493: Downstairs Downstairs


00:00:00   It has been so long since we recorded.

00:00:02   So since we last recorded,

00:00:05   I have gotten the new MacBook Air,

00:00:07   already did an entire three hour podcast about it

00:00:10   with Jon Gruber, the talk show at 352.

00:00:12   I DFU restored my 14 inch MacBook Pro,

00:00:15   which I think has fixed most of its problems,

00:00:17   and I went to two fish concerts.

00:00:19   - You went to two fish concerts?

00:00:21   Why were you going to two?

00:00:22   - Yeah, we got a poll on that thread in a second,

00:00:24   but since we're doing our quick updates,

00:00:26   meanwhile, I went to Cape Charles for a week

00:00:28   and Michaela got her second shot.

00:00:30   So the List family is as vaccinated

00:00:32   as we can possibly be right now,

00:00:33   and I'm very excited about that.

00:00:34   - All right. - John,

00:00:35   what have you been doing?

00:00:36   - I've been on Long Island just hanging out at the beach.

00:00:40   I'm back now, though.

00:00:40   My most exciting upcoming news,

00:00:42   oh, I did get my M2 MacBook Air.

00:00:44   Well, it's not mine.

00:00:45   My M2 MacBook Air for my son,

00:00:47   he's got that up on his desk,

00:00:48   and he's using it as if nothing has changed

00:00:50   from his M1 MacBook Air, so that's fine.

00:00:52   But my exciting news is that my television,

00:00:55   in theory, is arriving on Monday.

00:00:57   (all gasp)

00:00:58   - Did you prepare the way?

00:00:59   - The way is not yet prepared.

00:01:00   I just got back from vacation literally today.

00:01:02   So I really haven't, I've just barely started unpacking

00:01:06   stuff and plugging things back in.

00:01:08   Oh, I had an ominous email for my Synology

00:01:10   while I was gone too.

00:01:11   - Saying what?

00:01:12   - Tell me if you ever got this one.

00:01:14   Let me see.

00:01:15   Synology detected an abnormal power failure

00:01:18   that occurred on drive two in volume one.

00:01:20   - Oh, that doesn't sound good.

00:01:21   - Are there normal power failures?

00:01:23   - What is an abnormal power failure that occurred on drive,

00:01:26   how can a power failure occur on a drive?

00:01:28   Anyway, I didn't do anything to it yet.

00:01:31   I went downstairs and looked at it

00:01:32   and all the lights are on and none of the lights are angry.

00:01:35   It says to, for more information, go to storage manager,

00:01:38   storage, and check the suggestions

00:01:39   under the corresponding volume.

00:01:40   The suggestion probably is,

00:01:41   hey, don't use hard drives for eight years.

00:01:43   - I mean, that's a pretty good suggestion.

00:01:45   - But anyway, I haven't looked into my Synology yet,

00:01:47   but tomorrow, in theory, I will begin preparing the way

00:01:50   for the television.

00:01:52   - That's gotta be a big job.

00:01:54   - So I was gonna ask, we don't have to go into the nitty-gritty

00:01:56   but would you mind giving just like the briefest overview

00:01:59   of what you expect preparing the way to look like?

00:02:01   - So I have to rip everything out

00:02:03   that's under my television stand thing now.

00:02:06   So I've got a receiver, I've got a bunch of game consoles,

00:02:09   I've got a TiVo, I've got a PlayStation 3.

00:02:11   Let's see, Apple TV, there's a lot of crap back there

00:02:17   across all the like plugs and surge strips

00:02:19   and all that other stuff that it plugs into.

00:02:22   That's all gotta come out

00:02:23   because some of those game consoles

00:02:25   either can't connect to my television or I won't be connecting to my television.

00:02:29   The PlayStation 3 is just going into cold storage because I have a dedicated Blu-ray player and

00:02:35   that's the only thing I was using that thing for. And then I have to get my plasma television off

00:02:40   of the stand, leaving the stand empty. And then I have to repopulate the stand by sticking in my

00:02:45   new receiver, putting in the game consoles that I'm going to continue to keep/use as decorative

00:02:51   items. Some of the game consoles are going to become decorative items. I know I could buy an

00:02:57   adapter to like you know connect these. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do. I have the component video

00:03:02   cable for my you know GameCube and Wii and the Wii U with HDMI so I could get adapters for those

00:03:09   things but it's not probably not worth it so I'll probably leave some of them in there as

00:03:13   space fillers and decorations. But really the main task is putting the new receiver in connecting the

00:03:17   the umpteen speaker wires to it and swapping an all new fancy 4k high frame

00:03:23   rate blah blah blah whatever HDMI cables for the old ones which don't support any

00:03:29   of the new fancy stuff and in theory fingers crossed I have all the things

00:03:34   that I need I have the cables I have the receiver I have the blu-ray player that

00:03:39   had a little minor surgery as we talked about in the past episode so the

00:03:42   So preparing the way, if it all goes well,

00:03:46   when the television arrives,

00:03:47   there will be a television stand with all new equipment in it

00:03:50   with no television on top of it,

00:03:52   and they will just drop off the television

00:03:53   and hopefully leave my house,

00:03:54   and then I have to connect the third-party stand

00:03:56   to my television, and we'll see how that goes.

00:03:57   You'll hear about it in the next episode, I'm sure.

00:04:00   (electronic beeping)

00:04:01   - So how is your MacBook Air to pop the stack a little bit?

00:04:05   - All right, so I did a much longer review on the talk show,

00:04:07   but my gist of it here is

00:04:11   It feels strikingly good.

00:04:13   Like when you pick it up or move it

00:04:16   or open it up to use it or close it,

00:04:18   it just feels really good.

00:04:21   It is really fast and it sounds like crap.

00:04:26   - What do you mean it sounds like crap?

00:04:27   - The speakers are garbage.

00:04:28   But everything else-- - Oh, really?

00:04:30   - Yeah, when you compare it to the MacBook Pro 14,

00:04:33   most of the differences where the MacBook Pro

00:04:36   is an upgrade, when you're using them side by side

00:04:39   or when you switch between them,

00:04:40   really notice them. The differences aren't that noticeable in the screen quality, the

00:04:46   promotion, like I don't notice when promotion is not there really. I do very much notice

00:04:52   the speaker difference. It is extremely obvious every time the computer plays any kind of

00:04:56   sound. The MacBook Air speakers are pretty rough when you are used to the MacBook Pro

00:05:01   speakers. They're good in absolute terms compared to other small inexpensive laptops, but compared

00:05:07   to the 14 inch MacBook Pro it's no contest. The speakers on the MacBook Pro are both much

00:05:12   much louder and much better sound quality in general. The MacBook Air speakers sound

00:05:16   like small tinny speakers but everything else in its comparable category and like you know

00:05:22   the PC market and stuff you know it compares very well to those but yeah compared to the

00:05:27   14 inch it's no contest. However, the way it feels oh my god it feels so thin and light

00:05:34   when you compare it to the 14 inch.

00:05:36   And the difference on paper doesn't seem like

00:05:38   it would be that much, but it matters a lot.

00:05:41   It is extremely noticeable and it just feels fantastic

00:05:45   when you have to pick it up or hold it or whatever.

00:05:48   It's fantastic. - That's awesome.

00:05:49   - So very, very happy with it.

00:05:52   I'm already finding lots of various uses

00:05:54   for now having three computers. (laughs)

00:05:57   But I love it, it's great, and if you are at all

00:06:01   on the fence on whether you might want a MacBook Air,

00:06:04   Go for it. It's great. I did get silver. I think it is the generally the best color that's

00:06:09   available I think right now. It is the most boring color. Well, I wouldn't say that. Space

00:06:14   gray is the most boring color. But silver is certainly a close second in that regard.

00:06:21   It is a boring color but I as I mentioned before I think the the new super dark blue

00:06:27   in practice is very fingerprinty and usually looks just black and I don't I don't love

00:06:33   and the gold I think is nice if you don't have

00:06:38   any other silver aluminum on your desk.

00:06:42   But if you have any other silver aluminum on your desk,

00:06:44   it doesn't quite match it and it looks kind of wrong.

00:06:48   So that's up to you whether that's a problem for you or not.

00:06:52   But yeah, I love this thing, I think it's great.

00:06:54   I did notice they moved the headphone jack

00:06:57   back to the wrong side.

00:06:59   - Oh did they?

00:07:00   You know, from the 2016 dark days,

00:07:04   we had the headphone jack move to the right,

00:07:06   and of course, listeners heard me complain about that

00:07:09   forever on this show, because headphones typically

00:07:12   that have only one ear cup connecting to the wire,

00:07:15   usually that's the left side of the headphone,

00:07:18   and so it doesn't make a lot of sense

00:07:20   to put the headphone jack on the right,

00:07:22   because not only does it intrude into your mouse space,

00:07:24   if you're a right-handed mouse user,

00:07:25   if you have them next to the laptop,

00:07:27   but then also, it has to then wrap around

00:07:29   to the left side of the laptop,

00:07:30   either crossing behind it or in front of it

00:07:32   to get to the left ear cup of a left-wired headphone.

00:07:36   So they moved the headphone jack back over to the left

00:07:40   on the new MacBook Pros when they came out last year.

00:07:42   But it's for some reason staying on the right

00:07:44   for the MacBook Air.

00:07:45   So eh, that's, you know, it's not great.

00:07:48   - That's the same complaint about all the ports

00:07:50   on the MacBook Air.

00:07:51   Like it's got two, you know, the MagSafe

00:07:53   and the two Thunderbolt ports or whatever,

00:07:54   and they're all on the left side.

00:07:56   And it would be nice if there was one port

00:07:58   on one side and one port on the other.

00:07:59   You can see that if they put them on one on one side one of the other people would complain they aren't both on the

00:08:03   Same side, so there's no perfect solution there

00:08:04   I understand that like we're just you don't see the other side of it

00:08:08   But yeah the headphone port being over there seems to be the same

00:08:11   Oh, no, I know it's not on the left is on the right it

00:08:13   Well, so it's like it's part of that whole the left is occupied by all the other ports

00:08:17   So the right is the place with space remaining to put stuff

00:08:20   But it's kind of weird because if you look at the motherboard they they did the thing they've done for many years now and made

00:08:25   the ports modular so if you break a port or something you don't have to replace

00:08:29   your entire logic board you just you know they take off that little module

00:08:32   put another one on but of course you've got to get all the traces and everything

00:08:35   to the place where the thing is so yeah it's kind of a shame that they didn't

00:08:39   flip the thing around but speaking of audio stuff that I missed the part where

00:08:42   you compared the m2 MacBook Air to the m1 MacBook Air speakers I would if I

00:08:47   still had that computer in my possession but I do not

00:08:50   yes but based on your memory though because you're saying all the speaker

00:08:52   sounds terrible.

00:08:53   I would expect that they would sound worse than the much

00:08:56   thicker, more expensive fancy computer,

00:08:58   but I'm wondering how it sounds.

00:08:59   I mean, I guess I have both of them in my house.

00:09:01   I can check it out.

00:09:02   I just honestly never use those speakers.

00:09:04   My son always has his AirPods in or some other headphones in.

00:09:07   But I'll check.

00:09:08   I have both machines.

00:09:08   Let's see if I can check back in next week if I remember.

00:09:11   Yeah.

00:09:11   I don't want to assign homework because I'm not allowed to.

00:09:14   However, I would love to know that information from you.

00:09:16   But I'm guessing it's probably-- I'm

00:09:18   sure it compares well to its own predecessor

00:09:20   and previous MacBook Airs.

00:09:22   But yeah, in general, this thing,

00:09:25   they're gonna sell an absolute ton of these things.

00:09:27   And I think for the first time,

00:09:31   well, I guess not the M1,

00:09:32   you can say the same thing with the M1,

00:09:34   but there's no longer a cheap but bad option

00:09:38   in the Apple laptop lineup that you shouldn't buy.

00:09:40   There's the 13 inch MacBook Pro that you shouldn't buy.

00:09:43   But that's not that cheap.

00:09:46   So whether you get the M1 MacBook Air,

00:09:50   which is still being sold now,

00:09:51   or whether you get this, they're both amazing computers.

00:09:54   They've done such a great job with this.

00:09:56   And man, the laptop lineup is in such a great place

00:10:00   right now, like again, with the exception

00:10:02   of that stupid 13 inch, which it's not a,

00:10:05   it isn't a bad computer.

00:10:06   There are just much better computers right next to it

00:10:08   in the lineup, but with that sole weird spot,

00:10:12   you really can't make a bad decision in this lineup.

00:10:14   It's just, it's great, all of them are great

00:10:17   and you get to kinda just pick what size and features

00:10:21   and price you want, and it's a great place to be.

00:10:25   And it's especially heartening after,

00:10:28   we had so many kind of dark years there in the middle,

00:10:31   and those times are now very, very well behind us,

00:10:35   and it's a great place to be right now.

00:10:37   - Well, I mean, the one bad decision you can make

00:10:39   is if you get the base model of the MacBook Air

00:10:42   or MacBook Pro M2, because the base models

00:10:44   have slow SSDs with single chip,

00:10:46   and it's probably not that big a deal,

00:10:49   but you should probably get a bigger SSD anyway,

00:10:51   So that's the bad decision you can make.

00:10:53   Don't get ones with 256 gigs of storage

00:10:56   for multiple reasons, but in particular

00:10:58   on this round of things because it is slower.

00:11:00   - I mean, it is, but again, I don't think that's a thing,

00:11:04   really, that's gonna matter to almost anybody.

00:11:06   Really, what you will feel is running out of space.

00:11:10   So the real reason you shouldn't get 256

00:11:12   is that it's just not enough space for comfortable use.

00:11:14   Get 512, and if you can't afford 512,

00:11:17   either wait until you can or get the M1 MacBook Air

00:11:20   because it's still for sale, with that having 512.

00:11:22   - I mean, the M1 MacBook Air is the problem here.

00:11:24   It was like, if you, let's say you have an M1 MacBook Air

00:11:26   and you wanna get an M2 because one is more than two,

00:11:28   or two is more than one, maybe.

00:11:30   (laughing)

00:11:31   And you wanna do that upgrade.

00:11:32   Well, if you get that upgrade and you make the mistake

00:11:34   of getting the base model, it could be that some things

00:11:36   that you do are actually slower on your fancy new computer,

00:11:38   and that's a bummer.

00:11:39   So, you know, it doesn't matter to the general public,

00:11:41   but if you're going M1 MacBook Air to M2 MacBook Air,

00:11:43   continue to be aware, do not buy the base model.

00:11:46   It's too little storage, and the storage is slow,

00:11:48   and they may affect your performance

00:11:50   if you do anything that is somewhat governed

00:11:53   by the SSD speed.

00:11:54   - Yeah.

00:11:55   - So going back up the stack, down the stack, whatever,

00:11:58   across the stack, you went to two, not one, but two,

00:12:01   count them, two Phish concerts over the last couple of weeks.

00:12:04   Was this, were both of these in Jones Beach?

00:12:06   - You're forgetting, I also DFU restored my 14 inch.

00:12:09   - Oh yeah, that's right, I forgot about that.

00:12:10   - That's quite an experience.

00:12:12   So for those of you who don't know the details

00:12:14   of all this stuff, so at some point you might have had

00:12:17   to do this to an iPhone or an iPad.

00:12:19   So there's this process called DFU,

00:12:20   extension for device firmware update.

00:12:22   And this is one of the things where if the OS

00:12:24   on your iPhone or iPad gets really hosed,

00:12:28   like to the point where like it's just,

00:12:30   there's a major problem, it can't boot up

00:12:33   and get updates or whatever,

00:12:34   or where a more common reason you might have seen this

00:12:36   is if you ever wanna downgrade from a beta

00:12:39   back to the previous OS release.

00:12:41   The way you have to do this is you have to put the phone

00:12:44   in this special DFU mode, which basically involves like,

00:12:46   you hold down the power button for a long time

00:12:48   and then the screen turns black and it shows up,

00:12:52   you have to connect it to a Mac and it shows up

00:12:54   in the iTunes kind of interface and it says,

00:12:57   this device is in firmware restore mode

00:13:00   and you have to tell it to restore an update

00:13:02   and the computer controls the whole thing.

00:13:04   Well, the way that you can restore M1 and M2 based Macs,

00:13:09   they basically have that exact same process

00:13:12   available on them.

00:13:12   Now this isn't the only way you need to restore them

00:13:15   But the issues I was having with my 14 inch

00:13:19   were so weird and seemed like it might be

00:13:21   some kind of possibly like, you know,

00:13:23   firmware level problems that I was having

00:13:25   with some component of it maybe,

00:13:27   I decided let me restore this in the most,

00:13:30   to use a force realism, the most blow away way

00:13:33   that I possibly can.

00:13:35   So I looked up, you know, how to do this

00:13:37   and the process is hilarious because it basically

00:13:40   comes down to like, you know, you turn it off,

00:13:42   connect it to another computer, like to another Mac

00:13:45   with a USB cable and then you turn it on,

00:13:48   holding down these keys and then holding the power button

00:13:49   for a certain amount of time and you do the sequence

00:13:51   with holding down buttons for a long time

00:13:53   and then your laptop pops up as a DFU mode thing

00:13:58   in the other computer you connected it to.

00:14:00   So it's like a giant iPhone that you're restoring.

00:14:03   The process is very, very similar

00:14:05   and it actually worked surprisingly easily and well

00:14:09   and so far, I've only had it this way for about a week

00:14:13   but it seems like my problems may have been solved.

00:14:17   Now, I was having two recent major problems.

00:14:20   One was that I would plug it in sometimes

00:14:24   and sometimes it wouldn't accept a charge

00:14:26   from either MagSafe or USB-C

00:14:29   until I shut it down and restarted it.

00:14:32   That was a fairly recent thing.

00:14:34   That seems to have been a software problem

00:14:36   introduced in Mac OS 12.4

00:14:39   that seems to be fixed in Mac OS 12.5,

00:14:42   which came out recently.

00:14:43   So I've heard from a lot of people who had this issue,

00:14:46   if you had this issue where your computer,

00:14:48   or your recent MacBook Pro wouldn't accept a charge

00:14:51   until you shut it down, update to 12.5

00:14:54   and that seems to be fixing this problem for everybody.

00:14:57   So good luck with that.

00:14:59   It has fixed it for me so far.

00:15:01   But again, it's only been a week.

00:15:02   And then my other problem was it would

00:15:04   kind of not receive FaceTime calls and other weird stuff

00:15:08   until it would restart it and it would work

00:15:09   for a little while and then it would

00:15:10   stop receiving stuff again.

00:15:12   So far, that has been fixed as well,

00:15:14   since I did the DFU blow away thing.

00:15:16   So we'll see if that continues,

00:15:18   but so far, so good on that.

00:15:20   So that's it, it's restored, it's done.

00:15:22   And the restore process, by the way,

00:15:23   what I did was I just created a whole time machine

00:15:26   back up to a USB drive, did the whole restore,

00:15:29   had it restore from the time machine back up.

00:15:31   So I didn't have to reinstall anything.

00:15:32   It brought over all the passwords and everything.

00:15:34   I didn't have to reset up anything.

00:15:36   Everything transferred properly

00:15:37   with that time machine round trip situation.

00:15:40   And so far it's fixed.

00:15:42   So I'm very happy about that so far.

