The Accidental Tech Podcast

265: Simon Says Volume Five


01:00:00   Apple APIs for a long time that certain [TS]

01:00:01   points on one side are better than the [TS]

01:00:03   ports on the other side that's been true [TS]

01:00:04   for many laptops in Apple's history yeah [TS]

01:00:06   it's always kind of annoying but we [TS]

01:00:07   understand why it is the way it is and [TS]

01:00:09   we accept it I don't think it's a source [TS]

01:00:11   of ridicule all right I just feel like [TS]

01:00:14   all I can imagine is all of us going [TS]

01:00:15   haha those idiot PC P plate it's an Emmy [TS]

01:00:18   we have talked about that as an inherent [TS]

01:00:19   problem with using the same connector [TS]

01:00:21   for all these things I think the I still [TS]

01:00:22   think that the advantages are using the [TS]

01:00:23   same connection for all them outweigh [TS]

01:00:25   the disadvantages but you know as marker [TS]

01:00:27   just that your laptop has a port as a [TS]

01:00:28   whole that's exactly the same shape is [TS]

01:00:30   the ones at Marcos and yet it is not [TS]

01:00:31   capable of the things that Marcos Marcos [TS]

01:00:34   okay it's both the same cables fit into [TS]

01:00:38   both of them but if you plug in a thing [TS]

01:00:40   that expects Thunderbolt endears it [TS]

01:00:41   won't work and there's no indication for [TS]

01:00:43   that physically speaking I don't even [TS]

01:00:45   know if there's a little lightning bolt [TS]

01:00:46   thingy next to them anymore no so I mean [TS]

01:00:49   that's just that's just the nature [TS]

01:00:50   wouldn't be next to yours so I you know [TS]

01:00:55   I think the implicit assumption I'm also [TS]

01:00:58   thinking of my own feelings about [TS]

01:01:00   underlyings discussion is that I still I [TS]

01:01:02   still believe I'm still hoping I guess [TS]

01:01:04   that when Apple does you know make a [TS]

01:01:07   bigger vision as a laptop line that one [TS]

01:01:12   or more of the new laptops the [TS]

01:01:13   introduced will have more ports than the [TS]

01:01:15   thing that it's replacing and that's why [TS]

01:01:17   I keep getting to like what do you think [TS]

01:01:18   they'll add or whatever if if I'm wrong [TS]

01:01:20   about that and if they introduced a [TS]

01:01:22   whole new laptop line that's like the [TS]

01:01:24   next generation after like this current [TS]

01:01:25   crop of 2016 2017 like I've had time to [TS]

01:01:27   process the the feedback from the market [TS]

01:01:30   and you know someone and so forth and [TS]

01:01:31   none of them have any more ports I will [TS]

01:01:35   be extremely disappointed like I [TS]

01:01:37   realized in myself like I've just been [TS]

01:01:38   assuming basically since the Apple [TS]

01:01:39   roundtable about the Mac when they [TS]

01:01:41   talked about the Mac Pro from that point [TS]

01:01:43   on I you know I read into what they said [TS]

01:01:46   would imply hopes and dreams of saying [TS]

01:01:48   yeah I know you're talking about the Mac [TS]

01:01:49   Pro and the iMac Pro like I know that's [TS]

01:01:51   what this is really about and about a [TS]

01:01:52   rededication to the Mac but the few [TS]

01:01:54   sentences they said about the laptops I [TS]

01:01:56   latched on to really hard and said that [TS]

01:01:59   means eventually you know after you know [TS]

01:02:00   two year cycle whatever takes a long [TS]

01:02:02   time like not not immediately but [TS]

01:02:03   eventually when they do the next big [TS]

01:02:05   laptop revision one or more of them will [TS]

01:02:07   have more ports and I don't know what [TS]

01:02:09   I'm going to do if that turns out not to [TS]

01:02:11   be the case like my faith and [TS]

01:02:13   I'm already a laptop hater I guess but [TS]

01:02:15   my faith in Apple's laptops will be [TS]

01:02:17   fundamentally shaken because so far it's [TS]

01:02:18   still just like they made a wrong turn [TS]

01:02:20   and things were already in the pipeline [TS]

01:02:22   and they couldn't really do much about [TS]

01:02:24   the revision for 2017 all they did was [TS]

01:02:27   that the rubber gaskets and stuff and [TS]

01:02:28   it's like hopefully they know it's wrong [TS]

01:02:30   next time they do the big revision [TS]

01:02:32   that'll be the time to make more [TS]

01:02:33   different fundamental decisions but if [TS]

01:02:35   the next ones come along and they're [TS]

01:02:36   exactly the same set of just USBC only a [TS]

01:02:39   MacBook one is still the MacBook one the [TS]

01:02:41   the other one still just have two ports [TS]

01:02:42   and you know and there's no changes and [TS]

01:02:45   no max a4 no SD card no HDMI and nobody [TS]

01:02:48   gets any not even an additional USB C [TS]

01:02:51   port nothing I don't know I'm gonna be [TS]

01:02:53   super disappointed [TS]

01:02:54   I'll probably you know I probably can [TS]

01:02:56   stall myself by hugging my new Mac Pro [TS]

01:02:57   but but I you know but I don't know what [TS]

01:03:01   you have you did you guys like have you [TS]

01:03:04   internalized that as a thing you expect [TS]

01:03:05   and so now you're set up to be [TS]

01:03:07   disappointed by not being there or are [TS]

01:03:08   you still like pessimistic and you'll be [TS]

01:03:10   pleasantly surprised if they do anything [TS]

01:03:11   that I will be stunned if there's any [TS]

01:03:14   sort of and not really Maricopa but like [TS]

01:03:17   if they add any sort of ports to any of [TS]

01:03:20   these laptops I will be flabbergasted [TS]

01:03:22   I'm not saying it's it's unreasonable [TS]

01:03:25   but I do think it is a what did you say [TS]

01:03:28   like egg on the face sort of admission [TS]

01:03:30   that oh maybe we didn't get this exactly [TS]

01:03:32   right if they had a USB C or a [TS]

01:03:34   thunderbolt like it's not an admission [TS]

01:03:36   of anything is just they added a more [TS]

01:03:37   port even that will be something it'll [TS]

01:03:38   say look we realize us PC is great but [TS]

01:03:41   when you only get two of them one's [TS]

01:03:42   taken with power it really limits things [TS]

01:03:43   so now you got one more so you got three [TS]

01:03:44   yeah I mean and let's be realistic here [TS]

01:03:47   also like if you look at if you look at [TS]

01:03:49   the side one of these things and you [TS]

01:03:49   look at like the height of ports I think [TS]

01:03:53   it's very unlikely that we will see the [TS]

01:03:55   return of USB a or even MagSafe because [TS]

01:03:58   I don't think they fit I think they're [TS]

01:03:59   too tall I don't think they could [TS]

01:04:01   reasonably fit those it would have to be [TS]

01:04:03   a pneumatic safe yeah it had to be [TS]

01:04:05   MagSafe three yeah right because I don't [TS]

01:04:07   I can't see them doing that and I'm [TS]

01:04:10   honestly I'm totally okay with USB C [TS]

01:04:13   charging [TS]

01:04:13   I wish the charger was nicer I wish it [TS]

01:04:15   had things like the charging light and [TS]

01:04:17   some kind of version of MagSafe would be [TS]

01:04:20   nice but other than that actually like [TS]

01:04:24   USB C charge because you can get [TS]

01:04:25   third-party chargers that have like you [TS]

01:04:27   know like [TS]

01:04:27   like the wonderful anchor one that has [TS]

01:04:29   the built-in USB charging also like the [TS]

01:04:31   in you know it makes the charging [TS]

01:04:32   situation much more flexible and then [TS]

01:04:34   you couldn't you can travel a little bit [TS]

01:04:36   lighter and stuff like that so I like [TS]

01:04:37   that [TS]

01:04:38   but if you look at what can actually fit [TS]

01:04:41   in this new super thin case design not a [TS]

01:04:45   lot can USBC you know you can fit more [TS]

01:04:49   of them and maybe you know what Apple [TS]

01:04:51   maybe you could put them a little [TS]

01:04:51   further apart because they're really [TS]

01:04:54   close to each other and it makes it a [TS]

01:04:56   little bit annoying to use also the [TS]

01:04:58   headphone jack should move back to the [TS]

01:05:00   left side where it belongs because [TS]

01:05:03   there's a reason why headphones were [TS]

01:05:05   always on the left side of laptops [TS]

01:05:07   before it's because when you have a [TS]

01:05:09   headphone cable that only has a wire on [TS]

01:05:11   one side historically that has been [TS]

01:05:14   conventionally on the left ear cup so [TS]

01:05:16   your headphone cable goes down the left [TS]

01:05:18   of your cup down your left arm into the [TS]

01:05:19   left side port of the laptop when it's [TS]

01:05:21   on the right side you have to cross your [TS]

01:05:22   headphone cable over your laptop which [TS]

01:05:24   sucks so that's wrong anyway you can [TS]

01:05:26   wrap it around the back oh oh by the way [TS]

01:05:28   speaking of ports on different sides I [TS]

01:05:29   do that's another thing I appreciate [TS]

01:05:30   about USB power that you can connect the [TS]

01:05:33   power to decide so depending on like [TS]

01:05:34   where you are on the couch or wherever [TS]

01:05:36   if you're in someplace that you can do [TS]

01:05:37   it like that's why I think they should [TS]

01:05:39   always keep that and I really don't [TS]

01:05:41   never expect them to make MagSafe 3 but [TS]

01:05:43   I've been musing on it lately yeah [TS]

01:05:45   anyway so I think if we look at like [TS]

01:05:48   what kind of ports we might [TS]

01:05:50   realistically actually get I wouldn't [TS]

01:05:53   expect USBA I wouldn't expect MagSafe SD [TS]

01:05:56   cards are actually plausible that I [TS]

01:05:58   think could fit if I'm not sure if they [TS]

01:06:00   want to but again I think that would go [TS]

01:06:02   a long way towards addressing a lot of [TS]

01:06:04   people's complaints HDMI almost [TS]

01:06:07   certainly won't fit they could do mini [TS]

01:06:09   HDMI but they won't you know they're [TS]

01:06:12   gonna rely on Thunderbolt USBC for that [TS]

01:06:14   but ultimately I think the most [TS]

01:06:17   realistic option is to either get no [TS]

01:06:20   port changes at all which like John I [TS]

01:06:23   would be very disappointed by or to get [TS]

01:06:26   more USB C ports which I would be very [TS]

01:06:28   happy with so we'll see ya more USB [TS]

01:06:32   supports is the most likely I'm still [TS]

01:06:35   rooting for SD I think back when we [TS]

01:06:36   talked about this originally I said just [TS]

01:06:38   add an SD card and they'll be fine but [TS]

01:06:40   the more I think [TS]

01:06:40   about the port being taken up by power [TS]

01:06:41   and experiencing myself the more I think [TS]

01:06:43   more or USBC would be good idea and by [TS]

01:06:45   the way for our magazine three design [TS]

01:06:47   again not that they're doing this but if [TS]

01:06:49   you give up on the notion that the [TS]

01:06:50   magnet is on the side of the computer [TS]

01:06:52   you can do lots of interesting things [TS]

01:06:53   imagine if MagSafe look like a little [TS]

01:06:54   shovel and and it was a large surface [TS]

01:06:56   area magnet sort of on the bottom like [TS]

01:06:59   in an L shape like it clipped onto the [TS]

01:07:00   corner and tucked underneath a little [TS]

01:07:02   curve like there are things you could do [TS]

01:07:03   to add much more magnet surface area [TS]

01:07:05   while keeping it very thin like we don't [TS]

01:07:07   have to think inside the box defined by [TS]

01:07:09   MagSafe as it previously existed manic [TS]

01:07:11   magnetically detachable charging cables [TS]

01:07:15   for trip proof nests is I still think a [TS]

01:07:18   good idea and an idea that could [TS]

01:07:19   manifest in a way they will work with [TS]

01:07:21   the thinnest possible laptops still so [TS]

01:07:24   in the chat room expressly asked an [TS]

01:07:26   interesting question they said which you [TS]

01:07:28   prefer second USB see on the adorable or [TS]

01:07:31   a headphone jack and and I presume the [TS]

01:07:33   genesis of this is that on the opposite [TS]

01:07:35   side of the laptop on the right hand [TS]

01:07:37   side and mark oh you're right to say [TS]

01:07:38   that that is bananas but on the right [TS]

01:07:40   hand side the laptop of the of the [TS]

01:07:41   adorable [TS]

01:07:42   there is a headphone jack and I would [TS]

01:07:45   absolutely without a shadow of a doubt [TS]

01:07:47   trade in that headphone jack for another [TS]

01:07:49   USB C port without question because [TS]

01:07:51   you've you've got air pause that's right [TS]

01:07:53   yeah I mean you know and all sorts of [TS]

01:07:55   other bluetooth headphones and in yeah [TS]

01:07:57   there are occasions that I have plugged [TS]

01:07:59   in headphones to this laptop but they [TS]

01:08:01   are extremely rare and I would get much [TS]

01:08:04   more maybe not daily but much more [TS]

01:08:07   frequent use out of a second USB C port [TS]

01:08:09   then I would the headphone jack that's [TS]

01:08:11   there today there's no reason to make [TS]

01:08:13   that trade though we already did 20 [TS]

01:08:15   shows about complaining about there's no [TS]

01:08:17   room for another USB port there is that [TS]

01:08:20   phone it will be fine we are sponsored [TS]

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01:08:44   the other Apple devices in your [TS]

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01:08:48   harder to manage everybody has iPads [TS]

01:08:50   iPhones and Macs and this is especially [TS]

01:08:52   true if employees are indifferent [TS]

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01:09:40   business today with Jam for now thank [TS]

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01:09:44   our show WTC is announced it is in San [TS]

01:09:52   Jose again it is the 4th through the 8th [TS]

01:09:55   of June which is phenomenally great [TS]

01:09:57   because that's what the three of us [TS]

01:09:59   guessed it would be and that's what we [TS]

01:10:01   booked hotel tickets for a long time ago [TS]

01:10:03   so that's great news it is going to be [TS]

01:10:07   apparently about marzipan or whatever [TS]

01:10:10   it's being called today if you believe [TS]

01:10:12   what people are looking at on the [TS]

01:10:13   invitation which i think is a exercise [TS]

01:10:15   in futility because the invitation never [TS]

01:10:17   use anything but also of interest on [TS]

01:10:21   that Monday which is the fourth all [TS]

01:10:24   three of your hosts will be there to do [TS]

01:10:25   another episode in addition of ATP live [TS]

01:10:28   which is part of a what are they calling [TS]

01:10:30   it like a podcast fair or something like [TS]

01:10:32   that festival festival that's what I was [TS]

01:10:33   looking for thank you which means to [TS]

01:10:35   live fought cast at all calm we so yeah [TS]

01:10:39   so we're going to be doing a kind of a [TS]

01:10:41   joint thing between us alt conflict like [TS]

01:10:46   Marco said and relay they're going to be [TS]

01:10:48   doing an episode of connected in [TS]

01:10:50   addition to some other things that I [TS]

01:10:53   genuinely don't know what's happening [TS]

01:10:54   but I know enough to know that it's [TS]

01:10:55   going to be an extravaganza so if you [TS]

01:10:58   are interested in coming to see ATP live [TS]

01:11:01   in San Jose on Monday June 4th you can [TS]

01:11:04   get tickets at alt con Fissel alt cuffs [TS]

01:11:07   website [TS]

01:11:07   we'll put a link in the show notes they [TS]

01:11:10   are five dollars a piece if they're [TS]

01:11:11   still available I honestly haven't even [TS]

01:11:12   looked that money goes to alt conf which [TS]

01:11:14   is good because all conf is free so we [TS]

01:11:17   don't see any of that money but I don't [TS]

01:11:18   think that's a bad thing at all and [TS]

01:11:20   additionally you can get tickets to the [TS]

01:11:21   relay thing as well or to all con and [TS]

01:11:24   it's worth noting that even if WDC lot [TS]

01:11:27   if the if the lottery doesn't work out [TS]

01:11:29   well for you in addition to alt con [TS]

01:11:31   there's also layers that will be going [TS]

01:11:33   on the same time run by friend of the [TS]

01:11:34   show jesse char and a couple of other [TS]

01:11:37   lovely women actually I think it's just [TS]

01:11:38   Elaine and she but anyway they are [TS]

01:11:41   awesome they are super super awesome and [TS]

01:11:44   the the conference is super super [TS]

01:11:46   awesome and the snacks at the conference [TS]

01:11:47   are super super awesome so no matter how [TS]

01:11:49   you slice it later layers is great all [TS]

01:11:51   conf is great W DC is great plenty of [TS]

01:11:53   options if you can find yourself in San [TS]

01:11:55   Jose that week is that it well that was [TS]

01:11:58   fast [TS]

01:11:59   you covered it pretty well go team [TS]

01:12:01   raised in chief yeah chief summarize our [TS]

01:12:03   and cheap chief actually do my job for [TS]

01:12:04   once you talk about the WWC graphics [TS]

01:12:07   which you alluded to earlier I think [TS]

01:12:10   some of the commentary about those are [TS]

01:12:12   commentary tweets whatever about this [TS]

01:12:14   have kind of combined to things that are [TS]

01:12:17   not really related one is the artwork [TS]

01:12:20   Apple puts on the email invitations to [TS]

01:12:23   select press when they are gonna have an [TS]

01:12:25   event come hear us talk about whatever [TS]

01:12:28   we you know like iPhone announcement [TS]

01:12:30   event or you know Mac update a bit press [TS]

01:12:32   events right and traditionally they make [TS]

01:12:34   a little graphic and usually sometimes a [TS]

01:12:35   little phrase underneath it right and [TS]

01:12:38   then there is what we're actually [TS]

01:12:39   talking about here which is every year [TS]

01:12:41   when they do WWDC there's some kind of [TS]

01:12:43   graphical motif or theme it's used like [TS]

01:12:46   in the banners that hang in the [TS]

01:12:48   exhibition halls and the rooms where [TS]

01:12:50   they have things that's used in all the [TS]

01:12:51   websites and the materials and the [TS]

01:12:53   emails and it started off pretty generic [TS]

01:12:56   many many years ago but it has evolved [TS]

01:12:58   so that now each WWC has kind of like a [TS]

01:13:02   branding theme or flavor so for the [TS]

01:13:06   press invitations [TS]

01:13:08   sometimes those have been intentionally [TS]

01:13:11   pointing to something they're gonna say [TS]

01:13:13   like the one with a little rotating [TS]

01:13:15   Apple with the like back to the Mac [TS]

01:13:17   thing behind it where they were going to [TS]

01:13:18   talk more about the Mac and guess what [TS]

01:13:20   they talked more about them [TS]

01:13:21   some of them are only explicable in [TS]

01:13:25   hindsight where you can tell some of the [TS]

01:13:26   graphic treatments on the invitation [TS]

01:13:28   were the same ones they would use when [TS]

01:13:29   they announced a particular product [TS]

01:13:30   whether it's the iPhone or whatever but [TS]

01:13:33   sometimes it's just a fun graphical [TS]

01:13:35   theme that has to do with hey we have an [TS]

01:13:36   app store and you make apps or it and [TS]

01:13:38   absurd these little rounded rectangle [TS]

01:13:39   things so we use lots of lot of rounded [TS]

01:13:41   rectangles in our and our stuff but I [TS]

01:13:42   would say that there is a fairly solid [TS]

01:13:46   track record of some of the time the [TS]

01:13:48   press invitations do in fact [TS]

01:13:50   intentionally indicates something that [TS]

01:13:52   they're going to talk about in a vague [TS]

01:13:53   way WWC art on the other hand has a much [TS]

01:13:57   worse track record of communicating [TS]

01:13:59   anything about what's going to breathe [TS]

01:14:01   Zenta to other than the fact that it's a [TS]

01:14:02   developer conference where they tell you [TS]

01:14:03   about developing crapple platforms as [TS]

01:14:05   far as I can recall there has never been [TS]

01:14:07   a WWDC website that hinted strongly at [TS]

01:14:11   the specific nature of a specific thing [TS]

01:14:13   they're going to announce probably [TS]

01:14:15   mostly because at the time this artwork [TS]

01:14:17   is commissioned they're not even [TS]

01:14:18   entirely sure what's going to be [TS]

01:14:19   presented at WWDC and things that you [TS]

01:14:21   know are going into and out of the [TS]

01:14:23   keynote and into and out of the sessions [TS]

01:14:24   for a long time so I feel like this [TS]

01:14:29   route trying to read the tea leaves in [TS]

01:14:31   sort work it's probably about as useful [TS]

01:14:34   as trying to read the tea leaves in last [TS]

01:14:36   year's artwork which is all those top [TS]

01:14:37   views of of people yeah a little bit [TS]

01:14:40   which was like it's a particular artist [TS]

01:14:42   who does that style of stuff and it was [TS]

01:14:44   that that aesthetic theme was all over [TS]

01:14:46   WWC yesteryear but it had nothing to do [TS]

01:14:49   with anything that was presented it was [TS]

01:14:50   just a cool fun marketing style that [TS]

01:14:53   talked about you know people developers [TS]

01:14:55   are people and they're doing developing [TS]

01:14:57   things and it's fun and interesting [TS]

01:14:58   forever [TS]

01:14:59   all right this one looks super cool and [TS]

01:15:01   it's got these cool 3d representations [TS]

01:15:03   of like you know UI elements from iOS [TS]

01:15:06   and the Mac it's because and it's got [TS]

01:15:09   curly braces and other weird shapes it [TS]

01:15:13   communicates like hey these are things [TS]

01:15:15   you use when you're developing for our [TS]

01:15:16   platforms and this is a conference about [TS]

01:15:17   developing for our platforms it's really [TS]

01:15:19   hard to read anything into it but people [TS]

01:15:21   are so they so want to see something in [TS]

01:15:25   it those things see how these are all 3d [TS]

01:15:27   it's a showing that they're moving away [TS]

01:15:28   from flat design because nothing is flat [TS]

01:15:30   in this to get it man [TS]

