495: Five Points for Smell


00:00:00   I know I'm going to end up disappointed

00:00:01   by the end of the night, but sitting here now,

00:00:03   where ignorance is lists,

00:00:05   I am so excited for the after show.

00:00:07   - You've been on fire with the list puns recently.

00:00:09   They've been, well I don't know if fire is really--

00:00:11   - Don't encourage him.

00:00:13   - You've been on this mud waterfall.

00:00:16   (laughing)

00:00:18   - All right, so Rob Sayer writes,

00:00:21   "Casey mentioned the Oracle Android Java case

00:00:24   "in the S3 API conversation."

00:00:26   So to back up a half step, we were talking about

00:00:27   is it okay to copy a developer--another party's API? Is that cool? Is that not cool?" And

00:00:32   I said, "Oh, well, you know, there's a big lawsuit between Oracle and, you know, Android

00:00:36   who had basically copied but re-implemented the Java APIs or at least that's my vague

00:00:40   understanding of it." So anyway, Rob continues, "The Supreme Court said that this was fair

00:00:44   use. I've always found this case funny because Oracle in fact copies the S3 API." So here

00:00:49   it was. Oracle took Google and Android and so on to court saying, "Oh, you copied our

00:00:53   stuff." And then Oracle turned right around and said, "Oh, you know, we're going to copy

00:00:57   the S3 API. That sounds great, thank you.

00:00:59   - I'm sure what Oracle would say is that,

00:01:01   well, APIs are not all the same.

00:01:02   We're talking about a programming interface

00:01:05   or local code in a machine,

00:01:06   and this is a network protocol, HTTP requests

00:01:09   for certain paths and parameters and so on,

00:01:12   and that's totally different.

00:01:14   These days we think of them all as APIs,

00:01:16   but there is a case to be made that

00:01:18   if there was to be some kind of law

00:01:20   coming out of that Java Oracle thing,

00:01:23   it might not apply to network APIs.

00:01:26   - That's a fair point.

00:01:28   And with regard to Marco's tear,

00:01:32   which I thought was justified at the time,

00:01:34   about Apple in the hypothetical Apple car,

00:01:37   they wouldn't wanna put any branding on the tires.

00:01:40   They would want a completely flat tire.

00:01:42   You didn't go so far as to say white walls,

00:01:44   but you never know.

00:01:45   If Johnny is still contracting, it could be.

00:01:48   He loves his white rooms.

00:01:49   - You know what Johnny would do?

00:01:50   All white tires, and just pretend like they don't get dirty.

00:01:53   - Right?

00:01:54   - You know, the same with, there's never a power cord

00:01:56   in their product photography.

00:01:57   Like, just, you know what, we're actually gonna have

00:01:59   this white car driving on this white store front,

00:02:01   you know, this white Apple Store floor as the demo

00:02:04   with white tires and forget what it looks like

00:02:06   in the real world, it'll always look like this.

00:02:08   - Well, I did have a space gray option too.

00:02:10   (laughing)

00:02:12   - If it's all white with white tires,

00:02:13   am I like contractually obligated to buy one?

00:02:17   Is that how this works?

00:02:17   - It would just happen to you.

00:02:18   It just, that's what happens with white cars.

00:02:20   - It would just happen.

00:02:22   Anyway, so with regard to Apple wanting brand free tires,

00:02:25   TK wrote to us to point out an article

00:02:28   about how Ford apparently demanded

00:02:31   that Goodyear remove the Wrangler branding

00:02:33   for tires installed on Broncos,

00:02:35   which I thought was very funny.

00:02:36   - Yeah, although they didn't, as far as I can tell,

00:02:38   they're not removing the word Goodyear,

00:02:40   and when they removed Wrangler,

00:02:43   they only removed it from one side.

00:02:45   It's like, if you're gonna remove Wrangler,

00:02:48   like they only removed it from the outside side,

00:02:49   so it's still on the inside, just seems

00:02:53   kind of half-hearted all around.

00:02:55   - Well, and I'm sure there's probably practical reasons,

00:02:57   like maybe when they stock these tires in the warehouse,

00:03:00   they could more easily see what they are or whatever,

00:03:01   who knows, but yeah, it's kind of funny

00:03:03   that there's this weird fluke that a popular line

00:03:05   of off-road capable Goodyear tires is called the Wrangler,

00:03:09   while also elsewhere in the car business

00:03:12   is a popular vehicle called the Wrangler

00:03:14   by a different company, which is kind of this amazing

00:03:16   failure of trademark law, like these two

00:03:19   should never have been allowed to coexist in the same industry but oh well

00:03:22   tire in a car do I mean you can drive your Bronco while wearing Wrangler jeans

00:03:26   probably yeah that's a whole different industry yeah that's a different

00:03:29   industry I know it's a different tires and an entire car it's fine

00:03:32   well regardless friend of the show Sam a well some aid who you might remember

00:03:37   from a recent episode of upgrade which is very good anyway Sam writes to say

00:03:41   Apple doesn't have to be stubborn about unbranded tires they just have to

00:03:44   specify it and probably pay a premium but any tire maker would build them

00:03:48   whatever they want. Even when they leave the branding on, the tires that are supplied from

00:03:51   the factory are almost always unique to that specific model. OEMs frequently spec unique

00:03:55   compounds or other characteristics to meet their performance requirements for handling,

00:03:58   braking, etc. If you look up tires on, say, Tire Rack, you will often see tires labeled

00:04:03   as OEM or aftermarket. They look identical, but they may have different rubber compounds

00:04:06   or even different internal construction. The aftermarket ones are the generic version.

00:04:10   I had no idea this was the case, so I thought that was fascinating.

00:04:13   Moving on, John, tell me about your TV. Do you have any updates for us, please?

00:04:17   I do have a handful of updates.

00:04:18   So first, on the whole Wi-Fi front,

00:04:21   my television wouldn't connect to Wi-Fi.

00:04:23   We had some ideas from folks out there.

00:04:26   First is from Jeff C. You said--

00:04:28   asked if your date and time is set correctly on the TV.

00:04:31   He says, my Sony TV wouldn't connect to Wi-Fi when

00:04:33   the date and time was incorrect.

00:04:35   That is a common thing, also a common thing

00:04:36   for SSL certificates.

00:04:38   If you're connecting to websites and telling you

00:04:39   the certificates are invalid, make sure your date and time

00:04:42   are set correctly.

00:04:42   Now, most modern devices, especially

00:04:44   ones that connect to the internet,

00:04:46   Connect to some kind of network time service.

00:04:48   You don't have to really do this manually,

00:04:49   like in the old days, and on some very behind the times

00:04:53   electronic devices.

00:04:54   The very first thing you do when you turn it on,

00:04:55   it would ask you to set the date and time,

00:04:56   but these days, if there's an expectation

00:04:58   that it'll have a network connection,

00:04:59   they don't ask you to do that.

00:05:00   So they should be set correctly,

00:05:01   but it's worth looking into the maybe NTP server,

00:05:05   you can't get to it on your network for some reason,

00:05:06   or there's some kind of problem,

00:05:07   or it thinks it's in the wrong time zone or something.

00:05:10   So that's worth checking.

00:05:11   That was not the problem with my television, however.

00:05:13   Justin Winchester says,

00:05:14   "Make sure you have limit IP address tracking turned off for your home wifi or your phone.

00:05:21   Also make sure local access is turned on for the app."

00:05:23   This is so when you do something on the TV and it says "Hey, just launch the YouTube

00:05:26   app and press the button and we'll sign you in."

00:05:30   He says the limit IP address tracking should be turned off on your phone and on your wifi.

00:05:35   I don't think that's the problem.

00:05:37   I double checked it to make sure.

00:05:38   I don't have that turned on, I don't think, on any of my devices.

00:05:43   and also the local access thing for the app.

00:05:46   That's when you launch an app and it prompts you

00:05:48   and it says whatever app wants to be able

00:05:50   to access the local network and you're not sure

00:05:52   what it means, so you just say okay.

00:05:54   I always just say okay too.

00:05:56   So I don't think either one of those were the problem.

00:05:58   Unfortunately, I haven't had an opportunity

00:06:00   to set up another app since I already did all my setup.

00:06:03   So I haven't tested these theories,

00:06:04   but it's two more things for people to check

00:06:06   if you're having problems with this.

00:06:09   None of these helped my, obviously,

00:06:11   get my television on Wi-Fi.

00:06:13   The thing I was thinking of when I was messing with it,

00:06:16   the very obvious first thing to try is,

00:06:18   how about you just unplug the ethernet?

00:06:19   'Cause maybe it just gets cranky that you have ethernet

00:06:21   and Wi-Fi at the same time and it can't handle it,

00:06:23   it just wants there to be one network connection,

00:06:25   it's not sophisticated enough to handle both of them.

00:06:27   So just unplug the ethernet.

00:06:28   And the reason I didn't do that immediately is,

00:06:30   oh, I gotta crawl behind the TV again,

00:06:31   I gotta pull off that panel, I gotta unplug the cable.

00:06:33   Like just, I thought I could get it to work

00:06:35   and I didn't wanna go crawl behind there.

00:06:37   But eventually I did crawl behind there

00:06:39   'cause I was behind there for other reasons,

00:06:40   which we'll get to in a minute.

00:06:42   And yeah, if you unplug the ethernet,

00:06:43   it connects to Wi-Fi just fine.

00:06:45   So that's a pretty cruddy limitation

00:06:47   of whatever version of Android, Google TV thing

00:06:51   this is running that it just can't handle,

00:06:53   ethernet and Wi-Fi.

00:06:54   If you have ethernet plugged in,

00:06:55   Wi-Fi will never ever connect.

00:06:57   But as soon as you unplug the internet,

00:06:58   it connects just fine.

00:07:00   And the reason I was interested in that

00:07:01   is something I discovered about my television

00:07:05   that I should have known,

00:07:06   but maybe it didn't concern me.

00:07:09   All right, so there's an app that comes with the TV.

00:07:12   It's called BraviaCore.

00:07:13   Lots of listeners, state DP, wrote in to tell me,

00:07:15   "Hey, I've got a Sony TV too.

00:07:16   "Make sure you don't look,

00:07:17   "don't ignore the BraviaCore app."

00:07:20   It's a terrible name.

00:07:21   Bravia is Sony's like brand name for their televisions.

00:07:24   Technically my television is the Bravia XR,

00:07:26   blah, blah, blah, right?

00:07:28   The BraviaCore app, it's a movie app.

00:07:31   You know, Sony is also a movie studio

00:07:32   and they have a bunch of movies, right?

00:07:34   So you can pay for, download, or stream movies

00:07:37   from the Sony movie collection.

00:07:38   maybe others, I don't know.

00:07:40   But the advantage of the Broadview Core app is one,

00:07:42   when you buy the super expensive TV,

00:07:44   it comes with like 10 credits to get movies.

00:07:47   So hey, free movies.

00:07:48   I think each movie is like one credit or something,

00:07:50   so I can get 10 movies if I want,

00:07:51   as long as there's so many movies.

00:07:53   And two, apparently, Broadview Core movies

00:07:57   let you either stream or download or both movies

00:08:00   in much higher quality than even the iTunes store.

00:08:03   Like that they're 4K, full res, high bit rate,

00:08:07   Maybe not as high as Blu-ray, because Blu-rays are like 60 gigs a movie or whatever it is,

00:08:12   but much higher than you would get on a typical streaming service.

00:08:16   And I'm like, "Okay, that's cool.

00:08:18   I should check that out."

00:08:19   But then I heard from other people and they said, "Oh yeah, I tried to use the Bravia

00:08:22   Core app, but I couldn't play the movies back at the high bit rate because it would stutter.

00:08:28   My network connection wasn't fast enough to keep up."

00:08:30   And I was like, "Well, I won't have that problem.

00:08:31   I'm plugged into Ethernet."

00:08:33   Then some people were saying, "Oh yeah, I'm on Ethernet too, and I also couldn't get my

00:08:36   my Wi-Fi to connect, but by the way,

00:08:38   I was trying to play movies from Broadview Core

00:08:40   and they were stuttering even when I was on Ethernet.

00:08:42   And the reason for that is that the Ethernet

00:08:43   is 100 megabits.

00:08:45   - Oh no.

00:08:46   - I don't know what century this is,

00:08:48   but I mean you would think 100 megabits

00:08:49   is plenty for a movie, 'cause most things

00:08:51   that are on streaming services are like

00:08:53   single digit megabits, like it's heavily compressed video.

00:08:56   You know, through the magic of modern compression

00:08:58   algorithms, you can watch the movie and it doesn't take up,

00:09:01   you know, you don't need huge amounts of bandwidth.

00:09:03   That's why people can get away with it on Wi-Fi,

00:09:04   because even though the theoretical bandwidth

00:09:06   and wifi is very high,

00:09:07   from wherever people's televisions are

00:09:10   to wherever their routers are with interference

00:09:11   from walls and stuff like that,

00:09:13   maybe you're only getting 10, 20 megabits

00:09:15   at your television.

00:09:16   Heck, maybe you're getting nine megabits.

00:09:18   That's still enough to stream most things,

00:09:21   especially if it's not 4K content, right?

00:09:23   So it was 100 megabits.

00:09:25   And apparently 100 megabit ethernet is not enough

00:09:28   to stream some of the bigger, chunkier movies

00:09:31   that are there.

00:09:32   And so the first thing I did was I wanted to check what kind of speeds I'm getting on

00:09:37   Wi-Fi because people are saying, "Oh, don't use Ethernet.

00:09:40   You should use Wi-Fi because you can get higher than 100 megabits on Wi-Fi."

00:09:44   So that's why I unplugged the Ethernet cable, connected to Wi-Fi, and then I had to figure

00:09:47   out how fast the Wi-Fi is.

00:09:49   So I needed to get a speed test application and I had to get it from the Sony app store,

00:09:55   right?

00:09:56   Because I can't do it on my Apple TV or something because that wouldn't be testing the TV's

00:09:58   Ethernet connection.

00:09:59   It would just be testing the Apple TV's Ethernet connection, which by the way, the Apple TV

00:10:02   was 100 megabits for years and years, right?

00:10:04   I hope it's still not, and I'm not entirely sure.

00:10:06   - No, I think the modern ones are,

00:10:08   I think once it went to 4K, I believe,

00:10:10   that's when they upped it.

00:10:11   - Yep, I believe that's when.

00:10:12   - Although I'm not sure there's any content

00:10:14   that I watch on my Apple TV

00:10:16   that exceeds 100 megabits anyway.

00:10:17   But yeah, so I can't, I have to download it

00:10:19   from the Sony App Store.

00:10:20   So I go to the Sony App Store, I search for speed tests,

00:10:22   and there's like, just a, you know,

00:10:25   like the usual suspects lineup

00:10:26   of sketchy-looking applications

00:10:28   that all claim to be speed tests, you know?

00:10:30   None of them are recognizable brands of any kind of thing.

00:10:33   They all just look like generic speed tests,

00:10:35   like, hmm, which one of these is least likely

00:10:37   to destroy my television?

00:10:38   So I downloaded a couple of them.

00:10:40   One of them didn't work at all.

00:10:42   One of them looks a little bit janky,

00:10:44   but one of them did actually run a speed test.

00:10:46   And on my Wi-Fi, from the position of all my routers

00:10:49   and everything, I was getting like, you know,

00:10:52   70, 80 gigabits, not gigabits, megabits,

00:10:55   70, 80 megabits per second, which is less than the ethernet.

00:10:58   So I plugged the ethernet bit in and tried that,

00:10:59   And sure enough, it gets like 9900 megabits,

00:11:01   like just like you would expect.

00:11:03   So my wifi in my position, in my television,

00:11:07   where all my routers are in my house

00:11:09   is not faster than 100 megabits.

00:11:11   So what am I supposed to do?

00:11:12   I want faster than 100 megabits into this television

00:11:17   because I don't know, I wanna watch a Broadview Core,

00:11:19   I wanna see the fancy stuff.

00:11:20   Granted, I have a Blu-ray player for all that too,

00:11:22   but I have these 10 free movie credits

00:11:23   and I'd like to see the full quality.

00:11:25   I asked this to Merlin last night on Erectif's recording,

00:11:29   which will come out sometime in the future,

00:11:30   but I'll ask you two, what should I do?

00:11:33   - Can you DFU restore your TV?

00:11:35   (laughing)

00:11:36   - Well, what would that,

00:11:37   like it's 100 megabit ethernet port.

00:11:38   That's never getting any faster, right?

00:11:40   And my wifi is not fast enough given my router location.

00:11:43   So I want to get more than 100 megabits of data

00:11:46   into my television.

00:11:47   - I get you could you put another Eero

00:11:51   connected via ethernet like directly next to the TV?

00:11:53   - I'm trying to think,

00:11:55   is there any way to otherwise pipe in ethernet?

00:11:57   Like I assume, like would a USB 3 Ethernet adapter work?

00:12:02   Probably not, but.

00:12:04   - That's the way, the thing I pursued, all right.

00:12:06   So there are, if you search, you will find plenty

00:12:09   of USB A to Ethernet adapters

00:12:11   that claim gigabit Ethernet speeds.

00:12:14   This television does have the USB A ports on it,

00:12:16   most modern televisions do.

00:12:18   And from other Sony people out there

00:12:20   who have Sony televisions, older Sony televisions,

00:12:23   they said, yeah, I got a USB to Ethernet adapter

00:12:25   and it let me get faster speeds, right?

00:12:27   Unfortunately, since this television is so new,

00:12:29   I had trouble finding people who had this television

00:12:32   and had done it successfully.

00:12:33   So people were like, oh, I've got an A80J or an A90J,

00:12:36   and I did this, and that worked.

00:12:37   And I was like, well, I don't know.

00:12:39   You know, things change.

00:12:40   The OS version is different.

00:12:42   This is a brand new TV.

00:12:43   I'm not sure what will work.

00:12:45   If you look at the USB to ether adapters

00:12:47   that you will see for sale, you know, at Amazon or whatever,

00:12:51   there's tons of them, but there's nothing

00:12:53   to really distinguish them other than the price

00:12:55   and some branding, they all kind of look the same.

00:12:57   But this is not a computer, right?

00:12:59   I don't know, I can't install drivers as far as I know

00:13:02   to make this adapter work, so it's either gonna work

00:13:04   or it's not gonna work.

00:13:06   So I ordered one and I picked the name brand,

00:13:10   I ordered the Anker one, I'm like, I've heard of them,

00:13:12   I have their power adapters or whatever,

00:13:14   this seems like a reasonable quality product.

00:13:18   Let me try it.

00:13:19   TV didn't see it at all.

00:13:20   Plug it in, nothing happens.

00:13:22   It's just totally invisible to television,

00:13:23   There's no way to make it detected as far as I can tell.

00:13:26   It just didn't work at all.

00:13:28   Then the time that it took to ship that,

00:13:30   I had been doing more Google searching.

00:13:32   I found somebody with an actual A95K,

00:13:34   and they said, "I use this specific adapter, and it works."

00:13:37   So I just bought the exact one that they had.

00:13:38   We'll put a link in the show notes.

00:13:39   It is one of those Amazon products with a giant name

00:13:42   that I'm not going to read right now,

00:13:43   but it's from Cable Matters.

00:13:45   It looks exactly the same as the Anker one,

00:13:47   but like a different color, and this one works.

00:13:49   Apparently, the theory is that you have to have

00:13:51   the RTL8153 chipset inside the adapter,

00:13:55   and that, you know, the Google TV OS will recognize,

00:13:59   and yes, you plug it in, it recognizes that it works.

00:14:01   I did a speed test, I wasn't getting any gigabit,

00:14:03   but I was peaking around seven or 800 megabits.

00:14:06   So, pretty good.

00:14:08   And that's much more convenient

00:14:09   than getting a whole other Eero thing

00:14:11   and putting the WiFi two inches away,

00:14:13   and I, you know, especially since all my, like,

00:14:16   top-end Eero 6 Pro or whatever things

00:14:19   are in use in the house.

00:14:21   I would have to either buy another fancy one

00:14:22   to get the maximum WiFi speed,

00:14:24   or use one of my older, lesser ones

00:14:26   that can't even do the most modern WiFi standards.

00:14:29   And I also don't even know what WiFi standards

00:14:31   the television supports.

00:14:33   I don't even know what the most modern one is.

00:14:34   What is the top end one now?

00:14:36   It's not AC anymore. - Oh, I don't even know.

00:14:37   - Six, yeah, they just went to numbers.

00:14:39   Anyway.

00:14:40   Or 6E, I don't know.

00:14:42   Anyway, the USB to Ethernet adapter,

00:14:46   it's a little bit weird and janky,

00:14:47   and you might not think of it, but it worked,

00:14:49   And so now that's how my television is connected.

00:14:51   - Even though that's a stupid thing,

00:14:53   you shouldn't even have to do that,

00:14:54   I'm glad that was the answer.

00:14:55   'Cause the wifi right next to it thing

00:14:57   just kinda seemed dirty.

00:14:58   It's like when you wanted to record stuff on a cassette

00:15:01   when you were younger before you knew anything

00:15:03   and had anything and it's like,

00:15:04   all right, I can hold my boombox up to the speaker

00:15:07   of another radio and hit record and maybe it'll work.

