483: The Faceless Knob


00:00:00   - Are we recording everyone?

00:00:02   - I am.

00:00:03   Is your computer?

00:00:04   Maybe that's what we should be asking.

00:00:06   - Oh, yeah, so.

00:00:07   - What is the latest with that actually?

00:00:09   'Cause you were kicking around doing some sort of

00:00:11   like external recording as well, weren't you?

00:00:13   Or am I making this up?

00:00:14   - I am actually doing that right now.

00:00:16   So I learned through some experimentation

00:00:18   that the latency that I hear with using something

00:00:23   like the Sound Devices MixPre line,

00:00:26   I measured it to be something like 3.2 milliseconds

00:00:29   of input latency to the headphone jack,

00:00:32   that is relative to the sample rate, which makes sense.

00:00:37   Whatever the ADC that's going on there,

00:00:41   and then back through the DAC after the routing and stuff,

00:00:44   whatever is happening inside there,

00:00:47   it takes some number of samples of the sampled audio.

00:00:51   And if you run at a higher sample rate,

00:00:52   so I usually run my stuff at 44.1 kilohertz,

00:00:56   but if you run it at 192,

00:00:58   it shrinks it down quite a bit.

00:01:00   Like it could be because it seems to be

00:01:02   a fixed number of samples.

00:01:03   So if you just run the sample rate really high,

00:01:05   then it will take less time.

00:01:07   So I did learn that I am fine with the way

00:01:11   all these things sound at 192.

00:01:15   Unfortunately, I don't wanna run my interface at 192

00:01:18   because that involves like making absolutely massive files

00:01:23   and my entire processing pipeline afterwards,

00:01:26   all my templates for logic and everything,

00:01:28   the final output file, it's 44.1.

00:01:31   So that's not a great solution.

00:01:34   So what I've come upon is, you know what,

00:01:37   I love the way I sound from a USB pre 2,

00:01:40   I'm gonna keep using it.

00:01:41   What I have is this little Zoom F3,

00:01:44   which is a little tiny recorder.

00:01:46   Right now I am running through it

00:01:49   and using my headphones through it at 192 kilohertz.

00:01:53   So it sounds like almost no latency

00:01:55   or if there is audible latency at 192,

00:01:58   I can't hear it through this Zoom F3,

00:01:59   whereas I could hear it at 44.1.

00:02:02   So anyway, so I'm running the output of the USB-free,

00:02:06   which is what my computer's recording from.

00:02:08   So my computer's getting 44.1,

00:02:10   and I'm running the output of that into the Zoom

00:02:14   and using the headphone monitoring on the Zoom.

00:02:16   That's a temporary solution until I get

00:02:19   my full-time solution, which is going to be either

00:02:23   using the headphone outs on the USB-free to down,

00:02:27   Currently I'm in separated left and right mode

00:02:29   so that I'm on track one and you are on track two.

00:02:33   But my eventual goal here is gonna be to

00:02:36   either split my microphone into two

00:02:39   before it even goes into the input

00:02:41   and run one of my microphone's input branches

00:02:43   into a recorder and the other one into the USB Pre 2

00:02:47   and then just listen to that straight.

00:02:48   Or I'm going to take the output of the USB Pre 2

00:02:51   which is separated left and right for recording,

00:02:53   split that, put the separated version into the recorder

00:02:57   and take the other branch, run it into a mono summer

00:03:00   to re-mono-ize it (laughs)

00:03:04   and then listen to that through my headphone amp.

00:03:06   So these things are in progress,

00:03:08   I'm waiting on some of these parts to arrive from Amazon

00:03:11   over the next couple days,

00:03:12   but that's what I'm doing right now.

00:03:14   - Can I give you an alternative approach?

00:03:16   You could just learn to get used

00:03:17   to the mix pre-three latency, which is what I did,

00:03:19   because I did notice, like this is one of those times

00:03:22   where I really wanna say, oh, Marco, you are so silly,

00:03:25   This is not a thing, it's not real.

00:03:28   No, it's real, it definitely is a thing.

00:03:30   - I'm so happy to hear you say that, honestly.

00:03:32   No one else has ever admitted this.

00:03:34   Everyone else is like, "You can't possibly hear

00:03:36   "three milliseconds of latency."

00:03:38   I hear it, it sounds different, trust me.

00:03:40   - No, it's just barely noticeable,

00:03:43   but it's enough that it's annoying.

00:03:44   And eventually, over literally months,

00:03:47   'cause it took a while, I did get used to it.

00:03:49   Now I'm sure it would come roaring back

00:03:51   if I plugged the MixPre 2 in again,

00:03:53   but since I'm used to it,

00:03:54   I've got like two years of the pre-3 in,

00:03:56   I don't really notice it anymore.

00:03:59   And that would be a much simpler solution to your problem,

00:04:01   is to just get used to this latency.

00:04:03   - By far and away, you are correct.

00:04:05   That is the absolute right answer,

00:04:07   is for me to just suck it up,

00:04:09   and just use one of these modern interfaces

00:04:11   that has built-in recording,

00:04:13   like the sound devices MixPreline,

00:04:14   or like the Zoom F3 that I literally just bought.

00:04:17   It's sitting, like it is also an interface,

00:04:19   I could totally do that with that.

00:04:21   That is the right answer.

00:04:22   I don't wanna do it.

00:04:23   I want to use my USB Pre 2, I like the USB Pre 2,

00:04:27   both for its totally analogness of the input path

00:04:31   to the headphones, I also like the way its limiters sound

00:04:34   and work better than any other limiters that I've found.

00:04:38   So I just like it better and because I have the ability

00:04:42   to be a picky jerk with this, I'm going to be.

00:04:45   (laughing)

00:04:47   - That's all right, in just a few moments during follow up,

00:04:50   I will be telling you all the dumb ideas I have

00:04:52   that are genuinely the incorrect answer,

00:04:54   but I don't care, it's what I think I wanna do.

00:04:55   We'll talk about that in a minute.

00:04:57   (electronic beeping)

00:04:58   But before we get there,

00:04:59   we should start with some other follow-up,

00:05:01   including cleaning apps and quote-unquote launch services.

00:05:05   Tell me about this, Jon.

00:05:06   - This is just me misspeaking on the past episode.

00:05:09   We had a, I think it was an Ask ATP question

00:05:11   about tools that clean your Mac,

00:05:13   and do I need one of those tools?

00:05:15   We were talking about uninstalling applications

00:05:18   and how on the Mac applications may put things

00:05:21   on your disk in places other than inside their little bundle

00:05:25   in the application folder or whatever and what I said was the only

00:05:28   thing you really have to you know potentially worry about for

00:05:32   residue that's left by apps are I kept saying things that are in

00:05:37   launch services but I think I had launch services on the brain because it'd been

00:05:41   mentioned earlier in the episode and I said it a bunch of times and I just

00:05:43   wanted to clarify what you're looking for are things that

00:05:47   are run by launch d launch d is if you're familiar with

00:05:50   Unix is kind of like a replacement for the init process and for it's kind of like xi net d if

00:05:56   you're an old school unix user if you don't know any of those things are basically it it also

00:06:00   replaces cron kind of but not really because cron is still there um it will run programs for you

00:06:07   either according to a schedule or on demand um and so applications can add their own things to launch

00:06:15   d you can make a launch agent or launch daemon these distinctions don't really matter that much

00:06:19   but like it's a thing they it's basically like a p-list that they put in there that has rules to say hey

00:06:23   When someone connects to port one two three launch my program or like it at 12 a.m. Every day

00:06:30   Run this script or whatever. You can really put anything you want there. It's very flexible

00:06:35   I think you can even run things in response to devices being connected or maybe you in volume is being mounted launched

00:06:41   He does tons of stuff, right?

00:06:42   But the point is if you if an application has an installer or if it prompts you to install something or whatever

00:06:48   it's possible that an application may add something to, like a job, or multiple jobs,

00:06:53   to launch to you.

00:06:54   Lots of applications do this.

00:06:56   So when you throw your application in the trash, you don't care about like, "Oh, it

00:07:00   left a preferences file around.

00:07:01   I don't want that preference file."

00:07:03   Even if your MarCO can't stand the two kilobytes that's taking in your disk, or four because

00:07:07   it's the minimum block size or whatever, it's not that big a deal.

00:07:10   And by the way, I would argue that it's good to leave the preferences file around because

00:07:13   if you ever reinstall that program, it will remember your preferences from the last time

00:07:16   you had it installed and if assuming you can still read that preference file format it's nice to not lose your preferences right so stuff like

00:07:22   that you don't really care too much about or if cache files those will get cleaned out eventually too

00:07:25   But if the application left a job like a job is run by launchd around lots of weird things could happen

00:07:32   so first it could be that that launchd job referenced a

00:07:35   you know an executable inside the app bundle

00:07:38   But you threw out the app bundle

00:07:39   But the launchd job is still there and every once in a while launchd is like oh I got to run this thing and tries

00:07:45   to run and it's like, oh, I couldn't run it,

00:07:47   I couldn't find the executable 'cause it's looking

00:07:48   for like slash application slash my cool app

00:07:51   dot app slash whatever blah blah blah,

00:07:52   and it's not there.

00:07:54   It's not that big of a deal, but like every single day

00:07:56   or every 10 minutes or every one hour

00:07:58   or every time something tries to connect

00:08:00   to a particular port, this job is trying to run

00:08:02   and getting an error, that's kind of silly.

00:08:04   The other thing you could do is it could put

00:08:06   an executable somewhere, it could have like

00:08:08   on first launch, ask you to authenticate

00:08:09   and it shoved a file into user local bin

00:08:12   and that's some daemon processor or whatever

00:08:13   and then it has a launchd job that runs

00:08:15   that daemon process in response to something happening,

00:08:17   or maybe just runs it on a schedule,

00:08:18   or maybe just tries to keep it running all the time.

00:08:21   And you uninstall the application,

00:08:22   but now a piece of that application

00:08:24   is still running somewhere.

00:08:26   And hopefully that piece of the application running

00:08:27   isn't that big of a deal,

00:08:29   but if you were to look in Activity Monitor,

00:08:31   or look in one of these tools

00:08:32   that lets you look at launchd jobs,

00:08:33   you'd be like, what is this?

00:08:34   I deleted this application,

00:08:36   and yet some piece of this application

00:08:37   is still either running or trying to run on my computer.

00:08:40   And as harmless as it might be,

00:08:42   If you don't ever, if that happens too much,

00:08:46   you could end up with like, you know,

00:08:47   dozens of these things sort of running in the background

00:08:49   on your computer doing nothing.

00:08:51   And I can tell you from practice of having done this,

00:08:53   'cause I install a lot of software

00:08:54   and I delete a lot of software,

00:08:56   it's not usually the cause of any problems.

00:08:58   Usually they just try to run and fail

00:09:00   or run and just do nothing.

00:09:01   They don't usually take up a lot of memory.

00:09:03   Failing to run is not that big of a deal.

00:09:05   You probably won't notice it.

00:09:07   But if there's any category of cruft

00:09:09   that you might want to look into,

00:09:10   would be things run by launchd because that can be an actual real running thing on your computer

00:09:16   that serves no purpose after the application has gone. few applications do this. the ones that do

00:09:23   it are probably big names that you already know and they have their own uninstallers. for example

00:09:27   adobe runs tons of crap like that. microsoft runs tons of crap. but adobe has its own installer and

00:09:33   uninstaller. and microsoft i think they have a good uninstaller that gets rid of stuff like that. so

00:09:38   I wouldn't go around saying like,

00:09:40   I'm gonna delete all the,

00:09:41   I know Marco probably does this,

00:09:42   but I'm gonna delete all the processes

00:09:44   that I don't like from Adobe.

00:09:46   - I sure do. - I'm sure there'll be

00:09:47   no negative consequences for that,

00:09:49   and then their Adobe programs crash

00:09:51   or do something weird, and it's like, well.

00:09:52   - Wait, in my defense, Adobe programs

00:09:54   always crash into something weird.

00:09:56   (laughing)

00:09:57   - Well, I mean, what I'm saying is like,

00:09:58   if you're gonna use an Adobe program,

00:10:00   just let it run what it wants to run.

00:10:01   And if you're not gonna use it, uninstall it.

00:10:03   And especially with Adobe's subscription model,

00:10:04   they make it pretty easy to be like,

00:10:06   If you just, you know, if an Adobe program is annoying to you,

00:10:09   install it, use it for a week, uninstall it.

00:10:12   You can pay for it for a month or whatever for $30

00:10:15   and then uninstall it when you're done with it.

00:10:17   It's one of the advantages of the subscription model.

00:10:19   You don't have to sort of keep a copy of the program around

00:10:21   or keep it installed.

00:10:23   And you can even--

00:10:24   Creative Cloud always wants to run.

00:10:25   You don't have to let that run.

00:10:26   Take it out of your startup items.

00:10:28   Quit it.

00:10:28   They don't make it easy to do this.

00:10:29   But if you launch Creative Cloud and hit Command-Q,

00:10:31   it'll be like, are you sure you want to quit Creative Cloud?

00:10:34   Yes, you're sure.

00:10:35   But how will you collaborate with all of your be-hancements?

00:10:39   It's not like their auto-optators don't run.

00:10:41   I think that stuff still runs in the background.

00:10:43   It doesn't on my computer.

00:10:46   I guess it's a good place to recommend a LaunchD.

00:10:49   I said I don't use these cleaner apps,

00:10:51   but I do have an application that

00:10:53   lets me look at jobs that are running in LaunchD.

00:10:55   And every once in a while, I would look at that list of jobs

00:10:58   and be like, is there anything here

00:10:59   that I know is associated with an application

00:11:02   that I no longer use that I can delete?

00:11:04   And the good thing about the LaunchD tools is you can just disable the job.

00:11:07   You don't have to delete it.

00:11:08   You can just say, let me just turn it off and see if anything breaks.

00:11:11   And if you turn it off and nothing breaks and you're sure it's associated

00:11:14   with something that you uninstalled, then you can delete the job.

00:11:17   So I'll find a link for the show notes for Launch Control,

00:11:20   which is my preferred application for doing stuff like that.

00:11:22   Warning, if you use Launch Control, you can totally screw up your computer.

00:11:25   Sometimes things that are run as launch agents and launch demons

00:11:28   are important for the operation of your system.

00:11:30   If you don't know what it is, don't blindly delete it. You'll be sad.

00:11:33   Moving right along, I have a few quick notes about my Ethernet project. There's been no real motion.

00:11:38   There's been a lot of thinking about it, and we might talk about that a little bit later,

00:11:43   but there's been no real motion. However, I did get a lot of feedback that I wanted to quickly

00:11:47   point out. First of all, a lot of people, a lot, a lot of people recommended the Monoprice Slim

00:11:53   Cat6a patch cables. I don't have much to say about this other than if you're looking for an Ethernet

00:11:58   patch cable, apparently this is where you need to go because a lot, a lot of people recommended it.

00:12:02   Secondly, Jonathan Litt reminded me that fire stops may be a thing. So if you're going down a wall on the interior,

00:12:11   I don't recall exactly when this happened. It doesn't really matter, but at least here in the States, at some point

00:12:16   10-20 years ago,

00:12:18   they started putting horizontal pieces of wood in between the vertical studs in your wall. And my very limited

00:12:25   understanding about this is that it's in order to prevent fires from spreading or something along those lines.

00:12:30   Honestly, it's okay if I've got that slightly wrong, but nevertheless

00:12:33   That can be a thing

00:12:34   So if you're coming up from the floor

00:12:36   You know going up or maybe not the floor but going up from like a box toward the ceiling or perhaps down from the ceiling

00:12:42   to

00:12:43   Toward the bottom of the wall where the box will be that your Ethernet drop will be a lot of times

00:12:47   What you'll need is like a four foot long drill bit

00:12:50   That's bendy so you can drill a hole through this fire stop now what nobody ever mentions is

00:12:55   whether you should plug that hole

00:12:57   or try to put like caulk in that hole or anything.

00:13:00   - Inside a wall?

00:13:01   - Yeah, I mean, I guess not.

00:13:02   I guess people just say, well,

00:13:03   I guess this is where the fire's gonna go to.

00:13:05   - An interior wall's usually not even any insulation anyway,

00:13:07   so it's just an empty cavity.

00:13:09   - That's true, that's true.

00:13:10   - I will point out that regardless of what this code is

00:13:13   for the firestop things, if you have an older house,

00:13:16   what you may have, like many stud bays in my house,

00:13:18   is sort of like a little X, like cross-bracing

00:13:21   of two smaller pieces of wood in little Xs up the wall.

00:13:25   I'm not sure what the purpose was, I guess maybe for stability or like structural stability,

00:13:29   but they don't.

00:13:30   It's like they're thinner than an entire stud, so it's not, you know, you could in theory

00:13:34   fish the thing around the little x, but it's gonna mess you up.

00:13:38   Like there is a way to get the wire around and through the little x, but since you can't

00:13:42   see it and it's way down in the middle of the wall, if you have a very old house, you

00:13:45   may also find interesting things inside the stud base.

00:13:49   Or razors, you never know.

00:13:50   But anyways, so fire stops might be a thing.

00:13:52   I'm pretty sure that my house built in the late 90s, it does not have fire stops.

00:13:57   I'm not 100% sure about this, but I will say that in the neighborhood, there's a really

00:14:03   genuinely crummy thing about a year and a half ago, something like that, a house got

00:14:07   struck by lightning and almost burnt down.

00:14:11   In car terms, it was pretty well totaled and the top floor was absolutely destroyed and

00:14:15   the bottom floor was not in good shape.

00:14:17   And they've been rebuilding it over the last year and a half, very slowly, much to my surprise.

00:14:21   Thankfully the family was not in the house when it caught on fire.

00:14:25   They were actually on vacation, which is a crummy way to come home, but it's better than the alternative, I suppose.

00:14:29   Anyways, I was looking as I was occasionally, you know, going a long walk for exercise and as I was walking by recently,

00:14:35   I thought, "Wait, I should see if that house has fire stops."

00:14:37   Which obviously isn't apples to apples, but you would think if it doesn't have fire stops,

00:14:41   then mine certainly shouldn't either. And it did not have fire stops from what I could tell,

00:14:45   so I don't think that'll be a problem for me, but famous last words. We'll never know.

00:14:50   Maybe we'll find out.

00:14:52   Also, this is only tangentially related,

00:14:54   but shoot, I think it was Daniel Nelson

00:14:57   that pointed this out to me.

00:14:58   I might have that attribution wrong, I'm sorry.

00:15:00   But somebody pointed out that there are

00:15:02   what I'm gonna call power over ethernet Medusa cables.

00:15:04   That is not a technical term.

