ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► - Marco, you still have a Tesla?

00:00:01 ◼   ► - I do still have a Tesla.

00:00:02 ◼   ► I was gonna actually sell it over Christmas break,

00:00:06 ◼   ► but because my son got the flu and that kind of delayed,

00:00:10 ◼   ► like we had to move all of our timing of all of our travel

00:00:13 ◼   ► and it made it so that there was no extra time

00:00:15 ◼   ► that I was gonna be spending around the Tesla

00:00:17 ◼   ► to get it sold, so it didn't happen yet,

00:00:19 ◼   ► but there are two more breaks coming later this winter.

00:00:23 ◼   ► So we'll see.

00:00:25 ◼   ► I gotta sell it while it's still worth anything

00:00:27 ◼   ► 'cause it's certainly worth a lot less now

00:00:30 ◼   ► than it was last summer.

00:00:31 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:33 ◼   ► It's Elon's final middle finger to me.

00:00:35 ◼   ► It's like, fine, you leave Twitter,

00:00:36 ◼   ► I'm gonna devalue your car.

00:00:38 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:39 ◼   ► - That's not true.

00:00:40 ◼   ► If you're willing to discuss,

00:00:41 ◼   ► what is your sales strategy for this?

00:00:43 ◼   ► Are you Carvanha-ing?

00:00:44 ◼   ► Are you gonna sell it privately?

00:00:45 ◼   ► 'Cause you're not looking to buy something,

00:00:47 ◼   ► so a trade-in doesn't seem possible.

00:00:48 ◼   ► Are you gonna go to CarMax?

00:00:49 ◼   ► Like, what's the plan?

00:00:50 ◼   ► - So, none of these things will give me a real quote.

00:00:53 ◼   ► So, here's, when I was last home for, like,

00:00:57 ◼   ► I'm like, "Oh, let me try to sell the Tesla while I'm here."

00:01:00 ◼   ► So I tried Carvana and everything and they were all like,

00:01:03 ◼   ► "Well, because of this not being a common car,

00:01:06 ◼   ► "you need to schedule an appointment

00:01:07 ◼   ► "and bring it in to us, la la la."

00:01:09 ◼   ► And I'm like, "Well, that's not gonna happen

00:01:11 ◼   ► "on Christmas Eve or whatever."

00:01:12 ◼   ► So I'm like, "All right, well, I guess I'll do that

00:01:14 ◼   ► "some other time."

00:01:15 ◼   ► And then I stupid, oh, I made a mistake.

00:01:18 ◼   ► So I went to Kelly Blue Book to see what's my current,

00:01:23 ◼   ► I figure, you're right, I'm not buying anything new

00:01:26 ◼   ► so that weakens my position for sure.

00:01:28 ◼   ► But I'm like, when you go to Kelly Blue Book,

00:01:30 ◼   ► you get the three values.

00:01:31 ◼   ► You get the dealer trade-in at the lowest,

00:01:33 ◼   ► then you get the private sale, which is the highest,

00:01:36 ◼   ► and I forget what the middle one is.

00:01:38 ◼   ► I'll take whatever, like the lowest value,

00:01:40 ◼   ► the dealer trade-in, I would take that.

00:01:42 ◼   ► That's fine, like at least it would be out of my hands.

00:01:44 ◼   ► I don't wanna deal with the private sale,

00:01:45 ◼   ► it's a pain in the butt.

00:01:46 ◼   ► And it takes more time than frankly I ever have around,

00:01:49 ◼   ► like I'm never there for long enough to do a private sale.

00:01:52 ◼   ► 'Cause I've done that in the past,

00:01:54 ◼   ► and you list it somewhere,

00:01:55 ◼   ► and you gotta wait maybe a week or two,

00:01:57 ◼   ► and show different people the car,

00:01:59 ◼   ► have them come around and kick the tires

00:02:01 ◼   ► and go on a little test drive,

00:02:02 ◼   ► and then decide not to buy it.

00:02:03 ◼   ► It's a huge time suck, that's why I don't do that anymore.

00:02:07 ◼   ► It's terrible.

00:02:09 ◼   ► And I'd never had a good experience with a private sale,

00:02:11 ◼   ► and so I'm like, all right, as a seller at least.

00:02:13 ◼   ► As a buyer, I've had great experiences,

00:02:15 ◼   ► but as a seller, I never had one.

00:02:18 ◼   ► So I thought, okay, well fine,

00:02:19 ◼   ► whatever the dealer trade in price is,

00:02:21 ◼   ► I'd be happy to take that.

00:02:23 ◼   ► So I go on Kelly Blue Book,

00:02:24 ◼   ► and I get the dealer trade in price,

00:02:27 ◼   ► and then they offer at the bottom of the screen,

00:02:30 ◼   ► hey, get our instant cash offer price now,

00:02:33 ◼   ► and we'll buy the car from you without you buying a vehicle.

00:02:37 ◼   ► So I thought, okay, let me see what they'll offer for that.

00:02:41 ◼   ► And it's one of those stupid scams

00:02:42 ◼   ► where they're not really gonna buy your car from you.

00:02:46 ◼   ► They give your information to 14 dealers in the region.

00:02:50 ◼   ► - Oh, gross.

00:02:51 ◼   ► and then you get spammed like crazy

00:02:53 ◼   ► from these desperate vultures,

00:02:56 ◼   ► and they're all offering like $15,000

00:02:59 ◼   ► below the dealer trade-in value.

00:03:00 ◼   ► - Boo.

00:03:01 ◼   ► - So I'm like, okay, well, first of all,

00:03:04 ◼   ► this is literally the site that just told me

00:03:07 ◼   ► what my goals were. (laughs)

00:03:10 ◼   ► And this is way below that.

00:03:12 ◼   ► And second of all, now I'm gonna get spammed forever

00:03:15 ◼   ► from these rando, desperate, used car dealers.

00:03:17 ◼   ► Thanks a lot.

00:03:18 ◼   ► So I can't recommend Kelly Blue Book for anything

00:03:22 ◼   ► at this moment, for either the valuation,

00:03:24 ◼   ► which seems to be wrong,

00:03:25 ◼   ► or for their stupid cash offer thing.

00:03:28 ◼   ► So I'm probably gonna go to Carvana or CarMax

00:03:31 ◼   ► or whatever those things are and take whatever they give me,

00:03:34 ◼   ► which is probably gonna be very, very low.

00:03:36 ◼   ► And I'm gonna really be grumbly about it for a while,

00:03:39 ◼   ► but at least I won't have to deal with it anymore.

00:03:42 ◼   ► - Well, through the magic of YouTube advertising,

00:03:45 ◼   ► I'm going to recommend something to you

00:03:46 ◼   ► that maybe Casey will be familiar with.

00:03:49 ◼   ► - Cars and bids?

00:03:50 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:03:51 ◼   ► - No, 'cause here's the thing.

00:03:53 ◼   ► Cars and, I like browsing cars and bids

00:03:55 ◼   ► to see what are the Rivian's costing these days.

00:03:57 ◼   ► But the reason I would not wanna sell on a site like that,

00:04:00 ◼   ► that's a site that is browsed by car nerds.

00:04:05 ◼   ► I don't wanna sell my car to a car nerd.

00:04:08 ◼   ► - But it's like eBay though,

00:04:09 ◼   ► like you just put pictures and then a bunch of people bid

00:04:11 ◼   ► and they're probably gonna pay a lot

00:04:13 ◼   ► because car nerds know what they're getting,

00:04:14 ◼   ► Like they understand the nuances of why this is good,

00:04:16 ◼   ► low mileage, good condition, one owner, blah, blah, blah.

00:04:19 ◼   ► And they'd understand this is the one

00:04:20 ◼   ► before they ruin the steering wheel, so on and so forth.

00:04:22 ◼   ► So you'll get a lot of money for it,

00:04:24 ◼   ► and you don't have to deal with showing people the car

00:04:26 ◼   ► and kicking the tires and they have to like it.

00:04:27 ◼   ► Someone's gonna win the thing

00:04:29 ◼   ► and then they're gonna buy the car.

00:04:30 ◼   ► And they're a car person,

00:04:31 ◼   ► so they'll probably understand what they're buying

00:04:34 ◼   ► and know how to go and get it from you.

00:04:36 ◼   ► - No, Cars and Biz is the kind of place

00:04:39 ◼   ► where Casey should sell a car.

00:04:40 ◼   ► Because Casey's cars have been detailed and washed

00:04:44 ◼   ► and kept in great condition.

00:04:46 ◼   ► - No, Cars and Biz doesn't care

00:04:47 ◼   ► that yours is a little scratched up, it'll be fine.

00:04:50 ◼   ► - It's not gonna be, no, car nerds,

00:04:52 ◼   ► they're gonna see things I've never seen.

00:04:54 ◼   ► They're gonna be the panel gap people.

00:04:56 ◼   ► - Like I said, they also appreciate

00:04:58 ◼   ► why your car is desirable above and beyond the fact that,

00:05:02 ◼   ► because all the Carvana or whatever,

00:05:03 ◼   ► all they care is make, model, year, mileage,

00:05:06 ◼   ► condition as a one to five scale.

00:05:09 ◼   ► They don't understand the nuances

00:05:10 ◼   ► of why this car is worth more than an uglier color

00:05:14 ◼   ► or a model year that was worse, you know what I mean?

00:05:16 ◼   ► I feel like you'd get way more money for there.

00:05:18 ◼   ► And it should be just as little hassle

00:05:20 ◼   ► because you don't have to deal with showing people the car

00:05:23 ◼   ► and all that stuff, it's just you put up the pictures,

00:05:25 ◼   ► people bid, you get a decent price, you sell.

00:05:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe.

00:05:28 ◼   ► I mean, the other thing too is like,

00:05:29 ◼   ► I also have and would want to sell with the car

00:05:33 ◼   ► a second set of rims that had snow tires on them.

00:05:37 ◼   ► Now the tires aren't usable anymore,

00:05:38 ◼   ► so I'll probably have to dispose of those myself.

00:05:40 ◼   ► But there's a second set of Tesla rims

00:05:42 ◼   ► that's probably worth a thousand bucks or whatever.

00:05:44 ◼   ► - The Cars and Bids people will also understand

00:05:46 ◼   ► that those are valuable.

00:05:47 ◼   ► - That is true, actually.

00:05:48 ◼   ► - And be willing to buy them from you

00:05:49 ◼   ► because they'll just resell them for more.

00:05:51 ◼   ► - Right, so, maybe.

00:05:53 ◼   ► But then I gotta, first of all,

00:05:54 ◼   ► I'll have to do this not in the winter,

00:05:56 ◼   ► 'cause it'll have to look nice.

00:05:58 ◼   ► - No, totally do it in the winter.

00:05:59 ◼   ► I'm looking at a Ford Bronco right now,

00:06:01 ◼   ► pictures of it in the snow.

00:06:02 ◼   ► - No, but then I have to go get it detailed.

00:06:04 ◼   ► It's a much greater hassle.

00:06:07 ◼   ► - You just gotta slum it on Cars and Bids.

00:06:08 ◼   ► You're like, "Look, I've got a car.

00:06:10 ◼   ► "I know you want this car.

00:06:11 ◼   ► Here's a bunch of pictures.

00:06:12 ◼   ► I've got a car.

00:06:13 ◼   ► You've got bids.

00:06:14 ◼   ► Let's make it happen.

00:06:16 ◼   ► You have a desirable car in good condition with low mileage.

00:06:19 ◼   ► It's a slam dunk.

00:06:20 ◼   ► Do not let Carvana buy this car for you for like $10,000

00:06:24 ◼   ► less than it's worth.

00:06:25 ◼   ► I also think--

00:06:27 ◼   ► I don't know, I've really soured on Demiro over the years.

00:06:30 ◼   ► I would also consider Bring a Trailer as a--

00:06:33 ◼   ► It's not that different.

00:06:35 ◼   ► It's a very similar thing.

00:06:36 ◼   ► eBay for cars is what we're saying.

00:06:38 ◼   ► So you don't have to deal with lots of people looking at it.

00:06:40 ◼   ► Let's see.

00:06:40 ◼   ► here's pretty much exactly my car with three times the mileage that sold for $10,000 more

00:06:48 ◼   ► than what they offered me.

00:06:49 ◼   ► That's what I'm saying.

00:06:50 ◼   ► I'm coming around to John's point on this one.

00:06:52 ◼   ► I hate to bring it to you.

00:06:53 ◼   ► That's a substantial price difference.

00:06:57 ◼   ► The things that your car has are intangibles, and those intangibles are only going to be

00:07:00 ◼   ► appreciated by car people who know what they're getting.

00:07:04 ◼   ► What intangibles are you thinking of?

00:07:05 ◼   ► Previously owned by Marco Arment?

00:07:07 ◼   ► single owner, good condition, low mileage, and it's the Model S before they screwed

00:07:11 ◼   ► it up.

00:07:12 ◼   ► It's the last one with a goddamn sunroof.

00:07:14 ◼   ► And a round steering wheel.

00:07:16 ◼   ► And a complete steering wheel.

00:07:17 ◼   ► You get the entire steering wheel with this price.

00:07:19 ◼   ► And it's just driven by a little old man in Westchester to church every Sunday.

00:07:25 ◼   ► It was not flogged, it was not abused, he was not drag racing on the weekend.

00:07:30 ◼   ► Only hit by one plow.

00:07:32 ◼   ► - No teenager ever drove it, it's only accidents

00:07:35 ◼   ► where like when it was parked unattended,

00:07:37 ◼   ► like it's just, it's a good car.

00:07:39 ◼   ► The battery's probably got tons of life left in it.

00:07:41 ◼   ► Check the battery health thing.

00:07:42 ◼   ► - The stock tires are not that well worn

00:07:44 ◼   ► because I kept snow tires on it

00:07:46 ◼   ► for like a year and a half straight.

00:07:48 ◼   ► - And at this point you can be pretty sure

00:07:50 ◼   ► it isn't one of those ones that's assembled

00:07:52 ◼   ► with roofing screws, right,

00:07:53 ◼   ► 'cause it would've fallen apart by now.

00:07:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, right.

00:07:56 ◼   ► - So whoever built this one was not like,

00:07:57 ◼   ► you know, just slapping it together in a tent.

00:08:00 ◼   ► - Oh, I guess I should probably do this,

00:08:02 ◼   ► but how that, I mean, this, oh, this sold in Texas.

00:08:04 ◼   ► I don't, fuck.

00:08:05 ◼   ► - It's not a thing you don't have to deal with that.

00:08:06 ◼   ► They'll come and get it just there.

00:08:08 ◼   ► The people who want this car are gonna want it.

00:08:10 ◼   ► - How does, so wait, how does it work?

00:08:11 ◼   ► They literally just like send a trailer to come get it,

00:08:13 ◼   ► or what?

00:08:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, usually.

00:08:15 ◼   ► - I mean, whoever buys it is gonna do that

00:08:16 ◼   ► if they don't, like, it's the buyer's problem.

00:08:18 ◼   ► You say where you are, and it's the buyer's problem

00:08:20 ◼   ► and how they're gonna get it, but it's not your problem.

00:08:22 ◼   ► You don't have to ship it to them or something.

00:08:23 ◼   ► - Oh, this one has a bunch of paint chips.

00:08:25 ◼   ► Mine's in less crappy condition than this one.

00:08:27 ◼   ► - See?

00:08:28 ◼   ► What if I just page on like $5,000

00:08:31 ◼   ► to just come do this entire thing for me?

00:08:33 ◼   ► 'Cause I'll make way more than that.

00:08:35 ◼   ► - Just use it as packing material

00:08:36 ◼   ► for some other thing you're gonna send me.

00:08:38 ◼   ► I'll take the Tesla off your hands.

00:08:40 ◼   ► - I'll fill the Tesla with Kindles and send it to you.

00:08:42 ◼   ► - As you know, I enjoy stick shift cars,

00:08:46 ◼   ► but if I'm gonna have one without a stick shift,

00:08:48 ◼   ► it'll be electric.

