ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► I know, I just gotta get on all on the same page and get the balls rolling.

00:00:03 ◼   ► Agreed. Love those balls.

00:00:05 ◼   ► See, if someone other than Marco edited the show, that little clip would be like at the

00:00:10 ◼   ► beginning or the end of the show. Oh, without question. Without question.

00:00:14 ◼   ► Just want to point that out.

00:00:16 ◼   ► So this Apple event kind of came out of nowhere? Like what?

00:00:20 ◼   ► It's not an event. We had an item in the notes that, you know, now is moved and should be deleted.

00:00:26 ◼   ► I'll go to that now, that was like,

00:00:27 ◼   ► oh rumor is that there won't be an October event,

00:00:30 ◼   ► it will just be a bunch of products

00:00:31 ◼   ► put out into the world through a press release,

00:00:34 ◼   ► but we never got to that topic and that's what happened.

00:00:37 ◼   ► So if you didn't see that topic down in the notes marker,

00:00:39 ◼   ► you might not have known this was happening.

00:00:41 ◼   ► I saw that you were doing something else

00:00:42 ◼   ► and when you came back online, you're like,

00:00:44 ◼   ► wow, new Apple products,

00:00:45 ◼   ► but everyone else knew it was happening.

00:00:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's literally what happened.

00:00:48 ◼   ► I was deep in work mode, which by the way,

00:00:50 ◼   ► it's going amazingly.

00:00:52 ◼   ► I decided to try this other product,

00:00:54 ◼   ► I mentioned last week that I was making this dumb little app

00:00:57 ◼   ► for sand drivers here to kind of share condition reports

00:01:01 ◼   ► with each other.

00:01:02 ◼   ► And so this is an app that's gonna be used

00:01:03 ◼   ► by maybe 15 people.

00:01:05 ◼   ► It's not like a major audience or business kind of thing.

00:01:09 ◼   ► However, I'm using it in part as a break from Overcast,

00:01:14 ◼   ► both to kind of regroup after a very difficult summer

00:01:17 ◼   ► of nothing working that I was doing

00:01:20 ◼   ► that was very demoralizing,

00:01:21 ◼   ► and also to help me learn all the new stuff.

00:01:26 ◼   ► Like this is, I'm doing everything in Swift,

00:01:28 ◼   ► Swift UI, and the new Swift concurrency stuff,

00:01:31 ◼   ► all the, you know, the async, everything.

00:01:34 ◼   ► And it is glorious.

00:01:37 ◼   ► Like, because what I'm making effectively

00:01:41 ◼   ► is the kind of app that is simple enough

00:01:45 ◼   ► that it's almost like the WBC video,

00:01:47 ◼   ► or like the example apps they make,

00:01:49 ◼   ► where like, it's like oh, I have this simple JSON list

00:01:53 ◼   ► that my web service is dumping out

00:01:54 ◼   ► and I have to show it like in a UI basically.

00:01:57 ◼   ► Like that's--

00:01:58 ◼   ► - They're a little fancy though, wasn't the food truck app?

00:01:59 ◼   ► I actually had a lot of screens and features this past year.

00:02:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, well and it turns out everything these days

00:02:04 ◼   ► have a lot of, like part of what I'm doing

00:02:06 ◼   ► requires location access and talk about like needing

00:02:10 ◼   ► some UI there, like to try to manage those permissions

00:02:13 ◼   ► and getting the user to understand what's going on,

00:02:15 ◼   ► especially because for it to work really well,

00:02:17 ◼   ► I want some people to use the always location access.

00:02:20 ◼   ► - Ooh, uh-oh. - And good luck.

00:02:21 ◼   ► That's a whole thing.

00:02:24 ◼   ► Apple really does not want you to do that

00:02:27 ◼   ► and they really make it difficult.

00:02:29 ◼   ► But anyway, which is probably for the best, honestly.

00:02:32 ◼   ► But anyways, so, but using SwiftUI

00:02:36 ◼   ► and doing all this stuff, using all the async stuff,

00:02:38 ◼   ► oh, it's finally coming together.

00:02:40 ◼   ► It's finally clicking.

00:02:41 ◼   ► My journey with both Swift itself

00:02:44 ◼   ► and certainly with SwiftUI and more recently

00:02:47 ◼   ► the Async stuff that I barely have used yet,

00:02:50 ◼   ► it really has felt like,

00:02:52 ◼   ► I was gonna say starting a car in fifth gear, but--

00:02:56 ◼   ► - That's not at all what you mean.

00:02:57 ◼   ► I know what you mean, but that's not what you mean.

00:02:59 ◼   ► - That metaphor is difficult in part

00:03:01 ◼   ► because my start was even slower,

00:03:04 ◼   ► and in part because I don't even know

00:03:06 ◼   ► how many gears modern cars have.

00:03:08 ◼   ► - Oh, God.

00:03:09 ◼   ► - When fifth was the highest gear,

00:03:11 ◼   ► it's like starting a car in fifth gear.

00:03:13 ◼   ► And that was back when engines sucked too.

00:03:14 ◼   ► And so they were not very powerful.

00:03:16 ◼   ► And unless you had a fairly hefty grunt there,

00:03:19 ◼   ► that was fairly difficult to do.

00:03:21 ◼   ► That's not to say I never did it,

00:03:23 ◼   ► but just a bit as you start out really slow

00:03:27 ◼   ► and maybe you stall a few times,

00:03:29 ◼   ► but eventually if you keep at it,

00:03:31 ◼   ► you can build up quite some speed.

00:03:34 ◼   ► It takes a long time.

00:03:35 ◼   ► But anyway, that's how I started all this stuff.

00:03:38 ◼   ► and by hopping out briefly of my massive legacy code base

00:03:43 ◼   ► and just trying something brand new from scratch,

00:03:47 ◼   ► the way we should be doing it now at the most modern way,

00:03:52 ◼   ► oh my god, it really got everything moving.

00:03:54 ◼   ► - It's funny you used to that.

00:03:55 ◼   ► - It's like a mental laxative for developer block.

00:03:58 ◼   ► Like it's just, everything's moving now.

00:04:00 ◼   ► I'm on a roll, I'm super, I'm happy.

00:04:05 ◼   ► I think part of the reason I was so miserable all summer

00:04:08 ◼   ► and first half of fall so far is because everything

00:04:10 ◼   ► I'm doing with Overcast recently has just not worked.

00:04:12 ◼   ► And I used to tell people, whenever people ask me,

00:04:16 ◼   ► hey, should I be a programmer or could I be a programmer,

00:04:19 ◼   ► the gist of what I always say is, look,

00:04:22 ◼   ► programming is a bunch of frustration

00:04:27 ◼   ► and hitting your head against the wall,

00:04:28 ◼   ► followed by making something and something working.

00:04:32 ◼   ► and the satisfaction of that, of like when it works,

00:04:36 ◼   ► has to be motivating enough to you

00:04:38 ◼   ► to make all the other stuff worth it,

00:04:40 ◼   ► to make the road to get there,

00:04:41 ◼   ► banging your head against the wall,

00:04:42 ◼   ► being frustrated by weird bugs

00:04:44 ◼   ► or weird compiler errors or whatever.

00:04:47 ◼   ► The process of getting there,

00:04:49 ◼   ► the payoff needs to make all that worthwhile.

00:04:53 ◼   ► And for like the last six months,

00:04:54 ◼   ► I've been on the wrong end of that ratio.

00:04:57 ◼   ► I've been putting so much work in to server-side stuff

00:05:02 ◼   ► that didn't go anywhere, clients had ideas

00:05:03 ◼   ► that didn't go anywhere, clients had stuff

00:05:05 ◼   ► that took longer than I thought it would

00:05:06 ◼   ► 'cause it was using old code.

00:05:07 ◼   ► There have been so much, just to mix a whole bunch

00:05:11 ◼   ► more metaphors, like grinding my gears

00:05:13 ◼   ► and just generally not getting anywhere

00:05:17 ◼   ► and not ever getting that payoff of things working nicely

00:05:21 ◼   ► and things being done.

00:05:23 ◼   ► And so to take a week to do this thing,

00:05:26 ◼   ► to help out my local community and myself here

00:05:29 ◼   ► in some small way, that has some value.

00:05:33 ◼   ► But the greater value to me is that it's basically

00:05:36 ◼   ► unfreezing my mental block.

00:05:38 ◼   ► And it's like, it's a good fix for my developer depression

00:05:43 ◼   ► like over the last few months of just like,

00:05:45 ◼   ► let me get something that actually works.

00:05:47 ◼   ► I'm a programmer, like I need that.

00:05:49 ◼   ► And I haven't felt like a programmer recently.

00:05:51 ◼   ► And this has made me feel like a programmer

00:05:53 ◼   ► and I'm very happy about that.

00:05:55 ◼   ► Even though it's a dumb little app that is not gonna have

00:05:57 ◼   ► lot of obvious value, but it has quite a lot of knock-on effect value for me.

00:06:02 ◼   ► No, I think that's extremely important, and, you know, I have not had near the slog that

00:06:06 ◼   ► you have with Overcast, but I've been fiddling with something new over the last couple of

00:06:11 ◼   ► weeks and similarly, like, I'm not leaving behind this, like, legacy codebase like Overcast

00:06:16 ◼   ► is, you know, neither of my codebases are particularly old, but I don't know, I wanted

00:06:20 ◼   ► to scratch an itch and try something and I've been working on this new thing and it's using

00:06:24 ◼   ► APIs, like Apple APIs, but APIs that I've not really used before, including a little

00:06:30 ◼   ► bit of AV Foundation, so I feel like I'm suddenly Marco Jr. over here. But no, it is really

00:06:37 ◼   ► refreshing to get a clean slate, and I feel like with every piece of code I write, I learn

00:06:42 ◼   ► a little something and I get a little bit better, and I make more mistakes, but then

00:06:46 ◼   ► I learn from them usually. And so every time I write something new, I feel, usually I feel

00:06:53 ◼   ► proud of that new thing and I see where I've improved in my craft, which is really valuable.

00:07:01 ◼   ► We don't need to belabor this because we have a lot to talk about, but out of curiosity,

00:07:05 ◼   ► what are you thinking about the async stuff? Because I don't feel like I'm great at it,

00:07:11 ◼   ► but I do like it. And I kind of especially like that I can intermingle combine and async

00:07:17 ◼   ► if I so choose, which I usually don't for the record, but there are some affordances

00:07:23 ◼   ► to going back and forth between the two.

00:07:25 ◼   ► How are you enjoying it, and are you,

00:07:27 ◼   ► when you say you're using async stuff,

00:07:28 ◼   ► are you simply using APIs that Apple's exposing,

00:07:32 ◼   ► or are you doing checked continuations

00:07:34 ◼   ► and checked throwing continuations

00:07:35 ◼   ► and the whole rigmarole in making your own async streams?

00:07:38 ◼   ► - Mostly Apple's, some of, I've made a couple of my own,

00:07:42 ◼   ► basically to get around Apple APIs

00:07:44 ◼   ► that don't yet offer async calls.

00:07:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's so frustrating.

00:07:46 ◼   ► I understand it, but it's so frustrating.

00:07:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, requesting location permission

00:07:50 ◼   ► is one of those things where you have to request permission,

00:07:52 ◼   ► then you have to wait for a delegate call

00:07:54 ◼   ► to come back to you.

00:07:54 ◼   ► And it's like, and yeah, it's like,

00:07:57 ◼   ► I know this stuff is all very, very new.

00:07:58 ◼   ► I'll give Apple a pass for a while.

00:08:00 ◼   ► I really hope in the coming years,

00:08:03 ◼   ► all of that gets wrappers around it

00:08:05 ◼   ► that make it async compatible.

00:08:07 ◼   ► Because, oh my god, it's so nice when that's there.

00:08:10 ◼   ► Like for the few APIs that do offer that,

00:08:12 ◼   ► oh man, it's nice.

00:08:13 ◼   ► And so to answer your, the first question,

00:08:15 ◼   ► how am I liking it?

00:08:17 ◼   ► So far, I don't have yet a great understanding

00:08:21 ◼   ► of what's happening.

00:08:22 ◼   ► like of how some of these things were implemented.

00:08:24 ◼   ► - Me neither.

00:08:24 ◼   ► - And so I wanna go back and rewatch,

00:08:26 ◼   ► like you know, back when it was announced,

00:08:28 ◼   ► I watched the W2C sessions on it and everything,

00:08:30 ◼   ► but that was not only, not only was that like what,

00:08:33 ◼   ► two years ago now, but also I hadn't used it yet.

00:08:36 ◼   ► And so the information didn't stick as well.

00:08:39 ◼   ► Now that I've used it some, and I've seen how it behaves,

00:08:42 ◼   ► I'm getting a feel for how it works,

00:08:44 ◼   ► now is a good time for me to go and watch,

00:08:47 ◼   ► not only the intro talks, but to watch all of the talks

00:08:49 ◼   ► that have been on Swift Concurrency so far,

00:08:51 ◼   ► to just learn some of those details of,

00:08:53 ◼   ► okay, well when I do this, this, and this,

00:08:55 ◼   ► what threads is it gonna be called on,

00:08:57 ◼   ► or what's gonna wait for what,

00:08:58 ◼   ► and what happens when this thing throws

00:09:00 ◼   ► an exception and whatever else,

00:09:02 ◼   ► and so there are all those little implementation details

00:09:05 ◼   ► that I really feel more comfortable when I know them,

00:09:09 ◼   ► even though you don't necessarily need to.

00:09:10 ◼   ► I mean, I'm using it right now and not knowing them,

00:09:13 ◼   ► but that's the kind of programmer I am,

00:09:16 ◼   ► is I like to understand everything

00:09:17 ◼   ► that's happening below the surface.

00:09:19 ◼   ► You don't usually need to know that deep of the knowledge,

00:09:22 ◼   ► but sometimes you do.

00:09:24 ◼   ► And yeah, I kind of prep myself on that, so anyway.

00:09:27 ◼   ► So I'm really enjoying it and it's making me,

00:09:30 ◼   ► I came to a realization, I talked a little bit about it

00:09:33 ◼   ► on Under the Radar last week.

00:09:35 ◼   ► It's a very good episode if you find yourself ever

00:09:37 ◼   ► like in a slump motivationally or things like that.

00:09:40 ◼   ► But I found myself realizing like,

00:09:43 ◼   ► the more time I spend in Xcode versus other apps,

00:09:49 ◼   ► like TextMate, Terminal, the web browser,

00:09:51 ◼   ► like Xcode is my happy place.

00:09:55 ◼   ► I wanna rearrange my priorities and such

00:09:58 ◼   ► so that I can increase the amount of time

00:10:01 ◼   ► I spend in Xcode and decrease the amount of time

00:10:03 ◼   ► I spend doing other types of work for apps.

00:10:07 ◼   ► And so that means less server work, less web stuff,

00:10:11 ◼   ► less running my own backends.

00:10:12 ◼   ► I'm still gonna have to run them,

00:10:13 ◼   ► but run less complicated ones that need less input from me,

00:10:18 ◼   ► possibly using semantic services, but you know,

00:10:21 ◼   ► that's, I need to get to a place where I'm doing

00:10:24 ◼   ► more Xcode time because this past summer,

00:10:28 ◼   ► I would sometimes go a week without even opening Xcode.

00:10:31 ◼   ► Like that, it was that bad.

00:10:34 ◼   ► This is not where I wanna be.

