TS]

00:37:06   the garbage you know stuff like that [TS]

00:37:07   I very lightly used it and it was never [TS]

00:37:11   really never ly a habit for overcast [TS]

00:37:13   planning I kept a task paper document [TS]

00:37:16   since the beating of overcast and even [TS]

00:37:18   before that since for a lot of [TS]

00:37:19   Instapaper [TS]

00:37:20   and I still find the test paper format [TS]

00:37:23   really nice for like planning a software [TS]

00:37:25   release for an indie developer like me [TS]

00:37:27   but this past holiday season I was just [TS]

00:37:29   super busy and like everything in my [TS]

00:37:31   life was like half done projects and [TS]

00:37:34   things I had to you know worry about and [TS]

00:37:36   check in on and and try to complete all [TS]

00:37:38   this crazy stuff and I finally started [TS]

00:37:39   using reminders very heavily and what [TS]

00:37:44   really got me into it was Siri capture [TS]

00:37:48   see refresh hurts me a lot [TS]

00:37:50   but it's pretty good at reminders like [TS]

00:37:53   it's you know it's not perfect but it's [TS]

00:37:56   it's close enough that it's like it's [TS]

00:37:57   useful and I found it to be a very nice [TS]

00:38:00   way to capture like as I'm out as I'm [TS]

00:38:03   thinking about something oh [TS]

00:38:04   remind me to blah blah blah you know [TS]

00:38:05   okay the problem with Apple reminders is [TS]

00:38:08   that while the Siri capture on Apple [TS]

00:38:11   reminders is great [TS]

00:38:13   pretty much everything else about it is [TS]

00:38:15   terrible like the the only reason why I [TS]

00:38:18   ever used reminders to enter tasks is [TS]

00:38:20   because I'd never had to actually use [TS]

00:38:23   the reminders app to enter a task [TS]

00:38:25   creating a task on the reminders app is [TS]

00:38:27   awful like the the UI is incredibly [TS]

00:38:30   clunky it's ugly it's hideous it still [TS]

00:38:33   has a lot of like weird like iOS you [TS]

00:38:36   know pre iOS seven kind of behaviors and [TS]

00:38:38   looks and everything it and and it's [TS]

00:38:41   it's especially horrible on the Mac like [TS]

00:38:44   it's way worse than the Mac but no does [TS]

00:38:45   an iOS it the Apple reminders on the Mac [TS]

00:38:47   is honestly embarrassing and and maybe [TS]

00:38:51   at some point they're going to do what [TS]

00:38:53   they did with notes where they like they [TS]

00:38:54   totally redid the Notes app a few years [TS]

00:38:56   back and made it awesome maybe that's [TS]

00:38:57   coming to reminders I hope it's coming [TS]

00:38:58   reminders but we don't know whether that [TS]

00:39:00   will happen yet so I started seeking out [TS]

00:39:02   third-party apps to to help me finally [TS]

00:39:05   do either of you use reminders or to do [TS]

00:39:07   apps because of hearing a friend of the [TS]

00:39:12   show Mike Hurley talked about it [TS]

00:39:14   constantly I think it was Mike I'm [TS]

00:39:16   pretty sure it was Mike now I'm having [TS]

00:39:17   second thoughts but anyway somebody in [TS]

00:39:19   my life had talked about the app D you e [TS]

00:39:21   do and because I decided that I wanted [TS]

00:39:25   to have occasional periodic reminders [TS]

00:39:28   that were repeating and all I wanted was [TS]

00:39:30   reminders I didn't want to go all the [TS]

00:39:31   way into like OmniFocus or anything like [TS]

00:39:33   that I just wanted to have reminders are [TS]

00:39:35   repeated I've started using D you e do [TS]

00:39:38   and if I'm honest I kind of really love [TS]

00:39:41   it because it does exactly what I want [TS]

00:39:44   which is reminders often times but not [TS]

00:39:46   always periodic and most importantly [TS]

00:39:49   that will nag you to death which is [TS]

00:39:52   exactly what I need because I'm the kind [TS]

00:39:54   of person that'll be like oh yeah take [TS]

00:39:55   out the trash yeah sure I'll do that in [TS]

00:39:57   ten minutes [TS]

00:39:57   you know like clear you know clear the [TS]

00:39:59   notification whatever you can't clear [TS]

00:40:02   the notification until you did it [TS]

