496: One of My Lesser TiVos


00:00:00   Well, I sound like this now.

00:00:03   That's a thing.

00:00:04   Got COVID again.

00:00:05   Yay, that's fun.

00:00:07   You know, and I thought I had managed to escape it.

00:00:10   So the rest of my family got it a few weeks ago.

00:00:13   I'm like super boosted.

00:00:14   I've had four vaccinations total.

00:00:18   Last one was in May, so pretty recent.

00:00:20   But of course, you know, the new variants are not as well protected by the vaccines

00:00:25   as the as the original variants were.

00:00:28   So anyway, my whole family got it,

00:00:31   and I thought I had escaped.

00:00:33   Like as soon as they got it,

00:00:35   we all started like, you know,

00:00:36   staying far apart from each other.

00:00:37   We would like eat, you know,

00:00:39   and our house here is very breezy,

00:00:40   so we keep all the windows open,

00:00:42   eat all the meals outside,

00:00:43   with like opposite ends of the long table,

00:00:45   like Dr. Evil's lair, you know, like super long, you know?

00:00:49   And like we were sleeping in separate rooms,

00:00:51   like everything, just to hope that, you know,

00:00:54   like Adam had it for like an hour,

00:00:56   Tiff had it for like three or four days and I was like, "Okay, maybe I think I dodged

00:01:01   it." And sure enough, I did dodge it from them. If you look at the timing, there's

00:01:06   pretty much no way I got it from that. But whatever, it's going around the island and

00:01:12   there were a lot of like big community events, all of which were outdoors in the last weekend.

00:01:17   But at some point, I got unlucky and here we are. So I dodged it when it was in my house

00:01:23   but was not able to dodge it

00:01:25   for the following weeks afterwards.

00:01:27   - I blame the test drives.

00:01:29   (laughing)

00:01:30   - Even that was too long ago.

00:01:31   - Right, no, it's like a three day incubation,

00:01:33   how long ago were the test drives?

00:01:34   - No, it would have had to be this past weekend.

00:01:37   You know, over the last couple of days

00:01:38   I had a bit of a scratchy throat, and I thought, oh no.

00:01:41   But I had no other symptoms.

00:01:43   It is, there's like a lot of flowers, you know,

00:01:45   blowing around outside, but I thought maybe,

00:01:48   maybe it's allergies, and I kept taking tests every morning

00:01:51   'cause I was scared I might have it.

00:01:53   and negative, negative, negative.

00:01:55   So I thought, great, okay, well, hey, this is weird,

00:01:58   but oh well, let's keep hoping that it's just allergies

00:02:02   and a weird August timeline, which never happens.

00:02:05   But okay, denial is very powerful.

00:02:08   So sure enough, this morning, I take one more test

00:02:12   'cause my throat's still scratchy and my voice is going

00:02:15   and it turned positive.

00:02:17   So I would say I reiterate my statement

00:02:21   if anybody out there is getting a weird sniffly cold this summer, you know, summer is not

00:02:27   typically cold season, and if you have a weird sniffly cold this summer or a scratchy throat,

00:02:31   you know, odds are it's probably this. Even if you test negative once or twice, like,

00:02:37   it's probably this.

00:02:39   So we'll all see whether or not the, what does it speak or say, what's the command line

00:02:43   thing if you have the computer talk. We'll see if we end up going back to that like we

00:02:47   did a few years a few years ago hopefully not but we shall see but if the episode is

00:02:51   a little bit shorter it's because we have sympathy for Marco's destroyed vocal chords

00:02:56   and that that would be why.

00:02:57   I mean you guys could just talk about like you know TVs and and you know sonologies and

00:03:01   stuff and I don't have much to say there.

00:03:03   Spoiler alert we're getting there we're getting there.

00:03:07   Hey John where do you boogie board and surf and whatnot if you're down under in Straya?

00:03:12   It's kind of weird that we mentioned stuff about the lifeguards and the flags they put

00:03:18   on the beach and where you're allowed to swim and where you're allowed to use boogie boards

00:03:21   in the context of my Long Island vacation and like 90-something percent of the feedback

00:03:26   was from Australians.

00:03:27   I don't know why.

00:03:28   I mean, the beach is everywhere.

00:03:30   We don't have a particularly big listenership in Australia, but everybody from Australia

00:03:35   wanted us to know how it works down there.

00:03:38   So here's Ross Polton with one bit of follow up on that.

00:03:42   He says "I used to be a lifeguard here in Australia.

00:03:44   Boards are not permitted "between the flags" i.e. in the safe swimming area as they're

00:03:49   often dangerous to other swimmers.

00:03:50   You wouldn't believe how many people lose control of them."

00:03:52   So that was the predominant suggestion from the Australians is basically people get hit

00:03:57   with boards.

00:03:58   So you don't let surfers be where the swimmers are, you know the boogie bars be where the

00:04:01   swimmers are because both of those things can bonk people in the head and that's dangerous.

00:04:06   Some of the Australians said that boogie boards are allowed, like if you just use them like

00:04:11   little kids in the surf, you know, in the little, just after the waves have crashed,

00:04:14   just little kids tooling around on them. On Long Island, it's no boogie boards anywhere,

00:04:17   period. They don't have this nuance of like, "Oh, it's okay if you're just in the edge

00:04:21   of the surf, but not bad when you're out farther."

00:04:23   I mean, Long Islanders are not known for their appreciation of nuance. They're very blunt

00:04:27   people.

00:04:28   Lifeguards would have to be making a judgment call of like, "Is that boogie board too far

00:04:32   out or too far in?" It would just be constant whistling and yelling at people to bring their

00:04:34   boogie boards in so it can make some sense. The other thing is the Australians were telling

00:04:39   us that the flag placement, that what they would do is they would, the lifeguards in

00:04:42   Australia would put the flags where the safest area to swim was. Even this follow-up says

00:04:46   the safe swimming area. And you know, like the lifeguards would understand the various

00:04:52   rip currents and everything and know like, oh today this is the safe place to swim and

00:04:56   today this is right now this is the safe place to swim. In my experience on Long Island,

00:05:00   both in my childhood and in my adult life

00:05:03   going on vacation, that's not,

00:05:05   mostly not how it works on Long Island beaches I go to.

00:05:09   The flags are basically placed like where,

00:05:10   you know, the entrance to the beach,

00:05:12   the flags are centered on the entrance to the beach.

00:05:15   They will close it and say you can't swim

00:05:17   if there's a rip tide, or you know,

00:05:19   or I'll advise against you depending on the conditions.

00:05:22   They, you know, so the lifeguards

00:05:23   aren't performing that function,

00:05:24   but it's not as if they will take the flags

00:05:26   and move 300 yards, move the flags 300 yards down the beach

00:05:29   because of the rip current.

00:05:30   No, they won't because the lifeguard chairs,

00:05:33   again, they could pick up and move them,

00:05:34   but in practice they don't

00:05:35   because there's the big pile of sand in front of them

00:05:37   that they would have to re-dig

00:05:38   and they don't wanna carry the things.

00:05:40   It's different on different beaches.

00:05:41   Like some beaches have multiple fields

00:05:44   that have their own sour parking lots

00:05:45   and their own sets of chairs.

00:05:46   And I think that's probably different,

00:05:48   but for the smaller South Shore beaches that I'm going to

00:05:51   on the East end of Long Island, they don't move the flags.

00:05:54   They just close and keep it open.

00:05:57   I'm not sure the way it is on where you are,

00:05:59   Mark, or do they ever move the flags,

00:06:01   or do they just, the flags are just fixed,

00:06:02   and it's yes, no, you can go in the water?

00:06:04   - They move the flags daily,

00:06:07   but they always are the same center point.

00:06:09   So the width of the space between the flags

00:06:12   changes with conditions.

00:06:13   So if it's a green flag day where the water is calm,

00:06:17   they'll have them pretty far spaced out.

00:06:19   If it's a yellow or red flag day,

00:06:21   they'll move them, they'll scoot them in

00:06:22   and make a narrower area.

00:06:24   So I think it's less about where in particular

00:06:27   the riptide might be, if they can tell that somehow, and more about just how wide of an

00:06:32   area do we want to be covering. And that's based on conditions.

00:06:35   It's based on staffing as well. So there's usually multiple lifeguard stands, but sometimes they

00:06:40   don't have the staff for all of them, so the ones that aren't occupied will be pushed over or just

00:06:44   unoccupied, and they will narrow the flags based on staffing, because if they don't have enough

00:06:48   lifeguards to populate all the little lifeguard chairs, they can't watch those parts, and so they

00:06:52   will definitely move the flags in and out like that, but they'll never do like, "Oh, there's

00:06:56   is the rip current over here.

00:06:57   We're gonna go half a mile down the beach

00:06:59   where there's no rip current.

00:06:59   I've never seen that done,

00:07:01   at least on the smaller beaches that I'm going to.

00:07:03   So there you go.

00:07:04   All you want to know about beaches and boogie boards

00:07:07   and rip currents and flags.

00:07:09   - So the follow-up I've been waiting for is,

00:07:12   have you tried channels and is this the moment

00:07:14   in which you tell me how right I am?

00:07:16   - Well, so I listened back to last week's episode

00:07:20   and it's still not entirely clear to me what your pitch is.

00:07:23   So could you just briefly re-summarize

00:07:26   what your pitch to me is on this topic?

00:07:29   - I think if you're looking to get rid of your TiVo,

00:07:33   which I know you're actually not,

00:07:34   but in this hypothetical world,

00:07:35   which I know is your favorite thing,

00:07:37   if you're looking to get rid of the TiVo,

00:07:38   I would argue that channels is a,

00:07:40   maybe not, I was gonna say better,

00:07:42   that's probably a bit dramatic or a bit over the top

00:07:44   given how much I know you're obsessed with your TiVo,

00:07:46   but it is quote unquote a better TiVo than TiVo

00:07:50   insofar as you can have, it can have effectively

00:07:53   infinite storage, 'cause you can just have it store things

00:07:55   onto your Synology.

00:07:56   It's very responsive because it's running on a, you know,

00:07:59   proper computer, hypothetically, unless you put it

00:08:01   on something really underpowered.

00:08:02   And you can watch your stuff anywhere.

00:08:05   Now maybe that's true of TiVo, I'm not sure,

00:08:06   but certainly it's true of channels.

00:08:08   So you can be somewhere else and you can watch live TV,

00:08:10   you can watch your recordings, whatever you wanna do.

00:08:13   And what's nice about channels is it's really,

00:08:16   you are better set up for channels even than I am

00:08:18   because I don't have a cable card in the house.

00:08:20   You do connect it to your TiVo,

00:08:22   and I know that it would be a big ask

00:08:23   to take your beloved TiVo and make it,

00:08:25   and neuter it for a little while,

00:08:27   but it is possible for you to just get a new box,

00:08:30   which is still being produced,

00:08:32   whether or not it's because they found chips, who knows?

00:08:34   But there are boxes still being made,

00:08:36   or at least still available for sale.

00:08:38   And you could buy one of those $150 boxes,

00:08:40   you could stick it on your network,

00:08:41   put your cable card in it, connect it to coax,

00:08:44   and you can have what is arguably

00:08:46   the best possible setup for channels,

00:08:48   which is to say you're pulling in almost every Fios TV channel that you have access to.

00:08:53   I think some of them are DRM encumbered and channels can't get to them, but almost all

00:08:56   of them are not.

00:08:57   So you can pull in all of your Fios TV and you can pull in, I think you can pull in Hulu.

00:09:02   I know you can pull in TV Everywhere, which among other things, YouTube TV supports.

00:09:06   Fios supports it as well.

00:09:08   And you can get all these things and you can aggregate them all into one spot.

00:09:11   Plus if you want to, if you have a robust TV library, you can do fun things like make

00:09:14   a 24/7 Letterkenny channel or a 24/7 Studio Ghibli channel or whatever the case you might

00:09:21   want.

00:09:22   So one way...

00:09:23   >> Ghibli!

00:09:24   >> Sorry, I've never seen any of them, so what do I know?

00:09:26   So anyways...

00:09:27   >> I watched the first 15 minutes of all of them.

00:09:29   >> All right, Merlin.

00:09:30   >> You're both giving me ideas here, no spoilers.

00:09:32   >> I know, I know we are, I know we are.

00:09:35   So anyway, so I think it could fit your needs pretty well, and the only downside to it as

00:09:42   compared to TiVo, is that it, like TiVo, is largely reliant on a dead technology in order

00:09:49   to work insofar as it relies on cable card.

00:09:51   Now we could get into an argument whether or not the cable card box, the HD HomeRun

00:09:55   thing, was it HD HomeRun Prime?

00:09:58   We can make an argument or get into an argument whether or not the HD HomeRun has any shelf

00:10:01   life or longevity, but we can all agree that cable card does not.

00:10:06   So there will come a time that cable card is just not supported, but that'll kill your

00:10:09   TiVo just as much as it'll kill channels.

00:10:11   So I just think it's one of those things where I feel like it's really something I would

00:10:16   like you to try, especially because the guide and the user interface is really, really well

00:10:19   done.

00:10:20   And what's nice about Channels is it does pretty well in ways that Swift aims to, but

00:10:24   does not, with progressive disclosure.

00:10:26   So it can be fairly straightforward.

00:10:28   It's still fiddly, you know, for sure.

00:10:29   It's a lot more fiddly than a TiVo.

00:10:31   But at first glance, it can be fairly straightforward.

00:10:34   And then as you wish, you can dig deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper, and just tweak

00:10:39   it till your heart's content.

00:10:40   Now you may not have interest in that, which is totally fine, but that's something you could do.

00:10:43   So I don't know, it feels like something I want you to try, and if you told me,

00:10:47   "Hey, I gave it an honest shake, it's not for me," that's fine.

00:10:50   Like Marco did with the Wrangler. Like, that's fine.

00:10:52   But I feel like it's something you should at least give it a shot.

00:10:55   - I think you were much more emphatic last week that you needed me to get rid of my TiVo's because they were bad.

00:11:01   It's not just hypothetical if you were getting rid of your TiVo's,

00:11:03   it was more like you have to get rid of your TiVo's for your bad. Because they're bad.

00:11:07   - Well, because they're dead! They're dead technology walking.

00:11:10   They are absolutely dead technology walking.

00:11:11   I can't believe anything works in those TiVo's.

00:11:14   - But are they more dead than the HD Homerun Prime

00:11:18   that they just found new chips for?

00:11:19   (laughing)

00:11:20   - And that's a fair question.

00:11:22   And I feel like they are--

00:11:23   - And that's what I kept saying last week,

00:11:24   that you can buy a brand new TiVo right now

00:11:27   if they sell multiple models.

00:11:29   - I personally think that they are more dead

00:11:32   because I just don't see how TiVo's got any,

00:11:35   has any longevity, I really don't.

00:11:37   Whereas you will always find nerds

00:11:39   that are interested in doing nerdy things,

00:11:41   which I guess maybe that applies to TiVo too,

00:11:42   now that I say that out loud.

00:11:43   But I don't know, I personally think that it is silly

00:11:46   for you to continue to harp on TiVo

00:11:48   as the one true savior of television,

00:11:51   when I think there are other options that may work better.

00:11:54   But I'll be the first to tell you there are some caveats.

00:11:55   So as an example, one of the caveats to channels

00:11:58   is that TV Everywhere, which is what channels use

00:12:00   to kind of, I don't know if scrape is the right word,

00:12:03   record, I guess, but to get access

00:12:05   to traditional terrestrial television,

00:12:08   that is limited at 720p and that's not channels as well.

00:12:11   - No, it's not.

00:12:13   - Oh, is it not?

00:12:14   I thought it was.

00:12:15   - It is not.

00:12:16   It's not limited to 720p.

00:12:16   All right, so let me tell you,

00:12:18   well, let me start by saying

00:12:20   that your pitch remains unconvincing

00:12:22   because I already own Devos

00:12:24   and I'm not looking to get rid of them.

00:12:25   - Well, that's fair, that's fair.

00:12:27   - But I think you're also losing sight of,

00:12:28   and I realize I didn't,

00:12:30   you'd have to rewind two episodes to figure this out.

00:12:32   What is my goal in messing with stuff?

00:12:34   Why am I even looking to this?

00:12:35   Do you remember the origin

00:12:36   of like why I'm looking at this stuff at all,

00:12:39   it's because I got a fancy new TV.

00:12:41   My fancy new TV is 4K and HDR.

00:12:43   That's why I started down the road of saying,

00:12:45   let me reconsider all the things that are giving input

00:12:47   to my television to make sure I'm getting

00:12:49   the highest quality because now my television

00:12:51   can display better, so now when I just see

00:12:54   standard definition 1080, which used to be the limit

00:12:56   of my previous television, now I feel like,

00:12:58   oh, if I can get that content in a better format

00:13:02   in 4K and HDR and both, that would be good, right?

00:13:06   and television is a big source of a lot of the stuff that I get.

00:13:08   So that's why I was looking into, for example, YouTube TV,

00:13:10   because people had told me before I got my new television

00:13:12   that, hey, YouTube TV has some regular channels that

00:13:17   are in 4K or HDR or both.

00:13:18   So check that out.

00:13:19   And that's why I looked into that, and the guide was crappy,

00:13:21   and I was like, oh, this is bad.

00:13:22   And that's kind of how we got into channels,

00:13:24   because the people said, oh, well, yeah,

00:13:26   the YouTube TV interface and apps aren't great.

00:13:29   But if you use channels, you can use the channels UI

00:13:32   to get a YouTube TV.

00:13:34   and as you described through the TV Everywhere interface.

00:13:36   So that's why I started going into channels, right?

00:13:38   But everything you just said about channels,

00:13:41   is it's like what I said last week.

00:13:43   It's like TiVo, but instead of it being an all-in-one box,

00:13:45   it's distributed into pieces.

00:13:48   And that's more fiddly, but it's also more flexible,

00:13:50   because then you can decide, for this piece,

00:13:52   I'm gonna use this, for that piece, I'm gonna use that.

00:13:54   It's componentized, right?

00:13:56   And to answer your question about watching TiVo stuff

00:13:59   elsewhere, yes you can, you can watch TiVo stuff,

00:14:01   and they've had that feature for years, right?

00:14:03   So channels is really just a different TiVo

00:14:07   with a different set of trade-offs.

00:14:09   It doesn't, unfortunately, help me at all

00:14:12   with my question of how do I get better content

00:14:15   into my television?

00:14:16   Because although TV Everywhere isn't limited to 720,

00:14:20   you're still limited by what kind of content

00:14:23   will be on TV Everywhere for your particular channel.

00:14:26   So let me tell you what I've done in this regard

00:14:28   since last week.

00:14:29   So first off, anonymous listener Ben, no last name,

00:14:34   or listener Ben, last name with help,

00:14:35   sent me an HD Home Run Prime.

00:14:38   - Oh man, good for Ben.

00:14:40   - Great, and that arrived pretty quickly.

00:14:42   And by the way, speaking of dead technologies

00:14:45   and TiVo feeling old or whatever,

00:14:47   the HD Home Run Prime as a product

00:14:49   is two years older than my oldest TiVo.

00:14:52   (laughing)

00:14:54   And yes, they are still making and selling them

00:14:56   because they found chips,

00:14:57   but they canceled the six tuner one.

00:14:58   There was supposed to be a 6 tuner HD Homerun Prime,

00:15:00   HD Homerun Prime 6, and they canceled that project

00:15:03   back in like 2020 or whenever the FCC said,

00:15:05   yeah, cable card's not gonna be a thing anymore.

00:15:08   So this whole product line seemed super dead

00:15:12   because they had planned to make a 6 tuner one,

00:15:13   which I would probably buy, by the way.

00:15:16   They just canceled that whole thing.

00:15:18   They say they are going to make another cable card product,

00:15:20   but I can't find anything concrete on that.

00:15:22   So, and they had stopped making HD Homerun Prime

00:15:25   for a long time, but then they found your chips

00:15:26   and are making them again.

00:15:27   But anyway, this is not relevant to me because I got one.

00:15:30   Listener sent it to me, thank you very much listener Ben,

00:15:32   very nice of you, right?

00:15:34   So I took a cable card out of one of my lesser TiVos

00:15:38   and shoved it into the HDHomer on Prime and hooked it up.

00:15:43   So here's where I learned the limits of this stuff

00:15:46   based on what I'm trying to do.

00:15:48   And again, to reiterate, what I'm trying to do

00:15:50   is to get better quality versions

00:15:52   of the television shows that I pay for, right?

00:15:56   So, Fios is good, Fios especially in Massachusetts is good

00:16:00   in that they don't flip whatever bit that you flip

00:16:03   to make it so like the channels are DRM protected.

00:16:06   They don't flip that anywhere except on the channels

00:16:08   that force them to do it.

00:16:09   So I think it's only like HBO or maybe one or two other ones

00:16:13   that force Fios to say you have to put on the DRM bit.

00:16:18   When you put that bit on, it means that channels

00:16:21   can't get those channels through the HD Home Run Prime.

00:16:24   They're just like, it doesn't even see them.

00:16:26   My TiVo can get them, so another notch in the column for TiVo.

00:16:29   - No, that's totally fair, totally fair.

00:16:31   - But it's just like one channel who cares,

00:16:32   and I have HBO screen, so that would not stop me,

00:16:34   but just FYI, lots of other cable providers

00:16:36   aren't as nice as Verizon.

00:16:38   They like check in on every single channel,

00:16:40   and then it makes the thing useless, which is really crappy.

00:16:42   But then the next limitation is

00:16:45   when Fios sends its television channels to my house,

00:16:48   regardless, forget about the equipment that's in my house,

00:16:50   just as they come into my house,

00:16:52   even if you have like the Fios first-party equipment,

00:16:54   if you have a cable card, if you have any other stuff,

00:16:57   almost all the channels are not 4K.

00:16:59   Fios in Massachusetts has like four or five 4K channels,

00:17:03   and they're just like holding bin channels,

00:17:06   where there's nothing on them

00:17:08   except when there's special events.

00:17:09   So for example, apparently the Olympics,

00:17:11   the past whatever, one or two times,

00:17:13   they would put 4K versions of the Olympics

00:17:16   into one or two of those channels.

00:17:19   There's one for like Red Sox games

00:17:21   or other sports events, special events,

00:17:23   But most of the day if you go to those channels, there's nothing on them except for a standby

00:17:26   or off-air or just a static graphic.

00:17:30   That's the extent of 4K content as traditional television channels coming into your house

00:17:36   from Fios.

00:17:38   There is apparently a Fios TV streaming thing that you can do where there's a Fios TV app

00:17:43   for Apple TV and it's just like, "We'll use the internet to get you the television that

00:17:47   you pay for."

00:17:49   But cable companies or whatever typically being annoying.

00:17:52   I can't even use that app unless I have in my home

00:17:55   some of their first party cable box things

00:17:58   and also use their stupid first party router thing.

00:18:01   So I'm never doing that because I don't allow

00:18:03   any cable company equipment in my house

00:18:05   if I can help it except for the cable cards, right?

00:18:08   Now the cable cards, the other channels that are not 4K,

00:18:11   some of them are 1080.

00:18:12   Most of them are not, but some of them are.

00:18:13   I was going through the channels

00:18:15   and using the little info thing on channels to see

00:18:17   and you will find 1080 ones.

00:18:19   But that's like, that's exactly the same

00:18:21   that is on my TiVo, if I go through the thing,

00:18:23   channels is more flexible in this manner.

00:18:26   TiVo I think will just run at whatever resolution

00:18:31   that you set it to and then it just upscales everything.

00:18:34   Channels you can set it to like match content,

00:18:37   which is kind of annoying 'cause then it like

00:18:38   blacks out the TV when it goes between channels,

00:18:40   but you can go between the 1080 channel and the 720 channel

00:18:42   and it'll like change modes and everything.

