497: The Hotness Has to Go Somewhere


00:00:00   God, I hate this freaking LG monitor.

00:00:01   It's been crooked all night.

00:00:03   I can't fix it.

00:00:03   It's the--

00:00:04   [LAUGHTER]

00:00:05   It's like one degree off.

00:00:07   Like, I just-- but I can't figure out-- it's like John's audio

00:00:09   sync.

00:00:09   I can't, like, straight--

00:00:11   [GROANS]

00:00:11   Freaking LG.

00:00:12   So fine.

00:00:13   I was in Costco the other day going through, like,

00:00:15   the monitor section.

00:00:16   I was saying, like, LG always makes bad stands.

00:00:18   And I just go there, and I hit them with my finger.

00:00:19   And you just go online, tap, tap, tap.

00:00:21   And the LG ones would just, like,

00:00:22   shake like little spinning plates, little bobbleheads,

00:00:24   you know?

00:00:25   Because they would just keep shaking as you went.

00:00:27   It's just so hilarious.

00:00:28   Like the Alienware Asus one would just move once

00:00:31   and come right back.

00:00:32   It's like bad shocks on your car.

00:00:33   You just go, "Wobble, wobble, wobble."

00:00:35   It's so bad.

00:00:36   (electronic beeping)

00:00:40   - I've been doing a lot of driving today in the Defender.

00:00:44   - Oh, and?

00:00:45   - It's interesting.

00:00:47   There's a lot about it I like.

00:00:48   There's a lot about it that is going back to the past.

00:00:52   Like I had to get gassed today.

00:00:54   - Oh, I'm so sorry.

00:00:57   - Well, and I, so I got the gas at the pump,

00:01:00   and it was all, you know, gross,

00:01:01   and I'm like relearning, like, oh,

00:01:03   do pumps take wireless payments now?

00:01:05   No.

00:01:06   At least this one.

00:01:07   - Oh, Costco does.

00:01:08   Costco does, baby. - This one didn't.

00:01:09   I mean, this is, you know, some random one upstate, right?

00:01:12   This one, at least this one wasn't advanced enough

00:01:14   to have ads playing at me while I was standing there

00:01:16   pumping my dinosaurs into my car,

00:01:18   but I also, like, I'm so out of practice that,

00:01:21   like, you know, I pumped the gas,

00:01:22   and then I, like, drove over to one of the parking spots

00:01:24   to go inside to the soda factory,

00:01:27   and I had totally left the gas cap totally off.

00:01:31   Like, not just the metal door.

00:01:33   Like, the cap wasn't even screwed back on.

00:01:36   Like, I just totally forgot.

00:01:38   - Normally the car will have a warning light for that,

00:01:40   'cause it'll, like, the pressure in the gas tank

00:01:42   will be weird and it'll put on a light.

00:01:44   - Yeah, and maybe, you know,

00:01:45   had I driven more than 30 feet,

00:01:47   maybe it would've told me that,

00:01:48   but I just, like, drove, like, 30 feet and parked.

00:01:50   - At least you disconnected the, you know,

00:01:52   - Took the nozzle out, didn't just drive away

00:01:54   with it attached to the car.

00:01:55   - Yeah, that's true, that's true.

00:01:56   - Right, right, right.

00:01:57   Yeah, so it's, yeah, but anyway.

00:01:59   So one thing I realized, so you know, I did,

00:02:03   I mean, jeez, a lot of driving today,

00:02:04   probably six hours of driving today.

00:02:07   You know, got finally a lot of carplay use in.

00:02:10   And one thing I noticed--

00:02:11   - Ooh, I've been waiting for this,

00:02:12   I've been waiting for this.

00:02:13   - Yeah, oh, and first of all, before I forget,

00:02:15   the key fob is ridiculous.

00:02:17   Like, this thing, let me, I have it in my pocket here.

00:02:20   This is bigger than an AirPods Pro case.

00:02:22   - It should be, to punish you,

00:02:23   it should be shaped like the Defender.

00:02:25   It should be like the Tesla one,

00:02:27   so it should be really tall and boxy

00:02:29   and have huge wheels on it and lots of ground clearance.

00:02:31   (laughing)

00:02:33   - This thing, I mean, I don't think it's that much bigger

00:02:37   than a lot of modern car key fobs.

00:02:38   I've just been spoiled by Tesla's nice little

00:02:40   like tiny mini Tesla thing, so there's that.

00:02:43   Anyway, oh, and another funny thing.

00:02:45   So, you know, the Defender, it's a very tall vehicle,

00:02:48   as discussed, lots of headroom for John's hair.

00:02:51   but yeah, very tall vehicle, and I've also,

00:02:55   I've attached a roof box to the top of it for reasons.

00:02:58   And I've never done this before,

00:02:59   I've never used one of these boxes before,

00:03:01   but as part of my beach preparedness,

00:03:05   I wanted to carry with me recovery gear if I get stuck.

00:03:09   So that includes things like I have MaxTrax traction boards,

00:03:13   I have a giant, one of those elastic tow ropes,

00:03:16   and some soft shackles and other towing equipment,

00:03:20   basically in case I need to be towed out

00:03:21   or tow someone else out.

00:03:23   And that's all pretty bulky, big stuff.

00:03:26   And so I figured, let me get the smallest roof box I can

00:03:31   and put it all in there, that way I can load the back,

00:03:34   'cause you know, when I'm actually using this vehicle,

00:03:37   the trunk is usually full of something,

00:03:39   whether it's groceries or whether it's like our luggage

00:03:41   coming to and from upstate or whatever,

00:03:43   like the trunk is usually full.

00:03:44   So I didn't wanna spend trunk space

00:03:46   on all this recovery gear, 'cause frankly,

00:03:48   the turning space is not that generous in the vehicle.

00:03:51   - Okay, so I gotta pause you again.

00:03:52   Gotta pause you again.

00:03:54   You bought this probably not inexpensive toy for yourself

00:03:59   on the promise that it would be excellent on the sand,

00:04:04   and then immediately just thumbs your nose at it

00:04:08   by putting a bunch of sand recovery junk on top of it

00:04:12   because you assume that it will inevitably

00:04:14   and eventually get stuck.

00:04:15   - Well, he already had that sand recovery stuff.

00:04:17   - Yeah, I had it all in the FJ taking up its entire trunk.

00:04:19   - That's right, all right, all right,

00:04:21   I'll begrudgingly allow it.

00:04:22   And just to be clear, you're talking about

00:04:24   like a tule or equivalent that you put on the top,

00:04:25   is that right?

00:04:26   - Yeah, it's this ino thing.

00:04:27   I looked at the, is it thule?

00:04:30   (laughs)

00:04:31   - I thought it was tule.

00:04:32   I might be, I very well have that,

00:04:34   I might have that dead wrong, I'm not sure.

00:04:36   - Why would you pronounce, anyway, maybe they do,

00:04:38   I mean that's certainly not a charitable way

00:04:39   to pronounce that, but anyway.

00:04:41   So I got this ino thing because I looked at the tule

00:04:44   or thule, I looked at their offerings

00:04:46   and this N01 was lower than what they offered

00:04:51   without going to their really long, super long ski one.

00:04:55   'Cause I don't need a lot of height,

00:04:56   I just need some storage volume.

00:04:59   This one's only nine cubic feet.

00:05:01   'Cause I didn't want to be sticking up

00:05:02   even further into the sky than I already am.

00:05:04   - This is gonna make your car even more aerodynamic.

00:05:07   - Right. (laughs)

00:05:09   But anyway, so I attached this box

00:05:11   and so now the vehicle's even taller.

00:05:13   So even without this box,

00:05:15   I'm pretty sure it would not fit in my Westchester garage.

00:05:18   Like I think my garage is too short.

00:05:20   You know, it's an old house.

00:05:21   The garage is probably from somewhere around the 1960s.

00:05:24   So, you know, there's no way this vehicle's

00:05:26   fitting in the garage, even just with like

00:05:27   the roof rails on it.

00:05:29   And then when I add another, you know,

00:05:31   whatever this is, like 10 inches on top of that, forget it.

00:05:34   And it was so high that I even, I took it around today,

00:05:37   like I'm trying to drive it as much as possible,

00:05:39   even when I'm in Westchester where I could just drive,

00:05:42   you know, the Tesla, but I wanted to like just get a feel

00:05:45   for the vehicle, like get a feel for how big is this thing?

00:05:48   Get used to the visibility and the handling and everything

00:05:51   just so I can drive it better,

00:05:53   'cause I've never driven a vehicle this big, really.

00:05:55   And so, I drive it so carefully.

00:05:58   I drive it like when I rented that RV.

00:06:00   Like I drive it like that.

00:06:01   (laughing)

00:06:03   But anyway, so I'm driving around town

00:06:04   getting groceries and everything,

00:06:06   and I'm like, can I fit under these parking garage gates?

00:06:10   Like I don't even know.

00:06:11   And like one of them, I was pulled into the Whole Foods

00:06:14   garage and it says like, you know, clearance eight foot two.

00:06:17   And I'm like, hmm, that doesn't sound that high.

00:06:20   It doesn't look that high.

00:06:21   Let me, you know, I go under it really slowly.

00:06:24   I'm watching through the sunroof,

00:06:25   like watching the roof box and like I cleared it,

00:06:29   but I didn't look like I had a lot of free space.

00:06:32   (laughing)

00:06:33   It didn't seem that generous.

00:06:34   I'm like, okay, I'll make it under like bridges and stuff,

00:06:38   but maybe not low parking garages.

00:06:40   (laughing)

00:06:42   I'm getting used to having the larger vehicle.

00:06:43   But anyway, CarPlay.

00:06:45   So for the first half of today, I'm using CarPlay,

00:06:48   and this is wireless CarPlay, great, super nice.

00:06:52   And it's fine, the only thing is that everything is laggy.

00:06:56   Like you hit pause on the steering wheel

00:06:58   or you tap pause on the screen or whatever,

00:07:00   and it takes like a half a second to a second

00:07:03   to actually respond, and that's to almost everything.

00:07:07   So play pause, seek back, seek forward,

00:07:10   the Siri button, and even when a navigation prompt

00:07:15   would interrupt the audio, the audio would keep playing

00:07:19   in the podcast app for an extra half second to second

00:07:23   before it actually, while it's being ducked,

00:07:26   it would get ducked, but you'd still hear

00:07:28   what the person was saying for another half second,

00:07:31   and then it would take another half second lag

00:07:33   on the way out.

00:07:34   And I remember, I have a couple of these little tiny,

00:07:38   They almost look like crappy little Android GPS units.

00:07:41   They have little mounts for cars

00:07:43   that are CarPlay test rigs for me.

00:07:45   They're like 200 bucks from Amazon,

00:07:46   way better than my old test rig

00:07:48   where I have to actually have a head unit and everything.

00:07:50   And they're literally just cheap Android tablets, basically,

00:07:53   in a car enclosure with a DC in.

00:07:57   And one of those that I have,

00:07:59   the first one I got was wired CarPlay.

00:08:00   I later got one that had wireless support,

00:08:02   which makes debugging way easier,

00:08:04   'cause you can have a USB port on the phone.

00:08:06   Anyway.

00:08:07   So I noticed with those that wireless carplay on those

00:08:12   is very laggy and so I ended up really hating

00:08:14   using the wireless one because again,

00:08:16   you'd hit play/pause and it would be wait

00:08:19   and then it would go.

00:08:20   And if you plug in wired, it's like no lag at all.

00:08:24   I seem to have that same lag doing wireless carplay

00:08:27   in this and I'm wondering,

00:08:28   is every wireless carplay vehicle like this?

00:08:31   Like is this just a thing with wireless carplay?

00:08:33   - Yes.

00:08:34   Well, I shouldn't say that with such authority.

00:08:37   in my experience with admittedly a third party dongle bridging between the wired only CarPlay

00:08:44   and my phone. So, you know, this is maybe not the best example, but I noticed that my little dongle,

00:08:50   which I do like, and if I remember I'll put a link in the show notes, actually in their newer

00:08:55   versions than what I have. But anyways, my dongle, there is definitely a lag as compared to when I'm

00:09:02   I'm directly connected.

00:09:03   I personally don't find the lag to be egregious,

00:09:06   or perhaps I've just gotten used to it,

00:09:07   but as we all know, of the three of us,

00:09:09   I am the least discerning by a mile.

00:09:11   So consider your source here.

00:09:13   But yes, I've noticed with my car,

00:09:16   there is a dramatic difference between when I am,

00:09:19   on the rare occasions when I physically plug in

00:09:21   if I'm gonna be in the car for multiple hours at a time,

00:09:24   or 99% of my use when I'm just using that dongle thing.

00:09:27   Yeah, there's definitely a noticeable lag.

00:09:29   Now I have updated the software on that dongle

00:09:32   which is an adventure because it clearly is right out of China and not everything has been translated and the things have been translated have been

00:09:37   air-quote

00:09:39   Translated but nevertheless I have been able to successfully update software a few times and it's gotten better, but it's still

00:09:46   laggier for sure and

00:09:49   For my for me

00:09:51   I will take that trade-off for not having to plug in because my trips generally speaking this might not be true for you Marco

00:09:58   But for me, my trips are like anywhere between five and twenty minutes tops

00:10:02   99% of the time and so it's not long enough usually to bother plugging in my phone

00:10:09   But long enough that hey, it would be nice if CarPlay came on and so this dongle that I bought which at the time

00:10:14   It was a gift actually, but I think it's like 130 bucks or something like that

00:10:17   well worth the money to me even considering the lag because it's just convenient to keep your phone in your pocket and

00:10:23   Be able to do all the CarPlay stuff and not have to worry about plugging and unplugging

00:10:27   This is probably the first worldiest of first world problems,

00:10:29   I acknowledge that, but I think that juice

00:10:32   is worth the squeeze, but yes,

00:10:34   there is definitely a noticeable lag,

00:10:35   and it's stinky, but you get used to it.

00:10:38   - Because I noticed, like, when, so, you know,

00:10:40   there was a period today where Tiff and Adam

00:10:43   were going into a store, and I had,

00:10:44   I got to wait in the car and play with all the settings

00:10:46   and everything, really for the first time

00:10:48   that I actually had a good amount of time with it,

00:10:50   and I went through all the menus and played all the settings

00:10:51   and I actually found there was a setting

00:10:53   to turn off wireless carplay,

00:10:55   and to then force it to be wired.

00:10:56   So I love that that setting is there,

00:10:59   so I got to try it back to back,

00:11:01   and it's night and day difference.

00:11:03   Like when I turn it off, when I'm wired CarPlay,

00:11:07   it responds much more quickly

00:11:10   than even Bluetooth in other cars.

00:11:11   Like Bluetooth in the Tesla, which was in support CarPlay,

00:11:15   Bluetooth there is kind of in between these two

00:11:18   in terms of lag, and then just wired CarPlay,

00:11:23   it was extremely delightfully fast.

00:11:27   I was so pleased.

00:11:28   I was giddy how quickly it was responding

00:11:31   to everything when wired.

00:11:33   And then sure enough, go back to wireless

00:11:35   and it's very laggy and frustrating.

00:11:37   And so I think I'm actually gonna keep it wired for a while

00:11:39   'cause again, as you mentioned,

00:11:40   my usage pattern's a little bit different.

00:11:42   I tend to go on a small number of long trips

00:11:46   rather than a high number of short ones.

00:11:48   So for my usage pattern,

00:11:51   I think it's probably worth the hassle to plug in.

00:11:53   to get that satisfaction of having it be really nice

00:11:56   as I'm using it, you know?

00:11:58   - Plus having a charge while you drive, right?

00:12:00   - Yep, yeah, exactly.

00:12:01   So yeah, I'm gonna play with that back and forth

00:12:04   a little bit here and there and maybe report back later,

00:12:06   but I was kind of surprised.

00:12:08   I would expect wireless CarPlay,

00:12:10   CarPlay didn't exist with wireless at first.

00:12:13   I would imagine down the road when they added it,

00:12:15   I would expect that one of the design requirements

00:12:18   if they're going to add it would be no major downsides

00:12:21   in the experience compared to wired.

00:12:23   And I'd say it's a pretty major downside.

00:12:25   Like it's very, it's laggy enough that it's weird.

00:12:28   - Yeah, I mean, again, maybe I've gotten used to it

00:12:30   'cause I've had this dongle since around the time

00:12:33   I got my first vaccination.

00:12:34   So I guess it was like a little over a year now.

00:12:36   And I definitely have gotten used to it

00:12:38   and it's gotten better, like I said.

00:12:41   If I was in your shoes, I would probably plug in

00:12:44   just like you said.

00:12:45   But seriously, if you set your expectations appropriately

00:12:49   and if you're not quite as discerning as Marco or John,

00:12:51   And I think you'll find wireless carplay to be well within the realm of acceptable.

00:12:56   But as much as I'm giving you a hard time, I don't disagree with anything you've said.

00:13:01   And even I can notice that there's definitely more latency when you're wireless.

00:13:06   Well, keep in mind, the hardware in cars is pretty universally awful, like extremely behind

00:13:11   the times.

00:13:12   Very old, very slow stuff.

00:13:13   And Apple doesn't control both ends of this.

00:13:15   If you want to know how fast Apple can do a wireless display thing, just use Sidecar

00:13:21   on a Mac and an iPad.

00:13:22   And it's incredibly responsive, right?

00:13:24   Because Apple controls both sides of that.

00:13:26   They control the hardware and the software on both ends.

00:13:28   Here, they can require that the car makers support such and such a protocol on these

00:13:32   ports with this thing and so on, but they can't control what hardware car makers use.

00:13:37   And I continue to be amazed at no matter how expensive the car is, they're seemingly using

00:13:42   like 386s inside there with like no memory, extremely slow, like Tesla probably has the

00:13:47   most powerful hardware of any car because they use semi-modern components, Nvidia GPU,

00:13:52   so on and so forth.

00:13:53   And even in that case it could sometimes feel less responsive than an iPad, right?

00:13:57   If Apple wants to do something for the car industry instead of making a car instead of

00:14:01   trying to figure out self-driving, they could just donate a bunch of old A-whatever chips

00:14:06   to car makers because like they're just so much faster and more capable than what is

00:14:11   and put it in this car.

00:14:12   And I don't think your brand of car

00:14:14   has a particular reputation for having

00:14:17   a very good infotainment hardware in it.

00:14:21   Some brands are better than others,

00:14:22   but it's grim out there.

00:14:25   So I'm glad that the wired one works better,

00:14:28   but I'm not shocked that the wireless one

00:14:30   is pretty terrible.

00:14:31   - Well, and there are some other considerations.

00:14:33   It's like when we send computers to space,

00:14:35   they have to be extremely rugged and extremely reliable

00:14:39   and be able to tolerate--

00:14:40   - That's what the car makers say.

00:14:41   That's why we're using 42 nanometer.

00:14:43   - But yeah, and cars like you have to tolerate

00:14:45   huge temperature extremes.

00:14:47   It has to work in the freezing cold and the super hot.

00:14:50   It has to work in direct sun.

00:14:52   Good luck getting your iPhone to work in direct sun

00:14:54   for very long.

00:14:55   There are different requirements there,

00:14:57   and so I understand why it would be more conservative there.

00:15:01   - I'm apparently the king of tangents today,

00:15:03   and this is the show of the trios of the kings of tangents,

00:15:06   but here we are.

00:15:07   I have noticed, I don't know if this is something

00:15:09   that's happened recently or I'm just noticing it

00:15:11   more recently, do you guys find that when you are outside,

00:15:16   particularly in the summer, your phone or your iPad,

00:15:20   I've had this happen on my 2018 iPad Pro

00:15:21   and my iPhone 13 Pro, all of a sudden the brightness

00:15:25   will like collapse and it'll be considerably less bright.

00:15:28   - Yeah, that's thermal overloading.

00:15:30   - That's what I was gonna say, I assume it cools down a bit

00:15:33   and then it gets bright for like half a second

00:15:35   and then it gets back dim again.

00:15:36   I don't feel like this is something that's been going on

00:15:39   for long, I feel like this has happened

00:15:40   in a semi-recent software update.

00:15:42   Again, might be bananas, I might have this all wrong.

00:15:44   - No, it's just 'cause it's August.

00:15:45   (laughs)

00:15:46   - That's what I was gonna say,

00:15:47   like maybe it's the time of year.

00:15:48   - This happens every summer because, yeah,

00:15:50   that is the phone going into thermal protection mode,

00:15:53   basically, there's a couple of levels to it.

00:15:55   One of the levels is, oh crap, I'm getting too hot,

00:15:58   turn the screen brightness down,

00:16:00   and then if it still gets too hot,

00:16:01   then you'll actually see it go into thermal shutdown,

00:16:02   where it'll show that little alert message saying,

00:16:04   sorry, you can't use me right now.

00:16:06   - Okay, so I'm glad it's not just me, I appreciate it.