00:40:03   mistake you can never clear never I mean [TS]

00:40:06   unless it's complete I know I'm not [TS]

00:40:08   saying it's not a KC problem but I know [TS]

00:40:10   myself one has to know oneself and I [TS]

00:40:13   know myself and myself is the kind of [TS]

00:40:15   person oh yeah sure I'll get that in a [TS]

00:40:18   minute [TS]

00:40:19   and so I have been using do for I want [TS]

00:40:22   to say three to six months and I kind of [TS]

00:40:26   love it I just used the default [TS]

00:40:28   reminders one [TS]

00:40:30   I'm also because it was the one that had [TS]

00:40:32   serious support for so long when no [TS]

00:40:33   other ones did right so remind me to [TS]

00:40:35   whatever like that's one of the few [TS]

00:40:36   times I use Siri to do that occasionally [TS]

00:40:39   I will type them in and you can actually [TS]

00:40:41   type like remind me to you know do [TS]

00:40:43   whatever at 7:00 p.m. tomorrow and that [TS]

00:40:45   will save you from having to look at the [TS]

00:40:47   UI that lets you pick dates and times [TS]

00:40:48   which is not fun to use but that's it [TS]

00:40:52   just never use any third-party apps I [TS]

00:40:54   use it very rarely it's usually like and [TS]

00:40:57   like Marco said usually for capture like [TS]

00:40:59   I'm in a situation where however I would [TS]

00:41:03   normally make sure I remembered you this [TS]

00:41:05   is not available I can't put it on my [TS]

00:41:07   calendar or that would be too cumbersome [TS]

00:41:08   but my phone is there so you just pick [TS]

00:41:10   it up baba remind me to do the bubble [TS]

00:41:11   blah right you know remind me to go pick [TS]

00:41:13   up my daughter and in 15 minutes to [TS]

00:41:15   remind me to I'm you know I usually [TS]

00:41:17   Ferb's you know ro I mean just throw the [TS]

00:41:19   sauce in ten minutes or whatever that's [TS]

00:41:21   why I get annoyed that it won't do a [TS]

00:41:22   repeating reminder for 10 minutes [TS]

00:41:23   because I don't know why because it [TS]

00:41:25   won't but but yeah not very frequently [TS]

00:41:29   but when I do use it it's Syria and it's [TS]

00:41:31   on my phone and it's plain old reminders [TS]

00:41:33   quick addendum I should mention that for [TS]

00:41:36   shopping lists and only shopping lists I [TS]

00:41:39   also use the app any list which I love [TS]

00:41:42   it's really really great at doing shared [TS]

00:41:45   shopping lists before everyone writes me [TS]

00:41:48   email yes I am aware that reminders can [TS]

00:41:51   do shared reminders lists I am I am [TS]

00:41:55   aware that that's a thing I don't care [TS]

00:41:57   for it I much prefer any list for [TS]

00:41:59   reasons that are not interesting for [TS]

00:42:01   right now but anyway I use any list and [TS]

00:42:04   I don't remember if I stumbled upon that [TS]

00:42:06   myself or if that's because Jason Snell [TS]

00:42:08   who is also in any list person had told [TS]

00:42:11   me about it it could have been either [TS]

00:42:13   but one way or another if you're the [TS]

00:42:15   kind of person that wants to have a [TS]

00:42:16   gross [TS]

00:42:17   that's shared between you and your [TS]

00:42:18   partner which is me I'd wouldn't I'm [TS]

00:42:21   sorry your partner isn't me you know [TS]

00:42:23   what I mean [TS]

00:42:23   point I'm driving at is that if you want [TS]

00:42:26   to have a shared shopping list I cannot [TS]

00:42:28   recommend any list enough the notes will [TS]

00:42:30   do that now to the fancy version of [TS]

00:42:32   notes has that's true that's true can [TS]

00:42:34   you can make a shared note and you can [TS]

00:42:35   put those little radio buttons on it's [TS]

00:42:37   not as nice as any list but you know if [TS]

00:42:39   you're if you're it's a good way to try [TS]

00:42:41   out like you see if this is a thing that [TS]

00:42:42   you'll want to use and you don't want to [TS]

00:42:44   bother downloading another I've just [TS]

00:42:45   tried and notes and if it seems nice get [TS]

00:42:46   a better app like any list yeah yeah I [TS]

