The Accidental Tech Podcast

267: I Slowly Ate the Crystals


01:00:00   for you than usb3 like just I know it's

01:00:03   not quite the same thing but the USBC

01:00:05   cable that comes with all the MacBook

01:00:06   Pros is USB to cable yeah I just saw you

01:00:09   have to you have to make the the product

01:00:11   not not feel like you're getting

01:00:13   second-class and everything I feel like

01:00:16   that and this is a thing that Steve Jobs

01:00:17   used to do and my alt my impression from

01:00:19   the outside is that basically through

01:00:21   sheer force of will because it's what he

01:00:23   wanted is periodically it would update

01:00:25   the whole line and they would expunge

01:00:27   some lesser thing from the entire line

01:00:29   top to bottom even the cheapest one

01:00:31   wouldn't have things that Steve Jobs no

01:00:33   no longer likes he loved to refresh the

01:00:34   whole line and say it's all gone and in

01:00:36   Tim Cook era refreshing the whole line

01:00:39   pretty much never happens like you get

01:00:41   new things at the top but the middle and

01:00:43   bottom is just like it's all it's like

01:00:46   hand-me-downs and secondhand stuff and

01:00:48   just hanging out down there with

01:00:50   yesterday's technology you never get the

01:00:51   clean sweep there you go through it says

01:00:53   we have a whole new line of products

01:00:54   from super low price to super high price

01:00:56   and all of them we talked about this

01:00:58   world look like a family and are brought

01:00:59   up to some minimum standard right so

01:01:02   they're like 2nd gen touch ID should be

01:01:04   everywhere by now you should not have

01:01:06   first in tragedy it should be a relic of

01:01:08   the past but it's like can we save an

01:01:10   extra dollar 50 yes we can keep shipping

01:01:12   the old one no don't keep shipping the

01:01:14   old one like even even the lowest end

01:01:18   Apple product I feel like has to be

01:01:20   brought along with all the other tech

01:01:22   it's some minimum level I don't know I

01:01:26   the product annoys me a little bit I do

01:01:28   agree that it's great that it's there

01:01:30   it's much better than not having it at

01:01:31   all

01:01:31   but I'm not gonna like it Tim Cook has

01:01:36   no minimum standard that's really that's

01:01:37   like if you look at you know you said

01:01:39   like you know raise everything to

01:01:40   minimum standards like he has no minimum

01:01:42   he he will sell the oldest lowest end

01:01:46   parts forever

01:01:47   as long as they're still money to be

01:01:49   made there that's why like I think if

01:01:52   Apple was truly a premium company if

01:01:54   they if they really wanted that quality

01:01:56   and honestly and I don't say this often

01:01:58   if Steve was still there I do not think

01:02:01   they would be selling anything today

01:02:03   with a spinning disc or a non Retina

01:02:05   screen yeah as like as a product guys

01:02:08   Steve so much was it's like and IRA

01:02:11   tribute to him because he was head

01:02:13   the last second so many things is like

01:02:14   you once you have the new thing you

01:02:16   don't want anyone to have the old thing

01:02:18   anymore like you you want like obviously

01:02:20   price is a factor in you can't like

01:02:21   everyone read in overnight but like once

01:02:23   you see a Retina screen got can you look

01:02:24   at an on Retina screen anymore

01:02:25   and you know as soon as that's feasible

01:02:28   price-wise you want to put that in

01:02:29   everything same thing with second gen

01:02:31   touch ID you know first identity yeah

01:02:33   it's our fresh cut out but once we get

01:02:34   the second gen one and the price comes

01:02:36   down like once it gets close enough it's

01:02:37   time to refresh the whole line and

01:02:38   forget about first get in touch okay

01:02:40   you're never going to see that an Apple

01:02:41   product again everything is second gen

01:02:43   just because it was like you feel you

01:02:46   feel like you want everyone to have your

01:02:48   new thing and yet Tim does not seem to

01:02:51   have that instinct he feels no kind of

01:02:54   shame I must say embarrassment or it's

01:02:56   that shame or embarrassment it's too

01:02:57   much it's more like just when you make a

01:03:00   new thing you want everyone to see your

01:03:01   bet you want everyone to see the best

01:03:02   thing that you have to offer and again

01:03:04   obviously price comes into it everyone

01:03:05   can't get a p3 screen everyone can get

01:03:07   promotion right but there's a

01:03:08   trickle-down effect and a product person

01:03:10   would be like boy I can't wait until

01:03:12   it's financially feasible for me to

01:03:13   offer p3 displays on all our products

01:03:16   when is that gonna happen

01:03:17   give me a timeline five years from now

01:03:18   or whatever let's go for that because

01:03:20   that will be a milestone like that we

01:03:22   will have raised the bar on all of our

01:03:24   products and Tim Cook is like I don't

01:03:25   care if that ever happens keep shipping

01:03:27   the TN display on the MacBook Air with

01:03:29   giant pixels and terrible color

01:03:31   reproduction as long as people buy it

01:03:32   that's not I don't like that this is a

01:03:35   good time to bring up another point that

01:03:36   we had in the notes here which is that

01:03:38   Apple's still selling the iPad Mini 4

01:03:41   for $70 more than this new iPad it has

01:03:45   an 8 opposed to an a-10 and yep still

01:03:52   selling it no end in sight and also no

01:03:55   replacement in sight for that product

01:03:57   even though I think people would buy it

01:03:58   but it's good it's got a no Apple pencil

01:04:01   support and a smaller display and it's

01:04:03   $70 more this is another this is an

01:04:04   article from the verge by the way and

01:04:06   this is another example of Apple's

01:04:08   product lines being not being coherent

01:04:09   lay out all the iPads before I mean

01:04:11   explain to me what the progression is

01:04:14   through your line or what the use cases

01:04:16   are and then you get the iPad Mini for

01:04:18   it but like mm-hmm

01:04:19   this is like for people who want

01:04:21   something smaller but want it to be 2

01:04:24   generations behind are at least

01:04:25   expensive one and have

01:04:26   pencil support and I don't know like I

01:04:28   mean maybe they were in an in-between

01:04:29   period but we used to say that in

01:04:31   beginning like oh this line is in a

01:04:32   transition right but now I feel like we

01:04:35   have enough time to say all the lines

01:04:37   are constantly in transition that

01:04:38   they're never they never get to their

01:04:39   destination they never get to the point

01:04:41   where there is a line that makes sense

01:04:43   and that has good products at all price

01:04:45   points it's always just this long tail

01:04:49   of the residue of yesteryear falling off

01:04:52   the the product line or not falling off

01:04:53   as the case may be we are sponsored this

01:04:57   week by a way for $20 off your suitcase

01:05:00   visit away travel calm slash ATP and use

01:05:03   promo code ATP during checkout away

01:05:06   makes high-quality suitcases with very

01:05:09   smart design features at a much lower

01:05:11   price compared to most other brands they

01:05:13   cut out the middlemen and the whole

01:05:15   retail chain and they sell directly to

01:05:17   you without all that markup that all

01:05:18   those middlemen have to add away

01:05:20   suitcases come from over 10 different

01:05:23   colors and over five sizes they have

01:05:25   carry-ons bigger carry ons medium/large

01:05:28   even a kids carry on all their suitcases

01:05:31   are made with premium German and

01:05:32   polycarbonate that's a very light weight

01:05:34   and it bends when it gets impacted so it

01:05:37   doesn't break the interior features a

01:05:39   patent-pending compression system I love

01:05:41   compression suitcases they really really

01:05:43   help when you have to get a little bit

01:05:44   more in there they have four spinner

01:05:46   wheels and this is really nice if you

01:05:48   never use a four wheel suitcase the way

01:05:50   it handles is so nice especially for the

01:05:52   larger ones I very much like those

01:05:54   there's a tsa approved combination lock

01:05:56   they also have a removable washable

01:05:58   laundry bag so you can keep your dirty

01:06:00   clothes separate from your clean ones as

01:06:02   you travel and then when you get home

01:06:03   you just pop it out and dump it in the

01:06:04   laundry it's wonderful and the carry ons

01:06:07   you might have heard about this the

01:06:08   carry ons have built-in batteries and

01:06:11   they can charge any USB devices so you

01:06:13   can be charging your phone while you're

01:06:15   sitting at the gate waiting for the

01:06:16   plane and that way the whole flight you

01:06:18   got a full phone it's wonderful they

01:06:20   also have new add-ons now they have

01:06:21   packing cubes which I've recently gotten

01:06:23   into and packing cubes if you if you

01:06:25   don't know they're surprisingly useful

01:06:26   they're really good give them your shot

01:06:28   away also offers garment sleeves and all

01:06:31   sorts of wonderful other accessories for

01:06:33   traveling all this is protected by a

01:06:34   lifetime warranty if anything breaks

01:06:36   they will fix or replace it for you for

01:06:39   life

01:06:39   and they have a hundred day trial you

01:06:42   can try their suitcases you can even

01:06:43   travel with them of course the how else

01:06:44   would you try them you can travel with

01:06:46   them for a hundred days if you don't

01:06:47   like it you can return it for a full

01:06:49   refund no questions asked and all this

01:06:51   comes with free shipping on any way

01:06:52   order within the continental US so check

01:06:55   out today way travel comm slash ATP and

01:06:59   use promo code ATP during checkout for

01:07:01   $20 off your suitcase once again for 20

01:07:04   bucks off away travel comm slash ATP

01:07:06   promo code ATP thank you so much to a

01:07:09   way for sponsoring our show all right

01:07:15   let's move on and do some ask ATP shall

01:07:17   we let's start with Chris oh rebo who

01:07:20   asks which Apple product when purchased

01:07:22   from Apple including refurbished and

01:07:23   clearance provides the most value or

01:07:25   functionality per dollar in other words

01:07:27   what's the biggest bang for your buck I

01:07:30   don't have a good answer for this I do I

01:07:34   do

01:07:35   okay good well we don't worry you good

01:07:38   we will get to you momentarily

01:07:40   my first which is not good is what ever

01:07:44   the best iPhone is you can buy because

01:07:46   given all of the things that you can do

01:07:49   with your phone and how amazing your

01:07:51   phone will be get the best one you can

01:07:53   it'll be great bang for your buck my

01:07:55   second answer which is which is probably

01:07:56   the better of the two is air pods they

01:07:59   are expensive but they provide if

01:08:01   assuming they fit in your ears they

01:08:02   provide me endless amounts of joy I

01:08:05   cannot speak highly enough of the air

01:08:07   pods so let's go to mark excuse me let's

01:08:09   go to John who will hopefully have a

01:08:11   very quick answer and then Marco you can

01:08:12   take us home

01:08:13   this is a good one but I still feel like

01:08:15   the one sexy is too much my answer is

01:08:17   the iPhone 8 is I think the most

01:08:19   expensive iPhone is too much like the

01:08:21   iPhone 10 it's not worth the price

01:08:22   premium but the iPhone 8 is a fantastic

01:08:25   phone like it is it's you know if the

01:08:28   iPhone 10 didn't exist the iPhone it

01:08:30   would be a worthy top-end phone and

01:08:32   because the iPhone 10 does exist it can

01:08:34   be less expensive and yeah the iPhone 8

01:08:37   is still expensive but it's a really

01:08:39   great phone and I feel like it gets

01:08:41   overlooked and it's the iPhone is

01:08:43   Apple's best product they put their best

01:08:45   stuff into it it has the the highest

01:08:47   success rate so I feel like that's the

01:08:49   most bang for the buck even though it is

01:08:50   a hell of a lot of bucks is also

01:08:52   a little bang that's a really good pick

01:08:55   I will give you that all right so I kind

01:08:58   of have multiple picks it depends on

01:08:59   like what category you're looking at I I

01:09:01   thought about you know stuff like air

01:09:02   pods but I wanted to just focus on like

01:09:04   computers phones and iPads so like like

01:09:06   so you know so I'm not gonna say like

01:09:07   well you know this one lightning cable

01:09:09   is the best bang for the buck

01:09:11   none of Apple's cables are the best bang

01:09:13   for your buck I know actually I thought

01:09:14   about that like no I can't there's

01:09:16   nothing in these categories anyway and I

01:09:19   also I wanted to enforce some minimum

01:09:21   standards of making things usable and so

01:09:24   iOS devices I decided needed to have at

01:09:28   least 64 gigs of storage and if and for

01:09:31   anything I picked it was an iPad it had

01:09:33   to include a smart cover so that's 40

01:09:35   bucks to the iPad prices for the Mac I

01:09:39   thought at least a 256 gig SSD or a 1

01:09:44   terabyte fusion drive and if it's the

01:09:46   USBC model that I was considering I

01:09:48   added a $100 allowance for adapters and

01:09:51   hubs because I true and I don't mean to

01:09:53   go off and on the laptops again really I

01:09:56   truly don't believe that that the modern

01:09:59   and USB see only laptops are useful

01:10:00   without having you know 50 to 100 hours

01:10:03   worth of adapters and hubs for them in

01:10:06   the same way that an iPad is not useful

01:10:08   without some kind of cover or case

01:10:09   anyway so in the iPhone category which i

01:10:13   think is my overall category probably

01:10:16   because iPhones are just so dan useful

01:10:18   and so damn good I actually picked the

01:10:20   iPhone 7 128 jet black

01:10:23   this goes for 650 new or 590 currently

01:10:26   refurbished from Apple comm you know I

01:10:29   looked at the iPhone se 128 that's 450

01:10:31   that's only new there's no reference for

01:10:33   that so 450 for the iPhone se or 590 for

01:10:36   an iPhone 7 refurb that is such a good

01:10:39   phone I I like it better than the 8

01:10:41   because one of the you know the great

01:10:43   advantage of the jet black is you don't

01:10:44   really need a case because there's so

01:10:45   much grip on it and I think I think it

01:10:46   looks better honestly and then the 8th

01:10:48   does and it's it's still a really solid

01:10:51   modern internals phone that's it slew of

01:10:53   the CPU they just put in this new I've

01:10:55   had to restock you about so the iPhone 7

01:10:57   128 jet black new or refurbished the

01:11:00   best buy right now in the and the iPhone

01:11:02   lineup and possibly the entire Apple

01:11:04   lineup I will also say

01:11:06   in the iPad lineup that new iPad the new

01:11:08   9.7 iPad 128 gigs with Smart Cover is

01:11:12   470 that's a really good deal you can

01:11:15   also get last year's version of it with

01:11:17   Smart Cover refurbished for 350