00:10:35 ◼   ► I also, I've gotten to the point now,

00:10:38 ◼   ► and I hate to say it, but I've finally gotten

00:10:40 ◼   ► to the point now where I really don't want

00:10:43 ◼   ► to work on Objective-C code, first of all,

00:10:47 ◼   ► But not only that, I don't wanna work on UIKit anymore.

00:10:51 ◼   ► - Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

00:10:53 ◼   ► I'm right there with you.

00:10:54 ◼   ► I can go on quite a rant and quite a terrace,

00:10:57 ◼   ► I'm sure you could as well,

00:10:58 ◼   ► about how much of a pain in the hindquarters SwiftUI can be.

00:11:02 ◼   ► But golly, it's hard not to look at it and say,

00:11:06 ◼   ► well, yeah, this is probably the future.

00:11:07 ◼   ► Like, you know, there are warts, there are blemishes,

00:11:11 ◼   ► there are pimples, there are zits,

00:11:12 ◼   ► but all told, it's clearly the direction

00:11:16 ◼   ► that I would like to walk, whether or not Apple wants us to.

00:11:19 ◼   ► I think you could still make an argument one way or the other,

00:11:21 ◼   ► although certainly the party line is they do want you to walk that way.

00:11:23 ◼   ► But I really think that SwiftUI has so much potential,

00:11:30 ◼   ► and if Apple really does keep cranking on it,

00:11:33 ◼   ► I really think it could be quite incredible.

00:11:34 ◼   ► It will mean that things will be different for the developers,

00:11:39 ◼   ► they will potentially be different for users,

00:11:41 ◼   ► but nevertheless, I really think it is impressive.

00:11:44 ◼   ► It's the same with the async stuff, right?

00:11:45 ◼   ► Like, I think the async stuff is more solid so far,

00:11:50 ◼   ► but I really like where this is going,

00:11:52 ◼   ► and I really like when all these things work together

00:11:57 ◼   ► and just click, and it's such a refreshing experience

00:12:00 ◼   ► and so lovely, and I really can't wait

00:12:04 ◼   ► for both of them to get better.

00:12:06 ◼   ► And I mean, coincidentally, this thing that I'm working on

00:12:08 ◼   ► that may or may not ever see the light of day,

00:12:11 ◼   ► you know, I'm using Location Manager,

00:12:12 ◼   ► and so what did I have to do?

00:12:13 ◼   ► I had to wrap the CL location manager,

00:12:15 ◼   ► give it an async API.

00:12:16 ◼   ► And I would have talked to you about this

00:12:18 ◼   ► had I realized you were working on it,

00:12:19 ◼   ► which I've actually come to think of it,

00:12:20 ◼   ► I think you might have mentioned this

00:12:21 ◼   ► and I should have thought about it.

00:12:22 ◼   ► But anyways, maybe we could have worked together

00:12:26 ◼   ► for a hot 30 seconds until we both decided

00:12:28 ◼   ► we wanted to do it our own way

00:12:29 ◼   ► and then turned our backs on each other.

00:12:31 ◼   ► But nevertheless, I want there to be more robust

00:12:35 ◼   ► async/await support in more APIs.

00:12:38 ◼   ► I want more control in SwiftUI

00:12:40 ◼   ► and more ways of doing the things that I wanna do,

00:12:43 ◼   ► or simpler ways of doing the things that I wanna do.

00:12:46 ◼   ► But golly, when it really is working well,

00:12:49 ◼   ► when you're not bumping up against

00:12:50 ◼   ► one of the many, many, many walls,

00:12:53 ◼   ► it is so nice, it's just so, so nice.

00:12:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I'm getting, you know,

00:12:57 ◼   ► like when you're dealing with

00:12:58 ◼   ► a very opinionated, prickly situation,

00:13:03 ◼   ► like Swift, like App Review,

00:13:05 ◼   ► there's a lot of these that,

00:13:10 ◼   ► again, it's like a starting in fifth year kind of thing.

00:13:13 ◼   ► It's really hard to get going from nothing

00:13:16 ◼   ► because you hit every single sharp edge there is,

00:13:19 ◼   ► you hit every single spike,

00:13:21 ◼   ► you hit every single opinionated wall,

00:13:23 ◼   ► and a lot of times in ways that are very frustrating

00:13:25 ◼   ► and that don't make sense with error messages

00:13:26 ◼   ► or anything like that.

00:13:27 ◼   ► And so this is how SwiftUI has been for me,

00:13:31 ◼   ► but now I'm getting really fast at it.

00:13:34 ◼   ► And I'm getting to the point where I,

00:13:38 ◼   ► And I keep hitting instances where I know how to do

00:13:42 ◼   ► the thing I wanna do in UIKit, and I know that it's a slog,

00:13:46 ◼   ► and I just did it in SwiftUI in 30 seconds.

00:13:48 ◼   ► - Yep. - And I'm hitting

00:13:50 ◼   ► so many of those now.

00:13:52 ◼   ► There are still areas where it's still a buggy mess,

00:13:56 ◼   ► and it's very difficult to use.

00:13:58 ◼   ► For instance, complex navigation hierarchies,

00:14:01 ◼   ► it's still crappy at that.

00:14:03 ◼   ► And someday it might get better, I hope it does.

00:14:05 ◼   ► But that's still tough for it.

00:14:07 ◼   ► However, there are fewer and fewer areas

00:14:12 ◼   ► where you shouldn't use SwiftUI.

00:14:14 ◼   ► And over time, that's going to shrink.

00:14:16 ◼   ► And Apple is going to keep telling us UIKit is not

00:14:20 ◼   ► going anywhere.

00:14:22 ◼   ► In the same way, they're saying you can still use VST.

00:14:24 ◼   ► You can.

00:14:25 ◼   ► You can still use UIKit.

00:14:27 ◼   ► You can still do these things.

00:14:28 ◼   ► However, it is very clear to me how many years

00:14:32 ◼   ► have I been using UIKit since 2008.

00:14:36 ◼   ► So a 14-year veteran of UIKit?

00:14:40 ◼   ► It's extremely clear to me that there

00:14:44 ◼   ► are lots of capabilities being added to the frameworks

00:14:47 ◼   ► that you can only do in SwiftUI, even within UIKit kind

00:14:51 ◼   ► of areas, things like, how do you

00:14:54 ◼   ► put this kind of thing in a navigation bar,

00:14:57 ◼   ► but I want the text to be over here?

00:14:59 ◼   ► I keep hitting stuff like that where

00:15:00 ◼   ► I know how to do it in UIKit, and it

00:15:03 ◼   ► takes a whole bunch of hacks or a huge amount

00:15:05 ◼   ► configuration and huge amount of code.

00:15:07 ◼   ► Or there are certain things that I know

00:15:10 ◼   ► really aren't possible to do in UIKit

00:15:12 ◼   ► without rewriting the whole control from scratch,

00:15:14 ◼   ► and SwiftUI lets me do it in two lines.

00:15:17 ◼   ► So I'm seeing now, there's so many areas

00:15:20 ◼   ► where I'm using SwiftUI and I'm hitting things

00:15:23 ◼   ► that I know I couldn't do either at all

00:15:26 ◼   ► or without a whole bunch of work in UIKit

00:15:28 ◼   ► that just happened in SwiftUI.

00:15:30 ◼   ► And so it's to the point now where I had to adjust

00:15:33 ◼   ► something in UIKit, I forget what it was,

00:15:35 ◼   ► and it felt like writing assembly code

00:15:38 ◼   ► compared to what I've been doing.

00:15:40 ◼   ► It's like, what, I have to do everything.

00:15:43 ◼   ► Why do I need to do all this?

00:15:44 ◼   ► This is so clunky.

00:15:46 ◼   ► And yeah, so, SwiftUI, I don't think SwiftUI is the future.

00:15:52 ◼   ► It's the present.

00:15:54 ◼   ► It is here now, and I think that anybody

00:15:58 ◼   ► who is making iPhone apps in particular, or iPad,

00:16:03 ◼   ► iOS apps, we'll get to that, but this whole thing

00:16:07 ◼   ► we're calling iPad OS its own thing, okay, it's iOS.

00:16:10 ◼   ► Anybody who's making iOS apps,

00:16:13 ◼   ► you need to be using SwiftUI.

00:16:14 ◼   ► If you want your skills to be modern

00:16:17 ◼   ► and to have a strong future, you need to be using SwiftUI.

00:16:21 ◼   ► That's it, UIKit is on its way out.

00:16:24 ◼   ► I'm telling you, it is very obvious when you use SwiftUI,

00:16:27 ◼   ► oh, this is where the work is going.

00:16:29 ◼   ► and UIKit is not, you know, that's,

00:16:31 ◼   ► UIKit's clearly in maintenance/legacy teams mode

00:16:36 ◼   ► because there's still a huge amount of UIKit code out there

00:16:40 ◼   ► and there will be for decades, you know,

00:16:41 ◼   ► so they have to maintain it.

00:16:43 ◼   ► But that's not where the effort's going.

00:16:44 ◼   ► The effort's going into SwiftUI.

00:16:46 ◼   ► And when it comes to Apple,

00:16:48 ◼   ► you wanna be where the effort's going.

00:16:49 ◼   ► Like, you don't wanna be where they're in maintenance mode.

00:16:53 ◼   ► They don't often put a lot of resources into that, you know.

00:16:56 ◼   ► So you want to generally be where the maintenance is going.

00:16:59 ◼   ► I think what I want to do now is really

00:17:04 ◼   ► take Overcast very strongly into the present day,

00:17:08 ◼   ► code-wise and API-wise, and to some degree design-wise

00:17:11 ◼   ► as well.

00:17:12 ◼   ► I was happy with the redesign that I did last winter.

00:17:17 ◼   ► I need to go further with that, much further.

00:17:19 ◼   ► And I need to rewrite vast swaths of the app in SwiftUI.

00:17:24 ◼   ► and vast swaths of the underlying code

00:17:29 ◼   ► in Swift and Swift async and possibly CloudKit.

00:17:34 ◼   ► That's the direction I need to go

00:17:35 ◼   ► because if I stay where I am, I'm stuck, I can't go anywhere.

00:17:38 ◼   ► I'm so burdened by my huge amount of complex legacy code,

00:17:43 ◼   ► I need to start the very long and initially painful process

00:17:49 ◼   ► of modernizing it all.

00:17:50 ◼   ► But the good thing is I think at the end,

00:17:52 ◼   ► I'll be in a much better place

00:17:53 ◼   ► and it will have a much better future.

00:17:55 ◼   ► Because frankly, getting a little bigger picture here,

00:17:57 ◼   ► I don't want to sell this app and go do something else.

00:18:01 ◼   ► I wanna keep working on this app, I like it.

00:18:04 ◼   ► I still use it, it's still a great business.

00:18:06 ◼   ► I don't want someone else to take it and mess it up.

00:18:08 ◼   ► I haven't had great experiences with selling stuff

00:18:11 ◼   ► and having it be working out well for me.

00:18:14 ◼   ► So I wanna just keep this.

00:18:17 ◼   ► I want this to be kind of my long-term thing.

00:18:19 ◼   ► And as an app monogamist, I guess,

00:18:22 ◼   ► a serial app monogamous, like you were saying,

00:18:25 ◼   ► Casey, a few minutes ago, how fun it is

00:18:27 ◼   ► to do something brand new and to see,

00:18:29 ◼   ► oh, this is how I would do it if I was doing it new.

00:18:31 ◼   ► Well, when your job is basically you have one app

00:18:34 ◼   ► and you stick with that app for five to 10 years,

00:18:37 ◼   ► you hardly ever get to do that.

00:18:38 ◼   ► You hardly ever get to do things the new way

00:18:41 ◼   ► or rewrite things from scratch.

00:18:42 ◼   ► That's almost never on the table

00:18:44 ◼   ► when that's the way you work.

00:18:46 ◼   ► If there was some hot new thing I wanted to do,

00:18:49 ◼   ► this is the time in my life where I would just go do that.

00:18:52 ◼   ► But there isn't, I wanna still do this.

00:18:54 ◼   ► I just wanna do it like, you know, well and modern

00:18:57 ◼   ► and you know, get myself moving again.

00:18:59 ◼   ► So that's what I'm gonna do.

00:19:02 ◼   ► - I don't know, it's funny too because even though

00:19:05 ◼   ► the apps that are already in the app store for me

00:19:08 ◼   ► are not that big and they make a little bit of money

00:19:11 ◼   ► but it's not, you know, it's not overcast money

00:19:13 ◼   ► and I don't mean that to be flippant, I'm being genuine.

00:19:16 ◼   ► But even still, when I work on this new thing,

00:19:19 ◼   ► That may or may not ever be a real app.

00:19:22 ◼   ► I can't help but feel guilty

00:19:23 ◼   ► that I'm leaving my existing kids to wither.

00:19:28 ◼   ► And yet I feel like in ways

00:19:31 ◼   ► that you articulated very eloquently

00:19:33 ◼   ► that sometimes you just need that.

00:19:35 ◼   ► You need that distraction.

00:19:36 ◼   ► You need that to rev your engine

00:19:39 ◼   ► and to get yourself just cruising again.

00:19:41 ◼   ► And as we beat these carnal Gs to death.

00:19:44 ◼   ► But no, I agree with you.

00:19:47 ◼   ► And even though I feel guilty,

00:19:49 ◼   ► I figure, you know, I'll give myself a little bit more time with this and if I hit a wall where I'm really like, oh

00:19:54 ◼   ► This is just this is just not worth it. Then that's my answer, you know, and then then that's that's that

00:20:00 ◼   ► But if I continue and next thing I know I'm releasing this to the App Store then hey, that's awesome

00:20:05 ◼   ► There's nothing wrong with that either

00:20:06 ◼   ► So we'll see but uh, but I am I'm also having fun right now and I don't want to lose that momentum

00:20:12 ◼   ► And I hope you don't either

00:20:14 ◼   ► Now real time ish follow up

00:20:16 ◼   ► The modern Corvette c7 modern 911s last I checked seven speed manual transmissions most cars still six speeds though

00:20:23 ◼   ► Okay, so starting in seventh gear. All right

00:20:25 ◼   ► And it's totally different for automatics, which now have like 12 years

00:20:28 ◼   ► Oh and and to answer hey you DVD in the chat

00:20:31 ◼   ► Hey, you DVD asks

00:20:32 ◼   ► Is there a way to have the smart speed settings and overcast?

00:20:35 ◼   ► Detect when music is playing and automatically switch to 1x and then resume the factor speed when talking resumes or is it a difficult problem to?

00:20:42 ◼   ► Solve well, hey you DVD

00:20:45 ◼   ► Now I'm announcing for the very first time,

00:20:47 ◼   ► this is one of those features that I've tried to do

00:20:50 ◼   ► over the last few years and have failed to do.

00:20:52 ◼   ► This is something that I have put

00:20:54 ◼   ► a significant amount of time into.

00:20:55 ◼   ► In fact, when I briefly mentioned that,

00:21:01 ◼   ► when I talked about the 16 inch

00:21:03 ◼   ► and how I've only heard the fans spin up once,

00:21:05 ◼   ► and it was because I was stressing the CPU and GPU

00:21:08 ◼   ► for multiple hours, what I was doing was training a model

00:21:12 ◼   ► to detect music versus speech.

00:21:13 ◼   ► That's what that was.

00:21:14 ◼   ► I gave it a huge amount of samples

00:21:17 ◼   ► that I pulled from podcasts everywhere

00:21:18 ◼   ► and was detecting music versus speech

00:21:20 ◼   ► and this massive amount of data

00:21:22 ◼   ► and it was churning on that

00:21:23 ◼   ► trying to generate an ML model to do that.

