482: I Should Probably Get Reading Glasses


00:00:00   So how is the honey do list?

00:00:02   Be it self-imposed or otherwise?

00:00:04   - Still working on it.

00:00:05   These things take so much longer than you think.

00:00:07   Oh, and I mean, we talked about this in,

00:00:10   did we talk about this in Slack?

00:00:11   Anyway, pre-show, COVID has visited my family.

00:00:16   - I did, I wanted to ask of what the status was,

00:00:18   and I meant to do it during the pre-flight and I forgot,

00:00:20   and then I took a mental note to ask you

00:00:22   after the show was over.

00:00:23   So now that you've brought it up, how's everyone doing?

00:00:26   - Yeah, well, I mean, everyone's fine.

00:00:28   Like not a big deal, we're all vaccinated and boosted

00:00:31   and stuff like that, but we did have positive tests

00:00:34   and so far the rest of us are negative

00:00:36   and we're hanging in there.

00:00:37   But what this does relevant to your question,

00:00:40   all the things that we had like appointments to do,

00:00:42   like see people or like sign documents

00:00:44   or get things set up or whatever,

00:00:46   now it just gets pushed out.

00:00:48   'Cause we're not gonna go anywhere or do anything.

00:00:51   Again, even though most of us are fine.

00:00:54   And of course we're taking tests every single day.

00:00:56   So my streak of never,

00:00:57   not only not getting COVID as far as I know,

00:00:59   but also not taking a test that has ended

00:01:01   and now the entire family is testing every single day.

00:01:03   Good thing we have a pretty big backlog of tests.

00:01:07   Testing is not fun.

00:01:08   It makes my eyes tear a lot.

00:01:10   - Yes.

00:01:11   - But yeah, that's what we're doing.

00:01:12   And so, yeah, that's totally screwed up my list of items.

00:01:16   So things that I thought I was gonna finally

00:01:18   be able to check off,

00:01:19   'cause again, I only check them off list

00:01:20   when they're actually done done.

00:01:22   I did check off the car thing.

00:01:23   Like I said, last time the car is fixed,

00:01:26   You know, although, did I mention on the show

00:01:29   that they tried to clean the interior?

00:01:31   - Yeah, with Armor All. - I don't know if you

00:01:32   mentioned on the show, but you definitely told us.

00:01:33   - Yeah, I don't know if it was Armor All.

00:01:34   I don't wanna throw that brand under the bus,

00:01:36   but the garage is trying to be nice,

00:01:37   the body shop's trying to be nice,

00:01:38   like, oh, we'll clean your car for you,

00:01:40   and they vacuumed it and they washed it

00:01:41   and they tried to clean the interior.

00:01:43   And I'm just one of those people who does not approve

00:01:46   of the various, let's say, greasy protectants

00:01:51   that are often used on the interior of cars.

00:01:54   Do not approve of them. - I'm so surprised.

00:01:56   - I'm so surprised you have an opinion about this.

00:01:57   - Yeah, so they did that

00:01:59   and I spent a while cleaning that off.

00:02:00   But the main problem of course,

00:02:01   as anyone who's ever gotten body work done

00:02:03   is that it smells like drying paint

00:02:05   because they've repainted the thing

00:02:07   and you just deal with that

00:02:09   and eventually the volatile compounds dissipate

00:02:11   or react with the air and you don't smell it anymore.

00:02:13   But anyway, that did get checked off the list.

00:02:16   But that remember wasn't on the to-do list

00:02:18   until something happened to the car.

00:02:20   That was a fun incidental item.

00:02:22   - Of the items, of the big items that were there,

00:02:25   you know, like, I think they're all basically still there.

00:02:28   They're just, many new items have been added.

00:02:32   It's just, yeah.

00:02:34   The list is getting longer and not shorter.

00:02:36   - That's what happens.

00:02:38   Casey and I have been unemployed for longer than you,

00:02:40   and you'll notice that we are not like,

00:02:43   we don't have tons and tons of free time, right?

00:02:45   - Indeed.

00:02:46   - Like, stuff come, like, your time gets filled.

00:02:49   It's like hardware space, like, it gets filled.

00:02:50   Like, you think you're gonna have all this time,

00:02:53   and then it gets filled up with stuff,

00:02:55   and you're like, wait a minute,

00:02:56   the whole rest of my life before this point,

00:02:58   I was working all day at,

00:02:59   where did that eight hour block go in my current schedule?

00:03:03   And yeah, it gets consumed.

00:03:05   - Oh, I know where it goes.

00:03:06   I mean, the problem, I really do think

00:03:08   I will shrink this backlog,

00:03:09   but the problem was before I would just neglect

00:03:11   all these things, they were just all being neglected.

00:03:12   So it was no question to me, like, where'd the time go?

00:03:14   I just didn't do any of these things.

00:03:15   They weren't even on the to-do list anymore,

00:03:17   'cause it's like, well, I don't have time

00:03:18   to deal with that right now.

00:03:19   I'll deal with that at some point in the future.

00:03:21   Well, now at some point in the future.

00:03:23   - All right, so let's do some follow up.

00:03:26   And we had a person write in by the name of Kyle,

00:03:29   and Kyle wrote, all right, I'm gonna really try hard.

00:03:32   I really am not trying to be sarcastic.

00:03:34   I'm really gonna try hard,

00:03:35   and I'm probably gonna screw this up, and I'm gonna try.

00:03:36   Okay, so Kyle wrote in about Bartosz Chihinowski.

00:03:40   Kyle wrote, "I happen to work with Bartosz,"

00:03:42   and yes, that's the same Bartosz,

00:03:44   who makes the delightful articles explaining how things work.

00:03:46   His most recently mentioned article

00:03:47   mechanical watch explainer. In addition to making these excellent guides, he's one of the best

00:03:51   software engineers I've ever worked with. I do have a little more to add about this, but Marco,

00:03:54   you were saying to us privately in the pre-flight that you had some thoughts about the mechanical

00:03:58   watch explainer. Yeah, I hadn't actually gone through it like in the last show, and I have

00:04:02   since, and you know, I'm a watch nerd, and when, you know, when everyone was saying, "Look, here's

00:04:08   a guide on how a mechanical watch works," I figured it would just be like, you know, the time hands.

00:04:13   here's an escapement and a mainspring

00:04:16   and a few gears in the middle and that's it.

00:04:18   And that would have been great just by itself.

00:04:21   This was, I kept going down and I kept seeing

00:04:24   the scroll bar is not reaching the bottom portion

00:04:27   of the screen here. (laughing)

00:04:28   There's a lot more to go.

00:04:29   And then Bartosz would go and explain,

00:04:32   and then what if we wanted to show the date?

00:04:34   And I'm like, really, he's gonna do a date movement on here?

00:04:37   And then I keep going, he added quicksetting to the date?

00:04:41   And then eventually I'm like, he's gonna do automatic.

00:04:44   Sure enough, the automatic rotor comes up,

00:04:46   it's a bi-directional winding automatic motor

00:04:49   of which not all watches are that,

00:04:51   not all watches have dates,

00:04:52   not all watches that have dates have quick setting

00:04:55   mechanisms to jump quickly between them

00:04:57   with a three position crown.

00:04:58   That's not, not every watch has it.

00:05:00   You have to go pretty, you know,

00:05:02   many hundreds of dollars at least before you get one

00:05:05   that has these kind of features,

00:05:06   and usually more than that.

00:05:08   And then at the end I'm like,

00:05:09   Then he throws in hacking seconds,

00:05:11   like where you pull the crown and it stops the time.

00:05:13   Oh my God.

00:05:14   Like these are features like,

00:05:16   I've bought watches before that don't have these features,

00:05:18   like for major brands.

00:05:19   (laughs)

00:05:20   So to have all of that in the basic explainer,

00:05:23   to have an automatic hacking seconds,

00:05:26   quick set date movement,

00:05:28   like that's what he's explaining.

00:05:29   That was quite impressive on so many levels.

00:05:31   So that was delightful and I'm very, very glad.

00:05:33   And there was a lot of stuff in there I didn't know.

00:05:35   You know, like stuff that like,

00:05:36   you know, I knew that watches did this,

00:05:38   but I didn't know how they accomplished that exactly.

00:05:41   And so it was really cool to go through all that.

00:05:44   - Yeah, and the entire internet is on my poo-poo list,

00:05:47   on my naughty list, because unbeknownst to me,

00:05:49   until I think when I was clicking around

00:05:51   while we were recording or maybe after the show,

00:05:53   there are a bunch of other articles

00:05:55   that I'm deeply interested in

00:05:56   and I haven't had a chance to read yet,

00:05:57   but more importantly, nobody told me,

00:06:00   where were all of you?

00:06:01   Nobody told me that Bartosz has GPS,

00:06:04   has curves and surfaces, naval architecture.

00:06:06   The one I did know about was the internal combustion engine, which I cannot say enough good things about.

00:06:10   It's amazing.

00:06:11   Cameras and lenses, lights and shadows, gears in general, and a bunch of other stuff.

00:06:16   Like, this is a treasure.

00:06:18   And I was happy to discover, and in the least slimy way possible, you know, if you look at his website on the header at the top,

00:06:27   you see, you know, RSS, email, Instagram, Twitter, and then, oh wait, that's the Patreon P, isn't it?

00:06:34   So you bet your ass I decided to be a patron.

00:06:37   And so you should do that too.

00:06:39   There's three membership levels,

00:06:41   and you get to see Bartosz who put up posts

00:06:44   about how the posts that he made on his website were made.

00:06:49   And I was saying to the guys before

00:06:52   that we started recording,

00:06:53   the post for the Mechanical Watch one

00:06:56   is a screenshot of all the CAD drawings and CAD work

00:07:00   that Bartosz had to do in order to make this article.

00:07:02   and it is freaking nuts.

00:07:05   So you should definitely be a patron,

00:07:08   you should check this junk out, because it is delightful.

00:07:10   So we will put links in the show notes

00:07:12   to all of these things, you should definitely,

00:07:14   definitely give it a whirl.

00:07:15   And in the unlikely event that Bartosz is listening,

00:07:18   I am so sorry that I butchered your name 85 times,

00:07:19   but hand to God, I've really been trying

00:07:21   really, really hard, so my apologies.

00:07:23   - Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that,

00:07:25   the internet used to have a lot more stuff

00:07:28   that was really good. - Yes, yes.

00:07:29   and kind of just, and good in an uncomplicated way.

00:07:34   This is just really good, and there's no ulterior motives,

00:07:37   there's no like, you know, ads plastered all over the thing,

00:07:40   unless my ad blocker blocked them, I don't know,

00:07:41   but probably not, there's no like, you know,

00:07:44   actually this is a wiki how, and we're gonna try to,

00:07:46   you know, like there's nothing like,

00:07:47   it's just a person who is an expert in something

00:07:50   making a really great thing and just putting it out there

00:07:53   for the world for free, that's amazing.

00:07:55   And again, there used to be so much more of that

00:07:57   on the internet and these days that stuff seems to be

00:08:00   not only produced less but harder to find.

00:08:04   And so this is just a gem to find

00:08:05   and this just made me so happy.

00:08:07   - Yep, and I mean like I said, the Patreon wasn't like,

00:08:10   hey, you know, smash that,

00:08:11   I know this is a Patreon, not YouTube,

00:08:13   but there was no equivalent of like smash that bell

00:08:15   or anything like that. - Hey guys.

00:08:16   - Yeah, hey guys.

00:08:17   Like there was nothing,

00:08:18   the only reason I knew that there was a Patreon

00:08:20   was 'cause I happened to realize that that little P

00:08:22   up in the upper right hand corner is the Patreon logo.

00:08:25   That was the only mention I saw of Patreon

00:08:27   was the little logo.

00:08:28   Like, there was no, like, HP.fm/join or anything like that.

00:08:32   It was just a little teeny tiny logo in the corner.

00:08:34   So, well done, just five stars, six stars,

00:08:37   if such a thing is possible.

00:08:39   John, tell us about the Apple Developer Center,

00:08:41   if you please.

00:08:42   - Yeah, they're pronouncing new words.

00:08:43   So Gruber had a post about some information

00:08:46   about the Apple Developer Center or some rumors about it.

00:08:49   Is the Apple Developer Center Tan Tau 14?

00:08:52   What's Tan Tau?

00:08:53   Is that like Tan Tan from the Flop House?

00:08:55   No, it's not.

00:08:56   It's the road that goes along one side of Apple Park,

00:08:58   apparently.

00:08:59   And the rumor speculation is that Building 14 on that road--

00:09:05   what is it, Tantal Avenue?

00:09:07   Something like that, yeah.

00:09:08   --is, in fact, the developer center.

00:09:11   And as Gruber said, I'm sure we'll find out later

00:09:13   what the deal is.

00:09:14   But based on tips, he thinks it's Tantal 14 next

00:09:17   to the visitor center, which makes a lot of sense.

00:09:19   So Parker Orterland, he had a post

00:09:23   showing a map of where this stuff is

00:09:25   and some more information about it.

00:09:26   So if you look at the map, it's got the Steve Jobs Theater,

00:09:29   which is this little circular thing that's on Apple Park.

00:09:31   And if you basically go straight across the street,

00:09:33   straight across Tan Tao Avenue from Steve Jobs Theater,

00:09:36   there's a big, long, skinny building that's Tan Tao 14.

00:09:39   The theory is that is the building

00:09:40   that is going to be the new developer center.

00:09:43   And then next door to that

00:09:45   is the existing Apple Park Visitor Center,

00:09:47   which is a smaller, rectangular building.

00:09:51   And this makes some sense.

00:09:53   If you look at it, this gets into the idea

00:09:55   of like, Apple is inviting people to Apple Park.

00:09:58   If you think Apple Park is just the ring,

00:10:02   the big ring-shaped building,

00:10:04   and the land that is around that,

00:10:07   maybe that is too narrow of a definition,

00:10:10   because by that definition, the Apple Park Visitor Center

00:10:13   is not in fact in Apple Park,

00:10:14   it is across the street from that.

00:10:16   Same thing with this Building 14,

00:10:19   is also quote-unquote not in Apple Park,

00:10:22   but I think it's all kind of part of the same campus.

00:10:25   The theory of this building is that it will be,

00:10:28   this is the developer center that is a fancy new building.

00:10:31   It will be where the Apple developer,

00:10:33   like evangelist people work,

00:10:35   like their actual office building.

00:10:36   And it will also be where they would bring developers in

00:10:39   to do whatever it is that they do with them

00:10:41   in the developer center.

00:10:43   So we'll see if the speculation proves correct.

00:10:46   - Yeah, and we got, I mean, we didn't just get a birdie.

00:10:49   We got like a flock of seagulls telling us this.

00:10:52   It seems like this is pretty well supported.

00:10:55   - That's before your time, right?

00:10:56   - The band, yes.

00:10:57   - You might've heard it in the play pop hits of the '80s.

00:11:02   - There you go, there you go.

00:11:03   - I tell you what, man, so we're in the,

00:11:05   we just crossed over 1970,

00:11:06   and the rock hits go through of this, it's so much better.

00:11:11   (laughing)

00:11:12   - It's interesting what like, what are the rock,

00:11:14   like where does that pull from?

00:11:16   - I don't know, I mean, they're Apple Music playlists,

00:11:18   so somebody curated these lists at some point, I don't know.

00:11:22   But anyway, the rock version is really good.

00:11:24   We're significantly better for our tastes

00:11:26   than the pop version, which given that we've always liked

00:11:29   rock music, that's not that big of a surprise.

00:11:31   - There's a question, in the run throughs you did

00:11:33   the pop hits and now you're doing the rock hits.

00:11:35   I'm assuming fish does not appear anywhere on any of these.

00:11:39   - I don't know, I mean, I think the only place

00:11:41   they would potentially appear is when Farmhouse

00:11:43   was on the radio, I think in the late 90s for a brief time.

00:11:47   And that certainly would not have shown up on the pop list,

00:11:49   but maybe it might be on the rock list.

00:11:51   But I don't think it's--

00:11:52   - You can try the "alternative list,"

00:11:55   a category of music that didn't exist until the '90s,

00:12:00   alternative hits of 1955.

00:12:03   - Well, rock didn't exist until '65.

00:12:06   - I'm assuming that's when it starts then, right?

00:12:08   - Yeah, there is no after music rock hits 1964 or earlier.

00:12:13   So from '55 to '64, we just did pop hits again,

00:12:18   but this time doing it the right way

00:12:19   instead of asking Siri to play whatever

00:12:21   and a half her walk away after a few minutes.

00:12:23   But yeah, this time was just play the pop hits playlist

00:12:26   from those years, which were actually pretty decent.

00:12:30   The only weird thing about them is that,

00:12:32   you know, you play the pop hits of the mid to late 60s

00:12:35   and what you really should be hearing

00:12:38   is a heck of a lot of Beatles and Rolling Stones

00:12:42   later on like Zeppelin.

00:12:43   But the people who make these lists,

00:12:45   they don't wanna put like six Beatles songs in a row.

00:12:47   And the list is pretty long for each day.

00:12:50   It's 20, 30 songs at least.

00:12:52   It's like an hour's long, I think.

00:12:54   And so you end up missing a lot of significant hits,

00:12:59   not because they weren't ranked high in the charts,

00:13:02   but because they were spread out by a human

00:13:04   on this playlist so you didn't hear too much

00:13:06   of the same band in a row.

00:13:08   That's the only downside of this approach.

00:13:09   So otherwise, it's not, you know,

00:13:12   I have no other faults with the exception

00:13:14   that my home pods keep dying.

00:13:15   - Oh, well, well.

00:13:17   They just ran, Marco.

00:13:18   They ran so far away.

00:13:19   They're so dying.

00:13:21   I'm still holding on, but this is,

00:13:25   I mean, my holding onto these,

00:13:27   this is worse than Casey's iMac at this point.

00:13:29   Like, it's just, they're rebooting every day.

00:13:31   Like, it's just, they're in bad shape.

00:13:34   I really should replace them,

00:13:35   but I just, I can't make myself do it.

00:13:39   - I'm so sorry.

00:13:40   Speaking of things I'm sorry about,

00:13:41   John, how's that multi-factor authentication dance going?

00:13:45   - Yeah, it was a follow-up on the college account stuff,

00:13:48   So I dealt with that.

00:13:49   Where did I leave it?

00:13:50   I did say I was going to have to contact them.

00:13:52   So that's what I did.

00:13:53   I contacted the help desk or whatever.

00:13:55   So here is what the deal was.

00:13:58   So the problem that the college had is that they have the system where there's a page

00:14:03   where you say, you know, set up multi-factor authentication.

00:14:06   Or if you already have it set up, it says reconfigure multi-factor authentication.

00:14:09   And then it also says disable multi-factor authentication.

00:14:13   As I said, I was having trouble with it, couldn't figure out why it wasn't working.

00:14:15   So I hit disable and it was disabled and then it changed to say setup multi-factor authentication.

00:14:22   The disable button was gone and it was replaced with a button to set it up.

00:14:25   But I wanted to leave it unset up and of course that didn't work.

00:14:28   Every time I tried to log in it kept asking me for multi-factor and eventually I got logged

00:14:31   out of everything.

00:14:32   So that was the problem.