00:15:06   But what these things can do is,

00:15:08   let's say you have power over ethernet.

00:15:11   So you have an ethernet line that also carries power.

00:15:14   Well, there's these little dongles

00:15:16   that you plug your ethernet cord,

00:15:19   or your RJ45 jack into this little dongle and then out of the dongle comes not only Ethernet

00:15:26   but now only data but power in a different form. So for example you could get one that has Ethernet

00:15:33   and USB-C coming out the other end. So you plug Ethernet, power over Ethernet, you know, powered

00:15:38   Ethernet, you know what I mean, into the dongle. Coming out of the dongle is regular Ethernet RJ45

00:15:43   and an empowered USB-C connection. So for like an Eero for example, even though Eero's don't support

00:15:50   power over ethernet, you can get one of these $15 dongles and then plug power over ethernet into the

00:15:56   dongle, dongle into the Eero in both the RJ45 slot and the USB-C slot, and suddenly you've got a PoE

00:16:01   Eero. Obviously there's a lot of complications here that I'm kind of glossing over, but I had no

00:16:05   idea these were a thing and I think this is super cool. And they have it for USB-C connections,

00:16:09   for barrel pins or whatever they're called.

00:16:12   You know, the not coaxial,

00:16:13   but kind of coaxial looking things.

00:16:15   - DC barrel plugs.

00:16:16   - There you go, thank you.

00:16:17   There are apparently lots of these.

00:16:18   I had no idea this was a thing.

00:16:19   I don't have PoE in the house right now.

00:16:21   Maybe we will, maybe we won't.

00:16:23   But I thought this was super neat

00:16:26   and something I kind of wish I was aware of

00:16:27   just in principle.

00:16:28   So I don't know, maybe you two knew about this.

00:16:30   - For whatever, not only did I know about it,

00:16:32   I actually almost bought these last summer

00:16:34   because they're very commonly used

00:16:36   to do things like power security cameras.

00:16:39   If you have a camera that's not PoE,

00:16:41   but you happen to have ethernet running around

00:16:43   in various places, you can branch off one of these

00:16:46   power plugs and plug in a USB camera or something like that.

00:16:50   So yeah, actually I think I might have even bought one.

00:16:53   I might have it behind me.

00:16:54   I'm not gonna look now, but yeah,

00:16:57   I actually might already own one of these.

00:16:59   - Yeah, I mean, again, nothing that really helps me

00:17:02   right now, but if I were in the listener's shoes,

00:17:04   I would wanna know that this is a thing,

00:17:05   'cause I didn't know, so now you know.

00:17:07   And then finally, if we have interest in this,

00:17:09   let's leave it for the after show,

00:17:10   but my scope creep is a creepin'.

00:17:13   And I've started to convince myself

00:17:16   that maybe I should put fiber in the walls.

00:17:18   And--

00:17:19   - Oh my God.

00:17:20   - No, but there's reasons behind it.

00:17:22   There's reasons behind it.

00:17:23   - If he never actually does this project,

00:17:25   in his head it can be as complicated as he wants.

00:17:27   - Exactly. - Yeah, right.

00:17:28   - This is exactly right.

00:17:29   So anyway, I genuinely, I have no problem talking about this.

00:17:33   I don't think now is the right moment to talk about it.

00:17:35   So if you too have interest,

00:17:37   I am happy to bring this up in the after show.

00:17:39   But if you have run fiber in any capacity

00:17:43   and have experience with it

00:17:44   and would like to reach out to me,

00:17:46   please let me know.

00:17:46   I would love to hear your experience.

00:17:48   - So you were complaining about the cost and complexity

00:17:51   of running ethernet in the wall.

00:17:53   Now imagine something that's, I would assume,

00:17:56   probably more expensive per foot.

00:17:58   - And no, not really.

00:18:00   - Oh really?

00:18:01   Well anyway, it's at least-- - It's surprisingly cheap.

00:18:02   It's at least most likely more delicate

00:18:05   and harder to work with.

00:18:06   - Definitely.

00:18:07   - You know, you probably can't just like cut it

00:18:09   to whatever length you need, I bet there's a process there.

00:18:11   - Yeah, the bend radius limits.

00:18:13   - Yep, yep.

00:18:14   So, you know, I would imagine this is not going

00:18:17   to make your project simpler.

00:18:19   - Well, you're probably right.

00:18:21   - And also, why?

00:18:23   - Well, and again, I'm happy to talk about this.

00:18:25   Let's leave it for, let's put it in the parking lot, Marco.

00:18:26   - Okay, all right.

00:18:27   - Because I think, I have reasons,

00:18:31   and they may or may not make sense but I've convinced myself they do and we can

00:18:34   talk about it in the after show if we remember

00:18:36   but nevertheless I am having bad thoughts

00:18:40   yes you are. We also had Andrew Larson write in which I thought was very

00:18:45   interesting I'm gonna read most of Andrew's email

00:18:47   being the T-Mobile fanboy that I am, this is Andrew

00:18:51   I use T-Mobile's home internet solution for fifty dollars a month it's not

00:18:53   millimeter wave but mid band and yet another user on the 2.4 gigahertz band

00:18:58   Speeds are fantastic for the price, I think.

00:19:00   Speeds are up to 650 megabits down and consistently 120

00:19:03   megabits up.

00:19:04   Let me just interject my favorite story in the world,

00:19:06   which I've told on this podcast 100 times.

00:19:08   When we bought the house in 2008, I was overjoyed to

00:19:11   switch from Comcast to Fios.

00:19:13   And at the time, I was overjoyed to have 15 megabits

00:19:17   symmetric service.

00:19:18   This was blazing fast at the time, or at

00:19:20   least for home internet.

00:19:22   Andrew was talking about getting 650 megabits down and

00:19:25   and 125 megabits up from the freaking air.

00:19:29   Like, technology is so cool.

00:19:32   I can't believe that this is a thing.

00:19:33   It's bananas.

00:19:34   Anyway, carrying on with what Andrew had said.

00:19:36   You might think that since my internet comes from the air,

00:19:39   it wouldn't make much of a difference

00:19:40   to put everything on Wi-Fi.

00:19:41   I found this to be an incorrect assumption.

00:19:42   As it turns out, the spectrum licenses

00:19:44   that the big wireless companies spend billions of dollars on

00:19:47   are superior to Wi-Fi.

00:19:48   I have an Eero 6 Pro

00:19:49   and still run all the big bandwidth devices

00:19:51   and the things that don't move off of a wired gigabit switch.

00:19:54   Why?

00:19:54   of congestion of Wi-Fi in my apartment complex.

00:19:57   Even over wireless, wired still has its place.

00:20:00   So I mean, everyone's mileage may vary obviously,

00:20:03   but I thought this was a really good summary

00:20:05   of where you would think that wired Ethernet would be silly,

00:20:08   but actually it ended up,

00:20:10   is specifically in Andrew's circumstance

00:20:12   to be really, really powerful and worthwhile.

00:20:14   So I just thought it was a neat counterpoint.

00:20:16   - The wireless Internet future that we want

00:20:18   is still a little bit out of our reach.

00:20:21   The scenario we were spinning up last time

00:20:23   I was like, what if you were near one of those

00:20:24   like 5G millimeter wave things?

00:20:26   'Cause you know the speeds you get from those are ridiculous.

00:20:28   Like what if it's outside the window

00:20:29   of your apartment complex?

00:20:30   Wouldn't that be great, right?

00:20:31   But that's only great if you also throw in another

00:20:35   piece of technology that exists but is not,

00:20:38   like kind of like 5G, it exists,

00:20:39   but is not particularly widespread, and that's IPv6.

00:20:42   Because with IPv6, you don't have to run Wi-Fi

00:20:44   in your apartment 'cause literally every device you own

00:20:46   could have its own IP address,

00:20:47   since you don't need to do any NAT stuff,

00:20:49   and you know, I guess you still might wanna do

00:20:51   some kind of filtering or whatever,

00:20:52   But in theory, with the magic of IPv6, the average person might, and a good ISP that

00:20:58   uses millimeter wave 5G technology, everything could be wireless and you wouldn't have to

00:21:04   have Wi-Fi in your house.

00:21:06   And if it actually had those millimeter wave speeds and you didn't have deeply nested rooms

00:21:09   that the millimeter waves couldn't get to, you'd get amazing speeds having literally

00:21:13   no equipment in your house to deal with.

00:21:16   Kind of like you don't have any equipment in your house, probably, to be able to make

00:21:20   cell phone calls or use cell data because it's just magically in the air, but we're

00:21:24   obviously not there yet.

00:21:26   And in addition to the problems of being in an apartment complex and everybody having

00:21:29   a Wi-Fi network and it also being 2.4 gigahertz, which apparently the steam mobile thing is

00:21:33   as well, it would be better if people could just use the wireless stuff that comes over

00:21:42   the air without having to... without having to... everyone run their own network.

00:21:47   It kind of reminds me of the WDC, was it WDC?

00:21:49   Or, Macworld keynote where everyone was using

00:21:52   the MiFis in the room.

00:21:53   - Oh yes, yes, yes.

00:21:55   - And like everyone just wants wireless.

00:21:57   And if one, this is another tragedy

00:21:59   of the commons thing I guess.

00:22:00   All right, well I have a MiFi

00:22:01   and this is a great solution for me,

00:22:02   but when everybody has a MiFi,

00:22:04   it's not that great for anybody, so.

00:22:07   - Yeah, and IPv6, we haven't really talked about this

00:22:10   on the show, but I think if most people are aware of IPv6,

00:22:13   it's only because they were like probably

00:22:15   were asked to disable it at some point

00:22:17   while debugging their network issues.

00:22:20   It's another promise from many years ago

00:22:23   that hasn't come to pass for lots of complicated technical

00:22:26   and political reasons, so it's kind of sad.

00:22:28   - So can I ask the two of you and possibly all the listeners

00:22:31   a question about that?

00:22:32   As you know, I run servers.

00:22:35   I'm also a member of the internet.

00:22:39   Do I need to understand IPv6?

00:22:41   Because I don't.

00:22:44   and I'm kind of, I don't do anything to set it up

00:22:48   or to use it or to enable it or to disable it.

00:22:52   I just kind of pretend like it's not there.

00:22:54   I don't have DNS records for IPv6 for any of the sites

00:22:57   I run, I don't, as far as I know, listen on IPv6,

00:23:00   whatever that would even mean.

00:23:02   Because when they were designing IPv6,

00:23:04   what they probably should have done is just take

00:23:08   the IP address that we know and love

00:23:09   and just make them longer, and what they did instead

00:23:11   was make it way more complicated

00:23:13   and not just do that.

00:23:14   And so as a result, you can't just start using more bits.

00:23:18   You have to change the way things are done completely.

00:23:20   And I never bothered to fully learn it.

00:23:23   Do I have to?

00:23:25   - You're not running a service like Google.com

00:23:28   or Amazon.com.

00:23:30   Those companies probably do need to understand IPv6

00:23:33   because there are efficiencies of IPv6

00:23:36   that they might want to take advantage of

00:23:38   and customers might want to connect to them.

00:23:40   But your customers for your server

00:23:42   is the client software that you write.

00:23:44   And as long as you're OK, as long as your overcast on iOS

00:23:48   doesn't expect to connect through IPv6,

00:23:50   I think you're probably fine.

00:23:52   That's the problem.

00:23:53   Like, IPv4, the backwards compatibility of IPv4

00:23:56   and the ability to connect with IPv4

00:23:58   is just so pervasive that so many servers just

00:24:00   don't support IPv6 at all.

00:24:02   And it doesn't cause a problem, because they know,

00:24:05   well, if anyone tries to connect with IPv6,

00:24:07   anyone living in that world trying to do that probably

00:24:09   has an expectation of, well, if it fails,

00:24:11   to connect through IPv4, or if there's no DNS for it,

00:24:14   I'll connect through IPv4.

00:24:16   But there are advantages to IPv6.

00:24:17   So if you are a big network provider trying

00:24:19   to provide the best service possible to a world of clients

00:24:22   that you don't control, yeah, you'd have to support it,

00:24:25   or you should support it.

00:24:26   And right now, you may support it whether you know it or not,

00:24:29   because it could be that Linode or something is running an IPv6

00:24:31   gateway that gnats everything down to IPv4 for you,

00:24:34   and you don't even know it.

00:24:35   There's all sorts of stuff that could

00:24:36   be happening in the network layer that--

00:24:38   unbeknownst to you that allows this to work?

00:24:41   - Yeah, maybe, I don't know.

00:24:43   - The only time that I've found that I really needed

00:24:45   to figure out IPv6, this is another story

00:24:48   I may have told on the podcast before,

00:24:51   when I was running a piehole on Docker on the Synology,

00:24:54   if I remember right, that was my first real foray

00:24:56   into Docker, and I noticed that all of a sudden,

00:25:01   all of the ads were coming back on Google stuff,

00:25:04   and particularly like AdWords and whatnot,

00:25:06   and I'm not 100% sure, but I believe what happened was

00:25:10   Google had started to support IPv6

00:25:12   for all their ad paraphernalia.

00:25:15   And because I don't really know what I'm doing

00:25:18   when it comes to Docker,

00:25:19   I didn't have my Docker container instance,

00:25:21   whatever, configured for IPv6.

00:25:24   And I think there was a real struggle

00:25:26   to get it configured for IPv6 on the Synology

00:25:30   as the host in any case.

00:25:32   And so that was the original,

00:25:34   That was the original impetus for me getting a Raspberry Pi.

00:25:38   We probably need a different musical instrument

00:25:40   for that too.

00:25:42   - A Raspberry Pi triangle.

00:25:44   - We could have a whole orchestra over there soon.

00:25:46   We need Plex, we need vinyl, it's a mess.

00:25:48   But anyways, so that was the impetus

00:25:51   for getting the original Raspberry Pi

00:25:52   was moving into a dedicated device

00:25:55   such that I could use IPv6.

00:25:58   And once I did that, I noticed that I wasn't seeing

00:26:01   nearly as many ads anymore.

00:26:02   I think that's because all of these IPv6 lookups were now failing as design.

00:26:07   That's the whole point of Piehole. All of them were failing and so it was working as I wanted it to.

00:26:11   That's never going to stop being a funny name to me.

00:26:13   It's so great. It's so great. It really is. I don't care what anyone says. It's so great.

00:26:16   So anyway, so that's the only time I really had to interact with IPv6. It certainly sounds great

00:26:22   in the sense that if I understand things properly, and I think this is what you were saying, John,

00:26:25   anything can be addressed from anywhere to anywhere. But that also of course scares me

00:26:30   because how do you protect things,

00:26:33   and does everything need to run its own firewall?

00:26:34   - It's not that they can be addresses.

00:26:35   There's enough addresses to go around.

00:26:37   So we're used to the idea that the things inside our houses

00:26:40   have private IP addresses that are not publicly routable,

00:26:42   and we feel like that is an extra layer of security,

00:26:45   but that's not why it's like that.

00:26:47   It's like that because there aren't enough

00:26:48   IPv4 addresses to go around, and it has to be this way,

00:26:51   and it doesn't actually provide

00:26:53   any particular additional security

00:26:54   if your router is configured wrong.

00:26:58   It feels good to us.

00:26:59   "aha this IP address doesn't exist to the outside world but we're all connected to some sort of like

00:27:02   you know pnp router thing that gnats stuff to that anyway" and it's like are you sure about that

00:27:07   because you know anyway i i if i know it feels scary to be like what do you mean like

00:27:11   my random light bulb would have a publicly routable address that's the ipv6 world and it

00:27:17   seems scary because it seems like it's less secure but i don't think it's any less secure and it is

00:27:22   certainly more straightforward like that just you know again we're in the very early days of the

00:27:28   internet before it was clear that there weren't going to be enough IPv4 addresses, before

00:27:33   NAT was literally everywhere, everything had an IP address and you know it's well not everything

00:27:38   because NAT existed for a long time but like the expectation that a device would have a publicly

00:27:43   routable IP address wasn't ridiculous you'd sit at something at a university and you'd look at

00:27:47   what its IP address was and it would have like an actual publicly routable IP address it wouldn't be

00:27:53   192.168, it wouldn't be 10 dot whatever,

00:27:55   it would be somewhere under the class C

00:27:58   that your university owned.

00:28:00   And that doesn't mean from outside the university

00:28:03   you could just connect to it, because you probably couldn't,

00:28:05   'cause there's so many layers of networking between,

00:28:06   but it did mean that it had,

00:28:07   and it doesn't even mean that it was a static IP,

00:28:09   it could have been DHCP,

00:28:10   and it gets a different IP every time or whatever,

00:28:13   but it was a regular real IP,

00:28:16   and it just simplified everything,

00:28:17   and now with all the NAT stuff,

00:28:18   I mean, with modern technology

00:28:20   and with good routers and everything,

00:28:21   it's not that big of a deal,

00:28:22   but it is an additional complication that I'm sure,

00:28:26   you know, I shouldn't be frustrated at this

00:28:28   'cause I know so little about networking,

00:28:29   but like network administrators,

00:28:31   especially the people who were brought up

00:28:33   as network admins in the days that IPv6

00:28:35   was being rolled out, to think,

00:28:36   soon this will be so much simpler,

00:28:37   and then 20 years later in their careers,

00:28:39   like nope, still not simpler.

00:28:41   - We are sponsored this week by Linode,

00:28:45   my favorite place to run servers.

00:28:47   Visit linode.com/atp to see for yourself.

00:28:50   Linode is an amazing web host to run servers.

00:28:54   I run a lot of servers myself, and they are all at Linode.

00:28:57   I've slowly moved there over the years

00:29:00   because it's just a great host.

00:29:02   So first of all, they have amazing capabilities.

00:29:05   This is whatever kind of cloud service you're looking to start,

00:29:08   they probably support it there.

00:29:10   They have, of course, the compute instances,

00:29:13   what used to be called VPSs.

00:29:14   They're not called cloud compute instances.

00:29:16   They have special GPU accelerator plans.

00:29:19   They have a block storage product they can offer there.

00:29:22   Kubernetes, upcoming bare metal release.

00:29:25   They have an amazing API that you can script things with.

00:29:28   I actually have a few scripts myself to do things

00:29:30   like set up a new server, and it's super easy

00:29:32   to write against their API, it's just fantastic.

00:29:34   They have a one click app marketplace.

00:29:36   They support tools like Terraform.

00:29:38   It's just everything you want capability wise, they have it.

00:29:41   And they back this up with incredible support.

00:29:45   It's award winning, it's offered 24/7, 365,

00:29:48   And you get that same amazing support,

00:29:50   whether you're paying them five bucks a month

00:29:52   or 5,000 bucks a month, everyone gets the same support.

