503: Draw Your Own Slice of Pizza


00:00:00   I am back.

00:00:02   - Where were you?

00:00:03   - I was using HomePod minis.

00:00:06   - Okay.

00:00:08   - And I am back.

00:00:09   - On big boys?

00:00:10   - As long as they last.

00:00:12   - Oh my gosh.

00:00:13   - With big HomePods.

00:00:14   - It was like the cheese graters.

00:00:15   - Oh my goodness, how did this happen?

00:00:17   - So last time I went to Westchester,

00:00:20   there they were two perfectly good full-size HomePods

00:00:24   being used in a kitchen by nobody.

00:00:26   - Poor house has just been gutted.

00:00:28   So, you know, I'm like, you know,

00:00:31   these are just sitting here, rotting away

00:00:33   with whatever electrical flaw is what eventually kills them,

00:00:36   that capacitor or whatever everybody says is bad

00:00:39   or wrong or whatever.

00:00:40   No one's using them.

00:00:41   And I'm sure they're gonna get replaced at some point

00:00:43   in the next decade by Apple, but until that happens,

00:00:46   let me take them back.

00:00:48   So I brought them and I have been using them

00:00:50   and they are exactly as glorious and annoying

00:00:55   as they always were and I'm so, I'm so happy

00:00:58   I made the switch because while they are playing music,

00:01:02   which you can eventually make them do most of the time,

00:01:05   eventually, they do sound incredible.

00:01:10   (laughs)

00:01:11   - Can you tell me something,

00:01:12   and I need you to really and truly be honest,

00:01:14   are they white or are they black?

00:01:15   - They're white, they happen to be white.

00:01:17   - So here's the thing, I'm so glad you answered

00:01:19   that question, I feel like Jack Ryan in "Hunford October"

00:01:22   about a crazy Ivan, we should do that as a movie thing,

00:01:24   by the way. Anyway, I feel like your white home pods are my white BMW. Hear me out. When

00:01:31   my white BMW was working, it was amazing. It was only working for about a week every

00:01:38   month, but for that one week, oh, it was good. It was real good for that one week. Your white

00:01:44   home pods, which by the way just happened to you, those when they're working, I guess

00:01:48   they're real good, aren't they?

00:01:50   No, and by the way, I chose the white because I know this is unpopular for a nerd like me

00:01:57   to say that the black option is not the best option on something, but white home pods look

00:02:01   better than black home pods.

00:02:02   They're not really white, they're gray, I mean, come on.

00:02:05   They're pretty close to, I mean, you know, the outside is made of something that kind

00:02:10   of resembles cloth, so you can't get it like super super white.

00:02:13   They're not white.

00:02:14   They're not even starlight, they're light gray.

00:02:15   Well, and the black is definitely dark gray.

00:02:18   - Yeah, the black is very dark gray.

00:02:20   - But yeah, anyway, so the white looks better.

00:02:22   And so I chose them and I stand by that.

00:02:24   I'm unashamed in choosing the white HomePods.

00:02:28   I also actually, so my phone is temporarily white again,

00:02:31   but I'll tell you what, some quick follow up

00:02:33   on last week's case discussion.

00:02:36   I briefly said last week I had tried the Peak Design

00:02:39   and the Pataka, and the Pataka, I liked the way it felt,

00:02:42   but I hated the way it looked.

00:02:44   The Peak Design was a little bit bulky

00:02:47   and I didn't like how little relative tackiness

00:02:50   that the back kind of cloth-like surface had.

00:02:53   Well, I have been using the Peak Design case all week

00:02:58   because I just like it.

00:03:00   It makes relatively little sense.

00:03:04   I can't really justify it over the other cases

00:03:07   in any kind of subjective, or objective, I guess,

00:03:11   objective means. (laughs)

00:03:13   It is more expensive than most of them.

00:03:15   It is thicker and it's less grippy.

00:03:18   However, it feels the nicest and it looks the nicest.

00:03:23   Therefore, I've been sticking with it and I kinda like it.

00:03:26   I kinda like the weird little square on the back.

00:03:28   It's kinda like a reverse popsocket.

00:03:30   Instead of having something that sticks out,

00:03:32   it's like a hole that you can put your finger

00:03:34   on the inside of the hole to lift it out of your pocket

00:03:36   or whatever, it's nice.

00:03:38   I even, I just now, or just yesterday,

00:03:40   I just ordered a couple of their mounts that go on the back.

00:03:43   Just see what I can do with that.

00:03:43   - Oh, here we go.

00:03:45   - You're gonna put it on your motorcycle?

00:03:46   - Yeah, yeah.

00:03:48   First I have to buy a motorcycle just for this case.

00:03:50   I like the case so much, I bought a motorcycle

00:03:51   and then I bought the mount,

00:03:53   and the motorcycle happens to be white,

00:03:54   and I bought the mount that loops around that way.

00:03:57   And I'm gonna start becoming a,

00:03:59   what are those people who make GoPro action videos

00:04:03   on their vehicles?

00:04:04   What are those, do we have a name for those?

00:04:06   Like cloggers or something?

00:04:08   - Oh my gosh, yes, let's go with cloggers.

00:04:10   That's perfect.

00:04:11   - So I'm gonna become a clogger.

00:04:14   And it's all thanks to this case.

00:04:15   - I tried that Marco, not as easy as you think.

00:04:18   (laughing)

00:04:19   - Yeah, here we go.

00:04:21   So anyway, turns out that's the case

00:04:23   I'm going with for a while.

00:04:24   - Yeah, update on my creaky clear case.

00:04:26   I've got a, this is the first clear case

00:04:28   I've used for any pre-show amount of time.

00:04:30   I've got quite a collection of crumbs and dust collecting.

00:04:34   Visible all around, if you just circle all around

00:04:38   like the top edge of the thing, it is so gross.

00:04:42   I cannot wait to get this thing off.

00:04:43   One of my cases shipped, I got a shipping notification.

00:04:45   I think possibly it'll be here by next week's show,

00:04:49   but I'll keep you updated.

00:04:49   I cannot wait to get this thing off my phone.

00:04:52   - You know, an alternative is to just not care

00:04:55   about having a covered bottom.

00:04:56   And then there's zillions of cases you can try.

00:04:58   - There's plenty of options too.

00:05:00   I mean, I picked two of them because they were expensive.

00:05:02   There's more than two options I could have picked.

00:05:04   I figure I'll like one of these two,

00:05:05   but I'll let you know.

00:05:06   - You can try the Peak Design.

00:05:08   It comes in grayish black and a weirdly light green color,

00:05:12   And that's it.

00:05:13   - Yeah, I mean, obviously if I needed a secure mount

00:05:16   or something, I would probably pick that,

00:05:17   but the little square that you mentioned,

00:05:19   like, oh, I can use it to pull my phone out of my pocket

00:05:21   or whatever, I just, I don't want that to be there.

00:05:23   I feel like my fingers would find it

00:05:25   and it would just be annoying.

00:05:26   - You're right, that is a thing.

00:05:28   And the little square, the very first day I used this case,

00:05:31   I thought it felt a little sharp.

00:05:32   Now it doesn't feel sharp to me anymore.

00:05:33   Maybe it just sanded down my fingers, I don't know.

00:05:35   But what I like about the Peak Design,

00:05:37   in addition to the fact that it looks nicest

00:05:39   feels nicest, the buttons also feel nicest, the mute switch toggles a little deep, like

00:05:45   the whole, the little recession to get to the mute switch is a little bit deep, but

00:05:48   the side buttons, you know, all the buttons are covered, the side buttons feel great in

00:05:53   this case, better than most cases, and overall, this case is the only, it's the only iPhone

00:05:58   case I have ever used from anybody except Apple where it felt like they went for the

00:06:03   the nice materials instead of the cheap materials.

00:06:06   And it is by far the nicest case I've ever seen,

00:06:10   felt, or used that was not made of leather.

00:06:13   So for whatever that's worth,

00:06:15   if you either wanna go leather-free

00:06:16   or if you just want something nice, it's really nice.

00:06:20   - All right, let's do some follow-up.

00:06:24   What is going on with shared photo libraries

00:06:27   and what is shared with them, Jon?

00:06:28   - Last week I said some things

00:06:31   about what wasn't shared in photos

00:06:32   and I was wrong about a few of them.

00:06:35   I said that keywords, favorites, and location stuff

00:06:37   are not shared.

00:06:38   They are shared.

00:06:39   So those are attributes of the individual photos.

00:06:42   So keywords, and I tested this with my little thing.

00:06:44   If you put a keyword on a photo,

00:06:45   it gets shared with the other person.

00:06:46   If you favorite it, it shows up.

00:06:48   Then we're talking about photos

00:06:49   that are in the shared library.

00:06:51   You can do that stuff to them.

00:06:52   You can assign keywords, you can set their favorite status,

00:06:54   you can add location information, and everybody sees that.

00:06:57   All the other stuff I talked about,

00:07:00   the non-photo items remain unshared.

00:07:02   So you don't get albums, you don't get smart albums,

00:07:04   you don't get slideshows, you don't get book projects,

00:07:06   all that stuff.

00:07:07   And also someone asked about this

00:07:09   when I was having a discussion about it on Twitter.

00:07:12   What about duplicates?

00:07:13   What if two people have the same photo,

00:07:17   like maybe like a person airdropped the same identical photo

00:07:20   to two different people at two different times,

00:07:22   and they both add it to the shared library, what happens?

00:07:26   The answer, and according to my experimentation

00:07:28   using the Mac version of photos only

00:07:30   and two different accounts that have the exact same file.

00:07:33   I imported the file into both of their private libraries

00:07:36   and they're separate at that point.

00:07:37   And then I had both of them add that photo

00:07:40   to the shared library and you end up with two copies

00:07:43   of that photo in the shared library.

00:07:44   Just two completely identical copies of the photo

00:07:46   in the shared library.

00:07:47   I didn't edit them, so it's not like one of them was edited

00:07:49   and one of them wasn't.

00:07:50   I just imported into the individual things.

00:07:51   Then I had one person add it to the shared library

00:07:53   and then had the second person add it to the shared library.

00:07:56   Still in beta, maybe they'll change that.

00:07:58   And interestingly, I was like, okay, well,

00:07:59   maybe they do that for safety or like just to make sure

00:08:02   photos don't squish other photos with edits or whatever.

00:08:04   But isn't there a dedupe feature

00:08:06   that they've been talking about in iOS 16 and stuff?

00:08:09   They will find your duplicates for you,

00:08:11   like built into the iOS 16 photos thing?

00:08:13   - I believe so.

00:08:14   - If that exists in Mac photos, I could not find it.

00:08:17   So it's kind of weird if that ends up being

00:08:19   an iOS only feature.

00:08:21   There are obviously there are tons and tons of ways

00:08:23   to dedupe photos in your photo library

00:08:25   with Mac applications.

00:08:26   Lots of third party applications

00:08:27   been doing that for years, but it's kind of weird that if they're bringing that as a first

00:08:30   party feature to the Photos app on the phone that they don't also bring it to the Mac.

00:08:34   So I hope that appears in a future beta or something.

00:08:39   We are sponsored this week by Collide.

00:08:41   IT admins often feel like they have to choose between their commitment to cybersecurity

00:08:45   and their duty to protect their employees' privacy.

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00:08:51   you also don't want to turn your workplace into 1984.

00:08:55   Personal MDMs give the IT team complete access and control over company devices to a fault

00:09:00   because since employees are inevitably going to use their work laptops for some personal

00:09:04   activities, those tools can saddle you with surveillance capabilities over personal stuff

00:09:08   you never wanted access to like photos or browser history.

00:09:12   Before you know it, your end users are complaining about all the security agents slowing down

00:09:16   their laptops, developers are frustrated by the lack of autonomy, and people start secretly

00:09:20   working on their personal devices just to get things done.

00:09:24   In that case, everyone loses, so it's easy to fall into these traps of top-down security,

00:09:29   but this is not the only option.

00:09:32   Collide is an endpoint security solution built around honest security.

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00:10:25   That's collide, K-O-L-I-D-E, collide.com/ATP.

00:10:30   Thank you so much to Collide for sponsoring our show.

00:10:34   - All right, the European Union has mandated

00:10:42   that all phones in somewhere between one and 17,000 years

00:10:47   will have USB-C on them, as was foretold.

00:10:52   - Yeah, well, do we know?

00:10:54   I mean, the Europeologists here will tell us,

00:10:57   like, well, this actually, they didn't really mandate it yet.

00:11:00   Now it has to go to this committee,

00:11:02   then it has to go to this board, then it has to--

00:11:03   - I bet there's something in the notes

00:11:05   that has the answers to those questions.

00:11:06   - Let me read from the notes.

00:11:08   (laughing)

00:11:10   I didn't know if we were going to make

00:11:11   any initial opening remarks, I guess not.

00:11:13   So here we go.

00:11:14   - That's why you shouldn't have editorialized

00:11:15   based on the title item.

00:11:18   Because notice what the title item says.

00:11:19   Would you like to read the title item as written?

00:11:22   - EU USB-C mandate passes vote.

00:11:24   - Passes vote.

00:11:25   It does not, so it's mandate as a noun, right?

00:11:28   The USB-C mandate, what happened to it?

00:11:30   Did it go into effect?

00:11:32   Is it real?

00:11:32   Is it whatever?

00:11:33   No, but it passed the vote.

00:11:34   What the hell does passes the vote mean?

00:11:35   And here we get the text.

00:11:37   - I mean, look, hey, hands up, who wants us to pass?

00:11:39   Three of us, one, two, good.

00:11:40   Okay, it just passed a vote.

00:11:41   Like, that doesn't mean anything.

00:11:43   - Oh, it means something.

00:11:44   Anyway, go on.

00:11:45   On October 4th, the European Parliament voted overwhelmingly in favor of new legislation

00:11:49   that would eventually require all mobile phones sold in the EU to use a USB-C port for wired

00:11:55   charging.

00:11:56   The EU's new rules are yet to be formally approved.

00:11:59   Although they've been given the thumbs up by the bloc's parliament, the common charger

00:12:02   legislation still needs to be signed off by the Council of the EU and published in the

00:12:07   EU official journal.

00:12:09   It would then enter into force 20 days later.

00:12:11   So clear.

00:12:12   But even once that happens, just you wait.

00:12:16   But even once that happens, companies like Apple will still effectively have a two-year

00:12:20   grace period that's designed to ease the transition to a USB-C future.

00:12:23   This means the rules are likely to come into force by the end of 2024.

00:12:28   Devices already on the market won't need to be withdrawn, so if Apple launches a Lightning

00:12:32   Port iPhone ahead of the deadline, it can keep selling the phone.

00:12:36   Or what if they just kill the ports entirely?

00:12:38   They already did one, why not take the other?

00:12:40   - Yeah, so 2024 is a ways out if things go according

00:12:44   to what they seem like they're gonna go to.

00:12:46   That's plenty of time for Apple to transition to USB-C,

00:12:49   quote unquote, on its own.

00:12:51   You know what I mean?

00:12:52   - I love that it says companies like Apple too.

00:12:54   Like this is all about Apple.

00:12:55   Like what other companies are left?

00:12:57   - There's no company, as Tim Cook will tell you,

00:12:59   there are no other companies like Apple.

00:13:01   Only Apple would be stubborn enough

00:13:02   to keep lightning for this long.

00:13:04   - Nice.

00:13:05   I don't know how I feel about this.

00:13:07   So I'm gonna steal from a former guest,

00:13:10   Christina Warren who tweeted about this and I agree with her. I would like USBC on my

00:13:15   phone for several reasons which we can investigate if we care, but I would like USBC on my phone.

00:13:20   I don't love that it will arrive there if at all because of a government mandate rather

00:13:26   than either market forces or I don't know. I feel very like, "Oh, free market this. No

00:13:32   government." And that's not how I feel about most things, but in this particular case,

00:13:36   I don't love how we're ending up on a position

00:13:39   that I think I'm going to love.

00:13:40   - I mean, it's gonna end up there not

00:13:42   because of this mandate,

00:13:43   because if the 2024 date ends up being

00:13:45   anything close to correct,

00:13:46   Apple essentially has painted itself into a corner

00:13:50   to transition regardless of this law,

00:13:52   because they keep making phones

00:13:53   that can create these massive files,

00:13:56   like shooting the high resolution video

00:13:59   with high frame rate,

00:14:01   and trying to get them off a phone is a nightmare.

00:14:03   And so they either have to upgrade Lightning

00:14:05   to be much, much faster, which would be a big hassle,

00:14:08   I'm not even sure if it's possible,

00:14:09   or they have to go to USB-C.

00:14:10   So there is a technical motivator

00:14:12   that's going to make Apple make some kind of change,

00:14:15   whether it's to USB-C or something else,

00:14:17   just because it's plain ridiculous

00:14:19   how long it would take to get video off of a phone

00:14:22   that you can record at the highest quality.

00:14:25   It just takes too long, it's too slow.

00:14:27   So that's my guess about why Apple will be transitioning.

00:14:32   I'm sure this mandate doesn't hurt the schedule, right?

00:14:36   It can only help it,

00:14:37   but given how long these things take effect

00:14:40   and given how it's been, not weakened,

00:14:41   but like they've been allowing people to ease the transition,

00:14:44   give them a long time to do it,

00:14:46   not having to withdraw existing products,

00:14:47   which really helps them.

00:14:48   Like Apple could release it,

00:14:49   depending on the timing within 2024,

00:14:52   they could release their last lightning phone

00:14:54   to be the 2024 phone, right?

00:14:57   And not have to worry about it until a 2025 phone, right?

00:15:00   That's how much time they have to do this,

00:15:01   but I think they'll probably change before then.

00:15:04   David Schwab had some other ideas

00:15:06   about things Apple could do to skirt this.

00:15:07   I think these are less likely than the straightforward thing

00:15:10   which is they just go to USB-C, but here they are.

00:15:12   He says, "The EU law contains an exception for devices

00:15:14   "that only use wireless charging.

00:15:16   "Assuming Apple really doesn't want to switch the out front

00:15:17   "from Lightning to USB-C, do you think they might

00:15:19   "just replace the Lightning cable with MagSafe charger

00:15:21   "and the EU implement one of these as a legal workaround?"

00:15:24   These are probably, not increasingly silly,

00:15:27   but some of them are silly.

00:15:28   "Put a service only sticker or plug over the Lightning port?"

00:15:31   I don't see that happening.

00:15:33   It's kind of like the little diagnostic part on the watch.

00:15:35   Disable charging through the lighting port and software.

00:15:39   Right, you could still have the lighting port and not USB-C

00:15:41   as long as it doesn't charge through it.

00:15:43   Yeah, only for EU phones, right?

00:15:45   Ship an EU phone without a lighting port

00:15:46   just like the US phone doesn't have a SIM tray.

00:15:49   I guess they put a plastic spacer in there.

00:15:52   And he says, I think EU regulators may have underestimated

00:15:55   how much Apple hates being forced to modify their designs

00:15:57   to satisfy regional laws.

00:15:58   But I really don't think that's what's

00:15:59   going to force Apple to do it.

00:16:01   the march of progress of storage size and the size of video files and for that matter photo files.

