485: This Is Casey Actual


00:00:00   We have a slightly different live stream set up this time.

00:00:04   I didn't even check that, let me see.

00:00:06   We're still streaming to the audio channel, basically,

00:00:09   like the Icecast MP3 server.

00:00:11   Still streaming to that, but our wonderful application

00:00:15   I use over here, Audio Hijack, a while back added support

00:00:18   to also stream to RTMP, RTSP,

00:00:23   whatever the streaming protocols are

00:00:25   that you can stream to Twitch and stuff,

00:00:27   or YouTube Live or whatever else.

00:00:28   And so they have this thing.

00:00:30   So I figured for high volume WWDC season,

00:00:35   this would be a good opportunity to test out one of these.

00:00:38   And between YouTube Live and Twitch,

00:00:43   the reason I went with Twitch is because,

00:00:45   to the best of my knowledge, YouTube Live

00:00:48   requires you to create the video entry in their CMS

00:00:51   before you can stream.

00:00:53   And you have to do that each time.

00:00:54   You create a new one each time.

00:00:56   Whereas Twitch, you just have a channel,

00:00:57   and you can just put in your stream key

00:01:00   as the authentication token in the streaming app,

00:01:02   and you can just hit go whenever you want,

00:01:04   and you don't have to do a new setup each episode

00:01:07   or each time you wanna hit go.

00:01:09   So for my purposes, Twitch was way easier for this purpose,

00:01:12   even though we don't actually intend to use Twitch

00:01:17   like as a major platform for any other reason,

00:01:20   but for this particular purpose, it seemed to go well there.

00:01:24   So I do intend to use this setup next week

00:01:27   during WVDC to provide extra capacity,

00:01:30   which is the whole reason I did it in the first place.

00:01:33   Because typically WVDC shows usually really max out

00:01:36   our live stream server and some people can't get through

00:01:39   or it drops the connection or something.

00:01:40   So the Twitch version should be much more reliable.

00:01:43   I should note also this is an audio only stream.

00:01:46   It's generating some kind of like basic visualization.

00:01:49   Also that's also a built in feature of AudioHijack,

00:01:52   but it's not showing our faces or anything.

00:01:54   So you're not missing like a video version of it.

00:01:56   Yeah, so anyway, so I'm gonna be doing this next week,

00:01:58   and if this actually proves to be useful,

00:02:02   maybe we'll do more of it in the future.

00:02:05   But it'll at least be this week and next week.

00:02:07   - All right, let's do some follow-up,

00:02:11   'cause we probably have a big episode.

00:02:12   I wanted to briefly mention and say thank you

00:02:15   to those who signed up for FastMail using my referral,

00:02:20   because this is the first of the month,

00:02:21   and that's when FastMail reports in

00:02:23   on your referral earnings, and I am happy to say

00:02:25   I now have a year of free Fast Mail, baby, woo!

00:02:28   I'm excited, so.

00:02:29   - Pretty soon you'll have that big payout

00:02:30   that you'll be like, oh, now I gotta have them pay me out

00:02:32   'cause it's too much, I'll never use it in 100 years.

00:02:35   - If I could only be so lucky.

00:02:36   - Oh, that should be how we fund your XDR,

00:02:39   even though, I mean, I know that joke's kind of over

00:02:41   because you got the other monitor,

00:02:43   but it would be kind of a great way, you know,

00:02:46   to somehow to accumulate $5,000 of

00:02:51   referral credit on Fast Mail.

00:02:53   - That would be amazing, so.

00:02:54   - I'm just gonna get Fastmount to be a sponsor again.

00:02:56   - That would also be a much easier route.

00:02:58   - I feel like when somebody's a sponsor,

00:03:00   that's like your salary,

00:03:02   like you're getting paid to do your job,

00:03:03   whereas affiliate money feels like free money.

00:03:06   It feels like fun money, you know?

00:03:08   - Yep, I agree with that. - Like I wasn't expecting,

00:03:09   I didn't do anything for this,

00:03:10   I just arrived in my inbox.

00:03:13   - Indeed, and so I arrived in my inbox this morning

00:03:15   that I got $63.50 in referral cash,

00:03:19   so that means I have next year,

00:03:22   'cause I've already paid for this year,

00:03:23   I have next year for free. So keep it coming, folks. That's www.caseylist.com/fastmail

00:03:30   is a redirect to my referral page if you are interested. And all self-serving plugging

00:03:37   aside, I am still extremely happy with Fastmail. I'm very glad that I switched. I have been

00:03:42   really pleased with it. And that is the truth. I'm not saying that because I've been instructed

00:03:46   to. I'm not saying that because I just want free service. That really honestly is the

00:03:50   truth. So if you're interested at all.

00:03:53   towards the XDR. Something like that. Three dollars at a time. Three bucks at a

00:03:57   time, maybe. But I really have been enjoying it. And you know, even if I don't,

00:04:02   even if I can't afford an XDR, I do still have this LG 5K to my right-hand side

00:04:07   and it would be much nicer if it was a second, if it was a second studio display.

00:04:11   So, you know, you could always do that. So ATP.FM/join and caselist.com/fastmail.

00:04:17   All the referrals. We got some extremely important feedback from a bunch of

00:04:21   different people so I can't cite just one. This is I think mostly for Marco

00:04:26   actually. The Price is Right is available for free, at least in the States,

00:04:30   potentially elsewhere, on Pluto TV, which is something I'd never heard of.

00:04:35   No sign up is required, or so we were told. I did not confirm this.

00:04:39   And it is all the Bob Barker era, which honestly I don't know how well that

00:04:44   holds up at this point, but nevertheless it is what is probably considered to be

00:04:48   the golden age of Price is Right.

00:04:51   So, should Adam fall under the weather again,

00:04:54   you can go to Pluto.tv and you can check out

00:04:58   the Price is Right.

00:04:59   - But it's got ads on it, right?

00:05:01   And it doesn't have period specific ads,

00:05:03   which would be cool.

00:05:04   - That would be very cool. - Well, slightly more cool.

00:05:06   Instead, it's got modern ads, which are not cool.

00:05:09   - Yeah, and it has modern, I think,

00:05:11   bargain basement streaming service ads,

00:05:13   which are all, it's like, these are not things

00:05:16   that are fun or not able to watch in any way.

00:05:18   Like I said, I actually did go and watch a few minutes of it

00:05:22   and it was interesting.

00:05:24   I didn't know about this entire service, Pluto TV,

00:05:27   and I heard also there's like a Roku channel,

00:05:29   but I think that's just this.

00:05:30   It seemed like there's a few different front ends

00:05:32   that are just all going to this service.

00:05:34   But it was so interesting watching,

00:05:38   'cause what I saw was a version of it that was,

00:05:42   even from before I watched it,

00:05:44   it was like Bob Barker when his hair was still brown,

00:05:46   or at least it was colored brown.

00:05:48   But it was like an old version, I think from the '70s,

00:05:52   before my time, and of course he was being kind of a jerk

00:05:57   to the contestants, and it was like,

00:05:58   oh yeah, I'm not sure how well this holds up.

00:06:01   But it was very entertaining to see.

00:06:03   - All right, we got some relatively long feedback,

00:06:05   but I found it to be absolutely fascinating

00:06:07   from an anonymous person that works

00:06:09   for an Apple Fitness Plus competitor.

00:06:11   And I'm gonna read a lot, but not all of this verbatim,

00:06:15   And again, I just found this to be absolutely fascinating.

00:06:16   So this was with regard to the Apple+ Studio Tour

00:06:19   that I was embittered that wasn't really

00:06:22   a studio tour at all, and how they

00:06:24   go about making these videos.

00:06:26   And so this individual writes, "After taping a show

00:06:29   from the control room comes what is called the line cut.

00:06:33   This line cut is not the show that will be distributed.

00:06:35   It is more like a blueprint, a reference for the editors

00:06:38   to work with.

00:06:38   Some directors even request their audio recorded

00:06:40   as a separate track so they can give directions to the editor,

00:06:43   like "Don't use this camera!" or "Resize this shot!"

00:06:46   It's like having your own private DVD commentary track.

00:06:48   The line cut goes to the assistant editors.

00:06:50   They recreate the cut using the raw footage from the camera cards.

00:06:52   It's a rather automated process, although depending on the show's setup,

00:06:55   sometimes it's done manually.

00:06:57   You want to work with the uncompressed footage and no color correction,

00:07:00   since there will be a proper color pass once the cut is locked.

00:07:02   The line cut is both compressed and has a temporary color filter.

00:07:05   So, once the cut is rebuilt as a multicam project, it goes to the editor.

00:07:08   Why an editor still? Well, like you mentioned in the podcast,

00:07:11   Many times we have to correct mistakes, replacing segments that had to be re-shot or cut around

00:07:15   smaller blunders, but there is a lot more than that.

00:07:18   For instance, even with the best crew, there tends to be a slight delay between the director

00:07:21   calling a camera and the shot actually changing.

00:07:23   This is not a big deal for an award show, but with a workout video, you might have missed

00:07:27   the beginning of a move or the trainer pointing out something that is very important and could

00:07:31   prevent users from injury.

00:07:33   And there's also some creative stuff.

00:07:34   Perhaps the director called a shot and then it turns out that one of the other cameras

00:07:37   found something much better.

00:07:38   The process is more involved than it might seem, and often the show is very different

00:07:42   after it goes through editing.

00:07:44   So I thought that was all fascinating, that even if they're doing kind of a "screw it,

00:07:48   we'll do it live" sort of thing, they still will go back in most cases and re-edit everything

00:07:54   using this kind of quasi-director's commentary as a blueprint, which was super cool.

00:07:58   This is tangentially related—this is Casey talking—this is tangentially related, but

00:08:02   I found it to also be completely wild—

00:08:04   This is Casey talking.

00:08:05   Well, sorry, I didn't want it to sound like—that was a very awkward turn of phrase.

00:08:07   I didn't want it to, we'll fix it in post here.

00:08:10   Demarco, please use a different line for that.

00:08:12   That's your director's commentary right there, baby.

00:08:16   No, I didn't want it, I felt like it sounded

00:08:18   like I was still reading verbatim,

00:08:19   and in an awkward way only I could.

00:08:22   I've ruined everything.

00:08:23   All right, so this was a little tidbit

00:08:26   that I also found interesting that's tangentially related.

00:08:29   I had no idea this was a thing.

00:08:30   So now this is no longer Casey talking,

00:08:32   and this is back to the individual.

00:08:34   - Isn't it?

00:08:34   - Shush, just go with it, just go with it.

00:08:37   - This is Casey Actual.

00:08:39   We all learned the meaning of that from "Ballast Alactica"

00:08:42   I've already forgotten.

00:08:42   - No. - I've never seen it.

00:08:44   - What, you've never seen "Ballast Alactica," what?

00:08:46   - You're gonna have to wait for Casey to come back.

00:08:47   I'm sorry, this is the feedback person.

00:08:50   - I don't understand,

00:08:50   I don't know why you're still surprising me.

00:08:52   I don't know, I'd start to say Casey's seen some stuff,

00:08:56   he's seen things, not like people say.

00:08:58   Never seen "Ballast Alactica," all right, fine.

00:09:00   - By the way, about the remote work thing,

00:09:03   in case you are not familiar with the technology,

00:09:05   it is rather amazing.

00:09:05   Mac Pro, which I use, is in some data center miles away, and you connect to it

00:09:10   via the regular internet using a little terminal, which happens to be an Amulet

00:09:13   Hotkey DXZ4. It is indistinguishable from having a local computer. We live in the

00:09:18   future. So that was all that this person said. This is Casey talking. That was all

00:09:23   this person said, and so I had to figure out what the crap is an Amulet

00:09:28   Hotkey DXZ4. And so of course I went digging about, and I found their

00:09:34   marketing site or whatever, which was very enterprisey and not entirely helpful, but

00:09:39   I eventually got to the following little snippet.

00:09:42   So it's a box, and it's PCOIP, which I presume means, you know, Personal Computer over IP.

00:09:47   And so from their site, the PCOIP host includes USB, audio, and video from the host, and then--excuse

00:09:54   me--encodes USB, audio, and video from the host, and then compresses and encrypts the

00:09:57   data for transmission across standard IP networks to the Xero client.

00:10:01   The Xero Client then decrypts and decompresses the data and delivers it to the desktop monitors

00:10:05   and peripherals.

00:10:06   The Xero Client also passes user-generated USB and audio data to the PCoIP host.

00:10:11   Only the display pixels are sent to the client, so no sensitive data ever reaches the client.

00:10:15   So this is a box that has two network cables, two RJ45 jacks for redundancy purposes, also

00:10:22   available, gentlemen, two SFP jacks, which are fiber connectors.

00:10:27   Just in case someone was bananas enough to use fiber in the home, but who would ever

00:10:30   do that, am I right? It can support, it has four HDMI ports, so it can do four 1920 by 1200 displays,

00:10:37   or two 34 by, excuse me, 3440 by 1440 displays, and it has four USB-A ports for like keyboards and

00:10:45   microphones and things of that nature. So this is a little box that you plug it in your house,

00:10:49   and it's basically like you're using a Mac Pro that literally is miles and miles and miles away,

00:10:55   but it's as though you're sitting in front of it. And I was talking to a couple different people

00:10:59   that do work like this, and they said that in modern times,

00:11:02   it is nearly indistinguishable

00:11:03   from being in front of the computer,

00:11:05   which to me is utterly bananas,

00:11:06   because I'll use VNC to go from the downstairs to the upstairs,

00:11:10   and it is very distinguishable

00:11:11   from sitting in front of the computer.

00:11:13   So I found this to be absolutely fascinating.

00:11:15   Maybe it's just me.

00:11:17   -Did you ever use X Window system

00:11:18   when you were in school, or was that out of fashion

00:11:20   by the time you got there?

00:11:21   -I did some, but not a ton.

00:11:23   And when I did -- Well, so when I think of X Window,

00:11:27   I just think of a graphical user interface like gnome or what was the other one that was popular Katie. Yes. Thank you

00:11:34   I think of that as X windows

00:11:35   But are you talking about like the more traditional definition where you can have like windows running remotely but shown locally

00:11:42   Is that what you mean? Yeah, it's another way to use it's a way to use a GUI on another computer

00:11:47   That's not the one you're sitting in front of you're sitting in front of an X term

00:11:49   But the much more powerful computer that is elsewhere and maybe across the country maybe in a different building is where you're actually running your things

00:11:56   And I mean any I even next step had something similar to this and the I'm not quite sure how X windows does the thing

00:12:03   But the way next used to do things is with display post script

00:12:07   So instead of sending pixel buffers across the wire because we don't really have bandwidth for that back in the day like VNC was slow

00:12:12   Slow or ugly because it would like massively compress everything

00:12:15   I would send the post scripts can post grip is just like a you know

00:12:18   It's programming language

00:12:19   So you could send an ASCII text and it would send the post script commands over to the over to the x term the x term

00:12:23   would run a PostScript engine and execute those.

00:12:26   So it was sort of a, you know, a lossless compression.

00:12:30   Instead, rather than sending the pixels that get rendered,

00:12:32   you send the rendering commands.

00:12:34   I forgot what they call it, an X hosting,

00:12:36   or I forgot what it was called, an X step.

00:12:37   And I think X might've done,

00:12:39   X11 might've done something similar with sending commands,

00:12:41   but honestly, I don't know how it worked.

00:12:42   But anyway, that was, this is what this reminded me of,

00:12:45   like sitting in front of a computer

00:12:46   that's not the big fancy computer

00:12:49   using a bigger fancier computer with a GUI.

00:12:52   But again, there's no local computer involved here.

00:12:56   Like, I mean, I guess strictly speaking,

00:12:57   this amulet hotkey thing is a computer,

00:12:59   but there's no like traditional computer

00:13:03   at your local station.

00:13:04   - I mean, the Xterm was also not really a computer,

00:13:06   but also, you know, they're Turing complete machines

00:13:09   that have networking and do a thing.

00:13:10   It's just that they're very small nowadays.

00:13:12   But yeah, but the Xterms had no, you know,

00:13:15   not much power, no, I don't think it had any local storage.

00:13:18   It just had a big ethernet port in the back

00:13:21   enough compute to do the job they were asked to do.

00:13:24   Yeah, I just thought this was really wild and really cool.

00:13:26   I remember, I've told this story many times on the show, but it just makes me think of

00:13:30   it when you bring up VNC and stuff.

00:13:32   I remember vividly the first time I saw someone use VNC, I was sitting in my dorm room and

00:13:36   a friend from way on the other end of the hallway came into my room and he was like,

00:13:41   "Oh, can I ask you something real quick?"

00:13:43   And then he asked me a question and then he just sat down to chill out for a little bit.

00:13:47   And then all of a sudden he says, "Oh, shoot, I left my music playing in my room.

00:13:50   "Can I use your computer for a second?" I was like, "What? Yeah?" And so he goes to some website that

00:13:57   looked like, I think it was like an IP address or something like that, and you know with a port

00:14:00   number stacked on the end, and all of a sudden he's looking at another computer and I was like, "What

00:14:05   is this magic? What is happening here?" And sure enough he paused the music in his room from my

00:14:11   room and it was amazing. It was like nothing I had ever seen. This was like late in 2000, maybe early

00:14:19   early 2001, something like that.

00:14:20   And I just thought it was the coolest thing

00:14:21   I've ever seen in my life, it was amazing.

00:14:23   - That was the intention, I guarantee you

00:14:24   that was no accident.

00:14:25   Oh, whoops! - Probably not.

00:14:26   - I'm visiting a fellow nerd, I'm a nerd,

00:14:29   and I accidentally left my music playing.

00:14:31   Oh, excuse me, let me show off.

00:14:33   Yeah, that was totally no accident.

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00:16:33   (upbeat music)

00:16:36   - John, you discovered a WWDC in-person info/schedule/stuff

00:16:41   in menu even, and I saw this via Paul Hudson.

00:16:46   Maybe you'd seen it from there or from somewhere else,

00:16:48   but we have a little bit of details

00:16:50   for those that are attending.

00:16:51   - Yeah, this is the lottery that they ran.

00:16:54   Basically, they said, "Hey, do you wanna come to California

00:16:57   "and watch some videos with us?"

00:17:00   And the interesting thing is they asked people to sign up

00:17:03   to enter this lottery, not knowing much more than that,

00:17:05   that you're gonna have to come to California,

00:17:07   you're gonna come to Apple Park, whatever that means.

00:17:10   You have a random chance of doing it.

00:17:12   And we're gonna watch the keynote video,

00:17:15   and I think maybe they said State of the Union,

00:17:16   they said videos, plural.

00:17:17   But now I think the people who won this lottery

00:17:22   and who entered and won this lottery

00:17:24   now started to get their sort of itineraries.

00:17:26   And so a couple of people tweeted pictures of it

00:17:28   in typical Apple fashion.

00:17:30   It's just a bunch of white line art on a black background.

00:17:32   but I'll just go through the steps here.

00:17:35   There's check-in at 7 a.m.,

00:17:38   Apple Developer Open House also at 7 a.m.,

00:17:40   and the locations are interesting.

00:17:41   So the check-in is Apple Park Visitor Center.

00:17:43   We know where that is.

00:17:44   We talked about it in the previous show.

00:17:46   Apple Developer Center is that building

00:17:47   that we thought was gonna be whatever,

00:17:50   Tan Tao Road, I don't remember the name of that thing.

00:17:53   Talked about it in a previous show.

00:17:54   Breakfast is in Apple Park Cafe Max.

00:17:57   So that is the big cafeteria thing

00:17:58   with the two giant glass doors that's in the ring building.

00:18:01   So if you want this lottery,

00:18:03   you are gonna go to the ring building

00:18:04   and you're gonna eat in that big cafeteria thing.

00:18:06   And like we talked about a couple shows back,

00:18:10   some anonymous person was telling us about events

00:18:12   where they had like friends and family come to Apple Park

00:18:14   and they have them basically corralled

00:18:16   into the Cafe Max area and some other adjoining areas

00:18:19   so they could use the bathrooms

00:18:20   that are attached to Cafe Max and everything.

00:18:22   So that's where everyone will be.

00:18:23   Then it says it's time for the keynote at 10 a.m.

00:18:25   and the location for that just says Apple Park.

00:18:28   Who knows what that means?

00:18:29   Are they gonna, again, people keep thinking

00:18:30   they're gonna go in the middle of the ring

00:18:31   There's gonna be a screen set up under the rainbow stage who knows but they will you know breakfast is

00:18:37   Inside the ring so it makes sense that the video watching would be somewhere near there as well

00:18:41   Lunch is back to cafe max

00:18:44   State of the Union again back to Apple Park whatever that means

00:18:47   Meet the teams in cafe max. I don't know

00:18:50   They're gonna have a bunch of engineering teams hanging out of tables and you get to go talk to them

00:18:53   And then there's a bunch of tours all happening at the same time. You can tour Apple Park Hills

00:18:59   You can tour the fitness center area case who would be interested in that get a real tour of the fitness center area

00:19:04   Or you can tour cafe max. I mean you've already been there for like, you know meals and meeting the team

00:19:10   So I guess you can see how they make pizzas and put them in the fancy boxes

00:19:14   Yeah, that kind of seems like the overflow option

00:19:16   That's like you didn't get the other two, you know, so you'll fall back to anyway

00:19:20   And then Apple design awards at 4 30 location listed as Apple Park. This is interesting. So seems like a full day

00:19:26   They have a lot of activities for everyone to do.

00:19:29   - Yeah, this implies to me,

00:19:32   and I'm reading heavily between the lines,

00:19:35   but I think they're trying to keep this as open air

00:19:38   as they reasonably can for the big groups.

00:19:41   'Cause if you think about it,

00:19:43   Cafe Max, like you had mentioned, Jon,

00:19:44   has, from what I've seen, I've never seen it in person,

00:19:47   but from what I've gathered,

00:19:49   those two humongous, humongous, humongous doors

00:19:51   that open incredibly wide and get a ton of airflow,

00:19:53   I would assume, through there.