01:11:19   that's an excellent deal and you can get

01:11:22   the cellular version of last year's

01:11:25   model of that 9.7 in 128 for 450

01:11:28   refurbished that's a cellular iPad I

01:11:32   really enjoy a cellular iPad because if

01:11:34   you're talking about like what's gonna

01:11:35   be what how can I make this thing the

01:11:37   most useful to me

01:11:38   adding cellular really helps a lot this

01:11:40   is one of the reasons why I wish they

01:11:41   data to the laptops because it really

01:11:43   makes this like a truly like portable

01:11:45   work device it's just like a giant phone

01:11:47   then and it's really very nice to have

01:11:49   that sometimes in the laptop category if

01:11:53   you are limiting yourself to the only

01:11:57   modern you know 2016 forward MacBooks

01:12:00   the 13-inch MacBook escape with 256 gig

01:12:04   SSD is 1600 new or 1370 refurb both of

01:12:10   those include that $100 allowance for

01:12:12   Donnell's and hubs if you don't need

01:12:15   retina the 13-inch MacBook Air is still

01:12:17   sold 2:56 gives you 1200 new or 980

01:12:21   refurb I can't I can't pay $900 for

01:12:25   anything with that screen on it I know

01:12:27   and and I that's why I had this as like

01:12:29   a huge habit if you don't need or care

01:12:31   about retina that's a really great buy

01:12:33   it's not the retina it's the it's the

01:12:35   viewing angles color reproduction I just

01:12:37   think it's a bad screen well I think if

01:12:39   you don't care about retina if I'm not

01:12:41   gonna care about that either

01:12:41   oh and for desktop you know 4k iMac I

01:12:44   think eight eight one terabyte fusion 4k

01:12:47   iMac is 1,400 new 1270 refurb that's the

01:12:50   way to go on that however I think the

01:12:51   best Mac value is - nobody surprise the

01:12:56   2015 15 inch macbook pro base model oh

01:13:00   here we go it's 2,000 new or 1700 refurb

01:13:05   for 1700 refurb you get a hell of a

01:13:09   computer you get 16 gigs of ram which

01:13:11   none of the other ones offer at these

01:13:12   prices 256 of course quad core processor

01:13:15   and then you have all the ports you need

01:13:18   you have a keyboard and trackpad or not

01:13:19   controversial and reliable you don't

01:13:21   need any dongles or anything that is

01:13:23   still I think the best overall value in

01:13:26   the Mac lineup

01:13:27   so overall iPhone 7 jet black and the

01:13:33   2015 15 inch base model I've got that

01:13:37   iPhone and I think the eight is a better

01:13:39   deal maybe it's because I just checked

01:13:41   my battery health and it's at 87% and I

01:13:42   felt worse about my phone all right cool

01:13:48   Anson Jim Jablonski writes hey what did

01:13:51   Marco playing marching band or what

01:13:53   musical experience does each of the

01:13:55   hosts have if any so Marco what did you

01:13:57   play in marching band I was in the

01:13:59   percussion section so I started out as a

01:14:01   freshman on crash cymbals right at the

01:14:03   bottom of the totem pole there and then

01:14:05   sophomore year I was in snare drum

01:14:07   junior and senior year I was on quads

01:14:09   fair enough I have never played anything

01:14:12   with any sort of efficacy whatsoever

01:14:14   except I play a mean stereo never mind

01:14:18   John I play keyboards as a kid we had

01:14:22   like electric keyboards in the house i

01:14:23   nibbled around those I did actually take

01:14:25   piano lessons for some short period of

01:14:27   time but I could play songs that I

01:14:31   wanted to play like from the radio and

01:14:32   stuff one on keyboards and in college I

01:14:36   picked up a guitar because everybody on

01:14:38   my floor in my dorm my freshman dorm had

01:14:40   guitars and so it was impossible not to

01:14:42   pick up a guitar all of those

01:14:45   instruments I'm pretty much terrible at

01:14:46   and I could never sight read music but I

01:14:49   could kind of Nan sight read it briefly

01:14:51   for certain instruments moving on

01:14:55   the Italian stallion who was apparently

01:14:57   not John siracusa asks backpack

01:14:59   recommendations that would fit a 15-inch

01:15:01   MacBook Pro I know you just said

01:15:03   backpack but if you don't have to have a

01:15:05   backpack I really love I really love my

01:15:09   tum bin cadet which I'll put a link in

01:15:11   the show notes to my review of that I

01:15:12   have also heard but have not tried

01:15:14   myself to the tambien synapse is

01:15:16   excellent and that is a backpack but

01:15:19   that's probably not useful so does one

01:15:22   of you have a backpack recommendation

01:15:23   that you enjoy I have so to me backpacks

01:15:27   are kind of like the way most people

01:15:28   think of to do apps and like you know

01:15:31   task managers I'm always

01:15:34   about 80 percent satisfied with the

01:15:35   backpack I have and I'm frequently

01:15:37   trying new ones as a result and so I

01:15:41   have tried some of the really nice ones

01:15:43   actually you know some of these are

01:15:44   wonderful I have the the water-filled

01:15:48   designs staad laptop backpack they made

01:15:51   they make a bunch of good stuff and

01:15:53   that's that's very good hold 215 is just

01:15:56   fine I have a really nice Briggs & Riley

01:16:00   backpack I was something like 200 bucks

01:16:03   and I forget exactly which model it is

01:16:06   one of like the active series that's

01:16:08   pretty nice too I recently got a peak

01:16:12   design everyday backpack and that's also

01:16:15   really nice ultimately all of these are

01:16:19   very good none of them are perfect I

01:16:22   have not yet tried Tom Ben I believe the

01:16:24   synapse 25 would be the one to get out

01:16:26   looking at that I would I would love to

01:16:29   see it sometime I might end up trying it

01:16:31   anyway but all of these have pluses

01:16:36   minuses and it depends a lot on what

01:16:37   you're doing if you're using it for like

01:16:40   everyday carrying it to work that's a

01:16:43   very different type of needs from if you

01:16:46   are using it like to bring it on planes

01:16:47   and travel with it or to also have like

01:16:50   you know a weekend worth of clothing and

01:16:51   stuff in it like these are very

01:16:53   different needs the water-filled one is

01:16:55   beautiful

01:16:56   very stylish trendy looks nice the

01:16:59   Briggs & Riley one I found has a lot of

01:17:04   pluses to it but ultimately I didn't

01:17:07   care for the layout of the interior

01:17:10   space like a lot of things are hard to

01:17:13   reach hard to access there's a lot of

01:17:14   seemingly wasted space with like weird

01:17:16   padding areas and stuff that I don't

01:17:18   think need to be there or should be

01:17:19   arranged differently the peak design

01:17:22   everyday backpack is my current one I've

01:17:24   got it recently and it also is very nice

01:17:29   with a few flaws it really does not hold

01:17:31   very much I got the smaller one of the

01:17:33   two and I'm kind of thinking maybe the

01:17:35   bigger one might've been the better bet

01:17:36   it's it's fine in that way but it if you

01:17:40   it's it holds plenty if you want it to

01:17:43   be like a laptop bag going to work I

01:17:45   would say though for a 15-inch MacBook

01:17:47   Pro

01:17:47   it just barely fits in the peak design

01:17:50   like the laptop pocket is very tight its

01:17:52   squeezing my laptop such that I'm

01:17:54   getting keyboard imprints on the screen

01:17:56   so I don't love that I honestly would

01:17:58   not recommend it for daily use if only

01:18:01   for that whereas the the water-filled

01:18:04   staad I think is better for that but at

01:18:07   these prices I expect I expect like

01:18:11   perfection at four to pay you know $300

01:18:14   ish for a backpack and I haven't found

01:18:16   that yet so I'm all ears if anybody has

01:18:18   something else they'd like but

01:18:19   ultimately I think that it's the kind of

01:18:21   category where like what's perfect for

01:18:24   one person is gonna be totally wrong for

01:18:26   another person and it's all gonna be a

01:18:27   personal preference and you just got to

01:18:29   you know try it out and see for yourself

01:18:30   yeah yeah so the closest I've got to a

01:18:33   backpack that I really like is actually

01:18:35   it's not sold anymore but there's an

01:18:36   equivalent is this LL Bean backpack I I

01:18:40   don't know what that model mine is but

01:18:41   the closest one they have is now called

01:18:43   the quad backpack and it's it's so close

01:18:45   I like I like backpacks first of all

01:18:47   that are cheap this is like 80 bucks

01:18:48   they have tons of little pockets

01:18:50   everywhere on them so you can put all

01:18:52   those dongles that we need then this

01:18:53   dongle lifestyle that we have now it's

01:18:56   got an inside pocket they will fit any

01:18:58   you know fit a 15-inch laptop and it

01:19:00   also an iPad inside a case inside that

01:19:02   same pocket and then it's got tons of

01:19:04   other interior space and all sorts of

01:19:05   little pockets and it's kind of it's not

01:19:08   fashionable it's not made of nice

01:19:09   material so just kind of like durable

01:19:11   kind of like kind of like camping type

01:19:12   equipment right it's not there's no

01:19:14   leather anywhere on this thing right so

01:19:16   if you want to look good forget about it

01:19:18   the one thing that annoys me about this

01:19:19   backpack then you should be warned about

01:19:21   is that it has tons of weird straps

01:19:23   everywhere you're like oh if you're

01:19:24   stuffing it filled the camping stuff you

01:19:27   need the strap that goes around your

01:19:28   waist and the straps the two straps on

01:19:29   the side that hold my backpack together

01:19:31   and I considered cutting them off but

01:19:33   it's actually kind of hard to cut them

01:19:34   off cuz it's pretty durable so but I

01:19:36   have found a way to tuck the straps that

01:19:38   I'm not using into some of the pockets

01:19:40   so they're mostly out of the way it's

01:19:41   still an annoyance if it didn't have

01:19:43   those straps I think it would be close

01:19:44   to perfect for me because that's what I

01:19:46   want to know if you cheap durable light

01:19:48   and have tons of pockets and zippers and

01:19:50   not fall apart and so far other cell

01:19:53   being back practice fit the bill I will

01:19:55   say to in for the peak design everyday

01:19:57   backpack it really excels at hiding all

01:20:00   of the extra straps and

01:20:01   stuff that it can that can be used in

01:20:03   pink like every strap that it has has

01:20:05   some kind of pocket that it belongs in

01:20:08   when it's not being used and so it's

01:20:10   totally invisible out of the way it is

01:20:12   very well designed for like expansion of

01:20:15   that but yeah ultimately like I I wish

01:20:18   it was a little bigger something I might

01:20:19   have to try the bigger version of it but

01:20:21   and I also wished that like apartment

01:20:23   wasn't so crushing but hopefully this

01:20:25   summer I'll moved to a 13 inch newer one

01:20:27   and that should probably solve that

01:20:28   problem for me do you guys are do

01:20:30   packing cubes when you travel not in the

01:20:35   traditional sense I do have that go pack

01:20:37   that I talk about all the time that is

01:20:38   sort of ish like a packing cube that's

01:20:42   just basically got all my dongles and

01:20:44   things of that nature in it but what

01:20:46   you're talking about I think is you know

01:20:48   packing like clothes and other things of

01:20:49   that nature in packing cubes and this

01:20:52   appeals to me from an organizational

01:20:54   standpoint I feel like this is something

01:20:56   that I would really like but I've never

01:20:58   done it and it doesn't seem like I don't

01:21:01   really get why people would do this even

01:21:04   though it sounds like it would be

01:21:05   something I would like you know what I

01:21:06   mean so what are you asking because you

01:21:09   haven't or because you're trying it now

01:21:10   or what brings this up so I recently

01:21:12   started a lot of our friends travel a

01:21:15   lot way more than I do and and I kept

01:21:18   hearing from people like oh you gotta

01:21:19   try packing cubes or or just generally

01:21:21   like like the the style of traveling or

01:21:24   packing where you have like sub bags in

01:21:27   your bags you know that's all packing

01:21:29   cubes are are just like you know

01:21:31   rectangular solid sub bags that you put

01:21:33   in your bags that's that's basically it

01:21:35   and so you know III was usually of the

01:21:39   style of using the bags pockets as

01:21:43   dividers and compartments but the the

01:21:46   packing cube and sub bag lifestyle seems

01:21:49   to want to have just like large open

01:21:52   compartments in the bags and then you

01:21:55   have your own like sub bag things that

01:21:57   you put in there that are separate from

01:22:00   that at to be your separation

01:22:02   organization and so I've recently tried

01:22:05   I wanted to when I got my cool peak

01:22:07   design everyday backpack I decided to

01:22:09   also try the packing cube lifestyle for

01:22:11   a couple of these trips I've taken

01:22:12   recently and

01:22:13   I kind of say I see the benefit it's

01:22:15   pretty cool like Tiffany fundamentally

01:22:17   but then she wanted to sum as soon as

01:22:19   she saw how they worked because what's

01:22:21   nice about them is that there's a few

01:22:23   benefits number one like it is actually

01:22:26   nicer to organize things that way in a

01:22:27   bag and if you get the compression cubes

01:22:30   that have like slightly compressing

01:22:32   zippers around there around the

01:22:33   perimeter it actually does help compress

01:22:36   your clothes slightly in a controlled

01:22:37   way that doesn't like you know

01:22:38   excessively wrinkle them or anything but

01:22:40   a really nice thing about the packing

01:22:41   cubes is that if when you arrive at a

01:22:44   hotel you can just take the pack and

01:22:46   cube it right out of your bag and just

01:22:47   place them like in the drawers if you if

01:22:49   you use the drawers in hotel you could

01:22:51   put them the drawers and open them up

01:22:52   and then you have like oh here's my sock

01:22:54   rectangle you know here's my shirt

01:22:56   rectangle and it's like it's actually

01:22:58   really nice and so I think I've been

01:23:02   converted I want to do a little more

01:23:03   traveling with them I've done two trips

01:23:05   so far with them but I think I'm being

01:23:08   converted to the the sub bag and packing

01:23:11   cube lifestyle mm-hmm so what you you

01:23:14   said you have one for socks in like one

01:23:15   for shirts or like what did you end up

01:23:17   doing so I got a variety of sizes if

01:23:21   you're looking at the at the Eagle Creek

01:23:22   ones I would say the small and medium

01:23:25   sizes are the ones to get at the rest of

01:23:27   the sizes I have not yet found much of a

01:23:28   use for so small medium and compression

01:23:31   if possible and and they're not cheap

01:23:34   they end up being like 25 bucks each

01:23:36   something like that but but they did

01:23:37   they do seem pretty well-made I have

01:23:39   like the the tech line that has like

