ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► We have to start with some housekeeping right away.

00:00:02 ◼   ► Happy birthday, Marco.

00:00:04 ◼   ► You are 40 years old in what, like six days?

00:00:06 ◼   ► - Something like that, yeah, five.

00:00:08 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:00:09 ◼   ► How you feeling?

00:00:10 ◼   ► - We've heard our friend Merlin always joke about

00:00:12 ◼   ► like, you know, getting older and he like,

00:00:14 ◼   ► apparently injured his ankle while sleeping

00:00:16 ◼   ► a few weeks ago.

00:00:17 ◼   ► And I have now, I was 40 for like 72 hours.

00:00:21 ◼   ► I woke up one morning, like a half hour

00:00:24 ◼   ► before my alarm was supposed to go off.

00:00:26 ◼   ► I thought, oh crap.

00:00:27 ◼   ► I convinced myself, all right, let's go back to sleep.

00:00:29 ◼   ► half hour later I wake up, I can't move.

00:00:32 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:00:33 ◼   ► So literally in that half hour,

00:00:36 ◼   ► I had somehow slept on my neck or shoulder

00:00:40 ◼   ► in some weird way that,

00:00:42 ◼   ► and like I do a lot of like core and flexibility exercises,

00:00:47 ◼   ► I am usually very healthy in these areas,

00:00:50 ◼   ► and yet somehow 72 hours after I turned 40,

00:00:55 ◼   ► I slept for 30 minutes and broke myself

00:00:57 ◼   ► and can't twist my body for two days now.

00:01:01 ◼   ► It's slowly getting better, but I'm like, oh my God.

00:01:03 ◼   ► Wow, that comes on quickly.

00:01:06 ◼   ► - I feel like the warranty doesn't run out

00:01:09 ◼   ► until the mid-40s, so I'm not sure what this is.

00:01:11 ◼   ► - I don't know, man.

00:01:12 ◼   ► I genuinely feel this is such a boring thing

00:01:15 ◼   ► for three old white guys to wind about

00:01:16 ◼   ► being three old white guys, but here we are.

00:01:19 ◼   ► But no, I feel like once I hit 35,

00:01:21 ◼   ► things that never ever used to bother me

00:01:24 ◼   ► started to occasionally bother me,

00:01:26 ◼   ► And I didn't have the planned obsolescence

00:01:28 ◼   ► of 40 in three days that you have had,

00:01:31 ◼   ► but I definitely will bend wrong

00:01:35 ◼   ► and can't twist my back for a week

00:01:38 ◼   ► or whatever the case may be.

00:01:39 ◼   ► Like all sorts of weird ailments

00:01:40 ◼   ► or I'll cough the wrong way

00:01:43 ◼   ► and suddenly my abdomen hurts for a day or two.

00:01:45 ◼   ► And I also, I'm not saying I exercise more or less

00:01:48 ◼   ► than Marco, but I exercise every day.

00:01:51 ◼   ► Again, maybe not the same way, maybe not as strenuously,

00:01:54 ◼   ► but I exercise every single day.

00:01:56 ◼   ► And I am probably the healthiest I've ever been in my life,

00:01:59 ◼   ► or at least certainly the strongest.

00:02:01 ◼   ► And yet still, if I look at something the wrong way,

00:02:05 ◼   ► suddenly like an entirely opposite end of my body is broken.

00:02:08 ◼   ► So yeah.

00:02:09 ◼   ► - Well, I don't understand how this is happening to Marco.

00:02:12 ◼   ► 'Cause like I said on Twitter,

00:02:13 ◼   ► Marco is I think probably also

00:02:14 ◼   ► in probably the best shape of his life.

00:02:16 ◼   ► He's got rid of his banana allergy.

00:02:18 ◼   ► He's all trim and buff and doing all these exercises.

00:02:22 ◼   ► And like what-- - Well, not trim.

00:02:23 ◼   ► - Well, trim-er.

00:02:25 ◼   ► - Yes, well, yeah, I'm very strong in certain ways

00:02:30 ◼   ► I am not trim.

00:02:30 ◼   ► That's not a thing.

00:02:33 ◼   ► - Anyway, either way, you've definitely sort of had

00:02:35 ◼   ► a mid-life rally here, but now this whole sleep thing

00:02:38 ◼   ► has really set you back.

00:02:39 ◼   ► - I know, and like, ever since I got more serious

00:02:41 ◼   ► about fitness a few years ago and started doing

00:02:43 ◼   ► more and more stuff, having the trainer and everything,

00:02:46 ◼   ► like, our trainer's awesome, like, we'll do things

00:02:48 ◼   ► that exercise muscles that I didn't even know existed.

00:02:52 ◼   ► So like, you know, most of the problems most people have

00:02:54 ◼   ► when they're doing fitness stuff on their own,

00:02:56 ◼   ► maybe you go to a gym, maybe you have like a treadmill

00:02:59 ◼   ► or a bike at home, whatever it is,

00:03:01 ◼   ► usually most people can think of a few top hit muscle groups

00:03:04 ◼   ► that you should work and you don't think of everything else

00:03:06 ◼   ► 'cause you're not a trainer,

00:03:07 ◼   ► you're not a professional in that area, you know?

00:03:09 ◼   ► I love our trainers so much because we,

00:03:11 ◼   ► it's always a variety of stuff we're doing

00:03:12 ◼   ► and it's always extra, all sorts of different muscles

00:03:14 ◼   ► like your inner hips or like, you know,

00:03:17 ◼   ► weird side bending things or something.

00:03:19 ◼   ► It's like stuff that you would never think

00:03:21 ◼   ► to even know how to exercise on your own,

00:03:22 ◼   ► let alone to do it correctly.

00:03:25 ◼   ► And so I'm very fortunate to have that.

00:03:26 ◼   ► And I've been able to avoid,

00:03:28 ◼   ► I don't have any RSI problems anymore.

00:03:30 ◼   ► I've been able to avoid lots of back problems I used to have.

00:03:34 ◼   ► That's all gone and fixed.

00:03:35 ◼   ► Well, asterisk it was.

00:03:37 ◼   ► I mean, it was fixed until last weekend when I turned 40.

00:03:41 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:03:43 ◼   ► But it's just, I've put in all,

00:03:45 ◼   ► and I guess this is why you put in the work, right?

00:03:49 ◼   ► You put in all that work.

00:03:50 ◼   ► You do all the fitness stuff because, yeah,

00:03:53 ◼   ► when you're 19, you're made of rubber

00:03:55 ◼   ► and you can do whatever you want and you won't get hurt.

00:03:59 ◼   ► But as you approach and then cross 40,

00:04:02 ◼   ► these things start adding up.

00:04:04 ◼   ► I'm so glad that I do all that stuff

00:04:07 ◼   ► because I can't imagine,

00:04:08 ◼   ► I'd probably be in way worse condition,

00:04:10 ◼   ► like I'm sure I'd be hurting constantly,

00:04:13 ◼   ► if I wasn't doing all the exercise stuff that I do.

00:04:16 ◼   ► And it's, oh my god, it's so disheartening

00:04:20 ◼   ► to somehow like sleep wrong for a half hour

00:04:23 ◼   ► and be hurting for two days.

00:04:25 ◼   ► - Shoulda got MarcoCare+.

00:04:27 ◼   ► (beeping)

00:04:29 ◼   ► - Speaking of which, I have unplugged my HomePods.

00:04:34 ◼   ► (Brennan gasps)

00:04:35 ◼   ► - Are you okay?

00:04:36 ◼   ► - They just don't work anymore.

00:04:37 ◼   ► Like they've, in the last couple of weeks,

00:04:40 ◼   ► I don't think I've gotten the stereo pairing to work once.

00:04:43 ◼   ► - Oh no.

00:04:44 ◼   ► - It's been such a rollercoaster.

00:04:45 ◼   ► They've gone up and down, you know,

00:04:47 ◼   ► we've had good times and bad times.

00:04:49 ◼   ► And this time, it just, they are so broken.

00:04:53 ◼   ► Like they're so unreliable in so many different ways.

00:04:56 ◼   ► They're slow, they don't respond to things.

00:04:58 ◼   ► They forget what they're saying halfway.

00:05:00 ◼   ► It's just everything about them is just broken.

00:05:03 ◼   ► They don't work reliably anymore.

00:05:04 ◼   ► And so I'm officially decommissioning them.

00:05:07 ◼   ► I unplugged them.

00:05:08 ◼   ► I actually, this is embarrassing.

00:05:11 ◼   ► I got some stupid thing from B&O.

00:05:14 ◼   ► It was supposed to be a really good replacement

00:05:16 ◼   ► And it lasted like two seconds on the counter

00:05:19 ◼   ► before it was rejected by the historical committee.

00:05:21 ◼   ► But it wasn't even good enough to keep,

00:05:24 ◼   ► like if I'm honest, it wasn't good enough

00:05:25 ◼   ► to be worth the stupid price.

00:05:27 ◼   ► So what I did now, I just plugged in a HomePod mini

00:05:31 ◼   ► up there which is not even close to sounding good

00:05:35 ◼   ► in the relatively large room it's placed in.

00:05:38 ◼   ► 'Cause of course, it's a tiny little thing.

00:05:40 ◼   ► But I just, I wish Apple would fix the HomePod

00:05:44 ◼   ► and release a new big one.

00:05:45 ◼   ► because whatever they're doing with the Mini,

00:05:48 ◼   ► I don't wanna drill this into the ground,

00:05:49 ◼   ► but whatever they're doing with the Mini,

00:05:51 ◼   ► it's clearly running a different software stack

00:05:53 ◼   ► than the big one.

00:05:53 ◼   ► It's certainly a different hardware stack,

00:05:55 ◼   ► but I think the software stack is very different as well.

00:05:57 ◼   ► And so the big one just is so much more broken

00:06:01 ◼   ► in so many more ways.

00:06:02 ◼   ► The small one seems to work pretty well.

00:06:03 ◼   ► We have a few small ones around the house.

00:06:04 ◼   ► They seem to work pretty well.

00:06:06 ◼   ► The big ones just don't anymore.

00:06:07 ◼   ► And on one hand, I feel very burned

00:06:10 ◼   ► in the sense that these were expensive

00:06:12 ◼   ► and they aren't that old,

00:06:14 ◼   ► and they're already pretty much not functioning.

00:06:18 ◼   ► So on one hand I kinda feel burned.

00:06:20 ◼   ► On the other hand, I'm looking around the environment

00:06:24 ◼   ► and I'm like, I still just want Apple to make a good one.

00:06:26 ◼   ► I don't trust anyone else to do this

00:06:29 ◼   ► because I've looked around the market

00:06:31 ◼   ► and there just isn't anything good.

00:06:32 ◼   ► So I don't know what to do.

00:06:35 ◼   ► That's gonna be an ongoing thing.

00:06:36 ◼   ► I'm also, I'm kind of upset

00:06:37 ◼   ► because I also had to just replace my iPad keyboard

00:06:40 ◼   ► 'cause it died.

00:06:42 ◼   ► - Oh. - Did it just turn 40?

00:06:44 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:06:46 ◼   ► - It is about four, it's almost four, so that's--

00:06:50 ◼   ► - It's 40 in overpriced accessory years.

00:06:52 ◼   ► - Right, you multiply it by 10 and yeah.

00:06:53 ◼   ► - Well, you know, which keyboard,

00:06:55 ◼   ► the floaty one or the not floaty one?

00:06:57 ◼   ► - The one that came out in 2018,

00:06:59 ◼   ► the Folio without the trackpad.

00:07:00 ◼   ► - Oh, okay, 'cause I was gonna say the floaty one

00:07:03 ◼   ► came out like early on in the pandemic, if I'm not mistaken.

00:07:05 ◼   ► So it wouldn't be four years old,

00:07:08 ◼   ► but no, I didn't realize, okay.

00:07:10 ◼   ► - I don't care for that one on the 11 inch

00:07:12 ◼   ► because, well, either side, just 'cause I'm not that much

00:07:15 ◼   ► of an iPad power user and it's so big and bulky

00:07:18 ◼   ► and expensive and the combined object you get

00:07:22 ◼   ► with the Magic Keyboard, which is the one you're talking

00:07:24 ◼   ► about with the trackpad, the combined object you get,

00:07:26 ◼   ► I did not like, I thought it was clunky,

00:07:29 ◼   ► I didn't like how hard it was to move the hinge

00:07:30 ◼   ► and it was very heavy and it was just like, forget it.

00:07:34 ◼   ► But I like the regular keyboard folios they've been making

00:07:37 ◼   ► since the iPad Pro forever ago.

00:07:39 ◼   ► I like those, those are great.

00:07:41 ◼   ► Those are like almost $200, like 160, 170 usually.

00:07:45 ◼   ► So they're almost 200 bucks.

00:07:46 ◼   ► They do die eventually.

00:07:48 ◼   ► We got one for my father-in-law a few years back,

00:07:51 ◼   ► and his just died this past year.

00:07:53 ◼   ► I've had one other one die before this.

00:07:56 ◼   ► Mine just died again.

00:07:58 ◼   ► And it seems like it's an electronic thing.

00:08:02 ◼   ► It's not a key switch failing thing.

00:08:03 ◼   ► It's something with the controller electronics

00:08:05 ◼   ► where it just won't appear to the iPad anymore.

00:08:09 ◼   ► The iPad will just think there's no keyboard connected,

00:08:10 ◼   ► and you can pop it off, pop it back on,

00:08:12 ◼   ► and it might reconnect, eventually that stops working.

00:08:15 ◼   ► Over time, even that doesn't work anymore.

00:08:17 ◼   ► It doesn't seem to be a dirty contacts thing,

00:08:19 ◼   ► it's like try cleaning the contacts, it's not that.

00:08:21 ◼   ► It just seems like these keyboards just die so often.

00:08:23 ◼   ► So worth pointing out, if you're gonna buy a $200,

00:08:26 ◼   ► or if you get the Magic Keyboard,

00:08:28 ◼   ► a $330, I think, dollar iPad keyboard.

00:08:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, whatever it is, it's a lot.

00:08:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, be aware they only last a few years.

00:08:35 ◼   ► Which again, I'm not happy about that either.

00:08:37 ◼   ► And through other various, this is,

00:08:39 ◼   ► I don't wanna make this too much of the Marco Show,

00:08:40 ◼   ► but through other various things that are mostly boring,

00:08:44 ◼   ► in the last couple of days, I have ordered both a new iPad

00:08:48 ◼   ► and a new iPhone for various reasons and family needs

00:08:52 ◼   ► and things like that off cycle.

00:08:55 ◼   ► And it feels really dirty.

00:08:56 ◼   ► I'm like, I know new stuff in both of those areas

00:09:00 ◼   ► is going to come out in a few months,

00:09:02 ◼   ► but I need them now.

00:09:04 ◼   ► So it's like I'm just, I'm becoming a normal person.

00:09:06 ◼   ► I have to just buy stuff and kinda not care

00:09:08 ◼   ► for these particular roles,

00:09:09 ◼   ► like well this thing's gonna be replaced

00:09:10 ◼   ► in a couple of months.