00:29:55   It's really, really great.

00:29:56   And there's no like, let me elevate you

00:29:58   to a different person, like none of that.

00:30:00   People who answer your tickets know

00:30:01   what they're talking about, and that's it.

00:30:02   You don't get passed around.

00:30:03   It's great.

00:30:05   And finally, the reason why I love Linode so much,

00:30:07   besides their great capabilities,

00:30:09   their good control panel, their great support,

00:30:12   is it is an incredible value.

00:30:14   If you look at around the industry,

00:30:16   look at what you're getting for your money,

00:30:18   Linode, it beats them all, it's great.

00:30:21   I don't know how they do it,

00:30:21   but they've done it consistently

00:30:23   for almost a decade that I've been there.

00:30:25   So visit linode.com/atp, create a free account there,

00:30:29   and you get $100 in credit to explore

00:30:32   this amazing host for yourself.

00:30:33   Once again, linode.com/atp, create a free account

00:30:37   to get $100 in credit.

00:30:39   Thank you so much to Linode for hosting all my servers

00:30:41   and sponsoring our show.

00:30:42   (upbeat music)

00:30:47   Moving right along, we got some really interesting feedback

00:30:49   from Alex with regard to USB-C KVMs

00:30:52   and the studio display specifically.

00:30:54   So Alex writes that on the show,

00:30:56   you called out a bi-directional USB-C switch

00:30:59   as a way to share the studio display between two Macs.

00:31:02   I'd like to have two displays shared by three computers,

00:31:04   two Macs and one PC.

00:31:06   So this didn't cover my use case.

00:31:08   After much searching, I finally found a single cable

00:31:11   that takes, get this, takes DisplayPort 1.4 and USB-A

00:31:16   and that goes into a single USB-C on the other end.

00:31:19   This was the missing link in my prior email.

00:31:21   With this, you can run a studio display

00:31:23   with webcam speakers and microphone all working.

00:31:26   This is great for using the display with PCs,

00:31:28   but more importantly, with KVMs.

00:31:30   Unfortunately, this does not appear

00:31:31   to be sold in North America,

00:31:32   but I was able to find listings for it

00:31:34   on eBay, AliExpress, et cetera,

00:31:36   and I've ordered it for my setup, says Alex.

00:31:38   So this is, I think it's like a VR systems cable

00:31:42   or something like that.

00:31:43   It's a Belkin, what is this?

00:31:45   getting to know the Belkin charge and sync cable for the Huawei VR glass. And so again,

00:31:51   on one end it's USB-C, on the other end it's DisplayPort in two USB-A. So if I understand

00:31:58   right, Alex is saying plug the USB-C into the Studio Display, plug the two USB-A and

00:32:04   the DisplayPort into your KVM or switch or what have you, and then suddenly you've got

00:32:09   the equivalent of your one cable going between the Studio Display and your Mac, but instead

00:32:14   it's one cable with three ends on the other side.

00:32:17   This is so weird and kind of confusing,

00:32:19   but apparently it works.

00:32:20   And Alex actually provided a YouTube timestamp link,

00:32:23   which we'll put in the show notes,

00:32:25   with video evidence of some other fellow trying this,

00:32:27   and it clearly working unless it's movie magic.

00:32:30   So I just thought this was super neat

00:32:31   and kind of fascinating.

00:32:33   - I would not want to debug this setup.

00:32:35   I can tell you that.

00:32:35   (laughing)

00:32:37   - Certainly not.

00:32:38   But cool that it exists.

00:32:39   Another one on the list of things that if I were a listener,

00:32:41   I'd want to know it exists even if I didn't need it.

00:32:44   A lot of people wanted me to comment on

00:32:47   what's going on with Google today.

00:32:50   And yesterday, I think as we record,

00:32:53   Google came to us hat in hand and said,

00:32:55   "Oh, oh, no, we were just kidding.

00:32:57   "If you're using Google Apps for your domain,"

00:33:00   whatever it's called now, G Suite or what have you,

00:33:02   "if you're using it for personal use,

00:33:05   "then we'll let you keep it for no cost,

00:33:08   "maybe forever until we change our minds again."

00:33:11   - You get another 16 years.

00:33:12   How long was it before?

00:33:14   - Yeah, right.

00:33:14   - Exactly.

00:33:15   So, yeah, so that is apparently a thing,

00:33:18   which is good for me because I didn't want to lose

00:33:21   like Google Docs, for example,

00:33:23   not because I rely heavily on it other than show notes,

00:33:26   but it would be a pain in the butt if I had to like,

00:33:28   you know, move all this to a Gmail account

00:33:30   or something like that.

00:33:31   And so I'm happy and I did sign up for keeping this forever,

00:33:34   but I have already long since moved Fast Mail

00:33:37   and I'm super happy at Fast Mail.

00:33:38   So if this had been the case originally,

00:33:41   Like if they had split off the business people and said,

00:33:44   oh, business people, you gotta pay,

00:33:45   personal people, we're cool.

00:33:47   Then I don't think I would have moved to FastMail

00:33:48   and I would have been just fine staying there.

00:33:50   But now that I've done the work of moving to FastMail,

00:33:52   which if you recall was almost no work at all,

00:33:55   it was stunningly simple.

00:33:56   Now I'm super happy with it

00:33:59   and I don't think I wanna change anything up.

00:34:01   I'm not planning on going back to Gmail

00:34:02   or anything like that.

00:34:03   I like the fact that I have a direct relationship

00:34:06   with FastMail.

00:34:07   I give FastMail a little bit of money each month

00:34:09   and they give me email.

00:34:10   That's the way it works.

00:34:12   I'm happy with that.

00:34:13   And I'm not saying anyone else has to feel this way.

00:34:16   In fact, Jon, I know your primary email address is still

00:34:18   a Gmail address.

00:34:20   But for me, I like that I have divorced myself a little bit,

00:34:25   just a little bit more from Google.

00:34:27   And obviously, I'm hypocritical in a bunch of ways.

00:34:29   I still have an Alexa in the house,

00:34:30   even though we barely use it.

00:34:31   So I'm not perfect, but I am satisfied

00:34:34   with where this has ended up.

00:34:35   And I'm kind of happy with where this has ended up

00:34:38   because Fast Mail has been super great so far.

00:34:41   I've only been on it like a month,

00:34:42   but it's incredibly good.

00:34:44   The iOS apps are actually surprisingly good too.

00:34:47   They're a little busy for my tastes,

00:34:48   but you can do basically everything,

00:34:51   including a bunch of like rule setting

00:34:53   and other things that I would expect to be only on the web.

00:34:56   You can do like everything in the Fast Mail iOS apps,

00:34:59   which is super cool.

00:35:00   And again, the website is blazing fast.

00:35:04   They have easy push email,

00:35:06   which when you don't have work email anymore,

00:35:08   and getting push email isn't necessarily a bad thing.

00:35:11   And logging into FastMail on an iOS device is super easy

00:35:15   because they just have you scan a QR code

00:35:17   and then it's a profile that you download and you're in.

00:35:20   So I am super happy with FastMail.

00:35:22   I'll put my referral link in the show notes one more time

00:35:24   just to be safe.

00:35:25   - That's why this is coming up.

00:35:27   - Yeah, there we go.

00:35:28   But they are prior and probably future sponsor

00:35:31   to be honest with you,

00:35:31   but they didn't pay me to say any of that,

00:35:34   not this episode anyway.

00:35:35   So, it really is true, hand to God, it really is true.

00:35:39   I really am enjoying it.

00:35:40   So, it's worked out fine for me,

00:35:45   but if you're in this boat

00:35:46   and you were kicking the can down the road

00:35:47   as long as possible,

00:35:48   that's what I thought I was doing, to be honest,

00:35:49   but turns out I didn't wait quite long enough.

00:35:51   This is why I didn't follow Marco's lead

00:35:53   of procrastinating until the last possible moment.

00:35:55   - Procrastination pays off again.

00:35:57   - Exactly, I procrastinated a lot,

00:36:00   but I didn't procrastinate enough.

00:36:02   - Yeah, I'm glad to hear that you're doing so

00:36:04   with the Fast Mail, 'cause like, this is how I've been for,

00:36:06   I mean, God, 10 years, or whatever it's been

00:36:08   that I've been on Fast Mail.

00:36:10   You know, I figured out email hosting once a long time ago,

00:36:12   and then I just haven't touched it,

00:36:13   because I haven't had to, because email is boring,

00:36:15   it doesn't deserve that much thought.

00:36:17   Like, it's just one of those things that just works.

00:36:19   You know, in the same way, like, you know,

00:36:20   I haven't revisited my home ISP journey anytime recently,

00:36:25   because we got files, and it's great, and it works,

00:36:27   and I don't wanna touch it, you know?

00:36:29   Like, I have my wonderful USB pre-2

00:36:31   for my microphone interface,

00:36:33   and there might be better ones out there now, I don't know,

00:36:36   but I have it now and I don't wanna touch it,

00:36:38   it works great, and that's a great place for things to get.

00:36:41   And things that are really boring

00:36:43   and don't really move forward that frequently, if at all,

00:36:47   it's not worth investing tons of your time

00:36:49   in trying out all the different options

00:36:52   and constantly being on the lookout for different things.

00:36:54   No, you find something that works

00:36:55   that's something boring like email,

00:36:57   you stick with it and move on to more interesting things.

00:36:59   - Yeah, a couple of pieces of real-time follow-up

00:37:01   based on the chat room.

00:37:02   CMF asks, "You don't set the rules on the website and just use mail.app. Odd." No, that

00:37:06   is generally speaking what I do.

00:37:08   That's what I do. I've never installed their apps before in my life.

00:37:10   Oh, no, and I did just on a lark, just because I was curious, and I generally speaking do

00:37:14   not use the FastMail apps. Generally speaking, I use mail.app. Well, I absolutely use mail.app

00:37:20   on my computer, but on iOS, my primary and almost effectively only app is mail.app. The

00:37:27   thing that I really like about FastMail's app, other than being able to tweak settings,

00:37:31   that it's really really fast if you want to delete versus archive. Like with iOS

00:37:35   you have to hold down on the archive button and you can swipe up to delete.

00:37:38   And if I'm just like trying to triage email really quickly, Fastmail's app

00:37:42   makes it really really nice to just because there's a button for archive and

00:37:45   a button for delete right there in the bottom which is super great. And then

00:37:48   Jared H asked how does Fastmail handle multiple tags per message so are there

00:37:52   like n duplicate copies of the message in IMAP folders? It can be like that. So

00:37:57   So if you recall, if you're not a Gmail user, I should say, the way Gmail works is it only

00:38:03   works with labels. It doesn't really have a concept of folders. I'm sure there's a gotcha

00:38:06   there, but for the purposes of this conversation, it only works with labels. And so if you translate

00:38:12   that to an IMAP world, then basically every place that a message or every label that a

00:38:19   message has, that message will be copied into that folder. So let's say, for example, I

00:38:24   tagged something as limitless, which is my business and masquerade. Well then there would be two copies.

00:38:30   There would be a limitless folder that has a copy of that message and a masquerade folder that had

00:38:34   a second copy of that message. That's the way Fastmail works by default and the way IMAP works

00:38:40   by default. The way almost every mail server works by default. But Fastmail, being Fastmail and being

00:38:45   super awesome, they optionally let you switch into a label mode, which is basically, if by all

00:38:51   for all intents and purposes, a Gmail mode. And then it works like Gmail where everything is a

00:38:55   label and so on and so forth. Now if you're working with a mail app like mail.app that

00:39:00   only speaks IMAP, then yeah you'll see duplicates everywhere. But as far as the one source of truth

00:39:05   on FastMail's side, it's labels just like it would be. It's the same experience as Gmail. Like with

00:39:11   Gmail, if you're using mail.app, it's the same exact thing. So you certainly can go that route.

00:39:17   And I tried going back to folders for like a week or two when I first jumped on fast mail

00:39:21   And then I realized for better or worse. I am so invested in this whole label lifestyle title

00:39:26   That I decided to just switch fast mail over to labels and I haven't looked back

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00:41:32   I wanted to quickly talk about something I noticed over the last few days.

00:41:37   I noticed that iJustine, who is a very, very famous and popular YouTuber, had an Apple

00:41:43   Fitness Plus Studio Tour.

00:41:45   Now I am not presently in the midst of doing Apple Fitness Plus workouts, but I am probably

00:41:50   going to go back to that soon.

00:41:51   I was going through a different program for a little while.

00:41:54   And for the longest time, I've really, really wanted to know, just out of curiosity's sake,

00:41:59   where, well not where, is the studio. It sounds like I'm trying to visit or

00:42:03   something. And plus I tell you it's in Santa Monica like every exercise. But

00:42:07   like what makes the studio tick, and I know nothing about you know

00:42:10   production or making videos as Casey on Cars can show you, but I just find it

00:42:15   interesting like how do they do this and what are they doing and what does it

00:42:18   look like. And especially what does it look like from the trainer's perspective.

00:42:21   Like if you're, we see the view that a consumer would see, but I'd love to

00:42:28   a behind-the-scenes tour and look at the flip side, you know, look at the cameras and look at what they see.

00:42:33   And so iJustine, whose work is generally very good, did this 10-minute, you know, Fitness Plus press

00:42:39   studio tour, and I watched it and it was fine. So then I go looking and I thought, well,

00:42:45   you know, knowing Apple, this is probably some sort of press tour that they're doing, and sure enough,

00:42:49   it is. So some other channel, eTalk, which I think might be Canadian, they talk...

00:42:55   - It's pronounced a talk then.

00:42:56   (laughing)

00:42:57   - Nicely done.

00:42:58   So on a talk, they spoke to a couple

00:43:02   of the Canadian trainers, one of whom is actually

00:43:04   one of my favorite trainers, but it was the same thing.

00:43:06   It was like a five to 10 minute puff piece and nothing else.

00:43:10   Then I also noticed that KCAU TV from Sioux City,

00:43:14   apparently, got access to this as well.

00:43:17   I have no idea how or why.

00:43:18   As I am recording this, their video of behind the scenes

00:43:22   Apple Fitness from May 6, 2022 has 38 views. So we're gonna give them a big bump potentially,

00:43:28   but nevertheless, all of these though, they were total puff pieces. It was so silly. Like

00:43:33   we didn't get any view of what it looks like from the trainer's perspective. They all seem

00:43:37   to be fed the same like five second pan shot of, of the control room. Like they were all

00:43:44   dumb. Like, and I'm not trying to make fun of the, the creators. Like I'm sure I just

00:43:48   and all these other people did the best they could with what they were allowed to do.

00:43:53   But like, if you're gonna do this, do it properly! Like, let us see some stuff.

00:43:58   And it was just so frustrating that we didn't get to see squat.

00:44:00   It's so... it's just so Apple. Like, let's put Jay Blahnik or whatever his name is

00:44:04   and some of these trainers in front of somebody, usually a YouTuber,

00:44:08   and they can cheer and rah rah rah about what Apple Fitness Plus is doing for people,

00:44:12   which is all admirable and worth celebrating, I guess.

00:44:15   But, you know, if you could have called a studio tour, the tour's a freaking studio! Like, come on!

00:44:19   What were you hoping to see? I mean, like, it's a bunch of cameras pointed at people, right?

00:44:24   I mean, like, yes. Are there secrets?

00:44:28   It's a TV studio plus some sweat.

00:44:30   Yeah.

00:44:30   That's true, but, like, when you're recording one of these programs, you know, a lot of times

00:44:37   they will start an exercise, like, when the music beat drops. Which, granted, you can change the

00:44:44   the music a little bit to time it against the video,

00:44:47   but it's not often the case.

00:44:49   It seems like they just organically,

00:44:52   that's the way they make it,

00:44:53   I guess they're doing their job right

00:44:54   because they make it seem that way.

00:44:55   I'm sure it probably isn't that way,

00:44:57   but they make it seem like they organically

00:44:58   happen to be saying, okay, three, two, one, go.

00:45:00   Boom, you know, in the pin, beat drops, whatever.

00:45:03   And it's just like, how does that work?

00:45:04   How do they know how many reps they're doing

00:45:06   or how much time is left?

00:45:08   And yes, I'm sure this could just be as simple

00:45:09   as an iPad with a countdown timer,

00:45:11   but like, I wanna see it.

00:45:12   If you're calling it a studio tour,

00:45:14   let me tour the damn studio.

00:45:16   Like I just wanna see,

00:45:17   I just think that stuff is fascinating.

00:45:19   - I think you're infusing a marketing video

00:45:21   with like a behind the scenes,

00:45:23   like sort of informative education thing.

00:45:25   They're two very different things.

00:45:27   - I know, but that's what I wanted though.

00:45:29   I wanted the studio tour.

00:45:30   - There's a little bit of like in the 38 view KCAU TV one,

00:45:35   they show like the control room

00:45:37   that shows all the different views in the thing.

00:45:38   And I don't know enough about Apple Fitness Plus

00:45:40   or television production to know if this is custom for Apple,

00:45:43   but a couple of the monitors have outlines on them.

00:45:46   And then I'm assuming they're, I mean, in the old days,

00:45:48   they'd be showing you whatever it was called,

00:45:50   like the title safe area, basically,

00:45:52   that wasn't covered by the, you know,

00:45:54   back in the days of standard edition television and CRTs,

00:45:56   there was an area around the edge of the CRT

00:45:59   that all video production assumed

00:46:01   was potentially not visible to people

00:46:03   because of like the plastic bezel

00:46:05   that was surrounding televisions.

00:46:06   Or even when they didn't have plastic there,

00:46:08   it was just like, look, don't put anything in this area.

00:46:10   So the quote unquote title safe area or whatever is,

00:46:13   here's where you can actually put content.

00:46:15   Yes, the picture will go to the edge,

00:46:17   but don't put anything you want people to see there.

00:46:19   So for example, don't put text that high or that low

00:46:22   or that far to the right or that far to the left.

00:46:24   Well, and so many cameras would have the title safe area

00:46:27   with a little outline.

00:46:28   So if you're in production, you could say,

00:46:29   okay, I got to make, even though this is what the camera

00:46:32   sees, make sure that anything I care about

00:46:34   is inside this white box.

00:46:35   Well, in this behind the scenes thing,

00:46:37   they have a white box, which doesn't make that much sense

00:46:39   for HGTV and I've ranted about this on past shows

00:46:41   where the first round or the first several rounds

00:46:43   of high definition televisions also assumed

00:46:45   you had overscan and they would take the 1080p signal

00:46:48   and they would stretch it slightly,

00:46:49   making it basically non-native and cutting off the edges

00:46:51   because anyway, most TVs don't do that anymore, I think.