00:21:26 ◼   ► And the answer is yes, it is possible to detect music.

00:21:30 ◼   ► It is not, it doesn't work as well as I want it to

00:21:34 ◼   ► and there are a lot of limitations

00:21:36 ◼   ► and a lot of costs to doing it

00:21:38 ◼   ► that I'm not yet willing to bear for it,

00:21:42 ◼   ► for the quality that I was able to achieve.

00:21:44 ◼   ► So maybe in the future, if I get it to work better

00:21:46 ◼   ► and to have fewer downsides, yeah, I'd love to do that.

00:21:50 ◼   ► But I'm not there yet, and I don't know

00:21:51 ◼   ► if I'll ever get there.

00:21:52 ◼   ► But that's one of the many things that I have tried to do

00:21:54 ◼   ► and it just didn't work.

00:21:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, I remember you talked about that privately with us

00:21:58 ◼   ► and I still do admire the lengths you were going through

00:22:03 ◼   ► in order to try to get this to work,

00:22:05 ◼   ► but I don't blame you for not only getting frustrated by it,

00:22:07 ◼   ► but putting it aside as well.

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00:24:10 ◼   ► uh...

00:24:14 ◼   ► those they are much longer pre-show than i think any of the three of us

00:24:17 ◼   ► intended that's okay i think that was valuable

00:24:19 ◼   ► uh... but we should file through some follow up before we get to the meat of

00:24:21 ◼   ► the episode and let's start with apple t_v_'s match contents

00:24:26 ◼   ► uh... which by the way i tried i had it off and i tried it very briefly

00:24:30 ◼   ► and by turned it on and i forgive me i don't remember the exact settings

00:24:34 ◼   ► scissors like sub settings or whatever

00:24:35 ◼   ► i think it's turned it fall on

00:24:38 ◼   ► and

00:24:38 ◼   ► Literally that very day, like an hour later,

00:24:42 ◼   ► Declan came running out, I think I was on the screen,

00:24:44 ◼   ► and Porsche came running out.

00:24:46 ◼   ► Dad, dad, dad, something's wrong with the TV.

00:24:48 ◼   ► It's going black like a lot.

00:24:51 ◼   ► Like, anytime I do anything, it goes black for a long time.

00:24:53 ◼   ► It's like, huh, oh, I bet I know what that is.

00:24:56 ◼   ► And so I turned it right back off.

00:24:58 ◼   ► Just, it was on for like three hours.

00:25:00 ◼   ► And I decided it was not for me.

00:25:02 ◼   ► But that's just my experience.

00:25:04 ◼   ► I know you should probably listen to Jon,

00:25:05 ◼   ► 'cause Jon actually knows what he's talking about.

00:25:06 ◼   ► But tell me about HDMI QMS, Jon.

00:25:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, so the black screen thing is one of the big downsides.

00:25:12 ◼   ► I warned everybody about it, but now people are trying it

00:25:14 ◼   ► and they're like, "You weren't kidding."

00:25:16 ◼   ► - The screen goes black between doing stuff.

00:25:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, it does.

00:25:18 ◼   ► And the analogy I made was to, you know,

00:25:21 ◼   ► when we got the ARM-based Macs and all of a sudden

00:25:24 ◼   ► changing screen resolution was like instant

00:25:26 ◼   ► and plugging in an external monitor was like instant

00:25:28 ◼   ► as compared to the Intel days when your screen

00:25:30 ◼   ► would go black for a while and then it would come back in

00:25:32 ◼   ► at the new resolution.

00:25:33 ◼   ► It's like we need that to happen in the television world.

00:25:37 ◼   ► There is actually a subpart of the HDMI 2.1A spec,

00:25:42 ◼   ► a feature called quick media switching

00:25:44 ◼   ► that is trying to address this problem.

00:25:47 ◼   ► Unfortunately, it does it by leveraging VRR,

00:25:51 ◼   ► variable refresh rate,

00:25:52 ◼   ► because the variable refresh rate lets things like games,

00:25:55 ◼   ► like not be at a fixed refresh,

00:25:57 ◼   ► not have the television not be at a fixed refresh rate.

00:25:59 ◼   ► So the television doesn't say,

00:26:00 ◼   ► I'm going to show you 30 new pictures every second.

00:26:02 ◼   ► The television instead is kind of led by the game and saying,

00:26:05 ◼   ► hey game, when you've got a new frame, give it to me,

00:26:07 ◼   ► and then I, the television, will display it.

00:26:08 ◼   ► I'm not gonna be on this regimented schedule.

00:26:11 ◼   ► I will vary my frame rate based on, you know,

00:26:13 ◼   ► so it's good for games.

00:26:14 ◼   ► Well, that same feature, as you can imagine,

00:26:16 ◼   ► could be used to seamlessly change the frame rate

00:26:19 ◼   ► when going from, say, a 60 hertz Apple TV menu screen

00:26:23 ◼   ► to a 29.97 hertz television show

00:26:28 ◼   ► that you're watching on Netflix

00:26:30 ◼   ► or something like that, right?

00:26:31 ◼   ► Why have the screen go black?

00:26:32 ◼   ► why not just use VRR to change the frame rate?

00:26:34 ◼   ► That's what QMS does, but there are caveats.

00:26:37 ◼   ► The first one is that it's part of the HDMI 2.1A spec

00:26:41 ◼   ► and like everything in HDMI 2.1, it's optional.

00:26:44 ◼   ► So you're a thing that says HDMI 2.1 somewhere in the specs,

00:26:47 ◼   ► maybe it doesn't have this feature.

00:26:49 ◼   ► Second thing is this thing works only as long

00:26:52 ◼   ► as the resolution remains the same.

00:26:54 ◼   ► So the only thing that can change is the frame rate, right?

00:26:58 ◼   ► I don't know because I haven't tested this.

00:27:00 ◼   ► I don't know if that also encompasses SDR versus HDR.

00:27:05 ◼   ► I imagine that's also excluded because the sentence,

00:27:08 ◼   ► again, I'll read it right from the spec,

00:27:09 ◼   ► as long as the resolution remains the same

00:27:11 ◼   ► and only the frame rate changes.

00:27:13 ◼   ► Well, changing from SDR to HDR,

00:27:15 ◼   ► I would say that counts as not only the frame rate changing,

00:27:18 ◼   ► but still it can help in those cases.

00:27:21 ◼   ► Another caveat,

00:27:22 ◼   ► both devices have to support this optional feature.

00:27:25 ◼   ► So the Apple TV has to support it,

00:27:26 ◼   ► which I'm pretty sure it doesn't,

00:27:28 ◼   ► and your television or your receiver

00:27:30 ◼   ► or would ever have to support it.

00:27:31 ◼   ► So you have to have both ends of it.

00:27:32 ◼   ► It could be added to devices through a firmware update

00:27:35 ◼   ► according to this fact that we'll link in the show notes.

00:27:37 ◼   ► So there is some hope that you might not have

00:27:39 ◼   ► to buy new devices, but if the thing you have

00:27:41 ◼   ► doesn't even support HDMI 2.1, which is common

00:27:43 ◼   ► for a lot of people's older setups,

00:27:45 ◼   ► then you can forget about it.

00:27:46 ◼   ► I kind of wish they had reached a little farther

00:27:51 ◼   ► for the stars here and say,

00:27:52 ◼   ► "We're gonna solve this problem, but only for frame rate."

00:27:55 ◼   ► Well, you know HDR and SDR are a thing,

00:27:57 ◼   ► and I feel like that is the main time,

00:27:59 ◼   ► The most difficult decision I have in choosing

00:28:02 ◼   ► what the settings are is going forward,

00:28:05 ◼   ► I would imagine there will be more and more HDR content

00:28:08 ◼   ► 'cause HDR content looks better than SDR content.

00:28:11 ◼   ► It's what I'm looking for in my fancy new TV.

00:28:14 ◼   ► The best they can do is show me 4K HDR content,

00:28:18 ◼   ► but there's stuff that's just 4K in SDR.

00:28:20 ◼   ► There's stuff that's 1080p in SDR,

00:28:22 ◼   ► all the way down the line.

00:28:23 ◼   ► So I would imagine over time, it'll be more and more HDR.

00:28:27 ◼   ► And that's why I run the UI on my Apple TV

00:28:32 ◼   ► in 4K Dolby Vision.

00:28:35 ◼   ► Like just the little thing with the little rectangles.

00:28:36 ◼   ► I run that in 4K Dolby Vision,

00:28:38 ◼   ► which just like, it doesn't make any sense.

00:28:39 ◼   ► Like there's no HDR content on the menu screen.

00:28:42 ◼   ► Like why are you even doing that?

00:28:43 ◼   ► I'm doing that because I hope against hope

00:28:46 ◼   ► that I can go from the 4K HDR menu

00:28:50 ◼   ► right into 4K HDR content.

00:28:52 ◼   ► And it won't have to black out the screen

00:28:54 ◼   ► because nothing changes.

00:28:55 ◼   ► In practice, I can tell you that rarely happens, if ever,

00:28:59 ◼   ► because maybe just the way the Apple TV

00:29:00 ◼   ► does the app launching where it always blacks it out

00:29:02 ◼   ► or whatever, that's what I'm hoping will happen.

00:29:04 ◼   ► So anyway, keep your fingers crossed

00:29:06 ◼   ► for seven years from now when HDMI QMS quick media syncing

00:29:11 ◼   ► is available on all our devices.

00:29:13 ◼   ► Another thing people sent me in response to this

00:29:16 ◼   ► was that the YouTube app,

00:29:17 ◼   ► apparently if you watch the YouTube app on your Apple TV

00:29:20 ◼   ► and you don't have like whatever the hell it's called

00:29:22 ◼   ► where you don't see ads in YouTube,

00:29:24 ◼   ► honestly, I don't even know what that is

00:29:25 ◼   ► I've been paying for it for years.

00:29:26 ◼   ► If you see ads on YouTube, every time YouTube plays an ad,

00:29:30 ◼   ► blacks out the screen.

00:29:31 ◼   ► Because the ads are a different frame rate or resolution

00:29:33 ◼   ► or HDR than the video.

00:29:35 ◼   ► And it's just maddening.

00:29:36 ◼   ► It's impossible to use.

00:29:37 ◼   ► You can't keep match content on if you use YouTube TV

00:29:41 ◼   ► or whatever to actually watch stuff.

00:29:44 ◼   ► Can you imagine every commercial bracket blacked out?

00:29:46 ◼   ► It's ridiculous, right?

00:29:48 ◼   ► And on that front, if you just can't run it

00:29:51 ◼   ► because the blackouts are too much

00:29:52 ◼   ► because you have a kid who will not deal with the blackouts.

00:29:54 ◼   ► and I don't blame you, I put up with it

00:29:56 ◼   ► because I want the best of the best,

00:29:57 ◼   ► I don't want it to be cleaned straight through

00:29:58 ◼   ► and have everything match up,

00:29:59 ◼   ► I can tolerate the black screen for two seconds,

00:30:01 ◼   ► I'm also not channel surfing or going from app to app,

00:30:04 ◼   ► I'm watching one show, it's fine.

00:30:06 ◼   ► Most modern TVs will actually undo the damage done

00:30:11 ◼   ► by trying to watch 24 frames per second content

00:30:14 ◼   ► in a 60 hertz thing, right?

00:30:15 ◼   ► So what happens is you put your Apple TV in whatever,

00:30:19 ◼   ► in 60 hertz, right?

00:30:20 ◼   ► And it's just locked there all the time.

00:30:23 ◼   ► And then even when you watch a movie,

00:30:24 ◼   ► it sends 60 hertz signals to the television

00:30:28 ◼   ► filled with janky 24 frames per second video

00:30:31 ◼   ► where some frames are displayed longer than other frames.

00:30:35 ◼   ► So it sends that gross signal to the television.

00:30:37 ◼   ► And then the television says,

00:30:39 ◼   ► "Well, I've got a 60 hertz video signal talking to me."

00:30:41 ◼   ► But it like looks at the image and says,

00:30:44 ◼   ► "Yeah, this is 60 hertz, but it looks kinda like,

00:30:47 ◼   ► it seems kinda like it's actually 24 frame per second

00:30:50 ◼   ► content where some frames are being shown longer than others

00:30:52 ◼   ► So I'll fix that for you.

00:30:53 ◼   ► And basically it takes the incoming frames,

00:30:56 ◼   ► batches them up into batches.

00:30:57 ◼   ► Okay, so these three 60 hertz frames

00:31:00 ◼   ► look like one frame because nothing changed.

00:31:01 ◼   ► Then these two 60 hertz frames look like nothing changed.

00:31:03 ◼   ► So these are a frame.

00:31:04 ◼   ► And then it basically shows 24 frames per second

00:31:07 ◼   ► by de-janking your content.

00:31:09 ◼   ► Like it's called judder, auto de-judder.

00:31:12 ◼   ► So we'll put a link into the Artings article

00:31:13 ◼   ► where Artings when they rate television

00:31:15 ◼   ► tells you whether your television can do this or not.

00:31:19 ◼   ► Obviously me with my empathy for the machine thinks

00:31:21 ◼   ► this is awful.

00:31:22 ◼   ► Why would I send a screwed up signal to my TV?

00:31:25 ◼   ► And let my TV use video processing to unscrew it up.

00:31:28 ◼   ► Why don't I just send the TV 24 frames every second?

00:31:30 ◼   ► And that's why I turn on match content

00:31:32 ◼   ► and that's why I recommend it.

00:31:33 ◼   ► But if you really can't stand the black screen,

00:31:35 ◼   ► check out this RTINGS link,

00:31:36 ◼   ► see if your television can de-judger it.

00:31:39 ◼   ► And if your television can't,

00:31:40 ◼   ► what you'll see is,

00:31:42 ◼   ► like there's a little hitch in the movement.

00:31:43 ◼   ► You'll see it mostly like in slow panning shots or whatever,

00:31:45 ◼   ► but it shows certain frames for longer than other frames.

00:31:48 ◼   ► And it's, you know, if you're not sensitive to it,

00:31:50 ◼   ► maybe you'll never notice,

00:31:51 ◼   ► but I notice and I don't like it.

00:31:53 ◼   ► So there you have it.

00:31:55 ◼   ► I still recommend the match content.

00:31:56 ◼   ► - It's John Sirkius' story.

00:31:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, and also the, so I was gonna ask you Casey,

00:32:00 ◼   ► but it seems like you can't remember

00:32:01 ◼   ► and I haven't looked at it recently.

00:32:02 ◼   ► I think there are two settings.

00:32:03 ◼   ► One is do you want me to match the frame rate?

00:32:05 ◼   ► And the de-jutter thing will fix that for you.

00:32:08 ◼   ► But the other one is, do you want me to match HDR versus SDR?

00:32:12 ◼   ► - I believe you are correct.

00:32:13 ◼   ► And I didn't spend the time to piddle about

00:32:16 ◼   ► and figure out which one was the more offensive one.

00:32:19 ◼   ► if one was the real issue.

00:32:21 ◼   ► - Well, I can tell you which one

00:32:23 ◼   ► is definitely more offensive.

00:32:24 ◼   ► So the frame rate thing the TV can save you from,

00:32:27 ◼   ► but HDR versus SDR, if you don't have that turned on,

00:32:31 ◼   ► then I think bad things will happen no matter what.

