478: No Bum Cores


00:00:00   We're watching Severance, have you seen Severance?

00:00:02   - No, no, shh.

00:00:03   - I'm not gonna tell you anything about it

00:00:04   except that it's really good

00:00:06   and I strongly suggest that season one just ended.

00:00:09   It's been renewed for a second season.

00:00:11   Highly, it starts out weird

00:00:14   and you're gonna think, what am I watching?

00:00:16   It's very, very strange.

00:00:17   Where's the square footage going?

00:00:19   But trust me, it's worth watching this show.

00:00:22   It's very, very good.

00:00:23   I'm actually, we've recently just finished the dropout too,

00:00:26   the one about Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos

00:00:28   and we're trying to watch the WeWork one,

00:00:31   but I don't know, are you able to watch shows

00:00:35   about Silicon Valley startups and enjoy them?

00:00:37   - I was gonna say you're making some interesting choices.

00:00:39   Of all the things you can pick, Severance,

00:00:41   good, thumbs up, nice selection.

00:00:43   WeWork and the Theranos one,

00:00:45   you gonna watch the Uber one next?

00:00:46   That would not be on my list.

00:00:48   - So the Theranos one I was happy to get through

00:00:51   because first of all it was very well done.

00:00:53   I made a safe read, it was amazing in it.

00:00:55   And I wasn't really following the story

00:00:58   when it was happening in real life.

00:00:59   So it was mostly new to me, or at least I knew

00:01:01   like the high level overview,

00:01:02   but didn't really know the details.

00:01:04   So that was nice, and it was just a very well done show.

00:01:07   But the parts that are more about glorifying

00:01:11   Silicon Valley culture, which so far that we work on

00:01:13   definitely is in that area, and partly,

00:01:15   I mean it's just a different company, different show,

00:01:17   but I find that kind of show hard to get through as a nerd.

00:01:21   Like my favorite show of this type is Silicon Valley,

00:01:24   because it just did not even try to take our world

00:01:27   seriously and I know so many people in our world did not think it was funny

00:01:31   that kind of hit too close to home to them and I'm I love that show so much

00:01:35   because the world of our startup culture and everything is ridiculous and it is

00:01:39   totally stupid and there's so much about it that is easily made fun of because

00:01:43   it's so ridiculous and stupid but I have a hard time watching shows that glorify

00:01:49   it non sarcastically like the we work with so far well the other shows are

00:01:53   based on real people and true stories I mean the Silicon Valley is just you know

00:01:57   it's a comedy, a satire, right? And so there's lots of fictionalized things that have obvious

00:02:01   analogs like what they're making fun of, but it's not trying to be a dramatized version of real

00:02:08   events at all. And I feel like that's really hard to do because we've got the whole plumber problem

00:02:12   is because we know a lot about the business and the companies that are involved, and sometimes

00:02:17   some of the people that are involved. So if you try to make a TV show out of that, the TV show

00:02:21   ends up, you know, trying to dumb things down, or there's a bunch of things that they gloss over

00:02:25   that we know the intricacies of and just takes you out of it. Whereas Silicon Valley, you

00:02:30   know, all it's trying to do is make you laugh. And I feel like knowledge of Silicon Valley

00:02:33   makes that show more funny, not less. There were a couple of examples that I can

00:02:37   think of, of movies that I've seen that are, you know, at least adjacent to our world that

00:02:43   I thought were enjoyable, maybe not good, but enjoyable. Um, the, what was the one,

00:02:48   the Pirates of Silicon Valley or something like that? That wasn't a fiction though. That

00:02:51   It was like a documentary thing.

00:02:54   - No, no, no, no.

00:02:55   I'm thinking of the one with Noah Wylie.

00:02:56   - Oh yeah, Noah Wylie, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:58   - That one I enjoyed.

00:03:01   What was the one with Tim Robbins and Ryan Filipe,

00:03:04   Filipe, whatever his name is.

00:03:06   It was super campy and super silly.

00:03:09   He was like, Tim Robbins was playing

00:03:11   like a Gates sort of character.

00:03:12   - The Circle?

00:03:14   - No, no, shoot.

00:03:15   I don't have to look it up.

00:03:16   But there was one, it was years ago now, 'cause I'm old.

00:03:20   That one was enjoyable, if dumb.

00:03:22   Let's see, oh, I liked The Social Network a lot, actually.

00:03:27   I thought that, oh, Antitrust, thank you, bleh, 11.

00:03:30   - The Social Network, I mean,

00:03:32   The Social Network was a good movie,

00:03:34   but the more you know about Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg,

00:03:37   the more there's sort of a dissonance

00:03:39   with the stuff that's on the screen.

00:03:41   - Well, sure, but--

00:03:42   - It's hard to make movies about real people,

00:03:44   especially when they're currently live.

00:03:47   "Tram for the Nerds" was a documentary.

00:03:48   - That's it, that's what I'm thinking of.

00:03:49   - Yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:03:51   - Part of Silicon Valley was Noah Wylie,

00:03:53   there was the Steve Jobs one with Fassbender.

00:03:55   - That one I hated, if I remember right.

00:03:57   I absolutely hated that one.

00:03:58   - Yeah, I just don't watch the fictionalized ones,

00:04:00   'cause I know I'm not gonna like 'em.

00:04:01   - They're usually about some company,

00:04:03   like the Facebook ones.

00:04:04   It would be easier to like the Facebook ones

00:04:08   if I liked Facebook.

00:04:09   Instead, I'm watching these shows,

00:04:12   and it's like I hate all of the people in the show.

00:04:14   Every single guy, I hate every character.

00:04:16   In the show and in real life, I just hate all these people.

00:04:19   Makes it hard to enjoy

00:04:21   No finger traps for you

00:04:23   Nice. Oh, it's such a good show. Oh my god

00:04:26   Marco just wanted to tell people about severance TV show that he is watching not five years after the rest of the world

00:04:32   You know, what really sucks though?

00:04:33   Is that now they just finished season one and they just picked it up for season two

00:04:36   Which means they haven't made season two yet, which means I have to wait like a year. Oh, yeah

00:04:40   Just waited five years and spent five years complaining about everyone telling you about severance

00:04:47   Why is everyone telling me about Severance?

00:04:48   I'm sick of hearing about Severance.

00:04:50   Then you'd finally watch it after five years

00:04:51   and then you wouldn't have this problem.

00:04:52   It worked for me with Hamilton.

00:04:54   (laughing)

00:04:55   - Still haven't seen that.

00:04:56   - Still waiting for the Hamilton sequel, yeah.

00:04:58   - It was, I'll tell you what though, it's weird.

00:04:59   Like, you know, we've been watching a lot of current shows

00:05:01   and we've basically, we've ran into old shows.

00:05:04   And so we've been watching current ones.

00:05:05   - You have not run out of old shows.

00:05:07   - Seriously. - For the record.

00:05:08   - We'll leave that there.

00:05:09   But it's so weird now going back to having to wait

00:05:14   like a week for the next episode to come out.

00:05:16   'cause we've largely not done that for years,

00:05:20   for almost anything we watched.

00:05:21   - Did you watch "Severance" in real time,

00:05:22   or did you just watch it once it was all out?

00:05:24   - We watched it, I think, the first four or five

00:05:27   in a batch, 'cause we jumped in halfway through,

00:05:30   and then we hit the end, and we're like, "Oh no,

00:05:32   "we have to wait 'til next week, what?"

00:05:34   And then it's just been excruciating.

00:05:37   - Well, what did you do for "Ted Lasso,"

00:05:38   you didn't watch that live?

00:05:39   - So season one we blew right through,

00:05:41   and then season two we had to do it live.

00:05:43   And it feels like going back in time

00:05:46   to a long lost pain of our youth.

00:05:49   Like, what do you mean I can't watch everything

00:05:51   I want all the time, like, whenever I feel like it?

00:05:54   How is that, what do you mean?

00:05:55   How is this not available?

00:05:57   - So tangential to that, this pre-show's never gonna end.

00:06:00   You've ruined everything.

00:06:00   So tangential to that. - You're welcome.

00:06:03   - We have occasionally gone and eaten

00:06:05   at like restaurant patios over the last few months.

00:06:09   The kids have completely forgotten how restaurants work,

00:06:12   most especially that once you order you have to cook the food. Like it isn't that we've

00:06:19   already ordered and we just grab it and go. You have to sit there and entertain yourself

00:06:23   and let the people cook the food. And they do not understand this concept at all. And

00:06:29   so we are trying to break them back into restaurants but they're having a hard time. So it's funny

00:06:35   how things are coming. Everything old is new again. And for us it's restaurants.

00:06:41   (laughs)

00:06:43   Hooray, it is t-shirt time, everybody.

00:06:47   T-shirts are back and dare I say, better than ever.

00:06:51   So here's the thing, you know, when you work with people

00:06:54   that you genuinely deeply enjoy and respect,

00:06:58   the flip side of that coin is that

00:07:00   sometimes they really tick you off.

00:07:02   Marco has now twice come up with my two,

00:07:05   well, he's done it in two different occasions,

00:07:07   come up with my favorite ATP merchandise jokes.

00:07:11   The first one, which Jon will probably tell me

00:07:13   was actually his idea, but my recollection is

00:07:15   it was Marco's idea, was the watch edition shirt,

00:07:20   like the three different styles.

00:07:21   It was sports, what was the middle one?

00:07:23   - Just like no name on the middle,

00:07:25   sport on the bottom and then the edition at the top.

00:07:27   - Right.

00:07:28   - That happened too long ago for me to remember

00:07:29   whose idea it was.

00:07:31   - Yeah, I honestly don't remember.

00:07:32   - I'm pretty sure it was Marco.

00:07:34   I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure.

00:07:35   Normally I am annoyingly accurate about remembering

00:07:38   which things I should get credit for,

00:07:40   but in this case I actually don't remember.

00:07:41   - Yeah, that was a really long time ago.

00:07:43   I don't even know if our Slack scroll back goes that far.

00:07:46   - Well, either way, that one was one

00:07:48   of my top two favorites.

00:07:50   The other is, actually I should,

00:07:53   honestly I should attribute Jon for this

00:07:54   'cause it was a group effort,

00:07:55   but it was Marco's initial idea.

00:07:57   - That was Marco's idea.

00:07:58   - Yeah, and then Jon perfected it.

00:08:00   - The Slack t-shirt didn't get you,

00:08:01   didn't make your list?

00:08:02   - No, no.

00:08:03   It was good, it was very good.

00:08:04   - We know that was your idea, it was good.

00:08:05   (laughing)

00:08:07   - So the store is up and you can buy merchandise right now

00:08:12   through the 30th of April.

00:08:15   Saturday, the 30th of April is the last time

00:08:17   you can get your shirts and I'll do my normal spiel

00:08:19   about that in a second, but let's look at the merchandise.

00:08:22   So we've got the M1 Ultra shirt,

00:08:23   which is exactly what you expect.

00:08:24   It's the M1 colorful logo with Ultra

00:08:27   with a yellow background below it.

00:08:28   Very well done, very nice.

00:08:29   The back, I don't even know what to say.

00:08:33   I think this shirt might have caused Syracuse to quit.

00:08:36   Because doing this must have been a nightmare.

00:08:39   I know you're gonna say, "Oh, just copy paste it."

00:08:40   No, I'm telling you, it must have been a nightmare to do.

00:08:42   - No copy pasting.

00:08:43   It was all done by hand, lovingly done by hand.

00:08:45   Every line drawn with the line tool or the rectangle tool.

00:08:49   - Yep, so this is the shirt that broke Syracuse's back.

00:08:53   And for that, I will always be thankful for it.

00:08:54   However, where Marco comes in

00:08:56   is the M1 Ultra Interposer shirt.

00:09:00   So picture in your mind's eye.

00:09:02   You've got the six colors M1 logo.

00:09:05   Below that, there is a very wide pill

00:09:10   that is a yellow background, but instead of saying ultra,

00:09:14   on the left-hand side, it says the word max.

00:09:17   Then there's a crude illustration of an interposer.

00:09:21   And on the right-hand side, it says the word max,

00:09:24   but upside down, because that's what the M1 Ultra is.

00:09:28   It's two M1 maxes, one upside down.

00:09:30   I love this so much.

00:09:33   I cannot even tell you, I'm dead serious.

00:09:35   I love this shirt so much.

00:09:36   This might eclipse the different watch editions, whatever,

00:09:40   the different watch styles as my favorite merchandise gag

00:09:43   that we've ever done.

00:09:44   I love this so much. - This is probably

00:09:45   the nerdiest one because the number of,

00:09:48   first of all, the number of people

00:09:49   who are gonna recognize an ATP shirt

00:09:51   or know what the heck M1 is,

00:09:52   it's already vanishingly small.

00:09:53   We all know that, right?

00:09:55   People who live in your house with you

00:09:56   when you get the shirt, they'll be like,

00:09:57   "What the hell is this?"

00:09:58   Maybe they'll guess BMW, but no one's gonna know what it's about.

00:10:01   But then within that tiny circle, to get this joke, you also have to know how the M1 Ultra

00:10:06   is constructed with two Maxes.

00:10:08   They're basically rotated.

00:10:10   If you take an M1 Max die and then rotate it around so it touches it, that's how the

00:10:16   Ultra is formed.

00:10:17   And so we formed the Ultra badge with two Maxes.

00:10:20   On the shirt it looks like one Upset M1.

00:10:23   Almost nobody is going to get that.

00:10:25   I bet in the ATP audience, most of you listening to me don't understand what I'm talking about

00:10:29   and also don't remember how the M1 Ultra is constructed and so even if I was explaining

00:10:34   it better you still wouldn't get it.

00:10:36   Very narrow interest and I will say because it's narrow interest, this is probably the

00:10:40   only time we're going to sell this shirt.

00:10:42   We've been doing like an on-demand thing like when the store is up you can get these on-demand

00:10:45   shirts for all the people who watch the YouTube videos so they don't have to get illegal pirated

00:10:50   shirts or whatever.

00:10:52   We're probably going to put the M1 Ultra up in the on-demand shirt but this one won't

00:10:55   So if you want this inside-est of inside joke shirt,

00:11:00   this is probably the only time you're ever going

00:11:03   to be able to get it.

00:11:04   So M1 Ultra Interposer shirt, check it out.

00:11:06   - When I suggested this, I was joking.

00:11:09   Like I made a quick little crappy Photoshop mockup

00:11:11   and I'm like, hey, shouldn't it be like this?

00:11:13   But I do not think anybody will actually buy this shirt.

00:11:17   I literally think there will be zero sales of it.

00:11:20   - I can guarantee you I will be one of them.

00:11:22   - Okay, then there will be two sales.

00:11:25   If any of you out there actually want this,

00:11:27   prove me wrong, that's great.

00:11:28   I totally understand if you'd rather buy

00:11:31   one of the other designs. (laughs)

00:11:34   But I'd be shocked if anybody buys this.

00:11:37   - We've already sold two of them.

00:11:39   - Yeah, you and Casey.

00:11:40   - I didn't buy mine yet.

00:11:41   - No, me neither.

00:11:41   - All right, well.

00:11:42   - I was waiting till the end and almost forget to buy it.

00:11:44   And by the way, just the final thing on these shirts,

00:11:45   these two shirts, as we've discussed before,

00:11:48   all the M1 shirts,

00:11:50   these are like the most expensive shirts we've ever made

00:11:52   because they have so many colors on them.

00:11:54   every single color is a sucker printing pass that's why the badges always match

00:11:57   one of the colors in the stripes so we don't have to do yet another printing

00:12:00   pass because every printing pass costs more money

00:12:02   and by the way there's a printing pass on the back as well so we apologize for

00:12:05   the cost of these shirts they are very expensive

00:12:07   i will say that as we said in the past with the on-demand shirts

00:12:10   the on-demand shirts use a different process for printing that's why they're

00:12:14   cheaper they do not look as good as these shirts

00:12:16   these are the good looking ones so i know they're horrendously expensive

00:12:19   we apologize for that it costs us a lot to make them because of all the

00:12:22   different colors and everything. I was gonna say this will be the end of the M1 shirts,

00:12:26   but we might do M2 shirts. I don't know. We don't know what we're gonna do. But anyway,

00:12:29   I just want to put that out there. And that brings us to the next shirt, which is, so

00:12:33   you don't want to pay all that money for the 17 printing passes that it takes to make these

00:12:37   shirts. We do have an M1 Ultra in monochrome. We do not have the Max Max joke in monochrome.

00:12:44   If you want the obscure joke, you gotta pay through the nose for it.

00:12:47   Just like if you want an actual M1 Ultra.

00:12:50   - Yeah, right, right.

00:12:50   - And all our cores are enabled,

00:12:52   no bump cores in our shirt.

00:12:53   (laughing)

00:12:55   And the good thing about the monochrome shirts though

00:12:58   is that the M1 Ultra and the M1 Ultra Interposer shirts

00:13:01   just come in black, but the monochrome version

00:13:04   comes in all sorts of colors.

00:13:05   So if you want a colorful shirt, go for the monochrome one.

00:13:08   It's cheaper 'cause it's just one printing pass

00:13:09   on each side, you can get it in blue, purple, pink,

00:13:12   lavender, green, all sorts of colors, it's very nice.

00:13:17   - And then we have the classic ATP logo shirt,

00:13:19   And then we have brought back the ATP hoodie,

00:13:21   which is absolutely a delightful hoodie.