00:18:46   So anyway, there are 1080 channels, there are 720 channels,

00:18:50   but you're not getting any increase in quality.

00:18:52   All you're doing with channels is the same thing

00:18:55   you could do on TiVo minus the VRM predicted channels,

00:18:58   but with the addition of the ability to match content,

00:19:01   which I don't think you would ever do,

00:19:02   especially on my setup.

00:19:03   The delay of like, you know, switching modes

00:19:05   from like 720 to 1080 is not worth it.

00:19:07   It's better to just keep it in, especially for live TV.

00:19:10   Maybe for recorded things, it's fine.

00:19:12   And channels lets you change that on like a per source basis

00:19:14   which is convenient.

00:19:16   In terms of the channel setup,

00:19:19   I'm running it on my wife's computer,

00:19:20   which she strongly objected to.

00:19:22   In fact, just before we started recording,

00:19:23   she told me to reiterate to you in particular, Casey,

00:19:26   that she does not want this running on her computer.

00:19:28   - On account of what? - The only reason I was

00:19:29   allowed to do it is because it's for the show,

00:19:32   I told her it was temporary.

00:19:34   - Wait, but is Plex still running on that computer?

00:19:36   - It is, but as I said on the last show,

00:19:39   there's no contradiction in this.

00:19:40   It is exactly the explanation I gave,

00:19:42   which is nobody cares about Plex.

00:19:43   If Plex is down, nobody cares.

00:19:44   I am the only person who uses it,

00:19:46   and I can manage dealing with the thing

00:19:48   being up or down. It is not an essential part.

00:19:51   That's a different issue though. What is her gripe with channels?

00:19:54   She doesn't want things running on her computer that affect her television is

00:19:57   exactly what I said last week. She just like, it doesn't, you know,

00:19:59   my ideal matches her ideal,

00:20:01   which is things related to watching television should have no connection to the

00:20:05   computers that are in her office.

00:20:06   They can have connection to things that are in the basement that no one ever

00:20:10   touches, but not to the stuff that's in their office.

00:20:12   I mean, if that's the way she feels, who am I to tell her that she's wrong,

00:20:16   but she's wrong.

00:20:17   Like, I don't understand what difference it makes

00:20:20   where within the house this mythical device

00:20:23   is connected to the network.

00:20:24   - Because she wants the flexibility to be able

00:20:25   to restart her computer or do anything with it,

00:20:28   put it to sleep or shut it down or whatever

00:20:29   without worrying that she's messing up something

00:20:31   really to tell.

00:20:32   In particular, doing things like, you know,

00:20:34   if you're using this DVR, maybe it's recording shows

00:20:36   while you sleep, you know, like it's just something,

00:20:39   it's not, she doesn't want that entanglement.

00:20:41   And I don't blame her.

00:20:42   I don't want that entanglement either.

00:20:43   So even if it wasn't her opinion,

00:20:44   it would also be my opinion.

00:20:45   So we are unified as a family in this

00:20:47   and there is no contradiction in Plex running on it.

00:20:49   Because like I said,

00:20:50   if you really are desperate to run Plex,

00:20:51   it's also on the Synology

00:20:52   and that's always up because it's in the basement.

00:20:55   - I mean, I guess again, I can't, as much as I joke,

00:20:58   I can't tell you that either of you are wrong,

00:21:00   but that whole line of reasoning does not compute to me.

00:21:03   Because-- - Either way,

00:21:04   like the point is channels can run almost anywhere.

00:21:06   Like it's very flexible.

00:21:07   Like the whole point of this being flexible

00:21:08   is I could run it on my Synology,

00:21:10   I could buy a little computer to run it.

00:21:11   If I was serious about the setup,

00:21:12   I would in fact get another little computer to run.

00:21:14   And it's not difficult, this is not a dig against channels.

00:21:17   Channels is very flexible in this regard.

00:21:18   In fact, that's the reason you'd want to use channels

00:21:20   because of its flexibility.

00:21:21   So when I, but anyway, I'm just doing this temporarily.

00:21:24   Same thing with the cable card.

00:21:26   That's going back into the TiVo.

00:21:28   I got her permission to take it out of her TiVo.

00:21:30   And when I took it out, like what I was trying to do

00:21:33   is like, okay, I need to exercise it to get it to do things.

00:21:37   So what I did was I looked at her season pass list

00:21:39   on her TiVo that I was taking it out of,

00:21:41   and I said, let me try to reproduce

00:21:42   these season passes in channels.

00:21:44   just A, to build up shows, and B, just to see

00:21:46   what the experience is like.

00:21:47   Channels copies a lot of the TiVo interface

00:21:50   in terms of the terminology and the way things are,

00:21:53   mostly just terminology.

00:21:54   The way things are arranged is a little bit different.

00:21:57   So I went and tried to add the season passes

00:22:00   and found the first limitation of channels

00:22:05   as compared to TiVo if you're just used to

00:22:08   the TiVo way of doing things, which is,

00:22:09   on TiVo, if you set up a season pass

00:22:12   and you go like search for it or whatever,

00:22:14   you can find the show even if it's not currently airing.

00:22:18   One example is Survivor.

00:22:19   Survivor comes in seasons and like each season

00:22:21   is basically treated as an independent show

00:22:23   as like Survivor colon some subtitle or whatever.

00:22:26   Even though Survivor's not on right now,

00:22:28   you can find it and set up a season pass for it.

00:22:30   Same thing for, you know, so the first thing I did

00:22:32   was one of her shows was something she watches on,

00:22:35   I forget what channel this is, anyway,

00:22:36   I did a search for it and it doesn't come up in channels

00:22:39   because it's not currently airing at all.

00:22:41   So I can't add the season pass.

00:22:42   And just to confirm, it's like, well, maybe that's not fair.

00:22:44   Maybe it's not visible on TiVo either.

00:22:46   I did a search on TiVo, like on my other TiVo,

00:22:48   the downstairs one, where that show doesn't have

00:22:49   a season pass, and TiVo does find it.

00:22:51   So TiVo's depth of understanding which shows

00:22:54   may be airing in the future is vastly better than channels.

00:22:57   I think it's mostly because channels

00:22:58   get this guide info from like--

00:23:00   - You beat me to it.

00:23:01   - Yeah, 14 days worth of guide info from the cable thing.

00:23:04   You can tell me, Casey, is there some other way

00:23:06   to tell channels, hey, get additional info

00:23:10   about television shows from his other source,

00:23:12   so you know about shows that might be airing in six months?

00:23:14   - There is.

00:23:15   Now, I am talking way outside my comfort zone,

00:23:18   so I might be telling you some lies by accident,

00:23:21   but my limited understanding is you absolutely can

00:23:25   tell it to go and get more guide data.

00:23:29   And additionally, I believe that there are some

00:23:32   like guide data providers that explicitly give you

00:23:38   considerably more guide data. As an example, a friend of mine, Justin Williams, is really into professional wrestling that, you know,

00:23:44   hey, you like what you like.

00:23:45   But I guess that he subscribes, I believe he subscribes to a particular service that gives,

00:23:51   what is it, EPG or something like that? I forget the acronym, but it's something like that, that gives guide data that is hyper accurate for

00:23:57   professional wrestling shows, because, you know, what little I know professional wrestling is, you have different fights or bouts or what have you. And so,

00:24:04   you know, maybe the regular guide data says,

00:24:08   WWE Raw and that's all it says whereas this you know phantom whatever thing that he subscribes to and pays money for says WWE Raw

00:24:15   It's you know, The Rock versus so-and-so and this versus that and this versus that and you know featuring the deathmatch of doom or whatever

00:24:22   They do in professional wrestling and so I think there is there is a way not only to pay for that data

00:24:28   But I'm 99% sure he is doing he's using channels to suck in that data as well off the top of my head

00:24:34   I'm not specifically sure where to do that, but I am pretty sure that it is possible

00:24:40   That's another example of things that TiVo rolls in for the fee that you pay for TiVo and you could pay TiVo monthly

00:24:46   I think annually but also what I tend to do is

00:24:48   Such a long time you buy the lifetime thing where you just pay one amount and that's it

00:24:52   Forever and TiVo of course gives you wherever TiVo gets its guide data from probably from one of these services or something

00:24:58   That's all bundled with the service. Another thing that I noticed about TiVo versus channels

00:25:04   I mean, well, it depends on what mode you're doing things.

00:25:07   So I did try the TV Everywhere without the cable card first,

00:25:09   because before I had this cable card, I was using channels.

00:25:12   Even last week, I was using channels by itself.

00:25:14   And TV Everywhere, it's a web API.

00:25:16   It's not really web scraping.

00:25:17   It's an officially supported API.

00:25:19   And if your services support it, you can view the stuff with it.

00:25:22   And as far as I can tell, it's the same quality

00:25:24   as I'm getting with the cable card.

00:25:26   So I compared, like, let me look at Discovery on TV Everywhere.

00:25:28   Let me look at Discovery through my HD Homer on Prime, right?

00:25:32   I think it's exactly the same, at least in my case.

00:25:34   I think it varies by channel and maybe varies by service

00:25:37   that you're sucking this stuff from, but it may be lesser

00:25:40   quality, but in my case, it didn't look like it was.

00:25:42   It was 1080 in both places, and I

00:25:44   don't think there's 4K available in any of these things anyway.

00:25:48   So that's reasonable.

00:25:51   But when you're using TV Everywhere,

00:25:53   because it's a web thing, it starts slower.

00:25:58   It starts slower than tuning to something

00:26:00   on the tuner, one of the three tuners that's

00:26:02   in the HD Homer and Prime.

00:26:04   Part of that is buffering.

00:26:05   You can set a configurable buffer size

00:26:07   of how much you want to buffer,

00:26:08   but like, and I played with that a little bit,

00:26:10   but you're going to wait a little bit longer

00:26:12   when quote unquote changing channels

00:26:14   with the TV everywhere.

00:26:15   You might see a spinner before it spools up

00:26:17   and there might be one or two hitches.

00:26:19   Hitches like that never happened with TiVo.

00:26:22   Never, like it's just like cable.

00:26:24   That's one of the advantages of TiVo

00:26:26   and the HD Homer and Prime also no hitches

00:26:28   because it's just, it's like a tuner.

00:26:29   Like the video is just there and ready.

00:26:32   as instantly as you can switch between tuners,

00:26:36   or switch one tuner to a different channel.

00:26:38   So that is a big advantage of cable card

00:26:40   over the TV everywhere.

00:26:42   And again, I feel like I'm in an ideal scenario.

00:26:44   Everything is on gigabit ethernet.

00:26:45   I have symmetric gigabit up and down.

00:26:48   I don't think there's anything more I could do.

00:26:49   It's just the nature of the beast.

00:26:51   The coaxial cable that's sending the quote unquote

00:26:54   television to my house is just blasting everything

00:26:57   all the time.

00:26:58   It is a shame that there's only three tuners.

00:27:00   I did exhaust the three tuners pretty quickly with recording shows and then when the three

00:27:05   tuners are used up you can't even go watch another show because it says all tuners are

00:27:08   in use.

00:27:09   So if you want to watch another show you have to stop one of the recordings and go to it.

00:27:13   So again I think for my purposes three is probably a little low, six is probably overkill

00:27:17   but six is certainly nice and I have two TiVos with six tuners each so I can do 12 at once.

00:27:23   We've never run out of tuners on the TiVos.

00:27:25   It is possible to pretty easily run out of them on three which is why I wish there was

00:27:28   There was an HD Home Run Prime 6, but they canceled that.

00:27:30   But again, they say they're, the Silicon Dust says

00:27:32   they are going to make another cable card product,

00:27:34   and I wonder what that will be.

00:27:36   - Well, but you could, one of the things

00:27:37   to speak about flexibility, as you had said earlier,

00:27:40   one of the things you could do is you could get

00:27:42   a second HD Home Run box and put a second cable card in it,

00:27:46   and now you have six tuners.

00:27:47   You're not gonna do that because A, you're giving up on it,

00:27:49   and B, I'm gonna make you ship me that one

00:27:51   that Ben shipped to you, but that's neither here nor there.

00:27:54   But it is something that you could--

00:27:56   - I'm not shipping it to you.

00:27:57   Like I might still use it, but here's the problem.

00:28:00   I mean, that's the problem with cable card, right?

00:28:02   If you get another one, chances are good,

00:28:05   and it's definitely true in the case of Verizon Fios,

00:28:08   that you will have to pay per month per cable card.

00:28:11   I do.

00:28:12   Each cable card I have in my house,

00:28:13   they make you pay for.

00:28:14   'Cause I'm not paying them for any of their cable box crap

00:28:17   'cause they don't have any of that.

00:28:18   I don't use their router or use any of that.

00:28:19   But for each cable card, it's like five bucks a month

00:28:21   or something like that.

00:28:22   So I'd have to pay an additional five months a month

00:28:24   just to get the cable card.

00:28:25   The hardware itself is cheap.

00:28:26   I think the HDHorn Prime, again, this is a product

00:28:29   introduced in 2011.

00:28:32   It's like 100 and something bucks.

00:28:33   - It's 150 bucks, I believe.

00:28:34   - Yeah, if you can find one new and use it,

00:28:37   probably even less than that.

00:28:38   But it's a very simple device.

00:28:39   To understand what this device is,

00:28:40   in fact, it's a little bit too simple.

00:28:42   It's a plastic box that you plug a coaxial cable into,

00:28:45   a cable card into, ethernet and power.

00:28:47   And it doesn't do anything.

00:28:49   It doesn't decode any video.

00:28:51   It doesn't, like, it just accepts what's coming in

00:28:53   on the coax, uses the cable card to tune

00:28:56   to one of three possible channels,

00:28:58   it supports three tuners,

00:28:59   and makes that content available through ethernet.

00:29:02   And then, you know, it has power, I think.

00:29:04   And it's so light, and the coaxial cables are so thick,

00:29:07   it's hard to make it lay on a flat surface

00:29:11   'cause it always tilts up, 'cause the cables,

00:29:13   that was another problem, I had to go buy a cable splitter.

00:29:15   When's the last time anyone's done that?

00:29:16   I had to buy a two-way cable splitter,

00:29:18   because I realized when I was gonna hook it up,

00:29:20   The back of my television area just has one coax

00:29:24   that goes to the TiVo.

00:29:25   I don't have another one, so I had to buy a splitter

00:29:27   and two very short cables to split that

00:29:29   into one going to my TiVo and one going to the HDO.

00:29:32   It is small box, but it doesn't really lay flat.

00:29:36   And dealing with cable cards,

00:29:37   if you've never dealt with them before, is a pain.

00:29:39   Not because of anything having to do with HDO and Prime,

00:29:41   but just having to do with cable cards being a pain.

00:29:42   Like I don't endorse cable cards,

00:29:44   but it'll be sad when they go away,

00:29:46   because this same cable card works with a six tuner TiVo.

00:29:49   I don't know what the limit is,

00:29:50   but the number of tuners is not in the card.

00:29:52   It's a multi-stream card.

00:29:53   It's like inherent in the box itself.

00:29:55   So that's kind of a shame.

00:29:56   So yeah, like using the interface,

00:30:01   my main complaint is that it's less information dense

00:30:03   than TiVo.

00:30:04   TiVo is an older interface where it's, you know,

00:30:06   it's kind of like Gmail where you can go to the compact

00:30:07   view, which is the view I use where you just have like

00:30:09   line items, whereas channels is more modern.

00:30:12   It looks more like Plex.

00:30:12   Like they want to show you a large poster images

00:30:16   of the things that you're watching, right?

00:30:18   But when you record the amount of content I do,

00:30:21   having the list of things that you've recorded

00:30:24   be more information dense and just like a list view

00:30:26   instead of an icon view really helps.

00:30:28   And there is a list view in channels,

00:30:29   but even the list view is tall

00:30:31   because they show the thumbnail images

00:30:32   and a bunch of other stuff about it.

00:30:33   There's other things where it's like trickier

00:30:35   to get it to the feature that you want

00:30:37   from the screen that you're on,

00:30:38   so you have to go back or whatever,

00:30:39   but mostly it's just what you're used to.

00:30:41   I'm definitely used to TiVo,

00:30:43   and I have both TiVo interfaces, both the old one,

00:30:46   which in my opinion was better, but of course looks old,

00:30:48   and the new one, which is worse but looks more modern.

00:30:52   Both of those interfaces, I think, are a little bit better,

00:30:55   especially in the recording list than Channels.

00:30:56   Channels has an enhanced library view

00:30:58   that lets you sort things if you have lots of content,

00:31:00   but that's more for like if you point it

00:31:04   to your Plex library, which is the thing

00:31:05   that you can do as well.

00:31:06   You can just say, hey, by the way, Channels,

00:31:08   this is the advantage of Channels.

00:31:09   Not only do I have an HTML1 Prime,

00:31:11   but also you can get these channels in my over the air thing

00:31:13   and also I have a bunch of crap in my,

00:31:16   you know, Synology over here,

00:31:17   and it will just merge it into one giant thing

00:31:19   and just eat it all up, right?

00:31:20   And if you have that much content,

00:31:22   things like the enhanced library view

00:31:23   and virtual channels and everything

00:31:24   help you organize things.

00:31:25   But like I said in the beginning,

00:31:27   my goal is to get better quality television content,

00:31:31   and channels is not helping with that

00:31:33   because Fios only gives me a certain quality.

00:31:34   So it seems like the result of all my experimentation here

00:31:37   is almost nobody gives you any of those channels

00:31:42   in better than 1080 content.

00:31:44   My quote-unquote cable provider does not,

00:31:47   like except for those few 4K channels.

00:31:50   YouTube TV is the only thing that does,

00:31:52   and even YouTube TV does not have a lot of 4K channels.

00:31:56   I found one or two of them and they were like HGTV

00:31:59   or Discovery or something,

00:32:00   like stuff that I mostly don't watch.

00:32:02   I was just looking at them to see the 4K content,

00:32:04   but I would have to go through every single channel

00:32:06   on YouTube TV and see like what fraction of a percent

00:32:10   actually provide 4K content.

00:32:12   And I think if I did TV Everywhere to YouTube TV,

00:32:15   if I had subscribed to it, it would not be 4K.

00:32:19   Now, I say I think because I foolishly used up

00:32:22   my free trial of YouTube TV last time when I tried it,

00:32:26   'cause it said, oh, sign up for a free trial.

00:32:28   And I did, and I played with it,

00:32:29   and I didn't like the interface and whatever

00:32:31   I talked about on the show, and I canceled the free trial,

00:32:32   'cause it's really expensive.

00:32:33   It was like $84, 'cause it's like 60 bucks

00:32:36   plus 11 bucks for the 4K thing or whatever.

00:32:39   It would have been 80-something dollars

00:32:41   if I had paid for even just one month of it.

00:32:43   And that's too much for an experiment,

00:32:45   so I canceled it, right?

00:32:46   But now it won't let me, or apparently anyone

00:32:49   in my household, sign up for the free trial again.

00:32:51   I can do the free for 20 minutes thing,

00:32:54   like you can always do the free for 20 minutes thing

00:32:55   if you go into the web UI, it says try it free

00:32:57   for 20 minutes, but that just lets you use the web UI.

00:32:59   To use it with channels, you have to have a login that works

00:33:02   and by the way, no limitation of channels,

00:33:04   if you have two factor, you can't use TV everywhere

00:33:07   with YouTube TV, so the suggestion is to make

00:33:10   family group and then make a new account in the family group that doesn't have two factor

00:33:13   turned down and use that to authenticate them.

00:33:14   But anyway, I couldn't do any of that because I just can't sign up for YouTube TV unless

00:33:19   I pay 80 something bucks.

00:33:20   Or I can't sign up for YouTube TV with 4k unless I pay 80 something bucks and I wasn't

00:33:24   willing to do that.

00:33:25   But from everything that I've heard, even though YouTube TV does have channels in 4k,

00:33:29   it doesn't have a lot of those channels and channels can't get those channels in 4k through

00:33:37   the TV ever interface due to the limitations of what is vended by YouTube TV.

00:33:42   So I still haven't hooked up to my TV.

00:33:44   I still did a couple season passes with it.

00:33:46   The reason I still have hooked up is because one of the advantages that channels has over

00:33:51   TiVo is it has commercial auto skip.

00:33:55   TiVo still makes you hit a button, a single button granted, but a button to skip over

00:33:59   all the channels.

00:34:00   And I think TiVo has like, I don't know what they have doing this, they have something

00:34:03   server side on their end marking the beginning and the end of the channels.

00:34:07   But with channels, I should call it get channels

00:34:09   'cause that's what I don't like Googling.

00:34:10   I always have Google for get channels,

00:34:12   otherwise you don't find anything

00:34:13   'cause getchannels.com is a website.

00:34:14   Anyway, with channels, the service,

00:34:18   the TV, the commercial skipping happens

00:34:20   because they run a little command line thing

00:34:22   on your server to find the channels for you.

00:34:24   It's called commskip and I ran it from the command line

00:34:25   a few times to see what it's like.

00:34:27   - You keep conflating channels and commercials.

00:34:29   You keep saying, they had to skip the channels for you.

00:34:31   - Yeah, to skip the commercials, sorry, yes.

00:34:34   Commskip for skipping commercials.

00:34:36   And that's handy because you're not then dependent on,

00:34:40   you know, TiVo to find the commercials for you.

00:34:42   Now TiVo does a really good job of finding the commercials,

00:34:44   but if they didn't do a good job,

00:34:45   or if you're watching some really obscure thing

00:34:46   that they didn't mark the channels in,

00:34:48   or the commercials in, you're out of luck.

00:34:52   Whereas again, the flexibility of channels,

00:34:54   it just runs that command on everything.

00:34:57   And if it doesn't find the commercials for you,

00:34:59   you can tweak the parameters, tweak the any file

00:35:01   to find the commercials or whatever.

00:35:03   And then when you're watching,

00:35:04   you can configure it to auto skip the commercials for you

00:35:06   instead of having you hit a button.

00:35:07   You can also configure it to hit a button or whatever.

00:35:09   So anyway, I threw some season passes into channels

00:35:12   for some shows that I would normally watch on my TiVo.

00:35:15   And it is kind of annoying to have to remember

00:35:17   to skip the channels with the remote.

00:35:19   It's nicer to just sit there and have it skip over them.

00:35:21   So I'm gonna leave it connected for a while

00:35:23   and try that out.

00:35:24   I've already paid for one month of channels,

00:35:25   which is like eight bucks or something.

00:35:27   So it's not a big commitment.

00:35:29   You can get a savings if you pay for the annual thing

00:35:30   but I didn't.

00:35:31   So that's what I'm doing so far.

00:35:33   I'm gonna play with channels for as long as I can

00:35:38   until my wife demands that her cable card

00:35:41   goes back into her TiVo,

00:35:43   or demands that I get the server off of her device.

00:35:45   But my quest continues for superior quality content

00:35:51   for my television.

00:35:52   I'm assuming that what will happen

00:35:54   as all these cable card things slowly fade away

00:35:57   is that someday I will be able to stop paying

00:35:59   for cable television,

00:36:01   which may not lower my bill as much as you would think,

00:36:04   because I get one of those big packages

00:36:05   that does telephone, television, and my internet.

00:36:08   And I love my internet,

00:36:09   I'm never gonna stop paying for that.

00:36:11   But they really want you to buy

00:36:12   the other stuff from them as well.

00:36:15   So maybe someday it will no longer be worth it to me

00:36:19   to buy the big television package,

00:36:20   but it's gonna be a while I think,

00:36:21   because if I downgraded my TV service to the minimum

00:36:26   or discontinued it entirely,

00:36:29   and then individually paid for,

00:36:31   Showtime, AMC, HBO, like all that stuff

00:36:36   with their individual service plans,

00:36:39   I think it would still end up being more expensive

00:36:41   than the current bundle that I pay for

00:36:43   due to all of the bundling discounts, but we'll see.

