The Accidental Tech Podcast

269: Cooled by Jellyfish


01:00:00   they're beings for harbor today but

01:00:01   assuming that they are cuz this was kind

01:00:03   of weirdly tied to the macro and this PR

01:00:04   thing they should just make the kind of

01:00:07   computer that has the most you can

01:00:09   possibly have in it for this role like

01:00:12   for like the Mac Pro it's a tower

01:00:14   there's no limitations really on power

01:00:17   consumption or price or size so give it

01:00:22   the most you can get when you're making

01:00:23   a laptop you want to have something

01:00:25   that's portable presumably thin and

01:00:27   light if you can get it there has a good

01:00:28   battery life but within but other than

01:00:30   that make it as versatile as possible

01:00:33   this is an argument I always have with

01:00:34   people who are like well you why do you

01:00:37   need the SD card slot I never used mine

01:00:39   so I'm glad they removed it that's these

01:00:42   are versatile general purpose machines

01:00:44   they should have commented as much as

01:00:46   possible removing anything should not be

01:00:49   considered a feature except wait that's

01:00:52   the only thing that should be considered

01:00:54   a feature of removing like everything

01:00:56   else like these should accommodate as

01:00:58   much as possible so to try to pick like

01:01:02   a few certain narrow use cases or a few

01:01:06   certain industries or types of quote Pro

01:01:08   users which is meaningless to say like

01:01:10   we're gonna optimize it or we're gonna

01:01:12   design it to accommodate these things it

01:01:15   makes like a like a spiky or peaky

01:01:18   design instead of something that is more

01:01:20   versatile that can accommodate a

01:01:22   well-rounded group of things people

01:01:24   might want to do with these computers

01:01:25   the way to properly design computers is

01:01:27   to cover as much as possible not as

01:01:31   little as possible and I and this is

01:01:34   that this has been a design conflict

01:01:37   between me and Apple for a long time

01:01:40   well for recent years especially I wish

01:01:43   that the products we were getting out of

01:01:44   Apple were just more general-purpose

01:01:47   more versatile the 2013 Mac Pro went in

01:01:51   the other direction and flopped

01:01:53   miserably the 2013 Mac Pro is saying

01:01:56   let's take all the different things

01:01:57   people can do with the old Mac Pro

01:01:58   towers so many different configurations

01:02:00   possible for so many different kinds of

01:02:02   uses and priorities and budgets and

01:02:03   everything else and then they made this

01:02:06   little trashcan thing that was optimized

01:02:09   for like one use case and one type of

01:02:12   customer they replace this in

01:02:14   credible versatile broad-reaching

01:02:16   product with a very narrow one and it

01:02:19   flopped I can make many parallels to the

01:02:23   laptop lineup right now I hope that they

01:02:27   have learned some lessons from the 2013

01:02:30   Mac Pro and from the negative reactions

01:02:32   to 2016 MacBook Pro and I hope they're

01:02:35   gonna start giving us more broad

01:02:38   products the iMac Pro is a pretty good

01:02:41   start in that direction I want to see

01:02:43   more from the Mac Pro so it really

01:02:46   depends on how they're using these

01:02:47   people because they don't go into that

01:02:48   much detail I think said I didn't tell

01:02:50   you when they were formed they just like

01:02:51   oh they're right down the hall and yes

01:02:52   they're influencing the Mac Pro and so

01:02:54   on so I can think of lots of good users

01:02:56   these people this gets to the to my

01:02:57   point earlier about it's apples job to

01:03:00   make a good product the people they

01:03:02   consult aren't making the product aren't

01:03:05   dictating the product design like

01:03:06   they're just one input and you have to

01:03:08   know what what input do you actually

01:03:12   want from these people you don't want

01:03:14   them just to just go in there with a

01:03:15   blank sheet of paper and say here pros

01:03:17   what kind of computer would you like us

01:03:18   to build and they all draw a picture of

01:03:19   their home or car and you go great we'll

01:03:20   build that and then you build it as

01:03:22   terrible no one likes and you can't

01:03:23   figure out what you did wrong like an

01:03:25   apples not doing that I'm sure right

01:03:26   right you but there is valuable feedback

01:03:30   to be harvested from them to your point

01:03:32   markup to make a general-purpose

01:03:34   computer that that doesn't have doesn't

01:03:37   have stupid limits right so to give to

01:03:40   give some examples that might sound

01:03:41   silly but I think is is hopefully

01:03:43   exactly the kind of feedback they're

01:03:45   getting from these people for the Video

01:03:46   Editor examples I'm going to make up

01:03:47   stuff by video wedding cuz I don't know

01:03:48   anything about it right but say the

01:03:50   video editors say that they they never

01:03:53   put their computers on their desk they

01:03:54   always have it like underneath there in

01:03:56   like a some standard cabinet or Bay or

01:03:58   something or whatever right and for it

01:04:02   to be there the cords that connect from

01:04:05   the monitor to the computer have to be

01:04:07   some length and they could say the last

01:04:10   monitor you made the cords are never

01:04:12   long enough so we have to buy extenders

01:04:14   and extenders are flaky or the you know

01:04:17   the bus doesn't doesn't support cords of

01:04:19   that length and it's kind of annoying

01:04:20   and same deal with the input devices

01:04:23   because of the distances if you just

01:04:25   made all your cords like a foot longer

01:04:27   there would be so much less frustrating

01:04:29   that's valuable feedback because it's

01:04:32   just saying look this is how people like

01:04:33   to arrange their stuff it seems like a

01:04:35   minor issue but if we don't do this if

01:04:37   we make our codes like Accords the

01:04:39   normal length it's gonna be annoying to

01:04:42   these people in the same way the

01:04:43   five-second long Final Cut Pro Windows

01:04:44   it is annoying like they can get around

01:04:46   it the product is not dead on arrival

01:04:48   but it's a thing we wouldn't have

01:04:51   thought of have we hadn't if we hadn't

01:04:53   talked to real people who use them in a

01:04:54   certain situation and it's a thing we

01:04:57   can do it's not dictating the design of

01:04:59   the computer just make the cords a

01:05:01   little longer I have to think that they

01:05:02   had a similar type of reason for the

01:05:06   ridiculously long charger cord for the

01:05:07   the Apple watch you know the core for

01:05:11   that thing is like well sometimes the

01:05:12   outlet is like behind the headboard of

01:05:15   the bed in the middle and to reach the

01:05:16   nightstand it has to be pretty darn long

01:05:18   and yeah people can use an extension

01:05:19   cord but that's kind of annoying so

01:05:23   we're just gonna include a really long

01:05:25   cord stuff like that is exactly the kind

01:05:31   of hardware feedback that you can get

01:05:33   without saying oh whatever hardware you

01:05:37   need for your three specific specialties

01:05:40   we're just going to build something that

01:05:41   does that and then leave someone out in

01:05:42   the cold who wants to do like MRI

01:05:43   imaging it's like well I don't want

01:05:44   about any of those people want I want

01:05:46   something else entirely so they should

01:05:48   be making a general-purpose flexible

01:05:50   computer but if they can you know to the

01:05:53   the goal of accommodating more use cases

01:05:55   is you have to talk to all sorts of

01:05:57   people these people want to for longer

01:05:58   record these people don't want any

01:06:00   lights in the front or you have to be

01:06:02   able to disable the lights like stuff

01:06:03   like that but you can just do that it

01:06:05   when you look at the whole computer like

01:06:07   why are the cords so long and who cares

01:06:09   about turning off the lights I certainly

01:06:10   don't care about turning off the lights

01:06:12   and why does it have like slots in front

01:06:14   end and back or why are they a why are

01:06:15   they on the side instead of over here

01:06:17   it's like you shrug your shoulders and

01:06:19   say whatever it's fine for me but to

01:06:21   make a machine that accommodates the

01:06:23   most possible use cases that's

01:06:25   worthwhile feedback on a hardware level

01:06:27   you still you don't want it to be the

01:06:29   Homer and have everything that everybody

01:06:30   wants because it stops being coherent at

01:06:32   some point but that kind of feedback in

01:06:36   the feedback I mentioned before of like

01:06:37   please don't make something that like

01:06:41   is cooled by gel and magnetically

01:06:43   levitates and you know is a bunch of

01:06:46   boxes that snap together with magnets

01:06:48   like we don't nobody wants that like

01:06:50   nope I know you think it's cool but I

01:06:53   guess you know but I mean say we as

01:06:54   professionals talk to everybody talk to

01:06:56   the video better talk to the audio

01:06:57   editors talk to the scientific people

01:06:58   nobody wants that and and the people who

01:07:01   think it's cool they're not the ones

01:07:03   buying matter exactly otherwise we're

01:07:05   gonna complain the to expense and so so

01:07:08   I think you know that feedback is is

01:07:11   good to consent on the right path but

01:07:13   after that it's just a matter of finding

01:07:14   out all the little little things that

01:07:17   are easy for Apple to do that can go a

01:07:18   long way that I mean and that's perfect

01:07:21   for Apple to brag about like in their

01:07:22   presentation say and we've learned that

01:07:24   you know again I'm making up all this

01:07:25   stuff because I don't use them as

01:07:26   contacts it was like and we learned that

01:07:27   in certain studios people don't like to

01:07:29   have lights so if you want to turn off

01:07:30   all the lights on you on your thing you

01:07:32   turn them off and the audience would

01:07:33   applaud if they were if they also knew

01:07:35   about this whole light thing right

01:07:36   that's that's the type of feedback

01:07:38   they're getting is that it for now III I

01:07:44   don't know what to do

01:07:45   don't worry there'll be more don't worry

01:07:47   yeah they didn't actually release that

01:07:50   much new information so all we can do is

01:07:53   speculate oh and I guess related to this

01:07:56   and how I got on this topic but I was

01:07:59   wandering YouTube looking at fancy PC

01:08:03   towers and there are some cool ones

01:08:06   because I you know this is sort of I

01:08:08   don't know like Mac Pro methadone right

01:08:11   I'm just I can't I don't have any news

01:08:14   about a Mac Pro so I can just go look at

01:08:15   other things and say if the Mac Pro was

01:08:17   like this it would be neat like I saw

01:08:19   one recently that was a tower like a

01:08:22   mini tower PC with no fans like

01:08:26   passively cooled but with reasonably

01:08:28   modern hardware in it like no fans that

01:08:31   is a certain appeal doesn't it right and

01:08:33   you know it obviously outperforms any

01:08:35   Mac ever sold right because it's a PC

01:08:37   you know with the real video card and

01:08:39   everything it's not the fastest video

01:08:42   card you can get an anna bc but it was

01:08:44   fast

01:08:44   I was like no fans really it wasn't even

01:08:47   that big it didn't even get that hot I

01:08:49   was like wow if Apple and this by the

01:08:51   way Apple don't do this none of your

01:08:53   pros are asking for No

01:08:54   but if if this was like an avenue of

01:08:58   weirdness that they made like instead of

01:09:00   making the trashcan they instead decided

01:09:02   you know Steve Jobs still odd this is

01:09:04   that the thing I can imagine him getting

01:09:06   it being his butt about and saying let's

01:09:08   try and make it with no fans he'd like

01:09:09   but Steve nobody wants that bit I said

01:09:11   no fans like the original Macintosh by

01:09:15   the way I had no fans in it right and

01:09:17   like that's more difficult and it got a

01:09:20   little bit too hot inside there and they

01:09:22   eventually put fans in the max

01:09:23   eventually they're like Steve we kind of

01:09:25   really need to like fine all right fine

01:09:27   put fan sent fine make the Rama seat

01:09:29   really expandable to phyto kilobytes I'm

01:09:30   you don't think you're ever gonna need

01:09:31   it but anyway sometimes it's not great

01:09:34   to listen to Steve Jobs but if they made

01:09:36   a Mac prototype thing where the design

01:09:39   goal was for no no no good reason to

01:09:42   make it have no fans I think they could

01:09:45   still make a good one it would be stupid

01:09:46   it would be less flexible to having fans

01:09:48   but it put it this way it would be

01:09:50   better than trashcan you can make

01:09:51   actually a pretty good conventional

01:09:53   tower looking fanless thing that it has

01:09:56   much more flexibility than the trashcan

01:09:58   which is more of a condemnation that a

01:09:59   trash can than endorsement for something

01:10:01   the Apple could do it yeah but to do it

01:10:03   it would have to be really big and

01:10:05   really ugly things that Apple would

01:10:07   never do not that big you should I'll

01:10:08   send you a youtube link it's smaller

01:10:10   than the regular is way smaller than my

01:10:11   cheese grater it's pretty amazing the

01:10:14   amazing things you can do we if you

01:10:15   apply large amounts of metal in large

01:10:17   amounts of surface area so tell me this

01:10:21   is gonna come across really snarky and I

01:10:23   don't mean it to but I do the same sort

01:10:28   of thing that Marco does for a living

01:10:30   and if you exclude gaming I do the same

01:10:34   sort of thing that John does for a

01:10:36   living I can do my job on a MacBook on a

01:10:42   15-inch MacBook Pro on an iMac and I

01:10:45   have done and will continue to do my job

01:10:48   on any of those things there is no part

01:10:52   of me that feels like I need or even

01:10:54   really want a Mac Pro because presumably

01:10:57   if the iMac Pro is something like five

01:10:59   grand the Mac Pro is probably going to

01:11:02   be one and a half that twice that three

01:11:04   times that

01:11:05   I I don't really understand why someone

01:11:11   who writes code the kind of code that

01:11:14   the three of us write anyway why does

01:11:16   one need a MacPro

01:11:18   unless you want it to last 40 years and

01:11:22   for Marco you go through that you go

01:11:24   through computers as quickly as you go

01:11:26   through underwear so that's not a

01:11:27   concern for you and I'll give you a

01:11:30   cop-out which which I can't argue with

01:11:32   and it's that I am the most impatient

01:11:35   human alive and damn it I will wait as

01:11:38   little time as possible for anything to

01:11:39   happen on my computer and that is I

01:11:41   don't personally think it's worth 5 or

01:11:43   10 or whatever grand to to be that

01:11:47   impatient but you know if you do that's

01:11:49   fine that's that's your math that's your

01:11:50   business that's fine but do you know

01:11:52   what I mean like it seems kind of silly

01:11:54   like why does any of the three of us

01:11:56   need a MacPro

01:11:57   why do you need a fancy BMW to drive

01:12:00   yourself to work you could take a moped

01:12:01   or you could walk walk would be a

01:12:05   stretch moped would probably end up with

01:12:07   me dead the right answer you're looking

01:12:09   for the right answer you're looking for

01:12:11   is with a Chevy Volt

01:12:13   or just like the cheapest you know you