00:19:55   And plus, doesn't the ring have natural heating and cooling

00:19:59   such that there's a ton of airflow anyway,

00:20:01   or so we were told, something like that?

00:20:02   - Yeah, we should find a picture of this,

00:20:03   'cause we keep saying doors, but they're not doors.

00:20:05   The whole side of the building moves.

00:20:06   It's like a four-story-high piece of glass.

00:20:08   The whole side of the building just opens up,

00:20:10   and it basically becomes a pass-through.

00:20:12   Imagine a section of the ring that only has the roof on it.

00:20:14   It's kinda like that.

00:20:15   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:20:16   And so that, you could claim as quasi-outdoors,

00:20:20   and then they just say Apple Park.

00:20:22   So if it is indeed somewhere in the center of the ring,

00:20:26   well, that's certainly outdoors.

00:20:27   And then, you know, that means everything

00:20:30   is to some reasonable definition outdoors.

00:20:32   And if you're going to do something

00:20:34   where a bunch of people from a bunch of places

00:20:35   are gathering, if it were me,

00:20:37   I would want as much of this to be outside as possible.

00:20:39   And then if you're doing something inside,

00:20:41   it would only be in smaller groups.

00:20:43   Like if you wanted to tour the fitness center,

00:20:45   which is itself presumably a very large space,

00:20:47   but still indoors, you would probably want a subset

00:20:50   of those that are there doing that.

00:20:52   So this seems to me like they're trying to play this

00:20:56   as reasonably and safely as possible.

00:20:59   We'll see what ends up actually happening.

00:21:01   But I mean, I approve in principle

00:21:03   as someone who is still a nervous Ned about COVID stuff

00:21:06   because Michaela can't get her shot yet.

00:21:08   This seems like as good as one can hope.

00:21:11   I don't know, but there's a menu too.

00:21:13   - Yes, that's the most important part.

00:21:15   They're not gonna get box lunches guys.

00:21:16   I guess you're a cafe max and you can get freshly made food

00:21:19   but there's two menus.

00:21:20   I guess it's kind of like a dinner menu

00:21:22   and a breakfast menu.

00:21:23   So here's the most interesting thing

00:21:24   about the dinner menu.

00:21:25   There's lots of options, I'm sure they're all very good,

00:21:26   but they have kind of an all caps

00:21:28   like category above each one.

00:21:30   And the categories, I feel like this is Apple's

00:21:33   sort of stating what they believe

00:21:35   are the major categories of food,

00:21:37   kind of like the six genders.

00:21:39   Here's what they are, right?

00:21:40   The major categories of food are vegan, Italian,

00:21:45   grill, pangea,

00:21:49   - Indian, Pacific Rim, Romana, Latin, and two desserts.

00:21:54   Yeah, so I mean that covers us, the whole world of food.

00:21:57   Vegan, Italian, Grill, Pangaea, Indian, Pacific Rim,

00:22:00   Romana, Latin, dessert, dessert.

00:22:02   I don't think we missed anything, did we?

00:22:03   'Cause Pangaea, like Pangaea is everything.

00:22:05   Like it's a giant mega continent

00:22:07   that included all the other continents,

00:22:08   so technically anything not covered by the other categories

00:22:10   is covered by Pangaea.

00:22:11   - Wait, I'm a little curious though.

00:22:13   The Pangaea option is salmon.

00:22:15   Why would they name the fish dish

00:22:18   after a large landmass?

00:22:20   - I don't know.

00:22:21   I mean, most of the earth was water

00:22:23   when Pangea was around.

00:22:24   You just had the big giant continent

00:22:26   and maybe there was salmon in that water.

00:22:28   And it seems unlikely.

00:22:29   - I mean, I think they're river fish anyway.

00:22:31   I don't know that much about fish, but-

00:22:32   - Yeah, well, they go back and forth.

00:22:34   - But still, it seemed like a weird thing

00:22:35   to have the one seafood dish

00:22:37   be named after a large landmass.

00:22:39   - Yeah, and so the vegan thing is Kung Pao Tofu

00:22:41   and vegetables Italian.

00:22:42   This is lasagna, grill is barbecue brisket,

00:22:45   Pangea-seared salmon.

00:22:47   Indian is chicken tikka masala,

00:22:48   of grimace high green chicken curry Romana is Romana quattro pizza carne asada burrito is the

00:22:56   Italian and then two desserts are dark chocolate panna cotta and vegan mixed berry cow but this is

00:23:01   a very fancy sounding menu and assuming this food is it's got to be better than the box lunch so I

00:23:06   feel like these people are getting a more premium experience would you eat the lasagna that's exactly

00:23:12   what it's gonna say okay john how do you feel about house-made pasta sheets layered with bolognese

00:23:17   Bechamel, I'm probably pronouncing this all wrong,

00:23:19   Parmigiano served over tomato sauce.

00:23:21   How do you feel about that, Jon?

00:23:22   - I have had bad luck with Italian food in California.

00:23:25   California's a big place.

00:23:26   I have been to only a tiny, tiny portion of it

00:23:29   and then mostly had boxed lunches.

00:23:30   So it's not a judgment on whether, you know,

00:23:33   about an entire state.

00:23:34   All I'm saying is that with the tiny, tiny

00:23:36   amount of experience I've had in California,

00:23:38   I have not had good luck with Italian food.

00:23:40   I feel like I would probably go with something

00:23:42   that would have a higher chance of being good.

00:23:46   so maybe the burrito, which the area is,

00:23:49   the few tiny areas in California that I have been to

00:23:51   are known for having good burritos.

00:23:52   I feel like there's a higher chance of that one being good.

00:23:55   I probably would not pick a lasagna.

00:23:57   - The burrito filled with carne asada, Spanish rice,

00:23:59   black beans, pico de gallo, and mozzarella cheese,

00:24:01   served with red and green salsa and corn tortilla chips.

00:24:04   That does sound solid.

00:24:05   - That sounds a little weird.

00:24:07   I don't know, I don't think I would pick the Italian

00:24:10   out of this choice.

00:24:11   - I would absolutely choose barbecue brisket,

00:24:13   a slow roasted beef brisket glazed

00:24:15   with our house-made barbecue sauce

00:24:16   served with three cheese macaroni and cheese.

00:24:18   I mean, even if the brisket stinks,

00:24:19   the mac and cheese is probably gonna be passable.

00:24:21   Worst, so sold.

00:24:23   - Do hyphens cost a lot of money in California?

00:24:26   - Wow. - You're such a grump.

00:24:28   - What should be hyphenated here?

00:24:29   - Like every other word.

00:24:30   (laughing)

00:24:31   - I mean, these have to be like standard dishes

00:24:33   in Cafe Mac, so just ask Apple people.

00:24:35   What's good that they make there out of this choice?

00:24:38   They'd know which one to pick.

00:24:40   - I think I would, the Pacific Rim,

00:24:42   the Thai green chicken curry sounds good.

00:24:44   I also might go to the vegan Kung Pao tofu and vegetables.

00:24:48   To me, for whatever it's worth,

00:24:49   I haven't been to the ring yet,

00:24:51   but we did go to the visitor center there

00:24:54   and they had a little coffee shop there

00:24:55   and I remember that being very good.

00:24:57   And also, years ago, we were lucky enough

00:25:02   to go to the Infinite Loop campus at one point

00:25:06   and I ate at Cafe Max there and that was excellent.

00:25:10   - Yeah, it really was.

00:25:11   And so I'm hoping that they continue the tradition

00:25:15   with the new building, and they probably have.

00:25:17   Their record on the food they serve their employees,

00:25:20   as far as I know, is pretty solid.

00:25:22   So I would expect this to all be pretty good, really.

00:25:26   - Yeah, I went to, this was not with the two of y'all,

00:25:28   but I went to, I think it's called Alves?

00:25:30   I probably pronounced that wrong as well.

00:25:31   But it was, I was told it was like a rough draft

00:25:36   for what became Cafe Max in the ring,

00:25:38   and that was super fancy as well,

00:25:40   and that was really good to my recollection.

00:25:42   So yeah, to me, I would do barbecue brisket,

00:25:45   maybe the seared salmon, seared salmon served

00:25:46   over roasted vegetable, almost said quinoa

00:25:49   from the commercial, quinoa salad.

00:25:51   Did you ever see that commercial?

00:25:52   Quinoa, what is a quinoa?

00:25:54   Anyway, but that's probably what I would choose.

00:25:56   But no, I mean, this looks pretty decent.

00:25:58   Now, however, I have also not spent

00:26:01   an overabundance of time in California.

00:26:03   And I think I can still be so bold as to say,

00:26:08   Finding a decent, nay, passable bagel in the entire state of California is challenging from everything I've understood,

00:26:15   both from locals and from my own experience.

00:26:18   Jon, how do you feel about the San... San D'Aniele Prosciutto bagel, everything bagel, San D'Aniele Prosciutto,

00:26:25   Mars Carpone cream, heirloom tomato, and micro horseradish?

00:26:29   Yeah, I'm... I mean, random bagels I just avoid everywhere, definitely, in California I would avoid them.

00:26:36   Although again, like these fresh fruit,

00:26:38   can't go wrong with that.

00:26:39   Barry's Parfait, hard to mess that up.

00:26:41   This is like a seed, so the breakfast menu

00:26:43   we're looking at here.

00:26:44   Although something occurs to me looking at all of this.

00:26:47   So part of Apple having reportedly good food

00:26:51   for its employees is unlike Google and Facebook

00:26:55   and stuff like that, it's not free.

00:26:56   The employees pay for the food.

00:26:57   Now maybe they're paying a subsidized price,

00:27:00   but they do pay money is my understanding for their food.

00:27:03   But looking at this big list here,

00:27:05   I don't see any prices.

00:27:07   So if you won the lottery and got to go to this,

00:27:11   you know, come to Apple Park and watch WWC videos with us,

00:27:15   do you get this food for free or are they gonna make you pay?

00:27:18   - I would hope they did it for free, but Apple is cheap.

00:27:20   So I wouldn't be surprised if we have to pay.

00:27:21   - Well, at the same time, like the employees have to pay

00:27:23   and they're Apple employees, but you're just guessing

00:27:25   this is a one-time special thing, so maybe it's all free.

00:27:27   This is what we need reporting on.

00:27:29   We need people on the ground, we need photos,

00:27:31   we need to say, did you pay and get a group together

00:27:34   and everyone get one of the entrees

00:27:35   and tell us which one was the best.

00:27:37   - Right, next week everyone's gonna be talking about

00:27:40   the new AR framework or whatever,

00:27:42   and we're gonna be talking about

00:27:43   whether you had to pay for your San Daniel Prosciutto Bagel.

00:27:46   - Well, once you're on Thursday,

00:27:49   Thursday of WWDC week,

00:27:51   people start thinking about the food a little bit more.

00:27:53   Not that people are gonna be there till Thursday,

00:27:54   but I'm saying eventually you get tired of sessions

00:27:57   and it's time to talk about the food.

00:27:59   - So anyway, so we should, for completeness sake,

00:28:01   we should read this.

00:28:02   the aforementioned prosciutto bagel, smoked salmon and caviar bagel,

00:28:06   almond butter and avocado toast, very on brand for California, fresh fruit, Barry's Parfait, overnight oats, and assorted mini breakfast

00:28:12   pastries, as well as a beverage selection of Cafe Max juices, coffee, tea, and water.

00:28:17   I'm gonna go with the assorted breakfast pastries.

00:28:19   That's one of my favorite parts of WWC back when we would go to it in person is assorted breakfast pastries.

00:28:24   Indeed. Really hard to screw up like

00:28:26   extremely over buttered, sugar glazed

00:28:30   Pastries with fruit inside them. Well, this is this is what people tune in for. This is the important work

00:28:34   So I'm glad John these by that

00:28:36   Isn't it weird to you that the only breakfast bagel options contain either meat or fish on top? No

00:28:42   Lots, it's a locks bagel or it's something that vaguely resembles a lot of prosciutto is not locks

00:28:49   And no, no, no, it's a very confused California. I mean that bagels not gonna be a big one

00:28:53   It was gonna be really hard dense. Not very good bread. Yeah. Well, that's true. I'm talking more about the smoked salmon one

00:28:58   I do wonder what is micro horseradish made from tiny horses. I don't know. This is I have so many questions

00:29:03   No, the smoked salmon bagel with caviar because of course

00:29:06   That that to me is some fancy person's, you know, I'm too cool for you

00:29:12   Artisanal take on a lox bagel, you know with cream cheese or whatever, but totally what are you gonna do?

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00:31:20   - All right, Jon, let's talk about what everyone

00:31:27   has been dying to talk about.

00:31:29   Let's talk about your Mac Studio.

00:31:30   - So I mentioned last year that I had my Mac Studio,

00:31:32   but I hadn't even opened the box

00:31:34   and that I should do that.

00:31:35   And when I did, I had to give a report

00:31:38   on the fan noise and everything.

00:31:40   And so I figured if I'm gonna open it up

00:31:42   and hook it up to something, I should probably,

00:31:44   you know, do the migration as well,

00:31:46   because it's a time consuming process.

00:31:48   So that's what I did.

00:31:49   I opened it up, I connected to my 4K monitor,

00:31:52   and then I had to hook it up to my Mac's iMac

00:31:53   to start doing the migration.

00:31:55   And I realized when I was hooking it up

00:31:56   that I had, you know, done all this preparation,

00:31:58   got all this stuff together, you know,

00:32:00   doing the AV preparation, doing my Mac Studio preparation.

00:32:03   I didn't think about getting a cable to connect

00:32:07   the Mac Studio to a 2015 5K iMac.

00:32:12   That 5G iMac has on the back of it a bunch of USB-A ports,

00:32:16   an ethernet port, and a bunch of Thunderbolt 2 ports,

00:32:21   which look like a mini display port,

00:32:22   like that's the shape of the connector.

00:32:24   And I swore that I had a Thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter,

00:32:29   like one of the white Apple dongles,

00:32:31   and a Thunderbolt 2 cable.

00:32:33   And I was close, I had the adapter.

00:32:34   In fact, I have two of those adapters.

00:32:36   So I was excited about that,

00:32:38   but I don't have a Thunderbolt 2 cable.

00:32:40   I'm like, well, you know,

00:32:41   I thought I had a Thunderbolt 2 cable laying around,

00:32:42   but I know I did a big cable cleanup recently,

00:32:44   so who knows where that is.

00:32:46   But I was like, well, worst case scenario,

00:32:47   I know where I can get one.

00:32:48   I have a Thunderbolt display upstairs.

00:32:51   And I looked all over the house, couldn't find one.

00:32:52   I'm like, all right, time to go get the Thunderbolt display.

00:32:55   So I go up there, move all the boxes,

00:32:56   get up the giant Thunderbolt display box, open it up,

00:32:59   and the cable is stuck to the back of that monitor.

00:33:03   - Oh no.

00:33:04   - It's like, it's the rat tail that comes off of it,

00:33:07   and the other end is not removable.

00:33:09   It's just inside the monitor.

00:33:11   So that was sad.

00:33:13   So I'm like, all right, well, I did some math.

00:33:15   It's a little bit of math.

00:33:16   I'm like, OK, ethernet, one gigabit, right?

00:33:19   How much data is on the SSD?

00:33:20   How long will it take?

00:33:21   I came up with an estimate of like four hours.

00:33:23   I'm like, that's not that bad.

00:33:26   And this is another time to sing the praises of Migration

00:33:29   Assistant.

00:33:30   I don't remember when the last time I used it was,

00:33:32   but use it again here.

00:33:34   I've plugged the machines in, ethernet,

00:33:36   follow the instructions, you know.

00:33:38   and then it brings up the migration assistant thing

00:33:40   and it gives you an option of what I want.

00:33:42   And then while it's running, it has like this little,

00:33:45   you know, blue link thing that you can press.

00:33:47   It says like connection info or connection details.

00:33:49   And it shows you all the connections

00:33:51   that are available to it that it speed tested.

00:33:54   And I just plugged an ethernet cable.

00:33:56   So it said, ethernet speed tested to, you know,

00:33:59   900 megabits or whatever.

00:34:01   It was like almost a gigabit, right?

00:34:02   And then it said peer to peer speed tested to 50 megabits.

00:34:07   And then it said Wi-Fi speed tested to 40 megabytes.

00:34:10   Peer to peer is like when it does the sort of air drop

00:34:12   peer to peer wireless network without going through

00:34:14   like the euros essentially, right?

00:34:16   And these are two machines that are like two feet away,

00:34:17   but it was great that it showed me all the options

00:34:19   and showed me that I was using the fastest one.

00:34:21   And then it even had a tip that said,

00:34:23   "Hint, to make this go faster,

00:34:25   "connect through Thunderbolt."

00:34:26   I'm like, yeah, I know, thanks.

00:34:28   So. - That's cool.

00:34:29   I didn't know it had that whole thing.

00:34:31   - It's really cool.

00:34:32   It's really nice.

00:34:33   And then it says just connect the Thunderbolt

00:34:34   to make it go faster.

00:34:35   And I was like, that probably means

00:34:36   that if I did have a Thunderbolt 2 cable,

00:34:38   I could just plug it in while it's running

00:34:40   and it would just swap to it and go faster.

00:34:42   So it started running and it's like,

00:34:45   it took a long time to even get an estimate

00:34:47   'cause it's counting files,

00:34:48   it's like millions of files or whatever.

00:34:49   And eventually it gives an estimate like,

00:34:52   20, 30 minutes into it and says,

00:34:53   it's gonna be like four or five hours.

00:34:55   I'm like, oh, well, I'll just let it run.

00:34:58   But then I realized, well,

00:34:59   I can just go get a Thunderbolt 2 cable.

00:35:02   And I was like, well, do I know where I can find one?

00:35:04   Do I wanna drive to the Apple Store?

00:35:05   and then I remember the Marco solution,

00:35:07   or maybe also the Cayce solution,

00:35:09   which is do that courier thing where you pay $10

00:35:11   and someone drives it to your house, like in an hour.

00:35:13   - Yep.

00:35:14   - So I did that.

00:35:15   Apple had a six foot long Thunderbolt 2 cable,

00:35:17   which I was worried they wouldn't even have what they did.

00:35:19   I just ordered it on my phone and paid the extra nine bucks

00:35:23   for them to courier it to my house.

00:35:24   And someone came to my house with a Thunderbolt cable

00:35:26   in a little tiny baggie.

00:35:28   And then I plugged it into the computer,

00:35:29   the back one computer with the little two to three adapter

00:35:32   and then in the back of the iMac.

00:35:34   And it noticed the connection was there.

00:35:35   It speed tested it to like 800 megabytes per second,

00:35:38   which is faster than one gigabit for people doing the math.

00:35:41   And then it switched to it.

00:35:43   And it started to go way, way faster.

00:35:44   So that's pretty cool.

00:35:45   I was really impressed with what they've done

00:35:47   with Migration Assistant.

00:35:48   Of course, it successfully did the job,

00:35:50   but every step of the way, it told me all the different ways

00:35:53   that I could let it do what it was doing.

00:35:54   And even mid-flight, I could buy something and plug it in

00:35:57   and let it finish the sort of second half

00:35:58   of the migration much faster.

00:36:00   And you know, the migration worked, right?

00:36:03   So I booted up and started setting up all the things,

00:36:06   deleting all the Intel only apps,

00:36:07   making sure I had M1 versions of everything,

00:36:10   transferring licenses to software from the iMac to that one,

00:36:14   doing all the stuff,

00:36:16   transferring my backblaze license over to that thing,

00:36:18   inheriting backup state,

00:36:20   got everything all ready to go.

00:36:22   And part of the reason why I was deciding to do this

00:36:25   migration and set up this thing,

00:36:26   aside from just checking that the Mac Studio

00:36:28   was what I expected and that it worked,

00:36:29   was that I got a surprise email from Apple that said,

00:36:31   "Hey, guess what?

00:36:32   Remember we said June 22nd?

00:36:34   Well, actually it's coming June 1st.

00:36:36   - Oh, that's today.

00:36:37   - It was very exciting, yes.

00:36:38   So it did come today and I did set it up.

00:36:40   - Oh, wow.

00:36:41   - And so now I've got the whole system all configured.

00:36:44   So, you know, I had the MacStudio on the desk next

00:36:47   to the 4K and that was also for me to hear the fan noise.

00:36:50   And the fan noise was amply represented on YouTube.

00:36:53   It sounds in person like it does in those YouTube videos.

00:36:56   It is a thing that you can hear.

00:36:58   Mine did not have any of the sort of high-pitched,

00:37:02   terrible noises.

00:37:03   It was just more of the (imitates noise)

00:37:04   you know, that you hear in the videos.

00:37:06   And it was very quiet.

00:37:07   My wife did not care about it at all.

00:37:09   She was like, "I don't care about noises as much as you do.

00:37:12   I don't, whatever, I don't care."

00:37:14   - Does anybody?

00:37:15   - Yeah.

00:37:15   (laughing)

00:37:17   I did mess with the fan speed things.

00:37:18   I have several fan control apps,

00:37:20   some of which I already own from messing with fans

00:37:22   on my Mac Pro and some of which I bought

00:37:24   or tried trials of just to mess with this.

00:37:27   And just my Mac studio, just like everyone else's,

00:37:29   idling at like 1300 RPM, the minimum speed is 1100.

00:37:32   So the first thing I did was said,

00:37:33   "How quiet are the fans at 1100?"

00:37:36   'Cause you just manually turn them to 1100,

00:37:37   or also on one of my apps,

00:37:38   you can just set a bunch of rules that says,

00:37:40   if this temperature sensor is,

00:37:43   or the average of these temperature sensors

00:37:45   is below this value, put the fans at this speed,

00:37:48   and make a bunch of,

00:37:49   make this and make your own fan curve, right?