00:09:11 ◼   ► - Done 'em plenty of times too,

00:09:13 ◼   ► getting kids phones and stuff

00:09:15 ◼   ► when they don't wanna hand me down

00:09:16 ◼   ► or when they break a hand me down

00:09:17 ◼   ► and they need a new phone now

00:09:18 ◼   ► and you know a new one's coming in two months,

00:09:19 ◼   ► they just gotta buy.

00:09:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've been eyeing an M1 iPad Pro

00:09:23 ◼   ► 'cause as I've said many times,

00:09:25 ◼   ► I'm on the 2018 iPad Pro,

00:09:26 ◼   ► which honestly still runs really well.

00:09:29 ◼   ► Like it's not brand new and the battery is a little eh,

00:09:31 ◼   ► but all things considered,

00:09:33 ◼   ► this thing is four years old or thereabouts

00:09:35 ◼   ► and it runs really well.

00:09:37 ◼   ► and i hear what you're saying about magic keyboard the flotie keyboard it is

00:09:41 ◼   ► heavy and bulky i disagree about the hinge but otherwise i agree with

00:09:43 ◼   ► everything you said

00:09:44 ◼   ► uh... but i i do really like it and i like uh... maybe i'm just easily news

00:09:48 ◼   ► but i like having a track that from time to time

00:09:51 ◼   ► so i still really like my pad but i'm looking at you know the beta and and

00:09:55 ◼   ► uh... center stage or whatever heck it's called no not center stage i'm doing

00:09:58 ◼   ► this stage manager

00:09:59 ◼   ► thank you stage manager

00:10:00 ◼   ► uh... and and i'm looking at not having an m one i pet program thinking mister

00:10:04 ◼   ► Should I get an iPad?

00:10:05 ◼   ► It's about time to upgrade, but no, I should wait.

00:10:07 ◼   ► Shouldn't I?

00:10:08 ◼   ► I should wait.

00:10:09 ◼   ► I should definitely wait.

00:10:10 ◼   ► - That's one of the reasons I upgraded.

00:10:11 ◼   ► So I didn't even have an iPad for most,

00:10:14 ◼   ► I don't even have a TV.

00:10:15 ◼   ► I didn't even have an iPad for most of the last year

00:10:19 ◼   ► because as my kid's iPad was breaking

00:10:22 ◼   ► and we were awaiting that product to be updated,

00:10:25 ◼   ► as that was happening, I lent him mine

00:10:26 ◼   ► for a span of a number of months.

00:10:28 ◼   ► So, and I just didn't have one for a while.

00:10:30 ◼   ► I hardly ever used the iPad.

00:10:31 ◼   ► However, now I have significant reason

00:10:34 ◼   ► to have an iPad for testing,

00:10:36 ◼   ► because now my app became a lot more resizable on the iPad.

00:10:40 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:41 ◼   ► And I have to really make sure that works.

00:10:43 ◼   ► And you can do, I think you can do some testing

00:10:45 ◼   ► in the simulator, but anyway.

00:10:46 ◼   ► So at the same time as I was thinking,

00:10:48 ◼   ► 'cause again, I too have the 2018 11-inch iPad Pro.

00:10:53 ◼   ► And it's because, you know, for my uses it's fine.

00:10:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I really do wanna point that out one more time.

00:10:59 ◼   ► I know I said it a second ago,

00:11:00 ◼   ► But this is a four year old device that,

00:11:03 ◼   ► for the sorts of things that Marco and I are doing

00:11:05 ◼   ► up until now, it's been fine.

00:11:07 ◼   ► Like it doesn't feel slow,

00:11:09 ◼   ► it doesn't feel like a four year old device.

00:11:11 ◼   ► It's actually held up stunningly well.

00:11:14 ◼   ► And I feel like we should applaud Apple for that.

00:11:16 ◼   ► But that being said, somebody buy me an M1 iPad Pro, please.

00:11:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, well that's the conclusion I came to.

00:11:22 ◼   ► Is like, I wanted a stage manager test device,

00:11:26 ◼   ► and I looked at the Air, I looked at the Pro,

00:11:28 ◼   ► and basically the pro could get to me faster.

00:11:31 ◼   ► And separately from that, I also,

00:11:33 ◼   ► there's a new role in my life for boring reasons,

00:11:37 ◼   ► but I now could use an iPad again,

00:11:39 ◼   ► like on a regular basis,

00:11:41 ◼   ► I kinda need like a separate device.

00:11:42 ◼   ► I need an iPad.

00:11:44 ◼   ► The iPad I currently own,

00:11:46 ◼   ► oh, and like over on my side of my desk

00:11:48 ◼   ► is Tiff's old 12.9 inch iPad, the previous Gen 1.

00:11:53 ◼   ► So I have the 12.9 and the 11, both from 2018,

00:11:57 ◼   ► sitting around not doing anything.

00:11:59 ◼   ► Meanwhile, I need an M1 version for testing.

00:12:02 ◼   ► - Man, that hurts.

00:12:03 ◼   ► - So I'm just like, all right,

00:12:04 ◼   ► so I did the Apple trade-in for both of them,

00:12:07 ◼   ► and the combined trade-in for both of them

00:12:08 ◼   ► gets me the cheapest M1 iPad, so I'm just like,

00:12:12 ◼   ► - Oh, nice. - I'll trade these two in

00:12:14 ◼   ► for the one I actually want,

00:12:16 ◼   ► and spend the $200 on a new keyboard,

00:12:18 ◼   ► and call it a day. (laughs)

00:12:20 ◼   ► - So wait, what's the story with the iPhone?

00:12:22 ◼   ► - Oh, and so that's a separate thing.

00:12:24 ◼   ► So that's a family member finally has accepted an iPhone.

00:12:29 ◼   ► And so for various reasons, not my kid,

00:12:33 ◼   ► just an older family member, finally,

00:12:34 ◼   ► we've been trying to get them on an iPhone for a long time,

00:12:35 ◼   ► we finally did, they agreed to take my old iPhone 12 mini.

00:12:40 ◼   ► Currently, before that, my main testing iPhones

00:12:44 ◼   ► for testing my app on different Apple IDs

00:12:46 ◼   ► and different store configurations, stuff like that,

00:12:48 ◼   ► and different OS versions,

00:12:49 ◼   ► my testing setup has been an iPhone 7

00:12:52 ◼   ► and my iPhone 12 mini.

00:12:54 ◼   ► Well, the 12 mini you just have to give in a way

00:12:56 ◼   ► and the iPhone 7 doesn't run iOS 16.

00:12:59 ◼   ► So I'm like, all right,

00:13:01 ◼   ► I could really use one more iPhone.

00:13:05 ◼   ► And so I went on Amazon and bought their refurbished,

00:13:08 ◼   ► renewed crap, used iPhone 13 mini.

00:13:13 ◼   ► So that way I will have the best mini phone

00:13:17 ◼   ► that was ever made, paid almost nothing for it

00:13:20 ◼   ► relatively to its new price.

00:13:22 ◼   ► And that will be a new good test phone, because it is both mini,

00:13:26 ◼   ► so it's cool, and I'll be happy when I pick it up.

00:13:28 ◼   ► And also, I can run all the latest stuff on it.

00:13:32 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by Collide,

00:13:34 ◼   ► a new take on endpoint management that asks,

00:13:37 ◼   ► how can we get end users more involved?

00:13:39 ◼   ► In contrast to old school device management tools like MDM,

00:13:42 ◼   ► which lock down your employees' devices

00:13:44 ◼   ► without considering their needs or even

00:13:46 ◼   ► attempting to educate them about the security of their laptop.

00:13:49 ◼   ► Collide is built by like-minded security practitioners who in the past saw just how much MDM was disrupting

00:13:55 ◼   ► their end users, often frustrating them so much they would just throw their hands up

00:13:58 ◼   ► and switch to using their personal laptops without telling anyone.

00:14:03 ◼   ► So Collide is different.

00:14:05 ◼   ► Instead of locking down a device, Collide takes a user-focused approach that communicates

00:14:09 ◼   ► security recommendations to your employees directly on Slack.

00:14:13 ◼   ► After Collide, device security turns from a black and white state into a dynamic conversation

00:14:18 ◼   ► that starts with the end users installing the endpoint

00:14:20 ◼   ► agent on their own through a guided process that happens

00:14:24 ◼   ► right inside their first Slack message.

00:14:26 ◼   ► From there, Collide regularly sends employees recommendations

00:14:29 ◼   ► if their device is in an insecure state.

00:14:31 ◼   ► This can range from simple problems like, hey,

00:14:33 ◼   ► the screen lock is set wrong, to more nuanced and tricky things

00:14:37 ◼   ► like asking people to secure the two-factor backup codes that

00:14:39 ◼   ► are just sitting in their downloads folder.

00:14:41 ◼   ► And because it's talking directly to employees,

00:14:44 ◼   ► Collide is educating them about their company's policies

00:14:46 ◼   ► and how to best keep their devices secure

00:14:48 ◼   ► using real tangible examples, not theoretical scenarios.

00:14:52 ◼   ► So that's Collide, cross-platform endpoint management

00:14:56 ◼   ► for Linux, Mac, and Windows devices.

00:14:58 ◼   ► That puts end users first for teams that slack.

00:15:01 ◼   ► Visit collide.com/atp to learn more and activate a free 14-day

00:15:06 ◼   ► trial today.

00:15:07 ◼   ► Enter your email when prompted to receive your free Collide

00:15:09 ◼   ► gift bundle after trial activation with no credit card

00:15:12 ◼   ► required.

00:15:13 ◼   ► That's Collide, K-O-L-I-D-E.com.

00:15:16 ◼   ► collide.com/ATP.

00:15:19 ◼   ► Go there today.

00:15:20 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Collide for sponsoring our show.

00:15:23 ◼   ► - So popping up the stack several levels.

00:15:28 ◼   ► We also need to go back to our housekeeping

00:15:32 ◼   ► and congratulate John's son, Alex,

00:15:34 ◼   ► who is a high school graduate, which is very exciting.

00:15:36 ◼   ► - Hey!

00:15:37 ◼   ► - So how we feeling, dad?

00:15:39 ◼   ► - Good, I guess.

00:15:40 ◼   ► I mean, one thing I learned about his high school,

00:15:41 ◼   ► and I don't know if it's just his high school,

00:15:43 ◼   ► it seems like it'd be a trend.

00:15:45 ◼   ► When we were in high school, and maybe, I don't know,

00:15:48 ◼   ► I should say when I was in high school,

00:15:49 ◼   ► and maybe when you two were in high school as well,

00:15:51 ◼   ► the sort of tradition was that at graduation,

00:15:55 ◼   ► the school valedictorian would give a speech, right?

00:15:57 ◼   ► Is that a thing that you two experienced?

00:16:00 ◼   ► - I gave a speech at my high school graduation

00:16:01 ◼   ► 'cause I was president of the graduating class,

00:16:03 ◼   ► thank you very much, but yes, it was valedictorian,

00:16:06 ◼   ► I think the salutatorian gave a speech in me,

00:16:08 ◼   ► if memory serves. - Yeah, there you go.

00:16:09 ◼   ► All right, so they don't do that as much anymore, I think,

00:16:12 ◼   ► And my son's school also, as far as I'm aware,

00:16:17 ◼   ► doesn't even give like rankings, academic rankings.

00:16:21 ◼   ► - Oh, interesting.

00:16:22 ◼   ► - And so instead what they do is everyone in the school

00:16:25 ◼   ► votes or something like that to say who should speak.

00:16:28 ◼   ► So they had a bunch of student speakers

00:16:29 ◼   ► and people voted for them and they got up to go up there

00:16:33 ◼   ► and talk, right?

00:16:34 ◼   ► But it's not based on like academic rank

00:16:35 ◼   ► or class president or anything like that.

00:16:38 ◼   ► Although I think one of the people that spoke

00:16:39 ◼   ► was someone involved in student government.

00:16:41 ◼   ► But anyway, I'm not quite sure how it works.

00:16:42 ◼   ► But all this is to say is that,

00:16:45 ◼   ► say okay, well there's no,

00:16:46 ◼   ► 'cause I ask myself, what do you think your class rank was?

00:16:48 ◼   ► It's like, oh, they don't do that, dad.

00:16:50 ◼   ► You're so old.

00:16:50 ◼   ► And so I'm like, well, I can just say

00:16:55 ◼   ► that you are the number one in your class, right?

00:16:57 ◼   ► 'Cause who knows?

00:16:58 ◼   ► I mean, you might have been, so.

00:17:01 ◼   ► - My class rank was 90 out of 180.

00:17:04 ◼   ► - Nice, nice.

00:17:05 ◼   ► - I was exactly the most mediocre student in my class.

00:17:08 ◼   ► - And that's, so the number, yeah,

00:17:10 ◼   ► The number like that is like, well, you know, academically,

00:17:13 ◼   ► the numbers are what they are,

00:17:13 ◼   ► but the numbers are so weird now

00:17:15 ◼   ► 'cause they do waiting for like honors classes

00:17:17 ◼   ► and all sorts of weird stuff.

00:17:18 ◼   ► And some people do add a 5.0, some people do add a 4.0.

00:17:21 ◼   ► It's just so confusing.

00:17:22 ◼   ► So anyway, I'm just declaring my son

00:17:24 ◼   ► probably the valedictorian of his class.

00:17:26 ◼   ► Let's be honest.

00:17:27 ◼   ► (both laughing)

00:17:29 ◼   ► - Were his grades, all kidding aside,

00:17:30 ◼   ► were his grades that good?

00:17:31 ◼   ► - His grades were fantastic.

00:17:32 ◼   ► He did better in school than either of his parents.

00:17:35 ◼   ► - Oh, that's awesome.

00:17:36 ◼   ► - And I'm not asking you to upset the privacy clown

00:17:41 ◼   ► or whatever it is from Dubai Friday,

00:17:42 ◼   ► but he has a college plan or a post-graduate plan

00:17:46 ◼   ► or what have you.

00:17:47 ◼   ► - Yep, he's off to college.

00:17:48 ◼   ► You know, college admissions is rough

00:17:51 ◼   ► and college tuition is rough, but you know,

00:17:53 ◼   ► you can do what you can.

00:17:54 ◼   ► But he did a great in high school.

00:17:56 ◼   ► Very proud of him.

00:17:59 ◼   ► - Good. - Awesome.

00:17:59 ◼   ► - And then is he doing any sort of summer work

00:18:01 ◼   ► or anything like that or is he just chilling out?

00:18:03 ◼   ► - No.

00:18:04 ◼   ► I don't know what his,

00:18:05 ◼   ► I haven't been really--

00:18:06 ◼   ► I mean, this is the thing when you have a kid who's

00:18:08 ◼   ► like academically excellent.

00:18:10 ◼   ► You feel bad.

00:18:12 ◼   ► It's like my wife's inclination, especially

00:18:14 ◼   ► to get on his case about school work.

00:18:16 ◼   ► It's like, look, his grades are perfect.

00:18:19 ◼   ► Like, it's nothing--

00:18:21 ◼   ► and yeah, sometimes it does seem like he's slacking

00:18:23 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:18:24 ◼   ► But it's like, you can't argue with results, right?

00:18:27 ◼   ► There's no higher grade attainable.

00:18:30 ◼   ► There's no higher scores attainable.

00:18:32 ◼   ► And so anyway, so what is he doing for summer?

00:18:34 ◼   ► you should be pressuring him to do something or whatever."