01:12:15   could you could get by with like you

01:12:16   know it's a little like you know the

01:12:18   cheap cheap little two-door you know

01:12:19   ikana box like why do you have a nice

01:12:22   car why you know why you have a car that

01:12:24   is fast as opposed to like you can still

01:12:26   we're driving the same places right like

01:12:29   this car analogy definitely has some

01:12:30   legs looking at an article right now

01:12:36   from 2013 that has the picture of a

01:12:39   beautiful matte finish LFA here we go

01:12:43   case you're back for a successor this is

01:12:46   exactly the reason because we're car

01:12:47   guys that's why that's why that though I

01:12:50   don't buy that well I mean it isn't a

01:12:53   perfect analogy because you know there

01:12:55   are certain capabilities that you know

01:12:57   higher-end computers offer you that you

01:12:59   know that aren't necessarily always the

01:13:01   case are always available on lower end

01:13:02   ones yeah it's it's even more

01:13:04   justifiable than right yeah exactly but

01:13:06   it's you know it's it's almost kind of

01:13:09   like saying like you know why like why

01:13:10   get a pickup truck

01:13:11   if you don't usually haul stuff you know

01:13:14   but some people just like pickup trucks

01:13:15   a lot and they're and that's you know

01:13:17   they get pleasure out of that and

01:13:19   like who cares right and maybe sometimes

01:13:21   they do occasionally have to haul stuff

01:13:23   and it wouldn't have fit in their Civic

01:13:24   like buying more than you technically

01:13:27   need is something to consider if you're

01:13:29   you know outfitting a business with

01:13:31   10000 pcs when you're an individual

01:13:34   who's a computer enthusiast and you have

01:13:36   a little bit of extra money and you can

01:13:37   buy yourself a really nice computer

01:13:38   there's nothing wrong with buying more

01:13:41   computer than you need yes we do the

01:13:43   same job in a lot of ways and by the way

01:13:47   development is a very big and diverse

01:13:50   field that many people have many

01:13:53   different needs and as I was spouting

01:13:55   off on Twitter earlier about I think the

01:13:58   true developer computer is the MacBook

01:14:00   Pro like the MacBook Pro is by far the

01:14:02   more commonly used computer for

01:14:04   developers than the Mac Pro the Mac Pro

01:14:06   is much more commonly used by non

01:14:09   developers for you know things like

01:14:11   video farms and stuff like that like

01:14:13   it's really not frequently used by

01:14:16   software developers in my my knowledge

01:14:18   and experience the MacBook Pro really is

01:14:20   is that but you know I could do my job

01:14:24   on a map a pro I have done my job on a

01:14:26   MacBook Pro I spent years do my job

01:14:28   groans it's fine I'm happier and I think

01:14:33   I'm more productive and at least certain

01:14:35   things are much faster using my cool new

01:14:37   iMac pro before this I use an iMac which

01:14:40   is basically a MacBook Pro that's

01:14:42   stationary that was also really great

01:14:44   for years and that was good enough but I

01:14:47   can get a better one and I really you

01:14:49   know in the same way that you really

01:14:51   value having a nice fast car I really

01:14:54   get a lot of pleasure out of having a

01:14:55   nice fast Mac to do my work on we don't

01:14:58   need any of these things in the in most

01:15:01   senses we get them because you know some

01:15:04   people really do need the extra

01:15:05   horsepower we're like you know if I was

01:15:08   actually encoding video all day and my

01:15:10   encodes could be like four times faster

01:15:13   than they could on a MacBook Pro or on

01:15:15   an iMac I'm burgler iMac then yeah I

01:15:17   think I could justifiably say you know

01:15:19   this is worth it to my job because it's

01:15:21   it's saving a vast amount of time

01:15:23   throughout the day for me the game isn't

01:15:26   that big between this and something a

01:15:27   little more pedestrian but there is

01:15:29   still a gain like every time I build and

01:15:32   run

01:15:32   in Xcode like I'm doing this a lot

01:15:33   throughout the day and it is faster on

01:15:35   this than it was on my old iMac not by

01:15:37   hours faster it's not our faster but

01:15:40   it's seconds faster and I do that I do

01:15:41   it a lot so it's better this this

01:15:44   computer is able to do things basically

01:15:48   anything I ask it to do in near silence

01:15:50   I have yet to hear the fan spin up I was

01:15:53   maxing out all ten cores the other day

01:15:55   importing a big lightroom import and I

01:15:57   didn't hear the fans at all the entire

01:15:59   time I've encoded video I have encoded

01:16:01   4k video didn't hear the fans at all

01:16:04   it's wonderful and so none of us Orwell

01:16:07   few of us actually quote need these

01:16:12   machines but that's not to say this on a

01:16:15   market for them just like nobody needs a

01:16:17   car that can go zero to 60 in 2.5

01:16:19   seconds but there's a whole lot of

01:16:21   people who would sure like one I were

01:16:24   going further to further away from

01:16:26   trying to justify it although there are

01:16:27   definitely justifications basically the

01:16:29   same justification says anybody who uses

01:16:31   a tool to do a job like Parker was

01:16:32   saying you could edit video on a MacBook

01:16:34   Air but you're gonna be miserable

01:16:35   compared to if you had a bigger faster

01:16:37   computer if you do it for the living so

01:16:39   I mean anytime you do anything for a

01:16:40   living you want like the best tools for

01:16:41   it even if it's not a straight time as

01:16:43   money thing so there is that

01:16:44   justification but I think the more

01:16:46   important thing in that the pitch I was

01:16:48   trying to make in this old article from

01:16:49   before they introduced the trash can was

01:16:51   that it's important to the company to to

01:16:56   reach for this particular star uh you

01:16:58   know for to try to make the biggest best

01:17:02   fastest most powerful whatever they're

01:17:07   doing that with the phone every every

01:17:09   year they try to make the best most

01:17:12   powerful phone like the iPhone 10 like

01:17:15   it's not kind of like we think this is a

01:17:18   pretty good phone like it's kind of fast

01:17:20   like it's the best fastest coolest thing

01:17:23   they know how to make with all the best

01:17:25   specs it's better than everything you

01:17:27   know they're they're always reaching for

01:17:28   the stars there and that's that's a good

01:17:29   Sumer product but for the pro stuff it's

01:17:31   you know the hella car analogy right

01:17:33   you're not gonna make a lot of money

01:17:35   from it you're not gonna sell a lot of

01:17:36   them most people don't need one nobody

01:17:40   needs one but having it exists not even

01:17:44   buying it like please I'm I'm in

01:17:46   karzai by honda chords right but just

01:17:49   people knowing that it exists that that

01:17:52   these cars are out there and that this

01:17:54   is the company that makes them raises

01:17:56   the prestige of that company and is

01:17:58   interest interesting from a sort of

01:18:02   human achievement perspective yes it's

01:18:03   not the same as the space race but it's

01:18:05   it's similar like it you did someone is

01:18:08   out that you know Ferraris out there

01:18:09   making Ferraris even if I never buy one

01:18:11   certainly I don't need one and even if I

01:18:13   never buy one I you know spend hours

01:18:16   reading about them in magazines and

01:18:18   looking at them and get excited when I

01:18:19   see one and it changes my opinion of

01:18:23   what cars can be and you know like it

01:18:26   gives me a different view of Ferrari

01:18:28   than if they just made SUVs and Apple

01:18:32   I think should always continue to push

01:18:35   up against this envelope regardless how

01:18:37   many people buy it just because for the

01:18:39   same reason I use the Viper and then in

01:18:42   the thing because it was a direct quote

01:18:43   from the magazine I've been reading

01:18:44   where that you know the car guys wanted

01:18:45   to make the Viper because it's it's cool

01:18:47   essentially and they're into cars and

01:18:49   the people who deal with the money like

01:18:50   why would you ever make that it's a

01:18:52   terrible idea it's not gonna make you

01:18:54   money and it's stupid and no one's gonna

01:18:56   buy one but that's that's bad decision

01:18:59   making so I got your question Casey was

01:19:03   why do you want to get a MacPro

01:19:04   but I would take it even farther back

01:19:06   and say why do you care if a MacPro

01:19:08   exists if you're not gonna buy one and I

01:19:10   do

01:19:10   I cared that for our existing they'll

01:19:12   never going to get one and I care the

01:19:13   Mac Pro exists even if I wasn't gonna

01:19:15   buy one but I totally am probably and

01:19:19   I want Apple to be reaching for the

01:19:24   stars pushing the limits you know going

01:19:26   farther and faster than they've ever

01:19:28   gone before and I want them to keep

01:19:30   pushing that because I think that an

01:19:32   apple that does that is an apple that

01:19:35   makes better products overall yeah I

01:19:37   don't debate that Apple needs to reach

01:19:40   for this it's just again like you

01:19:43   neither of you has to answer to me and

01:19:45   you know I'm not the boss of you and you

01:19:48   can do it just because damn it I want to

01:19:50   and that's a perfectly acceptable reason

01:19:53   but I look at my what is it like two

01:19:55   year old iMac right now and when I write

01:19:58   code on this thing like

01:20:00   the screen is beautiful with the

01:20:02   exception a little bit of burnin the

01:20:03   screen is beautiful it still two years

01:20:06   on feels crazy fast like I don't feel

01:20:09   like I'm waiting for more than a moment

01:20:11   for anything when it comes to

01:20:13   development not obviously if I'm doing

01:20:14   transcodes or something like that that's

01:20:15   a different discussion yeah Asian aliy

01:20:17   the fans spin up but I'm I'm okay with

01:20:20   that I know that makes me a monster but

01:20:22   I'm okay with hearing a fan from time to

01:20:23   time and I look at the iMac Pro and then

01:20:29   I look at the Mac Pro and I feel like

01:20:31   there are on paper anyway deeply

01:20:36   diminishing returns for both I item to

01:20:38   me it's like yeah okay if you're gonna

01:20:40   use the car analogy like yes I spent a

01:20:43   bit more to have a nicer experience when

01:20:47   I Drive two miles to and from work each

01:20:48   day a hundred percent and on the surface

01:20:52   it's not really that different from what

01:20:54   put either you guys are talking about

01:20:55   but I feel like what work but a more apt

01:20:59   analogy is like well why did you get the

01:21:03   regular Ferrari instead of the hyper

01:21:05   lightweight Ferrari

01:21:07   you know like or it's such diminishing

01:21:10   returns like why even bother or or maybe

01:21:13   a more apt analogy would be you know a

01:21:15   Hellcat will get you somewhere just as

01:21:18   quick as a Ferrari will as long as there

01:21:20   are no turns as long as there are no

01:21:21   turns but I mean I guess it's analogies

01:21:23   falling apart as well it's just it seems

01:21:25   like it's it's way more money to get you

01:21:28   not that much more speed that's true of

01:21:31   you BMW - over my court over your record

01:21:34   it's considerably more speed over

01:21:35   brand-new Accord no it's not not

01:21:38   proportional to the money that's always

01:21:39   it's always diminishing returns and you

01:21:40   get over the top it's always by the way

01:21:42   if you're doing parallel tasks it

01:21:44   actually is that much more speed yeah

01:21:47   don't go like the practical

01:21:48   justifications I want this whole I think

01:21:50   a totally an impractical justification

01:21:53   alone it would be worth it but there are

01:21:54   in fact actual practical justification

01:21:56   that's worth it just it's it's again

01:21:59   like you don't have to answer me I'll

01:22:00   let it go it's just it's really hard for

01:22:01   me to understand why any human who lives

01:22:04   in Xcode needs a MacPro like I can see

01:22:07   final cut I could see Lightroom remark

01:22:09   oh you brought up Lightroom earlier I

01:22:10   can make I can make a pretty good

01:22:12   argument that light

01:22:13   could justify MacPro but for someone who

01:22:16   lives and breathes Xcode or even even

01:22:19   more like you know 90 year old

01:22:21   programming languages like Perl I don't

01:22:24   get why one would want a Mac Pro and and

01:22:27   I'll let it go it's just it's don't um

01:22:29   and Swift yeah you should be dying for a

01:22:32   Mac Pro it's not that bad it's not the

01:22:35   gaming angle that you mentioned before

01:22:36   though actually is one of the more

01:22:38   irrelevant

01:22:39   pratik ones because if you reel a lot of

01:22:40   it if you really want a Mac like the

01:22:43   your they force you to buy this gigantic

01:22:47   be incredibly get the the good cheap you

01:22:51   know I mean I Pro is a good deep you but

01:22:52   presumably this one will have a better

01:22:54   one and so if you really are stuck on a

01:22:56   Mac and you really want to play games on

01:22:58   it which you know people said why would

01:22:59   you in the other one I just get a gaming

01:23:00   PC blah blah like it's you know it's we

01:23:04   are we are oddballs to understand that

01:23:06   we have to explain the practical reasons

01:23:11   why people want them like that's what

01:23:12   all those pros are doing like if you do

01:23:14   it for a living

01:23:15   and it will make whatever you're doing

01:23:16   twice as fast or twice as reliable at

01:23:18   the same speed then that's the that's

01:23:22   the reason to get them and it's the

01:23:24   reason professionals by a professional

01:23:25   stuff period like snap-on tools why do

01:23:27   they cost so much more than craftsmen

01:23:28   are they that much better no they're not

01:23:30   that much better but they're better and

01:23:32   if you all you do all day is turn a

01:23:33   wrench get a good one well but on top of

01:23:37   that they also had a ridiculous warranty

01:23:39   do they not craftsmen used to be

01:23:41   guaranteed for life guarantee forever

01:23:42   before like Sears went into business or

01:23:44   whatever that's true I don't I'll let it

01:23:47   go but it's it's it's it's an odd thing

01:23:48   to me again I am a hundred and fifty

01:23:50   percent on board with Apple pursuing

01:23:52   this I completely agree with you and

01:23:55   again gaming is a pretty good reason

01:23:57   because I friggin want to leave me alone

01:23:59   Casey is a good reason which is what I'm

01:24:00   mostly hearing Lightroom is good reason

01:24:02   but if you're just living in Xcode or

01:24:04   terminal or Visual Studio code or

01:24:05   what-have-you it seems a little weird

01:24:06   well I mean this is my home computer

01:24:08   though I'm not getting it for work you

01:24:09   realize like I would never be able to

01:24:10   just try to work why they should give me

01:24:11   a Mac Pro I can't even justify work for

01:24:13   them to get me an iMac for crying out

01:24:14   loud it's gonna be stupid laptop right

01:24:17   like it's a hobby computer like it's the

01:24:19   same you know if you if you had a taxi

01:24:21   business you're like how can you justify

01:24:22   a BMW if your taxes like don't it's

01:24:24   gonna break down and cost you too much

01:24:25   money like

01:24:26   for your taxi but for your home car I'm

01:24:29   gonna BMW because I like cars we are

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01:26:07   rethink what your money can do let's do