01:15:31   there you know and like it's really [TS]

01:15:35   reaching and I have to admit when I saw [TS]

01:15:37   this and I thought was nostalgia because [TS]

01:15:39   one of I tweeted this one of the [TS]

01:15:41   elements in this very cool looking like [TS]

01:15:43   there's an animation that goes along [TS]

01:15:44   with very cool looking 3d rendered [TS]

01:15:45   things showing a bunch of controls one [TS]

01:15:48   of the elements in the lower left corner [TS]

01:15:49   are three translucent spheres with with [TS]

01:15:54   symbols in them an X a minus and then [TS]

01:15:56   two little arrow e things like a box [TS]

01:15:58   with a slash through it and I I tweeted [TS]

01:16:02   about it with a one-word tweet said [TS]

01:16:04   memories dot a lot of people didn't know [TS]

01:16:08   they responded and thought I was [TS]

01:16:10   referring to things in like iOS 10 or [TS]

01:16:12   something or you know or pre iOS 7 or [TS]

01:16:14   whatever what I was actually referring [TS]

01:16:16   to was the window control widgets what [TS]

01:16:19   we used to call the stoplight widgets [TS]

01:16:21   red for window clothes yellow for [TS]

01:16:23   minimizing green for what used to be [TS]

01:16:24   zoom and is now or the fullscreen arosa [TS]

01:16:26   hell it does now they used to be [TS]

01:16:30   rendered as if they were glossy spheres [TS]

01:16:32   and when you brought your mouse near [TS]

01:16:35   them or hovered over one of them you'd [TS]

01:16:37   see these symbols appear in the spheres [TS]

01:16:38   and they were glassy spheres just like [TS]

01:16:40   these spheres all this is just viewing [TS]

01:16:42   them from a different angle later in the [TS]

01:16:44   life life of the Mac operating system [TS]

01:16:46   they became flatter and eventually they [TS]

01:16:48   just became like what they are now which [TS]

01:16:50   is like you know flat colors of red [TS]

01:16:52   yellow and where they're not they don't [TS]

01:16:53   even look like their spheres at all [TS]

01:16:54   right even though they still have the [TS]

01:16:56   symbols in them but floating in this [TS]

01:16:58   thing are not the flat window widgets of [TS]

01:17:00   today's high sierra floating in this [TS]

01:17:01   thing are the window widgets of you know [TS]

01:17:03   cheetah puma and Panther Mac os10 I [TS]

01:17:07   forgot about mr. Jaguar sorry Mike OS [TS]

01:17:10   ten point zero one two and three I think [TS]

01:17:13   is how long these things last before [TS]

01:17:14   they start getting really flat and that [TS]

01:17:16   I thought was a nice nostalgic nod or an [TS]

01:17:19   indication that the Mac is considered [TS]

01:17:20   legacy but it's a nice nod towards the [TS]

01:17:24   past because most of the other controls [TS]

01:17:26   that you see here are clearly elements [TS]

01:17:28   from iOS or elements from applications [TS]

01:17:30   that are popularized by iOS like the [TS]

01:17:32   little dot dot when someone's typing in [TS]

01:17:33   messages right I think it's the same [TS]

01:17:35   graphic they use in in messages on the [TS]

01:17:37   Mac but I associated with iOS just [TS]

01:17:39   because that's where you know text [TS]

01:17:41   messaging first came to the Apple [TS]

01:17:43   platforms [TS]

01:17:45   my take is that you should not read into [TS]

01:17:48   these type of graphics I think this is [TS]

01:17:49   an awesome graphic I love the aesthetic [TS]

01:17:51   theme and I'm just enjoying it as cool [TS]

01:17:53   branding for WWC yeah I agree with [TS]

01:17:57   everything inter said so we'll all be [TS]

01:18:00   there and I'm excited for it it's one of [TS]

01:18:02   my favorite times a year and it's really [TS]

01:18:04   really fun I don't really care at all [TS]

01:18:08   about textures so I don't know which one [TS]

01:18:10   of you added this to the show notes but [TS]

01:18:12   do you want to take it away [TS]

01:18:13   apparently magazines are a really hot [TS]

01:18:15   business right now they're it's really a [TS]

01:18:17   growth industry apples getting into the [TS]

01:18:18   air you really messed that one up Marco [TS]

01:18:19   mm we should explain what this thing is [TS]

01:18:23   I hadn't heard of it before today [TS]

01:18:24   surprised because really popular anyway [TS]

01:18:29   Apple as an apple press release end or [TS]

01:18:32   PR person would say Apple acquires small [TS]

01:18:34   companies all the time you know it [TS]

01:18:36   actually is really a high number every [TS]

01:18:37   time they say like did you know the last [TS]

01:18:39   year Apple acquired 35 companies or some [TS]

01:18:40   some huge entry like really they you [TS]

01:18:43   know it's mostly small like Apple [TS]

01:18:44   doesn't want to buy them when they're [TS]

01:18:46   attending dollar company they want to [TS]

01:18:47   get them before that sometimes they buy [TS]

01:18:49   companies just for the people sometimes [TS]

01:18:50   for the technologies or patents rarely [TS]

01:18:53   do they buy them for complete working [TS]

01:18:55   businesses but that does happen to like [TS]

01:18:57   beets they bought beets and continue to [TS]

01:18:59   sell Beats headphones as Beats [TS]

01:19:00   headphones right pickets maybe the one [TS]

01:19:02   of the most recent full-fledged [TS]

01:19:04   businesses they purchased so texture [TS]

01:19:05   seems like one of the small ones it's [TS]

01:19:06   not clear to me whether they bought it [TS]

01:19:07   for the business or the people or the [TS]

01:19:08   tech or anything like that but it what [TS]

01:19:10   it is described as is Netflix for [TS]

01:19:13   magazines where you play a flat fee and [TS]

01:19:14   get access to a bunch of magazines in [TS]

01:19:16   the same way you pay a flat fee every [TS]

01:19:17   month for Netflix and you get access to [TS]

01:19:18   a bunch of movies [TS]

01:19:20   why does Apple need to buy this I'm not [TS]

01:19:24   sure why they might want to buy it but [TS]

01:19:27   Apple has in the past shown that they're [TS]

01:19:30   interested in being some kind of a [TS]

01:19:34   platform aid to periodicals we all [TS]

01:19:37   remember newsstand Marco I'm sure most [TS]

01:19:38   fondly mmm [TS]

01:19:40   that was an attempt to do something like [TS]

01:19:42   this newsstand did not work out so well [TS]

01:19:44   newsstand is now gone but it signals [TS]

01:19:47   apples interest in this texture strikes [TS]

01:19:50   me as all right the approach with [TS]

01:19:52   newsstand of making this weird app slash [TS]

01:19:54   folder where a bunch of things go and [TS]

01:19:56   putting weird limitations on them a [TS]

01:19:57   giving [TS]

01:19:57   you know of recurring structures like [TS]

01:19:59   the whole newsstand thing didn't work [TS]

01:20:01   out having individual applications for [TS]

01:20:02   individual things but having them be [TS]

01:20:04   newsstand savvy that that model didn't [TS]

01:20:05   work for us let's try this model and [TS]

01:20:08   this model seems a little bit more like [TS]

01:20:10   Apple News where Apple itself could [TS]

01:20:12   potentially make an application and [TS]

01:20:13   within that application you see a bunch [TS]

01:20:16   of magazines just like within Apple news [TS]

01:20:17   you see a bunch of news and other [TS]

01:20:19   content you know content providers can [TS]

01:20:21   participate in Apple News not by [TS]

01:20:23   launching their own application that is [TS]

01:20:24   Apple News powered but rather by getting [TS]

01:20:26   their news into the one and only Apple [TS]

01:20:28   news application texture is an [TS]

01:20:31   established business that works in a [TS]

01:20:32   certain way so I'm not sure if Apple's [TS]

01:20:34   gonna rebrand it or just put it out the [TS]

01:20:35   way it is or just scrap texture entirely [TS]

01:20:37   and take those people and tell them to [TS]

01:20:39   make newsstand version 2 this time it'll [TS]

01:20:41   be better but as Marco or maybe Casey [TS]

01:20:45   pointed out it's great that they're kind [TS]

01:20:48   of into that but I'm not sure magazines [TS]

01:20:51   on computers or otherwise they're really [TS]

01:20:53   where it's at in terms of a growth [TS]

01:20:56   industry but I you know I I would give [TS]

01:20:59   Apple full credit for recognizing the [TS]

01:21:02   newsstand didn't work out Sun setting in [TS]

01:21:04   a fairly graceful way you know as I [TS]

01:21:06   think Marco said the best time to cancel [TS]

01:21:08   something is when no one notices that [TS]

01:21:09   you cancel it and many people don't [TS]

01:21:10   realize newsstand is gone now because if [TS]

01:21:12   you never really news it like isn't it [TS]

01:21:14   thank God or if you remember what news [TS]

01:21:16   thing was yeah it's gone and no one [TS]

01:21:18   really kicked up a fuss about it [TS]

01:21:20   so that was that was good and I think [TS]

01:21:22   it's worth taking another on it I know I [TS]

01:21:23   read magazines and I do have individual [TS]

01:21:25   app you know I have like the edge [TS]

01:21:26   magazine application like I read [TS]

01:21:30   magazines on my iPads I don't I'm not [TS]

01:21:31   totally offended by that idea I read [TS]

01:21:34   e-books on my iPad too and so if Apple [TS]

01:21:36   wants to make a really nice service [TS]

01:21:38   application thingy for reading magazines [TS]

01:21:41   sure give it a shot why shouldn't they [TS]

01:21:43   be allowed to give that a try yeah no [TS]

01:21:45   argument here it just this was not on my [TS]

01:21:48   radar before and as soon as we cease [TS]

01:21:50   talking about it it will not be on my [TS]

01:21:51   radar yeah do either one of you read [TS]

01:21:53   magazines at all on any iOS device no I [TS]

01:21:56   don't read magazines at all on anything [TS]

01:21:57   ever yeah no I mean I still recon driver [TS]

01:22:02   on paper and I read edge on paper and [TS]

01:22:04   also in iOS I think there iOS app I mean [TS]

01:22:07   it's not great but it's not the bad old [TS]

01:22:08   days of like the original Zinio for [TS]

01:22:10   I know this is the new Zinio behind [TS]

01:22:12   these I have no idea what the technology [TS]

01:22:13   powers it is but it's not just a bunch [TS]

01:22:14   of PDFs they throw under your screen [TS]

01:22:16   although with today's retina they could [TS]

01:22:18   probably do that it would probably be [TS]

01:22:20   okay especially on the twelve point nine [TS]

01:22:21   inch because it's a practically magazine [TS]

01:22:23   size and what the brightness screen it [TS]

01:22:24   would look great I'm mostly doing it for [TS]

01:22:26   edge and card driver because I like the [TS]

01:22:28   content but the presentation in Iowa [TS]

01:22:30   isn't bad and it's nice like not to have [TS]

01:22:32   to carry around you know if you're going [TS]

01:22:34   on vacation you want to read through [TS]

01:22:35   your last three issues of edge magazine [TS]

01:22:37   to have them all on your iPad rather [TS]

01:22:38   than three paper things yeah it's [TS]

01:22:40   convenient so I'm I will probably [TS]

01:22:44   download this and try it and see how [TS]

01:22:46   good the app is and if there are any [TS]

01:22:47   magazines that I care about in there I [TS]

01:22:48   doubt I'll subscribe to it though cool [TS]

01:22:51   I have nothing to say about this I know [TS]

01:22:54   I just say I don't care and maybe I [TS]

01:22:56   should care but I think Apple buy is [TS]

01:22:58   leading manufacturer of fax machines [TS]

01:23:01   yeah I mean here's the thing with [TS]

01:23:03   magazines like we were making fun of [TS]

01:23:05   them because magazines is the old world [TS]

01:23:06   or whatever but websites most websites [TS]

01:23:08   are not that different from magazines [TS]

01:23:09   and once you have a magazine that [TS]

01:23:11   publishes through an application it's [TS]

01:23:13   like is this just like a closed version [TS]

01:23:14   of the web and a closed version of a web [TS]

01:23:16   browser maybe but I you know websites [TS]

01:23:20   and magazines still seem slightly [TS]

01:23:22   different like magazines have websites [TS]

01:23:24   but I don't know maybe I'm just [TS]

01:23:27   nostalgic for the old days of magazines [TS]

01:23:28   and there's lots of legacy businesses [TS]

01:23:30   that are tied to the magazine format [TS]

01:23:34   that I'm glad to see allowed to live [TS]

01:23:37   another decade or two through an effort [TS]

01:23:39   like this alright so time for skc p m-- [TS]

01:23:42   at Wallin writes my mac pro does not [TS]

01:23:44   have a Wi-Fi card [TS]

01:23:45   wait this is a Mac Pro question I don't [TS]

01:23:47   care bill Balinor writes I'm just [TS]

01:23:49   kidding I'm kidding my Mac Pro does not [TS]

01:23:52   have a Wi-Fi card my wife and son both [TS]

01:23:53   of accounts in the Mac Pro and I was [TS]

01:23:54   thinking of using migration assistant [TS]

01:23:55   copy stuff from the old machine to the [TS]

01:23:57   new can I connect them via ethernet for [TS]

01:23:59   this purpose does or will it matter that [TS]

01:24:01   the new machine will be running on High [TS]

01:24:02   Sierra and the old machine is El Capitan [TS]

01:24:04   I've looked for specific documentation [TS]

01:24:06   on this online and haven't found a [TS]

01:24:07   satisfyingly definitive answer no I [TS]

01:24:09   don't think I have ever used migration [TS]

01:24:13   assistant ever [TS]

01:24:14   I'm not saying it's bad I'm not saying [TS]

01:24:15   that I'm doing things the right way it's [TS]

01:24:17   just I like to kind of start fresh each [TS]

01:24:19   time I know that this is also a little [TS]

01:24:21   bit different because you're talking [TS]

01:24:22   about other people and they may not want [TS]

01:24:24   to [TS]

01:24:24   heart fresh even though you do but I I [TS]

01:24:27   don't really have any good answers with [TS]

01:24:29   regard to migration assistant have you [TS]

01:24:31   guys to use that I thought both of you [TS]

01:24:33   have I definitely have I'm a big [TS]

01:24:35   proponent of migration system I think [TS]

01:24:38   there are a couple parts this question [TS]

01:24:39   starting at the very end I've looked for [TS]

01:24:41   specific documentation haven't found [TS]

01:24:43   anything I almost guarantee that there [TS]

01:24:45   is satisfying definitive documentation [TS]

01:24:47   related to this on Apple's website but [TS]

01:24:48   yes sometimes it can be hard to find the [TS]

01:24:50   beginning of the question go back to the [TS]

01:24:51   beginning I can connect by all these [TS]

01:24:53   there are things I don't have Wi-Fi does [TS]

01:24:56   it matter I can tell you that you do not [TS]

01:24:59   want to use my gray decision migration [TS]

01:25:01   assistant over Wi-Fi if you can at all [TS]

01:25:03   help it so the fact that your Mac Pro [TS]

01:25:05   doesn't have a Wi-Fi card don't worry [TS]

01:25:06   about it I would never recommend doing [TS]

01:25:08   it [TS]

01:25:08   it was worse when Wi-Fi was slower it's [TS]

01:25:11   better that with now the Wi-Fi is faster [TS]

01:25:13   but I have not had good luck with using [TS]

01:25:15   migration assistant over Wi-Fi the good [TS]

01:25:17   news is that most reasonably modern Macs [TS]

01:25:20   can do migration assistant through [TS]

01:25:23   almost any of their ports like I don't [TS]

01:25:24   know if they can do it over the [TS]

01:25:25   headphone jack yet but like the old iPod [TS]

01:25:29   shuffle syncing over the headphones yeah [TS]

01:25:31   I used to do it through firewire you can [TS]

01:25:34   do it through Ethernet you can do it [TS]

01:25:36   through Thunderbolt you can do all [TS]

01:25:38   there's all sorts of ways that migration [TS]

01:25:40   and system will work the bad news is [TS]

01:25:42   figuring out how to get it to work with [TS]

01:25:44   especially with the more obscure ports [TS]

01:25:46   can be tricky so what I would recommend [TS]

01:25:49   is finding going back to Apple's website [TS]

01:25:51   and digging through this stuff and [TS]

01:25:52   finding the documentation for your [TS]

01:25:54   specific computer and it will usually [TS]

01:25:56   tell you and by the way from your [TS]

01:25:58   computer you can only a migrate to this [TS]

01:26:00   set of computers through these [TS]

01:26:01   interfaces like there are there is like [TS]

01:26:03   sort of a matrix of what connected ins [TS]

01:26:04   kind of use and how is known as the [TS]

01:26:06   computer and you can unfortunately find [TS]

01:26:07   yourself in a situation where you're [TS]

01:26:08   trying to migrate from like a really old [TS]

01:26:11   computer to a really new one when [TS]

01:26:13   there's no great way to do it except for [TS]

01:26:15   maybe Ethernet but then you need even an [TS]

01:26:16   adapter or whatever but I have never as [TS]

01:26:19   someone who keeps computers for a long [TS]

01:26:20   time I've never kept one long enough [TS]

01:26:21   that I was unable to run migration [TS]

01:26:23   assistant so I was just using the [TS]

01:26:25   fastest connection you can Ethernet is [TS]

01:26:27   probably sufficient and it's probably [TS]

01:26:29   the sort of the baseline so try to do [TS]

01:26:31   that if you possibly can find the docs [TS]

01:26:34   for it and just give it a try I think [TS]

01:26:36   you will be mostly [TS]

01:26:38   these were the results I always have [TS]

01:26:39   been I find like that mobile migration [TS]

01:26:41   assistance really does migrate my stuff [TS]

01:26:43   and yes it does take a long time but the [TS]

01:26:45   amount of time it takes when I do the [TS]

01:26:47   math works out to be roughly a matter of [TS]

01:26:49   data it has to transfer you know divided [TS]

01:26:52   by the the transfer rate or whatever I [TS]

01:26:54   have had almost similar look as that the [TS]

01:26:58   only differences i would suggest are [TS]

01:27:00   when you connect the old mac by a target [TS]

01:27:03   disk mode it tends to be a significantly [TS]

01:27:06   faster migration justin has an a pretty [TS]

01:27:09   big problem that i think it's had [TS]

01:27:10   basically forever in that it is terrible [TS]

01:27:13   at estimating how much time you have [TS]

01:27:15   left and it will frequently get into a [TS]

01:27:17   state where it appears as though it's [TS]

01:27:19   making no progress at all and it could [TS]

01:27:21   stay there for hours or even days and [TS]

01:27:25   that's very frustrating it's very hard [TS]

01:27:27   to tell often what it's doing whether it [TS]

01:27:29   is still going to go how long it's still [TS]

01:27:31   going to go for that's why I said do the [TS]

01:27:33   math like if you know you have you know [TS]

01:27:35   a one terabyte hard drive is mostly full [TS]

01:27:37   and you know your connection is one [TS]

01:27:38   gigabit like do the division figure out [TS]

01:27:40   how long you think it's gonna take and [TS]

01:27:41   use that as you're outside you know like [TS]

01:27:43   to get an idea of how long you think [TS]

01:27:45   it's gonna take if it takes 10 times [TS]

01:27:46   that thing something is probably gone [TS]

01:27:48   wrong but it don't you know don't [TS]

01:27:50   believe the progress bar because it [TS]

01:27:51   doesn't know well anyway I I have had [TS]

01:27:54   significantly better luck with doing it [TS]

01:27:57   via target disc mode on the on the [TS]

01:28:00   sending machine rather than like having [TS]

01:28:02   both machines run the migration [TS]

01:28:03   assistant app this would probably also [TS]

01:28:06   if there's any problems with the old one [TS]

01:28:08   being El Capitan target is mode would [TS]

01:28:11   probably avoid those problems a little [TS]

01:28:12   bit more likely or more easily than then [TS]

01:28:15   running the migrate just an app on both [TS]

01:28:17   sides but also yeah it's just I've found [TS]

01:28:20   the disk method to be way faster and way [TS]

01:28:23   more reliable and I have never had it [TS]

01:28:25   reach one of those states where it seems [TS]

01:28:27   like it's gonna just take forever [TS]

01:28:28   whereas over Wi-Fi and even Gigabit [TS]

01:28:32   Ethernet I've had that happen so if I do [TS]

01:28:34   in target this mode you have most of the [TS]

01:28:38   options that John suggested on the old [TS]

01:28:40   Mac Pro you probably see the Mac Pro's [TS]

01:28:44   that had Wi-Fi are optional would be [TS]

01:28:45   2006 to 2008 I believe it was standard [TS]

01:28:48   after that so it's pretty old [TS]

01:28:50   it will definitely predate all [TS]

01:28:52   because thunderbolt came after the mac [TS]

01:28:53   pro so your best port is probably [TS]

01:28:56   firewire 800 assuming you have well you [TS]

01:28:59   definitely have that assuming it still [TS]

01:29:00   works then I would suggest you know if [TS]

01:29:03   you have any problems trying to do this [TS]

01:29:05   over Ethernet [TS]

01:29:05   I would suggest assuming the new machine [TS]

01:29:08   has Thunderbolt [TS]

01:29:10   go to the Apple store get a thunderbolt [TS]

01:29:12   - well let's see you're gonna need two [TS]

01:29:15   dongles all right now if I were 800 that [TS]

01:29:17   is what I've got on the iMac right now [TS]

01:29:18   isn't it suggest if you like target us [TS]

01:29:20   moment he doesn't go firewire 800 to USB [TS]

01:29:22   3 then our mold or does it hat do you [TS]

01:29:24   have to adapt 2 to 3 and then 2 to 800 I [TS]

01:29:27   only have one adapter in the back of my [TS]

01:29:29   5k iMac [TS]

01:29:31   it's like firewire 800 into this adapter [TS]

01:29:35   and this adapter into the back of the [TS]

01:29:36   iMac but I confess I do not recall what [TS]

01:29:38   exactly it's going into the back of yet [TS]

01:29:40   so you know it so assuming that your he [TS]