00:08:49 ◼   ► - Amen to that, brother, amen to that.

00:08:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, you know what's better than manual transmission?

00:08:52 ◼   ► No transmission.

00:08:53 ◼   ► - There's still a transmission.

00:08:55 ◼   ► - Not really.

00:08:56 ◼   ► I mean, Tesla's a single speed.

00:08:57 ◼   ► - I know, but it's still, anyway, whatever.

00:09:00 ◼   ► - Is it a transmission if it can't change gears?

00:09:03 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, 'cause it changes the gear ratio.

00:09:05 ◼   ► It's not just like one to one.

00:09:07 ◼   ► - No, I think it's, I don't think it does.

00:09:10 ◼   ► - It does.

00:09:11 ◼   ► - How?

00:09:12 ◼   ► - Marco, because it transmits its power.

00:09:14 ◼   ► - It is a fixed ratio, but it is a gear ratio.

00:09:16 ◼   ► There are different numbers of teeth on the gears.

00:09:18 ◼   ► - That's just called gears.

00:09:19 ◼   ► They're just a set of gears.

00:09:21 ◼   ► - Right, but they don't all have the same number of teeth.

00:09:22 ◼   ► The gear ratio is not one to one.

00:09:24 ◼   ► - No, but I don't--

00:09:25 ◼   ► - Otherwise your back wheels would be turning

00:09:26 ◼   ► at 20,000 RPM.

00:09:27 ◼   ► - No, but I don't think, like, do Teslas have

00:09:31 ◼   ► more than one gear besides forward and reverse?

00:09:34 ◼   ► - No, I mean like actual gears, as in circular things

00:09:36 ◼   ► with teeth that mesh with each other.

00:09:38 ◼   ► Go look at exploded diagram of the thing

00:09:41 ◼   ► that powers your car, you will see several gears

00:09:43 ◼   ► that mesh with each other with different numbers

00:09:45 ◼   ► of teeth on them. - But doesn't a transmission

00:09:46 ◼   ► require the two like change between ratios at some point?

00:09:50 ◼   ► - No, it just requires the power to be transmitted

00:09:53 ◼   ► through a series of gears with different numbers

00:09:55 ◼   ► of teeth on them unless it's just one gear ratio.

00:09:57 ◼   ► - Okay, so then a watch is a transmission then.

00:09:59 ◼   ► 'Cause there's gears-- - Well, it's not a car, so.

00:10:02 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:03 ◼   ► Lots of things have gears that aren't cars.

00:10:05 ◼   ► This is like robot or not.

00:10:05 ◼   ► - Like is my hand mixer, is my electric hand mixer upstairs?

00:10:08 ◼   ► Is that a transmission?

00:10:09 ◼   ► - Exactly, like what about my kitchen haters?

00:10:10 ◼   ► Does that have a transmission?

00:10:11 ◼   ► Well, kind of.

00:10:12 ◼   ► - Yeah. - Oh gosh.

00:10:14 ◼   ► What have we done?

00:10:15 ◼   ► I have regrets.

00:10:17 ◼   ► (electronic beeping)

00:10:18 ◼   ► All right, let's bring us back around

00:10:19 ◼   ► and let's do some follow-up.

00:10:21 ◼   ► Jonas writes, "I was a bit worried

00:10:22 ◼   ► "about the time machine iCloud backup,

00:10:24 ◼   ► iCloud photo library thing, but it seems that it's included in time machine backups

00:10:28 ◼   ► And so I guess Jonas or maybe John found a knowledge base or whatever article about this

00:10:34 ◼   ► So tell me about this at Apple comm so we can be pretty sure they know what they're talking about

00:10:38 ◼   ► It says Apple says even if you use iCloud photos, it's important

00:10:42 ◼   ► You always back up your library locally using one of the followed methods and the two methods

00:10:46 ◼   ► They list our use time machine and it claims that will back everything up or manually copy your library to your external storage device

00:10:52 ◼   ► I think what I was misremembering last episode was and I again

00:10:56 ◼   ► I don't know if this is true because all we have is this vague advice from Apple

00:10:59 ◼   ► This is hey back it up use time machine. So thumbs up on that

00:11:01 ◼   ► Maybe I was misremembering a thing where when you use time machine, you will not back up the SQLite metadata databases

00:11:09 ◼   ► But will only back up the photo files and the rest of the structure

00:11:12 ◼   ► If you use iCloud photo library because it assumes it can always regenerate the SQLite databases from the iCloud photo stuff

00:11:18 ◼   ► That's the thing now

00:11:20 ◼   ► I don't know if it's true, but apparently you're safe using time machine if you just want to back at the actual photos

00:11:24 ◼   ► I think and it will back up the whole thing the whole photo library

00:11:27 ◼   ► There was just some big blow up a couple years ago people being mad that a time machine wouldn't back up some

00:11:33 ◼   ► What they considered to be an important part of the photo library

00:11:37 ◼   ► And the reason they don't back it up is because if you use iCloud photos

00:11:40 ◼   ► That the that source of truth is in the cloud anyway

00:11:44 ◼   ► So your local backup of it is just gonna get overridden with what's in the cloud

00:11:47 ◼   ► And that's why I think they didn't pack it up

00:11:48 ◼   ► So maybe more follow-up on this in the future, but for the main question of will it back up my photos the answer is yes

00:11:53 ◼   ► Cool. All right, there are

00:11:55 ◼   ► Some new monitors that we need to talk about we talked about the Samsung 5k

00:12:00 ◼   ► Last week and actually we have some updates on that and then there's a Dell we need to talk about but tell me we have a

00:12:06 ◼   ► Little more information about the Samsung I guess. Yeah, we talked about the camera last time. I'm like, oh, it's a 4k camera

00:12:10 ◼   ► It's a good camera not like that crappy one on the Apple Studio display

00:12:13 ◼   ► Well, 4K camera is about 8.3 megapixel and the studio display has a 12 megapixel camera.

00:12:19 ◼   ► I still think the one on the Samsung is probably better because we don't know what the crop

00:12:26 ◼   ► factor is on that 4K camera.

00:12:28 ◼   ► Apple's super ultra wide camera that it uses on the studio display tracks you through a

00:12:33 ◼   ► wide range of, you know, you can move all over the place, right?

00:12:37 ◼   ► I would imagine Samsung is going to take a less extreme approach with its 4K camera and

00:12:42 ◼   ► And when it says that it tracks you,

00:12:43 ◼   ► I bet it crops out a portion of the 4K frame,

00:12:47 ◼   ► but not as tiny a portion as a studio display does.

00:12:49 ◼   ► We'll see when the thing ships,

00:12:50 ◼   ► but that's a software question more than a hardware one.

00:12:53 ◼   ► But just wanted to clarify,

00:12:54 ◼   ► 4K is about eight megapixels

00:12:56 ◼   ► and a studio display is 12 megapixel camera.

00:12:59 ◼   ► - And then Dell has a new 6K monitor

00:13:02 ◼   ► that makes your XDR look like a pile of garbage.

00:13:04 ◼   ► - It does not, but it exists as a 6K monitor.

00:13:08 ◼   ► So here's what's important about it.

00:13:09 ◼   ► It is a 32 inch 6K monitor,

00:13:11 ◼   ► which is the same as the XDR.

00:13:13 ◼   ► It has more pixels than the XDR.

00:13:15 ◼   ► The XDR is also 32 inches,

00:13:17 ◼   ► but the Dell 6K monitor is 6144 by 3456,

00:13:21 ◼   ► and the XDR is 6016 by 3384.

00:13:26 ◼   ► Sorry for reading those numbers that way,

00:13:28 ◼   ► but that's the way my brain works sometimes.

00:13:30 ◼   ► So the Dell monitor has 875,520 more pixels than the XDR.

00:13:35 ◼   ► The PPI is very similar.

00:13:40 ◼   ► On the Dell it's 223 and on the XDR it's 215.

00:13:43 ◼   ► So this is a Mac appropriate monitor

00:13:46 ◼   ► with more pixels than the XDR.

00:13:49 ◼   ► So this is looking pretty good here.

00:13:51 ◼   ► Same size, more pixels.

00:13:53 ◼   ► - It looks pretty good until you see it.

00:13:55 ◼   ► - No, we'll get there, we'll get there.

00:13:58 ◼   ► It is not a fancy display like the XDR though.

00:14:02 ◼   ► It is an LG IPS monitor.

00:14:06 ◼   ► It covers P3 but that's about it.

00:14:09 ◼   ► It does 600 nits max, which is not anything close

00:14:12 ◼   ► to the XDR 1600 nits max.

00:14:14 ◼   ► It has the good old familiar from last episode,

00:14:18 ◼   ► display HDR 600 certification,

00:14:21 ◼   ► but according to Arstactica, it does have local dimming.

00:14:24 ◼   ► It has 12 zones.

00:14:26 ◼   ► That's not good.

00:14:27 ◼   ► - I think I would just turn it off at that point, right?

00:14:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, the peak brightness is less than half of the XDR

00:14:35 ◼   ► and the XDR has 576 dimming zones.

00:14:37 ◼   ► And even that is paltry compared to modern mini LED monitors

00:14:41 ◼   ► that have way more dimming zones.

00:14:42 ◼   ► 12 dimming zones is not good.

00:14:45 ◼   ► But it does claim that it has a good IPS display

00:14:48 ◼   ► or whatever, anyway.

00:14:49 ◼   ► Hide adjustable stand included of course with rotation

00:14:52 ◼   ► 'cause why wouldn't you have that on such an expensive model

00:14:54 ◼   ► and that would be crazy.

00:14:55 ◼   ► - Wait, it's not $1,000?

00:14:57 ◼   ► - No, yeah.

00:14:58 ◼   ► Here's the thing, I mean this is CS, this is coming from CS

00:15:00 ◼   ► so we don't know the pricing of this.

00:15:01 ◼   ► So we can't make fun of how badly priced Apple's things are

00:15:04 ◼   ► 'cause we don't technically know about the price

00:15:06 ◼   ► So I'm going to say it's going to undercut Apple.

00:15:09 ◼   ► It has a 4K dual gain HDR webcam that uses quote unquote AI to keep you in the frame.

00:15:15 ◼   ► You know, sounds familiar, huh?

00:15:17 ◼   ► This is apparently a dual gain HDR CMOS sensor with multi-element lens.

00:15:21 ◼   ► The webcam has independent hardware tilt.

00:15:24 ◼   ► So even though the camera is built into the monitor, you can apparently tilt it with your

00:15:28 ◼   ► hand.

00:15:29 ◼   ► It uses Dell Express sign-in technology to detect your presence when you're nearby and

00:15:32 ◼   ► logs you in automatically, locking your PC when you walk away.

00:15:35 ◼   ► You know I want face ID on the Mac and I would love it if it locked the screen when I walked

00:15:38 ◼   ► away because it knew I did that because of the camera but I'm sure this is all like a

00:15:41 ◼   ► Windows feature and not a monitor thing.

00:15:44 ◼   ► If it works as well as the Windows face recognition thing to log in you're not missing much.

00:15:50 ◼   ► I mean that's better than nothing I feel like but we'll see.

00:15:52 ◼   ► It's not.

00:15:54 ◼   ► It's worse than nothing.

00:15:55 ◼   ► Oh well.

00:15:56 ◼   ► If it worked as well as face ID on my iPad and my iPhone I would be happy.

00:16:00 ◼   ► So and I feel like Apple could make that happen someday maybe.

00:16:03 ◼   ► It has a mute and camera disabled touch sensors accessible on the front of the monitor, because

00:16:07 ◼   ► it's nice to be able to do those things quickly.

00:16:09 ◼   ► 14 watt stereo speakers.

00:16:11 ◼   ► Auto KVM built in.

00:16:12 ◼   ► Let's you control two PC sources with a single mouse and keyboard.

00:16:16 ◼   ► Viewing content from two computers with picture in picture and picture by picture modes.

00:16:20 ◼   ► I think you can put the two monitors side by side.

00:16:23 ◼   ► Like two images on the screen.

00:16:25 ◼   ► Connectivity.

00:16:26 ◼   ► Of course it has tons of ports, why wouldn't it?

00:16:28 ◼   ► Such an expensive large monitor.

00:16:30 ◼   ► HDMI, DisplayPort 2.1, Thunderbolt 4,

00:16:33 ◼   ► RS calls this Thunderbolt 4 downstream.

00:16:35 ◼   ► I'm assuming that means that's how you connect

00:16:37 ◼   ► your computer to it, I'm not sure.

00:16:40 ◼   ► USB-C upstream, four USB-A ports,

00:16:43 ◼   ► 2.5 gigabit ethernet port,

00:16:46 ◼   ► and a front panel with two USB-C ports

00:16:48 ◼   ► at 10 gigabits with 15 watt power delivery

00:16:50 ◼   ► and one USB-A port with 10 gigabits,

00:16:52 ◼   ► and BC 1.2 power charging,

00:16:55 ◼   ► which is apparently an abbreviation

00:16:56 ◼   ► for USB battery charging revision 1.2.

00:16:59 ◼   ► up to 140 watts of power delivery.

00:17:02 ◼   ► So it's not the same specs as the XDR.

00:17:05 ◼   ► It's kind of an XDR for people who don't need 1600 nits,

00:17:09 ◼   ► great color fidelity, so on and so forth,

00:17:11 ◼   ► but just want a big single monitor with tons of ports

00:17:15 ◼   ► and lots of features and all that good stuff.

00:17:17 ◼   ► Unfortunately, as Marco alluded to before,

00:17:20 ◼   ► it's ugly as sin.

00:17:21 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:17:22 ◼   ► - It's so ugly.

00:17:23 ◼   ► - Let me paint you a word picture.

00:17:26 ◼   ► So imagine like a standard computer monitor

00:17:28 ◼   ► with a ugly plastic base or stand on it.

00:17:32 ◼   ► But as you look up, you notice that there's a forehead

00:17:37 ◼   ► that must be a couple of inches tall.

00:17:40 ◼   ► And that is way out of line with the bezel

00:17:42 ◼   ► on the rest of the sides of the display.

00:17:44 ◼   ► - And as big as the forehead is,

00:17:46 ◼   ► is it so big because it contains the camera?

00:17:48 ◼   ► No, it does not contain the camera.

00:17:50 ◼   ► - No, Jon, I'm glad you asked.

00:17:52 ◼   ► Only half of the circular camera is within the forehead.

00:17:55 ◼   ► - Half of the huge camera.

00:17:57 ◼   ► Like huge, just like the size of a golf ball.

00:18:01 ◼   ► - Right, and then the other half of this golf ball

00:18:03 ◼   ► sized camera is above the top bezel.

00:18:06 ◼   ► It's the top of the monitor.

00:18:08 ◼   ► It looks preposterous.

00:18:10 ◼   ► - It looks like an enemy from Half Life.

00:18:13 ◼   ► - It's like so ungainly looking.

00:18:15 ◼   ► Like anything where the bezel is bigger on the top

00:18:17 ◼   ► and the bottom always kind of looks like the monitor

00:18:18 ◼   ► is upside down and then it's got the big thing.

00:18:21 ◼   ► But if you look at the videos of this thing,

00:18:23 ◼   ► the stand is tilt adjustable, height adjustable, rotates.

00:18:27 ◼   ► So many ports on this thing, so many features.

00:18:30 ◼   ► It's got all the stuff that you can want.

00:18:31 ◼   ► And I bet the price is gonna be pretty good.

00:18:33 ◼   ► And I don't think there's really any other game in town

00:18:36 ◼   ► for, hey, I want an XDR, but I don't need,

00:18:38 ◼   ► you know, 1,600 nits.

00:18:39 ◼   ► Now, as I said, when we talked about this

00:18:41 ◼   ► and kind of, you know, a few months after I got it,

00:18:44 ◼   ► whatever, I really do, I didn't think I would care

00:18:46 ◼   ► about the HDR, but I really do appreciate it

00:18:48 ◼   ► because my phone, my family's phones take HDR video

00:18:52 ◼   ► and photos, and when I view them on the big screen

00:18:56 ◼   ► where I do my photo editing, they look HDR.