00:32:33 ◼   ► Because if you have it just set to SDR

00:32:35 ◼   ► and you try to watch a show that's supposed to be in HDR,

00:32:37 ◼   ► best case, you'll just miss out on the HDR,

00:32:39 ◼   ► which is crappy.

00:32:40 ◼   ► Like you pay for an HDR TV, don't like never see HDR content

00:32:44 ◼   ► because you have Apple TV stuck into SDR, right?

00:32:47 ◼   ► But worst case, it will try to show it in HDR,

00:32:50 ◼   ► or the TV will think it's getting an HDR signal,

00:32:52 ◼   ► but it could be really messed up

00:32:54 ◼   ► and your picture will be all screwed up, right?

00:32:56 ◼   ► So I think match HDR versus SDR,

00:32:58 ◼   ► you kinda have to turn that on.

00:33:00 ◼   ► And if you try to do it the other way,

00:33:02 ◼   ► I'm gonna force everything into HDR.

00:33:03 ◼   ► That will also screw up all your SDR content.

00:33:05 ◼   ► So really, I think that one is the one

00:33:07 ◼   ► that no television, I don't think there's anything

00:33:10 ◼   ► that the television can do to save you from it.

00:33:11 ◼   ► You really need to watch HDR content in HDR.

00:33:14 ◼   ► How much SDR content in HDR?

00:33:15 ◼   ► The frame rate, the television can try to save you

00:33:17 ◼   ► from using image processing, but it's kind of gross.

00:33:20 ◼   ► - So I'm talking straight out of my keyster

00:33:21 ◼   ► 'cause I don't have an Apple TV in the room I'm in

00:33:23 ◼   ► and I don't have a TV that I can see from where I'm sitting.

00:33:25 ◼   ► - Have you heard our show before, Casey?

00:33:27 ◼   ► - Fair, fair.

00:33:29 ◼   ► If you're interested in talking out of our keysters,

00:33:31 ◼   ► then let me tell you about neutral.

00:33:33 ◼   ► But anyways, my recollection is that I had everything off

00:33:37 ◼   ► when I arrived at the setting after we spoke last week.

00:33:41 ◼   ► Again, I could be lying by accident,

00:33:42 ◼   ► but I had everything off.

00:33:43 ◼   ► And I can tell you that all the video content that I have been watching on this Apple TV

00:33:47 ◼   ► 4K for the last year or so, it all looked correct.

00:33:52 ◼   ► Now maybe I wasn't getting HDR when I thought I was.

00:33:56 ◼   ► As we all know of the three of us, I have probably the least discerning eye for this

00:33:59 ◼   ► sort of thing.

00:34:00 ◼   ► But I can tell you that when I watch Dolby Vision content on my LG C9, it shows a little

00:34:06 ◼   ► Dolby Vision icon in the upper right hand corner of the screen for a couple seconds

00:34:09 ◼   ► when it goes into what I presume to be the Dolby Vision mode.

00:34:13 ◼   ► And when I watch something on like Disney Plus, for example, that I know should be Dolby

00:34:18 ◼   ► Vision, it shows up as Dolby Vision on the television.

00:34:23 ◼   ► And that's not an Apple TV thing as far as I'm aware.

00:34:26 ◼   ► That's the actual television showing that.

00:34:28 ◼   ► So even if I'm in the fully off match content mode, it appears that it is doing something

00:34:36 ◼   ► to give me the Dolby Vision stuff that I'm asking for when I'm asking for it.

00:34:39 ◼   ► Does that make sense?

00:34:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, if you look in the Apple TV interface,

00:34:42 ◼   ► it has this weird, I don't know if it's an Apple TV

00:34:45 ◼   ► distinction or something else,

00:34:45 ◼   ► like it's not just the Apple TV,

00:34:48 ◼   ► some televisions do this distinguishing

00:34:49 ◼   ► between Dolby Vision and HDR,

00:34:51 ◼   ► which sounds dumb, you're like,

00:34:52 ◼   ► aren't they both, isn't Dolby Vision just a kind of HDR?

00:34:54 ◼   ► It is, the other standard, the competing standard is HDR 10

00:34:58 ◼   ► and there's also HDR 10 plus,

00:34:59 ◼   ► but very often Dolby Vision is treated--

00:35:01 ◼   ► - Is it pronounced HDR X?

00:35:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, very often Dolby Vision is treated

00:35:06 ◼   ► as a separate thing, so Dolby Vision may be excluded

00:35:09 ◼   ► from the like match HDR versus SDR

00:35:11 ◼   ► because it'd be like, well, forget about HDR and SDR.

00:35:13 ◼   ► This is Dolby Vision

00:35:14 ◼   ► and we're always just gonna send this through.

00:35:15 ◼   ► So I don't know the details

00:35:16 ◼   ► and obviously it varies by television as well

00:35:17 ◼   ► because different televisions,

00:35:19 ◼   ► I mean, for example, my television

00:35:20 ◼   ► doesn't even support HDR 10 plus,

00:35:22 ◼   ► which we'll talk about later in the show,

00:35:23 ◼   ► but does support Dolby Vision

00:35:24 ◼   ► and Samsung televisions are basically the opposite.

00:35:26 ◼   ► They don't support Dolby Vision but do support HDR 10 plus

00:35:29 ◼   ► and lots of television support plain old HDR 10.

00:35:31 ◼   ► It's very complicated.

00:35:33 ◼   ► So anyway, try these features out,

00:35:34 ◼   ► see how they work for your actual programming.

00:35:37 ◼   ► If match content just degrades your user experience

00:35:40 ◼   ► to the point where you can't handle it,

00:35:42 ◼   ► then at least look up your TV on the de-jutter list

00:35:44 ◼   ► and see if it can do the right thing with the frame rate.

00:35:46 ◼   ► And if you're happy with how the colors look,

00:35:49 ◼   ► then either you're not getting HDR and don't miss it,

00:35:51 ◼   ► or you are getting it anyway, like Casey seems to be.

00:35:55 ◼   ► - Well, I think.

00:35:56 ◼   ► Who really knows?

00:35:57 ◼   ► But I think so.

00:35:58 ◼   ► - There are things you could use to test this,

00:35:59 ◼   ► but if your television says that it thinks

00:36:01 ◼   ► it's getting a television signal, it's probably right.

00:36:02 ◼   ► I mean, like you said, if it's a television UI doing that,

00:36:05 ◼   ► the Apple TV wouldn't have any influence over that.

00:36:07 ◼   ► - Right, right, right.

00:36:08 ◼   ► Very, very quick follow up.

00:36:09 ◼   ► When the iPhones, what are we on, 14 now?

00:36:12 ◼   ► I've already lost track.

00:36:13 ◼   ► When the iPhones 14 came out with only eSIMs in America,

00:36:18 ◼   ► I was grumbly a little bit because I had said,

00:36:21 ◼   ► in years past with AT&T, I would take my SIM,

00:36:25 ◼   ► my physical SIM, I would move it from one phone to the other

00:36:27 ◼   ► and AT&T would be, well, I mean, they would know,

00:36:30 ◼   ► but they would be none the wiser

00:36:31 ◼   ► from a billing perspective.

00:36:33 ◼   ► They would not bill me the $35 upgrade fee or whatever

00:36:35 ◼   ► that they want to do when you order

00:36:37 ◼   ► like an AT&T locked iPhone or what have you.

00:36:40 ◼   ► Well, this year I'm on Verizon.

00:36:42 ◼   ► This is my first year using an eSIM

00:36:43 ◼   ► and I transferred my physical SIM to an eSIM

00:36:46 ◼   ► before I got my new phone, as we spoke about on the show.

00:36:50 ◼   ► And then when the phone came, I did the eSIM transfer

00:36:52 ◼   ► and it has been a month and whatever, a month and change now

00:36:56 ◼   ► and to the best of my knowledge,

00:36:57 ◼   ► I did not get charged a ridiculous upgrade fee

00:37:01 ◼   ► for upgrading my phone.

00:37:02 ◼   ► Now that's in part because I bought the phone outright, so I think the upgrade fee is often

00:37:07 ◼   ► associated with when you're like financing the phone through the carrier.

00:37:12 ◼   ► But I just wanted to follow up that as far as I can tell I did not get charged an upgrade

00:37:15 ◼   ► fee when I have a phone that I own and I switch from that to a new phone that I also own,

00:37:21 ◼   ► which is very good.

00:37:22 ◼   ► I'm excited about that.

00:37:23 ◼   ► And I feel like I've heard AT&T people say the same thing, but don't quote me on that.

00:37:27 ◼   ► I also have some follow-up for the most recent episode of Upgrade #429, Freedom Doors, which

00:37:33 ◼   ► Jason was very perturbed and lit me up in a very gentle and polite way.

00:37:39 ◼   ► Lit me up privately about the fact that we did not mention trackpad gestures during our

00:37:44 ◼   ► disaster of a window management segment.

00:37:48 ◼   ► And I wanted to mention that for me, I really, really love hot corners.

00:37:53 ◼   ► one for show desktop, one for expose,

00:37:56 ◼   ► where it shows all the open windows.

00:37:58 ◼   ► - Hot Corners sounds like some kind of junk food

00:38:00 ◼   ► that you would love and we'd make fun of you for.

00:38:02 ◼   ► - Oh, hell yeah.

00:38:03 ◼   ► - Burn the roof of your mouth

00:38:04 ◼   ► by eating your hot corners too fast, yeah.

00:38:06 ◼   ► - You know, I haven't had a Hot Pocket in years,

00:38:08 ◼   ► and man, did I love 'em back in the day.

00:38:09 ◼   ► - I didn't say that.

00:38:10 ◼   ► That's their brand.

00:38:11 ◼   ► Their brand is so strong that the word hot

00:38:13 ◼   ► plus burning your mouth immediately says, "Oh, Hot Pockets."

00:38:16 ◼   ► - Well, I feel like they have the problem

00:38:18 ◼   ► of being a food designed for microwaves

00:38:22 ◼   ► means that you're gonna have the edges be way too hot and it'll be frozen.

00:38:26 ◼   ► Yep. Is that the problem with the Hot Pockets? I thought the problem was that they are basically a...

00:38:30 ◼   ► what is it, like a containment vessel? You know how you make a bomb, but you put

00:38:34 ◼   ► something with... you put something with lots of energy inside a contained thing,

00:38:37 ◼   ► right? So the Hot Pockets, the container is the pocket, and the stuff that's inside

00:38:43 ◼   ► it is the lava-like filling, and so it's like a bomb waiting to go... like a

00:38:48 ◼   ► cherry tomato, right? So when you bite into it, you burst the containment, and

00:38:51 ◼   ► And then the hot lava squirts out against the roof of your mouth and burns the skin

00:38:55 ◼   ► off.

00:38:56 ◼   ► Like it's a design, it's part of the design.

00:38:57 ◼   ► It's the fact that it's a pocket.

00:38:59 ◼   ► Yes, yes.

00:39:00 ◼   ► No, I can attest to this.

00:39:01 ◼   ► But man, I should get some hot pockets.

00:39:03 ◼   ► I haven't had those in years.

00:39:04 ◼   ► But anyways.

00:39:05 ◼   ► It doesn't take much encouragement to have Casey eat junk food.

00:39:06 ◼   ► Please stop.

00:39:07 ◼   ► No.

00:39:08 ◼   ► Have a carrot.

00:39:09 ◼   ► Anyway, the point is, so I like these hot corners that I set to expose and show desktop

00:39:16 ◼   ► and whatnot.

00:39:17 ◼   ► And Jason was very, very perturbed with me that I didn't mention the gestures on the

00:39:21 ◼   ► trackpad because if you s- like splay four fingers out that gives you expose and if you

00:39:26 ◼   ► do the same motion with five fingers that gives you show desktop and then if you you

00:39:31 ◼   ► pinch all five fingers back in that will bring you back from show desktop mode and wow this

00:39:37 ◼   ► animation is just kind of disturbingly fast I don't even know what to make of that but

00:39:40 ◼   ► anyways that's the thing that if you use trackpads which I actually do and I have for a couple

00:39:44 ◼   ► of few years now that that's something you can do and I would like to perhaps excuse

00:39:49 ◼   ► or at least provide justification for why I didn't mention them.

00:39:53 ◼   ► So I was a devout mouse, like actual mouse person, like John, for years.

00:39:59 ◼   ► And up until the last, I don't know, two to four years, I just wouldn't, and this is well

00:40:04 ◼   ► after the trackpads were a thing on the desktop, I would not touch a trackpad on the desktop.

00:40:09 ◼   ► Like it was not for me.

00:40:10 ◼   ► Of course I used it on the laptops, but I just did not care for it.

00:40:13 ◼   ► And I don't know what changed, to be honest with you, but all of a sudden I was like,

00:40:16 ◼   ► "Well, let me switch and see what I think," and then I never turned back.

00:40:19 ◼   ► So when I was mousing, I didn't have the gestures for show desktop and expose and stuff like

00:40:25 ◼   ► that, so I had to use hot corners.

00:40:28 ◼   ► Then at this point, my muscle memory was established, and I wasn't seeking a replacement for it,

00:40:33 ◼   ► right?

00:40:34 ◼   ► Seeing that these gestures are a thing, yes, that's probably what I should have brought

00:40:38 ◼   ► up, and it is probably a better approach.

00:40:40 ◼   ► I am issuing my formal apologies to Mr. Jason Snell for not saying anything about this.

00:40:45 ◼   ► I am so sorry, Jason.

00:40:46 ◼   ► I have failed you and I have failed the listeners.

00:40:48 ◼   ► it's for a reason.

00:40:49 ◼   ► It's 'cause I was a dumb mouse person

00:40:51 ◼   ► and I didn't know any better, I'm so sorry.

00:40:53 ◼   ► - I'm gonna rescind Casey's apology.

00:40:55 ◼   ► We weren't giving a complete tour of every feature

00:40:58 ◼   ► of the Mac UI, we were just saying how we manage Windows.

00:41:01 ◼   ► Obviously not gonna be comprehensive.

00:41:02 ◼   ► We also didn't mention the bazillion third party applications

00:41:05 ◼   ► that do stuff, we just talked about our own habits

00:41:07 ◼   ► and gave some suggestions of large categories

00:41:10 ◼   ► of ways that people work.

00:41:11 ◼   ► I suppose if we can be faulted,

00:41:12 ◼   ► it's because we didn't list what we did.

00:41:14 ◼   ► I think one of the major things was like

00:41:15 ◼   ► trackpad gestures, right?

00:41:17 ◼   ► but it was thumbnail sketch by saying,

00:41:19 ◼   ► oh, use full screen and then swipe your fingers

00:41:21 ◼   ► around the track by the switch apps.

00:41:22 ◼   ► And there's obviously more to it than that

00:41:24 ◼   ► because you can do more than just swipe sideways

00:41:26 ◼   ► to get from one space to the other.

00:41:28 ◼   ► There's all those other gestures, but anyway, yeah.

00:41:31 ◼   ► The Mac has lots of features

00:41:32 ◼   ► and that's even before you consider third party apps,

00:41:35 ◼   ► of which there are many.

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00:43:25 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:43:28 ◼   ► - All right, so John, tell me,

00:43:29 ◼   ► do you have some things going on with your mouse now?

00:43:32 ◼   ► - I don't know, it's just like my cheese graters, right?

00:43:34 ◼   ► So we already went through that thing

00:43:35 ◼   ► with my Microsoft Precision mouse,

00:43:37 ◼   ► and one of them went bad and I had to return,

00:43:38 ◼   ► and I had to send the video,

00:43:39 ◼   ► and I bought the backup mouse and it was making noise.