00:13:24   I cannot recommend it enough.

00:13:25   A very, very nice hoodie.

00:13:27   And then by popular demand, we have the ATP pint glass

00:13:32   and a ever so slightly tweaked ATP mug.

00:13:36   To be completely honest with you,

00:13:37   we would have left the mug alone, but we couldn't

00:13:39   because they're not available right now.

00:13:41   #supplychain.

00:13:42   So the only difference on this ATP mug

00:13:44   is that the interior, rather than being red,

00:13:46   is like a gray, is that right?

00:13:48   - It's grayish blue almost, like a slate.

00:13:50   - I mean, we didn't do this on purpose.

00:13:52   We would've just got red if we could've.

00:13:53   We couldn't get either of these, by the way,

00:13:54   during the last sale, but they just weren't available,

00:13:56   period, they're finally available now,

00:13:57   but we couldn't get red.

00:13:58   But the way I would rationalize it,

00:14:00   now that we are forced to get gray

00:14:02   because red is not available,

00:14:03   if you thought the interior of the ATP mug was too garish,

00:14:06   or you didn't like the color it made your beverage look

00:14:08   'cause it was red and everything, which I can relate to,

00:14:10   and you want something that's more neutral, this is it.

00:14:13   Black outside, gray inside,

00:14:15   and then it makes the rainbow logo pop

00:14:16   because it is the only splash of color on the thing.

00:14:18   I still think it looks pretty good,

00:14:19   but if and when we can get red back, we will do so.

00:14:22   - Also to answer Melbo's question in the chat,

00:14:25   no pins this year?

00:14:26   Yes, Melbo, no pins this year,

00:14:28   because it took us 30 seconds to sell the first batch of pins

00:14:30   and 30 years to sell the second batch of pins.

00:14:32   So we're never bringing pins back.

00:14:34   - That may be true of the pint glasses and the mugs too,

00:14:36   'cause they're also the type of thing

00:14:38   where we have to guess how many we're gonna sell

00:14:39   and then we buy them upfront.

00:14:41   So I really hope we're not selling these mugs

00:14:43   and pint glasses for the next five years,

00:14:45   but who knows, it could happen.

00:14:46   So we'll see, it's the danger of guessing

00:14:49   how much people are gonna want things.

00:14:50   - Turns out supply chains are hard.

00:14:52   - Yeah, at the very least,

00:14:53   my wife wants a bunch of pint glasses,

00:14:54   'cause now these are her favorite glasses in the house.

00:14:56   I don't want them because they're taking over the cabinet.

00:14:58   Like they're so much wider on the top

00:15:00   than I have my favorite glasses

00:15:02   that are like these cheap ones from,

00:15:03   what are they from Crate and Barrel or something,

00:15:05   that I like, and they're just cylinders.

00:15:07   But these are like, you know, it's a pint glass,

00:15:09   so it's wider at the top than it is at the bottom,

00:15:10   and we store them upside down.

00:15:12   So these take up more room,

00:15:13   and they're slowly like overpopulating my kitchen cabinets

00:15:16   and kicking out my glasses.

00:15:17   - John, take your own advice, alternate.

00:15:21   You don't store them all upside down.

00:15:23   - That's a deep cut, that's a deep cut.

00:15:25   - You can't alternate, no that's not good.

00:15:27   - You see so much more space that way with, you know.

00:15:30   - There's so much crap filtering out of the air in my house,

00:15:32   I don't want that settling in the glasses.

00:15:34   - Inside the cabinets?

00:15:36   - Yes, it's everywhere.

00:15:37   - Oh my gosh, anyway.

00:15:38   All right, so we've got the pint glasses,

00:15:40   those are dishwasher safe

00:15:42   because the logo is etched, it's not painted, it's etched.

00:15:45   And then the ATP mug, no, not dishwasher safe.

00:15:48   You should treat this with care, come now.

00:15:50   And I believe it's a 14 ounce capacity on that,

00:15:53   which hopefully is enough for whatever liquid

00:15:55   you're putting in it.

00:15:56   So to recap, the M1 Ultra shirt with a yellow ultra pill

00:16:01   underneath the M1 logo, the colorful M1 logo,

00:16:04   the M1 Ultra Interposer shirt,

00:16:06   probably my favorite ATP joke shirt of all time.

00:16:09   Although I was reminded in the chat

00:16:11   that I do take credit for the wheels on the Mac Pro shirt

00:16:14   being a little more expensive.

00:16:15   I will take credit for that.

00:16:16   Still not on my list of my favorites,

00:16:18   but a close runner up, or honorable mention,

00:16:20   excuse me, Marco.

00:16:22   Anyway, M1 Ultra Interposer shirt with the Max Max on it.

00:16:25   Those are available in black only

00:16:27   in various sizes and whatnots.

00:16:29   Then the M1 Ultra shirt in monochrome,

00:16:31   which is a little bit more affordable.

00:16:33   That's in a variety of t-shirt colors,

00:16:35   the ATP logo shirt, the ATP hoodie,

00:16:36   the ATP pint glass, ATP mug,

00:16:38   All of this available until Saturday, April 30th.

00:16:42   Now, here's where I remind you of a couple things.

00:16:44   First of all, if you are an ATP member,

00:16:47   which you can do by, which you can join if you want to,

00:16:50   by going to ATP.fm/join.

00:16:52   If you're an ATP member, you will get a coupon code for you

00:16:56   and you can enter it at Cotton Bureau and save,

00:16:58   what is it, 15%, do I have that right?

00:17:00   15% off. - Yep.

00:17:01   - And if you spend, if you buy probably one

00:17:05   or at most two pieces of merchandise,

00:17:07   You've already basically paid for the first month of membership.

00:17:10   So definitely check that out at ATP.fm/join.

00:17:14   Secondly, if you're driving, if you're walking, if you're doing stuff,

00:17:19   you're doing the dishes, if you're doing something right now where you just can't

00:17:22   place the order, do Casey a favor.

00:17:25   Stop what you're doing.

00:17:26   Pull over, pull to the side of the sidewalk.

00:17:29   Do what you can put the dishes down for just a moment.

00:17:32   go to ATP.fm/store and order now.

00:17:35   Because every time, every time I get,

00:17:39   oh, did I miss it?

00:17:41   Yes, you missed it.

00:17:43   Order now, ATP.fm/store.

00:17:46   - Some very enthusiastic people in the chat

00:17:48   said they forgot to use their discount code.

00:17:50   Cotton Bureau's really good about that.

00:17:51   If you just email them and say,

00:17:53   hey, I made an order and I forgot to use my discount code,

00:17:55   and then just send them the discount code

00:17:56   you would have used, they'll give you the credit for it.

00:17:58   I know it's a hassle to do back and forth in the email,

00:18:00   but they will give you the credit for it.

00:18:01   So yes, if you're an ATB member,

00:18:03   don't forget to use your code.

00:18:04   Just go to atb.fm/store.

00:18:06   There's a link to your member page where you'll,

00:18:08   you know, the paragraph attacks at the top

00:18:10   tells you what the deal is and links you to it

00:18:12   so you can get your code and paste it

00:18:13   in the promo code field when you're checking out

00:18:15   and yada yada.

00:18:16   So yeah, and then the same picture we made last year,

00:18:19   I like how Casey was saying,

00:18:20   this is a perfect time for you to take advantage of this.

00:18:23   Buy a membership, buy a bunch of merch,

00:18:26   and then you can cancel your membership.

00:18:28   - And then nothing, and then nothing, John.

00:18:28   - And then forget to cancel your membership.

00:18:30   - We're gonna walk away.

00:18:31   - Yeah, I mean, we'll see.

00:18:32   So last year, finally, I have to say the last sale,

00:18:34   not last year, I guess it was last year,

00:18:36   the last sale we did, people finally took my advice.

00:18:38   We had this pretty substantial bump in membership

00:18:41   and then most of it went away after the sale was over.

00:18:44   So that's good.

00:18:44   You're using it the way it's intended.

00:18:49   You might as well just get the discount.

00:18:50   But the second thing I'll say about that,

00:18:52   and this is a special for this year,

00:18:54   Khan Bureau told us that the prices

00:18:55   on all of our stuff is going up, right?

00:18:57   So the cost to us, ATP, on all these products

00:19:00   has increased, for this sale, we have not passed

00:19:03   any of that cost on to you, unlike Apple.

00:19:05   (laughing)

00:19:06   So all the prices are the same as they were before.

00:19:09   Like, you know, the ATP shirt is the same as before,

00:19:11   or the M1 Ultra shirt's the same as the M1 Pro

00:19:13   and the MAC shirts, you know, all our prices are the same,

00:19:16   but you should know that our costs for each one of these

00:19:19   is more than it used to be.

00:19:21   And so I will say what I've said in many past things.

00:19:24   Buy a shirt or a mug or a pint glass or whatever,

00:19:27   If you want that item, if instead you're like,

00:19:30   I wanna support ATP, and you think,

00:19:33   oh, if I buy a $35 t-shirt, doesn't that support ATP?

00:19:38   Buying a membership for $8 supports us way more,

00:19:42   believe it or not, right?

00:19:43   Even just for one month, what I'm telling you is that

00:19:46   if you just wanna give us money, membership.

00:19:49   If you want a cool t-shirt, pint glass mug, hoodie,

00:19:52   these are cool products, you should get them,

00:19:54   but don't feel like you're, you know, like,

00:19:56   well I don't really want this stupid t-shirt

00:19:58   but I wanna support the show

00:19:59   and surely if I buy two expensive t-shirts

00:20:01   I'm supporting the show a super duper amount.

00:20:03   If you just wanna support the show, buy a membership.

00:20:06   And you get something for the membership too.

00:20:07   You get an ad free episode and you get the bootleg

00:20:09   and you know, you get stuff for the membership too

00:20:11   but if you just wanna support it, buy a membership.

00:20:13   If you want cool merch, buy cool merch.

00:20:16   And I will add that we have not changed prices

00:20:19   even though our costs are gone up.

00:20:20   I'm not sure how long we can sustain that.

00:20:22   We'll see how this sale goes.

00:20:24   If our margins are so slim that we barely make any money

00:20:27   on the sale, next sale, maybe some of the prices will go up.

00:20:30   So if you wanna get something,

00:20:31   even if you just wanna refresh your ATP shirt

00:20:33   'cause your old one's looking a little ratty or whatever,

00:20:35   buy now because prices may change during the next sale.

00:20:38   That is another thing that Apple won't tell you,

00:20:39   but that we will.

00:20:40   - Yeah, I wouldn't even say may change.

00:20:42   I think it's all but guaranteed

00:20:43   that the prices are gonna have to go up next time.

00:20:45   - Unless the supply chain changes

00:20:46   and all of a sudden our costs go down, who knows?

00:20:48   - When does that ever work in our favor?

00:20:51   When does anyone say due to supply chain efficiencies,

00:20:53   We're now lowering our prices.

00:20:54   It never happens.

00:20:55   - It happens all the time.

00:20:56   Apple just never passes the savings onto us.

00:20:57   They just keep selling the same, you know,

00:20:59   16 gig RAM upgrade for $600 for five years.

00:21:02   (laughing)

00:21:03   - Exactly.

00:21:04   - All right, we should move on, but Marco, 16,

00:21:07   16 sold, Marco, of the Max Max shirt.

00:21:09   16, baby.

00:21:10   - What we should really not be saying is like,

00:21:12   I don't think anyone's gonna buy it.

00:21:13   What we should really say is the first person

00:21:15   to give us a legit story of someone noticing the shirt

00:21:18   and understanding it in public.

00:21:20   I'm gonna say noticing the shirt and understanding it

00:21:22   who's not an ATP listener, that's gonna be miraculous.

00:21:26   That's never gonna happen.

00:21:27   - I don't think, even if you allow it to be a listener,

00:21:30   it's never gonna happen.

00:21:32   - And the best thing about this nerd shirt is,

00:21:34   if someone does interrogate you about it,

00:21:36   then you are kind of obliged to explain it to them,

00:21:39   and there's no way to explain that

00:21:41   without making you look like a giant nerd.

00:21:44   - I'm just imagining the look on the other person's face

00:21:46   as their eyes glaze over and they're like, oh no,

00:21:49   why did I ask for more information about this?

00:21:51   - I feel like you could sheepishly explain it to be like,

00:21:54   I know this is boring, but you did ask, so I'll explain it.

00:21:56   Or you could enthusiastically explain it,

00:21:58   in which case they'd be like,

00:21:59   what's wrong with this person?

00:22:00   (laughing)

00:22:02   - But I mean, in all fairness,

00:22:03   I think certainly the three of us,

00:22:05   and probably most of our listeners,

00:22:06   have seen that look before.

00:22:08   - Yes. - Yep.

00:22:08   - Exactly.

00:22:09   That's why I love this shirt,

00:22:11   because it's the type of thing,

00:22:12   it's like when you wear a shirt from an obscure band

00:22:14   that you know nobody's heard of,

00:22:15   just as to how cool you are,

00:22:16   because you've heard of the obscure band,

00:22:17   only the uncool version of that.

00:22:19   (laughing)

00:22:20   Really, really sound it while they're done. All right, we got to do some follow up and

00:22:24   I would like to start with the most important and also tragic follow up. It breaks my heart.

00:22:31   It breaks my heart. We've gotten news via Ari Badgers that original gravity Marco and I's

00:22:39   beloved beer/sausage place in San Jose. One of two. Why is it not my beloved place? I've eaten

00:22:44   there plenty of times. Is it one of your beloved places, John? I mean, it's like one of the only

00:22:48   only places I've eaten so yeah I guess so it's one of the only tower tolerable

00:22:51   places that we of the two places in San Jose that I can think of that the three

00:22:55   of us approve of this is one of them except it's not the way it used to be so

00:23:01   re writes us writes to us if you're coming to San Jose just because of

00:23:06   original gravity please don't they don't have any sausages anymore and have

00:23:10   turned into a sit-down overpriced burger place just like any other boring place

00:23:13   in South Bay so the beer and sausage place is now the beer and burger place

00:23:18   and is apparently not as good and that's that's very sad. I think I got a grilled cheese there once too

00:23:22   Didn't they just have grilled cheese?

00:23:24   They had yeah, they had a they had a like, you know

00:23:25   Ten or fifteen different things on the menu if it was like greasy and bad for you

00:23:28   They had it. Yeah, that's true. And now they just have burger which is greasy and bad for you

00:23:32   It's just one thing

00:23:32   Yeah

00:23:33   and I'm not gonna lie if you look at their website and you have to click on the food tab big and then it just

00:23:37   Scrolls to the food section of the single serving page

00:23:40   The burgers do look pretty damn good and so did the french fries

00:23:44   But I love this sauce and they had like 10 or 15 different sausages and they were delightful and not no more

00:23:50   I mean in all fairness though

00:23:51   Like at least they still have all the beer and what made them good was not just the sausages but that they were I

00:23:58   Think the only place we found in our time in San Jose that actually had good service and consistent service

00:24:04   That's also true. And so as long as they have beer some kind of food and good service. They're still

00:24:11   Significantly, you know ahead of the pack there and they didn't just have good service for San Jose

00:24:15   They had nothing good service for anywhere like in particular if it's type of restaurant where you you order at a counter

00:24:21   And then you and then you just go sit anywhere you want someone comes and finds you and brings you your food

00:24:25   That never really works out that well except at this place

00:24:28   They would come and find you and bring your food in a timely manner. I don't know how they did it

00:24:32   Miracle of service where it's because most places where they have that even if they have a system they can't find you

00:24:37   But if they don't have a system, it's like you'll never know if you're ever gonna get your food

00:24:40   Yeah, I ate at another place in San Jose that you order at the counter, they give you a

00:24:45   number, you go sit down, and you'll be sitting there forever because they gave you a number

00:24:49   for no reason. They don't actually ever bring the food out to you. And you have to eventually

00:24:54   walk off the back of the counter and be like, "Hey, I'm just checking, you know, how's my

00:24:58   order going?" And they'll be like, "Oh, here it is."

00:25:01   Then why'd you give me the number? This means something everywhere else in the world, but

00:25:07   but not here.

00:25:08   I'm telling you, all of San Jose, it's the Truman Show.

00:25:11   They're all actors, no one knows how to do the job

00:25:12   until you ask them, they're like,

00:25:14   I don't know what to do, I guess I need to go figure out

00:25:17   how to do this.

00:25:18   Whew, except original gravity.

00:25:20   There, they seem to know what they're doing,

00:25:22   and so I hope this change doesn't ruin them,

00:25:24   'cause if I ever go back to San Jose,

00:25:26   which we'll get to later I guess,

00:25:27   if I ever go back to San Jose,

00:25:29   that's the first place I'm stopping.

00:25:31   - And since we'll get questions about it,

00:25:32   what is the name of the vegan place that we all like?

00:25:35   What do we know about it?

00:25:36   It's like right across the street,

00:25:37   it's like a vegan Indian place.

00:25:40   It's called Good Vibes or something,

00:25:41   it's like something like that.

00:25:43   - Good Karma, there it is.

00:25:44   - There it is, yeah, right.

00:25:45   - All right, all right, good deal.

00:25:46   - Yeah, that place is also very good.

00:25:48   We are sponsored this week by Mack Weldon.