01:29:43   doesn't actually say what he's going to [TS]

01:29:44   write no ok so assuming let's say that [TS]

01:29:49   it's a current generation machine that [TS]

01:29:51   only has Thunderbolt 3 ports you might [TS]

01:29:54   need two dongles to go once from 800 to [TS]

01:29:57   Thunderbolt 2 and then once again from [TS]

01:30:00   Thunderbolt 2 to 300 3 so that might be [TS]

01:30:02   like $80 worth of don lows because [TS]

01:30:05   Thunderbolt ones like 50 bucks [TS]

01:30:10   practically speaking the reason I find [TS]

01:30:13   myself using Ethernet is because I'm [TS]

01:30:14   doing two desktops in the far away from [TS]

01:30:15   each other and it's kind of a pain to [TS]

01:30:17   like yeah disconnected that top and lug [TS]

01:30:19   it over and put it close enough so your [TS]

01:30:20   little firewire or Thunderbolt or USBC [TS]

01:30:24   cable can connect to the right ports [TS]

01:30:25   just then you're like look you know [TS]

01:30:27   Ethernet is easier even if your home [TS]

01:30:29   isn't wire everything in it so just get [TS]

01:30:31   on your feet of Ethernet cable and plug [TS]

01:30:33   it in and snake it over and leave it [TS]

01:30:34   there for a day for you to do the [TS]

01:30:36   transfers that of course encourage you [TS]

01:30:37   to wire your house or Ethernet like a [TS]

01:30:39   civilized person yeah well I mean it to [TS]

01:30:41   me if they have a Mac Pro that doesn't [TS]

01:30:43   have Wi-Fi they probably have this [TS]

01:30:44   covered anyway so yeah that I agree try [TS]

01:30:48   Ethernet first and only go by the $80 [TS]

01:30:52   worth of dongles and cables if for some [TS]

01:30:53   reason you can't always sales and backup [TS]

01:30:56   before you do anything [TS]

01:30:57   backup make a bunch of backups take the [TS]

01:30:59   backups disconnect them from all your [TS]

01:31:01   computers put it you know put it [TS]

01:31:02   someplace else and then [TS]

01:31:04   have fun screwing through computers [TS]

01:31:05   worst case scenario you screw everything [TS]

01:31:06   up you erase everything you restore from [TS]

01:31:08   backup and then you're back to your [TS]

01:31:09   initial stage again also wait if you can [TS]

01:31:12   back up to like a USB 3 hard drive your [TS]

01:31:15   old my protists must be 3 migration but [TS]

01:31:18   yeah you could just then plug that into [TS]

01:31:19   the new computer and just do it that way [TS]

01:31:23   all right [TS]

01:31:24   Bill Balinor writes is it ok for [TS]

01:31:27   developers to force flight interactions [TS]

01:31:29   on their users such as labeling the ok [TS]

01:31:31   button and a prompt yes please or the [TS]

01:31:33   dismiss button in a confirmation dialog [TS]

01:31:35   Thanks these things make me cranky [TS]

01:31:37   you're wrong [TS]

01:31:39   this is absolutely acceptable and I like [TS]

01:31:41   it Oh God know what's right ok so ok [TS]

01:31:44   there's if done in a non-intrusive non [TS]

01:31:50   suggestive not putting words in my mouth [TS]

01:31:52   kind of way it can be fine unfortunately [TS]

01:31:56   that's not what happens in practice in [TS]

01:31:57   practice you have things like no I don't [TS]

01:32:01   want to subscribe to the newsletter and [TS]

01:32:02   get all these special deals because I'm [TS]

01:32:03   cheap like or like somebody that like [TS]

01:32:05   they make you so often the words they [TS]

01:32:09   use are passive-aggressively condemning [TS]

01:32:12   yourself for making a choice that does [TS]

01:32:15   not benefit the developer's business [TS]

01:32:17   interests and it's really obnoxious [TS]

01:32:19   oftentimes other than that it just you [TS]

01:32:22   know it tries to sound human and hip and [TS]

01:32:25   cool but it's from like a big [TS]

01:32:27   corporation and we know that's fake and [TS]

01:32:29   it comes off as just insincere fakery [TS]

01:32:32   trying to appeal to be more human from a [TS]

01:32:34   company that is anything but so it's [TS]

01:32:37   very it's very hard and very rare to get [TS]

01:32:40   this kind of thing right in a way that [TS]

01:32:42   sounds both sincere and non offensive [TS]

01:32:46   III think you're reading too much into [TS]

01:32:48   this or maybe I'm not reading enough [TS]

01:32:49   into it to me like having a having a [TS]

01:32:52   dismissed button that says things I [TS]

01:32:54   don't have a problem with that having a [TS]

01:32:55   dismiss button dismissed button that [TS]

01:32:57   says no I'm too cheap or even if it's [TS]

01:32:59   passive-aggressively saying no I'm too [TS]

01:33:01   cheap and not using those literal words [TS]

01:33:02   that yes I agree with you that's total [TS]

01:33:05   garbage but something as simple as yes [TS]

01:33:07   please or thanks or no thank you like I [TS]

01:33:09   don't have a problem with that at all [TS]

01:33:10   you I think you would have a problem [TS]

01:33:12   with the thanks because thanks is [TS]

01:33:13   putting words in your mouth like you [TS]

01:33:15   just want the box to go away so there's [TS]

01:33:16   there's two aspects of problem one is [TS]

01:33:17   the giving your you know press thing [TS]

01:33:20   personality and putting words into the [TS]

01:33:22   mouth of the user because what if [TS]

01:33:22   they're annoyed at your application [TS]

01:33:23   right now and are forced to hit a button [TS]

01:33:25   that says thanks and they don't want to [TS]

01:33:26   thank your application at all because [TS]

01:33:27   they're frustrated with your application [TS]

01:33:28   the thanks button makes them hate your [TS]

01:33:30   application even more because you're [TS]

01:33:31   forcing them to pretend they're saying [TS]

01:33:32   thanks right but the second reason [TS]

01:33:34   independent of all this stuff is people [TS]

01:33:37   are accustomed to the dialog box is [TS]

01:33:38   alerted in a certain way yes no okay [TS]

01:33:40   cancel like there are interface [TS]

01:33:41   standards that they're accustomed to and [TS]

01:33:43   if your application deviates from those [TS]

01:33:44   standards in any way there should be a [TS]

01:33:47   reason for it maybe your carrot weather [TS]

01:33:49   and you have a personality type thing [TS]

01:33:51   and that's part of the selling point of [TS]

01:33:52   your application fine but if your [TS]

01:33:53   application is selling point it's not [TS]

01:33:55   like there's a cost to defying [TS]

01:33:58   expectations it causes people to pause [TS]

01:34:00   and have to look at it and think about [TS]

01:34:01   what the hit-and and like read it causes [TS]

01:34:04   them to have to read where it's no one [TS]

01:34:05   reads yes no or okay cancel if they see [TS]

01:34:06   them a million times they just you know [TS]

01:34:08   it becomes like a visual macro you just [TS]

01:34:10   like oh I recognize that I don't know [TS]

01:34:11   which thing I want to hit or even just a [TS]

01:34:14   single button dismiss thing in iOS where [TS]

01:34:16   the button is always labeled is okay and [TS]

01:34:18   now suddenly that button has different [TS]

01:34:20   text on it you're forced to read it you [TS]

01:34:22   find out it says thanks you don't feel [TS]

01:34:23   like thanking anybody and now you're [TS]

01:34:25   annoyed so I would I would in general [TS]

01:34:28   say there is no 100% safe way to inject [TS]

01:34:32   personality into labels like that there [TS]

01:34:34   are a lot of downsides and the only [TS]

01:34:36   potential upsides are if your [TS]

01:34:37   applications value proposition is based [TS]

01:34:41   on its personality and whimsy which can [TS]

01:34:44   be done but it's much trickier than you [TS]

01:34:46   think it also be very careful when [TS]

01:34:50   you're writing dialog text if you're a [TS]

01:34:51   developer or if you're Apple mm-hmm [TS]

01:34:53   that attributes malice or actions to the [TS]

01:34:56   user or if they're in tributes its [TS]

01:34:58   intent or actions to the user that may [TS]

01:35:02   or may not be the case one of the most [TS]

01:35:04   infuriating pieces of text and all of [TS]

01:35:06   Mac OS is the dialog that comes up after [TS]

01:35:09   it has a kernel panic and shuts down and [TS]

01:35:11   reboots that says you shut down your [TS]

01:35:15   computer because of a problem and a lot [TS]

01:35:17   of times no you shut down my computer [TS]

01:35:20   because of your problem it doesn't say [TS]

01:35:23   that [TS]

01:35:24   totally that it says your computer shut [TS]

01:35:27   down doodles you shut down your computer [TS]

01:35:30   yeah I agree with John that is not how I [TS]

01:35:33   remember this are you sure I am Not sure [TS]

01:35:35   I would check because ever I don't see [TS]

01:35:38   it often but every time I see it I'm [TS]

01:35:41   like oh I'm on fire you shut down my [TS]

01:35:43   computer I didn't shut down my computer [TS]

01:35:45   so so here's what the kernel panic you [TS]

01:35:48   know the overlay the overlay that comes [TS]

01:35:49   on in five languages when you get a [TS]

01:35:50   kernel panic yeah it's not that it's [TS]

01:35:52   it's the dialogue that shows up on the [TS]

01:35:53   first boot after right okay but so [TS]

01:35:55   anyway the overlay says your computer [TS]

01:35:58   restarted because of a problems that may [TS]

01:36:00   be what I'm remembering for that wording [TS]

01:36:01   all right now the after your computer [TS]

01:36:03   restarts marker was right I'm looking at [TS]

01:36:05   this thing in Apple's website it says [TS]

01:36:07   you shut down your computer because of a [TS]

01:36:09   problem it's really it sets me on fire [TS]

01:36:12   if I ever system run apple's website up [TS]

01:36:14   we will put it in the show notes i'm [TS]

01:36:15   assuming this is the current dialog but [TS]

01:36:17   it's a Apple support document looks like [TS]

01:36:19   it might be an old theme but yeah that's [TS]

01:36:21   that's definitely at the current wording [TS]

01:36:22   yeah maybe I was reading that as your [TS]

01:36:24   because you know the the kernel panic [TS]

01:36:26   one does say you're but the dialog [TS]

01:36:28   versus you shut it doesn't even make [TS]

01:36:30   sense [TS]

01:36:30   it how would you shut down the computer [TS]

01:36:33   like spontaneously because of a problem [TS]

01:36:35   like is it just like all of a sudden you [TS]

01:36:37   saw a problem and you reach for the plug [TS]

01:36:39   in the wall and yanked it out like how [TS]

01:36:41   is that even the thing that you could do [TS]

01:36:43   because if you if you found a problem [TS]

01:36:45   and you selected shut down you would [TS]

01:36:46   never see this dialog box you know it's [TS]

01:36:48   kind of like putting words in my mouth [TS]

01:36:49   and it's like putting actions in my [TS]

01:36:51   mouth it's like no I didn't do this you [TS]

01:36:53   know you did this you know it like and [TS]

01:36:56   it's like you know so when you're you [TS]

01:36:58   know when you see an app that's like you [TS]

01:36:59   know forcing you to say thanks or no I [TS]

01:37:03   don't want to see your great deals [TS]

01:37:05   I don't like great deals like that that [TS]

01:37:09   is it seems like it might be cute or [TS]

01:37:12   helpful or something and trust me it's [TS]

01:37:14   not at all like it you have to be so [TS]

01:37:17   careful with that stuff that you know [TS]

01:37:19   and there is a there is an additional [TS]

01:37:20   dollar by the way that says your [TS]

01:37:22   computer was restarted because of a [TS]

01:37:24   problem and then that one it says the [TS]

01:37:25   you know ignore more info and move to [TS]

01:37:30   trash for like an application they [TS]

01:37:32   crashed like we see that one when an app [TS]

01:37:34   crashes so there is one that is more [TS]

01:37:37   you know let's blame me but the fact [TS]

01:37:39   that there exists any dialog says you [TS]

01:37:41   shut down your computer because of a [TS]

01:37:42   problem but it's the dialogue that's [TS]

01:37:44   asking whether you want to restore all [TS]

01:37:46   the applications that were open so your [TS]

01:37:48   choices are please reopen everything [TS]

01:37:49   like it was before it canceled I'm sorry [TS]

01:37:53   what reopen everything please reopen [TS]

01:37:55   everything yeah I'm not a dialog box I [TS]

01:37:57   don't have to put that like the button [TS]

01:37:58   is not saying please the button says [TS]

01:38:01   open and the cancel button says no [TS]

01:38:02   thanks comma cancel oh I'm sorry it [TS]

01:38:04   doesn't say no thanks comma cancel it [TS]

01:38:05   says cancel because that's what cancel [TS]

01:38:06   button say on them I'm not a button on [TS]

01:38:09   person um yeah that's that's what it's [TS]

01:38:12   asking you and so again if it's asking [TS]

01:38:14   you that it means the entire thing [TS]

01:38:17   abruptly stopped functioning and it [TS]

01:38:19   realizes that abruptly stopped [TS]

01:38:20   functioning because it didn't do all [TS]

01:38:21   like the nice shutdown clean up stuff so [TS]

01:38:23   the next time it starts up it says I [TS]

01:38:24   don't see the nice shutdown clean up [TS]

01:38:25   stuff which means things ended abruptly [TS]

01:38:27   last time and I honestly don't think [TS]

01:38:30   there's any user action that you could [TS]

01:38:32   take other than if it knew somehow [TS]

01:38:34   because of cameras that you had yank the [TS]

01:38:36   cord out or flick the power switch the [TS]

01:38:38   hard yourself even if it sees you do it [TS]

01:38:41   it still shouldn't say that it's just [TS]

01:38:44   it's just setting you on fire [TS]

01:38:45   unnecessarily and how would it know it [TS]

01:38:47   was because of a problem maybe you shut [TS]

01:38:49   down your computer because you couldn't [TS]

01:38:51   figure out any other way like you know [TS]

01:38:52   you're you're in an experienced computer [TS]

01:38:55   user and the only way you know how to [TS]

01:38:56   turn it off is to hold down the power [TS]

01:38:57   button for five seconds [TS]

01:38:59   maybe you shut your computer as a [TS]

01:39:00   statement yeah because of a problem [TS]

01:39:03   wasn't a problem with your computer was [TS]

01:39:04   just like a problem in the world I think [TS]

01:39:08   you might be reading too much into this [TS]

01:39:10   I think what the way I've always read [TS]

01:39:11   this and why I haven't been perturbed by [TS]

01:39:14   it is because the computer well I guess [TS]

01:39:17   I can turn itself off but in this [TS]

01:39:19   scenario of a kernel panic it doesn't [TS]

01:39:20   turn itself off it is you that is [TS]

01:39:22   physically turning the computer off and [TS]

01:39:23   restarting it not always no default [TS]

01:39:27   every boot itself doesn't it doesn't [TS]

01:39:28   reboot it I didn't think it did I think [TS]

01:39:30   it does now I think that's been the case [TS]

01:39:32   for the last few years [TS]

01:39:33   oh no you're right you know press a key [TS]

01:39:34   you're wait a few seconds to continue [TS]

01:39:35   starting oh no I guess you're right I [TS]

01:39:37   guess you're right all I know is you [TS]

01:39:38   guys are clearly from the Northeast or [TS]

01:39:41   have lived there too long because you're [TS]

01:39:42   employed assholes moving on before you [TS]

01:39:47   move on like oh yeah and I want to [TS]

01:39:48   iterate it's not it's not about [TS]

01:39:49   politeness it's about the [TS]

01:39:50   there are conventions for the user [TS]

01:39:52   interface and anything that deviates the [TS]

01:39:53   convention it's like whatever bill maybe [TS]

01:39:55   things work like anything that deviates [TS]

01:39:57   from the convention requires thinking [TS]

01:39:59   and processing time and it's it's [TS]

01:40:01   cognitive load for no benefit unless [TS]

01:40:04   there is actual benefit of the [TS]

01:40:05   personality application otherwise every [TS]

01:40:07   time we look at dialogue we'd have to [TS]

01:40:09   parse each person's you know politeness [TS]

01:40:12   and phrasing and preambles stuff when we [TS]

01:40:14   just want okay cancel or you know [TS]

01:40:16   there's some standard buttons that say [TS]

01:40:17   standard things that fit in a standard [TS]

01:40:18   amount of space and we don't want to [TS]

01:40:20   have to read them I actually do [TS]

01:40:21   completely agree with you on that [TS]

01:40:22   Chadd supports key rights when it comes [TS]

01:40:24   to video games how much of a [TS]

01:40:26   completionist eve each of you consider [TS]

01:40:27   yourselves to be how much does it depend [TS]

01:40:29   on the type of game scope of the game [TS]

01:40:30   and your level of interest in it I will [TS]

01:40:32   start by saying I am not at all a [TS]

01:40:34   completionist and obviously I am I think [TS]

01:40:37   mark when I fight over who is the least [TS]

01:40:38   video game II person of the three of us [TS]

01:40:41   but but I I do play video games from [TS]

01:40:44   time to time as I think we mentioned [TS]

01:40:45   last week the week before I've been [TS]

01:40:47   getting back into breath of the wild but [TS]

01:40:49   there whenever it is I beat Ganon at the [TS]

01:40:52   end of breath of the wild if I don't [TS]

01:40:53   have all 120 whatever it is shrines and [TS]

01:40:56   if I don't have all 80 gazillion Quora [TS]

01:40:58   Corki rock or whatever they're called [TS]

01:41:00   seeds I am NOT gonna care I will be [TS]

01:41:02   putting that game down and probably [TS]

01:41:03   never playing it again and that's just [TS]

01:41:05   me Marco since you are all so useless [TS]

01:41:07   like me how do you treat this kind of in [TS]

01:41:10   between you and a normal person I will [TS]

01:41:14   try to be fairly complete as I'm playing [TS]

01:41:17   but then I will usually reach a point at [TS]

01:41:19   which my interest just Falls you know [TS]

01:41:22   for a game that that can be quote beaten [TS]

01:41:25   or that has like a main storyline that [TS]

01:41:26   can be completed I do really want to [TS]

01:41:28   compete that main storyline but like you [TS]

01:41:30   I you know once I and on my way there I [TS]

01:41:33   might be you know collecting as much as [TS]

01:41:36   I possibly can like true like like like [TS]

01:41:38   when playing mario odyssey i [TS]

01:41:40   I really tried to get as many of the [TS]

01:41:43   moons as possible like yeah you know as [TS]

01:41:45   I'm going through each world [TS]

01:41:46   I don't just fly away as soon as I can [TS]

01:41:48   but then after you complete the main [TS]

01:41:51   storyline you can go back and get a [TS]

01:41:52   whole bunch more and I started doing [TS]

01:41:54   that and I just haven't really continued [TS]

01:41:55   yet and and I I intend to go back and [TS]

01:41:58   play it I don't know when I will exactly [TS]

01:42:01   cuz now I'm up I'm playing other games [TS]

01:42:03   I don't know when I actually will but I [TS]

01:42:05   do intend to still go back and do that I [TS]

01:42:07   don't stop because I like decide I'm [TS]

01:42:12   done with this game forever it just kind [TS]

01:42:14   of happens like like stardew valley I [TS]

01:42:16   plates already Valley very heavily for a [TS]

01:42:18   long time and I intend to go back to it [TS]

01:42:22   but the last time I played it was [TS]

01:42:23   probably three months ago you know and I [TS]

01:42:25   just haven't gone back to it yet but I [TS]

01:42:27   do intend to I haven't had a kid yet I [TS]

01:42:29   want to see you how that works so like [TS]

01:42:30   you know I you know there's more I want [TS]

01:42:32   to do in that game but like once I reach [TS]

01:42:34   a certain point where I feel like I've [TS]

01:42:36   done mostly everything there is to do I [TS]

01:42:39   find it hard to motivate myself to go [TS]

01:42:41   back and get like the last 10% you did [TS]

01:42:45   have an actual kid what you mean is a [TS]

01:42:46   pixelated kid yes all right just just to [TS]

01:42:50   make that clear like I had a kid yet in [TS]

01:42:53   stardew valley the game I was talking [TS]

01:42:54   about during that sentence I just named [TS]

01:42:57   the context freely where's Adam he's [TS]

01:42:59   upstairs asleep so this this question [TS]

01:43:03   doesn't really define what completionist [TS]

01:43:05   means but I'm kind of with Marco and [TS]

01:43:07   that like there's there's two strains oh [TS]

01:43:09   I like Marco if I'm playing a narrative [TS]

01:43:12   game that is trying to tell me a story [TS]

01:43:13   and if I like the game well enough like [TS]

01:43:17   you know that like I'm having fun [TS]

01:43:19   playing it I do want to see how that [TS]

01:43:21   story turns out but the modern practice [TS]

01:43:25   of video games of basically said [TS]

01:43:27   providing a tremendous amount of things [TS]

01:43:31   to do outside the main story means that [TS]

01:43:34   for me to actually 100% clear game by [TS]

01:43:37   getting all the things that you can get [TS]

01:43:39   and doing all the things that you can do [TS]

01:43:40   has actually become a lot harder over [TS]

01:43:42   the years both in terms of time [TS]

01:43:43   investment and skill it used to be that [TS]

01:43:46   if you finish a story then there'd be a [TS]

01:43:47   couple of ancillary things to do but [TS]

01:43:48   Mario Odyssey is like this story is like [TS]

01:43:50   one-eighth of the game and then like if [TS]

01:43:52   you really wanted to complete it in [TS]

01:43:54   terms of hours spent and effort required [TS]

01:43:55   the real game begins after you finish [TS]

01:43:58   the story mode so I did finish the story [TS]

01:44:00   mode of Mariotti [TS]

01:44:01   and I did enjoy it and I do like the [TS]

01:44:03   fact that there's a lot more after that [TS]

01:44:04   and then you can do it kind of in any [TS]

01:44:05   order that you want but I don't think I [TS]

01:44:07   will 100% clear Mario does he ever [TS]