00:16:08   Say you're shooting everything with 48 megapixel RAWs, each of those photos is 80 megabytes and

00:16:13   you got a one terabyte iPhone, try transferring that at lightning speeds, at the USB 2.0 speeds

00:16:18   or whatever it is. It's a little bit silly. Their "pro" phones need to be able to transfer

00:16:22   data faster and at this point trying to make a new version of lightning that is faster seems very

00:16:28   silly in light of how much USB-C is spread throughout the rest of Apple's lines. You

00:16:33   know, they did it on the iPad. They're either going to do it on the phone or they're going

00:16:37   to get rid of ports altogether, but I don't see them. Like, it's not the EU that's forcing

00:16:42   them to put out a non-lighting phone in 2025. It's just sanity.

00:16:47   I want them to do it not because a government is forcing them to, but because it's the right

00:16:53   thing to do. And I think they, you know, the rumors have been fairly consistent that starting

00:17:00   with next year's iPhones that we are apparently going to USB-C and that's been consistent

00:17:05   now for a number of years. So I kind of put some weight behind it. And I think, you know,

00:17:11   Apple must have decided a couple years ago, like, you know, to make this change and changing

00:17:16   over the iPhone in any kind of major component change is not a small deal. They have to worry

00:17:22   about like, first of all, can we even get or create

00:17:25   enough USB-C connectors to keep up with the iPhone's volume?

00:17:30   Like that's actually a real concern that, you know,

00:17:33   something that's as high volume and as,

00:17:38   I guess, high stakes as the iPhone is.

00:17:41   'Cause every single thing that an iPhone has or has to do

00:17:45   has to be nearly 100% perfect, nearly 100% of the time,

00:17:49   because they just sell so many of them,

00:17:52   and it's so important to the company,

00:17:53   that if they have a part that has like a .001% failure rate,

00:17:58   that's too high, they can't have that,

00:18:00   'cause that could cause a scandal

00:18:01   that could have a big problem for the iPhone that year.

00:18:04   So they have to be so careful,

00:18:06   and they have to make sure they can create the volume,

00:18:09   and have the high yields, and have the good reliability

00:18:11   of all these different parts.

00:18:12   You know, when you look at the iPhone as a product,

00:18:17   It's really amazing when you compare it to,

00:18:20   not only anything else that Apple makes,

00:18:22   but anything else that anybody makes.

00:18:24   It's really amazing how rarely anything goes wrong with them.

00:18:29   Like how, like manufacturing defect wise,

00:18:31   like how often have you opened up a new iPhone

00:18:34   and something's been broken and you've had to exchange it.

00:18:36   It's almost unheard of, like it happens so rarely

00:18:39   compared to the number of them that they sell.

00:18:42   And so, again, they have to be super cautious.

00:18:44   So I'm sure there were reasons like that

00:18:46   that led them to take this long to get here.

00:18:50   But I do think it looks like things are lining up

00:18:53   that they will be getting here.

00:18:54   And I think part of the reason, as John said,

00:18:57   the transfer rates of having these giant video captures,

00:19:00   they're literally, they're marketing the Pro phones

00:19:02   and they're making these software features

00:19:04   and hardware features to optimize for things like ProRes

00:19:08   and raw photos and everything that generate

00:19:10   these huge files that are comically slow

00:19:12   to get off the phone.

00:19:14   That is one side of this.

00:19:16   But the reality is, and Apple knows this,

00:19:18   most people with most iPhones will never do those things.

00:19:21   And so that doesn't necessarily need to be the reason.

00:19:25   That's a reason.

00:19:27   But I think the reason, the much bigger reason,

00:19:30   is just that it's a pain in the butt

00:19:32   to have two different phone chargers out there.

00:19:35   And when Apple went with Lightning,

00:19:38   the Android world was not as unified as it is now.

00:19:41   Now, everything is USB-C,

00:19:44   and it has been for a number of years now.

00:19:46   And it's spreading to all sorts of other devices

00:19:49   that aren't even phones.

00:19:50   The laptops now all charge via USB-C,

00:19:52   they can at least, they don't have to but they can.

00:19:54   And then you look at every, all hardware in the world,

00:19:58   flashlights charge via USB-C.

00:20:01   I saw, I got an ad on Instagram for a power drill

00:20:04   that charges via USB-C. (laughs)

00:20:07   Which by the way, well targeted ad.

00:20:09   Everything is USB-C now.

00:20:13   And the very few things that aren't are every iPhone

00:20:18   and like our AirPods cases or whatever.

00:20:20   It's like there's not much else left.

00:20:22   Oh, and the stupid Apple Watch.

00:20:23   - Don't forget my keyboard.

00:20:24   - Yeah, keyboards, yeah, my trackpad.

00:20:26   But like-- - My stupid keyboard.

00:20:28   - The Apple battery case that isn't a case.

00:20:30   - Yeah. - Whatever it's called.

00:20:31   - But yeah, but you look at the market

00:20:32   and like everything else is USB-C now.

00:20:35   It's a very, very different scenario now

00:20:39   than it was when Lightning was introduced.

00:20:41   You know, when they had to decide to go from the dot connector to Lightning, again, that

00:20:45   was a very different world.

00:20:47   There wasn't this consensus.

00:20:48   There wasn't this one amazing universal standard.

00:20:51   There was a bunch of miscellaneous crap and mostly micro-USB, which sucked.

00:20:56   And this is a totally different ballgame now.

00:20:57   It's a different time with different needs.

00:21:00   And the right thing to do now, whether the EU gets around to mandating it for them or

00:21:05   not, is to use USB-C for everything.

00:21:08   So rumors again suggest we're going there

00:21:10   and I hope they're right because it is such a pain

00:21:13   in the butt to have a family of mixed devices

00:21:17   of just like, you know what, we need USB-C

00:21:19   for pretty much everything except our iPhones.

00:21:22   That's so annoying.

00:21:23   Well and our Apple watches again, whole separate thing there

00:21:26   but the world would be better off

00:21:29   if they made the iPhone USB-C

00:21:31   and I hope that's the reason they're doing it

00:21:33   and not because of government pressure

00:21:36   or not because of only pros needing it.

00:21:39   No, everyone needs it.

00:21:40   It'll benefit everyone.

00:21:42   - Speaking of not having enough parts and stuff,

00:21:44   I seem to recall a story back when lightning first came out

00:21:46   that the limiting factor on the phones

00:21:48   they could manufacture was the ability

00:21:50   to get that little lightning connectory thing

00:21:53   because obviously Apple was the only company

00:21:54   in the entire world that needed that thing made

00:21:56   and they needed a lot of them

00:21:57   and they needed a lot of them fast

00:21:58   and they needed to be up to Apple standards of quality

00:22:01   and everything and that was a problem.

00:22:03   But at this point, getting quality USB-C connectors

00:22:07   should not be a problem for Apple.

00:22:09   - One would hope not.

00:22:10   But no, I mean, I haven't been traveling too much,

00:22:12   but I've been traveling more than zero,

00:22:13   which is more than I can say for the last couple of years.

00:22:15   And having everything USB-C is extremely convenient.

00:22:19   And yes, I did spend an absolutely hilarious amount of money

00:22:22   on my travel mag safe situation,

00:22:26   but it would still be nice to know

00:22:28   that if I needed to plug in,

00:22:30   all I need is the cable that I can use for my laptop

00:22:32   the switch or for any number of other things and that I don't need a bespoke cable just

00:22:37   for my iPhone. And yeah, I don't begrudge Apple for having gone lightning. I do kind

00:22:42   of begrudge them for not having gone to USBC sometime in the last year or two. And I think

00:22:46   that, you know, it would have been better a year or two ago. The next best time is as

00:22:50   soon as possible. And, and, and I just, the other day I had recorded, the kids were doing

00:22:55   like a little play for the two of us, for Aaron and me, and I recorded it and I recorded

00:22:59   it as like one 10 minute, you know, I don't remember what my settings on my phone are,

00:23:03   but I think it was a one 10 minute 60 frames per second 4k video. And it's something like

00:23:07   three gigs. I don't even remember how big it is, but it's massive. Right. And yeah,

00:23:11   getting that, uh, oh, I'm sorry, it's actually nine gigs, nine gigs. Getting that off of

00:23:17   my phone via cable was effectively impossible. Like, yes, it is. It is literally possible,

00:23:23   but it was effectively impossible. And so what I ended up doing was air dropping, which

00:23:28   took a couple of tries and was not exactly reliable, but I eventually got it from my

00:23:32   phone to my computer, and I'm going to eventually, you know, put it in Final Cut Pro and do things

00:23:37   with it, but it is not fun to get, you know, more than a minute of 4K 60 frames video off

00:23:45   of your phone using a lightning cable. It's just, I know you guys said this a minute ago,

00:23:48   but it's so true. And this is something that I ran into just in the last three days. I

00:23:54   cannot wait for USB-C to be a thing.

00:23:57   That being said, I wouldn't be entirely surprised

00:24:02   if Apple went no ports at all,

00:24:05   or perhaps no ports on non-pro phones

00:24:08   and ports on a pro phone.

00:24:10   And the reason I say that is,

00:24:11   what do they have to care about?

00:24:12   They have to care about developers,

00:24:13   who they don't really care about,

00:24:15   or people who have wired CarPlay.

00:24:17   And there are solutions, like I use,

00:24:19   they're not great, but they work,

00:24:21   to change wired CarPlay into wireless CarPlay.

00:24:23   So do either of you guys see them going to a completely wireless world?

00:24:28   There was that, uh, the rumor that like the mag safe puck,

00:24:31   like imagine a mag safe puck as they exist now,

00:24:33   but also with like a thing in the middle of it that lets data be transferred and

00:24:37   that would be their solution essentially like mag safe.

00:24:39   I don't know what number they're on mag safe two, three.

00:24:41   I thought I guess the numbers are on the laptops and I believe they reset the

00:24:44   timeline on that one. Yeah, it's just, it's, yeah. Yeah. As we said,

00:24:47   let previous episode, not mag safe, but mag safe. Anyway. Um, that was a,

00:24:51   They had patents filings on that and everything,

00:24:53   but it's hard to tell whether that's just a thing

00:24:55   they were considering for the MagSafe puck

00:24:57   and just didn't do, or if it's a thing for the future.

00:24:59   It doesn't really solve the carplay problem at all.

00:25:02   One of the problems it does solve is Apple's ability

00:25:04   to charge peripheral manufacturers money to sell things

00:25:08   that's sort of made for iPhone, whatever.

00:25:11   Does anybody make a MagSafe puck besides Apple?

00:25:15   Like the actual puck?

00:25:16   - Yeah, well, sort of.

00:25:18   My travel thing that I keep talking about

00:25:20   over and over again, there's three pieces.

00:25:23   There's a Qi charger that's about the shape

00:25:27   of an AirPods case, there's an Apple Watch charger,

00:25:30   and then there's a honest-to-goodness MagSafe,

00:25:32   not a puck, but there's a MagSafe mat on,

00:25:36   I think it's the rightmost of the three different parts

00:25:39   of this charger.

00:25:39   So yeah, it is full-on honest-to-goodness MagSafe,

00:25:42   but it is not a first-party MagSafe puck,

00:25:46   as far as I'm aware.

00:25:47   - Well, and to be clear, I'm sure they make

00:25:50   a decent amount of money with the licensing of everything.

00:25:53   But have you ever seen anybody in the real world

00:25:57   using officially licensed MFI stuff

00:25:59   that didn't come with their phone?

00:26:01   Everyone just buys the knockoff crap

00:26:02   from the drugstore on Amazon.

00:26:04   And I doubt they're getting any money from that.

00:26:06   So I wonder if we might be overestimating the value of that.

00:26:10   - I think there's a lot of it in there.

00:26:12   I think all of the manufacturers that you see selling stuff

00:26:16   on Apple Store, for example Belkin and stuff,

00:26:18   they're a venue manufacturer.

00:26:19   They send tons of stuff.

00:26:20   If you just do a random Google for any kind of wire peripheral

00:26:23   thing, the odds of you getting a Belkin match are high.

00:26:26   And I'm assuming everything Belkin does is on the up and up

00:26:29   because, again, they're an Apple store.

00:26:30   So they're probably--

00:26:32   I don't know.

00:26:32   It's someone's job to maximize MFI income.

00:26:36   And that person is not in charge of the whole company.

00:26:38   But that is a factor in weighing this.

00:26:41   And obviously, it's not going to stop them from going to USB-C.

00:26:43   They did it on the iPad.

00:26:45   No more revenue from all those lightning cables

00:26:47   that we were selling to iPad owners.

00:26:49   In the end, they'll do the right thing

00:26:50   from a technical perspective,

00:26:51   but it remains to be seen what Apple thinks

00:26:53   is the right thing on the phone,

00:26:55   because in the same way they removed the headphone port,

00:26:58   although they removed that from the iPad too,

00:26:59   but anyway, they may say, "Oh, on the phone,

00:27:01   "we need every ounce of space we can get.

00:27:03   "It's not like we have room for plastic spacers in there,

00:27:05   "so we gotta get rid of the port

00:27:07   "and everything is going to be magnetic pucks from now on."

00:27:10   I hope they don't do that.

00:27:11   It seems like a much more straightforward

00:27:13   and smarter thing to do to go with USB-C,

00:27:14   and in the end, I think the iPhone,

00:27:17   for all of Apple's sort of punctuated moments of daring

00:27:22   tends to be a conservative product.

00:27:24   And, you know, change happens slowly.

00:27:27   So the iPhone 10 was a big change,

00:27:29   going Retina was a big change,

00:27:31   the big iPhone 6 was a big change,

00:27:33   and going from 30 plane to lightning was a big change,

00:27:36   I think, but you know, but those events happen.

00:27:39   But in general, Apple's not keen to rock the boat

00:27:43   on the idea that a phone is something that's a rectangle

00:27:46   where you plug in a thing at the bottom to charge it.

00:27:48   So right now my money is still on a USB-C port

00:27:52   where the lightning port was.

00:27:54   I don't know, we'll see.

00:27:56   - It is tempting, you know, Apple famously,

00:27:59   frequently overdoes their minimalism,

00:28:01   especially in hardware, and so I see why we would think

00:28:06   that, you know, oh, this is a big risk,

00:28:08   and I think it's a risk that they might do this,

00:28:11   but I think it's a small risk, because ultimately,

00:28:15   Wired is in many ways, of course it's in many ways simpler,

00:28:20   but it's also in many ways better.

00:28:23   Wired charging first of all is way more efficient.

00:28:25   Now we've already seen, I believe there's a feature

00:28:27   in the 16.1 beta that came out yesterday or today,

00:28:30   that there's now an option to set your iPhone to charge

00:28:34   when it has environmentally friendly energy generation

00:28:39   in your area, so if there's a time of day in your area

00:28:44   where they use only solar or wind power or something,

00:28:47   it can have your phone try to only charge during those times.

00:28:50   And that's the kind of feature that,

00:28:52   the reason they do that kind of feature

00:28:53   is that it has a pretty massive environmental impact

00:28:57   when you're talking about the number of iPhones

00:28:59   that are out there.

00:29:00   If you can make them charge a little more efficiently

00:29:03   or using certain resources instead of others,

00:29:06   it's a small power draw, yeah,

00:29:07   but it's like millions and millions and millions

00:29:10   of small power draws.

00:29:12   And so to go to wireless only would make almost everyone

00:29:17   use an inefficient charging method on their iPhone

00:29:22   that loses a good percentage.

00:29:24   I mean, what is the Qi MagSafe efficiency?

00:29:27   It's probably something like 70 or 80%.

00:29:29   - I think that's very optimistic.

00:29:31   - Yeah, exactly.

00:29:32   - I would guess that it's less than 50%, much less.

00:29:35   - Right, and especially if you have a case on your phone,

00:29:38   then you're getting those coils further apart,

00:29:40   and I bet it makes the efficiency worse.

00:29:41   So if they're gonna put all the effort environmentally

00:29:44   to do other good things for like energy conservation

00:29:47   and smart energy usage and everything,

00:29:50   it seems like a step backwards to require

00:29:53   all of a sudden everyone to go Qi or wireless only.

00:29:57   In addition to the fact that I just hope

00:30:00   that this rumor is not true or that this idea

00:30:02   wouldn't happen, I hope because I know

00:30:05   from a developer's point of view,

00:30:06   like the Apple Watch development situation,

00:30:08   not being able to hardwire to it,

00:30:11   is just so inferior to the iPhone

00:30:13   where I can just hardwire in.

00:30:15   So I really hope they don't do that.

00:30:17   - Oh, agreed, agreed.

00:30:18   - But yeah, I think there's lots of reasons for this

00:30:21   why they probably wouldn't do it for any iPhone,

00:30:24   let alone for all iPhones.

00:30:28   - Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

00:30:29   I don't want there to be an all wireless future,

00:30:32   but I wouldn't put it past Apple one way or the other.

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00:32:32   [Music]

00:32:36   So I have a couple of updates with regard to my weird Apple Watch

00:32:39   band return. John, not Syracuse, has a theory that I genuinely wish I could have confirmed or denied,

00:32:46   but all this came in after I had completed my return. John writes, "Here's why I think you

00:32:52   were asked to bring your watch bundle to return the band. The bundled band is not exactly the

00:32:57   same as the retail version, as you can see in pictures that John provided, which really you

00:33:02   You can just use your mind painting to figure this out. It has no barcode and no specifications about its color from the case

00:33:09   I can only tell that it's in my case a sports band on the other hand

00:33:13   The retail version has some more stickers for the model in the barcodes see another picture again

00:33:17   We're not gonna bother with pictures in the show notes partially for John's OPSEC. But anyway, I don't think this is the case

00:33:23   I thought on certainly on the exterior, you know how on the Apple watch

00:33:27   It's like a piece of paper that wraps the watch box in the band box

00:33:32   Well on that it's not a piece of paper like a thin piece of cardboard

00:33:35   Well anyways on that it says what band is within now

00:33:39   Maybe the band wasn't specific, but I could swear it had a picture of the correct band on the outside

00:33:44   I could swear it had like the size on it and so on and so forth

00:33:48   So, I don't know maybe John is right, but I'm skeptical but it's it's a plausible theory now from an anonymous Apple Watch employer

00:33:55   Apple Watch employee from an anonymous Apple employee, they had the following to say with

00:34:00   regard to the genius or retail person that I spoke to. They were wrong. We don't need the watch. All

00:34:06   we need is the serial number of the watch. Here's what actually happens during band swap. Systematically,

00:34:10   regardless of whether your watch is there or not, Apple is returning the whole thing and reselling

00:34:14   it to you with a new band. It's just that they've rejiggered the system to hide most of the exchange

00:34:19   from us, as in the retail employees, and the customer. The steps look like this. One, the specialist

00:34:24   chooses the item swap option on their ISAAC, which is the handheld device they carry.