00:15:44   - Speaking of weird iPhone things

00:15:45   that you do with your computer,

00:15:47   when I got the M2 MacBook Air, I was setting it up

00:15:50   and I was using Migration Assistant,

00:15:51   I think we've talked about this before,

00:15:53   how great that program is and how it transfers everything,

00:15:55   how you can change transport method while it's running.

00:15:58   And I did that.

00:16:00   I mean, I connected the two things together

00:16:02   with a Thunderbolt cable

00:16:04   that I'm pretty sure was a Thunderbolt 3 cable

00:16:06   'cause I think it came with like a Thunderbolt 3 peripheral

00:16:10   that I bought or whatever.

00:16:11   And I plugged it in and I saw the M2 change its connection

00:16:16   and it said this connection has been sampled

00:16:18   to transfer whatever umpteen gigabits per second

00:16:22   that it lists for Thunderbolt.

00:16:23   No, it's great, that's gonna work great.

00:16:25   And then the donor machine, the M1 Macbook Air was saying

00:16:29   like preparing documents and something or other, right?

00:16:33   And it sat on that preparing step for a really long time.

00:16:37   And I'm like, ah, give it a while.

00:16:38   So I gave it like two hours, came back,

00:16:39   it was still in that repairing step.

00:16:40   I'm like, okay, this can't possibly be right.

00:16:43   I'm going from an M1 MacBook Air to an M2 MacBook Air.

00:16:45   They're both pretty fast.

00:16:47   They don't have much stuff on them.

00:16:48   This should progress.

00:16:50   And I noticed that the M1 had a disagreement with the M2

00:16:53   about how they were connected.

00:16:54   The M2 said we're connected by a Thunderbolt

00:16:56   and the M1 said we're connected by Ethernet.

00:16:58   There was no Ethernet involved.

00:16:59   There's no Ethernet involved anywhere in this thing.

00:17:02   And so eventually I just had to give up and cancel

00:17:04   and say, no, stop.

00:17:06   That was a little bit tricky 'cause once you cancel,

00:17:08   the M2 MacBook Air wants to continue

00:17:11   through the setup process.

00:17:13   Like I'm like, you know, do you want to transfer anything?

00:17:14   No, I canceled the migration.

00:17:16   It's like, okay, well let's keep setting this up.

00:17:17   Like, no, no, I don't want to set up.

00:17:19   And eventually I found some way to go backwards

00:17:22   instead of forward, 'cause it just kept bouncing me forward

00:17:24   to, you know, make a user account, do all this stuff.

00:17:27   Like, no, no, I don't want to do any of that.

00:17:28   I think I just restarted or whatever.

00:17:30   Anyway, second time it worked, but just FYI,

00:17:32   if you're ever, 'cause I Googled this while I was waiting,

00:17:35   if you're ever doing a migration

00:17:37   and it seems like it's stuck on some kind of step,

00:17:40   there's no progress bar and it's preparing

00:17:41   to do something for hours and hours,

00:17:43   it's tough for me to say,

00:17:46   "Oh, it's probably not gonna progress."

00:17:48   You just kinda have to know,

00:17:49   are there 17 million files in this

00:17:53   and preparing should take three hours

00:17:55   and I have to wait it out?

00:17:56   Is it like Casey's Synology where,

00:17:58   what was it, like resilvering the drive

00:17:59   or migrating the content took some obscene amount of time

00:18:03   'cause that's just how long it's gonna take?

00:18:05   You have to kind of know in your gut,

00:18:06   like back in the envelope, like is this a reasonable amount

00:18:09   of time for the job that it's doing?

00:18:11   Because you don't want to be like, well I waited two hours

00:18:12   and if it hasn't progressed in two hours,

00:18:14   I need to just, you know, cut it off and pull the plug.

00:18:17   That might not be true.

00:18:18   You'll never successfully do the thing

00:18:20   if the thing is gonna take actually eight hours

00:18:22   to get through the preparing step.

00:18:24   But this felt like it shouldn't take two hours

00:18:27   to do the preparing step, so I did a second try.

00:18:29   And lo and behold, on the second try,

00:18:30   everything went way fast, the preparing step was over

00:18:33   in mere minutes and it transferred all the data

00:18:34   and everything worked fine.

00:18:35   So word to the wise there.

00:18:37   And also it is possible to opt out of a migration,

00:18:42   to cancel a migration job and not continue with the setup.

00:18:47   Like what I didn't want to happen was,

00:18:49   oh, continue with the setup and make a user account.

00:18:51   And this is stupid and probably means nothing

00:18:53   and probably has no effect on migration systems,

00:18:55   but not behind the scenes.

00:18:56   I'm like, oh, but I really want my son's account

00:18:58   to be UID 501 or whatever,

00:19:00   like the first number that it fixed.

00:19:01   You know what I mean?

00:19:02   (laughing)

00:19:03   'Cause it's his laptop.

00:19:05   - And if I make a new user account, like a temporary one,

00:19:10   and then when migration assistant runs,

00:19:11   it's gonna pick 502,

00:19:12   and that's just not the way it should be.

00:19:14   - Like an animal.

00:19:15   - Yeah. - Oh my God.

00:19:16   - Anyway, it is possible to just not create any user accounts

00:19:21   and redo the whole thing.

00:19:22   If it didn't, I might have to DFU update.

00:19:24   I think the only time I ever did,

00:19:25   I don't know if it was called DFU update,

00:19:27   it was like, maybe it was one of my T2 based Macs,

00:19:31   or maybe it was a work Mac or whatever.

00:19:32   I use Apple Configurator 2.

00:19:34   Is that the program you use to do the thing?

00:19:35   - Yes.

00:19:37   - Yeah, I love how it's called Apple Configurator.

00:19:39   I don't know what happened to Apple Configurator one

00:19:40   and why two was always in the name.

00:19:41   But anyway, I did that to a T2 Mac and they--

00:19:44   - It was Discovery D.

00:19:45   - Yeah, and they were, it's not in parentheses.

00:19:48   (laughing)

00:19:49   And the T2 Macs were enough like the modern ARM Macs

00:19:53   that this was the process.

00:19:55   I've never had to do it in an ARM Mac

00:19:56   and hopefully I never will, but fingers crossed there.

00:19:59   I have been updating Ventura

00:20:01   on my little external drive here.

00:20:03   and the Ventura Betas supposedly do update

00:20:06   the like Bridge OS version.

00:20:08   So technically when I boot into my old safe Monterey,

00:20:12   I'm using the new version of Bridge OS,

00:20:14   but so far it hasn't hosed.

00:20:15   I don't know, I haven't learned my lesson.

00:20:17   Remember last time when I hosed myself by updating?

00:20:19   Anyway, I do it for the show.

00:20:21   I gotta get the latest Ventura Beta

00:20:23   and get in there and see what's going on.

00:20:26   - We appreciate your sacrifice.

00:20:27   All right, are we finally at fish time?

00:20:29   Because I am curious how you ended up

00:20:32   seeing two concerts in the span of just a week.

00:20:35   - All right, so, Fish, even though no one likes them

00:20:39   except me, they somehow are able to sell out arenas

00:20:42   and stuff really easily, and--

00:20:44   - It's the same 3,000 people, you know.

00:20:47   (laughing)

00:20:48   I mean, you've gone to two concerts,

00:20:49   now you're seeing how it works.

00:20:50   Hmm, if I go to every concert, I become one of the 3,000.

00:20:53   (laughing)

00:20:55   - Anyway, so they were playing here at a local theater,

00:20:59   Jones Beach in the Long Island region.

00:21:03   I don't think it's actually on Long Island

00:21:04   'cause I think it's on Cap Tree Island

00:21:07   or Jones Beach Island, anyway.

00:21:09   It's not on Long Island for whatever it's worth,

00:21:11   it's a different island.

00:21:12   (laughing)

00:21:13   But anyway, they were playing two nights in a row there.

00:21:16   And when Fish plays in,

00:21:20   when they play multiple nights in one location,

00:21:23   they don't repeat songs between those two nights.

00:21:24   Like the two shows will be 100% different from each other

00:21:27   in like what songs they play.

00:21:29   Not to mention the fact that they're a jam band,

00:21:30   so even if they would play the same song,

00:21:32   it would be pretty different both times,

00:21:33   but ignoring that fact, they always play different stuff

00:21:38   on different nights in the same place.

00:21:40   And I'd gone to two shows previously,

00:21:43   one last year and one like 10 years ago.

00:21:45   And in both of those shows, they were decent,

00:21:50   but I didn't get a lot of my favorites played.

00:21:53   And I thought, well, here I'm gonna be going to,

00:21:56   'cause each of those that I went to before,

00:21:58   Those were each three night runs

00:22:00   that I was going to the middle night of.

00:22:03   Well, this time I was going to two nights in a row

00:22:07   of a two night run.

00:22:09   So I figured my odds of hearing my favorite songs,

00:22:12   or at least some of them, are way higher if I do that.

00:22:15   So let's do it, what the heck?

00:22:17   Let me see what it's like.

00:22:18   I've never been to two concerts in a row,

00:22:19   like two days right in a row.

00:22:22   Never done that.

00:22:24   Never been to Jones Beach at all anyway,

00:22:26   and I heard it was a great venue.

00:22:27   Tiff went there when she was younger and she loved it and everyone else said it's a great

00:22:31   venue so...

00:22:32   It is a great venue.

00:22:33   I thought, "Let's do it, what the heck?"

00:22:34   It wasn't that expensive and, you know, when I was arranging logistics, because there's

00:22:38   a question of like, "How do you get from Fire Island to Jones Beach?"

00:22:42   Yes, I asked you this in Slack and you ignored me, I guess, for this very moment.

00:22:46   It looks like you could just kind of take a boat and just zip over.

00:22:52   And theoretically one could do that and in fact I asked the water taxi company, "Hey,

00:22:56   Can we just get a boat like all the way there?

00:22:58   And the answer is yes, we could,

00:23:01   except there's apparently a five mile an hour speed limit

00:23:03   most of the way and it would take like three hours.

00:23:05   - Oh cool.

00:23:06   - So not an option anybody would actually want to do.

00:23:08   And you can't drive there because A,

00:23:13   you would have to drive over part of Fire Island,

00:23:14   which you can't really do,

00:23:15   and B, you really can't do it in the summertime.

00:23:17   So even people with driving permits

00:23:20   cannot drive on the island in the summer

00:23:21   'cause there's too many people everywhere.

00:23:24   So anyway, the way you get to Jones Beach from Fire Island

00:23:27   is you have to take the ferry from Fire Island

00:23:30   back to Long Island, that's a half hour on the boat,

00:23:34   then have somebody, you or a car service,

00:23:37   somebody drive you from there to the concert venue.

00:23:40   Then eventually drive back from the concert venue

00:23:43   back to the ferry terminal, but oops, it's too late

00:23:45   because you get back at like 1230 at night

00:23:47   and there's no more ferries.

00:23:48   Then you just take a water taxi back to Fire Island.

00:23:51   (laughing)

00:23:52   So that's how you get there.

00:23:54   And anyway, so when I was scheduling all that stuff,

00:23:57   I just scheduled it to do two nights in a row.

00:23:59   I'm like, hey, can you do this Tuesday and Wednesday night

00:24:01   please at the exact same time?

00:24:02   Yes, okay, good.

00:24:04   So it was great.

00:24:05   And I was very pleased.

00:24:07   The two shows I saw, I think were very good shows.

00:24:12   And I'm still in the process of listening back

00:24:14   and kind of judging them with some distance

00:24:16   compared to my previous shows,

00:24:18   but I think they were my favorite shows that I've been to

00:24:21   by a pretty big margin.

00:24:23   They were great performances, this is a great tour,

00:24:25   this is a great part of the tour,

00:24:27   and my plan of seeing both nights of a two-night run

00:24:31   did pay off, I did hear a lot of my favorite songs,

00:24:33   and especially many that I hadn't heard

00:24:35   in the previous two shows that I went to.

00:24:37   - Good.

00:24:38   - Yeah, so it was a great success.

00:24:39   I'm now getting more accustomed to it.

00:24:41   This was also, I was very impressed

00:24:45   by Jones Beach as a venue.

00:24:46   Like, I got kinda like the expensive old man seats,

00:24:50   but in this case they were actually very good

00:24:52   because they were very central,

00:24:54   but it was like you had these little like boxes

00:24:56   you could just walk out of and like walk down

00:24:59   this open aisle to like this limited bathroom area

00:25:02   and stuff so it was very convenient

00:25:03   for like what old people actually want

00:25:04   which is like I want a good amount of space around me

00:25:06   and I want to be able to get in and out quickly

00:25:08   and I need easy access to a bathroom.

00:25:10   So it was great for all those things.

00:25:13   So I was very, very happy about that.

00:25:15   - I know why Billy Joel takes a helicopter.

00:25:18   - To the bathroom?

00:25:19   No, so to get to and from his Long Island home

00:25:23   to Madison Square Garden.

00:25:24   You read that article?

00:25:25   Oh.

00:25:25   He flies out to Madison Square Garden for his concert.

00:25:28   He's a helicopter.

00:25:28   He sings his song, makes whatever million dollars,

00:25:31   and goes back on the helicopter to his house.

00:25:33   None of that surprises me.

00:25:34   I hadn't heard that, but I'm not surprised at all.

00:25:36   Because you can imagine, like, if you're out there

00:25:37   and you're a Long Island beach house,

00:25:39   and you want to get to Madison Square Garden

00:25:40   and back for one night--

00:25:41   Oh, forget it.

00:25:42   Yeah.

00:25:42   Geographically, you look like, oh, that doesn't seem that bad.

00:25:45   But logistics-wise, even if you have someone driving you

00:25:48   in a fancy car or whatever.

00:25:49   It's just a nightmare, but the helicopter's zoop real quick.

00:25:52   - So how long did it take just ballpark to get there

00:25:56   and then later to get home?

00:25:58   - If I include the time on the water

00:26:00   and then walking back to my house from the boat.

00:26:02   (laughs)

00:26:03   Let me see, probably-- - Like door to door.

00:26:05   - Yeah, like 30 there, 40-ish there.

00:26:09   Yeah, about an hour and a half each way.

00:26:10   - I mean, that's not a short evening,

00:26:13   but it's not a completely egregious trip.

00:26:16   - No, it really wasn't that bad.

00:26:18   - If you'll allow me, who did you go with?

00:26:22   - I went with two different groups of people

00:26:23   because I don't know anybody in my friend groups here

00:26:27   who liked them enough to go to two nights in a row.

00:26:30   So--

00:26:32   - Can I just tell you for the record?

00:26:33   - Yeah.

00:26:34   - I do not think I would actively enjoy a fish concert,

00:26:38   but if we lived closer,

00:26:39   I would absolutely go to one with you.

00:26:41   And maybe I would enjoy it, maybe I wouldn't,

00:26:42   but I would go to one for sure.

00:26:44   I mean, come on, you know, you gotta try it.

00:26:45   But anyway, so who did you go with?

00:26:47   Anyone that we would know?

00:26:49   - Yeah, so night one I went with some local guy friends.

00:26:52   And I told them, I'm like,

00:26:53   "Look, don't listen to Phish beforehand."

00:26:55   'Cause they were both familiar with them in a concept,

00:26:57   but they hadn't been to a concert.

00:26:58   I'm like, "Look, don't listen beforehand."

00:27:00   So I'm like, "I know what's gonna happen.

00:27:01   "You're gonna listen, you're gonna realize you hate them,

00:27:03   "and then you're gonna cancel."

00:27:04   (laughing)

00:27:05   So don't, just don't listen beforehand.

00:27:07   But fortunately, they both liked it.

00:27:10   I don't know if they liked it.

00:27:11   They certainly, I don't think,

00:27:12   would have gone for two nights in a row,

00:27:13   but they both liked it.

00:27:14   and then the second night Tiff joined me

00:27:17   with another friend as well.

00:27:19   So Tiff even volunteered to come with me

00:27:23   for one of the nights and had a good time.

00:27:27   - See, that's what I'm saying.

00:27:28   I bet, you know, it's like, as an example,

00:27:30   I really don't care for baseball.

00:27:32   It's just not my thing.

00:27:32   I'm not saying it's bad, it's just not my thing.

00:27:34   But going to an actual baseball game

00:27:37   is an entirely different experience

00:27:39   that is quite delightful.

00:27:40   I would never seek out fish or a fish concert,

00:27:43   I bet you I'd have a great time at a Fish concert,

00:27:45   'cause why, how can you not?

00:27:46   It's live music, it's hard to have a bad time at live music.

00:27:48   And I am very pleased that Tiff seems

00:27:51   to have had an okay time.

00:27:52   - Yeah, and that's, I feel the exact same way.

00:27:54   Like, I've, I'm not a sports person, as you all know.

00:27:57   However, and I would never choose to watch sports on TV,

00:28:01   or follow what's going on in sports,

00:28:03   like on the internet or anything.

00:28:04   However, if my friends are going to a sports game

00:28:07   and they invite me to go with them,

00:28:09   and the logistics can work, I will say yes.

00:28:11   because I actually like live events sometimes

00:28:15   and it's a totally different experience

00:28:18   when you are there live, like in the sports circle,

00:28:21   cheering on with all the other people

00:28:22   about the sports teams, like that's all great

00:28:25   and it's a big group energy experience

00:28:28   and you pay attention, you get into it,

00:28:30   eat the crappy food for the thousand dollars.

00:28:32   Like it's the whole experience and I get the appeal of that

00:28:36   even if it's an activity or a band or whatever

00:28:40   that I wouldn't normally get that into

00:28:41   or follow outside of that experience.

00:28:44   So yeah, so most people don't listen to fish

00:28:48   as much as I do when they're just working

00:28:50   throughout their day, but if you bring most people

00:28:53   to a fish concert and you provide them

00:28:55   with enough chemicals to make their brain happy,

00:28:58   they will usually enjoy it. (laughs)

00:29:00   And there's a whole lot of people who listen,

00:29:03   some of my friends are on it, I'll be playing fish

00:29:05   and they'll be like, yeah, I would like this

00:29:07   if I was high right now, but not now.

00:29:09   (laughs)

00:29:10   And like, okay, I understand that.

00:29:11   If that's, you know, you don't have to like them

00:29:14   as much as I do in order to enjoy them

00:29:16   in that kind of context.

00:29:17   But, you know, I happen to like them so much

00:29:19   that I wanna listen to it all the time.

00:29:21   - Yeah, and so since Tiff volunteered

00:29:24   to go to a fish show with you, quid pro quo Clarice,

00:29:28   what are you gonna do now?

00:29:30   - I hope it doesn't come up.

00:29:31   I offered to go to the Her Dave Matthews Show

00:29:33   with her earlier this summer.

00:29:35   - Oh, yeah, but she was smart and said no.

00:29:37   - Well, yeah, fortunately there were enough other people

00:29:40   in that group that my company was not required.

00:29:43   But I would, look, I would do it, and you know what?

00:29:47   I don't like Dave Matthews, but again,

00:29:49   I would probably be fine at the concert.

00:29:52   I can't guarantee that I would love it,

00:29:54   but I would at least enjoy myself at a concert.

00:29:57   - Yeah, and that's how I feel about Phish.

00:29:58   Like, I don't know if I would go leave the event saying,

00:30:02   holy crap, that was the night of my life.

