479: Never Mind, I'm Out


00:00:00   How much do I have to derail this show so we don't get to talking about Elon Musk a lot challenge accepted

00:00:07   You could probably do it by yourself you and me together our powers combined could absolutely do it

00:00:14   We're gonna say really mean things about him probably. Oh, that's the last thing I want to do though

00:00:20   Because then everyone gets angry at us. I'd rather just say nothing about him. I just I just don't like him so much

00:00:25   Here we go. Let's let's do it. We're talking about let's the derail immediately

00:00:28   (electronic beeping)

00:00:30   I had to restore both of my home pods today.

00:00:33   (laughing)

00:00:34   - Oh gosh, how does that even happen?

00:00:36   - So remember how I said a few weeks ago,

00:00:39   you know, they've been working really well,

00:00:40   they seem to have stopped breaking,

00:00:41   and they've been working really well.

00:00:43   Well that came to a screeching halt

00:00:45   over the last week or so,

00:00:46   where they've been working very poorly.

00:00:49   You know, it's a stereo pair,

00:00:50   and sometimes one would just drop out

00:00:53   until I would unplug it and plug it back in.

00:00:55   Which one it was would change over time.

00:00:58   Sometimes it was doing that thing where it was crashing

00:01:01   in the middle of a response and restarting itself.

00:01:03   Like it would say part of the response

00:01:04   and then it would say, "Let me try that again."

00:01:06   And then like say the same thing.

00:01:07   - What? - Yes.

00:01:08   - That's a thing? - Yes it is.

00:01:10   And it's doing it more and more.

00:01:12   - It sounds like Apple made their own

00:01:13   automatic kicking machine.

00:01:14   - They did. - Right?

00:01:15   - They totally did. - Wow, that's a throwback.

00:01:17   That's a throwback. - That's a thing.

00:01:18   And then eventually, and of course, you know,

00:01:20   and so we actually, so first of all,

00:01:23   for the music project, thank God we hit the end.

00:01:28   So there's a clear, so remember, I was saying how

00:01:31   2000 to 2006 was a pretty rough time.

00:01:35   Like the music got much angrier and dirtier

00:01:37   and much more explicit and it was pretty rough.

00:01:41   Well then it seemed to get better from about 2007 or so,

00:01:45   2008 maybe.

00:01:46   Now I don't know if you recall maybe,

00:01:49   who was president between 2000 and 2008?

00:01:52   And then, so that was a really angry period.

00:01:55   And then we had a change and from 2008 until about 2016,

00:02:00   it was much happier and much, much less angry and explicit.

00:02:08   And then I swear 2017 to 2020 took another massive dark turn.

00:02:13   Like I swear, listen to, go to Apple Music and say,

00:02:20   pop hits X for whatever year you want.

00:02:23   It's clear as day, it's a very clear difference.

00:02:27   You can tell, what was the culture feeling?

00:02:29   Was the culture angry?

00:02:30   Was the culture frustrated?

00:02:32   Was the culture partying?

00:02:34   You can feel all those things in the music.

00:02:36   Trust me, it's worth seeing.

00:02:39   But anyway, so we've gone back now,

00:02:42   and we decided to go back and do the rock chart

00:02:46   instead of the pop chart.

00:02:48   The rock chart didn't actually exist until,

00:02:50   at least in Apple Music, until 1956, or 1965, rather.

00:02:55   But they have pop charts going back to 1955.

00:02:59   So we actually started 1955 pop,

00:03:01   and we're gonna do that until we get to '65,

00:03:02   then we're gonna switch over to rock.

00:03:04   And we're hearing so much stuff,

00:03:05   so many songs that I'm like, oh my god,

00:03:08   the version of this that I knew

00:03:09   was actually a cover of this?

00:03:11   - Oh, what was the Spin Doctors,

00:03:13   no, was it not Spin Doctors?

00:03:15   It was some song that, oh, now I'm gonna have to look it up.

00:03:18   There was some song that I had no idea was a cover

00:03:21   and I just recently discovered this

00:03:23   and it blew my freaking mind.

00:03:25   And the funniest part is the original was also incredible.

00:03:30   Crud, what was that?

00:03:32   All right, I'm gonna just interrupt you in a second

00:03:33   when I figure it out, but I have it on a playlist,

00:03:36   the original and it's off to find in a second.

00:03:38   - And there were so many songs too where like,

00:03:40   they're not officially credited, I think, as covers,

00:03:43   but they clearly like drew,

00:03:45   like they clearly like just lifted the whole melody

00:03:47   of a certain song.

00:03:48   Usually it was like a jazz artist in the 50s who them like some you know

00:03:52   White guy in the 60s lifted it and or in the 80s or in the 90s

00:03:56   Like I heard we heard this one song yesterday

00:03:58   And I'm like this is just I want candy like I want candy just completely ripped off

00:04:03   But it was and it was some jazz song. I never heard of like this is it was so incredibly similar today

00:04:08   I heard a song that I'm pretty sure surfing USA ripped off

00:04:10   Yeah, I think Margot you need to spend some time on YouTube

00:04:13   But there's a whole sub-genre on YouTube of is song X a ripoff of song Y, Y or Y not. Oh, yeah, you'll find that highly

00:04:20   educational. Follow-up, real-time follow-up. It is hard to handle by Otis Redding as covered not by the spin doctors

00:04:26   But instead by the Black Crows, my mistake. Okay, that's a pretty different band, but okay.

00:04:32   It is and you will absolutely recognize at least the Black Crows version

00:04:36   When you hear that and then if you were to hear the Otis Redding version

00:04:39   It is not that particularly different,

00:04:41   but it is also stunningly great.

00:04:44   I will say, I have possibly the best playlist

00:04:48   in all of music history, which is all funk and soul music,

00:04:51   from about the '60s, and it is something like 50 or 60 songs

00:04:56   that are just perfection from top to bottom.

00:04:58   So I just wanted to share that with everyone.

00:05:00   And this is on it, that's how I could find it so quickly.

00:05:02   - And there's a lot of, last time we did this,

00:05:05   we started in 1960, and we were at first,

00:05:08   until all the ATP listeners wrote in to say pop hits X.

00:05:11   And when I was just doing play the top songs from year X

00:05:13   and it would play at the top,

00:05:14   it would say play the top 25

00:05:15   and then it would play the top seven and then wander off.

00:05:19   So we're hearing a lot more now than we did before.

00:05:21   And there are so many good songs in the,

00:05:24   I mean, you know, it still sounds like the 50s,

00:05:26   but there's a lot of good music from back then.

00:05:28   Like we just hit Tequila, the song from Pee Wee's Big Adventure

00:05:30   like I didn't realize that was from the 50s.

00:05:32   I would have guessed, you know, 60s,

00:05:34   but like, oh man, there's so much like good stuff in here

00:05:36   and it's so refreshing to be able to just hit play

00:05:39   and not have to worry like every song transition,

00:05:42   wait, do we have to skip this 'cause Adam's here

00:05:43   or because we don't wanna hear all this dirtyness?

00:05:45   - Didn't you, like everyone gave you the solution to that.

00:05:48   It was like the turn off explicit content on the HomePod,

00:05:50   did you just never hit that switch?

00:05:51   - Yeah, I didn't, I forgot about that.

00:05:54   I was too busy trying to get the HomePods to work.

00:05:55   - You should just do it.

00:05:56   It'll save you, it'll save you some trouble later

00:05:59   'cause I'm pretty sure the Rock hits

00:06:00   are gonna have some words in there too.

00:06:02   - Yeah, but not for a while.

00:06:03   Like, you know, we have a few decades to go before

00:06:06   Those are really in there, at least in any significant quantity.

00:06:10   There's certainly innuendo, but I mean, heck, there's innuendo in the 50s songs.

00:06:13   It's just different innuendo.

00:06:14   You're gonna get the radio edit of "Creep," which I think is better than the one with

00:06:19   Carzing.

00:06:20   I agree, actually.

00:06:21   When I first heard the version of "Creep" that had the F-word in it, I was like, "Oh,

00:06:23   that's actually less of a good song."

00:06:26   It didn't fit, you know?

00:06:27   I freaking love radio edit, and "Creep" has never done much for me, which probably

00:06:31   makes me completely without taste.

00:06:33   But hi, welcome to the last eight years.

00:06:35   - No comment.

00:06:36   - So anyway, so my home pods were like exploding

00:06:38   and I was trying to figure out,

00:06:40   all right, what do I do here?

00:06:41   A few people had commented over the times

00:06:44   that I was complaining about this

00:06:45   that doing a full restore fixed them for a while.

00:06:49   - Why don't you just restore your home pods?

00:06:51   - I know, right?

00:06:51   Well, I mean, look, it works for the Apple Watch.

00:06:54   I'm like, all right, so let me give this a shot.

00:06:56   So I did the full restore of both.

00:06:58   You plug it in while holding it down,

00:06:59   it spins red and then it tells you it's gonna reset.

00:07:02   It's a pretty easy process.

00:07:04   I actually got them both done and repaired

00:07:06   in a matter of maybe 20 minutes or less even.

00:07:09   It was quick.

00:07:10   It's been working better.

00:07:12   But I did.

00:07:13   I started looking.

00:07:14   I'm like, what if these do die?

00:07:16   And if it seems like it's both a physical flaw that all home

00:07:21   pods have, the whole thing about slowly frying

00:07:23   one of their components with some weird power.

00:07:25   So there's a physical flaw they seem to all have over time.

00:07:28   And the big home pod actually runs different software

00:07:33   than the HomePod Mini.

00:07:34   So my theory is, well, they're probably gonna

00:07:37   slowly let more and more bugs creep into the big one

00:07:39   that just kinda never get fixed,

00:07:41   whereas the little one seems to work better.

00:07:43   We have both in the house.

00:07:44   We have little ones in little rooms,

00:07:46   and they work much better, much more reliably and faster.

00:07:49   So if my HomePods die, I might be able to briefly

00:07:53   get along with finding new ones on eBay,

00:07:55   but eventually I'm not gonna be able to do that anymore.

00:07:57   And so let me take a look at what other

00:08:00   AirPlay 2 compatible speakers exist.

00:08:03   Now helpfully, Apple maintains such a list on their website.

00:08:07   So I went through and opened up every single page

00:08:10   on that list.

00:08:12   This was disheartening.

00:08:14   I would say at least half, maybe even 2/3 of them,

00:08:17   were 404s.

00:08:18   - Cool.

00:08:19   - Just all these old products that were,

00:08:22   or they were valid page responses,

00:08:24   but it was for discontinued products.

00:08:26   Many others were like soundbars,

00:08:29   which I'm not looking for.

00:08:31   'cause this isn't going under a TV,

00:08:33   this is trying to be a speaker on my kitchen counter.

00:08:36   And many others were possibly useful for that purpose,

00:08:42   but ugly or very limited,

00:08:46   or they had a single two-inch driver in them.

00:08:49   And it's like, well, that's gonna sound like crap.

00:08:51   I could just have the HomePod Mini

00:08:53   if I want that kind of sound profile.

00:08:55   If I want a single, small driver doing all the work,

00:08:58   then I'll just get a HomePod Mini and put it up there.

00:09:01   But looking through this list, I was trying to figure out

00:09:03   is there anything that could directly replace them?

00:09:05   And the answer is pretty much no.

00:09:08   The biggest hurdles I've found are,

00:09:10   first of all, just the speaker configuration.

00:09:12   Most of them have, as I said,

00:09:14   maybe one small driver somewhere in there.

00:09:16   At best, maybe a passive radiator as the woofer,

00:09:19   similar, again, to the HomePod Mini.

00:09:21   But these are multi-hundred dollar products.

00:09:24   Or they're these massive, really high-end things

00:09:28   that are really huge that would be ridiculous

00:09:30   to put on a kitchen counter or wouldn't fit at all

00:09:32   and are very expensive.

00:09:35   The other issue is the voice assistant situation.

00:09:38   We've had the Alexa products in our house before.

00:09:41   We know what we get with that.

00:09:42   A decent voice assistant that's fast and reliable

00:09:46   but that is just relentlessly trying to get us

00:09:49   to give it more to do.

00:09:51   Hey, did you know you could also ask me

00:09:53   to do all your shopping for you?

00:09:55   - Yeah, it never used to be like that but it's gotten bad.

00:09:58   - Did you know?

00:09:59   You can make voice calls, just give me access

00:10:02   to all of your information and contacts

00:10:04   and let me beep at you and blink my light at you

00:10:06   in different colors that you have to then learn

00:10:08   how to disable, it's getting really bad.

00:10:10   And so I don't really want the Amazon Assistant

00:10:13   in my house, if I can help it.

00:10:15   Also, I have had poor luck with things like Sonos products

00:10:20   that have the Amazon Assistant built in,

00:10:22   where products that have the Amazon Assistant built in

00:10:26   but are not Amazon products,

00:10:28   tend to have a lesser version of it.

00:10:31   They tend to be very limited or have weird little bugs

00:10:34   or shortcomings that Amazon's own first party products

00:10:37   don't have, but Amazon's first party products

00:10:39   sound like crap.

00:10:41   And I also had a lot of reliability issues

00:10:42   with my last set of echoes,

00:10:44   and so I don't really wanna go that route.

00:10:47   I've heard that Google has a good assistant.

00:10:49   I've heard that from John,

00:10:50   I've heard that from lots of other people,

00:10:51   and so I have thought maybe I should try a speaker

00:10:55   with the Google Assistant built in,

00:10:57   but I just kind of feel dirty about that.

00:10:59   I don't like Google.

00:11:01   They're a really creepy and morally bankrupt company.

00:11:04   I think they get away with a lot

00:11:06   simply because Facebook is worse.

00:11:08   But Google is certainly no shining star

00:11:11   of morality and trust.

00:11:14   And so that's an option,

00:11:17   but I don't love that option.

00:11:20   And then Siri, well, we know what Siri is.

00:11:23   Siri is a really well-meaning, privacy-conscious,

00:11:26   frequently failing and very frustrating assistant

00:11:29   that works about two thirds of the time and poorly at that.

00:11:32   And Siri is only available in HomePods.

00:11:35   There are no, as far as I know,

00:11:36   there's no other speakers on the market

00:11:38   that have Siri built in.

00:11:40   And so if I want AirPlay 2 and Siri,

00:11:44   HomePods or HomePod minis are my only options.

00:11:46   If I want AirPlay 2 and I'm willing

00:11:48   to take Google Assistant, I have a few more options.

00:11:51   - I think there's gotta be something with Siri

00:11:53   because my thermostat, I believe, is an AirPlay speaker

00:11:56   and has Siri built in.

00:11:58   - They, yeah, remember when they did that demo,

00:12:01   or the keynote where they had like the big virtual house

00:12:03   and they were like CGI, like flying through it,

00:12:05   they talked about how they were adding some kind of program

00:12:09   to put Siri into things like thermostats,

00:12:11   but I think it's only in thermostats.

00:12:12   I don't think it's gotten any further than that yet.

00:12:14   You know, Apple does a lot of these programs

00:12:16   where they'll announce some kind of hardware integration

00:12:19   partnership program, and then, you know,

00:12:21   there's only ever one thing for it,

00:12:23   or no things ever released for it.

00:12:25   So, I don't know, until something comes out,

00:12:28   I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

00:12:30   But anyway, so it really showed me,

00:12:33   like doing this exercise, like what I landed on was

00:12:36   things I would be most interested in trying

00:12:38   would be a couple of decent, you know,

00:12:41   multi-driver speakers that had AirPlay 2 support

00:12:44   and Google Assistant built in.

00:12:47   And there's only a pretty small handful of those

00:12:49   and they're really expensive, over $1,000 expensive.

00:12:53   It really showed me like, wow,

00:12:56   the HomePod was actually not that bad of a deal

00:12:59   for what it was.

00:13:01   Like if you try to find that kind of speaker arrangement

00:13:05   or that kind of speaker capability,

00:13:07   like multiple mid-range/tweeter drivers,

00:13:10   a big subwoofer that's big for its size,

00:13:14   some kind of DSP to adjust things,

00:13:15   that's actually pretty uncommon

00:13:19   And it's especially uncommon for under $500.

00:13:22   I appreciate the HomePod even more now

00:13:24   that I tried to shop for its replacement.

00:13:26   And I'm even more hoping that Apple

00:13:29   is the one to replace it sometime

00:13:30   in the not too distant future, because nothing else really

00:13:34   will replace it unless I'm willing to compromise heavily

00:13:38   on some other aspect.

00:13:39   Good luck.

00:13:40   Couldn't you just separate the voice assistant

00:13:42   from the speaker part?

00:13:43   Like, get some other small, tardy thing

00:13:45   to be the voice assistant, but have that little voice assistant

00:13:48   use the speakers that you buy as their sound output source?

00:13:51   - I can, and I thought about that.

00:13:54   Downtise of that would be like, on a kitchen counter,

00:13:57   I don't want a whole bunch of boxes and wires.

00:14:00   I want something that's integrated for there.

00:14:02   If I'm gonna make a whole separate system,

00:14:04   well then I'll make a real speaker system,

00:14:06   like over by the TV or in my office,

00:14:08   I have a pair of passive speakers driven by an amp.

00:14:11   That I'm fine with in that kind of context.

00:14:13   But on the kitchen counter, you want something integrated.

00:14:16   And again, even looking at the HomePod and what it offers,

00:14:19   other products that offer similar multi-speaker driver

00:14:22   arrangements are not only more expensive than the HomePod,

00:14:25   but much bigger than it.

00:14:27   Apple did a really good job designing this product

00:14:30   that nobody except me wanted, because they made it

00:14:32   too expensive for what the market wanted.

00:14:34   But they made a really nice high-end product.

00:14:36   And I really hope they do it again sometime,

00:14:39   because the HomePod Mini is great in my bathroom

00:14:43   and not many other places.

00:14:45   And so I really want, I want that big HomePod back.

00:14:49   So I'm just hoping mine last as long as they can,

00:14:52   then who knows what I'll do after that.

00:14:54   But the looking around at the options was not promising.

00:14:59   - So it's that time of year once again.

00:15:02   It is time for ATP merch.

00:15:05   We talked about it last week,

00:15:06   we're talking about it this week.

00:15:07   And I believe we have one more episode

00:15:09   where I will remind you, is that right, John?

00:15:10   One more episode. - Yep.

00:15:13   - Where you will get your reminder to pull the car over,

00:15:15   to step aside, to do what you need to do,

00:15:18   to remember that it is time to go to ATP.fm/store.

00:15:23   - Alexa, remind me in one hour, buy ATP merch.

00:15:28   - You're a mean, mean person.

00:15:29   - Okay, Google, remind me in one hour, buy ATP merch.

00:15:32   Hey, Siri, remind me in one hour, buy ATP merch.

00:15:35   - Oh, Marc.

00:15:37   - How did that not activate any of our stuff?

