ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► We have a slightly different live stream set up this time.

00:00:04 ◼   ► I didn't even check that, let me see.

00:00:06 ◼   ► We're still streaming to the audio channel, basically,

00:00:09 ◼   ► like the Icecast MP3 server.

00:00:11 ◼   ► Still streaming to that, but our wonderful application

00:00:15 ◼   ► I use over here, Audio Hijack, a while back added support

00:00:18 ◼   ► to also stream to RTMP, RTSP,

00:00:23 ◼   ► whatever the streaming protocols are

00:00:25 ◼   ► that you can stream to Twitch and stuff,

00:00:27 ◼   ► or YouTube Live or whatever else.

00:00:28 ◼   ► And so they have this thing.

00:00:30 ◼   ► So I figured for high volume WWDC season,

00:00:35 ◼   ► this would be a good opportunity to test out one of these.

00:00:38 ◼   ► And between YouTube Live and Twitch,

00:00:43 ◼   ► the reason I went with Twitch is because,

00:00:45 ◼   ► to the best of my knowledge, YouTube Live

00:00:48 ◼   ► requires you to create the video entry in their CMS

00:00:51 ◼   ► before you can stream.

00:00:53 ◼   ► And you have to do that each time.

00:00:54 ◼   ► You create a new one each time.

00:00:56 ◼   ► Whereas Twitch, you just have a channel,

00:00:57 ◼   ► and you can just put in your stream key

00:01:00 ◼   ► as the authentication token in the streaming app,

00:01:02 ◼   ► and you can just hit go whenever you want,

00:01:04 ◼   ► and you don't have to do a new setup each episode

00:01:07 ◼   ► or each time you wanna hit go.

00:01:09 ◼   ► So for my purposes, Twitch was way easier for this purpose,

00:01:12 ◼   ► even though we don't actually intend to use Twitch

00:01:17 ◼   ► like as a major platform for any other reason,

00:01:20 ◼   ► but for this particular purpose, it seemed to go well there.

00:01:24 ◼   ► So I do intend to use this setup next week

00:01:27 ◼   ► during WVDC to provide extra capacity,

00:01:30 ◼   ► which is the whole reason I did it in the first place.

00:01:33 ◼   ► Because typically WVDC shows usually really max out

00:01:36 ◼   ► our live stream server and some people can't get through

00:01:39 ◼   ► or it drops the connection or something.

00:01:40 ◼   ► So the Twitch version should be much more reliable.

00:01:43 ◼   ► I should note also this is an audio only stream.

00:01:46 ◼   ► It's generating some kind of like basic visualization.

00:01:49 ◼   ► Also that's also a built in feature of AudioHijack,

00:01:52 ◼   ► but it's not showing our faces or anything.

00:01:54 ◼   ► So you're not missing like a video version of it.

00:01:56 ◼   ► Yeah, so anyway, so I'm gonna be doing this next week,

00:01:58 ◼   ► and if this actually proves to be useful,

00:02:02 ◼   ► maybe we'll do more of it in the future.

00:02:05 ◼   ► But it'll at least be this week and next week.

00:02:07 ◼   ► - All right, let's do some follow-up,

00:02:11 ◼   ► 'cause we probably have a big episode.

00:02:12 ◼   ► I wanted to briefly mention and say thank you

00:02:15 ◼   ► to those who signed up for FastMail using my referral,

00:02:20 ◼   ► because this is the first of the month,

00:02:21 ◼   ► and that's when FastMail reports in

00:02:23 ◼   ► on your referral earnings, and I am happy to say

00:02:25 ◼   ► I now have a year of free Fast Mail, baby, woo!

00:02:28 ◼   ► I'm excited, so.

00:02:29 ◼   ► - Pretty soon you'll have that big payout

00:02:30 ◼   ► that you'll be like, oh, now I gotta have them pay me out

00:02:32 ◼   ► 'cause it's too much, I'll never use it in 100 years.

00:02:35 ◼   ► - If I could only be so lucky.

00:02:36 ◼   ► - Oh, that should be how we fund your XDR,

00:02:39 ◼   ► even though, I mean, I know that joke's kind of over

00:02:41 ◼   ► because you got the other monitor,

00:02:43 ◼   ► but it would be kind of a great way, you know,

00:02:46 ◼   ► to somehow to accumulate $5,000 of

00:02:51 ◼   ► referral credit on Fast Mail.

00:02:53 ◼   ► - That would be amazing, so.

00:02:54 ◼   ► - I'm just gonna get Fastmount to be a sponsor again.

00:02:56 ◼   ► - That would also be a much easier route.

00:02:58 ◼   ► - I feel like when somebody's a sponsor,

00:03:00 ◼   ► that's like your salary,

00:03:02 ◼   ► like you're getting paid to do your job,

00:03:03 ◼   ► whereas affiliate money feels like free money.

00:03:06 ◼   ► It feels like fun money, you know?

00:03:08 ◼   ► - Yep, I agree with that. - Like I wasn't expecting,

00:03:09 ◼   ► I didn't do anything for this,

00:03:10 ◼   ► I just arrived in my inbox.

00:03:13 ◼   ► - Indeed, and so I arrived in my inbox this morning

00:03:15 ◼   ► that I got $63.50 in referral cash,

00:03:19 ◼   ► so that means I have next year,

00:03:22 ◼   ► 'cause I've already paid for this year,

00:03:23 ◼   ► I have next year for free. So keep it coming, folks. That's www.caseylist.com/fastmail

00:03:30 ◼   ► is a redirect to my referral page if you are interested. And all self-serving plugging

00:03:37 ◼   ► aside, I am still extremely happy with Fastmail. I'm very glad that I switched. I have been

00:03:42 ◼   ► really pleased with it. And that is the truth. I'm not saying that because I've been instructed

00:03:46 ◼   ► to. I'm not saying that because I just want free service. That really honestly is the

00:03:50 ◼   ► truth. So if you're interested at all.

00:03:53 ◼   ► towards the XDR. Something like that. Three dollars at a time. Three bucks at a

00:03:57 ◼   ► time, maybe. But I really have been enjoying it. And you know, even if I don't,

00:04:02 ◼   ► even if I can't afford an XDR, I do still have this LG 5K to my right-hand side

00:04:07 ◼   ► and it would be much nicer if it was a second, if it was a second studio display.

00:04:11 ◼   ► So, you know, you could always do that. So ATP.FM/join and caselist.com/fastmail.

00:04:17 ◼   ► All the referrals. We got some extremely important feedback from a bunch of

00:04:21 ◼   ► different people so I can't cite just one. This is I think mostly for Marco

00:04:26 ◼   ► actually. The Price is Right is available for free, at least in the States,

00:04:30 ◼   ► potentially elsewhere, on Pluto TV, which is something I'd never heard of.

00:04:35 ◼   ► No sign up is required, or so we were told. I did not confirm this.

00:04:39 ◼   ► And it is all the Bob Barker era, which honestly I don't know how well that

00:04:44 ◼   ► holds up at this point, but nevertheless it is what is probably considered to be

00:04:48 ◼   ► the golden age of Price is Right.

00:04:51 ◼   ► So, should Adam fall under the weather again,

00:04:54 ◼   ► you can go to Pluto.tv and you can check out

00:04:58 ◼   ► the Price is Right.

00:04:59 ◼   ► - But it's got ads on it, right?

00:05:01 ◼   ► And it doesn't have period specific ads,

00:05:03 ◼   ► which would be cool.

00:05:04 ◼   ► - That would be very cool. - Well, slightly more cool.

00:05:06 ◼   ► Instead, it's got modern ads, which are not cool.

00:05:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, and it has modern, I think,

00:05:11 ◼   ► bargain basement streaming service ads,

00:05:13 ◼   ► which are all, it's like, these are not things

00:05:16 ◼   ► that are fun or not able to watch in any way.

00:05:18 ◼   ► Like I said, I actually did go and watch a few minutes of it

00:05:22 ◼   ► and it was interesting.

00:05:24 ◼   ► I didn't know about this entire service, Pluto TV,

00:05:27 ◼   ► and I heard also there's like a Roku channel,

00:05:29 ◼   ► but I think that's just this.

00:05:30 ◼   ► It seemed like there's a few different front ends

00:05:32 ◼   ► that are just all going to this service.

00:05:34 ◼   ► But it was so interesting watching,

00:05:38 ◼   ► 'cause what I saw was a version of it that was,

00:05:42 ◼   ► even from before I watched it,

00:05:44 ◼   ► it was like Bob Barker when his hair was still brown,

00:05:46 ◼   ► or at least it was colored brown.

00:05:48 ◼   ► But it was like an old version, I think from the '70s,

00:05:52 ◼   ► before my time, and of course he was being kind of a jerk

00:05:57 ◼   ► to the contestants, and it was like,

00:05:58 ◼   ► oh yeah, I'm not sure how well this holds up.

00:06:01 ◼   ► But it was very entertaining to see.

00:06:03 ◼   ► - All right, we got some relatively long feedback,

00:06:05 ◼   ► but I found it to be absolutely fascinating

00:06:07 ◼   ► from an anonymous person that works

00:06:09 ◼   ► for an Apple Fitness Plus competitor.

00:06:11 ◼   ► And I'm gonna read a lot, but not all of this verbatim,

00:06:15 ◼   ► And again, I just found this to be absolutely fascinating.

00:06:16 ◼   ► So this was with regard to the Apple+ Studio Tour

00:06:19 ◼   ► that I was embittered that wasn't really

00:06:22 ◼   ► a studio tour at all, and how they

00:06:24 ◼   ► go about making these videos.

00:06:26 ◼   ► And so this individual writes, "After taping a show

00:06:29 ◼   ► from the control room comes what is called the line cut.

00:06:33 ◼   ► This line cut is not the show that will be distributed.

00:06:35 ◼   ► It is more like a blueprint, a reference for the editors

00:06:38 ◼   ► to work with.

00:06:38 ◼   ► Some directors even request their audio recorded

00:06:40 ◼   ► as a separate track so they can give directions to the editor,

00:06:43 ◼   ► like "Don't use this camera!" or "Resize this shot!"

00:06:46 ◼   ► It's like having your own private DVD commentary track.

00:06:48 ◼   ► The line cut goes to the assistant editors.

00:06:50 ◼   ► They recreate the cut using the raw footage from the camera cards.

00:06:52 ◼   ► It's a rather automated process, although depending on the show's setup,

00:06:55 ◼   ► sometimes it's done manually.

00:06:57 ◼   ► You want to work with the uncompressed footage and no color correction,

00:07:00 ◼   ► since there will be a proper color pass once the cut is locked.

00:07:02 ◼   ► The line cut is both compressed and has a temporary color filter.

00:07:05 ◼   ► So, once the cut is rebuilt as a multicam project, it goes to the editor.

00:07:08 ◼   ► Why an editor still? Well, like you mentioned in the podcast,

00:07:11 ◼   ► Many times we have to correct mistakes, replacing segments that had to be re-shot or cut around

00:07:15 ◼   ► smaller blunders, but there is a lot more than that.

00:07:18 ◼   ► For instance, even with the best crew, there tends to be a slight delay between the director

00:07:21 ◼   ► calling a camera and the shot actually changing.

00:07:23 ◼   ► This is not a big deal for an award show, but with a workout video, you might have missed

00:07:27 ◼   ► the beginning of a move or the trainer pointing out something that is very important and could

00:07:31 ◼   ► prevent users from injury.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And there's also some creative stuff.

00:07:34 ◼   ► Perhaps the director called a shot and then it turns out that one of the other cameras

00:07:37 ◼   ► found something much better.

00:07:38 ◼   ► The process is more involved than it might seem, and often the show is very different

00:07:42 ◼   ► after it goes through editing.

00:07:44 ◼   ► So I thought that was all fascinating, that even if they're doing kind of a "screw it,

00:07:48 ◼   ► we'll do it live" sort of thing, they still will go back in most cases and re-edit everything

00:07:54 ◼   ► using this kind of quasi-director's commentary as a blueprint, which was super cool.

00:07:58 ◼   ► This is tangentially related—this is Casey talking—this is tangentially related, but

00:08:02 ◼   ► I found it to also be completely wild—

00:08:04 ◼   ► This is Casey talking.

00:08:05 ◼   ► Well, sorry, I didn't want it to sound like—that was a very awkward turn of phrase.

00:08:07 ◼   ► I didn't want it to, we'll fix it in post here.

00:08:10 ◼   ► Demarco, please use a different line for that.

00:08:12 ◼   ► That's your director's commentary right there, baby.

00:08:16 ◼   ► No, I didn't want it, I felt like it sounded

00:08:18 ◼   ► like I was still reading verbatim,

00:08:19 ◼   ► and in an awkward way only I could.

00:08:22 ◼   ► I've ruined everything.

00:08:23 ◼   ► All right, so this was a little tidbit

00:08:26 ◼   ► that I also found interesting that's tangentially related.

00:08:29 ◼   ► I had no idea this was a thing.

00:08:30 ◼   ► So now this is no longer Casey talking,

00:08:32 ◼   ► and this is back to the individual.

00:08:34 ◼   ► - Isn't it?

00:08:34 ◼   ► - Shush, just go with it, just go with it.

00:08:37 ◼   ► - This is Casey Actual.

00:08:39 ◼   ► We all learned the meaning of that from "Ballast Alactica"

00:08:42 ◼   ► I've already forgotten.

00:08:42 ◼   ► - No. - I've never seen it.

00:08:44 ◼   ► - What, you've never seen "Ballast Alactica," what?

00:08:46 ◼   ► - You're gonna have to wait for Casey to come back.

00:08:47 ◼   ► I'm sorry, this is the feedback person.

00:08:50 ◼   ► - I don't understand,

00:08:50 ◼   ► I don't know why you're still surprising me.

00:08:52 ◼   ► I don't know, I'd start to say Casey's seen some stuff,

00:08:56 ◼   ► he's seen things, not like people say.

00:08:58 ◼   ► Never seen "Ballast Alactica," all right, fine.

00:09:00 ◼   ► - By the way, about the remote work thing,

00:09:03 ◼   ► in case you are not familiar with the technology,

00:09:05 ◼   ► it is rather amazing.

00:09:05 ◼   ► Mac Pro, which I use, is in some data center miles away, and you connect to it

00:09:10 ◼   ► via the regular internet using a little terminal, which happens to be an Amulet

00:09:13 ◼   ► Hotkey DXZ4. It is indistinguishable from having a local computer. We live in the

00:09:18 ◼   ► future. So that was all that this person said. This is Casey talking. That was all

00:09:23 ◼   ► this person said, and so I had to figure out what the crap is an Amulet

00:09:28 ◼   ► Hotkey DXZ4. And so of course I went digging about, and I found their

00:09:34 ◼   ► marketing site or whatever, which was very enterprisey and not entirely helpful, but

00:09:39 ◼   ► I eventually got to the following little snippet.

00:09:42 ◼   ► So it's a box, and it's PCOIP, which I presume means, you know, Personal Computer over IP.

00:09:47 ◼   ► And so from their site, the PCOIP host includes USB, audio, and video from the host, and then--excuse

00:09:54 ◼   ► me--encodes USB, audio, and video from the host, and then compresses and encrypts the

00:09:57 ◼   ► data for transmission across standard IP networks to the Xero client.

00:10:01 ◼   ► The Xero Client then decrypts and decompresses the data and delivers it to the desktop monitors

00:10:05 ◼   ► and peripherals.

00:10:06 ◼   ► The Xero Client also passes user-generated USB and audio data to the PCoIP host.

00:10:11 ◼   ► Only the display pixels are sent to the client, so no sensitive data ever reaches the client.

00:10:15 ◼   ► So this is a box that has two network cables, two RJ45 jacks for redundancy purposes, also

00:10:22 ◼   ► available, gentlemen, two SFP jacks, which are fiber connectors.