00:18:59 ◼   ► I actually use those 1600 nits

00:19:01 ◼   ► and so do Apple's Pro laptops now.

00:19:04 ◼   ► So I'm kind of at the point where,

00:19:05 ◼   ► if you had asked me before about the XDR,

00:19:08 ◼   ► I'd be like, oh, I would just love something like the XDR

00:19:10 ◼   ► that just doesn't have that HDR stuff

00:19:11 ◼   ► that I don't care about.

00:19:12 ◼   ► But now I'm kind of over the line where I think

00:19:14 ◼   ► I don't ever wanna buy a monitor that doesn't do HDR

00:19:17 ◼   ► for my quote unquote good monitor.

00:19:18 ◼   ► So in that respect, this one is not to my liking,

00:19:23 ◼   ► but I think having a 6K monitor

00:19:25 ◼   ► for people who don't care about HDR

00:19:27 ◼   ► that has all the features and connects to all the things

00:19:30 ◼   ► and has a good camera built in and everything.

00:19:33 ◼   ► If this thing is priced reasonably,

00:19:35 ◼   ► I'm just super glad this exists

00:19:37 ◼   ► because now we have another alternative to the Apple 5K

00:19:41 ◼   ► and now finally we have something I never thought

00:19:42 ◼   ► we'd have, an alternative to the XDR

00:19:44 ◼   ► that again, assuming it's not more expensive,

00:19:47 ◼   ► is great to just have in the market

00:19:49 ◼   ► for people who want a big monitor

00:19:51 ◼   ► but don't wanna pay six grand once you have the stand.

00:19:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I'm guessing this is,

00:19:56 ◼   ► I mean, not knowing anything about

00:19:58 ◼   ► what these components cost these days.

00:20:00 ◼   ► Apple's at six grand from a monitor

00:20:01 ◼   ► that's now a few years old

00:20:03 ◼   ► that has higher specs in certain areas

00:20:04 ◼   ► and of course higher design and everything else.

00:20:06 ◼   ► I'm gonna say this is probably gonna be

00:20:08 ◼   ► under four grand for the Dell one

00:20:10 ◼   ► and if I'm right about that,

00:20:12 ◼   ► even if it's four grand,

00:20:13 ◼   ► it's probably even gonna be less than that,

00:20:15 ◼   ► that's gonna be a great deal.

00:20:16 ◼   ► Like for what you're getting

00:20:17 ◼   ► compared to what else is in the market,

00:20:19 ◼   ► I think this is gonna be well under the XDR's price.

00:20:23 ◼   ► maybe even half, it could be 3,000, I don't know,

00:20:26 ◼   ► but whatever it is, it's probably gonna be

00:20:29 ◼   ► a really compelling price, and the money you're saving,

00:20:32 ◼   ► you can buy anything that will make you not see

00:20:35 ◼   ► how this looks, maybe like one of those,

00:20:38 ◼   ► if you look through one of those cartoon ninja masks,

00:20:40 ◼   ► so you're looking through a slit,

00:20:42 ◼   ► if you can just cut off the top and bottom

00:20:43 ◼   ► and not see anything beyond that, I don't know.

00:20:46 ◼   ► - You know what I do think is kind of cool?

00:20:48 ◼   ► It's really ugly, but I like the principle of it.

00:20:51 ◼   ► So they have some, I guess, capacitive buttons

00:20:54 ◼   ► on the bottom left-hand side of the screen.

00:20:55 ◼   ► Not in love with that, but at least they have a button.

00:20:58 ◼   ► Imagine how cool it would be if your studio display

00:21:00 ◼   ► had a power button.

00:21:01 ◼   ► That would be amazing!

00:21:03 ◼   ► But anyway.

00:21:03 ◼   ► - No, you know what?

00:21:04 ◼   ► I love hearing about everyone's studio display bugs.

00:21:08 ◼   ► Because you know how many times I've had to unplug my XDR?

00:21:11 ◼   ► - I'm gonna guess none.

00:21:12 ◼   ► - Yep, correct, none.

00:21:13 ◼   ► Oh wait, once I rewired my desk.

00:21:15 ◼   ► - But both of these monitors should have power buttons.

00:21:19 ◼   ► Like even the XTR, which I've also had no problems with,

00:21:21 ◼   ► it should still have a power button too.

00:21:23 ◼   ► - No, it's an Apple device, it's not gonna have

00:21:24 ◼   ► a power button, their headphones don't even have

00:21:25 ◼   ► a power button, not a chance the monitor will.

00:21:27 ◼   ► - But they should, that's a, like, we got them to add back

00:21:30 ◼   ► the good keyboards, SD card slot, HDMI to the laptops,

00:21:33 ◼   ► I think we can convince them that power buttons

00:21:35 ◼   ► are a thing that electronic devices should have.

00:21:37 ◼   ► - I know, I tell you, I actually, for interesting reasons,

00:21:40 ◼   ► I used someone else's 12-inch MacBook today,

00:21:43 ◼   ► and it's the first time I've seen one of those

00:21:45 ◼   ► in a long time, and of course, the space bar is broken.

00:21:49 ◼   ► but it did feel really small.

00:21:51 ◼   ► I was like, damn, I wish this size still existed,

00:21:54 ◼   ► but wow, I'm glad this keyboard doesn't still exist.

00:21:57 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:21:58 ◼   ► Anyway, next to these capacitive buttons,

00:22:00 ◼   ► there's a little like MacBook Air,

00:22:02 ◼   ► original MacBook Air style door that drops,

00:22:04 ◼   ► or not door, but like, I don't know,

00:22:06 ◼   ► like column that drops down.

00:22:08 ◼   ► - It's a USB-C hub is what it is, basically.

00:22:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it has two USB-C ports on it

00:22:13 ◼   ► and a USB-A port on it.

00:22:14 ◼   ► And then you can shimmy it back up

00:22:16 ◼   ► within the contents of the inside of the monitor

00:22:19 ◼   ► and confines of the monitor, that's what I was looking for.

00:22:21 ◼   ► You can slide it back up inside the monitor

00:22:23 ◼   ► and it disappears.

00:22:24 ◼   ► And I think I'm supposed to hate this,

00:22:26 ◼   ► but I think I kinda like it.

00:22:28 ◼   ► - No, front-facing parts, useful thing to have,

00:22:30 ◼   ► so you don't have to constantly reach around

00:22:31 ◼   ► behind the monitor.

00:22:32 ◼   ► This is exactly what PC makers will do,

00:22:34 ◼   ► is like, oh, let's just add all the features

00:22:35 ◼   ► that we think will be useful.

00:22:36 ◼   ► Sometimes inelegantly and sometimes they go overboard,

00:22:39 ◼   ► but it's such a nice, that's why you need,

00:22:41 ◼   ► Apple needs competition and you need contrast.

00:22:43 ◼   ► The Apple's overly simplified thing is contrasted

00:22:46 ◼   ► with this thing that has every feature

00:22:47 ◼   ► anyone could ever think of.

00:22:49 ◼   ► Somewhere in the middle is probably where we wanna be,

00:22:50 ◼   ► but it's good to have the two things balancing each other.

00:22:53 ◼   ► So if you don't like what Apple has done,

00:22:55 ◼   ► you have an alternative.

00:22:56 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:22:57 ◼   ► - Do you think as you type on your desk

00:22:59 ◼   ► that this stand will wiggle the whole monitor?

00:23:01 ◼   ► - I think Dell usually has pretty good stands,

00:23:03 ◼   ► and this one looks pretty sturdy.

00:23:05 ◼   ► It's LG that can't make a stand.

00:23:06 ◼   ► - I know, well, but I haven't,

00:23:08 ◼   ► I used to love Dell monitors.

00:23:10 ◼   ► Back in the pre-written days,

00:23:12 ◼   ► I had two Dell 24 inches and they were fantastic.

00:23:15 ◼   ► And I mean, you know, at the time when those came out

00:23:18 ◼   ► in, you know, 2006 or whatever, those were really great,

00:23:22 ◼   ► very competitively priced, very well performing monitors

00:23:25 ◼   ► and they were great, but that was a long time ago

00:23:29 ◼   ► and I, you know, I wouldn't make any assumptions

00:23:32 ◼   ► unless I've heard otherwise that they would still be

00:23:35 ◼   ► even, you know, the same company,

00:23:36 ◼   ► little one making the same quality stuff.

00:23:38 ◼   ► We are brought to you this week by Sanity,

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00:25:16 ◼   ► Once again, sanity.io/atp.

00:25:19 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Sanity for sponsoring our show.

00:25:22 ◼   ► - John, do you need Marco and me

00:25:27 ◼   ► for the next like 20, 30 minutes

00:25:29 ◼   ► or can we just take a little nap?

00:25:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, you'll have to be my camera crew

00:25:32 ◼   ► as I report from the CES show floor.

00:25:34 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:25:35 ◼   ► - My annual trip to CES that I don't actually take,

00:25:38 ◼   ► this is it.

00:25:39 ◼   ► So CES is going on.

00:25:41 ◼   ► I've never actually been to CES,

00:25:43 ◼   ► but I will be virtually reporting from there

00:25:45 ◼   ► on the tiny amount of things

00:25:47 ◼   ► that I actually care about at CES,

00:25:48 ◼   ► and those are having to do with televisions.

00:25:50 ◼   ► What's going on on the world TV

00:25:51 ◼   ► is just a quick overview here.

00:25:53 ◼   ► - Well, hold on, I'm curious before we begin.

00:25:56 ◼   ► I know from being on the more computer side of things

00:26:00 ◼   ► that CES does not have a strong correlation

00:26:04 ◼   ► into what actually comes out on the market.

00:26:06 ◼   ► Is that better for TVs?

00:26:07 ◼   ► Like do TVs have a better track record

00:26:09 ◼   ► of what's shown at CES actually then gets delivered

00:26:12 ◼   ► to the market?

00:26:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, so for televisions it has simply become

00:26:16 ◼   ► the thing where like everybody,

00:26:18 ◼   ► there's like an annual crop of televisions

00:26:20 ◼   ► and everybody just shows, with an asterisk

00:26:22 ◼   ► that I'll get to in a second,

00:26:23 ◼   ► shows their TVs at CES.

00:26:25 ◼   ► They also show stuff that isn't a TV.

00:26:28 ◼   ► Here's something we're thinking of,

00:26:29 ◼   ► here's something stupid, like the concept car equivalent.

00:26:31 ◼   ► That crap is, you know, whatever, right?

00:26:33 ◼   ► But the TVs they show, they ship them later that year.

00:26:36 ◼   ► Unless something catastrophic happens,

00:26:38 ◼   ► they ship them pretty reliably.

00:26:40 ◼   ► So it's annoying that CES comes

00:26:42 ◼   ► and you don't get prices and availability,

00:26:44 ◼   ► but you basically know, look, this happens every single year.

00:26:46 ◼   ► They show them in January, they're not yet ready to ship.

00:26:49 ◼   ► Sometime during the year, probably around the middle,

00:26:51 ◼   ► they're gonna ship them,

00:26:52 ◼   ► we're gonna find out the pricing and availability,

00:26:54 ◼   ► and we do it all over the next year.

00:26:55 ◼   ► So that is very reliable.

00:26:56 ◼   ► So it's not like, you know, they give you the names,

00:26:58 ◼   ► the model numbers and everything, right?

00:27:00 ◼   ► So these are real products, not, you know,

00:27:02 ◼   ► Ignore the concept car stuffs, although I'll talk a little bit about the concept car stuff

00:27:06 ◼   ► here too.

00:27:07 ◼   ► So this year, the starting news is you can finally get Quantum Dot QD OLED screens in

00:27:14 ◼   ► larger than 65 inch sizes.

00:27:16 ◼   ► All the fancy TV people who have bigger houses than me wanted to buy my recommended TV last

00:27:21 ◼   ► year, the Sony A95K, but like, oh, it only goes in 65 inch.

00:27:24 ◼   ► That's the biggest size you can get, which is fine for me.

00:27:27 ◼   ► My last TV was 55 inches and I upgraded to 65 and that's about as big as I can fit, but

00:27:32 ◼   ► There was nothing bigger.

00:27:33 ◼   ► So this year finally you can get a 77 inch size.

00:27:35 ◼   ► Samsung display makes QD OLED screens.

00:27:37 ◼   ► They are the only manufacturer that does.

00:27:40 ◼   ► Every television that has a QD OLED screen comes from Samsung.

00:27:43 ◼   ► Samsung announced a 77 inch television.

00:27:46 ◼   ► Their naming scheme is not as good as LG's.

00:27:48 ◼   ► Last year was the S95B that came in 55 and 65.

00:27:52 ◼   ► Now you can get the S95C.

00:27:55 ◼   ► I get it.

00:27:56 ◼   ► You're incrementing the number.

00:27:57 ◼   ► What is the S?

00:27:58 ◼   ► What is the 95?

00:27:59 ◼   ► I don't get it.

00:28:00 ◼   ► series, which is sort of their lower end model.

00:28:03 ◼   ► So they bifurcated their entire line.

00:28:05 ◼   ► The S95C comes with what Samsung calls a one connect box

00:28:09 ◼   ► that they've had on their TVs for many years.

00:28:11 ◼   ► Do you have that on your frame as well, Marco?

00:28:13 ◼   ► - Is that, so the frame has, you run one skinny cable

00:28:18 ◼   ► to the TV and it goes down into this giant box

00:28:20 ◼   ► that has all the other ports on it that you hide

00:28:22 ◼   ► like in your entertainment center.

00:28:23 ◼   ► - That is the one connect box and that is exactly the idea.

00:28:27 ◼   ► It makes it easier to mount the TV

00:28:29 ◼   ► and you don't have to, I think it's actually a fiber optic

00:28:32 ◼   ► on the modern ones.

00:28:33 ◼   ► One little skinny cable goes to the TV

00:28:35 ◼   ► and there's a breakout box with everything else in it.

00:28:37 ◼   ► The power plug, the HDMI port, it's a good idea.

00:28:40 ◼   ► But Samsung puts it on another fancy TV.

00:28:42 ◼   ► So the S95C has the one connect box.

00:28:44 ◼   ► - I mean, I don't know how good, mine's buggy as hell.

00:28:46 ◼   ► We have two frame TVs, they're both buggy as hell.

00:28:49 ◼   ► I would never in a million years buy another one.

00:28:51 ◼   ► And I don't know if it's because of the electronics

00:28:53 ◼   ► being separated, probably not.

00:28:55 ◼   ► It's probably just 'cause Samsung sucks,

00:28:56 ◼   ► but man is it buggy as hell.

00:28:58 ◼   ► I would never do this again.

00:28:59 ◼   ► Yeah, I can't speak to the reliability of the One Connect box because obviously that's

00:29:02 ◼   ► some proprietary thing that they're doing with the fiber optic cable, right?

00:29:05 ◼   ► But in theory, the electronics that are in that box are the same as they would stick

00:29:08 ◼   ► on the back of the TV, so if they suck, they would probably also suck on the back of the

00:29:11 ◼   ► TV.

00:29:12 ◼   ► But anyway, their fancy line, S95C, has the One Connect box, and it also has bigger and

00:29:17 ◼   ► better speakers in the TV because now there's room for them.

00:29:19 ◼   ► They basically have speakers taking up the whole back of the TV with openings on the

00:29:23 ◼   ► back and everything for better bass.

00:29:25 ◼   ► So that's the S95C.

00:29:27 ◼   ► And the S90C doesn't have the One Connect box and it's more of the lower end model.

00:29:33 ◼   ► So they've split up their QD OLED line into the good ones that have features you might

00:29:37 ◼   ► not want like the One Connect.

00:29:39 ◼   ► That's a good one.

00:29:40 ◼   ► All right.

00:29:41 ◼   ► Speaking of One Connect box, LG has a product they call the Signature Series OLED TVs.

00:29:47 ◼   ► It's just a WRGB OLED, not a QD OLED.

00:29:50 ◼   ► And theirs are wireless.