00:15:10   And it does kind of work, but not well and it seems wrong

00:15:14   and it's not the right way to do it.

00:15:16   So I'm glad you found the correct way

00:15:19   among the limited options that were available to you.

00:15:21   - Well honestly, it's pretty shameful.

00:15:23   If Sony's gonna have the service,

00:15:24   and the selling point is we have super high quality movies,

00:15:26   like what do you think about ethernet porting a TV?

00:15:28   It mostly has to do with, I think,

00:15:30   the fact that even though the panel on the 895K

00:15:33   is this fancy new Samsung Quantum.OLED thing,

00:15:35   the guts of the TV are not substantially different

00:15:39   in terms of the decoding hardware and everything

00:15:41   than they were on last year's model of Sony television.

00:15:43   So that's part of why the limit has the limitations in gaming and stuff that the LG one doesn't sell you just ahead of them

00:15:49   on there so in the computer that is inside the television, so

00:15:53   You know, that's a shame. But seriously, you know for a television this price is no reason

00:15:58   It should have a hundred megabit Ethernet port or at least it should warn you about it. They don't use this

00:16:01   It's bad the fact that the USB port to the rescue. Jeez. What a world

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00:16:33   I remember listening to it on my way

00:16:35   back when I was working in the city,

00:16:37   working on Tumblr every day in like 2007, 2008

00:16:40   kind of timeframe.

00:16:41   I was listening to the Stack Overflow podcast.

00:16:43   They were talking about building Stack Overflow itself.

00:16:45   And you can imagine what Stack Overflow is

00:16:47   to the developer community.

00:16:48   It's this massive, important resource now.

00:16:51   The people who built that and the culture and the company

00:16:54   that they created over time, they're

00:16:56   now doing all sorts of great stuff, including the Stack

00:16:59   Overflow podcast.

00:17:00   From Rails to React, from Java to Node,

00:17:02   they host important conversations

00:17:04   and fascinating guests that will help

00:17:06   you understand how technology is made and where it's headed.

00:17:09   It's now hosted by Ben Popper, Matt Kieranander, Cassidy

00:17:13   Williams, and Ciora Ford.

00:17:15   So the Stack Overflow podcast is your home for all things code.

00:17:19   They offer new episodes twice a week.

00:17:21   And of course, it's available in every podcast app.

00:17:24   Wherever you get your podcasts, you

00:17:26   can find the Stack Overflow podcast.

00:17:28   So check it out.

00:17:29   I love Stack Overflow.

00:17:31   And I love the company they built.

00:17:33   And I love the product they built.

00:17:34   And the Stack Overflow podcast is exactly as good

00:17:36   as you'd think it would be from Stack Overflow itself.

00:17:38   See for yourself, once again,

00:17:40   the Stack Overflow podcast available

00:17:42   wherever you get your podcasts.

00:17:44   Thank you so much to the Stack Overflow podcast

00:17:46   for being in my ears for so many years

00:17:48   and for sponsoring our show.

00:17:50   - So in terms of the TiVo remote codes,

00:17:56   trying to get my TiVo remote to control the power

00:17:58   and the volume and everything on my television

00:17:59   and first the codes weren't working

00:18:01   and then I swapped the batteries

00:18:02   and then the codes were kind of working

00:18:03   but it was janky, especially for like volume up and down,

00:18:06   you'd hit the all volume up button

00:18:07   and nothing would happen, you'd hit it again

00:18:08   and it would go up three notches.

00:18:09   It was not quite working right.

00:18:12   So I actually did contact TiVo support,

00:18:14   which apparently still exists, and said,

00:18:16   hey, I've got this new TV.

00:18:18   I tried entering remote code.

00:18:19   None of them quite work the way I want them to.

00:18:22   What should I do?

00:18:22   And they replied and pointed me to the article

00:18:24   that I had already seen that many other people pointed me to

00:18:26   was like, oh, here's how you can make the remote scan

00:18:28   through all the codes with this, enter in 0999,

00:18:32   and it will just go through all the codes and press

00:18:34   the channel up button every two seconds

00:18:35   to keep going through the codes.

00:18:37   First of all, that article that tells you to do that,

00:18:39   like I understand what it's saying,

00:18:39   like oh, there's 10,000 codes,

00:18:40   you're not gonna type them all on yourself,

00:18:41   so just let the remote do it for you.

00:18:43   It never said what happens, what should happen.

00:18:46   All it said is every two seconds,

00:18:48   allow at least two seconds between presses

00:18:50   and then press channel up.

00:18:51   First of all, why am I doing that?

00:18:52   Why doesn't it just go through all the codes?

00:18:53   And second of all, what is supposed to happen

00:18:56   during this process, like when it finds the code?

00:18:59   Will it stop when it finds the code?

00:19:00   How does it know when it finds the code?

00:19:02   Should I be watching for something that happens?

00:19:04   Should I be watching for the tower to turn off

00:19:05   and then I should hit a button to say,

00:19:06   hey, you found it.

00:19:07   There's no, in the article,

00:19:09   doesn't tell you what you should do.

00:19:11   So either this doesn't work at all

00:19:13   or I don't understand what I'm supposed to do

00:19:14   'cause I tried it like three times and nothing happens.

00:19:18   The television just sits there,

00:19:19   showing whatever it's showing.

00:19:21   The remote sits there and nothing ever happens.

00:19:24   So I don't understand it at all.

00:19:26   But anyway, they said that and that wasn't helpful.

00:19:29   And they said, if you have any other problems, contact Sony.

00:19:32   So they passed the buck.

00:19:34   So I don't know what I'm gonna do,

00:19:35   'cause contacting Sony seems like it will not be fruitful.

00:19:37   At least TiVo replied and had a suggestion,

00:19:41   but not a great support experience,

00:19:45   'cause I would feel like in the good old days of TiVo,

00:19:47   it would be like, it's their job to know all,

00:19:50   like they put these codes in the UI.

00:19:52   It's part of the TiVo experience.

00:19:53   It's like, don't worry, we'll figure this out for you.

00:19:54   Here, if you have a Sony television, here are the codes.

00:19:56   We figured them all out.

00:19:57   And when there's a new code, we put the new code in the UI.

00:20:00   And this is a brand new TV, and you would think,

00:20:02   oh, we're gonna be on top of this new TV.

00:20:03   we'll have the new codes for our router,

00:20:04   but nope, they just said if it still doesn't work,

00:20:07   this is all we know, if it still doesn't work, contact Sony.

00:20:09   - So, I'm sorry, you said that,

00:20:12   you mashed on the channel up button repeatedly,

00:20:14   which, okay, so far, so good,

00:20:16   channel up is an interesting choice,

00:20:18   but you said there's no way to indicate that it has worked?

00:20:23   Because my expectation is,

00:20:24   like I've done this with remotes before,

00:20:26   in fact, we'll talk about that later,

00:20:28   and what you would typically do is do like power or volume

00:20:30   or something like that,

00:20:31   something that's generic across any sort of input,

00:20:33   And then when you've hit the right one,

00:20:35   when the volume changes or the TV turns off or what have you,

00:20:38   then you hit a different button on the remote

00:20:40   to say to the remote, yeah, yeah, that was that last one.

00:20:43   That was the one.

00:20:43   Save it.

00:20:44   And you're saying that there's no option for that in the TiVo?

00:20:47   I mean, all I'm saying is the support document

00:20:49   didn't say that.

00:20:51   It just said, enter this code.

00:20:52   And then allowing at least two seconds between presses,

00:20:55   keep pressing the channel up button,

00:20:57   and it will try all sorts of codes.

00:20:58   The way you do it normally is you hold down

00:21:01   some buttons for five seconds.

00:21:02   you enter a four digit code,

00:21:03   and then you try the power button.

00:21:04   Like entering the four digit code says,

00:21:06   I'm going to be this kind of universal remote,

00:21:08   this universal remote code, right?

00:21:10   So as soon as, if you try the power button, it works,

00:21:12   you're done, 'cause you don't have to enter any more codes.

00:21:13   Like that configuration process,

00:21:15   it'll hold down the button so light turns on

00:21:16   and type in the four digit code, that's it, you're done.

00:21:18   There's no other step.

00:21:20   But the whole point of this other thing

00:21:21   is it's going to cycle through the codes.

00:21:23   And I don't, it didn't say like,

00:21:25   oh, when the television turns off,

00:21:26   the remote will just magically know,

00:21:28   and it will stop cycling.

00:21:29   Or when the television turns off,

00:21:30   quick hit this button to tell the remote,

00:21:31   "Hey, you found it."

00:21:32   It didn't say that in the support article,

00:21:33   so I don't understand if the support article says,

00:21:35   "Yeah, oh yeah, hold down the buttons that enter 0999,

00:21:38   "and then every two seconds hit channel up,

00:21:39   "and then just live there for the rest of your life

00:21:41   "hitting channel up every two seconds?"

00:21:42   I have no idea.

00:21:43   - Real-time follow-up, RIP Mac, I guess Rip Mac,

00:21:48   says in the chat, at the very bottom it says, quote,

00:21:51   "If you press channel up and your TV turns off,

00:21:53   "press enter to select the code.

00:21:55   "Press the TV power button to test the code.

00:21:56   "If your TV turns on,

00:21:57   "you have successfully programmed the remote."

00:21:59   - This is interesting,

00:22:00   a different document than the one I had.

00:22:02   'Cause the one I was pointed to was at a different URL

00:22:06   and it had the 0999 code, not the 199,

00:22:08   I guess the 199 one's for AV-ster receivers.

00:22:10   All right, so I mean, I can try that next time,

00:22:13   see if it'll go through all the codes,

00:22:14   but I do wonder if it's actually using all 1,000 of them.

00:22:18   The other thing is, how many codes is it going through

00:22:20   and how long it'll be sitting there hitting channel up?

00:22:22   Because I know a couple of them will at least work

00:22:24   for the power button and kind of work for the volume.

00:22:26   - It seems to me like it's just time

00:22:27   abandon that piece of crap TiVo am I right? No, still pretty good. Except for not 4k obviously.

00:22:34   There's got to be something that would serve these purposes without actually being a TiVo.

00:22:41   And somebody wrote in to scold me justifiably, and I don't have your name in front of me

00:22:45   I'm sorry, but to say you know Channels, which sponsored us once in the past and one of the

00:22:49   co-founders is a personal friend of mine, but Channels does darn near everything that

00:22:54   TiVo does, and arguably does it better.

00:22:57   And so, now I'm not a TiVo person,

00:22:59   I've never been a TiVo person,

00:23:00   so maybe I'm over selling here,

00:23:01   but it is worth thinking about.

00:23:04   Maybe it is time to get rid of the TiVo, Jon.

00:23:06   - Yeah, lots of people promoted the channel's UI,

00:23:08   especially as a way to not have to use the YouTube TV UI,

00:23:11   which other YouTube TV users also complain about,

00:23:14   like the guide thing only going one item at a time.

00:23:16   They say, well, you don't have to worry about that,

00:23:17   'cause if you use channels, you don't have to use their UI,

00:23:19   you can just use the channel's UI, which is really nice,

00:23:21   lots of raves for that.

00:23:23   Problem with me for channels, at least right now,

00:23:25   is the product that they have,

00:23:27   like the hardware product that they have

00:23:28   that accepts cable cards, they don't manufacture anymore

00:23:30   and haven't manufactured a long time.

00:23:32   On their website they say, "Oh, just go on eBay and get it."

00:23:34   And that's not-- - No, no, no, no,

00:23:35   that's not true. - What I'm looking for.

00:23:36   - I'm almost sure, I'm not gonna search for it

00:23:39   while we're live, but I went down this road

00:23:42   just a couple of months ago to see if I could get

00:23:44   the HD home run that takes a cable card,

00:23:46   and I am pretty sure Amazon had some in stock at the time.

00:23:50   - Well, the getchannels.com website

00:23:53   it links to eBay now, so.

00:23:55   But the whole point is it's not a product they make anymore.

00:23:57   Their website, they say, we don't make that anymore.

00:23:59   So I'm--

00:24:00   - No, actually, I'm looking at it right now.

00:24:00   It's Silicon Dust HD Home Run Prime Cable TV 3 Tuner.

00:24:04   It takes a cable card, 150 bucks on Amazon,

00:24:07   available right now.

00:24:08   - Right, but they don't make it anymore.

00:24:10   Like, it's a dead product.

00:24:12   - It doesn't, and TiVo isn't?

00:24:14   Like, first of all, TiVo is too.

00:24:14   - No, they still make TiVos.

00:24:15   You can buy one right now.

00:24:17   - Well, first of all, I don't understand why you think

00:24:19   it's a dead product if I'm looking at it in--

00:24:21   - I know, but you can't make it.

00:24:22   don't make it anymore. I don't think that's true John I really honestly I

00:24:25   understand what channel says I'm not arguing that. One, this model is no longer

00:24:29   manufactured you can still find them on eBay though that's what it says on the

00:24:33   getchannels.com website. Yes but why wouldn't you trust Silicon Dust like I'm

00:24:38   pretty sure. But why don't they make it anymore why is there no replacement for it?

00:24:42   I think they do I'm pretty sure they do. It says on their website they don't. No but

00:24:46   you're getting confused channels doesn't make the hardware channels is just

00:24:50   talking about silicon dust hardware.

00:24:52   Channels is software only.

00:24:54   So they're not the arbiter of what silicon dust is

00:24:57   or is not doing.

00:24:58   And so if you go to silicon dust website,

00:25:02   it's so busted and ancient,

00:25:03   it says that it's actually in development,

00:25:05   but it's available on Amazon right now.

00:25:10   You can buy it right now.

00:25:11   I'm tempted to send it to you right now, but I'm too cheap.

00:25:14   So it is available.

00:25:16   I don't think it's a dead product, I really don't.

00:25:18   - Is it the same product they're talking about?

00:25:19   - Yeah, 'cause I'm wondering, well, I don't--

00:25:20   - Yes, I'm pretty sure. - It's the HD Home Run Prime?

00:25:23   - Yes, that's what's on it.

00:25:24   Let me put the link in the show notes here.

00:25:26   - Why does Git Channel say,

00:25:27   "This model is no longer manufactured"?

00:25:29   - I understand what you're saying.

00:25:31   I get it, I really do.

00:25:33   I can't put an affiliate link in, that's annoying.

00:25:36   Anyway, I just sent you the link.

00:25:38   - Oh, Amazon has plenty of things

00:25:39   that aren't manufactured anymore, but anyway.

00:25:41   I mean, the real problem with the Git Channel thing,

00:25:43   from my perspective, aside from the sketchiness

00:25:46   of getting something that works with CableCard,

00:25:47   and by the way, it only has three tuners instead of six,

00:25:49   which is not great.

00:25:50   - How often do you need to record

00:25:51   more than three things at once?

00:25:53   - A surprising amount of time,

00:25:55   'cause I've had six tuners for many, many years

00:25:57   and you just get used to not having to worry about it.

00:25:59   - How do you have time to watch all of this TV?

00:26:01   - Yes, seriously.

00:26:02   - It's just sometimes there's,

00:26:03   it's not that there's so much TV,

00:26:04   it's just like television,

00:26:06   there's a popular times for shows to be on.

00:26:08   - And you watch every,

00:26:09   so you're recording like ABC, CBS, Fox,

00:26:12   and all, and I can't even, NBC.

00:26:14   - Well, not network TV, come on,

00:26:15   I'm like this and that, that's madness.

00:26:16   - I'm just saying.

00:26:18   - On cable shows, there are popular times

00:26:19   multiple things on and then you might want to be watching something else. I don't think I need six,

00:26:23   but three is pushing because I think I had a three tuner TiVo and sometimes you would bump into

00:26:27   limits. Then get two of them! Yeah, I mean it starts to add up. Anyway, the other thing about

00:26:31   the, you know, so that thing with the cable cards is the cable card box thing doesn't actually

00:26:38   record anything, it is just to ferry the signal. So then you need to run the channel software on

00:26:44   some device and to its credit the channel thing runs on tons of things. It runs with Synology,

00:26:47   you can run it on a PC,

00:26:48   I think you can run it on a bunch of Apple devices,

00:26:51   but that means that you need to have a hard drive

00:26:53   that you're gonna dedicate to this,

00:26:54   or at least have enough hard drive space to store stuff,

00:26:56   which is great, you can have as much space as you want,

00:26:58   but bad in that now you have to buy and build this thing.

00:27:00   So I did look, I'm some kind of--

00:27:01   - No, Sean, I have it running on a Mac mini,

00:27:04   the reefer Mac mini that I just bought like a month ago,

00:27:07   and you know where it saves all of its stuff?

00:27:10   To the Synology.

00:27:11   (bell ringing)

00:27:12   Because why wouldn't you?

00:27:13   - Yeah, no, you can run,

00:27:13   I think you can run it on the Synology,

00:27:15   you don't even need a Mac mini, I think.

00:27:16   potentially, but I don't trust that.

00:27:19   - Maybe when my TiVo finally dies,

00:27:20   I will probably look into this.

00:27:21   I mean, what I really want to do

00:27:22   is not have the cable card either,

00:27:24   which is kind of the direction they're going.

00:27:25   You can do the whatever TV Anywhere thing

00:27:27   where it uses the API to get the stuff,

00:27:28   but it still kind of seems like on the fringes

00:27:31   even more so than TiVo,

00:27:33   because TiVo, for all its wonkiness,

00:27:36   has a very established tech stack.

00:27:38   There's nothing in the tech stack

00:27:40   that is imminently going to be destroyed,

00:27:42   other than cable card being essentially discontinued,

00:27:44   which is a bummer.

00:27:45   But aside from that, no sort of streaming service

00:27:49   is angry that TiVo is recording channels and stuff like that.

00:27:51   Whereas I can imagine the various streaming services,

00:27:54   even the ones that do currently support whatever API

00:27:56   they're using to scrape video from the web,

00:27:58   might decide that it's not in their best interest

00:28:00   to support that anymore.

00:28:01   Already, some of them don't support it.

00:28:03   So it just seems like more moving parts and more stuff

00:28:07   to deal with.

00:28:08   Now, that said, I'm kind of interested in just using it

00:28:10   just to see the interface and just connecting it

00:28:12   to streaming services.

00:28:13   Because you don't have to use cable card or do any cable.

00:28:14   You can just sign in with your streaming service credentials

00:28:18   or also sign in with your cable credentials,

00:28:20   and it will try to pull them from the web too,

00:28:22   because you don't need to use a cable card to use this.

00:28:24   So I'm going to look into that to see how that goes,

00:28:27   because if I can get YouTube TV-ish 4K content

00:28:30   for regular shows without cable card, which is what I want,

00:28:34   because that's kind of also a dead end,

00:28:36   I may be interested in that.

00:28:37   But really, I just want to see what the UI looks like.

00:28:39   - So real-time follow-up from John Maddox,

00:28:43   who is the aforementioned co-founder of channels,

00:28:47   I said, "Is this still being manufactured?"

00:28:50   Linking him what I did on Amazon.

00:28:52   And he said, "They found more of the chips last year.

00:28:55   They've been selling it again for a year."

00:28:58   - There was a box in the back

00:28:59   that had some more chips in it.

00:29:02   - So he said, "Having Fios, which you do, Jon,

00:29:06   you're silly for not getting one for channels.

00:29:08   It's hands down the best setup."

00:29:10   And he said, "Yeah, they weren't for sale for a while."

00:29:12   and I told him you were very, very worked up about the website and he said he would

00:29:16   change it for you tonight. So by the time you look at this listener, if you look in

00:29:20   the show notes, you may not see what Jon saw, but it will be updated soon. Anyway, Jon Maddox,

00:29:27   the co-founder, said it's not a dead product or it's not any more dead than Cablecart

00:29:32   is as a whole. So there you go.

00:29:34   So the co-founder of the company says that you should get this product. Got it.

00:29:38   - No, no, no, John, again, he doesn't care whether,

00:29:42   he doesn't get a cut from HD Home Run.

00:29:44   It's a different entire company.

00:29:45   - No, I get it, that's also kind of part of the problem.

00:29:47   - It doesn't sound like you get it though,

00:29:49   'cause channels is just software.

00:29:50   - I was reading their website that said

00:29:52   it was no longer manufactured and that made,

00:29:53   and they also didn't have any information

00:29:56   about another cable card model, and that was like,

00:29:58   okay, well fine, this one isn't manufactured,

00:29:59   but I'll just buy the new one, right?

00:30:00   And they didn't have a link to that either,

00:30:02   so that makes me think, I mean, I know what you're saying,

00:30:04   like I said, cable card itself is, you know,

00:30:07   not really going to be a going concern for much longer and it kind of isn't anymore either but

00:30:12   it's what i'm currently using and tivo support it um and so i would and you can buy a brand new

00:30:18   tivo today that supports it a model that is still manufactured so tivo still got that one up there

00:30:24   i mean i hear you and as much as i love poking fun at you for using this ancient ass piece of

00:30:29   technology i really genuinely think that you would probably be better served by using channels and

00:30:36   in one of these boxes.

00:30:37   - What I would suggest to channels is,

00:30:41   for someone like me, who's a Mac person,

00:30:43   suggest a build.

00:30:44   I would build myself a little PC,

00:30:46   or suggest what is the best experience.

00:30:48   Should I use my Synology, or is mine too old in a week?

