The Accidental Tech Podcast

264: Every Building Has Bugs


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01:00:54   thank you so much to Linode for [TS]

01:00:55   sponsoring our show there's been some [TS]

01:01:01   interesting news coming out of Apple [TS]

01:01:02   Park you know previously known as Apple [TS]

01:01:05   Campus 2 it seems that it's a hazardous [TS]

01:01:08   place to work and it seems that people [TS]

01:01:10   are running into glass walls I don't [TS]

01:01:14   even know where the genesis of this [TS]

01:01:16   story was but apparently somebody has a [TS]

01:01:18   mast I've seen a link at some point [TS]

01:01:20   somebody has amassed 911 calls that [TS]

01:01:23   relate to people walking into the glass [TS]

01:01:25   walls at Apple Park or something like [TS]

01:01:27   that [TS]

01:01:27   what's going on here I mean this is a [TS]

01:01:30   problem that almost every office [TS]

01:01:34   building that does a glass design or a [TS]

01:01:36   glass redesign has at some point I mean [TS]

01:01:41   like when I remember when I interviewed [TS]

01:01:43   as I was job seeking for the job that [TS]

01:01:46   eventually ended up being tumblr back in [TS]

01:01:49   2006 I had an interview of Bloomberg and [TS]

01:01:52   here in New York and they had all glass [TS]

01:01:55   everywhere and it was very very hard for [TS]

01:01:57   me to navigate that office like I [TS]

01:01:59   couldn't fly like like look around the [TS]

01:02:01   rooms like fine like where's the door [TS]

01:02:03   out of the room I am in like you had to [TS]

01:02:05   really look hard to see like which of [TS]

01:02:07   these walls is a door actually it was [TS]

01:02:09   very very strange I was part of the [TS]

01:02:11   interview process this part of the test [TS]

01:02:13   god I failed so many tests in that [TS]

01:02:14   interview I felt every test including [TS]

01:02:16   try to escape the room but anyway and I [TS]

01:02:21   remember it was a fairly moderate like [TS]

01:02:24   the building was fairly young at that [TS]

01:02:26   point and I remember a few the employees [TS]

01:02:27   telling me that they had to install rows [TS]

01:02:31   of logo stickers at eye level on all the [TS]

01:02:34   glass because people kept running into [TS]

01:02:36   it now as this story has played out [TS]

01:02:39   today with Apple Park we've heard so [TS]

01:02:42   many like Twitter responses and people [TS]

01:02:44   in the chat talking about it about like [TS]

01:02:46   how this happens in like every office [TS]

01:02:48   building that that does that goes with [TS]

01:02:50   all glass for all the walls inside like [TS]

01:02:51   people always earns them all the time [TS]

01:02:53   and they always have to end up you know [TS]

01:02:55   installing some kind of sticker or [TS]

01:02:56   something you know to make the glass not [TS]

01:02:58   transparent in a really obvious eye [TS]

01:03:00   level place so the fact that people are [TS]

01:03:04   running into glass with apparently no [TS]

01:03:06   decoration or insufficient decoration on [TS]

01:03:08   it is not surprising at all that is I [TS]

01:03:11   think it's a well proven thing that that [TS]

01:03:13   happens so that isn't surprising at all [TS]

01:03:16   it the only surprising part of this to [TS]

01:03:18   me and and the kind of sad part is like [TS]

01:03:20   did they not know this would happen it [TS]

01:03:23   this is not a new thing that happens in [TS]

01:03:25   glass buildings like surely someone had [TS]

01:03:28   to have told Johnny I've super along the [TS]

01:03:30   design of this like someone had to have [TS]

01:03:33   mentioned this like so how did this come [TS]

01:03:35   how does this how does the building get [TS]

01:03:38   designed with this ignored that that's [TS]

01:03:40   what I want to know like again it's like [TS]

01:03:41   it's almost like the home pod brain [TS]

01:03:42   thing it's like did they not know like I [TS]

01:03:44   don't know it it's concerning either way [TS]

01:03:46   like they should have known and this is [TS]

01:03:49   again this is a small thing this is not [TS]

01:03:51   I mean the only reason we're talking [TS]

01:03:53   about this is because we just fell on [TS]

01:03:54   the last topic and yeah it's too late to [TS]

01:03:56   start a new big topic right now [TS]

01:03:57   so you know this is not a huge topic [TS]

01:04:00   this is not a huge deal [TS]

01:04:01   just like the home pod ring not a huge [TS]

01:04:03   deal but just kind of an embarrassing [TS]

01:04:05   story that like the the interesting and [TS]

01:04:09   worrisome part about it is not the [TS]

01:04:11   actual thing that is happening but that [TS]

01:04:14   it seems to indicate a pretty [TS]

01:04:16   substantial failure in process along the [TS]

01:04:18   way like why didn't they foresee this [TS]

01:04:22   this is not a new problem everyone who's [TS]

01:04:24   ever designed or [TS]

01:04:26   worked in glass office buildings [TS]

01:04:27   probably knows about this problem so why [TS]

01:04:30   didn't they accommodate for it here but [TS]

01:04:32   it looks so nice that's that's really [TS]

01:04:35   part of it like so every every building [TS]

01:04:39   has bugs it's not like a software thing [TS]

01:04:41   but every building especially new [TS]

01:04:44   buildings large complexes they have bugs [TS]

01:04:45   whether it's like a particular way that [TS]

01:04:49   it was constructed that wears out sooner [TS]

01:04:51   than you thought or people walk in a [TS]

01:04:53   path that you didn't expect and so you [TS]

01:04:55   got to move some things around or sight [TS]

01:04:57   lines that you didn't expect to be a [TS]

01:04:59   problem when the Sun is at a particular [TS]

01:05:00   angle and reflects off this particular [TS]

01:05:01   thing goes into this person's eyes or [TS]

01:05:03   whatever like but buildings have bugs [TS]

01:05:05   and so you weren't you expect there's [TS]

01:05:06   gonna be stuff like that in every [TS]

01:05:07   building but as you said mark out like [TS]

01:05:10   for the glass stuff it's not an [TS]

01:05:12   unforeseen thing and it's not an [TS]

01:05:13   emergent property of a complex system [TS]

01:05:15   it's they varied overly picked materials [TS]

01:05:18   and they didn't just use them a little [TS]

01:05:19   bit like this is a glass heavy building [TS]

01:05:22   tremendously glass I feel like it sounds [TS]

01:05:24   like the Bloomberg thing was it's not [TS]

01:05:25   like you're just using it as an [TS]

01:05:26   interface element along with everything [TS]

01:05:29   else it's very heavily used like the [TS]

01:05:31   largest pieces of glass in the world are [TS]

01:05:33   here and it does look really good and [TS]

01:05:37   like I was tempted to say this is [TS]

01:05:39   another example of like you know form [TS]

01:05:41   over function where if I think when we [TS]

01:05:43   talked about this building for I said I [TS]

01:05:45   didn't have confidence that Johnny I've [TS]

01:05:47   really understood what it took to make a [TS]

01:05:49   functional building although I knew he [TS]

01:05:51   would make a beautiful one and this [TS]

01:05:52   might call into that category but I [TS]

01:05:54   think there is actually a functional [TS]

01:05:55   aspect to all this glass which is part [TS]

01:05:57   of the part of the utility of the [TS]

01:05:59   building is not just you know can you [TS]

01:06:02   find all the places you want to go very [TS]

01:06:04   well is there room for everything is the [TS]

01:06:06   air circulate well all those sort of [TS]

01:06:07   like what makes good user nice on a [TS]

01:06:10   building but aesthetics actually are [TS]

01:06:12   part of like any product but perhaps [TS]

01:06:13   even more so for a building allowing a [TS]

01:06:15   natural light in being inspired by the [TS]

01:06:17   views feeling like you're you know [TS]

01:06:19   inside indoors outdoors with like a [TS]

01:06:21   complete glass thing from floor to [TS]

01:06:22   ceiling gives a different feeling than [TS]

01:06:24   it would if it was just a window in a [TS]

01:06:25   wall right so there is I think a [TS]

01:06:27   functional aspect to all of this glass [TS]

01:06:29   and unfortunately a lot of the solutions [TS]

01:06:31   that fix this problem like the stickers [TS]

01:06:34   at eye level or whatever fly in the face [TS]

01:06:37   of all the advantages that you're [TS]

01:06:38   getting you [TS]

01:06:39   don't feel like you're you're outdoors [TS]

01:06:41   indoors type of thing when your [TS]

01:06:43   beautiful wall of glass is marred by a [TS]

01:06:45   bunch of Apple stickers Johnny I would [TS]

01:06:46   have a heart attack if you're just a [TS]

01:06:47   bunch of apple stickers all of these [TS]

01:06:49   things well that's what they're doing in [TS]

01:06:50   some cases is like putting you know tape [TS]

01:06:52   or anything else like it's just it's [TS]

01:06:54   gaudy it breaks up the appearance that [TS]

01:06:56   you want it kills the illusion of [TS]

01:06:59   transparency of the glass it makes [TS]

01:07:02   everything uglier and worse like I was [TS]

01:07:04   thinking they do it like they do in the [TS]

01:07:06   diving pool in the Olympics where they [TS]

01:07:08   have a constant spray of water agitating [TS]

01:07:10   the surface so you can see where the [TS]

01:07:11   surface of the water is you know for the [TS]

01:07:12   diver as they come down they just [TS]

01:07:14   something should have constant sprays of [TS]

01:07:15   water onto the onto the walls and to do [TS]

01:07:17   some one of those glass waterfall [TS]

01:07:19   effects without kind of ruined rim the [TS]

01:07:21   aesthetic as well so I don't know what [TS]

01:07:23   the solution this is because I kind of [TS]

01:07:26   understand that the glass stuff is not [TS]

01:07:30   just an aesthetic so the building looks [TS]

01:07:32   pretty I really do believe it probably [TS]

01:07:34   enhances the experience of being in the [TS]

01:07:36   building in an important way right for [TS]

01:07:39   the people in the building not the [TS]

01:07:40   people outside looking at it but I mean [TS]

01:07:45   maybe there was a little bit of wishful [TS]

01:07:46   thinking in terms of all right so we [TS]

01:07:49   know this is a problem we know people [TS]

01:07:51   run into glass a lot but after a [TS]

01:07:53   breaking-in period eventually people [TS]

01:07:57   will develop the flint reflexes or [TS]

01:07:59   something like people people will will [TS]

01:08:00   adjust their daily paths to not do this [TS]

01:08:03   it'll become more aware or this door the [TS]

01:08:05   people keep running into will make sure [TS]

01:08:06   we keep it open 24 hours a day to make [TS]

01:08:08   sure it's not a factor anymore I think [TS]

01:08:09   they might have been optimistic about [TS]

01:08:10   how much people will eventually adjust [TS]

01:08:13   to it and we'll see maybe maybe they [TS]

01:08:14   don't know you know what they should do [TS]

01:08:16   when you first walk into the building [TS]

01:08:18   just slide it a little splash screen [TS]

01:08:20   tells people hey just so you know [TS]

01:08:22   there's glass everywhere watch out walk [TS]

01:08:24   with your hands straight out in front of [TS]

01:08:26   you yeah so and probably know maybe they [TS]

01:08:30   will get used to it like this is this is [TS]

01:08:31   the growing pains of this building its [TS]

01:08:32   early days maybe people will eventually [TS]

01:08:34   get used to it [TS]

01:08:35   but if they don't the solution I think [TS]

01:08:39   if you want to keep the glasses I think [TS]

01:08:42   what you have to do is change the non [TS]

01:08:45   glass parts of the building to [TS]

01:08:47   essentially herd people to the openings [TS]

01:08:51   right [TS]

01:08:52   so you want you want the building to [TS]

01:08:55   guide you like it should be less work to [TS]

01:08:58   just go when the building wants you to [TS]

01:08:59   go and you should find yourself coming [TS]

01:09:01   to the place where the door is and the [TS]

01:09:04   door hopefully will have a handle in it [TS]

01:09:05   so you see that yes this is the place [TS]

01:09:07   where the door is right you want like [TS]

01:09:09   the idea of just having a giant [TS]

01:09:10   expansive glass that sometime is open [TS]

01:09:12   and sometimes is closed that's like [TS]

01:09:13   three football fields wide like the [TS]

01:09:15   cafeteria doors strikes me as a bad idea [TS]

01:09:17   because there's no hurting of anybody [TS]

01:09:19   and when the door is closed it looks [TS]

01:09:21   just like it's open like you know so I [TS]

01:09:23   think if you want to keep the glass you [TS]

01:09:25   have to you have to make the building [TS]

01:09:27   accommodate to us and maybe that's [TS]

01:09:29   exactly what they've been trying to do [TS]

01:09:30   everywhere and they just missed a couple [TS]

01:09:31   spots in that case they just ad need to [TS]

01:09:33   like rearrange the furniture and put a [TS]

01:09:35   different pattern on the floor and do [TS]

01:09:36   all those of the tricks that sort of [TS]

01:09:37   subtly guide you to where you where the [TS]

01:09:40   building wants you to go and flow with [TS]

01:09:42   the traffic especially with large groups [TS]

01:09:43   of people like it's easy for like one or [TS]

01:09:45   two people on a house to guide people [TS]

01:09:46   around but in a giant campus you have to [TS]

01:09:49   have large apertures to accommodate you [TS]

01:09:51   know hundreds of thousands of people [TS]

01:09:52   going to and from lunch or whatever and [TS]

01:09:54   that is the that's that's the challenge [TS]

01:09:56   they face I really really hope the [TS]

01:09:59   eventual solution is not to put a bunch [TS]

01:10:01   of bloomberg stickers and I love all [TS]

01:10:02   residents will be weird dead lumpur [TS]

01:10:04   stickers on Apple's campus because that [TS]

01:10:06   is just they're just designed failure on [TS]

01:10:08   all levels it's aesthetically gross and [TS]

01:10:10   it just it ruins all the benefits that [TS]

01:10:14   you're supposedly getting from the glass [TS]

01:10:15   so here's how you do this hold the glass [TS]

01:10:19   at exactly a 78 degree angle get a can [TS]

01:10:22   of compressed air turn the can upside [TS]

01:10:24   down like and spread the constant spray [TS]

01:10:27   of water just a constant spray of [TS]

01:10:28   compressed air going on the glass that [TS]

01:10:30   fogs it up and lets you see all of them [TS]

01:10:31   or they can do what they do then the ski [TS]

01:10:34   jumps where they put pine boughs and [TS]

01:10:35   everything they just you ever see them [TS]

01:10:36   where they go to the back flips off the [TS]

01:10:38   ski jump at the Olympics they don't want [TS]

01:10:39   the slope that they land on to be [TS]

01:10:40   completely wiped is that I can't again [TS]

01:10:42   they can't do depth perception to see [TS]

01:10:43   where it is when they flip to the air so [TS]

01:10:44   they put like dirt and and other [TS]

01:10:46   dark-colored junk all over it at least [TS]

01:10:49   that would be natural it's just just a [TS]

01:10:50   bunch of pine needles stuck to the [TS]

01:10:52   windows what if they use like like kind [TS]

01:10:54   of like fiber-optic style like light [TS]

01:10:55   guide lighting in the glass panes so [TS]

01:10:58   that all the panes of glass can eat like [TS]

01:11:00   each department can pick a different [TS]

01:11:01   like neon color that all their glass [TS]

01:11:03   will be lit with all right I got it [TS]

01:11:06   perfectly not that we're gonna [TS]

01:11:07   transition to accidental neutral quite [TS]

01:11:09   at this point but they need driver aids [TS]

01:11:11   right so if you are approaching if you [TS]

01:11:13   are approaching a glass wall to speed [TS]

01:11:15   they feel a collision is imminent the [TS]

01:11:17   glass wall should change to like in one [TS]

01:11:19   of those transparent LCD screens and say [TS]

01:11:21   warning stop wall is in front of you [TS]

01:11:23   goodness so there's some transcripts on [TS]

01:11:26   the San Francisco Chronicle website [TS]

01:11:28   dispatcher tell me exactly what happened [TS]

01:11:30   patient I walked into a glass door in [TS]

01:11:33   the first floor of Apple Park when I was [TS]

01:11:34   trying to go outside which was very [TS]

01:11:36   silly [TS]

01:11:37   dispatcher you keep breaking up you [TS]

01:11:39   walked through a glass door patient I [TS]

01:11:41   didn't walk through a glass door I [TS]

01:11:42   walked into a glass door yeah speaking [TS]

01:11:47   of those big glass doors like the I [TS]

01:11:49   guess the cafeteria doors though forever [TS]

01:11:51   like the the the eating place I'm sure [TS]

01:11:53   they don't call it a cafeteria because [TS]

01:11:54   that's not fancy enough but like has [TS]

01:11:56   like what four story or three story high [TS]

01:11:58   glass doors that way some astronomical [TS]

01:12:00   amount right and they they slide open [TS]

01:12:03   like barn doors and they're just huge [TS]

01:12:06   expanses of glass and I was thinking [TS]

01:12:08   about this about a month ago looking at [TS]

01:12:10   the pictures of really you know the for [TS]

01:12:11   the final building being constructed now [TS]

01:12:14   I'm sure this building have me haven't [TS]

01:12:15   been constructing California has all [TS]

01:12:17   sorts of like earthquake readiness stuff [TS]

01:12:19   built into it because surely the codes [TS]

01:12:20   require that and surely Apple would do [TS]

01:12:22   that right and they consider the [TS]

01:12:23   possibility that these doors cause [TS]

01:12:25   earthquakes when they open they're very [TS]

01:12:27   simple it's very it's very well [TS]

01:12:29   lubricated mechanism it's almost [TS]

01:12:30   noiseless it's beautiful but and I know [TS]

01:12:34   glass bends right but these are very [TS]

01:12:37   large very heavy pieces of glass and [TS]

01:12:40   probably the last place I would want to [TS]

01:12:41   be during an earthquake is near one of [TS]

01:12:44   these giant sheets of glass because I [TS]

01:12:46   don't want a chunk of glass falling from [TS]

01:12:49   four stories up onto my head to run a [TS]

01:12:51   house budgets like safety grass and [TS]

01:12:53   breaks into small pieces or just from [TS]

01:12:54   the sheer weight like forget about [TS]

01:12:56   sharpness pretended to stay completely [TS]

01:12:57   dull because it's safety glass and [TS]

01:12:59   breaks into small pieces it's like a [TS]

01:13:01   clear Rock landing on your head from [TS]

01:13:03   four stories up which i think is a you [TS]

01:13:06   know maybe also problem in skyscrapers [TS]

01:13:08   were in you're on the outside of them [TS]

01:13:09   like the glass shatters or whatever and [TS]

01:13:11   falls down under the street and kills [TS]

01:13:12   people but it just I would love to know [TS]

01:13:15   exactly what the earthquake mitigation [TS]

01:13:19   techniques were to make it safe to have [TS]

01:13:21   four stories of like inch-and-a-half [TS]

01:13:23   nate thick glass like 17 tons of it just [TS]

01:13:26   sitting where people could be right next [TS]

01:13:29   to it people could literally be touching [TS]

01:13:30   it or in the process of walking to it at [TS]

01:13:32   the time it starts to wobble and parts [TS]

01:13:34   of it crack off and fall down to the [TS]

01:13:35   ground so seems a little bit scary to me [TS]

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01:15:08   they can show you how much you're [TS]

01:15:09   outside brokerage accounts and maybe [TS]

01:15:11   costing you in fees and under invested [TS]

01:15:13   cash as well investing involves risk [TS]

01:15:16   listeners can get up to one year managed [TS]

01:15:18   free for more information visit [TS]