00:25:52   This is my favorite brand of clothes

00:25:54   and it is by far the brand of clothing that I wear the most.

00:25:58   You know, we all wanna look our best.

00:26:00   Now it's springtime coming up,

00:26:01   you might wanna get some new spring essentials.

00:26:03   Mac Weldon makes the best essential clothing

00:26:07   and it's perfect for all seasons.

00:26:09   You know, going into the spring,

00:26:10   I'm gonna look at some of my t-shirts,

00:26:11   maybe get some new t-shirts,

00:26:13   maybe keep some long sleeves in the wardrobe there,

00:26:16   maybe get a nice new light jacket or hoodie

00:26:18   and Mac Weldon has all these things.

00:26:19   It's so great.

00:26:21   They even have the DeliWear system,

00:26:23   all their clothes work together,

00:26:25   so it's just a fantastic brand.

00:26:26   Let me tell you right now,

00:26:27   I'm wearing Mac Weldon underwear, you know,

00:26:28   look, I'll say it, I love their underwear.

00:26:30   I'm always wearing it,

00:26:31   that's 100% of my collection of underwear is there,

00:26:33   So I'm wearing that every single day.

00:26:34   I'm also wearing their boot socks right now,

00:26:36   their boot cut socks, these wonderful weave,

00:26:38   'cause it's a little bit cold today.

00:26:39   I got their silver t-shirt,

00:26:41   which is made from actual antimicrobial silver fibers

00:26:44   in the fabric blend.

00:26:45   And so it basically never stinks.

00:26:47   Like I wear these almost all the time.

00:26:49   Like I'm almost always wearing a Macbalden silver t-shirt.

00:26:51   Earlier today I worked out, I used the Ace sweatshorts.

00:26:54   I love the Ace line.

00:26:56   They have sweatpants, sweatshorts, it's just fantastic.

00:26:59   It's sweatshirts even.

00:27:00   Super soft, really premium feeling.

00:27:02   And I've had a lot of my Mac Weldon stuff for years now.

00:27:06   I started wearing their stuff maybe five years ago,

00:27:08   and I don't think I've ever had anything

00:27:09   of theirs wear out yet.

00:27:12   So it's really nicely made stuff.

00:27:15   It fits well, the fabrics are really nice, it looks good,

00:27:18   they have things that range from casual to workout wear

00:27:22   to semi-formal, even to formal,

00:27:24   and all sorts of pieces all across the whole line.

00:27:26   It's just wonderful.

00:27:27   Check out Mac Weldon for yourself.

00:27:29   Save 20% on your first order by visiting

00:27:31   mackweldon.com/atppod using promo code ATP pod.

00:27:36   Again, that's mackweldon.com/atppod,

00:27:40   promo code ATP pod for 20% off.

00:27:43   Find your perfect look for this spring.

00:27:45   Thank you so much to Mack Weldon for sponsoring our show.

00:27:48   (upbeat music)

00:27:51   - All right, so now that we've got that covered,

00:27:53   we need to go to Etymology Corner.

00:27:55   I feel like we should be on Fun Fact right now.

00:27:57   Matt Rigby writes, "As fans of arbitrary and obscure measurements, you may enjoy the additional

00:28:02   info that a decibel is in fact one tenth or a deci of a bell, with a bell being a measurement

00:28:07   for the loss of signal power over a one-mile stretch of 19-gauge telephone cable.

00:28:11   The measurement we use today to measure all kinds of things, including an idling max studio,

00:28:15   has its origins in the early telephone age of the late 19th century and is named after

00:28:19   Alexander Graham Bell."

00:28:20   I love these units of measurement that are sort of not based on physical properties of

00:28:25   matter but instead are sort of you know experimental measurements and this one is requires a mile

00:28:29   of wire for you like if you want to just you know reproduce the you know where does this

00:28:35   come from it like unlike the old you know before i think they've converted all the measurements

00:28:39   to physical properties like there used to be like the kilogram weight that would be

00:28:42   kept in this little vacuum chamber but it would be losing atoms over the years and so

00:28:46   the kilogram would be changing and people are upset right for this one like i do you

00:28:50   know i mean i'm sure it's probably physically based now someone will write in with more

00:28:53   I'll have to explain it, but the idea that to reproduce or accurately, if you had to

00:28:59   keep a round one, you had to keep a one mile stretch of 19 gauge telephone wire around

00:29:03   and then you'd have to stretch it out and then decide what temperature it has to be

00:29:06   and how long it has to be.

00:29:07   That temperature has to be consistent over the mile that you stretch it and under what

00:29:10   tension should it be under and should it be on the ground or not and then measure it.

00:29:14   It's and then now we're stuck with it I suppose, but I really do hope that a decibel is switched

00:29:20   to physics-based measurement, because it

00:29:22   seems like the most inconvenient one to reproduce.

00:29:26   By the way, real-time follow-up here,

00:29:28   the M1 Ultra Interposer shirt, I just

00:29:31   got the email from Cotton Bureau saying that it's

00:29:33   crossed the threshold to be printed.

00:29:35   Ah, there you go.

00:29:36   Some quick looking at the page indicates

00:29:38   that they've sold 17 of them, which

00:29:40   is outselling the other ones like four to one, at least.

00:29:44   Oh, see?

00:29:46   See?

00:29:47   When the normal people come there,

00:29:48   they'll get the normal shirts.

00:29:50   Yeah, I don't expect this ratio to continue.

00:29:53   It's just kind of funny.

00:29:54   People in the chat room are disproportionately

00:29:56   inclined to get the joke shirt.

00:29:59   That's fair.

00:30:00   All right, Carl Rosles writes, you

00:30:01   mentioned the upcoming iPhone 14 non-pro max,

00:30:04   saying that it gives quote unquote "normal" people

00:30:06   the option of a big phone.

00:30:08   Don't forget to pour one out for the iPhone 12 and 13 mini.

00:30:10   This is nice for people who want bigger phones,

00:30:12   but sad for those of us that like the small or maybe

00:30:14   reasonable sized phones.

00:30:15   Yeah, I forgot to mention that last time we were talking

00:30:18   about the phone lineup.

00:30:19   I know we talked about it in past shows,

00:30:20   but just to refresh everyone's memory,

00:30:21   the current dominant rumor is that there will be no Mini 14.

00:30:26   So if you like the Mini, get the 12 or 13 Mini,

00:30:29   and then just try to use it for as long as you can.

00:30:31   Maybe you'll bring back the Mini, maybe they won't,

00:30:33   but it doesn't look like it's in the cards for the 14.

00:30:36   - Yeah, it's a shame.

00:30:37   I see that I'm not helping here by having bought

00:30:40   the 12 Mini but then the 13 Pro,

00:30:42   so I'm not really helping the cause,

00:30:44   but I really did love that phone, the Mini phone,

00:30:47   and I wish that they would continue

00:30:51   to try to make really great small phones.

00:30:54   And we'll see if that ever becomes a thing again,

00:30:56   'cause it really does sound like this is not a thing.

00:30:59   And the rumors have been no more mini with the iOS 14,

00:31:02   or with the iPhone 14, they've been saying that

00:31:05   ever since like halfway through the 12 mini cycle.

00:31:09   So it seems like it just wasn't really selling well

00:31:11   from the start.

00:31:12   And we all kinda, we had our speculation for reasons,

00:31:16   Obviously people do love big phones.

00:31:17   Even when they say they want small phones,

00:31:18   they end up buying big phones a lot of the time.

00:31:21   But also the question of whether there's a small phone

00:31:24   market or whether there's a cheap phone market.

00:31:26   And then the distinction between the SE versus the Mini.

00:31:28   And also our theories about like, well, maybe with COVID,

00:31:32   people couldn't get into the Apple store

00:31:33   and actually see and feel these things.

00:31:35   And if they will have a chance to get in there

00:31:36   and see and feel it, maybe there'll be more swayed to it.

00:31:39   Well, now people have been able to go to Apple stores

00:31:41   for a while and it seems like it's still getting canned.

00:31:44   So that's unfortunate.

00:31:44   But we'll see, maybe in the future,

00:31:47   they'll try to make their phones smaller and lighter again.

00:31:49   I hope so, because the 13 Pro is an amazing phone,

00:31:53   but it's a big heavy brick in my pocket.

00:31:55   - I still think it's a mistake to get rid of the mini.

00:31:57   Like you said, whenever we talk about

00:31:59   diversifying product lines,

00:32:01   they can't all sell in equal amounts.

00:32:03   Like there's always going to be the ones that are popular

00:32:05   or the ones that are less popular.

00:32:06   And you get to have a diversified product line

00:32:08   when you sell overall a lot of a product.

00:32:11   If you sell a small amount,

00:32:12   you can't have 17 different models,

00:32:13   'cause then it costs a certain amount of money overhead

00:32:16   for each new model you have, right?

00:32:17   But I feel like the iPhone sells well enough

00:32:19   that there's room for small, medium, large,

00:32:23   instead of just medium, large.

00:32:26   I think there's room for the mini.

00:32:27   - It's large and extra large at this point.

00:32:29   - Right, but whatever, a diversity of sizes

00:32:32   and a diversity of price points,

00:32:34   the mini sells way, way less than the other ones.

00:32:36   But does it sell so little that it's not even viable?

00:32:39   The total number of iPhones is so high

00:32:41   that I think most phone manufacturers would kill

00:32:43   to sell as many minis as Apple did.

00:32:45   So I don't quite, you know,

00:32:46   like I understand every new variation you add,

00:32:50   you know, eats into your profit margins

00:32:52   'cause it would be, you know,

00:32:52   there's less overhead to make those same people

00:32:54   just buy the next size up or whatever.

00:32:56   But I feel like this is a kind of an Apple nickel

00:32:59   and diming type of thing.

00:33:00   It's like, let's not super duper,

00:33:01   like it is your most popular product.

00:33:03   If you can't diversify your most popular product

00:33:05   into a reasonable range of sizes,

00:33:08   then what can you do that with?

00:33:10   Like, if you just want to do the mini every other year or something, I feel like there's

00:33:13   a compromise here.

00:33:14   You know, when everyone says, "Oh, the mini didn't sell well, so it didn't make it," I

00:33:16   think people envision that they sold like 10 of them, right?

00:33:18   But they sold millions, right?

00:33:20   Just that's plenty to support a product.

00:33:22   So I do really hope it comes back.

00:33:25   Quick aside.

00:33:26   I just, I keep thinking about poor original gravity.

00:33:28   Marco, can we promise each other, you and me, that if we get word that House of Prime

00:33:32   Rib is folding, that you and I will make the trip for House of Prime Rib?

00:33:36   I know we've talked about this before, but for real, can we make sure that we do that?

00:33:39   - We can, I mean, that place, from what I gather,

00:33:42   I mean, I haven't been there in like five years,

00:33:43   but from what I gather, that place is so incredibly popular

00:33:46   that I think if they announced they were closing down

00:33:48   at some point in the near future,

00:33:50   I think they would be booked up solid

00:33:52   and we wouldn't be able to get in at any price.

00:33:54   - You're probably right.

00:33:55   - Although, it'd be all like the people

00:33:56   who are the insiders who would get in,

00:33:58   we'd have no chance.

00:33:59   - You're probably right.

00:34:00   - But also, because they are always that busy,

00:34:02   I think the odds that they are gonna shut down

00:34:04   are pretty low.

00:34:04   - Agreed, 1,000% agreed.

00:34:07   But one of my favorite restaurants in the entire world,

00:34:10   I cannot say enough good things about House of Prime Rib.

00:34:12   It is so good.

00:34:13   It's one of those things that like, what?

00:34:16   Really, this is what you're excited about?

00:34:18   Really?

00:34:19   This thing that's been the same way probably for 100 years?

00:34:22   Yes, that is what I'm excited about

00:34:24   because it's freaking perfect.

00:34:27   - It's like when you hear somebody describe a restaurant

00:34:29   as an institution, House of Prime Rib is the institution.

00:34:34   Like, it is the epitome of that description of a restaurant.

00:34:38   It is the best version of that

00:34:40   that I've ever seen anywhere in the world.

00:34:41   It is the institution.

00:34:43   - Anyway, sorry, I just, I miss that place so much.

00:34:46   Let's talk about a friend of the show, Quinn Nelson,

00:34:50   who has some very strong but unusual opinions

00:34:55   about the studio display.

00:34:57   But one of the things that Quinn has said

00:34:59   via Twitter in this case, and I'll just read his tweets,

00:35:02   I can't drop the idea that the studio display was originally slated to be the "2.5 to $3,000

00:35:08   mini-LED" and then changed late in production.

00:35:12   Another reason?

00:35:13   Math says that it has about a 285-watt power supply.

00:35:17   Even with the laptop connected, input/output, screen brightness maxed, and speakers blasting,

00:35:22   it barely draws over 165 watts with peak everything.

00:35:27   So that's a whole lot of extra power that the power supply can handle.

00:35:31   But why?

00:35:33   I don't personally buy this.

00:35:36   I think that this is just a quirk of the display,

00:35:40   or maybe Apple just leaving some padding, so to speak.

00:35:43   But I do understand where he's coming from,

00:35:46   even though I don't personally think that this is the case.

00:35:48   - Yeah, I mean, there's all sorts of complicating factors

00:35:51   that could be the reason why that power supply

00:35:53   is specced the way it is.

00:35:55   One of them, I didn't follow Quinn's math here,

00:35:58   like I didn't actually look into it,

00:35:59   but keep in mind, again, with all IO connected,

00:36:02   those ports have a certain maximum wattage

00:36:05   that they are spec'd to supply.

00:36:08   The laptop, of course, is gonna be pulling

00:36:11   100 watts from the cable, if possible.

00:36:13   So it sounds like kind of for most of that,

00:36:16   but if any of those were missed, efficiency losses,

00:36:20   there's a lot of things that could be slightly missed

00:36:23   or could make a big difference here.

00:36:24   But the idea that Apple would design this product

00:36:27   to have this fairly different component in it

00:36:31   and then swap it out and not change anything else about it,

00:36:36   I think that's generally not how Apple designs hardware

00:36:41   these days.

00:36:42   We always hear stories from the rumor mill of like,

00:36:45   oh, at the last minute, they pulled Touch ID

00:36:47   from this phone and everyone's like,

00:36:48   no, that was never meant to be there.

00:36:50   The rumor was just wrong.

00:36:52   I think Apple, these days, Apple, when they design hardware,

00:36:57   they do so pretty intentionally and with a lot of lead time.

00:37:01   And the odds that they would have that big of a change

00:37:05   so late in the game that they would not

00:37:07   change out the power supply for that reason alone,

00:37:10   I just don't think it's very likely.

00:37:12   There was at least one product-- I

00:37:14   forget if it was like an iPod Touch or an iPhone,

00:37:16   or maybe it was an iPad even, or just some iOS device handout

00:37:19   thing where if you looked at the logic board inside it,

00:37:22   you saw the connectors where a component would

00:37:25   be on the more expensive phone, but they just

00:37:27   didn't put it in that one. Do you remember the phone? Are you talking about the iPod touch with the missing camera?

00:37:30   Maybe that might be it.

00:37:32   Yeah, like this what I'm my point for this is that that was a long time ago

00:37:36   And I think the Apple of today wouldn't even do that. You know sometimes you do need to

00:37:41   Make a quote-unquote last-minute meaning a year before the product is announced

00:37:45   That's last minute when hardware designs where you make let's say you design logic board you decide actually we've decided this product isn't gonna

00:37:51   Have a camera, but you don't redesign logic board you just don't connect the component there

00:37:54   So, you know, it's just why why go through the expense of redesigning and revalidating the board or whatever

00:37:59   Just leave leave the traces with nothing connected to them. Right so that can happen

00:38:03   but

00:38:05   The the inside of studio display and we'll link to the I fix it teardown video

00:38:09   If you don't know what the inside of this thing looks like I

00:38:11   Mean, I'm not gonna say Quinn's not familiar with the inside of Apple products

00:38:15   It's constantly tearing them open and even said this in the video and in his tweets Apple over designs a lot of stuff

00:38:22   that's that's kind of their thing like the probably the the

00:38:25   Biggest example in many senses of the word is a 2019 Mac Pro if you look inside that thing. It's so over engineered

00:38:32   Everything in there is so much more expensive to make every little part every piece of plastic every piece of metal

00:38:39   the the circuit board everything being

00:38:41   Machined and precisely fit and custom-made and color matched, right? It's massively over engineered

00:38:50   There's no reason any of that stuff needs to be like that. It's you know, it's the old Steve Jobs thing

00:38:55   which is it's not just his thing is like, uh, you know a

00:38:57   folktale whatever like the inside of the cabinet or a drawer that nobody ever sees or the back of a piece of furniture is

00:39:04   Carefully designed even though it's up against the wall and no one ever sees it

00:39:07   But the craftsman sees that the craftsman will know it's there so they do a good job of it

00:39:10   Apple over engineers its hardware. So when you look at the iFixit teardown of this

00:39:14   laptop

00:39:16   Laptop this the Apple studio display

00:39:18   They do a gag in the beginning where they ask a bunch of sort of people who have never seen the insides and they show

00:39:23   The insides of an iMac and the insides of the studio display and they say which is the computer and which is the display?

00:39:27   And a bunch of people get it wrong

00:39:28   That doesn't show much of anything just because they both have circuit boards in them or whatever

00:39:31   But look at the studio display and look at how

00:39:34   Look at how nice it looks on the inside, right?