00:29:52 ◼   ► There's a power plug that goes to the back of the television and there's a breakout box.

00:29:56 ◼   ► the breakout box communicates wirelessly.

00:29:59 ◼   ► They call theirs a zero connect box.

00:30:01 ◼   ► Isn't that clever?

00:30:02 ◼   ► - But it still has power, I mean, so what's the point?

00:30:05 ◼   ► - Well, the point is, it's a lot easier

00:30:07 ◼   ► to sort of mount the TV, like if you have to be like KC

00:30:09 ◼   ► and mount it way too high over your fireplace or whatever,

00:30:12 ◼   ► you just have to have power, you don't have to fish

00:30:14 ◼   ► HDMI cables through, or like, tellers have lots of ports

00:30:17 ◼   ► in the back of them that you might not want to connect.

00:30:18 ◼   ► - But I'm saying, like, when you have the one cable

00:30:20 ◼   ► that goes to the breakout box,

00:30:22 ◼   ► the way my stupid buggy Samsung ones do,

00:30:24 ◼   ► What's the difference if you have to run a power cable

00:30:27 ◼   ► to the TV or this cable to the TV?

00:30:30 ◼   ► - Right, well, lots of people have a power plug

00:30:32 ◼   ► near their television or behind

00:30:33 ◼   ► where they're gonna wall mount it,

00:30:35 ◼   ► but not a lot of people have the special

00:30:37 ◼   ► one connect fiber optic cables fished through their wall

00:30:40 ◼   ► to the box that they're gonna buy with the TV.

00:30:41 ◼   ► Not a lot of people have HDMI, or if they do have HDMI,

00:30:44 ◼   ► it's not the right standard for HDMI 2.1, whatever.

00:30:47 ◼   ► This is a silly rich person TV, right?

00:30:50 ◼   ► It's not a serious TV, but it is a real product.

00:30:52 ◼   ► It's 97 inches, it's probably horrendously expensive.

00:30:55 ◼   ► I just think it's interesting because they're sending

00:30:58 ◼   ► real full fledged, not compressed,

00:31:01 ◼   ► like full fidelity 4K 120 hertz video signal

00:31:06 ◼   ► to the television wirelessly up to 30 feet away.

00:31:09 ◼   ► I don't recommend this television,

00:31:11 ◼   ► I just think it's interesting that we've gotten

00:31:12 ◼   ► to the point where they can do that

00:31:13 ◼   ► on a silly rich person TV for people who, you know.

00:31:17 ◼   ► If you look at the pictures,

00:31:19 ◼   ► see how it's like the television itself

00:31:20 ◼   ► is on one of those awkward stands

00:31:21 ◼   ► that no normal person would have in their house, right?

00:31:24 ◼   ► It's just kind of like freestanding and alone.

00:31:26 ◼   ► That was to make fun of the fact

00:31:27 ◼   ► that they never show any power cables or anything else.

00:31:29 ◼   ► Well, you can see the cable in this picture.

00:31:31 ◼   ► It's just the power cable.

00:31:32 ◼   ► It goes down one of the legs

00:31:33 ◼   ► and that's the only cable you need to attach.

00:31:35 ◼   ► So finally, it's a realistic picture

00:31:37 ◼   ► and you just gotta find someplace to hide this box.

00:31:40 ◼   ► So there's that.

00:31:40 ◼   ► I just thought it was silly.

00:31:41 ◼   ► It's like the TVs, they have like a TV that rolls up

00:31:44 ◼   ► and all the silly rich people TVs are just fun to look at,

00:31:46 ◼   ► but they are real products they do sell

00:31:48 ◼   ► to real silly rich people.

00:31:51 ◼   ► More seriously from LG, their competition for QD OLED,

00:31:55 ◼   ► 'cause they kinda got trounced last year

00:31:57 ◼   ► by having, they didn't have a QD OLED TV,

00:31:59 ◼   ► they still don't have a QD OLED TV.

00:32:01 ◼   ► Well, what they have now is the Micro Lens Array.

00:32:05 ◼   ► They took their WRGB OLEDs, which are OLED TVs

00:32:08 ◼   ► that have a red, a green, and a blue sub-pixel,

00:32:11 ◼   ► and then also a big hunk and a white sub-pixel next to it.

00:32:14 ◼   ► They took that TV, and on top of each pixel,

00:32:18 ◼   ► they put tiny little microscopic lenses.

00:32:20 ◼   ► So on a 77 inch TV, every pixel has 5,117 lenses

00:32:24 ◼   ► on top of it.

00:32:26 ◼   ► - Every single pixel?

00:32:27 ◼   ► - Every single pixel.

00:32:28 ◼   ► There's a lot of pixels on a 4K TV.

00:32:30 ◼   ► - What?

00:32:31 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:32:32 ◼   ► They're micro lenses.

00:32:33 ◼   ► It's a junior mint.

00:32:34 ◼   ► It's refreshing.

00:32:37 ◼   ► All right.

00:32:38 ◼   ► You can look at some of the pictures.

00:32:39 ◼   ► So what's the point of these little lenses?

00:32:41 ◼   ► The point of the lenses is to take light

00:32:43 ◼   ► that would otherwise be lost to internal reflection

00:32:45 ◼   ► as light passes through the various glass layers

00:32:47 ◼   ► 'cause when you send light through, you know,

00:32:49 ◼   ► Anything there, you lose some of it due to internal

00:32:52 ◼   ► reflections of light that doesn't make it out

00:32:54 ◼   ► to people's eyeballs.

00:32:55 ◼   ► The micro lens array makes more of the light make it through

00:32:59 ◼   ► without losing less of it to internal reflection.

00:33:01 ◼   ► So you don't need to run your backlight,

00:33:03 ◼   ► or not backlight, you don't need to run your pixels brighter

00:33:05 ◼   ► you just get more of the light that you're producing

00:33:08 ◼   ► out to people's eyeballs.

00:33:10 ◼   ► And that is their competition for QD OLED.

00:33:12 ◼   ► You also get better viewing angles,

00:33:13 ◼   ► 'cause again more light is leaving the display

00:33:16 ◼   ► going to eyeballs and less of it is getting stuck

00:33:18 ◼   ► inside the display, less off-axis color tinting,

00:33:21 ◼   ► all of the things that were problems with WRGB OLEDs

00:33:24 ◼   ► that weren't problems with QD OLEDs,

00:33:26 ◼   ► they're combating that with the microlens array.

00:33:29 ◼   ► So it is brighter, the estimates are it'll be

00:33:31 ◼   ► about 1500 nits, 1500 calibrated nits on a 10% window.

00:33:35 ◼   ► When we say that we mean make a 16 by nine box

00:33:38 ◼   ► that is 10% the size of the TV,

00:33:40 ◼   ► that can be probably around 1500 nits.

00:33:43 ◼   ► Full screen, 200 nits.

00:33:44 ◼   ► This is what TVs have been like for years by the way,

00:33:46 ◼   ► if you don't know.

00:33:47 ◼   ► make the entire screen white you get 200 nits right if you make a 10% window white 1500 nits

00:33:54 ◼   ► this is relying on the fact that most real television content is not like 100% white but

00:33:58 ◼   ► that scene in the matrix is pretty close so just keep that in mind this is an increase from last

00:34:03 ◼   ► year's model last year's best lg model was 933 nits on a 10 window and 172 full field so this

00:34:10 ◼   ► is a big jump in brightness thanks to all those little tiny lenses um obviously you'll have to

00:34:16 ◼   ► have to wait for reviewers to get these TVs to compare them.

00:34:20 ◼   ► Samsung's QD OLEDs are also brighter this year,

00:34:23 ◼   ► so it'll be quite a competition.

00:34:26 ◼   ► Obviously, the things QD OLEDs still have going for them

00:34:28 ◼   ► is they don't need a bunch of little microlenses

00:34:30 ◼   ► because they're just naturally better at putting out light

00:34:33 ◼   ► because they have fewer layers to go through.

00:34:35 ◼   ► And the part that produces the light

00:34:36 ◼   ► is literally physically closer to the surface.

00:34:39 ◼   ► They have naturally good viewing angles.

00:34:41 ◼   ► And their brightness doesn't rely on the white subpixels.

00:34:44 ◼   ► So while you can get some, you know,

00:34:46 ◼   ► a 10% window at 1500 nits that's pure white,

00:34:49 ◼   ► you cannot get a 10% window at 1500 nits that's pure red,

00:34:52 ◼   ► because that white sub pixel

00:34:53 ◼   ► is doing a huge amount of the work.

00:34:54 ◼   ► If you add up the brightness of the R, G, and B sub pixels

00:34:58 ◼   ► in a QD OLED, you get the white, you know,

00:35:00 ◼   ► the full brightness.

00:35:01 ◼   ► If you add up the R, the G, and the B sub pixels

00:35:04 ◼   ► on a WRGB OLED, you get like 10% of the brightness.

00:35:06 ◼   ► Most of it is that white sub pixel,

00:35:08 ◼   ► which tends to wash out colors.

00:35:09 ◼   ► So I still feel like QD OLED is the future

00:35:12 ◼   ► and is the better technology,

00:35:13 ◼   ► but kudos to LG for finding a way to get way more brightness

00:35:18 ◼   ► out of their TVs and come up with a technology

00:35:22 ◼   ► that should make, I feel like, their top end TVs competitive

00:35:25 ◼   ► with QD OLEDs this year, we'll see.

00:35:26 ◼   ► Second to last, Samsung's, I'm not gonna say

00:35:31 ◼   ► like silly concept car thing 'cause these are real products,

00:35:34 ◼   ► but they're real products for fabulously rich people.

00:35:37 ◼   ► Micro LED, every year you see micro LED at CES

00:35:40 ◼   ► because it is the best technology.

00:35:42 ◼   ► This is non-organic LEDs,

00:35:45 ◼   ► where every single pixel has a little red LED,

00:35:47 ◼   ► a little white LED, and a little green, not red,

00:35:51 ◼   ► red, green, and blue, right, RGB.

00:35:53 ◼   ► Which is unlike the current ones,

00:35:56 ◼   ► which just use a single LED that they pass

00:35:58 ◼   ► through their color filters or quantum dots or whatever.

00:36:01 ◼   ► No burn-in problems, instant response,

00:36:04 ◼   ► and no white sub-pixel, amazing viewing angles.

00:36:07 ◼   ► This is the promised land of television technology.

00:36:11 ◼   ► it also costs like 30 grand, right?

00:36:14 ◼   ► And the big problem with micro LED TVs has been,

00:36:17 ◼   ► we can't make the little LEDs micro enough.

00:36:20 ◼   ► So you see them in stadiums all the time,

00:36:21 ◼   ► like those big screens that like a basketball game,

00:36:24 ◼   ► those are not really particularly micro,

00:36:26 ◼   ► but those are LED screens.

00:36:27 ◼   ► They have red, green and blue LEDs for each pixel.

00:36:30 ◼   ► Making them small is really, really hard

00:36:32 ◼   ► because we can't make,

00:36:34 ◼   ► we can't economically make a bunch of tiny little LEDs.

00:36:37 ◼   ► So the way manufacturers have been making these

00:36:39 ◼   ► for years and years is they make

00:36:41 ◼   ► sort of like a sub board,

00:36:43 ◼   ► is a micro LED thing with a certain number of pixels,

00:36:46 ◼   ► and then they checkerboard those things together

00:36:48 ◼   ► to make a complete TV, right?

00:36:49 ◼   ► Because they can't make one board the size of a TV.

00:36:53 ◼   ► They can just make a bunch of sub boards

00:36:55 ◼   ► and put them together so you can't see the seams, right?

00:36:58 ◼   ► And the problem has been the smallest one you get

00:37:00 ◼   ► is 300 inches, and then the next year

00:37:02 ◼   ► the smallest one you get was 200 inches,

00:37:04 ◼   ► and the next year the smallest one you get was 100 inches.

00:37:06 ◼   ► By the way, they always cost like 10 grand,

00:37:07 ◼   ► 30 grand or whatever, right?

00:37:08 ◼   ► but you just couldn't make them small enough.

00:37:11 ◼   ► Well, this year, Samsung was showing micro LED TVs

00:37:15 ◼   ► in sizes from 50 inches up to 140 inches.

00:37:18 ◼   ► Those are real TV sizes.

00:37:19 ◼   ► So from a tech perspective,

00:37:22 ◼   ► we can now make micro LED TVs

00:37:25 ◼   ► in the sizes humans can fit in their homes.

00:37:28 ◼   ► Just not at the prices humans can afford to buy them.

00:37:31 ◼   ► I don't even think there were prices attached to these.

00:37:33 ◼   ► You know, it's one of those kind of,

00:37:34 ◼   ► if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

00:37:35 ◼   ► But anyway, the sizes that come in are weird.

00:37:37 ◼   ► It's 50, 63, 76, 89, 101, 114, and 140 inches.

00:37:42 ◼   ► And those sizes are a result of basically the size

00:37:45 ◼   ► of the little unit, the little checkerboard thing.

00:37:49 ◼   ► When you stick a bunch of those together

00:37:51 ◼   ► to make 16 by nine display,

00:37:52 ◼   ► these are the inch sizes you end up with.

00:37:54 ◼   ► But they're 240 hertz, they're low power,

00:37:56 ◼   ► they have amazing color, phenomenal brightness,

00:37:59 ◼   ► no image retention ever.

00:38:01 ◼   ► I can't wait for this technology to arrive.

00:38:03 ◼   ► Hopefully we will have affordable micro LED TVs

00:38:06 ◼   ► before my eyes get so bad that I can't appreciate them.

00:38:09 ◼   ► - Hey, wasn't there a rumor just a few days ago

00:38:11 ◼   ► that the next, or that an upcoming Apple Watch

00:38:14 ◼   ► will probably use micro LED?

00:38:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, there's been micro LED Apple Watch rumors

00:38:18 ◼   ► for about five years.

00:38:19 ◼   ► Micro LED, I mean, it's not like all the technology

00:38:21 ◼   ► is never gonna come, 'cause every year at CES

00:38:23 ◼   ► the micro LED TVs get better and better.

00:38:25 ◼   ► But yeah, the rumor that Apple's gonna use them

00:38:27 ◼   ► in some device someday, they will eventually,

00:38:29 ◼   ► but they don't even have OLEDs on their laptops yet.

00:38:31 ◼   ► So let's, you know.

00:38:32 ◼   ► - Wait, wasn't the factory that they did the,

00:38:35 ◼   ► like they bought a factory in Arizona,

00:38:38 ◼   ► and then the whole deal fell apart,

00:38:39 ◼   ► and so wasn't that for micro LED?

00:38:41 ◼   ► - I think one of those was for quartz for something,

00:38:43 ◼   ► like the display quartz or whatever,

00:38:45 ◼   ► but they did make a big investment in micro,

00:38:47 ◼   ► everyone's investing in micro LED,

00:38:49 ◼   ► everyone knows this is the next step,

00:38:51 ◼   ► and it like, all the different things that I talk about,

00:38:53 ◼   ► of these TVs doing stuff so they don't suck as much,

00:38:56 ◼   ► QD OLED was the most recent big step,

00:38:59 ◼   ► look at all the crap we don't have to do,

00:39:00 ◼   ► no white subpixel, we don't lose light

00:39:02 ◼   ► by cutting through color filters,

00:39:03 ◼   ► amazing viewing angle, low power, thin,

00:39:06 ◼   ► but you still have image retention

00:39:08 ◼   ► and you can't get as bright as an LED backlight, right?

00:39:10 ◼   ► So there's always caveats.

00:39:12 ◼   ► Micro LED, the only caveats were,

00:39:15 ◼   ► we have to make a bunch of small ones

00:39:16 ◼   ► and stick them together so you might see the seams

00:39:18 ◼   ► and we can't make them that small.

00:39:19 ◼   ► And they're working on those.

00:39:20 ◼   ► So the size, we've got it.

00:39:22 ◼   ► 50 inch micro LED 4K televisions at 240 Hertz.

