494: Ultra-Wideband Park Bench


00:00:00   Do you or your kids or have you or your kids discover geometry - yet?

00:00:05   Geometry - I have no idea what you're talking about. Is that like number munchers? I don't know. No, it's it's a game

00:00:11   so this is like

00:00:12   My kid has been obsessed with this game for a number of months now

00:00:16   And it's one of those games that like spreads to every child's friend the basic gameplay

00:00:21   It's kind of like flappy bird where you're like, you know jumping up and down but taken to the most ridiculous extreme

00:00:28   possible to the point where it's this now it's a huge world the game itself not only does it have a million levels that I have just

00:00:35   huge amounts of complexity tons of visual distractions

00:00:39   It's like crack for your brain

00:00:41   If you if your brain works a certain way

00:00:42   Like it's just this huge amount of stuff on screen all to for this basically, you know, there's like instant death kind of

00:00:49   frustrating hardcore kind of jumping game

00:00:52   and

00:00:53   What's interesting about so there's also a level editor in it

00:00:56   And so of course my kid has gotten into making his own levels and you can submit your levels

00:01:00   It's all right in the game and what I love about this thing

00:01:02   This is not an ad for Jam

00:01:26   100 levels added all like every day or something by people and they get featured every day and like there's all and it's a huge

00:01:32   Community, there's youtubers playing it talking about all that

00:01:34   That's pretty how we found it

00:01:36   like it is it is kind of a joy to me to see this game succeeding in the way it does because

00:01:41   It's succeeding in the way that iOS games used to back before everything was in and I purchased garbage fest

00:01:47   It's just a game that you pay for and you have it and there and like there are stuff you can you can like level

00:01:54   Up to in the game you can get you know better

00:01:56   You know suits or skins or whatever, but you do that by playing the game and like just by like beating levels

00:02:02   It's not by but you don't spend ten bucks on a coin pack to get a treasure loot chest to possibly get you know

00:02:09   It's like it's none of that garbage

00:02:10   It's just a game that you play and you get stuff in the game and you can make stuff in the game

00:02:14   It's this whole thing and it just seems so like nice and wholesome that you know

00:02:19   It's it's just rare and I mean this is not a new game

00:02:22   I'm sure anyone out there who's an iOS gamer has probably gotten tired of this game 10

00:02:27   years ago.

00:02:28   But as somebody who has only seen it recently, I'm very impressed by just how nice of a little

00:02:33   world this game has created.

00:02:34   And just when you see some of the levels that are made, the amount of work and complexity

00:02:41   and artistry that go into it is quite something.

00:02:44   I can't play the game for crap.

00:02:47   This is the kind of game like you play, you jump a few times, you die, you jump a few

00:02:50   times again, you die again.

00:02:51   and I'm like, all right, I wanna throw the iPad

00:02:53   out the window.

00:02:54   I don't have the kind of personality

00:02:55   to play this kind of game.

00:02:56   - Yeah, it's a tip, she managed to last.

00:02:58   - Yeah, right.

00:02:59   (laughing)

00:03:00   But yeah, this is, I'm very impressed by Geometry Dash

00:03:04   and the world around it, and it's pretty cool.

00:03:07   So if you have kids with iPads, check it out.

00:03:10   - A developer should talk to the current Unity CEO,

00:03:13   former EA CEO, who recently said that if you don't think

00:03:16   about monetization during the creative process,

00:03:18   you are a quote, "F-ing idiot."

00:03:20   - Solid Geometry Dash developer, sorry.

00:03:22   The Unity CEO doesn't like you.

00:03:24   - EA deserved that guy.

00:03:25   - Seriously.

00:03:26   - No, no, but Unity's got him now.

00:03:27   He's the CEO of Unity.

00:03:28   We talked about 3D engines last time.

00:03:30   - Oh well.

00:03:31   I'm curious, so my kid's also trying to get into coding

00:03:37   and game creation, and we talked about this

00:03:40   probably a year ago.

00:03:42   I got a bunch of recommendations from listeners.

00:03:45   I don't think he was quite ready for those at the time.

00:03:48   We tried a few.

00:03:49   nothing really stuck, but he did recently finish the first,

00:03:53   I guess, batch of Swift Playgrounds,

00:03:55   and wants to jump into making a very simple game now.

00:03:59   However, you know, he's still young.

00:04:01   I think attention span is still a very challenging thing.

00:04:04   And he suggested trying Unity,

00:04:06   'cause he's heard from YouTubers that you can do that.

00:04:09   And then I heard on the talk show this week,

00:04:11   Jon had on, I forget the guy's name,

00:04:13   the guy who made the Apple Store Time Machine thing

00:04:15   called Shop Different, which is amazing.

00:04:18   I went through it a few days ago, like wow.

00:04:20   That's the whole thing, I was very impressed with that.

00:04:23   Most of them I didn't, I was just kind of

00:04:25   more impressed academically, but then when I went

00:04:26   to the Fifth Avenue, New York, Glass Cube recreation,

00:04:31   I've been to that store a lot during that time period

00:04:34   that it's represented, and it felt like going there again.

00:04:37   It was an incredible recreation,

00:04:38   like it really did nail exactly how it felt.

00:04:41   And to walk through that and be like,

00:04:42   I've been here before, I remember this,

00:04:45   when it looked like this,

00:04:46   That was really quite something.

00:04:48   Anyway, the creator of that mentioned

00:04:49   that he made it in Unity, and that he's not

00:04:52   much of a programmer.

00:04:53   But it was apparently easier to just import stuff.

00:04:56   I don't even know, I know that Unity is a game engine.

00:04:59   Other than that, I don't know anything about Unity.

00:05:01   I couldn't pick it up in a lineup.

00:05:03   - It's like a full IDE, it's like a full IDE

00:05:05   for a 3D environment.

00:05:06   So you could do modeling, texturing, arranging,

00:05:09   geometry, it's still hard to do, it's still complicated.

00:05:11   I remember last time you were looking into Pulp,

00:05:14   what do you call it?

00:05:15   - Yeah, well there's the playdate thing, yeah.

00:05:17   - Yeah, for the play.

00:05:18   - And then we looked into, oh god,

00:05:20   I forget the names of all these things.

00:05:22   The little like, oh god, Pico something?

00:05:25   Pico 8.

00:05:26   - But the pulp you can do all on the web

00:05:27   and it's programming optional.

00:05:29   You're basically dragging tiles around

00:05:30   and setting up rules and then you can dive

00:05:32   into the code if you want to.

00:05:33   - Yeah, yeah, so anyway, I'm looking at,

00:05:35   we're gonna look back into stuff like that again,

00:05:37   but Unity I think is one of the things

00:05:39   that's on the table for like, he's motivated to do it

00:05:43   And what's good about that is that if he runs into questions

00:05:47   or problems, he can just look up the answer on YouTube,

00:05:49   which is how he finds information anyway.

00:05:51   - Oh, no, I can give you one better.

00:05:53   He can ask me.

00:05:55   Because-- - What?

00:05:56   - Do you wanna know, wait, do you,

00:05:57   not because, I don't know crap about Unity

00:05:59   or 3D programming, but do you know what Unity's

00:06:02   scripting engine is written using?

00:06:05   C#, baby, it's all coming back.

00:06:07   - Really? - So he can ask,

00:06:09   oh yeah, oh yeah, how's that make you feel, Marco?

00:06:11   Feel good?

00:06:12   Do you need a shower now?

00:06:13   - So he just needs to learn Java

00:06:14   and he basically knows it, right?

00:06:15   - Ooh, sick burn, but mostly true.

00:06:17   (both laughing)

00:06:20   Honestly, I haven't written C# in 10, 15 years,

00:06:22   something like that, 10 years?

00:06:23   No, maybe less than that.

00:06:24   I don't know, it's been a while though,

00:06:25   and I've probably forgotten everything I once knew.

00:06:27   There was a brief window of time

00:06:28   that I was a pretty good C# developer,

00:06:29   but that was many years ago.

00:06:31   But I don't know, I don't think those muscles

00:06:33   have entirely atrophied quite yet.

00:06:35   - Anyway, so that's gonna be an area that we're looking into

00:06:37   but anyway, all this is to say,

00:06:39   Geometry Dash, thumbs up.

00:06:42   This is news to me.

00:06:43   I'll have to check this out.

00:06:45   - I love those new in-app purchases.

00:06:47   It's just a game.

00:06:49   There was this brief period,

00:06:51   relatively now in retrospect,

00:06:53   this brief period back from 2008

00:06:56   when the apps were launched,

00:06:58   through I would say the first year or two of the iPads,

00:07:02   like 2010 and 2011.

00:07:04   Remember that first batch of iPad games was also this way.

00:07:08   They were really good games that had no in-app purchases

00:07:12   or at least very few, 'cause I think in-app purchase,

00:07:14   I don't think it was available till iOS 5, I think?

00:07:17   - Oh, I don't remember.

00:07:18   - And the iPad launched with iOS 3.2.

00:07:20   So I think there was a two-year span there.

00:07:22   But anyway, the first year or two of the iPad

00:07:26   basically predated the use of in-app purchase

00:07:28   widespread in games.

00:07:29   And the games that came out during those early iPad years

00:07:33   were great, they were so much fun.

00:07:36   You had the first versions of Field Runners,

00:07:39   Plants vs. Zombies, the plane landing game,

00:07:42   what was that called, Flight Control.

00:07:44   There were so many great, amazing games,

00:07:46   and due to a number of unfortunate factors,

00:07:48   most of them you can't even play anymore,

00:07:49   even if you wanted to.

00:07:51   - Was Cut the Rope in that era?

00:07:52   I know it eventually had all in-app purchases,

00:07:53   but I wonder if Cut the Rope predated it

00:07:55   and then you added it later.

00:07:56   - I don't think so.

00:07:57   Cut the Rope, I think, was later.

00:07:58   At least I didn't hear about it

00:07:59   till well into the in-app purchase era.

00:08:01   But those early, man, those early iPad games were so good,

00:08:05   And that era is just gone and most of those games are gone

00:08:08   and they've all been either totally killed

00:08:11   and their companies don't even exist anymore

00:08:12   or they got acquired forever ago by somebody like EA

00:08:15   and shut down and/or they've been remade as modern sequels

00:08:20   that are just in-app purchase casino garbage games.

00:08:22   It's just such a shame 'cause those first games were so fun

00:08:25   and that's why something like Geometry House comes along

00:08:27   or rather sticks around and it's just so refreshing

00:08:30   to see that now when you're used to today.

00:08:33   If somebody recommends an iOS game to me today,

00:08:35   I usually won't even play it because I know it's gonna be full of in-app purchase garbage.

00:08:38   Like unless it's a Zack Gage game, I'm usually out.

00:08:41   But to see something like this that's still doing well and that has the old model is both

00:08:46   rare and refreshing.

00:08:48   Joe Jardasch kind of looks like a combination of an infinite runner and a VVVVVV for kids.

00:08:53   I never got into that one.

00:08:55   What?

00:08:56   Six V's.

00:08:57   It's a very intentionally primitive looking, extremely difficult, unforgiving platformy

00:09:03   jumping game.

00:09:04   I have not heard of this either.

00:09:05   And it reminded me a little of Geometry Dash,

00:09:07   but I only played Geometry Dash for two seconds,

00:09:09   but it seems like it's mostly left to right,

00:09:10   whereas 6Vs is all over the place.

00:09:13   No, it's also all over the place.

00:09:14   There's like, and there's different modes

00:09:16   that turn you into different objects

00:09:18   with different movement characteristics.

00:09:20   You can reverse, you can speed up, you can slow down.

00:09:22   There's all sorts of craziness in there.

00:09:24   Trust me.

00:09:25   Did you show Adam the Vs game,

00:09:26   which I'm not gonna say the name of again,

00:09:28   because if he likes Geometry Dash,

00:09:30   he might like this game as well.

00:09:32   I mean, I think this relies on

00:09:33   a little bit of nostalgia that he obviously doesn't have, but it is similarly punishing

00:09:37   mechanics. And you should get him into like FromSoft games eventually, like the Souls

00:09:40   games when he's older. He likes unforgiving games.

00:09:44   Yeah, he very much does. And it's like, it's kind of rhythm based because the levels have

00:09:49   music and usually the jumps that you need to do will correspond to beats in the music.

00:09:54   So there's that aspect and the music is very like, you know, electronic style, which is

00:09:59   right up his alley.

00:10:01   So that also helps.

00:10:02   So it's a whole picture thing that really hits him.

00:10:07   He loves it, and I love that it's so kind of wholesome

00:10:10   and not in-app purchase garbage fest.

00:10:12   And so it's wonderful.

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00:11:28   [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:11:31   All right, let's do some follow up.

00:11:32   John, you promised us last week, or we assigned homework

00:11:36   last week, that you should compare the M1 MacBook Air

00:11:40   speakers and the M2 MacBook Air speakers.

00:11:42   Have you done your homework, John,

00:11:44   that we should never have assigned you?

00:11:45   I have.

00:11:47   Both speakers are not good.

00:11:50   I told you.

00:11:51   Goes without saying, I was comparing them.

00:11:53   I honestly had never listened to them.

00:11:55   Because like I said, these are my son's laptops,

00:11:57   and he uses headphones all the time

00:11:58   and maybe I hear like the system beep

00:12:00   if I'm ever doing something, that's about it.

00:12:03   And I'm not, you know, that makes it difficult

00:12:05   to compare which one is less bad,

00:12:09   but I think pretty definitively,

00:12:11   the M1 MacBook Air is better.

00:12:14   They both sound bad, but--

00:12:15   - The old one is better?

00:12:17   - Yes.

00:12:17   - Hmm.

00:12:18   - I mean, you can try it yourself.

00:12:19   I don't have particularly attuned ears,

00:12:21   but like, it just felt like the M2

00:12:23   was even more inside a tin can than the M1.

00:12:26   I played music on them, right?

00:12:27   I was playing the same song on both of them

00:12:29   and I'd play one and then play the other

00:12:30   and play one and play the other.

00:12:31   And it's like, oh, they're both really bad.

00:12:33   And it was just, you know,

00:12:34   I just feel like the M1 is better.

00:12:36   I mean, it could be that because the speakers

00:12:39   are like up firing instead of bouncing off the screen,

00:12:41   that could be the entirety of the difference.

00:12:42   But I'm just, to my ears,

00:12:44   the M1 MacBook Air sounded better.

00:12:47   - Wow.

00:12:47   - Not by a lot, they're both bad.

00:12:50   And it was really difficult for me to tell

00:12:52   and I would not play music on either one, that's for sure.

00:12:54   (laughing)

00:12:56   It's funny every time that I use my MacBook Pro as a laptop

00:13:01   because I don't do that often.

00:13:03   It definitely happens, but it's not often

00:13:06   that I'm going and doing work and sitting down

00:13:08   and doing something serious on my MacBook Pro

00:13:10   and using it as it is, you know, not connected to screens

00:13:13   and all sorts of other paraphernalia.

00:13:15   And today I went to my beloved ultra wideband park bench,

00:13:19   as I described a few weeks ago.

00:13:21   And actually, as a quick aside, yesterday,

00:13:23   it was yesterday we went to a museum and then went to lunch in quasi-downtown Richmond and I was

00:13:29   sitting at lunch and I noticed I was on ultra wideband and I did a speed test over three

00:13:34   gigabits down. Over three. That's three times faster than my own connection. It still blows my mind.

00:13:40   I don't know what I would ever do with this but it's still cool that it exists. Technology, baby.

00:13:43   Anyway, so I was at my beloved ultra wideband park bench earlier today and it occurred to me,

00:13:48   you know, the screen on these MacBook Pros is really freaking good and although I only use the

00:13:52   the speakers for but a moment because it's rude to do that in public the

00:13:55   speakers on the MacBook Pro all things considered are pretty darn good too so

00:13:59   I'm not saying that like the MacBook Air is wrong for most people or for really

00:14:03   everyone including probably me it probably is sufficient for my needs for

00:14:07   the most part but but no these computers are really quite spectacular and I

00:14:12   sometimes forget how amazing they are I will say it the the speaker difference

00:14:16   between again as I mentioned last week between the MacBook Air and the 14-inch

00:14:20   MacBook Pro, it's a different league.

00:14:22   It's not even close.

00:14:25   You would think, oh, they made it one inch bigger,

00:14:27   the speaker's a little bit better.

00:14:28   No, totally different ballgame, not even close.

00:14:32   I love the MacBook Air, trust me,

00:14:34   I love, I still love the MacBook Air,

00:14:37   but the speakers are really god-awful

00:14:39   compared to the larger ones, so yeah,

00:14:41   it's no comparison, not even close.

00:14:45   - All right, moving along, I was reminded

00:14:47   via an anonymous contributor that you can set up

00:14:51   a catch-all email on a lot of services,

00:14:54   but including my beloved Fastmail,

00:14:56   www.caseless.com/fastmail.

00:14:59   But anyways, honestly, I forget what the context

00:15:02   for this was, but we were talking about something

00:15:04   last week that brought this on.

00:15:05   - You're setting up the single-use email addresses,

00:15:08   and you had to go to Fastmail and click and make one,

00:15:10   and then you go use it.

00:15:11   - Yes, thank you.

00:15:12   A couple things here.

00:15:13   First of all, you can set up a catch-all email,

00:15:14   which is a little bit weird the way they have you set it up,

00:15:16   but it works exactly right.

00:15:18   And so what I can do is I can sign up for,

00:15:20   I'm not making this up, but I can sign up for Instagram

00:15:22   and have the email address I give Instagram,

00:15:25   instagram@caseylist.com.

00:15:27   And then Fastmail, and again,

00:15:28   this isn't unique to Fastmail,

00:15:29   but Fastmail or whatever will forward that

00:15:32   to my actual email address.

00:15:33   And so this way I can tell where it came from.

00:15:37   Google and Gmail people would often do this

00:15:40   where you would do username plus service.

00:15:43   So it would be like johnplusinstagram@syracusa.com

00:15:48   or whatever the case may be.

00:15:49   And that also works on FastMiller,

00:15:51   I'm pretty darn sure it does.

00:15:52   But you can set up a catchall,

00:15:54   which makes this sort of thing pretty neat as well,

00:15:56   which is something worth considering.

00:15:58   Also, I went back and forth with a few people on Twitter

00:16:01   in a happy way, and I was reminded that in 1Password8,

00:16:06   which is the Electron 1, which has its whole,

00:16:11   You have some issues with that when you go that route.

00:16:14   But, and I had been on 1Password 7

00:16:17   because I had been waiting for the stick

00:16:19   to force me into 1Password 8.

00:16:21   But eventually they gave me a carrot in the last 24 hours

00:16:24   and they said, "Oh, by the way, in 1Password 8

00:16:26   "and only 1Password 8, you can do the whole fast mail,

00:16:31   "masked email," or whatever they call it,

00:16:33   the hidden email address thing,

00:16:35   one time use email address thing,

00:16:37   you can do that automatically within 1Password.