00:39:37   That's how Apple is makes things these days especially things that go anywhere near the pro realm like look look inside the

00:39:43   The Mac studio itself the little you know it doesn't look like a Mac mini in there looks more like a tiny Mac Pro

00:39:48   Everything precisely fit all sorts of custom parts everything is all color matched inside there as well

00:39:55   So when I look at the studio display, I think yep

00:39:58   It's a typically over engineered modern Apple piece of hardware

00:40:02   Hopefully over an engineered in all the good ways as in all the over respect the power supply because it's you don't want to run a

00:40:08   Power supply at the ragged edge of what it's able to support or whatever

00:40:11   but not so much that like

00:40:13   This was an entirely different product and they just sort of changed plans a year ago and made a slightly different one now

00:40:20   That could be the case because Apple is known to reuse pieces like them power bricks and other things where they just like why make

00:40:27   One of them when you know if I make a power brick this size

00:40:31   We can use it with two of our laptops and we don't have to make one

00:40:33   Special for the other one because they can just use the same part for both that is definitely an Apple move

00:40:36   So I would say watch to see if they do release the mini LED version of this and

00:40:41   When that one gets torn down how many parts does it share with this one?

00:40:45   Maybe that will bear it out because it is like Apple to say hey

00:40:48   We're gonna make a bunch of different versions of this whether it's the Mac studio with the ultra and the max inside it or whatever

00:40:52   to basically try to share as many parts as you can or

00:40:56   You know or like the m1 Mac mini reuse the power supply from the Intel one just because well

00:41:00   I make a new power supply even though it's massively oversized for the m1. It works fine. Just keep using it, right?

00:41:06   So I don't entirely discount this,

00:41:07   but I do say most of the weirdness of the inside of this

00:41:12   and other Apple products is just because Apple,

00:41:14   especially on their pro-ish products,

00:41:16   loves to over-engineer things,

00:41:18   as in putting more time, energy, and also money

00:41:21   into things that other manufacturers do not.

00:41:24   - We are brought to you this week by Memberful.

00:41:28   Monetize your passion and diversify your revenue

00:41:31   by selling memberships directly to your audience.

00:41:35   Memberful is the easiest way to sell memberships.

00:41:37   It's used by some of the biggest creators on the web

00:41:40   to sell to their audiences.

00:41:41   You know, if you're looking to add membership

00:41:43   to your existing audience, your existing business,

00:41:45   you want a solution that works with your existing tech stack

00:41:48   so you can launch a new revenue stream

00:41:50   without rebuilding your entire stack.

00:41:53   Memberful handles all this for you.

00:41:54   They handle all the hard stuff

00:41:56   and they seamlessly integrate

00:41:58   with the tools you already use,

00:41:59   tools like WordPress, MailChimp, Discord, and so many more.

00:42:04   And they let you also, this is very important to me,

00:42:07   Memberful always leaves control of your branding

00:42:10   and your ownership to you.

00:42:11   So you have full control.

00:42:13   You own your brand, you own your membership,

00:42:15   payments even go directly to your own Stripe account.

00:42:18   It's fantastic.

00:42:19   And of course, all the stuff that you would expect

00:42:21   from membership programs,

00:42:22   Memberful will do very, very easily for you.

00:42:25   You can do things like create gated content,

00:42:27   create members only podcast,

00:42:29   using your existing podcast hosting,

00:42:30   you don't even have to move that.

00:42:31   You can start earning more revenue

00:42:33   with your current publishing workflow,

00:42:34   without changing any of your tools.

00:42:36   It's just wonderful.

00:42:37   They have a great support team

00:42:38   if you need any help getting things set up.

00:42:39   You know, their interests are aligned with yours.

00:42:42   They are only trying to help you succeed.

00:42:44   They have optimized checkouts, Apple Pay,

00:42:46   member management, analytics, free trial support,

00:42:48   gift subscriptions, so much more.

00:42:51   So it is just a fantastic platform to see.

00:42:54   So check out Memberful today for free

00:42:57   with no credit card required at memberful.com/atp.

00:43:01   Diversify your revenue and really sell directly

00:43:05   to your audience, it's so nice doing it.

00:43:07   I can tell you it's wonderful having a membership program

00:43:09   and Memberful is the easiest way to make one.

00:43:10   So memberful.com/ATP, get started for free,

00:43:14   no credit card required there.

00:43:16   Thank you so much to Memberful for sponsoring our show.

00:43:19   (upbeat music)

00:43:21   - All right, so we had a little bit of,

00:43:24   well more than a little bit of feedback

00:43:25   about multiple computers and one Thunderbolt monitor.

00:43:28   And I'm not gonna make the obvious joke here,

00:43:30   you're welcome.

00:43:31   Steve Wado wrote, "I just got this to try to share my studio display between a MacBook

00:43:36   Pro and a Mac Mini.

00:43:37   I have my peripherals plugged into the display, so when I switch with this, everything swaps

00:43:41   over."

00:43:42   And this is, "Cable decon USB-C type C 8K updated switch USB 3.1 C Gen 2 cable for video

00:43:50   by direction 8K at 30 hertz 4K at 120 hertz power delivery at 100 watts 10 gigabit per

00:43:55   second data transfer splitter converter."

00:43:56   Oh, I made it.

00:43:57   - Okay, so this is basically like a HDMI switch,

00:44:02   but instead of being for HDMI, it's obviously for USB-C

00:44:06   or I guess not Thunderbolt, maybe Thunderbolt.

00:44:09   - Yeah, no, so it's very much like a KVM.

00:44:11   So it's like a one in, two out, or I guess two in,

00:44:16   one out switch that only switches USB-C, not Thunderbolt.

00:44:21   So what's interesting about this is that

00:44:24   in the description of it, they specifically say

00:44:27   in their Amazon descriptionees,

00:44:30   do not use this with the LG monitor and Max,

00:44:34   because the first generation LG ultrafine monitors

00:44:39   were Thunderbolt only.

00:44:41   I believe the newer generation of them added USB-C support

00:44:44   so they could be used with iPads.

00:44:46   But basically, any monitor that did not work

00:44:49   with the original iPad Pro will not work with this,

00:44:54   but because it is USB-C but not Thunderbolt.

00:44:58   And now it does seem to support all the high data rates

00:45:01   and everything.

00:45:02   And so it is apparently supporting the USB-C display mode

00:45:06   or whatever that is at the low level,

00:45:08   but it is literally just USB-C, not Thunderbolt.

00:45:11   But most modern nice monitors, including the studio display,

00:45:16   will actually switch properly that way.

00:45:19   So this should theoretically work with that.

00:45:21   Will it work with the XDR?

00:45:23   I don't think so, right?

00:45:24   - I thought it would, but--

00:45:26   - I don't think it can do that resolution over USB-C,

00:45:28   but I can't keep track.

00:45:29   - Yeah, it might work with the XDR,

00:45:31   but it definitely does work with the studio display.

00:45:33   - And this is the thing about a lot of like,

00:45:35   when you're looking for a Thunderbolt whatever,

00:45:37   it's very easy to accidentally find a USB whatever

00:45:40   that's not actually Thunderbolt anything,

00:45:42   because the connector looks the same.

00:45:43   And often it will do the job that you want,

00:45:45   and so you don't care.

00:45:46   Like if it supports the resolution you want,

00:45:48   and it supports all the peripherals, and everything works,

00:45:50   then what do you care whether it's Thunderbolt or USB?

00:45:52   but you do have to be careful,

00:45:53   and usually the way you can tell is

00:45:55   if it's Thunderbolt anything, it's way more expensive.

00:45:57   - Well, if it's Thunderbolt anything,

00:45:58   it will usually say Intel certified in the description,

00:46:02   and it will always have the Thunderbolt

00:46:04   little lightning logo on the port.

00:46:06   If you don't see that lightning logo, it is not Thunderbolt.

00:46:08   - All right, so Steve continues,

00:46:10   "I literally just plugged it in a few minutes ago

00:46:11   "and it seems to work just great.

00:46:13   "Unless I'm missing some little detail

00:46:14   "around resolution, et cetera, but I think it's okay.

00:46:16   "Speakers and camera work great

00:46:17   "and everything still identifies to the system

00:46:19   "as a studio display.

00:46:20   "I haven't messed with spatial audio,

00:46:21   I just use the speakers, which are excellent.

00:46:24   So according to Steve, this is an option

00:46:26   if you just want a sort of KVM kind of thing

00:46:30   that's literally just one USB-C port

00:46:33   that you can plug your studio display into.

00:46:36   - Does it make some sense for Apple to have supported this?

00:46:39   They might just get it for free

00:46:39   with the chipset they're using,

00:46:40   but like, aren't there still,

00:46:42   I mean, I suppose people have older computers,

00:46:43   like a Macs that you might want to connect

00:46:46   to the studio display that don't support Thunderbolt,

00:46:48   but are listed as supported by the studio display?

00:46:52   Like what?

00:46:54   I mean, they still have USB-C, though?

00:46:55   The first generation MacBook?

00:46:56   The adorable, maybe?

00:46:58   I don't think Apple wants to acknowledge anybody still

00:47:00   uses those things.

00:47:01   Maybe they just get it free as part of the chipset.

00:47:02   I don't know.

00:47:03   But anyway, this--

00:47:04   The keyboards have already broken by now, anyway.

00:47:06   Not errands.

00:47:07   Not errands.

00:47:07   By using this KVM, you're basically

00:47:09   forcing your computer to speak USB-C, because the KVM,

00:47:12   this thing supports USB-C, but not Thunderbolt.

00:47:15   And then once you do that, apparently Thunderbolt display.

00:47:17   Thunderbolt display. Apparently the studio display is just fine with that and

00:47:22   you know I was that I asked that's why I asked the follow-up question like does

00:47:25   the camera work does the speakers work and yeah apparently it all works great.

00:47:28   And then tangentially an anonymous friend of the show wrote there is in

00:47:32   fact a KVM switch for Thunderbolt that would let you multiplex two inputs to

00:47:36   one output and thus build a switch for multiple Macs to use one Thunderbolt

00:47:39   monitor. It's part of Intel's Thunderbolt developer tools which are used for

00:47:43   stuff like hot plug testing since test software can poke the quote-unquote

00:47:46   Switch from input A to input B, but it seems like none of the Thunderbolt dock developers

00:47:51   have yet thought of shipping this as an actual product.

00:47:54   So it exists, but you can't have it.

00:47:56   Yeah, this is like if you are a manufacturer, like say you're CalDigit and you're making

00:48:01   their Thunderbolt docks, this is apparently a piece of hardware that you can, I guess,

00:48:05   get from Intel or somebody to help you develop your hardware product, and it basically acts

00:48:10   like a software controlled switch which changes your Thunderbolt things.

00:48:12   I'm not sure you could just take that and say okay, we're gonna package this and resell it

00:48:17   It's maybe a part of some developer agreement when you get this piece of hardware, but it shows that it's definitely possible

00:48:22   It's just not a product that is in our lineup. Yeah, and the anonymous friend did share a picture with us

00:48:29   We are not at liberty to share it with everyone else unfortunately, but I can I can assure you this picture

00:48:33   It makes me think that this is absolutely a factual thing and plus this anonymous friend wouldn't lie. So this is a real thing

00:48:40   It's just we can't have it

00:48:41   Now, tangentially related, there's been a lot of follow-up and kerfuffle with regards

00:48:47   to USB Ethernet adapters that are apparently slow on modern Macs.

00:48:51   And James Badger writes, "Gigabit USB-C Ethernet adapters mostly use the Realtek RTL8153 chipset.

00:49:00   Realtek's last driver for the RTL8153 is for Mac OS 1015 Catalina.

00:49:04   A newer Mac OS version, COS will fall back to the default "Apple ECM" driver, which has

00:49:10   slower transfer speeds and will noticeably increase CPU usage during transfers. The 2.5

00:49:15   gigabit adapters sometimes use the Realtek RTL8156 instead. The 8156 uses the NCM MacOS driver,

00:49:24   which is much higher performance. We also got some feedback from Lex Postma about this as well.

00:49:27   But yeah, apparently if you use the, what is it, 81, where did it go, 8153 chipset, which is like

00:49:36   almost every USB C thing dongle that has an Ethernet adapter on board that's no

00:49:43   bueno in modern versions of Mac OS so you need to find something that's

00:49:47   basically two and a half gigabit to be to be more likely in the safe zone yeah

00:49:52   or use Apple's Thunderbolt controller which I'm using through stupid adapter

00:49:56   it's a little more pricey like you can get freezing for reference like you can

00:49:59   get a 2.5 gigabit adapter with the 8156 the good chipset for like 30 bucks so

00:50:05   So these aren't super expensive things,

00:50:07   even if you don't ever plan to use

00:50:09   the two and a half gigabit capability of it.

00:50:12   So that's one option.

00:50:13   And just to clarify, as far as I can tell,

00:50:16   I did some research on this already today,

00:50:17   as far as I can tell, the Apple-sold Belkin USB-C

00:50:21   Ethernet adapter is the crappy chipset, the 8153.

00:50:25   As far as I can tell, mine is about 100 miles away

00:50:29   or about 50 miles away right now,

00:50:30   so I can't actually check mine.

00:50:31   But I did as much research as I could

00:50:33   seem to be that's the case.

00:50:35   I also, somebody said somewhere, like on Hacker News,

00:50:39   that the CalDigit TS4, the new CalDigit doc,

00:50:42   might be the nice chip, the 8156.

00:50:45   - Yeah, how can I figure that out?

00:50:46   I'm running one right now.

00:50:47   Where can I go to find this out?

00:50:48   In System Report?

00:50:49   - There's like a kext command you can run

00:50:51   to list what it's using.

00:50:52   - Oh, shoot, all right.

00:50:53   - If you check out that blog post, it'll be in there.

00:50:56   Yeah, but I actually emailed CalDigit earlier today

00:50:58   to ask them, but I haven't heard back yet.

00:51:01   So, we'll see.

00:51:02   But yeah, basically if you wanna be sure of it,

00:51:04   if you actually search like Amazon or whatever

00:51:06   for RTL8156 USB adapters,

00:51:09   you will find adapters that are two and a half gigabit

00:51:12   that actually say specifically they have that chip in them.

00:51:15   So that's probably the safest bet.

00:51:18   - And to be clear, it's not like the chipset

00:51:19   is crappy or anything, it's just that there's no,

00:51:21   apparently no more driver, custom driver for it,

00:51:25   and so it falls back to some generic driver

00:51:27   that does a bad job, right?

00:51:28   And I think someone said that like Apple's response to,

00:51:31   you know, investigating this is like, oh, well,

00:51:33   the manufacturers of those product need to supply Apple

00:51:36   with the correct drivers for their new driver model,

00:51:39   blah, blah, blah.

00:51:40   So this is basically just a driver issue.

00:51:41   So this could be solved with software,

00:51:44   but I think it seems like Apple is saying that,

00:51:45   well, it's not our responsibility to solve this

00:51:48   with software, the hardware manufacturers need to work

00:51:50   with us to supply the correct driver that we will then

00:51:53   bundle with macOS and then your RTL 8153 chipset

00:51:57   will go back to performing the way it's supposed to.

00:52:00   - Yeah, I do think it's kind of galling

00:52:01   that Apple is still selling that terribly slow

00:52:03   Belkin USB-C adapter in their stores

00:52:05   as their only USB-C ethernet adapter.

00:52:08   - There is so much info for me to look through

00:52:11   on this command. (laughing)

00:52:12   I am not gonna be able to figure this out

00:52:14   during the time that we're recording

00:52:15   if you want me to participate at all.

00:52:16   - That's fine.

00:52:17   - Holy jimolies, I'll have to look into this,

00:52:19   but there's a lot here.

00:52:20   - Yeah, there is.

00:52:21   I read it earlier, it took a very long time.

00:52:23   - No, no, no, I'm not even talking about the blog post,

00:52:25   I'm talking about the command output

00:52:26   from this command that I just ran.

00:52:30   I would put a gist up and have the chat room go through it,

00:52:33   but I don't know if there's something private in here,

00:52:34   who knows.

00:52:35   Nevertheless, we'll move right along.

00:52:37   Tell us about Canon EF lenses and how they can work

00:52:40   or cannot work with mirrorless cameras.

00:52:42   - Oh yeah, I put this in here.

00:52:43   It turns out, so there was a question

00:52:45   an episode or two ago in Ask ATP about

00:52:48   a person who owned a bunch of Canon EF lenses

00:52:50   trying to choose between, going to the mirrorless world,

00:52:53   trying to choose between the Canon ecosystem

00:52:54   in the Sony mirrorless ecosystem.

00:52:57   And what we didn't know at the time,

00:52:59   and what we, or at least we didn't say,

00:53:01   we got a couple of people wrote in,

00:53:03   both named Chris, who told us that Canon EF lenses

00:53:07   can be easily adapted to their new RF mount

00:53:11   on their mirrorless cameras.

00:53:12   The adapter's apparently about 100 bucks,

00:53:14   and it works really well.

00:53:15   They say there's not really any major performance losses

00:53:18   by using it, so that's pretty cool.

00:53:20   I didn't realize that.