00:39:26 ◼   ► It's gonna happen, maybe in the next five years.

00:39:29 ◼   ► Stay tuned.

00:39:31 ◼   ► And the final item that I thought was interesting,

00:39:33 ◼   ► second to last actually. Roku is making TVs. Roku makes those little set-top boxes and if you have

00:39:38 ◼   ► a TCL TV it probably has Roku built in, you got a little Roku remote. Roku is making TVs but the

00:39:43 ◼   ► TVs will be manufactured by TCL but currently a lot of the TVs that TCL makes that have Roku built

00:39:51 ◼   ► into them are designed by Roku and Roku just basically hands TCL a design for a TV and then

00:39:56 ◼   ► TCL makes it. So now Roku is making its own TVs which have Roku built in but they're being

00:40:01 ◼   ► being manufactured by TCL, it's confusing.

00:40:03 ◼   ► But it's kind of like if Netflix started making TVs,

00:40:07 ◼   ► no, maybe not Netflix, it's our streaming service.

00:40:09 ◼   ► But Roku is one of the few sort of competitors

00:40:11 ◼   ► remaining standing in the software that runs your TV.

00:40:15 ◼   ► You've got WebOS, Google TV, Apple TV, Roku.

00:40:18 ◼   ► What am I missing?

00:40:20 ◼   ► - Amazon.

00:40:20 ◼   ► - Fire TV, yeah.

00:40:22 ◼   ► Amazon is kind of losing steam.

00:40:25 ◼   ► And then I think, didn't Amazon also make a TV,

00:40:27 ◼   ► like an Alexa TV type thing?

00:40:28 ◼   ► - I believe that's right.

00:40:29 ◼   ► - I recently bought a new tailgate TV.

00:40:31 ◼   ► So this is a TV that basically has to be not impressive.

00:40:36 ◼   ► It just needs to be relatively light and cheap.

00:40:38 ◼   ► - This might be, by the way,

00:40:40 ◼   ► the most Southern thing you've ever said.

00:40:42 ◼   ► I just bought a tailgate TV.

00:40:45 ◼   ► - I'm flummoxed because I don't have a good retort for this

00:40:47 ◼   ► 'cause you're probably right.

00:40:49 ◼   ► Anyway, the one we bought, I think it was like $110.

00:40:54 ◼   ► It's like a 32 inch.

00:40:55 ◼   ► I don't remember if it's 720 or 1080,

00:40:58 ◼   ► 'cause again, it doesn't matter.

00:40:59 ◼   ► We're gonna be looking at it outdoors.

00:41:01 ◼   ► But anyways, it's a Amazon Fire TV.

00:41:04 ◼   ► I think it was, it's whatever the insignia maybe,

00:41:07 ◼   ► which is I think the Best Buy store brand,

00:41:09 ◼   ► and the only reason I went to Best Buy

00:41:10 ◼   ► was 'cause it was dirt cheap.

00:41:12 ◼   ► But yeah, so that one is an Amazon Fire TV,

00:41:15 ◼   ► and it is not great.

00:41:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, I feel like Amazon is kind of losing,

00:41:19 ◼   ► losing the interest in that market,

00:41:22 ◼   ► and Amazon's kind of consolidating a lot of stuff,

00:41:24 ◼   ► so I'm not sure how long they're gonna be there,

00:41:26 ◼   ► but yeah, they do have a TV OS.

00:41:28 ◼   ► So and the final thing is Sony.

00:41:30 ◼   ► Sony is at CES, but they're mostly

00:41:31 ◼   ► showing PlayStation stuff and their stupid car

00:41:34 ◼   ► that we'll talk about someday and are on the show

00:41:35 ◼   ► because it's been in the show notes forever.

00:41:38 ◼   ► They weren't showing TVs.

00:41:40 ◼   ► I will put a link in the show notes to a YouTube video

00:41:42 ◼   ► from someone who tries to explain why this is.

00:41:44 ◼   ► They have new TVs that are coming.

00:41:46 ◼   ► The theory of this person is,

00:41:49 ◼   ► and probably an informed theory is,

00:41:51 ◼   ► they just didn't feel like talking about them at CES

00:41:53 ◼   ► because they fancy themselves being in the Apple position.

00:41:57 ◼   ► Apple famously does not go to CES, hasn't for decades at this point, because Apple doesn't

00:42:03 ◼   ► have to.

00:42:04 ◼   ► Apple doesn't need to be at a place where media attention is focused, they just make

00:42:08 ◼   ► their own events and tell people to show up and that's all.

00:42:11 ◼   ► Sony apparently doesn't feel like they have to show their televisions here because they'll

00:42:15 ◼   ► just show them in a couple weeks and then when that happens they'll be the only story.

00:42:20 ◼   ► Instead of just being slotted in with 50 other stories about what's going on at CES it'll

00:42:23 ◼   ► be "Oh, the new Sony TVs are out now."

00:42:25 ◼   ► I think this is the first year Sony has tried that move so we'll see how it works out.

00:42:29 ◼   ► The bad news is that I don't get to know what new TVs Sony has but the good news is that

00:42:34 ◼   ► they don't make their own panels.

00:42:36 ◼   ► They sell QD OLED TVs.

00:42:38 ◼   ► They're going to have one of the new QD OLED panels.

00:42:41 ◼   ► Panasonic already has TVs announced with the new QD OLED panels and people are testing

00:42:44 ◼   ► those and Sony's going to get the same exact panels.

00:42:47 ◼   ► It's such a shame that Panasonic doesn't sell TVs in the US anymore because they make such

00:42:51 ◼   ► good TVs.

00:42:52 ◼   ► I might have bought a Panasonic if they still sold here because their tastes tend to align

00:42:55 ◼   ► with mine. But yeah, Sony is just trying to, you know, be its own story at some point in

00:43:05 ◼   ► a few weeks rather than announcing at the show, which is kind of weird. And it's also

00:43:09 ◼   ► weird that they showed a car, but again, we'll talk about that in a future program.

00:43:12 ◼   ► So does this make you regret your semi-recent TV purchase? Is there something that you see

00:43:16 ◼   ► here that you think you could feasibly, that you would feasibly purchase if it was available

00:43:21 ◼   ► today?

00:43:22 ◼   ► It actually makes me glad because in particular Samsung splitting its line

00:43:26 ◼   ► Into like the the best stuff is only on the thing with the one connect box with the weird

00:43:31 ◼   ► You know

00:43:31 ◼   ► Like I don't I don't like that they split the line like that because last year the TV is the best TVs

00:43:37 ◼   ► We're just like normal person TVs. No weird breakout box. No weird super thin design, you know

00:43:42 ◼   ► Not the one that's sold without a stand, right?

00:43:44 ◼   ► They were just regular TVs with regular TV features and this year

00:43:48 ◼   ► Samsung splitting the line it would make it hard for me to choose among them and maybe Sony will do the same thing

00:43:53 ◼   ► Whereas last year it was easy Sony a95k if you have my set of values of what you want out of TV

00:43:59 ◼   ► That was the one to get I'm sure when Sony comes out with new TVs

00:44:03 ◼   ► They'll have one that is better than my TV, but not enough for me to want to upgrade like I'll you know

00:44:08 ◼   ► Considering how long I get my plasma

00:44:10 ◼   ► I'm gonna be riding this a95k probably until something goes terribly wrong with it

00:44:14 ◼   ► And then maybe I'll replace it with a micro LED

00:44:17 ◼   ► But no I'm interested in the market because display technology is super important and it will affect all of our devices eventually

00:44:23 ◼   ► I just feel like Apple is

00:44:25 ◼   ► Not that they're lagging behind because the displays on the laptops in particular are phenomenal like those mini LED screens have amazing specs and look

00:44:32 ◼   ► Great, and I think are the right choice

00:44:34 ◼   ► Especially for a computer screen where I just think OLED

00:44:37 ◼   ► You know OLED is not great because you got image retention and in particular QD OLED with its

00:44:42 ◼   ► The sub pixels are arranged in a triangle it screws with like text display

00:44:47 ◼   ► Even if you don't do some pixel ID aliasing which Apple doesn't it just doesn't quite look right on a computer display

00:44:52 ◼   ► It looks a little bit weird. So I

00:44:54 ◼   ► Don't know what the answer is. But all this all this television technology will eventually affect all of our devices

00:45:00 ◼   ► Already we've got OLED screens on our phones and that's been pretty great. I think I want an OLED screen on my iPad someday

00:45:07 ◼   ► will have micro LED screens on all our Apple devices.

00:45:10 ◼   ► The TV world is kind of a preview of that

00:45:12 ◼   ► in terms of manufacturability pricing and what they can do.

00:45:15 ◼   ► So even though I'm not in the market for a TV

00:45:18 ◼   ► and none of these TVs particularly tempt me,

00:45:20 ◼   ► I do like keeping up on it.

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00:47:08 ◼   ► - All right, there's been some new news

00:47:14 ◼   ► over the last few days that apparently,

00:47:17 ◼   ► Qi 2 is being worked on, and I guess it's just MagSafe?

00:47:22 ◼   ► That's what everyone seems to be saying

00:47:24 ◼   ► from an article from The Verge.

00:47:26 ◼   ► With the blessing of competitors,

00:47:28 ◼   ► Apple is about to change the Qi wireless standard itself.

00:47:32 ◼   ► It's contributing a new version of Qi that works much like MagSafe, magnets, authentication,

00:47:37 ◼   ► and all.

00:47:38 ◼   ► It's called Qi 2, and yes, it effectively means that MagSafe is coming to Android for

00:47:41 ◼   ► better or for worse.

00:47:42 ◼   ► Samsung and Apple are both expected to put Qi 2 certified products on the market, wireless

00:47:45 ◼   ► power consortium spokesperson Paul Golden tells The Verge, and he says there's no reason

00:47:50 ◼   ► to think future Qi 2 certified chargers wouldn't work with both.

00:47:53 ◼   ► There's also no reason to think a future Qi 2 charger wouldn't work seamlessly and identically

00:47:57 ◼   ► with both Android and iPhones, he says when I ask.

00:48:01 ◼   ► That's because Apple, a WPC "steering member" and a chair of the board of directors, is

00:48:06 ◼   ► contributing essentially the same magnetic power profile as MagSafe to the new Qi 2 standard.

00:48:10 ◼   ► I also read somewhere in here though that the magnets, apparently the arrangement is

00:48:14 ◼   ► ever so slightly different.

00:48:15 ◼   ► I don't have a pull quote for you right off the top of my head, but I guess the magnet

00:48:18 ◼   ► array is, or arrangement is slightly different on Qi 2, which makes me and The Verge wonder,

00:48:24 ◼   ► does that mean it won't be compatible with the iPhone that we have today?

00:48:27 ◼   ► Like how is that going to work? Nobody knows, but I think it just might be an

00:48:30 ◼   ► improvement, like a 2.0. Like if you look at one of the points that is made in

00:48:34 ◼   ► this article is that a kind of unlike, well, maybe it's not unlike, you know,

00:48:37 ◼   ► they, they made for iPhone thing where you'd have a lighting connectors and

00:48:40 ◼   ► stuff where you had to like do it the right way.

00:48:42 ◼   ► You had to sort of get the lighting connectors through Apple or certified

00:48:46 ◼   ► battle or whatever, but you could also say, ah, we don't care about that.

00:48:49 ◼   ► We can figure it out. Let's just make something that works in the lightning

00:48:51 ◼   ► Right, but here we're making a charger. We don't want to pay whatever Apple is charging to use the the official lightning thing

00:48:57 ◼   ► With mag safe that has happened even more. It's a ring of magnets cheap case manufacturer

00:49:04 ◼   ► Like look, I don't whatever you have to do to like certify that your mag safe compatible and use the like

00:49:09 ◼   ► Let's not do any of those just put a ring of magnets and it you can find it. Does it work?

00:49:13 ◼   ► It more or less works like the car mount that I have. I don't think that's mag safe certified

00:49:18 ◼   ► it was like a $20 car amount.

00:49:20 ◼   ► It's a circle with magnets in it

00:49:21 ◼   ► that's roughly the size that it has to be.

00:49:24 ◼   ► I think if they make changes to the magnet arrangement,

00:49:26 ◼   ► it's gonna be like that where,

00:49:28 ◼   ► yeah, it is different, but it's close enough

00:49:31 ◼   ► and it'll work and your thing will stick to it.

00:49:34 ◼   ► And we know from the battery packs

00:49:36 ◼   ► and stuff that you buy for phones,

00:49:37 ◼   ► some of them attach more strongly than others

00:49:39 ◼   ► 'cause they use maybe bigger magnets,

00:49:40 ◼   ► thicker magnets, stronger magnets.

00:49:43 ◼   ► Additional magnets, layers of magnets,

00:49:45 ◼   ► it's not the type of thing where

00:49:48 ◼   ► like a wire protocol where either it works or it doesn't,

00:49:51 ◼   ► you just kinda have to have the magnets

00:49:52 ◼   ► in the neighborhood.

00:49:54 ◼   ► So I think whatever Qi2 ends up being,

00:49:57 ◼   ► I would expect it to work well enough

00:50:00 ◼   ► with all of our existing MagSafe stuff.

00:50:02 ◼   ► - I mean, it can't be that much worse than Qi1, right?

00:50:04 ◼   ► I mean, I think this is good news in the sense

00:50:09 ◼   ► that MagSafe really was and is an improvement over Qi.

00:50:15 ◼   ► Now, Qi charging has a lot of upsides,

00:50:18 ◼   ► but it has a couple of really big annoyances.

00:50:20 ◼   ► Number one is that it's super slow,

00:50:22 ◼   ► and I guess number one be that it's also super inefficient,

00:50:25 ◼   ► which maybe should be a number two.

00:50:27 ◼   ► This is why we run a show called Top Four

00:50:29 ◼   ► that never has four entries.

00:50:30 ◼   ► (both laughing)

00:50:32 ◼   ► So anyway, yeah, so it's super slow,

00:50:34 ◼   ► it's super inefficient, and we've all had that experience

00:50:38 ◼   ► of having a Qi charging mat next to our bed or something

00:50:41 ◼   ► and thinking our phone is charging on it overnight,

00:50:44 ◼   ► and you wake up and you realize,

00:50:46 ◼   ► oh, it wasn't quite aligned right

00:50:48 ◼   ► and my phone didn't charge overnight.

00:50:50 ◼   ► And MagSafe improves that.

00:50:54 ◼   ► It improves it by a decent amount.

00:50:57 ◼   ► All of those problems are still there though.

00:51:00 ◼   ► It is still slow, MagSafe just makes it less slow.

00:51:04 ◼   ► Part of the reason it makes it less slow

00:51:06 ◼   ► is that the magnets align it correctly

00:51:08 ◼   ► much more of the time and it has that kind

00:51:10 ◼   ► of communication mechanism where it can verify.

00:51:12 ◼   ► Like I know we've also maybe had,

00:51:15 ◼   ► I don't know if you've ever had the experience

00:51:16 ◼   ► of placing a metal object on a Chi-Mat accidentally,

00:51:20 ◼   ► coming back a little while later

00:51:22 ◼   ► and it's maybe a little warmer

00:51:24 ◼   ► than you would like for comfort.

00:51:25 ◼   ► I have, that's not fun.

00:51:27 ◼   ► And MagSafe, I think part of the reason

00:51:30 ◼   ► why it doesn't deliver its 15 watts of max power

00:51:34 ◼   ► to everything is that there is some kind of

00:51:36 ◼   ► like authentication mechanism where it communicates

00:51:38 ◼   ► and makes sure that what's on the other end of that thing

00:51:41 ◼   ► as a device and not like a Yeti cup.

00:51:43 ◼   ► So, I speak from experience. (laughs)

00:51:47 ◼   ► - Cheat chargers are not coasters.

00:51:49 ◼   ► - No, although they are cup warmers

00:51:51 ◼   ► if your cup is a Yeti cup.

00:51:53 ◼   ► Not recommended.

00:51:54 ◼   ► - Don't put your Yeti cup on your induction stove either.