00:15:39   - I don't know. - You leave that on?

00:15:40   - I mean, I don't know.

00:15:41   One of us has to have something.

00:15:42   Last time your watch interrupted the show.

00:15:44   - Yeah, I'm wearing a regular watch tonight,

00:15:46   so just that wouldn't happen.

00:15:47   (laughs)

00:15:50   - Yeah, yeah, well anyways,

00:15:51   so we have several options available to you,

00:15:54   and remember that if you cannot buy anything right now,

00:15:58   that's fine, pull the car over,

00:15:59   step to the side of the sidewalk,

00:16:01   tell your children, hold on just one moment,

00:16:03   well, maybe you shouldn't do that,

00:16:04   but just do what you need to do.

00:16:06   Remember that Casey said, remember this moment.

00:16:09   Think about where you'll be

00:16:10   when you can order some ATP merch.

00:16:12   Envision that in your mind's eye,

00:16:14   and think about ordering that merch when you get there.

00:16:16   Do what you gotta do.

00:16:17   So what do we got?

00:16:18   We've got the M1 Ultra shirt

00:16:20   and the M1 Ultra Interposer shirt.

00:16:22   I won't belabor this too much,

00:16:23   but the M1 Ultra shirt is exactly what you would expect.

00:16:26   The M1 Ultra Interposer shirt is where it says max

00:16:29   adjacent to an upside down max,

00:16:31   which is a very, very, very good in-joke.

00:16:33   Marco, how good of an in-joke is this?

00:16:35   - It's actually selling quite well.

00:16:38   - It's like 5X what the Ultra shirt is selling, guys.

00:16:41   - 5 to 6X, but the regular one is.

00:16:44   And I think that's odd because I think,

00:16:47   not that I'm saying people should buy two shirts,

00:16:49   but like the joke works better in the context

00:16:53   of knowing that the regular shirt exists.

00:16:55   And if you just buy the joke one,

00:16:57   I'm probably gonna get both of them.

00:16:59   So who am I to talk?

00:17:00   Nevermind, continue.

00:17:01   - In any case, we've got both of those shirts.

00:17:04   They are black fabric with yellow ultra

00:17:08   or max max symbols on them.

00:17:10   And of course the multicolor M1.

00:17:12   Then if you prefer more color in your life,

00:17:14   we have the M1 Ultra shirt as you would expect,

00:17:16   but only Ultra, not Max Max,

00:17:18   and that is available in a rainbow of colors.

00:17:21   And then we have the traditional ATP logo shirt.

00:17:23   We have brought back the ATP hoodie,

00:17:25   as well as the planked glass and ATP mug

00:17:28   with a slight change that the ATP mug is gray on the inside,

00:17:31   not red, because #supplychain.

00:17:34   All of this stuff is available

00:17:36   until the evening of Saturday, April 30.

00:17:40   So please, if you don't mind, go to ATP.fm/store.

00:17:45   But hey, Jon, if people really just wanna support us,

00:17:48   and they don't necessarily need yet another podcast t-shirt,

00:17:51   even though the Interproza shirt is so freaking good,

00:17:53   what could they do, Jon, to support the show?

00:17:56   - You forgot to mention that if anyone is already

00:17:58   an ATP member or wants to become an ATP member,

00:18:00   you get 15% off if you go to your member page on ATP.fm.

00:18:05   You'll get there, you'll find a promo code,

00:18:06   you can put that into the little promo code field

00:18:09   during checkout and it will reduce the price for you.

00:18:12   So definitely all ATP members should remember to do that.

00:18:14   And if you just want to get 15% off,

00:18:16   just sign up for membership for one month,

00:18:17   use the code and then cancel your membership.

00:18:21   - No, stop.

00:18:22   - And a lot of people have been doing that.

00:18:23   I've seen the merch sale bump,

00:18:26   the member numbers are going to go up.

00:18:27   And then when the merch sales over,

00:18:28   the membership will go back down.

00:18:30   - No, they don't have to though.

00:18:31   - You sign up to get the merch discount

00:18:32   and then, oh, look over there.

00:18:33   Is that sparkly something?

00:18:34   Yeah.

00:18:35   Anyway, is that Elon Musk?

00:18:36   What Casey was alluding to is that these are expensive things.

00:18:40   The shirts are expensive because they're limited run.

00:18:42   We make them expensive because we do 17 printing passes on them.

00:18:46   And of course, the cost of everything

00:18:48   goes up because of supply chain stuff, yada, yada.

00:18:50   It might seem like you're really supporting

00:18:52   the show a super duper amount by buying the super expensive

00:18:54   t-shirt.

00:18:54   And you are, and we appreciate it.

00:18:55   But only do that if you actually want a shirt.

00:18:57   If you don't want a shirt, just sign up for ATP membership.

00:18:59   You'll get stuff for that as well,

00:19:00   and it will cost you far less money,

00:19:02   and we will get more of it.

00:19:03   So ATP.fm/join.

00:19:05   - Indeed, this is all great stuff.

00:19:07   And I am just sitting here so smug.

00:19:09   It's funny, I'm stealing your valor, I guess, Marco,

00:19:11   because it was your idea to do the Max Max shirt.

00:19:14   But because you were kind of pumping the brakes on it

00:19:16   a little bit. - Because you were

00:19:17   pooping your own idea, yeah.

00:19:18   - Yeah, exactly, since you were pumping the brakes.

00:19:19   This is very opposite day, 'cause I feel like

00:19:22   I would be the one to pump the brakes on my own idea.

00:19:25   And you would be the one to just run with it.

00:19:27   But no, now I'm running with your idea,

00:19:29   and I'm telling you that I'm claiming it as mine.

00:19:31   And so yes, the ATP M1 Ultra Interposer shirt

00:19:34   is the clear winner so far, and let's keep it that way.

00:19:36   - I can't believe we actually made it.

00:19:39   - One more thing on the merch this time.

00:19:40   - I posted a Photoshop joke,

00:19:41   and then you guys made it into a shirt.

00:19:44   - Well, that's how it works.

00:19:45   - That's how it works.

00:19:46   - The mugs and pint glasses, like I said last week,

00:19:49   those are the ones where we have to guess

00:19:50   how many people are gonna buy 'em

00:19:51   and order a bunch ahead of time,

00:19:53   and we were afraid that we were gonna end up

00:19:54   with a bunch of leftover ones,

00:19:56   like the pins where we just sold them for years and years

00:19:58   and couldn't get rid of the last of the pins.

00:20:00   So we actually reduced our order

00:20:03   'cause we were afraid we weren't gonna sell through

00:20:04   the things that we have.

00:20:05   And also, as much as we like the gray interior ones,

00:20:09   we did wanna be stuck with five years worth

00:20:10   of gray interiors when the people who want the red interior

00:20:12   be like, "When are you gonna bring the red one back?"

00:20:14   And we're like, "Sorry, we gotta sell through

00:20:15   "another three years worth of gray ones."

00:20:17   So we reduced those orders.

00:20:19   What that means potentially is that we could sell out

00:20:22   of the mugs or pint glasses.

00:20:23   I don't think we will.

00:20:24   I think we've got plenty.

00:20:25   I think we're gonna have leftover, but just FYI,

00:20:27   if you really want a mug 'cause you broke yours last time

00:20:29   or you just want a different mug or you want one

00:20:31   that's less loud than the red interior one,

00:20:35   maybe consider buying your mug or pint glass

00:20:37   sooner rather than later,

00:20:38   because it is plausible that we could sell out of one

00:20:41   or both of them.

00:20:42   Again, I don't think we will,

00:20:43   but just wanted to give people a heads up.

00:20:44   - I can say it makes a very nice desk mug

00:20:46   for like holding pens and scissors and stuff.

00:20:48   That's how I use mine.

00:20:49   - Yeah, that's what my wife uses it for.

00:20:51   I'm kind of insulted by it.

00:20:52   It's like, "Look at this nice bug.

00:20:53   "Why don't you use it as a mug?"

00:20:54   It's like, "No, I like it to hold my pens."

00:20:55   It's not a pen holder, it's a mug,

00:20:56   but yes, it does look good on your desk.

00:20:58   So if you want to use it to hold pens,

00:21:00   apparently that is a very common usage.

00:21:02   - In any case, ATP.fm/store or ATP.fm/join.

00:21:07   And despite what Jon says, you can feel free

00:21:10   to just let that membership cruise.

00:21:11   It's not gonna hurt you.

00:21:12   There'll be more merch sales in the future.

00:21:15   You can do it.

00:21:15   I have faith in you.

00:21:17   All right, let's do some follow-up.

00:21:19   We have, is this the third consecutive week

00:21:21   of original Gravity News?

00:21:22   Never in a million years.

00:21:24   - So are they a sponsor?

00:21:25   What's going on here?

00:21:25   - Seriously, never in a million years

00:21:27   did I think we would somehow milk this for three weeks.

00:21:29   But here we are. So, via Jared Cole, Original Gravity...

00:21:33   - AKA the beer and sausage place.

00:21:35   - Correct.

00:21:36   The Original Gravity people have put up an Instagram post

00:21:40   saying, "Hey, guess what?

00:21:42   Guess who's back again?

00:21:43   No, it's not Eminem.

00:21:43   Good guess though.

00:21:44   You know him, you love him.

00:21:46   The Bavarian sausage.

00:21:47   Starting today, and this was what, the 16th of March,

00:21:50   the People's Wiener returns.

00:21:52   So come reunite with your old friend at Original Gravity.

00:21:55   It is only but one of the many sausages they used to offer,

00:21:58   but it is at least one option back at Original Gravity.

00:22:01   So there you go.

00:22:02   - Hey, it's a start, but hey, maybe by the time we get there

00:22:04   they'll have a full Soft

00:22:09   I feel like I do want to have a word with whoever their person is doing copy for their social media stuff,

00:22:10   'cause they use, they were, W-H-O-S-E, who's,

00:22:13   instead of W-H-O apostrophe S for who is.

00:22:16   - We're ignoring that.

00:22:17   They probably, they probably had some beer first, it's fine.

00:22:19   - No apostrophe in the people's wiener.

00:22:22   It's just, I mean.

00:22:23   - Well, I'm just glad that we have Soft's follow up again,

00:22:26   which is kind of amazing.

00:22:27   And there's a little picture of a sausage and some fries.

00:22:30   So there you have it.

00:22:31   I was gonna say that we did it

00:22:32   because we recorded that episode,

00:22:34   but again, this was on March 16th.

00:22:35   So we did it retroactively kind of.

00:22:38   - Something like that.

00:22:39   All right, with regard to ethernet controllers,

00:22:42   we were talking last week about how,

00:22:44   was it Realtek has a really crummy implementation

00:22:47   or perhaps just crummy drivers

00:22:48   for their ethernet controllers.

00:22:49   And we were trying to figure out

00:22:51   what is the deal with my beloved CalDigit TS4.

00:22:55   And apparently somebody reached out to CalDigit

00:22:57   found the answer from CalDigit?

00:22:58   Oh, you reached out.

00:23:00   Okay, you said you had asked them last week.

00:23:01   - I actually behaved like the journalist

00:23:03   that I pretend to be sometimes,

00:23:04   and said, "Hey, we wanna talk about this in ATP.

00:23:07   "Can you confirm which Ethernet chip you use,

00:23:09   "whether it's the RTL whatever, whatever, whatever,

00:23:12   "three, that's the bad one, or the six?"

00:23:14   Yeah, and today they responded,

00:23:17   and said, "The TS4 is using the Intel i225 PCIe

00:23:21   "to 2.5 gigabit Ethernet controller."

00:23:24   So it is neither of the Realtek chips.

00:23:27   It's an Intel chip and I haven't followed the development

00:23:30   of different NIC chips for a very long time.

00:23:33   However, back when I cared about such things,

00:23:36   Intel always made the best ones.

00:23:38   So I don't know what the exact deal is with Mac OS

00:23:40   and the driver support of this thing

00:23:42   and whether it will work at full speed and everything.

00:23:44   However, hearing that they're using an Intel chip,

00:23:47   to me that's very good news because they used to,

00:23:49   again, they used to make the best NICs in the world

00:23:51   and they probably are still very good.

00:23:54   Whereas Realtek is kinda hit or miss

00:23:56   with their products usually.

00:23:57   So this, I'm happy to hear this.

00:23:59   - Yeah, and then I had made off-handed mention

00:24:03   of the fact that you need to flip some magic switch

00:24:07   in the hardware area of system preferences

00:24:10   in order to get Ethernet to work more reliably.

00:24:11   And a couple people reached out asking

00:24:13   what the crap I was talking about.

00:24:15   And it completely slipped my mind

00:24:17   to put that in the show notes,

00:24:18   but I have put it in this week's show notes.

00:24:19   So I put that link in there.

00:24:21   Additionally, a couple people pointed out,

00:24:23   maybe I just stumbled upon this,

00:24:24   I don't remember how I got here,

00:24:25   but one way or another, I found that they have a FAQ post

00:24:30   with regard to sleep issues,

00:24:32   and apparently it's better

00:24:33   under the most recent version of macOS,

00:24:36   but it's still got a little bit of wonkiness.

00:24:38   So what they say on this page is,

00:24:40   "There are some short-term ongoing intermittent issues

00:24:43   "in macOS 12 and up affecting some Thunderbolt docs

00:24:45   "in general after macOS going into sleep mode."

00:24:48   So they have two recommendations for you.

00:24:50   You either turn off sleep mode,

00:24:51   which is what I've done of my own volition

00:24:53   unrelated to any of this, or, and this is interesting,

00:24:57   reconnect the dock each time you reboot prior to sleeping it

00:25:01   and apparently you only have to do it once,

00:25:03   but once you boot your machine, disconnect the dock,

00:25:07   reconnect the dock, and then magic happens

00:25:09   and then you don't have the problem anymore

00:25:10   according to this page on their FAQ.

00:25:13   So I just wanted to pass that along.

00:25:14   Again, there will be links to both of these

00:25:16   in the show notes.

00:25:17   - We are sponsored this week by Linode,

00:25:21   my favorite place to run servers.

00:25:22   We're at linode.com/atp to learn more

00:25:25   and see why so many nerds like me love this wonderful host.

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00:25:38   and Linode is by far my favorite one.

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00:26:33   I have seen again a lot of hosts

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00:27:07   Thank you so much to Linode for being an awesome web host,

00:27:09   for hosting all my stuff, and for sponsoring our show.

00:27:15   Let's talk about Ecobee's.

00:27:17   Now Eric Powell had some interesting feedback

00:27:19   and Marco, can you summarize one more time

00:27:22   what your issue or confusion was

00:27:24   with the interaction of Ecobee and HomeKit?

00:27:28   - Yeah, basically that every time HomeKit,

00:27:31   every time I would control the Ecobee thermostats

00:27:34   through HomeKit, or they would control themselves

00:27:38   through like a schedule I had set in their app,

00:27:41   a lot of times things would mess up

00:27:43   when whoever has control would switch.

00:27:45   Whether HomeKit did the last command,

00:27:47   or whether Ecobee's internal stuff did the last command,

00:27:49   it was oftentimes very weird.

00:27:51   I would often do things like ask HomeKit

00:27:53   to turn off the heat in this room,

00:27:57   and instead of turning off the heat,

00:27:58   it would go to like auto mode,

00:27:59   where it will use heat or AC

00:28:01   to maintain one of these temperature ranges,

00:28:04   which is very different from off.

00:28:06   So stuff like that, like this weird stuff would happen,

00:28:09   or I would tell HomeKit to do something,

00:28:12   and it would say okay,

00:28:14   and then I would look at the thermostat

00:28:15   and it wasn't doing it.

00:28:16   Or it was just, it was a very strange situation.

00:28:19   - All right, so Eric Powell writes,

00:28:21   "I think I know which problem Marco

00:28:22   "might have been talking about,

00:28:24   "as he wasn't alone with that.

00:28:25   "EcoBee has two hold types, a permanent hold,

00:28:27   "which of course lasts until you change it,

00:28:29   "and a temporary hold that only lasts

00:28:31   "until the next schedule change.

00:28:32   "With HomeKit, for whatever reason,

00:28:33   "EcoBee decided that if you use the Home app,

00:28:35   "the Dingus, et cetera, to change the temperature,

00:28:38   "it would put the thermostat into a permanent hold

00:28:41   "instead of a temporary hold.

00:28:42   "Comments on Reddit complained about this for ages,

00:28:44   "with tips on how to MacGyver your way around it

00:28:46   "with shortcuts, for example.

00:28:48   "However, finally last year, they relented

00:28:50   "and changed the way this works via an update.

00:28:52   "Now the system will do a temporary hold

00:28:54   "when you use one of your HomeKit options

00:28:55   "and will revert back to the scheduled temperature

00:28:57   "when the next schedule starts."

00:28:59   - Got it, so now it apparently is better

00:29:02   at maintaining both a schedule in the Ecobee app

00:29:05   and a schedule on a thermostat.

00:29:06   That being said, I don't plan to try this

00:29:09   because it was a pain in the butt,

00:29:10   and having everything controlled only via the home app

00:29:14   and its own automation and scheduling and voice control

00:29:17   is working fine for me.

00:29:19   And so, again, I think so often we run into problems

00:29:22   with smart home stuff if multiple ecosystems or apps

00:29:27   are trying to control the same thing.

00:29:30   So I think having only one of those things controlling it,

00:29:33   whether you go all in on Ecobee's app or all in on HomeKit,

00:29:36   I think go all in on one or the other,

00:29:38   don't try to mix them because it's just asking for trouble.

00:29:40   Although speaking of mixing them, something somebody pointed out with the little sensor

00:29:45   things that come with some of the ecobee things.

00:29:48   I mentioned that they're a temperature sensor and they're wireless and they're powered by

00:29:51   a little coin battery type thing and supposedly last a long time and they're really neat.

00:29:56   And then when I added it to home kit I saw the multiple things that were like the various

00:30:00   sensors in addition to just temperature, there's like the present sensor or whatever.

00:30:04   Someone pointed out that you can use these things even if you don't care about the temperature

00:30:07   in the room.

00:30:08   the ecobee which ones should contribute to temperature calculations and when they should.

00:30:12   So you can just say like during nighttime hours ignore all the temperature sensors except

00:30:16   for the ones that are upstairs or something like that.

00:30:18   And the other thing you can do is because they're present sensors you can do stuff like

00:30:21   when someone walks into the room or if nobody has been in this room for X amount of time,

00:30:25   fire off this automation.

00:30:26   Also that doesn't feel like we're mixing and matching.

00:30:29   I know you just recommended using just one but like if you use the ecobee to control

00:30:32   the temperature but then if you just added home kit automation sort of just using the

00:30:36   smart sensors as devices, I think they would probably stay out of each other's way because

00:30:40   I don't think there's any way to sort of do the equivalent of like, execute this shortcut,

00:30:44   you know what I mean, from the ecobee.