00:14:34   And I sent an email to the support and explained the situation.

00:14:36   It was very clear in my support email and usually pretty straightforward thing.

00:14:39   It's like I disabled multi-factor authentication but now when I log in it asks me to do multi-factor.

00:14:44   I feel like it's a succinct summary of the problem.

00:14:47   So help, because I can't log in, because it prompts me

00:14:50   for multi-factor.

00:14:51   But as far as I know, I disabled it,

00:14:53   so I don't have anything to enter.

00:14:58   And the email reply from a human was, oh,

00:15:01   if you're having trouble setting up multi-factor,

00:15:05   do this, that.

00:15:06   It was telling me what I should do to set up multi-factor,

00:15:09   or how different apps I can use for it or whatever.

00:15:12   And I felt like the response didn't acknowledge my statement,

00:15:16   which was I've disabled multi-factor.

00:15:18   That's what I opened with.

00:15:19   My opening was, I have disabled multi-factor authentication.

00:15:22   But when I log in, it prompts me.

00:15:24   And so they were just trying to help me, like, oh,

00:15:26   why can't you log in with your multi-factor?

00:15:28   I'm like, because I disabled it?

00:15:30   Anyway, after contacting human via telephone,

00:15:34   what they said was, oh, you can't disable multi-factor.

00:15:37   It's required.

00:15:38   The college requires it for all logins,

00:15:40   which is a reasonable policy.

00:15:41   But why is there a big button that says disable multifactor?

00:15:45   Well, it turns out that this third-party product

00:15:47   they're using for like--

00:15:49   it's some third-day product that any college

00:15:52   can buy that helps kids organize their schedule or whatever.

00:15:57   I'm not actually entirely sure what it does.

00:15:59   But that third-party product has its very own login system.

00:16:04   And it has its own account page.

00:16:05   And on that account page, it has a bunch of multifactor stuff.

00:16:08   But the implementation in this college

00:16:10   doesn't use its own login, it uses your college login,

00:16:14   you know, like your account for the college,

00:16:16   and then it just does single sign on basically

00:16:18   to get you into that other thing.

00:16:19   So you never actually log into this third party system,

00:16:22   but the third party system has an account page,

00:16:25   and also it's by the way,

00:16:26   you land on this third party system, like when you log in,

00:16:29   so it makes it seem like you've logged in,

00:16:31   here you are, here's your thing,

00:16:32   and there's a big, you know,

00:16:33   your little silhouette of a person and go to account,

00:16:36   and it makes you think that this is your account.

00:16:38   This is where you'd go to change your password,

00:16:40   set up multi-factor or whatever,

00:16:41   but that multi-factor stuff has absolutely no effect

00:16:44   on your ability to log into your school account.

00:16:46   The school account, it turns out,

00:16:47   is just Microsoft Active Directory, blah, blah, blah, right?

00:16:49   And it uses single sign-on to this third-party product.

00:16:52   But I said to the person,

00:16:53   you should really remove all those buttons

00:16:56   that say change your password, set up multi-factor,

00:16:58   'cause those have no effect on your actual account.

00:17:00   So it turns out I was just messing with multi-factor stuff

00:17:03   for an account that I was never gonna log into.

00:17:05   And because the first time I set it up,

00:17:08   I deleted the previous multi-factor

00:17:09   and entered the new one that I thought was the new one

00:17:11   when I reconfigured it, right?

00:17:13   I had just deleted the one and only valid multi-factor

00:17:15   to actually log into the AD thing, right?

00:17:18   And now I was just messing with this third party thing

00:17:20   which was never gonna have any relevance whatsoever

00:17:22   to anything that I ever did.

00:17:24   So multi-factor was reset.

00:17:26   Now with my new found knowledge

00:17:27   that I should just completely avoid that entire account page

00:17:30   and don't touch any of that multi-factor stuff

00:17:31   'cause it's totally irrelevant,

00:17:33   I got multi-factor set up everywhere.

00:17:34   And yes, I did use the thing on the phone.

00:17:36   If you do it in iOS, you can just point the camera

00:17:38   the QR code and it reads it. I still have a to-do item to get some stuff together for Ricky who

00:17:45   works on this team at Apple to figure out why Safari on the Mac wouldn't let me right click

00:17:51   after I replaced the URL and I think my suggestion that the Mac be able to also accept QR code input

00:17:56   either through the camera or by dragging an image or something like that. I think that

00:18:00   feedback was also heard so fingers crossed for the future but anyway it is all sorted out

00:18:04   And it just goes to show the dangers of, I don't know,

00:18:08   like slightly too much knowledge, too little knowledge.

00:18:11   I don't know, I still feel like the whole page is a trap

00:18:13   because anybody who wanders over to that page

00:18:14   and goes to their account and sees all this stuff

00:18:16   about passwords and multi-factor, it's totally a trap.

00:18:19   Almost anything you do there is at best

00:18:21   gonna have no effect and at worst gonna confuse you

00:18:24   into locking yourself out.

00:18:25   - I will say on this topic that this whole story

00:18:28   kind of inspired me to try to put some of my most

00:18:32   frequently used two factor logins

00:18:34   into Apple password system, whatever.

00:18:37   Is it called like Keychain?

00:18:39   - I call it Keychain.

00:18:40   - Okay, so yeah, putting it into that

00:18:42   because I still use 1Password,

00:18:44   but 1Password is increasingly clunky in my experience.

00:18:49   I haven't yet been updated to 1Password 8 yet.

00:18:55   They just did a big new release,

00:18:56   so maybe it's improved there, I don't know.

00:18:58   But the interaction between 1Password and my browsers

00:19:01   on both the Mac and on especially the iPhone

00:19:04   seems very fragile and seems to miss a lot.

00:19:09   And so I'm interested now in moving

00:19:13   some of the most common things to the Apple system

00:19:15   just so it fills faster and more reliably and stuff.

00:19:17   So anyway, so I learned that there's a really nice

00:19:21   export process from 1Password.

00:19:23   You can export any item or set of items

00:19:26   into an iCloud keychain CSV file.

00:19:30   Now, this is comically insecure while it's on disk

00:19:33   because this is literally a file

00:19:34   with unencrypted password data sitting in plain text

00:19:39   on your disk.

00:19:40   And what's nice is that if you go into the Apple password

00:19:44   pref pane, in one of those little dropdown boxes,

00:19:47   there's an option to import this specially formatted CSV.

00:19:50   And it of course yells at you,

00:19:51   this is really insecure by the way.

00:19:52   But then once you do it, it actually gives you

00:19:54   a little button that deletes the file immediately

00:19:57   and bypasses the trash system on the Mac.

00:19:59   So that's nice in the sense that this is only

00:20:02   in your disk for a short time

00:20:03   and this little convenience thing is there.

00:20:05   And anyway, the two-factor stuff that I transferred over

00:20:07   transferred perfectly.

00:20:09   Whatever the format is of this file,

00:20:11   I looked at one of the files, it's just literally like,

00:20:13   it's like website, username, password,

00:20:15   and OTP basis or whatever.

00:20:18   And it worked great.

00:20:19   So now I have some of my most common two-factor things

00:20:22   in iCloud Keychain and as far as I can tell,

00:20:25   it just kinda works.

00:20:26   So I might start moving more stuff into that

00:20:29   or at least copying it, and I've decided finally,

00:20:33   like literally like yesterday,

00:20:35   remember when I mentioned months ago

00:20:37   that I had the ridiculous setup

00:20:39   where both 1Password and iCloud were prompting me

00:20:42   to fill in every single password field in Safari?

00:20:45   I maintained that until yesterday.

00:20:47   (laughing)

00:20:48   - Oh my word.

00:20:49   - It was a mess.

00:20:50   I finally got fed up.

00:20:51   And so I decided, I finally turned off

00:20:56   the auto-prompting of, like, in every input field

00:21:00   for 1Password.

00:21:01   So I'm gonna leave Apple to auto-prompt me

00:21:04   and kind of leave 1Password as like a lookup system

00:21:08   and see how that goes.

00:21:09   But anyway, I just wanted to bring up the migration thing

00:21:12   'cause you can really easily export from 1Password

00:21:15   into iCloud Keychain in a way that I didn't think

00:21:17   would work at all, let alone that everyone

00:21:19   would have made so easy.

00:21:21   - Two things on that.

00:21:22   One, do you ever find yourself in a situation

00:21:24   you have a file that like you know a file is going to be fully your passwords briefly or whatever and

00:21:28   if you're super paranoid about it it's a good idea to have somewhere on your folder structure

00:21:35   in your home directory a dedicated directory i just call mine do not back up it's a folder that

00:21:42   you just mark as you exclude from time machine i have lots of stuff excluded from time machine if

00:21:46   you don't know how to do this you go to system preferences go to time machine click on like

00:21:48   options or something and it lets you basically drag in or hit the plus button and select a folder you

00:21:53   you want to be excluded from Time Machine, right?

00:21:55   But just having a dedicated location

00:21:57   that you know is always excluded from Time Machine,

00:21:59   like a Do Not Backup folder,

00:22:01   that is a great place to store these files

00:22:04   that you only want to exist for a brief timing and deleted,

00:22:06   because you never know,

00:22:07   maybe Time Machine was in the middle of running

00:22:09   and the time file appeared

00:22:10   and Time Machine was just about to go through that folder

00:22:12   and it picked it up and shoved it

00:22:13   into a Time Machine backup,

00:22:14   and now, unbeknownst to you,

00:22:15   you have every single one of your passwords in plain text

00:22:17   and Time Machine backup for who knows how long.

00:22:19   But if you put it in the Do Not Backup folder,

00:22:21   it'll never do that.

00:22:22   Same thing with Backblaze,

00:22:22   You can exclude folders.

00:22:24   Just have this one location that you're sure is excluded

00:22:26   from all the backup systems that you use,

00:22:28   and any time you ever need to put something on disk

00:22:30   that you don't really want on disk,

00:22:31   put it in the DoNotBackup folder.

00:22:33   Second thing is related to exports and everything.

00:22:36   I talked about before, when we had the two factors set up,

00:22:39   I just wanted to get that information out,

00:22:41   and it was set up in the Google Authenticator app,

00:22:43   and I said I basically ran out of time

00:22:44   when I was trying to reverse engineer the format,

00:22:47   'cause if you do an export from Google Authenticator,

00:22:49   it'll give you a QR code, and so I save that QR code,

00:22:52   and then I decoded the QR code,

00:22:54   and then within that decoding of the QR code,

00:22:56   there was some more information to decode,

00:22:57   and eventually it decodes into like a,

00:22:59   there's a big chunk where it's like a protobuf,

00:23:01   'cause Google loves its protobufs,

00:23:03   and I was decoding that, and I got that decoded,

00:23:05   but then there was more binary data in it,

00:23:07   and I just ran out of time before I could get it all down.

00:23:09   And other people were like, what are you talking about?

00:23:11   If you just decode the QR code,

00:23:13   it's a simple plain text thing,

00:23:14   and the thing field called secret

00:23:16   is just what you put into that sort of setup code

00:23:18   in the Apple thing.

00:23:20   That's true, but the Google Authenticator app exports

00:23:24   is not the whatever is OTP, whatever URL scheme.

00:23:28   It is a special Google Authenticator thing.

00:23:30   And it's not like it's encrypted or hidden or anything.

00:23:33   The information is there.

00:23:34   Obviously that's how QR codes work.

00:23:35   The information is in the QR code.

00:23:37   It's not like it's hiding the information from you.

00:23:38   But I think they came up with their format

00:23:40   because if you export multiple items

00:23:43   from Google Authenticator, it gives you one QR code,

00:23:45   which is super convenient if you ever need to copy it

00:23:47   to another device.

00:23:48   I think it lets you do 10 or so at a time.

00:23:51   But that means they're not using the same format,

00:23:52   because the regular format is like,

00:23:54   it's some plain text URL that says, basically,

00:23:57   website blah, blah, blah, secret equals this value.

00:24:00   It looks like a URL.

00:24:01   But if you're doing 10 at once,

00:24:02   you can't just use a single URL.

00:24:03   So what they do is some other URL format

00:24:05   where it says like data equals giant base64 encoded thing.

00:24:09   And that base64 encoded thing is the protobuf thing,

00:24:11   and then you should decode the protobuf,

00:24:12   and that's got information inside it,

00:24:14   including some binary numbers that are,

00:24:18   Number is not encoded as ASCII, right?

00:24:21   Actual binary values of 16, 32, 64-bit values.

00:24:25   I think those are the secret.

00:24:27   I didn't get to the point where I could decode those,

00:24:29   but for people wondering why just decoding the QR code

00:24:31   wasn't sufficient, it's for this reason,

00:24:33   because Google Authenticator has an export format

00:24:35   of a QR code that is essentially only understood

00:24:37   by Google Authenticator, because it's to export

00:24:40   these things to, like if you wanted to put it from,

00:24:42   you know, if you wanted to have it on two phones

00:24:43   or on a phone and an iPad, you have Google Authenticator

00:24:46   in both, that's what you use.

00:24:47   So the information is in there and you could,

00:24:49   in theory, extract it, but I never got to that point.

00:24:52   There's lots of like Python libraries

00:24:54   and JavaScript libraries to actually decode them

00:24:56   if you really want to.

00:24:57   Again, it's technically possible,

00:24:58   but once I sorted out all the stuff,

00:25:00   I knew I had to reset everything anyway

00:25:02   because I was totally locked out.

00:25:03   So when I reset my stuff,

00:25:06   I was at the point where I had the real QR code

00:25:08   in front of me and then I just put all the devices

00:25:11   in front of it and got it all set up.

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00:26:58   (upbeat music)

00:27:02   - So Marco has a computer that cannot

00:27:04   successfully record a podcast,

00:27:06   and you are also having some amount

00:27:09   of computer trouble it sounds,

00:27:10   So I can hardly wait to hear what I'm spilling on my laptop

00:27:14   or what ailment is going to befall me soon,

00:27:17   since everything happens in threes anyway.

00:27:18   But tell me, Jon, what's going on with your computer.

00:27:22   - It's not, it's just a follow-up from a past thing.

00:27:24   Remember I talked about, I had this,

00:27:25   I did this long audition of many,

00:27:27   many different mice from my computer,

00:27:29   and I ended up picking the one I wanted.

00:27:30   It was this Microsoft mouse,

00:27:31   and then I used it for a while,

00:27:33   and then like the rubber on the side

00:27:34   where my thumb touches it started to wear down

00:27:36   or feel kind of gross.

00:27:38   And I'd bought a backup one,

00:27:39   I went through that whole rigmarole where they had to like,

00:27:41   have me take a video of it.

00:27:42   That was many episodes ago.

00:27:44   I couldn't find the episode, but anyway,

00:27:45   a while ago that happened.

00:27:47   So I've been using the new replacement,

00:27:49   not replacement, the backup mouse.

00:27:50   They sent me, I sent my mouse in 'cause it was broken.

00:27:53   They sent me a refurb one.

00:27:54   I thought the refurb one looked kind of gross,

00:27:55   but I had previously bought a backup mouse.

00:27:57   I was using the backup mouse.

00:27:59   And now the backup mouse has worn in that same spot

00:28:02   where my thumb goes.

00:28:03   So I'd looked at the dates

00:28:04   and I ordered this mouse on April 2nd, 2021.

00:28:07   And on May 8th, 2022, the little thing was worn.

00:28:11   So that's 401 days, just slightly over a year.

00:28:14   So the Microsoft Precision mouse, my favorite mouse,

00:28:16   the mouse I really, really like, essentially lasts a year

00:28:19   and it costs $99.

00:28:20   So I guess I'm gonna pay $100 a year

00:28:23   to keep using this mouse or probably what will happen is

00:28:26   I will tolerate the fact that there's a little thing

00:28:29   that I can feel under my thumb by the side of the mouse.

00:28:31   But I really wish they had just used,

00:28:33   like they should talk to Logitech.

00:28:34   Whatever rubber Logitech uses on its mice,

00:28:37   I think it is way sturdier.

00:28:38   Maybe it's not as supple and soft and velvety

00:28:42   as the rubber they use on the Microsoft mouse,

00:28:45   but I think it's more durable.

00:28:46   And I don't dislike the other mice that I bought.

00:28:50   I have an MX Master 3, I have a Logitech gaming mouse,

00:28:54   I have a different, some other mouse

00:28:58   that my wife is using on her computer.

00:29:00   I still like the Microsoft one the best.

00:29:02   I just wish it was slightly more durable.

00:29:05   We had some good feedback with regard to async/await

00:29:07   and combine, which was an Ask ATP from last week.

00:29:10   This feedback was from Patrick Niemeyer,

00:29:11   and I thought I'd just quote it real quick.

00:29:13   Async/await is syntactic sugar for asynchronous callbacks,

00:29:16   making code simpler and more readable

00:29:18   by virtue of being more, quote, unquote, declarative.

00:29:20   APIs like Combine and RxSwift generalize this further,

00:29:23   letting you think of the callbacks as streams of events,

00:29:25   which can be reasoned about over time,

00:29:28   allowing them to be filtered and orchestrated

00:29:29   across multiple sources, also in a declarative way.

00:29:33   When possible, it is always better to tell code

00:29:35   what you want to do rather than how you want to do it.

00:29:38   This generally improves the readability and maintainability

00:29:40   of the code while simultaneously allowing it to benefit

00:29:43   from improvements in the underlying APIs, compilers,

00:29:45   and tools that they improve.

00:29:47   I thought that was really well put.

00:29:48   This is a lot of the same argument for SwiftUI over UIKit.

00:29:50   You're just saying, you know, hey, I want a list here.

00:29:53   I want within the list a text, a vertical stack,

00:29:56   et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

00:29:57   So this is a lot of the same reasons

00:29:59   why I've come to like SwiftUI.

00:30:01   Also for me, it's worth noting,

00:30:03   think I belabored this point appropriately last week, but one of the things I really

00:30:07   like about RxSwift and Combine is that, in functional reactive programming, is that if

00:30:12   you're smart about it, it's very, very easy, generally, to write kind of state-free apps.

00:30:19   And obviously every app has state, but when you're just processing an input and then potentially

00:30:24   generating, kind of atomically generating a new state of the world, you don't have to

00:30:29   really store the state, it's just you react to the next version of the state.

00:30:33   This is hard to paint a word picture about, so I probably lost everyone and I'll just

00:30:37   let it go, but suffice it to say, you can get rid of a lot of state in your app by not

00:30:43   having to store things and simply reacting to events as they happen, which is exactly

00:30:47   what Patrick was saying as well.

00:30:48   So I thought that was pretty cool.

00:30:49   All right, so this is Inwall Ethernet Corner.

00:30:53   I got a lot of feedback about this, which was good.

00:30:56   I appreciated all of it.

00:30:57   I tried to at least acknowledge most, if not all, of it.

00:31:00   If I didn't acknowledge your feedback, don't think that I didn't read it.

00:31:03   I absolutely read everything.

00:31:05   One of the things that I loved about this adventure so far is that I got these two pieces

00:31:09   of feedback, I think the same day.

00:31:12   First from Daniel.

00:31:14   Daniel says, "Absolutely do not bother with Cat6a."