01:44:10   contrast that with mario sunshine which [TS]

01:44:12   was not as good at Mario game but any [TS]

01:44:14   stretch of the imagination is Odyssey [TS]

01:44:15   and yet [TS]

01:44:16   under percent cleared sunshine because [TS]

01:44:18   the amount of stuff that you had to do [TS]

01:44:20   beyond the main story in sunshine seems [TS]

01:44:22   so much more tractable to me and because [TS]

01:44:25   the things they had you doing we're like [TS]

01:44:26   one annoying collection quest and a [TS]

01:44:29   bunch of levels that were hard but of [TS]

01:44:31   the variety that they'd already had that [TS]

01:44:33   I really enjoyed and so it seemed like a [TS]

01:44:35   thing that I could do and lo and behold [TS]

01:44:36   I did do it [TS]

01:44:38   similarly with Zelda games uh you know I [TS]

01:44:42   will always finish the story enemies [TS]

01:44:43   Elda game i love zelda games 100% [TS]

01:44:45   cleared a couple of Zelda's but not all [TS]

01:44:47   of them because some yeah especially as [TS]

01:44:49   time goes on when I start adding even [TS]

01:44:51   more and more collect it was like I'm [TS]

01:44:52   never gonna get all the coal Rock seeds [TS]

01:44:53   and in breath of the wild I won't I just [TS]

01:44:56   it's never gonna happen right but I [TS]

01:44:57   probably will do eventually all the [TS]

01:44:59   shrines and that's kind of and that's [TS]

01:45:01   that's a game that I love it's not a [TS]

01:45:03   game that I love I'll do the story and I [TS]

01:45:05   feel like it done with it what if the [TS]

01:45:06   game has no story the game has no story [TS]

01:45:08   I just play it when it's fun and it [TS]

01:45:09   stops being fun I'll stop playing it [TS]

01:45:10   like I I feel like I will actually [TS]

01:45:12   continue to play a game after it stops [TS]

01:45:14   being fun to her I'm really close to the [TS]

01:45:15   end of a narrative story just because I [TS]

01:45:17   want to see how it ends that's kind of [TS]

01:45:18   true like movies and books too we [TS]

01:45:19   sometimes you're like well I'm invested [TS]

01:45:22   and I know there's only three chapters [TS]

01:45:24   left and even those books kind of [TS]

01:45:25   knowing me I still want to see how it [TS]

01:45:27   ends and so you'll power your way [TS]

01:45:28   through so that's that's kind of my take [TS]

01:45:29   on completion ISM anybody games thanks [TS]

01:45:32   to our sponsors this week aftershocks [TS]

01:45:34   Backblaze and jammed now and we'll talk [TS]

01:45:36   to you next week now the show is over [TS]

01:45:42   they didn't even mean to begin as it was [TS]

01:45:45   accidental oh it was accidental [TS]

01:45:51   Johnny research Marco and Casey wouldn't [TS]

01:45:54   let him cuz it was accidentally was [TS]

01:45:59   accidental and you can find the show [TS]

01:46:02   notes at ADP FM and if you're into [TS]

01:46:07   Twitter you can follow them [TS]

01:46:11   CAS URL is s so that's Casey less ma RC [TS]

01:46:17   o AR m auntie Marco Arment SI r AC [TS]

01:46:25   Syracuse [TS]

01:46:39   Casey you're back at work now yeah tell [TS]

01:46:42   us about that so you're you're full-time [TS]

01:46:44   back now brightly no that's normal [TS]

01:46:46   no no no no I'm spending the month of [TS]

01:46:50   March easing my way in so as we record [TS]

01:46:53   this last week I did a sum total of one [TS]

01:46:56   day of work and I did two half days [TS]

01:46:59   which basically means I went in when [TS]

01:47:00   Declan was a preschool and then this [TS]

01:47:03   week I did full-day Tuesday but only [TS]

01:47:07   half of it at work I did the rest from [TS]

01:47:09   home so you can guess where this is [TS]

01:47:11   going I went to work when Declan was a [TS]

01:47:13   preschool then I came home and was here [TS]

01:47:14   working on my iMac for the remainder of [TS]

01:47:17   the day and then tomorrow I am doing [TS]

01:47:21   sort of kind of the same we have an [TS]

01:47:23   appointment to get Mikayla's passport [TS]

01:47:25   for some events that are happening in a [TS]

01:47:27   couple of months that I believe I'll be [TS]

01:47:29   seeing both of you at so we need to get [TS]

01:47:31   that squared away but this week I'm [TS]

01:47:34   doing two days next week I'm doing three [TS]

01:47:35   whole days and I think the week after [TS]

01:47:37   that I'm actually ramped up to full-time [TS]

01:47:39   now I might be doing some of that from [TS]

01:47:40   home here and there which is not what I [TS]

01:47:42   usually did I usually pretty much only [TS]

01:47:44   worked in the office but it's a week [TS]

01:47:47   after next that I will be a real real [TS]

01:47:50   adult worker again and it's going fine [TS]

01:47:53   it's a pretty understanding job letting [TS]

01:47:55   you ease back into it I've never even [TS]

01:47:57   heard of a company doing that this is [TS]

01:47:58   the second time yeah like the last time [TS]

01:48:00   I took less time easing my way into it [TS]

01:48:03   and I also didn't take an unpaid leave [TS]

01:48:04   but they were fairly cool about it both [TS]

01:48:07   both the last job and this job so that's [TS]

01:48:09   good [TS]

01:48:10   that's pretty cool yeah that's I don't [TS]

01:48:13   think I've ever had a job that would [TS]

01:48:14   give me that usually and most of my jobs [TS]

01:48:17   I had trouble of taking vacation days [TS]

01:48:19   let alone like doing this yeah I mean [TS]

01:48:22   and to be fair I didn't as much asked is [TS]

01:48:24   said this is what I was planning to do [TS]

01:48:26   and waited for somebody to say no and [TS]

01:48:28   nobody said no and that that's been nice [TS]

01:48:31   and I mean the place I work it's it's [TS]

01:48:33   pretty no I was gonna say chill but I [TS]

01:48:35   sound like a tool I don't know it's very [TS]

01:48:38   relaxed and and it's I think in part [TS]

01:48:41   because it's not consulting like most of [TS]

01:48:43   the last few jobs I've had [TS]

01:48:45   there's a lot less urgency and it's kind [TS]

01:48:48   of okay if I'm gone that being said you [TS]

01:48:51   know my I'm easing back in terms of [TS]

01:48:53   hours worked I am not easing back in [TS]

01:48:55   terms of stress level and need for me to [TS]

01:48:58   be paying attention to things again the [TS]

01:49:02   staff that I work with is excellent but [TS]

01:49:04   at least on the iOS side but is very [TS]

01:49:07   young and that's not a bad thing at all [TS]

01:49:09   but that means that they've kind of been [TS]

01:49:12   queuing up a whole band a whole bunch of [TS]

01:49:14   questions to ask and and how do I do [TS]

01:49:16   this what should we do here what are we [TS]

01:49:18   gonna do about this other thing and and [TS]

01:49:21   so I have been in high demand in the [TS]

01:49:24   little bit of time I've been working [TS]

01:49:25   which is a good problem the elementary [TS]

01:49:27   school students what the hell is very [TS]

01:49:28   young man when you're one is one is she [TS]

01:49:32   started as an intern and is still in [TS]

01:49:34   school in his part-time so she is what [TS]

01:49:36   major version of pearl were they born [TS]

01:49:38   during it so are you at the stage now or [TS]

01:49:43   anyone in their twenties counts is very [TS]

01:49:44   young getting there I mean my birthday [TS]

01:49:47   Saturday for goodness sakes I'm turning [TS]

01:49:49   I'm getting old John gettin old hey I'll [TS]

01:49:51   be that old in a couple more months so [TS]

01:49:53   the 29 year olds at work are very young [TS]

01:49:56   no no one of the intern just turned 21 [TS]

01:49:59   at the end of last year she she was born [TS]

01:50:01   in 96 I guess which is bananas oh my god [TS]

01:50:05   she's younger than Weezer [TS]

01:50:06   yeah so so yeah so the the intern who is [TS]

01:50:12   now part-time was born in 96 and we just [TS]

01:50:14   hired a guy who I don't know how old he [TS]

01:50:18   is but I would guess 25 or less so and [TS]

01:50:22   that's that's the whole staff as me and [TS]

01:50:24   in these - well the whole i/os staff [TS]

01:50:26   that is it so it's me in these other two [TS]

01:50:28   so and they're great they really are [TS]

01:50:32   great and I'm really really lucky to [TS]

01:50:34   have them as my co-workers but they're [TS]

01:50:36   they're young and that's not a bad thing [TS]

01:50:37   it's just you know is the there are [TS]

01:50:40   things that you only get from being in [TS]

01:50:42   the trenches in any sort of code base B [TS]

01:50:45   it iOS or otherwise for a long time and [TS]

01:50:47   so I am the old man in every measurable [TS]

01:50:50   way and and that's just my life I need [TS]

01:50:53   to adjust you so here's a question do [TS]

01:50:55   you have anybody yet who is either so [TS]

01:50:58   young [TS]

01:50:58   or just so new to iOS programming that [TS]

01:51:02   they have no objective-c experience that [TS]

01:51:05   the only has 50 experience I'm trying to [TS]

01:51:07   think if the if the part-time person did [TS]

01:51:11   I think she had done some Objective C in [TS]

01:51:14   the past if I'm not mistaken but it was [TS]

01:51:15   a toss-up cuz I almost wonder like that [TS]

01:51:17   might make things easier right like if [TS]

01:51:19   you had if you if you have like if you [TS]

01:51:20   try to maintain an all Swift code base [TS]

01:51:22   or mostly Swift code base and you have [TS]

01:51:24   somebody who doesn't have any mental [TS]

01:51:27   baggage of Objective C that actually [TS]

01:51:29   might be a good thing right [TS]

01:51:30   I don't know I I totally understand [TS]

01:51:33   where you're coming from and I'm not at [TS]

01:51:35   all saying you're wrong I really don't [TS]

01:51:37   know because it's one of those things [TS]

01:51:38   like do you really need to understand [TS]

01:51:42   what a pointer is to be able to write [TS]

01:51:44   code today and I know you're both [TS]

01:51:45   probably gonna jump all over me but like [TS]

01:51:47   if you think about it on a surface level [TS]

01:51:49   in a lot of cases you don't really need [TS]

01:51:52   to know what a pointer is now I I [TS]

01:51:54   strongly believe that you do so that's [TS]

01:51:57   all I'm like um I'm presenting an [TS]

01:51:58   argument I don't actually believe in but [TS]

01:52:00   you could make an argument that you know [TS]

01:52:02   you don't totally need a pointer to [TS]

01:52:04   understand what what the concept of a [TS]

01:52:06   pointer is in order to be able to write [TS]

01:52:07   Swift yeah I would totally argue that [TS]

01:52:10   actually yeah and and I still think it's [TS]

01:52:12   important to understand what a pointer [TS]

01:52:14   is it's important to understand these [TS]

01:52:16   sorts of things and I think to some [TS]

01:52:18   degree you get a lot more of that from [TS]

01:52:20   objective-c and not only because you [TS]

01:52:21   have stupid asterisks everywhere but [TS]

01:52:24   what I'm what a meandering toward is I [TS]

01:52:26   think having an understanding of what [TS]

01:52:29   makes Objective C Objective C helps you [TS]

01:52:31   understand what makes cocoa and cocoa [TS]

01:52:33   touch cocoa into cocoa touch does that [TS]

01:52:36   make any sense at all yeah I can see [TS]

01:52:38   that although I I would also suggest [TS]

01:52:40   that like like I mean in my time working [TS]

01:52:43   around other programmers I was fortunate [TS]

01:52:46   enough that to usually work around [TS]

01:52:48   really smart people but not a hundred [TS]

01:52:51   percent of the time and and I was always [TS]

01:52:53   sometimes really surprised how little [TS]

01:52:57   somebody could know about programming [TS]

01:52:59   and be working full-time as a programmer [TS]

01:53:01   oh yeah and I think and I'm not saying [TS]

01:53:03   this till I say like oh they're so dumb [TS]

01:53:05   like that just there are a lot of [TS]

01:53:08   programming jobs out there [TS]

01:53:11   that are pretty forgiving of having a [TS]

01:53:13   very shallow understanding of it or [TS]

01:53:15   pretty forgiving of bad coding or [TS]

01:53:17   mistakes or a leaking memory or things [TS]

01:53:19   like that Len and iOS is a huge sample [TS]

01:53:21   that like you know the when the App [TS]

01:53:22   Store was this huge explosion gold rush [TS]

01:53:25   thing back you know ten years ago and [TS]

01:53:28   you know in the interviewing year since [TS]

01:53:29   like a lot of people learned objective-c [TS]

01:53:33   just enough to get an app out there and [TS]

01:53:36   just like kind of stumbling through and [TS]

01:53:38   I mean heck that was basically me when I [TS]

01:53:40   first started to and I mean I had to see [TS]

01:53:42   background so I knew I knew that kind of [TS]

01:53:43   stuff but like there was a lot of people [TS]

01:53:46   who start knowing a lot less and can get [TS]

01:53:48   an app in the store because if they [TS]

01:53:50   leave memory all over the place it [TS]

01:53:52   doesn't matter at the scale they are or [TS]

01:53:54   like you know like if their app gets [TS]

01:53:55   kicked out of the background cuz it [TS]

01:53:56   crashes in the background you don't even [TS]

01:53:58   notice you launch it again and there it [TS]

01:53:59   is especially it's actually yeah it's [TS]

01:54:02   actually a fairly forgiving environment [TS]

01:54:05   and and the tools now protect you so [TS]

01:54:09   much from doing things that are too [TS]

01:54:10   horrible that you can actually get by [TS]

01:54:13   pretty far without having knowledge of [TS]

01:54:16   things like pointers and memory and [TS]

01:54:17   stuff like that yeah so and it's also [TS]

01:54:20   you know to some degree like what what [TS]

01:54:22   level are you hiring right like when we [TS]

01:54:24   hired our newest developer you know we [TS]

01:54:27   were hiring somebody we were intending [TS]

01:54:29   to hire someone that was a bit junior [TS]

01:54:31   and and so I don't recall how this went [TS]

01:54:34   during his interview I did interview him [TS]

01:54:36   but like I [TS]

01:54:37   I'm sure asked him you know what's a [TS]

01:54:38   retain cycle how do you create it why [TS]

01:54:40   would you well how would you [TS]

01:54:41   accidentally create it and you know how [TS]

01:54:42   would you find it how would you fix it [TS]

01:54:44   and if I'm hiring a junior developer [TS]

01:54:47   they can get that wrong and I [TS]

01:54:48   potentially would be okay with it like [TS]

01:54:51   you know I would hope that they would at [TS]

01:54:52   least somewhat understand what I'm [TS]

01:54:53   talking about but they can have a wrong [TS]

01:54:56   answer and as long as they have a vague [TS]

01:54:57   understanding and I feel like they're [TS]

01:54:59   coachable and which is a very corporate [TS]

01:55:01   thing to say well yeah exactly we can [TS]

01:55:05   have a coaching opportunity in the [TS]

01:55:06   parking lot after we stand up all right [TS]

01:55:08   you say you have worked with me you see [TS]

01:55:13   what I'm driving at like I I don't think [TS]

01:55:15   that that beings I'm agreeing with you [TS]

01:55:18   and roundabout way you know I don't [TS]

01:55:19   think being super experienced and having [TS]

01:55:21   a deep deep deep knowledge of like the [TS]

01:55:23   history of objective-c and [TS]

01:55:24   and why is message-passing different [TS]

01:55:26   than calling a method you know why is [TS]

01:55:29   well I don't think you need all of that [TS]

01:55:30   but I do know it is fair enough but I do [TS]

01:55:34   think it is assistive in understanding [TS]

01:55:36   like I said earlier you know what makes [TS]

01:55:38   what makes Coco the way it is it's [TS]

01:55:40   because it's it's in large ways because [TS]

01:55:43   of what made Objective C what it is and [TS]

01:55:45   I don't I don't think it's necessary [TS]

01:55:49   what is the thing that's it's necessary [TS]

01:55:52   but not sufficient provided I screwed [TS]

01:55:53   that up didn't I sufficient but not [TS]

01:55:54   necessary you get what I'm driving at is [TS]

01:55:55   it sufficient but not necessary [TS]

01:55:57   that's what Johnson always says yeah [TS]

01:55:58   totally but anyway so the point is that [TS]

01:56:03   you know it's it's useful to have but [TS]

01:56:04   would not require John given very quiet [TS]

01:56:07   any thoughts about this this is a [TS]

01:56:09   specific instance of the more general [TS]

01:56:13   question of whether not whether you [TS]

01:56:17   should have but what the value is of [TS]

01:56:19   having a background in the fundamentals [TS]

01:56:22   when it comes to the everyday craft of [TS]

01:56:25   doing a thing like so can I do a [TS]

01:56:28   particular task without knowing the [TS]

01:56:33   history cultural baggage and all the [TS]

01:56:36   other lower levels of abstraction that [TS]

01:56:38   I'm building upon the answer is yes you [TS]

01:56:39   can you can be a craftsman at a higher [TS]

01:56:41   level of abstraction without knowledge [TS]

01:56:43   of detailed knowledge of history and [TS]

01:56:45   culture and all the lower layers but [TS]

01:56:48   there is most certainly value in knowing [TS]

01:56:52   all that stuff I mean you could take it [TS]

01:56:53   just auto mechanic right there's lots of [TS]

01:56:55   things that you can be trained to do to [TS]

01:56:56   a car without knowing the details of the [TS]

01:56:59   levels of abstraction that you're not [TS]

01:57:01   dealing with without knowing the history [TS]

01:57:03   of internal combustion engines [TS]

01:57:05   particularly the history of the features [TS]

01:57:07   of the internal combustion engine for a [TS]

01:57:08   particular make of car you don't need [TS]

01:57:10   that background to be really good at [TS]

01:57:12   doing the brakes changing the oil even [TS]

01:57:16   disassembling and reassembling a [TS]

01:57:17   particular model of engine if you know [TS]

01:57:19   how to do that at that level you're fine [TS]

01:57:21   there you know but you know so the gave [TS]

01:57:23   a computer programming the question is [TS]

01:57:25   do I need a computer science background [TS]

01:57:26   and a knowledge of algorithms data [TS]

01:57:29   structures electrical engineering [TS]

01:57:31   circuit design basics of electronics [TS]

01:57:34   like so you need to have all that to [TS]

01:57:36   write an IRS [TS]

01:57:37   hell no you do not but having that [TS]

01:57:40   background is valuable and makes you [TS]

01:57:43   better at the job of writing an iOS [TS]

01:57:45   application particularly when as [TS]

01:57:47   inevitably happens things go wrong and [TS]

01:57:50   you have to figure out why they're going [TS]

01:57:52   wrong [TS]

01:57:52   that's when whatever level of [TS]

01:57:54   abstraction you're working at starts to [TS]

01:57:55   fall apart and you find yourself looking [TS]

01:57:57   at memory addresses in a debugger [TS]

01:57:59   assuming you even know enough to [TS]

01:58:01   navigate a debugger and if you don't [TS]

01:58:03   know what a pointer is it just feels [TS]

01:58:05   like gibberish and it feels you feel [TS]

01:58:07   lost right but if you understand all [TS]

01:58:09   those lower levels you can drop down a [TS]

01:58:11   level and drop down a little further and [TS]

01:58:13   like and if you're really good to know [TS]

01:58:14   the whole stack in your omigosh type [TS]

01:58:16   person you can look at machine code and [TS]

01:58:18   figure out what the hell's going on [TS]

01:58:19   right and even if you're not though even [TS]

01:58:22   if you're not like someone who really [TS]

01:58:23   can navigate the whole stack just [TS]

01:58:25   knowing how in general computers work [TS]

01:58:27   from top to bottom lets you understand [TS]

01:58:30   at least what parts you don't know and [TS]

01:58:32   where you might go to look up something [TS]

01:58:33   and to understand I know what I'm [TS]

01:58:35   looking at here I just don't know [TS]

01:58:37   specifically what it says but I [TS]

01:58:38   understand where it came from and I [TS]

01:58:40   understand if there's a part of it that [TS]

01:58:41   I need to figure out I know where to [TS]

01:58:44   look for it or you know and all the way [TS]

01:58:46   down to like hopefully none of us get [TS]

01:58:47   down to the hardware level or you got to [TS]

01:58:48   figure out what what's wrong at the [TS]

01:58:50   hardware level but I still feel like [TS]

01:58:51   even that which probably won't come up [TS]

01:58:53   in debugging a program is useful to know [TS]

01:58:55   because it explains many of the features [TS]

01:58:57   higher up just as you were saying [TS]

01:58:58   knowing about objective-c explains a lot [TS]

01:59:01   of the weird features of Swift like if [TS]

01:59:03   you don't know about objective-c it may [TS]

01:59:04   be seem weird that that Swift has these [TS]

01:59:06   things and what the hell is a table C [TS]

01:59:08   mean and why is that even there and what [TS]

01:59:10   is it what do you mean by an object [TS]

01:59:12   being backed by the objective-c runtime [TS]

01:59:14   versus one that isn't and like what is [TS]

01:59:16   that you know you can get by without it [TS]

01:59:18   but there is most certainly value for it [TS]

01:59:21   and I think the question when people ask [TS]

01:59:22   about this whether it's should it have [TS]

01:59:23   to know pointers are doing you have to [TS]

01:59:24   have a computer science background is [TS]

01:59:26   they want to know if it's like a gating [TS]

01:59:28   factor and I don't think it is I think [TS]

01:59:29   you can actually be a successful a good [TS]

01:59:31   programmer but I think all that [TS]

01:59:33   background that you're like do I have to [TS]

01:59:35   know this there is value for it it's [TS]

01:59:37   just a question of how much value does [TS]

01:59:39   it have for the thing that you are doing [TS]

01:59:40   if you are working at Apple and [TS]

01:59:43   frameworks it's probably more important [TS]

01:59:45   than you have [TS]

01:59:46   background if you're working it up on [TS]