00:30:46   Whereas in the home thing, if you just use the present sensor device and say, when no

00:30:50   one has been in the living room for two hours, if any of the lights are on, turn them off,

00:30:54   that's a thing you could probably do with, you know, HomeKit and shortcuts and automation

00:30:58   that you probably couldn't do with ecobee.

00:31:00   All right, and then John, tell me about how you found instructions for your weirdo setup

00:31:05   after all.

00:31:06   really quite the same as my setup but it's like it's it's the equivalent so the reason

00:31:09   I didn't find it is because if you honestly answer the questions that these various like

00:31:13   wizards guide you through on their website do you have X do you have Y do you have Z

00:31:16   right you'll never find this because one of the things is asking you like it leads you

00:31:20   down the path of like do you have like the AC adapter that plugs into the wall and I

00:31:23   mentioned you know I didn't have them and I don't want that because then you'd run a

00:31:25   wire up your wall or whatever so I would never go down that branch but practically speaking

00:31:30   what that little wall wart adapter thing is doing is the same thing that those two other

00:31:34   wires I found buried in my wall are doing is they're providing 24 volts AC

00:31:38   you know it's only instead of being plugged into the wall it was shoved into

00:31:41   my breaker box to a little transformer that was mounted to the wall next to it

00:31:45   and then up through my walls through a cable but it's the same thing

00:31:47   electrically speaking so if you do follow these steps and we'll put a link

00:31:50   in the show notes which is not a direct link but it's as direct as I could go if

00:31:54   you follow the link in the show notes then you clip up click on the section

00:31:57   that says step three then you click on the section says scenario a then you

00:32:01   click on the section that says alternate solution you will in fact reveal a

00:32:04   wiring diagram that shows hey what if I have basically a w1 wire and RH wire

00:32:10   and then I have two other random wires that are essentially you know 24 volts

00:32:14   AC coming off a transformer which in the diagram they showed to be a little wall

00:32:18   wall wart but in my house is not and the solution they have doesn't require

00:32:22   putting two wires into a single hole instead they put the 24 volt AC they put

00:32:26   one into C the common wire and they put the other one into RC and then they for

00:32:30   the thermostat wires, they go into W1 and RH.

00:32:33   And I'm sure that would work on mine as well.

00:32:36   In fact, if I ever need to disassemble mine and reassemble

00:32:38   it, I will do this just because it's simpler than my weird

00:32:40   solution of melding the two wires together.

00:32:42   And in my house, I don't have like RCs in theory

00:32:46   for like cooling and RHs for heating,

00:32:48   but I don't have any cooling.

00:32:49   So just having, you know, W1 and either RH or RC,

00:32:53   you just tell the thermostat which one, you know,

00:32:55   you want it to be the one that means turn the heat on

00:32:58   and it should work fine.

00:32:59   So I'll try that if I ever have to open it up,

00:33:01   but for now everything works and I'm not opening it back up.

00:33:04   - Fair enough.

00:33:04   Cameron Wood writes, lots of issues and discussion

00:33:06   on this week's ATP on smart thermostats.

00:33:08   Worth noting that it's a different ball game

00:33:09   in Europe for your listeners.

00:33:11   They use different wiring setups and different products.

00:33:13   Nest, Tato, Tato and Hive are pretty good follow-up mentions

00:33:18   for your Europe listeners where ecobee isn't available.

00:33:21   - There's something that's, I mean, we don't mention this.

00:33:23   It's implicit, but yeah, we all live in the US

00:33:26   and anytime we're talking about anything

00:33:28   that might vary between the US and elsewhere,

00:33:30   just assume everything we're saying only applies to the US.

00:33:33   We have US plugs, we have US electrical systems,

00:33:35   we have US roads, just any of that type of stuff

00:33:38   that varies from country to country.

00:33:40   You know, we can't tell you what to do

00:33:43   in other places in the world,

00:33:44   'cause we honestly don't know,

00:33:45   and you know, in this case,

00:33:47   like the manufacturers might even be different.

00:33:48   Some of these manufacturers we're talking about

00:33:49   may not even serve those regions.

00:33:51   They might be US only, or they might only be,

00:33:53   you know, the US and the UK or something,

00:33:55   so we're sorry that we can't offer a bar of respect

00:33:58   But do keep that in mind before you rush off to do something based on home automation that

00:34:02   you heard us talk about because homes are very different across the world.

00:34:05   CMF in the chat room is asking how I get by in the summer in Boston.

00:34:09   Yeah, window units.

00:34:10   It's not great.

00:34:11   They're heavy.

00:34:12   Why don't you either do the HVAC or do mini splits?

00:34:14   Yeah, mini splits are awesome.

00:34:15   You know the answer to that question.

00:34:16   Yeah, I know.

00:34:17   You don't want to make holes in your house, I know.

00:34:18   But yes, mini splits are a worthy hole.

00:34:22   I don't understand why anybody does mini splits.

00:34:24   They're so hideous.

00:34:25   They work really well.

00:34:27   That's why.

00:34:28   The hideous inside the house, the hideous outside the house.

00:34:31   My house does not have much going for it, but the one thing it does have going for it

00:34:34   is that it looks nice on the outside in terms of being a nice house without a bunch of ugly

00:34:38   crap all over it.

00:34:39   I mean, I cannot fathom living in a place where it gets over 70 degrees without air

00:34:45   conditioning.

00:34:46   Well, the window units do the job.

00:34:48   They're a pain to install and a pain to uninstall.

00:34:50   Yes, because those look great in your windows, John.

00:34:52   They look stupendous.

00:34:53   They look better than mini splits, let me tell you.

00:34:57   maybe inside the house, I strongly disagree on the outside.

00:34:59   - Definitely outside, but they go through the windows.

00:35:00   The windows are already an area

00:35:02   where there's stuff going on.

00:35:03   They don't pierce the wall

00:35:05   and end up looking like these warty things.

00:35:06   - And then when you have a nice day

00:35:08   and you wanna open the windows,

00:35:09   you have one that you can't use.

00:35:11   - But I have plenty of windows, don't worry about it.

00:35:13   There's plenty of windows to open.

00:35:15   - Far be it from me to convince you

00:35:16   that you've made the wrong choice

00:35:18   with regards to your employment,

00:35:19   but maybe you should have hung on for another six months

00:35:22   just so you could get, amass the money

00:35:25   such that you can do proper HVAC.

00:35:27   - It's not a money issue, it's a house disruption issue.

00:35:30   We've talked about this before.

00:35:31   I do not have any air ducts in those little skinny ones

00:35:34   they try to fish through your wall.

00:35:35   Fishing anything through my ancient walls is a big project

00:35:38   and would just, the house would crumble to dust.

00:35:39   It's the type of thing that--

00:35:40   - What if you open the wall and you ended up discovering,

00:35:43   oh my God, there's a whole second air duct in here.

00:35:46   (laughing)

00:35:46   - I don't think there's any secret air ducts.

00:35:48   If anything, there's probably just bodies buried in there

00:35:50   and old radiators. - And rats.

00:35:52   - And a bunch of old razor blades

00:35:53   the little razor blade hole that is in the medicine cabinet that we talked about before.

00:35:57   Did we talk about this before?

00:35:59   Yes, we have on this show. I'm pretty sure we talked about it.

00:36:01   I don't think so.

00:36:02   I don't think we did, Jon.

00:36:03   I know the thing you mean, like the kind of thing you mean, but I don't think we talked about it.

00:36:06   For people who don't know, again, this may be U.S. only. We don't offer this disclaimer,

00:36:10   but it's fresh in my mind because I just mentioned it. In the U.S. at least, back in the day,

00:36:15   when they made a house, they'd put in like a medicine cabinet, which is like a little

00:36:19   thing that's recessed between the studs in your bathroom wall, and it has a mirrored door on it,

00:36:23   usually and if you pull in the mirror door it opens up and there you put all your medicines

00:36:26   and other stuff right it's a medicine cabinet in the bathroom right and what they would

00:36:29   have in the back of the medicine cabinet would just be like a metal thing that's like in

00:36:33   the wall to make little shelves or whatever there'd be a slit in there and what that was

00:36:38   for was when you used to shave with like straight razors back before disposable razors and stuff

00:36:42   when you're done with your razor blade you'd remove it from your little handle and then

00:36:46   you would shove it through the slot and it would just fall down the stud cavity in your

00:36:51   wall to the bottom of the stud cavity somewhere.

00:36:53   - Are you serious?

00:36:54   This is a thing?

00:36:55   - Right, and the reason they do that is like,

00:36:57   oh, it's a razor blade, I don't wanna put it in the garbage

00:36:58   'cause a toddler goes over and finds it in the garbage

00:37:01   and plays with it and they'll cut themselves or whatever.

00:37:03   So, the razor blades are very, very small

00:37:04   and very, very light and they figure,

00:37:05   look, for the life of this house,

00:37:07   it's not like they're gonna fill the stud cavity

00:37:09   with razor blades, just let it fall and it will just plunk.

00:37:11   - Why didn't they put a metal bucket or something?

00:37:15   - Basket, yeah.

00:37:16   - No, it just goes into the wall.

00:37:17   And so, in many houses, if you tear open a bathroom,

00:37:19   you will find is a little pile of rust, a little pile of rusty metal, or potentially

00:37:24   a big pile, depending on how long that was done, the people who lived there and how long

00:37:27   they did it, right underneath where the medicine cabinet was.

00:37:30   I had no idea this was the thing, genuinely, no idea.

00:37:33   I bet you can find good pictures on the internet of like, you know, what does it look like

00:37:36   when you find a pile of those in the wall. But it's a good example of like the childlike

00:37:40   thing of like, look, they're not going to fill this. How long will this last? 500 years,

00:37:45   1000 years, the house is going to disintegrate before this ever becomes a problem. We've

00:37:49   essentially found a permanent,

00:37:50   it's like a radioactive waste storage.

00:37:52   Like, I know what we can do with it.

00:37:54   We'll just put it in between the studs in our bathroom

00:37:57   and it will never fill up.

00:37:58   Only this is a system that actually works.

00:38:00   - We are sponsored this week by Sanity

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00:39:58   Thanks to Sanity for sponsoring our show.

00:40:00   - All right, so we had some interesting feedback

00:40:05   with regard to USB-C KVMs,

00:40:08   and we were talking about how Intel has like a dev kit

00:40:12   that does this sort of thing.

00:40:13   And then Victor Leong wrote us to point out

00:40:16   that there is the MCCI model 3141 USB4 switch,

00:40:21   which apparently is a computer controlled programmable

00:40:24   two to one switch connecting two USB type C receptacles

00:40:27   to a single USB type C plug.

00:40:30   It is compatible with USB4 hosts and devices

00:40:32   as well as older protocols such as Thunderbolt 3,

00:40:34   USB 3.2, 2.0, USB type C alternate modes

00:40:36   and of course, power delivery.

00:40:38   And this looks like exactly,

00:40:41   it looks like basically a packaged version

00:40:43   of that Intel dev board,

00:40:44   which is really interesting and really exciting

00:40:47   and sounds kind of great until I point out

00:40:49   that the list price is just shy of $1,000.

00:40:52   - Yeah, that's quite a switch.

00:40:54   - Indeed.

00:40:55   So from the same anonymous friend of the show

00:40:57   that wrote us with regard to the Intel dev kit,

00:41:01   this individual wrote,

00:41:02   "They did a nice job on this,

00:41:03   but they just finished reading the docs.

00:41:06   It doesn't have quite as much fanciness as the Intel board,

00:41:09   but it covers the basics.

00:41:10   But oof, the price is almost $1,000, bananas.

00:41:13   There are literally three USB connectors,

00:41:15   an MCU, an analog MUX, and diodes MUX in there.

00:41:19   That's like $25 a parts.

00:41:20   They must have done this on spec to Microsoft

00:41:22   and then realized they could charge Microsoft

00:41:23   essentially an arbitrary price for finished units

00:41:25   and no one would care.

00:41:27   So when you can charge a trillion dollars for something,

00:41:30   guess what, you do.

00:41:32   Subtitle, the Apple story.

00:41:34   - It's more like the government contractor story.

00:41:36   - Very true, very true, very, very true.

00:41:39   All right, I'm assuming this is John that put this in here.

00:41:42   Tell me about this video from my best friend,

00:41:45   Linus Tech Tips.

00:41:46   - Yeah, Joshua Prisman sent this in,

00:41:48   apparently in the latest Linus Tech Tip video.

00:41:50   I forget what the actual video is about.

00:41:51   They were taking apart some Mac studios.

00:41:54   Well, they had enough Mac studios

00:41:56   that they just happened to have taken them apart,

00:41:58   and they found two of them that are the same model.

00:42:01   It's not like one is the Ultra and one is the Max.

00:42:03   are literally the same model, the same SKU,

00:42:05   that had entirely different power supplies in them.

00:42:08   And you can look at the video, we'll put a timestamp link,

00:42:11   you can see them holding up next to each other.

00:42:12   They're both circular, they're both the same size

00:42:14   and shape more or less,

00:42:15   'cause they both have to fit in the same case,

00:42:16   but they are not like each other at all.

00:42:18   Two different manufacturers, one is Lighton

00:42:20   and one is Delta.

00:42:22   And there's some speculation that one of the problems

00:42:25   people are having with Mac Studios

00:42:27   is not actually related to the cooling system,

00:42:28   but just related to electrical noise from the power supply.

00:42:32   They didn't say this in the video,

00:42:35   and it's too hard to tell with just two of them,

00:42:36   but it would be interesting to know the people

00:42:39   who are getting kind of an electrical buzzing noise,

00:42:41   which one of the two possible power supplies that they have,

00:42:44   or maybe there's three possible ones.

00:42:46   And they say this in the video,

00:42:47   it's not uncommon for Apple to source parts

00:42:49   from multiple manufacturers.

00:42:51   Very often they have multiple suppliers

00:42:52   for commodity parts like the RAM,

00:42:55   or no one's looking at the individual capacitor

00:42:58   saying, wow, my Mac, it's the same as your Mac,

00:43:00   but my capacitor is made by this company

00:43:01   your capacitor is made by that company.

00:43:02   In this case, the entire component of power supply

00:43:04   is made by a different company.

00:43:05   They've done that in the past, not other Macs as well.

00:43:08   But you'd need quite a sample to be able to nail it down

00:43:13   and say, is the electrical noise just manufacturing tolerances

00:43:17   and variation across all the manufacturers,

00:43:19   or is there one manufacturer that's more susceptible to this

00:43:21   than the other?

00:43:22   Unfortunately, as far as I know, there's

00:43:24   no way to tell which power supply you have

00:43:26   without opening the thing up.

00:43:27   And the MacStudio does not want you to open it up.

00:43:29   And if you did open it up, Apple would probably

00:43:30   to be able to tell, so I wouldn't suggest it,

00:43:32   but just FYI, you know, whether this is because

00:43:36   of supply chain stuff and they were worried

00:43:38   one manufacturer wouldn't be enough to supply them,

00:43:40   so they had to have two of them,

00:43:41   or they just farmed it out and two manufacturers

00:43:44   came back with designs that both qualified

00:43:46   according to Apple specs, who knows,

00:43:49   but either way, there's some variation going on

00:43:51   inside the Mac Studio.

00:43:53   - So now's the time that Marco, you and I

00:43:55   really have to combine our powers

00:43:57   to avoid talking about Elon Musk.

00:44:00   Have you looked into any of the newer offerings

00:44:03   for electric cars like the IONIQ 5 or anything like that?

00:44:06   'Cause we're gonna do a mid-show neutral apparently.

00:44:08   But there's a lot of new stuff coming out

00:44:10   that looks at a glance, at a glance,

00:44:12   looks really, really good.

00:44:13   - The IONIQ 5 is not new and it does not look really,

00:44:15   I mean, I guess it's a nice car but it doesn't look good.

00:44:19   - Well, okay, for the broader definition of look.

00:44:22   - I don't find it appealing at all.

00:44:24   There's the, what is it, the Kia,

00:44:25   one that's based on the same platform,

00:44:27   looks a little bit better, but yeah.

00:44:29   - I actually haven't been paying much attention

00:44:32   except for what we hear from friends,

00:44:33   like Alan and Aric over at Fun Fact,

00:44:37   and talk about a lot of this stuff.

00:44:38   But I haven't been looking too much,

00:44:41   just because it's almost like my heart's been broken

00:44:44   so many times by promises of cool electric vehicles

00:44:47   that then just never come out,

00:44:48   or that eventually come out

00:44:49   and it's nothing like the concept and it sucks.

00:44:51   And so when things do come out, that's good,

00:44:55   but I don't pay attention to the press anymore

00:44:57   in that whole subject area because it's so heartbreaking so often.

00:45:02   Casey was just describing cars that are out, have been out for a while.

00:45:06   Also the BMW ones that are out, although I don't think they're particularly appealing.

00:45:10   The Lucid Air, by the way, is also out, and it is more or less exactly what they said

00:45:13   it would be, combined with what you would expect, which is this is literally the first

00:45:17   car from a new manufacturer, so it's very much like the first Model S. But you did have

00:45:21   one of the early Model S, so it's not like you're unfamiliar with that experience.

00:45:25   Not really, not that early.

00:45:26   - Well, it was early enough that there was weird problems,

00:45:28   right, though?

00:45:29   - Not really, no, I didn't really have any weird problems.

00:45:31   I mean, I had to replace the door handles once,

00:45:33   but that was--

00:45:34   - Yeah, that and the electrical, not the electrical,

00:45:36   the sort of software gremlins in the first versions of that

00:45:39   and with it crashing or whatever.

00:45:40   - I didn't really, that wasn't any,

00:45:42   it wasn't like the drivetrain crashing,

00:45:44   it was just like the screen crashing.

00:45:45   - Yeah, yeah, just the screen.

00:45:46   So the Lucid Air is like that too.

00:45:47   The drivetrain and the car part of it itself

00:45:49   seems to be fantastic.

00:45:51   Every review is going gaga over it.

00:45:53   Of course, it's super expensive as well,

00:45:54   but it's like amazing.

00:45:55   amazing range, amazing performance, amazing sort of,

00:46:00   I don't know what the equivalent is,

00:46:01   but like miles per watt hour, very efficient,

00:46:04   huge on the inside, everything's great about it,

00:46:08   but the software is like, ah, it's a little immature,

00:46:10   maybe a little wonky, it's not poorly performing

00:46:12   like the Rivian, where the Rivian is like,

00:46:14   oh, this feels kind of janky and slow.

00:46:15   It's fine, but it's definitely like,

00:46:17   oh, this is the first car from a manufacturer

00:46:20   that hasn't done this before,

00:46:21   and some of the integrations they promised

00:46:23   third-party stuff is not quite up to snuff yet.