01:26:12   some ask ATP we have a twofer with

01:26:15   regard to evil addicting juice bosey

01:26:18   Moncrief writes hey Marco what's your

01:26:20   go-to hand grinder for those of us who

01:26:22   don't want your fancy powered instant

01:26:24   coffee tubes for travel hand grinding

01:26:27   hmm I've had to both hereo first like

01:26:31   the skinny one I forget what it's called

01:26:33   and then I later got the I'm kind of

01:26:35   stubby or one which is called the

01:26:37   Skerton I can

01:26:40   recommend either of them really if you

01:26:43   if you insist on hand grinding coffee

01:26:45   the hereos curtain is the much better

01:26:47   one like the little skinnier one it's it

01:26:50   was useless it was very hard to get

01:26:52   anything out of it thus curtain is

01:26:53   bulkier but substantially faster the

01:26:57   problem is there's a reason why coffee

01:27:00   grinders are all electric because you

01:27:03   need to do a lot of hand cranking to

01:27:05   really get a meaningful amount of coffee

01:27:07   especially if you're doing something

01:27:08   that needs a finer grind like a narrow

01:27:11   press this is one of the many reasons

01:27:13   why I decided after only like one or two

01:27:16   tries that travel coffee setups are not

01:27:19   for me so the only thing I can say is

01:27:23   please try not to do this at all but if

01:27:26   you're going to do it

01:27:27   the hereo Skerton is the one to get and

01:27:30   additionally dog oh boy II would like to

01:27:32   know what is your coffee setup hike I

01:27:34   just found out that you like coffee how

01:27:37   do you just find out that Marco likes

01:27:38   coffee

01:27:39   his blood is coffee that's right anyway

01:27:42   I just found out you like coffee would

01:27:43   like to know more about your setup yeah

01:27:48   alright so basically I'm a crazy coffee

01:27:51   enthusiast if you think I care a lot

01:27:53   about macbook keyboards you haven't seen

01:27:56   me try to make or brew coffee I'm a home

01:27:59   roaster i roast my own coffee on a hot

01:28:02   top roaster I get the unroasted beans

01:28:05   from sweet Maria's I tend to get kenya

01:28:09   beans the vast majority is my favorite

01:28:11   being sweet Maria's is the best resource

01:28:13   I've ever seen

01:28:14   for not only getting unroasted beans but

01:28:17   getting roosters and learning how to use

01:28:18   them so I suggest sweet Maria's calm

01:28:21   they've been doing this for a very long

01:28:23   time and they've been wonderful and if

01:28:25   you're going to start out on a coffee

01:28:26   roaster you can start with the cheap air

01:28:28   popper or a the Dame or 1300 I think our

01:28:32   1,600 yeah that's that's the one I had

01:28:34   first it's decent the hot top is about

01:28:38   three times the price but is three times

01:28:41   better so it's up to you how you how you

01:28:43   want to deal with that but coffee home

01:28:46   roasting is something that nobody should

01:28:49   really do but I do it because I care a

01:28:52   lot about things that people don't care

01:28:53   and I'm very happy with that and I'm

01:28:55   content with that so that being said

01:28:57   when I'm out I mentioned last time I've

01:29:00   been recently trying these these cool

01:29:03   new sudden coffee instant coffee things

01:29:05   like when I'm traveling or on an

01:29:06   airplane or something

01:29:07   it's Southern Coffee is surprisingly

01:29:09   good I also in the meantime have been

01:29:12   recommended to other ones

01:29:13   voilá spelled like viola you-know-who

01:29:16   wallah

01:29:16   coffee and Swift cup coffee both of

01:29:19   which are also like kind of pricey

01:29:22   high-end instant coffee packets both of

01:29:26   them are good Swift cup I think might be

01:29:28   my favorite of all three so far I have

01:29:31   to try a little bit more of it but I'm

01:29:32   very impressed by the Swift cup flavor

01:29:34   but southern coffee is actually more

01:29:37   practical because you can use the tube

01:29:38   as a stirrer which is nice anyway at

01:29:41   home when I'm using my home roasted

01:29:43   beans I grind them with a Bharat's of

01:29:47   virtuoso and I put them in a narrow

01:29:49   press and I use a fairly imprecise

01:29:52   inverted Aeropress method and I use a

01:29:56   electric kettle to pour hot water into

01:29:58   it that's about it that's my coffee

01:30:00   setup I pour I press the coffee into a

01:30:03   mug and then I drink it usually I'm

01:30:07   making coffee for me and TIFF at the

01:30:08   same time so I use two air presses in

01:30:10   parallel one in each hand and it's

01:30:13   totally fine I've tried pretty much

01:30:16   every way I know of to brew coffee I had

01:30:21   way I've tried French presses drip pots

01:30:23   good drip hot bad drip pots butters

01:30:26   right I have I have tried the butter

01:30:28   that's terrible I have tried the what's

01:30:32   the big expensive oh the clover machine

01:30:33   I've tried the clover machine both at a

01:30:35   real coffee shop and then later at

01:30:37   Starbucks I've tried lots of different

01:30:39   brew I've tried a vacuum brewer I have

01:30:42   tried so many different ways to brew

01:30:43   coffee and what it comes down to is the

01:30:47   best way to brew one cup of coffee or

01:30:49   two if you're going to operate two in

01:30:51   parallel is that is the Aeropress the

01:30:53   best way to prove more than that is the

01:30:55   Hario v60 pour over cone into whatever

01:30:57   vessel you feel like that's it all right

01:31:01   Bryce minty would like to know you know

01:31:04   I'm finally getting around to replacing

01:31:05   that awful file set-top box at my house

01:31:07   which TiVo are you using John and not

01:31:09   sure if the $750 for a new bolt and

01:31:12   lifetime service is really worth it

01:31:13   kind of like apples laptops TiVo line is

01:31:16   not in a great place right now because

01:31:19   all of their newest machines are using

01:31:23   this incredibly stupid bent box design

01:31:26   like it looks like a regular set-top box

01:31:28   would imagine you bent it like and not

01:31:30   even in the middle so it makes this kind

01:31:31   of like weird inverted V shape the bend

01:31:35   is stupid and you can't stack stuff on

01:31:37   half of it but worse than the bend much

01:31:39   worse is the fact that the thing is very

01:31:42   small and so they have a you know low

01:31:46   diameter fan and if it has to spin very

01:31:47   fast and makes a very annoying

01:31:49   high-pitched noise so all of the bent

01:31:51   box TiVo's are noisier than the much

01:31:55   larger flat box TiVo's that they

01:31:57   replaced which is a shame because the

01:32:00   top end TiVo the top end bent box TiVo I

01:32:03   have one that well actually not

01:32:05   toughened that anymore now I have that

01:32:06   Fox thing but I think it's basically

01:32:08   same sort of voice control they are

01:32:11   otherwise very good they are fast

01:32:14   they're small the interface has not been

01:32:19   entirely ruined by this new interface

01:32:20   that they're trying to roll out I still

01:32:22   haven't gotten the new interface but it

01:32:23   looks pretty gross but the old one is

01:32:25   good like it is a good product it is a

01:32:27   good TiVo except for the fact that the

01:32:29   box has been and it makes awesome noise

01:32:31   if you can find a Romeo Pro which I also

01:32:34   have one of it is not quite as fancy as

01:32:38   the latest bent box ones but it's still

01:32:41   plenty fast it is way bigger

01:32:42   ridiculously bigger which is kind of a

01:32:45   shame but it is quieter so there is no

01:32:48   perfect TiVo to get I would say that if

01:32:51   you have like an entertainment center or

01:32:52   some place where you're not going to

01:32:53   hear the fan or you don't care about fan

01:32:55   noises or whatever then the stupid vent

01:32:58   box top-of-the-line TiVo's are still

01:33:00   pretty good t-bo's but if you care about

01:33:02   the noise or want to save some money

01:33:03   look into a romeo pro if you can find

01:33:06   one because they are much more

01:33:07   conventional and straightforward and

01:33:10   flat and slightly quieter excellent

01:33:13   and finally kg writes what kind of

01:33:15   clipboard management apps are you using

01:33:17   if any on your Mac

01:33:19   I use Alfred as my both app launcher as

01:33:22   well as you know kind of do everything

01:33:24   machine and it includes some very basic

01:33:27   clipboard like history and management

01:33:29   and stuff like that that has been great

01:33:31   it is exactly what I want and nothing

01:33:34   more and that that has worked really

01:33:37   well for me I did beta test pastebot

01:33:40   which is by the same folks that do tweet

01:33:44   BOTS and net bot r.i.p and that was

01:33:48   really good but more powerful than what

01:33:52   I personally wanted it can do things

01:33:54   like you know filter or like you know

01:33:56   modify what you've copied and and maybe

01:33:59   if I spent the time I would end up

01:34:00   deciding oh I actually really do like

01:34:02   this but for my needs it was it was

01:34:05   overkill for what I'm looking for from

01:34:07   it Marco do you have any sort of

01:34:09   clipboard management setup yeah I I

01:34:12   actually really really love clipboard

01:34:15   management like it I came fairly late to

01:34:18   it like I think I was like most of the

01:34:20   way through my job at tumblr before I

01:34:22   started using a clipboard manager and I

01:34:23   wish I had done it earlier once I got

01:34:25   into it because you know programming and

01:34:27   just general computer use there is a lot

01:34:29   of opportunities to like stack up a

01:34:32   couple things in the clipboard then

01:34:33   paste them down somewhere like it's the

01:34:35   kind of thing like having multiple

01:34:37   clipboards or multiple levels to a

01:34:40   stacked clipboard is really really nice

01:34:43   in so many types of work on computers

01:34:46   and it's one of the biggest things that

01:34:47   I think it's kind of a shame that iOS

01:34:49   not only doesn't have it but probably

01:34:50   never will have it when you're working

01:34:53   on iOS one of the biggest things I miss

01:34:54   but I've tried a lot of them I think

01:34:58   I've tried almost all of them started

01:35:00   out on one called jump cut which was

01:35:02   like just a clipboard manager it's open

01:35:03   it was open source back forever ago I

01:35:05   don't know where it is now and then I

01:35:07   later moved on to launch bar and you

01:35:11   know I've also you know back in the day

01:35:13   I used Quicksilver as my like fast

01:35:14   launcher than for awhile I just did

01:35:16   spotlight as the launcher as they as an

01:35:18   almost fast launcher and then launch bar

01:35:21   kind of combines everything into one app

01:35:23   for me it is a super fast launcher and

01:35:24   also my favorite clipboard manager and I

01:35:28   know like you know Alfred and there's a

01:35:30   bunch of other ones out there now

01:35:32   I'm sure they're all great just launch

01:35:33   bar happens to be the one that meshed

01:35:36   best with me and the way I like it to

01:35:38   work and the way I like it to look and

01:35:40   behave and everything else so I use

01:35:42   launch bar for that and and kind of like

01:35:45   what you said Casey I'm I'm a heavy but

01:35:48   shallow user of it like yeah yeah yeah I

01:35:51   use it constantly very I heavily use I

01:35:54   use the crap out of it but I only scrape

01:35:57   the surface of the available features I

01:36:00   literally only use it to like launch

01:36:02   apps find emoji to paste into things

01:36:05   which is a fairly recent thing and use

01:36:09   multiple clipboards that's it I don't do

01:36:10   anything where you can like you know hit

01:36:12   a different key and send it to another

01:36:13   workflow or sent it to a script or

01:36:15   capitalize it in this way like I don't

01:36:16   do any of that it's only an app launcher

01:36:19   and I click on a clipboard manager for

01:36:21   me and that's how it's whatever it cost

01:36:23   it's like 40 or 50 bucks whatever it

01:36:25   cost it's totally worth it just for that

01:36:27   because it is such an incredible part of

01:36:29   my workflow doing pretty much everything

01:36:32   because that clipboard manager it's so

01:36:34   good that being said if you don't want

01:36:35   to spend that much there are

01:36:36   alternatives as I as you know as both of

01:36:38   us said but I highly suggest whatever a

01:36:42   clipboard manager you end up with if you

01:36:44   don't use one try one if you do anything

01:36:48   on a Mac ever try a clipboard manager

01:36:50   because once you get into the habit it's

01:36:53   like you know so I mean so much of

01:36:55   modern work is copying and pasting stuff

01:36:56   like from one place to another and it's

01:36:58   so nice to people to like copy three

01:37:01   things and then go to a go to the other

01:37:03   app and paste one paste to paste three

01:37:06   like to have tinnitus to go back and

01:37:08   forth so much it's it's such a

01:37:10   revolution and how you how you use your

01:37:12   clipboard you will wonder how anything

01:37:14   ever doesn't use like how anyone gets

01:37:17   around not using a clipboard it's almost

01:37:19   as big of a change as having a clipboard

01:37:22   versus not having a clipboard like at

01:37:24   the very first time you were like when

01:37:26   you were we were all learning how to use

01:37:27   computers that first time you discovered

01:37:29   the clipboard and that you could copy

01:37:31   and paste things like it like it's

01:37:33   almost that big of a deal

01:37:34   once you can have like a little history

01:37:37   or a stack John so I use jump cut for

01:37:41   years because I just wanted basic

01:37:43   functionality and

01:37:45   I use pay spot and I don't use much of