00:16:08   Thank you. Okay, so going back to what you were saying, what do you think of the CarPlay

00:16:12   experience? And I don't mean that flippantly. I know you've used CarPlay on occasion, certainly

00:16:16   during testing, but this is, to the best of my knowledge, the first, or one of the first,

00:16:21   like real honest to goodness, genuine uses out in the quote-unquote "wild." Do you like

00:16:26   it? Do you think it's good? Are you somehow yearning for your Tesla for some reason? Well,

00:16:30   specifically with regard to infotainment for some reason. What do you think of CarPlay

00:16:34   as an idea?

00:16:35   - So, when I, you know, using the Tesla for the last

00:16:40   five, six years, so, almost seven, seven years, wow,

00:16:45   using the Tesla for all that time,

00:16:47   my solution not having CarPlay has been,

00:16:50   I just got a ProClip USA phone mount

00:16:53   and just mounted the phone, you know,

00:16:54   next to the steering wheel on the dash,

00:16:56   and so it's, you know, just outside of my field of view,

00:16:58   like, you know, diagonally down to the right a little bit,

00:17:00   and I just, and I plug it in so it's charging all the time,

00:17:03   It communicates with the car over Bluetooth,

00:17:05   so I have all that integration.

00:17:07   So I just use Waze, my mapping app, on the phone

00:17:11   as a regular phone app.

00:17:13   And so if I have to bounce over to music or overcast,

00:17:17   I can do that, but it's not safe to be doing

00:17:20   a lot of interaction with the phone.

00:17:22   So the idea of CarPlay would be,

00:17:23   hey, let's restrict what can be done

00:17:27   and optimize it for a larger screen

00:17:31   with larger tap or wheel targets

00:17:34   and fewer interactions possible.

00:17:37   Don't show any kind of messages

00:17:38   that could be distracting with text.

00:17:40   So all of those benefits with CarPlay

00:17:42   are there and are real.

00:17:45   I do find though that it is a little frustrating

00:17:49   how limiting it is, but in a way, that's good for me.

00:17:53   I don't want all the capabilities of the full phone

00:17:56   when I am driving.

00:17:57   It's unsafe to use all those capabilities.

00:17:59   I don't want those available to me

00:18:00   and I don't wanna have to use them.

00:18:02   - Yeah, it's unsafe at any speed.

00:18:04   - Right, but at the same time,

00:18:05   if doing something in CarPlay is clunky,

00:18:09   then that will result in my eyes being distracted

00:18:11   from the road for a longer period of time.

00:18:13   So I don't know if it's,

00:18:16   I'm sure it's safer overall probably,

00:18:19   but self-control with what you're doing

00:18:23   is way more important than the type of screen

00:18:26   that you're looking at for the actions that you're doing.

00:18:29   And if CarPlay, by being so limited,

00:18:33   I'm not sure if it's actually gonna be that much of a gain

00:18:38   over what I was doing before,

00:18:39   just having the phone in a mount.

00:18:40   Again, having the phone in a mount

00:18:41   and just practicing reasonable self-control

00:18:43   and not like texting or anything.

00:18:45   Like that, I've driven that way for almost seven years

00:18:49   or whatever and it's been fine, it's been great.

00:18:51   And I've had all the abilities of the mapping apps.

00:18:54   Yeah, so for the first part of this morning,

00:18:57   I tried using Waze for the first leg of the trip,

00:19:01   and its CarPlay view just was buggy

00:19:03   and just was displaying an empty map

00:19:05   and just wouldn't load the map.

00:19:06   And I tried force quitting Waze,

00:19:07   I tried restarting CarPlay,

00:19:09   it just didn't work for whatever reason.

00:19:10   I'm on the beta, it could be that, who knows.

00:19:12   It's beta life, welcome to summertime,

00:19:14   being an iPhone developer.

00:19:15   But I just couldn't use Waze,

00:19:18   I had to switch over to Apple Maps.

00:19:20   And it was frustrating that I couldn't use

00:19:21   my preferred mapping app.

00:19:23   I tried it again later in the day, it worked fine.

00:19:25   But all that time, like Waze, like the iPhone app

00:19:28   would have worked fine.

00:19:28   It's just their CarPlay view that was buggy.

00:19:30   So I had to deal with the fact that, well,

00:19:32   I'm using it through the special view mode

00:19:34   and I have to use it through this mode.

00:19:36   I don't have a cell phone mount for this car yet.

00:19:39   And so it was kind of annoying that I had to deal

00:19:42   with this buggier side of Apple's software

00:19:45   or Waze's software, one of them.

00:19:47   Whoever was responsible for this not showing a map,

00:19:49   you know, I had to deal with that.

00:19:51   And I know from Overcast development,

00:19:53   CarPlay is buggy and it doesn't get a lot of attention.

00:19:56   And so when there are weird little CarPlay quirks,

00:20:00   as a developer you kinda just have to deal with them.

00:20:02   And you have relatively little control

00:20:05   over what is shown on a CarPlay screen.

00:20:06   Like you have some control, you're kinda working

00:20:09   with these pre-made template styles and everything,

00:20:11   but certain little behavioral details you can't control.

00:20:14   So anyway, so it is kind of a mixed bag

00:20:18   compared to just having the phone help you in a mount.

00:20:21   I do intend to just live with it this way for a long time

00:20:24   just so I can experience more of it

00:20:26   and so I can be a better carplay developer for my app.

00:20:29   Actually having used it more,

00:20:31   that's fairly important to me for my app.

00:20:33   So I'm gonna keep using it this way.

00:20:36   I'm not gonna switch over to a phone mount quite yet,

00:20:38   but it wouldn't surprise me if long term

00:20:42   I stick a phone mount in this car, but I don't know.

00:20:44   We'll see.

00:20:45   - I'm sure people will send us this link,

00:20:47   which I'm sure all of us have already seen by now,

00:20:49   but we'll put it in the show notes just so people know.

00:20:50   There was this Swedish study on touch screens versus physical controls that has been going

00:20:55   around the internet for the past week or two.

00:20:58   Surprise surprise they found that physical controls have an advantage over touch screens

00:21:01   in terms of distraction.

00:21:02   I have to say though, I'm not convinced by the rigor of this study.

00:21:08   It seems like they did a small number of perhaps not entirely representative tests and the

00:21:12   results are not particularly as dramatic as the distribution of this magazine would lead

00:21:18   you to believe if you actually look at them.

00:21:21   So I don't think this is a great study.

00:21:25   But I do think that the biggest factor in terms of distraction is kind of what Marco

00:21:31   is getting at in terms of, not so much self control, but what you actually use the touchscreen

00:21:38   for.

00:21:39   So in all the cases, whether Marco has his phone mounted or he's using CarPlay, he's

00:21:43   He's not using the touch screen to adjust where the airflow is going or to turn the

00:21:48   fan up or to turn the seat heaters on or to adjust the side mirrors or anything like that

00:21:53   in the Land Rover.

00:21:56   There are no car controls there.

00:21:57   They're just the map and whatever phone things he might be doing.

00:22:01   The self control is okay if you have access to the full phone, don't use all the features

00:22:05   of the phone, but there's no amount of self control he needs to not use a touch screen

00:22:08   to turn on the seat heaters.

00:22:10   That's just not on the touch screen.

00:22:11   It's not on.

00:22:12   In the defense of both this comparison

00:22:16   and of your example here, first of all,

00:22:18   I think the tasks that the comparison thing had them do,

00:22:21   I'm not sure were super realistic

00:22:23   for actually making this judgment.

00:22:25   There are some esoteric stuff in there.

00:22:27   And secondly, when you have, like right now,

00:22:30   I'm learning a new car, 'cause I just got this car,

00:22:33   I'm still learning, I've never had this brand before,

00:22:35   so I don't know their conventions.

00:22:36   As I'm learning this car, even the physical controls

00:22:39   have a learning curve.

00:22:40   I have to figure out where they are and how they work.

00:22:43   - That's one of the things the study did well though.

00:22:44   It let people sort of study ahead of time

00:22:48   so they weren't doing a learning process.

00:22:50   So everybody who was being tested had,

00:22:53   you were able to sort of figure out the controls

00:22:55   in a stationary car and get it down pat.

00:22:58   - Oh, okay, all right.

00:22:59   - That's what they were trying to test.

00:23:00   I still don't think it's a particularly representative test

00:23:02   because the things they had them do

00:23:03   are not particularly representative.

00:23:04   If you look at the results,

00:23:05   it's not like the touch screens

00:23:07   all lose to all physical controls.

00:23:09   It's more of a mixed bag.

00:23:11   You'd have to study this more to,

00:23:13   it'd have to be more rigorous than a magazine article,

00:23:15   but they did at the very least do that and say,

00:23:18   look, we know it's hard to figure stuff out.

00:23:20   And like I said, physical controls can be stuff to figure out

00:23:22   but just study ahead of time, take two hours.

00:23:25   And basically what they were trying to do is like,

00:23:26   okay, you know exactly how it works, now speed run it.

00:23:29   Now you're not looking for any buttons,

00:23:31   you know where the buttons are,

00:23:32   you know where they are on the menus.

00:23:33   You've done it 100 times before,

00:23:35   but now do it as fast as you can

00:23:36   because this test was like, you know, how quickly can you do it?

00:23:39   How much ground does the car cover when you're distracted and they tracked where

00:23:42   their eyeballs were and where they were looking.

00:23:43   Another big factor in this is how low down on the dash is the screen versus how

00:23:47   high up is your phone mounted and stuff like that. Again,

00:23:49   I don't think this is a great study,

00:23:51   but I personally believe that a smart mix of physical controls and

00:23:55   screen is the best solution.

00:23:57   And anything that goes all in one direction or the other is probably leaving

00:24:00   money on the table in terms of using the interface for what it's best for.

00:24:03   Yeah. But also, you know, just to, you know,

00:24:05   to finish my argument also,

00:24:08   when I learned the touchscreen in the Tesla

00:24:10   over six years or whatever, I became very fast with it.

00:24:14   The downside though, and right now I'm very slow

00:24:17   with the Lamborghini because again, it's unfamiliar to me,

00:24:20   the downside though is when you learn those touchscreen,

00:24:23   then after six months they got a new frickin' designer

00:24:25   and they move everything around.

00:24:26   And so it's like you're forced all of a sudden unexpectedly

00:24:29   to have a new car in the morning.

00:24:30   In a bad way, it's like wait a minute,

00:24:32   where do my controls go?

00:24:33   Now everything looks different

00:24:34   has been moved around and reorganized,

00:24:36   because some designer from Facebook got into Tesla

00:24:39   and just decided to have fun with it.

00:24:40   Like, that kind of stuff, that drove me nuts with Tesla.

00:24:44   And that's gonna happen with many touchscreen things

00:24:47   that are run by these more tech-forward companies.

00:24:49   That's unlikely to happen with BMW, Toyota.

00:24:53   They're not gonna be changing their interfaces

00:24:54   through software updates, probably, I hope.

00:24:56   That's gonna be less of a thing

00:24:57   with these traditional companies.

00:24:59   With somebody like Tesla or Rivian,

00:25:01   these very techy companies,

00:25:03   I think it's gonna keep being a problem

00:25:05   where you get used to all the controls

00:25:07   and then, and again, I think once you're used to it,

00:25:09   I think this is the kind of thing that,

00:25:11   I bet in a few years they're gonna do more studies like this

00:25:15   and over time, there's gonna end up being no difference

00:25:18   between touch screens and physical controls for most people

00:25:21   when they are familiar with them.

00:25:23   - Yeah, I don't know about that.

00:25:24   - I don't know about that because the big barrier,

00:25:26   well first of all, there are things that touch screens

00:25:27   are just plain worse for, but even for the things

00:25:29   where they might be as good, once you thoroughly understand

00:25:32   where everything is, the problem they have

00:25:34   is what I just talked about before.

00:25:35   Touch screens make you wait between steps

00:25:38   due to slower hardware.

00:25:39   Physical controls don't make you wait.

00:25:40   You can press the button, press the button,

00:25:41   press the button, press the button.

00:25:42   The buttons, you know, there's no lag, there's no waiting.

00:25:45   It's a physical interface, right?

00:25:46   It's not like you need to push the button in six inches

00:25:48   and hold it for two seconds, right?

00:25:49   Whereas if you know it's two menus deep

00:25:51   and you know exactly where it is,

00:25:52   you don't even need to look at the screen,

00:25:53   you still need to wait for the next screen to load.

00:25:55   And right now, there is no car interface

00:25:57   where there is no screen waiting.

00:25:58   And I would imagine that even an Apple one

00:26:00   on a fancy A-whatever chip in a fantasy Apple car

00:26:02   would also make you wait so they could play

00:26:04   some stupid 120 frames per second animation

00:26:06   that takes 0.25 seconds, right?

00:26:08   - But you're also, this argument is presuming

00:26:11   that things are in like sub screens or sub panels.

00:26:13   And this is why, when people criticize Tesla's design

00:26:17   for being all touchscreen, that applies much more

00:26:20   to their current vehicles than to the one I have,

00:26:23   which was before they cut the steering wheel in half

00:26:25   and got rid of the shifter and everything.

00:26:27   And so the one I have, and pretty much all the,

00:26:31   every Model S before like 2020 or whenever

00:26:33   that change happened, every Model S, every Model X

00:26:36   before that time, they had a small number

00:26:40   of levers and buttons, and then a lot of stuff

00:26:43   on the touchscreen, but then the touchscreen,

00:26:44   first of all, was giant, and it would have a lot

00:26:47   of controls along that, especially along that bottom strip

00:26:50   that you didn't have to bring up a sub-screen.

00:26:53   And so it was kind of like having a physical control array

00:26:56   in the sense that you could always count on

00:26:58   this certain array of very common controls,

00:27:01   like the fan speed and the defroster and everything,

00:27:04   that was all on the bottom row

00:27:06   in this kind of constant toolbar that was down there.

00:27:09   And so when touch screens are done well,

00:27:12   like that one generally was

00:27:14   before this stupid new designer came in,

00:27:16   when these things are done well,

00:27:18   and I also had a few physical controls

00:27:21   for the most common stuff.

00:27:23   So, you know, the shifter, you know,

00:27:25   the drive direction shifter, you know,

00:27:27   obviously things like turn signals, windshield wipers,

00:27:30   you know, the--

00:27:31   - You say obviously, but they basically got rid of

00:27:34   a physical physical control for that,

00:27:35   and now it's a capacitive button on the steering wheel.

00:27:37   - I know.

00:27:38   (laughing)

00:27:40   Anyway.

00:27:40   - Also, I love that you think that you had

00:27:42   physical controls for all the most obvious things.

00:27:45   So, I have a Volkswagen Golf, and I have a Volvo SUV.

00:27:49   and I can tell you in Aaron's Volvo,

00:27:53   the HVAC controls are on the touchscreen

00:27:55   and mine have a physical dial that you twist.

00:27:59   And only one of those cars can I adjust the temperature

00:28:02   without looking down and it's my car.

00:28:04   And those one of those--

00:28:05   - In the Tesla, before the stupid software update

00:28:08   last winter, in the Tesla you could have done that

00:28:11   because the controls-- - You're just saying

00:28:13   the controls are always visible.

00:28:14   - It was in the corner, it's right there.

00:28:16   You could literally just reach down and boot.

00:28:18   I'm telling you, after driving one of these for many years,

00:28:21   I was just as fast with that as I ever was

00:28:23   with physical controls in any of my other vehicles.

00:28:24   - I call foul.

00:28:25   - I think that's the type of thing you need to test,

00:28:27   but I can tell you in car reviews,

00:28:28   everybody hates it when the HVAC controls are touched.

00:28:31   Yes, almost all the car manufacturers

00:28:33   make them visible all the time.

00:28:34   They dedicate a part of the screen to it,

00:28:35   it never changes, it's got,

00:28:36   and they even lay them out like physical controls.

00:28:38   They're always there, they have the temperature things,

00:28:42   they have the different,

00:28:43   it's almost like they took a picture

00:28:45   of the physical controls and just made it on the touchscreen.

00:28:47   Some of them even have haptics,

00:28:49   so you can actually tell when you push the button

00:28:50   so you don't have to look down to see the button highlight,

00:28:52   and yet they are universally reviled

00:28:54   in favor of actual physical buttons for those controls.

00:28:57   Is that just old phogism?

00:28:59   Maybe, but these are car reviewers

00:29:01   and they spend a lot of times in these cars,

00:29:02   they don't just drive them for five minutes, right?

00:29:04   So I'd have to think that there's something to the idea

00:29:08   that even with no nesting,

00:29:10   even with entirely visible controls,

00:29:12   even with years spent in knowing exactly where it is,

00:29:14   that it's still ever so slightly more distracting,

00:29:17   slower to do the touch screens.

00:29:19   That may have to do with responsiveness.

00:29:21   It could be if we get good haptic feedback on screens

00:29:23   and they're very responsive and people have the confidence

00:29:26   that when the same confidence they have

00:29:27   of pressing a button, 'cause when you press a button

00:29:29   or turn a dial, there's that physical feedback

00:29:32   through your body that gives you the confidence

00:29:33   that you're doing the thing you thought you were doing.

00:29:35   If you can get a touch screen that is that responsive

00:29:38   and that communicative, then yes, I agree,

00:29:39   a fixed set of functions that never goes away

00:29:41   that is that communicative will be equivalent to physical,

00:29:44   but we're definitely not there yet with current cars.

00:29:47   Most of them don't even have any sort of haptic feedback

00:29:49   and let alone haptic feedback that is as reliable

00:29:52   and reassuring as turning a knob

00:29:54   or pressing a physical button.

00:29:56   That's why the Fords have a big giant plastic knob

00:29:58   poking out of the middle of their touch screen

00:30:00   for a bunch of functions.

00:30:01   You know, I don't know why that's why they have it,

00:30:04   but they do have that and I think people like it

00:30:06   and car reviewers like it as well.

00:30:08   I think that's a silly solution.

00:30:09   I think it's better if you're gonna have physical controls,

00:30:11   just don't shove them in the center of your screen,

00:30:13   But whatever, I do think that the trend of putting more

00:30:19   and more stuff on touch screens, part of it is fads and fashions

00:30:22   and looking high tech, and part of it is cost savings.

00:30:24   And both of those reasons are not the right reason

00:30:27   to be doing that.

00:30:27   The only reason to be moving things to the touch screen

00:30:29   is because they're better in measurable ways,

00:30:33   in enough measurable ways than the physical equivalent.

00:30:35   And right now, that is not the motivating factor

00:30:37   for touch screens in cars.

00:30:38   It's the other two things 90% of the time.

00:30:41   Oh, yeah, and I agree.

00:30:42   like physical controls, I would rather have them,

00:30:44   and they are the nicer and probably better option

00:30:47   in many ways, but I think the difference between

00:30:51   a control that has a physical knob or button

00:30:54   versus a touchscreen that is well-designed

00:30:57   where things are always unpredictable spots

00:30:58   that you can learn, I don't think that's that big

00:31:01   of a difference, as much as you guys are saying.

00:31:02   - Oh, I disagree so much.

00:31:04   I disagree so much, 'cause I put it--

00:31:06   - And what would I know, I've only used these cars

00:31:08   for years. (laughs)

00:31:09   - Well, but here's the thing, though,

00:31:11   But you're getting myopic because you're used to the Tesla

00:31:14   and nothing else.

00:31:16   So I put a link to a picture--

00:31:18   - That's like saying like when the iPhone first came out,

00:31:20   oh, touch screens are crappy

00:31:22   because all the other touch screens on the market suck.

00:31:24   - No, no, that's not what I'm saying.

00:31:25   - Like you could make a good one.

00:31:27   - No, no, no, no, no, you're missing my point.

00:31:28   So I put a link in the show notes,

00:31:29   and this is not my picture,

00:31:30   but this is a picture of Aaron's Volvo.

00:31:33   I'm sorry, an equivalent to Aaron's Volvo.

00:31:35   And you can see in a huge font in the two bottom corners

00:31:38   are the temperature,

00:31:39   which just so happens to be 69 degrees, nice.

00:31:41   So those numbers never leave the screen.

00:31:46   They are always there, always.

00:31:48   They are always there.

00:31:50   And I find it so much easier

00:31:52   to adjust the temperature on my car

00:31:54   where I can blindly reach down and twist

00:31:57   than having to tap that number

00:32:00   and then reach up to the plus button

00:32:03   that I know is roughly, I know roughly where it is,

00:32:05   but I have to plus, plus, plus, plus,

00:32:07   or minus, minus, minus, minus.

00:32:08   - That's a nested control.

00:32:09   That's not what Margo was talking about.

00:32:10   - Yeah, like the old Tesla design,

00:32:11   it had the up and down arrows right on the number.

00:32:14   - They're always there.

00:32:15   And that's what I was saying,

00:32:16   the car reviewers really hate that.

00:32:18   They really hate it when the supposedly new Ferrari

00:32:20   has touchscreen controls for climate.

00:32:22   And they're the Tesla style, always visible,

00:32:25   no nesting, no pop-up menu.

00:32:27   Like it's, again, just like you took a picture

00:32:29   of the physical controls and painted it onto the screen.

00:32:32   - All right, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I--

00:32:35   - The Volvo interface is bad

00:32:36   because it's making you do a sub-menu, that's terrible.