00:46:25   So, you know, but if you're willing to deal with those early adopter stuff, and probably

00:46:31   the door handle will break because, you know, everyone knows something weird with door handles,

00:46:34   like that's just a rite of passage.

00:46:36   That's how we know it's a futuristic car.

00:46:38   Yeah, exactly.

00:46:39   But anyway, the Lucid Air actually did launch and is pretty amazing, and the tech in it

00:46:43   is, for everything I see, like the tech, the drivetrain tech in Lucid Air is the leader

00:46:47   in the entire industry.

00:46:49   Possibly also the battery tech, although I think the jury's still out on that one, but

00:46:52   The drivetrain tag is for sure the leader.

00:46:53   It is the smallest, most powerful, the best in terms of size and weight for what you get

00:47:01   out of it.

00:47:02   It's still slower than the, what do you call it?

00:47:05   The Plaid?

00:47:06   Yeah, it's still slower than the Plaid because the Plaid has three motors and this one has

00:47:08   two, but I think Lucid is going to make a three motor one and when they do, probably,

00:47:12   you know, the, well maybe by then the Tesla Roadster will be out, but honestly that whole

00:47:15   arms race is not important.

00:47:17   It's like the Lucid Air is zero to 60 in two and a half seconds.

00:47:19   Like who cares that it's not 2.1?

00:47:21   It's fine, you'll be fine.

00:47:24   So I would suggest if you ever do look at another car,

00:47:28   since you seem to like the Model S type stuff,

00:47:30   the Lucid Air is 100% a Model S attempt

00:47:32   at a Model S competitor, give a peek at it

00:47:35   because the reviews have been pretty amazing

00:47:37   and it is actually out, actual customers have actual cars.

00:47:41   - And that's good, but I mean like,

00:47:42   but right now, I'm actually, so I'm not looking for a,

00:47:46   that's why I bought my car out at the end of its lease

00:47:47   because I don't like the new Model Ss

00:47:50   and also don't want anything else

00:47:51   that's in the market right now.

00:47:52   And so I'm hoping to get a lot of years out of it

00:47:54   because frankly, the first Model S I had

00:47:59   was I think a 2015 model year.

00:48:00   My current one's a 2018 model year.

00:48:03   And even in 2015, I think it was already

00:48:06   like three or four, like the car had been out

00:48:08   for like three or four years before that.

00:48:09   So they actually had worked out most of the early problems

00:48:13   by the time even my first one came out.

00:48:14   And by the time my 2018 model came out,

00:48:17   it was a pretty mature platform.

00:48:19   - And by the way, speaking of that,

00:48:20   have you ever looked at a video that shows you

00:48:22   the revisions of the door handle

00:48:23   between the first one and the one you have?

00:48:25   - No.

00:48:26   - It's pretty fun engineering,

00:48:28   and it mostly makes you think the people

00:48:29   who made the first door handle were just,

00:48:32   like, someone needed to talk to them.

00:48:33   (laughing)

00:48:34   'Cause they eventually, like, you look at it,

00:48:36   and you're like, there's no way that's gonna be reliable,

00:48:38   and guess what, it wasn't, and the new one has, like,

00:48:40   1/18th the number of parts, and it's so much more reliable.

00:48:43   It's like, oh, geez, guys.

00:48:44   Anyway, yeah, they figure it out eventually.

00:48:45   - Yeah, and like, but the thing is, like,

00:48:47   If I'm gonna jump into one of these newer alternatives

00:48:50   that's out there, first of all,

00:48:52   I would lose the Supercharger network.

00:48:54   And that's still not a great thing to lose.

00:48:58   Like, right now, the Supercharger network

00:48:59   is still very much a competitive advantage.

00:49:02   And I get that over time, eventually,

00:49:05   that will become less the case.

00:49:08   But right now, it's a huge competitive advantage.

00:49:10   And once you're accustomed to it,

00:49:12   you know, it's one thing,

00:49:13   if you're buying your first electric car,

00:49:14   and you know, maybe you don't know what you're missing.

00:49:16   But if you already had access to the Tesla Supercharger

00:49:19   network, to lose that, to buy another electric car that

00:49:22   can't use it, you'd feel that hit.

00:49:24   Like you wouldn't enjoy that when you take long trips.

00:49:27   - I think you might be able to make it upstate

00:49:28   without going to a charger, because the Lucid one

00:49:31   has 520 miles of range.

00:49:32   Does that get you there?

00:49:33   - Oh no, I can make it upstate just fine

00:49:34   if I'm fully charged.

00:49:36   But my car right now has been sitting

00:49:38   in the beach parking lot for a few weeks.

00:49:41   I probably parked it at 75%.

00:49:44   It's probably now more like at 65% after,

00:49:46   you know, maybe after 10 days,

00:49:48   or after two weeks maybe it lost 10%, something like that.

00:49:50   Maybe not that much, but it actually loses pretty slowly.

00:49:53   But anyway, so I'm gonna get in the car tomorrow

00:49:55   when I arrive there, and I'm gonna wanna go directly

00:49:58   somewhere far away.

00:50:00   And it's really nice when you have excess battery capacity

00:50:03   and good range, it's really nice to be able to do that,

00:50:05   but it's also really nice if you don't have the range

00:50:08   to make it home to be able to stop somewhere

00:50:10   'cause you didn't, you know, you couldn't plan very well,

00:50:11   you couldn't leave on a full charge.

00:50:13   Like, having a big battery and having the supercharger

00:50:17   network together add flexibility for you.

00:50:20   - Yeah, but you get about half the range of the Air.

00:50:23   So yes, it's good to have the charging network,

00:50:25   but it's also good to have double the battery capacity.

00:50:27   - Fair enough, but I mean, that's also probably

00:50:28   a ridiculous amount of money.

00:50:29   I haven't even looked at the pricing,

00:50:31   but I'm sure it's absurd.

00:50:32   - No, it's not that bad.

00:50:34   I mean, they're trying to sell like the fancy one

00:50:36   to the early adopters, but I think actually

00:50:37   the long-range one is cheaper than the top of the line,

00:50:39   'cause the top of the line trades range for performance,

00:50:42   which is probably not a choice you would make.

00:50:43   - Well, maybe, but still, yeah, I wouldn't.

00:50:45   But still, like, being in the Tesla ecosystem now,

00:50:48   I have the massive supercharger network,

00:50:50   I have my problems with their software, for sure.

00:50:52   It's still designed by, as far as I can tell,

00:50:55   a moron who has never driven a car before.

00:50:58   - They haven't added a circular steering wheel back either.

00:51:00   - Yeah, but like, seriously, whoever is designing this

00:51:03   should not, not only shouldn't be designing car UIs,

00:51:07   shouldn't be allowed to design car UIs,

00:51:08   it's literally less safe than it was before.

00:51:10   Like, if there were some kind of licensing,

00:51:12   professional licensing to design car UIs,

00:51:14   they should have the license revoked.

00:51:15   Like, that's how bad it is.

00:51:17   Like, anyway.

00:51:18   - Actually, related to weird, bad decisions

00:51:22   made in Tesla cars with the yoke steering wheel

00:51:24   that we were alluding to before,

00:51:26   I saw my first story about a non-Tesla manufacturer

00:51:29   offering a yoke-style steering wheel as an option.

00:51:31   I'm like, please, people, of all the things to copy,

00:51:34   don't copy them. (laughs)

00:51:36   At least it's an option.

00:51:37   It was Lexus, by the way.

00:51:38   - Wait, which car?

00:51:39   - It was Lexus.

00:51:40   - Oh god, well they're not in for their fantastic sign

00:51:42   either but anyway, so besides my recent software UI issues

00:51:47   with Tesla, their platform is mature.

00:51:50   It's very reliable.

00:51:52   I know that I'm gonna go back there tomorrow

00:51:54   and it's not gonna be dead and I'll be able to get

00:51:57   in the car and drive where I need to go

00:51:59   and I know it'll be fine.

00:52:01   I can trust it, it's proven.

00:52:03   I know that I can stop at Superchargers

00:52:05   and they'll all be perfectly fine.

00:52:06   They'll all have space for me.

00:52:08   They will all have working chargers.

00:52:10   The first one I pull up to will almost certainly work.

00:52:13   And I can tell from the car before I even get there

00:52:15   how many spots are free and everything.

00:52:17   And the car can navigate me to get there very easily

00:52:20   and tell me when I will need them and when I won't.

00:52:22   And I also know that if the car breaks

00:52:24   or if I need parts or if I blow a tire again,

00:52:26   I know how to get that.

00:52:27   They have really good service infrastructure

00:52:29   in place already.

00:52:30   They have dealers, they have service vans that drive around.

00:52:34   That's not, when you have a brand new brand,

00:52:38   You have to give up all that and it's much more--

00:52:41   - You don't have to give up all that.

00:52:42   All the manufacturers do all the things you said.

00:52:43   It's just a question of whether

00:52:45   they have as many charging stations.

00:52:46   They all will tell you how the distance

00:52:47   is near his charger and how many spots are open

00:52:50   if they're part of the network

00:52:51   and they'll have a service van come out to your thing.

00:52:54   That's the other thing with Lucid.

00:52:55   Remember the things that Tesla used to offer?

00:52:58   Like, well, $7,500 rebate from the government,

00:53:00   which is the thing that we have

00:53:01   if you're a new electric car manufacturer.

00:53:04   Unlimited charging at their stations and free,

00:53:06   like will come to your house and fix stuff or whatever,

00:53:09   Lucid is still kind of in that phase

00:53:10   where they can offer all that stuff to the early adopters,

00:53:12   whereas Tesla is in the phase where they're kind of

00:53:14   doing belt tightening and you don't get

00:53:16   a free supercharger anymore.

00:53:18   But the service experience is not ideal, let's say,

00:53:21   if they can't get parts or are annoying about it or whatever.

00:53:24   - Now that I've lived through Tesla as a younger company

00:53:27   with the first Model S that I had,

00:53:29   and now that I've had the second one,

00:53:30   Tesla as a more mature company that has

00:53:32   just more mature software,

00:53:34   more mature service infrastructure,

00:53:36   all that stuff, the idea of going backwards

00:53:39   to somebody who has less of that stuff figured out

00:53:42   and basically being someone's beta tester again for my car,

00:53:44   I don't have a high tolerance for that.

00:53:47   So I would rather either, first of all,

00:53:50   I'd rather keep this car as long as I can

00:53:51   before getting anything new, and then when it comes time

00:53:53   that I have to replace this car,

00:53:55   I'd rather either stick with Tesla,

00:53:57   hopefully they have something I like better by then,

00:54:00   or go with a manufacturer that's been around for a while

00:54:04   and that happened to have started making electric cars

00:54:05   sometime in the intervening time.

00:54:08   So I'd be more likely to go to check out the Audi e-tron

00:54:12   or something from BMW or something like that,

00:54:14   as opposed to one of these brand new companies

00:54:16   that's starting from scratch.

00:54:17   - You should definitely test drive it though,

00:54:19   'cause by then it'll be the same age

00:54:20   as your original Model S, like I've had a few years,

00:54:23   work out the kinks, blah, blah, blah.

00:54:25   Fix their door handles, do all that stuff.

00:54:28   Definitely worth looking at doing.

00:54:29   By all accounts it is sort of better built

00:54:31   even than the current Teslas.

00:54:32   That's another place where it's not taking

00:54:34   manufacturers as many years as apparently taking Tesla to figure out how to build cars

00:54:38   correctly without squeaks and rattles with all the pieces aligned. So we'll see how that goes.

00:54:43   So we narrowly avoided talking about...

00:54:47   Avoided talking about Elon Musk by talking about Tesla for 15 minutes. Good job.

00:54:50   I do want to say, just a quick note of memorial for the author of Barefeets, the website that

00:54:58   always had amazing, like benchmarks of all the Mac Pro configurations and CPU options and GPU options,

00:55:06   and always had tons of great comparison work, all these wonderful graphs and everything. The guy

00:55:11   whose name was Rob Art Morgan or Robert Arthur, but he wrote as Rob Art Morgan, and he just passed

00:55:16   away. And I just learned about that tonight. And that was really sad to hear. I've been following

00:55:21   his site bare feet for a long time for years and years and years, since long before this show and

00:55:27   and everything, you know, basically since I started paying attention to Mac stuff like

00:55:30   forever ago. So yeah, just a quick note of condolences to his family and really I really

00:55:37   did enjoy Bare Feet a lot so really that's, it was really sad to hear.

00:55:41   Yeah, I don't know what it says about me or him that I just assumed it was like a bunch

00:55:44   of teenagers doing that site because they were always so like enthusiastic about like

00:55:48   let's see how fast this is against that and let's try this and let's soup this up and

00:55:51   let's overclock that and let's stick this video card into a Mac Pro and it just seemed

00:55:54   like a bunch of really excited, nerdy teenagers

00:55:58   just trying to like, trying out all sorts of cool tech stuff.

00:56:02   And he passed away at the age of 77.

00:56:04   So he was not a teenager.

00:56:06   - Well, I mean, he was, just not recently.

00:56:07   - At some point, but he was not a teenager

00:56:09   when he was sticking cool video cards into Mac Pros.

00:56:11   - Yeah, I was also surprised that he was that old,

00:56:13   but yeah, it was a great site, and I'm gonna miss it.

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00:58:18   - All right, let's talk to Elon Musk.

00:58:23   - No, no, no, no, let's not.

00:58:25   How about Ask ATP, is it too early?

00:58:27   - It's too early.

00:58:28   - Oh man.

00:58:29   - I don't know why you're so against this topic.

00:58:31   - I have a day watch and a night watch now.

00:58:33   Can we talk about that instead?

00:58:34   - Other than you don't like Elon Musk.

00:58:36   - No, no, no.

00:58:38   So here's the story.

00:58:39   So as I was working out, you know, with like--

00:58:41   - People are gonna be mad at you just FYI.

00:58:43   - They're, who cares?

00:58:44   (laughing)

00:58:46   They're mad if I talk about it,

00:58:47   they're mad if I don't, you know?

00:58:48   Anyway.

00:58:49   - No, they're more mad if you don't.

00:58:50   - So, back to Apple watches,

00:58:52   'cause it's anything but him.

00:58:54   - And by the way, this will stay in the notes

00:58:56   and we'll just get to it next episode.

00:58:57   There's no escape.

00:58:58   - There's always an escape.

00:58:59   - It's like the supercharger network, it's everywhere.

00:59:01   - You know how much stuff is buried in our show notes

00:59:03   'cause something comes on top of it

00:59:04   and then eventually it just falls off the bottom.

00:59:06   - That could happen, but this one will probably stay

00:59:09   because this one is growing.

00:59:10   - So anyway, I realized that,

00:59:14   So most people, I don't think most people know this

00:59:16   about the Apple Watch, that if you don't like the crown

00:59:19   on the right side, you can flip it.

00:59:21   You can have it, you can flip the whole watch physically

00:59:24   and then go into settings and you can,

00:59:25   if you go into settings into the general,

00:59:27   I think orientation is where it is,

00:59:29   you can set which wrist you have the watch on

00:59:31   and you can also change whether the crown is on the right

00:59:34   or you flip the watch over and put it on the left

00:59:36   and then the software will then flip the screen

00:59:38   as necessary.

00:59:39   So I, you know, whenever you're like, you know,

00:59:42   doing a workout or something, you do like a push-up or you're, you know, or moving your

00:59:46   hand in a certain way where like your wrist goes up, it's very easy to accidentally push

00:59:50   the Siri crown button and invoke Siri when you don't want to.

00:59:54   I have never had that problem. I was doing push-ups a few hours ago and I've never run

00:59:59   into, I'm not saying your lived experience is wrong.

01:00:02   It depends on the shape of your wrist, maybe like how low down the watch can slide. Cause

01:00:06   if your watch, if you don't have a big bone on your wrist, like it's stopping the watch

01:00:09   from slotting real down close to your wrist,

01:00:11   then when you bend your hand,

01:00:13   like when you're doing a pushup,

01:00:14   if your watch can be down that low,

01:00:15   the back of your hand would hit the ground.

01:00:17   - That's true, I do have a John Sirakison nubbin on my wrist.

01:00:20   - Yes, it really helps.

01:00:21   - That does help.

01:00:22   - It also, it happens more like if I'm wearing gloves,

01:00:25   like weightlifting gloves,

01:00:26   like 'cause then the edge of the glove

01:00:29   can push the button pretty easily.

01:00:31   So yeah, I decided, you know,

01:00:33   let me try flipping my watch around

01:00:34   and wearing it that way for a while.

01:00:36   It was great during the workout,

01:00:37   and I hated it at all other times.

01:00:39   (laughs)

01:00:40   - Isn't this the Chalkenberry approach?

01:00:43   - Yeah, I think Chalkenberry's been doing it for years.

01:00:45   - He's not the only one who does this.

01:00:47   As people are pointing out,

01:00:48   the watch asks you during setup which way you want it.

01:00:50   So I bet a lot of people choose to do that.

01:00:51   - I think it asks you left or right wrist,

01:00:52   but does it ask you about orientation,

01:00:54   about the crown orientation?

01:00:56   - Yeah, I think so.

01:00:56   At the very least, it's prominent in the settings

01:00:58   on the iPhone app.

01:01:00   - Anyway, I can strongly recommend

01:01:01   if you do any kind of thing

01:01:03   where you're wearing weightlifting gloves

01:01:04   or other things in your hand that push that button a lot,

01:01:06   flip it over, it's great.

01:01:07   However, I hated it during the rest of the day

01:01:10   because it turns out I scroll with the crown a lot.

01:01:13   And I was just not getting used to it.

01:01:14   It also, I don't think it looks right.

01:01:17   'Cause obviously the watch is designed very clearly

01:01:19   to have the crown on the upper right.

01:01:22   If they sold one where the crown was on the upper left

01:01:25   instead of the lower left, I would probably buy that.

01:01:28   There's actually, in the watch world,

01:01:30   that's an occasional option that you have.

01:01:32   Certain watch models, it's called something like Destro,

01:01:35   there's some term for it, but certain watch models

01:01:38   will have the crown on the left side

01:01:40   and the side of the right.

01:01:41   And I actually have one of those, my crazy oil-filled sin.

01:01:44   It's a ridiculous thing.

01:01:46   But anyway, I have one of those.

01:01:47   It's great because it never gets in your way,

01:01:50   but when you do have to set it,

01:01:52   if you're wearing it on your left hand

01:01:53   and you're right-handed, that is kind of annoying.

01:01:55   It's more made for left-handed people

01:01:56   to wear it on their right hand, but anyway.

01:01:58   So I would totally buy that if they sold the Apple Watch

01:02:01   that way because it is much nicer

01:02:03   and I'd get used to it for scrolling.

01:02:04   However, I can't get over the look

01:02:07   as my permanent solution.

01:02:08   So, I took out an old Apple Watch

01:02:10   from my drawer of old hardware.