01:15:20   betterment comm slash ATP that's [TS]

01:15:22   betterment comm slash ATP thank you to [TS]

01:15:25   Behrman for sponsoring our show [TS]

01:15:30   so let's do some ask ATP vamsee writes [TS]

01:15:33   they would apparently like to know all [TS]

01:15:35   sorts of rules protocol and strategies [TS]

01:15:39   with regard to windowing in our cars so [TS]

01:15:42   first how do you use the windows in your [TS]

01:15:44   car always closed always open I will [TS]

01:15:47   start and we'll do a round robin I tend [TS]

01:15:49   to leave the windows and the doors [TS]

01:15:52   closed almost always unless it is a [TS]

01:15:54   particularly nice day in which case they [TS]

01:15:57   will usually be opened all the way it is [TS]

01:16:00   very rare that I have anything but a [TS]

01:16:01   binary treatment of my windows one [TS]

01:16:03   example of when they are cracked however [TS]

01:16:04   which is very rare is if I have any sort [TS]

01:16:07   of food in the car in which case I will [TS]

01:16:10   try to ventilate the outside air by [TS]

01:16:12   cracking the windows and we will get to [TS]

01:16:15   Sun roofs in a Sun in a moment so John [TS]

01:16:18   how do you use the windows in your car [TS]

01:16:20   does your car have a sunroof I don't [TS]

01:16:21   recall no can't because I've had to [TS]

01:16:23   remember that well I thought I knew you [TS]

01:16:25   preferred not I couldn't remember if it [TS]

01:16:26   did or not nope ok so with your windows [TS]

01:16:30   windows I'm almost always an always [TS]

01:16:32   closed person mostly for two reasons one [TS]

01:16:36   yes the hair mussing because it is a [TS]

01:16:38   real thing like if I have my windows [TS]

01:16:41   open and I show up at work my hair will [TS]

01:16:42   be crazy yep and to most of the cars [TS]

01:16:47   that I've owned have required a complex [TS]

01:16:50   series of baffles to not have weird [TS]

01:16:52   thrumming noises you got to have [TS]

01:16:53   alternative windows open one on one side [TS]

01:16:55   one on the other front end stuff like [TS]

01:16:57   that it doesn't make for a pleasing [TS]

01:17:00   auditory environment even if I don't [TS]

01:17:02   care about my hair so I'm an all clothes [TS]

01:17:03   person most of the time [TS]

01:17:05   all right Marco most of the time they're [TS]

01:17:09   closed because most of the time the [TS]

01:17:11   temperature outside is not pleasant in [TS]

01:17:13   one direction or the other [TS]

01:17:14   but when the temperature outside is [TS]

01:17:16   pleasant and if I'm if I'm at low speeds [TS]

01:17:19   like around town like not on the highway [TS]

01:17:21   I'll open a window here and there [TS]

01:17:23   sometimes I will just crack the window [TS]

01:17:24   to feel the cool air cleanse my every [TS]

01:17:27   pore as I pour my poor heart out but [TS]

01:17:29   usually I will just open one either all [TS]

01:17:31   the way or not at all [TS]

01:17:32   I don't know that song I didn't [TS]

01:17:34   reference KZ no I did not I could tell [TS]

01:17:36   it was a reference I had no idea what it [TS]

01:17:38   was was it is it fish can't be Fisher's [TS]

01:17:40   too many words No [TS]

01:17:41   all right and the follow-up of course is [TS]

01:17:43   how to use the sunroof and then vamsee [TS]

01:17:45   adds this I really don't get just got a [TS]

01:17:47   car with one Australian summers boiling [TS]

01:17:49   so I haven't had a chance to open it [TS]

01:17:51   again I will start and we'll do another [TS]

01:17:54   round robin I love my sunroof I will [TS]

01:17:57   open it in truly absurd well maybe not [TS]

01:18:00   absurd but in temperatures where I [TS]

01:18:01   probably shouldn't have a ton sunroof [TS]

01:18:02   open so as soon as it hits about 50 [TS]

01:18:04   degrees Fahrenheit and I don't care what [TS]

01:18:06   that isn't Celsius because Celsius is [TS]

01:18:07   stupid for ambient air temperature don't [TS]

01:18:09   at me whatever 50 degrees is in stupid [TS]

01:18:12   units I will start opening my sunroof [TS]

01:18:14   from time to time and it will be open [TS]

01:18:17   pretty much until it hits about 80 [TS]

01:18:20   degrees and that's about when I decide [TS]

01:18:21   that air conditioning is absolutely [TS]

01:18:23   required and there's no other way about [TS]

01:18:25   it Marco let's start with you this time [TS]

01:18:27   I use the sunroof during the winter a [TS]

01:18:31   lot during spring and fall sometimes and [TS]

01:18:33   during summer not at all because I [TS]

01:18:35   believe I previously mentioned I don't [TS]

01:18:37   have that much hair and I get a head [TS]

01:18:38   burn really easily if it gets a lot of [TS]

01:18:40   Sun I keep a hat in my car for mainly [TS]

01:18:42   for the purpose of being able to use my [TS]

01:18:44   sunroof but in the summertime sometimes [TS]

01:18:47   I just don't want to have the liability [TS]

01:18:50   of the hat blowing off and so I I get a [TS]

01:18:53   lot of sunroof use in the cooler [TS]

01:18:55   temperatures when when sunburn is less [TS]

01:18:58   likely or less of a bless of a concern [TS]

01:19:01   one of the favorite one of my favorite [TS]

01:19:04   things to do with the sunroof is to open [TS]

01:19:05   it during the winter because you could [TS]

01:19:08   have the heat on in the car but have the [TS]

01:19:11   sunroof partially or totally open so [TS]

01:19:14   much for saving the environment am i [TS]

01:19:15   right compared to what your car is [TS]

01:19:18   burning compared to what my car is [TS]

01:19:19   burning I think so I'm turning on the [TS]

01:19:21   heat and then opening the sunroof well [TS]

01:19:23   and so and you can also do things like [TS]

01:19:25   you know just use like the heated seat [TS]

01:19:26   but not use the air heating so you are [TS]

01:19:29   kept warm but you have fresh air so [TS]

01:19:32   there's lots of options of combining the [TS]

01:19:33   sunroof with heat or you know the lack [TS]

01:19:37   of heat in the car but is a very [TS]

01:19:39   pleasant thing to have fresh air coming [TS]

01:19:42   in but to not be freezing your butt off [TS]

01:19:45   in the winter that to me is the best [TS]

01:19:48   reason to have a sunroof is is the use [TS]

01:19:49   of it in the wintertime I will say that [TS]

01:19:52   a that a good solid floor he [TS]

01:19:54   with the with the ventilated roof is a [TS]

01:19:56   nice thing I don't usually do that it's [TS]

01:19:59   not something I enjoy often but you know [TS]

01:20:02   having the heat coming up from the floor [TS]

01:20:03   rising up and then escaping out the [TS]

01:20:05   sunroof is actually quite pleasant John [TS]

01:20:08   if you had a sunroof hypothetically do [TS]

01:20:11   you ever fancy a time that you would use [TS]

01:20:13   it my parents cars have had them so I've [TS]

01:20:17   had them enough to know whether I use [TS]

01:20:19   them and basically I treated like a [TS]

01:20:21   window in general no I don't want it [TS]

01:20:22   open for the same reasons hair mussing [TS]

01:20:24   and throwing noises I don't and now that [TS]

01:20:27   my hair is thinning on top I'd probably [TS]

01:20:28   have the same problem with with head [TS]

01:20:31   burn so I think I would probably not use [TS]

01:20:34   it even if I had it head burn is not fun [TS]

01:20:36   as someone who is far and away the [TS]

01:20:39   fussiest about his hair I can tell you [TS]

01:20:41   that I can rock the sunroof reasonably [TS]

01:20:44   frequently without worrying about my [TS]

01:20:46   hair getting too messed up whereas that [TS]

01:20:48   is not typically true with the side [TS]

01:20:50   windows if I open them more than just a [TS]

01:20:52   crack [TS]

01:20:52   you got more product in your hair than I [TS]

01:20:54   do though oh it's pretty much welded at [TS]

01:20:56   this point there's so much junk in there [TS]

01:20:58   you know for if anybody out there feels [TS]

01:21:01   bad for me that I don't have good hair [TS]

01:21:03   just know that I don't have to worry [TS]

01:21:05   about any of that BS like my hair cannot [TS]

01:21:09   be messed up it's glorious I can I can [TS]

01:21:12   leave all the windows down and this [TS]

01:21:14   hundred of open and drive on the highway [TS]

01:21:17   and yet just tons of wind to the point [TS]

01:21:20   where like if I have like a loose tissue [TS]

01:21:22   in the back of my car it might blow out [TS]

01:21:24   the window so I have to like make sure I [TS]

01:21:26   like everything is like anchored down in [TS]

01:21:29   the vehicle but I can I can drive in [TS]

01:21:31   pure wind like that which is awesome in [TS]

01:21:34   the summertime when you drive a nice to [TS]

01:21:35   the beach by the way and it's wonderful [TS]

01:21:37   and I guess where I'm going and my hair [TS]

01:21:40   isn't messed up because it can't be it's [TS]

01:21:42   amazing I go to the shower and it's dry [TS]

01:21:44   like it's done I just walk out of the [TS]

01:21:47   bathroom it's wonderful like so yeah [TS]

01:21:50   don't feel bad for me as these two were [TS]

01:21:52   talking about comparing the amount of [TS]

01:21:54   product in their hair and and how they [TS]

01:21:55   can't enjoy wind movement because it [TS]

01:21:58   might mess up their hair that's only for [TS]

01:22:00   going to work I'm glad you broke the [TS]

01:22:01   beach Beach is the one time where I do [TS]

01:22:03   open windows and I probably [TS]

01:22:04   a sunroof just to smell the beach air [TS]

01:22:07   and because no one should ever care [TS]

01:22:08   where the hair looks like when they're [TS]

01:22:09   going to or from the beach and I don't [TS]

01:22:10   fair enough [TS]

01:22:12   and finally when do you turn your [TS]

01:22:13   recirculation on or recirculating the [TS]

01:22:16   the air conditioning I don't typically [TS]

01:22:19   mess with this unless there is an odor [TS]

01:22:21   or I'm in a hurry to get the the car [TS]

01:22:24   either colder or warmer my car does have [TS]

01:22:28   an automatic recirculation feature I [TS]

01:22:30   have no idea if that's like a complete [TS]

01:22:32   placebo or if it actually does you know [TS]

01:22:34   flip recirculation on and off and so [TS]

01:22:37   typically I just leave that on but in in [TS]

01:22:39   Prior cars I would only ever really turn [TS]

01:22:41   recirculation on if I was in a real big [TS]

01:22:44   hurry to reach the temperature I wanted [TS]

01:22:46   John I think it's your turn now I am a [TS]

01:22:48   manual control even though my car has [TS]

01:22:51   automatic climate control I have manual [TS]

01:22:53   control or I'm a micro manager of [TS]

01:22:55   climate controls and recirculation [TS]

01:22:56   different i preemptively turn it on when [TS]

01:22:59   I know I'm going to be coming to a stop [TS]

01:23:01   behind a smoker because smokers are [TS]

01:23:02   disgusting and flickers dependent other [TS]

01:23:04   windows which they leave cracked open so [TS]

01:23:06   we're the entire world can enjoy their [TS]

01:23:07   stupid smoke and then they flick the [TS]

01:23:09   cigarette that their have done without [TS]

01:23:10   the window to I put three Sark on again [TS]

01:23:14   preemptively when I'm you know gonna be [TS]

01:23:16   stopped behind a big truck that's [TS]

01:23:18   spewing its stinky exhaust basically I [TS]

01:23:19   mean I know there's going to be an order [TS]

01:23:21   from the outside I turned on and the the [TS]

01:23:24   final time that I do it is yeah in the [TS]

01:23:26   summer when I want to get the car cooler [TS]

01:23:28   faster but only after I allow enough [TS]

01:23:30   fresh air in so the inside and outside [TS]

01:23:31   temperatures are equalized and in the [TS]

01:23:33   winter when my cars when my cars pour [TS]

01:23:36   heating system I can't keep up can't [TS]

01:23:40   like literally can't make the car warm [TS]

01:23:42   enough because it is so freakin cold [TS]

01:23:43   that the air coming out of the vents [TS]

01:23:46   gets appreciably warmer when I put [TS]

01:23:48   recirc on like in the really cold spell [TS]

01:23:51   that we have are it's like below zero [TS]

01:23:52   for several days in a row the car will [TS]

01:23:55   eventually warm up and be comfortable [TS]

01:23:57   enough but if you're on a shortness [TS]

01:23:59   drive where you don't have time to do [TS]

01:24:01   that you just got to put on research [TS]

01:24:02   just to get it just for me to not to be [TS]

01:24:04   freezing my boat I don't have heated [TS]

01:24:05   seats I think that would really help me [TS]

01:24:06   get around with it but that's that's [TS]

01:24:07   when I do it [TS]

01:24:08   Wow [TS]

01:24:12   I used to manually manage recirculation [TS]

01:24:16   I don't anymore because modern nice cars [TS]

01:24:21   not only do it for you and and their [TS]

01:24:23   defaults of when to use it versus when [TS]

01:24:25   not to seem pretty good but also like [TS]

01:24:28   the smoker issue I I too like one way to [TS]

01:24:31   really make me very angry is to make me [TS]

01:24:34   smell cigarette smoke for some reason [TS]

01:24:36   and but the good thing is about like and [TS]

01:24:38   I don't know if it's a Tesla and BMW [TS]

01:24:40   thing or whatever but like usually the [TS]

01:24:42   the intake air filters seem to be so [TS]

01:24:45   good on some of these cars now that I [TS]

01:24:48   don't usually smell outside smells if my [TS]

01:24:51   windows are up and my Sun roof is closed [TS]

01:24:52   now occasionally I will still smell [TS]

01:24:55   cigarette because my windows cracked or [TS]

01:24:56   something but that's coming in through [TS]

01:24:58   the window not the ventilation system so [TS]

01:25:00   I almost never have any reason to [TS]

01:25:02   manually adjust whether recirculation is [TS]

01:25:05   on or off I just let the system handle [TS]

01:25:07   it and it's fine [TS]

01:25:08   Peter Gosling writes in there seems to [TS]

01:25:11   be a lot of disappointment to slack Mac [TS]

01:25:12   client justifiably so why not stick with [TS]

01:25:14   IRC like the live show the native Mac [TS]

01:25:16   IRC clients are joy to use and aren't [TS]

01:25:19   half-baked like slack is so a little bit [TS]

01:25:20   of background slack is written using [TS]

01:25:23   electron which does not by necessity [TS]

01:25:25   means it's a pile of mean that it's a [TS]

01:25:26   pile of garbage but it turns out it is [TS]

01:25:28   in fact a pile of garbage but a little [TS]

01:25:31   known fact about slack which I probably [TS]

01:25:33   will not remember to put in the show [TS]

01:25:34   notes and say you can actually access [TS]

01:25:35   slack I chat rooms teams whatever the [TS]

01:25:40   terminology is via IRC there's an IRC [TS]

01:25:42   front-end to slack so you could use any [TS]

01:25:44   IRC client in connect to slack and [TS]

01:25:48   that's what Peters talking about where [TS]

01:25:50   this falls down is a couple of things [TS]

01:25:52   one Peter said the native Matt mac IRC [TS]

01:25:54   clients are joy to use and I must not be [TS]

01:25:57   using the ones that he's using I use [TS]

01:25:58   colloquy which is okay whatever Peters [TS]

01:26:03   using must be much better than that yeah [TS]

01:26:05   I got agree on that by the way like I IV [TS]

01:26:07   I used colloquy I've also used textual [TS]

01:26:09   and there's one more if use ones before [TS]

01:26:12   I forget what it is and I can only [TS]

01:26:14   describe any of them as okay yeah but [TS]

01:26:17   anyway so you can use IRC to get to [TS]

01:26:18   slack and the reason that I don't do [TS]

01:26:22   this well there's a couple of reasons [TS]

01:26:23   but mostly the reason the the biggest [TS]

01:26:26   reason I don't do this is because one of [TS]

01:26:27   the better things about slack and one of [TS]

01:26:29   the reasons why I do understand [TS]

01:26:30   and if I don't love the fact that they [TS]

01:26:32   use electron is that so much of their so [TS]

01:26:35   much of the things you put into a slack [TS]

01:26:37   chat will like Auto expands so think [TS]

01:26:40   about what's going on with iMessage when [TS]

01:26:41   you put a tweet in or a link to a [TS]

01:26:44   website it will try to grab like a hero [TS]

01:26:47   image or if there's a tweet with an [TS]

01:26:48   image it will grab the image and it will [TS]

01:26:50   put it right in line in that iMessage [TS]

01:26:52   conversation will slack does the same [TS]

01:26:53   thing but it does it for all sorts of [TS]

01:26:55   different data and it's really really [TS]

01:26:57   nice I mean that genuinely and that I [TS]

01:26:59   think I would really miss if I didn't [TS]

01:27:02   have that and so like another example of [TS]

01:27:04   that is say if somebody pastes in an [TS]

01:27:06   animated gif or a URL to an animated gif [TS]

01:27:09   I would want to see that inline like [TS]

01:27:11   part of what makes slack fun is that [TS]

01:27:13   kind of shucking and jiving back and [TS]

01:27:15   forth with gifts and things like that [TS]

01:27:17   and I think I would miss out on that if [TS]

01:27:19   it was just in a traditional IRC client [TS]

01:27:21   but it is a fair point [TS]

01:27:23   and maybe I should try it just to see [TS]

01:27:25   but I don't know that's that's my two [TS]

01:27:27   cents do you guys have anything to add [TS]

01:27:28   about that so I think in this contest [TS]

01:27:33   between various applications let you [TS]

01:27:36   type words to other people even if their [TS]

01:27:38   various friends to slack in the case of [TS]

01:27:40   the IRC gateway to slack or whatever [TS]

01:27:41   I think the slack application on the Mac [TS]

01:27:44   won fair and square based on its [TS]

01:27:47   features and ease of use that's what it [TS]

01:27:49   comes down to like yes IRC is existed [TS]

01:27:51   forever and yes lots of IRC clients are [TS]

01:27:53   good but slack offered a combination of [TS]

01:27:57   functionality and application that gives [TS]

01:28:00   you a front-end for that functionality [TS]

01:28:01   that is simply more attractive to most [TS]

01:28:04   people than all of the alternatives like [TS]

01:28:06   it's not like slack one accidentally or [TS]

01:28:08   because it was bundled as part of some [TS]

01:28:09   monopolistic thing and you couldn't help [TS]

01:28:11   but have slack forced down our throat [TS]

01:28:13   slack has lots of warts but it has the [TS]

01:28:16   right balance of stuff it is a fun [TS]

01:28:18   interesting easy to use application that [TS]

01:28:22   provides I think more fun and more [TS]

01:28:25   features focused on exactly what it does [TS]

01:28:27   in an IRC client and enough speed and [TS]

01:28:30   functionality that we all you know grit [TS]

01:28:33   our teeth and deal with the electron [TS]

01:28:35   weirdness and everything like this [TS]

01:28:37   because on balance it is better than all [TS]

01:28:39   those things otherwise we would still [TS]

01:28:40   all be using those things I was in tons [TS]

01:28:42   of IRC channels before slack claimed [TS]

01:28:44   and most of them have been replaced by [TS]

01:28:46   slack because that's what more people [TS]

01:28:48   want to use I can understand being in a [TS]

01:28:49   situation where it's like yeah but I [TS]

01:28:50   like the IRC you better sure but I think [TS]