00:32:38   Oh, no, agree. I'm not trying to defend the Volvo interface.

00:32:40   What I'm trying to say is I live this, I go back and forth several times a week.

00:32:45   I'll be either driving Aaron's car or in Aaron's car, and then other days I'll be in my car.

00:32:50   So I am going back and forth weekly, and I see and live the differences between the two.

00:32:55   And for something like HVAC, oh my gosh, give me a physical control, please, and thank you.

00:33:00   - We are sponsored this week by Snap AR.

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00:34:56   That's SnapAR.com.

00:34:58   Thank you so much to SnapAR for sponsoring our show.

00:35:02   (upbeat music)

00:35:05   - Let's do some feedback.

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00:35:21   I worked on the S3 team in the earlier years.

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00:35:26   to make it unambiguous that other products,

00:35:28   even competitors, could clone the API.

00:35:30   I think this was maybe 2009.

00:35:32   our director realized we had an opportunity to define the de facto standard API, as John

00:35:36   articulated well, I think it was like two episodes ago. We knew it was a win for us

00:35:41   when other products advertised an S3 compatible API. Not long after Google Cloud launched,

00:35:47   they not only copied our API, but also error codes in parts of our documentation. This

00:35:50   was all back before AWS even provided a supposed client library. The executive team didn't

00:35:55   want to have to deal with version updates, library compatibility, et cetera. It took

00:35:58   a long time to convince them that AWS should provide a client library with a dedicated

00:36:01   team to support it. So thank you, Anonymous.

00:36:04   >> And when they did, it was 19,000 lines of PHP or whatever the hell it was.

00:36:10   >> Oh, goodness. All right. So let's talk about CarPlay navigation voice volume. And

00:36:15   I'm not really sure what to make of this or particularly the second half of this, but

00:36:19   the first half makes sense. Daniel Finley writes, "There used to be a setting in maps

00:36:23   to adjust the volume, but this has since been removed in iOS 15." And there's an old 9to5

00:36:28   Mac link that we'll put in the show notes about that. But John, tell me about the second

00:36:30   half of this which I'm a little confused about.

00:36:31   - Actually for the first one it's fun because like the setting that used to be in Maps,

00:36:35   apparently you can still search for it in settings and the match will come up.

00:36:38   - Nice.

00:36:39   - But when you tap the search results it doesn't take you anywhere.

00:36:42   - Solid.

00:36:43   - The setting has been removed, right.

00:36:44   All right, so this, Josh Biggs has this feedback.

00:36:47   Series volume on CarPlay can only be adjusted while Siri is speaking from the driver's side

00:36:52   volume control on the steering wheel.

00:36:53   So they're saying like, "Well, all the things that we tried."

00:36:55   No, no, no, not only do you have to change it while it's speaking, not only do you have

00:36:58   - Well, we told you that.

00:36:59   You can't change it on the phone,

00:37:01   and you can't change it on the console,

00:37:03   you can only change it with the steering wheel control.

00:37:05   - Yeah, see that's new to me.

00:37:06   - Which I'm not entirely sure I tried that,

00:37:08   I'm not entirely sure I believe that.

00:37:10   Lots of people sent me, like we saw last week,

00:37:11   you know, pictures of all my Toyota

00:37:13   has a thing called voice and it has this option for,

00:37:15   no, this Toyota did not have that option.

00:37:17   Now this was a fleet car, it was a rental,

00:37:19   it's different than other things.

00:37:20   People ask me why I didn't use the built-in nav.

00:37:21   There was no built-in nav.

00:37:23   When you went to the built-in nav thing,

00:37:24   it's like, you should option navigation,

00:37:26   contact Toyota or whatever.

00:37:27   So fleet cars are different or whatever,

00:37:29   but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have worked either.

00:37:32   - That is really, really weird.

00:37:34   - But just FYI, if you happen to have a car

00:37:36   and you tried all the things we listed before,

00:37:38   here's one more to try.

00:37:40   Law series-speaking, steering wheel control only.

00:37:42   Seems unlikely, but try it.

00:37:44   - If somebody can independently verify this

00:37:47   one way or the other, I'd love to know,

00:37:48   because I'm not trying to say that Josh Biggs is wrong,

00:37:51   but that's the person who wrote in,

00:37:53   but this strikes me as extraordinarily unusual.

00:37:56   So Josh very well may be right,

00:37:59   but I would love to have some independent--

00:38:00   - Yeah, it'd be totally dumb if it was true,

00:38:02   'cause what sense does that make?

00:38:03   None.

00:38:04   - Right, exactly.

00:38:05   It's not Josh that I have a problem with, it's Toyota.

00:38:08   Matt Rigby writes, and actually,

00:38:10   before I get to Matt Rigby's feedback,

00:38:12   I would like to thank everyone for the kind notes

00:38:15   about our baby, how do you get ready for a baby discussion.

00:38:19   There were a lot of people that said

00:38:20   some very, very kind things,

00:38:21   and I will speak for all three of us

00:38:23   in saying we really appreciate that,

00:38:24   and that was very kind of you.

00:38:25   Now, specifically with Matt Rigby's feedback,

00:38:27   I'm writing on behalf of my partner, who is a postpartum doula, to say that postpartum

00:38:31   doulas are a thing. They can fulfill a ton of the needs you touched on, especially for

00:38:35   new parents who have recently moved and are without social connections or far away from

00:38:38   family. Or just for new parents who have trouble letting in someone they'd otherwise be asking

00:38:43   in favor of. Unlike a birth doula, postpartum doulas work mostly with families once they're

00:38:47   home from the hospital or have had the baby. They can assist with things like recommendations

00:38:51   of medical specialists and local groups while you're too overwhelmed to look, basic coaching

00:38:55   for new parents, coming over and running a load of laundry,

00:38:57   watching a new baby for 30 minutes,

00:38:58   bringing over snacks, prepared meals, et cetera.

00:39:01   They usually work on a sliding scale that's,

00:39:02   shall we say, cheaper than software developers.

00:39:05   You can read more at donut.org,

00:39:07   and we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:39:09   - Yeah, I can strongly, I didn't do a postpartum doula

00:39:12   over here because I didn't frankly know those existed,

00:39:14   but we did have a regular doula for the birth process

00:39:18   and the lead up to it, and she proved

00:39:21   to be extremely helpful, and they're basically

00:39:24   like kind of birth coaches and they can teach you

00:39:29   through the process, they can answer a lot of questions

00:39:30   beforehand and then during the process they can

00:39:34   not only help you through it and coach you through it

00:39:35   but also kind of be an advocate for you

00:39:38   in terms of what's going on medically and stuff

00:39:41   and that's also extremely valuable.

00:39:43   So I can recommend looking into that if you can

00:39:45   and if you can find somebody good.

00:39:47   - It's kind of like getting a lawyer to represent you

00:39:49   or when you're doing real estate, what is it called?

00:39:51   Like a buyer's agent?

00:39:52   like someone involved in the process who actually has your needs, who's actually representing you.

00:39:57   And you would think, "Oh, my doctor has my needs in mind," but actually having a doula to advocate

00:40:01   for you during labor and delivery is incredibly useful because they know what they're doing,

00:40:06   they have experience with it, and you may not be—neither one of you may be in the best position to

00:40:11   advocate for what you want and need in the strongest way. It's good to have someone with

00:40:17   experience. And then a postpartum doula, I also didn't know it was a thing. I'm sure my wife

00:40:22   did, but that's why we put this feedback in there. Now you listener know as well.

00:40:25   So I think we might,

00:40:28   might be able to avoid a 45 minute discussion about the app channels this week,

00:40:32   but I would like to know, no promises, Marco.

00:40:35   I would like to know how,

00:40:38   how your test went of recording the 4k Fios channel,

00:40:43   uh, standby banner to, to recap.

00:40:46   We were unsure whether or not if you set channels to record the channels app,

00:40:51   to record the Fios channel that broadcasts in 4K,

00:40:54   to record they're like,

00:40:55   "Hey, we're not airing anything right now."

00:40:57   Would that come through as 4K, yes or no?

00:41:00   And you said you would give it a shot,

00:41:01   and apparently you have.

00:41:02   - I did, and it's not, it's 1080.

00:41:04   Now, it wasn't a broadcast, it was just a banner thing.

00:41:07   So, and if you look at the banner,

00:41:08   it lists a broadcast that is in the past.

00:41:11   So I'm not sure what the deal is, but no, 1080, so far.

00:41:14   I'll try it if I ever catch it in a broadcast.

00:41:16   - Yeah, I would like to,

00:41:17   I would not be surprised necessarily

00:41:19   if it did not record in 4K,

00:41:21   but I did ask my buddy John about it,

00:41:23   and I'm pretty sure he said

00:41:24   that it should come through as 4K, but no promises.

00:41:27   And then, so we got some really good feedback

00:41:29   from Colin Weir that had a map attached to it

00:41:34   that it makes my skin crawl.

00:41:36   I'm offended by how awful this map is,

00:41:39   but let me talk about the feedback.

00:41:40   So Colin Weir writes, "To get 4K over the air,

00:41:42   "you need to live in a market

00:41:43   "where your local channels have upgraded to ATSC 3.0.

00:41:47   "These deployments are few and far between,

00:41:48   and much like cable, the content is not widely available.

00:41:50   Even if your local network is broadcasting ATSC 3.0,

00:41:53   most of the content is probably still 720p.

00:41:56   And so Colin provides a link to a website

00:41:59   where this god-awful map exists.

00:42:02   And if you're not American,

00:42:03   this probably won't be quite as offensive to you,

00:42:05   but this map doesn't have any intelligible boundaries

00:42:09   for the purposes of locating yourself.

00:42:11   Like, I understand these boundaries.

00:42:13   - Can you not find yourself on a map of the US?

00:42:16   I mean, roughly, but my state is not a wee little state

00:42:20   like yours is, mine is relatively large,

00:42:22   and I don't live in a extreme--

00:42:23   - You don't know where you are in that state?

00:42:24   You're just somewhere in there?

00:42:25   - Looking at this map, no, I don't know where I am

00:42:27   in this state, I think I'm in the northern section, but--

00:42:29   - I think you need to brush up on your geography.

00:42:30   Maybe you get one of those map of the United States puzzles

00:42:32   where you have little wooden pieces shaped by each state.

00:42:34   - Yeah, we have it, we have it.

00:42:35   - Like, I don't know where you are in this state,

00:42:36   but that's, you know, I'm allowed to not know.

00:42:38   - Yeah, 'cause we don't live there.

00:42:39   - Ah, well anyway, I don't know, I hate this map.

00:42:41   I viscerally hate this map, but be that as it may,

00:42:44   this is useful feedback and I do appreciate it.

00:42:46   So do you live in one of these areas?

00:42:47   'Cause I'm not even gonna try to guess for you.

00:42:49   - No, so the three categories in a legend are

00:42:51   on the air with ATSC 3.0, I guess that's the good one.

00:42:54   It's like, you've got it, you've got ATSC 3.0,

00:42:56   good for you, that's orange.

00:42:57   Then readying broadcast is blue

00:43:00   and then announced target market is blackish or dark blue.

00:43:04   Both of those colors mean you don't got it.

00:43:06   And it's just a question of when will it come, who knows?

00:43:08   And then there's gray areas, which is like,

00:43:10   Not even on anyone's radar.

00:43:11   No timeline announced, tough luck to you.

00:43:14   - My island is gray.

00:43:17   - Yeah, where I live is blue,

00:43:18   which means readying broadcast.

00:43:20   So I don't know how long they're gonna be readying,

00:43:21   but who knows.

00:43:24   Colin continues, the best way to get high quality

00:43:25   4K content is to have it fall off a truck.

00:43:27   Yes, we all know that.

00:43:29   Most non-4K over cables, probably three to four megabits.

00:43:31   Netflix 4K stream is 25 megabits,

00:43:33   and Blu-ray is around 60 megabits.

00:43:35   I'm assuming that's per second,

00:43:37   to just give you idea of the relative qualities.

00:43:39   So Mike C. Wells in the chat has given me a link

00:43:43   to a different part of ATSC.org where it says,

00:43:47   "All seven of Richmond-Petersburg's

00:43:49   full power local television stations

00:43:51   have begun broadcasting with the next gen,

00:43:53   AKA ATSC 3.0 signals."

00:43:55   So apparently such a thing exists here in town.

00:43:57   I had no idea, but that does indicate to me

00:43:59   that I was able to read the map

00:44:00   and say that I was in the orange section.

00:44:01   So, ha!

00:44:02   - You were in one of the orange things.

00:44:04   Good for you.

00:44:05   - All right.

00:44:05   So I guess I would need a new antenna

00:44:08   Maybe a new HD home run?

00:44:10   I don't even know, actually, what I would need

00:44:11   in order to get this.

00:44:13   Somebody tell me.

00:44:14   Reach out via Twitter.

00:44:15   All right, moving along.

00:44:17   Let's see here.

00:44:19   Okay, so audio and video sync.

00:44:20   We got a lot of feedback about this,

00:44:22   including from former feedbacker Matt Rigby

00:44:25   from just a few minutes ago.

00:44:27   He apparently is a dialogue and ADR editor

00:44:30   and has his own page on IMDB,

00:44:33   which I just think is the coolest thing in the world.

00:44:36   But anyways, Matt Rigby writes,

00:44:38   "Your friendly neighborhood dialogue and ADR editor here

00:44:40   writing in again to say when it comes to syncing audio

00:44:42   and video playback delay, there's an app for that."

00:44:45   And Matt was far from the only person who recommended

00:44:47   Catch and Sync.

00:44:49   And so I've not used this, but apparently it's an app

00:44:52   that helps with this sort of thing.

00:44:54   So Matt continues, "This was introduced to me

00:44:56   by our chief engineer here at PostWorks New York

00:44:58   and has been used to calibrate mixed rooms

00:44:59   where we've done multiple Apple, HBO, Netflix,

00:45:01   A24, et cetera, shows and movies.

00:45:03   John's instinct to align the attack of your beep was correct.

00:45:07   I usually do the first fully white frames since projectors and TVs are running

00:45:11   slower than 120 frames per second when you get a half frame or two first and

00:45:15   with the very peak of the wave form. Oh, and Fred,

00:45:17   your edification it took me two to three years of doing this full time

00:45:20   professionally to be able to reliably tell which direction something was out of

00:45:23   sync and move it correctly and still about one third or so at the time I'm wrong

00:45:26   in the first try. Yeah. So catch and sink. I think that's a kitchen sink pun.

00:45:31   That's my best guess.

00:45:32   - Oh, I get it, I get it.

00:45:34   - 'Cause I don't think it's a term, an industry term.

00:45:36   It's just someone, whatever.

00:45:38   I don't know why you're catching this anchor or whatever.

00:45:40   So I use this app.

00:45:42   We should read the next item

00:45:45   and then I'll tell you my experiences with it.

00:45:46   - So Andrew Gibbons writes, John asks,

00:45:48   at what point do I want to align to the zero?

00:45:51   Look at the source.

00:45:52   Download the YouTube video and open it in iMovie

00:45:54   or Final Cut Pro.

00:45:55   Where did they align the zero?

00:45:58   That is the same place you want to align it.

00:45:59   - So this is the question I had last time.

00:46:01   It's like I've got a video timeline and I've got an audio timeline and the audio timeline has like a lump

00:46:06   Where are the you know, you've got the tack and decay of the beep noise, you know

00:46:09   This is all stretched out and elongated because it's 240 frames per second me recording my television screen, right?

00:46:14   And what I'm trying to do is line up the video where it shows like, you know

00:46:20   The white bar in the middle of the line with and make the audio waveform line up

00:46:24   But the audio waveform was like an inch wide

00:46:26   And I've got you know that one frame of video

00:46:28   Where do I align the audio waveform and Andrews answer was look at the source video that you're playing like the thing that's playing on

00:46:35   Your TV put that video into your editor and look at what where they aligned it

00:46:41   So you'll see the audio waveform in the source video and then you'll see you know

00:46:45   Where what part of the waveform did they line it up with now? Here's where things start getting awful. So first, let's let's take a look at this

00:46:52   You just pull up that image

00:46:55   This is the source audio file

00:46:58   with no adjustments to it whatsoever.

00:47:02   I have moved the play head,

00:47:04   first of all look at the audio wave forms,

00:47:05   look how beautiful they are.

00:47:07   - Yeah, that's very good.

00:47:08   - They are vertical lines, they don't have any attack,

00:47:10   it's just like instant loudest volume

00:47:12   and then there's like a little parabolic decay, right?

00:47:14   And this is with the play head lined up

00:47:16   exactly at the beginning of that noise.

00:47:18   Would you look at the video above it please?

00:47:20   - It's not lined up.

00:47:21   - Not even close.

00:47:22   - The mark is not on the zero.

00:47:24   - Oh my gosh.

00:47:25   - The mark, so I have it lined up exactly the beginning

00:47:28   but the mark is like at 35 milliseconds past the zero.

00:47:32   So I'm like, all right, what the heck is going on here?

00:47:34   Maybe that's what they built into that.

00:47:35   Basically again, this is a YouTube video.

00:47:37   Maybe they're telling you to eyeball it,

00:47:39   so maybe they did this because they know people

00:47:40   are always a little bit late or whatever.

00:47:42   Like maybe that's just something they did on purpose, right?

00:47:45   But then I'm like, aha, but wait a second.

00:47:46   I downloaded this off YouTube with like YouTube DL,

00:47:50   and I think I did like a, you know, H.265 recording.

00:47:53   I need to get like the source thing.

00:47:54   The source thing is WebM.

00:47:56   So I'm like, let me just look at the WebM.

00:47:57   I don't want to convert it.

00:47:58   Maybe the conversion does something weird

00:48:00   because we're talking about minor, minor things here.

00:48:02   So I downloaded the WebM and then I had to find something

00:48:04   that can show the WebM with a timeline.

00:48:06   So here is the WebM file.

00:48:08   Now look at the waveform now.

00:48:10   It looks very different because this is a different editor.

00:48:12   It's not an iMovie, but it's an editor

00:48:13   that natively understands WebM.

00:48:15   And again, it's got similar shape

00:48:17   and you can line up with exactly the frame

00:48:18   before the sound is.

00:48:19   - That's closer.

00:48:20   - It's closer, but it's still not on the zero.

00:48:22   I'm like, God damn it, what?

00:48:24   What?

00:48:25   And so I'm like, okay, but this is just some,

00:48:27   I had to find an editor that understands WebM.

00:48:30   I don't know if this editor is any good or better,

00:48:32   so I found a second editor that understands WebM.

00:48:35   And here is what that looked like.

00:48:38   - Oh.

00:48:39   - Now it's in the other direction

00:48:41   at negative 100 milliseconds.

00:48:43   - That's a big difference.

00:48:44   - Oh my word. - This is the same file.

00:48:46   This is the source WebM file

00:48:49   downloaded directly from YouTube,

00:48:50   and I'm putting the same file in two different editors.

00:48:52   And these are not small differences.

00:48:53   When the total delay that I'm putting in

00:48:55   is in the range of 100 milliseconds,

00:48:57   a delta of like plus 35 and minus 100 milliseconds,

00:49:02   just everything is out the window, right?

00:49:04   So, catch and sync.

00:49:06   Originally I didn't plan to mess with it,

00:49:08   'cause I'm like, I don't need that,

00:49:09   I did my own way and it's fine.

00:49:10   And it's also like 20 bucks or something, right?

00:49:12   And I did launch it and you can try to demo it,

00:49:14   I'm like, ah, this app seems a little bit janky.

00:49:16   But after this experience, I'm like, all right,

00:49:18   catch and sync, you're up.

00:49:19   (laughing)

00:49:22   And they give you a bunch of test videos

00:49:24   that you can download as files

00:49:25   at different frame rates and stuff.

00:49:27   They don't put any of those videos on YouTube or something.

00:49:29   In theory, I could upload one to YouTube,

00:49:31   but that would go through all sorts of processing steps

00:49:33   or whatever, so instead I just put these video files

00:49:36   in my Synology and I played them with Infuse,

00:49:38   which is the thing that does the decoding on your device.

00:49:40   Anyway, they have them in ProRes and H.264.

00:49:43   I tried a whole bunch of different things.

00:49:44   I played them, I used Catch and Sync.

00:49:46   This app has one of the most frustrating interfaces

00:49:49   I've ever used on an iOS app in my life.

00:49:51   Right, so it forces you into landscape mode.

00:49:55   A lot of the things you need to do involve using controls

00:49:58   that overlap with the gripper bar in iOS 15.

00:50:02   You know that thing on the bottom, like the horizontal bar?

00:50:04   If you take that bar and you swipe it sideways,

00:50:06   you'll go to another app like that.

00:50:09   But you have to swipe sideways to mess with the timeline.

00:50:11   So it doesn't seem to understand that bar is there.

00:50:13   And then it's got frame advance,

00:50:15   forward back buttons on the left side of the UI

00:50:18   with touch targets that are so small that when you sit there,

00:50:21   speaking of trying to use touch targets to do things,

00:50:23   when you're using a touch target going frame,

00:50:24   frame, frame, frame, frame,

00:50:25   Inevitably, when you're getting close to lining things up

00:50:28   the way you want them, you will miss tap by like a millimeter

00:50:31   and tapping anywhere outside those buttons

00:50:33   will tell the video to play.