01:37:48   the fancy functionality but it like jump

01:37:50   cut was fine but pay spot it just has a

01:37:51   little bit more polish you know like all

01:37:53   the all the Bott things is just nicer so

01:37:55   I'm gladly paid for it to have a Polish

01:37:57   and hopefully more well supported think

01:37:59   of this Marco covered most of the

01:38:01   benefits of of a clipboard manager let

01:38:06   me tell you about a couple of the

01:38:06   dangers one danger as Marco pointed out

01:38:09   is that it will change your mental model

01:38:12   of how computers work and I've done this

01:38:14   a couple of times where I've been on

01:38:15   someone else's computer even even just

01:38:17   like I'm on my wife's computer and one

01:38:19   of my kids accounts where they don't run

01:38:20   a clipboard manager like it's the same

01:38:22   computer but they don't have been don't

01:38:23   run pay spot or whatever and I will be

01:38:27   doing stuff in the computer and I will

01:38:30   not realize way too late that I just

01:38:33   thought I was queuing up three things in

01:38:34   the clipboard and in reality I was just

01:38:36   overriding and the all the things except

01:38:41   for the most recent one don't exist

01:38:43   anywhere else like I will I will like

01:38:45   copy something out of a document close

01:38:47   the document without saving it go to

01:38:49   another document copy something out

01:38:50   close without saving it and like and

01:38:51   then you know copy another thing and

01:38:53   then go to the destination expecting to

01:38:54   paste in all three of those things and

01:38:55   guess what two of them are gone like

01:38:57   gone gone like as in data loss gone as

01:39:00   in I didn't write them down anywhere and

01:39:01   they're gone why because my mental model

01:39:03   is that copy and paste is like a cue and

01:39:05   it's not it's just one place and that

01:39:07   makes me sad the other thing is some of

01:39:09   these clipboard managers have a way to

01:39:11   synchronize your clippings either like

01:39:13   through iCloud or across other machines

01:39:15   or whatever and applications also have a

01:39:20   way to blacklist something and those two

01:39:22   features should make a tickle in your

01:39:24   mind because one of the things that I

01:39:27   think they put in a blacklist by default

01:39:28   is like keychain access or one password

01:39:30   yeah if you copy and paste the password

01:39:33   and have any kind of cloud

01:39:35   synchronization on and don't have that

01:39:37   app blacklisted guess what you just

01:39:38   spread your unencrypted password to our

01:39:40   possibly encrypted either way you just

01:39:42   spread your password through cloud

01:39:43   storage and possibly to other computers

01:39:45   that you may or may not control so be

01:39:48   careful with your clipboard manager they

01:39:50   the good ones have tools for you to not

01:39:52   have that happen you have to use those

01:39:54   tools which is kind of the reason I can

01:39:56   imagine why Apple doesn't build this in

01:39:58   right like what does an apple just build

01:39:59   in multiple clipboards they put a clock

01:40:01   in the menu bar after all that's a

01:40:03   pretty old reference there but they're

01:40:06   done so many things since then there are

01:40:08   dangerous to this and I'm not sure which

01:40:11   is the worse the these the possible

01:40:12   security danger or the fact that you get

01:40:14   so used to it that trying to use a

01:40:16   computer without it the computer feels

01:40:18   broken yeah those are bad reasons I'm

01:40:23   not saying that's the reason you

01:40:24   shouldn't use it like I will I will use

01:40:25   it forever like I have to use it like I

01:40:27   can't go back yeah right exactly but but

01:40:30   just keep in mind that once you get on

01:40:32   board this train which you should get on

01:40:34   board and it's good keep those other

01:40:35   things in mind when you're using a

01:40:37   foreign computer keep in mind that the

01:40:39   clipboard is no longer Q and just

01:40:41   disable the synchronization thing if you

01:40:43   don't wanna use it like that's the

01:40:43   easiest solution to that like do you

01:40:45   really care that your clipboard is

01:40:46   synchronized across whatever if you

01:40:47   don't just turn that stuff off I have

01:40:49   never used any kind of syncing like that

01:40:51   I like that that to me sounds like a

01:40:53   recipe for pain with iOS in the Mac now

01:40:58   right yeah and it works like 70 percent

01:41:01   of the time yeah I know actually works

01:41:04   at your past one won't actually sync

01:41:05   across or you hit paste on the other

01:41:08   device and it just blocks for like eight

01:41:10   seconds well it tries to figure out what

01:41:12   the heck it should be pasting delightful

01:41:15   huh between that and drag-and-drop it's

01:41:17   like man everything on iOS has made

01:41:19   slower by progress yeah oh no think the

01:41:23   configure is that most of these

01:41:24   clipboard history apps have a way for

01:41:26   you to limit the size of things if you

01:41:28   like me occasionally find yourself

01:41:30   copying and pasting 500 megabytes of

01:41:31   text from your awesome text editor you

01:41:34   don't really don't want your clipboard

01:41:37   manager to be like oh let me hold on to

01:41:38   that 500 Meg's for you

01:41:40   that's so that most don't have a

01:41:41   threshold to say look if it's bigger

01:41:43   than 50 Meg's just let that one just let

01:41:45   that one slide I'm not gonna be I don't

01:41:47   want to paste that an hour from now

01:41:48   alright thanks to our sponsors this week

01:41:51   betterment hellofresh

01:41:52   and molecule and we'll see you next week

01:41:57   now the show is over they didn't even

01:42:00   mean to begin as it was accidental oh it

01:42:05   was accidental

01:42:08   johnny research Margo and Casey wouldn't

01:42:12   let him because it was accidental he was

01:42:16   accidental you can find the CAS pyl is

01:42:32   Esther that's Casey Liz and a RC o AR m

01:42:37   auntie Marco Arment

01:42:39   SI r AC Syracuse

01:42:55   I was like no but more things I've been

01:42:59   looking at in YouTube I'm looking at

01:43:01   YouTube videos I had I find some video

01:43:06   that was talking about straight cut

01:43:07   gears and race transmissions and why

01:43:09   they're better I was so frustrated at

01:43:11   the video not explaining to me why the

01:43:12   adequately explained to me why they're

01:43:14   better that I was just like googling for

01:43:15   like race transmission straight cut

01:43:17   gears on you to I'm like what does

01:43:19   YouTube think of what I ended up here

01:43:21   but then I ended up in on this rat hole

01:43:23   of like explainer Technology explainer

01:43:26   videos and I found a lot of them very

01:43:28   frustrating like popular videos that are

01:43:32   very poor quality like you you start

01:43:34   going into the the dark corner of

01:43:36   YouTube is the completely incorrect

01:43:39   bogus how planes fly videos right it's

01:43:43   kind of like I feel like that you know

01:43:44   the the conspiracy theories about how

01:43:45   the earth is flat and stuff and like

01:43:47   kids are finding them like kids don't

01:43:48   watch this video that's not how planes

01:43:49   fly and there are videos out there

01:43:53   explaining why all the other videos

01:43:54   telling you how planes fly are wrong but

01:43:56   I don't they're not as high in the

01:43:57   search results as the bogus one it's

01:43:59   very upsetting anyway but that's like

01:44:03   both a fun corner of YouTube technology

01:44:05   explainer videos but also just filled

01:44:08   with garbage like really bad low res

01:44:10   computer animations that they probably

01:44:12   didn't make with like a computer voice

01:44:13   talking over it like like the old fred

01:44:16   voice not like siri but like the old

01:44:18   fred voice talking over it like they

01:44:19   couldn't even get a human i guess these

01:44:21   might be machine generated i don't know

01:44:23   or from like yeah i I don't understand

01:44:27   it I don't understand who's watching

01:44:28   them but they they seem to have like

01:44:30   they come up high in the search results

01:44:32   I wish I it was like it's like both them

01:44:34   down and say hide this and never let

01:44:36   another human see it because it's bad

01:44:38   but they're good wants to remember the

01:44:39   classic good one is like you've I think

01:44:41   we've all seen this that one from the

01:44:42   50s or 60s explaining how like a

01:44:45   transmission works or that was I forget

01:44:48   was explained it was like from GM or

01:44:49   something and it's like that black and

01:44:50   white it's kind of like filmstrip from

01:44:53   school and in the 60s but it was the

01:44:56   first thing that I ever saw that

01:44:57   explained to me how

01:45:00   like a traditional gear differential

01:45:02   works despite having like assembled and

01:45:05   used many of them on a remote-control

01:45:06   cars it never quite clicks in my brains

01:45:08   like yeah but how did this work and this

01:45:10   one did it from like first principles

01:45:12   with like to tinker toys I'm like oh now

01:45:14   I get it and it finally all came

01:45:16   together like this is our every

01:45:17   engineering explainer but I gotta go

01:45:19   find that one

01:45:19   find that one

00:00:00   you just starting him out Casey huh

00:00:02   carries he's rebooting he said it

00:00:04   momentarily I mean that was a few

00:00:06   minutes ago

00:00:07   you know I mixed a reboot it takes a

00:00:08   while not that long

00:00:10   not on my shiny new macro mm-hmm all

00:00:13   right hello

00:00:14   sorry rebooting your slow computer I'm

00:00:17   gonna be like that it's faster than

00:00:19   John's that's probably true at the

00:00:22   reboot already running my reboot is for

00:00:25   system updates I didn't have to I just

00:00:27   had this sneaking suspicion that I

00:00:29   needed to the king I have empathy for

00:00:31   the Machine John you've got that reboot

00:00:33   feeling my god

00:00:36   that's a I was Top Gun wasn't it

00:00:40   that's not where that song is from but

00:00:42   yes that movie did feature that song

00:00:43   take me home or lose me forever John

00:00:45   siracusa you know uh fun fact

00:00:51   deysa thunder was the better movie

00:00:52   between the two of them because of the

00:00:54   same movie I'm pretty sure they're not

00:00:56   Days of Thunder was the better one why

00:00:58   why do you think that because well a

00:01:01   everyone is going to tell me I'm wrong

00:01:02   and they're probably right but I don't

00:01:03   care because planes are not as fun as

00:01:05   cars what I figured you know you had

00:01:11   some no no reasonable foundation for

00:01:13   your opinion but no no that's not now

00:01:15   let's talk about vinyl after this

00:01:17   high-definition vinyl yes I love I love

00:01:20   that story so much like they're like if

00:01:22   only there were some other you know

00:01:23   round music medium that was longer than

00:01:26   a vinyl record and could allow for more

00:01:28   precise audio right yeah so I read it I

00:01:32   thought it was gonna be like a high

00:01:34   definition vinyl but instead it seemed

00:01:36   like it was just a way to more precisely

00:01:39   make vinyl but everything else about it

00:01:41   was the same like it wasn't higher

00:01:43   definition it was like if we can really

00:01:45   carefully carve grooves in vinyl like

00:01:48   more carefully than usual it's like

00:01:50   alright I guess I mean sure like it's

00:01:53   not okay

00:01:54   I don't understand like I thought I was

00:01:58   gonna be like a higher density or I was

00:02:00   gonna do like it was gonna I was kind of

00:02:01   imagining that it would make little pits

00:02:03   for like ones and zeros like it would be

00:02:05   like final but CDs on vinyl you know I

00:02:06   mean there's lots of things you could do

00:02:08   to make high to actual high definition

00:02:11   vinyl but instead they're just more

00:02:13   careful

00:02:13   carving grooves in vinyl yeah I've got

00:02:16   I've got I've been sent that a couple

00:02:17   times already I guess things like you

00:02:19   know as somebody who has now seen you

00:02:20   know all the sides of this like the

00:02:23   appeal of vinyl has nothing to do with

00:02:25   its sound quality or fidelity or dynamic

00:02:29   range or any the things they're

00:02:30   proposing to to increase like it if you

00:02:34   want those things you shouldn't be using

00:02:37   vinyl at all we're using digital sources

00:02:40   this is this is just crazy to me anyway

00:02:44   we should start with follow up iOS

00:02:45   eleven point three has a new battery

00:02:48   throttling notification which we were

00:02:51   made aware of sometime in the last week

00:02:53   Stephen Devine was the first that I

00:02:55   noticed to send us an image it reads as

00:02:57   follows this iPhone has experienced an

00:03:00   unexpected shutdown because the battery

00:03:01   was unable to deliver the necessary peak

00:03:03   power performance management has been

00:03:05   applied to help prevent this from

00:03:06   happening again like a passive voice

00:03:09   performance management has been applied

00:03:10   who applied it what happened experienced

00:03:13   shutdown it experienced it well that is

00:03:16   kind of true we did yeah the phone did

00:03:18   experience didn't blame you

00:03:19   there's no actor in that situation the

00:03:21   phone did experience something you shut

00:03:23   down your iPhone because of a problem

00:03:25   no I this I you know I'm very happy that

00:03:29   they are notifying the user when battery

00:03:32   throttling happens that in a big picture

00:03:35   wise that's good they they should have