00:37:51   And so I did that, and I made a curve

00:37:53   such that they dropped down to 1100

00:37:55   when the thing is idle.

00:37:56   And you know, this could be manufacturing variability.

00:38:01   Again, we mentioned that multiple Mac studios

00:38:04   can have different power supplies

00:38:06   made by different companies, but on my Mac studio,

00:38:09   if this was the only Mac studio I had ever seen,

00:38:11   my theory would be they make the fans idle at 1300

00:38:15   because at 1100, whatever way the electrical power

00:38:20   is fed to the fans at 1100,

00:38:23   it adds an extra little seasoning

00:38:26   of high-pitched wine to the fan.

00:38:29   So yes, the fans get quieter,

00:38:31   that like, you can hear them spin down, they get quieter,

00:38:34   but there's this high-pitched wine that comes in,

00:38:37   it's almost like the electrical system

00:38:40   does not want to feed electricity,

00:38:43   whatever it needs, the amperage, the volts, whatever,

00:38:46   to make them go at 1,100 RPM,

00:38:48   that introduces a high-pitched wine.

00:38:49   When they go up to 13, no more wine.

00:38:52   Is the wine from the fans moving that slowly?

00:38:54   Is the wine from the electronics in the fan?

00:38:55   Is the wine from the power supply?

00:38:56   I don't know, but my particular Mac Studio at 1100

00:39:00   sounds worse than at 1300

00:39:03   because that high-pitched wine comes in.

00:39:04   - That's so weird.

00:39:06   The more we hear about the fan system on the Mac Studio,

00:39:10   the more of like a weird miss it seems to be

00:39:14   because when you look at the other M1 Macs

00:39:18   and M1 Pro products, like all the laptops and everything,

00:39:21   It just seems like they didn't need that level of noise

00:39:25   for that enclosure and that chip.

00:39:27   And I don't know what happened there,

00:39:30   but it really seemed like an odd miss for them.

00:39:33   - Yeah, and again, just like the people on YouTube,

00:39:36   I don't think I ever saw a temperature over 35 Celsius,

00:39:39   which I have no idea what that is in real temperature,

00:39:41   but all I know is that it's low.

00:39:43   It's low for the insides of a computer.

00:39:44   Like, the highest temperature sensor was 35 Celsius.

00:39:48   And not that I was doing anything particularly big with it,

00:39:50   although I was like running, downloading all my photos

00:39:53   from iCloud and running a backblaze backup,

00:39:55   but it's still like, the fans never,

00:39:58   just like everyone else on YouTube,

00:39:59   they idle at 1300 RPM and they just stay

00:40:01   around 1300 RPM, just forever, right?

00:40:04   It does not get hot, so it's not as if like,

00:40:06   oh, this machine is so hot, they painted themselves

00:40:08   into a thermal, just, the machine does not get hot

00:40:10   doing normal things at all, and yet the fans,

00:40:13   there they are at 1300 RPM doing their thing,

00:40:15   and like I said, 1100 on my particular Mac Studio is worse.

00:40:19   Some people have, I've heard videos on YouTube

00:40:21   of like, listen to the high pitch wine.

00:40:23   But it wasn't when they artificially dropped

00:40:25   the fan speed down, it was just at other speeds

00:40:27   it was doing that wine.

00:40:27   So anyway, I decided having it on a desk

00:40:31   for like a day doing the migration

00:40:32   and then a day setting up stuff.

00:40:34   I'm like, I think I'm gonna start this thing underneath.

00:40:37   Like I've got this 3D printed purchased on Etsy cage

00:40:42   for the Mac studio that I talked about.

00:40:44   I did put a link to it in last week's show notes.

00:40:46   So if you were looking for it,

00:40:47   just look for a last week show notes

00:40:48   link to this Etsy thing. It exactly fits the Mac Studio. It's meant to mount a Mac Studio

00:40:54   to the underside of a desk. So I figured, I'm not even going to bother putting this

00:40:58   on a desk. I know it will bother me a little bit. Let me just put it under. And also it

00:41:02   will free up desk space for my wife's desk. Because the iMac didn't have another box that

00:41:06   took up space, right? It just had the screen. So preserving that sort of appearance for

00:41:11   her. So I did put, well two problems with this

00:41:15   this 3D printed thing.

00:41:17   One, I've got a really big honking keyboard tray

00:41:19   on this desk and the space behind the keyboard tray

00:41:24   where I would mount the Mac Studio,

00:41:27   there's not enough space to do

00:41:29   what the little sling wants you to do.

00:41:32   They want you to slide the Mac Studio into it.

00:41:35   Like so, screw the thing to the underside of the desk.

00:41:37   It's like a little shelf and then slide the Mac Studio in.

00:41:41   I can't do that because the back of the desk

00:41:44   has a piece of wood across it, right?

00:41:46   It's got a hole for cables to go through,

00:41:47   but it's got a piece of wood,

00:41:48   so there's not enough room for me to get the Max Studio

00:41:50   behind the thing and slide it in.

00:41:52   So I have to put the Max Studio in the sling

00:41:57   and then screw it to the top with the Max Studio in there.

00:42:00   And the only way to get it off would be to unscrew it,

00:42:02   'cause I can't slide it out again, right?

00:42:04   So I used my experience watching car rebuilding channels,

00:42:07   and I don't know what they would call it,

00:42:09   lots of lifts have another little mini thing inside them

00:42:11   that you can use to press up against the transmission

00:42:13   If you unbolt the transmission but you don't want the transmission to fall down, you have

00:42:16   to like, you know, use a hydraulic jack or lift to press up against it.

00:42:20   So I used a camera tripod with no camera on it, and I put it to the right height and then

00:42:26   crank the neck up and press the MacStudio up against the underside of the desk in its

00:42:31   little thing, after drilling pilot holes, and then, you know, screw the thing in, right?

00:42:37   So the first problem was I had to do that whole weird procedure to jack the thing up

00:42:40   and screw it in.

00:42:41   Second problem is after I screwed it in,

00:42:43   I'm looking at it and I'm going,

00:42:44   hmm, I know nothing about 3D printing.

00:42:47   I think this is like the second 3D printed object

00:42:49   I've ever touched in my life.

00:42:50   The first being a really cool dog cow that somebody made.

00:42:53   But I don't know how sturdy the plastic resin

00:42:59   crap stuff is for 3D printing.

00:43:01   And I'm looking at it and I'm going,

00:43:03   this thing is held on by six screws.

00:43:05   The screws are not going anywhere.

00:43:06   They're well screwed into the desk.

00:43:08   That's very secure, right?

00:43:10   but the plastic ears that they're screwed into,

00:43:13   I could totally see that it was just snapping off

00:43:15   from fatigue, right?

00:43:16   I don't know how durable that is or whatever.

00:43:18   So now I feel like I have to add like sort of safety wires.

00:43:23   I'm gonna get like the security wire

00:43:24   that's holding my outdoor camera.

00:43:26   I can get like a length of like two lengths of metal wire

00:43:28   to also kind of screw up to the desk,

00:43:30   say if the plastic cracks,

00:43:32   at least the thing won't fall to the ground

00:43:34   to land on my dog who loves to lay down there, right?

00:43:36   It'll be caught by the security wire.

00:43:37   So I do need to sort of reinforce that.

00:43:39   but otherwise it's bolted under the desk.

00:43:42   It's out of sight.

00:43:43   You can still get to the SD card slot

00:43:45   because it's sort of like you reach into the keyboard tray

00:43:47   and you can get to the front USB-C Thunderbolt ports

00:43:51   and the back ones you'd have to crawl underneath,

00:43:52   but I don't have anything to plug into them yet.

00:43:55   And it's a good thing I bolted it where I did

00:43:57   'cause I put it basically right dead center in the desk

00:43:59   behind the keyboard tray because the monitor cable

00:44:04   that comes with the Apple Studio display is very short.

00:44:07   If I had put it to the side,

00:44:08   If I had put the MacStudio in the corner,

00:44:10   I would have screwed it in, I would have been very sad

00:44:12   'cause I wouldn't have been able to connect the display

00:44:14   'cause the wire is, how long,

00:44:16   it's like three feet or something, Casey?

00:44:17   You mean your own shape? - Something like that, yeah.

00:44:19   I wouldn't describe it as very short,

00:44:21   but I would by no means describe it as long,

00:44:23   certainly not long.

00:44:24   - Well, I mean, if you got it and you were saying,

00:44:26   "I'm gonna hook this up to my Mac Pro," no, you're not,

00:44:27   'cause your Mac Pro, there's no way your Mac Pro

00:44:29   is that close to your monitor.

00:44:30   It's probably on the floor or to the side.

00:44:32   It's really short.

00:44:34   It fits fine with the thing underneath where it is

00:44:36   'cause the hole that's in the back of my desk

00:44:38   like right in the center as well so I go from the monitor behind the desk through the hole

00:44:42   straight into the thing.

00:44:43   Same thing with the power cord.

00:44:44   It's nice also by the way that the power cord is dead center on the MacStudio because that

00:44:47   works out for me.

00:44:48   Sorry the cabling all worked out perfectly but I did not expect the cable to be that

00:44:53   short on the MacStudio.

00:44:55   And so yeah under the desk I can still hear it.

00:44:58   I know it's there but it's so quiet that you wouldn't notice.

00:45:01   I feel like even with under the desk it is still noisier than a 2015 5k iMac.

00:45:07   I'd idle because you know 2015 5k I can idle I can't hear anything 2015 5k

00:45:12   I'm act doing anything or loading Facebook in the tab. Yeah, that's it sounds like something, you know

00:45:16   Aircraft carrier or whatever airplane taking off

00:45:19   But no, it's it's it's pretty good where it is as long as it stays up there

00:45:23   I think I'll be happy with it Apple Studio display

00:45:25   My wife's reactor when she saw it. It's like why is that so small because she's used to the iMac with the giant bezels in

00:45:33   The chin right? I'm like I swear to you. It is exactly the same size

00:45:35   we can get out of tape measure.

00:45:37   It's 27 inches, but it looks much smaller.

00:45:41   Stand is nice.

00:45:42   It doesn't feel quite as gritty as the XDR stand,

00:45:47   but you know.

00:45:48   And the fact that it doesn't rotate.

00:45:50   - Did you get the fancy stand or did you get the--

00:45:52   - Yeah, I got the fancy height adjustable one.

00:45:54   I was trying to pick which height to put it at.

00:45:57   But that works well.

00:45:59   Let's see.

00:46:00   The camera, worse than I thought.

00:46:02   Like I saw all the videos, we talked about it on the show.

00:46:05   I was not prepared to how bad it would look.

00:46:08   I mean, part of it is what we see,

00:46:12   you see photographs of it on Twitter that are recompressed

00:46:14   and you see YouTube videos that are themselves compressed

00:46:17   but seeing it in real life,

00:46:19   boy, it just makes a complete mess out of my face.

00:46:22   I look like I'm in an impressionist painting.

00:46:24   It's just so posterized, right?

00:46:27   So just really bad.

00:46:30   It almost makes me think that,

00:46:34   looking up at my fancy 4K Logitech magnetic snap-on thing,

00:46:39   that there is a third-party opportunity

00:46:41   for something similar to this product,

00:46:43   something that magnetically attaches

00:46:44   to the top of the studio display

00:46:46   that has a tiny little USB-C cord

00:46:48   that's just long enough to reach down

00:46:49   into one of the studio display's USB-C ports,

00:46:52   I would probably buy that product

00:46:53   'cause boy, this camera is stinky.

00:46:55   I mean, I was warned, but anyway, we'll just ignore it.

00:47:00   Speakers sound good, monitor itself looks good.

00:47:02   Although I do notice it's kind of weird

00:47:04   that like Casey you're looking at the monitor right now.

00:47:06   So tell me if you noticed this.

00:47:08   From my normal sitting position,

00:47:10   if I look at the bottom edge of the monitor,

00:47:12   past where the pixels end,

00:47:13   there's like a little, you know,

00:47:14   the little part of black.

00:47:16   Do you see a little bit of the silver case,

00:47:19   like kind of smile at you on the edges?

00:47:23   - No, but it's, I do have the light on, throwback.

00:47:28   I am in my sleepy shirt, but the light is on.

00:47:31   And even with my phone's flat, I don't know,

00:47:33   but my eyes are garbage.

00:47:34   And I can't say I've ever noticed that now.

00:47:36   Not to say you're wrong, I just, I have never noticed.

00:47:38   - Yeah, it's almost like you can see a hint

00:47:42   of the silver surround, like there's a tiny,

00:47:45   tiny silver rim around the whole display.

00:47:47   Rather than, I look at the XDR,

00:47:49   the black sort of covers everything

00:47:50   and you can't see any of the silver

00:47:51   from normal viewing angles, but the studio display,

00:47:53   you can see a little sliver of the silver,

00:47:56   kind of around the whole display,

00:47:57   but you mostly notice it on the bottom

00:47:59   because of the angle that the thing is held.

00:48:00   I don't know, I'll look at it more.

00:48:02   It's not distracting or anything,

00:48:04   it's just something I noticed that is different

00:48:06   than the XDR.

00:48:07   Let's see what else about the Studio,

00:48:10   Mac Studio setup.

00:48:11   I'm annoyed by photos because, you know,

00:48:15   I didn't bother copying my photo library.

00:48:17   I'm like, oh, I call photos, I'll just re-download it all.

00:48:19   So I hook up the library, make it the system library,

00:48:21   I can put it on the main SSD now 'cause it's nice and big.

00:48:24   I set it to download photos and it says,

00:48:25   "Downloading 145,000 photos," right?

00:48:29   And that's what it says for the next day or two.

00:48:32   Downloading, the number never changes.

00:48:35   There's no indication of progress,

00:48:36   no indication that it is making any progress.

00:48:39   There I am, an activity monitor,

00:48:40   looking at the network packets going by,

00:48:43   saying, is it doing anything?

00:48:44   Is it downloading anything?

00:48:45   Is something happening?

00:48:46   This is ever gonna finish?

00:48:47   So I don't know, I'll let you know in a week or two.

00:48:49   I mean, it's like, you know,

00:48:51   it's like a terabyte of photos,

00:48:52   so it's not gonna happen overnight.

00:48:54   But I wish I knew if it was working at all,

00:48:57   And if it was, I wish I could make it go faster,

00:48:59   more terrible interface from photos.

00:49:03   But yeah, other than that, everything seems to work well.

00:49:05   Sorry, my wife's concerned.

00:49:06   She, you know, went away and came back

00:49:07   and she has a different looking computer,

00:49:09   but all her same stuff is on it.

00:49:11   And it's a million times faster than it was,

00:49:13   but she doesn't care about that for the most part.

00:49:14   I guess it's quieter now because she can open more tabs

00:49:17   on sites that have terrible ads

00:49:19   that used to cause her 5K iMacs fans to spin up

00:49:22   until the thing looked like it was gonna take off

00:49:23   from the desk.

00:49:24   And now it will just quietly sit there

00:49:26   grinding the CPU with those terrible ads,

00:49:29   but other than that, I give it a,

00:49:32   I mean, my hopes are that this is gonna be her computer

00:49:36   for the next, you know, seven or eight years, 10 years,

00:49:39   you know, 2015 iMac lasted her into 2022,

00:49:42   so that's a pretty good run.

00:49:43   I hope this will last just as long,

00:49:44   'cause I don't see why it shouldn't.

00:49:46   She's happy with this setup.

00:49:47   She likes a keyboard and a mouse.

00:49:48   She likes a 27-inch 5K monitor

00:49:50   with speakers built in and a camera.

00:49:53   She doesn't care that much about the camera being crappy,

00:49:54   but it is.

00:49:56   As long as that little thing stuck to the underside of the desk doesn't get any noisier

00:49:59   over time and stays stuck to the underside of the desk, I think it'll be fine.

00:50:03   I've got plenty of room to grow.

00:50:04   I haven't even filled any of the Thunderbolt ports.

00:50:08   She's got a big USB hub on the desk and she's got the USB-C/Thunderbolt ports all waiting

00:50:14   to receive fancier backup disks and all sorts of other stuff.

00:50:19   Thumbs up so far.

00:50:20   I am glad that both of you are happy.

00:50:24   I can't believe that you're not complaining about the fan

00:50:27   being in the same room that you occupy.

00:50:29   - Well, Marco can tell me if he hears it on the microphone.

00:50:31   I mean, I can't, with my headphones on,

00:50:32   I can hear my Mac Pro, which is a few feet away from me,

00:50:35   but I can't hear with my headphones on

00:50:37   the thing way back there.

00:50:40   When I sit in front of her computer, I can hear it,

00:50:43   but just barely.

00:50:45   - No, I mean, and I wouldn't expect it to be a problem

00:50:47   for a podcast, and it would have to be a pretty loud fan

00:50:49   for that that I think you would have other problems with.

00:50:51   But no, I'm just, I'm surprised, like,

00:50:54   Again, it seems odd to me that both the Mac Studio

00:50:57   and the Studio Display both have weird,

00:51:00   seemingly unnecessary flaws.

00:51:03   The Studio Display has its really terrible camera

00:51:05   that somehow happened, and the Mac Studio

00:51:08   has this really odd fan noise situation

00:51:11   that seems unnecessary.

00:51:13   I'm just surprised at both of these products

00:51:16   that we were very excited about when they were announced

00:51:19   because spec-wise they seem great

00:51:21   and they fill important roles in the lineup.

00:51:23   And when you look at Apple's other recent launches,

00:51:26   they've been basically flawless.

00:51:29   You know, the MacBook Pros, basically flawless.

00:51:32   Before that, the M1 series, the M1 iMac,

00:51:34   the M1 MacBook Air, and the 13 inch weird MacBook Pro

00:51:38   that shouldn't quite be a pro,

00:51:40   the little Mac Mini with the M1,

00:51:42   all of those products, basically perfect.

00:51:45   So it's odd to have these two sort of flagship products

00:51:50   have these really weird downsides that seem totally avoidable.

00:51:56   But I don't know.

00:51:57   I don't know what happened there, but hopefully we'll see with the Mac Pro, when that ever

00:52:01   comes we'll kind of see how the story rounds itself out.

00:52:05   I also think we are still kind of missing the M1 Pro based Mac Mini, which seems like

00:52:12   it should exist and yet doesn't.

00:52:15   Maybe that would answer some of the questions and close some of these gaps, I don't know.

00:52:18   But we'll see how the story closes out.

00:52:21   But this seems like an odd place for it to be in right now.

00:52:25   - Yeah, like if the Mac Studio was as quiet

00:52:27   as the M1 Mac Mini, and obviously there's just

00:52:29   more stuff in there.

00:52:30   If you compare the size of the M1s and the M1 Mac Mini,

00:52:32   it's so much smaller than the Pro or the Ultra

00:52:36   that's in this thing, so I get it.

00:52:37   But if it was that quiet, I would have a lot more fondness

00:52:41   for its very small form factor.

00:52:43   And as it stands now, it's great that it's small

00:52:46   so I can shove it underneath my desk.

00:52:48   But if it was 50% bigger, but also silent,

00:52:52   I would just put it on the desk.

00:52:53   So it's kind of like the only reason I'm glad

00:52:55   that this is small and I can smuggle it on a desk

00:52:57   is because I wanna get that fan

00:52:59   as far away from me as possible.

00:53:00   But yeah, it's not clear to me what,

00:53:04   that they needed this much sort of heat removal stuff

00:53:07   and that they had to wedge it in there

00:53:09   with two small diameter high speed fans

00:53:11   rather than one much more lazy large diameter fan.

00:53:13   And if they had just done it like a chimney with cold air

00:53:15   in the bottom, hot air on the top of the large diameter fan

00:53:18   instead, like they could have made a lot of different choices, but it seemed like some

00:53:21   stuff was sacrificed on the altar of making it look like a big Mac Mini, which is air

00:53:25   in the bottom, hot air at the bottom, hot air at the back.

00:53:28   Yeah, but like what, like you can get that exact same chip, not the ultra I know, but

00:53:32   like you can get, you can get the Macs that exact same chip in the 13 inch MacBook Pro

00:53:36   and it's silent. Like I, it's so, that's why, that's why it's so odd to me. But you know,

00:53:42   the reality is I'm, I'm not, you know, very selfishly, I'm not upset too much about this

00:53:47   because I don't want that computer now.

00:53:51   Maybe it is the power supply, as we were talking about before.

00:53:54   There's DC voltage coming from the batteries inside of MacBook Pro, right?

00:53:57   So there's no power supply circuitry to turn AC into DC and all that stuff?

00:54:01   Maybe is that the big difference?

00:54:03   Is it just the giant analog circuit board and the associated analog noise and additional

00:54:07   heat?

00:54:08   Well, but my MacBook Pro is powered by a very small fanless silent little white power brick

00:54:16   too. So like, that doesn't seem to be the only difference. Yeah,

00:54:19   it was but it's external like that, that can radiate heat out

00:54:22   into the room and the fireworks may not be sound when I was

00:54:25   hooking stuff up. I was hooking up a USB hub just to have I have

00:54:28   old like USB three hub to just you know, put lightning cables

00:54:30   and crap on so it's on the desk right. And I was gonna hook that

00:54:33   up and I took took my wife's one off my god this one looks kind

00:54:36   of cruddy and dusty. Let me go get a newer one that I had in

00:54:39   the attic. So I go up the attic and bring down the newer one.

00:54:41   And I'm like, Oh, I don't need to you know, I should get I

00:54:44   I actually use all new stuff.

00:54:45   So I took out the old one entirely,

00:54:47   took out the cable, the USB hub,

00:54:49   and of course the external brick thing

00:54:50   that they all come with, right?

00:54:52   And I get the brand new stuff and I hook it all up

00:54:54   and I'm crawling on a desk, connecting it together,

00:54:56   and I plug in the brick into the UPS

00:55:01   'cause the USB from the UPS also runs through this,

00:55:05   so I don't want it to go out when power goes out

00:55:07   because that's how the Mac knows to shut down.