01:28:53   most people did not like IRC better or [TS]

01:28:55   didn't like IRC at all which is why [TS]

01:28:57   slack is as successful as it is so I [TS]

01:28:59   think the reason we don't use it as [TS]

01:29:02   because lack is better in general one [TS]

01:29:05   Pablo Rodriguez writes in John I saw [TS]

01:29:08   your tweet about the halting problem I [TS]

01:29:09   would like to hear how you would explain [TS]

01:29:11   it so the context this was just a couple [TS]

01:29:14   of days ago and John jump in and cut me [TS]

01:29:16   off whenever you're ready quote why is [TS]

01:29:18   this program taking so long to run and [TS]

01:29:20   quote big milestone today my son's first [TS]

01:29:22   infinite loop then he asked why the [TS]

01:29:24   programming courseware website he's [TS]

01:29:25   using can't just tell him there's an [TS]

01:29:27   infinite loop instead of trying to run [TS]

01:29:28   the program as written I introduced him [TS]

01:29:30   to the halting problem but he wasn't [TS]

01:29:31   impressed so do you want to fill in any [TS]

01:29:33   other context or just jump into the what [TS]

01:29:36   is the halting problem so the context [TS]

01:29:38   here is that I tried to show my kids [TS]

01:29:41   both of my kids programming it very [TS]

01:29:44   early ages say if you're interested this [TS]

01:29:46   is the thing I can show you how to do [TS]

01:29:47   but of course me being a father they [TS]

01:29:48   don't want to have anything to do it and [TS]

01:29:50   I know how to do so fine or whatever so [TS]

01:29:51   I just laid off like they were into [TS]

01:29:53   whatever they're into but my son is in [TS]

01:29:56   eighth grade now and he's looking to [TS]

01:29:58   take he wants to take a computer science [TS]

01:30:00   course in ninth grade which is awesome [TS]

01:30:01   that it's even offered I didn't have any [TS]

01:30:02   computer science courses in my high [TS]

01:30:04   school yes they had computers but they [TS]

01:30:05   were Apple twos but anyway he's [TS]

01:30:08   interested in taking that maybe just [TS]

01:30:09   because his friends are interested it I [TS]

01:30:10   can't tell if he's really interested in [TS]

01:30:11   it but he's trying to get into an [TS]

01:30:15   advanced level computer science class [TS]

01:30:16   and he wants to have some experience so [TS]

01:30:19   he's going through this online course or [TS]

01:30:20   a thing with his friends right this is [TS]

01:30:21   all is all him right but I'm offering to [TS]

01:30:24   help him with it so that's why he's [TS]

01:30:27   doing any kind of programming stuff at [TS]

01:30:28   all and it's pretty late in the game and [TS]

01:30:30   the grand scheme of things he's got like [TS]

01:30:31   five year-olds who are writing iOS apps [TS]

01:30:32   and a lot of on stage at Apple things [TS]

01:30:34   and stuff like that and he's you know [TS]

01:30:35   he's not a precocious programmer but [TS]

01:30:37   he's getting into it and so I'm trying [TS]

01:30:40   to help them you know as laid-back way [TS]

01:30:42   as possible because you don't help too [TS]

01:30:44   much you know because like becomes [TS]

01:30:46   uncool if dad's into it whatever and he [TS]

01:30:48   did write an infinite loop and he did it [TS]

01:30:50   asked me like the course where it's like [TS]

01:30:51   running his program for it and like it [TS]

01:30:53   just was like a spinner on the web babe [TS]

01:30:54   and he's like why is it taking so long [TS]

01:30:55   he they write an infant [TS]

01:30:57   I feel like it really is a milestone [TS]

01:30:58   like the first time you do that and then [TS]

01:31:00   don't understand what the hell's going [TS]

01:31:01   on in your program specifically he was [TS]

01:31:03   he was iterating over an array and in [TS]

01:31:07   inside the loop he was adding I am to [TS]

01:31:08   the end of the array which is a pretty [TS]

01:31:10   fun way to do your first infinite loop [TS]

01:31:11   as opposed to just like forgetting to [TS]

01:31:13   check for termination condition he was [TS]

01:31:14   iterating over listed he kept growing at [TS]

01:31:15   the same pace he was iterating over it [TS]

01:31:17   so that was fun [TS]

01:31:18   apologies to the courseware website for [TS]

01:31:20   the for the infinite loop bomb my son [TS]

01:31:22   invoked on you as he opened up tab after [TS]

01:31:24   tab and tried to run the same program it [TS]

01:31:28   wasn't he didn't do a fork bomb but he's [TS]

01:31:30   not he's not up at that process level [TS]

01:31:31   yet so I did try to say actually there's [TS]

01:31:34   a general problem about this the halting [TS]

01:31:35   problem and to finally get to answer the [TS]

01:31:38   specific question how would you go about [TS]

01:31:39   explaining it part of the knowledge and [TS]

01:31:43   wisdom I'm trying to impart on him as [TS]

01:31:45   part of this is not the specifics of [TS]

01:31:46   whatever he's doing about programming [TS]

01:31:48   which I figure will come on his own but [TS]

01:31:50   how do you how do you how do programmers [TS]

01:31:54   do this how do you figure stuff out and [TS]

01:31:56   early on I want to show them if you have [TS]

01:31:58   a question about how something works the [TS]

01:32:00   magic of the Internet you know after me [TS]

01:32:02   saying you know up hill both ways how I [TS]

01:32:04   had to do it in my day so on and so [TS]

01:32:06   forth [TS]

01:32:06   you can just type your question into [TS]

01:32:08   Google and every like a Stack Overflow [TS]

01:32:09   answer like you know how to concatenate [TS]

01:32:11   strings you know in Python or whatever [TS]

01:32:13   like the answer is right there you don't [TS]

01:32:16   have to ask me you don't have to wonder [TS]

01:32:17   just type it into Google search box so [TS]

01:32:20   for the halting problem rather than me [TS]

01:32:22   trying to explain this is what the [TS]

01:32:24   halting problem is based on like my [TS]

01:32:25   memory of it from school you know or [TS]

01:32:27   just like even just in broad strokes [TS]

01:32:29   just go to the Wikipedia page for the [TS]

01:32:31   halting problem and there's like a [TS]

01:32:33   paragraph at the top it does a pretty [TS]

01:32:35   good job of explaining more or less what [TS]

01:32:36   the halting problem is in links to [TS]

01:32:37   examples and so on and so forth but the [TS]

01:32:39   idea is that you shouldn't ask your dad [TS]

01:32:41   or ask someone next to you to explain [TS]

01:32:43   what the halting problem is you are [TS]

01:32:44   empowered because you have the whole [TS]

01:32:46   internet at your fingertips to find out [TS]

01:32:48   the answer to this question quickly and [TS]

01:32:49   in a much more authoritative way than me [TS]

01:32:51   trying to you know recite it from memory [TS]

01:32:54   because if I was gonna recite it from [TS]

01:32:55   memory if I was gonna talk about the [TS]

01:32:56   halting problem on this show I almost [TS]

01:32:58   did it when I saw his question I was [TS]

01:32:59   like oh I should go to the Wikipedia [TS]

01:33:00   page and and paste the first bit but no [TS]

01:33:02   like the lesson is you this is one of [TS]

01:33:05   those things that you don't have to [TS]

01:33:06   memorize and even if you know it [TS]

01:33:08   backwards and forwards it's difficult [TS]

01:33:09   sometimes to explain something that you [TS]

01:33:11   no if you haven't like taught a course [TS]

01:33:12   into five or six times so use the [TS]

01:33:15   Internet [TS]

01:33:15   use the tools that are available to you [TS]

01:33:16   don't rely on other people to explain [TS]

01:33:18   things I haven't yet explained to him [TS]

01:33:20   about it Wikipedia being a tertiary [TS]

01:33:22   source a little crap but here we go one [TS]

01:33:25   step at a time [TS]

01:33:25   there's only so much dad that kids can [TS]

01:33:27   take in one dose all right thanks to our [TS]

01:33:30   sponsors this week [TS]

01:33:32   and we'll see you next week now the show [TS]

01:33:38   is over to be y el asesor that's Casey [TS]

01:34:13   less and a are Co AR m and T Marco [TS]

01:34:18   Arment [TS]

01:34:20   [Music] [TS]

01:34:36   [Music] [TS]

01:34:38   all right so last week we what was the [TS]

01:34:41   the Genesis the question I should have [TS]

01:34:43   left in the show notes but we were [TS]

01:34:44   talking about like cars and things and [TS]

01:34:47   rolling double zero in the chat [TS]

01:34:49   suggested something that hopefully you [TS]

01:34:52   guys have at least put two minutes of [TS]

01:34:54   thought into which I know Marko hasn't [TS]

01:34:56   and John maybe has oh no I put exactly [TS]

01:34:58   two minutes of thought into it alright [TS]

01:35:00   well that works for me what car would [TS]

01:35:02   you pick for your other hosts now I [TS]

01:35:04   didn't ask [TS]

01:35:06   rollin 0-0 nor did I clarify what do you [TS]

01:35:10   mean by that is it the car you think [TS]

01:35:13   they would enjoy the most is it the car [TS]

01:35:15   you would most like to see them in is it [TS]

01:35:17   the car that you would get to just troll [TS]

01:35:19   them and I didn't want to give you guys [TS]

01:35:23   any sort of direction about any of this [TS]

01:35:26   so I have answered the question in my [TS]

01:35:30   own way but I don't have to go first [TS]

01:35:33   this time since I was very aggressively [TS]

01:35:35   first during ask ATP so which one of you [TS]

01:35:37   would like to volunteer to tell each of [TS]

01:35:40   us what cars we should be driving I'll [TS]

01:35:43   do it if you want all right Marko feel [TS]

01:35:45   free all right this is fairly easy for [TS]

01:35:49   Casey you would have the new m3 period [TS]

01:35:51   well what's that your criteria is what [TS]

01:35:54   car would I most like to drive I guess [TS]

01:35:57   yeah my criteria basically I mean if [TS]

01:35:59   we're assuming that like you know I [TS]

01:36:00   don't have to worry about how much these [TS]

01:36:01   cars cost they're just being paid for [TS]

01:36:04   somehow and that I guess get to decide [TS]

01:36:06   which car you have then my rationale [TS]

01:36:09   here is which car would you be most [TS]

01:36:12   happy with you know what is the car that [TS]

01:36:15   you should have and so I think it's the [TS]

01:36:18   m3 done and John a little bit harder I I [TS]

01:36:24   was kind of thinking maybe the m5 or if [TS]

01:36:28   he doesn't want to go necessary that [TS]

01:36:29   large because I know I know like your [TS]

01:36:31   parking situations a little bit tight [TS]

01:36:32   over there so I figured maybe you might [TS]

01:36:36   also go with something in the 3-series [TS]

01:36:40   range maybe your dad's old 3-series that [TS]

01:36:43   you like but like a faster one [TS]

01:36:44   like like it maybe like the 335 of that [TS]

01:36:46   generation maybe something like that but [TS]

01:36:49   probably just I think John I think my [TS]

01:36:51   answer is actually gonna be just the new [TS]

01:36:53   m5 so new m3 4kc new m5 for John why for [TS]

01:36:57   me I understand your reasoning for KC [TS]

01:36:58   what's your reasoning for me like why [TS]

01:37:00   are you even picking from BMWs for me [TS]

01:37:01   well I know you wouldn't actually enjoy [TS]

01:37:03   owning a Ferrari I know that you like [TS]

01:37:07   Mercedes but I'm too young to know how [TS]

01:37:10   to select one I went with the brand that [TS]

01:37:15   I know how to use and how to pick from [TS]

01:37:17   that gives you what you want which is [TS]

01:37:20   similar to eylem which is a nice big [TS]

01:37:21   faster damn like you like those and I [TS]

01:37:24   know you're not gonna get see here's the [TS]

01:37:27   problem though I know you like stick a [TS]

01:37:28   lot and that can't you can't have that [TS]

01:37:30   in stick so maybe I try to find you an [TS]

01:37:33   f10 generation in a stick which they [TS]

01:37:36   probably made like three of those total [TS]

01:37:38   but maybe that's the right answer [TS]

01:37:41   people didn't like those those stick [TS]

01:37:42   shifts they said that the manual was not [TS]

01:37:45   very good in that car [TS]

01:37:46   yeah see this it's it's picking for you [TS]

01:37:48   is very challenging picking for case is [TS]

01:37:51   easy because I know what he wants it so [TS]

01:37:52   it's easy picking for you is is harder [TS]

01:37:55   but you know I don't think Mercedes [TS]

01:37:56   makes any sticks either that you would [TS]

01:37:58   want but I don't know no yeah I don't [TS]

01:38:01   know that but I think so I'm gonna stand [TS]

01:38:03   by my answer of the new m5 but with some [TS]

01:38:05   reservations I was proud of KC for [TS]

01:38:08   recognizing what a terrible question [TS]

01:38:09   this is saying but I don't care and I'm [TS]

01:38:14   not gonna clarify so let's just all [TS]

01:38:15   interpret the question or however that [TS]

01:38:17   we want this question is terrible [TS]

01:38:19   because it just has no parameters [TS]

01:38:20   whatsoever oh just to have a little fun [TS]

01:38:24   it's not useful anyway so if I had to [TS]

01:38:27   pick first I'd have to pick the how to [TS]

01:38:30   interpret this question but I'd say how [TS]

01:38:33   did you interpret the question I'm [TS]

01:38:35   mostly interpreting as a car I think [TS]

01:38:39   that you would enjoy that you wouldn't [TS]

01:38:41   buy for yourself it's like the [TS]

01:38:42   gift-giving type thing [TS]

01:38:43   sure okay I like that interpret um for [TS]

01:38:47   Casey I think I would go with a caiman [TS]

01:38:50   slash Boxster whichever one comes with [TS]

01:38:52   the sunroof or and or convertible 718 [TS]

01:38:54   whatever the hell it's called now or I [TS]

01:38:56   would actually maybe go with it with the [TS]

01:38:59   previous generation that's what [TS]

01:39:00   naturally aspirated because I think you [TS]

01:39:02   would really enjoy a stick-shift caiman [TS]

01:39:04   because you get that open-air driving [TS]

01:39:05   experience I think it would be a more [TS]

01:39:07   fun dynamic driving experience than all [TS]

01:39:09   of your like regular car cars and it's [TS]

01:39:11   just an all-around great car like not [TS]

01:39:13   super - super fast not too super loud [TS]

01:39:16   not as small and wimpy as a Miata which [TS]

01:39:20   I think you would also enjoy by the way [TS]

01:39:22   I thought I would [TS]

01:39:24   it's like it's like the big boy Miata so [TS]

01:39:25   I would I would go with a caiman [TS]

01:39:27   I like that choice I drove I probably [TS]

01:39:30   told the story maybe on neutral I drove [TS]

01:39:32   a Boxster S early on in the life time of [TS]

01:39:36   the Boxster's this was circa 2005 maybe [TS]

01:39:41   2006 and I think the Box had only been [TS]

01:39:44   out for a couple of years at that point [TS]

01:39:45   I might have these dates wrong but you [TS]

01:39:46   get the idea [TS]

01:39:47   and I got in that car expecting to hate [TS]

01:39:50   it oh it's a you know poor man's 911 [TS]

01:39:53   it's just garbage this is gonna be crap [TS]

01:39:56   and I loved it I couldn't believe how [TS]

01:40:00   much I loved it and that was you know [TS]

01:40:02   ten plus years ago so I can only imagine [TS]

01:40:04   I came in or you know whatever the new [TS]

01:40:06   Boxster came in like the epic a - the [TS]

01:40:09   the natural have spread one right before [TS]

01:40:10   they change to 718 it's just an amazing [TS]

01:40:12   all-around balance it's fun a not too [TS]

01:40:15   ridiculous car and you wouldn't buy it [TS]

01:40:16   for yourself because you're like oh I [TS]

01:40:17   gotta have a car that can put car seat [TS]

01:40:19   in it oh yeah but I feel like with the [TS]

01:40:21   giant shoebox thing that you've got [TS]

01:40:23   going on for the whole family it would [TS]

01:40:27   be a nice compromise of like a small [TS]

01:40:29   small ish fun interesting fast enough to [TS]

01:40:33   be cool open air kind of car nice and [TS]

01:40:36   for Marco from Marco a little bit torn [TS]

01:40:39   on this my my go-to would say and [TS]

01:40:41   especially if I'm not allowed to pick [TS]

01:40:43   from like future models because a lot of [TS]

01:40:44   people coming out with cars that I think [TS]

01:40:45   you would enjoy more than most of my [TS]

01:40:46   picks because like everyone else all the [TS]

01:40:48   other tests the competitors are coming [TS]

01:40:49   but they're not here yet so I can't pick [TS]

01:40:51   them agree mom [TS]

01:40:52   so I would go I would probably shop on [TS]

01:40:56   the Mercedes range because I truly [TS]

01:40:57   continuous ADEs perhaps more than he [TS]

01:41:01   enjoyed his m5 and so I probably go kind [TS]

01:41:06   of like what I was I'd pick up myself in [TS]

01:41:07   that preview show like it like an AMG [TS]

01:41:09   II class if I could find the right [TS]

01:41:11   balance of options and features to [TS]

01:41:13   satisfy and if not believe it or not I [TS]

01:41:15   would probably look at howdy there's [TS]

01:41:17   another brand that Marco seems to have [TS]

01:41:18   not wanted to really consider for [TS]

01:41:21   himself but I think there are models in [TS]

01:41:22   that range that he would really enjoy so [TS]

01:41:24   those would be my picks a mid-sized [TS]

01:41:26   Mercedes and if I can't find the right [TS]

01:41:27   set of options in car in model year I [TS]

01:41:29   would go Abby I think those are good [TS]

01:41:31   choices Marco thoughts it's reasonable [TS]

01:41:34   yeah I mean I haven't driven a Mercedes [TS]

01:41:37   or an Audi in a long time [TS]

01:41:39   when I have driven those cars I have [TS]

01:41:42   been incredibly unimpressed with their [TS]

01:41:45   media and navigation systems but you [TS]

01:41:48   know I would give it a shot and the [TS]

01:41:50   thing is wouldn't buy for yourself [TS]

01:41:52   because you're all electric so basically [TS]

01:41:53   all gas cars are now cars that Marco [TS]

01:41:55   wouldn't buy for himself there yeah and [TS]

01:41:58   and he had the 1m right so I feel like [TS]

01:42:01   if that was a thing that he still wanted [TS]

01:42:03   he would have gone back to I well but he [TS]

01:42:05   hasn't so that's why I'm picking like [TS]

01:42:07   regular normal size [TS]

01:42:08   you know mid-sized cars I think those [TS]

01:42:11   are good choices alright so I [TS]

01:42:12   interpreted this as what do I think [TS]

01:42:15   would be the best fit for my co-host and [TS]

01:42:19   they may or may not buy this but my my [TS]

01:42:21   rule was I couldn't just say like oh [TS]

01:42:24   well Marco just wants another Tesla so I [TS]

01:42:26   actually thought it was a little easier [TS]

01:42:29   to pick for John because the options I [TS]

01:42:32   came up with were a new mazda6 which I [TS]

01:42:35   think he would quite like and is [TS]

01:42:39   basically what you already have just a [TS]

01:42:41   different manufacturer and and I've [TS]

01:42:43   always thought the mazda6 is with there [TS]

01:42:45   was one really crummy generation which [TS]

01:42:47   is the generation after Aaron so this [TS]

01:42:49   was like late 2000s early early 2010's [TS]

01:42:52   which was not attractive at all but [TS]

01:42:54   every other monster six has always been [TS]