00:03:37   been doing this all along and that would

00:03:38   have made the problem a lot less severe

00:03:40   I don't think the wording they've chosen

00:03:42   here is particularly helpful or even

00:03:46   honest you know performance management

00:03:49   has been applied I don't think a lot of

00:03:51   people are going to correctly know that

00:03:54   that means your phone will now be slowed

00:03:55   down like that that's a pretty big

00:03:58   difference then performance management

00:04:00   has been applied that is a like you know

00:04:03   dark pattern euphemism that is

00:04:05   intentionally written to mask the truth

00:04:09   to mate to confuse and kind of hide

00:04:11   what's actually going on in this huge

00:04:14   paragraph that they know most people are

00:04:17   not going to read and if they do you

00:04:18   read it they're good they're not really

00:04:18   going to understand what it's really

00:04:20   doing I wish that we've been a little

00:04:22   more clear in the language but at least

00:04:24   they're under firing people it I just

00:04:26   wish they around if I

00:04:27   in a more honest way they don't offer

00:04:30   any remedies like the dialogue should

00:04:31   say okay like here's what happened and

00:04:34   what is there anything I can do about it

00:04:36   actually in this case there is the way

00:04:37   you can do about is get a new battery

00:04:38   for your phone right all right offer

00:04:39   something like it's not even as far as I

00:04:41   can tell it's not even a place like a

00:04:43   you know tap here for more information

00:04:44   like if a user is interested enough in

00:04:47   this very confusing vague goodbye he

00:04:50   could mean a lot of different things and

00:04:51   you I want to know more Gaz it sounds

00:04:53   like something bad might have happened

00:04:54   to my phone presumably they knew

00:04:55   something bad happened to the phones

00:04:56   they were using it two seconds ago and

00:04:58   then the screen went black and had to

00:04:59   wait for it to reboot right so if that

00:05:02   happened to me and then my phone came

00:05:04   back and it said this I would be like

00:05:05   what what can I do about that

00:05:07   and Apple has answers there are easy

00:05:09   answers hey go get a new battery but

00:05:11   they don't offer that in this dialogue

00:05:13   anyway yeah they could be a little more

00:05:15   video they can say like your battery

00:05:17   cannot can no longer run the phone at

00:05:20   full speed like that it is more direct

00:05:23   that is telling them like your phone

00:05:25   won't be slow it's the batteries fault

00:05:27   it's something that you can therefore

00:05:29   you know have some control over you need

00:05:31   to replace the battery like that you

00:05:32   know using language that is more honest

00:05:35   and accountable I think would do a lot

00:05:38   of good here the whole point of this

00:05:41   notification is to fix the problem they

00:05:43   had before which is they were slowing

00:05:46   down people's phones without telling

00:05:47   them this kind of sort of fixes that but

00:05:52   if the people don't really know what's

00:05:53   going on and they later find out oh my

00:05:56   phone has been slowed down by Apple you

00:05:59   know because of this thing I don't think

00:06:02   they're gonna feel better

00:06:03   necessarily than they would if they

00:06:04   weren't told at all because if this is

00:06:06   all they saw and they didn't really

00:06:07   understand what was going on then they

00:06:09   effectively weren't told about so it

00:06:11   doesn't really solve the problem I'm

00:06:13   glad that they have a notification I

00:06:15   think you nailed it Marco that you know

00:06:16   it may not be perfect there's certainly

00:06:18   you know issues that we can and just

00:06:20   have taken with it but I do think that

00:06:22   telling the user what the hell is going

00:06:23   on is a good first step in and I welcome

00:06:26   this improvement yeah but you need to

00:06:27   subtract some of the California from

00:06:29   this dialog and apply a little bit of

00:06:30   East Coast to it good friggin luck my

00:06:34   friend I agree with you but good luck it

00:06:36   mean how can how can you expect people

00:06:38   who don't live in the real world to

00:06:39   communicate with people who live in

00:06:41   wordid by Apple in California oh well

00:06:48   done all right moving on Mac OS this is

00:06:52   actually breaking news and I mean that

00:06:53   genuinely this is just breaking in the

00:06:56   last like hour or two so we're recording

00:06:57   this in the evening of April 11th on

00:06:59   Wednesday night and apparently a few

00:07:03   people are reporting all at the same

00:07:04   moment that Mac OS ten point thirteen

00:07:08   point four is now going to warn users

00:07:11   about 32-bit apps this is a quote from

00:07:13   Jason Snell Apple's long transition away

00:07:16   from 32-bit software takes another step

00:07:17   beginning April 12 when the clock

00:07:19   strikes switching our local time Mac's

00:07:21   running Mac OS ten point thirteen point

00:07:24   four will display a warning the first

00:07:25   time any non apple app that isn't 64-bit

00:07:29   compliant is opened interesting I mean

00:07:33   this isn't that surprising they're

00:07:34   clearly you know like they have not been

00:07:37   that secretive that like 32-bit support

00:07:39   is on its way out this is it's just like

00:07:41   what they did in iOS when iOS 11 I

00:07:44   believe was the one that dropped right I

00:07:46   think so yeah and so like for iOS 10

00:07:48   like ten point for whatever temp with

00:07:50   you whatever the last version of ten was

00:07:51   they started showing this alert then

00:07:53   began you know the over iOS apps and

00:07:55   they added a little section in settings

00:07:57   where you could see which of your apps

00:07:58   was 32-bit and so that's that's nice you

00:08:01   can do this I think it's gonna be more

00:08:03   disruptive on the Mac like you like we

00:08:05   mentioned briefly last week but you know

00:08:08   telling telling users what's about to

00:08:09   happen before it happens in you know six

00:08:11   months to a year or whenever it would be

00:08:13   is certainly a good thing this dialogue

00:08:16   I think is better worded this one

00:08:18   actually tells you what's what the

00:08:19   problem is I don't know I've always

00:08:21   found these apps like when when the one

00:08:23   happened on ten point whatever nobody I

00:08:25   knew who was who didn't already know

00:08:27   where the dialogue is about guess

00:08:29   correctly from a thing and I don't know

00:08:30   how they should have worked because

00:08:31   people don't care about 32 or 64 but but

00:08:34   what it actually says is though it's a

00:08:37   two line dialogue guys got the bold line

00:08:38   and then the longer non bold sentence

00:08:40   underneath it says whatever the

00:08:41   application name is not optimized for

00:08:43   your Mac now yeah this actually is a

00:08:45   terrible dialogue now about now is not

00:08:47   optimized for your Mac that's not really

00:08:49   true like I know what they're trying to

00:08:51   get at but but it makes it seem like the

00:08:53   same app that

00:08:54   running fine yesterday now somehow like

00:08:56   because people read optimized and think

00:08:58   it means slower or something and right

00:08:59   it's the same speed as it was yesterday

00:09:00   right and then the other part says this

00:09:02   app needs to be updated by its developer

00:09:04   to improve compatibility that's that's

00:09:06   closer to true because yeah but what the

00:09:09   remedy is developer of the app needs to

00:09:11   do something like you user can't do

00:09:13   anything about this the developer needs

00:09:14   to do it and why isn't it to be updated

00:09:16   to improve compatibility compatible what

00:09:18   compatibility with an OS that Apple is

00:09:20   going to release sometime in the semi

00:09:22   near future that's what they don't say

00:09:24   that that's what it's about so it's

00:09:26   tough to word this one I kind of get

00:09:27   that but that's actually really bad so

00:09:30   like you know so not your are not

00:09:32   optimized means it might be slow which

00:09:34   is very different from it's going to

00:09:36   stop working in six months if you update

00:09:38   your your Mac OS and when the iOS dialog

00:09:40   came out if I remember correctly I think

00:09:42   it's a summons of that it won't work in

00:09:45   future versions of iOS or in a future

00:09:47   version of iOS but this like to improve

00:09:50   compatibility that's pretty euphemistic

00:09:53   too that's like you know what they

00:09:55   should say is this appease me related by

00:09:58   its developer to work on a future

00:09:59   version of Mac OS something like that

00:10:02   that's even a little more vague about

00:10:03   the timeline but just to say like you

00:10:06   know improve compatibility doesn't mean

00:10:07   anything not optimized means that are

00:10:10   run slowly the truth here is this is

00:10:12   going to stop working completely soon

00:10:14   and the iOS 11 dialogue said app name

00:10:18   needs to be updated which i think is

00:10:19   better than app name he's not optimizing

00:10:22   she's now optimized where it needs to be

00:10:24   updated it's much more clear and then

00:10:25   the the subtext was the developer of

00:10:27   this app needs to update to work with

00:10:29   iOS 11 so not only was it clear that's

00:10:31   pretty nice to be updated so it will

00:10:33   work we're like a future OS but it tells

00:10:34   you the name iOS 11 so yeah the iowa's

00:10:37   dialogue was definitely better yeah that

00:10:38   is perfect

00:10:39   oh wait before we move on so the so that

00:10:41   dialogue has buttons it has an OK button

00:10:44   which is just like ok whatever nothing

00:10:45   happens

00:10:46   your app will launch them by the way

00:10:47   like it doesn't stop your app from

00:10:49   launching it just shows this the first

00:10:50   time you launch it maybe you say ok just

00:10:51   launches and it's just like it was the

00:10:53   day before the style I hear there's a

00:10:55   learn more button and learn more button

00:10:57   takes you to Apple's

00:10:58   knowledgebase article about this which

00:11:00   is pretty good and it explains you know

00:11:02   what's going on in more detail than the

00:11:04   dialogue obviously which by the way this

00:11:06   is

00:11:06   you know the iOS thing lacks this it

00:11:09   doesn't there's no place to get more

00:11:10   information as far as I can tell it and

00:11:11   I should try it I try to get that to

00:11:13   come up and tap it or something anyway

00:11:15   the part that stuck out to me in this

00:11:17   knowledgebase article is when it gets to

00:11:20   the point where like explains to you

00:11:22   like you can't do anything about this

00:11:23   developer needs updated this is why I

00:11:25   blah blah near the end there's a section

00:11:28   that says how do I get in touch with the

00:11:30   app developer which i think is a good

00:11:32   question

00:11:33   so you telling me you know people see

00:11:35   this out log and I say the developer

00:11:36   needs to update and they're like

00:11:36   developer like I don't do I even know

00:11:40   what that is let alone who it is how

00:11:41   would I find the developer of this app

00:11:43   and if I was a tasked with writing this

00:11:48   I would find myself writing like seven

00:11:51   paragraphs about like well so sometimes

00:11:56   it's not an individual sometimes it's a

00:11:58   company sometimes the company that used

00:11:59   to make the application is gone you know

00:12:00   like how would you find the person maybe

00:12:02   they've moved on maybe they don't have

00:12:03   that job anymore maybe no one is

00:12:05   maintaining this software you know

00:12:07   there's no 100% sure way to find the

00:12:10   person who wrote this but like of course

00:12:12   they can't do that like they're not

00:12:13   gonna go on for 20 pages so they have a

00:12:15   very short bit of information that like

00:12:18   I don't know I can't think of much

00:12:21   better but this seems bad to me the

00:12:23   easiest way to contact a developer is to

00:12:25   look them up on the web to find the name

00:12:28   of the developer of an app open the app

00:12:30   click the app name and the menu bar and

00:12:31   choose about so they're saying to the

00:12:32   about that is two sentences right first

00:12:34   one says look them up on the web what if

00:12:36   the developer is John Smith look them up

00:12:38   on the web the about box maybe it will

00:12:41   have link to their website but maybe you

00:12:42   will just have a name or maybe it'll

00:12:44   just say my cool software company

00:12:45   incorporated you know 2010 right it's

00:12:50   that's really just throwing people into

00:12:51   the deep end I don't know do Google

00:12:53   search they figure it out maybe you'll

00:12:56   find somebody this is gonna cause people

00:12:58   with the same name as a 32-bit app

00:13:00   developers to get a lot of bad email my

00:13:03   favorite part of this entire page is the

00:13:05   very first sentence in the body text

00:13:07   state of the art technology is what

00:13:10   makes a Mac a Mac that was written years

00:13:12   ago though has been updated as

00:13:14   knowledgebase article yeah I was gonna

00:13:15   say like look at the Mac's that are for

00:13:17   sale today and tell me which of them

00:13:19   have state of the art technology

00:13:20   all of the maksud are for sale not just

00:13:23   the most recent models let's see does

00:13:25   the MacBook Air have state of the art

00:13:27   technology how about the Mac Mini it is

00:13:30   still a product in their lineup we are

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00:15:40   our show Shawn Harding writes hey I had