00:30:04   But it is okay to go somewhere, experience something,

00:30:07   and say, that was fun.

00:30:08   Maybe not something I wanna do every day,

00:30:10   but that was fun.

00:30:11   - Yeah, you probably wouldn't buy the poster.

00:30:12   (upbeat music)

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00:32:06   - Oh my word, well we have had an eventful couple of weeks

00:32:11   for nothing going on in the world.

00:32:14   So we actually don't have all that much follow up this week,

00:32:18   which is extremely surprising to me.

00:32:19   We could have recordings that are like two days apart

00:32:23   because of odd scheduling conflicts or whatever,

00:32:24   and have a mountain of follow up.

00:32:26   We've had two weeks and we have almost no follow up,

00:32:28   but let's power through.

00:32:29   - Everyone's on vacation, that's fine.

00:32:31   - Yeah, we're always on vacation in California.

00:32:33   But anyways, Fletcher O'Connor's custom domain email.

00:32:36   This was an Australian fellow that wanted to do, you know,

00:32:39   some sort of custom domain for his email.

00:32:41   And we were trying to figure out

00:32:42   what can you do about that?

00:32:43   And Mark Voss writes that the .au domain

00:32:48   is now available for registration.

00:32:49   And that namespace is not well polluted yet.

00:32:53   Brendan Reagan writes, there's also .id.au.

00:32:56   However, there are some rules there.

00:32:57   To use that, you must A, match a person's legal name,

00:33:01   first name or family name.

00:33:02   B, have an acronym or abbreviation of the person's

00:33:05   legal name, first name or family name,

00:33:06   or C, be a nickname of the person.

00:33:08   It seems kind of flimsy to me. - Wait, hold on.

00:33:10   - This seems super flimsy, but that's the rules.

00:33:12   - A nickname, that could be a lot of things.

00:33:14   - Yeah, but here we are.

00:33:17   And a lot of people wrote in and said,

00:33:18   and I'm making up the specifics here,

00:33:20   but oh, I am, you know, kclist.email or whatever,

00:33:24   and apparently a lot of those weird top-level domains,

00:33:28   like .email, for example, they can cause real big

00:33:31   validation problems with forms, like online forms

00:33:33   that aren't the best or aren't the most modern

00:33:36   at doing validation.

00:33:37   So using .email, I'm not even sure if that's a thing,

00:33:40   I presume it is, using .email or an equivalent

00:33:43   can be not so great because you might end up

00:33:45   having to have a different alias that's at .com or something

00:33:49   in order to just pass through form validation.

00:33:52   - Yeah, that's one of the worst problems

00:33:53   you can run into because at that moment,

00:33:55   you wanna sign up for the thing,

00:33:57   you wanna create an account on the system or whatever,

00:33:59   and it says, please enter a valid email address.

00:34:02   Assuming it's not trivial client-side validation,

00:34:07   let's say you're not a web developer,

00:34:09   assuming you can't get around it, what do you do then?

00:34:12   You either have to have another address,

00:34:14   like I said, I have another,

00:34:16   what's the point of having your own domain

00:34:17   if you have to have this second email address?

00:34:19   Anyway, that's a mess.

00:34:20   Or you're in the position where you're trying

00:34:23   to contact the website somehow, get to a human,

00:34:26   to say, hey, I'm trying to sign up

00:34:28   for an account on your website,

00:34:29   and it tells me my email address is not valued,

00:34:31   but I assure you it is, I'm emailing you from it right now.

00:34:34   That's like-- - Good luck with that.

00:34:37   - Yeah, that's a super advanced level

00:34:39   of corporate bureaucracy penetration.

00:34:41   Trying to get to a human

00:34:42   who is going to answer that question,

00:34:44   there's no good website for that.

00:34:47   Like, if you're trying to do a google.com,

00:34:49   some Google property, forget it,

00:34:50   you're never gonna get a human.

00:34:51   And if you're trying to do some dinky little website

00:34:53   that was made, you know, seven years ago by a teenager

00:34:56   who has since moved on, you're not gonna get through that.

00:34:57   Like there's no situation where I can imagine

00:34:59   that going smoothly.

00:35:00   And then you're just like,

00:35:01   well I can't create an account of this thing.

00:35:03   And it just makes you feel so bad about your, you know,

00:35:06   your fancy custom domain that you were so happy about.

00:35:08   Two seconds, I'm gonna have one address

00:35:10   and it's gonna be a domain that I own

00:35:11   and I'm gonna unify on and I'm gonna own my identity

00:35:13   and I can't use it.

00:35:14   Even if you can't use it on just two places,

00:35:16   it really sucks.

00:35:18   So please, people, fix your form.

00:35:20   I mean, I don't know why I'm even saying this,

00:35:21   we're still, how many decades into the web,

00:35:24   we're still in a situation where they say,

00:35:25   oh, enter your phone number here.

00:35:27   Don't enter hyphens, we can't handle that.

00:35:28   It's like, just remove the hyphens!

00:35:31   Oh my God, that's still a thing.

00:35:32   And every time I see that, I'm like, really?

00:35:34   2022, please enter digits only?

00:35:37   Really?

00:35:38   Absolutely boggles my mind.

00:35:41   I mean, people who aren't programmers,

00:35:42   maybe think that's just normal or whatever,

00:35:43   but there never was a reason for that,

00:35:45   and there continues to not be a reason for it,

00:35:47   and yet it still exists.

00:35:48   - Hey, by the way, have you noticed,

00:35:51   I keep noticing this, I've occasionally recently signed up

00:35:55   for some new website or whatever,

00:35:57   using the Sign in with Apple option

00:35:59   where it can hide your email address,

00:36:01   where it sets up a forwarding alias

00:36:03   and then it forwards to your real address.

00:36:05   In, I think I've done this three times in the last few months

00:36:08   and in all cases, all three times,

00:36:11   right after the sign up form,

00:36:13   the website has kicked me to a secondary form

00:36:15   where it's like, all right, what's your real email address?

00:36:17   - Oh, really?

00:36:18   - And it won't let me proceed

00:36:19   until I give it an actual email address

00:36:21   that's not the relay one.

00:36:22   It's like, well then what the heck did I just do that for?

00:36:23   Like what's the point of all this stuff?

00:36:25   Now they have two of my email addresses

00:36:27   and I lose the, and now I have to figure out

00:36:30   how do I ever log in here again?

00:36:31   Like it's just, leave it up to the web to ruin everything.

00:36:36   - Everything.

00:36:37   - Speaking of ruining everything

00:36:38   and web authentication and accounts,

00:36:40   it's one of the things that struck me

00:36:42   about the various passkey demos that Apple did at WWDC,

00:36:46   right, 'cause they're showing the cool passkey things

00:36:48   they were placing for passwords or whatever.

00:36:50   And I think in all the demos that I've ever seen,

00:36:53   They have a sample, a toy app,

00:36:55   just to show what the authentication flow looks like.

00:36:58   Since you don't have to pick a password,

00:37:01   there is no account creation screen where they say,

00:37:03   enter your password and then confirm to enter the password.

00:37:05   That doesn't exist anymore.

00:37:07   But there is still a place,

00:37:09   at least in this demo application,

00:37:11   where it says, enter, and they have on the demo,

00:37:14   enter a username.

00:37:15   And as we've discussed on past shows,

00:37:17   no one should ever be prompted to enter a username.

00:37:20   a username as in something that's not an email address,

00:37:23   or maybe it is an email address.

00:37:25   It's that situation where it's like,

00:37:27   your username could be an email address,

00:37:29   but it might not be, or it has to be an email address.

00:37:30   But anyway, in the bad old days,

00:37:32   they made you pick usernames,

00:37:34   since you'd have to be like JSmith1234,

00:37:36   you'd have to remember that you were JSmith1234,

00:37:39   but if you forgot your username,

00:37:41   the forgot password flow,

00:37:42   they also had a forgot username flow

00:37:44   where you'd put your email address.

00:37:45   It's like, just use the email address as the username.

00:37:47   Almost everybody got on that page,

00:37:48   but still occasionally you have to pick a username.

00:37:50   So anyway, in the Paskey thing, the demo they show,

00:37:53   they keep showing enter a username,

00:37:54   and the people would enter like a username

00:37:55   with like their first name, space, last name.

00:37:57   It reminds me of the original Apple ID system,

00:37:59   where your Apple ID could be capital J, John,

00:38:03   capital S, Smith, with a space between them.

00:38:06   That could be your Apple ID.

00:38:07   (laughing)

00:38:09   My original Apple ID was not an email address.

00:38:11   It wasn't, you know, my first and last name,

00:38:13   but it wasn't an email address, it was just a string.

00:38:16   It was a username, and eventually Apple forced everyone

00:38:18   to change to email addresses.

00:38:19   So even if we get to the mythical future of pass keys

00:38:22   where no one has to remember passwords anymore

00:38:24   and authentication's great, we still have the problem

00:38:26   of okay, but who are you, right?

00:38:29   Should I enter my email address?

00:38:30   What if I wanna hide my email address?

00:38:32   Like that all still exists, and the thing

00:38:33   that Marco was encountering is like,

00:38:35   oh, so you're signing with Apple

00:38:36   and hiding your email address.

00:38:37   Well, we can detect that you're doing that,

00:38:38   and we don't like it, we want your real email address,

00:38:40   so please enter that here.

00:38:41   You know, people can do whatever they want

00:38:43   on their websites, like their authentication flow

00:38:45   can support whatever features they want it to support,

00:38:47   And if they say, "Hey, you can't get through the flow

00:38:49   "without giving us a real email address

00:38:50   "and we can auto-detect ones that look like

00:38:52   "they're the fake Apple ones,"

00:38:54   then that's what they'll do.

00:38:54   So I do kind of fear that even if we defeat passwords,

00:38:58   the username monster is still out there

00:39:00   waiting to eat us all.

00:39:01   (laughing)

00:39:03   - Well, for what it's worth,

00:39:04   I will bring up Fastmail one more time.

00:39:07   They didn't sponsor this episode,

00:39:08   but hey, I would love some free Fastmail.

00:39:10   - You should put your referral link in the show notes, Casey.

00:39:12   - I should put my referral link in the show notes.

00:39:14   - I feel like I should have a referral link

00:39:15   for someday when I go off Gmail.

00:39:16   (laughing)

00:39:19   But anyways, they do a similar like massed email thing.

00:39:21   And I will admit, it's not as straightforward

00:39:24   as the way it works with Apple,

00:39:25   where you just say,

00:39:26   "Yes, I would like a massed email right now, please."

00:39:29   But it's pretty straightforward to do it on their website.

00:39:32   And that ends up giving you just like two random words

00:39:37   that, and I think a numeral that you use as an email address,

00:39:41   but it's at your domain.

00:39:43   So it's like two random words,

00:39:44   with a couple numbers @caseylist.com.

00:39:46   And that's a lot less obvious, I suspect,

00:39:49   to a vendor or whatever, to a website,

00:39:52   than the Apple alias that basically everyone is sharing,

00:39:55   or the same Apple alias format that everyone is sharing.

00:39:59   So as an example, like one of them on mine

00:40:02   is like fuzzy.koala1234, basically,

00:40:05   you know, or something like that.

00:40:06   - And then you can never remember what that is,

00:40:07   if you ever have to go through

00:40:08   the forgot password flow, right?

00:40:10   - That's true, but first of all,

00:40:11   I have all this in one password.

00:40:13   And second of all, they have a, not a dashboard,

00:40:14   They have a page in settings where you can look at all of them and it tells you whether

00:40:19   or not they're active, when the last message was, three months ago, two months ago, yesterday,

00:40:23   et cetera, and then you can go in and edit it and so on.

00:40:25   So it really, really is pretty slick.

00:40:28   So I will put my referral code in the show notes, but it's www.caseless.com/fastmail.

00:40:34   Just for you, just to make it nice and easy.

00:40:38   >> Make that URL shorter if you get off the triple W dot.

00:40:41   >> Oh, would you stop?

00:40:42   I don't want to hear it, Dad.

00:40:43   Leave me alone.

00:40:44   Oh, you stop it. I'm an old man. What do you expect from me? Anyway, moving right along,

00:40:50   Chris Church writes with regard to BMW subscriptions, "If you paid 400" – this is pounds, that's

00:40:57   fake money, right? That's not real, is it? It's weight. Anyway, "If you paid 400 bucks

00:41:01   for heated seats at time of purchase, you would not need to pay a subscription to use

00:41:05   them." BMW said this on the BBC, "Where heated seats or any feature available in the

00:41:10   the connected drive store have been purchased

00:41:11   when a customer vehicle is ordered,

00:41:13   no subsequent subscription or payment is necessary."

00:41:16   The subscription model enables customers

00:41:18   to try these features later as opposed to paying upfront.

00:41:20   This means that the hardware to facilitate these features

00:41:22   will be built into all models,

00:41:23   which makes sense from a manufacturing perspective

00:41:25   as it makes for fewer hardware configurations.

00:41:28   I still really wanna hate all of this,

00:41:30   but it does make a little bit of sense to me.

00:41:34   - Only for features that they can build in,

00:41:37   like eating the cost.

00:41:38   Like again, they're not gonna build in the V8

00:41:39   when you pay for the V6 and you unlock the two cylinders,

00:41:42   so that doesn't make any monetary sense.

00:41:44   Apparently, seat heaters are cheap enough to include

00:41:46   that it doesn't really add an impact,

00:41:47   but for example, leather seats is not something like that.

00:41:52   They put cloth over it, and if you pay extra,

00:41:54   you can rip the cloth off underneath this leather.

00:41:56   There's a narrow window of features that can work like that.

00:42:00   I'm still not quite sure how it works

00:42:03   in terms of reselling,

00:42:05   and not having to pay for it upfront

00:42:08   makes it feel a little bit better,

00:42:09   But then I almost feel like, okay, well,

00:42:11   if you want me to unlock it later,

00:42:13   can't I just do the same thing as I would have done

00:42:15   when I purchased it, as opposed to paying

00:42:17   $12 a month forever so my steering wheel can be warm?

00:42:22   I mean, maybe, again, due to the math,

00:42:24   but I just feel like even if the math works out

00:42:26   that it is actually less expensive to do that

00:42:27   than to pay $400 for the heating steering wheel,

00:42:29   it just feels worse to pay $12 a month

00:42:31   for your heated steering wheel,

00:42:32   which is separate from the $18 a month for a heated butt.

00:42:35   - But the other nice thing about this is,

00:42:37   So I buy presumably a white BMW and I decide I want to sell it to one of you knuckleheads.

00:42:45   Well, that would never happen for many reasons, one of which being it being white.

00:42:49   But nevertheless, in this fantasy world, can you imagine selling a car to John?

00:42:52   No.

00:42:53   Oh my God.

00:42:54   No, I would.

00:42:55   I don't need any more oil stains in my driveway.

00:42:56   Thanks.

00:42:57   No BMWs here.

00:42:58   Oh, too soon.

00:42:59   Actually, I don't think that ever leaked oil.

00:43:01   That might be the only thing it didn't do.

00:43:02   That's not true.

00:43:03   Your BMW is leaking oil right now.

00:43:05   There is no BMW that doesn't leak oil.

00:43:08   It's one thing you learn from YouTube

00:43:09   and car rebuilding channels, BMW's leak oil

00:43:12   is impossible for BMWs not to leak oil.

00:43:16   - I don't know if it leaked.

00:43:16   They definitely spent oil by fuel.

00:43:18   - I mean, maybe when it's brand new, it's not gonna leak,

00:43:20   but eventually BMWs will get oil leaks.

00:43:22   They leak oil from everywhere.

00:43:24   - I mean, doesn't everything leak eventually

00:43:26   on an infinite time scale?

00:43:27   - I hope I don't.

00:43:29   - No, but I think in the useful lifetime of a car,

00:43:32   it's not a given that all the seals

00:43:34   that are supposed to keep oil in will die

00:43:36   and need to be replaced on like a frequent basis

00:43:39   like they do with BMWs.

00:43:40   It's the reason they have a reputation.

00:43:41   I don't know what it is.

00:43:42   I don't know why their gaskets don't work as well

00:43:44   as other people's or whatever, but there we go.

00:43:48   - Moving on.

00:43:49   If I sold my hypothetical white BMW to anyone,

00:43:51   it doesn't have to be, it doesn't matter who it is,

00:43:53   let's pretend I'm selling it to Marco

00:43:54   because of the two of you, that he's my only hope.

00:43:58   I sell my BMW to Marco and because apparently I live

00:44:01   in a place that doesn't have winter supposedly,

00:44:02   even though that's not true.

00:44:04   I didn't option a heated seats or heated steering wheel,

00:44:08   but Marco living in a place that indisputably has winter,

00:44:11   he would like those things.

00:44:12   Well, what's nice about the setup is he can go

00:44:15   and pay either a one-time fee or a monthly fee or whatever,

00:44:17   and get the heated seats and heated wheel

00:44:19   that I never bothered paying for.

00:44:21   So there is something to be said for this.

00:44:23   I think there is a way you can look at this,

00:44:26   that it's not absolutely disgusting,

00:44:29   but it sure feels a little gross

00:44:31   the way it was originally presented to us.

00:44:33   I don't know.

00:44:34   - Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where like,

00:44:37   some nerd somewhere made a good argument for this

00:44:40   on nerdy principles in the company.

00:44:42   Just like what we're talking about now.

00:44:44   Here are some reasons that kind of academically

00:44:47   seem justifiable, but at no point did anybody

00:44:50   with any kind of like, you know,

00:44:52   read the room kind of sensibilities

00:44:54   get this idea passed then before it went out.

00:44:56   Because, you know, this, yes, there are

00:45:00   Some cases where you can say,

00:45:02   well, that actually would be useful.

00:45:04   But that is so far outnumbered by the negativity,

00:45:09   or outweighed I guess by the negativity

00:45:12   of this getting out in the world in the first place,

00:45:14   and what we talked about last time of like,

00:45:16   it's not a very luxurious experience

00:45:18   that would be on brand with a luxury car company

00:45:21   to feel like you're being nickeled and dimed

00:45:23   for something that you don't have to be.

00:45:24   Now that being said, if the option exists

00:45:26   to pay the 400 bucks up front

00:45:28   and not be nickel and dimed over indefinite time span,

00:45:31   that is better, but this is still, I think,

00:45:34   it's just, this is a PR fumble,

00:45:38   that whatever they're gaining in utility or revenue

00:45:41   is not worth the cost of the PR.

00:45:44   - I do wonder also, I don't know the details of this,

00:45:46   I'm sure we'll find out, but if you pay up front

00:45:48   the $400 for the heated seats,

00:45:50   and then you sell the car to someone,

00:45:52   do the heated seats come with it,

00:45:53   or does that person then need to begin a new subscription

00:45:56   as if the heated seats weren't already in the car

00:45:58   because that heated seat was tied to your purchase

00:46:01   and your identifier, you know what I mean?

00:46:03   The other thing about this is,

00:46:04   like I said, there's a narrow range of features

00:46:07   that this works for,

00:46:07   'cause if they're gonna build it into the car anyway

00:46:09   and just enable it later,

00:46:11   you can do that with stuff that's basically software,

00:46:14   and things that are cheap enough that you can include them

00:46:17   and it's not too expensive, but that's it.