01:59:47   the compiler team yet more important if [TS]

01:59:50   you are designing a hardware and [TS]

01:59:51   software system from top to bottom [TS]

01:59:52   really really important so you just kind [TS]

01:59:55   of have to decide how much how much of [TS]

01:59:59   the [TS]

01:59:59   the [TS]

00:00:00   as we've already discussed I have my [TS]

00:00:01   paneled setup of Windows and in the one [TS]

00:00:05   accent come from it's not a Connecticut [TS]

00:00:07   thing I wasn't aware I had one the word [TS]

00:00:09   the word for the thing you cook in and [TS]

00:00:12   the first syllable for your intrument of [TS]

00:00:14   windows PA ne l vs. PA in Tamil right [TS]

00:00:18   what how do you pronounce it not the [TS]

00:00:21   same way as the as the thing that you [TS]

00:00:23   cooking he says panel yeah exactly [TS]

00:00:25   what do you cook in a pan oh not a pan i [TS]

00:00:31   I'm you say them both the same you say I [TS]

00:00:34   cook in a pan and I have a bunch of [TS]

00:00:36   panels yeah so how would you say it I [TS]

00:00:38   cook in a pan I have a bunch of panels [TS]

00:00:39   that sounded these are you trolling [TS]

00:00:42   sounded exactly the same analyze the [TS]

00:00:45   waveforms and panels pan panels Marco [TS]

00:00:51   you said what do you have I cook in a [TS]

00:00:55   pan yeah and I have panels mmm [TS]

00:00:58   interesting middle ground they're [TS]

00:00:59   slightly different from each other I [TS]

00:01:01   don't understand what it's just what [TS]

00:01:07   being colorblind feels like all right so [TS]

00:01:14   we talked a lot last week about [TS]

00:01:16   onboarding screens and why they're there [TS]

00:01:19   what is their purpose whether they're [TS]

00:01:20   good whether they're bad etc and I was [TS]

00:01:23   informed that the reason that these [TS]

00:01:26   screens are happening is because of gdpr [TS]

00:01:30   which I know almost nothing about and [TS]

00:01:33   I've been a little busy and so I am a [TS]

00:01:34   poor chief summarizer in chief but [TS]

00:01:36   nevertheless GPG DPR is a general data [TS]

00:01:41   protection regulation which is something [TS]

00:01:43   that the EU passed recently and has come [TS]

00:01:45   into effect or is coming into effect [TS]

00:01:47   very very very soon it becomes [TS]

00:01:48   enforceable from the 25th of May 2018 so [TS]

00:01:51   we are coming up on it now I guess this [TS]

00:01:54   doesn't apply to Britain too soon anyway [TS]

00:01:56   the point is Faline is sorry everybody [TS]

00:02:00   the point is apparently it's it talks [TS]

00:02:02   about how companies store your data and [TS]

00:02:05   tries to give you more control of your [TS]

00:02:07   data and I've been told that that is the [TS]

00:02:10   genesis of all of these onboarding [TS]

00:02:11   screens [TS]

00:02:13   sure if I buy that because I bet that [TS]

00:02:15   screen is gonna be everywhere not just [TS]

00:02:16   in Europe and it's not like Apple is [TS]

00:02:18   above doing a region-specific you eyes I [TS]

00:02:20   do a bunch of stuff I think it's only [TS]

00:02:22   visible in China for instance [TS]

00:02:23   interesting maybe yeah on the other hand [TS]

00:02:26   I feel like this gdpr thing which I'm [TS]

00:02:29   basically just learning about now [TS]

00:02:30   because I didn't actually follow your [TS]

00:02:31   link in the show notes [TS]

00:02:31   reminds me of the European cookie [TS]

00:02:34   regulation stuff do you remember that oh [TS]

00:02:36   yeah remember I think it's throne effect [TS]

00:02:37   like if you go to they got a throw up a [TS]

00:02:40   pop-up it says just so you know this [TS]

00:02:42   website is gonna you know use cookies to [TS]

00:02:43   keep track of you agree or disagree [TS]

00:02:45   right there's another example of [TS]

00:02:48   properly motivated but ill-conceived [TS]

00:02:51   legislation where the motivation is pure [TS]

00:02:54   like there's these computers and they [TS]

00:02:56   potentially could be storing us personal [TS]

00:02:58   information and tracking us which by the [TS]

00:02:59   way they totally do let's do something [TS]

00:03:02   with the law to deal with that but this [TS]

00:03:06   you know the impulse to do this comes [TS]

00:03:08   really early on in the history of the [TS]

00:03:10   web when the scariest thing out there is [TS]

00:03:11   a cookie right and the legislation is I [TS]

00:03:15   know let's make every website in the [TS]

00:03:17   world annoying forever [TS]

00:03:18   and let's never do anything else related [TS]

00:03:21   to other kinds of tracking that'll be [TS]

00:03:22   much much worse than cookies and you [TS]

00:03:25   know like so many other laws like it [TS]

00:03:26   just sits there until someone you know [TS]

00:03:28   who's gonna have the motivation say you [TS]

00:03:29   know we should stop doing that because [TS]

00:03:30   it's dumb or like we should realize the [TS]

00:03:34   folly of this particular technique of [TS]

00:03:36   trying to get people to grapple with [TS]

00:03:38   privacy because if you if you say this [TS]

00:03:42   is the this is the way we should deal [TS]

00:03:43   with everything then you gotta have [TS]

00:03:44   stuff like that for all forms of [TS]

00:03:46   JavaScript every kind of local storage [TS]

00:03:48   all the flash based super cookie [TS]

00:03:50   whatever thing it just it never ends and [TS]

00:03:52   you know you'd have to plow through 50 [TS]

00:03:54   layers of click-wrap as they call it to [TS]

00:03:57   get to the website that you want so if [TS]

00:04:01   there's some new kind of legislation [TS]

00:04:03   says by the way every time you launch an [TS]

00:04:04   application go throw a thing in someone [TS]

00:04:05   sites which I don't think that's what [TS]

00:04:06   this gdpr thing says but if there were [TS]

00:04:08   such a thing I think that would be sort [TS]

00:04:10   of the modern equivalent of the cookie [TS]

00:04:13   legislation perhaps motivated by a noble [TS]

00:04:18   intent but ill-conceived badly [TS]

00:04:21   implemented and sure to age [TS]

00:04:24   so we'll say maybe when these things [TS]

00:04:27   roll out and Apple talks about them on [TS]

00:04:29   stage maybe they will make it pitch in [TS]

00:04:31   that direction but as far as I can tell [TS]

00:04:33   it looks a lot more like what we talked [TS]

00:04:35   about last show a way for Apple to [TS]

00:04:37   advertise one of its competitive [TS]

00:04:38   advantages and to provide some [TS]

00:04:40   reassurance and to explain what the [TS]

00:04:41   applications do in a more clear way than [TS]

00:04:44   just showing a nebulous view yeah we'll [TS]

00:04:47   see but supposedly that is that is kind [TS]

00:04:50   of the genesis for this there's also [TS]

00:04:51   going to be a link in the show notes [TS]

00:04:52   Smashing Magazine has how gdpr will [TS]

00:04:56   change the way you develop which talks [TS]

00:04:59   about you know kind of how how all this [TS]

00:05:01   will affect developers and the rumblings [TS]

00:05:04   I've heard through various sources is [TS]

00:05:06   that this is a bigger deal than any of [TS]

00:05:07   us Americans are realizing because it [TS]

00:05:10   doesn't seem to apply to us but it [TS]

00:05:12   applies to any of us that have you know [TS]

00:05:15   code that reaches more than one country [TS]

00:05:16   in more than just America so and by the [TS]

00:05:18   way I think it is possible to make good [TS]

00:05:20   legislation to protect consumers privacy [TS]

00:05:22   it's just really hard to do when it [TS]

00:05:23   comes to tech because you know the [TS]

00:05:26   tendency is to pick whatever the [TS]

00:05:28   specifics of the technology are at the [TS]

00:05:30   moment and attack them and demonize them [TS]

00:05:32   one really it's a much more general [TS]

00:05:34   concern and historically speaking [TS]

00:05:35   legislative bodies I had a good track [TS]

00:05:37   record with legislating technology [TS]

00:05:41   essentially like understanding what the [TS]

00:05:42   underlying issue is rather than [TS]

00:05:44   attacking a specific technology as the [TS]

00:05:46   one and only vehicle through which this [TS]

00:05:49   issue will manifest and that's never [TS]

00:05:51   true like maybe that you know cookies [TS]

00:05:53   were how privacy manifested a long long [TS]

00:05:54   time ago privacy issues manifest in the [TS]

00:05:58   following decades in so many more [TS]

00:06:00   important ways than cookies and yet the [TS]

00:06:02   legislation is just sits there staring [TS]

00:06:04   at cookies which is why you can't really [TS]

00:06:06   legislate too technical details you have [TS]

00:06:09   to figure out what it is that we're [TS]

00:06:11   really concerned about and make a law [TS]

00:06:12   such that it applies in a useful way to [TS]

00:06:15   any future technology but also at the [TS]

00:06:18   same time doesn't preclude future [TS]

00:06:20   technologies that may run afoul of the [TS]

00:06:22   letter of law if not the spirit making [TS]

00:06:24   laws is hard making laws about [TS]

00:06:25   technologies doubly hard one way to help [TS]

00:06:27   with this by the way I'm saying this [TS]

00:06:28   most from a u.s. perspective I have no [TS]

00:06:30   idea Europe is perhaps take the advice [TS]

00:06:33   and consultation of people who know [TS]

00:06:36   things about [TS]

00:06:36   technology a vested interest in one way [TS]

00:06:39   the other like kind of like talking to [TS]

00:06:41   mathematicians and cryptographic experts [TS]

00:06:43   when you when you make any laws related [TS]

00:06:44   to cryptography which the u.s. seems [TS]

00:06:46   completely incapable of doing or they [TS]

00:06:48   talk to them and ignore what they say [TS]

00:06:49   and said I think I'll listen to industry [TS]

00:06:52   lobbying groups instead they have all [TS]

00:06:53   the money so they must know what they're [TS]

00:06:54   talking about I mean to be fair like we [TS]

00:06:57   can't even agree that facts are facts [TS]

00:07:01   I'm thinking back to a you know more [TS]

00:07:04   naive time when we could simply just [TS]

00:07:07   complain about how technologically [TS]

00:07:09   illiterate our legislative bodies are [TS]

00:07:11   now we have much more pressing concerns [TS]

00:07:12   and now I'm sad thanks for that John [TS]

00:07:15   alright last week we talked about how if [TS]

00:07:19   you are a member of one or thirty slack [TS]

00:07:22   teams you can actually a little no in [TS]

00:07:25   fact you can access slack via IRC [TS]

00:07:27   I don't know when this announcement [TS]

00:07:29   actually happened but as it turns out we [TS]

00:07:32   got word within moments of releasing the [TS]

00:07:35   episode that that's going away now [TS]

00:07:36   though it has been disabled for slack [TS]

00:07:39   teams that haven't enabled it and I [TS]

00:07:41   think it will be the it will be phased [TS]

00:07:43   out in the next some duration of time so [TS]

00:07:45   whoops [TS]

00:07:46   I'm not surprised by this because it it [TS]

00:07:50   totally seems like a thing that slack [TS]

00:07:52   might do early on as part of it let's [TS]

00:07:56   let's make sure you have no excuse not [TS]

00:07:57   to use slack right and then as slack [TS]

00:07:59   becomes more successful and as they can [TS]

00:08:01   compare the statistics of how many [TS]

00:08:03   people use our IRC gateway versus how [TS]

00:08:05   much does it take to maintain it versus [TS]

00:08:06   how much does it help our you know [TS]

00:08:08   strategic intent of the company it you [TS]

00:08:11   know it's probably used by a vanishingly [TS]

00:08:13   small percentage of slack's customers [TS]

00:08:15   they no longer are in that mode where [TS]

00:08:16   they need to convince people to use [TS]

00:08:17   slack because the ball started rolling [TS]

00:08:19   and it probably does take some amount to [TS]

00:08:21   maintain and it's just a distraction so [TS]

00:08:23   kind of make sure it makes sense that it [TS]

00:08:24   goes away but I bet if you use it you're [TS]

00:08:26   probably pretty annoyed by that indeed [TS]

00:08:28   so that happened coincidentally right [TS]

00:08:30   around the time we were bringing up on [TS]

00:08:31   the show its head hey you can do this [TS]

00:08:33   too [TS]

00:08:34   moving on Amazon's Alexa is gaining a [TS]

00:08:36   new follow up mode which no longer [TS]

00:08:38   requires a trigger word after every [TS]

00:08:40   request so what'll happen is Alexa will [TS]

00:08:42   listen for five seconds after your [TS]

00:08:44   previous request to see if you're [TS]

00:08:45   wanting to ask another question the blue [TS]

00:08:46   ring on your echo will remain lit and it [TS]

00:08:49   will indicate the cheese to listen [TS]

00:08:50   in this time period you can ask her [TS]

00:08:52   another question otherwise she'll go [TS]

00:08:54   back to sleep mode that's cool [TS]

00:08:56   see this to me this is it sounds cool [TS]

00:09:00   until you actually think about how that [TS]

00:09:02   works in practice and I think you can [TS]

00:09:04   actually label it now but the problem [TS]

00:09:06   with that is it's not addressing what [TS]

00:09:09   you actually want which is what you [TS]

00:09:10   actually want is to say cylinder play el [TS]

00:09:14   Scorcho by Weezer and turn the volume to [TS]

00:09:16   five you know like you want to be able [TS]

00:09:18   to do multiple commands in one sentence [TS]

00:09:20   or in one command and they can't do that [TS]

00:09:24   right now none of them can as far as I [TS]

00:09:25   know and that's what you actually want [TS]

00:09:27   what this feature does is hey cylinder [TS]

00:09:30   play Oh score sure by Weezer and then it [TS]

00:09:32   says okay and then it starts playing [TS]

00:09:36   like you don't want that like that is [TS]

00:09:40   not like I don't think it's stopping on [TS]

00:09:42   the command I think all it's doing is I [TS]

00:09:44   mean it's my reading of this article is [TS]

00:09:46   all it's doing is it will immediately [TS]

00:09:47   start playing the song that you asked [TS]

00:09:49   for but for the next five seconds [TS]

00:09:51   anything else you say will try to [TS]

00:09:53   interpret as a command as if you had pre [TS]

00:09:54   fixed it with a cylinder right but I'm [TS]

00:09:56   like I'm pretty sure then the volume [TS]

00:09:57   still stays ducked and it's just like I [TS]

00:09:59   feel like the the percentage of the time [TS]

00:10:02   that's going to actually do what you [TS]

00:10:04   want versus the percentage of the time [TS]

00:10:07   that it's going to either keep listening [TS]

00:10:09   something you say afterwards that you [TS]

00:10:10   didn't intend for it to be a command or [TS]

00:10:12   just delay what you were trying to do or [TS]

00:10:14   do something or like you thought it was [TS]

00:10:17   still listening give it another command [TS]

00:10:18   but the five seconds had just ended like [TS]

00:10:20   I feel like the failure rate of that to [TS]

00:10:24   do what people actually want is going to [TS]

00:10:26   be way way too high to be acceptable [TS]

00:10:29   like it's just it's not going to be good [TS]

00:10:31   enough enough of the time whereas what [TS]

00:10:33   like and it's also like to me that's not [TS]

00:10:35   smart [TS]

00:10:36   that's just like a very small [TS]

00:10:38   implementation detail that's not [TS]

00:10:40   actually making the service smarter but [TS]

00:10:42   we actually need is for all these voice [TS]

00:10:44   assistants to become smarter and to [TS]

00:10:46   recognize compound commands that's what [TS]

00:10:49   people actually want play el Scorcho by [TS]

00:10:51   Weezer and turn the volume to five set [TS]

00:10:54   of rice timer for 10 minutes and a pasta [TS]

00:10:56   timer for seven minutes this is what [TS]

00:10:58   people actually want to do and so you [TS]

00:11:00   know little trees like this like that's [TS]

00:11:03   a dumb hack [TS]

00:11:04   really what we need is for the the for [TS]

00:11:06   the voices isn't to get better to [TS]

00:11:07   actually recognize multiple commands the [TS]

00:11:09   way humans will actually give them so [TS]

00:11:11   this is also not what I was asking for [TS]

00:11:13   last week I think that's why I was sent [TS]

00:11:14   to us as follow-up what well I was [TS]

00:11:16   asking for was context awareness such [TS]

00:11:18   that follow-up commands could be aware [TS]

00:11:19   of what you asked for previously [TS]

00:11:21   interpret your subsequent commands in [TS]

00:11:23   light of what you had just asked it [TS]

00:11:25   based on like like the way a person [TS]

00:11:26   would if you say something to a person [TS]

00:11:28   an hour later you see something else [TS]

00:11:29   there's no way they're gonna connect [TS]

00:11:31   that to the context of the last thing [TS]

00:11:32   you said to them but if you say [TS]

00:11:33   something to them and then add an [TS]

00:11:34   addendum two seconds later they have of [TS]

00:11:36   the context of the first command you [TS]

00:11:39   know to understand what you mean and the [TS]

00:11:41   the key part of that is that the second [TS]

00:11:42   thing that you say is not itself a [TS]

00:11:45   complete command it relies on the [TS]

00:11:47   knowledge of the context that's why I [TS]

00:11:48   said last week that it probably requires [TS]

00:11:50   some more local hardware because you [TS]

00:11:52   would want I'm at least for privacy [TS]

00:11:54   reasons or whatever you'd want some some [TS]

00:11:55   of that local context awareness to [TS]

00:11:57   happen you know locally you don't need [TS]

00:11:59   the server to keep track of like your [TS]

00:12:00   session or whatever so we can understand [TS]

00:12:03   that I think we keep some of that [TS]

00:12:04   locally compound commands would also be [TS]

00:12:07   good and actually seems much easier to [TS]

00:12:09   me than what I'm asking for because like [TS]

00:12:10   it's two commands and there's a joiner [TS]

00:12:12   and you can figure it out and break it [TS]

00:12:14   up into pieces but I think it's more [TS]

00:12:17   natural to have a conversation to hone [TS]

00:12:19   in on what you want because that's what [TS]

00:12:21   you do with other people then to [TS]

00:12:23   formulate even a single command let [TS]

00:12:26   alone a compound command as if as I said [TS]

00:12:29   a couple weeks ago you're playing a [TS]

00:12:30   verbal text adventure where maybe you [TS]

00:12:33   don't have to get the syntax just right [TS]

00:12:34   but you understand that you're issuing a [TS]

00:12:36   command and now you maybe even issue [TS]

00:12:37   compound commands but it's not the way [TS]

00:12:39   you would yell them to have the room for [TS]

00:12:41   Marco to add something to your shopping [TS]

00:12:43   list you would you don't you don't have [TS]

00:12:44   to formulate a command for Marco you can [TS]

00:12:45   basically say it in any way that you [TS]

00:12:47   want including addendums and revisions [TS]

00:12:50   and you know what never mind about i [TS]

00:12:53   just get the other thing that you can [TS]

00:12:54   say stuff like that and it knows what [TS]

00:12:56   the heck you're talking about and the [TS]

00:12:57   cylinder does not and that is a really [TS]

00:12:59   tall order delay mode or follow-up mode [TS]

00:13:03   or whatever is not close to that but it [TS]

00:13:06   least shows then the next shows that [TS]

00:13:10   they understand that the current mode of [TS]

00:13:12   wake wake wake word or wake phrase [TS]

00:13:16   followed by single command [TS]

00:13:18   followed by I forget you exist is pretty [TS]

00:13:21   primitive also like I feel like this is [TS]

00:13:24   this kind of has like a Simon Says [TS]

00:13:27   problem where like if you if you get [TS]

00:13:30   accustomed to not saying the wake word [TS]

00:13:32   before every command you give that [TS]

00:13:35   doesn't work all the time like you can't [TS]

00:13:37   say cylinder play out square by tweezer [TS]

00:13:39   and then 10 seconds later say volume 5 [TS]

00:13:43   because it won't recognize it yeah yeah [TS]

00:13:44   say Simon Says volume 5 you gotta say [TS]

00:13:46   cylinder volume right and it's like but [TS]

00:13:48   but sometimes you don't have to say that [TS]

00:13:50   like if you say it within 5 seconds of [TS]

00:13:53   the previous command being completed [TS]

00:13:54   then you can omit the word cylinder and [TS]

00:13:57   it's like well that's like that's just [TS]

00:13:59   gonna be confusing like that's what you [TS]

00:14:00   know it's gonna trip you up when you're [TS]

00:14:01   like it's gonna increase your error rate [TS]

00:14:03   like this is okay this is this is just [TS]

00:14:05   one of the reasons why this isn't a [TS]

00:14:06   solution I I feel like in at a high [TS]

00:14:09   level I think what kind of makes me sad [TS]

00:14:10   about the voice assistant market is that [TS]

00:14:13   all of us like Apple fans are accustomed [TS]

00:14:16   to somebody being you know historically [TS]

00:14:19   Apple being really good at designing [TS]

00:14:22   really smart software and really good [TS]

00:14:25   software experiences and the rest of the [TS]

00:14:28   industry has always been pretty crappy [TS]

00:14:30   overall if there's been a couple of [TS]

00:14:31   bright spots here there but not many and [TS]

00:14:34   I feel like like we're all having to use [TS]

00:14:36   like the like Amazon and Google stuff [TS]

00:14:39   and Amazon and Google have always been [TS]

00:14:40   pretty rough especially Amazon pretty [TS]

00:14:43   rough at user interaction design and and [TS]

00:14:47   software usability design and what we're [TS]

00:14:49   seeing here is just like you know tech [TS]

00:14:53   companies making stuff that's mediocre [TS]

00:14:54   which is what we've always seen an apple [TS]

00:14:56   is always the one who could save us from [TS]

00:14:58   that but unfortunately in this [TS]

00:15:00   particular market they just seem not [TS]

00:15:03   capable of that for whatever reason and [TS]

00:15:05   that just makes me sad like it's like [TS]