00:16:39   So what that means is you're signing up for a new service,

00:16:41   say Instagram, using the web on your computer,

00:16:45   and you can use 1Password to just automatically generate

00:16:50   a happy.farts@caseylist.com or whatever they come up with

00:16:55   in order to get a email that isn't going to be

00:16:59   something useful and that you can kill pretty easily.

00:17:01   And you can do that all through 1Password

00:17:04   with 1Password 8, which is worth considering

00:17:06   if you happen to be a Fast Mail user.

00:17:08   - That email wild carding thing really maximizes

00:17:10   your service area for spam though.

00:17:12   I mean, if they have any kind of auto thing

00:17:14   that's trying like well-known addresses at every domain

00:17:16   or whatever, you're gonna get all that spam

00:17:18   'cause you can put any word in front of the ad sign

00:17:20   and it will all go to your one email address.

00:17:23   - I don't know if they still do this,

00:17:24   but Fast Mail in their control panel to enable

00:17:27   the catch all email address, they even used to warn you,

00:17:29   like warning, you will get a lot of spam.

00:17:31   And I actually used that mode for a number of years.

00:17:34   It turned, you know, I just kept getting more and more spam.

00:17:36   I'm like, you know what, this is stupid.

00:17:37   And so what I did was I searched my inbox

00:17:40   or sorted it somehow, I forget how I did this,

00:17:41   to basically find the only aliases

00:17:43   I ever actually used for anything,

00:17:45   turned off the catch-all alias,

00:17:47   and just made that list of all the aliases

00:17:50   that I actually needed,

00:17:51   and just stopped using new ones anywhere.

00:17:54   And it was a much better situation, spam-wise.

00:17:57   Also, can I just say, from somebody who deals with customers

00:18:01   and their email logins, for both my app

00:18:05   that I'm trying so hard to not have anybody use emails,

00:18:08   but some people still insist.

00:18:10   And from our wonderful members who we love,

00:18:12   atp.fm/join, nerds who think they're being clever

00:18:15   and they use these custom aliases

00:18:18   and so it'll have like overcast@mydomain.whatever,

00:18:22   or atp membership@mydomain.whatever, you always forget.

00:18:27   And then you write in and then we have to find your account.

00:18:30   It's too clever for your own good most of the time,

00:18:32   So it's something that like, it causes headaches

00:18:35   for everybody, for you, and for the services you use.

00:18:39   And the reality is like, yeah, you know what, great,

00:18:42   you're gonna know if somebody sells your email address.

00:18:44   Great, everyone sells your email address all the time,

00:18:47   it's already out there, who cares?

00:18:48   The gain that you're getting with that,

00:18:50   that you think you're getting with that,

00:18:52   I don't think is worth all of the downsides.

00:18:54   - That's an interesting point for sure.

00:18:57   So last week was one of those weeks

00:18:59   where I thought we were really clear

00:19:02   on the things we were talking about and asking about.

00:19:06   And apparently either nobody heard us

00:19:08   or we didn't clarify quickly enough

00:19:10   because we got a mountain of feedback

00:19:12   where everyone was explaining to us,

00:19:14   "Oh, did you know you can turn off the notifications

00:19:17   for devices and air tags and things

00:19:19   when you leave them behind?"

00:19:20   And I thought that Jon especially,

00:19:22   and I thought I was too, but particularly Jon,

00:19:24   I thought it was very clear that, yes,

00:19:26   we're aware that that is a thing that can happen,

00:19:28   but we don't want to permanently turn it off

00:19:30   for like a vacation home or a hotel room

00:19:32   or something like that.

00:19:33   We just want to maybe turn it off for a few days.

00:19:35   And that was the real complaint we had.

00:19:37   But half of the internet wrote in to tell us,

00:19:40   no, this is what you need to do.

00:19:41   But for the record, John,

00:19:43   if you did want to do that slightly dangerous thing

00:19:46   of turning off the notifications

00:19:48   for a particular location forever,

00:19:50   how do you go about doing that?

00:19:51   - Yeah, Steve Stutz gave concise instructions

00:19:54   if you want to know how to do it.

00:19:54   So you open the Find My App,

00:19:56   you tap on Devices, which is down at the bottom,

00:19:58   and then you tap on the device you want to deal with,

00:20:00   and then you scroll down under the heading Notifications,

00:20:03   tap the Notify when left behind section,

00:20:06   and what you'll probably see in that section

00:20:07   for any of your devices, it says Notify when left behind,

00:20:10   and it will say that it's on, probably,

00:20:12   and it will say Accept at one location,

00:20:14   and you'll be like, wait a second,

00:20:15   did I already use this feature?

00:20:16   What is the one location that it's supposed

00:20:18   to not notify me?

00:20:19   So it's like, notify left behind, accept at this one place.

00:20:21   What is that one place, Casey?

00:20:23   - Home.

00:20:24   - That's right, your home is already there.

00:20:26   So it's, you know, the home is explicitly put there.

00:20:29   So you can add a second location

00:20:31   or a third or a fourth or a fifth,

00:20:32   but your home, if you have your home kit stuff set up,

00:20:34   is already there.

00:20:35   That's why every time you leave your house,

00:20:36   you don't get notified that you left all your stuff behind.

00:20:39   - Indeed, and then Paul Squires writes,

00:20:41   "On the find my alerts from a hotel,

00:20:43   in general, I want to keep those on.

00:20:45   I may be going to dinner,

00:20:46   but I could also be going to an office,

00:20:47   so I want those devices with me.

00:20:49   Also, I definitely want them on for checkout day.

00:20:51   This is an extremely succinct summary

00:20:53   what Jon and I were trying to say.

00:20:55   - Yeah, that's the tricky part about this feature

00:20:58   because like, oh, I don't want it to keep bothering me

00:21:00   unless I'm going to the office and I do want them.

00:21:01   And oh, and by the way, when I check out, I want it too.

00:21:03   So it's not easy to pull this off.

00:21:06   It's not as simple as we were saying in the show,

00:21:07   like, oh, just I'm gonna be here for a week

00:21:08   and just turn them off until a week later, right?

00:21:11   Because if you are somewhere for work,

00:21:13   you want it on every day that you're going to the office,

00:21:15   but not on the days that you're not,

00:21:17   but you definitely want it on for checkout days

00:21:18   so you know if you left stuff behind.

00:21:20   Hard problem to solve.

00:21:21   - And then with regard to HomeKit automation

00:21:23   in locations. So the context here is my Apple TV at the beach house deciding that that was

00:21:28   my permanent home, which was a little wonky. So we had a few different pieces of feedback

00:21:32   about this, but in particular, Derek Martin writes, "I recently had my HomeKit home self-identify

00:21:36   as two properties at once, the new house we just bought and are in the process of moving

00:21:40   into and the old house that we've had for a while and are in the process of leaving.

00:21:45   Whenever I arrived at or left either location, HomeKit would offer to run my location-based

00:21:49   automations. You get one guess as to how I fix this. Yes, that's right, I had to go into

00:21:53   my contact and rename the old house to something other than home, leaving just the new house

00:21:58   named home, and then all of my automations worked properly again. Is there anything to

00:22:01   indicate this in the UI? No. Did I figure it out by pure fluke on my first try? Yes.

00:22:08   So Derek got very lucky there. Additionally, Jim Broun writes, "If you take your Apple

00:22:12   TV outside your home and don't want the offsite device to become the default hub," and this

00:22:16   is exactly what I did when I got home, I just didn't know to do this in advance. Anyway,

00:22:20   Jim writes, "Go to Settings > Airplane Home Kit and under the My Home settings switch

00:22:24   from Connected to Disabled. Then the hub will transfer to another device at your

00:22:28   home." And like I said, this is what I did to kind of fix everything once I was

00:22:32   back home, but it wasn't until I was already dead, the damage had already been

00:22:36   done that I had thought to do this. Also, with regard to the Apple TV, Tor Blund

00:22:42   Miranda writes, "We've tried many different Apple TV photo apps, Flickr,

00:22:46   Plex and some others. Apple Photos is far and away the one that's the best for

00:22:50   looking at photos on Apple TV. It loads photos fast and as long as it's your own

00:22:54   library they load in high quality, completely sharp over 4k, not

00:22:57   over compressed, etc. I don't know a single other photos app for Apple TV

00:23:01   that does this well. It's not being able to handle John's photo library

00:23:05   notwithstanding, but let's be real it's John with his enormous photo library

00:23:08   that has the weird way of dealing with photos, not Casey. Boom! Got him! Anyway, I

00:23:12   I'd love to know if there are any others

00:23:15   that are good enough.

00:23:16   For the record, I did not put this in the show notes,

00:23:18   but I was very happy when I read this email.

00:23:19   - I understand what I'm doing is weird.

00:23:21   I'm using Apple's solution in the boring way

00:23:23   that Apple says, take pictures, put them in your photo.

00:23:26   It's not, it's nothing weird about it.

00:23:28   - Honestly, I think I actually agree with you,

00:23:30   but I was so happy to see somebody defend me,

00:23:32   so I'll take the victory nonetheless.

00:23:34   - Yeah, well, so when I saw this, I'm like, okay,

00:23:36   well, I complained about the Apple TV photos thing

00:23:38   every few years.

00:23:39   I should look at it again to see how it's doing.

00:23:41   So I loaded it up on my Apple TV

00:23:43   and ran into a couple issues.

00:23:46   Since the last time I did it, I think

00:23:48   they changed the way user accounts work on Apple TV.

00:23:54   I think it used to be that there was no accounts,

00:23:56   and you just put which Apple ID do you

00:23:58   want to get your photos from, and you sign into whatever.

00:23:59   But now there are accounts.

00:24:01   And the main user account is mine,

00:24:02   and that has all the home screen sync stuff,

00:24:04   and everything is set up like that.

00:24:06   And I said, OK, I'll just add a user account for my wife.

00:24:08   Why?

00:24:09   'cause we're still not over the hump of iOS 16

00:24:12   and Ventura and everything,

00:24:13   and so there's no shared family photo library,

00:24:16   so I have to use her Apple ID

00:24:18   because she's got the family photo library.

00:24:20   So I made an account for her,

00:24:22   we created an account with her Apple ID,

00:24:23   it's signed in or whatever,

00:24:25   but it seems like the Photos app only shows the photos

00:24:29   for the default user, which is me, and not her.

00:24:33   If you go into her settings,

00:24:34   it shows a bunch of stuff about purchases

00:24:36   and so on and so forth,

00:24:36   but it doesn't have a section for iCloud Photo Library,

00:24:38   so I couldn't even see her iCoFoto library

00:24:40   unless I was willing to, I guess, maybe delete my account

00:24:42   or make her the default user or something like that.

00:24:44   And I wasn't willing to do that

00:24:45   for the purpose of this test.

00:24:48   So instead, I used my Apple ID

00:24:50   and my comparatively dinky photo library,

00:24:52   which consists only of photos I've taken on my phone.

00:24:55   So it's not the 150,000 photo family library,

00:24:58   it's just my phone photos,

00:24:59   which is way smaller than that.

00:25:01   And sure enough, most of them are thumbnails

00:25:03   and they take forever to load.

00:25:04   And if you were trying to use it to actually show something,

00:25:06   you'd just be staring at, you know,

00:25:07   squares with question marks in them for just minutes

00:25:09   and minutes while everyone uncomfortably shifted

00:25:11   on the couch saying, so are we gonna see some pictures?

00:25:13   And the answer is, no, you're probably not.

00:25:15   Like one or two thumbnails will load and maybe you can wait,

00:25:17   but it just doesn't do what you want it to do,

00:25:19   which is you want everyone to sit down

00:25:21   and you wanna click things on the remote

00:25:22   and say, oh look, pictures.

00:25:24   And then you look at them and smile and go to the next one.

00:25:26   Nope, I don't know what the problem is.

00:25:27   I don't know why it has a hard time loading them.

00:25:29   I have a super fast internet connection.

00:25:30   It's on the same network via ethernet

00:25:33   of all the other devices that have these photos on them.

00:25:35   It just doesn't do the job.

00:25:37   And like I said, it's not because it was 150,000 photos,

00:25:39   it was a fraction of that.

00:25:41   So I don't know what the deal is, but still no good.

00:25:44   - I'm sorry.

00:25:44   Yeah, I don't know of any particular answers for this,

00:25:47   I'm sorry to say, but if somebody has a good suggestion,

00:25:50   then please let us know.

00:25:52   - 29,000 photos, just if you want concrete numbers,

00:25:55   that's how many I've got on my phone.

00:25:56   (John laughs)

00:25:58   - Contact's address ordering, tell me about this, John.

00:26:00   - We're still talking about this?

00:26:02   - I know, seriously.

00:26:03   - This is hilarious, right?

00:26:04   So what was it?

00:26:06   The previous show we were talking about

00:26:07   how the existence of a particular application,

00:26:10   so is it an indictment of Apple

00:26:12   because it's the type of thing that shouldn't be necessary.

00:26:14   Oh, I think it was the sleep aid thing,

00:26:15   the thing that keeps track of what's waking

00:26:17   and making your Mac sleep.

00:26:18   And it's like the fact that that Mac app has to exist

00:26:20   shows that there are difficult to solve problems

00:26:23   having to do with sleeping and waking in macOS

00:26:25   that necessitate a third-party application.

00:26:28   It makes a third-party opportunity

00:26:30   to address the shortcomings in Apple's OS.

00:26:32   Well, we also talked about contacts

00:26:34   and how people can have multiple phone numbers

00:26:36   and multiple email addresses,

00:26:37   and there's an order to them in contacts,

00:26:42   but it's difficult to discern

00:26:43   whether that order has any meaning,

00:26:45   and if you want it to have meaning,

00:26:46   you can do what I did and reorder them

00:26:48   by deleting them all and adding them back

00:26:50   in the order that you want them to appear in.

00:26:52   Well, apparently there is a dedicated application

00:26:54   called Reorder It!

00:26:56   just like Yahoo!

00:26:57   on the App Store, and the only thing this app does

00:27:02   is lets you reorder contacts personally

00:27:04   by deleting them and re-adding them

00:27:05   in the order that you want.

00:27:06   That boggles my mind.

00:27:07   'Cause it shows that some people are just annoyed

00:27:09   by the fact that they can't reorder them

00:27:10   in the contacts app.

00:27:11   And it's actually, if someone has four email addresses,

00:27:14   deleting them all and re-adding them all is tedious.

00:27:16   So try reorder it, I guess.

00:27:19   - Yay. - Exclamation point,

00:27:22   reorder it.

00:27:24   - Tell me about the default addresses

00:27:26   in messages, please, Jon.

00:27:27   - Rob Woodring gets the brass ring

00:27:30   by giving me the actual solution to my problem.

00:27:32   So remember this all started with me

00:27:33   talking about multiple addresses and everything.

00:27:35   It's like every time I try to share something

00:27:36   via messages with my son,

00:27:38   if he's not one of the little recently

00:27:40   sent message bubble things

00:27:42   and I have to hit the actual messages app icon

00:27:44   and then I have to type his name, A-L,

00:27:46   and let the auto-complete fill it out,

00:27:48   it would always auto-complete to his contact,

00:27:50   but underneath his contact,

00:27:51   he would have his phone number,

00:27:52   and I wanted it to send to his Apple ID

00:27:55   and not his phone number for reasons

00:27:56   we discussed on past shows.

00:27:58   I couldn't figure out how to make that happen,

00:27:59   People had a lot of different ideas.

00:28:01   Last week, the one that I heard from a lot of people

00:28:03   was just delete the whole message thread and restart it

00:28:05   because whatever you use to start that message thread

00:28:08   with the person, forever, when you auto-complete

00:28:11   in Messages, it will auto-complete to that

00:28:13   because it's basically saying, hey, do you want to put this

00:28:15   in the existing conversation I have?

00:28:16   And the existing conversation that I have in Messages

00:28:19   was started seven years ago to a phone number,

00:28:23   not to an Apple ID.

00:28:24   Well, here's the actual solution.

00:28:26   Rob says, you can change what you are messaging

00:28:29   without losing your previous message history.

00:28:30   Go to an existing message thread,

00:28:32   tap the name of the person at the top,

00:28:34   then tap info, then tap and hold the messages bubble icon

00:28:37   and select an alternate email or phone number.

00:28:40   This has worked for me to switch between phone number

00:28:41   and email and back to a different phone number later

00:28:43   when my dad switched to an Android phone.

00:28:45   The message thread was preserved, pictures and all.

00:28:47   I tried this and it worked.

00:28:49   This is the solution.

00:28:50   And it's very close to the thing we talked about before

00:28:52   where you go to the contact and hold like long press

00:28:54   on the little message bubble and pick,

00:28:56   but that doesn't do it.

00:28:57   That doesn't change the thread.

00:28:58   You have to go to the messages thread,

00:29:00   then do the thing at the top and long press or whatever.

00:29:03   And from now on, whenever I type my son's name,

00:29:05   it auto-completes and shows the Apple ID.

00:29:07   And I was glad I didn't delete the message thread before,

00:29:09   because now I have all my messages preserved

00:29:11   and now I know how to fix this.

00:29:12   So it only took, but a month of talking about it

00:29:15   on a podcast with dozens of people sending solutions,

00:29:17   including people at Apple,

00:29:18   Rob Woodring found the real solution.

00:29:21   - Wait, I'm sorry.

00:29:21   Can you walk me through this?

00:29:23   'Cause I don't think I see where this is, so.

00:29:25   - Find a message thread with somebody in messages

00:29:27   that you want to change this for.

00:29:28   - Right, okay, so I'm just choosing my dad arbitrarily

00:29:30   'cause we exchanged text like right before the show.

00:29:33   So I tapped him and I see--

00:29:35   - Tap his name at the top, tap the info thing on the right.

00:29:37   - Oh, that was the piece I missed, I'm sorry.

00:29:39   Okay, so you have to tap the info thing, okay.

00:29:42   - And then long press on message,

00:29:44   and now you see the list and then pick whichever one.

00:29:47   - I got, okay, it was the info piece that I missed.

00:29:49   I'm sorry, I'm with you now.

00:29:50   Oh, that is a very good tip.

00:29:52   I knew that there was some mechanism by which to do this,

00:29:55   But I certainly did not know the exact incantation.

00:29:59   So like you said, Rob Woodring gets the gold star for today.

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00:32:00   a website or domain. Thank you so much to Squarespace for sponsoring our show.