00:55:09   Anyway, and when I did that,

00:55:11   I started to hear this buzzing, ticking noise

00:55:15   from inside the power brick,

00:55:18   which I just recognized as analog electronic noise.

00:55:20   Like some coil of wire in there is doing something

00:55:25   or whatever, and I unplug it from the UPS,

00:55:29   and it's still making the noise,

00:55:30   'cause some capacitor in there was slowly discharging

00:55:32   or whatever, I can't do it, hold this to your ear.

00:55:34   I'm like, hey, hold the brick.

00:55:35   It was making noise.

00:55:36   So even that little external power brick,

00:55:38   you're like, oh, I have this white little power brick

00:55:40   or whatever, it's possible to screw that up too

00:55:42   if you just have a cheap type power brick.

00:55:44   Anything can make, I hate analog electronics.

00:55:46   I wish everything was digital.

00:55:47   I know it's not the world we live in, right?

00:55:48   But you need analog electronics

00:55:50   to power the digital things,

00:55:51   but things like a power brick, they can have problems too.

00:55:55   And if that little ticking, annoying thing

00:55:57   was inside a computer, it would just drive you mad

00:56:00   because it's like, what is that noise?

00:56:01   What is that doing that?

00:56:02   Anyway, the short version is I just swapped back

00:56:06   for the previous power brick,

00:56:08   was exactly the same for the previous USB hub,

00:56:10   but this one didn't make any noise when I plugged it in.

00:56:12   So analog electronics, man, it's just nothing but trouble.

00:56:16   - Well, so far, desktop laptop seems to be winning again.

00:56:21   - Well, if your white power brick was making noise,

00:56:24   you probably wouldn't hear it when it's on the floor.

00:56:25   But I was crawling around with my ear

00:56:27   practically touching the thing.

00:56:28   I was like, no, it doesn't sound healthy to me.

00:56:30   I need to get the one that doesn't make this noise.

00:56:32   - Well, and also another benefit to the laptop lifestyle

00:56:34   is things are more modular.

00:56:36   If that white power brick starts making noise,

00:56:38   I can just replace it.

00:56:40   You know, you can't quite easily do that

00:56:42   with the power supply inside your desktop.

00:56:45   - Yeah, that's what Apple cares for.

00:56:46   Hopefully I don't have to use it.

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00:58:43   - Now we have finally gotten to the time

00:58:48   that we should talk WWDC.

00:58:49   And it is this coming Monday as we record.

00:58:52   It is just a few days away as we record on Wednesday night.

00:58:55   It is this coming Monday.

00:58:56   We should talk about our hopes, our predictions.

00:59:00   And I had a lead off question

00:59:02   that I'd like to ask both of you,

00:59:03   and let's start with Marco.

00:59:05   Why is it in person at all this year?

00:59:08   Why is this year different from other years?

00:59:10   Is it for the big splash reveal,

00:59:12   for like a Mac Pro, God help me,

00:59:14   or AR glasses, or do they just wanna dip

00:59:16   their toe in the water?

00:59:17   Like what do you think the reason is for in person?

00:59:20   - I think Apple likes in person events a lot.

00:59:23   I think they do the remote events during COVID

00:59:27   because they had to.

00:59:29   And I think they want to get back

00:59:31   to having in-person events for press and things like NWBC

00:59:35   as soon as they can, reasonably and responsibly.

00:59:37   And it's certainly up for debate whether this

00:59:40   counts as that time or not.

00:59:42   But setting that aside, I think they love the in-person events.

00:59:46   In-person events, when you have a big launch like this,

00:59:50   or whether it's something super significant,

00:59:53   like a new platform, like an AR headset,

00:59:55   or whether it's just the year of software updates,

00:59:57   That's also a big deal to them and to us.

01:00:02   And so I don't think it needs to be a major

01:00:06   hardware or platform release year

01:00:08   for them to want an in-person event

01:00:10   and for an in-person event to be really cool and fun.

01:00:12   I think it's interesting that we have this kind of hybrid

01:00:15   where the keynote is almost certainly pre-recorded

01:00:19   and so the keynote watching is going to be

01:00:22   basically a movie watching.

01:00:25   and they projected on a screen

01:00:26   and were just watching a movie.

01:00:28   That's kind of interesting.

01:00:29   But I do think they want to have in-person events.

01:00:31   I also think the more little bits and pieces we pick up

01:00:35   and they kind of trickle out,

01:00:38   the more it seems like this is also the launch party

01:00:41   for the developer center.

01:00:43   And they clearly want to show that off

01:00:46   and to officially open it up

01:00:47   and officially announce what it is,

01:00:50   what it's supposed to do long-term.

01:00:53   And they wanna have a big party to open up

01:00:55   their new developer center.

01:00:57   I think that's what this is.

01:00:59   And from the little bits and pieces we've heard

01:01:00   where it seems like it's going to be kind of a permanent

01:01:02   home for developer relations and some kind of labs

01:01:06   sort of things, and maybe they could bring in developers

01:01:10   at certain times for access to certain early hardware,

01:01:13   early software, whatever the case may be,

01:01:15   it seems like this is going to be a big thing

01:01:17   for them going forward and they want to unveil this all

01:01:21   to us at one big party, here's the developer center,

01:01:25   enjoy, here's what it's for.

01:01:26   So I think all that kind of goes into play

01:01:28   for this particular year's event.

01:01:30   That being said, it wouldn't surprise me

01:01:32   if this is also a test balloon of sorts

01:01:36   to see if all future WWDCs might be done this way.

01:01:41   Because we've talked at length all the time

01:01:43   about all the different downsides

01:01:46   of trying to wedge this conference into a city

01:01:49   with a large convention center

01:01:51   and getting everyone into all the hotels

01:01:53   and everything's so expensive for everyone.

01:01:55   And even if you fit five or 6,000 people

01:01:58   in the convention center,

01:01:59   you still are excluding thousands of other people

01:02:01   who want to come, but either can't afford to

01:02:05   or can't get a ticket or can't get there,

01:02:08   whatever the case may be.

01:02:10   And so I think it's clear over the last,

01:02:13   even before COVID, over the last few years

01:02:15   that WBC probably should change

01:02:18   in a way to make it even more and more inclusive

01:02:20   and more and more accessible to more people.

01:02:22   And they certainly did their best

01:02:24   with an in-person conference,

01:02:25   with having live stream sessions

01:02:27   and all the recordings going up super fast

01:02:29   and all the transcripts and all that stuff.

01:02:30   You know, they really amped a lot of that up

01:02:32   over those last few years of being in person,

01:02:34   but none of that compared to what they were able to do

01:02:37   since COVID with having it be full-time remote

01:02:39   with just hugely more accessible content

01:02:43   because it had to be.

01:02:44   Finally making labs accessible remotely,

01:02:47   you know, all that stuff that they added.

01:02:49   And I think this might be their vision

01:02:51   of how it goes forward.

01:02:52   Now that we can have in-person events,

01:02:55   and now that they have this new developer center

01:02:56   that seems to probably have a capacity in the hundreds

01:03:01   rather than in the thousands, at most, possibly, you know,

01:03:04   I would bet it's in the low hundreds.

01:03:07   But maybe this is part of their vision

01:03:10   of like rather than having that big event,

01:03:12   they pretty much produce the whole conference

01:03:14   as if it's remote every time,

01:03:17   and it's mostly remote,

01:03:18   but it has this small in-person component

01:03:21   that is partly for press

01:03:23   and partly for certain groups of developers

01:03:25   they wanna have out there,

01:03:27   students maybe, scholarship winners,

01:03:29   certain feature developers,

01:03:31   certain newcomers, things like that.

01:03:33   So that's I think why they're doing it,

01:03:35   and I think this is probably going to be the path forward.

01:03:39   It would greatly surprise me

01:03:41   if we ever had another WWDC in San Jose or San Francisco.

01:03:46   It reminds me a little bit of press junkets for car reviews.

01:03:50   Right, so, WWDC is run, you know,

01:03:54   it's a developer conference,

01:03:55   so Apple has a developer relations department

01:03:58   or whatever they call it,

01:03:59   it's people's job it is to interface with developers.

01:04:02   And there's a lot of overlap between that,

01:04:04   like developer relations and marketing.

01:04:07   You don't wanna call it marketing,

01:04:09   but it is a form of marketing,

01:04:10   'cause you want people to develop for your platform,

01:04:12   you want to convince them to develop for your platform,

01:04:15   you want to show them how cool your platform is,

01:04:17   how successful they can be on your platform,

01:04:18   you want to support them,

01:04:19   that's what developer relations is.

01:04:20   So it is very much a marketing type of position.

01:04:24   And when you're doing any kind of marketing,

01:04:25   like a car company that wants you to tell you about the,

01:04:28   here's the new Corvette or whatever,

01:04:29   having people in person is really important

01:04:32   because that's just the way people work.

01:04:34   You'll bring them to a beautiful place,

01:04:37   you'll show them your car,

01:04:38   you'll let a famous F1 driver drive them around a track

01:04:42   in your car, you'll let them run a drag strip,

01:04:44   You'll do all this stuff because you want to give

01:04:47   these human being journalists, press, whatever,

01:04:50   a positive experience and for them to associate

01:04:53   that positive experience with your car

01:04:55   and then hopefully go back and write something nice

01:04:57   about your car.

01:04:58   Now, it's not like any decent car journalist is gonna say,

01:05:00   well, they brought me to a beautiful place in Italy,

01:05:02   therefore I'm gonna say this car is great, right?

01:05:04   But humans being humans, there is some small amount

01:05:09   of the positive experience you had that will influence,

01:05:12   even if unconsciously, what you write about it.

01:05:14   And so it is smart if you're doing something

01:05:17   related to marketing to get people in person.

01:05:20   It is easier to impress upon them

01:05:24   that your product is good.

01:05:26   You can explain to them in person,

01:05:27   you can answer their questions there,

01:05:28   and you can give them a positive experience.

01:05:31   Way easier to do that in person than remote, right?

01:05:34   So I think anyone involved in any marketing position

01:05:37   for any product in any company always wants to get,

01:05:40   particularly the press, but even also just in this case,

01:05:43   developers, like actual people, get them to where

01:05:46   you can control their experience.

01:05:48   Get them to come to your beautiful campus

01:05:50   so that you can plan a day for them.

01:05:52   Look at that menu we just read.

01:05:53   Look at all the fun activities.

01:05:54   They're gonna have you to tour the fitness center.

01:05:55   Everyone's gonna be nice and it's just gonna be sunny

01:05:57   and beautiful 'cause it's California, right?

01:05:59   That is super important.

01:06:01   That is never gonna go away.

01:06:03   And so I feel like, you know, you would say,

01:06:06   oh, they'll just have it in person for press, right?

01:06:07   But for developer relations, they want, granted,

01:06:10   a tiny subset, but they want developers

01:06:13   to also have that experience.

01:06:14   They want someone to say, "Oh, I won the lottery

01:06:16   "for WWC to come in person, and I had such a great time,

01:06:20   "and I met some fun people, and I did cool things,

01:06:22   "and I learned a lot, and I got to eat good food."

01:06:25   That will make them feel good about developing

01:06:27   for the Apple platforms, or make them feel better

01:06:30   than they did before, make them feel better

01:06:32   than the people who just had to watch it sitting at home.

01:06:34   And you ramp that all up, it's like,

01:06:38   well, that's why WWC kept getting bigger.

01:06:40   They made it as big as they possibly could

01:06:42   without turning it into like Oracle World or whatever.

01:06:44   They didn't make it 20,000 people,

01:06:46   but they didn't keep it at like one or 200.

01:06:49   They could have, they went all the way up to like what,

01:06:50   5,500 or whatever was kind of where WWC maxed out.

01:06:54   And they didn't wanna make it any bigger than that.

01:06:55   They could have made it bigger.

01:06:56   They could afford to make it bigger.

01:06:57   They could have gone to bigger venues,

01:06:59   but they wanted to get as many developers

01:07:01   as there as possible

01:07:01   without totally destroying the conference

01:07:03   because every developer that is there

01:07:05   that still has a good time,

01:07:06   if they can provide a good experience to those developers,

01:07:08   It's a developer relations.

01:07:10   They want developers to feel good about the Apple platform.

01:07:13   So I don't think it's just gonna be press in person.

01:07:15   Yes, of course they want the press to be in person

01:07:17   and they have a whole separate experience for them.

01:07:19   They also want some developers to be in person

01:07:22   and they want it to feel special for them.

01:07:24   And I feel like a, obviously a smaller in-person presence,

01:07:27   whether it's COVID related or whether like Margot said,

01:07:30   like they'll just keep it small.

01:07:31   You're gonna feel even more special

01:07:33   if you're one of like 300 versus being one of 5,500,

01:07:36   whatever.

01:07:37   So I think there will always be an in-person component

01:07:40   when they're able to do it.

01:07:41   I don't know if they're gonna ramp back up to 5,000.

01:07:43   It really depends on who's making the calls there.

01:07:46   I know there are probably people who ran WWDC for years

01:07:49   who, if they had their choice,

01:07:50   would wanna go back to 5,000 people if they could,

01:07:54   COVID allowing some point in the future, right?

01:07:56   But there might be some people who say,

01:07:59   let's keep it around 300

01:08:00   and we'll just cycle through those 300s.

01:08:02   I think it's tougher now

01:08:03   because there are so many more developers

01:08:04   than there used to be.

01:08:06   WWDC more or less maxed out, but the number of developers

01:08:09   on our platforms just kept increasing and increasing

01:08:11   with the iOS and the iPhone and everything.

01:08:13   It's huge now.

01:08:15   It's almost like the difference between 5,300 is nothing.

01:08:18   It's percentage-wise, it's like the third decimal point

01:08:21   or something, and really, to first approximation,

01:08:24   nobody gets to go to WWDC.

01:08:26   If you consider they have how many millions of developers,

01:08:29   or how many millions of developer account?

01:08:31   So it could be they keep it small and they say,

01:08:33   percentage-wise, we're pretty much the same percentage.

01:08:35   You didn't have a chance before

01:08:36   and you don't have a chance now,

01:08:37   but the people who do come,

01:08:39   they're gonna have a good experience.

01:08:40   We're gonna make sure we have a good experience.

01:08:42   Maybe they'll always continue to have it at Apple Park

01:08:43   'cause that's an environment that they totally control

01:08:45   and they don't have to rent out

01:08:46   and they don't have to pay for box lunches.

01:08:47   So there's that.

01:08:48   (laughing)

01:08:50   - I don't know, I ask the question because I don't think,

01:08:54   and now we're getting into predictions and whatnot,

01:08:55   I don't think we're seeing any real AR glass

01:09:00   sort of announcement or release or anything like that.

01:09:04   I don't even think in all likelihood that we're going to get anything that's a strong

01:09:09   indicator or like teaser or anything like that.

01:09:12   But nevertheless, if they were to do some new thing like AR glasses, I can absolutely

01:09:21   see them saying, "Come hell or high water, we're going to have people in person to do

01:09:26   it."

01:09:27   Because we want to hear the cheers.

01:09:28   We want to hear people go nuts.

01:09:32   And so I don't think it's going to happen, but it is an easy thing for me to imagine

01:09:37   that that is why they want to do something in person.

01:09:41   But I don't know if that's realistic.

01:09:43   I don't think it is.

01:09:44   So what do we want?

01:09:45   Well, before you move on, the AR thing, right?

01:09:48   So if you think about hardware things that they've introduced to WWC, they tend not to

01:09:55   want to let the people who are attending WWC really get near them.

01:09:59   Think of the iMac Pro.

01:10:00   Think of the Mac Pro.

01:10:01   They were there and they were announced and you could see them, but you weren't even allowed

01:10:06   to touch the iMac Pro.

01:10:08   And the Mac Pro, they had people demoing them for you, but they didn't really want you to

01:10:11   use them.

01:10:12   So the idea that they're going to, you know, if they're going to introduce AR glasses,

01:10:15   it's like we want to have people there.

01:10:17   So if you're picturing people there like, "Oh, I'm going to wait in the line and I'm

01:10:20   going to strap this thing in my head and I'm going to try it out," that doesn't seem like

01:10:23   a very Apple thing to do.

01:10:25   But on the other hand, if they don't do that, it's not like you can have someone wearing

01:10:28   the headset and you know waving things around and then you get to look on a

01:10:32   screen to see what they see that doesn't give you the experience either you have

01:10:34   to actually put it on your head but I don't think Apple would want you to put

01:10:37   it on your head and if they did want you to put it on your head they'd be much

01:10:40   more likely to do that with a group of a couple hundred people and that brings up

01:10:44   another question about this by the way do it does anyone know how many people

01:10:47   have been invited to go to not press but how many like regular people have been

01:10:52   invited to go to Apple bar not at all no I don't think that information has come

01:10:56   I mean, maybe it's 5,500 people.

01:10:59   I don't know.

01:10:59   Like, we were talking about this as if it's

01:11:01   going to be a few hundred.

01:11:02   How many people can fit in Cafe Max?

01:11:04   How many people are in the ring building?

01:11:06   It's really a mystery.

01:11:07   Like, you know, you could ask all your friends

01:11:09   and maybe do an estimate and say, you know,

01:11:12   random sampling, how many people tried to apply,

01:11:14   and how many people got in.

01:11:15   But it's difficult because it's not actually random if you're

01:11:17   just asking your friends.

01:11:20   You know, it depends on what circuit you're driving.

01:11:21   Like, Paul Hudson, for example, I

01:11:22   think didn't get in until someone at Apple

01:11:25   got a clue and said, "You should invite Paul Hudson.

01:11:26   What are you doing?"

01:11:27   And he got invited.

01:11:29   So yeah, it's still a lot of questions about this,

01:11:33   but I think the in-person thing is entirely to do with

01:11:38   that you must have people in person

01:11:39   if you want to do effective marketing

01:11:41   to either developers or press,

01:11:42   and it has nothing to do with what is

01:11:45   or isn't going to be announced.

01:11:47   - Fair enough.

01:11:47   All right, so what do we want?

01:11:48   What do we want?

01:11:49   What do we expect?

01:11:50   How do you want to skin this cat?

01:11:52   Well, every WWC in recent memory,

01:11:56   there's a new version of iOS, a new version of Mac OS,

01:11:58   and also a new version of iPad OS, and maybe a new OS.

01:12:02   I didn't even put tvOS on this list.

01:12:03   I guess it's tvOS, and then Reality OS.

01:12:06   Did I miss an OS?

01:12:07   We got tvOS, Reality OS.

01:12:09   Is there another one?

01:12:10   Audio OS?

01:12:11   Watch OS.

01:12:12   Watch OS.

01:12:12   There's another one.

01:12:14   Watch OS.

01:12:15   Anyway, there are new versions of the major operating systems.

01:12:18   And every once in a while, there's

01:12:20   a new operating system like Reality OS,

01:12:21   if they do the AR thing or whatever.

01:12:23   I hope they don't call it ROS.

01:12:25   I think the code names in all the code

01:12:26   is that it's reality OS.

01:12:28   But anyway, what do we want from like,

01:12:30   let's start with the big one.

01:12:31   What do we want from a new iOS, from a new Mac OS?

01:12:34   Like, do we have anything that we really want

01:12:36   out of any of these OSs?

01:12:37   Or is it just more like,

01:12:38   well, whatever they give us will be nice.

01:12:39   Don't screw it up and fix all the bugs.

01:12:43   - That.

01:12:44   I think for iOS, something I have been fiddling with

01:12:48   a little bit more recently is shortcuts,

01:12:50   both on iOS and iPadOS.

01:12:52   And I like to create shortcuts to control

01:12:57   kind of system level things or things in the house.

01:13:00   So a couple of examples of this is I've been dabbling

01:13:03   with tail scale recently, which is very, very interesting.

01:13:06   And maybe we can talk about that another time,

01:13:07   but I've been dabbling with it

01:13:09   and I wanted to control tail scale a little bit more

01:13:13   and control VPN settings on the phone a little bit more

01:13:17   'cause tail scale is sort of, but not really a VPN.

01:13:19   there's no real good hook in shortcuts to control VPN settings and

01:13:23   Additionally, I wanted to you know

01:13:27   I've been doing a lot of Apple Fitness Plus workouts recently has been talked about a lot recently and I have a shortcut that

01:13:34   when the

01:13:36   When I stop exercising

01:13:39   Then it will automatically turn the ceiling fan in the living room off if it's if it's not hot outside

01:13:46   Which is pretty slick, but I also wanted to be able to say okay

01:13:50   Well when I start a workout and you see that the Apple TV is on and playing Apple Fitness

01:13:55   Then go ahead and turn the fan on but there's no way to do that

01:13:59   Like there's no way to query what the state of the Apple TV is or not

01:14:03   And not any good way of doing it anyhow

01:14:05   And so I feel like more robust hooks for shortcuts would be really really cool

01:14:11   And I can't believe I'm saying that because I mean I've used shortcuts since it came out since it was workflow

01:14:16   even, but I'm not a particularly robust user of it, but I've been getting into it a lot

01:14:21   more recently, and I've found it really is quite powerful if you want it to be. But I

01:14:25   wish it could get its tentacles into more places. And similarly, similar idea, widgets.

01:14:31   I like widgets. I use them on both iPad and on my phone as well, but I do wish that they

01:14:38   were even just marginally interactive. And on certain size widgets you can have a couple

01:14:43   touch targets or something like that. But I wish they could be updated more frequently and not by

01:14:49   magic, but by the widget being asked if it wants to update or perhaps being told to update.