00:31:16   And Daniel writes, "I am not sure what the price difference between Cat6 and Cat6a in

00:31:20   the US is, but for me in Australia, the only thing for me that would warrant the extra

00:31:23   expense of Cat6a would be if the run was long or extremely hard to repeat in the future.

00:31:27   achieves 10 gig at distances shorter than 55 meters, so that would be fine in a home network.

00:31:33   The same day, I received the following from Josh Hattersley. "Absolutely use Cat6a cable for your

00:31:39   interior wall/attic/subfloor runs. It's a nice bit of future proofing and given that you should never

00:31:44   have to touch those wires again, worth the extra time and pain in the tuchus of working with

00:31:48   stiffer cable." Josh also pointed out, I think it was Josh, pointed out a few other things,

00:31:54   including, Josh wrote, "Note that they're both

00:31:57   "unshielded 6A-U or UTP and shielded 6A-F UTP."

00:32:02   - Does an F UTP sound like a show

00:32:05   that our haters would make?

00:32:06   - Probably, yes, actually very well done, indeed.

00:32:09   Don't give them ideas, please.

00:32:11   So anyway, additional level of shielded cable available.

00:32:13   - I like the butterfly keyboard.

00:32:16   - F U A T P.

00:32:17   - What if it would be all about Elon Musk, NFTs,

00:32:21   and the butterfly keyboard, maybe Android?

00:32:23   (laughing)

00:32:25   There's an additional level of shielded cable available,

00:32:28   6A SFTP, that's S/FTP, not SFTP.

00:32:33   That is not only an outer screen braid,

00:32:35   but also individually foil wrapped twisted pairs.

00:32:37   Unshielded 6A will likely be fine,

00:32:38   or go for FUTP at the most.

00:32:41   And we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:32:43   I know, I know.

00:32:44   We'll put a link in the show notes

00:32:45   to pictures of all these things.

00:32:46   - Follow up, you suck.

00:32:47   - Here we are again on the FUTP podcast.

00:32:52   and they still suck.

00:32:54   - Why don't they just switch to Windows?

00:32:56   - Right. (laughs)

00:32:57   If they hate the Mac so much, they're so critical.

00:33:00   If they're so hypercritical.

00:33:03   Anyway, all right.

00:33:04   So a lot of people said to use Cat6 or even 5e cables

00:33:09   to get from the jacks to your equipment,

00:33:11   Cat6a is not at all flexible compared to other Ethernet

00:33:14   cables and a pain to use in patch length scenarios.

00:33:17   If you actually need higher rated patch cables

00:33:18   down the road for 10 gig E,

00:33:20   you'll be opening up a whole new can of worms anyway, and you'll need to replace those cables regardless.

00:33:24   So that was mostly, if not entirely, from Josh.

00:33:27   I really appreciate that. Some more general observations, other than everyone disagreeing over what kind of cable to run.

00:33:32   A lot of people said use pass-through crimpers. I may or may not have mentioned this last episode,

00:33:37   I don't recall, but when you crimp an RJ45 end onto a cable, when I was doing this 20 years ago,

00:33:42   you had to get the eight little teeny tiny wires all the way up to the end of the

00:33:47   connector and then you had to use a little tool to crimp down and hope that none of those eight wires shimmied

00:33:52   forward or back even the tiniest bit and it was a nightmare.

00:33:55   Well, apparently there exists now pass-through crimpers where you just shove the eight lines all the way through the

00:34:02   RJ45 and then you crimp it and some of the really nice crimpers will just slice off the extra or worst case you take

00:34:10   wire cutters and slice off the rest, which is super cool. And everyone pretty much universally said use those.

00:34:15   - Yeah, actually, when I was trying to fix my Cat 7,

00:34:18   my couple of bad Cat 7 cables and jacks myself,

00:34:21   I actually tried one of these,

00:34:23   but the problem was I could not, for the life of me,

00:34:25   find pass-through cable ends that would fit the thickness

00:34:29   of the Cat 7 little cables.

00:34:32   And it's yet one more reason not to use Cat 7

00:34:35   for most people.

00:34:36   So I can strongly recommend doing this the correct way

00:34:39   and not doing what I had.

00:34:40   - And I have heard some people say that 6A,

00:34:44   The individual 8, individual wires in 6A are often a little

00:34:47   bit bigger than 5 or regular 6, so you do have to be a little

00:34:51   careful with the components you buy.

00:34:53   But nevertheless, it seems a lot less bad than Cat 7.

00:34:59   This was mentioned by Josh earlier, but I also heard

00:35:01   pretty much unanimous agreement that I should not do

00:35:04   what kind of started me down this whole path in the first

00:35:06   place, which was, oh, I can have the exact length patch

00:35:09   cable I want.

00:35:10   I'm not really clear why everyone is so against this,

00:35:13   except if you're using big thick cable like 6a but pretty much everyone agrees that I should not do that and I should just buy

00:35:19   Patch cables, I don't know

00:35:20   I mean, I think depending on what I end up buying if I do this at all, we'll see how it goes

00:35:24   I like I said apparently 6a is really crummy for cabling or patch cabling because it is so physically

00:35:30   Can you buy is it easy to find stranded?

00:35:32   Cable because patch cables are always with stranded. We're in best branded is that within each individual conductor

00:35:37   It's made up of a bunch of tiny little

00:35:40   conductors like you've seen this if you ever cut open a wire and instead of seeing a solid copper

00:35:43   Conductor in there you see a whole bunch of little tiny hair thickness copper things that stranded wire

00:35:49   That makes the wire more supple and easier to bend

00:35:52   It's not stiff, right?

00:35:54   And so that's what patch cables are made out of you just buy a commercial ones if you're gonna make your own patch cables

00:35:58   You'd have to find

00:36:00   Stranded cable and then crimp the stranded cable. I don't even know how that would work, right?

00:36:04   I don't know if that's easy to do or not

00:36:06   But I would never want to make like setting aside the difficulty of like making it yourself and how stiff it is

00:36:12   Just like I wouldn't want a patch cable that's not made with stranded and once you're making it out of stranded stuff

00:36:17   I feel like you might as well just buy it at that point because

00:36:19   It just seems like a whole different thing than making maybe it's just the same as making a regular one

00:36:24   But anyway coming from office environments like you know

00:36:26   Okay

00:36:26   See like didn't your work also have like someone in the IT department or whatever the networking department made the patch cables and weren't they?

00:36:33   Not pleasing to use

00:36:35   - You know, I don't, it's been a long time

00:36:38   since I worked at a place that used ethernet.

00:36:41   Like I demanded it because I'm that guy,

00:36:42   but pretty much everyone else at my last jobby job,

00:36:45   they were just sitting on wireless all day every day.

00:36:47   - Oh, well we had plenty of patch cables

00:36:49   that were made by the networking people

00:36:50   and they were not stranded wire

00:36:52   and they didn't have nice looking connectors on the end

00:36:54   and they were just a pain to deal with

00:36:56   and they didn't, they were just, they were not pleasant.

00:36:58   - Yeah, they don't usually have like nice

00:36:59   strain relief boots and stuff either.

00:37:01   - Exactly, right.

00:37:02   - They're just never, they're never nice to use.

00:37:04   They, self-made cables end up looking

00:37:07   like cheap knockoff cables.

00:37:08   - And if they're not made with stranded wires,

00:37:11   they're really stiff and awkward

00:37:13   and often have their own kind of bends in them

00:37:15   from however they were stored and wherever they were

00:37:17   and so you try to hook up your thing to them.

00:37:19   And like, for example, when we all got the stupid

00:37:23   MacBook Pros without any ports on them

00:37:25   and we all got these little like USB breakout boxes

00:37:28   so we could connect stuff to them,

00:37:30   often one of the things that you would connect

00:37:31   was ethernet and you'd put in

00:37:33   the non-stranded patch cable,

00:37:35   and it would lift the thing off the table,

00:37:36   'cause they're so small and lightweight,

00:37:38   and the cable was so stiff,

00:37:41   that you'd plug it into the ethernet,

00:37:42   and then it would just lift off the table,

00:37:43   or one side would lift off the table,

00:37:45   and it just looked ridiculous.

00:37:47   - You know, I'm glad you said that

00:37:48   about stranded versus solid copper,

00:37:50   'cause I never put that together,

00:37:51   and I genuinely did not understand

00:37:53   why it would be so much worse to do it with the cable,

00:37:56   the bulk cable I might be buying,

00:37:58   but hearing you say that, it makes perfect sense,

00:38:00   and I get it now.

00:38:00   - I'm talking about like a cable,

00:38:02   like three feet long or like it goes from your computer to the little you

00:38:05   know USB-C breakout box like you don't it doesn't matter you don't need a

00:38:09   anything fancy and so you like Marcos did you want to have the strain relief

00:38:12   boot because things get yanked around and you want to look nice and yeah you

00:38:16   know aesthetically pleasing you don't want it to look like a cable shoved into

00:38:20   a little plastic connector yeah a lot of people pointed out oh guess what you're

00:38:27   - We're back in the T568A versus B discussion

00:38:30   all over again, which made me very sad.

00:38:33   Yeah, that made me very sad to realize.

00:38:34   - We're not back into it, we resolved this before.

00:38:37   - Yeah, but what did we resolve it to?

00:38:38   I don't remember.

00:38:39   - The resolution is it doesn't make a difference,

00:38:42   so just pick one, and which one you pick,

00:38:46   it doesn't really matter, but people have a preference

00:38:49   to B just because it's one more than A, isn't it?

00:38:51   - Well, and a lot of people just said B was used

00:38:53   for residential and A is for commercial.

00:38:55   I remember going through this a couple of months ago.

00:38:57   I don't need to reopen the whole thing.

00:38:57   - Yeah, it was like their compatibility with phone system

00:39:00   and things that are irrelevant to your scenario.

00:39:01   - It doesn't matter.

00:39:02   - So it doesn't matter.

00:39:03   - It doesn't matter, just take each system.

00:39:04   - The whole point is do not mix them.

00:39:06   - Right, exactly.

00:39:07   - Just pick one and stick to it.

00:39:09   - Good tip from Ron Disho.

00:39:11   He had said, "Mark your cables.

00:39:12   "Either use a label maker or mark them

00:39:14   "with a Sharpie or something.

00:39:15   "For example, use an increasing number of tick marks

00:39:17   "that match on both ends."

00:39:19   Something obvious, but I don't know

00:39:20   that I would have thought about that,

00:39:21   so that was a great tip.

00:39:22   - The tick mark system, I like the idea of doing this,

00:39:25   but then I'm like, what if you're in an office

00:39:27   and you're sitting there,

00:39:28   I can see someone counting the ticks, one, two, three,

00:39:30   like are you supposed to do the slashes

00:39:31   and then if you do five, you know, four vertical,

00:39:33   and then diagonal slash, it's like, we have numbers,

00:39:35   just write them in and then, yeah, anyway.

00:39:38   - I hear you.

00:39:39   Also, a lot of people were sending in recommendations

00:39:42   for cable, which I appreciate,

00:39:44   but since I'm planning to go through old HVAC tubing,

00:39:47   if I do this at all,

00:39:48   I should probably get plenum rated cable.

00:39:50   So I don't remember if we talked about this last episode,

00:39:53   but there's riser rated cable,

00:39:54   which is about what the fire resistance of it is.

00:39:59   And with riser rated cable, it's somewhat fire resistant.

00:40:02   And that is not designed to be in like air ducts

00:40:05   or anything like that.

00:40:06   If you're in an air duct, certainly an active air duct,

00:40:09   I think it's a little kind of dealer's choice

00:40:11   if you're in an inactive air duct like I would be.

00:40:14   But if you're in an air duct,

00:40:16   you're supposed to get what's called plenum rated cable.

00:40:18   And that is extremely fire resistant

00:40:22   as compared to the riser stuff.

00:40:23   And it's made of materials that when they burn off,

00:40:26   they're not releasing toxic fumes into the air.

00:40:30   Because if it's in an active HVAC system,

00:40:32   then you're pumping these toxic fumes all over the building,

00:40:35   or whatever the case may be.

00:40:36   So I think in my case, if I do this at all,

00:40:40   I'm probably gonna go with plenum-rated cable,

00:40:41   which of course makes the already expensive cable

00:40:43   even more expensive, especially if I'm thinking 6A,

00:40:46   which I'm still thinking-- - But why?

00:40:46   You're not putting it in an active air duct.

00:40:48   - Yeah, but it just seems like why wouldn't I do this?

00:40:50   Especially since it's better at resisting fire,

00:40:53   and God forbid the house tries to light up.

00:40:55   I'm sure the ethernet cable would not be the thing

00:40:57   that carries it all around, but hey, it could be a toaster,

00:41:00   and that's a reference for some of you.

00:41:02   So anyway, so the point is,

00:41:04   I just feel like getting plenum-rated

00:41:05   would be the right-er answer.

00:41:06   - Wouldn't that just make it more difficult

00:41:08   to work with possibly,

00:41:09   and also it would make it more expensive,

00:41:10   which might make you not do this whole project

00:41:12   in the first place?

00:41:13   - Yes to all of those things.

00:41:14   - Oh, he's doing it, I think it makes it more difficult.

00:41:17   Like I said, I think the difficulty, yes,

00:41:18   you're making it more annoying for yourself,

00:41:20   and I think you don't need plenum-rated cable,

00:41:22   But in the grand scheme of things,

00:41:23   this project is not too large.

00:41:25   I feel like no matter what you do,

00:41:26   you're gonna get it done,

00:41:27   'cause you have like three things to connect,

00:41:28   and you're done.

00:41:29   - Well, yeah, about that.

00:41:31   Also the-- - Has the scope expanded?

00:41:33   - Oh, has it ever.

00:41:35   It's so funny.

00:41:36   It's so funny being on the other end of scope creep.

00:41:39   So if you're not a developer,

00:41:41   especially if you're a consultant,

00:41:43   sorry, let me try that again, that made no sense.

00:41:45   If you're not familiar with how software development works,

00:41:49   particularly in the world of consulting,

00:41:51   What'll happen is, you know, as a software developer

00:41:53   and maybe a project manager and a couple other people

00:41:54   will go to a client and say,

00:41:55   "Okay, what would you like us to build?"

00:41:56   And they'll say, "We would like A, B, and C, please."

00:41:59   And you say, "Okay, great, that'll take, you know,

00:42:00   45 hours," or whatever the case may be.

00:42:02   Inevitably, the client then comes to you and says,

00:42:04   "Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

00:42:05   we need D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P."

00:42:08   (laughing)

00:42:09   Okay, that's what developers call scope creep

00:42:13   because the scope of the project has now crept to be larger.

00:42:17   And typically, I joke, but typically it's more like,

00:42:19   Oh, oh, oh, we need D fast forward three weeks. Oh, oh, oh, oh, we also need E fast forward a month.

00:42:26   Oh, and F and G. I forgot about F and G. We definitely need those. And that's scope creep.

00:42:30   Well, I have scope creeped myself to death already. And as I was thinking about this project,

00:42:36   well, if I'm going to be in the walls anyway, and if I'm going from like the downstairs to the

00:42:40   upstairs, I'm going to want to do all the possible runs that I would need to go between, you know,

00:42:46   upstairs and downstairs at once.

00:42:48   And well, Michaela's room was my old office,

00:42:53   and that's tiny, and the guest room is the current office,

00:42:57   and that's much bigger.

00:42:58   And it wouldn't surprise me if at some point in the future,

00:43:00   the 35 ports that I, figuratively speaking,

00:43:03   that I need in the existing office,

00:43:05   well, what if I end up needing those

00:43:06   in Michaela's current room,

00:43:08   because what if Michaela and I flip-flop rooms

00:43:11   so that her room is the office

00:43:13   and my office becomes her room?

00:43:15   well shoot, then I need like six or eight drops in both her room and the guest room,

00:43:20   because you never know which one will be the office, it's just exploding. So I was in the

00:43:25   attic this morning and let's just say the Historical Planning Commission is not necessarily

00:43:33   on board with the project in the home at this juncture. So this may or may not be happening,

00:43:38   we'll see, but... So I'm curious, which part of the project would be the most objectionable

00:43:44   to a historical planning commission.

00:43:46   - I think the thought of me putting my fist,

00:43:48   or not even my fist, my foot through the ceiling

00:43:51   of the upper story, because not all of our attic

00:43:54   has boards on it, especially the parts

00:43:56   that I need to be crawling through.

00:43:58   I think the historical planning commission

00:44:00   is extremely unenthusiastic about the idea

00:44:03   of having to do a ceiling drywall repair

00:44:06   at any point during this project.

00:44:07   And knowing how much of a clod I am,

00:44:10   that is exceptionally likely to be a plausible outcome.

00:44:13   Don't forget, I don't know what your eye looks like, but don't forget the hazard in the other direction,

00:44:17   which is standing up too quickly and getting your roofing nail into the top of your head.

00:44:21   Oh, that's that is a fear that I did not have until just now. Thank you so much.

00:44:25   Do you have open stud bays in your in your uninsulated southern house?

00:44:29   I mean, I don't remember there being nails just hanging down into the living area.

00:44:35   Look up when you're in the attic, point your iPhone upwards carefully without dropping it.

00:44:40   - And take a picture of the ceiling

00:44:41   and see if you have open stud bays,

00:44:44   you will have roofing nails coming through,

00:44:46   the sheathing on the outside of your house

00:44:48   and pointing downward into the room you're in.

00:44:49   If you get up quickly,

00:44:51   that nail will go onto the top of your head

00:44:52   and you will be sad.

00:44:53   - I would say I would be very sad indeed.

00:44:55   And so will you too,

00:44:56   because I will probably not be around for the show anymore.

00:44:58   Maybe you'll be happy.

00:44:59   - You won't die, you'll just bleed a lot.

00:45:01   Get some stitches.

00:45:02   - Stu Penders.

00:45:04   Moving right along.

00:45:05   So there was also near universal agreement

00:45:07   that if I am wiring any room,

00:45:09   it'd be at one or 10 or whatever, if I'm going to any room,

00:45:13   don't be an idiot, wire at least two wires.

00:45:16   If you're gonna have one, have two.

00:45:18   If you think you need two, put in four.

00:45:21   And that's how I got to like eight in the office,

00:45:24   'cause I think I might legitimately need that many, but.

00:45:26   - You realize with this project,

00:45:28   you are essentially in a race with wireless technology?

00:45:31   - I know, that's a very good point.

00:45:32   - 'Cause we've already talked about

00:45:34   people getting ridiculous 5G signals, right?

00:45:36   If you happen to be right near

00:45:37   one of those millimeter wave things or whatever.

00:45:38   So yeah, this whole project and any wiring project

00:45:43   is racing against the advancements in wireless.

00:45:46   Now, the good news is Wi-Fi standards move not slowly,

00:45:50   but at a fairly steady pace.

00:45:52   They don't seem to be accelerating, right?

00:45:54   So you could probably graph out how much faster

00:45:56   Wi-Fi has gotten over x number of years

00:45:57   and figure out when is it going to catch up

00:45:59   with 10 gig or whatever.

00:46:01   And really, it doesn't matter too much

00:46:02   if it doesn't keep up with your internet connection, which

00:46:04   is moving much more slowly than that.

