487: Mid-Life Rally


00:00:00   We have to start with some housekeeping right away.

00:00:02   Happy birthday, Marco.

00:00:04   You are 40 years old in what, like six days?

00:00:06   - Something like that, yeah, five.

00:00:08   - Yeah.

00:00:09   How you feeling?

00:00:10   - We've heard our friend Merlin always joke about

00:00:12   like, you know, getting older and he like,

00:00:14   apparently injured his ankle while sleeping

00:00:16   a few weeks ago.

00:00:17   And I have now, I was 40 for like 72 hours.

00:00:21   I woke up one morning, like a half hour

00:00:24   before my alarm was supposed to go off.

00:00:26   I thought, oh crap.

00:00:27   I convinced myself, all right, let's go back to sleep.

00:00:29   half hour later I wake up, I can't move.

00:00:32   (laughing)

00:00:33   So literally in that half hour,

00:00:36   I had somehow slept on my neck or shoulder

00:00:40   in some weird way that,

00:00:42   and like I do a lot of like core and flexibility exercises,

00:00:47   I am usually very healthy in these areas,

00:00:50   and yet somehow 72 hours after I turned 40,

00:00:55   I slept for 30 minutes and broke myself

00:00:57   and can't twist my body for two days now.

00:01:01   It's slowly getting better, but I'm like, oh my God.

00:01:03   Wow, that comes on quickly.

00:01:06   - I feel like the warranty doesn't run out

00:01:09   until the mid-40s, so I'm not sure what this is.

00:01:11   - I don't know, man.

00:01:12   I genuinely feel this is such a boring thing

00:01:15   for three old white guys to wind about

00:01:16   being three old white guys, but here we are.

00:01:19   But no, I feel like once I hit 35,

00:01:21   things that never ever used to bother me

00:01:24   started to occasionally bother me,

00:01:26   And I didn't have the planned obsolescence

00:01:28   of 40 in three days that you have had,

00:01:31   but I definitely will bend wrong

00:01:35   and can't twist my back for a week

00:01:38   or whatever the case may be.

00:01:39   Like all sorts of weird ailments

00:01:40   or I'll cough the wrong way

00:01:43   and suddenly my abdomen hurts for a day or two.

00:01:45   And I also, I'm not saying I exercise more or less

00:01:48   than Marco, but I exercise every day.

00:01:51   Again, maybe not the same way, maybe not as strenuously,

00:01:54   but I exercise every single day.

00:01:56   And I am probably the healthiest I've ever been in my life,

00:01:59   or at least certainly the strongest.

00:02:01   And yet still, if I look at something the wrong way,

00:02:05   suddenly like an entirely opposite end of my body is broken.

00:02:08   So yeah.

00:02:09   - Well, I don't understand how this is happening to Marco.

00:02:12   'Cause like I said on Twitter,

00:02:13   Marco is I think probably also

00:02:14   in probably the best shape of his life.

00:02:16   He's got rid of his banana allergy.

00:02:18   He's all trim and buff and doing all these exercises.

00:02:22   And like what-- - Well, not trim.

00:02:23   - Well, trim-er.

00:02:25   - Yes, well, yeah, I'm very strong in certain ways

00:02:30   I am not trim.

00:02:30   That's not a thing.

00:02:33   - Anyway, either way, you've definitely sort of had

00:02:35   a mid-life rally here, but now this whole sleep thing

00:02:38   has really set you back.

00:02:39   - I know, and like, ever since I got more serious

00:02:41   about fitness a few years ago and started doing

00:02:43   more and more stuff, having the trainer and everything,

00:02:46   like, our trainer's awesome, like, we'll do things

00:02:48   that exercise muscles that I didn't even know existed.

00:02:52   So like, you know, most of the problems most people have

00:02:54   when they're doing fitness stuff on their own,

00:02:56   maybe you go to a gym, maybe you have like a treadmill

00:02:59   or a bike at home, whatever it is,

00:03:01   usually most people can think of a few top hit muscle groups

00:03:04   that you should work and you don't think of everything else

00:03:06   'cause you're not a trainer,

00:03:07   you're not a professional in that area, you know?

00:03:09   I love our trainers so much because we,

00:03:11   it's always a variety of stuff we're doing

00:03:12   and it's always extra, all sorts of different muscles

00:03:14   like your inner hips or like, you know,

00:03:17   weird side bending things or something.

00:03:19   It's like stuff that you would never think

00:03:21   to even know how to exercise on your own,

00:03:22   let alone to do it correctly.

00:03:25   And so I'm very fortunate to have that.

00:03:26   And I've been able to avoid,

00:03:28   I don't have any RSI problems anymore.

00:03:30   I've been able to avoid lots of back problems I used to have.

00:03:34   That's all gone and fixed.

00:03:35   Well, asterisk it was.

00:03:37   I mean, it was fixed until last weekend when I turned 40.

00:03:41   (laughs)

00:03:43   But it's just, I've put in all,

00:03:45   and I guess this is why you put in the work, right?

00:03:49   You put in all that work.

00:03:50   You do all the fitness stuff because, yeah,

00:03:53   when you're 19, you're made of rubber

00:03:55   and you can do whatever you want and you won't get hurt.

00:03:59   But as you approach and then cross 40,

00:04:02   these things start adding up.

00:04:04   I'm so glad that I do all that stuff

00:04:07   because I can't imagine,

00:04:08   I'd probably be in way worse condition,

00:04:10   like I'm sure I'd be hurting constantly,

00:04:13   if I wasn't doing all the exercise stuff that I do.

00:04:16   And it's, oh my god, it's so disheartening

00:04:20   to somehow like sleep wrong for a half hour

00:04:23   and be hurting for two days.

00:04:25   - Shoulda got MarcoCare+.

00:04:27   (beeping)

00:04:29   - Speaking of which, I have unplugged my HomePods.

00:04:34   (Brennan gasps)

00:04:35   - Are you okay?

00:04:36   - They just don't work anymore.

00:04:37   Like they've, in the last couple of weeks,

00:04:40   I don't think I've gotten the stereo pairing to work once.

00:04:43   - Oh no.

00:04:44   - It's been such a rollercoaster.

00:04:45   They've gone up and down, you know,

00:04:47   we've had good times and bad times.

00:04:49   And this time, it just, they are so broken.

00:04:53   Like they're so unreliable in so many different ways.

00:04:56   They're slow, they don't respond to things.

00:04:58   They forget what they're saying halfway.

00:05:00   It's just everything about them is just broken.

00:05:03   They don't work reliably anymore.

00:05:04   And so I'm officially decommissioning them.

00:05:07   I unplugged them.

00:05:08   I actually, this is embarrassing.

00:05:11   I got some stupid thing from B&O.

00:05:14   It was supposed to be a really good replacement

00:05:16   And it lasted like two seconds on the counter

00:05:19   before it was rejected by the historical committee.

00:05:21   But it wasn't even good enough to keep,

00:05:24   like if I'm honest, it wasn't good enough

00:05:25   to be worth the stupid price.

00:05:27   So what I did now, I just plugged in a HomePod mini

00:05:31   up there which is not even close to sounding good

00:05:35   in the relatively large room it's placed in.

00:05:38   'Cause of course, it's a tiny little thing.

00:05:40   But I just, I wish Apple would fix the HomePod

00:05:44   and release a new big one.

00:05:45   because whatever they're doing with the Mini,

00:05:48   I don't wanna drill this into the ground,

00:05:49   but whatever they're doing with the Mini,

00:05:51   it's clearly running a different software stack

00:05:53   than the big one.

00:05:53   It's certainly a different hardware stack,

00:05:55   but I think the software stack is very different as well.

00:05:57   And so the big one just is so much more broken

00:06:01   in so many more ways.

00:06:02   The small one seems to work pretty well.

00:06:03   We have a few small ones around the house.

00:06:04   They seem to work pretty well.

00:06:06   The big ones just don't anymore.

00:06:07   And on one hand, I feel very burned

00:06:10   in the sense that these were expensive

00:06:12   and they aren't that old,

00:06:14   and they're already pretty much not functioning.

00:06:18   So on one hand I kinda feel burned.

00:06:20   On the other hand, I'm looking around the environment

00:06:24   and I'm like, I still just want Apple to make a good one.

00:06:26   I don't trust anyone else to do this

00:06:29   because I've looked around the market

00:06:31   and there just isn't anything good.

00:06:32   So I don't know what to do.

00:06:35   That's gonna be an ongoing thing.

00:06:36   I'm also, I'm kind of upset

00:06:37   because I also had to just replace my iPad keyboard

00:06:40   'cause it died.

00:06:42   - Oh. - Did it just turn 40?

00:06:44   (laughing)

00:06:46   - It is about four, it's almost four, so that's--

00:06:50   - It's 40 in overpriced accessory years.

00:06:52   - Right, you multiply it by 10 and yeah.

00:06:53   - Well, you know, which keyboard,

00:06:55   the floaty one or the not floaty one?

00:06:57   - The one that came out in 2018,

00:06:59   the Folio without the trackpad.

00:07:00   - Oh, okay, 'cause I was gonna say the floaty one

00:07:03   came out like early on in the pandemic, if I'm not mistaken.

00:07:05   So it wouldn't be four years old,

00:07:08   but no, I didn't realize, okay.

00:07:10   - I don't care for that one on the 11 inch

00:07:12   because, well, either side, just 'cause I'm not that much

00:07:15   of an iPad power user and it's so big and bulky

00:07:18   and expensive and the combined object you get

00:07:22   with the Magic Keyboard, which is the one you're talking

00:07:24   about with the trackpad, the combined object you get,

00:07:26   I did not like, I thought it was clunky,

00:07:29   I didn't like how hard it was to move the hinge

00:07:30   and it was very heavy and it was just like, forget it.

00:07:34   But I like the regular keyboard folios they've been making

00:07:37   since the iPad Pro forever ago.

00:07:39   I like those, those are great.

00:07:41   Those are like almost $200, like 160, 170 usually.

00:07:45   So they're almost 200 bucks.

00:07:46   They do die eventually.

00:07:48   We got one for my father-in-law a few years back,

00:07:51   and his just died this past year.

00:07:53   I've had one other one die before this.

00:07:56   Mine just died again.

00:07:58   And it seems like it's an electronic thing.

00:08:02   It's not a key switch failing thing.

00:08:03   It's something with the controller electronics

00:08:05   where it just won't appear to the iPad anymore.

00:08:09   The iPad will just think there's no keyboard connected,

00:08:10   and you can pop it off, pop it back on,

00:08:12   and it might reconnect, eventually that stops working.

00:08:15   Over time, even that doesn't work anymore.

00:08:17   It doesn't seem to be a dirty contacts thing,

00:08:19   it's like try cleaning the contacts, it's not that.

00:08:21   It just seems like these keyboards just die so often.

00:08:23   So worth pointing out, if you're gonna buy a $200,

00:08:26   or if you get the Magic Keyboard,

00:08:28   a $330, I think, dollar iPad keyboard.

00:08:31   - Yeah, whatever it is, it's a lot.

00:08:32   - Yeah, be aware they only last a few years.

00:08:35   Which again, I'm not happy about that either.

00:08:37   And through other various, this is,

00:08:39   I don't wanna make this too much of the Marco Show,

00:08:40   but through other various things that are mostly boring,

00:08:44   in the last couple of days, I have ordered both a new iPad

00:08:48   and a new iPhone for various reasons and family needs

00:08:52   and things like that off cycle.

00:08:55   And it feels really dirty.

00:08:56   I'm like, I know new stuff in both of those areas

00:09:00   is going to come out in a few months,

00:09:02   but I need them now.

00:09:04   So it's like I'm just, I'm becoming a normal person.

00:09:06   I have to just buy stuff and kinda not care

00:09:08   for these particular roles,

00:09:09   like well this thing's gonna be replaced

00:09:10   in a couple of months.

00:09:11   - Done 'em plenty of times too,

00:09:13   getting kids phones and stuff

00:09:15   when they don't wanna hand me down

00:09:16   or when they break a hand me down

00:09:17   and they need a new phone now

00:09:18   and you know a new one's coming in two months,

00:09:19   they just gotta buy.

00:09:20   - Yeah, I've been eyeing an M1 iPad Pro

00:09:23   'cause as I've said many times,

00:09:25   I'm on the 2018 iPad Pro,

00:09:26   which honestly still runs really well.

00:09:29   Like it's not brand new and the battery is a little eh,

00:09:31   but all things considered,

00:09:33   this thing is four years old or thereabouts

00:09:35   and it runs really well.

00:09:37   and i hear what you're saying about magic keyboard the flotie keyboard it is

00:09:41   heavy and bulky i disagree about the hinge but otherwise i agree with

00:09:43   everything you said

00:09:44   uh... but i i do really like it and i like uh... maybe i'm just easily news

00:09:48   but i like having a track that from time to time

00:09:51   so i still really like my pad but i'm looking at you know the beta and and

00:09:55   uh... center stage or whatever heck it's called no not center stage i'm doing

00:09:58   this stage manager

00:09:59   thank you stage manager

00:10:00   uh... and and i'm looking at not having an m one i pet program thinking mister

00:10:04   Should I get an iPad?

00:10:05   It's about time to upgrade, but no, I should wait.

00:10:07   Shouldn't I?

00:10:08   I should wait.

00:10:09   I should definitely wait.

00:10:10   - That's one of the reasons I upgraded.

00:10:11   So I didn't even have an iPad for most,

00:10:14   I don't even have a TV.

00:10:15   I didn't even have an iPad for most of the last year

00:10:19   because as my kid's iPad was breaking

00:10:22   and we were awaiting that product to be updated,

00:10:25   as that was happening, I lent him mine

00:10:26   for a span of a number of months.

00:10:28   So, and I just didn't have one for a while.

00:10:30   I hardly ever used the iPad.

00:10:31   However, now I have significant reason

00:10:34   to have an iPad for testing,

00:10:36   because now my app became a lot more resizable on the iPad.

00:10:40   (laughing)

00:10:41   And I have to really make sure that works.

00:10:43   And you can do, I think you can do some testing

00:10:45   in the simulator, but anyway.

00:10:46   So at the same time as I was thinking,

00:10:48   'cause again, I too have the 2018 11-inch iPad Pro.

00:10:53   And it's because, you know, for my uses it's fine.

00:10:57   - Yeah, I really do wanna point that out one more time.

00:10:59   I know I said it a second ago,

00:11:00   But this is a four year old device that,

00:11:03   for the sorts of things that Marco and I are doing

00:11:05   up until now, it's been fine.

00:11:07   Like it doesn't feel slow,

00:11:09   it doesn't feel like a four year old device.

00:11:11   It's actually held up stunningly well.

00:11:14   And I feel like we should applaud Apple for that.

00:11:16   But that being said, somebody buy me an M1 iPad Pro, please.

00:11:20   - Yeah, well that's the conclusion I came to.

00:11:22   Is like, I wanted a stage manager test device,

00:11:26   and I looked at the Air, I looked at the Pro,

00:11:28   and basically the pro could get to me faster.

00:11:31   And separately from that, I also,

00:11:33   there's a new role in my life for boring reasons,

00:11:37   but I now could use an iPad again,

00:11:39   like on a regular basis,

00:11:41   I kinda need like a separate device.

00:11:42   I need an iPad.

00:11:44   The iPad I currently own,

00:11:46   oh, and like over on my side of my desk

00:11:48   is Tiff's old 12.9 inch iPad, the previous Gen 1.

00:11:53   So I have the 12.9 and the 11, both from 2018,

00:11:57   sitting around not doing anything.

00:11:59   Meanwhile, I need an M1 version for testing.

00:12:02   - Man, that hurts.

00:12:03   - So I'm just like, all right,

00:12:04   so I did the Apple trade-in for both of them,

00:12:07   and the combined trade-in for both of them

00:12:08   gets me the cheapest M1 iPad, so I'm just like,

00:12:12   - Oh, nice. - I'll trade these two in

00:12:14   for the one I actually want,

00:12:16   and spend the $200 on a new keyboard,

00:12:18   and call it a day. (laughs)

00:12:20   - So wait, what's the story with the iPhone?

00:12:22   - Oh, and so that's a separate thing.

00:12:24   So that's a family member finally has accepted an iPhone.

00:12:29   And so for various reasons, not my kid,

00:12:33   just an older family member, finally,

00:12:34   we've been trying to get them on an iPhone for a long time,

00:12:35   we finally did, they agreed to take my old iPhone 12 mini.

00:12:40   Currently, before that, my main testing iPhones

00:12:44   for testing my app on different Apple IDs

00:12:46   and different store configurations, stuff like that,

00:12:48   and different OS versions,

00:12:49   my testing setup has been an iPhone 7

00:12:52   and my iPhone 12 mini.

00:12:54   Well, the 12 mini you just have to give in a way

00:12:56   and the iPhone 7 doesn't run iOS 16.

00:12:59   So I'm like, all right,

00:13:01   I could really use one more iPhone.

00:13:05   And so I went on Amazon and bought their refurbished,

00:13:08   renewed crap, used iPhone 13 mini.

00:13:13   So that way I will have the best mini phone

00:13:17   that was ever made, paid almost nothing for it

00:13:20   relatively to its new price.

00:13:22   And that will be a new good test phone, because it is both mini,

00:13:26   so it's cool, and I'll be happy when I pick it up.

00:13:28   And also, I can run all the latest stuff on it.

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00:15:23   - So popping up the stack several levels.

00:15:28   We also need to go back to our housekeeping

00:15:32   and congratulate John's son, Alex,

00:15:34   who is a high school graduate, which is very exciting.

00:15:36   - Hey!

00:15:37   - So how we feeling, dad?

00:15:39   - Good, I guess.

00:15:40   I mean, one thing I learned about his high school,

00:15:41   and I don't know if it's just his high school,

00:15:43   it seems like it'd be a trend.

00:15:45   When we were in high school, and maybe, I don't know,

00:15:48   I should say when I was in high school,

00:15:49   and maybe when you two were in high school as well,

00:15:51   the sort of tradition was that at graduation,

00:15:55   the school valedictorian would give a speech, right?

00:15:57   Is that a thing that you two experienced?

00:16:00   - I gave a speech at my high school graduation

00:16:01   'cause I was president of the graduating class,

00:16:03   thank you very much, but yes, it was valedictorian,

00:16:06   I think the salutatorian gave a speech in me,

00:16:08   if memory serves. - Yeah, there you go.

00:16:09   All right, so they don't do that as much anymore, I think,

00:16:12   And my son's school also, as far as I'm aware,

00:16:17   doesn't even give like rankings, academic rankings.

00:16:21   - Oh, interesting.

00:16:22   - And so instead what they do is everyone in the school

00:16:25   votes or something like that to say who should speak.

00:16:28   So they had a bunch of student speakers

00:16:29   and people voted for them and they got up to go up there

00:16:33   and talk, right?

00:16:34   But it's not based on like academic rank

00:16:35   or class president or anything like that.

00:16:38   Although I think one of the people that spoke

00:16:39   was someone involved in student government.

00:16:41   But anyway, I'm not quite sure how it works.

00:16:42   But all this is to say is that,

00:16:45   say okay, well there's no,

00:16:46   'cause I ask myself, what do you think your class rank was?

00:16:48   It's like, oh, they don't do that, dad.

00:16:50   You're so old.

00:16:50   And so I'm like, well, I can just say

00:16:55   that you are the number one in your class, right?

00:16:57   'Cause who knows?

00:16:58   I mean, you might have been, so.

00:17:01   - My class rank was 90 out of 180.

00:17:04   - Nice, nice.

00:17:05   - I was exactly the most mediocre student in my class.

00:17:08   - And that's, so the number, yeah,

00:17:10   The number like that is like, well, you know, academically,

00:17:13   the numbers are what they are,

00:17:13   but the numbers are so weird now

00:17:15   'cause they do waiting for like honors classes

00:17:17   and all sorts of weird stuff.

00:17:18   And some people do add a 5.0, some people do add a 4.0.

00:17:21   It's just so confusing.

00:17:22   So anyway, I'm just declaring my son

00:17:24   probably the valedictorian of his class.

00:17:26   Let's be honest.

00:17:27   (both laughing)

00:17:29   - Were his grades, all kidding aside,

00:17:30   were his grades that good?

00:17:31   - His grades were fantastic.

00:17:32   He did better in school than either of his parents.

00:17:35   - Oh, that's awesome.

00:17:36   - And I'm not asking you to upset the privacy clown

00:17:41   or whatever it is from Dubai Friday,

00:17:42   but he has a college plan or a post-graduate plan

00:17:46   or what have you.

00:17:47   - Yep, he's off to college.

00:17:48   You know, college admissions is rough

00:17:51   and college tuition is rough, but you know,

00:17:53   you can do what you can.

00:17:54   But he did a great in high school.

00:17:56   Very proud of him.

00:17:59   - Good. - Awesome.

00:17:59   - And then is he doing any sort of summer work

00:18:01   or anything like that or is he just chilling out?

00:18:03   - No.

00:18:04   I don't know what his,

00:18:05   I haven't been really--

00:18:06   I mean, this is the thing when you have a kid who's

00:18:08   like academically excellent.

00:18:10   You feel bad.

00:18:12   It's like my wife's inclination, especially

00:18:14   to get on his case about school work.

00:18:16   It's like, look, his grades are perfect.

00:18:19   Like, it's nothing--

00:18:21   and yeah, sometimes it does seem like he's slacking

00:18:23   or whatever.

00:18:24   But it's like, you can't argue with results, right?

00:18:27   There's no higher grade attainable.

00:18:30   There's no higher scores attainable.

00:18:32   And so anyway, so what is he doing for summer?

00:18:34   you should be pressuring him to do something or whatever."

00:18:36   It's like, "Nah."

00:18:38   I feel like if you do really awesome in high school

00:18:40   and your parents never have to bug you about it,

00:18:41   one of your rewards is you can probably do

00:18:43   whatever the hell you want between,

00:18:44   the summer between high school and college.

00:18:47   I don't know, I'm gonna encourage him

00:18:48   to do something or other, but who knows if he will.

00:18:50   And honestly, he's earned the ability

00:18:53   to just goof off all summer if he wants.

00:18:54   Hopefully he doesn't listen to this podcast,

00:18:56   but he doesn't, it's fine.

00:18:58   - You know, I hear, Jon, that success hides failure.

00:19:00   - No, success hides problems, come on.