01:14:55   I haven't looked at how the widget system works in a while. Maybe Marco, you have more insight

01:14:58   onto this. But I wish they were a little more interactive and a little more robust, and I think

01:15:04   that both of those would be really cool. I'm sure there's other things I'm not thinking of. I mean,

01:15:08   I mean bug fixes, reliability, et cetera,

01:15:10   but recently, just this is a complete recency bias,

01:15:13   but recently those are a couple things

01:15:14   that have ground my gears.

01:15:16   I don't know, Marco, what are you looking for in iOS?

01:15:18   - What I want most from iOS is just more maturation

01:15:23   of the frameworks and the tools.

01:15:25   And the good thing is that's almost always what happens.

01:15:27   So I think I'm very likely to get that.

01:15:29   You know, like widgets,

01:15:32   the widget system is actually pretty good.

01:15:33   You know, some of the rumors are that we might be able

01:15:35   to get them onto the lock screen on the phone

01:15:36   and that would be great.

01:15:37   I've wanted some kind of additional customization

01:15:41   of the iPhone lock screen for a while now.

01:15:44   Any kind of widget advancements to make them

01:15:46   potentially slightly interactive would be very nice.

01:15:50   That being said, based on the way they work,

01:15:53   I actually don't expect that to happen.

01:15:55   - Same, yeah.

01:15:57   - Because they seem like they just wanna be

01:15:59   like these serialized pre-rendered SwiftUI views

01:16:02   and to have any kind of, like, you know,

01:16:05   when your widget's showing on screen,

01:16:07   none of your code is running.

01:16:08   Like the OS is basically showing the timeline of views

01:16:12   that you have given it, but the reason why widgets

01:16:15   don't have active buttons and things in them

01:16:17   is that your code is not running when those

01:16:19   are on screen necessarily.

01:16:20   And I think that side of how they're implemented

01:16:24   is likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

01:16:27   So I'm not expecting interactive widgets really.

01:16:31   But maybe certain ways to make them a little bit more lively,

01:16:35   certain advances in things like the timeline views,

01:16:38   maybe some ability to use some basic animations,

01:16:40   like in a controllable way.

01:16:43   That kind of stuff could be nice.

01:16:45   But for the most part in iOS, what I want is,

01:16:48   you know, make Xcode better, make SwiftUI better.

01:16:52   Right now, using-- - Oh, amen.

01:16:53   - I mean, using SwiftUI on iOS is still

01:16:57   a very frustrating rollercoaster.

01:17:01   When you're on the happy path and you're doing things

01:17:03   the way they do it on the conference slides,

01:17:05   It works great.

01:17:06   And the second it touches the real world,

01:17:08   you just slam into walls everywhere.

01:17:11   And it's very difficult to use Swift UI in the real world

01:17:17   without hitting major problems that

01:17:19   require huge amounts of deep dives and hacks

01:17:22   and workarounds and googling and everything else that

01:17:25   is a very frustrating time waste and often requires

01:17:29   you to rip out parts of Swift UI and rewrite stuff in UIKit.

01:17:32   This framework is now a couple of years old.

01:17:34   it's still very, very young.

01:17:36   Please make SwiftUI, SwiftUI significantly better.

01:17:39   And I think, and I hope they will.

01:17:42   So that's pretty much it for me for iOS.

01:17:45   - Yeah, I'd like to build though

01:17:46   on what you said about SwiftUI,

01:17:47   because I have had a pretty decent experience

01:17:51   all told with SwiftUI,

01:17:52   almost the entirety of masquerade as SwiftUI,

01:17:54   and it has caused me to relearn a lot of things

01:17:58   and to think of things differently.

01:17:59   By and large, it is pretty good,

01:18:02   But SwiftUI smells so deeply to me

01:18:06   like it is being dogfooded some more than WatchKit was.

01:18:10   Sorry, trigger warning, Marco.

01:18:11   (laughing)

01:18:13   But it doesn't seem like it's being properly dogfooded,

01:18:16   but dog, I don't know.

01:18:17   - Dogfed?

01:18:18   - Dogfed, right.

01:18:19   (laughing)

01:18:20   I'm not sure where to go from here,

01:18:21   but you know what I'm saying.

01:18:22   I feel like a lot more dogfooding would go a long way.

01:18:27   And it really seems like SwiftUI is one of those things

01:18:31   where as an academic adventure,

01:18:34   it is interesting and fairly robust,

01:18:36   but as soon as you try to do real world things with it,

01:18:40   it starts to fall down, just like you were saying,

01:18:42   it starts to fall down relatively quickly

01:18:45   and relatively spectacularly.

01:18:46   Again, I say that, and I'm being a little hyperbolic,

01:18:49   because Masquerade is SwiftUI and it does work,

01:18:52   and I did have to jump through hoops,

01:18:53   but it wasn't completely egregious,

01:18:55   but it was way more than I should have

01:18:57   for a framework that's already a couple of years old.

01:19:00   So I could not agree more that I want to see

01:19:03   like a deep concentration on SwiftUI

01:19:06   and I want to have them tell us,

01:19:09   like I think they made it public

01:19:10   like that the weather app rewrite was SwiftUI.

01:19:15   What they didn't make public

01:19:15   and what we have heard through the grapevine

01:19:17   is that it was a freaking mess.

01:19:19   Like frame rates were garbage

01:19:22   and they had to do a bunch of fixes

01:19:23   specifically to make the weather app work better.

01:19:25   But one way or another,

01:19:27   I think a lot more dogfooding on SwiftUI

01:19:29   would be really, really healthy

01:19:31   and help us do our jobs better.

01:19:34   And so often with Apple,

01:19:35   they'll throw something across the fence and say,

01:19:37   "Here, this is good enough, right?

01:19:38   "Just be thankful for it and buzz off."

01:19:40   And in reality, it's just not.

01:19:42   And so I really, really, really hope

01:19:45   that the State of the Union is basically,

01:19:47   here's all the ways that we've made SwiftUI better.

01:19:49   - Yeah, because SwiftUI, I mean,

01:19:51   there are just so many very large shortcomings

01:19:54   and frustrations with it in use right now.

01:19:56   Like, yeah, we need significant improvements in the API front.

01:19:59   We need a ton of bug fixes.

01:20:01   We need tons of new ways we can control

01:20:03   behaviors and appearances.

01:20:05   We need major advances in the tooling side of it.

01:20:09   SwiftUI right now has--

01:20:12   not only does it crush your machine performance-wise,

01:20:15   but when things go wrong, you get these really terrible error

01:20:19   messages or error behaviors that are inscrutable.

01:20:23   And almost none of it's documented.

01:20:25   almost none of it's discoverable.

01:20:27   The process of like, so you have a SwiftUI view,

01:20:30   which you know, you have all this like dot chaining

01:20:32   going on to do pretty much everything.

01:20:35   How do you know what dot chain you can apply where?

01:20:38   Well, the correct thing is for the tooling to assist you

01:20:41   with various auto complete things and good documentation.

01:20:46   And the reality is the tooling breaks constantly

01:20:49   and doesn't really help you very much.

01:20:50   The documentation is almost non-existent

01:20:52   and very kind of abstract.

01:20:54   There's not really like examples anywhere.

01:20:56   And so everything's very abstract and hard to know

01:20:59   what to look for.

01:21:01   So the answer really is you have to Google everything.

01:21:04   Like everything.

01:21:05   And the Google results you get are not Apple's documentation,

01:21:08   because it mostly doesn't exist, it isn't helpful.

01:21:10   What you're actually getting is like various Swift by Sandel

01:21:14   posts and stuff like that, because everyone

01:21:16   is asking these questions.

01:21:17   And they're so incredibly non-obvious

01:21:20   when you're in the coding environment

01:21:21   and in Apple's documentation and everything.

01:21:23   So you have to go to blog posts and Stack Overflow and everything because it makes no

01:21:29   sense.

01:21:30   It's not discoverable at all.

01:21:31   In the same way that like, I feel like all these dot chaining operators in SwiftUI, they

01:21:37   have the discoverability problem of swipe gestures and pinch gestures in touch screen

01:21:42   interfaces.

01:21:43   It's like, how do you do this thing?

01:21:44   Oh, well, you just type in dot accessibility modifier or whatever.

01:21:47   It's like, okay, but how would I have ever known that if you didn't tell me?

01:21:52   that's visible nowhere.

01:21:54   And it's all for the same goal of like,

01:21:55   we have these pretty, these code samples

01:21:58   that look so simple, they're so visually simple.

01:22:01   And it's just like, you know,

01:22:02   touch UIs that are super minimal and all gestural

01:22:05   are so simple looking and clean, right?

01:22:08   But then, okay, well how do I use it?

01:22:09   Oh, you gotta Google for it.

01:22:11   So I really, and I think a lot of that

01:22:15   is just inherent to both what's currently

01:22:17   in fashion and software development

01:22:19   and also the design of SwiftUI in general.

01:22:22   And so I don't expect that to change at a deep level,

01:22:24   which is unfortunate 'cause it needs to,

01:22:26   but at least within the bounds

01:22:29   of what they are likely to do,

01:22:31   I would hope for at least some slight improvement

01:22:34   in those areas.

01:22:35   But that being said, even that,

01:22:38   even hoping for slight improvement given reality,

01:22:42   I think that's a tall order.

01:22:43   So my more realistic expectation is

01:22:46   at least give me more dot modifiers and crap

01:22:49   that I'll have to Google that will allow me to do the behaviors I need to do in my apps

01:22:53   that will avoid me having to dive into UIKit.

01:22:55   Since we're in the SwiftUI corner here, I think it's something I've been stewing about.

01:23:00   I almost wrote something about it, but I didn't feel like I could nail it down to the point

01:23:02   where I could write something.

01:23:03   But I nailed it down to the point where I can blabber about it in a podcast.

01:23:07   You mentioned the dot chaining and everything like that.

01:23:10   But SwiftUI isn't just syntactic sugar for the normal things that you would do in UIKit.

01:23:16   Its whole point is that it's declarative instead of imperative.

01:23:18   you describe the way things are rather than saying,

01:23:22   if this happens, then do that or whatever.

01:23:24   And sometimes when you parachute,

01:23:26   someone is used to messing with UI kit into that environment,

01:23:29   they sort of re recreate imperative programming

01:23:32   by sprinkling state on top of their Swift UI views

01:23:34   and adding conditionals inside them

01:23:36   and basically doing imperative programming

01:23:37   in a declarative way.

01:23:38   It's like, look, I have if it's the same thing.

01:23:40   And now I just got to do is make sure the right state

01:23:42   gets sprinkled down to the right places.

01:23:43   And it's just like I'm writing imperative code,

01:23:45   but you're not.

01:23:46   It's trying to be declarative

01:23:47   and you end up making the structure

01:23:48   that gets fed to this larger thing.

01:23:50   And that's not just fashion, there is a point to that.

01:23:52   They emphasized this in the first round of SwiftUI

01:23:55   and things like that the machinery

01:23:57   that runs your declarative thing,

01:23:58   the fact that you don't have to write the machinery,

01:24:00   the fact that you can't write the machinery,

01:24:01   has advantages in terms of fewer bugs

01:24:04   because you're just essentially creating a structure

01:24:07   and then the machine, assuming the machine

01:24:08   is relatively bug-free, runs your structure

01:24:10   and you don't have to worry about maintaining state

01:24:12   and everything, it all happens automatically,

01:24:13   and then they can compress all your views

01:24:15   into one thing for efficiency purposes.

01:24:16   Like there are advantages, it's not just,

01:24:18   oh, declarative's in style, let's do that.

01:24:20   There are technical advantages to it,

01:24:21   which they touted heavily.

01:24:23   Those advantages are real, but of course,

01:24:25   what you just all discussed is,

01:24:26   okay, but there are also disadvantages.

01:24:28   And when I look at the disadvantages,

01:24:30   what SwiftUI looks like to me is

01:24:32   another declarative style technology

01:24:35   that I have a lot of experience with

01:24:36   that lots of people would describe

01:24:38   exactly the same way Marco just described SwiftUI,

01:24:41   which is I can't figure out how to do what I want.

01:24:44   The documentation is not useful for me.

01:24:47   There aren't enough examples,

01:24:48   and anytime I wanna do anything, I have to Google.

01:24:50   And the name of that technology is,

01:24:52   Chat Room, anyway, 7 seconds away,

01:24:53   it'll take too long. - CSS?

01:24:54   - CSS, that's right!

01:24:56   Cascading Style Sheets.

01:24:57   So here's the question about-- - No, CSS has way better

01:24:59   documentation out there with SwiftUI.

01:25:02   - Well, CSS, CSS1 came out in 1996,

01:25:05   so it's a little bit older than SwiftUI.

01:25:07   So here's the question about SwiftUI, right?

01:25:09   So it could be, two possible things could be here, right?

01:25:13   CSS today now is amazing,

01:25:14   but still people need to Google for how to center stuff

01:25:16   vertically or whatever.

01:25:17   Anyway, SwiftUI, some people look at it

01:25:24   and say no declarative UI description

01:25:29   system is ever going to be sufficient to write

01:25:31   a full featured application.

01:25:32   Because inevitably in any good application,

01:25:34   there's some point where you want

01:25:35   to do some weird ass thing that you have no way to declare.

01:25:38   Right, to Marco's point, there's not a dot modifier for it.

01:25:42   and you need to basically say, from this piece of code,

01:25:45   when this things happen,

01:25:46   I'm gonna run some regular old style imperative code

01:25:50   to reach all over there and do a thing, right?

01:25:52   'Cause I just need to do that.

01:25:53   And the designers didn't think of it, but I need to do it.

01:25:56   And if your framework is imperative,

01:25:58   it's real easy to add three more lines of your own code,

01:26:00   override a handler, do an extra thing.

01:26:01   Like that fits right in the system.

01:26:03   That's how the whole system works.

01:26:05   You get to write your own code

01:26:07   and your code looks a lot like the framework code.

01:26:09   it's just you overrode it and called super or whatever,

01:26:12   but in a declarative system,

01:26:14   yes, you can write your own declarative things,

01:26:15   but it's way weirder,

01:26:16   and sometimes you can't get it

01:26:18   to the machinery you wanna get it.

01:26:19   So some people would say,

01:26:20   SwiftUI is never going to go all the way,

01:26:22   you're never gonna get a top to bottom SwiftUI app

01:26:25   like they're trying to make here,

01:26:25   you're always gonna need some imperative code

01:26:27   or some way to get at the engine

01:26:28   or some way to extend the engine,

01:26:29   and that's the way SwiftUI needs to evolve.

01:26:32   Or that it'll never be good enough for a whole system

01:26:35   because declarative is really good for making views

01:26:37   and it has some lots of advantages,

01:26:38   but it's never gonna be the whole app.

01:26:40   But the other possibility,

01:26:42   and both of these things can be true at the same time,

01:26:44   is CSS, for the longest time,

01:26:46   frustrated people to hell because

01:26:49   you could do a lot of stuff,

01:26:51   but you would never think of the way you had to do it.

01:26:53   Like vertical horizontal centering of elements,

01:26:56   making things equal width, but not much wider than this.

01:26:59   And there was a long period of time

01:27:01   when there are ways to do that in CSS

01:27:02   that was like wizardry that made no freaking sense.

01:27:05   But then they had min width and max width.

01:27:07   Wow, that made everything a lot easier, it didn't.

01:27:09   These hacks are darn neat, right?

01:27:11   But still, lots of stuff was hard, right?

01:27:13   And again, 1996, CSS1 spec, or whatever year that was,

01:27:17   it took a long time to get to where we are now.

01:27:20   What is the SwiftUI equivalent of Flexbox,

01:27:22   to give just one example?

01:27:24   If you don't know all these CSS terms,

01:27:25   maybe this is not landing for you,

01:27:26   but if you are a web developer,

01:27:28   think of how much harder it was to do the things

01:27:30   that Flexbox does before Flexbox.

01:27:33   What is the equivalent of Flexbox in SwiftUI?

01:27:36   What's the equivalent of box sizing border box in SwiftUI?

01:27:39   What's the equivalent of min and max width in SwiftUI?

01:27:43   Now, granted, it doesn't map well

01:27:44   into SwiftUI has a lot of the things

01:27:46   that CSS didn't have for years and years,

01:27:48   but there are absolutely situations in SwiftUI

01:27:50   that remind me totally of how hard it was to do crap in CSS

01:27:54   before quote unquote modern CSS,

01:27:56   or if you couldn't rely on Flexbox being present.

01:28:00   I'm at the point now where I will just,

01:28:02   when I'm doing like the ATP store page,

01:28:04   I refuse to do it the old fashioned way

01:28:06   to support some old browsers.

01:28:07   I'm sorry if our store page looks crappy to you,

01:28:09   but most modern browsers actually do support Flexbox.

01:28:12   So I use it, right?

01:28:12   And it makes everything so much easier than it was before.

01:28:15   I know how to do it the old way, but it's a headache,

01:28:17   and that's where I feel like SwiftUI is.

01:28:19   And so the question is,

01:28:20   does SwiftUI just need its Flexbox moment?

01:28:22   Does it just need the new set of operations and operators

01:28:26   and remodeling and rethinking of how a major component works?

01:28:30   Because box sizing is a big part of CSS,

01:28:32   and they've taken several runs at box sizing

01:28:34   to try to get it to match the mental model of the programmer.

01:28:37   So it could be that SwiftUI just needs a few more iterations

01:28:40   on that, of them figuring out how people--

01:28:44   how can we make SwiftUI better match how people

01:28:46   think about doing things?

01:28:47   But on the other side is, but maybe no declarative system

01:28:50   like SwiftUI is ever going to be able to do

01:28:53   all the things we need a GUI framework to do,

01:28:55   and there will always need to be an imperative framework.

01:28:57   And so we should decide, figure out, what are we doing here?

01:29:01   does UIKit continue forever in parallel track with SwiftUI?

01:29:05   Is SwiftUI just a view system for UIKit?

01:29:07   Can, you know, I know they bridge together really well.

01:29:11   So does AppKit and SwiftUI, like it's nice,

01:29:13   you can bridge them, but it's not,

01:29:15   it's not a compelling developer story

01:29:16   until you explain to people, so we just,

01:29:18   did we just continue like this forever,

01:29:19   where our apps are a hodgepodge of UIKit and SwiftUI,

01:29:23   whichever is the least frustrating,

01:29:25   and by the way, half of these places that are UIKit

01:29:27   started as SwiftUI until we hit a wall

01:29:28   and had to turn back.

01:29:29   That's not a great experience.

01:29:31   So, SwiftUI, some people look at it and say,

01:29:33   "Oh, it's like three or five or whatever,

01:29:35   "I'm a years old, it should be mature by now."

01:29:37   But if you look at CSS,

01:29:38   I can't do the math in my head because I'm bad at math,

01:29:41   but it was around a long time before it was not maddening.

01:29:44   And it's arguably still kind of maddening.

01:29:46   But SwiftUI does look a lot like CSS to me,

01:29:52   for good and for ill.

01:29:53   CSS has the advantage of being like,

01:29:56   not owned by a single vendor,

01:29:57   And so it kind of won by default because it's the way we style things on the web.

01:30:02   So tough luck.

01:30:03   And we all just worked on it until it was less sucky.

01:30:06   But SwiftUI does not have that advantage.

01:30:07   SwiftUI is not even the only framework within a single company's thing.

01:30:11   There's many other choices.

01:30:12   So it kind of has to like win a little bit on the merits.

01:30:14   And if it is not a plus for Apple's platform, then like, why are they even doing it?

01:30:20   Like, are you just annoying your existing developers, not attracting any new ones?

01:30:24   The whole promise of SwiftUI is that it's a better way to develop,

01:30:27   that it would attract developers for your platform.

01:30:29   And right now, I feel like it's not quite doing that job.

01:30:32   -Well, I mean, when Swift --

01:30:34   It's such a cliché and common thing to say.

01:30:36   When Swift UI works --

01:30:38   That's a poor way of phrasing it, I guess.

01:30:40   When you're doing things that Swift UI is happy with,

01:30:43   it is amazing.

01:30:45   And I am a terrible designer,

01:30:47   but I can make things that look, I think,

01:30:49   pretty decent using Swift UI,

01:30:51   whereas doing the same thing in UIKit is difficult for me.

01:30:54   I guess I'm a novice level.

01:30:56   iOS developer, I don't know, but there are things that I find--

01:31:00   - It's certainly more verbose.

01:31:01   There's more moving parts, you know, like it's, yes,

01:31:04   but you know, it's like Margaret said,

01:31:06   after you make that thing and you're like,

01:31:08   whenever you're doing this tutorial,

01:31:09   it's like, "Now add an icon, and now do this,"

01:31:11   and then like, if you, like, when you're with a new developer

01:31:14   and say you were showing them a UI kit

01:31:15   and you're going through tutorials, like,

01:31:17   "Now make a table view, and now add an icon next to it,

01:31:19   and now make the every third one red,"

01:31:21   and you know, like, whatever, you're just doing things,

01:31:23   and then at a certain point, the person you're teaching

01:31:25   and we'll go, you know, it would be cool,

01:31:26   like I think this would look better

01:31:28   if we lined up the baseline of this text with that text.

01:31:31   And if you like it, you can do it.

01:31:32   And in SwiftUI, it's like, nope, sorry.

01:31:34   Like, you have to rewrite the entire SwiftUI engine

01:31:38   to do that because they have no idea

01:31:39   where each other's baselines are

01:31:40   and it's basically impossible to give up.

01:31:42   Whereas that's not true.

01:31:43   - It is something you can do.

01:31:44   In fact, Paul Hudson has a post about it that I've read.

01:31:46   - I'm just making an example.

01:31:47   - I know, I take your point.

01:31:48   - You know the thing of like making equal size buttons

01:31:51   with the widest one being as wide as the longest label?

01:31:53   Like there shouldn't be a tutorial page for that.

01:31:54   That should be so easy to do. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:31:57   No, I agree.