00:34:28   Two, the system asks for a watch serial number. This can be scanned using the barcode from

00:34:33   the box, or it can be manually entered if the box isn't there. We can also scan the

00:34:38   original receipt. Since every serial number is unique, that number allows us to pull up

00:34:41   the original transaction. Quick aside, I later asked this anonymous genius, "Hey, what if

00:34:46   I had the W1234-5679 online order number?" And they weren't sure, but they said, "Yeah,

00:34:52   I bet that would work. All right, so back to the retail employee. Step three, after we have received,

00:34:57   retrieved, excuse me, the original transaction,

00:34:59   the system asks for us to scan in the new band. Four, if the new band is the same price as the old band, the

00:35:05   transaction is pretty much finished except for the receipt, which is printed or emailed. If the new band is a different price, the customer pays

00:35:11   the difference or receives a refund for the difference depending. Easy peasy, lickety-split. So this is

00:35:17   mostly what happened when I went back with the boxes and so on and so forth,

00:35:21   But the key here is that really all they need is a way to get the serial number and once they got that

00:35:27   Then they're off to the races and that makes sense and kind of stands to reason based on what I saw

00:35:33   But here's an anonymous Apple employee telling us exactly what the truth is

00:35:37   Alright, so let's talk about something that is definitely brand new and definitely hasn't been talked to death over the last two months

00:35:44   Let's talk about AI art

00:35:46   And I feel like we should start right away by saying you should really consider listening to Cortex episode 133,

00:35:54   "The Ethics of AI Art."

00:35:56   That was a real--I really love that show--

00:35:58   but that was a really, really great episode in which a lot of the ins and outs of all this was discussed.

00:36:03   How do we want to approach this? I guess we should maybe kind of do the quick summary of "What do I mean by AI art?"

00:36:10   John or Marco, jump in when you're ready.

00:36:13   But the general gist is there's been a lot of work put into various products, some open source, some not,

00:36:18   that allow you to do many different things.

00:36:21   But one of the things they allow you to do is type a prompt, type a picture of the three hosts of the Accidental Tech podcast

00:36:28   drawn as pixel art.

00:36:30   And these different products will use a whole bunch of machine learning and artificial intelligence to try to,

00:36:37   figuratively speaking, draw

00:36:40   whatever picture you've asked them to draw. Some of them are better than others, and we're going to talk about that

00:36:45   I think a little bit, but it's very very interesting and some of these products

00:36:49   I haven't played with all of them. In fact, I've only played with one of them,

00:36:52   but the one I played with, a lot of times it gave me straight-up garbage,

00:36:56   but occasionally it would come up with something reasonable, and when it did it was kind of

00:37:00   mind-shattering that I could ask a computer with plain text, like describe a phantom picture

00:37:05   I had in my mind in plain text, and have the computer

00:37:08   basically come up with it, it's really wild.

00:37:11   And so that's kind of what we're talking about here.

00:37:14   That, I don't know, John, I think you were most excited

00:37:17   to talk about this, how do you wanna proceed?

00:37:19   - We should list some of the ones that are out there,

00:37:20   I think you wanna try them, we'll have these links

00:37:22   in the show notes, there's DALL-E, D-A-L-L hyphen E,

00:37:25   that's a play on the Salvador DALL-E and WALL-E,

00:37:28   the robot from the Pixar movie.

00:37:30   There's Stable Diffusion, Midjourney, Google Imogen,

00:37:34   a whole bunch of other ones, right?

00:37:36   One of them is available as like a standalone application

00:37:39   that you can run on your ARM-based Mac.

00:37:41   What is that one called?

00:37:42   - Stable Diffusion, I believe that's the one.

00:37:43   - Right, but is it like Diffusion B or something?

00:37:45   - It's Diffusion B.

00:37:46   - Yeah, we'll put a link to that.

00:37:47   That's the one I play with on my Mac as well.

00:37:49   A lot of the other ones have web interfaces.

00:37:50   I think Dolly used to be invitation only for a while,

00:37:54   but now I think it's open to everybody.

00:37:55   So you can follow the links and try them out,

00:37:57   and people post the interesting things they come up with.

00:38:01   And the thing I wanted to talk about with this,

00:38:04   it's been a topic of conversation

00:38:05   because, I mean, first it went around, like, I don't know,

00:38:08   a year or two ago, whenever the first one of these

00:38:10   started coming out, it was like a technical curiosity,

00:38:13   and it started to get mainstream enough

00:38:14   that you'd see articles about it

00:38:16   and just regular sort of tech websites

00:38:18   and other stuff like that, and at a certain point,

00:38:21   it started to be so mainstream that people were using it,

00:38:25   not just as a technical curiosity,

00:38:26   but they were using it to make a picture

00:38:29   that they would then use.

00:38:29   I think there was some controversy

00:38:30   'cause one person was actually writing,

00:38:32   I don't think it was an article about AI Art,

00:38:34   but they, or maybe it was,

00:38:35   They use the AI art to, they talk about this

00:38:37   in the Cortex episode, to make an image

00:38:40   that they included with their article online

00:38:43   rather than paying an artist and people were mad,

00:38:45   like why didn't you pay an artist to do this?

00:38:46   And that sort of gets into the,

00:38:48   I think the most interesting part of this debate is,

00:38:51   given that people are working on this tech,

00:38:53   what does it mean for the future of all things

00:38:57   related to making pictures?

00:38:59   And by the way, there are movie ones now as well,

00:39:01   where you can ask it, like someone,

00:39:02   You can ask it like, a painting of an ice cream cone melting in the sun, and it will do a video of,

00:39:09   you know, a video of a painterly style ice cream cone melting in the sun, right? So it's not just

00:39:13   audio, or not just still images. And this stuff is developing so quickly, it presents a lot of very

00:39:21   thorny questions. Obviously, if you are, if your profession is drawing pictures for money,

00:39:29   and there's a program that lets people draw pictures

00:39:31   by typing what they want to see in the picture.

00:39:34   That probably doesn't make you feel good

00:39:35   about your chosen profession.

00:39:38   There is the predictable sort of Luddite

00:39:41   versus tech enthusiast, you know, battle there

00:39:45   between saying, "Oh, a computer can never do

00:39:47   what a human does," and, you know, like that.

00:39:52   Anytime there's any kind of technology

00:39:53   that previously does something

00:39:54   that could only be done by humans,

00:39:55   there is this battle saying that the new way to do it

00:39:58   It is soulless and bad and evil and is going to corrupt the youth and so on and so forth.

00:40:04   And then the other people who are excited about the tech and just want it to go forward.

00:40:08   And many times throughout history there has been a technology that has caused entire professions

00:40:12   and entire industries to basically disappear or shrink to the point or transform in a way

00:40:17   that's not even recognizable.

00:40:19   Witness the entire industry surrounding having horses pull things with people in them and

00:40:24   the advent of the automobile.

00:40:25   It's not like we don't have horses.

00:40:26   It's not like people don't have jobs making saddles for horses

00:40:28   and shoeing horses and taking care of horses.

00:40:30   All those jobs still exist.

00:40:31   But boy, that industry looks a lot different

00:40:33   than it did before the advent of the automobile,

00:40:35   a lot different.

00:40:36   And so this AI art thing brings all those issues up,

00:40:39   and then people are going around and around that debate.

00:40:41   But I think one of the most interesting aspects

00:40:45   of this debate is how these things work.

00:40:48   Like, how do you make a program where you type in words

00:40:50   and it draws you pictures, right?

00:40:52   And like most sort of machine learning style models,

00:40:55   they are, I don't know if trained is the right word,

00:40:58   but they are given a set of images

00:41:02   and associated words and phrases and stuff

00:41:06   to say, to feed into the model so that they can do this.

00:41:11   So I don't know, so like millions and millions of images,

00:41:13   I'm not sure how they're tagged,

00:41:14   maybe each one is just tagged with a caption

00:41:16   or something like that,

00:41:17   and they grind that up into a big soup,

00:41:19   and that's the technical term.

00:41:21   And then when you say a picture of an ice cream cone,

00:41:23   they give you a picture of an ice cream cone

00:41:25   because they have enough images of enough things

00:41:27   with enough of the words associated with it

00:41:29   that they can synthesize a picture

00:41:31   based on everything they've ever seen

00:41:34   and the association of those words to the images

00:41:36   to get you, not just one,

00:41:38   but multiple pictures of ice cream cones

00:41:39   and trying various attempts at it.

00:41:42   And that raises a lot of interesting questions

00:41:46   in particular, what images were fed to this thing?

00:41:50   Most of the things that are done

00:41:53   for universities or whatever,

00:41:56   this is like sort of research type stuff.

00:41:57   And the first versions of these,

00:41:59   there are lots of image sets that are used

00:42:02   for research purposes that are presumably

00:42:04   like millions and millions of correctly annotated

00:42:09   royalty free images that have been used

00:42:12   in lots of different computer vision studies

00:42:14   for years and years, right?

00:42:16   But there are so many of these things

00:42:18   and they're so popular and the new ones come up every day,

00:42:21   it's not entirely clear what's in all the image sets

00:42:23   that they're using.

00:42:24   So there was a story about this on Arstactica,

00:42:26   I guess actually it's fairly recent.

00:42:28   Headline is artist finds private medical record photos

00:42:31   in popular AI training data set.

00:42:33   (laughing)

00:42:35   - What?

00:42:36   - Someone who found private medical record photos

00:42:38   taken by her doctor in 2013 referenced

00:42:40   in the LA ION 5B image set.

00:42:43   - Whoops.

00:42:45   - Because a lot of the ways they find images

00:42:47   is like, oh, I'll just scrape the web

00:42:48   and anything I find the web I'm sure is fine to use.

00:42:51   Well, no, because there might be a doctor website

00:42:53   that has poor security and has an image exposed to the web

00:42:55   and a web scraper comes along and finds it.

00:42:57   And lo and behold, your like medical images

00:43:00   end up in a dataset that is, you know,

00:43:02   and to be clear, it's not like--

00:43:04   - Isn't this also how my email address

00:43:05   ends up on so many people's lists?

00:43:07   Oh, you must have bought something from us.

00:43:09   Nope, I sure didn't.

00:43:11   - Well, I mean, it's like bad website security

00:43:14   in that like there's a page that is protected,

00:43:15   you know, security through obscurity.

00:43:17   Technically, if you know the URL, you can get to it,

00:43:19   but there's no link to it.

00:43:20   So how can people find it?

00:43:21   Well, a lot of the web scraping things can find links that are not visible because they're

00:43:24   hidden on a page or they do scraping techniques that allow them to find things by iterating

00:43:29   on IDs or stuff like that.

00:43:32   And that's not great.

00:43:33   And on top of that, as we all know, if you are an artist who does any kind of art and

00:43:39   puts it on the internet, you will find that art all over the place.

00:43:44   And you may think this is a show with three software developers.

00:43:47   That doesn't apply to us.

00:43:48   So we make a small amount of art.

00:43:51   You may have seen some of it and purchased some of it

00:43:52   on our t-shirts, and let me tell you,

00:43:54   that very simple art that is on our t-shirts

00:43:56   is all over the freaking web.

00:43:58   Not because we put it there, but it's everywhere, right?

00:44:01   If you put an image on the web,

00:44:03   oh, and you go to the Cotton Bureau page

00:44:04   and it shows you a picture of the shirt,

00:44:05   there's that image on the web,

00:44:07   and a web scraper could find it,

00:44:08   because that page at Cotton Bureau, totally unprotected.

00:44:11   So if a web scraper finds it,

00:44:12   that image is probably in some image set somewhere, right?

00:44:15   It's probably in all these image sets,

00:44:17   because it's in the wild west out there on the internet.

00:44:19   You can find the image, you can put it in.

00:44:20   So there are, and obviously this is just a tiny,

00:44:23   we're doing t-shirt graphs, whatever,

00:44:24   imagine you are an actual artist by profession

00:44:28   and you do this artwork and maybe you have it

00:44:29   on your website that shows your portfolio

00:44:31   of all your great artwork that you're gonna do

00:44:33   and your artwork, probably also your name

00:44:36   and the descriptions of that stuff,

00:44:37   gets shoved into one of these image sets

00:44:40   to the point where, let's say you're a famous artist

00:44:42   and you have a name that people know.

00:44:43   It says like, you know, picture of a toaster oven

00:44:47   in the style of Ralph McQuarrie, right?

00:44:50   That knows who McQuarrie is based on the images they pulled

00:44:54   as they're all over the freaking internet

00:44:55   and his name is attached to all of them

00:44:56   and it's gonna show you a toaster oven drawn in his style.

00:45:00   I think he's dead now, so it's not, but hey,

00:45:01   like tons of living artists,

00:45:04   like you'll type something on one of these things

00:45:05   and they're like, that looks a lot like something I did once

00:45:09   and you know why?

00:45:10   Because some of your artwork is probably fed

00:45:12   into this machine and it's popping out.

00:45:14   And these people are like, well, how can you do that?

00:45:17   Are you allowed?

00:45:18   And they're like, well, it's not really your art.

00:45:19   This was made by the AI.

00:45:20   It's an original work.

00:45:22   It's like, yeah, but it's an original work

00:45:24   informed by work that I did.

00:45:26   And that doesn't seem like,

00:45:27   should I get some kind of royalty for this?

00:45:29   Should you have my permission?

00:45:30   - Does that count as a derivative work

00:45:32   for copyright reasons?

00:45:33   - Yeah, or should you at least get my permission

00:45:35   to include any of my artwork in there?

00:45:36   Or should you clean your data set

00:45:38   to make sure that the images you have,

00:45:39   you actually do have the rights to?

00:45:41   And that's almost impossible because you need millions of images to do this, or at least

00:45:44   a very large number of images.

00:45:46   Having a human vet each one for copyright, it's just, you know, it's like everything

00:45:49   that's true about the internet is true of these AI image things.

00:45:52   Like the perfect world where you're like, oh, we have to make sure every one of the

00:45:56   images that contributes to this input is free and clear and we know all the rights to it,

00:46:01   and that's impossible at scale.

00:46:02   Like that's just not how the internet works.

00:46:05   We can't even get all the movies and television shows made in the pre-internet or on streaming

00:46:09   services because people can't figure out how to do the rights.

00:46:10   And that is a much smaller problem than millions of images and image sets.

00:46:15   So there's that whole debate and rathole about do artists deserve to get paid?

00:46:22   You know, should they be allowed to do this?

00:46:25   Is there some kind of royalty structure?

00:46:26   Should this stuff be removed?

00:46:30   I think the final interest, well, two more interesting things about this.

00:46:34   is given that that's the way these things work,

00:46:39   well actually before we move on to that,

00:46:41   I should ask you too, do you have an opinion

00:46:42   on the artists having their work sucked into the thing?

00:46:46   Like what do you think about the validity

00:46:50   of the artist complaining in that scenario?

00:46:53   - I think it's really still yet to be proven

00:46:56   like what our acceptable standards are for this.

00:46:58   So my barometer for like what is an unacceptable

00:47:04   level of copying, you know, just ethically.

00:47:06   And there's legal definitions as well,

00:47:08   which I think kind of comport with this, but anyway,

00:47:11   is it's based on like, are you, to make a new work,

00:47:16   are you pretty much lifting most of your stuff

00:47:19   from the same source or the same very small number

00:47:23   of sources, then that's kind of over the line.

00:47:26   Whereas if you are taking bits of inspiration

00:47:29   from a diverse set of sources so that the resulting work

00:47:34   doesn't look like just a straight up clone

00:47:36   of one other person's work, but it looks like,

00:47:38   okay, maybe you were inspired in this way by this person,

00:47:40   and this way by this work, and this way by this style,

00:47:43   but it all comes together into a more diverse soup

00:47:46   of a product, I think that's okay.

00:47:49   And so, you can look at these AI generators and say,

00:47:51   well, if you ask for something that is in one particular

00:47:56   person's style, that could result in something

00:48:00   that is over the line, whereas if you just ask

00:48:04   for an image of a slice of pepperoni pizza on a table,

00:48:07   like that's gonna be probably drawing

00:48:09   from so many different data points and input sources

00:48:12   that I don't think if the texture on the pepperoni slice

00:48:16   happens to look like the way you texture something

00:48:18   in Photoshop once, I think that's less of a concern.

00:48:21   But the problem is you can use these tools

00:48:24   the way, whatever the operator wants.

00:48:28   And if the operator says rip off this one person's work

00:48:31   or their style, you're gonna have a problem.

00:48:35   But I don't necessarily know that that's the fault

00:48:37   of the technology, that's the fault of the user.

00:48:40   - So assigning blame on this,

00:48:45   how is this different than other scenarios?

00:48:47   Assigning blame is always fun when it's a computer program,

00:48:50   quote unquote, doing it,

00:48:51   but then the user is prompting it to do it.

00:48:53   And that kind of leads to the question

00:48:56   that you usually end up at in these type of debates is,

00:48:58   Is this thing doing anything different than what people do?

00:49:02   If you ask a human artist to draw something,

00:49:05   they have a corpus of images they've seen

00:49:07   through their entire life that contributes to the output.

00:49:10   You could say, well, if I give it to a person,

00:49:15   they're gonna do original work,

00:49:16   but the original work of an artist is necessarily informed

00:49:19   by their entire life experience of seeing everything,

00:49:23   of seeing things in real life, obviously,

00:49:24   but also of seeing other pictures and works of art,

00:49:27   inevitably and

00:49:28   Some people would say well this AI program what it's doing is absolutely no different than what a human does

00:49:33   It has a series of inputs and that contributes to what it's going to make if you ask a human

00:49:39   To give you a logo in the style of a solid bass logo

00:49:42   They can probably do that because they know about those logos because they're very famous and he's a very famous logo designer

00:49:46   And if you do that

00:49:47   He's not keeping a dead people. He's not gonna rise from the grave and sue you

00:49:51   because you can't sort of

00:49:55   Trademark a style if I tell you to draw something in the style of any living artist

00:50:00   You can do that and they can't say oh it's illegal for you to do that because you just copied myself now

00:50:04   They may look down on you and say you didn't come up with your own original style

00:50:07   But every style is a you know

00:50:09   Everything's a remix every the style is a that we think of as new and novel is itself informed by all the other styles that came

00:50:15   Before it so in one sense. I agree that this program is

00:50:21   doing something that if you squint it looks very similar to what people also do.

00:50:27   But that leads to the second question which is, can this program, not can it make anything

00:50:34   new, can any of these programs make anything new?

00:50:37   But like if you sort of fast forward this you do the, whatever it is, it's not argument

00:50:42   ad absurdum, no, but if you just, it's an infinite timeline argument.

00:50:46   So say the artists become the horse and buggy salesman, right?

00:50:52   And they still exist and they're out there, but boy, there are a lot fewer of them because

00:50:55   these AI programs get so good that in the average working life of a person, nobody actually

00:51:00   pays an artist to do anything.

00:51:02   We just type words into a program and we get an output, right?

00:51:06   If all the input to these programs are images made before these programs existed, then how

00:51:12   does that sustain itself?

00:51:13   Can you feed the output of these things back in as the input?

00:51:16   So forget about computers.

00:51:17   You've just got humans making art.

00:51:19   Humans make art, then new humans arrive and see the art made by the previous humans, and

00:51:23   they in turn make "new art" that then the future humans see and it feeds back in.

00:51:27   So you can see how the people are kind of like programs in this scenario where they

00:51:31   see existing art, they make "new art," and then that cycle repeats itself.

00:51:36   If you took the humans out of the equation, could the machines continue to do the same

00:51:41   thing?

00:51:42   as input all the art ever made by humans,

00:51:44   and then going forward, taking as input

00:51:46   all the art made by AI programs.