00:32:07   We had a little bit of feedback with regard to unlocking automotive features. A couple

00:32:12   of things that I was not familiar with or aware of. BlameToups wrote in, "It's not exactly

00:32:16   what John meant when he said it's not like they're going to put a V8 when you buy a V6,

00:32:21   but my Jaguar F-Type is pretty close. The V6 uses the same engine block as the V8, just

00:32:25   with the last two cylinders closed off. This allows for the same mounting points and supercharger

00:32:29   to be used for both engines, at the cost of hauling around an extra 50 pounds of unused

00:32:33   weight with the V6. The extra material cost of the unused bit of the V8 block is offset

00:32:37   by only having to engineer and produce one version of the rest of the engine bay. I find

00:32:41   this utterly fascinating. This is like a cheaper version of what was it Aston Martin or not

00:32:47   exceeded on us Martin Alfa Romeo took the Ferrari motor and like lopped off two cylinders

00:32:51   and called it a day but they full-on cut them off in this case it would be like oh we just

00:32:56   aren't going to include a couple aren't going to use a couple of them which is fascinating

00:33:01   it's like cylinder binning it's like the way Jeep are disabled on the on the m2 it's a

00:33:06   very Jaguar move though because it always for the past I don't know several decades

00:33:10   it's always seemed like Jaguar is just kind of like,

00:33:13   even though they're supposed to be a luxury brand,

00:33:15   they just always kind of got like not great technology,

00:33:19   a lot of hand-me-downs, maybe some Ford parts bin stuff

00:33:22   back in the day, like you don't deserve that.

00:33:25   The things they do with these supposed expensive cars

00:33:27   to save weight and you're gonna leave two unused cylinders

00:33:31   in the block, only an extra 50 pounds, that's not good.

00:33:36   You don't want this.

00:33:37   I wouldn't talk about this and say,

00:33:39   "Oh yeah, sure it's great."

00:33:40   'Cause, ugh, no.

00:33:41   It's all the weight of a V8, but the power of a V6.

00:33:44   No thanks. (laughs)

00:33:48   - Oh man, it's so fascinating to me

00:33:50   that this is a thing, though.

00:33:51   I just thought that was really cool.

00:33:52   And then Josh Rappaport writes,

00:33:55   "Tesla offers something called acceleration boost

00:33:57   "on the Model 3 and Y long range.

00:33:59   "On the 3, it also unlocks a track mode,

00:34:01   "and supposedly that functionality

00:34:02   "is coming to the Y as well.

00:34:04   "It's a $2,000 US in-app purchase."

00:34:07   I'm not sure it's really an in-app purchase

00:34:08   if it's in your car, but so be it, I get your point.

00:34:10   - Do they pay Apple 30%?

00:34:11   (laughing)

00:34:13   - That decreases the zero to 60 time by about half a second.

00:34:16   Looks like these IAPs are unlocked on the car

00:34:19   for feature owners as well.

00:34:20   Also rumor has it that at their introduction,

00:34:22   the long range and performance variants of the cars

00:34:24   had the same motor and drivetrain,

00:34:26   though it seems like they may have moved

00:34:28   to more of a binning or slightly differentiated

00:34:30   set of components in the more recent times.

00:34:32   - Tesla's always sold various things

00:34:34   that basically you're paying to abuse the internals

00:34:37   of your car more, like the acceleration motor or whatever.

00:34:41   Like they lock it out as a premium feature,

00:34:42   but those type of things like,

00:34:44   oh, get that extra half second,

00:34:45   is stressing the internals and the circuitry

00:34:49   and the battery of your car a little bit more

00:34:51   to get that extra power.

00:34:52   And for that privilege, you pay them $2,000.

00:34:54   It's like, maybe just don't worry

00:34:56   about the extra half second.

00:34:57   - Yeah, and then finally, Sean Harding writes,

00:35:00   "On the BMW subscriptions, what happens in seven years

00:35:02   "when the API gets deprecated

00:35:03   "and your car can't verify the subscription status anymore?

00:35:07   "My Audi long ago stopped getting software updates,

00:35:09   "but the heated seats still work perfectly."

00:35:13   Well put, Sean, well put.

00:35:14   - That is a very good question, 'cause like, you know,

00:35:16   I was just mentioning a few minutes ago

00:35:18   how all those old iPad games

00:35:21   from that first generation of iPad stuff,

00:35:23   through various digital unfortunate-ness,

00:35:27   you really can't play those anymore.

00:35:28   Like, unless you happen to have an old iPad

00:35:30   that happens to have them already installed on it,

00:35:33   there's really no way for you to get those.

00:35:34   I ran into this problem a couple years ago,

00:35:38   last year, whenever it was, I booted up my old iPhone.

00:35:41   And I believe I talked about it on the show,

00:35:43   like my very first gen iPhone.

00:35:44   I just tried to figure out like, okay,

00:35:46   what can I do with this?

00:35:47   What can it still do?

00:35:49   And of course, as you can imagine,

00:35:50   you know, the original iPhone can't run any recent software.

00:35:53   I think the latest it can run was like iOS 3.1, I think.

00:35:57   But at any rate, it couldn't do anything really

00:36:00   because all of the SSL certificates on everything

00:36:03   that it was capable of using had expired

00:36:06   or had been upgraded to higher levels of encryption

00:36:09   that it can't support.

00:36:10   And so now that we're in this era of everything is encrypted,

00:36:14   everything is secure, everything is signed,

00:36:17   old software on old platforms almost can't run.

00:36:22   Like there's very few cases in which old enough software

00:36:24   actually runs because something expires somewhere

00:36:28   along the way and we are so connected with services

00:36:31   in the modern world that if your old hardware

00:36:34   can't connect to a web service anymore,

00:36:35   a lot of times it doesn't work or can't work.

00:36:37   And that's something worth thinking about

00:36:39   with something that has as long of a lifespan as a car.

00:36:42   For some of these BMWs,

00:36:45   unless you have Casey's luck with BMWs,

00:36:47   they're probably gonna last at least 10 years

00:36:49   of active service on the road.

00:36:51   And how many times does a 10-year-old computer

00:36:55   actually have good luck accessing its services?

00:37:01   I think it's going to be a problem that we're

00:37:03   going to have to deal with.

00:37:04   I wonder if they actually are doing online verification

00:37:07   or are just flipping a switch internally,

00:37:08   like this is the type of thing where

00:37:09   if they try to prevent people from hacking it and do

00:37:13   all these things, that's when you do, oh,

00:37:14   we have to have online checks and we have to have all this.

00:37:16   And that'll sort of mess you up.

00:37:17   But if they're smarter about it, let us be like,

00:37:19   ah, it's a software lockout.

00:37:21   And when we unlock it, it unlocks locally.

00:37:23   And we never recheck online to see if you have it unlocked

00:37:26   and we just take the hit or whatever.

00:37:27   I mean, this is another situation,

00:37:29   like any software where it really depends on the company

00:37:33   that you're buying from.

00:37:34   To give an example, when a good software company

00:37:37   stops developing an application, what they normally do

00:37:40   is say, we're not gonna make this app anymore.

00:37:42   It doesn't make us any money, its time has passed

00:37:44   or whatever, but on our way out the door, here it is.

00:37:48   If anyone wants it, here's a version where you don't

00:37:51   have to register, it's free, you know, you can have,

00:37:53   it's, you know, we're not gonna sell it anymore.

00:37:55   Anyone who paid for it in the past six months

00:37:56   will give you a refund and forevermore,

00:37:59   It's unsupported, but you can download it from our website.

00:38:02   And so the car version of that would be,

00:38:05   we're deprecating the API that we used to do online checks

00:38:07   for the heated seats, but it's unlocked for everybody now.

00:38:10   Like we send one last thing out that said,

00:38:11   "Hey, all you cars out there that are checking

00:38:14   "this API endpoint for heated seats."

00:38:16   We built the system such that when we shut this endpoint

00:38:19   down, the way they'll fail is saying,

00:38:22   we'll send them one last message that said,

00:38:23   "It's unlocked for everybody,

00:38:24   "and don't bother checking again."

00:38:26   That would be the good thing to do,

00:38:27   that a good car company would do.

00:38:29   The example I had in mind with a good software company

00:38:31   was Panic, and the example I had with a good car company

00:38:33   in mind was Nobody, 'cause they're all bad.

00:38:35   (laughing)

00:38:36   - I mean, really, the correct good thing to do would be,

00:38:39   hey, this feature that's so cheap that you can actually

00:38:42   ship it for everyone and just selectively disable it

00:38:45   in software, how about just make that a stock feature

00:38:48   of the car, because these aren't cheap cars.

00:38:51   It's like, this is already a premium car.

00:38:53   You know what, maybe make this just a stock feature,

00:38:56   if it's that cheap for you.

00:38:57   - You know, the Unity CEO would say,

00:38:59   "You're an effing idiot."

00:39:00   (laughing)

00:39:01   You're not thinking about monetization

00:39:03   when you're making these seats.

00:39:04   - 'Cause there's no way to monetize a car

00:39:06   besides in-app purchases and subscriptions, right?

00:39:08   - No, there's no service model for cars.

00:39:10   (laughing)

00:39:12   Car services?

00:39:13   Unheard of.

00:39:14   - Yeah, right.

00:39:15   - Have we talked about this?

00:39:16   Maybe, we might have talked about this

00:39:17   and I don't remember,

00:39:18   but if Apple is obsessed with services

00:39:21   and Apple is making a car, if that's true,

00:39:24   what are the services for the Apple car?

00:39:26   Like what is that going to look like?

00:39:28   - All those wear items, same as everybody.

00:39:30   - No, I mean like the in-app purchase sort of things,

00:39:32   or like the subscription sort of thing.

00:39:33   - Yeah, can you imagine Apple using someone else's tires

00:39:35   and brake pads, no way, it's gonna be all custom stuff.

00:39:39   - No, that's not how the controversy works,

00:39:40   and that's why Apple hasn't made a car yet maybe.

00:39:43   - Can you imagine, just think about stuff like that,

00:39:46   all the parts on a car that have someone else's brand name

00:39:49   on them, Apple would not stand for any of that.

00:39:51   Like you know, they're not gonna have tires

00:39:54   that say Goodyear on the side.

00:39:55   they're gonna, whoever makes their tires for them,

00:39:58   they're gonna make them give them brandless tires.

00:40:01   (laughs)

00:40:01   - I don't know, again, I don't think that's,

00:40:03   I don't think it's really possible to make a car that way

00:40:05   unless you're willing to sink way more of Apple's money

00:40:07   than they thus far have been willing to sink to this

00:40:09   and spend even more time.

00:40:10   Although that's a funny thing. - Oh, they will.

00:40:11   - Like on, you know, more car rebuilding channel things.

00:40:13   Sorry, so you've got OEM parts,

00:40:15   sorry, I'm watching all about rebuilding BMWs,

00:40:17   and you have whatever company that actually made

00:40:19   this plastic doohickey, you know,

00:40:22   BMW doesn't make it, right?

00:40:24   And if you buy it from the BMW dealer,

00:40:26   of course it costs 10 times as much or whatever,

00:40:28   but you can get that same part from the manufacturer

00:40:31   that makes it for BMW.

00:40:32   But when you buy it from the manufacturer,

00:40:35   the part that they make has BMW stamped on it, right?

00:40:39   BMW didn't make it, this other company made it,

00:40:41   but it's got BMW.

00:40:42   But when you buy it from the manufacturer,

00:40:43   they have to file off the BMW.

00:40:46   So they make it with BMW stamped on it,

00:40:48   but they're not allowed to sell it with BMW stamped on it.

00:40:50   So they literally take a finished part

00:40:53   and modify it by scrubbing or filing or melting off

00:40:56   the BMW logo and you get the two parts.

00:40:58   Here's genuine, here's the copy.

00:41:00   And you know, as opposed to adding it afterwards.

00:41:02   So yeah, the car industry is weird.

00:41:03   And I really don't think Apple's gonna have tires

00:41:05   that have Apples on the side,

00:41:07   and don't say Goodyear or Michelin.

00:41:09   But you know, I mean Apple hasn't made a car yet,

00:41:11   so we'll see, but it's just,

00:41:12   that's just not the way the car industry works.

00:41:14   And if you're gonna say,

00:41:15   we're gonna do everything ourself.

00:41:15   And like, look inside Apple's laptops.

00:41:17   The chips say like, you know,

00:41:18   the memory chips say Micron and stuff.

00:41:20   Like they don't say Apple on all of them.

00:41:22   - Yeah, but the customer doesn't see those.

00:41:24   Like, you see the tires on your car,

00:41:26   and you see if they have a brand name on them.

00:41:28   There is no way, mark my words,

00:41:31   people can quote this later,

00:41:33   in 10 years when Apple actually ships the car,

00:41:35   there is no way Apple's gonna launch a car

00:41:38   where the tires have someone else's name

00:41:40   printed on the outside.

00:41:42   - Apple's gonna have to be able to tire manufacturer,

00:41:44   'cause I'm not sure any tire manufacturer's

00:41:46   not gonna have their name on that tire.

00:41:47   - No, they would just, I'm sure they would make a deal,

00:41:49   they would custom, you know, order it from whoever would,

00:41:51   whoever would say yes first, and it would take them a while.

00:41:54   But I mean, honestly, maybe this is why.

00:41:55   - $2 million hypercars have Michelin, you know.

00:41:59   - 'Cause they don't care.

00:42:00   - A good year on the side of them.

00:42:01   They care.

00:42:02   - I mean, look, before the iPhone,

00:42:04   $600 smartphones had Verizon logos on the back of them.

00:42:07   This is one of those things where like Apple,

00:42:09   Apple's gonna go in there with just the most stubborn

00:42:12   position in the world, and eventually,

00:42:16   somebody will do it for them for the right price.

00:42:19   - Some of the desperate singular,

00:42:20   I mean, Apple had the word Verizon on its phones

00:42:22   back before the notch when they could fit it.

00:42:25   - Wait, oh, in the status bar a little bit.

00:42:27   No, but I'm saying like on the phone.

00:42:29   - I understand, I'm just saying that brand names

00:42:31   have been on iPhones.

00:42:33   I guess it's on the screen,

00:42:34   but they could have just put an Apple over it.

00:42:35   - Verizon is still on the screen.

00:42:37   - Is it?

00:42:38   - Yeah, on the lock screen anyway.

00:42:39   - Yeah, I guess it is, it's still there.

00:42:40   I was wondering if there was room at the notch.

00:42:42   - On the lock screen, it's not on the,

00:42:43   you know, once it's unlocked,

00:42:44   but it is on the lock screen.

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00:44:47   (upbeat music)

00:44:50   - Let's talk about something that is truly important

00:44:53   because it has been a long time coming.

00:44:56   I feel like, you know, on the show,

00:44:59   Adam pre-existed the show, but on this show,

00:45:03   Declan was born, Mikayla was born,

00:45:06   your Mac Pro, your current Mac Pro was born,

00:45:10   but perhaps more important than anything else,

00:45:13   you've gotten a new television.

00:45:15   There's a new birth in the ATP family,

00:45:18   and it is John's television.

00:45:19   - I did get a new television.

00:45:20   I think I had the stats on the last rectus.

00:45:23   I think it's been like eight years-ish, something like that.

00:45:27   - Well, then we might've been there for the last one.

00:45:29   It depends on when it was, 'cause we--

00:45:30   - It was 2013, yeah.

00:45:32   - Well, when in 2013, 'cause it was like March-ish.

00:45:35   - December-ish, maybe December.

00:45:37   - Okay, so then we were here for it.

00:45:39   All right, so I apologize.

00:45:40   "All right, I don't care, let's move on."

00:45:41   - But that was just, that was where I panic bought

00:45:43   the last great plasma.

00:45:45   I had recently, quote unquote, recently bought a plasma

00:45:47   a couple years before, and I was like,

00:45:49   "Oh, they're gonna not make plasmas anymore.

00:45:50   "I better get the best one right now."

00:45:52   And like, I get the last best Panasonic plasma,

00:45:54   and then they stopped making them.

00:45:56   - Oh, that's right, yeah, I think we were around

00:45:57   for this one, all right, well, nevermind,

00:45:59   I'll take it all back.

00:45:59   - Anyway, it's been a long time.

00:46:01   So I had sort of, I'd been working on this,

00:46:04   buying, I talked about this in past shows,

00:46:06   on some of my podcasts, buying the parts,

00:46:08   because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to get them.

00:46:10   I was afraid that if I waited until everything was ready to come, then I'd be like, "All

00:46:14   right, let me order everything that I exhaustively researched for the past eight years."

00:46:18   And they'd be like, "Oh, sorry, not in stock," or whatever.

00:46:19   So as soon as I decided what I was getting, I just started buying stuff.

00:46:22   So for literally months, I've had a brand new receiver and a Blu-ray player that we

00:46:26   talked about on a past show that I did some surgery on.

00:46:29   Sitting in my house, I bought the stand for the TV because I can't use the one that it

00:46:32   comes with because of my weird house situation.

00:46:35   I half assembled and stuck in a closet gathering dust all waiting for the TV to come.

00:46:41   While this was happening, like the day before the TV was supposed to be delivered, which

00:46:44   was like delivered by this special courier or whatever, I bought it from Sony.com directly

00:46:48   because it was the only place you could order it.

00:46:50   I don't know if it's available anyplace else.

00:46:51   I'm sure it will be eventually, but I bought it like within 60 seconds of it becoming available

00:46:57   on Sony.com.

00:46:59   I was not announced.

00:47:01   Thank you to all the people on Twitter who told me, "Hey, it's live on Sony," because

00:47:05   There was no announced date or time that I was aware of, but anyway, I got my order in,

00:47:09   and then they had it delivered to this courier who then had to call me and arrange for a

00:47:12   time for delivery, which was convenient, because I was out of town when they wanted to deliver

00:47:16   it and I said, "Can you wait until I get back in time?"

00:47:18   And they said, "Fine."

00:47:19   But anyway, while I was waiting for the TV to come, I could do some stuff.

00:47:22   I can take my old TV off, take everything out, because everything has to go.

00:47:27   The only thing that I didn't actually remove from the entertainment center was my T-Vobe,

00:47:30   was that staying, but it did move, it's a clean under it or whatever.

00:47:34   the old receiver, boxed it up, put it away, unhooked all the game consoles, took all the

00:47:39   other junk off of there, got it all cleaned out, and then I put in the new receiver and

00:47:44   the new Blu-ray player.

00:47:45   And the receiver is a pain because I connect all the speaker wires and it's just a logistical

00:47:49   nightmare but anyway I plugged it all in, put everything back that I could, put the

00:47:53   Blu-ray player back where the Playstation 3 was because that used to be my Blu-ray player,

00:47:56   I can have my center channel speaker actually centered on my TV now which is nice because

00:48:00   it didn't fit on top of the George Foreman grill that was the ps3. I had a ps3 slim but still it's

00:48:06   rounded on top so you couldn't put a speaker. It's all relative. Yeah you couldn't put a speaker on

00:48:10   top of it because it would just skitter off. So anyway I was happy with that setup and then I put

00:48:15   the old tv back temporarily just so I could have a tv to see the screen because what I was going to

00:48:19   do is set up my surround thing. If you haven't set up a receiver in recent years the way most of them

00:48:24   work is you put your receiver in you hook up all your speakers and everything and then they mostly

00:48:29   have either a thing that you do with an on-screen menu or in modern days a thing you can do with

00:48:34   like an app on your phone or something where they give you, you might be confused when you see this

00:48:38   in the box, a very very very long thin cord with a little like disc or puck or knob at the end of it

00:48:44   and that's a microphone and what they want you to do is run whatever their software is, put that

00:48:49   little microphone basically where your head would be as you sit on the couch and it will play

00:48:54   through all the speakers in your room and it will adjust the volume and phase and all the other

00:48:58   stuff of the speaker so that it sounds good in that seating position. There's lots of

00:49:02   different software that does this. Even my old receiver, which was years and years ago,

00:49:04   had a system for doing this.