00:53:21   I figured there was probably an adapter,

00:53:23   but I was surprised to hear that it's kind of,

00:53:26   you know, once you pay for it,

00:53:28   that it's kind of free in the sense that you don't,

00:53:29   you don't seem to lose much benefit of the lenses

00:53:31   by using them through the adapter.

00:53:32   So that's cool, and that changes things.

00:53:34   And if, you know, if I had a bunch of EF lenses,

00:53:36   which I mean, we kind of do, they're more my wife's,

00:53:39   but that would certainly, you know,

00:53:41   factor into my decision as well,

00:53:42   because some of those EF lenses are really, really good,

00:53:45   and it would be a shame to lose them.

00:53:47   - There's always an adapter,

00:53:48   but like the thing that people, you know,

00:53:50   the downsides that people have cited is like,

00:53:52   Well, maybe you get fewer frames per second

00:53:55   if you use the adapter, because the sort of communication

00:53:57   between the camera and the focusing system and everything

00:54:00   aren't that good.

00:54:01   But the second one that no one mentioned that I'll throw out

00:54:03   there is the technology inside lenses moves on,

00:54:07   particularly the focusing technology is one of the reasons

00:54:10   why I was kind of being a little bit hesitant

00:54:13   about the 55 millimeter prime lens

00:54:16   we were talking about last time.

00:54:18   Every time a new lens is made,

00:54:20   they improve the little motors that move the elements

00:54:22   inside the lens, the focusing elements and everything,

00:54:25   to make them faster and quieter or both.

00:54:28   And so if you have a big collection

00:54:29   of really expensive Canon EF lenses,

00:54:32   that are many, many years old,

00:54:33   they haven't gotten any worse.

00:54:35   They're just as good as they always were,

00:54:36   but it is possible that newer Canon lenses,

00:54:39   for mirrorless or otherwise,

00:54:41   have faster or quieter focusing or both.

00:54:44   But otherwise, yeah, it seems like the adapter

00:54:47   is able to pass through all the things

00:54:49   that it needs to pass through,

00:54:49   but sometimes the performance of your lens

00:54:52   will even be slightly less than it was

00:54:54   when it was directly connected to the full frame.

00:54:57   But in other cases, I would say like,

00:54:58   maybe there's a newer lens.

00:55:00   And the good thing about lenses

00:55:00   is they have good resale value.

00:55:01   So if you really do want,

00:55:03   even if you're moving to Canon mirrorless,

00:55:05   sell all your Canon DSLR lenses,

00:55:09   you'll make probably pretty good money on them.

00:55:11   And then to put that money into newer equivalent lenses

00:55:13   that have more modern technology inside them.

00:55:15   I'm not sure if Canon is as aggressive

00:55:17   at updating the guts as Sony is,

00:55:19   but I would imagine they are

00:55:21   because even like the third party Sony lenses

00:55:24   from year to year, you have to be careful

00:55:26   you don't accidentally get the quote unquote old one

00:55:28   that has like the noisy focusing motors,

00:55:32   just like the noisy Mac Studio.

00:55:34   Is it totally inaudible or is it the loudest thing

00:55:35   you've ever heard and you can't use it at weddings

00:55:37   because it's so noisy?

00:55:38   - We are sponsored this week by Remote.

00:55:42   Do you employ or pay workers in other countries?

00:55:45   Even if you don't yet, you might soon.

00:55:46   Now that remote work is the norm,

00:55:48   employees have more freedom than ever to move around.

00:55:51   If you want to keep your best people,

00:55:52   you have to stay flexible.

00:55:54   That's why Remote makes it easy for companies of all sizes

00:55:57   to employ global teams.

00:55:59   They take care of international payroll, benefits, taxes,

00:56:02   and local compliance, so you can focus less on paperwork

00:56:05   and more on growing your business.

00:56:07   Remote helps you onboard full-time employees

00:56:09   or contractors in countries all over the world in minutes

00:56:13   with its simple, easy-to-use platform.

00:56:15   And Remote lets you rest easy by providing

00:56:17   the most comprehensive intellectual property

00:56:20   protections and data security in the industry.

00:56:23   They own full local legal entities

00:56:25   in all their covered countries, guaranteeing you never

00:56:28   have to deal with a third party ever.

00:56:31   And to save you money, Remote never charges any fees

00:56:34   or salary percentages.

00:56:35   You get access to everything Remote offers,

00:56:37   from payroll to compliance to benefits management,

00:56:40   for one low flat rate.

00:56:42   No hidden fees, no surprises ever.

00:56:45   Just the best global employment solution in the business.

00:56:49   Best of all, you, our listeners,

00:56:50   get an even bigger discount.

00:56:52   You can get 50% off Remote's full suite

00:56:55   of global employment solutions

00:56:56   for your first employee for three months.

00:56:59   Just visit remote.com/ATP and use promo code ATP.

00:57:04   See why top global companies like GitLab

00:57:07   trust Remote to manage and pay their international teams.

00:57:10   Whether you wanna hire one person or 100,

00:57:12   Remote makes it easy.

00:57:14   Visit remote.com/ATP and use promo code ATP

00:57:18   to get started.

00:57:19   Thank you so much to Remote for sponsoring our show.

00:57:22   (upbeat music)

00:57:24   - So we have sort of kind of breaking news.

00:57:29   We have a new setup here at my desk and--

00:57:34   - That's not breaking news.

00:57:35   - And it is breaking news--

00:57:36   - It's more news when you don't have a new setup

00:57:38   at your desk.

00:57:39   - That's true, but this is hypothetically

00:57:42   the end of the road because I am looking

00:57:44   at an Apple Studio display right now.

00:57:46   - Hey!

00:57:47   It is beautiful and I love it so much.

00:57:51   It is so delightful.

00:57:53   I am so excited about this thing.

00:57:56   In so many ways, it is the anti-KC monitor

00:57:59   because it was a fortune.

00:58:01   It doesn't do a lot of the things that I kind of wish it did.

00:58:04   I don't care.

00:58:05   It's so beautiful.

00:58:06   It's so, so beautiful.

00:58:08   Everything about it, I love it.

00:58:09   Physically, the case, I got the VESA mount,

00:58:13   VESA VESA mount one,

00:58:15   And I'm using it on a not particularly great stand,

00:58:18   but that's a choice that I made.

00:58:19   It's not the fault of the monitor.

00:58:22   But the monitor itself, it looks so pretty.

00:58:25   It's so nice.

00:58:26   It looks beautiful.

00:58:27   And the screen of course is excellent.

00:58:30   I have it next to the Ultra Meche

00:58:33   and the Ultra Meche just looks awful and dated

00:58:37   and chintzy and crummy by comparison.

00:58:39   And I mean both the physical case

00:58:42   and the screen, it's probably a placebo,

00:58:45   but I really feel like the screen is genuinely,

00:58:47   not only is it brighter, but it just looks better to me.

00:58:49   Now this ultra fine is on the earlier side

00:58:52   of the ultra fine display, so that's probably part of it.

00:58:55   But nevertheless, I genuinely think it looks better.

00:58:58   The sound is way better.

00:59:00   - Before we move on to the sound,

00:59:01   I wanna say on the appearance,

00:59:02   that's not just your imagination.

00:59:03   We mentioned this on a past show that the studio display

00:59:06   has a higher maximum peak brightness than the LG does,

00:59:10   just from the product specs,

00:59:11   and also people have measured it and seen that's the case.

00:59:14   People have also looked at the actual model number

00:59:16   of the panel and it is not the same model numbers in the LG.

00:59:19   It's also not the same model numbers

00:59:21   in the 5K iMac, I believe.

00:59:22   And in people doing side-by-side comparisons

00:59:25   of, you know, with measurement equipment and everything,

00:59:27   not only does the studio display get slightly brighter,

00:59:30   not a lot brighter, but brighter enough

00:59:31   that you can notice it without measuring instruments.

00:59:33   Like you can notice it with your eyeballs.

00:59:34   But the black levels are also slightly better

00:59:37   than the LG display or the iMac.

00:59:39   It's not dramatic.

00:59:40   You really need to see them side-by-side to notice that,

00:59:42   but it is a real thing.

00:59:43   You can even see it in YouTube videos.

00:59:45   Like you don't need to, you don't need measuring equipment,

00:59:47   you don't need to trust a bunch of people doing it.

00:59:48   You can just look at the side by side photos

00:59:50   of the two monitors right next to each other.

00:59:52   The blacks are a little deeper

00:59:53   and the brights are a little bit brighter.

00:59:55   The-- - Like Oxy-Cree?

00:59:56   - I don't know if I wanna tell Casey this

00:59:58   to make him potentially find things wrong with his monitor,

01:00:01   but the one complaint I have seen about the studio display,

01:00:04   and I feel like it could be manufacturing tolerances,

01:00:06   but it could just be a fact of life of the display,

01:00:09   is minor vignetting around the menu bar, potentially?

01:00:14   I mean, the XDR has vignetting around all the edges,

01:00:16   as Marko's complained about in the past.

01:00:18   Casey, it's hard to tell with the menu bar

01:00:20   'cause the menu bar has shading and is translucent anyway,

01:00:22   but if you just fill the whole screen with white

01:00:24   from top to bottom covering everything,

01:00:26   including the menu bar,

01:00:28   check to see if you see a little bit of a shadow

01:00:30   on the edges.

01:00:31   - I'd rather not, actually.

01:00:33   - All right. - Thank you for offering.

01:00:34   I'd rather not. - That's a thing

01:00:36   you might note.

01:00:37   I only saw one person post a picture of it

01:00:39   and I could see it and I could like,

01:00:40   yeah, my XTR looks like that.

01:00:41   So even for $5,000, you can't escape that

01:00:44   because it's just, I'm not gonna say it's inherent

01:00:47   in the technology that they're using to backlight it,

01:00:49   but it is difficult to control when you use

01:00:51   this kind of technology to make a monitor.

01:00:54   - I mean, if you can also find some masquerading in it,

01:00:56   you can really make it a theme.

01:00:58   - There it is, I was waiting for it.

01:00:59   Nicely done, nicely done indeed.

01:01:01   So yeah, so this thing, I think it looks better.

01:01:04   It sounds so much better.

01:01:06   I was suffering through the Ultrafine's speakers

01:01:11   because I haven't yet put together an amp

01:01:14   for the speakers that came in my Marco Christmas box.

01:01:17   - What are you waiting for?

01:01:18   I've updated the firmware on my Marco Christmas present,

01:01:22   I've changed all the settings,

01:01:23   I bought a lens for it, I bought a new SD card,

01:01:27   I'm just, you haven't even,

01:01:29   is it still in the box? - I've been busy,

01:01:30   I've been busy, all right?

01:01:31   I've been busy.

01:01:32   Nevertheless, so the volume is great,

01:01:34   And you know what's an amazingly great feature

01:01:36   on something that outputs an EO audio?

01:01:39   Having a linear volume control.

01:01:42   And this has a linear volume control.

01:01:44   It doesn't go, you know, quiet, sightless, quiet,

01:01:47   sightless, quiet, really loud, louder, et cetera.

01:01:50   Because that's what the LG does.

01:01:52   Like one, two, and three are linear.

01:01:53   Then when you jump from three to four,

01:01:55   it's definitely by comparison.

01:01:59   And so this is linear, which is excellent.

01:02:01   It works via the CalDigit TS4, which is also excellent

01:02:05   because as mentioned earlier, the LG Ultrafine,

01:02:08   at least the Ultrafine I have, doesn't get full 5K

01:02:12   if I plug it in via the CalDigit, which is annoying,

01:02:14   but you know, it is what it is.

01:02:16   The screen is completely happy going through the CalDigit,

01:02:20   no issues.

01:02:21   It wakes much faster than the Ultrafine does,

01:02:24   which I'm not at all surprised by.

01:02:26   Also, real quick about the CalDigit TS4,

01:02:29   It is working really well.

01:02:31   It's a fortune.

01:02:32   It was like 350 bucks or something like that,

01:02:33   but I really like it.

01:02:34   The only thing I will say,

01:02:35   and I don't think I said this on the show before,

01:02:37   the onboard ethernet, which I still haven't figured out

01:02:40   if it's the good or bad real tech,

01:02:41   but the onboard ethernet, which is two and a half gigabit,

01:02:43   it didn't work for beans

01:02:46   when I first plugged everything in.

01:02:47   And it turns out that you have to go into,

01:02:50   I know this is off the top of my head,

01:02:51   in system preferences and network,

01:02:53   and then if you go into like advanced for the TS4,

01:02:55   or for the ethernet connection on the TS4,

01:02:57   Whatever that last tab is,

01:02:59   I think it's like the hardware settings,

01:03:01   there's a bunch of different options,

01:03:03   including using energy efficient ethernet,

01:03:06   and you have to turn that off because reasons.

01:03:09   I don't really understand why,

01:03:10   but CalDigit recommends this.

01:03:12   Once I did that, it's been extremely reliable.

01:03:14   And I have heard from other people

01:03:16   who sleep their computers frequently

01:03:18   that waking the CalDigit up from sleep

01:03:20   can be a little spotty.

01:03:22   I don't know if that's a macOS problem

01:03:23   or a CalDigit problem.

01:03:24   I don't sleep my Mac barely ever,

01:03:27   So for me, this is not something I've run into,

01:03:29   but that is something to consider.

01:03:31   Also finding a CalDigit TS4 right now

01:03:34   is freaking impossible.

01:03:34   - Yeah, you can't.

01:03:35   I tried to buy one, like when it first came out,

01:03:37   I looked again today when I was doing this research.

01:03:39   They're nowhere.

01:03:41   - Yeah, so it's a pain in the butt in that regard.

01:03:43   But as a quick aside, I do like the CalDigit TS4.

01:03:47   I give it a thumbs up for my use cases.

01:03:50   Again, be a little careful if you sleep your computer often

01:03:53   or whatever the case may be.

01:03:55   We did a video call this morning using Zoom.

01:03:57   We were talking to someone

01:03:58   and that was my first experience with center stage.

01:04:02   The camera is kind of garbage right now.

01:04:05   Like your face looks very porcelain.

01:04:07   I think I heard Snell describe it that way

01:04:08   and it was accurate.

01:04:10   I mean, I don't think it's, I shouldn't say it's garbage.

01:04:12   It's not garbage.

01:04:13   It's just not what you would expect

01:04:15   from the hardware that you know is in the screen.

01:04:18   And we're being told it would have got better with time,

01:04:20   software, software, software.

01:04:21   But I found it serviceable for the sorts of things

01:04:26   that I need to do.

01:04:27   But if you're one of those people who wants to,

01:04:29   who is thinking about setting up a 4K camera

01:04:32   pointed at your face, on top of your monitor or whatever,

01:04:34   it is not that nice.

01:04:36   But center stage, super cool.

01:04:38   And I did not see any, or if I didn't see any,

01:04:42   I didn't notice, of the delay

01:04:45   where you shimmy to one side or the other

01:04:47   and the quote unquote camera person is like,

01:04:50   What, huh? Oh, shoot, I gotta move.

01:04:51   Yeah, I didn't personally see any of that.

01:04:53   I'm not saying it doesn't exist.

01:04:54   I'm not saying it's not a problem for others,

01:04:56   but I didn't see any, and center stage is super cool.

01:04:59   It was Aaron and I talking to our financial advisor,

01:05:02   and Michaela would come in and out of frame

01:05:03   from time to time, and it would shimmy over

01:05:06   to show Michaela, and then as she left,

01:05:10   the frame would tighten up on Aaron and me.

01:05:12   It was really cool.

01:05:13   It wasn't 1,000% perfect, but I wouldn't say

01:05:16   I saw a sleepy camera person.

01:05:19   It's just occasionally the camera person made a choice

01:05:22   that I wouldn't have made.

01:05:24   But all in all though, super thumbs up for center stage.

01:05:28   Let's see.

01:05:30   Oh, the LG, everything about it looks like garbage

01:05:32   and I hate it.

01:05:33   And one of the first things I thought to myself,

01:05:36   so I'm using this two monitor VESA stand

01:05:41   because of reasons that are not interesting.

01:05:44   And so I have the studio display directly in front of me

01:05:48   And I have the LG taking the position

01:05:50   that the 4K display had previously taken.

01:05:53   So it's offset to my right, and it's at an angle,

01:05:56   you know, compared to the studio display.

01:05:58   And within two minutes of setting this all on my desk again,

01:06:03   I had for a fleeting moment the thought to myself,

01:06:07   should I get a second one of these?

01:06:08   (laughing)

01:06:10   - This is how it happens.

01:06:11   - Because the LG, I hated you whining, Marco,

01:06:16   about how the stand is and how,

01:06:17   "Oh, you can see the LG logo."

01:06:19   - No, no, hold on.

01:06:20   I don't think I ever complained about the logo.

01:06:22   - Oh, you did, you absolutely did.

01:06:24   - The whole thing is hideous for lots of other reasons.

01:06:26   The weird proportions of the bezel,

01:06:28   the big forehead on top, the plastic everywhere,

01:06:31   the stand is ugly.

01:06:32   There's lots of other things about it that are ugly.

01:06:33   The actual LG logo, I don't find that offensive.

01:06:35   What I find offensive is the incredibly mediocre

01:06:37   build quality of everything else.

01:06:38   - Yeah, so I agree with that, and #MarcoWasRight.

01:06:42   It is ultra meh, but I genuinely, for a fleeting moment,

01:06:46   thoughts to myself, maybe I should just get a second one of these.