00:51:56 ◼   ► This is all the same thing.

00:51:57 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:51:57 ◼   ► - Like electricity and magnetism.

00:51:59 ◼   ► - Right.

00:52:00 ◼   ► Yeah, anyway.

00:52:01 ◼   ► So, you know, having MagSafe be incorporated

00:52:05 ◼   ► into the Cheat, you know, we already know what this does.

00:52:07 ◼   ► The automatic alignment of the magnets

00:52:10 ◼   ► does enable more efficient charging,

00:52:13 ◼   ► 'cause you don't have to worry like,

00:52:14 ◼   ► well, we can still send power to this

00:52:16 ◼   ► even though it's only 70% in the target zone,

00:52:19 ◼   ► we'll just kinda fudge it with induction

00:52:21 ◼   ► and we'll lose more to heat

00:52:22 ◼   ► and it'll charge more slowly, but oh well.

00:52:24 ◼   ► MagSafe takes care of that to a degree.

00:52:26 ◼   ► It also, by having the alignment,

00:52:30 ◼   ► reduces the error rate of,

00:52:32 ◼   ► I think my phone charged overnight,

00:52:34 ◼   ► and then it actually didn't.

00:52:35 ◼   ► Now, it doesn't actually eliminate that error rate.

00:52:38 ◼   ► I know this from using a MagSafe glued to my end table,

00:52:42 ◼   ► or double-sided taped to my end table,

00:52:45 ◼   ► every night for the last three years.

00:52:48 ◼   ► I know that I still occasionally have times

00:52:50 ◼   ► where I think I feel it clip on,

00:52:53 ◼   ► but then I wake up the next morning and oh,

00:52:54 ◼   ► it was actually not all the way on and it didn't charge.

00:52:57 ◼   ► But it happens way less often with MagSafe

00:53:00 ◼   ► than it did with the flat Qi thing I had before.

00:53:03 ◼   ► So MagSafe is better than Qi,

00:53:06 ◼   ► and so it does make sense

00:53:08 ◼   ► to modify Qi to incorporate magnets

00:53:11 ◼   ► in basically the same way.

00:53:13 ◼   ► And this is not the only time this has ever happened.

00:53:16 ◼   ► USB-C itself was heavily contributed to by Apple

00:53:21 ◼   ► because the PC world, we see what they do

00:53:24 ◼   ► when they make a port without Apple's input.

00:53:27 ◼   ► That's how you get the USB-3 Micro B plug.

00:53:32 ◼   ► - Or USB-A, the connector everyone loves to hate.

00:53:36 ◼   ► - Externally symmetrical, internally asymmetrical.

00:53:39 ◼   ► It's like a cruel joke.

00:53:40 ◼   ► - Right. (laughing)

00:53:41 ◼   ► So anyway, so this is a good thing.

00:53:44 ◼   ► And you're right that it does effectively

00:53:47 ◼   ► kind of formalize what the industry

00:53:50 ◼   ► was already unofficially doing.

00:53:52 ◼   ► There's so many third party things that are like,

00:53:55 ◼   ► it's magnetic charging.

00:53:57 ◼   ► And you know, they don't say MagSafe.

00:53:59 ◼   ► It's magnetic charging compatible with your iPhone,

00:54:01 ◼   ► but it'll only be 7.5 watts, whatever, you know.

00:54:04 ◼   ► those are all just imitation MagSafe things.

00:54:06 ◼   ► So it makes sense to have this be part of the ecosystem.

00:54:09 ◼   ► The only thing that I would pour a little bit of water on is

00:54:13 ◼   ► this is not, this is still not gonna be better

00:54:17 ◼   ► than wired charging in certain ways.

00:54:20 ◼   ► We know, first of all, wired charging

00:54:22 ◼   ► can still be higher power, it's still more efficient,

00:54:25 ◼   ► and it's still, in some ways, safer.

00:54:28 ◼   ► It still allows data transfer, which this doesn't really.

00:54:31 ◼   ► So wired charging is still gonna exist

00:54:34 ◼   ► and still be popular, it's also cheaper.

00:54:36 ◼   ► So you know, it's still gonna exist for a while.

00:54:38 ◼   ► But this is a good thing to formalize and unify

00:54:43 ◼   ► what is a fairly obvious improvement to the Qi standard.

00:54:49 ◼   ► And hopefully unify iOS and Android devices

00:54:52 ◼   ► into using the same thing and all the benefits that brings.

00:54:56 ◼   ► - And look, it happened without government intervention.

00:54:59 ◼   ► And I say that both to blame the government

00:55:01 ◼   ► and to blame Apple.

00:55:02 ◼   ► 'Cause see, Apple, if you just get off your butt

00:55:04 ◼   ► and do what's good for the industry,

00:55:05 ◼   ► you avoid government regulation, I would say,

00:55:07 ◼   ► and see government eventually,

00:55:09 ◼   ► even pigheaded companies like Apple will see the light

00:55:12 ◼   ► and unify it on a standard.

00:55:14 ◼   ► And on the USB-C front, like as you said,

00:55:16 ◼   ► this doesn't, you know, is this how Apple's gonna comply

00:55:19 ◼   ► with the USB-C, they're just gonna do MagSafe ever?

00:55:21 ◼   ► They could, but they would have to add substantial

00:55:24 ◼   ► data transfer to MagSafe probably,

00:55:27 ◼   ► or have some other way to do data transfer wirelessly.

00:55:29 ◼   ► It would be a big complication

00:55:31 ◼   ► if they went totally portless.

00:55:32 ◼   ► I mean, there's been rumors of that for ages.

00:55:34 ◼   ► I don't think Chichu factors into it any more so

00:55:38 ◼   ► than just to say that Apple is clearly very dedicated

00:55:40 ◼   ► to the MagSafe connector and it will continue to exist

00:55:42 ◼   ► on phones and maybe even other devices in the future

00:55:45 ◼   ► because it's not going anywhere.

00:55:47 ◼   ► But yeah, standardizing on it for everybody.

00:55:49 ◼   ► It already was standardized.

00:55:52 ◼   ► Like USB-C was everywhere except Apple.

00:55:55 ◼   ► It's kind of like electric car connectors.

00:55:57 ◼   ► It's standardized everywhere except Tesla

00:56:00 ◼   ► and kind of Nissan still.

00:56:02 ◼   ► But, you know, it's like, so we're so close.

00:56:05 ◼   ► And so that's why all these laws

00:56:06 ◼   ► are essentially Apple laws,

00:56:07 ◼   ► or if there's ever a law about it for chargers in the US,

00:56:09 ◼   ► it'll be the Tesla law, right?

00:56:11 ◼   ► Because we don't need any law to force standardization.

00:56:13 ◼   ► It happened on its own,

00:56:15 ◼   ► except for one pretty darn important player,

00:56:17 ◼   ► whether that be Apple or Tesla.

00:56:19 ◼   ► So at least on the wireless charging front,

00:56:24 ◼   ► we didn't have to wait for that.

00:56:25 ◼   ► Apparently everyone got their acts together.

00:56:27 ◼   ► And it's kind of a shame, like I said,

00:56:29 ◼   ► Apple was heavily involved in USB-C.

00:56:31 ◼   ► is just they did Lightning first.

00:56:33 ◼   ► And I think they should have done Lightning first.

00:56:35 ◼   ► We enjoyed the benefits of Lightning for years

00:56:37 ◼   ► before the rest of the industry won USBC,

00:56:39 ◼   ► but now it's time.

00:56:41 ◼   ► - The other thing about Qi2 too is,

00:56:43 ◼   ► Qi2 also, is that it presents the possibility,

00:56:48 ◼   ► although they're vague on the details,

00:56:51 ◼   ► and of course Apple's not saying anything,

00:56:53 ◼   ► that maybe in the future, the Apple Watch

00:56:57 ◼   ► and other smart watches that have non-flat

00:57:00 ◼   ► or smaller contact areas than what we currently use for Qi

00:57:04 ◼   ► could possibly be charged by some kind of part

00:57:06 ◼   ► of the Qi 2 standard.

00:57:07 ◼   ► I really hope that plays out because right now,

00:57:11 ◼   ► the ideal case would be if you're traveling or something,

00:57:14 ◼   ► you could have basically one type of charger with you.

00:57:18 ◼   ► Again, you see the USB-C versus lighting debate

00:57:20 ◼   ► for years, right?

00:57:21 ◼   ► Ideally, you have one type of charger

00:57:23 ◼   ► and you can use as many devices with it as possible.

00:57:25 ◼   ► Smart watches throw a whole wrench in that

00:57:28 ◼   ► because they don't have any ports

00:57:29 ◼   ► and they're so small, whether it's an Apple Watch

00:57:33 ◼   ► or the other ones, they all have these,

00:57:35 ◼   ► usually they have custom induction-based charger techniques

00:57:38 ◼   ► or something or maybe little pins on the side

00:57:40 ◼   ► that you have like little flat custom plug

00:57:43 ◼   ► that mag saves onto them or whatever.

00:57:45 ◼   ► So there's all these different charging techniques

00:57:47 ◼   ► for these super small devices that are too small

00:57:49 ◼   ► to have Qi or even oftentimes USB.

00:57:53 ◼   ► So if Qi 2 has good provisions in it

00:57:56 ◼   ► to allow smaller devices to maybe unify in something,

00:58:01 ◼   ► whether it's an Apple Watch or a Fitbit

00:58:04 ◼   ► or Garmin things or whatever else,

00:58:06 ◼   ► that would be fantastic.

00:58:08 ◼   ► I really, really hope that's part of it

00:58:11 ◼   ► and I really hope Apple's on board with that

00:58:13 ◼   ► and moves in that direction,

00:58:15 ◼   ► but I know better than to get my hopes up too far on that.

00:58:20 ◼   ► We are brought to you this week by Collide.

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00:59:34 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Collide for sponsoring our show.

00:59:37 ◼   ► - All right, we got email a few days back,

00:59:43 ◼   ► maybe a week or two back, I forget exactly when this was,

00:59:46 ◼   ► Kevin Chen, who has spent some time looking at how rewind.ai works. To remind you, rewind.ai

00:59:54 ◼   ► is John's favorite thing. LIFESTREAM! And it's the thing that will record everything that happens on

01:00:01 ◼   ► your Mac, and it will let you search for it, and so on and so forth. So Kevin spent some time

01:00:05 ◼   ► going through and figuring out how it works. Now, I can't confirm or deny anything that Kevin said,

01:00:10 ◼   ► but it rings true to me based on what I know about these sorts of things. It sounds like this is

01:00:15 ◼   ► is accurate. So we're not going to read Kevin's post. It is worth reading for the record,

01:00:20 ◼   ► but I'm just going to kind of quickly hit the highlights. What ends up happening is

01:00:25 ◼   ► Rewind uses accessibility APIs to identify the front-most window, and it stores the timestamps

01:00:31 ◼   ► of I guess when the window changes in a SQLite database in the user's library folder. I wonder

01:00:36 ◼   ► if they're using Blackbird. You never know. It takes a screenshot of the screen that contains

01:00:41 ◼   ► the front-most window, and if there are multiple screens, only the currently focused screen

01:00:45 ◼   ► will be captured.

01:00:46 ◼   ► A new screenshot is created every two seconds.

01:00:50 ◼   ► And then it uses Screen Capture Kit, which we'll put a link in

01:00:53 ◼   ► the show notes, to hide disallowed windows, including

01:00:57 ◼   ► private browser windows and a user-defined exclusion list.

01:01:00 ◼   ► Then it will OCR the screenshot on device using

01:01:04 ◼   ► Apple's Vision Framework, the same pipeline that powers live

01:01:07 ◼   ► text, and masquerade as well.

01:01:09 ◼   ► And then it'll store the inference results to a SQLite

01:01:12 ◼   ► database.

01:01:13 ◼   ► it then periodically compresses the screenshot sequence into an h.264 video with what, gentlemen?

01:01:19 ◼   ► They have incredibly, well, I'm not gonna say incredibly inefficient, yeah, FFmpeg,

01:01:23 ◼   ► and I was surprised to see that because Apple has tons of libraries to compress video. Maybe they

01:01:30 ◼   ► don't have ones that take images as input, but there was a question I think in the blog post

01:01:34 ◼   ► from some people, "Does FFmpeg use the h.264 hardware in all of Apple's computers?"

01:01:41 ◼   ► - I just thought it did.

01:01:42 ◼   ► I'm not certain about that, but I thought it did.

01:01:44 ◼   ► - I think it probably does too,

01:01:46 ◼   ► or at the very least it has an option

01:01:47 ◼   ► that you don't remember to do that.

01:01:49 ◼   ► - There are various modules and options,

01:01:51 ◼   ► I mean, 'cause FFmpeg is not just one set of things,

01:01:54 ◼   ► it's like there's a whole bunch of different optional things

01:01:55 ◼   ► that can be bundled into it or whatever else,

01:01:57 ◼   ► and some of those things do use the hardware acceleration.

01:02:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, the more, I mean, this is, you know,

01:02:03 ◼   ► it's not an MVP, but this is the first version of a product,

01:02:06 ◼   ► and using, I mean, I don't know how else you would do it,

01:02:10 ◼   ► It just seems like they're using screen capture kit

01:02:12 ◼   ► and Apple's vision framework.

01:02:13 ◼   ► I would have expected to see them using

01:02:15 ◼   ► whatever the appropriate, was it AV foundation,

01:02:17 ◼   ► whatever the appropriate Apple library is

01:02:19 ◼   ► to do this work rather than FFmpeg.

01:02:21 ◼   ► But either way, it's probably pretty efficient.

01:02:25 ◼   ► - And then additionally, if the user joins a Zoom call

01:02:28 ◼   ► and enables transcription through rewind,

01:02:30 ◼   ► it will transcribe the audio on device

01:02:32 ◼   ► using the OpenAI Whisper model.

01:02:35 ◼   ► Then it stores the transcripts and speaker information

01:02:37 ◼   ► into a SQLite database.

01:02:38 ◼   ► And so then Kevin did some benchmarks and whatnot.

01:02:41 ◼   ► So CPU usage when recording on his 14-inch MacBook Pro

01:02:45 ◼   ► with an M1 Pro processor,

01:02:47 ◼   ► Rewind uses about 20% of the CPU continuously.

01:02:52 ◼   ► - Not good. - And then Rewind Helper,

01:02:55 ◼   ► which is I think the thing that does the transcoding,

01:02:58 ◼   ► or manages the transcoding and whatnot,

01:02:59 ◼   ► spikes over 200% CPU every time the temporary PNG images

01:03:03 ◼   ► are compressed into an H.264 video.

01:03:06 ◼   ► That's really not good.

01:03:07 ◼   ► - Now wait, hold on, do we know whether

01:03:09 ◼   ► that's efficiency cores or the high power cores?

01:03:12 ◼   ► - Oh, that's an interesting question

01:03:13 ◼   ► and I don't think we know.

01:03:15 ◼   ► - That's the problem with CPU percentages

01:03:16 ◼   ► 'cause remember 100% CPU is not all of your CPU,

01:03:20 ◼   ► it's all of one core according to the way

01:03:22 ◼   ► that Apple's activity monitor does stuff.

01:03:23 ◼   ► So 20% sounds like a lot, but on a laptop,

01:03:27 ◼   ► like you don't, you really, when it's idle,

01:03:29 ◼   ► you want it to be idle.

01:03:30 ◼   ► And if it's using 20% of even just one core continuously,

01:03:33 ◼   ► that's not great for battery life.

01:03:35 ◼   ► But again, you know, what are you getting for it?

01:03:37 ◼   ► you're getting live streams, right?

01:03:38 ◼   ► So I think it is being as efficient as it can be,

01:03:41 ◼   ► modulo a few things, like later in the article,

01:03:45 ◼   ► Kevin goes into some suggestions

01:03:47 ◼   ► for how this could be improved,

01:03:48 ◼   ► like not writing out pings,

01:03:50 ◼   ► but instead of going straight to the H.264,

01:03:52 ◼   ► or I would say like if they're shelling out the FFmpeg

01:03:55 ◼   ► versus statically linking with the library,

01:03:57 ◼   ► that would be something to look into,

01:03:58 ◼   ► but again, it's version one.