00:10:27 ◼   ► Just in case someone was bananas enough to use fiber in the home, but who would ever

00:10:30 ◼   ► do that, am I right? It can support, it has four HDMI ports, so it can do four 1920 by 1200 displays,

00:10:37 ◼   ► or two 34 by, excuse me, 3440 by 1440 displays, and it has four USB-A ports for like keyboards and

00:10:45 ◼   ► microphones and things of that nature. So this is a little box that you plug it in your house,

00:10:49 ◼   ► and it's basically like you're using a Mac Pro that literally is miles and miles and miles away,

00:10:55 ◼   ► but it's as though you're sitting in front of it. And I was talking to a couple different people

00:10:59 ◼   ► that do work like this, and they said that in modern times,

00:11:02 ◼   ► it is nearly indistinguishable

00:11:03 ◼   ► from being in front of the computer,

00:11:05 ◼   ► which to me is utterly bananas,

00:11:06 ◼   ► because I'll use VNC to go from the downstairs to the upstairs,

00:11:10 ◼   ► and it is very distinguishable

00:11:11 ◼   ► from sitting in front of the computer.

00:11:13 ◼   ► So I found this to be absolutely fascinating.

00:11:15 ◼   ► Maybe it's just me.

00:11:17 ◼   ► -Did you ever use X Window system

00:11:18 ◼   ► when you were in school, or was that out of fashion

00:11:20 ◼   ► by the time you got there?

00:11:21 ◼   ► -I did some, but not a ton.

00:11:23 ◼   ► And when I did -- Well, so when I think of X Window,

00:11:27 ◼   ► I just think of a graphical user interface like gnome or what was the other one that was popular Katie. Yes. Thank you

00:11:34 ◼   ► I think of that as X windows

00:11:35 ◼   ► But are you talking about like the more traditional definition where you can have like windows running remotely but shown locally

00:11:42 ◼   ► Is that what you mean? Yeah, it's another way to use it's a way to use a GUI on another computer

00:11:47 ◼   ► That's not the one you're sitting in front of you're sitting in front of an X term

00:11:49 ◼   ► But the much more powerful computer that is elsewhere and maybe across the country maybe in a different building is where you're actually running your things

00:11:56 ◼   ► And I mean any I even next step had something similar to this and the I'm not quite sure how X windows does the thing

00:12:03 ◼   ► But the way next used to do things is with display post script

00:12:07 ◼   ► So instead of sending pixel buffers across the wire because we don't really have bandwidth for that back in the day like VNC was slow

00:12:12 ◼   ► Slow or ugly because it would like massively compress everything

00:12:15 ◼   ► I would send the post scripts can post grip is just like a you know

00:12:18 ◼   ► It's programming language

00:12:19 ◼   ► So you could send an ASCII text and it would send the post script commands over to the over to the x term the x term

00:12:23 ◼   ► would run a PostScript engine and execute those.

00:12:26 ◼   ► So it was sort of a, you know, a lossless compression.

00:12:30 ◼   ► Instead, rather than sending the pixels that get rendered,

00:12:32 ◼   ► you send the rendering commands.

00:12:34 ◼   ► I forgot what they call it, an X hosting,

00:12:36 ◼   ► or I forgot what it was called, an X step.

00:12:37 ◼   ► And I think X might've done,

00:12:39 ◼   ► X11 might've done something similar with sending commands,

00:12:41 ◼   ► but honestly, I don't know how it worked.

00:12:42 ◼   ► But anyway, that was, this is what this reminded me of,

00:12:45 ◼   ► like sitting in front of a computer

00:12:46 ◼   ► that's not the big fancy computer

00:12:49 ◼   ► using a bigger fancier computer with a GUI.

00:12:52 ◼   ► But again, there's no local computer involved here.

00:12:56 ◼   ► Like, I mean, I guess strictly speaking,

00:12:57 ◼   ► this amulet hotkey thing is a computer,

00:12:59 ◼   ► but there's no like traditional computer

00:13:03 ◼   ► at your local station.

00:13:04 ◼   ► - I mean, the Xterm was also not really a computer,

00:13:06 ◼   ► but also, you know, they're Turing complete machines

00:13:09 ◼   ► that have networking and do a thing.

00:13:10 ◼   ► It's just that they're very small nowadays.

00:13:12 ◼   ► But yeah, but the Xterms had no, you know,

00:13:15 ◼   ► not much power, no, I don't think it had any local storage.

00:13:18 ◼   ► It just had a big ethernet port in the back

00:13:21 ◼   ► enough compute to do the job they were asked to do.

00:13:24 ◼   ► Yeah, I just thought this was really wild and really cool.

00:13:26 ◼   ► I remember, I've told this story many times on the show, but it just makes me think of

00:13:30 ◼   ► it when you bring up VNC and stuff.

00:13:32 ◼   ► I remember vividly the first time I saw someone use VNC, I was sitting in my dorm room and

00:13:36 ◼   ► a friend from way on the other end of the hallway came into my room and he was like,

00:13:41 ◼   ► "Oh, can I ask you something real quick?"

00:13:43 ◼   ► And then he asked me a question and then he just sat down to chill out for a little bit.

00:13:47 ◼   ► And then all of a sudden he says, "Oh, shoot, I left my music playing in my room.

00:13:50 ◼   ► "Can I use your computer for a second?" I was like, "What? Yeah?" And so he goes to some website that

00:13:57 ◼   ► looked like, I think it was like an IP address or something like that, and you know with a port

00:14:00 ◼   ► number stacked on the end, and all of a sudden he's looking at another computer and I was like, "What

00:14:05 ◼   ► is this magic? What is happening here?" And sure enough he paused the music in his room from my

00:14:11 ◼   ► room and it was amazing. It was like nothing I had ever seen. This was like late in 2000, maybe early

00:14:19 ◼   ► early 2001, something like that.

00:14:20 ◼   ► And I just thought it was the coolest thing

00:14:21 ◼   ► I've ever seen in my life, it was amazing.

00:14:23 ◼   ► - That was the intention, I guarantee you

00:14:24 ◼   ► that was no accident.

00:14:25 ◼   ► Oh, whoops! - Probably not.

00:14:26 ◼   ► - I'm visiting a fellow nerd, I'm a nerd,

00:14:29 ◼   ► and I accidentally left my music playing.

00:14:31 ◼   ► Oh, excuse me, let me show off.

00:14:33 ◼   ► Yeah, that was totally no accident.

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00:16:33 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:16:36 ◼   ► - John, you discovered a WWDC in-person info/schedule/stuff

00:16:41 ◼   ► in menu even, and I saw this via Paul Hudson.

00:16:46 ◼   ► Maybe you'd seen it from there or from somewhere else,

00:16:48 ◼   ► but we have a little bit of details

00:16:50 ◼   ► for those that are attending.

00:16:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, this is the lottery that they ran.

00:16:54 ◼   ► Basically, they said, "Hey, do you wanna come to California

00:16:57 ◼   ► "and watch some videos with us?"

00:17:00 ◼   ► And the interesting thing is they asked people to sign up

00:17:03 ◼   ► to enter this lottery, not knowing much more than that,

00:17:05 ◼   ► that you're gonna have to come to California,

00:17:07 ◼   ► you're gonna come to Apple Park, whatever that means.

00:17:10 ◼   ► You have a random chance of doing it.

00:17:12 ◼   ► And we're gonna watch the keynote video,

00:17:15 ◼   ► and I think maybe they said State of the Union,

00:17:16 ◼   ► they said videos, plural.

00:17:17 ◼   ► But now I think the people who won this lottery

00:17:22 ◼   ► and who entered and won this lottery

00:17:24 ◼   ► now started to get their sort of itineraries.

00:17:26 ◼   ► And so a couple of people tweeted pictures of it

00:17:28 ◼   ► in typical Apple fashion.

00:17:30 ◼   ► It's just a bunch of white line art on a black background.

00:17:32 ◼   ► but I'll just go through the steps here.

00:17:35 ◼   ► There's check-in at 7 a.m.,

00:17:38 ◼   ► Apple Developer Open House also at 7 a.m.,

00:17:40 ◼   ► and the locations are interesting.

00:17:41 ◼   ► So the check-in is Apple Park Visitor Center.

00:17:43 ◼   ► We know where that is.

00:17:44 ◼   ► We talked about it in the previous show.

00:17:46 ◼   ► Apple Developer Center is that building

00:17:47 ◼   ► that we thought was gonna be whatever,

00:17:50 ◼   ► Tan Tao Road, I don't remember the name of that thing.

00:17:53 ◼   ► Talked about it in a previous show.

00:17:54 ◼   ► Breakfast is in Apple Park Cafe Max.

00:17:57 ◼   ► So that is the big cafeteria thing

00:17:58 ◼   ► with the two giant glass doors that's in the ring building.

00:18:01 ◼   ► So if you want this lottery,

00:18:03 ◼   ► you are gonna go to the ring building

00:18:04 ◼   ► and you're gonna eat in that big cafeteria thing.

00:18:06 ◼   ► And like we talked about a couple shows back,

00:18:10 ◼   ► some anonymous person was telling us about events

00:18:12 ◼   ► where they had like friends and family come to Apple Park

00:18:14 ◼   ► and they have them basically corralled

00:18:16 ◼   ► into the Cafe Max area and some other adjoining areas

00:18:19 ◼   ► so they could use the bathrooms

00:18:20 ◼   ► that are attached to Cafe Max and everything.

00:18:22 ◼   ► So that's where everyone will be.

00:18:23 ◼   ► Then it says it's time for the keynote at 10 a.m.

00:18:25 ◼   ► and the location for that just says Apple Park.

00:18:28 ◼   ► Who knows what that means?

00:18:29 ◼   ► Are they gonna, again, people keep thinking

00:18:30 ◼   ► they're gonna go in the middle of the ring

00:18:31 ◼   ► There's gonna be a screen set up under the rainbow stage who knows but they will you know breakfast is

00:18:37 ◼   ► Inside the ring so it makes sense that the video watching would be somewhere near there as well

00:18:41 ◼   ► Lunch is back to cafe max

00:18:44 ◼   ► State of the Union again back to Apple Park whatever that means

00:18:47 ◼   ► Meet the teams in cafe max. I don't know

00:18:50 ◼   ► They're gonna have a bunch of engineering teams hanging out of tables and you get to go talk to them

00:18:53 ◼   ► And then there's a bunch of tours all happening at the same time. You can tour Apple Park Hills

00:18:59 ◼   ► You can tour the fitness center area case who would be interested in that get a real tour of the fitness center area

00:19:04 ◼   ► Or you can tour cafe max. I mean you've already been there for like, you know meals and meeting the team

00:19:10 ◼   ► So I guess you can see how they make pizzas and put them in the fancy boxes

00:19:14 ◼   ► Yeah, that kind of seems like the overflow option

00:19:16 ◼   ► That's like you didn't get the other two, you know, so you'll fall back to anyway

00:19:20 ◼   ► And then Apple design awards at 4 30 location listed as Apple Park. This is interesting. So seems like a full day

00:19:26 ◼   ► They have a lot of activities for everyone to do.

00:19:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, this implies to me,

00:19:32 ◼   ► and I'm reading heavily between the lines,

00:19:35 ◼   ► but I think they're trying to keep this as open air

00:19:38 ◼   ► as they reasonably can for the big groups.

00:19:41 ◼   ► 'Cause if you think about it,

00:19:43 ◼   ► Cafe Max, like you had mentioned, Jon,

00:19:44 ◼   ► has, from what I've seen, I've never seen it in person,

00:19:47 ◼   ► but from what I've gathered,

00:19:49 ◼   ► those two humongous, humongous, humongous doors

00:19:51 ◼   ► that open incredibly wide and get a ton of airflow,

00:19:53 ◼   ► I would assume, through there.

00:19:55 ◼   ► And plus, doesn't the ring have natural heating and cooling

00:19:59 ◼   ► such that there's a ton of airflow anyway,

00:20:01 ◼   ► or so we were told, something like that?

00:20:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, we should find a picture of this,

00:20:03 ◼   ► 'cause we keep saying doors, but they're not doors.

00:20:05 ◼   ► The whole side of the building moves.

00:20:06 ◼   ► It's like a four-story-high piece of glass.

00:20:08 ◼   ► The whole side of the building just opens up,

00:20:10 ◼   ► and it basically becomes a pass-through.

00:20:12 ◼   ► Imagine a section of the ring that only has the roof on it.

00:20:14 ◼   ► It's kinda like that.

00:20:15 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:20:16 ◼   ► And so that, you could claim as quasi-outdoors,

00:20:20 ◼   ► and then they just say Apple Park.

00:20:22 ◼   ► So if it is indeed somewhere in the center of the ring,

00:20:26 ◼   ► well, that's certainly outdoors.

00:20:27 ◼   ► And then, you know, that means everything

00:20:30 ◼   ► is to some reasonable definition outdoors.

00:20:32 ◼   ► And if you're going to do something

00:20:34 ◼   ► where a bunch of people from a bunch of places

00:20:35 ◼   ► are gathering, if it were me,

00:20:37 ◼   ► I would want as much of this to be outside as possible.

00:20:39 ◼   ► And then if you're doing something inside,

00:20:41 ◼   ► it would only be in smaller groups.

00:20:43 ◼   ► Like if you wanted to tour the fitness center,

00:20:45 ◼   ► which is itself presumably a very large space,

00:20:47 ◼   ► but still indoors, you would probably want a subset

00:20:50 ◼   ► of those that are there doing that.

00:20:52 ◼   ► So this seems to me like they're trying to play this

00:20:56 ◼   ► as reasonably and safely as possible.

00:20:59 ◼   ► We'll see what ends up actually happening.

00:21:01 ◼   ► But I mean, I approve in principle

00:21:03 ◼   ► as someone who is still a nervous Ned about COVID stuff

00:21:06 ◼   ► because Michaela can't get her shot yet.

00:21:08 ◼   ► This seems like as good as one can hope.

00:21:11 ◼   ► I don't know, but there's a menu too.

00:21:13 ◼   ► - Yes, that's the most important part.

00:21:15 ◼   ► They're not gonna get box lunches guys.

00:21:16 ◼   ► I guess you're a cafe max and you can get freshly made food

00:21:19 ◼   ► but there's two menus.

00:21:20 ◼   ► I guess it's kind of like a dinner menu

00:21:22 ◼   ► and a breakfast menu.

00:21:23 ◼   ► So here's the most interesting thing

00:21:24 ◼   ► about the dinner menu.

00:21:25 ◼   ► There's lots of options, I'm sure they're all very good,

00:21:26 ◼   ► but they have kind of an all caps

00:21:28 ◼   ► like category above each one.

00:21:30 ◼   ► And the categories, I feel like this is Apple's

00:21:33 ◼   ► sort of stating what they believe

00:21:35 ◼   ► are the major categories of food,

00:21:37 ◼   ► kind of like the six genders.

00:21:39 ◼   ► Here's what they are, right?

00:21:40 ◼   ► The major categories of food are vegan, Italian,

00:21:45 ◼   ► grill, pangea,

00:21:49 ◼   ► - Indian, Pacific Rim, Romana, Latin, and two desserts.

00:21:54 ◼   ► Yeah, so I mean that covers us, the whole world of food.

00:21:57 ◼   ► Vegan, Italian, Grill, Pangaea, Indian, Pacific Rim,

00:22:00 ◼   ► Romana, Latin, dessert, dessert.

00:22:02 ◼   ► I don't think we missed anything, did we?

00:22:03 ◼   ► 'Cause Pangaea, like Pangaea is everything.

00:22:05 ◼   ► Like it's a giant mega continent

00:22:07 ◼   ► that included all the other continents,

00:22:08 ◼   ► so technically anything not covered by the other categories

00:22:10 ◼   ► is covered by Pangaea.

00:22:11 ◼   ► - Wait, I'm a little curious though.

00:22:13 ◼   ► The Pangaea option is salmon.

00:22:15 ◼   ► Why would they name the fish dish

00:22:18 ◼   ► after a large landmass?