00:51:49   Or would they stagnate and feed in on themselves

00:51:52   to everything that was just a giant gray mush

00:51:53   because like, you know,

00:51:55   mixing all the paint colors together?

00:51:56   Or would they be just as averse as human artists?

00:51:59   And that I think makes me personally circle back to,

00:52:02   are they doing what people do?

00:52:04   And I think fundamentally they are not doing what people do.

00:52:07   Big strokes it seems like they're doing,

00:52:09   hey, they see pictures and they make new pictures.

00:52:11   That's exactly what people do.

00:52:13   But it's not.

00:52:14   Like, all these AI things,

00:52:15   and that's why general artificial intelligence,

00:52:17   or whatever you wanna call it, is so far away.

00:52:20   Even if these programs were operating the exact same way

00:52:24   that the center of our brains that makes pictures do,

00:52:27   and they're not, but even if they were,

00:52:29   there's so much more to a human mind

00:52:32   than the part that makes pictures based on word prompts.

00:52:36   And what these programs don't have,

00:52:38   and won't have for a long, long, long time

00:52:41   is the life experience of a human,

00:52:44   all the sensory input they've ever had,

00:52:46   all the emotions they experience,

00:52:47   the way humans judge a picture,

00:52:50   whether it accomplishes the goal they set out from this,

00:52:52   the ability to set a goal for themselves,

00:52:55   the ability to experience art

00:52:56   and feel what the art is meant to feel,

00:52:59   thus judging whether this art has achieved

00:53:01   what you wanted it to achieve

00:53:02   or inspiring you to do something else

00:53:04   based on how something you saw made you feel.

00:53:06   None of these programs can do any of that,

00:53:08   and it necessarily makes the funnel through which

00:53:13   they have to shove all of their creative efforts so narrow.

00:53:16   They do not have the wealth of experiences of a human.

00:53:19   All they have is visual input and descriptions.

00:53:22   They don't have an experience of the art.

00:53:25   So the art that they make can only be informed

00:53:27   by those tiny little things

00:53:29   'cause they literally can't experience anything else.

00:53:31   They have no memory, no life, not memory in that sense,

00:53:35   like no memories, no life experience,

00:53:37   no sensory organs, no emotions, no thoughts,

00:53:40   no awareness like they're not artificial intelligence

00:53:44   in that sense.

00:53:45   Do you need that to make a picture of a slice on a table?

00:53:48   No, but I think you need that to continue the cycle

00:53:53   of creation of art with the quality level

00:53:57   that we have come to expect from humans.

00:53:59   Because as we make each new generation of humans,

00:54:00   they have new experiences, their life experiences

00:54:03   and the art that they see and the things that they feel

00:54:05   and form the things that they create.

00:54:07   and it is a rich tapestry, as they say.

00:54:09   And it's great to be able to feed that into an AI

00:54:11   and have it chomp that down,

00:54:12   but if you take the humans out of that equation

00:54:14   and leave the AI as stupid as they are now,

00:54:17   it would basically be like they were working

00:54:19   from the same set of data forever

00:54:21   and they would just grind it to a pulp

00:54:22   and it would just be this incredible stagnation.

00:54:24   Not that I think this is gonna happen

00:54:25   because you can't stop humans from making things.

00:54:28   Unless the machines kill us all Terminator style,

00:54:31   we don't have to worry about that.

00:54:32   But just as an academic exercise,

00:54:34   I don't think AI art is a sustainable thing

00:54:39   without human creativity as an important input.

00:54:41   It would be sad to think that the only purpose

00:54:43   of human creativity in artwork would be to feed into AIs

00:54:45   to do most of the drudgery, and then, you know, again,

00:54:47   they'd be like the people who own horses now.

00:54:49   They're out there, there's a lot of them,

00:54:51   but not nearly as many as there were.

00:54:53   And I don't think we have any particular fear

00:54:55   of that in our lifetime.

00:54:57   But that's kind of where I come down on this.

00:54:59   Setting aside the legalities and everything,

00:55:01   These programs are so dumb and so bad at what they do,

00:55:05   we're impressed.

00:55:06   You know, it's, this one analogy,

00:55:08   like seeing a rhinoceros dance.

00:55:09   You're impressed that it could do it,

00:55:10   but boy, the dancing isn't that great, right?

00:55:12   And they're never going to be adequate

00:55:16   to sustain a creative timeline of works of art like humans

00:55:21   until their experience of life is as rich

00:55:24   as a human's experience of life,

00:55:25   in which point we have lots of other problems.

00:55:28   And we're not even close to that, so don't worry about it.

00:55:31   Don't let the people who are tell you that AI is going to take over and kill us all.

00:55:34   If you're listening to this now, that will not happen when you're alive, so don't worry

00:55:36   about it.

00:55:37   Kind of like self-driving cars.

00:55:38   Hey-oh!

00:55:39   Hey-oh!

00:55:40   Well, but I think there's actually some overlap there, because I don't think that this is

00:55:45   going to put artists out of business as a whole.

00:55:51   It's more like thinking about this is a new digital tool that can save a lot of busy work.

00:55:58   it's gonna make certain types of art more accessible

00:56:01   than they were before to more people,

00:56:04   and it's going to save a bunch of time

00:56:07   on work that previously was more manual.

00:56:10   So if you think about it kind of like

00:56:12   when digital art came around,

00:56:15   when Photoshop and everything came around

00:56:17   and digital drawing tools and things like that,

00:56:19   there was a whole industry before that

00:56:22   of people who were doing a lot of this stuff by hand.

00:56:25   If photo retouching by hand,

00:56:27   painting and illustrating by hand.

00:56:29   And when you move to digital,

00:56:31   a whole bunch of things got easier.

00:56:33   And things became much more easily possible

00:56:36   that weren't easily possible before.

00:56:39   And so that did inevitably put out of work

00:56:42   like sign painters and things like that to some degree.

00:56:46   But most people who were artists in some way

00:56:49   embraced the new tools in some form and just became,

00:56:53   their job just became a little bit different.

00:56:55   But it didn't kill the art.

00:56:57   it just changed what was out there and what was available

00:57:00   and how you had to use it and what was possible.

00:57:04   And again, a bunch of new people were able to do it

00:57:06   who weren't able to do it before

00:57:07   or maybe it was like a little bit too tedious before

00:57:10   and now people were able to do things

00:57:12   who like wouldn't have done the old tedious way

00:57:15   but were willing to do the new digital way.

00:57:17   And so it just, it changes things.

00:57:18   And not everyone comes along on those transitions.

00:57:22   Every time technology gets better,

00:57:24   certain jobs aren't necessary anymore.

00:57:27   of the horse analogy, and not every person

00:57:30   who was keeping horses became an auto mechanic.

00:57:33   It doesn't work that way, but a lot of people,

00:57:37   a lot of people do become auto mechanics

00:57:38   when that demand rises up.

00:57:40   In this case, when digital art tools came around,

00:57:43   a lot of people became digital artists.

00:57:46   Not everyone who was previously drawing stuff by hand,

00:57:48   which by the way still exists and is fine,

00:57:50   but not everyone who did that went digital,

00:57:53   but many people did, and many new people started on digital.

00:57:57   And so art is a thing that's still a major thing in the world.

00:58:01   It's just different than it used to be.

00:58:02   I think these AI tools, using them and figuring out

00:58:06   how to make these text prompts, how to control them,

00:58:11   what knobs and dials to adjust, how you word things,

00:58:14   what you even think to create, that's all art.

00:58:18   That's part of the process.

00:58:20   These are now just able to generate things much more

00:58:24   quickly than a human can.

00:58:25   But then humans are still directing them,

00:58:27   humans are still tweaking them,

00:58:29   humans are still deciding, okay, you know what,

00:58:31   generate 100 pictures of this thing,

00:58:33   and I'm gonna pick the one that I like out of this 100

00:58:36   and have you riff on that a little more.

00:58:39   And then go to that one, generate 100 riffs on that one.

00:58:43   Okay, I'm gonna pick these two,

00:58:44   let's follow these through and do more with these.

00:58:47   That's art, that's humans doing art with a different tool.

00:58:51   And it doesn't have to be entirely used

00:58:53   for entire images too.

00:58:55   As the tooling and as technology gets more mature

00:58:59   and more established, these kind of tools

00:59:01   can be used for things like, okay, you know what,

00:59:03   I'm drawing this thing in Photoshop,

00:59:05   I have a brick wall here, can you just put a brick texture

00:59:07   on this wall that looks good, that hasn't been used

00:59:09   a million times by everyone else

00:59:10   who's ever used Photoshop in their life?

00:59:12   And it can generate a brick texture, fine.

00:59:14   Or hey, this car that's in the background of this photo,

00:59:16   I don't want this car to be here,

00:59:18   can you delete that in a way that's even smarter

00:59:20   than constant aware fill and stuff like that?

00:59:22   As the AI tools get better, it adds a lot of capabilities

00:59:26   for artists to eliminate busy work that used to exist

00:59:31   or to do things in a nicer way

00:59:33   than they used to be able to be done.

00:59:34   And so I see this really as a mixed bag.

00:59:39   There are, yes, some downsides,

00:59:41   and some artists will be put out of work by this,

00:59:44   but it also opens up so much potential

00:59:46   for artists to use these tools.

00:59:49   the work that is going to be reduced by this

00:59:53   is gonna be stuff like the crappy client saying,

00:59:56   "Hey, can you show me 50 different versions of my logo?"

00:59:59   Like, maybe they can skip that step

01:00:01   and move on to more interesting things.

01:00:03   And again, that's not gonna take everyone along with them,

01:00:05   but I don't see these tools as like a universal bad

01:00:09   or like a doomsday scenario for human-created artwork.

01:00:13   Quite the opposite, it's just new tools for humans to use.

01:00:16   - I think of the crappy state these things are now,

01:00:18   like the relatively affirmative state.

01:00:20   I think now is the time that is the most rich for artists to potentially have legal action

01:00:26   against them because it's very difficult to tell without sort of knowing, you know, I

01:00:30   know this is not how they work, but imagine if you could ask one of them, "Okay, so you

01:00:34   made an image for me.

01:00:35   Can you tell me what images contributed to this image that you made?"

01:00:38   And again, that's not how that works.

01:00:39   They don't just take five images and smush them together, but like big picture wise in

01:00:43   the abstract, lots of millions of images in input and then output, right?

01:00:46   And sometimes I can imagine that these more primitive, very early versions of this produce

01:00:53   a work where you could overlay an actual existing thing from its corpus on a section of it and

01:00:58   say, "Okay, this is literally just lifted.

01:01:00   It's smushed and smoothed a little bit, but literally I drew this slice of pizza."

01:01:04   And you put it in the image and you rotated it and scaled it.

01:01:07   And that's a no-go.

01:01:10   If you did that with, if you did like a, you know, a cover of a magazine and you did it

01:01:16   by like stealing the cover of a different magazine and just, you know, cropping out

01:01:20   everything except for the slice of pizza, like draw your own slice of pizza, right?

01:01:24   There is a line to be drawn there like, "Oh, I was doing a collage or whatever," but that's

01:01:27   what these legal cases are about.

01:01:29   And you know, there's a whole other thing to be said about the sad state of legal cases

01:01:32   on songs that are identical, but for artwork, you could say, "Oh, I was doing a collage,

01:01:36   it's a derivative work, so on and so forth, versus I just straight-up lifted this pizza

01:01:40   slice from this other artist thing. It didn't change it enough for it to be legally distinct.

01:01:45   As these things get better, there will be less of that, less chance of that happening, that

01:01:49   it really will be all new, totally fresh work. But part of that relies on a big sort of leveling up

01:01:57   of these things in understanding literally anything. What they understand now is so limited.

01:02:03   You could say, "These things don't know what a slice of pizza is." Well, they kind of do,

01:02:06   because of all the pictures of slices of pizza and the fact that they could say

01:02:09   that triangle thing is probably the pizza slice because I have a hundred

01:02:12   thousand examples of it right? I mean in all fairness like most of America doesn't

01:02:15   know what a slice of pizza is. Right exactly but they don't actually know

01:02:18   they may be able to pick out the thing that corresponds to pizza from an image

01:02:23   but they have no idea what pizza is you know could they do something like draw

01:02:29   heat lines coming off a pizza only because they have existing artwork that

01:02:32   shows heat lines but they don't know pizza as hot they don't know what hot is

01:02:34   They don't know what pizza is. They don't want food is like they're again

01:02:37   They're they're uh, they're so incredibly dumb that even even if they are synthesizing new images in the same way that our brains synthesize

01:02:45   New images our brains have so much other stuff that informs the thing that we're making which is why

01:02:50   You're saying we're gonna you need a human to guide this because these things know nothing and so you can't even guide them

01:02:55   To do things that require them to have literally any understanding of anything that they're doing right, you know, like

01:03:01   Could you put more place settings at that table?

01:03:04   Maybe if they have images that say place setting

01:03:07   and there's different numbers of them,

01:03:08   then I could adapt, but they don't know what a table is.

01:03:09   They don't know what a place setting is.

01:03:10   They don't know what people are or that they sit at tables

01:03:13   and like future versions of this will be better

01:03:15   in that regard and then they will be much better tools

01:03:18   because they have to have some kind of understanding.

01:03:21   In fact, probably in very specialized areas,

01:03:23   they'll gain that understanding,

01:03:24   but getting computers to understand what a person is,

01:03:27   what a table is, what a pizza is,

01:03:28   how they relate to each other,

01:03:30   we've been working on that for decades and decades.

01:03:32   It's way harder than you think it is.

01:03:34   These things look like magic because they're like,

01:03:36   why are we doing that?

01:03:36   It's like trying to make an airplane

01:03:38   by making a thing that flaps its wings.

01:03:39   That's the wrong way to do it.

01:03:40   Even though that's how birds fly,

01:03:42   it's stupid for us to try to make a mechanical bird.

01:03:45   Instead, how about we make a fixed wing thing

01:03:47   and we put a lawnmower engine on it and a propeller

01:03:50   and that's a way better way to make an airplane,

01:03:52   even though it has nothing to do with how birds fly

01:03:55   or a little bit to do with it,

01:03:56   but it's not an ornithopter, right?

01:03:58   These are like that for image generation.

01:04:00   - Wait, what?

01:04:01   Because we can't make we can't make a thing that thinks yet

01:04:05   But we can make some incredibly dumb thing that we feed enough of our intelligence into by saying here's a bunch of images

01:04:12   Here's descriptions of them the words, you know what words are

01:04:14   Well there now do that and we've got just enough to do this magical stuff

01:04:18   But like as a tool

01:04:20   Trying to herd this towards something that you want is even harder than trying to herd an artist or what you want

01:04:25   Because at least you can tell the arcs to make the logo bigger and if they don't do it

01:04:28   It's because they think you're a jerk now because they don't understand what you mean

01:04:30   Ornithopter, a machine designed to achieve flight by means of flapping wings. Today I learned.

01:04:36   Yeah, same. I knew that I knew the word existed. I could not in a million years have told you what

01:04:41   exactly it is. You should know it from the 1994 movie Dune where they all talk about,

01:04:44   "Let's get in the ornithopter," and they get into these things that have wings that do not flap.

01:04:47   Come on. Marco didn't see it. Neither did I. Please don't make me, John. Please don't.

01:04:53   The new Dune movie, those wings flap, baby. Now, the thing that really changed my opinion

01:05:00   about this. Well, I didn't have a strong opinion about it, but what really kind of blew my

01:05:04   mind, I guess, is the three of us are in a Slack together, and another person in that

01:05:09   Slack was saying, oh, and I'm heavily paraphrasing here, but, oh, I was looking at designing

01:05:15   like an app icon or an image, I forget exactly what it was, and I knew a vague direction

01:05:20   of where I wanted to go with it, but I didn't really know specifically what I wanted to

01:05:24   do. This wasn't the case, but like let's say for the sake of discussion they were trying

01:05:27   to draw a settings icon and they knew they wanted a gear, but they didn't know

01:05:32   do I have a gear or like several concentric gears, do I have a series of

01:05:36   gears all touching each other on the outside, like you know what exactly

01:05:40   what am I looking for here? I just know I want something with gears and they

01:05:43   said they put basically app icon with gears in it or something along those

01:05:47   lines into one of these projects and it spit out you know like 15 different

01:05:51   And this person didn't really love any one of the options, but they said that it did a really good job of getting their creative juices flowing, saying, "Okay, now I have something to work with. Now I know where I want to go with this."

01:06:04   And this is what you were alluding to earlier, Marco. I just think something like that, having this kind of fascinating tool in your tool belt, is extremely cool.

01:06:13   And as someone who can barely draw a stick figure,

01:06:17   I think being able, especially as these things get better,

01:06:20   being able to, I don't know, like make my own app icon potentially,

01:06:24   or get close.

01:06:26   You know, not that I have any problems with the app icons I have.

01:06:28   I love them, and I got them from a dear friend of mine.

01:06:32   But nevertheless, it would be neat if I was capable

01:06:35   of even putting like a placeholder icon there that wasn't utter garbage.

01:06:39   and I just think having this tool available to more people,

01:06:44   especially non-artists, I think that's neat.

01:06:47   And the thing that gives me pause about it is,

01:06:50   well, what happens to artists?

01:06:52   In the same way that I worry about GitHub co-pilot

01:06:55   or whatever it is, and I worry, well, what happens to us?

01:06:58   What happens to developers?

01:07:00   - Don't worry about that.

01:07:01   - I know, but you get my point, though.

01:07:03   - Well, and in the same way,

01:07:04   co-pilot is basically fancy autocomplete.

01:07:07   And I think we can look, like, this is basically, like,

01:07:10   fancy bucket fill.

01:07:12   - Fair.

01:07:13   - Well, but the difference is,

01:07:14   not to go off on the tangent on Copilot,

01:07:16   bucket fill, to determine whether it has done

01:07:19   its job adequately, you look at it and go,

01:07:21   is it okay for what I want it to be?

01:07:22   Fine.

01:07:23   Code, not quite that easy.

01:07:26   'Cause if we could look at code and figure

01:07:27   and know whether it was doing what we intended it,

01:07:29   we wouldn't have to use Copilot.

01:07:31   So Copilot will generate some code,

01:07:33   does the code do what you want it to do?

01:07:35   Why don't you look at it and tell me?

01:07:37   That turns out to be really, really hard to do.

01:07:40   So I don't think we have, because in the end,

01:07:43   you can use AI art things to full stop substitute

01:07:47   for a thing that a person could do.

01:07:49   But copilot, you need a human to look at that

01:07:53   before you check it into the air traffic control system,

01:07:56   let's say.

01:07:57   Maybe for a game, you can get away with it or something,

01:07:59   or non-information critical,

01:08:00   but a copilot has no idea what it's doing,

01:08:03   even more so than a person.

01:08:05   So we need people to look at it and to check that what,

01:08:08   same way when you use autocomplete.

01:08:10   - But John, wouldn't your unit test catch any problem?

01:08:12   - Yeah, if you autocomplete and instead of--

01:08:15   - Oh, can it write my unit test for me?

01:08:16   - You wish. - Maybe, it probably can.

01:08:18   But are the unit tests right?