00:46:06   But, you know, as future proof,

00:46:09   that's why Cat 7 is such a ridiculous thing,

00:46:11   'cause like as future proof as you think you're making it,

00:46:14   like just, you know, this type of thing,

00:46:17   assuming wireless technology, you know,

00:46:18   just within the house,

00:46:19   assuming wireless technology continues,

00:46:21   eventually, you know, when you're all dead

00:46:24   and this house gets sold to the next family,

00:46:26   presumably Wi-Fi will be like 10 gig or better

00:46:28   and no one will care about what you put in your wall

00:46:30   and they'll just laugh at it the same way we laugh

00:46:32   at the weird, old-timey things you find

00:46:34   in old people's houses.

00:46:35   like razors in the walls.

00:46:37   - Counterpoint though, look at the history

00:46:39   of these two technologies

00:46:40   and what actually happens in practice.

00:46:42   So, ethernet doesn't move that quickly

00:46:46   and requires you to put wires in places.

00:46:49   However, those wire standards, again,

00:46:51   like I put cat six in my house 10 years ago,

00:46:56   12 years ago, whenever it was, that's still fine.

00:46:59   I still don't have networking gear

00:47:00   that can exceed the capacity of those wires

00:47:02   I put in my house 10 years ago.

00:47:04   And meanwhile, 10 years ago, they promised gigabit speeds,

00:47:09   and they delivered gigabit speeds.

00:47:11   And this entire time, they have been reliably delivering

00:47:14   gigabit speeds, no matter what I have done.

00:47:16   As technology has moved forward,

00:47:17   that's always been very reliable 100% of the time.

00:47:20   The fastest internet service I can get to my house

00:47:22   is gigabit, and that's unlikely to change anytime soon.

00:47:25   So then, look at WiFi.

00:47:28   WiFi always promises more, more, more.

00:47:31   In practice though, Wi-Fi tends to hit a ceiling

00:47:35   of substantially less than whatever speeds

00:47:38   they claim it can hit in most people's actual real world use

00:47:42   because you have things like walls and other people's Wi-Fi

00:47:45   and the person next door who still somehow

00:47:47   has a cordless phone on the 2.4 gigahertz

00:47:49   and five gigahertz networks at the same time somehow

00:47:52   spreading broad spectrum interference all over the place

00:47:54   or they have a microwave or something like,

00:47:56   Wi-Fi is better in theory in a lot of cases

00:48:00   but in practice rarely matches Ethernet.

00:48:03   So, WiFi has a history, and probably a future,

00:48:06   just because of things like physics,

00:48:08   of potentially being really good,

00:48:11   and in certain cases being really good,

00:48:13   but not being as rock solid, reliable as wired Ethernet

00:48:17   when it's available.

00:48:18   And so, for a situation in your own house

00:48:21   where if you have an opportunity to wire things

00:48:25   that are generally not moved,

00:48:27   things like your TV setup, your office desk, you know,

00:48:32   if you can wire those things, wire them.

00:48:35   Because not only will they be more reliable and faster,

00:48:38   but then they will free up wireless spectrum and bandwidth

00:48:42   for your WiFi only devices like your phones, laptops,

00:48:44   and stuff to have more speed for what they are doing.

00:48:48   So I think there not only is still a role

00:48:51   for Ethernet today, but I think that role

00:48:53   will kind of continue indefinitely.

00:48:55   Again, I'm not making an infinite time scale

00:48:57   argument here, but I think Ethernet has still

00:49:01   quite a lot of years that we will still want to use it

00:49:04   when we reasonably can.

00:49:06   - I'm not arguing it's wiring things with Ethernet,

00:49:08   obviously all my stuff is wired with Ethernet

00:49:09   for those exact reasons.

00:49:10   What I'm saying is for most people,

00:49:12   Ethernet is already pointless.

00:49:14   How many people do you know who it's super important

00:49:16   in their house that they have Ethernet drops to every room?

00:49:18   Only the weirdest of computer nerds.

00:49:20   Everybody uses WiFi.

00:49:21   WiFi is the home networking solution,

00:49:24   despite the fact that it has worse latency,

00:49:26   that it has worse bandwidth, it has interference,

00:49:28   and your microwave messes it up sometimes.

00:49:30   Despite all of that, WiFi has already won that.

00:49:33   And what I'm saying is if you graph how much better WiFi,

00:49:36   how much faster is WiFi getting better

00:49:38   versus Ethernet standards,

00:49:40   which are only tangentially relevant

00:49:42   because people don't even have Ethernet wires

00:49:44   in their house, and internet connections,

00:49:46   which are getting better much more slowly,

00:49:49   and especially if you throw 5G in there,

00:49:52   and the possibility of 5G penetration,

00:49:54   especially people who live in urban areas,

00:49:55   5G is already faster than gigabit ethernet,

00:49:58   if you are lucky enough to look out your window

00:50:00   and see a millimeter wave thing or whatever.

00:50:01   And obviously it's not as wall penetrating

00:50:03   and so on and so forth,

00:50:04   but like wireless has already won that battle.

00:50:05   And so that's what I'm saying, like,

00:50:06   what you're racing against is even for the tech nerd,

00:50:09   it's possible, depending on where you live,

00:50:11   that either advancements in wifi

00:50:13   or advancements in 5G penetration

00:50:16   could give you more bandwidth than wired gigabit.

00:50:19   Still wired is better for reliability, for latency,

00:50:22   which is why I recommend that

00:50:23   If you're playing any kind of games, connect your consoles to Ethernet.

00:50:26   Do not connect your consoles to Wi-Fi no matter how good your signal is.

00:50:29   Get that little extra edge.

00:50:30   It's good.

00:50:31   But I feel like that is what is probably going to, arguably, has already "obsolete" the Ethernet

00:50:38   because the limitations of Ethernet, "Oh, I have to have a jack.

00:50:41   I have to have a wire.

00:50:42   I have to be near that jack.

00:50:43   If it's not already amassed, I have to have it," already makes wired Ethernet feel like

00:50:48   the same kind of relic as having two phone jacks in every room where if we saw that,

00:50:52   who cares who uses phones you use your cell phone or you get a wireless phone I

00:50:55   don't need a phone jack in every room and you say well phone jacks are more

00:50:58   reliable than these wireless things you can get interference in your wireless

00:51:01   like no I don't need a phone jack right never mind that the phone system is

00:51:05   ancient and gross or whatever but I feel like we're already there with wired

00:51:08   ethernet that already looks weird and for Casey's particular scenario if for

00:51:12   example he had chosen a wiring standard that maxed out at one gig I feel like

00:51:16   within his lifetime of owning this home it's possible the wireless would be

00:51:19   defeating that. 10 gig he's probably got plenty of headroom but certainly you

00:51:22   don't need more than that and I still think if he does you know go whole hog

00:51:28   and put away wires into every single room the next person to buy this house

00:51:32   to be like what kind of person owned this wire these holes in the wall what

00:51:34   is this like they won't even know what it is like because Wi-Fi is just so

00:51:38   ubiquitous and you know this is was it an office telephone system you know I

00:51:43   don't even know if they'll be able to identify it because you know to Casey's

00:51:46   point even many workplaces people don't have you turn out to their desks it's

00:51:49   all of this Wi-Fi. Yeah, I agree with both of you, and as a kind of anecdote

00:51:55   that puts the period on the sentence, if you will, when we were doing the screened-in

00:51:58   porch, I think I mentioned several times that one of the things I demanded from

00:52:01   the electricians and paid them to do was to put an Ethernet drop in the

00:52:06   screened-in porch. So it's on what was once the exterior wall that, well I guess

00:52:09   it's still strictly speaking the exterior wall of the house, it's just,

00:52:12   you know, undercover now. And I will, if I'm sitting down on the screened-in porch

00:52:16   working for, which I do often, and if I'm doing that for more than like half an

00:52:21   hour, I will grab an Ethernet cable and I will plug it into that port because even

00:52:26   though the Wi-Fi is just fine in the screened-in porch, it's still so much

00:52:29   faster and so much better. Even considering the fact that this

00:52:33   particular Ethernet port has to go through coax, through two mocha bridges

00:52:36   and coax in between them to get to anything, it's still so much better and

00:52:41   more reliable than Wi-Fi. And I have the most modern eero hardware one can get,

00:52:45   and this is not an indictment of Euro. It's just that Wi-Fi is a miracle that it works at all,

00:52:50   and so I agree with what you guys are saying, that you know, when you have something that is a direct

00:52:55   cable to the other things you're trying to reach, it's just so much faster and so much more reliable.

00:52:59   And so speaking of future-proofing, Matt Van Ormer writes, "Forget future-proofing for bandwidth. The

00:53:06   hardest part of running Ethernet is running the Ethernet. So if you're fishing a wire through the

00:53:09   wall, fish at least two. Then worst case, if you want to plug in another device in the room,

00:53:13   You don't need to dangle a switch off the back of your studio display.

00:53:15   Which here again, is just if you're gonna run one, run two, if you're gonna run two, run four, etc.

00:53:19   Also, patch panels are a thing, and I should probably figure out how rack mounts work, because I vaguely understand

00:53:28   what one U, two U, etc. means, but I've never really had to understand what all that is.

00:53:32   And I didn't really think about, okay, if I'm having a central terminus for all of this Ethernet that the Historical Committee may or may not approve,

00:53:39   Then where is that going to be both in the house?

00:53:42   And where is it going to be as in what does it look like? Is it just a bunch of RJ45 connectors hanging out?

00:53:47   of a wall or ceiling somewhere

00:53:49   And so yeah, I guess getting a patch panel is a thing and it makes sense

00:53:53   I just didn't even think about it. And then we I had a bunch of suggestions for specifically Keystone patch panels

00:53:59   so a lot of patch panels apparently have

00:54:02   Just a gazillion connectors on the back, you know, each individual Ethernet connection has eight strands on the back

00:54:08   You know in your you're tapping all of these yourself and apparently that's a real pain in the butt

00:54:12   So what you can do is you can get Keystone patch panels

00:54:15   We're basically it may not literally be a square

00:54:17   But basically there's an empty square at each spot and then you slide in the particular connector you want there now

00:54:23   Obviously in most cases that would be an Ethernet terminus

00:54:25   But you could put like HDMI there if you so desired so Ron to show again

00:54:30   If I have ten draw this is with regard to why it's better to do Keystone over the other kind of patch panels if I

00:54:36   I have 10 drops and want to add another. I have to pull the entire panel off.

00:54:39   I have those mini wall jacks like Marcos's, Ron.

00:54:41   And along with dealing with the existing 10 cables to get the 11th into place and terminate all of them while hoping none of my

00:54:47   existing connections loosen etc. With the Keystone ones,

00:54:50   you can just deal with them individually. Terminate the Keystone and pop it in the hole through the back.

00:54:54   Not to mention if for some reason you have a need for it, they make Keystones for all sorts of connectors. HDMI, RCA, USB, etc.

00:55:00   I'm almost done, I promise. Cameron McKay also had a great tip. Cameron says,

00:55:05   "I'm glad I had our kids, age 6 and 8 years old, help out with testing the runs. They

00:55:09   plug the laptop into each port, run ifconfig to check for a gigabit duplex link, and then

00:55:14   run the ookla speedtest app to check for expected performance. They loved doing this and felt

00:55:18   proud to be trusted with an important job." Which, another great tip. And then finally,

00:55:23   something I saw I was messing about in the garage, just trying to get an eyeball and

00:55:28   a rough guesstimate of, "Okay, how much cable am I really going to need if I do this? Because

00:55:32   I think I want to terminate everything into the garage. I don't really have a good closet for it

00:55:36   I don't have a basement. I have a I think I said last week

00:55:41   I have a like a meal space rather than a crawl space

00:55:44   And the attic it gets really really hot in the summer

00:55:48   So the base or excuse me

00:55:50   The garage seems like the best place to be the central hub and I was looking at it and just because of the way things

00:55:56   Are laid out in my garage. I think I would need roughly

00:55:59   25 feet or about 8 meters of

00:56:02   cable for each and every drop just to get from the garage either to the crawl space or to the

00:56:09   The ductwork that takes me up into the attic. So each and every single one of my runs

00:56:14   I think is 25 feet at a minimum and if I think about the runs to the office

00:56:17   Which is up and across the house each of those runs is probably a little less than 100 feet

00:56:25   I think if I'm doing this math, right? I might be wrong, but just back in the envelope

00:56:28   It's like 30-ish meters for each of these runs.

00:56:31   And so I'm not yet hitting the 55-meter wall that is 6--

00:56:36   not 6a, but 6 maximum distance for gigabit-- or 10 gigabit,

00:56:42   excuse me.

00:56:43   But I'm close enough that I think--

00:56:44   I really think I want to go 6a.

00:56:46   And I'm probably going to regret it, but here we go.

00:56:48   So that's KC's Ethernet corner.

00:56:51   Again, the Historical Planning Committee is not

00:56:53   on board with this yet, so there may not be any action on

00:56:55   this for a while.

00:56:56   but I will let you two know if there is.

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00:58:46   (jazz music)

00:58:49   - I have other problems in my life, I gotta be honest.

00:58:54   A lot of people are getting these delightful looking

00:58:57   yellow objects, and although I do have one on order,

00:59:00   I am not in the first batch, I am in the second batch

00:59:04   somewhere, don't really know where.

00:59:06   I have no idea when my delightful little yellow object

00:59:09   is arriving, and I'm really jealous.

00:59:12   Jon, do you have a delightful little yellow object?

00:59:15   I don't really play handheld systems just because the RSI issues make it difficult for

00:59:19   me to hold a small thing.

00:59:22   Typical handhelds are very small and not particularly ergonomically friendly to use so I don't really

00:59:27   use handheld stuff but the play date is just so adorable.

00:59:30   I just feel like even if I never played the thing I just wanted to have one just because

00:59:33   it's kind of amazing that it exists at all.

00:59:35   And I know the people at Panic and I think it's just wonderful that a thing they made

00:59:40   so I'm like look I'm going to get this.

00:59:41   the same reason I got the paper copy of Next Generation with Playdate on the cover.

00:59:53   I have a nice pristine paper copy of that and I did order myself a Playdate but I did

00:59:57   enough hemming and hawing over whether I should get one or not that I am just so far back

01:00:02   in the line.

01:00:04   No idea when I'm going to get one.

01:00:07   23 maybe so

01:00:09   You know I console myself because I did get to see and play with the play date. What a wwc

01:00:14   2018 that the play dates been there's a great podcast about that

01:00:19   There's a couple of podcasts about this is the panic podcast that they talk about the play date on now

01:00:23   There's a dedicated play date podcast try to find a link for for the show notes

01:00:27   To hear the story of play date. This is something they've been working on what for a decade now

01:00:32   It's not like they just did this this year. Oh, it's a kickstarter. It'll be done soon

01:00:35   They've been working on it for like at least 10 years

01:00:36   so

01:00:37   so yeah

01:00:38   I did actually hold and play with a play date very early on and I feel very excited and privileged to have done that and

01:00:44   That will tide me over as I wait for my play date to come

01:00:48   I mean, it'll come after I'm at studio, but maybe before the heat death of the universe, so I'm being patient

01:00:54   Do you know what group you're in or what you're like order number is or anything my I'm in like the

01:01:01   thousands and I think like now I don't even know if they've broken into the thousands like people who are getting there is there aren't their

01:01:06   Numbers like in the hundreds or maybe the single that one thousands. I thought they were in the thousands

01:01:10   But I'm at 20,000 whatever group that's in like, you know, I I'm my own fault. I waited too long. What can you do?

01:01:16   Oh, man, I'm in the 11,000. I'm way before you baby. Yeah. Oh

01:01:20   Well, one of us did get one though, and I'm very jealous. Hey

01:01:24   Alright, so I got my play date. I was in group. I was like number four thousand something

01:01:31   and it's just delightful.

01:01:34   So here's the thing, if you want a cutting edge game system,

01:01:39   the Playdate is not one of those.

01:01:41   It has this monochrome, very high resolu,

01:01:45   and again, monochrome is not grayscale.

01:01:48   The pixels on the screen are just black or white,

01:01:51   no shades of gray.

01:01:53   It's very dense, it's a very high resolution screen

01:01:56   for its size and it is not backlit,

01:02:00   which means you are relying on the light

01:02:01   of the room around you, and certain angles

01:02:04   that you hold it against the light

01:02:06   are much more visible than others.

01:02:07   And so it does feel a little bit primitive in the screen

01:02:12   in the sense that, I think the lack of a backlight

01:02:16   is what really makes it feel different and weirdly old,

01:02:21   but yet the extremely high resolution of the screen

01:02:24   makes it feel newer than that.

01:02:25   So I don't know, it's a fun combo.

01:02:27   Did you ever have a front light for your Game Boy?

01:02:30   - I never had a Game Boy.

01:02:31   - So like the original,

01:02:32   obviously the screen technology was way worse.

01:02:34   I think they even use like passive matrix.

01:02:36   - Yes, it was a blurry smeary mess.

01:02:38   - But they didn't have back lights

01:02:40   and they didn't have edge lights,

01:02:41   but you could buy like a basically like a reading light

01:02:44   for your Game Boy.

01:02:45   They would like attach to your Game Boy

01:02:47   and shine the light down to the thing,

01:02:48   which isn't great 'cause it's not like it's E Ink.

01:02:51   It's not like it was a reflective screen,

01:02:53   but if you wanted to play in a dark car ride

01:02:55   on the way home or something,

01:02:56   you literally couldn't see the screen without some kind of light shining out.

01:02:59   So they'd sell you this little attachment.

01:03:00   I know.

01:03:01   I mean, the play date, like to your point,

01:03:03   the play date is much more modern technology, incredibly high DPI.

01:03:06   I'm sure it's incredibly crisp and much better battery life.

01:03:09   But it is in the end, it is not an ink display

01:03:13   and it has no light emitting from it on its own.

01:03:16   If you were in a completely dark room with it,

01:03:17   you would not be able to see anything because it doesn't

01:03:20   unless you have some source of light.

01:03:22   Yeah, exactly.

01:03:23   And I will say, compared to the black and white LCDs of old,

01:03:27   not only, again, is it super high resolution,

01:03:30   but motion is perfectly smooth on it.

01:03:33   Again, the old Game Boy and stuff,

01:03:35   it was just smeary and blurry.

01:03:38   This does not have that problem.

01:03:40   This is incredibly fast, clear.

01:03:43   Like, it's almost like a printed page that is animated.

01:03:48   It's just extremely clear and sharp.

01:03:53   It is not retina in the sense that I can see the pixels,

01:03:56   but they are pretty small.

01:03:58   So the actual hardware is, I can't say enough, small.

01:04:04   Everything about it is very, very small.

01:04:07   Like it fits very comfortably in your hands.

01:04:10   It's almost too small for some adults.

01:04:12   I think some adults might find it too small.

01:04:14   I actually, I think this might be my first hint

01:04:17   that I might be getting slightly farsighted

01:04:20   because it's a little bit hard for me to see

01:04:23   some of the really tiny details

01:04:25   in some of the games on the screen.

01:04:26   - Oh, here we go.

01:04:28   - So we'll see.

01:04:29   I mean, I've never had to correct anything before

01:04:32   and I'm about to turn 40, so that wouldn't be unheard of.