00:19:02   - Oh, that's what it is, damn it.

00:19:03   - I was trying to be smart,

00:19:04   and clearly I'm not as smart as Al.

00:19:05   - There's more to life than academic success.

00:19:07   That is definitely true.

00:19:09   - Oh my God, there's so much more.

00:19:10   - That is very true.

00:19:11   - But academic success is nice too.

00:19:13   - Academic success matters a lot when you're in it

00:19:16   and right after you're in it.

00:19:18   And then it doesn't matter at all.

00:19:19   - That is also true.

00:19:20   - Matters a lot when you're trying

00:19:21   to get into college though, just FYI.

00:19:22   - Right, that qualifies as the right after you're in it.

00:19:25   As soon as you do the next thing after it,

00:19:28   it stops mattering at all.

00:19:29   - Well, if you wanna go to graduate school,

00:19:30   kinda helps if you do well as an undergraduate.

00:19:32   - Yeah, well then that's the next thing after it.

00:19:34   - All right, 'cause some people just--

00:19:35   - It's a recursive problem, John.

00:19:36   - Keep doing that forever.

00:19:37   They just never leave academia.

00:19:39   - Do you, to the extent you're willing to discuss

00:19:42   on this You're Not Feelings program,

00:19:44   do you have plans for him with regard to a computer

00:19:48   to go to college and/or automobile to go to college?

00:19:50   - Yeah, I'm already excited

00:19:52   about those educational discounts.

00:19:54   - Yeah, baby.

00:19:54   - This Friday, I'm ordering him a new M2 MacBook Air.

00:19:59   He chose the boring color.

00:20:00   I tried to push the midnight.

00:20:02   he was just not having it, so he's picking Space Gray, whatever.

00:20:05   That's the worst.

00:20:07   I like it too.

00:20:08   It would be my site.

00:20:09   Anyway, that's what he picked.

00:20:10   It's his computer.

00:20:12   With his educational discount, love those savings.

00:20:15   But then I am going to take advantage of it.

00:20:18   You can go to the eDU store and check out to the point--

00:20:20   you can't actually order it, but you

00:20:21   can go through the whole config process and everything.

00:20:24   And when you scroll down, you configure your computer,

00:20:26   and it's like, what else do you want?

00:20:27   Do you want Final Cut Pro?

00:20:28   Do you want Logic?

00:20:29   You know when Apple does that on their sites?

00:20:31   Well, in the EDU store--

00:20:32   The optimistic upsells.

00:20:34   In the EDU store, they said, do you

00:20:36   want the student professional something something bundle?

00:20:39   I was like, huh, what's this?

00:20:40   For $199, you get Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, Motion,

00:20:46   and like two other things that I can't remember.

00:20:48   But just--

00:20:48   Whoa.

00:20:49   Like Final Cut Pro itself is like, what, $300, $200?

00:20:52   I think it's two or $300, yeah.

00:20:53   Logic is like $100.

00:20:54   Like, there's a lot of savings.

00:20:56   Yeah, I think it's about a 50% discount, I think.

00:20:58   I'm going to get that bundle.

00:20:59   Like, you can't beat those savings.

00:21:01   And maybe he'll use them, maybe he won't,

00:21:02   but I want, but see, I want those apps to be mine.

00:21:05   Like, I want the computer to be his,

00:21:07   but I want those apps to be mine.

00:21:09   And so I'm like, when I buy that,

00:21:10   are they gonna like give me a promo code

00:21:12   that I enter in the app store?

00:21:13   Does that mean I have to buy it on my Apple ID,

00:21:15   but then will I get the either you discount?

00:21:17   So I gotta figure that out, you know.

00:21:18   But anyway, Friday in the morning

00:21:20   is when the MacBook Air goes on sale

00:21:22   and I'm getting him that for school.

00:21:24   He already has, he already has one code,

00:21:26   an old M1 MacBook Air. - Wait, hold on.

00:21:27   I think only the 13-inch Pro goes on sale this Friday.

00:21:32   They haven't announced the on-sale date for the Air yet.

00:21:34   - But as soon as it goes on sale, I'm getting it.

00:21:37   And he just wants, you know, the M1 MacBook Air

00:21:39   is technically this family's,

00:21:41   and this will be actually his computer, so, yeah.

00:21:44   - That's fair.

00:21:44   Is he bringing a car to school or anything like that?

00:21:46   - No, there's no car for him to bring.

00:21:47   - Well, there could be.

00:21:49   - But there's not.

00:21:50   (laughing)

00:21:52   - This is why I asked the question.

00:21:53   - You get a renewed refurbished one on Amazon

00:21:55   for not that much money.

00:21:56   His tuition costs much more than any car I've ever purchased.

00:22:01   I will never forget my dad telling me, sitting me down before I went to Virginia Tech, and

00:22:05   tech was cheap, even out of state.

00:22:08   But he sat me down and he said, "I just want you to know," because he had just like a year

00:22:11   or two before bought himself his second Wrangler of the three that he's owned.

00:22:15   And he said, "I just want you to know, you going to school is like me driving the Jeep

00:22:20   off a cliff and then doing it again next year and doing it again next year."

00:22:25   - Thanks, Dad.

00:22:26   That makes me feel real great.

00:22:27   Thanks so much.

00:22:28   Oh, goodness.

00:22:29   All right, well, congratulations, Marco,

00:22:31   for surviving till 40 in what, two days?

00:22:33   And congratulations, Alex, for graduating high school.

00:22:37   All three of us are very proud of the two of you.

00:22:41   So very well done.

00:22:42   As per tradition, we need to do the follow-up episode,

00:22:45   since it was just a big Apple event,

00:22:47   and we need to do what will almost surely be an episode,

00:22:50   almost entirely a follow-up.

00:22:51   And let's start with iCloud Shared Photo Library,

00:22:55   which unfortunately, but understandably,

00:22:57   is not in any of the betas, but we have news about this.

00:22:59   - Understandably, I was disappointed not to find it there.

00:23:02   I was looking around, I'm like, "Where is this?

00:23:03   "How do you do it?" or whatever.

00:23:04   I had to ask, and they're like,

00:23:04   "Oh yeah, no, it's not in the betas."

00:23:06   They didn't say that on the thing.

00:23:08   They just did a whole presentation,

00:23:10   got me all excited about this new feature,

00:23:11   and they didn't say, "Oh, and by the way,

00:23:12   "this is totally not in the beta.

00:23:14   "It'll be in the beta eventually,

00:23:15   "but it's not in the current beta."

00:23:16   So I was disappointed by that.

00:23:17   - It's always shady when they do the like,

00:23:20   "Well, if you upgrade this device,

00:23:21   everything else is screwed, you know?

00:23:23   Which I understand why it's like that,

00:23:26   'cause you're doing new things in iCloud

00:23:28   and that server side and blah, blah, blah,

00:23:29   but it gets a little squishy, so I can understand it.

00:23:31   - By the way, this feature is another reason

00:23:34   to have testing Apple IDs,

00:23:36   which Apple does not make easy to do

00:23:38   and has caused me problems in the past,

00:23:39   but I still have a couple of them rattling around,

00:23:41   and yeah, I'm not letting iCloud shared photo library

00:23:43   anywhere near my real Apple ID until it is out

00:23:46   and tested by somebody who's not me.

00:23:49   - In any case, somebody, I guess John

00:23:51   had noticed a tweet from Jason Snell with regard to,

00:23:54   excuse me, from Jason with regard to

00:23:57   what happens with the sharing allocations.

00:24:01   And so Jason wrote,

00:24:02   "If you're sharing with someone in the family,

00:24:04   "it just uses the shared family allotment once,

00:24:07   "not multiple times.

00:24:08   "If you share with someone not in a family plan with you,

00:24:11   "I believe the person sharing the images

00:24:13   "is the one who quote unquote pays for the storage."

00:24:16   And then Jason went on to say,

00:24:17   I think this is more of Jason, I didn't put this in.

00:24:19   - No, that's not me, this is me clarifying

00:24:21   because when I saw it, I'm like, wait a second,

00:24:22   you have to pay, like if I share a shared library with Casey,

00:24:26   I have to pay for that storage, so I got a clarification.

00:24:29   This is just me interpreting the clarification.

00:24:32   - Okay, and so apparently I'm reading for John now.

00:24:35   It doesn't subtract it, it's just using your storage.

00:24:39   So if you share with someone outside the family

00:24:40   and you contribute 200 gigabytes

00:24:42   and they contribute 200 gigabytes,

00:24:43   then you each pay for what you contribute,

00:24:45   but it's not double counted.

00:24:46   - Yeah, this is a worry a lot of people have

00:24:47   with any sharing thing, especially since I think Dropbox,

00:24:50   I don't know if they still do it this way,

00:24:51   but I think they originally did it the terrible way

00:24:52   where it's like, if you do a shared folder in Dropbox,

00:24:55   everybody has that storage counted

00:24:57   towards their total allotment, which is just terrible

00:25:00   because you know that they're not storing the data 17 times

00:25:02   or whatever.

00:25:03   But so it seems like the iCloud shared photo library

00:25:06   works the way you would want it to.

00:25:08   And that you don't double or triple or quadruple count.

00:25:11   The stuff is only stored once.

00:25:13   And if you have a shared photo library

00:25:15   where you contribute some photos and so does somebody else

00:25:17   and you do different family things,

00:25:18   you just each pay for whatever you've contributed.

00:25:21   It's as if it was in just your own regular library.

00:25:24   - Copy paste edits in photos.

00:25:27   According to the Iowa 16 preview on Apple's website,

00:25:30   you can copy the edits you've made to a photo

00:25:32   and then paste them onto another photo or a batch of photos.

00:25:35   I presume that you're very excited about this, Jon.

00:25:38   - This is actually a big deal.

00:25:39   This is something that Lightroom had forever ago,

00:25:41   and I remember that was one of the big

00:25:43   life-changing moments when I had a huge set of photos

00:25:47   that I just shot and maybe I wanted to adjust

00:25:49   the white balance on all of them at once

00:25:51   'cause it was set a little bit wrong or something like that.

00:25:54   It's really nice to have this kind of feature.

00:25:55   Or you tweak your photos a certain way

00:25:58   and maybe you wanna apply them all to a big batch.

00:26:01   It's a really nice feature to have

00:26:02   and it's something that pro workflows expect

00:26:05   and have expected for quite some time.

00:26:07   So it's nice to see.

00:26:08   - I think Aperture might have had a similar feature

00:26:10   and one of the things I always remember

00:26:12   is from like OmniGraffle where you could copy subsets

00:26:15   styling and then paste that styling with a special tool onto other things.

00:26:19   And so yeah, this is definitely a useful feature, but, and I, well I don't know this for a fact,

00:26:24   but I just saw the URL that this page was on is like iOS 16 preview features, right?

00:26:29   I checked the Mac OS, you know, Ventura preview whatever thing and this wasn't listed there.

00:26:35   So it's cool that you can do this from the iOS and iPad OS photos application, but you

00:26:42   can't do it from the Mac one?

00:26:43   I don't know that to be true.

00:26:45   Again, the Mac Photos application doesn't even

00:26:47   have the shared thing in it yet,

00:26:48   so maybe it will be on the Mac too.

00:26:49   But I really hope, because I don't spend my time

00:26:52   doing photo edits on my phone or my iPad.

00:26:54   I do them on my Mac, so I hope this feature

00:26:56   comes there as well.

00:26:57   - Eric DeRider has some thoughts on Safety Check,

00:27:00   which are really, really useful.

00:27:02   Eric writes, "Safety Check looks like a great feature,

00:27:04   but in the meantime, and for those who can't

00:27:06   or won't update to iOS 16, Apple has a guide

00:27:08   to do some of these things manually,

00:27:10   and there is a personal safety user guide

00:27:12   that we will link to, which discusses

00:27:14   how to take care of yourself with regard

00:27:16   to personal safety and your devices, which is pretty cool.

00:27:18   Yeah, that's exactly why this feature needs to exist,

00:27:20   because you read that document, and your eyes start to glaze

00:27:22   over, and it's just so much work.

00:27:23   And expecting someone to do that at a very difficult time

00:27:26   of their life and a limited amount of time

00:27:28   and do it carefully and do it perfectly

00:27:29   is probably too much to ask.

00:27:30   But worst case scenario, you do have some recourse,

00:27:34   even if you don't have iOS 16.

00:27:36   Yep, which is excellent.

00:27:37   All right, tell me about pass keys, John.

00:27:39   This is a question a lot of people had.

00:27:41   There's a lot of misunderstanding about PassKeys,

00:27:43   but one of the questions is like,

00:27:44   how do I share this with somebody?

00:27:45   This came up in this program.

00:27:45   You're like, well, you know, technologically,

00:27:47   there's nothing stopping you from doing what you can do

00:27:49   with one password, which is like put it

00:27:50   into a shared family vault or whatever.

00:27:52   As far as I can tell, Apple does not have the concept

00:27:55   of a shared family iCloud keychain.

00:27:58   Now that we've got it for photos,

00:27:59   it makes me want it everywhere else.

00:28:00   I think on past shows, I said,

00:28:03   Apple should do it with contacts

00:28:04   'cause it's like so much a small use case,

00:28:05   shared family contacts, library, whatever,

00:28:09   Shared Family iCloud Keychain.

00:28:11   All those things should happen, but they don't yet exist.

00:28:14   But Apple's solution to the idea of sharing a password

00:28:17   with somebody, like say you sign up for an account

00:28:19   with a passkey, and you just send the password

00:28:23   to someone in your family if they want to log into.

00:28:25   How do I do that with a passkey?

00:28:27   Well, in Apple's WWDC session about passkeys this year,

00:28:31   starting at around six minutes and 14 seconds,

00:28:33   you can see their answer.

00:28:34   And their answer is you AirDrop it to them.

00:28:35   So you can go into passwords on your phone,

00:28:38   and you just AirDrop it like you AirDrop anything else.

00:28:40   And why is it AirDrop and not like email or messages

00:28:44   or whatever, I assume they want you to be in proximity

00:28:46   so you kind of know who you're sending it to

00:28:48   because AirDrop doesn't work like, you know,

00:28:49   over hundreds of miles or whatever.

00:28:51   They don't really talk about that.

00:28:53   But anyway, that is the thing that works.

00:28:55   You can AirDrop a passkey to somebody.

00:28:57   And for people who don't,

00:28:59   who have some misunderstanding about this,

00:29:02   it's not like you have one passkey and that's it.

00:29:04   Every single account on every single service

00:29:07   has its own public private key pair, right?

00:29:10   So you can have 50 accounts on mycoolsite.com

00:29:13   and they all have separate pass keys

00:29:16   and they're all, you can pass them around.

00:29:17   It's just like a password, right?

00:29:18   It's instead of username and password,

00:29:20   it's username and pass key, right?

00:29:21   And all the stuff we talked about

00:29:23   of how they're unlocked or whatever is,

00:29:25   it's the pass key stuff.

00:29:26   But in the end, there is one of them

00:29:28   for every single account and there's no limitation

00:29:30   that you can, it's not like tied to your Apple ID

00:29:33   or tied to your phone and I can only have one account

00:29:35   on this service because it's tied to my phone,

00:29:38   you can have as many as you want,

00:29:39   and you can pass them around with AirDrop

00:29:41   just like any other data.

00:29:42   - And then, how do you recover pass keys

00:29:45   if you lose all your devices?

00:29:46   - Yeah, Apple has a document about this,

00:29:48   and it's an interesting question,

00:29:50   like say your house burns down, right?

00:29:51   And it had all your stuff in it,

00:29:53   it had all your backup codes,

00:29:54   it had all your iOS devices, right?

00:29:57   - We were sponsored this week by Backblaze.

00:29:58   - Yeah. - No, just kidding.

00:30:00   - Well, that's the question.

00:30:01   So if you have passwords, you could say,

00:30:03   well, I put a text document and I put it in Backblaze

00:30:06   or whatever, and so I'll just like,

00:30:07   if I can just restore from Backblaze

00:30:08   and I'll see what my password was

00:30:09   and I'll get back all my stuff.

00:30:10   But passkeys, the whole point of them is

00:30:12   they don't leave your device, right?

00:30:14   Other than apparently how they get airdropped,

00:30:16   and I'm not quite sure how they do that in a secure way,

00:30:17   but it's, you know, Apple end to end,

00:30:19   so they figure out some way to do it.

00:30:20   But anyway.

00:30:21   - Right, but like the private keys are not

00:30:22   just sitting in a file somewhere, right?

00:30:23   - They're in a secure enclave,

00:30:25   and they're in iCloud Keychain, which is end to end encrypted,

00:30:27   and if you like don't know your, you know,

00:30:31   Apple ID, password, like if you lose all the hardware devices

00:30:34   and you don't remember stuff, how do you get anything back?

00:30:37   And Apple actually has solutions to this.

00:30:39   One of them that's a big one and a fairly new one

00:30:41   that we talked about in past shows is

00:30:43   have a recovery contact where you can have another person

00:30:46   be sort of your backstop and say,

00:30:48   if all else fails and everything screws up,

00:30:50   this person who I better super duper trust

00:30:52   can help me get my stuff back.

00:30:54   And I actually set that up today.

00:30:55   Last time I tried to set it up,

00:30:56   it was complaining about like minimal S versions of devices.

00:30:59   You basically have to kick out any devices

00:31:01   that have really old OSs.

00:31:02   Like I had an iPod that was still listed

00:31:04   as belonging to my Apple ID and stuff,

00:31:06   or my iPhone 7 was still registered for Apple Pay.

00:31:09   You can go to appleid.apple.com

00:31:12   and just delete those devices,

00:31:14   'cause they're all in the attic and erased now anyway,

00:31:16   so they don't have anything on them.

00:31:17   But once you do that, you can set up a recovery contact.

00:31:20   You could also have this sort of like

00:31:22   fallback recovery code thing that you can do

00:31:25   where you call Apple on the phone

00:31:26   and they have something in escrow for you

00:31:28   you prove who you are, read the document,

00:31:31   put it in the show notes, but the point is,

00:31:33   even if you lose everything, you can,

00:31:36   there are ways to recover some of your stuff.

00:31:39   Some of it might involve you putting a piece of paper

00:31:40   in a security deposit box somewhere,

00:31:42   or giving it to somebody that's your

00:31:43   if all else fails thing, but yeah.

00:31:47   And it's a pretty unlikely scenario that you would

00:31:50   not only lose every single hardware device you own

00:31:52   that is signed into your Apple ID,

00:31:53   but also not know any of your passwords.

00:31:56   I guess it's envisioning a world

00:31:57   where there are no more passwords,

00:31:58   but it's just pass keys and what if everything

00:31:59   that had that pass key in this key enclave is gone?

00:32:02   Apple has thought of that.

00:32:03   It is complicated but it is not entirely unsolvable.

00:32:06   So check out the links in the show notes

00:32:07   if you wanna see what Apple's thinking is

00:32:08   on how to deal with that.

00:32:10   - We are sponsored this week by Linode,

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00:34:09   - All right, tell me about the M2.

00:34:14   - So we're wondering what's the deal with the M2.

00:34:16   They told us the stats, oh, it's like X percent faster,

00:34:19   whatever, we didn't know anything more about it

00:34:21   on last week's show.

00:34:22   Well, now we do know more from this site Semi-analysis.

00:34:27   I read their big analysis of looking at the die shot

00:34:30   and what they say seems to hold some weight to me,

00:34:33   assuming these die shots are vaguely accurate.

00:34:36   It's A15 stuff in there, right?

00:34:37   So it's the A15 power cores

00:34:40   and the A15 efficiency cores, right?

00:34:43   So if you're wondering,

00:34:44   is it just an A14 with an extra GPU core

00:34:46   or an M1 with extra GPU core?

00:34:48   It's not.

00:34:48   It's A15 stuff inside there.

00:34:50   And the power core is actually bigger than it is.

00:34:55   Well, it's obviously bigger than it is in M1,

00:34:56   and it's also bigger than it is in the A15.

00:34:58   It's 21% bigger than in the M1

00:35:00   and 7% bigger than in the A15.

00:35:03   And a lot of that has to do with like the L2 cache

00:35:05   being bigger than it was in the A15,

00:35:06   but the core itself, computation-wise, is the A15.

00:35:10   The E-cores look about the same.

00:35:12   There is the faster LPDDR6400 memory controller,

00:35:16   which apparently costs more money,

00:35:18   but that's how you get the extra memory bandwidth.

00:35:20   So, you know, it is, like I said last week,

00:35:23   it is definitely a worthy successor to the M1.

00:35:26   The M1 had A14 stuff in it, the M2 has A15 stuff in it.

00:35:30   It's a slightly better five nanometer process,

00:35:33   which comes with it, you know, on its own.

00:35:36   Even if you just fab the M1 in the, you know,

00:35:39   the straight up M1 with this new process,

00:35:41   it would get a little bit of boost in power,

00:35:44   you know, power savings or, you know,

00:35:46   a computer per watt or whatever.

00:35:47   So, the M2 is looking pretty good.

00:35:50   Like it's not super duper fantastic,

00:35:52   but it is definitely a reasonable successor to the M1.

00:35:57   - One thing that I do have a little bit of reservation

00:36:00   about that I, you know, we'll have to just see the machines

00:36:03   and use them to really know, but we don't know yet,

00:36:06   you know, I kind of alluded to last week,

00:36:08   like with the new MacBook Air, again, it's fanless again,

00:36:11   and you know, presumably the same thing will apply

00:36:13   to all the M2-based iPads that are presumably

00:36:16   gonna come out soon, because I just bought an M1 one,

00:36:18   so the M2 ones must be coming out like tomorrow.

00:36:21   Actually, it'll come out, what's the return period,

00:36:23   15 days, it'll come out 16 days from now.

00:36:26   But anyway, is that we don't really know yet,

00:36:29   like it does look like it might have a higher thermal load

00:36:34   when it's under full load,

00:36:36   because the die itself got significantly bigger,

00:36:40   and the performance cores got bigger,

00:36:43   and there was a leaked Geekbench result that came out today

00:36:46   that look like they clocked it up a little bit too.

00:36:48   And so it wouldn't surprise me if this might get throttled

00:36:53   more than the M1 did in fanless enclosures.

00:36:56   So again, we will have to see,

00:36:58   hopefully I'm wrong about that,

00:37:00   because that was one of the best things about the M1

00:37:02   is that it pretty much never throttled

00:37:03   unless you were really crushing both CPU and GPU.