00:43:41 ◼   ► I don't remember what episode that was in.

00:43:42 ◼   ► We talked about it a while ago.

00:43:43 ◼   ► Anyway, it's about almost exactly a year anniversary

00:43:46 ◼   ► of me doing that exchange, and guess what?

00:43:49 ◼   ► One of my meeses is going bad again.

00:43:52 ◼   ► Same problem as before.

00:43:54 ◼   ► At first I thought, oh, is the track pad,

00:43:57 ◼   ► is the mouse pad gummy or something?

00:43:59 ◼   ► Then I'm like, wait a second, no, it's like missing,

00:44:02 ◼   ► I'll move the mouse from left to right three inches,

00:44:04 ◼   ► and a couple of random millimeters

00:44:06 ◼   ► of that three inch movement are not sent to the computer.

00:44:10 ◼   ► And so I took out my other backup mouse and plugged it in,

00:44:12 ◼   ► sure enough the backup mouse works fine and you know I can A/B test them. It's not as bad as it was before so now I'm like

00:44:17 ◼   ► Do I try to RMA this thing again?

00:44:20 ◼   ► Do I have to make a video again? Because the video before was super convincing because I had let it get so bad because I had

00:44:24 ◼   ► misdiagnosed it so many times. Now I know it's coming and it's

00:44:27 ◼   ► It's just a fatal flaw of this mouse I guess is that eventually a year later it just stops working right?

00:44:33 ◼   ► Really disappointing, but if you remember the reason I was using this mouse and I

00:44:38 ◼   ► I can't for the life of me remember if the one that has gone bad is the one that they sent me back as a

00:44:44 ◼   ► refurbished thing or

00:44:46 ◼   ► If it's the brand new backup one that I bought I can't I don't even know which is which which is kind of often look

00:44:51 ◼   ► Up the serial numbers and see if I could figure it out, but they look identical obviously, so I can't tell right

00:44:56 ◼   ► But the other mouse the reason I was using the mouse

00:44:58 ◼   ► I was using is because the other mouse was the one that made the noise when I typed you remember that whole thing like

00:45:02 ◼   ► to type and it would shake your thing.

00:45:05 ◼   ► And so I'm like, but I can't, I just can't stand using,

00:45:07 ◼   ► now that I know what the problem is,

00:45:08 ◼   ► it's like, imagine if the mouse just like

00:45:11 ◼   ► only translated 90% of your motion.

00:45:13 ◼   ► It sounds like, oh, that should be fine, you can use it.

00:45:15 ◼   ► And you can, but it's so annoying.

00:45:16 ◼   ► For me, a devoted mouse user who hates track pads

00:45:20 ◼   ► with a fiery passion, right?

00:45:22 ◼   ► I need to have a mouse that works.

00:45:24 ◼   ► And it's just, it was just making me so upset.

00:45:25 ◼   ► So I took out the other mouse,

00:45:26 ◼   ► but then of course you got the noise.

00:45:28 ◼   ► And so there I am trying to figure out

00:45:30 ◼   ► what the noise is again.

00:45:31 ◼   ► It's just so weird.

00:45:31 ◼   ► Like all the noise goes away when you unplug the USB cable.

00:45:35 ◼   ► So maybe it's something about the cable connector.

00:45:36 ◼   ► Can you make the noise happen on its own?

00:45:38 ◼   ► Why is it that it goes away?

00:45:40 ◼   ► But I think I found it.

00:45:42 ◼   ► Just in fact, just earlier today after days of like,

00:45:46 ◼   ► because then I can't stand the noise of this thing.

00:45:48 ◼   ► Like I'm typing, I can't stand the noise,

00:45:49 ◼   ► but I can't stand the mouse.

00:45:50 ◼   ► Like I can't, you know, I was just,

00:45:51 ◼   ► I was between a rock and a hard place,

00:45:53 ◼   ► but today I think I figured it out.

00:45:55 ◼   ► - Tell me.

00:45:57 ◼   ► - The thing that was making the noise.

00:45:58 ◼   ► If you bring up a picture of this button,

00:46:00 ◼   ► the Microsoft Precision mouse,

00:46:02 ◼   ► the thing that I think was making the noise

00:46:04 ◼   ► was the very skinny three side buttons on the mouse.

00:46:09 ◼   ► One of the reasons I like this mouse

00:46:11 ◼   ► is I don't use side buttons at all

00:46:13 ◼   ► and these side buttons are very, very thin.

00:46:15 ◼   ► They're kind of like wedged in a gap

00:46:17 ◼   ► between the top surface of the mouse

00:46:19 ◼   ► and the side surface of the mouse.

00:46:21 ◼   ► Three very skinny buttons

00:46:22 ◼   ► and one or more of them were rattling up and down

00:46:26 ◼   ► within their sort of containment cage

00:46:29 ◼   ► And that's what was making the noise.

00:46:31 ◼   ► So I took a carefully cut piece of post-it note,

00:46:34 ◼   ► folded it up a few times, took a knife

00:46:37 ◼   ► and wedged it in underneath those buttons.

00:46:40 ◼   ► No more noise.

00:46:41 ◼   ► - Is this the Surface Precision Mouse?

00:46:44 ◼   ► Is that correct, Jon?

00:46:45 ◼   ► - No, it's just called Microsoft Precision Mouse.

00:46:47 ◼   ► There is a Microsoft Surface Mouse,

00:46:49 ◼   ► but Microsoft Precision Mouse, it's black.

00:46:51 ◼   ► It has three buttons on the side, a track, a scroll wheel.

00:46:55 ◼   ► There's a couple of products that look almost identical

00:46:58 ◼   ► that aren't exactly this thing.

00:47:00 ◼   ► But yeah, that's what was making the noise.

00:47:01 ◼   ► So now I have one working mouse that doesn't make noise

00:47:05 ◼   ► and one mouse that doesn't make noise

00:47:06 ◼   ► but the tracking is going.

00:47:08 ◼   ► Not sure what I'm gonna do about it.

00:47:09 ◼   ► I'm kind of upset that the one mouse I really, really like

00:47:12 ◼   ► has multiple problems, 'cause remember the other problem

00:47:14 ◼   ► is that where my thumb rests, it slowly wears away

00:47:16 ◼   ► the soft touch plastic and it gets kind of rumply

00:47:18 ◼   ► and annoying and like eventually like, you know.

00:47:20 ◼   ► So that, still got that problem.

00:47:22 ◼   ► And then they go bad in tracking after about a year.

00:47:24 ◼   ► And then also this one had a rattle,

00:47:25 ◼   ► but at least I've solved the rattle.

00:47:26 ◼   ► So I'm not sure what I'm gonna do about this,

00:47:28 ◼   ► but my plan to just buy like 50 of these,

00:47:31 ◼   ► like Marco's keyboards and have them in reserve

00:47:33 ◼   ► is really like, I stopped it too,

00:47:35 ◼   ► because they were going bad.

00:47:37 ◼   ► And the second one that I bought had a rattle.

00:47:38 ◼   ► So maybe, I don't know.

00:47:39 ◼   ► And I don't wanna spend, like there's an expensive mouse.

00:47:41 ◼   ► It's like $99 retail.

00:47:43 ◼   ► Maybe you can get it for 80 or 70 if you see it on sale.

00:47:46 ◼   ► I don't wanna spend that every year on a mouse,

00:47:48 ◼   ► but I don't know, maybe I do.

00:47:49 ◼   ► Maybe it's the type of thing

00:47:50 ◼   ► when they stop making this mouse,

00:47:51 ◼   ► they'll be like, you know what?

00:47:52 ◼   ► I would willingly pay $100 a year

00:47:53 ◼   ► if I could get a new one of those mice every year.

00:47:54 ◼   ► So we'll see.

00:47:56 ◼   ► I mean, I'll tell you what, for whatever it's worth,

00:47:59 ◼   ► for the gaming PCs we have the Razer mice.

00:48:03 ◼   ► Those are, I think, like 70 or 80 bucks-y

00:48:06 ◼   ► for the ones we have.

00:48:07 ◼   ► I've used Logitech mice before, not super heavily recently,

00:48:11 ◼   ► but the Apple stupid Magic Mouse is still my favorite mouse

00:48:15 ◼   ► in part because I just love the touch nature of it

00:48:19 ◼   ► and the touch scrolling and everything

00:48:21 ◼   ► is just invaluable to me.

00:48:22 ◼   ► That's the biggest part.

00:48:24 ◼   ► But just for whatever it's worth, it lasts.

00:48:27 ◼   ► Like I've never, I don't think I've ever had

00:48:29 ◼   ► one of these die.

00:48:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, apple knives are good quality.

00:48:32 ◼   ► I just don't like the shape of that one.

00:48:34 ◼   ► Like I'm not shunning it for any other reason.

00:48:36 ◼   ► It's just not, and you know, that's basically it.

00:48:39 ◼   ► If it was shaped like this one, I would get it.

00:48:41 ◼   ► 'Cause it's not like I have some dedication

00:48:42 ◼   ► to the scroll wheel versus touch.

00:48:43 ◼   ► I just don't like how that's shaped.

00:48:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, I feel like it's almost a different kind of device

00:48:48 ◼   ► than, like if you're expecting, it's like sour beer.

00:48:50 ◼   ► Like if you say give me a beer

00:48:53 ◼   ► and somebody gives you a sour.

00:48:54 ◼   ► It's like, okay, people like this,

00:48:57 ◼   ► but if you're asking for a beer and you get a sour,

00:49:00 ◼   ► you're gonna be very surprised probably in a negative way.

00:49:03 ◼   ► So I feel like it needs,

00:49:04 ◼   ► it's almost like a separate thing, right?

00:49:06 ◼   ► See also Chicago pizza.

00:49:07 ◼   ► So I feel like the Magic Mouse,

00:49:09 ◼   ► like if you're expecting a mouse, this isn't that.

00:49:13 ◼   ► This is a different thing that you might really like,

00:49:17 ◼   ► but you have to go into it knowing like,

00:49:20 ◼   ► okay, you're gonna have to get used to

00:49:21 ◼   ► holding this differently, moving it differently,

00:49:23 ◼   ► like your whole grip is gonna be different with this

00:49:26 ◼   ► than it is with a mouse.

00:49:27 ◼   ► And I feel like if you are open to that,

00:49:30 ◼   ► then it's wonderful.

00:49:32 ◼   ► And that's like where I landed, I love this mouse

00:49:34 ◼   ► and I've forsaken all other mice

00:49:37 ◼   ► since discovering this one because it's just that good

00:49:39 ◼   ► and none of the other ones have the touch scrolling

00:49:42 ◼   ► integration with Mac stuff.

00:49:43 ◼   ► So like to me, there is no other mouse basically.

00:49:46 ◼   ► Anyway, I'll just say like when I've used like,

00:49:48 ◼   ► you know, the Razer ones, the gaming PCs,

00:49:50 ◼   ► We have three Razer PCs with three mice.

00:49:54 ◼   ► I think I've had to replace four of them

00:49:56 ◼   ► in the last two years.

00:49:57 ◼   ► - Oh my gosh.

00:49:58 ◼   ► - Like, it's just, like, they're terrible.

00:50:01 ◼   ► Like, they're just bad.

00:50:03 ◼   ► And I probably should switch to Logitech or whatever,

00:50:05 ◼   ► but you know, it's kind of what I'm used to.

00:50:06 ◼   ► - Logitech has better reliability.

00:50:07 ◼   ► If I liked how the, like, the MX Master 3

00:50:10 ◼   ► or whatever fancy one I have, like, I like that mouse.

00:50:12 ◼   ► It's just not quite the right shape.

00:50:14 ◼   ► Like, I'm shopping almost entirely by shape.

00:50:16 ◼   ► And then within shapes that I find acceptable,

00:50:18 ◼   ► obviously I want expensive feeling and good,

00:50:19 ◼   ► and this Microsoft was a nice, had all those best attributes.

00:50:23 ◼   ► A lot, but the logic ones, like,

00:50:24 ◼   ► we've had serious logic mice and they've never gone bad.

00:50:27 ◼   ► It's just a question of whether I like the shape or not.

00:50:30 ◼   ► And you know, the Apple one is, you know,

00:50:31 ◼   ► super high quality.

00:50:32 ◼   ► It's just like an Apple thing.

00:50:33 ◼   ► It's got dumb charging, but other than that, it's real nice.

00:50:35 ◼   ► I just wish it was shaped the way I want it to be,

00:50:37 ◼   ► which is not like a low profile piece of sushi.

00:50:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, that is very true.

00:50:42 ◼   ► I will put links in the show notes.

00:50:44 ◼   ► I'm not sure which episode is the one in question,

00:50:47 ◼   ► about ATP number 449,

00:50:49 ◼   ► which was late September of last year.

00:50:52 ◼   ► An unclean mouse, which I think was more about your mousepad

00:50:56 ◼   ► than it was your mouse itself, but maybe that was it.

00:50:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause I thought it was the mousepad.

00:50:59 ◼   ► Yeah, I did the return on September 9th, 2021.

00:51:02 ◼   ► - Okay, there you go.

00:51:03 ◼   ► And then also, ATP episode number 361,

00:51:06 ◼   ► A Button in the Thumb Shelf,

00:51:09 ◼   ► which I presume is also about your mouse.

00:51:11 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:51:12 ◼   ► - All right, where were we?

00:51:13 ◼   ► My goodness.

00:51:13 ◼   ► All right, and then you have had some speaker adventures

00:51:16 ◼   ► or problems or things, what's going on there?

00:51:18 ◼   ► - It's related to your discussion last week

00:51:20 ◼   ► about setting up your new Sonos thing

00:51:22 ◼   ► and the surround speakers and calibrating them

00:51:24 ◼   ► and all that stuff.

00:51:25 ◼   ► Of course I talked about that when I got

00:51:26 ◼   ► all my new TV set up, how I used that Dirac Live app

00:51:29 ◼   ► that you run on your Mac and that it connects

00:51:31 ◼   ► to your receiver.

00:51:33 ◼   ► - Ah, yes, yes.

00:51:33 ◼   ► - You have a microphone that you move

00:51:35 ◼   ► to 17 different spots in the room

00:51:37 ◼   ► to calibrate things or whatever.

00:51:38 ◼   ► And I did that calibration and then shortly after that

00:51:43 ◼   ► when the family started watching the fancy new TV,

00:51:45 ◼   ► It was a persistent complaint from everybody, including me,

00:51:48 ◼   ► but especially my wife,

00:51:49 ◼   ► that she couldn't understand people's dialogue.

00:51:51 ◼   ► And I'm like, oh, that's a problem I can solve

00:51:52 ◼   ► 'cause I can adjust the channels individually.

00:51:55 ◼   ► In fact, my receiver even has like a quick way

00:51:56 ◼   ► to adjust, like just crank up the center channel.

00:51:59 ◼   ► 'Cause if you have surround sound,

00:52:01 ◼   ► the dialogue pretty much always comes

00:52:02 ◼   ► through the center channel.

00:52:03 ◼   ► So it's really easy to just make the dialogue louder

00:52:04 ◼   ► and leave everything the same volume.

00:52:06 ◼   ► And I would do that, but that setting wouldn't stick

00:52:08 ◼   ► 'cause the Dirac settings would always take over.

00:52:10 ◼   ► And I'm like, oh, I just need to readjust this with Dirac.