01:23:41   slightly higher tech fabric and a little

01:23:43   bit lighter I haven't quite worked the

01:23:44   whole system yet but I have like you

01:23:45   know one of them will basically put like

01:23:47   all my underwear and socks in and this

01:23:49   depends on like how much you need to

01:23:50   bring and I'm only again use this for

01:23:52   two trips so far so take all this with a

01:23:53   grain of salt but like all underwear and

01:23:55   socks were going one and then all

01:23:56   t-shirts will go in another and then if

01:23:59   I'm if I've had if having extra pants

01:24:00   I'll put those in one and that's about

01:24:02   it they have something that you can you

01:24:04   can fold like dress shirts into I

01:24:06   haven't tried that yet it's it's just

01:24:07   it's kind of nice and then it's it makes

01:24:11   it easier to pack it makes it more more

01:24:13   organized in the bag to get stuff or if

01:24:16   you have to move stuff around in the bag

01:24:17   fit to rearrange stuff it's surprisingly

01:24:19   nice like I I thought they were

01:24:20   pointless but now I get it

01:24:22   and I'm sold you know I've tried a new

01:24:27   thought

01:24:27   technology with regard to packing which

01:24:29   is rolling rather than folding the

01:24:31   rolling people oh yeah you roll the

01:24:33   stuff into the packing cubes that's it

01:24:35   helps a lot I feel like it's probably a

01:24:38   placebo but I really feel like I can get

01:24:42   considerably more stuff into my bag when

01:24:44   it's rolled and it's more likely to come

01:24:46   out less wrinkled it is still a wrinkled

01:24:49   disaster but it is less so then when I

01:24:52   think and and so I have been converted

01:24:55   to the rolling lifestyle that like I

01:24:57   said that's a nice thought technology in

01:24:58   my world that I have embraced but but

01:25:01   yeah the packing cube is still beyond me

01:25:03   John why do you scoff it rolling you're

01:25:06   not a fan a couple of reasons

01:25:10   I'm not into rolling and I'm not into

01:25:12   the packing things the rolling well the

01:25:15   same reason I guess and I feel like all

01:25:19   my items of clothing have a natural size

01:25:22   that they want to be folded at and that

01:25:24   size is not rolled and it probably

01:25:26   doesn't match any of the packing things

01:25:28   like they I need to fold things at the

01:25:31   size that they want to be folded they

01:25:33   speak to me like how big should I be and

01:25:35   if I tried you may default my shirts

01:25:37   bigger or smaller maybe because I'm a

01:25:39   limited folder maybe I have a limited

01:25:40   repertoire of folding skills like I'm

01:25:42   not good at folding laundry I fold

01:25:43   things the way I fold them I know that

01:25:45   the garment tell me how it wants to be

01:25:47   folded right and the other thing is with

01:25:49   my let the garments speak to me and tell

01:25:51   me how to folding combined with my

01:25:53   fairly obsessive over packing I can pack

01:25:57   any of my suitcases easily to the point

01:26:00   where they exceed the weight limit that

01:26:01   airlines have so I don't need any

01:26:03   compression thing to help me get more

01:26:05   into the bag if anything I have to

01:26:07   intentionally pack less efficiently so I

01:26:09   don't go over the weight limit and have

01:26:10   to pull things out of my bag to get it

01:26:12   on the plane because the weight limits

01:26:14   are like what 50 pounds at 4050 pounds

01:26:16   well it's it's not a weight limit so

01:26:17   much as there's a fee if you go over it

01:26:19   yeah well anyway I don't want to have

01:26:21   that fee and I don't wanna go over the

01:26:22   limit and sometimes actually is a limit

01:26:23   that will make you have another check

01:26:24   another bag or something so I am always

01:26:27   on the ragged edge of that limit with no

01:26:30   packing cubes and no rolling and folding

01:26:31   my clothes the way they naturally want

01:26:34   to be folded so I feel like this is not

01:26:36   a problem I have in my life and I'm not

01:26:37   looking at for ways to Jam more stuff

01:26:39   into my suitcase and I'm definitely not

01:26:41   looking for ways to make me have to

01:26:42   learn how to fold my clothes in a

01:26:43   different way than the one and only way

01:26:45   I know how to fold them well it is

01:26:46   really nice if like if you're checking a

01:26:48   bag then yeah you're right the weight

01:26:49   limit is usually a bigger problem but

01:26:51   it's really nice if you are kind of on

01:26:53   the border between needing to check it

01:26:55   and being able to fit in a carry-on and

01:26:56   I love just traveling with a carry-on if

01:26:59   possible oh so nice to just bypass the

01:27:01   baggage claim and just walk right it

01:27:03   just leave and you're just you're just

01:27:04   done you have what you have everything

01:27:06   you need with you you just walk out and

01:27:07   you're done like that's wonderful so

01:27:10   where this stuff helps is not in

01:27:13   cramming you know 75 pounds or the stuff

01:27:15   into a very large check bag but in

01:27:18   fitting into a carry-on where otherwise

01:27:20   you might not have fit into a carry-on

01:27:22   or your underscore not even having an

01:27:25   carry hunt but just having a backpack

01:27:27   for an entire week which it still blows

01:27:29   my mind cuz I like I said I'm a massive

01:27:31   over packer and he apparently needs no

01:27:33   human sustenance of any kind it is very

01:27:37   satisfying to have to be to be packed

01:27:41   very lightly on a trip and to need very

01:27:43   little and to use everything you have

01:27:44   like I actually I tried one of the

01:27:47   traffickers took was this this trip

01:27:48   where I was helping my fellow man remove

01:27:50   and because I was gonna be like you know

01:27:52   taking space in a very full moving

01:27:55   convoy of the trucks I didn't want to

01:27:58   have a large bag myself I figure that

01:27:59   was wasteful and and you know I want to

01:28:01   leave as much space as possible for his

01:28:02   stuff you've got a whole moving truck

01:28:04   you afraid you aren't gonna have room

01:28:05   you have a moving truck no you haven't

01:28:06   even a stuff but it was it was full and

01:28:10   so I brought for this trip I brought

01:28:12   only my peak design everyday backpack

01:28:15   and I shoved everything I needed for

01:28:17   three days or four days whatever was

01:28:20   into this backpack it was glorious like

01:28:23   there was no space left over and I had

01:28:25   to do some pretty crazy stuff I only had

01:28:27   one pair of pants but it was glorious to

01:28:30   have everything fit in in like one

01:28:33   backpack including my computer these two

01:28:36   walkie-talkies some accessories for

01:28:38   driving like I brought like my cell

01:28:39   phone suction cup piece of garbage like

01:28:41   I like I brought a whole bunch of like

01:28:43   you know stuff that would that would be

01:28:44   necessary for the trip coffee tubes yeah

01:28:46   I brought my my tubes of instant coffee

01:28:48   Southern coffee so does now it matters

01:28:52   all your items of clothing smelly coffee

01:28:54   wedged into this bag with the coffee

01:28:56   tubes no the tubes are sealed all right

01:28:58   no no no said they were canvas I thought

01:29:00   maybe they'd be no no they're plastic

01:29:02   tubes like that come in a pretty canvas

01:29:04   bag yeah so and it is very satisfying I

01:29:08   would love like to travel with everybody

01:29:10   see I would love to travel with just

01:29:11   like one of the like the smallest roller

01:29:14   bag size you know that like but the

01:29:16   pilots usually have I have one of those

01:29:18   it's glorious I love being on offense

01:29:20   that the only reason I don't for

01:29:21   everybody to see is that we we bring

01:29:24   like all podcasts to do so so I might

01:29:26   have all this gear but like I'm trips

01:29:28   where I don't have that I love packing

01:29:29   as small as possible

01:29:30   sure maybe you can put the fit the

01:29:33   podcasting studio in one of his inside

01:29:35   jacket pockets I really want to just

01:29:40   emphasize what you guys are saying about

01:29:43   underscores packing because we for a

01:29:45   long time would fly out together I would

01:29:47   drive up to Dulles which is which is

01:29:49   reasonably close to his house and we

01:29:50   would take the same flight and try to

01:29:52   sit next to each other and whatnot and I

01:29:54   would be rolling in with like my laptop

01:29:56   bag which is bursting at the seams and

01:29:58   it's in a carry-on bag which was

01:30:00   bursting at the seams and that pain in

01:30:02   my rear end rolls in with like a lightly

01:30:04   stuffed backpack it's not even like a

01:30:08   lightly packed backpack and that is all

01:30:11   he has that's his computer that's his

01:30:13   toiletries his luggage everything is

01:30:16   bleep packed for a week it's inhuman

01:30:19   I've asked him about this every year a

01:30:21   spell of this and every year he's just

01:30:23   gotta shrugs and smirks and basically

01:30:25   says I don't need a lot it's so it's

01:30:27   both delightful and in fear he hating

01:30:30   all at the same time because I'm like

01:30:31   John I Peck way too much in over the

01:30:34   years I have gotten that beaten out of

01:30:36   me like over time I have gotten better

01:30:38   about not packing everything in the

01:30:40   world and I still pack way too much you

01:30:42   saying what you just described as half

01:30:44   of what I pack B zero like you bag I

01:30:47   have a full-size suitcase like the

01:30:49   biggest the highest weight limit

01:30:51   suitcase you can get and then my

01:30:53   backpack I mean I adore my Owais new

01:30:57   case and they happen to be sponsoring

01:30:58   this episode and they carry on I mean

01:31:00   it's a wonderful wonderful suitcase I

01:31:02   would say that even if we weren't

01:31:04   compensated to say that but it is not

01:31:07   you know half

01:31:08   it's it's it's carry on I mean which

01:31:11   makes sense and I can get you know like

01:31:13   the last year I got my entire week's

01:31:16   worth of luggage my toiletry kit my my

01:31:18   go pack and a pair of running shoes in

01:31:20   there and I was very proud of myself

01:31:21   because for me that was a heck of an

01:31:24   accomplishment and underscore I think he

01:31:27   was wearing you know sneakers for the

01:31:29   for the week so we didn't have to have a

01:31:30   second pair of shoes but he had like

01:31:32   running clothes he probably brought a

01:31:34   damn kettle for his coffee flow I know

01:31:36   this backpack it's like Santa's freaking

01:31:39   bag that he has it's it's an it's

01:31:41   incredible so thanks to our sponsors

01:31:43   this week away aftershocks and Jeff now

01:31:47   and we'll talk to you next week

01:31:49   [Music]

01:32:01   [Music]

01:32:03   research Marco and Casey wouldn't let

01:32:06   him cuz it was accidentally was

01:32:10   accidental and you can find the show

01:32:14   notes at a follow them CAS pyl ISS and

01:32:27   that's Casey less ma RC own a RM auntie

01:32:32   Marco Arment si are they see you at

01:32:37   Syracuse

01:32:51   by the way for people wondering about

01:32:53   the inside jacket pocket thing

01:32:55   underscore is the first person I saw who

01:32:57   had a macbook won the little 12-inch

01:32:59   MacBook with one USB C port literally

01:33:02   inside his jacket pocket takes out a

01:33:06   laptop yeah his wife custom-made a

01:33:08   pocket she sewed it on the inside of the

01:33:10   jacket that would fit exactly that

01:33:12   laptop and it was amazing to see

01:33:15   somebody especially like underscore as

01:33:17   you men he's like he's so like

01:33:19   frustratingly organized all the time

01:33:22   like he he's so like together and he

01:33:25   just like and and everything he does he

01:33:28   makes look he makes it look effortless

01:33:29   it's just no big deal like totally he

01:33:33   has all the grace in the world like just

01:33:35   and so like he's just like yeah we're

01:33:37   like we were standing in line at the at

01:33:39   the last Santa the last WC in San

01:33:41   Francisco we were outside that whatever

01:33:43   Center that it was we had to walk all

01:33:45   the way over they get to get there and

01:33:46   he just like whips this ad like we were

01:33:48   like oh we should check that sometime or

01:33:50   you know and he just he's like oh I'll

01:33:52   check it right now and he whips out this

01:33:54   laptop out of his jacket walking with

01:34:01   him standing in line with him it's like

01:34:02   you know yeah we had no idea and it was

01:34:04   like a it was like a fleece it was not

01:34:06   like a big winter coat it was it was

01:34:08   like a light fleece oh man I love that

01:34:10   guy but there's certain there's certain

01:34:12   times that I want to strangle him in the

01:34:14   best possible way and that's one of them

01:34:15   because I really you know what it is

01:34:17   about underscore is that he he very very

01:34:21   well reflects to me my own failings but

01:34:26   he's like the nicest human being in the

01:34:27   world and so you can't be upset at him

01:34:30   because he's the nicest guy ever yeah

01:34:32   like my favorite compliment I ever

01:34:35   received was I I once I had sent John

01:34:38   Gruber some of my home roasted coffee he

01:34:40   said I almost want to say fuck you this

01:34:41   is so good and that's kind of how it's

01:34:44   like one underscore does something

01:34:45   awesome and I'm like it's almost like

01:34:47   he's such a nice guy like you don't you

01:34:49   can't get mad at him but you're just

01:34:50   like damn it white like yeah yeah why

01:34:52   can I not why have I either not thought

01:34:54   of that or not gotten it together to do

01:34:56   that

01:34:57   it's so true so true just comfort

01:35:00   yourself by thinking that just try to

01:35:02   try a picture in your head underscore

01:35:04   like being frustrated at something I'm

01:35:06   getting and getting angry I don't think

01:35:08   I've ever seen him even mildly like

01:35:12   disturbed like he's never been

01:35:14   particularly angry about anything in my

01:35:17   experience and having known him for

01:35:18   several years now I've never seen him

01:35:21   angry

01:35:21   never seen him particularly upset

01:35:22   sometimes he'll kind of do the

01:35:24   exasperated laugh of oh well that's the

01:35:26   brakes but yeah he's like the least

01:35:30   fazed person I've ever seen in I am I am

01:35:33   somewhat skeptical that he has ever

01:35:35   raised his voice for any reason ever I

01:35:37   believe he has and I pictured that to

01:35:39   make me feel better about myself the

01:35:44   best part of all is he's gonna be

01:35:45   listening to this at some absurd hour

01:35:47   tomorrow morning because he typically

01:35:48   bootlegs all this and he is going to be

01:35:50   so deeply embarrassed by this entire

01:35:52   conversation which isn't actually

01:35:53   something I should be proud of but it is

01:35:55   making me laugh a little bit maybe

01:35:57   that's his one flaw that's the one his

01:36:00   one flaw excessive modesty Wow job

01:36:07   interview responses what's your worst

01:36:11   [Laughter]