00:46:55   But so it's got an outline like that,

00:46:57   but it also has gutters on the left and the right side

00:46:59   and I'm wondering if that is the area

00:47:01   that they're reserving for the little heart rate

00:47:03   monitor things or stuff.

00:47:05   Is there stuff that appears there, Casey?

00:47:07   - There is, yes.

00:47:08   Now that you say that, I wouldn't have picked it out

00:47:10   until you said something, but yes, I bet you're right.

00:47:11   In the upper left and upper right-hand corners,

00:47:13   on the upper right, it shows your rings,

00:47:15   in the upper left, it shows the time in that particular set,

00:47:20   the time in the entire workout, if I recall correctly,

00:47:23   and then your current heart rate.

00:47:24   I haven't done one of these in a couple of weeks,

00:47:26   so that's all off the top of my head,

00:47:27   but I think that's right.

00:47:28   - I mean, it's got gutters down the hall right and left,

00:47:30   so maybe that's just a standard part of TV production,

00:47:32   I don't know what it is, but what it made me think

00:47:33   is maybe they have custom things that are saying,

00:47:35   "Hey, when you're filming Apple Fitness or whatever,

00:47:37   be aware these parts of the screen should be reserved for HUD and, you know, for future

00:47:42   HUD stuff. Maybe if they're going to put more stuff in.

00:47:44   Well, and also, as I'm looking at this KCAU video once again, and I'm looking at 40 seconds

00:47:50   in of the minute and 50 second video, but sure enough, I didn't notice this the first

00:47:55   time I watched before we recorded, but sure enough, in the upper right hand corner, the

00:48:00   video of the control room, courtesy colon Apple. So they didn't even let them in the

00:48:04   in the control room, which makes sense.

00:48:06   I'm not surprised.

00:48:07   - It's a marketing, they're just trying

00:48:09   to advertise Apple Fitness.

00:48:10   - I know.

00:48:11   - This is basically an ad.

00:48:12   - I know it is, but I wanted more, I wanted more.

00:48:15   - Well, Casey, what we've learned today

00:48:17   is that Casey has a burning desire

00:48:18   to see the internal workings

00:48:20   of the production of Apple Fitness.

00:48:21   - I do, I really do.

00:48:23   I find this fascinating.

00:48:24   I had a listener write in who does work

00:48:28   for the company that I do other exercise videos with,

00:48:31   and they didn't provide me any particular state secrets,

00:48:34   but I found what little they could and did provide

00:48:37   utterly fascinating.

00:48:38   So I don't know, it just, it bums me out.

00:48:40   Like if you're gonna call it a studio tour,

00:48:41   give me a tour of the studio.

00:48:42   Otherwise just call it the Apple Fitness Plus.

00:48:44   They invited me in and nobody else gets to go, so I went.

00:48:47   That's what they should have called it.

00:48:48   That's all right though.

00:48:49   All right, moving right along.

00:48:51   Tell me about the Rivian and how it sucks.

00:48:54   - All right, so the Rivian, the embargo on Rivian reviews

00:48:59   dropped like what this past week I think.

00:49:01   So everyone who got their Rivian,

00:49:03   and people know it's a big electric pickup truck.

00:49:05   And they're delivered to people now,

00:49:07   and you know people are reviewing them,

00:49:08   and you can see tons of videos about them.

00:49:10   And one of the videos I was watching was a very long,

00:49:14   I don't know what it's called,

00:49:14   it's an Instagram story, Instagram reel, whatever.

00:49:16   The thing where you do a very long vertical video

00:49:19   on Instagram.

00:49:20   And Quinn Nelson of the Snazzy Labs YouTube channel

00:49:23   got a Rivian, he's super excited about it.

00:49:27   And he did a really long video of him

00:49:28   just taking his phone around the truck

00:49:30   and looking at all the different things.

00:49:32   And at one point he was showing how the controls work

00:49:35   around the steering wheel,

00:49:36   like the stock controls or whatever.

00:49:37   And I was watching it and something occurred to me

00:49:40   that should have occurred to me a lot sooner.

00:49:43   And I was like, huh, that explains so much

00:49:45   and I'm gonna definitely think about that

00:49:46   as I think about more car stuff in the future.

00:49:50   And then I didn't think about it much anymore.

00:49:53   And then later that same week, somebody was,

00:49:55   Jason I think, Jason Snell in one of our slacks, posted a video of something that made me think

00:50:00   like this is an issue worth sharing so I'm going to share this thing that occurred to

00:50:06   me which is not, you know, it's obvious and maybe it occurred to everyone else but it's

00:50:11   the first time I thought of it as an actionable thing that should be added to the bucket of

00:50:15   things that car manufacturers think about when designing interior.

00:50:19   So the focus is on the left hand stock.

00:50:22   The Rivian does have stalks in the steering wheel.

00:50:25   And the one on the left has controls

00:50:27   for your lights and wipers

00:50:28   and windshield wiper squirter thing, right?

00:50:31   And Quinn was showing off it in his video.

00:50:33   If you wanna look at it, you can see it starts at

00:50:35   one hour, 10 minutes and 47 seconds into the video.

00:50:38   I don't know how to do a timestamp link,

00:50:39   but we'll provide you the link

00:50:41   and the timestamps you can scrub to it.

00:50:44   And it is a physical stalk

00:50:46   and on it are physical controls.

00:50:48   And he was demonstrating how the wipers work.

00:50:51   Like most wipers and cars, they have different speeds,

00:50:53   slow, fast, whatever, depending on how heavily it's raining.

00:50:56   And he was praising these, because he's like,

00:50:58   "It's not a touch control,

00:50:59   "it's not all on the touchscreen or whatever.

00:51:01   "There is a stalk, and on the stalk,

00:51:03   "there is a physical thing that you press."

00:51:06   The thing that you press, though,

00:51:07   I don't know how to describe it,

00:51:08   it's like a little toggle switch

00:51:12   that goes up and down on the stalk,

00:51:14   but when you press it, if you press it up

00:51:16   and take your finger off of it,

00:51:18   it springs back to the center position.

00:51:20   So it's not like a light switch where it goes on

00:51:21   and it stays on and it goes off and it stays off.

00:51:23   This thing you can either press up or press down,

00:51:25   but whichever direction you press it, it's spring loaded

00:51:27   and as soon as you take your finger off of it,

00:51:28   it just springs back to the middle, right?

00:51:30   And the way it works is,

00:51:32   if you do that on the one that's wiper

00:51:34   and you press like up, up, up or whatever,

00:51:36   on the touch, not the touch screen,

00:51:38   on the LCD display that is the instrument cluster

00:51:41   that's right in front of the steering wheel,

00:51:43   you will see a little display on the left side

00:51:45   that shows one raindrop, two raindrops, three raindrops.

00:51:48   And as you hit up, up, up, the selection state will go,

00:51:52   okay, you've selected one raindrop.

00:51:54   Now you've selected two raindrops.

00:51:55   Now you've selected three raindrops.

00:51:56   So you can go up, up, up, down, down, down

00:51:57   with this little thing.

00:51:58   It might as well be a D-pad, but it's not.

00:51:59   It's a little toggle switch.

00:52:00   But either way, and that's how you pick

00:52:03   how fast you want the wipers to be going.

00:52:06   And I was looking at that and, you know,

00:52:07   and Quinn's praising it because it's like,

00:52:09   he doesn't like, he's had many electric cars,

00:52:11   including Tesla, and he doesn't like the fact

00:52:13   that to change the wipers,

00:52:14   you'd have to go through a touchscreen.

00:52:15   He loves having it on the stock

00:52:16   'cause it's near your hands and you can mess with it.

00:52:18   But I was like, boy, but it's such a shame,

00:52:20   like why wouldn't they just do a regular wiper control

00:52:23   instead of having this up, up, up, down, down, down

00:52:25   with a touchscreen display, like what a fumble there.

00:52:28   And then it immediately occurred to me,

00:52:29   like no, of course, they have to do it this way.

00:52:31   Like no car from decades ago would ever put

00:52:35   a wiper control like this intentionally.

00:52:36   And in fact, if you think about a car

00:52:38   that you have that's decades old or whatever,

00:52:40   the wipers are usually like,

00:52:41   either you twist something on the knob

00:52:43   or you press the stock up or down.

00:52:45   But the difference is in all those type of things,

00:52:48   If it's a twist thing, it's like you twist it a little bit

00:52:50   and that's position one, twist it a little bit more,

00:52:53   position two, twist a little bit more, position three,

00:52:54   whatever position you twist it to,

00:52:57   there's probably like on the knob there's like a marking

00:53:00   and on the other part of the knob

00:53:01   there's like the one and two and three raindrops

00:53:03   or whatever, it stays there, right?

00:53:05   Or if you have a knob where like if I press down,

00:53:08   that's the wipers on slow,

00:53:09   I push down a little bit more, that's faster,

00:53:11   push down a little bit more, it's faster still

00:53:12   and there's like three different places where it can stop.

00:53:15   And if you press it down to the middle place,

00:53:17   It stays there, the stock stays there, right?

00:53:19   But that's not how these work at all.

00:53:21   This is just a little toggle switch,

00:53:22   it always re-centers.

00:53:23   And the reason it does that,

00:53:25   and the reason this whole,

00:53:25   because it seems like a worse experience,

00:53:27   now I gotta look to see what settings it on,

00:53:28   I can't just feel where it is,

00:53:30   I can't look at my stock and tell what position it's in,

00:53:32   I have to like flick the whole thing.

00:53:33   But the reason it does it is obvious,

00:53:35   is that wipers are potentially controllable.

00:53:39   Anything that is potentially controllable

00:53:41   through a touchscreen can have a physical control

00:53:44   in the old style.

00:53:46   Because think of what would happen

00:53:47   if you had a twisty physical control where it's like,

00:53:49   oh, I twist to the two raindrops setting, right?

00:53:51   Then what if you went to the touchscreen

00:53:52   and changed it to three raindrops setting?

00:53:54   Now there's a conflict between what the wipers

00:53:56   are actually doing and what your little twisty thing

00:53:58   is doing.

00:53:59   So any physical control in a car with a touchscreen

00:54:03   where that same functionality is controlled

00:54:05   by the touchscreen, which basically includes

00:54:06   every kind of control, can't be a control

00:54:10   that moves to a position and stays there.

00:54:12   And that's bad for a physical control

00:54:14   because for a physical control,

00:54:15   moving to a position and staying there

00:54:16   provides information.

00:54:18   I can tell that my blinker is on because the stalk is down.

00:54:22   And yes, it's a blinking light and a noise or whatever.

00:54:24   I can tell how fast the wipers are

00:54:25   based on the position of the stalk.

00:54:27   I can tell if my lights are on or off

00:54:28   based on the position of the twisty thing,

00:54:29   which has a flat spot on it.

00:54:31   I could tell by feel, I can tell by glancing at it.

00:54:34   The physical state of a regular physical control

00:54:37   conveys useful information.

00:54:39   But in a car with touch screens,

00:54:41   you can't do that because it has to always

00:54:43   sort of return to center.

00:54:45   You can't look at this wiper stock

00:54:48   and know if your wipers are even on.

00:54:49   If you look at it, you just see a bunch of switches

00:54:51   that are in the middle position,

00:54:52   and they don't tell you anything

00:54:54   about the state of the wipers.

00:54:55   They don't tell you what they're on,

00:54:56   what speed they're on, nothing.

00:54:57   It might as well just be another interface

00:54:59   to the touchscreen, again, because of that conflict.

00:55:02   And I was thinking, well, it's such a shame,

00:55:04   that explains why so many, first of all, explains partially

00:55:07   why so many of these electronic cars

00:55:09   don't have physical controls.

00:55:10   Part of it is obviously cost savings,

00:55:11   where once you have a screen and some software,

00:55:13   why not just put everything on it?

00:55:14   Tesla loves to do that. But the other thing is that if you make a physical

00:55:17   control it's got to be a crappier physical control because you can't have

00:55:22   that physical control be like manifest state in its physical state. You can't

00:55:27   have its position or anything about it convey information because now you have

00:55:31   a potential conflict with what someone would do with the touchscreen. And what

00:55:35   Jason brought up was like a video of a Buick from 2001 and this Buick had

00:55:42   volume controls on the steering wheel, which is something I think we, you know, most people are familiar with in

00:55:46   Vaguely modern cars up and down volume on the steering wheel super convenient, right?

00:55:50   And you have you think about that doesn't that run counter what you say like normally you hop down volume a steering wheel

00:55:57   But the days for touch screens you also had a volume knob and the way they got around this

00:56:01   and you know once you once you think to look for this you'll see it everywhere is

00:56:06   Sometime, I don't know a decade or two ago all of the knobs on electronics

00:56:12   lost the little marking that would tell you where it's pointing, right?

00:56:16   There used to be like a little black knob and they used to have a little notch on it

00:56:20   and if the notch was pointing down that was off and if the notch was all the way

00:56:23   you'd rotate it around if it was up at 12 o'clock it would be halfway, right?

00:56:27   Not all of them, Jon, not all of them because remember that I have volume

00:56:30   controls on my steering wheel and yet my stupid volume button on my car which I

00:56:36   I genuinely am happy to have, it has little line on it.

00:56:41   Well no, but it has the stupid vertical line on it.

00:56:43   So I have to keep it centered and never touch it.

00:56:45   Otherwise it drives me bananas.

00:56:47   I need to get one of those little black stickers

00:56:48   to stick over it so I don't ever look at it again.

00:56:51   - All right, well I'll ask you more about that

00:56:53   'cause I'm interested to know how that works

00:56:55   and how that doesn't end up causing conflicts.

00:56:56   But the way they dealt with, to get back to what I was saying

00:56:59   like the reason you don't see that notch anymore

00:57:01   in lots of things is because there's some other way

00:57:04   to change the volume.

00:57:04   So for example, a remote control.

00:57:06   like a receiver, once receivers got remote controls,

00:57:09   and maybe if you're old enough, you remember,

00:57:11   receivers didn't always have remote controls.

00:57:13   You'd have to go up to them and turn the knob

00:57:14   to change the volume on your record player receiver thing.

00:57:17   Once you got a remote control,

00:57:20   now you have a way to change the volume,

00:57:22   but it's different than the knob.

00:57:24   And so if the knob had a marking on it

00:57:26   and you changed the volume,

00:57:27   now there's a conflict between where the knob is

00:57:30   on the thing and what the volume is actually outputting.

00:57:33   And so what they did was they made the knobs

00:57:34   essentially spin forever with no markings.

00:57:36   So you could rotate the knob,

00:57:37   but you could just rotate it forever and ever and ever.

00:57:39   And there was no marking anywhere on it.

00:57:41   So if you did it clockwise, it would get louder,

00:57:43   and counterclockwise, it would get quieter,

00:57:44   but there was no notch to say,

00:57:46   here's maximum, here's minimum, here's one through 10.

00:57:48   And that lets you have the remote

00:57:50   and go volume up, up, up, down, down, down,

00:57:52   and not have any sort of physical conflict

00:57:55   because the knob was just faceless and just a sphere

00:57:57   and you never knew which way it was pointing.

00:57:59   - The faceless knob.

00:58:00   - Yeah, the Buick, and also many fancy AV receivers

00:58:03   did the same thing and probably still do.

00:58:06   What the Buick did was when you hit the volume controls

00:58:08   on the steering wheel, up, up, up volume,

00:58:10   it would make the knob with a marking on it.

00:58:12   On the dashboard, on the radio, turn.

00:58:15   So you'd press up button on the steering wheel

00:58:17   and you'd see the little knob turn

00:58:18   like a ghost was turning it, right?

00:58:20   And in that way they could keep the knob

00:58:22   in sync with the actual volume as inputted in the button.

00:58:25   Basically making physical controls

00:58:27   whose state conveyed information

00:58:28   because there's a little notch on it,

00:58:30   but also having an alternative way to do it

00:58:33   on the steering wheel and you know,

00:58:34   stereos did the same thing.

00:58:36   For the ones that kept a marking on their volume knob,

00:58:38   you'd hit volume up, up, up on your remote

00:58:41   and you'd see the volume knob on the AV receiver

00:58:44   move on its own.

00:58:45   I'm not necessarily saying this is the solution

00:58:49   to having good physical controls in cars

00:58:51   'cause as you can imagine, doing that is expensive,

00:58:54   delicate, finicky, like it's way more complicated

00:58:57   than just having like a wiper stock

00:58:59   that you move up and down through various positions, right?

00:59:02   But as cars increasingly have touch screens,

00:59:04   this is part of the thing that's causing car interiors

00:59:08   to get so much worse.

00:59:09   Because you want functionality to be accessible

00:59:12   on a touch screen, but every single thing you put

00:59:14   on that touch screen basically makes the physical control

00:59:19   alternative to it worse or nonexistent.

00:59:22   Non-existent is easiest, 'cause then you don't have

00:59:23   to worry about any conflict, but if there is

00:59:25   a physical control, I don't think people are gonna wanna

00:59:28   put little motors in there to sort of motorize

00:59:30   every other part of the thing.

00:59:31   I mean, it's neat that this Buick did it

00:59:32   for the volume knob and some fancy

00:59:34   Nakamichi stereo receiver probably does the same thing.

00:59:37   I don't know, is Nakamichi still a brand?

00:59:38   It was fancy in the '80s.

00:59:40   - It was very fancy in the '80s.

00:59:41   I don't think it's still a brand.

00:59:42   - Bang and Olufsen, I don't know.

00:59:43   I don't know what fancy AV brands are.

00:59:45   - I mean, I've seen the motorized volume knob

00:59:47   on receivers before and earlier in my life

00:59:51   and at that time, there'd be no reason for me

00:59:53   to ever see a very expensive piece of equipment.

00:59:55   And so, chances are, I think it made it down

00:59:57   to more reasonably priced options.

01:00:00   I mean, the Buick is--

01:00:01   I don't know what Buick model is.

01:00:02   This is what they don't say.

01:00:03   But it doesn't look like that fancy of your car.

01:00:04   It looks pretty darn plasticy.

01:00:06   So obviously, the technology--

01:00:07   It's a Buick.

01:00:07   It's not that fancy.

01:00:09   Yeah, the technology is within reach.

01:00:10   But it is probably more finicky and delicate,

01:00:12   especially if you're thinking of putting

01:00:13   little motors in stocks and everything like that.

01:00:15   And it would be weird to do something on the touchscreen

01:00:18   and have one of the stocks next to the steering wheel

01:00:19   move, also potentially dangerous to have

01:00:21   parts of the car near the steering wheel

01:00:23   move without you touching them.

01:00:24   So I understand why this is not a great idea.