00:49:06   Wait, what about the people who sit on the other parts of the couch?

00:49:08   Well, so, the fancier software says, "We don't just measure one position, we can..."

00:49:12   It has like a 3D model of the room and it says, "Put it in..." Like, if you can imagine

00:49:16   like the volume of the room with various spots in it, the software I was using had up to

00:49:21   17 positions that you could measure and it would try to sort of average it together and

00:49:26   and try to make it sound okay in most of the positions

00:49:28   with no bad things.

00:49:31   This is important to me because my room is weirdly shaped,

00:49:34   my speakers are weirdly placed.

00:49:36   This is not, like every time you see one of these things

00:49:37   on TV, it's like I live in a rectangular room

00:49:39   and my television is directly in front of me

00:49:41   and the couch is right in front of the TV

00:49:42   and my surround speakers are exactly at the corner.

00:49:45   Like I don't know who lives like that.

00:49:46   Maybe you build like a dedicated home theater room,

00:49:49   but it's definitely not my room.

00:49:50   My room is weird shaped, my TV is in the corner,

00:49:53   nothing is at right angles to anything,

00:49:55   Nothing is at the height you expect as, you know,

00:49:57   so I have to do this sound adjustment thing.

00:50:00   The receiver I bought supports

00:50:02   two different sound adjustment things.

00:50:03   One that's like the easier one that's older,

00:50:07   older and easier and built in.

00:50:08   I forget what the name of it's called.

00:50:09   It has some acronym MCCR, whatever, something like that.

00:50:13   And then the other one, which is the fancy one

00:50:14   that all the reviews, if you look on YouTube say,

00:50:16   oh, this is the best, what are they called?

00:50:18   Room compensation.

00:50:19   It's the best room compensation feature.

00:50:21   It's called Dirac Live, D-I-R-A-C space live.

00:50:25   I think you can do it on your phone.

00:50:27   I tried to do it on the phone

00:50:28   and it seemed to be wanting me to download a Mac app,

00:50:30   so I did, I was more comfortable with that anyway.

00:50:32   And you run the Mac app,

00:50:33   and I was using my tripod for my camera,

00:50:35   'cause the little microphone

00:50:37   screws into the little tripod top,

00:50:39   and it tells you where to put it around the room

00:50:41   with the tripod.

00:50:42   You know, put it in this seating position,

00:50:42   that position in front of the couch, behind the couch,

00:50:44   high, low, 17 different positions.

00:50:47   - This sounds awful. (laughs)

00:50:49   - You also do volume adjustment.

00:50:51   It's kind of fun because the app takes you through kind of like a wizard and it says,

00:50:54   "First, we're going to test all your speakers to make sure this is supposed to be left front.

00:50:57   This is the right thing to make sure you're going to be wired correctly."

00:51:00   And then it does volume adjustment and it plays white noise through each of the speakers.

00:51:03   It reminded me when I had an infant at home.

00:51:04   It's just white noise through the house.

00:51:06   And then when it does the sound testing, it's like, "Don't make any noise.

00:51:09   If a dog barks or a kid talks or something falls down, it will invalidate the test and

00:51:13   you have to adjust the microphone gain."

00:51:15   Anyway, it's not a fun thing to do.

00:51:17   None of this sounds fun.

00:51:19   It makes weird noises, because it goes like, whoop.

00:51:23   It makes various frequency noises and echolocation things

00:51:26   and low and high volume.

00:51:28   And those high frequency noises can hurt.

00:51:30   Yeah, they have a whole thing of like, be careful.

00:51:31   Start with the volume low and bring it up.

00:51:33   But you have to have a certain minimum volume.

00:51:34   If the volume's too low, we'll complain

00:51:36   and say, but this test didn't work,

00:51:37   because your volume's too low.

00:51:39   Turn the volume up.

00:51:40   So I spent a while doing that.

00:51:41   Again, this is with the old TV, but the new receiver,

00:51:44   because the receiver and the speakers aren't going to change

00:51:46   and the TV isn't really involved in this process at all,

00:51:48   except showing me the onscreen menus

00:51:50   to set things up basically.

00:51:51   And then I'm sitting there with the Mac laptop,

00:51:52   which was pretty neat.

00:51:53   It was like wirelessly controlling everything

00:51:55   through wifi, 'cause the receiver's on wifi, of course,

00:51:57   in this modern era.

00:51:58   The app, when they say like, you know,

00:52:01   the simpler one is built in,

00:52:03   and this is the more complicated one,

00:52:04   I should have just used the simpler one.

00:52:06   This is the more complicated one,

00:52:07   was really complicated and really time consuming,

00:52:09   and I'm trying to tell everyone in my house,

00:52:11   everyone has to be quiet.

00:52:12   My dog was at least in my problem.

00:52:14   My kids were like, I'm just gonna walk up and down stairs,

00:52:16   and you know, because if you move anywhere in my house,

00:52:17   it makes noise. My house makes noise if you move, right?

00:52:19   It's an old creaky house.

00:52:21   Every door clanks, every floorboard squeaks.

00:52:25   So it was a little bit onerous and didn't particularly enjoy

00:52:27   it, but it's really important because like I said,

00:52:29   my room was weird.

00:52:30   So when the delivery finally came, I'm like,

00:52:32   oh, this fancy delivery service was expensive too.

00:52:34   Yeah, they probably don't want to send it to FedEx or,

00:52:36   you know, UPS.

00:52:37   They want to send their own dedicated thing.

00:52:39   So it's like, you know, a courier from the airport.

00:52:41   We're going to call someone up and they're going to arrange

00:52:43   for a time. I did all that.

00:52:45   I double checked because they send all these automated emails

00:52:48   like your delivery has been delayed.

00:52:50   'Cause I was like, is that because I delayed it?

00:52:52   Turns out, yeah, it was because I did.

00:52:53   So I called back up and said,

00:52:55   I'm getting a delivery today.

00:52:56   And they said, yeah, you are.

00:52:56   Anyway, who comes to my house?

00:52:58   It's a van with one guy.

00:53:01   - Oh no.

00:53:02   - One guy?

00:53:03   You send one guy with a 65 inch television?

00:53:06   He's got a little cart with wheels on it,

00:53:08   but you know, I went out there and helped him

00:53:10   because I'm like, look, whatever.

00:53:12   I don't know what Sony pays for this delivery,

00:53:14   but this thing should be carried by two people.

00:53:16   The box had like, you know,

00:53:18   your typical sort of something has punched through this box

00:53:21   and made a C-shaped hole.

00:53:22   So there's a little flap dented in.

00:53:24   - Oh! - Like, it was like,

00:53:25   how far did that go in, right?

00:53:27   You know, and I'm like pressing out of it or whatever.

00:53:29   Luckily that was the backside of the TV

00:53:31   and it didn't go in very far, but it did.

00:53:33   I took pictures of it just in case.

00:53:35   And interestingly, since I had just boxed up my old TV,

00:53:37   yes, of course I had the original box to mail TV.

00:53:39   Since I had just boxed up my old TV.

00:53:41   - Those are not small.

00:53:43   - Nope. - No, it's not small.

00:53:45   It was a very big box.

00:53:47   That was a 55 inch plasma,

00:53:49   and that 55 inch plasma weighs more than this TV,

00:53:52   and the box is substantially larger.

00:53:54   I was surprised when I saw this box.

00:53:55   I know OLEDs are way less than plasmas,

00:53:58   plasmas are just big heavy things.

00:54:00   This plasma had fans in the back of it,

00:54:01   it had big glass, big bezels around it.

00:54:04   The new box was smaller.

00:54:05   In all dimensions, I think it was smaller.

00:54:06   It just had less stuff in it.

00:54:08   I was like, "Oh, maybe you should put more padding

00:54:09   "in this thing."

00:54:10   Anyway, the way my old box works,

00:54:13   things were so much better back in the old days

00:54:15   when Panasonic was still selling things here.

00:54:18   It's a very large box and you read the instructions

00:54:21   of how you're supposed to get your TV out of it.

00:54:23   It's basically like there's a base

00:54:26   where the TV is stuck in a bunch of styrofoam,

00:54:28   you know, like vertically,

00:54:29   and then the top of the box comes off.

00:54:33   The top of the box goes onto that base

00:54:35   and touches the ground,

00:54:36   and the only thing that's holding that together

00:54:39   are four holes that are through both the sort of top

00:54:43   and the base and these little plastic sort of grommets

00:54:46   that go through both of them and snap in.

00:54:49   That's literally, when you're picking that box up

00:54:51   by like the little handles on the side,

00:54:52   you are picking up the cover, the top of the box,

00:54:56   and that in turn is pulling on those grommets

00:54:58   and it's picking up the bottom part of the box.

00:54:59   I was like, "Oh, that always seems,

00:55:01   "for like a hundred something pound box

00:55:03   "with the base and everything in there,

00:55:03   "that seems unsafe or whatever."

00:55:05   So the Sony comes, we bring it into the house,

00:55:08   Luckily the guy wasn't some weird setup service thing.

00:55:10   They were just like, all right, I'm done.

00:55:12   I brought it into your house.

00:55:12   I'm like, good, anyway.

00:55:14   - As if you would let them set it up.

00:55:15   - Right, no, but the Plasma people,

00:55:17   we have to open it up and make sure it works.

00:55:18   Otherwise we won't, 'cause if you blame us for a delivery,

00:55:21   we have to confirm that it works or whatever.

00:55:23   And I was like, I don't want it.

00:55:24   But this guy didn't have to do that.

00:55:26   So I'm like, how do you open this one up?

00:55:28   So I look at the little instructions and it says,

00:55:29   oh, the top lifts right off.

00:55:31   This is gonna, someone from Sony will explain to me

00:55:34   how this works, but I was like, okay, well,

00:55:36   I open up the top of the box and I take some styrofoam out

00:55:39   and then I see the piece of paper that says,

00:55:41   "Oh, the top lifts off."

00:55:42   I take the styrofoam out and I can see the box

00:55:44   and so I saw, oh, the hole was in the back of the box

00:55:46   and it didn't hit the TV, so that's good.

00:55:47   I was relieved about that.

00:55:49   And then it said just the top of the box lifts off.

00:55:51   And I lift the top of the box off

00:55:53   and I'm left with the base with styrofoam

00:55:54   with the TV sticking out of it.

00:55:55   And I continue to just take the TV out of the styrofoam

00:55:59   and put it down on the ground

00:56:00   'cause I was gonna have to attach the stand to the back

00:56:02   and all that stuff.

00:56:03   Only later did it occur to me,

00:56:04   "Hey, wait a second.

00:56:05   what was holding the top of the box onto the bottom of the box?

00:56:11   i do not have that answer right now because i can tell you when i

00:56:14   when i reassembled the box there is no visible connection i didn't cut any tape

00:56:20   i didn't remove any grommets and if you put the box back together and

00:56:25   put your hands in the handles inside and pick it up it just lifts the top back up

00:56:27   again the bottom just stays behind and i know

00:56:29   this because the bottom like the stand that it comes with weighs like 50 pounds

00:56:33   It's like the heaviest thing in the box and I'm not using that so I left that in the box

00:56:37   So I put that in the box put the top back on put my hands in the handles lift it up and the top comes

00:56:42   Right off. It's very confusing. I the only thing I can think of is that the styrofoam that's in there

00:56:47   Your hands go into the handles and grab the styrofoam

00:56:50   But that styrofoam doesn't extend to the bottom. Maybe that styrofoam grips the TV somehow

00:56:55   No, no, it's confusing and it doesn't make me feel safe either. Anyway got the TV out

00:57:01   I'm gonna put the stand on the back. It's it's a third-party stand because I can't use a

00:57:04   One that came with is too wide. So it's like a pedestal stand. It's from Amazon. It's just some random brand it is the

00:57:11   Most sturdy looking least embarrassing looking one that I could find

00:57:16   Lots of them are embarrassing like Casey's visa mounts

00:57:19   That's that's ugly I would not put that on my thing

00:57:24   This is just a rectangle with a thing coming out of it and it doesn't

00:57:28   rotate or anything because I didn't want one that like did anything doesn't move tilt bend rotate

00:57:33   It's just everything is perpendicular because that's the way I want it. I never want to rotate it

00:57:37   I never want to tilt it and never want to do anything with it

00:57:39   Um, and luckily the back of the Sony is flat. I was excited by that

00:57:43   Uh, no, no weird humps nothing weird like that

00:57:46   And there was lots of different connection things to put it on with washers and everything. I attached that

00:57:50   Put it on the the stand connected the cables

00:57:54   So much fewer cables than I had before, because before I had so many things connected to it.

00:57:57   Back in my last TV, I couldn't really commit to having everything go through the receiver.

00:58:01   Every game console was directly connected to the TV and also could be connected through the receiver.

00:58:07   And I had like two HDMI things hanging out in the back of one, then I could swap them. I wanted like

00:58:11   lower latency than going through the receiver. Didn't do that this time. It's just one, well,

00:58:16   start off with two and eventually down to one connection from the receiver to the television,

00:58:20   and everything else goes to the receiver. Most of my game consoles are now decorative,

00:58:25   so I removed all their power bricks and everything. Like they used to, you don't

00:58:29   realize how big the power bricks are. If you have, just to list three of them, if you have the

00:58:34   Wii, the Wii U, and the GameCube, they all have giant external power bricks and wads of cords

00:58:40   and everything. It's just a mess back there. I was glad to get rid of that, but I still have

00:58:44   those consoles there as decorations. Let's see what else I'm going to do with this thing. The

00:58:49   The back panels are neat.

00:58:51   There is a place to route the cables,

00:58:53   and there's these little sort of snap-on.

00:58:55   Speaking of cars, if you ever know

00:58:56   what body clips look like on cars,

00:58:59   where parts of the outside of your car,

00:59:02   if you see how cars are assembled and disassembled,

00:59:04   it really makes you wonder

00:59:06   how they don't fall apart more often,

00:59:07   because lots of things are glued,

00:59:09   and lots of things are just clipped

00:59:11   with these little plastic clips,

00:59:12   like little just plastic clips

00:59:14   that probably break when you disassemble them,

00:59:16   because it's something that snaps

00:59:17   into a little slot or whatever.

00:59:18   That's how these things work.

00:59:20   And it's pretty nice 'cause it's easy to take on and off

00:59:23   and they snap into place and they hold firmly.

00:59:25   Very happy with everything about the setup process.

00:59:27   It went surprisingly smoothly.

00:59:30   It just barely fits in my house.

00:59:33   Like I did all the measurements beforehand,

00:59:34   I'm like I think it'll clear the radiator,

00:59:36   I think it won't hit the wall,

00:59:37   I think it won't have to move any furniture.

00:59:39   Thumbs up on all accounts,

00:59:40   but I cannot get a bigger television.

00:59:42   This is a good wake up call to say 65 is the limit.

00:59:45   A house cannot accommodate a larger television,

00:59:48   it will literally hit walls.

00:59:49   And I do wanna leave room for me to like worm behind it

00:59:51   to get back there and mess with stuff.

00:59:53   The remote it comes with is nice.

00:59:55   As with so many things, it embarrasses the Apple remote,

00:59:57   not because it's an amazing remote,

00:59:59   but it just shows that it's not hard to do better

01:00:01   than the Apple remote.

01:00:02   We loved it so much 'cause the old one was so bad.

01:00:04   But the Sony remote is,

01:00:06   it's got sort of like a textured plastic on the back,

01:00:08   so it's more grippy than the smooth Apple one.

01:00:10   It's still too small, but it's bigger than the Apple one,

01:00:13   both length and width.

01:00:15   It has a pleasing heft to it,

01:00:17   and the way that they used to make electronics

01:00:18   feel expensive by making them feel dense.

01:00:20   They do that with this.

01:00:21   I don't know what it's filled with,

01:00:22   probably literally like lead weights or whatever,

01:00:24   but hey, it works.

01:00:25   It's got light up buttons that only light up

01:00:27   when you pick the thing up.

01:00:28   It's got a speaker on it so you can say something

01:00:30   and it will make a beeping noise

01:00:31   so you can find the remote if you lose it.

01:00:32   Not that that would ever happen to me.

01:00:34   It's got a very clicky circular wheel on it.

01:00:38   It's not as good as a TiVo remote, but it feels expensive.

01:00:41   And it's the first of several remotes

01:00:44   that came with this setup

01:00:45   that now exist in my house and have Netflix buttons

01:00:48   and Amazon Prime buttons and whatever the hell they're,

01:00:50   branded buttons that are on the things.

01:00:52   It's just the way of the world.

01:00:53   The television itself, it's basically edge to edge screen.

01:00:57   It does have a tiny little chin, like less than an inch high

01:01:00   and on a 65 inch TV, you don't even notice that

01:01:03   and it's black.

01:01:04   In terms of condition, the only place I found blemishes

01:01:06   on the TV where there's a couple little,

01:01:08   very small scratches on the metal chin

01:01:11   that runs along the bottom.

01:01:12   So small that you have to be like inches away from it

01:01:14   to see them.

01:01:15   them when I was peeling off the little static clear plastic whatever that stuff is called

01:01:20   that they put in all appliances now and that people leave on because I don't realize it's

01:01:24   there and honestly I would not have seen this either if I hadn't been really close to the tv

01:01:27   like messing with the stand but yeah there was a little plastic thing over the front and I peeled

01:01:31   that off and a couple little nicks in the the metal chin but not anything that I would ever do

01:01:36   anything about and that's where the lights on the front of the television are they're I think maybe

01:01:42   one or two of them, both of which you can disable.

01:01:46   Woo!

01:01:47   - Oh, nice.

01:01:48   - Software features, 'cause you know,

01:01:50   I'm going through the settings and turning everything off.

01:01:52   It also comes with a camera that clips on to the back

01:01:57   and points towards you.

01:01:58   I thought that was like an optional extra,

01:02:00   but it's bundled with the TV,

01:02:01   should be for this price anyway.

01:02:02   I don't know the quality of the camera.

01:02:05   When I was attaching it, it's got magnets,

01:02:07   it's got two little magnets that magnetically,

01:02:10   it's not MagSafe, but it's got two little magnets

01:02:12   that click it into this, the thing where it connects

01:02:14   and it's got a bunch of like little pin connector-y things.

01:02:16   It's a proprietary connection, right?

01:02:18   But just, when you click it in like that,

01:02:20   it's still wobbly.

01:02:21   I think they made it flexible, so you know,

01:02:23   'cause it was stiff and you tried to like, you know,

01:02:25   move it or something, you could crack it or whatever,

01:02:27   but it's like flexible.

01:02:29   And the reason I bring this up is because I connected it

01:02:31   and the TV didn't seem to see the camera at all.