01:02:13   And I set it up as a second one,

01:02:14   and it was totally fine.

01:02:17   That's basically the end of this topic.

01:02:19   I wish I had more to keep delaying the inevitable,

01:02:22   but it was a very easy experience.

01:02:26   I did have to kind of reset the watch,

01:02:28   install clean 'cause it was freaking out

01:02:30   if I didn't do that.

01:02:31   Otherwise, it was a very easy experience,

01:02:32   And yeah, that's it.

01:02:36   What else can we talk about?

01:02:36   Let's start Ask ATP, because we have a lot of it together.

01:02:38   We're not starting Ask ATP.

01:02:40   - I abstain, I abstain because there's no winning this fight.

01:02:44   - I mean, I think at this point,

01:02:46   I think it might actually be more interesting

01:02:48   to ask you why you don't want to talk about this

01:02:50   than to actually talk about the topic.

01:02:51   Because of all the things for you not to want to,

01:02:53   it's not like Casey not wanting to talk about the Mac Pro

01:02:56   because he's not into big powerful tower computers.

01:02:58   Why don't you want to talk about

01:03:00   the Elon Musk investing in Twitter thing?

01:03:01   What is it about this topic that is so upsetting?

01:03:04   - Because I hate Elon Musk, and I hate investment talk,

01:03:07   and I hate Twitter.

01:03:08   - Well, I don't think you hate Twitter,

01:03:10   and investment talk?

01:03:11   What is investment talk?

01:03:13   - 'Cause I don't care.

01:03:14   We don't cover Apple's quarterly results.

01:03:16   We never talk about them,

01:03:17   unless there's something really interesting

01:03:18   that comes out, which it usually isn't, right?

01:03:20   We don't talk about like,

01:03:21   "Hey, you know, you see Facebook's new investment

01:03:23   "and Uber?"

01:03:25   We don't talk about that kind of stuff,

01:03:26   because we're not a financial podcast.

01:03:28   - Right, but this is not a financial story.

01:03:30   This is not a finance,

01:03:31   I mean, it touches on finance, but it's mostly about Twitter and the power of billionaires

01:03:36   and quote-unquote "free speech."

01:03:38   And we talk about stuff like that all the time.

01:03:39   We talk about app store rules and the ability for people to get things into stores and how

01:03:42   much power big tech companies have.

01:03:46   It's totally in that exact same wheelhouse.

01:03:48   The only difference is it involves Elon Musk now, which, granted, I know you don't like

01:03:52   him, but this is an opportunity to, like I said, say mean things about him.

01:03:55   It's not like we're going to-- I don't know.

01:03:58   I find it fascinating that you are so repelled by this thought.

01:04:00   you afraid people are gonna yell at you

01:04:01   'cause like the Tesla people will come?

01:04:03   You already said all these nice things about Tesla,

01:04:05   so they're gonna like you now,

01:04:06   'cause they're gonna say, yeah, Marco loves Tesla,

01:04:07   supercharged network forever.

01:04:09   - They should still fire their software designer,

01:04:11   but no, that's, look, he is a clown.

01:04:15   I love the cars that came out of the car company

01:04:18   that he made, but he personally is a character

01:04:22   that I do not enjoy, and he is, you know,

01:04:26   it very much like, you know, some of our

01:04:30   more negative political figures over the last couple of years. He thrives on attention and

01:04:36   is so often provocative in such a way to get negative attention or to get attention in

01:04:41   bad ways. And I just don't want to support that. I don't want to give him the attention

01:04:45   that he wants. I don't pay attention to the things he does as much as possible because

01:04:49   I don't want to feed the troll, you know? That's what he's doing. He trolls the world

01:04:54   and the last thing you want to do is feed the trolls. And I just don't want to support

01:04:59   I don't want to, you know, have him dictate what we talk about.

01:05:02   I don't want to engage in the public discourse.

01:05:05   Oh my God, can you believe the thing he did today?

01:05:07   What? Look at the stupid thing he said.

01:05:09   Look at the crazy thing he did.

01:05:10   Like, I just, I don't want to feed all that.

01:05:13   There is so much more in the world

01:05:14   that's better to talk about.

01:05:15   I'm drawing a blank right now for more.

01:05:19   But I just, I don't want to feed him.

01:05:22   -Well, related to that, though,

01:05:23   and related to Tesla cars, actually, this is actually,

01:05:27   I think that is not really relevant to this topic, but it is relevant to one of the reasons

01:05:31   why I soured on Tesla cars.

01:05:33   And why I, you know, it's not because I don't want to support, you know, Elon Musk.

01:05:37   He's got, like, he doesn't care if I buy a car.

01:05:39   Like, he's fine, right?

01:05:40   That's not what I'm talking about.

01:05:41   Mostly what I'm talking about is that, and this is kind of true of Apple too, when you

01:05:44   have a big personality who's very much in control of a company, whether it's Zuckerberg

01:05:50   or Jobs or Bill Gates or whatever, even though the company is made up of tons and tons of

01:05:56   people. The founder's personality, the person running the company, their personality can

01:06:03   help but come through to some degree because despite what all the hundreds or thousands

01:06:08   of other people in the company think or feel, especially if the company is tightly controlled

01:06:14   by a very hands-on CEO at the top, the instincts of the employees and the judgment of the employees

01:06:23   can be overridden just because Steve Jobs said everything's got to be leather in this

01:06:28   version of the Mac OS and no one else likes it and no one else wants it and everyone else

01:06:31   thinks it's a bad idea but in the end the buck stops with him and so he just makes it

01:06:36   happen and so you're like boy Apple has bad taste and it's like is it because Apple has

01:06:40   bad taste or is it because one person very high up happened to have taste and disagrees

01:06:44   with yours and they have the ability to make it happen across the organization.

01:06:48   That's a tiny little detail it's not a big deal but in Tesla the thing that really soured

01:06:51   me on the company, is in fact very well tied to Elon Musk as a person.

01:06:58   Because it eventually, especially with all the, it's not that the Tesla fans do this

01:07:03   or whatever, but the general discourse and attitude around Tesla very much reflects Elon

01:07:09   Musk's attitude.

01:07:10   And Elon Musk's attitude, and I'm going to compare this to Jobs because he has a similar

01:07:12   thing but slightly different, but Elon Musk's attitude towards, about Tesla and the cars

01:07:17   is pretty much if there's something wrong with a Tesla car, you got one and it has a

01:07:23   defect or you don't like the fact that the defroster isn't up here, whatever your complaint

01:07:27   is legitimate or not, you have some complaint about the car or your thing came and it has

01:07:31   got weird panel gaps or you've been waiting too long to get your thing or they changed

01:07:34   the price on you when you pre-ordered, whatever your complaint is about the car.

01:07:38   Elon Musk is specifically the person, not Tesla the company, but Elon Musk is specifically

01:07:42   the person as evidenced by his own words, which he has plenty of online, mostly on Twitter

01:07:46   for you to see, his attitude is basically like,

01:07:50   as soon as you say something bad about Tesla,

01:07:53   it's time to discredit you,

01:07:54   say you're just trying to short the stock,

01:07:56   you're a hater, you know,

01:07:58   and let me just dig up dirt on your background

01:08:00   and dox you and just like all the worst kind of things

01:08:03   you can imagine, it's like the second you are not 100% loyal

01:08:06   to Tesla and say anything bad about it,

01:08:08   even if it's legitimate,

01:08:09   doesn't matter what your complaint is,

01:08:11   Elon Musk wants you to die.

01:08:12   And you know, obviously not literally, right?

01:08:15   And it's like, so what?

01:08:16   He's a big baby, like you said, he's just loud,

01:08:18   he wants attention, like that's just one person.

01:08:21   That's not the company.

01:08:22   The company is filled with really good engineers

01:08:23   and employees who wanna make the best cars

01:08:25   and believe in the mission and are doing real good work

01:08:27   and look at how revolutionary Tesla's been

01:08:30   and so on and so forth.

01:08:31   I agree with all that, but at a certain point,

01:08:33   I got the feeling that the reaction of the company

01:08:38   to any problem, any time they do anything wrong,

01:08:40   is to discredit the people who are complaining about it

01:08:45   and deny that anything is ever wrong.

01:08:47   And I never want to buy something as important as a car

01:08:49   from a company that I feel that attitude coming from,

01:08:53   as opposed to a company that's like,

01:08:55   if there's ever anything wrong with our car,

01:08:58   we're gonna swoop down and say,

01:08:59   what do we have to do to fix this?

01:09:00   We're gonna fix it right away.

01:09:01   Now, you can name a million car companies like,

01:09:03   well, they're all like this.

01:09:04   Volkswagen is lying about their emissions things,

01:09:06   and they got caught in it,

01:09:08   and they were forcing their engineers

01:09:09   to make their things, fake stuff out on tests

01:09:12   to spew chemicals in the air.

01:09:14   What a terrible company or whatever you're like the unsafe at any speed, but I remember the company that was was that Ford

01:09:19   Oh, no, Chevy Corvair, maybe

01:09:22   I know exactly what you're thinking about

01:09:24   Yeah, that car is gonna blow up but we're not gonna tell you about it. Like all car companies are bad or whatever

01:09:29   I mean I get where you're coming from that

01:09:31   But just like my feeling of is that Tesla as a company because of the way Musk runs

01:09:35   It is not the type of company that I trust to make a car and that's you know, my personal decision

01:09:40   I don't think that you know again the cars are what they are

01:09:42   If you like them and the best fit for what you want, you know by all means go for it

01:09:46   But that's what I feel for him and that's why I became disillusioned with Tesla

01:09:50   That's why I sold my two shares of Tesla stock like, you know, five years ago

01:09:53   Whatever it was because I'm like no as long as he's running this company

01:09:57   It is never going to be run the way I think a car company should I don't agree with any of his opinions or tastes

01:10:03   And his entire attitude about that about basically everything it does not just Tesla but everything he does he acts like

01:10:09   I'm trying to find the correct analogy for it, but I think we've all met people like this.

01:10:13   It's like, if you are not 100% for them and are just sort of a sycophant and telling them

01:10:19   everything they do is great, as soon as you have one single complaint about anything,

01:10:23   it's all at war, you are a persona non grata, and you are just a terrible person, and you

01:10:28   don't understand, and you deserve the full force of a multi-bazillionaire trying to rain

01:10:35   down hell on you from high and he's not above doing shady things and telling people in his

01:10:40   company to do bad things and to the extent that he's able to force them to do so or they're

01:10:44   on the same page as him, stuff like that happens.

01:10:46   This is before we get into like all the, you know, labor relations stuff and the racist

01:10:52   things happening in his factories or whatever.

01:10:53   You can't blame the person on top for every single thing like that, but when you see his

01:10:56   actual attitude and you see those things happen in his company, you're like, "Yeah, that fits.

01:11:00   I can see how he could know about that and not care because it's not, you know, it doesn't

01:11:04   concern him and it's not a big deal and too bad for those suckers or whatever.

01:11:09   So anyway, I'm on the same page with you with not liking Elon Musk, and so much so that

01:11:14   it just turned me off to his entire line of cars and pretty much anything that he does.

01:11:18   I felt like he is ill-equipped to do that.

01:11:20   I mentioned I would bring this back to Steve Jobs.

01:11:23   His attitude was kind of similar but not quite the same because Steve Jobs desperately wants

01:11:28   everyone to like his products, but if you don't like them, if you don't like them for

01:11:33   for a stupid reason he's gonna be bad about it,

01:11:35   but in the end he does want you to like them

01:11:36   so he's gonna fix the product.

01:11:37   Think about antenna gate.

01:11:39   He thought that was a stupid controversy,

01:11:41   but the next iPhone had a different antenna, right?

01:11:43   And you know, he was pissy when he said,

01:11:45   you want a bumper?

01:11:46   Fine, here's a stupid bumper case, right?

01:11:47   He thought it was unfair and stupid or whatever,

01:11:49   but the bottom line is he wanted the iPhone

01:11:51   to be a better phone.

01:11:52   So it's not like he said, in fact,

01:11:54   all future iPhones are gonna have this antenna design

01:11:56   just to show how terrible you are.

01:11:58   Like sort of the Musk attitude towards

01:12:00   the yoke steering wheel.

01:12:01   You don't like the yoke steering wheel?

01:12:02   Guess what, the round one's not even an option.

01:12:03   I know you saw pictures of it,

01:12:04   but forget it, everyone's getting the yolk, right?

01:12:07   It's a subtle difference, 'cause Jobs is also a jerk,

01:12:09   but he was a jerk in a much different way,

01:12:12   in a way that I think produced better products

01:12:14   and was more aligned with attempting

01:12:17   to do right by the customer.

01:12:19   Steve Jobs would berate underlings and yell at employees

01:12:23   because they weren't serving the customers well.

01:12:26   If you wrote to Steve Jobs with a sob story,

01:12:28   he would forward it to one of his people to say,

01:12:30   "Fix this," right?

01:12:31   and he'd be mean to the people who work for him,

01:12:33   which is not great, but the point is,

01:12:35   he wanted it fixed for the employee,

01:12:38   whereas Musk would say, "Find this person

01:12:40   "and get them fired.

01:12:41   "I know they don't work for us,

01:12:42   "but you can probably dig some dirt up on them,

01:12:44   "but they're really annoying us

01:12:45   "and they're probably just trying to short the stock."

01:12:48   - Yeah, and for me, I avoid talking about Musk

01:12:51   because the contingent of people

01:12:54   who treat Tesla as their team,

01:12:58   and we're guilty of that, all of us, for various things,

01:13:01   arguably the three of us for Apple,

01:13:02   but I like to think that we can criticize Apple

01:13:05   and find problems with Apple.

01:13:06   But as you guys said, especially Jon,

01:13:10   when you criticize Tesla and/or criticize Elon,

01:13:14   there are people for whom Tesla and Elon are their team

01:13:18   and they will do anything, like you said, Jon,

01:13:20   to make it very clear how disappointed in you they are,

01:13:25   and that's what bothers me.

01:13:26   - On that point, Casey, though, about the fans,

01:13:29   that happens and that's a thing,

01:13:30   and it's annoying, but those fans have no control over how Tesla makes cars, more or

01:13:35   less.

01:13:36   And that's why it's so much worse for me.

01:13:39   Even if there was a rabid fanbase like that, like arguably Apple has had, and if you ask

01:13:43   some people, it continues to have a rabid fanbase like that.

01:13:45   And it's annoying and it sucks and it's not fun to be on the other end of that, but that's

01:13:50   sort of a sideshow.

01:13:51   If the CEO of the company is like that, if the CEO of the company has an attitude that's

01:13:55   as bad as or worse than the worst rabid fan type thing,

01:13:59   that's bad because the CEO is supposed to be trying to

01:14:03   make customers happy and make better products,

01:14:06   not say the second you have any kind of complaint,

01:14:10   I hate you forever and I'm not gonna listen to you.

01:14:12   - Yeah, yeah, completely agree.

01:14:13   But let's try to soldier through this real quick.

01:14:16   So Elon Musk has invested in Twitter,

01:14:18   and we're gonna go through a quick timeline which--

01:14:20   - Alright, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:14:23   - We're gonna go through a quick timeline--

01:14:24   - Karen Kilkoff asks--

01:14:26   - No, we'll get through it.

01:14:27   I can do it fast if you don't want to, Casey,

01:14:29   but one of us will do it.

01:14:30   - All right, so The Verge wrote at some point,

01:14:33   I guess like a week ago now,

01:14:34   that Elon Musk bought 9.2% of Twitter

01:14:36   amid complaints about free speech.

01:14:38   So he bought just a little less than 10%.

01:14:41   According to the filing,

01:14:42   Musk purchased the stake on March 14th.

01:14:45   He has long been one of Twitter's highest profile users

01:14:47   and recently polled his over 80 million followers

01:14:51   about the platform's adherence to free speech.

01:14:53   Twitter's share price was up over 25% in the pre-market trading on the news.

01:14:56   Musk has been publicly calling into question whether Twitter's approach to free speech

01:14:59   via a poll conducted on his Twitter account on March 25th.

01:15:03   Like I said, free speech is essential to a functioning democracy, he said.

01:15:05   Do you believe Twitter rigorously adheres to this principle?

01:15:09   The CEO asked before noting in a follow-up tweet that, quote, "The consequences of this

01:15:12   poll will be important."

01:15:14   So the Washington Post wrote that he delayed filing a form that announced his either intention

01:15:21   to or completion of purchasing the stock that he did and because he delayed that nobody

01:15:27   knew he was going to buy the stock so then he bought the stock then the stock went up

01:15:31   25% or whatever I just said so he basically made himself 150 million dollars. Must be

01:15:36   friggin nice. Elon Musk was 11 days late and publicly declaring that he had amassed a huge

01:15:41   stake in Twitter that omission may have earned him 156 million according to a half dozen

01:15:45   legal insecurities experts. That's because of a 50 year old law that requires investors

01:15:48   notify the security and exchange commission when they surpass a 5% stake in a company.

01:15:53   Musk reached that benchmark on March 14th, according to the filings, but he made his

01:15:58   public disclosure only a week or two ago. In between, he continued to buy stock at the

01:16:02   price of around $39 a share, bringing his total stake to 9.2%. After his disclosure,

01:16:07   Twitter's share price rose to roughly 30% and is now above $50 a share.

01:16:10   So the idea is that if people knew he was planning on buying this much, the share price

01:16:15   would have gone up before he could buy it all, because you can't just buy it all at

01:16:17   It's just too much stock, right?

01:16:18   So he's buying it slowly over time.

01:16:20   And when you cross the 5% threshold,

01:16:23   you have to tell people so that all the other people

01:16:26   who have Tesla stock know,

01:16:27   "Oh, Elon Musk is about to buy things.

01:16:28   The stock's probably gonna go up,"

01:16:29   and that would drive the price up.

01:16:30   But by not telling anybody,

01:16:32   he got to keep buying at the low price

01:16:34   because nobody knew that he was planning to buy 9.2%.

01:16:37   And when I say he made 156 million,

01:16:39   it's because he was able to buy the rest of his shares

01:16:42   at the low price that was quote unquote, "artificially low"

01:16:46   because he didn't disclose as the law dictates that he's supposed to that he was planning

01:16:49   on buying more.

01:16:50   But what the hell does Elon Musk care about laws that are involving finance?

01:16:53   He breaks them all the time.

01:16:55   In fact, he's forbidden from being on the Tesla board because of past law breaking,

01:17:00   most of which the SEC didn't punish and just slapped him on the wrist.

01:17:02   But eventually he was banned from being on the Tesla board and got some sort of other

01:17:07   wrist slapping fines or whatever.

01:17:08   But basically he just breaks the law when he feels like having to do with finance, which

01:17:12   is one of the things that you can do when you're a billionaire.