01:00:27   But when I saw this video, it's the first time

01:00:31   that it occurred to me that there is like a real concrete

01:00:35   reason why car interiors are getting worse

01:00:37   with the advent of touch screens,

01:00:39   and it's not just cost savings,

01:00:40   and it's not just ill-advised, leaning too heavily into tech.

01:00:44   There is actually an issue here,

01:00:46   an unresolvable, not unresolvable,

01:00:49   but a not easily resolvable issue between functionality

01:00:53   on screens and functionality in physical controls,

01:00:57   And it's the same issue that has faced us

01:00:59   in all these other devices that have knobs in them

01:01:01   like AV receivers and other things that are out.

01:01:04   It's probably not as big a deal with AV receivers

01:01:05   'cause honestly the remote is better.

01:01:06   We don't wanna have to get up off the couch, right?

01:01:08   But when you're driving the car,

01:01:09   your hands are already on the steering wheel.

01:01:10   Physical controls and stalks are great.

01:01:12   They are superior in terms of ergonomics and efficiency

01:01:15   to having to go to the touchscreen for something.

01:01:17   But if it's also on the touchscreen,

01:01:19   suddenly your stalks are crappy

01:01:20   and you're going up, up, up

01:01:21   and looking at a little graphic change on the screen.

01:01:23   - See, but the thing that I find so distasteful about this,

01:01:26   even though the Rivian looks so freaking cool

01:01:27   and I really don't like pickups.

01:01:28   But the thing that I find so distasteful about this

01:01:30   is why do we need to control the wipers

01:01:33   via the touchscreen?

01:01:34   Why do we need a second control surface

01:01:36   for windshield wipers?

01:01:38   What's the purpose?

01:01:39   - Yeah, I mean, that's what I was saying.

01:01:40   Like, it's so irresistible to put the control

01:01:43   on the touchscreen, and once you do, you have that problem.

01:01:45   But like, for someone to come into the meeting

01:01:47   and say exactly what you said is like,

01:01:48   how about we just not have that control on the touchscreen?

01:01:50   Like, what?

01:01:51   You mean our comprehensive whole car control system?

01:01:54   Why would we not have the touch screen?

01:01:56   It's the best thing.

01:01:57   It's the most flexible.

01:01:58   We can put ads under it if we want.

01:01:59   Sometime in the future we need to make money.

01:02:01   Just the resistance to,

01:02:04   and I kind of understand the philosophy.

01:02:05   Shouldn't the touch screen be able to do everything?

01:02:07   Like it's software.

01:02:08   Why should we limit certain things to only physical controls?

01:02:11   But I don't agree with that,

01:02:13   but I can imagine someone saying that,

01:02:14   and if I had to throw something back in their face,

01:02:16   and it's like, well, why don't we let them steer

01:02:17   on the touch screen as well?

01:02:19   Shouldn't everything be on the touch screen?

01:02:20   Why do I have to use the wheel to steer?

01:02:22   But obviously, I lose.

01:02:23   - Apparently Apple's gonna ship a car with no windows

01:02:25   and no steering wheel and so on and so forth.

01:02:26   - Yeah, I think Johnny Iov doesn't quite understand

01:02:28   computers, but anyway.

01:02:29   - Well, and so another thing I wanted to bring up

01:02:31   is my dad, as I've mentioned several times in the past,

01:02:33   has some very fancy stereo equipment,

01:02:34   and a tonal denim in the chat reminded me

01:02:38   that his equipment, like his preamp and,

01:02:42   well, I guess preamp and stuff like that,

01:02:44   it does have a massive physical volume control,

01:02:47   and it has a remote control,

01:02:48   but what it does is it has a series of LEDs

01:02:50   encircling the spinner such that as you spin,

01:02:55   you know, as they say you're increasing the volume,

01:02:57   they'll be more and more and more

01:02:59   of these LEDs lit clockwise.

01:03:00   And as you decrease the volume,

01:03:01   then fewer and fewer of them are lit

01:03:03   or it'll look like it's falling counterclockwise.

01:03:05   And so that's another mechanism

01:03:07   by which you can solve this problem.

01:03:09   - Yeah, it's like another screen.

01:03:10   Or you can imagine doing with ink

01:03:11   if you wanted to get fancy and stuff like that.

01:03:13   You can even imagine little electronic stops in the wheel.

01:03:15   But like as what we've seen is just, you know,

01:03:18   If you have a modern car, your volume knob spins forever.

01:03:21   That's the way they've been for so long.

01:03:22   Even before touch screens, they were like that,

01:03:24   just because it allows you to have basically

01:03:26   the steering wheel volume controls.

01:03:27   Like, steering wheel volume controls have been around

01:03:30   for probably a decade before any car had a touch screen in.

01:03:34   But once they put those steering wheel volume controls,

01:03:36   everybody's stereo volume knobs just spin forever

01:03:38   and don't have marks on them.

01:03:39   And we all just get used to it, and it's fine.

01:03:40   And probably people don't much think about it,

01:03:43   but that's, and I think that's reasonable,

01:03:46   'cause it's not like you're glancing at the volume

01:03:48   not to know what volume level you're at,

01:03:49   but for things like wipers or whatever,

01:03:51   it is nice to be able to feel

01:03:52   like how fast the wipers are going

01:03:54   and do I need to go one more level up

01:03:56   or one more level down or whatever.

01:03:58   Again, probably not that big deal for wipers,

01:04:00   but just the Rivian's controls

01:04:03   really brought this home for me

01:04:04   because it's clear that Rivian is trying

01:04:07   to not be like Tesla in this way,

01:04:08   trying to have everything be as physical control,

01:04:11   but they can't, they haven't gone whole hog

01:04:13   and said we're gonna put tiny little motors in our stocks

01:04:15   I don't blame them. We're gonna put tiny little motors in our stocks to make it like it's a Honda stock and it will rotate

01:04:20   The stock for you or whatever

01:04:22   Moving right along Apple has pre announced some accessibility enhancements and they did this

01:04:28   It was either yesterday today as we record

01:04:30   There was a post in the newsroom and I'm gonna read just a handful of excerpts

01:04:34   People who are blind or low vision can use their iPhone or and iPad to navigate the last few feet to their destination with door detection

01:04:42   Door detection can help users locate a door upon arriving at a new destination,

01:04:45   understand how far they are from it, and describe the door attributes, including if it is open or closed, and when it's closed whether it

01:04:51   can be opened by pushing, turning a knob, or pulling a handle.

01:04:53   Door detection can also read signs and symbols around the door, like the room number at an office or the presence of an accessible entrance

01:04:59   symbol. They have on their newsroom page a bunch of like very very short like videos or gifs or something,

01:05:06   I guess they're videos, which demonstrate this nearly only 15-20 seconds.

01:05:10   And the door detection one in particular was super cool because it's a woman that appears to be blind

01:05:16   walking up to a door and it says, you know, there's a closed door eight feet away

01:05:20   Text and meaning there's text written on it text muffin to write home about bakery, which by the way is a very good name

01:05:26   Muffin to write home about bakery and then you know

01:05:29   And so it's helping her figure out exactly where she needs to go in order to enter the bakery

01:05:34   I just think that's super neat

01:05:35   continuing right along

01:05:37   Users with physical motor disabilities who may rely on assistive features like voice control and switch control

01:05:42   Can fully control Apple watch from their iPhone with Apple watch mirroring

01:05:45   Apple watch mirroring uses hardware and software integration including advances built on airplay to help ensure users who rely on these mobility features can benefit from

01:05:53   Unique Apple watch apps like blood oxygen heart rate mindfulness and more so that kind of answers the question

01:05:58   Wait, what why would you wear an Apple watch if you can't really operate the Apple watch?

01:06:02   So yeah, apparently it's so you can get you know detection of

01:06:06   of workouts and exercise and your rings

01:06:10   and blood oxygen and things like that.

01:06:12   So that's pretty neat.

01:06:13   - This kind of reminds me of when you could use iTunes

01:06:15   to rearrange the icons on your home screen.

01:06:17   - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:06:18   - Why would I ever use a desktop app

01:06:19   to rearrange icons on my home screen?

01:06:21   But we all know the answer to that.

01:06:22   'Cause it's a super pain to do it on your phone.

01:06:24   So for like this quote unquote disability feature,

01:06:28   being able to control your watch on a phone

01:06:31   with a bigger screen, I would like to use that.

01:06:33   'Cause I don't, sometimes you wanna do something

01:06:35   on the watch or with the watch,

01:06:36   but you don't want to use the tiny little screen.

01:06:38   If you've got your phone,

01:06:39   why not let me use my phone to essentially VNC control,

01:06:43   like it's a bigger screen, it's a better input device.

01:06:46   I don't necessarily have to,

01:06:47   and it's important, you know, to your point,

01:06:48   it has to be on your wrist to get like your pulse

01:06:50   and your blood ox, like it's still serving its purpose,

01:06:54   but I very often would not want to use

01:06:56   the tiniest little screen that I have,

01:06:58   and you know, hold my wrist up

01:06:59   and try to use my fat little fingers and the things.

01:07:02   Please, let, this is, you know,

01:07:03   again, accessibility is for everybody.

01:07:05   And I would like a feature like this,

01:07:07   'cause I think this type of thing

01:07:09   where you have something that's difficult to use,

01:07:11   whether it be rearranging icons on the springboard,

01:07:13   which Apple doesn't have to be this hard,

01:07:15   please improve this, or using a very tiny screen,

01:07:18   which has to be tiny 'cause it's on your wrist,

01:07:20   let me do it in a larger interface,

01:07:22   whether that be changing springboard around

01:07:24   on a desktop Mac, which I still wish you had a way to do,

01:07:27   or using your watch from your phone.

01:07:30   - Deaf and hard of hearing community

01:07:32   can follow live captions on iPhone, iPad, and Mac,

01:07:35   So that doesn't sound like much at first, but then here again, you look at the demo video

01:07:38   and it's two people talking over FaceTime, and as the woman on the other end of the call is talking,

01:07:44   there's a little overlay with exactly what she's saying on the screen, which is super duper cool.

01:07:49   And I can imagine how that would be super useful.

01:07:53   I mean, imagine, here's an example of accessibility for everyone,

01:07:56   what if you want to receive a FaceTime call, but you're in a place where having the audio play is unwise?

01:08:02   You just want to hear somebody talk to you and you don't have to contribute much.

01:08:05   You can just shake your head yes or no or whatever.

01:08:07   You can turn the volume all the way down and then just read what they're saying.

01:08:10   I know this is a little bit of a contrived example, but it is a thing that could happen.

01:08:14   As another example, I will sometimes watch video in bed when Aaron is either asleep or

01:08:20   nearly asleep and maybe I'm watching something short so I don't want to pop in an AirPod.

01:08:25   If I can't turn on closed captions or if it doesn't have closed captions on it, then I'm

01:08:29   I'm missing most of the video.

01:08:31   Or I'll just not watch the video at all.

01:08:34   That's part of the reason why when I was doing

01:08:35   KC on Cars, I always put in the closed captions.

01:08:37   And they weren't perfect, but I at least tried

01:08:39   to make them just about right.

01:08:41   So yeah, accessibility's for everyone,

01:08:42   just like you said, Jon.

01:08:44   - YouTube has auto captions.

01:08:46   And this is kind of catch up for Apple,

01:08:48   because most streaming services have some

01:08:49   for auto captions, and auto captions aren't always great,

01:08:51   and it's kind of funny to watch how they try to

01:08:54   take proper nouns and turn them into,

01:08:56   like the example that's going around

01:08:57   for all the television review channels that I watch

01:09:00   is they very often say C-U-T-I-E,

01:09:03   like something that is very cute, cutie, they say cutie OLED.

01:09:06   Right, they get OLED, right, 'cause I guess it's been added

01:09:08   to the dictionary, so it says O-L-E-D for organic,

01:09:11   light-emitting diode, right?

01:09:12   But it's such a cutie OLED.

01:09:14   Yeah, but it's, you know, this Apple playing catch-up here

01:09:18   is important and related to this.

01:09:20   We didn't cover this, we usually don't,

01:09:21   but Google had its I/O conference thing,

01:09:23   and one of the demos in Google I/O was another

01:09:26   easy to criticize as vaporware, but still interesting

01:09:29   technology, where it was showing glasses or whatever.

01:09:33   But the glasses aren't really the point

01:09:34   of doing real-time translation.

01:09:36   So rather than just we're going to transcribe

01:09:39   what the person is saying in the form of text,

01:09:40   which is super useful and is coming to all of our devices

01:09:45   and I think we're all going to enjoy it,

01:09:47   but what if you could talk to somebody who didn't speak

01:09:50   your language and see text of what they were saying

01:09:53   in your language below their face?

01:09:55   And again, the glasses are like, well,

01:09:56   I can just look right at them.

01:09:57   But in the glasses, I see what they're saying.

01:09:59   But even if you had to hold up your phone or whatever,

01:10:01   again, live translation apps have existed for years.

01:10:03   This is the type of thing that Google is usually very good at.

01:10:06   Like translate.google.com is extremely impressive.

01:10:09   And Google's been working on it for years and years.

01:10:11   And obviously, they're well positioned

01:10:13   to integrate this technology.

01:10:17   A lot of this supposed accessibility features are--

01:10:23   I guess they are accessibility features.

01:10:24   but not like every single one of them people look at it and say that's that's for AR VR because

01:10:30   a lot of the things that make our regular devices accessible are needed when your interface to it is

01:10:37   i'm looking through glasses or a headset or whatever because you don't really have a way

01:10:40   to get this information you don't have a mouse you're not touching a screen you need like you

01:10:45   know maybe not door detection but the ability for the AR VR thing to understand the world around it

01:10:51   to augment it.

01:10:52   Augmented reality needs to first know what reality is before it can augment it.

01:10:55   So before it can put the name of the person underneath their face so you remember their

01:10:59   name, it needs to identify where the person is, personal detection, which is an accessibility

01:11:02   feature they introduced a while ago, and it needs to know who they are, face recognition,

01:11:06   something they added ages ago in photos, right?

01:11:09   And putting them all together, plus a magic pair of glasses, now as I walk around in either

01:11:14   a family reunion or a work meeting or whatever it is, I can see people's names above their

01:11:18   heads and so I won't forget people's names or maybe I'll just have a different form of

01:11:22   embarrassing mistake depending on how good the technology is.

01:11:25   And the door detection as far as what I read uses LIDAR sensors so it works on the iPads

01:11:30   with LIDAR sensors and works on the iPhones with LIDAR sensors.

01:11:34   You would imagine that a fancy future AR headset would also maybe have LIDAR on it so it could

01:11:40   make sense of the world and you know be able to augment it.

01:11:44   So these accessibility features are like oh I don't care about accessibility I'm young

01:11:48   and healthy and everything's awesome for me.

01:11:49   Like every one of these technologies

01:11:51   is a future amazing technology that everyone

01:11:54   is going to love and use.

01:11:55   And I think the live captions are one of them because, again,

01:11:58   from what I've read about this, there

01:12:00   was a write up in six colors about it

01:12:02   that if I remember correctly, it was saying basically

01:12:04   any audio that plays in iOS in any app, you can tell iOS,

01:12:09   hey, if audio is playing, try to do that auto captions thing.

01:12:12   And so it's not like the app has to support auto captions,

01:12:14   as far as I'm aware.

01:12:15   It's kind of like a system level service.

01:12:17   I'm not sure how this would work.

01:12:17   Is it a control center thing or whatever?

01:12:20   But it's exciting because it's the type of thing

01:12:21   you usually don't get in iOS.

01:12:22   On the Mac, we're used to having system level things

01:12:24   like, oh, install this, install TextSniper

01:12:27   and you can extract text from images anywhere.

01:12:29   Obviously, Apple added that as a system service.

01:12:32   But before Apple added it, TextSniper had it.

01:12:34   And you could have been using that

01:12:35   and your app didn't need to support it.

01:12:37   TextSniper would just snipe that text from anywhere.

01:12:40   I would love to be able to do auto captions

01:12:42   on any app that plays video,

01:12:45   for exactly the reasons that Katie said.

01:12:46   Sometimes you're in an environment,

01:12:47   you don't wanna take out the headphones and put them on,

01:12:49   or you're someplace that's super noisy

01:12:52   and you can't understand what they're saying

01:12:53   even with AirPods in,

01:12:54   even with AirPods with noise canceling in

01:12:56   'cause it's super noisy or whatever,

01:12:58   try the captions, right?

01:13:01   Like, especially if you're talking to somebody,

01:13:02   if they say something weird,

01:13:03   you can ask them to say it again or whatever,

01:13:05   eventually the auto captions will be good enough

01:13:07   that you'll be able to understand what they're saying.

01:13:08   So I'm actually very excited about these features.

01:13:11   - Yeah, there's a couple of this real quickly.

01:13:13   Apple's also expanding support

01:13:14   for its industry-leading screen reader voiceover

01:13:17   with over 20 new languages and locales.

01:13:19   And this might be interesting for you, Jon.

01:13:21   With Buddy Controller, users can ask a care provider

01:13:23   or friend to help them play a game.

01:13:25   Buddy Controller combines any two game controllers into one,

01:13:28   so multiple controllers can drive the input

01:13:30   for a single player.

01:13:31   - It's kind of like, this is the thing we used to do

01:13:33   when Apple desktop bus came out, ADB.

01:13:36   It was the thing that Macs used to connect keyboards

01:13:39   and mice before USB existed.

01:13:42   And ADB was Apple Desktop Bus, and it was a cool, fancy thing

01:13:47   where you could chain multiple devices.

01:13:49   You'd have one ADB port, but then you'd

01:13:50   go from that ADB board into your big Apple Extended keyboard.

01:13:54   And then your Apple Extended keyboard

01:13:55   would have another ADB port, and then you

01:13:57   can connect the mouse to that.

01:13:58   So you didn't have to connect everything together.

01:13:59   I know this doesn't sound exciting to people

01:14:01   who live in the world of USB, but at the time,

01:14:03   this was exciting and novel because the alternative

01:14:05   was your mouse would connect to the back of your computer,

01:14:07   and your keyboard would connect to the back of your computer,

01:14:09   but not with Apple Desktop Bus.

01:14:11   And the neat thing about it was you could connect two mice

01:14:14   to your Mac.

01:14:15   And they both worked at the same time.

01:14:18   And so this is what this sounds like.

01:14:20   Buddy controller, the two game controllers

01:14:22   can drive the input for a single player.

01:14:24   You could have, like in a school computer,

01:14:26   you'd have a mouse on the left and a mouse on the right.

01:14:28   And each person would be trying to drive the mouse

01:14:30   at the same time.

01:14:31   Sort of-- I mean, we didn't have many games back in the day.

01:14:34   This is what we used to use ourselves.

01:14:36   It was like mouse wars, right?