00:30:51   Should I use a Mac Mini like you?

00:30:53   That seems a pretty expensive way to do this, right?

00:30:54   And yeah, if there was a little,

00:30:56   oh, here's, if you wanna build yourself a PC

00:30:59   that works great with this setup,

00:31:02   here's a cheap way to do it.

00:31:03   'Cause I don't wanna go through the research

00:31:05   building my own PC that does all this stuff,

00:31:07   and I'm not quite ready to buy a new Synology yet.

00:31:10   I don't wanna spend thousand plus dollars

00:31:12   on a Mac Mini to do it.

00:31:13   So, faced with that kind of situation where,

00:31:16   oh, they don't even make it, it's a different company,

00:31:19   it's all different people doing the things they want,

00:31:20   but if I just wanna go in and say,

00:31:21   I don't wanna deal with any of this,

00:31:22   I just want something that's as easy as TiVo

00:31:24   or as close as I can get,

00:31:25   they're still a little far from that in terms of the setup.

00:31:27   Obviously, if that's not what you want,

00:31:29   if you want the ability to customize it,

00:31:31   you can build it the way you want,

00:31:32   you can put the storage that you want,

00:31:34   then channels is great.

00:31:34   And apparently everybody loves the UI,

00:31:36   which is the main reason I'm looking into it.

00:31:38   But if you're just looking for that TiVo type experience,

00:31:41   now that TiVo is slowly fading away,

00:31:44   no one is there to take its place.

00:31:46   - I hear what you're saying,

00:31:48   but consider that I use a Mac Mini

00:31:50   because I don't wanna deal with supporting anything else.

00:31:53   - And you have a Mac Mini.

00:31:54   Like if I had one, I would use it.

00:31:55   - Right.

00:31:56   But if I wasn't doing it on this,

00:31:58   I believe they have a build for Raspberry Pis.

00:32:00   And of course, if I'm not gonna solve a problem

00:32:02   a with the Synology then I'll solve with Raspberry Pi. But I genuinely think you're making this

00:32:08   out to be much harder than it really is. I understand what you're saying, I really honestly

00:32:12   do. But if you got one of these tuner things, these HD home runs, which again, completely

00:32:18   and utterly different company than channels. If you got one of these and put your cable

00:32:21   card that's currently in the TiVo into this and hooked it up to any computer in the house,

00:32:27   you have so many computers in that house. I mean, any computer that's running 24/7 or

00:32:32   really running any time that you--

00:32:33   - I would have to be in the basement.

00:32:35   This stuff, that type of thing can't be

00:32:36   in the upstairs with the people.

00:32:38   - What thing?

00:32:39   What do you think--

00:32:41   - Anything that is not in the,

00:32:42   like any computer that's, unless it's completely silent,

00:32:46   any other computer doesn't stay up.

00:32:47   - Well, is Tina's iMac on 24/7?

00:32:50   - It's not an iMac.

00:32:51   She has a Mac Studio and it's under the desk

00:32:53   and it's on 24/7 and it's silent.

00:32:54   - So then, run the channel software on the Mac Studio.

00:32:58   You've already got your problem solved.

00:32:59   - Oh, no, I'm not gonna do that.

00:33:00   - Why?

00:33:01   'Cause you restarting the computer

00:33:03   while someone's watching TV, right?

00:33:06   - How often do you restart the computer?

00:33:07   - I don't know what she does on her computer.

00:33:09   It's her computer, but she does not want,

00:33:11   and I don't want the state of her computer

00:33:13   to affect people watching television.

00:33:15   It's unacceptable entanglement.

00:33:17   - You are being incredibly difficult.

00:33:19   - I mean, I run the Plex server on her thing,

00:33:21   but a Plex, I don't have-- - Oh my God, John!

00:33:23   Why is that okay?

00:33:25   Why is it different?

00:33:26   - I don't have an SLA on my Plex server,

00:33:28   and I'm the only person who knows how to use Plex,

00:33:30   So it's not like it has anyone else's stuff on it.

00:33:32   - Holy smokes, my dude.

00:33:33   (laughing)

00:33:34   (sighing)

00:33:34   Am I just getting--

00:33:35   - I also, I mean, I also run the Plex server

00:33:36   in the Synology too.

00:33:37   So if the Plex server is,

00:33:39   I have so many Plex servers in my house.

00:33:41   If that Plex server is down, you can go to the one on,

00:33:43   I have it on two Synologies.

00:33:44   So you can go to either one.

00:33:45   - Oh my God. - And yes,

00:33:46   they all point to the same data.

00:33:47   So you can go to any of those.

00:33:50   - Why? - Any three Plex servers.

00:33:51   - I don't even have two Plex servers running in this house

00:33:53   and I'm obsessed with Plex.

00:33:54   - You should, it's handy.

00:33:56   I mean, I have everything being mirrored, right?

00:33:58   - So I have, her Plex server points to the Synology

00:34:02   with just an SMB mount of the Synology, right?

00:34:04   - Yeah, that's the way mine works.

00:34:05   - And then Synology obviously runs Plex

00:34:08   with its local storage.

00:34:09   And then I have a second Synology

00:34:11   that I clone the first Synology to,

00:34:12   and that runs its own copy of Plex on the clone of the data,

00:34:15   which is kept in sync with the synchronization service

00:34:18   that we couldn't remember the name of that at the time.

00:34:20   - Well, all I'm saying is this doesn't have to be

00:34:24   as difficult as you're making it out to be.

00:34:25   I understand how you got to where you are,

00:34:28   but you were making this way harder than it needs to be.

00:34:30   - I'll say, what I really just want is a 4K TiVo.

00:34:32   Do you have the co-founder of TiVo on the phone with you?

00:34:34   Oh no, they're long gone.

00:34:36   - No, but I can tell you this,

00:34:39   I don't know if actually channels does do 4K,

00:34:41   but I bet you if anything could feed at 4K,

00:34:43   I would be surprised if it didn't accept it and eat it.

00:34:46   - I think to get 4K, it would, I mean, I don't know,

00:34:48   but I don't think cable car can even handle that.

00:34:50   I think it would have to be the streaming service thing,

00:34:51   'cause get channels can just pull stuff

00:34:53   from your streaming service

00:34:55   and any of the various streaming service.

00:34:56   That's how it works with YouTube TV and stuff like that.

00:34:58   - Yes, although I think that 720,

00:35:01   which is not channels is fault,

00:35:02   I think that's what the streaming service

00:35:03   gives you via TV everywhere,

00:35:05   but I could be wrong about that.

00:35:07   I don't know, all I'm saying is the software

00:35:08   is super easy to install,

00:35:10   migrating it is hilarious.

00:35:12   Like when I migrated from the old Mac Mini

00:35:13   to the new Mac Mini,

00:35:14   doing the Plex migration was not a nightmare,

00:35:17   but was not fun.

00:35:18   Doing the channels migration was basically

00:35:20   install the channel software

00:35:21   and then point it at the right folder

00:35:22   and then magic happens.

00:35:23   It's as though it was on that machine forever.

00:35:26   So it really is really, and again, John, the other John, is a friend of mine.

00:35:31   I'm a little bit biased, but I went kicking and screaming into using channels.

00:35:35   He kept beating me up about it, like, "Why are you using Plex? Why are you using Plex? Use this, use this."

00:35:39   And I don't think channels is a reasonable replacement for Plex, although you could do that.

00:35:44   But I will say, as a DVR, channels really is fantastic. Plus you can set it up to do fun things

00:35:50   like make a virtual channel that just plays Letterkenny 24/7, which I have done,

00:35:55   or whatever your particular vice may be.

00:35:57   So genuinely, I mean, they are a former sponsor,

00:36:00   the guy is a friend of mine, so take all this

00:36:01   with as much salt as you desire,

00:36:03   but hand to God, it really is great software,

00:36:06   and it's worth trying out.

00:36:08   - Yeah, I will try as much of it as I can

00:36:10   without changing any hardware setups,

00:36:12   and just to see if I like the UI or whatever,

00:36:13   and then I'll see where I go with it,

00:36:14   kind of like I did with YouTube TV.

00:36:16   I knew when I got the new setup, I was gonna try it.

00:36:18   You know, I stumbled on the UI.

00:36:21   - I would definitely give it a roll.

00:36:24   Final TV thing, the mystery of the box.

00:36:27   How does that box work?

00:36:29   The top and the bottom halves don't seem to stay together

00:36:32   and yet somehow it got into my house.

00:36:35   The answer was that apparently I blacked out

00:36:36   when the TV was delivered

00:36:38   because when it was delivered to my house,

00:36:40   it had two of those thin plastic mesh straps

00:36:45   that come on packages wrapped around the thing.

00:36:49   So I'll put a tweet in the show notes

00:36:52   you can see exactly what it looks like.

00:36:54   Yeah, and I cut those off,

00:36:57   and that's what was holding the top to the bottom,

00:36:58   but I totally forgot that I had cut those off.

00:37:01   - Oh, sweet.

00:37:02   - I mean, no, I mean, you can't, they're not,

00:37:04   like, you have to cut them off to open the box.

00:37:06   - Are you able to properly disconnect those

00:37:10   and throw them away without cutting your hand?

00:37:12   'Cause I'm not.

00:37:13   - Yeah, you just gotta be careful.

00:37:14   - Like, literally every time I operate

00:37:16   those plastic strap things, I'm like, all right, careful,

00:37:18   don't get a cut, like, it's like a paper cut.

00:37:21   - Easy, easy.

00:37:22   - Hiding it through your hands or something?

00:37:23   - Yeah, somehow I do that and I always cut my finger.

00:37:26   It's like a big paper cut, it's terrible.

00:37:28   It's like the worst, and I have never operated those things

00:37:31   and successfully gotten them from the box

00:37:33   to the trash can all the way without getting a cut.

00:37:35   - Yeah, those things are a nightmare.

00:37:38   All right, anything else about your TV or are you solid?

00:37:41   - I think that's it for now.

00:37:43   - Are you enjoying it?

00:37:44   - Yeah, we watch some stuff on it.

00:37:45   I mean, you know, having a TV.

00:37:47   - Some?

00:37:48   - Yeah, I mean, I've been podcasting a lot,

00:37:49   but other people have been watching it,

00:37:51   But having a fancy TV really, you know, now it was easier before when I could be like,

00:37:55   "Oh, this show is in 1080.

00:37:57   Oh, this is in HDR."

00:37:58   Like, all the things that I never noticed or cared about before.

00:38:01   Now there's this hierarchy of like, you're more excited to watch shows that take advantage

00:38:07   of the features of your new TV and less excited to do ones that...

00:38:10   Because honestly, like a 1080 SDR show, it looks better than it did on my old TV, but

00:38:16   not wow you better, because it's 1080 and it's SDR and it's being upscaled and, you

00:38:20   know.

00:38:21   - I hear you.

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00:40:19   The two of you went on vacation recently

00:40:25   and I was curious to hear your respective tech experiences.

00:40:30   Every year when Jon does this trip,

00:40:32   we get a camera report of how the camera situation

00:40:35   has changed and evolved and how it performed.

00:40:37   And Casey, when you take your vacation,

00:40:39   usually I know you take good drone photos

00:40:43   and you probably connected at least four

00:40:45   or five Apple TVs to a hotel or rental TV at some point

00:40:49   through your various HDMI cables

00:40:50   that you keep in your travel pack.

00:40:52   So I'm wondering what kind of tech experiences

00:40:56   do you have in your vacations?

00:40:57   - I mean, let me start 'cause I don't think I have that much

00:41:00   to be honest with you.

00:41:01   The big to do with regard to my travel a couple of weeks

00:41:05   back was the aforementioned issues with HomeKit

00:41:08   and the Apple TV.

00:41:09   And the Apple TV being convinced that my home

00:41:12   was actually now in Cape Charles rather than in Richmond,

00:41:15   which was super fun.

00:41:17   But other than that, not that much was that different.

00:41:20   Having my desktop computer come with me was kind of neat

00:41:23   because I only have a laptop now,

00:41:25   and that is my only computer. - Desktop laptop.

00:41:27   - Yep, yep, yep.

00:41:28   So that was kind of neat, I kind of liked that.

00:41:29   It was nice to be able to process photos as much as I do

00:41:34   with my Kakamimi setup, and then because I was connected

00:41:37   to my VPN at home, I could copy and upload

00:41:40   all of those photos to the Synology as though I was at home from the beach. So I

00:41:45   didn't have to do like, you know, several hours of going through all of them when

00:41:49   I got home. I just did a little bit each day with the pictures I had taken and

00:41:52   then just uploaded them just like I always do. Granted it was a little bit

00:41:57   slower from the beach because they were on a, you know, a cable connection with

00:42:00   not a particularly strong upload side connection but nevertheless... You couldn't

00:42:04   find a really fast bench there. Yeah, right exactly. No, unfortunately not. But

00:42:09   nevertheless, you know, it's nice having your desktop with you, which I enjoy. And

00:42:12   then I wrote a blog post about this like a week ago, and I'll put this in the show

00:42:16   notes, but I have, as Marco mentioned, a Go pack. And what I mean by that is I have

00:42:21   a, it's actually a Harry's, former sponsor Harry's shaving, I have a Harry's

00:42:27   toiletry kit that just so happens to be like a perfect size to carry all of my

00:42:31   travel cables and things and whatnots. And so it used to be that I had just an

00:42:38   obscene amount of cables in there. And in short, what I did was I would get, I had one of those,

00:42:45   like, plug it into the wall in boxes and then it had five USB-A connections on it. And so I would

00:42:52   typically use four of them. At the very least, I would use one for Aaron's phone, one for Aaron's

00:42:57   watch, one for my phone, one for my watch. And then I would have some USB-A extension cables so

00:43:02   that the box would be on my side of the bed, but I could, you know, put a couple extensions and then

00:43:07   and then a lightning cable on the end of those extensions

00:43:09   so I could get the connection all the way

00:43:11   to Erin's side of the bed

00:43:12   so she can put her phone down when she's ready

00:43:14   rather than having to hand it to me for me to plug in.

00:43:16   And it was just cables upon cables upon cables upon cables,

00:43:20   and it was annoying.

00:43:22   And what I ended up doing, as we spoke about

00:43:25   a few episodes ago,

00:43:25   is getting these absurdly overpriced Mophie things.

00:43:28   And that was super nice

00:43:30   because all I had to do was plug in two of those.

00:43:32   And then they have MagSafe,

00:43:34   they have the Apple Watch chargers on them,

00:43:36   and that worked out real well and I liked that.

00:43:39   I did bring the Apple TV and connected that via HDMI.

00:43:42   I connected the Switch with the Switch dock via HDMI.

00:43:47   Oh, and the other thing I did was,

00:43:50   Merlin turned me onto this idea.

00:43:52   I brought with me, I don't remember the exact model name,

00:43:57   but it's on the blog post that I'll link in the show notes,

00:43:59   I brought my own universal remote,

00:44:01   which I use now when I go to hotels or Airbnbs and whatnot,

00:44:05   because people say, and maybe this is BS,

00:44:07   but people say that remote controls

00:44:10   are some of the most disgusting things

00:44:11   in like a hotel room or what have you.

00:44:13   And because of that, I've decided, yep, no thanks,

00:44:16   I'll just bring my own, which is a little bit tinfoil hat,

00:44:18   I'll be the first to tell you.

00:44:19   But I did that and that lets you program in

00:44:23   what TV or whatever you're using

00:44:25   based on a four or five digit code.

00:44:26   And it also does the whole scanning dance

00:44:29   like we were talking about earlier.

00:44:30   But I brought that and used that on the TV there

00:44:33   and that worked great.

00:44:34   And unlike last year, I didn't lose one of the Apple TV remotes in the house, so I didn't have to spend $70 when I got home.

00:44:41   That's an expensive loss.

00:44:42   Yeah, well, I was really pissed. And this was right after it came out, too. I was really, really pissed about it.

00:44:47   But nonetheless, it worked out real well.

00:44:51   The drone, I didn't use it quite as much. It was really windy when we were there,

00:44:54   and windier than my little Mavic Mini or DJI Mini 2 could handle.

00:45:00   But I did take a few shots and I gotta tell you, even though I don't use the drone that often,

00:45:05   about a year and change on, maybe a year and a half on, I am still glad I bought it and I still do

00:45:10   enjoy using it. And I still think aerial photography is super fun, partially because it's just not

00:45:16   something that a lot of people are capable of doing in the sense that they haven't spent obscene

00:45:19   amount of money on a drone. But I do enjoy it quite a bit and I wish I had had the opportunity

00:45:26   to get out more, but like I said, it was just the weather was super crummy in terms of wind. Like,

00:45:30   Like it was fine in, you know, human terms, but in for the drone it was really bad and that was that was unfortunate

00:45:37   But I think that was mostly it. The only problem I had was

00:45:41   We we when we were up when we're driving up. I like to use my GoPro as kind of a poor man's

00:45:49   Dashcam and what I'll do is I'll put the GoPro pointed out the front of Aaron's car and I'll put it on time-lapse mode

00:45:55   So it takes a picture of photo still every like second and my theory is

00:45:59   is it's better than nothing if, god forbid, we get in some sort of accident. I'll have some sort of

00:46:03   documentation of what happened, right? And the problem with that, though, is that on a two and a

00:46:07   half hour trip, which in this case ended up being three and a half hours because of traffic,

00:46:11   the GoPro will deplete its battery during the span of that time. And so I typically use a battery

00:46:18   pack that I keep in my laptop bag, which is also mentioned in this blog post. I'll connect that to

00:46:21   the GoPro and it'll keep the GoPro charged fine. But in this case, I thought to myself, "I wonder

00:46:27   if I could use my travel computer charger, which is a very unremarkable, what is it,

00:46:35   GAN, I don't remember, something nitride or something?

00:46:38   Gallium nitride?

00:46:39   Something like that, yeah, yeah.

00:46:41   So basically it's a physically small charger, and I thought, man, I wonder if I could use

00:46:46   that to plug in, so it's an AC adapter, and I wonder if I could plug in the GoPro in my

00:46:51   iPad, which I was using for most of the trip, or maybe even my computer if I felt it, plug

00:46:56   both of those into the AC adapter, and then we have a very, very old inverter. So this

00:47:02   is a thing you plug it into the cigarette lighter, and it has an AC outlet on the other

00:47:05   end. And I thought, "Well, I wonder if I could plug this in and power the GoPro off of the

00:47:10   car rather than this battery pack, and then plug in my iPad as well, which would be kind

00:47:14   of nice." Because my iPad now, since my switch to Verizon, it has cellular service. And I

00:47:20   got to tell you, Marco, have you known how wonderful it is to have cellular service on

00:47:24   device other than your phone. Imagine, Marco, how freaking great it would be to

00:47:28   have that on your desktop laptop. Are we are you talking about Verizon's ultra

00:47:31   fast worldwide 5G network? That's exactly right. But seriously, I really wish I had the option for that on a

00:47:38   computer because I know it would be obscenely expensive and I would grumble

00:47:42   about it for months but I would be so happy to have it. No, it wouldn't have to be. It's

00:47:46   only like $129 premium on the iPad. Yeah, but you know they would charge $250

00:47:50   on a Mac. Well, of course they would but like it doesn't it doesn't have to be.

00:47:53   You know, I feel like we do a slight disservice

00:47:57   whenever we make it seem like this is some huge reach

00:48:01   to add cellular to a Mac.

00:48:02   It's not.

00:48:03   It's been done on PCs forever,

00:48:05   and you can do it on Macs with those USB dongle modem things

00:48:09   that they've had forever.

00:48:11   I don't know, do those still exist?

00:48:13   I used to use those back in the day.

00:48:14   I don't know if they-- - I don't even know.

00:48:16   - They probably do, but anyway.

00:48:17   It's not like this is a hard thing

00:48:19   to add cellular to laptops.

00:48:20   It can be done.

00:48:21   And yeah, there's a couple of minor things

00:48:23   have to do with Mac OS to make it aware of like,

00:48:25   hey maybe don't download the latest episode of Mad Men

00:48:28   from iTunes over cellular and burn up your whole data usage.

00:48:30   - Not that you've ever done that.

00:48:31   - No, definitely not.

00:48:33   But they already have almost all of that infrastructure

00:48:36   in place in the recent URL session and URL connection APIs.

00:48:41   All that stuff is already there for detecting

00:48:44   metered connections and limited connections

00:48:45   and stuff like that.

00:48:47   So anyway, it's not that much work to add cellular

00:48:50   to the laptops, just like what are we waiting for?

00:48:52   just do it it's fine yes yes please but anyway so I wanted to power all this we

00:48:56   have my inverter and the inverter we haven't used that in years like it still

00:49:01   works but I think the last thing that was plugged into it was a breast pump

00:49:04   when Aaron was breastfeeding so like it's it hasn't been used in a while but

00:49:08   nevertheless I tried plugging in this like I don't know 80 90 watt Gann charger

00:49:13   and the inverter was like you know nope that's way too much and so none of this

00:49:17   was a problem but I have since purchased and I'll put a link in the show notes a

00:49:21   a pure sine wave inverter, which is very cool, and that has two AC outlets on it and supposedly

00:49:27   is up to 300 watts and actually does it actually has a 60 watt USB-C PD port on it in and of itself

00:49:34   so I may not even need to plug in my GaN charger if I'm only plugging in one device. But anyway,

00:49:39   I'm going to try that out and next time we're on a longer trip and see if that works because

00:49:43   that would be kind of cool. But I don't know, for the most part it was basically same old stuff,

00:49:47   But I tell you, when you do have your travel setup locked in and squared away, which I feel like I do pretty well now,

00:49:54   it is super nice. And again, I preach the gospel of the Go Pack. Just have a package or a packet or a bag or what have you

00:50:02   that has cables that you never ever use for anything else. You never ever use for anything else.