00:22:20 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:22:21 ◼   ► I mean, most of the earth was water

00:22:23 ◼   ► when Pangea was around.

00:22:24 ◼   ► You just had the big giant continent

00:22:26 ◼   ► and maybe there was salmon in that water.

00:22:28 ◼   ► And it seems unlikely.

00:22:29 ◼   ► - I mean, I think they're river fish anyway.

00:22:31 ◼   ► I don't know that much about fish, but-

00:22:32 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, they go back and forth.

00:22:34 ◼   ► - But still, it seemed like a weird thing

00:22:35 ◼   ► to have the one seafood dish

00:22:37 ◼   ► be named after a large landmass.

00:22:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, and so the vegan thing is Kung Pao Tofu

00:22:41 ◼   ► and vegetables Italian.

00:22:42 ◼   ► This is lasagna, grill is barbecue brisket,

00:22:45 ◼   ► Pangea-seared salmon.

00:22:47 ◼   ► Indian is chicken tikka masala,

00:22:48 ◼   ► of grimace high green chicken curry Romana is Romana quattro pizza carne asada burrito is the

00:22:56 ◼   ► Italian and then two desserts are dark chocolate panna cotta and vegan mixed berry cow but this is

00:23:01 ◼   ► a very fancy sounding menu and assuming this food is it's got to be better than the box lunch so I

00:23:06 ◼   ► feel like these people are getting a more premium experience would you eat the lasagna that's exactly

00:23:12 ◼   ► what it's gonna say okay john how do you feel about house-made pasta sheets layered with bolognese

00:23:17 ◼   ► Bechamel, I'm probably pronouncing this all wrong,

00:23:19 ◼   ► Parmigiano served over tomato sauce.

00:23:21 ◼   ► How do you feel about that, Jon?

00:23:22 ◼   ► - I have had bad luck with Italian food in California.

00:23:25 ◼   ► California's a big place.

00:23:26 ◼   ► I have been to only a tiny, tiny portion of it

00:23:29 ◼   ► and then mostly had boxed lunches.

00:23:30 ◼   ► So it's not a judgment on whether, you know,

00:23:33 ◼   ► about an entire state.

00:23:34 ◼   ► All I'm saying is that with the tiny, tiny

00:23:36 ◼   ► amount of experience I've had in California,

00:23:38 ◼   ► I have not had good luck with Italian food.

00:23:40 ◼   ► I feel like I would probably go with something

00:23:42 ◼   ► that would have a higher chance of being good.

00:23:46 ◼   ► so maybe the burrito, which the area is,

00:23:49 ◼   ► the few tiny areas in California that I have been to

00:23:51 ◼   ► are known for having good burritos.

00:23:52 ◼   ► I feel like there's a higher chance of that one being good.

00:23:55 ◼   ► I probably would not pick a lasagna.

00:23:57 ◼   ► - The burrito filled with carne asada, Spanish rice,

00:23:59 ◼   ► black beans, pico de gallo, and mozzarella cheese,

00:24:01 ◼   ► served with red and green salsa and corn tortilla chips.

00:24:04 ◼   ► That does sound solid.

00:24:05 ◼   ► - That sounds a little weird.

00:24:07 ◼   ► I don't know, I don't think I would pick the Italian

00:24:10 ◼   ► out of this choice.

00:24:11 ◼   ► - I would absolutely choose barbecue brisket,

00:24:13 ◼   ► a slow roasted beef brisket glazed

00:24:15 ◼   ► with our house-made barbecue sauce

00:24:16 ◼   ► served with three cheese macaroni and cheese.

00:24:18 ◼   ► I mean, even if the brisket stinks,

00:24:19 ◼   ► the mac and cheese is probably gonna be passable.

00:24:21 ◼   ► Worst, so sold.

00:24:23 ◼   ► - Do hyphens cost a lot of money in California?

00:24:26 ◼   ► - Wow. - You're such a grump.

00:24:28 ◼   ► - What should be hyphenated here?

00:24:29 ◼   ► - Like every other word.

00:24:30 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:24:31 ◼   ► - I mean, these have to be like standard dishes

00:24:33 ◼   ► in Cafe Mac, so just ask Apple people.

00:24:35 ◼   ► What's good that they make there out of this choice?

00:24:38 ◼   ► They'd know which one to pick.

00:24:40 ◼   ► - I think I would, the Pacific Rim,

00:24:42 ◼   ► the Thai green chicken curry sounds good.

00:24:44 ◼   ► I also might go to the vegan Kung Pao tofu and vegetables.

00:24:48 ◼   ► To me, for whatever it's worth,

00:24:49 ◼   ► I haven't been to the ring yet,

00:24:51 ◼   ► but we did go to the visitor center there

00:24:54 ◼   ► and they had a little coffee shop there

00:24:55 ◼   ► and I remember that being very good.

00:24:57 ◼   ► And also, years ago, we were lucky enough

00:25:02 ◼   ► to go to the Infinite Loop campus at one point

00:25:06 ◼   ► and I ate at Cafe Max there and that was excellent.

00:25:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, it really was.

00:25:11 ◼   ► And so I'm hoping that they continue the tradition

00:25:15 ◼   ► with the new building, and they probably have.

00:25:17 ◼   ► Their record on the food they serve their employees,

00:25:20 ◼   ► as far as I know, is pretty solid.

00:25:22 ◼   ► So I would expect this to all be pretty good, really.

00:25:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, I went to, this was not with the two of y'all,

00:25:28 ◼   ► but I went to, I think it's called Alves?

00:25:30 ◼   ► I probably pronounced that wrong as well.

00:25:31 ◼   ► But it was, I was told it was like a rough draft

00:25:36 ◼   ► for what became Cafe Max in the ring,

00:25:38 ◼   ► and that was super fancy as well,

00:25:40 ◼   ► and that was really good to my recollection.

00:25:42 ◼   ► So yeah, to me, I would do barbecue brisket,

00:25:45 ◼   ► maybe the seared salmon, seared salmon served

00:25:46 ◼   ► over roasted vegetable, almost said quinoa

00:25:49 ◼   ► from the commercial, quinoa salad.

00:25:51 ◼   ► Did you ever see that commercial?

00:25:52 ◼   ► Quinoa, what is a quinoa?

00:25:54 ◼   ► Anyway, but that's probably what I would choose.

00:25:56 ◼   ► But no, I mean, this looks pretty decent.

00:25:58 ◼   ► Now, however, I have also not spent

00:26:01 ◼   ► an overabundance of time in California.

00:26:03 ◼   ► And I think I can still be so bold as to say,

00:26:08 ◼   ► Finding a decent, nay, passable bagel in the entire state of California is challenging from everything I've understood,

00:26:15 ◼   ► both from locals and from my own experience.

00:26:18 ◼   ► Jon, how do you feel about the San... San D'Aniele Prosciutto bagel, everything bagel, San D'Aniele Prosciutto,

00:26:25 ◼   ► Mars Carpone cream, heirloom tomato, and micro horseradish?

00:26:29 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm... I mean, random bagels I just avoid everywhere, definitely, in California I would avoid them.

00:26:36 ◼   ► Although again, like these fresh fruit,

00:26:38 ◼   ► can't go wrong with that.

00:26:39 ◼   ► Barry's Parfait, hard to mess that up.

00:26:41 ◼   ► This is like a seed, so the breakfast menu

00:26:43 ◼   ► we're looking at here.

00:26:44 ◼   ► Although something occurs to me looking at all of this.

00:26:47 ◼   ► So part of Apple having reportedly good food

00:26:51 ◼   ► for its employees is unlike Google and Facebook

00:26:55 ◼   ► and stuff like that, it's not free.

00:26:56 ◼   ► The employees pay for the food.

00:26:57 ◼   ► Now maybe they're paying a subsidized price,

00:27:00 ◼   ► but they do pay money is my understanding for their food.

00:27:03 ◼   ► But looking at this big list here,

00:27:05 ◼   ► I don't see any prices.

00:27:07 ◼   ► So if you won the lottery and got to go to this,

00:27:11 ◼   ► you know, come to Apple Park and watch WWC videos with us,

00:27:15 ◼   ► do you get this food for free or are they gonna make you pay?

00:27:18 ◼   ► - I would hope they did it for free, but Apple is cheap.

00:27:20 ◼   ► So I wouldn't be surprised if we have to pay.

00:27:21 ◼   ► - Well, at the same time, like the employees have to pay

00:27:23 ◼   ► and they're Apple employees, but you're just guessing

00:27:25 ◼   ► this is a one-time special thing, so maybe it's all free.

00:27:27 ◼   ► This is what we need reporting on.

00:27:29 ◼   ► We need people on the ground, we need photos,

00:27:31 ◼   ► we need to say, did you pay and get a group together

00:27:34 ◼   ► and everyone get one of the entrees

00:27:35 ◼   ► and tell us which one was the best.

00:27:37 ◼   ► - Right, next week everyone's gonna be talking about

00:27:40 ◼   ► the new AR framework or whatever,

00:27:42 ◼   ► and we're gonna be talking about

00:27:43 ◼   ► whether you had to pay for your San Daniel Prosciutto Bagel.

00:27:46 ◼   ► - Well, once you're on Thursday,

00:27:49 ◼   ► Thursday of WWDC week,

00:27:51 ◼   ► people start thinking about the food a little bit more.

00:27:53 ◼   ► Not that people are gonna be there till Thursday,

00:27:54 ◼   ► but I'm saying eventually you get tired of sessions

00:27:57 ◼   ► and it's time to talk about the food.

00:27:59 ◼   ► - So anyway, so we should, for completeness sake,

00:28:01 ◼   ► we should read this.

00:28:02 ◼   ► the aforementioned prosciutto bagel, smoked salmon and caviar bagel,

00:28:06 ◼   ► almond butter and avocado toast, very on brand for California, fresh fruit, Barry's Parfait, overnight oats, and assorted mini breakfast

00:28:12 ◼   ► pastries, as well as a beverage selection of Cafe Max juices, coffee, tea, and water.

00:28:17 ◼   ► I'm gonna go with the assorted breakfast pastries.

00:28:19 ◼   ► That's one of my favorite parts of WWC back when we would go to it in person is assorted breakfast pastries.

00:28:24 ◼   ► Indeed. Really hard to screw up like

00:28:26 ◼   ► extremely over buttered, sugar glazed

00:28:30 ◼   ► Pastries with fruit inside them. Well, this is this is what people tune in for. This is the important work

00:28:34 ◼   ► So I'm glad John these by that

00:28:36 ◼   ► Isn't it weird to you that the only breakfast bagel options contain either meat or fish on top? No

00:28:42 ◼   ► Lots, it's a locks bagel or it's something that vaguely resembles a lot of prosciutto is not locks

00:28:49 ◼   ► And no, no, no, it's a very confused California. I mean that bagels not gonna be a big one

00:28:53 ◼   ► It was gonna be really hard dense. Not very good bread. Yeah. Well, that's true. I'm talking more about the smoked salmon one

00:28:58 ◼   ► I do wonder what is micro horseradish made from tiny horses. I don't know. This is I have so many questions

00:29:03 ◼   ► No, the smoked salmon bagel with caviar because of course

00:29:06 ◼   ► That that to me is some fancy person's, you know, I'm too cool for you

00:29:12 ◼   ► Artisanal take on a lox bagel, you know with cream cheese or whatever, but totally what are you gonna do?

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00:31:11 ◼   ► Give the gift of better sleep to yourself or a loved one.

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00:31:17 ◼   ► Thanks to Hello for supporting my neck

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00:31:20 ◼   ► - All right, Jon, let's talk about what everyone

00:31:27 ◼   ► has been dying to talk about.

00:31:29 ◼   ► Let's talk about your Mac Studio.

00:31:30 ◼   ► - So I mentioned last year that I had my Mac Studio,

00:31:32 ◼   ► but I hadn't even opened the box

00:31:34 ◼   ► and that I should do that.

00:31:35 ◼   ► And when I did, I had to give a report

00:31:38 ◼   ► on the fan noise and everything.

00:31:40 ◼   ► And so I figured if I'm gonna open it up

00:31:42 ◼   ► and hook it up to something, I should probably,

00:31:44 ◼   ► you know, do the migration as well,

00:31:46 ◼   ► because it's a time consuming process.

00:31:48 ◼   ► So that's what I did.

00:31:49 ◼   ► I opened it up, I connected to my 4K monitor,

00:31:52 ◼   ► and then I had to hook it up to my Mac's iMac

00:31:53 ◼   ► to start doing the migration.

00:31:55 ◼   ► And I realized when I was hooking it up

00:31:56 ◼   ► that I had, you know, done all this preparation,

00:31:58 ◼   ► got all this stuff together, you know,

00:32:00 ◼   ► doing the AV preparation, doing my Mac Studio preparation.

00:32:03 ◼   ► I didn't think about getting a cable to connect

00:32:07 ◼   ► the Mac Studio to a 2015 5K iMac.

00:32:12 ◼   ► That 5G iMac has on the back of it a bunch of USB-A ports,

00:32:16 ◼   ► an ethernet port, and a bunch of Thunderbolt 2 ports,

00:32:21 ◼   ► which look like a mini display port,

00:32:22 ◼   ► like that's the shape of the connector.

00:32:24 ◼   ► And I swore that I had a Thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter,

00:32:29 ◼   ► like one of the white Apple dongles,

00:32:31 ◼   ► and a Thunderbolt 2 cable.

00:32:33 ◼   ► And I was close, I had the adapter.

00:32:34 ◼   ► In fact, I have two of those adapters.

00:32:36 ◼   ► So I was excited about that,

00:32:38 ◼   ► but I don't have a Thunderbolt 2 cable.

00:32:40 ◼   ► I'm like, well, you know,

00:32:41 ◼   ► I thought I had a Thunderbolt 2 cable laying around,

00:32:42 ◼   ► but I know I did a big cable cleanup recently,

00:32:44 ◼   ► so who knows where that is.

00:32:46 ◼   ► But I was like, well, worst case scenario,

00:32:47 ◼   ► I know where I can get one.

00:32:48 ◼   ► I have a Thunderbolt display upstairs.

00:32:51 ◼   ► And I looked all over the house, couldn't find one.

00:32:52 ◼   ► I'm like, all right, time to go get the Thunderbolt display.

00:32:55 ◼   ► So I go up there, move all the boxes,

00:32:56 ◼   ► get up the giant Thunderbolt display box, open it up,

00:32:59 ◼   ► and the cable is stuck to the back of that monitor.

00:33:03 ◼   ► - Oh no.

00:33:04 ◼   ► - It's like, it's the rat tail that comes off of it,

00:33:07 ◼   ► and the other end is not removable.

00:33:09 ◼   ► It's just inside the monitor.

00:33:11 ◼   ► So that was sad.

00:33:13 ◼   ► So I'm like, all right, well, I did some math.

00:33:15 ◼   ► It's a little bit of math.

00:33:16 ◼   ► I'm like, OK, ethernet, one gigabit, right?

00:33:19 ◼   ► How much data is on the SSD?

00:33:20 ◼   ► How long will it take?

00:33:21 ◼   ► I came up with an estimate of like four hours.

00:33:23 ◼   ► I'm like, that's not that bad.

00:33:26 ◼   ► And this is another time to sing the praises of Migration

00:33:29 ◼   ► Assistant.

00:33:30 ◼   ► I don't remember when the last time I used it was,

00:33:32 ◼   ► but use it again here.

00:33:34 ◼   ► I've plugged the machines in, ethernet,

00:33:36 ◼   ► follow the instructions, you know.

00:33:38 ◼   ► and then it brings up the migration assistant thing

00:33:40 ◼   ► and it gives you an option of what I want.

00:33:42 ◼   ► And then while it's running, it has like this little,

00:33:45 ◼   ► you know, blue link thing that you can press.

00:33:47 ◼   ► It says like connection info or connection details.