01:42:56   pretty attractive in my eyes and we [TS]

01:42:58   loved Aaron's Mazda 6 who treated us so [TS]

01:43:00   really really well and I think John you [TS]

01:43:01   would like that but the other thing I [TS]

01:43:03   was thinking about even though [TS]

01:43:07   III really think hatchbacks are dumb [TS]

01:43:10   sorry Europeans I think would love a GTI [TS]

01:43:12   I really think you would love a GTI John [TS]

01:43:15   I think that's definitely a car I would [TS]

01:43:18   not buy for myself [TS]

01:43:22   but do you like leaving aside the fact [TS]

01:43:24   that hatchbacks are stupid do you think [TS]

01:43:28   it with a stick I think the main thing [TS]

01:43:31   the main thing I would enjoy about a GTI [TS]

01:43:33   is the small ish size both in length and [TS]

01:43:37   width but they're not as small as they [TS]

01:43:40   used to be and they're definitely not as [TS]

01:43:41   light as they used to be so I'm not sure [TS]

01:43:43   I would get that much enjoyment out of [TS]

01:43:45   it fair enough [TS]

01:43:46   well those were my picks for for John [TS]

01:43:48   and obviously the you know the the clear [TS]

01:43:49   answer was the Ferrari which is like [TS]

01:43:51   Marco said like that would be that would [TS]

01:43:53   actually probably make John more unhappy [TS]

01:43:55   than happy exactly if you again this is [TS]

01:43:57   the question is so vague you could say a [TS]

01:44:00   Ferrari and and a mansion with the [TS]

01:44:02   heated garage to start in and say fair [TS]

01:44:06   enough [TS]

01:44:07   Marco I actually found harder because I [TS]

01:44:09   really do think that the Tesla in in in [TS]

01:44:11   the current iteration of Marco and Marco [TS]

01:44:13   version 2017 or 2018 I think this is the [TS]

01:44:16   the Model S is probably the perfect car [TS]

01:44:18   for you Marco however if I couldn't [TS]

01:44:20   choose that what would I choose and the [TS]

01:44:22   obvious answer is a brand new m5 I think [TS]

01:44:25   you would quite like that it gives you [TS]

01:44:26   the all-wheel drive that you didn't have [TS]

01:44:28   last for the last iteration it's just as [TS]

01:44:31   quick as your Tesla or Daenerys makes no [TS]

01:44:33   difference if not quicker but then I [TS]

01:44:36   thought okay what are some more [TS]

01:44:37   interesting choices and I thought to [TS]

01:44:40   myself well what about a Prius Prime [TS]

01:44:42   which is somewhat insulting and I don't [TS]

01:44:45   mean it to be but my parents have a [TS]

01:44:48   Prius Prime which I plug-in Prius and it [TS]

01:44:51   is for what it is thinking like what [TS]

01:45:04   would you if you're so bent on electric [TS]

01:45:06   then then what would I mean I guess the [TS]

01:45:09   Chevy Volt maybe but that seems like [TS]

01:45:13   you're gonna get a much worse electric [TS]

01:45:16   slash hybrid car than what he [TS]

01:45:18   now that's a bad idea and the Prius [TS]

01:45:20   Prime is that perhaps the ugliest car on [TS]

01:45:22   the road today [TS]

01:45:23   none of the Aztec is that function [TS]

01:45:29   wasn't designed to be a punishment it [TS]

01:45:31   was taking your insistence on having an [TS]

01:45:34   electric car in mind but I don't think [TS]

01:45:37   that's a terribly good answer either I [TS]

01:45:38   was just throwing it out there very [TS]

01:45:39   active conversation and then I thought [TS]

01:45:42   to myself well let me think about Marco [TS]

01:45:44   less as a driver but more is just like [TS]

01:45:48   let me think about Marcos personality [TS]

01:45:50   and disposition Marcos tends to obsess [TS]

01:45:53   over things and I have this quality in [TS]

01:45:55   me as well so I can recognize it in [TS]

01:45:56   others you know tends to obsess over [TS]

01:45:58   things and get just like really really [TS]

01:46:00   deep into something and just I'm gonna [TS]

01:46:03   explore it to the to the most extreme [TS]

01:46:05   depths and I will explore every avenue [TS]

01:46:08   of it I will know something front to [TS]

01:46:10   back in and out left and right what kind [TS]

01:46:13   of car would Marco be able to do that [TS]

01:46:17   sort of thing with you would need a car [TS]

01:46:19   that's like I don't know like an erector [TS]

01:46:22   set or like a like a like a Lego set [TS]

01:46:25   what color I know [TS]

01:46:28   Marco should have a Wrangler because you [TS]

01:46:31   could have 17 different tops you can [TS]

01:46:33   have 17 different doors you can have a [TS]

01:46:36   six-speed if you want it and you could [TS]

01:46:38   go rock crawling in in the little hills [TS]

01:46:41   and mountains of New York and you could [TS]

01:46:42   go driving off-road up you know up in [TS]

01:46:45   tips parents house you could do all [TS]

01:46:47   those things you could have different [TS]

01:46:48   winches it's imagine the fun you would [TS]

01:46:50   have Marco figuring out the exact right [TS]

01:46:52   winch you should put on the front of [TS]

01:46:54   that car and getting the is [TS]

01:46:55   extraordinarily expensive winch that [TS]

01:46:58   weighs just 5 pounds left less than the [TS]

01:47:00   one that's half the cost but you know [TS]

01:47:02   you're saving that weight and you know [TS]

01:47:04   it's better off that way imagine [TS]

01:47:05   deciding exactly how big a gas can you [TS]

01:47:08   want to put on the rear bumper for when [TS]

01:47:10   you're going off-road do you want five [TS]

01:47:11   five gallons oh no no I think I want six [TS]

01:47:14   this is like your perfect car it is [TS]

01:47:17   nothing but useless decisions that you [TS]

01:47:19   can throw oodles of money at this car is [TS]

01:47:22   made for you you're gonna get a Porsche [TS]

01:47:24   with Doodles of money and useless [TS]

01:47:27   the Wrangler is like didn't you hear the [TS]

01:47:31   discussion of head burns you can get [TS]

01:47:35   with a hardtop but I know you're not [TS]

01:47:37   going to agree with this but I stand by [TS]

01:47:39   this decision it this is what I get for [TS]

01:47:41   all the mac pro talk I get it I totally [TS]

01:47:44   well done sir [TS]

01:47:46   I have speechless I you have done it I [TS]

01:47:50   commend you excellent job I know you [TS]

01:47:57   don't have any interest in a Wrangler [TS]

01:47:58   like I get that but if you just put [TS]

01:48:00   aside the fact you have no interest in [TS]

01:48:01   the thing I want you to have interested [TS]

01:48:03   like there's so many ways you can [TS]

01:48:05   customize this you could have a soft top [TS]

01:48:07   you could have a soft top that makes it [TS]

01:48:09   look kind of like a pickup you could [TS]

01:48:11   have a hardtop you could have a hardtop [TS]

01:48:12   with a little convertible section you [TS]

01:48:14   could have a winch [TS]

01:48:15   you could have onboard air inflation [TS]

01:48:18   system you can have different spare tire [TS]

01:48:21   set up you'll mean all the different [TS]

01:48:23   things you could do to this car oh my [TS]

01:48:25   word I think it's perfect for you but [TS]

01:48:27   anyway the actual answer I have is [TS]

01:48:29   either an m5 or Hardy 63 AMG oh my god [TS]

01:48:32   like is it possible to make a custom [TS]

01:48:36   configuration of the Jeep Wrangler that [TS]

01:48:39   I would tolerate and I'm pretty sure the [TS]

01:48:41   answer is no I don't I don't think you [TS]

01:48:44   do it I challenge you to try I don't [TS]

01:48:46   think it's possible I think the problem [TS]

01:48:50   is what I really want is like a Wrangler [TS]

01:48:51   equivalent that's a sedan that's like a [TS]

01:48:54   go-fast again you know something where [TS]

01:48:55   you could mess with the tops and you [TS]

01:48:57   could have I mean you could put [TS]

01:48:58   different wheels on any car but like I [TS]

01:49:00   really stand by that you would just get [TS]

01:49:03   wrapped around the axle but I'm wrapped [TS]

01:49:06   around the axle with all these different [TS]

01:49:08   decisions you can make in all the [TS]

01:49:09   different tweaks you can make like this [TS]

01:49:10   is why I think and I feel I get I would [TS]

01:49:13   guess that you and I would enjoy camping [TS]

01:49:15   an equivalent amount and the difference [TS]

01:49:16   is you've actually gone camping and I [TS]

01:49:18   have not but that's a similar thing [TS]

01:49:20   where I could see really either of us [TS]

01:49:22   all these things I'm really just [TS]

01:49:23   projecting onto you well I could see [TS]

01:49:25   either of us obsessing over well the the [TS]

01:49:28   aluminum spoon in fork and knife set [TS]

01:49:30   ways one else but the titanium spoon [TS]

01:49:33   fork and knife set weighs a half an [TS]

01:49:35   ounce and even though it's literally ten [TS]

01:49:37   times the cost that half an ounce in [TS]

01:49:39   aggregate and aggregate adds up like [TS]

01:49:41   it's the same sort of thing right like I [TS]

01:49:43   could see you going or me going [TS]

01:49:44   ridiculous about camping equipment in [TS]

01:49:46   the same way I could see you or me going [TS]

01:49:48   ridiculous with your Tinkertoys Wrangler [TS]

01:49:51   so you forgot to expand our silly [TS]

01:49:54   unconfined question to say okay Marco [TS]

01:49:57   all of a sudden you live in the middle [TS]

01:49:59   of nowhere there are no paved roads to [TS]

01:50:01   your house and you have like hundreds of [TS]

01:50:05   acres that you have to patrol to hunt [TS]

01:50:07   for your own food then all of a sudden [TS]

01:50:08   mark was interested in a jeep wrangler [TS]

01:50:10   because he has a reason you know a [TS]

01:50:14   pretty good off-road easy to get into [TS]

01:50:17   and out of four-wheel drive vehicle to [TS]

01:50:20   wander around his property with and so [TS]

01:50:22   we can you know get out when he needs to [TS]

01:50:24   get to the hospital fifty miles away you [TS]

01:50:27   can construct a scenario which Marco [TS]

01:50:29   would want a Jeep Wrangler but the [TS]

01:50:31   scenario where he lives now is not it no [TS]

01:50:33   not even close do you know you're not [TS]

01:50:36   you're not picking up what I'm putting [TS]

01:50:37   down on this one are you surprised by [TS]

01:50:40   that no I'm not can we at least concede [TS]

01:50:44   though can you at least concede that you [TS]

01:50:46   can see that the tweak enos of it that [TS]

01:50:48   you can just just dial it in just right [TS]

01:50:50   like don't know [TS]

01:50:51   I concede nothing come on I completely [TS]

01:50:54   disagree because it's tweaking a bunch [TS]

01:50:57   of things that I don't care about it's [TS]

01:50:59   like no matter what you tweak about that [TS]

01:51:02   build I still don't want it and never [TS]

01:51:04   will like you can like it's like asking [TS]

01:51:08   me like how do I want to set the EQ for [TS]

01:51:10   my day of Matthews Band I can take a lot [TS]

01:51:14   of things look I can I love it I could [TS]

01:51:16   take a lot of the EQ that's how you [TS]

01:51:18   every band - 90 decibels that's how I [TS]

01:51:23   would set it I was proud of my response [TS]

01:51:26   dammit then I stand by it [TS]

01:51:27   but that's okay stick with the m5 that [TS]

01:51:30   was a good response [TS]

01:51:30   was a good response [TS]

00:00:00   I kind of feel like I should have just [TS]

00:00:01   left TIFF here and left the show because [TS]

00:00:03   we had so much awesome feedback about [TS]

00:00:05   how not only how great she was but how [TS]

00:00:07   much better she was than me but [TS]

00:00:11   unfortunately you guys are stuck with me [TS]

00:00:12   this week all right let's start with [TS]

00:00:15   some follow-up and Bradley Davis writes [TS]

00:00:17   in with regard to hard to hit up/down [TS]

00:00:19   arrow keys on the new MacBook Pros the [TS]

00:00:22   bottom hero of the new MacBooks is [TS]

00:00:23   shorter than the previous generation the [TS]

00:00:25   bottom really used to be taller than all [TS]

00:00:26   the other rows now it's the same height [TS]

00:00:28   huge loss in my opinion especially as a [TS]

00:00:30   programmer who uses modifier keys more [TS]

00:00:31   than your average person I didn't even [TS]

00:00:34   believe this so I measured it at work [TS]

00:00:35   and he is totally right did you guys [TS]

00:00:37   both realize that in the right up until [TS]

00:00:40   the 2016-2017 on the MacBook Pros the [TS]

00:00:43   like the spacebar and that whole row was [TS]

00:00:45   taller than all the other rows of keys [TS]

00:00:46   nope I know I'm curious hold on I [TS]

00:00:51   thought it's plausible but it can't be [TS]

00:00:53   that much bigger so I measured it it's [TS]

00:00:54   it's appreciably bigger you can you know [TS]

00:00:56   I didn't have I was using the side of a [TS]

00:00:58   credit card or whatever but you can you [TS]

00:00:59   know get a ruler and see how much bigger [TS]

00:01:01   it's but it's at least like 5% bigger I [TS]

00:01:03   don't know if I believe let me get out [TS]

00:01:05   my behemoth of Oracle so while you guys [TS]

00:01:07   get out things to measure the reason [TS]

00:01:09   this is relevant is not so much that [TS]

00:01:10   it's hard or actually but are we getting [TS]

00:01:12   out to measure I'm getting at a digital [TS]

00:01:14   caliper what are you getting at to [TS]

00:01:15   measure nevermind [TS]

00:01:16   wow this look a little bit taller it is [TS]

00:01:19   so they're saying the reason it makes a [TS]

00:01:22   difference is not because it's easier to [TS]

00:01:24   hit the spacebar or the command key or [TS]

00:01:25   anything but because the arrow keys oh [TS]

00:01:27   yeah it's a huge difference the up and [TS]

00:01:29   down our keys are jammed into a single [TS]

00:01:31   key space and I was complaining it I [TS]

00:01:32   felt that was a little bit harder to hit [TS]

00:01:33   the up figure out the up and down arrow [TS]

00:01:35   keys and the new MacBook Pros even [TS]

00:01:37   though it's like the same layout it is [TS]

00:01:38   the same layout but the with taller keys [TS]

00:01:41   each half the top half and the bottom [TS]

00:01:42   half are bigger so it makes a difference [TS]

00:01:45   particularly for the arrow keys yeah so [TS]

00:01:46   the height of the command key my 2015 is [TS]

00:01:48   17 point 8 millimeters and then the [TS]

00:01:51   height of the keys and the row above it [TS]

00:01:52   are only 15 point 2 that's surprising by [TS]

00:01:56   the way only tangentially related if you [TS]

00:01:58   ever have a longing for the 17-inch [TS]

00:02:02   MacBook Pro which I always thought was [TS]

00:02:03   just hilariously stupid but I know that [TS]

00:02:06   there are people that love it I do not [TS]

00:02:07   need to hear from you I'm just saying [TS]

00:02:09   it's not for me anyway if you ever want [TS]

00:02:11   to make your 15-inch feel like a 17 inch [TS]

00:02:13   from [TS]

00:02:13   you know the days of the past spend a [TS]

00:02:16   couple of months using exclusively [TS]

00:02:18   either a 27-inch iMac or a more [TS]

00:02:21   importantly a 12-inch MacBook adorable [TS]

00:02:24   and then bust out your work 15-inch [TS]

00:02:26   MacBook for the first time in two months [TS]

00:02:28   holy monkey that thing is enormous it is [TS]

00:02:31   just gigantic compared to the little [TS]

00:02:35   MacBook adorable that I'm used to [TS]

00:02:36   well I'll tell you what I mean like like [TS]

00:02:38   even you know during during my great [TS]

00:02:40   laptop shuffle of 2016-2017 when I for a [TS]

00:02:45   while there owned the 13-inch MacBook [TS]

00:02:47   escape that that to me is a it's such a [TS]

00:02:50   great size and I and I do intend to go [TS]

00:02:52   back to that probably in the next [TS]

00:02:53   generation whatever comes out but when I [TS]

00:02:56   was using that even after years of using [TS]

00:02:58   15 inches a lot of the time I would [TS]

00:03:01   occasionally see a 15-inch out in the [TS]

00:03:03   world and it would it would look crazy [TS]

00:03:05   to me even the brand-new like the the [TS]

00:03:07   current generation ones that are better [TS]

00:03:08   you know a little more compact in the [TS]

00:03:10   old ones once you're used to whatever [TS]

00:03:12   size you're used to anything above it [TS]

00:03:15   looks like a monster good but you know [TS]

00:03:17   by comparison yeah it it's started [TS]

00:03:21   striking the difference but that's okay [TS]

00:03:23   but today I did a half day at work from [TS]

00:03:25   for the first time since January ah half [TS]

00:03:28   congratulations yeah I was speaking of [TS]

00:03:31   work in giant laptops I you I had my [TS]

00:03:35   15-inch 2017 MacBook Pro at about 85% [TS]

00:03:39   charge and I did a one-hour meeting [TS]

00:03:43   where I projected during the meeting [TS]

00:03:45   dream my whole battery the machine [TS]

00:03:47   shutdown Wow [TS]

00:03:49   I watched it go down the whole medium [TS]

00:03:51   its WebEx the magic of WebEx like a [TS]

00:03:55   single one-hour meeting from 85 percent [TS]

00:03:57   to basically you can no longer wear in [TS]

00:03:59   your computer sorry off yeah because [TS]

00:04:01   that's you say WebEx is I don't I've [TS]

00:04:03   never used WebEx but I I assume it's [TS]

00:04:05   pretty inefficient on the CPU right we [TS]

00:04:07   need to have a special episode where we [TS]

00:04:08   just make Marco use all software and [TS]

00:04:11   then I would imagine too that you but [TS]

00:04:15   that you were plugged in you said to [TS]

00:04:16   you're projecting I was so that dooms [TS]

00:04:19   the discrete GPU was forced on the whole [TS]

00:04:21   time and so it was basically as if you [TS]

00:04:23   were playing a game and like playing [TS]

00:04:25   your GPUs on your [TS]

00:04:27   CPU is probably being maxed out because [TS]

00:04:29   it sounds like the software is terrible [TS]

00:04:30   so yeah that's gonna be about one hour [TS]

00:04:32   battery life it was bad you know I think [TS]

00:04:36   the most popular advertisements that [TS]

00:04:38   we've ever run on this show were the [TS]

00:04:39   ones that cards against Mandy did where [TS]

00:04:41   we where John was forced to try a new [TS]

00:04:43   usually garbage toaster each week I [TS]

00:04:46   think it is possible if the cards [TS]

00:04:50   against humanity' folks are listening [TS]

00:04:51   that making Marco use some piece of [TS]

00:04:54   enterprise grade software once for a [TS]

00:04:57   once per ad that might be an even more [TS]

00:05:00   popular even better segment because it [TS]

00:05:03   would be magical you would probably quit [TS]

00:05:06   the show just from just from being near [TS]

00:05:09   enterprise these sort of things that [TS]

00:05:11   John and I have to deal with every day [TS]

00:05:12   yeah I would I would make a switch to [TS]

00:05:14   patreon the trick is though that you [TS]

00:05:17   have to be forced to use them like that [TS]

00:05:20   they're mandated by the company or [TS]

00:05:21   because you have to like teleconference [TS]

00:05:23   so you need to use the only approved [TS]

00:05:24   teleconference offer that you know [TS]