01:08:20   Like in the same way when you do autocompleting,

01:08:21   you think you're autocompleting NSString

01:08:23   but in autocompletes, what was the thing

01:08:24   that used to do NSSet or whatever before Xcode?

01:08:26   - It was much less common, like NSScanner

01:08:30   or something like that.

01:08:31   - Yeah, whatever came first alphabetically.

01:08:32   If you don't notice that's what came out of autocomplete,

01:08:34   Guess what? Your program's not gonna work.

01:08:35   You always have to look at the code that is doing it.

01:08:38   Not like it's a help.

01:08:39   It's like, you know, content-aware fill

01:08:41   to really help you, especially on programming interviews.

01:08:43   You should say, "Can I use Copilot?

01:08:44   Great, now I'm gonna reverse this red black tree for you."

01:08:47   But yeah, you gotta check its work.

01:08:50   But for the AI things,

01:08:51   the checking of the work is much simpler.

01:08:53   You look at it and you decide,

01:08:54   "Am I happy with what it has made?"

01:08:57   - Yeah, yeah.

01:08:57   I just, I fear and feel for artists

01:09:01   that, you know, maybe wouldn't be able

01:09:03   to make a living as artists anymore,

01:09:05   but I agree with what you were saying,

01:09:07   that that's quite a ways in the future,

01:09:09   and we're nowhere near there yet.

01:09:11   And eventually, the only thing that's inevitable is change.

01:09:15   If you're a developer that's getting your job usurped

01:09:18   by artificial intelligence,

01:09:19   then you're gonna have to find a new way to make money,

01:09:21   and same thing with an artist.

01:09:22   But I don't know.

01:09:24   My initial reaction was, get off my lawn, this is barbaric,

01:09:28   we can't take from real and true artists,

01:09:31   But I worry that as I get older,

01:09:34   that's my natural reaction is to just yell,

01:09:36   "Get off my lawn."

01:09:36   And so I'm trying very desperately to fight that.

01:09:39   And I think having this tool available,

01:09:41   especially to people like me,

01:09:42   who I have no artistic ability whatsoever,

01:09:45   I think it's exciting and I think it's very fascinating.

01:09:47   - So the problem with having, well, first of all,

01:09:49   just to address what you said there,

01:09:50   I totally agree with Marco that this is yet another tool

01:09:53   that will be used by artists.

01:09:54   Like Content-Aware Phil is the best example.

01:09:56   They didn't use AI to advertise that

01:09:58   because it wasn't in FAD at the time,

01:09:59   but, and it works slightly differently,

01:10:01   but content-aware fill powered by this type of thing

01:10:04   gets even better.

01:10:06   It's a tool that artists will use.

01:10:07   And the mundane tasks that artists do,

01:10:10   for example, for my childhood,

01:10:13   painting cells in Disney animation,

01:10:15   like coloring in like the people's dresses

01:10:17   and making the sky blue and the grass green and everything,

01:10:19   that used to be a job where you would paint

01:10:22   to fill those regions,

01:10:23   'cause how else are you gonna make something

01:10:25   filled with the color green

01:10:25   if you don't fill it with the color green?

01:10:27   Computers made that real easy.

01:10:29   you just click the bucket tool and look,

01:10:30   it just filled the whole area with green.

01:10:32   That put all the people who were painting

01:10:34   those cells out of a job.

01:10:35   You're like, oh, they were just doing a mundane test.

01:10:37   That was incredibly skilled work.

01:10:39   It's only mundane for the computer to do it

01:10:41   because very often the strengths of computers

01:10:44   are the exact opposite of the strengths

01:10:45   and weaknesses of humans.

01:10:47   A computer finds it really easy to fill a region,

01:10:49   especially if that region is correctly contained,

01:10:51   with a solid color, whereas a human

01:10:54   has to carefully control a brush.

01:10:55   And so you would say the person doing that work

01:10:58   is incredibly skilled and the computer doing that work

01:11:00   is as dumb as rocks and that often is the case.

01:11:03   But it doesn't change the fact that they're out of work

01:11:04   because now the computer just does the fill

01:11:06   on all that stuff.

01:11:07   Same thing for hand-drawn animation

01:11:09   in the age of 3D animation.

01:11:10   Doing 3D animation is incredibly difficult.

01:11:12   There are incredibly skilled artists that do that.

01:11:14   They have to have all the skills of traditional artists

01:11:16   on top of computer skills.

01:11:17   But if you are a 2D artist and you don't know

01:11:20   how to use computers and don't care to learn,

01:11:22   you've got a problem.

01:11:23   In fact, if you watch the Disney Plus,

01:11:24   on Disney Plus there's an ILM documentary,

01:11:26   what is it called?

01:11:27   I don't know, just go to Disney Plus and search for ILM.

01:11:31   And part of that documentary is seeing what the advent

01:11:34   of computer technology did to Industrial Light and Magic,

01:11:36   to the people who were there, like the model makers

01:11:38   and the creature shop people or whatever.

01:11:40   Like if technology comes slow enough, people die and retire

01:11:44   and then the new generation does new tech.

01:11:46   But if it comes fast enough, people actually end up

01:11:48   getting booted out of their jobs

01:11:49   or have to learn new skills.

01:11:50   And that's just part of the world.

01:11:51   But I think mostly this stuff,

01:11:54   even at the rate it's developing,

01:11:55   people think, oh, it's going so fast.

01:11:57   next week you'll be able to make a feature-length movie by just writing a phrase like no you won't

01:12:00   because to get to Casey's earlier or a later point um you like the fact that you don't have artistic

01:12:05   skill but you can just ask this thing to make uh you know a picture now i'm gonna sort of uh show

01:12:11   the uh counterpoint to my earlier point about it's easier to tell whether you're happy with the

01:12:17   picture than to tell whether the code copilot generated does what you wanted to do part of

01:12:22   making that decision so let's say i have no artistic taste but now i can just make it make

01:12:26   make the image for you.

01:12:27   If you have no artistic taste and no artistic skill,

01:12:30   your ability to judge whether what it generated is good or not

01:12:33   is also impaired.

01:12:34   [LAUGHTER]

01:12:34   Fair.

01:12:35   Fair.

01:12:36   Like, yes, being able to do it is one skill,

01:12:39   but also having the taste to know this is the good icon

01:12:42   with the gears versus this is the bad icon for the gears

01:12:44   is itself an artistic skill.

01:12:46   And just because a computer made you 50 of them

01:12:48   and you get to pick one, the picking of the one

01:12:50   is the skill, which is why you need

01:12:52   artists to use these tools.

01:12:54   Content-Aware Philo is available

01:12:55   on all our copies of Photoshop,

01:12:57   and yet if we use Photoshop,

01:12:58   we can't do what a great artist can do with Photoshop

01:13:00   'cause we're not great Photoshop artists, right?

01:13:02   And I think picking, you know, like,

01:13:04   just look at anything,

01:13:05   anything that requires any kind of, you know, taste.

01:13:08   Like, even if you're presented with a thousand options,

01:13:10   if you don't know which one is actually better

01:13:12   or the one you pick is not the one

01:13:14   that the world thinks is good,

01:13:15   and, you know, for reasons that you don't understand why,

01:13:18   it's not pleasing, but you don't like any of them,

01:13:20   or the one you think is awesome everyone else thinks is ugly,

01:13:22   Like there's always a place for that because again,

01:13:25   the things that are generating this have no awareness

01:13:29   of anything, they're just being led by us.

01:13:32   And so like any tool, the result is going to be

01:13:37   heavily informed by the person using the tool,

01:13:40   even if the quote using of the tool is just pointing

01:13:43   to a grid of pictures and saying, I like that one.

01:13:45   And even if you repeat that process a thousand times,

01:13:47   give me 50 more, give me 50 more, give me 50 more,

01:13:49   and just keep pointing to the ones that you like.

01:13:51   If you have bad taste, you will end up with a bad icon

01:13:54   at the end of it no matter what.

01:13:56   No computer is gonna save you.

01:13:58   And that gets back to what is it that makes good taste?

01:14:02   Are all the computers doing what we do?

01:14:06   And I have to say that like most things in AI,

01:14:09   the answer is no until their experience of their existence

01:14:14   is something close to what our experience is,

01:14:17   which would allow them to learn things

01:14:20   and have memories and experience life the same way we do,

01:14:25   something that doesn't do that will never be able to create

01:14:29   or judge art in the same way that we do.

01:14:31   So we will always be a necessary ingredient in that stew.

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01:16:24   - All right, let's do some Ask ATP

01:16:29   and let's start with Philip who writes,

01:16:32   I recently got a MacBook and I'm struggling

01:16:34   to build a solid mental model

01:16:35   for window management on macOS.

01:16:37   I've been using Linux with a tiling window manager

01:16:39   and things felt simpler.

01:16:40   I'm not trying to replicate this setup

01:16:42   and want to learn the quote unquote Mac way,

01:16:44   but I can't seem to grok it.

01:16:45   I'm not sure which features I should be using

01:16:48   between mission control spaces,

01:16:49   application switcher, hide, minimize,

01:16:50   full screen with tiling, hot corners, et cetera.

01:16:53   And I often end up with a lot of window clutter

01:16:55   where I can't even seem to find the one window I need.

01:16:57   Can you refer to a primer on macOS window management?

01:16:59   How do you think about and organize

01:17:01   your applications in Windows?

01:17:02   I've listened to the Windows of Syracuse County,

01:17:04   but can't tell if Jon is messing about.

01:17:07   No, he was not messing about,

01:17:08   which is why Marco and I still five, six, seven years later

01:17:11   are gobsmacked by that episode.

01:17:13   I think it's episode 96, if I'm not mistaken.

01:17:16   That half-hour, 45-minute segment of ATP

01:17:19   might, to this day, be my favorite part,

01:17:21   or favorite segment we've ever done on ATP,

01:17:23   because we didn't know it was coming.

01:17:25   And I don't wanna speak for Marco,

01:17:26   but I'm gonna speak for Marco in saying

01:17:28   it was flabbergasting, like just stupefying

01:17:32   the absolute bananas way in which John Siracus

01:17:36   manages his seven trillion windows.

01:17:38   - And yet, what have you learned since then?

01:17:39   - Nothing.

01:17:40   - Have you amended your ways?

01:17:41   No, you have not.

01:17:42   - Because I'm not a monster that keeps

01:17:44   the ED5 building Windows open.

01:17:45   - No, you're just a little baby.

01:17:46   - Right, exactly.

01:17:48   - So getting to Phillip's question,

01:17:50   what is the Mac way to manage your Windows?

01:17:52   I think you two, at this point,

01:17:53   are better equipped than me to answer this,

01:17:55   because I think the answer is just do what Windows people do.

01:17:57   Zoom everything to full screen,

01:17:58   'cause you have no freaking idea how to deal with Windows.

01:17:59   - No. - No, no, no, no.

01:18:02   - The great thing about macOS window management

01:18:05   is that macOS 10 started out trying to get people

01:18:10   who used Mac OS 9 and earlier to like it.

01:18:13   - I don't know about that.

01:18:14   I feel like it did the opposite of that.

01:18:15   - I didn't say it succeeded.

01:18:17   - I'm not sure it really even tried,

01:18:19   but I get what you're saying.

01:18:20   There was some acknowledgement that there was something

01:18:23   that existed before the Mac,

01:18:24   but it was a grudging acknowledgement.

01:18:26   - Right, so anyway, as it went on,

01:18:29   it later took a larger role in trying

01:18:32   to get Windows people to like it,

01:18:34   and then later on, it took a larger role

01:18:37   in trying to get iOS people to like it.

01:18:40   And now it's in this weird mishmash

01:18:42   where they're trying to move it forward with iOS

01:18:45   and the iPad somehow.

01:18:47   And so the result of all of this

01:18:49   is that there are a million different ways

01:18:52   to manage Windows on macOS.

01:18:54   It basically ended up with this mishmash

01:18:56   where it kind of supports all of these different things

01:18:58   you might wanna do.

01:19:00   So what I would recommend is basically

01:19:04   play with different options and just see what works for you.

01:19:07   Now, I can tell you what I do,

01:19:09   'cause I was a Windows person until 2004-ish,

01:19:12   when I began a two year transition

01:19:17   to Mac full-time at that point.

01:19:20   But anyway, what I do, first of all, hide versus minimize.

01:19:24   You want to hide.

01:19:26   Command-H is your new best friend.

01:19:28   As a new person on Mac, you're gonna want

01:19:31   all the keyboard shortcuts to make this stuff easier,

01:19:33   and Command-H is gonna be one of the things

01:19:35   you use the most, up there with Command + Q for quit.

01:19:38   - I almost never hide Windows, almost never.

01:19:39   - Oh no.

01:19:41   Anyway, it might be new to you, the fact that on the Mac,

01:19:44   an app can have no Windows but still be running.

01:19:47   So when you're done with an app, Command + Q.

01:19:50   If you wanna close a window or tab, Command + W.

01:19:53   And then Command + H for hide.

01:19:54   These are things, other, Windows has Alt + Tab,

01:19:58   we have Command + Tab, it's in the same position

01:20:00   on the keyboard even.

01:20:02   We also have, since, you know, Alt + Tab on Windows

01:20:04   goes between different windows all individually.

01:20:09   On the Mac, Command Tab goes through apps,

01:20:12   much to John's chagrin in certain cases

01:20:14   the way it does this, but it goes through apps

01:20:16   and then Command Tilde, the button right above the Tab key,

01:20:19   on the US keyboard at least,

01:20:20   goes between different windows of the app you're currently in

01:20:23   so again, these are kind of like training wheels

01:20:26   and getting into Mac window management from other systems,

01:20:29   most likely windows.

01:20:31   So those I think are the main entry points.

01:20:35   And then whether you like maximize to full screen

01:20:38   like John just accused Casey of,

01:20:40   which Mac OS makes kind of difficult.

01:20:42   Whether you even use full screen mode

01:20:44   or just make Windows big, that's up to you.

01:20:47   On those things, I make Windows big when they need to be

01:20:50   but not when they don't.

01:20:51   I don't use full screen mode on anything

01:20:53   because it sucks in many other ways.

01:20:55   And then spaces, well that's virtual desktops.

01:20:59   every windowing system has that.

01:21:01   If you use spaces in your previous systems,

01:21:03   you might need it here, you might not.

01:21:05   It's up to you.

01:21:06   You can try it, feel free, no one's gonna bother you.

01:21:09   The things like mission control,

01:21:12   or what used to be called expose,

01:21:13   where you kinda like zoom all the windows out at once

01:21:16   and do stuff with them.

01:21:17   I don't really do that.

01:21:19   I used to, like when it was expose back in the early days,

01:21:22   I don't really do that now.

01:21:24   The one thing that I do a lot is the F11 to show desktop,

01:21:28   where you hit F11 or whatever the desktop key is

01:21:30   on the Apple keyboard,

01:21:32   and it shoves all the windows out to the sides

01:21:36   and exposes the desktop where I keep,

01:21:37   yes, files I'm working on.

01:21:40   That's a whole thing.

01:21:41   I do it, everyone does it, who cares?

01:21:43   So I oftentimes will zoom all the windows out,

01:21:46   grab a file on the desktop, hit F11 again

01:21:49   to bring all the windows back in,

01:21:51   and then drop that file onto something I'm working on,

01:21:54   onto a window of an app or whatever.

01:21:55   - Marco, you're showing your keyboard preferences here,

01:21:59   because F11 isn't what you're describing.

01:22:02   It's volume down.

01:22:03   - It is when you're using a non-Apple keyboard.

01:22:04   - Yes, but for everyone else in the world

01:22:07   that uses a Mac, it's volume down.

01:22:09   I understand what you're going for,

01:22:10   but your preference for keyboards is coming through here.

01:22:14   - Yeah, well anyway, so yeah, so basically,

01:22:17   that's the kind of like the basics that I like to do,

01:22:20   but whether you use all this stuff,

01:22:22   like the mission control and all that stuff,

01:22:25   It's really personal preference, and again,

01:22:27   because of the history of Mac OS

01:22:30   and the jumbled design leadership it has had over time

01:22:33   and the very different targets it has tried

01:22:35   to attract people from over time,

01:22:37   it kind of offers all of these things.

01:22:40   And now we're even gonna have Stage Manager

01:22:42   if it ships in Ventura, and that's its own whole other thing

01:22:47   that frankly I don't think is working very well so far.

01:22:51   But that's its own thing.

01:22:53   Try it out, see what works for you.

01:22:54   If you ask any two Mac users,

01:22:56   you're gonna get two different answers

01:22:58   because there are so many methods

01:22:59   and Mac users are largely,

01:23:01   at least we used to be power users.

01:23:04   And so everyone has their own certain workflows

01:23:07   and quirks and habits and preferences

01:23:09   and they're all gonna be a little bit different

01:23:11   'cause there are so many different ways to do it.

01:23:14   - All right, I don't think either of you

01:23:17   is necessarily wrong,

01:23:17   but I think you've gone directly into the deep end

01:23:20   and I think we need to back up a bit.

01:23:23   So coming from Windows, I have used Linux,

01:23:26   but it's been, oof, it's been a long time.

01:23:29   Coming from Windows, I think the most startling thing

01:23:32   about using the Mac is what you had made brief mention

01:23:37   of earlier, Marco, is that you can have an application

01:23:40   that is running even though it does not have

01:23:43   not a single window open.

01:23:45   This is very different than Microsoft Windows,

01:23:47   or at least the last I used it 10 years ago,

01:23:50   where if you close the final window of Outlook

01:23:52   for the sake of discussion,

01:23:54   you're suddenly not gonna get any new email.

01:23:56   Again, this may not be true anymore, it doesn't matter,

01:23:57   but that's the way it used to be.

01:23:59   If you close the last Outlook window,

01:24:00   you're not getting email anymore.

01:24:01   If you just close, not even necessarily hide,

01:24:04   close the last mail window,

01:24:07   the mail app is still open,

01:24:10   and this isn't universally true,

01:24:12   which has gotten even squishier over time,

01:24:14   but generally speaking, that's true.

01:24:15   If you close the last window,

01:24:17   that does not necessarily mean that the app is quit.

01:24:19   The app could still be running,

01:24:20   and mail is a quintessential example of this,

01:24:22   Safari if you don't have any tabs open for example, they're still running. So what I

01:24:28   would say, and I think what Marco got right, is get used to the keyboard because the keyboard

01:24:34   is your friend for doing windowing things on macOS. You don't have to do it, you don't

01:24:38   have to touch the keyboard at all, but it is your friend. So when you're done looking

01:24:44   at something, Command+W closes that thing, be it a tab or a window. Generally speaking,

01:24:50   You're not quitting the app, usually, even if you close the last window, you're just

01:24:55   closing that window.

01:24:56   So as an example, if I'm looking at my mail using the standard macOS Mail app, after I'm

01:25:02   done reading and responding to mail, I Command+W.

01:25:05   That closes mail, but it does not quit mail.

01:25:08   It leaves it running to get new mail if new mail comes in.

01:25:12   If I want to play ignorant and don't want to get new mail, then I Command+Q for quit,

01:25:18   that will quit mail such that I don't receive new mail.

01:25:22   So the whole close versus quit thing, close being Command-W, quit being Command-Q,

01:25:28   that is something to get used to. And similarly, if you look at the stoplights in the upper left,

01:25:32   the red stoplight is not quit, it is close.