01:02:33   I just saw, I couldn't find out how can I use this camera.

01:02:37   I downloaded like a Google meeting app or something

01:02:39   to see if it would do something and it didn't work

01:02:40   and I'm like, is this camera used for anything?

01:02:43   'Cause I'd read reviews and they said,

01:02:44   oh, the TV will scold you if kids sit too close to the TV

01:02:47   if it sees them on the camera or whatever, but this wasn't,

01:02:50   I'm like, is it not connected?

01:02:52   So I kept disconnecting the camera

01:02:53   and reconnecting and disconnecting and reconnecting.

01:02:55   Eventually I found out the TV knows the camera is there

01:02:57   because there is a mechanical shutter on it,

01:02:59   you know, a plastic thing that slides in front of the camera

01:03:01   that you can keep closed if you don't want it to be on

01:03:03   and you're paranoid or whatever.

01:03:05   And when you close that,

01:03:06   a message pops up on the TV screen says,

01:03:08   your camera, whatever thing is closed,

01:03:10   it won't work until you open it.

01:03:11   It's like, aha, you know the camera's there

01:03:13   and you know that I closed it, but nothing uses it.

01:03:16   Someone sent me a picture of their same TV

01:03:18   with a feature like in the settings

01:03:20   that sees that the camera's there,

01:03:21   but mine doesn't see it yet.

01:03:22   And the manual said, you may need a software update

01:03:25   or whatever, but I've got the latest software.

01:03:27   Anyway, further news on this camera.

01:03:29   Eventually, if I can't get it to work,

01:03:30   I'm just gonna take it off and stick the little panel

01:03:32   that covers the plug in it, but I'm still willing

01:03:34   to believe that the camera might do something someday.

01:03:37   Setup process was fine, it's the first time

01:03:39   I've ever used Google TV. It's Androidy. It's fine. It's not as responsive as Apple TV.

01:03:45   It makes me appreciate Apple TV a little bit, but it's plenty responsive. You can download

01:03:48   apps, it's got all the things you would expect built in. I have yet another way to watch

01:03:51   Netflix. My Blu-ray player has a way to watch Netflix as well. Everything has a way to watch

01:03:57   Netflix. What wouldn't? I don't know if it has Apple TV built in, but I think it does.

01:04:00   I think it's also an AirPlay receiver without the Apple TV as well. I'd mostly do things

01:04:04   for the Apple TV, but just FYI, it has a smart TV OS thing that's built in there. The only

01:04:09   stumbling block I came upon when I was setting things up

01:04:12   was a lot of things, a lot of TV apps when you set them up

01:04:15   have a thing where, you know, like if you're trying

01:04:17   to sign into YouTube app or whatever, it's like,

01:04:19   just launch YouTube on your phone

01:04:21   and you'll see a little notification.

01:04:23   You can just say, let me in, right?

01:04:24   That's as opposed to the old ways and the olden days,

01:04:27   you would say, go to youtube.com/activate

01:04:29   and type in this three letter code, right?

01:04:31   Well, a lot of the apps that do that would say,

01:04:34   just make sure your phone is on the same wifi network

01:04:36   'cause your TV and you'll see a thing pop up

01:04:39   and they'll say it may take up to 30 seconds,

01:04:41   so be patient.

01:04:42   Apparently I'm not patient

01:04:43   'cause I would launch these things

01:04:44   and I would launch the app on my phone

01:04:46   and it would say wait 30 seconds

01:04:47   and I would look at it and I would look at it

01:04:49   and I realized this TV isn't on the same WiFi network

01:04:52   as my phone.

01:04:53   In fact, this TV's not on WiFi at all

01:04:55   because why would I do that?

01:04:57   Everything's connected to ethernet back there.

01:04:58   The Apple TV's on ethernet, the television,

01:05:01   the Blu-ray player, all the game consoles,

01:05:04   everything is ethernet, 'cause wires.

01:05:07   - They can be, they're better.

01:05:08   - Yeah, I have like a 10-port ethernet switch

01:05:13   by my TV entertainment center.

01:05:15   But that means it's not on Wi-Fi, so I'm like,

01:05:17   I can solve that, I'll just put it on Wi-Fi

01:05:18   for during the setup process.

01:05:20   And so I went to Wi-Fi, it found my network,

01:05:22   I just said enter your password for your network,

01:05:24   I entered the password, and it shows a little spinner

01:05:26   for a while, and this thing spins for, I guess,

01:05:29   60 seconds, and it says, couldn't find your network, sorry.

01:05:33   I tried my guest network, I tried reentering the password for both of them multiple times.

01:05:38   This TV will not connect to any of my wifi.

01:05:40   I googled for it and you googled for Sony TV can't connect to wifi, all you find is

01:05:45   like SEO spam pages that are just like, I don't know, copy pasta of random things like

01:05:50   reboot your router or whatever.

01:05:52   And then real articles from people who just can't get their wifi to work or whatever.

01:05:56   So apparently it's not a widespread problem or at least not that I know of, but I could

01:06:01   never get it connected to Wi-Fi.

01:06:03   I don't need it to be connected to Wi-Fi.

01:06:04   I don't want it connected to Wi-Fi.

01:06:06   It's on ethernet, that's fine.

01:06:08   And in practical purpose,

01:06:10   I think it probably would have eventually worked

01:06:12   'cause it is on the same network as my phone.

01:06:14   It's just not on the same Wi-Fi as my phone.

01:06:16   And I think when they say

01:06:17   make sure it's on the same Wi-Fi,

01:06:18   they just assume everyone uses Wi-Fi

01:06:21   and not wired connections.

01:06:22   But it is a kind of a sticking point.

01:06:24   It's the one thing so far that, besides the camera,

01:06:26   that it absolutely had not been able to get to work.

01:06:28   The TV just will not connect to Wi-Fi.

01:06:30   Each time it tries, it spins for like 60 seconds,

01:06:32   so it's kind of annoying to work through all that.

01:06:35   I went through all the settings.

01:06:37   Boy, there are a lot of settings.

01:06:39   (laughing)

01:06:40   And for me, you're going through, no, off, no, no, no.

01:06:44   I was disappointed to learn,

01:06:45   I don't know, I hadn't realized this,

01:06:47   but Sony is one of the holdout companies

01:06:49   that's not doing filmmaker mode in the TVs.

01:06:52   This is a thing that, I don't know,

01:06:54   entertainment industry convinced the television industry

01:06:57   to do, it's filmmaker mode, all caps.

01:06:59   It's always in all caps, probably,

01:07:00   'cause I'm branding reason or whatever.

01:07:01   - Wait, really?

01:07:02   That's like a standardized name?

01:07:03   Like mine has it, but I just figured that was just like,

01:07:05   you know, what they were calling it.

01:07:06   - No, it's like an entertainment industry group,

01:07:09   like people who make movies,

01:07:10   like the movie studios got together with the,

01:07:13   you know, the TV manufacturers and came up with this thing.

01:07:16   It is a specific trademarked thing.

01:07:19   It's kind of like, you know, Dolby Digital or whatever,

01:07:21   right, like it's not just individual things,

01:07:24   and it's always all caps, right?

01:07:26   And the idea behind filmmaker mode is a mode in television

01:07:30   where the television won't screw up the picture, basically.

01:07:33   No motion smoothing, no denoising, no over brightening,

01:07:36   no vibrance adding, no messing with the darks,

01:07:39   no changing the frame rate, no nothing.

01:07:42   Show it the way it is on the disc

01:07:45   or on the stream or whatever.

01:07:47   It's the most accurate picture mode,

01:07:49   you're not allowed to enable,

01:07:50   like that's in the standard filmmaker mode.

01:07:52   Sony, this TV does not have filmmaker mode.

01:07:56   So you have to basically make it yourself.

01:07:58   The custom setting, what they describe it as,

01:08:01   they say this is the most accurate blah, blah, blah,

01:08:03   but you still have to go through in custom mode

01:08:05   and turn off reality creation,

01:08:07   turn off CineMotion Pro blend, whatever.

01:08:11   (laughs)

01:08:12   What the hell, all these things.

01:08:13   All the Sony brand names for like, you know,

01:08:15   the denoise filtering, the sharpening,

01:08:18   like just gotta turn all that stuff off.

01:08:20   And by the way, don't forget,

01:08:22   you gotta do that for every input.

01:08:25   - Oh, no.

01:08:26   - I don't have that many inputs 'cause of the receiver,

01:08:28   but I did, my receiver confused me,

01:08:30   'cause I should've read the manual for it first.

01:08:32   It had two HDMI outs.

01:08:34   It had one called main and one called sub.

01:08:36   I'm like, why does it have two?

01:08:37   I mean, I guess you can, so you can put two TVs,

01:08:39   but only one of them, like--

01:08:41   - Is the sub for HDMI ARC for sending to a sound bar

01:08:45   or similar?

01:08:46   - No, no, I forget which one supports eARC,

01:08:50   but it's not, that's a separate thing.

01:08:52   - Oh yeah, now there is a dedicated ARK/E-ARC port,

01:08:56   but in the receiver you can say,

01:08:59   one of the settings I found was like,

01:09:00   where do you wanna do Dolby Vision?

01:09:01   Do you wanna do it main or sub?

01:09:03   I'm like, oh, I can see it.

01:09:05   It's kind of like zone two, you know, zone two for the audio.

01:09:07   I think sub is like zone two for,

01:09:09   if you wanna have literally two televisions

01:09:11   showing two different things,

01:09:12   but only one of them can do Dolby Vision.

01:09:13   So I'm like, oh, forget it.

01:09:14   I'm just not connecting anything to sub.

01:09:15   It's just main.

01:09:16   - And just for the obvious thing here,

01:09:17   it does not have to subwoofer somehow?

01:09:19   I mean, I suppose--

01:09:20   - No, it's an HDMI port.

01:09:22   there is dedicated subwoofer ports.

01:09:24   - No, it wouldn't surprise me if there are subwoofers

01:09:27   that accept HDMI for some reason or something like that.

01:09:29   I'm right there with you, Marco.

01:09:31   I'm not saying that's what it is,

01:09:33   but I had the exact same thought.

01:09:34   - Does it only send the darkest parts

01:09:36   of the picture to that port?

01:09:38   (laughing)

01:09:38   - Right.

01:09:39   Yeah, there's a crossover setting you can change there.

01:09:43   So I just have main connected.

01:09:44   I don't have anything connected to sub,

01:09:46   but then I had two HDMI ports connected to it.

01:09:48   That was a little bit confusing.

01:09:50   So I had to set the settings in both places.

01:09:52   Doing this, having a television screen, a receiver, a Blu-ray player, an Apple TV box,

01:09:57   or whatever, there's a lot of fighting for what goes on on the screen.

01:10:02   Because every one of those devices has something they want to display on the screen that relates

01:10:07   to the configuration of that device.

01:10:09   The receiver, for example, can take over the whole screen with just its UI, which looks

01:10:14   kind of like early 2000s Web 2.0, kind of like lots of gradients and artwork showing

01:10:21   things or whatever and you can configure the receiver that way right.

01:10:26   The blu-ray player has like a menu system that's like it looks it looks older than the

01:10:32   receiver it looks like a very blurry low resolution web page incredibly slow animation like slower

01:10:39   than any computer has ever been at like moving the focus ring for one thing to the other

01:10:44   so slow that you would never want to use it so yeah my blu-ray player will do like amazon

01:10:48   Prime Video and Netflix or whatever, but you would never want to do anything. I

01:10:51   think it's so slow, so horrible. And then of course the receiver also has another

01:10:57   way to put UI up on the screen and it's the way, kind of reminds me of when like

01:11:01   Mac OS X was maybe public beta or maybe the developer preview, one of the

01:11:05   screenshots I included was like a picture of a Mac desktop or the desktop

01:11:10   background or the boot screen or something like about you know Mac OS X

01:11:13   and GUI, but with a bunch of Unix text coming down

01:11:18   the screen, blacking out, like the text is light text

01:11:22   on a black background, and everywhere there's text,

01:11:24   the line of text has like a black border around it, right?

01:11:27   It's just like, it's kinda, I'm not describing it well,

01:11:31   but it's as if Unix had come and scribbled over Mac OS.

01:11:34   - Yeah, it's like when your in-flight monitor

01:11:36   on the back of the seat crashes and it starts rebooting,

01:11:38   it's Linux thing, and it starts spinning it

01:11:39   all over the screen.

01:11:40   - Right, but imagine that going over the Mac UI,

01:11:43   only blacking out the parts where the lines are.

01:11:45   So if it's a short line of text,

01:11:46   like a little short black that area or whatever,

01:11:49   that's what the receiver also has a mode

01:11:51   where it puts up like, it looks like a VCR

01:11:53   kind of on-screen display from like the late 80s, right?

01:11:57   Of like a fixed width font, very bit mappy or whatever.

01:12:00   It can put that on the screen as well

01:12:02   for a whole other set of features.

01:12:04   (laughing)

01:12:05   So everybody has a way to,

01:12:06   and the TV itself can do a bar at the bottom,

01:12:09   We could do multiple different bars at the bottom.

01:12:10   We could also do a full screen thing.

01:12:12   And of course, Apple TV does the full screen thing.

01:12:14   And there's a lot of UI going on.

01:12:15   I have not settled this down to the point

01:12:18   where I'm ready to explain to the family

01:12:21   how to use the new TV.

01:12:23   But the good thing about that is that I am now,

01:12:27   and hopefully by the time you hear this recording,

01:12:30   an HDMI CEC Unicorn.

01:12:31   'Cause now everything--

01:12:32   - Oh, nice! - Everything in this setup

01:12:34   has been replaced except for the Apple TV and the TiVo.

01:12:37   and everything works.

01:12:41   If you pick up the Apple TV remote,

01:12:43   I know if you pick up the Apple TV remote,

01:12:45   everything's turned off.

01:12:46   Pick up the Apple TV remote, hit the power button on it,

01:12:48   turns TV on, switch to the Apple TV,

01:12:51   turns the receiver on, just everything works.

01:12:53   If you turn it off, turns everything off.

01:12:55   I didn't do anything.

01:12:55   The Apple TV remote can change the volume

01:12:58   and do everything like that.

01:12:59   The TV remote can control the volume

01:13:01   and can also control the Apple TV somehow

01:13:03   with like the four-way thing.

01:13:05   Everything just knows about each other

01:13:07   and everything works together, I'm just like,

01:13:08   don't touch anything.

01:13:09   I didn't do anything to set this up.

01:13:11   This is just the way it worked.

01:13:13   The only bad thing is occasionally, if you turn stuff on,

01:13:17   sometimes the TV wants to show its UI.

01:13:19   There's a setting that says, hey, when I turn on,

01:13:20   what do you want me to do?

01:13:21   And I said, show your last input,

01:13:22   don't go to the home screen.

01:13:23   But sometimes people like, they wanna use the TiVo,

01:13:25   which is the oldest device.

01:13:27   You'll turn the TiVo on, it'll turn everything on,

01:13:29   but it'll show the Google TV menu.

01:13:31   And you have to basically dismiss

01:13:33   the full screen Google TV menu.

01:13:34   It's on the right input, but you have to dismiss

01:13:35   to Google UI to get to the TiVo UI that's underneath it.

01:13:39   Kind of confusing, still working on it.

01:13:41   The reason I mentioned the receiver on-screen display,

01:13:44   like Linux crash thing or whatever,

01:13:47   is because that's the UI that you have to go to

01:13:51   to select the configuration that you saved with Dirac Live.

01:13:56   It's not in the Web 2.0 gradient illustrations

01:14:00   of RCA connector and speakers and stuff.

01:14:03   It's not there.

01:14:04   When you use the Mac app and you save it,

01:14:06   it's like saving a game on like N64.

01:14:09   It's like save this in slot one and you have three slots.

01:14:12   So I saved my configuration to slot one.

01:14:15   Then you have to use the weird Linux crash desktop UI

01:14:18   to select it from slot one.

01:14:19   And I didn't realize, like I'm trying to watch things.

01:14:22   I'm trying to watch shows, test things out,

01:14:24   make sure everything works, get the Apple TV

01:14:27   to output Dolby Vision 4K and everything like that.

01:14:31   And it's just a battle every step of the way

01:14:33   is you're like, what menu makes this possible?

01:14:35   Like you have to go into the receiver and say,

01:14:37   oh, do you want your output to be 4K or 4K enhanced?

01:14:40   Like why does 4K not enhanced exist?

01:14:42   Like change all the outputs to enhance.

01:14:45   Oh, now it can do Dolby Vision or whatever.

01:14:47   And we actually watched a television show.

01:14:50   I watched a television show in my wife's house,

01:14:51   watched the new TV or whatever.

01:14:52   Two things, one, it was a TV show

01:14:54   that we had started on Disney+ already.

01:14:56   Like not start to start, but I have a habit

01:14:59   where I will go to the next episode

01:15:01   and get it to like one second into the next episode

01:15:03   and pause it so that when we're ready

01:15:05   to watch the next episode, I don't have to do anything.

01:15:07   It's already ready to go to the next episode, right?

01:15:10   This is my way of avoiding the screen

01:15:11   where I can never find what I was watching.

01:15:13   So we had already started to watch this episode

01:15:16   of the show on Disney Plus,

01:15:17   but we started to watch it on the old TV,

01:15:20   which was not 4K and not HDR.

01:15:23   So we watched the whole episode on the new TV,

01:15:24   and I'm like, this doesn't look like it's HDR.

01:15:26   I'm like, well, maybe the show is in HDR.

01:15:28   It also doesn't look like it's 4K.

01:15:29   well, maybe this is not a 4K show or whatever.

01:15:32   We watched the whole episode,

01:15:33   when I'm watching it, the sound is wonky too.

01:15:35   I'm like, was my old surround just not configured well?

01:15:39   Does this sound like some of the channels

01:15:41   sound louder than they should be and the mix is weird?

01:15:43   Then it started playing the next episode

01:15:45   and it was 4K in HDR, I'm like whoa.

01:15:47   So apparently, because I had started the stream,

01:15:51   it just kept streaming the thing that it had been streaming

01:15:54   with Rustin for the new TV.

01:15:55   And the second thing is I figured out,

01:15:56   oh, I haven't selected slot one.

01:15:58   the D-Rack Live configuration.

01:16:01   And so I watched that show

01:16:02   with just on the default configuration,

01:16:04   which doesn't compensate for my room's weirdness,

01:16:07   and it sounded terrible.

01:16:08   So it took a few attempts to dial things in.

01:16:12   Once I enabled the D-Rack Live configuration slot,

01:16:14   I was like, oh, everything sounds way better.

01:16:17   And there's a lot of that with the different inputs

01:16:20   and making sure things are configured

01:16:21   and making sure everything is sending it

01:16:23   in the enhanced mode and making sure everything is set

01:16:26   to choose the best quality and it just got so many menus.