00:15:06   usually Apple will be the ones to save [TS]

00:15:08   us and to make like the really good [TS]

00:15:10   thing for people like us who cared about [TS]

00:15:12   good experiences and all the details and [TS]

00:15:14   everything and invoice systems they they [TS]

00:15:16   just aren't capable of doing that for [TS]

00:15:18   whatever reason oh it's kind of sad I [TS]

00:15:19   continue to think that this is much more [TS]

00:15:21   in Google's wheelhouse than apples [TS]

00:15:22   because yes it's a part of user [TS]

00:15:24   interface design but specifically this [TS]

00:15:26   this realm of translating words that a [TS]

00:15:31   human comes up [TS]

00:15:31   up with into an intent is what the [TS]

00:15:34   Google search box is all about it [TS]

00:15:36   frustrates some of us because it no [TS]

00:15:37   longer works like AltaVista where you [TS]

00:15:39   can formulate like a boolean query with [TS]

00:15:40   exact substring matching and and get [TS]

00:15:42   predictable results but that Google [TS]

00:15:44   search box is all about saying people [TS]

00:15:47   just type lots of stuff there and you [TS]

00:15:49   can type things there and concise I'm [TS]

00:15:52   still amazed that the Google search box [TS]

00:15:53   I type things there and it finds what I [TS]

00:15:55   meant for it to find and I don't even [TS]

00:15:57   know how it's doing it like I didn't [TS]

00:15:59   it's not it's you know how did you get [TS]

00:16:01   what I was trying you know you go to the [TS]

00:16:03   page or whatever like none of those [TS]

00:16:05   words are on this page like you somehow [TS]

00:16:08   figured out what I meant I granted it's [TS]

00:16:10   still a single command in response and [TS]

00:16:11   it's not a conversation but Google was [TS]

00:16:14   founded on that strength of going beyond [TS]

00:16:17   the sort of simple direct computer [TS]

00:16:19   search to intelligent interpretation of [TS]

00:16:22   human generated words and translating [TS]

00:16:25   that to an intent and satisfying the [TS]

00:16:28   request [TS]

00:16:28   despite spelling errors weird phrasing [TS]

00:16:31   you know the foibles of humans right and [TS]

00:16:34   the verbal one of that now that [TS]

00:16:36   speech-to-text is as good as it is it [TS]

00:16:39   Maps very well on to the search problem [TS]

00:16:43   in that you have to figure out intent [TS]

00:16:45   and you can get the words from it pretty [TS]

00:16:46   well and you have to figure out intent [TS]

00:16:48   and same thing with spelling errors same [TS]

00:16:49   thing with like you know homonyms or [TS]

00:16:51   whatever that google is good at figuring [TS]

00:16:52   that that's always been google's [TS]

00:16:53   strength so I totally look to them to be [TS]

00:16:55   the ones to figure to figure out this [TS]

00:16:58   aspect of user interface before Apple [TS]

00:17:00   and I think they are doing it better [TS]

00:17:01   than Apple but I agree that all of them [TS]

00:17:04   are are not not as good as I could help [TS]

00:17:07   like Apple is way behind and Amazon and [TS]

00:17:10   Google have been ahead but I'm waiting [TS]

00:17:13   for them both to take like the next [TS]

00:17:14   small step we are sponsored this week by [TS]

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00:17:51   trip and you just need access to a file [TS]

00:17:53   that you forget to bring with you you [TS]

00:17:55   can restore just one file once again on [TS]

00:17:57   the website or on their apps for mobile [TS]

00:17:58   phones it's your choice you can also [TS]

00:18:01   restore by mail so for instance if you [TS]

00:18:03   have a whole bunch of files or like a [TS]

00:18:05   whole drive to restore and it's gonna [TS]

00:18:06   take an unreasonable amount of time to [TS]

00:18:08   download all that stuff you can buy a [TS]

00:18:10   hard drive with all your data on it that [TS]

00:18:12   gets overnighted to you via FedEx and if [TS]

00:18:14   you return the drive back then when [TS]

00:18:16   you're done you get a refund Backblaze [TS]

00:18:18   is used by tons of people they have over [TS]

00:18:20   500 petabytes of data under management [TS]

00:18:22   including about I don't know 10 [TS]

00:18:25   terabytes or so of data from my house [TS]

00:18:27   it's wonderful I use them I've used them [TS]

00:18:29   for a long time since before they were a [TS]

00:18:31   sponsor of any of my stuff and I'll tell [TS]

00:18:33   you what back place is the best [TS]

00:18:34   they really are if you you want online [TS]

00:18:36   backup trust me on that [TS]

00:18:38   and if you're gonna get online backup [TS]

00:18:39   I've tried a lot of services and I stick [TS]

00:18:41   with back plays for lots of good reasons [TS]

00:18:43   I highly suggest use back plays back [TS]

00:18:46   plays is gimmick free there's no [TS]

00:18:49   additional charges just five dollars a [TS]

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00:18:57   connection will do it and of course you [TS]

00:18:59   have control of that if you want to it's [TS]

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00:19:12   happen if you don't have your data [TS]

00:19:13   backed up in the cloud and they also [TS]

00:19:15   have now business backup so if you [TS]

00:19:17   already have back plays at home tell [TS]

00:19:19   your system in at work or if you are the [TS]

00:19:20   system at work tell yourself to go to [TS]

00:19:21   back please calm slash a TV and hit the [TS]

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00:19:35   backing up your data right now trust me [TS]

00:19:37   you will not regret it thank you so much [TS]

00:19:39   to back pleas for sponsoring our show [TS]

00:19:41   [Music] [TS]

00:19:43   what did you guys see there was some [TS]

00:19:46   sort of like drama about Siri that [TS]

00:19:48   happened today I did not get a chance to [TS]

00:19:50   look up what happened but apparently [TS]

00:19:52   someone was like Oh series garbage and [TS]

00:19:55   it's not my fault do you know what I'm [TS]

00:19:56   talking about [TS]

00:19:57   it's a story on the [TS]

00:19:59   information which when I see that [TS]

00:20:01   website I always think of Marco and I'm [TS]

00:20:02   like thank someone the website it's much [TS]

00:20:06   worse much worse than the magazine ever [TS]

00:20:08   was because the information is like [TS]

00:20:10   anyway you know the information is [TS]

00:20:11   really spammy I really don't like like [TS]

00:20:13   they signed me up to their man list when [TS]

00:20:15   they launched as if I had signed up [TS]

00:20:17   saying I was interested and as a result [TS]

00:20:19   even though I have never responded to [TS]

00:20:20   anything never sign up for anything [TS]

00:20:22   they still incessantly spam me and I [TS]

00:20:25   really like you know I know it's kind of [TS]

00:20:28   low to call them up publicly for this [TS]

00:20:30   but that is not okay for anybody to do [TS]

00:20:33   it just drives me nuts you can [TS]

00:20:35   unsubscribe I just unsubscribe today [TS]

00:20:37   speaking of them I did it because I [TS]

00:20:39   finally drove me that nuts but I'm just [TS]

00:20:40   like like I never signed up for this and [TS]

00:20:42   all you're doing is promoting articles [TS]

00:20:44   that I can't see because I'm not gonna [TS]

00:20:47   pay 40 bucks a month to a spammer and so [TS]

00:20:50   like it just it drives me nuts I just [TS]

00:20:52   people play fast and loose with mailing [TS]

00:20:54   lists all the time and on the maleness [TS]

00:20:56   companies like MailChimp everything [TS]

00:20:58   they're all complicit in this because [TS]

00:20:59   they don't require a double opt-in when [TS]

00:21:00   you import am analyst from another [TS]

00:21:01   service allegedly and so like they're [TS]

00:21:04   all complicit because they all make [TS]

00:21:05   spamming people in in Mass really easy [TS]

00:21:07   and as a result I get on all sorts of [TS]

00:21:10   spam lists that appear like I signed up [TS]

00:21:12   for them and you know it's just it's [TS]

00:21:14   it's a dirty scammy trick when you're [TS]

00:21:17   launching something like this to use [TS]

00:21:18   like a PR list you find somewhere or you [TS]

00:21:20   buy somewhere and the information was [TS]

00:21:22   one of the companies that does that's [TS]

00:21:24   one of the many companies that does this [TS]

00:21:25   and so I just have zero respect for them [TS]

00:21:28   zero and I know it's a dumb reason but [TS]

00:21:30   that's how nuts does drives me well [TS]

00:21:33   anyway this explains why I know I was [TS]

00:21:34   actually read the article because none [TS]

00:21:36   of us have paid for the information but [TS]

00:21:38   we know about it because there exists it [TS]

00:21:42   was I think summarized on nine to five [TS]

00:21:44   Mac which is also kind of a scummy [TS]

00:21:46   practice of like taking a paywall the [TS]

00:21:47   article and then basically rewriting it [TS]

00:21:50   worse on your site so that people read [TS]

00:21:52   your site instead of the paywall thing [TS]

00:21:54   yeah I love this business it's such a [TS]

00:21:55   great basis I should really go back to [TS]

00:21:58   publishing web content that sounds like [TS]

00:22:00   a lot of fun I mean I can understand [TS]

00:22:02   like a paragraph and a link seems [TS]

00:22:04   reasonable but once you've gone on for a [TS]

00:22:06   page and a half with laborious the [TS]

00:22:07   summarizing an article that you didn't [TS]

00:22:09   write anyway [TS]

00:22:09   the story as far as I could tell was a [TS]

00:22:11   bunch of a bunch of reports from people [TS]

00:22:14   inside Apple or X Apple people who know [TS]

00:22:17   about the environment workings of Syria [TS]

00:22:19   over the years is saying how and where [TS]

00:22:21   things went wrong with specific quotes [TS]

00:22:22   from specific people assigning blame [TS]

00:22:24   to other people not to themselves [TS]

00:22:26   explaining the situation and it's just [TS]

00:22:28   the typical you know things aren't going [TS]

00:22:31   great inside a big company you know [TS]

00:22:33   product launches and it's not scalable [TS]

00:22:35   and it's band-aided and everyone points [TS]

00:22:37   fingers about who set the priorities or [TS]

00:22:39   what they should be doing and how often [TS]

00:22:40   it should be updated I mean it's it's [TS]

00:22:42   mostly details that may be like [TS]

00:22:44   interesting you know or like from a [TS]

00:22:48   business case perspective if you're [TS]

00:22:50   learning about how businesses run [TS]

00:22:52   interesting but like practically [TS]

00:22:53   speaking I care less and less about the [TS]

00:22:56   internal political goings-on in Apple [TS]

00:22:59   and and mostly just say like that's [TS]

00:23:03   Apple's job to figure out like I'm not [TS]

00:23:04   running Apple I'm not an executive there [TS]

00:23:06   I'm not a high-level manager that's [TS]

00:23:08   their job as a company to figure out how [TS]

00:23:10   to corral the people to produce results [TS]

00:23:14   and if it doesn't go well I'm not that [TS]

00:23:17   interested in why didn't go well who was [TS]

00:23:19   to blame which person was more difficult [TS]

00:23:20   which person made the big wrong [TS]

00:23:22   strategic decision at what point they [TS]

00:23:24   just need to figure that out but on the [TS]

00:23:26   outside of they say look how's the [TS]

00:23:27   product doing and the product is we've [TS]

00:23:28   discussed in the past not doing that [TS]

00:23:30   great and they've had a long time so I [TS]

00:23:31   hope they get it sorted out I don't even [TS]

00:23:34   want to get angry about Siri again so [TS]

00:23:35   let's just move on and instead let's get [TS]

00:23:37   angry about keyboards Marco this is your [TS]

00:23:39   cue Apple apparently has a patented a [TS]

00:23:43   keyboard that cannot be defeated by [TS]

00:23:45   crumbs Marco I know you have been [TS]

00:23:48   celebrating you are swinging from the [TS]

00:23:50   rafters you're so excited so I don't [TS]

00:23:54   know when we're gonna expect to see this [TS]

00:23:55   but hopefully it will mean that I don't [TS]

00:23:57   need to invest in compressed air anymore [TS]

00:23:59   I mean this is a problem I don't have [TS]

00:24:01   because I have a laptop that has a [TS]

00:24:02   functioning keyboard I walked right into [TS]

00:24:05   that one but why do you think Marco [TS]

00:24:07   would be excited by this this seems like [TS]

00:24:08   Marcos nightmare to me because Marco [TS]

00:24:10   loves the fact that the keyboard he [TS]

00:24:12   hates also has a terrible reliability [TS]

00:24:14   problem that allows him to righteously [TS]

00:24:15   rail against it imagine if they made [TS]

00:24:17   that keyboard hundra's i'm relying [TS]

00:24:19   this keyboard works all the time but I [TS]

00:24:21   hate it I mean to be [TS]

00:24:23   fair when it first came out before we [TS]

00:24:25   knew how badly it would break all the [TS]

00:24:26   time that is what I did and also the [TS]

00:24:29   arrow key placement is still horrendous [TS]

00:24:31   and not having the not having the gap [TS]

00:24:32   above the arrows as a both the left and [TS]

00:24:34   right is unforgivable [TS]

00:24:35   but anyway look I I'm of two minds of [TS]

00:24:40   this you know number one John's right [TS]

00:24:42   you know I I in a way I don't want to [TS]

00:24:45   see this keyboard succeed and be fixed [TS]

00:24:47   I'm not gonna lie that's that is part of [TS]

00:24:49   my motivation because I don't like it so [TS]

00:24:51   much but also like keep in mind I had [TS]

00:24:54   those keyboards for what about a year [TS]

00:24:56   before I finally gave up across 13 [TS]

00:24:58   different laptops three and and so and [TS]

00:25:00   it's so I had the keyboard and it's like [TS]

00:25:03   I got used to it enough like I never [TS]

00:25:05   liked it but I was able to function with [TS]

00:25:08   it until it stopped working reliably and [TS]

00:25:11   so the reality is I know you know I got [TS]

00:25:15   a I got to choose my battles here I know [TS]

00:25:17   that a lot of people out there don't [TS]

00:25:19   care or even like this keyboard I know [TS]

00:25:21   that I'm that Apple is always going to [TS]

00:25:24   press to make these things thinner and I [TS]

00:25:27   think Apple has shown it across multiple [TS]

00:25:30   years and multiple products that they [TS]

00:25:33   only care about making the keyboard [TS]

00:25:35   thinner and they will make some efforts [TS]

00:25:38   to make the thin keyboard tolerable but [TS]

00:25:41   they are no longer interested in keeping [TS]

00:25:43   it a good keyboard if that means they [TS]

00:25:46   can't make it thinner and so I just have [TS]

00:25:48   to kind of resign myself to accept that [TS]

00:25:51   III don't I'm not gonna round this for a [TS]

00:25:53   half hour like I usually do because I [TS]

00:25:55   this battle I lost this battle and I'm [TS]

00:25:58   going to continue to lose this battle [TS]

00:26:00   into the future the last thing I think [TS]

00:26:02   Apple's gonna do in the next MacBook [TS]

00:26:04   revision is to make the keyboard thicker [TS]

00:26:06   I it just not gonna happen [TS]

00:26:08   and I I fundamentally don't believe that [TS]

00:26:12   they can make a keyboard with this [TS]

00:26:14   little travel good I give to one that [TS]

00:26:17   they can do it good as far as you're [TS]

00:26:19   concerned though because lots of people [TS]

00:26:20   do really like the keyboard I mean Casey [TS]

00:26:21   and I included it basically being [TS]

00:26:23   converted to this new keyboard this is [TS]

00:26:25   just the reliability issues and as you [TS]

00:26:27   said the key layout right and so [TS]

00:26:28   basically if they can fix the [TS]

00:26:31   reliability problems yeah I would love [TS]

00:26:34   if they made the keyboard a different [TS]

00:26:35   style [TS]

00:26:36   if they can fix the reliability problems [TS]

00:26:39   that that's the best I can hope for the [TS]

00:26:42   key layout is just sitting right there [TS]

00:26:43   too because there can be divisive [TS]

00:26:45   opinions about do you like how this [TS]

00:26:46   keyboard feels or not like some people [TS]

00:26:47   like it some people don't find but I [TS]

00:26:49   feel like key layout changes there are [TS]

00:26:51   certain key layout changes that would be [TS]

00:26:54   universally praised from the perspective [TS]

00:26:56   of using the keyboard and the only [TS]

00:26:58   naysayers would be aesthetic for example [TS]

00:27:00   inverted t full-size breaking the [TS]

00:27:02   rectangle of the keyboard [TS]

00:27:03   aesthetically people would hate that it [TS]

00:27:05   would be like the notch on the keyboard [TS]

00:27:07   it would be like an asymmetrical notch [TS]

00:27:08   on the bottom of your keyboard and those [TS]

00:27:10   people would yell about it but from the [TS]

00:27:12   perspective of people who type how does [TS]

00:27:13   it feel to type on I don't see anybody [TS]

00:27:16   saying please bring back the half size [TS]

00:27:18   our keys with or without the gaps above [TS]

00:27:20   them I mean are there fans out there [TS]

00:27:21   who'd say please bring them back again [TS]

00:27:23   yes I can imagine it but not from a [TS]

00:27:27   functional perspective did you just say [TS]

00:27:29   that you would bring asked to bring back [TS]

00:27:30   the half our keys the what would you [TS]

00:27:33   mean the way I have them only 2015 where [TS]

00:27:34   the left and right are half height now I [TS]

00:27:36   mean Brett make a full height and have [TS]

00:27:38   that have the rectangular shape the [TS]

00:27:40   defines be broken so basically have the [TS]

00:27:43   up key in line with the other ones now [TS]

00:27:44   but have the down left and right like [TS]

00:27:46   you know a look in their own row below [TS]

00:27:48   us exactly I have all them be full sized [TS]

00:27:50   and have gaps above them I mean that [TS]

00:27:51   would be cool but there that's never [TS]

00:27:53   gonna do that so yeah no I'm just saying [TS]

00:27:55   like like the our key outlet he layout [TS]

00:27:57   changes that I think would be [TS]

00:27:58   universally praised for our functional [TS]

00:28:00   perspective but derided only from a [TS]

00:28:01   static perspective I'm not even saying [TS]

00:28:03   that wrong because I understand thinking [TS]

00:28:05   that's ugly but boy would that be nicer [TS]

00:28:07   for people use air which is I think [TS]

00:28:10   everybody like who doesn't use the arrow [TS]

00:28:12   keys a lot like my son these days he's [TS]

00:28:19   using the mouse to move his insertion [TS]

00:28:20   point one space I'm just like yo case [TS]

00:28:23   use them like stop he goes from the [TS]

00:28:26   keyboard to the mass of the keyboard [TS]

00:28:27   when he can't reach him he can't figure [TS]

00:28:29   out where they are because they're all [TS]

00:28:29   the same height as everything else [TS]

00:28:31   oh he's using a full-size Apple extended [TS]

00:28:33   keyboard sighs are you kidding we're not [TS]

00:28:35   using not my Hanson yeah increase in [TS]

00:28:38   real keyboards here and like I even [TS]

00:28:41   showed him the modifier for moving a [TS]

00:28:43   word at a time and beginning of end of [TS]

00:28:44   line but just for a single character [TS]

00:28:46   like see take the mouse and steer it to [TS]

00:28:48   go to the left [TS]

00:28:49   of you know the place where he needs to [TS]

00:28:51   insert a quotation mark to match the [TS]

00:28:53   other one and it's like just just hit [TS]

00:28:54   the left arrow once I swear to you it [TS]

00:28:56   will work and he's just not he's not on [TS]

00:28:58   that page this is what happens from not [TS]

00:28:59   using computers and only using like [TS]

00:29:01   iPads and iPhones like your whole [TS]

00:29:02   formative years you have no idea about [TS]

00:29:04   moving the cursor with arrow keys well [TS]

00:29:07   anyway yeah I don't I wouldn't expect [TS]

00:29:10   Apple to do anything that's gonna make [TS]

00:29:11   the keyboard less attractive to the [TS]

00:29:15   current Apple design teams aesthetic I [TS]

00:29:18   agree unfortunately they're just not [TS]

00:29:20   gonna do it like you know it's this is [TS]

00:29:22   not not like a rare thing with Apple [TS]

00:29:23   these days like look at the Apple TV [TS]

00:29:24   remote look at I mean look even look [TS]

00:29:26   they're right they're regular like [TS]

00:29:27   keyboards and mice and everything like [TS]

00:29:29   if they were willing to make it a little [TS]

00:29:31   bit ugly they could make it better [TS]

00:29:32   economically or feel better or work [TS]

00:29:34   better or whatever else but they're not [TS]

00:29:35   and it's easy to see both sides of this [TS]

00:29:37   argument like we all argue like these [TS]

00:29:39   things should work better design is how [TS]

00:29:40   it works they argue we are printing [TS]

00:29:42   money and this is how we like to design [TS]

00:29:44   things and this is what looks good and [TS]

00:29:45   people buy our stuff in part because it [TS]

00:29:47   looks good it is ascetically better I [TS]

00:29:49   think we would all agree it does look [TS]

00:29:50   better when the keyboard is just a [TS]

00:29:52   rectangle like it just does like as a [TS]

00:29:53   piece of art as a you know but yeah and [TS]

00:29:56   look Apple these days is really good [TS]

00:29:58   designing beautiful things that kind of [TS]

00:30:00   suck to use like that's that's good it [TS]

00:30:03   could even be argued that the uniformity [TS]

00:30:05   is the reason the right and left our [TS]

00:30:06   piece became full height because those [TS]

00:30:08   little gaps were an asymmetry it I [TS]

00:30:10   guarantee you that's the reason because [TS]

00:30:12   there's no there's no other reason to it [TS]

00:30:14   it doesn't make them easier to use the [TS]

00:30:16   same reason that the bottom row of keys [TS]

00:30:17   is now the same height as all the other [TS]

00:30:18   rows again uniformity yeah Oh totally [TS]

00:30:21   yeah it's you know because it's its [TS]

00:30:22   design it's designed purely to [TS]

00:30:24   aesthetics it's egotistical design it is [TS]

00:30:27   indulgent design for the designers to [TS]