00:36:45   But anyway, when that happens,

00:36:47   presumably the streaming services

00:36:49   will start sending 4K content to me.

00:36:51   And then in terms of DVR solutions, I don't know,

00:36:55   'cause channels reliant on that TV Everywhere thing,

00:36:57   that just seems like an API kind of like cable card

00:36:59   that these companies don't want to keep supporting

00:37:03   if they don't have to.

00:37:05   So I'm not sure what the future of DVRing stuff is

00:37:07   in the streaming only world.

00:37:10   If it's streaming, you don't need to DVR most of the time,

00:37:12   but I don't know, maybe for live content or local channels

00:37:16   that will, you know, anyway,

00:37:17   as always TV is a big giant mess,

00:37:19   but now I have one more potential tool in my arsenal

00:37:21   if and when my TiVo's every die.

00:37:23   Oh, and as part of this whole experience,

00:37:25   I was looking again, taking a harder look

00:37:27   at the current crop of TiVos.

00:37:31   And they're still-- my ancient TiVo still

00:37:35   holds more stuff in it.

00:37:36   And I kind of still like the fact

00:37:38   that it's running the old UI instead of the new one,

00:37:40   because I don't like the new UI as much.

00:37:43   I would like it if TiVo continued to survive.

00:37:45   And I would like it if they introduced a new TiVo device

00:37:47   that is better than the one I have.

00:37:49   But so far, if I was to buy the brand new one now,

00:37:51   it has one terabyte less storage,

00:37:53   which is annoying to expand.

00:37:55   You can expand it.

00:37:56   but it's annoying to expand internally

00:37:59   and externally it's big and clunky to expand.

00:38:02   And they use 2.5 inch drives now,

00:38:04   whereas my current one uses a 3.5 inch,

00:38:05   which sounds old and clunky to you,

00:38:07   but reliability wise the 3.5 inches are,

00:38:09   in my experience have been better than a 2.5.

00:38:11   I have a TiVo bolt with a 2.5,

00:38:13   the drive already died once,

00:38:15   I've never lost a 3.5 inch drive in any of my TiVos.

00:38:18   So I'm not sure what I'm gonna do there.

00:38:20   But anyway, it was a fun experiment.

00:38:21   The experiment is still running.

00:38:23   I will update you on how things go,

00:38:25   but it is tend to be slightly disappointed that I can't find that not only that I can't

00:38:30   find but basically it doesn't exist higher quality versions of most of the regular television

00:38:35   channels oh and I'll add that the 720 and 1080 ones are just always so massively compressed

00:38:40   and gross looking that's another reason people recommend a YouTube TV they said even if you

00:38:43   just looking at stuff in 720 or 1080 it's less compressed than it is on Fios because

00:38:48   in Fios they have to jam all the channels into these little slivers of their bandwidth

00:38:51   to your house.

00:38:52   - God, I am just so happy that I don't care

00:38:55   nearly as much as you do about TV

00:38:58   and the fidelity of the TV shows that you're watching on TV

00:39:01   because to me, this entire setup,

00:39:04   it sounds like, it's like, I wanna read a lot of articles.

00:39:07   So what I do is I have every magazine ever published

00:39:10   mailed to my house.

00:39:11   (laughing)

00:39:11   And then I have an array of six scanners.

00:39:14   Oh wait, you want me to go down to three scanners?

00:39:15   That's not gonna be enough.

00:39:16   I need six scanners running in parallel

00:39:17   to scan all these magazines coming into my house

00:39:19   all the time so I can digitize them

00:39:21   to put them on my computer so I can read them where I want to read them and how I want to

00:39:24   read them. But I can't just go to their websites because it's slightly different in some way.

00:39:28   Well, I mean, that's the nature of broadcast. But yeah, it is annoying. Like I said, if

00:39:32   we go all streaming, everything is available on demand and at higher quality whenever you

00:39:36   want, that's ideal. Very often, like when I watch HBO, we usually just go to the app

00:39:41   on Apple TV rather than the TiVo, which may have also recorded the show, just because

00:39:45   it's more convenient, faster, and often seems like it's in higher quality than what you

00:39:49   I don't know if it is, but it seems like it is, whether it's bitrate or if it's 4K or

00:39:55   HDR, I would prefer to use the app over that.

00:39:58   But not everything has an app.

00:40:00   And especially for local things, and this is not relevant to me, but especially for

00:40:04   things like local sports and stuff, we'll get there eventually.

00:40:07   But again, I think this is another potential advantage for channels if they can ever cross

00:40:12   this divide, which is it will take input from anywhere that it can get it in the best quality

00:40:17   that it can get it.

00:40:18   The question is the last part in the best quality they can get it.

00:40:22   Will channels and other third-party things be able to get content in good quality or

00:40:26   will we be forced to use this giant constellation of streaming apps to get stuff?

00:40:35   Christina Warren had a good tweet where she was quoting Jim Barksdale, I think, the guy

00:40:40   from Netscape or maybe Sun, saying that there are only two business models, bundling and

00:40:44   unbundling.

00:40:45   And we are currently in the process of going out of unbundling and back into bundling.

00:40:50   When we paid for cable and it was like, "Oh, I gotta pay for this dual-bundle of channels,

00:40:53   I don't care about ESPN but it adds $15 to my monthly fee or whatever," that was a giant

00:40:58   bundle.

00:40:59   It's like, "It's great if I could just pick and choose the services that I wanted."

00:41:00   I think we had that discussion on this very show many years ago.

00:41:03   Now I can just pay for what I want.

00:41:04   Well, I want HBO and I want Showtime.

00:41:05   That was the unbundling, right?

00:41:08   You'd pay for a streaming service.

00:41:09   You'd pay for HBO Now or HBO Go or whatever the hell one it is, and you'd pay for Showtime

00:41:14   anywhere or whatever the hell that thing is called and so you didn't have to pay

00:41:18   for the big package but the individual bundles ended up being really expensive

00:41:22   and now those individual bundle companies are consolidating so it was

00:41:25   like Warner Brothers, HBO, Discovery are combining into one app and you got

00:41:29   Paramount Plus or whatever so now we're in the it seems like we're going towards

00:41:32   unbundling where we're gonna end up with a series of larger packages and so

00:41:37   instead of paying for a bunch of individual quote-unquote channels you'll

00:41:40   play for Disney+, Apple TV+, Discovery/HBO+, Paramount+, and each one of those things will

00:41:47   have tons of content not equivalent to just one channel in it.

00:41:51   Will they ever go into a super bundle where Fios will sell you a package where you pay

00:41:56   a monthly fee to Verizon and then you get access to the HBO app, the Showtime app, the

00:42:01   Discovery app, or whatever?

00:42:02   Who knows?

00:42:03   But it seems like that's what phase we're in.

00:42:04   Eventually when we get over that hump, then we can use the power of the internet to get

00:42:09   4k versions of all this stuff and no one will ever need to "DVR" anything because everything

00:42:13   will be available on demand with a smattering of live streams maybe over the air in 4k.

00:42:18   I don't know.

00:42:19   That's another thing I didn't try.

00:42:20   I didn't try over the air.

00:42:21   I think over the air content does have more 4k stuff, but I really don't want to deal

00:42:24   with antennas and I mostly don't care about live sports or anything like that.

00:42:28   Dealing with antennas is not bad.

00:42:30   You just get a different HD home run box, which this would be irrelevant for you because

00:42:33   you've got the cable card one.

00:42:35   I'm saying if this was something you or a listener wants to explore, this is what I

00:42:39   I have done actually is I have a

00:42:41   HD home run box that is not with a cable card. It just has coax Ethernet and power

00:42:47   And by the way, I you couldn't hear me because I was muted

00:42:50   But I was laughing when you said it is impossible to get this thing to sit on sit flush because mine is

00:42:55   Also is tilted at like a 45 degree angle for the exact same reasons very lightweight box. Yes, but anyways

00:43:00   the over-the-air antennas are

00:43:04   Really inexpensive they're well under $100 unless you want to get one that's super fancy

00:43:08   And I don't remember how much I paid for this HD Home Run box, but I think it was also like $100 or less.

00:43:13   And then that would give you over-the-air stuff. Again, in your situation, John, I don't think that's useful at all because the...

00:43:18   Well, I think the over-the-air might be higher quality than those same channels that I'm getting through Fios, though.

00:43:23   Like, that is a possibility.

00:43:24   Ah, it's possible.

00:43:25   I mean, I don't actually care about those channels, so it's not really relevant to me because I just don't watch those channels.

00:43:30   But I think over-the-air might actually be higher quality than the sliver of the coax that they give those channels on Fios.

00:43:36   Yeah, that's fair.

00:43:37   Also, I would love it if you could try,

00:43:40   or maybe you mentioned this

00:43:41   and I just blacked out for a second,

00:43:42   but I would love it if you could try to record

00:43:45   any of the 4K Fios channels using the cable card

00:43:48   and the HTML.

00:43:49   - I would have tried, but there's nothing airing on them.

00:43:52   - No, I hear you, but is there even a 4K sized,

00:43:57   not right now screen, you know what I mean?

00:43:58   'Cause you could see if what channels saved.

00:44:01   - Yeah, I could try that.

00:44:02   I think one of the,

00:44:03   I think the one with the little Red Sox logo,

00:44:05   first of all, it had a day and a time

00:44:07   that the Red Sox game was gonna be on,

00:44:08   but I don't remember what day that was,

00:44:09   but I could wait for that.

00:44:10   And second, I think that might be 4K.

00:44:12   I'll double check on it to see what it produces.

00:44:15   - Yeah, I would love to know

00:44:16   if channels would successfully record in 4K.

00:44:19   I genuinely have no idea if it would or not,

00:44:21   but I think it's a fun experiment

00:44:23   that you should definitely try.

00:44:24   - I mean, I think it should.

00:44:25   Like, it doesn't care about it.

00:44:26   It's just files and streams.

00:44:28   - Agreed, and I think that the,

00:44:30   and what this, I think, more boils down to

00:44:32   is HD Home Run more than it does channels.

00:44:35   I would assume the HD home run is just basically using the cable card, and again, I'm outside

00:44:40   my comfort zone now, using the cable card to decrypt, decode, whatever the stuff that's

00:44:44   coming in over coax and then just basically dump those bits right to the network.

00:44:49   Yeah, it has no idea what the content is.

00:44:52   So I think that is true.

00:44:53   And I believe my cable cards, from the research I did, the cable card itself is capable of

00:44:58   handling 4K content.

00:45:00   I think that's how the Verizon channels work.

00:45:02   It's just a question of what downstream of that can handle it.

00:45:04   So for example, my TiVo can't handle 4K content.

00:45:08   It's just too old.

00:45:08   It predates 4K.

00:45:09   So even though my cable card could put that out,

00:45:11   the TiVo is just going to show you 1080 no matter what.

00:45:14   If you've got one of the newer TiVos,

00:45:15   the newer TiVos say they are 4K capable,

00:45:18   but I'm pretty sure what they mean is we support streaming

00:45:22   apps.

00:45:22   If your streaming service supports 4K,

00:45:25   our apps can show it.

00:45:26   So you could use the Netflix app on the TiVo

00:45:28   to show 4K content, and it would work.

00:45:31   I don't think it means that we can show 4K content

00:45:34   your cable car but I'm not going to buy one of those to find out.

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00:47:23   (upbeat music)

00:47:26   One final thing on televisions,

00:47:29   another TV setup thing that I was doing recently

00:47:31   is audio sync and audio delay.

00:47:35   Maybe I did this on my past TV,

00:47:37   but I don't remember it being quite as painful, right?

00:47:40   So to get an idea of what I'm talking about,

00:47:43   have you ever watched something on television

00:47:45   and it seems like the person's lips are not in sync

00:47:48   with what they're saying?

00:47:49   And no, not because it's dubbed into a different length.

00:47:51   That's the situation I was feeling

00:47:53   when I was watching television on some things.

00:47:56   I'm like, oh, I should set the audio sync up.

00:47:59   Because I'm using a receiver,

00:48:00   pretty much every receiver has a setting

00:48:03   where you can adjust the audio delay to match the video.

00:48:07   And I don't remember how I did this last time.

00:48:09   Maybe last time I just did it by eyeball,

00:48:12   but I find it incredibly difficult to use a setting

00:48:16   to go to increase and decrease the delay

00:48:19   to get the audio to match someone's lips.

00:48:23   It's way harder than you think it is.

00:48:25   So I'm gonna give some tips for what I am doing.

00:48:27   So my first tip is, use a documentary.

00:48:31   You cannot use a movie or a television show to do this

00:48:34   because there's so much ADR,

00:48:36   additional dialogue recording or whatever,

00:48:37   so much of the time,

00:48:38   the audio you hear coming out of someone's mouth

00:48:40   is not what the actor said in that moment

00:48:43   that they are being recorded on video.

00:48:44   It is later they came in and re-recorded the audio.

00:48:47   So use a documentary, because they tend not

00:48:49   to do ADR in documentaries.

00:48:51   At least I really hope they don't,

00:48:52   have the people come in later and try to match

00:48:54   what they said earlier.

00:48:56   So what I was using was the--

00:48:59   what was it called--

00:48:59   Light and Magic, the ILM documentaries on Disney+.

00:49:03   There's lots of interviews with talking heads and people

00:49:06   sitting there, and I figured that's

00:49:07   got to be like live audio, because it's all just

00:49:09   interviewing people.

00:49:12   But then I tried to do it by eye, and I just can't do it.

00:49:16   Sometimes I can't even tell which direction

00:49:18   should I be going.

00:49:19   Should I be going negative delay or positive delay?

00:49:22   I can tell when it looks wrong, but I can't convince myself

00:49:25   that it looks right.

00:49:26   I needed a better tool for this.

00:49:28   I was hoping there'd be some automated tool that would do it,

00:49:31   but I didn't find any.

00:49:33   So if you Google for this, you will find various applications

00:49:37   that will--

00:49:38   not applications, videos that will help you with this.

00:49:41   So here's the one I used.

00:49:42   I will put this link in the show notes.

00:49:44   maybe Margo can make it the chapter art.

00:49:47   This is a video available on YouTube.

00:49:50   There is a bunch of ones like this.

00:49:52   And it just shows an animation with like a bar

00:49:56   across the screen with a little highlight

00:49:58   that goes from left to right.

00:50:00   It goes, "Zoop, zoop, zoop," left and right.

00:50:01   And when the little highlight hits exactly in the middle,

00:50:04   there's a beep.

00:50:05   And it's got a bunch of things.

00:50:07   It's got four circles that appear on the lower left.

00:50:10   It's got a bar graph that hits the top.

00:50:12   But the main important thing is the little white highlight

00:50:15   and the bar that hits the zero point when the beep goes.

00:50:19   And it's got little millisecond markings.

00:50:21   And what you're supposed to do

00:50:23   is just play this looping video.

00:50:25   They think they want you to eyeball it.

00:50:27   They say, "You should hear the beep

00:50:29   "when the highlight is in the middle."

00:50:30   Even this I found so hard to do

00:50:33   'cause it goes by so fast and I'm staring at it

00:50:35   and I'm like, "Is it beeping when it's in the middle?"

00:50:38   You can convince yourself

00:50:39   that it is beeping when it's in the middle.

00:50:42   But then when I did it, okay, like, I was like,

00:50:44   okay, I think it's in the middle.

00:50:45   But then I would look at a bar that's like five bars

00:50:47   to the left, and I can convince myself that it's beeping

00:50:49   when it hits the fifth bar to the left.

00:50:51   And I can also convince myself that it's beeping

00:50:53   when it hits the fifth bar to the right.

00:50:54   It's just too fast for my eyeballs to handle.

00:50:56   Maybe we need a young person or a Jedi, I don't know.

00:50:59   I could not do it.

00:51:01   So this screenshot that I just put in the chat

00:51:04   and then we'll put in the show notes,

00:51:06   here's what I actually did.

00:51:07   I used the 240 frames per second slow-mo video recording

00:51:10   on my iPhone to record a video of the video playing

00:51:15   on my TV, and then I brought it into iMovie

00:51:18   so I could see the waveform of the audio,

00:51:21   and if you see in the screenshot,

00:51:22   what I would do is I would say,

00:51:24   "I'm not gonna trust my ears to tell me

00:51:25   "when the beep is going.

00:51:27   "I want the highlight to be on zero when the beep,

00:51:31   "when the beep is playing."

00:51:33   And then I had to make a judgment call,

00:51:34   because if you see a beep in an audio waveform,

00:51:37   it's not just a single spike,

00:51:38   especially at 240 frames per second.

00:51:40   It's like a plateau.

00:51:42   So if you look at the waveform, it's like it has an attack

00:51:44   and then like, what is it called?

00:51:46   - Decay. - Decay.

00:51:47   I had to decide at what point do I want to align the zero.

00:51:51   I could have aligned the zero the first time

00:51:54   the waveform comes off silence,

00:51:57   like the second the beep begins,

00:51:59   but I'm like, that's probably not how this video is done.

00:52:01   They probably have the beep time to trigger at zero

00:52:05   for it to peak at zero maybe.

00:52:07   So I kind of split the difference.

00:52:08   So if you look at the screenshot,

00:52:09   this is what I decided to do.

00:52:10   I said, I want the highlight to be on zero

00:52:14   when the sound has sort of just began

00:52:18   and is near its peak before it starts to decay.

00:52:21   And you would think it wouldn't make

00:52:23   that much of a difference,

00:52:23   but if you adjust the delay by a tiny amount,

00:52:26   you can target the beginning of the waveform,

00:52:28   the middle of the waveform, the end of the waveform.

00:52:30   Again, this is naturally stretched out

00:52:31   'cause it's 240 frames per second,

00:52:33   but I got it as close as I could.

00:52:34   And also in this screenshot,

00:52:35   you'll see the interface I was talking about last time

00:52:37   where it blacks out the screen

00:52:38   and shows this like ugly text.

00:52:39   That's my receiver's sound delay input thing.

00:52:43   And of course, you have to configure this per input

00:52:45   because it varies.

00:52:46   The good thing is that every single thing in my stack

00:52:49   has a YouTube app.

00:52:50   So I can play this YouTube video on all of them.

00:52:52   What I'm hoping is that the YouTube app has the same delay

00:52:56   as anything else, which I think it probably does

00:52:58   because in the end, the receiver doesn't know

00:53:00   what app you're running.

00:53:01   The receiver is just receiving audio

00:53:02   and the thing is just showing video.

00:53:05   So I did individual delays for all of my things.

00:53:09   They all had slightly different delays.

00:53:11   And I did it graphically,

00:53:13   by taking lots and lots of high resolution videos,

00:53:16   high speed videos and lining them up.

00:53:18   And then I would go back and adjust the delay

00:53:20   and then pull the stuff into iMovie and look at it again,

00:53:22   adjust the delay and go on and on and on.

00:53:24   And eventually I got them all lined up to my satisfaction.

00:53:28   And then I watched, you know, a documentary again.

00:53:30   And you can get so inside your head about this,

00:53:33   you can be like, are their lips matching?

00:53:35   How do people's lips move when they talk?

00:53:37   Some people's lips move differently than others

00:53:39   when saying the same words.

00:53:40   Some people don't move their lips a lot when they talk.

00:53:42   Some people do.

00:53:43   So I'd look for plosives,

00:53:45   'cause you'd know when lips would come together

00:53:47   and then pop out with a P sound.

00:53:49   Anyway, I think I've got it dialed in

00:53:53   to be as close as humanly possible

00:53:56   using all the tools available to me.

00:53:57   But boy, would I love it if there wasn't a tool

00:54:00   that would do this for you.

00:54:01   If you have wireless speakers,

00:54:03   Apple TV has a speaker that says,

00:54:05   I will do audio sync for your wireless speakers.

00:54:08   And they want you to hold your phone up and do whatever,

00:54:09   but it only does it for wireless speakers

00:54:11   as far as I can tell.

00:54:12   And the other advice I'll give to anyone

00:54:14   who is going down this road is,

00:54:16   sound travels not that fast.

00:54:18   If you try to do this calibration

00:54:21   right next to your television,

00:54:22   it'll be wrong on your couch.

00:54:23   - Yep.

00:54:24   - If your couch like mine is 10 feet away.

00:54:25   Because like every foot is like,

00:54:27   I didn't do the math on this,

00:54:27   but every foot is like a millisecond or something like it's--

00:54:29   - I think it's about every meter.

00:54:31   - Yeah, or anyway, if your couch is 10 feet away

00:54:34   from your television like mine,

00:54:36   sit on the couch when you do it,

00:54:37   because you get different numbers

00:54:39   than if you were like an inch from the television, right?

00:54:41   And I found that out the hard way,

00:54:44   'cause I did the first one really close to it,

00:54:46   and then I did the second one back,

00:54:47   and I'm like, wait a second,

00:54:48   these numbers are all different,

00:54:49   and so I had to read them all from the couch position.

00:54:52   Again, I don't remember going through all this pain

00:54:56   with my television earlier,

00:54:57   but that was so many years ago, maybe I did.

00:54:59   Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it,

00:55:00   because I was watching documentaries

00:55:03   where the lip sync should have been perfect,

00:55:04   but now as far as I can tell it is perfect

00:55:06   and hopefully it won't drift over time.

00:55:09   - This is one reason why I'm so happy

00:55:11   that I work with audio and not video.

00:55:14   There's just so many more things that can break you in video

00:55:17   or things you have to worry about.

00:55:18   Just audio only is so nice.

00:55:21   - Yeah, yeah.

00:55:22   I wish the television or the receiver

00:55:25   had a way to do this visually because expecting humans,

00:55:27   people should play this game on like on your own.

00:55:30   If you don't have receiver,

00:55:31   you probably won't be able to play it.

00:55:31   - No, no, people should not play this.

00:55:33   Ignorance is bliss, no, no.

00:55:36   - If you don't have a receiver,

00:55:37   everything should be in sync anyway.

00:55:38   'Cause remember, the delay I'm adjusting

00:55:40   is on the receiver itself.

00:55:41   Oh yeah, one other thing.

00:55:43   HDMI 2.1 supposedly has auto latency adjustment

00:55:46   built into the protocol,

00:55:48   and there is a setting on my receiver that says,

00:55:50   do you want me to adjust the latency automatically?

00:55:52   But it's on, it's on by default, right?

00:55:54   So it thinks it's doing that,

00:55:56   and then I had to decide, should I leave that setting on

00:55:59   and also do the auto delay,

00:56:00   or should I turn it off and do the auto delay?

00:56:02   In the end, I left it on and did the audio delay.

00:56:04   But I can tell you with that feature on,

00:56:05   that doesn't fix the delay.

00:56:07   Maybe it's getting closer or maybe it's screwing it up.

00:56:09   Either way, I left it on and dialed in the audio delay

00:56:12   on top of that.

00:56:13   So I don't know the deal with that feature is,

00:56:16   maybe it varies by receiver,

00:56:17   but just be aware that that is a thing.

00:56:19   And in theory, maybe it's not necessary in your setup.

00:56:21   But even if you just have something as simple as a soundbar

00:56:24   or any kind of receiver that is sort of decoding signals

00:56:27   or doing anything like that, you could experience this.

00:56:30   And all of my delays were positive.

00:56:34   So I think that's basically adding a delay to say,

00:56:37   yes, I didn't run out of receiver, you got the audio

00:56:39   and you're ready to play it right now,

00:56:41   but just hold back 120 milliseconds

00:56:43   and then play that audio

00:56:44   because then you'll be in sync with the television.

00:56:46   And it also may be related to the delays in the television.

00:56:49   So if you're doing lots of processing on the television

00:56:51   and it's slow, that may be inducing a delay.

00:56:53   So dial in your TV settings before you do this.