00:37:07   So we'll see what happens with the M2,

00:37:08   but in case you were waffling over maybe getting an error

00:37:12   or the quote pro, which we'll get to,

00:37:15   But that decision, we don't really have all the information

00:37:19   yet until we learn what is the trade off

00:37:21   by making the M2 fanless?

00:37:23   Does it get a little bit hotter than the M1?

00:37:25   Does it have to throttle at some point

00:37:26   sooner that you might hit,

00:37:27   where you wouldn't have hit it on the M1?

00:37:29   And the answer is we just don't know yet.

00:37:31   - Well the thing with the,

00:37:32   I wish I had the number on this offhand,

00:37:33   but the new five nanometer process,

00:37:36   again comes with it some percentage

00:37:37   of better power efficiency.

00:37:40   If that percentage is around the same percentage

00:37:43   as the sort of area increase and the clocking increase.

00:37:47   If those two balance each other out,

00:37:49   it should be about the same as the M1, right?

00:37:51   'Cause these numbers aren't big.

00:37:52   If you look at how much bigger it is than the M1,

00:37:54   it's like, I don't know, 10, 15% bigger.

00:37:57   But if you get 10, 15% more power savings

00:37:59   from the new process, it may just be a wash.

00:38:02   We'll find out for the testing.

00:38:03   Also, we don't even know what the cooling solution

00:38:06   looks like inside the fanless M2 MacBook Air.

00:38:09   You can solve a lot of problems with more heat pipes

00:38:12   and more surface area and more little fins and stuff.

00:38:13   So we'll see.

00:38:14   - The M2 MacBook Air comes with color matched

00:38:18   MagSafe cables, which makes me very jealous.

00:38:20   This is unlike my MacBook Pro,

00:38:22   which just used a, what is it, silver MagSafe connector.

00:38:26   - Yeah, no matter what color MacBook Pro you get,

00:38:28   you get the plain silver MagSafe connector,

00:38:31   but the color match cable--

00:38:32   - Which supports my assertion that the silver

00:38:34   is the best color of MacBook Pro.

00:38:36   - So the color match, I wish I had a picture of it here

00:38:39   in the notes, but I think they're like,

00:38:40   the cord is colored to match the MacBook Air or something.

00:38:43   - And the little metal end.

00:38:45   But no, you can actually, you can buy those separately

00:38:46   as of whenever these things launch.

00:38:49   There's a separate listing on Apple's website somewhere

00:38:50   where you can actually, so if you want,

00:38:52   even though Apple should have given you

00:38:53   the color-matched version to begin with

00:38:54   with your boring space gray laptop,

00:38:56   you can now go buy the boring space gray

00:38:58   MagSafe cable by itself.

00:39:00   - Well, good to know.

00:39:01   Also, the M2 MacBook Air has a 500-nit P3 screen.

00:39:04   - Yeah, last week, Marco mistakenly said

00:39:07   that it didn't have P3 and that the M2 MacBook Pro

00:39:10   also didn't have P3, they both have P3.

00:39:12   So they're 100 nits brighter,

00:39:13   well the MacBook Air is 100 nits brighter than it was

00:39:15   and they are both P3.

00:39:16   - Yep, my bad.

00:39:18   - Desk view, what is the situation with cameras in desk view?

00:39:22   - We were talking last week about how it's using

00:39:23   the wide angle camera to get a view of you

00:39:25   and a view of your desk surface, your physical desktop.

00:39:29   Well apparently if you are using it

00:39:32   and you use the regular camera to see your face,

00:39:35   It will then also simultaneously use the wide camera

00:39:38   to see your physical desktop.

00:39:40   So we'll use two cameras at once.

00:39:41   And one of them is just using just to look at your fingers

00:39:44   or whatever you have on your desk

00:39:45   and the other is looking at your face.

00:39:46   So it's nice that you're not limited to using the

00:39:48   probably pretty bad, potentially center stage powered

00:39:51   super ultra wide camera for your face.

00:39:53   You can use the regular camera for that

00:39:54   and just use the super ultra wide one

00:39:57   to be able to see your desktop.

00:40:00   - And then with regard to messages, according to Tobias,

00:40:03   you can finally scroll through long messages

00:40:05   from the normal UI, no more long press, et cetera.

00:40:08   And also audio recording has been moved

00:40:10   to the iMessage app area, woo!

00:40:11   That's exciting.

00:40:12   - I didn't confirm any of this, but I assume,

00:40:14   'cause I don't have, do either one of you have the beta

00:40:16   on anything where you can look at this and say,

00:40:18   I'm assuming what this means is no more accidentally hitting

00:40:20   that little thing that lets you record an audio message

00:40:22   'cause it's not in the message field anymore?

00:40:23   - I did have the beta before I gave away my 12 mini.

00:40:26   (laughing)

00:40:28   - Whoops, the depth's these.

00:40:30   How was that, by the way, running it on your carry phone?

00:40:32   - No, that's the thing, it wasn't on my carry phone.

00:40:34   - Oh, it was on, right, right, you said the 12 mini.

00:40:35   I'm sorry, yes, it's just us.

00:40:36   - So I actually asked on Twitter yesterday,

00:40:38   hey, how's the beta one on your carrier phones?

00:40:41   And it sounds like it's a moderately rough beta one

00:40:44   from what people are saying.

00:40:45   And people, it's funny, people frame this differently.

00:40:47   Some people say, it's pretty rough,

00:40:50   I only get half the battery life.

00:40:51   Other people say, it's not that bad,

00:40:53   I'm only getting half the battery life.

00:40:55   It depends on your perspective

00:40:56   on what you're willing to give up,

00:40:58   but it seems like there's a number of problems.

00:41:01   Things like, people say Apple Pay didn't work,

00:41:04   and half the battery life,

00:41:06   and apparently Microsoft Teams, the app doesn't work,

00:41:08   which I don't use, but it's good to know.

00:41:10   So it seems like, yeah, it's beta one.

00:41:13   And so you're probably better off still not putting it

00:41:16   on your carry phones, but to be honest,

00:41:18   I'm probably gonna jump in on beta two.

00:41:20   - Fair enough.

00:41:21   But yeah, and the other thing is,

00:41:22   I didn't have this happen often,

00:41:24   but it was absolutely infuriating

00:41:26   when you got a very long message in Messages,

00:41:29   and you had long press, or whatever the case may be,

00:41:32   in order to read it,

00:41:33   And so apparently that's not a problem anymore,

00:41:35   which is exciting.

00:41:36   - You know what we need?

00:41:37   We need desktop class iPhone apps.

00:41:39   And you know why?

00:41:40   So we can get the stupid attach a photo back

00:41:42   to not be buried under the message area thing, right?

00:41:44   So we got rid of the audio thing in the text field.

00:41:47   Now there's room for another icon there.

00:41:48   Wouldn't it be great if you could pick which icon

00:41:50   is the one that's not buried in the application thing?

00:41:53   And the one I would pick is attach picture

00:41:54   from your photo library, 'cause I do that all the time.

00:41:57   - Yeah, that's the one that I think people do the most,

00:41:58   right? - Right.

00:42:00   And I guess people just leave that little

00:42:02   app bar visible for people to know you can you can hold down on whatever button

00:42:05   you press and it will hide and show that app bar. I don't leave it visible because I

00:42:08   don't need to see it there all the time. I just want one thing to be accessible

00:42:11   and I don't want that one thing not to be record audio message. So I really wish

00:42:14   they would add a a one-slot customizable toolbar to the iPhone messages app.

00:42:20   Think about it Apple. You're just the idea guy. All right tell me about Stage

00:42:26   Manager please. One quick tip for this for people who don't know and don't like

00:42:29   the little side thing that shows all the little window groups on an angle in Stage Manager.

00:42:37   In iPadOS, apparently, James Thompson says you can turn off that sidebar if you long

00:42:41   press on the Stage Manager mode thing in Control Center.

00:42:45   So you don't have to see that all the time.

00:42:48   I think you can also hide it on the Mac too.

00:42:49   I'm not entirely sure.

00:42:50   I haven't spent a lot of time in venture, though I did install it.

00:42:53   So I just wanted to give that quick hint for people to think, "Oh, I'm not going to run

00:42:55   Stage Manager.

00:42:56   I don't want those icons clogging things up."

00:42:58   Also, I think on the iPad, if you make the app or one

00:43:02   of the app windows wide enough, I

00:43:03   think that it will also hide that thing.

00:43:05   I have not installed iPad OS 16 on any devices,

00:43:09   so I don't know for sure.

00:43:10   Have either one of you done that?

00:43:12   No, I did.

00:43:14   Had to restore that one too.

00:43:17   Some more experimentation there.

00:43:19   We'll talk more about Stage Manager as one or both of us

00:43:23   or all three of us get brave enough to put it on our iPad.

00:43:25   I'll probably put it on mine, because I do have an M1 iPad.

00:43:27   I'll put it on mine eventually, just maybe not beta one.

00:43:29   But before we dive too much more into that, in future weeks,

00:43:32   it's time to talk about the controversies surrounding

00:43:36   stage manager.

00:43:38   So let's start with the talk show live,

00:43:40   which they did in the Apple Developer Center thing,

00:43:44   John Gruber's live talk show, that had Craig Federighi

00:43:47   and Greg Joswiak as guests.

00:43:50   And here are just a couple of short quotes

00:43:53   about what Federighi said about stage manager,

00:43:56   to think about it.

00:43:58   And this is mostly in the context of the Mac, right?

00:44:00   It was on the last show I talked about how on the Mac

00:44:01   there's tons of different ways to manage Windows.

00:44:04   Apple has done lots of different things over the years,

00:44:06   and pretty much all of them are still there, right?

00:44:09   You've got Exposé, you've got the dock,

00:44:11   you've got minimization, you've got tiling windows,

00:44:14   you've got zooming, you've got plain old resizing,

00:44:16   you've got spaces, and now also you have stage manager.

00:44:20   And I probably forgot something in there.

00:44:21   All those things are all in there at the same time.

00:44:24   So Craig Federighi said, we're not telling you

00:44:27   that you're doing it wrong, implying

00:44:28   like if you use one of those features,

00:44:30   we're not saying, hey, you shouldn't

00:44:31   use minimizing to the dock.

00:44:32   You shouldn't use tiling.

00:44:34   You know, all that is fine.

00:44:35   We're not telling you whatever it

00:44:37   is that you're doing is wrong.

00:44:38   And then regarding why stage manager is a useful thing

00:44:42   to have on the Mac is another quote from Federighi.

00:44:44   There's a sense that the Mac experience is messy by default.

00:44:48   That gets into the janitor quote from Steve Jobs, right?

00:44:50   That if you don't do anything, like the default experience

00:44:53   on the Mac is eventually just windows appear everywhere and that feels messy to people.

00:44:58   He continues, "You're constantly either living in the mess or you're cleaning up after yourself

00:45:02   constantly as you go."

00:45:03   So that's like the impression that some people have about using the Mac, especially if you

00:45:07   used to a phone or an iPad where, you know, especially in the past, your options were

00:45:11   much more limited and you didn't have to deal with that visual clutter, right?

00:45:15   So that's why center stage, center stage, God, everyone's doing it.

00:45:20   That's why stage manager makes sense on the Mac.

00:45:24   I think we talked about it the last week,

00:45:25   but we'll put a link in the show notes

00:45:26   to the Purple Window widget from Mac OS X Developer Preview 3

00:45:31   in the year 2000.

00:45:34   The idea behind that was similar.

00:45:36   Yeah, the idea behind that was similar

00:45:39   is it was Steve Jobs, I should have put the link,

00:45:40   someone had a tweet where they clipped out the little thing

00:45:42   from the Steve Jobs segment.

00:45:43   We're like, Steve Jobs seemed to feel the same way,

00:45:46   that if you're using a Mac, sometimes you feel like a janitor

00:45:50   cleaning up all these windows.

00:45:51   Wouldn't it be nice if you could concentrate on one thing at a time?

00:45:53   The iPad was truly Steve Jobs' dream computer because it just did everything that he wanted

00:45:58   the Mac to do but it never quite could, right?

00:46:01   In terms of simplicity and elegance or whatever.

00:46:03   Anyway, in Mac OS X Developer Preview 3 there was another window widget that was purple.

00:46:09   You had the stop lights, you know, red, yellow, and green.

00:46:12   And then you had a purple widget.

00:46:13   They were colon candy colored at that point.

00:46:16   And if you hit the purple one, it went into what they called single window mode, where

00:46:19   all the other windows except for the one you were looking at would hide themselves, and

00:46:24   you'd just see that one window.

00:46:25   And if you switched to another one, the window you were working on would disappear and the

00:46:28   other window would come in.

00:46:30   You can see how that would be limiting, and you can see why maybe that didn't make it

00:46:32   to release, because that's so limiting.

00:46:35   One window at a time, and any time I switched to anything else, the window I was working

00:46:39   on, the whole point of having a big screen on a Mac is so you can do two things at once

00:46:42   and maybe drag things between windows and see them both at the same time.

00:46:45   So single window mode didn't quite make it.

00:46:47   But that idea of like, I wish the computer would just--

00:46:51   I wish the Mac would just show me what I'm working on now

00:46:53   and hide everything else, that is sort of-- you

00:46:56   can see that underlying stage manager.

00:46:59   And I think a lot of people talked about it.

00:47:02   I listened to all the podcasts talking about W3C,

00:47:03   including us, like how stage manager-- and we saw that,

00:47:06   like that looks like a feature that would be appropriate

00:47:08   for an iPad.

00:47:08   Because the iPad already does kind of do one thing at once

00:47:10   with limited amounts of multitasking.

00:47:12   And stage manager is a slightly fancier, slightly more

00:47:14   flexible way to do that.

00:47:16   Still trying to say you're concentrating on

00:47:19   one small set of things at once,

00:47:20   and then you switch to a different small set of things.

00:47:23   Right?

00:47:24   And the others, you know, you've got the stage manager thing

00:47:26   where they're along the side or whatever,

00:47:28   but the stuff you're working on goes off into its little home

00:47:31   and a new set of stuff comes out.

00:47:32   So it's like the purple window widget.

00:47:34   It's like single window mode from 2000,

00:47:36   but handful of window mode.

00:47:39   And it's different sets of handful of windows, right?

00:47:41   And so when a lot of people saw stage manager,

00:47:44   They thought, that looks like an iPad feature,

00:47:46   and they just happened to bring it to the Mac,

00:47:47   'cause they're trying to bring everything

00:47:48   to all their platforms at once.

00:47:50   Well, it turns out, some people in the know,

00:47:53   some people who worked on this back in, what, 2006-ish

00:47:56   or whatever, said that Stage Manager is actually

00:48:00   an incarnation of an idea called Shrinky Dink

00:48:03   from way back in the day.

00:48:05   This is, we'll put a link in the show notes

00:48:07   to something written by someone who's known as Cricket.

00:48:11   and they were working on the Shrinkydink feature

00:48:14   when Apple was transitioning to Intel back in 2006

00:48:17   and included a screenshot.

00:48:19   It looks a lot like Stage Manager,

00:48:21   right down to the little angled groups of windows

00:48:24   on the side, and it never quite shipped

00:48:26   'cause they didn't quite get it to the point

00:48:27   where they wanted to have it,

00:48:28   but it shows that good ideas don't necessarily die,

00:48:31   that even if they don't ship, maybe wait 10, 15 more years

00:48:35   and they might see the light of day.

00:48:36   So I highly recommend everyone reading that.

00:48:38   So basically what that shows is this is not a feature

00:48:40   that was made for the iPad and eventually brought to the Mac.

00:48:43   It was a feature that was made for the Mac,

00:48:44   didn't make it to the Mac, and got resurrected probably

00:48:47   because of its applicability to the iPad

00:48:49   and then also appeared on the Mac.

00:48:51   -I should note that this site or this blog post

00:48:55   seems to have been taken down,

00:48:56   but we will put a link in the show notes just in case.

00:48:58   -Let's see. -Yep.

00:48:59   -Oh, that's sad.

00:49:00   -Global security must have gotten to them.

00:49:02   -Right?

00:49:03   But one way or another, the screenshot that was there,

00:49:07   that Jon was nice enough to put in the show notes,

00:49:09   It looks really similar.

00:49:11   It looks really, really similar.

00:49:13   - Yeah, I'm assuming that got taken down

00:49:15   because this screenshot must have been an internal

00:49:17   Apple-only build that never saw the light of day.

00:49:19   Yeah. - I guess.

00:49:21   All right, so what's the controversy here?

00:49:22   - So the controversy is why is, I gotta scroll up,

00:49:26   why is Stage Manager, I almost said center stage,

00:49:28   why is Stage Manager only available on M1 iPads?

00:49:31   Last week we talked about it right after the keynote.

00:49:33   We're like, well, you know,

00:49:35   they did add a virtual memory swap support

00:49:39   and that might be required to have all these applications

00:49:41   in memory at the same time,

00:49:42   because if you're gonna be showing

00:49:44   four different applications on two different screens,

00:49:48   the iPads don't come with a lot of RAM,

00:49:51   and if you don't have enough RAM

00:49:53   to hold that amount of applications, what can you do?

00:49:55   It's not like you can just sort of put a checkerboard pattern

00:49:56   over some of the applications and say,

00:49:57   "Sorry, this application's not in memory

00:49:59   "and we don't have swaps, so if you tap on it,

00:50:03   "basically wait for it to relaunch

00:50:04   "and then we'll rip one of your other apps out of memory."

00:50:07   So we're like, well, maybe it's M1 only because M1,

00:50:11   you know, the M1 iPads have more RAM.

00:50:13   Lots of people seem to be angry that Stage Manager is M1 only

00:50:16   because like you two were just talking about,

00:50:18   what if I have like a, what I think is a fairly recent iPad

00:50:21   that I think is perfectly fine,

00:50:22   the performance of it's great,

00:50:23   like it's an iPad Pro maybe even,

00:50:25   and you're telling me I can't do Stage Manager?

00:50:28   - Well, but just for the record, just for the record,

00:50:31   I am not upset that my four-year-old iPad

00:50:33   cannot do Stage Manager.

00:50:34   - Yeah. - I'm only upset

00:50:35   because I'm cheap, not because I think it should.

00:50:37   - Yeah, the only reason I was, look,

00:50:38   you know I will jump at any chance to upgrade my hardware.

00:50:42   Any excuse, oh, I can't run, you know,

00:50:45   I can only run four windows instead of five.

00:50:47   Like, I have to upgrade my hardware.

00:50:48   The only reason I felt bad about doing

00:50:51   this particular upgrade is that I don't really end up

00:50:53   using my iPad very much outside of testing situations.

00:50:56   And that's, so it was frustrating.

00:50:58   Like, my kid and my wife both have M1 iPads.

00:51:02   Like, they, 'cause they both use their iPads

00:51:05   very heavily all the time.

00:51:07   So it made sense for them to upgrade when they were ready.

00:51:09   For me, it didn't make a lot of sense,

00:51:11   and I'm not excited about the upgrade.

00:51:13   So that's the only reason I even resisted this a little bit.

00:51:15   But to also be clear, I think it's totally reasonable

00:51:19   that my four-year-old iPad Pro

00:51:22   does not run this cutting-edge feature.

00:51:24   Because, and I think the reasons they give are valid,

00:51:27   because when you look at what Stage Manager has to do,

00:51:32   it clearly requires a huge jump in RAM

00:51:36   to keep way more apps running invisible

00:51:38   than were ever running invisible before.

00:51:40   That's why they had to add virtual memory swap,

00:51:42   that's why this is such a big deal.

00:51:43   And when you think about swapping,

00:51:45   like the old hardware, when they were designing the,

00:51:49   I believe I'm running an A12Z or X,

00:51:52   one of those, I think X, I don't know.

00:51:55   Anyway, running-- - That just sounded like me

00:51:56   at an eye appointment.

00:51:57   (laughing)

00:51:58   R-S-T-L-N-Y, maybe?

00:52:01   - You're on Wheel of Fortune.

00:52:02   - Yeah. - You're right, you're right.

00:52:04   - Yeah, but anyway, when they were designing my iPad

00:52:07   four years ago, this feature of having swap

00:52:12   probably was either not on their radar yet

00:52:14   or only in very early consideration.

00:52:16   And so to add something that dramatically changes

00:52:21   how the memory needs are,

00:52:24   how the storage infrastructure is accessed,

00:52:26   what kind of flash, what rating of storage controller

00:52:29   you can put in there, how much wear and tear

00:52:31   the flash is designed to take,

00:52:32   those are all significant hardware constraints

00:52:35   that the older hardware has.

00:52:36   And so it makes total sense that only hardware

00:52:39   that was designed to be a laptop, as in the M1,

00:52:43   that is equipped to do this,

00:52:45   because laptops always have swap.

00:52:47   So it made sense like that hardware was made to have swap,

00:52:49   it was designed to have that kind of bandwidth

00:52:52   and SSDs and everything like that,

00:52:53   and memory in the first place to avoid needing

00:52:56   a swap earlier.

00:52:57   Whereas the four-year-old hardware wasn't,

00:52:59   it's simple as that.

00:53:00   We'll see. We'll see if that's simple.

00:53:01   Let's go through the complaints.

00:53:03   So what I was getting at with Casey saying

00:53:04   was like the people's impression is that their computers,

00:53:08   their iPads don't feel slow, right?

00:53:10   So it's hard for them to understand

00:53:12   why they can't support this feature

00:53:13   'cause as old as it may be, it doesn't feel slow, right?

00:53:16   So this thing started,

00:53:18   people were complaining the internet early on.

00:53:20   Apple gave a statement to Renee Ritchie that said,

00:53:22   quoting from a portion of it,

00:53:24   delivering this experience, meaning center, stage manager.

00:53:28   - Stage manager, hi.

00:53:30   Delivering this experience with the immediacy users expect from iPads touch for us experience requires large internal memory incredibly fast storage and flexible external

00:53:37   Display, I'll all of which are delivered by I pass with M1 chips, okay

00:53:41   Later Federighi did an interview with TechCrunch

00:53:44   We said building the M1 was critical as well from the start the iPad is always maintained extremely high standard for responsiveness and interactivity

00:53:50   That directness of interaction and that every app can respond to every touch and insane

00:53:54   Instantaneously as if you were touching the real thing underneath the screen

00:53:58   And I think it's hard sometimes for people to appreciate the technical constraints involved

00:54:01   in achieving that.