00:42:48   keep mean to try any list because of [TS]

00:42:50   your recommendations Casey mostly I [TS]

00:42:51   think it's like I've heard you mention [TS]

00:42:53   her a few times and yeah because I would [TS]

00:42:55   like to like right now I just have a [TS]

00:42:57   shopping list and the way we share it is [TS]

00:42:58   TIFF tells me hey add this to your [TS]

00:43:00   shopping list [TS]

00:43:01   oh that's barbaric that's far better [TS]

00:43:03   that's a good system that I bet she [TS]

00:43:04   likes oh I have a worse problem like [TS]

00:43:06   I've I've been trying to get my wife to [TS]

00:43:08   use any kind of shared grocery list I [TS]

00:43:11   bought and subscribe to any list I've [TS]

00:43:12   tried using notes I've tried using other [TS]

00:43:14   third-party apps whose names I've [TS]

00:43:15   forgotten it's just go down my purchases [TS]

00:43:17   and just the problem is she she just [TS]

00:43:19   wants to use paper she just wants to use [TS]

00:43:21   paper it's like in her purse or in her [TS]

00:43:23   wallet and she wants to use the [TS]

00:43:25   whiteboard that's on the fridge and like [TS]

00:43:28   three pieces of paper in the whiteboard [TS]

00:43:29   I'm like but but those aren't [TS]

00:43:30   electronically shared and if I read it [TS]

00:43:32   on the like oh I didn't see it on the [TS]

00:43:34   whiteboard I had a separate list I wrote [TS]

00:43:35   down on this piece of paper so I'm stuck [TS]

00:43:38   outside the digital realm there's no [TS]

00:43:40   real computer solution to that [TS]

00:43:41   just like I bet TIFF enjoys the system [TS]

00:43:43   where she just yells things to you and [TS]

00:43:45   it's like paper doesn't work for me [TS]

00:43:47   because so right now I use the app clear [TS]

00:43:49   and I know I've heard they're they have [TS]

00:43:50   like a new beta going on that's supposed [TS]

00:43:52   to be a lot better but I'm not on that [TS]

00:43:53   beta I'm just using the old one which is [TS]

00:43:55   like not even updated for the iPhone 10 [TS]

00:43:56   and everything but what I like about [TS]

00:43:58   clear is that it's very simple and it [TS]

00:43:59   lets me manually reorder things really [TS]

00:44:02   easily you could drag the road it's [TS]

00:44:03   because what I do with my shopping lists [TS]

00:44:05   the reason I don't use paper is you know [TS]

00:44:07   I'll enter things you know however they [TS]

00:44:09   come to me but then before I go shot I'm [TS]

00:44:11   the shopper and before I go shopping I [TS]

00:44:13   reorder them to be in the order that I [TS]

00:44:15   know they're in the store because I know [TS]

00:44:17   I know the stores really well like it's [TS]

00:44:18   so like I know where things are and so [TS]

00:44:20   all the Rings I'm like okay I'll be that [TS]

00:44:21   you know walking to the produce first of [TS]

00:44:23   all the pretty stuff on top and I and so [TS]

00:44:24   as I'm going through the store I can [TS]

00:44:25   very quickly check them off [TS]

00:44:28   Marco why do you do this to yourself any [TS]

00:44:30   list will do this for you doesn't know [TS]

00:44:32   my stores well no it doesn't know your [TS]

00:44:34   stores but if you enter I don't know [TS]

00:44:35   like banana it will be smart enough to [TS]

00:44:38   put that in the produce section so it's [TS]

00:44:40   also a single list will be section 2 2 [TS]

00:44:43   in it defaults to groceries but you can [TS]

00:44:45   set up you know other things but if you [TS]

00:44:48   enter banana it is smart enough to put [TS]

00:44:50   that in the produce section if you enter [TS]

00:44:51   milk it's smart enough to put that in [TS]

00:44:53   the dairy section you are begging for [TS]

00:44:55   any list you just don't know it [TS]

00:44:56   alright that's a I will I will [TS]

00:44:58   definitely give it a shot anyway so [TS]

00:45:00   going back to my to-do item look I've [TS]

00:45:02   been trying to talk about for like - [TS]

00:45:05   alright so what I what I really came to [TS]

00:45:09   want like I wanted basically something [TS]

00:45:11   that was fairly simple like reminders [TS]

00:45:14   that had great Siri integration I [TS]