00:50:11   One more time, you never use it for anything else. And then, you know at a moment's notice,

00:50:17   all you have to do is grab that bag. You don't have to worry about, "Oh, I gotta undo the thing

00:50:20   by the bed," or, "Oh, I gotta do this, I gotta do that." No, you just grab the bag. You grab the bag

00:50:24   and you're set. I cannot preach this gospel loudly enough. - I, too, do that. Like, I have--so,

00:50:29   first of all, like, I used to be a little bit more of a backpack nerd, and I had, you know,

00:50:33   three or four different bags. You know, I would watch Chase Reeves' reviews on YouTube and get

00:50:37   all the cool bags he recommended, and I loved how, you know, how cool the different ones were.

00:50:41   And I realized over time that it was kind of a pain in the butt to have a bunch of different

00:50:47   bags to have to keep stuff shuffled between or never quite have the stuff you think you

00:50:51   have or have to maintain duplicate copies of everything.

00:50:54   So I went down to just having one backpack.

00:50:56   And that's the backpack I bring to everything.

00:50:58   And in that backpack is what you're talking about.

00:51:01   A complete set of everything, cables, chargers, adapters.

00:51:06   And those things are only used outside of my home.

00:51:09   They are never used in the home.

00:51:11   They are never taken out of the backpack

00:51:13   because then they will never go back into the backpack.

00:51:15   And then when I'm out somewhere, I won't have them.

00:51:17   And so, I do the same thing and it is so, so worth it.

00:51:22   - And it's expensive.

00:51:23   A lot of these things, like Apple dongles,

00:51:25   are super expensive.

00:51:26   These freaking $150 Mophie things that I do love,

00:51:29   but obviously that's silly expensive.

00:51:32   But I do genuinely think, as frugal as I am,

00:51:36   spending the money on having a complete go pack

00:51:39   that is redundant for things that you would use

00:51:41   in the house, I can't speak it highly enough.

00:51:44   - I mean, and the good thing is too,

00:51:45   like over time, we need fewer of these things.

00:51:48   And this is, by the way, this is part of the reason

00:51:50   why I push so hard on getting rid of lightning.

00:51:52   Because if we get rid of lightning,

00:51:53   I need even fewer of these things.

00:51:55   But now that everything is USB-C everywhere,

00:51:59   we have USB-C multi-port chargers, as you mentioned,

00:52:02   like the new generation of GaN chargers is even smaller

00:52:06   and can fit even more ports and even more wattage.

00:52:09   Like, so we have this amazing abundance

00:52:11   of great charging equipment and technology now,

00:52:15   and it's really just kind of waiting

00:52:16   for Apple to make it simpler.

00:52:17   Like, you know, the thorns on my side

00:52:19   are the, are Lightning and the Apple Watch.

00:52:22   Like, those things needing their own

00:52:24   special charging things are annoying,

00:52:26   but otherwise, like, so many things

00:52:28   that we used to need in the past, we don't need.

00:52:30   And with this new generation of laptops,

00:52:32   you don't even need most of the dongles anymore.

00:52:33   Like, you need a way to get a USB-A sometimes,

00:52:37   but that's about it.

00:52:38   I have my SD card now built in,

00:52:41   HDMI's built in if I ever need it,

00:52:42   although I probably won't, but you do,

00:52:44   other people use it.

00:52:45   So a lot of that stuff went away now,

00:52:47   it's new generation, so hopefully it'll keep

00:52:49   moving this direction and get more and more standardized,

00:52:51   more USB-C stuff, fewer custom chargers from Apple,

00:52:55   and fewer reasons to carry around

00:52:56   the mini USB adapters for other crap.

00:52:59   - Yep, yep, yep, yep.

00:53:01   John, how was your trip?

00:53:02   - I'm gonna comment on the travel bag thing first,

00:53:03   'cause you guys talk about this a lot,

00:53:04   and Merlin talks about it a lot,

00:53:05   And if it's a thing that makes you feel good to have,

00:53:10   which obviously it does for both of you, then fine.

00:53:13   But I would say, practically speaking,

00:53:15   I don't think either one of you travels enough.

00:53:18   This is a requirement in your life.

00:53:19   No, I agree.

00:53:20   You're not a spy that the CIA is going to call you

00:53:23   until your identity is burned and you have to leave

00:53:24   in a moment's notice.

00:53:25   You want to make sure you have all the adapters.

00:53:27   Like, it's just a fun thing that you're doing,

00:53:29   either to keep Dave and Dogs at bay

00:53:30   or just because it's a fun convenience

00:53:32   that you spend a little bit extra money for

00:53:33   and it gives Marco something to put in his backpacks.

00:53:35   but I certainly do travel. - Backpack singular.

00:53:38   - Yeah, sorry.

00:53:39   - Backpack monogamous now.

00:53:40   I've given up my old ways.

00:53:42   - I travel so little, and when I do travel,

00:53:45   I bring the stuff that I need to put in me,

00:53:47   and it's not a big deal, but you know,

00:53:49   if this is a thing that you're into

00:53:50   and you wanna have a go bag, you can have a go bag.

00:53:52   I do not have a go bag.

00:53:54   When I go, I put things in a bag.

00:53:55   It's a little bit different.

00:53:57   - Boo. - Sorry, and it's cool,

00:53:59   it's fun, I'm just saying, like,

00:54:00   if you're listening to this,

00:54:01   we preach the same gospel, like,

00:54:02   oh, you really need backups or whatever,

00:54:04   I'm gonna say this is a different category of things.

00:54:05   Like, back up your family photos,

00:54:07   but if you don't have a go bag, you'll probably be fine.

00:54:09   Unless you're like a frequent business traveler,

00:54:10   in which case you should definitely have this,

00:54:11   because you will forget stuff,

00:54:13   but none of us are frequent business travelers.

00:54:15   - By the way, I travel more than both of you.

00:54:17   - I know, you go back and forth.

00:54:19   (laughing)

00:54:20   But when you do that, you're not bringing your go bag,

00:54:23   'cause you've got stuff at both places.

00:54:24   - No, I'm bringing my backpack every time.

00:54:26   You know what's also in my backpack?

00:54:27   The car key, the house key, like an inhaler.

00:54:30   - Well, I mean, do you have to have a special go bag

00:54:33   to keep your wallet and car keys in?

00:54:34   No, everyone just puts them in,

00:54:36   brings them with them when they go and--

00:54:37   - No, but if I'm gonna take a boat across the bay first,

00:54:42   I wanna make sure that--

00:54:42   - But you're not bringing,

00:54:44   make sure you have adapters to connect to your iPad

00:54:46   and your phone and your watch charger.

00:54:48   That's not essential for you to bring with you

00:54:51   because there's a watch charger and an iPad charger

00:54:54   and all that stuff at both places you're going.

00:54:56   - I know I can take the exact same bag with me,

00:54:59   whether I'm just going to Westchester

00:55:01   or whether I'm flying across the country.

00:55:02   I know I can take that same bag and have the things I need.

00:55:05   And the things you're talking about are not like

00:55:07   a massive amount of size or weight or cost.

00:55:10   You're talking about like three cables, basically.

00:55:13   - I just feel like you could also pack that bag

00:55:14   when you need to go.

00:55:15   - But why would you?

00:55:16   Why wouldn't you?

00:55:17   For someone who, I think, and I am a very nervous traveler,

00:55:20   but I think of the three of us, you are the worst.

00:55:22   For someone who is such a nervous traveler,

00:55:24   just cross this off the list.

00:55:25   - I never travel anywhere.

00:55:27   Not traveling is the most relaxing.

00:55:28   (laughing)

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00:57:26   (upbeat music)

00:57:30   So speaking of traveling, one, I mean,

00:57:31   you know, I've been going to Long Island every summer

00:57:34   for many, many years now.

00:57:35   We rent places down there.

00:57:36   Used to have-- we had like two steady places that we rented.

00:57:40   One of them we outgrew, and the other one

00:57:42   that people stopped renting it, basically,

00:57:44   which is kind of a bummer.

00:57:46   But so we've rented many other places in between.

00:57:50   And if you're listening to this and you have a rental house,

00:57:53   please make sure that in this day and age,

00:57:56   your internet stuff works.

00:57:57   It amazes me how many places,

00:58:01   I've never been in a place with good internet.

00:58:03   And I'm like, do people ever live in this house?

00:58:06   In one case I knew they did.

00:58:07   This was someone's actual house where they lived,

00:58:08   they just rented it out for the summer.

00:58:10   But how do they tolerate not having good internet

00:58:12   in their house?

00:58:14   And maybe it's like they make it bad

00:58:16   when the summer renters come,

00:58:19   and then they make it good again.

00:58:20   And how would they make it bad and good?

00:58:21   Well, there seems to be this thing with people--

00:58:23   - Why would they make it bad?

00:58:25   - Well, I'll explain it to you.

00:58:26   - There seems to be this thing that every place

00:58:29   that I've ever rented, they let you use their house.

00:58:34   You're in there, you're using their house.

00:58:35   If you've ever had a rental house,

00:58:36   there's usually some part of the house

00:58:37   or some part that's locked up that has the owner's stuff

00:58:40   that you're not supposed to go into, right?

00:58:42   That makes sense, don't touch the good china,

00:58:44   this is where the stuff from our bedroom is,

00:58:46   don't go in there, that's fine, that all makes sense.

00:58:49   But 100% of the time in all the rental houses

00:58:52   I've ever been in, the internet router,

00:58:55   internet connection stuff is one of those things

00:58:57   that they lock up.

00:58:59   - Oh really?

00:58:59   I don't think I've ever seen that.

00:59:00   - Always.

00:59:01   - No, I've always seen it like, you know,

00:59:02   shoved behind the TV.

00:59:03   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:04   - And all the rental has it been, it is locked up center.

00:59:07   It's locked in a basement, it's locked in a cabinet,

00:59:09   it's just all locked up.

00:59:10   And you would think, okay, well,

00:59:12   that's so like the renters don't screw it up

00:59:14   because non-techie people are gonna come in

00:59:15   and they're gonna, something's not gonna work

00:59:17   and they're like, I can fix it and they'll screw it up

00:59:19   and then they're gonna call the owners and say,

00:59:20   hey, the internet doesn't work

00:59:21   and then it's just a big hassle.

00:59:22   so lock it up so they can't screw it up, right?

00:59:25   That would be fine, except it's pretty screwed up

00:59:27   almost all the time.

00:59:28   And the second problem is, where they lock it up

00:59:31   is often someplace that doesn't acknowledge the fact that,

00:59:34   hey, do you realize that's where your Wi-Fi is coming from?

00:59:36   You've put it in the basement

00:59:37   in a locked room in the corner,

00:59:39   you think I'm gonna get that Wi-Fi in the living room

00:59:41   on the other side of the house anymore?

00:59:42   No, you buried the router, that's the source of your Wi-Fi.

00:59:46   Oh, just put it like a repeater.

00:59:47   No, the repeater doesn't help

00:59:48   when it's on the other side of the house.

00:59:49   It's like 100 feet and three floors

00:59:51   from the actual source of the wifi.

00:59:53   And I know this because what I always do

00:59:54   when I go into these houses is I say,

00:59:55   where the hell is this people's internet stuff?

00:59:57   Like what are they using and let me find it?

00:59:59   Like let me set it free.

01:00:00   (laughing)

01:00:01   And it's always locked up.

01:00:02   So this year we went to a house,

01:00:04   the same house we went to last year,

01:00:06   and its internet is so bad,

01:00:09   just it might as well be useless.

01:00:10   A lot of the time it's just you can't load any webpage,

01:00:13   it's just down.

01:00:14   And is that because the actual internet is down

01:00:17   from their provider?

01:00:18   I don't think so.

01:00:20   Part of it might have to do with the fact

01:00:21   where they lock up their stuff, right?

01:00:24   The clue, if you search the house and you're like,

01:00:26   where the hell is it locked up?

01:00:27   'Cause there are sections of it that are closed off,

01:00:29   like it must be in there, I guess,

01:00:30   but no, based on signal strength,

01:00:31   that doesn't seem like that's where it is.

01:00:33   They use Eero, so you can find an Eero,

01:00:35   so like I found an Eero, but it's just a,

01:00:37   you know, it's one of the satellite things,

01:00:38   it's not the thing, like there's no Ethernet cable

01:00:41   going into it, right?

01:00:42   So they're using Eero, and the WiFi signal strength

01:00:45   is good everywhere, 'cause Eero is good at blanking it

01:00:47   with WiFi, but where is the actual,

01:00:48   where does the internet come from?

01:00:50   And if you pick up that Eero and turn it over,

01:00:52   you see the ominous word in Sharpie

01:00:55   written on the bottom of this Eero, which is shed.

01:00:58   What?

01:01:00   So their internet stuff was in their backyard

01:01:03   in a locked shed, far from the house.

01:01:06   It's a wooden shed, it's locked up,

01:01:09   it's got a padlock on it, and that's where they're into it.

01:01:13   Is cable buried under the ground?

01:01:16   Is cable internet?

01:01:17   Like, how does the internet get to there?

01:01:19   But either way, when it goes down

01:01:21   and the light on the arrow turns red

01:01:22   and you can't get anywhere,

01:01:23   there's nothing you can do about it.

01:01:25   And when it's up, it's just, the speeds are awful.

01:01:28   Like I would do the thing, speaking of cases,

01:01:30   like reviewing photos on vacation, that's what I do.

01:01:32   You take pictures during the day,

01:01:33   I load them onto my laptop that I brought with me.

01:01:36   I sort through them or whatever,

01:01:37   usually have a slideshow at night

01:01:38   showing the day's photos to the family, right?

01:01:40   But also, the other function I'm doing is

01:01:42   I load them onto the computer

01:01:43   and then I usually leave the computer plugged in and on

01:01:46   so it can shove them up the iCloud photo library, right?

01:01:48   In this house, if you leave this thing open

01:01:51   while you're asleep, it will upload like three photos.

01:01:53   Like the upload speeds and the connection is so bad

01:01:56   that it's like, it's pointless, right?

01:01:59   So when we go there, this is the house that we're in,

01:02:00   but the rest of my family's in another house

01:02:02   that's like a couple blocks away.

01:02:04   Their internet connection at least works well enough

01:02:06   to upload, so what I would do is I would go over their house,

01:02:08   plug my laptop in, shove it in a corner, and let it upload,

01:02:10   because at least it would progress over time.

01:02:13   So that continues to be a frustration,

01:02:15   people locking their internet stuff in obscure locations

01:02:18   'cause I mean, again, I get it,

01:02:20   I understand they don't want people screwing with it,

01:02:22   but it just plain doesn't work half the time.

01:02:24   And then you get kids there,

01:02:25   and they're all on their devices,

01:02:26   so they're complaining the internet doesn't work.

01:02:27   Luckily, they both have phones,

01:02:28   so worst case scenario, you just drop back to 5G,

01:02:30   which is mostly what they did,

01:02:32   and now you just hope you don't burn through all your data

01:02:34   because the kids just give up on WiFi

01:02:35   because it never works, and the cellular is faster anyway.

01:02:38   - Was it the Verizon nationwide ultra?

01:02:40   - Yeah, on, on, right?

01:02:42   It was an ultra wideband like the bench, though,

01:02:44   so it was, you know, it was just,

01:02:45   at least web pages will load,

01:02:47   and of course, my daughter's always on Spotify,

01:02:50   so that's all streaming all the time,

01:02:52   so we are using a lot of bandwidth,

01:02:53   but yeah, the WiFi is just grim.

01:02:55   And at the other house, the WiFi is better,

01:02:58   but still not good.

01:02:59   I'm not sure where their router is locked up,

01:03:01   I didn't go searching for it,

01:03:03   but yeah, every house has bad WiFi,

01:03:07   and I don't know how people live like that.

01:03:09   - See, I'm surprised, 'cause like,

01:03:11   so I live in a vacation town,

01:03:13   and so almost every house here

01:03:16   gets rented on a regular basis in the summertime.

01:03:18   And the clear standard here is that people usually

01:03:23   make the Wi-Fi router easily accessible

01:03:25   in the middle of the house,

01:03:26   buy whatever the primary TV is in the living room.

01:03:28   And the reason why, first of all,

01:03:29   it's there because that's where they install it,

01:03:31   'cause that's where Verizon usually,

01:03:33   this is a Fios town,

01:03:34   that's where Verizon always defaults to installing it.

01:03:37   And it's accessible because what often,

01:03:40   much more often happens than people messing it up

01:03:43   is that they get there and it doesn't work,

01:03:45   like what happened to you,

01:03:46   and they call the owner or management company,

01:03:49   like hey, the wifi doesn't work,

01:03:49   and somebody has to go reboot it.

01:03:51   And it's much easier and more practical

01:03:52   for them to just tell the renter,

01:03:54   just unplug it and plug it back in,

01:03:56   and they can kind of fix it themselves,

01:03:58   rather than having to send somebody out there

01:04:00   who has access to the owner's shed or whatever.

01:04:03   So I'm surprised yours is done that way,

01:04:05   because if it's rented, every summer,

01:04:08   it's a different piece, or at least to a bunch of people,

01:04:10   I'm surprised that issue hasn't been bothersome enough

01:04:13   to them that they haven't just been like,

01:04:15   hey, fix it yourself.

01:04:16   - I mean, well, part of the thing is,

01:04:17   when the Eero Lite turns red and it's like,

01:04:19   I have no Android connection,

01:04:20   I didn't do anything to fix that.

01:04:22   It eventually fixed itself and it went back

01:04:24   to its normal, terrible speeds.

01:04:26   And I don't know what caused that.

01:04:27   It may be something is rebooting inside the shed

01:04:30   or whatever.

01:04:31   At the previous house, I had the habit

01:04:33   of bringing a Wi-Fi extender with me.

01:04:34   This is in the days before Eero.

01:04:36   I would bring a Wi-Fi extender so I could get

01:04:37   the Wi-Fi signal from where I knew it was locked up

01:04:40   and I would sort of daisy chain these cheap Wi-Fi extenders

01:04:42   It's not you know, not a mesh network not like a row

01:04:44   but just like a repeater to get the signal and that would make it so because it was so bad in that house that in

01:04:50   The main sort of living room the one with this big giant 80s sectional sofa like the biggest sofa ever seen in my life

01:04:55   I just show you a picture over hilarious very 80s. This house was super 80s

01:04:59   Like it was so 80s that it had I think I've talked to it for like the in the in wall intercoms that rich people houses

01:05:04   Had in the 80s

01:05:05   And like the new tone like radio so you could pump radio and a cassette player to play through all the speakers throughout the house

01:05:11   Super eighties welcome to Long Island. Yeah

01:05:13   It was such a time capsule was amazing

01:05:16   But in the main room of that giant sectional and what was originally a gigantic rear projection television again total eighties rich people house, right?

01:05:22   It was zero Wi-Fi. You just you couldn't do anything, right?

01:05:26   So I had because that's where we wanted to be hanging out and like as we got more and more devices

01:05:30   It'd be like well you could be on the comfortable couches talking with people or you could be in this room on like sitting on

01:05:34   This uncomfortable wicker thing, but you can get Wi-Fi and people would slowly migrate that direction because they just wanted to be able to use their phones

01:05:40   Anyway, so that's what I used to do there in this house what I considered because I've watched a lot of YouTube

01:05:46   I've watched enough like lock picking channels to know how to pick those combination padlocks

01:05:50   Combination padlocks like most of those things where you have like a wheel where you turn the zero through nine numbers right on each one

01:05:57   There's pretty simple ways if you watch YouTube videos how to open those locks with nothing more than your fingers and feel it's not as easy

01:06:05   As they make it look especially when the lock is like outdoors and rusted, but I considered doing that but I'm like

01:06:10   you know how you're like breaking and entering,

01:06:11   don't just go to the other house.

01:06:13   And so that's what I did.

01:06:15   I went to their house, do my uploading.

01:06:16   So I did always manage to get everything uploaded.

01:06:19   I think I talked about,

01:06:20   did I talk about photography stuff?

01:06:23   - No, you talked very briefly on rectifs about it,

01:06:25   but not here yet.

01:06:27   - Okay, so I brought the two cameras this year.

01:06:29   I brought the camera that Mark gave me, a7 III.

01:06:32   - The curse gift, yes, thank you.

01:06:33   - Yes, which I was cursed to buy very expensive lenses for.

01:06:36   - Yeah, I was literally laughing out loud

01:06:39   when I heard that, it was delightful.

01:06:41   - And I bought my previous year's camera, the A6600,

01:06:46   with, and my plan this year was to not change lenses

01:06:49   to the beach, which is something I had done in past years,

01:06:51   and I'm pretty good at doing, but it's always nerve-wracking.