00:18:36 ◼   ► It's like, "Nah."

00:18:38 ◼   ► I feel like if you do really awesome in high school

00:18:40 ◼   ► and your parents never have to bug you about it,

00:18:41 ◼   ► one of your rewards is you can probably do

00:18:43 ◼   ► whatever the hell you want between,

00:18:44 ◼   ► the summer between high school and college.

00:18:47 ◼   ► I don't know, I'm gonna encourage him

00:18:48 ◼   ► to do something or other, but who knows if he will.

00:18:50 ◼   ► And honestly, he's earned the ability

00:18:53 ◼   ► to just goof off all summer if he wants.

00:18:54 ◼   ► Hopefully he doesn't listen to this podcast,

00:18:56 ◼   ► but he doesn't, it's fine.

00:18:58 ◼   ► - You know, I hear, Jon, that success hides failure.

00:19:00 ◼   ► - No, success hides problems, come on.

00:19:02 ◼   ► - Oh, that's what it is, damn it.

00:19:03 ◼   ► - I was trying to be smart,

00:19:04 ◼   ► and clearly I'm not as smart as Al.

00:19:05 ◼   ► - There's more to life than academic success.

00:19:07 ◼   ► That is definitely true.

00:19:09 ◼   ► - Oh my God, there's so much more.

00:19:10 ◼   ► - That is very true.

00:19:11 ◼   ► - But academic success is nice too.

00:19:13 ◼   ► - Academic success matters a lot when you're in it

00:19:16 ◼   ► and right after you're in it.

00:19:18 ◼   ► And then it doesn't matter at all.

00:19:19 ◼   ► - That is also true.

00:19:20 ◼   ► - Matters a lot when you're trying

00:19:21 ◼   ► to get into college though, just FYI.

00:19:22 ◼   ► - Right, that qualifies as the right after you're in it.

00:19:25 ◼   ► As soon as you do the next thing after it,

00:19:28 ◼   ► it stops mattering at all.

00:19:29 ◼   ► - Well, if you wanna go to graduate school,

00:19:30 ◼   ► kinda helps if you do well as an undergraduate.

00:19:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, well then that's the next thing after it.

00:19:34 ◼   ► - All right, 'cause some people just--

00:19:35 ◼   ► - It's a recursive problem, John.

00:19:36 ◼   ► - Keep doing that forever.

00:19:37 ◼   ► They just never leave academia.

00:19:39 ◼   ► - Do you, to the extent you're willing to discuss

00:19:42 ◼   ► on this You're Not Feelings program,

00:19:44 ◼   ► do you have plans for him with regard to a computer

00:19:48 ◼   ► to go to college and/or automobile to go to college?

00:19:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm already excited

00:19:52 ◼   ► about those educational discounts.

00:19:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, baby.

00:19:54 ◼   ► - This Friday, I'm ordering him a new M2 MacBook Air.

00:19:59 ◼   ► He chose the boring color.

00:20:00 ◼   ► I tried to push the midnight.

00:20:02 ◼   ► he was just not having it, so he's picking Space Gray, whatever.

00:20:05 ◼   ► That's the worst.

00:20:07 ◼   ► I like it too.

00:20:08 ◼   ► It would be my site.

00:20:09 ◼   ► Anyway, that's what he picked.

00:20:10 ◼   ► It's his computer.

00:20:12 ◼   ► With his educational discount, love those savings.

00:20:15 ◼   ► But then I am going to take advantage of it.

00:20:18 ◼   ► You can go to the eDU store and check out to the point--

00:20:20 ◼   ► you can't actually order it, but you

00:20:21 ◼   ► can go through the whole config process and everything.

00:20:24 ◼   ► And when you scroll down, you configure your computer,

00:20:26 ◼   ► and it's like, what else do you want?

00:20:27 ◼   ► Do you want Final Cut Pro?

00:20:28 ◼   ► Do you want Logic?

00:20:29 ◼   ► You know when Apple does that on their sites?

00:20:31 ◼   ► Well, in the EDU store--

00:20:32 ◼   ► The optimistic upsells.

00:20:34 ◼   ► In the EDU store, they said, do you

00:20:36 ◼   ► want the student professional something something bundle?

00:20:39 ◼   ► I was like, huh, what's this?

00:20:40 ◼   ► For $199, you get Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, Motion,

00:20:46 ◼   ► and like two other things that I can't remember.

00:20:48 ◼   ► But just--

00:20:48 ◼   ► Whoa.

00:20:49 ◼   ► Like Final Cut Pro itself is like, what, $300, $200?

00:20:52 ◼   ► I think it's two or $300, yeah.

00:20:53 ◼   ► Logic is like $100.

00:20:54 ◼   ► Like, there's a lot of savings.

00:20:56 ◼   ► Yeah, I think it's about a 50% discount, I think.

00:20:58 ◼   ► I'm going to get that bundle.

00:20:59 ◼   ► Like, you can't beat those savings.

00:21:01 ◼   ► And maybe he'll use them, maybe he won't,

00:21:02 ◼   ► but I want, but see, I want those apps to be mine.

00:21:05 ◼   ► Like, I want the computer to be his,

00:21:07 ◼   ► but I want those apps to be mine.

00:21:09 ◼   ► And so I'm like, when I buy that,

00:21:10 ◼   ► are they gonna like give me a promo code

00:21:12 ◼   ► that I enter in the app store?

00:21:13 ◼   ► Does that mean I have to buy it on my Apple ID,

00:21:15 ◼   ► but then will I get the either you discount?

00:21:17 ◼   ► So I gotta figure that out, you know.

00:21:18 ◼   ► But anyway, Friday in the morning

00:21:20 ◼   ► is when the MacBook Air goes on sale

00:21:22 ◼   ► and I'm getting him that for school.

00:21:24 ◼   ► He already has, he already has one code,

00:21:26 ◼   ► an old M1 MacBook Air. - Wait, hold on.

00:21:27 ◼   ► I think only the 13-inch Pro goes on sale this Friday.

00:21:32 ◼   ► They haven't announced the on-sale date for the Air yet.

00:21:34 ◼   ► - But as soon as it goes on sale, I'm getting it.

00:21:37 ◼   ► And he just wants, you know, the M1 MacBook Air

00:21:39 ◼   ► is technically this family's,

00:21:41 ◼   ► and this will be actually his computer, so, yeah.

00:21:44 ◼   ► - That's fair.

00:21:44 ◼   ► Is he bringing a car to school or anything like that?

00:21:46 ◼   ► - No, there's no car for him to bring.

00:21:47 ◼   ► - Well, there could be.

00:21:49 ◼   ► - But there's not.

00:21:50 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:21:52 ◼   ► - This is why I asked the question.

00:21:53 ◼   ► - You get a renewed refurbished one on Amazon

00:21:55 ◼   ► for not that much money.

00:21:56 ◼   ► His tuition costs much more than any car I've ever purchased.

00:22:01 ◼   ► I will never forget my dad telling me, sitting me down before I went to Virginia Tech, and

00:22:05 ◼   ► tech was cheap, even out of state.

00:22:08 ◼   ► But he sat me down and he said, "I just want you to know," because he had just like a year

00:22:11 ◼   ► or two before bought himself his second Wrangler of the three that he's owned.

00:22:15 ◼   ► And he said, "I just want you to know, you going to school is like me driving the Jeep

00:22:20 ◼   ► off a cliff and then doing it again next year and doing it again next year."

00:22:25 ◼   ► - Thanks, Dad.

00:22:26 ◼   ► That makes me feel real great.

00:22:27 ◼   ► Thanks so much.

00:22:28 ◼   ► Oh, goodness.

00:22:29 ◼   ► All right, well, congratulations, Marco,

00:22:31 ◼   ► for surviving till 40 in what, two days?

00:22:33 ◼   ► And congratulations, Alex, for graduating high school.

00:22:37 ◼   ► All three of us are very proud of the two of you.

00:22:41 ◼   ► So very well done.

00:22:42 ◼   ► As per tradition, we need to do the follow-up episode,

00:22:45 ◼   ► since it was just a big Apple event,

00:22:47 ◼   ► and we need to do what will almost surely be an episode,

00:22:50 ◼   ► almost entirely a follow-up.

00:22:51 ◼   ► And let's start with iCloud Shared Photo Library,

00:22:55 ◼   ► which unfortunately, but understandably,

00:22:57 ◼   ► is not in any of the betas, but we have news about this.

00:22:59 ◼   ► - Understandably, I was disappointed not to find it there.

00:23:02 ◼   ► I was looking around, I'm like, "Where is this?

00:23:03 ◼   ► "How do you do it?" or whatever.

00:23:04 ◼   ► I had to ask, and they're like,

00:23:04 ◼   ► "Oh yeah, no, it's not in the betas."

00:23:06 ◼   ► They didn't say that on the thing.

00:23:08 ◼   ► They just did a whole presentation,

00:23:10 ◼   ► got me all excited about this new feature,

00:23:11 ◼   ► and they didn't say, "Oh, and by the way,

00:23:12 ◼   ► "this is totally not in the beta.

00:23:14 ◼   ► "It'll be in the beta eventually,

00:23:15 ◼   ► "but it's not in the current beta."

00:23:16 ◼   ► So I was disappointed by that.

00:23:17 ◼   ► - It's always shady when they do the like,

00:23:20 ◼   ► "Well, if you upgrade this device,

00:23:21 ◼   ► everything else is screwed, you know?

00:23:23 ◼   ► Which I understand why it's like that,

00:23:26 ◼   ► 'cause you're doing new things in iCloud

00:23:28 ◼   ► and that server side and blah, blah, blah,

00:23:29 ◼   ► but it gets a little squishy, so I can understand it.

00:23:31 ◼   ► - By the way, this feature is another reason

00:23:34 ◼   ► to have testing Apple IDs,

00:23:36 ◼   ► which Apple does not make easy to do

00:23:38 ◼   ► and has caused me problems in the past,

00:23:39 ◼   ► but I still have a couple of them rattling around,

00:23:41 ◼   ► and yeah, I'm not letting iCloud shared photo library

00:23:43 ◼   ► anywhere near my real Apple ID until it is out

00:23:46 ◼   ► and tested by somebody who's not me.

00:23:49 ◼   ► - In any case, somebody, I guess John

00:23:51 ◼   ► had noticed a tweet from Jason Snell with regard to,

00:23:54 ◼   ► excuse me, from Jason with regard to

00:23:57 ◼   ► what happens with the sharing allocations.

00:24:01 ◼   ► And so Jason wrote,

00:24:02 ◼   ► "If you're sharing with someone in the family,

00:24:04 ◼   ► "it just uses the shared family allotment once,

00:24:07 ◼   ► "not multiple times.

00:24:08 ◼   ► "If you share with someone not in a family plan with you,

00:24:11 ◼   ► "I believe the person sharing the images

00:24:13 ◼   ► "is the one who quote unquote pays for the storage."

00:24:16 ◼   ► And then Jason went on to say,

00:24:17 ◼   ► I think this is more of Jason, I didn't put this in.

00:24:19 ◼   ► - No, that's not me, this is me clarifying

00:24:21 ◼   ► because when I saw it, I'm like, wait a second,

00:24:22 ◼   ► you have to pay, like if I share a shared library with Casey,

00:24:26 ◼   ► I have to pay for that storage, so I got a clarification.

00:24:29 ◼   ► This is just me interpreting the clarification.

00:24:32 ◼   ► - Okay, and so apparently I'm reading for John now.

00:24:35 ◼   ► It doesn't subtract it, it's just using your storage.

00:24:39 ◼   ► So if you share with someone outside the family

00:24:40 ◼   ► and you contribute 200 gigabytes

00:24:42 ◼   ► and they contribute 200 gigabytes,

00:24:43 ◼   ► then you each pay for what you contribute,

00:24:45 ◼   ► but it's not double counted.

00:24:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is a worry a lot of people have

00:24:47 ◼   ► with any sharing thing, especially since I think Dropbox,

00:24:50 ◼   ► I don't know if they still do it this way,

00:24:51 ◼   ► but I think they originally did it the terrible way

00:24:52 ◼   ► where it's like, if you do a shared folder in Dropbox,

00:24:55 ◼   ► everybody has that storage counted

00:24:57 ◼   ► towards their total allotment, which is just terrible

00:25:00 ◼   ► because you know that they're not storing the data 17 times

00:25:02 ◼   ► or whatever.

00:25:03 ◼   ► But so it seems like the iCloud shared photo library

00:25:06 ◼   ► works the way you would want it to.

00:25:08 ◼   ► And that you don't double or triple or quadruple count.

00:25:11 ◼   ► The stuff is only stored once.

00:25:13 ◼   ► And if you have a shared photo library

00:25:15 ◼   ► where you contribute some photos and so does somebody else

00:25:17 ◼   ► and you do different family things,

00:25:18 ◼   ► you just each pay for whatever you've contributed.

00:25:21 ◼   ► It's as if it was in just your own regular library.

00:25:24 ◼   ► - Copy paste edits in photos.

00:25:27 ◼   ► According to the Iowa 16 preview on Apple's website,

00:25:30 ◼   ► you can copy the edits you've made to a photo

00:25:32 ◼   ► and then paste them onto another photo or a batch of photos.

00:25:35 ◼   ► I presume that you're very excited about this, Jon.

00:25:38 ◼   ► - This is actually a big deal.

00:25:39 ◼   ► This is something that Lightroom had forever ago,

00:25:41 ◼   ► and I remember that was one of the big

00:25:43 ◼   ► life-changing moments when I had a huge set of photos

00:25:47 ◼   ► that I just shot and maybe I wanted to adjust

00:25:49 ◼   ► the white balance on all of them at once

00:25:51 ◼   ► 'cause it was set a little bit wrong or something like that.

00:25:54 ◼   ► It's really nice to have this kind of feature.

00:25:55 ◼   ► Or you tweak your photos a certain way

00:25:58 ◼   ► and maybe you wanna apply them all to a big batch.

00:26:01 ◼   ► It's a really nice feature to have

00:26:02 ◼   ► and it's something that pro workflows expect

00:26:05 ◼   ► and have expected for quite some time.

00:26:07 ◼   ► So it's nice to see.

00:26:08 ◼   ► - I think Aperture might have had a similar feature

00:26:10 ◼   ► and one of the things I always remember

00:26:12 ◼   ► is from like OmniGraffle where you could copy subsets

00:26:15 ◼   ► styling and then paste that styling with a special tool onto other things.

00:26:19 ◼   ► And so yeah, this is definitely a useful feature, but, and I, well I don't know this for a fact,

00:26:24 ◼   ► but I just saw the URL that this page was on is like iOS 16 preview features, right?

00:26:29 ◼   ► I checked the Mac OS, you know, Ventura preview whatever thing and this wasn't listed there.

00:26:35 ◼   ► So it's cool that you can do this from the iOS and iPad OS photos application, but you

00:26:42 ◼   ► can't do it from the Mac one?

00:26:43 ◼   ► I don't know that to be true.

00:26:45 ◼   ► Again, the Mac Photos application doesn't even

00:26:47 ◼   ► have the shared thing in it yet,

00:26:48 ◼   ► so maybe it will be on the Mac too.

00:26:49 ◼   ► But I really hope, because I don't spend my time

00:26:52 ◼   ► doing photo edits on my phone or my iPad.