00:50:34   And then it will just play and mess up your position.

00:50:36   Then you have to try to scroll it back to the right position.

00:50:37   Oh, you switched out of the app again accidentally.

00:50:39   Switch back to the app in the multitasking squisher,

00:50:42   get the thing lined up carefully,

00:50:43   avoiding the little bar at the bottom,

00:50:45   tap frame, tap, tap, tap, tap, one more.

00:50:47   Oh, no, it started playing again.

00:50:49   I hate this app with a fiery patch.

00:50:51   I don't know if anybody uses it.

00:50:53   It's like it has one job.

00:50:54   Make the touch targets like half the freaking screen,

00:50:57   frame forward, frame advance.

00:50:58   I should not be able to, anyway, ignoring all of that,

00:51:02   this app, one of the things this app has on its page

00:51:06   is per device offsets, it says, by the way,

00:51:11   we've measured somehow and determined that

00:51:14   for these hardware devices and this OS,

00:51:17   there is an inherent delta for the phone itself

00:51:21   in terms of when you, because remember,

00:51:22   you're holding the phone up

00:51:23   and recording your television screen in a movie,

00:51:25   there is an inherent delay in the phone itself.

00:51:28   And it tells you, find your phone,

00:51:30   so mine is iPhone 11 Pro, iOS 15,

00:51:33   and the delta is plus 15 milliseconds.

00:51:35   And you can go to settings in the app

00:51:36   and add the plus 15 milliseconds.

00:51:37   I'm not sure where they're getting a number, but whatever.

00:51:39   So I did that, and then I used this app

00:51:42   to try to line up the timings of everything.

00:51:45   And you will not be shocked to learn

00:51:46   that it had a different number

00:51:47   than every other thing that I've tried.

00:51:49   Right?

00:51:50   Now, it was in the ballpark.

00:51:53   Like if I did it with my current settings,

00:51:55   the delta was 10 or 20 milliseconds.

00:52:00   And so what I ended up doing is I used catch and--

00:52:02   Previously, for example, I just did one input, Apple TV.

00:52:04   My Apple TV input, as measured by my previous technique

00:52:07   with the iMovie, was 120 milliseconds.

00:52:10   According to catch and sync, catch and sync, whatever,

00:52:12   according to catch and sync, after I fought with it

00:52:14   and cursed at it for a while,

00:52:16   it thinks the delta should be about 150 milliseconds.

00:52:20   So I changed it to 150.

00:52:21   I'm gonna live with it for a week

00:52:23   see if I notice a difference.

00:52:24   'Cause it didn't tell me you're off by 100

00:52:26   in either direction, it told me you're close.

00:52:28   But, you know, and again, this is with the 15 milliseconds

00:52:31   like inbuilt delay that I did according to this webpage

00:52:33   that tells me you should do that for an iPhone 11 Pro.

00:52:36   All of this just is very frustrating

00:52:39   because there are so many pieces of hardware and software

00:52:41   in the chain and the, like, what you're doing

00:52:44   is such a fine adjustment, right,

00:52:48   that any kind of thing that adds a little bit

00:52:51   moves a little bit or is a little bit off just throws the whole thing off because like the margin

00:52:55   of error is equal to the size of the adjustment you're making practically which is one way of

00:52:59   telling me don't worry about this it's probably not that big a deal but you know i did notice

00:53:03   when it was off and i did notice when i improved it uh more updates next week oh my gosh all right

00:53:11   continuing joshua shoal writes uh executive summary for lip sync try to error on the side

00:53:16   of audio slightly behind the video, preferably 10 to 20 milliseconds. Joshua writes, "I work in

00:53:21   the cabin automation industry. We design and build computerized systems that go in aircraft and

00:53:25   attempt to marry up modern technology features like Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, HDMI, etc. with the Byzantine

00:53:30   FAA certification process so that billionaires can have surround sound and watch Netflix on their

00:53:33   private airplanes." This sounds like the most fascinating and infuriating job in the world.

00:53:39   But anyway, Joshua continues, "Your brain is much faster at receiving inputs from sight than sound.

00:53:44   When you stop and think about it, the mechanisms make a certain amount of sense.

00:53:47   Sight is pretty much all electromagnetism. Hearing involves some mechanical interfaces in your ear.

00:53:51   As a result, brains are used to sound slightly lagging sight. I know this is based on some

00:53:55   actual research, but I'd have to dig that up. Industry received wisdom, and our requirements

00:54:00   lead to settings for that sound no more than 10 milliseconds ahead of video,

00:54:05   but easily as much as 40 milliseconds behind. Having sound slightly behind is far more ideal

00:54:11   than a head.

00:54:12   So this is interesting advice in terms of, hey, if there's going to be a margin of error,

00:54:17   try to err on the side of the sound lagging.

00:54:19   I'm not sure entirely by the reasoning here, though.

00:54:23   The thing about, okay, well, you've got air pressure waves have to move your eardrum,

00:54:28   which moves little hairs inside your ears.

00:54:29   That's all true, and the electromagnetism interface for eyes in theory could potentially

00:54:34   be faster.

00:54:35   But here's the thing.

00:54:36   When a human is talking to you from across the room, the sound comes out of their mouth

00:54:41   in sync with their lip movements.

00:54:43   It doesn't reach you in sync

00:54:45   because you see their lips before,

00:54:47   assuming your interface was equally whatever.

00:54:50   But the thing making the sound,

00:54:53   your lips, that P, that plosive comes out

00:54:55   when your lips do the P thing.

00:54:56   Like there's no question about that.

00:54:58   So one way to think of this,

00:54:59   and I think it is a reasonable way,

00:55:01   is to say your television should act like a person.

00:55:03   When the person on the television

00:55:05   makes a plosive with their mouth,

00:55:07   that's when the P sound should come out of the television.

00:55:10   And if you're seated really, really far away

00:55:12   from the television, yes, the sound will get to you later

00:55:14   than the light does, right, because of the speed difference.

00:55:17   But that's exactly the same as it would be

00:55:18   if a person was over there.

00:55:20   That being said, I think what most of us are used to

00:55:24   may not be that, because when we watch someone on television,

00:55:27   first of all, half of it's ADR,

00:55:28   so there's not even a connection

00:55:29   between the person's lips and what they're saying.

00:55:31   But second of all, that's why I was saying

00:55:33   adjust it when you're on your couch.

00:55:35   You might want it to be in sync

00:55:37   as if you were sitting as close to the person

00:55:39   as you visibly are, 'cause when you see a headshot on a TV,

00:55:41   that person's head on a 65-inch TV is like three feet high.

00:55:45   So it's like you are sitting close,

00:55:47   it's like that person is not 10 feet from you.

00:55:49   They're whatever distance they would be for their head

00:55:51   to be three feet high in your field of vision,

00:55:53   and that's why I'm adjusting it

00:55:54   from the seating position on my couch

00:55:56   and not adjusting it as if it was a person

00:55:58   who was standing where my television is,

00:55:59   because their head would be much smaller in that case.

00:56:01   Anyway, this is a very complicated topic.

00:56:03   I'm glad to know the wisdom that, hey,

00:56:06   if you are on one side or the other, make the sound lag,

00:56:08   And that's kind of why I'm trying the 150,

00:56:10   because that's a little bit more delay in the sound,

00:56:12   and I'm gonna see if that feels better.

00:56:14   - All right, tell me about TiVo ad skipping, if you please.

00:56:17   - I wasn't giving a being fair to TiVo.

00:56:19   My wife informed me that if you have the new interface,

00:56:21   which I don't like, TiVo will auto skip ads.

00:56:24   It still won't do it in the iPad app, which is annoying,

00:56:26   but only my old downstairs TiVo won't do auto skipping,

00:56:28   but the new interface will.

00:56:30   - If I had known this was more TiVo love,

00:56:32   I wouldn't have admitted it in the show notes.

00:56:34   Speaking of, I am not kidding you,

00:56:36   I refuse to read the following feedback.

00:56:38   I will not because I disagree with it so much.

00:56:41   - I will read it just because I feel like this is--

00:56:44   - This is amazing.

00:56:45   - It's just one person's opinion,

00:56:47   but it is very strong opinion.

00:56:49   - I disagree with this so much.

00:56:51   I will not read it.

00:56:53   - Here we go, this is from Jason Smith.

00:56:54   "For over 10 years, I ran an HD home run for tuner setup

00:56:59   to record over the air TV using antenna in my attic.

00:57:01   I use a product called Sage TV and later a channel setup.

00:57:04   There is not a human being on earth

00:57:06   I would recommend this to.

00:57:07   Walton Brown is famous for his hate of unitaskers in the kitchen, but a TiVo or god forbid a

00:57:12   cable company DVR is always a better option than this.

00:57:15   Do you like people in your house asking why can't we watch TV like normal people?

00:57:19   Do you like troubleshooting some insane issue where the fragile Faberge egg of your home

00:57:22   set up you created needs troubleshooting and robs all of your free time from you on the

00:57:26   weekend?

00:57:27   Do you like doing tech support over the phone when you're out of the house and explaining

00:57:30   to your significant other, "Okay, the TV will work again soon, but you need to restart the

00:57:34   the sonology. Hopefully they will buy a Vibra Slap and randomly at three in the morning

00:57:38   play it loudly in your ear to wake you up to remind you that you chose the worst option

00:57:41   for managing TV. Don't get me started on managing files. John's wife is 100% correct in her

00:57:46   desire to not have the channel server running on her computer. Her computer should not be

00:57:49   the source of entertainment for the family that has to be up all the time in order for

00:57:52   the rest of them to watch TV. Every iteration of a home-based DVR setup is bad and always

00:57:56   will be. This is a job for an appliance."

00:57:59   - Jason has very strong opinions.

00:58:01   I mean, he has 10 years experience with it,

00:58:04   and you can say, "Well, you used the bad software.

00:58:06   "It's much better now," or whatever,

00:58:08   but it sounds like this is not something

00:58:09   he tried on a weekend.

00:58:11   - No, this is incredible.

00:58:13   I mean, look, haven't we all been guilty

00:58:15   of setting up complicated technical solutions

00:58:19   in our houses that really--

00:58:21   - Mark Casey, he's never done that.

00:58:22   What are you talking about?

00:58:23   - Marco, I'm still thinking about fiber.

00:58:24   I'm still thinking about fiber.

00:58:26   No, I'm not guilty of this at all.

00:58:27   But no, I genuinely, like of all the things

00:58:31   that have gone wrong with my setup,

00:58:33   all of which were self-created,

00:58:34   about the only thing that I don't think

00:58:36   is ever broken is channels.

00:58:38   And I'm not trying to say Jason's lying,

00:58:39   I'm not trying to say he's even wrong necessarily,

00:58:42   but his lived experience is so the polar opposite of mine

00:58:46   that I just, I can't wrap my head around it.

00:58:49   - Well, people have different experiences with tech

00:58:51   and I could definitely feel where he's come from.

00:58:54   One thing I didn't mention last time,

00:58:56   which is, I feel like a reasonably big advantage of TiVo

00:59:01   and other kind of all-in-one things is,

00:59:03   I mean, it's right in the thing I did say many times,

00:59:07   channels and setups like that have modular components, right?

00:59:09   So you get to pick and choose which they are,

00:59:10   you have a lot of flexibility,

00:59:12   you can be more cost-effective that way,

00:59:14   has lots of advantages,

00:59:15   but one of the disadvantages,

00:59:17   that because the components are modular,

00:59:19   that means they're separate,

00:59:20   and that means you need to communicate between them.

00:59:21   With TiVo, the cable goes into the TiVo box,

00:59:24   And in that same box is the hard drive

00:59:27   that will record it and the thing that will decode it.

00:59:28   So there's no network traffic throughout your house

00:59:31   of whatever that signal is.

00:59:32   The network traffic is entirely within the TiVo

00:59:35   because the video goes in there,

00:59:36   and other than if you're watching on your iPad

00:59:38   or something upstairs, but the video goes in there

00:59:40   and the hard drive is right in the same box.

00:59:42   So you do not need to send X number of megabits of video

00:59:46   wandering across your house.

00:59:47   Whereas if you do the channels method

00:59:48   and you have things spread out,

00:59:50   the cable goes into my HD home run

00:59:53   and there's an ethernet port,

00:59:54   but then I need to send that video downstairs

00:59:56   through my network to the Synology where it gets recorded

00:59:58   and then when I play it back on my TV,

00:59:59   I've gotta send it back from the Synology

01:00:01   through the network to the thing.

01:00:02   Not an issue for me in my house

01:00:04   and my network bandwidth the way it is,

01:00:05   but it's just one more thing to think about.

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01:01:58   - All right, let me briefly talk about feedbacks.

01:02:05   Do you know what, gentlemen?

01:02:06   Suddenly I started getting responses to my feedbacks.

01:02:09   - I don't know why, why would that be?

01:02:10   Why are people rewarding you for your tantrums?

01:02:12   That's my question.

01:02:13   - Running to the press never helps.

01:02:14   - Running to the press never helps.

01:02:15   - I mean, he was running to the press.

01:02:16   I mean, is he the press?

01:02:17   I don't know.

01:02:18   - Yeah, probably.

01:02:19   He ran to himself and he stomped his feet real loud.

01:02:22   - I did, and I stand by it, darn it.

01:02:24   I listen to it again and I stand by it.

01:02:25   But anyways, I had a couple of different feedbacks

01:02:28   actually get a response.

01:02:29   There were two out of the, what, seven or so

01:02:31   that I cited last time.

01:02:33   I'll put the feedback numbers in the show notes,

01:02:35   but one of them was about manual transferable

01:02:38   implementations with regards to the new photo picking API.

01:02:41   That is fixed, legitimately fixed.

01:02:43   And the update I got was,

01:02:44   thanks for submitting this report and for your patience.

01:02:46   We believe this issue has been addressed

01:02:48   in updates to iOS Mac OS.

01:02:49   Please test with latest Mac OS 13 beta 5

01:02:51   and iOS 16 beta 6, of which I did.

01:02:53   Thumbs up, all good.

01:02:55   The bigger one was the toolbar regression.

01:02:58   This is when I'm swapping views in Swift UI

01:03:00   and one of them has a toolbar at bottom bar,

01:03:02   one of them does not,

01:03:03   and it never honors the new views bottom toolbar,

01:03:07   never shows it.

01:03:08   And so I got the following feedback.

01:03:10   Hi Casey, thanks for filing this feedback.

01:03:12   If you're running into issues with bottom bar not showing

01:03:13   or showing when it's not supposed to,

01:03:15   You can try using the toolbar, either visible or I think hidden for, and then your toolbar

01:03:20   location.

01:03:21   I'm trying to read you an API, which is why it sounds a little funny.

01:03:23   Modifier to work around this issue.

01:03:25   That was extremely useful feedback, full stop.

01:03:28   That was exactly what I wish I had seen long ago.

01:03:31   That would have been great.

01:03:33   However, I tried this this morning and maybe this is something wrong with my code.

01:03:37   I haven't had the chance to break this out into a demo app to see if it's me or not,

01:03:41   But what ended up happening was, when I use this modifier, it shows the toolbar that's

01:03:47   up in the navigation bar.

01:03:49   And it does indeed show the bottom bar, which it was hiding previously.

01:03:52   So far, so good.

01:03:54   Except one of the two bars always looks disabled.

01:03:59   They're not disabled, mind you, but they're grayed out and are not showing the app's tint

01:04:02   color as though they're disabled.

01:04:04   If you tap on them, they work, and then it'll flip to the other one being disabled.

01:04:10   So one of the toolbars is always disabled.

01:04:13   I don't know what I'm gonna do about this before I ship.

01:04:15   I have no idea.

01:04:16   I have a week or so, maybe two weeks until I was 16 ships.

01:04:20   I have no idea what I'm gonna do about this.

01:04:21   I really don't have the faintest idea.

01:04:23   So I have written a response saying

01:04:25   that this seems like it's still broken.

01:04:27   I still need to do my due diligence

01:04:29   and break it out in a sample app

01:04:30   and see if it's really broken there

01:04:33   or maybe I'm doing something wrong.

01:04:35   But I got feedback.

01:04:38   - Hey, that's-- - Yay.

01:04:39   look, compared to where we were

01:04:41   and where most of our bugs are,

01:04:43   I mean look, and I have great news too.

01:04:45   My, the one, like the one bug I was really tracking

01:04:48   all summer that actually, you know,

01:04:49   I filed a couple of like enhancement requests

01:04:52   that I know those just go right in the trash,

01:04:54   but I figured like, at least let me,

01:04:56   there's this one that's actually a bug

01:04:58   that I talked about last week about, you know,

01:05:00   the tint color not applying to the navigation

01:05:01   split view buttons, and sure enough,

01:05:04   in beta seven, it's just fixed.

01:05:07   I didn't get a response on the bug, but I don't care.

01:05:09   They fixed the bug.

01:05:10   Like that's-- I did my due diligence.

01:05:14   When beta 7 came out, I opened up Xcode.

01:05:16   I installed a new beta on my phone.

01:05:17   The new Xcode update, it's actually beta 6.

01:05:20   Thanks a lot.

01:05:20   It's off by one now.

01:05:21   And so I've ran everything, and it just worked.

01:05:25   And I dutifully closed the bug saying, hey, thanks.

01:05:29   You fixed it.

01:05:30   So last time, when we last left this bug,

01:05:32   if I'm remembering the right bug, what they were telling you

01:05:35   is the deprecated API does what you want,

01:05:36   but it's deprecated, and the new API is functioning correctly

01:05:39   and doesn't do what you want.

01:05:41   So what did they do to fix it?

01:05:42   They made it function correctly.

01:05:44   Now, they didn't comment on-- the bug screeners comment to me

01:05:50   was basically like, hey, you're using it wrong slash this

01:05:54   is broken by design in more words than that.

01:05:57   But the gist of it is, yeah, this is just broken,

01:05:59   and sorry, it's your fault for expecting it to work.

01:06:02   And I responded with an argument that that's

01:06:06   crappy, they never said anything,

01:06:09   but they just fixed the bug.

01:06:10   And that's it, so it's done.

01:06:11   - I wonder if that was intentional,

01:06:14   or it's just backsliding,

01:06:15   'cause the communication you have is,

01:06:16   this API isn't supposed to do the thing you want,

01:06:18   but then in the new beta, it does do the thing you want,

01:06:20   but they didn't say, by the way, we changed our mind,

01:06:23   and now we agree with you, Marco,

01:06:25   it should do the thing you want.

01:06:26   It does do it, good for you, but--

01:06:28   - Yeah, I mean, I think the reason why

01:06:30   somebody thought this was worth fixing is that

01:06:33   it's not like it was behaving a different way intentionally.

01:06:38   They were basically, their response to me was basically,

01:06:40   you know, paraphrasing,

01:06:42   "You shouldn't expect this to work this way."

01:06:45   But like, it's the most obvious way for it to work.

01:06:48   - It makes it sound like it was intentional

01:06:50   that they didn't intend it to work that way,

01:06:52   and so it not working that way isn't a bug,

01:06:53   it's what they always meant.

01:06:54   Well anyway, we'll find out if anyone communicates,

01:06:56   "Hey, did you intentionally change your mind about this?

01:06:58   "Was that person mistaken about

01:07:00   "how the API is supposed to work?"

01:07:02   So you're good in beta seven, but if beta eight

01:07:04   it goes back to the other way, it's not as if

01:07:06   you've had any subsequent communication

01:07:07   that lets you know whether beta seven was a mistake.

01:07:10   You know what I mean?

01:07:11   - Yeah, I'm definitely not gonna be deleting

01:07:12   my UI kit workaround anytime soon, just in case.

01:07:16   Anyway, hey, running to the press helped.

01:07:19   Surprise, that's how it always does with Apple,

01:07:21   unfortunately, I wish it didn't work this way.

01:07:24   I wish that, first of all, I wish that everybody

01:07:28   had access to get their bugs fixed,

01:07:30   and that more bugs got fixed.

01:07:31   And second of all, I wish that for those of us

01:07:34   who are fortunate enough to have a loud enough megaphone

01:07:37   that we can actually get our stuff fixed

01:07:38   when we complain about it,

01:07:40   I wish we didn't have to complain about it to get it fixed

01:07:42   because the last thing we wanna be doing

01:07:44   is complaining constantly

01:07:45   and that's not really what we wanna be doing here

01:07:47   or what anybody wants to hear.

01:07:49   And so I wish the system was just better

01:07:51   and that these kind of workarounds were not necessary.

01:07:55   And long term, I hope they can actually do a better job

01:07:58   of achieving that.

01:08:00   Obviously, like, you know, in the rush

01:08:02   right before all this stuff is about to ship,

01:08:04   this is a bad time to be telling them this,

01:08:06   but this is the reality that, like, look,

01:08:08   things have to change here long term

01:08:10   because what they're doing seems,

01:08:12   it just does not produce quality software

01:08:16   at the rate they're pushing it.