01:14:37   Because if you were fast with the mouse,

01:14:40   When the person would hit the edge of the mouse pad

01:14:41   and then have to pick it up to move it or whatever,

01:14:43   you could quickly go and do and click on the thing

01:14:45   that you wanted.

01:14:46   Yeah, PlayStation and I think Nintendo also have

01:14:51   a sort of like share play type thing

01:14:52   where people can help you through difficult parts of games.

01:14:54   But the idea of both inputs playing at the same time,

01:14:58   I think it could work, but it's also ripe for conflict.

01:15:03   That's my experience of connecting to ADB mice.

01:15:06   If you have two kids trying to do this,

01:15:08   Even if one is supposedly trying to help the other,

01:15:11   there is the potential for sort of,

01:15:12   I guess, kind of like if you're trying to steer a ship

01:15:15   either to the left or the right of a fork,

01:15:17   having the ship go straight into the middle of it

01:15:19   and everyone dies because the left and the right

01:15:21   were both pressing at the same time

01:15:22   and the net force is balanced.

01:15:26   - This is all good stuff from Apple.

01:15:27   And I can't stress enough that the longer,

01:15:31   the more time you spend on the planet,

01:15:33   the more likely that one of these accessibility features

01:15:35   will end up being useful for you

01:15:36   in some way, shape, or form.

01:15:38   And not necessarily because something changes

01:15:40   about your body, it's just like Jean and I have said,

01:15:42   it could be a situation that you're in

01:15:43   that it just leads itself to.

01:15:46   - Or a situation where you didn't realize

01:15:47   this would be handy.

01:15:48   I think once live captions appear

01:15:50   and people, if they're implemented in a way

01:15:52   that people can find them,

01:15:53   so many people are gonna use them.

01:15:54   Because in contexts where computers have allowed

01:15:58   more people to discover captions,

01:16:00   I think captions are being used so much more now

01:16:03   than they were decades ago,

01:16:04   just because people like them.

01:16:07   How many people do you know who always watch,

01:16:09   this is like a secret weird things people do,

01:16:10   but it's not even that weird.

01:16:11   How many people do you know who watch television

01:16:13   with captions all the time?

01:16:14   Not because they're hard of hearing or anything like that,

01:16:16   they just like it because, oh, characters whisper too much,

01:16:20   or it's hard to tell with the sound mixer,

01:16:21   it's just easier for me to glance at,

01:16:23   or I can read faster than I can listen.

01:16:24   Some people just do this all the time,

01:16:27   and having the ability to essentially caption

01:16:29   any audio that plays on your device,

01:16:31   again, if it's implemented in a way that's discoverable,

01:16:33   I think a lot of people are gonna use that.

01:16:36   - This is the kind of stuff that Apple does,

01:16:39   not because, with Tim Cook's famous quote here,

01:16:42   not because there is a good return on investment here,

01:16:45   like monetarily, they don't do this for cynical business

01:16:49   or financial reasons.

01:16:51   They lead the world, I think, the technology world,

01:16:55   I think they lead the world on accessibility features

01:16:57   because they truly believe it's the right thing to do

01:17:01   And I think they get immense satisfaction

01:17:06   out of the ways they can help.

01:17:08   Because it's amazing, like, you know,

01:17:09   if you have some kind of need for any of these features,

01:17:14   and you go from not having that need served

01:17:16   by any technology to all of a sudden this existing,

01:17:19   that's a massive difference in your life.

01:17:22   And to help people that much, you know,

01:17:25   for like, you know, the normally abled people out there,

01:17:29   whether you buy an Apple product or not,

01:17:32   probably, it's not gonna make

01:17:34   a life-changing difference to you.

01:17:36   It's not gonna be like, wow, before,

01:17:38   I couldn't speak to anybody in any way,

01:17:41   and now that I bought this Apple product, I can.

01:17:43   No, because you could have bought an Android phone,

01:17:46   or you had other options, whereas,

01:17:49   if you have a certain type of disability or special need,

01:17:52   in many cases, if Apple didn't do this,

01:17:55   there literally wouldn't be anything else out there for you

01:17:57   to be able to do the same kind of things,

01:17:58   or you would have had to get different sorts

01:18:01   of assistive technology or different methods

01:18:03   of getting assistance.

01:18:04   So this, it really is like,

01:18:07   it's not a large number of people in the world

01:18:10   that this will benefit, but it benefits them

01:18:13   in an outsized way to them.

01:18:15   And Apple really cares about that.

01:18:19   And you can tell, I've talked to some of the people

01:18:20   in the company who work on accessibility stuff,

01:18:22   like they really do care a lot

01:18:25   because they believe it's the right thing to do.

01:18:26   And you know we will call out Apple

01:18:30   on any of their cynical BS when it's present.

01:18:33   We see right through all their cynical BS

01:18:37   when they're doing something for cynical reasons.

01:18:40   But their accessibility efforts

01:18:42   are not that kind of thing at all.

01:18:44   They really do an amazing job

01:18:47   and they do it really for the right reasons,

01:18:50   really to help people.

01:18:52   And yeah, sure, those people are gonna buy their products

01:18:54   and they're gonna make money from them,

01:18:55   but that they're not doing it just for that reason alone.

01:18:59   If it was a purely financial decision,

01:19:03   they would probably decide,

01:19:04   oh, it's not worth investing all this money

01:19:05   in this kind of stuff.

01:19:06   But they do because it's the right thing to do,

01:19:08   and that's really admirable.

01:19:10   And for a company that,

01:19:12   they rightly get criticized a lot

01:19:13   for not having a ton of those areas anymore

01:19:17   where they're just kind of doing it

01:19:18   for the good of everything,

01:19:20   this is one area that they always have done that,

01:19:23   and they deserve a lot of credit for that.

01:19:25   And like a lot of sort of pure science research,

01:19:29   science types of things, like doing things like this--

01:19:32   or the space program is the example you see trotted out.

01:19:35   Doing things like this, it seemed like,

01:19:37   it's like, OK, well, that's one good.

01:19:38   But what if I don't care about space?

01:19:39   What if I don't care about accessibility?

01:19:41   There are dividends from doing this,

01:19:44   because this work drives basic technology and research that

01:19:49   is useful more broadly.

01:19:50   From the space program, you get Velcro and the microwave oven

01:19:53   and all sorts of stuff.

01:19:55   And it's because someone was faced with a problem

01:19:57   where this ended up being the solution.

01:19:59   And oh, it turns out the solution is applicable

01:20:02   outside the space program, right?

01:20:03   So I'm not sure which part of Apple is driving which,

01:20:08   whether it's the accessibility team

01:20:10   driving the creation of the live captioning,

01:20:12   or whether it's live captioning being created elsewhere

01:20:13   and the accessibility team adopting it.

01:20:15   But I have to imagine there's sort of a virtuous cycle

01:20:17   of the need to do better in accessibility

01:20:22   drives technology forward in a way

01:20:24   that benefits all of Apple.

01:20:25   And I don't think that's why they're doing it.

01:20:27   But having an accessibility team is like having a space--

01:20:31   a well-funded space program in your country.

01:20:33   It's huge dividends that you may not realize.

01:20:35   And it's not why you have a space program,

01:20:37   but it sure is a nice side effect.

01:20:39   And for the people who are like, why are we putting all this

01:20:41   money into the space program?

01:20:42   What's the point?

01:20:43   You at least have something to say to them and say, look,

01:20:46   aside from all the awesome things

01:20:47   the space program does having to do with space,

01:20:50   how do you like your microwave oven?

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01:22:52   - All right, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:22:57   And let's start with Bill Steinbach who writes,

01:23:01   are there any iOS apps that you use

01:23:03   to listen to concert albums like this or Dave Matthews Band?

01:23:06   You know, jam bands.

01:23:08   With little kids at home, I keep getting interrupted

01:23:10   and having to switch my listening from DMB

01:23:11   to Baby Shark or Doc McStuffins.

01:23:14   There must be an app that treats concert albums

01:23:16   almost like audio books.

01:23:17   Here would be my suggested requirements.

01:23:19   It keeps track of your placement in the album,

01:23:21   it shows only albums that I deem as a concert,

01:23:23   some smart filter or something,

01:23:25   and it has to be compatible with Apple Music.

01:23:28   This is a great idea.

01:23:29   I have precisely zero recommendations,

01:23:31   so start learning Swift, I guess.

01:23:34   (laughing)

01:23:35   I mean, that's Marco.

01:23:36   Marco, you might know something that would fix this,

01:23:38   but I have no idea.

01:23:41   - I don't actually.

01:23:42   There are a lot of Apple Music playing apps out there.

01:23:46   Most of them, as far as I know,

01:23:49   don't have a Mac and iPhone version,

01:23:51   which is, every time we've talked about this in the past,

01:23:53   that's been kind of my holdup,

01:23:54   is I wanna use the same app on the Mac and on iOS

01:23:58   because I do a lot of music listening

01:24:00   in both of those places.

01:24:02   And so that's been one problem for me.

01:24:04   But ultimately, this is the kind of thing

01:24:08   I would love to do this, I would love to build one of these

01:24:12   because I don't know if I would ever really find one

01:24:17   that fit me right.

01:24:19   But the problem is whatever I would build,

01:24:21   it kinda has the to-do list problem,

01:24:22   whatever I would build,

01:24:23   if I build it really to fit my needs and wants,

01:24:27   it wouldn't really satisfy a lot of other people.

01:24:29   So the market for it I think would be very, very small.

01:24:32   But that's what I would actually want

01:24:34   would be something like this.

01:24:36   But I wouldn't want it to just play concerts.

01:24:39   I would just want it to be my new music player.

01:24:42   And so now we have Casey's Ethernet problem,

01:24:45   we have Scope Creep.

01:24:46   I'm not gonna just run cat five through my music player,

01:24:50   I wanna run fiber.

01:24:51   (laughing)

01:24:53   I would want to just basically rebuild iTunes,

01:24:57   but the good version, when it was just music,

01:24:59   rebuild iTunes for the modern day,

01:25:05   but then you get into questions of what's feeding it,

01:25:08   is it compatible with your streaming service of choice?

01:25:10   And then if it is, then that limits what you can do

01:25:13   with the audio, 'cause you generally can't get

01:25:15   raw sample access if you're playing DRM music files

01:25:19   through any of the supported APIs and things like that.

01:25:21   So there's all sorts of considerations here,

01:25:24   and the result is there's definitely demand

01:25:29   for lots of different music players,

01:25:30   but I don't think that demand is consolidated

01:25:36   on anything that, it's like these features

01:25:39   are what we have demand for.

01:25:40   No, everybody demands 60% of the possible features out there

01:25:45   and it's a different 60% for each person.

01:25:47   So this kind of thing I think would be very, very difficult

01:25:50   to ever build for anyone or to sell

01:25:54   in any context other than a passion project

01:25:57   you're making just for yourself

01:25:59   that would be exactly what you want

01:26:03   and it would be a labor of love

01:26:05   because you'd never make any money on it.

01:26:07   So that being said, I literally have thought about doing this,

01:26:10   and maybe someday I will, but I don't think it's very likely.

01:26:14   I mean, it should be a web app, because that saves you

01:26:16   from having to make it all the different platforms that all

01:26:19   people want to listen to it on and dealing

01:26:20   with the conventions of the different platforms,

01:26:22   whereas if you just make it a web app,

01:26:23   you can implement it once.

01:26:24   Everybody can use it.

01:26:25   Audio is well within the realm of dealing with web apps.

01:26:27   And yeah, it would still be a pain,

01:26:29   but you can imagine a band with a lot of money

01:26:31   would say, I'm going to make an awesome, let's say, fish,

01:26:33   where concerts are their big thing.

01:26:37   We're gonna hire somebody to make an awesome web-based

01:26:40   concert listening experience that we think

01:26:42   fish fans will like and it will be the fish concert

01:26:45   listening thing 'cause they don't need any other music

01:26:47   'cause they just listen to fish.

01:26:48   - Well, that actually already exists and I don't like it.

01:26:51   (laughs)

01:26:52   - Well, I mean, you have to make a good one.

01:26:53   - Fish is a great example because it is a band

01:26:56   that produces a large volume of concerts,

01:26:58   has a large fan base, many of whom are young

01:27:02   and want modern ways to play music and stuff.

01:27:04   So you would think it would be a perfect market for that.

01:27:07   And there is an app called Live Fish

01:27:10   through their officially sanctioned service

01:27:11   to sell all the concerts.

01:27:13   That's where I buy all the concerts from.

01:27:14   And you can pay for their streaming subscription

01:27:18   to be able to stream the whole catalog whenever you want.

01:27:21   And they have an app to do it.

01:27:22   And it's frankly not very good.

01:27:25   I've used it before and it's not something

01:27:28   that I want to use again. (laughs)

01:27:31   But if it was good, people would use it,

01:27:33   and it would be accessible to everybody.

01:27:34   And you wouldn't have to have seven people implement

01:27:37   their own passion project-- one for Windows, one for Mac,

01:27:39   one for iPad, one for the phone.

01:27:41   All this-- just use the web version.

01:27:43   But it doesn't surprise me that it's not good,

01:27:45   because as you know, making good software

01:27:47   takes a lot of money and time and dedication.

01:27:49   And I imagine a band is not in a position

01:27:51   to do much more than to throw a bunch of money to someone

01:27:53   to make a thing, and then once it works, they go away.

01:27:55   Right.

01:27:55   And it's clearly mostly a web view.

01:27:57   The app is very much not super native.

01:28:00   it's all web crap and it's not super reliable

01:28:04   and it's kind of clunky.

01:28:06   So yeah, but you're right.

01:28:08   The money is not in it to have a team of people

01:28:13   making really good native apps for this

01:28:15   for any particular band, even one as large as them.

01:28:18   But the problem is, the money's not really in it

01:28:21   for people to make one in general.

01:28:22   Even if it plays every band's concerts.

01:28:24   I mean, look at the market, look at how many

01:28:27   iTunes alternatives/Apple Music alternatives there are.

01:28:31   Again, as we talked about, they exist,

01:28:33   but they're not numerous and there's not a lot of must haves.

01:28:38   - I would agree there's not a lot of must haves,

01:28:40   but the chat room has brought up, who is this, Barrowclift?

01:28:45   I don't know who this is, John Barrowclift,

01:28:46   something like that, somebody Barrowclift.

01:28:47   Anyway, they go through and every year

01:28:50   they do a music player showcase.

01:28:52   It's a very interesting post,

01:28:54   and I at least glance at it every year.

01:28:56   And maybe one of these would do what Bill wants,

01:28:59   I don't think so, but there's a fairly robust

01:29:03   third party music player ecosystem,

01:29:05   particularly against Apple Music.

01:29:07   There's more than one would expect.

01:29:10   - Ultimately, I mean, if anything,

01:29:11   I think the odds of it being reasonable

01:29:16   to create one of these are actually better now than ever,

01:29:18   because you now have the advent of Swift UI

01:29:24   and Catalyst, making it easier to make the same code

01:29:27   run on Mac and iOS.

01:29:30   That being said, these never make for great Mac apps,

01:29:34   but that being said, the Apple Music app on the Mac

01:29:38   is not a great app. (laughs)

01:29:41   For so many, in so many ways.

01:29:42   - Apple Music app is piss poor on every platform,

01:29:44   as far as I'm concerned.

01:29:45   - But even the part of it that used to be iTunes,

01:29:48   like the part that just plays your local collection,

01:29:49   if you still maintain one of those,

01:29:50   like an old person like me,

01:29:52   Even that part is so poor.

01:29:55   Every time I launch the app,

01:29:58   it acts as though it's never been launched before.

01:30:00   It instantly loses your place.

01:30:02   There's no state restoration of where you were,

01:30:06   what artist you were in, what song you were playing.

01:30:11   There's constant bugs where now,

01:30:13   I think the bug is still there,

01:30:14   where if you change the star rating of a track,

01:30:18   about a second and a half later,

01:30:20   it jumps to the bottom of the scroll view for some reason.

01:30:22   Like there's just so many little bugs

01:30:24   and it just gets worse. (laughs)

01:30:27   So Apple's clearly not paying attention much

01:30:30   to this market either.

01:30:31   I think this market exists, but it's very, very, very small.

01:30:38   And so that's going to result only in passion projects

01:30:42   and kind of half-assed things.

01:30:45   - Yeah, it's a bummer.

01:30:46   Robert Batto writes, "What Safari extensions

01:30:49   are you running or recommend?

01:30:52   I haven't pulled this up yet, so I will stall by asking,

01:30:55   John, what do you do?

01:30:57   What do you recommend?

01:30:59   - Of course, my most important Safari extension

01:31:00   is the one I wrote, the ever important reload button.

01:31:04   - Of course.

01:31:05   - Reloads web pages, high tech, very sophisticated,

01:31:08   available for free at my website.

01:31:10   We will provide a link and I will not go over

01:31:12   the silly story of why I have it, but it exists.

01:31:15   And I do run that.

01:31:17   I also-- the other one that is kind of indispensable to me

01:31:20   is it's come under various names.

01:31:22   There have been various iterations.

01:31:23   But the current one is keyword search, Safari keyword search.

01:31:27   It's just an extension that lets you

01:31:28   define sets of characters that you can write.

01:31:31   So if you write, you know, whatever, like W space a word,

01:31:34   it'll do a Wikipedia search for that word.

01:31:36   It comes with a bunch of predefined ones,

01:31:38   like G space a word, and it'll search for that in Google.

01:31:40   And that may seem silly.

01:31:41   You could just like, hey, if you type any word in there,

01:31:42   it'll search Google for it if you have Google as your default

01:31:45   search engine.

01:31:45   but you can add any search engine you want.

01:31:47   You can search any website that has a way to run a search.

01:31:50   You can put a little keyboard shortcut in there,

01:31:52   and it's just a convenient way to do that.

01:31:53   I know lots of people use, like,

01:31:55   Launch Bar or Quicksilver.

01:31:56   There's tons of different ways to do it,

01:31:57   but I kind of like to do it in the address bar

01:31:59   of the browser, and so Keyword Search provides that.

01:32:02   I use the Instapaper extension.

01:32:03   It just lets me add things to Instapaper,

01:32:05   not too complicated, and then I just looked at my list here.

01:32:07   I'm kind of surprised.

01:32:08   I have a bunch of extensions that I mostly leave disabled,

01:32:10   but when I want them, I enable them.

01:32:12   So, for example,

01:32:15   And it's not that--

01:32:16   these are things that are part of app bundles, right?

01:32:18   So the way Safari extensions work these days

01:32:20   is you get a Mac app.

01:32:22   And inside the Mac app bundle, there's

01:32:24   a little nested Safari extension.