00:26:54 ◼   ► I do them on my Mac, so I hope this feature

00:26:56 ◼   ► comes there as well.

00:26:57 ◼   ► - Eric DeRider has some thoughts on Safety Check,

00:27:00 ◼   ► which are really, really useful.

00:27:02 ◼   ► Eric writes, "Safety Check looks like a great feature,

00:27:04 ◼   ► but in the meantime, and for those who can't

00:27:06 ◼   ► or won't update to iOS 16, Apple has a guide

00:27:08 ◼   ► to do some of these things manually,

00:27:10 ◼   ► and there is a personal safety user guide

00:27:12 ◼   ► that we will link to, which discusses

00:27:14 ◼   ► how to take care of yourself with regard

00:27:16 ◼   ► to personal safety and your devices, which is pretty cool.

00:27:18 ◼   ► Yeah, that's exactly why this feature needs to exist,

00:27:20 ◼   ► because you read that document, and your eyes start to glaze

00:27:22 ◼   ► over, and it's just so much work.

00:27:23 ◼   ► And expecting someone to do that at a very difficult time

00:27:26 ◼   ► of their life and a limited amount of time

00:27:28 ◼   ► and do it carefully and do it perfectly

00:27:29 ◼   ► is probably too much to ask.

00:27:30 ◼   ► But worst case scenario, you do have some recourse,

00:27:34 ◼   ► even if you don't have iOS 16.

00:27:36 ◼   ► Yep, which is excellent.

00:27:37 ◼   ► All right, tell me about pass keys, John.

00:27:39 ◼   ► This is a question a lot of people had.

00:27:41 ◼   ► There's a lot of misunderstanding about PassKeys,

00:27:43 ◼   ► but one of the questions is like,

00:27:44 ◼   ► how do I share this with somebody?

00:27:45 ◼   ► This came up in this program.

00:27:45 ◼   ► You're like, well, you know, technologically,

00:27:47 ◼   ► there's nothing stopping you from doing what you can do

00:27:49 ◼   ► with one password, which is like put it

00:27:50 ◼   ► into a shared family vault or whatever.

00:27:52 ◼   ► As far as I can tell, Apple does not have the concept

00:27:55 ◼   ► of a shared family iCloud keychain.

00:27:58 ◼   ► Now that we've got it for photos,

00:27:59 ◼   ► it makes me want it everywhere else.

00:28:00 ◼   ► I think on past shows, I said,

00:28:03 ◼   ► Apple should do it with contacts

00:28:04 ◼   ► 'cause it's like so much a small use case,

00:28:05 ◼   ► shared family contacts, library, whatever,

00:28:09 ◼   ► Shared Family iCloud Keychain.

00:28:11 ◼   ► All those things should happen, but they don't yet exist.

00:28:14 ◼   ► But Apple's solution to the idea of sharing a password

00:28:17 ◼   ► with somebody, like say you sign up for an account

00:28:19 ◼   ► with a passkey, and you just send the password

00:28:23 ◼   ► to someone in your family if they want to log into.

00:28:25 ◼   ► How do I do that with a passkey?

00:28:27 ◼   ► Well, in Apple's WWDC session about passkeys this year,

00:28:31 ◼   ► starting at around six minutes and 14 seconds,

00:28:33 ◼   ► you can see their answer.

00:28:34 ◼   ► And their answer is you AirDrop it to them.

00:28:35 ◼   ► So you can go into passwords on your phone,

00:28:38 ◼   ► and you just AirDrop it like you AirDrop anything else.

00:28:40 ◼   ► And why is it AirDrop and not like email or messages

00:28:44 ◼   ► or whatever, I assume they want you to be in proximity

00:28:46 ◼   ► so you kind of know who you're sending it to

00:28:48 ◼   ► because AirDrop doesn't work like, you know,

00:28:49 ◼   ► over hundreds of miles or whatever.

00:28:51 ◼   ► They don't really talk about that.

00:28:53 ◼   ► But anyway, that is the thing that works.

00:28:55 ◼   ► You can AirDrop a passkey to somebody.

00:28:57 ◼   ► And for people who don't,

00:28:59 ◼   ► who have some misunderstanding about this,

00:29:02 ◼   ► it's not like you have one passkey and that's it.

00:29:04 ◼   ► Every single account on every single service

00:29:07 ◼   ► has its own public private key pair, right?

00:29:10 ◼   ► So you can have 50 accounts on mycoolsite.com

00:29:13 ◼   ► and they all have separate pass keys

00:29:16 ◼   ► and they're all, you can pass them around.

00:29:17 ◼   ► It's just like a password, right?

00:29:18 ◼   ► It's instead of username and password,

00:29:20 ◼   ► it's username and pass key, right?

00:29:21 ◼   ► And all the stuff we talked about

00:29:23 ◼   ► of how they're unlocked or whatever is,

00:29:25 ◼   ► it's the pass key stuff.

00:29:26 ◼   ► But in the end, there is one of them

00:29:28 ◼   ► for every single account and there's no limitation

00:29:30 ◼   ► that you can, it's not like tied to your Apple ID

00:29:33 ◼   ► or tied to your phone and I can only have one account

00:29:35 ◼   ► on this service because it's tied to my phone,

00:29:38 ◼   ► you can have as many as you want,

00:29:39 ◼   ► and you can pass them around with AirDrop

00:29:41 ◼   ► just like any other data.

00:29:42 ◼   ► - And then, how do you recover pass keys

00:29:45 ◼   ► if you lose all your devices?

00:29:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, Apple has a document about this,

00:29:48 ◼   ► and it's an interesting question,

00:29:50 ◼   ► like say your house burns down, right?

00:29:51 ◼   ► And it had all your stuff in it,

00:29:53 ◼   ► it had all your backup codes,

00:29:54 ◼   ► it had all your iOS devices, right?

00:29:57 ◼   ► - We were sponsored this week by Backblaze.

00:29:58 ◼   ► - Yeah. - No, just kidding.

00:30:00 ◼   ► - Well, that's the question.

00:30:01 ◼   ► So if you have passwords, you could say,

00:30:03 ◼   ► well, I put a text document and I put it in Backblaze

00:30:06 ◼   ► or whatever, and so I'll just like,

00:30:07 ◼   ► if I can just restore from Backblaze

00:30:08 ◼   ► and I'll see what my password was

00:30:09 ◼   ► and I'll get back all my stuff.

00:30:10 ◼   ► But passkeys, the whole point of them is

00:30:12 ◼   ► they don't leave your device, right?

00:30:14 ◼   ► Other than apparently how they get airdropped,

00:30:16 ◼   ► and I'm not quite sure how they do that in a secure way,

00:30:17 ◼   ► but it's, you know, Apple end to end,

00:30:19 ◼   ► so they figure out some way to do it.

00:30:20 ◼   ► But anyway.

00:30:21 ◼   ► - Right, but like the private keys are not

00:30:22 ◼   ► just sitting in a file somewhere, right?

00:30:23 ◼   ► - They're in a secure enclave,

00:30:25 ◼   ► and they're in iCloud Keychain, which is end to end encrypted,

00:30:27 ◼   ► and if you like don't know your, you know,

00:30:31 ◼   ► Apple ID, password, like if you lose all the hardware devices

00:30:34 ◼   ► and you don't remember stuff, how do you get anything back?

00:30:37 ◼   ► And Apple actually has solutions to this.

00:30:39 ◼   ► One of them that's a big one and a fairly new one

00:30:41 ◼   ► that we talked about in past shows is

00:30:43 ◼   ► have a recovery contact where you can have another person

00:30:46 ◼   ► be sort of your backstop and say,

00:30:48 ◼   ► if all else fails and everything screws up,

00:30:50 ◼   ► this person who I better super duper trust

00:30:52 ◼   ► can help me get my stuff back.

00:30:54 ◼   ► And I actually set that up today.

00:30:55 ◼   ► Last time I tried to set it up,

00:30:56 ◼   ► it was complaining about like minimal S versions of devices.

00:30:59 ◼   ► You basically have to kick out any devices

00:31:01 ◼   ► that have really old OSs.

00:31:02 ◼   ► Like I had an iPod that was still listed

00:31:04 ◼   ► as belonging to my Apple ID and stuff,

00:31:06 ◼   ► or my iPhone 7 was still registered for Apple Pay.

00:31:09 ◼   ► You can go to appleid.apple.com

00:31:12 ◼   ► and just delete those devices,

00:31:14 ◼   ► 'cause they're all in the attic and erased now anyway,

00:31:16 ◼   ► so they don't have anything on them.

00:31:17 ◼   ► But once you do that, you can set up a recovery contact.

00:31:20 ◼   ► You could also have this sort of like

00:31:22 ◼   ► fallback recovery code thing that you can do

00:31:25 ◼   ► where you call Apple on the phone

00:31:26 ◼   ► and they have something in escrow for you

00:31:28 ◼   ► you prove who you are, read the document,

00:31:31 ◼   ► put it in the show notes, but the point is,

00:31:33 ◼   ► even if you lose everything, you can,

00:31:36 ◼   ► there are ways to recover some of your stuff.

00:31:39 ◼   ► Some of it might involve you putting a piece of paper

00:31:40 ◼   ► in a security deposit box somewhere,

00:31:42 ◼   ► or giving it to somebody that's your

00:31:43 ◼   ► if all else fails thing, but yeah.

00:31:47 ◼   ► And it's a pretty unlikely scenario that you would

00:31:50 ◼   ► not only lose every single hardware device you own

00:31:52 ◼   ► that is signed into your Apple ID,

00:31:53 ◼   ► but also not know any of your passwords.

00:31:56 ◼   ► I guess it's envisioning a world

00:31:57 ◼   ► where there are no more passwords,

00:31:58 ◼   ► but it's just pass keys and what if everything

00:31:59 ◼   ► that had that pass key in this key enclave is gone?

00:32:02 ◼   ► Apple has thought of that.

00:32:03 ◼   ► It is complicated but it is not entirely unsolvable.

00:32:06 ◼   ► So check out the links in the show notes

00:32:07 ◼   ► if you wanna see what Apple's thinking is

00:32:08 ◼   ► on how to deal with that.

00:32:10 ◼   ► - We are sponsored this week by Linode,

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00:34:09 ◼   ► - All right, tell me about the M2.

00:34:14 ◼   ► - So we're wondering what's the deal with the M2.

00:34:16 ◼   ► They told us the stats, oh, it's like X percent faster,

00:34:19 ◼   ► whatever, we didn't know anything more about it

00:34:21 ◼   ► on last week's show.

00:34:22 ◼   ► Well, now we do know more from this site Semi-analysis.

00:34:27 ◼   ► I read their big analysis of looking at the die shot

00:34:30 ◼   ► and what they say seems to hold some weight to me,

00:34:33 ◼   ► assuming these die shots are vaguely accurate.

00:34:36 ◼   ► It's A15 stuff in there, right?

00:34:37 ◼   ► So it's the A15 power cores

00:34:40 ◼   ► and the A15 efficiency cores, right?

00:34:43 ◼   ► So if you're wondering,

00:34:44 ◼   ► is it just an A14 with an extra GPU core

00:34:46 ◼   ► or an M1 with extra GPU core?

00:34:48 ◼   ► It's not.

00:34:48 ◼   ► It's A15 stuff inside there.

00:34:50 ◼   ► And the power core is actually bigger than it is.

00:34:55 ◼   ► Well, it's obviously bigger than it is in M1,

00:34:56 ◼   ► and it's also bigger than it is in the A15.

00:34:58 ◼   ► It's 21% bigger than in the M1

00:35:00 ◼   ► and 7% bigger than in the A15.

00:35:03 ◼   ► And a lot of that has to do with like the L2 cache

00:35:05 ◼   ► being bigger than it was in the A15,

00:35:06 ◼   ► but the core itself, computation-wise, is the A15.

00:35:10 ◼   ► The E-cores look about the same.

00:35:12 ◼   ► There is the faster LPDDR6400 memory controller,

00:35:16 ◼   ► which apparently costs more money,

00:35:18 ◼   ► but that's how you get the extra memory bandwidth.

00:35:20 ◼   ► So, you know, it is, like I said last week,

00:35:23 ◼   ► it is definitely a worthy successor to the M1.

00:35:26 ◼   ► The M1 had A14 stuff in it, the M2 has A15 stuff in it.

00:35:30 ◼   ► It's a slightly better five nanometer process,

00:35:33 ◼   ► which comes with it, you know, on its own.

00:35:36 ◼   ► Even if you just fab the M1 in the, you know,

00:35:39 ◼   ► the straight up M1 with this new process,

00:35:41 ◼   ► it would get a little bit of boost in power,

00:35:44 ◼   ► you know, power savings or, you know,

00:35:46 ◼   ► a computer per watt or whatever.

00:35:47 ◼   ► So, the M2 is looking pretty good.

00:35:50 ◼   ► Like it's not super duper fantastic,

00:35:52 ◼   ► but it is definitely a reasonable successor to the M1.

00:35:57 ◼   ► - One thing that I do have a little bit of reservation

00:36:00 ◼   ► about that I, you know, we'll have to just see the machines

00:36:03 ◼   ► and use them to really know, but we don't know yet,

00:36:06 ◼   ► you know, I kind of alluded to last week,

00:36:08 ◼   ► like with the new MacBook Air, again, it's fanless again,

00:36:11 ◼   ► and you know, presumably the same thing will apply

00:36:13 ◼   ► to all the M2-based iPads that are presumably

00:36:16 ◼   ► gonna come out soon, because I just bought an M1 one,

00:36:18 ◼   ► so the M2 ones must be coming out like tomorrow.

00:36:21 ◼   ► Actually, it'll come out, what's the return period,

00:36:23 ◼   ► 15 days, it'll come out 16 days from now.

00:36:26 ◼   ► But anyway, is that we don't really know yet,

00:36:29 ◼   ► like it does look like it might have a higher thermal load

00:36:34 ◼   ► when it's under full load,

00:36:36 ◼   ► because the die itself got significantly bigger,

00:36:40 ◼   ► and the performance cores got bigger,

00:36:43 ◼   ► and there was a leaked Geekbench result that came out today

00:36:46 ◼   ► that look like they clocked it up a little bit too.

00:36:48 ◼   ► And so it wouldn't surprise me if this might get throttled

00:36:53 ◼   ► more than the M1 did in fanless enclosures.

00:36:56 ◼   ► So again, we will have to see,

00:36:58 ◼   ► hopefully I'm wrong about that,

00:37:00 ◼   ► because that was one of the best things about the M1

00:37:02 ◼   ► is that it pretty much never throttled

00:37:03 ◼   ► unless you were really crushing both CPU and GPU.

00:37:07 ◼   ► So we'll see what happens with the M2,

00:37:08 ◼   ► but in case you were waffling over maybe getting an error

00:37:12 ◼   ► or the quote pro, which we'll get to,

00:37:15 ◼   ► But that decision, we don't really have all the information

00:37:19 ◼   ► yet until we learn what is the trade off

00:37:21 ◼   ► by making the M2 fanless?

00:37:23 ◼   ► Does it get a little bit hotter than the M1?

00:37:25 ◼   ► Does it have to throttle at some point

00:37:26 ◼   ► sooner that you might hit,

00:37:27 ◼   ► where you wouldn't have hit it on the M1?