01:06:49   Wouldn't, wouldn't that, uh, no, stop.

01:06:51   No, no.

01:06:52   If you order it now, it'll probably come by the fall.

01:06:54   That's also true.

01:06:55   But then they'll have, they'll have the pro version with the mini led.

01:06:58   I'm genuinely worried that that's going to happen, that there'll be a pro

01:07:01   version.

01:07:02   I'm worried.

01:07:03   My, my first studio display is probably going to come around the time of WNVDC.

01:07:07   So I'm worried that, that the pro versions are going to come out and I'm going to

01:07:12   be in another 2,500 bucks for a monitor.

01:07:14   and then this'll get shimmied over

01:07:16   to where the ultra fine is now,

01:07:18   and this Phantom new studio display pro

01:07:20   will be in front of me, I don't know, whatever.

01:07:22   But I adore this thing.

01:07:25   It is, by some measures, a crummy display.

01:07:28   It is, by some measures, deeply overpriced.

01:07:31   I don't care.

01:07:33   And Snell, not on the most recent upgrade,

01:07:36   I think it was last week's upgrade,

01:07:38   Snell talked a lot about how people are expecting

01:07:40   this monitor to serve purposes

01:07:42   that it really probably wasn't designed to serve.

01:07:45   And he did a much better job.

01:07:47   I'm not even gonna try to summarize what he was saying

01:07:49   'cause I'll butcher it,

01:07:50   but I agree with everything Snell said

01:07:52   in that episode of Upgrade.

01:07:55   If you want the sorts of things that I want,

01:07:59   if you want something that's nice to look at,

01:08:00   both in the sense of the screen is nice

01:08:03   and in the sense of the industrial design is nice,

01:08:05   if you want something that will work reliably

01:08:07   with your computer, if you want something, you hope,

01:08:10   If you want something that has a webcam,

01:08:13   if you want something that isn't $5,000,

01:08:16   if you want something that's natively 5K,

01:08:19   if these are things that you care about,

01:08:21   this is the perfect display for you.

01:08:23   And I don't think it's poorly priced.

01:08:26   It is expensive.

01:08:27   I'm not saying it's cheap,

01:08:28   but I don't think it's unreasonably priced.

01:08:30   And I am so thankful that I got this.

01:08:33   I am so excited about it.

01:08:35   I love it.

01:08:36   So two hyper enthusiastic thumbs up for me.

01:08:40   Remind me of this when it crashes

01:08:42   in the middle of us recording,

01:08:43   sitting here now, two tremendous thumbs up.

01:08:46   I am in love with this thing.

01:08:47   - As always software could potentially be the Achilles heel.

01:08:50   We'll see.

01:08:51   We already talked about Thunderbolt display in the past

01:08:53   having problems with software,

01:08:55   but that wasn't running iOS.

01:08:56   So hopefully that makes this better or maybe worse.

01:08:58   I don't know.

01:08:59   We'll see how it goes.

01:09:00   One of the theories, one of my theories

01:09:02   about why we haven't seen an update to fix the camera,

01:09:04   Is it because the display is running iOS,

01:09:06   you're not going to get an update until there's an iOS

01:09:08   update?

01:09:08   And we kind of know how long it tends

01:09:10   to be between iOS updates.

01:09:12   It's not like they rush them out unless it's a security patch.

01:09:14   So I'm just assuming that whatever camera fix is

01:09:17   going to come the next time our iPhones get a point update,

01:09:20   right?

01:09:20   We'll see how that goes.

01:09:21   I mean, there's no reason they have to do that.

01:09:23   They could divorce the two versions.

01:09:24   They could make it called display OS or whatever.

01:09:28   But right now, it's the exact same build number,

01:09:30   and it's probably the same OS, and maybe that will diverge.

01:09:32   Yeah.

01:09:32   There's another weird side effect of that, too.

01:09:34   somebody wrote in to point out of like,

01:09:36   and sorry, I can't pull it up right now,

01:09:37   so sorry, sorry, I forgot the name,

01:09:38   but somebody wrote in to say like,

01:09:40   because it's based on iOS right now,

01:09:42   and because it has an A13 in it,

01:09:44   when iOS stops supporting the A13,

01:09:47   will this monitor not be able

01:09:49   to get software updates anymore?

01:09:51   - Yeah, I mean, that's where they could just keep

01:09:53   putting updates out only for the monitor.

01:09:55   Like Apple controls this whole stack,

01:09:56   they can do whatever they want,

01:09:57   but I feel like right now it's kind of in the sweet spot,

01:10:00   and when the A13 is no longer supported,

01:10:03   Apple still has the source code to whatever the last OS that

01:10:06   works with that is.

01:10:08   I mean, you're hoping with the monitor

01:10:10   that it's not going to need so many updates after everything

01:10:14   works in a satisfactory way.

01:10:15   It just needs-- then it can just basically never change

01:10:17   unless there's some kind of security problem.

01:10:19   I'm still kind of hoping someone will like jailbreak this

01:10:21   and run Mac OS on it or whatever.

01:10:23   But so far, that hasn't happened.

01:10:25   One thing I'll add to the list of things

01:10:27   like Casey was saying, if you like x,

01:10:29   then you should buy this monitor.

01:10:31   If you value something that's over engineered,

01:10:33   we just talked about it before,

01:10:35   if you watch that tear down video and I fix it,

01:10:37   and you see what the inside of this looks like,

01:10:39   and you see how sort of overbuilt it is

01:10:41   and how ridiculous it is inside there

01:10:43   and that appeals to you,

01:10:44   this is a product you might like

01:10:46   'cause Apple makes a bunch of products

01:10:47   that appeal to people who like that type of thing.

01:10:49   Now, I like that type of thing

01:10:51   both because I get a kick out of it,

01:10:53   but also because in theory that means like,

01:10:56   oh, maybe it's more reliable because they use expensive,

01:10:58   you know, they buy expensive components

01:11:00   Like in, again, in theory, the giant fans

01:11:03   that are inside my Mac Pro are expensive fans.

01:11:06   I mean, not super expensive,

01:11:08   but like they're not like the cheapest fan

01:11:10   that they could get of that diameter, right?

01:11:12   You know, and same thing goes for everything in there.

01:11:14   The screws, the little metal posts,

01:11:16   all the little pieces they got,

01:11:17   like everything in there is over engineered.

01:11:21   It's spec to be better quality

01:11:23   than it technically needs to be to get the job done.

01:11:26   And what you're hoping is that all of that together

01:11:29   makes for a more reliable product over the long term.

01:11:34   Not always true.

01:11:35   Software can destroy any--

01:11:36   I'm sure the hardware people love this,

01:11:37   but bad software can destroy any product.

01:11:39   Like if there's some kind of weird software bug,

01:11:40   or a driver issue, or whatever, it doesn't matter

01:11:42   how beautifully engineered the hardware is.

01:11:44   And you can over engineer stuff and still have a fatal flaw,

01:11:46   like the butterfly keyboard.

01:11:48   Or the butterfly keyboard's probably over engineered as well.

01:11:50   It was just a bad idea, and had a problem that apparently

01:11:54   didn't appear until it got into people's hands

01:11:56   and people started eating potato chips over it,

01:11:59   or whatever.

01:12:01   So it seems like so far the studio display

01:12:04   mostly is getting the benefits of being over engineered.

01:12:07   Casey likes it, it makes him happy.

01:12:09   It's a nice product, it's very solid.

01:12:11   It seems to work reliably with Apple stuff for now.

01:12:15   But the camera's a little wonky.

01:12:16   But even the over engineered part of that is like,

01:12:18   oh well it's running a version of iOS on an A13.

01:12:21   We have some hope that that could be corrected

01:12:22   because it's not like they just built in a bunch of hardware

01:12:25   that does one thing inside there.

01:12:26   It is a general purpose little computer and it has an OS

01:12:29   and that OS in theory can be patched

01:12:30   to do a better job of that.

01:12:32   And the final thing I'll add about center stage,

01:12:34   I've seen a bunch of videos of people complaining

01:12:36   about sort of lazy cameraman in center stage,

01:12:38   like, oh, I moved my head out of the way

01:12:41   and the camera follows me, but then I move it back,

01:12:42   it doesn't follow back.

01:12:44   That also strikes me as a sort of a difficult to tune thing.

01:12:49   Like, I think of like things that are being tuned

01:12:50   like in games or even like software inside a car,

01:12:55   so that sort of control system.

01:12:57   The other extreme would be that it tracks you

01:13:00   like as fast as it possibly can, which it could do,

01:13:03   'cause it knows exactly where your eyeballs are,

01:13:05   where your face is, like probably multiple times a second,

01:13:08   but for the same reason you don't do that type of thing

01:13:11   in a game, you wouldn't want to do it on the monitor,

01:13:13   it would be twitchy.

01:13:14   It would be like every time you move,

01:13:15   the camera would move and it would just be like hyperactive

01:13:18   and if for a second it lost track of your eyes,

01:13:20   it would jump to another position

01:13:21   and jump back in your eyes and jump, jump, jump,

01:13:22   just, the other extreme is super slow, right?

01:13:26   So you've got to find the happy medium there

01:13:29   and everyone has a different opinion

01:13:30   of what that medium should be.

01:13:32   As soon as you notice that you've moved back

01:13:34   and the camera doesn't, you're like,

01:13:35   oh, the camera's too slow.

01:13:37   But if you notice that it's being twitchy,

01:13:39   like you just moved your head a millimeter

01:13:41   and the camera moved and it's making people motion sick,

01:13:43   you don't like that either, right?

01:13:44   So what you want it to do is don't react too much

01:13:47   if I do a little bit of motion,

01:13:48   but eventually notice if I've made a net change in position

01:13:52   and it seems like I'm gonna stay there.

01:13:53   So you kind of want it to read your mind.

01:13:54   Am I leaning over daily glass of water,

01:13:56   or am I shifting in my seat,

01:13:58   and this is gonna be my new position?

01:14:00   And the only way to tell it is to wait some amount of time

01:14:02   and say, like I think if you were the programmer

01:14:04   trying to code this up or whatever,

01:14:06   how long should I wait after a move

01:14:09   to decide that the person has actually repositioned

01:14:12   and I should move the camera,

01:14:13   or should I wait a little bit longer

01:14:14   to see if they move back

01:14:15   'cause they were just shifting a little bit?

01:14:17   And it's not easy to tune that.

01:14:19   It's kind of difficult to,

01:14:21   it's just a bunch of different parameters,

01:14:23   I'm sure to whatever model they're using to do that.

01:14:26   But no matter how you tune it,

01:14:29   once it gets out into the real world,

01:14:31   someone somewhere is gonna think

01:14:32   it's either too fast or too slow.

01:14:33   They seem to have errored on the side of being too slow

01:14:35   'cause I think too fast would look like more of a bug

01:14:39   than too slow.

01:14:40   The slow will eventually catch up with you

01:14:42   and it seems like, oh, maybe it's like it's a slow computer.

01:14:44   Is that smart enough to go?

01:14:46   No, that's a deliberate choice.

01:14:48   Maybe they've made the choice to be slightly too slow,

01:14:49   but too slow is probably better than too fast.

01:14:51   So I kind of feel for the team that is tuning this at Apple

01:14:54   because there's almost no way to tune this

01:14:57   to the point where everyone who uses it is happy.

01:14:59   That's their task, that's what they have to try to do.

01:15:01   Find out the one that will make the most people happy

01:15:03   and it seems like they missed on that.

01:15:05   But honestly, I do wonder with the next revision

01:15:07   if they're gonna like overcorrect and make it twitchy,

01:15:10   but we'll see.

01:15:11   - In wildly unrelated news, your setup has changed

01:15:14   and I owe you a little bit of an apology.

01:15:17   We were talking, was it on the show

01:15:18   that we were talking about this?

01:15:19   It was, wasn't it?

01:15:20   that you wanted to rewire a portion of your house

01:15:24   so you can have a smart thermostat

01:15:26   and you didn't have a common wire where the thermostat was,

01:15:29   but you sent a picture to Marco and I amongst others

01:15:32   saying you have successfully installed a new smart thermostat

01:15:35   which means your wiring project has succeeded.

01:15:37   I am very proud of you, Jon.

01:15:38   I'm sorry for doubting you.

01:15:40   Tell me about this new thermostat of yours.

01:15:42   - Yeah, I'm gonna reiterate the strategy

01:15:44   of if you're going to change something

01:15:47   about the thermostat in your house,

01:15:49   don't do it in the middle of winter.

01:15:51   Don't do it at a time where as soon as you start the project,

01:15:54   the clock is ticking until your pipes freeze.

01:15:56   So I waited until springtime, basically,

01:15:58   to do this because I figured, look, if I screw it up

01:16:01   and I just don't have any heat in my house

01:16:03   because I just totally screwed it up to the point

01:16:06   where I can't even put back the old thermostat,

01:16:08   I can call someone and they can come and fix it

01:16:10   and we're not gonna freeze to death in our house, right?

01:16:12   So that was, yeah.

01:16:13   - I love, just for reference, this morning,

01:16:15   for my morning dog walk, it was 40 degrees.

01:16:19   Like, it's still pretty cold.

01:16:21   You're not going to freeze-- your pipes aren't

01:16:23   going to burst at 40 degrees.

01:16:24   And we have actually insulation in our house now,

01:16:26   so we can maintain temperature over just the sun coming

01:16:30   through the windows during the day.

01:16:32   Heat is not really a factor around here anymore.

01:16:35   So I figured it was a reasonable time to do it.

01:16:38   And so the one I ended up getting--

01:16:40   we'll put a link in the show notes--

01:16:41   I got the Ecobee.

01:16:44   Their product naming is worse than Apple's.

01:16:45   They used to have a bunch of products called--

01:16:48   I think we just call it EcoBee Smart Thermostat

01:16:50   and they put a number on it and they got up to four

01:16:52   and then they thought better of it.

01:16:54   And so now the new top of the line one is called the,

01:16:58   what is it called?

01:16:58   EcoBee Smart Thermostat with Voice Control,

01:17:01   which you have to just understand,

01:17:02   is that better than the four?

01:17:03   Is it worse than the four?

01:17:04   Is it better than the three?

01:17:05   Is three better than the, that's just,

01:17:08   EcoBee kind of screwed it up.

01:17:09   But anyway, as far as I can tell,

01:17:10   based on the price and the newness of this,

01:17:12   this is the fanciest one they make.

01:17:15   And it's not even that fancy.

01:17:16   It's not that expensive.

01:17:18   It was introduced many years ago, so it's not even that new.

01:17:21   I picked it mostly because I didn't want one

01:17:23   that was particularly smart.

01:17:25   All I really wanted was to be able to control

01:17:27   the temperature of my house from my phone, right?

01:17:29   So like if you're away for a while,

01:17:30   or if you're coming home on a car ride from a long journey,

01:17:32   you can turn the heat on so it'll be warm

01:17:34   when you get there.

01:17:36   - I can tell you from experience,

01:17:37   that is 99% of the value of smart thermostats.

01:17:40   Like you really don't need more than that.

01:17:42   That alone is the best way to use smart thermostats.

01:17:44   turn off all of the automatic prediction features

01:17:48   that you'll just be fighting with them forever,

01:17:50   like just a thermostat that you can program

01:17:53   on a schedule if you want to,

01:17:54   and that you can remotely control from anywhere,

01:17:56   that's what you want.

01:17:58   - Yeah, and Ecobee had a good reputation

01:17:59   as being kind of that back when Nest was,

01:18:02   kind of all the rage that Ecobee was like,

01:18:03   we don't really do that,

01:18:05   we are just a computer-controlled thermostat

01:18:07   with a schedule.

01:18:08   Since then, Ecobee has added a bunch of features

01:18:11   to be smarter.

01:18:12   Obviously, they've added voice control,

01:18:13   It's right in the name of this thing,

01:18:15   so it supports Amazon voice assistant

01:18:17   and Apple's voice assistant,

01:18:18   whose names I'm not going to say.

01:18:20   It doesn't support the Google one.

01:18:24   And it does have some smart features,

01:18:26   but all of that stuff, including the voice stuff,

01:18:29   you can just flat turn off, right?

01:18:31   So there is a schedule.

01:18:32   You put heat comes on at this temperature,

01:18:34   it's a straight up schedule.

01:18:36   What time, what temperature, until what time,

01:18:38   then what other temperature, so on and so forth.

01:18:40   On top of that, it layers some mild smarts

01:18:43   where it tries to tell if the house is occupied

01:18:46   based on motion sensors that are in the thermostat.

01:18:49   And if it doesn't see anyone walk by the thermostat

01:18:52   or any of its other remote sensors,

01:18:53   which we'll talk about in a little bit,

01:18:55   it can decide, well, even though I'm supposed to be

01:18:57   keeping the house at whatever temperature,

01:18:59   it looks like no one's home right now,

01:19:01   so I'm going to turn the temperature down.

01:19:02   And it's very cautious.

01:19:03   So getting back to the center stage camera thing,

01:19:06   it needs to not sense the motion for two hours

01:19:08   before it will make this decision.

01:19:10   And again, you can turn off that feature

01:19:12   if you don't want it.

01:19:13   wanted to do that and you just wanted to stick to a schedule, you can turn that off as well.

01:19:16   Alright, so anyway, that's how I ended up picking this product.