00:52:12 ◼   ► But eventually it was just like,

00:52:15 ◼   ► She refused to even let me use the external speakers

00:52:17 ◼   ► 'cause the dialogue sounded terrible.

00:52:19 ◼   ► And I'm like, "You know, it does sound pretty bad."

00:52:20 ◼   ► And I was listening to things and I'm like,

00:52:21 ◼   ► "Why is the dialogue,

00:52:23 ◼   ► "why can none of us hear the dial?"

00:52:25 ◼   ► So I'd finally got a chance,

00:52:27 ◼   ► 'cause I would have done this a long time ago,

00:52:29 ◼   ► but to do the direct calibration, you need quiet.

00:52:32 ◼   ► The app yells at you if you try to do anything.

00:52:35 ◼   ► It'll be in the middle of doing some calibration thing

00:52:36 ◼   ► and it'll just stop and pop up a dial

00:52:38 ◼   ► and it'll be like, "I'm sorry, something made a noise."

00:52:40 ◼   ► So that means kids can't be home, wife can't be home,

00:52:44 ◼   ► dog can't be home, construction cannot be happening,

00:52:47 ◼   ► which by the way, they've been ripping up the gas mains

00:52:48 ◼   ► in my street this entire summer.

00:52:50 ◼   ► So no construction can be happening outside.

00:52:52 ◼   ► You know, it's just, it actually needs to be quiet.

00:52:55 ◼   ► So I finally found a time when everybody's gone

00:52:58 ◼   ► and my dog is at the, you know, her doggy play date, right?

00:53:02 ◼   ► And I'm just in the house by myself

00:53:04 ◼   ► and I do the calibration and the D-Roc app is really fancy

00:53:07 ◼   ► and I got okay at using it the first time

00:53:09 ◼   ► I did the calibrations, but I got to go through

00:53:11 ◼   ► so many more times that I'm much better at using it now

00:53:14 ◼   ► and it's kind of, it's not a native Mac app, first of all.

00:53:17 ◼   ► Second of all, it's weird.

00:53:19 ◼   ► It reminds me of like a Unix app.

00:53:20 ◼   ► It's like something from Linux, not even from Windows.

00:53:22 ◼   ► It's really weird looking, or maybe Java.

00:53:25 ◼   ► Anyway, one of the things you do

00:53:28 ◼   ► is after you do the volume adjustment,

00:53:29 ◼   ► which I didn't even know how to use the first few times

00:53:32 ◼   ► that I kind of figured that out.

00:53:34 ◼   ► Another one is where it does,

00:53:36 ◼   ► I don't know what you'd call them,

00:53:36 ◼   ► like frequency response graphs.

00:53:38 ◼   ► You see this for speakers a lot,

00:53:40 ◼   ► but you put the microphone somewhere in a room

00:53:42 ◼   ► and then it plays tones through all the speakers

00:53:43 ◼   ► and you'll see a graph with one line for each speaker saying,

00:53:48 ◼   ► I guess it's amplitude is the y-axis,

00:53:50 ◼   ► I guess it's like how loud it was,

00:53:51 ◼   ► and then the x-axis horizontally is frequency range,

00:53:55 ◼   ► so low frequencies on the left

00:53:56 ◼   ► and high frequencies on the right.

00:53:57 ◼   ► And what you wanna kinda see for a linear response

00:53:59 ◼   ► is pretty much a plateau,

00:54:00 ◼   ► like the speaker doesn't reproduce any frequencies

00:54:04 ◼   ► below whatever hertz,

00:54:05 ◼   ► and then for most of the range of human hearing,

00:54:07 ◼   ► you wanna see a nice, long, steady plateau

00:54:09 ◼   ► with some wiggles saying here, look at the speaker,

00:54:11 ◼   ► it's able to reproduce all these different frequencies

00:54:13 ◼   ► more or less the same amplitude, right?

00:54:15 ◼   ► Obviously no ideal speaker is going to be a perfect plateau.

00:54:17 ◼   ► They're going to wiggle around and everything,

00:54:18 ◼   ► and that's what Dirac is adjusting for

00:54:20 ◼   ► at different locations in the room

00:54:21 ◼   ► to try to level that out with DSP, right?

00:54:24 ◼   ► But what I noticed when I looked at these graphs

00:54:26 ◼   ► is you got all my 5.1 speakers,

00:54:29 ◼   ► but one of the lines was not with the other lines.

00:54:32 ◼   ► It took a nose dive like three-quarters of the way

00:54:35 ◼   ► through the graph.

00:54:37 ◼   ► Basically, my center channel had no high frequencies, right?

00:54:40 ◼   ► And my center channel speaker has like a,

00:54:42 ◼   ► you know, a big cone and driver,

00:54:45 ◼   ► and then it's got one of those little tiny metal-looking

00:54:47 ◼   ► Tweeter-y drivers.

00:54:49 ◼   ► - Tweeters, yes.

00:54:50 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:54:51 ◼   ► And so I took off the little, the mesh,

00:54:53 ◼   ► what is that thing called?

00:54:55 ◼   ► - The grill?

00:54:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, anyway.

00:54:56 ◼   ► I took that off, and I'm trying to figure out,

00:54:59 ◼   ► does this Tweeter work?

00:55:00 ◼   ► So I'm playing some dialogue, and I'm just like,

00:55:02 ◼   ► you know, putting your ear next to the speaker is weird,

00:55:04 ◼   ► and you can't, so I'm just,

00:55:05 ◼   ► I'm gonna touch it with my finger,

00:55:06 ◼   ► 'cause if a speaker is working,

00:55:07 ◼   ► I'm being able to feel some kind of vibration.

00:55:10 ◼   ► I'm not sure if that's entirely true of Tweeters,

00:55:11 ◼   ► but I basically determined that my tweeter

00:55:13 ◼   ► was blown to my center channel.

00:55:15 ◼   ► And I couldn't figure out,

00:55:17 ◼   ► 'cause I don't have ears that are used to picking this out,

00:55:19 ◼   ► couldn't figure it out from listening,

00:55:20 ◼   ► I just said, the dialogue sounds weird,

00:55:21 ◼   ► like it's not clear and we can't hear it,

00:55:24 ◼   ► but when I saw the graph, that was like,

00:55:26 ◼   ► no high frequencies, tweeter broken, right?

00:55:28 ◼   ► So I guess I'm a visual learner, as they say.

00:55:31 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:55:32 ◼   ► So my center channel was bad,

00:55:34 ◼   ► I was pretty sure it was bad based on the graph,

00:55:36 ◼   ► that was pretty incontrovertible reference,

00:55:37 ◼   ► so I needed to buy a new center channel speaker,

00:55:39 ◼   ► but of course the surround speakers I got

00:55:41 ◼   ► are just some cheapo surround speaker setup

00:55:44 ◼   ► I got years ago.

00:55:44 ◼   ► Like it just came with all in one package.

00:55:46 ◼   ► You get all the speakers on the subwoofer

00:55:48 ◼   ► that comes together in a package deal

00:55:49 ◼   ► and this one was pretty well rated

00:55:50 ◼   ► for the price and the quality or whatever.

00:55:53 ◼   ► And importantly, the speakers are very small

00:55:55 ◼   ► 'cause I have to tuck them into weird places in my room.

00:55:57 ◼   ► Like I don't have room for like real speakers, right?

00:56:00 ◼   ► So you can't buy just the center channel.

00:56:04 ◼   ► You can only buy the full set against.

00:56:06 ◼   ► Then I have to go on eBay

00:56:07 ◼   ► find people selling just the center channel, find the one that I thought was the least

00:56:10 ◼   ► gross looking. They sent it to me and it was only slightly broken when I got it in terms

00:56:16 ◼   ► of like the grill was snapped off and it was all kind of, but whatever. I swapped it out

00:56:21 ◼   ► for the other one and lo and behold the graph leveled out and you can understand dialogue

00:56:26 ◼   ► again so yay for applications that show you a visual representation of how your speakers

00:56:30 ◼   ► are performing. And by the way I recalibrated everything and put in an inherent like four

00:56:35 ◼   ► four or five decibel bump to the center channel,

00:56:37 ◼   ► but of everything else, and now everyone in the family

00:56:39 ◼   ► is much happier with the audio.

00:56:41 ◼   ► - Who'd have thunk it?

00:56:42 ◼   ► So, I'm sorry, not that I'm really looking

00:56:45 ◼   ► to defend Marco on this issue,

00:56:47 ◼   ► but you're beating the snot out of Marco last week

00:56:50 ◼   ► for having a two channel setup,

00:56:51 ◼   ► yet one of your channels was effectively broken,

00:56:55 ◼   ► and by your own admission,

00:56:56 ◼   ► all of your speakers are straight up trash.

00:56:59 ◼   ► - They're not trash, they're just not really good.

00:57:02 ◼   ► I mean, I would have bought better speakers

00:57:04 ◼   ► they would have fit, but the places where I have to physically put them are not big

00:57:08 ◼   ► enough to put speakers that sound better than these.

00:57:11 ◼   ► But you say, "Oh, it was broken."

00:57:14 ◼   ► When the tweeter doesn't work, I'm sure someone who's more averse to listening to, "Oh, that

00:57:19 ◼   ► speaker has a blown tweeter," most of the frequencies of speech are not up in the super

00:57:24 ◼   ► high or super low end.

00:57:26 ◼   ► So it's reproducing most of them, but missing out on the few things that do go into the

00:57:30 ◼   ► the highs makes the dialogue a little bit muddier.

00:57:35 ◼   ► I wish I had saved, I really wish I had taken a screenshot

00:57:39 ◼   ► 'cause I would have put it for the chapter art.

00:57:40 ◼   ► If you look at the graph, it falls off earlier

00:57:43 ◼   ► than all the other ones, but if you look at the actual

00:57:44 ◼   ► Hertz number or whatever, 'cause that's what I was doing,

00:57:47 ◼   ► maybe center channels are supposed to do that?

00:57:48 ◼   ► What is the usual frequency range of speech?

00:57:51 ◼   ► And I looked at this frequency range of speech,

00:57:52 ◼   ► and I'm like, yeah, the frequency range of human speech

00:57:54 ◼   ► is right in the plateau part, so maybe that's not,

00:57:57 ◼   ► but anyway, it was just broken.

00:58:00 ◼   ► At any part, if speaker fail in any system,

00:58:04 ◼   ► then you have to fix it.

00:58:05 ◼   ► So if one of the tweeters fails on one of Marco's stereo

00:58:06 ◼   ► speakers, he would have to figure that out somehow

00:58:09 ◼   ► and replace the speaker as well.

00:58:10 ◼   ► It's not a side effect of surround.

00:58:13 ◼   ► But yeah, my speakers are not particularly fancy.

00:58:17 ◼   ► But it was like $500 or $600 for the system

00:58:20 ◼   ► and I bought it a few years ago.

00:58:21 ◼   ► And for a complete surround system that is very, very small,

00:58:25 ◼   ► it works well.

00:58:25 ◼   ► And as far as like Sonos and stuff,

00:58:27 ◼   ► when you're talking about that, one

00:58:29 ◼   ► One of the features I need for my setup is I need them to be small speakers that are

00:58:35 ◼   ► connected with speaker wire because I have no place to plug in anything.

00:58:39 ◼   ► So they either have to be battery powered wireless surrounds, which I don't want to

00:58:42 ◼   ► deal with charging them up or anything like that, or speakers connected with speaker wire

00:58:48 ◼   ► that are small enough to fit in the places I squirrel them away.

00:58:52 ◼   ► My room is not designed for television.

00:58:54 ◼   ► I'm doing what I can here, right?

00:58:56 ◼   ► But yeah, they're pretty good for what they are.

00:58:58 ◼   ► And most importantly, they're way better than the speaker that's built into the television.

00:59:02 ◼   ► In fact, our television has a feature where it can use the TV itself as the center channel,

00:59:07 ◼   ► and that really lets you A/B test exactly how much better even this sort of cheap center

00:59:12 ◼   ► channel speaker is than the television speakers.

00:59:16 ◼   ► I think it's funny that here you are telling Marco that he's a monster for using only two

00:59:22 ◼   ► channels, yet I bet his two speakers that he's using are pretty, pretty nice.

00:59:27 ◼   ► And it sounds like, I'm not sure I could say the same for yours.

00:59:30 ◼   ► Yeah, but I wouldn't want to watch a movie on his two speakers versus my five, that's

00:59:33 ◼   ► for sure.

00:59:34 ◼   ► Does the movie contain any music?

00:59:36 ◼   ► I'm sure it does, but surround sound, man.

00:59:39 ◼   ► Surround sound!

00:59:41 ◼   ► It surrounds you.

00:59:42 ◼   ► Gacy got all done talking about it.

00:59:43 ◼   ► It is an experience that cannot be duplicated by two speakers sitting in front of you.

00:59:49 ◼   ► Moving right along, Marco, tell me about the Apple Watch Ultra screen size, if you please.

00:59:54 ◼   ► So as I mentioned last week, as part of the reason I got the,

00:59:57 ◼   ► one of the biggest reasons I got the Ultra was,

00:59:59 ◼   ► I said the screen is so much bigger,

01:00:01 ◼   ► it makes everything feel different.

01:00:03 ◼   ► Like apps feel different, layouts need to be different,

01:00:06 ◼   ► and a few people pointed out,

01:00:08 ◼   ► the screen is actually not as much bigger as I thought

01:00:11 ◼   ► than the 45 millimeter series seven and eight screens.

01:00:14 ◼   ► Last year with the series seven,

01:00:16 ◼   ► when the screens got bigger,

01:00:17 ◼   ► you got a lot more screen space with that move

01:00:20 ◼   ► than we had before.

01:00:20 ◼   ► and I've been using the 40 and 41 size recently

01:00:24 ◼   ► and so I was used to the smaller size.

01:00:26 ◼   ► So when you actually look at the pixel differences,

01:00:29 ◼   ► the Ultra is bigger than the 45,

01:00:32 ◼   ► but it's not, it's a smaller step

01:00:34 ◼   ► than going from the 41 to the 45.

01:00:37 ◼   ► And so anyway, now that I've been using the Ultra

01:00:40 ◼   ► most of the past week,

01:00:42 ◼   ► where I think it's still very different

01:00:45 ◼   ► is the shape of the screen in addition to the size.

01:00:47 ◼   ► So I still am very happy I have it

01:00:50 ◼   ► and I'm not gonna return it because it is still

01:00:53 ◼   ► very different not having those curved corners,

01:00:57 ◼   ► like the way that the regular Apple Watch is,

01:01:00 ◼   ► the crystal is this big kind of rounded plateau shape.

01:01:03 ◼   ► The Apple Watch Ultra is just a single piece of flat sapphire

01:01:07 ◼   ► and so it is still different enough that I think

01:01:11 ◼   ► if you design an Apple Watch app,

01:01:12 ◼   ► you should probably have one.

01:01:14 ◼   ► That being said, if you're only gonna have one

01:01:19 ◼   ► Apple Watch size that you're gonna design for,

01:01:21 ◼   ► the 44 or 45 is fine.

01:01:24 ◼   ► I looked at my own stats to compare.

01:01:26 ◼   ► The 44/45, if I treat that as one size,

01:01:29 ◼   ► which arguably they might not need to be,

01:01:33 ◼   ► but anyway, if you treat the 44 and 45 as the same size,

01:01:36 ◼   ► 60% of my Apple Watch users use that size.

01:01:39 ◼   ► 30% use 40 or 41.