01:25:35   So you are closing an entire window. That maybe that is a window with a bunch of tabs in it,

01:25:41   maybe it's just a single window like in mail, but you're closing it, you're not quitting it.

01:25:44   And there is an option buried somewhere in system preferences, I forget where, that you can have like little light bulbs that show

01:25:51   under the app icon in the dock to indicate what is actually running, which is the things that have a light bulb.

01:25:57   They aren't light bulbs anymore. They used to be.

01:25:59   Well, whatever they are.

01:25:59   Now they're just dots.

01:26:01   You're right, you're right. But now I'm showing my age.

01:26:03   Yeah, and also Mac OS lies about that. It's way more complicated than you think it is.

01:26:07   You're right, you're right. But I'm trying to do it. I'm trying to ease into the shallow end here.

01:26:11   - Yeah, the problem with what we're saying here

01:26:13   is everything that Casey has just said

01:26:16   has a bunch of asterisks on it now,

01:26:18   again, through the course of history

01:26:19   and different goals and different efforts.

01:26:21   - You're right, you're absolutely right.

01:26:22   - But you're right, overall.

01:26:23   Your overall theme is right, but it is,

01:26:25   I think it's part of the reason,

01:26:26   it's a little bit frustrating that the Mac

01:26:29   is not as simple as it once was,

01:26:32   because there have been all these different ideas

01:26:34   and directions and then band-aids over bad designs

01:26:37   over time. (laughs)

01:26:39   - I mean, but the thing is,

01:26:40   First of all, Casey, you're going off on a tangent here,

01:26:42   which is basically about process management

01:26:44   versus window management.

01:26:45   And I see how they're somewhat related.

01:26:46   - Well, they're interrelated.

01:26:47   - Kind of, but detecting the details that we know about

01:26:52   for like, you know, I think I had a big paragraph on it

01:26:55   in one of my iOS 10 reviews that basically you can have

01:26:57   applications with no windows that are running,

01:26:59   applications with windows that aren't running,

01:27:01   applications with a dot under it

01:27:02   in the doc that aren't running,

01:27:03   applications without appearing in the doc that are running.

01:27:05   Like every combination of things

01:27:07   that you think shouldn't be possible are possible.

01:27:09   But that's just what we know from a technical perspective.

01:27:12   What's important is the user model, the mental model.

01:27:15   You're not supposed to know that an application,

01:27:17   the doc that has a dot under it

01:27:18   might not actually be running

01:27:20   because the OS is working to provide the illusion

01:27:23   that if it's got a dot, it's running

01:27:25   and it does everything it can to make that illusion true.

01:27:28   So for example, if the OS has quit an app

01:27:31   but left the dot under it in the doc,

01:27:33   it did that because the app supports

01:27:35   whatever the hell the thing is called.

01:27:36   But when you click it again, behind the scenes,

01:27:39   it relaunches it for you and lets it auto restore the state.

01:27:42   So to you, it just looks like it just brought that app

01:27:44   to the front, which is what it would do if it was running,

01:27:46   but it didn't actually relaunched it, right?

01:27:49   And by the same token, sometimes when you quit an app,

01:27:52   the OS has the option to go,

01:27:53   yeah, I'm not actually gonna quit it.

01:27:55   I'm actually gonna keep it running.

01:27:56   So if you quit an app and the dot disappears

01:27:58   from running the dock, and then you click that icon

01:28:01   on the dock again, you're like,

01:28:02   wow, that launched really fast, you know why?

01:28:03   'Cause the OS didn't freaking quit it.

01:28:05   And that only happens in cases where the application

01:28:08   supports whatever API that Apple introduced

01:28:10   in Mac OS 10.7 point, you know like,

01:28:12   read my Mac OS 10 reviews to see all this insanity.

01:28:15   I'm not sure how much of it is still in play,

01:28:16   but the point is, those details don't matter

01:28:18   because if that happens behind the scenes,

01:28:21   it's meant to provide the illusion that the model is,

01:28:24   dot means running, no dot means not running.

01:28:26   And what does running mean versus not running mean?

01:28:28   Well running means that if you bring it to the front,

01:28:31   it looks like it did when you saw it before,

01:28:33   like it preserves state in the window,

01:28:34   it remembers your selection or whatever.

01:28:36   and for apps to correctly support those APIs,

01:28:38   that's what it's supposed to do.

01:28:40   So you shouldn't be able to tell

01:28:42   that it's not running and it relaunched,

01:28:45   because from your perspective,

01:28:46   it looks exactly the same as if it already was running.

01:28:48   How successful are individual applications

01:28:51   to those APIs in achieving that?

01:28:53   Debatable, right?

01:28:54   But that's the goal of those APIs.

01:28:55   I think what people need to understand is,

01:28:58   what is the supposed mental model?

01:29:00   What is the abstraction?

01:29:01   How is the OS trying to tell me that it works?

01:29:04   And then there's all the cases where that abstraction

01:29:07   falls apart.

01:29:07   It's like, oh, it kind of seems like that app wasn't running,

01:29:11   because even though it had the dot under it,

01:29:13   when I clicked on it and I saw the window again,

01:29:15   it didn't look like I last left it.

01:29:16   Why is that?

01:29:17   Oh, actually, it relaunched, and that app

01:29:19   doesn't support state restoration

01:29:20   for that one particular thing, and blah, blah, blah.

01:29:22   It gets super complicated really fast.

01:29:24   But it's the same thing on iOS, where

01:29:27   we complain that people are going to the application

01:29:29   switcher and flicking up what are essentially

01:29:31   images of applications that haven't

01:29:33   been running for three weeks.

01:29:34   'cause they think they're quote unquote quitting the apps.

01:29:37   It provides the illusion that these are all the apps

01:29:39   that are running, but they're not all running.

01:29:41   Like there's 500 pictures there.

01:29:43   How could they all be running?

01:29:44   They're not.

01:29:45   It's just literally an image of what that thing looked like

01:29:47   the last time it was running.

01:29:49   And so that's the illusion it's trying to provide,

01:29:52   but that illusion is not true and that only matters

01:29:54   when you care about the technical nuances

01:29:56   or when you become an obsessive force quitter

01:29:59   because you think you're doing something

01:30:00   and all you're really doing is removing a bunch of images,

01:30:02   which in itself may be a goal that you want to achieve,

01:30:04   So go for it, but anyway,

01:30:05   I don't wanna get into that debate again.

01:30:07   So I think worrying about the nuances here

01:30:11   are not as important as just getting

01:30:12   what the supposed mental model is.

01:30:13   Because if you get the supposed mental model

01:30:15   that you just described, Casey,

01:30:18   then it's easier to explain the exceptions.

01:30:21   And unfortunately, as you both noted,

01:30:23   one of the exceptions is there are

01:30:25   a certain class of application

01:30:26   that when you close their last window, they quit themselves.

01:30:29   How do I know what those applications are?

01:30:31   And why do they do that?

01:30:32   There's a rationale, but really it's kind of like,

01:30:36   oh, these are the exceptions and kind of here's why.

01:30:38   And it's not satisfying to hear the explanation,

01:30:41   but eventually you just learn the ones that do that.

01:30:44   I mean, it makes some sense for like calculator

01:30:46   'cause it's just got one window.

01:30:47   Oh, and you close it.

01:30:48   It used to be a desk accessory.

01:30:49   What's a desk accessory?

01:30:50   We got to go into super old man mode to learn about that.

01:30:52   But like, there are reasons,

01:30:54   but mostly they're not super satisfying,

01:30:56   but there is a mental consistency.

01:31:00   You can say, well, if it's just one window,

01:31:02   Like why should I have to quit calculator?

01:31:03   When I close calculator with the red button,

01:31:06   just make the whole calculator app quit,

01:31:08   and lo and behold it does.

01:31:09   And that makes sense to people and they understand it.

01:31:11   But that is an exception to the general mental model

01:31:13   of when you close the last word window, word doesn't quit.

01:31:16   But then there was the whole thing where Apple wanted

01:31:17   every app to quit every time you closed the last window

01:31:19   because it wasn't running anymore,

01:31:20   so they made text edit do it, they made preview do it,

01:31:22   and it drives me bananas, right?

01:31:24   But you can have those discussions,

01:31:25   but I feel like those are all kind of like

01:31:27   things that are exceptions from the norm.

01:31:29   But you do have to understand the norm first.

01:31:31   And that does tie into winner management a little bit

01:31:34   and that you're like, where did my windows go?

01:31:35   Where did my application go?

01:31:36   Where does this doc do and stuff like that?

01:31:39   But, you know, at this point, as you both noted,

01:31:43   since Mac users kind of do their own thing,

01:31:46   like there are so many different options,

01:31:48   someone out there uses every one of these features.

01:31:51   Probably no one uses all of them,

01:31:52   but everybody uses their own little slice.

01:31:54   So if you were to remove one of those slices,

01:31:56   some subset of people would be sad,

01:31:58   which is kind of how you end up with the mishmash

01:32:00   we have now where there's every feature

01:32:01   that they've ever thought of adding.

01:32:03   Actually, I minus the old version of Spaces,

01:32:05   which I know a lot of people liked, but then went away.

01:32:07   The one where it used to be like in a 2D grid.

01:32:08   Do you remember that?

01:32:09   - I don't, no.

01:32:10   - Spaces used to be like up, down, left, right,

01:32:12   instead of just being horizontal thing.

01:32:14   And the people who like that were probably sad

01:32:16   when it went away.

01:32:16   But not to say that Apple won't get rid of them eventually,

01:32:18   but for now, part of the reason there's a million features

01:32:21   is because someone somewhere uses all of them.

01:32:22   So when you're trying to decide how you wanna use Windows,

01:32:27   Keep in mind that if you are unlucky,

01:32:30   the way you decide to manage Windows

01:32:32   may go away in 10 years or something.

01:32:33   But hey, that's technology for you.

01:32:35   That's true of any OS on any system.

01:32:38   Just think about what your car is going to look like in 10 years.

01:32:41   So be aware of that.

01:32:43   But the question here of can you point to me

01:32:45   like something I can read that tells me how I should do

01:32:48   window management, that doesn't exist.

01:32:49   Because there's too much diversity.

01:32:51   There are too many different ways to do it.

01:32:53   If I had to categorize the major ways,

01:32:54   I would say there are, there's one major one,

01:32:58   which is people on laptops with small screens,

01:33:00   they full screen things 'cause the screen space is small

01:33:02   and they use a three finger swipe on a track peg

01:33:04   'cause I think a lot of people find that pleasing

01:33:06   to flick between them.

01:33:07   That is one absolutely very big major mode of operation.

01:33:12   Full screen, almost everything,

01:33:14   swipe back and forth with three fingers.

01:33:15   I see tons of people doing it on laptops.

01:33:18   My children do it on laptops

01:33:19   and I did not train them to do it.

01:33:21   This is the thing that lots of people derive

01:33:24   of their own accord having seen the features.

01:33:25   I never showed them this.

01:33:27   I never explained these features.

01:33:28   They find them on their own and they find them pleasing

01:33:30   and they say, that's how I'm gonna do things.

01:33:32   So that's one.

01:33:33   Another one, the one that I'm familiar with

01:33:36   is probably exceedingly rare at this point,

01:33:38   but it is the old school one

01:33:40   where you have individual windows that you arrange yourself.

01:33:42   Almost nobody does that, but it is like the OG version

01:33:45   because old versions of macOS had no tools

01:33:48   to do anything else.

01:33:49   There was no expose, there was no dock,

01:33:52   there was no window snapping,

01:33:53   there was no nothing, there wasn't even third party tools.

01:33:56   So that is a super OG way to do it,

01:33:58   but the people who do that are old like me

01:34:00   and we're all gonna die at then.

01:34:02   You know, no one will know how to manage Windows anymore.

01:34:04   And if there's a third way that I'm not thinking of,

01:34:06   I'm not sure what it would be,

01:34:08   but it's probably some, probably more like what Marco does,

01:34:10   because if you have a giant monitor,

01:34:12   like full screen stuff, it's just super dumb.

01:34:14   Not that people don't do it, but it's super, super dumb,

01:34:16   because you cannot read lines of text that are that long,

01:34:19   and most web pages don't expand to that size anyway.

01:34:22   Web pages look hilarious when you maximize them

01:34:24   on a big screen these days,

01:34:25   'cause now they're all designed for mobile even,

01:34:27   so it's even worse than it used to be.

01:34:29   - Yeah, so there probably is some hybrid version in there.

01:34:33   My quick tips would be,

01:34:35   this is Marco's thing of hiding the desktop.

01:34:36   I mentioned this on several shows,

01:34:37   I think it's the annual time for me to bring this up again.

01:34:40   Make a hot corner for show desktop.

01:34:42   So then you can jam your cursor into the corner,

01:34:44   grab a file from the desktop,

01:34:45   jam your cursor into the corner again,

01:34:47   while still holding the file to have everything come back.

01:34:49   I find that faster than hitting

01:34:50   whatever the hell the keyboard,

01:34:51   I literally don't even know the keyboard key that does this

01:34:54   'cause I use the hot corners.

01:34:55   Show desktop hot corner.

01:34:57   Do not configure this on someone's computer

01:35:00   that you don't use 'cause they will inevitably

01:35:02   accidentally hit that corner and have no idea

01:35:03   what happened and they will yell at you.

01:35:05   But on your own computer where you understand

01:35:07   how hot corners work, so awesome.

01:35:09   That's my one tip.

01:35:11   The other one, again, I'm not a keyboard person.

01:35:13   Hiding, hiding is your friend.

01:35:15   In almost every scenario, especially if you use

01:35:18   my little Mac utility thing, but in almost every scenario,

01:35:21   If you option click away from a window,

01:35:24   the window you were previously in will hide as you leave it.

01:35:27   That is a Mac convention from back in the day.

01:35:29   Lots of like, do an operation, but hold down option.

01:35:33   As you leave, the thing you're leaving

01:35:35   or the app you're leaving or whatever will hide itself

01:35:37   as you depart because you held down option.

01:35:39   That is a fast way to combine two operations,

01:35:42   which is I want to go someplace different.

01:35:44   And by the way, the place where I was,

01:35:45   I want it to disappear.

01:35:46   - I'm done with this guy.

01:35:48   - Yeah, it's not being closed.

01:35:50   it's not being quit, you're just hiding it.

01:35:53   That concept of hiding windows, they're still open,

01:35:55   they're still there, but you just can't see them

01:35:58   is essential and there's lots of ways to do that,

01:36:00   but for again, maybe being an old school Mac user,

01:36:02   using the option key to option click away from something

01:36:05   is a big one.

01:36:06   And the final one I wanna give you is,

01:36:07   you can interact with windows

01:36:09   when they are not the front most window.

01:36:11   That is more of a fancy advanced thing,

01:36:13   but if you want to play with that,

01:36:14   especially if you were an actual window arranger,

01:36:16   it can come in handy.

01:36:17   If you hold down the command key

01:36:18   and grab a window in the background,

01:36:20   you can move it and do stuff to it

01:36:22   and not bring it to the front.

01:36:23   Usually you can also interact with it.

01:36:25   Like if a finder window is in the background,

01:36:27   you wanna collapse or expand a folder in a list view,

01:36:30   you can do that without bringing the window to the front

01:36:32   by holding down the command key.

01:36:33   Obviously my mode of using my Mac is one hand on the mouse,

01:36:37   one hand on the keyboard.

01:36:38   My hand that's on the keyboard is using modifiers,

01:36:40   like option and command and whatever

01:36:42   when I click through things.

01:36:43   It tends not to be hitting command H or stuff like that,

01:36:46   but it could if I wanted to.

01:36:47   But like, those are my tips to see if that way

01:36:50   of operation works for you.

01:36:52   But if you're just looking for the path of least resistance

01:36:54   and you have a laptop, try full screening everything

01:36:57   and 33ing or swiping between it.

01:36:58   I think it's massively inefficient

01:36:59   and it grinds my teeth every time I see somebody do it,

01:37:01   but people love it.

01:37:02   So maybe you'll love it too, give it a try.

01:37:05   - Philip, I'm so sorry for these piss poor answers.

01:37:07   And I was trying to give you an easy solution

01:37:10   and easy walkthrough and I was interrupted

01:37:12   and now I give up.

01:37:13   So let's move on.

01:37:14   - 'Cause you got too tight on the process management.

01:37:16   - Oh my God.

01:37:18   Dan Lear writes, "You're all independent,"

01:37:20   I'm so mad at you, "You're all independent app developers

01:37:22   "now with no employer-mandated processes or tools.

01:37:25   "How do you plan and track your app work?

01:37:27   "I use simple checklists for years

01:37:28   "and move to GitHub issues, milestones, and PRs.

01:37:30   "What works for you folks?

01:37:32   "For me, GitHub issues, milestones, and PRs.

01:37:33   "Good talk."

01:37:34   Marco.

01:37:36   - I have a notes document.

01:37:37   - Oh my God, this is the most Marco answer ever.

01:37:39   You're useless, John.

01:37:40   - No, 'cause I used to, I mean, a while ago,

01:37:43   I tried using FogBugz.

01:37:45   I tried using Bugzilla.

01:37:47   Like I tried, I mean, over the years,

01:37:49   like I've done a few things that like,

01:37:51   oh, quote everyone does.

01:37:52   I never went to GitHub issues because by the time

01:37:55   that really was a thing, I was just working for myself

01:37:59   and for the most part and I just moved to like,

01:38:02   you know, text files or I tried doing it in OmniFocus,

01:38:06   I tried doing it in things, I did it in Taskpaper

01:38:09   for a while, which is just a kind of a fancy text file

01:38:12   editor and now I just do it in Apple Notes.

01:38:15   And it's, for my purposes, it's fine.

01:38:17   The limitation on how much I can get done

01:38:20   and on how good my app can be and on what features I make

01:38:23   and on what bugs I fix is not how I'm tracking them.

01:38:26   I have many other limitations that bottleneck

01:38:29   all of those factors, but my task management system

01:38:33   is nowhere near the top of that list.

01:38:36   - John.

01:38:38   - Last show, it kind of arises from the question

01:38:39   we talked about last show, and last show I said

01:38:41   how I was relieved as an independent developer

01:38:45   not to have to do all of the many complicated things

01:38:48   and systems having to do with issue tracking and branching

01:38:51   and everything like that.

01:38:52   In my private life, I don't have to do that, so I don't.

01:38:57   And so my answer is, I have a notes document.

01:39:00   (laughing)

01:39:01   It's literally an Apple Notes.

01:39:03   - It's a good system for one person.

01:39:07   - I mean, I don't need anything more than that.

01:39:09   It's not even a big notes document.

01:39:10   - No, mine is pretty short.

01:39:13   Mine's like maybe 20, 30 lines,

01:39:15   'cause I can tell, a long time ago,

01:39:19   I forget where exactly or when exactly this was,

01:39:22   but a long time ago, the Basecamp people,

01:39:24   back when it was called 37 Signals,

01:39:26   made a blog post about how they deal with feature requests.