01:19:18   It is a smart thermostat with reasonably good app support and support for at least two of

01:19:23   the ecosystems that are in my home thing.

01:19:25   It supports HomeKit, you know, it supports the Amazon stuff or whatever.

01:19:30   And the little remote thingamabob-erous sensors that it has, they're kind of neat.

01:19:35   Part of the problem with our ancient house, like, it's basically one big zone, you know,

01:19:41   It's a house from the 30s, right?

01:19:42   It does not have separate zones for like the bedrooms

01:19:45   or upstairs or downstairs, anything like that.

01:19:46   It's just one big zone.

01:19:48   And the thermostat is in a single place in the house.

01:19:51   And that's where the little temperature sensor is.

01:19:54   It says, okay, what temperature is it in the house?

01:19:57   Again, because we're in an old house

01:19:58   and because, you know,

01:19:59   depending on how it's positioned on a lot

01:20:00   and the sun and everything,

01:20:02   there are rooms in the house that are way colder

01:20:04   than the other rooms.

01:20:06   And the one the thermostat is in

01:20:07   is not one of the colder rooms in the house.

01:20:09   So if the thermostat thinks, oh, it's perfectly fine,

01:20:13   in one of the bedrooms, it might be much, much colder.

01:20:15   But if you turn the temperature up there too much,

01:20:18   you know, to make that bedroom comfortable,

01:20:20   then other places will be too hot.

01:20:22   So it comes with these little tiny sensors,

01:20:24   which are very adorable.

01:20:26   They are like power, absolutely better,

01:20:27   like watch batteries or whatever,

01:20:29   those, you know, coin battery type things.

01:20:32   And I think they said they last for a year or whatever,

01:20:34   we'll see how that goes.

01:20:35   But they're completely wireless,

01:20:37   and you know, tiny little coin battery things,

01:20:39   and you stick them, and they're like the size of like a,

01:20:42   you know, a half cent piece on a little pedestal,

01:20:44   stick them wherever you want in the house.

01:20:47   And it's a temperature and motion sensor.

01:20:49   So one, it does like the presence thing of like,

01:20:51   I think it does the presence thing as well to say,

01:20:53   is someone in this room?

01:20:54   And two, it will take the temperature there.

01:20:56   And then it will sort of average all the temperatures

01:20:58   together to come to a reasonable whole house temperature

01:21:01   that it wants things to be.

01:21:03   And like all the other features,

01:21:04   if you don't want to use these sensors, don't use them.

01:21:06   Don't buy them, don't add them to the thing.

01:21:08   The smart thermostat comes with one of these little sensors,

01:21:09   but you can buy more and stick them around the house.

01:21:12   The voice assistant thing, I thought

01:21:14   I was going to turn that off.

01:21:15   Especially since some people said, oh, I don't like it,

01:21:17   because sometimes I try to talk to my phone,

01:21:19   but that thing answers or whatever.

01:21:21   But I think maybe HomeKit's gotten better with that lately.

01:21:25   My thermostat is in my dining room, which is also

01:21:28   where my Google Home is and also where my Amazon voice assistant

01:21:32   thing is.

01:21:33   So now I have one room in the house

01:21:34   where I can ask questions of all three assistants,

01:21:36   and you know how I love to do this.

01:21:37   to pit them against each other at the dinner table

01:21:40   to see who is going to fail more spectacularly at answering

01:21:43   some question that we have.

01:21:44   Hey, Alexa, tell Siri I'm not talking to Google.

01:21:47   Exactly.

01:21:49   Google destroys everybody, just FYI.

01:21:53   It's just so much better.

01:21:55   Because Google Search-- it's not the assistant.

01:21:57   It's because Google Search is so much better at figuring out

01:21:59   what you mean.

01:21:59   Basically, all it's doing is speech to text,

01:22:02   throw into Google Search box.

01:22:04   And the same way you would do in a web page,

01:22:06   That's why Google wins, because it just does that,

01:22:08   and Google search is so amazing.

01:22:10   And of course, Siri is weird and everything.

01:22:12   But anyway, I turned it on to use it with Siri.

01:22:15   It's nice, you can ask it questions,

01:22:16   it'll tell you things.

01:22:17   It's got the display on the front of it,

01:22:20   it's got like a weather display.

01:22:21   And of course, it shows the temperature

01:22:24   and stuff like that.

01:22:26   This is one of the areas where I would have paid more

01:22:28   for fancier technology,

01:22:29   but there's obviously not a market for it.

01:22:30   If you look at the Ecobee,

01:22:31   it just kind of looks like a black squircle.

01:22:35   It's a black rounded square thing.

01:22:38   It's not particularly attractive, but like whatever.

01:22:40   And the aesthetic is like, it's like the old Apple Watch

01:22:42   where it's all black, but then some portion of it

01:22:44   is the screen, and the screen is a black background

01:22:47   with white lettering on it, but it's an LCD,

01:22:50   and it's not mini LED, right?

01:22:53   So the backlight is not entirely black,

01:22:55   especially as the lights get dimmer, right?

01:22:58   And it doesn't have an ambient light sensor in it,

01:23:00   so you have to kind of pick the backlight level that hides,

01:23:03   It doesn't make it look like a gray rectangle where the screen is, right?

01:23:07   But also isn't too dim to see in the daylight.

01:23:11   Obviously if they used OLED maybe they'd have burn-in issues or whatever, but it would be

01:23:14   a little bit fancier if they had used mini LED backlight or OLED or micro LED or some

01:23:20   other ridiculously expensive technology just to preserve the aesthetic like the Apple Watch

01:23:24   now does.

01:23:26   But they didn't.

01:23:27   So yeah, I'm mostly happy with it.

01:23:29   It does what it's supposed to do.

01:23:30   I sort of told the story in reverse here.

01:23:32   I guess I should get to the installation part of it,

01:23:34   which might have been exciting

01:23:36   if I had destroyed everything,

01:23:37   but I had a couple of strokes of luck.

01:23:40   I will say for the instructions for installing these,

01:23:43   all of these, every company that sells one of these things,

01:23:45   like they know that installation is the biggest hurdle

01:23:48   to getting you to buy one of these,

01:23:49   because you're like, oh, if I buy one of these,

01:23:50   like how does it work?

01:23:51   I don't know how thermostats work.

01:23:52   I don't even know how mine work.

01:23:53   It's just on the wall.

01:23:54   I don't want to mess anything up.

01:23:56   They all have extensive tutorials and instructions

01:24:01   with immediate branching paths to say,

01:24:03   "Hey, if you don't wanna do this, hire a pro,

01:24:05   "find an expert in your area.

01:24:07   "Just pay someone to do it or whatever,

01:24:09   "but if you wanna do it yourself,

01:24:10   "we'll have tons of instructions."

01:24:11   It comes with instructions,

01:24:13   there's instructions on the web,

01:24:14   there's instructions in the app,

01:24:15   there's a million videos on how to do it.

01:24:18   You could be hesitant where it's like,

01:24:19   "Which product did you buy?

01:24:21   "What does your thermostat look like

01:24:23   "when you pull it out of the wall?

01:24:24   "Which ones do you see?

01:24:25   Do you see a thing that looks like this?

01:24:26   Do you see a thing that looks like that?

01:24:27   Sort of like a wizard type thing

01:24:29   where they just interview you or take a survey and say,

01:24:32   okay, you've described what you've seen

01:24:34   and you've described what you bought,

01:24:35   so here's what you should do.

01:24:36   And it's a step-by-step, step one, label all your wires,

01:24:39   step two, disconnect them and put them, you know.

01:24:41   It's so good about telling you what to do.

01:24:44   But of course, it's trying to be step-by-step instructions

01:24:49   based on what it thinks you'll find in your home.

01:24:52   And the thing I find in my home in the tutorial they give

01:24:55   and all the tutorials is like,

01:24:57   okay, look behind your thermostat, what do you see?

01:24:58   Okay, I see X, I see Y, I see Z.

01:25:00   And then you hit the next step and it says,

01:25:02   sorry, you cannot use our products.

01:25:03   (laughing)

01:25:05   Like you flat out can't use it.

01:25:06   You need to get, in case you mentioned before,

01:25:08   a C wire installed.

01:25:10   And you probably don't know what a C wire is,

01:25:11   but I'm just telling you,

01:25:12   there are no instructions for you.

01:25:14   You don't even have the thing.

01:25:15   You need to call somebody and get a C wire installed.

01:25:18   And they do have a product that comes with this even

01:25:21   that says, hey, if you wanna install a C wire,

01:25:23   that's a whole separate set of instructions.

01:25:25   And by the way, in the box,

01:25:26   you'll find this little octopus of wires

01:25:28   that if you can figure out how to install

01:25:30   this octopus of wires onto your furnace or whatever,

01:25:34   it will give you a C wire.

01:25:35   And we'll try to explain to you how to do that,

01:25:37   but we'll give you lots of dire warnings about like,

01:25:39   you should probably let somebody else do this.

01:25:40   Like, you know, they also have a thing of like,

01:25:43   oh, and if you don't wanna do that,

01:25:44   what if you just, you know, we give you an AC adapter

01:25:46   and you can just plug it into a wall plug,

01:25:47   but who wants a wire running from like a wall adapter?

01:25:50   You don't want that wire running to your thermostat

01:25:53   on the wall.

01:25:54   And it's like, well, you could run that inside the wall,

01:25:56   but that wire is not rated inside the wall.

01:25:58   It gets real complicated real quick.

01:25:59   They're basically saying, if you don't have a C wire,

01:26:01   you need to get one.

01:26:02   And there are lots of different ways to get them,

01:26:03   and they're all complicated, and they're not that great.

01:26:06   So that was the problem I was facing.

01:26:08   That's why I was like, I'll just run myself a new cable.

01:26:10   And I knew I was gonna be on my own on that.

01:26:12   I pulled up, this is the magic of the internet.

01:26:14   You can find the PDF specifications

01:26:16   for everything in your house, no matter how old it is.

01:26:18   You just gotta find the serial number, the model number,

01:26:20   to make, hope the company is still in business.

01:26:23   And I found all the wiring diagrams for my furnace, for the box that it's connected to,

01:26:29   and I found the right cable to get, and I found where it was routed and did all the

01:26:33   stuff, I was all ready to go.

01:26:34   I was like, "I think I know how I'm going to run all this stuff."

01:26:38   My furnace has an external breakout box where all the relays and everything are.

01:26:42   It's by the TACO brand, T-A-C-O.

01:26:44   It's a common brand of this type of switch, and I found the exact model and saw the diagram,

01:26:47   and I'm like this is exactly where the C wire will go and this will go there and this will go there and I'll

01:26:51   It's gonna be great

01:26:53   But then when I took the old thing off the wall

01:26:56   I had taken off the wall forward to look at what wires I had to determine that I didn't have a C wire

01:27:00   But now when I'm doing the actual project

01:27:01   I took everything off like unscrew the the thermostat and also the thing that was mounted to like the little plate that it was on

01:27:07   And when I removed everything and so like the hole in the wall and started digging around on the home the wall to try to pull

01:27:12   out these

01:27:14   disgusting fabric colored

01:27:16   fabric covered non colored wires

01:27:18   from inside my walls

01:27:21   What I found buried inside the wall when I was rooting around in there was another wire

01:27:25   whoa a

01:27:28   Modern wire because I could tell because I had just bought thermostat wire when you buy thermostat wire

01:27:32   The one I bought comes in a brown

01:27:34   rubber sleeve like the insulation is brown which is not a color you usually expect to see like kind of dark brown, right and

01:27:41   You can buy thermostat wire you can buy it's like 18 3 and 18 5 it's how many conductors are inside it

01:27:46   This I think was if there's such a thing as 18 2 I think 18 is the gauge or whatever anyway

01:27:52   There were two conductors inside it. So it's a brown thermostat wire with two conductors buried in the wall

01:27:57   So I pulled it out of the wall. I'm like, what the hell what am I gonna do?

01:28:01   I see wire just for people to know is one wire that goes to the quote-unquote common terminal on your you know

01:28:07   furnace thingamabob, right

01:28:10   But I'm like, well, I know this isn't coming from my

01:28:12   Furnace thingamabobber thing because I know there's only two wires coming out of it. I can see them

01:28:17   They follow them and like there's only it's only two conductors. That's the ancient disgusting wire. That's probably as old as my house, right?

01:28:22   So where does this black wire the the brown wire go?

01:28:26   so I followed the brown wire down through the wall for the basement and

01:28:30   Maybe the people who installed the our furnace like in like a 2002 or 2004 whenever we got our furnace redone

01:28:39   Maybe they did this but coming out of

01:28:42   My what is it called the circuit breaker box? What is that thing called the fuse the fuse box?

01:28:48   It's not fuses. It's called the circuit breaker or the panel, you know

01:28:51   Yeah, there's a word for anyway

01:28:53   The thing that has all the circuit breakers in it right the panel coming out of that was a you know

01:28:58   there's a bunch of metal tubes coming out of it that contain wires or one of the one metal tube was coming out of it and

01:29:03   It led to a box

01:29:07   That had you know like a junction box and then stuck on the top of the junction box was what looks like a transformer type

01:29:13   thing

01:29:15   With two conductors coming off of it and those are the two conductors that go into that brown wire

01:29:21   And I was like what the hell is this? It's just coming out of my

01:29:25   Coming out of my circuit breaker someone's saying it's a doorbell wire

01:29:29   I wasn't going to the doorbell it only went it went from there

01:29:32   directly to the inside of the wall near my thermostat and that little transformer thing is 24 volts

01:29:38   This is the thing I hadn't purchased as part of this project

01:29:40   Which I should have had ages ago

01:29:42   But didn't was the multimeter multimeters are very handy to have

01:29:44   Because I was just constantly going around probing everything. I was the voltage between this and this was the voltage in that

01:29:49   Anyway, 24 volts AC

01:29:52   Coming right off the thing. So basically coming out of my the circuit breaker box thing

01:29:56   What the hell is that called someone in the chat room get her because I don't want to call the circuit breaker box thing

01:30:00   It's annoying me that I don't know.

01:30:01   - Your electrical panel.

01:30:03   - Yeah, I know, but I'm blanking on it.

01:30:05   - That's what every electrician calls it.

01:30:08   - Breaker box, whatever.

01:30:10   - The panel.

01:30:11   - Coming out of there was a dedicated metal tube

01:30:15   that went to a junction box that had a transformer

01:30:17   that was giving me 24 volts AC.

01:30:19   And for people who don't know, the common wire,

01:30:21   and the thing that these, the ecobee smart thermostat

01:30:23   and all these smart thermostats want,

01:30:24   they want 24 volts AC.

01:30:26   Like that's how they function.

01:30:28   That's what they want from the common wire.

01:30:29   but the common wire is supposed to just be one conductor.

01:30:31   And let me tell you, none of the instructions

01:30:34   you'll ever find for a smart thermostat tell you,

01:30:37   by the way, if you have two random-ass wires

01:30:39   with 24 volts AC on them,

01:30:41   here's how to hook up our smart thermostat.

01:30:44   'Cause they totally expect for you to have,

01:30:46   from your furnace, the wires with all these different names

01:30:49   that do different things, and also the common wire.

01:30:52   That's what, and the common wire is one wire.

01:30:55   It's just the, you know, another wire

01:30:57   is like the hot wire for that.

01:30:59   That's like the neutral versus hot wire, right?

01:31:02   But all the instructions are like,

01:31:03   I don't have one common wire.

01:31:05   I have two, and they have the voltage we need.

01:31:09   How am I supposed to hook them up?

01:31:10   So the instructions were 100% useless to me.

01:31:13   I tried following the instructions to being like,

01:31:15   I mean, even though I was avoiding everything I know

01:31:17   about electricity, and saying, I don't know,

01:31:20   what if I just pretend, what if I just pretend

01:31:22   that the common wire from that 24 volt terminal down there

01:31:27   is the common wire for the thing?

01:31:28   but that doesn't work, it's not even a complete circuit.

01:31:30   So that's, if you do it the way they say,

01:31:33   and say, I'm gonna label this the C wire,

01:31:34   and now I'll just hook everything up the way it tells me,

01:31:36   nothing works, like, you know,

01:31:38   it's not a complete circuit, right?

01:31:39   The second thing is, in regular thermostats,

01:31:44   in most regular thermostats,

01:31:45   there's some way to do a jumper,

01:31:47   people who do stuff on PCs know what this is,

01:31:50   basically take two pins and sort of short them out

01:31:52   to each other to connect them so they conduct,

01:31:54   where you can say, okay, well, the wire,

01:31:58   Wire A and wire B, I'm gonna put a jumper

01:32:00   between terminals A and B.

01:32:01   So A and B, that's the same wire.

01:32:03   Like they're just connected to each other.

01:32:06   The ecobee at least had no way to do that.

01:32:08   Every one of the little places

01:32:09   where you're supposed to put a wire,

01:32:10   the C wire, the W wire, the RH wire, whatever,

01:32:14   there was just one hole.

01:32:16   You couldn't put more than one wire,

01:32:17   that one very small hole.

01:32:19   You couldn't even jam two of them in there

01:32:20   if you like twisted them together or whatever.

01:32:22   But I was pretty sure based on nothing

01:32:24   because the instructions were all useless to me

01:32:26   that the only way I could get this to work

01:32:27   was I needed to basically connect both of the wires

01:32:30   from the 24 volt thing to make a complete circuit.