00:45:16   basically wanted like reminders Pro like [TS]

00:45:18   what reminders would be if Apple did it [TS]

00:45:21   from scratch today and actually put [TS]

00:45:22   resources on it instead of just whatever [TS]

00:45:23   the heck is working on it and how it [TS]

00:45:25   works is probably nobody what I want is [TS]

00:45:28   reminders Pro basically I don't want to [TS]

00:45:31   practice getting things done or any kind [TS]

00:45:33   of GTD like system I know I'm not that [TS]

00:45:36   kind of person I respect people who do [TS]

00:45:39   that that's that's great for you and [TS]

00:45:41   that's not for me at all I want [TS]

00:45:43   basically a flat simple like single [TS]

00:45:47   screen home view of what's going on when [TS]

00:45:51   I complete that I'm I want to disappear [TS]

00:45:52   I don't want to see future items at all [TS]

00:45:55   until their date comes up you know I [TS]

00:45:58   have the concept of like separate [TS]

00:46:00   projects or lists but I only need like [TS]

00:46:02   one level of that I don't need things [TS]

00:46:04   like contacts and tags to also be here [TS]

00:46:07   like I really just need like a very [TS]

00:46:09   simple hierarchy very simple like flat [TS]

00:46:11   structure and I really dislike the [TS]

00:46:14   concept that most these other apps have [TS]

00:46:16   where they have an inbox between capture [TS]

00:46:20   and when it's in like it's home I don't [TS]

00:46:23   want that extra step I don't want to [TS]

00:46:24   have to review my inbox I want I want to [TS]

00:46:26   just say in my Siri command when I'm [TS]

00:46:28   recording the to-do item I want to say [TS]

00:46:32   where it goes right then and not have [TS]

00:46:34   anything in the inbox if I don't specify [TS]

00:46:36   a project I want like a default list [TS]

00:46:38   that just all the - I just arrived in [TS]

00:46:41   that list [TS]

00:46:41   this is this is basically have reminders [TS]

00:46:43   works just reminders is terrible in all [TS]

00:46:46   other ways and I've want something [TS]

00:46:48   better so the Mac is my primary platform [TS]

00:46:52   for viewing editing and completing tasks [TS]

00:46:55   so it must have a good Mac app my [TS]

00:46:59   primary capture platform is Siri on the [TS]

00:47:02   phone so it must have an iOS app with [TS]

00:47:04   Siri integration it should be able to [TS]

00:47:06   handle recurring tasks pretty well [TS]

00:47:08   because I have a lot of those and I want [TS]

00:47:11   whatever app I use to be an active [TS]

00:47:13   development on all three major Apple [TS]

00:47:15   platforms Mac iPhone and iPad so some [TS]

00:47:18   nice to haves I would like maybe to have [TS]

00:47:21   shared list or shared projects I think I [TS]

00:47:24   might someday want a web service for [TS]

00:47:28   some kind of API integration but I [TS]

00:47:30   haven't in practice actually needed that [TS]

00:47:32   for anything yet so maybe I won't [TS]

00:47:33   actually need that after all and just [TS]

00:47:35   kind of a nice to have like the apps [TS]

00:47:37   should be pretty because I'm an apple [TS]

00:47:39   person damn it and I like things to be [TS]

00:47:41   pretty like I'm like an attractive app [TS]

00:47:44   that is you know simple and has a little [TS]

00:47:46   stuff okay so Apple reminders was not [TS]

00:47:48   doing it for me in many ways I like it [TS]

00:47:50   you know I like the integration Apple [TS]

00:47:52   reminders is the only one that works [TS]

00:47:55   with Siri on the Mac because there is no [TS]

00:47:58   Sirikit on the Mac so any of the [TS]

00:48:00   third-party apps no matter how good [TS]

00:48:02   their Mac apps are they cannot take it [TS]

00:48:04   take it to do item from Siri on the Mac [TS]

00:48:07   that's annoying but that's an Apple [TS]

00:48:09   problem really that's that's not there [TS]

00:48:10   at the apps fault you know the Apple [TS]

00:48:13   reminders app will always get system [TS]

00:48:16   integration abilities and stuff like [TS]

00:48:17   that first before those are third-party [TS]

00:48:19   way to do it if it doesn't arrive at the [TS]

00:48:20   same time so there's a big advantage to [TS]