01:08:19   - And it doesn't produce quality software

01:08:20   for them or for us.

01:08:22   Like, our software is now crummier on account of them

01:08:25   not being able to respond with the quickness

01:08:27   that we want them to.

01:08:29   Now with regards to running to the press never helping,

01:08:32   Martin Pilkington writes,

01:08:33   "I found one needs to treat radar like the App Store.

01:08:35   "Putting an app on the App Store

01:08:36   "won't ensure anyone finds it.

01:08:38   "You need to market it externally.

01:08:39   "Similarly, radars are only really found

01:08:41   "if you rant about them online

01:08:42   "and someone at Apple sees that rant."

01:08:44   This is so frickin' frustrating,

01:08:47   but it is a perfect distillation of what I've been saying

01:08:50   over the last couple of weeks/couple of months.

01:08:51   It is 100% accurate.

01:08:53   - Yep, you gotta market your bug.

01:08:54   - It is 100% accurate, and it's BS that that's the case,

01:08:57   I'm trying to keep myself reined in so I don't go on another rant and then Bjorn scoggling writes

01:09:02   Sounds like an opportunity for ad revenue for Apple if I ever heard

01:09:05   You'll be able to pay it'll be like paying for indulgences of the church

01:09:10   You could be able to pay money to get someone to look at your bug in and honestly like it's kind of like one of

01:09:14   Those things and you know, there's a lot of things in video games

01:09:17   Especially video games that have subscription where they'll they be quality of life improvements

01:09:20   We're like, oh you don't have to put this button an extra time or you get more space in your vault in destiny or whatever

01:09:25   And those things seem silly and trivial and I just hope that you know no one ever well this game designers

01:09:32   You think about this?

01:09:33   But like the amount of money that people would be willing to play

01:09:36   To pay to for example get more room in their vault and destiny is obscene and so if they ever did say hey

01:09:41   Do you if you want your radar looked at just pay us some money or let's have a bidding war or let's have an auction

01:09:46   For it they would make so much money because developers are desperate to have their bugs looked at because it could mean the different

01:09:53   I mean maybe not for you know

01:09:55   Dinky app like I make or whatever but like because I don't really care one with the other but like

01:09:59   What if your app is the basis of your entire company and you have your VC funded company?

01:10:04   You've got to make money and your app is broken and you can't figure it out

01:10:06   How much money would you be willing to pay to actually get Apple to look at and respond to you your feedback or radar an?

01:10:12   Awful lot. Well, what kind of response are you getting? Like are you getting the kind of BS responses that I often get

01:10:18   I'm not endorsing this

01:10:19   I'm just saying that's how much people want it

01:10:21   Like they'd be willing to pay obscene amounts,

01:10:23   which is why Apple should never do it.

01:10:24   And there are DTS support incidents,

01:10:26   which is kind of what that's for.

01:10:28   Hey, you get a certain number of those

01:10:29   with your DevOps subscription.

01:10:31   I think you can pay for more of them, can you?

01:10:32   - I believe, you get two.

01:10:34   I've never used one, because I'm always afraid to use them,

01:10:37   because we only get two.

01:10:38   And I've literally, you know, been a developer

01:10:41   for like 14 years, I've never used one.

01:10:43   - You're saving your super for the big boss,

01:10:44   and you defeat the boss, and you never use it,

01:10:46   'cause you were just saving it the whole time.

01:10:47   - Right, yeah.

01:10:48   - Anyway, so there are ways to do this through money.

01:10:51   But all I'm saying is how desperate developers are,

01:10:55   how desperate rank and file developers are

01:10:57   to get any response to their feedback.

01:10:59   It's part of the reason why people go to the UC.

01:11:01   I can talk to a human being who, you know,

01:11:03   like it would kind of be fun if the human beings

01:11:06   that we ever see treated you the way feedback does.

01:11:08   You'd sit down, you'd show them your sample project,

01:11:09   you'd explain it, and they'd just sit there silently

01:11:11   looking at you.

01:11:12   And you'd be waiting.

01:11:14   And then like 10 years later, they'd come to your house,

01:11:16   knock on your door and say,

01:11:17   "Oh, you just need to put this line at the bottom."

01:11:19   All right, there's been an announcement that, as has been foretold, the first iPadOS release

01:11:27   on 16 will actually be 16.1, which is coming "this fall."

01:11:32   Apple writes, "This is an especially big year for iPadOS as its own platform with features

01:11:36   specifically designed for iPad.

01:11:37   We have the flexibility to deliver iPadOS on its own schedule.

01:11:41   This fall, iPadOS will ship after iOS as version 16.1 in a free software update."

01:11:45   Let me translate that from corporate speak.

01:11:48   is on fire and we're not gonna fix it in time.

01:11:49   So we'll get to it eventually.

01:11:51   - Yes, there won't be an iPad OS 16.0.

01:11:53   They're gonna skip 16.0 and just keep it on 15 point

01:11:56   whatever as iOS moves to 16 until 16.1

01:12:00   is ready with iPad OS.

01:12:02   - So the flexibility as they say,

01:12:04   well it's not the same OS.

01:12:05   So we're not stuck in the situation

01:12:06   we would have been years ago where it's like,

01:12:07   oh but iOS 16 needs to go out 'cause that's what you need

01:12:10   for the new phones and the phones are gonna ship

01:12:12   and come hell or high water.

01:12:13   So what do we do?

01:12:14   Do we rip these features out of iPad?

01:12:16   But ah, but now we don't have that problem

01:12:17   because iPadOS is a separate OS,

01:12:18   and we have the flexibility to ship it later when it's ready.

01:12:21   I understand where they're coming from,

01:12:23   but from a user's perspective, especially

01:12:27   in the past several years, Apple has been leaning on very

01:12:30   heavily, and I think to good effect,

01:12:32   the synergy between its platforms.

01:12:34   That when they add a feature, they don't just

01:12:36   add it to one platform.

01:12:37   It's added to all of them and works together with them.

01:12:41   And when one platform ships substantially before the others,

01:12:44   that often leaves its users in a weird situation

01:12:46   where my phone is on iOS 16 and has, for example,

01:12:49   the family shared photo library thing,

01:12:52   but my iPad and my Mac are not.

01:12:54   And so how does that work?

01:12:56   Sometimes you just miss out on the features.

01:12:57   It's like, well, the point of this feature is sharing,

01:12:59   but if I can't use it on my Mac, I can't use it on my iPad.

01:13:03   Yes, it's good that the shared library works

01:13:05   between me and my spouse on my phone,

01:13:07   but I can't do any editing on my Mac,

01:13:09   and do I even wanna do the shared library like that?

01:13:11   And then you have situations like,

01:13:12   I don't remember if it was Notes or Reminders

01:13:14   or one of the others,

01:13:14   where there's like a one-time, one-direction upgrade

01:13:17   of your database backing for your thing,

01:13:20   I say, you know, this OS has a new backend for notes.

01:13:25   If you upgrade this, you won't be able to see these notes

01:13:28   on old devices.

01:13:29   Do you wanna upgrade now?

01:13:31   And if you say yes, now you've got this split-brain scenario

01:13:35   where some of your devices see one set of data

01:13:36   and some of your devices see the other.

01:13:38   So although I endorse not releasing the OS

01:13:40   when it doesn't work and Stage Manager is a big mess,

01:13:43   that's better than nothing.

01:13:45   I'm sad that the one feature that I'm looking forward to,

01:13:49   I can't even use on my phone on my iPad,

01:13:51   let alone my phone on my iPad on the Mac,

01:13:53   because the phone's gonna get the update

01:13:55   and then the Mac and the iPad potentially months later.

01:13:58   And that's not a fun experience for me.

01:14:00   And obviously Apple's not doing this on purpose.

01:14:02   Just feel like there are still more kinks to be worked out

01:14:05   in terms of Apple correctly sizing their releases

01:14:09   based on what they think they can actually achieve.

01:14:11   And it seems like they were overambitious

01:14:13   with their expectation that Stage Manager

01:14:14   would be in a shippable state in time.

01:14:16   - Yeah, I mean, honestly, based on everyone's reviews

01:14:20   who are using it heavily, like all the iPad power users

01:14:22   and stuff who are really giving it a good try,

01:14:24   it seems almost similar to the problem

01:14:26   with the Mac Settings app in the sense that

01:14:29   they demoed this at W2C, they made this

01:14:32   a headlining thing, but it really seems like

01:14:35   Stage Manager is really not ready to ship.

01:14:37   And frankly, I don't know if it's gonna be ready

01:14:40   another month or two later.

01:14:42   It seems like this is possibly another year before

01:14:45   this really probably should have been released.

01:14:48   Again, see also System Settings app.

01:14:50   By the way, we haven't heard yet anything about macOS,

01:14:56   but I think it seems very likely that macOS

01:14:59   will probably have the exact same delay

01:15:01   for many reasons, including--

01:15:03   - But macOS was always targeted to October.

01:15:05   It's always been.

01:15:06   macOS hasn't been released at the same time

01:15:09   the iPhone OS for iOS for what, five years, six years?

01:15:13   It's been a while.

01:15:14   - Oh, okay.

01:15:15   But yeah, so anyway, it does seem like this year's releases,

01:15:20   there's a lot in them that probably needed more time,

01:15:24   like probably needed another year.

01:15:26   And I don't know what that says about what's going on there.

01:15:29   I mean, you know, maybe, I think it's,

01:15:33   I said this before, but I think we really need to remember

01:15:36   that during the last few years,

01:15:39   there's been massive disruption to their workforce

01:15:42   with the pandemic and with work at home

01:15:44   and some of the turmoil going on

01:15:47   with certain internal issues and internal conflicts

01:15:50   and scandals and stuff.

01:15:54   So there's been so much disruption

01:15:57   and they've done a really good job overall

01:15:59   of hiding that from us, but this disruption has happened

01:16:03   and their work has been affected.

01:16:06   And so I think this is that finally coming home to Roost

01:16:10   that this year's releases,

01:16:12   like the core of them seems fine.

01:16:16   I've been using the beta on my phone all summer

01:16:18   and it's not crashing or anything.

01:16:21   The battery life is mostly recovered.

01:16:23   Like it's fine, everything, the core stuff is fine,

01:16:27   but the list of new features this year was pretty small.

01:16:30   And you look at something like Stage Manager

01:16:33   or the system settings app and like, wow,

01:16:35   like the big feature that they demoed,

01:16:37   it's kinda not ready and looks like it won't be ready

01:16:41   in the near future.

01:16:43   And I think that we're just seeing like,

01:16:45   you know, they're human too and this cycle,

01:16:49   you know, through all the pandemic stuff and everything

01:16:50   has been tough on them and they haven't gotten done

01:16:54   everything they probably wanted to get done.

01:16:55   That being said, if things are in this bad of a state,

01:17:00   somebody should have made the call this spring

01:17:03   to say this is not gonna hit in time for this year,

01:17:06   this is not gonna be good enough in time for this year,

01:17:08   so let's punt it 'til next year.

01:17:10   And they didn't do that, and I think that's gonna bite them

01:17:14   really hard this fall as these features, you know,

01:17:17   ship in some form and just are really rough.

01:17:21   And I don't see any evidence that stage manager

01:17:26   or system settings on the Mac is gonna be really great

01:17:30   even if they ship it on, you know,

01:17:32   the day before Christmas, like fall goes until,

01:17:34   what, December 22nd or something?

01:17:36   They could ship this right before Christmas.

01:17:39   I still don't think that's gonna be enough time.

01:17:40   - Yeah, the interesting thing about Stage Manager,

01:17:42   from what I've read about it, I mean,

01:17:43   I have iPad OS 16 on my iPad,

01:17:46   so I've been using it a little bit,

01:17:48   but most of the complaints that I've seen

01:17:50   from the people who are just really diving

01:17:52   into Stage Manager and the iPad power users

01:17:54   are not that Stage Manager is crashing or is buggy.

01:17:58   It's that they don't like how it works,

01:18:00   And the changes, such as they are from beta to beta

01:18:03   and just the way that Apple's designed it,

01:18:05   it makes me seem like the main problem with stage manager

01:18:07   is they've made the wrong decisions

01:18:09   about how it should work, right?

01:18:11   Like when you do this, this happens.

01:18:13   And Apple would say, yeah,

01:18:13   that's exactly how we meant it to work.

01:18:14   It's working great.

01:18:15   And people say, no, like,

01:18:17   I know you meant it to work that way, but it's terrible.

01:18:19   Right?

01:18:19   That they had the wrong idea about when you launch an app,

01:18:22   what should it do?

01:18:23   When you close an app, what should it do?

01:18:24   When you want to add another app, what should it do?

01:18:26   When you want to try to move a window, what should it do?

01:18:28   And it's like at every turn Apple has made choices

01:18:30   in stage manager that iPad power users don't like.

01:18:33   And that is a different kind of problem

01:18:35   than like they may have thought,

01:18:36   oh, it'll be ready in time.

01:18:37   It would be ready in time, I think,

01:18:39   if the choices they had made were pleasing to their users,

01:18:42   but the users all hate it.

01:18:43   And so it's like, well, it works and it's not buggy,

01:18:46   but everyone hates it, so we can't really ship it like that.

01:18:48   So I hope what they're doing is saying,

01:18:50   we need to rethink, like we made the wrong policy decisions.

01:18:53   The design of this feature is wrong.

01:18:55   And that is a tough place to be.

01:18:56   It's kind of like where they were,

01:18:57   Well, not quite the same with the Safari thing.

01:19:00   I guess the design decision of address bar

01:19:01   optionally on the bottom, that was okay,

01:19:03   but every other part of that design was the wrong decision.

01:19:06   And it's not like it was buggy.

01:19:07   They're saying, this is just a bad design.

01:19:09   It makes it harder for web designers.

01:19:11   It's not pleasing to look at.

01:19:12   It's not easy to use.

01:19:14   You know, start over.

01:19:16   Address bar on the bottom, fine.

01:19:17   Everything else, forget about it.

01:19:19   And that's what they did.

01:19:20   They said, okay, how about,

01:19:20   how about we do the address on the part on the bottom,

01:19:22   but it's like the address bar on the top.

01:19:23   So like, see, was that that hard?

01:19:25   They can't do that with stage manager.

01:19:26   There's no super obvious way they can change things,

01:19:29   but I think the struggle they're having is,

01:19:31   it's not like we just need to burn down those bugs

01:19:35   and we'll be ready, it's we need to rethink this feature

01:19:37   because what we thought would be pleasing

01:19:39   to our users is not.

01:19:41   - Yeah, and that's not something that happens quickly.

01:19:43   That's not something that happens

01:19:44   during a few months in a beta period.

01:19:46   That's something that happens over a year or two

01:19:48   of hold this feature back from the public

01:19:51   and we'll ship it maybe in a future software update

01:19:53   after we've rethought and reevaluated it.

01:19:56   - Do you think this is gonna be the next AirPower?

01:19:58   - You think they're actually gonna pull it?

01:20:00   - Yeah, I mean, I don't think so,

01:20:01   but it sounds like it's real.

01:20:02   I have not used it, my iPad's too old and busted,

01:20:05   but I don't know, from what I've heard,

01:20:07   it's not in a good spot, like you were saying.

01:20:10   - I've used it, and again, I'm not a heavy iPad user,

01:20:13   so my usage of it doesn't matter much,

01:20:15   but I've used it and it's fine.

01:20:18   I don't prefer it.

01:20:19   The way it works, even for my very simplistic cases

01:20:22   of having like three apps that I'm switching between

01:20:25   and maybe have two on the screen at once,

01:20:27   I don't like it very much, and I frequently turn it off

01:20:30   and just do a split view or something.

01:20:33   But again, I'm not a heavy iPad user.

01:20:34   Frankly, I would be surprised if,

01:20:39   well, I guess I was gonna say I'd be surprised

01:20:41   if they pulled it.

01:20:43   - It's easy to pull.

01:20:44   - Yeah, well, it's easy to pull technically.

01:20:47   It's not easy to pull ego-wise.

01:20:50   It would take a lot of swallowing egos

01:20:53   and a lot of like facing the music for people

01:20:56   if they actually did pull this before release.

01:20:58   That being said, if it's really,

01:21:02   given how the iPad power users are receiving this

01:21:06   over the summer, and as you mentioned,

01:21:08   things that aren't just bugs that are actually

01:21:10   just like design choices that people aren't liking

01:21:13   and that aren't working for people,

01:21:15   and behavioral choices that aren't working for people,

01:21:18   that's a hard thing to fix in a short time under pressure.

01:21:22   when you're facing that kind of thing,

01:21:24   pulling it and possibly bringing it back in the future

01:21:26   is what you should do.

01:21:28   And so I think they really, and again,

01:21:30   and I would say all of this exact same thing

01:21:32   about the Ventura System Settings app,

01:21:35   I think the right move is to pull that

01:21:38   and just ship the old app

01:21:39   and whatever very few differences there are.

01:21:42   - Network location, you gotta fix at least one thing.

01:21:45   - Well, just delete it.

01:21:46   I mean, that's what they did in the new one, right?

01:21:47   They just left it out.

01:21:48   - Maybe.

01:21:49   - But yeah, so anyway,

01:21:50   I think it would be less work and result in a better outcome

01:21:55   if they pulled both of these things for this fall

01:21:58   and just put them back in the works,

01:22:02   polish them up, decide whether to ship them later,

01:22:05   for next year's releases, but in neither case

01:22:08   do I think these things are gonna be shippable

01:22:09   by November or December.

01:22:11   - Well, so if I had in my magic envelope,

01:22:13   here is the correct policy decisions

01:22:15   for all of the interactions in the stage manager

01:22:17   and I threw that to Apple,

01:22:18   they could implement those decisions in time

01:22:20   because they have the functionality.

01:22:21   It's just like a question of when I do X, what should happen?

01:22:24   And it's a menu of possible things that could happen,

01:22:26   all of which the feature already does.

01:22:28   It's just a question of which one of the things that you do.

01:22:31   Problem is, I don't think they know,

01:22:32   they don't know what's in that envelope.

01:22:33   They don't know, well, how should it work?

01:22:35   And that is, this is not a good place to be.

01:22:37   It's like, we don't even know how it should work,

01:22:38   let alone getting it to work the way.

01:22:40   But I'm mostly stage manager.

01:22:43   Again, I've used it on my iPad and played with it

01:22:44   or whatever, but I'm also not a big iPad power user.

01:22:46   But I've used it on the Mac a lot.

01:22:48   And remember, according to that rumor/inside story,

01:22:52   this is a feature that grew on the Mac originally.

01:22:55   And I have to say, on the Mac, it fulfills its role

01:22:57   in such a superior, more straightforward way

01:23:01   by giving you essentially spaces without spaces,

01:23:04   little subgroups of windows.

01:23:06   And the reason I think it works so much better on the Mac

01:23:08   for that purpose, if that's what you want,

01:23:10   is because, well, two things.

01:23:11   One, it is solving a problem that the Mac has,

01:23:14   which is if you don't wanna manually manage

01:23:16   a bunch of windows, it doesn't have a lot of tools for you to sort of manage subgroups

01:23:20   of windows other than spaces, which is intimidating to a lot of people and is kind of a heavyweight

01:23:25   solution and has its own set of problems in terms of not, kind of similar to the space

01:23:28   manager, kind of determining like, well when I click on this dock icon, where does this

01:23:31   new window open, is it going to switch me to another space or whatever?

01:23:35   Stage manager on the Mac does a little bit better in that.

01:23:37   And the second thing is, it doesn't, it fits in well with the basic Mac model of there

01:23:44   There are windows that are rectangles.

01:23:46   You can resize them from all the edges.

01:23:47   You can move them wherever you want.

01:23:49   Stage Manager says, yep,

01:23:51   you can do that with Stage Manager too.

01:23:52   All we're doing is essentially taking subsets of windows

01:23:55   and shuffling them in and out in front of you.

01:23:56   And you can see the little subsets

01:23:57   so you can hide that thing

01:23:59   and you can move windows between them.

01:24:00   But there's nothing else weird you have to learn.

01:24:02   The windows are the same as the regular windows.

01:24:04   They have window widgets on top of them.

01:24:05   You can move them and resize them

01:24:06   exactly as you do all the time.

01:24:08   If what you want are subgroups of windows

01:24:10   that you can shuffle in and out,

01:24:11   Stage Manager more or less provides that for you.

01:24:13   iPad OS is like they took the Mac feature and said well

01:24:16   We can't just bring that to the iPad because the iPads got its own way of doing things

01:24:19   We can't just let people move windows wherever they want. We have to snap them to both different certain sizes and certain positions

01:24:25   So now we have to implement a policy to say, you know, because iPad apps don't expect to be all sorts of random sizes

01:24:29   They just expect to be these three different size classes and we can't even let people

01:24:32   iPad users move windows because what if they move them and only a sliver is visible and they can't grab that sliver with their

01:24:37   Fat meat fingers

01:24:38   So we have to make it so that the windows carefully arrange themselves into a pleasing arrangement and we can't have too many windows

01:24:43   because we don't have a lot of memory,

01:24:44   even though we implemented virtual memory,

01:24:46   but never mind, you can only have four windows at a time.