01:39:29   Forgive me if I'm mis-paraphrasing it,

01:39:32   but the gist of it was basically,

01:39:33   we don't really keep track of them in a formal way

01:39:36   because things that are really worth doing,

01:39:39   you're gonna just keep hearing about

01:39:40   over and over again from people,

01:39:41   and so you won't need to be writing them down,

01:39:42   and you'll just keep hearing it.

01:39:43   That's how I treat most feature requests and goals,

01:39:47   like long-term goals for the app.

01:39:49   If something is worth doing,

01:39:51   like I don't have the time or the will, frankly,

01:39:54   to do everything people ask for

01:39:55   because some of the people ask for it

01:39:57   would be a terrible idea

01:39:58   or isn't really possible to do well or things like that.

01:40:00   But things that are good ideas,

01:40:02   they keep coming up over and over again.

01:40:04   So yeah, I have some general goals and everything,

01:40:06   but I don't need to be writing down every single thing.

01:40:09   Bugs that happen,

01:40:10   If it's like some obscure thing I can't get to right now,

01:40:12   I'll write it down, sure.

01:40:14   But if it's something I can just fix now,

01:40:16   I'll just fix it now.

01:40:18   For the most part, anything that I do

01:40:20   that's like longer term planning than a month or two,

01:40:25   it doesn't end up panning out in a way

01:40:27   that makes me go to those plans.

01:40:28   So for instance, like if I say right now,

01:40:30   you know what, next spring,

01:40:33   I wanna redo the sync engine in CloudKit.

01:40:35   God, would I love to do that.

01:40:36   But anyway, maybe I might do it sooner than that.

01:40:39   But, 'cause server stuff's going great, guys.

01:40:43   So anyway, next spring, I wanna do this.

01:40:46   Okay, well, what happens between now and next spring?

01:40:50   Well, we have six months of the environment

01:40:53   that you're operating in changing.

01:40:56   I had to spend a good amount of the last few days

01:41:00   figuring out server-side crawling errors

01:41:02   that end up being, Cloudflare is blocking me

01:41:06   in a lot of conditions.

01:41:07   And you know who hosts a bunch of websites

01:41:09   behind their infrastructure?

01:41:11   Cloudflare, including, by the way, our website and my website.

01:41:15   Cool.

01:41:16   The entire landscape, I just had to do in the beta channel,

01:41:20   I had to do a feature where I'm kind of doing

01:41:22   client-side crawling sometimes.

01:41:24   And if Cloudflare keeps giving me trouble with my crawling

01:41:28   requests, then I'm going to have to implement client-side

01:41:32   crawling for certain things.

01:41:34   And that is just a huge wrench in my plans.

01:41:37   And so, right now, something is basically on fire

01:41:41   that I have to go deal with.

01:41:42   That's gonna take me a certain amount of time.

01:41:44   And then when I put that fire out,

01:41:46   maybe something else happens.

01:41:47   Maybe Apple releases a put-in-put to iOS

01:41:49   that breaks my audio handling

01:41:50   and I have to do something different.

01:41:51   Or maybe they release a brand new HomePod this fall

01:41:56   that uses AirPlay 3 and I have to,

01:42:00   suddenly there's a pretty big reason for me

01:42:02   to update something else to use that.

01:42:04   or just something else might change between now

01:42:08   and the spring when I plan to have

01:42:10   this other milestone thing done.

01:42:12   Well, okay, so eventually, all these fires,

01:42:15   eventually I've put them out and I'm ready

01:42:17   to go look at my to-do list and I see this thing

01:42:20   that I said I wanted to do for the version

01:42:23   that was gonna come out by that point months ago.

01:42:27   Now, I don't even wanna do that anymore

01:42:29   because that whole idea was irrelevant

01:42:31   and now they moved on to Server Kit

01:42:34   and now I need to go run Server Kit

01:42:35   or run Swift on the server or whatever.

01:42:38   So planning very far ahead for somebody like me

01:42:41   who's just one person working on an app

01:42:43   and kind of doing what I want to it

01:42:44   and not doing what I don't want to it,

01:42:47   any kind of very structured, longer term planning

01:42:51   tends to just not happen over time.

01:42:53   Or by the time the time comes that you have to do XYZ,

01:42:57   you look at it and you're like,

01:42:58   this actually, this is what I wanted six months ago,

01:43:01   but this doesn't make sense for me now,

01:43:03   or my opinion is different, or my priorities are different,

01:43:06   or the environment is different, or something.

01:43:07   So that's why it's a short notes document.

01:43:11   - Let me just state for the record

01:43:12   that while Marco has fully admitted he is unemployable

01:43:17   and has for many years, apparently John is too.

01:43:20   I, for one, still believe in process and rules

01:43:23   and things like that.

01:43:24   I can still have a job.

01:43:26   John and Marco are useless.

01:43:27   - I believe in it and I used it for years.

01:43:30   I mean, the last thing I used before I left my job was Jira.

01:43:32   Like, I know the tool.

01:43:33   - Oh, God.

01:43:34   - I'm very familiar.

01:43:35   - That's a bad thing.

01:43:36   - I'm very, very familiar with all the tools

01:43:38   and the way it's done, but it is a relief to me

01:43:41   not to have to use them.

01:43:42   So I think, and I have to say it also helps

01:43:45   that my apps are very small and simple.

01:43:46   So there's like, it's a notes document.

01:43:49   The bugs go there when I have a bug report

01:43:52   and there are very few of those

01:43:53   'cause it's not a complicated application.

01:43:54   My feature requests that people send me

01:43:56   go into the notes document and my own things

01:43:58   that I want to do go into the notes document.

01:43:59   It's prioritized with the important stuff at the top.

01:44:02   That's my system.

01:44:04   It's a great system.

01:44:06   - I hate this.

01:44:07   David Komei writes, "Given Jon is a new TV

01:44:09   "and clearly has a number of input sources connected,

01:44:11   "what advice beyond his past blog posts

01:44:13   "would he suggest in 2022 about settings

01:44:15   "for color, et cetera?

01:44:16   "In particular, we have an Apple TV 4K

01:44:18   "and are curious about the match content options

01:44:22   "in the late tvOS and what's best to be set or unset

01:44:25   "on both ends of the HDMI cable?"

01:44:27   And this, to my eyes anyway, relates to a different question

01:44:31   but very similar, from Jeff Nockbar, who writes,

01:44:34   "I'm interested in John's thoughts about color calibration,

01:44:37   "especially in light of his new TV.

01:44:39   "Does he just play with color picture settings

01:44:41   "to find what he likes?

01:44:41   "Does he believe in professional color calibration,

01:44:43   "the equipment to measure color accuracy in that whole world?

01:44:46   "Does QD OLED differ from other technologies

01:44:48   "in terms of calibration needs?

01:44:49   "Are they more accurate?"

01:44:50   Tell us, John, what's the story?

01:44:53   - So, the answer was simpler

01:44:54   back before I had my fancy new TV,

01:44:56   because my old TV was standard definition,

01:44:59   and there were available tools,

01:45:00   even some of them on the App Store that you could use

01:45:02   to calibrate your standard definition.

01:45:05   - Whoa, slow down.

01:45:06   It was 1080, wasn't it?

01:45:08   - Yeah.

01:45:09   - Okay, that's not standard. - Not standard, you're right.

01:45:10   So it's not standard, sorry.

01:45:11   Non-4K, but SDR.

01:45:13   - Yeah, so high def SDR, not 4K.

01:45:18   God, I'm making it worse now.

01:45:19   Now I'm new to, I'm making it worse.

01:45:20   - Standard dynamic range, not high dynamic range,

01:45:24   and standard HD, not UHD.

01:45:27   - Right, yes, that. - A non-4K TV.

01:45:28   - Yes, that.

01:45:29   - The most important thing I think is that it wasn't HDR,

01:45:33   because the calibration, the THX tune-up calibration tool,

01:45:37   which is so far out of date,

01:45:38   I'm amazingly run on modern devices,

01:45:41   but it would let you calibrate your non-HDR television.

01:45:46   The 4K thing is less of an issue,

01:45:47   but especially when you're doing color stuff,

01:45:50   and it was more necessary back in the day

01:45:52   because it wasn't as common as it is now

01:45:56   to get a television that would have

01:45:58   some kind of accurate color preset.

01:46:00   Now, filmmaker mode, we've talked about in the past,

01:46:03   it's all caps.

01:46:04   Filmmaker mode is a thing that the industry agreed upon

01:46:07   to have one preset on your television

01:46:09   that tries to actually be accurate.

01:46:12   If your television has filmmaker mode, use it,

01:46:15   because that is the mode that is saying,

01:46:17   don't mess with the picture,

01:46:18   show it to the best of your ability

01:46:20   the way it is supposed to be, right?

01:46:22   My problem with my new setup is,

01:46:24   I am unaware of any economically,

01:46:27   of any inexpensive way to calibrate my fancy new TV.

01:46:31   I looked into this and there's CalMAN software

01:46:33   and there's hardware devices you can buy

01:46:35   and yes, you can use that to calibrate your fancy new TV

01:46:39   but that equipment costs so much money.

01:46:40   It's priced for professional calibrators.

01:46:43   I think it might cost more than my television

01:46:46   to get all that stuff and it's like, no, no thanks.

01:46:49   If you care about calibration that much,

01:46:50   you can hire someone to do it but they're expensive

01:46:53   and I've never done that so I have no idea

01:46:54   how to find a good one.

01:46:56   But the good news is that if you buy a fancy-ish TV

01:46:59   from like towards the higher end,

01:47:01   most of them come with one or more presets

01:47:05   that out of the box will be,

01:47:06   kind of like Apple's monitors are calibrated at the factory

01:47:08   and out of the box have good calibration,

01:47:11   there will be one or two presets on your television

01:47:13   that have pretty good calibration.

01:47:16   It's one of the tests that the TV reviewers do.

01:47:18   They say out of the box,

01:47:19   here's how this television looked in terms of accuracy.

01:47:23   And some of them out of the box

01:47:24   are really, really, really accurate.

01:47:27   They will then go on and professionally calibrate it

01:47:29   with their thousands of dollars worth of tools.

01:47:31   And you can see the difference between the out of the box

01:47:33   filmmaker mode calibration and what they did

01:47:36   to correct the calibration.

01:47:37   It's better after they calibrated,

01:47:39   but the differences are often not perceptible, right?

01:47:42   And so that lets you know that the best strategy is

01:47:47   when you get your television, put it in filmmaker mode,

01:47:49   or if you have a Sony television

01:47:51   and they don't support filmmaker mode,

01:47:52   put it in the custom preset.

01:47:54   I know the names are stupid, but at least on my television,

01:47:56   there's a bunch of presets,

01:47:57   all of which you want to avoid forever and ever,

01:47:59   'cause they screw with the picture.

01:48:01   The one you want is what they call custom.

01:48:03   And Jeff's question of like,

01:48:06   do you just play with the settings

01:48:07   until they look like you like?

01:48:08   No, do not do that, because you have no way to know.

01:48:11   Like if you're not calibrating with like a known input source

01:48:14   it's not like you can put in your favorite movie

01:48:16   and make adjustments until it looks pleasing to you,

01:48:17   because you don't know what that picture

01:48:20   is supposed to look like.

01:48:21   What things are overexposed?

01:48:22   What things are underexposed?

01:48:23   What should I be able to see in the shadows?

01:48:25   How light should the entire image be?

01:48:26   You don't know the answers to that question

01:48:28   'cause you have no source of reference.

01:48:30   You don't have a $30,000 reference monitor

01:48:32   that you can compare it to with your eyeballs,

01:48:34   and you don't have any equipment

01:48:35   that knows what it's supposed to look like.

01:48:36   That's what that calibration software and hardware does.

01:48:38   It knows this should look like that based on this input.

01:48:41   It generates signals and images,

01:48:43   and then it measures them,

01:48:44   and it dials it in so it looks like that.

01:48:46   In fact, a lot of televisions,

01:48:47   it's a shame that equipment is so expensive

01:48:49   because most of the fancy new televisions

01:48:51   have an auto calibration mode where if you hook up that very expensive equipment to a

01:48:54   very expensive piece of software on your laptop, you just basically push a button and it will

01:48:59   calibrate itself over the course of a very long period of time.

01:49:02   You don't even need a human calibrator to hand tweak everything.

01:49:05   And if you hire a human calibrator, they will just probably use your television's auto calibration

01:49:09   mode that works with the Calman software and the whatever image thing they stick to your

01:49:14   TV.

01:49:15   But I mean, I'm not doing that because the equipment is too expensive and I'm also not

01:49:20   even willing to pay for someone to calibrate because I don't know anyone reputable and

01:49:24   if I was going to pay the amount of money that that would cost to do I would want it

01:49:27   to be someone who is reputable.

01:49:29   So my advice is use filmmaker mode or if you don't have it and you have a Sony television

01:49:33   use the custom preset and you're probably ahead of the game and then you know it within

01:49:39   starting from there if you really want to turn on motion smoothing or do other things

01:49:44   that you find pleasing, feel free to screw up the picture in a way that you want.

01:49:51   Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Collide, and Linode. And thanks to our members

01:49:57   who support us directly. You can join atp.fm/join. We will talk to you next week.

01:50:03   [Music]

01:50:04   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

01:50:12   Accidental.

01:50:13   So it was accidental

01:50:16   John didn't do any research

01:50:18   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him

01:50:21   Cause it was accidental

01:50:24   It was accidental

01:50:27   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:50:32   And if you're into Twitter

01:50:35   You can follow them

01:50:37   @CASEYLISS

01:50:41   ♪ So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O ♪

01:50:44   ♪ A-R-M ♪

01:50:46   ♪ Auntie Marco Armin ♪

01:50:48   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:50:51   ♪ USA, Syracuse ♪

01:50:53   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:50:54   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:50:56   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:50:58   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:51:00   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:51:01   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:51:03   ♪ So long ♪

01:51:06   - Rather than your rip off after showcase,

01:51:07   you should tell us the simple way

01:51:10   to manage your windows on the Mac because you're all annoyed

01:51:12   but you control the pace of the show.

01:51:14   You didn't need to move on to the next segment.

01:51:16   You could have then just given us your,

01:51:18   here's my simple answer to window management.

01:51:19   Now I'm dying to hear it because I don't think there is one.

01:51:22   - No, no, because you're gonna pick it apart

01:51:24   like you did earlier.

01:51:25   No, it's a secret.

01:51:27   - I didn't pick it up.

01:51:28   I was trying to guide you back to the path.

01:51:29   But anyway, what is your solution to window management?

01:51:33   It seems like you know one.

01:51:34   - No, I don't really.

01:51:35   It's just you two were so interested

01:51:38   talking about the asterisks while not talking about them and telling about the history while not telling about the history

01:51:43   They were totally muddying the waters for the person who is a self-professed novice and and good on you Philip for saying

01:51:49   Hey, I don't know what I'm talking about. Somebody help me apparently us three knuckleheads are not the people to help you

01:51:53   But at least one of us was trying

01:51:55   No, okay. So here's the thing all all snark aside. I think it's important

01:52:00   I understand what you're saying about the process management thing

01:52:03   And I understand that you're right that yes, that is more what I was talking about is more about process than than window

01:52:09   but to me coming from

01:52:11   Windows the operating system that was a real like see change to think of oh

01:52:16   I can close the mail window and still receive email

01:52:20   That was a very weird thing for me to grok and I think if you go way way back

01:52:24   We brought this up so I've brought this up several times on the show

01:52:27   There was that conversation that Marco and I had via Tumblr in, I don't know, like late 2007-2008, something like that,

01:52:34   where he was publicly convincing me to get a Mac and I was publicly calling him a fanboy who has too much money.

01:52:39   And look who was right about that one, because it was not me for the record. But anyways,

01:52:45   you know, I think one of these things that I discovered as I was learning how to use my poly book,

01:52:52   my polycarbonate MacBook,

01:52:54   was, "Oh, I can close the mail window

01:52:57   "and I can still receive mail."

01:52:58   And that very wildly changed my mental model

01:53:03   of how windows work.

01:53:05   Because just because a thing is closed

01:53:08   doesn't by necessity mean it is not running.

01:53:12   And so I think that's an important thing to understand.

01:53:16   And similarly for me, I don't really ever hide windows.

01:53:21   I'm not gonna sit here.

01:53:22   I will snark and say, "You're wrong."

01:53:24   But in all genuine, I don't actually think that that's wrong,

01:53:27   it's just not the way I do it.

01:53:28   Generally speaking, I will minimize,

01:53:30   and maybe that's not the rightest answer,

01:53:32   but that's what I do.

01:53:33   And if I don't minimize, I'll close.

01:53:35   So when I'm done with a mail window, I'll close it.

01:53:37   If I'm done with a browser window,

01:53:39   I will either minimize it if it has tabs

01:53:42   that I would like to remain open,

01:53:43   or if I'm on the last tab, I'll just close it.

01:53:46   And I think it's, again, it's important to understand

01:53:49   at least a little bit about the process behind this,

01:53:51   or the process management behind this.

01:53:52   And what I think Marco said at first,

01:53:54   and John, you reiterated, and you're both incredibly right.

01:53:57   Everything I'm saying has like 85 trillion asterisks.

01:54:01   We're in asterisk, double asterisk,

01:54:02   dagger, double dagger, triple dagger.

01:54:04   Like there's so many, wells, wah, mm, uh.

01:54:08   There's so many of those that you're absolutely right.

01:54:11   And as much as I'm giving you,

01:54:12   or I gave you a hard time during the show,

01:54:13   like you are right, but if we're just trying

01:54:15   to give a broad overview of window management,

01:54:18   I think we need a foundation from which to start,

01:54:20   and that's what I was trying to establish.

01:54:21   And so what I would say, other than understanding

01:54:24   the difference between closing and quitting,

01:54:27   I personally almost never use the stoplight

01:54:32   or whatever you call it in the upper left.

01:54:34   I will use it for minimizing, but like when I close

01:54:37   a window, I either Command + W or Command + Q.

01:54:41   Sometimes I'll minimize with Command + M,

01:54:43   not always, but sometimes.

01:54:44   And Alt + Tab or Command, oh, so I see now

01:54:48   I'm a Windows user again, Command + Tab.

01:54:51   When you do that, not only can you command tab

01:54:54   just one time and see this list,

01:54:55   but you can hit tab again and again and again

01:54:57   to keep going, which I think is on Windows as well.

01:55:00   And what I don't know, maybe it's on Windows now,

01:55:01   but it wasn't, I don't think, at the time,

01:55:04   is if you take your mouse and start wiggling

01:55:06   your mouse through there, you can control,

01:55:08   as long as you'll continue to hold command,

01:55:11   you can mouse your way to the icon you want.

01:55:14   And you can command tab over and over again,

01:55:17   or command shift tab to go backwards.

01:55:19   There's so much that you can do,

01:55:20   like I'm snarking a little bit, but I mean it.

01:55:23   Like there's so much you can do with the keyboard

01:55:26   in concert with the mouse.

01:55:27   And that's why I'm glad, Jon, you said that the way

01:55:29   you use your Mac is your left or whatever hand

01:55:31   on the keyboard, one hand on the mouse.

01:55:33   'Cause I completely agree that that's how I use the Mac.

01:55:37   I also would completely agree with you

01:55:39   that you should set up hot corners,

01:55:41   which is in the oh so logical place in system preferences,

01:55:44   desktop and screen saver.