00:54:02   This gets to what I was saying before of like, if you don't have anywhere for that, you know,

00:54:07   anywhere else to put that memory, and there's not enough memory to have all those apps in

00:54:10   memory at the same time, how is it going to be responding instantly to your touch if you

00:54:13   basically need to be relaunching the app behind the scenes, right?

00:54:16   That's why people think, oh, a swap is necessary, right?

00:54:18   So Federico continues, as you add multiple apps into play and large amounts of screen

00:54:21   real estate, you have to make sure that any of those apps can respond instantly to your

00:54:26   touch in a way that you don't have to have the expectation with a desktop app.

00:54:29   I would argue you should have the same expectation with a desktop app as well.

00:54:34   Indirect manipulation gives you some slack there so it's a different set of constraints.

00:54:37   Yeah, I'm not sure it's that different.

00:54:41   And then Stephen Hackett who was commenting on this post says, "Federie also mentions

00:54:44   that older iPads don't have the horsepower to push external displays in the way Apple

00:54:48   wants."

00:54:49   Right?

00:54:50   So that's Apple's side of the story.

00:54:52   Needs to be responsive, takes lots of RAM, external displays or whatever.

00:54:54   So here's the pushback from that community.

00:54:56   So first, people were pushing back against the M1

00:54:59   requirement, saying, well, look, the Apple Silicon DTK

00:55:03   was a Mac Mini with an A12Z in it.

00:55:05   And an A12Z is not an M1.

00:55:07   And the A12Z ran Mac OS, which can have more than four

00:55:10   windows on the screen.

00:55:11   I'm not sure if you're aware.

00:55:12   And I put more than four windows on the screen of the DTK,

00:55:16   and it was fine.

00:55:17   So it doesn't require an M1, it seems like.

00:55:20   But the DTK had 16 gigs of RAM.

00:55:24   And that's-- so it wasn't an A12Z with 4 gigs of RAM.

00:55:27   It had 16 gigs of RAM.

00:55:28   I don't actually know if the DDK ran swap,

00:55:30   and obviously I don't have mine anymore to check.

00:55:32   But so there's that consideration, right?

00:55:34   And then from-- this bit is from Apple's iPad OS 16 preview

00:55:40   page.

00:55:41   It talks about virtual memory swap.

00:55:42   And it says, iPad storage can be used

00:55:44   to expand the available memory for all apps

00:55:46   to deliver up to 16 gigabytes of memory

00:55:48   for the most demanding apps.

00:55:49   And then it has a little footnote, footnote number 19.

00:55:52   And if you scroll down the page and see

00:55:54   what is footnote number 19, it says,

00:55:56   regarding virtual memory swap,

00:55:58   that it is available on iPad Air fifth generation

00:56:01   with a minimum of 256 gigabytes storage.

00:56:04   And then it lists a bunch of other iPads it works on.

00:56:06   So the iPad Air fifth generation

00:56:09   also comes in a 64 gig storage model.

00:56:12   And they're saying, if you get an iPad Air fifth generation--

00:56:15   - Wait, this is the current model?

00:56:17   - Yeah, with 64 gigs of storage, it won't use swap.

00:56:20   Presumably because it doesn't wanna hog any more

00:56:23   of the storage space with swap,

00:56:24   'cause swap files can get big, right?

00:56:26   But the iPad Air fifth generation runs Stage Manager.

00:56:31   - And it has an M1, yeah.

00:56:33   - Yeah, as Steve Stratton Smith said,

00:56:34   Stage Manager works on the iPad Air at all storage sizes,

00:56:38   but swap only works on 256 gig things.

00:56:40   So obviously swap is not,

00:56:42   according to Apple's own specifications,

00:56:44   swap is not technically required for a Stage Manager,

00:56:47   'cause the iPad Air can apparently run it without swap.

00:56:50   So that's a little bit confusing.

00:56:51   Then you look, okay, but what about the iPad Air?

00:56:53   So it's got an M1, right?

00:56:55   It's also got eight gigs of RAM,

00:56:56   so maybe that's what it is.

00:56:57   Maybe, okay, well, even without swap,

00:57:00   if you have eight gigs of RAM,

00:57:01   they feel like Sage Manager will be able to fit in there.

00:57:04   But the iPad Pro 3rd Gen that I think Casey has

00:57:08   also has eight gigs of RAM,

00:57:09   and in fact, they made a 16 gig RAM version of that,

00:57:11   but that one can't run center stage.

00:57:14   So if it's not swap--

00:57:16   - It's a stage manager, you just did it again.

00:57:19   - Okay, it's impossible.

00:57:20   It's absolutely impossible. - It's impossible.

00:57:20   - It can't be done.

00:57:21   It can't be done.

00:57:22   Rename your features, Apple.

00:57:24   - We'll just call it Shrinky Dink.

00:57:25   - Yeah.

00:57:26   - Well, but hold on though, but my iPad Pro,

00:57:29   and I think I might be jumping ahead here,

00:57:30   it has really crummy external display support

00:57:33   because I have a USB-C port, not a Thunderbolt port.

00:57:36   - But the iPad Air also, the iPad Air with M1

00:57:40   also only has USB-C, not Thunderbolt.

00:57:43   - Yeah, so anyway, swap is not required

00:57:47   because Apple's own specs say that you can run this without,

00:57:50   you can run Stage Manager on swap, right?

00:57:55   And it's not RAM because one of the iPads

00:57:58   that can run Stage Manager has the same amount of RAM

00:58:01   as iPads that can't, right?

00:58:03   And so maybe it's external display report.

00:58:06   So one other thing that Craig Federighi said

00:58:08   is that Stage Manager is quote,

00:58:10   "A total experience that involves

00:58:11   "external display connectivity."

00:58:13   You can imagine like being able to drive

00:58:16   a big external display and having sort of the, you know,

00:58:19   The video guts or GPU guts or hardware to do that

00:58:23   or whatever might be a feature that only exists on the M1s

00:58:26   because the M1s are designed to run

00:58:28   at least one external display.

00:58:30   And maybe like an A12Z wasn't, right?

00:58:33   Or maybe that brings over the RAM limit, right?

00:58:36   But that is very different from the idea that like,

00:58:40   look, you can only run this on the M1

00:58:41   for a bunch of really good reasons.

00:58:42   And it seems more like to get every single feature

00:58:46   that's part of stage manager probably requires an M1.

00:58:50   But people might be saying,

00:58:51   well, I don't care about external display.

00:58:52   I don't even have an external display connected to my iPad.

00:58:54   I just want to sit on the couch with my iPad

00:58:56   and be able to use stage manager.

00:58:58   And so we'll see what happens in this controversy.

00:59:01   Maybe Apple will just stick to its guns and say,

00:59:04   we'd rather just give you

00:59:05   the whole stage manager experience.

00:59:07   And even though you don't have an external display,

00:59:08   tough luck or whatever,

00:59:09   it could be that there are other things we don't know about

00:59:11   because the M1 is not just an A14X with like one,

00:59:14   you know, it's got a bunch of stuff that was added to it,

00:59:17   basically so it could be a Mac chip.

00:59:19   And maybe there's parts of that that have to do with

00:59:22   variable page size, for example,

00:59:23   is another thing the M1 has that a lot of other,

00:59:26   the other A series chips don't,

00:59:27   because it's an expectation of Mac OS.

00:59:30   You know, there's lots of other things

00:59:31   that the M1 could have that these things don't,

00:59:32   but so far Apple hasn't cited them specifically.

00:59:35   So it's still a little bit of a mystery.

00:59:37   Maybe they just wanna have a unified experience.

00:59:40   I'm not sure why people are raring

00:59:42   to have stage managers so much,

00:59:43   Maybe they just feel like, you know,

00:59:46   that my iPad is newish and never feels slow to me.

00:59:49   And what stage manager is doing doesn't seem

00:59:52   like it's asking the iPad to do much.

00:59:54   Like, oh, you mean I can see four different apps

00:59:56   on the screen at the same time?

00:59:57   Well, I can almost do that with like, you know,

00:59:59   split screen and slide over.

01:00:01   Like, what's the big deal?

01:00:02   Like, are you telling me my amazingly powerful iPad

01:00:05   can't handle a couple of windows on an angle

01:00:07   when this shrinky dink thing in the year 2006

01:00:11   was able to do it on a machine

01:00:13   with like 1/15th the power of like an A12Z iPad, right?

01:00:18   'Cause that's what you have to remember.

01:00:19   Like Mac OS has been having millions of windows

01:00:22   on the screen and expose and all this stuff for years

01:00:24   with less RAM than an iPad, with slower CPUs than an iPad,

01:00:26   and granted it had swap during that time,

01:00:28   but like what's the hang up?

01:00:30   - And it swapped like crazy.

01:00:31   I mean, you know, people forget nowadays,

01:00:35   you might forget the experience of using a desktop computer

01:00:38   in the early 2000s, it was a lot of swapping

01:00:41   onto hard drives.

01:00:42   But no, I mean, it's not the--

01:00:45   I'm sure that the older iPad hardware has no problem

01:00:48   compositing the windows on the screen.

01:00:50   It's keeping all the apps in memory.

01:00:52   That's the challenge, because what the apps are doing

01:00:54   is very, very different.

01:00:56   But Macs had less RAM than that back then.

01:00:58   Yeah, and apps used less RAM back then.

01:01:00   Now everything's these crazy RAM bloat hogs.

01:01:03   And everything-- you have the higher resolution screens now.

01:01:05   All the image assets are bigger.

01:01:06   All the video RAM needs are bigger.

01:01:08   You have higher data assets being stored,

01:01:10   images loading and everything,

01:01:11   all that stuff is just bigger these days.

01:01:13   And apps take up hundreds of megs of RAM routinely now,

01:01:18   whereas back then that was significantly less common.

01:01:21   So that's the big difference is like,

01:01:23   yes, the old computers that did this,

01:01:25   yeah, they could do it just fine,

01:01:26   they can composite the windows on screen.

01:01:28   Today, the GPUs have no problem throwing those windows

01:01:31   around on screen, but it's the massive RAM footprint

01:01:35   of these apps, that's the limiting factor I bet.

01:01:38   I mean, the apps that are on iPad, like I said,

01:01:41   are apps that have grown up in an environment

01:01:43   where a swap is not available.

01:01:44   So they are actually pretty stingy with RAM.

01:01:46   Right, when you have one of them.

01:01:48   But you can already get, I think,

01:01:50   at least two plus one slide overs.

01:01:54   Like-- Center stage.

01:01:56   Stage Manager is limited to four apps, right?

01:01:59   Or four windows?

01:02:00   So it's not unlimited.

01:02:02   It's not like it's without bound.

01:02:04   There is a limitation on it.

01:02:05   And I think even without Stage Manager,

01:02:07   you can get almost that many different apps visible

01:02:09   on an iPad screen at the same time now.

01:02:11   - But it's eight if you plug in an external monitor.

01:02:13   - Right, well that's what gets to the monitor thing.

01:02:14   It's like, okay, but what if I don't,

01:02:16   what if I don't have an external monitor?

01:02:17   Let me use the stage manager,

01:02:18   and I promise I wanna connect to monitor,

01:02:20   and if I do, it will be disabled.

01:02:21   But it could be that Apple says,

01:02:22   well we don't wanna, we just wanna give

01:02:23   the whole experience, we don't wanna have the special mode

01:02:25   where it's like, well if you buy this iPad,

01:02:27   you can get stage manager, but then as soon as you plug in

01:02:29   an external display, you can't have it anymore,

01:02:30   or something like that.

01:02:31   - Well, and also, I mean, I think a big part of the reason

01:02:35   is these technical realities for sure.

01:02:38   I think a smaller part of the reason

01:02:40   is market segmentation.

01:02:41   Apple wants the iPad Pro to be pushed higher market,

01:02:45   and they want people to pay for Pro features.

01:02:48   You know, there's a lot of features where,

01:02:49   like if you look at the iPhone hardware thread history,

01:02:52   you know, sometimes some new feature to iOS would come out,

01:02:55   maybe it's a new camera feature, whatever,

01:02:57   where the older hardware might be capable of it,

01:03:00   but Apple restricts it to the new hardware

01:03:02   for market segmentation,

01:03:03   and to give people a reason to upgrade.

01:03:05   They do a pretty good job of making stuff available

01:03:08   to old hardware when possible, most of the time,

01:03:11   but not all of the time.

01:03:13   And sometimes they just do it for that reason

01:03:15   and that's their prerogative.

01:03:18   When you bought your iPad in 2018,

01:03:21   you didn't know about this feature

01:03:23   and you didn't buy this feature.

01:03:25   I don't fault them too much for restricting this

01:03:28   to only the newest stuff when there is some,

01:03:32   if not much, hardware justification for doing it,

01:03:35   in addition to this also pretty substantial

01:03:37   segmentation reason.

01:03:39   - I mean, the thing, that's the underlying thing in this,

01:03:41   is that people are angry because they feel like Apple

01:03:43   is saying like, there's no real reason for you to do this,

01:03:45   you're just doing this to make me buy another iPad,

01:03:47   which is the conspiracy theory that doesn't feel good, right?

01:03:50   But in many cases, the boring explanation of basically,

01:03:55   from Apple saying, we implemented this,

01:03:58   we tried it on the iPad that you're complaining

01:04:00   can't do this, and the experience wasn't good.

01:04:04   And you could say, oh, I don't believe you, or whatever.

01:04:07   But that's entirely plausible, because every time anyone

01:04:10   implements anything, the experience starts off

01:04:11   as not being good.

01:04:12   And it's a question of, how much time

01:04:14   does Apple want to spend optimizing

01:04:16   Stage Manager to make sure it works on A12Z or whatever?

01:04:19   Like at a certain point, you could say,

01:04:21   like, do we have to spend the time to say,

01:04:23   we know these can't handle external displays,

01:04:25   but these can.

01:04:26   Or it runs fine on the M1s, but it's not running.

01:04:29   It feels like kind of stuttery and janky on the A12Z iPads.

01:04:34   So how much time do you want to spend optimizing it

01:04:37   to get it to work on the A12Z iPads,

01:04:39   even though we know going forward,

01:04:40   everything's gonna be as fast as the M1 or better, right?

01:04:42   Those are the type of decisions that,

01:04:44   you can't really come out and explain that

01:04:46   and say basically we made a business decision

01:04:48   not to spend our time optimizing this so it works well,

01:04:50   but you have to start from the premise

01:04:52   that you believe them when they say we tried it

01:04:54   and it wasn't that great on these older iPads.

01:04:57   Now, Apple is responsive to customer complaints,

01:04:59   and this is beta one, so it could be

01:05:01   that they hear people complaining

01:05:03   and what Apple decides to do is,

01:05:04   okay, let's spend some time seeing

01:05:06   if we can get this to work on non-M1 iPads, right?

01:05:09   And so they put some engineering resources into that,

01:05:11   maybe they put it on those and they say,

01:05:13   well, you can't use external displays

01:05:14   'cause they just don't have the extra RAM capacity

01:05:18   to push all those extra pixels or whatever,

01:05:20   but at least you can do it locally, right?

01:05:22   But that would be Apple choosing to spend the effort

01:05:24   to address that customer feedback.

01:05:27   And yeah, when you bought your iPad,

01:05:29   you didn't know center stage would appear,

01:05:30   but Apple customers in particular have an expectation

01:05:34   that when they buy hardware, it will continue to get updates

01:05:37   after a certain period of time.

01:05:38   And it's like, yeah, but if it's old and slow,

01:05:40   and I feel like it's out of date,

01:05:41   then I can't get the newest stuff.

01:05:42   But people look at this and they feel like

01:05:44   their iPad Pro from 2018, quote unquote,

01:05:47   should be able to do this.

01:05:49   And I have no doubt that Apple could make it work

01:05:51   on those iPads, it just may be way more difficult

01:05:54   than they think it was worth the effort to do.

01:05:56   'cause again, something is missing from the A12Z

01:05:58   that's in the M1 or something like that

01:06:00   that we don't know about, there's some esoteric detail.

01:06:02   The performance was a little hitchy,

01:06:04   the SSD controller is a little bit slower,

01:06:06   like it's on the ragged edge of what's possible

01:06:08   because of some things we don't understand.

01:06:10   So we'll see what develops in this with the next show.

01:06:13   I mean, the people who are mad about it,

01:06:14   they'll probably get over it, and honestly,

01:06:17   maybe they'll use a stage manager and be like,

01:06:19   "Oh, I don't even like it anyway, so who cares?"

01:06:21   But if they remain Apple customers,

01:06:23   presumably eventually they'll buy another iPad

01:06:25   and I'll support it so this will take care of itself with time.

01:06:29   I don't know, I really think it's a combination of everything that you guys had said.

01:06:33   I think it's predominantly some legitimate problems that, or not problems, but constraints

01:06:41   that this old hardware has.

01:06:43   And I suspect that in a lot of cases, you know, maybe my iPad would work with it but

01:06:50   you couldn't use an external display or you were only limited to six apps open at once

01:06:54   or whatever the case may be.

01:06:56   And I certainly don't think Apple marketing,

01:06:58   whether or not the technical side of Apple,

01:07:00   I don't think Apple marketing has any interest in saying,

01:07:04   "Well, stage manager works on iPads as long as,

01:07:07   and if, and, and, well, maybe asterisk dagger, double deck."

01:07:10   Like, that's just not tenable.

01:07:13   It's just not, not for a company like the size of Apple.

01:07:16   And so I really would guess that it's a combination

01:07:21   of there are legitimate constraints

01:07:23   on older pieces of hardware, but they don't want to muddy the waters and say, "Well, if

01:07:28   you have a 2018, you can do this. And if you have a 2019, you can also do this. You have

01:07:33   a 2020, you can also do this." Like, if that were the case, we'd be raking them over the

01:07:36   coals for just not making it consistent across everything, maybe. But I don't think, for

01:07:42   all the things, for all the gross and slimy things Apple can, has, and will do, I don't

01:07:50   think this is on that list for me.

01:07:51   And I know that makes us just another show for Apple,

01:07:53   blah, blah, blah, but I really honestly,

01:07:55   I think anyone who's listened to the show

01:07:57   for more than four minutes knows that we will call out Apple

01:08:00   when we see them doing something gross.

01:08:02   I really don't think this is one of those times.

01:08:05   - And like I said, it feels like it's plausible

01:08:07   that they could hear this feedback and say,

01:08:08   all right, we're gonna spend some extra resources

01:08:11   during this beta cycle to get it to work

01:08:13   in a limited fashion on lesser iPads.

01:08:14   'Cause I think it's totally technically plausible,

01:08:16   it's just a question of how much time

01:08:17   do you wanna spend doing that?

01:08:18   And their original judgment was,

01:08:19   let's not waste any time, let's just concentrate

01:08:21   on making good on the M1, they can reconsider that opinion

01:08:24   between now and the many months,

01:08:26   or it could be a point update, 16.1, 16.2,

01:08:29   like they've done a lot of big things in point updates,

01:08:30   so I wouldn't totally rule it out

01:08:32   that Apple won't do some limited form of this in the future

01:08:35   if the feedback continues to be a thing.

01:08:37   It could just be like, oh, this has to be something

01:08:39   people are angry about after WWDC,

01:08:42   and this will fade, but we'll see how it goes.

01:08:44   Oh, and one more final tidbit,

01:08:46   this is from an anonymous source.

01:08:47   Apparently the virtual memory swap feature on iPadOS

01:08:52   is something the engineering team is very proud of.

01:08:55   In particular, one of the neat things they did

01:08:57   is that none of the system demons

01:08:59   or any part of the OS are ever swapped out.

01:09:02   Only apps go to swap,

01:09:03   which obviously is not the way it works on macOS.

01:09:07   And macOS, you know, any piece of memory

01:09:09   could potentially be swapped out.

01:09:11   There is a concept in macOS,

01:09:13   and I think most versions of Unix or whatever,

01:09:15   where you can have a page of memory

01:09:17   that is quote unquote wired, which basically means

01:09:20   this page, this piece of memory, is not allowed

01:09:23   to ever be swapped out.

01:09:25   In particular, lots of parts of the kernel use wired memory

01:09:28   because as you can imagine, if the part of the kernel

01:09:30   that deals with virtual memory swap gets swapped out,

01:09:34   you've got a real problem on your hands.

01:09:36   Most parts of the kernel you probably don't want

01:09:38   to swap out.

01:09:39   So I do wonder how they implemented this.

01:09:41   I don't think they're wiring every single page

01:09:42   for every app that's not, for every app that's part

01:09:45   of the OS that's not a regular app.

01:09:47   So they probably did something special for this.

01:09:48   But anyway, it just goes to show the lengths they're doing

01:09:50   to try to still sort of eke out the,

01:09:54   as Federi was saying, the sort of the responsiveness

01:09:56   that people expect from iPads, right?

01:09:59   Where, you know, I don't entirely buy that indirect,

01:10:03   quote unquote, indirect manipulation,

01:10:04   it still grinds my gears when they say that,

01:10:06   but I don't know what they mean.

01:10:07   Indirect manipulation with a cursor.

01:10:10   You can put up a beach ball cursor,

01:10:11   and we don't love that, but that's part of the experience

01:10:13   when something like that happens.

01:10:14   but there is no equivalent of that with touch, right?

01:10:18   If you touch something and it doesn't react to your touch,

01:10:20   it feels broken immediately.

01:10:22   It's not an expected part of the iPad experience

01:10:25   to put your finger on the screen and try to do something,

01:10:27   whether you're dragging or tapping or whatever,

01:10:29   and nothing moves, you think your iPad is broken, right?

01:10:33   That is not, that's not an expectation, right?

01:10:36   So to, you know, and not having swap was one way to do that

01:10:39   because hey, swap takes a big variable out of the equation.

01:10:43   You know what your memory access times are,

01:10:44   You know how much RAM you have,

01:10:45   you have this thing going around killing applications

01:10:48   if they use too much memory, so you stay within the memory.

01:10:50   It's much more predictable.

01:10:52   Once you involve swap this,

01:10:54   there's this huge unpredictable performance cliff

01:10:56   that you may fall off of.

01:10:57   So to try to hold on to the essential iPad desk

01:11:01   to say, well, let's keep,

01:11:02   let's not ever let any part of the system be swapped out.