01:36:11   [Laughter]

00:00:00   so how was the trip did we talk about

00:00:01   this publicly I don't know that we did

00:00:03   are we talking about this publicly

00:00:04   whether or not it makes the show the

00:00:06   only thing that made the show is the

00:00:06   walkie talkie bit okay where John was

00:00:09   making fun of me for buying

00:00:10   walkie-talkies for a road trip yeah I do

00:00:14   want to hear about that but not this

00:00:15   minute but how is the other parts of the

00:00:17   trip just out of curiosity no hey wait

00:00:20   way too many combos enjoy you're a good

00:00:24   roadside coffee or did you bring a

00:00:26   gigantic thermos of coffee with you oh

00:00:29   you're gonna make so much fun of me if I

00:00:31   mentioned this before I I have a God I

00:00:34   have a monthly subscription to a fancy

00:00:37   hipster instant coffee thing from San

00:00:39   Francisco why I get eight little tubes

00:00:44   of instant coffee powder a month

00:00:46   delivered in a little canvas bag and

00:00:48   they cost like a dollar fifty each

00:00:51   it's a subscription and it's insta

00:00:55   coffee you dump it into water and it

00:00:56   makes good coffee it's it's basically

00:00:58   they're a really good version of instant

00:01:00   coffee and it turns out instant coffee

00:01:02   got popular for very good reasons it's

00:01:04   pretty damn convenient when you're

00:01:05   traveling you know like I'm on the plane

00:01:07   I got a cup of hot water please and I

00:01:09   got a hot water cup and I dumped my

00:01:10   coffee into it and stirred it up and had

00:01:12   my like insufferable hipster coffee

00:01:14   right there on the plane it was

00:01:17   wonderful he would i'm so sorry for

00:01:19   anybody who cares that the sudden coffee

00:01:20   that's the name of it because it's not

00:01:22   instant it's sudden ha ha sounds like

00:01:26   like it surprises you a cup of water and

00:01:29   almost brown anyway it's not cheap but

00:01:41   it's pretty good if anybody needs this

00:01:42   kind of thing it's pretty that's pretty

00:01:44   much that your motto it's not cheap but

00:01:46   it's good this is why I like I like

00:01:48   anybody listening is probably like of

00:01:50   course I have that surprising this is

00:01:54   surprising I thought you're gonna say

00:01:55   you have like the underscore kit where

00:01:57   you have this is entire a bunch of

00:01:59   paraphernalia that you'd take out in the

00:02:00   car including a little table lap desk to

00:02:03   set it all up on plug in a kettle into

00:02:06   the 12 volt socket in the car and just

00:02:08   you know I used to do that kind of like

00:02:11   fancy you know III brought my ear press

00:02:13   on a couple of

00:02:13   trips and it was just such a pain I have

00:02:16   I got a travel grinder and everything

00:02:18   like it and I just I found that not

00:02:21   worth the hassle and so instead I for a

00:02:24   while I would just drink tea on trips

00:02:26   I'd bring my own fancy tea bags but I

00:02:28   don't like tea that much and you know

00:02:29   coffees better and so I I found this and

00:02:33   I decided oh you know even though it's a

00:02:35   subscription which I don't like I'm like

00:02:36   well I'll try it I'll see how it is and

00:02:39   it's been good enough that I kept it up

00:02:41   like I I use it I don't I don't always

00:02:43   use it regularly like sometimes like

00:02:45   I'll accumulate a couple extras that I

00:02:47   haven't used in the last month but it's

00:02:49   fantastic for road trips sometimes I'll

00:02:51   just tear up one of those tubes and dump

00:02:53   it in his mouth he doesn't care I

00:02:54   actually did that once I was on a road

00:02:59   trip and I was I didn't want to stop to

00:03:01   get like a cup of hot water because like

00:03:03   there was no good place nearby to do

00:03:04   that so I just kind of slowly ate the

00:03:07   crystals tasted fine a little strong

00:03:11   that's really sad somewhat someone draw

00:03:12   a comic is that how come people never

00:03:14   draw comics for our show somebody drops

00:03:16   a demarco eating the instant coffee

00:03:17   hipster instant coffee out of the tube

00:03:19   maybe a little tear it tear going down

00:03:22   his outside of his space driving on the

00:03:24   Long Island Expressway well another

00:03:25   reason right here all right let's start

00:03:31   with some follow up John tell me about

00:03:33   breath of the wild on the WiiU last week

00:03:35   what are we talking about it oh you're

00:03:37   talking about bitna Civ consoles is one

00:03:38   of the ask ATP questions and I was

00:03:40   telling me about how power still makes a

00:03:42   difference in the modern era and talk

00:03:44   about a game like breath of the wild

00:03:45   which is a large open world a zelda game

00:03:47   and how you couldn't play it on a less

00:03:49   powerful console and I said the Wii U

00:03:51   and I should have just said the weak

00:03:52   because obviously in the grand tradition

00:03:55   I guess two two data points my tradition

00:03:57   of Zelda games that are initially

00:03:59   developed for one console but take so

00:04:01   long to get done that the second console

00:04:04   comes out and then they launch it on

00:04:06   both consoles simultaneously that was

00:04:08   the case with the breath of the wild was

00:04:10   actually developed for the Wii U and

00:04:11   only later launched on the switch and

00:04:15   that happened with Twilight Princess for

00:04:17   the Gamecube and the Wii although

00:04:19   Twilight Princess I highly recommend

00:04:21   playing it on the Gamecube but not on

00:04:22   the Wii because the motion controls are

00:04:24   not very good so a surprisingly small

00:04:27   number of people sent in that correction

00:04:29   but to the people who did a good job pin

00:04:32   to everyone else John is disappointed

00:04:34   yes seriously pretty big pretty big gap

00:04:38   in the grand scheme of things if it was

00:04:40   a maybe if it was about like Apple stuff

00:04:42   we would've got more people half of the

00:04:44   internet wrote in to tell us that the

00:04:46   space gray keyboard mouse and Magic

00:04:48   Trackpad are all available separately

00:04:50   now if that's your cup of tea

00:04:52   I am currently fondling and touching a

00:04:55   Space Gray keyboard and I have a Space

00:04:57   Gray magic magic mouse next to me and I

00:05:00   have a Space Gray magic trap track bed

00:05:02   that I use from time to time these were

00:05:03   all secondhand from friend of the show

00:05:05   underscore David Smith who did not

00:05:07   charge me a premium however Apple will

00:05:09   charge you a $20 price premium because

00:05:10   Apple yeah what is it that the dark ones

00:05:14   I mean technically they could do this

00:05:16   with any color let's just make fewer of

00:05:18   them and then charge more because

00:05:19   they're more rare sure you do a little

00:05:21   time but in general Apple doesn't seem

00:05:23   to do that with things that come in

00:05:24   colors like you can get your phones or

00:05:26   iPads and various colors gold rose gold

00:05:28   Space Gray sometimes they come in black

00:05:31   but there's no price difference between

00:05:33   the colors you know somehow in the Mac

00:05:34   world every time something gets a darker

00:05:36   color it's an extra 20 bucks or

00:05:38   something and I don't know it for some

00:05:41   reason it bothers me that you can get

00:05:43   iOS devices in different colors for the

00:05:47   same price but in the Mac side that's

00:05:48   not the case so anyway I just hope if

00:05:50   you're out there listening this you

00:05:51   didn't buy a Space Gray iMac pro

00:05:54   keyboard for $1,500 on ebay because that

00:05:58   would have been a bad move I kind of

00:05:59   feel like I feel like my iMac pro is

00:06:01   less special now these are available for

00:06:03   to anybody I'm so sorry oh you know

00:06:05   listeners so the show would have been

00:06:07   well warned because this the iMac Rose

00:06:10   came out we were surprised the you know

00:06:13   wasn't our prediction that they wouldn't

00:06:14   sell for a lot of me Bay because people

00:06:15   would realize Apple's gonna introduce

00:06:16   them and then new things will be

00:06:18   worthless but alas that's not the way

00:06:20   people think and so some people did buy

00:06:23   them and sell them apparently for very

00:06:24   high prices on eBay I hope all those

00:06:26   people are sad now

00:06:27   snarky John tonight is everything okay

00:06:30   and the people who sold them are and

00:06:32   said that's true yeah I guess well they

00:06:35   should because they took advantage of

00:06:36   somebody that

00:06:37   feel bad about that ring only if Apple

00:06:39   should not feel bad they're charging $20

00:06:41   more for no reason

00:06:42   $20 premium is better than like a one

00:06:44   thousand three hundred and fifty dollar

00:06:45   premium we are sponsoring this week by

00:06:49   jammed now jammed now helps you set up

00:06:52   manage and protect your Apple devices on

00:06:54   demand you can start a free trial today

00:06:56   at jam com / ATP that's JAMF calm / ATP

00:07:00   it's pretty easy to keep track of your

00:07:03   own Mac iPad or not an iPhone you know

00:07:05   if you have your own it's personal

00:07:07   that's fine it's easy but what about if

00:07:09   you have an organization what about

00:07:10   other Apple devices in an organization

00:07:13   with employees as a business grows it

00:07:15   gets harder to manage everyone's iPad

00:07:18   iPhone and Mac this is especially true

00:07:20   if you are a distributed geographically

00:07:22   where you have employees in different

00:07:23   locations with jammed now you can check

00:07:26   real time inventory you can configure

00:07:28   Wi-Fi and email settings deploy

00:07:30   applications protect sensitive company

00:07:32   data and even lock or remote wipe a

00:07:34   device from anywhere jams now managers

00:07:37   and protects your device so you can

00:07:39   focus on your business instead and it's

00:07:41   super easy to use you don't need to be

00:07:43   an IT expert or have any kind of

00:07:44   complicated setup or any experience

00:07:46   whatsoever managing this kind of stuff

00:07:48   Jam for now is so easy to use anybody

00:07:50   can do it you can start securing your

00:07:52   business today with jams now by setting

00:07:54   up your first three devices for free you

00:07:56   can see how it is try it out you can add

00:07:58   more after that for just two dollars a

00:08:00   month per device so go create your free

00:08:03   account today at Jam comm slash ATP

00:08:06   that's JAMF comm slash ATP thank you so

00:08:10   much to Jam 2 now for sponsoring our

00:08:11   show I would at this point plug our live

00:08:18   show and that is going to be happening

00:08:20   at WV DC on Monday night but it is sold

00:08:22   out so if you happen to have a ticket

00:08:24   and no you won't need it please get in

00:08:26   contact with alt conf and let them know

00:08:29   that or tell a friend or do something

00:08:31   but uh we have no control over

00:08:34   attendance we have no sway over wait

00:08:36   lists or anything like that

00:08:37   so thank you to everyone who has

00:08:39   purchased the ticket we hope to see you

00:08:41   there and it should be really exciting

00:08:44   it'll win one from a friend in a game of

00:08:45   chance I'm assuming this is a reference

00:08:48   I'm not aware of

00:08:49   anyway all right so Marco you went on a

00:08:52   really long road trip recently and you

00:08:54   had mentioned briefly in the last

00:08:56   episode that you had bought some

00:08:57   walkie-talkies to take with you because

00:08:59   it was going to be a multi-car caravan

00:09:01   the last I tried to use walkie-talkies

00:09:04   which was just a handful of years ago

00:09:05   they were promised to work for like 34

00:09:08   zillion miles and worked for about 34

00:09:11   feet so mm-hmm

00:09:12   tell me about your fans I'm sure you

00:09:15   bought the most heinous ly expensive

00:09:16   walkie-talkies you could find tell me

00:09:18   how well or not well they worked so they

00:09:21   were only I think it was something like

00:09:22   sixty or seventy dollars for a pair and

00:09:25   then I loaded all the accessories like

00:09:26   the charging base and everything so I

00:09:28   wouldn't say that was that expensive

00:09:30   it's some kind of Cobra if you look at

00:09:32   the if you look at Amazon like the Cobra

00:09:33   model that is the highest of its group

00:09:37   that's the one I got it's like some like

00:09:38   that for a pair and it's the one it has

00:09:41   a very useful feature this is one of the

00:09:43   reasons I went to this model that it has

00:09:46   a repeat that back button so it keeps a

00:09:49   buffer over the last few things that

00:09:51   were said and so if you miss what

00:09:52   somebody said you can just hit that and

00:09:53   it plays it again which is really useful

00:09:56   anyway John made fun of me relentlessly

00:09:59   for buying walkie-talkies for the for

00:10:01   the purpose of communicating between two

00:10:02   vehicles on a road trip because we have

00:10:04   cell phones and that was a really good

00:10:06   argument cell phones do sound way better

00:10:08   unfortunately it takes a little bit of

00:10:11   time to create a cell phone connection

00:10:13   you have to you know pick up the phone

00:10:15   I'm locking if it's not unlock tap

00:10:16   something find them you know connect oh

00:10:19   walkie talkie you literally just push

00:10:20   button and you immediately can say

00:10:21   something to them I told you you should

00:10:23   have had your phone's connected the

00:10:24   whole time yes we were like listening to

00:10:26   music and podcasts and stuff the whole

00:10:27   time with our phone a muted and when you

00:10:29   want to talk you hit the mute you don't

00:10:30   like your browsing Twitter on it

00:10:31   bouncing up dashboard hit the mute

00:10:33   button mutant you know but the phone was

00:10:36   being used for the media so that that's

00:10:39   no good podcaster music or navigation

00:10:44   directions I was we were also using ways

00:10:46   to navigate you can do all that at once

00:10:47   on your phone mmm

00:10:49   nope you can't play media while you're

00:10:51   up taking a phone call anyway so and

00:10:53   also what I wear these really came in

00:10:56   handy besides the incredibly fast

00:10:58   ability to just push a button and say

00:10:59   something quick like like hey watch out

00:11:01   don't merge left yet or something

00:11:03   that or you wanna stop at this exit you

00:11:04   know really quick stuff but also know

00:11:08   not not the entirety of our trip had

00:11:10   cellphone coverage because we were going

00:11:13   to a very rural place at the end of the

00:11:14   trip the entire last like 45 minutes had

00:11:19   no coverage during which we were on the

00:11:21   walkie-talkies a lot to coordinate

00:11:23   things like where we were gonna Park

00:11:24   this giant truck and how like what

00:11:26   direction I had to face how we were

00:11:27   going to get it that way what we were

00:11:29   gonna do once we got there how we were

00:11:30   gonna like do the very first steps to

00:11:32   unload it and all the logistics involved

00:11:34   they proved to be invaluable everybody

00:11:37   involved in this trip was very very

00:11:39   happy that we had these walkie talkies

00:11:42   they were wonderful in ways that a phone

00:11:45   either would have been worse or would

00:11:46   have not worked at all so John was

00:11:47   totally wrong and to answer Casey's