00:56:56   Make sure it's configured the way you want

00:56:58   with whatever features you're going to use

00:57:00   on your television and then do the audio delay

00:57:02   with whatever those video processing things are.

00:57:05   - And wait, it's 120 milliseconds?

00:57:06   That's a lot.

00:57:08   - Yeah, I mean, I don't, again, I couldn't even tell

00:57:10   whether it was positive or negative doing it by hand,

00:57:12   but doing it graphically, there's no lying

00:57:14   about the waveforms, like there it is,

00:57:16   240 frames per second, they were all positive.

00:57:18   They were positive somewhere around

00:57:21   the low hundred milliseconds.

00:57:23   - Wow.

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00:59:19   [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:59:23   One more piece of follow-up.

00:59:24   This has been fascinating, but it's gone on longer

00:59:27   than I expected.

00:59:28   This has been going around a little while--

00:59:30   you're welcome, Marco.

00:59:31   This tweet or Twitter thread has been going around

00:59:33   for a little while.

00:59:34   This is by Nicky Tonski.

00:59:35   And it starts with, OK thread of weird stuff found

00:59:38   in the redesigned macOS Ventura system settings app.

00:59:41   And it's a series of images and videos and screen captures

00:59:46   and whatnot about how freaking broken

00:59:49   the system setting app is in Ventura,

00:59:51   and, ooh, it's rough, y'all, it's not good.

00:59:55   - Yeah, I was going to,

00:59:57   I wanted to see if this actually changed in beta,

01:00:00   I think it was beta five that was just released,

01:00:01   so I updated my MappleCare to that earlier today,

01:00:03   and I was poking around settings,

01:00:04   and I had that little thing that says,

01:00:07   you have 27 days left or whatever to add AppleCare,

01:00:10   and so I clicked on that,

01:00:11   and took a very long time to load,

01:00:13   it loaded a different screen in the meantime,

01:00:14   and then it eventually popped in,

01:00:16   and I clicked the like, Remind Me Later button,

01:00:19   and that has now frozen the system settings app

01:00:21   in such a way that I cannot quit it.

01:00:23   The whole thing is dimmed,

01:00:25   and it's dimmed as if it's showing a modal,

01:00:27   but it's no longer showing a modal,

01:00:28   and it's dimmed, and I'm stuck on the WiFi pane forever,

01:00:31   and I can't quit it.

01:00:32   So that's the state we're in. - Cool.

01:00:33   - I mean, this is just one of so many tiny ways

01:00:36   this is broken.

01:00:37   This app, I mean, look, this is the one that, you know,

01:00:40   people are complaining a lot about the design,

01:00:42   which is, I think, a very valid complaint to make.

01:00:45   It is all based on SwiftUI,

01:00:48   and people are blaming SwiftUI,

01:00:50   and I think that is partly responsible,

01:00:52   but not entirely responsible.

01:00:54   I think it is very possible to make great designs

01:00:57   and great apps with SwiftUI.

01:00:59   This is just not one of them.

01:01:00   But ultimately, this app, it feels really sloppy.

01:01:05   It feels half-baked and incomplete and buggy,

01:01:09   and the layouts are oftentimes very difficult

01:01:12   who understand, they oftentimes are very unattractive,

01:01:15   they look unpolished, this is not what you expect from Apple

01:01:19   this is something that you expect from Windows,

01:01:22   or worse, Windows has actually gotten better

01:01:24   than this recently, like this is not to Apple standards

01:01:29   and quite frankly, this in beta five might be acceptable

01:01:35   if it was beta one, but it's not,

01:01:39   like we're too far along now, I really don't think

01:01:42   this is salvageable.

01:01:42   And I think the only way Apple should go forward with this

01:01:47   is to, for this release for Ventura,

01:01:52   revert back to the old settings app

01:01:54   and work on this for the next year or two

01:01:56   and then ship it when it's ready.

01:01:57   This is not ready yet.

01:01:59   - Yeah, it's unclear what they're gonna do about this

01:02:02   because by the time we get a beta inside Apple,

01:02:05   it's gone much farther forward.

01:02:07   But like you said, it's like this is beta five,

01:02:09   it's not beta one.

01:02:10   People always complain like, stop, what are you talking about?

01:02:11   it's a beta, of course things are broken or whatever.

01:02:13   There is a cadence to betas.

01:02:16   Things are most broken in the first beta,

01:02:18   and then they're supposed to get better over time.

01:02:19   And there's a time horizon.

01:02:20   You can't leave something in a super-duper broken state,

01:02:23   and then it'll be all fixed in the very last beta.

01:02:26   Maybe if it's some minor thing or whatever,

01:02:27   but this is, there's a lot of things having to do

01:02:30   with opinion and usability and stuff,

01:02:32   but there are things that are just not opinion-based.

01:02:34   Like, for example, the confirmation button on a screen

01:02:38   being cut off so you can't read the text,

01:02:40   and there's no way you can change that,

01:02:41   That's not an opinion based thing.

01:02:43   And that's just not finished software.

01:02:44   And if that's in beta one, fine.

01:02:46   But if five betas go by and it still looks like that,

01:02:48   it's like, what's the holdup

01:02:50   on making the confirmation button visible on this screen?

01:02:53   Have they just not gotten to it yet?

01:02:56   I think it's salvageable in that you can look at this

01:02:58   and say, okay, setting aside the usability thing,

01:03:01   setting aside appearance, aesthetics,

01:03:03   setting all that aside, can we just fix the things

01:03:05   where things are just plain broken,

01:03:07   where you can't click or see a button

01:03:09   where a label overlaps with another thing,

01:03:11   that's not opinion, that is just something you need to fix.

01:03:14   All those are fixable, you can look at them and say,

01:03:17   I'm gonna make a punch list,

01:03:18   here are all the things we need to do.

01:03:19   Can't see this button, this label overlaps this thing,

01:03:21   this window is too short, this window is too tall,

01:03:24   just fix 'em, right?

01:03:25   Those are all fixable,

01:03:27   but you start to ask questions on the outside,

01:03:30   why haven't they been fixed in five betas?

01:03:32   Are they saving all that for the end,

01:03:34   'cause it's just so easy for them to fix,

01:03:35   that oh, we'll just go through in the end

01:03:36   to make sure all the buttons are visible, right?

01:03:38   Why would they save it?

01:03:40   Or is there something about the framework they're using

01:03:43   or something that makes it difficult to change that?

01:03:45   They're trying to fix it,

01:03:46   but they haven't come up with a good way to do it.

01:03:48   Or maybe it's like, it's not our fix to make,

01:03:50   we're doing the right thing,

01:03:51   but this SwiftUI widget, the team needs to fix it

01:03:55   and we're waiting for them to ship us to fix.

01:03:56   So we here on the system setting team,

01:03:57   there's nothing we can do.

01:03:58   We just got to sit around and wait.

01:03:59   And when the SwiftUI team gets around

01:04:01   to fixing that control or fixing their metrics

01:04:03   on this particular thing,

01:04:04   our stuff will just magically work.

01:04:06   And that will come in the final beta

01:04:07   and fix everything, right?

01:04:09   So we can't know from the outside

01:04:10   which of those things is true.

01:04:12   But what we can know from the outside is,

01:04:14   this is unshippable.

01:04:16   And plenty of betas are unshippable.

01:04:17   That's why you don't ship the beta.

01:04:18   They're by definition unshippable,

01:04:20   but this is unshippable for reasons like,

01:04:22   not like, oh, this is buggy or slow or is ugly or something.

01:04:26   Like, they literally can't ship this

01:04:29   because people won't be able to read the text on the button

01:04:31   that they have to click to dismiss a window, right?

01:04:34   You just can't ship that.

01:04:36   So if they don't fix that before the release version,

01:04:40   they have to decide what to do.

01:04:43   They could DiscoveryD this and say,

01:04:44   well, we couldn't fix it in time.

01:04:46   We don't know why they couldn't fix it.

01:04:48   We couldn't fix it because, again,

01:04:49   maybe the framework is broken or whatever.

01:04:51   We don't have time.

01:04:52   So we're just going to revert.

01:04:53   But if they revert, are there any new preferences in Ventura

01:04:56   that they would then have to re-implement in the old version?

01:04:58   Because this shares no UI with the old one.

01:05:01   So I feel kind of like how they ship DiscoveryD.

01:05:04   this may not be that easy to revert.

01:05:06   If they added any new preferences,

01:05:08   I don't think they're going to spend any time

01:05:10   adding those new preferences back to the old preference panes

01:05:14   It could be that there are no new preferences,

01:05:16   so this is an issue, but I think,

01:05:18   I mean, to give one example, someone was,

01:05:20   I think it was Jason Stell wrote up something about this,

01:05:22   network locations are gone in Ventura,

01:05:24   and someone filed a bug against it,

01:05:26   and the bug was closed as works correctly.

01:05:28   Now in theory, you could, you know,

01:05:32   because you could see that and say,

01:05:33   oh, well that means Apple is telling me

01:05:35   that they're not going to support network locations anymore.

01:05:37   But I don't trust the close reason for bugs long enough

01:05:40   to say that definitively,

01:05:42   but based on the information that we have,

01:05:44   it seems like Apple is saying network locations

01:05:46   are not a thing in Ventura.

01:05:48   But if you revert to the old system settings app,

01:05:51   it'll have network locations again.

01:05:53   So will that UI not work,

01:05:54   'cause it's not connected to anything,

01:05:55   or will it just work

01:05:56   because they didn't actually remove the functionality,

01:05:58   they're just removing the UI?

01:05:59   Too many questions,

01:06:00   But for it to be this far along

01:06:04   and still have these kind of fundamental errors

01:06:06   is not reassuring.

01:06:07   Now granted, it's only August,

01:06:08   this thing is gonna ship in the fall,

01:06:09   maybe in October or November.

01:06:11   So there's still, calendar-wise,

01:06:13   lots of time for them to fix this.

01:06:15   But from the outside,

01:06:17   it's starting to look a little bit concerning

01:06:18   that really, really basic functional stuff is not working.

01:06:22   And I would encourage everyone who thinks we're overreacting

01:06:25   to look at the thread.

01:06:26   They're not hard to fix.

01:06:28   Oh, just make the window bigger,

01:06:29   just move the button up,

01:06:30   Just move the label.

01:06:31   They seem like they're not hard to fix.

01:06:33   And if you're having that reaction,

01:06:34   you're like, why is everyone overreaction?

01:06:35   These are all easy to fix.

01:06:36   Ask yourself why they're not fixed yet then.

01:06:38   That's what we don't understand on the outside.

01:06:40   Again, there's lots of plausible reasons for it,

01:06:42   but Apple's not gonna tell us what the real reasons are.

01:06:44   So we're just out here waiting patiently,

01:06:46   hoping one day a beta will come,

01:06:48   all these layout issues will be fixed,

01:06:49   and then we'll be back to our earlier complaints,

01:06:51   which is even though everything works,

01:06:53   we still don't like it for reasons X, Y, and Z

01:06:55   that are more opinion-based

01:06:56   and less your UI is truncated-based.

01:07:00   - Yeah, but see, it seems, using this feels like

01:07:04   this has been a failure of the process

01:07:07   somewhere along the way.

01:07:08   When you see what the settings app is and how it works,

01:07:10   it feels like an early demo that you might have brought

01:07:14   to a design meeting inside Apple and said,

01:07:15   "Hey, we should do something like this

01:07:17   "for the next version of macOS."

01:07:19   And then the team would have evaluated it,

01:07:21   scheduled it, and we would have seen it

01:07:23   after it was done and polished,

01:07:25   and beta one would have had very few issues.

01:07:28   That's how Apple usually does most of their features.

01:07:31   Beta 1 of almost anything is never as broken as this app is,

01:07:35   let alone Beta 5.

01:07:37   And so it seems like somehow this design,

01:07:41   which is pretty rough, got approved or shoved through.

01:07:46   And then the implementation, which is also really rough,

01:07:51   got scheduled for a release that it can't make.

01:07:56   Look, we know how this is gonna go.

01:07:58   We know that Apple's current design team

01:08:01   does not take feedback well.

01:08:04   And look, Apple as a company culture

01:08:08   is extremely thin-skinned.

01:08:12   They cannot take criticism,

01:08:14   and they think they are right all of the time.

01:08:17   - They did roll back the Safari changes though,

01:08:19   let's be fair.

01:08:20   That's very recent history.

01:08:21   - That was kind of at the last minute,

01:08:23   and I think that was kind of reluctantly, but--

01:08:26   - I mean that gets me back to the question

01:08:27   of how easy is it to roll back?

01:08:28   Apparently Safari was pretty easy to roll back.

01:08:30   How easy is this to roll back?

01:08:31   - Well and also, the Safari changes mostly happened

01:08:34   on the iPhone, where there were a lot of,

01:08:36   there was a large outcry among iPhone beta users,

01:08:39   even non-developers, 'cause a lot of people

01:08:41   use the iPhone betas.

01:08:42   On the Mac, they seem to take feedback even less so

01:08:47   and even slower and even worse.

01:08:48   I mean look, look at how bad the notifications

01:08:50   have been messed up since Big Sur

01:08:52   and they're still that messed up.

01:08:53   Like they haven't fixed them or tweaked them at all

01:08:55   as far as we can tell, and it's a very broken design.

01:08:58   - Yeah, okay, notifications is a good example

01:09:00   because there's both kinds of feedback.

01:09:03   Oh, I don't like it because it's harder to get at features

01:09:05   or there's less information available

01:09:07   or things only appear in mouseover.

01:09:08   That's sort of more design-based, right?

01:09:12   But there are also things like,

01:09:13   I think we posted a video a while back,

01:09:16   functional features where when you go to click the button,

01:09:18   it disappears from under your cursor.

01:09:19   That's not opinion-based.

01:09:20   That's just plain a bug.

01:09:22   It's just not supposed to work that way.

01:09:24   Now granted, there's a workaround in that case,

01:09:26   whereas in some of these cases in systems,

01:09:27   I think there's no workaround,

01:09:28   but if I can't mouse over the button

01:09:31   that I'm supposed to click and click it,

01:09:33   there's no opinion about that.

01:09:34   That's just plain broken.

01:09:35   And there are features like that in notifications

01:09:38   that haven't gotten fixed.

01:09:39   But they didn't roll back the notification design

01:09:41   'cause I think they like the design, to your point, Marco.

01:09:43   They think the design is better.

01:09:45   They disagree with us about that.

01:09:46   But also the bugs, which are not opinion-based,

01:09:49   they still haven't fixed.

01:09:50   Maybe that's a framework thing.

01:09:51   I'm pretty sure the notification is a Swift UI too.

01:09:53   Maybe that's a framework thing as well,

01:09:54   and the notification team can't fix that

01:09:56   because it's not their bug, it's a SwiftUI bug,

01:09:58   but either way, lots of things are falling down

01:10:01   in macOS these days.

01:10:03   - Right, and it seems like the feedback loop

01:10:05   is broken in some way.

01:10:06   Like these things should not be getting out here

01:10:08   in the state that they are in,

01:10:10   and what will probably happen here,

01:10:13   we've seen what happens with Mac efforts recently.

01:10:17   The hardware is amazing, the software is kinda half-assed,

01:10:20   and when things are a little bit buggy

01:10:21   a little bit broken, they basically never get fixed.

01:10:24   Like when this ships, and this will ship,

01:10:27   when this ships in October, November, whenever,

01:10:30   whatever problems and shortcomings it has,

01:10:33   it's probably gonna have for a long time,

01:10:35   because Apple does not give themselves enough time

01:10:38   or bandwidth or priority to fix macOS bugs very often.

01:10:41   macOS bugs tend to stick around,

01:10:43   and macOS design shortcomings stick around even longer.

01:10:46   So that's why this is so disheartening to see,

01:10:49   because I know they're gonna just half-ass this out there

01:10:54   and then just never touch it again.

01:10:56   - I don't know, I think if they can't get

01:10:59   the basic layout features fixed in time

01:11:02   for their target ship date in the fall,

01:11:04   then they will roll this back.

01:11:06   Because they literally can't ship a thing

01:11:08   where you bring up a screen and you can't click the button.

01:11:10   Like they just, they will not ship that.

01:11:12   I've never, they will not ship a thing

01:11:14   where you'd have to know that there's a button

01:11:16   that you can't see and you have to hit return

01:11:17   to activate it or something,

01:11:18   they're just not gonna ship that period, right?

01:11:20   So if they can't get just that one screen

01:11:23   on that one thing, like there's a tweet

01:11:24   for one of those things where it says the button,

01:11:28   the confirm button is not visible.

01:11:30   They won't ship that, they just won't, right?

01:11:32   And so if they can't, that one screen

01:11:34   could hold up the entire design.

01:11:36   Because it's not like they can revert one preference pane

01:11:38   to the old one as far as I know.

01:11:40   I think it's like all or nothing.

01:11:41   So if they get to October and this one screen,

01:11:45   just to give one example,

01:11:47   They can't find a way to fix it, they literally can't do it.

01:11:49   They have to roll the whole thing back.

01:11:52   And I'm not entirely convinced that they

01:11:55   won't be faced with that decision.

01:11:56   Now granted, it's only August, October's a long way away.

01:11:59   Like we don't need to be paranoid about it or whatever,

01:12:02   but as the months wear on, watch these things.

01:12:05   See how they go, 'cause it only takes one of them

01:12:08   to make it unshippable, right?

01:12:10   'Cause some people want, whatever this screen is,

01:12:13   some people want to use it, and if you can't dismiss

01:12:16   the window because the button isn't anywhere

01:12:18   visible for you to click on.

01:12:19   You can't ship that.

01:12:20   Like, what do you do, just quit the app at that point?

01:12:23   Well, there's a modal dialogue up

01:12:25   that I can't dismiss because I can't see the button.

01:12:27   So game over.

01:12:29   So I will continue to watch the betas.

01:12:31   I hope there will be a future beta where the basic layout

01:12:34   bugs are all fixed.

01:12:35   And then we can go back to complaining

01:12:37   about the more nuanced things.

01:12:38   I hope you're right.

01:12:39   But frankly, I don't trust them to make that call.

01:12:43   Like if you look at the clear and persistent quality

01:12:49   problems that Apple allows to ship in Mac OS,

01:12:53   I don't trust them to make that call the way you say they will.

01:12:57   I hope we get an email from Apple saying, as I said,

01:12:59   that inside Apple, we were using a build from like a month ago,

01:13:03   right?

01:13:03   Maybe all this is fixed already inside Apple.

01:13:05   And so Apple people who are working on system settings

01:13:07   or know about it, please send us an email and say,

01:13:09   oh, don't worry.

01:13:10   That stuff that you're looking at, that

01:13:11   was fixed three weeks ago.

01:13:12   and it's all gonna be good in the next beta.

01:13:14   I would love for that to be true.

01:13:15   - Here's what I think might happen instead.

01:13:18   So Mac OS is going to be holding back

01:13:21   the release of some hardware.

01:13:23   Whatever Macs are gonna be released

01:13:24   at that October or November or whatever event,

01:13:27   those are gonna require the newest version of Mac OS.

01:13:29   And so they're gonna declare the ship date of Mac OS

01:13:32   to coincide with that hardware launch.

01:13:35   And so whatever they have at this point,

01:13:38   they're gonna ship it then.

01:13:40   That's it.

01:13:41   I think they will tolerate a lot of bugs

01:13:44   to hit that hardware ship date.

01:13:45   And then they'll say, oh, we'll fix it in 0.1.

01:13:48   Yep.

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01:15:46   (upbeat music)

01:15:48   - If you'll permit me to change subject ever so slightly,

01:15:51   can we talk about feedback with Apple?

01:15:53   - Oh God, I'm so mad right now.

01:15:54   - I'm grumpy, fellas.

01:15:56   I'm grumpy again.

01:15:57   (laughing)

01:15:58   I'm grumpy.

01:15:59   So I did what third party developers are told to do

01:16:04   and I filed bugs, let me rephrase that,

01:16:07   I wasted my time, I'm sorry, no, I'm being too cruel,

01:16:10   I filed bugs and I filed a few bugs

01:16:13   against various SwiftUI things, both old and new,

01:16:15   mostly new, and those bugs went into /dev/null

01:16:20   as they always do, but because I'm a turd

01:16:23   and because I know people on the inside,

01:16:25   I asked a friend on the inside,

01:16:27   hey, for this feedback number,

01:16:28   can you tell me what the hell's going on?

01:16:31   And this friend said,

01:16:34   "Oh, you filed that really late, didn't you?"

01:16:37   I'm sorry, what now?

01:16:38   I filed this like a month or two ago.

01:16:40   Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's way too late.

01:16:42   - What?

01:16:43   - I'm sorry, what now?

01:16:45   I thought, and we were always told,

01:16:48   and I'm not sure what the genesis of this really was,

01:16:50   but we were always told as third-party developers,

01:16:53   you gotta file these bugs early

01:16:55   when the new betas come out so we have time to fix them.

01:16:58   Okay, that's a little bit crummy

01:17:00   that our world has to stop in order to serve

01:17:03   as your external QA, but fine, okay, fine, fine.

01:17:06   That's what I'll do.

01:17:07   Again, maybe this is my misunderstanding.

01:17:09   I don't wanna say that this is like fact,

01:17:11   Casey List reports, you know, or anything like that.

01:17:13   I'm just telling you a casual conversation I had.

01:17:16   But apparently filing things in July, mid-July,

01:17:20   or even early August is not really leaving enough time.

01:17:23   And that's just not cool to begin with.

01:17:26   But leaving that aside for a minute,

01:17:28   I said, "Okay, well, is there any action on this?"

01:17:30   A couple of these.

01:17:31   He said, "Oh, yeah, this one's been duped to such and such.

01:17:34   "It won't land for a while.

01:17:35   "This one's been duped to that,

01:17:37   "and that won't land for a while."

01:17:38   And they said, "Oh, but there's a workaround for this one."

01:17:43   Sorry, what?

01:17:43   "Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a workaround."

01:17:45   And this individual pasted the text

01:17:47   that was clearly written for me to see.

01:17:50   It was absolutely clear that it was written for me to see.

01:17:53   And said, "Yeah, this is what it says

01:17:54   "at the bottom of that feedback."

01:17:57   Huh.

01:17:58   So I open up Feedback Assistant, and I'll give you one guess what is not at the bottom

01:18:01   of my feedback.

01:18:02   Any of that f***ing text, because it just never made it to me.

01:18:07   So let's play this back.

01:18:09   What Apple wants is for me to spend a not insignificant amount of my time generating

01:18:14   a sample project for all of these bugs that I'm calling to their attention.

01:18:20   Then I need to include them in a bug report that's clear and succinct, explaining exactly

01:18:25   what I expected and what actually happened.

01:18:27   Then I need to throw it across the wall.

01:18:28   I need to do this really, really, really soon after WWDC

01:18:32   if I wanna have even a prayer of getting a fix in.

01:18:36   And then what I need to do is talk to somebody

01:18:39   on the inside to get the feedback on my feedback.

01:18:41   How (beep) broken is this?

01:18:45   How broken is this?

01:18:46   This is not okay.

01:18:48   Well, you know what, actually, I take that back.

01:18:51   It's okay 'cause documentation is flawless

01:18:54   and tells me everything I need to know

01:18:56   about all of these different pieces and bits and bobs.

01:18:58   This is not okay.

01:19:01   It makes me so angry.

01:19:03   It is not okay that this is what Apple expects

01:19:06   the third-party developers to deal with.

01:19:08   This is broken, and it's broken from top to bottom.

01:19:12   I am so friggin' angry about this.

01:19:15   It is not okay, Apple.

01:19:17   I know that nobody is gonna listen to this,

01:19:19   because apparently providing feedback to Apple

01:19:22   never works if you do it in audio form.