01:24:48   And so what happens when you add another window?

01:24:51   And it's like the team that has,

01:24:53   the instincts of how an iPad interface should work,

01:24:58   the positive example of that is how they did cursor support.

01:25:01   They took cursor support and they iPad-ified it,

01:25:03   and I think they did an awesome job.

01:25:05   But those same instincts and maybe even that same team

01:25:08   said we have the stage render feature on the Mac,

01:25:10   I think just the allergy to making window widgets or making it like the Mac or allowing

01:25:16   iPad users to arbitrarily resize their apps or arbitrarily move them has made them so

01:25:21   compromised this feature, on top of the apparently inherent limitations of how many windows you

01:25:26   can have at a time, which in theory have a technical foundation that's causing them not

01:25:29   to allow you to go hog wild with Windows, has made the feature very limiting, very frustrating,

01:25:36   And then within those limits, when you take an action

01:25:40   where you expected something to happen like,

01:25:42   hey, this new Safari link that I,

01:25:44   this link that I tapped in my note

01:25:45   should open a Safari window

01:25:46   in my current stage manager thing,

01:25:48   not chuck me to another one,

01:25:49   when that doesn't happen for technical reasons or whatever,

01:25:52   or when you try to arrange windows so they're pleasing

01:25:54   and you move a window with your finger

01:25:56   and it snaps back three inches,

01:25:57   but says, no, don't you like it better like this?

01:25:59   And you go, no, I didn't like it better like that.

01:26:01   I moved it there 'cause I wanted it to be there.

01:26:03   Don't move it back on me.

01:26:04   All of that has poisoned this feature that I think,

01:26:08   not that it's better suited to the Mac,

01:26:09   'cause the Mac doesn't need this as much as the iPad does.

01:26:12   The Mac already has a way to arrange Windows.

01:26:14   This is a additional boon to the Mac

01:26:18   for people who didn't have this feature before,

01:26:19   whereas I feel like it's almost like a life preserver

01:26:21   to the iPad power users who desperately need something

01:26:24   that lets them do this, something that lets,

01:26:26   you know, Vitice talked about how when he went back

01:26:29   to using like the old thing, slide over and all that,

01:26:31   so that set of very limiting rules

01:26:32   that iPad users railed against for many years.

01:26:35   It's like that felt like relaxing to go back to that

01:26:38   because at least it was a set of rules he understood

01:26:40   and at least he could manipulate it to get what he wanted.

01:26:43   Whereas with stage manager,

01:26:43   it felt like no matter how much fighting with it,

01:26:45   he couldn't get it to do what he wanted.

01:26:46   And that's a damning assessment

01:26:50   because the whole point of stage managers

01:26:52   is supposed to feel like now you have more flexibility

01:26:54   than that very limited slide over.

01:26:56   When slide over feels like the relief from stage manager,

01:26:58   things have gone terribly wrong.

01:27:01   So is it going to get pulled forever or no?

01:27:02   - I don't know.

01:27:04   - I think it can be saved

01:27:05   if they figure out the right policy decisions

01:27:07   of how it should work on the iPad.

01:27:08   And I think that the only real technical barrier is,

01:27:12   should we, someone eventually going to say,

01:27:14   hey, apps that are on the iPad

01:27:16   have to handle being resized in arbitrary windows.

01:27:18   That may be a big ask and that may take years to come around

01:27:21   but I think it's inevitable

01:27:23   that if you really want the iPad

01:27:25   to be able to do what it deserves to do,

01:27:27   you can't constrain every single iPad, OS app window

01:27:31   to the size classes that we've known.

01:27:33   - I think that's fair.

01:27:34   I don't know, we'll see what happens, but it's interesting.

01:27:35   It's interesting for sure.

01:27:37   All right, one other quick thing I wanted to briefly

01:27:39   take mention of or make mention of,

01:27:41   and then we can move on.

01:27:43   There was a hack that Plex announced this morning

01:27:46   as we record.

01:27:47   Apparently this was reported in a bunch of places,

01:27:51   including 9to5Mac.

01:27:52   Plex wrote, "We want you to be aware of an incident

01:27:54   involving your Plex account information yesterday.

01:27:56   While we believe the actual impact of this incident

01:27:58   is limited, we want to ensure you have

01:27:59   the right information tools to keep your account secure.

01:28:02   Yesterday, we discovered suspicious activity

01:28:03   on one of our databases.

01:28:04   We immediately began an investigation,

01:28:06   and it does appear that a third party

01:28:07   was able to access a limited subset of data

01:28:10   that includes emails, usernames, and encrypted passwords.

01:28:15   Even though all account passwords

01:28:18   that could have been accessed were hashed and secured

01:28:19   in accordance with best practices,

01:28:20   out of an abundance of caution,

01:28:22   we are requiring all Plex accounts

01:28:24   to have their passwords reset.

01:28:25   Rest assured that credit card

01:28:26   and other important payment data

01:28:28   are not stored in our servers at all,

01:28:30   and we're not vulnerable in this instance.

01:28:31   So granted, it was at least the hash,

01:28:33   if I'm reading this right,

01:28:34   not the actual plain text password, but still.

01:28:37   Ugh.

01:28:38   So on the grand scheme of things, do I care?

01:28:40   Not really.

01:28:41   You know why?

01:28:42   Because I use 1Password and Plex had its own unique password.

01:28:45   So what did I do?

01:28:46   I changed it.

01:28:47   And then the problem, unless I'm misunderstanding,

01:28:50   goes away and it's no big deal.

01:28:52   I have many problems with 1Password these days

01:28:54   because I really don't like 1Password 8 at all.

01:28:57   But that's a discussion for another day.

01:29:00   But yeah, this is why 1Password is great,

01:29:01   because I changed that password

01:29:03   and I moved on with my life.

01:29:05   - Did you have to reclaim your Plex servers?

01:29:07   - No, and actually I did not receive the C-mail.

01:29:09   You know, the chat room is asking,

01:29:10   did you guys get this, did you get this?

01:29:11   I didn't actually receive the C-mail myself.

01:29:13   I'm reading from 9to5Mac,

01:29:15   which is a little bit alarming,

01:29:16   but nevertheless, no, I reset my password this morning.

01:29:19   I didn't see any of the like,

01:29:21   self-issued DDoS that people were getting.

01:29:23   You know, apparently everyone was trying

01:29:24   to reset their passwords at the same moment.

01:29:26   I had no problem with that.

01:29:28   I didn't have to reclaim my Plex server.

01:29:29   Like, was it you, John, that said you had to do that?

01:29:31   Like, I had no--

01:29:32   - Yeah, like when I, when I, I got this email arrived

01:29:34   at 1.43 a.m., which obviously I didn't see it,

01:29:36   but then when I woke up this morning, I saw it,

01:29:37   I changed my password, and then I went to, yeah,

01:29:39   I knew I'd have to re-sign in to all my Plex stuff,

01:29:41   'cause I did the option, when you change your password,

01:29:43   you can say, oh, and by the way, also sign me

01:29:44   out of all my devices, and that's what they

01:29:46   recommended you do, so I did it.

01:29:47   And then I went to my Plex server,

01:29:48   pulled up the web UI, I'm like, yeah,

01:29:49   "Okay, I'm gonna have to sign in again."

01:29:50   And I signed in, and then it listed all of my servers.

01:29:53   And then when I went to one of them, it says,

01:29:55   "This server is unclaimed.

01:29:56   "You have to claim it again,

01:29:57   "and we'll associate it with your account."

01:29:58   I'm like, "All right, well."

01:29:59   So I did that.

01:30:00   I mean, it was just a button press,

01:30:01   but it did take a surprisingly long time.

01:30:03   Maybe their servers were starting

01:30:04   to be hammered at that point.

01:30:05   I don't even know what claiming the server is.

01:30:06   I don't believe I've ever done it before,

01:30:08   but it wanted me to do it again, so I did.

01:30:09   - So it's what happens when you, like,

01:30:11   move it to a different computer.

01:30:13   It's just saying that this server belongs

01:30:15   to this Plex account.

01:30:17   Otherwise, anyone else could swoop in hypothetically

01:30:19   and say, "Oh, that's my server."

01:30:21   And then you get, that other person

01:30:22   would have got access to your server.

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01:32:14   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:32:18   All right, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:32:20   Bart Kowalski writes, why do some app updates weigh in at

01:32:23   multiple hundred megabytes in size, whereas updates from

01:32:25   smaller teams weigh in at dozens of megabytes in size?

01:32:28   Anecdotally, it seems that larger companies' app updates

01:32:30   tend to be larger, while smaller companies' updates

01:32:32   tend to usually be much smaller.

01:32:34   I mean, I don't think my garage door opener app needs a

01:32:38   200-megabyte update every few weeks, right?

01:32:40   How many changes could they squeeze into a garage opening

01:32:42   app each time?

01:32:43   Because of this, I'm super selective

01:32:45   about what I manually update and when.

01:32:46   Is it just a case of laziness where Dev simply re-uploads

01:32:49   the whole app instead of some small part of the code base?

01:32:52   Is there something going on on Apple's end?

01:32:53   Is there something else going on that I have no idea about?

01:32:55   Please enlighten me.

01:32:56   I mean, I don't know what the best way to approach this is.

01:32:59   First of all, there isn't any sort of incremental update

01:33:02   in the App Store, right, or am I missing something?

01:33:04   - There wasn't, like, back in the early, early days,

01:33:06   but they added that probably at least five or six years ago.

01:33:09   It's been a while.

01:33:10   So we have, when they introduced something

01:33:12   called app thinning, remember that?

01:33:14   - I thought that was less about incremental updates

01:33:16   and more about rather than shipping you like a fat binary

01:33:19   with everything that every device will need,

01:33:22   I thought app thinning was, let me just give you the junk

01:33:24   for your particular device.

01:33:26   - That's what it started out as, but I think it later,

01:33:29   it came to also encompass like actually doing more

01:33:32   like a diff style for the app as well for updates.

01:33:35   - Oh, all right, then that's my mistake.

01:33:36   - I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that includes that.

01:33:38   But anyway, no, yeah, the app store is doing this for you,

01:33:41   And it isn't an issue of the developer not updating a diff

01:33:45   and just uploading the whole app.

01:33:47   That isn't on the developer.

01:33:48   The developer updates the whole app to Apple every time,

01:33:50   and then Apple chooses how to send that to each device.

01:33:53   So that's out of our hands.

01:33:55   What makes apps big can be a lot of things.

01:33:58   And some of it is stuff that small developers

01:34:01   and indie developers like me tend not to use as much,

01:34:04   if at all, or we tend to have less.

01:34:06   So one of the biggest sources of app bloat

01:34:09   is stuff like image and video assets.

01:34:12   So if your app has a bunch of graphics

01:34:15   and parts of the design,

01:34:17   each one of those is gonna be stored as

01:34:19   a relatively loosely compressed image.

01:34:23   It's gonna be a PNG somewhere,

01:34:24   it's gonna be massive in the bundle.

01:34:26   And apps that have a whole bunch of screens

01:34:30   and designers and everything,

01:34:32   something like Instagram,

01:34:34   there's so many different screens in that app

01:34:37   to do all sorts of different things,

01:34:39   and all those buttons and toolbar icons and everything,

01:34:42   those are all stored as images somewhere in the bundle.

01:34:44   So images alone are a huge part of a lot of these apps

01:34:48   by big companies, just because they have just so many

01:34:52   of them and so many screens that you don't even realize

01:34:55   are there if you're a more casual user.

01:34:58   So that's part of it, just tons and tons of images.

01:35:01   Also, if there's any kind of animation where they're

01:35:05   showing you, some kind of instructional animation,

01:35:07   do this, then do this, that's gonna be rendered as a video.

01:35:10   And that's gonna be, again, very, very large files.

01:35:13   So that's part of it.

01:35:14   And I would say that's probably a large part of it,

01:35:17   maybe even the majority for most apps.

01:35:20   But also, there's actual code bloat.

01:35:24   And this, I mean, it takes a lot of code to hit 200 megs,

01:35:28   but it can be done.

01:35:29   And this is often the result of cross-platform frameworks.

01:35:34   Things like Electron, or any kind of web technology

01:35:37   based thing, they have to embed huge amounts of both,

01:35:42   you know, resources like images and stuff,

01:35:44   and also just huge amounts of code

01:35:46   to be their giant runtime layer for whatever kind

01:35:50   of fancy framework they are trying to do

01:35:52   in the name of efficiency in other areas,

01:35:55   which is hilarious.

01:35:56   So, you know, Overcast is a little under 10 megs,

01:36:00   because I don't use any of these giant third party

01:36:04   frameworks or middleware layers or cross-platform layers,

01:36:09   'cause I don't have to, because I'm one person

01:36:11   making an app for one OS, and that's it.

01:36:13   If you're doing something as a big company,

01:36:16   you're required to have big company bloat.

01:36:18   And the reason you need big company bloat

01:36:20   is so you avoid wasting money.

01:36:22   And so instead you have to hire thousands of developers

01:36:25   and other support staff to make these massive apps

01:36:29   in the name of efficiency and making sure

01:36:31   you don't accidentally have anything

01:36:33   that is inefficient or wrong.

01:36:36   So anyway, most of this is the result of like,

01:36:39   your standard big company needs.

01:36:43   So more developers writing larger amounts of crappier code

01:36:47   with larger amounts of supporting code around them

01:36:50   on top of many, many, many layers of other people's code

01:36:55   and libraries and everything.

01:36:56   And there is no incentive at any part of that

01:36:59   to make things smaller.

01:37:01   Like, usually, for many of the people involved in the stack,

01:37:05   there's no ability for them to make it smaller.

01:37:07   But, you know, at the larger level,

01:37:09   there's just no incentive for them to make it smaller,

01:37:11   because Apple doesn't care,

01:37:14   most users don't notice or care,

01:37:16   and so you kind of have no incentive

01:37:19   to fight against the current.

01:37:20   And where the current takes you

01:37:22   when you're working in a big company

01:37:23   is just massive amounts of bloat.

01:37:26   - Hmm, overcast is 10 megs,

01:37:27   the Switch glass is only three and a half,

01:37:29   that's interesting.

01:37:30   Oh, still burning.

01:37:31   I'm actually going down.

01:37:33   It always irritates me whenever some part of the APIs

01:37:37   requires an image.

01:37:39   'Cause I'm like, I can just render this

01:37:43   with a few polygons in code,

01:37:46   or I can give you an SVG or a PDF

01:37:48   so it's just a vector that's like a kilobyte.

01:37:51   Why do I have to render a 1024 x 1024 PNG image

01:37:56   and also give you this image in 14 different sizes?

01:37:59   And fortunately, over time,

01:38:02   they seem to be moving away from that.

01:38:03   And every new OS update that comes out,

01:38:06   usually there's a way for me to decrease

01:38:08   the amount of those assets that I have to have in the app.

01:38:11   And this summer there are a few of those

01:38:14   little niceties as well, so I'm happy about that.

01:38:16   But yeah, where most of my size comes from

01:38:19   is stuff like the watch extension

01:38:23   or previously having to embed Swift runtime stuff,

01:38:28   although the need for that is going down over time as well.

01:38:31   But yeah, it's mostly that kind of overhead.

01:38:34   The actual overcast code is a few megs at most.

01:38:37   - Yeah, the Mac API is pretty much one bit maps

01:38:39   for things too, and it's annoying,

01:38:41   especially when, for example, the menu bar icons,

01:38:43   those are template images that treat you

01:38:45   as template images.

01:38:46   There are ways that you can use a PDF for them,

01:38:48   but a lot of the APIs do ask you for PNGs,

01:38:50   and like the Mac icons, where they wanted 100 size,

01:38:53   now there's a way where you can just give it one size,

01:38:54   say like, I'm just gonna give you one size,

01:38:56   just use this everywhere,

01:38:56   which is not best practice on the Mac,

01:38:58   because you really should be tweaking your icons

01:39:00   to read better at smaller sizes and stuff.

01:39:01   But yeah, there's a lot of bitmaps.

01:39:03   I mean, something that programmers might not realize,

01:39:05   but like everything should just be vectors.

01:39:07   It's like in the end, something is turning that into a bitmap

01:39:09   to put it on your screen.

01:39:11   And so you can see how it's more convenient to just start

01:39:13   with a bitmap disk, and you can like memory

01:39:15   map it and do all sorts of stuff.

01:39:16   But the new APIs are doing that for us behind the scenes.

01:39:19   Something-- there's another thing

01:39:21   people don't realize about-- you've talked about this, Marco,

01:39:23   about that people who are a little bit technical,

01:39:26   but don't really think about the consequences.

01:39:28   Oh, JPEGs, those are compressed images.

01:39:30   They're really small and must be very efficient.

01:39:32   Yeah, it is an efficient way to store images,

01:39:34   but when you display that image on the screen,

01:39:37   something's gotta decompress it

01:39:38   and it needs to exist somewhere in decompressed form

01:39:41   so it can be put into a window buffer

01:39:43   that takes up memory somewhere.

01:39:44   And yes, the window backing stores are compressed on macOS

01:39:46   and probably on iOS as well,

01:39:48   but that compression is not as good as JPEG compression

01:39:50   'cause it needs to be really fast, right?

01:39:52   So yeah, things get big real fast,

01:39:55   whether they're big in memory or big on disk or big both.

01:39:59   And as for the incremental updates,

01:40:01   I have vague recollections of what you're talking about

01:40:03   too, Marco, but I would love for someone who Apple too,

01:40:05   or anyone who knows Pointless to the WWDC or whatever,

01:40:09   does app update do byte range diff deltas for updates,

01:40:14   or is it on a per file basis?

01:40:15   Because I can imagine updates being really big

01:40:19   if they're doing it per file,

01:40:21   because if you change like one,

01:40:22   if you change one little bit of metadata

01:40:23   on that 150 meg QuickTime movie that's your opening,

01:40:27   QuickTime movie, whatever,

01:40:28   that's your opening tutorial animation.

01:40:30   Like maybe all you just changed,

01:40:32   you removed GPS data that you didn't need to be there.

01:40:34   It's just metadata.

01:40:35   Like 99% of the bytes are the same.

01:40:37   Does it do byte diffs or does it say,

01:40:39   "Oh, this file has changed.

01:40:40   "Here's a new 150 megabytes."

01:40:42   If you know the answer to that question definitively,

01:40:44   please let us know.

01:40:46   - Indeed.

01:40:47   Another thing that I feel like I've seen in the past

01:40:50   is massive, but I can't cite a source

01:40:53   that confirms or denies it.

01:40:55   I thought a lot of these analytics and ad SDKs

01:40:58   tended to be just freaking huge.

01:41:00   Like I thought Firebase was massive as an example.

01:41:03   Again, I very well may be wrong about that,

01:41:05   but I thought some of these things were big.

01:41:06   - I mean, they're big, but not relative

01:41:08   to like 500 megabyte video file.

01:41:11   - Oh, sure, sure.

01:41:12   - They're bigger than they should be.

01:41:13   And I think Marco hit on the main one,

01:41:14   which is frameworks.

01:41:16   'Cause if you have some kind of framework

01:41:18   that has a widget library or whatever,

01:41:21   especially if it's a young framework,

01:41:24   they'll give you the whole framework.

01:41:25   You may never use that control in your app,

01:41:28   but you ship with the whole,

01:41:29   it's kind of like when the Swift runtime

01:41:30   shipped with everything,

01:41:31   they didn't really pare down the Swift runtime

01:41:33   as far as I know to just use the features

01:41:34   that your app use, you just get the whole thing.

01:41:36   And so if you're using, you know, React Native,

01:41:39   I'm not trying to blame or whatever,

01:41:40   like, you know, or the Mono back in the days,

01:41:43   I don't know if anyone still uses Xamarin.

01:41:44   Yeah, Xamarin stuff.

01:41:46   You just get the whole framework with your app

01:41:47   because it's very difficult to figure out

01:41:49   the exact features your app is using

01:41:50   and pare down the library so it just has those features

01:41:52   'cause everything is so interlinked.

01:41:54   And so, yeah, if you looked at your app

01:41:55   and just cracked it open and you'd be like,

01:41:57   "Look at all this image data, I'm not using any of this."

01:41:59   So like, that just comes as part of the framework.

01:42:00   I think that's probably the biggest source of bloat

01:42:02   but maybe SDKs are like that 'cause maybe the SDK itself

01:42:05   uses some cross-platform library that includes

01:42:07   a whole bunch of things that it doesn't use all of.

01:42:09   It adds up but I do feel like that

01:42:12   it is actually pretty difficult to outrun video files

01:42:17   or even just audio files if you have like,

01:42:19   long amounts of audio, video files, images,

01:42:21   and stuff like that can outrun your code load size

01:42:23   pretty quickly if you have any substantial number of them.

01:42:26   - Yeah, and also like on framework problems,

01:42:31   the number of frameworks and the size of them

01:42:33   that you add to your app is oftentimes done,

01:42:36   either you don't have much say in the matter,

01:42:38   or you do it without actually really investigating this.