00:46:19   There's tons of, almost all the options

00:46:21   in the options sheet don't fall into that category.

00:46:23   They're the type of thing that someone needs to pay for

00:46:25   and they're not just gonna give you for free

00:46:27   and it's not possible to unlock them.

00:46:29   Better brakes, better wheels, the leather interior,

00:46:31   the wood trim, right?

00:46:33   Even things like that, the nicer headlights,

00:46:35   those are hardware things.

00:46:37   I know Tesla's done it where they've given you

00:46:39   the bigger battery 'cause they couldn't get

00:46:40   the smaller ones in stock and the software

00:46:42   locked out the battery.

00:46:43   You remember when they were doing that with the 3s?

00:46:45   - Yeah, but that's not a common thing.

00:46:47   That's a temporary operational shortage kind of thing.

00:46:50   That's not something that's a feature.

00:46:52   - Right, but it made people cranky about it

00:46:54   because it's like, well, I know you, you know,

00:46:55   I didn't pay for the, you know, 100 kilowatt, whatever.

00:46:59   What are the batteries measured in?

00:47:01   - Yeah, it doesn't matter.

00:47:02   - Yeah, anyway, I didn't pay for the 100.

00:47:03   - Chigawatt.

00:47:04   - Yeah, I paid for the 60,

00:47:06   but I know you had to put 100 in

00:47:07   'cause you didn't have any 60s, but like, whatever.

00:47:10   You know, in some ways, like, well, okay,

00:47:11   well now I'm getting worse mileage.

00:47:14   Now I'm getting less distance on a charge

00:47:16   'cause I'm hauling around this big battery

00:47:17   that I can't use all of, but it doesn't feel good.

00:47:20   This is a story with some person who got the 100,

00:47:23   Look this up, it's really annoying.

00:47:25   What is the unit?

00:47:25   Kilowatt hour, I believe.

00:47:27   - They had the 100 unit, or excuse me,

00:47:29   they had a car with a 60 unit battery,

00:47:31   and because of Tesla, it got replaced

00:47:34   with a 100 unit battery, and at the time,

00:47:37   I guess Tesla did not lock them out,

00:47:39   and I think they was--

00:47:40   - Yeah, there was a mistake on Tesla's part.

00:47:41   They didn't do the lockout.

00:47:42   It's kilowatt hour.

00:47:43   They got the 100 and it wasn't locked out, right?

00:47:45   And so like, oh well, you know, whatever.

00:47:47   A bank makes a mistake in your favor,

00:47:49   collect $200, right? - Yep, yep, yep.

00:47:51   And then this person drove the car like this for some substantial period of time.

00:47:55   And then Tesla realized his mistake and said, "Oh, never mind."

00:47:58   And then the software updated it back down to 60.

00:48:02   And that just doesn't feel good.

00:48:03   Oh, that's a terrible move.

00:48:04   Right.

00:48:05   So this is an example of brand management.

00:48:07   If you want to manage the brand to make people feel good to have a Tesla, if you make this

00:48:12   mistake as Tesla, "Oh, we forgot the software, lock it out," just eat it.

00:48:15   Just let that person have the 100 kilowatt hour battery for the rest of the life of their

00:48:18   car.

00:48:19   but just eat it because the ill will,

00:48:23   even just from that one customer,

00:48:24   the ill will that that customer's gonna feel,

00:48:26   let alone like when the person puts their story on the web

00:48:29   and people talk about it on podcasts or whatever,

00:48:31   it's not worth it.

00:48:31   You already lost the money on that battery.

00:48:34   You already put a bigger battery in there.

00:48:36   That bigger battery costs you more money

00:48:37   and you had to put it in there

00:48:38   because you didn't have any smaller ones.

00:48:40   Just eat it.

00:48:41   Like I don't understand why these companies don't,

00:48:44   like it's not as a policy.

00:48:46   It's the same thing with the Mehears story

00:48:47   as the Apple store.

00:48:48   A good Apple store and a good person in charge

00:48:51   of whoever makes decisions on Apple,

00:48:52   or knows when to just eat it, right?

00:48:54   To just make the customer happy and just eat it.

00:48:56   It's not policy, it's not tell all your friends

00:48:58   you can come in and get this cool thing done.

00:49:00   Tesla will replace your battery

00:49:01   and forget the software cap,

00:49:02   but like, that's not, you're not changing your policy,

00:49:04   but on a one-off basis, no one to just say,

00:49:08   our bad, let's make it right for you.

00:49:11   This is not a new policy,

00:49:12   we're making an exception in your case.

00:49:14   The person will be happy,

00:49:15   and you haven't bankrupted the company

00:49:16   by causing a flood of people to come in

00:49:18   and try to get the batteries replaced.

00:49:20   - Do you remember when Amazon displayed to the world

00:49:25   that they had a remote delete capability for Kindle books

00:49:28   and which book they deleted?

00:49:30   - No, I don't remember this at all.

00:49:31   - This was amazing.

00:49:32   So there was--

00:49:34   - Oh, it was 1994, right?

00:49:35   - Yes. (laughs)

00:49:37   In 2009, Amazon, there was a copyright issue

00:49:40   with the copy of 1984 that they had

00:49:43   and they remote deleted it from Kindle's.

00:49:45   - Oh my gosh.

00:49:46   - Of all books, that one.

00:49:48   - That's why you should always DRM crack all your eBooks.

00:49:52   - We are brought to you this week by Instabug.

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00:51:10   (upbeat music)

00:51:12   Moving right along very, very quickly,

00:51:15   I spoke about last week the Mophie three-in-one charger

00:51:20   thing that I was planning to bring on vacation,

00:51:22   which I did, it worked well.

00:51:24   And I lamented the fact that it's 150 bucks

00:51:26   for each of them.

00:51:27   Steve Stutz, Stutz, Stutz, wrote that you can actually

00:51:31   get these from Zag, which is in contrast

00:51:34   to what Apple says on their website,

00:51:35   which it says only at Apple.

00:51:37   But anyway, you can get it from Zag,

00:51:38   and if you're willing to sign up for their email newsletter,

00:51:40   then you can save a whole bunch of money

00:51:42   and get like a coupon code or whatever

00:51:43   for a whole bunch of percentage off.

00:51:44   So if you're looking to get something,

00:51:47   specifically this three-in-one thing,

00:51:48   I will put a link in the show notes,

00:51:49   you might wanna check that out.

00:51:50   Moving right along, Vern Johnson writes,

00:51:52   "In your most recent episode,

00:51:54   "you talked about EU regulations mandating USB-C

00:51:56   "for all phones and covered it well, thanks.

00:51:58   "What I haven't heard anybody online discuss

00:51:59   "is how this will keep Apple from selling

00:52:01   "fewer expensive previous year models of phones in Europe

00:52:04   "once the requirement goes into effect.

00:52:06   It seems that this might adversely affect consumers by giving them only the choice of

00:52:10   the newest phones that include USB-C. Your thoughts?

00:52:12   I thought it was a very interesting point. I still don't see a way in which this is definitely

00:52:18   going to be the case. Like, I just don't see Apple being coerced into putting USB-C in

00:52:24   iPhones. Now, they may say, "Oh, we have decided now that the iPhone will be USB-C," and mean

00:52:30   but I really don't see them not fighting this

00:52:35   or including like a stupid adapter thing

00:52:37   like they did years ago for I think micro USB.

00:52:39   I don't know, do you see this happening?

00:52:41   - I mean this is flying in the face

00:52:43   of the real Tim Cook doctrine,

00:52:44   which is keep selling the same products

00:52:46   so as long as you possibly can.

00:52:47   But I think, I mean I don't know the details of the law here

00:52:50   but it's plausible that it won't apply to them

00:52:52   because they're not new models, right?

00:52:54   So the thing will be like all new models

00:52:56   introduced after such and such a date.

00:52:58   - That's a good point.

00:52:59   - Interesting thought experiment that changes in regulation

00:53:03   that especially that have to do with hardware

00:53:06   could be written in such a way that it thwarts

00:53:10   Apple's ability to do what it loves to do,

00:53:12   which is make a product and then just continue to sell it

00:53:16   and move it down market, down market, down market

00:53:18   until it becomes the cheapest one to sell.

00:53:20   The same thing, manufacture the same thing for years

00:53:22   and years, it makes sense from a being counter perspective

00:53:25   because you've got really good at building whatever it is,

00:53:27   the iPhone, I was gonna say the iPhone 6,

00:53:30   but that's a little bit too old, but right.

00:53:32   The iPhone 11 or the XR or whatever,

00:53:36   you really get the manufacturing process down,

00:53:38   you got the parts available, the quality is really good,

00:53:40   and you can just keep making that same phone

00:53:42   until it just becomes an unviable product.

00:53:44   And during all those years, it's pure profit

00:53:48   because you've already recouped the cost

00:53:50   of all the tooling and all the other stuff, right?

00:53:54   But if they ever did require some change

00:53:56   that had to be across the entire line,

00:53:59   that would really mess up their strategy.

00:54:00   It would be the old Steve Jobs strategy.

00:54:02   What he loved to do was say,

00:54:03   "We have a new idea," and it's, you know, whatever it is.

00:54:06   It's that our laptops are made of aluminum.

00:54:08   And now, starting today,

00:54:10   the only laptops we'll sell are aluminum.

00:54:12   And those plastic ones, forget it.

00:54:14   We're not gonna continue to sell those

00:54:15   for the last three years.

00:54:15   You're never gonna see them again.

00:54:16   We erased them from our website.

00:54:18   We pulled them off our store shelves.

00:54:19   It's all aluminum.

00:54:21   That is not the way Tim Cook operates,

00:54:23   But I think the EU thing won't affect Apple in that way.

00:54:27   Right, and you also have to figure,

00:54:28   if Apple really sees this as something that is inevitably

00:54:32   coming down in the future, they probably

00:54:35   have some idea of a time scale of when they might really

00:54:38   100% have to commit to it.

00:54:40   And so if the iPhone--

00:54:42   let's see, what are we on?

00:54:43   14 now-- if the iPhone 15 next year comes out,

00:54:47   and that's the one with USB-C, they

00:54:48   might be thinking, all right, well,

00:54:50   we'll start USB-C next year.

00:54:52   And we won't really have to do it for a few years,

00:54:54   so that'll give us enough time for it

00:54:56   to filter through the lineup.

00:54:57   They also might be thinking, you know,

00:54:59   if something happened where the old model of phone

00:55:04   couldn't fill its role as being the cheaper one

00:55:08   for a little while, that's already happened once before.

00:55:11   That happened with the iPhone 5.

00:55:13   And the reason why the iPhone 5C came to be,

00:55:16   or at least one reason the iPhone 5C came to be,

00:55:19   is that the iPhone 5, when it was like the new model,

00:55:22   it had that dark gray color that was like almost black.

00:55:25   And remember it chipped along all the edges

00:55:27   and it really did not age well.

00:55:30   So what we heard from a bunch of different rumor sources

00:55:32   was that one of the reasons the 5C existed

00:55:35   is that that finish on the iPhone 5 was just,

00:55:38   it turned out to be so expensive and not durable enough

00:55:41   that they couldn't use that really effectively

00:55:44   to beat the cheap phone in subsequent years.

00:55:46   So one of the reasons they made the 5C was because

00:55:50   their flagship phone of year X really wasn't gonna be

00:55:54   a good cheap phone in year X plus one and X plus two.

00:55:57   So they just designed a new phone that had cheaper specs

00:56:01   and that was it.

00:56:02   So if they really had to do something like that today,

00:56:05   they could.

00:56:06   Worst case scenario, if there's a mandate,

00:56:08   they have to move everything over to USB-C

00:56:10   in a couple of years, well the iPhone 15,

00:56:13   whatever that comes out with USB-C will have

00:56:15   a certain case design that will accommodate that port,

00:56:18   and they can always just make a cheaper version

00:56:20   of that case design with cheaper guts

00:56:22   and sell that as the new, cheaper model.

00:56:25   So there are different ways around this.

00:56:27   They probably won't need to do any of those things.

00:56:29   They probably can just wait it out

00:56:30   and just wait 'til USB-C flickers throughout the line

00:56:33   and it'll kinda just solve itself.

00:56:35   But they certainly have options if they need them.

00:56:37   - Yeah, I don't think they've forgotten

00:56:38   how to make new products.

00:56:40   They just tend not to do it unless they really have to.

00:56:42   Although the story you're saying about the,

00:56:44   Was that the one with the chamfered edge?

00:56:46   - Yes, it was the first one with the chamfered edge.

00:56:48   - Or as Johnny I would say, what did he say, chamfered?

00:56:51   - Yes. - Instead of chamfered.

00:56:52   Anyway, it reminds me of one of the,

00:56:55   well I don't remember which one,

00:56:56   one of the Johnny I've, like,

00:56:58   Love from Apple divorce articles or whatever,

00:57:01   or maybe it was the Tripp Knuckle book.

00:57:03   Anyway, there was a bit where someone was telling a story

00:57:06   about being in the design studio

00:57:07   and someone was presenting a design

00:57:09   and someone in the meeting brought up

00:57:11   how expensive it would be to manufacture

00:57:14   the design that was being shown.

00:57:16   And they got chastised and got evil looks

00:57:18   from the design group because it was basically like,

00:57:20   under the Johnny Iverzine,

00:57:22   that's just not something you did.

00:57:23   Was like, during the design process,

00:57:25   you didn't bring up unseemly things

00:57:27   like how much it's going to cost to manufacture

00:57:29   or how difficult it would be to do it

00:57:30   with precision and quality control.

00:57:32   And that's how you end up with--

00:57:33   - Why not?

00:57:34   - A thing.

00:57:35   Yeah, and that's how you end up with a phone

00:57:37   which has like that chamfered edge that Johnny really loved

00:57:40   and you talked about it so much in that presentation.

00:57:43   And it turns out to be one of those type of,

00:57:45   I don't know the details, but apparently if this,

00:57:48   one of those manufacturing details that

00:57:50   even after you've been making the phone for a year,

00:57:53   it's still expensive and hard to do.

00:57:54   Like it doesn't, it's not like it was one of those things

00:57:57   where you, oh, we'll get the hang of it,

00:57:59   we get the machine set up right,

00:58:00   and then it's just, we bang them out after that, right?

00:58:03   Or like, no matter how we manufactured,

00:58:05   it's just not durable, whatever the problem may be.

00:58:07   But like, when I read that, I was like,

00:58:09   the idea that you'd be in a design meeting

00:58:12   and someone would bring up something unseemly like money

00:58:15   and they would get, you know, dirty looks.

00:58:17   Like I understand there could be like a brainstorming part

00:58:19   where it's like there's no bad ideas,

00:58:20   let's just talk over this through or whatever,

00:58:21   but I feel like when you say design,

00:58:24   you have to include all the factors.

00:58:26   And you know, two of those big factors

00:58:28   are manufacturability and cost.

00:58:30   I'm not saying they should drive everything,

00:58:32   I'm not saying those should be dominant

00:58:33   otherwise you're just making a bunch of ugly plastic crap

00:58:35   and I would not include the iPhone 5C in that

00:58:37   because the iPhone 5C was an amazing phone

00:58:39   on the outside anyway, the insides were kind of crappy.

00:58:42   But that's the challenge of design.

00:58:44   If you say, okay, well I'm gonna make an amazing thing,

00:58:47   but I don't want anyone to talk to me

00:58:48   about money or manufacturability,

00:58:50   you're not a designer.

00:58:51   And I'm not saying Johnny Ive does that.

00:58:53   Like he does care about manufacturability

00:58:54   and how things will be put together or whatever.

00:58:57   But if that story is to be believed,

00:59:00   the idea that the design group didn't wanna hear

00:59:02   about money in any stage of the design process,

00:59:05   I feel like that's kind of ridiculous,

00:59:07   because we're gonna put diamonds along all the outside

00:59:10   and someone brings up money and they say, shh,

00:59:11   We're in the brainstorming phase.

00:59:12   No one talks about it.

00:59:13   There's no bad ideas here.

00:59:14   I'm like, no, diamonds around the outside is a bad idea.

00:59:16   (laughs)

00:59:17   You need to include that.

00:59:19   I mean, in theory, they have so much expertise.

00:59:21   That's why that person is in the room,

00:59:23   the manufacturing expert who says,

00:59:25   here's why that would be expensive to make.

00:59:27   And the other thing about that,

00:59:29   with all these stories from the innovations

00:59:32   that Apple's done in manufacturing,

00:59:33   is very often that person will be in the room and say,

00:59:35   you can't do that, it's too expensive, right?

00:59:37   And then the job of Apple as a business is to say,

00:59:39   okay, let's find a way to make it economically feasible

00:59:44   to do unibody aluminum CNC machined cases.

00:59:49   I know it's too expensive now,

00:59:51   what would it take to make that not expensive?

00:59:54   Let's now solve that problem.

00:59:55   Let's put millions of dollars into a company

00:59:57   that builds these tools.

00:59:58   Like, can we get on the other side of this

01:00:00   after a decade of making these things or whatever,

01:00:02   where we become experts at it where it is,

01:00:05   we can do it in a way that doesn't break the bank

01:00:08   Also, we get the design things that you know

01:00:10   That's why it has to be part of the conversation and you have to listen to that person when they tell you it's too expensive to

01:00:15   Do you have to say okay now here's another problem. We have to solve it apparently with the chamfered edge

01:00:19   They didn't do that

01:00:20   They said we're just gonna do it anyway

01:00:22   And it turned out it was either more expensive or not as durable or both and then they had to retreat from it

01:00:27   That's that's not a win in my book

01:00:29   Soluble apps rights you asked whether the order of addresses and contacts matters it definitely

01:00:35   Does when you send email to a group in mail as the first address is always chosen

01:00:40   I had to add a feature to my app to change the first address. That's bad

01:00:44   Going through contacts and deleting all the emails and then re-adding them in the right order like you can't reorder them

01:00:52   But apparently the first one is important. This is really bad. Like maybe this is not Apple's fault

01:00:58   Maybe it has to do with whatever that vCard spec is doesn't include this but hmm

01:01:02   Just I don't know how you get into like the vCard spec

01:01:05   version 2, let alone version 3 or 4,

01:01:07   whatever the heck number we're on,

01:01:08   and not think about the fact that you support

01:01:10   multiple email addresses but don't

01:01:12   support any kind of prioritization or ordering,

01:01:14   or sort of stealth do.

01:01:15   But I don't like it.

01:01:18   I know we're talking about features being added

01:01:21   to contacts.

01:01:21   It's not an exciting feature.

01:01:23   But I would like that sometime in the next decade or so,

01:01:26   now that we've got shared photo libraries.

01:01:28   This is going to be my new thing.

01:01:31   prioritize multiple elements in contacts.

01:01:34   - Then Sharif Hasabo writes,

01:01:36   "The preferred target when you message someone

01:01:37   "is actually based on how the message thread was created.

01:01:39   "If the thread was originally sent to the iCloud address,

01:01:42   "it will suggest that first."

01:01:44   - This is not a happy solution.

01:01:45   I heard from a couple of people who said,

01:01:47   "Yeah, I had the same problem.

01:01:48   "My solution was I deleted the thread with the person."