01:04:35   - So do you need to like,

01:04:37   I'm assuming you don't need to extend your arms

01:04:39   at full extension to see the details,

01:04:41   but you can't hold it touching your nose

01:04:43   like you used to be able to.

01:04:45   - Yeah, exactly.

01:04:46   I have to hold it,

01:04:47   the distance that I'm looking down

01:04:49   the keyboard on my desk.

01:04:50   That's about the distance that I have to hold it

01:04:52   to see everything totally sharp.

01:04:53   - That's pretty far.

01:04:55   - So that's probably.

01:04:56   - That's one advantage to having,

01:04:59   to being incredibly nearsighted is that in my old age,

01:05:03   my distance vision has gotten slightly better.

01:05:05   And although my closeup vision has gotten worse,

01:05:07   I can still hold things way closer than Marco.

01:05:09   - Yeah.

01:05:10   (laughing)

01:05:11   So anyway, so the entire system so far,

01:05:14   the first run experience, of course,

01:05:16   it's what you'd expect from Panic.

01:05:18   Very well done, very pleasant experience.

01:05:20   I did a software update earlier today on them

01:05:24   and it shows little fireworks

01:05:25   when it's installing this software update.

01:05:26   Like it's just so cute.

01:05:27   Everything is like so nicely done.

01:05:30   The hardware feels great.

01:05:33   It's USB-C, this yellow plastic, like the matte finish.

01:05:37   It just feels good in the hand.

01:05:38   Buttons are nice and clicky.

01:05:39   The D-pad's like clicky and nice.

01:05:41   It just, everything feels solid and intuitive.

01:05:44   Right now, there's only two games for it

01:05:46   because the way they stage out the game,

01:05:48   so I think it's gonna be two games every week or two

01:05:51   that come out for the first 24 weeks.

01:05:55   They're calling it a season of games,

01:05:57   hence the name Playdate.

01:05:58   It's kind of like scheduled releases automatically

01:06:01   and all these games are included with every purchase

01:06:03   so you don't have to buy them separately.

01:06:04   So that's a cool idea and what this does,

01:06:08   we are in a time now where we live in a world

01:06:13   of incredible abundance, especially in the area

01:06:16   of games, you know, we have millions and millions

01:06:19   of games we could play.

01:06:20   Now, when it comes to like, you know, handheld games,

01:06:24   and especially this has kind of like a,

01:06:26   I wouldn't call it an eight bit vibe necessarily,

01:06:30   because the graphics are significantly more advanced

01:06:32   than you'd ever see on an eight bit system.

01:06:34   The sound is eight bit inspired,

01:06:37   and the gameplay I think is kind of a combination

01:06:39   like eight and 16 bit, but monochrome.

01:06:41   But anyway, I also have upstairs,

01:06:45   an NES and a Genesis and a Super Nintendo

01:06:48   that have game cartridge on that have hundreds

01:06:50   or thousands of games on each cartridge on these ROM carts

01:06:52   and I can pick any game I want from thousands of choices.

01:06:55   And most of the time that means I pick nothing

01:06:57   because it's overwhelming.

01:06:59   And so what's interesting about the Playdate is that

01:07:02   here's this device that right now

01:07:04   I only have two games for.

01:07:05   Only two games are available right now for it.

01:07:09   And next week or whenever they do the next drop,

01:07:11   there will be a couple more.

01:07:13   And so what this made me do

01:07:15   It's kind of like when I got my Sega Genesis,

01:07:18   which was my first video game system when I was a kid,

01:07:21   it came with the game Altered Beast,

01:07:23   which is not a good game.

01:07:25   - Oh, you bite your tongue.

01:07:26   I love that game, and I didn't even have a Genesis.

01:07:28   - It's, yeah.

01:07:29   Anyway, I got it for my birthday in June,

01:07:32   and from June until Christmas that year,

01:07:35   Altered Beast was the only game I had.

01:07:37   (laughing)

01:07:39   And at Christmas, for Christmas, I got two more games.

01:07:43   And then that was the only three games I had for a long time.

01:07:46   - I feel like this is a good definition of the difference

01:07:49   between Sega and Nintendo, the Sega Nintendo experience.

01:07:53   It's one of the complaints about, for example,

01:07:55   Nintendo 64, oh, there's no games for it, right?

01:07:57   So I got a Nintendo 64 and I had one game for it.

01:08:01   But that game was Mario 64.

01:08:04   And I didn't care it was one game

01:08:06   'cause it was like the greatest game of all time.

01:08:08   You had Altered Beast as your one game.

01:08:10   So having just one game for your system

01:08:12   can seem very limiting, but if that one game is Mario 64,

01:08:16   it's all good.

01:08:17   - Yeah, that's true.

01:08:19   I had a friend who got the N64 at launch

01:08:22   and had Mario 64 and Pilotwings,

01:08:25   which were the only two games for a couple of weeks

01:08:26   or something like that.

01:08:27   - Well, what about Wave Race?

01:08:29   Wave Race was the best.

01:08:29   - That wasn't a launch game.

01:08:30   - It wasn't a launch game.

01:08:31   It was literally just-- - Are you sure?

01:08:32   - It was just Mario 64 and Pilotwings for a little while.

01:08:35   - Yeah, you could put Pilotwings,

01:08:36   that can, like, if you have a table that's wobbly,

01:08:38   you could put that under the table

01:08:39   and you could play Mario 64.

01:08:40   (laughing)

01:08:42   That's about the use they got, yeah.

01:08:44   But anyway, so by having this limited choice right now,

01:08:47   there's only these two games,

01:08:48   right now it's this game called Whitewater Wipeout,

01:08:51   which, okay, a long time ago I had,

01:08:53   my cousins had a Sega Master System,

01:08:55   which was the, most people don't even know this existed.

01:08:57   It was Sega's competitor to the original NES.

01:09:01   So it was before the Genesis,

01:09:02   it was an eight-bit system from Sega.

01:09:05   And they had this game called California Games,

01:09:07   which was basically a mini-game collection of like,

01:09:09   you know, hacky sack and surfing and roller skating, everything. White water wipeout for

01:09:15   the play date is very similar to a modern ish reinterpretation of that surfing game

01:09:20   from California games for the second master system. And so I already knew how to play

01:09:25   it. And you basically use the crank to like surf on a wave and make jumps and make spins

01:09:30   and everything to get more points until you crash. And that's a really fun little action

01:09:35   It's fun like and this is I mean I would probably not have found this in an app store

01:09:40   With a hundred games in it or a million games in it, but here it is

01:09:44   I got the plate I take it out and there's two games already on it. I didn't have to buy them

01:09:47   They're just there and it's two games. That's it

01:09:50   Then this other game casual birder is this kind of like a little adventure game where you're going around taking pictures of birds and you know

01:09:56   Solving this these little you know adventure puzzles and I spent like an hour earlier today playing this game

01:10:02   I would never have played this otherwise. I would never have like again found this like in a giant app list or app store or whatever.

01:10:08   I would never have gone through that but here I found it and because it's here and it's my only two games

01:10:14   so I was forced to play it and I really enjoy it actually and I'm glad I was forced to play it and

01:10:19   What's nice about this system is that

01:10:21   You know modern modern gaming I think

01:10:26   Has a severe lack of fun

01:10:31   Most modern games are not as fun as we want them to be.

01:10:36   In fact, I would even say,

01:10:39   I have a very hard time finding almost anything

01:10:42   on iOS that's fun.

01:10:44   iOS games have been so instrumented

01:10:49   to be money extraction machines from people

01:10:53   that it's really hard to find anything on the iPhone

01:10:56   that's new, that's fun.

01:10:59   They do still exist, but they're really few and far between.

01:11:03   And unless a friend somehow finds it and tells you about it,

01:11:07   you'll never find it yourself on the App Store.

01:11:10   It's so little fun to be had out there on iOS these days.

01:11:13   And the big consoles, I think Nintendo's still

01:11:16   pretty good with fun.

01:11:18   They still do it pretty reliably.

01:11:20   The other is it's hard.

01:11:23   There's so many games that are like, hardcore,

01:11:25   let's shoot a bunch of people, arrgh.

01:11:27   And that's not my scene.

01:11:29   And there's so many other games that are like,

01:11:32   here's an artsy look at,

01:11:34   we're gonna run through a field.

01:11:36   And it's like, okay, that's nice,

01:11:37   it's an interesting experience.

01:11:39   Not sure how fun it is.

01:11:40   The Play Date is just fun.

01:11:42   The hardware is fun.

01:11:44   The two games that exist so far are fun.

01:11:47   They're really simple.

01:11:49   And I'm really glad I have this little stupid thing.

01:11:51   Like it's so delightful and fun.

01:11:54   in the broader world of games where that's hard to find now.

01:11:58   These games have no in-app purchases,

01:12:01   they don't want me to sign up for their mailing list,

01:12:04   they don't want to run in the background,

01:12:06   they don't want me to create an account,

01:12:07   they don't want, they don't need me to buy DLC packs,

01:12:11   they don't need me to buy coins or gems

01:12:14   or any of that crap.

01:12:16   They're just games that are made to be

01:12:18   little fun distractions for a little while

01:12:20   on this cute little yellow thing that fits in your pocket.

01:12:23   And that's fantastic.

01:12:24   And even though it's not going to take over the world,

01:12:27   and I probably should get reading glasses to play it,

01:12:31   I still, I'm still really happy that this thing exists.

01:12:35   And there's a whole other world of it

01:12:38   that I haven't explored yet, which is,

01:12:40   they've made some pretty incredible looking

01:12:42   developer tools for it at very different skill levels.

01:12:45   They have like a web-based thing where you can

01:12:47   literally make games with a web app

01:12:49   that seem like it might be a pretty approachable thing

01:12:51   possibly for my son to start doing,

01:12:53   which I want to start exploring soon.

01:12:55   And they also have a C API and a Lua API and all these tools.

01:13:00   So I think this is going to have an interesting developer story

01:13:03   as well.

01:13:05   People keep asking me, hey, you should port Overcast to it.

01:13:08   I don't think that would be a good idea

01:13:10   for a number of reasons.

01:13:12   I don't think this is going to be a device that people ever

01:13:16   carry around when they don't have a phone on them.

01:13:18   and a phone is a much better device

01:13:20   to be a podcast player for so many reasons.

01:13:23   So I don't think that's what this is going to be.

01:13:25   This is not gonna become like,

01:13:27   this is not gonna have a bunch of different types of apps

01:13:29   on it for most people to actually wanna use.

01:13:32   It's gonna have games on it.

01:13:32   It's gonna have fun little games on it.

01:13:35   For that, I think it's going to be a really neat thing

01:13:39   and I really hope it takes off.

01:13:40   I hope people make stuff for it.

01:13:42   I hope the games take off.

01:13:44   I hope that maybe my son gets into making,

01:13:47   you know, playing with the, you know,

01:13:49   experimenting with the game maker things.

01:13:51   Maybe I will, maybe K2 should, I don't know.

01:13:53   - You're gonna make your total annihilation clone for it.

01:13:56   - Yeah, that'll be good. - Oh, that's a solid call.

01:13:58   And you could use the crank to like aim and stuff.

01:14:00   - No, that's not how TA works.

01:14:02   Anyway, so. (laughs)

01:14:02   - Oh no, what am I thinking of then?

01:14:04   - You're thinking of scorched earth.

01:14:06   - That's what I'm thinking of, sorry.

01:14:07   - Yeah, scorched, actually, yeah,

01:14:08   'cause like TA requires a mouse.

01:14:10   But, so, and what's nice about this too,

01:14:11   you know, it has a D-pad and an A and a B button.

01:14:14   And so, again, it's simple, which keeps it--

01:14:17   - And a crank. - And a crank.

01:14:19   So it's simple and it keeps it fun,

01:14:21   but it also, it allows you to do things,

01:14:24   like any kind of game that works really well with a D-pad

01:14:28   generally sucks on a phone.

01:14:30   Like this would be a great thing for Tetris-style games,

01:14:34   stuff that you just can't really play very well on a phone

01:14:38   'cause you need a D-pad to really do it well.

01:14:40   So I'm very much looking forward to what this becomes.

01:14:45   I'm delighted with what it is already

01:14:46   even with just two games on it.

01:14:49   And I'm so happy this exists.

01:14:51   It really is, you know, it's like,

01:14:53   CableSats with personality, like in a product.

01:14:55   It's like this force of positive energy,

01:14:59   shamelessly positive and delightful,

01:15:02   in a category where we really haven't seen

01:15:04   a lot of that recently.

01:15:05   So I'm very happy to see this.

01:15:07   It is refreshing and promising and just fun and delightful.

01:15:12   And so I strongly suggest, you know,

01:15:14   if you really want one, you can buy one on eBay right now

01:15:16   for about $450.

01:15:19   I wouldn't necessarily think it's worth that much,

01:15:21   but I strongly suggest if you are on the fence about this,

01:15:26   put in a pre-order, get on the wait list,

01:15:28   you can always cancel if you want to,

01:15:30   get on the wait list for it because this thing, I think,

01:15:32   is gonna be a lot of fun for a while.

01:15:34   - What is the actual price?

01:15:34   Is it $200?

01:15:36   - 200 bucks, it's like 180 or 200 with the little flip case.

01:15:39   And I did buy the flip cases, little purple things,

01:15:42   and they're nice too.

01:15:43   I mean, I don't have much to say about them yet.

01:15:44   They're fine, but I'm mostly holding it without the case,

01:15:48   'cause it's just this cool little yellow thing

01:15:49   that's more delightful without it, I think.

01:15:51   - And you keep saying it's only two games,

01:15:53   but it's like, just to be clear, it's time to release.

01:15:55   Like, it's instead of like Netflix dropping

01:15:57   the whole season at once, they do,

01:15:59   they're doling out the game slowly,

01:16:00   so that's supposed to be part of the fun,

01:16:02   and your doling out of games begins

01:16:04   when you buy your device, right?

01:16:06   So it's not like everyone is in sync with each other.

01:16:08   - Oh, I didn't realize that.

01:16:09   That's a really good, smart way to do it.

01:16:11   - Well, if you listen to the podcast,

01:16:13   they talk about the debates they had,

01:16:14   Like, should they try to make it so there's like, you know,

01:16:16   everyone's on the same schedule

01:16:17   or should they try to do a timed

01:16:18   and there's plus and minuses of each one's.

01:16:20   Again, lots of discussion, this is the podcast,

01:16:22   but yeah, the whole first season of games,

01:16:23   as far as I know, is done, right?

01:16:25   They're just doling them out to you a little bit.

01:16:26   So it's supposed to be like,

01:16:27   not only are the individual games fun,

01:16:29   but it's like on a regular schedule,

01:16:31   you pick up your thing and oh,

01:16:32   here's a new game that wasn't there before.

01:16:35   And you don't have to select the game or whatever.

01:16:36   The games just arrive on your play date

01:16:38   according to the schedule of the season.

01:16:40   And by the end, you have them all.

01:16:42   And of course, you know, we talked about this when we talked about Playdate, really, not

01:16:45   only is there a web-based SDK and a regular one, but every single Playdate is essentially

01:16:49   a dev kit, there is no special dev kit version of that.

01:16:52   Anyone who owns a Playdate can make games for it, and you don't have to go through an

01:16:56   app store to distribute those games.

01:16:57   You can give them to anybody, they can put them on, there is no "side loading", it is

01:17:01   an entirely open platform.

01:17:03   So if you make a game for Playdate, you don't even have to tell Panic about it, you can

01:17:06   just give it to all your friends and play it.

01:17:08   It is like the PC of handheld consoles, which really hasn't existed in a popular form anyway.

01:17:15   The personal computer has been like that, but most game consoles, and especially handheld

01:17:19   game consoles, have been owned by some platform owner that controls what kind of games get

01:17:22   to go on it.

01:17:24   Not true of Playdate.

01:17:25   So if you get a Playdate, you can make a game for it, you can get a game from anyone else,

01:17:29   you can put the game on there, and by the way also, you can buy future seasons of these

01:17:34   Playdate games from Panic.

01:17:37   season comes with the thing and then after that I think you'll have to buy the seasons

01:17:41   if you want to. But if you don't you can just download free games that people put up on

01:17:44   their websites or whatever. Yeah, I think it's going to be so fun to go through that

01:17:48   because like you know part of the appeal as I was saying was like I only have these two

01:17:53   games and so I'm actually playing them both and I'm actually spending decent time with

01:17:56   them both. If it just came with 24 or 100 games available for it I wouldn't be doing

01:18:03   that. I would like pick and choose. I would have trouble choosing, finding one. Oh that

01:18:06   one looks kind of, I don't know if I'd like that, I'll skip it. Now I'm actually just

01:18:09   trying them all. And so by having that kind of gradual trickle of new games coming in,

01:18:13   it is making me try them all just like I used to do with my old consoles back when I had

01:18:18   no money and games cost $60. So I would get one new game maybe every couple of months.

01:18:26   It wasn't a frequent thing to get a new game and then be able to spend a lot of time with

01:18:31   it because it's all I had. And so to have that in this little thing, I think it's going

01:18:34   to be a lot of fun and this has made me smile more than any game I've found on my phone

01:18:40   in the last year.

01:18:41   And to be clear, there's a blog post on the Playdate website where they talk about a bunch

01:18:47   of other games that you can either buy or get right now. Like, you can buy, not through

01:18:53   Panic, through other people, you can buy other games. Like, there's one called Bloom that's

01:18:59   ten dollars and they say in the blog post, "Bloom is the first commercial Playdate game

01:19:03   outside of our season. And so there are other things you could get if you so

01:19:07   desired, but you certainly don't have to. And like you said, you can wait and

01:19:11   just get more when they show up. There's also a pocket planner, which I think is

01:19:14   very funny, where you can... it's like a calendar on your playdate. I want one. I'm

01:19:21   glad I pre-ordered, because when the pre-orders were starting this was

01:19:25   classic Casey Fomo, right? Like, "Oh, I don't think I want this. Oh, but everyone else

01:19:29   is getting it. Oh, I don't know. I don't want to be that guy that doesn't have one.

01:19:32   and it looks neat, okay fine, I'll buy it.

01:19:34   And I don't know if I'll use it after the first year,

01:19:37   but for a couple hundred bucks to try something out

01:19:39   from some people I at least casually know,

01:19:42   I think it's worth it, and I'm looking forward

01:19:44   to getting mine whenever that may be.

01:19:45   So hopefully sooner rather than later.

01:19:47   - Yeah, here's a general strategy.

01:19:49   If all your tech friends are hyping up this thing

01:19:52   that you think you might someday want

01:19:54   and there's a pre-order thing,

01:19:57   if you can afford to, just place the pre-order,

01:19:59   because you can usually cancel them.

01:20:01   They usually let you cancel them very easily

01:20:04   and either get the refund or never having been charged

01:20:07   in the first place.

01:20:08   And so just put the order in,

01:20:10   because it can't hurt to have the order in

01:20:12   as long as you can afford to actually buy the thing.

01:20:15   It can't hurt to have the order in

01:20:16   and you can always cancel it

01:20:18   if you change your mind down the road.

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01:22:19   (upbeat music)

01:22:23   - We do have to pour one out

01:22:24   for something that's canceled though,

01:22:26   and the iPod Touch is no more.

01:22:29   It has been discontinued.