01:17:15   of the many, many things. All right, so after that happened, Parekh Agrawal, who is the

01:17:21   Twitter CEO, wrote on April 5th at about 8.30 in the morning, "I'm excited to share that

01:17:26   we're appointing Elon Musk to our board. Through conversations with Elon in recent weeks, it's

01:17:30   become clear to us that he would bring great value to our board." And then, just a little

01:17:36   while later, Twitter says Elon Musk won't get special treatment from its rules, even

01:17:42   as a board member. Sure, totally. Nelia Patel wrote, "Twitter's in a tough place with Elon

01:17:48   on the board. He's promising changes, but the company's telling us, and by extension

01:17:51   its employees, that Elon is not going to make content policy decisions." So then, five days

01:17:57   after the announcement that he's going to be on the board, the Twitter CEO writes, "Elon

01:18:02   has decided not to join our board. The board and I had many discussions about Elon joining

01:18:06   the board and with Elon directly. We were excited to collaborate and clear about the

01:18:10   We also believe that having Elon as a fiduciary of the company where he, like all board members, has to act in the best interests of the company and all our shareholders, was the best path forward.

01:18:19   The board offered him a seat.

01:18:20   We announced on Tuesday that Elon would be appointed to the board contingent on a background check and formal acceptance.

01:18:25   Elon's appointment to the board was to become officially effective on the 9th of April, but Elon shared that same morning that he would no longer be joining the board.

01:18:32   I believe this is for the best.

01:18:34   We have and will always value input from our shareholders whether they are on our board or not.

01:18:37   Elon is our biggest shareholder and we will remain open to his input. There will be distractions

01:18:41   ahead, but our goals and priorities remain unchanged. The decisions we make and how we

01:18:46   execute is in our hands and no one else's. Let's tune out the noise and stay focused

01:18:49   on the work and what we're building." Tune out the noise like Elon Musk you say? Like

01:18:54   cheesy peasy. Do we have any comments on this or do you want me to just hold your hand?

01:18:58   Get to the final stage so far and then I'll comment on the whole deal.

01:19:03   All right, so Elon Musk is then sued for delayed disclosure of his Twitter stake.

01:19:06   Twitter Inc. shareholder sued Elon Musk alleging the billionaire committed securities fraud by

01:19:10   delaying his disclosure of his stake in the social media company. In the lawsuit filed in the U.S.

01:19:17   District Court for the Southern District of New York on Tuesday, Mark Bain, Rosella, alleges that

01:19:22   Mr. Musk didn't properly disclose his Twitter stake within the required time frame. The suit

01:19:26   alleges that the move personally benefited Mr. Musk and could have hurt other shareholders

01:19:31   who had sold the stock.

01:19:33   And that's where we are today.

01:19:34   By the time you hear this episode,

01:19:35   who knows what else would have happened.

01:19:36   But this is totally in keeping with Marco's description

01:19:41   of the typical Elon Musk type of thing.

01:19:43   The first thing you have to understand is the sort of very basic,

01:19:47   you know, 12-year-old boy misunderstanding of free speech,

01:19:51   that why aren't I allowed to do whatever I want on Twitter.

01:19:54   That's, you know, my first amendment rights are being infringed or whatever,

01:20:00   which is I would hope that everyone listening to this understands the difference between

01:20:04   Twitter deciding what you're allowed to post on Twitter and the US government putting you in jail for saying something right very different things here

01:20:12   but the people get it into their head the idea that

01:20:15   You know that I should be able to

01:20:19   Say whatever I want on Twitter and that if Twitter does anything to impair my personal ability to say what I want to say

01:20:25   That's infringed on my rights and a great injustice as opposed to you know

01:20:30   what it actually is, which is a private company deciding

01:20:33   what you're allowed to do on their platform

01:20:34   that you don't even pay to be on.

01:20:35   And even if you did pay to be on, it wouldn't matter.

01:20:37   It's like, it's a ridiculous nonsensical thing

01:20:40   that basically amounts to a temper tantrum.

01:20:41   Elon Musk has been on Twitter for a long time,

01:20:43   he says all sorts of things.

01:20:44   Mostly he commits securities fraud on Twitter by

01:20:46   (laughing)

01:20:48   pumping up stocks and then, you know,

01:20:50   or maybe not securities fraud,

01:20:53   but he does things like, you know, hyping up Dogecoin.

01:20:56   All he's got to, he's got so many followers,

01:20:57   all he's got to do is say something to hype it up

01:20:59   and people get all excited about it.

01:21:01   And so he can drive the price of cryptocurrencies

01:21:04   up and down depending on what he says,

01:21:06   and he can drive the prices of stock up and down

01:21:08   depending on what he says.

01:21:09   Sometimes it's legal, sometimes it's not,

01:21:12   but it is a power that he has as a person

01:21:14   with a very big sort of cult following of people

01:21:16   who are willing to put their money where his mouth is.

01:21:19   That's just, I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong

01:21:23   with having that power except that what he does with it

01:21:24   is jerk people around and enrich himself

01:21:27   to no good sort of end that benefits the world

01:21:31   or anyone other than him for the most part.

01:21:33   Despite his reputation as like,

01:21:34   "Oh, he's saving the world with electric cars."

01:21:36   Like his attitude and ideas about how to quote unquote

01:21:39   save the world are so terrible and so stupid

01:21:42   that the good he does is very often eclipsed

01:21:44   by the bad he is also doing at the same time.

01:21:47   So that's like, why is he doing stuff?

01:21:50   And why is he buy a bunch of stuff?

01:21:52   Well, when you're, you know, argue,

01:21:53   I don't know if it's the, what stats are,

01:21:55   but someone said he's the richest person in the world

01:21:56   close to the richest person in the world.

01:21:58   When you're annoyed that Twitter is not letting you say what you want, which by the way, I

01:22:02   don't know why he's annoyed.

01:22:03   He's not like he's getting banned from Twitter or Twitter stopping him from saying stuff,

01:22:06   but like whatever, he's cranky about something.

01:22:07   Maybe he's cranky that people respond to him and say mean things and he's not allowed to

01:22:10   like ban them from Twitter.

01:22:12   But what you can do is you can just become the biggest shareholder on Twitter.

01:22:16   And of course you can make a bunch of money at the same time if you don't tell people

01:22:19   you're buying stock and you just say a bunch of stuff about Twitter and then the stock

01:22:22   price goes up after you, "Oh, and by the way, I'm a big shareholder now so you made me a

01:22:25   lot of money."

01:22:26   He's just who cares he has so much money doesn't even matter. He's doing stupid stuff, right?

01:22:30   And then him going on the board

01:22:33   Was so clearly a move by the Twitter CEO to try to put some controls on him, which honestly

01:22:39   It's a pretty optimistic that they're thinking this is gonna have any effect because he doesn't care about laws or anything like that

01:22:43   But if you're on the board of a company

01:22:46   usually there are some rules that you know mentioned in this little thing when he didn't join the board that you that you're you're obliged to

01:22:52   act in the best interest of the company and

01:22:54   Elon Musk would never

01:22:56   Do that like he doesn't he would never want to be

01:22:59   Constrained to act in the best interest Twitter. He's gonna give a damn about Twitter gives damn about himself

01:23:03   So he would never join the board under the constraint that he has to do what's best for the company

01:23:09   He wants to do whatever the heck he wants

01:23:10   so I didn't understand why he was ever gonna be on the board and

01:23:13   Now apparently isn't because either he never had an intention to be on the board or he found out and someone told him

01:23:19   You know if you're on the board in theory

01:23:20   You're supposed to do things that are the best interest of the company's like oh, well screw that

01:23:23   I don't want to do that. I have complete control of Twitter now anyway because the stock price went up a bunch when he bought all

01:23:28   those shares

01:23:30   Everybody who's a shareholder and the whole board on Twitter is like great. We're all richer now, but all he's got to do is tweet

01:23:36   Twitter sucks. Never mind. I'm out

01:23:38   And the price will go down

01:23:40   Right and so now everyone is addicted to the price like the artificial price hike that he has gained by just you know

01:23:46   Saying hey Twitter is great

01:23:48   They're sort of beholden to him if he gets angry

01:23:51   He just has to tweet something that makes their stock price go down and you could say like well, they're all millionaires

01:23:57   Anyway, do they really care their stock price goes down?

01:23:59   I feel like there is actually a set of people who are already very very rich

01:24:04   But nonetheless care a lot about whether the stock price of the company that they are in the process of running goes up or down

01:24:10   And some people that's you know, kind of part of their job like as the CEO

01:24:14   You're not gonna be the CEO for long if everything you do causes stock price to go down

01:24:18   Depending on how the governance structure is set up because there are a lot of shareholders

01:24:22   They're gonna say hey, I have a bunch of stock in your company and I'm losing a bunch of money or whatever

01:24:25   I get it, but

01:24:27   The power that he has which is based on nothing more than his nothing more than his popularity

01:24:32   Which is you know, nothing to sneeze at or whatever

01:24:34   He's got that power whether he's on the board or not

01:24:37   So he declined to be on the board and now he's being sued and it's like anytime I see something like this happening

01:24:43   Like I have lose so much faith in the legal system

01:24:46   I'm glad that some shareholder presumably some rich shareholder has taken it upon themselves to contribute some of their millions of dollars to

01:24:51   To you know track this down, but like if we you know anything about the United States

01:24:57   It is very rare that a rich person faces consequences for anything ever

01:25:02   Right almost no matter what they do no matter what crimes they commit. It is so rare to see a

01:25:08   someone actually face consequences for

01:25:13   you know, breaking some law having to do with security or finance or, you know, it's just,

01:25:18   it used to be that at the very least, like the big rich people would designate some smaller

01:25:22   rich person as a fall guy, right? Sort of, I don't want to give spoilers for a TV show

01:25:26   that Marko hasn't seen, but sort of like a popular TV show where it's assumed they're

01:25:29   going to find someone who's going to take the fall so that the, you know, more important

01:25:34   quote unquote white collar criminals can get away with it. But nowadays, it's like, we

01:25:37   don't even need to do that. We can just, it'll be fine. Like, you know, our banks are too

01:25:41   big to fail, and we can pay for the best lawyers, and we'll just wait this out, and eventually

01:25:45   some criminal will be president of the United States and they'll dismiss all charges and

01:25:48   we'll all be fine.

01:25:50   And so I don't have any faith that this lawsuit will go anywhere, and I don't have any faith

01:25:54   that anything can constrain what he does, because in the end he's got a lot of money,

01:25:58   and he's got a bad attitude, and he's got bad ideas about everything, and he is just

01:26:01   like, I don't know, like a sort of spiky billiard ball just bouncing around in the United States

01:26:10   just destroying everything in his path, making a mess, generally being a jerk with no rhyme

01:26:17   or reason other than to do things that he thinks are cool, make himself more money,

01:26:21   amass more power.

01:26:23   And I kind of feel bad for Twitter because they're stuck with this guy who has taken

01:26:28   an interest in them and decided to use their platform and now by merely tweeting and spending

01:26:36   a few million billion or whatever it is of his own money.

01:26:40   He's the biggest shareholder in the company and they're all beholden to him because he

01:26:45   made the stock price go up and he can also make it go back down and boy this is just

01:26:49   not good for Twitter.

01:26:50   And why do I care about this?

01:26:51   Because I like Twitter.

01:26:52   I use Twitter every day.

01:26:54   I get a lot of value from Twitter.

01:26:56   It's certainly got problems but I feel like the changes over the past several years with

01:27:01   Twitter have been starting to go in a better direction in terms of content moderation.

01:27:07   They still have a long way to go, but from what I've heard from everyone on the inside,

01:27:10   there are people inside Twitter who want to make things better, and they have made some

01:27:15   moves in that direction.

01:27:16   Elon Musk doesn't care about any of that.

01:27:18   To the extent that he has any influence and control over Twitter, all of his influence

01:27:22   is going to be to counteract all the things that I want to happen on Twitter.

01:27:25   And disclosure, I'm not a Twitter shareholder, I have no stock, I don't know anybody at Twitter.

01:27:29   This is just me as a user of their product that I enjoy.

01:27:33   I don't want him to be involved in any way.

01:27:37   And related to that, I'll put this link in the show notes of this New Yorker story.

01:27:40   It's called "Paul Singer, a Doomsday Investor."

01:27:42   I have some personal experience with what they call "activist investors."

01:27:49   That's when someone invests a lot of money in your company with the goal of changing

01:27:54   what your company is doing.

01:27:56   Basically the attitude is like, "I see your company.

01:27:59   Whoever is running it now is doing a crap job.

01:28:01   I feel like if I could tell everybody what to do, your company would become a lot more

01:28:05   valuable.

01:28:06   So I'm going to invest a whole bunch of money and so I will own some large percentage of

01:28:10   your stock, which will give me some amount of power because once I own a large percentage

01:28:14   of your stock, if I suddenly sell it all, your stock price will go down and everyone

01:28:17   who owns stock is going to lose a lot of money if I do that.

01:28:20   So once I do that, you better start listening to me.

01:28:22   And so I'm an activist investor.

01:28:24   I'm going to come in and I'm going to say, "Look, here's how you can make money."

01:28:26   Those people tend not to have a good reputation.

01:28:28   This particular story is about one guy who's got a really bad reputation, the Paul Singer

01:28:31   guy, because he comes into your company and he says, "You could be making more money,

01:28:37   and here's how you do it.

01:28:38   Lay off all these people, cut everything to the bone, remove all R&D, squeeze every lance

01:28:43   penny out of this thing, stock price goes up, I sell, I get out, and your company is

01:28:46   left as a dead husk."

01:28:48   That's a business thing to do.

01:28:50   Private equity, that whole angle is like, "You could be making more money if you ran

01:28:54   your company with less regard for human life essentially.

01:28:59   And that's usually true.

01:29:00   You usually can find a way to make profits go up, increase the stock price, and the people

01:29:05   who come in and do that as activist investors, and then they sell all their stuff and they

01:29:09   make a big profit, and then the company's dead after that.

01:29:11   There's so many stories about that.

01:29:13   So many companies that were perfectly fine.

01:29:15   The one that hit me close to home for silly nostalgic reasons is Toys R Us, which is a

01:29:19   toy store that I grew up with.

01:29:21   Private Equity came into that one and said, "You could be making a lot more money, Toys

01:29:23   or us and they just rung every cent out of that company and then left it and then just

01:29:26   crumbled to dust after they made their money.

01:29:28   It's not quite the same thing as activist investors, it's a similar type of attitude

01:29:31   of like, I've got a lot of money, that money gives me power, I can use that power to make

01:29:37   even more money from your company which I don't give a damn about and once I've made

01:29:40   money I'm going to leave and I don't care what happens to you.

01:29:44   So I hope that doesn't happen to Twitter, but when I see Elon Musk coming in and doing

01:29:48   I have bad flashbacks to activists and investors of the type of like Paul Singer and the Toys

01:29:55   R Us folks that just gives me bad vibes.

01:29:57   I hope it never happens to Twitter.

01:29:59   In the end, the best thing that could happen to Twitter is Elon Musk says Twitter is filled

01:30:02   with a bunch of bozos.

01:30:03   I'm out, sells all his stock.

01:30:05   Twitter's stock price goes down.

01:30:07   Everyone is sad, but then it rebounds in three years and we can just forget about him.

01:30:10   What a troll though.

01:30:11   What an absolute troll he is.

01:30:14   Let's cheer each other up.

01:30:15   Let's do some Ask ATP.

01:30:16   Marco, the M1 was based on the A14 core, both from late 2020.

01:30:20   For the past year, it seems like everyone has been assuming the M2 would be based on

01:30:24   the A15.

01:30:25   Instead, how likely do you think it is that the M2 will come out this fall close to the

01:30:30   A16 and be based on its core?

01:30:33   I think at this point that's becoming fairly likely.

01:30:38   The only reason that we all thought the M2 would be based on the A15 is that the original

01:30:44   M2 rumors were supposed to be for products

01:30:46   coming out this spring.

01:30:47   Namely the, I believe the MacBook Air

01:30:51   was supposed to be the first one,

01:30:52   according to the rumor mill.

01:30:54   And we kinda knew, well it's unlikely

01:30:56   the A16 core would be shipped this spring,

01:30:59   they probably are doing them in the fall for the iPhone

01:31:01   and then maybe a little while later for the M2.

01:31:04   So, I think it's, either option wouldn't surprise me

01:31:09   at this point, unless we do have to wait

01:31:13   until like October for the first M2 based product.

01:31:17   Then if it's based on the A15, it will seem old.

01:31:21   Even though, I mean, I'm sure, you know,

01:31:23   if you look at like the scale of, you know,

01:31:25   number of cores that are in the Mac chips

01:31:27   and you know, how they're configured and what kind of I/O

01:31:30   and how they're clocked and everything,

01:31:31   usually they're pretty performant,

01:31:33   even if it's based on like a quote, you know, old core,

01:31:38   you know, look at the M1 Macs and Ultra compared, you know,

01:31:41   now that we have that are based on a core that came out

01:31:44   a year and a half ago or whatever.

01:31:45   So it'll probably be the A16 if we actually are waiting

01:31:50   until fall for the first ones.

01:31:52   But we still, how the M series chips

01:31:57   get updated over time is still a huge unknown.

01:32:01   And until Apple has a few years of updates

01:32:03   out there on the market for us to extrapolate from

01:32:06   and make predictions on, it's really hard

01:32:08   to really say for sure.

01:32:10   Yeah, I think that if I were to wager guests based mostly on my gut,

01:32:14   I think it will be the 15. I don't think it'll be the 16. I think, you know,

01:32:17   Apple's still getting their feet under them and in learning to, to, you know,

01:32:21   jog and then run.

01:32:22   I absolutely think there will come a time that the M whatever is based on the

01:32:27   equivalent also brand new, a whatever, but I don't think this year is the year.

01:32:31   I think it'll be an a 15 this year and probably for the next year or two after,

01:32:36   and then sometime around, what are we on? Like the M four or five.

01:32:40   then I think it will be happening concurrently

01:32:43   with the A series chips.

01:32:44   But Jon, what do you think?

01:32:46   - Yeah, like in addition to having no historical precedent

01:32:49   for how they're going to do this,

01:32:51   the supply chain stuff is absolutely screwing this up.

01:32:53   Like it's already screwing up a lot of the shipping

01:32:55   of products that Apple is making

01:32:57   because of the COVID related shutdowns

01:32:58   of factories in China.

01:33:00   And it is possibly, we've discussed in the past shows

01:33:03   like how the iPhone 14 was gonna have,

01:33:06   still have the A15 and only the 14 Pro would have the A16.

01:33:09   that could also be supply chain related.

01:33:12   It's hard to tell because supply chain stuff

01:33:13   is not always about your most fancy expensive part.

01:33:17   Sometimes it's just about some little capacitor

01:33:20   or resistor or a set of screws or whatever.