01:11:06   So that is everything that runs presumably like the dock,

01:11:08   the Windows server,

01:11:10   any OS processes that are in the background, the camera,

01:11:13   Like all the demons that run all the various things,

01:11:16   talking to iCloud, like who knows?

01:11:17   Any part of the OS or any part of those demons,

01:11:20   they do not get swapped.

01:11:21   What does get swapped is one of your umpteen apps

01:11:24   that you're running, right?

01:11:25   Or one of your four apps that's being shown

01:11:27   in Stage Manager.

01:11:29   God, every time I say that, I have to pause that.

01:11:31   (laughing)

01:11:32   So that's neat, I'd love to know more technical details

01:11:35   on that, if anyone knows, feel free to tell us.

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01:13:33   (upbeat music)

01:13:36   - All right, so I hear some really, really positive things

01:13:40   about system preference, system settings in Ventura.

01:13:43   So can you tell me all the good news about that, please?

01:13:46   - Yeah, speaking of controversies that happen after

01:13:48   you've seen people get mad about this is,

01:13:52   for a different group of people who are mad about this,

01:13:53   but a lot of people are mad about it,

01:13:55   and I would put myself kind of in that category.

01:13:57   So I think we complained about--

01:13:58   - I mean, it looks crappy.

01:13:59   - I think we talked about it in the last show,

01:14:01   but at the time we were talking about it in the last show,

01:14:02   we hadn't seen, because it hadn't been released yet,

01:14:05   the live talk show with Federighi and Jaws.

01:14:08   Did you see that live, Marco?

01:14:10   - I did, yeah, it was great, actually.

01:14:12   And frankly, I think it was a very, very good live talk show.

01:14:15   You know, I've been to all of them.

01:14:17   I really, really enjoyed all of them.

01:14:19   But this was very much up there as one of the best ones

01:14:22   because sometimes, depending on what's announced

01:14:27   and who he has up there and what kind of people,

01:14:32   what their moods are, maybe,

01:14:33   Certain years, you get more little tidbits out

01:14:36   of the Apple guests than other years.

01:14:39   This was one of the good years, where you really

01:14:41   got a lot out of them.

01:14:42   And there was a lot of explanation for certain things

01:14:45   that clarified certain things.

01:14:47   So it was actually-- I really enjoyed this one.

01:14:49   It was very good.

01:14:49   Yeah.

01:14:50   So we didn't have all these-- I didn't

01:14:51   have those explanations.

01:14:52   I had heard about them secondhand,

01:14:54   but of course, I didn't get to hear them actually say it.

01:14:55   So we'll put a link in the show notes.

01:14:57   It's a YouTube video.

01:14:58   You can watch the whole thing.

01:15:00   So regarding system settings, which

01:15:02   we complained about a little bit on the last show.

01:15:04   And this is system settings on the Mac,

01:15:06   previously called system preferences.

01:15:08   People have been complaining about the interface

01:15:09   because it has been totally redone

01:15:11   to look a little bit more like settings on iPad OS and iOS.

01:15:16   And more to the point, it looks nothing like it used to.

01:15:20   You know, any preference pane,

01:15:22   if you go into system preferences on your Mac right now,

01:15:24   that's not running Ventura,

01:15:26   none of those preference panes look like that anymore at all.

01:15:30   like no pixel is shared whatsoever.

01:15:32   And the app itself doesn't look like it used to, right?

01:15:34   And people have been complaining about it.

01:15:35   So Craig Fegury starting at,

01:15:38   we'll put a timestamp link at 43 minutes and 11 seconds

01:15:40   gives an explanation of why they decided

01:15:44   to overhaul system preferences

01:15:46   and why it looks like it does.

01:15:49   And aside from the obvious reasons,

01:15:50   which doesn't really go into it,

01:15:51   it's like, well, you know,

01:15:52   there's consistency across the platforms.

01:15:53   People know what settings look like on their phone.

01:15:55   They know what it looks like on their iPad.

01:15:56   Why does it look so weird on the Mac?

01:15:58   Mostly for historical reasons, right?

01:16:00   Wouldn't it be great if they all kind of look the same?

01:16:02   And with SwiftUI, you can actually

01:16:04   use the same code for them, yada, yada,

01:16:05   like platform unification.

01:16:06   But that's not what he says in this section here.

01:16:09   What he mostly talks about is, let's think

01:16:11   about system preferences and why it looks the way it did.

01:16:15   And I'll be the first to tell you,

01:16:16   the system preferences has never been super great.

01:16:19   Like, if you wander through system preferences

01:16:21   on your pre-venture or Mac right now,

01:16:23   you'll see some preference panes that look pretty good.

01:16:26   Some of them don't look that good.

01:16:27   A lot of them look very different from each other.

01:16:30   The organization on some of them is not great.

01:16:33   It's kind of like a tour of old controls,

01:16:36   like oh, they did a custom control for this.

01:16:37   So I can date them by looking at them

01:16:39   and say I remember when they did that.

01:16:40   That used to look new in 2008, but now it doesn't anymore.

01:16:44   And this one was more recent,

01:16:45   and this one uses a web view behind the scenes,

01:16:47   and it looks kind of janky for different reasons, right?

01:16:49   Not like system preferences was awesome.

01:16:51   But that's not even what Craig says about them.

01:16:53   What he says mostly is that it was made in a world

01:16:56   where the expectation was that you could put

01:16:59   your settings in a single window.

01:17:01   System Preferences is a small window,

01:17:04   and it does grow, but it mostly just grows vertically,

01:17:06   I think, anyway, it doesn't grow that much.

01:17:08   But the main point is there's no scrolling, right?

01:17:11   It hearkens all the way back to the control panel

01:17:13   on the original Mac, which if you went to

01:17:15   Apple menu control panel on the original Mac,

01:17:17   it brought up a single window in which you had

01:17:20   every single control that was part of the control panel,

01:17:23   right, in just that one window, right?

01:17:25   It wasn't until later they started branching out

01:17:27   into different sub settings, one for your mouse,

01:17:29   for displays or whatever, the original Mac was very simple.

01:17:32   But system preferences in Mac OS X and Mac OS

01:17:36   and all that stuff has always just been a single window.

01:17:38   There's no scrolling.

01:17:39   If you have more settings that can fit on a single window,

01:17:42   you can add tabs.

01:17:44   Some of the preference panes have a sidebar,

01:17:46   like the relatively new security and privacy one

01:17:48   has a sidebar where you can scroll

01:17:50   through a bunch of sub items and you click a sub item

01:17:52   and it changes what's in the detail view.

01:17:54   But it's not, if I re-describe them as sort of like

01:17:58   hand created like bento boxes.

01:18:01   If you've seen one of those bento box lunches

01:18:02   like a Japanese lunch box

01:18:04   where you have all the little compartments,

01:18:05   carefully arranged food that just barely fits

01:18:07   in this little box and it's very cute.

01:18:09   Lots of, I would say some of the best system preferences,

01:18:12   preference panes have been carefully hand laid out

01:18:16   to jam in all the stuff that need to fit in there.

01:18:18   And some of them, it just doesn't fit.

01:18:20   And there's like seven tabs and within each tabs,

01:18:23   there's sub-scrolling panes or whatever.

01:18:24   But the whole point is the window itself doesn't scroll.

01:18:27   There's just sub-regions and sub-regions.

01:18:30   And it was overwhelmed, right?

01:18:32   And it shows that the system purpose and interface doesn't

01:18:35   really scale.

01:18:36   And I feel this pain, because I'm

01:18:38   going to talk about this in a little bit.

01:18:40   But my dinky little app, the road

01:18:41   I went down with my dinky little app is, oh, I love settings.

01:18:44   I'll keep adding settings or whatever.

01:18:45   But one of the features of my app

01:18:47   is that it lets you change how it

01:18:50   appears on each attached screen.

01:18:51   And since I didn't have a secondary display readily

01:18:53   available using Sidecar with my iPad--

01:18:56   and the iPad's not that big.

01:18:57   And so I would bring up my preference window

01:19:00   while using Sidecar, and the preference window

01:19:02   would fill the iPad screen from top to bottom.

01:19:05   It's like, I can't add any more preferences,

01:19:08   because my preference window, like system preferences,

01:19:09   doesn't scroll.

01:19:11   If I add one more checkbox,

01:19:13   now my window doesn't fit on the screen,

01:19:14   and one of the controls you wanna get at is too big.

01:19:17   And so that's kind of the situation system preferences in.

01:19:19   It was like, well, we don't have any more room

01:19:22   for more controls on this preference pane.

01:19:24   It should go here, it's part of like displays or whatever,

01:19:27   but I can't make it any bigger.

01:19:28   So let's add a sub-screen, let's add a tab or whatever.

01:19:31   And so it doesn't really scale.

01:19:33   It doesn't support scrolling.

01:19:35   And every one of these things is a beautiful,

01:19:37   hand-created little jeweled box or whatever, right?

01:19:41   So that was Federighi's explanation of like,

01:19:43   that's why we need an interface

01:19:45   that's more like it is on the iPhone on the iPad,

01:19:48   because in those environments and in the modern world,

01:19:51   we have an expectation that it's okay

01:19:52   for a thing to scroll vertically.

01:19:54   Certainly settings on your phone scrolls vertically.

01:19:57   That's all it does is scroll vertically.

01:19:58   In fact, there's a search thing at the top of them

01:19:59   because it scrolls vertically so far

01:20:02   that you can never find anything, right?

01:20:03   And iPad OS has the sidebar that also scrolls

01:20:06   and so on and so forth.

01:20:07   And so that was the explanation, right?

01:20:10   That explanation makes some sense to me.

01:20:13   As I think I've hinted at in describing this,

01:20:16   the beautiful hand curated bento box of controls,

01:20:21   it's kind of nice sometimes actually.

01:20:22   It means somebody sweated over where every single little thing

01:20:24   is in that interface.

01:20:27   Like one of the screenshots we got up in our notes

01:20:29   here shows the dock preference pane next to its incarnation

01:20:32   in Ventura.

01:20:34   One of the things that stands out to me is that the thing

01:20:37   where you pick the position on screen of your dock--

01:20:40   your choices are left side of the screen, right side

01:20:42   of the screen, or the bottom--

01:20:43   it's done as three widely separated radio buttons.

01:20:46   The left one is on the left, the bottom one is in the middle,

01:20:49   and the right one is on the right.

01:20:51   You could do that as a pop-up menu.

01:20:53   In fact, there are other pop-up menus in this form.

01:20:54   You could have a pop-up menu

01:20:55   where you pick left, bottom, or right.

01:20:57   But seeing all three options vaguely arranged geometrically

01:21:01   like they are on your screen is, I think,

01:21:04   a little bit nicer.

01:21:05   It's kind of like how in my,

01:21:07   in the app that I'll keep referring to for reasons

01:21:09   that will come slightly more clear later,

01:21:11   in my dinky little app Switch Glass,

01:21:12   you can put it on all different edges of the screen.

01:21:15   And to show that, instead of just having a pop-up menu

01:21:19   where you pick north, northeast, east, southeast,

01:21:22   like you can pick all the cardinal directions.

01:21:24   Instead of having those options in a pop-up menu,

01:21:25   which I can do, I put a little picture of the screen

01:21:29   and then I put little radio buttons all around the screen

01:21:31   at all the different cardinal directions.

01:21:33   'Cause it's just easier graphically to be able

01:21:35   to just click where on the screen you want it.

01:21:36   Oh, I see that's supposed to be my screen

01:21:38   'cause I see my desktop picture.

01:21:39   Oh, I want it in the middle of the right side.

01:21:41   So I just click the little thing

01:21:41   that's in the middle of the right side.

01:21:43   I don't have to go to a pop-up menu,

01:21:44   I don't have to read text.

01:21:46   You just click where you want it to be.

01:21:48   carefully laying out all of the controls and the text

01:21:52   to just barely fit in this window and to be nice.

01:21:54   There's an art to that.

01:21:56   And I think it makes, you know, when done well,

01:22:00   it is part of what makes Mac apps great.

01:22:02   When done poorly, it looks terrible.

01:22:04   And everyone hates it.

01:22:05   And when you don't have room for any more controls,

01:22:08   then you add sub-paints and it gets frustrating, right?

01:22:10   So there's a little bit of something being lost there.

01:22:11   But the main complaint that I have,

01:22:14   and other people have different complaints,

01:22:15   but the main complaint that I have

01:22:17   about the new system settings app, aside from the name,

01:22:19   which we'll get to in a little bit,

01:22:21   is not so much that they've decided

01:22:22   to overhaul this interface, and not so much that, like,

01:22:26   you know, settings on the phone is crappy or whatever,

01:22:29   but that this style of interface,

01:22:31   with little switches and stuff that you see on your phone,

01:22:34   it looks worse on the Mac than it does anywhere else.

01:22:36   In fact, Apple even has a screenshot,

01:22:38   this is from like one of their WWC things or whatever,

01:22:40   where they're saying, "Look, you can write the same code,

01:22:43   And it can manifest itself on iPhone, iPad, and on the Mac,

01:22:49   the same code in all those different places.

01:22:51   And in each place, it will look appropriate for the platform

01:22:53   and do the thing.

01:22:54   And there's a screenshot here in our Notes document

01:22:57   that has a phone screen, an iPad screen, and a Mac screen

01:23:00   showing similar type of UI.

01:23:04   And it just plain looks worse on the Mac.

01:23:07   And when I say looks worse, I don't mean like it's

01:23:09   not pretty or whatever.

01:23:10   Oh, it's not pretty.

01:23:12   It is not, yeah, that is a thing, but that's subjective.

01:23:15   You're like, well, what's pretty?

01:23:16   You know, if you look at an old thing with the pinstripes,

01:23:17   maybe it doesn't look great,

01:23:18   but we thought it would look cool then or whatever.

01:23:19   But like from a user interface perspective, you can say,

01:23:22   is the text legible?

01:23:23   Is it clear which control goes with which text?

01:23:26   Is it clear which things are controls

01:23:27   and what I can click on?

01:23:28   Like basic usability stuff.

01:23:31   And the Mac incarnation of this standard control,

01:23:34   I forget what they call it.

01:23:35   It's like a standard control,

01:23:36   like an inset control or something or whatever,

01:23:40   As deployed on the Mac, it just looks worse.

01:23:42   There's not a lot of contrast,

01:23:44   there's not a lot of visual hierarchy.

01:23:45   The controls seem like they're smaller than they are

01:23:48   on the iPhone and the iPad, but you can say,

01:23:49   "Well, that makes sense, 'cause on the iPhone and the iPad,

01:23:51   "you're using your big, meaty finger,

01:23:52   "and on the Mac, you have a very precise pointing device,

01:23:55   "like a mouse."

01:23:56   But I don't think that's the reason

01:23:57   to make the controls smaller.

01:23:59   Why not make them at least the same size

01:24:00   as they are on the iPad?

01:24:02   No one complained that a control was too big,

01:24:03   there's just so much room.

01:24:05   And then finally, sort of the uniformity,

01:24:07   which some people like,

01:24:08   say, "Oh, it's so much easier to scan."

01:24:10   But having everything to be left-justified label, right-justified control, sometimes

01:24:14   the label is very widely separated from the control such that you feel like you need one

01:24:17   of those straight edges that some people read with to put on your screen to say, "Does this

01:24:22   switch go with that item?"

01:24:23   But you have to scan back and forth.

01:24:28   I don't think the usability is as good as it is on the iPad or on the phone.

01:24:35   And furthermore, if you look in Apple's user interface guidelines, they have a whole section

01:24:39   on when you should use these little toggle switches versus when you should use checkboxes.

01:24:43   And arguably in Apple's own interface guidelines they say you should probably not have a screen

01:24:47   full of these toggle switches.

01:24:49   Now granted, settings is just screen full toggle switches, so obviously they've been

01:24:53   violating that supposed guideline forever.

01:24:55   But if you look at system preferences, when you have a list of things with checkboxes,

01:24:59   the checkbox is always right next to the label.

01:25:02   is you've got the checkbox label right next to it.

01:25:04   No matter how long the label is,

01:25:05   you can make the window wide and the labels can go long

01:25:07   and the labels can wrap and everything,

01:25:09   but the label is always right next to it.

01:25:10   And by the way, if you click on the label

01:25:12   in a good Mac app, it will activate

01:25:14   and deactivate the checkbox.

01:25:16   All these things are not true of,

01:25:18   granted, this is just beta one.

01:25:19   All these things are not true

01:25:21   of this stuff in system settings.

01:25:22   And I think the main root problem is

01:25:25   the default standard controls for this stuff in SwiftUI,

01:25:29   like whatever this is called,

01:25:30   I should have looked up the name,

01:25:31   but I think it's called like inset form control or whatever.

01:25:33   That control has poor usability and is ugly.

01:25:38   And that is not a problem with like,

01:25:40   oh, you shouldn't have redesigned the settings interface.

01:25:42   That's a problem with the control.

01:25:44   Like we talked about this back in the very olden days

01:25:46   of the iPhone.

01:25:47   What if you made an iPhone app

01:25:48   that just used standard iPhone controls

01:25:50   back in like 2007, 2008?

01:25:52   You didn't do any custom controls.

01:25:54   It was just straight up table views,

01:25:55   toggle switches, navigation bars.

01:25:58   Like you just use the default iOS,

01:26:00   it wasn't even called iOS then,

01:26:01   default iPhone controls and you didn't do anything fancy,

01:26:05   you'd still have an app that had good usability

01:26:08   and looked okay, right?

01:26:09   It wouldn't be fancy, no one would be wowed by it,

01:26:11   but it would work well and it would look okay.

01:26:15   That's the job of sort of the OS widgets.

01:26:17   If you say, here's what you should use for a table view,

01:26:20   here's what you should use for like switches,

01:26:22   here's what you should use for the equivalent

01:26:23   of pop-up menus, that stuff needs to look good

01:26:27   and have good usability.

01:26:28   you know, both of those things.

01:26:30   And if you make an app with just those standard controls,

01:26:34   it should be okay.

01:26:35   That's not true of this SwiftUI set of controls on the Mac.

01:26:40   On the phone, I think it's fine.

01:26:42   You look at it on the phone,

01:26:43   yeah, settings is probably too long

01:26:44   and it's done that they have a search field

01:26:45   and the organization is crappy, but it's okay.

01:26:47   We get by, right?

01:26:48   On the iPad, you get a sidebar, it's similar, it's all right.

01:26:51   On the Mac, it's worse than both of those.

01:26:54   The controls have poor usability and they are ugly.

01:26:57   And that's not really the fault of the team writing the system settings app.

01:27:00   It's the fault of the team writing these controls in SwiftUI,

01:27:04   not thinking about how they're going to look

01:27:05   and how usable they're going to be on the Mac.

01:27:07   Maybe the system settings team should think about,

01:27:10   "Is this the right control if the label is literally four inches

01:27:13   from the tiny little switch that's supposedly associated with it

01:27:15   and there's nothing except for a slightly darker gray line

01:27:19   tracing along underneath it?

01:27:20   You have to follow with your eyeballs to find out which label goes with which switch."

01:27:23   So I'm still kind of upset about this redesign

01:27:27   because I feel like--

01:27:28   - Are you?

01:27:29   - Yeah, every single one of those redesign preference panes

01:27:32   or whatever the hell we're calling them now

01:27:33   is worse than the thing it replaces.

01:27:36   And not necessarily because it's like the wrong direction

01:27:39   to be going in, but just because it's being failed

01:27:41   by the standard system controls.

01:27:43   And beyond that, some of those little beautiful bento boxes,

01:27:46   they were really nice.

01:27:48   One of them that a lot of people were highlighting,

01:27:50   but I also tweeted about is the trackpad control,

01:27:52   which had the cool video and everything.

01:27:53   and Craig Federi said, oh, don't worry,

01:27:55   those videos stuff are coming back,

01:27:56   we have an even better idea,

01:27:57   it's gonna look awesome or whatever, right?

01:27:59   So that's just, you know, again, it's beta one,

01:28:00   everything's not done yet, this will be revised, right?

01:28:03   But it's not just the fact that there were little videos

01:28:05   showing you the trackpad gestures

01:28:07   that makes that preference paint awesome,

01:28:09   look at the visual hierarchy in it,

01:28:10   look how clear everything is,

01:28:12   look how beautifully it's laid out, right?

01:28:14   There is an art to that, and that art is 100% absent

01:28:18   from beta one of the Ventura System Settings app.

01:28:21   So I really hope someone does sweat over

01:28:24   these individual controls.

01:28:25   I hope someone does sweat over the organization

01:28:27   of the things in the sidebar and maybe give us options.

01:28:30   And I hope someone really does think long and hard

01:28:32   about whether a long vertical list of short labels

01:28:36   widely separated by white space

01:28:37   with right justified toggle switches

01:28:39   is the right interface to literally

01:28:40   every single setting on the Mac.

01:28:42   (laughing)

01:28:43   - No, I am with you.

01:28:45   I mean, when you look at screenshots,

01:28:48   you've made these great comparisons,

01:28:50   you look at the screenshots of the same screen,

01:28:52   old versus new, a few things are very clear to me.

01:28:55   Number one, you are absolutely right, surprise,

01:28:58   you are absolutely right that it's like the default control

01:29:01   style that was designed for iOS first,

01:29:05   and they ported it to Mac with this SwiftUI cross-platform

01:29:08   stuff.

01:29:09   It doesn't look good on the Mac.

01:29:11   All these controls look wrong.

01:29:13   The proportions are wrong.

01:29:14   The way the screen flows is wrong.

01:29:16   Having everything labeled on the left,

01:29:18   huge gap thing on the right, that is wrong.

01:29:21   - The colors are wrong, the contrast is wrong.

01:29:23   - Right, and it's very, very clear that the Mac version

01:29:28   of these SwiftUI controls is absolutely not a high priority

01:29:34   for the design team, or they just suck at designing them.

01:29:37   And I'm assuming that, given that they work

01:29:39   for the best design company in the world,

01:29:41   generally speaking, I'm assuming that it's the former.

01:29:44   And I hope, for their sake, it's the former.

01:29:47   Because it just seems like, you know,

01:29:50   when you look at the old UI,

01:29:53   it does look dated to a degree.

01:29:57   And I understand why the software designers

01:29:59   are trying to, you know, quote, move things forward,

01:30:02   you know, whether it's actually forward

01:30:03   is not always the case, but they're trying

01:30:06   to move things in a different direction,

01:30:07   just because the previous way is dated.