01:01:43 ◼   ► 6% use the, roughly 6% use the old sizes

01:01:48 ◼   ► like the serious zero to three sizes still.

01:01:51 ◼   ► And already about 5% of my Apple Watch users have the Ultra.

01:01:56 ◼   ► - Wow.

01:01:57 ◼   ► - Which is very impressive for a model

01:02:00 ◼   ► that's only been out for a couple of weeks

01:02:01 ◼   ► and is still in very short supply

01:02:03 ◼   ► and is the highest end on the price scale.

01:02:06 ◼   ► Well, you know, excluding like Hermes and stuff.

01:02:09 ◼   ► So I think this is going to sell like crazy,

01:02:12 ◼   ► especially throughout the holiday season,

01:02:14 ◼   ► especially as supply increases.

01:02:16 ◼   ► So I think, again, if you design an Apple Watch app,

01:02:21 ◼   ► I think you should probably have an Ultra, if you can.

01:02:24 ◼   ► You know, granted it's a luxury,

01:02:26 ◼   ► but it's funny, like somebody on Twitter was like,

01:02:28 ◼   ► you know, they were like feeling bad for me

01:02:30 ◼   ► that I'm buying an Ultra for, you know, almost no users

01:02:34 ◼   ► and it certainly wouldn't pay off for me to have this.

01:02:37 ◼   ► When I tell you that, you know, I think, let me see,

01:02:40 ◼   ► I have something like 20% or so, I think,

01:02:45 ◼   ► of my active users have the Apple Watch app installed.

01:02:49 ◼   ► So it's like, that's not a small number of people.

01:02:52 ◼   ► That's like, that's way more than things

01:02:56 ◼   ► that I've spent a lot more time on.

01:02:58 ◼   ► So trust me, it matters.

01:03:00 ◼   ► I should probably have every Apple Watch size.

01:03:03 ◼   ► I don't, I probably should.

01:03:04 ◼   ► Like that's how much it matters.

01:03:06 ◼   ► And then secondly, as you know, wearing the Ultra,

01:03:09 ◼   ► a few more impressions after a week of wearing it

01:03:12 ◼   ► most of the time, it is really big,

01:03:16 ◼   ► but it's looking less ridiculous on me as I'm used to it.

01:03:20 ◼   ► It's funny, I took the, I took my Tide G Shock watch

01:03:25 ◼   ► out of my car to compare, which when I first got

01:03:28 ◼   ► the Tide watch, I tried it on just to see

01:03:30 ◼   ► what it was like to wear a G Shock

01:03:31 ◼   ► and I never had before, and it seemed ridiculous.

01:03:34 ◼   ► And I'm like, I could never wear this.

01:03:36 ◼   ► Well, when I put it on tonight, like after wearing

01:03:39 ◼   ► the Ultra for a week. The G-Shock is about the same size and a million times lighter.

01:03:46 ◼   ► So it's actually, I will say the, for the, for the Ultra, the, the weight of it, I think

01:03:56 ◼   ► is the biggest challenge because it, because it is such a large watch and they did a good

01:04:00 ◼   ► job making it light for its size. However, it is so big that it needs like a pretty strong

01:04:09 ◼   ► strap and I've been kind of going back and forth between different straps. I

01:04:12 ◼   ► haven't loved any strap option I found for it yet. I have the the orange alpine

01:04:19 ◼   ► loop that's the one that came with it in part because that's what was in stock

01:04:22 ◼   ► but also in part because I think it probably looks the best out of all the

01:04:27 ◼   ► straps that are that are officially for the Ultra. I think it really it really

01:04:31 ◼   ► needs the orange to be used in the straps and I got separately from that

01:04:37 ◼   ► because I really in my lifestyle as mentioned before you know things are wet

01:04:41 ◼   ► all the time around here so I really like rubber straps so the rubber strap

01:04:45 ◼   ► that it has offered does not have an orange option it only has blue white and

01:04:50 ◼   ► yellow I saw them all in the store played with them all didn't really love

01:04:54 ◼   ► any of them but I would set her to go with the blue to try that strap out just

01:04:58 ◼   ► because I have white and for all my other rubber bands I kind of want it's

01:05:01 ◼   ► like something different for the ultra and I didn't think the white looked

01:05:04 ◼   ► amazing with the orange accents of the watch. Whereas the blue I thought kind of played

01:05:09 ◼   ► with that contrast a little bit better. Anyway, I tried the blue Ocean Strap. It's okay. I

01:05:16 ◼   ► still like the sport bands better. Main reason I like the sport bands better is that the

01:05:21 ◼   ► tail tucks in on the sport band and on the Ocean Strap the tail sticks up the way all

01:05:27 ◼   ► other watch straps tend to work. And I understand why they do that. It's more secure the way

01:05:31 ◼   ► they do it and the keeper that which is the little metal loop that you tuck the tail under

01:05:37 ◼   ► after you attach the you know the main buckle there you have like excess strap you tuck

01:05:42 ◼   ► it under this little loop it's called a keeper on the ocean strap I initially thought it

01:05:46 ◼   ► was going to be bad for me because I like when I tried on the store I just had too much

01:05:51 ◼   ► excess and I was like I don't want this excess like tail like snagging on things as I walk

01:05:55 ◼   ► past things but it turns out you you put the keeper wherever you want you know the ocean

01:06:00 ◼   ► strap it's there's a bunch of holes all on the whole strap and the keeper comes

01:06:04 ◼   ► out and you stick it in whatever hole you want it to be in so you can stick it

01:06:08 ◼   ► like near the top and so you so you tuck in almost the entire tail and just a

01:06:13 ◼   ► little bit of it sticking out past the keeper so that I thought was a really

01:06:16 ◼   ► nice little detail there that being said I haven't quite found a comfortable fit

01:06:20 ◼   ► on that strap yet and fit on the ultra is really important because it's so big

01:06:26 ◼   ► and kind of heavy if it's if you don't have a nice snug fit it scoots around

01:06:31 ◼   ► your wrist a lot like it flops back and forth as you move your wrist that the

01:06:34 ◼   ► bigger and heavier a watch is the more they do that and I've still I still have

01:06:38 ◼   ► that problem a lot with the ultra where I haven't yet nailed the fit of a strap

01:06:42 ◼   ► what has fit the best so far is I just put the regular sport band on it and I

01:06:47 ◼   ► don't even have any 44 or 45 millimeter sport bands so I just put on the regular

01:06:53 ◼   ► like 40 millimeter ones that I have that you know they they don't fill the whole

01:06:58 ◼   ► slot where they go in but it actually looks reasonably okay and it's not a

01:07:05 ◼   ► perfect fit it the way that the way those straps kind of curve out from the

01:07:10 ◼   ► watch body looks kind of stupid on me but it does hold it better against my

01:07:15 ◼   ► wrist than the other ones have so far so I'm still still kind of dealing with

01:07:19 ◼   ► that this company Nomad Goods has this orange sport strap

01:07:24 ◼   ► for presale right now, it looks pretty good,

01:07:26 ◼   ► so I ordered one of those to try.

01:07:28 ◼   ► I wish they had more orange straps.

01:07:32 ◼   ► And I'm pretty sure the reason they don't

01:07:34 ◼   ► is because of the Apple Watch Hermes deal.

01:07:37 ◼   ► Hermes is, you know, orange is like their color,

01:07:40 ◼   ► and they're probably protective of that,

01:07:43 ◼   ► and I'm guessing they probably have some deal with Apple,

01:07:47 ◼   ► with the Apple Watch Hermes where maybe Apple's not allowed

01:07:51 ◼   ► to use orange in that many other watch products,

01:07:56 ◼   ► but somehow they negotiated the Alpine loop,

01:07:58 ◼   ► so I don't know how, but anyway,

01:08:00 ◼   ► what the Ultra really needs is a really good

01:08:03 ◼   ► orange sport band.

01:08:05 ◼   ► The problem is that already exists

01:08:09 ◼   ► for the Apple Watch Hermes,

01:08:11 ◼   ► 'cause what I didn't know until I researched it last year

01:08:13 ◼   ► is that the Hermes edition watches,

01:08:16 ◼   ► whatever strap you get with them,

01:08:17 ◼   ► like the $500 leather straps,

01:08:20 ◼   ► they also come with sport bands that are the Hermes Orange.

01:08:25 ◼   ► Apple has occasionally sold orange bands before,

01:08:28 ◼   ► but they're never really orange.

01:08:29 ◼   ► They're like salmon, or they're kind of like,

01:08:31 ◼   ► you know, pinkish orange or yellowish,

01:08:33 ◼   ► like they're not really bold orange.

01:08:35 ◼   ► So the Hermes ones though,

01:08:37 ◼   ► they're only sold with the Hermes watches.

01:08:39 ◼   ► So I got one on eBay last summer,

01:08:42 ◼   ► and I didn't find much use for it as much as I wanted to

01:08:45 ◼   ► with my regular Apple Watch,

01:08:47 ◼   ► but it looks really good with the Ultra.

01:08:50 ◼   ► So right now I'm just using an eBay Hermes one.

01:08:53 ◼   ► Ultimately I think what the Ultra,

01:08:55 ◼   ► I think what I hope they make for it

01:08:58 ◼   ► is the orange, what else is it called?

01:09:02 ◼   ► The Ocean Band.

01:09:03 ◼   ► Like the, so the rubber one that's made for it

01:09:04 ◼   ► with all the circles in it.

01:09:05 ◼   ► I hope they make an orange version of that.

01:09:07 ◼   ► I think that would look really good.

01:09:08 ◼   ► It has these wonderful orange accents on the watch

01:09:11 ◼   ► and you have to really play with those

01:09:13 ◼   ► and work with those to make it look good.

01:09:15 ◼   ► Like I don't think the yellow strap looks good

01:09:17 ◼   ► because it kind of clashes with it.

01:09:18 ◼   ► What you want with orange is you want navy

01:09:21 ◼   ► or dark gray or white maybe.

01:09:24 ◼   ► That's kind of where you want to be

01:09:26 ◼   ► to pair well with orange.

01:09:27 ◼   ► So I'm happy with my orange strap for now

01:09:30 ◼   ► and I'm gonna keep looking for other strap options.

01:09:32 ◼   ► Hopefully that Nomad Goods one ends up being good

01:09:36 ◼   ► because if so, if that ends up being a good strap

01:09:38 ◼   ► then that's it, that's what I want.

01:09:39 ◼   ► But it's not out yet so we'll see how that goes.

01:09:42 ◼   ► Anyway, Ultra Life, other than that, is pretty good.

01:09:45 ◼   ► I have noticed, I don't know if this is simply

01:09:48 ◼   ► because of differences in fit.

01:09:50 ◼   ► During my workout, the Ultra is able to seemingly

01:09:55 ◼   ► keep a much better lock on monitoring my heart rate.

01:09:59 ◼   ► My Series 7, and I think all watches before it,

01:10:02 ◼   ► I'll look down during a workout to check my heart rate,

01:10:05 ◼   ► and a lot of times it'll be like the grayed out numbers

01:10:07 ◼   ► where it's not really measuring yet, you know,

01:10:08 ◼   ► and you gotta kinda wait and keep checking it

01:10:10 ◼   ► over the next few seconds and it'll eventually pop in.

01:10:12 ◼   ► The Ultra seems better at locking it in

01:10:15 ◼   ► and just having it always be monitored.

01:10:17 ◼   ► I don't know if that's a thing that actually has changed

01:10:19 ◼   ► with any of the hardware or whether that's just,

01:10:22 ◼   ► I happen to have a better fit on that for the hole

01:10:25 ◼   ► and the sport band I'm using or whatever, who knows.

01:10:27 ◼   ► But that is something I've noticed.

01:10:29 ◼   ► And if that actually is a thing,

01:10:31 ◼   ► that would be a valuable difference to me.

01:10:35 ◼   ► But anyway, I still, during the few times that I have

01:10:39 ◼   ► in the past week put back on my regular, you know, series seven titanium 41.

01:10:44 ◼   ► It's a dream to put that back on. I like after wearing this thing,

01:10:48 ◼   ► and then to put that on, it's like, I feel like I'm wearing nothing at all.

01:10:51 ◼   ► And I'm like going under sleeves, no problem. It's not chunky. Like, yeah,

01:10:55 ◼   ► I still, I still very much love the regular Apple watch. Uh, so

01:10:59 ◼   ► this is, this is a wonderful thing to play around with,

01:11:02 ◼   ► to get a feel for and design my app for. Um, but I don't,

01:11:05 ◼   ► I don't think I'm going to be sticking with it longterm,

01:11:07 ◼   ► especially as we head solidly into long sleeve season.

01:11:12 ◼   ► - It's good news for your Tesla.

01:11:13 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:11:14 ◼   ► New watch coming its way.

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01:13:12 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Linode for being an awesome web host

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01:13:16 ◼   ► - All right, we should probably get to

01:13:21 ◼   ► the elephant in the room and that is,

01:13:23 ◼   ► Apple has released a bunch of new stuff

01:13:26 ◼   ► and they did it via press release

01:13:28 ◼   ► as the German gods foretold.

01:13:31 ◼   ► We've got, very, very briefly,

01:13:33 ◼   ► We've got a new regular iPad.

01:13:35 ◼   ► We've got a new iPad Pro.

01:13:37 ◼   ► And semi-surprisingly, we've got a new Apple TV.

01:13:40 ◼   ► So I guess we can start with the regular iPad.

01:13:45 ◼   ► This is the iPad 10th generation.

01:13:48 ◼   ► Short short version.

01:13:49 ◼   ► It's using an A14, which is from late 2020, the iPhone 12.

01:13:53 ◼   ► Flat sides, no home button, touch ID on the power lock, whatever you call it, button.

01:13:58 ◼   ► Blue, pink, yellow, and silver.

01:14:00 ◼   ► And isn't there like a gray as well?

01:14:02 ◼   ► I believe gray as well.

01:14:03 ◼   ► - By the way, they called it the top button

01:14:04 ◼   ► in the presentation.

01:14:06 ◼   ► - Ah, my mistake.

01:14:07 ◼   ► 10.9 inch screen.

01:14:09 ◼   ► There's USB-C, Wi-Fi 6, 5G.

01:14:13 ◼   ► It offers both physical and eSIM.

01:14:15 ◼   ► And then there's a,

01:14:18 ◼   ► the front facing camera is on the side,

01:14:21 ◼   ► the way we think of it as a side,

01:14:22 ◼   ► or on the top when you're in landscape,

01:14:24 ◼   ► which here, here, I'm definitely enjoying that.

01:14:28 ◼   ► Then it does not support stage manager,

01:14:32 ◼   ► and it starts a little more expensive,

01:14:34 ◼   ► 450 bucks for the Wi-Fi version,

01:14:36 ◼   ► 600 bucks for the Wi-Fi plus cellular version,

01:14:39 ◼   ► which is about 120 bucks more than last year's model,

01:14:42 ◼   ► and that's 64 gigs.

01:14:44 ◼   ► Also, it uses the original Apple Pencil,

01:14:46 ◼   ► which we have plenty to say about,

01:14:48 ◼   ► talk about in just a minute,

01:14:50 ◼   ► but I wanna gloss over that for just a moment.

01:14:52 ◼   ► And then it also has a new Magic Keyboard Folio,

01:14:55 ◼   ► which is, I don't know what Microsoft calls

01:14:56 ◼   ► Surface keyboard, but it is basically that.

01:15:00 ◼   ► And I have some thoughts on that as well.

01:15:01 ◼   ► But that is the nickel tour of the iPad.