01:33:22   It doesn't matter what the part is.

01:33:24   If it's getting in the way of you making completed products,

01:33:27   it kind of throws a monkey wrench into the whole works.

01:33:31   So I think that is also a factor

01:33:33   in what are the next M chips to be.

01:33:35   The latest rumor is, one of the latest set of rumors

01:33:39   and again, these are still kind of far out,

01:33:40   was that the new MacBook Air

01:33:42   wouldn't even have an M2 in it.

01:33:43   It would come out either in the fall or even next year,

01:33:46   and it would come with an M1.

01:33:47   And that tells me that whatever the roadmap previously was

01:33:50   to try to update the M series chips may be pushed out.

01:33:54   And it's not great when that happens,

01:33:57   but honestly, a redesigned MacBook Air

01:34:00   still with an M1 in it is not a terrible machine,

01:34:02   'cause it's not like the current MacBook Air with the M1,

01:34:05   people are saying, "Well, by next year,

01:34:06   that's gonna be dog slow."

01:34:07   No, it'll still be great, it's fine.

01:34:10   And if the redesign gives more benefits

01:34:13   like longer battery life 'cause it's not tapered anymore

01:34:15   or just a new design and maybe with a different screen,

01:34:17   I think it will still be a viable machine,

01:34:19   but clearly if that happens, whatever their plans were

01:34:23   about revising the Mac line to the next iteration

01:34:25   of the M chips, if those M chips are being delayed,

01:34:29   that really messes up their plans

01:34:31   'cause that is kind of an important component

01:34:33   and how do you even characterize an upgrade

01:34:37   like, oh, we've made all these computers with M1-based chips.

01:34:40   Now we're going to make them with M2-based ones.

01:34:42   But what if the M2 isn't available?

01:34:43   Do you not revise the computers at all?

01:34:46   Or do you, like, for the ones with the form factor revision,

01:34:48   like the MacBook Air, rumored to change the entire case

01:34:51   structure, do you still launch that,

01:34:53   but just with the different insides in it?

01:34:56   Or do you just delay it?

01:34:58   So I think if things keep getting delayed,

01:35:02   if they're delayed into next year,

01:35:05   it may be time for it to be A16 based,

01:35:08   but if that wasn't originally their plan,

01:35:11   which it seems like it probably wasn't,

01:35:13   it's not like they can turn that around and say,

01:35:14   "Oh, nevermind, even though we totally planned

01:35:16   "to make all these M2 things on base on the A15 cores,

01:35:19   "it's so late now that the A16 has been out for six months,

01:35:22   "so we should make them A16 based."

01:35:23   Like, well, you can't do that.

01:35:24   It's years lead time you need to make an Mac-based chip

01:35:27   with A16-based cores in it,

01:35:28   and that's not how we're doing things.

01:35:30   So it's so hard to predict,

01:35:34   but no matter how late it is,

01:35:37   I think it'll still probably be A15 based.

01:35:39   Unless the plan from day one was for it to be A16 based,

01:35:42   'cause again, we don't know what their plan was.

01:35:44   If the plan was M1's gonna be A14,

01:35:46   then we're gonna skip the A15, and then it's gonna be A16,

01:35:48   that will still be the plan, and they'll do that.

01:35:50   But if the plan was for the 15, it's still for the 15.

01:35:53   You can't change that now.

01:35:54   And even if it comes out next year,

01:35:57   it's still gonna be A15 based M2,

01:35:59   if that was the plan from the beginning,

01:36:00   just because the lead times in these things are so long.

01:36:03   Quick aside, you know, I've been hearing about the issues in China with regard to

01:36:07   COVID and you know, factories being shut down and whatnot.

01:36:09   If I were to replace my exact setup right now, so I would replace my 14 inch

01:36:15   MacBook Pro, I would look at my MacBook Pro and in my studio display, my MacBook

01:36:22   Pro will come in at the local Apple store on Thursday, June 16th.

01:36:26   So after, what is that like a week and a half after WWDC or a week after WWDC and

01:36:32   The studio display comes in Monday, June 27.

01:36:35   So by the end of June, I can have my setup back

01:36:38   if I were to order right now.

01:36:40   That is not desirable at all.

01:36:43   Yeah, a lot of the--

01:36:44   I saw a bunch of tweets about this,

01:36:46   about how many different manufacturers Apple has

01:36:48   making various products.

01:36:49   And I think what I saw was that the MacBook Pros are only

01:36:52   made by one manufacturer.

01:36:53   So if they get shut down, that's it.

01:36:56   You have to wait for them to start back up again,

01:36:58   whereas some other products are made by multiple.

01:37:00   I think actually Apple, speaking of multi-manufacturers,

01:37:02   I think they're actually making some of their iPhones

01:37:04   in India now, and if those, so even if the ones in China

01:37:07   that are making that get shut down,

01:37:08   at least you get some supply, but yeah, the MacBook Pros,

01:37:10   I think it's just one manufacturer,

01:37:12   and if they get stopped, you just have to wait.

01:37:16   - All right, Uncle Apple, oh, by the way,

01:37:17   that was Darren Kelkoff, I don't think I mentioned that.

01:37:20   Uncle Apple writes, "Can Marco describe his setup

01:37:22   "for streaming for Team Arment?

01:37:24   "If I remember correctly, you said you each play

01:37:26   "on gaming laptops and are streaming

01:37:28   "from an M1 MacBook Pro.

01:37:30   "How are you getting six video feeds onto one stream?

01:37:33   "Maybe Elgato capture cards and OBS?"

01:37:36   - So, in short, yes.

01:37:38   That is exactly what I'm doing.

01:37:39   So I think I've, have I talked about it before?

01:37:43   I don't remember.

01:37:43   - Yeah, I think you did very briefly

01:37:45   with a little bit of hand-waving going on,

01:37:46   because we weren't trying to get into the weeds

01:37:48   at that point.

01:37:49   - Yeah, so what I have, so yeah,

01:37:51   we have three gaming PCs being captured over HDMI.

01:37:55   Each one runs into an Elgato HD60S Plus,

01:37:59   which is one of these little gamer capture devices.

01:38:02   And those all output to USB into a,

01:38:07   mostly into a CalDigit TS3 Plus Thunderbolt dock,

01:38:10   'cause it has a whole bunch of USB ports.

01:38:12   Some C, some A.

01:38:13   I also, each computer, because I wanted the output

01:38:17   of the computer's webcam to be included,

01:38:20   like using the built-in one,

01:38:22   I didn't initially know of a way to do that.

01:38:24   And so we just got some cheap Logitech webcams.

01:38:26   See, whatever Logitech webcam is like 50 bucks

01:38:31   that everyone recommends.

01:38:32   We got a few of those, one on top of each computer

01:38:35   and then those are also wired via USB into the TS3 Plus.

01:38:39   And all of that then runs over Thunderbolt

01:38:42   into the MacBook Pro.

01:38:44   And yes, OBS is indeed the software running all of this.

01:38:48   That being said, this setup is finicky and unreliable.

01:38:52   and I am not super happy with it,

01:38:54   and I'm looking to potentially maybe change some things

01:38:58   up about it if we're gonna do this,

01:39:01   if we're gonna keep doing this longer,

01:39:02   but we actually just had a little bit of a family meeting

01:39:04   the other night at dinner, and we're like,

01:39:05   all right, something is flaking out about the capture,

01:39:07   it's one of the Elgatos I believe is flaking out,

01:39:10   and I'm like, all right, do we as a family,

01:39:13   are we happy doing the streaming,

01:39:14   are we gonna keep doing more of it?

01:39:17   Because if we're gonna keep doing more of it,

01:39:18   I might wanna get more reliable hardware to capture it,

01:39:21   but if we're kind of petering out

01:39:23   and we're almost done with it,

01:39:24   maybe we'll just keep what we have

01:39:25   and use it 'til we get bored and move on to something else.

01:39:28   And the family decided we're gonna keep doing it for awhile.

01:39:30   So I learned in the intervening time,

01:39:33   so okay, so first of all, just quick aside,

01:39:35   the parts that are unreliable seem to be

01:39:38   those Elgato HD60S Plus capture dongles.

01:39:41   When you have consumer grade hardware,

01:39:45   a lot of times when people look at the cost

01:39:49   of pro AV hardware, which is pro hardware in general,

01:39:53   whatever it is.

01:39:54   Pro hardware oftentimes is significantly more expensive

01:39:57   than consumer grade hardware that allegedly does

01:40:00   quote the same thing.

01:40:02   Now in practice, usually it's not the same thing.

01:40:05   Usually the pro hardware has additional features

01:40:08   or needs that cater more to pros.

01:40:09   But a lot of what you pay for with pro hardware

01:40:12   is it's just more reliable usually.

01:40:14   Again, not always, there are exceptions,

01:40:16   but usually it is significantly more reliable

01:40:18   or it works better in more circumstances,

01:40:21   or it has more tolerances so that things are less likely

01:40:24   to break after a year or whatever.

01:40:27   And so that's the kind of thing you pay for at Pro Hardware.

01:40:30   And what I'm capturing with here,

01:40:32   Elgato is a fine company, the hardware,

01:40:34   it works most of the time, but it's really consumer grade.

01:40:38   Like most consumer grade hardware,

01:40:39   it seems to work just barely.

01:40:41   And so I already had to solve one problem.

01:40:44   I wasn't sure if it was a bandwidth issue

01:40:46   with the CalDigit TS3+ hub or what,

01:40:49   but I already had one of them, for whatever reason,

01:40:52   would just never work reliably through the hub,

01:40:55   so I had to then use up one of my precious

01:40:57   onboard laptop USB-C ports.

01:40:59   So that's two ports right there.

01:41:01   My third port is taken up by,

01:41:04   this is actually kind of a happy story,

01:41:06   it turns out if you want a monitor,

01:41:10   like a portable monitor in the 12 to 15 inch range,

01:41:15   There's a million of them out there

01:41:16   and they're really inexpensive.

01:41:18   They're like 200 bucks or less.

01:41:20   What we needed, the way we're kind of set up

01:41:22   in like an L shape around this giant kitchen island,

01:41:25   I can see the laptop but Tiff and Adam can't

01:41:27   and so I wanted a monitor that I could just put

01:41:31   in front of them so they can see the stream output

01:41:34   because otherwise they can't even see themselves

01:41:36   in the webcams.

01:41:37   So by them seeing this, they're able to see

01:41:39   all three of our screens and themselves in the webcam

01:41:42   to keep themselves in frame and stuff like that.

01:41:43   So I needed a screen.

01:41:45   I first used an iPad for that using whatever the iPad

01:41:48   screen mirroring thing is called.

01:41:49   And that was both a pain to set up,

01:41:52   'cause every time, like literally every single time

01:41:54   we were streaming, I had to like go into display settings,

01:41:57   click on add, add the display, and wait for it to turn on.

01:42:00   And that would work about 90% of the time.

01:42:03   And that's not good enough.

01:42:04   And so eventually I'm like, you know, this is stupid.

01:42:07   So I just got this external display.

01:42:10   First got one that was some no name from Amazon,

01:42:13   and it was garbage, it kept flickering.

01:42:15   Eventually returned that one and got one from Lenovo.

01:42:19   It's this wonderful little folding Lenovo,

01:42:22   I think it's about 14 inches,

01:42:25   and it was again like 200 bucks,

01:42:26   and it's pretty good.

01:42:27   None of these are good retina or anything,

01:42:30   but for the purpose of an external monitor

01:42:32   for showing something to somebody, it's fine.

01:42:35   So the Lenovo one's great, so that's our monitor.

01:42:37   But anyway, so that's port number three,

01:42:39   that's all my ports.

01:42:40   So I have one of my USB-Cs going to the Thunderbolt hub,

01:42:44   with most of the stuff on it,

01:42:46   one USB-C going directly to the third Elgato capture thing,

01:42:49   'cause it won't work through the hub for who knows why,

01:42:51   and then the third USB-C going to this monitor,

01:42:53   and then that's it, now I'm full.

01:42:55   Now, this setup I am not super happy with, as I mentioned,

01:43:00   because it is still not 100% reliable.

01:43:03   It works most of the time, but it's still not 100% reliable.

01:43:06   And so I'm looking into alternatives.

01:43:08   I haven't had time to do many of them yet.

01:43:10   One thing that I didn't know about when I first set this up

01:43:13   but I'm now experimenting with is this protocol called NDI.

01:43:16   This is a thing that is basically a network-based

01:43:20   video transmitting protocol.

01:43:23   And you can set up NDI on the PCs and on the Mac,

01:43:28   this free package called NDI Tools

01:43:30   that basically allows you to send and receive video

01:43:33   between computers on the network

01:43:34   and it can do things like capture the screen

01:43:36   as one of the video sources

01:43:37   and then send that over the network.

01:43:39   it can capture the PC's local webcam.

01:43:41   It's built into their screen lids

01:43:43   and send that over the network.

01:43:44   And so I'm trying to see if I can use NDI

01:43:48   to potentially replace some or all of this capture setup.

01:43:53   Oh, the audio is a whole separate thing.

01:43:55   That's all running into a mix pre with auto mixing

01:43:57   and we all have headsets, it's a whole thing.

01:43:59   That's my thing. (laughs)

01:44:01   But anyway, the video is the real challenging part here.

01:44:04   So anyway, I'm looking into using NDI for some of it.

01:44:08   I also have considered other options.

01:44:09   So for instance, right now I'm capturing three HDMI streams

01:44:14   at their, whatever it is, 1080p probably,

01:44:18   and then shrinking those down for display and OBS.

01:44:21   Well, you could also, there exist these boxes

01:44:25   that are basically HDMI multiplexer boxes

01:44:28   that, what you do for a security camera kind of viewer,

01:44:32   where if you wanna convert four inputs

01:44:35   into a two by two grid on the screen,

01:44:38   there's a piece of hardware that will do that for you

01:44:39   for like 100 bucks.

01:44:41   So one thing I could do is put one of those,

01:44:44   have all of the computers going into that,

01:44:47   and then only be capturing from one

01:44:49   Elgato capture dongle thing.

01:44:51   And that would probably make it more reliable.

01:44:54   There's other challenges with those,

01:44:55   but they're minor, so I could probably get around that.

01:44:57   That's one option.

01:44:59   Another option is I could upgrade to better capture gear

01:45:03   that is made to capture multiple streams at once,

01:45:06   and that is somewhat good.

01:45:07   and that would probably involve some kind of PCI express

01:45:10   card in a thunderbolt enclosure.

01:45:12   That's its own can of worms that I'd rather not

01:45:14   necessarily tackle if I don't need to,

01:45:16   but that's an option as well.

01:45:18   So these are things I'm looking at.

01:45:20   I love the idea of having more pro-grade hardware

01:45:23   to do this, however, pro-grade audio hardware is one thing,

01:45:28   pro-grade video hardware is a different ballgame.

01:45:31   Pro-grade video hardware is, first of all,

01:45:34   thousands of dollars, like it's significantly more expensive, and it's usually significantly bigger,

01:45:39   and possibly requires like super weird software. And so that's kind of a whole can of worms I would

01:45:46   hopefully not need to get into, but we'll see. I mean, the other thing I could do is just,

01:45:51   you know, buy like two extra Elgato HD capture cards and just when one gets flaky, just swap it

01:45:56   out. But I would hate that for like moral reasons. I don't like the idea of buying more of this thing

01:46:03   that is flaky is not, I mean, I guess that's my plan

01:46:07   for my home pods, but I guess I'd rather,

01:46:10   I don't love that solution, so we'll see.

01:46:12   I'm hoping I can, maybe I can alleviate the,

01:46:16   enough of the bottlenecks with NDI

01:46:18   that maybe I can then simplify things a little bit further,

01:46:21   so we'll see, I'll play with it.

01:46:23   - I'm kind of surprised on your, like,

01:46:25   'cause I watch some video game streamers or whatever,

01:46:28   and I suppose they're not doing three people

01:46:29   like you are or whatever, but there are people

01:46:32   who essentially do this for their living.

01:46:34   And I can't imagine them dealing with flaky setups.

01:46:37   You know what I mean?

01:46:37   Like, especially if you've been doing this for like a decade

01:46:39   and it's your main career, like inevitably those people

01:46:42   must eventually find a solution that is actually reliable.

01:46:46   Because like, you know, they're streaming

01:46:47   for eight hours a day.

01:46:49   It's just, they're not gonna tolerate dealing with that.

01:46:52   And like, so do all of them have, you know,

01:46:56   big tower PCs with internal video capture cards?

01:46:59   Maybe, maybe their situation is just so much simpler

01:47:01   than yours because they're just one person who is capturing and streaming themselves

01:47:06   and they're not capturing and streaming three people, but they do multi-stream stuff with

01:47:10   other people sometimes, so I do wonder what the state of the art is there. I know Elgato

01:47:14   is a name I hear come up a lot and maybe, does Elgato make an internal card? Maybe that's

01:47:18   why I hear it as well, like a capture card for PCs?

01:47:20   I don't know. I think I'd be going to like Blackmagic or something like that, one of

01:47:25   the pro companies like that.

01:47:26   Yeah, but I have to think, yeah, maybe Blackmagic, but I have to think though that despite the

01:47:30   existence of extremely wealthy and extremely knowledgeable streamers, there's this sort

01:47:36   of whole middle ground of streamers who do not have bazillions of dollars and nevertheless

01:47:40   stream hours and hours every single day.

01:47:43   So there must be some kind of consumer grade solution that is eventually reliable.

01:47:48   So I have some faith that you can in some way solve this without moving to "pro" equipment

01:47:54   because I just don't think that streamers are doing that.

01:47:58   of them are doing that, but they just don't have the money to.

01:48:00   You don't make that much money on Twitch streaming unless you're one of the big top 100 people.

01:48:05   I think though you're right, part of it is that most people don't have three people in

01:48:10   one room and most people probably are not trying to run it off of a Mac.

01:48:15   Yeah, that could be part of it.

01:48:17   Honestly though, it's fine.

01:48:19   The part that runs on the Mac seems to be rock solid reliable.

01:48:22   OBS runs great on the Mac, it's totally fine.

01:48:25   That's not something I've heard from people.

01:48:27   OBS runs great on the Mac is not a phrase

01:48:29   that comes up a lot on the internet.

01:48:30   - Well, it does for me.

01:48:32   'Cause maybe, keep in mind, what I'm giving OBS as a task

01:48:36   is actually somewhat easy in the sense that

01:48:38   it doesn't have to capture anything on the Mac.

01:48:40   It's not capturing the Mac screen.

01:48:41   It's only taking inputs from USB devices

01:48:45   and arranging them into a video signal

01:48:47   and transmitting that.

01:48:49   Maybe I'm giving it an easy problem, but that's been fine.

01:48:52   The PC streamers, I think a lot of them are,

01:48:55   almost all of them I think are just one computer probably running the capture on that computer.