00:37:29 ◼   ► And the answer is we just don't know yet.

00:37:31 ◼   ► - Well the thing with the,

00:37:32 ◼   ► I wish I had the number on this offhand,

00:37:33 ◼   ► but the new five nanometer process,

00:37:36 ◼   ► again comes with it some percentage

00:37:37 ◼   ► of better power efficiency.

00:37:40 ◼   ► If that percentage is around the same percentage

00:37:43 ◼   ► as the sort of area increase and the clocking increase.

00:37:47 ◼   ► If those two balance each other out,

00:37:49 ◼   ► it should be about the same as the M1, right?

00:37:51 ◼   ► 'Cause these numbers aren't big.

00:37:52 ◼   ► If you look at how much bigger it is than the M1,

00:37:54 ◼   ► it's like, I don't know, 10, 15% bigger.

00:37:57 ◼   ► But if you get 10, 15% more power savings

00:37:59 ◼   ► from the new process, it may just be a wash.

00:38:02 ◼   ► We'll find out for the testing.

00:38:03 ◼   ► Also, we don't even know what the cooling solution

00:38:06 ◼   ► looks like inside the fanless M2 MacBook Air.

00:38:09 ◼   ► You can solve a lot of problems with more heat pipes

00:38:12 ◼   ► and more surface area and more little fins and stuff.

00:38:13 ◼   ► So we'll see.

00:38:14 ◼   ► - The M2 MacBook Air comes with color matched

00:38:18 ◼   ► MagSafe cables, which makes me very jealous.

00:38:20 ◼   ► This is unlike my MacBook Pro,

00:38:22 ◼   ► which just used a, what is it, silver MagSafe connector.

00:38:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, no matter what color MacBook Pro you get,

00:38:28 ◼   ► you get the plain silver MagSafe connector,

00:38:31 ◼   ► but the color match cable--

00:38:32 ◼   ► - Which supports my assertion that the silver

00:38:34 ◼   ► is the best color of MacBook Pro.

00:38:36 ◼   ► - So the color match, I wish I had a picture of it here

00:38:39 ◼   ► in the notes, but I think they're like,

00:38:40 ◼   ► the cord is colored to match the MacBook Air or something.

00:38:43 ◼   ► - And the little metal end.

00:38:45 ◼   ► But no, you can actually, you can buy those separately

00:38:46 ◼   ► as of whenever these things launch.

00:38:49 ◼   ► There's a separate listing on Apple's website somewhere

00:38:50 ◼   ► where you can actually, so if you want,

00:38:52 ◼   ► even though Apple should have given you

00:38:53 ◼   ► the color-matched version to begin with

00:38:54 ◼   ► with your boring space gray laptop,

00:38:56 ◼   ► you can now go buy the boring space gray

00:38:58 ◼   ► MagSafe cable by itself.

00:39:00 ◼   ► - Well, good to know.

00:39:01 ◼   ► Also, the M2 MacBook Air has a 500-nit P3 screen.

00:39:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, last week, Marco mistakenly said

00:39:07 ◼   ► that it didn't have P3 and that the M2 MacBook Pro

00:39:10 ◼   ► also didn't have P3, they both have P3.

00:39:12 ◼   ► So they're 100 nits brighter,

00:39:13 ◼   ► well the MacBook Air is 100 nits brighter than it was

00:39:15 ◼   ► and they are both P3.

00:39:16 ◼   ► - Yep, my bad.

00:39:18 ◼   ► - Desk view, what is the situation with cameras in desk view?

00:39:22 ◼   ► - We were talking last week about how it's using

00:39:23 ◼   ► the wide angle camera to get a view of you

00:39:25 ◼   ► and a view of your desk surface, your physical desktop.

00:39:29 ◼   ► Well apparently if you are using it

00:39:32 ◼   ► and you use the regular camera to see your face,

00:39:35 ◼   ► It will then also simultaneously use the wide camera

00:39:38 ◼   ► to see your physical desktop.

00:39:40 ◼   ► So we'll use two cameras at once.

00:39:41 ◼   ► And one of them is just using just to look at your fingers

00:39:44 ◼   ► or whatever you have on your desk

00:39:45 ◼   ► and the other is looking at your face.

00:39:46 ◼   ► So it's nice that you're not limited to using the

00:39:48 ◼   ► probably pretty bad, potentially center stage powered

00:39:51 ◼   ► super ultra wide camera for your face.

00:39:53 ◼   ► You can use the regular camera for that

00:39:54 ◼   ► and just use the super ultra wide one

00:39:57 ◼   ► to be able to see your desktop.

00:40:00 ◼   ► - And then with regard to messages, according to Tobias,

00:40:03 ◼   ► you can finally scroll through long messages

00:40:05 ◼   ► from the normal UI, no more long press, et cetera.

00:40:08 ◼   ► And also audio recording has been moved

00:40:10 ◼   ► to the iMessage app area, woo!

00:40:11 ◼   ► That's exciting.

00:40:12 ◼   ► - I didn't confirm any of this, but I assume,

00:40:14 ◼   ► 'cause I don't have, do either one of you have the beta

00:40:16 ◼   ► on anything where you can look at this and say,

00:40:18 ◼   ► I'm assuming what this means is no more accidentally hitting

00:40:20 ◼   ► that little thing that lets you record an audio message

00:40:22 ◼   ► 'cause it's not in the message field anymore?

00:40:23 ◼   ► - I did have the beta before I gave away my 12 mini.

00:40:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:40:28 ◼   ► - Whoops, the depth's these.

00:40:30 ◼   ► How was that, by the way, running it on your carry phone?

00:40:32 ◼   ► - No, that's the thing, it wasn't on my carry phone.

00:40:34 ◼   ► - Oh, it was on, right, right, you said the 12 mini.

00:40:35 ◼   ► I'm sorry, yes, it's just us.

00:40:36 ◼   ► - So I actually asked on Twitter yesterday,

00:40:38 ◼   ► hey, how's the beta one on your carrier phones?

00:40:41 ◼   ► And it sounds like it's a moderately rough beta one

00:40:44 ◼   ► from what people are saying.

00:40:45 ◼   ► And people, it's funny, people frame this differently.

00:40:47 ◼   ► Some people say, it's pretty rough,

00:40:50 ◼   ► I only get half the battery life.

00:40:51 ◼   ► Other people say, it's not that bad,

00:40:53 ◼   ► I'm only getting half the battery life.

00:40:55 ◼   ► It depends on your perspective

00:40:56 ◼   ► on what you're willing to give up,

00:40:58 ◼   ► but it seems like there's a number of problems.

00:41:01 ◼   ► Things like, people say Apple Pay didn't work,

00:41:04 ◼   ► and half the battery life,

00:41:06 ◼   ► and apparently Microsoft Teams, the app doesn't work,

00:41:08 ◼   ► which I don't use, but it's good to know.

00:41:10 ◼   ► So it seems like, yeah, it's beta one.

00:41:13 ◼   ► And so you're probably better off still not putting it

00:41:16 ◼   ► on your carry phones, but to be honest,

00:41:18 ◼   ► I'm probably gonna jump in on beta two.

00:41:20 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

00:41:21 ◼   ► But yeah, and the other thing is,

00:41:22 ◼   ► I didn't have this happen often,

00:41:24 ◼   ► but it was absolutely infuriating

00:41:26 ◼   ► when you got a very long message in Messages,

00:41:29 ◼   ► and you had long press, or whatever the case may be,

00:41:32 ◼   ► in order to read it,

00:41:33 ◼   ► And so apparently that's not a problem anymore,

00:41:35 ◼   ► which is exciting.

00:41:36 ◼   ► - You know what we need?

00:41:37 ◼   ► We need desktop class iPhone apps.

00:41:39 ◼   ► And you know why?

00:41:40 ◼   ► So we can get the stupid attach a photo back

00:41:42 ◼   ► to not be buried under the message area thing, right?

00:41:44 ◼   ► So we got rid of the audio thing in the text field.

00:41:47 ◼   ► Now there's room for another icon there.

00:41:48 ◼   ► Wouldn't it be great if you could pick which icon

00:41:50 ◼   ► is the one that's not buried in the application thing?

00:41:53 ◼   ► And the one I would pick is attach picture

00:41:54 ◼   ► from your photo library, 'cause I do that all the time.

00:41:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's the one that I think people do the most,

00:41:58 ◼   ► right? - Right.

00:42:00 ◼   ► And I guess people just leave that little

00:42:02 ◼   ► app bar visible for people to know you can you can hold down on whatever button

00:42:05 ◼   ► you press and it will hide and show that app bar. I don't leave it visible because I

00:42:08 ◼   ► don't need to see it there all the time. I just want one thing to be accessible

00:42:11 ◼   ► and I don't want that one thing not to be record audio message. So I really wish

00:42:14 ◼   ► they would add a a one-slot customizable toolbar to the iPhone messages app.

00:42:20 ◼   ► Think about it Apple. You're just the idea guy. All right tell me about Stage

00:42:26 ◼   ► Manager please. One quick tip for this for people who don't know and don't like

00:42:29 ◼   ► the little side thing that shows all the little window groups on an angle in Stage Manager.

00:42:37 ◼   ► In iPadOS, apparently, James Thompson says you can turn off that sidebar if you long

00:42:41 ◼   ► press on the Stage Manager mode thing in Control Center.

00:42:45 ◼   ► So you don't have to see that all the time.

00:42:48 ◼   ► I think you can also hide it on the Mac too.

00:42:49 ◼   ► I'm not entirely sure.

00:42:50 ◼   ► I haven't spent a lot of time in venture, though I did install it.

00:42:53 ◼   ► So I just wanted to give that quick hint for people to think, "Oh, I'm not going to run

00:42:55 ◼   ► Stage Manager.

00:42:56 ◼   ► I don't want those icons clogging things up."

00:42:58 ◼   ► Also, I think on the iPad, if you make the app or one

00:43:02 ◼   ► of the app windows wide enough, I

00:43:03 ◼   ► think that it will also hide that thing.

00:43:05 ◼   ► I have not installed iPad OS 16 on any devices,

00:43:09 ◼   ► so I don't know for sure.

00:43:10 ◼   ► Have either one of you done that?

00:43:12 ◼   ► No, I did.

00:43:14 ◼   ► Had to restore that one too.

00:43:17 ◼   ► Some more experimentation there.

00:43:19 ◼   ► We'll talk more about Stage Manager as one or both of us

00:43:23 ◼   ► or all three of us get brave enough to put it on our iPad.

00:43:25 ◼   ► I'll probably put it on mine, because I do have an M1 iPad.

00:43:27 ◼   ► I'll put it on mine eventually, just maybe not beta one.

00:43:29 ◼   ► But before we dive too much more into that, in future weeks,

00:43:32 ◼   ► it's time to talk about the controversies surrounding

00:43:36 ◼   ► stage manager.

00:43:38 ◼   ► So let's start with the talk show live,

00:43:40 ◼   ► which they did in the Apple Developer Center thing,

00:43:44 ◼   ► John Gruber's live talk show, that had Craig Federighi

00:43:47 ◼   ► and Greg Joswiak as guests.

00:43:50 ◼   ► And here are just a couple of short quotes

00:43:53 ◼   ► about what Federighi said about stage manager,

00:43:56 ◼   ► to think about it.

00:43:58 ◼   ► And this is mostly in the context of the Mac, right?

00:44:00 ◼   ► It was on the last show I talked about how on the Mac

00:44:01 ◼   ► there's tons of different ways to manage Windows.

00:44:04 ◼   ► Apple has done lots of different things over the years,

00:44:06 ◼   ► and pretty much all of them are still there, right?

00:44:09 ◼   ► You've got Exposé, you've got the dock,

00:44:11 ◼   ► you've got minimization, you've got tiling windows,

00:44:14 ◼   ► you've got zooming, you've got plain old resizing,

00:44:16 ◼   ► you've got spaces, and now also you have stage manager.

00:44:20 ◼   ► And I probably forgot something in there.

00:44:21 ◼   ► All those things are all in there at the same time.

00:44:24 ◼   ► So Craig Federighi said, we're not telling you

00:44:27 ◼   ► that you're doing it wrong, implying

00:44:28 ◼   ► like if you use one of those features,

00:44:30 ◼   ► we're not saying, hey, you shouldn't

00:44:31 ◼   ► use minimizing to the dock.

00:44:32 ◼   ► You shouldn't use tiling.

00:44:34 ◼   ► You know, all that is fine.

00:44:35 ◼   ► We're not telling you whatever it

00:44:37 ◼   ► is that you're doing is wrong.

00:44:38 ◼   ► And then regarding why stage manager is a useful thing

00:44:42 ◼   ► to have on the Mac is another quote from Federighi.

00:44:44 ◼   ► There's a sense that the Mac experience is messy by default.

00:44:48 ◼   ► That gets into the janitor quote from Steve Jobs, right?

00:44:50 ◼   ► That if you don't do anything, like the default experience

00:44:53 ◼   ► on the Mac is eventually just windows appear everywhere and that feels messy to people.

00:44:58 ◼   ► He continues, "You're constantly either living in the mess or you're cleaning up after yourself

00:45:02 ◼   ► constantly as you go."

00:45:03 ◼   ► So that's like the impression that some people have about using the Mac, especially if you

00:45:07 ◼   ► used to a phone or an iPad where, you know, especially in the past, your options were

00:45:11 ◼   ► much more limited and you didn't have to deal with that visual clutter, right?

00:45:15 ◼   ► So that's why center stage, center stage, God, everyone's doing it.

00:45:20 ◼   ► That's why stage manager makes sense on the Mac.

00:45:24 ◼   ► I think we talked about it the last week,

00:45:25 ◼   ► but we'll put a link in the show notes

00:45:26 ◼   ► to the Purple Window widget from Mac OS X Developer Preview 3

00:45:31 ◼   ► in the year 2000.

00:45:34 ◼   ► The idea behind that was similar.

00:45:36 ◼   ► Yeah, the idea behind that was similar

00:45:39 ◼   ► is it was Steve Jobs, I should have put the link,

00:45:40 ◼   ► someone had a tweet where they clipped out the little thing

00:45:42 ◼   ► from the Steve Jobs segment.

00:45:43 ◼   ► We're like, Steve Jobs seemed to feel the same way,

00:45:46 ◼   ► that if you're using a Mac, sometimes you feel like a janitor

00:45:50 ◼   ► cleaning up all these windows.

00:45:51 ◼   ► Wouldn't it be nice if you could concentrate on one thing at a time?

00:45:53 ◼   ► The iPad was truly Steve Jobs' dream computer because it just did everything that he wanted

00:45:58 ◼   ► the Mac to do but it never quite could, right?

00:46:01 ◼   ► In terms of simplicity and elegance or whatever.

00:46:03 ◼   ► Anyway, in Mac OS X Developer Preview 3 there was another window widget that was purple.

00:46:09 ◼   ► You had the stop lights, you know, red, yellow, and green.

00:46:12 ◼   ► And then you had a purple widget.

00:46:13 ◼   ► They were colon candy colored at that point.

00:46:16 ◼   ► And if you hit the purple one, it went into what they called single window mode, where

00:46:19 ◼   ► all the other windows except for the one you were looking at would hide themselves, and

00:46:24 ◼   ► you'd just see that one window.