00:33:49 ◼   ► And it shows you all the connections

00:33:51 ◼   ► that are available to it that it speed tested.

00:33:54 ◼   ► And I just plugged an ethernet cable.

00:33:56 ◼   ► So it said, ethernet speed tested to, you know,

00:33:59 ◼   ► 900 megabits or whatever.

00:34:01 ◼   ► It was like almost a gigabit, right?

00:34:02 ◼   ► And then it said peer to peer speed tested to 50 megabits.

00:34:07 ◼   ► And then it said Wi-Fi speed tested to 40 megabytes.

00:34:10 ◼   ► Peer to peer is like when it does the sort of air drop

00:34:12 ◼   ► peer to peer wireless network without going through

00:34:14 ◼   ► like the euros essentially, right?

00:34:16 ◼   ► And these are two machines that are like two feet away,

00:34:17 ◼   ► but it was great that it showed me all the options

00:34:19 ◼   ► and showed me that I was using the fastest one.

00:34:21 ◼   ► And then it even had a tip that said,

00:34:23 ◼   ► "Hint, to make this go faster,

00:34:25 ◼   ► "connect through Thunderbolt."

00:34:26 ◼   ► I'm like, yeah, I know, thanks.

00:34:28 ◼   ► So. - That's cool.

00:34:29 ◼   ► I didn't know it had that whole thing.

00:34:31 ◼   ► - It's really cool.

00:34:32 ◼   ► It's really nice.

00:34:33 ◼   ► And then it says just connect the Thunderbolt

00:34:34 ◼   ► to make it go faster.

00:34:35 ◼   ► And I was like, that probably means

00:34:36 ◼   ► that if I did have a Thunderbolt 2 cable,

00:34:38 ◼   ► I could just plug it in while it's running

00:34:40 ◼   ► and it would just swap to it and go faster.

00:34:42 ◼   ► So it started running and it's like,

00:34:45 ◼   ► it took a long time to even get an estimate

00:34:47 ◼   ► 'cause it's counting files,

00:34:48 ◼   ► it's like millions of files or whatever.

00:34:49 ◼   ► And eventually it gives an estimate like,

00:34:52 ◼   ► 20, 30 minutes into it and says,

00:34:53 ◼   ► it's gonna be like four or five hours.

00:34:55 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, well, I'll just let it run.

00:34:58 ◼   ► But then I realized, well,

00:34:59 ◼   ► I can just go get a Thunderbolt 2 cable.

00:35:02 ◼   ► And I was like, well, do I know where I can find one?

00:35:04 ◼   ► Do I wanna drive to the Apple Store?

00:35:05 ◼   ► and then I remember the Marco solution,

00:35:07 ◼   ► or maybe also the Cayce solution,

00:35:09 ◼   ► which is do that courier thing where you pay $10

00:35:11 ◼   ► and someone drives it to your house, like in an hour.

00:35:13 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:35:14 ◼   ► - So I did that.

00:35:15 ◼   ► Apple had a six foot long Thunderbolt 2 cable,

00:35:17 ◼   ► which I was worried they wouldn't even have what they did.

00:35:19 ◼   ► I just ordered it on my phone and paid the extra nine bucks

00:35:23 ◼   ► for them to courier it to my house.

00:35:24 ◼   ► And someone came to my house with a Thunderbolt cable

00:35:26 ◼   ► in a little tiny baggie.

00:35:28 ◼   ► And then I plugged it into the computer,

00:35:29 ◼   ► the back one computer with the little two to three adapter

00:35:32 ◼   ► and then in the back of the iMac.

00:35:34 ◼   ► And it noticed the connection was there.

00:35:35 ◼   ► It speed tested it to like 800 megabytes per second,

00:35:38 ◼   ► which is faster than one gigabit for people doing the math.

00:35:41 ◼   ► And then it switched to it.

00:35:43 ◼   ► And it started to go way, way faster.

00:35:44 ◼   ► So that's pretty cool.

00:35:45 ◼   ► I was really impressed with what they've done

00:35:47 ◼   ► with Migration Assistant.

00:35:48 ◼   ► Of course, it successfully did the job,

00:35:50 ◼   ► but every step of the way, it told me all the different ways

00:35:53 ◼   ► that I could let it do what it was doing.

00:35:54 ◼   ► And even mid-flight, I could buy something and plug it in

00:35:57 ◼   ► and let it finish the sort of second half

00:35:58 ◼   ► of the migration much faster.

00:36:00 ◼   ► And you know, the migration worked, right?

00:36:03 ◼   ► So I booted up and started setting up all the things,

00:36:06 ◼   ► deleting all the Intel only apps,

00:36:07 ◼   ► making sure I had M1 versions of everything,

00:36:10 ◼   ► transferring licenses to software from the iMac to that one,

00:36:14 ◼   ► doing all the stuff,

00:36:16 ◼   ► transferring my backblaze license over to that thing,

00:36:18 ◼   ► inheriting backup state,

00:36:20 ◼   ► got everything all ready to go.

00:36:22 ◼   ► And part of the reason why I was deciding to do this

00:36:25 ◼   ► migration and set up this thing,

00:36:26 ◼   ► aside from just checking that the Mac Studio

00:36:28 ◼   ► was what I expected and that it worked,

00:36:29 ◼   ► was that I got a surprise email from Apple that said,

00:36:31 ◼   ► "Hey, guess what?

00:36:32 ◼   ► Remember we said June 22nd?

00:36:34 ◼   ► Well, actually it's coming June 1st.

00:36:36 ◼   ► - Oh, that's today.

00:36:37 ◼   ► - It was very exciting, yes.

00:36:38 ◼   ► So it did come today and I did set it up.

00:36:40 ◼   ► - Oh, wow.

00:36:41 ◼   ► - And so now I've got the whole system all configured.

00:36:44 ◼   ► So, you know, I had the MacStudio on the desk next

00:36:47 ◼   ► to the 4K and that was also for me to hear the fan noise.

00:36:50 ◼   ► And the fan noise was amply represented on YouTube.

00:36:53 ◼   ► It sounds in person like it does in those YouTube videos.

00:36:56 ◼   ► It is a thing that you can hear.

00:36:58 ◼   ► Mine did not have any of the sort of high-pitched,

00:37:02 ◼   ► terrible noises.

00:37:03 ◼   ► It was just more of the (imitates noise)

00:37:04 ◼   ► you know, that you hear in the videos.

00:37:06 ◼   ► And it was very quiet.

00:37:07 ◼   ► My wife did not care about it at all.

00:37:09 ◼   ► She was like, "I don't care about noises as much as you do.

00:37:12 ◼   ► I don't, whatever, I don't care."

00:37:14 ◼   ► - Does anybody?

00:37:15 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:37:15 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:37:17 ◼   ► I did mess with the fan speed things.

00:37:18 ◼   ► I have several fan control apps,

00:37:20 ◼   ► some of which I already own from messing with fans

00:37:22 ◼   ► on my Mac Pro and some of which I bought

00:37:24 ◼   ► or tried trials of just to mess with this.

00:37:27 ◼   ► And just my Mac studio, just like everyone else's,

00:37:29 ◼   ► idling at like 1300 RPM, the minimum speed is 1100.

00:37:32 ◼   ► So the first thing I did was said,

00:37:33 ◼   ► "How quiet are the fans at 1100?"

00:37:36 ◼   ► 'Cause you just manually turn them to 1100,

00:37:37 ◼   ► or also on one of my apps,

00:37:38 ◼   ► you can just set a bunch of rules that says,

00:37:40 ◼   ► if this temperature sensor is,

00:37:43 ◼   ► or the average of these temperature sensors

00:37:45 ◼   ► is below this value, put the fans at this speed,

00:37:48 ◼   ► and make a bunch of,

00:37:49 ◼   ► make this and make your own fan curve, right?

00:37:51 ◼   ► And so I did that, and I made a curve

00:37:53 ◼   ► such that they dropped down to 1100

00:37:55 ◼   ► when the thing is idle.

00:37:56 ◼   ► And you know, this could be manufacturing variability.

00:38:01 ◼   ► Again, we mentioned that multiple Mac studios

00:38:04 ◼   ► can have different power supplies

00:38:06 ◼   ► made by different companies, but on my Mac studio,

00:38:09 ◼   ► if this was the only Mac studio I had ever seen,

00:38:11 ◼   ► my theory would be they make the fans idle at 1300

00:38:15 ◼   ► because at 1100, whatever way the electrical power

00:38:20 ◼   ► is fed to the fans at 1100,

00:38:23 ◼   ► it adds an extra little seasoning

00:38:26 ◼   ► of high-pitched wine to the fan.

00:38:29 ◼   ► So yes, the fans get quieter,

00:38:31 ◼   ► that like, you can hear them spin down, they get quieter,

00:38:34 ◼   ► but there's this high-pitched wine that comes in,

00:38:37 ◼   ► it's almost like the electrical system

00:38:40 ◼   ► does not want to feed electricity,

00:38:43 ◼   ► whatever it needs, the amperage, the volts, whatever,

00:38:46 ◼   ► to make them go at 1,100 RPM,

00:38:48 ◼   ► that introduces a high-pitched wine.

00:38:49 ◼   ► When they go up to 13, no more wine.

00:38:52 ◼   ► Is the wine from the fans moving that slowly?

00:38:54 ◼   ► Is the wine from the electronics in the fan?

00:38:55 ◼   ► Is the wine from the power supply?

00:38:56 ◼   ► I don't know, but my particular Mac Studio at 1100

00:39:00 ◼   ► sounds worse than at 1300

00:39:03 ◼   ► because that high-pitched wine comes in.

00:39:04 ◼   ► - That's so weird.

00:39:06 ◼   ► The more we hear about the fan system on the Mac Studio,

00:39:10 ◼   ► the more of like a weird miss it seems to be

00:39:14 ◼   ► because when you look at the other M1 Macs

00:39:18 ◼   ► and M1 Pro products, like all the laptops and everything,

00:39:21 ◼   ► It just seems like they didn't need that level of noise

00:39:25 ◼   ► for that enclosure and that chip.

00:39:27 ◼   ► And I don't know what happened there,

00:39:30 ◼   ► but it really seemed like an odd miss for them.

00:39:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, and again, just like the people on YouTube,

00:39:36 ◼   ► I don't think I ever saw a temperature over 35 Celsius,

00:39:39 ◼   ► which I have no idea what that is in real temperature,

00:39:41 ◼   ► but all I know is that it's low.

00:39:43 ◼   ► It's low for the insides of a computer.

00:39:44 ◼   ► Like, the highest temperature sensor was 35 Celsius.

00:39:48 ◼   ► And not that I was doing anything particularly big with it,

00:39:50 ◼   ► although I was like running, downloading all my photos

00:39:53 ◼   ► from iCloud and running a backblaze backup,

00:39:55 ◼   ► but it's still like, the fans never,

00:39:58 ◼   ► just like everyone else on YouTube,

00:39:59 ◼   ► they idle at 1300 RPM and they just stay

00:40:01 ◼   ► around 1300 RPM, just forever, right?

00:40:04 ◼   ► It does not get hot, so it's not as if like,

00:40:06 ◼   ► oh, this machine is so hot, they painted themselves

00:40:08 ◼   ► into a thermal, just, the machine does not get hot

00:40:10 ◼   ► doing normal things at all, and yet the fans,

00:40:13 ◼   ► there they are at 1300 RPM doing their thing,

00:40:15 ◼   ► and like I said, 1100 on my particular Mac Studio is worse.

00:40:19 ◼   ► Some people have, I've heard videos on YouTube

00:40:21 ◼   ► of like, listen to the high pitch wine.

00:40:23 ◼   ► But it wasn't when they artificially dropped

00:40:25 ◼   ► the fan speed down, it was just at other speeds

00:40:27 ◼   ► it was doing that wine.

00:40:27 ◼   ► So anyway, I decided having it on a desk

00:40:31 ◼   ► for like a day doing the migration

00:40:32 ◼   ► and then a day setting up stuff.

00:40:34 ◼   ► I'm like, I think I'm gonna start this thing underneath.

00:40:37 ◼   ► Like I've got this 3D printed purchased on Etsy cage

00:40:42 ◼   ► for the Mac studio that I talked about.

00:40:44 ◼   ► I did put a link to it in last week's show notes.

00:40:46 ◼   ► So if you were looking for it,

00:40:47 ◼   ► just look for a last week show notes

00:40:48 ◼   ► link to this Etsy thing. It exactly fits the Mac Studio. It's meant to mount a Mac Studio

00:40:54 ◼   ► to the underside of a desk. So I figured, I'm not even going to bother putting this

00:40:58 ◼   ► on a desk. I know it will bother me a little bit. Let me just put it under. And also it

00:41:02 ◼   ► will free up desk space for my wife's desk. Because the iMac didn't have another box that

00:41:06 ◼   ► took up space, right? It just had the screen. So preserving that sort of appearance for

00:41:11 ◼   ► her. So I did put, well two problems with this

00:41:15 ◼   ► this 3D printed thing.

00:41:17 ◼   ► One, I've got a really big honking keyboard tray

00:41:19 ◼   ► on this desk and the space behind the keyboard tray

00:41:24 ◼   ► where I would mount the Mac Studio,

00:41:27 ◼   ► there's not enough space to do

00:41:29 ◼   ► what the little sling wants you to do.

00:41:32 ◼   ► They want you to slide the Mac Studio into it.

00:41:35 ◼   ► Like so, screw the thing to the underside of the desk.

00:41:37 ◼   ► It's like a little shelf and then slide the Mac Studio in.

00:41:41 ◼   ► I can't do that because the back of the desk

00:41:44 ◼   ► has a piece of wood across it, right?

00:41:46 ◼   ► It's got a hole for cables to go through,

00:41:47 ◼   ► but it's got a piece of wood,

00:41:48 ◼   ► so there's not enough room for me to get the Max Studio

00:41:50 ◼   ► behind the thing and slide it in.

00:41:52 ◼   ► So I have to put the Max Studio in the sling

00:41:57 ◼   ► and then screw it to the top with the Max Studio in there.

00:42:00 ◼   ► And the only way to get it off would be to unscrew it,

00:42:02 ◼   ► 'cause I can't slide it out again, right?

00:42:04 ◼   ► So I used my experience watching car rebuilding channels,

00:42:07 ◼   ► and I don't know what they would call it,

00:42:09 ◼   ► lots of lifts have another little mini thing inside them

00:42:11 ◼   ► that you can use to press up against the transmission

00:42:13 ◼   ► If you unbolt the transmission but you don't want the transmission to fall down, you have

00:42:16 ◼   ► to like, you know, use a hydraulic jack or lift to press up against it.

00:42:20 ◼   ► So I used a camera tripod with no camera on it, and I put it to the right height and then

00:42:26 ◼   ► crank the neck up and press the MacStudio up against the underside of the desk in its

00:42:31 ◼   ► little thing, after drilling pilot holes, and then, you know, screw the thing in, right?

00:42:37 ◼   ► So the first problem was I had to do that whole weird procedure to jack the thing up

00:42:40 ◼   ► and screw it in.

00:42:41 ◼   ► Second problem is after I screwed it in,

00:42:43 ◼   ► I'm looking at it and I'm going,

00:42:44 ◼   ► hmm, I know nothing about 3D printing.

00:42:47 ◼   ► I think this is like the second 3D printed object

00:42:49 ◼   ► I've ever touched in my life.

00:42:50 ◼   ► The first being a really cool dog cow that somebody made.

00:42:53 ◼   ► But I don't know how sturdy the plastic resin

00:42:59 ◼   ► crap stuff is for 3D printing.

00:43:01 ◼   ► And I'm looking at it and I'm going,

00:43:03 ◼   ► this thing is held on by six screws.

00:43:05 ◼   ► The screws are not going anywhere.

00:43:06 ◼   ► They're well screwed into the desk.

00:43:08 ◼   ► That's very secure, right?