01:42:41   So for instance, if your app is ad funded,

01:42:43   like for most ad packages, you have to add in

01:42:47   whatever the Google one or whatever,

01:42:49   But if your app is ad-based, you may have to add

01:42:53   three or five or 10 different ad platforms SDKs

01:42:57   just so you have the ability to maybe show their ads.

01:43:00   And oftentimes there's logic in some of these SDKs

01:43:03   where they bid for the spot and whoever is gonna pay you

01:43:07   the most, you can show the ad from that provider.

01:43:09   But that means that every provider you might show the ad

01:43:12   from, you gotta build on their SDK.

01:43:14   And so, and there's, I mean fortunately,

01:43:16   there's been so much ridiculous consolidation

01:43:18   in this business if there aren't that many of them left,

01:43:20   but that is still a thing that people do.

01:43:22   And so, you end up with, if an app is ad supported,

01:43:26   you end up with huge amounts of bloat there.

01:43:28   But also just in general, the style of development

01:43:33   that so many developers these days

01:43:35   across multiple platforms, not just iOS apps,

01:43:38   the style of development these days is

01:43:41   if there's a need that you have,

01:43:43   the first thing you do is look for a package

01:43:45   or a framework that offers it

01:43:47   and just blindly add it to your project

01:43:50   and don't even care how big it is

01:43:52   or what it's adding or what it needs.

01:43:54   You know, like Node is famous for this

01:43:56   where they go totally overboard

01:43:57   and there's that example of like the, you know,

01:43:59   the is even thing that required is odd to know, you know.

01:44:02   And that was, I mean, that seemed like it was almost a parody

01:44:04   but that culture is so deep in developers these days

01:44:07   that it just, you know, we as an industry

01:44:09   have like framework-itis where you're so quick to jump

01:44:13   to add a framework for a very simple need

01:44:16   and there's so relatively little scrutiny put on

01:44:20   what that means and what that's going to cost your app

01:44:23   in terms of size and bloat and complexity

01:44:25   and impossible security issues down the road.

01:44:27   And that's just how, that's like the best practice

01:44:30   these days and people make fun of me for not doing this.

01:44:33   You know, you make fun of me for writing my own S3 class

01:44:35   or whatever but like, yeah but my class is 200 lines

01:44:38   and the real one's 100,000 or whatever.

01:44:41   Like that stuff adds up.

01:44:42   That's how everyone programs these days.

01:44:44   everyone programs by just jumping to a whole bunch

01:44:47   of frameworks.

01:44:48   Oh, I need to do this relatively simple calculation

01:44:51   or show this relatively simple kind of widget.

01:44:52   How about I add this entire framework over here

01:44:55   just to have this one simple thing

01:44:56   that I could have written myself in an hour.

01:44:58   - I wouldn't say it's the best practice

01:45:00   to do what you're describing.

01:45:01   To give an example--

01:45:02   - Oh, it's what happens.

01:45:03   - This is very close to your example,

01:45:05   but this is a real example from my previous job.

01:45:08   When we started to do much more stuff with AWS,

01:45:10   We, of course, wanted to be able to use the AWS APIs.

01:45:15   We had already had our own S3 library,

01:45:16   because that's a simple thing to do, as Marco found out.

01:45:19   But we needed to do more stuff.

01:45:20   There's more things you can do with AWS.

01:45:22   They have APIs for everything.

01:45:24   And so, of course, we're using Perl, which is weird,

01:45:25   and we have limited choices.

01:45:27   But anyway, someone-- some developer and some other team--

01:45:30   decided, I'm going to go to CPAN, which

01:45:32   is where you get Perl modules from,

01:45:33   and I'm going to find a good AWS library.

01:45:35   And they found one.

01:45:35   They said, oh, yeah, I want this thing that gives access

01:45:39   to the AWS API for services.

01:45:42   I'm going to add this, and I added it to their task,

01:45:44   and they're sending their tasks through the process

01:45:46   of approvals and stuff like that,

01:45:48   and I was somewhere in the approval chain

01:45:50   as one of the higher-up sign-offs on things or whatever,

01:45:54   and I had to give that a big red X and say, "Eh-eh."

01:45:57   And they said, "Why? What's wrong with this?

01:45:58   Why can't I have this thing?"

01:45:59   I'm like, "Well, you included this dependency,

01:46:01   this new dependency on this new library."

01:46:03   I was sort of the keeper of the CPAN libraries

01:46:05   and the tools that we used to install them.

01:46:07   Like, yeah, I need that for the AWS API.

01:46:09   Like, did you look at that dependency at all?

01:46:13   I think I have the numbers close here.

01:46:14   I'll try to put a link in the show notes if I'm right about it.

01:46:17   But this is from memory.

01:46:18   So we had C-band modules installed across the company.

01:46:21   And these are the modules that we use.

01:46:23   And we used version control to track them.

01:46:25   If you added another one that had to go through approvals,

01:46:27   everything was all checked in, like all that stuff, right?

01:46:29   Not like Nodeware.

01:46:30   It was pulled down in the build process.

01:46:32   It was very sort of baked in.

01:46:34   And this, including this one new dependency,

01:46:38   would increase the number of files by like 50%.

01:46:43   I believe there were 32,000 files.

01:46:46   - Oh my gosh. - 32,000 files

01:46:50   as part of this distribution.

01:46:52   I'm doing that from memory.

01:46:53   If you would like to download this tarball and untar it

01:46:56   and then just do a find WC-L to find out how many files

01:46:59   are in this thing, I'm like, yeah,

01:47:02   This task that you're doing is not worth increasing.

01:47:06   Over the course of the 20 years this company has existed,

01:47:08   we've added like 65,000 files in our company

01:47:13   sort of CPAN module repository.

01:47:16   You're not gonna add 32,000 as part of this one task.

01:47:19   Find the AWS APIs that you wanna use,

01:47:22   write your own functions to do them,

01:47:25   and you'll fit it in a page of code.

01:47:27   Please do not add this library.

01:47:29   And hopefully, this didn't happen when I was there.

01:47:31   we should also put a corporate rule.

01:47:32   So the next person who says,

01:47:34   hey, I wanna use this API for my API,

01:47:35   oh great, there's a library that gives me access

01:47:37   to the entire AWS API.

01:47:38   And obviously this is auto-generated,

01:47:39   like that's a lot of problem with these things.

01:47:41   They're auto-generated.

01:47:41   If there's a spec for the API,

01:47:43   there's some like, you know, JSON schema

01:47:45   or some kind of, what is that spec case you might know?

01:47:48   - XSLT?

01:47:49   - No, that's old.

01:47:51   - The standard for describing web APIs

01:47:53   where you can auto-generate an interface to it

01:47:55   and everything like that.

01:47:56   Anyway. - Wait, so we're

01:47:57   auto-generating all of our spam now?

01:47:58   Like that's even better.

01:48:00   - No, it's a, Swagger, thank you.

01:48:02   Gordon Freeman had a Swagger.

01:48:05   It's a way to describe API.

01:48:06   So if you have your API described in Swagger,

01:48:08   there's lots of tools that can, you know,

01:48:10   just let you play with the API in that way.

01:48:13   But anyway, it's so clear that this,

01:48:14   no human wrote 32,000 files.

01:48:16   It was auto-generated based on the API spec,

01:48:18   which is cool until you have 32,000 new files

01:48:21   in your source code repo.

01:48:23   It's like, yeah, no.

01:48:24   So that is not best practice,

01:48:26   and that's kind of the role of more senior people

01:48:28   to sanity check that because you're right, Marko,

01:48:31   people will, if they're not experienced, say,

01:48:32   "I found a thing that solves my problem,

01:48:34   "let me just add it."

01:48:35   But you should look at what you're adding.

01:48:39   And that's the thing with modern computers being so fast,

01:48:41   oh, it's just real easy, like, you know,

01:48:43   everything's fast, everyone's using SSDs or whatever.

01:48:46   If I had you to guess, how many files do you think

01:48:47   you added in that task?

01:48:48   I don't know, it was probably like a couple hundred,

01:48:50   nope, 32,000.

01:48:51   - Well, and the thing is, like, you know,

01:48:54   if you think to look for it, that's one thing.

01:48:57   But when you involve working with companies,

01:49:00   even if that one developer is like,

01:49:03   hey, I probably don't wanna do this

01:49:05   because it adds this thing,

01:49:07   if their boss is like, just do it,

01:49:08   like we need to hit this ship date

01:49:11   or we need to solve this need

01:49:13   or have this requirement met,

01:49:14   you just have to do this and that's it.

01:49:16   Because the way that bloat on your users' devices

01:49:21   is treated by almost every software publisher of any type,

01:49:25   it's treated like you're spending someone else's money.

01:49:28   Like they don't think, they don't consider at all,

01:49:31   hey, maybe we shouldn't be taking up hundreds of megs

01:49:35   for our very relatively simple app need

01:49:38   on every person's device who has to use this.

01:49:41   And that adds up, like first of all,

01:49:44   that's eating into your storage.

01:49:45   Then you gotta like buy more expensive phones or whatever

01:49:48   to have bigger storage needs.

01:49:51   That also, all that code at some point's gonna be loaded

01:49:54   into memory, or at least a large part of it

01:49:55   is gonna be loaded into memory.

01:49:57   And so then you're eating into people's memory

01:49:58   on their devices, you're making their batteries

01:50:00   not last as long, you're making other apps

01:50:02   get kicked out of memory more often,

01:50:03   therefore making everything slower

01:50:05   when it has to switch apps and reload stuff.

01:50:07   Those are all real costs.

01:50:10   We had this discussion a lot back, a few months back

01:50:12   when OnePass switched over to Electron

01:50:14   and we all complained about that.

01:50:16   This kind of stuff matters.

01:50:17   These companies and these developers,

01:50:20   whatever processes or sloppiness are leading

01:50:22   to this massive bloat, they're spending everyone else's

01:50:25   money, but they're not spending their own.

01:50:26   They don't consider it as like, this is gonna cost us

01:50:29   in our app being big and bloated.

01:50:31   No, they don't care.

01:50:32   Or the people who are making the decisions can't care

01:50:35   'cause some other decisions being made above their head

01:50:37   that's forced them to do things a certain way.

01:50:38   And that's, when you're an indie, you can care

01:50:41   about things that big companies might not care about.

01:50:44   Because you can just do things the way you want to

01:50:46   and with your own priorities and your own sensibilities.

01:50:49   And there's no one else telling you from above

01:50:51   of like, hey, we really gotta hit the ship date

01:50:54   and make this quota or fulfill this requirement

01:50:57   or comply with this regulation or something.

01:51:00   Like, you don't have the needs of big companies.

01:51:02   So that's why our apps are able to be so much nicer

01:51:05   in certain ways, because we're able to make decisions

01:51:07   just for us.

01:51:08   - I was unfair to this AWS module.

01:51:10   I will put a link to it in the show notes.

01:51:11   It only has 30,165 files.

01:51:15   - Oh, you are such a meanie.

01:51:17   You are so mean.

01:51:18   - Which I now just untarred onto my desktop,

01:51:21   So I will never move that.

01:51:21   You know, if you're in the business of selling

01:51:23   computing resources, maybe making your libraries really

01:51:26   bloated might be a very profitable move.

01:51:28   No, this is-- to be clear, this is not an Amazon library.

01:51:31   This is a library that just some random person,

01:51:33   the goodness of their heart, auto-generated and uploaded

01:51:35   to CPAN based on some AWS API definition.

01:51:38   So I'm not faulting the person who made this.

01:51:41   It provides comprehensive coverage

01:51:42   for apparently the entire AWS API at the time

01:51:45   they generated this file.

01:51:46   It's just too big to include if you need one or two functions.

01:51:50   Alright, then finally for today, Robert Campbell writes, "Are you familiar with SV-ALT or Svalt?"

01:51:55   I'm not sure how I'm supposed to pronounce this.

01:51:57   Anyway, "They make outboard cooling accessories for laptops.

01:51:59   I'm getting ready to upgrade and considering a move from desktop Mac to MacBook Pro if

01:52:04   I could get sustained performance for large photography processing tasks.

01:52:08   Assuming even an M1 Mac's MacBook Pro will eventually throttle under sustained processing

01:52:11   loads, do you think an outboard cooling booster like the Svalt might move the needle?

01:52:16   I'd love to make this thing as fast as possible when docked at my home office.

01:52:19   Maybe I'm overly sensitive to heat-induced performance issues having been burned in the

01:52:22   past?"

01:52:24   Background info.

01:52:25   I run a photography, retouching, and graphic design business and am thinking about replacing

01:52:28   2 Macs, an Office 2017 iMac, which is having trouble keeping up, and a similar aged on-site

01:52:33   MacBook Pro that's even slower, with a single top-spec 14-inch MacBook Pro Max dropping

01:52:38   the desktop Mac.

01:52:39   The new MacBook Pro will spend 80% of its time docked to my office and 20% on-site.

01:52:43   I've maintained the two-machine workflow as previous MacBook Pros have trouble staying

01:52:46   cool and slow down dramatically during long production drops.

01:52:50   For many of the reasons you guys have discussed at length, I'd love to reduce my two machines

01:52:53   to one.

01:52:54   I don't know.

01:52:55   I don't know anything about this.

01:52:57   Do you guys have thoughts?

01:52:58   So I have never used this one particular company's things, but I looked at them when this email

01:53:03   came in and it looks like, basically like a laptop, like a clamshell mode laptop stand

01:53:09   that is itself a giant block of metal that has some fins carved out.

01:53:12   So like it looks cool.

01:53:13   I will say it looks cool.

01:53:17   Some of them have optional fans

01:53:18   that you could mount on them and everything.

01:53:19   But I can tell you, as somebody who,

01:53:22   I drive my MacBook pretty hard.

01:53:24   Now granted, I don't have a photo retouching workflow.

01:53:27   That's a very different type of load

01:53:29   than what I'm doing to mine.

01:53:30   But that being said, I would suggest get the 16 inch,

01:53:35   put it in whatever clamshell stand you already use,

01:53:39   or whatever you can find, and just try it first.

01:53:43   I think you will be surprised how much it takes

01:53:47   to make it slow down.

01:53:48   Because, you know, like, so what Robert said

01:53:51   right in the middle here is assuming even an M1 max MBP

01:53:56   will eventually throttle under sustained processing loads,

01:53:58   comma, that's not a safe assumption, actually.

01:54:02   Like, I would suggest, like, try it and see if it actually

01:54:06   does throttle under sustained loads of your type.

01:54:09   because I can tell you I have never seen mine throttle.

01:54:14   When I'm, if I'm destroying the CPUs,

01:54:18   not only does it not throttle

01:54:20   and it stays the same speed the whole time,

01:54:22   but I don't even hear the fans.

01:54:24   Like you're lucky if you can even hear the fan spin up

01:54:27   with these new ones, they're that good.

01:54:29   As you know, throttling is a different story.

01:54:32   Like to make a throttle it has to both be at its max,

01:54:36   you know, cooling abilities,

01:54:38   so the fan running at whatever its max speed is,

01:54:41   and still not be able to keep up.

01:54:42   That's when it will actually throttle.

01:54:44   I've never seen the M1 Max 16-inch even come close.

01:54:48   The 14-inch might, because it's smaller,

01:54:51   has presumably a little bit less thermal mass in there,

01:54:54   but if you get the 16,

01:54:56   I think you'd be very hard-pressed

01:54:58   to make it throttle at all.

01:54:59   The only time I've ever even heard the fans been up on mine

01:55:01   is when I was doing a multi-hour-long ML training model

01:55:07   that was totally saturating the CPUs and the GPUs

01:55:12   for multiple hours straight.

01:55:14   Then the fan spun up a little bit

01:55:16   and it was a little bit audible.

01:55:18   That being said, if you're looking at something like this,

01:55:24   one of the reasons, I looked at it 'cause I was like,

01:55:27   hey, I keep my MacBook in clampstone mode all the time,

01:55:29   maybe I should look at this.

01:55:30   I didn't end up going with it and part of the reason why

01:55:33   is that for these things to work, just physically speaking,

01:55:37   the hot part of the laptop has to be on the bottom,

01:55:40   the way you orient it in clamshell mode.

01:55:43   The hot part is the part basically between

01:55:45   the screen hinge and the keyboard.

01:55:47   That's like where all the heat sinks

01:55:49   and main processors and everything are.

01:55:51   I flip mine over so that the hinge of the screen is up.

01:55:58   And the reason I do that is to give it a little bit

01:56:00   of boost in convection cooling.

01:56:02   Because that way it is sucking air in

01:56:04   from those little side slot vents,

01:56:06   sucking them in on the bottom and shooting hot air

01:56:09   out of the top through the screen hinge vent.

01:56:12   And I don't know if this makes a big difference

01:56:15   or a small difference, but it probably makes a difference.

01:56:18   And so even just running it in any stand that way

01:56:21   with the screen hinge up instead of down,

01:56:24   I think you'll be totally fine.

01:56:26   I don't think you need anything else.

01:56:28   And if you actually are stressing both the GPU and CPU

01:56:32   for sustained periods, you might hear the fan.

01:56:35   That's a very different thing from throttling.

01:56:37   And again, I've said it before, I'll say it again,

01:56:41   the assumptions that you've made about how Macs behave,

01:56:46   performance-wise, noise-wise, thermally,

01:56:49   if you've made those assumptions only with Intel machines,

01:56:54   drop all those assumptions when you're moving

01:56:56   into the M1 and M2 era,

01:56:58   because those assumptions no longer hold the way they did,

01:57:02   and the performance characteristics

01:57:04   and thermal characteristics of these things

01:57:05   are very, very different than what you are used to,

01:57:08   and they're way better.

01:57:10   And so, try, you know, if you're gonna do this,

01:57:13   you don't need a heat sink probably for almost any,

01:57:15   like unless you're working in a very hot environment

01:57:18   doing, you know, video rendering 24/7,

01:57:21   maybe, even then, probably not.

01:57:24   But just get the 16 inch and run it

01:57:26   in regular clamshell mode with the screen hinge up

01:57:28   on any stand, and I would be shocked

01:57:31   if you could actually make that thing thermally throttle.

01:57:34   Well, so the thing is, when he gets new Macs,

01:57:36   it's gonna be so much faster than his old Macs,

01:57:38   no matter what, even if it was throttled to 50% speed,

01:57:41   like there's that, so you won't mind that.

01:57:43   And the other thing is, you won't notice if it throttles.

01:57:46   It doesn't mean that it's not throttling.

01:57:48   If you look at the people doing these really picky

01:57:49   benchmarks where they're getting the clock speeds

01:57:52   of the sub-execution units inside the SOC, right?

01:57:56   You can see that parts of it do throttle,

01:57:58   even when the fans aren't running in an audible way,

01:58:00   just because you get hotspots, but you won't notice

01:58:02   unless you're running like a benchmark

01:58:04   and comparing fractional percentages

01:58:07   of performance difference.

01:58:08   The reason they're noticing is because they wanted to see,

01:58:10   with the M2 MacBook Air, which we know does thermally

01:58:12   throttle in a way that you might actually notice,

01:58:14   the Pros also have subcomponents that sometimes

01:58:17   thermally throttle even when the fans are low,

01:58:19   but by such a fraction of a percent,

01:58:21   you would never notice unless you're running a benchmark.

01:58:23   And again, keep in mind that this new computer

01:58:25   you're gonna buy is gonna be so much faster

01:58:26   than your old computers,

01:58:27   you will never miss that fraction or percent,

01:58:29   so don't worry about it.

01:58:30   But related to this thing, with the M2 MacBook Air,

01:58:33   people have been experimenting with it,

01:58:34   and you have thermal throttles, and I've said on past shows,

01:58:36   I think that's the right call for that machine,

01:58:38   because fanlessness is itself a feature,

01:58:40   and Apple should ship a computer that is fanless,

01:58:42   and this is the one, and thermal throttling is,

01:58:45   you know, a perfectly good price to pay,

01:58:47   because even with the thermal throttling,

01:58:48   it's still faster than the machine it replaces,

01:58:50   and it is exactly as silent,

01:58:51   because neither one has a fan, right?

01:58:53   But people wanna tinker, and one of the things

01:58:56   they did with tinkering was they took the M2 MacBook Air,

01:58:58   and they just put thermal pads inside it,

01:59:00   like they replaced the little black vinyl stickery thing

01:59:04   that is itself a heat transfer

01:59:05   and just use the thermal pads that you would put in

01:59:08   for removing heat in a PC build or whatever.

01:59:11   And then it made a huge difference.

01:59:13   But it made a huge difference in a way

01:59:14   that we've discussed on past things.

01:59:17   Those thermal pads were taking heat

01:59:19   away from the SOC and the other components

01:59:22   and dumping it to the case of the computer,

01:59:24   which makes the computer feel hotter.

01:59:27   And there are rules about how hot the computer can get

01:59:31   and still be allowed to be on people's laps.

01:59:33   And so I think the M2 MacBook Air is calibrated

01:59:36   to not even come close to getting too hot to comply

01:59:39   with whatever different countries rules are about,

01:59:42   hey, here's how hot your laptop can get

01:59:44   and still be a consumer product, right?