00:15:47   one of those Pro clip mounts that went

00:15:48   into a gap in the dash for my Audi s5 it

00:15:51   not only went in the gap but also had

00:15:53   adhesive I was hesitant but gave in and

00:15:56   I lost my desktop hello sorry things are

00:15:59   happening on my computer where the fuck

00:16:00   did that go while you were reading did

00:16:02   the window disappear out from under your

00:16:04   eyeballs well because I was opening a

00:16:07   new window in before this all before I

00:16:10   started reading all this and then it

00:16:11   opened and then things disappear your

00:16:13   computer is slow Oh would you stop

00:16:17   you're opening a window then you had

00:16:19   time to read two sentences then the

00:16:21   window finally opened I was opening up

00:16:22   in the nCWIT window leave me alone now

00:16:24   let me reboot this whole fuckin thing

00:16:26   what are using VNC for what are you

00:16:29   remotely controlling I'm remotely

00:16:31   controlling the laptop that's sitting

00:16:32   like 2 2 inches away from me because I

00:16:34   am trying to to look at something for

00:16:37   work real quick so I don't have to worry

00:16:39   about it

00:16:39   are you doing air traffic control during

00:16:41   this podcast what's going on are you

00:16:42   trying to land planes with us we are

00:16:47   talking with the Mac Pro yet you can't

00:16:48   we be paying your bills and stuff yeah I

00:16:49   know I know I know I'm we're getting

00:16:51   there right so let me just reboot this

00:16:52   whole damn thing

00:16:53   Sean holding lights I'm rebooting

00:16:56   nothing not literally repeating no just

00:16:58   segments he's trying to keep that out of

00:16:59   the show but I'm pretty sure he's going

00:17:00   in no it's not going on please now Sean

00:17:03   Harding writes I had one of those Pro

00:17:05   clip mounts that went in the gap in the

00:17:06   day it went into a gap in the dash for

00:17:08   my Audi s5 and not only one in the gap

00:17:10   but it also had adhesive I was hesitant

00:17:12   but gave in and now I have a big gap in

00:17:13   the trim and adhesive residue two thumbs

00:17:16   down so the pro clip mounts that I was

00:17:18   talking about last week if I go in your

00:17:19   car like they're made for each

00:17:20   individual car model certain you know

00:17:23   the design of certain dashboards and

00:17:24   stuff like the you know certain ones are

00:17:26   gonna be easier or harder to fix

00:17:28   something very securely to than others I

00:17:30   lucked out in that mine just uses the

00:17:33   air vent and just kind of uses like a

00:17:34   pressure fit inside the air vent top and

00:17:36   bottom so that it doesn't leave anything

00:17:38   behind and there's no like permanent -

00:17:40   damage should buy it but if your car is

00:17:43   one where it has to do something a

00:17:44   little more aggressive then you know

00:17:47   that makes

00:17:47   to to have that be a problem for you you

00:17:50   know I just it isn't a problem for me

00:17:52   also its Elise maybe you don't want to

00:17:54   mess with the - because who knows what

00:17:56   they'll say about that when you try to

00:17:58   give it back the thing about the vent

00:17:59   ones that some people wrote in about is

00:18:02   they're like oh isn't it bad to keep

00:18:04   your phone there like in the winter with

00:18:05   heat blowing out of the vent on it and I

00:18:08   just assumed that every car has like

00:18:09   that little dial or whatever that lets

00:18:11   you turn off the vent and I would

00:18:12   suggest that if you in the winter if you

00:18:15   have your phone an event clip turn the

00:18:17   vent behind the phone off so heat isn't

00:18:19   constantly belong in the back of your

00:18:20   phones that's terrible and the summer

00:18:21   air conditioning blowing the back that's

00:18:23   probably great because it gets pretty

00:18:24   heat hot in the car with the Sun beating

00:18:26   down on your phone so that'll probably

00:18:28   even out but if you have no dial because

00:18:30   your car as a weird super modern thing

00:18:34   where there's no way to control the air

00:18:36   vents except for a tiny dot in the

00:18:38   middle of a giant field that you drag

00:18:41   around as a vague way to suggest in the

00:18:43   car where there might come out yeah that

00:18:45   sounds pretty cool to be honest I

00:18:47   haven't seen it yet but it sounds pretty

00:18:48   cool

00:18:48   yours doesn't have that I thought that

00:18:49   was on although it's only the mile three

00:18:51   which I haven't seen in real life yet

00:18:53   but I was like if you just want to turn

00:18:55   off the vent that your phone is attached

00:18:56   true though I'm not sure how you can do

00:18:57   that by dragging a puck around a little

00:18:59   ice hockey rink

00:18:59   I actually no I don't think I can turn

00:19:02   off event like they have a little like

00:19:04   slider things you can redirect it but

00:19:06   there's no I don't think I can turn that

00:19:07   vent off I don't have the little dial no

00:19:09   but but this isn't a problem in reality

00:19:11   because automatic climate control never

00:19:14   has the heat blowing out of the center

00:19:16   vents it's always blown in the feet vent

00:19:18   the defroster vent or both but it's

00:19:21   never blowing out the front vents that's

00:19:22   not how you're supposed to heat a car

00:19:23   why wouldn't you want out of the front

00:19:25   vents because you don't need heat

00:19:27   blowing in your face you look at your

00:19:29   feet sometimes my face is cold I'll tell

00:19:32   you where I want the air I I would not

00:19:35   consider this a big problem in reality

00:19:37   for almost anybody because the way

00:19:39   you're supposed to be climate managing

00:19:41   your car you shouldn't really be blowing

00:19:43   a lot of hot air through the front fence

00:19:44   anyway and also if you're using your

00:19:47   phone in a doc and running like waged

00:19:48   something it's already running so hot

00:19:50   that you know it actually might improve

00:19:52   the heat efficiency of your car to be

00:19:53   blowing it across your phone on the way

00:19:54   to your face okay because because the

00:19:56   phone is you know 150 degrees but the

00:19:58   air coming out of the vent 275 so it's

00:20:00   actually cool

00:20:01   exactly all right with regard to my

00:20:05   beloved blue towel speaking of car

00:20:07   related things indeed five rights at the

00:20:10   surgical rag that I use is called a huck

00:20:12   h uck it's a sterile towel used to dry

00:20:15   hands after a surgical scrub before

00:20:17   operating and apparently he has a

00:20:19   million of them and then Eugene fries in

00:20:21   writes in that they're actually

00:20:22   available on Amazon so I'll put a link

00:20:24   in the show notes I was not aware of

00:20:25   this which is super good news because I

00:20:26   kind of need some we also got some

00:20:28   feedback about whether or not it's

00:20:30   plastic ventilating onto the interior of

00:20:33   your windshield John do you have any

00:20:35   thoughts on that or do you not care yeah

00:20:37   no it's true I'm guessing from them you

00:20:39   know that new car smell and various

00:20:41   other things that you smell in cars of

00:20:42   outgassing from carpets and from plastic

00:20:44   and a lot of that crap gets all over

00:20:45   your windshield and makes it gross fun

00:20:48   finally our almost finally actually car

00:20:50   subscriptions Zach a friend of mine

00:20:53   asked why not have like a lyft

00:20:55   subscription you know like insurance the

00:20:58   light users would subsidize the heavy

00:20:59   ones that sounded like a brilliant idea

00:21:01   and then fast-forward like three days

00:21:04   after I heard this feedback from my

00:21:05   buddy Zach and I somehow saw an article

00:21:08   or a headline or something like that

00:21:09   about how lyft actually is or will soon

00:21:12   be offering subscriptions which I didn't

00:21:14   know was the thing this is the kind of

00:21:16   thing that like it's it's nice in a lot

00:21:19   of situations and it might even it might

00:21:21   even prove to be nice in the majority of

00:21:22   situations for some people but the the

00:21:25   great flexibility of having your own car

00:21:27   parked in your driveway or in your

00:21:29   garage or nearer in front of your place

00:21:31   is that it's always there ready for you

00:21:34   it's it's dedicated capacity just for

00:21:37   you if you're relying on not public

00:21:40   transit but if you're lying on like

00:21:41   services like lyft or uber or other like

00:21:43   kind of car share services there's only

00:21:45   a certain number of cars out there in a

00:21:47   given time and they're only in a certain

00:21:49   number of places and they're there a lot

00:21:50   you know less densely available once you

00:21:53   get out of the major cities when you

00:21:55   have your own car it's always there

00:21:56   ready for you no matter when you want to

00:21:58   use it with zero weight or close enough

00:22:00   to zero weight when you're relying on

00:22:02   something like this it might work nine

00:22:04   times out of ten but then the tenth time

00:22:06   you go to use it oh there aren't any for

00:22:08   the next 45 minutes or it's a spike

00:22:11   because of demand or the nearest one is

00:22:14   no too far away and doesn't want to take

00:22:16   your ride or you keep getting the same

00:22:18   one over and over again that's some

00:22:20   driver that's terrible that you don't

00:22:21   want that you know their car smells like

00:22:22   smoke and cats and stuff and it's like

00:22:24   when it's yours when it's your car it is

00:22:27   always there ready to go and so

00:22:30   depending on how important that car and

00:22:32   the mobility are to you anything for

00:22:35   most people in most of America it's very

00:22:37   important because the public

00:22:39   infrastructure just isn't there for most

00:22:40   of us having that car be dedicated to

00:22:43   you having your own that's always ready

00:22:44   to go that's always right there that's

00:22:46   always yours and you can put your stuff

00:22:48   in it and you can you can know that's

00:22:50   always gonna be there and be ready

00:22:51   that's gonna have a pretty big advantage

00:22:53   for a lot of people so I don't see

00:22:55   service it I don't see personal car

00:22:59   ownership of some form going away like

00:23:02   lyft and uber that's not that that's

00:23:03   something else the subscription is just

00:23:05   another way to have cars that are yours

00:23:07   so that I think makes some sense maybe

00:23:09   in the future but it's never going to be

00:23:11   totally replaced in America unless our

00:23:13   density radically changes which I don't

00:23:16   see happening this is a psychological

00:23:18   pricing ploy like for for city dwellers

00:23:21   who are never gonna own the car because

00:23:22   they can't afford a parking spot for it

00:23:23   or whatever you use lift all the time

00:23:25   anyway you can convince enough of them

00:23:28   to subscribe essentially paying more

00:23:30   like like Zak said most people will say

00:23:32   oh it's just easier to pay a

00:23:33   subscription and not have to worry about

00:23:35   the hassle of you know paying each time

00:23:37   and everything and maybe that'll make me

00:23:38   feel like oh I'll use it more I have a

00:23:40   subscription I'll use it more right

00:23:41   and maybe they won't use it more you

00:23:43   know and so this will end up making more

00:23:46   money from the people who thought they

00:23:48   were gonna really totally use that

00:23:49   description all the time but actually

00:23:50   take the same number of rides as they

00:23:51   always did it ends up being a bad deal

00:23:53   for them but the few heavy users get a

00:23:56   really good deal because now they can

00:23:57   just ride as much as they want for a

00:23:58   flat fee so lyft will figure out the

00:24:00   economics of it I'm sure and try to but

00:24:02   that it's the type of pricing psychology

00:24:04   that can make everybody involved feel

00:24:08   like they're getting a good deal even

00:24:09   though obviously you know they're not

00:24:11   right so lyft would be happy if they

00:24:13   make more money and the users would be

00:24:15   happy if they perceive the the

00:24:20   subscription as a good value regardless

00:24:22   whether it's actually a good value

00:24:24   finally somebody and I don't have the

00:24:26   scene out in front of me somebody was

00:24:28   very grumpy about the fact that we

00:24:29   called San Jose not very big and John

00:24:32   did you put this in here would you like

00:24:33   to happen that happened last year too

00:24:35   and we were talking about San Jose we

00:24:37   got so much feedback about I forget we

00:24:38   ever even did fall about it but we

00:24:40   should and because I've totally forgot

00:24:42   about the fallout from last year already

00:24:43   we're like Oh San Jose like nobody's

00:24:45   there it's empty it's not like Samer so

00:24:47   it's not a big city like San Francisco

00:24:48   and any time we said anything like that

00:24:49   someone from San Jose or near San Jose

00:24:52   right st. to tell us mean well you know

00:24:53   San Jose is bigger than ther an cisco

00:24:56   has a bigger population in San Francisco

00:24:58   you know all the things about how San

00:25:00   Jose it's just massive compared to

00:25:01   everything that we be you know we're

00:25:04   saying it's small but it's not right and

00:25:06   to that I would say Texas has more

00:25:08   people than San Jose but if I drop a pin

00:25:11   anywhere in Texas chances are good I'm

00:25:13   gonna look around not see that much all

00:25:14   about density San Jose is bigger San

00:25:18   Jose has more people but practically

00:25:21   speaking if you are a person you could

00:25:23   drop down and WWC and you look around

00:25:24   you'd be like where all the people as a

00:25:27   tumble beat tumbleweed goes by right

00:25:28   like it is very different experience

00:25:31   from the vastly higher density of where

00:25:34   Moscone is San Francisco so that's what

00:25:36   we meant we know it's a big city we know

00:25:38   there's lots of people somewhere also I

00:25:41   was interested

00:25:41   not a single person refuted my Truman

00:25:44   Show theory about everybody who works

00:25:46   there but they're just writing your name

00:25:49   down a little book of a little you know

00:25:51   picture of you says do not serve this

00:25:53   person or serve this person even more

00:25:55   slowly than usual I'm not sure I'd be

00:25:57   able to tell the difference like oh here

00:25:59   we go you wanted to order something I

00:26:02   don't know if I can do that I'll just

00:26:03   check with my boss to see if you can

00:26:04   order something well I'm gonna laugh

00:26:06   when you get says so PO or whatever it's

00:26:08   called and and they are like oh wait

00:26:11   you're Marco yeah we're not serving you

00:26:12   what would you do you would have nowhere

00:26:14   to go you would have you would have no

00:26:16   court to rule over I'd go to the beer

00:26:18   and sausage place up the street

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00:28:13   thank you so much - hello fresh for

00:28:15   sponsoring our show all right it's time

00:28:21   I'm gonna go to sleep now guys there's

00:28:25   been some Mac Pro news I love that

00:28:27   you're bringing this up you're just you

00:28:30   could have just moved on you should

00:28:31   summarize the Mac Pro news that's what

00:28:33   you should do yeah chief summarizer in

00:28:34   chief I'm going to attempt to so friend

00:28:36   of the show and said with no sarcasm

00:28:38   friend of the show Matthew piensa Reno

00:28:40   was invited by himself which is actually

00:28:43   kind of interesting in and of itself I

00:28:44   don't know if we need to unpack that

00:28:46   right now or not but Matt Pan's Reno was

00:28:47   invited to Apple and was put in front of

00:28:51   several different both executives and

00:28:53   engineers and

00:28:55   to talk about hey what's going on with

00:28:57   Mac Pro and my summary which I'm sure

00:29:00   both of you will take issue with and

00:29:01   that's fine but my summary is Apple

00:29:04   wanted to give a little more insight

00:29:08   into what's going on with the Mac Pro

00:29:10   you could we can and surely we'll

00:29:12   pontificate about why that is but one

00:29:16   can assume and I think I actually said

00:29:17   that hey we don't want you to make

00:29:19   purchasing decisions on the hope that

00:29:21   the Mac Pro is coming out later this

00:29:22   year so they made it plain that it will

00:29:25   not be out until 2019

00:29:26   they said 2019 but we don't know when in

00:29:31   they said that and this was what I found

00:29:34   most interesting they've created a

00:29:37   workflow group as I believe what they

00:29:38   called it and what that basically means

00:29:40   is they have contracted and/or hired

00:29:42   creative professionals to sit literally

00:29:46   next to the people who work on say Final

00:29:50   Cut Pro and work on the Mac Pro as well

00:29:52   in order to better understand what their

00:29:55   workflows are and they cited an example

00:29:56   and I think it was Final Cut Pro it

00:29:58   doesn't really matter but they said in

00:29:59   an example of oh these creative

00:30:01   professionals there's they open this one

00:30:03   dialogue and Final Cut Pro all the time

00:30:06   and it takes like 10 seconds to open

00:30:08   this dialogue and nobody at Apple

00:30:10   somehow knew this and so because they're

00:30:13   now sitting next to each other you know

00:30:15   the the creative professionals walk down

00:30:16   the hall and said hey guys can we do

00:30:18   something about this dialogue because

00:30:19   this sucks

00:30:20   and sure enough it turned out there was

00:30:22   like an error in some driver somewhere

00:30:24   or something like that and they were

00:30:25   able to fix it so the point of all this

00:30:27   is Apple is trying to engage with the

00:30:31   broader professional community people

00:30:32   like us in say hey you know you need to

00:30:36   buy an iMac Pro go buy an iMac Pro we

00:30:39   don't wait for the Mac Pro because

00:30:40   you're not getting it for a while

00:30:41   additionally they're they're engaging

00:30:42   with with the broader professional

00:30:44   community in the sense that they've

00:30:45   asked some of these people to come in

00:30:47   house and help them understand what

00:30:49   their workflows are which III think you

00:30:52   can argue both that that's great and

00:30:54   that's terrible and I'm sure we're about

00:30:56   to do exactly that

00:30:57   but one way or another it is it is more

00:31:00   insight than we've had into the Mac Pro

00:31:02   in a long long time and it shows us that

00:31:04   it's still a thing which is exciting it

00:31:07   tells us rough

00:31:08   FLE with an emphasis on roughly when

00:31:10   it's going to be released and they also

00:31:13   said that no no it's going to be modular

00:31:14   and I am happy to report John siracusa

00:31:18   that they are making it plain or perhaps

00:31:21   reiterating that they are making a

00:31:23   display for it still I know you're very

00:31:28   excited and I am happy that you're happy

00:31:30   that is I think my summary and as much

00:31:33   as I'm snarking about this this is

00:31:35   actually pretty fascinating even for me

00:31:37   I don't see a MacPro in my future but

00:31:40   this is really really really interesting

00:31:41   and a very different approach than

00:31:43   apples taken in the past and whether or

00:31:46   not I view a Mac Pro is something I need

00:31:48   to buy and honestly I don't think it's

00:31:50   something that any of us need to buy but

00:31:52   we can argue about that another time I

00:31:54   said too that this approach I still

00:31:57   think that this approach is really

00:31:58   fascinating so with that in mind I will

00:32:00   open the floor perhaps we can start with

00:32:02   Marco what are your thoughts I mean to

00:32:05   me like you know this is this has been

00:32:08   positioned and summarized by many

00:32:09   including she's summarized here in chief

00:32:11   in part as a Mac Pro you know round

00:32:15   table successor from last year but

00:32:18   there's really no new information here

00:32:20   about the Mac Pro the only thing that we

00:32:22   know about the Mac Pro we didn't know

00:32:24   before is that it's definitely not

00:32:26   coming out this year that's the only

00:32:28   thing that's new here what this was

00:32:31   really about I think is you know setting

00:32:35   expectations for that or to be able to

00:32:37   seat it to come and go and for the rest

00:32:39   of the year to come and go without Pro

00:32:41   is saying hey where the heck's the Mac

00:32:42   Pro you know that that's really what I

00:32:44   think this was about on that side and

00:32:46   then to kind of paper over that or to

00:32:50   offset that with something that's

00:32:52   positive by showing off that they have

00:32:55   this new you know kind of like in-house

00:32:57   study of pro users in you know in their

00:33:01   natural environment and geometrically

00:33:04   speaking this announcement was an

00:33:06   open-faced shit sandwich that fell face

00:33:08   down on the floor

00:33:09   [Laughter]