01:06:54   There's wind, there's sand, there's water,

01:06:56   there's kids running around the area where you're sitting,

01:06:59   kicking up stuff, like, yeah.

01:07:02   So I don't wanna change lenses to the beach,

01:07:04   but I always have to because I got my super long lens

01:07:05   to get the kids out in the waves,

01:07:07   and I've got, when everyone's back on the blanket,

01:07:09   you can't be using a really long zoom

01:07:10   'cause they're two inches away from you

01:07:12   and you know, playing on the beach, stuff like that.

01:07:13   So my plan was to use my really long zoom lens

01:07:17   on my a6600 and then use a more reasonable length

01:07:22   on the a7, 'cause I don't have a really long zoom

01:07:27   for the a7.

01:07:28   If you want to get a decent quality,

01:07:31   really long zoom lens for a full frame camera,

01:07:33   A, they're as big as a truck

01:07:34   and B, they're really expensive, right?

01:07:36   I don't have one of those.

01:07:38   I just have it on the small one.

01:07:39   I'll put the links in the show notes,

01:07:41   but the small one I have is the Sony 70-350.

01:07:43   So it's 70-350, but it's an APS-C sensor.

01:07:46   So that 350 is actually whatever the equivalent is,

01:07:48   probably like 400, 500.

01:07:50   And it's a good lens.

01:07:51   I think it's the most expensive lens I have

01:07:53   for my small camera.

01:07:55   And the APS-C is not a big deal,

01:07:57   'cause it's super sunny at the beach.

01:07:59   You don't need extra light gathering or whatever.

01:08:00   So that setup served me pretty well.

01:08:03   And then on the, on Marco's camera,

01:08:06   I have the horrendously expensive Sony 24-70 GM2,

01:08:11   which is smaller and lighter than the original GM,

01:08:14   which is why I got it, which is why they got it

01:08:16   to liberate that money from my wallet,

01:08:18   because I wasn't gonna buy the other one,

01:08:19   'cause it's like, ah, it's kind of an old lens,

01:08:21   and it's big and it's heavy, and they said,

01:08:22   but wait, here's exactly the lens you wanted,

01:08:24   but now it's smaller and it's lighter and it's brand new,

01:08:26   and so I got that, and it was very expensive,

01:08:28   but it's also very--

01:08:29   - It probably cost more than the camera.

01:08:30   - It was close.

01:08:31   (laughing)

01:08:32   - Oh my word.

01:08:33   I also have a, I got a used 85 millimeter 1.8,

01:08:37   I think I talked about it on the show,

01:08:38   but I didn't really use that on the vacation.

01:08:40   So these are the two lenses I used.

01:08:41   It was great not having to swap lenses,

01:08:45   but I did find myself in the slightly awkward situation

01:08:48   of now I have to swap cameras.

01:08:51   Usually not a big deal,

01:08:53   'cause hey, if you're down by the waves,

01:08:54   you have the one camera, right?

01:08:57   But very often, if you're not familiar

01:08:59   with the ways of Long Island beaches,

01:09:02   There are lifeguards sitting in chairs

01:09:04   trying to keep you alive.

01:09:06   But in general on the Long Island beaches,

01:09:08   if you want to use surfboards or boogie boards,

01:09:10   you're not allowed to use them where the lifeguards are.

01:09:13   I always wondered about that.

01:09:14   It's been that way since I was a kid.

01:09:15   Like I guess you're more likely to drown

01:09:17   when you're using them.

01:09:18   Does it make harder for the lifeguard to see?

01:09:19   I don't actually know the reasoning behind that.

01:09:20   It's just something I never questioned

01:09:21   'cause it's just been part of my life.

01:09:23   - My best guess is a combination of like,

01:09:27   if you're gonna do stuff like far out on floating devices,

01:09:30   they don't wanna be responsible for you.

01:09:31   and then secondarily maybe that if you're in their zone,

01:09:35   they have to keep watch over the water constantly

01:09:37   and it's probably hard for them to watch

01:09:39   a couple of people way out there

01:09:41   and also a whole bunch of people really close to them.

01:09:44   - Yeah, I mean it's not really a distance thing

01:09:45   'cause they don't let you use the boogie boards

01:09:46   even if you use it two feet from the shore, right?

01:09:48   They just, no boogie boards allowed, no surfboards allowed.

01:09:50   I'm sure there's very good reasons for it

01:09:52   but I've really never questioned it

01:09:53   'cause it's just been an obvious law.

01:09:54   And as I explained this, it probably seems weird.

01:09:57   So it doesn't seem weird to me 'cause I grew up like this

01:10:00   But so they have flags in the sand saying,

01:10:02   here is the area where if you swim,

01:10:04   you know, if you extend those lines out into the water,

01:10:06   if you swim between these flags and they move the flags,

01:10:08   more lifeguards come or whatever.

01:10:09   So between these flags, lifeguards are in theory

01:10:11   watching you and may save you, right?

01:10:14   But if you're outside those flags, you're on your own.

01:10:16   And so you're like, well, if they're worried about people

01:10:19   dying or it's a safety thing,

01:10:21   forcing them to go far away from the lifeguards

01:10:24   where no one is watching them,

01:10:25   doing the ostensibly more dangerous thing

01:10:27   doesn't seem to make sense,

01:10:28   but that's exactly what happens, right?

01:10:30   So we go to the beach, we bring boogie boards and sometimes surfboards, and then we basically

01:10:35   take a trek to, or we're going to go down the beach, we're going to go boogie boarding,

01:10:39   we're going to go surfboarding or whatever.

01:10:41   And so you bring all your stuff and you go down the beach.

01:10:42   It's away from, you know, our blanket is where the lifeguards are and that's where everyone's

01:10:46   going in the water mostly, but if you want to do that you go down the beach.

01:10:48   I want to go down the beach, I have to take both cameras with me.

01:10:53   One for the long lens, for the people who are out surfing, but also for the people,

01:10:56   you know, if we're collecting shells or going into little tidal pools on the other side

01:10:59   and doing this stuff like I need both cameras.

01:11:01   So now I've got two cameras around my neck,

01:11:04   walking down the beach, and I'm like swapping between them.

01:11:07   - How do you not get arrested?

01:11:09   - Yes, seriously.

01:11:10   - I mean, I'm going with a family group,

01:11:11   you know, it's obvious what I'm, you know,

01:11:13   I have occasionally had people come up to me

01:11:15   and give me dirty looks or say stuff about like,

01:11:16   hey, who are you taking a picture of?

01:11:17   I'm like, that's my daughter.

01:11:18   They're like, oh, okay.

01:11:20   - Yeah.

01:11:20   - Oh my gosh.

01:11:22   - But you know, it's not that big.

01:11:23   Anyway, so I got two cameras around my neck,

01:11:25   and I got pretty good at swapping between them,

01:11:28   but it was a little bit awkward and heavy

01:11:30   dealing with that.

01:11:31   Now, doing it the other way where I have one camera

01:11:33   and a backpack with lenses that I get down and swap

01:11:35   was probably worse.

01:11:37   But yeah, the two camera system,

01:11:39   overall, I give it mostly a thumbs up.

01:11:42   I did kind of miss using primes

01:11:45   'cause both of these are zooms.

01:11:46   I did kind of miss using primes

01:11:47   because I wasn't gonna swap to them.

01:11:49   I had them with me, I had all my lenses with me

01:11:51   if I wanted them, but in practice, I just didn't.

01:11:54   I never thought I needed to prime enough

01:11:57   to deal with having to change it on the beach.

01:12:00   The other thing was, we had a bunch of days

01:12:02   that were overcast-ish, so a lot of my pictures,

01:12:05   you know, it's nicer when it's sunny,

01:12:06   but rain was predicted for a lot of the days.

01:12:10   Rain mostly held off, which is good,

01:12:12   but the light wasn't great on a lot of the days,

01:12:14   so that kind of made my pictures more dull than usual.

01:12:17   The final thing, and this is not really tech-related,

01:12:20   but it is, well, it kind of is,

01:12:22   I like to take pictures of birds at the beach.

01:12:24   The birds are always there.

01:12:25   They're fun to take pictures of.

01:12:26   It's fun to mess with the camera.

01:12:28   If you follow any of my things on Instagram,

01:12:30   you can see lots of pictures of birds.

01:12:31   That's me usually using the super really long lens

01:12:33   to get them far away and to pull them real close in.

01:12:36   Sometimes planes fly over the beach,

01:12:37   I get pictures of them, that's fun to do.

01:12:40   I did that this year too.

01:12:42   I don't know what the deal is

01:12:43   because we were on Long Island last year, right?

01:12:45   Like I did this trip last year, I think.

01:12:47   So I can't really blame it on like COVID,

01:12:50   like, oh, you know,

01:12:51   so many people hadn't been going to the vacation,

01:12:54   but now the people are back, right?

01:12:56   But this year, the birds were different.

01:12:59   This year, the birds were way more aggressive

01:13:04   than I had seen them on these beaches

01:13:06   in my entire history of going to these specific beaches

01:13:09   at this time of the year.

01:13:10   Gulls on the beach are always,

01:13:13   they want your potato chips, let's face it.

01:13:15   They want anything you're eating,

01:13:16   that's just what gulls are like on the beach,

01:13:18   it's just something you accept, right?

01:13:20   But normally, they do the bird thing,

01:13:23   They just kind of hang back or whatever and then like some kid throws a chip because he thinks it'll be fun and a thousand

01:13:28   Birds to send out of nowhere and it becomes a giant thing or whatever and then the parents say don't throw things to the birds

01:13:33   Right because it just gets them all, you know riled up

01:13:35   This year they weren't waiting for anybody to throw anything. They weren't waiting for a kid to drop a damn sandwich

01:13:42   They would walk by they would walk by and they give you this little side eye and they'd be like they'd be looking at what?

01:13:47   You're eating and they'd you know, and you'd be looking at them. You're like, I'll just I won't throw anything in the middle

01:13:53   it'll be fine, and they just kinda get a little closer.

01:13:55   They kinda look a little closer.

01:13:56   Maybe one or two of them would see somebody who like,

01:13:59   oh, someone went to the water,

01:14:00   and then someone else went to the water,

01:14:01   and now no one is at their blanket.

01:14:03   They go over to that blanket and say, hmm, a backpack.

01:14:05   - What?

01:14:06   - Let me stick my nose in that backpack.

01:14:07   What do you got in here?

01:14:08   Oh, I got a bag of chips, oh, I got a bag of chips!

01:14:09   Pulls the bag of chips out of the backpack,

01:14:11   and 100 birds come down and they tear the bag of chips open.

01:14:13   You know, and then the people come back from the water

01:14:16   and it's just their bag of chips is gone,

01:14:18   and there's a mess by their thing or whatever.

01:14:20   They were so aggressive this year.

01:14:23   They were pulling things out of people's bags,

01:14:25   pulling bags, I posted on Instagram,

01:14:28   you can see one pulling a bag of pistachios out.

01:14:30   It must be an expensive bag of pistachios,

01:14:31   it looks pretty big.

01:14:32   They would just go into your stuff and get your food.

01:14:35   They weren't waiting for you to throw it, right?

01:14:37   The other thing is, so we'd all be there,

01:14:39   like it's lunchtime, everyone comes back to the blanket,

01:14:41   they're all wet, they got their wet hair,

01:14:42   they got the towels around them,

01:14:43   we're sitting under our umbrellas,

01:14:45   all the kids are eating their sandwiches,

01:14:46   we're eating the stuff, whatever.

01:14:48   And the birds are looking at you

01:14:49   and they know you got stuff.

01:14:49   Whatever, we're experienced,

01:14:51   we're not gonna throw them food,

01:14:52   Even the little kids know you don't throw foods to the birds.

01:14:54   It gets them all riled up.

01:14:54   Keep your food to yourself, right?

01:14:56   But they keep walking by.

01:14:57   And then like, we had our chairs in like a U shape.

01:15:01   And you could see if you're on one side of the U,

01:15:02   you could see on the other side of the U,

01:15:04   they're walking behind the other people over there.

01:15:05   And you'd be like, "Psst, there's a bird behind you."

01:15:07   And you turn around and look at it.

01:15:08   And you think, "Oh, I turn around and look at it.

01:15:09   "It's gonna fly away."

01:15:09   And the other bird would just look at you and say,

01:15:10   "What, I'm just walking here.

01:15:12   "Don't mind me," right?

01:15:14   And aside from getting pooped on, which should happen once,

01:15:18   'cause occasionally they'll fly over your head

01:15:19   and poop on you, I'm there with the camera going like,

01:15:21   wow, this is crazy. - Sounds awful.

01:15:23   - These birds are real close,

01:15:24   I can get lots of pictures of them.

01:15:25   And it was really windy and they were doing a lot

01:15:27   of low-level flying, like back and forth

01:15:30   over the blanket area, which was good

01:15:31   for taking pictures of them, whatever.

01:15:33   But they were also doing a lot of low-level flying.

01:15:35   I'm like, hmm, you got the walkers and you got the flyers.

01:15:38   And at one point, I wasn't paying attention,

01:15:41   I was just talking to the people on my side of the thing.

01:15:43   And then one of my little nephews started crying

01:15:46   on the other side, and they're like,

01:15:47   you know what, what happened, what happened?

01:15:48   It's like, oh, a bird, the bird tried to grab his sandwich

01:15:51   or something like that.

01:15:52   I don't think anyone saw it happen, but he was very upset

01:15:54   and he said that a bird had tried to grab something

01:15:56   that he was eating, right?

01:15:58   Not that he was throwing food

01:16:00   or the bird was pulling something from a bag,

01:16:02   but he was trying to get the thing that he was eating.

01:16:03   He was very upset by it.

01:16:04   And they're all going and comforting the little boy

01:16:07   and everything, right?

01:16:07   While this is happening, I'm eating my sandwich.

01:16:10   You know, we make our own little sandwiches

01:16:12   and bring them to the beach.

01:16:13   I'm eating my sandwich and a bird comes from behind me

01:16:17   in the air and takes a bite of my sandwich

01:16:20   that is in my hands.

01:16:21   - Oh my gosh. - And I'm in the process

01:16:23   of eating.

01:16:24   I didn't, he didn't get the sandwich

01:16:26   'cause my grip, I grabbed it as they went away,

01:16:29   but he took a bite out of it.

01:16:30   And of course now I gotta throw out the whole sandwich,

01:16:32   it's got a bird bite on it, right?

01:16:33   I want the bird slobber that came on this thing,

01:16:35   but I'm like, it's in my hands, right?

01:16:38   And that happened, I think once again,

01:16:39   to one other person.

01:16:40   So the new move was like when we're eating lunch,

01:16:42   hold your food close to your chest

01:16:44   and be aware that the nearest bird may be behind you.

01:16:47   Like, we're watching in front of us,

01:16:48   we're watching all those birds, watching them, whatever.

01:16:50   Like, I thought I was covered,

01:16:51   and there was an umbrella too,

01:16:53   the thing flew like under the umbrella,

01:16:54   over my shoulder, over the back of the seat,

01:16:57   and you know, while still flying, went achomp,

01:17:00   and tried to grab the sandwich out of my hand.

01:17:02   These birds are out of control.

01:17:03   I don't know what has gotten into them,

01:17:04   but they don't, they're not afraid anymore,

01:17:07   and they're pooping on us, and they're stealing our food

01:17:09   out of our hands while we eat it.

01:17:12   - That's incredible.

01:17:13   - That is nuts.

01:17:14   - That does not happen here.

01:17:15   - Well, I mean, here we actually don't allow

01:17:18   eating on the beach because we have a very small,

01:17:20   very densely populated beach,

01:17:21   and that would cause too much litter.

01:17:23   - Wait, are you serious?

01:17:25   - Yes.

01:17:25   - What kind of--

01:17:27   - We have a very large volume of people

01:17:28   that come to a very small section of the beach,

01:17:31   and so we have a lot more rules

01:17:33   than most of the surrounding communities

01:17:34   because if we didn't, it would be ridiculous.

01:17:37   - So if you go to this beach,

01:17:42   you can't have lunch on the beach?

01:17:45   - Correct.

01:17:46   - That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life.

01:17:48   - And everyone tells us that.

01:17:49   But trust me, if you see the number of people

01:17:52   that come to a very small area, you would see why.

01:17:56   It makes sense when you see it,

01:17:58   but the idea of it angers everybody.

01:18:00   - I'll go on faith, but it's not making sense right now.

01:18:03   - One of the things they added at the beach that we go to

01:18:05   is they have little baskets.

01:18:06   They said, "Hey, if you wanna pick up litter on the beach,

01:18:07   "you can use one of these baskets."

01:18:09   In practice, I mean, maybe the people who run the beach,

01:18:12   the county or whatever, cleans up the beach,

01:18:13   but people are usually good about litter,

01:18:15   or good enough that you don't find litter on the beach

01:18:18   for the most part.

01:18:18   If you find anything, it's stuff that came from the ocean,

01:18:20   not stuff that was left on the beach,

01:18:21   but that's probably because they have a big staff

01:18:22   of people cleaning it up.

01:18:24   - As a, you know, I would suggest for your community,

01:18:27   not letting people eat is one way to do it.

01:18:29   Another way is to pay people to clean everything up.

01:18:31   I mean, probably why you don't have aggressive birds

01:18:33   is like, well, there's nothing here.

01:18:34   People don't have food.

01:18:35   - We have aggressive teenagers

01:18:37   who leave white claws everywhere,

01:18:38   but I think if the birds drank those,

01:18:39   it'd have different problems.

01:18:40   - Like this beach, there's nothing changed about this beach,

01:18:42   and it's not any different than any other

01:18:44   sort of south shore beach that I've been through

01:18:45   my whole life.

01:18:46   The birds are there, they go nuts if someone throws

01:18:48   them a potato chip or whatever, but this year,

01:18:50   this year they've just, they've, I don't know,

01:18:53   they've become more intelligent, the hive mind has,

01:18:56   you know, I put a link in the--

01:18:58   - It's funny, actually, what we do have is people will,

01:19:01   you know, they'll park their wagons or oftentimes

01:19:03   a baby stroller at the bottom of like the staircase

01:19:06   that goes up and over the dune, you know,

01:19:08   and we will often see deer eating whatever was left.

01:19:13   If they pack a lunch and it'll be in a stroller,

01:19:16   you'll see a deer eating out of a stroller,

01:19:18   which looks hilarious, and I can't even imagine

01:19:22   the people coming back to whatever mess that creates

01:19:25   where the deer just ate their sandwich

01:19:27   while they were at the beach.

01:19:28   - I got a deer photo this year too.

01:19:29   We don't see as many of them as you do, obviously,

01:19:31   on Firehound, but this was just on our beach.

01:19:34   It was just hanging out in the long lens.

01:19:36   let me reel it in.

01:19:38   We'll put it in the show notes to the picture.

01:19:41   So I put all these pictures of birds on my Instagram

01:19:44   and I also put a final sequence of birds

01:19:46   of saying let me show you what they're really up to,

01:19:48   which is stealing your food.

01:19:49   And so you can see in that one a picture of a bird

01:19:52   standing on someone's backpack about to get into it

01:19:54   and a bird pulling a bag of pistachios out of someone's bag.

01:19:56   (laughing)

01:19:58   Oh, and that other bird, the previous one,

01:19:59   the bird is like looking under a seat.

01:20:00   That's in our little circle.

01:20:01   They just walk right into the circle.

01:20:02   They're like, oh, there's no one in the seat.

01:20:03   Let me check under here.

01:20:04   There might be some potato chips.

01:20:06   (laughing)

01:20:07   - All right, we have a bit of a long after show

01:20:08   special this week, so we're gonna call it here.

01:20:11   Thanks everybody for listening.

01:20:13   Thanks to our sponsors, Trade Coffee,

01:20:15   Memberful, and Stack Overflow.

01:20:17   Thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:20:19   You can join us at ATP.FM/JOIN,

01:20:22   and we will talk to you next week.

01:20:24   (upbeat music)

01:20:27   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:20:29   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:20:32   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:20:34   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:20:35   Oh it was accidental John didn't do any research

01:20:39   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental

01:20:44   It was accidental And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:20:53   And if you're into Twitter You can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:21:02   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

01:21:07   Auntie Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C, USA, Syracuse.

01:21:14   It's accidental.

01:21:15   It's accidental.

01:21:17   They didn't mean to.

01:21:19   Accidental.

01:21:20   Accidental.

01:21:22   Tech podcast so long.

01:21:28   I'm getting my driving permit for driving on the sand.

01:21:32   - The sand driving permit, that is very exciting.

01:21:35   I will confess that I knew this already,

01:21:37   but that is extremely exciting.

01:21:39   I'm very, very excited for you.

01:21:40   And so you will finally be able to use the FJ

01:21:44   as it has been intended.

01:21:46   - And this will make a massive difference

01:21:49   in the quality of my life

01:21:51   and the things we were able to do in the winter.

01:21:53   Because we live on Fire Island,

01:21:55   the only way to get here normally is by ferry.

01:21:58   The ferry does run in the winter,

01:22:00   but they only run like a few boats a day,

01:22:03   and it's such that you can go off island

01:22:07   to go shopping or go to the doctor or whatever

01:22:09   for either 90 minutes or eight hours,

01:22:12   and the way the schedule works,

01:22:14   and the last boat leaves the mainland

01:22:17   at like 4 p.m. or 3.30 p.m.