01:32:25   And Safari-- Mac OS finds that and tells Safari about it,

01:32:29   right?

01:32:30   So I have here in my Safari extensions list

01:32:32   the Downey Safari extension.

01:32:34   Downey's a thing that downloads video from YouTube

01:32:36   and lots of other places.

01:32:38   And inside the Downey app, I'm assuming,

01:32:40   is this Downey Safari extension.

01:32:41   And so that's in the list.

01:32:42   And if I want--

01:32:43   I have it disabled, but if I want to download something

01:32:46   and I'm in Safari, all I have to do is enable it,

01:32:48   download it, and then disable it.

01:32:49   And the main reason I leave a lot of stuff disabled

01:32:51   is because I just don't want stuff cluttering up

01:32:53   like my toolbar or any of my menus.

01:32:55   Sometimes they have scary security things

01:32:57   where they need to see every single webpage you visit

01:32:58   or whatever, and I don't wanna deal with that, right?

01:33:01   Let's see, what else do I have?

01:33:02   I have Hush installed, but I don't have it active

01:33:06   that blocks cookie notices and crap like that.

01:33:10   I have Fixerific installed,

01:33:11   which is an icon factor extension that

01:33:13   makes the Twitter website less obnoxious

01:33:16   in a few interesting ways.

01:33:17   I have the netnewswire subscribe to feed thing installed.

01:33:20   I think it's just part of netnewswire.

01:33:22   Netnewswire lets you do a thing that browsers

01:33:24   used to do natively, browsers used to, back in the day,

01:33:26   be able to find the RSS feed for a website

01:33:28   and feed it to your RSS reader or whatever.

01:33:32   And now there's an extension to do that for you.

01:33:35   You'll notice that nowhere on this list

01:33:37   do I have ad blockers, which may surprise you.

01:33:41   I run blockers on iOS in Safari.

01:33:45   And I don't think that's what this question

01:33:48   is asking about because I don't know if the people,

01:33:50   I guess they call it Safari on their phone.

01:33:52   So I always wonder if when people say Safari,

01:33:54   do they just mean the Mac version

01:33:55   or do they just think of like,

01:33:56   and my phone has a web browser too,

01:33:57   but what does it even call, who knows?

01:34:00   But on the phone, I think it's much more important

01:34:02   to run an ad blocker just because bandwidth is limited

01:34:04   and screen space and CPU and battery

01:34:06   and all those things are limited on the Mac.

01:34:09   For the most part, I'm more annoyed when some web app is

01:34:14   failing, and I realize it's failing because of some kind

01:34:16   of content blocker.

01:34:17   And so my Mac's plugged into the wall, and it's big and

01:34:20   powerful and has lots of memory.

01:34:22   And so, no, insofar as I don't run any ad blockers, so if a

01:34:25   website doesn't work, I know it's not because some ad

01:34:27   blocker's screwing it up.

01:34:29   And that's a trade-off we all have to choose.

01:34:30   Are you more annoyed by ads bothering you, or are you more

01:34:33   annoyed by the five minutes you spend trying to get

01:34:35   something to work on a website when the reason it's not

01:34:37   is because of a content blocker that you just realized

01:34:40   you need to disable.

01:34:41   - Marco.

01:34:43   - The only extension I run in Safari,

01:34:48   well I guess I run two, I run one password,

01:34:51   and I'm still running both one password

01:34:56   and Apple password stuff,

01:34:58   but I just turned off the one password thing

01:35:00   where it automatically pops itself up,

01:35:02   so that way I'm only having one pop itself up,

01:35:04   which is the Apple one, and that has,

01:35:05   I think, mostly solved my problem.

01:35:07   And then the ad blocker, OneBlocker.

01:35:11   And OneBlocker actually is like seven extensions

01:35:15   for various categories of things that it's blocking.

01:35:18   Now, it is really frustrating

01:35:21   when something breaks in Safari.

01:35:23   I have however found that Safari's own built-in weirdness

01:35:28   and privacy protection features seem to break sites

01:35:32   about as often as OneBlocker does.

01:35:35   So if I'm doing something in Safari

01:35:38   and it's not working for some reason,

01:35:40   something weird about it is not working,

01:35:42   I will just launch a different browser.

01:35:44   On my desktop laptop, it's Brave.

01:35:46   On my laptop laptop, it's Firefox.

01:35:49   I don't know why it's different.

01:35:50   I just tried different browsers

01:35:52   and neither one of them makes me care enough

01:35:55   to change the other one over to that one.

01:35:58   - If you're having a compatibility problem

01:35:59   with a website, by the way, I would suggest,

01:36:01   I know, Marcos and I always just use Chrome,

01:36:03   Because Chrome is the new IE in a couple of interesting ways.

01:36:06   And one of those ways is if a website works anywhere,

01:36:09   it probably works in Chrome.

01:36:10   So if I have a site that doesn't work in Safari,

01:36:12   even though I'm not running any blockers,

01:36:13   I just go right to Chrome.

01:36:14   Well, and to me, that's where Brave is a good choice.

01:36:18   Because Brave is one of those browsers that's

01:36:20   like based on Chromium open source project.

01:36:22   So without any of Google's crap in it.

01:36:25   And then, but it's kind of Chrome, but not--

01:36:28   But not quite, though.

01:36:29   That's the thing.

01:36:30   Yeah, well anyway.

01:36:32   So all I do is ad blocker stuff and it's fine.

01:36:36   And really, you know, judgments aside,

01:36:39   I mean I think we're probably past the point

01:36:41   where anybody cares if you're in an ad blocker or not,

01:36:43   but just in case you're not, I mean,

01:36:45   browsing the web is a battle these days.

01:36:48   It's not what it used to be.

01:36:51   It's not like, oh, I'm not supporting, you know,

01:36:54   John Gruber by visiting his site with an ad blocker.

01:36:57   Like, it's not like that anymore.

01:36:58   Now browsing the web, it's literally,

01:37:00   it's like you versus the world.

01:37:02   And the entire web is constantly trying to attack you

01:37:06   at all times and sell all your crap and track all your crap

01:37:10   and burn all your resources.

01:37:11   And it's so incredibly offensive and full of garbage now

01:37:16   that I think, you know, Safari's built-in protection

01:37:21   is very good with the tracking prevention and stuff,

01:37:24   but I think you need to go further in most cases.

01:37:27   And so my default browser in its default state

01:37:30   has fairly aggressive ad blocking settings

01:37:32   and I'm happier for it.

01:37:34   - Yeah, don't blame you.

01:37:35   I run apparently way more than either of you guys,

01:37:38   which is not that many in the grand scheme of things,

01:37:41   but certainly more.

01:37:42   So of course I have one password.

01:37:44   I also have, and I think a lot of these

01:37:46   are actually recommendations from Gruber.

01:37:47   I have Noire, which basically lets you force

01:37:52   a kind of computed dark mode.

01:37:54   I'm a believer that when it's nighttime, you use dark mode,

01:37:56   when it's daytime, you use date.

01:37:58   What is it?

01:37:59   What's light mode, I guess?

01:38:00   - It's called mode.

01:38:01   - It's just mode, mode or dark mode.

01:38:04   So when I'm in dark mode, then Noire will do its best

01:38:09   to try to figure out a dark mode

01:38:12   for whatever I'm looking at, which I quite like.

01:38:15   I run that on pretty much all my devices.

01:38:17   - Does it know when a site has a dark mode?

01:38:19   Does it do the detection and then it leaves it alone?

01:38:21   - Correct, that's correct.

01:38:23   Stop the madness, which basically stops

01:38:27   some really annoying JavaScript stuff.

01:38:29   I mean, it does other things too,

01:38:30   but it stops really annoying JavaScript stuff.

01:38:32   So as an example, there's a service

01:38:35   that Michaela's Preschool uses in order to let the teachers

01:38:40   send like pictures to the class or the parents of the class

01:38:43   and send messages back and forth and stuff.

01:38:46   And when they send pictures to all the parents,

01:38:50   I'd like to save a copy of those pictures,

01:38:52   but the website disables right clicks.

01:38:55   So you'd have to dive into the inspector

01:38:57   and do all this other junk

01:38:58   and it's a real big pain in the butt.

01:39:00   Well, Stop the Madness stops that website

01:39:03   from blocking right clicks.

01:39:04   So it just allows a right click, just like it should.

01:39:07   And it does a bunch of other stuff too.

01:39:09   That's just an illustrative example.

01:39:11   Super Agent for Safari, which is,

01:39:13   I think you mentioned one, John, that does this thing,

01:39:15   Hush, basically just shuts up cookie consent forms

01:39:18   because the EU, well-meaning, often screws things up

01:39:21   for all of us, particularly Americans.

01:39:23   And so that's an example of that.

01:39:25   And then finally, Vinegar, which I really love.

01:39:28   This does an incredibly good job

01:39:30   of replacing the totally proprietary YouTube player

01:39:32   with just a regular HTML video tag,

01:39:35   which among other things makes it super easy

01:39:37   to put it into picture-in-picture mode, which I really dig.

01:39:40   - Does that kill the chapter support though?

01:39:42   - I understand the question.

01:39:45   It might actually.

01:39:46   I never pay close attention to chapters in YouTube.

01:39:49   I think it might kill chapter support.

01:39:52   I'd have to look again though.

01:39:53   I'm not 100% sure.

01:39:54   - As much as I like the idea of those extensions,

01:39:57   and I think I just saw them the other day,

01:39:58   I was like, "Oh, I should get that."

01:39:59   But then I realized like, no,

01:40:00   'cause I watch so much YouTube,

01:40:01   and like as YouTube enhances its, you know,

01:40:04   its HDMI 5 player or whatever,

01:40:06   like it's got its own media player that it built itself.

01:40:10   As it enhances that with features, I like the features.

01:40:12   So they recently added chapter support,

01:40:14   and then they added chapter support to the timeline,

01:40:16   so you could see where the chapters begin,

01:40:17   and then with little breaks in the bar,

01:40:19   and it's, when you watch like, you know,

01:40:21   hour and a half car rebuilding videos.

01:40:23   It's nice to be able to know where the different markers

01:40:26   and chapters are and everything like that.

01:40:27   Or the auto captions that we mentioned earlier

01:40:29   that came however many years ago.

01:40:31   And so yeah, and Apple's native player

01:40:35   doesn't have those features

01:40:36   'cause it doesn't understand YouTube, right?

01:40:38   It just thinks it's a video.

01:40:39   And so I understand the appeal of it,

01:40:41   especially if the YouTube one has poor performance

01:40:44   on your Mac, but I don't run one of those extensions

01:40:47   'cause I want all the neat features that YouTube has.

01:40:49   - Yep, that's fair.

01:40:51   Finally, Brian Hamilton writes, "How do you remember if you've used email Sign In with

01:40:53   Apple, Google, or probably not Facebook when you log into a service?"

01:40:58   For me, I extremely rarely use Sign In with Apple.

01:41:03   I know I've done it, and I can't even think of a good example of one I've used Sign In

01:41:07   with Apple for.

01:41:08   If it's something that I consider to be vaguely ephemeral, like, "Oh, I just want to try something

01:41:12   real quick, and I doubt I will ever spend meaningful time here," then I might use Sign

01:41:16   In with Apple.

01:41:17   I never use Google and I absolutely never use Facebook.

01:41:21   So it's pretty much email password

01:41:25   with a couple of very rare examples.

01:41:28   Marco, how do you handle this,

01:41:29   particularly in this weird new world

01:41:31   where you're constantly switching up your password manager?

01:41:34   (laughing)

01:41:36   - Pretty much the same way you do.

01:41:37   I really don't use anything besides email and password.

01:41:41   If it offers sign in with Apple or Google or Facebook,

01:41:46   I never use any of those options.

01:41:47   If it has an email-based login, I always use that.

01:41:51   - Jon.

01:41:52   - Yeah, that's my instinct as well.

01:41:53   Not that I am against the platform logins,

01:41:55   but when you use a platform login,

01:41:57   you are now tying yourself to that platform.

01:42:00   And all the people who use like, you know,

01:42:02   sign in with Facebook everywhere

01:42:04   and then came to hate Facebook,

01:42:05   now you're kind of in a situation

01:42:07   where you're a little bit stuck

01:42:08   and it's annoying to deal with.

01:42:10   It's not that I think these platforms

01:42:11   are gonna go away or anything

01:42:12   or that I'm gonna lose allegiance to them.

01:42:14   It's just that it's the most flexible to use your own email

01:42:18   address that you control for your sign-in

01:42:20   and not tie it to any other platform.

01:42:22   So that's my default. So I don't have to remember,

01:42:23   because like 99.999% of the time it's email and password.

01:42:28   I do use sign-in with Apple occasionally,

01:42:30   like Casey said, for like essentially throw away stuff,

01:42:32   where this is not important.

01:42:34   It's not even important enough for me to like

01:42:36   generate a password for it.

01:42:38   Or like, it's just like, I just, you know,

01:42:40   I want to try this thing.

01:42:41   And if I'm actually serious about it,

01:42:43   I will then make a real account using whatever,

01:42:46   but it's really nice to be able to use

01:42:47   Sign In With Apple for that.

01:42:48   Obviously I never use Sign In With Facebook or anything.

01:42:51   And even Sign In With Google,

01:42:53   I don't use that either just because I don't,

01:42:55   like Google's got enough information on me,

01:42:57   I don't need even more ties to Google.

01:43:02   The other reason I would say we're from Sign In With Apple

01:43:04   occasionally is because my Apple ID,

01:43:05   or I have multiple Apple IDs,

01:43:07   but my main email address is not any one

01:43:10   of my multiple Apple IDs,

01:43:11   So there is kind of a disconnect there.

01:43:13   And so it would be weird for me to sign in with Apple

01:43:16   using an Apple ID that's an email address

01:43:18   that is different than the email address I use

01:43:20   as my main email address.

01:43:21   So there's a little bit of legacy stuff there.

01:43:23   But yeah, having a default and that default

01:43:26   being email address and password

01:43:28   has served me well over the decades.

01:43:30   And I think I'm gonna be sticking with that.

01:43:32   - Yeah, I mean, this is like, you know,

01:43:33   in all the different online platforms that I've worked on,

01:43:36   you know, the topic often comes up of like,

01:43:38   oh, should we offer sign an option XYZ?

01:43:41   Signing with Apple is obviously the newest one

01:43:43   and when we launched the ATP membership thing

01:43:45   and that whole CMS we talked about,

01:43:48   should we offer Signing with Apple?

01:43:50   Because we're all Appley here,

01:43:51   we have Apple Pay, should we do that?

01:43:53   But the problem is when you offer any of these services,

01:43:56   as long as you have any other thing,

01:44:00   if it's not your only way to log in,

01:44:02   now you're asking people to remember two things.

01:44:04   Now you have to remember which service you logged in with

01:44:07   and then also secondarily, your password or whatever,

01:44:10   if the answer there was email.

01:44:12   And so you think you're making it easier,

01:44:14   if you give people these options of like,

01:44:17   oh you can just breeze right through

01:44:18   with your Facebook or your Google login.

01:44:21   You think you're making something easier for people,

01:44:22   but you're actually causing problems down the road

01:44:25   because when they come back to that in six months or a year,

01:44:28   are they gonna remember which option they picked?

01:44:31   And the answer from support email,

01:44:32   if you ever see one of these, is no they don't.

01:44:35   Because what'll happen is they'll possibly guess wrong

01:44:40   And then they'll say, wait a minute,

01:44:41   I don't have an account here.

01:44:42   Or they'll inadvertently create a new account

01:44:44   and then they'll wonder where all their stuff went.

01:44:47   So there's so many problems

01:44:48   when you have multiple login options.

01:44:51   It's better just to offer one.

01:44:52   And the one that everybody can use is the email and password.

01:44:56   So that's always the best one to do,

01:44:58   even though the other ones offer certain benefits,

01:45:00   I know, I know, but it just causes more problems

01:45:03   and confusion when you're actually doing it.

01:45:05   - If you're a big service,

01:45:07   I think it's a good idea to offer all of them

01:45:09   because you can afford a big support staff

01:45:10   to deal with the uneviled support things,

01:45:12   and especially if you're a free service,

01:45:14   'cause dealing with billing is the worst.

01:45:15   Oh, I created a second account

01:45:16   and now I'm being double-billed,

01:45:18   and those are all the complications.

01:45:20   And you could, if you are a small site,

01:45:22   one thing you can choose,

01:45:23   if it's appropriate for your small site,

01:45:24   is you can just have one thing,

01:45:25   and that one thing could be, say,

01:45:27   signing with Apple, right?

01:45:28   Like, if that's appropriate for your audience,

01:45:30   that would be simplifying,

01:45:31   and it would be a pretty good system.

01:45:33   But most even small sites can't do that

01:45:36   because email is the default.

01:45:38   and it occurred to me like the changes in the environment

01:45:42   of creating accounts on things,

01:45:44   because I've been dealing with lots of accounts

01:45:46   and live stuff lately, and I'm shocked,

01:45:49   I shouldn't be shocked, at these websites

01:45:53   for let's say slower moving industries,

01:45:57   like healthcare and insurance, you know,

01:46:00   and I go to them and I have to set up an account

01:46:04   or whatever, and they want me to pick a username.

01:46:06   I'm like, are you kidding me?

01:46:08   I'm picking a username in 2022.

01:46:10   And of course, Syracuse is taken, Jay Syracuse is taken.

01:46:14   You just go there, not only you're making me pick a username

01:46:17   but also still all the good usernames are taken.

01:46:20   It's like, I don't, that used to be the problem

01:46:22   for kids who don't remember.

01:46:24   Every website you had an account on,

01:46:26   they made you make a username

01:46:27   and you had to remember what the username was.

01:46:30   And if you're lucky on website,

01:46:32   you got J Smith or whatever, or you got Smith on a website.

01:46:34   And the other one you had to be Smith123, right?

01:46:37   And then other people were just like,

01:46:39   shiny diamond 97854 go bulls, right?

01:46:45   But they were that everywhere.

01:46:46   Because the username would be the same everywhere.

01:46:48   It was so hard to remember.

01:46:50   If you can't remember, what was my,

01:46:51   you wouldn't even remember your username.

01:46:53   And then those sites had to implement flows

01:46:55   that were like, forgot my password,

01:46:58   but also forgot my username was a flow they had to support.

01:47:01   This was the bad old days of the web

01:47:03   before everyone finally decided.

01:47:05   First they had this medium, bad old days

01:47:07   where they decided, oh, your username is your email address.

01:47:10   It's like, please stop, you're confusing people.

01:47:12   Email address, password, and we all figured that out.