00:05:25   everybody has right that's the part of [TS]

00:05:27   its not just using the software it's [TS]

00:05:29   that you have two toasters kind of work [TS]

00:05:30   because like I maybe I'll be making [TS]

00:05:32   toast anyway but there's no way Marco is [TS]

00:05:34   going to even be doing the things that [TS]

00:05:35   these that's true programs you know are [TS]

00:05:37   made to do let alone being forced to do [TS]

00:05:39   them are to be Kendall writes in if you [TS]

00:05:42   think the MacBooks arrowkey setup is bad [TS]

00:05:44   check Dells recipe for annoyance and [TS]

00:05:46   there's a link included so imagine the [TS]

00:05:49   same arrow key setup that we have in [TS]

00:05:53   brand-new MacBook Pros but just for [TS]

00:05:55   funsies let's put page up and page down [TS]

00:05:58   in the dead space between so I'm sorry I [TS]

00:06:01   guess it's not like a new MacBook Pros [TS]

00:06:02   like the previous MacBook Pros and we'll [TS]

00:06:03   put a page up and page down in the dead [TS]

00:06:05   space to the left and right of the up [TS]

00:06:07   arrow key so if you're looking at it [TS]

00:06:09   it's page up and then below that is left [TS]

00:06:12   up and down page down and below that is [TS]

00:06:15   right it looks horrible I'm sure if you [TS]

00:06:18   get used to it it's convenient but oh [TS]

00:06:19   man it does not look it's not because [TS]

00:06:22   like if you accidentally hit like see [TS]

00:06:24   it's above the arrow keys right so if [TS]

00:06:26   you accidentally hit the wrong key [TS]

00:06:27   trying to go for left you don't go more [TS]

00:06:29   left you go page up which is totally [TS]

00:06:32   unrelated to left but that's the key [TS]

00:06:35   that's near there so I would never want [TS]

00:06:37   to like fumble tooth and and what if you [TS]

00:06:39   didn't notice you fumble it and then you [TS]

00:06:40   like didn't think you actually [TS]

00:06:41   so you hit left arrow you've done left [TS]

00:06:43   one character or whatever but you don't [TS]

00:06:45   realize you're a page up from where you [TS]

00:06:46   were and it's just well it's really [TS]

00:06:48   terrible and they also overlook [TS]

00:06:50   brightness the up and down arrow keys [TS]

00:06:51   what I'm assuming that's a modifier [TS]

00:06:52   thing but it'd be kind of funny if it [TS]

00:06:54   wasn't like every time gonna move the [TS]

00:06:56   cursor up you get a little brighter you [TS]

00:06:59   can keep moving down the document but [TS]

00:07:00   eventually you can't see it anymore [TS]

00:07:03   no this this like I feel like and part [TS]

00:07:07   of the reason and I swear I'm not gonna [TS]

00:07:08   make this all about apples dumb laptop [TS]

00:07:09   keyboards but part of the reason why [TS]

00:07:11   Apple's keyboard design offenses bother [TS]

00:07:15   me so much is because we have it so good [TS]

00:07:16   in Apple and that usually their [TS]

00:07:18   keyboards don't have horrendous flaws [TS]

00:07:19   and if you look over in the PC land like [TS]

00:07:21   I mean you can get a ton of really nice [TS]

00:07:25   PC desktop keyboards but once you get [TS]

00:07:29   into laptops especially a mass-market [TS]

00:07:31   laptops especially small laptops you [TS]

00:07:33   know like you can get the big gamer ones [TS]

00:07:35   that have the built-in mechanical key [TS]

00:07:36   switches but like once you get down to [TS]

00:07:37   like Nats market small laptops PC [TS]

00:07:41   designs are all over the place and have [TS]

00:07:44   horrendous bad design choices about as [TS]

00:07:47   often as the worst of Apple you know we [TS]

00:07:50   just we normally are not seeing this [TS]

00:07:52   from Apple land because we don't buy [TS]

00:07:54   these things and so if we're kind of [TS]

00:07:56   spoiled that like when Apple does have a [TS]

00:07:58   generation where they really stood [TS]

00:07:59   really terrible keyboard like our heads [TS]

00:08:01   explode because we can't take it whereas [TS]

00:08:04   like on the PC side this is a [TS]

00:08:06   commonplace occurrence it's it's that [TS]

00:08:09   time so now I have a question you are [TS]

00:08:11   there in mark oh you wouldn't know this [TS]

00:08:13   but maybe John would are there like [TS]

00:08:15   rabid Dell fanboys on the way there were [TS]

00:08:17   like five ten years ago because you know [TS]

00:08:19   how like there were the Apple fanboys [TS]

00:08:22   like well us and then there were all the [TS]

00:08:24   people on the PC side they were all like [TS]

00:08:26   devout Dell people and I feel like I [TS]

00:08:28   haven't run into any of them in years do [TS]

00:08:32   they still exist I've never met someone [TS]

00:08:34   who's super into Dell we all know that [TS]

00:08:36   there are people who love ThinkPads I [TS]

00:08:37   mean in case you're one of them oh yeah [TS]

00:08:40   and let me think I mean obviously this [TS]

00:08:42   this enthusiasm for the specialty brands [TS]

00:08:44   like Alienware or Asus or even for you [TS]

00:08:47   know gaming focused stuff but Dell or HP [TS]

00:08:50   I mean the closest I can get to that is [TS]

00:08:52   I think there was a lot of brand loyalty [TS]

00:08:54   behind gateway 2000 yeah back when they [TS]

00:08:56   had the cow boxes and B and before it [TS]

00:08:58   was 2000 but that was my first computer [TS]

00:09:00   same but that but that was more of like [TS]

00:09:02   a mainstream thing and not like a [TS]

00:09:03   computer enthusiasts thing but if there [TS]

00:09:05   are Dell enthusiasts I have not run [TS]

00:09:06   across their path like my brother-in-law [TS]

00:09:08   for example was a huge Dale enthusiast [TS]

00:09:10   as much as one can be up until a few [TS]

00:09:13   years ago and then he started buying [TS]

00:09:15   surfaces surface or things I don't know [TS]

00:09:18   whatever and he's been really [TS]

00:09:20   enthusiastic about those ever since but [TS]

00:09:22   and maybe that's what they did is all [TS]

00:09:23   the Dell people went and bought surfaces [TS]

00:09:25   but I know I just had occurred to me [TS]

00:09:26   that I haven't seen anyone that's like [TS]

00:09:28   really amped for Dell in a long time [TS]

00:09:30   anyway [TS]

00:09:31   and our final bit of follow up just a [TS]

00:09:33   small anecdote from the kitchen in the [TS]

00:09:36   list household earlier tonight we were [TS]

00:09:38   Aaron was making dinner and I was doing [TS]

00:09:41   something with with Declan and oh I was [TS]

00:09:44   I I was walking around carrying Michaela [TS]

00:09:47   in a little carrier on my chest and [TS]

00:09:50   multitasking and playing breath of the [TS]

00:09:51   wild at the same time because I've [TS]

00:09:53   started to pick that up again and then [TS]

00:09:55   Declan caught wind of what I was doing [TS]

00:09:57   and he was like oh I want to watch and [TS]

00:09:58   we don't really like giving Declan a [TS]

00:10:00   whole ton of screen time if we can avoid [TS]

00:10:02   it so what I decided to do was set a [TS]

00:10:04   timer for myself and remind me not to [TS]

00:10:08   play Zelda for more than like five or [TS]

00:10:10   ten minutes while Declan was watching [TS]

00:10:11   and I was just gonna put it away this is [TS]

00:10:13   a hell of a multitask yeah well you know [TS]

00:10:15   I do what I can so so I asked the lady [TS]

00:10:18   in a tube to remind me to stop playing [TS]

00:10:21   Zelda in five minutes or something like [TS]

00:10:23   that and I think the key is that I [TS]

00:10:24   phrased it with remind which I'm not [TS]

00:10:26   sure why I did that but that's what I [TS]

00:10:28   did and she got really really confused [TS]

00:10:30   and apparently there's like a whole [TS]

00:10:32   different reminders versus timers setup [TS]

00:10:36   which makes sense but I'd never you know [TS]

00:10:38   experienced this in my week in a day [TS]

00:10:40   with you know a lady in a tube in the [TS]

00:10:42   house so anyway so I'm like going back [TS]

00:10:44   and forth with with the echo trying to [TS]

00:10:46   get it to just set what amounts it to [TS]

00:10:48   like a five minute timer and I'm you [TS]

00:10:51   know this was my fault I phrased it [TS]

00:10:52   poorly no big deal but [TS]

00:10:54   what was funny was from the kitchen I [TS]

00:10:56   hear Aaron say something along the lines [TS]

00:10:58   of oh come on Siri get your act together [TS]

00:11:01   knowing full well I was talking to the [TS]

00:11:03   echo so here it was that she was using [TS]

00:11:06   like she was she was calling the echo [TS]

00:11:09   Siri as a not derogatory the sun--the or [TS]

00:11:12   what I'm looking for but like as a like [TS]

00:11:14   a put-down you know like she was saying [TS]

00:11:16   oh this is reminding me of how terrible [TS]

00:11:19   Syria's in so many words [TS]

00:11:20   and I thought that was kind of [TS]

00:11:22   interesting because Aaron is the most [TS]

00:11:25   normal person in the list household by a [TS]

00:11:27   far margin and so it was interesting to [TS]

00:11:30   me to see her kind of associate and [TS]

00:11:32   equate a crummy voice experience with [TS]

00:11:36   Siri because you know early on I thought [TS]

00:11:39   that and I was reflecting on this [TS]

00:11:41   briefly on Twitter earlier early on I [TS]

00:11:43   actually thought Siri was extremely [TS]

00:11:45   impressive like like the first year - I [TS]

00:11:47   thought Siri was really good and then it [TS]

00:11:49   seemed like everyone else started to [TS]

00:11:51   either create their own voices [TS]

00:11:52   assistance or make their own voice [TS]

00:11:55   assistance really a whole lot better and [TS]

00:11:57   ever since the first year or two when [TS]

00:12:00   series brand new I've really been [TS]

00:12:02   unimpressed as we've talked about on the [TS]

00:12:03   show more than once and as we've used [TS]

00:12:06   the echo for more and more things I've [TS]

00:12:08   been more more impressed by it so a [TS]

00:12:09   silly example of that we were listening [TS]

00:12:12   to vinyl we were listening to the album [TS]

00:12:13   thriller the terrible song the girl is [TS]

00:12:16   mine came on which is a collaboration [TS]

00:12:18   between McCartney and Jackson and I [TS]

00:12:20   asked I asked the lady a tube something [TS]

00:12:23   along the lines of how much older is [TS]

00:12:25   Michael jack all right I'm sorry it's [TS]

00:12:27   Paul McCartney the Michael Jackson and [TS]

00:12:28   she knew exactly what I was talking [TS]

00:12:30   about and gave me the answer and I think [TS]

00:12:31   was like 16 years and I think I had even [TS]

00:12:33   asked if I recall correctly I'd asked if [TS]

00:12:36   Michael Jackson were alive today how old [TS]

00:12:38   would he be and I thought that was [TS]

00:12:40   stretching a bit like I was not gonna be [TS]

00:12:42   surprised if the lady in the tube would [TS]

00:12:44   not know what the crap I was asking and [TS]

00:12:46   sure enough she gave me an answer [TS]

00:12:48   couldn't tell you what it was offhand [TS]

00:12:49   but she gave me an answer and that like [TS]

00:12:51   if I haven't tried it but if I ask Siri [TS]

00:12:53   how old Michael Jackson be today I would [TS]

00:12:56   be very surprised if Siri had any darn [TS]

00:12:58   idea what I was talking about and the [TS]

00:13:00   fact that I don't think even think it's [TS]

00:13:01   worth trying is itself an indication of [TS]

00:13:04   my lack of confidence in Siri well [TS]

00:13:07   next time you ask one of those questions [TS]

00:13:09   and you're and you're impressed or not [TS]

00:13:10   impressed by by happy echo does take out [TS]

00:13:13   your phone rest here the same thing it [TS]

00:13:14   is it is kind of useful as commentators [TS]

00:13:17   and enthusiasts in this field to do that [TS]

00:13:18   and compare like you know how are these [TS]

00:13:20   things doing with the things that I what [TS]

00:13:22   that I think I should ask them because I [TS]

00:13:24   found whenever I do that I do find the [TS]

00:13:26   echo devices to have better answers [TS]

00:13:30   faster more of the time but they don't [TS]

00:13:34   always get them and Siri doesn't always [TS]

00:13:36   not get them you know it's just it's a [TS]

00:13:38   series average is worse for me but but [TS]

00:13:41   the the Alexa devices are actually not [TS]

00:13:44   perfect either they just have better [TS]

00:13:46   averages I do I do think they like going [TS]

00:13:50   back to the to the beginning of the [TS]

00:13:51   story though I just I wish that these [TS]

00:13:55   devices handled the the basic like the [TS]

00:13:59   basic PDA functions like the things that [TS]

00:14:02   like all computing hardware and stuff [TS]

00:14:05   have tried to do since the beginning of [TS]

00:14:06   time that almost everyone needs [TS]

00:14:09   reminders alarms [TS]

00:14:11   timers calendar like these are very [TS]

00:14:14   basic things that everything should be [TS]

00:14:18   able to do these days and the fact that [TS]

00:14:21   like you know and the echo devices I [TS]

00:14:23   think do a pretty good job on a timer [TS]

00:14:25   front that I think their timer support [TS]

00:14:26   is excellent their alarms are basically [TS]

00:14:28   just like timers they're excellent as [TS]

00:14:30   well [TS]

00:14:31   iPhones and and you know I stuff as we [TS]

00:14:34   as we talked about with the home pod [TS]

00:14:35   long she's not having multiple timers or [TS]

00:14:37   name time or things like that like [TS]

00:14:38   that's still so far behind and it just [TS]

00:14:40   seems like that like that stuff is not [TS]

00:14:42   that hard from a programming perspective [TS]

00:14:44   like that isn't that hard [TS]

00:14:46   it just seems it's it seems baffling to [TS]

00:14:49   me that anything any of these like a [TS]

00:14:52   voice assistant services or devices [TS]

00:14:53   launch these days without totally [TS]

00:14:56   nailing reminders timers alarms and was [TS]

00:15:01   your own calendar like those should be [TS]

00:15:03   easy and at least like calendar I can [TS]

00:15:05   kind of understand if any of them don't [TS]

00:15:08   because you have to like connect two [TS]

00:15:09   different services and maybe you don't [TS]

00:15:11   they don't support the one you use or [TS]

00:15:12   you haven't set it up or whatever but [TS]

00:15:14   like reminders should be local on device [TS]

00:15:16   if they if they don't have any kind of [TS]

00:15:18   same thing set up like that that's easy [TS]

00:15:19   you know remind me at this time too [TS]

00:15:21   do this like they just they should just [TS]

00:15:22   treat that as a timer and it's like the [TS]

00:15:24   fact that anything that is that simple [TS]

00:15:26   to do doesn't work properly on any of [TS]

00:15:30   these things it should be kind of [TS]

00:15:31   embarrassing I think we discussed the in [TS]

00:15:33   the past on this topic I'm still waiting [TS]

00:15:35   for like forget about how far beyond [TS]

00:15:38   Syria may be and its own but I'm still [TS]

00:15:40   waiting for the next logical step in [TS]

00:15:42   this well I guess this two one is the [TS]

00:15:45   advancement of the vocabulary [TS]

00:15:46   surrounding the things Marco just said [TS]

00:15:49   echo and Google home are pretty good and [TS]

00:15:52   as you know as Casey found you just [TS]

00:15:53   phrase it the way you think and it'll [TS]

00:15:55   mostly figure it out but the next [TS]

00:15:56   logical step is some and I think then [TS]

00:15:59   maybe the reason this is so difficult [TS]

00:16:01   that are require more Hardware locally [TS]

00:16:03   is some some context awareness to allow [TS]

00:16:06   the beginnings of a conversation about [TS]

00:16:08   things because although these devices [TS]

00:16:12   are flexible about how we request the [TS]

00:16:14   things you can phrase it a different way [TS]

00:16:15   someone somewhere that it ends up being [TS]

00:16:17   single command single response there is [TS]

00:16:20   no semblance of a conversation for the [TS]

00:16:22   most part except for in very rudimentary [TS]

00:16:24   things will ever ask for confirmation or [TS]

00:16:26   something or sometimes cereal ask for [TS]

00:16:29   basic clarification but I would rather [TS]

00:16:31   be able to speak in him even more [TS]

00:16:33   offhand manner clarifying with a series [TS]

00:16:36   of grunts yeah that's necessary right [TS]

00:16:39   like you interact with people like that [TS]

00:16:40   there is that there is context like that [TS]

00:16:42   the thing doesn't entirely forget about [TS]

00:16:44   the interaction you had three seconds [TS]

00:16:46   ago when you make some other requests [TS]

00:16:48   that it can figure out what you mean oh [TS]

00:16:49   yeah I forgot also blah blah blah that [TS]

00:16:52   hasn't forgotten the the previous [TS]

00:16:54   context just basic conversation thing [TS]

00:16:57   I'm not saying is you know it's got to [TS]

00:16:58   have deep conversations with me and my [TS]

00:16:59   name saying has to be like Eliza right [TS]

00:17:00   but I feel like that's the next logical [TS]

00:17:03   step into this right if Apple still [TS]

00:17:06   can't even do multiple timers by the [TS]

00:17:08   time the competitors get to the [TS]

00:17:11   beginnings of a conversation phase we'll [TS]

00:17:13   be lucky if Apple is being able to do [TS]

00:17:16   the basics of all the things Marco [TS]

00:17:18   listed in a flexible way a real-time [TS]

00:17:22   follow-up I did ask Siri you know how [TS]

00:17:24   old would Michael Jackson be today and I [TS]

00:17:25   got a web search so no surprise there [TS]

00:17:28   the trick for it by the way the trick [TS]

00:17:31   for doing comparisons you got to make [TS]

00:17:33   sure you were to make [TS]

00:17:34   exactly the same way to be fair because [TS]

00:17:36   I think that's the whole thing like I [TS]

00:17:37   try to when I speak to the various [TS]

00:17:39   cylinders I tried to just not think [TS]

00:17:41   about syntax and just say whatever [TS]

00:17:42   occurs to me because that's the test [TS]

00:17:44   like a phrase it's a however I wanna [TS]

00:17:45   phrase it but you have to remember how [TS]

00:17:47   you phrased it which is convenient [TS]

00:17:48   because it's recording your voice you'll [TS]

00:17:50   play it back Casey that's all I hear [TS]

00:17:52   remember how you phrase that and then do [TS]

00:17:55   it word-for-word to Siri just to be fair [TS]

00:17:57   yeah because you may say it a different [TS]

00:17:59   way to Siri because now you're thinking [TS]

00:18:00   about it and everything and if Siri gets [TS]

00:18:01   wrong on one phrasing it's very [TS]

00:18:03   sensitive to the exact position of you [TS]

00:18:04   know all the things in the sentences or [TS]

00:18:06   whatever we respond to this week by [TS]

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00:18:20   that shops plans and delivers your [TS]

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00:18:30   very easy to use you can choose your [TS]

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00:18:34   your schedule if you need to skip a week [TS]

00:18:36   or even many weeks at a time you can [TS]

00:18:38   just pause your account for as long as [TS]

00:18:39   you'd like right in their app or on [TS]

00:18:41   their website and all hello fresh [TS]

00:18:43   ingredients come pre measured and handy [TS]

00:18:45   labelled and meal kits so you know [TS]

00:18:47   exactly which ingredients go with which [TS]