01:15:05 ◼   ► Where would we like to start with this?

01:15:06 ◼   ► A couple of items that you bounced over that I think are worth adding, especially as it

01:15:11 ◼   ► relates to the price.

01:15:12 ◼   ► The screen is not P3.

01:15:15 ◼   ► The Bluetooth is 5.2, which may not mean anything to you, but it'll be interesting to see that

01:15:21 ◼   ► from the hodgepodge of products they announce what Bluetooth standards do other products

01:15:24 ◼   ► get.

01:15:25 ◼   ► Very quickly, I looked into this briefly this morning.

01:15:29 ◼   ► It doesn't seem to me, and Neil, maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't seem to

01:15:32 ◼   ► me that 5.1 adds a whole lot over 5.0, but 5.2 adds low energy audio, which I presume

01:15:41 ◼   ► is something that Apple is interested in, unless they're already doing that with AirPods,

01:15:46 ◼   ► I didn't think they were.

01:15:47 ◼   ► So 5.2 adding low energy audio, which is on this iPad, that might be a big deal in the

01:15:53 ◼   ► future.

01:15:54 ◼   ► This does have a sim slot. So it's got an e-sim as well, but it also supports nano sim

01:15:59 ◼   ► So it's got a slot on it. So they didn't do what they did with the phones there

01:16:02 ◼   ► The it's interesting for the both the speakers and the camera like you know to the the camera is

01:16:09 ◼   ► Not along the short edge. It is along the long edge

01:16:12 ◼   ► They call it the landscape camera the landscape 12 megapixel ultra wide camera, right and the speakers they call landscape stereo speakers

01:16:20 ◼   ► I don't know where the speakers were on previous models

01:16:22 ◼   ► but I'm assuming this is saying that the speakers

01:16:25 ◼   ► are on the short edges,

01:16:26 ◼   ► but they call them landscape stereo speakers

01:16:28 ◼   ► because they're stereo

01:16:29 ◼   ► when you're holding it in landscape mode.

01:16:30 ◼   ► Anyway, their naming is weird, but the camera being moved--

01:16:34 ◼   ► - Everything about this iPad is weird.

01:16:36 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, the first one I saw

01:16:37 ◼   ► that they had moved the landscape camera,

01:16:39 ◼   ► everyone's like, "Oh, that's good

01:16:40 ◼   ► "'cause when you do FaceTime, it'll look more normal."

01:16:41 ◼   ► 'Cause if you've never done FaceTime in landscape mode

01:16:44 ◼   ► on an existing iPad, you're always not quite looking,

01:16:47 ◼   ► it's like sideways to you,

01:16:48 ◼   ► it's to your left or to your right,

01:16:50 ◼   ► so it looks kind of weird.

01:16:52 ◼   ► When it's above, it looks more like you're doing FaceTime

01:16:54 ◼   ► for a Mac, so the camera looks at you a little bit

01:16:56 ◼   ► from above, but at least your eyes are aligned

01:16:58 ◼   ► left, right, wise, you know, to be straight at the screen.

01:17:01 ◼   ► But when I saw that, I'm like, oh, that's great.

01:17:03 ◼   ► That means when I'm unlocking it, my hand won't block

01:17:05 ◼   ► the Face ID thing, and it won't have that arrow.

01:17:07 ◼   ► Oh, it doesn't even have Face ID, nevermind.

01:17:09 ◼   ► So the exciting thing about this product,

01:17:12 ◼   ► oh, one more, I think, the battery, exactly the same size

01:17:15 ◼   ► as the iPad Air, 28.6 watt hours, right?

01:17:18 ◼   ► And so that's what's interesting about this product

01:17:20 ◼   ► before we even get into the Pencil thing is,

01:17:23 ◼   ► how is this not a MacBook, not a MacBook, an iPad Air?

01:17:26 ◼   ► 'Cause I look at this, I'm like, isn't that the iPad Air?

01:17:28 ◼   ► And the answer is no, it's not the iPad Air, it's close.

01:17:33 ◼   ► So here are the differences between this and the iPad Air.

01:17:37 ◼   ► So obviously the iPad Air has the M1 and this doesn't.

01:17:40 ◼   ► And that also means this gets Stage Manager.

01:17:42 ◼   ► Despite the fact that they just announced

01:17:44 ◼   ► that they're extending Stage Manager down the line

01:17:47 ◼   ► to I think A12 based devices, and this has an A14

01:17:50 ◼   ► but doesn't get stage manager, but whatever.

01:17:52 ◼   ► iPad Air, M1, stage manager.

01:17:53 ◼   ► Better system on a chip and stage manager.

01:17:56 ◼   ► - A12X and Z get it, but the base A12 does not.

01:17:59 ◼   ► - Right, okay.

01:18:00 ◼   ► The iPad Air obviously uses the second gen Apple Pencil,

01:18:04 ◼   ► we'll talk about that in a bit.

01:18:05 ◼   ► The iPad Air is older, so it has Bluetooth 5.0, not 5.2.

01:18:08 ◼   ► The iPad Air has P3 color and a fully laminated display

01:18:11 ◼   ► with 1.8% reflectivity.

01:18:13 ◼   ► Basically the screen's a little bit better on the iPad Air.

01:18:16 ◼   ► I think the cameras are the same.

01:18:18 ◼   ► External display support is quite different.

01:18:20 ◼   ► The iPad Air supports up to a single display

01:18:23 ◼   ► with 6K resolution.

01:18:24 ◼   ► I think this one only does 4K.

01:18:26 ◼   ► What are the stats?

01:18:27 ◼   ► Oh, it's just 4K at like 30 Hertz or something?

01:18:29 ◼   ► I thought I had that, yeah.

01:18:30 ◼   ► Supports one external display at 4K

01:18:32 ◼   ► and 30 Hertz or 1080p at 60.

01:18:34 ◼   ► So the iPad Air does have a leg up on this

01:18:38 ◼   ► in many stat categories.

01:18:39 ◼   ► But if you saw them both sitting on the table,

01:18:41 ◼   ► you'd be forgiven for thinking that this is an iPad Air

01:18:45 ◼   ► unless you use the Apple Pencil with it.

01:18:46 ◼   ► And that I think is, of all the things we listed,

01:18:49 ◼   ► the most baffling thing about this product.

01:18:52 ◼   ► They changed the cheap low-end iPad

01:18:54 ◼   ► to have flat sides in the modern design.

01:18:56 ◼   ► It doesn't have a home button.

01:18:57 ◼   ► In case that doesn't go without saying,

01:18:58 ◼   ► it's got the Touch ID button on the top.

01:19:01 ◼   ► It's got all flat sides and everything,

01:19:03 ◼   ► but it doesn't use the pencil

01:19:05 ◼   ► that sticks to the flat-sided iPads.

01:19:07 ◼   ► It uses the pencil that's completely round,

01:19:09 ◼   ► the first-generation Apple Pencil,

01:19:11 ◼   ► which does not stick to this in any way, shape, or form,

01:19:14 ◼   ► nor does it plug into this in any way, shape or form.

01:19:17 ◼   ► You have to have a little adapter

01:19:19 ◼   ► that allows you to connect to the USB-C port at the bottom.

01:19:22 ◼   ► By the way, this doesn't have lightning, right?

01:19:23 ◼   ► This is USB-C, it's like the iPad Air form factor,

01:19:26 ◼   ► but it does not support the flat Apple Pencil.

01:19:28 ◼   ► So if you buy a new first generation Apple Pencil today,

01:19:31 ◼   ► which they're still selling,

01:19:32 ◼   ► it will come with this little adapter

01:19:34 ◼   ► that lets you plug it into a USB-C iPad.

01:19:37 ◼   ► And why would you need to plug it in?

01:19:38 ◼   ► Like, why do you care?

01:19:39 ◼   ► Can't you just charge it to somebody else?

01:19:40 ◼   ► You plug it in to basically pair it.

01:19:42 ◼   ► Like that's how the Apple pencils that plug in work.

01:19:46 ◼   ► You plug it in to pair it with the thing.

01:19:47 ◼   ► So you need to be able to actually

01:19:49 ◼   ► physically stick it into the iPad.

01:19:50 ◼   ► It's not just a matter of charging it.

01:19:52 ◼   ► It's a matter of pairing it with the iPad

01:19:54 ◼   ► and it also charges it through that.

01:19:55 ◼   ► If you have an old Apple pencil,

01:19:57 ◼   ► first generation Apple pencil,

01:19:58 ◼   ► you can buy the stupid little dongle thingy for $9, right?

01:20:02 ◼   ► This is disappointing.

01:20:05 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:20:07 ◼   ► Like not super disappointing.

01:20:08 ◼   ► What if you already have a first gen Apple pencil?

01:20:10 ◼   ► That's great, I get to reuse my pencil.

01:20:11 ◼   ► I'll buy a $9 dollar adapter and I can keep using my pencil.

01:20:13 ◼   ► But it's flat-sided, man.

01:20:15 ◼   ► Like, you wanna stick a pencil on there, but you can't.

01:20:19 ◼   ► It doesn't work with the Apple Pencil 2.

01:20:21 ◼   ► It's not that, and this is one of the questions

01:20:23 ◼   ► some people were asking, can I use an Apple Pencil 2

01:20:27 ◼   ► with it, like is there any crossover between a device

01:20:29 ◼   ► that's supposed to work with Apple Pencil 1

01:20:30 ◼   ► and Apple Pencil 2, and as far as I know, no.

01:20:33 ◼   ► There's not, like, they use a different way of,

01:20:36 ◼   ► like, you can't, right?

01:20:38 ◼   ► So if you have an Apple Pencil 2,

01:20:40 ◼   ► it's useless with this device.

01:20:41 ◼   ► It won't stick to the sides.

01:20:43 ◼   ► You can't pair it with it

01:20:44 ◼   ► and you can't draw on the screen with it.

01:20:46 ◼   ► Only the first generation round Apple Pencil,

01:20:48 ◼   ► which again, this is the thing that Steve Jobs used to do

01:20:51 ◼   ► because he had a bee in his butt about this.

01:20:54 ◼   ► When the new better thing comes out,

01:20:56 ◼   ► wipe the table clean of all that old junk

01:20:57 ◼   ► 'cause why would you ever want the old junk?

01:20:59 ◼   ► Let's do the new.

01:21:00 ◼   ► And that is not how Apple has operated since he's been gone.

01:21:04 ◼   ► For better or for worse.

01:21:05 ◼   ► Very often for better in terms of having cheaper products,

01:21:07 ◼   ► it's, you know, stay in the lineup longer

01:21:09 ◼   ► so people can buy them, right?

01:21:11 ◼   ► But for worse, with this stupid first generation

01:21:13 ◼   ► Apple Pencil, which is not a bad product,

01:21:16 ◼   ► but Apple did Apple Pencil second generation,

01:21:19 ◼   ► everyone agrees, oh yeah, that's much better.

01:21:21 ◼   ► You fixed all the problems with the first one.

01:21:23 ◼   ► Like, get rid of the first generation Apple Pencil,

01:21:25 ◼   ► stop making it, and more importantly,

01:21:27 ◼   ► stop making new products that require that pencil,

01:21:30 ◼   ► because the second generation one is just plain better.

01:21:33 ◼   ► It's better that it magnetically attaches to the side.

01:21:36 ◼   ► It's better that it doesn't roll off the table.

01:21:37 ◼   ► It's better that there's no little cap

01:21:40 ◼   ► that you're inevitably gonna lose.

01:21:41 ◼   ► It's better that you don't stick it

01:21:42 ◼   ► into the side of the thing to pair it

01:21:44 ◼   ► so it's precariously sticking out the end

01:21:45 ◼   ► and just waiting for someone to snap it off.

01:21:47 ◼   ► Apple Pencil 2 is better.

01:21:49 ◼   ► Get rid of Apple Pencil,

01:21:50 ◼   ► this is like the Watch Series 3 all over again.

01:21:53 ◼   ► We've moved on, the world has moved on.

01:21:55 ◼   ► You yourself made a better pencil product.

01:21:57 ◼   ► Just, ugh, so frustrating.

01:21:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, and just to point out,

01:22:01 ◼   ► the Apple Pencil 2 came out four years ago.

01:22:04 ◼   ► This is not like a cutting edge thing.

01:22:07 ◼   ► that's pretty old in computer terms.

01:22:09 ◼   ► It's a four year old change and it was badly needed

01:22:13 ◼   ► for all the reasons you mentioned.

01:22:15 ◼   ► I mean, when I saw that picture on Twitter,

01:22:18 ◼   ► there were two in the show notes,

01:22:20 ◼   ► that showed the old teenage boy charging method

01:22:23 ◼   ► and then the new cable plus dongle.

01:22:26 ◼   ► I thought, I'm like, there's no way this is true.

01:22:28 ◼   ► I had to verify, surely this can't be real, right?

01:22:30 ◼   ► And no, it's real.

01:22:31 ◼   ► That is how, basically, what they're basically saying is,

01:22:37 ◼   ► or what I will say is if you want to use an Apple Pencil,

01:22:40 ◼   ► just don't get this model of iPad, just don't.

01:22:42 ◼   ► Like it is not, that hassle is not worth it.

01:22:47 ◼   ► Or if you insist on it, get the Logitech Crayon instead,

01:22:52 ◼   ► which is, this is a thing,

01:22:53 ◼   ► not a lot of people know about this.

01:22:55 ◼   ► Logitech has been selling a pencil-like stylus

01:22:59 ◼   ► called the Logitech Crayon for a number of years now

01:23:02 ◼   ► through Apple, like it's with their cooperation.

01:23:04 ◼   ► It works basically the same way as a pencil.

01:23:07 ◼   ► It lacks some of the power usury things.

01:23:09 ◼   ► I believe it doesn't have pressure sensitivity,

01:23:11 ◼   ► but if you're just using it for drawing and stuff

01:23:14 ◼   ► where you don't really need pressure sensitivity,

01:23:16 ◼   ► it's great.

01:23:17 ◼   ► It is a little more friendly in certain ways.

01:23:20 ◼   ► It has just a charging hole on it.

01:23:22 ◼   ► There's now a USB-C one.

01:23:23 ◼   ► I believe the new Logic Crayon works with both

01:23:27 ◼   ► old style and new style iPads, I believe,

01:23:31 ◼   ► and it is cheaper also.

01:23:33 ◼   ► So if you don't need the pressure or the tilt,

01:23:36 ◼   ► some of that advanced drawing stuff, that's an option.

01:23:38 ◼   ► I bought one a while ago, it was pretty good.

01:23:41 ◼   ► Oh, it has an off switch too, which is nice sometimes.

01:23:45 ◼   ► So anyway, that's an option

01:23:47 ◼   ► that people don't often know exists.

01:23:49 ◼   ► But going back to, this product,

01:23:53 ◼   ► this is a very strange product to me.

01:23:56 ◼   ► The rumors had been for a while that Apple was going

01:23:59 ◼   ► to do exactly what they did today,

01:24:00 ◼   ► which is a new iPad Pro and a new low-end iPad

01:24:05 ◼   ► that used USB-C.

01:24:06 ◼   ► And while we got both of those things,

01:24:10 ◼   ► I think there are so many little asterisks on them

01:24:13 ◼   ► that no one was expecting.

01:24:15 ◼   ► And by the way, I don't think anybody had the Apple TV

01:24:17 ◼   ► on their Bingo card, we'll get to that later.

01:24:18 ◼   ► But this is such a weird product.

01:24:21 ◼   ► We'll start with this,