01:04:00 ◼   ► - I would say too, though, I mean, just for CPU load-wise,

01:04:02 ◼   ► like when you're running an M1 or M2-based Mac,

01:04:07 ◼   ► If you run something like iStat Menus,

01:04:09 ◼   ► like Casey and I and definitely not John do,

01:04:12 ◼   ► you will see your efficiency cores are running

01:04:16 ◼   ► at what on Intel machines would be

01:04:19 ◼   ► kind of an alarmingly high percentage.

01:04:22 ◼   ► Mine right now, the efficiency cores are hovering around,

01:04:25 ◼   ► looks like about 75% use, and that's kind of constant.

01:04:28 ◼   ► And one of those things is Zoom, but oh well.

01:04:30 ◼   ► The other thing is just Windows Server though,

01:04:32 ◼   ► which again, Zoom.

01:04:34 ◼   ► But it's fairly common for me in fairly idle use

01:04:38 ◼   ► to look up at my menu and see my two efficiency cores

01:04:42 ◼   ► being used very heavily by kind of just regular

01:04:45 ◼   ► system activity or background things like photo indexing

01:04:48 ◼   ► and everything.

01:04:48 ◼   ► And from what I understand, and I think this matches

01:04:50 ◼   ► my anecdotal experience so far, from what I understand,

01:04:53 ◼   ► the kind of real noticeable battery life cost

01:04:58 ◼   ► to one of the efficiency cores being maxed out

01:05:01 ◼   ► is basically nothing.

01:05:03 ◼   ► It's very different from the high power cores.

01:05:05 ◼   ► If you're maxing out your high power cores,

01:05:06 ◼   ► that's a different scenario.

01:05:07 ◼   ► But the efficiency cores with a battery

01:05:11 ◼   ► the size of a modern laptop battery,

01:05:12 ◼   ► I get the impression that you're basically

01:05:15 ◼   ► using those for free.

01:05:16 ◼   ► - Interesting.

01:05:17 ◼   ► Continuing on with the rewind stuff from Kevin Chen,

01:05:20 ◼   ► the storage usage.

01:05:22 ◼   ► So the screen recordings are chunks

01:05:25 ◼   ► of about 180 megs an hour.

01:05:27 ◼   ► The metadata OCR results in call transcripts,

01:05:29 ◼   ► which are, again, the SQLite database

01:05:31 ◼   ► are about 26 megs an hour, console logs about 4 megs an hour. With regard to security, Rewind

01:05:37 ◼   ► currently doesn't encrypt data at rest. Any app with full disk access and any attacker

01:05:42 ◼   ► who encounters an unlocked computer has the ability to read recordings from all time,

01:05:46 ◼   ► including soft deleted clips. That's also not stupendous. And then other notable things,

01:05:51 ◼   ► resources/pavacons. There's a directory of 912 pavacons for popular websites stored as

01:05:59 ◼   ► There's PNG images, examples include Amazon,

01:06:01 ◼   ► Dropbox, YouTube, et cetera.

01:06:03 ◼   ► These are used in the timeline view

01:06:04 ◼   ► when the front most app is a web browser

01:06:06 ◼   ► instead of showing the browser's app icon,

01:06:08 ◼   ► which is kind of cool, though I don't know--

01:06:10 ◼   ► - That's such a 1.0 thing, it's like,

01:06:12 ◼   ► we just need to ship this, don't worry about it.

01:06:14 ◼   ► What do we do about the icons for the things?

01:06:16 ◼   ► - Just, we'll just ship a thousand of them.

01:06:18 ◼   ► Like, I mean, obviously you would think,

01:06:20 ◼   ► why don't you just go to the web and get them?

01:06:21 ◼   ► Oh, then you gotta make a network request

01:06:23 ◼   ► and it's all complicated.

01:06:24 ◼   ► They love that they just, just ship them all.

01:06:26 ◼   ► Like, just, our app bundle will be bigger,

01:06:28 ◼   ► Marker would never do this.

01:06:29 ◼   ► We're just going to ship 912 of what we think are the most popular websites, PNG images

01:06:35 ◼   ► of all their, I would say, favicons.

01:06:38 ◼   ► I just thought that was funny.

01:06:40 ◼   ► So it's implemented in a pretty straightforward way, in an explicable way, with a lot of 1.0

01:06:46 ◼   ► stuff.

01:06:47 ◼   ► The data not being encrypted at rest is not great, because it's bad enough when someone

01:06:50 ◼   ► gets access to your computer, but that is a treasure trove.

01:06:53 ◼   ► It's already OCR text, and you've got all the screen images.

01:06:58 ◼   ► This is the problem of like, well, if it never leaves my device and it's not using cloud

01:07:01 ◼   ► transcription and so on and so forth, everything's done locally, it's nice and secure.

01:07:04 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, but now you've just made, I don't know, like the equivalent of like

01:07:08 ◼   ► collecting evidence against yourself and putting it in a little box and wrapping it up with

01:07:11 ◼   ► a bow.

01:07:12 ◼   ► Not that you're doing any bad things, but in terms of privacy, you probably don't want

01:07:15 ◼   ► anyone getting at that because they could just sort of go through that and see what

01:07:18 ◼   ► you've done for the past day, two days, week, month, year.

01:07:23 ◼   ► It's up to you to kind of be studious about like, well, I want to exclude private windows,

01:07:27 ◼   ► show it when I go to my bank website,

01:07:28 ◼   ► like whatever you want to do,

01:07:29 ◼   ► but with great power comes great responsibility.

01:07:32 ◼   ► But anyway, it's implemented in what I think

01:07:34 ◼   ► is a fairly straightforward way,

01:07:35 ◼   ► and I thought this was a really interesting examination

01:07:38 ◼   ► of how it works and what it takes.

01:07:40 ◼   ► And your point, Marco, about the efficiency course

01:07:42 ◼   ► is important because that's kind of what they're there for.

01:07:44 ◼   ► It's not like when you write a program,

01:07:45 ◼   ► you can, well, you can specifically target things,

01:07:47 ◼   ► but there's, scheduling on macOS is really weird,

01:07:50 ◼   ► but there are, suffice to say,

01:07:51 ◼   ► there are APIs when you run code in a Mac application

01:07:55 ◼   ► that you can tell the OS and the threading job service

01:08:00 ◼   ► that you're using through whatever API you're using,

01:08:02 ◼   ► what priority you want.

01:08:03 ◼   ► And if you say something like low background,

01:08:06 ◼   ► like all different words for the priorities,

01:08:07 ◼   ► you'll end up running on the efficiency cores

01:08:09 ◼   ► pretty much exclusively.

01:08:11 ◼   ► There's also some other details about core affinity

01:08:13 ◼   ► of whether your job stays in the same core,

01:08:15 ◼   ► bounces around and how that infects cache or whatever.

01:08:18 ◼   ► But I think everything this is doing

01:08:19 ◼   ► is sort of below the level of notice

01:08:22 ◼   ► of a modern M class processor, because it's not,

01:08:26 ◼   ► you know, the stuff that it's doing that's complicated,

01:08:28 ◼   ► like the text kit thing, the vision framework

01:08:31 ◼   ► of parsing text, that's gotta be optimized to hell and back.

01:08:34 ◼   ► Like the Apple did that work for you already.

01:08:36 ◼   ► That's already efficient, it's already gonna be fast.

01:08:38 ◼   ► You don't need the results in real time, right?

01:08:40 ◼   ► So it can be, it's asynchronous in the background

01:08:43 ◼   ► and you're not in a big hurry.

01:08:44 ◼   ► So I bet that does pretty well.

01:08:46 ◼   ► Screen capture kit, again, Apple optimized that

01:08:48 ◼   ► to be able to capture your screen without destroying

01:08:50 ◼   ► your Mac and making it slow and unresponsive.

01:08:52 ◼   ► So that's great.

01:08:53 ◼   ► F of MPEG, I feel like is a weak point here

01:08:55 ◼   ► because as optimized as it may be,

01:08:57 ◼   ► I have to think that any Apple framework

01:08:58 ◼   ► would be even more optimized.

01:09:00 ◼   ► Even if the F of MPEG thing is just calling

01:09:02 ◼   ► into the Apple framework, it still seems like.

01:09:03 ◼   ► - I believe that is exactly what it's doing.

01:09:06 ◼   ► If you configure it properly, like Marco was saying,

01:09:08 ◼   ► and it's video toolbox is the,

01:09:10 ◼   ► I don't know why it's called video toolbox.

01:09:11 ◼   ► Maybe that's an Apple thing.

01:09:12 ◼   ► Maybe it's an F of MPEG thing, but that's what they're,

01:09:15 ◼   ► that's what F of MPEG calls the like front end Apple APIs.

01:09:18 ◼   ► And I actually did, just for grins and giggles,

01:09:20 ◼   ► look through the video toolbox code a year or two back,

01:09:24 ◼   ► and it looks like, if memory serves,

01:09:26 ◼   ► and again, this is a year or two ago,

01:09:27 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure it's just calling into AV Foundation.

01:09:29 ◼   ► I don't think it's doing anything you wouldn't expect.

01:09:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, I understand the marshaling of the jobs,

01:09:36 ◼   ► however it's dealing with threading

01:09:39 ◼   ► or background tasks or whatever,

01:09:41 ◼   ► in an Apple framework, you could give it a batch of work

01:09:44 ◼   ► and let it do that in a way that is most efficient

01:09:46 ◼   ► on your M whatever processor,

01:09:47 ◼   ► whereas at FFmpeg you're kind of doing that manually,

01:09:49 ◼   ► deciding how many jobs you want to run,

01:09:52 ◼   ► how many cores you want them to use,

01:09:53 ◼   ► even if each individual one is just using

01:09:55 ◼   ► AV Foundation behind the scenes.

01:09:57 ◼   ► Same thing with like, for the OpenAI thing,

01:09:59 ◼   ► I don't know if Apple has a solution to that,

01:10:01 ◼   ► of the transcribing speech into text.

01:10:05 ◼   ► I think there's an Apple solution,

01:10:06 ◼   ► but OpenAI is a popular open source one.

01:10:10 ◼   ► I think when someone was digging into this,

01:10:11 ◼   ► they found the OpenAI, maybe it was Kevin,

01:10:13 ◼   ► found the OpenAI model file in the executable one,

01:10:16 ◼   ► like the speech model file there.

01:10:18 ◼   ► I'm not sure if they're using the OpenAI library, which

01:10:22 ◼   ► I think is written in C++ to do it.

01:10:24 ◼   ► But as the advertising material said,

01:10:27 ◼   ► this is actually a good demonstration

01:10:28 ◼   ► of leveraging Apple's platform APIs to build an application

01:10:32 ◼   ► that you otherwise would not be able to build without Apple's

01:10:35 ◼   ► help.

01:10:36 ◼   ► These libraries they're using make the application.

01:10:39 ◼   ► If you had to write all these libraries yourself from scratch,

01:10:42 ◼   ► it would take you many more years and many more millions

01:10:45 ◼   ► of dollars.

01:10:45 ◼   ► But because Apple offers these frameworks,

01:10:48 ◼   ► a company can make this product in way less time

01:10:52 ◼   ► with far fewer people, and I think that's pretty cool.

01:10:54 ◼   ► - Video toolbox is apparently an Apple thing,

01:10:56 ◼   ► real-time follow-up, and we'll put a link to it

01:10:58 ◼   ► in the show.

01:10:59 ◼   ► - People will be familiar with it because you see it

01:11:00 ◼   ► in the menu in Handbrake, and you know it as the thing

01:11:02 ◼   ► that makes my encode go faster.

01:11:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:11:05 ◼   ► - Gosh, I haven't used Handbrake in forever,

01:11:07 ◼   ► but you are not wrong.

01:11:08 ◼   ► All right, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:11:09 ◼   ► We got a really fascinating one from Stefan Jacobs

01:11:13 ◼   ► about a month ago, I'd say. It's been a while. But we were trying to find some room to fit

01:11:17 ◼   ► it in because this might be the only ask ATP we do for the day. So Stefan writes, "During

01:11:22 ◼   ► the recent discussion about Twitter, you briefly discussed the analogy of leaving Apple platforms

01:11:26 ◼   ► if someone at Apple made decisions of a similar nature to those being made at Twitter. The

01:11:32 ◼   ► options are obviously not great. Neither Windows nor any of the various Linux distros offer

01:11:36 ◼   ► anywhere near the attention to detail and polish that Apple has put into its platforms

01:11:39 ◼   ► over the years. So here's my question. If someone were to build a third alternative

01:11:44 ◼   ► mainstream OS that could host a hypothetical wave of Apple refugees, what are the key things

01:11:49 ◼   ► they would need to get right? PS, optional clarifying parameters if needed. And since

01:11:54 ◼   ► I'm talking to John Syracuse, I'm sure they are. Let's assume that Apple has a less stark

01:11:58 ◼   ► advantage in processor hardware by the time this happens. And to begin with, the OS would

01:12:02 ◼   ► probably need to be able to run on third-party hardware, although tight integration, a la

01:12:07 ◼   ► would presumably be possible over time.

01:12:10 ◼   ► John, tell me about System 76, what's the context here?

01:12:14 ◼   ► - I don't even know what that is,

01:12:14 ◼   ► it's the click on the link.

01:12:16 ◼   ► - Oh, right, good. - I've seen it before.

01:12:18 ◼   ► - Oh, it's a Linux laptop vendor, I see, okay.

01:12:21 ◼   ► So it's Linux laptops that are supposed to be like MacBooks.

01:12:24 ◼   ► Got it.

01:12:25 ◼   ► - Just like every other laptop.

01:12:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, sure.

01:12:27 ◼   ► All right, so here's my question, I'm repeating.

01:12:30 ◼   ► Stefan writes, so here's my question.

01:12:31 ◼   ► If someone were to build a third alternative mainstream OS

01:12:34 ◼   ► that could host a hypothetical wave of Apple refugees,

01:12:37 ◼   ► What are the key things they would need to get right?

01:12:39 ◼   ► Does anyone, would anyone like to start?

01:12:42 ◼   ► - One thing I want to say right off the bat about this

01:12:43 ◼   ► is because Twitter is the context of the thing.

01:12:47 ◼   ► A key factor in this hypothetical is that

01:12:50 ◼   ► if Apple ever went the way of Twitter,

01:12:52 ◼   ► and there are many things preventing that,

01:12:53 ◼   ► not the least of which is that it is not a private company

01:12:56 ◼   ► owned or controlled by a single person,

01:12:57 ◼   ► if Apple did go in that direction,

01:13:01 ◼   ► the self-destruction, the implosion of Apple

01:13:05 ◼   ► makes it possible for there to be an alternative.

01:13:09 ◼   ► Like, I think Mastodon, for example,

01:13:12 ◼   ► getting so much more activity and becoming more popular

01:13:16 ◼   ► happens because Twitter is self-destructing, right?

01:13:18 ◼   ► And so if you look at this question,

01:13:20 ◼   ► every time we talk about it, it's like, yeah,

01:13:21 ◼   ► but it's basically impossible to make a competing

01:13:26 ◼   ► phone platform, desktop operating system,

01:13:28 ◼   ► tablet, whatever you want to say.

01:13:29 ◼   ► It's basically impossible, right?

01:13:31 ◼   ► But if Apple self-destructed, that's a power vacuum.

01:13:34 ◼   ► something would fill that vacuum.

01:13:36 ◼   ► So I don't think it's entirely ridiculous to think

01:13:39 ◼   ► if Apple did implode and just sort of, you know,

01:13:42 ◼   ► if Apple pulled Twitter, let's say,

01:13:44 ◼   ► it would make an opportunity for someone to fill that void.

01:13:48 ◼   ► And I think that someone,

01:13:51 ◼   ► if someone did succeed to fill that void,

01:13:53 ◼   ► they would probably be vaguely Apple-ish,

01:13:55 ◼   ► kind of like Mastodon is vaguely Twitter-ish,

01:13:58 ◼   ► but also learning from the mistakes of Twitter.