00:33:14   we're news bad news good news you just

00:33:16   get the bad news and then you get the

00:33:18   good news so the bad news is no MacPro

00:33:21   this year and the good news is I look at

00:33:23   the pro workflow team isn't that cool

00:33:25   and you know honestly I mean this is you

00:33:27   know heavy on the PR puff obviously and

00:33:31   you know not from Pantera but from Apple

00:33:33   and there's not a lot of new information

00:33:37   really here but it is interesting that

00:33:40   this Pro you know group thing was

00:33:42   created there and and is is you know

00:33:45   being observed and being worked with

00:33:46   that is that is the more interesting

00:33:48   part of this announcement by far the

00:33:50   actual like again there's no information

00:33:52   with the Mac Pro we don't know anything

00:33:53   at the Mac Pro except it's not come in

00:33:55   this year I can speculate on why you

00:33:58   know we all can many of us have honestly

00:34:01   I don't think it's that interesting yet

00:34:03   because again we have no new information

00:34:05   except that you know that big hole in

00:34:08   the timeline of it's gonna be next year

00:34:10   which I'm glad they said it's going to

00:34:12   be 2019 as opposed to it's not going to

00:34:15   be this year you said that it could be

00:34:16   2025 or Never

00:34:18   so at least they committed to a year you

00:34:21   can also speculate as many people have

00:34:23   why is it taking Apple so long to

00:34:25   develop what should probably just be a

00:34:27   fairly straightforward like tower or

00:34:29   something tower like the answer to that

00:34:32   that's most likely is that last year

00:34:35   like about a year ago when they had that

00:34:37   roundtable I think it is very likely

00:34:39   that they literally had not even started

00:34:41   yet that it was like it was decided

00:34:43   within a very short time before that

00:34:46   that they that they were going to do

00:34:47   this and that means that from 2013 until

00:34:54   they were probably not doing any work at

00:34:57   all on a Mac Pro they were probably

00:34:58   assuming the iMac Pro was it and they

00:35:00   were only working on the iMac Pro so

00:35:03   it's not that they couldn't do a new

00:35:05   tower in you know five years or whatever

00:35:08   since the last Mac Pro it's that they

00:35:10   can't do it a new tower in a year and a

00:35:12   half that's I think what we're really

00:35:13   seeing here the even that is slightly

00:35:16   concerning because even that's like you

00:35:18   know what pros want is new hardware in

00:35:21   some kind of expandable box we don't

00:35:24   need

00:35:25   fancy designs we don't need you know a

00:35:27   lot of different types of quote

00:35:28   innovation we just need new guts in a

00:35:32   box and for Apple to be you know kind of

00:35:36   taking their sweet time and trying to

00:35:38   work on probably something that's like

00:35:39   really you know highly designed highly

00:35:41   custom that's nice I'm sure that

00:35:43   satisfies Apple but that's not really

00:35:46   what pros are asking for for this

00:35:47   product but I don't think we can talk

00:35:50   Apple out of that kind of design anymore

00:35:52   I think that's kind of just what they do

00:35:53   and from that point of view the the time

00:35:57   scale seems reasonable that they just

00:35:59   started last year and they're not just

00:36:01   doing something basic even though many

00:36:03   of us want them to do exactly that for

00:36:04   this product because they can save the

00:36:06   innovation for all of the rest of their

00:36:09   products including the iMac Pro which is

00:36:11   fairly innovative in a few ways and it's

00:36:13   really nice I really like the iMac Pro

00:36:15   but anyway they're they're not doing

00:36:17   that so oh well I do think it's

00:36:19   interesting also to think now maybe one

00:36:22   of the reasons they're taking a little

00:36:24   bit of time on this is you know what I

00:36:27   expected was the iMac Pro guts in a box

00:36:30   with a couple of GPU slots and maybe it

00:36:33   may be you know space for a few m to

00:36:36   drive modules I don't think that's what

00:36:39   they're doing and and when the iMac Pro

00:36:42   came out and and when we saw how awesome

00:36:45   it was and how few downsides it had and

00:36:47   had few restrictions it had one of the

00:36:49   things that that we said at the time was

00:36:52   what the heck is left for the Mac Pro to

00:36:54   address like how much Headroom above

00:36:57   this can the Mac Pro really achieve you

00:37:00   know are they gonna go dual processor

00:37:01   maybe have many graphics cards you know

00:37:04   support it or different types of slots

00:37:05   or whatever who knows what right we were

00:37:07   trying to figure out like what else what

00:37:09   is left for the Mac Pro to do that the

00:37:11   iMac Pro doesn't do so maybe in order to

00:37:13   create more Headroom in that area maybe

00:37:17   I took a bit of you know special

00:37:19   engineering maybe they're doing

00:37:20   something they haven't done before like

00:37:21   for instance if they if they're working

00:37:23   from the road map of the old Mac Pro of

00:37:26   the 2013 Mac Pro that one had this rigid

00:37:29   GPU arrangement that only supported

00:37:31   these two GPUs and this one kind of

00:37:32   weird arrangement with this kind of

00:37:34   weird integration with the Thunderbolt

00:37:35   bus and it only supported one CPU and

00:37:38   you know the whatever it is four or six

00:37:40   RAM slots and and one SSD module maybe

00:37:44   they're doing dual socket CPUs and that

00:37:47   dramatically complicates things and and

00:37:49   how you have to you know layout the

00:37:51   internals how you have to cool things

00:37:53   maybe they're doing a box that can

00:37:55   accommodate lots of different

00:37:57   configurations like the old towers could

00:37:59   so maybe you could have one or two CPUs

00:38:01   one or four GPU is like you know they

00:38:04   did all sorts of crazy things back with

00:38:05   the old cheese graters and stuff the

00:38:08   difference now is that the cheese

00:38:10   graders were all before Thunderbolt

00:38:11   there was a lot less internal PCI

00:38:15   Express bandwidth and things like that

00:38:17   that had to be allocated to external

00:38:19   storage and GPUs were lower bandwidth

00:38:22   and everything was lower bandwidth back

00:38:23   then and so to design something now you

00:38:27   have to really consider like how you

00:38:28   balance like PCI Express allocations and

00:38:31   lanes and speeds between internal and

00:38:33   external stuff how you route video

00:38:35   signals over the thunderbolt and and how

00:38:37   you like do you route the output to the

00:38:38   GPU to a thunderbolt port on on the back

00:38:41   like how do you do that it's fairly

00:38:43   complicated to design a really good mac

00:38:47   pro tower with modern features and

00:38:51   modern bandwidth and everything else

00:38:53   that's also that also has like

00:38:55   interchangeable slots like that's a hard

00:38:57   thing so if they're doing something like

00:38:58   that taking two years to do it seems

00:39:01   reasonable I don't know what else what

00:39:03   they're doing but I hope so so like the

00:39:05   the people were saying wanted there just

00:39:06   to give us a box and slap things

00:39:08   together like I think there's a minimum

00:39:10   there's a minimum bar of not even

00:39:13   innovation but just quality or attention

00:39:16   to detail or thoughtfulness that we

00:39:18   expect from a lot of people a lot of

00:39:19   people look at the cheese graters and

00:39:21   say oh it's just a tower case yeah it's

00:39:22   an it's a nice looking tower case but

00:39:24   whatever is just a tower like it's not

00:39:25   it has a door but it's just got a bunch

00:39:27   of slots and a motherboard and RAM it's

00:39:29   like cool it's not much different this

00:39:30   from pcs our eyes evidence piled the PC

00:39:32   Tower clones that came after it but I

00:39:34   think that the very first one the Power

00:39:37   Mac g5 I think that probably took them

00:39:42   longer to design that plain and boring

00:39:45   tower case and everything that goes into

00:39:47   it then they're spending there they're

00:39:49   gonna end up spending on this macro but

00:39:50   I Pro like

00:39:52   it's not because they're insisting on

00:39:55   doing something really weird like the

00:39:57   trashcan right because the the Power Mac

00:40:00   g5 was not really weird it was a tower

00:40:01   like straightforward like there wasn't

00:40:03   it wasn't it wasn't weird at all but if

00:40:07   you look at it it's like well it's very

00:40:08   carefully designed they you know the

00:40:11   case is has very you know simple design

00:40:16   with a big curved piece of aluminum

00:40:18   wrapped around a minimum number of seams

00:40:21   the door giving you access to the

00:40:24   insides you know the way the door fits

00:40:26   in and that whole mechanism how they

00:40:28   route all the ribbon cables so they're

00:40:30   not that you know to make it look nice

00:40:32   on the inside so the ribbon cables are

00:40:33   all tucked behind the motherboard and

00:40:35   they're just the right length and stuff

00:40:36   like that

00:40:37   the way the motherboard is laid out I

00:40:38   mean all the various custom chips that

00:40:41   might go into it that aren't in any

00:40:42   other Mac it's not rocket science and

00:40:45   it's not like the thing that people are

00:40:47   afraid of like oh there it's gonna be

00:40:48   shaped like a squid and it's gonna have

00:40:50   you know Thunderbolt 3 connecting

00:40:52   everything and like all sorts of just

00:40:55   make me a box say Apple is doing that

00:40:57   we're just making you a box it is

00:40:58   literally a tower it is the air comes in

00:41:01   the front and out the back it is totally

00:41:03   straightforward but doing that the Apple

00:41:05   Way takes longer than people think and I

00:41:10   kind of want them to do it the Apple way

00:41:13   like if you're in a super big hurry I

00:41:14   can understand like you're like we need

00:41:15   towers yesterday we can't use the iMac

00:41:18   Pro for whatever reasons just you know

00:41:21   slap it together like they like people

00:41:23   who would be happy with the hackintosh

00:41:24   right I don't I don't care what it looks

00:41:26   like how nice it is I don't care how

00:41:28   nice the seams are or whatever just slap

00:41:30   it together but I don't think Apple is

00:41:33   really capable of doing that like even

00:41:35   even its products that we you know it's

00:41:37   quote-unquote worst products like the

00:41:39   products that we complain about like are

00:41:40   you still selling the MacBook Air or

00:41:41   whatever MacBook Air is still nice like

00:41:43   industrial design why is the screen is

00:41:45   gross but like everything else about it

00:41:47   you know it looks expensive and

00:41:50   carefully designed like it's not falling

00:41:52   apart and has weird seams and things

00:41:54   poking out of it and doesn't look

00:41:56   slapped together it looks old but it

00:41:58   doesn't look slap together Apple

00:42:00   generally just is not you know

00:42:02   institutionally capable of making

00:42:05   hardware that looks like it's been

00:42:07   slapped together like on a speedy

00:42:09   schedule like we didn't have time to

00:42:10   actually design this we just use a bunch

00:42:12   of stock parts and we screw them

00:42:13   together like the way the bed wrap of

00:42:15   you know American cars or any car maker

00:42:17   that use like a parts bin dashboard

00:42:19   where we have a bunch of things that we

00:42:22   use in all our cars like the window

00:42:23   switches or whatever and we're not going

00:42:24   to design custom onto this car because

00:42:26   it's too much trouble so just slapping

00:42:27   the same switches that we use on all

00:42:28   other cars very American car markets

00:42:30   used to do stuff like us all the time

00:42:31   these days there's more custom parts in

00:42:34   cars than you would expect but that type

00:42:36   of thing it's just not how Apple does

00:42:39   things they're not aside from trying to

00:42:41   share the same stupid keyboard and all

00:42:43   their laptops they like I don't think

00:42:45   this this thing is gonna you know if

00:42:48   it's as it could be as boring as bread

00:42:51   and butter and it's still gonna take

00:42:52   them two years to make it that's just

00:42:54   how long the stuff takes and like you

00:42:56   were saying marker with like you were

00:42:57   thinking that it would just be the iMac

00:42:59   Pro internals I still think that III

00:43:02   thought that from the beginning that

00:43:03   look don't get your hopes up for the

00:43:06   insides of this Mac Pro to be anything

00:43:07   other thing than the insides of that in

00:43:09   terms of specs like obviously things

00:43:10   will be rearranged and there'd be a new

00:43:11   board and and you know different slots

00:43:14   and stuff like that but fully expected

00:43:16   to have a t2 and to have the same class

00:43:18   of Xeon and so on and so forth

00:43:19   now with a delay I still more or less

00:43:23   expect it to be rearranged iMac pro

00:43:26   internals like I don't expect it to have

00:43:27   a t3 chip I expected that of a t2 chip

00:43:30   right because they don't have time to

00:43:31   make a whole other one of those in this

00:43:33   in this timeline right unless they were

00:43:35   already making it for the iMac processor

00:43:37   which I think they are not right so I

00:43:38   expect iMac pro internals maybe with

00:43:42   with the newer Xeon if it's a drop-in

00:43:43   replacement right more slots for

00:43:46   everything more RAM slots more storage

00:43:48   spots possibly more room for internal

00:43:53   storage right just like capacity you

00:43:56   know start from the design sort of the

00:43:58   design brief of this thing should be

00:43:59   like more thermal capacity than an iMac

00:44:02   Pro and every other feature flows from

00:44:04   that because if you don't do more

00:44:05   thermal capacity than an iMac Pro then

00:44:07   the only thing you're the only benefit

00:44:09   you're getting is well as the screen

00:44:10   breaks you don't lose your whole

00:44:11   computer right so I feel like this thing

00:44:13   is going to have higher thermal ceiling

00:44:15   than the iMac

00:44:16   and then you can do lots of stuff with a

00:44:18   thermal sailing and it's then then it

00:44:20   becomes a question of talking to these

00:44:21   pro people like a writer like what do

00:44:23   you want do you want two CPUs would you

00:44:25   rather have more PCI Express let's do we

00:44:27   have to offer you're both if we just

00:44:29   made all them have one CD would that be

00:44:30   okay

00:44:31   how much internal storage you want

00:44:32   versus external like but it's all like

00:44:34   how you spend your thermal budget but

00:44:37   the budget has to be way higher than the

00:44:39   iMac Pro and all anybody capacity how

00:44:42   much storage can you put in how much RAM

00:44:44   can you put in it right and then of

00:44:46   course how much heat can it dissipate

00:44:47   how many GPUs can you put it how big can

00:44:50   the GPUs be and then finally like use on

00:44:53   the iMac Pro one of the reasons you like

00:44:54   it is because it doesn't sound like a

00:44:56   hairdryer all the time and this to make

00:44:59   a big tower computer that has high

00:45:02   thermal capacity but it's also

00:45:04   reasonably quiet is tricky like I think

00:45:08   about all the pcs I see and sometimes

00:45:10   lust after that have these you know

00:45:12   nicely designed pcs that have big

00:45:15   cooling capacity and try to be quiet

00:45:17   that doesn't happen if you just take a

00:45:19   box and slap a bunch of fans in it like

00:45:21   you have to be thoughtful in some ways

00:45:23   to make sure you don't have any weird

00:45:25   hotspots because you didn't think about

00:45:26   this component over there like I know

00:45:29   people bill Caesar like just get a

00:45:30   really big diameter fan and put a whole

00:45:31   bunch of them in there and it's like

00:45:32   straightforward you just put pieces

00:45:33   together but and assembling a PC like

00:45:37   that unless you have lots of experience

00:45:38   and know exactly how everything's gonna

00:45:39   work with a bunch of custom parts can

00:45:42   lead to weird things where the heat

00:45:45   gradients that you didn't expect there

00:45:47   or a particular component that is not

00:45:48   getting adequate cooling because there's

00:45:50   just no way to route air to there and

00:45:51   you it's just it's hacky and it's not

00:45:53   it's not up the apples quality so I

00:45:56   think that even if Apple is making the

00:46:00   most boring box we could possibly think

00:46:02   of that they have to they are going to

00:46:06   do a better job then then I think some

00:46:09   people would want those to those

00:46:10   hackintosh type customers and as far as

00:46:11   I'm concerned as someone who doesn't

00:46:13   need this thing right now although you

00:46:15   may disagree when you think to how old

00:46:17   my Mac is but I'd rather like spend the

00:46:19   time spend the time to make even if it's

00:46:21   a boring tower spend the time to make a

00:46:22   boring tower that's as nice as a cheese

00:46:24   grater spend the time to make it look

00:46:25   nice it's been in time to make sure that

00:46:28   is super reliable

00:46:30   that it's quiet figure out a way to make

00:46:31   it quiet and yes spend the time talking

00:46:33   to people the various prose and saying

00:46:35   what do you what do you want out of this

00:46:37   machine like do we have to make two

00:46:39   slots or CPUs or is that something that