01:22:20   So you can't do anything off the island

01:22:23   that would take longer than 3.30 p.m.

01:22:27   otherwise you cannot get back to your house that night.

01:22:29   - Cool.

01:22:30   - So this year we will have the driving permit

01:22:34   and that makes so much difference

01:22:36   'cause then you can just drive yourself off in the winter.

01:22:39   You can't drive in the summer 'cause it's full of people

01:22:41   and you don't need to

01:22:42   'cause there's tons of ferries in the summer so it's fine.

01:22:44   But yeah, in the winter finally we will have this.

01:22:46   And this, I need to get glasses probably.

01:22:50   I have to go to the eye doctor

01:22:51   and I just, it's hard to do that.

01:22:54   Like there's so much stuff like that

01:22:55   that we've kind of been putting off

01:22:56   for the last couple of years,

01:22:57   'cause it was very difficult to do year round.

01:23:00   So, oh man, I'm so, so happy.

01:23:03   - Okay, so to be clear, in the future,

01:23:05   you can take the FJ, and the problem is

01:23:08   is that the particular town you're in in Fire Island,

01:23:11   the streets, as you would call them,

01:23:13   are not really streets at all.

01:23:14   I mean, I guess you said, I've never been,

01:23:16   but my understanding is you maybe could put a car on it

01:23:19   if you really, really tried,

01:23:20   but it's certainly not meant for that,

01:23:21   whether or not it's legal.

01:23:22   And so the issue is that you have to drive on the sand

01:23:26   to get to the end of the regular car streets,

01:23:30   and then once you're on the car streets,

01:23:31   then you can go to like a bridge or a causeway

01:23:33   or what have you in order to get to the mainland.

01:23:35   Is that all fair?

01:23:36   - Pretty much, yeah.

01:23:37   I mean, there isn't even a road that has no sand

01:23:41   that goes the whole way, even if it wanted to.

01:23:43   There is, so the roads on Fire Island

01:23:45   are basically wide sidewalks,

01:23:47   and they are just wide enough that one car or truck

01:23:51   can fit down them.

01:23:52   And they're so narrow that if you're driving your car

01:23:55   or truck down them, your mirrors will be brushing

01:23:58   against everyone's bushes the whole way down.

01:24:00   Like that's how narrow it is.

01:24:01   It is exactly wide enough to fit a truck or a car

01:24:05   and that's it.

01:24:06   And so this has a number of challenges

01:24:08   when you're driving on these quote roads.

01:24:10   So one is obviously cars can't pass each other.

01:24:14   So if someone's coming the other way,

01:24:16   somebody has to like stop and back up into a side street

01:24:19   to let the other person pass.

01:24:22   So there's a lot of backing up around these corners

01:24:24   and everything, and you've got to have very good visibility.

01:24:27   You have to really know your vehicle.

01:24:29   It has to be hopefully as small of a footprint

01:24:31   as you can get it, while still being

01:24:33   able to have very good four-wheel drive

01:24:35   capability to go over the sand to get there

01:24:36   in the first place.

01:24:37   And there's a bunch of houses that all have landscaping

01:24:41   and stuff that butt right up against the walk sometimes.

01:24:44   And so you really have to be very careful.

01:24:46   It's a very slow, careful way of driving here.

01:24:51   And again, visibility, vehicle maneuverability,

01:24:55   and footprint are very important.

01:24:56   But everyone's driving trucks and SUVs

01:24:58   so they can actually get them here.

01:25:00   So that's the situation.

01:25:02   For me to drive off of the island,

01:25:05   I basically have to either drive this--

01:25:09   we call it the inland route, which

01:25:10   is through all the towns--

01:25:12   on all these very, very narrow walks.

01:25:13   Or I can drive a short distance on narrow walks

01:25:16   and then get myself onto the sand and drive about--

01:25:19   I think it's about three miles on the sand,

01:25:21   and then cut back in at the last minute

01:25:23   and go off onto a bridge or whatever.

01:25:24   - I didn't even think there was an inland route.

01:25:26   There's a way you could do this without going on the sand?

01:25:28   - It just has less sand.

01:25:30   It's like, yeah, you don't drive on the beach,

01:25:33   but you have to drive on the inland route,

01:25:34   and the inland road has a few sections in it

01:25:37   that are just extremely loose, like sugar sand,

01:25:40   which is very, it's even harder to drive on the beach.

01:25:43   So anyway, that situation.

01:25:45   So now that, it came in right at this time,

01:25:49   right between two school years,

01:25:50   and the amount of time that we are planning

01:25:52   on continuing to live here is measured in school years,

01:25:55   and it is going to be most likely

01:25:57   either one or two more school years.

01:26:00   So the timing of this was like, wait a minute.

01:26:03   If we now need a car for either one or two years

01:26:07   for this role, maybe I should trade in the FJ Cruiser

01:26:12   for something new that would be nicer for this purpose.

01:26:16   and I'll tell you some things that went into this decision.

01:26:19   - Wait, wait, before you go on from that,

01:26:21   why is it that there's a one or two year thing,

01:26:23   suddenly that means you need a new car?

01:26:25   Make this connection.

01:26:26   - Because it's Marco!

01:26:28   - I have two clear paths here.

01:26:29   Path number one, just keep the FJ Cruiser

01:26:32   and don't touch it.

01:26:33   Just don't change anything, keep what I have.

01:26:35   So there are some advantages.

01:26:37   Obviously that's the cheapest solution,

01:26:38   that is the least hassle.

01:26:39   And the advantage of owning something outright

01:26:42   as opposed to a lease or anything like that

01:26:44   is flexibility too.

01:26:46   I don't know exactly how long I'm going to need

01:26:48   or want this vehicle.

01:26:50   When I move back to civilization,

01:26:53   I'm probably not gonna wanna be driving an off-road SUV

01:26:56   as my main car, I won't need it really for that.

01:26:59   So I'm probably gonna need this car for two years,

01:27:01   that's the most likely term here.

01:27:03   - But you already have a car

01:27:04   that you could keep for exactly two years.

01:27:06   - Right.

01:27:07   - You already have it.

01:27:08   - Correct.

01:27:08   However, the long-term reliability of this car

01:27:11   is a big question mark because--

01:27:13   - Of a Toyota.

01:27:14   - Yes, well it has almost 100,000 miles

01:27:16   and it's been driven very hard on the beach

01:27:19   for all those miles.

01:27:20   Like the previous owner of this car

01:27:21   would drive it back and forth to the mainland

01:27:23   a few times a week at least.

01:27:25   That's a lot of mileage for sand miles,

01:27:27   'cause you don't understand what this does to cars.

01:27:29   Like the underside all rusted out.

01:27:32   The frame, tons of rust everywhere.

01:27:35   I got a little concerned because the other FJ Cruisers

01:27:39   that have been on this island of similar vintage

01:27:41   have been dropping like flies in the last year.

01:27:43   They've been being replaced because

01:27:45   they keep rusting out in critical frame ways.

01:27:48   And when that happens, your trade-in value

01:27:50   goes through the floor, and it's a big pain in the butt,

01:27:52   et cetera, so anyway.

01:27:53   So that's one factor, is I'm a little concerned

01:27:56   about reliability for two years of regular use in this way.

01:28:00   Also, I mentioned the maneuverability and stuff

01:28:03   around the town.

01:28:04   The visibility in the FJ Cruiser is horrendous.

01:28:07   It's really bad visibility for a couple of reasons.

01:28:11   Mainly, it has those wide body color C pillars, I guess,

01:28:17   would they be?

01:28:18   Or B pillars?

01:28:19   Whatever they are.

01:28:20   It has these big blind spot blockages in its frame design.

01:28:24   And also, while it has a backup camera,

01:28:28   as I mentioned when I got it, it's

01:28:30   the tiny little display in the rear view mirror

01:28:33   that has the approximate resolution of a QuickTime

01:28:35   video in 1996.

01:28:37   It is very small and low resolution,

01:28:40   and you can't see crap at night.

01:28:41   So one thing I thought was, okay,

01:28:43   maybe I just keep the FJ and install a new CarPlay radio

01:28:47   with an aftermarket backup camera

01:28:49   that has a nice new backup camera.

01:28:50   So that's one option I could do.

01:28:52   But visibility in general in the car,

01:28:54   that's something that's harder to change.

01:28:56   There is a lot of, as I mentioned,

01:28:58   a lot of undercarriage wear and rust,

01:29:01   and so much, when I went to install the license plate,

01:29:05   the license plate mount is all rusted out,

01:29:07   so I had to go buy my own license plate mount,

01:29:09   screw it on with some screws into something that might work.

01:29:13   I got a tow hitch shackle so I could be pulled out

01:29:17   if I had to.

01:29:18   I tried to remove that tow hitch shackle recently

01:29:19   and I just can't.

01:29:20   It's the new piece of metal that I put into the old

01:29:24   tow hitch receiver is now rusted into it.

01:29:26   - Cool.

01:29:27   - So the amount of rust that I'm hitting here

01:29:30   is substantial.

01:29:32   Also, driving the FJ Cruiser, there are certain things

01:29:36   about there that are convenient.

01:29:37   It has all these nice old style controls.

01:29:40   Everything's all manual.

01:29:42   But that's also a downside in the sense

01:29:43   that it lacks a lot of modern things

01:29:45   that I am accustomed to that I really miss when I don't have

01:29:48   them.

01:29:49   So one thing, Bluetooth.

01:29:50   It has Bluetooth, but it's very limited.

01:29:53   And I found it to be very unreliable.

01:29:55   It doesn't have modern conveniences like proximity keys.

01:29:58   Climate control.

01:29:59   I like having big manual knobs when

01:30:01   I want to just think manually.

01:30:02   But I hate having to then constantly tweak, all right,

01:30:05   wait, turn the temperature up a little bit.

01:30:06   Wait, turn it.

01:30:06   Turn the fan speed down a little bit.

01:30:09   I know I did this forever when I was learning

01:30:11   how to drive on older, regular cars for my entire youth,

01:30:14   but I also know that now climate control is nice.

01:30:18   It's one less thing to worry about.

01:30:20   Automatic headlights, great feature.

01:30:23   And I have it on the Tesla, so that's fine.

01:30:26   Having to turn on and off the headlights manually,

01:30:27   it's like one more thing I have to now think about

01:30:30   and possibly fail at some point to do.

01:30:32   Other things that I've gotten used to,

01:30:33   a speed limit display on the dash.

01:30:37   Like, you know, the car is using some kind of camera

01:30:39   to recognize speed limit signs,

01:30:41   and displaying the speed limit on the dash.

01:30:43   I love this feature,

01:30:44   because I don't have to keep a lookout

01:30:46   for the signs constantly.

01:30:48   If I happen to miss one, and I wonder,

01:30:50   hey, am I going to speed limit,

01:30:51   I can just glance down,

01:30:52   and it's right there on the display.

01:30:53   That's a nice feature.

01:30:54   I'm now accustomed to that.

01:30:55   I know I could drive without it.

01:30:56   I have, I mean, with the FJ, I've driven without it,

01:30:58   but it sucks to drive without it once you're used to it.

01:31:01   The brake hold, where you push the brake to stop the car,

01:31:05   and then when you're stopped, you can let go of the brake

01:31:07   and the car holds itself there.

01:31:09   I love that feature in the Tesla

01:31:11   and many other modern nice cars.

01:31:13   I really love that feature.

01:31:14   And of course, the F8 doesn't have it,

01:31:16   so it makes it feel more like an automatic

01:31:17   where as soon as you lift off the brakes slightly,

01:31:19   you start creeping forward pretty quickly, actually,

01:31:21   and it's like, "Whoa, wait, hold on, I don't wanna go yet!"

01:31:23   And then other modern safety features

01:31:24   like the little blind spot warning lights

01:31:26   on rear view, or on side view mirrors, rather.

01:31:29   Stuff like that, I like that kind of stuff.

01:31:31   I like having modern safety features.

01:31:33   And then finally, obviously carplay would be nice to have.

01:31:37   It could be added aftermarket though,

01:31:38   so that's not this thing.

01:31:40   But other factors that played into my decision here.

01:31:43   The parking situation has proven to be more burdensome

01:31:48   than I expected because the ferry lot,

01:31:50   we have to pay for permits and they're very expensive

01:31:53   and so it's not really worth paying for two permits

01:31:56   to park two vehicles and then having to move two vehicles,

01:31:59   have to shuffle them around and everything.

01:32:01   Ideally, I would love a car that one vehicle

01:32:05   could just be my car to be four wheel drive

01:32:08   and be able to drive back and forth

01:32:11   from Westchester to the ferry.

01:32:12   And the FJ, the amount of rust and wear and tear

01:32:17   on this car, I don't think I would trust it

01:32:20   to be reliable in that role,

01:32:22   to be doing those long distance drives

01:32:24   as well as the four wheel drive stuff.

01:32:26   Not to mention, I would miss all that modern tech

01:32:28   and the comfort of market automobiles.

01:32:31   But what finally kind of pushed me to look at something else

01:32:34   is that I made the mistake of looking up what it's worth.

01:32:39   - Oh no.

01:32:41   - And the FJ Cruiser is worth more than I paid for it.

01:32:45   - Oh my gosh.

01:32:46   You bought it like six months ago, right?

01:32:47   Or a year ago at most?

01:32:48   - I got it like last, I think last November,

01:32:51   so almost a year ago.

01:32:52   But after less than a year,

01:32:55   it is worth more than I paid for it

01:32:57   and more enough to even cover things like

01:33:01   that I had to pay the sales tax to register it

01:33:02   and all that other stuff, it even covers all that.

01:33:05   It's worth a lot more.

01:33:07   - I'm sure that motivates you,

01:33:08   but as we get to the later part of this segment here,

01:33:11   I'm going to say that in no way does getting rid of the FJ

01:33:14   result in you eventually saving money, as we will see.

01:33:18   - No, of course not.

01:33:19   I mean, none of these options, but--

01:33:21   - This is very much like, I mean,

01:33:22   for people who are long-time listeners of the program,

01:33:25   Marco often does this with Max.

01:33:27   he will get a Mac that he thinks is going to be the Mac

01:33:29   that is going to serve his needs.

01:33:30   But then three months later, he'll be like,

01:33:32   you know what, I got this Mac expecting X and Y,

01:33:34   but really Z, and so he sells it and gets a different Mac.

01:33:37   This is exactly like that, but much bigger.

01:33:39   - Yes, that is a perfect analogy.

01:33:41   - Well, and yeah, no part of this is about,

01:33:43   I'm not pretending like I'm gonna save money

01:33:47   by getting a new car.

01:33:48   No, it's more like I have this car that I quote,

01:33:52   just bought, really, but it is now worth so much more

01:33:56   than what I paid for, that I can kind of see that as like,

01:33:59   okay, I can keep this, or I can basically use it

01:34:01   as a credit towards something else.

01:34:04   - Hopefully whoever you sell it to doesn't hear the part

01:34:06   where about all the rust underneath.

01:34:08   - Well, I'm thinking it's gonna be pretty visually obvious

01:34:10   if they even take a cursory look.

01:34:12   - Oh, it's on the underside, maybe they don't check.

01:34:13   - You can't miss, no, you can see it from the side.

01:34:15   Like, you can't miss it.

01:34:17   - When you're driving it, can you see the road below you?

01:34:19   - Yeah, right?

01:34:21   - Not yet, but it wouldn't surprise me.

01:34:24   So Marco, at this point you've decided in a very Marco way that you would like to solve a problem

01:34:30   that may or may not even be a problem in the first place by throwing money at it. So welcome new

01:34:35   listeners. This is the same as it ever was. But anyway, so you want a car that you said has great

01:34:43   visibility. It's easy to know the edges of the car and it's very good on SAM. So what you're saying

01:34:51   is you want something that's got very very short overhangs.

01:34:55   Uh, you, I think you left out one item there from the bullet list which is comfortable

01:35:00   to drive back and forth.

01:35:01   So like I said, you want a car that has short overhangs, you want a car that has short overhangs

01:35:07   that is extremely capable off-road and can do both of those things reasonably well.

01:35:14   So what you're saying is you want a Wrangler.

01:35:17   So I decided, I did some research and I asked some friends, I'm like, "Hey, what should

01:35:21   I be looking at here?" and watched a bunch of YouTube car reviews and off-road tests

01:35:25   and everything like that.

01:35:27   What I came to was a short list.

01:35:30   I wanted to look at the Toyota 4Runner, the Jeep Wrangler, and in particular the 4xe,

01:35:36   the plug-in hybrid Jeep Wrangler, and the Land Rover Defender.

01:35:40   I will say, towards the end, I was tipped off I should look at the Ford Bronco.

01:35:45   came kind of too late for me to plan to see it but but based on based on reviews

01:35:49   because like I knew the Bronco was just about it. -Towards the end we've been yelling

01:35:51   Bronco at you for like a month. -I was about to say we've been saying this both

01:35:55   of us have been saying this. -But you were ignoring us. -I know I get it. -Well and I also I thought based on just not listening

01:36:00   very closely I guess I thought they were like impossible to get. -I thought that

01:36:04   was I thought that was true too in your defense and that it does not seem to be

01:36:07   true but I also thought that they were hard to come by. -Yeah I should also say I

01:36:11   I have been on the wait list for a Rivian for a while now.

01:36:15   My current estimated delivery for the,

01:36:18   and I'm looking particularly at the R1S, the SUV model,

01:36:22   'cause if you want an R1T and you're willing

01:36:24   to pay a premium, there's a whole bunch of them

01:36:26   for sale nationwide now, like people who are flipping them.

01:36:29   And you can get a lightly used Rivian truck model,

01:36:32   the R1T, for a lot of money, but you can get it.

01:36:37   The R1S, the SUV, seems like it is just barely

01:36:41   starting to be trickled out and there are currently none for sale anywhere as far as

01:36:45   I can find.

01:36:47   So my reservation would hold which was like a year from now which is like well I probably

01:36:51   at that point I'm not even going to really need this car that much after one more year

01:36:56   so that's probably not a good option.

01:37:00   Also I mean that's a lot.

01:37:02   That's even more money than everything else I'm looking at.

01:37:05   So anyway, we had this kind of break in the summer

01:37:09   between summer camp for Adam

01:37:11   and this other thing he was doing.

01:37:13   And so we kind of had nothing to do for a week.

01:37:14   And I'm like, wouldn't it be fun

01:37:15   to take my kid for car shopping?

01:37:18   'Cause I know when I was a kid,

01:37:20   I think we only got two cars in my entire childhood.

01:37:24   But I loved the shopping process.

01:37:27   Like it was so much fun for me to go.

01:37:29   And whenever anyone else,

01:37:31   whenever family friends would buy cars,

01:37:33   I'd wanna go with them to their car buying experiences.

01:37:36   'Cause it's just fun, you know?

01:37:37   And I wasn't sure if Adam would like it or not.

01:37:40   So he's 10, so that's like right at the age

01:37:42   where I think you start thinking this stuff is cool.

01:37:44   So anyway, I decided, all right, we're gonna go off.

01:37:46   I plan this whole trip, we're gonna go off

01:37:48   and go to Toyota, Jeep, Land Rover, drive all three,

01:37:51   and I'm gonna have Adam actually rank them as well

01:37:54   to see what he thinks.

01:37:55   'Cause I never sit in the backseat.

01:37:57   I don't know what's important for backseat passengers

01:38:00   the way he does, and he had a lot of fun doing it.

01:38:03   And so he developed a 25 point review scale for the cars.

01:38:07   - Oh my god.

01:38:09   - There were 10 points allocated for what he first called

01:38:12   comfortability, I later taught him the word comfort,

01:38:15   and that's the word I'm looking for, so he corrected it.

01:38:18   So 10 points for rear seat comfort,

01:38:21   10 points for rear seat visibility,

01:38:24   and five points for smell.

01:38:27   (laughing)

01:38:29   - Okay.

01:38:30   (laughing)

01:38:31   - He also ranked the dealers themselves,

01:38:34   separately from the vehicles.

01:38:35   He didn't have a point scale for the dealers themselves,

01:38:38   but he wanted to rank things like,

01:38:40   how comfortable are the chairs that he was forced to sit in

01:38:43   while I was talking to the salespeople?

01:38:45   One of the, so we first went to Toyota,

01:38:48   because I thought the 4Runner

01:38:49   was the most likely thing I would pick.

01:38:52   - I maintain, I still think, leaving aside the fact,

01:38:57   which is a big aside, and I'm coming back to it,

01:38:59   Leaving aside the fact that the on-road manners of a Jeep Wrangler are not stupendous, I will

01:39:03   concede that.

01:39:04   I still think, all things considered, the Wrangler is the best option.

01:39:09   And for the purposes of the show, if nothing else, if you somehow end up with a freaking

01:39:14   Wrangler and I don't, that would be amazing.

01:39:19   And so I stand by.

01:39:20   I think the Wrangler is the most correct answer.

01:39:24   I think, however, that if you do any of these terrible ideas, and the Wrangler is also a

01:39:28   a terrible idea in its own way.

01:39:30   I think you're going to end up in the Defender

01:39:33   because it is the most Marco answer possible.