01:30:10   And the concerns that Federighi brought up

01:30:12   on the talk show about things like, you know,

01:30:14   like scaling and adding more preferences and everything,

01:30:16   Those are valid concerns.

01:30:17   Also, the previous system preferences app is not perfect,

01:30:21   and Apple has had a very hard time,

01:30:24   seemingly in recent years, adding things to it

01:30:26   in a way that functions reliably and doesn't suck.

01:30:30   Look at the process for approving apps

01:30:33   for security preferences, where you have to grant

01:30:35   this app access to record the screen or whatever.

01:30:38   And the process of doing that,

01:30:40   when the little lock in the corner

01:30:41   that you have to somehow see and click,

01:30:43   and the weird button that appears that sometimes works

01:30:45   and sometimes doesn't and gotta reboot sometimes.

01:30:48   The whole system preferences app is not perfect

01:30:51   and the old design was dated.

01:30:55   However, the new design direction of Mac OS,

01:30:59   even more severely than iOS,

01:31:01   is very strongly in the direction of stripping out

01:31:06   every design element that makes things usable, really.

01:31:12   what they're going for is very much like,

01:31:15   this layout looks clean,

01:31:18   like a clean magazine spread or whatever.

01:31:20   I don't know what they're,

01:31:21   you know, that's clearly the only,

01:31:22   like the aesthetic that they're going for,

01:31:25   but it just doesn't work on the Mac

01:31:28   the way they've designed it right now.

01:31:30   And unfortunately, I think what we've seen,

01:31:34   like notifications, is that when something on the Mac

01:31:40   is redesigned that's not Safari.

01:31:43   Even then, I think if, like last year's Safari design hoopla,

01:31:48   I think if it was only on the Mac,

01:31:51   I think it would have shipped.

01:31:52   And the only reason we got that changed

01:31:55   was that it was on the iPhone

01:31:56   and that was angering the public.

01:31:58   But what we see on the Mac

01:32:00   under the current design administration

01:32:03   is that they dictate what they think is right

01:32:05   and then never touch it.

01:32:07   And so I actually don't think this is gonna get better.

01:32:10   You know, what Federighi said was not that the design

01:32:13   of the widgets was gonna get better

01:32:15   as the beta process goes.

01:32:16   It was that like, you know, some of the content

01:32:18   of these panels was gonna be more fleshed out

01:32:20   or more polished or whatever.

01:32:21   That's very different.

01:32:22   The actual design of the widgets,

01:32:24   I think we're stuck with for God knows how long.

01:32:28   Because what we all see, you know,

01:32:30   look, the notification design, since Big Sur sucks,

01:32:35   it's still very much here in Monterey

01:32:37   and appears to be unchanged in Ventura as well.

01:32:40   Why?

01:32:41   If the design and the usability of these things on the Mac

01:32:44   was being well cared for,

01:32:47   that wouldn't have made it out of the big Sur beta.

01:32:49   But here we are, two releases later,

01:32:51   it's still like untouched on Modify.

01:32:53   - It got a little better.

01:32:54   - Oh it did? - With the show notes, man.

01:32:56   Yeah, Mac dialog, style chosen automatically,

01:32:58   display time based on content.

01:33:00   So if you have a--

01:33:00   - You're jumping ahead.

01:33:02   - That's dialog, not notifications.

01:33:03   But anyway--

01:33:04   - Oh, I'm sorry, you're right.

01:33:05   - Relevant to notifications,

01:33:06   let me hoist up a thing from way down in the show notes.

01:33:10   Speaking of notifications that haven't changed

01:33:11   that people will complain about,

01:33:12   you may think, what are people complaining about?

01:33:13   It's a little rounded rectangle, it's in the corner.

01:33:15   What's bad about the Mac notifications?

01:33:17   Well, the two things people were complaining about,

01:33:19   which apparently were not important enough

01:33:21   for Apple to change was one,

01:33:22   they hid all the controls for a supposed cleaner look,

01:33:25   and you only see them when they mouse over,

01:33:27   and two, and this is the one that kills me,

01:33:29   all right, so it's mystery mouseover stuff.

01:33:31   Nobody likes that, but yeah,

01:33:32   in the end it's not that bad, right?

01:33:34   There are still bugs that have been there since Big Sur.

01:33:37   Please click on Dave Nadian's tweet

01:33:39   where he managed to capture a video of a bug

01:33:41   that I encounter all the time and drives me up a wall

01:33:43   and it has been there for two major releases of Mac OS.

01:33:46   If you're going to make a Mystery Meat navigation thing

01:33:50   where you have a window with no controls on it

01:33:53   and the controls appear when you bring your mouse over it

01:33:55   for some reason because you want that cleaner look,

01:33:58   when I mouse over it,

01:33:59   I have to be able to use the controls.

01:34:00   And what happens to me and what you'll see in this video

01:34:02   is you mouse over the notification

01:34:04   and you see the little X to close it,

01:34:06   and you see the button that lets you do things like

01:34:08   mark a task as completed, or a reminder, or whatever,

01:34:11   or snooze it, or do one of those things.

01:34:12   By the way, they took out some snooze options too,

01:34:14   just to annoy you even more.

01:34:15   Or click on the button, right?

01:34:17   And you go to click the button,

01:34:18   and when you bring your mouse over there,

01:34:19   the button disappears.

01:34:21   It's a sick little game that notifications plays

01:34:23   with on the Mac.

01:34:24   Two major versions of Mac OS, this bug has existed.

01:34:26   And this is not a minor bug.

01:34:28   You can't do the thing that you're supposed to be able

01:34:30   to do from the notification if it won't let you click

01:34:32   on that button because when you mouse over it,

01:34:35   the button disappears.

01:34:37   Two major versions of Mac OS.

01:34:39   So when we say, oh the notifications on Mac are crappy

01:34:42   and they need to be done, it's not just 'cause we think

01:34:43   they're ugly, it's not just because we don't like

01:34:46   that they hid text until you mouse over it,

01:34:48   it's like they don't fulfill the job

01:34:50   they're supposed to fulfill, it's like let me mark

01:34:53   the reminder as complete, let me snooze this task,

01:34:56   let me click the settings button, it's like ha ha ha.

01:34:58   I mean, I've come up with workarounds where you can

01:35:01   figure out a series of mousing gestures

01:35:03   that will let you get to the button before it disappears,

01:35:05   but come on.

01:35:06   - As much as I love what they're doing

01:35:09   with the Mac hardware recently,

01:35:11   the Mac software still has a lot of issues like this.

01:35:13   And I think what we see over and over again from Apple

01:35:16   is that they're just not putting the resources

01:35:20   into the Mac software to really keep it great.

01:35:23   The Mac software, it moves forward in certain ways,

01:35:26   but it also moves back in others,

01:35:28   and it seems like it just never has the quality

01:35:31   in both bugs and also, I mean, even, honestly,

01:35:35   I think the bug side has actually gotten pretty

01:35:37   well improved over the last few releases,

01:35:39   but the design side is getting worse now.

01:35:42   But I think ultimately though,

01:35:43   what gives me some hope here,

01:35:46   Apple has shown that they have not really

01:35:49   been trying very hard with the old way

01:35:52   of the Mac doing things.

01:35:53   Like the old way, you know, using AppKit

01:35:55   and using old Cocoa Controls and native stuff

01:35:59   and the old design styles where things were much more clear

01:36:03   and decorated and indicated visually and usable.

01:36:06   However, for Apple to fix all the bugs that we had

01:36:11   in those old previous releases,

01:36:13   we have to hop on the new train.

01:36:15   And as I said, the system settings app is full of bugs

01:36:18   in previous releases.

01:36:20   There's so many problems with it and limitations

01:36:23   and things that are unintuitive.

01:36:24   And so by moving to this new, more unified,

01:36:28   Swift UI based design, I don't love the design at all.

01:36:33   I think the design is a hideous step backwards

01:36:35   and I think anybody who designed it

01:36:37   whose title includes the word usability

01:36:39   should probably be fired.

01:36:41   However, it's also the path that Apple's

01:36:45   actually actively working on.

01:36:47   On the Mac, the path to Mac happiness as a user

01:36:52   is to stay on the path they're actively working on

01:36:54   because everything else is just gonna be a train wreck

01:36:57   of deterioration and bugs and everything else.

01:37:00   So if this helps them actively work on the Mac more

01:37:05   and better and with higher quality,

01:37:07   that's the price we have to pay.

01:37:09   It would be great if we could have both.

01:37:11   If we could have, like, you know,

01:37:13   back when the Mac was their only major platform,

01:37:15   if we could have the Mac being like the thing

01:37:18   that got a lot of attention and was good

01:37:20   and was moving forward and was pretty, you know,

01:37:23   stable and high quality,

01:37:24   that'd be great if we can get all of that.

01:37:26   Unfortunately, Apple has shown that we can't get all of that

01:37:28   right now, and that's their fault, and 100%, you know,

01:37:31   that's on them because there's no reason why things

01:37:33   need to be that way, but that's the reality.

01:37:36   So as long as they are working on the Mac,

01:37:39   and continuing to move this stuff forward,

01:37:42   if the only way we can get them to keep doing that reliably

01:37:45   is to use these terrible new designs that can help them

01:37:48   use more cross-platform code, that's just the cost

01:37:51   of being a Mac user right now in software,

01:37:53   and it sucks that we have to pay that cost, but we do.

01:37:56   So System Preferences, as it previously existed,

01:37:58   like I said, it's kind of like a museum of UI.

01:38:02   You can go through it and say, oh, this room was created

01:38:05   in 1857.

01:38:06   Different preference panes are dated

01:38:08   by when someone created them.

01:38:10   A lot of them were clearly created back in the day

01:38:12   when maybe there weren't any designers assigned

01:38:14   to that preference pane, and someone just

01:38:16   threw something together as a developer,

01:38:18   and ah, it's good enough, right?

01:38:19   And the modern one is like, this preference pane

01:38:22   is really a web view in disguise,

01:38:24   because this came about at the time.

01:38:26   It's iCloud related, and we had web interfaces for it,

01:38:28   so we didn't bother re-implementing this,

01:38:30   so really it's just a big web view,

01:38:31   and you don't need to know that,

01:38:32   but that's why it looks totally different than this one,

01:38:34   and this one was made before we had a standard control

01:38:36   for lists where you can add or remove items,

01:38:37   so they wrote a custom control for it,

01:38:39   and it's been there for 15 years now,

01:38:41   and I'm not holding it up as this paragon of usability,

01:38:44   but there are gems in there,

01:38:45   and those gems were beautiful hand polished things

01:38:48   in the old way of Mac user interfaces

01:38:50   that had a lot of good qualities,

01:38:52   And the new way, you know, a bunch of standard controls,

01:38:55   these standard controls aren't up to snuff yet,

01:38:57   but like I think a lot of it might just come down

01:38:59   to disagreements, kind of like the notification thing.

01:39:00   If you ask them like,

01:39:01   "Why can't I see any controls on the notifications?"

01:39:04   Oh, it looks better with no controls.

01:39:05   The controls appear just when you need them,

01:39:06   so you mouse over them,

01:39:07   but why should the controls be cluttering up the interface

01:39:11   when you just want to look at them with your eyeballs?

01:39:12   The controls will appear when you mouse over them,

01:39:14   and then I'll show them the bug and get angry at them.

01:39:15   But anyway, and so an example of a disagreement,

01:39:19   Craig Hockenberry has a tweet showing,

01:39:21   He was trying to change the name of his computer, which is in the sharing preference pane.

01:39:24   Again, I don't know what the hell we call these in a world where it's not called system

01:39:26   preferences.

01:39:27   The file name extension is probably still .preferencepane.

01:39:30   I haven't actually checked.

01:39:31   But anyway, I'm going to continue calling preferencepane.

01:39:33   So he goes into sharing, and as he said in his tweet, "It took me forever to figure out

01:39:37   how to change my computer name."

01:39:38   And then he has a screenshot which shows the sharing preference pane with two vaguely different

01:39:43   gray colors.

01:39:44   Like there's a gray background and a slightly, very slightly darker -- this is testing the

01:39:49   the color calibration of your monitor.

01:39:50   Very slightly darker gray inset area

01:39:53   with very, very slightly darker hairline gray lines

01:39:57   on the border separating items.

01:39:58   And on the very left side of the screen,

01:40:00   it says computer name.

01:40:01   Then there's three inches of white space.

01:40:03   And then it says Craig's MacBook Pro.

01:40:05   It's just text.

01:40:06   It's just black text on a slightly darker gray background

01:40:09   and a slightly lighter gray background

01:40:10   within a slightly lighter gray window, right?

01:40:13   And so he says, it's not the edit button

01:40:15   because there is an edit button

01:40:16   right below Craig's MacBook Pro.

01:40:18   But that edit button does not let you edit the computer name

01:40:21   'cause there's that hairline dividing it, telling you,

01:40:23   see this edit button is not for that.

01:40:24   And the text field doesn't highlight

01:40:26   until something else in the panel gets focused

01:40:29   except the edit button.

01:40:30   So if you click the edit button and it gets focused,

01:40:32   that thing, like what I'm saying is this is a text field,

01:40:36   but it does not look like editable text.

01:40:38   It looks exactly the same as the label.

01:40:40   You can't click computer name, that's the label.

01:40:42   You can't change the label in the thing,

01:40:45   but you can change the text, Craig's MacBook Pro,

01:40:48   but you don't know that until you highlight

01:40:49   some other control in the thing.

01:40:51   This is not rocket science.

01:40:52   We're asking for a text field with a label.

01:40:55   We should have that technology.

01:40:57   The standard controls for SwiftUI for Mac OS

01:41:01   have to be better than this.

01:41:02   I'm not saying they have to look exactly like the old ones

01:41:04   or work exactly like the old ones,

01:41:05   but for crying out loud, you should be like,

01:41:08   the label shouldn't be three inches from the thing

01:41:11   that it controls, and the thing it controls,

01:41:13   if it's a text field, should look like a text field.

01:41:15   It shouldn't require me to focus something else.

01:41:17   It shouldn't require me to mouse over it.

01:41:18   Am I gonna mouse over every piece of text

01:41:20   to see if it's editable?

01:41:21   Like, this is not discoverable.

01:41:22   This is poor usability.

01:41:24   And on top of all that, it's aesthetically ugly.

01:41:26   I don't think it looks nice.

01:41:27   It's got nothing going for it,

01:41:29   other than the fact that underneath it,

01:41:31   it's the same SwiftUI code that would run everywhere,

01:41:33   which is great, I endorse that.

01:41:35   But there's no reason, like,

01:41:36   oh, it's ugly 'cause it's cross-platform.

01:41:38   There's no reason cross-platform code has to be this ugly.

01:41:42   Each platform, the whole point of this cross-platform code

01:41:44   is that each platform can choose to implement

01:41:47   this declarative UI in a way that looks appropriate

01:41:49   for the platform.

01:41:50   The iPhone one looks great, the iPad one looks okay,

01:41:53   the Mac one looks like garbage,

01:41:54   so that's what they need to work on.

01:41:57   - I think at this point, again, I don't mean to

01:42:01   keep harping on their poor software design,

01:42:04   but for all the great stuff they've been doing

01:42:07   in hardware recently, and in some of the cross-platform apps

01:42:11   and services and APIs and everything,

01:42:13   Those have all been pretty great,

01:42:16   but I don't think Apple's able to design

01:42:18   good Mac interfaces anymore.

01:42:20   And that's not even a very recent thing.

01:42:22   That's been, I think we've been heading down

01:42:24   that path for a while.

01:42:25   We can no longer rely on Apple to design good Mac apps

01:42:30   and good Mac UIs and good Mac software.

01:42:33   They are great at the frameworks,

01:42:35   they are amazing at that, they are great at the hardware,

01:42:37   again, amazing at that, but they just don't design

01:42:41   good apps anymore. And that's not that reason of a thing, and it's also not turning around

01:42:47   at all. There's occasional bright spots of bright light, but that's not the norm. For

01:42:52   the most part, they're not good at Mac design. They're not good at Mac app design and Mac

01:42:56   UI design. And we have to rely on the community for that. The basic Windows design was always

01:43:03   crap, like Microsoft Windows, it was always crap. And as a result, the ecosystem was mostly

01:43:09   but you have occasional bright spots of light

01:43:12   in the ecosystem.

01:43:13   That's what the Mac is now.

01:43:14   Apple has lost the will and the prioritization

01:43:18   and the ability to make great Mac apps

01:43:20   and great Mac UI designs.

01:43:23   And so we're gonna have to rely on the community for that

01:43:26   and greatly lower our expectations

01:43:29   of what's coming out of Apple in those areas,

01:43:32   which is a shame.

01:43:32   Again, it doesn't need to be this way.

01:43:35   There's nothing stopping them

01:43:36   from getting better people in there

01:43:39   and prioritizing this better.

01:43:40   And there's a lot of great people in the company

01:43:42   who know how to do this right.

01:43:44   They're not being enabled.

01:43:45   They're not winning the arguments.

01:43:48   There are people there who have been there a long time

01:43:50   who really have great sensibilities in these areas.

01:43:53   The reason we harp on it from the outside so much

01:43:55   is to hopefully help them win some arguments on the inside.

01:43:58   But it just seems like we're down a really rough path

01:44:01   in those areas.

01:44:02   And we just can't, you know,

01:44:03   Apple's no longer a leader in UI design.

01:44:05   It's simple as that.

01:44:06   They gave it up.

01:44:08   They walked right away from it and whoever is leading the charge there can't do it or

01:44:13   chooses not to, especially at the Mac.

01:44:15   And again, they have great strengths in all these other areas, but that's not one of them

01:44:20   anymore.

01:44:21   I pulled myself off on a tangent getting angry about this computer name thing, but the point

01:44:24   I was trying to make about it being a disagreement is, same idea with the notifications.

01:44:30   Why should Craig's MacBook Pro, why should it look like an always visible text box?

01:44:34   a big white box with your text inside it.

01:44:38   When I'm not editing it, shouldn't it just look like text?

01:44:42   And then when I edit it, that's when the text controls will be and a focus ring will be

01:44:46   around it or whatever.

01:44:48   That's the thinking, the same thinking with the notifications.

01:44:50   It shouldn't have any of this visual clutter.

01:44:51   I don't need to see those buttons, I just need the information notification.

01:44:54   Only when I mouse over it does it appear.

01:44:56   And that philosophy brought to so many parts of the Mac, you're just very interested in

01:45:00   closing this, leads to a situation where you have a label and a text field which look identical

01:45:03   to each other that you just have to know,

01:45:05   oh, that's not just telling you what your computer name is,

01:45:08   that's editable.

01:45:08   And by the way, don't click the edit button below that

01:45:10   because that's not the thing to edit.

01:45:12   You have to mouse over the thing and then suddenly

01:45:13   what looked like text on a background becomes text field.

01:45:16   And that's the sort of the, they would say,

01:45:18   well, we just disagree.

01:45:19   It's not bad UI, we just disagree.

01:45:21   I think visual clutter is the worst sin in the world.

01:45:23   And you think, you know, I should have all these ugly

01:45:26   controls and everything everywhere so I know

01:45:28   which things are buttons and so I know which things

01:45:30   are editable.

01:45:31   We have this argument with iOS 7, right?

01:45:32   Should buttons look like buttons?

01:45:33   How can I tell what I can click on or whatever?

01:45:36   And I feel like we're having all those same arguments

01:45:38   over again, like we've got all this screen space.

01:45:41   Visually distinguish the elements.

01:45:44   Show me what is a text field, what is a button.

01:45:46   Don't put everything in a pop-up menu.

01:45:48   Speaking of pop-up menus, the pop-up menus

01:45:49   don't look like pop-up menus anymore.

01:45:51   It looks like text on a background

01:45:53   with a little up and down caret,

01:45:55   like a V and an upside down V next to it.

01:45:57   You just have to know, by the way,

01:45:58   that if you click that up and down V thing,

01:46:01   that the whole thing is, you know,

01:46:02   they look like actually the, what are they called?

01:46:04   Like the controls where you can go,

01:46:06   like there's a number in a text field

01:46:07   and you can hit the up arrow and down arrow

01:46:08   to change the number.

01:46:09   - A stepper?

01:46:10   - Stepper, exactly.

01:46:11   That's what they look at, but it's not a stepper.

01:46:12   That whole thing is a pop-up menu.

01:46:14   It looks nothing like a pop-up menu, right?

01:46:15   I'm not saying the controls need to look

01:46:17   the way they used to.

01:46:18   The controls have changed a lot over the years, right?

01:46:20   But it needs to be clear what to control.

01:46:22   The controls need to have an appearance

01:46:25   that makes it obvious what they are.

01:46:27   And it seems like this thing,

01:46:28   it's like a golf contest.

01:46:30   how few lines can I draw on the screen?

01:46:32   (laughing)

01:46:32   Like, I just want, like, and you win by just saying,

01:46:36   gray pixels, I have gray pixels and I have text.

01:46:38   How many colors of gray do you have?

01:46:39   I only got two colors of gray.

01:46:40   Ooh, you're winning.

01:46:41   Do you have any lines?

01:46:42   Very few and they're hardly visible, right?

01:46:43   It's like, that's not, I don't,

01:46:46   all right, I need to stop yelling about this.

01:46:48   (laughing)

01:46:49   Move on to the tangentially related topic,

01:46:51   which we talked about this a little bit last week.

01:46:53   So this used to be called system preferences

01:46:55   and now it's called system settings, right?

01:46:57   There is a companion to go with that.

01:47:00   which is that preferences, which is command comma,

01:47:03   as the keyboard shortcut traditionally on the Mac,

01:47:05   that preferences menu item that is in the application menu,

01:47:08   so if you go text edit,

01:47:10   go to the menu that's called text edit,

01:47:11   there's an item in there called preferences

01:47:13   by convention on the Mac,

01:47:15   that menu item is now being renamed to settings.

01:47:18   There's some been rumbling about,

01:47:19   like if you build against the new SDK,

01:47:21   your preferences menu item

01:47:22   will just be automatically called settings,

01:47:24   but then you'll have to wander through

01:47:25   all your help document and everything like that

01:47:27   and change it to settings.