00:30:29   indulge themselves and what they think [TS]

00:30:31   looks the best without regard to how [TS]

00:30:33   things work someone I think I'll also [TS]

00:30:36   point out that even on the like the [TS]

00:30:38   external keyboards for desktop computers [TS]

00:30:41   the bottom row of keys is now the same [TS]

00:30:43   high as all the Owens I didn't actually [TS]

00:30:44   check this because I don't have one of [TS]

00:30:46   those new keyboards to compare with but [TS]

00:30:48   I wouldn't be surprised to that were the [TS]

00:30:50   case if only for parts sharing reason [TS]

00:30:51   suppose you all know Apple likes to use [TS]

00:30:54   the same keyboard across all of his all [TS]

00:30:56   of its laptops from 12 inches to 17 [TS]

00:30:58   which I will you know forever remember [TS]

00:31:00   as a ridiculous thing and now [TS]

00:31:02   there's only slightly less ridiculous [TS]

00:31:03   that's shared between the 15 and the 13 [TS]

00:31:06   and the 12 I guess oh so I'm this before [TS]

00:31:10   we leave this this bit of fall pair on [TS]

00:31:11   this this pen the date of his patent is [TS]

00:31:13   uh 2016 which makes me think like just [TS]

00:31:17   as the original Mac books were coming [TS]

00:31:19   out about 2016 or was that they came out [TS]

00:31:22   in early 2015 a year before and a half [TS]

00:31:25   before they brought this keyboard to all [TS]

00:31:27   of their laptops during which it was [TS]

00:31:29   very clear during that year and a half [TS]

00:31:31   that it failed a lot yeah so so but they [TS]

00:31:34   but in 2016 they introduced the MacBook [TS]

00:31:36   Pros with the same keyboard at the same [TS]

00:31:37   time they filed this patent so it shows [TS]

00:31:39   that they had been thinking about at [TS]

00:31:41   some point you know before 2016 they had [TS]

00:31:45   been investigating these different ways [TS]

00:31:47   to seal up the bottom of the thing no I [TS]

00:31:48   I think I brought this up when we talked [TS]

00:31:50   about the original slimline keyboard and [TS]

00:31:53   maybe was when we talked about the touch [TS]

00:31:54   bar but I think this is oh use this [TS]

00:31:57   opportunity to once again promote the [TS]

00:31:59   idea that I think Apple would benefit [TS]

00:32:01   from on all of its laptops this idea of [TS]

00:32:03   sealing up the key caps with little [TS]

00:32:04   membrane so that stuff can't get in [TS]

00:32:06   there just take the next level and make [TS]

00:32:07   these damn things waterproof right if [TS]

00:32:09   you can waterproof a phone if you made a [TS]

00:32:11   waterproof keyboard included which will [TS]

00:32:13   also obviously include as a side effect [TS]

00:32:14   the inability to get crap underneath the [TS]

00:32:16   keys I would imagine I mean doesn't have [TS]

00:32:18   to necessarily but I would imagine that [TS]

00:32:19   would be that could be part of it people [TS]

00:32:21   will love you for it [TS]

00:32:22   how many people KC spill things on their [TS]

00:32:24   laptops if you like is it beyond us [TS]

00:32:28   technologically speaking to make a sort [TS]

00:32:31   of sealed keyboard that feels good I [TS]

00:32:32   mean maybe these patterns are just [TS]

00:32:33   patents because Apple figured out if you [TS]

00:32:35   do this it makes the keyboard feel even [TS]

00:32:36   worse I don't know we'll see if they [TS]

00:32:38   ever produce something like this but [TS]

00:32:39   well no I mean we we kind of know that [TS]

00:32:41   from the smart Keyboard the the iPad pro [TS]

00:32:43   smart keyboard has I think but the same [TS]

00:32:46   butterfly switches or at least similar [TS]

00:32:48   feeling switches but it has like a [TS]

00:32:50   membrane across the whole thing and so [TS]

00:32:52   it is I think roughly a water resistant [TS]

00:32:55   at least but it doesn't get it doesn't [TS]

00:32:58   get stuff under the keys it doesn't do [TS]

00:33:00   that so we kind of know like this is [TS]

00:33:02   possible to do with just a membrane and [TS]

00:33:04   I know that one of the Microsoft Surface [TS]

00:33:05   notebook lines does it too and they have [TS]

00:33:08   issues with it like you know getting [TS]

00:33:09   dirty and looking really grimy and gross [TS]

00:33:11   really fast but like that's not to say [TS]

00:33:13   that it has to go that way like maybe [TS]

00:33:15   different materials choices could [TS]

00:33:16   different different results they're like [TS]

00:33:18   that's not actually that bad of a thing [TS]

00:33:21   to try I don't know if it would feel [TS]

00:33:23   better or worse than we have now but [TS]

00:33:24   like the smart Keyboard like I use the [TS]

00:33:26   smart Keyboard all the time on the iPad [TS]

00:33:28   I wouldn't call it great but it's [TS]

00:33:31   tolerable and that's about what I can [TS]

00:33:33   say for the notebook one as well so it's [TS]

00:33:36   just tolerable in slightly different [TS]

00:33:37   ways but you know what the smart [TS]

00:33:39   keyboard keys never failed on me not [TS]

00:33:40   once because stuff can't get in there so [TS]

00:33:42   it's not a ridiculous idea do you have [TS]

00:33:45   the problems of the smart Keyboard with [TS]

00:33:46   like I think it was iOS 11 or something [TS]

00:33:47   people complaining the smart Keyboard [TS]

00:33:48   doesn't work reliable anymore due to [TS]

00:33:50   like some change and in a debouncing [TS]

00:33:51   firmware some crap oh yeah no I mean [TS]

00:33:53   it's it's not I haven't had I don't know [TS]

00:33:55   if it's related to deep bouncing or not [TS]

00:33:57   no I definitely is less reliable that [TS]

00:34:00   seems like a like an iOS software thing [TS]

00:34:01   like just like the way the apps behave [TS]

00:34:03   with the keyboard attached to detached [TS]

00:34:05   it has been more buggy rotations been [TS]

00:34:07   more buggy yeah it's it's been kind of a [TS]

00:34:09   mess but I attribute that to iOS 11 but [TS]

00:34:13   I don't know anyway I think one [TS]

00:34:14   challenge you might have with the idea [TS]

00:34:15   of waterproofing a laptop is ventilation [TS]

00:34:17   and cooling yeah no it mean is obviously [TS]

00:34:21   the MacBook is your easiest one right [TS]

00:34:22   because the reason I bring up this whole [TS]

00:34:24   idea of waterproofing now is that Apple [TS]

00:34:27   has slowly been sealing up its laptops [TS]

00:34:29   not for the purpose of water performing [TS]

00:34:30   but just for the purpose of Apple being [TS]

00:34:32   Apple like getting rid of moving parts [TS]

00:34:34   and seams and making them unibody and [TS]

00:34:35   then the battery is not removable then [TS]

00:34:37   another would look at this as D [TS]

00:34:38   contenting I mean it's a simplification [TS]

00:34:41   it's moving towards this Platonic ideal [TS]

00:34:43   of like this is a featureless you know [TS]

00:34:45   smooth they are certainly featureless [TS]

00:34:48   all right and so the MacBook no vents [TS]

00:34:51   right you still have to deal with the [TS]

00:34:52   ports which I think might be challenging [TS]

00:34:54   because Apple doesn't get to define all [TS]

00:34:55   those ports you have to come up with the [TS]

00:34:57   sealed but still repairable e internal [TS]

00:34:59   or replaceable USB C port or whatever [TS]

00:35:02   but there's not a lot of holes in a [TS]

00:35:03   12-inch MacBook right so I feel like [TS]

00:35:05   that is that is a good candidate if you [TS]

00:35:07   can steal an iPad or an iPhone you know [TS]

00:35:10   it has similar number of holes to to a [TS]

00:35:13   MacBook adorable the 12-inch [TS]

00:35:16   Apple laptop for the ones with with [TS]

00:35:18   vents and fans I granted us a lot harder [TS]

00:35:20   but even on those if you say look it's [TS]

00:35:23   not waterproof but the top surface the [TS]

00:35:26   keyboard surface if you do a spill on it [TS]

00:35:28   you'll be okay [TS]

00:35:30   the water will shed away and not be [TS]

00:35:32   sucked into the vents and the top is [TS]

00:35:35   sealed so that it's waterproof so we can [TS]

00:35:37   take a spill you can't dunk the thing in [TS]

00:35:39   water but it's better than it was before [TS]

00:35:41   because if you spell on the keyboard you [TS]

00:35:43   doom didn't Apple would never repair [TS]

00:35:44   everything again and if this membrane [TS]

00:35:46   keyboard like if they do this for chrome [TS]

00:35:48   reasons I said while you're in there see [TS]

00:35:50   what you can do about water let's call [TS]

00:35:52   it water resistance or something you [TS]

00:35:54   know I I just think it's it's kind of [TS]

00:35:58   silly as time goes on that our phones [TS]

00:36:02   can be dropped into a glass of water and [TS]

00:36:04   come back out okay but are much more [TS]

00:36:06   expensive laptops like a pin drop of [TS]

00:36:11   water fan falls on the keyboard and [TS]

00:36:13   filters down to the inside and starts [TS]

00:36:14   corroding things and it's all over one [TS]

00:36:16   speck of dust $700 one speck of wet dust [TS]

00:36:20   $1,200 yeah no more that's like total [TS]

00:36:22   replacements like sorry well it's like [TS]

00:36:24   they probably the phone's water got in [TS]

00:36:25   this and that we don't cover water [TS]

00:36:27   damage I don't know that's true of [TS]

00:36:29   laptops but I know the phones have those [TS]

00:36:31   little water damage sensor thingies on [TS]

00:36:33   them that they yell at you about if it [TS]

00:36:35   turns out your thing has water damage no [TS]

00:36:36   it is also true of laptops right use [TS]

00:36:39   desktop kids they don't get wet they [TS]

00:36:41   don't get wet in those cases around I [TS]

00:36:43   bet everybody good friends challenge [TS]

00:36:45   accepted I would say hold my beer but [TS]

00:36:48   I'm gonna need it we are sponsored this [TS]

00:36:51   week by after socks bone conduction [TS]

00:36:52   headphones go to ATP aftershocks calm [TS]

00:36:55   and use code ATP 30 to get $30 off the [TS]

00:36:59   wonderful new treks air their new [TS]

00:37:00   flagship headphones bone conduction [TS]

00:37:02   headphones rest next to your ear not on [TS]

00:37:05   it not around it not in it and they send [TS]

00:37:08   small vibrations through your cheek [TS]

00:37:10   bones that reach your inner ear so it [TS]

00:37:12   feels like you're wearing nothing at all [TS]

00:37:14   really and especially the new Trek's air [TS]

00:37:15   are so light they have a full titanium [TS]

00:37:18   wraparound band weighs just 1.06 ounces [TS]

00:37:21   it's incredibly light it's incredibly [TS]

00:37:23   comfortable and it feels like you were [TS]

00:37:24   nothing at all but you hear the sound [TS]

00:37:26   from the headphones and you also hear [TS]

00:37:27   the sound around you which just can be [TS]

00:37:29   very useful for practicality and safety [TS]

00:37:31   reasons in various conditions and the [TS]

00:37:33   best thing is there's nothing in your [TS]

00:37:34   ear so if your ears hurt like mine do [TS]

00:37:37   when you when you put in like regular [TS]

00:37:38   earbuds you won't have this problem with [TS]

00:37:40   the Trek's air because they're not [TS]

00:37:41   resting in your ear or they're not [TS]

00:37:43   squishing against your ear there [TS]

00:37:44   resting next year with a very small [TS]

00:37:46   contact patch so it's also ip55 [TS]

00:37:48   certified to repel sweat dust and [TS]

00:37:50   moisture so it's very good for bad [TS]

00:37:52   weather or workouts or anything like [TS]

00:37:54   that battery life is great on these they [TS]

00:37:56   have over six hours of battery life for [TS]

00:37:58   continuous music and phone calls a [TS]

00:38:00   twenty days standby time and they can [TS]

00:38:02   charge fully in just two hours [TS]

00:38:04   the tracks are also features EQ options [TS]

00:38:07   so if you want a boost bass or reduce [TS]

00:38:09   vibration you can do that there's of [TS]

00:38:11   course microphones dual noise cancelling [TS]

00:38:13   microphones to make incredibly clear [TS]

00:38:15   phone calls with the new tracks air they [TS]

00:38:17   are wonderful if you have any problems [TS]

00:38:18   they are they have a two-year warranty I [TS]

00:38:20   use the tracks air myself and I love [TS]

00:38:23   them I absolutely love them they're [TS]

00:38:25   wonderful for hearing the world around [TS]

00:38:27   you which is something that most [TS]

00:38:28   headphones really don't offer very well [TS]

00:38:30   if at all with these they're great for [TS]

00:38:31   if you're like walking outside and you [TS]

00:38:33   want to hear so you don't get like hit [TS]

00:38:34   by a car or something terrible like that [TS]

00:38:36   or even more practical stuff like if [TS]

00:38:38   you're in your house and you want to [TS]

00:38:39   hear somebody knocks on the door or if [TS]

00:38:41   your phone is ringing somewhere else [TS]

00:38:42   it's very very useful check it out today [TS]

00:38:45   ATP aftershocks calm and you can get $30 [TS]

00:38:49   off the treks air model which is the [TS]

00:38:51   model I highly recommend ATP's of [TS]

00:38:53   aftershocks comm code ATP 30 for $30 off [TS]

00:38:57   the treks air thank you so much two [TS]

00:38:58   aftershocks bone conduction headphones [TS]

00:39:00   for sponsoring our show what do you guys [TS]

00:39:05   think I know this has been very well [TS]

00:39:07   covered especially on the talk show a [TS]

00:39:08   few days ago but what do you guys think [TS]

00:39:10   of the rumors of a potential MacBook Air [TS]

00:39:13   update this this to me I think is [TS]

00:39:15   potentially very interesting yeah I [TS]

00:39:17   heard that was the talk show with the [TS]

00:39:20   Jason us now Snell was on yeah Jason [TS]

00:39:21   Snell and John Gruber were talking about [TS]

00:39:23   that I kind of agree with Jason about [TS]

00:39:25   his consternation of this like somehow [TS]

00:39:28   we can't kill this laptop and I'm mostly [TS]

00:39:30   I'm also coming at it from a sort of [TS]

00:39:32   Apple should be embarrassed angle not so [TS]

00:39:34   much of the MacBook Air is a bad machine [TS]

00:39:36   but there's one part of the machine I [TS]

00:39:38   think is inexcusable that's the screen [TS]

00:39:40   now because it's not in retina like they [TS]

00:39:42   made all the points in the show some [TS]

00:39:43   people don't care about retina some [TS]

00:39:44   people can't even see the difference but [TS]

00:39:46   because it has such incredibly bad [TS]

00:39:48   viewing angles brightness and color [TS]

00:39:51   reproduction right it just it's just at [TS]

00:39:53   this point when it was introduced fine [TS]

00:39:55   at this point it is just a bad [TS]

00:39:57   looks worse than basically any new PC [TS]

00:40:00   laptop screen you could buy at any price [TS]

00:40:02   we hold an honest question have you seen [TS]

00:40:04   a 12-inch MacBook screen yeah sure [TS]

00:40:07   because they like if you look at the 12 [TS]

00:40:09   inch compared to the other higher end [TS]

00:40:11   ones the 12 inch screen is also [TS]

00:40:13   noticeably worse at things like viewing [TS]

00:40:15   angle color everything it's it's not a [TS]

00:40:16   good screen but it's better than it's [TS]

00:40:18   better than the air that's true I'll [TS]

00:40:20   give you the head but but but it's not [TS]

00:40:22   it's still like a crap screen it is not [TS]

00:40:24   Oh a slowdown it is not a cracked screen [TS]

00:40:27   wouldn't compare it to a MacBook Pro [TS]

00:40:29   screen of an even the old ones I do that [TS]

00:40:32   every day I know yeah the MacBook [TS]

00:40:35   adorable one any day its retina so it's [TS]

00:40:38   like way better than that but but I just [TS]

00:40:39   I'm just saying for color reproduction [TS]

00:40:41   of viewing it were a thing that Apple [TS]

00:40:42   you surprised itself andhe they never [TS]

00:40:43   really had crap monitors that they [TS]

00:40:44   always had pretty much the best monitors [TS]

00:40:46   and then they wouldn't let a really old [TS]

00:40:48   monitor stay around for a long time that [TS]

00:40:49   they would that they would refresh and [TS]

00:40:50   they have been refreshing the MacBook [TS]

00:40:52   Air like ripping out the you know [TS]

00:40:53   changing the internals and everything [TS]

00:40:54   like that but leaving that screen like [TS]

00:40:57   it just it just boggles my mind because [TS]

00:40:59   I feel like at this point I would never [TS]

00:41:02   want to buy a thousand dollar laptop [TS]

00:41:03   with that screen on it it seems [TS]

00:41:05   inexcusable so if they had been updating [TS]

00:41:08   the MacBook Air to keep it limping along [TS]

00:41:10   on life support and had also updated the [TS]

00:41:12   screen I would be like well this is not [TS]

00:41:13   ideal but they're you know they found [TS]

00:41:16   themselves in a weird place with their [TS]

00:41:17   product line so let's see what they do [TS]

00:41:18   with it like I think Jason and Gruber [TS]

00:41:21   had a good analysis of that as they they [TS]

00:41:23   somehow it's conceivable they somehow [TS]

00:41:25   found themselves in the scenario where [TS]

00:41:26   any move to replace it would result in [TS]

00:41:31   reduced margins on one or both lines as [TS]

00:41:33   the as the pyre shifted and then Tim [TS]

00:41:36   Cook philosophy is like it if it ain't [TS]

00:41:38   broke people are still giving us money [TS]

00:41:39   for it don't fix it which is a terrible [TS]

00:41:41   from a like coherent product line [TS]

00:41:43   directive and if there is another live [TS]

00:41:44   talk show with Apple executives on it I [TS]

00:41:46   really hope John asks them there I hope [TS]

00:41:50   you doesn't ask them because if you ask [TS]

00:41:51   them it seems like your laptop line has [TS]

00:41:54   no coherent story you can make like well [TS]

00:41:57   the errors would be able to like blah [TS]

00:41:58   blah blah and then you have the MacBook [TS]

00:41:59   of people all you're doing is like wrist [TS]

00:42:01   listing the pros and cons of your models [TS]

00:42:03   but there there is no coherent story to [TS]

00:42:05   the naming features or pricing of the [TS]

00:42:06   current Apple laptop [TS]

00:42:07   it is a mess and so I would state that [TS]

00:42:09   and say you know that there's no [TS]

00:42:12   coherent story to the naming features of [TS]

00:42:14   pricing of your hub line why is that and [TS]

00:42:17   if they want to contest that I would [TS]

00:42:18   push back pretty hard to set con one of [TS]

00:42:20   them is called air but it's not the [TS]

00:42:22   lightest but it's super old it's got a [TS]

00:42:24   mag safe on it but the element don't [TS]

00:42:25   have MagSafe one's called macbook pro [TS]

00:42:26   but it's got the internals of the air [TS]

00:42:28   and it's your brain explodes so I think [TS]

00:42:32   their line is in disarray and I think [TS]

00:42:34   they can make I think the MacBook Air [TS]

00:42:37   was a great model of laptop but that we [TS]

00:42:41   have the technology now to make a line [TS]

00:42:44   of computers that spans the exact same [TS]

00:42:46   price range that offers a better [TS]

00:42:49   computer at the thousand dollar price [TS]

00:42:50   point than they current offer now and [TS]

00:42:52   also there's a better computer at all [TS]

00:42:53   the other ones and you know depending [TS]

00:42:55   how you want to do it hey put on MagSafe [TS]

00:42:57   and USB see you let people charge from [TS]

00:42:58   both let's see which one people like [TS]

00:42:59   better right because then you get the [TS]

00:43:01   advantages of cases and his his switch [TS]

00:43:03   charger and the advantage of you trip [TS]

00:43:04   over my card you won't break it and you [TS]

00:43:06   can maybe you can choose when you order [TS]

00:43:07   it whether you want the MagSafe or not [TS]

00:43:08   because maybe you just want to be able [TS]

00:43:10   to use all your same chart anyway or put [TS]

00:43:11   a SD card slot on the side of it of [TS]

00:43:14   these computers or maybe you have an [TS]

00:43:15   HDMI port on one model like I know I'm [TS]

00:43:17   gonna live a crazy here but I long for [TS]

00:43:20   the days when you could look at the line [TS]

00:43:22   of Apple laptops and say I see how it [TS]

00:43:24   goes [TS]

00:43:24   big small low price high price lot not a [TS]

00:43:27   lot of features a bunch of features and [TS]

00:43:29   have them all look like a family and [TS]

00:43:31   that's not the case not the case at all [TS]

00:43:35   so one one [TS]

00:43:37   I think curiosity that I that I had but [TS]

00:43:39   thread the other nice discussion of it [TS]

00:43:41   again I think listen to the talk show [TS]

00:43:42   this week it's a really good discussion [TS]

00:43:44   about this from a lot of different [TS]

00:43:45   angles but one one thought I had was [TS]

00:43:48   like if they make a retina MacBook Air [TS]

00:43:53   if they literally change nothing else [TS]

00:43:56   about it except a Retina screen and [TS]

00:43:58   maybe replacing the two Thunderbolt 2 [TS]

00:44:02   ports it has I have one or two replacing [TS]

00:44:04   its Thunderbolt 2 ports with USBC ports [TS]

00:44:06   and then of course you know a modern [TS]

00:44:09   chipset of the same type that we that's [TS]

00:44:11   currently the MacBook Escape would [TS]

00:44:13   anybody still buy the MacBook escape no [TS]

00:44:16   like that that that's the problem we [TS]

00:44:19   talked about if you improve the [TS]

00:44:21   MacBook Air why would anyone buy a [TS]

00:44:23   MacBook or MacBook why would I not know [TS]

00:44:24   - sorry a MacBook Pro rather not a [TS]