01:01:51   So if you go to messages and you see your spouse,

01:01:55   their face, and the thread that you have ongoing with them,

01:02:00   if this is to be believed, if that thread was started

01:02:04   by you sending a message to your spouse's phone number,

01:02:07   forever, when you type your spouse's name in an auto-complete

01:02:11   it will auto-complete to their phone number.

01:02:13   And so you can fix that by just deleting the thread,

01:02:16   but I don't wanna delete a literally years long thread

01:02:18   with like my son to just to delete,

01:02:21   lose all those messages, delete entirely

01:02:23   and start a new one with his Apple ID.

01:02:26   But apparently that is the only solution

01:02:27   that people have told me that they tried

01:02:29   and actually worked.

01:02:30   So Apple, get on that.

01:02:31   We are sponsored this week by Linode,

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01:04:26   [ Music ]

01:04:28   All right, that's it for follow-up,

01:04:30   and since not all that much is going on these days,

01:04:32   we thought we'd clear the decks with some Ask ATP.

01:04:36   Bell Demose writes, "I've had a jobby job

01:04:38   as an iOS developer for a while now

01:04:40   and recently started thinking about creating my own app

01:04:42   on the side. I frequently listen to podcasts

01:04:44   and use Reddit and Twitter. As such, the types of apps

01:04:47   that seem most interesting for me to build are Twitter clients,

01:04:49   podcast players, and Reddit clients.

01:04:51   However, it seems like it's next to impossible to compete

01:04:53   to compete with the likes of Tweetbot, Overcast, and Apollo.

01:04:57   These apps have been in production for years.

01:04:59   As such, they have numerous complex, competitive features that would take new developers several

01:05:03   years to build.

01:05:04   By the time said features are built into the new apps, the existing apps will have gained

01:05:07   even more new features.

01:05:08   Assuming that the new apps can even catch up to their competitors in terms of features,

01:05:12   then they need to be marketed differently before seeing any downloads.

01:05:14   Is it too late to have a successful indie app as a new entrant to a market with well-established

01:05:19   indie apps?

01:05:20   And should iOS developers instead focus on advancing their careers and their jobby job?

01:05:23   I actually went back and forth with Abel on this a little bit, and I pointed out, I don't

01:05:28   remember, I want to say it's Aviary, which is a new-ish Twitter client, and I believe

01:05:35   there was a new version that just came out in the last week or two.

01:05:38   I have not personally used it, but it seems fairly impressive from what little I've seen

01:05:43   of it.

01:05:44   And that's just come out in the last year or two.

01:05:46   So that is an example of something where you could make something brand new or have a different approach to something old and

01:05:53   And it might work, but I do understand the general gist of what what what is being said here

01:06:00   I mean Marco when you wrote overcast there were plenty of podcast players in the world and yet somehow you made it work

01:06:06   Yeah, I mean certainly, you know, there are different times and there are different different times when it's easier or harder to get these markets

01:06:12   However, it's worth remembering that Apollo

01:06:16   was not the first Reddit app,

01:06:18   not the first big Reddit app.

01:06:21   Tweetbot was not the first big Twitter client,

01:06:24   and Overcast was not the first podcast app.

01:06:27   And there were many apps in these categories

01:06:30   before each of these three examples were present.

01:06:34   Whatever you use might seem dominant to you now,

01:06:38   but I don't know what Tweetbot has as market share

01:06:42   relative to every Twitter user.

01:06:45   I don't know what Apollo has in terms of market share

01:06:47   and relevant to everyone who uses Reddit,

01:06:49   but I can tell you that Overcast's market share

01:06:51   among everyone who listens to podcasts

01:06:53   is something like 1.5%.

01:06:56   So that's 98.5% of everyone who listens to podcasts

01:07:01   who could be looking for something else.

01:07:04   Yes, it's hard to get a lot of this market,

01:07:10   and marketing is difficult and expensive now

01:07:13   because there's so much competition.

01:07:14   But when I started Overcast,

01:07:18   before I wrote a single line of code,

01:07:20   I made a notes document,

01:07:23   which I think it wasn't even in notes at the time,

01:07:25   I think it was in task paper,

01:07:26   'cause Apple Notes was not the way we know it today,

01:07:28   it was the old version that sucked with the Markerfelt.

01:07:30   And what I've, I sketched out like other big apps

01:07:35   at the time, Apple Podcasts, I believe Downcast,

01:07:39   which is what I was using at the time,

01:07:40   Pocket casts, I think that might be it.

01:07:43   Oh, and Instacast, those are the four

01:07:45   that I considered the big podcast apps at the time.

01:07:49   Well, Instacast doesn't even exist anymore.

01:07:52   To tell you how much this market can change

01:07:54   in not that much time, and the dynamics certainly,

01:07:59   right now, if I were making that list today,

01:08:01   Apple Podcasts would still be there,

01:08:03   but my biggest competitors are not Instacast

01:08:06   or Downcast or Pocket Casts.

01:08:08   My biggest competitors are Apple, Spotify,

01:08:10   and Google podcasts.

01:08:12   So things change over time.

01:08:14   And anyway, so what I did when I made this list

01:08:16   was I wrote down each of these apps, what their advantages were

01:08:22   over what I was going to build, what their disadvantages were,

01:08:25   and why somebody might choose their app instead of mine,

01:08:29   and why somebody might choose my app instead of theirs.

01:08:32   And I went through and I took screenshots of all these apps.

01:08:33   And I had these folders that had like,

01:08:35   here's each of these apps, their list screens,

01:08:38   They're now playing screens, they're podcast view screens,

01:08:41   they're directory screens.

01:08:43   And I did some basic, just market surveying,

01:08:46   market research of like, what's out there?

01:08:49   And then that helped me figure out,

01:08:51   first of all, do I have a chance here?

01:08:53   Are there any openings here to do things differently?

01:08:56   And can I do that?

01:08:59   And how will my app differentiate itself?

01:09:02   And how can I market that?

01:09:03   Where can I reach people?

01:09:05   If you have good answers to those questions,

01:09:08   there is still room for new stuff.

01:09:11   I think what you have to realize is that

01:09:14   everyone wants things a little bit differently.

01:09:16   This is why, I mean look, there's a to-do app

01:09:20   that ships with every platform of everything

01:09:22   for the last very long time, and yet,

01:09:25   to-do apps are a healthy category of products.

01:09:28   And the reason why is because everyone is only ever

01:09:31   about 75% satisfied with their to-do app,

01:09:33   and everybody wants something a little bit different

01:09:34   everybody else. And so there's basically an infinite market for to-do apps. See also

01:09:39   weather apps. There's certain categories, note-taking apps, there's certain categories

01:09:43   where people just want different things and they have different priorities and if you

01:09:48   can make something that appeals to some people, that's enough to differentiate you.

01:09:53   Now in cases of these specific categories, you know, I'll address Twitter and Reddit

01:09:58   first. I would say don't make a Twitter app because Twitter as a company is all over the

01:10:03   of the place with its relationship with developers,

01:10:06   and the feature set of what people expect

01:10:09   from a Twitter client is just massive.

01:10:12   So I would not, I would stay away from that if I were you.

01:10:15   Reddit, you still have a pretty large feature set.

01:10:19   I've heard from Christian Selig who makes Apollo

01:10:21   on a podcast recently, I forget which one, sorry,

01:10:24   but I've heard that Reddit's actually pretty good

01:10:27   with its API and it's pretty good towards developers,

01:10:30   so that's something worth looking at for sure.

01:10:33   And podcasting, I think there's so many different ways

01:10:37   people want to listen to and organize

01:10:40   and discover their podcasts.

01:10:42   And I get feature requests and design complaints

01:10:46   all the time that I'm not gonna do

01:10:49   because it doesn't fit within my vision

01:10:51   or it wouldn't work well in my app or whatever.

01:10:53   And so there is a lot of room there

01:10:55   for doing things a little bit differently.

01:10:58   And one of the best examples of that is Castro.

01:11:02   If you look at what Castro did, they still are operating.

01:11:06   I don't know if they're super active anymore,

01:11:07   but they still are operating.

01:11:10   And Castro had a totally different take on organization.

01:11:14   It was more of this kind of like inbox queue kind of system

01:11:17   with this triage mechanism.

01:11:19   And that's something that I still get feature requests

01:11:22   every week or so from somebody who used to use Castro,

01:11:26   is now using Overcast for some reason,

01:11:27   and wants more of those features to be in Overcast.

01:11:31   And some of that kind of fits with what I'm doing.

01:11:33   A lot of it doesn't.

01:11:34   Some of it I will never do as well as Castrated

01:11:36   because you kind of have to like specialize your app design

01:11:38   to do that really well.

01:11:40   So there's all sorts of different ways

01:11:41   people might choose to use this.

01:11:42   Now, on the technical side, by starting new,

01:11:47   you have a number of major advantages.

01:11:50   So first of all, you can learn from everyone else's mistakes

01:11:53   in the past.

01:11:54   There are certain things that other apps have done

01:11:57   that their developers probably have talked about

01:12:00   somewhere before that weren't worth the time

01:12:03   or that ended up being big headaches down the road.

01:12:05   So you can learn not to do those things.

01:12:08   There are certain things that you can just do

01:12:11   in much less code than the previous entrants did

01:12:14   because the APIs are different now.

01:12:16   There are newer, easier APIs to use.

01:12:19   And then finally, you have no legacy.

01:12:22   You have no existing audience

01:12:24   and you have no legacy code base.

01:12:26   If I were to start a brand new podcast app today,

01:12:30   I wouldn't just rebuild everything that's in Overcast

01:12:33   exactly the way I built it the first time.

01:12:34   I would do things differently and I would do fewer things.

01:12:38   There are certain features I wouldn't do at all.

01:12:41   - Such as?

01:12:42   - Streaming I wouldn't do.

01:12:44   It causes a lot of weird issues.

01:12:47   In this era of dynamic ad insertion, it's even weirder.

01:12:50   I would not do streaming at all.

01:12:52   There are certain kinda like back end changes

01:12:55   I would definitely do differently.

01:12:57   I might not even do sync.

01:12:59   I wouldn't do a website.

01:13:01   I would probably not even run servers.

01:13:03   There's a lot of things I would do differently.

01:13:06   There are certain options I wouldn't have.

01:13:08   I wouldn't have the dark mode override.

01:13:10   That's a massive pain in my rear end.

01:13:12   Certain things I just wouldn't do.

01:13:14   But if you're starting new, you can do only the easy things.

01:13:19   You can cherry pick.

01:13:21   You can use AVPlayer and not do all my sound processing stuff.

01:13:25   And that saves you a ton of time.

01:13:26   You can use SwiftUI, and Swift is the back end,

01:13:29   and Cloud Kit, Cloud Kit didn't exist when I started.

01:13:32   I probably would have based it on Cloud Kit if it did.

01:13:35   There are so many advantages you have by starting new

01:13:39   and because you don't have an existing audience

01:13:42   that have been using your app for all this time,

01:13:44   nobody will complain about some feature not being there

01:13:48   that they just got taken away from them

01:13:50   because you're starting fresh.

01:13:51   So you can start with iOS 16,

01:13:53   you can start with a basic feature set

01:13:55   and you can add from there

01:13:56   and you can differentiate in ways

01:13:58   that the other entrants in the market can't or won't do.

01:14:01   So for instance, a pretty big part of Overcast

01:14:05   is its playlist organization system.

01:14:08   And you can have multiple playlists.

01:14:10   One of the reasons Castor was able to do what it did

01:14:13   with its triage system is that it didn't have that.

01:14:15   It had like this one main inbox kind of thing,

01:14:18   or this one queue thing, and forgive me

01:14:20   if I'm getting details where I never actually

01:14:22   really used it myself,

01:14:23   besides just looking at it for two seconds.

01:14:25   but they were able to structure their app in a way

01:14:28   that I literally can't do that in Overcast

01:14:31   without massive structural changes.

01:14:32   So there's stuff like that, that you have freedom

01:14:38   when you're starting new that existing entrants won't do.

01:14:41   Other things, so for instance,

01:14:42   I am not in the Reddit community, I don't use Reddit.

01:14:46   I don't use TikTok for much except occasional viewing.

01:14:51   I barely use Instagram.

01:14:54   If you can integrate with these services

01:14:56   in ways that I can't,

01:14:58   you have a differentiating factor there.

01:14:59   You can do social features that Apple would never do,

01:15:03   or that I would never do.

01:15:04   So there's lots of room to address these problems

01:15:09   in ways that the other entrants

01:15:12   either can't, won't, or at least haven't.

01:15:15   And so there's always room for that.

01:15:17   There might not be a ton of room,

01:15:19   there might not be a ton of money to be made there,

01:15:21   But when the markets are this big,

01:15:24   even a very small percentage of it, that can be a business.

01:15:29   - The difficult part of all this is kind of like,

01:15:31   I want to make an app that's like the apps that I like.

01:15:36   So I listen to podcasts and Reddit or whatever.

01:15:38   You have to really kind of be honest with yourself

01:15:41   about expectations, right?

01:15:43   How many apps have you made?

01:15:44   How complicated an app have you ever made before?

01:15:49   do you think you can make an app that will be good enough to get any percentage of the

01:15:55   market in a very crowded market in a complex problem space?

01:15:59   Not that these are particularly complex, but let's say, pick a Mac where it's easier to

01:16:04   pick an example.

01:16:05   I'm going to make a Photoshop competitor.

01:16:06   Boy, that's tough.

01:16:09   There's a lot of graphic editor apps, and there are ones that are less complicated than

01:16:12   Photoshop, but even the less complicated ones are pretty complicated.

01:16:15   Image editing is not simple.

01:16:17   If you do make a simple image editor that's basically like the equivalent of MS Paint,

01:16:20   I'm not sure there's a market for that or if there is, it's a different market than

01:16:23   Photoshop.

01:16:27   Just because I love using Photoshop, I love using Pixelmator, I'm going to make an app

01:16:31   like that.

01:16:32   I've never made an app before, I'm going to try it.

01:16:34   Be careful about, I like watching baseball, therefore I'm going to be a major league basketball

01:16:38   player.

01:16:39   Be careful what you choose to build and be honest with what you can expect to make on

01:16:45   your first outing or second outing or whatever.

01:16:48   Because it's not easy.

01:16:49   You only hear from the successful people.

01:16:51   You don't hear from Marco and his podcast app.

01:16:53   You don't hear the 50 people who tried to make podcast apps

01:16:56   and did and put them on the app store

01:16:58   and you can use them to subscribe to an RSS feed

01:17:02   and hit play and make a playlist

01:17:04   and no one hears about those apps

01:17:05   because they did what they did just fine

01:17:07   but they didn't have anything to differentiate them

01:17:09   and it just ends up being too much to add all the features

01:17:13   that would differentiate them.

01:17:15   So yeah, especially when you're looking at like,

01:17:19   all these things that interest you, like pick one.

01:17:22   Don't try to make a podcast Reddit Twitter client, right?

01:17:27   It's too much in a single application.

01:17:29   Even just doing one of those is very difficult.

01:17:31   And then when you do the market research,

01:17:33   like Marco described,

01:17:34   like looking at what the competitive landscape is

01:17:36   and thinking about what you have to offer there,

01:17:39   that should give you an idea of like,

01:17:42   All right, if I did this successfully, could it work?

01:17:45   And now let me look at what I've signed myself up for.

01:17:48   Okay, so I'm gonna make an app that's like X, Y, and Z.

01:17:50   Oh, and by the way, it has to look nice and be nice

01:17:52   and be bug free and have good performance.

01:17:53   And it's tall.

01:17:55   I don't wanna be discouraging,

01:17:57   but I feel like in some ways it's easier to make,

01:18:01   an app for organizing your model train parts

01:18:04   than it is to make a Twitter client, right?

01:18:06   Or a Reddit client even.

01:18:08   Because how many apps are there

01:18:09   that organize model train parts?

01:18:11   probably not that many.

01:18:13   And if you're super into model trains

01:18:14   and you have a really good idea about how

01:18:16   you would like to organize your parts,

01:18:18   you have unique insight and you have a market

01:18:23   that doesn't have as many competitors.

01:18:25   And even if your app is a little bit janky,

01:18:27   it could be one of two or three model train part

01:18:32   organizing applications in the entire app store

01:18:34   and the other two haven't been updated in five years.

01:18:36   And that gives you a big advantage right out of the gate,

01:18:39   as opposed to a Twitter client or a Reddit client

01:18:42   or a podcast player where there is tons more competition

01:18:44   and that competition is active and experienced

01:18:47   and the ones that are left alive are probably pretty good.

01:18:49   - Yeah, I would say too, building on that a little bit,

01:18:52   you said that on the Mac that a Photoshop replacement

01:18:56   is a pretty complex thing and that's true.

01:18:59   And even the market for those already has,

01:19:02   you have Acorn, you have Pixelmator,

01:19:05   you have whatever that one is, all the designers--

01:19:08   - Affinity Photo.

01:19:08   Yeah, you have very strong entrants already.

01:19:11   That's a lot of competition, and those are very big apps.

01:19:14   But two apps that I use, one app that I use all the time

01:19:18   is called PaintCode.

01:19:19   And PaintCode is in some ways a replacement

01:19:24   for Adobe Illustrator, but it's so programmer specific.

01:19:28   It's like a programmer's, specifically an Apple programmer's

01:19:33   vector drawing app, because it can export source code

01:19:36   to draw these things.

01:19:37   And even when I'm drawing something

01:19:39   that doesn't need to be represented in source code,

01:19:42   I still will often use Paint code because I know it.

01:19:46   And it's simpler and it fits my view

01:19:47   of how these things should work very well.

01:19:49   Whereas something like Adobe Illustrator,

01:19:51   I never really learned and it's very big and complex

01:19:55   and intimidating for me.

01:19:56   Another good app is MonoDraw, we talked about it before,

01:19:59   is an app that specializes in making ASCII art.

01:20:02   It's basically a drawing app on the Mac for making ASCII art

01:20:05   And the author of this app did an incredibly high polished,

01:20:10   amazing job for this extremely nerdy specialized app.

01:20:14   And there are lots of areas like that where,

01:20:17   you know, if you, I mean, we've all had this experience,

01:20:21   you are on your phone somewhere,

01:20:23   you don't have your computer nearby,

01:20:25   and you have some need.

01:20:26   Oh, I need to put a few images together,

01:20:28   or you know, crop something, or remove a splotch from the,

01:20:31   you know, you have some need

01:20:32   that you have to do on your phone.

01:20:34   and you search the app store,

01:20:36   and there's 10,000 garbage apps to do it, and that's it.

01:20:39   There are so many examples of that

01:20:42   that we've run into as just iPhone users,

01:20:45   that every one of those could be,

01:20:48   you know what, I could just make a really good version

01:20:50   of this in two weeks and just put it up there.

01:20:53   And I think there's a lot to be said

01:20:56   for the underscore David Smith approach

01:20:59   of just start making stuff whenever you see an opening.

01:21:02   Just make something and get it to a reasonably

01:21:06   usable, sellable level and just put it up there.

01:21:10   And throw a bunch of spaghetti at the wall

01:21:12   and see what sticks because eventually

01:21:14   stuff does start to stick.

01:21:16   And there are so many areas where there is underserved

01:21:21   or unserved demand and all that's out there is crap

01:21:26   because computer nerds like us weren't paying

01:21:27   that much attention to it.

01:21:29   We have tons of great podcast apps and Reddit clients

01:21:34   and Twitter apps because all of us nerds use those

01:21:36   and pay attention to those areas.