00:48:22   Apple reminders they're just keeping it [TS]

00:48:23   simple keeping in the system and [TS]

00:48:24   everything but again it's just it's such [TS]

00:48:27   a clunky app I really didn't like it [TS]

00:48:29   very much [TS]

00:48:29   I tried to do it to do it has tons of [TS]

00:48:33   features it's very much web service [TS]

00:48:35   oriented so it has really good [TS]

00:48:37   collaboration features shared projects [TS]

00:48:39   shared list API integration stuff like [TS]

00:48:42   that they have apps on every platform [TS]

00:48:45   but the two duyst Mac app is horrendous [TS]

00:48:48   it is basically a very poorly wrapped [TS]

00:48:52   web app like like slack it makes that [TS]

00:48:55   look native-like it's real I cannot [TS]

00:48:57   believe that oh it's bad it every [TS]

00:48:59   interaction with the todoist Mac app [TS]

00:49:02   feels just wrong and limited and nothing [TS]

00:49:05   works the way you think honestly I think [TS]

00:49:06   it's kind of embarrassing if if iOS is [TS]

00:49:10   your primary platform like I understand [TS]

00:49:12   like why Federico likes to do us because [TS]

00:49:13   iOS it's a primary platform and he needs [TS]

00:49:15   collaboration feature with some of his [TS]

00:49:17   employees and stuff so that makes total [TS]

00:49:18   sense but for me as somebody who works [TS]

00:49:21   alone on a Mac I cannot recommend it to [TS]

00:49:23   us at all it's it's rough I also I [TS]

00:49:26   couldn't get over like hearing hearing [TS]

00:49:28   the way that people like Federico and [TS]

00:49:30   Mike talk about todoist one of the [TS]

00:49:31   problems is that Siri doesn't really [TS]

00:49:33   recognize the the pronunciation todoist [TS]

00:49:35   you have to pronounce it wrong like two [TS]

00:49:38   diced or other or like I couldn't get [TS]

00:49:40   over that like I I know that's that's [TS]

00:49:42   kind of a stupid reason to not pick an [TS]

00:49:44   app but like even if everything else was [TS]

00:49:46   great about it the fact that every time [TS]

00:49:47   I added a reminder I have to tell my [TS]

00:49:49   phone to add something seduced I didn't [TS]

00:49:51   know if I couldn't get past so I also I [TS]

00:49:56   tried OmniFocus this OmniFocus seems to [TS]

00:49:59   be kind of like the the good default for [TS]

00:50:02   if you want a powerful task management [TS]

00:50:03   system you should probably just use [TS]

00:50:04   OmniFocus the omni group makes amazing [TS]

00:50:07   software that they have an amazing [TS]

00:50:09   long-standing reputation for very high [TS]

00:50:12   quality Mac and iOS software and and [TS]

00:50:16   OmniFocus has been around for a long [TS]

00:50:17   time it's a very mature of tons of [TS]

00:50:19   guides on how to use it and everything [TS]

00:50:21   it has first-class Siri integration it's [TS]

00:50:23   frequently updated very well supported [TS]

00:50:25   very powerful very customizable but it's [TS]

00:50:30   ultimately very complex it's far too [TS]

00:50:34   complex for me maybe someday I will [TS]

00:50:36   graduate to OmniFocus but I'm not ready [TS]

00:50:39   for that right now and I might never be [TS]

00:50:41   you know it has a lot of roots in [TS]

00:50:43   getting things done and and the kind of [TS]

00:50:45   people who practice that kind of like [TS]

00:50:47   more structured system than what I'm [TS]

00:50:48   looking for maybe it would be possible [TS]

00:50:50   to heavily customize it to be what I [TS]

00:50:53   want but I honestly don't have the time [TS]

00:50:55   or will to do that and again maybe [TS]

00:50:57   someday I will but for now OmniFocus is [TS]

00:50:59   just way too complex for me so then I [TS]

00:51:02   tried things things has frankly the best [TS]

00:51:06   Mac app I've seen like not among all the [TS]

00:51:09   Mac guys [TS]

00:51:09   to do it's a really good mac app I think [TS]

00:51:12   the mac app is actually better than [TS]

00:51:13   their iOS apps again first-class Siri [TS]

00:51:16   integration one thing I like about [TS]

00:51:17   things is that it's one syllable and [TS]

00:51:21   it's a regular word that C R you can [TS]