01:39:36   With that said, John, I would like your opinion,

01:39:38   and then please, I would like the blow-by-blow

01:39:40   in excruciating detail of all these visitors.

01:39:42   - Well, I mean, I am against the Wrangler for many reasons,

01:39:44   and now, when I'm thinking about the comfortability score

01:39:47   of that Wrangler, it's not looking good.

01:39:50   I really don't think those back seats

01:39:52   are gonna be Adam pleasing.

01:39:54   I would lobby for, excluding the comfort of the chair,

01:39:58   Adam had to sit in while you talked to the dealer

01:39:59   from your decision making matrix.

01:40:02   - Fair enough.

01:40:03   And also, I've been not massively drawn to Wranglers so far,

01:40:08   but the 4xe, being a plug-in hybrid

01:40:11   with like a 20 mile battery only range,

01:40:13   and by all accounts a very good plug-in hybrid,

01:40:16   that really got my attention.

01:40:17   And that's why I started looking at Jeep again,

01:40:19   because I love electric so much,

01:40:22   that is the only even electric-ish off-road option

01:40:26   besides Rivian.

01:40:27   And therefore, it's the only electric-ish option

01:40:29   you can get for a nice off-road vehicle

01:40:32   that you can actually buy today,

01:40:34   that's actually available to buy.

01:40:36   So that's what got me looking at it.

01:40:38   But I admit, I had low expectations of the rest of it,

01:40:41   but I thought electric is really compelling to me,

01:40:44   so let me give that a really good look.

01:40:47   - And before people send things in,

01:40:48   there are a lot of electric SUVs,

01:40:51   it's just that the offer demands,

01:40:52   or at least according to Marco's criteria,

01:40:54   We need more than something like the Solterra from Subaru

01:40:58   and the Toyota Twin to that.

01:41:00   There's lots of small SUVs that are full electric,

01:41:02   or even something like the Mustang Mach-E

01:41:05   that are basically tall wagons.

01:41:06   Those apparently don't have the off-road chops

01:41:10   to do what needs to be done.

01:41:11   Only the Rivian and something like a true dedicated

01:41:13   off-road thing like a Wrangler or a Defender,

01:41:15   a 4Runner or something can handle the sand.

01:41:17   - Yeah, those vehicles really,

01:41:19   they mostly lack in ground clearance.

01:41:22   That's what really kills them.

01:41:24   I wonder if an F-150 Lightning would have done the trick,

01:41:27   but I don't think you can get your hands on one.

01:41:28   - Yeah, trucks would, for sure.

01:41:30   Most people out here drive either these off-roaders

01:41:33   or very large SUVs or trucks.

01:41:36   But I didn't wanna drive a truck.

01:41:38   They're a little bit longer,

01:41:39   which I think makes the maneuverability

01:41:40   a little bit more difficult on these streets,

01:41:42   especially for a truck novice like me.

01:41:45   And also, that's not the kind of cargo allotment that I want.

01:41:49   Because I wanted this to be able to go back and forth

01:41:51   to Westchester, it needs to hold a lot, too.

01:41:53   and trucks can hold a lot in the bed

01:41:56   unless it's raining or snowing

01:41:57   and then you get the covers and all this other,

01:41:59   and I didn't want to deal with any of that.

01:42:01   I just wanted a large vehicle, that's fine.

01:42:03   Anyway.

01:42:04   - Also, I think it's hard to get lightning still.

01:42:05   - Yeah, I agree, I agree.

01:42:06   - I would expect that to be very difficult.

01:42:08   I didn't even look, but yeah, I expect that.

01:42:10   Anyway, so first went to Toyota

01:42:13   because everyone here,

01:42:16   all the year-round residents here who had FJ Cruisers

01:42:19   have replaced them with either 4Runners or Wranglers.

01:42:23   So I figure, all right, the 4Runner-- and the 4Runner,

01:42:25   you know, as soon as you see one,

01:42:26   if you do any research at all or if you see both vehicles,

01:42:28   it's clear that the 4Runner is like--

01:42:30   it has taken up the crown of the FJ Cruiser.

01:42:33   I know I probably existed at the same time, but you know,

01:42:35   it is clearly like this is like the same kind of vehicle

01:42:38   with many of the same kinds of appeal.

01:42:40   OK, so Toyota, you know, the dealer was very convenient.

01:42:44   It's in a great location, giant dealer.

01:42:46   Adam said it was the best chair he ever sat in up to that point.

01:42:50   However, buying a car in mid-2022 is not normal.

01:42:55   Obviously we are in the midst of a supply chain crunch

01:42:59   with the world, and cars in particular

01:43:02   have gotten very hard hit.

01:43:03   And so, to give you some example of the situation,

01:43:06   the Toyota dealership, the dealer website,

01:43:08   listed they had 16 new 4Runners in inventory.

01:43:13   When I got there, they had zero.

01:43:15   - What?

01:43:16   - Also, every new 4Runner they have

01:43:19   has a $7,000 quote dealer adjustment added to the price.

01:43:24   - Oh my gosh, get out of here with that.

01:43:26   - So.

01:43:27   - So you didn't spend very long in Toyota then.

01:43:29   - Well they did have a couple of used ones

01:43:31   that were like a couple of years old

01:43:32   and the thing about the 4Runner is that it basically

01:43:35   has not changed in like 10 years or something.

01:43:38   It's been a long time.

01:43:39   It's a very like old model line that is waiting

01:43:44   for an upgrade that is supposed to be updated

01:43:46   I think next year, but the current one is very old.

01:43:50   - It's also very ugly, what happened to the 4Runner?

01:43:52   I remember it back from when I was a kid,

01:43:54   it did not look this ugly.

01:43:56   - Yeah, but anyway, so I did get to drive a 20,

01:43:59   I think it was a 2020 model, it was a couple years old,

01:44:02   and there aren't really major differences between that

01:44:04   and the new ones, except the new ones have

01:44:06   a slightly bigger media screen,

01:44:09   and they have a nice side camera view,

01:44:13   which I really like a lot, and I wish I got to see it,

01:44:15   but I couldn't.

01:44:16   Compared to the vehicles I was looking at,

01:44:18   the 4Runner is the cheapest, but this is, again,

01:44:21   this is relative and this is with today's market.

01:44:23   The off-road premium model that I'd be looking at

01:44:26   as a minimum would be like $56,000 with the dealer markup.

01:44:31   - Good grief.

01:44:32   - But keep in mind, I have a very highly valued trade-in.

01:44:35   And by the way, not only is the FJ Cruiser worth a lot,

01:44:37   they want it.

01:44:39   It's a rare car that people love and it's in high demand.

01:44:42   They know that they can flip it instantly.

01:44:44   So anyway, I show up at that thing

01:44:46   and I got a lot of salesperson attention.

01:44:47   Hey, what can we get you into today?

01:44:49   But you know, the 4Runner,

01:44:51   it has the worst colors of all the bunch.

01:44:54   It is the oldest looking.

01:44:55   It is the most boring looking.

01:44:57   The interior is exactly what you'd expect from a Toyota.

01:45:00   It is ultra fine.

01:45:03   - I know those feels.

01:45:05   - It is functional and it is totally forgettable.

01:45:08   That being said, it had the biggest trunk space

01:45:10   that I saw that day by a lot.

01:45:12   It has a very big trunk.

01:45:13   Driving felt a lot like the FJ Cruiser, but bigger.

01:45:16   It feels like you're driving a giant box,

01:45:18   and that is not a great thing. (laughs)

01:45:21   Visibility is okay, not great.

01:45:24   Backup camera and screen are still very old,

01:45:27   low resolution, as I mentioned,

01:45:29   the modern ones are improved, but not massively so.

01:45:31   And it has, because it's such an old platform,

01:45:34   it has an old engine and a five-speed automatic transmission

01:45:36   and that really, they really hold it back

01:45:38   and they make it feel old.

01:45:39   Like, when you step on the gas and it has to wait,

01:45:42   wait, wait, and then upshift to this very different gear

01:45:46   from the one it was in, you kind of feel like,

01:45:48   okay, now I understand why these eight

01:45:51   and 10-speed automatic transmissions are better

01:45:52   than the old five-speed ones,

01:45:54   'cause you have a lot more gears in the middle

01:45:55   that it can shift to and be more responsive

01:45:58   and more efficient and everything.

01:45:59   But ultimately, the 4Runner didn't make me feel excited

01:46:03   because it felt like an old car being sold as new.

01:46:07   It's like if you bought one of the non-Retina MacBook Airs

01:46:10   brand new in like 2018.

01:46:13   Like it felt like that.

01:46:14   Like overall, I came out of the 4Runner experience

01:46:18   thinking like, okay, I'm probably gonna end up buying this,

01:46:21   but I'm not excited about it.

01:46:22   This is a vehicle, it serves a function,

01:46:24   it will take me where I'm going, and I will feel nothing.

01:46:27   That's the function this vehicle serves.

01:46:30   - So it's a Toyota.

01:46:31   It gets you where you're going

01:46:32   and you feel nothing along the way.

01:46:34   - Exactly.

01:46:34   Then we went over to Jeep.

01:46:36   I wanted to drive the 4xe.

01:46:37   So the Jeep, the dealer, it was not a great,

01:46:40   It was like this terrible location.

01:46:42   Adam did appreciate that it had balloons

01:46:45   inside the dealer room.

01:46:47   Everything was like all red, white, and blue,

01:46:49   flag balloons, it was super over the top with yeah, America.

01:46:53   He rated the chairs as medium.

01:46:55   The dealer listed that they had eight new Wrangler

01:46:58   four by e's in inventory.

01:47:00   They had one.

01:47:02   - That's better than zero. - Yes.

01:47:03   (laughing)

01:47:04   And they seemed to be selling it for MSRP.

01:47:07   So not adding on weird things to the price.

01:47:09   - All so impressive.

01:47:10   - Yeah, very.

01:47:11   So we went out for a test drive.

01:47:13   The battery was totally dead.

01:47:15   - There's a surprise, of course.

01:47:17   - Great dealer, guys, great, good job.

01:47:19   You're selling an electric car, you don't plug it in.

01:47:21   Thanks a lot.

01:47:21   So I could not test any electric driving at all.

01:47:25   I've watched enough reviews and stuff

01:47:27   that I knew they have these different modes.

01:47:29   You can push this button on the side

01:47:30   for electric only or hybrid or this thing called eSave

01:47:33   where it basically won't use the battery at all

01:47:35   but will charge it as much as possible

01:47:36   with like, regen braking and stuff like that.

01:47:38   So I did the whole test drive in e-save mode

01:47:40   and did a lot of intentional speed up

01:47:43   and then let it regen break for a little while.

01:47:44   And then speed up and just doing a lot of regen

01:47:46   hoping that I could at least at the end of the drive

01:47:48   get a little bit of electric anything.

01:47:50   - Yep, yep, yep, yep.

01:47:51   - I got no electric experience at all.

01:47:54   (laughing)

01:47:55   And this is the only one they had

01:47:56   and I'm not gonna sit there all day

01:47:58   waiting for them to try to charge it.

01:47:59   You know, I have a 10 year old

01:48:00   and I have other stuff to do, so you know.

01:48:02   But I will say, so, and the Wrangler,

01:48:05   this is, for a decent 4xe,

01:48:07   we're looking at like $70,000.

01:48:09   This is not--

01:48:10   - Which, just real quick,

01:48:11   Wranglers are absurdly expensive.

01:48:14   Like I understand they hold their value, blah, blah, blah.

01:48:16   But they are ridiculously expensive.

01:48:20   Part of the reason I'm in a Golf R right now

01:48:21   and not a Wrangler is because I've started

01:48:23   pricing out Wranglers and even getting like a beater Wrangler

01:48:26   and optioning it with what I consider to be

01:48:28   the bare minimum amount of options,

01:48:30   this is what, three, four years ago now,

01:48:31   it was still like 50, $55,000 four years ago.

01:48:35   They are so expensive, it's preposterous

01:48:38   that you could spend $70,000 on a Wrangler

01:48:40   and not even blink an eye.

01:48:41   - Yeah, and again, and cars in general right now

01:48:43   are very expensive, but the Wrangler, you're right,

01:48:45   the Wrangler's kind of always been like this.

01:48:48   But I will say, so it was, it kind of surprised me, actually.

01:48:51   I'd never actually driven a Jeep before.

01:48:53   It was much smaller inside than the others.

01:48:57   Now it's interesting, it's not that much smaller outside.

01:49:00   They're big vehicles.

01:49:03   They are full-sized SUVs, basically,

01:49:06   between the Forerunner, the Wrangler, and the Defender.

01:49:08   They're all about the same size.

01:49:09   They're within a couple of inches here and there,

01:49:11   but they're all approximately the same size.

01:49:13   So anyway, it was very cramped inside,

01:49:16   'cause the Jeep, it kinda flares out the body

01:49:19   from the doors and everything,

01:49:20   and so the inside's kind of like,

01:49:22   it's like somebody applied padding or a margin.

01:49:25   They inset the whole inside compared to the footprint.

01:49:28   So you have a lot less space in the Wrangler than the others.

01:49:32   both the trunk space, and I hated the way the trunk opens

01:49:35   where you have to like pull the bottom out

01:49:37   and then lift the glass up, 'cause like, that's not,

01:49:40   that, I did not like that at all.

01:49:42   But everything is cramped in the Jeep.

01:49:44   Even the controls are cramped,

01:49:45   because since you can remove the doors,

01:49:48   they don't put any controls on the doors.

01:49:50   So everything is just shoved into the middle

01:49:52   in this giant, this wall of like switches.

01:49:55   - Yeah, that's fair, that's fair.

01:49:56   But at least you have switches, I mean,

01:49:57   it's more than we can say for your damn Tesla.

01:49:58   - That's true, that's true.

01:50:00   Also, because the Jeep is convertible,

01:50:04   you have those giant, what are they,

01:50:06   like the C pillars, the big diagonal pillars

01:50:08   that run from the back seat into the trunk.

01:50:09   You have these giant pillars that are eating

01:50:11   into the inside space even more.

01:50:13   And so it feels like you're in a roll cage

01:50:17   for a race car inside your car.

01:50:19   - Well you are, I mean that is what you were in.

01:50:21   - Yeah, you literally are.

01:50:22   So everything kind of just felt cramped.

01:50:25   Niceness-wise, this does not feel like a $70,000 car,

01:50:29   even at today's prices.

01:50:30   And Adam did not appreciate the comfortability

01:50:33   of the back seat.

01:50:34   The headrest in particular, he said,

01:50:36   like it was tilting his head at a weird angle.

01:50:38   It was not getting good reviews from either of us.

01:50:40   That being said, when I drove it,

01:50:42   even without the electric drivetrain working,

01:50:44   stupid dealers, it was surprisingly fast and nimble.

01:50:48   I was very pleasantly surprised by that,

01:50:50   much more so than the others.

01:50:52   Like, the 4Runner just felt like a big slow box.

01:50:55   the Wrangler really felt almost car-like

01:50:59   in its weight and nimbleness, nimbility, whatever,

01:51:03   I don't know. (laughs)

01:51:05   I was very impressed by how it felt, how it handled.

01:51:08   If I actually had electric to help me out,

01:51:10   it would have been even better.

01:51:12   I totally see why people buy them.

01:51:15   And in fact, I would even say it did not seem

01:51:18   less comfortable on the road

01:51:20   than the 4Runner or the FJ Cruiser.

01:51:23   So sorry, Jon.

01:51:24   Thank you. Thank you. I consider this a moral and personal victory. I know you're not going

01:51:29   to buy a Wrangler. Maybe you didn't hit any potholes. Oh, stop it, John. Well, hitting

01:51:34   a pothole in any of these vehicles is not fun, but the other ones have independent suspension,

01:51:38   don't they? Uh, I think so. Yeah. But I was expecting it to be way more rough than, than

01:51:44   what it was. Thank you very much. I would say it is exactly as comfortable in at least,

01:51:49   you know, for like, you know, a 10 or 15 minute test drive. It was exactly as comfortable

01:51:53   as the 4Runner in my opinion.

01:51:54   - Well, Adam disagrees.

01:51:55   - Oh, yeah, okay.

01:51:56   - Frankly though, I think the Jeep would be low on my list.

01:52:00   Also because I learned since then

01:52:02   that that electric range of 20 miles or so,

01:52:05   on the sand it would be more like four maybe?

01:52:10   - 20 yards maybe.

01:52:11   - You said you only need three, you're good.

01:52:13   - Yeah, but okay, so I can power off one way

01:52:15   and then not be able to use electric on the way back at all?

01:52:18   So it's not great.

01:52:20   the appeal is less so when it's that short.

01:52:23   But that being said, as they have things like,

01:52:25   they have a Cherokee 4xe that's kind of out,

01:52:29   but nobody has them yet, but you know,

01:52:31   so that might become something in the future, who knows.

01:52:33   But anyway, I totally appreciate the Wrangler,

01:52:37   now that I've driven one.

01:52:38   It's not for me though.

01:52:39   It has a lot of personality that the 4Runner doesn't have.

01:52:43   You drive that car and you feel something,

01:52:45   but it's not what I wanna feel. (laughs)

01:52:47   - And that's fair. - But I get it.

01:52:49   Like I get why people like it.

01:52:50   - I consider this a victory in the KC camp.

01:52:53   I just wanted you to understand

01:52:56   that this isn't a rolling piece of crap.

01:52:59   I totally understand and sympathize

01:53:01   that it may not be for you.

01:53:02   That's fine.

01:53:03   There's nothing wrong with that.

01:53:05   But if you were to look at the chats

01:53:07   that the three of us and a few other people

01:53:09   on the relay slack were having,

01:53:10   according to John and Marco before Marco drove it,

01:53:13   that thing was like driving on wheels shaped like squares.

01:53:17   Like that's how rough apparently it is.

01:53:19   - I mean, did you take it like on the highway,

01:53:21   like 70 miles an hour?

01:53:22   I mean, it's not.

01:53:23   - Jon, when was the last time you were in a Wrangler?

01:53:25   - I don't know, but they don't get good reviews.

01:53:28   Like I said, the phrase that rings the mind

01:53:30   when I see this thing, and granted,

01:53:31   this is a fancy Wrangler and it's not like a two door,

01:53:34   tiny thing with a short wheelbase or whatever,

01:53:35   but we've said this in past programs,

01:53:37   like driving a grand piano with the door open on it.

01:53:41   Or the lid open, sorry.

01:53:42   Driving like, driving a grand piano with the lid open.

01:53:44   - I will say too, the one we were test driving

01:53:46   had the electrically retractable soft top roof.

01:53:50   And boy, that thing leaks a lot of sound.

01:53:53   And probably temperature as well, if I had to guess.

01:53:55   - So did you drive it on the highway or no?

01:53:57   - No, we were on like, you know,

01:53:59   Long Island car dealer neighborhoods.

01:54:01   There were these, you know, you could go like 55

01:54:03   on some of the bigger roads for a little while

01:54:04   and then you'd stop and turn and, you know,

01:54:06   go down some side streets, then go back to the bigger roads.

01:54:08   You know, that kind of thing.

01:54:09   - 'Cause I have to imagine that the 4Runner

01:54:11   is going to be smoother and quieter at highway speeds.

01:54:13   - Maybe, well, and also, I should point out too,

01:54:16   With the FJ and with the way I drive these things,

01:54:18   because these trips begin and end on sand,

01:54:21   you don't keep very much tire pressure.

01:54:23   When you have low-ish tire pressure,

01:54:26   you don't wanna be driving that fast on the highway

01:54:28   or taking really fast turns or anything.

01:54:30   So I drive these vehicles very gently,

01:54:33   and on the highway, I don't usually go above 60.

01:54:37   I keep it very slow. - You wouldn't re-inflate

01:54:40   after getting off the sand?

01:54:41   - If I was going to Westchester, I would.

01:54:43   But if I'm just going to the grocery store, no.

01:54:45   So therefore I keep it slow and gentle for sure.

01:54:50   Anyway, the Jeep, again, I get it now much more

01:54:54   than I did before, but it's not for me.

01:54:56   Like it's clearly, you give up so much

01:54:59   for it to be convertible and disassemblable,

01:55:03   and those are things I don't wanna give up,

01:55:05   and I don't need that.

01:55:06   So, went over to Land Rover, it was across the street

01:55:09   conveniently, Long Island.

01:55:10   Adam's chair rating was medium,

01:55:14   Although he later found the large leather cube chair.

01:55:18   Like, after the test drive he found that

01:55:21   and then he upgraded his rating to the best chairs.

01:55:25   - Oh, excellent.

01:55:26   - He also, he was, this was getting in mid-afternoon,

01:55:30   we're getting a little bit hungry and bored by this point.

01:55:33   So I found the little push button coffee machine

01:55:36   in their waiting area and it had a hot chocolate option.

01:55:40   He gave solid marks for that.

01:55:43   He did suggest, next to the coffee push button maker thing,

01:55:46   there was another push button machine

01:55:48   for dispensing all sorts of garbage chemical sweeteners

01:55:50   to your coffee.

01:55:51   He suggested they should add marshmallows to the dispenser

01:55:54   for the hot chocolate users,

01:55:55   which I think was a good suggestion.

01:55:56   Anyway, the dealer website here

01:55:59   listed four new Defenders available.

01:56:02   Zero of the four were actually there.