01:21:38   Meanwhile, look at anyone else's phone in your life

01:21:41   and see the apps they use and you'll find

01:21:45   at least some crazy, stupid subscription scam based app

01:21:49   that they only have it to crop an image

01:21:52   and they're paying two bucks a week for it

01:21:53   because of some stupid scam.

01:21:55   There's so much out there that's being badly served

01:21:57   underserved. And so even if you don't get like the high profile, you know, big popular

01:22:03   nerd app categories, there's a lot of other stuff out there that you can try for and a

01:22:07   lot of that stuff you can make an app in two weeks or less and just stick it out there

01:22:11   and see if it works before you invest more time into it and just place a bunch of bets

01:22:15   on the table and see which ones pay off.

01:22:16   All right, moving right along. Russell Bernau writes, "I remember hearing you advise people

01:22:21   to stick with battle-tested, well-supported languages instead of chasing the newest ones,

01:22:26   But you don't follow your own advice.

01:22:27   Now that you've felt the pain of switching

01:22:28   to Swift and SwiftUI, have you considered

01:22:30   trying to learn a battle-tested cross-platform language?

01:22:33   Or maybe even a middleware instead.

01:22:35   If you're committing to learning something brand new anyway,

01:22:36   why not take the opportunity to ship on all platforms

01:22:39   instead of being limited to just apples?

01:22:40   Before anyone answers this,

01:22:43   let me give a little more context,

01:22:44   'cause I also exchanged emails with Russell a little bit.

01:22:47   Apparently I save all my good stuff for email

01:22:48   instead of bringing it to the show,

01:22:49   because I'm a professional.

01:22:51   I exchanged emails--

01:22:52   - What's your fast mail credit link there, Jason?

01:22:53   - Right, seriously.

01:22:55   How are you storing all this email and sending it?

01:22:57   - Exactly right.

01:22:58   Caselist.com/fastmail.

01:23:00   But anyways, it turns out that Russell is a developer,

01:23:03   but develops against, I think it's Unity,

01:23:07   one of the cross-platform game engines,

01:23:09   which is a very, very different scenario

01:23:12   than like a React Native or something like that.

01:23:14   And so, once I discovered that,

01:23:16   everything clicked into place,

01:23:18   because using a cross-platform thing like React Native,

01:23:22   I haven't fiddled with it barely at all,

01:23:24   but I have heard universally bad things

01:23:27   from many, many different people that I trust and respect.

01:23:31   And so the reason we don't use something like a React Native

01:23:35   is because you're always beholden to the React Native crowd

01:23:39   to update and to do the things you wanna do

01:23:42   and make it better and do it in a timely fashion.

01:23:45   And almost universally,

01:23:47   when you use something like a React Native,

01:23:49   it ends up being pretty obvious pretty quickly

01:23:52   it's not true native and it's garbage or even if it seems native you can't use the latest and greatest

01:23:59   stuff because react native hasn't updated to the you know new APIs for iowa 16 or what have you

01:24:04   this is quite a bit different though with something like unity which i mean john jump in when you're

01:24:10   ready but unity and what's uh unreal engine is the other one that i'm thinking of um both of those

01:24:16   as far as I understand, are like best in class, there is no really good equivalent offered by

01:24:23   Apple or Google game engines. Like these are the best of the best and it is in their best interest

01:24:30   to be the best of the best everywhere. Like that is the entire point of these engines and so I

01:24:35   don't really think it's a very fair comparison to compare Swift and SwiftUI to what it turns out is

01:24:42   like a Unity or an Unreal Engine or something like that. Also, for all of Swift's problems, of which

01:24:48   there are many and more as time goes on, I still personally like it quite a lot and prefer it to

01:24:54   Objective-C. There are ways that Objective-C is better, full stop. I'm not saying that Swift is

01:24:59   better than Objective-C, but in a lot of ways I still prefer it to Objective-C. It feels,

01:25:04   it felt better in this regard years ago, but it still feels to me, I don't know if "light" is the

01:25:11   is the word I'm looking for, but maybe more modern

01:25:13   is the best way to describe it.

01:25:15   But there's a lot to like about Swift.

01:25:17   And Swift UI, when you are within the guard rails,

01:25:21   as we've said, both Marco and I particularly

01:25:22   have said many times, when you're within the guard rails,

01:25:25   it is great, it really honestly is.

01:25:27   It's just that those guard rails,

01:25:29   as I think I said last week, are humongously tall brick walls

01:25:31   and when you try to get around them, it is painful.

01:25:33   So, I don't know, that's my two cents about all this.

01:25:37   Let's start with Jon this time.

01:25:38   Jon, what are your thoughts here?

01:25:40   - And the whole thing about sticking with

01:25:41   battle-tested stuff instead of chasing new stuff,

01:25:44   I think as Marco talked about on a past show,

01:25:45   this is exactly what he's done.

01:25:47   If anything, he's been a little bit late.

01:25:48   Like when it comes to-- - A little bit.

01:25:50   - Yeah, when it comes to app development,

01:25:52   we're taking our cues from Apple, the platform owner, right?

01:25:55   And so it was clear that Apple was pushing Swift,

01:25:57   but Marco waited many, many years

01:25:58   before he jumped on that bandwagon.

01:26:00   Same thing with SwiftUI.

01:26:01   It existed for a while until Apple had to put a slide up

01:26:04   and say, "Look, it's SwiftUI, just FYI.

01:26:07   "We will continue to support the other ones,

01:26:08   "they're great or whatever,

01:26:09   where we're putting all of our efforts behind SwiftUI.

01:26:12   That is not jumping on the new thing in a second,

01:26:15   waiting for it to be quote unquote battle tested.

01:26:19   Now it doesn't mean it's gonna be perfect

01:26:20   or even fit for all the purposes that you need it for

01:26:23   because the old stuff still exists.

01:26:24   But waiting that long is sort of on the trailing edge.

01:26:28   We're not on the bleeding,

01:26:29   if you're going to Swift and SwiftUI in 2022,

01:26:31   you are not on the bleeding edge.

01:26:33   You are not chasing the newest hotness.

01:26:34   You are merely doing the minimum necessary

01:26:37   to keep up with the clear direction of the platform owner.

01:26:40   Now with game stuff and engines,

01:26:42   there's so much more sort of middleware,

01:26:45   like for, we're talking about like React Native

01:26:49   or even like RxSwift, just stuff like that.

01:26:51   When you're building on top of a platform

01:26:54   that builds on top of a platform,

01:26:55   there's just much more stuff involved,

01:26:56   but the gaming middleware does so much for you.

01:27:01   It's not just like a thin wrapper around existing APIs.

01:27:05   It is an entire world unto itself,

01:27:07   and games in particular tend not to have,

01:27:10   much to Apple's chagrin, very big platform tie-ins,

01:27:14   like what makes a game a Mac game versus a PC game

01:27:17   versus a Nintendo Switch game.

01:27:19   Like, games do their own UI, they have their own backends,

01:27:23   there's nothing about them in most cases

01:27:25   that reveals anything about the platform that they're on

01:27:28   with the exception of maybe integration

01:27:29   with like voice chat on the consoles or whatever,

01:27:31   but like Apple wants you to use Game Center

01:27:34   and to be able to sign in with your Apple ID

01:27:36   to share your scores in iCloud and it's like no.

01:27:39   That's all Apple specific work

01:27:41   that has no purpose anyplace else.

01:27:42   So if your goal is to sell a game

01:27:44   on more than just Apple's platforms,

01:27:46   doing stuff the Apple way is a big money and time sink

01:27:51   and that's where Unity and Unreal Engine come in

01:27:53   where you're like I have to sell this game

01:27:55   in as many platforms as I can.

01:27:57   Any moment I spend doing something Apple specific

01:28:01   is wasted time because the players don't care about it

01:28:04   and it doesn't benefit me in any of my other platforms

01:28:07   and it probably has nothing to do

01:28:08   with what's going on in Unreal and Unity.

01:28:11   And that said though, speaking of,

01:28:13   for the previous question about market opportunity

01:28:15   or whatever, Unity and Unreal themselves

01:28:18   are gaming middleware that replace

01:28:21   older, creakier gaming middleware

01:28:23   and surpass them in ability and scope, right?

01:28:26   And both of, basically any kind of modern game stuff

01:28:29   that continues to use C++, it's the cutting edge,

01:28:32   it's what you should be using right now,

01:28:34   but everyone hates C++ and has memory problems, right?

01:28:37   And so who's going to be the next big middleware engine

01:28:41   that does game level performance with a safer language?

01:28:45   I don't know the details of Unreal and Unity.

01:28:46   Maybe they have a Rust thing,

01:28:48   maybe they have a safe mode in C++.

01:28:50   I don't actually know if they've already done this,

01:28:51   but I'm not suggesting that an indie developer

01:28:54   take on this task, but some multi-billion dollar corporation

01:28:57   there is a market opportunity to be the first game engine

01:29:02   to try to compete with Unreal and Unity,

01:29:05   but in a more memory safe way.

01:29:07   Because there's, you know, games by their nature

01:29:10   care about performance much more than other kinds

01:29:12   of applications.

01:29:13   And so they tend to stick with less safe, more

01:29:19   problematic technologies.

01:29:21   They give them the speed they need

01:29:22   at the cost of pain and suffering of the developers who

01:29:25   make them.

01:29:26   It's an incredible black art.

01:29:27   Like, if you ever look at-- go to GDC and see, like,

01:29:30   What does it take to build a modern game?

01:29:33   I'll just pick Destiny, but anything like Call of Duty,

01:29:35   any of those type of games.

01:29:37   Under the covers, those things are terrifying.

01:29:39   And the people who can build those engines,

01:29:41   there's a small group as in probably hundreds

01:29:43   or thousands of people on the entire planet

01:29:46   who have the brain capacity and skills and experience

01:29:49   to build those type of things because they are so weird.

01:29:53   They look nothing under the covers like an iOS app

01:29:56   or Photoshop or Microsoft words.

01:29:59   and they're incredibly complicated

01:30:01   and just their whole world's unto themselves.

01:30:04   That's before you even talk about the things

01:30:06   they're running on top of like Unreal or Unity,

01:30:08   before you even get to all of that.

01:30:09   It's ferociously complicated and very difficult to do

01:30:14   and that's why you have to hire these huge teams

01:30:16   and spend millions and millions of dollars

01:30:18   to have huge QA departments

01:30:20   because you're asking people to do this Herculean task

01:30:23   with languages where one false move

01:30:25   gives you memory exception

01:30:27   and kills your entire application.

01:30:28   Now you gotta do it multiple threads and over the network

01:30:31   and on top of multiple platforms.

01:30:33   I know by the way, it has to be fast, right?

01:30:35   So that's a big ask.

01:30:36   And I feel like there's a market opportunity

01:30:39   for a middleware that is more modern than the existing ones,

01:30:43   just as they replace whatever things came before them.

01:30:47   Like if you had sent this question back in the 80s,

01:30:49   it was like, why are you considering

01:30:50   using some kind of middleware thing

01:30:52   when you could just be writing the engine yourself?

01:30:54   Writing the engine yourself is battle tested or whatever.

01:30:56   But it's like, time marches on

01:30:58   and eventually people realize that there is a new,

01:31:00   better way to do things.

01:31:01   And so I think that's what's happening with Swift

01:31:05   and SwiftUI, it's the clear new and better way

01:31:08   according to Apple and they own the platform

01:31:10   and so you better get on board that bus.

01:31:13   There's a dividing line between I don't want to be too early

01:31:19   and I don't want to be the stick in the mud

01:31:21   who's using Objective-C until they turn out the lights.

01:31:24   - Yeah, and I would say too,

01:31:25   there's a lot of context around certain areas

01:31:30   of these choices that matters a lot.

01:31:32   So for instance, in the context of this question,

01:31:35   where Casey discovered through his email,

01:31:37   but you can get to it at caseylist.com/passphillism,

01:31:42   that this was about a game.

01:31:44   - About the triple W.

01:31:45   - Right.

01:31:46   - Yes, Dad, sorry, Dad.

01:31:47   - When you're making a game,

01:31:49   that's a very important context

01:31:51   that's different from making other kinds of apps,

01:31:53   'cause the needs and priorities and environments

01:31:55   are very different.

01:31:57   When I've talked about sticking with battle tested languages

01:31:59   and platforms and tools in the past,

01:32:01   what I'm usually talking about is the server side of things.

01:32:04   And that's a whole different ball game.

01:32:07   And on the server side, what you're usually doing

01:32:12   is fairly boring stuff of moving data around

01:32:15   in some kind of scalable, affordable, useful way.

01:32:18   And you're doing it on a very stable

01:32:23   and pretty unmoving platform of Linux

01:32:26   or whatever virtualized thing you're doing.

01:32:30   That platform barely changes it all over time.

01:32:33   And so if you stick on top of it,

01:32:36   other boring battle-tested tools,

01:32:38   you're in for probably very easy time

01:32:41   and a very stable server situation.

01:32:43   The client side where, again,

01:32:46   if you're developing for a PC,

01:32:49   that doesn't change that much these days,

01:32:51   Apple's platforms do change though,

01:32:53   and not super aggressively.

01:32:56   I mean, Swift is eight years old, in public at least.

01:33:00   Swift is eight years old.

01:33:01   Swift UI is three years old.

01:33:04   These are not, I would say Swift is not cutting edge anymore.

01:33:08   Swift is, I mean, they keep modifying it

01:33:10   because they can't sit still for some reason,

01:33:12   and they keep adding more and more garbage on top of Swift,

01:33:14   some of which is useful, much of which is not.

01:33:17   But the language itself, the core of Swift,

01:33:20   is no longer the new hotness,

01:33:21   it's just what you're supposed to use, like period.

01:33:24   That's like what, Swift is the correct language

01:33:27   to use for Apple platform apps, that's it.

01:33:30   I'm not using Swift on the server

01:33:31   because that seems a little fringy

01:33:33   and less likely to be super well tested

01:33:36   and things like that.

01:33:37   But on the client side, Swift is it.

01:33:40   That's what you should be using.

01:33:42   And any code you write that's not Swift

01:33:44   for Apple platforms is technical debt.

01:33:47   It's simple as that.

01:33:47   And I say this as somebody whose app

01:33:49   is mostly Objective-C, but that's the reality.

01:33:51   The reality is you should be using Swift.

01:33:54   SwiftUI is, again, it's three years old.

01:33:57   There are still a lot of shortcomings to SwiftUI,

01:34:00   and frankly, there's just bugs.

01:34:02   And some of those get fixed by the releases,

01:34:05   some of them don't, and that's just the way it is.

01:34:09   And SwiftUI, I still do consider somewhat cutting edge.

01:34:13   And while I'm writing this little prototype thing

01:34:17   using SwiftUI, I'm not rewriting my whole app in it today.

01:34:22   You know, I'm writing this prototype to see

01:34:24   how much can I get written in SwiftUI,

01:34:27   and my eventual goal is to rewrite the whole UI in SwiftUI,

01:34:32   but that's not gonna be releasable,

01:34:36   at least until I can require iOS 16.

01:34:39   And maybe, if I run into problems

01:34:42   that are just insurmountable,

01:34:44   Maybe iOS 17 or later or never.

01:34:47   So right now SwiftUI,

01:34:48   I'm still considering kind of experimental.

01:34:51   I'm kind of doing it in parallel with my main code base.

01:34:56   But that's still an experiment.

01:34:58   But Swift itself is--

01:35:00   - Well, it's like Objective-C though.

01:35:02   Like every line of UI code you write now

01:35:05   is also technical debt,

01:35:06   unless something catastrophic happens

01:35:08   with Apple's stated strategy, right?

01:35:09   It's not that it's bad or it's broken or whatever,

01:35:11   but you basically know you're writing dead end code, right?

01:35:14   'cause Apple has signaled SwiftUI is the future

01:35:16   and maybe you have to.

01:35:17   You have to use UI kick,

01:35:18   SwiftUI just plain can't do it, right?

01:35:20   But you know when you're writing that code,

01:35:23   I will eventually have to change this probably.

01:35:26   - Right, and in the very first year of SwiftUI,

01:35:30   maybe that's a big risk.

01:35:33   After one year, maybe they would say,

01:35:35   "You know what, this strategy's not working out so well."

01:35:38   See, combine. - Combine, yeah.

01:35:39   - And they would just kind of quietly walk away.

01:35:42   That happens all the time with tech companies

01:35:44   when they launch new stuff.

01:35:45   They throw something out there, some new initiative,

01:35:48   doesn't work the way they want to

01:35:49   or doesn't get enough traction

01:35:50   and they walk away from it slowly over time,

01:35:52   or abruptly in the case of some other companies.

01:35:55   But with SwiftUI being already three years in

01:36:00   and with it getting tons of updates

01:36:03   on each of those three years

01:36:04   and having lots of steam behind it

01:36:06   and lots of people using it

01:36:06   and Apple putting a lot of, what is it,

01:36:09   wood behind the arrow, is that the metaphor?

01:36:12   That doesn't make a lot of sense.

01:36:13   Anyway, 'cause aren't Air supposed to be like--

01:36:16   - One behind the arrowhead, do you feel better about that?

01:36:19   - Maybe, but aren't Air supposed to be like really light

01:36:21   so that they can-- - Oh, concentrate, concentrate.

01:36:23   - Anyway, so Apple's putting a lot of effort into SwiftUI

01:36:27   and supporting it very well.

01:36:28   The community is picking it up

01:36:30   and lots of people are using it just fine.

01:36:32   So I think SwiftUI has probably crossed the threshold

01:36:37   where its future is pretty safe.

01:36:40   I think it clearly has a strong future.

01:36:43   It might even be pretty safe to say

01:36:46   that it will be where everything is going.

01:36:49   It's certainly on the way to that.

01:36:51   And I think at this point you can start making that call.

01:36:54   And so at this point, it's very important

01:36:58   for Apple platform developers to start familiarizing

01:37:01   ourselves with SwiftUI.

01:37:03   Maybe not jumping 100% into it yet

01:37:05   if you're not ready for that, but again,

01:37:07   going back to the earlier question from Abel DeMaz

01:37:09   about writing a brand new podcast or Twitter app,

01:37:12   if you're writing a brand new app from scratch today,

01:37:15   you should definitely do it in SwiftUI.

01:37:17   Like no question, definitely use SwiftUI from scratch.

01:37:20   The only reason not to is if you've run into

01:37:22   some weird edge case that it doesn't support

01:37:24   and you have to wrap a UI kit control or something.

01:37:27   But even that, that should be done very sparingly.

01:37:30   And so the only question is whether those of us

01:37:34   who haven't used SwiftUI yet,

01:37:37   who have existing code bases,

01:37:39   when and whether we should start adopting it ourselves

01:37:42   and starting to replace our UI kit code with SwiftUI.

01:37:45   And that's a separate question,

01:37:46   there's again separate factors that go into that,

01:37:47   but it's definitely the correct language to choose

01:37:52   when you have that choice today.

01:37:54   And sometimes in tech we have the luxury

01:37:57   of picking the safe old thing.

01:38:00   Again, on the server side, we have so many great options

01:38:03   for safe old boring languages and tools and databases

01:38:06   and stuff like that, tons of great options for that

01:38:08   on the server side because the server doesn't change

01:38:11   that much over time.