00:46:25 ◼   ► And if you switched to another one, the window you were working on would disappear and the

00:46:28 ◼   ► other window would come in.

00:46:30 ◼   ► You can see how that would be limiting, and you can see why maybe that didn't make it

00:46:32 ◼   ► to release, because that's so limiting.

00:46:35 ◼   ► One window at a time, and any time I switched to anything else, the window I was working

00:46:39 ◼   ► on, the whole point of having a big screen on a Mac is so you can do two things at once

00:46:42 ◼   ► and maybe drag things between windows and see them both at the same time.

00:46:45 ◼   ► So single window mode didn't quite make it.

00:46:47 ◼   ► But that idea of like, I wish the computer would just--

00:46:51 ◼   ► I wish the Mac would just show me what I'm working on now

00:46:53 ◼   ► and hide everything else, that is sort of-- you

00:46:56 ◼   ► can see that underlying stage manager.

00:46:59 ◼   ► And I think a lot of people talked about it.

00:47:02 ◼   ► I listened to all the podcasts talking about W3C,

00:47:03 ◼   ► including us, like how stage manager-- and we saw that,

00:47:06 ◼   ► like that looks like a feature that would be appropriate

00:47:08 ◼   ► for an iPad.

00:47:08 ◼   ► Because the iPad already does kind of do one thing at once

00:47:10 ◼   ► with limited amounts of multitasking.

00:47:12 ◼   ► And stage manager is a slightly fancier, slightly more

00:47:14 ◼   ► flexible way to do that.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Still trying to say you're concentrating on

00:47:19 ◼   ► one small set of things at once,

00:47:20 ◼   ► and then you switch to a different small set of things.

00:47:23 ◼   ► Right?

00:47:24 ◼   ► And the others, you know, you've got the stage manager thing

00:47:26 ◼   ► where they're along the side or whatever,

00:47:28 ◼   ► but the stuff you're working on goes off into its little home

00:47:31 ◼   ► and a new set of stuff comes out.

00:47:32 ◼   ► So it's like the purple window widget.

00:47:34 ◼   ► It's like single window mode from 2000,

00:47:36 ◼   ► but handful of window mode.

00:47:39 ◼   ► And it's different sets of handful of windows, right?

00:47:41 ◼   ► And so when a lot of people saw stage manager,

00:47:44 ◼   ► They thought, that looks like an iPad feature,

00:47:46 ◼   ► and they just happened to bring it to the Mac,

00:47:47 ◼   ► 'cause they're trying to bring everything

00:47:48 ◼   ► to all their platforms at once.

00:47:50 ◼   ► Well, it turns out, some people in the know,

00:47:53 ◼   ► some people who worked on this back in, what, 2006-ish

00:47:56 ◼   ► or whatever, said that Stage Manager is actually

00:48:00 ◼   ► an incarnation of an idea called Shrinky Dink

00:48:03 ◼   ► from way back in the day.

00:48:05 ◼   ► This is, we'll put a link in the show notes

00:48:07 ◼   ► to something written by someone who's known as Cricket.

00:48:11 ◼   ► and they were working on the Shrinkydink feature

00:48:14 ◼   ► when Apple was transitioning to Intel back in 2006

00:48:17 ◼   ► and included a screenshot.

00:48:19 ◼   ► It looks a lot like Stage Manager,

00:48:21 ◼   ► right down to the little angled groups of windows

00:48:24 ◼   ► on the side, and it never quite shipped

00:48:26 ◼   ► 'cause they didn't quite get it to the point

00:48:27 ◼   ► where they wanted to have it,

00:48:28 ◼   ► but it shows that good ideas don't necessarily die,

00:48:31 ◼   ► that even if they don't ship, maybe wait 10, 15 more years

00:48:35 ◼   ► and they might see the light of day.

00:48:36 ◼   ► So I highly recommend everyone reading that.

00:48:38 ◼   ► So basically what that shows is this is not a feature

00:48:40 ◼   ► that was made for the iPad and eventually brought to the Mac.

00:48:43 ◼   ► It was a feature that was made for the Mac,

00:48:44 ◼   ► didn't make it to the Mac, and got resurrected probably

00:48:47 ◼   ► because of its applicability to the iPad

00:48:49 ◼   ► and then also appeared on the Mac.

00:48:51 ◼   ► -I should note that this site or this blog post

00:48:55 ◼   ► seems to have been taken down,

00:48:56 ◼   ► but we will put a link in the show notes just in case.

00:48:58 ◼   ► -Let's see. -Yep.

00:48:59 ◼   ► -Oh, that's sad.

00:49:00 ◼   ► -Global security must have gotten to them.

00:49:02 ◼   ► -Right?

00:49:03 ◼   ► But one way or another, the screenshot that was there,

00:49:07 ◼   ► that Jon was nice enough to put in the show notes,

00:49:09 ◼   ► It looks really similar.

00:49:11 ◼   ► It looks really, really similar.

00:49:13 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm assuming that got taken down

00:49:15 ◼   ► because this screenshot must have been an internal

00:49:17 ◼   ► Apple-only build that never saw the light of day.

00:49:19 ◼   ► Yeah. - I guess.

00:49:21 ◼   ► All right, so what's the controversy here?

00:49:22 ◼   ► - So the controversy is why is, I gotta scroll up,

00:49:26 ◼   ► why is Stage Manager, I almost said center stage,

00:49:28 ◼   ► why is Stage Manager only available on M1 iPads?

00:49:31 ◼   ► Last week we talked about it right after the keynote.

00:49:33 ◼   ► We're like, well, you know,

00:49:35 ◼   ► they did add a virtual memory swap support

00:49:39 ◼   ► and that might be required to have all these applications

00:49:41 ◼   ► in memory at the same time,

00:49:42 ◼   ► because if you're gonna be showing

00:49:44 ◼   ► four different applications on two different screens,

00:49:48 ◼   ► the iPads don't come with a lot of RAM,

00:49:51 ◼   ► and if you don't have enough RAM

00:49:53 ◼   ► to hold that amount of applications, what can you do?

00:49:55 ◼   ► It's not like you can just sort of put a checkerboard pattern

00:49:56 ◼   ► over some of the applications and say,

00:49:57 ◼   ► "Sorry, this application's not in memory

00:49:59 ◼   ► "and we don't have swaps, so if you tap on it,

00:50:03 ◼   ► "basically wait for it to relaunch

00:50:04 ◼   ► "and then we'll rip one of your other apps out of memory."

00:50:07 ◼   ► So we're like, well, maybe it's M1 only because M1,

00:50:11 ◼   ► you know, the M1 iPads have more RAM.

00:50:13 ◼   ► Lots of people seem to be angry that Stage Manager is M1 only

00:50:16 ◼   ► because like you two were just talking about,

00:50:18 ◼   ► what if I have like a, what I think is a fairly recent iPad

00:50:21 ◼   ► that I think is perfectly fine,

00:50:22 ◼   ► the performance of it's great,

00:50:23 ◼   ► like it's an iPad Pro maybe even,

00:50:25 ◼   ► and you're telling me I can't do Stage Manager?

00:50:28 ◼   ► - Well, but just for the record, just for the record,

00:50:31 ◼   ► I am not upset that my four-year-old iPad

00:50:33 ◼   ► cannot do Stage Manager.

00:50:34 ◼   ► - Yeah. - I'm only upset

00:50:35 ◼   ► because I'm cheap, not because I think it should.

00:50:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, the only reason I was, look,

00:50:38 ◼   ► you know I will jump at any chance to upgrade my hardware.

00:50:42 ◼   ► Any excuse, oh, I can't run, you know,

00:50:45 ◼   ► I can only run four windows instead of five.

00:50:47 ◼   ► Like, I have to upgrade my hardware.

00:50:48 ◼   ► The only reason I felt bad about doing

00:50:51 ◼   ► this particular upgrade is that I don't really end up

00:50:53 ◼   ► using my iPad very much outside of testing situations.

00:50:56 ◼   ► And that's, so it was frustrating.

00:50:58 ◼   ► Like, my kid and my wife both have M1 iPads.

00:51:02 ◼   ► Like, they, 'cause they both use their iPads

00:51:05 ◼   ► very heavily all the time.

00:51:07 ◼   ► So it made sense for them to upgrade when they were ready.

00:51:09 ◼   ► For me, it didn't make a lot of sense,

00:51:11 ◼   ► and I'm not excited about the upgrade.

00:51:13 ◼   ► So that's the only reason I even resisted this a little bit.

00:51:15 ◼   ► But to also be clear, I think it's totally reasonable

00:51:19 ◼   ► that my four-year-old iPad Pro

00:51:22 ◼   ► does not run this cutting-edge feature.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Because, and I think the reasons they give are valid,

00:51:27 ◼   ► because when you look at what Stage Manager has to do,

00:51:32 ◼   ► it clearly requires a huge jump in RAM

00:51:36 ◼   ► to keep way more apps running invisible

00:51:38 ◼   ► than were ever running invisible before.

00:51:40 ◼   ► That's why they had to add virtual memory swap,

00:51:42 ◼   ► that's why this is such a big deal.

00:51:43 ◼   ► And when you think about swapping,

00:51:45 ◼   ► like the old hardware, when they were designing the,

00:51:49 ◼   ► I believe I'm running an A12Z or X,

00:51:52 ◼   ► one of those, I think X, I don't know.

00:51:55 ◼   ► Anyway, running-- - That just sounded like me

00:51:56 ◼   ► at an eye appointment.

00:51:57 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:51:58 ◼   ► R-S-T-L-N-Y, maybe?

00:52:01 ◼   ► - You're on Wheel of Fortune.

00:52:02 ◼   ► - Yeah. - You're right, you're right.

00:52:04 ◼   ► - Yeah, but anyway, when they were designing my iPad

00:52:07 ◼   ► four years ago, this feature of having swap

00:52:12 ◼   ► probably was either not on their radar yet

00:52:14 ◼   ► or only in very early consideration.

00:52:16 ◼   ► And so to add something that dramatically changes

00:52:21 ◼   ► how the memory needs are,

00:52:24 ◼   ► how the storage infrastructure is accessed,

00:52:26 ◼   ► what kind of flash, what rating of storage controller

00:52:29 ◼   ► you can put in there, how much wear and tear

00:52:31 ◼   ► the flash is designed to take,

00:52:32 ◼   ► those are all significant hardware constraints

00:52:35 ◼   ► that the older hardware has.

00:52:36 ◼   ► And so it makes total sense that only hardware

00:52:39 ◼   ► that was designed to be a laptop, as in the M1,

00:52:43 ◼   ► that is equipped to do this,

00:52:45 ◼   ► because laptops always have swap.

00:52:47 ◼   ► So it made sense like that hardware was made to have swap,

00:52:49 ◼   ► it was designed to have that kind of bandwidth

00:52:52 ◼   ► and SSDs and everything like that,

00:52:53 ◼   ► and memory in the first place to avoid needing

00:52:56 ◼   ► a swap earlier.

00:52:57 ◼   ► Whereas the four-year-old hardware wasn't,

00:52:59 ◼   ► it's simple as that.

00:53:00 ◼   ► We'll see. We'll see if that's simple.

00:53:01 ◼   ► Let's go through the complaints.

00:53:03 ◼   ► So what I was getting at with Casey saying

00:53:04 ◼   ► was like the people's impression is that their computers,

00:53:08 ◼   ► their iPads don't feel slow, right?

00:53:10 ◼   ► So it's hard for them to understand

00:53:12 ◼   ► why they can't support this feature

00:53:13 ◼   ► 'cause as old as it may be, it doesn't feel slow, right?

00:53:16 ◼   ► So this thing started,

00:53:18 ◼   ► people were complaining the internet early on.

00:53:20 ◼   ► Apple gave a statement to Renee Ritchie that said,

00:53:22 ◼   ► quoting from a portion of it,

00:53:24 ◼   ► delivering this experience, meaning center, stage manager.

00:53:28 ◼   ► - Stage manager, hi.

00:53:30 ◼   ► Delivering this experience with the immediacy users expect from iPads touch for us experience requires large internal memory incredibly fast storage and flexible external

00:53:37 ◼   ► Display, I'll all of which are delivered by I pass with M1 chips, okay

00:53:41 ◼   ► Later Federighi did an interview with TechCrunch

00:53:44 ◼   ► We said building the M1 was critical as well from the start the iPad is always maintained extremely high standard for responsiveness and interactivity

00:53:50 ◼   ► That directness of interaction and that every app can respond to every touch and insane

00:53:54 ◼   ► Instantaneously as if you were touching the real thing underneath the screen

00:53:58 ◼   ► And I think it's hard sometimes for people to appreciate the technical constraints involved

00:54:01 ◼   ► in achieving that.

00:54:02 ◼   ► This gets to what I was saying before of like, if you don't have anywhere for that, you know,

00:54:07 ◼   ► anywhere else to put that memory, and there's not enough memory to have all those apps in

00:54:10 ◼   ► memory at the same time, how is it going to be responding instantly to your touch if you

00:54:13 ◼   ► basically need to be relaunching the app behind the scenes, right?

00:54:16 ◼   ► That's why people think, oh, a swap is necessary, right?

00:54:18 ◼   ► So Federico continues, as you add multiple apps into play and large amounts of screen

00:54:21 ◼   ► real estate, you have to make sure that any of those apps can respond instantly to your

00:54:26 ◼   ► touch in a way that you don't have to have the expectation with a desktop app.

00:54:29 ◼   ► I would argue you should have the same expectation with a desktop app as well.

00:54:34 ◼   ► Indirect manipulation gives you some slack there so it's a different set of constraints.

00:54:37 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm not sure it's that different.

00:54:41 ◼   ► And then Stephen Hackett who was commenting on this post says, "Federie also mentions

00:54:44 ◼   ► that older iPads don't have the horsepower to push external displays in the way Apple

00:54:48 ◼   ► wants."

00:54:49 ◼   ► Right?

00:54:50 ◼   ► So that's Apple's side of the story.

00:54:52 ◼   ► Needs to be responsive, takes lots of RAM, external displays or whatever.

00:54:54 ◼   ► So here's the pushback from that community.

00:54:56 ◼   ► So first, people were pushing back against the M1

00:54:59 ◼   ► requirement, saying, well, look, the Apple Silicon DTK

00:55:03 ◼   ► was a Mac Mini with an A12Z in it.

00:55:05 ◼   ► And an A12Z is not an M1.

00:55:07 ◼   ► And the A12Z ran Mac OS, which can have more than four

00:55:10 ◼   ► windows on the screen.

00:55:11 ◼   ► I'm not sure if you're aware.

00:55:12 ◼   ► And I put more than four windows on the screen of the DTK,

00:55:16 ◼   ► and it was fine.

00:55:17 ◼   ► So it doesn't require an M1, it seems like.

00:55:20 ◼   ► But the DTK had 16 gigs of RAM.

00:55:24 ◼   ► And that's-- so it wasn't an A12Z with 4 gigs of RAM.

00:55:27 ◼   ► It had 16 gigs of RAM.

00:55:28 ◼   ► I don't actually know if the DDK ran swap,

00:55:30 ◼   ► and obviously I don't have mine anymore to check.

00:55:32 ◼   ► But so there's that consideration, right?