00:11:49   question the the range I did a little

00:11:53   bit of research obviously when buying

00:11:54   these and it appears you know most of

00:11:57   you most of them seem to quote a range

00:11:59   of somewhere between like 10 and 50

00:12:03   miles and it's not it doesn't take that

00:12:05   much digging to realize that that's

00:12:07   actually like if you're like two people

00:12:09   on top of mountaintops with nothing

00:12:11   between you that's like the most ideal

00:12:14   scenario of like nothing obstructing it

00:12:16   and you know no interference from

00:12:17   anything if you if you do you know if

00:12:21   you use it like in like a more realistic

00:12:22   location like in a town or on a highway

00:12:25   the mileage basically gets cut to a

00:12:28   tenth so it gets decimated right as what

00:12:30   that means and so yeah so it basically

00:12:32   gets you know so you're you're 37 mile

00:12:35   one is actually more like three miles

00:12:37   and and it's and even that is like you

00:12:40   know if you're in a really dense area

00:12:41   like you know in like a city with lots

00:12:43   of buildings and everything it might be

00:12:45   more like one mile you know or it may be

00:12:46   even a half mile in worst case scenario

00:12:48   for the for the thicker ones and there's

00:12:50   a limit on how powerful they can

00:12:53   transmit which I think most of the bands

00:12:55   is 2 watts so that's kind of what limits

00:12:57   like how powerful they can be but yeah

00:13:00   so it was fun it was totally worth it

00:13:02   and they're really you know modern

00:13:03   modern useful things like the like the

00:13:06   playback feature they both can charge by

00:13:08   a USB and or take double-a batteries or

00:13:11   you can put rechargeable batteries in

00:13:12   them and charge them through the USB

00:13:14   ports it's great so

00:13:16   uh John was wrong at the end so just for

00:13:19   the young people listening I want to

00:13:20   assure you that it actually is possible

00:13:21   to take a tandem car trips without

00:13:23   either cellphones for yeah but it sucks

00:13:27   it does suck I would agree with both of

00:13:29   you it's fun you have to make it come up

00:13:30   with systems for signalling and then get

00:13:32   frustrated while the people don't follow

00:13:33   the systems for signaling that's a John

00:13:35   statement if I've ever heard enough it's

00:13:39   like being a spy something like I put my

00:13:41   right hand out the window that means

00:13:44   pull over but my left hand out the

00:13:46   window that means merge alright we

00:13:49   should get to the actual topics for this

00:13:52   evening and something happened on

00:13:54   Tuesday and something something

00:13:55   education moving on let's finally get to

00:13:58   the topic we all want to get to which is

00:14:01   Apple's heyday

00:14:03   let's between you skip but now we're

00:14:07   gonna talk about today we're gonna go

00:14:08   through the event followed by a blog as

00:14:09   there wasn't that much to go through I

00:14:11   thought it was so funny because like

00:14:12   last week we as professional podcasters

00:14:15   completely failed to mention our WTC

00:14:18   live show and also that there was about

00:14:21   to be an Apple event that we all knew

00:14:22   about and we're like ooh but like

00:14:23   everyone else is doing predictions and

00:14:25   at least mentioning this is gonna happen

00:14:26   we completely failed to even mention it

00:14:29   I don't think we failed to because I

00:14:30   knew about it I just didn't think there

00:14:32   was anything worth saying on the last

00:14:33   show I think we talked about it

00:14:35   beforehand and like well you know we'll

00:14:37   see what they announce but until the

00:14:38   like I didn't have high expectations of

00:14:41   what they were gonna announce and so I

00:14:42   didn't really feel like it was worth

00:14:43   discussing until they announce something

00:14:46   I mean I didn't have high expectations

00:14:47   either and they even failed to meet

00:14:49   those I I thought like I thought it'd be

00:14:50   really funny if we just never mentioned

00:14:53   it at all because it was there was so

00:14:55   little really to it that but but

00:14:59   unfortunately John wants to talk about

00:15:01   it so we're gonna talk about it just

00:15:03   just pretend like we never actually

00:15:04   mentioned it and it's funnier that way a

00:15:06   lot of product mountains but I think

00:15:08   there are things to talk about though so

00:15:10   my first question is did you two

00:15:11   actually watch the event nope not live

00:15:14   but I because it was actually during the

00:15:15   road trip that I was taking but I

00:15:17   download the video and watched it that

00:15:18   night Kasey's pooh-poohing this event do

00:15:21   you even watch it they could have had

00:15:23   seven slides about you I have to admit I

00:15:25   also fast forwarded through some parts

00:15:27   of it because it you know what what I do

00:15:30   like about it overall it kind of made me

00:15:34   feel I don't it was a little bit

00:15:36   off-putting

00:15:37   it basically seemed like they were

00:15:39   holding an event to almost like yell at

00:15:43   the world like no look we care about

00:15:45   education but without actually backing

00:15:48   it up with what I consider to be enough

00:15:50   and and the we that could take lots of

00:15:52   different forms and you could disagree

00:15:53   or agree with that but I felt like the

00:15:55   the premise of an education event that

00:15:58   you know like that that's that even they

00:16:00   call the press out and everything and by

00:16:01   the way I if I if I was like an

00:16:05   independent journalist who flew out

00:16:07   there on my own dime to cover this I'd

00:16:08   be pretty annoyed honestly but anyway

00:16:11   and I'm friends with some of these

00:16:13   people and they haven't told me this

00:16:14   behind the scenes I'm just saying like

00:16:15   if I were one of these people like you

00:16:16   know that's I would I would be annoyed

00:16:18   that I had spent the time and money to

00:16:19   do this but the impression I got from

00:16:22   this event was that it was a lot of

00:16:25   cheerleading it was it was almost like a

00:16:27   pep rally for Apple and for teachers

00:16:30   hell accurate giving it was in a school

00:16:32   yeah right yeah but but without enough

00:16:35   substance I thought to back that up it

00:16:36   was it was really more like look at how

00:16:39   great we already are at the things that

00:16:41   we are already doing not so much here's

00:16:44   some you know new new software new

00:16:47   changes new hardware whatever it is like

00:16:48   there was actually very little of that

00:16:50   at least very little of relevance or of

00:16:52   significance and there was just a lot

00:16:55   more like here's how great we are here's

00:16:57   someone else to come out and tell you

00:16:59   how great we've been and how great were

00:17:01   going to keep being and it was it was

00:17:03   just it was a weird balance I just felt

00:17:06   almost taken it almost like my attention

00:17:08   was taken advantage of to get to the

00:17:12   product announcements know and like I

00:17:13   wasn't expecting like an iPhone or

00:17:15   anything like you know I knew that it

00:17:17   was a focused education event that's one

00:17:19   thing but if you look at like you know

00:17:21   what people would reasonably expect out

00:17:24   of a you know publicized press event

00:17:27   regarding Apple and education I would

00:17:30   have expected a lot more than what we

00:17:32   actually got some people were tweeting a

00:17:34   few and it was like at the 20 or 30

00:17:35   minute mark there

00:17:37   you know we're 20 minutes in and they

00:17:38   still haven't said anything about any

00:17:39   products yet you know there was like a

00:17:41   long lead-in and there was a long lead

00:17:43   out as well I so I I don't remember the

00:17:47   last education event but another thing

00:17:48   people were tweeting about was exactly

00:17:50   how long ago the last education event

00:17:52   was apparently they don't even have

00:17:54   these things every two or three years is

00:17:55   that there are long gaps we've to meet

00:17:57   between the events having a dedicated

00:17:59   education event Apple does stuff

00:18:01   education related all the time but

00:18:02   having a dedicated event for it doesn't

00:18:04   have a lot of time I think the last time

00:18:06   we talked about it these stats were

00:18:09   similar but I to frame this to like why

00:18:12   why is Apple having an education event

00:18:14   why are they spending an hour on stage

00:18:16   telling you about all the things that

00:18:18   Apple does related to education and

00:18:20   trying to make them seem to mark this

00:18:21   point as you know as as good as possible

00:18:24   seem desirable seem like that Apple is

00:18:27   doing great things in education this is

00:18:29   a quote from Bloomberg Bloomberg article

00:18:31   link in the show notes

00:18:32   Chromebooks accounted for 60% of laptops

00:18:34   tablet and other mobile computers

00:18:36   shipping to us K through 12 schools in

00:18:38   the third quarter of 2017 Apple's iPads

00:18:41   accounted for 12% of those school

00:18:42   devices which is less than half its

00:18:44   market share from 2014

00:18:45   so from 2014 to 2017 their market share

00:18:48   has been cut in half

00:18:49   more than cut in half so not only is

00:18:52   that Bowl not you know leading in market

00:18:57   share in this an education category they

00:18:59   were addressing here which is basically

00:19:00   a United States K through 12 schools not

00:19:03   only is you know Chromebooks eating your

00:19:06   lunch there but it's not as if that's

00:19:08   just the status quo it's like yeah well

00:19:10   you know the you know apples never had

00:19:12   big market share but they you know that

00:19:14   the important part in the in three years

00:19:16   their small market share has been cut in

00:19:19   half so if I were Apple and I cared

00:19:22   anything about education I would have to

00:19:24   be taking a hard look at this thing

00:19:26   should we get out of the education

00:19:28   market or should we do something

00:19:30   because unlike lots of other markets

00:19:32   where we have small market share but

00:19:34   it's steady and we you know reap most of

00:19:37   the profits right like the phone market

00:19:39   for example Apple does not dominate the

00:19:41   phone market market chair wise but I've

00:19:43   you know Apple is probably not crying

00:19:45   over that because they make so much

00:19:47   money on it and they are seen to have

00:19:49   you know

00:19:50   if not the best phone then one of the

00:19:52   best phones right and I don't think you

00:19:55   see a lot of article anymore saying

00:19:56   Apple needs to up its phone market chair

00:19:59   or they're gonna be doomed or you know

00:20:01   Android easy apples lunch in the phone

00:20:03   market just because the money talks

00:20:04   right look where all the money goes he

00:20:05   goes to Apple and also if Apple's phone

00:20:09   market share had been cut in half in the

00:20:11   last three years I think there'd be a

00:20:12   lot of more articles about that so I

00:20:15   feel like the the context for this event

00:20:18   is Apple trying to figure out how to

00:20:21   even just stay in the game and education

00:20:23   forget about here's how great we are but

00:20:25   just can you know is this a market where

00:20:28   we can or we can make a difference where

00:20:30   we can be a player where we can be

00:20:31   important and that got me thinking about

00:20:35   how the education market is different

00:20:38   from the phone market or the personal

00:20:39   computer market or the TV connected puck

00:20:41   market or the home cylinder that you

00:20:43   yell at market or whatever you know they

00:20:45   the the fancy computer watch market lots

00:20:48   of like plots in the modern era Apple

00:20:51   has been all about making tons of money

00:20:54   selling relatively high margin expensive

00:20:56   products to a minority of a market the

00:20:59   phone market is the best extensive that

00:21:01   of the example that does that make so

00:21:02   much money and their market share is so

00:21:05   small compared to the aggregate of all

00:21:08   their competitors which is always just

00:21:10   lump together it's like Apple and non

00:21:11   Apple basically Android and iOS but they

00:21:14   may just make so much money it's like

00:21:15   well this is a winning strategy we don't

00:21:17   really care we're not gonna worry that

00:21:20   oh we need to you know we need to make a

00:21:22   netbook remember the netbooks well cheap

00:21:24   laptops to compete with the PC space we

00:21:26   need to make a super cheap iPhone to

00:21:28   compete with Android

00:21:29   that's not how Apple plays the game they

00:21:33   want to sell to the best part of the

00:21:35   market best meaning the part that is the

00:21:37   most lucrative the part that allows

00:21:39   Apple to make the fanciest products

00:21:41   because that people will pay the highest

00:21:42   price the Nyhus margins and all that

00:21:44   Apple Apple's products look nice and

00:21:46   everything like that and I was thinking

00:21:48   about whether that strategy is viable in

00:21:53   education because as far as I can tell

00:21:56   Apple continues to essentially pursue

00:21:59   that in these past decade or so in

00:22:01   education

00:22:01   saying we're not going to have the

00:22:03   majority of the education market but

00:22:06   we'll have the quote-unquote best part

00:22:09   of the education market the richest

00:22:11   schools will buy apple stuff like I'm

00:22:13   trying to try to figure out what what

00:22:14   they're thinking that if you can afford

00:22:17   us we give you the best school

00:22:19   experience or it will seem the fanciest

00:22:22   if you buy Apple stuff and for some

00:22:25   reason when it comes to education that

00:22:28   rubs me the wrong way more so than smart

00:22:31   phones just because education I think of

00:22:33   more as a thing that has to be for

00:22:35   everybody

00:22:36   whereas smart phones there are options

00:22:40   and it's if you don't have an iPhone you

00:22:43   are not disadvantaged in life versus if

00:22:45   you have an Android phone right but if

00:22:46   you don't have an education or don't

00:22:48   have a good education or our education

00:22:50   is not as rich as someone else's that

00:22:52   feels you know inequitable to me and so

00:22:56   I'm watching this presentation and I'm

00:22:58   trying to figure out is Apple changing

00:23:01   course here are they saying we're we're

00:23:03   going to figure out how to let more

00:23:09   students get access to our products or

00:23:12   we still concentrating on providing the

00:23:16   best products for the few students who

00:23:19   are lucky enough to go to a stool school

00:23:20   that can afford them and the

00:23:23   presentation as I read it as someone who

00:23:26   is not you know I'm not involved in the

00:23:28   education system but I do have kids in

00:23:29   school seemed to me that they were not

00:23:32   changing their strategy that everything

00:23:34   they presented was beautifully polished

00:23:36   sort of very sort of high-end nice to

00:23:40   look at applications hardware and

00:23:43   software that a few schools are lucky

00:23:46   enough to have but that the pricing was

00:23:50   the same as it's ever been and that

00:23:54   nothing they announced is going to help