01:47:29   This, you know, for the same reason system preferences

01:47:31   would change to settings, unification with iPad OS and iOS,

01:47:34   like it makes some sense, but boy,

01:47:36   this is gonna be a short-term headache

01:47:38   for people dealing with, okay, well,

01:47:40   if you're on Ventura or later, go to settings menu item,

01:47:44   but if you're on a previous,

01:47:45   if you're writing like documentation

01:47:46   on your website or something,

01:47:47   but if you're on a previous OS,

01:47:48   that thing is not gonna be called settings

01:47:49   because it's in real preferences,

01:47:50   or maybe you'll make a cult settings everywhere.

01:47:52   Anyway, a naming unification, right?

01:47:55   But last week I was saying, why is it called,

01:47:58   Why is the application that was called System Preferences

01:48:00   called System Settings?

01:48:03   It's just called Settings on your phone.

01:48:04   It's just called Settings on your iPad.

01:48:06   But on the Mac, it's called System Settings.

01:48:08   One of the attempts to explain this was, OK, well,

01:48:11   if you launch TextEdit on Ventura,

01:48:15   there is a menu item in the TextEdit menu called Settings.

01:48:19   It used to be called Preferences,

01:48:20   but now it's called Settings.

01:48:21   But if you go one menu over to the Apple menu,

01:48:24   in the Apple menu, there's a menu item

01:48:26   called System Settings that will bring up the app

01:48:28   formerly known as System Preferences.

01:48:30   So you've got Settings and System Settings,

01:48:31   and it's clear the Settings menu would be the settings

01:48:34   for TextEdit, and the one in the Apple menu

01:48:36   is the System Settings, which makes a little bit of sense

01:48:40   except when you say, but the menu is called TextEdit.

01:48:43   So if I go into a menu called TextEdit

01:48:45   and there's an item called Settings,

01:48:46   it's pretty clear these are the settings for TextEdit.

01:48:48   The literal name of the menu item is TextEdit, right?

01:48:51   Whereas when I go into the Apple menu,

01:48:53   You could make the menu item say system settings,

01:48:57   but the app that it launches could just be called settings,

01:49:00   just like it is on your phone,

01:49:01   just like it is in your iPad.

01:49:02   So the renaming, yeah, renaming is annoying or whatever.

01:49:06   We'll get used to it.

01:49:07   But I would suggest to Apple, perhaps,

01:49:09   call the app settings,

01:49:11   make the menu item called system settings,

01:49:14   and then everyone will be slightly more happy.

01:49:17   This is, again, this is the least of the problems

01:49:19   of everything happening in the system settings,

01:49:21   and I mostly endorse the renaming

01:49:23   system preferences why was it ever called that no one knows what it is

01:49:26   everyone just knows setting on their phone it makes sense makes perfect sense

01:49:28   everyone knows the phone nobody knows the Mac like I understand why they're

01:49:31   doing it makes some sense but this you know I I think it could just be called

01:49:35   settings and now the the thing with a personal that I have a personal

01:49:40   connection to is again my dinky little app switch glass it's got one sort of

01:49:47   setting slash preferences window that kind of grew to the point where I can't

01:49:51   make it any bigger because it doesn't fit on an iPad screen.

01:49:54   That's my bad, right?

01:49:55   I knew I was doing it, but I'm like, ah, it's a dinky app.

01:49:57   I don't need to have separate windows.

01:49:58   But one of the sins I committed with the UI of my app

01:50:01   is that I combine global settings that

01:50:04   affect the entire application with settings just

01:50:07   for that display, because I have separate per display settings

01:50:09   or whatever.

01:50:11   And you can get away with it and make some sense.

01:50:13   The sections are clearly labeled or whatever.

01:50:15   But it really should split it into two things.

01:50:16   And when I was thinking about splitting it into two things,

01:50:19   One menu item will bring up the global things for the app, right?

01:50:24   And that would be, in the old world, called preferences.

01:50:26   And it would be Command, comma if my app had keyboard shortcuts,

01:50:29   but it doesn't because it's in the menu bar. Anyway.

01:50:31   And the other menu item would be called settings,

01:50:35   because it's the settings for the app switcher on that screen.

01:50:38   But now that settings has been renamed preferences,

01:50:40   what am I going to have? Two menu items called settings?

01:50:42   Is one going to be called global settings, regular settings,

01:50:45   app switcher settings? Do I have to look through the source

01:50:48   for different words for settings.

01:50:50   This is really throwing a monkey wrench

01:50:52   into my planned 2.0 revision of the UI

01:50:55   where I'm going to finally split the global settings

01:50:57   from the app palette settings

01:50:59   'cause now I can't use the word preferences anywhere

01:51:01   because that's just not a thing anymore

01:51:03   in Ventura in future, so I have to rethink all of that.

01:51:06   Oh, and related to the renaming, by the way,

01:51:08   I didn't check this but somebody said it

01:51:10   and I'm inclined to believe it,

01:51:11   but this is just gonna drive people more crazy.

01:51:13   In system settings, the thing that was previously called

01:51:17   the preference pane, whatever we're calling it,

01:51:18   it was previously called security ampersand privacy,

01:51:21   is now called privacy ampersand security.

01:51:24   Come on, now you're just trolling us.

01:51:27   Can you imagine trying to write documentation

01:51:29   and explain to people, go to security and privacy.

01:51:31   I don't see anything called security and privacy.

01:51:32   Of course you do, it's right there.

01:51:34   I see something called privacy and security.

01:51:35   (groans)

01:51:37   What are you doing, Apple, what are you doing?

01:51:39   - You just need to be put in charge of this, Jon.

01:51:42   - Well, if I was put in charge of this, I would say,

01:51:45   I already said what I would say with the settings renaming thing, but like, I feel for the team

01:51:50   that's working on system settings, because they don't control the whole entire Swift

01:51:53   UI framework.

01:51:54   They're just, they got the edict, you're going to make this with Swift UI, which I think

01:51:57   is a reasonable edict, which we may or may not get to later in the show, probably not

01:52:01   at this rate.

01:52:02   But you know, they're doing the best they can with what they've been given.

01:52:06   I feel like this needs to be a team effort to make this whole thing better.

01:52:09   Starting with, as Marco pointed out, maybe starting all the way down with the design

01:52:12   team who has notions that are not in keeping.

01:52:16   Good. Yeah, there you go. Thank you.

01:52:18   Honestly, I think that might be our show. I think we make it good now.

01:52:24   We need to talk about Mac dialogues because you mentioned it before and I think it's worth it.

01:52:27   Yeah, throw it in.

01:52:28   Oh, yes, you're right. I'm sorry. I completely forgot about that. Yeah, so the dialogues are

01:52:34   ever so slightly less bananas now in certain circumstances. So apparently there are different

01:52:40   styles for NS alerts and there's now expanded alerts which basically instead of centering

01:52:46   everything it makes it look like pros you know left aligned and and and pretty much what you

01:52:52   would expect and it doesn't look utterly stupid which is great yeah what is it was it big so when

01:52:57   they did this they changed the mac dialogue boxes to look like they do on ipad os and ios basically

01:53:03   being center aligned a big long skinny vertical window um and they just did that you know system

01:53:09   some control. You just say, "Give me a window modal or app modal dialog box," and you just

01:53:14   tell it, "Here's the content of the dialog box. Here's what the button should be." Back

01:53:17   in the old days, it would be "Okay" and "Cancel," whatever, like a dialog box, right? Like,

01:53:21   "Are you sure you want to do this operation? Are you sure you want to delete this thing?

01:53:25   Delete or cancel," or whatever, right? And that's, for people who don't know, from the

01:53:29   program perspective, that's the API you do. You just say, "Put up a dialog. Here's the

01:53:34   content. Here's what the button should be called. Here's the callbacks for them." You

01:53:36   don't, for the most part, if you're doing a good job using standard controls, you don't

01:53:39   draw that window yourself.

01:53:40   So when Apple decides, hey, dialog boxes

01:53:43   are going to look different.

01:53:43   Now, instead of them being landscape,

01:53:46   sort of landscape-oriented rectangles with text and buttons,

01:53:50   now they're going to be portrait orientation,

01:53:52   because that looks kind of like they do on the iPad

01:53:53   and the phone, and they made this change,

01:53:55   and a lot of people grumbled, and the text was centered,

01:53:57   and it looked awkward, but most importantly,

01:53:59   usability-wise, sometimes people had so much text

01:54:03   that it didn't fit in the dinky iPad-sized portrait window

01:54:07   anymore, because now the text is wrapping more

01:54:09   'cause the window was narrow or whatever.

01:54:10   So then they would make a scrollable region.

01:54:12   You'd have to know it was scrollable

01:54:14   because if you didn't have scroll bars visible,

01:54:15   if you're lucky, one piece of text would be cut off

01:54:17   by the invisible gray margin at the bottom.

01:54:20   But if you're unlucky, there would be a line of text

01:54:24   and then empty space, like a paragraph break,

01:54:26   and you wouldn't know that there's more text.

01:54:27   You'd have to know if you go over there

01:54:29   and swipe on your mouse or scroll on your mouse wheel

01:54:31   that you'd see more text.

01:54:32   It was a terrible system.

01:54:33   And by the way, it looked ugly

01:54:34   'cause center align text, who wants to read that or whatever.

01:54:37   Everybody can complain.

01:54:38   So in Ventura, did they change it back

01:54:41   to the way Mac dialog boxes have looked since 1984?

01:54:45   No, they did not.

01:54:46   But what they did do is say,

01:54:47   well, if you put a lot of text in a dialog,

01:54:49   what we'll do is instead of showing the iOS,

01:54:51   iPad OS style vertical portrait mode ones

01:54:54   with the scroll-y thing,

01:54:55   we'll show a normal looking Mac dialog box.

01:54:57   But for every other one, we're going to the other one

01:54:58   because the designers are saying,

01:54:59   we're actually, we're right.

01:55:00   Those other ones do look better,

01:55:02   but when there's a lot of text,

01:55:03   we'll show the Mac style one.

01:55:04   And it's like, what are you doing?

01:55:06   'Cause if you're doing this for consistency,

01:55:07   Now you've thrown consistency out the window

01:55:09   because half of dialogue boxes are gonna be this way

01:55:11   and half are gonna be that way depending on the content

01:55:13   of the dialogue box.

01:55:14   That's not gonna make any sense to users.

01:55:16   They're not gonna know why is this one landscape

01:55:17   or why is this one portrait.

01:55:18   Just make them all landscape again.

01:55:20   No one was confused by landscape dialogue boxes.

01:55:22   It fit everyone's apps better.

01:55:24   It works better for the Mac.

01:55:26   Very frustrating.

01:55:26   I mean, this started as a positive item.

01:55:28   Like yay, they have some concessions

01:55:31   on the usability of alerts.

01:55:33   But the more I think about it,

01:55:34   it's like why is this a concession?

01:55:35   Like why are you holding onto the old style?

01:55:38   No one is confused by Mac dialog boxes.

01:55:40   Just make them use the format

01:55:42   where there were fewer layout concerns

01:55:44   and the text was more readable.

01:55:45   - Yeah, that's the thing.

01:55:46   Like the design team cannot accept

01:55:49   that their new design from Big Sur is actually worse.

01:55:53   They won't accept that.

01:55:54   And so instead of reverting back to,

01:55:57   or changing to a different design

01:55:59   where things are wider again

01:56:00   and left aligned text or whatever,

01:56:02   all the old style doing things,

01:56:04   They're insisting, oh no, no, no,

01:56:06   we're only gonna do that when we need to,

01:56:07   but other than that, our awesome new centered

01:56:11   bold text iOS design, that's totally great.

01:56:14   This is why I don't have high hopes for this changing.

01:56:17   It's exactly this kind of thing that tells me

01:56:20   that whatever design elements you don't like in the beta

01:56:23   are not gonna be fixed by the time this is released,

01:56:26   because the design team is misguided right now,

01:56:31   and also they don't think they are.

01:56:33   And that's the issue.

01:56:35   - Yeah, that's the rub.

01:56:38   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:56:39   Squarespace, Linode, and Collide.

01:56:42   Thanks to our members also who support us directly.

01:56:44   You can join and become a member at ATP.FM/join.

01:56:47   We will talk to you next week.

01:56:49   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:56:54   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:56:57   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:56:59   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:57:00   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:57:01   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:57:03   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:57:07   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

01:57:10   It was accidental (accidental)

01:57:13   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:57:18   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:57:23   @c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s

01:57:27   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:57:32   ♪ Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:57:37   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-O-Q-S-A ♪

01:57:39   ♪ It's accidental, accidental ♪

01:57:42   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:57:45   ♪ Accidental, accidental ♪

01:57:47   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:57:49   ♪ So long ♪

01:57:51   - So last week I went on a little bit of an adventure,

01:57:57   which I didn't wanna tell you two about

01:57:58   'cause I thought it would be fun

01:58:00   to just kind of drop it on you tonight.

01:58:03   I would like you to look at the chat room

01:58:06   and click the link that I just pasted there

01:58:10   because last week--

01:58:12   - Why are you standing on a white Rivian?

01:58:15   - Because it turns, well first of all,

01:58:16   the white just happened and it really did.

01:58:18   (laughing)

01:58:18   But second of all, second of all,

01:58:21   that is not my Rivian, I do not have that kind of money.

01:58:23   But as it turns out, there's a Rivian dealer in Richmond.

01:58:28   - They have dealers?

01:58:29   - Yes, which I didn't know either, but yes.

01:58:33   There is a Rivian dealer in Richmond

01:58:35   and a very kind listener, Shaheen,

01:58:37   put me in contact with the local people,

01:58:41   including most particularly my new friend Peebles

01:58:44   who works at Rivian and Peebles took me around

01:58:48   and showed me the dealership as it is today,

01:58:52   which is not a whole lot, but apparently it was

01:58:55   previously owned by some other company, the building was,

01:58:58   and Rivian had like an office area and little else.

01:59:01   But then the previous company left,

01:59:04   and so Rivian is now taking over the rest of the building

01:59:06   and building it out and so on and so forth.

01:59:09   And so I got to spend about half an hour, maybe 40 minutes,

01:59:13   touring the building as they're doing construction

01:59:15   and so on and so forth.

01:59:17   And then I spent about 20 minutes driving a Rivian.

01:59:20   - Oh my God, how is it?

01:59:22   - I don't like pickup trucks.

01:59:25   I really don't like pickup trucks.

01:59:27   (laughing)

01:59:29   I want one of these so freaking bad,

01:59:31   I cannot even tell you.

01:59:33   It is so cool.

01:59:35   It is so freaking cool.

01:59:37   I loved it.

01:59:39   Again, I was predisposed to enjoy this

01:59:42   because I was getting a little bit of like,

01:59:45   not early access in the strictest sense,

01:59:47   but you know, not a lot of people can just roll up

01:59:49   to a dealer and get this kind of treatment.

01:59:51   It was very kind of Shaheen and Peebles to do this for me.

01:59:54   But I loved it.

01:59:57   And I didn't, I felt like I was so overwhelmed

02:00:00   by the whole experience.

02:00:02   It was just, you know, it was a guy showing me around.

02:00:05   He was super awesome, but it was a guy showing me around.

02:00:07   Like there was nothing that should have been overwhelming,

02:00:09   but I was just bowled over by the whole thing.

02:00:12   And when it got to the part of the tour where, you know,

02:00:15   I was looking at the truck and messing with it,

02:00:18   it is so cool and so well thought out.

02:00:21   Now, again, I don't really care for pickups.

02:00:24   I think they're silly in most circumstances.

02:00:26   There are definitely people that use them

02:00:27   and actually put things in the bed from time to time.

02:00:30   But so many times I feel like pickup trucks

02:00:33   are more of look at me and my sweet truck

02:00:36   than they are I need a utility vehicle

02:00:39   with which to transport things in the bed of this truck.

02:00:42   You know what I mean?

02:00:43   - Oh yeah, it's very much a like,

02:00:45   I want a large thing to show off my largeness kind of.

02:00:49   - Yeah, exactly.

02:00:50   - Far be it from me to complain about someone buying a thing

02:00:53   just 'cause they like it,

02:00:54   that defines my entire computer hobby, right?

02:00:57   But that is why the vast, vast, vast majority

02:01:01   of pickup trucks are purchased in the United States.

02:01:03   And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it.

02:01:04   You want a pickup truck?

02:01:06   We have them and we'll sell them to you.

02:01:07   And there's no reason you need to justify that

02:01:09   other than saying, "I like pickup trucks."

02:01:11   Why do I have a stupid computer?

02:01:12   I like big, fancy computers.

02:01:14   That's the only reason.

02:01:16   I get a little bit angry when someone says,

02:01:17   "Oh, I got this pickup truck 'cause it's really practical."

02:01:19   And it's like, "No, come on, just say you like trucks."

02:01:22   Like, it's fine.

02:01:23   Nothing wrong with liking trucks like other than the fact that you know

02:01:26   they're killing pedestrians because they keep getting taller and taller like that is wrong with it and you should think about that and

02:01:29   And Rivian is probably destroying the roads because it weighs 6,000 pounds or whatever, but you know, hey

02:01:34   No co2 emissions. So give a thumbs up there

02:01:36   Anyway relocated

02:01:40   Right exactly but reduced overall net net, right?

02:01:43   But like yeah

02:01:44   Like if you don't understand if you're coming from like if you're listening to us in Europe or maybe in Canada

02:01:48   You don't understand like the Ford F-150 has at various times to the best-selling vehicle in America for consumers, right?

02:01:55   So many people buy pickup trucks here and there's lots of weird cultural reasons for doing that and people just like trucks or whatever

02:02:01   but but practically speaking just like my stupid Mac Pro is not practical in any sense of the world and is worse than if I

02:02:07   Had gotten a computer that is more appropriate to my needs

02:02:10   People buy pickup trucks and then try to use them like minivans and so you end up with these monstrous vehicles

02:02:16   They're incredibly impractical and inconvenient and they have this huge amount of car before this tiny little

02:02:22   Stupid bed at the end and they jack the thing up and it's just like this doesn't make any practical sense whatsoever

02:02:29   But again aside from the pedestrian killing and and the gas mileage and the road damage

02:02:34   people just like trucks and so like if you think oh, well, you know, it's a pickup truck, but only few people buy them

02:02:42   It's the default car in America essentially just like the default car in many European cities

02:02:47   It's like a small, you know, a tiny little hatchback that Americans can't even fit inside

02:02:50   The default vehicle in many places in America is a pickup truck. And so that's why Rivian is relevant

02:02:56   That's why we're even talking about this because it is not an obscure sideshow like pickup trucks are the show in America

02:03:02   And well and also like this is a major

02:03:04   Market segment that is to date

02:03:07   Unserved by electric vehicles, but that's why like it's such a I know there's some coming out and or whatever

02:03:12   but like--

02:03:13   - The Ford Lightning is the other big one

02:03:14   in the conversation here, which is no joke,

02:03:16   'cause that the Ford F-150, the Ford Lightning,

02:03:19   Ford is selling as many of those as they can make.

02:03:21   - Right, but the reason this is a big deal is like,

02:03:24   we're trying to get electrification of vehicles

02:03:26   as much as we can, and there's been these segments

02:03:29   where people will say like, "I can't," quote,

02:03:32   "I can't buy electric because I have need X, Y, and Z."

02:03:37   And once you get good electric pickups,

02:03:40   that solves a lot of those previously unsolved needs.

02:03:43   And that gets us closer to major vehicle electrification.

02:03:47   And that's a very, very good thing.

02:03:49   - Yeah, so I spent a little time walking around

02:03:53   the outside of the vehicle with guidance.

02:03:56   So press this, look at this, check this out,

02:03:58   et cetera, et cetera.

02:03:59   So the picture that's in the show notes

02:04:00   that I've shown Marco and John is me standing on the,

02:04:04   what do they call this?

02:04:05   - The gear tunnel. - The gear tunnel.

02:04:07   - Yeah, so the gear tunnel,

02:04:08   if you're sitting in the back seat,

02:04:10   Well, behind your back, there's basically empty space.

02:04:13   And so with the Rivian, with the R1T,

02:04:16   which is the actual name of this model,

02:04:19   there's a door on either side

02:04:21   and you can store a bunch of gear,

02:04:24   whatever it may be or luggage or what have you

02:04:25   in this tunnel, this gear tunnel.

02:04:27   And the doors that flop down when you open them up,

02:04:30   they support like 250 pounds of weight in and of themselves.

02:04:33   Now you wouldn't drive down the road this way,

02:04:35   because that'd be extremely dangerous.

02:04:36   It's way outside the edge of the body of the truck.

02:04:40   But just as a step, it was perfectly legitimate.

02:04:43   And so again, the super nice guy who was showing me around,

02:04:47   his name is Peebles, and he said,

02:04:48   "Okay, here, stand here, give me your phone.

02:04:49   "I'm gonna take a picture of you."

02:04:51   I was like, "Yes, yes, let's do that."

02:04:52   So that's the picture that I'm showing you.

02:04:55   But so much about the Rivian,

02:04:57   it did not strike me as a beta test kind of vehicle.

02:05:01   Like so many things were really, really well thought out.

02:05:05   Like the button to release the tailgate,

02:05:07   which is to say, you know, the thing that closes up in the back of the truck.

02:05:12   It's a very subtle button that's on the, like, I guess the top side rail of the bed of the

02:05:21   truck in our little Super Secret Private channel.

02:05:23   I've just dropped a few more pictures for you guys privately.

02:05:26   And you can see the button very, very faintly on the left-hand side of that picture behind

02:05:31   like a little tie-down mount.

02:05:34   And you press that and then the tailgate lowers.

02:05:37   And then the way they've set up the tailgate is such that there's like another panel that

02:05:42   slides down that kind of lands in between the main bed and the tailgate to kind of bridge

02:05:47   the gap.

02:05:48   So if you have a piece of like lumber or what have you that's longer than the very, very

02:05:52   short bed, then it'll sit cleanly on the area between the bed, well that in between area

02:06:01   and the tailgate itself.

02:06:02   It's a very hard thing to describe verbally, but hopefully that makes some amount of sense.

02:06:05   And by the way, you mentioned the very, very short bed.

02:06:07   Why is the bed very, very short?

02:06:08   Well, because Rivian knows that despite the fact that people want a truck, what they need

02:06:13   is a car.

02:06:15   And so this thing has four doors, a front seat, and a back seat big enough for big people,

02:06:20   and there's not too much room left for a bed.