01:19:25   So I'm probably gonna have to write a friggin' blog post

01:19:27   about this, which I also don't wanna have to do.

01:19:29   - No, you gotta make a YouTube video.

01:19:31   - Oh, you're right, actually, that is what I should do.

01:19:32   You know what, I should just set up in my backyard

01:19:36   and just rant about this, because then it may actually work.

01:19:39   It makes me so angry that I have put in all of this work.

01:19:43   I have put in a not insignificant amount of time

01:19:50   putting this together.

01:19:51   Let's say, I don't even know what an hourly rate is

01:19:54   for an iOS developer these days,

01:19:55   but several years ago it was like 150, 200 bucks an hour.

01:19:58   So let's charitably call it 150 bucks an hour.

01:20:01   I'm gonna send a (bleep) build Apple

01:20:03   for the like 300, 500, $600,000 of time

01:20:07   that I've spent doing their QA

01:20:10   only for them to give me nothing in return.

01:20:14   I am so angry about this and I need to chill out

01:20:18   and maybe I need to go downstairs and grab myself a Tito's,

01:20:20   but it's just not fair.

01:20:23   It's not fair to us.

01:20:24   And maybe that's whiny, and maybe I'm just a big baby,

01:20:27   but I don't think that's the case.

01:20:30   It's not fair that I put in all this work

01:20:33   to try to tell them exactly what's wrong, how it's wrong,

01:20:37   why I think it's wrong.

01:20:38   Here's a sample project that demonstrates how it's wrong,

01:20:41   and I get crickets in response.

01:20:44   Their own feedback, the feedback they put in,

01:20:48   which by the way actually was helpful,

01:20:50   didn't even make it to me.

01:20:52   It didn't even get here.

01:20:54   It's so broken and I hate it.

01:20:57   And I hate it from top to bottom and it makes me so mad.

01:21:00   - I wonder if that feedback is gonna appear

01:21:02   like two weeks from now.

01:21:03   'Cause I would imagine, you know,

01:21:05   whatever weird system of indirection,

01:21:07   like they added this indirection recently

01:21:08   where we do feedbacks and those become radars

01:21:10   and we used to be able to submit radars directly,

01:21:13   but now there's this, you know,

01:21:14   this second stage and this workflow.

01:21:17   I wonder if that feedback is slowly winding its way to you

01:21:19   and then like a week and a half after, you know,

01:21:22   iOS 16 is released, that feedback will appear

01:21:25   and you'll get a notification that says,

01:21:26   oh, you have some additional reply to your feedback

01:21:29   and then you'll see the workaround.

01:21:31   - Yeah, maybe, it could be.

01:21:33   But even if, okay, let's charitably assume that's the case.

01:21:36   That isn't helpful to me today.

01:21:39   It isn't helpful to me, so like as an example,

01:21:41   a specific example, Masquerade is currently broken in iOS 16.

01:21:45   The reason is, and maybe to some degree,

01:21:47   maybe this is a Casey problem.

01:21:49   I'm not saying that I am not at fault at all.

01:21:52   let me tell you the facts of the situation.

01:21:53   In iOS 15, the way Masquerade works is

01:21:56   there's like a parent view.

01:21:57   It's almost exclusively SwiftUI.

01:21:59   There's a parent view that will either show

01:22:01   one of two different sub-views depending on

01:22:04   where you are in the app,

01:22:05   whether you've loaded an image or not.

01:22:06   If you haven't loaded an image,

01:22:08   you get the like quick help and all that jazz.

01:22:10   There is no bottom toolbar at that juncture.

01:22:13   Once you load an image, the same parent view

01:22:15   is throwing away the like landing view

01:22:18   and putting in the standard editing view,

01:22:21   which has a bottom toolbar.

01:22:23   That doesn't work in iOS 16.

01:22:25   So I've had a handful of people say to me,

01:22:27   "Dude, what the hell happened to Masquerade?

01:22:28   "It's broken."

01:22:29   I'm like, "What?

01:22:30   "I can't share anything."

01:22:31   What?

01:22:32   It turns out there's no bottom toolbar

01:22:34   because apparently subbing a view

01:22:37   that didn't have a toolbar

01:22:39   and replacing it with one that does have a toolbar,

01:22:42   that does not work in iOS 16.

01:22:44   That is, to my eyes, a regression.

01:22:46   There's no reason that that shouldn't work

01:22:47   as far as I'm aware.

01:22:49   and that is a regression.

01:22:51   Now, what does that mean?

01:22:52   I have to figure out a way to fix this

01:22:54   before iOS 16 comes out,

01:22:57   or just not give a crap that my app doesn't work.

01:22:59   So, again, maybe I'm just being a baby.

01:23:03   I don't know, now I'm feeling bad that I got angry,

01:23:05   but how is this fair to me

01:23:08   that I have gotten zero feedback

01:23:10   as to what to do about this,

01:23:11   whether they've seen it, whether they care,

01:23:13   whether it'll get fixed, if it'll get fixed,

01:23:15   when will it get fixed?

01:23:16   Like, telling me at release time,

01:23:18   like you're saying, Jon, that very well may be

01:23:21   what's about to happen, but that doesn't help me

01:23:24   because I've gotta get it fixed

01:23:26   by the time iOS 16 is released.

01:23:29   This is not good, this is not good, and it's not fair.

01:23:33   It's not fair to me, it's not fair to my users,

01:23:35   it's not fair.

01:23:36   I would say my customers, but let's be honest,

01:23:38   they're Apple's customers, aren't they?

01:23:39   It's not fair, and I hate it.

01:23:42   - Well, first of all, you should ever feel bad

01:23:44   about your feelings, Casey.

01:23:45   (laughing)

01:23:46   - Thank you.

01:23:47   - Feel your feelings.

01:23:48   Second of all, after our wonderfully brief discussion

01:23:52   about TV processing, this probably woke everybody up.

01:23:54   So thank you for that.

01:23:56   But no, like this, I mean look,

01:23:59   if it makes you feel any better,

01:24:01   I did get a response to the main bug I've been tracking

01:24:04   for the last few weeks.

01:24:06   And I think I was happier before I got the response.

01:24:09   (laughing)

01:24:11   - I think your response is kind of an example

01:24:12   of what I was gonna say about Casey's thing.

01:24:14   For the second one where Casey,

01:24:15   where you had one behavior in 15 and it changes in 16.

01:24:19   It's kind of like the situation--

01:24:20   well, not as bad a situation here in Markup,

01:24:22   but this is part of doing app development in any platform,

01:24:24   especially a platform with not great documentation,

01:24:27   and especially a platform with not great documentation

01:24:29   where you can't even see the source code.

01:24:32   Making a complicated application,

01:24:34   sometimes you're not sure whether your app works because

01:24:38   of a bug or you're using a framework correctly.

01:24:41   And so when you're in a situation like this

01:24:43   where, hey, my thing breaks on the new OS,

01:24:45   you always have the question, maybe I was doing it wrong before,

01:24:48   and the new OS corrects a bug that breaks my app.

01:24:52   And you would think, if you're not a programmer,

01:24:54   you're like, oh, that seems like a weird situation.

01:24:55   But apps are complicated, and frameworks are complicated.

01:24:58   And there is no non-trivial application

01:25:01   where there isn't some part of the code that is just

01:25:03   accidentally working because of a misunderstanding of how

01:25:06   an API is supposed to use.

01:25:07   This happens all the time.

01:25:08   And that's frustrating, but that's also just part

01:25:10   of being an app developer.

01:25:12   Ideally, a good platform would clarify and say,

01:25:15   oh yeah, this used to work this way, but that was a bug.

01:25:18   We didn't intend it to work that way,

01:25:19   and that way has problems,

01:25:21   therefore on the new OS it works this way.

01:25:23   And from that you can figure out

01:25:24   how to work around your issue or whatever.

01:25:26   And not knowing also happens,

01:25:27   because sometimes there's just not enough people

01:25:29   to track it on all these little things

01:25:30   and everyone's little app,

01:25:31   'cause every single person's app could be relying on

01:25:35   a different piece of weird undocumented interaction.

01:25:38   Apple can't chase all those down,

01:25:40   figure out in all those cases

01:25:41   what all those things are doing.

01:25:43   It needs to do a better job than it is doing, obviously,

01:25:45   but there's always going to be a situation where

01:25:48   something in your app that used to work is now broken,

01:25:50   and it's radio silence about what you can do about it.

01:25:53   And I think it's unfair to expect Apple

01:25:54   to help every single developer

01:25:56   with personal attention like that,

01:25:57   'cause they just can't do it.

01:25:58   There's just too many developers, right?

01:26:00   Marco's situation,

01:26:01   which you can look at his Twitter thread for details,

01:26:03   so Marco's situation is kind of a little bit worse

01:26:05   in that he did get a response,

01:26:06   and the response was, the thing you wanna do,

01:26:09   that's not what the feature you're using

01:26:12   is meant to do.

01:26:13   You should use this feature instead.

01:26:15   But that's where Marco started.

01:26:16   He was using the other feature, but the other feature

01:26:18   is deprecated.

01:26:19   Yeah.

01:26:19   It's literally-- it's worse than that.

01:26:21   So literally, I didn't even post Apple's response to Twitter

01:26:24   because I didn't want to set them on fire.

01:26:25   But literally, so my issue is, I have--

01:26:30   in my app, you can change the tint color.

01:26:32   And I have features where you can have different tint color

01:26:35   for dark mode versus light mode.

01:26:37   And so I need to be able to change the tint color, which

01:26:39   is like the main accent color for the whole app

01:26:41   you know, controls and stuff,

01:26:42   shades the tint color programmatically.

01:26:44   And SwiftUI, and this is very easy in UIKit.

01:26:47   In SwiftUI, it has a modifier called dot accent color

01:26:51   that was used before, and you can set that

01:26:52   at the root of your view hierarchy,

01:26:54   so it can propagate through everything.

01:26:56   This is one of the features of SwiftUI,

01:26:58   of like, the power you get by being able to set

01:27:01   certain appearance modifiers at a root level of something,

01:27:04   and it automatically goes to everything underneath it.

01:27:07   That's one of the greatest advantages of SwiftUI.

01:27:09   And so, anyway, so this accent color modifier worked.

01:27:13   It does this perfectly fine.

01:27:14   Well, the new API they have,

01:27:16   the new navigation split view for iOS 16,

01:27:19   it wouldn't react to changes in this property

01:27:21   if it changed during runtime for the buttons

01:27:25   that are kind of internally managed by that.

01:27:27   Things like the back button in the navigation bar

01:27:30   wouldn't respond to changes in that tint color

01:27:33   with the new API that they've replaced that with,

01:27:35   which is called .tint.

01:27:37   They deprecated the old one, .accentColor, that worked.

01:27:40   And if you use .accentColor,

01:27:41   it'll give you a warning in the editor,

01:27:43   and it will say, this is deprecated, use .tint instead.

01:27:47   Which suggests to me that those are equivalent.

01:27:49   But if you use .tint, it doesn't work.

01:27:53   It won't change the colors.

01:27:55   And their response was literally like,

01:27:58   this isn't really intended to change

01:28:00   the color of entire stacks.

01:28:01   Don't use it at the root of your whole UI.

01:28:04   Use it on one control.

01:28:06   and that's not what the documentation says,

01:28:09   that's not anywhere in the editor.

01:28:10   If this function doesn't work or can't be trusted to work

01:28:15   at the root of a view hierarchy,

01:28:17   then if I use it at the root of a view hierarchy,

01:28:19   it should produce some kind of error or warning.

01:28:21   Ideally, they could probably have it at least at runtime.

01:28:23   But no, that isn't how it works.

01:28:25   It just fails in weird ways.

01:28:27   And their recommended workaround

01:28:28   is for me to go use the deprecated function.

01:28:30   - Cool.

01:28:31   - And so, I literally, I filed a bug,

01:28:33   and I was just like you, Casey, I was very dutiful,

01:28:36   I had a sample project, and every time a new beta came out,

01:28:40   I would rerun my sample project,

01:28:42   and I would update the bug saying,

01:28:44   FYI, this is still broken in developer beta three,

01:28:47   developer beta four, developer beta five.

01:28:49   I would keep updating it every time to re-update,

01:28:52   hey, I checked this again, it's still broken.

01:28:54   And so to get that response was basically blaming me

01:29:00   for this, for their, for something that's clearly their bug,

01:29:04   and basically saying it's my fault

01:29:05   for expecting it to work, and that, you know, too bad.

01:29:10   And that is infuriating.

01:29:11   - I don't think they blamed you,

01:29:13   and yes it is infuriating, but I think this is also--

01:29:14   - Oh, they absolutely blamed me,

01:29:15   they said it's not meant to be used this way.

01:29:17   - But that's not, but that's not blame, so here's the thing.

01:29:18   So they had bad documentation,

01:29:20   'cause they didn't explain this difference.

01:29:21   - They had no documentation.

01:29:22   - Right, well, bad or no documentation, right?

01:29:24   The Xcode suggestion of saying,

01:29:26   this is deprecated, use this instead,

01:29:27   you can imagine how that would come to be,

01:29:29   because although they are not equivalent

01:29:31   when set on entire hierarchy,

01:29:33   they are equivalent when set on a leaf node.

01:29:34   And when set on a leaf node, they are equivalent and do work.

01:29:37   What they were missing was communicating the fact

01:29:40   that tint color is not-- or whatever,

01:29:42   tint is not meant to be set on view hierarchies

01:29:44   whereas accent color is, right?

01:29:46   And I think the situation they're in is,

01:29:47   it's an annoying situation, but it

01:29:49   is a situation that probably happens all the time.

01:29:51   Certainly happens in lots of other platforms besides iOS,

01:29:54   where there is new functionality that

01:29:56   is different than the old functionality that is not

01:29:58   a drop-in replacement for it.

01:30:00   And the old functionality is deprecated

01:30:02   without any direct replacement for it.

01:30:04   So the old functionality is I can set accent color

01:30:06   in an entire hierarchy.

01:30:07   There is no non-deprecated way to do that.

01:30:10   That is an annoying situation to be in,

01:30:12   but it happens all the time.

01:30:13   I would say that you got a good experience

01:30:15   because you got this explained to you.

01:30:17   You didn't have to just wonder as your app goes out,

01:30:19   like why is it that accent color and tint color

01:30:21   don't do the same thing?

01:30:22   You actually got an answer.

01:30:23   Granted, that answer wasn't written in the documentation

01:30:25   where everyone can benefit from it.

01:30:26   It was sent to you individually

01:30:27   and then you posted it to Twitter.

01:30:29   So the system still sucks,

01:30:30   but this is another annoying situation

01:30:33   when dealing with any kind of platform.

01:30:35   Sometimes the functionality you want is deprecated

01:30:37   and there will never be a replacement.

01:30:39   I mean, in this case, I think there probably

01:30:40   will be a replacement eventually, but--

01:30:42   - No, I mean, in this case, my replacement was

01:30:44   I just dropped out of the UI kit and do it there

01:30:46   because it works perfectly fine there.

01:30:47   But that sucks.

01:30:48   And also, let's also be very clear here,

01:30:51   we all know the reason I finally got an answer

01:30:53   was because I was tweeting about it.

01:30:54   - Yeah, well, running to the press never helps.

01:30:56   - Right, right.

01:30:57   - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

01:30:58   - Yeah, and the system is broken in that way,

01:31:00   but I'm saying like the underlying situation

01:31:03   where the API you wanted to use is deprecated

01:31:05   and the replacement doesn't do the same thing.

01:31:06   Happens all the time, and it's just some crappy thing

01:31:08   that you have to deal with sometimes.

01:31:10   And you should file a bug against that to say,

01:31:12   a feature request for all the good that does it says,

01:31:14   look, I think there should be a non-deprecated way

01:31:16   to set the accent color for entire view hierarchies, right?

01:31:19   But things say deprecated for a long time.

01:31:21   Like even in my dinky apps,

01:31:23   they're full of warnings for deprecation,

01:31:24   which I wish I could silence.

01:31:25   I'm like, I know what I'm doing is deprecated.

01:31:28   I've tried the new way,

01:31:29   but it's different and worse in certain ways.

01:31:30   So I'm just gonna ride that deprecated thing

01:31:32   until they yank it from the OS,

01:31:33   and then I'll deal with it then.

01:31:35   I know they're there,

01:31:36   but there is no current non-deprecated equivalent

01:31:39   that does what I want it to do,

01:31:40   so I'll just keep using the deprecated one,

01:31:42   and I feel like that is a possible solution,

01:31:44   'cause how long is it gonna be deprecated?

01:31:46   For one release, for five, for 10?

01:31:48   Sometimes things say deprecated for a long,

01:31:49   and there's probably some like blanket policy for Apple.

01:31:52   - But that's such a code smell, though.

01:31:53   It's such a code smell. - It's crappy,

01:31:55   but like you don't control the platform.

01:31:57   Like you're riding against this platform, and--

01:32:00   - This platform is riding against us at this point.

01:32:02   Yeah, I think things think deprecated for a long time

01:32:04   is actually an advantage sometimes,

01:32:06   because they're like, well, if the old way keeps working,

01:32:08   then I'll just keep using it.

01:32:09   Same thing with UI kit workarounds.

01:32:10   That'll probably work for a long time,

01:32:11   that workaround that you did with using UI kit.

01:32:13   I don't think that's gonna go away anytime soon.

01:32:15   There's too many apps written in UI kit.

01:32:16   But the real request is, hey,

01:32:18   I think there should be a way to do this.

01:32:20   You made a new way, Xcode suggests it,

01:32:22   because it's equivalent when talking about a leaf node,

01:32:24   but it's not equivalent when setting it on a whole.

01:32:26   The UI hierarchy, Xcode doesn't know that,

01:32:27   documentation doesn't know that.

01:32:28   So these are all symptoms of Apple's crappy system

01:32:31   of not, you know, missing documentation,

01:32:34   incorrect documentation, the time it takes to communicate,

01:32:38   the fact that you have to be a high profile person

01:32:39   and complain on Twitter to get an answer.

01:32:42   I feel these frustrations, but you know,

01:32:44   some of them are in the end frustrating situations

01:32:47   that are gonna be frustrating no matter what,

01:32:49   exacerbated by all the things that we think

01:32:51   Apple should be doing better in terms of communication

01:32:53   and documentation.

01:32:55   - That's the thing is that if documentation was flawless,

01:32:58   which it is getting a little bit better

01:33:00   and I was told by a friend of the show, Sir Andy Caldwell,

01:33:03   that you can actually file a bug

01:33:05   against documentation explicitly and say,

01:33:08   "Oh, this documentation is broken, missing, et cetera."

01:33:11   It's getting better, but it's still garbage.

01:33:13   It is absolute garbage.

01:33:14   I found a workaround for an issue on Reddit once

01:33:18   that should be in the documentation.

01:33:20   It's such garbage.

01:33:21   And if the documentation was kind of perfect or near perfect

01:33:24   and the feedback system was broken, that sucks, but okay.

01:33:29   If the feedback system was perfect or near perfect,

01:33:32   but the documentation was broken,

01:33:34   no, that sucks in a different way, but okay.

01:33:37   But the fact that both are so fundamentally screwed

01:33:42   is what makes it just so demeaning and so awful.

01:33:47   I don't know, sometimes it's just really not fun

01:33:51   to work on Apple platforms.

01:33:52   And that's a real crappy place to be.

01:33:55   And I don't know if that's, again, maybe it's me.

01:33:56   Maybe the issue is me,

01:33:57   and I've been on this platform for so long,

01:33:59   even though I haven't done near as much work as like Marco, for example,

01:34:02   it's still something I've been working against for a long, long time.

01:34:04   Maybe I'm just bored of it. I don't know. I mean, but it's just, it's,

01:34:09   it's hostile.

01:34:10   It's hostile to us in ways that I don't think it has to be.

01:34:14   And it stinks that the only way for me to

01:34:19   find out information on the status of my bugs is to ask friends on the inside.

01:34:24   The only way for Marco to do it is to either do that or whine about it on

01:34:27   Twitter and like it is not fun for me or Marco to whine about it on Twitter. It is

01:34:32   not fun for me to go to friends on the inside with a pile of feedback

01:34:35   numbers and say "hey please please can you tell me if anything's happened with

01:34:39   this please thank you" like looking like puss in boots or something like that's

01:34:42   not fair to my friends like that's not fair to them they shouldn't have to be

01:34:46   the the voice of feedback because their entire feedback systems screwed but I

01:34:51   was looking at it you know and I have filed one two three four five six seven

01:34:55   different feedbacks this summer. I will put the feedback numbers in the show notes if

01:34:58   you happen to be an Apple employee. I have received literally no feedback on any of them.

01:35:05   None. And I get it. Like, they have more people writing more feedbacks than I can wrap my

01:35:11   head around. I get it. But that isn't my, well, what's your phrase, Marco? It's not

01:35:17   my fault, but it is my problem. But it shouldn't be my problem. Like, there should be, if this

01:35:24   system is as broken as it seems to be, then guess what? Maybe we should find a

01:35:30   different system. And I don't know what that is exactly, but every time I rant

01:35:35   about this either on ATP or on Twitter or what have you, I always get people

01:35:39   from like every other platform, Android, Microsoft, anything, and they're like "Oh

01:35:45   wow, that really sucks. I can't imagine having to work like that. Here's what we

01:35:48   do. Oh, the bug tracker is all in the open and blah blah blah blah blah." Like SWF's,

01:35:51   for example. It's just this is all fundamentally broken and it's just not

01:35:56   it's not fair I don't think but I think and that's I guess opinion but also

01:36:02   maybe also opinion but to me it's just it's just not fun it's just not fun to

01:36:06   be fighting against the frameworks constantly and if you're not fighting

01:36:10   against the frameworks you're fighting against feedback if you're not fighting against

01:36:12   feedback you're fighting against documentation. Don't forget AppReview.

01:36:14   And don't forget AppReview that's true and if you're not fighting against those

01:36:17   you're fighting against AppReview it's just can we can we get a break on one of

01:36:21   these pillars, please? Can any one of these pillars not be made of sand? Because that

01:36:24   would be amazing.

01:36:25   >> It makes you feel any better. I think part of my 20 mumble years of being a web developer

01:36:32   has conditioned me for this because the experience for doing web development, let's say you're

01:36:38   midway through your career and you're doing an important feature for a website. Of course,

01:36:43   for your website, you don't control what web browsers people use and you run into a book.

01:36:47   version of this browser has this bug and you're in the same situation we just described.

01:36:52   Is this intended behavior?

01:36:53   This changed since the last version.

01:36:55   Is it supposed to work the new way or the old way?

01:36:57   Should I do a workaround?

01:36:58   Is there a workaround?

01:36:59   What should I do?

01:37:00   If you think it's difficult to get any kind of answer out of Apple about the intended

01:37:03   behavior of framework, try getting an answer out of Microsoft as an individual web developer

01:37:07   on a dinky little website somewhere that's trying to write some JavaScript that just

01:37:11   broke in the latest version of Internet Explorer that is rolling out to all your customers

01:37:14   right now.

01:37:15   See if you can get them to tell you,

01:37:17   is this intended behavior?

01:37:18   Is there a workaround?

01:37:19   Can you look at my sample project?

01:37:21   You have no way to get any response from them,

01:37:25   so much so that it's just completely hopeless.

01:37:27   You don't even entertain the idea

01:37:29   that you're going to somehow file

01:37:31   a bug against Internet Explorer and get the answer in time

01:37:33   for your release this Friday.

01:37:36   I'm not saying this is a good system.

01:37:37   It's bad.

01:37:38   But writing on top of any platform

01:37:41   is always going to have frustrations like this.

01:37:43   And yes, it is the job of companies

01:37:45   like Apple that in theory pride themselves

01:37:47   on being more responsive than Microsoft would be

01:37:51   to an individual developer at a 10 person company

01:37:53   writing them an email in 2005, right?