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00:18:57   variety of chef curated recipes that [TS]

00:18:59   change weekly there's lots of options [TS]

00:19:01   here as well [TS]

00:19:02   they also they even have three totally [TS]

00:19:04   separate plans to choose from classic [TS]

00:19:06   veggie and family classic of course is a [TS]

00:19:08   variety of meat fish and seasonal [TS]

00:19:10   produce veggie is all vegetarian recipes [TS]

00:19:12   with plant-based proteins grains and [TS]

00:19:14   seasonal produce and family as quickly [TS]

00:19:16   easy meals with wonderful flavor the [TS]

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00:19:26   it's wonderful not having to plan dinner [TS]

00:19:28   every single night or having to spend [TS]

00:19:30   money on takeout every night or worrying [TS]

00:19:32   about gathering ingredients and having [TS]

00:19:33   to waste a lot of them week after week [TS]

00:19:35   so check out hellofresh today $30 off [TS]

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00:19:45   week of hell [TS]

00:19:46   fresh thank you so much - hello fresh [TS]

00:19:48   for sponsoring our show so apparently [TS]

00:19:55   there's going to be an onboarding screen [TS]

00:19:58   for every single damn app on future [TS]

00:20:01   versions of iOS we've seen a little of [TS]

00:20:04   this trickle out over the last few [TS]

00:20:06   months and how do you pronounce this [TS]

00:20:08   it's a gear may Rambo mr. Rambo mr. [TS]

00:20:13   Rambo who is underscore inside on [TS]

00:20:15   Twitter he first jumped into my radar [TS]

00:20:19   screen by being one of the people that [TS]

00:20:21   was tag teaming with Steve trout and [TS]

00:20:23   Smith during the home pod firmware I [TS]

00:20:27   don't know [TS]

00:20:28   picking about or you know the hyenas [TS]

00:20:31   went and and picked at the home pod [TS]

00:20:33   firmware but anyways he had tweeted [TS]

00:20:35   earlier Apple is busy adding onboarding [TS]

00:20:38   screens to every single iOS feature and [TS]

00:20:39   here's a screenshot of welcome to videos [TS]

00:20:41   browse your library watch anytime [TS]

00:20:43   anywhere enjoy extras etc and mr. Rambo [TS]

00:20:47   if you please has been going through [TS]

00:20:48   other iOS features and finding similar [TS]

00:20:50   things I don't get this I don't think [TS]

00:20:54   it's necessarily bad even though in any [TS]

00:20:57   time I get asked to make an onboarding [TS]

00:21:00   screen I always fight tooth and nail to [TS]

00:21:02   avoid it but I mean for for novice users [TS]

00:21:06   or new users I don't think that's [TS]

00:21:07   necessarily bad but what do you guys [TS]

00:21:09   think about this let's start with Marco [TS]

00:21:10   as a user when I am when I just install [TS]

00:21:14   an iOS update and I get these screens in [TS]

00:21:18   every app I try to use I'm annoyed by [TS]

00:21:20   them I I don't like them as a user from [TS]

00:21:24   Apple's point of view though from from [TS]

00:21:25   the developer point of view like I see [TS]

00:21:27   that side as well because I'm a [TS]

00:21:28   developer and I've never had one of [TS]

00:21:30   these screens in any of my apps but I [TS]

00:21:32   kind of need them sometimes because when [TS]

00:21:36   you when you're updating your software [TS]

00:21:40   it's really hard to communicate to [TS]

00:21:43   people when things have changed in a way [TS]

00:21:45   that is helpful and not annoying and and [TS]

00:21:50   and they will actually you know see or [TS]

00:21:51   hear or you know remember this is a very [TS]

00:21:54   hard problem and so there have been lots [TS]

00:21:57   of times where I [TS]

00:22:00   make a change and I'll you know mention [TS]

00:22:02   it on the Twitter account or I'll write [TS]

00:22:04   a blog post about it or something but [TS]

00:22:06   the fact is like some tiny percentage of [TS]

00:22:08   my audience actually looks at those [TS]

00:22:10   things like most of the users of the app [TS]

00:22:12   don't know when I've change anything I [TS]

00:22:14   can put things in the app store update [TS]

00:22:16   notes which I do but no one sees those [TS]

00:22:18   either for the most part because [TS]

00:22:20   everyone Auto updates and no one ever [TS]

00:22:21   looks at the notes so it's it's really [TS]

00:22:25   hard to communicate feature changes and [TS]

00:22:28   improvements and and you know UI changes [TS]

00:22:30   that aren't immediately obvious it's [TS]

00:22:32   very hard to communicate that to an [TS]

00:22:34   existing user base new users it isn't a [TS]

00:22:36   problem as much because new users you [TS]

00:22:38   know a they don't care what how things [TS]

00:22:39   were before they got there so you don't [TS]

00:22:41   have to tell them what things have [TS]

00:22:42   changed and be new users tend to be more [TS]

00:22:45   exploratory they'll like poke through [TS]

00:22:46   settings screen stuff to select what the [TS]

00:22:47   app can do so if you just added some [TS]

00:22:49   settings or added some new features like [TS]

00:22:51   they'll find them as they poke around [TS]

00:22:52   the whole the whole rest of the app but [TS]

00:22:53   how you communicate this to existing [TS]

00:22:56   users is always a challenge [TS]

00:22:57   so Apple faces the same problems than [TS]

00:23:01   any other fail / does which is you know [TS]

00:23:03   some small percentage of users of Apple [TS]

00:23:05   devices pay attention when they like [TS]

00:23:07   announce a new feature in a keynote or [TS]

00:23:09   on on apple.com or whatever else but [TS]

00:23:12   most of their customers don't see that [TS]

00:23:14   and if even even the ones that do don't [TS]

00:23:16   all remember it by the time they're [TS]

00:23:18   actually using these things so Apple has [TS]

00:23:20   the same problem that every other app [TS]

00:23:21   developer has which is how do they [TS]

00:23:23   communicate changes to their app or even [TS]

00:23:27   do they communicate changes to their app [TS]

00:23:29   which is a valid question to ask or do [TS]

00:23:31   they just kind of let the app stand on [TS]

00:23:33   its own and let people figure it out so [TS]

00:23:35   this is Apple I think trying you know [TS]

00:23:39   trying a new way of doing this so far [TS]

00:23:41   they've really not communicated changes [TS]

00:23:43   to the apps in the app stem cells [TS]

00:23:45   they've usually just made the changes [TS]

00:23:47   mention it in you know press events and [TS]

00:23:49   stuff and that's it and people just kind [TS]

00:23:50   of find them when they when they update [TS]

00:23:52   and this is a different approach this is [TS]

00:23:55   them saying you know what let's put up [TS]

00:23:56   these little helpful sheets the first [TS]

00:23:58   time you launch some of these apps [TS]

00:23:59   saying hey here's what's new in this app [TS]

00:24:00   in this version of iOS again I don't [TS]

00:24:04   love these as a user but I see why they [TS]

00:24:08   do it it solves a problem and it's not a [TS]

00:24:12   great problem but it's it's a [TS]

00:24:14   problem nonetheless and it solves it in [TS]

00:24:16   not a great way but it might be like the [TS]

00:24:19   least crappy way we've thought of so far [TS]

00:24:21   so I don't object very strongly I see [TS]

00:24:26   what they're trying to do it's annoying [TS]

00:24:28   when I go to do something I have to go [TS]

00:24:30   dismiss a screen instead of like doing [TS]

00:24:32   the thing actual into that to do but [TS]

00:24:33   that's a one-time annoyance and so if [TS]

00:24:36   overall it helps people you know find [TS]

00:24:39   stuff I guess I'm okay with that this is [TS]

00:24:43   part of I mean the screenshots here from [TS]

00:24:46   a phone right but they might do some [TS]

00:24:49   other things in the iPad I don't know [TS]

00:24:50   but part of the problem they're solving [TS]

00:24:55   here is caused by the fact that the [TS]

00:24:58   screens are just so darn small compared [TS]

00:24:59   to a computer screen like in the [TS]

00:25:01   personal computer world we've always had [TS]

00:25:03   I mean there's a long history in the [TS]

00:25:06   personal computer world the splash [TS]

00:25:07   screen [TS]

00:25:07   remember those where they were just put [TS]

00:25:09   up a big box that puts the name of the [TS]

00:25:11   application and maybe some credits and [TS]

00:25:13   like some loading stuff for you to watch [TS]

00:25:15   while your application takes a year in [TS]

00:25:16   day to launch right that transition on [TS]

00:25:20   the desktop - well the general move away [TS]

00:25:22   from loading screens if you see a [TS]

00:25:24   loading screen you know you're either [TS]

00:25:25   using like Microsoft for an Adobe [TS]

00:25:26   product or you're like back in time [TS]

00:25:28   somewhere most desktop applications on [TS]

00:25:30   the Mac anyway have moved far far away [TS]

00:25:32   from any kind of splash screen right but [TS]

00:25:34   there is a trend that started you know [TS]

00:25:36   maybe a decade ago probably led by [TS]

00:25:38   office or some other things to give you [TS]

00:25:40   that screen I don't know what you call [TS]

00:25:41   it that's probably a name for it where [TS]

00:25:44   it shows a bunch of template's or like [TS]

00:25:46   the first-run experience like tutorial [TS]

00:25:48   click through next next next thing to [TS]

00:25:50   show you screen shots of the app it's [TS]

00:25:52   called ubi the out of box experience oh [TS]

00:25:54   my god it's not coming out of a box yeah [TS]

00:25:58   but yeah so that kind of thing and [TS]

00:26:00   sometimes it doesn't even go away [TS]

00:26:01   sometimes like in an office it's the [TS]

00:26:02   preference you have to say every time I [TS]

00:26:04   launch you know Excel don't show me the [TS]

00:26:06   thing with a bunch of Excel templates [TS]

00:26:07   I just don't show me that just open it [TS]

00:26:10   and like you know I can handle it myself [TS]

00:26:12   but in all cases in a desktop [TS]

00:26:14   application on the Mac especially a [TS]

00:26:17   buddy most desktop platforms there's a [TS]

00:26:20   place that you can go to learn more [TS]

00:26:24   about what this application can do [TS]

00:26:26   whether it's to help make [TS]

00:26:27   you or like Apple guide in the old days [TS]

00:26:29   like there's some standard way to say [TS]

00:26:31   what can I do in this application I know [TS]

00:26:34   I see a bunch of menus up there but you [TS]

00:26:36   know help me out and help very some [TS]

00:26:38   application application sometimes it's [TS]

00:26:39   just a limited thing that you can search [TS]

00:26:42   but some applications have really [TS]

00:26:43   comprehensive help or even if they just [TS]

00:26:44   Chuck you to a website I think the the [TS]

00:26:47   main thing that these screens are [TS]

00:26:49   answering for new users who again they [TS]

00:26:51   don't have to be told about changes or [TS]

00:26:53   anything is what can I do in this [TS]

00:26:56   application so if we look at that [TS]

00:26:57   welcome to videos thing that in this [TS]

00:26:59   tweet here it's not really telling you [TS]

00:27:01   what changes last version it's like [TS]

00:27:03   where's the video app do because if you [TS]

00:27:05   just launch it forget the screen what is [TS]

00:27:06   the first screen you see when you launch [TS]

00:27:07   videos especially if you actually have [TS]

00:27:09   no videos that's always the problem on [TS]

00:27:10   iOS like what do you show when there's [TS]

00:27:11   no stuff it's not really clear what you [TS]

00:27:15   would use this application for so this [TS]

00:27:16   is where you differ [TS]

00:27:17   you know browse your library I find [TS]

00:27:19   purchases and rentals you know watch [TS]

00:27:20   anytime anywhere play videos over Wi-Fi [TS]

00:27:22   or cell you download to watch offline [TS]

00:27:23   and enjoy extras right I mean I would if [TS]

00:27:29   I had to describe what you're doing the [TS]

00:27:30   videos app I wouldn't have put that and [TS]

00:27:31   enjoy extra thing but that's an [TS]

00:27:32   important piece of information people [TS]

00:27:34   might not know oh there might be special [TS]

00:27:37   features associated with something I [TS]

00:27:39   purchased and I can watch them here too [TS]

00:27:41   and then it's so it's important to just [TS]

00:27:44   convey that basic information but [TS]

00:27:46   unfortunately unlike the desktop say [TS]

00:27:48   what you're like most people and like [TS]

00:27:50   yeah yeah like Marco said this is [TS]

00:27:51   generally an annoyance and if you look [TS]

00:27:53   in the Apple's old you know human [TS]

00:27:55   interface guidelines they'd be like [TS]

00:27:56   don't stop your user from doing what [TS]

00:27:59   they set out to do by interrupting them [TS]

00:28:00   with the thing that that you know just [TS]

00:28:03   before you do what you want to do I want [TS]

00:28:04   to tell you something about the videos [TS]

00:28:05   that was like men oh yeah yeah I'm not [TS]

00:28:07   whatever you're trying to tell me I [TS]

00:28:08   don't care just let me get to the thing [TS]

00:28:09   I want to do and you reflexively hit the [TS]

00:28:11   continue button before you even register [TS]

00:28:13   any words on the page right which I [TS]

00:28:15   expect that to happen a lot but unlike [TS]

00:28:18   in a desktop app you know how do you get [TS]

00:28:21   this screen back if later you're [TS]

00:28:23   wondering okay something I can do in the [TS]

00:28:25   videos that were what is this video you [TS]

00:28:26   happy even for you can't go to the help [TS]

00:28:28   menu and say show me that first run [TS]

00:28:30   experience thing again like I don't even [TS]

00:28:32   know if there is a way to get this back [TS]

00:28:33   once you've dismissed it other than [TS]

00:28:34   waiting for the next OS update or [TS]

00:28:36   something or resetting your ear thing [TS]

00:28:38   and it's because there's just no [TS]

00:28:40   standardized place [TS]

00:28:41   iOS applications probably because the [TS]

00:28:43   screen is so small to say where do I go [TS]

00:28:45   to get help about this application or [TS]

00:28:47   will there ever even be help within this [TS]

00:28:49   application is it always something I [TS]

00:28:51   have to do elsewhere and then but but [TS]

00:28:53   not a thing that happens in the app and [TS]

00:28:56   the final bit that I think Apple is [TS]

00:28:58   leaning on here is the wish you were [TS]

00:29:01   here people down at the bottom of this [TS]

00:29:02   Apple's new little logo for privacy that [TS]

00:29:05   shows two people shaking hands with each [TS]

00:29:07   other part of that is marketing and that [TS]

00:29:10   Apple wants to emphasize is one of its [TS]

00:29:12   competitive advantages which is for [TS]

00:29:15   every application that you launched this [TS]

00:29:16   an Apple application we care about your [TS]

00:29:19   privacy we'll tell you exactly how we're [TS]

00:29:20   not using your information in a creepy [TS]

00:29:22   way and and implicitly how everyone else [TS]

00:29:25   is who doesn't have the similar [TS]

00:29:26   disclosure is using your information in [TS]

00:29:28   a creepy way so you should use Apple [TS]

00:29:29   stuff that little logo I think Apple is [TS]

00:29:32   trying to associate with the good [TS]

00:29:34   information that you'll find linked from [TS]

00:29:36   it is like when you see that logo that's [TS]

00:29:37   Apple reminding you that they're the [TS]

00:29:38   probably is a company that doesn't do [TS]

00:29:40   creepy things and tap here on the small [TS]

00:29:42   text to find out exactly how non creepy [TS]

00:29:44   we are and the only way you get that in [TS]

00:29:46   people's faces is if you put that in [TS]

00:29:48   people's faces otherwise you know in the [TS]

00:29:50   past Apple has not been doing creepy [TS]

00:29:53   things with your data but there is no [TS]

00:29:55   way as a user of these applications that [TS]

00:29:57   you know that because you launched them [TS]

00:29:59   they just show whatever their initial [TS]

00:30:00   screen is and there's no indication in [TS]

00:30:01   the application of exactly how creepy [TS]

00:30:03   and applicate it is or isn't [TS]

00:30:04   and so how Paul is relying on the fact [TS]

00:30:06   that you trust them enough to believe [TS]

00:30:08   them when they tell you that by the way [TS]

00:30:09   we're not doing creepy stuff and they [TS]

00:30:11   want to remind you of that so I have [TS]

00:30:14   similar mixed feelings to Marco about [TS]

00:30:15   the screen and that I understand the [TS]

00:30:16   reasoning behind it but I but I think it [TS]

00:30:20   is it is difficult to for it to fulfill [TS]

00:30:23   its purpose because it's probably so [TS]

00:30:25   easy to dismiss quickly because there's [TS]

00:30:27   no way to get it back after you've done [TS]

00:30:28   that and because it interrupts the user [TS]

00:30:32   from doing what they wanted to doing yet [TS]

00:30:34   I think most new users especially would [TS]

00:30:37   benefit from not reflexively dismissing [TS]

00:30:40   the screen from actually reading the [TS]

00:30:41   three little bullet points so they know [TS]

00:30:43   why you would ever want to launch the [TS]

00:30:45   videos app or whatever now it can be [TS]

00:30:48   taken to extremes here we have this a [TS]

00:30:50   follow-up create from a micro sergeant [TS]

00:30:52   that shows that what's new in clock [TS]

00:30:55   yeah we're the only item is this splash [TS]

00:30:57   screen literally just the splash screen [TS]

00:30:58   what do you want from us but it still [TS]

00:30:59   got the privacy bring up the bottom it [TS]

00:31:01   was that real I assumed that was a [TS]

00:31:03   Photoshop yeah it's fake but it's funny [TS]

00:31:05   but like where does it where does this [TS]

00:31:08   end so similar to the trend of desktop [TS]

00:31:10   applications all opening up with like a [TS]

00:31:12   template library create a new document [TS]

00:31:14   pick from one of these 17 templates like [TS]

00:31:16   just no just get out of my face right [TS]

00:31:17   this type of thing can be annoying and [TS]

00:31:20   if Apple does it it may encourage other [TS]

00:31:23   people to do it and if every new iOS [TS]

00:31:25   application you launched put one of [TS]

00:31:28   these screens up it really amplifies the [TS]

00:31:31   the you are stopping me from doing what [TS]

00:31:33   I'm trying to do factor and it makes [TS]

00:31:36   people even more quick on the draw to [TS]

00:31:40   reflexively dismiss these things and it [TS]

00:31:42   further emphasizes the fact that if you [TS]

00:31:43   do reflexively dismiss it there's [TS]

00:31:45   probably no standard way to get it back [TS]

00:31:47   so I think this is a difficult problem [TS]

00:31:50   that Apple is solving in a not-so-great [TS]

00:31:51   way but I do understand why they're [TS]

00:31:53   doing it yeah I mean like it's really [TS]

00:31:56   hard you know as it's like it's really [TS]

00:31:57   hard to figure out how to communicate [TS]

00:32:00   change like this in your app but I think [TS]

00:32:03   like yeah I think you know what I [TS]

00:32:04   mentioned initially and what you guys [TS]

00:32:05   kind of confirmed and clarified for me [TS]

00:32:06   is like I think the biggest reason why I [TS]

00:32:08   don't like these things is that it is [TS]

00:32:10   almost never a good time when I see them [TS]

00:32:13   it's like no I didn't come here to read [TS]

00:32:15   what's new I came here to write [TS]

00:32:17   something down really fast or do [TS]

00:32:19   something like you know it's it - I came [TS]

00:32:21   here doing a task that I don't have time [TS]

00:32:24   right now to explore all the new [TS]

00:32:27   features that you did for me and get to [TS]

00:32:29   get through your marking language like [TS]

00:32:30   the problem is like you know you know [TS]