01:16:30   So I think I'm on, I did round one of fixing,

01:16:34   then I slept on it, did more internet research,

01:16:37   did round two of fixing, and I guess I'll do round three,

01:16:41   I don't know, like as I watch more things,

01:16:43   but I'm getting close, I'm getting close

01:16:45   to everything working correctly,

01:16:47   but things went pretty smoothly, I have to say.

01:16:49   Like there was no, other than not being able

01:16:51   to get on the wifi, everything eventually worked.

01:16:53   Oh, one more barrier was the TiVo remote.

01:16:56   I don't know if people remember the TiVo remotes,

01:16:57   but you could make the TiVo remote control

01:17:01   the power, volume, mute, blah, blah, blah

01:17:02   for your television.

01:17:03   And the way you do that is you have to type in

01:17:05   this four digit code for your remote.

01:17:07   It's like a universal remote code.

01:17:08   It lets it know how to talk to your TV.

01:17:11   And then the TiVo menu thing, you go through there

01:17:15   and you say, what brand of TV do you have?

01:17:16   And you pick and it says, okay, well,

01:17:17   it's gonna be one of these six codes

01:17:18   or one of these 12 codes.

01:17:20   Hold down these two buttons for five seconds to load.

01:17:23   where light comes on, then type the code,

01:17:24   and then try the power button, and just keep doing that.

01:17:27   I did that for all the codes, and none of them worked.

01:17:29   And then I'm like, well, this is a brand new TV,

01:17:31   let me search online.

01:17:32   I found a bunch more codes for Sony televisions,

01:17:34   typed them all in, none of them worked.

01:17:37   And then eventually one of them turned off the TV,

01:17:39   I'm like, oh, that one worked, okay,

01:17:40   but the volume seems wonky, so I tried some more codes.

01:17:43   Like, oh, none of those work either,

01:17:44   let me go back to the one that worked,

01:17:45   and then that one wouldn't work either.

01:17:47   That's when I started having the debugger,

01:17:51   the programmer debugger thinking, and I think,

01:17:53   all right, what explains this phenomena?

01:17:55   And of course it's like, replace the batteries.

01:17:57   And sure enough,

01:17:58   it's like depending on, like if I was an inch or two,

01:18:02   you know, like how far away I was from the television,

01:18:05   replace the batteries, and now like six of the codes work.

01:18:07   And so that problem is mostly solved,

01:18:09   the volume is still wonky,

01:18:10   but mostly I just need the power button to work.

01:18:11   But yeah, everything was pretty smooth.

01:18:13   There's a lot to explore on this TV.

01:18:15   I am never going to use the Blu-rays interface

01:18:17   except to play Blu-ray discs,

01:18:19   'cause that thing is super janky.

01:18:21   I hope I never have to use the receiver interface once I get everything tuned in.

01:18:25   I did try my PlayStation 5 in it.

01:18:26   I tried to play Destiny in HDR 120 frames per second and it was pretty sweet, but not

01:18:33   sweet enough to burn in my OLED and actually not as good in PvP as my gaming monitor because

01:18:40   it helps for my old eyes to be really close and see everything in crisp pixels.

01:18:44   I'm really close to my 27-inch monitor and I'm like 10 feet away from my 65-inch TV.

01:18:49   So it looked real nice, but honestly, 120 frames per second versus 60, it doesn't affect.

01:18:56   My reflexes are too slow for that to make a difference.

01:18:59   The input, the lag difference or whatever, it's not going to save me.

01:19:03   And when you do 120, it drops it to 1080 in Destiny because the PlayStation 5 can't do

01:19:07   a 120 4K.

01:19:09   So I honestly prefer a 4K 60.

01:19:11   But anyway, the PS5 went back to the gaming monitor, but I did try that out.

01:19:14   I played Blu-rays, I played movies, I played a bunch of 4K HDR demo footage.

01:19:19   on YouTube, which was fun.

01:19:21   Oh, the other thing, I had heard about YouTube TV.

01:19:23   They're like, "Oh, hey, when you get a 4K TV,

01:19:25   "you should look at YouTube TV,"

01:19:26   which is one of those services that lets you

01:19:29   replace your cable with something that, in theory,

01:19:30   gives you all the regular channels.

01:19:32   You pay for HBO and Showtime, you get local channels,

01:19:35   and it's like a cable package, but over the internet.

01:19:37   There's a lot of those things,

01:19:38   but the YouTube TV's selling point is

01:19:40   they have 4K channels, so I pay for

01:19:43   whatever the most expensive thing Verizon sells me

01:19:45   as part of my Fios package to get all the channels,

01:19:47   Which is nice because I don't have to pay individually for HBO and Showtime, they come

01:19:50   as part of my cable package, but I still get to use the HBO Max app and the Showtime app

01:19:54   and all that other stuff.

01:19:55   So that's convenient.

01:19:57   But they're not, when you watch them on a TV, like when I watch them on my TiVo, which

01:20:01   is not 4K anyway, but like the signal that comes to my television through my cable card

01:20:05   is not 4K.

01:20:06   But if you use UTV and my fast internet connection, also from Verizon, this episode has been sponsored

01:20:11   by Verizon.

01:20:12   Is it Verizon's ultra-fast nationwide 5G ultra-wideband network?

01:20:16   not 5G thankfully it is fiber optic and it's very fast and YouTube TV has

01:20:21   channels in 4k and you know so you're gonna watch HDTV in 4k you can but not

01:20:26   through your cable company only through YouTube TV so I tried out YouTube TV but

01:20:30   it was like a free trial type thing and it seemed pretty expensive it was like

01:20:34   50 bucks for the base thing plus like you know for each one of the HBO

01:20:37   Showtime whatever another 12 whatever bucks plus a $9 like a blanket surcharge

01:20:42   for if you want 4k because that's a thing but anyway I did the free trial

01:20:45   with everything enabled, 4K blah blah blah.

01:20:47   And sure enough, you can get 4K versions of channels,

01:20:50   but their UI for like, you know, going through the guide,

01:20:53   it only goes one guide slide at a time.

01:20:57   Like, so, you know, you're on channel five,

01:20:59   not that that's the channel number, but anyway,

01:21:01   you're on channel five and you swipe down

01:21:03   or move the five way, it goes to channel six,

01:21:05   then seven, then eight,

01:21:06   like on the big guide grid that you see,

01:21:08   no one's got time to do that.

01:21:10   It's not smooth, there's no way to flick scroll it, right?

01:21:13   Just one at a time.

01:21:15   and there are so many channels.

01:21:17   At least on TiVo, you have page up, page down,

01:21:19   you go through screen falls at a time

01:21:21   when you're looking at the guide,

01:21:22   or on Apple TV, you would use the touch pad

01:21:24   and it would have momentum scrolling.

01:21:26   I'm sorry, YouTube TV, but that is literally the reason

01:21:29   I canceled that service is because I cannot imagine

01:21:33   going through this UI to find things to watch or record.

01:21:36   It does a DVR type thing as well, a server-side DVR.

01:21:40   It didn't seem to have a season pass manager either.

01:21:42   When I canceled it, they sent me this big server,

01:21:44   like why did you cancel?

01:21:45   I'm like just copy everything TiVo did

01:21:46   'cause you have no idea what you're doing.

01:21:49   - Helpful.

01:21:50   - Good 4K content, terrible UI.

01:21:53   I tried the YouTube TV app on the television itself

01:21:56   which is a Google, you know, it runs Google TV

01:21:58   and I also tried the YouTube TV app on Apple TV

01:22:00   and they were both very bad.

01:22:02   So it's not even as good as the Netflix UI

01:22:04   in terms of recommendations and everything.

01:22:05   They've got a long way to go.

01:22:07   So I was disappointed by that

01:22:08   but at least it saves me some money.

01:22:10   So anyway, I give the whole experience a big thumbs up.

01:22:13   I am much more excited and impressed by this television

01:22:15   than anyone else in my family, I can tell you that.

01:22:18   - There's the surprise.

01:22:19   - Yeah, no, it's just, they don't care.

01:22:22   I mean, I show them the footage of the honey

01:22:25   dripping onto the thing on the black background,

01:22:27   how are you not impressed by that?

01:22:28   - What? - There's no blooming,

01:22:30   it's HDR, every pixel is individually lit up.

01:22:33   It looks amazing.

01:22:34   Nobody cared, I'm like, do you understand?

01:22:37   Like, you can't, I think we need to buy

01:22:40   a second worst television to put next to it

01:22:42   and say, "See what a mess this looks like?"

01:22:44   - Oh my gosh.

01:22:46   - I'll send you guys a picture.

01:22:47   I did take a picture of my,

01:22:48   a beauty shot on my television, if I can find it.

01:22:52   I will send it to you.

01:22:53   - Now, I'm sorry, I should have asked this

01:22:55   a long, long time ago,

01:22:56   but I didn't want to ruin your whole moment.

01:22:57   What is the actual model number for this TV?

01:23:00   - It is the Sony A95K.

01:23:03   In my opinion, unless you are a hardcore gamer

01:23:06   with a modern console that you want to play at 4K,

01:23:08   120 frames per second,

01:23:10   It is the best television you can buy right now.

01:23:13   Quantum.OLED Television, Sony A95K.

01:23:17   The name just rolls off the tongue.

01:23:19   - You can buy it on Amazon starting in a couple of weeks.

01:23:21   - Really?

01:23:22   Yeah, I was wondering when it was gonna appear like--

01:23:23   - Amazon says it'll be released on August 11th.

01:23:25   - Yeah, that's nice.

01:23:26   So check out the picture.

01:23:28   You can see what you can see in this.

01:23:29   This probably won't be in the show

01:23:30   because this is a picture of my house,

01:23:31   but you can see the center channel speaker

01:23:33   is now in the center.

01:23:34   See the stand?

01:23:35   Very boring.

01:23:37   - Yeah, that's a very boring stand.

01:23:38   - Here's an important quality of the stand.

01:23:40   I can hide cables behind it.

01:23:42   - That is actually really nice.

01:23:43   - Do you remember before I had that V-shaped thing

01:23:45   where I had that, without a hole in the middle,

01:23:47   so you had to run the cables down the V?

01:23:50   This, I just have it stuck to the back of that thing.

01:23:52   Totally hidden.

01:23:53   - This actually looks pretty nice.

01:23:54   I mean, I know this is, you know,

01:23:55   right after cleanup and setup and rewiring and everything,

01:23:57   so of course this is like as nice as it's ever gonna look.

01:23:59   - No, it never changes from this.

01:24:00   This is always how it looks.

01:24:01   You can ask anyone in my family.

01:24:03   Nothing about this setup changes.

01:24:05   Once I get set along the order of the little DVD things,

01:24:07   which are also decorative, by the way,

01:24:09   - Those also never change.

01:24:10   You can see the right edge of the TV.

01:24:12   See how it's over the radiator and almost touching the wall?

01:24:15   - Yep.

01:24:15   - And on the left side, there's a big enough channel

01:24:17   for if I move those plastic bins,

01:24:20   I can squeeze myself through there,

01:24:22   putting my butt into the window, right?

01:24:24   - Like to reach behind it for the wiring?

01:24:27   - To get behind it to do all the wiring stuff.

01:24:30   - Yeah, no, you're right.

01:24:31   This is as big as you can go in that spot.

01:24:33   For sure, unless you somehow rearrange that room

01:24:36   to have the TV not in the corner.

01:24:37   but I don't, you can't put it over to the left, right?

01:24:40   Isn't there a mantle there?

01:24:41   - There's a gigantic fireplace and a mantle there.

01:24:43   - Yeah, so you can't, yeah, so I think this is it.

01:24:45   This is as big as you can go.

01:24:46   - Yeah, and that shade on the left

01:24:48   is light blocking shade, right?

01:24:49   So you don't get any light behind the thing.

01:24:50   You can see this stupid camera on the top of it.

01:24:53   I do like this stand, it's served me well.

01:24:55   It's got glass shelves, holds everything up pretty well.

01:24:59   I did micro level it, 'cause of course

01:25:01   nothing in my house is level.

01:25:03   - Micro level? - Yeah.

01:25:04   - What is micro leveling?

01:25:06   It's mostly level.

01:25:07   If you put a level on it and you look at the little bubble,

01:25:10   it's between the two lines,

01:25:11   but is it in the middle between the two lines?

01:25:13   (laughing)

01:25:15   Almost.

01:25:16   And so when I micro-leveled it, I leveled everything.

01:25:19   What I wanted to tell was, is the third party stand level?

01:25:22   'Cause maybe the third party stand is wonky, right?

01:25:23   So that's why I was looking at it with the level again.

01:25:26   I realized the right side could go up a little.

01:25:29   And I didn't want to try to put any tiny shims

01:25:31   under the right side of the piece of furniture

01:25:33   'cause it's so heavy with all that stuff on it.

01:25:35   and it only needed to go up small.

01:25:36   So what I did was I took some cardboard out of the recycling,

01:25:39   like not cardboard, like corrugated cardboard,

01:25:41   but like the cardboard box that plastic Ziploc bags come in,

01:25:45   that kind of cardboard, and I cut one thickness of that,

01:25:49   one tiny square of that, and I put one of those

01:25:52   underneath each of the right hand feet on the stand.

01:25:56   Now it's really level.

01:25:57   - Wow.

01:25:58   - I'm so happy for you.

01:25:59   - Does it bother you?

01:26:00   I don't even want to, I don't even want to, nevermind.

01:26:04   - No, go ahead, tell me.

01:26:04   Is there something, some problem with metallurgy

01:26:07   that I need to address?

01:26:08   I'm prepared.

01:26:09   - Does it bother you that the bezel is thicker

01:26:11   on the bottom than the other sides of it?

01:26:12   - Oh yeah, no, it's fine.

01:26:13   Like I said, that's the only place where there's a bezel,

01:26:15   that there's like that less than one inch wide metal strip

01:26:18   across the whole thing.

01:26:19   I think this is also before I turned off the LED,

01:26:21   so I think it's on in this thing.

01:26:23   It's like a status indicator for the microphone,

01:26:25   'cause of course this thing has a microphone

01:26:26   that you can make listening or whatever,

01:26:27   but no, it's a chin, but it's like,

01:26:29   it's the smallest chin you've ever seen.

01:26:32   I was saying it was disconcerting to her

01:26:33   that the image went to the edge of the thing.

01:26:35   Oh, and you know this about quantum dot OLEDs,

01:26:38   but the viewing angle is unbelievable.

01:26:41   Plasmas have good viewing angles, and so do most OLEDs,

01:26:43   but 'cause this thing is on an angle,

01:26:45   you can get some pretty harsh angles

01:26:46   if you're coming in the room against the wall, whatever.

01:26:48   It never changes.

01:26:49   It's the same brightness, the same colors,

01:26:52   from any direction.

01:26:53   It's phenomenal looking, but yeah,

01:26:55   the chin doesn't bother me at all.

01:26:57   - Yeah, our beach TV is the stupid Samsung frame,

01:27:00   which is LCD, and not even a very good LCD.

01:27:03   It's just like a bog standard kind of edge-led LCD.

01:27:06   And every time we go to Westchester

01:27:09   and I have my old OLED there,

01:27:12   every time I'm like, whoa, first of all,

01:27:14   good to see the Minecraft HUD burned in still.

01:27:17   But second of all, oh my God, it looks so much better.

01:27:19   Like it's, when I go from LCD to OLED,

01:27:24   oh my God, such a big difference.

01:27:27   It is so much better.

01:27:29   - And QD OLED versus WRGB OLED

01:27:32   is yet a step farther in viewing that

01:27:34   because the regular OLEDs do color tint off axis

01:27:37   and get a little bit dimmer, not as bad as LCDs obviously,

01:27:39   but a little bit, but this QD OLED

01:27:41   just does not change from any angle.

01:27:43   It is really, it's kind of disconcerting.

01:27:45   It's pretty amazing.

01:27:47   We're talking about those plastic bins you see

01:27:51   next to the thing that just have a bunch of like

01:27:53   old GameCube controllers and stuff in there.

01:27:55   My office is like, well, now that you don't have

01:27:58   the GameCube connection anymore,

01:27:59   we can get rid of those bins.

01:28:00   and like, eh, I don't know.

01:28:01   They're kind of an important decorative element

01:28:03   of the setup.

01:28:04   - Wait, those just live there for like all the time?

01:28:07   - Yeah, I mean that's where all--

01:28:08   - No, you can't have that.

01:28:09   - If you wanna use one of the consoles,

01:28:11   that's where like the Wiimotes are

01:28:13   and the GameCube controllers which are wired,

01:28:15   there's a Wavebird in there, the memory cards,

01:28:17   like all that stuff is in there.

01:28:18   - Your TV setup is so carefully curated

01:28:22   to look nice and everything,

01:28:23   you can't just have plastic bins sitting next to it.

01:28:26   - But the plastic bins are also carefully curated.

01:28:28   Like for example, the white--

01:28:30   You gotta have that nicer.

01:28:31   If that stuff has to be there,

01:28:33   you gotta have some kind of nice little piece there.

01:28:36   It can't just be plastic bins, no.

01:28:38   - So like I said, that white GameCube controller

01:28:40   that you can see in the bottom bin with one handle of,

01:28:42   that is a brand new, never been used white GameCube

01:28:45   controller just sitting there pristine inside the thing.

01:28:48   - Yeah, that is not on display, Jon.

01:28:50   That's just in a bin.

01:28:51   - It's kind of on display.

01:28:52   - No, it's just in a bin.

01:28:53   - No, that's just in a bin.

01:28:54   - I don't get it when I think about it.

01:28:55   Anyway, they're nicely, also, the important function is,

01:28:57   we have to put something there because there's an outlet

01:28:59   behind there that things are plugged into.

01:29:03   Not attractive looking things.

01:29:05   So, like there's a clock on the mandel,

01:29:08   but it's a USB powered clock, and it's connected

01:29:10   to like a USB cable that plugs into a wall wart type thing.

01:29:13   So I do need something to block,

01:29:15   like the speaker wires go by there,

01:29:16   you can't really see 'em, but the speaker wires

01:29:18   are going that direction too.

01:29:19   So I need something there to hide the shame of the un--

01:29:23   - Well, but you have to put something

01:29:24   that doesn't add its own shame.

01:29:26   Clear plastic bins full of stuff are their own shame.

01:29:28   - I like, I'm comforted by the idea

01:29:31   of having clear plastic bins filled with console controllers.

01:29:34   There's also a very slim PS2 inside there as well.

01:29:37   And there's a couple of spare HDMI cables.

01:29:39   They could be a little bit neater.

01:29:40   There's a little bit of a disruption to the stuff in there,

01:29:43   let's say when I was just, you know, removing,

01:29:45   so I could rearrange them a little bit.

01:29:47   But actually kind of like having bins full

01:29:49   of old console controllers next to my television.

01:29:51   It makes me feel good.

01:29:52   Same reason, like, why do I have all those things on the TV?

01:29:54   The things that are DVD size cases.

01:29:56   First of all, they're DVD size cases instead of Blu-rays,

01:29:58   'cause DVD cases are taller.