01:37:55   And I think they are slightly more responsive than that,

01:37:59   but not much.

01:38:00   In case of your comparison to equivalent platforms

01:38:02   is really where Apple should be looking.

01:38:04   How much more frustrating is it to be an Apple developer

01:38:06   than to be an Android developer for writing phone apps?

01:38:09   That is a pretty direct comparison.

01:38:11   Apple should measure itself against that,

01:38:13   but more importantly,

01:38:14   Apple should measure it against its ideals,

01:38:15   and its ideals, I think, are that it should be much better

01:38:18   than it is in all of these areas.

01:38:20   - Yeah, it's just, I'm sorry for getting angry,

01:38:23   but it's just so frickin' frustrating.

01:38:25   It's so frustrating.

01:38:27   All right, let's do some Ask ATP,

01:38:30   and let's start this week with Christopher Anderson,

01:38:32   who writes, "Do you have any recommendations on domain name

01:38:35   and IP address management for home network devices?

01:38:38   I've been adding more hardware to my home networks,

01:38:40   such as a Synology, Homebridge, Raspberry Pi,

01:38:43   network AV receiver, et cetera.

01:38:46   Connecting these devices using an IP address

01:38:48   always feels janky.

01:38:49   It's tough to remember the IP,

01:38:50   you can get certificate warnings, et cetera.

01:38:52   Using a hostname and a .loc local suffix

01:38:55   is hit or miss as well.

01:38:57   Any suggestions on a cleaner way

01:38:58   of addressing devices on a homeland?

01:39:01   So I have a few thoughts on this.

01:39:02   First of all, if you run my beloved pie hole,

01:39:04   hey Marco, if you have a pie hole,

01:39:07   then you can set up local DNS in that.

01:39:09   The only problem though,

01:39:10   is that if you are running any other DNS servers

01:39:13   concurrently with the pie hole.

01:39:15   I've learned recently that no matter what order

01:39:19   DNS servers are in, that doesn't mean anything.

01:39:21   Like DNS, the Mac OS and I think iOS considers

01:39:26   any of the DNS servers in your DNS server list

01:39:28   to be an appropriate server for any of your requests.

01:39:32   So it doesn't go from the top and work its way down.

01:39:35   It just kind of splurts across all of them,

01:39:38   which is news to me.

01:39:39   So that may or may not be useful

01:39:40   because if you run other like backup DNS server,

01:39:43   then you wouldn't--the high hole may or may not get the query to the host name you want.

01:39:48   So, tread carefully. There is a future sponsor, TailScale, which I have a lot of thoughts

01:39:53   about and they're very, very cool. They have not sponsored yet but they are on the books

01:39:57   to sponsor in the future, so, you know, take this with a grain of salt. But I have been

01:40:02   dabbling with TailScale and really, really like it. I really honestly do. And one of

01:40:05   the nice things about TailScale is it's--everyone--or at least I thought it was a VPN and it kind

01:40:11   of is, but that's not exactly what it's for. What Tailscale is really good at is saying,

01:40:16   no matter where your devices are, no matter what network or networks they're on, anything

01:40:21   that is connected to Tailscale, you will always be able to connect to anything else connected

01:40:25   to Tailscale. So I could be at home connecting to other home servers. I could be at a, not

01:40:31   a park bench, mind you, John, but a picnic table connected to Tailscale and connect to

01:40:34   my servers at home. I can be anywhere. And as long as I'm on Tailscale and my other devices

01:40:38   are on Tailscale, then I can connect to them,

01:40:40   and that allows host names as well.

01:40:43   So that is what I would recommend for host names.

01:40:45   With regard to certificate management, I've got nothing.

01:40:48   Channels does it all automagically for you,

01:40:49   which is kind of cool, but I don't have any good answers

01:40:52   with regard to that.

01:40:53   Marco, since you're probably near death

01:40:56   with regard to your voice,

01:40:56   do you have any thoughts on any of this?

01:40:58   - I actually don't really have these problems

01:41:01   because I don't really need to refer

01:41:03   to my local network devices that often.

01:41:05   Part of that's 'cause I don't have

01:41:06   as many network devices as you guys do.

01:41:08   Like I use a Synology, but I hardly ever need to access it

01:41:13   via host name or IP address.

01:41:15   I usually, like I have a file share on it,

01:41:18   and it just shows up in my finder list on the sidebar there,

01:41:22   and I just click it there.

01:41:23   If I occasionally have to log in to the Synology,

01:41:28   I actually am not even sure how to do that right now,

01:41:30   'cause I just use that quickconnect.to thing that sets up.

01:41:33   - Yeah, yeah.

01:41:34   - I just use that, which works every time.

01:41:35   And other than that, the only other thing I ever need

01:41:37   to maybe log into is my Ubiquiti unified network,

01:41:42   and that's just, you know, one and two, one, six, eight,

01:41:43   one, one, so I don't need to know a host name for that.

01:41:47   So I don't really have this problem,

01:41:49   so I actually don't have a solution for it.

01:41:51   My solution is don't have your problem,

01:41:53   which is kind of, this is how I should respond

01:41:55   to their bug report, saying, look, you're doing it wrong,

01:41:57   and in fact, it's your fault that this is broken,

01:41:59   and really, this is all you,

01:42:02   and I won't document that anywhere.

01:42:04   - Yeah, too soon.

01:42:05   Also, I should mention, it didn't even occur to me

01:42:07   until just now, but you could also use a host file

01:42:08   to do this.

01:42:09   So a host file, and I'm probably gonna butcher

01:42:11   the description, but it's a file in, what is it,

01:42:12   /etc/hosts, and basically what you do is you write

01:42:16   a line item for an IP address and what host name

01:42:18   you would like to use to refer to that IP address,

01:42:20   and any reasonable operating system will parse

01:42:25   the host file and try that before it tries

01:42:27   any external DNS servers.

01:42:28   So that won't work for iOS very well, or iPadOS,

01:42:30   but it would work for your Mac or PC or what have you.

01:42:33   - What is the Quick Connect thing?

01:42:34   I think I used it when I first set up my Synology,

01:42:36   I mean, not since then.

01:42:37   What is the actual mechanism to do that?

01:42:39   - So you set it up in the Synology's control panel,

01:42:42   and what it does is it basically heartbeats

01:42:44   to Synology servers and says,

01:42:46   "Oh, I'm at IP address,

01:42:49   "except it's your external IP."

01:42:50   That was a terrible example, I'm sorry.

01:42:52   It's whatever your external IP is.

01:42:54   And so then what that does,

01:42:56   and I believe it'll do the proxying thing

01:42:59   where even if you don't expose ports on your router,

01:43:03   if you go to Synology's QuickNet.2,

01:43:06   whatever your particular Quick Connect account is.

01:43:08   - When you say that, what is that?

01:43:10   You type what into the address bar of your browser?

01:43:12   - You type quickconnect.to,

01:43:14   and then whatever you specified as your--

01:43:17   - .to? - Yes, .to.

01:43:18   - Quickconnect period to.

01:43:20   And oh, to is the top level domain name?

01:43:22   - Correct. - Yeah.

01:43:23   - And then your particular--

01:43:24   - And it's like slash your Synology name.

01:43:26   - And then it figures out what IP you're coming from

01:43:28   and does the look up and--

01:43:29   - Yeah, it's like a DNS relay kind of thing.

01:43:30   - Okay, all right, okay.

01:43:32   I don't even know about that except,

01:43:33   like I said, I think I probably did it in 2013

01:43:35   when I first set up my Synology.

01:43:36   - I don't think it was available then.

01:43:37   - No, and now, when I set mine up,

01:43:39   whatever it was last year or earlier this year,

01:43:41   whenever that was, when I set mine up,

01:43:43   it defaults to bringing you through that

01:43:45   and setting that up for you.

01:43:46   I used to do the regular setup wizard

01:43:47   and that was part of it.

01:43:48   - All right, so what I do for that is,

01:43:51   for my Synology in particular,

01:43:53   Synology also has a free service

01:43:54   where they will give you a domain name for your Synology.

01:43:58   And so it's like whatever name I picked, .synology.me,

01:44:03   And that will do dynamic DNS with--

01:44:05   the Synology will occasionally chime in and say,

01:44:07   here's what IP address I'm at or whatever.

01:44:09   So that's one convenient way to do it.

01:44:12   I do have in my host file from back in the day

01:44:15   the name of my Synology.local for the .local things.

01:44:19   .local is used for the Bonjour, Rendezvous, whatever DNS

01:44:23   domain in Mac OS.

01:44:25   But you can also just define .local ones.

01:44:28   I also also--

01:44:30   I know this doesn't help you with naming,

01:44:32   but this is one of the things I do.

01:44:34   From back in the day with my airport extreme,

01:44:36   I assign static IP addresses to my internal things.

01:44:39   You're, you're

01:44:42   based on the MAC address of the ethernet interface, right?

01:44:45   So my sonology is always 10.0.1.whatever,

01:44:49   my second sonology, and I memorize those numbers

01:44:51   'cause there's not that many of them.

01:44:52   This is not a solution to naming,

01:44:53   I'm just saying this is the thing I do.

01:44:54   It is surprisingly convenient.

01:44:56   Some things, like the HD home run that I just got,

01:44:59   I didn't do anything for this,

01:45:00   But if I go to hdhomerun.local, that's my HD home run.

01:45:04   So it advertises itself as that.

01:45:06   I don't know what happened if I had two of them.

01:45:08   Maybe it would put a number after or whatever.

01:45:09   But I didn't have to do a thing for that.

01:45:11   It just does the rendezvous advertisement.

01:45:14   Super convenient.

01:45:15   If I didn't do that, I could just go--

01:45:17   if you go to your channel server,

01:45:19   it will tell you the IP address of the HD home run.

01:45:21   You can go do it that way, whatever.

01:45:22   I have never gotten to the point where I'm like,

01:45:24   I'm going to run my own DNS.

01:45:26   That is the correct solution to doing custom naming for things.

01:45:29   But I've always had some simpler, jankier way to do it.

01:45:33   Memorize the IP, put something in etsyhost,

01:45:35   use a service that comes for free with your NAS

01:45:37   to come up with a domain name or whatever.

01:45:40   I've always done, I even have a free dynamic domain name

01:45:43   for a dynamic DNS service for one of the other things

01:45:47   that I signed up for ages ago.

01:45:49   I just keep doing it that way and it's fine.

01:45:52   And even though I have more devices than Marco,

01:45:53   there's not that many.

01:45:54   And everything I have subscribed

01:45:55   to all those weird workarounds covers it all.

01:45:58   But if you really want to solve this problem once and all,

01:46:00   you could run your own DNS.

01:46:01   But running your own DNS is,

01:46:03   it's not a formula for sadness, but it's close.

01:46:05   Because now you're running your own DNS.

01:46:08   Now you've got to be careful about things.

01:46:09   Now you've got to make sure everything is resolving.

01:46:11   Oh, is my streaming slow

01:46:13   because I'm connecting to the wrong thing?

01:46:14   Am I, you know, even something as simple

01:46:16   as changing your DNS server to

01:46:19   or or those things, whatever, can mess you up.

01:46:22   So once you enter the realm of DNS,

01:46:24   then you may find yourself in the situation

01:46:27   where you start to be able to understand

01:46:29   and relate to the technology meme

01:46:31   that you will see on Twitter very often,

01:46:33   which is, it's always DNS.

01:46:34   What's the problem?

01:46:35   Why did the service go down?

01:46:36   Why is S3 down?

01:46:37   Why did this thing get hacked?

01:46:38   Why did this happen?

01:46:39   No, it's always DNS.

01:46:40   It's not always DNS, but sometimes it feels that way.

01:46:42   So I would caution against that.

01:46:44   And I would say, try using the other methods.

01:46:47   Again, like in the case of HD home run,

01:46:49   I didn't have to do anything.

01:46:50   And there's a name that I can look it up with,

01:46:51   and I didn't have to memorize any IPs.

01:46:54   Just take that victory and go with it

01:46:55   and just type HDR room.local.

01:46:57   For other things, try a host file.

01:46:59   If you want it to be accessible everywhere,

01:47:01   I mean, even something like tail scale may be easier

01:47:04   than setting up and running your own DNS.

01:47:06   If you're doing it already for a pie hole,

01:47:07   then you've already bitten that off and so have fun.

01:47:09   But I have not decided to undertake that task.

01:47:13   I just get by with my sort of

01:47:14   MOLLE collection of techniques.

01:47:16   - Fair enough.

01:47:18   Carlos Quintela writes, "My wife is due in October.

01:47:19   Congratulations with her first child.

01:47:21   And we also had fertility challenges.

01:47:23   So thanks for speaking about those, Casey."

01:47:24   You are welcome.

01:47:25   I'm glad to hear that that has worked out.

01:47:27   I am starting to get a little overwhelmed, right, Carlos?

01:47:29   Any words of advice, things you wish you had done,

01:47:31   arranged, or thought about earlier,

01:47:33   both tech and non-tech related.

01:47:35   This could go on for approximately 35 years,

01:47:38   but I will try to be brief about it.

01:47:41   I think there's a lot that could be said and can be done,

01:47:44   but ultimately, no matter how much you prepare,

01:47:48   it really is true and it's so frustrating to hear it,

01:47:50   but no matter how much you prepare,

01:47:52   there is nothing that will prepare you for your first child.

01:47:55   There's nothing you can do.

01:47:56   Like this is going to completely destroy your world

01:48:00   in all the best and worst ways.

01:48:01   And that's okay, that's fine.

01:48:03   But some specific things that I would advocate,

01:48:07   when you are on your way to the hospital,

01:48:09   if either of you is even the slightest bit hungry,

01:48:13   eat something, eat something right then.

01:48:15   Because if you are going the route of having an,

01:48:17   or if your spouse is going the route

01:48:18   of having an epidural,

01:48:19   then they can't eat once the epidural is in.

01:48:22   You probably won't have the time, inclination,

01:48:24   ability to eat once you're at the hospital, eat on the way. Once you're in the hospital, particularly

01:48:29   after the baby is born, take advantage of the nurses. That baby doesn't need to sleep with you

01:48:33   that night. That's just my two cents, but they don't need to sleep with you that night. They'll

01:48:36   be fine in the nursery. You need to get a little bit of sleep while you can because there ain't

01:48:40   none coming for the next oh six to 50 weeks. I don't know. So take advantage of the nurses in

01:48:45   the hospital. They'll do what you want them to do. If you want to bring the baby in when it's

01:48:49   time to feed, they'll bring the baby in. But one way or another, take advantage of the nurses. Ask

01:48:53   ask them questions. They've heard everything. They've heard all the dumb questions, all

01:48:57   the smart questions, ask them questions. Be present, be there. It's something I work on

01:49:01   every day. I'm not great about it, but I need to be better about it. I'm trying every single

01:49:04   day. Something Erin and I found was that early on I would wake in solidarity with her because

01:49:10   we breastfed or she breastfed Declan and did with Mikayla as long as she could before Mikayla

01:49:16   had some allergy issues. I at first would wake up and just kind of be awake with her

01:49:21   just to show like, "Hey, I'm doing this with you. I'm here." And we quickly realized that was really stupid.

01:49:26   Like, if anyone can sleep. If anyone can sleep, sleep. That's the best recommendation I have.

01:49:31   If anyone is capable of sleeping, I don't care who it is, sleep.

01:49:34   If you have any inclination to get a good camera and to find good however you want, now is the time to do it.

01:49:41   I am so incredibly glad that I bought the Micro Four Thirds camera that I bought before Declan was born.

01:49:47   I don't use it that often anymore, and I actually find that it's only...

01:49:52   I personally think it's only better than the iPhone in natural light, so I don't

01:49:56   ever reach for it when I'm inside a building. But that being said,

01:50:00   if you want a good camera, now's the time to do it. And I would expect that

01:50:04   Marco and John's fancy cameras would probably do much better inside than mine does.

01:50:07   And then something that was useful for me, and I think it's because Aaron and I are both

01:50:11   super type A and may or may not be useful for you,

01:50:14   is getting some sort of an app that tracks what the baby is doing,

01:50:18   especially early on. You kind of have to know how often they're peeing, how often they're pooping, etc.

01:50:21   I used or we used Baby Connect, which

01:50:25   is hideously ugly, just hilariously ugly,

01:50:28   but extremely powerful and is really good at being quick and easy to track things.

01:50:33   I also like this for when I went back to work with Declan in particular

01:50:37   because, you know, Aaron would say, oh, the baby, would mark in the app, oh, the baby went down

01:50:41   and then would mark when the baby woke up.

01:50:43   And that would be a really good indication as to how,

01:50:47   just completely frazzled Aaron will be

01:50:48   when I get home from work.

01:50:49   Because if Declan has only slept for 20 minutes,

01:50:52   which was not unusual for him,

01:50:53   then she's gonna be in need of assistance.

01:50:56   Whereas if he somehow powered out,

01:50:58   dropped it like hour and a half nap,

01:50:59   which was very rare for him, if ever,

01:51:01   then she'll be okay when I come home.

01:51:02   And so that was useful for us,

01:51:05   may not be useful for you and that's totally fine.

01:51:08   Oh, and finally, lean on the people around you.

01:51:11   Your natural inclination,

01:51:13   or at least if you're anything like me and Aaron,

01:51:15   was to like, what is it, circle the wagons,

01:51:18   that's a turn of phrase I'm looking for,

01:51:19   circle the wagons and like,

01:51:20   just the two of you will take care of this,

01:51:22   no one get near us, we will handle this,

01:51:24   granted we're about to keel over from exhaustion,

01:51:27   but we'll take care of it, everyone leave us alone.

01:51:29   Don't do that, don't do that.

01:51:31   If somebody wants to bring you food,

01:51:32   let them bring you food.

01:51:33   Somebody wants to come over and do laundry,

01:51:34   let them do your laundry.

01:51:35   I don't care how embarrassing it is,

01:51:36   let them do your laundry.

01:51:37   If they wanna do anything,

01:51:39   if they wanna take the baby from you while you go upstairs

01:51:41   and do anything but baby stuff, let them do it.

01:51:45   Rely on people, take people at what they offer.

01:51:49   Whenever somebody offers anything,

01:51:50   the correct answer is, yes please, I'd love that.

01:51:52   That's all I've got.

01:51:54   - That was great.

01:51:55   Did you write that down first?

01:51:56   - No, I didn't.

01:51:57   I mean, I had a couple of bullets in the show notes,

01:51:59   but that was most of it.

01:52:00   - That's amazing, yeah.

01:52:01   So Casey covered pretty much all the big highlights

01:52:04   that you're gonna deal with.

01:52:05   I mean, raising a kid in general over the next 18 years

01:52:11   plus more, hopefully, there's lots of things

01:52:14   to address there and you'll pick it up as you go.

01:52:18   And we can cover that in larger questions down the road.

01:52:22   But for the initial needs of a baby is coming,

01:52:25   yeah, I think Casey covered it well,

01:52:28   it's going to put a lot of stress on you,

01:52:31   physically and mentally,

01:52:33   and on the baby's mother, your wife.

01:52:36   And so this is going to be a hard time for you,

01:52:41   for your relationship, for your household, for your family.

01:52:47   And there's lots of upsides,

01:52:48   and so just be prepared for those downsides

01:52:51   and try to do whatever you can to support each other,

01:52:55   to believe in each other,

01:52:57   to give each other the benefit of the doubt,

01:52:59   to recognize that there's gonna be a lot of times coming up

01:53:02   where one or both of you is gonna be really grumpy

01:53:05   because you're not gonna be getting a lot of sleep

01:53:06   and you're gonna be really tired and really frustrated

01:53:09   and it's going to push all of your buttons that exist.

01:53:12   Especially what infants do is,

01:53:17   they are biologically designed to push all of your buttons

01:53:20   so that you keep giving them everything they need.

01:53:22   And so it's a strain, it is a big strain.

01:53:25   And going to it and knowing that's going to be the case

01:53:29   and supporting each other as best as you possibly can

01:53:31   and whatever that means for the two of you

01:53:35   And that could be a lot of things,

01:53:36   that could be things like you take over,

01:53:39   like you as the father,

01:53:43   for a while you can't really feed the baby.

01:53:45   But you can do other supporting roles.

01:53:48   So anything you need to support the mother

01:53:52   for the things that you can't do,

01:53:53   you can support her and those things.

01:53:55   And everything that you can do, just do it.

01:53:58   You can be the diaper parent.

01:53:59   You change every single frickin' diaper.

01:54:01   Like whatever it is, you do what you can to support her

01:54:05   to support the baby. If either or both of you might want to consider therapy afterwards,

01:54:12   that also can be very beneficial and oftentimes very necessary. Leave all of these options

01:54:17   on the table because again, it's a big strain on everybody in this time period and so just

01:54:23   do your best to support each other and realize that you're in this together and you're

01:54:31   building this family together. And so all the hard parts are worth it in the end. So

01:54:35   you got to just get through the hard parts and be there for each other and again, give

01:54:40   each other the benefit of the doubt as much as possible and support each other.

01:54:43   Trenton Larkin Yep, well put. And another one that I just

01:54:45   thought of, my brother-in-law and his wife actually just had their first and something

01:54:51   that occurred to me is, and I'm really in no position to talk about this, but everything

01:54:56   I've ever understood from almost any mother I've ever spoken to is that nobody really tells you that breastfeeding is

01:55:02   Not easy. It is not easy and it's painful from what I understand

01:55:06   So it is completely normal and maybe not healthy

01:55:11   but like

01:55:12   Normal for the child and the mom to just not get the whole breastfeeding thing squared away for like the first few days

01:55:18   If not week or two, that is totally normal

01:55:20   The mom is well if she's anything like Erin and I'm almost any woman I've ever spoken to about this will immediately blame them

01:55:26   themselves and be like, "Oh, I'm not doing this right. It must be something I'm doing

01:55:29   wrong." It's just, it's hard. And nobody ever tells you how hard it is. It's friggin' hard,

01:55:34   and from what Aaron has told me and other moms have spoken to, friggin' hurts, especially in

01:55:38   the beginning. So that is completely normal and complete—well, again, I shouldn't say it's okay,

01:55:43   but for lack of a better way to say it, it's okay. So anyway, sorry, John.

01:55:46   Wait, one more thing too. Like, I often, you know, when, you know, when our kid is upset about

01:55:50   something. He'll often, as many people do, he might say something kind of hastily like,

01:55:58   "I'm never going back there again," because something bad happened somewhere. And I always

01:56:04   repeat to him, "Look, we don't make decisions or proclamations about the future when you're upset."

01:56:11   So when you're like, "Oh, I'm never going back there again," well, you literally just had a bad

01:56:17   experience somewhere, this is not the time to say, "In the future, I'm never going

01:56:21   to do this thing again." Keep in mind that during this first few months especially, you're

01:56:28   going to be in a very fragile state for a lot of that time, just because of things like

01:56:33   lack of sleep and a lot of stress and stuff like that. And your wife is going to be, her

01:56:38   body has to recover, her mind has to go through a lot of this stuff, and this is heavy stuff.

01:56:44   So again, as part of the giving each other the benefit of the doubt constantly and supporting

01:56:49   each other thing, also keep in mind that this, all of that stress and challenges of the body

01:56:57   and mind are temporary and things will, you'll have different challenges down the road as

01:57:03   the kid gets older, but the infant stuff, that's really, that's a temporary thing and

01:57:08   that's like an extreme version of the challenges.

01:57:11   And so keep in mind that whatever you're feeling

01:57:14   during this time, it's temporary,

01:57:17   you're right in the middle of it,

01:57:19   and don't make any major proclamations or decisions

01:57:24   when you're in that time,

01:57:26   because you're gonna be very sleep deprived

01:57:28   and just very drained for a lot of that time.