01:22:30   The music lives on, gentlemen, but the iPod Touch does not.

01:22:33   What an odd news release it was.

01:22:36   -It was such a weird press release, right?

01:22:38   So the story is that Apple's not gonna be selling

01:22:40   the iPod Touch anymore.

01:22:41   It's still available while supplies last,

01:22:42   but once they're all sold out, that'll be it, right?

01:22:45   And they have a press release. Fine, whatever.

01:22:47   The press release spends a long time

01:22:50   talking about all the different ways

01:22:53   that Apple has available to you to listen to music.

01:22:56   "The Music Lives On" is the title,

01:22:58   and it says the iPod touch, subtitle iPod touch will be,

01:23:01   not the iPod touch, because Apple would never say that,

01:23:03   iPod touch, no article, will be available

01:23:06   while supplies last.

01:23:07   And then it just goes on talking about the iPod

01:23:10   from 20 years ago, and it talks all about

01:23:11   the different kinds of iPods,

01:23:13   and has a little slideshow showing them,

01:23:15   and then saying all the different ways

01:23:16   you can listen to music today,

01:23:17   and just like, couple paragraphs of that,

01:23:21   and then in the very last sentence

01:23:24   of the entire press release, it says,

01:23:25   customers can purchase iPod touch through Apple.com,

01:23:27   Apple store locations and Apple authorized reacceleration

01:23:29   while supplies last.

01:23:30   That is the entirety of the content of this press release

01:23:33   that tells you anything about the fate of the iPod touch

01:23:36   other than the subtitle that I just read, which is weird.

01:23:39   But anyway, so yeah, this, you know, as Marco said

01:23:43   in another channel, and I'm sure as many people thought,

01:23:45   Apple was still selling iPod touches?

01:23:47   Yeah, Apple was still selling iPod touches.

01:23:49   I mean, it hasn't been updated in three years,

01:23:51   but even that, Apple updated the iPod touch three years ago?

01:23:55   Yeah, they did, they put different guts in it.

01:23:57   - Well, I mean, sort of, yeah.

01:23:59   So the iPod Touch has the guts, the current iPod Touch,

01:24:02   I guess now outgoing iPod Touch,

01:24:04   has the guts of the iPhone 7, roughly.

01:24:07   It's the iPhone 7 CPU, I think the camera's probably worse,

01:24:09   but otherwise-- - No Touch ID.

01:24:10   - Yeah, no Touch, yeah, but it's the approximate guts

01:24:13   of the iPhone 7, and so that's already,

01:24:15   most people don't realize that the last three major versions

01:24:20   of iOS, 13, 14, and 15, all have the same supported hardware

01:24:25   So 14 and 15 did not drop any supported devices.

01:24:29   Like, you know, when iOS 16 comes out,

01:24:31   presumably being in beta in about a month

01:24:34   and then coming out this fall, it

01:24:36   would not be unreasonable for them

01:24:38   to drop multiple old hardware generations.

01:24:41   Right now, the 6s is the minimum supported CPU.

01:24:44   It's possible iOS 16 will drop the 6s and the 7 CPUs.

01:24:49   So it's possible they're about to release a version of iOS

01:24:51   that drops support for this version of the iPod Touch

01:24:54   anyway and that wouldn't be unreasonable given its age.

01:24:57   So anyway, this announcement, again, number one,

01:25:02   I think most people were like, wait,

01:25:03   they were still selling the iPod Touch.

01:25:05   But everyone's saying, oh, now the iPod is finally dead.

01:25:10   And I understand the sentiment, but I think the iPod died

01:25:13   as soon as it became an iOS only product line.

01:25:16   Like the iPod Touch is not an iPod, it's a cut down iPhone.

01:25:21   And it was never an iPod.

01:25:23   they use the name, but really, when you say iPod,

01:25:28   that's not what most people think of.

01:25:29   Most people think of the music players

01:25:32   that didn't run iOS that had some kind of wheels

01:25:36   or buttons or whatever.

01:25:37   Like, even the later generation iPod Nanos

01:25:40   that had the kind of fake iOS-looking home screen

01:25:44   with the touch screen, most people didn't even know

01:25:47   those existed and have never used one.

01:25:49   When you say iPod, you're thinking of the iPod Classic,

01:25:52   the iPod mini, the iPod nano, like that's maybe the shuffle

01:25:56   if you are a glutton for pain.

01:25:58   That is what you think of.

01:26:00   - The shuffle was one of the best iPods ever made.

01:26:02   What are you talking about?

01:26:04   - Disagree.

01:26:05   But that product line ended a long time ago.

01:26:09   To say now that this thing that was basically an iPhone,

01:26:13   that, the death of that thing is the death of the iPod line,

01:26:16   I think is, there's a lot of asterisks on that.

01:26:19   So I, you know, I'm not, I don't wanna yuck on anyone's yum

01:26:22   but I think the end of the iPod happened a long time ago.

01:26:27   - Yeah, I mean this is, this price release doesn't say,

01:26:28   but this is the end of the iPod branding.

01:26:31   Like Apple, they used the iPod brand,

01:26:33   they slapped it on this thing that's not an iPod,

01:26:35   because the iPod brand had value.

01:26:36   And because also people knew what that was

01:26:38   and it communicated back in 2007 that you could buy this

01:26:43   and it was like an iPod, like it was not a phone.

01:26:45   It's basically what it's communicating, not phone.

01:26:48   There's no, you're not gonna make any calls from it.

01:26:49   It's an iPod, but it's an iPod Touch.

01:26:51   it's an iPod that you can touch.

01:26:52   Really, it's an iPhone without the phone.

01:26:54   But they put the iPod branding on it

01:26:56   because that was a good way to communicate its purpose

01:26:59   and to put it into a family of incredibly successful products

01:27:02   with a name that people loved.

01:27:04   And the retiring of the name,

01:27:05   the retiring of Apple will no longer sell any products

01:27:08   with iPod in the name.

01:27:11   That means that not only is the iPod gone,

01:27:13   which, like Marco said,

01:27:15   it's been, the iPod went away a while ago,

01:27:17   but that the brand is now so kind of retro

01:27:21   that it no longer has enough value for Apple to continue to stick it on a product.

01:27:25   And furthermore, the product that they're making here doesn't really have a place in

01:27:29   the market anymore for them to be worth making.

01:27:32   So arguably it didn't have a place in the market for many years, which is why they had

01:27:35   to go years and years without updating it.

01:27:37   But basically the role of a touch device that's not a phone, that is less expensive than a

01:27:42   phone, has been filled, for kids, has been mostly filled by cheaper iPads or by hand-me-down

01:27:49   phones or used phones. Now you can say, okay, well nothing really fills this role, and I

01:27:53   would agree there is nothing that is exactly as cheap and exactly as small and exactly

01:27:57   as convenient and without the caveats about trying to find used phones and their batteries

01:28:01   are worse and blah, blah, blah. Like there's, you're right that it doesn't actually, there

01:28:05   is kind of a hole, but it's a tiny hole. And in general, I think history has shown that

01:28:10   kids would rather have a small iPad or a big iPad or any, literally any iPad than this

01:28:17   stinky thing because kids aren't on the go and want to have this device as they go off.

01:28:21   That's a phone, right?

01:28:23   And for not-phone, kids prefer something with a bigger screen because who wouldn't?

01:28:27   Even an iPod mini, iPad mini has a bigger screen than this.

01:28:30   So this is a product that really no longer has any place in our lives and it goes out

01:28:35   and with it leaves the iPod product line which I feel like hasn't had a cachet in a really

01:28:41   long time and certainly for the kids that you would be buying this iPod touch for, they

01:28:46   have never even seen an iPod and have no idea what it is.

01:28:49   It's just a thing that their parents tell them about.

01:28:51   So it's sad.

01:28:54   As we talked about ages ago on the show, I loved my iPod Touch.

01:28:57   It was what I bought when I didn't want to pay for a plan

01:28:59   for my iPhone.

01:29:00   And I used iPod Touch just for many years.

01:29:02   And I still haven't seen anyone mention it

01:29:04   until people came close.

01:29:05   I always bring it up.

01:29:07   There was a very, very, very, very brief moment in time

01:29:10   when the iPod Touch was the highest performing iOS device

01:29:12   that you could--

01:29:13   Oh, yeah.

01:29:14   Before it was called iOS.

01:29:15   It was called iPhone OS and it ran on your iPod touch,

01:29:18   which I wasn't even called iPhone OS.

01:29:19   It was just a firmware, right?

01:29:20   That ran on your iPod touch.

01:29:22   I think it was the,

01:29:24   it must've been the first generation iPod touch.

01:29:26   Actually it was a little bit faster than the phone.

01:29:28   They were always thinner, as Gruber talked about.

01:29:30   Like if you wanted to see the future of the iPhone,

01:29:32   you used to be able to look at the iPod touch

01:29:33   'cause it was the iPhone without the phone

01:29:35   and the phone bits used to take up a lot of room in there.

01:29:37   And so the iPod touch was always thinner.

01:29:39   So I have an attic full of old iPod touches

01:29:41   and iPod touch was stolen out of my car,

01:29:43   as I mentioned in a previous show.

01:29:45   I've had a lot of them, I had a lot of affection for them,

01:29:47   but it's very clear that the time for this product

01:29:50   has come and gone.

01:29:51   - Yeah, and if anybody out there is feeling very nostalgic

01:29:56   about the iPod era, rather than jumping to go try to buy

01:30:00   one of these outgoing, you know, slow old iOS devices.

01:30:04   - I think they're kind of already sold out

01:30:05   from what I've been seeing, like I think--

01:30:07   - Yeah, I think so.

01:30:08   - Anyone who was even, like, 'cause a lot of people are like,

01:30:09   oh, this is a testing device,

01:30:11   or it's nice to have a slow device,

01:30:12   or I just wanna have one for my kid.

01:30:13   everybody who is just like, you know, thinking about that,

01:30:17   but never actually following through and buying it,

01:30:20   as soon as they announce cancel,

01:30:21   I think all those people just said, "Buy."

01:30:23   'Cause it's cheap enough, it's like an impulse purchase,

01:30:25   and they are very difficult to find now.

01:30:27   - Yeah, and I have heard, you know,

01:30:28   I said on Twitter like who even use these anymore,

01:30:31   and I have heard from a lot of people who said like,

01:30:33   they have some kind of special use for them.

01:30:35   Like, one of them was like people

01:30:36   who do audio tours in museums,

01:30:40   they have these things in special record cases,

01:30:42   or people who have certain things

01:30:43   where they have to give a fleet of them

01:30:45   to children in school for some reason.

01:30:47   There are people who use these,

01:30:50   but yeah, I think that's a dwindling group.

01:30:53   And the fact is that if this market

01:30:56   was already being served enough

01:30:59   by still selling iPhone 7 guts in 2022,

01:31:04   then it probably is not that big of a market.

01:31:06   But that being said,

01:31:07   so if you want to experience iPod nostalgia,

01:31:11   here's what you do.

01:31:12   Don't buy one of these things for $200.

01:31:14   Go on eBay and buy a second generation iPod Nano

01:31:18   for like 30 bucks.

01:31:19   'Cause there's always, I know this 'cause I did this

01:31:22   for as part of a thing I was doing last fall.

01:31:25   I actually bought an iPod Nano from eBay for 30 bucks.

01:31:29   It had like a refurbished with a new battery in it

01:31:32   and it was fine and it worked and it was really fun.

01:31:36   And modern Mac OS still supports syncing to an iPod

01:31:41   as long as you can dig up a dock cable somewhere

01:31:43   or possibly buy one of those on eBay as well.

01:31:46   Or it might come with it depending on what kind of seller

01:31:48   you buy it from.

01:31:49   But as long as you still have or can get a dock cable,

01:31:52   and you can plug it into any modern Mac,

01:31:55   and you can sync songs to it from the now Finder interface

01:32:00   for plugging in an iPod, and it works.

01:32:02   The iPod Nano 2nd Gen, I think, is the epitome

01:32:05   of what people think of when they think of what an iPod is.

01:32:10   You're usually not thinking of the later,

01:32:13   again, like the big, kind of all screen models.

01:32:15   You're even not really thinking of the ones

01:32:17   that have really fancy color to show video

01:32:21   and big album art and everything,

01:32:23   the ones that look like iOS.

01:32:24   That's not what you're thinking of.

01:32:25   You're thinking of either an iPod Classic or an iPod Nano

01:32:28   and even then, like the earlier Nanos,

01:32:30   not even the later Nanos.

01:32:32   And you can get that experience for 30 bucks on eBay.

01:32:35   And then you can try it for a few days

01:32:39   and you can realize, okay, this was fun and nostalgic,

01:32:42   but it's so much better to just use my phone

01:32:45   with my wireless earbuds and my streaming services

01:32:48   and my cell connection if I forgot to download something

01:32:51   and my easier navigation and my much larger collection.

01:32:54   You start realizing, okay, actually,

01:32:57   there's a reason why we replaced

01:32:59   all of this category with phones.

01:33:01   And that's where it really killed the iPod

01:33:02   was when we all got iPhones.

01:33:05   Then there was no reason,

01:33:07   All of us, we loved our iPods.

01:33:09   And when we got our phones, we would tell ourselves,

01:33:11   I'm still gonna carry the iPod too.

01:33:13   Maybe it'll serve its role,

01:33:14   maybe I'll keep it in the car or whatever.

01:33:15   And they just slowly fell out of use

01:33:17   because phones are just so much better for this role.

01:33:20   So this is a wonderful piece of nostalgia.

01:33:23   It's great to go the eBay route

01:33:25   if you wanna have some fun with one for a little while,

01:33:28   but then you'll move past it

01:33:29   because what we have now is better.

01:33:32   So it was a great era, that era is over.

01:33:35   - Yeah, my first Apple device of any sort

01:33:37   was the original iPod Nano, which I coveted.

01:33:40   I wanted one so badly.

01:33:42   And if I'm not mistaken,

01:33:43   it was one of Aaron's first big gifts to me.

01:33:46   I think that's correct.

01:33:47   I'm pretty sure that's right.

01:33:48   And I don't even know if I still have it or not,

01:33:50   but I wanted that thing so bad when I got it, I loved it.

01:33:55   Gosh, did I love that thing.

01:33:57   And I take a slight issue with what you said earlier, Marco.

01:33:59   The iPod, I think, died with iOS 5,

01:34:03   and I was running through the screenshots on Wikipedia.

01:34:06   I had forgotten that the music app on iOS 1 through 4,

01:34:10   iPhone OS 1 through 4, was called iPod.

01:34:12   And it was iOS 5 that it became--

01:34:14   - Was it? - Music.

01:34:16   Yeah, I did not remember that at all.

01:34:17   - Oh, wow.

01:34:18   And that's not just when the iPod touched,

01:34:20   on the iPhone build as well?

01:34:21   - No, no, no, no.

01:34:22   Not three separate devices, are you kidding?

01:34:23   There's an iPod app, there's Internet Communicator,

01:34:26   which is Safari, and there's the phone icon.

01:34:28   - Yep. - Oh, wow.

01:34:29   - I had completely forgotten about that.

01:34:31   And so anyway-- - I was right about that too.

01:34:32   - So iOS 5, when it became music,

01:34:34   that's when the iPod really truly died.

01:34:36   All right, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:34:38   - No, I gotta do one more canceled product.

01:34:39   - No, it's gonna take too long.

01:34:41   - It's not gonna take too long, it'll be fine.

01:34:42   - Okay, here we go, everyone look at your talk.

01:34:44   - You have tons to say about this?

01:34:45   I don't think you do.

01:34:46   - I have hours of content about this, Jon.

01:34:48   Hours, I tell you.

01:34:50   - This is a few weeks old, but it's in the same category

01:34:54   that Apple canceling products,

01:34:55   they finally put to bed Mac OS Server.

01:34:59   And you may be wondering, what the heck is Mac OS Server?

01:35:01   Do you mean Mac OS X server?

01:35:03   No, I do not.

01:35:04   This is another one of those products

01:35:05   that Apple had for many years that slowly faded away,

01:35:09   kind of like the iPod slowly faded away

01:35:11   until finally it goes away and people are like,

01:35:13   what's going away?

01:35:14   What are you talking about?

01:35:15   Not to give too much history, but back before Mac OS X,

01:35:20   there was a product Apple sold called Mac OS X server

01:35:23   that was based on, it was not based on the same code base

01:35:27   that Mac OS X 10.0 was based on.

01:35:28   It was based on the Rhapsody code base from ages ago.

01:35:31   So it's really confusing.

01:35:32   They released a product called Mac OS X Server, right?

01:35:35   But that was not based on Mac OS X.

01:35:38   Then Mac OS X came out, you know,

01:35:40   and we got Jaguar, Puma, you know,

01:35:41   Cheetah, Jaguar, Puma, blah, blah, blah,

01:35:43   the whole nine yards, right?

01:35:44   And they also introduced a new product

01:35:46   called Mac OS X Server that had really no relation

01:35:49   to the previous Mac OS X Server,

01:35:51   but was instead the server variant of Mac OS X.

01:35:55   So, you know, you get Mac OS X 10.2 Jaguar,

01:35:59   and you'd get the server variant.

01:36:01   I forget what year the server variant came out.

01:36:02   I don't remember all 10 through 10.

01:36:03   I never reviewed Mac OS X server, right?

01:36:05   But it existed as a companion

01:36:07   with the regular Mac OS X thing.

01:36:09   And then at some point in the past,

01:36:11   they said, you know what, we're not gonna do that anymore.

01:36:13   We're not gonna have a server version and a regular version

01:36:15   'cause we're just tired of supporting the server version.

01:36:17   And we're just gonna have one version.

01:36:19   We're gonna call it OS X by this point,

01:36:21   I think it was called.

01:36:22   And the server part of it will just be an app

01:36:26   or a set of apps that you'll be able to get and install

01:36:29   on plain old Mac OS X that will provide you

01:36:31   server functionality.

01:36:32   So if people are wondering what is Mac OS X server,

01:36:35   what did it have, it had like a mail server

01:36:37   and you could manage other people's Macs with it

01:36:40   and what else did it have?

01:36:41   Like a directory service, like it had server type stuff

01:36:44   that you could run on a Mac if you wanted a Mac

01:36:46   to be a server.

01:36:47   Usually a server for a bunch of other Macs

01:36:49   but the services would be cross platform.

01:36:51   And they just consolidate a lot of stuff into apps

01:36:54   or an app called server or whatever.

01:36:56   And so Mac OS X server was no longer a product

01:37:00   that you could buy.

01:37:01   But you could still buy Mac OS X or whatever it was called

01:37:05   and then put this server stuff on it.

01:37:06   This disinclination is now we're not even

01:37:08   going to give you that server stuff.

01:37:09   We're tired of having a directory server.

01:37:11   We're tired of having a mail server, a file sharing

01:37:14   server, a time machine server.

01:37:16   We're not going to have that as a separate product.

01:37:19   Most of those things have been built into plain old Mac OS.

01:37:23   So you don't need a special server variant.

01:37:25   It's just part of the OS now.

01:37:26   and the things that weren't built in,

01:37:28   we're just not going to make them anymore.

01:37:31   And Apple points you to third parties

01:37:32   that do things like this.