00:51:23   always recognize properly and it also [TS]

00:51:25   doesn't sound too nerdy if I'm saying it [TS]

00:51:27   when other people are around like if I [TS]

00:51:30   have to say it's a joist to Siri that's [TS]

00:51:32   rough [TS]

00:51:32   how many focus sounds okay but a little [TS]

00:51:35   nerdy things you breeze right right by [TS]

00:51:37   you don't even hear it right on this on [TS]

00:51:39   this topic of the names of the app by [TS]

00:51:41   the way this is another place where I [TS]

00:51:43   feel like I've been waiting too long for [TS]

00:51:45   what seems like a pretty obvious [TS]

00:51:47   advancement this I understand why [TS]

00:51:50   circuit works the way it does with the [TS]

00:51:51   name of the app as part of the sentence [TS]

00:51:53   then you say it but that's not how [TS]

00:51:54   people want to talk to their phones even [TS]

00:51:55   if it's a nice one syllable normal word [TS]

00:51:57   that's not how people want to talk to [TS]

00:51:58   things right if someone decides that [TS]

00:52:00   they're gonna use things as their [TS]

00:52:01   reminder app this should be away in iOS [TS]

00:52:03   to tell it when I say remind me to blah [TS]

00:52:06   blah blah I mean to do it in things cuz [TS]

00:52:08   I use things like it's not I don't think [TS]

00:52:10   it's asking for the moon and it makes [TS]

00:52:12   the experience so much better because [TS]

00:52:13   your interface is talking and once I [TS]

00:52:16   feel like I have to talk about [TS]

00:52:17   particular syntax I'm playing a text [TS]

00:52:18   adventure game with my phone I don't [TS]

00:52:19   want to do that I want to speak I want [TS]

00:52:21   to speak in a natural way that's one of [TS]

00:52:23   the beautiful things that I love about a [TS]

00:52:25   lot of the cylinders and like my Google [TS]

00:52:27   home right for my Google home I just say [TS]

00:52:29   things however the hell it occurs to me [TS]

00:52:31   to say it and it amazes me that it [TS]

00:52:33   figures out what I meant in a very [TS]

00:52:35   narrow problem domain like remind me to [TS]

00:52:37   or do like there's already a million [TS]

00:52:39   ways to say set a reminder of all blah I [TS]

00:52:41   shouldn't have to insert the name of the [TS]

00:52:43   app I want to use especially if it's the [TS]

00:52:44   same app every time that would avoid the [TS]

00:52:46   Taos and it would just make it better [TS]

00:52:50   this gets back to the you know default [TS]

00:52:51   apps things over anyway that's I if [TS]

00:52:54   Apple's looking for something for iOS 13 [TS]

00:52:56   not iOS 12 make that experience better [TS]

00:52:58   because we do like talking to our phones [TS]

00:53:00   we don't like say to doused or things or [TS]

00:53:03   whatever yeah and and and there was [TS]

00:53:05   actually they actually midoriko brought [TS]

00:53:06   this up on connected this week the [TS]

00:53:07   episode that you all should have already [TS]

00:53:08   been listening to for the Jeremy Birds [TS]

00:53:10   emoji interview anyway that was also in [TS]

00:53:12   this episode and Federico mentioned like [TS]

00:53:15   like you know people have for years we [TS]

00:53:16   wanted Apple to have default apps choice [TS]

00:53:19   for things like the browser in the mail [TS]

00:53:20   client and I understand why they don't [TS]

00:53:22   do that and [TS]

00:53:23   you know there that's been argued to [TS]

00:53:25   death but this does seem like an area [TS]

00:53:27   where that's very easy to say yes to [TS]

00:53:31   like sirikit has a limited number of [TS]

00:53:34   intense there doesn't seem to be any [TS]

00:53:36   downside to enabling like a default [TS]

00:53:39   option for something for somebody to say [TS]

00:53:40   like okay things is my reminders app [TS]

00:53:43   like always put reminders and things you [TS]

00:53:45   know the X or Y is my Notes app like [TS]

00:53:46   that like that should be that should be [TS]

00:53:48   supported there should be a system-wide [TS]

00:53:50   preference to just default that and and [TS]

00:53:52   if Apple you know really wants to make [TS]

00:53:54   Syria awesome I hope they consider that [TS]

00:53:56   but anyway so go just finishing up with [TS]