01:47:15   I don't know how many decades ago,

01:47:16   except for healthcare, insurance,

01:47:18   and other backwards facing industries,

01:47:20   like, come on, don't make me,

01:47:22   and they make you enter your email address anyway,

01:47:24   but they make you pick a username.

01:47:26   And so the real question should be,

01:47:28   how do you remember your username on sites

01:47:30   that still remember your username?

01:47:31   And the answer is it's in Keychain, I really hope,

01:47:33   because otherwise I have no freaking idea what it is.

01:47:37   - Comically, I was not the person who put this

01:47:38   in the show notes, I don't think,

01:47:40   but Ashley Bischoff wrote,

01:47:41   "When I've used a platform-level login,

01:47:44   "the approach that I take is to create a stub entry

01:47:47   "within one password, just to let future me know."

01:47:50   That's a very good idea.

01:47:51   - Oh yeah, that's a good idea. - I take that.

01:47:52   - Yeah, I do that occasionally too,

01:47:53   of entering a secure note in iCloud Keychain or whatever,

01:47:57   saying, "Just remember, for this stupid website,

01:47:59   "here's a bunch of information about it."

01:48:00   And so when I, in desperation, try to search for something

01:48:04   later in Keychain, I will find that.

01:48:06   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:48:08   Trade Coffee, Linode, and Squarespace.

01:48:11   Thanks for our members who support us directly.

01:48:12   You can join atp.fm/join.

01:48:15   And we will talk to you next week.

01:48:18   (upbeat music)

01:48:21   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:48:23   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:48:25   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:48:27   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:48:28   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:48:30   John didn't do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn't let him

01:48:36   'Cause it was accidental, it was accidental

01:48:41   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:48:46   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:48:51   [music]

01:49:20   That was another one of those episodes where I laid a little trap for people.

01:49:23   If you sent an email or a tweet during the episode telling me that NASA didn't really

01:49:28   invent Velcro or microwave oven, you can resend that email.

01:49:33   If you use the undo feature in Gmail, maybe you see if you can pull that one back, because

01:49:37   yes, technically those things were invented either outside of NASA or maybe sometimes

01:49:42   decades earlier, but NASA did use them in its space flight work, and that helped advance

01:49:48   It's the technology to the point where it was easier to commercialize, whether it is

01:49:51   the government paying Raytheon to make something or somebody making something in some other

01:49:54   country and then NASA adopting it, you know, whatever.

01:49:58   So yes, I do know that we don't need that follow-up for next week.

01:50:02   It's real-time follow-up in the program with a little nerd snipe trap.

01:50:07   Someone says, "NASA didn't invent the microwave.

01:50:09   I'm going to write it into ATP and tell them this."

01:50:11   We know it's just, you know, kind of simplifying for the sake of the story.

01:50:15   I wasn't wrong.

01:50:16   You were wrong.

01:50:17   No, it's just that it's about it's about a nuance and a detail that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things and the

01:50:22   Main point was like hey putting money into NASA made it so that

01:50:26   Microwave ovens could be in our houses sooner and better and that is true

01:50:29   And that was the point not that oh, but NASA didn't invent the microwave

01:50:33   No

01:50:33   But if we didn't put money into NASA and having microwaves on skylab or whatever

01:50:37   It would have taken much longer for the microwave to appear in people's kitchens

01:50:40   Also, please feel free not to email an apology about falling into the trap. Just let it go. It's not really a trap

01:50:46   Well, just saying that's not what nerd sniping is either by the way

01:50:49   Nerd sniping is when you pose a problem and then you get people are so excited to solve the problem that they solve it for you

01:50:54   So it's a slightly different thing. That is also true. We're talking about your fiber trunk

01:50:57   Do we really want to go there? I'm gonna get so much email. Alright, so I was thinking which is dangerous

01:51:04   It I wonder if

01:51:09   doing some sort of

01:51:13   hybrid approach where some but not all or maybe all of my maybe forthcoming Ethernet

01:51:20   Situation should be fiber now before you jump all over me. Let me let me let me make an opening statement

01:51:27   I

01:51:29   Recognize that this is probably overkill. I see that I

01:51:34   Understand that and yet I'm going to potentially march forward anyway

01:51:38   Because it intrigues me because I think it's interesting because it's something to learn because I know very little about it

01:51:43   And because I'm telling myself, perhaps wrongly,

01:51:47   that this may help future-proof things even more.

01:51:52   So maybe. - What future?

01:51:54   Tell me of this future.

01:51:55   - A future where maybe I want more

01:51:57   than 10 gigabit ethernet.

01:51:59   Maybe I want-- - I think ethernet goes up to,

01:52:02   what's the fastest ethernet over copper?

01:52:04   Someone looked at some. - I honestly don't know.

01:52:05   - I think it's 10 gig.

01:52:07   - See, I thought it was 10. - You sure?

01:52:08   Thought 40 you could do over copper, let me see.

01:52:11   Maybe. - I don't know.

01:52:12   But my thought was, it seems to me, and here again, maybe my fundamentals are all wrong here,

01:52:19   but it seems to me that fiber seems to be the most likely physical medium,

01:52:30   even though it's not really a physical medium, but you know what I mean,

01:52:32   to last the longest and be able to be current, because it's just a tube with light in it,

01:52:40   and then I can change the ends,

01:52:42   or I can change what that light tube is plugged into

01:52:45   to make it better and faster and stronger and so on.

01:52:47   Maybe that's not how it works, but that's my assumption.

01:52:49   - How is it not physical?

01:52:50   You said it was not physical.

01:52:51   - Well, I mean, it's just, it's not like wires or anything.

01:52:54   It's just an empty tube with light going through it, right?

01:52:57   I mean, isn't that-- - That's a wire kind of.

01:52:58   Anyway, all right.

01:52:59   (laughs)

01:53:00   But here's the thing, though.

01:53:01   What you're proposing is,

01:53:02   I'm gonna have like fiber on a trunk

01:53:04   and then it will branch out to be regular,

01:53:06   like copper-ethereate, is that what you're saying?

01:53:07   - Well, okay, so hold on.

01:53:08   So I've got a couple of different things

01:53:09   around in my head. So the hybrid approach is exactly that. So if we take the garage to be

01:53:15   the new hub of the network, which it is not today, but if it would be, then maybe what I do is I go

01:53:21   fiber into the attic and fiber into the crawl space, you know, maybe even at 10 gigabit. And

01:53:28   then if I spider many single gigabit lines off of that 10 gigabit trunk, then I have got oodles and

01:53:36   the noodles of bandwidth and it should be pretty much future proof, right? Because...

01:53:42   It's present proof. You presently can't use it. Or do it.

01:53:45   Yes and no. I mean, I can't use... I wouldn't use 10 gigabit on any individual device, but

01:53:53   having the trunk at 10 gigabit seems like it may not be a terrible idea. And then, so

01:53:58   yeah, so I would go into the attic, into the crawlspace with fiber, potentially, have,

01:54:02   like a small fiber to ethernet hub, or switch I should say,

01:54:05   in either of those locations,

01:54:07   and then spider off of that switch into whatever rooms

01:54:11   I think is pertinent to receive an ethernet connection.

01:54:15   - But you can do 10 gig with a copper trunk.

01:54:17   Like why does fiber have to enter this?

01:54:18   - Because what if I want more than 10 gig?

01:54:20   Because what if-- - Can you use front two?

01:54:22   I mean, like-- - Well, fair.

01:54:24   - The amount of effort and cost and error proneness

01:54:29   and fragility-- - And debugging,

01:54:31   like trying to debug your copper to optical transition

01:54:35   at all the various points.

01:54:36   Like I can imagine you doing this big expensive thing

01:54:38   and then getting worse than one gigabit

01:54:39   because of some weird thing you've never encountered before

01:54:42   because you don't know how to set a fiber in.

01:54:44   Neither does anybody you know

01:54:45   'cause like it's not a thing for people's homes.

01:54:47   - Well, and that's fair,

01:54:49   but it also comes with,

01:54:51   it comes with some potentially reduced complexity

01:54:54   and it's certainly also increased complexity.

01:54:56   So I'm trading complexities, I guess, in the end.

01:54:59   But it also may be considerably cheaper,

01:55:02   well maybe not considerably cheaper,

01:55:03   but cheaper or equivalent money.

01:55:05   Because if you think about it,

01:55:07   I'm in for, and there's debate over whether or not

01:55:10   I should use the path I wanna use to get into the attic.

01:55:13   But if I commit to doing that, it seems clear to me

01:55:17   that the most prudent thing to do

01:55:19   is to use plenum-rated Cat 6a,

01:55:23   which as we discussed I think last episode,

01:55:26   is it seems like the best happy medium,

01:55:30   and it is not cheap to get,

01:55:32   I forget if I can get 500 feet or 1,000 feet of it,

01:55:34   but it's like $300 or $400 just for the cable.

01:55:38   - But the wire is not the major cost center here.

01:55:41   Yeah, maybe the fiber wire would be cheaper,

01:55:44   but the things you plug the fiber wires into

01:55:46   are not going to be cheaper.

01:55:47   - Well, why do you say that?

01:55:49   Because like I found--

01:55:50   - Because the only people who buy there

01:55:50   are people who do stuff in data centers,

01:55:52   and they charge a lot of money for that stuff.

01:55:54   So there is, I'm gonna get the details wrong

01:55:56   'cause I don't have it pulled up in front of me,

01:55:58   but I've been looking into this quite a bit.

01:55:59   And the switch that I would use to go from optical,

01:56:04   from fiber to ethernet is like 120 bucks.

01:56:06   And I would need potentially two of them.

01:56:08   And then somebody also, I didn't mention actually,

01:56:11   somebody who has a listener, very kind listener

01:56:13   whose name I don't have in front of me,

01:56:15   has offered to send me for the cost of shipping

01:56:18   an old Hewlett Packard switch that they have,

01:56:21   like a rack mount switch that they have,

01:56:23   that has something like five or 10 fiber connections

01:56:26   and then a whole buttload of ethernet connections.

01:56:29   So I could get that for almost no money.

01:56:30   I can get a couple of the switches,

01:56:32   one for the attic, one for the crawl space

01:56:34   for a couple hundred bucks total.

01:56:37   And I'm still probably, at this point,

01:56:40   I've spent not that much money

01:56:42   and it wouldn't be that different necessarily than,

01:56:45   I guess it's a little bit more than getting ethernet,

01:56:48   but it's not that much more.

01:56:50   - Buying an eight port ethernet switch

01:56:51   does not cost a hundred dollars.

01:56:53   That's true, but I would need something

01:56:57   for the command center in the garage.

01:56:58   And I would probably want something

01:57:01   that is bigger than this unremarkable 16 port switch

01:57:05   I have in the office right now.

01:57:06   I mean, I guess I could continue to use this,

01:57:08   but I want something like rack-mounted, for example.

01:57:10   And so, and additionally,

01:57:12   one of the things that also appeals to me about fiber

01:57:14   is that I wouldn't be terminating anything,

01:57:16   'cause that's a recipe for disaster.

01:57:17   So I would just get the,

01:57:20   I would measure and get the appropriate sized fiber,

01:57:23   and that would be that.

01:57:24   I'm not gonna be doing any of my own crimping

01:57:26   or terminating or anything like that.

01:57:28   - You can do that with ethernet cables though,

01:57:30   much more cheaply and easily.

01:57:32   - Well, but can you get like 300 foot ethernet cables?

01:57:35   - Yeah. - Not 300,

01:57:36   but like 100 or 200.

01:57:38   - I've got 100 foot one,

01:57:39   so I know you can do that at least.

01:57:41   - No, fair, maybe I should look into that a little more.

01:57:43   But, and the other thing that scares me a little bit

01:57:46   is that I've heard several people say to me like,

01:57:49   "Oh, Cat 6A is the worst."

01:57:51   not as bad as seven, but it's almost as bad as seven, it's so difficult, it's so bad.

01:57:56   Yeah, exactly right. So I feel like honestly the right-est answer, and maybe

01:58:04   that's what I'm really backing myself into, is just not touch anything. Like why

01:58:07   fix what ain't broken, just figure out a new outlet for this information,

01:58:10   for this nervous energy. But I don't know, it just it seems like fiber is not that

01:58:18   unapproachable these days either financially or from just a regular

01:58:22   shmo. I don't think it's necessary but I don't think it's that unapproachable and

01:58:26   and potentially you know I don't think if especially if I go a hybrid route

01:58:32   like I don't think it would be that many fiber runs like it would be one to the

01:58:38   attic one to the crawlspace maybe maybe I could go into like the office in the

01:58:44   future office with additional runs maybe but that wouldn't be absolutely

01:58:47   necessary so I don't know I feel like there's there's nothing that is clear to

01:58:54   me that makes it utterly an utterly terrible idea other than not a lot of

01:58:58   people have done it yet do you have two devices that would be on wired Ethernet

01:59:02   they could take advantage of your greater than one gigabit per second trunk

01:59:06   like they communicate with each other you know what I mean like are you doing

01:59:10   a file transfer from a plugged in Ethernet Mac to a plugged in Ethernet

01:59:13   device somewhere else in the house yeah from this is from the Mac to the

01:59:16   - They're not using the Synology constantly, or vice versa.

01:59:18   - Isn't the Synology and the Mac in the same room?

01:59:20   - Well, right now they are, but hopefully they wouldn't be.

01:59:22   Hopefully, the Synology would be potentially in the garage.

01:59:26   - But that's just two devices, so you're still,

01:59:28   say you're maxing out one gigabit, so fine,

01:59:30   but now you need something else that also wants

01:59:33   to do a gigabit over the trunk between it

01:59:35   and some other device for you to need more

01:59:37   than a gigabit on your trunk, right?

01:59:39   - Potentially, yeah, and no, to answer your question,

01:59:42   I don't think I have that, not today.

01:59:44   - I don't think you have enough wired devices.

01:59:46   Like everyone else is going to be sipping through the Wi-Fi straw to get to that.

01:59:48   Well, I have enough.

01:59:50   I have enough wired devices for sure.

01:59:51   I mean, I have a Mac Mini, but wired devices that need to talk to each other over a gigabit.

01:59:55   I mean, you're watching video from this analogy.

01:59:57   It's like 10 gigabits.

01:59:58   It's not, you know, 10 megabits rather.

02:00:00   It's not like 100 gigabits or one gigabit.

02:00:03   Sorry, I'm getting my gigs in.

02:00:04   You know what I mean? Yeah.

02:00:06   But like it's surprisingly difficult unless you're doing literal file transfers to saturate

02:00:11   a one gigabit trunk in your house, unless you actually have a lot of devices that are on

02:00:15   wired ethernet or on very fast Wi-Fi that need to do these big transfers to each other

02:00:20   at the same time and are running the traffic jams.

02:00:22   And to Marco's point, if that's really the case, run three more ethernet cables.

02:00:27   And now you've solved that problem, right?

02:00:28   Because then they can have their own dedicated cables going to wherever they want to go.

02:00:32   Yeah.

02:00:33   I mean, the more you waffle about this, the more you waffle about things like the cost

02:00:38   of a spool of cable, the more I think the better approach here is to just buy some premade

02:00:43   cables that are the right lengths and just shove them through the walls as whatever way

02:00:46   you can and just call it a day.

02:00:49   Well, and to be clear, it's not that I necessarily have a problem with like, you know, using

02:00:55   Keystone jacks or anything or crimping if the need arises, although it sounds like it

02:00:59   probably wouldn't if I went the if I went the pure Ethernet route. It's not that I'm

02:01:04   trying to avoid the work of it. It's just I don't I need in part of the thing is I tried

02:01:10   to make time to do this tonight or earlier today and I just didn't have the

02:01:13   time to do it but I need to properly sit down so to speak and figure out okay how

02:01:17   much cable do I really need because I have this vision that I need like a

02:01:20   couple hundred feet of Ethernet cable and it may be that I need you know in

02:01:24   900 feet or something like I doubt it but you never know like maybe I need 900

02:01:28   feet and a thousand foot spool wouldn't be so bad but I have this gut feeling

02:01:32   that I need many many hundreds of feet less than a thousand and probably and so

02:01:36   And so it seems silly to me to buy a thousand foot spool,

02:01:41   which is almost the only thing I can find.

02:01:44   - Do not buy a thousand foot spool.

02:01:46   Where do you think you live?

02:01:47   - No, that's what I'm saying.

02:01:48   - Do the actual measurements.

02:01:49   Do it like the actual route the wires would take.

02:01:51   It's way fewer feet than you think it is.

02:01:53   - We agree, and that's why I think I need to stop

02:01:58   hand-waving and start actually putting numbers down.

02:02:01   I started to do this a little bit,

02:02:02   but I haven't done it properly.

02:02:04   But the other thing to think about, though,

02:02:06   is again, if I'm petulantly insisting on plenum-rated cable

02:02:09   for better or worse, I mean, I don't think it's for worse,

02:02:12   but if I'm petulantly insisting on plenum-rated cable,

02:02:14   it's a taller order to find Cat6a plenum-rated

02:02:18   at exactly 100 feet, you know, already pre-cooked,

02:02:20   if you will, than it is just riser-rated Cat6a,

02:02:23   which is what everyone else in the entire world wants.

02:02:26   - Have you considered the fact that perhaps

02:02:29   researching this project is in fact the project

02:02:32   that keeps you busy? - Call me Merlin.

02:02:34   Like you just wanted to find something to keep you busy.

02:02:36   You don't actually, and this will make Aaron happy,

02:02:39   you don't actually have to do anything to your house.

02:02:41   Your hobby could simply be exhaustively researching

02:02:44   and modeling a potential house spanning fiber optic network.

02:02:48   You can get a 3D program and make CAD files

02:02:51   and really model it out and do a fly through.

02:02:53   We could fly through the plenum

02:02:55   and watch the plenum rating table and everything.

02:02:57   - Modeling you say, I'm putting something in Slack right now.

02:03:00   - This is a thing to do.

02:03:02   - Yeah, yeah, so I did this earlier today,

02:03:05   I think it was, I put this in Slack.

02:03:06   I don't have it easily accessible for the live people,

02:03:08   I'm sorry, but I used Monodraw to diagram out.

02:03:11   This is not the hybrid approach,

02:03:13   this would be the full fiber approach,

02:03:14   but I diagrammed this out for myself.

02:03:16   - See, I think this is the project.

02:03:19   You are succeeding in finding something to occupy your time.

02:03:22   It's just that the project isn't what you thought it was.

02:03:24   You thought the project was wire my house for ethernet.

02:03:26   The project is really plan to wire my house for ethernet.

02:03:29   Why don't you make a new iOS app full of emoji and lots of text that's all about letting

02:03:34   people plan out their network upgrades for their house?

02:03:37   [BEEPING]