00:23:56   them compete with the things that are

00:23:59   currently eating their lunch in the

00:23:59   market not just on price but from what I

00:24:02   understand from people in education a

00:24:04   lot of the features they for the stuff

00:24:07   that Google's offers are better than the

00:24:09   features that Apple offers that's why

00:24:10   part of the announcements are yeah we

00:24:12   have

00:24:12   the new iPad but we also have a bunch of

00:24:16   new software that's playing catch-up to

00:24:18   our competitor to say oh here's the

00:24:19   easier way to manage a bunch of iPads

00:24:21   using an easier way for a teacher to

00:24:22   manage a bunch of students doing things

00:24:23   but even that even the catch-up software

00:24:26   I saw a lot of complaints saying okay

00:24:28   but you still haven't caught up entirely

00:24:29   to the functionality offered by Google

00:24:31   in terms of integrating into other

00:24:33   school system things and providing a

00:24:35   broader set of functionality which may

00:24:36   not be pretty and fancy and have like

00:24:39   the Apple pencil support and you know

00:24:41   high-end video production capabilities

00:24:44   so kids can make cool videos about

00:24:45   gravity and stuff but practically

00:24:47   speaking when it comes to you know

00:24:49   reading writing and arithmetic and the

00:24:51   basics of functioning in a school and

00:24:53   having a lot of students and a lot of

00:24:55   devices and managing it all but still

00:24:58   apples offerings aren't even the best

00:25:00   and they're certainly not the cheapest

00:25:02   so I'm kind of confused / concerned

00:25:06   about apples approach to education

00:25:08   because it seems to me that if they

00:25:11   really want to make a difference in this

00:25:12   market they need to pursue a different

00:25:15   strategy because I don't I don't think

00:25:16   it's appropriate to pursue a strategy

00:25:19   like they do in the consumer market in

00:25:21   education but you know maybe I'm wrong

00:25:23   about that I would love to hear from

00:25:24   people in education who have worked with

00:25:27   Apple and Google stuff about what what

00:25:28   how they perceive these competitors that

00:25:32   did people watch the education event in

00:25:34   you know people who are actually

00:25:36   teachers or school administrators and

00:25:38   think that Apple had done something

00:25:40   that's going to change the game or did

00:25:42   it just seem like more of the same I

00:25:44   thought Joseph Lenski had a few good

00:25:47   tweets about this and I'll probably

00:25:49   forget to put them in the show notes but

00:25:50   Joe used to be a I think he was an

00:25:54   English teacher from not mistaken

00:25:56   apologies if I have that wrong but now

00:25:58   he's an app developer and designer and

00:26:00   slash rock star but in any case you know

00:26:03   his take about it was you know look

00:26:06   Apple doesn't really play the you know

00:26:09   cheap game just like you're saying John

00:26:11   you know it's not apples card that they

00:26:13   play so are we really surprised that

00:26:15   this is the way this event turned out

00:26:17   and you know he and I went back and

00:26:19   forth a little bit and early in a happy

00:26:22   way or at least I thought it was happy

00:26:23   maybe he was annoyed at me but yeah we

00:26:25   went back and forth a little bit in the

00:26:26   thing

00:26:26   you know i-i've not worked in education

00:26:28   but Aaron was a teacher high school

00:26:31   teacher for a long time and in fact and

00:26:33   I think I've mentioned this a few times

00:26:34   on the show a few years ago actually

00:26:36   many years ago now there was national

00:26:39   news about like a stampede that happened

00:26:41   because I books were being sold for 50

00:26:43   bucks a pop at the Richmond

00:26:45   International Raceway and they were old

00:26:47   like high school I books that were being

00:26:49   retired and so they were selling them it

00:26:51   seen ly cheaply and people I got

00:26:53   trampled trying to buy these cheap

00:26:54   iBooks well that happened because of the

00:26:56   county in which we live it was our

00:26:58   County that was selling all those and so

00:27:01   Aaron when she was teaching the kids all

00:27:04   got issued Dells when they were when she

00:27:05   was teaching is just a yeah you're

00:27:08   getting a Dell was just a couple years

00:27:11   before that

00:27:11   that they were getting these iBooks etc

00:27:13   so having you know spoke and aaron about

00:27:16   this I mean again I'm still a little bit

00:27:19   removed from the actual decision-making

00:27:21   as was she but it seemed pretty clear to

00:27:24   me that even in a relatively affluent

00:27:29   area like we're in I mean or no like you

00:27:33   know a Greenwich County Connecticut or

00:27:35   anything like that but we're not you

00:27:37   know broke around these parts and even

00:27:40   here it's all about cost it's just a

00:27:43   hundred percent about cost and so yeah I

00:27:44   think you're right John that maybe the

00:27:46   apples play is hey if you happen to live

00:27:48   in a really rich area or if you go to

00:27:50   like a very well-to-do private school or

00:27:52   something like that then yeah we have

00:27:53   all sorts of sweet answers for you we

00:27:54   have a sweet solution for you but I

00:27:57   don't know of any like quote-unquote

00:28:01   regular school system that is going to

00:28:05   look at anything more than initial

00:28:07   purchase price

00:28:08   maybe maybe total cost of ownership

00:28:12   maybe but generally speaking it's gonna

00:28:14   be purchase price and the other thing

00:28:15   I've gleaned from Bradley chambers and

00:28:18   Fraser Spears and a few others is that

00:28:19   apparently the management stuff that

00:28:22   Google has is way better than what Apple

00:28:26   has it's not even in the ballpark now to

00:28:27   be fair you can supplement what Apple

00:28:29   does with like Jam for other other

00:28:30   third-party tools but it's just it seems

00:28:33   to be a lot more work and a lot more

00:28:34   money to use the Apple suite is that

00:28:37   worth it

00:28:38   maybe they

00:28:39   we painted from what I've gleaned from

00:28:40   not having watch the event he certainly

00:28:43   painted a pretty compelling pictures to

00:28:44   all the things you can do with iPads in

00:28:46   the classroom and so on and so forth but

00:28:48   I just don't see how that's a realistic

00:28:51   play for almost any general school

00:28:55   system in the world and if you're gonna

00:28:56   spend 330 dollars on mayo per kid on an

00:29:00   iPad I don't know I got to imagine in

00:29:03   aggregate that that adds up to a not and

00:29:05   not insignificant amount of money and

00:29:07   the first place I would put that is

00:29:09   teacher salaries because at least in

00:29:10   America salaries are just hilariously

00:29:13   just devastatingly small and it's absurd

00:29:16   how little teachers get paid here like

00:29:18   that's the other point that is less and

00:29:21   less mentioned I feel like in the modern

00:29:23   Apple era which is general skepticism

00:29:26   about whether the addition of technology

00:29:29   actually improves education to your

00:29:31   point Casey about maybe you've actually

00:29:33   paid teachers more that would improve

00:29:34   education more than buying all because a

00:29:36   laptop like there is there is a

00:29:37   technology angle that Apple can speak to

00:29:39   which is they have a very important

00:29:41   profitable platform that if things keep

00:29:43   going well will be a viable place for

00:29:46   children to make their living and so

00:29:50   teaching coding skills and just more

00:29:52   broadly teaching coding skills which is

00:29:53   the thing that Apple's familiar with

00:29:54   because they have a developer you know

00:29:56   they have developers they have developer

00:29:57   relations they have developer tools they

00:29:59   are well equipped to make an education

00:30:02   focused version of teaching people how

00:30:03   computer skills which i think is a

00:30:05   viable thing to learn in school right

00:30:07   and Apple has expertise there so welcome

00:30:09   Apple to the education they're teaching

00:30:11   you're teaching about something you know

00:30:11   but beyond that I feel like when I was a

00:30:14   kid there was much more skepticism about

00:30:16   whether having kids make a multimedia

00:30:19   presentation about gravity like in that

00:30:20   Cooper video for kids you know doing

00:30:23   this project and making slow-mo videos

00:30:25   and all their iOS devices and cutting it

00:30:27   together and making animations and doing

00:30:28   all that looks fun seems expensive and

00:30:32   especially like these you know

00:30:33   incredibly high production values that

00:30:35   these for the things they do in these

00:30:37   little promotional videos but does that

00:30:39   actually improve education like there's

00:30:42   enrichment and there is getting kids

00:30:44   engaged with technology and there's

00:30:46   having the advantage to do something a

00:30:47   little bit different every once in a

00:30:48   while but I think the vision presented

00:30:52   by

00:30:52   all of that like all kids are doing

00:30:54   creative multimedia digital things all

00:30:56   the time

00:30:57   is not representative of like the

00:31:00   broader effort to educate like and those

00:31:03   are the the most fun parts and you can

00:31:05   make learning fun with the addition of

00:31:07   Technology but you can make learning fun

00:31:09   with the addition of you know just

00:31:12   sitting in a circle and and talking to

00:31:14   each other and you know or just going on

00:31:16   a field trip like there is it just seems

00:31:19   to me that that Apple seems uninterested

00:31:22   in what will actually make education

00:31:26   better and more interested in how can we

00:31:33   make education better with our products

00:31:35   and I'm not entirely sure their products

00:31:39   make education better in a way that is

00:31:43   worth the money spent on not all these

00:31:45   people's like Oh school shouldn't have

00:31:47   computers or anything like that it just

00:31:48   it just seems to me that like that

00:31:51   learning is not linked to the technology

00:31:54   involved right that you can learn all

00:31:58   the same things in exciting engaging

00:32:00   ways without having computers involved

00:32:05   at all that's of course you're learning

00:32:06   about computers which again that's the

00:32:08   angle that Apple has expertise on and

00:32:09   they're they're wise to to lean on it

00:32:11   like learning to code and then there's

00:32:13   tough play grants a lot of stuff but if

00:32:14   you're not learning about computers

00:32:15   computers may help you typewriters may

00:32:18   help you

00:32:19   Slate's may help you pencils and lined

00:32:21   paper might help you but in the end the

00:32:23   learning part it seems much more that

00:32:25   there are so many other much bigger

00:32:27   factors starting with just like

00:32:29   temperature control and safety all the

00:32:32   way up to class size and teachers that

00:32:34   are not you know stressed out and are

00:32:37   not underpaid and overworked and you

00:32:39   know just you know curriculum that suits

00:32:43   the students different learning

00:32:44   strategies special help for the kids who

00:32:47   need it like there's so many more things

00:32:48   that are more important to me than

00:32:50   whether my kids have the latest iPad or

00:32:53   Android devices or whatever you know so

00:32:55   I'm and and I'm not saying that Apple

00:32:58   it's apples job to solve education it's

00:33:00   problem is just that I didn't even see a

00:33:02   faint in that direction or a nod or an

00:33:05   understand

00:33:05   to the fact that the most important

00:33:08   thing in the classroom has nothing to do

00:33:10   with technology that's there because

00:33:11   they're there to sell you the technology

00:33:13   and that that's what I found that and

00:33:14   and my work concerned about the the fact

00:33:17   that this trade isn't students to be

00:33:18   changing made me think that Apple is on

00:33:21   the wrong track with its education

00:33:23   strategy and that that if they continue

00:33:25   to pursue it they're not going to turn

00:33:27   around the their market share slide and

00:33:30   and also like again having two kids in

00:33:33   school it didn't make me think boy I

00:33:36   wish my kids had access to two iPads and

00:33:38   Apple laptops it just didn't you know

00:33:40   like that I don't I don't have any

00:33:43   desire for that at all for my kids I

00:33:45   want my kids to you know learn and enjoy

00:33:48   school and learn that the the you know

00:33:50   the the things that are supposed to

00:33:52   learn the social skills like to have a

00:33:54   good school experience I have no desires

00:33:57   whatsoever about the technology that

00:33:58   using I don't care if they use any

00:33:59   technology unless they're interested in

00:34:01   technology unless you're taking a course

00:34:02   in technology and even then I don't care

00:34:04   if they teach the kids Pascal teach them

00:34:05   C++ teach them scheme like I don't I

00:34:08   don't care if they're learning Swift or

00:34:10   iOS program or anything like that so I

00:34:13   don't know I'm maybe I'm overly grumpy

00:34:15   about this I mean I I think you bring up

00:34:18   a lot of really good points because you

00:34:19   know I think maybe one of the reasons

00:34:22   this event kind of rubbed me the wrong

00:34:24   way is is similar to what you were just

00:34:25   saying about how it seems like Apple

00:34:28   more just wants to like yell at us about

00:34:32   why they're why they don't have to

00:34:34   change much of anything why their

00:34:35   existing stuff can just be shoved right

00:34:37   in there and be a perfect fit and and I

00:34:40   think there over time the the compelling

00:34:43   Nisour the or the fit of what they're

00:34:46   trying to put into this into this

00:34:48   category versus what these customers

00:34:50   actually need and want is diverging it's

00:34:53   it's not getting closer over time it's

00:34:55   getting worse over time like the way I

00:34:57   see it from both you know reading and

00:34:59   listening to school workers who are like

00:35:03   also writers in tech or podcasters I'm

00:35:06   also from friends and family I know who

00:35:08   who work in education some of them

00:35:10   teachers from the administrators it

00:35:12   seems like what schools ultimately want

00:35:14   is inexpensive durable laptops and

00:35:19   enterprise siyul management tools and

00:35:21   services to back them to make it easier

00:35:23   to manage Apple seems to me like they're

00:35:26   losing this on three pretty major fronts

00:35:29   price is obviously a big one like you

00:35:32   know they they are losing on price not

00:35:34   by as much as some people think if you

00:35:35   like look at you know you know I've had

00:35:37   as being the solution if you look at

00:35:39   laptops as being the solution that they

00:35:41   lose big they also seem to be losing

00:35:43   with you know just kind of this is kind

00:35:45   of the wrong product I think like and we

00:35:47   had this argument a lot in in you know

00:35:49   our regular you know tech beat of is the

00:35:51   iPad a good enough computer for various

00:35:53   people for various things and ultimately

00:35:56   I think while you could make the some

00:35:58   really nice marketing videos about how

00:36:00   cool would be if kids used iPads and to