00:32:33   what percentage of the time and when [TS]

00:32:34   people are first seen this is going to [TS]

00:32:35   be that kind of context or the [TS]

00:32:37   christendom breeze right by it even if [TS]

00:32:39   people have time we are so conditioned [TS]

00:32:42   to dismiss those screens that were not [TS]

00:32:43   going to remember you know things that [TS]

00:32:44   are on it you know it's one of the one [TS]

00:32:48   of the most sad realities of interface [TS]

00:32:49   design but this has been true forever [TS]

00:32:51   and will always be true is that nobody [TS]

00:32:53   reads anything like anything you're [TS]

00:32:55   explaining by just like a couple of [TS]

00:32:56   bullet points a text nobody will read it [TS]

00:32:59   the very small handful to do won't [TS]

00:33:01   remember it and so explaining things [TS]

00:33:05   with text is just not very effective [TS]

00:33:08   it's not you [TS]

00:33:08   should never rely on that ultimately the [TS]

00:33:11   best way to solve the problem of how do [TS]

00:33:15   you communicate changes in your app is [TS]

00:33:17   with the design of the app itself this [TS]

00:33:20   isn't always possible this isn't always [TS]

00:33:21   practical but ideally the changes should [TS]

00:33:25   either be like not worth mentioning [TS]

00:33:27   because the user doesn't care if it's [TS]

00:33:28   like oh we under the hood change it's [TS]

00:33:30   like well the user doesn't care [TS]

00:33:31   great dude do the other changes makes [TS]

00:33:33   you happy it makes your users happy that [TS]

00:33:34   like things are faster or don't crash [TS]

00:33:36   whatever else great don't need to [TS]

00:33:38   mention that or it's like new features [TS]

00:33:40   in which case like those will make [TS]

00:33:41   themselves apparent in the interface as [TS]

00:33:42   the user is using them it's hard these [TS]

00:33:45   days not only is it hard on touchscreens [TS]

00:33:47   because as you mentioned like they're so [TS]

00:33:48   small that makes it hard for a lot of [TS]

00:33:51   features to be visible because you don't [TS]

00:33:54   have space on the screen to have like a [TS]

00:33:56   toolbar button for everything the app [TS]

00:33:57   can do but also modern design trends are [TS]

00:34:03   such that you try to hide as much as [TS]

00:34:06   possible in the main interface you try [TS]

00:34:09   to make the main interface like as empty [TS]

00:34:11   as possible everything looks super [TS]

00:34:14   sparse and open the way Apple would [TS]

00:34:16   phrase that is maximize your content [TS]

00:34:19   they wouldn't say you're hiding things [TS]

00:34:21   they would say you're allowing the [TS]

00:34:22   content they've said with so many it so [TS]

00:34:24   many sessions the content maximizing the [TS]

00:34:27   content not minimizing UI but in effect [TS]

00:34:29   you are hiding everything else if you're [TS]

00:34:31   putting the content in front and that I [TS]

00:34:34   think gets to what you were saying with [TS]

00:34:35   you you know this is not a good time [TS]

00:34:37   application to be telling me about your [TS]

00:34:38   features right that's the beauty of the [TS]

00:34:41   help menu when the user seeks out an [TS]

00:34:44   item in the help menu that is their task [TS]

00:34:46   at that point they're trying to learn [TS]

00:34:48   more about the application that is [TS]

00:34:49   exactly the time you should tell them [TS]

00:34:50   more but there is no standardized [TS]

00:34:53   interface element in iOS for almost [TS]

00:34:55   anything like that it's part of the [TS]

00:34:57   beauty of iOS that each application gets [TS]

00:34:58   the entire screen back from the single [TS]

00:35:00   testing model and maximizing the content [TS]

00:35:02   all those are good trends but the lack [TS]

00:35:04   of really any standardized interface [TS]

00:35:06   element aside from the status bar which [TS]

00:35:08   at least we know you can use to scroll [TS]

00:35:09   to the top most of the time really does [TS]

00:35:12   hurt discoverability if there was some [TS]

00:35:15   kind of standard help widget that was [TS]

00:35:17   the same across all apps that would be [TS]

00:35:20   the perfect place to stash this because [TS]

00:35:22   when people [TS]

00:35:22   Apted they would be seeking out [TS]

00:35:23   information about your application at [TS]

00:35:25   that moment but it in the absence of [TS]

00:35:27   that even if even if you have a great [TS]

00:35:29   help widget in your app no one knows [TS]

00:35:30   what it means or where it is or what it [TS]

00:35:32   does because it's not standardized right [TS]

00:35:33   and so we're forced to throw this in [TS]

00:35:37   people's faces otherwise they will [TS]

00:35:38   literally never see it oh yeah and and [TS]

00:35:40   you know and part of that like you know [TS]

00:35:42   a lot of a lot of I don't know people [TS]

00:35:45   who haven't been around this stuff that [TS]

00:35:47   long you know the kids these days or a [TS]

00:35:50   lot of a lot of assumptions are made [TS]

00:35:52   about current design trends that people [TS]

00:35:55   project as universal design rules that [TS]

00:35:58   have always and will always be the best [TS]

00:36:00   and and the fact is right now we are in [TS]

00:36:04   you know I'd say probably the the [TS]

00:36:07   three-quarters point of a trend of ultra [TS]

00:36:09   minimalism everywhere and the fact is [TS]

00:36:12   that's just a style that's it that's [TS]

00:36:14   been in fact it's been in style for a [TS]

00:36:15   little while we have a little more of it [TS]

00:36:17   to go probably that isn't necessarily [TS]

00:36:20   the only or best way to design apps a [TS]

00:36:23   lot of the minimalism of iOS apps and [TS]

00:36:27   interfaces and getting out of the way [TS]

00:36:28   for the content was born of limitations [TS]

00:36:31   of the original iPhone hardware being a [TS]

00:36:33   really small screen but as phones have [TS]

00:36:36   gotten significantly bigger as also [TS]

00:36:39   we've added things like iPads and [TS]

00:36:41   possibly you know Mac through Bridge [TS]

00:36:44   layers this fall we hope you know as [TS]

00:36:46   we've added larger screens and more [TS]

00:36:48   capability and everything the ultra [TS]

00:36:51   minimalist thing doesn't necessarily [TS]

00:36:52   work or doesn't carry over as well also [TS]

00:36:55   the software like iOS started from zero [TS]

00:36:58   with software I started with like every [TS]

00:37:00   software gonna be one point out here and [TS]

00:37:02   so no there weren't a lot of features in [TS]

00:37:05   most apps for a long time and there [TS]

00:37:07   still aren't on iOS apps but many apps [TS]

00:37:09   now are pushing those boundaries and [TS]

00:37:11   have developed over the last decade into [TS]

00:37:13   very feature-rich [TS]

00:37:15   very capable apps and the conventions of [TS]

00:37:20   ultra minimalist you know hide [TS]

00:37:23   everything design while they still look [TS]

00:37:26   very nice they suffer greatly from [TS]

00:37:29   discoverability and an affordances of [TS]

00:37:32   like you know showing people what is [TS]

00:37:33   possible or how to how to use things [TS]

00:37:36   and this is again this is just a design [TS]

00:37:39   trend of hide everything that won't last [TS]

00:37:43   forever you know and and I honestly I [TS]

00:37:46   think it's almost over because I think [TS]

00:37:48   it's it's many usability flaws are [TS]

00:37:51   really piling up and it's resulting in [TS]

00:37:54   people having to do bad hacks like those [TS]

00:37:57   splash screens you know like that's [TS]

00:37:59   those are terrible hacks you know like I [TS]

00:38:02   frequently tell the story about like [TS]

00:38:03   when I first made the magazine app I [TS]

00:38:05   thought it would be a good design [TS]

00:38:06   principle to not need a settings screen [TS]

00:38:08   and so I didn't have 11.0 and I tried I [TS]

00:38:11   tried to get it I was just okay there's [TS]

00:38:12   no settings anywhere or there's no [TS]

00:38:14   settings screen right there anywhere [TS]

00:38:16   let me just design the app to not need a [TS]

00:38:18   settings screen wouldn't that be great [TS]

00:38:19   wouldn't that be clean and modern and [TS]

00:38:21   everything and the fact is to not have a [TS]

00:38:24   settings screen I had to jump through [TS]

00:38:26   hoops and the hoops I jumped through [TS]

00:38:29   were worse than just having a setting [TS]

00:38:32   screen and this is a very important like [TS]

00:38:35   you know lesson that I learned at that [TS]

00:38:37   time and a metaphor that had that I [TS]

00:38:40   think is widely applicable by the way I [TS]

00:38:42   still haven't listened every time I mean [TS]

00:38:43   I have a stoop I have a significant [TS]

00:38:46   design problem in overcast right now [TS]

00:38:48   that I need to revert on the Now Playing [TS]

00:38:49   screen just guess how many emails I get [TS]

00:38:52   per day from people asking how to change [TS]

00:38:54   the speed it's I have a significant [TS]

00:38:58   problem that I need to redesign there [TS]

00:39:00   but in our efforts to make things clean [TS]

00:39:03   and simple and minimal usability suffers [TS]

00:39:08   big time and I think we're finally [TS]

00:39:11   starting to realize that but it's still [TS]

00:39:13   an open question of how we are going to [TS]

00:39:16   solve that going forward I think it's [TS]

00:39:19   not just a design problem as obvious [TS]

00:39:21   there's the obvious design thing and [TS]

00:39:22   Apple isn't emphasizing that you know [TS]

00:39:24   make make your content give it give it [TS]

00:39:27   focus make it the primary thing you know [TS]

00:39:28   it's the thing that people care about [TS]

00:39:29   most people use all the features yeah [TS]

00:39:30   I'm mostly good but especially on larger [TS]

00:39:34   iOS devices which may include phones you [TS]

00:39:36   know they're getting bigger at least [TS]

00:39:37   they'll sell the SE but especially on [TS]

00:39:39   iPads potentially even larger things [TS]

00:39:42   part of it is up to the OS to provide [TS]

00:39:46   standardized elements for things and [TS]

00:39:49   a set of standardized elements you need [TS]

00:39:51   for a 3.5 inch phone screen is not the [TS]

00:39:54   same for the set of standardized [TS]

00:39:55   elements that you need to make a really [TS]

00:39:56   great application on a 12 point 9 inch [TS]

00:39:58   iPad and getting back to the help menu [TS]

00:40:01   not that I'm saying that they should add [TS]

00:40:02   a menu bar but if you leave it up to [TS]

00:40:06   even if this trend the design trend ends [TS]

00:40:09   and everybody stops doing everything [TS]

00:40:10   minimal and they start adding just [TS]

00:40:12   toolbars and palettes everywhere if [TS]

00:40:14   there is no standardization for that the [TS]

00:40:18   toolbars and palettes in every [TS]

00:40:19   application will be wildly different and [TS]

00:40:21   users still won't know where to go for [TS]

00:40:23   common functions like finding the help [TS]

00:40:25   or any kind of guide or and you know any [TS]

00:40:27   trend towards that or whatever may be I [TS]

00:40:29   think one of the poster children for [TS]

00:40:31   this was I forget what version it was [TS]

00:40:33   but a couple of releases ago apples [TS]

00:40:35   photos application that would launch and [TS]

00:40:38   it would show like a highlight or mark [TS]

00:40:41   up with things circled in yellow pen all [TS]

00:40:43   over the screen with one of those [TS]

00:40:44   overlays the worst I was at photos I [TS]

00:40:47   know iMovie did that but it might have [TS]

00:40:49   been lots of applications do this but [TS]

00:40:52   because yeah they're they're not they're [TS]

00:40:55   not going super minimal because a lot of [TS]

00:40:57   those applications particularly Apple in [TS]

00:40:59   that I'm thinking of that I can't [TS]

00:41:00   remember the chatroom will tell me in a [TS]

00:41:01   second they have tons of controls on the [TS]

00:41:03   screen there are a lot of buttons maybe [TS]

00:41:05   the minimalism is like a why aren't the [TS]

00:41:07   buttons labeled they're all icons which [TS]

00:41:08   is why they're so damn inscrutable but [TS]

00:41:10   they were everywhere there was like 50 [TS]

00:41:12   of them on the screen and then they [TS]

00:41:13   would circle them all with pen and say [TS]

00:41:15   use this for this use this for this use [TS]

00:41:17   this for this use this for this use it's [TS]

00:41:18   like no one's ever gonna remember that [TS]

00:41:20   no one's ever gonna read that no one's [TS]

00:41:22   ever gonna be able to figure out how to [TS]

00:41:23   bring it back and the reason you need it [TS]

00:41:25   is because without that overlay nobody [TS]

00:41:27   knows what any of those icons do because [TS]

00:41:28   there is no standardization for you know [TS]

00:41:30   toolbars for common functionality and [TS]

00:41:32   it's somewhat like the Mac had the [TS]

00:41:34   luxury of not having the sort of [TS]

00:41:37   Cambrian explosion of applications that [TS]

00:41:39   iOS did because a lot of the conventions [TS]

00:41:42   let's say in graphics applications on [TS]

00:41:43   the Mac it was like seeded by a Mac [TS]

00:41:46   Paint and evolved slowly through like [TS]

00:41:49   super paint and the Adobe applications [TS]

00:41:51   to establish over the course of several [TS]

00:41:54   important formative years the standard [TS]

00:41:57   language for tools and design [TS]

00:41:59   applications if you see a little Mickey [TS]

00:42:01   Mouse glove [TS]

00:42:02   everyone knows that's like the grabber [TS]

00:42:03   thing if you see a paint bucket with [TS]

00:42:06   paint pouring out of it everyone knows [TS]

00:42:07   what that does like I'm so glad that you [TS]

00:42:10   know that those those widgets have you [TS]

00:42:12   know whoever owned the copyright on the [TS]

00:42:14   first ones those didn't aggressively [TS]

00:42:15   pursue it and say you can't use a paint [TS]

00:42:16   bucket in your application because it [TS]

00:42:18   wasn't Adobe who did it first it was [TS]

00:42:19   Apple and you know so anyway there is a [TS]

00:42:22   design language within graphics [TS]

00:42:24   applications that even if you use a new [TS]

00:42:26   graphics app you know where to find [TS]

00:42:28   things but that's application level [TS]

00:42:30   beyond that the help menu is a thing [TS]

00:42:31   that Apple defines as the offender to [TS]

00:42:34   say there is a menu bar the main user in [TS]

00:42:36   this order the help system in this era [TS]

00:42:39   of the Mac is this shape and in this [TS]

00:42:41   position and here's what you can expect [TS]

00:42:43   to find on it or the menu bar itself the [TS]

00:42:45   fact that a menu bar exists applications [TS]

00:42:47   didn't decide that the OS decided that [TS]

00:42:49   again not saying that iOS needs a menu [TS]

00:42:51   bar but that the combination of the OS [TS]

00:42:55   and the applications develop a an [TS]

00:43:00   interface language that means when you [TS]

00:43:02   go from one really complicated [TS]

00:43:04   application to another really [TS]

00:43:06   complicated application you have a hope [TS]

00:43:08   in hell of knowing how the second [TS]

00:43:11   application works because hopefully it [TS]

00:43:13   works in some way similar to the first [TS]

00:43:14   one and the the model of iOS where the [TS]

00:43:17   application owns the entire screen makes [TS]

00:43:19   it very difficult to have any kind of [TS]

00:43:21   consistency yeah maybe the buttons look [TS]

00:43:23   the same and yeah maybe the little [TS]

00:43:24   pop-up dialog things look the same and [TS]

00:43:26   stuff but the application itself is [TS]

00:43:27   almost like games where they can design [TS]

00:43:29   their own interface entirely and that [TS]

00:43:30   leads us down the path of Apple being [TS]

00:43:32   forced to put a hilarious [TS]

00:43:34   you know football style telestrator [TS]

00:43:37   markup illustration covering its [TS]

00:43:39   interface that no one's ever gonna [TS]

00:43:41   remember and then having a thing go away [TS]

00:43:43   and having you look at a bunch of [TS]

00:43:44   hieroglyphics and go so I guess I'll [TS]

00:43:46   just tap things randomly and see is this [TS]

00:43:48   crop tool is this the crop tool is just [TS]

00:43:50   I mean any crop tool they could just [TS]

00:43:53   steal the icon from from the desktop [TS]

00:43:55   applications but even that varies a lot [TS]

00:43:56   so I think iOS has a long way to go even [TS]

00:44:00   once we get over the design trend [TS]

00:44:02   minimalism to have to realize the dream [TS]

00:44:06   of the Mac that the the interface [TS]

00:44:08   consistency allows you to understand how [TS]

00:44:10   a new application would work by reusing [TS]

00:44:12   knowledge about a previous application [TS]

00:44:14   I mean I I'm not even sure that we're [TS]

00:44:17   gonna have that again because the the [TS]

00:44:20   companies and platforms these days are [TS]

00:44:22   just so much bigger than they used to be [TS]

00:44:24   like you know we Apple is a huge company [TS]

00:44:27   now way bigger than even you know five [TS]

00:44:30   ten years ago when when they were doing [TS]

00:44:33   a lot of these like initial iPhone [TS]

00:44:34   designs and everything they're way [TS]

00:44:36   bigger now there are way more apps [TS]

00:44:37   there's way more departments and [TS]

00:44:39   divisions and services and apps and [TS]

00:44:42   platforms and everything else like you [TS]

00:44:44   know the Apple watch looks nothing like [TS]

00:44:46   the rest of us Apple TV is a total is a [TS]

00:44:49   whole different ballgame as well even on [TS]

00:44:51   iOS there there's tons of different [TS]

00:44:54   design languages like you have Apple [TS]

00:44:56   music you have maps you have some of the [TS]

00:44:59   older stuff that wasn't really that's [TS]

00:45:00   still kind of very iOS 70 like there's [TS]

00:45:03   there's all these different designs [TS]

00:45:05   being followed now I'm not sure that [TS]

00:45:09   modern Apple that that it's realistic to [TS]

00:45:11   expect design coherency from them [TS]

00:45:15   they're just too big there's too many [TS]

00:45:16   things and and I think if there was any [TS]

00:45:19   chance of design coherency it would [TS]

00:45:22   happen now when design at Apple runs [TS]

00:45:26   Apple like there is no more powerful [TS]

00:45:29   department in Apple right now than in [TS]

00:45:31   the design department they and they're a [TS]

00:45:33   company that heavily prioritizes design [TS]

00:45:36   it like heavily you know funds it with [TS]

00:45:38   allocations of time and resources and [TS]

00:45:40   everything else like if anybody could [TS]

00:45:42   have a coherent design right now it's [TS]

00:45:44   Apple and they don't I think the problem [TS]

00:45:46   set is just too big now I don't think [TS]

00:45:48   we're ever gonna see that kind of [TS]

00:45:50   coherence like what we used to have [TS]

00:45:51   again instead it's gonna be mostly left [TS]

00:45:55   up to I think third parties to slowly [TS]

00:45:59   evolve standards over over time that [TS]

00:46:03   just kind of become you know the de [TS]

00:46:05   facto standards and that's that's a much [TS]

00:46:08   Messier and slower process but I think [TS]

00:46:10   that's that's kind of what's gonna [TS]

00:46:12   happen in reality I feel like the design [TS]

00:46:14   department lately has not added any of [TS]

00:46:16   new sort of standardized controls or [TS]

00:46:19   standard you know standard interface [TS]

00:46:20   elements they've mostly just been [TS]

00:46:21   dressing up the ones that are there it's [TS]

00:46:24   not as if iOS doesn't have these [TS]

00:46:25   elements it doesn't again [TS]

00:46:28   the same ones doesn't have a menu bar [TS]