01:57:31   And so just get through it, support each other

01:57:35   as best you can, and see you on the other side.

01:57:38   - Yeah, Jon.

01:57:40   As you said, there's nothing you can do to prepare for it.

01:57:42   And in many ways, that is very true,

01:57:43   because it's kind of one of those things where,

01:57:45   no matter how much you read about it,

01:57:47   until you experience it,

01:57:47   you don't really know what you're in for.

01:57:48   But one of the important things you could do

01:57:50   in terms of preparation is

01:57:53   kind of like get okay with the concept

01:57:59   that things, well, all right,

01:58:05   so there's societal pressure

01:58:08   for surrounding parenthood, right?

01:58:11   And you are, in case you're touching this

01:58:14   with the breastfeeding thing,

01:58:15   both of you are going to feel ways

01:58:18   that you think you quote unquote shouldn't feel, right?

01:58:21   You're going, at various points you're gonna say,

01:58:23   I hate this baby, and then you're gonna feel guilty.

01:58:26   You're gonna feel guilty because I'm not supposed

01:58:27   to hate my baby.

01:58:28   What kind of good parent hates their baby, right?

01:58:31   This is what you should prepare for.

01:58:33   The cognitive dissonance of feelings

01:58:35   that you absolutely will have

01:58:37   that you also at the same time think are bad or wrong.

01:58:40   Because that can eat you up,

01:58:44   that can make everything so much worse.

01:58:46   You can spend a lot of time beating yourself up

01:58:48   about the fact that I don't love my baby,

01:58:51   I shouldn't be hating this.

01:58:52   Like you're beating yourself up

01:58:54   about feelings that you're having.

01:58:55   Now, the flip side of this is,

01:59:00   this doesn't mean ignore all the bad things you're having.

01:59:02   So to give one example, if breastfeeding is painful,

01:59:06   talk to a lactation consultant,

01:59:07   Do not say, "Well, it's just supposed to be painful there, it'll be fine."

01:59:10   It shouldn't, in the ideal case, be painful, but it can be, and if it is, there are things

01:59:15   you can do to try to help it.

01:59:17   And it could be that you may just have to not breastfeed, but don't make that decision,

01:59:20   to Marco's point, don't make that decision on your own based on your guilt about not

01:59:24   doing it and the fact that it is painful.

01:59:27   Find help.

01:59:28   There's an actual job called lactation consultant that they do this, and if you can't find one

01:59:33   or can't afford one, find someone who has breastfed or whatever.

01:59:36   And in terms of the like preparing for you feeling bad, and part of that is having somebody

01:59:43   in your life who you can talk to about your bad feelings.

01:59:46   So right there, that's a pretty high bar.

01:59:48   Who do you want to tell that you hate your baby?

01:59:49   You probably are going to feel comfortable telling your mom that you hate your baby,

01:59:54   right?

01:59:55   Same thing with like, "Oh, breastfeeding is painful.

01:59:57   I don't know who to turn to.

01:59:58   I don't know where lactation consultant is.

02:00:00   I can't afford one on my brain space and others.

02:00:02   Who should I talk to about it?"

02:00:04   You may think, "I'll talk to my mom.

02:00:05   She breastfed.

02:00:06   of advice to me, it depends on your mom.

02:00:09   Maybe your mom will be awesome and give you great advice

02:00:11   and walk you through it.

02:00:12   Or maybe your mom will be like, I don't remember

02:00:13   but I think it was fine for me and it should be fine for you

02:00:15   and you have a weird relationship with your mom

02:00:17   and it just makes you feel worse.

02:00:18   So you have to have someone sane, who isn't sleep deprived,

02:00:22   so probably not your spouse, to sanity check

02:00:26   what you're doing.

02:00:27   Because you're gonna feel awful

02:00:28   and it's gonna feel terrible.

02:00:30   But then also, you have to know, yeah,

02:00:33   but is that just like the heart of being an infant

02:00:35   or is there something wrong, right?

02:00:37   Or is there something I can do about this?

02:00:38   And it's so hard to know when you're in the middle of it,

02:00:40   especially when you add in the guilt.

02:00:42   Is this a bad thing that I should just power through,

02:00:45   or is this a bad thing that needs to be addressed?

02:00:46   You will not be able to make that call on your own

02:00:49   because your brain will be so scrambled

02:00:51   and you've never heard a kid before and you don't know.

02:00:53   And that's why it's so important to have someone

02:00:55   somewhere in your life who is not the Google search box

02:00:58   that you feel comfortable talking to about these things

02:01:01   and will give you an honest answer.

02:01:03   And very often, unfortunately, that is not our parents.

02:01:06   For a variety of reasons that are too complicated

02:01:08   to go into.

02:01:09   Also the fact that they had kids a long time ago.

02:01:11   There are people who do this for a living.

02:01:13   There are friends who may be closer to your age

02:01:14   who have done this more recently.

02:01:16   Find someone that you trust to talk about this.

02:01:17   Because what you don't want to do is say,

02:01:19   I heard it on a podcast, it's gonna be really hard.

02:01:20   Therefore, anything that bad happens,

02:01:22   I'll just shut my mouth about it and say,

02:01:23   well, it's just supposed to be hard to deal with it.

02:01:25   And I know this is not really good advice.

02:01:28   I'm telling you it's gonna be hard.

02:01:29   But if it's too hard, something might be wrong,

02:01:31   so find out.

02:01:32   But that's what makes it hard, right?

02:01:35   So you can do that ahead of time.

02:01:36   You can think about, while you're not sleep deprived,

02:01:40   you and your spouse, who will we be able to talk to

02:01:43   that we can trust?

02:01:44   Should we find a lactation consultant now

02:01:47   while the baby is safely ensconced

02:01:48   in some inside of another human being?

02:01:50   It's so much easier to deal with that baby inside there.

02:01:53   Despite all the terrible things

02:01:55   that are having to do with pregnancy

02:01:56   that your wife will be able to fill you in on

02:01:57   if you're interested in,

02:01:58   it's worse when the baby comes out, right?

02:02:00   And the final thing I'll say is

02:02:02   If part of managing the guilty feelings about the feeling,

02:02:05   you know, like feeling bad about your feelings,

02:02:07   part of managing that is so that you will find yourself

02:02:10   able to enjoy the good moments.

02:02:12   Because there will be good moments,

02:02:13   even with the worst infant, when it smiles at you

02:02:16   and makes a funny burp, when it's comfortably napping

02:02:19   on your chest and you're watching TV.

02:02:20   You will have these moments.

02:02:22   And if you are spending all that time feeling bad

02:02:26   about how you don't love your baby the right way,

02:02:28   you will miss them.

02:02:29   Don't miss them.

02:02:30   So the preparation is like set up those supports,

02:02:34   think about them when you have the same brain,

02:02:35   be prepared for the fact that you're going to feel things

02:02:37   that you think you shouldn't feel

02:02:39   and practice sort of getting past that

02:02:42   so you can successfully be in the moment

02:02:44   to enjoy the good parts

02:02:45   because there are good parts to having an infant, right?

02:02:48   And they get even better as the kid gets older

02:02:49   and everything and you want to be able to enjoy them

02:02:52   and that will really help you get through all of this.

02:02:54   And finally, like Margo said,

02:02:57   postpartum depression is a thing

02:02:58   And it can be difficult even to just be a father

02:03:01   in this situation.

02:03:02   Do not be afraid to ask for supports.

02:03:05   There are people, again, mental health professionals,

02:03:07   or whoever, who can help you while you are having a baby.

02:03:09   It is not a failure of you as a parent,

02:03:11   it is not a failure of your child.

02:03:14   That's something that you should have sort of lined up.

02:03:17   You may not need it, but if you do,

02:03:19   don't feel guilty about needing it,

02:03:20   there's no guilt about it.

02:03:21   It can be helpful and you should definitely seek it out.

02:03:25   If you spend all your time feeling bad about it

02:03:27   and then feeling even worse that you're considering

02:03:29   having this thing, like I shouldn't need therapy,

02:03:31   my parents didn't need therapy to raise me,

02:03:32   what am I even doing?

02:03:34   Don't have that attitude.

02:03:35   I know this sounds all grim and terrifying

02:03:36   and if you've never had a kid you're like,

02:03:37   why would anyone have a kid, this sounds awful.

02:03:40   We just, I just feel like it's the thing

02:03:42   that no one prepared me for.

02:03:43   Because everything that I heard and read from people

02:03:45   is like, oh you're having a kid that's so wonderful,

02:03:47   it's gonna be so great,

02:03:48   'cause that's what we're all conditioned to do.

02:03:50   But I feel like as engineers,

02:03:51   all having gone through this,

02:03:53   we're telling you what, like,

02:03:55   the things that other people won't tell you about it,

02:03:57   I mean, I guess if you all listen to parenting podcasts,

02:03:59   you're probably here all the time.

02:03:59   But on a tech podcast, you probably say, oh, it's great.

02:04:02   You're having a baby.

02:04:03   It'd be so fun for you.

02:04:04   There are hard parts, too.

02:04:06   And the more you can get yourself

02:04:10   right with how it's going to be hard, again,

02:04:12   in a balanced way.

02:04:13   Do not ignore problems that might actually be problems,

02:04:15   but also don't expect everything to be wonderful.

02:04:18   I don't know if we're being helpful or just scaring people

02:04:20   away from having babies.

02:04:21   But it seems like people keep having them no matter what.

02:04:23   So I think somehow the system might work.

02:04:25   - Well, I would also say on the therapy front,

02:04:28   like as you mentioned, John, on the therapy front,

02:04:31   there's common wisdom out there that

02:04:33   if you get in a car accident,

02:04:35   like suppose you're rear-ended or something,

02:04:38   a lot of people say, you know what,

02:04:38   you should go to the hospital just to get your neck

02:04:40   and shoulders and stuff checked out just in case,

02:04:43   you probably have something there that could be worked on

02:04:46   or at least monitored.

02:04:48   And certainly if you actually do have any kind of injuries,

02:04:50   you should get them looked at and work on them.

02:04:55   work on them somehow, address them.

02:04:57   No one says that about mental stuff.

02:05:00   When you're going through this massive change in your life

02:05:03   that can be very emotional and very stressful,

02:05:07   no one says, "Hey, you know what?

02:05:09   "Even if you don't think you need therapy,

02:05:12   "why don't you go get checked out?

02:05:14   "Go have a few sessions just to talk through some stuff

02:05:16   "and just see, even if you don't think you need it."

02:05:18   No one ever says that.

02:05:20   We probably should.

02:05:21   There's a lot going on here.

02:05:25   when you go through major life events,

02:05:27   whether they are things like having a child,

02:05:30   or maybe losses, like somebody passes away,

02:05:34   you're getting divorced or whatever.

02:05:35   There's so many instances in life

02:05:37   where this is a major shift

02:05:39   that's gonna put a lot of stress on you.

02:05:41   It's a very emotional, challenging time in certain ways.

02:05:46   Go to therapy.

02:05:47   Why not?

02:05:48   Go for a couple of sessions if you don't think you need to.

02:05:50   Just go for a couple of sessions just to see.

02:05:52   even that can be helpful in some way.

02:05:55   Get checked out.

02:05:56   Like, we don't do that as a society,

02:05:59   but I think we really should.

02:06:01   - That's an example of having a person

02:06:03   who will be able to tell you the sanity check.

02:06:07   Like, 'cause again, when you're in it,

02:06:08   you're not gonna be able to tell,

02:06:10   is what I'm feeling within parameters

02:06:12   that should be expected, or is there something wrong?

02:06:14   It's so difficult to tell that about yourself.

02:06:17   So a therapist is an example of one person

02:06:19   who will hopefully be able to give you the perspective

02:06:21   that you aren't able to have.

02:06:22   And again, I would stress that your friends and family

02:06:25   may not be able to give you that perspective

02:06:27   because there is societal pressure

02:06:29   for your friends and family to be relentlessly positive

02:06:31   and say, oh, I'm sure you'll be fine.

02:06:33   Oh, you'll get over it.

02:06:33   Oh, we can help out.

02:06:34   Are you feeling better?

02:06:35   Not that they're doing anything bad about that,

02:06:37   but it's not their job, right?

02:06:39   That's the therapist's job.

02:06:41   And in terms of preparation,

02:06:43   I've heard from so many people,

02:06:46   trying to find a therapist is the hardest part of therapy.

02:06:49   Forget about the decision to do it,

02:06:50   sometimes that's also hard to get over that hump.

02:06:52   Okay, I've decided I want a therapist.

02:06:54   Uh, who?

02:06:55   Uh, I don't know, I can search,

02:06:56   oh boy, there's a lot of them.

02:06:57   How do I pick one?

02:06:58   Or like, do that before the baby comes out of someone's body

02:07:03   because you are more able to,

02:07:05   because think about if you're in this terrible situation

02:07:08   and you think there might be something wrong

02:07:09   but you can't tell, that's not the time you wanna say,

02:07:11   oh, and now I have to figure out how to pick a therapist.

02:07:13   You can do that ahead of time.

02:07:15   You can call them up, you can make your first appointment

02:07:17   for the first week after the baby's due date.

02:07:19   Like, do it while you don't have baby brain.

02:07:22   Do it now.

02:07:24   - Yeah, and just to end on a slightly more positive note,

02:07:27   I have known Erin, I think the least of all

02:07:30   that each of us have known our spouses,

02:07:31   but I've known Erin 17 years, 17 and a half at this point.

02:07:34   The single most impressive and amazing thing

02:07:40   I get to see her do is be a mom,

02:07:43   but the single most impressive thing

02:07:46   I think I've ever seen her do

02:07:48   is to have our two kids.

02:07:50   Like, watching your wife do that

02:07:53   is something that is unbelievable,

02:07:57   and I don't have the vocabulary

02:07:59   to put into words what that's like.

02:08:01   And I don't think Aaron's unique in this.

02:08:03   I think Tina and I think Tiff are exactly the same.

02:08:06   And just watching your wife,

02:08:10   I'm gonna say go through that,

02:08:11   but again, that implies negativeness,

02:08:12   but to watch your wife bring another person into the world,

02:08:17   and that includes pregnancy,

02:08:18   but particularly birth, like it's just, it's unreal.

02:08:21   And for my money, so to speak,

02:08:24   it's the most impressive thing I've seen Erin do.

02:08:27   And that's something really special that,

02:08:29   no matter how good or bad a parent she is,

02:08:34   was or will be, I will never take that away from her.

02:08:37   And that's just a super cool thing

02:08:39   to share with your spouse, so.

02:08:41   - I almost missed it 'cause I was taking a dump.

02:08:43   (laughing)

02:08:47   - Oh my, well yeah, okay, so eat a sandwich in the car.

02:08:51   - Being a father during birth is a little bit easier.

02:08:53   - I would recommend not complaining that your feet hurt.

02:08:55   - Yeah. (laughs)

02:08:56   - Also a good idea.

02:08:58   Eat a sandwich on the way to the hospital

02:09:00   and then immediately take a dump.

02:09:02   That's our collective advice.

02:09:05   Nick Serrano writes, "I was just wondering

02:09:07   "if you guys could talk about alone or focused time

02:09:09   "when you're in app development mode

02:09:10   "and how you balance the time you need for that

02:09:12   "and the needs of interpersonal relationships

02:09:14   "like with your partner and kids.

02:09:15   "Does your partner respect that as a legitimate need

02:09:16   or has it ever caused tension? For me, and I think all three of us will probably have different answers for this, for me, I think

02:09:22   the only tension it's caused is that

02:09:26   Erin is almost too good about it and that I feel like she more jealously guards my work time than I do,

02:09:33   which is probably a sign that I should guard it more jealously, but that's neither here nor there.

02:09:36   But there are times, especially over the summer, where I'll be like, "Oh, I want to go with you three to do that thing."

02:09:41   She's like, "Well, are you sure? Don't you have work you need to be doing?"

02:09:43   And she's not saying that to be a turd like she's not it's not like your mom saying

02:09:46   Are you sure you don't need to clean up your room? You know, it's not that sort of thing

02:09:50   It's Lee know genuinely like do you need me to take the kids away so that you can concentrate and get work done?

02:09:55   And that's been kind of funny this summer, but generally speaking

02:09:58   We reached an agreement that these are my you know, kind of core working hours, which is really business speak

02:10:05   but that's basically what boils down to and

02:10:07   generally speaking she tries to leave me alone and the kids try to leave me alone when I'm in the office during those times and

02:10:13   Once or twice a week, I will go somewhere else like not a park bench mind you John

02:10:17   But a picnic table or maybe a library or maybe you know

02:10:20   The the exterior of a grocery store cafeteria or what have you and that will give me some focus time as well

02:10:26   but generally speaking it's we basically talked about it before I went independent and and

02:10:31   Came to an agreement that this is the time that I should and will be working and this is the time that I won't be

02:10:37   Working and we're gonna be okay with that and obviously flexes from time to time

02:10:40   but you know it's pretty consistent for the most part and that's worked out pretty well for us.

02:10:44   John, actually Marco I probably should have started with you since you've been at home the

02:10:48   longest of the three of us. How do you and Tiff and Adam work this out?

02:10:51   I am terrible at this. And I always have been. Like I am just terrible at time management in

02:10:58   general and when it comes to like balancing you know working at home with getting stuff done,

02:11:05   I am terrible at that too. And I have been terrible at that for the entire time I've been working at

02:11:10   home full time, which began 12 years ago.

02:11:13   So, I don't really have good answers here.

02:11:17   I mean, so, to some degree, I'm served well by the fact

02:11:21   that I have always been a slacker

02:11:23   with really inconsistent productivity.

02:11:26   We talked about this a little bit before,

02:11:29   like I will work my butt off for like a four hour stint

02:11:34   in a day, and that'll be like most of the work

02:11:38   I get done that week.

02:11:39   It'll just be like in those chunks

02:11:41   where I'll have these massively productive chunks of time

02:11:44   and then I will have days afterwards

02:11:47   where I don't have anything like that.

02:11:49   And most of that is not on the family, it's on me.

02:11:52   I'm the one who is usually being distracted by other things.

02:11:57   And part of that's also that I do different things.

02:12:00   Like I have been juggling this podcast and other podcasts

02:12:05   along with app development.

02:12:07   And there is very little overlap in those two,

02:12:10   in terms of what kind of mental mode

02:12:12   you have to be in to do it.

02:12:14   And so, and I do a lot of other things too.

02:12:18   I have other hobbies and other projects

02:12:20   that I work on and stuff like that.

02:12:22   And so, I've never been that good

02:12:25   at managing all this stuff.

02:12:26   I kind of just do work whenever I'm motivated to do it,

02:12:29   but that is not a predictable or consistent thing.

02:12:34   Otherwise, when it comes to things like kids and partners,

02:12:38   Tiff has been always very respectful of my time.

02:12:42   Whenever I need time, she lets me take it.

02:12:44   And that's always, and she takes, she works too.

02:12:47   And so I give her time and we go,

02:12:50   we'll be together for the morning and the evening

02:12:53   and lunch and then in between,

02:12:55   we'll both be working on stuff.

02:12:57   When there's a kid in the house, it's a little bit different.

02:13:01   Obviously, at least one of us needs to usually be,

02:13:05   especially when the kid is young,

02:13:07   at least one of us usually is playing with the kid

02:13:10   or managing the kid in some way.

02:13:12   And that's challenging if you both have work to do.

02:13:15   And that's something you kinda have to work out

02:13:17   with your spouse and figure out a good balance there.

02:13:20   And also, if the kid is home and you are home,

02:13:25   they're gonna run into your office sometimes

02:13:27   and show you stuff.

02:13:28   That's just how kids work.

02:13:29   And you can't really expect them not to do that

02:13:32   because they're just kids.

02:13:33   And so you kinda have to be prepared for that

02:13:35   and try to find ways,

02:13:38   and obviously like school makes this much, much easier,

02:13:41   try to find ways where you can get work done

02:13:44   when the kid isn't home.

02:13:45   And yeah, school is a godsend for this.

02:13:48   Like that's when I get,

02:13:49   this is why in the summertime I get way less work done

02:13:53   than during the school year.

02:13:55   And there's a few reasons for that,

02:13:56   but that's probably the biggest reason

02:13:57   is that in the school year,

02:13:59   we are forced to wake up early every weekday,

02:14:03   and then after an hour of rushed craziness,

02:14:06   we then have alone time in the house.

02:14:08   And then we can get all of our work done

02:14:09   until mid-afternoon,

02:14:10   then other stuff can then happen once the kid is home.

02:14:16   So school is awesome for this,

02:14:18   otherwise I have no useful tips.

02:14:20   - John, this is most pertinent for you

02:14:23   'cause this is newest for you,

02:14:24   so what have you guys been doing?

02:14:26   - That's not really new for me,

02:14:27   'cause my very first job out of college

02:14:29   was a telecommuting job.

02:14:30   - Oh, that's true, that's true.

02:14:31   And you've been working from home for a while.

02:14:33   - So I'm working from home for all of my jobs

02:14:35   that I've ever had in various amounts,

02:14:37   ranging from 100% to probably not less than 50%

02:14:41   for most of them. - That's fair.

02:14:42   - So I think, when you think about this question,

02:14:46   a lone focus time for working on app development

02:14:48   or whatever and the relationships,

02:14:50   you would think that this is a task of like,

02:14:53   I have to talk to my spouse and family

02:14:58   and just come to an arrangement and agreement.

02:15:00   And there is that.

02:15:01   Communication is important, and talking about it

02:15:03   with the other people in your house is important.

02:15:04   But I think one of the important things that's easy to miss

02:15:07   is self-knowledge, knowing what kind of person you are.

02:15:13   How are you most productive?

02:15:14   How do you like to work?

02:15:16   How much time does it take you to ramp up to whatever

02:15:19   task that you're doing?

02:15:19   Does it literally take you an hour

02:15:21   before you get into the zone when programming.

02:15:24   How quickly can you test, which if you get interrupted,

02:15:27   how much of a loop does that throw you for?

02:15:29   All the way down to the type of thing of like,

02:15:30   having the self-knowledge to know

02:15:33   whether you are more productive or less productive

02:15:35   when people aren't in the house.

02:15:39   Some people are way more productive

02:15:41   as people leave the house.

02:15:42   Some people get antsy when no one's in the house, right?

02:15:46   Like it depends on your personality trait.

02:15:48   Like, and I'm not saying they're bothering you,

02:15:49   just literally like are they in the house, right?

02:15:52   You have to know sort of what, how you work, right?

02:15:56   And it's sometimes difficult to know that

02:15:57   until you've tried.

02:15:58   You maybe think, I would love it when no one's in the house

02:16:00   and it's nice and quiet, and then everyone leaves the house

02:16:02   and you're like, finally I can get the programming done.

02:16:03   You find you cannot concentrate.

02:16:05   That may be teaching you that you're not the type of person

02:16:07   who becomes more productive when everybody leaves.

02:16:09   Or you may not have realized you're that type of person

02:16:11   until suddenly the school year starts

02:16:13   and your kids aren't there and your wife's out of the house

02:16:15   for the morning, you're like, wow, I was so productive.

02:16:17   What changed about this morning?

02:16:18   Knowing how you work will let you figure out

02:16:22   how you have to arrange things.

02:16:24   If you are the type of person who needs

02:16:25   that long ramp up time, you should arrange your life

02:16:28   so you have these large blocks where you can do that

02:16:30   and don't even attempt to time slice

02:16:33   in a 20 minute development thing between tasks,

02:16:35   but you have to know that about yourself, right?

02:16:38   Are you the type of person who works well, you know,

02:16:42   going out to sit in front of the Walmart

02:16:45   or on a park bench or whatever?

02:16:46   Like, maybe you don't know,

02:16:48   you've never tried it.

02:16:49   Try it and find out.