00:55:34 ◼   ► And then from-- this bit is from Apple's iPad OS 16 preview

00:55:40 ◼   ► page.

00:55:41 ◼   ► It talks about virtual memory swap.

00:55:42 ◼   ► And it says, iPad storage can be used

00:55:44 ◼   ► to expand the available memory for all apps

00:55:46 ◼   ► to deliver up to 16 gigabytes of memory

00:55:48 ◼   ► for the most demanding apps.

00:55:49 ◼   ► And then it has a little footnote, footnote number 19.

00:55:52 ◼   ► And if you scroll down the page and see

00:55:54 ◼   ► what is footnote number 19, it says,

00:55:56 ◼   ► regarding virtual memory swap,

00:55:58 ◼   ► that it is available on iPad Air fifth generation

00:56:01 ◼   ► with a minimum of 256 gigabytes storage.

00:56:04 ◼   ► And then it lists a bunch of other iPads it works on.

00:56:06 ◼   ► So the iPad Air fifth generation

00:56:09 ◼   ► also comes in a 64 gig storage model.

00:56:12 ◼   ► And they're saying, if you get an iPad Air fifth generation--

00:56:15 ◼   ► - Wait, this is the current model?

00:56:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, with 64 gigs of storage, it won't use swap.

00:56:20 ◼   ► Presumably because it doesn't wanna hog any more

00:56:23 ◼   ► of the storage space with swap,

00:56:24 ◼   ► 'cause swap files can get big, right?

00:56:26 ◼   ► But the iPad Air fifth generation runs Stage Manager.

00:56:31 ◼   ► - And it has an M1, yeah.

00:56:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, as Steve Stratton Smith said,

00:56:34 ◼   ► Stage Manager works on the iPad Air at all storage sizes,

00:56:38 ◼   ► but swap only works on 256 gig things.

00:56:40 ◼   ► So obviously swap is not,

00:56:42 ◼   ► according to Apple's own specifications,

00:56:44 ◼   ► swap is not technically required for a Stage Manager,

00:56:47 ◼   ► 'cause the iPad Air can apparently run it without swap.

00:56:50 ◼   ► So that's a little bit confusing.

00:56:51 ◼   ► Then you look, okay, but what about the iPad Air?

00:56:53 ◼   ► So it's got an M1, right?

00:56:55 ◼   ► It's also got eight gigs of RAM,

00:56:56 ◼   ► so maybe that's what it is.

00:56:57 ◼   ► Maybe, okay, well, even without swap,

00:57:00 ◼   ► if you have eight gigs of RAM,

00:57:01 ◼   ► they feel like Sage Manager will be able to fit in there.

00:57:04 ◼   ► But the iPad Pro 3rd Gen that I think Casey has

00:57:08 ◼   ► also has eight gigs of RAM,

00:57:09 ◼   ► and in fact, they made a 16 gig RAM version of that,

00:57:11 ◼   ► but that one can't run center stage.

00:57:14 ◼   ► So if it's not swap--

00:57:16 ◼   ► - It's a stage manager, you just did it again.

00:57:19 ◼   ► - Okay, it's impossible.

00:57:20 ◼   ► It's absolutely impossible. - It's impossible.

00:57:20 ◼   ► - It can't be done.

00:57:21 ◼   ► It can't be done.

00:57:22 ◼   ► Rename your features, Apple.

00:57:24 ◼   ► - We'll just call it Shrinky Dink.

00:57:25 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:57:26 ◼   ► - Well, but hold on though, but my iPad Pro,

00:57:29 ◼   ► and I think I might be jumping ahead here,

00:57:30 ◼   ► it has really crummy external display support

00:57:33 ◼   ► because I have a USB-C port, not a Thunderbolt port.

00:57:36 ◼   ► - But the iPad Air also, the iPad Air with M1

00:57:40 ◼   ► also only has USB-C, not Thunderbolt.

00:57:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, so anyway, swap is not required

00:57:47 ◼   ► because Apple's own specs say that you can run this without,

00:57:50 ◼   ► you can run Stage Manager on swap, right?

00:57:55 ◼   ► And it's not RAM because one of the iPads

00:57:58 ◼   ► that can run Stage Manager has the same amount of RAM

00:58:01 ◼   ► as iPads that can't, right?

00:58:03 ◼   ► And so maybe it's external display report.

00:58:06 ◼   ► So one other thing that Craig Federighi said

00:58:08 ◼   ► is that Stage Manager is quote,

00:58:10 ◼   ► "A total experience that involves

00:58:11 ◼   ► "external display connectivity."

00:58:13 ◼   ► You can imagine like being able to drive

00:58:16 ◼   ► a big external display and having sort of the, you know,

00:58:19 ◼   ► The video guts or GPU guts or hardware to do that

00:58:23 ◼   ► or whatever might be a feature that only exists on the M1s

00:58:26 ◼   ► because the M1s are designed to run

00:58:28 ◼   ► at least one external display.

00:58:30 ◼   ► And maybe like an A12Z wasn't, right?

00:58:33 ◼   ► Or maybe that brings over the RAM limit, right?

00:58:36 ◼   ► But that is very different from the idea that like,

00:58:40 ◼   ► look, you can only run this on the M1

00:58:41 ◼   ► for a bunch of really good reasons.

00:58:42 ◼   ► And it seems more like to get every single feature

00:58:46 ◼   ► that's part of stage manager probably requires an M1.

00:58:50 ◼   ► But people might be saying,

00:58:51 ◼   ► well, I don't care about external display.

00:58:52 ◼   ► I don't even have an external display connected to my iPad.

00:58:54 ◼   ► I just want to sit on the couch with my iPad

00:58:56 ◼   ► and be able to use stage manager.

00:58:58 ◼   ► And so we'll see what happens in this controversy.

00:59:01 ◼   ► Maybe Apple will just stick to its guns and say,

00:59:04 ◼   ► we'd rather just give you

00:59:05 ◼   ► the whole stage manager experience.

00:59:07 ◼   ► And even though you don't have an external display,

00:59:08 ◼   ► tough luck or whatever,

00:59:09 ◼   ► it could be that there are other things we don't know about

00:59:11 ◼   ► because the M1 is not just an A14X with like one,

00:59:14 ◼   ► you know, it's got a bunch of stuff that was added to it,

00:59:17 ◼   ► basically so it could be a Mac chip.

00:59:19 ◼   ► And maybe there's parts of that that have to do with

00:59:22 ◼   ► variable page size, for example,

00:59:23 ◼   ► is another thing the M1 has that a lot of other,

00:59:26 ◼   ► the other A series chips don't,

00:59:27 ◼   ► because it's an expectation of Mac OS.

00:59:30 ◼   ► You know, there's lots of other things

00:59:31 ◼   ► that the M1 could have that these things don't,

00:59:32 ◼   ► but so far Apple hasn't cited them specifically.

00:59:35 ◼   ► So it's still a little bit of a mystery.

00:59:37 ◼   ► Maybe they just wanna have a unified experience.

00:59:40 ◼   ► I'm not sure why people are raring

00:59:42 ◼   ► to have stage managers so much,

00:59:43 ◼   ► Maybe they just feel like, you know,

00:59:46 ◼   ► that my iPad is newish and never feels slow to me.

00:59:49 ◼   ► And what stage manager is doing doesn't seem

00:59:52 ◼   ► like it's asking the iPad to do much.

00:59:54 ◼   ► Like, oh, you mean I can see four different apps

00:59:56 ◼   ► on the screen at the same time?

00:59:57 ◼   ► Well, I can almost do that with like, you know,

00:59:59 ◼   ► split screen and slide over.

01:00:01 ◼   ► Like, what's the big deal?

01:00:02 ◼   ► Like, are you telling me my amazingly powerful iPad

01:00:05 ◼   ► can't handle a couple of windows on an angle

01:00:07 ◼   ► when this shrinky dink thing in the year 2006

01:00:11 ◼   ► was able to do it on a machine

01:00:13 ◼   ► with like 1/15th the power of like an A12Z iPad, right?

01:00:18 ◼   ► 'Cause that's what you have to remember.

01:00:19 ◼   ► Like Mac OS has been having millions of windows

01:00:22 ◼   ► on the screen and expose and all this stuff for years

01:00:24 ◼   ► with less RAM than an iPad, with slower CPUs than an iPad,

01:00:26 ◼   ► and granted it had swap during that time,

01:00:28 ◼   ► but like what's the hang up?

01:00:30 ◼   ► - And it swapped like crazy.

01:00:31 ◼   ► I mean, you know, people forget nowadays,

01:00:35 ◼   ► you might forget the experience of using a desktop computer

01:00:38 ◼   ► in the early 2000s, it was a lot of swapping

01:00:41 ◼   ► onto hard drives.

01:00:42 ◼   ► But no, I mean, it's not the--

01:00:45 ◼   ► I'm sure that the older iPad hardware has no problem

01:00:48 ◼   ► compositing the windows on the screen.

01:00:50 ◼   ► It's keeping all the apps in memory.

01:00:52 ◼   ► That's the challenge, because what the apps are doing

01:00:54 ◼   ► is very, very different.

01:00:56 ◼   ► But Macs had less RAM than that back then.

01:00:58 ◼   ► Yeah, and apps used less RAM back then.

01:01:00 ◼   ► Now everything's these crazy RAM bloat hogs.

01:01:03 ◼   ► And everything-- you have the higher resolution screens now.

01:01:05 ◼   ► All the image assets are bigger.

01:01:06 ◼   ► All the video RAM needs are bigger.

01:01:08 ◼   ► You have higher data assets being stored,

01:01:10 ◼   ► images loading and everything,

01:01:11 ◼   ► all that stuff is just bigger these days.

01:01:13 ◼   ► And apps take up hundreds of megs of RAM routinely now,

01:01:18 ◼   ► whereas back then that was significantly less common.

01:01:21 ◼   ► So that's the big difference is like,

01:01:23 ◼   ► yes, the old computers that did this,

01:01:25 ◼   ► yeah, they could do it just fine,

01:01:26 ◼   ► they can composite the windows on screen.

01:01:28 ◼   ► Today, the GPUs have no problem throwing those windows

01:01:31 ◼   ► around on screen, but it's the massive RAM footprint

01:01:35 ◼   ► of these apps, that's the limiting factor I bet.

01:01:38 ◼   ► I mean, the apps that are on iPad, like I said,

01:01:41 ◼   ► are apps that have grown up in an environment

01:01:43 ◼   ► where a swap is not available.

01:01:44 ◼   ► So they are actually pretty stingy with RAM.

01:01:46 ◼   ► Right, when you have one of them.

01:01:48 ◼   ► But you can already get, I think,

01:01:50 ◼   ► at least two plus one slide overs.

01:01:54 ◼   ► Like-- Center stage.

01:01:56 ◼   ► Stage Manager is limited to four apps, right?

01:01:59 ◼   ► Or four windows?

01:02:00 ◼   ► So it's not unlimited.

01:02:02 ◼   ► It's not like it's without bound.

01:02:04 ◼   ► There is a limitation on it.

01:02:05 ◼   ► And I think even without Stage Manager,

01:02:07 ◼   ► you can get almost that many different apps visible

01:02:09 ◼   ► on an iPad screen at the same time now.

01:02:11 ◼   ► - But it's eight if you plug in an external monitor.

01:02:13 ◼   ► - Right, well that's what gets to the monitor thing.

01:02:14 ◼   ► It's like, okay, but what if I don't,

01:02:16 ◼   ► what if I don't have an external monitor?

01:02:17 ◼   ► Let me use the stage manager,

01:02:18 ◼   ► and I promise I wanna connect to monitor,

01:02:20 ◼   ► and if I do, it will be disabled.

01:02:21 ◼   ► But it could be that Apple says,

01:02:22 ◼   ► well we don't wanna, we just wanna give

01:02:23 ◼   ► the whole experience, we don't wanna have the special mode

01:02:25 ◼   ► where it's like, well if you buy this iPad,

01:02:27 ◼   ► you can get stage manager, but then as soon as you plug in

01:02:29 ◼   ► an external display, you can't have it anymore,

01:02:30 ◼   ► or something like that.

01:02:31 ◼   ► - Well, and also, I mean, I think a big part of the reason

01:02:35 ◼   ► is these technical realities for sure.

01:02:38 ◼   ► I think a smaller part of the reason

01:02:40 ◼   ► is market segmentation.

01:02:41 ◼   ► Apple wants the iPad Pro to be pushed higher market,

01:02:45 ◼   ► and they want people to pay for Pro features.

01:02:48 ◼   ► You know, there's a lot of features where,

01:02:49 ◼   ► like if you look at the iPhone hardware thread history,

01:02:52 ◼   ► you know, sometimes some new feature to iOS would come out,

01:02:55 ◼   ► maybe it's a new camera feature, whatever,

01:02:57 ◼   ► where the older hardware might be capable of it,

01:03:00 ◼   ► but Apple restricts it to the new hardware

01:03:02 ◼   ► for market segmentation,

01:03:03 ◼   ► and to give people a reason to upgrade.

01:03:05 ◼   ► They do a pretty good job of making stuff available

01:03:08 ◼   ► to old hardware when possible, most of the time,

01:03:11 ◼   ► but not all of the time.

01:03:13 ◼   ► And sometimes they just do it for that reason

01:03:15 ◼   ► and that's their prerogative.

01:03:18 ◼   ► When you bought your iPad in 2018,

01:03:21 ◼   ► you didn't know about this feature

01:03:23 ◼   ► and you didn't buy this feature.

01:03:25 ◼   ► I don't fault them too much for restricting this

01:03:28 ◼   ► to only the newest stuff when there is some,

01:03:32 ◼   ► if not much, hardware justification for doing it,

01:03:35 ◼   ► in addition to this also pretty substantial

01:03:37 ◼   ► segmentation reason.

01:03:39 ◼   ► - I mean, the thing, that's the underlying thing in this,

01:03:41 ◼   ► is that people are angry because they feel like Apple

01:03:43 ◼   ► is saying like, there's no real reason for you to do this,

01:03:45 ◼   ► you're just doing this to make me buy another iPad,

01:03:47 ◼   ► which is the conspiracy theory that doesn't feel good, right?

01:03:50 ◼   ► But in many cases, the boring explanation of basically,

01:03:55 ◼   ► from Apple saying, we implemented this,

01:03:58 ◼   ► we tried it on the iPad that you're complaining

01:04:00 ◼   ► can't do this, and the experience wasn't good.

01:04:04 ◼   ► And you could say, oh, I don't believe you, or whatever.

01:04:07 ◼   ► But that's entirely plausible, because every time anyone

01:04:10 ◼   ► implements anything, the experience starts off

01:04:11 ◼   ► as not being good.

01:04:12 ◼   ► And it's a question of, how much time

01:04:14 ◼   ► does Apple want to spend optimizing

01:04:16 ◼   ► Stage Manager to make sure it works on A12Z or whatever?

01:04:19 ◼   ► Like at a certain point, you could say,

01:04:21 ◼   ► like, do we have to spend the time to say,

01:04:23 ◼   ► we know these can't handle external displays,

01:04:25 ◼   ► but these can.

01:04:26 ◼   ► Or it runs fine on the M1s, but it's not running.

01:04:29 ◼   ► It feels like kind of stuttery and janky on the A12Z iPads.