01:37:33   So if you wanna use mobile device management,

01:37:35   there are third party ones for that.

01:37:37   If you wanna use some other feature

01:37:38   that is not built into the US,

01:37:40   here are some third party companies that provide that.

01:37:42   And I feel like this kind of,

01:37:44   this is the sort of end of the road,

01:37:46   and not really the end,

01:37:46   because like it's been,

01:37:47   the writing's been on the wall for ages, right?

01:37:49   But Apple slowly but surely exiting the server space

01:37:55   saying that's not what Macs are for.

01:37:57   You don't run a Mac to be a server

01:38:00   for your fleet of other computers, right?

01:38:03   Apple wanted to be in that business

01:38:05   back when the PC was kind of the center of gravity

01:38:07   of the market and then it tried to play there.

01:38:10   Apple made servers, the X server,

01:38:11   recommended Mac server, they made a server OS,

01:38:14   they said you can use a Mac to be a server

01:38:17   and some people were into that but not enough people

01:38:20   and just eventually Apple said, you know what, Microsoft,

01:38:23   because that's what we're talking about here,

01:38:25   you can have this market.

01:38:27   And so for a brief moment, Apple was like,

01:38:29   we're gonna fight against Exchange and Active Directory,

01:38:31   and we're gonna have our own products,

01:38:33   and some of them are gonna be open source,

01:38:34   and we're gonna be a great server for Macs,

01:38:36   well, we can serve other things too,

01:38:37   and you can buy a really nice looking server

01:38:39   and rack mount it, and pay way more than you'd pay

01:38:41   for an Intel, Unix, or Windows based server,

01:38:44   but it looks really nice,

01:38:46   and we'll run our server OS on it,

01:38:49   and it just never really got going

01:38:52   for lots of very good reasons that never really got traction.

01:38:56   And so I don't-- this is not a surprise

01:38:58   that Apple is just finally completely totally exiting

01:39:01   and saying, look, we're not even pretending

01:39:03   we're doing anything remotely in this space.

01:39:06   We'll just disband all those teams.

01:39:07   Any part of this that we thought was useful,

01:39:09   we shoved into Mac OS proper, and it is there,

01:39:12   and it is useful, and you can have it.

01:39:13   But we're not pretending Macs are servers.

01:39:16   And kind of like the iPod Touch, like, OK, this all makes sense.

01:39:20   You write it down on paper, like, I can see,

01:39:22   This is not a market Apple wants to be in.

01:39:24   But in kind of the same way as Apple getting out

01:39:26   of the wifi market, well, maybe not quite the same way,

01:39:28   but like I find it a little bit sad

01:39:30   because it is essentially, you know,

01:39:33   reseeding the market to Microsoft.

01:39:36   Not that I have anything particularly against Microsoft,

01:39:38   but Microsoft's complete dominance in the world

01:39:41   of corporate IT of like, hey, you have a company

01:39:45   and people in your company have computers

01:39:46   and you need to have like a directory service

01:39:49   so people can look up other people's email addresses

01:39:50   and you need to have a mail server and so on and so forth,

01:39:53   having Microsoft continue to just completely dominate

01:39:56   that field does not make me particularly happy.

01:39:59   And it's not just because everyone ends up getting Slack

01:40:02   and liking it and then Slack gets replaced

01:40:03   with Teams that everyone hates, but that is part of it.

01:40:06   That's an example of-- - That's so true.

01:40:07   That is so true in so many places right now.

01:40:09   - Even before Slack and Teams.

01:40:11   It's like example of just like, look,

01:40:13   you're gonna have to pay Microsoft anyway

01:40:15   'cause every company pays Microsoft

01:40:17   'cause there's something you need from Microsoft.

01:40:18   And why do you need something?

01:40:19   you want your people to have corporate email, right?

01:40:21   And you want to do, like, anything you think you want to do,

01:40:24   Microsoft is the default.

01:40:25   And if you decide, well, I don't want to pay Microsoft

01:40:27   for everything, not that it's impossible

01:40:31   to find alternatives, like Google will sell you

01:40:32   all that stuff too, right?

01:40:33   But Microsoft is still dominant in this business.

01:40:36   Microsoft is the best at it,

01:40:37   they've been doing it the longest.

01:40:40   And when I say the best at it, they're the best

01:40:42   at selling companies things that companies want to buy

01:40:45   or think they want to buy.

01:40:47   But in my experience using these products,

01:40:49   Google's not great at it either,

01:40:51   but like Slack is the great example.

01:40:53   How about someone who's not Microsoft or Google?

01:40:55   Can they make a product that can help enterprises

01:40:57   do the things that enterprises wanna do?

01:41:00   And that users don't actively hate?

01:41:02   Yeah, they could.

01:41:03   And for a brief moment, there was a product

01:41:04   that people didn't, you know, same thing with Dropbox.

01:41:06   For a brief moment, there was a product

01:41:08   that users didn't actively hate

01:41:09   that businesses seemed to like.

01:41:10   But Dropbox was replaced by either Box or OneDrive,

01:41:15   and the Google stuff is replaced by Microsoft

01:41:17   and it's just, I know I'm kind of out of the corporate

01:41:21   rat race and this is really not relevant

01:41:22   to my life anymore, but I look at this and I say,

01:41:25   there was a moment that people never really believed

01:41:28   was real, but it really was when Apple was like,

01:41:31   you know what, we're gonna get right in there

01:41:33   and we're gonna fight for this market

01:41:35   and we're gonna fight for this market with Apple-y products,

01:41:37   unashamed Apple-y products, and they fought and they lost

01:41:41   and they lost big and then they ran away.

01:41:44   And I feel like it's not good for no one to be fighting for this.

01:41:48   You can say, "Well, Google's fighting Microsoft," but on the other hand, Microsoft's fighting

01:41:52   Google.

01:41:53   I feel like just the number of competitors is too low and none of them seem to have—I

01:41:59   don't know.

01:42:01   There's a reason I'm a Mac user and not a Windows user and that appeals to my tastes.

01:42:06   And I guess there's a reason that businesses choose Windows for their servers, even as

01:42:10   businesses increasingly choose Macs for their end user things.

01:42:17   I feel like I don't want to live in a world where the only two choices are Microsoft and

01:42:21   Google and that Microsoft is dominant.

01:42:23   I think that is emblematic of the entire enterprise software problem where the people who choose

01:42:27   what to buy are not the people who use the software.

01:42:32   Users continue to be somewhat put upon by the corporate solutions they're forced to

01:42:37   to deal with and every other competitor that tries

01:42:39   to fight for that market ends up getting squished

01:42:42   and running away.

01:42:43   - I'm sorry, Jon.

01:42:45   All right, let's do some Ask ATP,

01:42:46   and Robert Boyle writes,

01:42:47   in your discussions of the MacStudio versus MacPro,

01:42:49   you focus on modularity differences.

01:42:51   In the past, you've said that ECC RAM was a big issue

01:42:54   for you, which the M1 doesn't have.

01:42:57   Do you think Apple will offer ECC RAM

01:42:59   in the Apple Silicon MacPro?

01:43:01   - So the point of ECC RAM is, you know,

01:43:03   if there are errors, they'll be detected,

01:43:05   error correcting code, right?

01:43:06   So we can figure out if there's some kind of RAM error.

01:43:09   And the more RAM you get, the more likely

01:43:11   you are to encounter a RAM error, just because it's

01:43:13   a lot of averages.

01:43:13   You just keep adding more and more bits.

01:43:15   And if the rate of bit error is the same as you add more

01:43:18   of them, the chances of one of those bits being wrong goes up.

01:43:20   And big computers, like big Pro Max tend to have a lot of RAM.

01:43:24   So it'd be a good idea to have ECC RAM.

01:43:26   But this whole thing of having ECC RAM

01:43:28   is kind of a nomenclature in technology from--

01:43:33   not the distant past, but the reasonable past,

01:43:35   where that was the way we would do it.

01:43:36   you know, SIMs or DIMMs.

01:43:38   There would be these chips that had RAM chips on them.

01:43:40   You'd shove them into a slot,

01:43:42   and there was a variety of that that had --

01:43:44   ECC RAM that had error-correcting codes.

01:43:46   There would be extra circuitry to detect

01:43:47   when an error was encountered

01:43:50   and either correct the error if it could

01:43:51   or fail if the error was too bad or whatever.

01:43:54   And that was important for servers

01:43:56   because they had a lot of RAM, and there were a lot of them,

01:43:58   and if they had an error, you'd rather have them fail

01:44:00   or, you know, fix a one-bit error if they could

01:44:02   or fail if they needed to rather than just to continue

01:44:04   as if everything's fine with an incorrect error.

01:44:06   So if I could say it's a banking application or something

01:44:08   like that, where you don't want a bit error causing

01:44:11   the wrong amount of money to go somewhere,

01:44:13   you don't want that to silently just happen, right?

01:44:15   So that's what you're trying to do is make a more reliable

01:44:19   version of RAM when you can detect when errors happen

01:44:22   and correct them if possible.

01:44:23   Lots of the more modern RAM technologies,

01:44:26   if you look at what they're doing under the covers,

01:44:28   have some internal system for detecting and handling

01:44:32   and even sometimes correcting RAM,

01:44:34   but we don't call those quote unquote ECC RAM

01:44:36   'cause it is not exactly like the RAM of the old days

01:44:39   with ECC technology in them.

01:44:41   So all that said, I don't actually know

01:44:45   if any of the RAM Apple uses in any of its M1 type things

01:44:49   have any kind of error correcting circuitry

01:44:52   or technology whatsoever.

01:44:55   I know they're not advertised or called ECC RAM

01:44:58   and they're not the same as the ECC RAM

01:45:00   that was in like a 2008 Mac Pro for sure,

01:45:03   But I don't actually know if the underlying whatever it is,

01:45:06   you know, LPDDR for RAM itself incorporates

01:45:11   some of the sort of circuitry techniques and technologies

01:45:14   that ECC rammed it.

01:45:15   So I think for the ProMac, I don't

01:45:19   think Apple is going to go to any particularly heroic

01:45:21   measures, but it could be that whatever RAM Apple ends up

01:45:24   using, perhaps if not in the first ARM-based ProMac,

01:45:27   or maybe the second or third one,

01:45:29   will incorporate some kind of error-correcting technology,

01:45:34   just because the underlying industry-standard RAM

01:45:38   technology they choose--

01:45:39   like, say, in the distance future,

01:45:41   like the high-bandwidth venture, HBM4 or whatever,

01:45:44   making some future thing--

01:45:45   that itself could incorporate some error-correcting thing.

01:45:48   And if so, Apple will use it in the appropriate context.

01:45:51   But I don't think Apple is going to go out of its way

01:45:53   to do something entirely exotic and different

01:45:58   if there isn't already an industry standard RAM technology

01:46:01   that offers error correcting stuff for the Mac Pro.

01:46:06   - John Sulick writes, "For several years,

01:46:07   "I've used both PC and Mac platforms.

01:46:10   "One of the questions I've always wondered

01:46:11   "is about cleaning software.

01:46:13   "In the world of PCs, you often find yourself

01:46:15   "needing to have something that will go through

01:46:17   "and remove various applications

01:46:18   "and file system cruft periodically.

01:46:20   "I was just about to buy some software

01:46:21   "for my new M1 Mac to handle this very thing,

01:46:23   "and I thought I would ask the experts.

01:46:24   "You probably know what to look for and remove manually,

01:46:27   But for those of us who are not as familiar

01:46:29   in the world of the Mac,

01:46:30   are these types of programs snake oil

01:46:32   or would they be worthwhile?

01:46:33   I can only speak for myself

01:46:35   and I have run things like this in the past.

01:46:37   It's been so long I don't even remember what I ran

01:46:40   and this is not something that I personally worry about

01:46:42   but I have a feeling one or both of you guys

01:46:44   will have some thoughts.

01:46:46   - I mean this is the kind of thing that you have

01:46:47   to be careful about what you install

01:46:50   and what their claims are and what you can do yourself.

01:46:55   can do yourself. Things like uninstalling apps and cleaning out a bunch of files, that

01:47:02   actually is a problem on Mac OS. One of the great things about iOS is that when you delete

01:47:06   an app on iOS, with a couple of weird, odd exceptions that mostly clear after a reboot,

01:47:11   it's gone. When you delete an app on iOS, that's it. For some reason, Apple has never

01:47:18   brought that experience to Mac OS. You can delete the app on Mac OS, but that doesn't

01:47:23   mean that it's gone.

01:47:25   It just means that the executable, the binary is gone,

01:47:28   but it could have left a whole bunch of crap

01:47:30   all over your library or whatever,

01:47:32   and that could be there forever, basically.

01:47:36   That being said, having a bunch of crap in your library

01:47:38   doesn't seem to really be a problem,

01:47:40   with the exception of disk space that it takes up.

01:47:42   But it doesn't slow your computer down

01:47:45   in a meaningful way to have a bunch of crap there.

01:47:47   But there are apps that will offer various tidiness

01:47:52   or cleaning type verbiage to describe,

01:47:55   like deleting files that you probably don't need anymore,

01:47:57   possibly from apps that are installed anymore or whatever.

01:48:00   That's a perfectly fine thing.

01:48:01   Just if you are going to go down that route,

01:48:04   make sure that you trust the developer

01:48:06   because you have to give them full disk access

01:48:08   to be able to do this and you're having them

01:48:11   like go find stuff to delete off your computer.

01:48:15   So this is not something to be taken lightly

01:48:18   and most people find that kind of trade off

01:48:21   not to be worth it.

01:48:22   that if you're gonna, if you wanna go delete stuff

01:48:25   out of your library folder or try to delete old cruft,

01:48:29   you can generally just do that yourself

01:48:31   if you are at all technically inclined.

01:48:33   You can find the handful of places in the file system

01:48:35   that these files tend to be,

01:48:37   and you can delete them yourself, and it's usually fine.

01:48:40   So these apps, they do provide a service

01:48:44   that is a real useful utility,

01:48:47   but it comes with significant risks,

01:48:50   and there is a lot of snake oil.

01:48:52   in that business where certain less scrupulous versions

01:48:56   of these apps, I mean some of them are just malware,

01:48:58   some of them will make claims that are technically unsound

01:49:03   or will try to always be running so that way

01:49:08   they can monitor everything and that has some

01:49:10   security implications and again, technical scariness.

01:49:14   So it is a category where it is useful to have apps

01:49:19   in this category for certain people but I think

01:49:21   It's probably not most people.

01:49:23   - This is one of those questions we get every few years

01:49:25   and I intentionally put in the program every few years.

01:49:28   Sorry if you're hearing the same question addressed again,

01:49:30   but I think it's important because,

01:49:32   especially people who are new to the Mac,

01:49:34   they get a Mac and they're like,

01:49:35   what things do I need for this?

01:49:36   And you will see heavily advertised things that like,

01:49:40   you need this to help maintain your Mac, right?

01:49:42   That it's just, you know,

01:49:43   like the same way you have to get an oil change in your car,

01:49:45   you need an app like this.

01:49:46   And so people don't even ask whether they need it.

01:49:48   What they ask is,

01:49:49   which one of these things should I get?

01:49:51   The other category is virus programs,

01:49:52   so we're not talking about that right now.

01:49:54   Which one of these Mac cleaning programs should I get?

01:49:57   'Cause it seems obvious that I need a Mac cleaning program.

01:50:00   And the basic answer is, what I always say is,

01:50:03   you don't need a Mac cleaning program.

01:50:05   Mac OS is not designed to need a Mac cleaning program.

01:50:08   If you literally never use any kind of Mac cleaning program,

01:50:11   you use your Mac, you'll be fine, right?

01:50:14   Anything that you could, the bad that could happen,

01:50:18   and you know that a Mac cleaning program could save you from,

01:50:21   it can't actually save you.

01:50:23   Like that type of badness of something getting wedged

01:50:25   in there and running weirdly or spinning out of control,

01:50:29   that can happen whether or not you run a cleaning program.

01:50:31   Now the cleaning programs, they're like, okay, well,

01:50:34   I don't like say, like Marco said,

01:50:35   I can just go delete stuff,

01:50:36   but I don't trust myself to do that.

01:50:37   I think that's a good instinct.

01:50:38   If you don't know what you're, should be deleting,

01:50:41   don't just go and look and say,

01:50:42   I don't think I need this and delete it.

01:50:44   Cause you will screw things up, right?

01:50:46   especially if you give yourself a bit of information

01:50:48   to delete stuff, right?

01:50:50   But by the same token, using one of these cleaning apps

01:50:53   does actually require some knowledge of what's what, right?

01:50:58   Because you can mess yourself up

01:50:59   with one of these cleaning apps,

01:51:00   not through any faults of the app,

01:51:01   but they very often offer features

01:51:03   that let you do things that you probably don't wanna do,

01:51:06   like nuking your launch services database.

01:51:08   There are situations where you might wanna do that,

01:51:10   and having a trusted third-party app do it for you is good,

01:51:12   but you don't wanna do that routinely.

01:51:14   It's going to mess things up,

01:51:15   'cause now it's gotta re-index all of your apps

01:51:17   and do a bunch of stuff,

01:51:18   that's gonna make your computer slower for no reason.

01:51:20   And it's another opportunity for things to get screwed up.

01:51:22   If your Launch Services database was fine,

01:51:24   you didn't need to mess up.

01:51:25   And if you don't know what the Launch Services database is,

01:51:27   don't buy an app that lets you nuke

01:51:29   your Launch Services database and then click the button

01:51:30   'cause you think it's somehow making your Mac better

01:51:32   or like a cleanliness thing.

01:51:34   Mac OS is not designed to need any of these apps.

01:51:37   To the extent that it does, to Marco's point,

01:51:39   like oh, what if an app installs a bunch of cruft

01:51:41   and it's hanging around and it actually is harmful,

01:51:44   That is a problem for Apple to fix, not you.

01:51:46   In general, there's not much apps can do these days,

01:51:50   especially good modern apps, to sort of screw up

01:51:52   your Mac long term, other than taking up

01:51:54   a minuscule negligible amount of disk space,

01:51:56   but you really shouldn't worry about that these days.

01:51:59   And the other one is, and this is gonna get more technical,

01:52:01   you probably need to know, but like,

01:52:02   if launch services stuff is left in there,

01:52:05   that can have something that is actually running

01:52:09   or trying to run and generally sort of being

01:52:13   the background, annoying that you don't need anymore because you deleted the app, but the

01:52:17   launch services thing is still there.

01:52:19   Very often the launch services thing will be there and it will be trying to be run in

01:52:21   a binary that doesn't exist anymore because it was inside the app bundle.

01:52:25   Apple's modern practices on the Mac are moving very heavily towards the iOS model, where

01:52:30   everything is part of the app bundle, including all the extensions and everything.

01:52:34   Rather than being in your library folder, they will actually be in the app bundle, so

01:52:37   when you throw out the app, it actually throws out all the extensions with it, like Finder

01:52:40   extensions or whatever.

01:52:42   But because the Mac is an older platform, that's not true of all Mac apps.

01:52:45   So it is still possible for Mac apps to spray files all over your disk.