00:36:02   you know rediscover things like you know

00:36:05   music and robots and stuff that's not

00:36:07   what most kids need most of the time in

00:36:09   most classes what they mostly need is

00:36:11   laptops and you can and so what what

00:36:15   Apple is trying to sell the schools on

00:36:16   is no look yes our laptops are way too

00:36:18   expensive for what you're looking for

00:36:21   so instead although they still saw a lot

00:36:22   of anyway but instead you should be

00:36:25   looking at the iPad that's why we don't

00:36:26   meet to make a lamp at any cheaper

00:36:27   because the future is the iPad and you

00:36:29   can just bolt on all of these clunky

00:36:32   expensive accessories that raise the

00:36:34   price even further because you're not

00:36:36   gonna use that iPad at 3:29 or $2.99

00:36:39   you're gonna have to add a case of some

00:36:42   kind to protect it because it's way too

00:36:44   fragile just give to kids naked you can

00:36:45   even have two adults naked so you gotta

00:36:48   get some kind of case it's probably

00:36:50   gonna want some kind of keyboard for a

00:36:51   lot of things that needs or for

00:36:53   standardized test requirements or things

00:36:54   like that so that's why they had this

00:36:55   Logitech case it has this you know

00:36:57   special keyboard and everything and so

00:36:59   you're adding you have to add on all

00:37:00   these accessories now they want you to

00:37:02   buy a pencil or the logitech kram which

00:37:03   is interesting they say you know they

00:37:05   want you to add on even more stuff to it

00:37:06   to make it into what you want all that

00:37:09   drives with the price and the complexity

00:37:10   and the clunkiness of the solution so

00:37:12   it's very possible and I think likely

00:37:14   that they're actually selling schools

00:37:16   the wrong product what schools actually

00:37:17   want is inexpensive durable laptops and

00:37:20   then the third problem which I don't see

00:37:23   them probably ever fixing is that you

00:37:27   know if you talk to an administrator who

00:37:29   or a teacher who runs the Google G

00:37:32   Suites

00:37:33   or to an IT manager who runs the fleets

00:37:36   of these things the G suite management

00:37:39   tools are really good like that it like

00:37:41   it is an entire like enterprise

00:37:43   management platform and all these web

00:37:46   services with Google Docs and and all

00:37:49   this stuff that's really good and Apple

00:37:53   I don't think is ever going to do well

00:37:56   in that kind of environment that's not

00:37:58   in their DNA to make enterprise fleet

00:38:00   management things very very well or to

00:38:03   make cloud document platforms very well

00:38:05   they try but not very hard and it's

00:38:07   never very competitive and when you

00:38:10   compare like I wanted to I laughed so

00:38:13   hard they made a little a quick little

00:38:14   remark about how when the iPad how it

00:38:17   supports multiple users only in a school

00:38:20   environment and the presenter said you

00:38:23   can change users in under a minute to

00:38:30   switch users on a component PC or a Mac

00:38:32   it wasn't even change users it was you

00:38:34   could log out and be ready for someone

00:38:36   else to log in like they were just they

00:38:38   were touting to log on I think the login

00:38:39   time could potentially be worse because

00:38:41   it does what it does under the cover is

00:38:42   it's not like it's not like they're

00:38:44   using the multi user features of an

00:38:46   annoying operating system is it's just

00:38:47   like a single user iPad that they swap

00:38:49   in and out by shuffling stuff around

00:38:51   it's not like multiple accounts in the

00:38:52   Mac there they're like tearing down the

00:38:54   entire user space tearing down all

00:38:55   springboard swapping in various like

00:38:57   directories and files and then bringing

00:38:59   the whole thing back up it's basically

00:39:00   it's even more complex than a reboot

00:39:03   what they're doing it's because these

00:39:06   because these devices are not made for

00:39:08   this at all like that like you know if

00:39:10   you want that kind of thing you need

00:39:12   you know networked pcs and macs like

00:39:13   iPads are so not made for multi-user and

00:39:16   they're not willing to change iOS and

00:39:18   major ways to fix that they're only

00:39:20   willing to do like that was kind of like

00:39:21   minor lip service stuff so you know if

00:39:23   you look at like Apple education their

00:39:25   history they they were always kind of

00:39:28   like the the fancy expensive ones that

00:39:30   you'd have a few of in the schools I've

00:39:32   I think very I was in school long before

00:39:34   any kind of one-to-one program so maybe

00:39:35   that's different now but you Apple did

00:39:38   well it when it was Mac's only when they

00:39:41   weren't trying to split their consumer

00:39:44   computing ideal into these two very

00:39:46   different

00:39:46   platforms of Mac and iPad so when

00:39:49   there's just one platform for them to

00:39:50   focus on and in a world where that

00:39:53   platform could basically be an island it

00:39:55   was like here is a really nice desktop

00:39:57   that you can use to edit videos and do

00:39:59   desktop publishing on they were really

00:40:01   good at that but today you have large

00:40:04   fleets of these you know always

00:40:07   networked strongly Web Services based

00:40:10   application platforms and enterprise

00:40:12   management tools and Apple just doesn't

00:40:15   do that nearly as well or nearly as

00:40:18   competitively as Google and Microsoft

00:40:21   and other and other PC vendors that that

00:40:24   have you know tools for schools and

00:40:25   stuff I don't see that really ever

00:40:28   changing Apple is not that good at web

00:40:30   services they're not that good at

00:40:31   enterprise management tools they're in

00:40:33   in all the other areas of their business

00:40:35   they're actually pulling away from that

00:40:37   so and and I like I also even questioned

00:40:41   like if you're you know back in the

00:40:42   olden days there was always that thing

00:40:44   like you know what no one gets fired for

00:40:46   for buying IBM if you're an IT

00:40:49   administrator at a school and you are

00:40:52   tasked with this site with making this

00:40:54   kind of decision of like do you do you

00:40:55   invest heavily in the Apple platform or

00:40:58   in G suite would you trust knowing

00:41:01   today's Apple knowing how they do

00:41:04   services how how they maintain

00:41:07   applications over time would you trust

00:41:10   building your school out on like class

00:41:13   kid and the classroom or school work

00:41:15   whatever it's called like all that stuff

00:41:16   would you trust that to actually be not

00:41:19   only bug free when it ships not today

00:41:21   when it ships sometime in the future

00:41:23   would you trust that to be stable enough

00:41:25   and more importantly would you trust

00:41:27   that to be maintained and supported over

00:41:30   a reasonable amount of time I think

00:41:33   that's a huge risk for an IT

00:41:34   administrator to take I think that's way

00:41:36   too high of a risk knowing the way Apple

00:41:38   does things these days and knowing how

00:41:41   seemingly stable and already well

00:41:45   developed and well established that

00:41:46   competing platforms are in these regards

00:41:47   I don't see this being a really good

00:41:50   decision for an IT administrator pretty

00:41:52   much anywhere that gives me back to my

00:41:55   earlier point like this this is this

00:41:57   enterprise software for school so I can

00:41:59   enterprise software and

00:42:00   definitions like software where the

00:42:02   person you have to sell it to is not the

00:42:03   person who has to use it and there's two

00:42:05   angles in that the one that we already

00:42:06   talked about which is like management of

00:42:08   large devices in in a world where you

00:42:11   can actually conceive of one to one

00:42:12   program is where every student gets one

00:42:14   device like that was not even in a

00:42:15   twinkle in anyone's eye when I was in

00:42:17   school it was like you had a computer

00:42:18   lab with like six computers in it for

00:42:19   the whole school yeah and they're all

00:42:21   Apple two's by the way not Mac's but

00:42:23   that enterprise management thing like

00:42:26   some of the people who watch this event

00:42:27   I could see on Twitter were from that

00:42:29   camp like a saying okay Apple I have a

00:42:31   problem my problem is I have lots of

00:42:33   students I have lots of devices and

00:42:34   dealing with them is difficult you gotta

00:42:36   keep track of them all you got to keep

00:42:37   them all up-to-date you gotta manage

00:42:38   them all tell me Apple how you're going

00:42:40   to make my job as an enterprise school

00:42:43   administer easy that is enterprise

00:42:45   software in both the good and bad senses

00:42:47   and I tend to look at the bad sense this

00:42:49   is the bad sense is say Apple or Google

00:42:51   or anybody makes these school

00:42:54   administrators lives easier and gives

00:42:56   them an easy way to manage large fleets

00:42:58   of devices I as a parent or as an and as

00:43:01   a journal citizen interested in the

00:43:03   education the country thinks okay but

00:43:05   does every student having devices make

00:43:08   their education better like I don't care

00:43:11   how easy it is for you school

00:43:12   administrator to manage the devices like

00:43:14   I understand that's what that's how they

00:43:16   sell it to you I understand that's why

00:43:17   you're choosing because you want

00:43:18   something that can do all the things you

00:43:19   want to hook into your back-end system

00:43:21   that keeps track of all your students

00:43:22   you want to be able to you know but I'm

00:43:25   not that interested in how easy it is

00:43:26   for you to do your job the whole point

00:43:27   of the school is education is it better

00:43:30   for the kids for everyone to have these

00:43:33   devices does does the device that the

00:43:35   kids get is there a difference to them

00:43:37   or is there no difference like do the

00:43:39   kids care if they have a Chromebook or

00:43:41   the Apple stuff does it make a

00:43:42   difference to their education

00:43:43   just like at all do they you know so

00:43:46   that that's my question and the second

00:43:48   thing is that I worry about is like the

00:43:51   other constituency the that is not the

00:43:54   students that Apple appeals to just in

00:43:58   general but in education is regardless

00:44:02   of how hard it is to manage the devices

00:44:05   right I feel like there is still and you

00:44:10   know maybe this is actually increased in

00:44:11   the recent decade some cachet

00:44:14   for a school to say our kids have iPads

00:44:18   or have MacBook Air as we going back a

00:44:19   little bit in time or you know have

00:44:21   Apple devices that if if some1 was

00:44:25   touring to schools to think of buying a

00:44:28   house in the neighborhood and this is

00:44:29   the neighborhood school your kid would

00:44:30   go to or if it's a private school or

00:44:31   whatever and you have Apple Hardware

00:44:33   everywhere that makes the school seem

00:44:36   better because Apple thanks to its

00:44:38   marketing and the general high quality

00:44:39   of its products in the consumer around

00:44:41   the scene is a premium brand and as like

00:44:44   as it's fancy right and so the parents

00:44:46   go all the kids here have iPads again

00:44:49   did the parents actually think if they

00:44:52   sat down to think about well our iPads

00:44:53   going to make my child's school

00:44:55   experience better than having one more

00:44:58   teacher and making the class sizes

00:44:59   smaller our iPads gonna make my kids

00:45:03   educational experience better than if

00:45:04   they had Chromebooks they're not even

00:45:07   thinking about you're just thinking all

00:45:09   the kids in this school every school has

00:45:10   an iBook right that's why people are

00:45:12   making that Stampede for the 50 other

00:45:13   iBooks because Apple you know makes

00:45:15   fancy nice devices that most people

00:45:17   usually can't afford and if you can

00:45:19   suddenly get them for 50 bucks

00:45:20   it's like there's a rush on that because

00:45:22   there is a perceived value of perceived

00:45:25   coolness cash a marketing value whatever

00:45:28   like status for Apple devices so if you

00:45:31   can get them cheap all of a sudden

00:45:32   people want to get them because they

00:45:33   want a piece of that and that bothers me

00:45:35   in education too because I don't want to

00:45:36   pick schools based on how fancy the

00:45:39   hardware is it's like picking schools

00:45:40   based on like you know mahogany railings

00:45:45   on the stairs I mean there is something

00:45:46   to be said for schools that look fancy

00:45:48   and feel nice and everything but as far

00:45:51   as education goes like through the kids

00:45:52   care that the railings are mahogany like

00:45:54   beyond a mint beyond a minimum level of

00:45:56   school upkeep and temperature control

00:45:58   and safety and you know not you know

00:46:00   pumping carbon monoxide into the

00:46:01   building because the furnace is old like

00:46:03   obviously they can get bad but once you

00:46:05   get into sort of the competent realm I'm

00:46:07   much less interested in that stuff and

00:46:09   then I am about all the other much more

00:46:12   important aspects of the school and I

00:46:15   even if Apple was massive you know take

00:46:18   Google Google seems to be very

00:46:19   successful at appealing to people who

00:46:21   are Enterprise administrators but I

00:46:23   continue to wonder in a school where the

00:46:25   enterprise administrators currently in a

00:46:26   workplace where the enterprise

00:46:27   traitors their job is awesome and they

00:46:30   love their vendor do their end users

00:46:32   love the product do the teachers love

00:46:33   the product the students love the

00:46:35   practice it actually make their

00:46:36   education better I don't know I have a

00:46:38   real crisis of faith about technology

00:46:40   and education I guess so it feels to me

00:46:44   having not actually watched this

00:46:45   particular event but based on all of the

00:46:48   recaps that I've read it feels to me

00:46:52   like this was I forget which one of you

00:46:54   said I think was Marco this was a pep

00:46:56   rally for Apple but it was it was Apple

00:47:00   trying to say hey you should consider us

00:47:04   despite us in other words you know

00:47:07   there's so many there are so many things

00:47:09   that we don't do the way you want us to

00:47:11   do it but you know what there's some

00:47:13   other stuff that's really cool and I

00:47:16   guess there's a couple of ways to look

00:47:18   at that right like you could look at

00:47:19   that as Apple is obnoxious and full of

00:47:22   themselves and oh of course we'll still

00:47:24   Thun see and look at us and our fancy

00:47:26   iPads and our a are and but I don't

00:47:29   really take it that way at all I took it

00:47:31   as hey look we aspire we genuinely

00:47:34   aspire to make a engaging interesting

00:47:40   enlightening and and diverse in terms of

00:47:44   experienced educational like not event

00:47:50   but you know we want education be

00:47:51   interesting basically and and here's a

00:47:54   way that we are or several ways that we

00:47:56   are enabling that in making education