01:04:34 ◼   ► So how much time do you want to spend optimizing it

01:04:37 ◼   ► to get it to work on the A12Z iPads,

01:04:39 ◼   ► even though we know going forward,

01:04:40 ◼   ► everything's gonna be as fast as the M1 or better, right?

01:04:42 ◼   ► Those are the type of decisions that,

01:04:44 ◼   ► you can't really come out and explain that

01:04:46 ◼   ► and say basically we made a business decision

01:04:48 ◼   ► not to spend our time optimizing this so it works well,

01:04:50 ◼   ► but you have to start from the premise

01:04:52 ◼   ► that you believe them when they say we tried it

01:04:54 ◼   ► and it wasn't that great on these older iPads.

01:04:57 ◼   ► Now, Apple is responsive to customer complaints,

01:04:59 ◼   ► and this is beta one, so it could be

01:05:01 ◼   ► that they hear people complaining

01:05:03 ◼   ► and what Apple decides to do is,

01:05:04 ◼   ► okay, let's spend some time seeing

01:05:06 ◼   ► if we can get this to work on non-M1 iPads, right?

01:05:09 ◼   ► And so they put some engineering resources into that,

01:05:11 ◼   ► maybe they put it on those and they say,

01:05:13 ◼   ► well, you can't use external displays

01:05:14 ◼   ► 'cause they just don't have the extra RAM capacity

01:05:18 ◼   ► to push all those extra pixels or whatever,

01:05:20 ◼   ► but at least you can do it locally, right?

01:05:22 ◼   ► But that would be Apple choosing to spend the effort

01:05:24 ◼   ► to address that customer feedback.

01:05:27 ◼   ► And yeah, when you bought your iPad,

01:05:29 ◼   ► you didn't know center stage would appear,

01:05:30 ◼   ► but Apple customers in particular have an expectation

01:05:34 ◼   ► that when they buy hardware, it will continue to get updates

01:05:37 ◼   ► after a certain period of time.

01:05:38 ◼   ► And it's like, yeah, but if it's old and slow,

01:05:40 ◼   ► and I feel like it's out of date,

01:05:41 ◼   ► then I can't get the newest stuff.

01:05:42 ◼   ► But people look at this and they feel like

01:05:44 ◼   ► their iPad Pro from 2018, quote unquote,

01:05:47 ◼   ► should be able to do this.

01:05:49 ◼   ► And I have no doubt that Apple could make it work

01:05:51 ◼   ► on those iPads, it just may be way more difficult

01:05:54 ◼   ► than they think it was worth the effort to do.

01:05:56 ◼   ► 'cause again, something is missing from the A12Z

01:05:58 ◼   ► that's in the M1 or something like that

01:06:00 ◼   ► that we don't know about, there's some esoteric detail.

01:06:02 ◼   ► The performance was a little hitchy,

01:06:04 ◼   ► the SSD controller is a little bit slower,

01:06:06 ◼   ► like it's on the ragged edge of what's possible

01:06:08 ◼   ► because of some things we don't understand.

01:06:10 ◼   ► So we'll see what develops in this with the next show.

01:06:13 ◼   ► I mean, the people who are mad about it,

01:06:14 ◼   ► they'll probably get over it, and honestly,

01:06:17 ◼   ► maybe they'll use a stage manager and be like,

01:06:19 ◼   ► "Oh, I don't even like it anyway, so who cares?"

01:06:21 ◼   ► But if they remain Apple customers,

01:06:23 ◼   ► presumably eventually they'll buy another iPad

01:06:25 ◼   ► and I'll support it so this will take care of itself with time.

01:06:29 ◼   ► I don't know, I really think it's a combination of everything that you guys had said.

01:06:33 ◼   ► I think it's predominantly some legitimate problems that, or not problems, but constraints

01:06:41 ◼   ► that this old hardware has.

01:06:43 ◼   ► And I suspect that in a lot of cases, you know, maybe my iPad would work with it but

01:06:50 ◼   ► you couldn't use an external display or you were only limited to six apps open at once

01:06:54 ◼   ► or whatever the case may be.

01:06:56 ◼   ► And I certainly don't think Apple marketing,

01:06:58 ◼   ► whether or not the technical side of Apple,

01:07:00 ◼   ► I don't think Apple marketing has any interest in saying,

01:07:04 ◼   ► "Well, stage manager works on iPads as long as,

01:07:07 ◼   ► and if, and, and, well, maybe asterisk dagger, double deck."

01:07:10 ◼   ► Like, that's just not tenable.

01:07:13 ◼   ► It's just not, not for a company like the size of Apple.

01:07:16 ◼   ► And so I really would guess that it's a combination

01:07:21 ◼   ► of there are legitimate constraints

01:07:23 ◼   ► on older pieces of hardware, but they don't want to muddy the waters and say, "Well, if

01:07:28 ◼   ► you have a 2018, you can do this. And if you have a 2019, you can also do this. You have

01:07:33 ◼   ► a 2020, you can also do this." Like, if that were the case, we'd be raking them over the

01:07:36 ◼   ► coals for just not making it consistent across everything, maybe. But I don't think, for

01:07:42 ◼   ► all the things, for all the gross and slimy things Apple can, has, and will do, I don't

01:07:50 ◼   ► think this is on that list for me.

01:07:51 ◼   ► And I know that makes us just another show for Apple,

01:07:53 ◼   ► blah, blah, blah, but I really honestly,

01:07:55 ◼   ► I think anyone who's listened to the show

01:07:57 ◼   ► for more than four minutes knows that we will call out Apple

01:08:00 ◼   ► when we see them doing something gross.

01:08:02 ◼   ► I really don't think this is one of those times.

01:08:05 ◼   ► - And like I said, it feels like it's plausible

01:08:07 ◼   ► that they could hear this feedback and say,

01:08:08 ◼   ► all right, we're gonna spend some extra resources

01:08:11 ◼   ► during this beta cycle to get it to work

01:08:13 ◼   ► in a limited fashion on lesser iPads.

01:08:14 ◼   ► 'Cause I think it's totally technically plausible,

01:08:16 ◼   ► it's just a question of how much time

01:08:17 ◼   ► do you wanna spend doing that?

01:08:18 ◼   ► And their original judgment was,

01:08:19 ◼   ► let's not waste any time, let's just concentrate

01:08:21 ◼   ► on making good on the M1, they can reconsider that opinion

01:08:24 ◼   ► between now and the many months,

01:08:26 ◼   ► or it could be a point update, 16.1, 16.2,

01:08:29 ◼   ► like they've done a lot of big things in point updates,

01:08:30 ◼   ► so I wouldn't totally rule it out

01:08:32 ◼   ► that Apple won't do some limited form of this in the future

01:08:35 ◼   ► if the feedback continues to be a thing.

01:08:37 ◼   ► It could just be like, oh, this has to be something

01:08:39 ◼   ► people are angry about after WWDC,

01:08:42 ◼   ► and this will fade, but we'll see how it goes.

01:08:44 ◼   ► Oh, and one more final tidbit,

01:08:46 ◼   ► this is from an anonymous source.

01:08:47 ◼   ► Apparently the virtual memory swap feature on iPadOS

01:08:52 ◼   ► is something the engineering team is very proud of.

01:08:55 ◼   ► In particular, one of the neat things they did

01:08:57 ◼   ► is that none of the system demons

01:08:59 ◼   ► or any part of the OS are ever swapped out.

01:09:02 ◼   ► Only apps go to swap,

01:09:03 ◼   ► which obviously is not the way it works on macOS.

01:09:07 ◼   ► And macOS, you know, any piece of memory

01:09:09 ◼   ► could potentially be swapped out.

01:09:11 ◼   ► There is a concept in macOS,

01:09:13 ◼   ► and I think most versions of Unix or whatever,

01:09:15 ◼   ► where you can have a page of memory

01:09:17 ◼   ► that is quote unquote wired, which basically means

01:09:20 ◼   ► this page, this piece of memory, is not allowed

01:09:23 ◼   ► to ever be swapped out.

01:09:25 ◼   ► In particular, lots of parts of the kernel use wired memory

01:09:28 ◼   ► because as you can imagine, if the part of the kernel

01:09:30 ◼   ► that deals with virtual memory swap gets swapped out,

01:09:34 ◼   ► you've got a real problem on your hands.

01:09:36 ◼   ► Most parts of the kernel you probably don't want

01:09:38 ◼   ► to swap out.

01:09:39 ◼   ► So I do wonder how they implemented this.

01:09:41 ◼   ► I don't think they're wiring every single page

01:09:42 ◼   ► for every app that's not, for every app that's part

01:09:45 ◼   ► of the OS that's not a regular app.

01:09:47 ◼   ► So they probably did something special for this.

01:09:48 ◼   ► But anyway, it just goes to show the lengths they're doing

01:09:50 ◼   ► to try to still sort of eke out the,

01:09:54 ◼   ► as Federi was saying, the sort of the responsiveness

01:09:56 ◼   ► that people expect from iPads, right?

01:09:59 ◼   ► Where, you know, I don't entirely buy that indirect,

01:10:03 ◼   ► quote unquote, indirect manipulation,

01:10:04 ◼   ► it still grinds my gears when they say that,

01:10:06 ◼   ► but I don't know what they mean.

01:10:07 ◼   ► Indirect manipulation with a cursor.

01:10:10 ◼   ► You can put up a beach ball cursor,

01:10:11 ◼   ► and we don't love that, but that's part of the experience

01:10:13 ◼   ► when something like that happens.

01:10:14 ◼   ► but there is no equivalent of that with touch, right?

01:10:18 ◼   ► If you touch something and it doesn't react to your touch,

01:10:20 ◼   ► it feels broken immediately.

01:10:22 ◼   ► It's not an expected part of the iPad experience

01:10:25 ◼   ► to put your finger on the screen and try to do something,

01:10:27 ◼   ► whether you're dragging or tapping or whatever,

01:10:29 ◼   ► and nothing moves, you think your iPad is broken, right?

01:10:33 ◼   ► That is not, that's not an expectation, right?

01:10:36 ◼   ► So to, you know, and not having swap was one way to do that

01:10:39 ◼   ► because hey, swap takes a big variable out of the equation.

01:10:43 ◼   ► You know what your memory access times are,

01:10:44 ◼   ► You know how much RAM you have,

01:10:45 ◼   ► you have this thing going around killing applications

01:10:48 ◼   ► if they use too much memory, so you stay within the memory.

01:10:50 ◼   ► It's much more predictable.

01:10:52 ◼   ► Once you involve swap this,

01:10:54 ◼   ► there's this huge unpredictable performance cliff

01:10:56 ◼   ► that you may fall off of.

01:10:57 ◼   ► So to try to hold on to the essential iPad desk

01:11:01 ◼   ► to say, well, let's keep,

01:11:02 ◼   ► let's not ever let any part of the system be swapped out.

01:11:06 ◼   ► So that is everything that runs presumably like the dock,

01:11:08 ◼   ► the Windows server,

01:11:10 ◼   ► any OS processes that are in the background, the camera,

01:11:13 ◼   ► Like all the demons that run all the various things,

01:11:16 ◼   ► talking to iCloud, like who knows?

01:11:17 ◼   ► Any part of the OS or any part of those demons,

01:11:20 ◼   ► they do not get swapped.

01:11:21 ◼   ► What does get swapped is one of your umpteen apps

01:11:24 ◼   ► that you're running, right?

01:11:25 ◼   ► Or one of your four apps that's being shown

01:11:27 ◼   ► in Stage Manager.

01:11:29 ◼   ► God, every time I say that, I have to pause that.

01:11:31 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:11:32 ◼   ► So that's neat, I'd love to know more technical details

01:11:35 ◼   ► on that, if anyone knows, feel free to tell us.

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01:13:33 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:13:36 ◼   ► - All right, so I hear some really, really positive things

01:13:40 ◼   ► about system preference, system settings in Ventura.

01:13:43 ◼   ► So can you tell me all the good news about that, please?

01:13:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, speaking of controversies that happen after

01:13:48 ◼   ► you've seen people get mad about this is,

01:13:52 ◼   ► for a different group of people who are mad about this,

01:13:53 ◼   ► but a lot of people are mad about it,

01:13:55 ◼   ► and I would put myself kind of in that category.

01:13:57 ◼   ► So I think we complained about--

01:13:58 ◼   ► - I mean, it looks crappy.

01:13:59 ◼   ► - I think we talked about it in the last show,

01:14:01 ◼   ► but at the time we were talking about it in the last show,

01:14:02 ◼   ► we hadn't seen, because it hadn't been released yet,

01:14:05 ◼   ► the live talk show with Federighi and Jaws.

01:14:08 ◼   ► Did you see that live, Marco?

01:14:10 ◼   ► - I did, yeah, it was great, actually.

01:14:12 ◼   ► And frankly, I think it was a very, very good live talk show.

01:14:15 ◼   ► You know, I've been to all of them.

01:14:17 ◼   ► I really, really enjoyed all of them.

01:14:19 ◼   ► But this was very much up there as one of the best ones

01:14:22 ◼   ► because sometimes, depending on what's announced

01:14:27 ◼   ► and who he has up there and what kind of people,

01:14:32 ◼   ► what their moods are, maybe,

01:14:33 ◼   ► Certain years, you get more little tidbits out

01:14:36 ◼   ► of the Apple guests than other years.

01:14:39 ◼   ► This was one of the good years, where you really

01:14:41 ◼   ► got a lot out of them.

01:14:42 ◼   ► And there was a lot of explanation for certain things

01:14:45 ◼   ► that clarified certain things.

01:14:47 ◼   ► So it was actually-- I really enjoyed this one.

01:14:49 ◼   ► It was very good.

01:14:49 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:50 ◼   ► So we didn't have all these-- I didn't

01:14:51 ◼   ► have those explanations.

01:14:52 ◼   ► I had heard about them secondhand,

01:14:54 ◼   ► but of course, I didn't get to hear them actually say it.

01:14:55 ◼   ► So we'll put a link in the show notes.

01:14:57 ◼   ► It's a YouTube video.

01:14:58 ◼   ► You can watch the whole thing.

01:15:00 ◼   ► So regarding system settings, which

01:15:02 ◼   ► we complained about a little bit on the last show.

01:15:04 ◼   ► And this is system settings on the Mac,

01:15:06 ◼   ► previously called system preferences.

01:15:08 ◼   ► People have been complaining about the interface

01:15:09 ◼   ► because it has been totally redone

01:15:11 ◼   ► to look a little bit more like settings on iPad OS and iOS.

01:15:16 ◼   ► And more to the point, it looks nothing like it used to.

01:15:20 ◼   ► You know, any preference pane,

01:15:22 ◼   ► if you go into system preferences on your Mac right now,

01:15:24 ◼   ► that's not running Ventura,

01:15:26 ◼   ► none of those preference panes look like that anymore at all.

01:15:30 ◼   ► like no pixel is shared whatsoever.

01:15:32 ◼   ► And the app itself doesn't look like it used to, right?

01:15:34 ◼   ► And people have been complaining about it.

01:15:35 ◼   ► So Craig Fegury starting at,

01:15:38 ◼   ► we'll put a timestamp link at 43 minutes and 11 seconds

01:15:40 ◼   ► gives an explanation of why they decided

01:15:44 ◼   ► to overhaul system preferences