00:46:40   nobody wants and we don't have to do

00:46:41   that

00:46:42   because I don't think they're gonna have

00:46:44   17 different configurable versions of

00:46:45   this right and I also don't think

00:46:48   they're going to make it some magic

00:46:51   modular snapped together a future

00:46:53   technology Thunderbolt 3 powered octopus

00:46:55   thing I know lots of people think that

00:46:57   you know 2019 this is gonna be some

00:46:59   crazy trashcan but I don't I don't think

00:47:01   that I think it's gonna be a fairly

00:47:02   straightforward machine I just want to

00:47:03   be nice I just um

00:47:05   I I'm struggling because I I do see both

00:47:08   sides of this like on the one side just

00:47:10   like you guys had said you know why not

00:47:12   just make take the old cheese grater

00:47:14   you know form-factor slap new bits in it

00:47:17   and call it a day

00:47:18   but there's been a lot of changes to the

00:47:22   Mac in the last couple of years you know

00:47:23   what used to be for the purposes of this

00:47:26   conversation when it used to be just

00:47:28   vanilla intel motherboards with vanilla

00:47:29   intel chips on them now or not quite so

00:47:32   simple we have the you know the tea to

00:47:34   that that one of you guys mentioned

00:47:35   earlier we have all these different you

00:47:37   know coprocessors we have a touch bar

00:47:39   that we have never seen be external to

00:47:41   the device we have a secure Enclave

00:47:43   there's so many different things that

00:47:45   make this so much more complex than

00:47:46   before and when when you also add

00:47:50   modularity into this because there's

00:47:53   basically no Apple computers sold today

00:47:57   that is as modular as we are expecting

00:48:00   and being told that this will be and I

00:48:02   can't imagine it's easy to keep up with

00:48:06   these extremely stringent security

00:48:07   requirements while also doing this mod

00:48:12   you know this modular thing so as an

00:48:14   example like this phantom Apple display

00:48:15   this new cinema display if you will

00:48:17   presumably that's going to have a camera

00:48:20   in an iSight camera in it or FaceTime

00:48:22   camera or whatever they're calling it

00:48:23   now presumably they're going to want

00:48:25   that to be controlled by you know the t2

00:48:27   or whatever it is it controls in these

00:48:29   days how do you do that when it's not

00:48:32   part of the device itself how does that

00:48:34   work so yeah I mean you could just say

00:48:37   yes screw it if somebody can hack your

00:48:40   camera well tough nuggies you made this

00:48:42   bed yourself if that's not apples

00:48:43   so I understand all the angst about Oh

00:48:46   we'll just you know use a cheese grater

00:48:47   put some new bits in it walk away and I

00:48:50   could make a pretty good argument that

00:48:52   they should do that and then do the real

00:48:53   Mac Pro afterwards but just like you

00:48:56   said John like that's not Apple's way

00:48:58   apples ways to make this interesting and

00:49:00   innovative and and smart and I think and

00:49:03   I hope that's what they're doing oh nice

00:49:05   I like it doesn't have to be innovative

00:49:07   because it's like as the cheese grater

00:49:08   is it innovative like what's innovative

00:49:10   about the cheese grater the only things

00:49:11   innovative about it is how nice it is

00:49:12   like it's not it was just it's just a

00:49:15   tower case like the there was the CPUs

00:49:17   weren't arranged in an octagon it wasn't

00:49:19   cooled by like jellyfish like it was

00:49:22   just a tower case with fans and had hard

00:49:25   drives and RAM and slots and like it was

00:49:26   very straightforward but it's nice that

00:49:30   the trash can was innovative wow this

00:49:32   tube shape thing with a chimney design

00:49:34   and a little triangle motherboard and

00:49:35   two GPUs and like that that was an

00:49:38   innovative design and that's what people

00:49:40   are afraid is happening and I I mean I'm

00:49:42   assuming talking to the pros that pros

00:49:44   are not saying please make it you know

00:49:46   really weird like they they don't care

00:49:48   what it looks like they hoping that the

00:49:50   influence talking these people will

00:49:52   cause it to be more will push back

00:49:55   against any unconventional thinking that

00:49:57   Apple may bring to the table what what

00:49:59   if we gave you something like this I

00:50:00   hope the pros go that might work but I

00:50:03   know this will work so why don't you

00:50:04   just make me this and by the way this

00:50:05   article honest I'm mistaken does not say

00:50:08   that this pro workflow team was created

00:50:10   for this it just tells you about the pro

00:50:12   work for the team I have no idea how

00:50:13   long the pro workflow team has been an

00:50:15   apple maybe they'd been there for a

00:50:16   decade advising the Final Cut Pro team

00:50:17   and every Pro Mac that they've ever made

00:50:19   right this is just part of to soften the

00:50:22   blow of the of the macro not being this

00:50:24   year will tell you about a thing that

00:50:26   previously we had no reason to tell you

00:50:27   about because what do you care what we

00:50:29   do internally right but to make you feel

00:50:31   like we're really paying attention will

00:50:32   tell you about this which i think is

00:50:34   fine like if someone snarkily tweeted

00:50:36   congratulations Apple you've discovered

00:50:38   user acceptance testing which hasn't

00:50:42   discovered it like I said I think this

00:50:44   has always existed maybe it's been

00:50:45   ramped up maybe they've been given

00:50:47   closer access to machines instead of

00:50:48   just being giving weird you know

00:50:50   disguised boxes and saying what do you

00:50:51   think of this but this this is the type

00:50:55   of thing

00:50:56   then you would hope any company's doing

00:50:59   but that the sort of The Legend of Apple

00:51:02   the the face that they present to the

00:51:04   world doesn't include this like the The

00:51:08   Legend of Apple is we don't need to talk

00:51:11   to people to know what to make we don't

00:51:13   do focus groups we don't ask you what

00:51:15   you want because you don't know what you

00:51:16   want will tell you what you want we know

00:51:18   it's like we we just go off to the

00:51:21   mountain and we come down with a thing

00:51:22   and trust me you'll love it right and

00:51:24   that's how we got the touch bar yeah

00:51:26   maybe not I think maybe that's more of

00:51:28   the focus group thing or someone has an

00:51:30   idea and you tell people do you think

00:51:31   this is a good idea and everyone goes

00:51:32   yeah that sounds like it might be a good

00:51:33   idea but people are dummies like this

00:51:35   like it's a steve job the steve jobs

00:51:37   school of thought of like you know don't

00:51:40   ask people like we are smart enough on

00:51:42   our own to figure it out if we ask

00:51:43   people we'll make mediocre stuff because

00:51:45   that's that's true of any product focus

00:51:48   groups are death it's like the you know

00:51:49   the homework are from from the simpsons

00:51:51   right just everyone has ideas about what

00:51:53   they think they want but everyone is not

00:51:55   a product designer it's your job as a

00:51:56   product designer to you no synthesize

00:51:58   their desires and figure out what it is

00:52:00   that they really want so on and so forth

00:52:01   but the more company is perceived to be

00:52:05   allowing the customer to lead them the

00:52:08   more it is likely to make mediocre

00:52:11   products and to lose sight of true

00:52:14   innovation result innovators dilemma

00:52:15   things like you know just keep talking

00:52:17   to your best customers they'll

00:52:18   continually ask for like we do on the

00:52:20   show essentially it you just listen to

00:52:22   your mainframe customers they keep

00:52:23   telling you about how they want you to

00:52:24   make better and better mainframes and

00:52:25   you miss the PC revolution right because

00:52:26   you're like because you just like well

00:52:28   are all of our biggest customers say

00:52:30   they want this and they want that and

00:52:31   you will never make the PC if you keep

00:52:34   talking to your mainframe customers you

00:52:36   have to say well actually there's

00:52:37   another thing we should be doing and

00:52:38   those customers will never tell us to do

00:52:40   that there's a million business books

00:52:41   about this right but Apple we don't

00:52:43   perceive as saying we're not really sure

00:52:45   how to make a pro computer can we get

00:52:47   some pros and here to tell us what do

00:52:48   you like do you like this do you like

00:52:49   that like it's if strong position like a

00:52:51   weakness and we want them to just know

00:52:53   everything automatically and just make

00:52:54   beautiful things that everybody loved

00:52:56   reality of course is neither extreme is

00:52:58   true Steve Jobs is Apple still took

00:53:01   customer feedback and like that's always

00:53:02   been a part of the process and this

00:53:05   whole Pro work ball team I'm sure it

00:53:06   does have some influence but in the end

00:53:08   of Johnny Arizona

00:53:09   it's not going on there so I think you

00:53:14   know this is one of the reasons you

00:53:16   don't talk about your process because

00:53:18   once people out something company start

00:53:20   thinking about your process it it loses

00:53:23   some of the magic and you start worrying

00:53:26   about is that really the best process to

00:53:29   do this I'm not on that fair workflow

00:53:30   team what if they're not talking to me

00:53:32   in fact we got some feedback about that

00:53:33   from other people saying yeah they're

00:53:35   talking to pros in film and video and

00:53:38   whatever industries but they're not

00:53:39   talking to pros in my industry whatever

00:53:42   that may be you know academics R&D you

00:53:46   know scientific stuff I don't know I

00:53:51   figured what the calories outside of

00:53:53   what they have listed that are on the

00:53:56   pro work with and for all we know the

00:53:57   protein does include all those they

00:53:58   didn't tell us everything about them but

00:54:00   either way if you don't feel like your

00:54:02   views are being represented and you buy

00:54:05   into the idea that it's that small group

00:54:07   of people that's essentially dictating

00:54:09   what this machine will look like that

00:54:10   doesn't feel good either because now

00:54:12   when the machine comes out you could be

00:54:13   like oh great that business is a great

00:54:15   machine for video editors but for me

00:54:17   doing medical imaging it sucks they

00:54:19   should have had medical images in there

00:54:20   for a murkrow team that's you know

00:54:21   that's the difficulty of making any

00:54:24   product they are not gonna make an

00:54:25   entire line of Mac Pro's to suit

00:54:28   everybody's needs they're gonna make one

00:54:30   that suits most people's needs where

00:54:33   most is defined as people Apple things

00:54:35   will buy a Mac Pro and at that with the

00:54:37   asterisk we hope it will suit most

00:54:39   people's needs we hope yeah maybe

00:54:41   they'll be wrong about that maybe you

00:54:42   know that's again what the process like

00:54:45   wouldn't it be for all you know Apple if

00:54:48   you made this kind of computer a whole

00:54:49   new class of people would want to buy it

00:54:51   and ignore the pro video people because

00:54:53   your real market is you know like makers

00:54:56   but their 3d printers and they need to

00:54:57   do CAD on it I don't know like that's

00:54:59   kind of apples job to figure out but if

00:55:03   you start if your starting point is a

00:55:05   more or less conventional tower with a

00:55:07   separate monitor that's really nice and

00:55:09   that has the same capabilities and

00:55:11   performance profile as the iMac Pro but

00:55:13   with more capacity that's a pretty good

00:55:15   starting point for most people know they

00:55:16   can ask for things here and there but I

00:55:20   don't think that that Pro work

00:55:22   is going to do anything other than have

00:55:26   minor suggestions about a very

00:55:30   conventional design and best-case

00:55:33   scenario that team was able to dissuade

00:55:35   Apple very early on like last year

00:55:37   sometime to not make you know a weird

00:55:40   octopus thing right say yeah don't go

00:55:43   down that path like we have some

00:55:45   sketches I hope everyone involved would

00:55:47   say that might be good it might be bad

00:55:50   but it's an unknown and you already did

00:55:51   that with a trash can so let's just reel

00:55:53   this back in let's let's start with a

00:55:54   box I feel like - like there's there's

00:55:58   different levels at which this kind of

00:56:01   like user focus group or work group is

00:56:04   useful or needed it makes total sense to

00:56:07   have people who use say the pro apps

00:56:11   work with Apple on some level and have

00:56:14   Apple asked them like what they need and

00:56:16   watch what they need and and you know

00:56:18   we're we're closely with them to tailor

00:56:20   the pro apps to the needs of the people

00:56:22   who buy them but as you go kind of

00:56:25   further down I guess the stack of the

00:56:29   platforms the operating systems and then

00:56:32   eventually the hardware it gets less and

00:56:34   less specific the whole appeal of

00:56:37   personal computing is that these

00:56:39   machines are generalists they can be

00:56:42   used to do anything lots of different

00:56:45   tasks can be done on these machines and

00:56:47   so the the hardware and the platforms in

00:56:50   the OS have to be able to support

00:56:53   anything because you never know what

00:56:56   people are going to do you know you can

00:56:58   you can pick a few use cases and say

00:57:00   let's make sure you know that it works

00:57:01   well for these use cases because we've

00:57:03   heard that a lot of people use it for

00:57:04   that or something but you can never

00:57:06   accommodate everything via user testing

00:57:09   that people are going to want these

00:57:10   computers and operating systems to do so

00:57:13   as you go down like it yeah have the the

00:57:16   team that makes final cut work with

00:57:18   video editors that makes total sense

00:57:20   but even that is like kind of hard to

00:57:22   describe like I guarantee you no one on

00:57:25   the logic team has ever watched somebody

00:57:27   had on a podcast and logic and maybe

00:57:30   it's a pretty light use case I don't

00:57:32   know but I'm telling you it's never

00:57:33   happened but anyway the OS and the ha

00:57:36   we're have to be as versatile as

00:57:38   possible so this is why this is kind of

00:57:41   like a like I don't think this has a lot

00:57:43   to do with the Mac Pro like this this

00:57:45   user I think this is purely like a PR

00:57:47   thing to cover up they the information

00:57:50   they wanted to communicate was don't

00:57:52   expect a Mac Pro this year and as John

00:57:53   said you know they they gave you this

00:57:55   Pro workflows group thing as like

00:57:58   something good to stick on top of that

00:58:00   and that's nice but I don't think

00:58:02   they're that related and the design of

00:58:05   the of a Mac any Mac even you know a lot

00:58:08   of people have been arguing about like

00:58:09   the definition of Pro what counts as a

00:58:11   pro I think this is a totally useless

00:58:13   distinction it doesn't matter Pro is

00:58:15   marketing that's all it is it Pro just

00:58:17   means the bigger one of the more

00:58:18   expensive one any other any other

00:58:20   focusing of what this definition is is

00:58:22   is not productive all of the computers

00:58:24   in the lineup should be as versatile as

00:58:27   possible the OS and the platforms and

00:58:30   everything should be as versatile as

00:58:31   possible to accommodate any kind of work

00:58:33   any kind of workflow any kind of

00:58:35   workload the only reason that you

00:58:37   shouldn't be able to do something on a

00:58:39   MacBook Air that you can do on a Mac Pro

00:58:42   is if the MacBook Air doesn't have

00:58:45   hardware support for what you're doing

00:58:48   if it doesn't have enough RAM or if it's

00:58:50   just too damn slow or if it doesn't have

00:58:52   enough Thunderbolt bandwidth that should

00:58:54   be the only difference between these

00:58:55   products and when computers are properly

00:58:58   designed which they have been for

00:58:59   decades that is the only distinction if

00:59:01   for most types of applications unless

00:59:03   there's like a specific GPU requirement

00:59:05   something like you don't quote need a

00:59:08   MacBook Pro to edit video you couldn't

00:59:11   edit video in a MacBook Air it'll just

00:59:13   be slower and stuff like that like when

00:59:15   you buy or if you sell computers you try

00:59:17   to make these distinctions you try to

00:59:19   say oh well this you need to go to this

00:59:21   model if you need to do this or this way

00:59:23   if you're only doing this you should

00:59:24   only be using this cheapo crappy model

00:59:26   over here but these distinctions are all

00:59:29   just for sales and marketing and for the

00:59:30   most part the only thing that matters is

00:59:32   does it have the tech specs to do what

00:59:34   you need at all and then you can argue

00:59:36   about how fast to bring in user testing

00:59:40   groups like it like this to influence

00:59:43   hardware decisions I think is

00:59:45   questionable because for a long time

00:59:50   to the best of our knowledge these kinds

00:59:53   of people being brought in and for

00:59:54   Hardware decisions were not necessary or

00:59:57   weren't happening and we don't we still