01:52:49   Which is why, by the way, one of the sort of instincts that you can lean on even as

01:52:53   a new Mac user is, if I installed the app by dragging an icon into the application folder,

01:52:59   I can be fairly confident, if it didn't prompt me for some future install process, that dragging

01:53:04   the app out of the application folder into the trash got rid of anything that I really

01:53:08   need to care about.

01:53:09   Yes, you'll still have preferences and other stuff or whatever.

01:53:11   But if on the other hand you used an installer or a .pkg thing to install the app, that may

01:53:16   have sprayed files all over your disk.

01:53:18   You don't actually know where it's putting things.

01:53:19   You can find out if you're technically savvy.

01:53:20   You can use an app like Pacifist to look at what the .pkg is doing and you can look at

01:53:25   what an installer is doing by running FSU's.

01:53:28   There's all sorts of techie things you can do.

01:53:30   But FSU's, I guess all of them.

01:53:35   Like, if you, you know, modern well-behaved Mac apps

01:53:40   will not even leave any cruft around

01:53:44   that you need to care about.

01:53:46   And in general, macOS does not require you

01:53:49   to have any of these kinds of applications.

01:53:51   So I would say my default is,

01:53:52   you don't need one of these, don't try to buy one.

01:53:54   If you find yourself in a weird situation

01:53:56   and it seems like, oh, I have a problem

01:53:58   and I see lots of people suggesting

01:54:00   one of these apps might be the solution,

01:54:02   again, be careful.

01:54:03   But if you have people that you trust,

01:54:05   At that point, maybe considering finding one of the reputable ones of these applications,

01:54:10   someone you trust tells you this one is reputable.

01:54:12   I know this thing is asking, "Do you have a reputable one?"

01:54:14   I honestly don't because I don't use these type of applications.

01:54:16   But they're out there.

01:54:17   There are reputable ones.

01:54:18   But only at that point where you are troubleshooting an existing problem and troubleshooting that

01:54:23   has led you through a series of things that you trust to potentially look at one of these

01:54:27   apps, only then look at it.

01:54:29   But you do not need one of these as a routine part of owning a Mac.

01:54:33   Let it go.

01:54:35   [ Laughs ]

01:54:37   -A. Bill DeMose writes,

01:54:39   "I'm going to build a back-end application

01:54:41   that does a lot of server-side crawling

01:54:43   and has a handful of questions.

01:54:45   To what degree does your choice of programming language

01:54:47   impact server costs?

01:54:48   Would a statically typed compiled language

01:54:50   with a robust concurrency model, like Golang,

01:54:53   be more efficient at crawling RSS speeds

01:54:55   than, say, PHP and significantly reduce server costs?

01:54:58   If the language choice does matter,

01:55:00   what about Swift and Go?

01:55:02   "Language benchmarks say that Go is faster in many respects,

01:55:05   "and Golang has a better concurrency model than Swift.

01:55:09   "I'm comfortable with Swift,

01:55:10   "but I've never written a line of Golang code in my life.

01:55:12   "And finally, would the savings and server costs

01:55:14   "be worth learning a new language?"

01:55:16   I think, Marco, you're probably most appropriate

01:55:18   to answer this question,

01:55:21   partially because I don't want to hear John go on

01:55:22   and on about Perl for an hour.

01:55:24   So tell me, what do you think, Marco?

01:55:27   - In my experience, I mean,

01:55:29   this is very application dependent.

01:55:31   So massive disclaimer here, it depends on what you're doing.

01:55:34   Now, I happen to have a lot of experience

01:55:36   with this particular thing of crawling a bunch of server--

01:55:39   of RSS feeds, basically.

01:55:40   That I do.

01:55:42   Overcast crawls probably hundreds of feeds per second.

01:55:48   So this is off the top of my head,

01:55:49   but it's probably in that ballpark.

01:55:52   And so this is an area that I do.

01:55:54   The crawlers themselves are written in Go.

01:55:58   And the role here, to be clear, the Go

01:56:01   is not parsing any of the RSS or figuring out

01:56:04   what to do with the contents of the feeds.

01:56:06   All it's doing is fetching the feeds on a regular interval,

01:56:10   determining whether they have changed since the last time

01:56:13   they've been processed.

01:56:14   And if they have changed, stuff them into a queue

01:56:17   to be processed by PHP so that I wouldn't

01:56:19   have to deal with Go for all the string handling

01:56:21   code of doing all that.

01:56:23   Because I had already written it in PHP.

01:56:25   And then there's a whole bunch of PHP queue consumers

01:56:28   that run on various application servers that deal with that.

01:56:31   Now, as for a cost breakdown,

01:56:34   the Go servers that are crawling all the feeds,

01:56:39   that costs me in the order of a few hundred dollars a month

01:56:42   on our frequent sponsor Linode.

01:56:44   I have six crawlers that I pay, I think, 60 a month each,

01:56:49   so they're like 360 total.

01:56:51   Now, for my databases, I pay like $3,000 a month.

01:56:57   So we're talking like 10 times as much cost for databases

01:57:01   as for that.

01:57:03   And there are a few other servers that help out,

01:57:06   like the actual web/application servers that

01:57:08   are running all the PHP.

01:57:10   That's an untrivial cost there, but databases

01:57:13   are the big part of it, because databases

01:57:15   need lots of everything.

01:57:17   They need lots of CPU power, lots of RAM,

01:57:20   and when you're crawling this many feeds,

01:57:22   lots of storage space.

01:57:24   So it depends, again, depends on what you're going

01:57:28   to be doing with your app.

01:57:30   But in general, in my experience so far,

01:57:32   every single web thing I've worked on so far

01:57:35   that has had multiple servers and therefore significant costs,

01:57:40   databases are always the biggest cost.

01:57:43   Because when you're doing web servers/app servers,

01:57:48   you can usually do the shared CPU instances at your host,

01:57:53   which are usually cheaper.

01:57:54   You can usually do almost no disk space,

01:57:57   just enough to hold the app and whatever temp stuff

01:58:00   you might need, but for the most part you have no disk space

01:58:02   so that saves on the massive SSD cost there.

01:58:05   And you're mainly dealing with like CPU and some RAM.

01:58:09   You don't even need a lot of RAM usually

01:58:10   on most application servers.

01:58:12   And CPU, especially the shared CPU plans,

01:58:15   that's usually the cheapest resource to get

01:58:17   at most modern hosts compared to the other ones.

01:58:19   So you do save in the CPU time

01:58:24   by using a very efficient language like Go,

01:58:27   but you're saving the cheapest, most available,

01:58:31   and most easily scaled resource.

01:58:33   Whereas databases are expensive and hard to scale,

01:58:38   and usually the bottleneck of pretty much everything

01:58:41   you're gonna be doing.

01:58:42   So yes, the language choice does matter,

01:58:46   but not as much as you think for most applications.

01:58:50   - The only thing I'll add is that,

01:58:53   obviously, depending on your application,

01:58:55   like, you may not, like, it may be premature

01:58:57   to worry about this, 'cause try getting some customers first

01:59:00   where you actually have to worry about scale.

01:59:02   But it is worth thinking about upfront,

01:59:04   because if you think there's a reasonable chance

01:59:05   you are going to have scale,

01:59:06   the next thing you need to ask is,

01:59:08   yeah, but is this, like, am I going to be limited,

01:59:12   is the language going to be limiting me in some way, right?

01:59:14   So one way it could limit you is cost.

01:59:15   like, oh, it turns out that if we scale up

01:59:17   to 100 million users, this will cost me so much money.

01:59:20   So it is limiting me because it costs a lot of money.

01:59:21   I've got to rewrite it in a cheaper language.

01:59:23   But the other way it can limit you

01:59:25   is in terms of total performance throughput, right?

01:59:28   That you just can't get the performance you want.

01:59:30   You can't scale this thing up without doing

01:59:32   something ridiculous.

01:59:33   Say you write this application and it becomes gargantuan

01:59:35   and it's written in PHP or Python or something that

01:59:39   is not particularly stingy with memory,

01:59:43   and you just made this monster.

01:59:45   and now you need to run on something

01:59:47   with like huge amounts of RAM

01:59:49   just to run one instance of your thing.

01:59:51   Oh, and by the way,

01:59:52   now you need thousands of those instances

01:59:54   just to get the performance you want.

01:59:55   Like on an average day of like,

01:59:57   I just can't handle the peak load at noon

01:59:59   when most people are using my very popular application.

02:00:02   To do that, like I have to, you know,

02:00:03   I have to basically scale vertically

02:00:05   because it's easy to scale out horizontally,

02:00:07   but if it turns out that just to sort of run one instance

02:00:09   of your thing on one server,

02:00:11   you need like a monster instance

02:00:13   that with a huge amount of RAM

02:00:14   a huge amount of CPU because of your language choice, that's not a good place to find yourself.

02:00:18   You've accidentally written a monolith in an inefficient language and you need huge

02:00:24   amounts of them and it becomes sort of untenable that maybe you can't even get that many or

02:00:30   you start getting beat up on the overhead of just having these things, any sort of side-band

02:00:34   communication with each other.

02:00:36   So an early choice up front to know is this the part of the thing that is going to be

02:00:40   a performance bottleneck or is that it's going to like scale up like how much RAM is this

02:00:44   going to use if we get a you know a million times more customers how much CPUs is going

02:00:48   to be used if we get a million times more customers that you can do that back in the

02:00:50   envelope math to make some choices early on.

02:00:54   But very often like in the case of Marcos thing, you're not it's not like a real time

02:00:58   interactive application.

02:01:00   And so in that case, as long as you can get the crawling done, for example, like you can

02:01:04   get 24 hours with a crawling done in 24 hours.

02:01:08   You can just use wimpier, slower, smaller instances and just take the full 24 hours.

02:01:12   Yes, if you wrote it in Go, you'd use half the instances for half the time, but the bottom

02:01:16   line is like painting the Golden Gate Bridge.

02:01:18   You're just going to start over the other end when you're done anyway.

02:01:20   As long as the throughput is sufficient for you to do whatever batch job you're doing,

02:01:25   as long as you can get the job done in your time window, the inefficiency of using a 10

02:01:31   times slower language doesn't really matter.

02:01:34   Because to Marco's point, that's not your big expense anyway.

02:01:38   And if it was fast for you to write and it's the language you're familiar with, even if

02:01:43   it's ten times less efficient, as long as it gets the job done, and as long as you don't

02:01:47   think like, "Are there going to be a trillion podcasts in ten years?"

02:01:54   Probably not.

02:01:55   The number of podcasts is somewhat bounded, right?

02:01:58   You can kind of do the back envelope of math and say, "The job of crawling podcasts, how

02:02:02   How often do I think they should be crawled

02:02:04   for a good experience, and how many podcasts

02:02:06   are there going to be essentially ever,

02:02:08   like bounded, order of magnitude?

02:02:10   You can say, all right, yeah, if I wrote it in Go,

02:02:13   I would save a little bit of money each month,

02:02:16   but if I write it in PHP, it's not the end of the world,

02:02:20   it will get the job done.

02:02:21   So it's very difficult to give blanket advice,

02:02:24   'cause we don't know what you're doing.

02:02:25   Are you doing a podcast crawl that needs to crawl feeds

02:02:27   once every 24 hours, once every hour?

02:02:29   Or are you writing something that needs to be up to date

02:02:30   from the moment are you writing an interactive application

02:02:32   that users are gonna be using,

02:02:34   and at peak times there's gonna be, you know,

02:02:36   one million per second or something.

02:02:38   Very different choices based on those things.

02:02:40   So unfortunately for servers I thought

02:02:42   there's no one answer other than saying

02:02:44   you could probably find a way to do it with AWS.

02:02:47   - I would like to add one quick thing in that,

02:02:50   in my experience, learning another language,

02:02:53   even if you don't really do much with it,

02:02:55   is almost always a worthwhile expenditure of time.

02:02:58   And when I first dabbled with Python 10, 15 years ago,

02:03:03   I didn't think in a million years I'd be writing code

02:03:05   to figure out if my garage door was open or not.

02:03:08   And yes, that wasn't particularly important,

02:03:10   but it was still nice to have a little exposure to Python

02:03:12   years and years and years and years and years in the past

02:03:14   to get me ahead on that.

02:03:15   So I don't think it's necessarily bad

02:03:18   to explore another language

02:03:19   or even learn to some degree another language.

02:03:21   And Marco, I don't see you writing a lot of Go

02:03:24   willingly these days, but nevertheless,

02:03:26   I still think it, I think it was a worthwhile expenditure

02:03:30   of your time, and I would guess that you do too.

02:03:33   - Oh, it was 100% worth it, because my PHP-based crawlers

02:03:37   before this were not nearly as good

02:03:39   for this particular task.

02:03:41   Because, like, I use Go's whole channel system,

02:03:44   their whole concurrency model,

02:03:46   for managing this whole thing, and it's great.

02:03:47   And you're right, I don't write a lot of it,

02:03:50   because I wrote this years ago,

02:03:53   and then basically haven't really touched it much

02:03:56   since then, and I have since mostly forgotten the language.

02:03:59   And whenever I do have to go in there

02:04:01   and change one little thing,

02:04:03   I have to basically relearn the language again

02:04:05   just to be able to make a two line change

02:04:07   or something like that.

02:04:08   It's kind of funny and a little bit scary.

02:04:10   If I ever have to do a bigger change,

02:04:12   I'm gonna have to take a weekend

02:04:14   and really relearn the entire thing again.

02:04:17   - You guys rewrite it in Rust then,

02:04:18   because that's the good thing of you pick the part of it

02:04:21   that actually is performance sensitive,

02:04:23   that concurrency matters.

02:04:24   But like you said, you didn't rewrite the whole parsing

02:04:27   feeds or whatever, because you already had that code,

02:04:28   and that's not the code.

02:04:30   You can just queue that out and parallelize it.

02:04:32   It's the crawler itself, the little core of the crawler.

02:04:35   And so if you needed to write that again,

02:04:37   you know the job that it needs to do.

02:04:38   And you could say, OK, well, now it's time to learn Rust.

02:04:40   And you could write it in Rust.

02:04:42   And then you don't have to relearn Go.

02:04:43   And as long as it is comparable in performance

02:04:46   and comparable mechanisms for concurrency,

02:04:48   you could just write it in whatever

02:04:49   the language of the day that is the most go-like, right?

02:04:52   - Yeah, I mean, and frankly, you know,

02:04:54   if I was writing something from scratch today,

02:04:58   I think I would consider a radically different architecture

02:05:01   than what I did here.

02:05:02   Like, I've been brainstorming for a while,

02:05:05   like, can I really, can I maybe reduce the amount

02:05:08   of like, database use that I have here, because--

02:05:11   - Put stuff on people's devices.

02:05:13   - Yeah, and, or, you know, use things like S3

02:05:16   as the storage, you know.

02:05:17   There are things I can do that I've been brainstorming

02:05:20   of like, I think I might wanna go in someone

02:05:21   in this direction because it, running all this,

02:05:24   like I had to deal with some database stuff this week

02:05:26   and it was stupid and it was easy,

02:05:29   but I still hate dealing with it on so many levels

02:05:31   and it's extremely expensive and so I was thinking like,

02:05:36   maybe I should start, you know, changing things,

02:05:38   but there's never a good time to do that, so, I don't know.

02:05:41   Anyway, thank you so much everybody for listening.

02:05:43   Thank you to our sponsors this week,

02:05:45   Hover, Mack Weldon and Collide.

02:05:48   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

02:05:49   You can join akeeps.fm/join

02:05:52   and we will talk to you next week.

02:05:55   (upbeat music)

02:05:58   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

02:06:00   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

02:06:03   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:06:05   ♪ Oh it was accidental ♪

02:06:08   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

02:06:10   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

02:06:13   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

02:06:16   It was accidental (it was accidental)

02:06:19   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:06:24   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

02:06:29   @caseyliss

02:06:33   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:06:37   ♪ Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

02:06:42   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

02:06:46   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:06:48   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

02:06:50   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:06:51   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:06:53   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

02:06:55   ♪ So long ♪

02:06:58   Tell you what, I got my new capture setup going

02:07:01   with the PCIe enclosure.

02:07:02   Finally got it working now with the Magewell card.

02:07:05   I returned the Blackmagic DeckLink card.

02:07:08   The Magewell Pro Capture HDMI thing is working great.

02:07:11   I have four capture streams.

02:07:13   It is a dream to use because not only is this much smaller

02:07:18   and simpler than my previous setup of having like four

02:07:20   or three different little HDMI capture USB thingies,

02:07:24   like it's so much simpler.

02:07:27   The enclosure has been great.

02:07:29   I have everything running off of one cable correctly now.

02:07:32   Like, you know, before I was describing

02:07:35   when I was trying to plug every single thing

02:07:37   into the CalDigit TS3 Plus,

02:07:40   that some of the capture things would only work

02:07:43   if I plugged them in directly to the computer,

02:07:45   and so I ended up using all three

02:07:48   of my computer's ports anyway.

02:07:51   Now I can literally just use one.

02:07:53   The only downside is that the enclosure

02:07:55   only provides 15 watts of power to the computer.

02:07:58   So that's not great as the only power source.

02:08:01   So I'm using a second USB-C port purely for power.

02:08:04   I could also use MagSafe for that, it would be fine.

02:08:07   So anyway, that's the only real downside.

02:08:09   Otherwise, it's fantastic.

02:08:11   It has so far been very reliable, the quality is great,

02:08:16   and I'm very happy with it.

02:08:17   So I should have done this earlier, honestly.

02:08:20   I should have gone straight to the solution.

02:08:23   'Cause it's a decent amount of money,

02:08:25   but so was the previous setup where I had three different

02:08:30   Elgato Capture thingies, plus the TS3 plus,

02:08:32   that's not cheap either.

02:08:34   And so having this PCI Express enclosure

02:08:37   with this dedicated card in it and these USB cards

02:08:40   is a dream, so I'm very happy with it.

02:08:43   - So tell me again, it's a generic PCI Express enclosure

02:08:47   that lets you basically put what I would consider

02:08:49   to be a desktop card in a box

02:08:51   and then connect it to your laptop,

02:08:53   and then remind me what the card is?

02:08:55   - So the enclosure is, it's Sonnet,

02:08:58   almost everything is Sonnet, you know, Sonnet Tech.

02:09:00   So it's a Sonnet enclosure with three PCIe slots in it.

02:09:04   Two of the slots I've put Sonnet USB cards in

02:09:06   that have four ports each, one A, one C,

02:09:09   like one bank of A's, one bank of C's

02:09:11   'cause I have both devices.

02:09:12   And then the third slot has a Magewell Pro

02:09:17   HDMI Quad capture card, so it captures four HDMI ports.

02:09:20   And the Magewell was the only thing that required drivers.

02:09:25   I wish there was some kind of HDMI capture

02:09:27   that didn't require drivers on Mac OS.

02:09:29   I don't know if that exists,

02:09:31   but as far as I can tell, they all require drivers.

02:09:34   So this required them, so that's one thing

02:09:36   that could break in the future is like,

02:09:38   if some future version of Mac OS comes out

02:09:40   and then Magewell does not update their drivers,

02:09:43   that could mess me up a little bit

02:09:44   and I'll cross that bridge if it comes.

02:09:47   But otherwise, yeah, it's been great.

02:09:49   [beeping]

02:09:51   [