01:38:11   - And it's also the platform that nobody owns though.

01:38:14   Like that's the web is the platform nobody owns, right?

01:38:16   So the reason we can do that on the web on the server side

01:38:18   is there is no like dominant,

01:38:20   imagine if Microsoft owned the server and it's like,

01:38:22   well, Microsoft decided this year that the new extension

01:38:25   to IIS whatever is how we're gonna do web development.

01:38:27   We'd have to be chasing the platform owner,

01:38:29   but there is no platform owner on the server side.

01:38:31   It's basically Linux as close as you can get

01:38:33   and they're pretty agnostic.

01:38:34   And so you can stick with PHP forever

01:38:36   because no one's going to stop you

01:38:37   and no one's going to move on and say,

01:38:39   oh, every line of PHP you write, that's legacy code,

01:38:41   'cause pretty soon PHP's not gonna run anymore.

01:38:43   No, what's gonna stop it?

01:38:44   As long as people still are using PHP

01:38:46   and they keep developing it, it will be supported.

01:38:48   But that's not true of developing an iOS app.

01:38:50   What Apple says is what's gonna happen.

01:38:52   - Yeah, I guess that's true.

01:38:53   I mean, I guess the same reason why, you know,

01:38:55   email doesn't change that much over time,

01:38:57   because there kind of is no, you know,

01:38:58   platform owner for email, although Google's getting close.

01:39:01   But anyway, there's, yeah, so, you know,

01:39:05   different conditions, different factors that play into it,

01:39:08   but on the client side, you have to follow

01:39:10   your platform vendor when there is one.

01:39:12   And you have to follow what Apple's doing

01:39:15   on the client side in order to be competitive.

01:39:17   And as for like, why don't I learn

01:39:20   some cross-platform thing?

01:39:22   Again, in the games market, this makes way more sense.

01:39:25   In the app market, as Casey was saying earlier,

01:39:27   those have so far proven to be pretty painful

01:39:29   for people who use them.

01:39:31   I have yet to hear anything positive enough

01:39:35   about a cross-platform app framework

01:39:37   that makes me want to use it.

01:39:39   They also seem to change very frequently.

01:39:42   Like, you know, people say, oh, well,

01:39:44   why don't you learn this new thing?

01:39:45   Well, because if I learn SwiftUI and Swift,

01:39:48   that knowledge is probably gonna last me 10 years.

01:39:51   Whereas if I learn React Native,

01:39:54   is that really gonna still be the dominant thing

01:39:56   in that market in 10 years?

01:39:57   Probably not, if I had to guess.

01:39:59   That's very unlikely.

01:40:00   'cause stuff like that tends to change much more often

01:40:03   in those areas.

01:40:04   And then finally, the whole idea of this would be like,

01:40:07   then I can capture people on Android.

01:40:10   You know what?

01:40:12   I don't want people on Android.

01:40:14   Like, I really don't, and there's lots,

01:40:15   this sounds slightly dismissive,

01:40:17   it sounds very dismissive.

01:40:18   I mean it only slightly dismissively.

01:40:20   Frankly, I don't have a market on Android.

01:40:24   There are podcast apps there, they do well,

01:40:27   they can have that market.

01:40:28   To serve Android, you have to be involved in Android.

01:40:31   You have to have Android testing, Android test devices.

01:40:34   You have to know how to make stuff good on Android.

01:40:37   You have to integrate with Android stuff

01:40:38   and Android features that Android people like to use

01:40:40   on their Android phones.

01:40:41   I'm not in that world at all.

01:40:43   So I really can't make a good Android app

01:40:46   and the language is not what's holding me back.

01:40:48   It's everything else about the platform

01:40:50   that's holding me back.

01:40:51   And frankly, a podcast app has a much better market

01:40:54   on iOS than on Android anyway.

01:40:56   whatever Android people think their market share is,

01:40:58   first of all, those numbers are a little bit,

01:41:00   there's a lot of asterisks on those numbers,

01:41:02   but second of all, when you look at

01:41:03   podcast listeners specifically,

01:41:05   iPhones are way more dominant in podcast listeners overall

01:41:10   than Android phones.

01:41:11   So my market is just not very strong there,

01:41:13   even if I knew how to address it,

01:41:15   which I very much don't, and the language isn't the problem.

01:41:19   - Interesting thing about games is

01:41:20   it is often the path of least resistance to use

01:41:23   Unity or Unreal or whatever,

01:41:25   even if you decide I'm only ever going to make this

01:41:28   an iOS app, and even if you decide,

01:41:30   I'm gonna make this an iOS app,

01:41:31   and I'm gonna do integrations

01:41:32   with all the weird Apple stuff too.

01:41:34   I'm gonna do all the Apple stuff,

01:41:35   I'm gonna support Game Center,

01:41:37   I'm going to have Apple ID logins,

01:41:39   I'm going to integrate with all Apple, Citrus.

01:41:41   Still, still, even if that's what you decide to do,

01:41:44   the game engines do so much for you,

01:41:47   in terms of like, that is the real platform

01:41:49   you're writing on top of it, still worthwhile to do it.

01:41:50   And then if you do that, and since games, again,

01:41:53   don't have any, usually don't have many ties with the platform, you might think, hmm, I

01:41:59   look at this app sideways, I could probably get this thing running on a PC or on an Android

01:42:06   phone because I did use Unity and most of this game will work fine anywhere else, just

01:42:12   those platform specific bits I did for Apple, I could just remove them or replace them with

01:42:15   Android equivalents or whatever, but still, there's plenty of games that we know, games

01:42:19   that we know and love that start off on the iPhone and spend, sometimes spend years on

01:42:23   the iPhone before they go to any other platform.

01:42:25   Some great games never leave the iPhone.

01:42:27   They just live their entire life on the iPhone in the current warehouse because they're made

01:42:29   by one developer who, you know, there's only so much a single person can do.

01:42:33   To expect a single person to make a complicated iOS game, that's hard enough.

01:42:39   To say also you should support multiple platforms and have this game available on every platform,

01:42:44   you can't ask that much of one person.

01:42:46   Not everyone wants to start a multi-person company.

01:42:48   So it is a perfectly valid choice to say,

01:42:51   I am just going to make this an iOS app,

01:42:53   and I am just going to do what I want to do on a platform

01:42:58   that I'm most comfortable, that I'm familiar with,

01:43:00   and that's all that I can do as an individual developer,

01:43:03   even as a small team.

01:43:05   All right, Gilherme Aliz writes, on episode two

01:43:07   of Hypercritical, John said that Time Machine

01:43:10   was the best feature ever implemented for the Mac.

01:43:12   11 years later, do you guys believe that Time Machine

01:43:15   has found a worthy opponent?

01:43:16   is it still the best feature of the Mac?

01:43:18   I don't even know what I would call the best feature,

01:43:20   but John, is it still the best feature?

01:43:22   - Document proxy icons?

01:43:23   - Yeah, I wish I could remember 11 years ago

01:43:28   if this feature existed, but now today,

01:43:32   probably what I would say is iCloud photo library.

01:43:35   - No, that's a pretty good one.

01:43:37   - Just because it's, I mean, the bad thing about it

01:43:39   is you basically still have to pay money for it,

01:43:41   but you know, whatever, you can't,

01:43:42   server resources aren't free,

01:43:44   But what do people do with their computing devices,

01:43:47   with their phones?

01:43:48   Let's face it, they take pictures.

01:43:49   And I guess this is kind of similar to a time machine.

01:43:53   They take pictures, and before the advent

01:43:55   of iCloud Photo Library, it was too easy for people

01:43:58   to lose those pictures.

01:43:59   And iCloud Photo Library basically

01:44:00   does what it is intended to do and pretty much mostly works.

01:44:04   And it makes it so that you can take pictures with your phone,

01:44:07   and you won't lose them if you drop your phone into a lake.

01:44:10   And that is super important, because pictures

01:44:13   are meaningful and not particularly replaceable.

01:44:17   And in the same way that Time Machine,

01:44:18   the reason I said it was the best feature

01:44:19   is 'cause people had computers

01:44:20   and they kept putting more and more stuff

01:44:23   that is important on their computers.

01:44:24   Computers became a bigger and bigger part of people's lives,

01:44:26   especially with the advent of the internet,

01:44:28   that the stuff on people's computers had tremendous value

01:44:32   and asking people to protect that stuff,

01:44:35   using third-party tools or through their own devices

01:44:40   was just too much to ask, nobody did it, right?

01:44:42   So you had to build it into the operating system,

01:44:44   and it had to be easy enough that regular people could do it.

01:44:46   And Time Machine did that.

01:44:47   And I feel like iCloud Photo Library is a more narrow

01:44:49   version of that.

01:44:50   Maybe in 10 years time, I'll be able to say,

01:44:53   oh, you know, iCloud backups for everything.

01:44:55   'Cause Apple does it for phones.

01:44:56   Hey, you can back up your whole phone to iCloud, right?

01:44:58   They'll take care of everything.

01:44:59   Obviously your photos is a separate thing or whatever.

01:45:01   But like, for Macs, we've still got Time Machine,

01:45:04   but there is no iCloud backup for Macs.

01:45:06   You know, frequent sponsored back players

01:45:08   probably wouldn't like that,

01:45:09   but honestly this is a thing that Apple should create.

01:45:12   It's been a third party opportunity long enough.

01:45:15   We've got Time Machine which predates most of the

01:45:17   cloud stuff and we've got all of our iOS devices

01:45:20   being updated, backed up in iCloud.

01:45:24   iCloud backup for your Mac would be

01:45:27   probably the new, maybe the super seasonal previous ones.

01:45:30   Time Machine, iCloud Photo Library,

01:45:32   and then eventually iCloud backup for Mac.

01:45:34   So there's my top three features,

01:45:36   two of which exist and one of which hopefully will someday.

01:45:39   - I mean, I would say that the photo backup

01:45:41   was even better than Time Machine

01:45:43   in the sense that way more people

01:45:47   have internet connections and three bucks a month,

01:45:50   or whatever it is for the basic one,

01:45:53   than who have external drives

01:45:55   that they plug their stuff into regularly.

01:45:58   And the idea, Time Machine made way more sense

01:46:01   when computing was more stationary.

01:46:04   When you had desktops or you would always use your laptop

01:46:07   like on one desk and that was it,

01:46:08   and you'd plug into everything and basically

01:46:10   use your laptop like a desktop.

01:46:11   And I don't think that's true of today's world anymore,

01:46:14   and we have the whole multi-device world today.

01:46:18   So you can take a photo on any of your Apple devices

01:46:22   that have cameras, and they show up

01:46:24   on every other Apple device, including the ones

01:46:26   that don't have cameras.

01:46:29   Not only does it back up things from one device,

01:46:33   but it merges all your data and keeps everything

01:46:36   in sync across all of your devices.

01:46:38   and that is such a more modern useful thing

01:46:42   and it doesn't require people to have expensive hardware

01:46:45   that they have to manage and don't forget to eject.

01:46:48   So Time Machine was great for its time,

01:46:51   but the Photo Library model of doing things

01:46:54   is so much more modern and has so much more

01:46:58   broad and accessible utility.

01:47:01   - That's what iCloud Drive was supposed to do by the way,

01:47:03   but iCloud Drive is like, so,

01:47:05   so iCloud Photo Library is so clearly narrowly focused,

01:47:07   is literally the photos application.

01:47:09   Like it doesn't care about any pictures anywhere else

01:47:11   on your disk, it's just the photos application, right?

01:47:13   And that's fine, that's where all the photos go.

01:47:15   Your camera takes them, they go there,

01:47:16   they're in photos app, like makes sense, right?

01:47:18   Time machine is everything on your machine.

01:47:21   And then when they did a cloud version,

01:47:23   they didn't do cloud version of time machine,

01:47:24   they didn't do iCloud backup for your Mac,

01:47:26   and so they said, oh, iCloud Drive,

01:47:28   and documents can save their files,

01:47:30   applications can save their files into iCloud,

01:47:32   and also your documents folder and your desktop

01:47:34   will be in iCloud or whatever.

01:47:36   But two things, one, iCloud Drive and that whole thing,

01:47:39   in my experience, is way less reliable than iCloud Photos,

01:47:41   and two, that's not your whole Mac.

01:47:42   You can put things in other places, right?

01:47:44   So still, that gap remains.

01:47:46   And so, you know, and again, Time Machine is from an era

01:47:49   when the idea that people would have the upload bandwidth

01:47:51   to back up their entire Mac across the internet

01:47:54   was not a safe assumption.

01:47:55   But now, I think we're probably across that threshold

01:47:58   or at least getting close to it.

01:47:59   So I really hope someday we get iCloud backup for Mac.

01:48:02   And I don't know what they're gonna do with like,

01:48:04   well then how do you deal with documents and desktop

01:48:07   in the cloud or in iCloud drive?

01:48:08   How do you deal with that?

01:48:09   I don't know, figure it out.

01:48:10   But they've never been,

01:48:11   I've never had a lot of confidence in them.

01:48:13   So I hope they give it to whatever team did,

01:48:16   you know, iCloud photo library.

01:48:19   - All right, Mark Voss, who we mentioned earlier,

01:48:24   writes, "I have an LG 77-inch OLED CX TV.

01:48:29   "The LG firmware automatically dims scenes

01:48:31   "that aren't dynamic and relatively static in nature,

01:48:34   despite it still being a moving talking scene, it's more that the camera doesn't pan, it's

01:48:39   in a fixed position for a long period of time, etc.

01:48:41   This auto-dimming is to protect the TV from burn-in.

01:48:43   LG also has an additional option where it detects a fixed logo displayed on screen,

01:48:47   such as for sporting events or your HUD on, not Halo, Destiny.

01:48:52   And to auto-dim that part of the display only, the HDTVTest YouTube channel is shown how

01:48:56   to disable these two things using the service menu.

01:48:58   Note, you have to buy a special remote purely meant for the official LG technicians just

01:49:02   to get into the service menu.

01:49:04   So just by entering the service menu,

01:49:05   you can void your warranty as each TV logs the fact

01:49:08   that the service menu's been entered into

01:49:09   and also what changes were made.

01:49:11   So John, if it were you,

01:49:12   would you disable these auto-dimming features

01:49:14   given that they do irritate, well, in this case, Mark,

01:49:17   but I'm assuming they would irritate you too,

01:49:18   and Mark says, "I do notice the TV auto-dim,"

01:49:22   or would you leave them enabled

01:49:23   for the very reason that they've been implemented?

01:49:25   Another way of asking, what is the real likelihood

01:49:27   that the TV would get burn-in from watching shows and movies

01:49:29   with those features disabled?

01:49:32   - Well, obviously the answer for me

01:49:33   I would wait until I could buy a television that doesn't auto dim.

01:49:36   Like that was one of the first tests that HDTV Test did on the television that I ordered.

01:49:41   They had it next to one of the modern LG ones and they were showing like a movie or something,

01:49:45   like not some exotic test footage or whatever, just like real footage.

01:49:48   And the other television would auto dim because it's basically like the average brightness level.

01:49:54   Like if you have a scene where they're just like in a room and the brightness doesn't change a lot

01:49:58   because like they're just showing people talking in a room and one person, the other person,

01:50:01   but the overall average picture brightness stays about the same.

01:50:05   The TVU auto dimmed because it doesn't, you know, it's trying to defend against

01:50:08   burn-in by saying "oh it seems like you might be showing a very similar image on

01:50:11   the screen for a long period of time and so if this room is like

01:50:13   bright over here and dark over here I don't want to leave this playing for

01:50:16   five minutes because then you know you might get

01:50:18   image retention for the bright area that's up in the corner."

01:50:21   And the new television that I got with the

01:50:25   the Quantum.OLED screen, one of the advantages of Quantum.OLED is you

01:50:30   you could make the thing brighter,

01:50:31   but instead of making it brighter,

01:50:32   what they did was made it less prone to burn-in

01:50:36   by turning down the brightness.

01:50:38   Like it's trying less hard, right?

01:50:40   So the WRGB OLEDs are as bright as they can possibly be

01:50:45   without washing out the picture.

01:50:46   And the QD OLEDs, they have enough headroom

01:50:49   that they can sort of run them at 70%

01:50:52   and still have the same brightness as the other ones.

01:50:54   And they also have a heat sink behind them

01:50:55   to dissipate heat better.

01:50:57   And so it doesn't need to auto dim.

01:50:59   It says, I can run this scene all day,

01:51:02   and I'm not afraid of burning.

01:51:03   At least that's the theory, and that's the warranty

01:51:05   that's been behind some of the QDOLED screen

01:51:08   seems to indicate that the manufacturers think

01:51:09   that these screens will be less susceptible to burning.

01:51:12   So my answer to this question is,

01:51:15   if you can't get rid of your fancy new TV

01:51:18   and get an even fancier newer one,

01:51:21   is you should use the protection features,

01:51:22   because they're not there for the hell of it.

01:51:24   If these manufacturers could get rid of the features,

01:51:27   they would, because they know they get dinged for it

01:51:28   reviews. And they get things for users, right? They would not enable these features if they

01:51:34   thought they didn't need them. But you do need them. So how much do you need them, right? Well,

01:51:38   there's the famous artings.com OLED Burn-In test, and they did a multi-year Burn-In test.

01:51:44   Their test ended in 2019, so it's not relevant to modern televisions. Although the CX or CX,

01:51:52   I don't know how you're supposed to pronounce it, but it is the 10. It came after the C9.

01:51:56   that is not that much newer.

01:51:59   I think it's a 2020 or 2021 television.

01:52:01   But yeah, OLED burn-in is definitely a thing.

01:52:04   And if you wanna see it, go to that Artings page

01:52:06   and look in horror at what can happen to your television

01:52:09   if you watch MSNBC or something with a ticker

01:52:12   or watch sports, right?

01:52:13   And so, you may not like that little thing

01:52:16   that dims the logo or that dims your entire screen,

01:52:19   but the alternative is probably worse.

01:52:22   Now, all that said, you wanna live dangerously,

01:52:26   You say, guess what, I've decided in two years

01:52:28   I'm getting a new TV no matter what,

01:52:29   so go hop into that service menu, disable the feature,

01:52:32   and then if you get burned in the end of two years,

01:52:33   oh well, you were gonna buy a new TV anyway.

01:52:35   That is also an option, but it's not like they're,

01:52:38   you know, this is how they get you.

01:52:39   They put the auto-dimming in,

01:52:40   and you have to know the secret code to get in.

01:52:42   No, they're trying to protect your television,

01:52:43   so it's like, you know, what kind of content do you watch,

01:52:46   and do you care about burn-in?

01:52:49   And then you can decide based on that,

01:52:50   but don't think that, you know,

01:52:52   that you can enable this feature

01:52:54   and not face any consequences.

01:52:56   There will be consequences.

01:52:57   They just may be acceptable consequences.

01:52:59   Just decide that ahead of time.

01:53:01   - And Brian Lazars writes,

01:53:03   has John decided on a backup strategy for a dorm environment?

01:53:06   My daughter is heading off to college in the fall.

01:53:09   It's not like I can send her to school with a Synology.

01:53:11   Why not?

01:53:12   (bell ringing)

01:53:12   And I'm not sure she's going to be diligent

01:53:14   about backing up to an external drive.