01:55:46   And it's a little button at the bottom.

01:55:47   - Where the hell is it in Ventura?

01:55:48   Nobody knows, use the search.

01:55:50   - Nobody knows.

01:55:50   No, that's true, I didn't even think about Ventura.

01:55:52   It makes no sense where it is right now,

01:55:54   but you go into System Preferences,

01:55:56   Desktop and Screen Saver, bottom right is Hot Corners.

01:55:58   The way I happen to have it set up

01:56:01   is Mission Control in the upper left.

01:56:02   That's the thing where you see

01:56:05   all of the different windows you have open.

01:56:06   So if I slam my mouse into the upper left hand corner

01:56:09   of the screen, I will see like,

01:56:11   kind of sort of thumbnails of all my different windows.

01:56:13   - Is it all windows across all apps,

01:56:14   or all windows in the current app?

01:56:16   - All windows across all apps, it's Mission Control.

01:56:18   I forget what the other one is called. There's a name for it though. Application windows, maybe? I forget. I don't know.

01:56:23   But the idea is if I ever get lost in my own window situation,

01:56:27   I just hurl my mouse into the upper left-hand corner and suddenly I can see

01:56:32   every single window that is currently open. And I think that that would be very helpful for Philip.

01:56:37   Now, maybe it's not the upper left, maybe it's upper right, lower left doesn't matter.

01:56:40   But having a hot corner that is set to mission control, so you can slam your mouse into the corner,

01:56:45   whatever corner that may be and see everything that's open no matter how overlapped it was before I think that's very useful and very powerful a

01:56:52   quick tip on that

01:56:54   Unfortunately, there's an old asterisk double dagger things. There are windows and Mac OS that appear not to have an owning application

01:57:00   Like maybe you'll get like a crash dialog that gets popped up when you launch because BK agent has crashed again

01:57:07   Which is the thing that's happening to me. I think has to do with iBook store or they'll be like

01:57:12   The window that is copying something in the finder and you don't know it's a finder window

01:57:16   You just know you used to see a progress bar and you don't know where it is if you lose a window

01:57:19   Oh, that's true. That's true and you do and you you really just I mean it may be that one of those windows

01:57:24   That's hard to find the only application or maybe you just don't know the only application

01:57:28   You don't know that if you went to the finder if you clicked on finder in the dock and then click on the window menu

01:57:31   That you could find the copy if you just don't know that

01:57:33   That's when show me all the windows at the same time because what you're this is

01:57:38   The reason you'll be able to find

01:57:40   that little Finder progress bar window,

01:57:42   even if you have no idea that the Finder owns it,

01:57:44   because you don't know what the hell the Finder is,

01:57:45   because you came from Windows,

01:57:46   you do remember that it was skinny,

01:57:49   that it was like a window that was not very wide,

01:57:54   and it was kind of like not very tall either, right?

01:57:57   It was a skinny little window.

01:57:58   You remember what it looked like.

01:57:59   And when you minimize the windows and shows all the windows,

01:58:01   you'll be able to visually pick it out,

01:58:03   because there are very few other windows

01:58:04   that are that shape, like dimension-wise.

01:58:07   Again, it's not gonna be like to scale exactly,

01:58:09   but like you'll be able to pick it out.

01:58:11   So that is one of that, you know,

01:58:13   this may sound like Hazy's telling you

01:58:14   to do some fancy advanced user thing.

01:58:15   It's not, this is actually a great, I'm lost, help me,

01:58:19   I can't find something, press that.

01:58:21   It's like F3 on the keyboard or whatever the hell it is.

01:58:22   If you don't know, you don't even have a hot corner,

01:58:24   just show me everything.

01:58:25   Now, if you're like me,

01:58:26   that button would show you a thing

01:58:29   that would make both of these other people

01:58:31   run away screaming.

01:58:32   But even for me, I can find the stupid little, you know,

01:58:36   How is the, well I know it's archive utility,

01:58:38   but if I wanted to see the unzipping XIP of Xcode,

01:58:42   and I lost that window somehow,

01:58:43   and I forgot that it was archive utility,

01:58:45   which is a green icon in your dock,

01:58:47   even I can show all the windows at the same time

01:58:50   and find out the little skinny window I'm looking for.

01:58:52   - Right, so I would put mission control on a hot corner.

01:58:55   I'm glad you reminded me,

01:58:56   because I don't do this on the keyboard,

01:58:58   but yes, F3 on an Apple keyboard,

01:59:00   by default is the same exact thing.

01:59:02   - And we say F3, and it's like,

01:59:04   how am I ever gonna remember F3?

01:59:05   look down at your Apple keyboard

01:59:07   that came with your computer,

01:59:08   it looks like a bunch of little windows.

01:59:09   They put a little graphic on it.

01:59:10   This has changed over the years

01:59:12   and sometimes they've changed the OS

01:59:13   and it doesn't match your keys.

01:59:14   But if you have a modern Mac,

01:59:16   the little pictures that they put over the function keys

01:59:18   look like what they're supposed to be.

01:59:20   So the brightness keys have little sun pictures over them.

01:59:22   The F3 key has a bunch of little rectangles

01:59:24   that are supposed to look like windows.

01:59:25   So you don't have to memorize this.

01:59:26   Just literally look down at your keyboard

01:59:28   and look for the key that looks like

01:59:29   it has a bunch of windows on it.

01:59:31   - Yeah, the other thing I would say

01:59:32   while we're still talking about hot corners,

01:59:34   I forget which one of you said this.

01:59:35   think it was John, put a desktop hot corner somewhere. So to reiterate, let's

01:59:41   say you're copying a file. So you're in the Finder, you've clicked and dragged a

01:59:45   file, I don't care what file it is, and you're like, "Ah crap, I don't know, I just

01:59:49   want this to appear on my desktop, but I don't have an easy way to get there," or

01:59:52   whatever the case may be. Then you can drag your mouse all the way into

01:59:57   whatever that hot corner may be. For me it's upper right, it can be whatever.

01:59:59   suddenly all of those windows disappear, sort of, kind of.

02:00:04   They're swept off to the side,

02:00:06   and now you've got a mostly clean view of your desktop

02:00:08   where you can very easily just drop that file

02:00:11   right on your desktop.

02:00:13   - This is the same tip that I give every year.

02:00:15   I'll give it again.

02:00:15   If you grab, this combines the both of our tips

02:00:18   that run the Udacity KC, if you grab a file

02:00:20   and you want to drop it into a window

02:00:22   in a particular application, and you're like,

02:00:24   but it's not the desktop.

02:00:25   I've got the file, but now I want to go

02:00:26   to a particular Safari window.

02:00:28   How do I do that?

02:00:29   grab the file, while you're still grabbing the file

02:00:31   with your other hand that's on the keyboard,

02:00:33   hit Command + Tab, and you can either Command + Tab

02:00:35   over to the Safari, or you can just drag your mouse

02:00:37   with the file still in the cursor, right?

02:00:40   You can drag that onto Safari,

02:00:42   and hold it there for a second.

02:00:43   Safari will come to the front,

02:00:44   and then drag it onto the window within Safari that you want

02:00:47   because when you do that, all the Safari windows

02:00:49   will come to the front.

02:00:50   The moves like that that seem like they're complicated

02:00:53   will become set in nature once you realize

02:00:55   that you can do stuff in flight at the same time.

02:00:59   So grab the file and then you have options.

02:01:01   You can invoke the command tab switcher

02:01:03   while you've grabbed the file.

02:01:04   You can then drag the file over the application

02:01:07   that you want until it highlights

02:01:08   and then let go of the command key

02:01:10   and the application will come to the front

02:01:12   and then you can, you know.

02:01:12   Stuff like that seems like it's fancy,

02:01:14   but if you do it once or twice and it clicks with you,

02:01:16   kind of like a three finger swiping,

02:01:17   which seems like it's fancy,

02:01:18   but so many people do it for the first time

02:01:20   and that just burns into their brain

02:01:21   and it becomes second nature.

02:01:22   So try it and see if you like it.

02:01:24   - That's actually, I would say that that's one of the most,

02:01:26   one of the best things about switching to Mac

02:01:28   is when you think, I wonder if this would work,

02:01:32   and you just try something and it totally does work.

02:01:36   That's one of the greatest things.

02:01:37   When you first hit those moments,

02:01:39   now that I have this thing under my mouse

02:01:42   that I'm holding down, can I just move it over here

02:01:45   and then show desktop and it won't lose it?

02:01:47   And sure enough, it's like, bam, oh my god,

02:01:49   that just worked, it just did it.

02:01:51   Like that's the kind of stuff

02:01:52   that gets us all loving the Mac so much.

02:01:55   That's why we're all here,

02:01:56   because it's full of little stuff like that.

02:01:58   And it's just wonderful.

02:02:00   - That's also why it is difficult, rare, exhausting,

02:02:03   exhilarating to be a good Mac app developer.

02:02:08   So even in my super dinky app,

02:02:10   one of my apps is Switch Glass.

02:02:11   It just provides a little application switcher

02:02:12   that shows icons running applications.

02:02:15   I have a way to exclude applications

02:02:16   if you don't want an application

02:02:17   to ever appear in the switcher, right?

02:02:19   So there's a little exclude window that comes up

02:02:20   and you add applications to the exclude window

02:02:23   and they won't appear in the thing anymore.

02:02:25   But being a Mac user, my simple program

02:02:29   that I'm trying to keep super simple,

02:02:30   I'm like, all right, well, I've got a window on the screen

02:02:32   that says exclude these apps.

02:02:33   I've got the app switcher sitting right over there.

02:02:36   And you have this sensation, which as a developer

02:02:39   is both exhilarating and a sinking feeling,

02:02:41   which is like, I have to let people drag the applications

02:02:44   from the app switcher palette into the exclude window,

02:02:46   don't I?

02:02:46   Because it seems like it might work, right?

02:02:49   It seems like something that, will that work?

02:02:52   And in the current version, it doesn't work.

02:02:53   But when I was doing 2.0, I had to admit to myself,

02:02:56   that should probably work.

02:02:58   And so I had to make it work.

02:02:59   And you don't, if you're not a Mac user,

02:03:01   sort of steeped in the history of the Mac

02:03:03   or like understanding that like,

02:03:05   if someone thinks that it should probably work,

02:03:08   it should probably work.

02:03:09   Even if nobody's ever to do it.

02:03:10   The first person who says,

02:03:12   I wanna exclude an application, I don't want it,

02:03:14   because the other way to do it is like,

02:03:15   you hit the plus button and then it opens

02:03:17   an open save dialogue and you have to navigate

02:03:18   the open save dialogue to find your application.

02:03:20   And you're like, the application is freaking running.

02:03:22   I see it there in the app switcher palette in this app.

02:03:25   Can I just drag it?

02:03:26   And the answer is in 2.0, yes you can.

02:03:28   Because that's what a good Mac app does.

02:03:30   I mean, and people don't implement those

02:03:32   because it's worked to implement that feature

02:03:34   and like nobody's gonna ever use it.

02:03:36   It's like, it's a silly, frivolous feature,

02:03:39   but you can see the people who implemented

02:03:40   the command tab switcher had those correct instincts.

02:03:43   And that's why if you think it will work

02:03:45   with the command tab switcher

02:03:46   or dragging in the finder expose, it probably will.

02:03:50   - Yeah, and I wanna reiterate what Marko said

02:03:52   minute ago and you know the point you're making now John is that even if you

02:03:56   think no way that's gonna work just try it just try it because when it comes to

02:04:02   just basic Mac and finder in your windows within Mac functionality it

02:04:08   oftentimes does work which is bananas something as silly as alt tab tab tab

02:04:13   tab tab oh I went too far all right and I said all tab again didn't I could turn

02:04:17   Command-Tab, Tab, Tab, Tab, Tab, Tab, Tab. Oh, I went too far. Command-Shift-Tab? Oh, yeah, that did work.

02:04:25   You know, it's silly stuff like that, that you got to give it a shot. But to me,

02:04:29   I think the basics are understand when a window is closed. It does not mean that the app is just gone forever.

02:04:36   *, double *, dagger, double dagger.

02:04:39   Understanding that you have mission control,

02:04:41   that's F3 or assignable as a hot corner to kind of give you an escape hatch and get you back and get your your bearings

02:04:47   back. You can use the desktop as another hot corner in order to just get you an easy dropping zone on your desktop.

02:04:55   You can start talking about a lot of other things like proxy icons, which are super useful and kind of sort of went away until recently.

02:05:03   There's a lot here. There's a lot of depth here, but for my money

02:05:07   I think understanding the basic keyboard shortcuts command-q command-w all

02:05:12   Almost at all to get command tab command tilde which Marco had talked about earlier. I think

02:05:18   understanding all of these basics will get you started down the path and

02:05:23   Then we can have a meaningful and useful conversation about what the dagger double dagger asterisk double asterisks all are about

02:05:30   But I think the bare minimum is is what we were talking about so far in this after show and once you get that

02:05:37   under your belt, then we can go into intermediary level and talk about proxy icons and things

02:05:41   like that.

02:05:42   And then we can talk about advanced level where we start understanding the history behind

02:05:45   why all this is the way it is.

02:05:47   Yeah, the one you were getting at, the fundamental thing that Windows users have definitely with

02:05:51   is the fact that it's a hierarchy.

02:05:53   It's not like there's just a big, flat, giant set of windows, even though when you hit expose

02:05:57   that it's what you see.

02:05:59   There's a hierarchy.

02:06:00   There are applications and within each application there are windows.

02:06:04   So you could draw a tree, application A, all the windows that are in application A, application

02:06:08   B, all the windows that are in application B. That hierarchy exists all the time.

02:06:12   How that hierarchy exposes itself is kind of up to you.

02:06:16   But you could say, I don't see the hierarchy.

02:06:17   What are you talking about?

02:06:18   Well, Casey just explained one place that hierarchy works.

02:06:21   You can close all the windows in the application and the application is still running.

02:06:23   Because all you've done is closed all the little things, but the hierarchy still exists.

02:06:26   The application is still there.

02:06:27   You just trimmed off all the little, you know, if you were to draw the graph, you just deleted

02:06:30   all the nodes that were sticking out of that application.

02:06:32   but you didn't delete the application node itself

02:06:34   unless you quit the application, right?

02:06:36   And that's relevant, you know,

02:06:38   has to do with one of my little apps that I made.

02:06:40   The way the Mac used to work is if you clicked on a window

02:06:43   anywhere on the Mac,

02:06:45   it would bring that window to the front,

02:06:48   but it would also bring all the other windows

02:06:50   that belong to that application to the front

02:06:52   if it was in a different application.

02:06:53   So let's say you're in Chrome

02:06:54   and you click on a Finder window,

02:06:56   the old way the Mac used to work was

02:06:58   it would bring all the Finder windows to the front.

02:07:00   the one you clicked on will be in the front front, but again because it's a hierarchy, it would bring

02:07:05   all the finder windows in front of all the other windows on the screen with the frontmost window

02:07:11   being the one you clicked on. Mac OS X changed that, but they have under Mac OS X they made it,

02:07:16   if you're in Chrome and you click a finder window, the only thing that comes to the front is the

02:07:19   finder window you clicked on. Both of those modes have their uses, right? Sometimes you do want all

02:07:25   the finder windows to go in the front, sometimes you just want one window to come to the front,

02:07:29   And it really just kind of depends on what you're used to,

02:07:32   but the Mac can do both, even without my utility,

02:07:34   which I'll get to and get everyone to buy in a second.

02:07:38   The dock, when you click on a dock icon,

02:07:40   all the windows come to the front.

02:07:42   So if I am in Chrome and I click on the finder icon

02:07:44   on the dock, all the finder windows come to the front.

02:07:47   Otherwise, if they didn't,

02:07:48   how would it know which window to bring to the front?

02:07:50   I guess it could bring the front most one,

02:07:51   but I'm saying like the dock has always worked that way.

02:07:54   So Mac OS X does have a way to bring all the windows

02:07:57   that belong to an application to the front.

02:07:58   And you should understand, hey, when I click on the dock icon,

02:08:01   why does it behave differently than when I click on a window?

02:08:04   Because that's just the way they chose to do it.

02:08:06   You click on the dock icon, all the windows from that application

02:08:08   come to the front.

02:08:09   When you click on an individual window,

02:08:10   just that window comes to the front.

02:08:12   You can change that behavior with various modifier keys.

02:08:15   Or if you get my lovely little dinky utility

02:08:17   called front and center, front and center of that app

02:08:19   or it's on the Mac App Store, you

02:08:20   can choose what you want to happen.

02:08:22   What I want to happen, because I'm old and cranky,

02:08:24   is when I click on a window, I want all the windows

02:08:27   to come to the front.

02:08:28   But I also like the other way.

02:08:30   So front and center lets you choose.

02:08:32   You can configure it to say when I shift click a window,

02:08:35   I just want that one window to come to the front.

02:08:37   Or vice versa, you can have shift click

02:08:39   bring all the windows or just one.

02:08:41   That policy decision is made on a per click basis

02:08:43   depending on whether you have the shift key down.

02:08:45   This is a feature I stole from DragThing

02:08:47   and a bunch of other applications

02:08:48   that did this way before me.

02:08:49   All those applications went away.

02:08:51   I could not live without them,

02:08:52   so I literally made another one.

02:08:56   But even without using my dinky little app,

02:08:58   understand that macOS itself has different ways

02:09:02   for you to make those choices.

02:09:03   It sometimes makes those choices for you.

02:09:04   And if you don't understand the hierarchy,

02:09:06   you'll be confused about, like,

02:09:07   say you're looking at a Chrome window

02:09:08   and you wanna get something in a Finder window

02:09:11   and you go down to the dock

02:09:12   and you hit the little Finder icon,

02:09:13   and all of a sudden 50 Finder windows

02:09:15   cover up all your Chrome windows.

02:09:16   You're like, "I just wanted one Finder window.

02:09:18   "Why did that happen?"

02:09:19   It happened because that's the way the dock works.

02:09:21   When you click on the little happy face Finder icon,

02:09:24   they all come to the front.

02:09:25   And if you don't want that to happen,

02:09:26   don't click the dock icon,

02:09:27   instead click on the finder window that you want.

02:09:29   And then you get into,

02:09:30   well, how do I find that finder window?

02:09:32   And is the corner of it poking out somewhere?

02:09:35   Is everything full screen?

02:09:36   Like it gets more complicated,

02:09:37   but understanding the hierarchy at least gives you

02:09:40   a foundation to understand the different moves

02:09:43   that you can make.

02:09:44   And then you can choose,

02:09:45   what do you want those moves to be?

02:09:46   What do you want to happen when you click a window?

02:09:48   What do you want to happen when you click a dock icon

02:09:49   or whatever?

02:09:50   Again, if you just want a single window,

02:09:52   you could right click the finder

02:09:53   and you'll see a list of all the windows that are open in the Finder

02:09:55   and you can pick just the one you want and then just that one will come to the front.

02:09:58   So, but that's, you know, you have to understand that that's a choice that you make

02:10:02   and unfortunately with the dock, you don't have the choice to change how it's configured.

02:10:05   Clicking will always bring them all and right-clicking will always bring the right-click menu, so on and so forth.

02:10:10   (beeping)