01:14:00 ◼   ► But, you know, kind of trying to appeal in the same way

01:14:04 ◼   ► to sort of a small group of early adopters

01:14:06 ◼   ► like Mastodon did or like Apple did, right?

01:14:08 ◼   ► So, usually I complain that people's hypothetical

01:14:11 ◼   ► is not realistic, I have to say that the implosion

01:14:14 ◼   ► of Apple itself makes this somewhat more realistic.

01:14:18 ◼   ► - All right, so what's important?

01:14:20 ◼   ► - I mean, I think number one would be,

01:14:22 ◼   ► we know there are some similar challenges

01:14:26 ◼   ► as with social networks of chicken and egg problems

01:14:29 ◼   ► or getting network effects going.

01:14:31 ◼   ► And in an operating system, one of the biggest challenges

01:14:33 ◼   ► is software compatibility, like what's gonna run on this?

01:14:36 ◼   ► And so I think the best way to bootstrap this

01:14:40 ◼   ► would either be to base a new operating system

01:14:43 ◼   ► on Linux or on Android.

01:14:46 ◼   ► And I don't love either of those options

01:14:48 ◼   ► for lots of reasons, but what we see

01:14:51 ◼   ► with the Mastodon explosion, as John was saying

01:14:55 ◼   ► just in the wake of the Twitter implosion,

01:14:58 ◼   ► part of the reason why Mastodon is so much more appealing

01:15:01 ◼   ► to many of us nerds who care about these kind

01:15:04 ◼   ► of distinctions, compared to something like Hive

01:15:08 ◼   ► or Post or whatever, is, as I was saying a few episodes ago,

01:15:11 ◼   ► like, now that we've been burned by the big closed

01:15:15 ◼   ► ecosystem of Twitter, the idea of something being open

01:15:20 ◼   ► and protocol based and not being in the hands

01:15:23 ◼   ► of just one big company, it's like, okay, well,

01:15:26 ◼   ► now we learn that lesson that one centralized big company

01:15:29 ◼   ► is bad, so we're gonna now apply that lesson

01:15:31 ◼   ► and not let that same mistake happen again.

01:15:34 ◼   ► Well, we have that same problem with Apple,

01:15:37 ◼   ► they've just been a good enough steward

01:15:39 ◼   ► most of the time that we haven't jumped ship.

01:15:42 ◼   ► But if Apple did go bad and cause us all

01:15:45 ◼   ► to jump ship in some way, I would want to then

01:15:49 ◼   ► make sure that same mistake of that big centralization

01:15:52 ◼   ► couldn't happen again, and I would rather

01:15:55 ◼   ► set up shop on Linux than on Windows.

01:15:57 ◼   ► Also, I mean, it helps also,

01:15:59 ◼   ► I might have said Windows a couple years ago,

01:16:02 ◼   ► but in that intervening time,

01:16:04 ◼   ► I've had more experience with Windows.

01:16:06 ◼   ► - You've used Windows?

01:16:07 ◼   ► - Well, you should have had as more experience with Linux

01:16:09 ◼   ► and that might change your mind.

01:16:10 ◼   ► - Fair enough, but Linux is, as I said many years ago,

01:16:15 ◼   ► it's almost like going to live in the woods,

01:16:17 ◼   ► but I think I'd rather go start my own civilization

01:16:19 ◼   ► in the woods based on the foundation of Linux

01:16:21 ◼   ► than to live in the hellhole that is Windows

01:16:24 ◼   ► any more than I have to.

01:16:25 ◼   ► And over the years, whenever we'd insult Windows

01:16:28 ◼   ► on this show, we'd hear from people who are like,

01:16:30 ◼   ► you know it's better now, you should try it.

01:16:31 ◼   ► They've really made it a lot better now.

01:16:33 ◼   ► And I was starting to believe these people.

01:16:36 ◼   ► But now I've actually used it firsthand,

01:16:38 ◼   ► modern versions on modern hardware.

01:16:39 ◼   ► And I can say without a doubt, it's not that much better.

01:16:42 ◼   ► It is a little bit better, it's not that much better.

01:16:44 ◼   ► And it is not something I want to use still.

01:16:48 ◼   ► So whatever the new OS would be

01:16:53 ◼   ► that I would want to invest my time and resources in

01:16:56 ◼   ► would hopefully be a Linux based thing.

01:17:00 ◼   ► Android would be a little bit better

01:17:03 ◼   ► in the sense that Android would provide

01:17:05 ◼   ► that app compatibility, but it's not,

01:17:09 ◼   ► Android would provide crappy app compatibility.

01:17:11 ◼   ► And not to say that Android apps are crappy, they are,

01:17:13 ◼   ► but for this point, it's more about,

01:17:16 ◼   ► it's like the cross platform nature of Android apps,

01:17:20 ◼   ► like running on a general PC operating system,

01:17:23 ◼   ► it makes it a pretty crappy experience.

01:17:25 ◼   ► Like if anyone's ever used,

01:17:27 ◼   ► there are already ways to run Android apps

01:17:29 ◼   ► on PC operating systems, and they're terrible.

01:17:32 ◼   ► They're very clunky.

01:17:34 ◼   ► I mean, heck, look at Catalyst on Mac OS.

01:17:35 ◼   ► It isn't that much better.

01:17:37 ◼   ► It's not a great experience.

01:17:38 ◼   ► So Linux, I think, would be the best

01:17:43 ◼   ► long-term place to invest.

01:17:45 ◼   ► And so I think what a third-party alternative OS

01:17:50 ◼   ► would have to be, I think, would just be a really good

01:17:54 ◼   ► Linux distribution that invests heavily in the desktop

01:17:58 ◼   ► and laptop user experience, which we've seen smaller

01:18:01 ◼   ► efforts of this over time with Linux.

01:18:04 ◼   ► None of them have ever really gone anywhere,

01:18:06 ◼   ► but I think that's what it would have to be.

01:18:08 ◼   ► And if there really was a big Apple implosion

01:18:11 ◼   ► and there were all these talented, opinionated people

01:18:14 ◼   ► who wanted somewhere to go, that I think would be

01:18:16 ◼   ► way more likely to succeed than either Windows

01:18:20 ◼   ► appealing to this crowd, which it never will,

01:18:23 ◼   ► because, I mean, God, just try it, trust me.

01:18:26 ◼   ► So either that, that's not gonna happen,

01:18:28 ◼   ► or a whole new OS starting from scratch

01:18:31 ◼   ► that wouldn't be able to run any of the software

01:18:34 ◼   ► from any of the other OSes we have now,

01:18:36 ◼   ► I think that's a no-go, because software compatibility

01:18:39 ◼   ► is just too important.

01:18:40 ◼   ► And the fact is, Linux actually has pretty decent

01:18:44 ◼   ► software compatibility with a lot of stuff

01:18:46 ◼   ► that a lot of people wanna use these days.

01:18:48 ◼   ► It's not amazing, it's not as much as Windows

01:18:51 ◼   ► or Mac or Android, but it's not as bad as you would think

01:18:55 ◼   ► if you haven't tried it recently.

01:18:56 ◼   ► So that's where I would go with it,

01:18:59 ◼   ► is like start with Linux and just make

01:19:01 ◼   ► a really good distribution that has a really

01:19:04 ◼   ► significantly improved experience around key areas

01:19:07 ◼   ► for desktop and laptop use.

01:19:08 ◼   ► - See, but I think you're majoring

01:19:10 ◼   ► on the implementation details,

01:19:11 ◼   ► and I don't think that's the spirit

01:19:12 ◼   ► of what Stefan was asking.

01:19:13 ◼   ► I think what Stefan was asking is,

01:19:15 ◼   ► what would you look for in an operating system that would make it feel like home or like somewhere

01:19:22 ◼   ► you could, you know, pitch your tent, so to speak. And so when I read this question, what I was

01:19:27 ◼   ► thinking of is like, what would appeal to me? What are some of the core things about macOS that I

01:19:33 ◼   ► wouldn't want to give up? So some of that is, you know, kind of hand-wavy things like, well,

01:19:38 ◼   ► attention to detail, which it's hard to get specific about that unless you're talking about

01:19:42 ◼   ► like something you know at a micro level but in general like a good attention to detail a good

01:19:47 ◼   ► visual design but then i started thinking okay well what about one of the things that i love

01:19:52 ◼   ► about mac os that i never really experienced on windows and maybe maybe that's because i never

01:19:58 ◼   ► took the time to learn but mac os has incredibly robust like keyboard shortcuts and keyboard

01:20:03 ◼   ► support throughout the entire operating system and every app within it and you can do so much

01:20:08 ◼   ► with the keyboard particularly when you're using the keyboard in combination with a mouse and so

01:20:12 ◼   ► I think robust keyboard shortcuts and keyboard support is also important to me.

01:20:15 ◼   ► I wonder if now I'm starting to get into the implementation details, kind of like you were,

01:20:20 ◼   ► Marco, but I think a good developer story is powerful. I would argue that part of the reason

01:20:25 ◼   ► that Macs got so darn popular in the early to mid-aughts was because the developer story

01:20:31 ◼   ► was so good. It was a Linux computer, not too dissimilar than a lot of the web servers that

01:20:38 ◼   ► that we were all writing code for,

01:20:39 ◼   ► but it was a Linux computer right there on your desk,

01:20:42 ◼   ► and you didn't have to do a VM or anything,

01:20:43 ◼   ► it was right there.

01:20:44 ◼   ► - What are you talking about, it was a Linux computer?

01:20:46 ◼   ► - Well, okay, Unix, sorry, sorry, excuse me.

01:20:49 ◼   ► - That just gave you a lot of feedback.

01:20:50 ◼   ► You said it twice, and it wasn't just a SPECO,

01:20:53 ◼   ► it was not a Linux computer.

01:20:54 ◼   ► - You're right, you're right.

01:20:56 ◼   ► I'm already getting blown up in the chat room, too.

01:20:58 ◼   ► But anyways, so, no, you're right,

01:21:00 ◼   ► it was a Unix computer, it's a Unix system, I know this.

01:21:02 ◼   ► It's a Unix computer right there on your desk.

01:21:03 ◼   ► - Wait, is BSD, like, there's gonna be somebody

01:21:06 ◼   ► who writes in and is like, actually--

01:21:08 ◼   ► - No, don't you remember, this was before your time.

01:21:10 ◼   ► Apple got real, official, all-caps Unix certification

01:21:15 ◼   ► for Mac OS X.

01:21:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:21:17 ◼   ► - There's a great story you mentioned, Ed,

01:21:19 ◼   ► about the person who led that effort.

01:21:21 ◼   ► I'll see if I can find it for now.

01:21:22 ◼   ► - Oh, I remember that.

01:21:23 ◼   ► That was a good story.

01:21:24 ◼   ► I don't know if I'll be able to find it,

01:21:25 ◼   ► but that was a very good story.

01:21:27 ◼   ► But anyway, but to finish kind of the thoughts I had,

01:21:30 ◼   ► you know, having a good developer story,

01:21:32 ◼   ► I think, is important, although maybe I'm into,

01:21:36 ◼   ► I'm too much indexing on what's important to me and not what's generically important.

01:21:41 ◼   ► But speaking of generically important, I think what's pretty great about Mac OS in a way

01:21:46 ◼   ► that, say, Swift wants to be but kind of isn't, is that Mac OS does do a pretty good job with

01:21:54 ◼   ► progressive disclosure.

01:21:55 ◼   ► So to do basic stuff is fairly straightforward.

01:21:59 ◼   ► To do intermediate level stuff is kind of hard, but not terribly hard.

01:22:05 ◼   ► to do hard stuff is hard, but it's possible.

01:22:08 ◼   ► And that's, I think, a really important thing

01:22:11 ◼   ► that I would want to see in whatever this new operating

01:22:13 ◼   ► system I would potentially be using.

01:22:16 ◼   ► So I don't know if you guys have anything along those lines,

01:22:18 ◼   ► or if you'd rather go back into the nerdy stuff.

01:22:20 ◼   ► That's fine, too.

01:22:21 ◼   ► But that was the sort of thing that I

01:22:23 ◼   ► was thinking about when I was reading Stefan's question.

01:22:25 ◼   ► I think they're kind of connected.

01:22:27 ◼   ► When Margaret was talking about bootstrapping

01:22:29 ◼   ► and how you've got the problem of, well, for a platform,

01:22:32 ◼   ► you need people to make apps and everything,

01:22:33 ◼   ► thought where you were going in case you kind of glanced off this as well is the

01:22:39 ◼   ► developer story not in terms of what does the platform offer for developers

01:22:43 ◼   ► but in terms of what developers are drawn to this platform like the only

01:22:47 ◼   ► reason the Mac even still exists is because Apple bought next and part of

01:22:53 ◼   ► that was the developers who had been developing for next an obscure platform

01:22:57 ◼   ► that nobody cared about that sold computers to colleges right for ten

01:23:01 ◼   ► $10,000 each, was because those developers,

01:23:05 ◼   ► they came with the platform, because like,

01:23:07 ◼   ► where the hell else are they gonna go?

01:23:08 ◼   ► You gonna write objectoracies for somebody else, right?

01:23:10 ◼   ► They came with the platform, and those are the ones

01:23:12 ◼   ► that made the great Mac apps that defined the Mac

01:23:16 ◼   ► for the new generation.

01:23:18 ◼   ► There was also the classic Mac OS apps that were great.

01:23:21 ◼   ► I mean, some of them are still around,

01:23:22 ◼   ► and then we bring like Microsoft Office

01:23:24 ◼   ► and Photoshop for sure, but sort of the renaissance

01:23:27 ◼   ► of the Mac in the early days of Mac OS X

01:23:29 ◼   ► was because Apple had essentially purchased a developer community filled with really good,

01:23:36 ◼   ► interesting developers that share values that we have.

01:23:39 ◼   ► So for a platform that's going to appeal to us, I think it would have to come with or

01:23:45 ◼   ► be attractive to the kinds of developers who make the apps that appeal to us.

01:23:51 ◼   ► So we got the Next and the AppKit Objective-C developers before.

01:23:56 ◼   ► If it was some other platform, it would have to be like, well, what is the platform that

01:24:00 ◼   ► those type of developers, either literally those people, because some of those people

01:24:04 ◼   ► have been moved from platform to platform again because they're not writing next apps

01:24:06 ◼   ► anymore, right?

01:24:08 ◼   ► Or people like that, whatever the current equivalent of that is.

01:24:10 ◼   ► If they're attracted to the platform and they want to make apps for it, we would be attracted

01:24:15 ◼   ► there as users and in some respects as developers because those are the type of people...

01:24:20 ◼   ► And the apps don't come from nowhere.

01:24:21 ◼   ► It's not like, oh, you just have a platform and it should have good apps.

01:24:24 ◼   ► Where do they come from?

01:24:25 ◼   ► make them. The kind of people who made classic Mac apps when no one had heard of the Mac

01:24:31 ◼   ► and they were really expensive. The kind of people who were making NeXT apps when nobody

01:24:34 ◼   ► heard about NeXT. The things that appealed about NeXT and the Mac, and it's not just

01:24:38 ◼   ► that Steve Jobs involved making both of them, those qualities, even though they were so

01:24:43 ◼   ► very different, NeXT, BSD Unix-based system for schools, no color, grayscale screens initially,

01:24:50 ◼   ► Objective-C, weird programming language, the user interface didn't really look anything

01:24:55 ◼   ► like the Mac, but the sort of the things that appealed to AppKit developers are the same

01:25:00 ◼   ► type of things that appealed to Mac developers and it was kind of a natural marriage of those

01:25:05 ◼   ► things for the current Mac platform.

01:25:07 ◼   ► So I think any platform that I would go to after the Mac, I would basically be following

01:25:13 ◼   ► that muse.

01:25:15 ◼   ► Where are those people going?

01:25:16 ◼   ► Where are people like that?