01:31:58   And I think SwiftUI has potential,

01:32:01   and I see potential in SwiftUI,

01:32:03   and I really believe, and maybe this is a false hero,

01:32:08   but I really believe if Apple had to make their stuff

01:32:12   using SwiftUI, suddenly they'd face palm and say,

01:32:15   "Oh, oh, this sucks.

01:32:17   "Oh, we gotta make this, this, this, this, this, this, this,

01:32:20   "and this all way better in order to make this workable."

01:32:23   - You already mentioned the weather app.

01:32:24   Like they are dog fooding, just not enough.

01:32:26   But I feel like that's why SwiftUI has gotten better

01:32:29   to the degree that it has,

01:32:30   the little amount of dog fooding they're doing.

01:32:32   But it's a bad idea for them to dog food everything,

01:32:36   you know, all at once, right?

01:32:37   Doing the weather app is a good first dog fooding.

01:32:41   Let's not tell them to just like, you know,

01:32:43   redo every app in SwiftUI.

01:32:44   Like they did, what is it, Notification Center

01:32:47   or those widget things or whatever.

01:32:49   Those still annoy me.

01:32:49   I think the mouseover stuff in SwiftUI is still broken.

01:32:51   That's why I mouse over my notification things

01:32:53   and it'll show the X to close it,

01:32:55   but then when I go to click on the little thing,

01:32:57   like to complete the reminder,

01:32:58   that button will disappear.

01:32:59   Does this happen to you as well?

01:33:00   - No, I don't think so.

01:33:01   - My faith in the mouseover abilities

01:33:03   of SwiftUI is very low.

01:33:04   But yeah, I think they will be doing more dogfooding,

01:33:09   but I'm not sure you can just say,

01:33:10   you just need to dogfood everything,

01:33:12   'cause then all they're gonna do

01:33:13   is make all their apps buggy.

01:33:14   See, also shortcuts for the Mac, right?

01:33:16   Like, do you want them to dogfood before it's ready?

01:33:18   They have to balance the dogfooding

01:33:21   with SwiftUI's team ability to make their framework better.

01:33:23   And that's where I get to the question about SwiftUI.

01:33:25   Is this an inherently limited approach

01:33:28   that is never going to be able to solve

01:33:29   more than 80% of the problems, in which case

01:33:31   you need to have an imperative story alongside it,

01:33:34   or are we just waiting for the flexbox moment?

01:33:36   - Going back to a couple things you said,

01:33:38   so on the Mac, I think part of the problem

01:33:40   we saw with shortcuts in the Mac,

01:33:42   and I think we've seen echoes of this

01:33:45   with lots of software developers who have tried

01:33:47   to use SwiftUI for non-trivial Mac apps,

01:33:50   it seems like the Mac implementation of SwiftUI

01:33:53   is significantly less mature and less usable

01:33:57   than it is on iOS and watchOS.

01:33:59   And I think, yeah, that makes sense in the sense that

01:34:02   we know this is a framework that was born on watchOS

01:34:05   and that then the other platforms kind of,

01:34:07   it kind of moved into them later in its development

01:34:11   and it's no secret that the Mac software stack

01:34:16   is a pretty low priority for Apple.

01:34:19   even though the Mac is having a pretty great

01:34:21   renaissance right now, Mac OS still gets way less

01:34:25   time and effort put into it and still seems to have

01:34:28   way more bugs than iOS does.

01:34:31   And so a cutting edge framework that is used

01:34:35   for almost nothing on Mac OS that is mostly

01:34:38   being developed on other platforms,

01:34:40   that's, I think that's just gonna be a low priority

01:34:43   for Apple for the foreseeable future.

01:34:44   And so Swift UI on Mac OS is pretty rough.

01:34:49   SwiftUI on iOS is decent, and SwiftUI on WatchOS,

01:34:54   where it was born, is pretty great.

01:34:57   And I think part of the reason why is that SwiftUI

01:34:59   on WatchOS, there's a reason why this kind of framework

01:35:02   works really well on WatchOS.

01:35:03   It's a much smaller problem surface,

01:35:06   that you have this smaller device,

01:35:08   it's way more constrained, there is no better UI framework

01:35:13   to drop down to for us, so it's kind of the only choice,

01:35:16   and also all of the limitations of it

01:35:19   are things that you run into way less often on watchOS

01:35:21   because you're not trying to customize

01:35:23   every single little detail of the navigation bar

01:35:26   or whatever, like most of those things don't exist on watchOS

01:35:28   and so it's a very simple problem space

01:35:31   and Switch UI covers it very, very well.

01:35:33   On iOS, it's much more problem surface to cover

01:35:37   and it seems less mature and there's all these,

01:35:40   so many other edge cases to consider

01:35:42   and so what I think though is like the reason

01:35:46   why we all keep trying to climb up this mountain,

01:35:51   even though we keep getting killed.

01:35:53   (laughing)

01:35:54   It's not like, the mountain doesn't just gently ask us

01:35:57   to leave, it just kills us.

01:35:59   But the reason why we keep climbing up this stupid mountain

01:36:02   is because when SwiftUI works, it's really nice.

01:36:07   - Oh, it's the best.

01:36:08   - Like, that's why we keep going through all this pain.

01:36:11   I'm not saying that this is the wrong approach, it's not.

01:36:15   And I'm not saying that I don't see the value in this.

01:36:17   I do.

01:36:19   I see it all the time.

01:36:19   That's why I keep trying.

01:36:21   Because I want the value it provides.

01:36:24   And when it works, it's amazing,

01:36:28   but we really need to dramatically increase

01:36:31   the rate at which it works for us

01:36:33   and start tackling some of these big, hairy, hard problems

01:36:37   about things like discoverability, documentation,

01:36:40   performance, tooling, and just covering way more

01:36:43   the edge cases that we cover now.

01:36:45   Well, I'm sorry, we got sidetracked.

01:36:48   Yeah, pulling back out to the whole OS question here, I think a broader OS question that is

01:36:52   tangentially related to SwiftUI is something we've discussed extensively on past programs,

01:36:58   specifically related to the Mac, is what is the Mac development API story?

01:37:01   You got Catalyst, you got SwiftUI, you got AppKit.

01:37:06   What's the deal?

01:37:09   That needs to be more coherent.

01:37:10   And on iOS it seems like the UI kit and SwiftUI, it's not a dichotomy, but what is the deal

01:37:17   with that?

01:37:18   Is that parallel forever?

01:37:19   Is that SwiftUI eventually taking over everything?

01:37:22   What is the plan?

01:37:23   It's a much more dire situation on the Mac because AppKit is getting no love and Catalyst

01:37:27   is just the UI kit in a different place.

01:37:30   It's got its own SwiftUI problems.

01:37:31   There was the 12.4 update that apparently broke everybody's existing, shipping SwiftUI

01:37:35   app, so making all the labels disappear in their Catalyst apps on the Mac.

01:37:38   We saw that happen to, what?

01:37:39   I think James Thompson's app had that happen,

01:37:42   Steve Trout and Smith had it happen to his app as well.

01:37:45   That, you can't do that.

01:37:46   You can't break people's users and apps in a point update.

01:37:48   So I feel like the API story on Mac OS for sure

01:37:53   and maybe a little bit on iOS,

01:37:55   this is not the year that they're probably

01:37:57   gonna make it more coherent,

01:37:58   but that's kind of a long-term plan

01:37:59   that I wanna see them at least moving in that direction

01:38:01   and sort of rationalizing that.

01:38:03   But for the most part, when I look at this OS list,

01:38:06   most of these OSes with the exception of Reality OS,

01:38:09   'cause who knows what that even is gonna be.

01:38:11   I would say they're mostly all moving in the right direction

01:38:14   is just complaints about the speed.

01:38:16   Obviously iPad OS is moving in the right direction

01:38:18   so slowly that we're pulling our hair out, right?

01:38:20   We want more power, we want more flexibility.

01:38:23   We get that, you know, in fits and starts,

01:38:25   I think keyboard and cursor control was a big leap forward,

01:38:28   but it's just, we all want more.

01:38:29   But no one's gonna say it's moving in the wrong direction.

01:38:32   Like if you look at iPad OS over the course of it,

01:38:34   entire existence as a named thing,

01:38:36   it's been getting better in the ways

01:38:38   we want it to get better just more slowly.

01:38:40   And every other OS that you list, including even macOS,

01:38:43   for the most part is moving in the right direction.

01:38:46   Again, two steps forward, one step back, shortcuts on Mac,

01:38:49   thumbs up, shortcuts on Mac, the app, thumbs down, right?

01:38:52   So give and take.

01:38:54   The new notifications, dog fooding, Swift UI,

01:38:57   that's a little bit janky, but you know,

01:38:59   like things are kind of moving in the right direction,

01:39:02   getting a little bit better, adding features.

01:39:05   And so if I look at most of these OS projects,

01:39:07   They just do a year where every OS gets some new set of features,

01:39:10   a fancier lock screen on iOS, some new stuff on watchOS.

01:39:14   Hey, third-party watch faces, why not this year, anytime now?

01:39:17   iPadOS gets some more features for flexibility,

01:39:20   just not as much as people want.

01:39:21   Mac OS gets a little bit nicer, fewer bugs.

01:39:24   It's like even tvOS for the most part,

01:39:27   when they add features to tvOS,

01:39:29   there are features that we say, "Yeah,

01:39:31   please use the frame rate matching and better HDR support,"

01:39:34   and not that they advance rapidly.

01:39:36   I think directionally, all these OSs,

01:39:38   none of them are on the wrong path.

01:39:40   Some would argue maybe iPad OS is on the wrong,

01:39:42   but I think it's on the right path.

01:39:44   It's just going so incredibly slowly

01:39:45   that it's just annoying us.

01:39:46   So I'm happy for all of them to move forward.

01:39:50   What I would like, in the direction they're already going,

01:39:52   what I would like though is fewer steps back.

01:39:56   Can we just get some clean wins?

01:39:57   For example, if shortcuts didn't come to the Mac

01:39:59   and the app hadn't been terrible,

01:40:00   that would have been better, right?

01:40:02   Or if some new feature comes out

01:40:04   but doesn't bring with it a bunch of bugs,

01:40:06   or existing bugs from two OSs ago don't get fixed,

01:40:10   crap like that makes it otherwise good year

01:40:14   going along the paths they've made for themselves,

01:40:16   just makes everyone feel worse about it, right?

01:40:19   And for many years, we've always like sort of bargained

01:40:23   with the mythical Apple saying like,

01:40:25   can we just do an update where you just fix bugs?

01:40:27   I don't need any features or whatever,

01:40:28   but really this is all this is saying is

01:40:31   like fewer steps back.

01:40:32   You do have to take some steps forward.

01:40:34   You should add features, you should add refinements.

01:40:36   Feel free to drop apps that aren't important anymore,

01:40:39   but please, fewer steps back, fewer stumbles,

01:40:43   fix some old broken stuff.

01:40:46   I feel like we can get that this year out of all these OSs.

01:40:48   And reality OS is gonna be a big distraction

01:40:51   'cause it'll be brand new and who knows what it will be

01:40:53   and it's tightly tied to hardware

01:40:55   that may or may not be a flaw plate.

01:40:56   So that's a big question mark.

01:40:58   But the whole rest of the stable of the OSs,

01:41:00   just keep doing what you're doing,

01:41:02   just do it a little bit better.

01:41:03   (laughing)

01:41:06   - Yeah, I agree.

01:41:07   So Marco, are we gonna see a headset?

01:41:10   - I think it's a crap shoot.

01:41:11   I mean, the rumors have all pretty much consolidated

01:41:14   on saying, whoops, we were wrong,

01:41:16   actually it's not coming yet.

01:41:18   Which is funny, 'cause like two weeks ago

01:41:20   they were saying it's definitely coming, get ready, you know?

01:41:23   So, you know, we'll see.

01:41:24   But I don't know, I think at this point,

01:41:28   every year that goes by, we always say,

01:41:32   it feels like the headset's getting pretty close.

01:41:34   Maybe this is the year of the headset.

01:41:35   And then after the conference passes and we don't get it,

01:41:38   we say, well yeah, I guess it was too early.

01:41:41   So we'll see.

01:41:42   I mean, again, I think whatever happens there

01:41:46   or doesn't happen there,

01:41:48   we don't know how that's going to end yet,

01:41:50   as Jon was just saying.

01:41:52   It could be a flop, it could be a really early thing

01:41:55   that takes a while to really warm up.

01:41:58   Somewhat similar to the way the watch did.

01:42:00   It could be, it could have been like the iPad,

01:42:02   which that's a whole thing.

01:42:03   I mean, by the way, we should,

01:42:05   we gotta mention Federico's story before I forget.

01:42:09   First of all, Federico's an amazing writer,

01:42:12   and this is just a masterpiece.

01:42:14   So what we're talking about is Federico Faticci

01:42:16   on Mac stories, wrote this big article a few days ago,

01:42:20   that he has been known as not only an iPad power user,

01:42:25   I would say the iPad power user. (laughs)

01:42:29   Like, he is the iPad Pro.

01:42:31   If there's a human version of what is the iPad Pro,

01:42:36   who is the iPad Pro?

01:42:37   It's Federico Faticci.

01:42:39   He has been using an iPad full-time for years and years

01:42:43   and was always pushing the envelope

01:42:45   on what you could do work-wise on an iPad

01:42:48   and what it means to be an iPad Pro user.

01:42:51   And he published this bombshell the other day

01:42:54   of saying basically he kind of secretly switched

01:42:58   to the Mac for the last few months

01:43:01   and has been doing all of his work on the Mac

01:43:02   and this big thing comparing what it's been like.

01:43:06   And spoiler alert, he likes it a lot

01:43:09   and it really highlights quite how limited

01:43:14   the iPad is still in software.

01:43:17   And that's like the main, he talks certainly about

01:43:21   the ports and the keyboard and the trackpad

01:43:23   and stuff like that, but mainly the limitation

01:43:26   on the iPad has always been software limitations.

01:43:29   Things like multitasking ability and app store rules

01:43:33   and inability to hook into certain behaviors

01:43:35   and inflexibility in certain areas.

01:43:37   Standard stuff that we know from iOS usage

01:43:42   and iOS power usage in particular.

01:43:44   And so it was jaw-dropping and I think that article

01:43:49   should serve as a serious wake-up call to the iPad OS team

01:43:54   that things are bad if your biggest enthusiast

01:43:59   just stopped using your platform for the last few months

01:44:03   and kinda liked it better not using it. (laughs)

01:44:06   - Or it should be a wake-up call to the Mac team

01:44:08   because it's not clear to me from that article

01:44:10   whether he would be happier if iOS gained

01:44:12   all the abilities the Mac had

01:44:13   or has he actually said explicitly in the article

01:44:15   what if the Mac was more like the Surface

01:44:17   where you could take a laptop and bend the screen back

01:44:19   and now it's a tablet and you can use a pencil on it

01:44:21   but it's also a Mac.

01:44:22   And so like who is closer, which platform is actually closer

01:44:25   to what VTT wants?

01:44:26   I think actually the Mac is closer,

01:44:28   especially now that it can run iPad apps.

01:44:31   Not that Apple particularly seems to want to go

01:44:33   in that direction, but there's an example.

01:44:34   Microsoft goes in that, their OS is very different,

01:44:37   but hardware wise, they have a product line that does that

01:44:39   and people use it and like it.

01:44:41   There is no reason the Mac couldn't do that.

01:44:43   And the Mac is way closer to doing that than an iPad is.

01:44:46   The iPad is so far, it would have to add so much more stuff

01:44:49   to get to where the Mac already is,

01:44:52   whereas the Mac just needs,

01:44:53   it already has the ability to run iPads,

01:44:55   just needs to add touch,

01:44:56   a little bit of different window management, pen support,

01:44:58   and then hardware design where it's more like a Surface.

01:45:01   We've got an attachable screen,

01:45:02   a full backable screen, all that stuff.

01:45:04   I don't think Apple's going to do that,

01:45:06   but it was an interesting perspective reading his article

01:45:08   and saying he kind of wants a Microsoft Surface

01:45:10   running Mac OS that can run iPad apps.

01:45:12   - Yeah, so anyway, I'll save most of that for another day

01:45:15   because I wanna talk about more of these OSs,

01:45:17   but certainly it highlights just how limiting iPad OS is

01:45:22   when you try to do non-trivial things with it

01:45:26   the way he always does.

01:45:27   And he's always been really good at like,

01:45:29   if there is a way to do something, he will find that way,

01:45:32   and he will make sometimes very ridiculous towers of hacks

01:45:37   to try to get stuff to work the way he wants to on iPad OS.

01:45:41   But really, iPad OS as a pro usage platform

01:45:46   has always been very limited appeal,

01:45:49   has always been fairly difficult to,

01:45:51   'cause similar to SwiftUI,

01:45:53   when you hit a wall, you hit it hard,

01:45:56   and sometimes the process of getting over that wall,

01:45:58   the answer is either you literally can't do that,

01:46:01   or while you can do that,

01:46:02   it's gonna require hacks X, Y, and Z to do it,

01:46:06   and you might actually not wanna do that in the first place.

01:46:10   So I hope to see some movement in iPadOS,

01:46:15   'cause we really didn't see anything last year there.

01:46:17   But at the same time, I'm not hopeful.

01:46:19   I think iPad OS is lost,

01:46:23   and I don't see any signs that they have found their way yet

01:46:27   and I don't, as John was just saying,

01:46:29   I'm not even sure they can find their way

01:46:32   in the paradigm they've made for themselves

01:46:34   to make it anything other than what it is right now.

01:46:37   And what it is right now,

01:46:38   you know, what the iPad is

01:46:40   and what it does for people right now is not zero.

01:46:42   It has plenty of value to plenty of people.

01:46:44   But I don't think they're gonna ever be able to push it

01:46:48   into a place where it's more of a power user platform

01:46:51   in the way we think of as Mac power users.

01:46:53   Not the podcast, the concept.

01:46:56   I don't think it can be pushed in that direction,

01:46:59   but we'll see if there's anything in that direction

01:47:02   this next week.

01:47:03   But again, I'm not expecting much there.

01:47:05   - Since we're talking about this article,

01:47:07   may I read for you my favorite part of the article?

01:47:09   - Yeah, please.

01:47:10   - The iPad is the only Apple computer

01:47:12   that can transform from a tablet into a laptop.

01:47:14   It's the only portable computer

01:47:16   with built-in 5G connectivity,

01:47:19   which I miss every day on the MacBook Pro.

01:47:22   Welcome to the club, Federico.

01:47:24   Oh my gosh.

01:47:25   - Again, Macs are really close to that.

01:47:28   It just, you know, it's using the same chip,

01:47:30   a lot of them, you can just throw that right in there

01:47:32   anytime you want, Apple.

01:47:34   - One of us, one of us.

01:47:36   I really enjoy my iPad.

01:47:38   I'm still running the 2018 iPad Pro,

01:47:41   the first one with Face ID. And by and large, it still works well. And I had a thing I had

01:47:46   to do today, and I'm working on a keynote presentation for something that's uninteresting.

01:47:52   And I was doing that on the iPad, like I was using Keynote on the iPad. And it was clunkier

01:47:57   for me than using it on the Mac, because I don't know where anything is. I don't know

01:48:01   how to accomplish things. But I was able to do what I needed to, you know, in a place

01:48:07   that was that looked nothing like a place you would want to do work and I

01:48:10   was able to do that and that's super cool and I was able to do that you know I

01:48:14   happen to be on Wi-Fi but I could have used you know 5G if I were the LTE

01:48:18   features of the iPad if I wanted to like the iPad is just like SwiftUI as

01:48:23   you said the iPad is really really really great until it isn't and man is

01:48:28   it frustrating when it isn't but hopefully it'll get better. So moving on

01:48:32   to what I'm actually what I actually have the most hopes for so well before I

01:48:36   I get there.

01:48:37   One thing I have low hopes for,

01:48:40   and I hope they don't exceed it too much, is Mac OS.

01:48:44   Because, again, I think Apple has shown

01:48:47   when they tackle major Mac OS projects recently,

01:48:52   they don't usually do a great job of it.

01:48:55   They don't put a lot of time and effort into it

01:48:57   to make it really high quality

01:48:58   and really bug-free and stable.

01:49:00   When they've tackled design changes in Mac OS recently,

01:49:04   They've done kind of a 2/3 asked job of it.

01:49:06   I would love to see them fix notifications.

01:49:09   Like the design notifications still is awful on macOS

01:49:12   since Big Sur and they didn't touch it at all

01:49:15   last year it seems.

01:49:16   I hope they fix that.

01:49:18   Other than that, I want them to stop touching it

01:49:20   until they get better at touching it.

01:49:22   And I'm not sure that will ever happen

01:49:23   so please stop touching it.

01:49:25   Moving on to, moving on to--

01:49:27   - Oh my word.

01:49:28   - Where I'm hoping to see the most progress is WatchOS.

01:49:33   This is, in part because, you know,

01:49:37   watchOS is still a very limiting factor

01:49:39   in what I can do with my app.

01:49:41   And in part because as a user,

01:49:45   I just want, I want so much more there.

01:49:49   watchOS is the youngest platform of all of these still,

01:49:53   and it still feels like the youngest.

01:49:55   It is still the most constrained.

01:49:57   It is still a minefield for developers

01:50:01   to try to achieve anything.

01:50:03   I still get emails and one star reviews and tweets

01:50:07   every single day that what it really boils down to

01:50:11   is watchOS is preventing my app from being good

01:50:16   and from even functioning at certain basic levels

01:50:19   that my customers expect to function.

01:50:21   And that would be in things like the ability

01:50:23   to do background downloading reliably,

01:50:25   the ability to execute and update in the background

01:50:28   on a consistent schedule and somewhat reliably,

01:50:31   the ability to have a complication maybe

01:50:33   that that would be a little more dynamic

01:50:34   and have less throttling and fewer limits on it.

01:50:38   That's what I wanna see from watchOS.