00:54:00   things there's no shared functionality [TS]

00:54:04   like know kind of like shared groups or [TS]

00:54:06   lists or projects not like that there is [TS]

00:54:08   no API or public web service but they [TS]

00:54:12   did recently had an email in feature so [TS]

00:54:14   you can kind of simulate parts of it you [TS]

00:54:15   can like get like the add this two [TS]

00:54:17   things working by basically using email [TS]

00:54:19   as a gateway one of the annoying things [TS]

00:54:21   about things his head I can't figure out [TS]

00:54:25   how to make a new task from Siri go [TS]

00:54:29   directly to no project anytime you can [TS]

00:54:33   sit you can say like remind me today to [TS]

00:54:34   do this thing and things and then it [TS]

00:54:36   gets no project I think but it gets [TS]

00:54:38   today I can't figure out how to make it [TS]

00:54:40   go no project if you say any time it [TS]

00:54:42   goes to the inbox I don't want it like I [TS]

00:54:44   don't want anything to ever go to the [TS]

00:54:45   inbox ever on the Mac you can configure [TS]

00:54:47   it to basically skip that with quick [TS]

00:54:49   entry but you can't do that with Siri [TS]

00:54:51   kit on iOS yet and it annoys me but for [TS]

00:54:54   the most part I have found things pretty [TS]

00:54:56   good there's a couple of other small [TS]

00:54:58   weirdnesses so for instance the [TS]

00:55:01   repeating UI is really weird like once [TS]

00:55:06   you get it set up it's fine but creating [TS]

00:55:08   recurring events is very unintuitive [TS]

00:55:10   like I mentioned earlier that I don't [TS]

00:55:13   want things that are in the future to [TS]

00:55:15   show up until it's their time to show up [TS]

00:55:17   then is only done on the granularity of [TS]

00:55:20   the day level so you can't say don't [TS]

00:55:24   show up until Wednesday at 9:00 p.m. [TS]

00:55:27   that I have to put out the cardboard [TS]

00:55:29   recycling all day today I've had put out [TS]

00:55:32   cut the cardboard recycling on my to-do [TS]

00:55:34   list even though I really shouldn't do [TS]

00:55:35   it till 9:00 p.m. you can [TS]

00:55:36   a reminder to alert you of that at 9 [TS]

00:55:38   p.m. but it's gonna show up on your list [TS]

00:55:40   all day I don't love that and and [TS]

00:55:43   finally the weather it is an active [TS]

00:55:46   development or not it's kind of a big [TS]

00:55:49   question mark with things because the [TS]

00:55:52   developer of a culture code went for a [TS]

00:55:54   very long span between previous versions [TS]

00:55:57   and it seemed that many times as though [TS]

00:56:01   the app was abandoned and it turned out [TS]

00:56:03   it wasn't but there were there were such [TS]

00:56:04   long delays that it's a little hard to [TS]

00:56:07   shake the fear that it might get [TS]

00:56:09   abandoned again or go for long spans [TS]

00:56:11   without updates again and so finally [TS]

00:56:13   after trying all these apps I finally [TS]

00:56:15   understand why so many of our podcaster [TS]

00:56:19   friends are always talking about their [TS]

00:56:21   frustrations with their to-do apps and [TS]

00:56:23   why there are we switching between them [TS]

00:56:25   and saying oh now I'm switching this [TS]

00:56:26   because this thing I know we've me about [TS]

00:56:27   this other app I finally get it because [TS]

00:56:30   it's such it's it's a hard problem like [TS]

00:56:33   this is a very personal app you're [TS]

00:56:35   you're trying to codify people's [TS]

00:56:38   internal mental systems in an app and [TS]

00:56:40   that's really hard to do in a way that [TS]

00:56:42   pleases many people no at none of these [TS]

00:56:44   apps are perfect for almost anybody [TS]

00:56:46   everyone is kind of 70% satisfied with [TS]

00:56:50   any given one at most one thing I [TS]

00:56:53   thought of though is that there's really [TS]

00:56:54   nothing saying that you have to only use [TS]

00:56:57   one to-do app for everything like case [TS]

00:57:00   you mentioned earlier that you know you [TS]

00:57:01   use any list for groceries and you use [TS]

00:57:03   do for some other stuff like mmm it that [TS]

00:57:05   is totally a solution like if you don't [TS]