01:59:46   'Cause you don't want it to burn people.

01:59:47   And I think the consumer rules governing that

01:59:49   are way far back from burning people.

01:59:52   Although it's hard to believe if you think about

01:59:53   some of the Mac laptops of the past

01:59:55   and just how hot they got in certain areas.

01:59:57   But that's kind of the trade off with laptops.

02:00:01   A lot of them have like quote unquote,

02:00:02   not very good cooling,

02:00:04   because the hotness has to go somewhere.

02:00:06   It's like, why don't you just dump it to the case?

02:00:08   Well, now your case is hot.

02:00:09   And even if it's not so hot,

02:00:10   that's gonna burn you or whatever, it's uncomfortable.

02:00:12   No one wants a hot computer on their lap.

02:00:14   So a lot of these times,

02:00:15   especially with the M2 MacBook Air,

02:00:16   I feel like the computer is choking down heat on your behalf

02:00:20   rather than dumping it to the top of your legs.

02:00:22   And you should thank it for that.

02:00:23   Because like I said,

02:00:24   Even when it's thermally throttling,

02:00:25   it's still faster than the M1 version in most tasks.

02:00:28   But yeah, for Robert's question,

02:00:31   just get an M1 Macs MacBook Pro.

02:00:34   It will rock your world, it'll be great.

02:00:37   - Yeah.

02:00:38   Thanks to our sponsors this week,

02:00:39   Snap AR, Memberful, and Collide.

02:00:42   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

02:00:44   You can join at atp.fm/join.

02:00:47   We will talk to you next week.

02:00:49   (upbeat music)

02:00:52   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

02:00:57   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:00:59   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

02:01:02   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:01:07   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:01:10   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

02:01:13   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:01:18   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

02:01:22   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:01:27   So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:01:31   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

02:01:39   It's accidental (it's accidental)

02:01:42   They didn't mean to accidental (it's accidental)

02:01:47   ♪ Tech, podcast, so long ♪

02:01:50   - So a couple of weeks ago I did something

02:01:54   I have never done before.

02:01:56   And because we haven't had enough car talk on this show,

02:01:59   I thought I'd talk about my car for a minute.

02:02:01   - Yeah, let's do it.

02:02:02   - I replaced the wheels on my car.

02:02:05   And I now have different wheels than what it came with.

02:02:08   I have never had the occasion to do that before.

02:02:09   - Now wait, when you say I replaced the wheels on my car--

02:02:12   - Oh, I didn't do it.

02:02:13   - He doesn't have one of those machines

02:02:15   that takes the wheels off the rim.

02:02:17   - Yeah.

02:02:18   - Well, no, no, no, I could,

02:02:19   well, you mean the tire off the wheel?

02:02:21   No, I do not have that machine.

02:02:23   No, my car came with summer tires,

02:02:26   which means that under like 55 degrees,

02:02:29   I really shouldn't be driving the car.

02:02:31   I did.

02:02:32   I never drove it in snow because that's just suicidal,

02:02:35   but I did occasionally drive the car

02:02:36   at less than 55 degrees.

02:02:38   And despite what you two think,

02:02:39   I know you think I live in some tropical wasteland,

02:02:41   but well, I guess right now at this time of year I do,

02:02:44   - Yeah, bad time example.

02:02:47   - Not all year though.

02:02:48   And so, in the winter time it does get relatively cold.

02:02:52   And so I found myself not really driving my car

02:02:55   very much in the winter, which was a bummer.

02:02:57   And I finally got to the point in my stock tires

02:03:00   after what, three years, four years, something like that.

02:03:03   When did I get the car?

02:03:04   2018, so four years.

02:03:05   I finally blew through the tires,

02:03:07   which is impressive 'cause I forget what was on them stock,

02:03:10   but whatever it was, it was soft enough

02:03:12   that they shouldn't have lasted four years,

02:03:13   But they did, because I never drive anywhere.

02:03:15   So I was hemming and hawing about what to do.

02:03:19   And I decided what I wanted to do was replace the Volkswagen

02:03:23   English Town wheels, which is what it came with.

02:03:26   And it was the only thing that the car came with, the only

02:03:29   option I had for the car when it was new.

02:03:32   And even though years before and after had different

02:03:35   options, I wanted to replace the Volkswagen English Town

02:03:38   wheels, which I friggin' hate, and I have always hated, with

02:03:42   the Volkswagen Pretoria wheels, which are the ones that I--

02:03:46   - Wait a second.

02:03:47   You just got good on explaining how you had summer tires

02:03:49   and you didn't want summer tires,

02:03:50   and suddenly now we were replacing the wheels?

02:03:52   Is replacing the tires a prerequisite

02:03:54   to replacing the wheels?

02:03:55   - Yes, because why would I get rid of,

02:03:57   why would I stop using the stock wheels

02:04:01   that had the stock tires on them

02:04:03   when the tires still had a bunch of tread left in them?

02:04:05   I'm a frugal man, or something's frugal.

02:04:07   - Oh, so you're gonna switch back to the summer tires

02:04:09   in the summer? - No, no, no, no, no.

02:04:11   I want a permanent switch from what I had to something new.

02:04:15   - So why didn't you just get new tires for your car?

02:04:17   - Because I hate the wheels.

02:04:18   I want new wheels.

02:04:19   - They're not connected.

02:04:21   This is two separate things.

02:04:21   One, you don't like the wheels and want new wheels.

02:04:23   Two, you wanna have tires so you can drive it in the winter.

02:04:26   But those seem like two separate tasks.

02:04:27   You just combine them into one as if they're connected,

02:04:29   but it's just aesthetic annoyance,

02:04:32   and then I'm not able to drive my car in the winter,

02:04:34   and so I need new tires.

02:04:35   - Right.

02:04:36   Well, and I also need to do tires because the summer tires,

02:04:38   like I said, were shot at this point.

02:04:39   Like, not only did I hate that they were summer only,

02:04:42   but they were, they were--

02:04:43   - Yeah, that's the thing you have to do

02:04:45   to, like, the practical thing.

02:04:46   I can't drive my car as much,

02:04:48   both because the tires are worn out,

02:04:49   and even when they weren't worn out,

02:04:50   I can't wear them in the winter, so I need new tires.

02:04:52   But then the wheel thing is just like,

02:04:53   while I'm in there, I found a way to spend more money,

02:04:55   which is, I don't like these wheels.

02:04:56   - That's exactly right.

02:04:58   So, I decided to get Pretoria wheels,

02:05:00   and then my buddy that I talk about often,

02:05:03   who is one of the ones that convinced me

02:05:04   to get this car in the first place,

02:05:06   kept nagging me and saying, "You should go down an inch. You should go down an inch.

02:05:11   You should go down an inch. I'm telling you, you should go down an inch." It comes with

02:05:14   19-inch wheels. He kept beating me up saying, "Go 18. Go 18. Go 18." If he had hitched his

02:05:21   druthers, I would have gone 17 inches. But he said, "No, I know you'll never go 17 inches.

02:05:27   Go 18 inches." So what I did was I bought--Volkswagen actually makes an 18-inch version of the Pretoria,

02:05:33   is my beloved wheel, I will put links in the show notes, and I went and bought 18-inch

02:05:38   Pretoria's and had and got new tires mounted on there. And now I have my beloved wheel,

02:05:46   the Pretoria, with 18-inch tires, 18-inch wheel and tire combination. And I gotta tell you,

02:05:52   I think he was right about going down an inch, because now I don't feel every pebble in the road,

02:05:59   even in race mode, because I have the, you know, magnetic suspension where it actually gets stiffer

02:06:03   as you move through different modes.

02:06:05   And in race mode, I needed new kidneys

02:06:09   by the time I drove a mile or two.

02:06:11   And now, I only need a new back, not new kidneys.

02:06:14   So that's a marked improvement.

02:06:16   - No, I mean, as far as I'm concerned,

02:06:17   there is no benefit to bigger wheels

02:06:21   except if you like the way they look.

02:06:24   Everything else is better when you get smaller ones

02:06:27   and just get bigger tires.

02:06:28   - There is sometimes also a performance advantage

02:06:31   depending on the setup,

02:06:32   But this is the ever increasing size of wheels on cars

02:06:36   is a great example of customers voting with their wallet

02:06:39   for a thing that is on paper worse for everybody involved.

02:06:43   But people really like how it looks.

02:06:44   Like that's why whenever you see like a concept car

02:06:46   or even more, forget about concept car,

02:06:48   when you see somewhat a sketch of a concept car,

02:06:50   you know they show you like the designer sketch.

02:06:52   In the designer sketch the wheels,

02:06:54   like they don't even have tires on.

02:06:55   They don't even have rubber bands around them.

02:06:56   They're just like massive discs that are huge

02:06:59   'cause it looks cool.

02:07:01   And people have been paying for that.

02:07:03   They say we want bigger wheels.

02:07:05   The wheels have just been going up and up.

02:07:06   Even my Honda Accord, I think my first Honda Accord

02:07:07   had like 15 inch wheels.

02:07:09   Now my Honda Accord I think has either 18 inch

02:07:11   or 19 inch wheels on it.

02:07:12   It's just wheel inflation is everywhere.

02:07:14   And people don't care that the ride is worse.

02:07:16   And so this is my recommendation for anybody

02:07:18   who is about to spend six figures on a fancy luxury car

02:07:21   and you're listening to our show,

02:07:22   A, join up at ATP.M/join, please.

02:07:25   But B, do not go for the 22 inches.

02:07:28   Do not go for the 23 inch wheels.

02:07:30   Yes, I know they look the coolest,

02:07:32   but if you want to get your money's worth

02:07:34   out of your $300,000 fancy car that you're getting,

02:07:37   pick the smallest, the smallest wheel's gonna be

02:07:39   like 20 freaking inches anyway.

02:07:41   Just get the smallest wheel you can get

02:07:43   if you value your spine at all.

02:07:46   - Yep, yeah, and so this has been really good.

02:07:49   I really don't personally, this is just for me,

02:07:53   I personally don't care for the look of most cars

02:07:58   with non-OEM wheels, with wheels that did not come with the car.

02:08:02   In this case, I'm cheating a little bit because in the year before my car was made, the year

02:08:06   after, the car was offered with this exact wheel in 19 inches, and so I'm kind of still

02:08:13   within my own rule set.

02:08:17   But I think these ones look so much better.

02:08:21   And the other advantage of going from 19 inches to 18 inches, and I'm not 100% sure of these

02:08:25   numbers off the top of my head, but I believe the 19-inch wheel is something like $800 a

02:08:30   wheel, and that's without any rubber around it. It's $800 a wheel for the 19 inches, and

02:08:35   the 18-inch was like $400 a wheel or something like that.

02:08:39   Such a bargain.

02:08:40   Well, yeah, it's still a pile of money, don't get me wrong.

02:08:42   You mentioned wanting the essentially first-party wheels, and I mostly feel that way as well,

02:08:46   but I have to say, someone in my neighborhood has a Honda Accord of my generation with third-party

02:08:51   wheels on it that are not Honda wheels that look really good and I look at them

02:08:56   and I like well I have two things here one my wheels are super duper curbed yes

02:09:00   some of that oh a lot of it is other people live in this house but yeah I

02:09:04   don't like having my wheels but they call curb rash they've been hit into

02:09:08   pieces of cement that has caused damage to them and it is not attractive but the

02:09:13   other thing is I think these wheels I see in the neighborhood I thought they

02:09:17   look really good now they look boy racery they actually kind of look like

02:09:20   like these Pretoria wheels, but even more boy racery,

02:09:23   and they're kind of like inappropriate,

02:09:24   and people would probably laugh at them,

02:09:26   because why should a Honda Accord

02:09:27   have such sporty wheels on it, but they looked really good.

02:09:29   Next time I see it, I'm gonna take a picture of it

02:09:30   and show you, and you can tell me

02:09:32   if I should never ever do this.

02:09:33   Like maybe this is like my version of like the Civic Type R,

02:09:35   like should I get a giant wing on my Accord,

02:09:37   and just say no, don't do it,

02:09:38   but boy, I liked how these wheels look.

02:09:40   So I fantasize about changing my wheels,

02:09:42   but the wheels that are on my car are $650 each

02:09:46   on a Honda Accord.

02:09:47   - Yeah, it's bananas, they're so expensive.

02:09:50   But yeah, I would be very interested to see specifically what you're talking about.

02:09:54   So please do send a picture along.

02:09:55   They're like this.

02:09:56   They're like six spoke or, no, how many is this?

02:09:59   Five times ten spoke.

02:10:00   I think they're either ten spoke or six spoke and they just have kind of like wire.

02:10:04   They make it look like a little race car and I thought they looked really good.

02:10:07   They'd probably get curbed even worse than my current wheels because they kind of stick

02:10:10   out a little bit, but I was like, wow, that actually looks good on an Accord.

02:10:13   Anyway, I shouldn't and probably never will buy new wheels for my car, but it is a fun

02:10:19   to fantasize about. Can I tell you though, one of the disadvantages of being the

02:10:23   only person in the house that is capable of driving your car, because again Erin

02:10:26   doesn't think she can drive a stick even though I, well it's been years since

02:10:30   she's tried, but I bet you she could. Nevertheless, when I curbed the snot out

02:10:36   of one of my wheels, which was 100% my fault, I couldn't even be like, "Well maybe

02:10:41   that was the time Erin took the car." No, no. She's driven the car maybe once and it

02:10:46   was around the neighborhood, I think.

02:10:48   It was my fault, and I curbed the piss out of it.

02:10:51   Oh, if she had done that to one of her wheels,

02:10:53   I would be still beating her up years later.

02:10:54   - And so this is a, so fancy modern cars

02:10:57   with hilariously expensive wheels also these days

02:11:01   have the cool cameras that will show you

02:11:02   like the vertical view of how far your wheel

02:11:04   is from the curb, and I'm saying car makers

02:11:06   should go one better.

02:11:08   Forget about auto lane assist.

02:11:10   It should be literally impossible to drive a Ferrari's wheels

02:11:12   into the curb at two miles an hour.

02:11:14   Like the wheel should not let you do it.

02:11:17   They should have LIDAR sensors dedicated to knowing,

02:11:20   like put them in the wheels.

02:11:21   I don't care, like this is slow speed.

02:11:23   It just, I should not be able to turn the wheel

02:11:26   and curve the wheels on a car that expensive

02:11:28   'cause those wheels cost as much as my car,

02:11:30   individually probably,

02:11:31   'cause they're made of carbon fiber or whatever.

02:11:33   Just like I know the cameras are there

02:11:35   and you got the beeping

02:11:36   and you got all the different sensors and all the things,

02:11:38   but it's like, we need to just,

02:11:39   it needs to be an impossibility

02:11:41   to curve the wheels in these cars.

02:11:43   I see it all the time.

02:11:43   I look at fancy cars all the time.

02:11:45   I always look at their wheels, and you look at them,

02:11:47   and you're like, ooh.

02:11:48   You can just see that one or two bad days

02:11:52   that they had where they scraped the wheels, especially

02:11:54   in the Boston area where the roads are so narrow.

02:11:56   Everyone's got to get really close to the curb.

02:11:58   Everyone's in a hurry.

02:12:00   It's really easy to scrape a wheel.

02:12:02   You think you're never going to do it.

02:12:03   You're three years into owning a car.

02:12:05   You don't pay attention for one second.

02:12:07   It's like, well, you're either going to live with that,

02:12:09   or you're going to pay $700 for a new wheel.

02:12:12   I found the not caring option is really great in this case.

02:12:15   Like I decided like back when I got the Tesla,

02:12:19   I decided at that point, you know what,

02:12:21   I'm just gonna let the car get used.

02:12:24   And I'm gonna let it get worn,

02:12:26   and I'm just not gonna care about small stuff.

02:12:29   Now, when a plow hit it, I got that fixed.

02:12:32   But like, you know, I have like my winter rims

02:12:35   that I cut the snow tires on,

02:12:36   one of those is scratched up pretty badly

02:12:39   from a pretty bad curb incident.

02:12:40   And I just, I don't care.

02:12:41   I just, it's fine.

02:12:43   - This is the way to do it.

02:12:45   - 'Cause it's gonna, I use my car.

02:12:47   My car is a tool for me to use.

02:12:49   Like when I open up the trunk now,

02:12:53   there is so much dust and crap

02:12:55   that I can't even vacuum out anymore.

02:12:56   It's so buried in whatever the carpet stuff

02:12:58   in the bottom of the trunk.

02:13:00   I don't care, it's fine.

02:13:01   It's there to be used, right?

02:13:03   Like now, on The Defender,

02:13:05   now that I put that roof box on it,

02:13:07   I can't even go through a car wash with that thing anymore.

02:13:09   So therefore, it's never going to get washed.

02:13:12   - Oh my God, Marco.

02:13:13   - It's just never gonna happen,

02:13:15   'cause I'm not gonna do it.

02:13:16   (groans)

02:13:17   You know how much that matters?

02:13:18   Not at all.

02:13:19   - You could've had a trunk liner.

02:13:21   We have a rubberized truck liner,

02:13:22   so you can just take that out and hose it down,

02:13:24   and it's convenient.

02:13:26   But you should clean your car occasionally.

02:13:28   - Well, even for the Tesla,

02:13:29   I got rubber floor mats to try to,

02:13:32   you know how much good that did?

02:13:33   Now I have too many floor mats,

02:13:35   and who cares if I got dirt on the rugs?

02:13:38   That's what they're for.

02:13:39   They're designed to be used.

02:13:42   - Vacuuming is not too much of an ask.

02:13:43   You can do that.

02:13:44   I mean, you should get on my schedule.

02:13:46   I clean my car once a year whether it needs it or not.

02:13:48   - Oh my God, oh my God.

02:13:51   - Yeah, once a year I'll take the box off

02:13:52   and I'll go through an automatic car wash.

02:13:54   - But when I clean it, I take all the floor mats out,

02:13:56   I vacuum them, I take the trunk liner out,

02:13:58   I clean that out, I vacuum the whole inside of the car,

02:14:00   I wash the outside.

02:14:01   It's not like I'm detailing the car,

02:14:02   but you gotta get the, as Merleman said,

02:14:05   you gotta get the big stuff.

02:14:06   - All right, once a year I'll drive to Casey's house

02:14:07   and he can wash it for me.

02:14:09   Yes, please, for the love of God, please.

02:14:12   - You should watch, start watching some car detailing

02:14:14   channels to see what like actual fancy car detailers do.

02:14:17   I love watching those things like someone will bring

02:14:19   their McLaren F1 and you see how,

02:14:20   see what car detailing in the McLaren F1.

02:14:22   First of all, again, the detailing job on the McLaren F1

02:14:25   costs as much as my car, but they do a really good job.

02:14:28   They do a really, really good job.

02:14:29   The part where they're cleaning the brake calipers

02:14:31   with like Q-tips, you're like, okay,

02:14:33   they're getting the money's worth.

02:14:34   - Oh my God, I cannot, no.

02:14:36   I just, I can't make myself care that much.

02:14:38   It's just so much work.

02:14:40   - Ugh, I feel like I understand and agree

02:14:43   with the principle of what you're saying, Marco,

02:14:47   but I can't let go that much.

02:14:49   Like, my paint is awful because I've gone through

02:14:53   road debris that's left chips everywhere,

02:14:55   and it's just like, I've used the car, to your point.

02:14:58   And I am mostly okay with that.

02:15:00   - Yeah, that's what it's for, use it.

02:15:02   - Agreed, but I need to wash the car at least once a month.

02:15:07   - And curbing wheels is, that's like actual damage.

02:15:10   It's not like, oh, it's cosmetic.

02:15:12   Like, at a certain point, you're taking chunks of metal

02:15:14   off your wheels and it's, you know,

02:15:15   it's more than cosmetic.

02:15:16   - It is, but it's also like, it's such a common thing.

02:15:20   Like, you know, for instance, like, you know,

02:15:21   on the Tesla, last time I went to go get it,

02:15:24   when I moved out of the parking lot last time,

02:15:26   I noticed that I now have a very small scuff on the corner

02:15:29   where somebody parked next to it

02:15:30   and scuffed it on the way in.

02:15:31   It's way too small to get fixed by anybody.

02:15:35   This is a car that lives in parking lots most of its life.

02:15:37   Scuffs on the plastic bumpers are gonna happen to everybody.

02:15:40   You just have to wait for them to accumulate

02:15:41   to the point where you do it.

02:15:42   But curb wheels really hurt a lot 'cause it's metal

02:15:44   and it's like, there's no occasion.

02:15:46   Like bumpers are kind of,

02:15:48   you don't have control over that, but like,

02:15:50   you're not gonna, no one is going to accidentally

02:15:54   scrape by you and curb your wheels.

02:15:55   They're gonna hit your bumpers,

02:15:57   they're gonna leave some paint on your doors,

02:15:58   but the wheels will probably be fine.

02:16:00   So if the wheels are screwed up, it's because you did it.

02:16:02   And that's why it hurts.

02:16:03   [door closes]

02:16:05   [BLANK_AUDIO]