00:43:10 ◼   ► but the plastic ears that they're screwed into,

00:43:13 ◼   ► I could totally see that it was just snapping off

00:43:15 ◼   ► from fatigue, right?

00:43:16 ◼   ► I don't know how durable that is or whatever.

00:43:18 ◼   ► So now I feel like I have to add like sort of safety wires.

00:43:23 ◼   ► I'm gonna get like the security wire

00:43:24 ◼   ► that's holding my outdoor camera.

00:43:26 ◼   ► I can get like a length of like two lengths of metal wire

00:43:28 ◼   ► to also kind of screw up to the desk,

00:43:30 ◼   ► say if the plastic cracks,

00:43:32 ◼   ► at least the thing won't fall to the ground

00:43:34 ◼   ► to land on my dog who loves to lay down there, right?

00:43:36 ◼   ► It'll be caught by the security wire.

00:43:37 ◼   ► So I do need to sort of reinforce that.

00:43:39 ◼   ► but otherwise it's bolted under the desk.

00:43:42 ◼   ► It's out of sight.

00:43:43 ◼   ► You can still get to the SD card slot

00:43:45 ◼   ► because it's sort of like you reach into the keyboard tray

00:43:47 ◼   ► and you can get to the front USB-C Thunderbolt ports

00:43:51 ◼   ► and the back ones you'd have to crawl underneath,

00:43:52 ◼   ► but I don't have anything to plug into them yet.

00:43:55 ◼   ► And it's a good thing I bolted it where I did

00:43:57 ◼   ► 'cause I put it basically right dead center in the desk

00:43:59 ◼   ► behind the keyboard tray because the monitor cable

00:44:04 ◼   ► that comes with the Apple Studio display is very short.

00:44:07 ◼   ► If I had put it to the side,

00:44:08 ◼   ► If I had put the MacStudio in the corner,

00:44:10 ◼   ► I would have screwed it in, I would have been very sad

00:44:12 ◼   ► 'cause I wouldn't have been able to connect the display

00:44:14 ◼   ► 'cause the wire is, how long,

00:44:16 ◼   ► it's like three feet or something, Casey?

00:44:17 ◼   ► You mean your own shape? - Something like that, yeah.

00:44:19 ◼   ► I wouldn't describe it as very short,

00:44:21 ◼   ► but I would by no means describe it as long,

00:44:23 ◼   ► certainly not long.

00:44:24 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, if you got it and you were saying,

00:44:26 ◼   ► "I'm gonna hook this up to my Mac Pro," no, you're not,

00:44:27 ◼   ► 'cause your Mac Pro, there's no way your Mac Pro

00:44:29 ◼   ► is that close to your monitor.

00:44:30 ◼   ► It's probably on the floor or to the side.

00:44:32 ◼   ► It's really short.

00:44:34 ◼   ► It fits fine with the thing underneath where it is

00:44:36 ◼   ► 'cause the hole that's in the back of my desk

00:44:38 ◼   ► like right in the center as well so I go from the monitor behind the desk through the hole

00:44:42 ◼   ► straight into the thing.

00:44:43 ◼   ► Same thing with the power cord.

00:44:44 ◼   ► It's nice also by the way that the power cord is dead center on the MacStudio because that

00:44:47 ◼   ► works out for me.

00:44:48 ◼   ► Sorry the cabling all worked out perfectly but I did not expect the cable to be that

00:44:53 ◼   ► short on the MacStudio.

00:44:55 ◼   ► And so yeah under the desk I can still hear it.

00:44:58 ◼   ► I know it's there but it's so quiet that you wouldn't notice.

00:45:01 ◼   ► I feel like even with under the desk it is still noisier than a 2015 5k iMac.

00:45:07 ◼   ► I'd idle because you know 2015 5k I can idle I can't hear anything 2015 5k

00:45:12 ◼   ► I'm act doing anything or loading Facebook in the tab. Yeah, that's it sounds like something, you know

00:45:16 ◼   ► Aircraft carrier or whatever airplane taking off

00:45:19 ◼   ► But no, it's it's it's pretty good where it is as long as it stays up there

00:45:23 ◼   ► I think I'll be happy with it Apple Studio display

00:45:25 ◼   ► My wife's reactor when she saw it. It's like why is that so small because she's used to the iMac with the giant bezels in

00:45:33 ◼   ► The chin right? I'm like I swear to you. It is exactly the same size

00:45:35 ◼   ► we can get out of tape measure.

00:45:37 ◼   ► It's 27 inches, but it looks much smaller.

00:45:41 ◼   ► Stand is nice.

00:45:42 ◼   ► It doesn't feel quite as gritty as the XDR stand,

00:45:47 ◼   ► but you know.

00:45:48 ◼   ► And the fact that it doesn't rotate.

00:45:50 ◼   ► - Did you get the fancy stand or did you get the--

00:45:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, I got the fancy height adjustable one.

00:45:54 ◼   ► I was trying to pick which height to put it at.

00:45:57 ◼   ► But that works well.

00:45:59 ◼   ► Let's see.

00:46:00 ◼   ► The camera, worse than I thought.

00:46:02 ◼   ► Like I saw all the videos, we talked about it on the show.

00:46:05 ◼   ► I was not prepared to how bad it would look.

00:46:08 ◼   ► I mean, part of it is what we see,

00:46:12 ◼   ► you see photographs of it on Twitter that are recompressed

00:46:14 ◼   ► and you see YouTube videos that are themselves compressed

00:46:17 ◼   ► but seeing it in real life,

00:46:19 ◼   ► boy, it just makes a complete mess out of my face.

00:46:22 ◼   ► I look like I'm in an impressionist painting.

00:46:24 ◼   ► It's just so posterized, right?

00:46:27 ◼   ► So just really bad.

00:46:30 ◼   ► It almost makes me think that,

00:46:34 ◼   ► looking up at my fancy 4K Logitech magnetic snap-on thing,

00:46:39 ◼   ► that there is a third-party opportunity

00:46:41 ◼   ► for something similar to this product,

00:46:43 ◼   ► something that magnetically attaches

00:46:44 ◼   ► to the top of the studio display

00:46:46 ◼   ► that has a tiny little USB-C cord

00:46:48 ◼   ► that's just long enough to reach down

00:46:49 ◼   ► into one of the studio display's USB-C ports,

00:46:52 ◼   ► I would probably buy that product

00:46:53 ◼   ► 'cause boy, this camera is stinky.

00:46:55 ◼   ► I mean, I was warned, but anyway, we'll just ignore it.

00:47:00 ◼   ► Speakers sound good, monitor itself looks good.

00:47:02 ◼   ► Although I do notice it's kind of weird

00:47:04 ◼   ► that like Casey you're looking at the monitor right now.

00:47:06 ◼   ► So tell me if you noticed this.

00:47:08 ◼   ► From my normal sitting position,

00:47:10 ◼   ► if I look at the bottom edge of the monitor,

00:47:12 ◼   ► past where the pixels end,

00:47:13 ◼   ► there's like a little, you know,

00:47:14 ◼   ► the little part of black.

00:47:16 ◼   ► Do you see a little bit of the silver case,

00:47:19 ◼   ► like kind of smile at you on the edges?

00:47:23 ◼   ► - No, but it's, I do have the light on, throwback.

00:47:28 ◼   ► I am in my sleepy shirt, but the light is on.

00:47:31 ◼   ► And even with my phone's flat, I don't know,

00:47:33 ◼   ► but my eyes are garbage.

00:47:34 ◼   ► And I can't say I've ever noticed that now.

00:47:36 ◼   ► Not to say you're wrong, I just, I have never noticed.

00:47:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's almost like you can see a hint

00:47:42 ◼   ► of the silver surround, like there's a tiny,

00:47:45 ◼   ► tiny silver rim around the whole display.

00:47:47 ◼   ► Rather than, I look at the XDR,

00:47:49 ◼   ► the black sort of covers everything

00:47:50 ◼   ► and you can't see any of the silver

00:47:51 ◼   ► from normal viewing angles, but the studio display,

00:47:53 ◼   ► you can see a little sliver of the silver,

00:47:56 ◼   ► kind of around the whole display,

00:47:57 ◼   ► but you mostly notice it on the bottom

00:47:59 ◼   ► because of the angle that the thing is held.

00:48:00 ◼   ► I don't know, I'll look at it more.

00:48:02 ◼   ► It's not distracting or anything,

00:48:04 ◼   ► it's just something I noticed that is different

00:48:06 ◼   ► than the XDR.

00:48:07 ◼   ► Let's see what else about the Studio,

00:48:10 ◼   ► Mac Studio setup.

00:48:11 ◼   ► I'm annoyed by photos because, you know,

00:48:15 ◼   ► I didn't bother copying my photo library.

00:48:17 ◼   ► I'm like, oh, I call photos, I'll just re-download it all.

00:48:19 ◼   ► So I hook up the library, make it the system library,

00:48:21 ◼   ► I can put it on the main SSD now 'cause it's nice and big.

00:48:24 ◼   ► I set it to download photos and it says,

00:48:25 ◼   ► "Downloading 145,000 photos," right?

00:48:29 ◼   ► And that's what it says for the next day or two.

00:48:32 ◼   ► Downloading, the number never changes.

00:48:35 ◼   ► There's no indication of progress,

00:48:36 ◼   ► no indication that it is making any progress.

00:48:39 ◼   ► There I am, an activity monitor,

00:48:40 ◼   ► looking at the network packets going by,

00:48:43 ◼   ► saying, is it doing anything?

00:48:44 ◼   ► Is it downloading anything?

00:48:45 ◼   ► Is something happening?

00:48:46 ◼   ► This is ever gonna finish?

00:48:47 ◼   ► So I don't know, I'll let you know in a week or two.

00:48:49 ◼   ► I mean, it's like, you know,

00:48:51 ◼   ► it's like a terabyte of photos,

00:48:52 ◼   ► so it's not gonna happen overnight.

00:48:54 ◼   ► But I wish I knew if it was working at all,

00:48:57 ◼   ► And if it was, I wish I could make it go faster,

00:48:59 ◼   ► more terrible interface from photos.

00:49:03 ◼   ► But yeah, other than that, everything seems to work well.

00:49:05 ◼   ► Sorry, my wife's concerned.

00:49:06 ◼   ► She, you know, went away and came back

00:49:07 ◼   ► and she has a different looking computer,

00:49:09 ◼   ► but all her same stuff is on it.

00:49:11 ◼   ► And it's a million times faster than it was,

00:49:13 ◼   ► but she doesn't care about that for the most part.

00:49:14 ◼   ► I guess it's quieter now because she can open more tabs

00:49:17 ◼   ► on sites that have terrible ads

00:49:19 ◼   ► that used to cause her 5K iMacs fans to spin up

00:49:22 ◼   ► until the thing looked like it was gonna take off

00:49:23 ◼   ► from the desk.

00:49:24 ◼   ► And now it will just quietly sit there

00:49:26 ◼   ► grinding the CPU with those terrible ads,

00:49:29 ◼   ► but other than that, I give it a,

00:49:32 ◼   ► I mean, my hopes are that this is gonna be her computer

00:49:36 ◼   ► for the next, you know, seven or eight years, 10 years,

00:49:39 ◼   ► you know, 2015 iMac lasted her into 2022,

00:49:42 ◼   ► so that's a pretty good run.

00:49:43 ◼   ► I hope this will last just as long,

00:49:44 ◼   ► 'cause I don't see why it shouldn't.

00:49:46 ◼   ► She's happy with this setup.

00:49:47 ◼   ► She likes a keyboard and a mouse.

00:49:48 ◼   ► She likes a 27-inch 5K monitor

00:49:50 ◼   ► with speakers built in and a camera.

00:49:53 ◼   ► She doesn't care that much about the camera being crappy,

00:49:54 ◼   ► but it is.

00:49:56 ◼   ► As long as that little thing stuck to the underside of the desk doesn't get any noisier

00:49:59 ◼   ► over time and stays stuck to the underside of the desk, I think it'll be fine.

00:50:03 ◼   ► I've got plenty of room to grow.

00:50:04 ◼   ► I haven't even filled any of the Thunderbolt ports.

00:50:08 ◼   ► She's got a big USB hub on the desk and she's got the USB-C/Thunderbolt ports all waiting

00:50:14 ◼   ► to receive fancier backup disks and all sorts of other stuff.

00:50:19 ◼   ► Thumbs up so far.

00:50:20 ◼   ► I am glad that both of you are happy.

00:50:24 ◼   ► I can't believe that you're not complaining about the fan

00:50:27 ◼   ► being in the same room that you occupy.

00:50:29 ◼   ► - Well, Marco can tell me if he hears it on the microphone.

00:50:31 ◼   ► I mean, I can't, with my headphones on,

00:50:32 ◼   ► I can hear my Mac Pro, which is a few feet away from me,

00:50:35 ◼   ► but I can't hear with my headphones on

00:50:37 ◼   ► the thing way back there.

00:50:40 ◼   ► When I sit in front of her computer, I can hear it,

00:50:43 ◼   ► but just barely.

00:50:45 ◼   ► - No, I mean, and I wouldn't expect it to be a problem

00:50:47 ◼   ► for a podcast, and it would have to be a pretty loud fan

00:50:49 ◼   ► for that that I think you would have other problems with.

00:50:51 ◼   ► But no, I'm just, I'm surprised, like,

00:50:54 ◼   ► Again, it seems odd to me that both the Mac Studio

00:50:57 ◼   ► and the Studio Display both have weird,

00:51:00 ◼   ► seemingly unnecessary flaws.

00:51:03 ◼   ► The Studio Display has its really terrible camera

00:51:05 ◼   ► that somehow happened, and the Mac Studio

00:51:08 ◼   ► has this really odd fan noise situation

00:51:11 ◼   ► that seems unnecessary.

00:51:13 ◼   ► I'm just surprised at both of these products

00:51:16 ◼   ► that we were very excited about when they were announced

00:51:19 ◼   ► because spec-wise they seem great

00:51:21 ◼   ► and they fill important roles in the lineup.

00:51:23 ◼   ► And when you look at Apple's other recent launches,

00:51:26 ◼   ► they've been basically flawless.

00:51:29 ◼   ► You know, the MacBook Pros, basically flawless.

00:51:32 ◼   ► Before that, the M1 series, the M1 iMac,

00:51:34 ◼   ► the M1 MacBook Air, and the 13 inch weird MacBook Pro

00:51:38 ◼   ► that shouldn't quite be a pro,

00:51:40 ◼   ► the little Mac Mini with the M1,

00:51:42 ◼   ► all of those products, basically perfect.

00:51:45 ◼   ► So it's odd to have these two sort of flagship products

00:51:50 ◼   ► have these really weird downsides that seem totally avoidable.

00:51:56 ◼   ► But I don't know.

00:51:57 ◼   ► I don't know what happened there, but hopefully we'll see with the Mac Pro, when that ever

00:52:01 ◼   ► comes we'll kind of see how the story rounds itself out.

00:52:05 ◼   ► I also think we are still kind of missing the M1 Pro based Mac Mini, which seems like

00:52:12 ◼   ► it should exist and yet doesn't.

00:52:15 ◼   ► Maybe that would answer some of the questions and close some of these gaps, I don't know.

00:52:18 ◼   ► But we'll see how the story closes out.

00:52:21 ◼   ► But this seems like an odd place for it to be in right now.

00:52:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, like if the Mac Studio was as quiet

00:52:27 ◼   ► as the M1 Mac Mini, and obviously there's just

00:52:29 ◼   ► more stuff in there.

00:52:30 ◼   ► If you compare the size of the M1s and the M1 Mac Mini,

00:52:32 ◼   ► it's so much smaller than the Pro or the Ultra

00:52:36 ◼   ► that's in this thing, so I get it.

00:52:37 ◼   ► But if it was that quiet, I would have a lot more fondness

00:52:41 ◼   ► for its very small form factor.