00:47:58   interesting and making the education

00:48:02   part a relatively frictionless now the

00:48:06   penalty is that the poor school

00:48:08   administrators gonna pay for that

00:48:10   tenfold but for the teacher and the

00:48:12   student if you believe what apples if

00:48:15   you buy what Apple selling literally and

00:48:16   figuratively

00:48:17   then it's reasonably frictionless right

00:48:20   so you should consider this because we

00:48:22   are like the aspirational version of

00:48:24   Education that all of us really want

00:48:26   aren't we you should really look at us

00:48:28   despite the fact that we're way too

00:48:29   expensive and way too difficult to work

00:48:32   with and that's how I took the event

00:48:35   again not having seen it I took it as

00:48:37   look we're here you know

00:48:39   knock-knock-knock we're here

00:48:41   we we do cool stuff and if you really

00:48:44   want to get your kids engaged maybe try

00:48:47   us because no kid today wants the laptop

00:48:50   anymore I mean maybe that's what they

00:48:52   need I mean I know you said that earlier

00:48:53   market although I challenge I'm not

00:48:54   entirely sure why I mean my gut says

00:48:57   yeah they of course I need laptops but

00:48:58   then I asked myself well why I'm not

00:49:04   here to have that argument at this

00:49:05   particular moment it doesn't really

00:49:07   matter in the grand scheme of things but

00:49:08   everyone says iPads are like everyone's

00:49:10   gonna be doing tablets in the future and

00:49:12   cuz because my kid loves tablets and

00:49:13   doesn't order laptop is and so hey wait

00:49:15   till your kid is a little bit older and

00:49:16   then like you know how many kids get to

00:49:18   be under high school without without

00:49:19   having or wanting a laptop yeah yeah III

00:49:22   agree with you but all I'm saying is

00:49:24   there's the obnoxious Apple hubris way

00:49:27   of looking at this which is we are so

00:49:29   much better than everyone else because

00:49:31   look at how cool we are and then there's

00:49:33   the more humble hey man we're cool too

00:49:36   right like check us out we were worth at

00:49:38   least considering and that's how I took

00:49:40   the event but in the end of the day it

00:49:42   all come well not all but generally

00:49:45   speaking and this is what Solinsky and I

00:49:47   were kind of going back and forth about

00:49:49   in general it all comes down to money

00:49:51   and it's just too damn expensive we are

00:49:54   sponsored this week by aftershokz bone

00:49:56   conduction headphones visit ATP

00:49:58   aftershocks calm to learn more bone

00:50:01   conduction delivers music through your

00:50:03   cheek bones ensuring your ears remain

00:50:05   completely open to hear the sounds

00:50:08   around you the aftershocks new Trek's

00:50:10   air weighs just one ounce that has a

00:50:13   full titanium wraparound band you barely

00:50:15   even notice that it's on the open ear

00:50:18   design eliminates ear fatigue caused by

00:50:20   ear buds or shoved in your ears and

00:50:21   their ip55 certified to repel sweat dust

00:50:25   and moisture whether you're working out

00:50:27   or just walking in the rain you are

00:50:28   totally fine the aftershocks Trek's

00:50:30   titanium and the Trek's air are I just

00:50:33   love these things I've had them both now

00:50:34   I had the Trek's titanium for months and

00:50:37   on upgrades the Trek's air when that

00:50:38   came out these are wonderful little

00:50:40   headphones because they can fit in a

00:50:42   pocket and they're not earbuds that are

00:50:44   way more comfortable on me and because

00:50:47   of their design where they leave your

00:50:48   ears open you hear everything around you

00:50:51   so I love when I'm walking outside

00:50:53   because that way I can hear things

00:50:55   like cars or even just if people walk by

00:50:57   and they say hello I can hear that and I

00:50:59   can respond like a human being instead

00:51:00   of being my weird little isolated

00:51:01   you know walking person with headphones

00:51:03   it's really really nice go to a tepee

00:51:07   aftershocks calm to learn more and you

00:51:10   can use code a tepee 30 to get $30 off

00:51:13   the treks air once again a tepee

00:51:16   aftershocks calm and use code a tepee 30

00:51:18   to get $30 off the wonderful trucks air

00:51:20   bone conduction headphones I love these

00:51:22   things you will too

00:51:23   thank you so much to aftershocks for

00:51:25   sponsoring our show now we haven't

00:51:31   really talked about the actual product

00:51:33   announcement that happened during this

00:51:35   event so product we should yeah a

00:51:38   product which I mean to be fair I I

00:51:41   don't think anyone should have really

00:51:44   expected more than this I think we

00:51:45   overall myself included aspirationally

00:51:48   hoping for more than just a new iPad but

00:51:50   realistically this is what the tea

00:51:53   leaves were showing so yeah Marco tell

00:51:55   us about this new iPad so it is updated

00:51:58   guts for the actually you know

00:52:01   interesting one that they released last

00:52:02   year without an event at all so who is

00:52:05   the the last last spring about a year

00:52:07   ago they released the inexpensive nine

00:52:10   point seven inch iPad for 329 built with

00:52:14   old parts basically to make that cheaper

00:52:16   and you know it's kind of like the like

00:52:19   the way the iPhone se is kind of like

00:52:20   built with old parts on the iPhone end

00:52:22   to make that cheaper it's basically the

00:52:24   ipad SE it they basically kind of remade

00:52:27   the ipad air one with modern guts so it

00:52:32   doesn't have some of the niceties and

00:52:33   then so this the the news now is that

00:52:36   they have now updated that model and by

00:52:38   the way I think that model is almost

00:52:40   single-handedly responsible for the

00:52:42   turnaround in iPad sales I think the

00:52:45   numbers show from the analyst and stuff

00:52:46   that iPad sales went up starting with

00:52:49   this model because it turns out when you

00:52:52   drop the price of the entry-level model

00:52:54   to a lineup a lot more people want to

00:52:57   buy it so they can learn a lot from the

00:52:59   laptop line anyway that whoever's point

00:53:01   it was before kids do love iPads like oh

00:53:04   yeah they're young kids all episode

00:53:05   there there was always

00:53:07   an appetite to desire for iPads but

00:53:09   you're not gonna buy a $600 iPad for a

00:53:11   toddler so you but a $300 one starts to

00:53:15   get into the realm of possibility yeah

00:53:17   exactly so anyway so this they

00:53:19   introduced this this you know lower

00:53:20   price point for the entry-level iPad

00:53:22   last year and it sold very well and then

00:53:24   now they've updated it with newer newer

00:53:26   components it it is now roughly the guts

00:53:30   of an iPhone 7 in most important ways

00:53:35   just in like an iPad size case with an

00:53:38   iPad size screen it is not the nicest

00:53:41   screen it's it's like it's basically

00:53:43   like an iPad air one kind of screen so

00:53:46   it doesn't have the clothes lamination

00:53:47   of the screen to the glass you could

00:53:48   there's like a small visible gap I mean

00:53:51   it's not that big on that topic I would

00:53:53   love to know if someone knows that

00:53:55   increases repair ability because that's

00:53:56   all I could think of it's like one of

00:53:57   these laminated screen maybe it's

00:53:58   because if students drop it they can

00:54:00   replace the top class without replacing

00:54:02   the screen or maybe I'm wrong about it

00:54:03   so someone the Genius Bar let us know

00:54:05   that's an interesting thought I mean I

00:54:07   figured it just for cost you know and

00:54:08   for segmentation because see I think one

00:54:11   of the issues I have with this oh yeah

00:54:12   anyway if you go down the specs there's

00:54:14   not a lot of differences between this

00:54:17   and the 10.5 inch iPad pro there are

00:54:19   some and and they might be big for you

00:54:21   but it's actually not hugely different

00:54:25   and it's half the price of the iPad so

00:54:30   that you know there are some differences

00:54:31   and again they they might they may

00:54:33   matter to you and as a friend Federico

00:54:35   keeps you pointed out the new cheap iPad

00:54:38   does not have the promotion 120 Hertz

00:54:41   refresh rate does not have the P 3 wide

00:54:43   color true tone a smart connector for

00:54:46   the keyboard and then the camera is not

00:54:48   as good does not have image

00:54:50   stabilization does not shoot 4k video

00:54:51   and it only has first-generation touch

00:54:53   ID it does now support the Apple pencil

00:54:57   which is interesting I don't know how

00:55:01   much that's going to matter in practice

00:55:03   because it leads not for schools

00:55:05   I can't imagine Apple push and that's so

00:55:08   hard by the way it's like the pencil

00:55:09   support every one of the slot the whole

00:55:11   visual theme of the show was things

00:55:14   drawn with the Apple pencil every slide

00:55:15   every like it was very consistent

00:55:18   beautiful drawings as always with Apple

00:55:19   beautiful presentation

00:55:20   they were leaning heavily on the pencil

00:55:22   but the pencil of course is a hundred

00:55:24   extra dollars that's speaking you know

00:55:26   that's why people talk about the iPad so

00:55:27   you have the iPad then you got fifty two

00:55:29   hundred dollars for a case one hundred

00:55:31   dollars for the pencil and the crayon

00:55:32   was half the price but it doesn't do

00:55:34   tilt it just doesn't do pressure just as

00:55:36   tilt and touch the Logitech crayon is

00:55:38   interesting it's like if they if they

00:55:40   would sell that separately and if it

00:55:42   would work with regular iPads it doesn't

00:55:45   so it so it only works with this one it

00:55:48   doesn't work with the iPad pros and it

00:55:51   is only sold to the education Channel so

00:55:54   like you can't just go in Apple common

00:55:55   order one which is unfortunate because

00:55:57   it is a it is it's like logitech's it's

00:56:00   Logitech's device that is really an

00:56:02   Apple pencil inside it has the same

00:56:04   benefits the pencil

00:56:05   except for does not have pressure

00:56:07   sensitivity but I know a lot of people

00:56:09   who buy that and it's like a little bit

00:56:11   more ergonomic it has a button like

00:56:13   there's like it's actually kind of

00:56:15   better in some ways I mean you know it

00:56:17   doesn't look as nice and everything but

00:56:18   honestly I would probably have bought

00:56:20   one of those if it working the iPad pro

00:56:21   but people can't use it without the

00:56:23   pressure sensitivity though like I

00:56:24   continued to think that the Apple pencil

00:56:25   I mean the a pencil is great and all but

00:56:27   I think it's just too expensive like

00:56:29   maybe for the pro models it's like who

00:56:31   cares but it just I really wish there

00:56:33   was a pencil for less than $100 yeah and

00:56:36   and it's and it really does have a few

00:56:38   pretty annoying design flaws

00:56:40   I don't like Mike made the case on

00:56:42   connected this past week that we all

00:56:44   made fun of it how like you can charge

00:56:46   it by sticking it up the butt of the

00:56:47   iPad and it looks really funny but he

00:56:50   made the case that that's you know

00:56:52   actually a good thing in practice and

00:56:54   that's fine

00:56:55   I think the epic lens has lots of design

00:56:57   problems it you know it has the issue of

00:56:58   it's you know there's nothing to grip on

00:57:01   it it is a little bit too big and a

00:57:03   little bit too heavy it the battery life

00:57:05   is not good enough and because there is

00:57:08   no power switch it just the battery is

00:57:11   constantly draining itself if you're

00:57:12   like carrying it in a bag and it's in

00:57:13   motion or using the iPad without using

00:57:15   the pencil and of course there's nowhere

00:57:17   to put it on the iPad or around the iPad

00:57:19   there's lots of problems that pencil has

00:57:21   the logitech crayon solves some of those

00:57:24   and it's kind of a shame that you have

00:57:26   to rely on that that like you know Apple

00:57:29   doesn't like stooped down to the level

00:57:31   of making something ergonomic with a

00:57:32   button on it even though that would

00:57:33   actually

00:57:34   get a better product in some ways but

00:57:35   anyway go match this iPad the stuff it's

00:57:39   a really good deal like it's a you get

00:57:41   you're getting a lot for this and if

00:57:44   anything I think it really highlights

00:57:46   how incredibly expensive the iPad pro is

00:57:49   for what you're getting there like to

00:57:52   get a decently equipped one of these

00:57:53   which we'll get to in a little while you

00:57:55   know you're looking at you know 400

00:57:56   bucks you know once you throw in

00:57:58   accessories maybe more with the iPad pro

00:58:00   you're looking at about 800 and it's

00:58:02   really it's you're getting four for

00:58:06   double the price you're getting a nicer

00:58:09   and slightly larger screen the smart

00:58:13   connector but gives you the opportunity

00:58:14   to spend another 200 hours on the

00:58:16   keyboard and a little bit better camera

00:58:18   which a lot of people don't use or don't

00:58:19   care about on the iPad so it's like if

00:58:22   the difference that you're getting is

00:58:23   and it's not I don't think it's a twice

00:58:27   the price difference to go from this to

00:58:29   the iPad pro and okay and this is only

00:58:32   gonna be for a few months because

00:58:33   presumably in June they're probably

00:58:35   going to update the iPad pro to make it

00:58:36   even better but I do think this kind of

00:58:39   this kind of illustrates quite how

00:58:42   expensive the iPad pro is compared to

00:58:46   how expensive it needs to be because

00:58:48   this shows what they can do with your at

00:58:50   3:29

00:58:50   this iPad feels a little bit chancy to

00:58:53   me though like I understand it's got to

00:58:55   be a cut-down model like it makes sense

00:58:57   that in the product line I think they

00:58:58   should have a cheap iPad setting aside

00:59:00   to get educate setting aside education

00:59:01   just just for regular people right but

00:59:03   some of the cheeping out like I I've

00:59:06   complained about this before I really

00:59:08   wish Apple would make less expensive

00:59:12   products that were not merely old parts

00:59:16   or old like a purpose-built product to

00:59:20   hit a much lower price point like in

00:59:23   this case the one that really burns me

00:59:24   is touch ID ii not doesn't have 2nd gen

00:59:27   touch ID because that just feels like

00:59:29   you're being is like come on like I

00:59:31   understand I understand I don't need P 3

00:59:33   color gamut I don't need promotion like

00:59:35   true tone yeah maybe smart connector

00:59:37   okay maybe that's like a feature that

00:59:39   schools don't want or whatever camera

00:59:40   sure by all means cheap out but the

00:59:42   touch ID you unlock it like it just it

00:59:45   just it's like everything like we can't

00:59:47   have

00:59:47   we can have any nice things it's like as

00:59:49   if Apple was selling cheaper to imagine

00:59:52   Apple sold lots of Mac's if they were

00:59:53   selling cheaper Mac's with USB 2 in them

00:59:56   still right and it'd be like come on a

00:59:57   certain point USB 2 isn't it more

00:59:59   expensive