00:44:26   MacBook the MacBook escaped a 13-inch [TS]

00:44:28   MacBook without touch bar is by many [TS]

00:44:32   measures a MacBook Air it has the [TS]

00:44:34   MacBook Air Class processors the MacBook [TS]

00:44:36   Air Class chipset and everything else [TS]

00:44:37   it's it's the same approximate size and [TS]

00:44:41   weight it's a little bit you know it's [TS]

00:44:42   slightly different but it roughly the [TS]

00:44:44   same size and weight as the 13-inch [TS]

00:44:46   MacBook Air but if you put it if you put [TS]

00:44:49   a Retina screen in the old ancient [TS]

00:44:51   MacBook Air body that was designed in [TS]

00:44:54   2010 I bet it would sell better than the [TS]

00:44:57   13-inch MacBook Escape it would be a [TS]

00:44:59   better laptop it has an SD card slot it [TS]

00:45:02   has you know MagSafe the option for mac [TS]

00:45:05   safe it has legacy USB ports which apple [TS]

00:45:08   acknowledges is a thing that some people [TS]

00:45:09   want otherwise they wouldn't have put [TS]

00:45:10   them on the I of Mac Pro right yeah if [TS]

00:45:13   you could show the regular person which [TS]

00:45:14   one of these laptops do you think is [TS]

00:45:16   better which one do you want and didn't [TS]

00:45:17   tell them about the price and they [TS]

00:45:18   weren't sensitive to styling cues that [TS]

00:45:20   clearly indicate for the MacBook Air is [TS]

00:45:21   super old right they would say oh that [TS]

00:45:23   one's got more stuff it's got more [TS]

00:45:25   features it's got more things and this [TS]

00:45:27   magnet power cable is really smart right [TS]

00:45:29   why should you ever pick the other one [TS]

00:45:31   if we tell you guess what that one's [TS]

00:45:32   three hundred dollars more you like well [TS]

00:45:34   who would pay three hundred dollars more [TS]

00:45:35   to have no ports on the side for a [TS]

00:45:37   computer that is basically the same size [TS]

00:45:39   and weight and it perceptibly seems [TS]

00:45:41   thicker because it doesn't taper right [TS]

00:45:43   like the MacBook Air is thicker on one [TS]

00:45:45   end but thinner on the other but it [TS]

00:45:46   seems smaller because it gets skinny [TS]

00:45:48   just for the perception type thing like [TS]

00:45:49   that that's the and and it's fine if [TS]

00:45:52   they do that like if they want to remake [TS]

00:45:53   their line and in that way you'd have to [TS]

00:45:56   sort this type of thing out but instead [TS]

00:45:58   they they leave it in the current [TS]

00:46:01   scenario where the old one is clearly [TS]

00:46:03   old that has serious downsides versus [TS]

00:46:06   the regular one in terms of that [TS]

00:46:07   terrible screen they have on it right [TS]

00:46:08   the new one is expensive for no [TS]

00:46:11   perceptible reason and you trade off a [TS]

00:46:12   bunch of stuff and then they gets even [TS]

00:46:14   more super expensive and you still don't [TS]

00:46:15   get your ports back and you still have [TS]

00:46:17   no magic say from the keyboard is weird [TS]

00:46:18   and breaks all the time so they need to [TS]

00:46:21   they need to do something I really want [TS]

00:46:22   to just clean house on the laptop line [TS]

00:46:24   and say all new line one nice family [TS]

00:46:28   unified in appearance features and has a [TS]

00:46:30   coherent ramp from from expensive than [TS]

00:46:32   expensive and by the way at all [TS]

00:46:35   point centered all sizes every one of [TS]

00:46:37   them is better in some way whether it [TS]

00:46:38   has more features or better reliability [TS]

00:46:40   or you know faster or whatever yeah I I [TS]

00:46:44   suspect we're gonna see some kind of [TS]

00:46:46   major movement in the laptop line this [TS]

00:46:49   year I really hope we do the current [TS]

00:46:52   line has so many of these like weird [TS]

00:46:54   issues not to mention you know some of [TS]

00:46:56   the problems it has but like just like [TS]

00:46:57   these like weird things about like that [TS]

00:46:59   make it you know more or less compelling [TS]

00:47:01   or seemingly weirdly priced in certain [TS]

00:47:03   ways or really segmented in other ways [TS]

00:47:05   like it needs help and I have a feeling [TS]

00:47:09   Apple knew that two years ago at like [TS]

00:47:11   shortly after it launched and I have a [TS]

00:47:13   feeling they've work to fix it and so [TS]

00:47:15   the only question is how they're fixing [TS]

00:47:17   it and I don't expect this to be you [TS]

00:47:19   know giving me all my hopes and dreams [TS]

00:47:20   or anything but but I do expect change [TS]

00:47:23   and hopefully improvement and so we'll [TS]

00:47:25   see what that means speaking of hopes [TS]

00:47:27   and dreams this is a tough question in [TS]

00:47:31   the style these recent ones that to [TS]

00:47:32   listeners have been sending us for the [TS]

00:47:34   high end laptops which is where we're [TS]

00:47:36   all shopping well you two are shopping [TS]

00:47:38   cos I don't buy laptops I'm getting [TS]

00:47:40   towards that point if you had to pick [TS]

00:47:43   one port to add to the current crop of [TS]

00:47:49   MacBook Pro ports I suspect the 15-inch [TS]

00:47:51   MacBook Pro visit as the most would you [TS]

00:47:52   can only pick one for your own personal [TS]

00:47:55   purposes not for like what would make a [TS]

00:47:56   better laptop for Apple to sell what [TS]

00:47:58   would you pick on a 15-inch no question [TS]

00:48:01   an SD card reader jay-z I'm torn between [TS]

00:48:06   ancient USB and SD card reader [TS]

00:48:08   I would probably h TM I would also be [TS]

00:48:11   convenient I know I'm thinking I see and [TS]

00:48:14   like to me like if you if it's less if [TS]

00:48:16   it's not the 15-inch like if you ask me [TS]

00:48:18   what what port I would add to the [TS]

00:48:19   MacBook Escape it would be a third of [TS]

00:48:21   anything like a third USB C port just [TS]

00:48:23   one more of anything because that's what [TS]

00:48:25   it most desperately needs like the 12 X [TS]

00:48:27   2 right yeah the same thing I would kill [TS]

00:48:28   for a second USB C port in my but that's [TS]

00:48:31   my big the 15 just just to see like you [TS]

00:48:33   know you feel like there's enough USB [TS]

00:48:34   seasoned on the 15 but you can add one [TS]

00:48:36   more thing you know what would it be [TS]

00:48:38   I I am very torn between SD between old [TS]

00:48:42   USB and between HDMI but I think if I [TS]

00:48:44   had to pick [TS]

00:48:45   I think I would probably I would [TS]

00:48:48   probably come down on SD card reader [TS]

00:48:49   because I don't find a need for plugging [TS]

00:48:53   in the Aged HDMI that often and I have a [TS]

00:48:55   dongle for it I don't have a need for [TS]

00:48:57   plugging in Legacy USB stuff that often [TS]

00:49:00   and I have a dongle for it but I do have [TS]

00:49:03   an SD card reader that I would like [TS]

00:49:04   quite a lot but it would be more [TS]

00:49:06   convenient to just be able to slot that [TS]

00:49:08   thing right in the computer [TS]

00:49:09   yeah it to me is like you can solve a [TS]

00:49:12   lot like a lot of the annoyances of the [TS]

00:49:15   new of the new laptop ports are solved [TS]

00:49:18   by just having a lot of them like you [TS]

00:49:19   know like when you have four of them [TS]

00:49:20   well technically really you have three [TS]

00:49:22   of them because one of them have a power [TS]

00:49:23   plug in it but we know when you have [TS]

00:49:25   three you pass through like your diiii I [TS]

00:49:29   hear your point a hundred percent and [TS]

00:49:30   you're in dongle town and it like okay [TS]

00:49:32   regardless yeah I know well that's part [TS]

00:49:35   of the problem were all landowners in [TS]

00:49:36   dongle town my friend but I feel like [TS]

00:49:40   you like the other ports you know you [TS]

00:49:42   can you can fix a lot of the [TS]

00:49:43   inconvenience of USB ceiling laptops [TS]

00:49:45   with getting new cables for old devices [TS]

00:49:48   like you can you can you can go on you [TS]

00:49:50   know mana price grammars or whatever and [TS]

00:49:51   get inexpensive cables that have USB C [TS]

00:49:54   on one end and whatever your peripheral [TS]

00:49:56   needs on the other end and you can just [TS]

00:49:57   replace their cables and and you know [TS]

00:49:59   there's some issues with hubs and [TS]

00:50:00   multiplying those that I talked about [TS]

00:50:01   before which is still annoying but but I [TS]

00:50:03   feel like you can reduce a lot of the [TS]

00:50:04   annoyance with just like new cables but [TS]

00:50:07   if you if you need SD cards as part of [TS]

00:50:09   your workflow there's no way to reduce [TS]

00:50:11   that annoyance you're always gonna have [TS]

00:50:13   like an SD card hanging out of the side [TS]

00:50:15   of it through a cable or something like [TS]

00:50:16   that's that sucks and when it's built in [TS]

00:50:18   it sucks less so like other problems can [TS]

00:50:20   be solved with either time or cabling [TS]

00:50:22   choices or peripheral choices but not [TS]

00:50:25   having an SD card reader if you use SD [TS]

00:50:27   cards is always a pain so the reason I [TS]

00:50:30   asked this question is because I've been [TS]

00:50:31   thinking about it a lot lately and I can [TS]

00:50:33   tell you if you if you surveyed all the [TS]

00:50:34   people in my office at work they would [TS]

00:50:36   all say HDMI because every time [TS]

00:50:38   increasingly when we we land in a [TS]

00:50:40   conference room and someone needs to [TS]

00:50:41   project never mind the fact that they [TS]

00:50:43   should really with the number of Macs [TS]

00:50:45   and it's all of us they should really [TS]

00:50:46   have Apple TVs connected to every single [TS]

00:50:47   thing so we could airplay to them it [TS]

00:50:48   would solve this problem in a much nicer [TS]

00:50:49   way Steve Jobs would approve you don't [TS]

00:50:51   need an HDMI port you just need to be [TS]

00:50:53   able to airplay to everything I agree [TS]

00:50:54   Steve but you can't fight the IT [TS]

00:50:57   department anyway they would all save [TS]

00:50:59   steam [TS]

00:50:59   because it's so frustrating we all sit [TS]

00:51:00   down there and it's like we look around [TS]

00:51:02   for the one person with with the 2015 [TS]

00:51:04   laptop who can actually plug in because [TS]

00:51:06   everyone forgot their dog and it used to [TS]

00:51:09   be there was just one person with the [TS]

00:51:10   new laptop and we would laugh at them [TS]

00:51:11   and now there's like one person left [TS]

00:51:13   with the old laptop and once the old [TS]

00:51:14   laptop disappears just gonna be a bunch [TS]

00:51:16   of people sitting around unable to [TS]

00:51:17   project I don't understand why they [TS]

00:51:18   don't put the adapters for this but [TS]

00:51:19   anyway that's what people work would say [TS]

00:51:21   but that's not what I would say because [TS]

00:51:22   in my regular life if I was buying ops [TS]

00:51:23   for myself I don't need to connect the [TS]

00:51:25   HDMI so I never pick HDMI but work [TS]

00:51:27   totally would I would have said in the [TS]

00:51:30   past SD right because I do have cameras [TS]

00:51:33   that have SD cards when I go on vacation [TS]

00:51:34   I like to offload pictures from my [TS]

00:51:36   camera to my thing without a dongle it's [TS]

00:51:38   gonna be and build it in its small its [TS]

00:51:39   skinny it'll fit fine but the more I've [TS]

00:51:41   been thinking about it the more I've [TS]

00:51:42   been getting attached to the idea of [TS]

00:51:45   taking a 15-inch MacBook Pro and adding [TS]

00:51:47   MagSafe and still having the ability to [TS]

00:51:50   charge by any of the USB see things like [TS]

00:51:52   not removing that ability but adding mag [TS]

00:51:55   save as an addition because I feel like [TS]

00:51:57   you get the twofer you get MagSafe which [TS]

00:51:59   is better to trip over and stuff you get [TS]

00:52:01   as I think it was a the Jason snow and [TS]

00:52:03   maybe it was a Gruber saying you get the [TS]

00:52:05   indicator light which i think is a [TS]

00:52:06   useful feature when you have your [TS]

00:52:07   clothes laptop and you plug in to make [TS]

00:52:08   sure you see the little light that shows [TS]

00:52:10   grip up amber or green show whether it's [TS]

00:52:12   floyd charge Jerry's charging right yeah [TS]

00:52:14   it's a great feature it's not like an [TS]

00:52:16   Apple had that what fifteen years ago [TS]

00:52:18   like it's not a new thing and left up [TS]

00:52:20   this right and you also get one of your [TS]

00:52:23   ports back now you really do have four [TS]

00:52:25   ports instead of three if you want to be [TS]

00:52:27   convenience if I just have USB C charger [TS]

00:52:29   with me on vacation it could charge [TS]

00:52:30   everything you've got it but also you [TS]

00:52:33   could have the Mac safe and then the [TS]

00:52:34   only question is what are you ship in [TS]

00:52:35   the box you should MagSafe to ship USB [TS]

00:52:37   or you should both and probably Apple [TS]

00:52:38   would make you pick or something and I [TS]

00:52:40   know are we backsliding and I know max [TS]

00:52:42   they've had problems too and that's why [TS]

00:52:43   I feel like ship them both let let [TS]

00:52:46   people decide what they want to use how [TS]

00:52:48   Apple can collect stats about what they [TS]

00:52:50   use and anonymously send them back with [TS]

00:52:51   its differential privacy for how often [TS]

00:52:53   the laptops are charging via Mac save [TS]

00:52:55   versus how often they're charging by a [TS]

00:52:57   USB see I probably would get more [TS]

00:52:59   benefit out of SD but I I'm finding the [TS]

00:53:03   Toofer of getting a getting a port back [TS]

00:53:05   and having the option of MagSafe [TS]

00:53:07   irresistible and so now I'm envisioning [TS]

00:53:09   before I was envisioning Apple [TS]

00:53:11   it's laptops by adding an SD card slot [TS]

00:53:12   and now envision them adding back Mac [TS]

00:53:14   safe which i think is astronomical [TS]

00:53:16   that's likely the netting SD card slot [TS]

00:53:17   because it just it would be like egg on [TS]

00:53:19   face of like Oh Romero MagSafe we're [TS]

00:53:21   bringing it back that would be a tough [TS]

00:53:23   sell whereas SD not there's so much room [TS]

00:53:26   alongside the the edges of those 15-inch [TS]

00:53:28   laptops right it's just a giant expanse [TS]

00:53:30   with these two little tiny USBC holes an [TS]

00:53:33   SD card slot even Johnny I could [TS]

00:53:35   tolerate the Aesthetica marring of a [TS]

00:53:38   very skinny discreet SD card slot in [TS]

00:53:40   there how it looks fine on Marco's 2015 [TS]

00:53:42   MacBook Pro I think it would be fine on [TS]

00:53:45   a by 2018 model one thing also they [TS]

00:53:48   could do that that I think it probably [TS]

00:53:51   goes against their sensibilities but but [TS]

00:53:53   I think it probably shouldn't because I [TS]

00:53:55   think it's one of the biggest [TS]

00:53:55   engineering flops of the numa of new [TS]

00:53:57   lineup is that the the number of USB [TS]

00:54:01   like its it to me like one of the [TS]

00:54:03   biggest problems with these as I've said [TS]

00:54:04   numerous times is just there aren't [TS]

00:54:06   enough ports like if you're going to [TS]

00:54:08   sell us on an all USB see world ok we [TS]

00:54:11   can adapt to that over time with dongles [TS]

00:54:13   and stuff and new cables and everything [TS]

00:54:15   there still aren't enough ports [TS]

00:54:16   especially with one of them being lost [TS]

00:54:18   to power as you said like you basically [TS]

00:54:20   lose one during most practical usage for [TS]

00:54:23   most people most of the time so you know [TS]

00:54:26   like the MacBook Escape basically has [TS]

00:54:28   one port Kasey's MacBook one has no [TS]

00:54:30   ports pretty much so like and you know [TS]

00:54:34   the and the 15-inch has three and if you [TS]

00:54:36   look at and any no.13 pearls and if you [TS]

00:54:39   look at like you know what the previous [TS]

00:54:41   ones had like you could connect more [TS]

00:54:43   than that amount of things to them [TS]

00:54:44   without adapters and I feel like one of [TS]

00:54:48   the if you look at the engineering [TS]

00:54:49   behind this one of the challenges for [TS]

00:54:51   example one of the reasons why the [TS]

00:54:52   MacBook Escape only has two ports is [TS]

00:54:55   because of limitations of how many [TS]

00:54:58   Thunderbolt channels you can deliver [TS]

00:55:00   because Apple decided to make all of [TS]

00:55:02   these USB C ports also Thunderbolt three [TS]

00:55:05   ports except for the morning KC's [TS]

00:55:07   macbook one and that's a choice that [TS]

00:55:09   they made they didn't have to it is [TS]

00:55:12   possible to have a USB C port that does [TS]

00:55:15   not support Thunderbolt 3 like the one [TS]

00:55:17   in KC's might pick one hmm and so Apple [TS]

00:55:20   no trust me this is in many ways a good [TS]

00:55:22   thing it used me more of them and so hey [TS]

00:55:24   I feel like you know one of the biggest [TS]

00:55:27   ways to solve the the anoints these [TS]

00:55:28   laptops is to use if you're gonna insist [TS]

00:55:30   on USBC okay but we need more of them to [TS]

00:55:34   total including your power hole is not [TS]

00:55:37   enough if you can't make them on certain [TS]

00:55:40   models if you can't make them full-blown [TS]

00:55:42   Thunderbolt 3 ports which you already [TS]

00:55:45   can't they're already not Thunderbolt 3 [TS]

00:55:47   the MacBook one and the ones on the [TS]

00:55:48   right side of the 13-inch MacBook Pro [TS]

00:55:50   are half bandwidth or whatever it is so [TS]

00:55:52   there's already exceptions the cable [TS]

00:55:55   that comes with it that charges from the [TS]

00:55:58   brick to the computer is a USBC cable [TS]

00:56:00   that is not a Thunderbolt cable in fact [TS]

00:56:03   it's a USB 2.0 USBC cable which [TS]

00:56:05   shouldn't even exist but they do and [TS]

00:56:08   that's what it is [TS]

00:56:10   you know there's already all these [TS]

00:56:12   exceptions to what the ports can and [TS]

00:56:14   can't do in addition Thunderbolt usage [TS]

00:56:16   in practice is pretty low and it is not [TS]

00:56:21   the common case what most people are [TS]

00:56:23   plugging into these things it needs [TS]

00:56:25   either just power or power and USB it's [TS]

00:56:29   you know most of the peripherals being [TS]

00:56:31   plugged into these ports do not need [TS]

00:56:32   Thunderbolt 3 and so by Apple taking [TS]

00:56:35   taking these ports on the on mostly [TS]

00:56:37   stops except for Katie's and saying we [TS]

00:56:39   can only have as many as a Thunderball [TS]

00:56:41   controllers allow us to with this [TS]

00:56:42   chipset or whatever that's very limiting [TS]

00:56:44   to the number of ports you can have if [TS]

00:56:46   they had if they had like you know two [TS]

00:56:49   to four of them that could do [TS]

00:56:52   Thunderbolt 3 and 2 more that couldn't [TS]

00:56:55   maybe on the other side or whatever that [TS]

00:56:58   you know that's not ideal but I think [TS]

00:57:02   that's better than not having enough [TS]

00:57:03   ports to do basic things that you need [TS]

00:57:05   so I know be more complicated I know [TS]

00:57:08   they wouldn't be able to put a little [TS]

00:57:09   thunder bolt lightning bolt symbol next [TS]

00:57:11   to all of them but I think that is the [TS]

00:57:14   best compromise that we have if we're [TS]

00:57:16   gonna do in all USBC world we need more [TS]

00:57:19   of these ports and it is a waste to [TS]

00:57:22   suggest that they all need to have [TS]

00:57:24   thunder both three I mean look one of [TS]

00:57:25   them most of the time is used for power [TS]

00:57:28   and nothing else no data at all you're [TS]

00:57:32   wasting Thunderbolt 3 bandwidth on a [TS]

00:57:33   port that transfers nothing except power [TS]

00:57:37   so like obviously like you know there's [TS]

00:57:39   there's a there's a major engineering [TS]

00:57:41   inefficiency in tying Thunderbolt 3 to [TS]

00:57:44   USBC for all these laptops if you can [TS]

00:57:46   separate them you could give us way more [TS]

00:57:47   ports and when I weigh more you can give [TS]

00:57:50   us a to more ports at least some close [TS]

00:57:51   to these without having any bandwidth [TS]

00:57:53   challenges you could give away more like [TS]

00:57:55   they have they have USB inside these [TS]

00:57:56   cases you could give you could give 6 [TS]

00:57:58   USB seaports along with 4 Thunderbolt [TS]

00:58:00   ports like I felt like they have the [TS]

00:58:01   controller capacity or space inside the [TS]

00:58:03   case to put it controller they can [TS]

00:58:04   support that like USB connections are [TS]

00:58:07   cheap in the grand scheme of things yeah [TS]

00:58:09   I mean it becomes I think more [TS]

00:58:10   complicated like with like the wiring [TS]

00:58:12   and stuff if if the other ones could [TS]

00:58:13   also do some of the other alternate [TS]

00:58:15   modes like if they can take power input [TS]

00:58:17   or if they can do certain video output [TS]

00:58:19   types but because I know Thunderbolts [TS]

00:58:21   required for some of the alternate modes [TS]

00:58:23   but not all of them or it is one of [TS]

00:58:24   those Ramon's I don't know something [TS]

00:58:25   like that but like tying this to [TS]

00:58:26   Thunderbolt 3 made these ports very [TS]

00:58:30   limited and in number and probably [TS]