01:49:01   So it's a computer capturing its own screen.

01:49:03   Yeah, well they're not doing multiple people most of the time but I think most of them

01:49:06   do have a minimum two computers and maybe it's basically doing capture on another computer

01:49:09   but often it's because they have like a computer for doing like video stuff and then they have

01:49:13   their gaming PC and they're not the same machine.

01:49:15   Oh yeah maybe or they want to be able to see OBS running on its own thing and have independent

01:49:19   control, but yeah, so it's simpler than,

01:49:22   what I'm doing is hard mode here for a home setup,

01:49:26   and also because this is effectively in our kitchen,

01:49:30   I also don't want a desktop computer to be involved,

01:49:33   I don't want a whole bunch of gear if I don't have,

01:49:35   less gear here is better because of the setup,

01:49:38   I would love for this to be a little more portable,

01:49:40   or just take up a little less space,

01:49:42   and be less complicated, have fewer individual parts

01:49:45   that can break or flake out, but ultimately,

01:49:48   This is one of those things where if you have one,

01:49:51   like auto HD60 S plugged into a computer,

01:49:53   probably works fine most of the time.

01:49:55   But once you wanna have three of them

01:49:58   working at the same time, oh, and then, by the way,

01:50:00   you have to involve a Thunderbolt hub

01:50:02   because you don't have three USB ports on your computer,

01:50:04   like there's so many more complexities there,

01:50:05   and it's one of those things where these products

01:50:08   were clearly designed and tested mostly

01:50:10   for single use cases, simple use cases.

01:50:13   And then when someone like me comes in,

01:50:15   and like, oh, how about I just buy three of them

01:50:17   and use them at the same time?

01:50:18   Everyone's like, mm, mm, I don't know,

01:50:20   maybe we shouldn't officially support that,

01:50:23   or using, I gotta go on CalDigit.

01:50:27   I'm literally filling almost every port on the hub.

01:50:29   I think I have one port free.

01:50:31   I'm plugged, 'cause I have three Elgato capture devices

01:50:35   and three webcams and a USB interface for the audio

01:50:40   all plugged into one, or I guess one is not plugged into it

01:50:45   'cause it's, anyway.

01:50:47   It's a lot going through these devices.

01:50:48   Now these devices are all, officially,

01:50:51   they all support this.

01:50:53   On the marketing pages for the CalDigit,

01:50:55   you see things like with every port full,

01:50:57   you know, they have all these ports,

01:50:59   they probably expect you to use them, right?

01:51:00   But it's one of these things where if you actually use

01:51:04   the full capacity of some of these things,

01:51:06   it doesn't always work the way you think,

01:51:08   or it often has some kind of flaw.

01:51:11   Certain things will be like possible bandwidth limitations.

01:51:15   Like I found when I was setting this up

01:51:16   that where things were plugged in on the CalDigit mattered.

01:51:19   Now the CalDigit, it's actually helpful,

01:51:21   it tells you, it's labeled on the ports,

01:51:23   like it'll say like five gigabits

01:51:25   and it'll have like a little bracket showing you like,

01:51:27   all right, these two ports share

01:51:28   five gigabits of bandwidth, right?

01:51:30   So it's actually good, so I spread out

01:51:32   like the high bandwidth capture cards

01:51:35   kind of like on their own like sections of the hub,

01:51:37   so they wouldn't all be on the same one

01:51:40   to try to help that problem.

01:51:41   But it's still kind of finicky and that makes me nervous.

01:51:46   and I hate dealing with it when it breaks.

01:51:48   And so I should probably switch to something

01:51:52   that is a little bit more pro in some area.

01:51:55   But what that means and whether I can stomach

01:51:58   whatever trade-offs it'll require, that's another story.

01:52:00   - I mean, I think it means you get a tower PC

01:52:02   to be your capture device and you buy one of those

01:52:04   capture cards that goes in PC

01:52:05   and you do everything in Windows.

01:52:07   - I mean, that could be the answer.

01:52:08   Like, maybe, I don't know.

01:52:09   I'd rather that not be the answer,

01:52:11   but maybe that is the answer.

01:52:13   Who knows, I hope not.

01:52:16   Simon Edgsing writes, "Considering the probably huge amounts that Apple has invested in mini-LED

01:52:21   tech, is it really feasible for them to replace it with OLED in laptops and iMacs in the coming

01:52:25   years as rumors seem to suggest?"

01:52:27   I'm going to leave this to our display expert, Mr. John Siracusa.

01:52:30   I'm not sure how much Apple has invested in mini-LED tech because Apple wasn't at the

01:52:34   forefront of that and it's not like they invented the technology.

01:52:37   Very often Apple will pay for some of the R&D or pay for the factories or pay for the

01:52:41   tooling or pay someone to develop a product to their specifications, like they will contribute

01:52:45   money towards this for other companies to make tech for them.

01:52:49   But I'm not actually sure how much they did that with MiniLED because they weren't really

01:52:52   first to market with that.

01:52:53   In terms of replacing it with OLEDs, the problem that OLED has now is there are no OLEDs that

01:53:01   can match the maximum brightness of even the laptop.

01:53:06   The 1600 nits that you get out of the XDR and you get out of the MacBook Pro screens,

01:53:12   no OLED can reach that.

01:53:14   on a 10% window OLEDs can't reach that.

01:53:16   They just can't get that bright.

01:53:18   And that's with unlimited power plugged into the wall.

01:53:20   I'm not even sure how it would be for OLEDs

01:53:23   in a laptop type scenario.

01:53:25   So right now it's not feasible, but in the coming years,

01:53:29   I mean, it's kind of a, it's a race in screen technologies.

01:53:34   QD OLED has the potential to be brighter

01:53:38   than the current crop of OLEDs.

01:53:40   Again, I don't know how well that would work in a laptop,

01:53:42   but still no existing QD OLEDs can get up to 1600 nits.

01:53:45   And it's not like 1600 nits is the limit.

01:53:47   I think there is more room,

01:53:50   like some video sources these days

01:53:52   are mastered to 4000 nits.

01:53:54   There's nothing that you can buy in a consumer level

01:53:56   that can display 4000 nits.

01:53:57   Everything is sort of display mapped down to,

01:53:59   not display mapped, what is it called?

01:54:01   Something starts to do dynamic, tone map, there we go.

01:54:06   It's tone mapped down to scale down

01:54:08   to the right thing or whatever.

01:54:09   The point is 1600 nits isn't the limit.

01:54:13   So I think there's still some legs in mini LED that OLED may or may not be able to catch

01:54:20   up with.

01:54:21   It doesn't mean that OLED is going to be useless though because in scenarios where you don't

01:54:24   need that kind of brightness, like the Apple Studio Display ring only goes to 600 nits

01:54:28   and even then only on a small window if you do a full screen.

01:54:31   I forget what the thing is on the Apple Studio Display.

01:54:33   I think it's maybe like 100 something nits, 200 something.

01:54:37   OLED can match that right now, but of course it would be more expensive.

01:54:41   I think there is the possibility to go to OLED in scenarios where you don't need the

01:54:46   super high maximum brightness.

01:54:48   And then to go beyond that, we have to find out which technology eventually reaches and

01:54:55   surpasses 600 nits that's not MiniLED.

01:54:56   And by the way, the reason you don't want MiniLED is because of blooming.

01:55:00   It has regions of backlight that are much bigger than pixels, whereas OLED lights up

01:55:04   individual pixels so you don't have to worry about, you know, if you have a black star

01:55:08   field and you have a white pinprick of a star, Mini LED has to light up an entire one, like

01:55:12   one inch by one inch or one centimeter by one centimeter or whatever square of light

01:55:16   behind that pinprick of a star.

01:55:18   And so the pinprick is really bright, but also around the star you get a little bit

01:55:22   of bleed through what's supposed to just be black space.

01:55:24   Whereas OLED doesn't have that problem, it will literally only turn on the two or three

01:55:27   pixels that make up the star and the other pixels will be off and not producing any light.

01:55:32   So OLED has that ability, so does microLED where every single little pixel is its own

01:55:37   tiny little LED.

01:55:39   If that technology eventually becomes feasible in consumer sized displays and also has high

01:55:43   brightness that is another contender.

01:55:47   But in the next few years I don't see OLED sweeping across Apple's product line.

01:55:51   Especially considering how conservative Apple has been on screen technology on the Mac.

01:55:57   There are no OLED Macs and practically speaking, there are really no extremely popular OLED

01:56:03   screens.

01:56:04   The QD OLED Alienware Dell thing is like the first pretty darn good OLED based display

01:56:11   and even that because of the, whatever it is, the range of sub pixels on it is a little

01:56:17   weird so you probably wouldn't want to use it as a computer monitor.

01:56:20   It's good for the gaming monitor if you're just playing a game or whatever but you use

01:56:23   it to show text.

01:56:24   At the very least Windows seems to not understand the little it's red green and blue sub pixels

01:56:29   are in like a little triangle shape and Windows seems to not understand that they're in a

01:56:31   triangle shape so it tries to treat them like they're red green and blue and vertical stripes

01:56:35   like most computer monitors are and it adds color fringes on everything.

01:56:39   Yeah, not a problem for TVs, not a problem for playing games, but probably not the way

01:56:43   you want to read text at least until and unless operating systems can be updated to support

01:56:46   it.

01:56:47   So I think you probably got a five year wait to see something fully replacing many other

01:56:54   LED on the screens that have 1600 nits

01:56:57   and that brightness are higher.

01:56:59   - Finally, John Yergatian writes,

01:57:01   "If the studio display had been released

01:57:03   "alongside the Pro Display XDR,

01:57:05   "would John and Marco still have chosen the XDR?"

01:57:07   This is a great question, which I have a feeling

01:57:09   will have a very boring set of answers,

01:57:11   but this is a really good one.

01:57:13   So let's start with Marco.

01:57:14   Would you have bought the Pro Display XDR

01:57:16   or would you have just bought one

01:57:17   or multiple studio displays?

01:57:19   - I would have only bought the studio display

01:57:21   and I kind of am happy it ended up the way it did.

01:57:26   I am so happy with this massive canvas of screen space

01:57:29   that I have with the XDR,

01:57:31   that even though the price was very hard to swallow,

01:57:34   I actually really enjoy it.

01:57:36   But no, to answer the question,

01:57:38   if the Studio Display had been available

01:57:40   when I wanted to buy a monitor,

01:57:42   I would never have bought the XDR.

01:57:44   - Jon?

01:57:45   - Yeah, I would have bought the Studio Display, no question.

01:57:47   And I'm not as happy as Marco,

01:57:50   it turn out the way it did, but in hindsight, as I said on past shows, I have really come

01:57:57   to appreciate HDR when I do photo and video editing, given that so many of my photos come

01:58:02   off of iPhones and all of my video comes off of iPhones and they do use HDR and my monitor

01:58:07   can display it.

01:58:08   When at the time, if they had come out together, I wouldn't have known that.

01:58:11   I wouldn't have cared about HDR at all.

01:58:12   I would have been like, "Studio Display, no question."

01:58:14   Not even close.

01:58:16   In hindsight, I still would have made that choice, because come on, this thing is so

01:58:20   expensive it is not worth the extra size and you only get used to the size once you have

01:58:26   one so if you've never actually had an XDR you know you don't have to worry about that

01:58:30   but in hindsight I would be disappointed because I'd be like okay the studio display was the

01:58:36   right choice it's the thing I should have gotten but the two things I would be disappointed

01:58:40   about would be one it's not any bigger than the 5K iMac so it doesn't feel like a big

01:58:44   upgrade in terms of screen size and two I know that HDR exists and then when the MacBook

01:58:49   pros came out and they had HDR, it would make me feel even worse because I'm like, "Oh,

01:58:52   the laptops have it. The laptops have it, but my "big desktop screen" doesn't have it."

01:58:58   That would make me disappointed, right? But the question is, what would you have done

01:59:01   if they come out at the same time? Studio display, no question. No one should mind the

01:59:07   XDR. It's too much money. Yeah, it's ridiculous.

01:59:12   Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Sanity, and Linode. And thanks to our members

01:59:16   who support us directly, you can join atps.fm/join. Don't forget that merch discount if you join,

01:59:22   this is a good time to do it. Thank you everybody and we will talk to you next week.

01:59:29   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:59:33   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:59:36   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:59:39   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:59:44   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:59:47   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:59:50   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:59:55   If you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:00:04   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:00:08   Auntie Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C

02:00:13   U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

02:00:16   It's accidental (it's accidental)

02:00:19   They didn't mean to accidental (accidental)

02:00:24   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

02:00:27   - I talked to my Sonos Roam when I got it right.

02:00:32   - Did you?

02:00:33   - Wait, you have a Sonos Roam?

02:00:34   - Yeah.

02:00:35   - You spent $400 on a portable speaker?

02:00:39   - I did not.

02:00:39   - Oh, you got a discount for this right?

02:00:42   - I got a 50% discount, baby.

02:00:44   I spent $200 on a portable speaker that's waterproof

02:00:47   and I bring into the shower with me and I like it.

02:00:49   - You bring us the shower?

02:00:50   - Jesus.

02:00:51   - Yeah, I'm literally bringing it, it's waterproof.

02:00:53   It's huge and heavy.

02:00:55   - No, you're not thinking of the right,

02:00:56   am I thinking of the wrong product?

02:00:57   - Oh, the Roam, sorry, I was thinking of the Move.

02:00:59   Nevermind.

02:01:00   The Roam is much smaller.

02:01:01   The Roam is like a toddler own bar.

02:01:03   - Yeah, the same way you feel about the people

02:01:05   who took the defrost button off your Tesla thing,

02:01:07   I feel about the people who designed the physical interface

02:01:09   to the Sonos Roam.

02:01:10   Like as a speaker, it does what it's supposed to do.

02:01:12   - And it sounds really good, doesn't it?

02:01:14   - No. - The software is fine.

02:01:15   - No, it doesn't.

02:01:17   - Oh, I feel like I've heard one of these.

02:01:18   - It's small.

02:01:19   The Sonos Roam, if you ever had one of those

02:01:21   like $50 Bluetooth portables things, it's similar.

02:01:26   - No, it's better than that.

02:01:27   'Cause I replaced one of those $50 Bluetooth ones

02:01:29   that was in the realm is way better.

02:01:31   I'm just looking at the podcast, so I don't care.

02:01:33   But it's pretty good.

02:01:33   But boy, the physical interface to that thing,

02:01:36   I just do not know what people are thinking.

02:01:40   Like the one that drives me the most crazy is the,

02:01:43   I mean, I don't know what you wanna call it,

02:01:45   but there's a button, a physical button

02:01:46   that functions somewhat as a power button.

02:01:50   But as you notice, it's shaped like a Toblerone,

02:01:52   so it's triangular in cross section, right?

02:01:55   And it's a long, thin button that is on the ridge

02:01:58   of one of the triangular edges.

02:01:59   So right away, it's kind of a pain to press.

02:02:01   It's actually kind of hard to press 'cause it's skinny

02:02:03   and you have to press it directly, you know,

02:02:05   'cause if you press it in a little bit of angle,

02:02:06   you're gonna rotate the little triangle in your thing.

02:02:08   And why would you care about how hard it is to press?

02:02:11   Because to turn it off, you have to hold that button

02:02:12   for like 10 seconds.

02:02:14   You hold it and it makes one tone,

02:02:17   then it makes a second tone,

02:02:18   and then it makes a third tone,

02:02:19   and I accelerated that to be like 3x,

02:02:21   even without smart speed.

02:02:23   I swear it's like five seconds between.

02:02:25   And if you do not keep holding it between there,

02:02:27   oh, you failed the sequence,

02:02:28   and then it like starts over.

02:02:30   And it's surprising that you have to press it really hard,

02:02:32   and it can't wiggle in your hand,

02:02:33   'cause if it wiggles a little bit in your hand,

02:02:34   'cause it's triangular,

02:02:36   it's like, for God's sake, people, a power button.

02:02:38   I was gonna say that when you said

02:02:39   you had to unplug your home pod,

02:02:40   I'm like, gee, why didn't you just turn

02:02:41   the power on and off?

02:02:42   Oh, because there's no power button.

02:02:44   Just like there's no power button

02:02:45   on the Apple Studio Display,

02:02:46   there's no power button on the $5,000 XDR.

02:02:48   But yeah, no, the power button,

02:02:51   it's just a crime against humanity.

02:02:53   And why do I have to turn off one?

02:02:54   I just let it go to sleep.

02:02:56   'Cause the functionality that's supposed to make it sleep

02:02:58   if you don't use it, doesn't work very well.

02:03:00   And very often if you don't actually turn it

02:03:03   all the way off when you come back to it,

02:03:04   the battery will be dead.

02:03:05   Because it didn't go to sleep

02:03:07   like the setting said it was supposed to.

02:03:09   And then the buttons on the other end,

02:03:11   it's like, we're gonna have buttons on the end

02:03:13   and they're gonna be rubberized 'cause it's waterproof.

02:03:14   And the buttons are like volume up, volume down,

02:03:16   play/pause but instead of having buttons it is a flat piece of rubber with the

02:03:20   tiniest little plus and minus sort of bulging ever so slightly like that

02:03:25   they're so small like the head of a pin and the thickness of the rubber that's

02:03:30   poking up is so small like you can't see them and you can kind of try to feel for

02:03:34   them but both ends of the thing are rubberized so angry I want someone from

02:03:38   like Fisher-Price or OXO to say "Just make buttons!" a power button and then

02:03:44   and buttons that you can press to do the things,

02:03:46   not the world's most subtle little like

02:03:49   microscopic nano texture designs

02:03:52   to indicate where you might have to press hard

02:03:55   down into the rubber thing to make it go,

02:03:57   you know, sound up or sound down or play pause.

02:04:00   So I don't understand how they fumbled it that badly

02:04:03   on this type of product.

02:04:04   And it's got a USB-C thing to charge, which is fine.

02:04:06   Although even the USB-C one,

02:04:07   when you put it down to charge it,

02:04:09   the USB-C plug does not come out of the device horizontally.

02:04:13   It either goes vertically out, which looks like the harpoon mouse, or it comes down at

02:04:17   an angle so you better hope your connector is not too long.

02:04:20   Otherwise the thing is going to be resting on the wire like your kids are using it or

02:04:22   something.

02:04:24   With the power button, every time I'm sitting there holding the other than that power button

02:04:29   I feel like I'm using one of those 80s things for grip strength.

02:04:32   You're increasing your grip strength as I wait and listen.

02:04:36   And by the way, sometimes it gets angry because it's doing something else and it doesn't play

02:04:38   the right tones and you have to start over again because you lost the power off game.

02:04:42   Every time I just think about it, computers used to have a button that you would flip

02:04:45   and it would turn the power off.

02:04:46   And how great that was.

02:04:47   [BEEPING]