01:53:16   - Yeah, I mean, the strategy for dorms

01:53:18   is the same strategy we should be.

01:53:19   For everyone, where possible,

01:53:21   is just do everything in the cloud, right?

01:53:22   The internet connections are fast enough these days,

01:53:25   especially for someone who's in a dorm

01:53:26   or you can't have any expectation

01:53:29   of having any kind of redundant local storage,

01:53:31   like you're just trying to get the kid

01:53:32   to not break their laptop or lose it or whatever.

01:53:36   Cloud storage for everything.

01:53:37   And from what I've seen from my kids' education

01:53:40   having been forced to use the Google tech,

01:53:42   been forced, been allowed to use the Google technologies

01:53:46   for all their education,

01:53:47   does everything in the cloud anyway.

01:53:48   They don't have any concept of saving.

01:53:50   You know, my daughter got this

01:53:51   screenplay writing application, I forget which one.

01:53:53   It might have been Highline, or I don't remember.

01:53:57   Some Mac native screenplay writing application,

01:53:59   I had to show her how to save.

01:54:01   She was just so used to it.

01:54:02   You just go to Google Docs and you just type.

01:54:04   And you don't ever have to worry about saving.

01:54:06   And where is it saved?

01:54:07   Oh, it's in Google Docs.

01:54:08   Where is Google Docs?

01:54:09   I don't know.

01:54:09   It's everywhere.

01:54:10   It's on my Chromebook.

01:54:11   It's on my Mac.

01:54:13   Cloud saves.

01:54:14   That is literally the only way that most young people can

01:54:17   keep track of anything is it is just in this place.

01:54:19   And this place that exists, this place is not on my phone.

01:54:22   this place is not on my iPad,

01:54:23   this place is not on my Chromebook,

01:54:25   this place is not on my laptop,

01:54:26   this place is somewhere else, it's in the cloud.

01:54:28   That's where everybody's stuff should be.

01:54:29   That is the only viable quote-unquote backup strategy

01:54:34   for our college environment, I feel like.

01:54:36   Obviously, in college you may get into a situation

01:54:39   where you have large data files

01:54:40   that you're doing in some lab in a class or whatever,

01:54:41   and then you will have to deal with file storage,

01:54:43   and there's no avoiding it

01:54:45   'cause it can't fit in the cloud.

01:54:46   But even then, they probably have a Google Drive

01:54:49   for the class that has tons of storage

01:54:51   you can put the stuff in, right?

01:54:53   Don't try to put a Synology in a dorm room.

01:54:55   Don't even bother with external--

01:54:56   - Aw, poo.

01:54:57   - Don't even bother with external time machine drives.

01:54:59   It's just not gonna work out.

01:55:01   They're just gonna spill a drink on it.

01:55:02   They're gonna unplug it when it's mounted,

01:55:04   and it's just, yeah, cloud storage.

01:55:07   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:55:09   Linode, Instabug, and businesscards.io,

01:55:12   and thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:55:14   You can join at atp.fm/join.

01:55:17   We will talk to you next week.

01:55:19   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:55:26   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:55:32   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:55:37   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:55:42   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:55:47   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:55:56   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:56:00   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:56:05   U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:56:08   It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:56:11   They didn't mean to accidental (accidental)

01:56:16   ♪ Tech, why'd it cost so long ♪

01:56:20   - I went on vacation last week,

01:56:24   and I had the strangest home kit experience,

01:56:29   which is weird because I was on vacation and not at home.

01:56:35   So I have to set the stage,

01:56:36   and I am already regretting bringing this up,

01:56:40   and you haven't even figured out what I'm gonna say,

01:56:43   but a while ago--

01:56:44   - I'm wondering how you had a home kit problem

01:56:46   when you weren't in your home, but go ahead.

01:56:49   - Yes, so it starts with me deciding

01:56:52   that it would be convenient to have one of our Apple TVs

01:56:57   in the vacation place with us,

01:56:59   'cause we're gonna be there for a week.

01:57:00   It would be nice to be able to watch some TV in the evening

01:57:03   and not have to hook up a computer or an iPad

01:57:05   or anything like that.

01:57:06   I have the 1080 Apple TV that I use in the bedroom

01:57:11   every great once in a while, very rarely, but it's there.

01:57:14   So I can easily unplug that and bring it

01:57:17   and that's what we did.

01:57:18   And I noticed, I don't remember exactly when it started

01:57:22   during the week that we were gone,

01:57:24   but I noticed that I was periodically getting

01:57:29   the notification that I get when I leave the house

01:57:31   saying yes, the garage door is indeed closed.

01:57:33   So what am I talking about?

01:57:34   So I set up an automation in HomeKit

01:57:37   that will, by a very convoluted series of steps,

01:57:42   will send me a push notification and say,

01:57:43   either the garage door's closed, you're good,

01:57:45   or oh my God, turn around, the garage door's open.

01:57:47   And it does this when the last person leaves the house.

01:57:49   So if I leave and Aaron's here, doesn't do anything.

01:57:51   If Aaron leaves and I'm here, doesn't do anything.

01:57:53   But if both of us leave,

01:57:54   even if we don't leave at the same time,

01:57:56   it will say, you know,

01:57:57   here's the status of the garage door.

01:57:59   And I'm getting these notifications

01:58:01   while I'm at the beach a couple hours away from my house.

01:58:06   And I'm getting them every great once in a while.

01:58:09   And I come to find out,

01:58:10   I mostly think that it started happening

01:58:14   when I left the beach house.

01:58:17   So somehow HomeKit has decided

01:58:21   that home is not where the heart is.

01:58:24   It is not where my home is.

01:58:26   It is instead where the Apple TV

01:58:28   that I happen to bring with me is.

01:58:31   (laughing)

01:58:32   - I had a similar situation on my vacation

01:58:34   because every time I left the house that I was staying at,

01:58:38   it would say, "Oh my God,

01:58:39   Did you realize you left your AirPods behind?

01:58:41   Oh my God, did you realize you left your iPad behind?

01:58:43   - Yep, yep, yep.

01:58:44   - 'Cause I'm leaving a place that is not my home

01:58:46   without my devices.

01:58:47   And I was thinking, I was thinking that I wish I did

01:58:50   the opposite of what Casey's saying.

01:58:51   Casey's saying, why do you think this is my new home?

01:58:53   I was thinking, I wish I could tell HomeKit or whatever,

01:58:57   this is not my new home, but for the week, this is my home.

01:59:00   So every time I leave, don't tell me I've left my AirPods

01:59:02   behind because it's fine.

01:59:03   - Yep, I could not agree with you more.

01:59:05   I had the same thought.

01:59:06   But it took me quite a while to figure out what is going on.

01:59:11   And I think what happened is the Apple TV in the bedroom, despite being an older Apple

01:59:16   TV, because we have a 4K Apple TV downstairs, and remember we don't have any HomePods in

01:59:20   the house, so the Apple TVs are our HomeKit hubs, I think that the primary HomeKit hub

01:59:28   was the bedroom Apple TV that was with us in Cape Charles.

01:59:32   And so it suddenly decided that home, again, is not my actual address, but rather wherever

01:59:37   that Apple TV is.

01:59:40   This was sort of kind of confirmed to me, I think, because when I got back home, you

01:59:45   remember that I have the little dongle that gives me wireless CarPlay, so I'm basically

01:59:49   always on CarPlay in my car.

01:59:51   And what's cool, one of the cool things about CarPlay is when you approach your house, if

01:59:55   you have a garage door set up in HomeKit, on that like multi-tiled, or the tiled version

02:00:01   of the CarPlay screen, it will pop up a little button that says, "Oh, your garage door is

02:00:06   closed," so you can tap on it and it'll open the garage door for you. Well, that just stopped

02:00:09   appearing. And I thought to myself, "I wonder if it's because my home is still in Cape Charles,

02:00:16   despite the fact that the Apple TV is back at my actual freaking house. I think my home

02:00:21   might be Cape Charles. So what do I do about this?" So what I decided to do...

02:00:25   Move to the beach full-time.

02:00:26   Oh, yeah, not all of us have that luxury, Marco. Not all of us have that luxury.

02:00:30   So I decided, okay, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna turn off the HomeKit features or hub or

02:00:36   whatever in the Apple TV in the bedroom, which I did. And then it appeared that the Apple TV that

02:00:44   has always been in the family room just didn't feel like taking over. So, okay. So I tried

02:00:51   disconnecting it from the home and reconnecting it. That didn't seem to work. So what do you think

02:00:56   it took to get the downstairs Apple TV to wake up and reconnect to the house appropriately.

02:01:01   What is the one way you fix all Apple problems these days?

02:01:05   Unplug it and plug it back in?

02:01:07   Yeah, I rebooted it. Yeah, so I went to settings and rebooted it,

02:01:10   and then it seemed to come back to life, and I'll give you one guess what showed up in CarPlay as

02:01:14   soon as I did that. My garage door is back in CarPlay now. So I don't know what I was supposed

02:01:22   to do about this? Like I can't, I don't even know if I'm upset about this

02:01:27   because like I understand I think why this happened but I don't want this to

02:01:34   happen. What I want is to be able to bring an Apple TV somewhere else, have it

02:01:39   understand that my home is not there. I mean I do have a contact card that is me.

02:01:46   I've marked it as me it has a home address in it and

02:01:49   I

02:01:51   Got to assume via like you know IP geolocation if nothing else the Apple TV realized it was no longer at home

02:01:56   Certainly wasn't on the same network as the rest of my darn home kit thing your devices

02:02:00   So it should have I think been smart enough to figure out that it was in some sort of satellite mode

02:02:07   And I wish I could have told it your and what I've done is just disabled homekit

02:02:11   you know, home kit hub features on it entirely,

02:02:15   but I wish there was a way for it to be smart enough

02:02:17   to figure out, oh, I should not be a hub right now.

02:02:19   And I concur with what John said, you know,

02:02:21   I kept getting notifications,

02:02:22   oh, your AirTag that's in your laptop bag,

02:02:24   you left it, you left it, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God,

02:02:25   oh my God, you left it, ah!

02:02:27   And I wish there was a way for me to say,

02:02:29   people, just for a week, not a year, not a month,

02:02:34   just for a few days.

02:02:35   Or imagine this, imagine I had the option to pick

02:02:39   when I wanted this thing to end,

02:02:41   But for some duration of time, don't alarm me,

02:02:44   don't alert me if I have left the house without my stuff.

02:02:48   Just for a few days.

02:02:50   That would be very nice, please and thank you.

02:02:52   Anyway, I bring all this up just because

02:02:53   it was such a weird scenario

02:02:55   that I never would have expected.

02:02:58   And last year, when I think I had

02:03:00   all of this notification BS set up,

02:03:02   I don't remember any of this happening last year.

02:03:04   So I don't know why it didn't,

02:03:06   but I feel like I think I had both Apple TVs at the time,

02:03:09   I think.

02:03:10   and I don't recall any of this being a problem.

02:03:13   So it was very weird, and if you've lived through this

02:03:16   and have tips, please write me some way somehow.

02:03:19   - Well, I will say that the Find My alerts,

02:03:22   you can set a location and say,

02:03:25   don't remind me about leaving things at this location.

02:03:27   - Agreed, but I didn't want that forever.

02:03:29   - Where is that feature?

02:03:30   'Cause I didn't look for it.

02:03:31   - It's in the Find My app.

02:03:33   It's in one of those drawers from the bottom.

02:03:35   You gotta pull it up somewhere in there.

02:03:37   - I thought you could do that

02:03:38   on the notification itself, too.

02:03:40   I thought I might be wrong about that.

02:03:42   Or like customize it or something like that

02:03:43   when the notification comes up.

02:03:44   - You might have to do it per item.

02:03:47   I think you have to do it per thing in Find My.

02:03:50   But if you go to Find My and you go to the things tab,

02:03:53   there is an option on there to say

02:03:55   don't remind me about this location, basically.

02:03:58   - Yeah, I'm not seeing, I know what you're thinking of

02:04:00   and I have done that for my house.

02:04:02   But for the life of me, I don't know where it is

02:04:04   off the top of my head.

02:04:06   But yes, I know there is a way to do that.

02:04:08   I just don't know what it is.

02:04:09   But I mean the rest of it, things with like

02:04:11   home detection and home hub selection and failover,

02:04:16   that is mostly a mystery to me.

02:04:19   It's one of those areas where Apple tries to be

02:04:21   just smart and do the right thing.

02:04:23   And what that means is it works fine in the common case

02:04:28   for most people most of the time.

02:04:30   But when it doesn't work, you have no idea,

02:04:33   no recourse, nothing you can really do

02:04:36   except these random incantations that may or may not

02:04:39   result in the problem eventually, gradually,

02:04:42   in some weird way being fixed.

02:04:44   - You just want a screen where you can see,

02:04:46   Apple devices, what do you think is the deal?

02:04:48   Show me, show me, I think my home is here,

02:04:50   and I think this is it, like just, you know,

02:04:52   part of it might be just the data model,

02:04:54   we talked about this before,

02:04:55   about like what is a decent data model for music,

02:04:57   which is a surprisingly complex subject.

02:05:00   What is the data model for HomeKit?

02:05:01   Like, does it incorporate the idea

02:05:03   that people might be at some place other than their home

02:05:06   for extended periods of time?

02:05:08   You know, how many homes can you have?

02:05:10   What is the concept of a home?

02:05:11   Is there a concept of a location?

02:05:14   You know, that when you leave there,

02:05:16   it's okay for you to leave your devices behind

02:05:17   because that's, you know, like,

02:05:19   I don't know what kind of vocabulary

02:05:20   they have to describe that, but either way,

02:05:24   whatever the vocabulary is, there should be something

02:05:26   you can go to and says,

02:05:27   "Here's how we think the world exists right now."

02:05:30   Even if you can't edit it, at least that would help,

02:05:32   but then ideally, what you'd see there is, you know,

02:05:35   how many homes do you have, or like in context,

02:05:36   If you have multiple homes, what order are they in?

02:05:38   Are you at them for a certain duration or whatever?

02:05:41   It seems like their data model should support this,

02:05:44   and once their data model supports it,

02:05:46   they shouldn't just try to do like,

02:05:47   we'll use machine learning and prediction

02:05:49   to do the right thing.

02:05:49   All right, fine, maybe do that,

02:05:51   but also still have a screen where you can actually say,

02:05:53   I will be at this address for the next week.

02:05:56   I think that's all you need to tell it,

02:05:58   and it just needs to be a UI,

02:06:00   someplace in the interface that we can find.

02:06:02   I just looked and find mine.

02:06:03   I couldn't find it in two seconds.

02:06:04   - Yeah, I couldn't either,

02:06:05   but I know it's there somewhere.

02:06:06   - It should be more prominent.

02:06:07   I should be able to say, for any HomeKit type things,

02:06:10   where do you think my house is, HomeKit?

02:06:12   What device are you using as a hub?

02:06:14   - Well, that you can see.

02:06:16   So if you go to Home Settings, which is buried,

02:06:20   but it's under the house icon in the Home app,

02:06:22   you go to the Home screen,

02:06:24   then go to the house icon in the top,

02:06:26   then there's a Home Settings thing,

02:06:29   and there's, under there, you can see Home Hubs and Bridges.

02:06:32   And in my case, I have eight.

02:06:34   Now I love this screen so much

02:06:35   because it purports to be useful but isn't.

02:06:37   So Home Hubs and Bridges, right now I have various home pods

02:06:42   and something called living room Apple TV

02:06:46   and then something called downstairs downstairs.

02:06:48   - Nice.

02:06:49   - I assume that's the Apple TV

02:06:51   that I renamed the AirPlay target to downstairs,

02:06:54   but it's called downstairs downstairs

02:06:55   and that says connected

02:06:58   and all the other ones say standby.

02:07:00   So you would think maybe on this list

02:07:03   of home hubs and bridges that tells me

02:07:04   which one is connected.

02:07:05   - You can tap on them surely, right?

02:07:07   - Maybe you could select one to be the one that's connected.

02:07:10   Or maybe you could delete one.

02:07:13   You can do neither.

02:07:14   This is simply a passive list.

02:07:16   All you can do is look at it and smile.

02:07:18   So I would love, for instance, to say,

02:07:21   prioritize the two Apple TVs,

02:07:24   because they are hard-wired to ethernet.

02:07:27   They are AC-powered.

02:07:29   They are guaranteed to always be online and ready to go.

02:07:32   Home pods are flaky pieces of crap.

02:07:36   (laughing)

02:07:37   And I don't want my entire home automation strategy

02:07:41   to be resting on the reliability of a home pod

02:07:44   when I have these perfectly good Apple TVs

02:07:46   that can do the same job, slightly more reliably probably.

02:07:49   And I would love to be able to say, hey, this thing,

02:07:52   make this thing the preferred home hub.

02:07:55   Nope, can't do it.

02:07:56   All I can do is look at this list

02:07:57   and wonder why I can't do the things

02:07:59   that seem so obvious on it.

02:08:01   Maybe you could add home, like that's in the home app.

02:08:03   See, that seems wrong in terms of data model.

02:08:06   I'm going to be at this vacation house for a week,

02:08:07   so I'll add it as my home.

02:08:08   But that seems too heavyweight.

02:08:10   It's not your home.

02:08:11   You're just at a place where you're a hotel.

02:08:13   This hotel is now my home for a week, kind of.

02:08:16   But it seems too much.

02:08:19   I feel like this use case is something they should work on.

02:08:22   Because I know we have been doing a lot of travel

02:08:24   with the pandemic and everything.

02:08:25   But what about business travelers?

02:08:27   They go somewhere, and they leave their iPad

02:08:30   and their AirPods in the hotel room when they go out to eat,

02:08:32   they don't need seven notifications telling them,

02:08:34   oh, you left your stuff behind.

02:08:35   It's like, yeah, it's in my hotel room.

02:08:37   - I mean, in all fairness, though,

02:08:38   I do think that the main weirdness of this

02:08:42   was probably a result of Casey bringing one of his home hubs

02:08:47   to a hotel room outside of his home and connecting to it.

02:08:52   And that's probably a situation

02:08:54   that Apple has not really designed for,

02:08:56   that they probably assumed what kind of weird nerve

02:09:00   would bring an Apple TV to a hotel room.

02:09:02   - Which is fair.

02:09:03   - I do it, Casey does it.

02:09:04   Like when I went on vacation,

02:09:07   I'm visiting other family members.

02:09:08   My brother brought his Apple TV with him

02:09:10   for the same reason I brought mine, right?

02:09:12   And although we passed the milestone this year,

02:09:14   the television in the rental place already supports AirPlay.

02:09:18   So it's like when we were in AirPlay too,

02:09:20   you could say AirPlay to the Apple TV that's connected to it

02:09:22   or AirPlay just to the television, right?

02:09:24   So maybe we're getting close to a point

02:09:27   where we won't have to bring Apple TV pucks with us

02:09:29   so we can just assume that the television is there.

02:09:32   Just like they all support Netflix now

02:09:33   and have a giant Netflix button on their remotes,

02:09:35   that they'll also have an Apple TV plus button

02:09:37   that you'll somehow be able to sign into

02:09:40   to see all your kids' shows.

02:09:41   I don't know how it's gonna work,

02:09:42   but at least you can airplay it to the TV

02:09:43   so there's some progress.

02:09:45   (beeping)