00:52:43 ◼   ► And as it stands now, it's great that it's small

00:52:46 ◼   ► so I can shove it underneath my desk.

00:52:48 ◼   ► But if it was 50% bigger, but also silent,

00:52:52 ◼   ► I would just put it on the desk.

00:52:53 ◼   ► So it's kind of like the only reason I'm glad

00:52:55 ◼   ► that this is small and I can smuggle it on a desk

00:52:57 ◼   ► is because I wanna get that fan

00:52:59 ◼   ► as far away from me as possible.

00:53:00 ◼   ► But yeah, it's not clear to me what,

00:53:04 ◼   ► that they needed this much sort of heat removal stuff

00:53:07 ◼   ► and that they had to wedge it in there

00:53:09 ◼   ► with two small diameter high speed fans

00:53:11 ◼   ► rather than one much more lazy large diameter fan.

00:53:13 ◼   ► And if they had just done it like a chimney with cold air

00:53:15 ◼   ► in the bottom, hot air on the top of the large diameter fan

00:53:18 ◼   ► instead, like they could have made a lot of different choices, but it seemed like some

00:53:21 ◼   ► stuff was sacrificed on the altar of making it look like a big Mac Mini, which is air

00:53:25 ◼   ► in the bottom, hot air at the bottom, hot air at the back.

00:53:28 ◼   ► Yeah, but like what, like you can get that exact same chip, not the ultra I know, but

00:53:32 ◼   ► like you can get, you can get the Macs that exact same chip in the 13 inch MacBook Pro

00:53:36 ◼   ► and it's silent. Like I, it's so, that's why, that's why it's so odd to me. But you know,

00:53:42 ◼   ► the reality is I'm, I'm not, you know, very selfishly, I'm not upset too much about this

00:53:47 ◼   ► because I don't want that computer now.

00:53:51 ◼   ► Maybe it is the power supply, as we were talking about before.

00:53:54 ◼   ► There's DC voltage coming from the batteries inside of MacBook Pro, right?

00:53:57 ◼   ► So there's no power supply circuitry to turn AC into DC and all that stuff?

00:54:01 ◼   ► Maybe is that the big difference?

00:54:03 ◼   ► Is it just the giant analog circuit board and the associated analog noise and additional

00:54:07 ◼   ► heat?

00:54:08 ◼   ► Well, but my MacBook Pro is powered by a very small fanless silent little white power brick

00:54:16 ◼   ► too. So like, that doesn't seem to be the only difference. Yeah,

00:54:19 ◼   ► it was but it's external like that, that can radiate heat out

00:54:22 ◼   ► into the room and the fireworks may not be sound when I was

00:54:25 ◼   ► hooking stuff up. I was hooking up a USB hub just to have I have

00:54:28 ◼   ► old like USB three hub to just you know, put lightning cables

00:54:30 ◼   ► and crap on so it's on the desk right. And I was gonna hook that

00:54:33 ◼   ► up and I took took my wife's one off my god this one looks kind

00:54:36 ◼   ► of cruddy and dusty. Let me go get a newer one that I had in

00:54:39 ◼   ► the attic. So I go up the attic and bring down the newer one.

00:54:41 ◼   ► And I'm like, Oh, I don't need to you know, I should get I

00:54:44 ◼   ► I actually use all new stuff.

00:54:45 ◼   ► So I took out the old one entirely,

00:54:47 ◼   ► took out the cable, the USB hub,

00:54:49 ◼   ► and of course the external brick thing

00:54:50 ◼   ► that they all come with, right?

00:54:52 ◼   ► And I get the brand new stuff and I hook it all up

00:54:54 ◼   ► and I'm crawling on a desk, connecting it together,

00:54:56 ◼   ► and I plug in the brick into the UPS

00:55:01 ◼   ► 'cause the USB from the UPS also runs through this,

00:55:05 ◼   ► so I don't want it to go out when power goes out

00:55:07 ◼   ► because that's how the Mac knows to shut down.

00:55:09 ◼   ► Anyway, and when I did that,

00:55:11 ◼   ► I started to hear this buzzing, ticking noise

00:55:15 ◼   ► from inside the power brick,

00:55:18 ◼   ► which I just recognized as analog electronic noise.

00:55:20 ◼   ► Like some coil of wire in there is doing something

00:55:25 ◼   ► or whatever, and I unplug it from the UPS,

00:55:29 ◼   ► and it's still making the noise,

00:55:30 ◼   ► 'cause some capacitor in there was slowly discharging

00:55:32 ◼   ► or whatever, I can't do it, hold this to your ear.

00:55:34 ◼   ► I'm like, hey, hold the brick.

00:55:35 ◼   ► It was making noise.

00:55:36 ◼   ► So even that little external power brick,

00:55:38 ◼   ► you're like, oh, I have this white little power brick

00:55:40 ◼   ► or whatever, it's possible to screw that up too

00:55:42 ◼   ► if you just have a cheap type power brick.

00:55:44 ◼   ► Anything can make, I hate analog electronics.

00:55:46 ◼   ► I wish everything was digital.

00:55:47 ◼   ► I know it's not the world we live in, right?

00:55:48 ◼   ► But you need analog electronics

00:55:50 ◼   ► to power the digital things,

00:55:51 ◼   ► but things like a power brick, they can have problems too.

00:55:55 ◼   ► And if that little ticking, annoying thing

00:55:57 ◼   ► was inside a computer, it would just drive you mad

00:56:00 ◼   ► because it's like, what is that noise?

00:56:01 ◼   ► What is that doing that?

00:56:02 ◼   ► Anyway, the short version is I just swapped back

00:56:06 ◼   ► for the previous power brick,

00:56:08 ◼   ► was exactly the same for the previous USB hub,

00:56:10 ◼   ► but this one didn't make any noise when I plugged it in.

00:56:12 ◼   ► So analog electronics, man, it's just nothing but trouble.

00:56:16 ◼   ► - Well, so far, desktop laptop seems to be winning again.

00:56:21 ◼   ► - Well, if your white power brick was making noise,

00:56:24 ◼   ► you probably wouldn't hear it when it's on the floor.

00:56:25 ◼   ► But I was crawling around with my ear

00:56:27 ◼   ► practically touching the thing.

00:56:28 ◼   ► I was like, no, it doesn't sound healthy to me.

00:56:30 ◼   ► I need to get the one that doesn't make this noise.

00:56:32 ◼   ► - Well, and also another benefit to the laptop lifestyle

00:56:34 ◼   ► is things are more modular.

00:56:36 ◼   ► If that white power brick starts making noise,

00:56:38 ◼   ► I can just replace it.

00:56:40 ◼   ► You know, you can't quite easily do that

00:56:42 ◼   ► with the power supply inside your desktop.

00:56:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's what Apple cares for.

00:56:46 ◼   ► Hopefully I don't have to use it.

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00:58:43 ◼   ► - Now we have finally gotten to the time

00:58:48 ◼   ► that we should talk WWDC.

00:58:49 ◼   ► And it is this coming Monday as we record.

00:58:52 ◼   ► It is just a few days away as we record on Wednesday night.

00:58:55 ◼   ► It is this coming Monday.

00:58:56 ◼   ► We should talk about our hopes, our predictions.

00:59:00 ◼   ► And I had a lead off question

00:59:02 ◼   ► that I'd like to ask both of you,

00:59:03 ◼   ► and let's start with Marco.

00:59:05 ◼   ► Why is it in person at all this year?

00:59:08 ◼   ► Why is this year different from other years?

00:59:10 ◼   ► Is it for the big splash reveal,

00:59:12 ◼   ► for like a Mac Pro, God help me,

00:59:14 ◼   ► or AR glasses, or do they just wanna dip

00:59:16 ◼   ► their toe in the water?

00:59:17 ◼   ► Like what do you think the reason is for in person?

00:59:20 ◼   ► - I think Apple likes in person events a lot.

00:59:23 ◼   ► I think they do the remote events during COVID

00:59:27 ◼   ► because they had to.

00:59:29 ◼   ► And I think they want to get back

00:59:31 ◼   ► to having in-person events for press and things like NWBC

00:59:35 ◼   ► as soon as they can, reasonably and responsibly.

00:59:37 ◼   ► And it's certainly up for debate whether this

00:59:40 ◼   ► counts as that time or not.

00:59:42 ◼   ► But setting that aside, I think they love the in-person events.

00:59:46 ◼   ► In-person events, when you have a big launch like this,

00:59:50 ◼   ► or whether it's something super significant,

00:59:53 ◼   ► like a new platform, like an AR headset,

00:59:55 ◼   ► or whether it's just the year of software updates,

00:59:57 ◼   ► That's also a big deal to them and to us.

01:00:02 ◼   ► And so I don't think it needs to be a major

01:00:06 ◼   ► hardware or platform release year

01:00:08 ◼   ► for them to want an in-person event

01:00:10 ◼   ► and for an in-person event to be really cool and fun.

01:00:12 ◼   ► I think it's interesting that we have this kind of hybrid

01:00:15 ◼   ► where the keynote is almost certainly pre-recorded

01:00:19 ◼   ► and so the keynote watching is going to be

01:00:22 ◼   ► basically a movie watching.

01:00:25 ◼   ► and they projected on a screen

01:00:26 ◼   ► and were just watching a movie.

01:00:28 ◼   ► That's kind of interesting.

01:00:29 ◼   ► But I do think they want to have in-person events.

01:00:31 ◼   ► I also think the more little bits and pieces we pick up

01:00:35 ◼   ► and they kind of trickle out,

01:00:38 ◼   ► the more it seems like this is also the launch party

01:00:41 ◼   ► for the developer center.

01:00:43 ◼   ► And they clearly want to show that off

01:00:46 ◼   ► and to officially open it up

01:00:47 ◼   ► and officially announce what it is,

01:00:50 ◼   ► what it's supposed to do long-term.

01:00:53 ◼   ► And they wanna have a big party to open up

01:00:55 ◼   ► their new developer center.

01:00:57 ◼   ► I think that's what this is.

01:00:59 ◼   ► And from the little bits and pieces we've heard

01:01:00 ◼   ► where it seems like it's going to be kind of a permanent

01:01:02 ◼   ► home for developer relations and some kind of labs

01:01:06 ◼   ► sort of things, and maybe they could bring in developers

01:01:10 ◼   ► at certain times for access to certain early hardware,

01:01:13 ◼   ► early software, whatever the case may be,

01:01:15 ◼   ► it seems like this is going to be a big thing

01:01:17 ◼   ► for them going forward and they want to unveil this all

01:01:21 ◼   ► to us at one big party, here's the developer center,

01:01:25 ◼   ► enjoy, here's what it's for.

01:01:26 ◼   ► So I think all that kind of goes into play

01:01:28 ◼   ► for this particular year's event.

01:01:30 ◼   ► That being said, it wouldn't surprise me

01:01:32 ◼   ► if this is also a test balloon of sorts

01:01:36 ◼   ► to see if all future WWDCs might be done this way.

01:01:41 ◼   ► Because we've talked at length all the time

01:01:43 ◼   ► about all the different downsides

01:01:46 ◼   ► of trying to wedge this conference into a city

01:01:49 ◼   ► with a large convention center

01:01:51 ◼   ► and getting everyone into all the hotels

01:01:53 ◼   ► and everything's so expensive for everyone.

01:01:55 ◼   ► And even if you fit five or 6,000 people

01:01:58 ◼   ► in the convention center,

01:01:59 ◼   ► you still are excluding thousands of other people

01:02:01 ◼   ► who want to come, but either can't afford to

01:02:05 ◼   ► or can't get a ticket or can't get there,

01:02:08 ◼   ► whatever the case may be.

01:02:10 ◼   ► And so I think it's clear over the last,

01:02:13 ◼   ► even before COVID, over the last few years

01:02:15 ◼   ► that WBC probably should change

01:02:18 ◼   ► in a way to make it even more and more inclusive

01:02:20 ◼   ► and more and more accessible to more people.

01:02:22 ◼   ► And they certainly did their best

01:02:24 ◼   ► with an in-person conference,

01:02:25 ◼   ► with having live stream sessions

01:02:27 ◼   ► and all the recordings going up super fast

01:02:29 ◼   ► and all the transcripts and all that stuff.

01:02:30 ◼   ► You know, they really amped a lot of that up

01:02:32 ◼   ► over those last few years of being in person,

01:02:34 ◼   ► but none of that compared to what they were able to do

01:02:37 ◼   ► since COVID with having it be full-time remote

01:02:39 ◼   ► with just hugely more accessible content

01:02:43 ◼   ► because it had to be.

01:02:44 ◼   ► Finally making labs accessible remotely,

01:02:47 ◼   ► you know, all that stuff that they added.

01:02:49 ◼   ► And I think this might be their vision

01:02:51 ◼   ► of how it goes forward.

01:02:52 ◼   ► Now that we can have in-person events,

01:02:55 ◼   ► and now that they have this new developer center

01:02:56 ◼   ► that seems to probably have a capacity in the hundreds

01:03:01 ◼   ► rather than in the thousands, at most, possibly, you know,

01:03:04 ◼   ► I would bet it's in the low hundreds.

01:03:07 ◼   ► But maybe this is part of their vision

01:03:10 ◼   ► of like rather than having that big event,

01:03:12 ◼   ► they pretty much produce the whole conference

01:03:14 ◼   ► as if it's remote every time,

01:03:17 ◼   ► and it's mostly remote,

01:03:18 ◼   ► but it has this small in-person component

01:03:21 ◼   ► that is partly for press

01:03:23 ◼   ► and partly for certain groups of developers

01:03:25 ◼   ► they wanna have out there,

01:03:27 ◼   ► students maybe, scholarship winners,

01:03:29 ◼   ► certain feature developers,

01:03:31 ◼   ► certain newcomers, things like that.

01:03:33 ◼   ► So that's I think why they're doing it,

01:03:35 ◼   ► and I think this is probably going to be the path forward.

01:03:39 ◼   ► It would greatly surprise me

01:03:41 ◼   ► if we ever had another WWDC in San Jose or San Francisco.

01:03:46 ◼   ► It reminds me a little bit of press junkets for car reviews.

01:03:50 ◼   ► Right, so, WWDC is run, you know,

01:03:54 ◼   ► it's a developer conference,

01:03:55 ◼   ► so Apple has a developer relations department

01:03:58 ◼   ► or whatever they call it,

01:03:59 ◼   ► it's people's job it is to interface with developers.

01:04:02 ◼   ► And there's a lot of overlap between that,

01:04:04 ◼   ► like developer relations and marketing.

01:04:07 ◼   ► You don't wanna call it marketing,

01:04:09 ◼   ► but it is a form of marketing,

01:04:10 ◼   ► 'cause you want people to develop for your platform,

01:04:12 ◼   ► you want to convince them to develop for your platform,

01:04:15 ◼   ► you want to show them how cool your platform is,

01:04:17 ◼   ► how successful they can be on your platform,

01:04:18 ◼   ► you want to support them,

01:04:19 ◼   ► that's what developer relations is.

01:04:20 ◼   ► So it is very much a marketing type of position.

01:04:24 ◼   ► And when you're doing any kind of marketing,

01:04:25 ◼   ► like a car company that wants you to tell you about the,

01:04:28 ◼   ► here's the new Corvette or whatever,

01:04:29 ◼   ► having people in person is really important

01:04:32 ◼   ► because that's just the way people work.

01:04:34 ◼   ► You'll bring them to a beautiful place,

01:04:37 ◼   ► you'll show them your car,

01:04:38 ◼   ► you'll let a famous F1 driver drive them around a track

01:04:42 ◼   ► in your car, you'll let them run a drag strip,

01:04:44 ◼   ► You'll do all this stuff because you want to give

01:04:47 ◼   ► these human being journalists, press, whatever,

01:04:50 ◼   ► a positive experience and for them to associate

01:04:53 ◼   ► that positive experience with your car

01:04:55 ◼   ► and then hopefully go back and write something nice

01:04:57 ◼   ► about your car.