02:16:50   And don't commit to a plan ahead of time

02:16:53   and then beat yourself up because like,

02:16:54   oh, I said I was gonna do this from these hours

02:16:55   to these hours and it's not working,

02:16:56   I can't figure out why.

02:16:57   Try a bunch of different things and introspection.

02:17:01   Look into yourself, figure out what works for you

02:17:03   and what doesn't and then figure out

02:17:06   your schedule around that.

02:17:07   And the final thing that I'm saying is,

02:17:09   this is a trait that is common to many programmers

02:17:11   and it's probably true of Nick.

02:17:13   When we get into the zone and we're working on a problem

02:17:16   and we almost have it fixed,

02:17:19   of course you wanna finish it.

02:17:20   Of course you wanna make the commit.

02:17:22   Of course you wanna push the commit.

02:17:23   Of course you wanna just get over the finish line.

02:17:26   This is where you run into trouble.

02:17:27   'Cause no programmer wants to stop in the middle

02:17:30   of a thing that they just figured out the solution to

02:17:31   and they're almost about to solve.

02:17:33   But that's where you have to be firm with yourself

02:17:36   and say whatever boundary we set with the agreement,

02:17:39   like five o'clock it's family time or whatever,

02:17:41   sometimes you just have to stop in the middle.

02:17:44   Now, figure out some version control stuff,

02:17:47   put it in a stash, make a commit,

02:17:49   and then amend it later or whatever.

02:17:52   Whatever you have to do from a technical perspective,

02:17:54   but be okay with the idea that you're not always

02:17:56   going to be able to get satisfaction.

02:18:01   And it's so hard when you're like,

02:18:04   especially if you've just cracked the problem

02:18:06   and now it's just a simple matter of programming

02:18:08   to bang it out or whatever, oh, but it's dinner time,

02:18:10   just give me 20 more minutes,

02:18:12   and 20 more minutes turns into 45 minutes,

02:18:13   That is not a formula for a happy household.

02:18:15   That is not a formula for a happy you.

02:18:17   So prepare ahead of time to,

02:18:21   regardless of how you are as a person,

02:18:23   we all wanna finish the problem.

02:18:24   Condition yourself to figure out how you can be okay

02:18:27   with stopping in the middle

02:18:28   when it goes against every fiber of your being

02:18:30   because that is an important part of setting boundaries

02:18:33   for yourself and respecting your agreement with your family

02:18:37   about how you will confine yourself.

02:18:39   It doesn't mean you can't ever go over it.

02:18:40   It doesn't mean like, oh, today,

02:18:41   this is actually important.

02:18:42   I have to ship a thing out.

02:18:43   I'm gonna miss dinner or whatever,

02:18:45   but be careful with making that a habit.

02:18:48   And the best way to do that is to be okay,

02:18:50   do some practice runs and be okay of stopping in the middle.

02:18:52   And I know it messes with your productivity.

02:18:54   I know it's gonna take you a long time

02:18:55   to ramp back up to it tomorrow,

02:18:56   but it's a skill you need to develop, so practice that.

02:18:59   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

02:19:00   Squarespace, Linode, and Collide.

02:19:03   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

02:19:05   You can join on atp.fm/join,

02:19:08   and we'll talk to you next week.

02:19:10   (upbeat music)

02:19:13   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

02:19:17   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:19:20   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

02:19:23   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:19:28   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:19:31   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

02:19:34   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:19:39   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

02:19:43   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:19:48   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:19:52   Anti-Marco Arment

02:19:54   S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

02:20:00   It's accidental

02:20:03   They didn't mean to

02:20:05   Accidental

02:20:08   ♪ Tech by castle so long ♪

02:20:11   - John, you recently traveled and you rented a car?

02:20:19   - It's so hard to rent cars because you can rent a thing,

02:20:21   but can you rent a car?

02:20:22   Oh, you can rent an SUV, so easy.

02:20:24   (laughing)

02:20:25   That's all they have.

02:20:26   But like when they have like the categories

02:20:28   of what kind of, it used to be like,

02:20:29   I'm so old enough I remember it was like,

02:20:31   what kind of car would you like to rent?

02:20:33   You can rent a compact car, a mid-sized car, or a full-size.

02:20:36   and what they meant is compact midsize and full-size sedan.

02:20:39   Like that's all you could rent, that's how old I am.

02:20:41   Now, if you want a sedan, you have to say,

02:20:44   what category has non-SUVs in it?

02:20:46   It's so hard to find.

02:20:48   - No, but even then, you can't,

02:20:49   because when you, this runs to me,

02:20:51   I've run into this a few times,

02:20:52   where if I'm going on a trip and I want to rent a car,

02:20:55   I'll usually pick whatever is the premium sedan option,

02:20:58   'cause I wanna get, let me get a nice car.

02:21:01   - You're gonna Cadillac Escalade is what you're gonna get.

02:21:03   So what those categories say on the website is,

02:21:07   yeah, you'll get like, you know,

02:21:08   like maybe like, you know, a Nissan Maxima

02:21:10   or something like that.

02:21:11   What they actually mean is price category.

02:21:14   That's what they mean.

02:21:15   And so what they mean is cheap car,

02:21:17   less cheap car, more expensive car.

02:21:20   And so, and they consider it totally routine

02:21:24   and normal to substitute other cars

02:21:27   of the same price category with whatever you ordered

02:21:30   and they act like they're doing you a favor.

02:21:31   So when I book the car, what I actually get oftentimes is,

02:21:36   hey, we upgraded you to this SUV.

02:21:39   And if I'm like, well, can I not do that?

02:21:41   Oh, this is all we have.

02:21:43   That's it.

02:21:43   So you're stuck with it.

02:21:44   Like, okay, well, I mean, thanks,

02:21:45   but that's not what I wanted.

02:21:47   - Yeah, I mean, if you search hard enough

02:21:49   or you specify, you can usually get a Sam.

02:21:50   But anyway, that's what I wanted on my trip

02:21:51   was I wanted a SIN.

02:21:52   I wanted as close as I could get to my Honda Accord

02:21:54   as I can, surprise, surprise.

02:21:55   Of course you can't get a Honda Accord,

02:21:57   but just kind of dumb,

02:21:58   'cause I don't know why rental car fleets

02:21:59   don't have a Accord.

02:22:00   It's not like they're not plentiful,

02:22:01   but I don't often see them.

02:22:02   I'm sure somebody has them.

02:22:04   Anyway, I got a Camry, which is like A++,

02:22:06   exactly what you wanted.

02:22:07   Like that is the equivalent of an Accord.

02:22:09   It is a midsize, full-size type sedan.

02:22:12   It is not an SUV.

02:22:13   It is so rare to find.

02:22:14   I mean, obviously it's not stick shift,

02:22:16   but let's be realistic here.

02:22:17   So I was pretty happy.

02:22:20   I'm like, and you never know what you're gonna get

02:22:21   until you get there.

02:22:22   It's like, oh, here you go.

02:22:23   It's a Camry.

02:22:24   I'm like, hey, pretty good.

02:22:25   That is as close as you can get

02:22:27   without going over to getting an Accord, basically.

02:22:29   - Maximo would have been fine as well.

02:22:32   And the car was for the most part fine.

02:22:34   My wife drove it because we were in her hometown area.

02:22:37   She knows where everything is.

02:22:38   I drove it a little bit too, but she mostly drove it.

02:22:41   She immediately hated it.

02:22:42   We're very similar in this way.

02:22:45   She seems often to have even more visceral hatred

02:22:49   of automatic transmissions.

02:22:50   Again, neither of us in our married life together

02:22:53   has ever owned a car that is not stick shift.

02:22:55   I keep telling her that it is possible

02:22:59   have a good automatic but the Camry doesn't have a particularly good automatic.

02:23:01   So she was like "Boy, I can't wait to get back to my Accord, I don't like this car."

02:23:05   But you know, it's a Camry, it's a big mushy whatever.

02:23:07   And it wasn't particularly fun to drive or anything like that, but it got the job done.

02:23:12   But most of my complaints about the Camry when riding it had to do with the infotainment,

02:23:16   because she's driving, that's my job, to wrangle the infotainment.

02:23:19   This is the first car that I've ever used used, as in not just been in for two seconds,

02:23:23   that has CarPlay.

02:23:24   So I was excited to try CarPlay.

02:23:26   wireless carplay as far as I can tell, just wired carplay.

02:23:30   And as Margo and Casey know because I was talking about it in our neutral Slack channel

02:23:35   with the other car enthusiasts, for this whole week long vacation I was trying to figure

02:23:42   out one problem having to do with carplay that I never did get solved despite all the

02:23:47   suggestions.

02:23:48   And I thought I would throw it out on the podcast in case someone can tell me what the

02:23:51   deal is.

02:23:52   Plug in your phone, throws up the map, does the carplay thing.

02:23:55   We were just using Apple Maps for directions and stuff.

02:23:59   And Apple Maps, the friendly person at Apple Maps

02:24:01   would say, you know, take exit 25 in one mile or whatever.

02:24:05   But the voice prompts.

02:24:08   But that voice was so loud.

02:24:11   Like, ear-splittingly loud.

02:24:13   Like, so loud that the kids were like,

02:24:14   "Stop, make it stop, turn off the directions."

02:24:17   It was so loud.

02:24:19   You'd think this would be an easy problem to solve,

02:24:22   but me being a CarPlay novice,

02:24:23   I'm like, maybe this is just something

02:24:24   I don't understand about carplay.

02:24:26   So we tried all the things that you can imagine.

02:24:28   I tried the volume knob on the dashboard

02:24:30   'cause that was just a plain old volume knob in the Camry.

02:24:32   Didn't do anything.

02:24:33   I tried the volume on the phone, didn't do anything.

02:24:35   I tried looking for settings in the car, couldn't find it.

02:24:37   I tried looking for settings on the phone,

02:24:38   couldn't find anything relevant.

02:24:40   Casey's suggestion and many other people's suggestion was,

02:24:42   you have to adjust the volume while the audio is playing

02:24:46   'cause otherwise it thinks you're adjusting the volume

02:24:47   of like the music that you might be playing,

02:24:49   but you want to adjust the volume of the voice.

02:24:51   So do the volume adjustment when the voice is speaking.

02:24:55   Nope, didn't make any difference.

02:24:56   Tried all the volumes things on the phone,

02:24:58   any kind of settings, the knobs,

02:25:00   when the thing is playing, had no effect whatsoever.

02:25:04   The only thing we found that relieved this agony

02:25:07   was using Google Maps because the Google Maps voice

02:25:09   was slightly more quiet, was not as ear-splitting.

02:25:12   Still couldn't adjust the volume in any way,

02:25:15   and it was still loud, but not as loud.

02:25:18   And this can't be the way the world works, right?

02:25:21   Like this can't, like if you have a Camry,

02:25:23   this was a 2022 Camry, right?

02:25:26   This cannot be the status quo on the 2022 camera

02:25:29   that sorry, there is literally no way to control the volume

02:25:32   of the voice that reads you directions

02:25:34   when you're navigating through an app on your phone.

02:25:38   Just could not figure that out and it boggled my mind

02:25:41   and it really made me dislike this car a lot.

02:25:44   Aside from the driving thing,

02:25:45   the only other weird thing,

02:25:46   I mean, this is just personal preference or whatever,

02:25:48   The seats felt like Venus fly traps that were eating me.

02:25:51   I was in the passenger seat,

02:25:55   which usually doesn't have the same number of adjustments

02:25:57   as the driver's seat on these cheaper cars.

02:25:59   And you know, so it was all manual

02:26:00   and maybe it was lacking some adjustments,

02:26:02   but like the main thing I wanted was the thing

02:26:04   that tilts the seat bottom, right?

02:26:06   So it's either, you know, like either a flat,

02:26:08   like a parallel with the ground would be completely flat

02:26:10   and then usually you can tilt the seat bottom up.

02:26:12   So it tilts, these seats were tilted so far up

02:26:14   and as far as I could tell,

02:26:16   had no way to adjust it down,

02:26:18   that I felt like I was sliding backwards

02:26:20   into a terrible pit, so uncomfortable.

02:26:22   - That's awful for your lower back.

02:26:24   - Yeah, I mean, you could adjust the seat back angle,

02:26:26   like you could do that to try to make it better,

02:26:28   but in order for me to feel comfortable,

02:26:30   I'd have to be laid back so far

02:26:31   that I'd be looking through the rear window.

02:26:33   Like, it's just, you know, that's,

02:26:36   maybe the seats feel comfortable with other people,

02:26:38   and I think the driver's seat did have more adjustment,

02:26:40   but it was weird.

02:26:41   But anyway, the carplay thing, I couldn't figure out,

02:26:42   so if someone knows the secret solution

02:26:44   to adjusting the volume of the voice on a 2022 camera

02:26:48   using wired CarPlay and the latest version of iOS

02:26:50   with Apple Maps, I would love to hear it.

02:26:53   - So real-time follow up, Jon, can you click the link

02:26:54   I put in both the Slack and in the chat room?

02:26:58   This is a 20-second YouTube video.

02:27:00   Is this what you were working with?

02:27:01   Because I don't know what the inside

02:27:03   of a modern Camry looks like.

02:27:04   - I mean, that's not, that doesn't look like it.

02:27:06   I recognize the software, but the dashboard surround,

02:27:09   that's not the 2022 Camry that we were in.

02:27:10   - All right, well, so in there,

02:27:11   If you look at about 10 seconds in, in the menu,

02:27:14   you can go to Setup, and then there's a voice section

02:27:16   in Voice Volume, and there's an adjuster in there.

02:27:19   - No, that was, I mean, I looked through the settings a lot,

02:27:22   and this was not there.

02:27:23   I would love for it to have been there,

02:27:25   but this menu item was not there.

02:27:26   Maybe it needed a software update.

02:27:28   That could also be possible,

02:27:29   'cause it is a rental car or whatever,

02:27:30   but I think we did have the audio item,

02:27:32   because I remember clicking on Audio a lot,

02:27:34   thinking surely it's gotta be here,

02:27:35   but there was no voice item.

02:27:36   - Well, remember, this is in Voice, not Audio.

02:27:38   - I know, but there was no voice item.

02:27:39   I would have gone into Voice for sure if it was there.

02:27:41   - All right, I mean, I did a quick Google

02:27:43   just to see if I could somehow shame you with an answer,

02:27:46   but unfortunately not.

02:27:48   No, but for the record, on both my car and Aaron's,

02:27:51   on my Volkswagen and Aaron's Volvo,

02:27:52   I am 99.9% sure that if you twist the volume knob

02:27:57   as the announcement is happening,

02:28:01   it will adjust the announcement volume.

02:28:03   I am almost certain of it.

02:28:05   - Yeah, I mean, it probably does work that out across,

02:28:06   just not in this one.

02:28:07   We gotta, I'll make this anonymous,

02:28:09   But from an anonymous person who works for a car company

02:28:12   said this, the iPhone sends navigation prompts

02:28:15   as nominal, unattenuated audio.

02:28:17   The car system should allow for volume control.

02:28:19   So just in terms of the responsibility,

02:28:22   the phone sends the audio and is really up to the car's

02:28:25   infotainment system to adjust that audio.

02:28:27   So I guess that focuses your efforts on don't bother trying

02:28:30   to do it on the phone.

02:28:31   That's probably not going to work.

02:28:32   It's got to be somewhere in the car infotainment system.

02:28:36   And I'm totally willing to believe this is a user error,

02:28:39   maybe something about how I set up the phone

02:28:40   with CarPlay was wrong, 'cause there was this,

02:28:42   you know, when you plug in the phone,

02:28:43   it puts up this prompt or whatever,

02:28:44   and who knows what I tapped

02:28:45   when we were in the airport parking lot and all that stuff.

02:28:46   - But isn't it just two questions?

02:28:48   It's like, do you wanna use for CarPlay, yes or no,

02:28:49   and like, do you wanna sync your contacts oftentimes?

02:28:51   Like, that's the--

02:28:52   - Maybe those are the questions,

02:28:53   I mean, I don't remember, yes, some people--

02:28:54   - No, it was, I believe one of them

02:28:56   is whether or not you allow CarPlay use

02:28:58   while the phone is locked,

02:28:58   because I believe one of the things you can do

02:29:01   is say it will not connect to CarPlay

02:29:03   until you have actively unlocked the phone.

02:29:05   that is a thing that you could turn on.

02:29:08   - Yeah, this voice volume thing

02:29:09   has gotta be the solution in this video.

02:29:12   It just, we didn't have that menu item

02:29:13   on the left-hand menu.

02:29:15   We had a similar version of software.

02:29:16   It looks kind of the same,

02:29:17   and I recognize like those horizontal buttons,

02:29:20   home, audio, map, apps, like,

02:29:22   it just, I mean, this is not the car we were in,

02:29:25   because, you know, our screen was above the vents,

02:29:27   and, you know, it was totally different volume knobs, right?

02:29:28   So maybe this is changed in later versions

02:29:31   or earlier versions,

02:29:32   or maybe the firmware needed to be updated or something.

02:29:33   But I'm glad to know that there apparently

02:29:35   is a way to do it, it just was not in the thing that we had.

02:29:38   It was very frustrating.

02:29:39   - So what did you think of CarPlay

02:29:41   other than the excessively loud announcements?

02:29:44   - I mean, that really super did ruin it,

02:29:46   'cause the main thing you're using it for is,

02:29:47   you know, I mean, we had the overcast icon

02:29:49   and everybody was like, "listen to podcast."

02:29:51   I mean, it's great, like I would love it on my next car.

02:29:53   Like it's, you know, I'm not against CarPlay, I'm for it.

02:29:56   It's just, it was very weird.

02:29:57   Oh, and then one more thing.

02:29:59   Let me find a...

02:30:00   - While you're looking,

02:30:01   I'm surprised that both of you wanted audio announcements

02:30:04   because I almost never use audio announcements

02:30:08   and this is actually even better for Apple Watch users.

02:30:10   Oh, I almost never do.

02:30:11   - Really, why wouldn't you?

02:30:12   You can keep your eyes on the road.

02:30:13   They have someone to have,

02:30:14   a friendly voice tells you when to turn.

02:30:15   - Well, so a couple of things.

02:30:15   First of all, generally speaking,

02:30:18   if I'm traveling somewhere unknown,

02:30:19   it's typically with Aaron

02:30:20   and typically whoever's not driving will also be,

02:30:23   you'll have a much keener eye.

02:30:25   - You get live performances of the announcement?

02:30:27   - Well, actually, yeah, I guess that's a good point.

02:30:28   I guess I ultimately am getting the announcements,

02:30:30   it's not from CarPlay, I didn't think of it that way.

02:30:32   But no, even if I'm by myself, generally speaking,

02:30:35   I'll just glance down at the map from time to time.

02:30:38   Also, if you're an Apple Watch user,

02:30:39   which last I heard, I thought Tina was,

02:30:41   then it will tap you incessantly and repeatedly

02:30:44   when you're coming up to a turn.

02:30:47   That's a bit overdramatic.

02:30:48   - That's only with Apple Maps, though.

02:30:50   - That's a good point, that is a good point

02:30:51   that is only with Apple Maps.

02:30:52   - I mean, we're using Apple Maps.

02:30:54   I mean, she was wearing her watch, maybe it was buzzing.

02:30:56   I just didn't, you know, it's not on my wrist,

02:30:58   so I didn't feel it.

02:30:59   - Well, it would only be buzzing

02:31:00   if you were using her phone for CarPlay, so maybe--

02:31:02   Maybe that's it too because I think probably half the time probably had my phone plugged in just because I'm managing the infotainment. Yeah

02:31:07   Another thing this is another weird one like this dashboard

02:31:12   It had a lot of glossy black plastic, which is kind of out of fashion because it collects fingerprints

02:31:17   But there's this like lag time for for car manufacturers to figure out that people don't want piano by plastic everywhere anymore

02:31:23   So it was a fashion trend for many years. Hopefully it's fading now. But anyway, there was a lot of this plastic

02:31:26   and

02:31:28   What they decided to dedicate dashboard space for so they have the big screen in the middle and events and stuff like this

02:31:33   But I'm gonna look at this picture in the chat here

02:31:35   Look at the size of these items here

02:31:38   I should have put something in it for scale but like to the left is the screen right?

02:31:42   That's like several inches long that passenger airbag light

02:31:46   Maybe there are other warning lights on that thing

02:31:48   But that's a big that's a big control to have to the right of the screen on the dashboard

02:31:56   You can see the seat belt lights below it or whatever and the thing that baffled me about this is it was the opposite of

02:32:01   Granted I only get Honda so I don't know what other cars like but it's the opposite of any car I've ever owned where

02:32:06   for people to know there is a safety feature of modern cars where if

02:32:11   There is a child in the passenger sheet the car will disable the passenger airbag

02:32:16   so it doesn't kill the child because passenger airbags have to be sized to

02:32:19   Save an un-belted adult because we live in a stupid country where people don't wear their seat belts

02:32:24   So the explosion is very powerful and it can kill a child, right?

02:32:27   So if there is weight on the passenger seat, but that weight is not as heavy as a you know

02:32:32   A full-size expected adult human the passenger airbag will be disabled and normally there's a light somewhere in your dashboard

02:32:38   They will tell you hey just so you know, the passenger airbag is currently disabled

02:32:42   They don't tell you why but you just have to know that it's disabled because it thinks there's a kid there

02:32:46   So if you put a bag of groceries in the seat very often you start the car. You'll see a little passenger

02:32:50   You know passenger airbag disabled. Well, look at this picture. I just posted. What is this trying to tell me? Oh

02:32:55   That is really crummy UI that are user experience here for an architecture

02:33:01   I think it's saying that there is not a car seat there

02:33:05   And so the passenger airbag is indeed on I think I can tell you as a spoiler

02:33:10   I'm sitting as a full-size adult in the passenger seat when this thing is on right

02:33:15   The entire time on the entire trip that light is on so it's the it's the everything. Okay siren, right?

02:33:21   I think what it's telling me is hey just so you know

02:33:25   The passenger airbag is enabled because we have determined you're a big fat adult and it's okay to blow up this explosion in your face

02:33:31   Right, but it never goes off

02:33:33   It's a big light and it's bright and it is prominent on the dashboard

02:33:38   And so it's like basically saying everything's okay

02:33:40   The passenger airbag is on you are an adult everything is okay

02:33:44   And it never goes off and I'm like who designed this because like I said every other car

02:33:48   I've been in you see a light persistently when it's off

02:33:51   But in the normal situation either nobody in the seat or an adult sized person in the seat

02:33:57   There's no light right and so I don't know what the toy designers worth. Maybe every Toyota is like this

02:34:02   I don't know where they were thinking with the prominence of this display

02:34:05   I don't know what they were thinking with the infographics, and I don't know if they were thinking with the

02:34:09   Decision to have the light on all the time as opposed to the reverse super weird

02:34:13   So, I mean not that I was in ever in the market for a camera anyway, but this is some weird decisions

02:34:18   It's almost a shame

02:34:20   You didn't get the before runner which by the way, I'm seeing tons of forerunners everywhere now that I know what they look like

02:34:24   They're just so gross in person. I wonder if it has the same thing almost all modern modern

02:34:29   Toyotas and Lexus is Lex I are hideous like not BMW hideous but hideous. There's a nice looking at Lexus models, but

02:34:37   I don't know about that.

02:34:38   - I haven't seen 'em.

02:34:39   - Oh, there's the Toda, what is it?

02:34:40   The, it used to be the FRS, but now it's the G86.

02:34:43   - Oh, that's true, that's true.

02:34:44   That one's pretty good.

02:34:45   - Not the Supra, though, ugh, that's gross.

02:34:47   - I don't think the Supra is that bad, actually.

02:34:49   - It's so bad, it's like a melted snailfish.

02:34:51   I don't like it, it's just so aggressively ugly.

02:34:54   [door closes]