00:46:29   but just to give an example I don't mark [TS]

00:46:31   out what tell him at the class name as a [TS]

00:46:32   UI navigation controller the thing the [TS]

00:46:34   the right-left thing with the back and [TS]

00:46:36   done button I'm like that's been around [TS]

00:46:38   since iOS since since iPhone OS 1.0 [TS]

00:46:41   iPhone OS firmware 1.0 like the fact [TS]

00:46:44   that you have at the top of the screen [TS]

00:46:45   you had you know left-to-right sliding [TS]

00:46:48   transition interface they used to have [TS]

00:46:50   the little arrow shape on it or whatever [TS]

00:46:51   that was a standard interface element [TS]

00:46:54   that you know it was the same way any [TS]

00:46:56   standard interface element works hey you [TS]

00:46:58   don't have to write this GUI widget [TS]

00:47:00   we've actually written it for you and it [TS]

00:47:02   provides some important functionality so [TS]

00:47:04   now you don't have to worry about that [TS]

00:47:05   part of application if you decide you [TS]

00:47:06   want your application to be like [TS]

00:47:07   master/detail view and you and you go [TS]

00:47:09   into the right and out to the left and [TS]

00:47:11   you want to have cancel and done buttons [TS]

00:47:12   or slightly like we've provided that [TS]

00:47:14   control for you so don't bother writing [TS]

00:47:15   it and by providing it for you we [TS]

00:47:17   standardized the interface so think of [TS]

00:47:19   all the applications from the day one of [TS]

00:47:20   the iPhone that worked that way where [TS]

00:47:22   the top part of the screen was for you [TS]

00:47:24   to go back and forth and there was done [TS]

00:47:25   and cancel buttons and arrows and stuff [TS]

00:47:26   like that that's a standard element that [TS]

00:47:29   interface element is still with us [TS]

00:47:31   despite the fact on top of our phone [TS]

00:47:32   it's like a mile and a half away now and [TS]

00:47:34   and in the iOS 7 days they've jammed [TS]

00:47:36   other crap up there like the little [TS]

00:47:38   arrow thing which is always look super [TS]

00:47:39   weird from a aesthetic point of view [TS]

00:47:41   that little tiny you know go back to [TS]

00:47:43   Safari we're just super convenient [TS]

00:47:44   functionality wise but it shows that [TS]

00:47:46   didn't really anything but still that [TS]

00:47:48   one interface element does provide an [TS]

00:47:51   important degree of consistency across [TS]

00:47:52   all applications not just apples because [TS]

00:47:55   it generally does look the same and it [TS]

00:47:56   generally does kind of work the same and [TS]

00:47:57   people know to look and look up there [TS]

00:48:00   for stuff but again if there had really [TS]

00:48:03   been design innovation design being how [TS]

00:48:05   it works and not just how it looks at [TS]

00:48:07   some point you have to rethink the fact [TS]

00:48:08   the top of the phone is really far away [TS]

00:48:09   and at some point you have to think [TS]

00:48:12   about are there other standard interface [TS]

00:48:15   elements that are appropriate and the [TS]

00:48:16   age of twelve point nine inch iPads that [TS]

00:48:18   we should introduce standard removable [TS]

00:48:21   palettes or tab interfaces like in [TS]

00:48:23   Safari on the iPad or anything like that [TS]

00:48:24   just any kind of standard interface [TS]

00:48:27   element that other applications can use [TS]

00:48:28   that is appropriate for the modern iOS [TS]

00:48:31   usage the more of those they can produce [TS]

00:48:33   including perhaps standard icons or [TS]

00:48:35   widgets for things like help or you know [TS]

00:48:37   a quick way to get to settings for an [TS]

00:48:39   application from within an application [TS]

00:48:41   if they don't want to give up on the [TS]

00:48:42   whole idea of settings being a separate [TS]

00:48:43   app which I think it's also a dinosaur [TS]

00:48:45   of a bygone era of much less RAM usage [TS]

00:48:48   and also the whole you know we don't [TS]

00:48:50   want anything in our application so hide [TS]

00:48:51   all the complexity into another [TS]

00:48:53   application that never worked by the way [TS]

00:48:55   yeah a lot of stuff needs to be [TS]

00:48:57   rethought about the design of iOS and [TS]

00:48:59   almost none of it has to do with what [TS]

00:49:00   applications look like I feel like we [TS]

00:49:02   need we need more we need more help from [TS]

00:49:06   the the OS and the foundational classes [TS]

00:49:09   to get to the next level of [TS]

00:49:12   functionality on iOS applications I [TS]

00:49:14   think that's mostly true I think to go [TS]

00:49:16   back a step though part of the reason [TS]

00:49:18   that I think we haven't standardized on [TS]

00:49:20   anyone like design or anyone like a set [TS]

00:49:24   of iconography is because it didn't take [TS]

00:49:27   long in my recollection starting you [TS]

00:49:29   know with iPhone OS 2 it wasn't too long [TS]

00:49:32   after that that it became kind of blase [TS]

00:49:37   2 or maybe that's not the word I'm [TS]

00:49:39   looking for but kind of gross to use [TS]

00:49:40   vanilla UI kit for most of your app and [TS]

00:49:44   I think that there's plenty of vanilla [TS]

00:49:47   UI kit controls in any app but I mean [TS]

00:49:49   looking at overcast is a great example [TS]

00:49:51   there's plenty of Anila UI kit there but [TS]

00:49:53   so much of it is hidden in so many [TS]

00:49:56   different custom controls I mean look at [TS]

00:49:58   the card interface Marco that you were [TS]

00:49:59   rolling for a long time like that was [TS]

00:50:02   completely and utterly custom and from [TS]

00:50:04   what you said on the show and from what [TS]

00:50:05   I've heard elsewhere you know you bent [TS]

00:50:06   over backwards to do it and we can have [TS]

00:50:08   a different discussion another time as [TS]

00:50:10   to whether or not that was wise but the [TS]

00:50:11   fact of the matter that I'm driving [TS]

00:50:12   toward is that for better or worse one [TS]

00:50:15   way or another in order to stand out on [TS]

00:50:17   this ever more crowded App Store you [TS]

00:50:19   need to have a more and more custom UI [TS]

00:50:23   or at least in most cases that's the [TS]

00:50:26   case I'm sure you could well actually me [TS]

00:50:28   to death on this one but it seems to me [TS]

00:50:30   that your average consumer be it design [TS]

00:50:32   minded or otherwise tends to like things [TS]

00:50:35   that are very opinionated and somewhat [TS]

00:50:37   different I mean look at tweet bot is a [TS]

00:50:38   great example of that I wouldn't say [TS]

00:50:40   that I see a whole lot of vanilla UI [TS]

00:50:41   Canton tweet bot but I would say that it [TS]

00:50:44   looks like it belongs on the platform [TS]

00:50:46   and it looks like it has its own [TS]

00:50:49   personality and I would say the same of [TS]

00:50:50   overcast actually and so I think because [TS]

00:50:52   everyone was branching out in their own [TS]

00:50:54   direction everyone [TS]

00:50:54   creating their own personal or perhaps [TS]

00:50:57   company-wide you know conventions and [TS]

00:51:00   things I think that may be why we've [TS]

00:51:02   splintered in so many different [TS]

00:51:03   directions and that kind of bums me out [TS]

00:51:06   partially because I'm really bad at [TS]

00:51:07   customizing you like it to do weird [TS]

00:51:09   things like Marco does but uh but it's [TS]

00:51:12   it's understandable nevertheless because [TS]

00:51:14   in this evermore crowded space you need [TS]

00:51:16   to do something to stand out well you do [TS]

00:51:18   need to be differentiated but that's [TS]

00:51:20   separate from do you need to do like [TS]

00:51:22   super custom controls like I think [TS]

00:51:24   that's part of the skill of making an [TS]

00:51:26   application in any platform is use [TS]

00:51:29   standard controls but add some kind of [TS]

00:51:32   branding and flair to them and and I [TS]

00:51:34   think every application also needs at [TS]

00:51:35   least one or two unique interface [TS]

00:51:37   elements because it historically [TS]

00:51:39   advances in the sort of quote/unquote [TS]

00:51:41   standard UI have very often come from [TS]

00:51:43   third parties like the first you know [TS]

00:51:45   just look at pull-to-refresh for crying [TS]

00:51:47   out loud on iOS but I was gonna do is a [TS]

00:51:49   bunch of old Mac examples granted Mac [TS]

00:51:51   paint seeded a lot of the the DNA of [TS]

00:51:55   graphic applications across all GUI [TS]

00:51:56   platforms but subsequent applications [TS]

00:51:59   like you know illustrator and super [TS]

00:52:02   paint and and Photoshop especially had [TS]

00:52:05   their own innovations in UI that [TS]

00:52:09   informed the whole rest of the the genre [TS]

00:52:13   um and in the best case new interface [TS]

00:52:16   elements whether they be tabs or [TS]

00:52:18   whatever you know should eventually be [TS]

00:52:20   co-opted by the OS and become standard [TS]

00:52:25   control so I'm not saying Apple has to [TS]

00:52:26   do it all but I think you can get away [TS]

00:52:28   with having an application that is a [TS]

00:52:30   hundred percent standard controls with a [TS]

00:52:33   little bit of flair plus one or two [TS]

00:52:36   things that totally don't look like [TS]

00:52:37   standard controls even if they are under [TS]

00:52:39   the covers that they give you want your [TS]

00:52:41   app to have personality right like tweet [TS]

00:52:43   bot has a personality and you wanted to [TS]

00:52:46   have some some kind of differentiating [TS]

00:52:48   thing like oh this is this feature the [TS]

00:52:49   only this application has this UI [TS]

00:52:51   element is fun to use flicking the thing [TS]

00:52:53   away or whatever and if that's really a [TS]

00:52:55   great idea [TS]

00:52:56   a couple years down the line Apple [TS]

00:52:58   should adapt the iOS interface say oh [TS]

00:53:01   here's a way you can pop up sort of a [TS]

00:53:03   thing on the screen and people can flick [TS]

00:53:04   it away in a like physics-based you know [TS]

00:53:06   fun kind of way [TS]

00:53:07   if so many applications do that that [TS]

00:53:09   should be a standard type thing and that [TS]

00:53:12   that should be the feedback cycle I [TS]

00:53:13   don't think you need to go even on iOS I [TS]

00:53:16   don't think you need to go whole hog and [TS]

00:53:17   say everything I do is custom it's [TS]

00:53:20   basically a game like every one of my [TS]

00:53:22   controls awesome because that's like I [TS]

00:53:25   said it's too much differentiation [TS]

00:53:26   because maybe like people still do like [TS]

00:53:29   that but you're in for a world of hurt [TS]

00:53:30   and I think it's not necessary you do [TS]

00:53:33   want people to notice you but you don't [TS]

00:53:35   need to like reinvent everything [TS]

00:53:39   especially with the flexibility Apple [TS]

00:53:41   gives you in most modern UI Kate [TS]

00:53:43   controls you can really customize them [TS]

00:53:44   to look almost nothing like what they [TS]

00:53:45   what you would think they look like [TS]

00:53:47   generic things like the collection [TS]

00:53:49   abused and stuff where you have a lot of [TS]

00:53:50   control over exactly what is drawn on [TS]

00:53:51   the screen like you can make a [TS]

00:53:53   collection view into something that no [TS]

00:53:55   longer resembles a collection view at [TS]

00:53:56   all with some cleverness right so I [TS]

00:53:59   think I think app developers have the [TS]

00:54:04   freedom to be differentiable staying on [TS]

00:54:05   standard controls but I still think it's [TS]

00:54:07   on Apple to see what's out there [TS]

00:54:09   see what's popular see what's works and [TS]

00:54:11   come up with some of their own [TS]

00:54:13   innovations to give a better pallet of [TS]

00:54:16   tools in the end the interface builder [TS]

00:54:18   sense even if nobody uses that in iOS - [TS]

00:54:21   I wouldn't say that I wouldn't say that [TS]

00:54:23   well I don't know it's popular these [TS]

00:54:24   days with the kids but - to be able to [TS]

00:54:26   say I'm gonna make the next great iPad [TS]

00:54:30   graphics application of which there are [TS]

00:54:31   many and but I you know I don't want to [TS]

00:54:36   have to invent everything from all cloth [TS]

00:54:38   I want to you know I want Apple to help [TS]

00:54:41   me here by saying oh are you gonna have [TS]

00:54:43   floating palettes in your graphics [TS]

00:54:45   application but we have a standard [TS]

00:54:46   control for that because everyone seems [TS]

00:54:47   to be making their own all the way down [TS]

00:54:49   to all the little experiments speaking [TS]

00:54:50   of Steve trout and Smith earlier of like [TS]

00:54:52   floating with quote/unquote Windows or [TS]

00:54:53   whatever stuff like that if it comes [TS]

00:54:56   from a third-party application first and [TS]

00:54:57   its popular fine but that's exactly the [TS]

00:55:00   type of stuff that Apple should be [TS]

00:55:01   looking into trying to figure out a more [TS]

00:55:04   sophisticated bucket of parts for people [TS]

00:55:06   to build their fancy iOS applications [TS]

00:55:09   out of yeah and I think it's it's also [TS]

00:55:11   worth pointing out like the timing of [TS]

00:55:13   talking about this now I think is [TS]

00:55:15   interesting because the iPhone 10 I [TS]

00:55:18   think really changes a lot of [TS]

00:55:21   how things in iOS should be designed you [TS]

00:55:24   know again it's this isn't news I'll go [TS]

00:55:26   boy I'll be quick but like we have now [TS]

00:55:28   like culminated this this this trend [TS]

00:55:31   that we've been going on for a little [TS]

00:55:32   while now with the plus phones we're now [TS]

00:55:35   a lot of iOS interfaces have critical [TS]

00:55:40   functions and buttons and things on the [TS]

00:55:42   top area of the screen which is now very [TS]

00:55:45   hard to reach for a lot of people a lot [TS]

00:55:48   of the time on a lot of devices and so [TS]

00:55:51   this is like a fundamental thing that so [TS]

00:55:55   much of iOS design has been based on [TS]

00:55:58   putting important controls in those top [TS]

00:56:00   corners and now that should be rethought [TS]

00:56:03   I'm sure Apple is feeling this too [TS]

00:56:06   I'm sure they are thinking about this [TS]

00:56:07   and are hopefully working on this but [TS]

00:56:12   this is also a time where they have a [TS]

00:56:14   lot of software quality problems that [TS]

00:56:15   they have to like slow down on the like [TS]

00:56:18   move forward aggressively side of things [TS]

00:56:20   to let the quality catch up really we've [TS]

00:56:25   heard rumblings here and there that [TS]

00:56:27   maybe there was some kind of iOS 12 [TS]

00:56:30   redesign plan but then maybe that's been [TS]

00:56:32   pushed to next year and next version of [TS]

00:56:35   iOS because of the of the quality push [TS]

00:56:37   that seems reasonable to me [TS]

00:56:40   and so assuming that either it's coming [TS]

00:56:43   this year or next year I do expect Apple [TS]

00:56:45   is probably working on a big iOS [TS]

00:56:48   redesign to better accommodate the [TS]

00:56:51   iPhone 10 not to mention that I just [TS]

00:56:54   think you should need to update the look [TS]

00:56:55   and feel of it to just be you know fresh [TS]

00:56:58   and and new and no longer iOS 7 stale [TS]

00:57:01   but I do expect that to happen soon I [TS]

00:57:04   hope it does and even if even if it's [TS]

00:57:08   next year for quality reasons that's [TS]

00:57:09   fine with me [TS]

00:57:09   I really would love to see what Apple [TS]

00:57:12   has in mind for a coherent direction to [TS]

00:57:16   bring iOS in now I hope we get that I [TS]

00:57:20   don't think it's a sure thing that we [TS]

00:57:22   will ever get that because of what I [TS]

00:57:23   said earlier but I hope we get that [TS]

00:57:25   whether it's this year next and I really [TS]

00:57:27   look forward to seeing what they think [TS]

00:57:29   the direction is I hope it's not just [TS]

00:57:31   for the iPhone 10 because I think as [TS]

00:57:33   much as the iPhone 10 needs it [TS]

00:57:34   because things really are farther away [TS]

00:57:36   from your thumb they ever have been it's [TS]

00:57:37   not like the plus ones have been around [TS]

00:57:39   for a while but I feel like the iPad [TS]

00:57:41   needs it more because I do see a lot of [TS]

00:57:42   people I mean a lot of us gravitations [TS]

00:57:45   use with the pencil but I see a lot of [TS]

00:57:46   increasingly sophisticated applications [TS]

00:57:48   on the iPad and they all still look like [TS]

00:57:50   games to me in terms of the interface I [TS]

00:57:51   see very little consistency among them [TS]

00:57:54   everybody having to roll their own [TS]

00:57:55   controls for everything which increases [TS]

00:57:57   the barrier to entry for good graphics [TS]

00:57:59   applications like I just think of [TS]

00:58:01   something like acorn which I'm sure has [TS]

00:58:02   some custom interface elements but in [TS]

00:58:04   general it's using app kit to its [TS]

00:58:06   fullest effect taking advantage of all [TS]

00:58:07   the controls Apple gives to design an [TS]

00:58:10   interface doesn't look like other [TS]

00:58:11   graphics application interfaces but it [TS]

00:58:13   looks Mac like you know how it's going [TS]

00:58:14   to work and the fact that I mean both on [TS]

00:58:18   the front end on the back end that a [TS]

00:58:19   corner is able to leverage the [TS]

00:58:21   frameworks that apple provides for UI [TS]

00:58:23   and for image processing itself allows a [TS]

00:58:26   one-person software shop to make a [TS]

00:58:28   graphics application that is basically [TS]

00:58:30   like a mini Photoshop that's that's the [TS]

00:58:33   platform advantage that Apple should be [TS]

00:58:34   selling come develop on our platform [TS]

00:58:36   look what a single person can do it's [TS]

00:58:37   unbelievable on on the iPad I feel like [TS]

00:58:41   maybe it's the only three people teams [TS]

00:58:43   but I feel like it just looks like a [TS]

00:58:44   hell of a lot of work to make a top-tier [TS]

00:58:47   iPad graphics application and that when [TS]

00:58:50   you're done you have unless you exactly [TS]

00:58:53   ape your competitors interface you have [TS]

00:58:55   little chance of being familiar to the [TS]

00:58:57   users of your competitors product so [TS]

00:58:58   your pitches now use my application [TS]

00:59:01   which has fewer features and by the way [TS]

00:59:02   the interface looks nothing like your [TS]

00:59:03   interface and it works totally [TS]

00:59:05   differently so come learn from scratch [TS]

00:59:06   it's a tough sell we are sponsored this [TS]

00:59:09   week by Linode go to lynda.com slash ATP [TS]

00:59:13   and use code ATP 2018 to get a $20 [TS]

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00:59:29   a month that $5 plan gets you one gig of [TS]

00:59:31   ram these days that's awesome anyway I [TS]

00:59:34   don't know of a better value in the web [TS]

00:59:35   hosting business and you if you know of [TS]

00:59:38   course you can scale up from there they [TS]

00:59:39   have all sorts of plans including high [TS]

00:59:42   memory plans that start at 16 gigs and [TS]

00:59:44   you know if you need lots of RAM maybe [TS]

00:59:46   not so much the other stuff you can get [TS]

00:59:48   for a more manageable price it's [TS]

00:59:50   wonderful Lin owed you that you can get [TS]

00:59:52   a server running in under a minute [TS]

00:59:54   if you need any help at all they have [TS]

00:59:56   24/7 support they even have phone [TS]

00:59:58   support if you need that [TS]