01:04:58 ◼   ► Now, it's not like any decent car journalist is gonna say,

01:05:00 ◼   ► well, they brought me to a beautiful place in Italy,

01:05:02 ◼   ► therefore I'm gonna say this car is great, right?

01:05:04 ◼   ► But humans being humans, there is some small amount

01:05:09 ◼   ► of the positive experience you had that will influence,

01:05:12 ◼   ► even if unconsciously, what you write about it.

01:05:14 ◼   ► And so it is smart if you're doing something

01:05:17 ◼   ► related to marketing to get people in person.

01:05:20 ◼   ► It is easier to impress upon them

01:05:24 ◼   ► that your product is good.

01:05:26 ◼   ► You can explain to them in person,

01:05:27 ◼   ► you can answer their questions there,

01:05:28 ◼   ► and you can give them a positive experience.

01:05:31 ◼   ► Way easier to do that in person than remote, right?

01:05:34 ◼   ► So I think anyone involved in any marketing position

01:05:37 ◼   ► for any product in any company always wants to get,

01:05:40 ◼   ► particularly the press, but even also just in this case,

01:05:43 ◼   ► developers, like actual people, get them to where

01:05:46 ◼   ► you can control their experience.

01:05:48 ◼   ► Get them to come to your beautiful campus

01:05:50 ◼   ► so that you can plan a day for them.

01:05:52 ◼   ► Look at that menu we just read.

01:05:53 ◼   ► Look at all the fun activities.

01:05:54 ◼   ► They're gonna have you to tour the fitness center.

01:05:55 ◼   ► Everyone's gonna be nice and it's just gonna be sunny

01:05:57 ◼   ► and beautiful 'cause it's California, right?

01:05:59 ◼   ► That is super important.

01:06:01 ◼   ► That is never gonna go away.

01:06:03 ◼   ► And so I feel like, you know, you would say,

01:06:06 ◼   ► oh, they'll just have it in person for press, right?

01:06:07 ◼   ► But for developer relations, they want, granted,

01:06:10 ◼   ► a tiny subset, but they want developers

01:06:13 ◼   ► to also have that experience.

01:06:14 ◼   ► They want someone to say, "Oh, I won the lottery

01:06:16 ◼   ► "for WWC to come in person, and I had such a great time,

01:06:20 ◼   ► "and I met some fun people, and I did cool things,

01:06:22 ◼   ► "and I learned a lot, and I got to eat good food."

01:06:25 ◼   ► That will make them feel good about developing

01:06:27 ◼   ► for the Apple platforms, or make them feel better

01:06:30 ◼   ► than they did before, make them feel better

01:06:32 ◼   ► than the people who just had to watch it sitting at home.

01:06:34 ◼   ► And you ramp that all up, it's like,

01:06:38 ◼   ► well, that's why WWC kept getting bigger.

01:06:40 ◼   ► They made it as big as they possibly could

01:06:42 ◼   ► without turning it into like Oracle World or whatever.

01:06:44 ◼   ► They didn't make it 20,000 people,

01:06:46 ◼   ► but they didn't keep it at like one or 200.

01:06:49 ◼   ► They could have, they went all the way up to like what,

01:06:50 ◼   ► 5,500 or whatever was kind of where WWC maxed out.

01:06:54 ◼   ► And they didn't wanna make it any bigger than that.

01:06:55 ◼   ► They could have made it bigger.

01:06:56 ◼   ► They could afford to make it bigger.

01:06:57 ◼   ► They could have gone to bigger venues,

01:06:59 ◼   ► but they wanted to get as many developers

01:07:01 ◼   ► as there as possible

01:07:01 ◼   ► without totally destroying the conference

01:07:03 ◼   ► because every developer that is there

01:07:05 ◼   ► that still has a good time,

01:07:06 ◼   ► if they can provide a good experience to those developers,

01:07:08 ◼   ► It's a developer relations.

01:07:10 ◼   ► They want developers to feel good about the Apple platform.

01:07:13 ◼   ► So I don't think it's just gonna be press in person.

01:07:15 ◼   ► Yes, of course they want the press to be in person

01:07:17 ◼   ► and they have a whole separate experience for them.

01:07:19 ◼   ► They also want some developers to be in person

01:07:22 ◼   ► and they want it to feel special for them.

01:07:24 ◼   ► And I feel like a, obviously a smaller in-person presence,

01:07:27 ◼   ► whether it's COVID related or whether like Margot said,

01:07:30 ◼   ► like they'll just keep it small.

01:07:31 ◼   ► You're gonna feel even more special

01:07:33 ◼   ► if you're one of like 300 versus being one of 5,500,

01:07:36 ◼   ► whatever.

01:07:37 ◼   ► So I think there will always be an in-person component

01:07:40 ◼   ► when they're able to do it.

01:07:41 ◼   ► I don't know if they're gonna ramp back up to 5,000.

01:07:43 ◼   ► It really depends on who's making the calls there.

01:07:46 ◼   ► I know there are probably people who ran WWDC for years

01:07:49 ◼   ► who, if they had their choice,

01:07:50 ◼   ► would wanna go back to 5,000 people if they could,

01:07:54 ◼   ► COVID allowing some point in the future, right?

01:07:56 ◼   ► But there might be some people who say,

01:07:59 ◼   ► let's keep it around 300

01:08:00 ◼   ► and we'll just cycle through those 300s.

01:08:02 ◼   ► I think it's tougher now

01:08:03 ◼   ► because there are so many more developers

01:08:04 ◼   ► than there used to be.

01:08:06 ◼   ► WWDC more or less maxed out, but the number of developers

01:08:09 ◼   ► on our platforms just kept increasing and increasing

01:08:11 ◼   ► with the iOS and the iPhone and everything.

01:08:13 ◼   ► It's huge now.

01:08:15 ◼   ► It's almost like the difference between 5,300 is nothing.

01:08:18 ◼   ► It's percentage-wise, it's like the third decimal point

01:08:21 ◼   ► or something, and really, to first approximation,

01:08:24 ◼   ► nobody gets to go to WWDC.

01:08:26 ◼   ► If you consider they have how many millions of developers,

01:08:29 ◼   ► or how many millions of developer account?

01:08:31 ◼   ► So it could be they keep it small and they say,

01:08:33 ◼   ► percentage-wise, we're pretty much the same percentage.

01:08:35 ◼   ► You didn't have a chance before

01:08:36 ◼   ► and you don't have a chance now,

01:08:37 ◼   ► but the people who do come,

01:08:39 ◼   ► they're gonna have a good experience.

01:08:40 ◼   ► We're gonna make sure we have a good experience.

01:08:42 ◼   ► Maybe they'll always continue to have it at Apple Park

01:08:43 ◼   ► 'cause that's an environment that they totally control

01:08:45 ◼   ► and they don't have to rent out

01:08:46 ◼   ► and they don't have to pay for box lunches.

01:08:47 ◼   ► So there's that.

01:08:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:08:50 ◼   ► - I don't know, I ask the question because I don't think,

01:08:54 ◼   ► and now we're getting into predictions and whatnot,

01:08:55 ◼   ► I don't think we're seeing any real AR glass

01:09:00 ◼   ► sort of announcement or release or anything like that.

01:09:04 ◼   ► I don't even think in all likelihood that we're going to get anything that's a strong

01:09:09 ◼   ► indicator or like teaser or anything like that.

01:09:12 ◼   ► But nevertheless, if they were to do some new thing like AR glasses, I can absolutely

01:09:21 ◼   ► see them saying, "Come hell or high water, we're going to have people in person to do

01:09:26 ◼   ► it."

01:09:27 ◼   ► Because we want to hear the cheers.

01:09:28 ◼   ► We want to hear people go nuts.

01:09:32 ◼   ► And so I don't think it's going to happen, but it is an easy thing for me to imagine

01:09:37 ◼   ► that that is why they want to do something in person.

01:09:41 ◼   ► But I don't know if that's realistic.

01:09:43 ◼   ► I don't think it is.

01:09:44 ◼   ► So what do we want?

01:09:45 ◼   ► Well, before you move on, the AR thing, right?

01:09:48 ◼   ► So if you think about hardware things that they've introduced to WWC, they tend not to

01:09:55 ◼   ► want to let the people who are attending WWC really get near them.

01:09:59 ◼   ► Think of the iMac Pro.

01:10:00 ◼   ► Think of the Mac Pro.

01:10:01 ◼   ► They were there and they were announced and you could see them, but you weren't even allowed

01:10:06 ◼   ► to touch the iMac Pro.

01:10:08 ◼   ► And the Mac Pro, they had people demoing them for you, but they didn't really want you to

01:10:11 ◼   ► use them.

01:10:12 ◼   ► So the idea that they're going to, you know, if they're going to introduce AR glasses,

01:10:15 ◼   ► it's like we want to have people there.

01:10:17 ◼   ► So if you're picturing people there like, "Oh, I'm going to wait in the line and I'm

01:10:20 ◼   ► going to strap this thing in my head and I'm going to try it out," that doesn't seem like

01:10:23 ◼   ► a very Apple thing to do.

01:10:25 ◼   ► But on the other hand, if they don't do that, it's not like you can have someone wearing

01:10:28 ◼   ► the headset and you know waving things around and then you get to look on a

01:10:32 ◼   ► screen to see what they see that doesn't give you the experience either you have

01:10:34 ◼   ► to actually put it on your head but I don't think Apple would want you to put

01:10:37 ◼   ► it on your head and if they did want you to put it on your head they'd be much

01:10:40 ◼   ► more likely to do that with a group of a couple hundred people and that brings up

01:10:44 ◼   ► another question about this by the way do it does anyone know how many people

01:10:47 ◼   ► have been invited to go to not press but how many like regular people have been

01:10:52 ◼   ► invited to go to Apple bar not at all no I don't think that information has come

01:10:56 ◼   ► I mean, maybe it's 5,500 people.

01:10:59 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:10:59 ◼   ► Like, we were talking about this as if it's

01:11:01 ◼   ► going to be a few hundred.

01:11:02 ◼   ► How many people can fit in Cafe Max?

01:11:04 ◼   ► How many people are in the ring building?

01:11:06 ◼   ► It's really a mystery.

01:11:07 ◼   ► Like, you know, you could ask all your friends

01:11:09 ◼   ► and maybe do an estimate and say, you know,

01:11:12 ◼   ► random sampling, how many people tried to apply,

01:11:14 ◼   ► and how many people got in.

01:11:15 ◼   ► But it's difficult because it's not actually random if you're

01:11:17 ◼   ► just asking your friends.

01:11:20 ◼   ► You know, it depends on what circuit you're driving.

01:11:21 ◼   ► Like, Paul Hudson, for example, I

01:11:22 ◼   ► think didn't get in until someone at Apple

01:11:25 ◼   ► got a clue and said, "You should invite Paul Hudson.

01:11:26 ◼   ► What are you doing?"

01:11:27 ◼   ► And he got invited.

01:11:29 ◼   ► So yeah, it's still a lot of questions about this,

01:11:33 ◼   ► but I think the in-person thing is entirely to do with

01:11:38 ◼   ► that you must have people in person

01:11:39 ◼   ► if you want to do effective marketing

01:11:41 ◼   ► to either developers or press,

01:11:42 ◼   ► and it has nothing to do with what is

01:11:45 ◼   ► or isn't going to be announced.

01:11:47 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

01:11:47 ◼   ► All right, so what do we want?

01:11:48 ◼   ► What do we want?

01:11:49 ◼   ► What do we expect?

01:11:50 ◼   ► How do you want to skin this cat?

01:11:52 ◼   ► Well, every WWC in recent memory,

01:11:56 ◼   ► there's a new version of iOS, a new version of Mac OS,

01:11:58 ◼   ► and also a new version of iPad OS, and maybe a new OS.

01:12:02 ◼   ► I didn't even put tvOS on this list.

01:12:03 ◼   ► I guess it's tvOS, and then Reality OS.

01:12:06 ◼   ► Did I miss an OS?

01:12:07 ◼   ► We got tvOS, Reality OS.

01:12:09 ◼   ► Is there another one?

01:12:10 ◼   ► Audio OS?

01:12:11 ◼   ► Watch OS.

01:12:12 ◼   ► Watch OS.

01:12:12 ◼   ► There's another one.

01:12:14 ◼   ► Watch OS.

01:12:15 ◼   ► Anyway, there are new versions of the major operating systems.

01:12:18 ◼   ► And every once in a while, there's

01:12:20 ◼   ► a new operating system like Reality OS,

01:12:21 ◼   ► if they do the AR thing or whatever.

01:12:23 ◼   ► I hope they don't call it ROS.

01:12:25 ◼   ► I think the code names in all the code

01:12:26 ◼   ► is that it's reality OS.

01:12:28 ◼   ► But anyway, what do we want from like,

01:12:30 ◼   ► let's start with the big one.

01:12:31 ◼   ► What do we want from a new iOS, from a new Mac OS?

01:12:34 ◼   ► Like, do we have anything that we really want

01:12:36 ◼   ► out of any of these OSs?

01:12:37 ◼   ► Or is it just more like,

01:12:38 ◼   ► well, whatever they give us will be nice.

01:12:39 ◼   ► Don't screw it up and fix all the bugs.

01:12:43 ◼   ► - That.

01:12:44 ◼   ► I think for iOS, something I have been fiddling with

01:12:48 ◼   ► a little bit more recently is shortcuts,

01:12:50 ◼   ► both on iOS and iPadOS.

01:12:52 ◼   ► And I like to create shortcuts to control

01:12:57 ◼   ► kind of system level things or things in the house.

01:13:00 ◼   ► So a couple of examples of this is I've been dabbling

01:13:03 ◼   ► with tail scale recently, which is very, very interesting.

01:13:06 ◼   ► And maybe we can talk about that another time,

01:13:07 ◼   ► but I've been dabbling with it

01:13:09 ◼   ► and I wanted to control tail scale a little bit more

01:13:13 ◼   ► and control VPN settings on the phone a little bit more

01:13:17 ◼   ► 'cause tail scale is sort of, but not really a VPN.

01:13:19 ◼   ► there's no real good hook in shortcuts to control VPN settings and

01:13:23 ◼   ► Additionally, I wanted to you know

01:13:27 ◼   ► I've been doing a lot of Apple Fitness Plus workouts recently has been talked about a lot recently and I have a shortcut that

01:13:34 ◼   ► when the

01:13:36 ◼   ► When I stop exercising

01:13:39 ◼   ► Then it will automatically turn the ceiling fan in the living room off if it's if it's not hot outside

01:13:46 ◼   ► Which is pretty slick, but I also wanted to be able to say okay

01:13:50 ◼   ► Well when I start a workout and you see that the Apple TV is on and playing Apple Fitness

01:13:55 ◼   ► Then go ahead and turn the fan on but there's no way to do that

01:13:59 ◼   ► Like there's no way to query what the state of the Apple TV is or not

01:14:03 ◼   ► And not any good way of doing it anyhow

01:14:05 ◼   ► And so I feel like more robust hooks for shortcuts would be really really cool

01:14:11 ◼   ► And I can't believe I'm saying that because I mean I've used shortcuts since it came out since it was workflow

01:14:16 ◼   ► even, but I'm not a particularly robust user of it, but I've been getting into it a lot

01:14:21 ◼   ► more recently, and I've found it really is quite powerful if you want it to be. But I

01:14:25 ◼   ► wish it could get its tentacles into more places. And similarly, similar idea, widgets.

01:14:31 ◼   ► I like widgets. I use them on both iPad and on my phone as well, but I do wish that they

01:14:38 ◼   ► were even just marginally interactive. And on certain size widgets you can have a couple

01:14:43 ◼   ► touch targets or something like that. But I wish they could be updated more frequently and not by

01:14:49 ◼   ► magic, but by the widget being asked if it wants to update or perhaps being told to update.