01:50:40   And as a user, I would love to see something

01:50:43   to get me closer to custom watch faces,

01:50:45   whether it's actual custom watch faces,

01:50:47   which I would love, but I think I've been burned

01:50:51   so often on that hope that I don't even hope for it anymore

01:50:54   because I don't wanna lose,

01:50:56   but something that gets me closer to that.

01:50:59   So maybe it's one large complication

01:51:02   That takes up, maybe you have the digital time

01:51:04   in the top right quadrant, and the whole bottom two thirds

01:51:08   of it are one giant complication.

01:51:10   We almost got that with the Series 7 last fall,

01:51:13   but we didn't quite get that, I think so.

01:51:16   Just some way that we can get a little bit closer

01:51:19   to custom watch faces, if we're not gonna actually

01:51:21   have custom watch faces, that would be great.

01:51:24   More abilities for complications to be more dynamic,

01:51:26   working in more Swift UI technologies there,

01:51:28   more timeline views in various places, things like that.

01:51:32   but ultimately, in general, I want watchOS to allow my app

01:51:36   to do more things that customers expect it to be able to do.

01:51:41   And that would especially be in the area

01:51:44   of background downloads and background execution.

01:51:48   - John, what do you wanna do on your Apple Watch

01:51:50   that you can't do currently?

01:51:51   - Yeah, and maybe I wanna do a,

01:51:54   did I tell you, oh, that's some follow-up

01:51:56   we should have added, a late-time follow-up.

01:51:58   Last show, we talked about Apple Fitness Plus

01:52:01   like how they don't need the 4x3 things because no one's watching Apple Fitness Plus on a

01:52:05   4x3 TV and then lots of people will send feedback and say yeah but what about the iPad? The

01:52:08   iPad is 4x3 and people watch Apple Fitness Plus on the iPad so there you go that's why

01:52:11   they need the 4x3 things. And I said you know what let me check it on iPad to see what it

01:52:15   does. Does it actually fill the 4x3? Does it letterbox or whatever? So I go pick up

01:52:19   my iPad which is like I think the most recent my yes the M1 iPad probably. Pick up my iPad

01:52:24   I'm like alright fit you know pull down FIT. Well it's not finding it. Do I not have fitness

01:52:29   installed, I go to the App Store, lunch App Store, F-I-T-N-E, what? And it's showing me

01:52:33   ads, and other apps called Fitness something, and I'm like, no, no, I want like the, like

01:52:39   that's where it is, right? It's an Apple Fitness app, so I Google, to use Apple Fitness Plus,

01:52:43   use the Fitness app, and it shows the one with the little activity rings, and I'm like,

01:52:45   yeah, it's the activity ring thing, so then I'm like, oh, is it in the app library? Why

01:52:48   is it not finding it? I'm looking, I'm scrolling, you know, there's a whole problem with find

01:52:53   on iOS and iPadOS where you can search for an app even when you find it, you're like,

01:52:56   show me where it is, on what screen is it,

01:52:58   in what folder is it buried in, I hate that so much.

01:53:01   'Cause yeah, you can launch it,

01:53:02   but you'll never tell you where it is.

01:53:03   Anyway, I'm not finding it, I can't launch it anywhere.

01:53:06   So I go back to either a Mac, I forget what it was,

01:53:10   I'm in a web browser, I find a link that says,

01:53:14   how to use Apple Fitness Plus,

01:53:15   go here to download the fitness app.

01:53:17   And so it's like a link from a webpage that I'm like,

01:53:19   all right, well this will launch me into the App Store.

01:53:21   So I open that link on my iPad,

01:53:23   I think I messaged it to myself or something,

01:53:25   Anyway, open link in the iPad,

01:53:27   it brings it to an App Store page,

01:53:28   it says Fitness Plus and says,

01:53:29   sorry, your iPad doesn't have the features

01:53:31   that would allow this app to be installed on it.

01:53:33   What?

01:53:34   What?

01:53:35   So not only do I not have the Fitness app,

01:53:37   remember, this is me just trying to see

01:53:39   what Apple Fitness Plus,

01:53:40   which I pay for by the way,

01:53:41   'cause I pay for Apple One,

01:53:42   see what it looks like on an iPad.

01:53:44   Not only do I not have the app on my iPad,

01:53:46   I can't find the app in the App Store,

01:53:48   it won't even show me the product page,

01:53:50   and when I get a direct link

01:53:51   to the Apple Fitness Plus product page,

01:53:53   it says your iPad doesn't have the features

01:53:55   allowed us to be installed and it's at that point that I realized wait a second

01:53:58   does Apple Fitness Plus not work if you don't have an Apple Watch? So to answer

01:54:05   your question what features of the watch would your non-existent watch would you

01:54:07   like to have? I'd like to be able to at least launch the Apple Fitness without an

01:54:12   Apple Watch. No I don't have an Apple Watch Apple paired with this thing at

01:54:16   all I understand that so I never did the answer that question I have to ask you

01:54:19   Casey if you launch Apple Fitness Plus on the iPad does it display 4x3 or is it

01:54:22   16 by nine letterboxed.

01:54:25   - I don't have my iPad near me.

01:54:27   I wanna say, I wanna say it's 16 by nine.

01:54:31   If you'll permit me to go and run downstairs

01:54:33   and come back in a moment, I can figure this out

01:54:36   or I can just, we can talk about it next week,

01:54:38   but I just don't have the iPad in this room

01:54:40   and I apologize.

01:54:41   - Yeah, and I don't have anything against watchOS

01:54:42   and Apple Watch, in fact, my wife,

01:54:44   I told this story to my wife, she said,

01:54:46   "Well, you know, she just got a series seven,

01:54:48   "so she's got, I think, a series six or a series five

01:54:51   "that nobody's using in the family."

01:54:52   and says, well, you can have that watch.

01:54:53   But of course, I don't wear an Apple watch,

01:54:56   not out of a Spyder because I think it's a bad product.

01:54:58   I just don't like having a thing on my wrist,

01:54:59   which is kind of a barrier for a watch, right?

01:55:02   - Yep. - But maybe I'd just put it on

01:55:04   for workouts or something.

01:55:05   I haven't actually gone into Fitness Plus.

01:55:08   But everything Marco said about making the OS

01:55:11   more amenable to the type of apps

01:55:13   that third-party developers would like to do,

01:55:15   like having a podcast app on your watch

01:55:18   that can do the things that you would expect

01:55:20   podcast app to do, like download a podcast and let you listen to it, would be amazing.

01:55:24   But it's an uphill struggle and not really, you know, the user experience is bad, the

01:55:30   developer experience is bad, the product is just not quite there yet.

01:55:32   So I feel like the APIs will probably expand slightly lagging with the hardware, like we

01:55:40   just finally got the always-on screens.

01:55:43   Eventually we'll have enough surplus battery life, I hope, to be able to do things like

01:55:47   "Here is a straightforward reliable API to download a file,

01:55:50   "then we won't kill your application after two seconds."

01:55:53   - Yeah, that's the thing.

01:55:56   In early watchOS development,

01:55:57   this has been an arc, a story arc

01:56:01   for the entire history of watchOS.

01:56:03   In the beginning, users expected watch apps

01:56:08   to be able to have interfaces that worked at all,

01:56:11   and we couldn't, because WatchKit was awful,

01:56:13   and it was doing the whole remote to your phone thing,

01:56:15   and even when it moved the extension onto the watch,

01:56:17   a couple of versions in, it still sucked,

01:56:19   and it was still laggy and weird and awful and limited.

01:56:22   And then, eventually over the long term,

01:56:24   SwiftUI came in and fixed that.

01:56:26   In the audio playback area in particular,

01:56:29   for a while we couldn't really do

01:56:31   good background audio solutions.

01:56:33   They were buggy and limited and sucked,

01:56:35   and that was preventing us from doing

01:56:38   basic podcast and media apps

01:56:40   that people would expect to happen.

01:56:41   That has since been solved, fortunately,

01:56:43   so that's pretty much done.

01:56:44   I have a couple of minor little witchless things there,

01:56:46   but they're minor, for the most part,

01:56:48   I can do what I wanna do.

01:56:49   And then, now we have like, the more specialized things,

01:56:54   if you wanna have an app that you launch

01:56:58   and you're using it actively and you close it

01:56:59   and that's it and there's no real background

01:57:01   update needs for it, that's pretty well covered now.

01:57:04   But now, people expect your app also,

01:57:07   if you're gonna have something like a podcast app

01:57:09   or anything that has background updates for its data,

01:57:12   you expect that to be reliable.

01:57:13   You expect to be able to have a complication update

01:57:15   on a regular basis, not be bugged out.

01:57:18   I mean, jeez, even as a user,

01:57:21   I mentioned a while back when they launched

01:57:24   the Apple Watch SE and family setup,

01:57:26   I mentioned that we got one for our son.

01:57:28   And that is his primary mobile iOS device.

01:57:31   Like he has an iPad at home and on trips and stuff,

01:57:34   but when he's out and about playing at the playground

01:57:37   or whatever, he has his Apple Watch as his only device.

01:57:40   He doesn't have a phone yet.

01:57:42   And if we wanna locate him,

01:57:45   or message him or have him message us.

01:57:48   So anything that uses the GPS or the cellular,

01:57:51   which we pay for and is part of advertised features

01:57:54   and family plans, that works about 85% of the time.

01:57:59   And sometimes with the Apple Watch cellular,

01:58:02   and I've actually seen this on mine

01:58:04   and on my wife's watches as well,

01:58:06   so it isn't just a family setup thing,

01:58:08   sometimes the cellular on the Apple Watch

01:58:11   just doesn't work.

01:58:12   You just don't get messages delivered to you

01:58:14   and you can't be located and it just doesn't work

01:58:17   until you reboot the watch.

01:58:19   - Cool.

01:58:20   - And so it's like, parts of watchOS,

01:58:22   they're so creaky and I'm sure this is somehow related

01:58:27   to some background demon being throttled or crashing

01:58:30   or something, like the platform just needs

01:58:34   so much more maturation and advancement.

01:58:36   And like, when we were asking three hours ago

01:58:39   what I wanted on iOS, like my list is so much shorter

01:58:42   and iOS and it's so much more abstract,

01:58:45   like oh, let's make SwiftUI better,

01:58:46   but that wasn't really about iOS as much as about SwiftUI,

01:58:49   because iOS is so mature and so stable

01:58:52   and has so much development happening for it

01:58:55   over the last, geez, what, 15, 14 years, whatever it's been,

01:58:59   that there's not much more to wish for there.

01:59:03   They've done a really good job and it's very mature.

01:59:05   Whereas WatchOS, some of the basics

01:59:07   still don't work very well.

01:59:08   And that's why I was very excited

01:59:11   when I heard, I think it was from Mark Gerwin's newsletter last week, that there are allegedly

01:59:18   pretty big changes to watchOS happening and that makes me very, very happy. Because even

01:59:23   if we don't get a lot of flashy user-facing features like custom watch faces, any kind

01:59:28   of large improvements to the underlying stuff behind the scenes, the APIs, the background

01:59:35   restrictions, and even just the OS itself being updated in big ways, is badly needed

01:59:41   on watchOS, much more so than the other platforms.

01:59:43   So that's what I'm excited for, in short.

01:59:46   - Yeah, I think that all sounds great.

01:59:49   And I don't know, I like my Apple Watch a lot.

01:59:51   There's not a ton I wish from it,

01:59:54   other than as with all Apple platforms,

01:59:56   like you were saying, stability,

01:59:57   and just do what I want you to do when I want you to do it.

02:00:01   And even for the things that you're supposed

02:00:03   to be able to do, so I totally hear you.

02:00:05   TBOS is something that I use all the time.

02:00:10   I don't have anything specific I feel like I want from it,

02:00:13   but I will say that tvOS is another one of the situations where it feels like,

02:00:16   does anyone at Apple use this? Like, is this,

02:00:19   and Merlin said this a thousand times and he's right.

02:00:22   Like does anyone at Apple really use tvOS or use it to watch anything other than

02:00:26   Apple TV? Well, actually even the Apple TV plus stuff.

02:00:29   It's such a pain in the hindquarters trying to find anything,

02:00:31   but does anyone use this for real? Really? Do any of you use this? You know,

02:00:35   same thing with Apple music.

02:00:36   Like does anyone at Apple actually use Apple music because it it could be so much better and it isn't and it's frustrating

02:00:44   But I mean you this you've invoked the tvOS

02:00:48   Its spirits and now I have to give my most recent anointing with tvOS. Yes, please

02:00:54   It's the same story you've heard me say a million times

02:00:55   But here's a concrete example watching severance with someone who hasn't seen you before I've seen it before

02:01:00   I've wanted to see it. So we're going back through it and

02:01:03   You know you watch an episode and then the next day let's watch the next episode

02:01:06   So you launch TV and then up next you see a little little icon the left that says severance great system is finally working up

02:01:11   Next is showing me the thing. I just watched I mean it's not on the top left, but you know I can still see it

02:01:16   It's above the fold I can see it on the screen. I don't have to scroll

02:01:19   Let me just go down to severance

02:01:20   But of course it shows you a little thumbnail and as always the question were we on episode 3 or we on episode 4

02:01:26   I don't know well

02:01:28   Surely tvos knows surely probably whatever it is is probably going to be the episode that we want to do

02:01:33   But for whatever reason it picked the wrong episode it was clear when it was showing us scenes like no we've seen this one already

02:01:39   From you know from that screen, you know, you launch tv plus up next you go into the left tile

02:01:46   Like I want to go back to the episode list of severance

02:01:50   But if you hit back you're just back on that home screen again, and you see you're up next thing

02:01:53   How do you get to the episode list for severance?

02:01:56   I don't know that hierarchy just doesn't exist. I can go back into that same episode

02:02:00   and I could scrub scrub scrub to the end and then go to the next episode, but it's like

02:02:03   Is there no way to get to?

02:02:06   Oh

02:02:06   This is the wrong episode of show x take me to the list of episodes for show x so I can see them all in

02:02:10   Their titles and maybe little progress bars of how far i've done them or something like this

02:02:13   Not rocket science tivo was doing this ages ago. I hate it so much

02:02:17   and then my second mini rant is I kind of like the

02:02:21   new way that they expose like turning captions on and off in tv os like above the like scrubber bar

02:02:27   there's a bunch of little controls they're like hey we have all this room on the screen let's put

02:02:29   some controls but for the life of me i have no idea how they expect you to get at those controls

02:02:34   i eventually get at them sometimes by flailing my thumb on the touchpad in random directions but

02:02:38   like what do they want from you to get to that it's like is it up but not uppy up because that takes

02:02:44   you to the top but not down but it's like up and to the right but just like and there's no cursor

02:02:49   - And I have no idea what I'm doing.

02:02:51   Do you know what I'm talking about?

02:02:51   The little caption bubble that's like above the time,

02:02:53   above the scrubber line now

02:02:55   and Apple TV Plus native player control.

02:02:58   - Yep, yep, you have to swipe up a couple of times

02:03:00   if I recall correctly.

02:03:01   - Yeah, but like what is like,

02:03:03   I always think like did the first time not work

02:03:05   or is it just taking a hint

02:03:06   or I just have to like, you know,

02:03:07   Simon Says go up to the thing and is it to the right?

02:03:11   I just, they haven't figured it out yet.

02:03:15   Like I just, if this interface was like a menu system

02:03:17   for a video game, every review would trash it.

02:03:20   - Yep, agreed.

02:03:21   So yeah, tvOS, just start using it, Apple,

02:03:23   and make it cool, that'd be great.

02:03:27   And then I guess realityOS, if it's a thing,

02:03:31   just sign me up, let's see what you got.

02:03:33   - I mean, there's a downside for them calling it that.

02:03:36   I know it's like the code name

02:03:37   and it's all over the code and everything,

02:03:38   but like, if this thing has any problems whatsoever,

02:03:43   let alone if it's a flop,

02:03:44   there's a lot of jokes related to realityOS

02:03:46   that are gonna come sailing down on Apple's heads.

02:03:49   - Do you think like distortion field related or other?

02:03:52   - The reality of this OS ain't so great.

02:03:54   - ROS maybe is a little bit better,

02:03:56   but I feel like they're really running.

02:03:57   - They're really running this lowercase letter OS thing

02:03:59   into the ground.

02:04:01   - It's our OS, that's what it is.

02:04:03   It's not our OS, it's our OS.

02:04:04   - Oh, it's definitely not gonna be ours, believe me.

02:04:07   - Seeing the list written out here,

02:04:09   do you remember when they redid this branding,

02:04:10   like oh, I know you don't like Mac OS, all lowercase MAC,

02:04:14   but like it matches in the family,

02:04:15   but seeing this list here,

02:04:16   what stands out to you as the ugly duckling in many ways?

02:04:20   - iPad and TV.

02:04:22   - iPad, because it's like,

02:04:24   well, it starts with lowercase,

02:04:25   eh, technically, yeah, but capital P,

02:04:30   none of the other ones do that.

02:04:31   Yeah, I know, it's like iOS gets around it

02:04:34   by just having the I,

02:04:35   but iPad OS goes right to the capital P

02:04:37   in the second letter.

02:04:38   It's supposed to just be the OS that's capital,

02:04:40   but iPad is always lowercase I capital P.

02:04:43   They kind of broke the pattern and iPadOS is like

02:04:46   kind of the black sheep of this family too and it's just.

02:04:49   - I mean I would say, I mean I know everyone's sick

02:04:53   of everyone's iPad hot takes since Federico's article

02:04:55   came out but I mean I would say I don't think they've lived

02:05:00   up to separating that out into its own name.

02:05:04   I think it should still be called iOS because the iPad

02:05:07   has not been significantly separated from the iPhone

02:05:11   and it still has all the same limitations.

02:05:13   So it might as well just be called iOS.

02:05:16   - Yeah, on this show, we call it iOS all the time.

02:05:18   Every once in a while we'll remember,

02:05:19   oh yeah, iPad OS should be a separate thing.

02:05:21   But if it really was this thing,

02:05:22   I don't think we'd have such a problem remembering it.

02:05:24   - Yeah, but the reality is calling it iPad OS

02:05:27   was seemingly purely a marketing effort

02:05:31   and not really reflecting enough diversion from iOS

02:05:36   to really earn that name.

02:05:38   - Yep.

02:05:39   - All right, so we don't think we're getting a headset.

02:05:42   Are we getting an M2 MacBook Air?

02:05:45   - That's another round of late-breaking rumors

02:05:47   of like, you know, the redesigned MacBook Air

02:05:49   is surely coming at some point.

02:05:50   It's conceivable that it could be announced

02:05:52   that it'll be able to see, but this is whole noise

02:05:54   around the M2, and it's like, well, it's not,

02:05:57   the real M2 is coming next year,

02:05:59   and this is just gonna be like an M1+,

02:06:01   but Apple might call it M2, and (sighs)

02:06:04   just like last-minute, massive confusion

02:06:07   slash taking back things that, you know,

02:06:10   the rumors were so strong and everyone was on the same page

02:06:12   until like a week before the conference,

02:06:14   and everyone's like, wait, no, we were totally wrong,

02:06:15   forget it, I don't know what's going on, ah!

02:06:17   (laughing)

02:06:18   - That's exactly what happened.

02:06:20   - It totally did, like, they're like, it's M1 plus, what?

02:06:24   Like, just get your story straight, people, like, jeez.

02:06:26   I mean, I still do believe that the MacBook Air rumors

02:06:29   are probably pretty dead on.

02:06:31   We didn't see like we did with the MacBook Pros,

02:06:33   like what turned out to be a totally accurate leak

02:06:35   of like the drawings of the case

02:06:36   from that ransomware attack or whatever,

02:06:38   but I totally believe the redesigned MacBook Air rumors,

02:06:40   and honestly, I don't care if it has an M1+ or an M2,

02:06:44   or if they call something that's an M1+, they call it M2.

02:06:46   Like the MacBook Air is not hurting for performance, right?

02:06:49   It's not, no one's saying, oh, MacBook Air, it's so slow.

02:06:52   It's a great machine.

02:06:53   If they put it in a slightly different form factor

02:06:55   that maybe has one or two more ports,

02:06:57   or is better in some ways, or has a better screen,

02:07:00   yeah, even if they give it a notch.

02:07:02   I mean, I feel like it'll,

02:07:04   It does, the MacBook Air deserve as, you know,

02:07:07   as probably still Apple's best selling laptop

02:07:09   for a very good reason.

02:07:10   It deserves to sort of take the leap

02:07:12   into the new form factors.

02:07:13   The MacBook Pro's got it there and the new form factor,

02:07:15   everybody loves it, it's different, it's quirky,

02:07:17   it's got a notch, like do it to the MacBook Air.

02:07:20   I really don't care what CPU has in it.

02:07:22   That is my, I mean, this is not what Apple

02:07:24   should be concentrating on, but my biggest hope

02:07:26   for W2WC is new MacBook Air announcement.

02:07:30   I'm setting aside the Mac Pro 'cause I can't even think

02:07:33   that they're gonna do anything about that.

02:07:34   So setting that totally aside,

02:07:36   obviously I'd be way more excited about that,

02:07:37   but I really don't think that's gonna happen.

02:07:39   And, you know, tease of a Mac Pro,

02:07:42   does that have a thing that Apple does?

02:07:43   I don't even freaking know.

02:07:44   But anyway, MacBook Air, a redesigned MacBook Air,

02:07:47   I hope that it is announced and released

02:07:49   and I hope it is available for me to purchase from my son

02:07:51   when he goes off to college in the fall.

02:07:53   - Yeah, I think that's actually,

02:07:54   I mean, we've heard the rumors about the MacBook Air,

02:07:57   the M2 MacBook Air, have been all over the map

02:08:00   for the last year, really.

02:08:02   I mean, it was originally supposed to come out

02:08:04   this past spring, that didn't happen.