00:57:07   like the way things does recurring [TS]

00:57:09   reminders like I could just have some [TS]

00:57:12   other app remind me to take out the [TS]

00:57:14   trash like I don't need things to be the [TS]

00:57:16   app that does all that stuff there's [TS]

00:57:18   nothing saying that you only have to use [TS]

00:57:20   one app for everything you can have [TS]

00:57:23   different to do apps for different needs [TS]

00:57:26   depending on what they're good at your [TS]

00:57:28   grocery store shopping list does not [TS]

00:57:30   need to necessarily be in the same app [TS]

00:57:32   as like your next version of your iOS [TS]

00:57:34   app what you're doing for it it would be [TS]

00:57:36   nice if one app could do multiple things [TS]

00:57:38   like that in a way that didn't step on [TS]

00:57:39   each other but doesn't have to be I've [TS]

00:57:41   settled on things for the time being and [TS]

00:57:44   I think I'm gonna be here for a while [TS]

00:57:45   because the Mac app is just so much [TS]

00:57:47   nicer than the other Mac apps [TS]

00:57:48   and so I like things a lot it does fit [TS]

00:57:52   what I want in some ways there's some [TS]

00:57:54   things about that that are just friction [TS]

00:57:56   to me but for the most part it's it's [TS]

00:57:59   the closest I found to good for me but [TS]

00:58:01   I'm also probably gonna check out any [TS]

00:58:03   list for grocery stuff and I'm really [TS]

00:58:05   curious to know whatever the heck clear [TS]

00:58:07   is working on for their next version for [TS]

00:58:09   you know other like really casual stuff [TS]

00:58:10   like groceries but ultimately I'm now [TS]

00:58:13   using it to do app and it's things and [TS]

00:58:15   it's pretty nice not perfect but [TS]

00:58:18   definitely the nicest for me once I kind [TS]

00:58:21   of got a feel for it it just felt really [TS]

00:58:23   right for for the way I like to use [TS]

00:58:26   things and the way I like things to to [TS]

00:58:27   look and work and behave and yeah there [TS]

00:58:30   is some friction but ultimately I like [TS]

00:58:31   it so thanks things [TS]

00:58:33   what are you use for your calendar [TS]

00:58:35   calendar and so how do you decide [TS]

00:58:40   whether something goes on your calendar [TS]

00:58:42   or in one of those to-do app things oh [TS]

00:58:46   that's that's easy a to-do app is a list [TS]

00:58:48   of things I need to get done a calendar [TS]

00:58:50   is a list of like time slots that are [TS]

00:58:53   booked so like you know it and this is [TS]

00:58:55   great apologies to people like Merlin [TS]

00:58:57   who have talked about this at great [TS]

00:58:59   length forever but like you know a [TS]

00:59:01   calendar entry is like a thing that I [TS]

00:59:03   have to do at that time so like if I [TS]

00:59:06   have to have a meeting with somebody or [TS]

00:59:09   recording a podcast like that has to [TS]

00:59:11   happen at a certain time that is not a [TS]

00:59:13   to-do entry that's a do entry as things [TS]

00:59:16   like you know follow-up about this thing [TS]

00:59:18   I had this email about like you know [TS]

00:59:20   stuff it's or like you know check out [TS]

00:59:22   the trash you know sometime today or [TS]

00:59:24   stuff like that that exactly wanted to [TS]

00:59:26   be told to take out the trash precisely [TS]

00:59:28   at 9:00 yes but I don't have to do it at [TS]

00:59:30   9:00 I have to do it sometime between [TS]

00:59:31   9:00 and tomorrow morning so where would [TS]

00:59:34   you put the fact that a plumber is [TS]

00:59:36   coming that's a calendar entry because [TS]

00:59:38   that is how that is like a thing that is [TS]

00:59:40   happening at a certain time it's not a [TS]

00:59:41   to-do item it's it's an event like [TS]

00:59:43   that's that's a very different you know [TS]

00:59:45   semantics thing I think that the line is [TS]

00:59:47   fuzzier than you're making it sound [TS]

00:59:49   because anything I feel like has a date [TS]

00:59:52   and a time associated with it is a [TS]

00:59:54   potential candidate for our calendar but [TS]

00:59:56   it's also a potential candidate for a [TS]

00:59:58   reminder but it's also a potential [TS]

00:59:59   candidate [TS]