02:06:23   And yeah, they could put a full-size bed in there, but now the vehicle would be so long

02:06:26   that people wouldn't be able to park it anywhere, and so they have to do what everyone has done,

02:06:29   which is basically make a gigantic, jacked up luxury sedan for $80,000 and put a thing

02:06:35   on the back that's big enough so that people see it's recognizable in a truck and distract

02:06:39   them from the tiny little bed in the back by putting a huge grill on the front and knobby

02:06:43   tires and, you know, making the thing be 70 feet off the ground.

02:06:47   Don't bother looking at the bed that's only four feet long.

02:06:49   Hey, you can lower the tailgate and now you can fit a four bay piece of plywood in it

02:06:54   as long as you don't mind the fact that it's sticking four feet out of the back of your

02:06:56   truck.

02:06:57   I will say, all of that stuff does serve purposes, though.

02:07:00   They're just specialized.

02:07:01   For instance, my beach sand driving vehicle needs--

02:07:05   this would be amazing, because it has better ground clearance

02:07:09   and way better off-roading capabilities than almost

02:07:12   every vehicle out there.

02:07:13   But you would get the R1S.

02:07:14   They make an SUV version of this, which doesn't even

02:07:17   pretend it's a SUV, right?

02:07:19   And it's like, OK.

02:07:20   Well, Make is generous.

02:07:21   They advertise the ability to make one.

02:07:23   I don't know how many have actually gotten into customer

02:07:26   sands.

02:07:26   But the great thing about it is that the R1S is basically the R1T without pretending to be a pickup.

02:07:31   So the part that is the bed, it's like, why don't we just make that the rest of the inside of it?

02:07:35   Like it's the same platform and the platform is so much better suited to being an SUV because it's clearly not particularly well suited to being a pickup truck.

02:07:43   But people don't really want a pickup truck. They just want to say they own one, but they want a sedan that's really jacked.

02:07:47   Anyway, again, I'm not I'm not faulting people for this.

02:07:50   I'm just saying that it's like it's been interesting to watch the bed portion portion of pickup trucks shrink and shrink and shrink to the

02:07:57   Oh, yeah, it is just barely big enough so you can make sure that people still know it's a pickup truck

02:08:02   You know, it's true and in the r1s

02:08:04   According to people's is getting delivered for but not a ton of them at this point as far as I think pretty sure that's what

02:08:11   He said I might have that wrong but coming back to the experience I had with it

02:08:14   So in the bed on the left-hand side if you're looking at the back of the car, you know

02:08:18   you're standing behind the car, you're looking in the back of it. On the left-hand side,

02:08:20   there's a panel that has like an air pump so you can inflate and deflate not only the tires on the truck itself,

02:08:26   but if you had like a motorcycle or bicycle or something like that, you can you can

02:08:30   inflate or deflate the tires with the onboard air pump, which also has a pressure gauge on it, which is super cool.

02:08:37   And then again, I haven't put this in the chat room. I probably won't bother putting this in the show notes. But

02:08:41   for the two of you guys, if you look underneath the air pump, it's hard to see but there's like two

02:08:47   round wrecked areas that if you look very closely have little like padlock

02:08:52   Logos on them and what those are and there's matching ones on the other side

02:08:56   they give you these special cables like really really strong cables like bike lock kind of cables and

02:09:03   You can put a spare and they have like special ends on them and you stick the ends into these little

02:09:10   portholes that have these padlock logos on them.

02:09:13   And when the truck locks, it locks those cables in place.

02:09:18   And when the truck unlocks, you can yank those cables

02:09:21   right out and remove your bicycle, motorcycle,

02:09:23   whatever the case, or whatever it is you have locked

02:09:25   in the back.

02:09:26   And it was such a satisfying feeling,

02:09:29   the little chink to put it in and take it out.

02:09:32   - There's a Kensington lock if you remember those.

02:09:33   The Kensington lock, remember like all Macs

02:09:35   you start to come with this little thing?

02:09:36   Like what is this all for?

02:09:37   That's for the Kensington lock.

02:09:38   - Yeah.

02:09:39   it's much fancier but yet the same basic idea on the other side i didn't send you

02:09:42   this picture of any of the other side had to you know standard u_s_ house

02:09:46   outlets you know hundred twenty volt outlets just hanging out

02:09:49   uh... on the inside it has this has been publicized as a bluetooth speaker that

02:09:54   lives under the center console

02:09:55   it has uh... flashlight the you can actually see in the picture that i

02:09:59   shared with everyone

02:10:00   there's a flashlight in the doors here with the the side of the door

02:10:04   of the uh... driver side door that if i'm if i recall correctly is made out of

02:10:07   an individual cell of the main battery unit, which is pretty neat. The inside, I honestly,

02:10:14   one of my only regrets in the time I spent with the car is I didn't really mess with

02:10:18   the infotainment at all. Like, I could tell you the stereo sounded really good to me,

02:10:22   but I didn't spend any time, like, pointing and clicking and scrolling and whatnot, which

02:10:26   I regret. I should have done that to see if the lag was real bad, but I just, I really

02:10:30   wanted to spend time driving the car. If you'll notice, again, for the two of you guys that

02:10:35   I put a picture of like the dashboard, which to my eyes,

02:10:40   had very, very big Tesla energy in terms of the,

02:10:43   "Oh, there's a car over here,

02:10:44   there's a car over there, et cetera."

02:10:46   It looks very, very similar to me.

02:10:48   But what's cool about this is it has different ride heights

02:10:51   and different modes, and so you can lower

02:10:53   and raise the truck while you're in the truck,

02:10:55   which is kind of neat.

02:10:56   But I don't know the number as to how many bazillion pounds

02:11:00   this thing weighs, but I'm sure it's about 11 trillion pounds.

02:11:04   Did you know, I think I'm mostly talking to Marco here, did you know that electric vehicles

02:11:09   can kind of overcome the fact that they weigh more than the entire planet Earth? And can

02:11:14   even even electric vehicles this large can actually be relatively sprightly?

02:11:18   I in fact did know that. Did you? It turns out I've been driving around a giant heavy

02:11:23   brick of batteries for the last five years. And I've also greatly enjoyed it.

02:11:30   So the funny thing is, so obviously it's an automatic as almost every electrical electric

02:11:33   vehicle is. But there were a couple times I did a standing start and I would stand on the brake

02:11:41   and then I would move my right foot over to the gas and floor it. And it's like getting shot out

02:11:46   of a cannon. I don't care how many times, and I've driven electric cars, I don't know, 15-20 times in

02:11:51   my life. Like this is not the first time I've driven an electric car. It's the first time I've

02:11:54   driven a Rivian, but not the first time that I've driven an electric car. And I'm not just

02:11:58   driven Tesla's, although I've driven many Tesla's, it's still just intoxicating every time. And doing

02:12:04   it in a truck that weighs more than my house, like it is bending the laws of physics, how fast this

02:12:13   thing is. But at one point right before we were done, people said, "No, okay, okay, just trust me on this

02:12:19   one. This time I want you to use your left foot on the brake, stand on the brake, stand on the gas, and

02:12:25   and then pop your left foot off the brake.

02:12:26   You know, I think we would call this power braking

02:12:28   back in the day if I'm not mistaken.

02:12:29   But basically, stand on both pedals

02:12:31   and then pop your left foot off the brake.

02:12:34   I got shot out of a cannon, my dudes.

02:12:37   Like, I thought just sidestepping onto the gas was fast.

02:12:40   Oh no, I got shot out of a frickin' cannon

02:12:44   in this 18 gazillion pound pickup truck.

02:12:47   It was unreal how fast this thing was.

02:12:50   - Do you wanna guess at the weight, by the way?

02:12:51   I looked it up 'cause I was wrong in my humorous estimate

02:12:54   when I was prattling out about this thing before.

02:12:56   - 7,000 pounds.

02:12:58   - Yeah, it's 7,148 pounds according to Wikipedia.

02:13:01   - Oh, look at me, that was pretty good.

02:13:02   - I found another article that said it's like 8,000

02:13:03   'cause it's got a huge battery pack in there.

02:13:06   I think it's 180 kilowatt hours for the big battery.

02:13:09   That's, I mean, it's like almost twice as big

02:13:11   as Marco's battery.

02:13:11   I mean, 'cause it's a truck,

02:13:13   it's supposed to be able to haul big things,

02:13:15   it is itself is heavy,

02:13:16   and I think the 060 is four seconds-ish,

02:13:18   so that's what you were feeling there, Casey.

02:13:20   - Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was bananas.

02:13:22   And also, you know, I took it on an interstate or highway or freeway, whatever your local parlance is, and I didn't, I wasn't being ridiculous,

02:13:30   but you know, on the off-ramp or the on-ramp, this thing handled surprisingly well.

02:13:34   And yes, I know it's got a huge ass amount of weight, way low in the car, like I get that, but I,

02:13:38   if I'm not mistaken, they do some like really aggressive auto leveling with the suspension to keep it from feeling like you're about to roll over.

02:13:45   It was stunning how well this thing handled. Again, given the fact that it's a pickup, I'm grading on a curve,

02:13:52   I'll tell you right now I'm grading on a curve, but you know, it's a pickup truck. It's in the air

02:13:55   It's it weighs 11 zillion pounds

02:13:58   It's it's stunning that this thing handled or it went as quickly as it did the stereo sounded great

02:14:03   I mean, I'm not an audiophile really but it sounded surprisingly good because you know, I'm still kovat paranoid

02:14:11   You know when we were riding around I insisted on having the windows open and and even still the stereo sounded great

02:14:17   It's quiet. I mean because it's an electric like this thing was so nice and and and there's so many really nice touches that were

02:14:25   That were clearly well designed

02:14:27   like all this the the way the buttons for like the tailgate things are hidden and they're satisfying to click and the and

02:14:34   The way the tailgate flops down you have that little intermediary thing that comes down automatically like so much of it was so well done

02:14:41   I would absolutely buy one of these tomorrow if I was looking to get rid of my car and had a way more money to

02:14:47   spend on a car than I actually do. And they were available, which none of those things

02:14:52   were true. And if you could actually get it tomorrow,

02:14:54   yeah, exactly. Nobody can. Holy cow.

02:14:56   Quinn Nelson got his. It's possible if you pre-ordered it back in the day.

02:14:59   Yeah, I mean, it's possible. Predictably, I've seen about a bazillion.

02:15:02   I watch car review videos all the time, so I've seen a bazillion reviews, reviews, everything

02:15:07   you can imagine on this site, like almost every inch of it. But one of the new videos

02:15:11   that came out recently that I think is actually relevant to wondering what the deal is with

02:15:14   is from the, what is it called, the Monroe channel.

02:15:17   They take up our cars and talk about how much they cost

02:15:20   to manufacture and what techniques they use.

02:15:22   They spend a lot of time on Tesla because Tesla

02:15:24   obviously does lots of things very differently

02:15:26   than traditional car makers and it's fascinating

02:15:27   for these veterans of the car industry to look at

02:15:29   how Tesla does things and scratch their head

02:15:31   and be impressed by some things and horrified by other.

02:15:34   Anyway, they took apart the instrument panel

02:15:36   of the Rivian R1T recently in a video.

02:15:38   We'll put a link in the show notes.

02:15:40   And it's fun looking at a new car company, Rivian,

02:15:45   with its very first car.

02:15:46   Yes, it's electric,

02:15:47   but we're looking at the instrument panel here,

02:15:48   so it shouldn't be that much different.

02:15:50   It's got a screen on it and stuff,

02:15:51   but we're not looking at the drive train, right?

02:15:53   What does the instrument panel look like?

02:15:55   And they constantly reference Tesla,

02:15:56   which is their other oddball,

02:15:57   which is like a brand new car company,

02:15:59   doing cars in an unconventional way.

02:16:01   The most interesting thing that I found

02:16:02   was when they were pulling it apart,

02:16:03   they were comparing it to how Tesla constructed stuff.

02:16:06   Obviously, they're talking about, oh, you know,

02:16:08   they probably used some expensive materials,

02:16:10   They're probably losing money on this.

02:16:11   They got a little bit fancy or whatever.

02:16:13   But one of the things I talk about is the,

02:16:15   like the top of the instrument panel.

02:16:17   Like if you put your hand right on the dashboard,

02:16:18   that piece, right?

02:16:20   They peel that piece off and they say,

02:16:23   so there's an industry standard for most things

02:16:26   in the auto industry that you have to have a fastener

02:16:28   every 150 millimeters or something for panels like this.

02:16:33   And, but like on the Tesla, on the Model S,

02:16:36   there's like five screws for that entire piece, right?

02:16:38   And what the theory was of the people who were taking this part is that Rivian hired

02:16:43   a lot of people from the traditional automotive industry, like poached people from Ford, Chrysler,

02:16:48   or all the other, you know, Honda, whatever.

02:16:51   People in the industry said, "Hey, you come to this company, we're going to make a new

02:16:54   cool electric pickup truck."

02:16:56   And those people, because they've been in the industry so long, were just going to be

02:16:59   like, "Oh yeah, fastener every 150 million years."

02:17:00   That's how you build a car, without really questioning it.

02:17:04   Whereas Tesla was not burdened by that and said, "But why do you need a fastener every

02:17:08   50 million years for this piece,

02:17:09   like the top of your dashboard,

02:17:11   that's like it's not a structural member,

02:17:13   why do we need to have so many things?

02:17:14   So the Rivian has--

02:17:15   - Is it for NVH?

02:17:16   - No, I mean, what they were saying is like,

02:17:20   if you dig into this and say,

02:17:22   who came up with that rule, why is that there?

02:17:23   You just keep asking down the chain, down the chain,

02:17:25   and eventually you realize no one actually

02:17:26   either knows or remembers why that's there.

02:17:28   It just becomes part of the, you know,

02:17:30   the lore of being a parts manufacturer

02:17:32   for the auto industry.

02:17:33   That it's like, eh, I don't know if you really need it.

02:17:36   And they were saying like when you're a parts maker,

02:17:38   It's kind of annoying because you'll push back and say,

02:17:41   do we need to do this?

02:17:42   And say, oh yeah, it's part of the spec.

02:17:43   And you'll say, but why?

02:17:45   And they're like, I don't have a reason

02:17:46   it's just part of the spec.

02:17:47   But then you'll be like, well,

02:17:48   that part's gonna be too expensive then.

02:17:49   So you'll just willfully ignore the spec

02:17:51   and do it in a more sane way and just not say anything.

02:17:55   And they will silently accept your non-spec compliant thing

02:18:00   until unless there's a problem.

02:18:02   Then they'll say, oh, you just didn't follow the spec.

02:18:03   But anyway, Tesla chose not to put those screws in there.

02:18:07   And it's probably fine, right?

02:18:09   But you can tell based on how the thing is constructed

02:18:12   in the Rivian that there are more people

02:18:13   from the traditional audio and auto industry

02:18:15   in this company because of things like how closely spaced

02:18:19   the fasteners are because that's just the way you do things.

02:18:22   I don't know which one of those things is better or worse,

02:18:24   but it's fascinating to be able to sort of

02:18:26   read the signature of the makers by tearing it apart

02:18:29   and looking at how it was constructed.

02:18:32   In both cases, especially early Tesla

02:18:34   and also these Rivians, there's a little bit

02:18:36   of a kind of a handcrafted nature to it.

02:18:38   Like I know what the inside of a lot of Honda's look like.

02:18:41   And you know, Honda's into, oh, does it's like,

02:18:44   how, you know, how inexpensive, how few pieces,

02:18:47   how reliable, like it's just honed down

02:18:49   to the bare essence of like,

02:18:51   if I can do something with one piece of plastic

02:18:53   instead of two, I'm gonna do it.

02:18:55   I'm gonna refine this arrangement over the course

02:18:57   of 50 years to try to get it to be 3 cents cheaper, right?

02:19:00   Or 5% stiffer or whatever, like just so ruthlessly minimal.

02:19:06   And these things, it's like, it's an $80,000 electric truck.

02:19:09   I'm not quite sure how to do it,

02:19:10   but let's just throw materials at it.

02:19:12   Let's use this expensive exotic material.

02:19:14   Let's put these things on it.

02:19:15   Let's put these five screws, let's do this thing.

02:19:16   And in other places, they'll end up saying,

02:19:18   we didn't know how to do this,

02:19:19   so we have these four air ducts.

02:19:20   How do we hold them together?

02:19:22   How about we just drill a hole in them,

02:19:23   put a wing nut on there and just twist it together?

02:19:25   Eh, that'll do it, ship it, right?

02:19:27   There's so much of that mixed in.

02:19:28   Like, the inside of the Rivian and the inside of Teslas

02:19:31   do not look like the inside of established car brands.

02:19:35   especially they don't look at the inside of cars that cost you know $20,000 right because

02:19:39   you know in the end these are very expensive vehicles and part of that expense is yeah they

02:19:43   use exotic parts and there's a big battery in there but also part of that expense is we didn't

02:19:47   have the time or the research budget to figure out how to make this car economically so we're

02:19:52   going to sell it to you for 80 grand and uh there you know we we did the company would have gone out

02:19:58   of business if we had spent the next 20 years figuring out how to manufacture this car for

02:20:02   for $10,000 less, so we're not,

02:20:03   and we'll just pass the cost on to you.

02:20:05   - Well, that being said,

02:20:06   and I think this particular example

02:20:09   was something like 80 grand.

02:20:11   There is no way this truck should cost 80 grand.

02:20:13   It should cost easily 100 to 110, from what I could tell.

02:20:18   It was, maybe I'm just,

02:20:20   I've been price reset by Tesla.

02:20:25   - It might cost that much.

02:20:26   Did you ask someone how many options were on the car

02:20:28   that you were looking at?

02:20:28   - No, I asked him, "How much is this one?"

02:20:31   and I am pretty sure he said like 80-ish.

02:20:33   Maybe even been a little bit less.

02:20:34   - Well then you really can't get it in time soon.

02:20:36   Well I'll tell you what though,

02:20:37   I have good news for you Casey.

02:20:38   If you want the Rivian to cost more,

02:20:40   go try to buy one now because here I'll send you one.

02:20:44   Here's one right in Richmond, right near you Casey.

02:20:47   (laughing)

02:20:48   It's only $141,000 for a used R1T.

02:20:53   - My goodness, I mean it,

02:20:58   honestly I think this thing should cost closer

02:21:01   to that, although I wouldn't go quite that far.

02:21:03   But no, it was amazing.

02:21:05   Like the frunk was huge, it had a drain spigot or spout

02:21:08   or whatever so you could make it a cooler

02:21:10   and then just drain it at the end of the day.

02:21:12   Like a lot of this stuff,

02:21:12   it was just really well thought out.

02:21:14   It was very comfortable on the inside.

02:21:17   Some of the stuff was a little bit silly,

02:21:19   like you can't just twist the air vents,

02:21:22   you have to go into the computer and ask it where,

02:21:25   oh, I wanna point it right here and then--

02:21:27   - 'Cause they want them to be controlled

02:21:28   by the touchscreen, but if they can be controlled

02:21:29   by the touch screen, you can't have manual stateful controls.

02:21:32   - Yeah, and so that's like,

02:21:34   the stuff like that is a little bit, eh, whatever.

02:21:36   But by and large, I freaking love this thing.

02:21:39   If I had my druthers, I would have already put in a deposit

02:21:42   for an R1S to replace Erin's Volvo one day.

02:21:46   But I don't know that she would be quite as keen

02:21:48   on this idea as I am, but I loved it.

02:21:52   Like, again, I only spent like 20 minutes with it,

02:21:55   but I can think of no reservations.

02:21:57   Like if I was spending somebody else's money,

02:21:59   I would do it tomorrow.

02:22:01   Like again, you can't get 'em.

02:22:03   It's impossible to get 'em.

02:22:04   I wouldn't get a white one.

02:22:05   There's a couple of blues that were really lovely.

02:22:07   There was like a deep, deep gray.

02:22:08   I wanna say it was called the Granite or something

02:22:10   that was really, really nice.

02:22:12   They had a bunch of them there.

02:22:14   - Ooh, there's a yellow one.

02:22:15   - Yeah, I think there is a yellow one.

02:22:17   - I can get it right now for only $135,000 in Connecticut.

02:22:20   - There you go.

02:22:21   No, there's-- - Lightly used.

02:22:22   - I'm telling you, Marco,

02:22:23   you would really, really like this thing.

02:22:26   Like it was amazing.

02:22:27   Apparently they're getting, like I asked Peebles and the two guys that he was working with

02:22:31   at the time, the other two I think were more on the delivery side of things, and they said

02:22:36   they're getting trucks like every day and they're delivering them to North Carolina,

02:22:39   to Virginia, I think as far up as Maryland.

02:22:43   Of course they're flatbedding them on internal combustion flatbeds because they're going

02:22:47   to like North Carolina and stuff and they don't want to just drive the truck because

02:22:51   then you're getting a truck with like 300 miles on the clock.

02:22:54   But anyways, but no, they're getting them daily,

02:22:57   from what I understand.

02:22:58   And it was such a cool experience

02:23:01   and it was so kind of them to spend an hour with me,

02:23:04   you know, who they don't, nobody cares who I am,

02:23:07   but nevertheless, they spent an hour with me

02:23:09   and never were upset about it,

02:23:11   never check their watches, wondering when it would be done.

02:23:13   Like it was such a lovely experience

02:23:16   and the truck was so nice.

02:23:18   I would absolutely buy one tomorrow

02:23:20   if I thought I could get away with it.

02:23:22   It was so great.

02:23:23   Looking at their configurator, it's kind of like when you add RAM to the Mac.

02:23:26   So you go to the configurator and it comes with 8 gigs of RAM.

02:23:30   16 gigs of RAM, add $400.

02:23:31   24 gigs of RAM, add $600 or whatever.

02:23:35   Well so you go to the Rivian and you've got the standard battery pack.

02:23:37   And if you want the large packets, add $6,000.

02:23:40   And if you want the max packets, add $16,000.

02:23:42   If you're wondering why these cars cost so much money, it's not because they're using

02:23:45   exotic materials and fancy stuff on the inside, it's because they have a huge battery in it

02:23:50   and those batteries are really expensive.

02:23:51   So yeah, add $16,000, that's a hell of an option.

02:23:54   Still not Porsche option because probably $16,000

02:23:56   gets you like the cool black paint on the Porsche,

02:23:58   but you know.

02:24:00   - Yeah. - Different strokes.

02:24:01   [door closes]

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