01:56:04   - Oh, cool.

01:56:06   Why'd you settle on the Defender, by the way,

01:56:08   of all the vehicles that they offer?

01:56:11   it seemed like the most direct competitor for these things.

01:56:15   I don't know, I didn't look that much into it,

01:56:16   to be honest. (laughs)

01:56:17   But like, their other ones seem like they're both

01:56:20   more expensive and, you know,

01:56:23   that you give a bit on stuff like ground clearance

01:56:25   and a little bit of the off-road abilities.

01:56:27   So anyway, they had no new Defenders available,

01:56:30   despite listing four of them on the website.

01:56:32   The new models on the website, they listed a quote,

01:56:37   accessories charge on each one

01:56:40   that was between 12 and $19,000.

01:56:44   - Oh my gosh.

01:56:44   - And it would say what it was for

01:56:46   and it was for vague things like the protector package.

01:56:50   - What?

01:56:51   - It's like stuff that,

01:56:52   they're obviously, this is just their dealer markup,

01:56:54   but they just for whatever reason

01:56:56   didn't want to say that or couldn't say that.

01:56:58   Anyway, they did however have one use defender

01:57:05   from last year, the 2021 model, on the lot.

01:57:08   And there was a customer-owned one parked in the lot

01:57:12   that was a different color that I could compare.

01:57:14   I could test drive the one used one they had.

01:57:16   And it had most of what I wanted anyway.

01:57:18   So anyways, I'm like, all right, let me see this.

01:57:20   And it was light, it's one year old, 10,000 miles, great.

01:57:23   Overall, the interior space was very kind of medium.

01:57:27   The 4Runner was the most space by far.

01:57:29   The Jeep was the least space by far.

01:57:30   This was right in the middle.

01:57:31   Medium-sized trunk.

01:57:32   For some reason, massively tall headroom.

01:57:35   Even John, I think, would feel comfortable

01:57:38   with his perfect hair in this car.

01:57:40   - Land Rovers are always very tall cars.

01:57:42   They look tall, and I guess they are tall in real life.

01:57:44   They're just, you know, the better to tip over.

01:57:47   - Yeah, oh, people in chat are asking which size Defender,

01:57:49   the four-door 110 model.

01:57:52   They, apparently they have a 130 coming out now

01:57:54   that's even bigger, if that's like Casey's SUV size,

01:57:57   'cause it has to fit more people in it,

01:57:58   but no, this is the 110,

01:58:00   the kind of medium-sized four-door one.

01:58:02   Anyway, so we went for a test drive on that.

01:58:04   I will say also, after the test drive, this was fun,

01:58:08   it's one of these dealers that has like this little

01:58:10   mini off-road demo course like in the parking lot.

01:58:13   - Oh, that's cool, that's not fair.

01:58:15   - And so the salesman took us on this.

01:58:18   I thought I was gonna die,

01:58:20   Adam thought it was the most amazing thing ever.

01:58:23   Where you know, the car, you drive the car up

01:58:25   on this like 45 degree angle and you're like,

01:58:28   how is it not tipping over?

01:58:30   I feel like it should, why is it not,

01:58:32   like it should be tipping over and it doesn't.

01:58:34   It was really fun, but.

01:58:36   - This is the most off-road use

01:58:37   that most of the cars they sell are ever going to get

01:58:39   is in this parking lot.

01:58:41   You're actually gonna use it off-road,

01:58:42   but most people are like.

01:58:43   - Exactly.

01:58:45   Anyway, so yeah, everything inside was medium-sized.

01:58:48   By far the nicest interior.

01:58:51   Not even close.

01:58:52   - There's the surprise.

01:58:53   - Not even a little bit close.

01:58:54   Like, by far the nicest interior.

01:58:57   Also, by far the nicest drive.

01:59:00   I was surprised how car-like it was in handling.

01:59:04   Not in size, it felt like a big car, a very big car.

01:59:09   And all of these cars, when I'm driving them,

01:59:11   because I'm used to driving car cars,

01:59:14   I'm used to sitting much lower,

01:59:16   and all of these feel like I'm sitting in the sky.

01:59:19   Not only is it an SUV, it's an off-road SUV.

01:59:22   So you're looking down into other SUVs.

01:59:25   You're even higher than most SUVs are by six or seven inches.

01:59:29   So you're looking down, it's the weirdest thing for me

01:59:32   'cause I don't usually drive these kind of vehicles.

01:59:34   So it's like, anyway, it's good to feel tall.

01:59:37   Yeah, so the Land Rover easily won the Adam vote

01:59:44   with its many USB charging ports everywhere.

01:59:47   He was amazed that his back seat had three USB charging

01:59:50   ports available within his reach.

01:59:52   By far the nicest screen, like the big media screen,

01:59:58   It has this really nice 360 degree camera system.

02:00:01   It uses multiple cameras to simulate an actual 360,

02:00:05   like super round view of the car.

02:00:08   So you have both the top down view

02:00:09   and you can back it out and look up YouTube videos of this.

02:00:12   - Doesn't your Tesla do that too?

02:00:14   - No, it doesn't.

02:00:15   Tesla has backup camera and that's it.

02:00:17   - Wow, that's probably, yeah, all the big Lux brands

02:00:19   have the super round the camera, the car thing now.

02:00:22   - Yeah, Aaron's car does.

02:00:23   - Oh my god, it was so nice.

02:00:25   And the other two-- - Your M5 had that.

02:00:27   - No, it had top down. - Yes it did.

02:00:29   - Yeah, it had top down.

02:00:30   It only had sides and back, it didn't have a front camera,

02:00:32   so it was a little bit limited.

02:00:33   But anyway, and the Forerunner has the side cameras

02:00:36   and sort of a front one now,

02:00:38   and it's a similar kind of camera arrangement,

02:00:43   but they don't composite it together into anything cool,

02:00:45   but it does have that for reference.

02:00:47   But when I saw that in YouTube reviews, I'm like,

02:00:50   "Oh my God, to have that on the streets here,

02:00:52   "when I have to back up and not crush somebody's lawn

02:00:56   or break their fence, or if I back up into somebody's

02:01:01   side street to let a car pass, like oh my god,

02:01:04   to have that over what I've been doing with the FJ

02:01:07   is very different. (laughs)

02:01:10   It also has, I've never seen this before.

02:01:14   Maybe you guys know about these.

02:01:15   It has an option that if you flip the rear view mirror

02:01:19   so that normally you'd flip it to turn on the polarizer

02:01:21   or whatever, it uses a camera in the rear fin

02:01:26   on the roof and gives you a screen as your rear view mirror.

02:01:30   - Yeah, I'm familiar with this as a thing.

02:01:31   I don't know of any models off the top of my head

02:01:33   other than this that have it,

02:01:34   but I'm familiar with this as a thing.

02:01:36   - Yeah, that's the thing.

02:01:37   I spent on supercars where there's no rear visibility,

02:01:41   there's only a screen, but yeah,

02:01:42   the ones that switch between regular and screen.

02:01:44   And honestly, I understand why they have both

02:01:46   and the ones where you have both,

02:01:47   'cause screen technology is such that there are situations

02:01:50   where the mirror is superior to the screen,

02:01:53   but that gap is shrinking real quick.

02:01:55   I do wonder how long, because the advantage

02:01:57   the camera has is it's unobstructed view, right?

02:01:59   It doesn't have to go through people's heads

02:02:01   or headrest or anything like that.

02:02:01   - Or the spare tire mounted on the back trunk lid.

02:02:04   - Exactly, yeah.

02:02:05   Or the car or the cargo, if you've packed the thing

02:02:08   with cargo, you can't see anything, right?

02:02:09   - Yeah, the rear visibility outside of all these vehicles

02:02:11   is compromised because there's a wheel

02:02:14   stuck to the back of them, and you're going through it.

02:02:16   The visibility with this camera mirror

02:02:19   was better than the visibility out of any car I've ever seen.

02:02:21   Like, it's better than my Tesla,

02:02:22   'cause it has the headrest in the way

02:02:24   and the shape of the trunk.

02:02:25   Oh my God, massive game changer to see that kind of mirror.

02:02:29   That was amazing.

02:02:30   Also, Adam said it had the nicest smell.

02:02:32   So by far the nicest option of all the contenders,

02:02:38   but also the most expensive.

02:02:39   So it's basically the Apple/Marco choice, right?

02:02:43   It was the only one that I actually felt something about

02:02:48   and I actually wanted after the test drive.

02:02:52   The other ones, I walked away, I'm like,

02:02:54   Okay, fine, you know.

02:02:56   This, me feeling like I wanted an SUV

02:03:00   is like John wanting a laptop.

02:03:03   That doesn't happen.

02:03:04   Like, this is a category of things

02:03:06   that I don't think I ever want.

02:03:08   I actually wanted this.

02:03:09   Even though it was more money than the others,

02:03:12   it wasn't even that much more.

02:03:14   Like, when you compare, you know,

02:03:16   it was like the difference between economy

02:03:18   and first class on a plane,

02:03:19   but if first class only costs like 30% more

02:03:22   instead of three times more.

02:03:24   And if you were committed to your choice

02:03:26   for like years instead of hours.

02:03:28   It was a huge difference in niceness and features

02:03:34   and comfort for not a huge price increase.

02:03:39   So I got it.

02:03:41   - Wait, the used one?

02:03:42   - Yep.

02:03:43   - Oh, well congratulations.

02:03:45   So to be clear, you decided to replace,

02:03:50   a admittedly old but still a Toyota,

02:03:53   which will probably run until the end of time.

02:03:56   You decided to replace that with a British SUV.

02:03:59   Godspeed.

02:04:00   - The Toyota's engine would run until the end of time.

02:04:03   - Yeah, fair, fair.

02:04:04   - Did you buy it or did you lease it?

02:04:06   - I bought it, 'cause I mean,

02:04:08   can you believe in lease a used car?

02:04:09   - What happened to the whole leasing plan?

02:04:11   The whole idea was you got the two year window,

02:04:13   you don't want the car that's gonna be damaged by salt,

02:04:15   you do the lease, you give it back

02:04:16   at someone else's problem.

02:04:17   What happened to that?

02:04:18   First of all, the prices of the new ones,

02:04:21   especially being so inflated by the dealers,

02:04:23   are way more than the prices of the used ones.

02:04:25   The difference is even bigger than it usually is

02:04:27   between new and used.

02:04:28   And I don't know if I'm gonna need this car

02:04:31   for one year, two years, or maybe even three years.

02:04:33   I don't know.

02:04:34   So to have the flexibility is actually nice,

02:04:37   plus to apply a trade-in that covered half the cost

02:04:42   was very, very nice.

02:04:45   I don't even know how you would've done that,

02:04:46   because I think the trade in value would have covered

02:04:48   all of the lease payments.

02:04:49   So I don't even know if that would even function that way.

02:04:52   Anyway, so that's why I did that.

02:04:54   And the condition of the frame and stuff on the FJ

02:04:58   and the amount of rust,

02:04:59   trading into a dealer was the way to go.

02:05:02   And they saw it, they knew what it was.

02:05:03   But they also know the market.

02:05:05   They did the same research I did,

02:05:06   found out they could probably flip it to some auction

02:05:08   for X dollars and they gave me a really good price.

02:05:11   I negotiated a very good price for the trade

02:05:13   and everything, so it was, yeah.

02:05:14   That was good.

02:05:16   - So what color is it?

02:05:17   - It is the blue.

02:05:18   - All right.

02:05:19   - And that's part of the reason why

02:05:21   I got the used one actually.

02:05:22   I had located, there was a new one coming in

02:05:26   in the green color, coming into a different dealer

02:05:29   sometime soon, but I said at the front of this,

02:05:32   they had a used one a lot and they had a customer's car

02:05:35   that was owned so I couldn't drive it.

02:05:37   The customer's car was the green color.

02:05:39   And I parked it right next to each other

02:05:40   and I looked at it, I'm like, you know,

02:05:42   I don't like the green actually.

02:05:43   In person, it's much lighter than you think it is.

02:05:47   It looks almost like a green tinted silver.

02:05:49   And the interior trim of the one that I had located

02:05:53   was all green trim also, like green leather and stuff.

02:05:56   And I'm like, it looked very military.

02:05:59   And there's a lot of black trim on them.

02:06:01   And the combination of the green with all the black trim,

02:06:05   I didn't think it looked as nice in person

02:06:07   as I wanted it to.

02:06:08   Whereas the blue, I was like, oh my god, I have to have that.

02:06:11   The blue is so nice. (laughs)

02:06:13   - This website is so terrible I cannot for the life of me

02:06:15   go to a configurator and let me change the color to blue.

02:06:17   It's like, oh this trim level is only available

02:06:19   in these two colors, just show me a blue one.

02:06:20   Can you have a picture?

02:06:21   - Make the window narrow.

02:06:23   The whole website's broken,

02:06:23   but if you make the window narrow,

02:06:25   it changes the whole layout

02:06:25   and you get a thing on the side and it works.

02:06:28   Yeah, it's like a medium, it's called Tasmagm blue,

02:06:30   it's like a medium blue, kind of like a,

02:06:32   I don't know if like a dusk kind of, I don't know.

02:06:34   It's a really nice blue.

02:06:36   So anyway, I saw that and I looked at other inventory

02:06:38   and I'm like, you know, and the used one had

02:06:40   Almost all the exact features I wanted,

02:06:43   but it was way less money,

02:06:45   and it was only very lightly used.

02:06:46   And to address Case's reliability question,

02:06:49   I'm probably not going to own it for long enough

02:06:52   for the manufacturer warranty,

02:06:54   which is the first four years to be over.

02:06:57   And that covers all the stuff that Elise would cover.

02:06:59   So I did the research on it.

02:07:02   What does it cover?

02:07:02   Does it cover things like corrosion?

02:07:04   Yes, it was a pretty great fit,

02:07:06   and based on the options of what's actually available,

02:07:10   anywhere in the region, it was an obvious choice.

02:07:15   - Well, congratulations, that's exciting.

02:07:16   It's the most Marco-y of Marco answers.

02:07:18   - Yeah, this is a very predictable result.

02:07:20   - Yeah, exactly, yeah, it's surprising nobody.

02:07:22   I will say, and so I drove it, bought it, did all that,

02:07:26   drove it back to the ferry and everything.

02:07:28   It is really nice.

02:07:31   It is still a very big car,

02:07:33   and part of it is just that I'm not used to driving vehicles

02:07:37   the size or height in the sky.

02:07:40   And so I keep thinking it's bigger than it is.

02:07:43   Like I'll park it in a spot using the amazing camera system

02:07:46   and I'll be like, oh my god,

02:07:47   I feel like I'm just barely fitting here.

02:07:49   And then I get out and I'm like, oh my god,

02:07:50   I have like four feet around me, like it's fine.

02:07:54   The instrument cluster has a bunch of customization options

02:07:58   and everything, none of them are amazing but some are okay.

02:08:01   I love having a sunglasses holder on the roof.

02:08:05   Like many cars do.

02:08:07   One thing that Tesla sucks at is there's never anywhere

02:08:11   in a Tesla to put your sunglasses.

02:08:13   - She's got a Honda Accord,

02:08:14   sunglasses holding right in the roof.

02:08:15   - Golf R, I have two of them.

02:08:16   - Yeah, every car has a place to put sunglasses

02:08:20   except Tesla, I don't know what it is.

02:08:22   Don't they have sun in California?

02:08:25   I'm pretty sure they're known for that.

02:08:26   - No, it's always foggy, remember?

02:08:27   - Oh yeah, but yeah, so love the,

02:08:31   lots of little details of the interior.

02:08:33   - And it has CarPlay, right?

02:08:34   - Yes, it does, wireless CarPlay.

02:08:37   - Oh, welcome to the new world.

02:08:39   Your Tesla is now ruined, baby.

02:08:41   - I will say the center array of buttons and knobs

02:08:44   that is the main control area for HVAC

02:08:47   and some of the off-roading features and everything,

02:08:49   it is a bit confusing.

02:08:51   I think I just have to get used to it.

02:08:53   There's a lot of good controls everywhere.

02:08:55   One of the things I really love about the CarPlay,

02:08:57   it's something I never have had before,

02:08:59   I love that you can use the steering wheel button for Siri

02:09:02   and that it works instantly.

02:09:04   Before, I would just hold the Siri button on my phone,

02:09:08   going over regular Bluetooth in a Tesla or whatever,

02:09:11   and when you do that, you have to kind of wait a second

02:09:13   or two for the phone to tell the car,

02:09:17   hey, I'm in phone call mode, so turn on your microphone.

02:09:19   And then it kind of beeps and you might hear the doo-doo,

02:09:23   or it might get cut off weirdly,

02:09:25   and so you end up having to retry or fail with Siri a lot

02:09:28   'cause you have this weird delay to take care of,

02:09:31   whereas here, when you have a native Siri button

02:09:33   on the wheel, you just push it, done.

02:09:36   That was really nice.

02:09:37   And otherwise, the rest I don't really know yet.

02:09:40   I haven't driven on the sand yet,

02:09:41   'cause you're not allowed to during the summer.

02:09:43   I don't know how it'll go on the sand yet,

02:09:45   but by all the reviews and everything, I'm very optimistic.

02:09:48   It seems like it's extremely capable off-road.

02:09:51   And that's about it.

02:09:52   - So where is it?

02:09:53   It's in the ferry parking lot now?

02:09:54   - Yeah, I have parked my Tesla in Westchester,

02:09:58   and I'm going to leave it there for a while.

02:10:01   'cause I mean, it's a paid off Tesla

02:10:04   that needs no maintenance basically ever,

02:10:07   and so it's gonna sit there for a while,

02:10:09   and I'm gonna figure out whether I'm going to keep it

02:10:11   for the next two years,

02:10:13   and resume using it when I move back there,

02:10:16   or whether I say, you know what,

02:10:17   the Defender is good enough to serve this role for me

02:10:21   for a while, and then maybe I'll sell the Tesla,

02:10:23   but I don't know.

02:10:24   That decision remains to be seen.

02:10:25   - Don't forget to have someone go and start the engine

02:10:27   on a Tesla at least once a week.

02:10:29   (laughing)

02:10:30   - You didn't answer the most important question.

02:10:32   So Adam, I was hungry for food

02:10:34   and you gave him hot chocolate.

02:10:34   Did you go to my pizza place that I recommended?

02:10:36   Sounds like you didn't.

02:10:37   - No, instead, part of the agreement with Adam

02:10:40   was that if he was gonna come with me

02:10:41   to these car dealerships,

02:10:43   that we were gonna go to Shake Shack afterwards.

02:10:44   So that's what we did.

02:10:46   - You went to Shake Shack instead of my favorite pizza place

02:10:49   in the entire world that you were like five minutes from.

02:10:53   - Sorry.

02:10:54   (laughing)

02:10:55   - Well, when you go there, you get the Land Rover Service.

02:10:57   You can check it out.

02:10:58   (laughing)

02:10:59   - Yeah, which you will be doing sooner than you think,

02:11:01   I'm quite sure.

02:11:02   - Actually, I literally am.

02:11:03   'Cause I ordered the rear recovery loops,

02:11:07   and they're gonna put them in sometime soon,

02:11:08   and I have to bring it in for that.

02:11:09   So yeah, I'm gonna be back there probably in a few weeks.

02:11:13   - Has Tiff even seen it yet?

02:11:14   - Nope.

02:11:15   She declared, 'cause when I'm in car buying mode,

02:11:18   I get really annoying, like, "Hey, what about this?"

02:11:19   Or, "What do you think about this?

02:11:20   "Should we do this, should we do this?"

02:11:21   And eventually, she's just like,

02:11:24   "Just shut up and just get whatever you want, I don't care."

02:11:26   (laughing)

02:11:27   - This sounds familiar.

02:11:28   - She left it to you and Adam to figure out.

02:11:30   - Yes, and Adam had, he had such a blast.

02:11:33   Like, I didn't know how that would go,

02:11:34   'cause I was worried he'd be bored or, you know.

02:11:38   He loved it, he absolutely loved it.

02:11:40   - That's awesome, that's really awesome.

02:11:42   - It was almost worth buying a new car

02:11:44   just for that wonderful bonding experience.

02:11:45   He was like, this is my favorite trip we've taken in months.

02:11:48   Like, he was so happy.

02:11:49   - Oh, that's so great.

02:11:50   - Can we buy a new car next month?

02:11:52   You should say maybe.

02:11:53   - If it's anything like laptops.

02:11:54   - Well, the good thing is the novelty will have worn off,

02:11:56   you know, after this for a while.

02:11:57   So he's not going to care about cars again until it's actually

02:12:00   time to get a new one years from now.

02:12:01   Yeah, I mean, it'll probably-- like,

02:12:03   maybe within high school, you can finally succumb to--

02:12:05   we know where this is going.

02:12:06   You can finally succumb to the pull

02:12:09   and go boat shopping with him.

02:12:11   Oh, no.

02:12:12   Oh, that's true.

02:12:13   That's true.

02:12:14   That's way off in the distance in Marco's future.

02:12:16   No, not a boat person.

02:12:18   It's like a giant black hole for money.

02:12:20   Yep, yep, yep.

02:12:21   No, I got cars for that.

02:12:23   [Door closes]

02:12:25   [BLANK_AUDIO]