01:30:00   They're basically filling space,

01:30:02   and what they are are games that I really like,

01:30:04   mostly in the order that I like them.

01:30:07   Modulo, an order that makes the color arrangement nice.

01:30:10   The right-hand side is the only thing to adjust.

01:30:12   It's a little bit off.

01:30:13   But yeah, that's decorative,

01:30:17   and also it's displaying favorites.

01:30:19   And if you were to look to the left,

01:30:21   you will see another area filled with decorative/favorites

01:30:24   of more DVD cases than Blu-ray cases.

01:30:26   It's not ideal, but it's kind of what I've gotten used to.

01:30:30   - See, that's something like, I think your arrangement

01:30:32   of anachronistic DVD cases and game discs

01:30:35   that you can't play anymore, that actually,

01:30:36   I think, looks nice.

01:30:38   But then when you compare it to the plastic bins of crap

01:30:41   to the left, those don't look right.

01:30:43   - Crap, that's not crap.

01:30:44   Those GameCube controllers alone

01:30:45   could put kids through college.

01:30:47   People want those.

01:30:48   Completely unused, original Nintendo--

01:30:50   - So sell them now while they're still worth anything.

01:30:53   - Oh, they're priceless to me.

01:30:56   So you want those what you're saying? No one else wants them as much as you do

01:31:00   Another another happy coincidence, right?

01:31:03   So you see the TiVo there on top of the TiVo is my new blu-ray player, which is just a black rectangular whatever

01:31:08   I would have a reverse that arrangement, but the TiVo is deeper

01:31:11   So I got to put the bigger one on the bottom and then above that is my center channel speaker. There is zero space

01:31:17   That speaker is literally touching the the top thing you you slide it and it goes

01:31:22   Like it is touching the underside of that table

01:31:25   I did not plan this, but it exactly fits.

01:31:29   - Which means that you can never replace

01:31:30   the TiVo or the Blu-ray player.

01:31:32   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:31:33   Well, what would I buy if they don't make

01:31:34   any different Blu-ray players?

01:31:36   And the TiVo, someone's just offering me

01:31:37   a potentially another TiVo Romeo Pro,

01:31:39   which is the model I have,

01:31:40   which is the best TiVo that has ever been made.

01:31:42   If you buy a brand new TiVo today,

01:31:44   you cannot get one with as much storage space

01:31:46   as the one that's sitting there, which boggles my mind.

01:31:48   Like that thing is, what, five years old, six?

01:31:50   Like hard drive size is huge now,

01:31:52   but now they're all smaller and crappier.

01:31:54   Anyway, I hope it never breaks.

01:31:57   If it does, I might just leave it there

01:31:58   as a decorative element.

01:31:59   - You know, we were speaking of, you know,

01:32:01   Sean Harding had talked to us about the Audi,

01:32:03   you know, endpoints and deprecations.

01:32:05   I guarantee that the TiVo is not gonna be around much longer.

01:32:09   It's just-

01:32:10   - They should have been dead a million times over.

01:32:11   I don't understand how they're still functioning,

01:32:13   and yet they do, and the TiVo still has

01:32:15   an amazing responsive interface that is nicer to use

01:32:17   than any of the modern things.

01:32:19   It looks old and dated now,

01:32:21   but just how fast it plays, pauses,

01:32:23   jumps forward and backwards and auto skips commercials

01:32:25   by hitting the green button, like nothing matches that.

01:32:28   - I mean, it seems like at this point,

01:32:29   TiVo is kind of undead.

01:32:31   Like, I think it seems like it should have died

01:32:33   so many times, it seems like it shouldn't still be working,

01:32:35   and yet it is.

01:32:36   At this point, it seems like it's unkillable,

01:32:38   and I would expect it to outlast

01:32:40   probably everything else in this picture.

01:32:42   - We'll see, I mean, that Blu-ray player

01:32:43   is the same one they've been selling

01:32:44   for six years or whatever, so.

01:32:46   Let us continue to sell that as a Blu-ray classic.

01:32:48   I can't get enough, I really should have taken

01:32:50   some screenshots of the UI, or some movies of it.

01:32:53   you would, however bad you think it is, it's worse.

01:32:56   Well, John, I am genuinely happy for you.

01:32:58   I am glad that after a long arduous eight years,

01:33:03   you are finally in a position to get a brand new television.

01:33:06   And it sounds like you aren't going to need to buy one again for a long time.

01:33:09   I really hope not. Or, I mean,

01:33:13   I kind of feel like when I got my power Mac G five, I was buying, you know,

01:33:17   the first, like people remember there was a big,

01:33:20   just continuity with the Power Mac G5,

01:33:23   'cause the G4 was stuck for a really long time

01:33:25   with the slow front side bus,

01:33:26   and it's like, when are they gonna make a tower computer

01:33:28   that's worthy of the processor or whatever?

01:33:30   And they came out with the G5,

01:33:31   which had amazing specs that leaked,

01:33:33   but no one believed 'cause they were so amazing,

01:33:34   and it was the very first generation of that product.

01:33:37   And it had problems, and it was weird.

01:33:39   Like my power supply chirped,

01:33:40   and it was like, they would work it out.

01:33:43   You know, it produced a lot of heat.

01:33:44   The fans were a little bit noisy.

01:33:46   They would make better G5 tower computers later,

01:33:49   and eventually much better Intel-based Mac Pros

01:33:52   in the same case, right?

01:33:54   This is the very first generation quantum.OLED television.

01:33:57   There's a Samsung one and there's this one.

01:33:59   That's it.

01:34:00   And they come in 55 and 65 and size.

01:34:01   I'm buying a first generation product.

01:34:04   And so that's a little bit scary,

01:34:05   but A, I didn't wanna wait any longer.

01:34:07   And B, I think for a first gen product,

01:34:09   unless there's some catastrophic problem

01:34:10   that we haven't figured out yet, I'm doing okay.

01:34:13   And if this, you know, if I have to replace this television,

01:34:16   like if something goes wrong,

01:34:17   oh, it turns out the first gen products,

01:34:18   they all died after two years.

01:34:20   I'll just buy another QD OLED,

01:34:21   and by then they would have worked out the kinks,

01:34:22   and it hopefully won't be as horrendously expensive as this.

01:34:24   So I'm living in your future.

01:34:27   Someday you will all, listeners and co-hosts,

01:34:30   have a quantum.OLED television probably,

01:34:32   and you'll like it a lot, 'cause it's really nice.

01:34:35   - Well, and I think too, first generation,

01:34:37   it would be one thing if this was the first OLED,

01:34:39   but it's not.

01:34:40   It's the first of an evolution of existing technologies.

01:34:44   The very first OLEDs probably had significant more problems

01:34:47   with like burn-in and stuff like that,

01:34:48   or the blue pixel's dying more over time or whatever it is.

01:34:52   But this is, I would expect this being

01:34:55   just a minor evolution really of all the technology.

01:34:57   I would expect this to be pretty safe.

01:35:01   - Yeah, I mean they have learned a lot from the other OLEDs,

01:35:03   but technologically speaking,

01:35:04   this screen just operates differently than the other ones.

01:35:06   It has a different backlight,

01:35:07   it has different pixel structures,

01:35:08   they manufacture in a different way.

01:35:10   It's learned a lot from the other ones,

01:35:12   but the technologies that are in the very best WRGB OLEDs

01:35:15   are actually slightly different than this.

01:35:16   Like the way they deal with their issues,

01:35:18   I think the new WRGB OLEDs use like deuterium or something

01:35:21   to try to like avoid burn-in.

01:35:23   Like they have different approaches,

01:35:24   whereas this one has defense against burn-in

01:35:28   for different reasons,

01:35:29   because it doesn't have to make the backlight as bright

01:35:32   because more of the light gets transmitted

01:35:34   so they can turn the backlight down

01:35:35   and they can match the brightness of WRGB OLEDs

01:35:38   at a fraction of the power

01:35:40   and a fraction of the actual light output

01:35:42   because more of the light actually makes it

01:35:43   to your eyeballs.

01:35:44   Same thing with like the polarizer and everything

01:35:46   and the pixels being kind of closer

01:35:48   to the surface of the screen,

01:35:49   not really, but looking like that,

01:35:51   because there's less crap between the thing

01:35:53   that makes the color and your eyeballs.

01:35:55   That's why the viewing angles are good,

01:35:56   that's why the color purity is good.

01:35:58   There's no white subpixels,

01:35:59   so there's just red, green, and blue on all of them.

01:36:02   The pixels are in a different arrangement.

01:36:03   So if you looked at this next to WRGB OLED,

01:36:06   it actually looks definitely different.

01:36:07   So there is a potential of this

01:36:08   to be catastrophically terrible,

01:36:10   and me to regret this in two years, but I really hope not.

01:36:13   - I don't think you will.

01:36:14   I think you're gonna be very happy with this.

01:36:16   probably for longer than you should.

01:36:17   Ahem, TiVo, ahem all your Mac Pros, ahem your last TV.

01:36:22   - Can you imagine if they made a 4K TiVo Romeo Pro?

01:36:26   - Boy, I would love that.

01:36:27   - Amazing.

01:36:28   - You're the only one left who would buy it.

01:36:29   - Yep, just me.

01:36:31   But I would pay a lot for it.

01:36:33   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:36:34   Squarespace, Linode, and Instabug.

01:36:37   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:36:39   You can join at atv.fm/join.

01:36:41   And we will talk to you next week.

01:36:44   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:36:51   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:36:57   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:37:02   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:37:07   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:37:12   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:37:21   So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:37:25   N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N S-I-R-A-C

01:37:30   U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A It's accidental

01:37:36   They didn't mean to accidental

01:37:41   ♪ We've got no tech broadcast so long ♪

01:37:45   - So forever ago, I put in a thing in the show notes

01:37:50   for the after show that I thought we would get to

01:37:52   at some point and we just haven't yet, that's fine.

01:37:55   And what I wrote was,

01:37:56   is it okay to copy a competitor's API?

01:37:58   And I don't remember what specifically

01:38:00   got me thinking about this,

01:38:01   but I thought about how like,

01:38:02   Android didn't necessarily copy an API

01:38:04   as much as they copied like all of Java.

01:38:06   And then, or I probably have the details wrong about that,

01:38:09   but you get the idea.

01:38:10   And then semi-recently, Cloudflare came out

01:38:13   with this R2 thing, which I guess is like

01:38:15   an Amazon S3 clone or something like that.

01:38:18   And now this is suddenly relevant anew.

01:38:21   So Marco, what you been up to lately?

01:38:23   (laughing)

01:38:24   - So the reason I brought this up,

01:38:25   or the reason I thought today was good for this,

01:38:27   was literally just today,

01:38:31   I used an S3 clone service for the first time.

01:38:35   And it was our sponsor, Linode,

01:38:36   it was their Linode object storage service,

01:38:39   which is another S3 clone.

01:38:42   Backblaze has their own too, Backblaze B2 it's called,

01:38:45   which I've mentioned before,

01:38:47   because that's one of the storage backends

01:38:49   that you can use with various backup tools

01:38:51   for things like Synology backups and things like that.

01:38:54   And so what most of these services do

01:38:58   is they implement the S3 API

01:39:02   with an S3-like service behind it.

01:39:05   I don't know, so Linodes seems to be running

01:39:07   the software package called Ceph, C-E-P-H.

01:39:10   I don't know how many of them are Ceph-based or what, but--

01:39:15   - Based on my experience with Ceph,

01:39:16   I'd worry about that a little bit,

01:39:18   but I can tell you on this,

01:39:20   so it's not just services like B2 and this Cloudflare thing.

01:39:25   Everybody implements the S3 API.

01:39:26   If you buy quote-unquote enterprise storage,

01:39:29   like you buy like a hardware with a bunch of boxes

01:39:31   that you're gonna put in your data center

01:39:33   from like EMC or Dell or IBM,

01:39:35   They also, all those boxes, also support the S3 API.

01:39:39   It has become the standard storage API

01:39:41   across the entire enterprise storage industry.

01:39:43   And by the way, when they say we implement the S3 API,

01:39:46   they always mean we implement a subset of the S3 API

01:39:51   as it existed in whatever we made this,

01:39:54   because the S3 API is always changing

01:39:55   and nobody implements all of it.

01:39:57   Doesn't matter if you're just doing gets and puts

01:39:59   and stuff like that, but the S3 API does not stand still

01:40:01   and nobody implements all the features.

01:40:03   But it is standardized.

01:40:04   this is relevant to the discussion,

01:40:05   it is standardized across the entire industry.

01:40:08   Everybody implements the S3 API.

01:40:10   - For the most part, and you're right,

01:40:12   it is always a subset and it is oftentimes outdated,

01:40:15   but frankly, when you look at Amazon's full S3 feature set,

01:40:20   there is so much complexity available there

01:40:24   that almost no users of it actually need.

01:40:26   Now, if you're one of the people who needs it,

01:40:28   obviously, great, good for you,

01:40:29   but most usage of S3 and its various clone services

01:40:34   or compatible services, whatever you wanna call them,

01:40:36   is that just basic stuff, you know, get, put, list,

01:40:39   you know, stuff like that.

01:40:40   - Yeah, but like a million features they have though,

01:40:43   it's kind of like the thing where like

01:40:45   you have a thousand customers,

01:40:46   each of which needs one one-thousandth of your feature set

01:40:49   and it's spread over the whole thing,

01:40:50   'cause those features don't exist for no reason.

01:40:52   Companies ask for them.

01:40:53   I have this experience on my past job.

01:40:56   We wanted features from S3 that S3 didn't provide

01:40:59   and through the magic of giving them millions of dollars

01:41:02   for AWS services and waiting several years,

01:41:05   those features appeared in S3 and we used them

01:41:08   and it made our lives better.

01:41:10   We may be the only people,

01:41:11   this is probably not a feature,

01:41:12   we weren't the only people,

01:41:13   I think it's a common thing or whatever,

01:41:15   but like every one of those features in S3 is there

01:41:17   because some big company that pays AWS millions

01:41:21   and millions of dollars wanted it and they put it there

01:41:23   and those companies use it and they're never gonna remove it

01:41:26   because you've got multimillion dollar customers using it.

01:41:28   But when you're using a third party thing,

01:41:31   like, I don't know what you wanna call it,

01:41:33   like a clone service or whatever,

01:41:35   they just implement whatever subset

01:41:36   they feel like they wanna support.

01:41:37   And they're not as big as AWS,

01:41:39   they probably don't have customers paying the million dollars

01:41:41   so, you know, we do the basic file operations

01:41:45   and people are happy, but those things that are in SD

01:41:47   aren't there for no reason.

01:41:49   - Oh no, agreed, it's not for no reason,

01:41:51   but yeah, but I think it's usually very narrow appeal

01:41:54   for most of them.

01:41:55   And this is true, you know, most of AWS,

01:41:57   like when you, if you, like me, originally used AWS

01:42:02   in like 2008 or something, or back when it was much younger

01:42:07   and much simpler, if you look at it today,

01:42:09   it's almost unrecognizable with how much complexity

01:42:11   there is in various parts of it.

01:42:13   But there is a large market for that simpler subset

01:42:17   of things, and for most people like me,

01:42:20   like making a web app that uses some kind of basic storage

01:42:23   or something, whatever subset is implemented

01:42:25   by these clone services is everything we need plus more.

01:42:30   So anyway, the reason I was looking at this

01:42:32   is that I've been looking to, with my overcast servers,

01:42:35   I've been looking to both reduce cost if possible

01:42:39   and where possible and also increase resiliency

01:42:42   to reduce the amount of headroom I have performance wise

01:42:46   and to reduce the incident of problems

01:42:49   that I have to deal with,

01:42:50   because if things get overloaded or whatever.

01:42:52   And so one of the ways I was doing that

01:42:54   was kind of taking advantage of S3 as both infinite space

01:42:59   and cheap space and as kind of infinite load capacity

01:43:05   for high requested things and to offload

01:43:09   certain high volume requests off of my main infrastructure

01:43:12   because I've run all these servers at Linode,

01:43:14   I have all these app servers,

01:43:16   I have a couple of load balancers in front of them

01:43:19   and the more requests I can not even send there,

01:43:23   the easier the load is on those servers

01:43:25   and then it can save money on those servers

01:43:26   and save resources and have more headroom

01:43:28   and stuff like that.

01:43:29   So, using S3 and also putting Cloudflare in front of it,

01:43:34   not CloudFront, not the Amazon CDN,

01:43:37   Cloudflare, the entirely separate service.

01:43:40   - You mean CloudWatch?

01:43:41   - No, I mean CloudFlare.

01:43:43   - Not CloudWatch, not CloudFlare, not CloudFront.

01:43:46   - And the trick with CloudFlare is that it's a CDN

01:43:52   that is flat rate and does not charge you for transfer.

01:43:56   It's unlimited, whatever that means in technology,

01:43:59   there's always a bunch of asterisks,

01:44:00   but it's at least unmetered, seemingly, transfer.

01:44:03   You don't pay per byte served.

01:44:05   And it's not that expensive.

01:44:08   They have a free plan, I'm using the one

01:44:09   that's 200 bucks a month, and I'm sending hundreds of gigs,

01:44:13   I'm sending much more bandwidth through it

01:44:16   than what that would normally buy.

01:44:18   It's like hundreds of gigs per day

01:44:19   that I'm serving through there.

01:44:20   It's a large amount of bandwidth for a $200 a month plan.

01:44:24   And frankly, I think I actually could be fine

01:44:27   on the free plan.

01:44:28   The downside of Cloudflare being your CDN

01:44:31   is that its retention is pretty crappy.

01:44:36   So you get what you pay for in terms of its cash retention.

01:44:38   And so it does have to go back to the origin a lot,

01:44:41   which in my case is S3.

01:44:43   And you do pay for that.

01:44:45   'Cause Amazon charges you not only some small amount

01:44:48   per request, but they also charge you most significantly

01:44:51   in transfer costs, like whatever--

01:44:53   - Egress only though.

01:44:54   - Yes, egress only.

01:44:56   - And you can do anything within AWS.

01:44:59   It's so many asterisks on how they charge for S3,

01:45:02   including data transfer.

01:45:04   You have to know where you're sending from,

01:45:05   where you're sending to.

01:45:07   - Yes, however, and that being said,

01:45:09   I think you can look at a lot of Amazon Web Services pricing

01:45:12   and some of it's reasonable.

01:45:14   the data transfer, the egress fees are exorbitant.

01:45:19   They have very, very healthy profits on those.

01:45:24   This is like Apple RAM pricing for transfer.

01:45:28   - It's different though because in AWS,

01:45:30   people don't pay those prices.

01:45:31   It's kind of like-- - Well, I do.

01:45:34   - Yeah, but yeah, if you're,

01:45:35   big companies don't pay the prices that you see.

01:45:38   Little people who are doing one thing,

01:45:39   yeah, that's what you pay, but nobody,

01:45:41   nobody who's a big company pays the prices

01:45:43   that you see listed on AWS.

01:45:44   - Yeah, so anyway, so I'm serving a couple of things here.