01:14:55 ◼   ► I haven't looked at how the widget system works in a while. Maybe Marco, you have more insight

01:14:58 ◼   ► onto this. But I wish they were a little more interactive and a little more robust, and I think

01:15:04 ◼   ► that both of those would be really cool. I'm sure there's other things I'm not thinking of. I mean,

01:15:08 ◼   ► I mean bug fixes, reliability, et cetera,

01:15:10 ◼   ► but recently, just this is a complete recency bias,

01:15:13 ◼   ► but recently those are a couple things

01:15:14 ◼   ► that have ground my gears.

01:15:16 ◼   ► I don't know, Marco, what are you looking for in iOS?

01:15:18 ◼   ► - What I want most from iOS is just more maturation

01:15:23 ◼   ► of the frameworks and the tools.

01:15:25 ◼   ► And the good thing is that's almost always what happens.

01:15:27 ◼   ► So I think I'm very likely to get that.

01:15:29 ◼   ► You know, like widgets,

01:15:32 ◼   ► the widget system is actually pretty good.

01:15:33 ◼   ► You know, some of the rumors are that we might be able

01:15:35 ◼   ► to get them onto the lock screen on the phone

01:15:36 ◼   ► and that would be great.

01:15:37 ◼   ► I've wanted some kind of additional customization

01:15:41 ◼   ► of the iPhone lock screen for a while now.

01:15:44 ◼   ► Any kind of widget advancements to make them

01:15:46 ◼   ► potentially slightly interactive would be very nice.

01:15:50 ◼   ► That being said, based on the way they work,

01:15:53 ◼   ► I actually don't expect that to happen.

01:15:55 ◼   ► - Same, yeah.

01:15:57 ◼   ► - Because they seem like they just wanna be

01:15:59 ◼   ► like these serialized pre-rendered SwiftUI views

01:16:02 ◼   ► and to have any kind of, like, you know,

01:16:05 ◼   ► when your widget's showing on screen,

01:16:07 ◼   ► none of your code is running.

01:16:08 ◼   ► Like the OS is basically showing the timeline of views

01:16:12 ◼   ► that you have given it, but the reason why widgets

01:16:15 ◼   ► don't have active buttons and things in them

01:16:17 ◼   ► is that your code is not running when those

01:16:19 ◼   ► are on screen necessarily.

01:16:20 ◼   ► And I think that side of how they're implemented

01:16:24 ◼   ► is likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

01:16:27 ◼   ► So I'm not expecting interactive widgets really.

01:16:31 ◼   ► But maybe certain ways to make them a little bit more lively,

01:16:35 ◼   ► certain advances in things like the timeline views,

01:16:38 ◼   ► maybe some ability to use some basic animations,

01:16:40 ◼   ► like in a controllable way.

01:16:43 ◼   ► That kind of stuff could be nice.

01:16:45 ◼   ► But for the most part in iOS, what I want is,

01:16:48 ◼   ► you know, make Xcode better, make SwiftUI better.

01:16:52 ◼   ► Right now, using-- - Oh, amen.

01:16:53 ◼   ► - I mean, using SwiftUI on iOS is still

01:16:57 ◼   ► a very frustrating rollercoaster.

01:17:01 ◼   ► When you're on the happy path and you're doing things

01:17:03 ◼   ► the way they do it on the conference slides,

01:17:05 ◼   ► It works great.

01:17:06 ◼   ► And the second it touches the real world,

01:17:08 ◼   ► you just slam into walls everywhere.

01:17:11 ◼   ► And it's very difficult to use Swift UI in the real world

01:17:17 ◼   ► without hitting major problems that

01:17:19 ◼   ► require huge amounts of deep dives and hacks

01:17:22 ◼   ► and workarounds and googling and everything else that

01:17:25 ◼   ► is a very frustrating time waste and often requires

01:17:29 ◼   ► you to rip out parts of Swift UI and rewrite stuff in UIKit.

01:17:32 ◼   ► This framework is now a couple of years old.

01:17:34 ◼   ► it's still very, very young.

01:17:36 ◼   ► Please make SwiftUI, SwiftUI significantly better.

01:17:39 ◼   ► And I think, and I hope they will.

01:17:42 ◼   ► So that's pretty much it for me for iOS.

01:17:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'd like to build though

01:17:46 ◼   ► on what you said about SwiftUI,

01:17:47 ◼   ► because I have had a pretty decent experience

01:17:51 ◼   ► all told with SwiftUI,

01:17:52 ◼   ► almost the entirety of masquerade as SwiftUI,

01:17:54 ◼   ► and it has caused me to relearn a lot of things

01:17:58 ◼   ► and to think of things differently.

01:17:59 ◼   ► By and large, it is pretty good,

01:18:02 ◼   ► But SwiftUI smells so deeply to me

01:18:06 ◼   ► like it is being dogfooded some more than WatchKit was.

01:18:10 ◼   ► Sorry, trigger warning, Marco.

01:18:11 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:18:13 ◼   ► But it doesn't seem like it's being properly dogfooded,

01:18:16 ◼   ► but dog, I don't know.

01:18:17 ◼   ► - Dogfed?

01:18:18 ◼   ► - Dogfed, right.

01:18:19 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:18:20 ◼   ► I'm not sure where to go from here,

01:18:21 ◼   ► but you know what I'm saying.

01:18:22 ◼   ► I feel like a lot more dogfooding would go a long way.

01:18:27 ◼   ► And it really seems like SwiftUI is one of those things

01:18:31 ◼   ► where as an academic adventure,

01:18:34 ◼   ► it is interesting and fairly robust,

01:18:36 ◼   ► but as soon as you try to do real world things with it,

01:18:40 ◼   ► it starts to fall down, just like you were saying,

01:18:42 ◼   ► it starts to fall down relatively quickly

01:18:45 ◼   ► and relatively spectacularly.

01:18:46 ◼   ► Again, I say that, and I'm being a little hyperbolic,

01:18:49 ◼   ► because Masquerade is SwiftUI and it does work,

01:18:52 ◼   ► and I did have to jump through hoops,

01:18:53 ◼   ► but it wasn't completely egregious,

01:18:55 ◼   ► but it was way more than I should have

01:18:57 ◼   ► for a framework that's already a couple of years old.

01:19:00 ◼   ► So I could not agree more that I want to see

01:19:03 ◼   ► like a deep concentration on SwiftUI

01:19:06 ◼   ► and I want to have them tell us,

01:19:09 ◼   ► like I think they made it public

01:19:10 ◼   ► like that the weather app rewrite was SwiftUI.

01:19:15 ◼   ► What they didn't make public

01:19:15 ◼   ► and what we have heard through the grapevine

01:19:17 ◼   ► is that it was a freaking mess.

01:19:19 ◼   ► Like frame rates were garbage

01:19:22 ◼   ► and they had to do a bunch of fixes

01:19:23 ◼   ► specifically to make the weather app work better.

01:19:25 ◼   ► But one way or another,

01:19:27 ◼   ► I think a lot more dogfooding on SwiftUI

01:19:29 ◼   ► would be really, really healthy

01:19:31 ◼   ► and help us do our jobs better.

01:19:34 ◼   ► And so often with Apple,

01:19:35 ◼   ► they'll throw something across the fence and say,

01:19:37 ◼   ► "Here, this is good enough, right?

01:19:38 ◼   ► "Just be thankful for it and buzz off."

01:19:40 ◼   ► And in reality, it's just not.

01:19:42 ◼   ► And so I really, really, really hope

01:19:45 ◼   ► that the State of the Union is basically,

01:19:47 ◼   ► here's all the ways that we've made SwiftUI better.

01:19:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, because SwiftUI, I mean,

01:19:51 ◼   ► there are just so many very large shortcomings

01:19:54 ◼   ► and frustrations with it in use right now.

01:19:56 ◼   ► Like, yeah, we need significant improvements in the API front.

01:19:59 ◼   ► We need a ton of bug fixes.

01:20:01 ◼   ► We need tons of new ways we can control

01:20:03 ◼   ► behaviors and appearances.

01:20:05 ◼   ► We need major advances in the tooling side of it.

01:20:09 ◼   ► SwiftUI right now has--

01:20:12 ◼   ► not only does it crush your machine performance-wise,

01:20:15 ◼   ► but when things go wrong, you get these really terrible error

01:20:19 ◼   ► messages or error behaviors that are inscrutable.

01:20:23 ◼   ► And almost none of it's documented.

01:20:25 ◼   ► almost none of it's discoverable.

01:20:27 ◼   ► The process of like, so you have a SwiftUI view,

01:20:30 ◼   ► which you know, you have all this like dot chaining

01:20:32 ◼   ► going on to do pretty much everything.

01:20:35 ◼   ► How do you know what dot chain you can apply where?

01:20:38 ◼   ► Well, the correct thing is for the tooling to assist you

01:20:41 ◼   ► with various auto complete things and good documentation.

01:20:46 ◼   ► And the reality is the tooling breaks constantly

01:20:49 ◼   ► and doesn't really help you very much.

01:20:50 ◼   ► The documentation is almost non-existent

01:20:52 ◼   ► and very kind of abstract.

01:20:54 ◼   ► There's not really like examples anywhere.

01:20:56 ◼   ► And so everything's very abstract and hard to know

01:20:59 ◼   ► what to look for.

01:21:01 ◼   ► So the answer really is you have to Google everything.

01:21:04 ◼   ► Like everything.

01:21:05 ◼   ► And the Google results you get are not Apple's documentation,

01:21:08 ◼   ► because it mostly doesn't exist, it isn't helpful.

01:21:10 ◼   ► What you're actually getting is like various Swift by Sandel

01:21:14 ◼   ► posts and stuff like that, because everyone

01:21:16 ◼   ► is asking these questions.

01:21:17 ◼   ► And they're so incredibly non-obvious

01:21:20 ◼   ► when you're in the coding environment

01:21:21 ◼   ► and in Apple's documentation and everything.

01:21:23 ◼   ► So you have to go to blog posts and Stack Overflow and everything because it makes no

01:21:29 ◼   ► sense.

01:21:30 ◼   ► It's not discoverable at all.

01:21:31 ◼   ► In the same way that like, I feel like all these dot chaining operators in SwiftUI, they

01:21:37 ◼   ► have the discoverability problem of swipe gestures and pinch gestures in touch screen

01:21:42 ◼   ► interfaces.

01:21:43 ◼   ► It's like, how do you do this thing?

01:21:44 ◼   ► Oh, well, you just type in dot accessibility modifier or whatever.

01:21:47 ◼   ► It's like, okay, but how would I have ever known that if you didn't tell me?

01:21:52 ◼   ► that's visible nowhere.

01:21:54 ◼   ► And it's all for the same goal of like,

01:21:55 ◼   ► we have these pretty, these code samples

01:21:58 ◼   ► that look so simple, they're so visually simple.

01:22:01 ◼   ► And it's just like, you know,

01:22:02 ◼   ► touch UIs that are super minimal and all gestural

01:22:05 ◼   ► are so simple looking and clean, right?

01:22:08 ◼   ► But then, okay, well how do I use it?

01:22:09 ◼   ► Oh, you gotta Google for it.

01:22:11 ◼   ► So I really, and I think a lot of that

01:22:15 ◼   ► is just inherent to both what's currently

01:22:17 ◼   ► in fashion and software development

01:22:19 ◼   ► and also the design of SwiftUI in general.

01:22:22 ◼   ► And so I don't expect that to change at a deep level,

01:22:24 ◼   ► which is unfortunate 'cause it needs to,

01:22:26 ◼   ► but at least within the bounds

01:22:29 ◼   ► of what they are likely to do,

01:22:31 ◼   ► I would hope for at least some slight improvement

01:22:34 ◼   ► in those areas.

01:22:35 ◼   ► But that being said, even that,

01:22:38 ◼   ► even hoping for slight improvement given reality,

01:22:42 ◼   ► I think that's a tall order.

01:22:43 ◼   ► So my more realistic expectation is

01:22:46 ◼   ► at least give me more dot modifiers and crap

01:22:49 ◼   ► that I'll have to Google that will allow me to do the behaviors I need to do in my apps

01:22:53 ◼   ► that will avoid me having to dive into UIKit.

01:22:55 ◼   ► Since we're in the SwiftUI corner here, I think it's something I've been stewing about.

01:23:00 ◼   ► I almost wrote something about it, but I didn't feel like I could nail it down to the point

01:23:02 ◼   ► where I could write something.

01:23:03 ◼   ► But I nailed it down to the point where I can blabber about it in a podcast.

01:23:07 ◼   ► You mentioned the dot chaining and everything like that.

01:23:10 ◼   ► But SwiftUI isn't just syntactic sugar for the normal things that you would do in UIKit.

01:23:16 ◼   ► Its whole point is that it's declarative instead of imperative.

01:23:18 ◼   ► you describe the way things are rather than saying,

01:23:22 ◼   ► if this happens, then do that or whatever.

01:23:24 ◼   ► And sometimes when you parachute,

01:23:26 ◼   ► someone is used to messing with UI kit into that environment,

01:23:29 ◼   ► they sort of re recreate imperative programming

01:23:32 ◼   ► by sprinkling state on top of their Swift UI views

01:23:34 ◼   ► and adding conditionals inside them

01:23:36 ◼   ► and basically doing imperative programming

01:23:37 ◼   ► in a declarative way.

01:23:38 ◼   ► It's like, look, I have if it's the same thing.

01:23:40 ◼   ► And now I just got to do is make sure the right state

01:23:42 ◼   ► gets sprinkled down to the right places.

01:23:43 ◼   ► And it's just like I'm writing imperative code,

01:23:45 ◼   ► but you're not.

01:23:46 ◼   ► It's trying to be declarative

01:23:47 ◼   ► and you end up making the structure

01:23:48 ◼   ► that gets fed to this larger thing.

01:23:50 ◼   ► And that's not just fashion, there is a point to that.

01:23:52 ◼   ► They emphasized this in the first round of SwiftUI

01:23:55 ◼   ► and things like that the machinery

01:23:57 ◼   ► that runs your declarative thing,

01:23:58 ◼   ► the fact that you don't have to write the machinery,

01:24:00 ◼   ► the fact that you can't write the machinery,

01:24:01 ◼   ► has advantages in terms of fewer bugs

01:24:04 ◼   ► because you're just essentially creating a structure

01:24:07 ◼   ► and then the machine, assuming the machine

01:24:08 ◼   ► is relatively bug-free, runs your structure

01:24:10 ◼   ► and you don't have to worry about maintaining state

01:24:12 ◼   ► and everything, it all happens automatically,

01:24:13 ◼   ► and then they can compress all your views

01:24:15 ◼   ► into one thing for efficiency purposes.

01:24:16 ◼   ► Like there are advantages, it's not just,

01:24:18 ◼   ► oh, declarative's in style, let's do that.

01:24:20 ◼   ► There are technical advantages to it,

01:24:21 ◼   ► which they touted heavily.

01:24:23 ◼   ► Those advantages are real, but of course,

01:24:25 ◼   ► what you just all discussed is,

01:24:26 ◼   ► okay, but there are also disadvantages.

01:24:28 ◼   ► And when I look at the disadvantages,

01:24:30 ◼   ► what SwiftUI looks like to me is

01:24:32 ◼   ► another declarative style technology

01:24:35 ◼   ► that I have a lot of experience with

01:24:36 ◼   ► that lots of people would describe

01:24:38 ◼   ► exactly the same way Marco just described SwiftUI,

01:24:41 ◼   ► which is I can't figure out how to do what I want.

01:24:44 ◼   ► The documentation is not useful for me.

01:24:47 ◼   ► There aren't enough examples,

01:24:48 ◼   ► and anytime I wanna do anything, I have to Google.

01:24:50 ◼   ► And the name of that technology is,

01:24:52 ◼   ► Chat Room, anyway, 7 seconds away,

01:24:53 ◼   ► it'll take too long. - CSS?

01:24:54 ◼   ► - CSS, that's right!