02:08:06   And as Jon expressed better than I can,

02:08:09   the rumors have been very turbulent recently

02:08:12   about the MacBook Air and in particular any M2 based--

02:08:16   - What's inside it.

02:08:17   - Right, and any M2 based product.

02:08:18   Where is the M2 chip?

02:08:20   What is it, even what TSMC process?

02:08:23   - What is the M2?

02:08:24   - Yeah, what process is it based on?

02:08:25   What cores is it based on?

02:08:28   This is now all been thrown up in the air

02:08:30   with the rumor mill in the last few days even.

02:08:32   Like it just seems like either the rumor mill was way off and they're now

02:08:35   correcting themselves or something went really wrong and something got delayed.

02:08:39   And, and you know, who knows?

02:08:40   Well, I mean the COVID supply chain stuff is obviously still messing with things.

02:08:44   Like I should, how long did I have to wait for my studio display?

02:08:47   And that is not advanced technology.

02:08:49   So like all of Apple's plans, like so many other companies' plans are

02:08:53   really getting screwed up.

02:08:54   And you would think like, well, shouldn't know you had those scripts before.

02:08:56   No, all the stuff that came out when COVID just started that stuff, that,

02:08:59   that ship had already sailed, like the lag time

02:09:02   on how long it takes hardware to go through.

02:09:03   What we were seeing now, I feel like,

02:09:05   is the real wreckage of COVID messing with stuff,

02:09:08   because the pipeline was already filled with products

02:09:11   that were gonna come out pretty much no matter what,

02:09:13   but now it's just, you know,

02:09:15   like I don't really blame Apple for these.

02:09:18   Like, it's kind of amazing that Apple's able

02:09:20   to ship any new products at all,

02:09:21   considering how hard it is to get basic stuff.

02:09:23   - Yeah, exactly.

02:09:25   But anyway, it feels like,

02:09:27   whatever's inside the new MacBook Air,

02:09:30   it does feel like it's overdue, or at least due.

02:09:34   But as John said, even if it is just the M1

02:09:38   in a slightly modified form for now, M1+,

02:09:43   who knows what they would, M1.1,

02:09:46   whatever they would call it, that's still amazing.

02:09:50   And the only limitation of the current MacBook Air really,

02:09:54   I would say, having used one myself for a while

02:09:57   and loving it and then now using the newer things,

02:09:59   is that the MacBook Air's enclosure,

02:10:01   the physical enclosure, is outdated.

02:10:03   Like that's the main downside to it.

02:10:06   It doesn't have all the ports of the new,

02:10:08   of the higher end ones,

02:10:09   and I mean we don't actually know that it will.

02:10:12   It has the old screen shape,

02:10:13   it has the old keyboard shape,

02:10:15   it has the old touch ID key

02:10:17   and the old proportions of the function really.

02:10:20   It looks and feels outdated

02:10:22   because it is a fairly old design now.

02:10:24   And so that's the part that we're hoping they update,

02:10:28   is like the physical side of everything,

02:10:30   the enclosure, the shapes, the keyboards, the keys,

02:10:33   all that stuff, that's what we want them to update.

02:10:35   Whether it has an M1 or an M2,

02:10:38   whatever that means inside of it,

02:10:40   I think is barely relevant at all, honestly,

02:10:44   for that product.

02:10:45   - Yeah, well put.

02:10:45   - And so that, I hope that does come out soon.

02:10:49   That being said, that is not necessarily a WWDC release.

02:10:53   Usually in WWDC keynotes, they don't usually do

02:10:57   consumer hardware like that unless there's

02:11:00   some really good reason and maybe it's like

02:11:01   a very light software year, but from the rumors,

02:11:04   it sounds like it's not gonna be that light

02:11:05   of a software year, so they might not have time

02:11:07   to do stuff like that.

02:11:08   I think they can release that with standard press

02:11:11   interaction in July, no problem.

02:11:14   And so if they don't want that to take up space

02:11:17   in WWDC or if it isn't quite ready yet, that can wait.

02:11:19   And if it doesn't hit July, then they'll do it

02:11:22   in September or October or whatever.

02:11:24   I think we're in the ballpark of that product being released,

02:11:27   but when it will actually be released

02:11:28   is kind of up in the air and it kind of doesn't matter.

02:11:30   As for the Mac Pro, I think it's pretty clear

02:11:35   from the last event that they want

02:11:37   to tease the new Mac Pro soon.

02:11:41   I don't think we're going to be waiting another year for it.

02:11:43   I don't even think we're going to be waiting

02:11:44   until the winter for it.

02:11:46   It might be the winter before we can get one, especially

02:11:49   given current supply issues.

02:11:51   But I'm guessing that the Mac Pro is formally announced at this event.

02:11:57   Oh, God.

02:11:57   And I don't know how much detail we're going to get, but I think it will be

02:12:01   announced and shown in some way.

02:12:04   And, and then said, we can order it this fall, you know, something like that.

02:12:08   I that's, that's what I would expect to happen.

02:12:10   My biggest nightmare is that they tease it and say almost nothing specific about it.

02:12:17   And then we have to zap, zap, pruder, or however you pronounce it, that bad boy for

02:12:21   the next six friggin months until we get answers. Please, Apple, don't do this to me. Don't

02:12:25   do it. Please don't do it to me. Either nothing or just show us everything because in the

02:12:29   middle where these two have to go on for hours and hours and hours about it, please no. Please,

02:12:33   please no.

02:12:34   You know, given how long it took me, like from the time I ordered my Mac Studio to get

02:12:37   one because I hesitated a little bit, like I don't, if they announce a Mac Pro, I'm not

02:12:42   ready to order the second it comes out, which means that if I eventually decided after a

02:12:47   week or two of having a hong, I should probably order one of these. It's gonna be like six

02:12:50   months before I get it because you thought trying to build all the parts

02:12:54   that go in the Mac Studios hog whatever exotic stuff they have inside the Mac

02:12:57   Pro is probably gonna be worse and yes I know they sell far fewer of them but I

02:13:01   was shocking it's shocking to me that the Mac Studio shipping delays are what

02:13:05   they are given how few people in the grand scheme of things are buying Mac

02:13:10   Studios like the sales numbers for this weird little computer had to be like 1/20

02:13:14   what they are for the MacBook Air even worse than that and it's still months to

02:13:18   get it. I'm also, I'm still holding out hope that, even though this is not something that

02:13:24   I would probably buy, we still haven't seen a like really tiny Apple Silicon laptop yet.

02:13:31   Like there is no 12 inch or 11 inch, you know, MacBook Air or whatever they would call it.

02:13:36   That doesn't exist yet. I think it's very clear from both, you know, the first of all

02:13:42   from the 10 inch iPad or 11 inch iPad Pro, like that's an M1 product. Actually no, even

02:13:46   the 10 point whatever inch iPad Air is now an M1 product.

02:13:49   So they can obviously fit this chip with a good battery

02:13:53   and perfectly reasonable passive cooling.

02:13:56   They can clearly fit that in much smaller enclosures.

02:14:00   I think we've seen that the Magic Keyboard

02:14:02   doesn't actually take up that much more physical space

02:14:06   than the butterfly keyboard that preceded it,

02:14:08   which we will not talk about today because I'm happy.

02:14:11   And so I think it's very clear that they could make

02:14:14   a really nice super compact laptop

02:14:17   from the M series of chips if they wanted to.

02:14:21   I'm kind of surprised they haven't yet.

02:14:23   You know, before the M1 computers were announced,

02:14:25   I was predicting like they're gonna come out the door

02:14:27   with something super small as like a statement.

02:14:29   And then we were all kind of shocked

02:14:31   when they just came out with like

02:14:32   the unmodified MacBook Air enclosure.

02:14:35   They basically deleted the fan

02:14:38   and kept everything else the same.

02:14:40   And it was an amazing computer,

02:14:41   still is an amazing computer,

02:14:43   but they haven't really blown the doors off

02:14:46   in terms of what they can do physically

02:14:49   with these new chips that we didn't already have

02:14:51   like a similar size class of before.

02:14:55   So I would love to see something like that.

02:14:58   I wouldn't say I necessarily expect it for this event,

02:15:02   not only because again, that wouldn't really be a WBTC thing

02:15:06   but also because we have heard absolutely zero rumors

02:15:09   to that effect and usually when they're announcing

02:15:11   a new size of computer that has a display,

02:15:15   we almost always get display leaks months ahead of time

02:15:18   from various leakers and Ming-Chi Kuo and things like that.

02:15:21   So it doesn't seem like this is a thing

02:15:24   they're actually doing, but that is one kind of

02:15:27   unfilled spot in the lineup that I think

02:15:30   if they tackled it now today with Apple Silicon

02:15:35   and with their modern having seen the light on the keyboard,

02:15:39   I think they would do a really great job with it

02:15:42   and I think people would absolutely love that thing.

02:15:46   Now, whether they would sell a lot of it

02:15:48   is another question.

02:15:49   What we heard kind of unofficially,

02:15:52   the 12 inch MacBook allegedly sales fell off a cliff

02:15:57   when the Retina MacBook Air came out.

02:16:00   And so apparently when people,

02:16:03   they love that little 12 inch thing,

02:16:05   love asterisk, asterisk, asterisk,

02:16:07   that little 12 inch thing,

02:16:08   but as much as they hated it, they kept buying them.

02:16:10   But they loved it, but as soon as the 13-inch

02:16:14   MacBook Air came out that was much more capable

02:16:15   and less compromised, they all moved to that, allegedly.

02:16:19   So we'll see, maybe this is a product

02:16:21   that people think they want and actually don't buy

02:16:24   in enough volume to matter to Apple, like the iPhone mini.

02:16:27   But I still think it would be cool to have that,

02:16:31   and I think a lot of people would absolutely love

02:16:35   that computer, so we'll see.

02:16:37   - That would make me at least consider

02:16:39   doing the desktop laptop/laptop laptop lifestyle

02:16:43   that you're doing right now,

02:16:45   because even though I don't feel like I have any need

02:16:48   for a new MacBook adorable in my life,

02:16:52   I loved that thing so much.

02:16:54   It was such a piece of trash and I loved it.

02:16:56   I absolutely loved it.

02:16:57   And so that would make me think about getting it

02:17:00   as like a satellite machine.

02:17:02   - Yeah, it's so fun for that.

02:17:03   I saw somebody the other day,

02:17:05   maybe this is what I'm thinking of it.

02:17:06   I saw somebody the other day using an 11 inch MacBook Air.

02:17:09   First of all, I loved seeing the light up Apple logo

02:17:11   on the lid.

02:17:12   That was like, I missed that.

02:17:13   But I saw it and I was like, wow, that is still,

02:17:17   the 11 inch MacBook Air came out in 2010.

02:17:21   And that is still 12 years later,

02:17:24   a strikingly small computer, like when you see it in person.

02:17:28   And it really had very few compromises.

02:17:32   The 11 inch Air was way less compromised

02:17:35   than the 12 inch MacBook, way less.

02:17:38   It had the regular keyboard mechanism,

02:17:40   it had a regular track pad, it had a lot of ports,

02:17:43   it was full of ports, it had Thunderbolt,

02:17:45   like it had a lot of stuff.

02:17:47   It was actually a pretty great computer for what it was.

02:17:50   It just had that really like squat screen that was--

02:17:53   - That was the biggest compromise is,

02:17:55   you gotta fit all your stuff in this little tiny,

02:17:58   you know, tank window into the world.

02:18:00   It was, you know, I think if you use one,

02:18:04   like the bottom of the computer was pretty much

02:18:06   no compromises, but that screen,

02:18:09   I feel like that would be a tough sell in the modern age.

02:18:11   People just want more screen space.

02:18:14   - Oh yeah, but that screen bezel was so thick,

02:18:17   you know, it was like a matted picture frame.

02:18:20   - I know, but it's the proportions,

02:18:21   like it's just not,

02:18:22   Mac OS does not lend itself well to that environment,

02:18:26   especially if they default the dock to the bottom, ugh.

02:18:28   - That's true, but, you know,

02:18:30   the 12 inch took it a little bit more,

02:18:32   closer to Square rather than being so squat.

02:18:35   And I think if they bring back the 12 inch Air

02:18:41   with modern design and modern hardware and modern choices,

02:18:45   I think they would do a really great job with it.

02:18:48   - So Marco, you seen a Mac Pro in this event or no?

02:18:51   - Yeah, yeah, I said earlier I expect them to announce it

02:18:55   and to show off something about it,

02:18:57   possibly full details, I don't know,

02:18:59   but I expect them to at least announce it

02:19:02   and tell us what the processor

02:19:04   and card situation is there.

02:19:07   I wouldn't expect people to buy it yet

02:19:09   or to order it yet,

02:19:10   and I would only expect to hear a base price.

02:19:13   - Are they gonna show it?

02:19:14   As in here's what shape the thing is?

02:19:16   - Yeah, no, I would expect a full reveal of the thing,

02:19:18   similar to when they did the trash can

02:19:20   and the 2819 Mac Pro where they announced it at WBC,

02:19:24   but then you couldn't actually buy it for a little while.

02:19:26   I think it's gonna be very similar to that.

02:19:28   - What are you basing that on?

02:19:29   Just rumors or you think it's the time for this?

02:19:31   'Cause I don't, I still think that's not gonna happen,

02:19:34   Debby, I would love it, but it just doesn't seem

02:19:36   like it's in the cards for me.

02:19:37   - I think gut feeling.

02:19:38   I mean, it does feel like it's about time.

02:19:40   I mean, given their own stated timeline,

02:19:43   which they've followed pretty closely

02:19:44   for the Apple slogan transition,

02:19:46   they only have until November.

02:19:48   - I mean, they did tease it at the end of the last thing,

02:19:50   so I think they would like to do it now,

02:19:52   but I don't know if it's just

02:19:54   with all of the stuff happening.

02:19:56   It just, for me, my gut feeling is it feels like

02:19:59   it's not time, but hey, prove me wrong, Apple.

02:20:01   I'd love to see it.

02:20:02   - Yeah, and again, I wouldn't expect to actually get one

02:20:04   until like fall or winter.

02:20:05   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:20:06   - But I think they will show it to us.

02:20:08   - I just need enough to make a shirt,

02:20:09   so I need to know what it looks like.

02:20:10   - Yeah. (laughs)

02:20:13   - Which, quick aside, very late follow-up.

02:20:16   Some people have been tweeting pictures of their shirts.

02:20:18   Mine have not come in yet,

02:20:19   'cause I always order on the later side.

02:20:21   I haven't forgotten yet, because I use my techniques,

02:20:23   but I always order on the later side,

02:20:25   I haven't seen mine yet, but the ones that I've seen photographed, they look real good,

02:20:30   particularly the Interposer shirt.

02:20:31   I'm real excited to get mine.

02:20:33   So there.

02:20:34   Yep, I got all mine too, and I was pleasantly surprised at how much fine detail.

02:20:39   I was worried about the detail on the back with the big SOC for the Ultra shirt with

02:20:44   the little things.

02:20:45   I mean, I know I have the spec of like, can't be smaller than this size or whatever, but

02:20:50   all the detail that I wanted to show up showed up really well.

02:20:52   So again, maybe it will fade with many washes or whatever, but right out of the box it looks

02:20:57   pretty darn good.

02:20:58   So yeah, I got all mine.

02:20:59   Good deal.

02:21:00   Well, I'm excited for next week.

02:21:02   I really am.

02:21:04   I'm sad that I'm not there.

02:21:06   I mean, I understand it, but I'm sad about it.

02:21:09   But I'm really stoked.

02:21:11   And I'm really, really fascinated to hear reports, formal and informal, about what this

02:21:16   looks like.

02:21:17   What it looks like for press, what it looks like for regular shmoes that are just showing

02:21:20   up with permission from Apple of course. Breaking news, apparently Gruber's doing the talk show

02:21:26   and it's being hosted by Apple, which is fascinating. Like you actually sign up for a ticket lottery

02:21:33   at Apple.com, which is super, not bad weird, but weird, unusual maybe is a better word

02:21:39   for it.

02:21:40   Yeah, I think the developer center is the venue.

02:21:42   Is that right? Okay, I missed that part.

02:21:43   There's free tickets for everybody. Someone should tell Apple that 30% of nothing is nothing.

02:21:47   (laughing)

02:21:48   Yeah, he said, "We are gonna record it

02:21:49   "inside the Apple Developer Center.

02:21:51   "Seating will be to the say the least limited."

02:21:54   So this will be interesting to see,

02:21:56   what is the capacity of whatever room they're in

02:21:59   in the Developer Center?

02:22:00   - They're gonna set up folding chairs?

02:22:01   I don't know.

02:22:02   - I don't know.

02:22:03   Is there a little theater in there,

02:22:04   like the Steve Jobs Theater?

02:22:05   I don't know.

02:22:05   - Why doesn't he have to do it in the Steve Jobs Theater?

02:22:07   No one else is using it.

02:22:08   - I don't know.

02:22:09   (laughing)

02:22:10   We'll find out.

02:22:11   - Anyway, I'm so curious to hear about everything,

02:22:16   And I'm really hopeful that come next year,

02:22:20   you know, personally I'm super reluctant

02:22:23   to get on a plane right now.

02:22:24   I'm mostly on account of Michaela, you know,

02:22:26   not being eligible for vaccination yet.

02:22:28   I'm hopeful by next year that I will be more willing

02:22:31   and that, you know, maybe I'll get a ticket to the big show

02:22:34   and be able to go and experience it again.

02:22:36   And I am so, so jealous of anyone who is able to go.

02:22:40   And I hope that if you're able to go,

02:22:42   that you have a ton of fun and let me,

02:22:44   maybe not everyone, but maybe not, you know, the other guys,

02:22:46   But let me know what you think,

02:22:48   'cause I'm curious to hear it.

02:22:50   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

02:22:51   Squarespace, Iodine, and HulloPillow.

02:22:54   I cannot wait to go put my head on my HulloPillow.

02:22:56   I'm so tired.

02:22:57   Thanks to our sponsors.

02:22:59   And thank you to our members who support us directly.

02:23:02   You can join us at ATP.FM/join.

02:23:06   And we will talk to you next week.

02:23:09   We will be recording, hopefully,

02:23:10   if it all goes to plan, on Monday,

02:23:13   and hopefully releasing it late that night,

02:23:15   as soon as I'm done with the edit.

02:23:16   So it'll be an exciting day for you to see a week.

02:23:18   If you want it even faster, you should join.

02:23:20   ATV.com/join again, you should join to get the bootleg.

02:23:24   Otherwise, it'll be probably a couple hours later.

02:23:27   But yeah, we can't wait for next week,

02:23:29   and we will talk to you then.

02:23:31   [MUSIC - "AXIDENTAL"]

02:23:34   Now the show is over.

02:23:36   They didn't even mean to begin, because it was accidental.

02:23:41   Oh, it was accidental.

02:23:44   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:23:49   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:23:52   It was accidental (accidental)

02:23:55   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:24:00   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

02:24:05   @c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s

02:24:09   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:24:13   Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C, USA, Syracuse

02:24:20   It's accidental, accidental

02:24:24   They didn't mean to, accidental, accidental

02:24:29   Tech podcast so long

02:24:33   John, I have a question for you.

02:24:35   I think I stole this from somebody who tweeted about it or emailed about it,

02:24:39   but it was a fascinating question that I'd like to hear the answer to.

02:24:42   Are you sleeping more now?

02:24:44   - No, I think we, maybe answer it in rectives,

02:24:47   all these podcasts blend together.

02:24:48   Not really because I'm setting my alarm

02:24:50   for the exact same time I always set it for

02:24:52   because the kids are still in school,

02:24:54   so I have to wake up and get everything ready

02:24:56   and make sure everyone has breakfast.

02:24:58   And I've been cooking breakfast for the kids every morning.

02:25:03   - Tell me what the menu is.

02:25:05   - It's mostly pancakes.

02:25:07   - Pangaea.

02:25:08   (laughing)

02:25:11   Pancakes, fruit, mixing it up with different,

02:25:14   doing some experiments with the pancake mixtures

02:25:16   and stuff like that, but yeah, mostly pancakes.

02:25:19   - Do you have any micro horseradish on your menu?

02:25:22   - I do not, but yeah, no, my sleep is about the same,

02:25:26   which is to say probably still not enough

02:25:28   because I'm still setting an alarm,

02:25:29   but once summer comes,

02:25:30   I'm hoping I'll be able to sleep in more.

02:25:33   - That was my next question.

02:25:34   Are you taking the summer off,

02:25:35   so are you just sleeping until you wake up?

02:25:37   Is that, well, that's dangerous for you

02:25:39   'cause you wouldn't wake up till like two.

02:25:40   Until I wake up come on what universe is this do you have a family?

02:25:45   I wake up maybe if by the rest of my family and my dog who left the house

02:25:51   I haven't slept past 730 in like 10 years, so I'm not I'm not saying I'm living the dream

02:25:57   Yeah, no, I'm not I'm not sleeping until I wake up

02:26:00   That's not a thing you know anyone considering having pets and or children and or a spouse

02:26:07   Not really I think but no hopefully I'll be able to sleep longer the kids mostly sleep in but the dog does not sleep

02:26:13   So Daisy's getting you up at what time and neither does my wife. Yeah, Daisy wants to

02:26:18   Daisy will if if it's before six you can safely go to the bathroom and return to the bed if it is after six you

02:26:25   cannot

02:26:27   Fair enough no and are you napping at all? No, I'm not a napper

02:26:33   Yeah, I said that too and that lasted like six months and then suddenly suddenly I became a nap

02:26:39   I don't think I'll ever be a napper until I'm so old that it's just I can't tell what day it is anymore

02:26:43   And it doesn't matter but no I don't

02:26:45   Take a nap and then I wake up and it's like my entire life is ruined. I have no idea what's going on

02:26:51   That used to what planet I'm on is this real life. I'm just terrible. I just do not like it

02:26:57   [BEEPING]