01:45:47   I'm serving the podcast artwork thumbnails from there,

01:45:52   so that way when you bring up the directory,

01:45:55   when you search, those thumbnails load really fast.

01:45:58   I'm also, in the latest update of Overcast,

01:46:00   I'm serving the kind of like Overcast custom JSON format

01:46:05   of episode list data, so like the list of episodes

01:46:10   that are in a feed in my data format

01:46:13   that is sent to the app,

01:46:14   that is now being served from the CDN.

01:46:16   And the idea here is when a podcast publishes a new episode,

01:46:21   that gets updated and then the server

01:46:23   sends a push notification to all the copies of the app

01:46:25   saying hey, update this.

01:46:27   And then all the copies of the app

01:46:28   that are subscribed to that feed

01:46:30   all have to pull that same file within a few minutes.

01:46:33   So I figured a CDN is perfect for that

01:46:35   because not only will it be faster,

01:46:36   but that's a whole bunch of cache hits

01:46:38   that won't hit any part of my infrastructure.

01:46:41   So it'll save on my end, it'll save those big load spikes,

01:46:45   which it does, and it's been great.

01:46:48   The downside is that, again, the Cloudflare hit rate

01:46:52   is not great because their retention rate isn't very good

01:46:55   because, I mean, I'm talking hundreds of gigs of data here

01:46:58   that are potentially being cached,

01:47:00   and they're not gonna spend hundreds of gigs of their RAM

01:47:04   holding all my data in memory for 200 bucks a month.

01:47:07   So that makes sense, I'm not blaming them,

01:47:10   it is what it is.

01:47:11   So anyway, so I started looking for options

01:47:13   that would save money because I learned,

01:47:17   I just started doing all of this in the month of July,

01:47:19   it is now August, and my July bill for AWS

01:47:22   is comically large, and so it could almost buy John's TV.

01:47:27   (laughs)

01:47:28   - Good, nice.

01:47:28   - So I'm like, all right, the part of this

01:47:31   that was supposed to be saving me money is not working,

01:47:34   It's actually now costing me more to host things this way

01:47:37   than it was in the old way, so let me revisit

01:47:40   the cost angle of this.

01:47:42   And so there's a couple of options.

01:47:44   So there's apparently a deal between Backblaze

01:47:48   and Cloudflare that if you use Backblaze's clone,

01:47:52   the B2 service, they don't charge you for bandwidth

01:47:54   when it's being sent to Cloudflare.

01:47:57   So that's an option, that I could use the Backblaze B2

01:48:01   service as my backend instead of S3,

01:48:03   and pay no fees in transfer.

01:48:07   Another option, which is the one I'm trying first,

01:48:10   is Linode, frequent sponsor of the show,

01:48:13   including this episode, and the place I host all my servers,

01:48:16   and by the way, I pay, Linode does not pay

01:48:20   for my servers for me, they pay us for their ads,

01:48:24   but my account is a regular account that I just pay for,

01:48:27   Overcast pays it full price, I don't get any special

01:48:29   discounts or anything like that.

01:48:31   So I buy a lot of Linode servers.

01:48:34   And Linode has their object storage service,

01:48:37   which is their S3 clone.

01:48:39   It is something like five times cheaper than S3

01:48:42   for the transfer fees.

01:48:45   And if I'm reading the docs correctly,

01:48:47   I think first it exhausts the transfer

01:48:51   that I'm already paying for in my Linode plan.

01:48:53   'Cause every Linode server that you buy

01:48:55   comes with 2,000 gigs a month

01:48:58   or something like that of transfer.

01:48:59   And I buy so many servers that I never come close

01:49:02   to using all that.

01:49:03   I have a massive surplus of transfer every month

01:49:05   from Linux that I don't use.

01:49:07   So not only is it five times cheaper

01:49:09   when you are paying per gig,

01:49:11   but I think I am actually not gonna be paying much at all

01:49:14   because I think I'm gonna actually be fitting

01:49:15   within my giant surplus that I have from all my servers.

01:49:17   So I'm trying that now first.

01:49:20   And all this is to say, when I first adopted all of this

01:49:24   with my code base over the last month or so,

01:49:28   The first, I've written against S3 since Tumblr.

01:49:31   I've used S3 for a very long time.

01:49:33   Tumblr stored every image that people have loaded in S3.

01:49:36   So I've written against it using PHP for a very long time.

01:49:40   I've been through the various complexities

01:49:42   as they went to their complex ACL system,

01:49:45   their complex user system,

01:49:47   when they changed the signature method

01:49:49   from the old really basic AWS signature thing

01:49:52   to the new signature version two.

01:49:54   I've gone through all that.

01:49:56   And when I went to go integrate this,

01:49:59   I'm like, you know what, let me look and let me make sure.

01:50:01   Overcast has been using S3 since its beginning,

01:50:03   'cause I had the file upload feature,

01:50:05   but that was using the old v1 signature method

01:50:07   and a couple of these 15 line functions I wrote

01:50:11   to just do basic S3 commands.

01:50:13   But I thought, well, if I'm gonna be building

01:50:15   this significant part of my infrastructure now on S3,

01:50:18   let me make sure I'm doing everything

01:50:20   the most up-to-date way.

01:50:21   That way, I don't have to worry so much about deprecations

01:50:24   for a longer time, et cetera.

01:50:26   So I learned about the various different ways

01:50:29   you're supposed to now address S3,

01:50:30   including the new signature method.

01:50:31   I did all that, 'cause I looked at the S3 library

01:50:36   for PHP I'm supposed to be using from them,

01:50:39   and it's like 100 files, and it's thousands of lines

01:50:42   of code, many thousands of lines of code.

01:50:45   - Oh my word. - And it is,

01:50:46   because S3 is now this monster of a service

01:50:51   inside of Amazon Web Services,

01:50:53   which is this monster of a suite of services,

01:50:55   it's so far beyond what I need,

01:50:57   which literally what I need is like,

01:50:59   get, put, list, delete, and generate authenticated URLs.

01:51:02   That's it.

01:51:03   What I need is the feature set it had in 2008.

01:51:07   I just need that today.

01:51:09   I literally don't need anything else.

01:51:11   Maybe HTTPS support.

01:51:13   I don't even need that.

01:51:15   That's just optional.

01:51:16   Anyway, so I see,

01:51:21   When I look at what I have to do to use their PHP library

01:51:24   and the amount of bloat and I look at the code

01:51:29   and it's like a middleware factory,

01:51:31   I'm like I don't even know what half these words mean.

01:51:34   And I don't even know what this is doing.

01:51:36   The old way of doing this was a 15 line function

01:51:39   in my utilities file.

01:51:40   Clearly there has to be a simpler way.

01:51:43   So of course I wrote my own, of course, right?

01:51:45   It's nobody's surprise.

01:51:46   - You?

01:51:47   - And so I have my entire S3 class

01:51:50   that does everything you need to do in the most modern way

01:51:52   is 250 lines of code in one file.

01:51:55   And the classic's just called S3.

01:51:57   There's no like namespace garbage with PHP's backslashes,

01:51:59   all this crap, like no, it's just one file called S3

01:52:02   and it's 250 lines and it's very, very simple

01:52:05   and it does everything, the new signature and everything.

01:52:07   Anyway, so all this is to say, of course I wrote my own

01:52:09   and it took a couple days to do it,

01:52:11   but it was totally worth it in my opinion

01:52:13   for my needs and goals.

01:52:15   So when I started playing with, when I started deciding,

01:52:17   all right, I'm gonna use, I'm gonna try out

01:52:18   these clone services and see what works for me.

01:52:21   I thought, well crap, I wrote all of this

01:52:23   to the brand new, I guess not brand new,

01:52:27   but to the newest AWS Signature V2

01:52:30   and all these new ways of addressing the host name

01:52:33   and everything and I thought,

01:52:35   there is no way all these clone services are gonna,

01:52:38   like I'm gonna have to rewrite the old method

01:52:40   in my new file and figure out how to do it and everything.

01:52:43   But I'm like, let me just try it first.

01:52:45   And I tried literally just swapping out the host name

01:52:49   to the Linode endpoint, and it just worked.

01:52:52   And that was it.

01:52:53   - That's because all the stuff you were describing is new

01:52:56   was like five years ago.

01:52:58   It's like it's not that new.

01:52:59   - Right, but even then, who knows how long

01:53:03   these services have been around, who knows,

01:53:06   whenever Ceph started, they probably forked it then

01:53:09   and haven't really updated since.

01:53:10   User in the chat, heavy machinery says,

01:53:15   I should write my own S3 called Overcast 02.

01:53:20   That's fantastic, I totally would.

01:53:22   I thought about it.

01:53:25   I did!

01:53:26   Just for my own use, just for cheap posting reasons.

01:53:30   I kind of did that at my last job.

01:53:33   I'm sure this is not an uncommon thing.

01:53:35   But anyway.

01:53:36   Don't recommend it.

01:53:37   Just use S3.

01:53:39   Yeah, so anyway, I think ultimately,

01:53:43   my needs are simple enough that hopefully I can use

01:53:45   one of these other services because the cost is literally,

01:53:48   it's like five times less or even cheaper.

01:53:51   So I'm trying that out, but anyway,

01:53:53   all this is to say I'm very impressed by how,

01:53:56   it literally was just a drop in replacement.

01:53:58   And in fact, all of the documentation for these services

01:54:02   that say like how to access them,

01:54:04   they even tell you just use Amazon's library

01:54:06   and just change the endpoint to this one hostname

01:54:09   and that's it.

01:54:10   So I was-- - That is wild.

01:54:12   - I'm very impressed by, so far, by Linode Object Storage.

01:54:17   I decided not to try Cloudflare R2

01:54:19   because I asked on Twitter and people say

01:54:20   there's actually no way to serve files publicly from it

01:54:25   that's built in.

01:54:26   You have to write a Cloudflare worker

01:54:29   which is their own custom type of thing

01:54:32   that can run on their CDN endpoint nodes

01:54:36   which it's a very powerful thing for what I hear,

01:54:39   but I don't know anything about it,

01:54:40   and I don't wanna get into that right now.

01:54:41   So I'm not gonna do Cloudflare R2.

01:54:43   I'm gonna try Linode's thing first,

01:54:45   and if it doesn't end up working for me,

01:54:46   I'll try Backblaze B2.

01:54:48   But yeah, very, very impressed by these things so far.

01:54:53   As for the original question posed in the show notes

01:54:55   of is it okay to copy a competitor's API,

01:54:58   with something like this,

01:55:00   you know, S3 just became the standard,

01:55:04   And then other people made their own alternatives

01:55:07   that work with it.

01:55:08   Like, I don't think that's that bad.

01:55:12   - If you asked AWS, I think they'd be happy

01:55:13   that this happened.

01:55:15   And I mean, sometimes competitors are unhappy

01:55:17   when it happens.

01:55:18   Like, oh, we made this API, it's our thing,

01:55:20   you're copying us, you're taking advantage

01:55:22   of like, we did this work in the market to say,

01:55:23   hey, here's a storage API, write your application against it.

01:55:26   You just copied our API so you can get our customers

01:55:28   and they don't have to change their code, right?

01:55:30   But the only reason to really be mad about that

01:55:32   is if you're afraid that your customers

01:55:33   will do a better job than you do at providing an S3 compatible service.

01:55:37   So I don't know the history behind this at AWS, but I can tell you that what has actually

01:55:41   happened is everybody into one of the S3 API, all these storage vendors that used to have

01:55:45   their own proprietary HTTP based APIs, because they did, they're like, they saw S3, well,

01:55:48   we'll do our own thing, right?

01:55:50   All of them had to add S3 because it became the standard because no one wanted to change

01:55:53   their software.

01:55:55   But in the end, Amazon still provides the best, most full featured, highest specs and

01:56:01   often best priced if you're a giant corporation.

01:56:04   - Highest priced at least.

01:56:06   - No, the best price because they send a team of people

01:56:09   who are gonna be your AWS agents to work with your company.

01:56:13   We're like, in the world of big bucks.

01:56:16   - That team of people is not coming to Fire Island.

01:56:18   - No, they are not.

01:56:19   You do not have a team of people working with you.

01:56:21   But if you spent-- - Just get on the ferry.

01:56:23   - If you spent a few dozen million more dollars in AWS,

01:56:25   you would have a team of people.

01:56:26   Anyway, and so Amazon, this has been great for Amazon

01:56:29   It is the defacto storage API standard

01:56:32   and Amazon 100% controls it.

01:56:34   So when Amazon adds a feature

01:56:36   that enough of its customers want,

01:56:38   now Dell has to add that feature too

01:56:40   in the next year or two.

01:56:41   And by the way, they're always perpetually behind

01:56:43   what Amazon is doing, 'cause Amazon rolls it out

01:56:45   and you don't find that,

01:56:46   Dell and EMC don't find out about it

01:56:48   until AWS Invent or whatever, you hear it announced.

01:56:51   And then, like I said, if it's a popular feature,

01:56:54   customers get cranky, like,

01:56:55   "Oh, I wanna use that cool new feature."

01:56:57   but your supposedly S3 compatible API doesn't have it,

01:57:00   and they need to add it, they're always behind, right?

01:57:03   And that would be fine if they could beat them

01:57:04   on price or performance and stuff,

01:57:06   but it's difficult to keep up with AWS.

01:57:08   So AWS has control of the API that everyone else

01:57:12   essentially is forced to use,

01:57:13   and they're always one step ahead of everyone else.

01:57:15   And by the way, S3 and AWS are actually

01:57:18   pretty good services, like in terms of the specs

01:57:20   and features and performance.

01:57:21   So I think in the end, I mean, maybe AWS was pissed

01:57:24   about this in the beginning, and maybe sued some people,

01:57:25   I don't know the history behind it,

01:57:27   but right now they're sitting pretty.

01:57:28   Like who wouldn't want to,

01:57:29   and it's not even like an industry standard

01:57:31   that has a consortium doing it.

01:57:32   Amazon can do whatever they want with S3

01:57:34   and everyone else just has to scramble to copy them.

01:57:37   - Yeah, and there's so many benefits.

01:57:39   Like when, like, to just use the tooling,

01:57:42   for instance, one of the tools that's been invaluable to me

01:57:45   when doing S3 development is Transmit by Panic,

01:57:48   which most people know as an FTP app,

01:57:50   but Transmit has a ton of other like languages

01:57:54   that speaks to servers to interact with them,

01:57:56   including the S3 protocol.

01:57:58   So you can open up your S3 buckets in Transmit

01:58:01   and it looks like a file system.

01:58:03   And you can go and you can browse things

01:58:05   and you can quick look things and you can edit and delete.

01:58:07   And when you're developing an S3-based something,

01:58:10   that's actually really useful.

01:58:12   And I was able to, they have in their screen

01:58:17   to set up a new profile in Transmit,

01:58:19   you pick S3 as a protocol,

01:58:22   but then you can give it a custom host name.

01:58:24   So I just gave it the, you know,

01:58:26   US East one, LinodeObjects.com in there,

01:58:28   and it's talking to my Linode, like, object storage,

01:58:31   just exactly the same way.

01:58:33   Like, that's awesome, like, to have all of that

01:58:36   tooling support and everything,

01:58:38   it's just very, it's very wonderful as a developer,

01:58:41   and as to whether it's like, you know,

01:58:43   okay for the source company, you know,

01:58:44   John, you're right about, you know,

01:58:46   strategically speaking, it's pretty good for Amazon,

01:58:48   because the value that they are providing

01:58:50   is not the API, it's the service behind it

01:58:54   and all the different capabilities

01:58:56   and the integration with other AWS services.

01:58:59   That's the value they're providing.

01:59:01   So I don't think it really hurts them

01:59:03   to have other people offering competing things

01:59:06   for the basics because you're right,

01:59:10   they have all these advantages by having this

01:59:11   become the industry standard that they are still

01:59:13   in full control of and all of the high-end use

01:59:16   will still go to them.

01:59:18   But then the low end use like this,

01:59:21   it greatly benefits people like me

01:59:22   who are more value conscious.

01:59:23   And that's pretty great, for us at least.

01:59:26   - Yeah, most of the value services,

01:59:28   if you're trying to undercut AWS on cost,

01:59:30   A, it's hard if you're an enterprise,

01:59:32   'cause again, they get the fancy enterprise pricing

01:59:34   that they don't pay at the retail thing.

01:59:37   And B, they're just not gonna match AWS's specs,

01:59:39   'cause they don't have to.

01:59:40   If you want to be lower priced, you have to give up stuff.

01:59:43   You can't have 800 storage tiers.

01:59:45   You can't have 11 nines of data durability,

01:59:47   which is what S3 has, right?

01:59:49   If you wanna save some money,

01:59:50   you don't need 11 nines of data durability

01:59:52   for your things, I'm assuming you don't.

01:59:54   You'd take, you know, seven nines probably.

01:59:57   It's plenty of nines for you, right?

01:59:59   Some people don't need any nines, you know,

02:00:00   and like, although AWS has models for that too,

02:00:04   that, you know, they have storage tiers

02:00:05   where, you know, it's only in one location

02:00:07   and you don't care if it goes away or whatever.

02:00:09   So it's difficult to compete even on the low end,

02:00:11   but that's the place where there's possibly,

02:00:13   you know, using Ceph,

02:00:15   which is an open source cluster file system,

02:00:17   Using Ceph as the backend lets you not have to

02:00:20   essentially re-implement S3

02:00:22   because some open source thing did.

02:00:23   Is Ceph as good as S3?

02:00:25   No, it's not, it's absolutely not.

02:00:27   But if you wanna undercut AWS on price

02:00:30   for regular people who aren't giant enterprises

02:00:32   and you don't care about all those fancy features

02:00:33   and you don't care about the safety and performance,

02:00:37   yeah, that's the little niche

02:00:39   that these companies can carve out for themselves.

02:00:41   And it's, I honestly, when I see a lot of these services,

02:00:44   I do wonder how many of them

02:00:45   are just front ends for S3.

02:00:48   And you might think like, how is that possible?

02:00:50   How can they undercut S3's pricing?

02:00:51   - Volume discounts.

02:00:52   - Right, exactly, because you pay them

02:00:56   what you think is less than the manufacturer

02:00:58   suggested retail price for the service you're getting,

02:01:00   but they pay S3 the,

02:01:02   you are a multimillion dollar corporation price.

02:01:05   And so they're just, you know,

02:01:07   - That's pretty funny.

02:01:08   - Like just skimming off the top

02:01:10   and they're essentially giving you access to their,

02:01:13   you know, enterprise company discount to S3,

02:01:16   but saving a little bit for themselves.

02:01:17   I don't know if any of them are doing that,

02:01:19   it's just, that is a plausible thing that could be done.

02:01:21   - That's amazing.

02:01:22   - That is kind of amazing.

02:01:23   - The magic of enterprise pricing,

02:01:25   the world of, you know, enterprise software

02:01:28   and corporate services is really weird.

02:01:30   [beeping]

02:01:32   [