01:32:33   One of them being the common wire

01:32:34   and the second one being basically the RH wire.

01:32:36   But I already had an actual RH wire from the furnace.

01:32:40   So I had to sort of connect the hot wire

01:32:45   from the 24 volt thing to the RH wire

01:32:49   and then put the now fused RH and hot wire

01:32:54   into the RH terminal and that finally worked.

01:32:57   - I cannot believe you did this.

01:32:59   I would have had no confidence that this would work.

01:33:02   I would have bailed immediately.

01:33:03   - I tried a whole bunch of different combinations

01:33:05   'cause I was like, well, they must account for this.

01:33:08   There must be a way to do it, but it's basically,

01:33:10   because my old thermostat, there was a jumper

01:33:13   between two things or whatever,

01:33:14   but there was just no way to get more than one wire in there.

01:33:17   I'm like, well, and to answer people's question,

01:33:19   no, I didn't solder it.

01:33:20   I probably should have soldered it,

01:33:21   but I was trying so many combinations

01:33:24   that I had just sort of like, you know,

01:33:26   sort of wire nutted essentially

01:33:28   the two conductors I needed together and put it on.

01:33:31   And this was like, try 857, right?

01:33:33   So I was taking it off, put it on, take it off,

01:33:35   put it on, take it off, put it on, take it off, put it on.

01:33:38   When it worked, I thought to myself,

01:33:40   you should really take that off one more time

01:33:42   and solder it together.

01:33:43   And I said, you know what?

01:33:44   I've had enough of this project, it's working.

01:33:47   And it's, you know, I don't think it's gonna catch on fire.

01:33:52   And if a wire nut is good enough

01:33:53   for other kinds of connections.

01:33:54   I don't think I need to make this into a soldering project.

01:33:57   And so I just didn't take it back off.

01:34:00   - I love the, I don't think this is going to catch on fire.

01:34:03   - Right? - I don't think

01:34:04   it's gonna catch on fire.

01:34:04   It's 24 volts, it's nothing.

01:34:06   It's fine. (laughing)

01:34:08   It's well connected.

01:34:10   I did a good job.

01:34:11   It's not like I, you know,

01:34:13   it's not like it's just loosely touching

01:34:15   and arcing or something like that.

01:34:17   It's fine.

01:34:18   So, and this is so dumb because like,

01:34:22   what do I have in my house to control the temperature?

01:34:24   I have an on/off switch for a heater

01:34:26   that is either 100% on or 100% off, that's it.

01:34:29   I have no cooling of any kind,

01:34:31   I don't have air conditioning, I don't have fans,

01:34:34   I don't have hot air, I don't have filters,

01:34:36   I don't have humidifiers,

01:34:37   I don't have air-to-air or heat exchangers,

01:34:39   I just have literally a button that says,

01:34:41   make house hot now and stop, right?

01:34:43   (laughing)

01:34:44   That is all I have, is 100% on or 100% off, that's it.

01:34:48   So this is the simplest possible scenario,

01:34:50   And even that, because I have those two random wires

01:34:53   coming off of the breaker box thing,

01:34:55   it ended up being completely beyond the instructions.

01:34:59   The instructions wanna tell you,

01:35:01   we're not gonna tell you,

01:35:02   we're not gonna show you a circuit diagram ever.

01:35:04   We're just gonna say, you homeowner, just do what we say.

01:35:07   Do you have wires with these labels?

01:35:08   Then do this.

01:35:09   And it's like, but I have a different situation

01:35:11   that you haven't foreseen.

01:35:12   So I need to see a circuit diagram.

01:35:13   And I had to basically guess,

01:35:15   look, I know this is just basically saying this probably

01:35:18   in the parlance of people who think about DC,

01:35:20   a plus and a minus, a hot and a neutral,

01:35:22   and then one other thing that can,

01:35:24   the Ecobee thermostat just basically controls,

01:35:28   should there be power going to the thing

01:35:29   that tells the heater to turn on or not,

01:35:31   and it trips a relay, right?

01:35:33   I knew it had to be simple, I just,

01:35:36   I spent a long time banging my head against the thing,

01:35:38   surely they don't need me to fuse two wires together

01:35:41   and stick them into one of these wire holes.

01:35:43   There must be some way to do it otherwise,

01:35:44   and as far as I could tell, there was not.

01:35:45   So it was a little bit of an adventure

01:35:48   and a little bit frustrating,

01:35:50   but I was pretty determined not to give up on it

01:35:53   and I was glad I could find it.

01:35:54   - Apparently.

01:35:54   - I mean, the worst case scenario,

01:35:56   I could have just run the new wire

01:35:57   'cause I do know where the new wire would go,

01:35:58   the five conductor wire.

01:36:00   There is a 24 volt AC, you know,

01:36:02   common wire terminal inside the taco connector box

01:36:05   right next to everything else

01:36:06   and it would have just been fine,

01:36:07   but I was glad that I didn't have to do that.

01:36:09   - I love that you have something called

01:36:10   a taco connector box.

01:36:12   - Yeah, taco.

01:36:13   - I want a taco connection box in my house somewhere now.

01:36:15   - You might have one.

01:36:16   It's kind of a teal box thing with a bunch of relays in it

01:36:21   and a bunch of transformers.

01:36:23   Sure.

01:36:24   So Ecobee, my suggestion to you is maybe say, look,

01:36:28   do you know what a circuit diagram looks like?

01:36:30   Here's what you're trying to accomplish.

01:36:32   And maybe you have some other way to accomplish it.

01:36:34   If so, feel free to do that.

01:36:35   Because all the wires inside here have names.

01:36:39   They're like W1, W2, G, Y, RH, RC.

01:36:44   Some of them make some sense.

01:36:45   RH is supposed to be for heat and RC is for cooling,

01:36:48   but the W is the G is not ground, don't,

01:36:50   you know what I'm confused with that.

01:36:52   There's a Y and of course the C for the common,

01:36:56   it's like I know there's probably lots of history

01:36:58   behind what these things are called,

01:36:59   but like for my simple scenario,

01:37:01   I just need to know, show me the circuit,

01:37:03   show me where the electricity flows

01:37:04   and which thing is the switch and I'll figure it out.

01:37:07   - Yeah, these things were not designed

01:37:09   by people for good interfaces.

01:37:11   - I feel bad for the,

01:37:13   I guess people do this for a living,

01:37:14   it's all second nature, but if you have a complicated scenario remembering which one is Y and which one is G and you know

01:37:19   and the RH and the RC in different zones and just all the different variety of equipment that you can have because my taco box thing

01:37:25   also has like

01:37:26   You know zone priority and this that like I have like this four zone thing

01:37:30   It's down in my house like my house only has one zone

01:37:34   So this is like of all the different relays that are arrayed

01:37:36   Maybe this is the smallest taco box that you got or maybe they just charge me for a fancy one

01:37:39   who knows, just two little wires.

01:37:41   It's not entirely true.

01:37:42   The room I'm in now is zone two.

01:37:44   Zone two is my computer room.

01:37:46   And it is its own zone with its own non-smart thermostat

01:37:50   and is literally for this one single room.

01:37:53   - So getting back to the thermostat itself,

01:37:55   do you like, so, 'cause I've had ecobees in my house now

01:37:59   for about, I think about a year is when I tore

01:38:02   out all my nests in Rage and replaced them all with these.

01:38:06   Did you have any issues getting them onto HomeKit?

01:38:09   - Let's see, so when I added it to HomeKit,

01:38:12   it threw up the QR code and I just scanned it with my phone.

01:38:17   And then in the home app,

01:38:19   it threw up a thing in front of me and it said,

01:38:20   "Please name these three things."

01:38:22   I was like, "Oh, all right."

01:38:24   And it said thermostat, thermostat one, thermostat two.

01:38:27   And I was like, "What?

01:38:28   I just installed one thermostat.

01:38:30   Is it, I think I installed two."

01:38:31   So I deleted the name off thermostat two and thermostat three

01:38:34   and just changed thermostat one to be called thermostat

01:38:36   and I tried to proceed and it said,

01:38:38   nope, sorry, you gotta pick a name for these three things.

01:38:40   And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about,

01:38:41   go away, and I just canceled it, right?

01:38:44   And then I, but then I looked at the home app on my phone

01:38:46   and saw that it thinks now I have a thermostat or something

01:38:49   and so I deleted the device from HomeKit.

01:38:51   I think every time I go and do anything with HomeKit

01:38:53   it involves deleting the device at least once.

01:38:54   So I deleted the device once

01:38:56   and then I edited it a second time

01:38:58   and it did the exact same thing

01:38:59   and what I figured out based on the icons

01:39:02   and nothing else 'cause the home app was terrible

01:39:04   was that one device is a thermostat,

01:39:07   one device is a motion sensor,

01:39:10   and one device is a heat sensor or something like that.

01:39:14   - That's probably for automation.

01:39:15   So when you can automate,

01:39:16   oh, when it detects motion and such and such,

01:39:18   or when it detects the temperature of blah, blah, blah,

01:39:21   then do this.

01:39:23   - Yeah, but it was confusing because the icons,

01:39:25   I was like, I can imagine there being a thermostat

01:39:27   and an IR sensor, but is like one detects motion,

01:39:32   but doesn't it detect motion?

01:39:33   Isn't that the IR sensor as well?

01:39:34   I don't understand.

01:39:35   Anyway, once I figured out that it was three different sensors,

01:39:38   I gave them somewhat sensible names based on their icons,

01:39:41   and then it added them to HomeKit.

01:39:42   And after that, yeah, it seems to work fine.

01:39:44   It's in HomeKit.

01:39:45   I don't do anything within HomeKit.

01:39:47   I use the Ecobee app if I ever need to mess with the schedules.

01:39:50   But I could, to Casey's point, do automations in the Home app

01:39:53   if I wanted to based on those new devices that are now there,

01:39:56   and I'm able to do things based on them.

01:39:59   See, what I want is, so I've had some issues.

01:40:04   I haven't had them recently because one thing

01:40:08   I very quickly learned setting these things up

01:40:10   is once you want to control them with HomeKit,

01:40:15   never have their actual app interact with them in any way.

01:40:19   Because they will fight.

01:40:20   And they will fight in weird ways that have weird results.

01:40:22   You know, not just like, all right, you said it's a 68.

01:40:25   You said it's a 65.

01:40:26   Not like that, they'll change each other's modes

01:40:30   in weird ways, it breaks in very strange ways.

01:40:32   And so what I ended up having to do,

01:40:34   'cause I wanna control things primarily with HomeKit,

01:40:37   so what I ended up having to do is turn off

01:40:40   every bit of automation, every bit of scheduling,

01:40:43   programming, automatic modes,

01:40:45   turn off everything in Thermosat app,

01:40:48   and then never open it again.

01:40:50   And then control it exclusively via the Home app in HomeKit.

01:40:54   And once I eventually got it to stop doing literally

01:40:58   everything in its own app, then it

01:41:00   started working again properly and reliably in HomeKit.

01:41:03   But there were a couple of weird snags that I hit.

01:41:05   And what's great-- so I have the aforementioned video camera

01:41:11   situation.

01:41:12   I'm still using the Logitech Circle View cameras, which

01:41:14   are HomeKit Secure Video.

01:41:16   And what's great about HomeKit Secure Video cameras

01:41:19   is that they don't have their own apps.

01:41:22   Like the ones that are purely HomeKit secure video,

01:41:25   they literally don't have apps that can control them.

01:41:27   They can be controlled only via the Home app.

01:41:30   They're made to natively interface with that directly

01:41:33   and that's it.

01:41:34   I wish somebody would make that for thermostats

01:41:37   because the EchoBees, they work eventually

01:41:40   once you get them set up and once you turn off

01:41:41   all the crap in the app and figure out

01:41:43   how to make them stop fighting and figure out

01:41:45   how to add them to HomeKit.

01:41:46   They do eventually work and once it's set up, it's okay.

01:41:51   But I lost hours to this, and it could have been

01:41:54   so much easier if my goal is only to ever control

01:41:57   this via HomeKit.

01:41:59   Someone should make a thermostat that is just

01:42:02   a HomeKit thermostat, and it's designed for that,

01:42:05   and there is no other app, and that's it.

01:42:07   But, you know, and I understand why these companies

01:42:10   don't do that in general.

01:42:12   I mean, frankly, I don't understand why

01:42:15   the thermostat market is so crappy,

01:42:17   because our only options for good Wi-Fi thermostats

01:42:20   seem to be either the Nest thermostats,

01:42:23   which I would say are previously good, but no longer good.

01:42:28   But Nest still has by far the nicest looking

01:42:30   physical designs and the nicest looking hardware.

01:42:33   Or the Ecobee, which is fine design-wise,

01:42:38   but it's not good, it's not like a really nice thermostat.

01:42:42   It's a fine Wi-Fi thermostat. (laughs)

01:42:45   It's ultra fine. (laughs)

01:42:47   It's fine, but it has nothing on the Nest, design-wise.

01:42:52   However, it works.

01:42:54   - If you look at the, this is what I was looking at

01:42:56   before I looked at the IcoBay.

01:42:57   I also looked at the brands you don't think of,

01:42:59   not Honeywell, but the one I had before

01:43:01   was Luxpro or whatever.

01:43:03   These are brands that existed

01:43:04   before smart thermostat existed.

01:43:06   And their thermostats don't look smart.

01:43:08   They look like a beige box with an LCD segment display,

01:43:11   you know, like an old thermostat.

01:43:13   Not as old as the ones with the little metal coils

01:43:16   inside them with the bi-metallic strips and everything,

01:43:18   not that old, but the ones with the mercury switches,

01:43:20   not that old, but the ones right after that.

01:43:22   Ooh, Modern Digital, they take like two AA batteries

01:43:25   and they have a little LCD segmented display

01:43:28   and you program them like you program a VCR, right?

01:43:31   Those companies do make Wi-Fi enabled thermostats.

01:43:36   And I looked at those because I'm like,

01:43:37   look, I just wanna be able to control it through an app,

01:43:40   I should look at some of these as well

01:43:41   and maybe they work with my weird wire setup

01:43:43   because the whole reason you need the common wire

01:43:45   as far as I'm able to tell, is you need to power

01:43:47   the little computer that's inside your thermostat.

01:43:48   - Yes, because without that, there is no complete circuit

01:43:52   to power the thermostat unless the heater AC is on.

01:43:55   - Right, and so, but with these other brands,

01:43:57   they're so low power that you just put two double A's

01:44:00   in there, right, and so I'm thinking, well, are any of those,

01:44:02   are there smart thermostats that I wouldn't need

01:44:05   a common wire for because they're just so, like,

01:44:07   you know, such a tiny, they don't have a big display

01:44:10   to power, they don't have a complicated computer

01:44:13   inside there.

01:44:14   Not if they have Wi-Fi.

01:44:15   Yeah, and I would say Wi-Fi probably kills you

01:44:17   with the battery thing.

01:44:18   But anyway, those companies do make smart thermostats,

01:44:20   but they do not look smart, but some of them have Wi-Fi.

01:44:23   But as far as I can tell, most of those don't know

01:44:25   or care what HomeKit is.

01:44:27   And so that's not a solution to your problem,

01:44:28   but it is a thing to think about

01:44:30   that if you just want a smarter thermostat,

01:44:33   you can get one that's not gonna fight with HomeKit

01:44:35   'cause it doesn't know what HomeKit is, right?

01:44:37   But you'll still might be able to,

01:44:38   you do need a common wire,

01:44:39   but you still might be able to control it with Wi-Fi.

01:44:41   And the other thing that was making me think of is,

01:44:43   I think I talked about this in the past,

01:44:43   show the air quality sensor I got for my basement.

01:44:46   Did I mention that at some point?

01:44:48   - I don't think you might have.

01:44:50   - Anyway, I'll talk about it in a future show.

01:44:52   The one I got has an E Ink display,

01:44:55   which I think is actually a pretty good idea

01:44:57   for a smart thermostat.

01:44:58   - Oh, is it the Eve?

01:45:00   - No, it's like Air Things.

01:45:01   - Oh, okay, I have an Eve one.

01:45:02   Well, sorry, I have two Eve ones

01:45:04   'cause the first one broke really, really early.

01:45:07   - Nice. - That's a whole separate story.

01:45:08   Everything I've gotten from Eve,

01:45:12   Let's just say, I think our friend Merlin

01:45:14   has had better experiences with the products

01:45:15   from this brand than I have.

01:45:17   I have had mostly bad experiences with E Ink products

01:45:21   so far.

01:45:22   I'm sure they're good for somebody.

01:45:26   But yeah, they have not been good for me.

01:45:29   - Yeah, but E Ink, I think, is actually a pretty good

01:45:31   solution for an attractive, smart thermostat,

01:45:34   'cause I don't need fancy graphics or pictures of my kids

01:45:37   on whatever, you know, even though the little weather

01:45:39   display is just line art or whatever,

01:45:40   and it looks really good.

01:45:41   It's a good solution to how do you put something,

01:45:44   a computer display that's in difficult lighting conditions.

01:45:47   The ink is reflective.

01:45:48   You don't need a backlight at all.

01:45:50   You can front light it if you want it

01:45:51   to be visible at night.

01:45:52   And it looks nice on the wall.

01:45:54   If you know, and now all you need to do

01:45:55   is surround that ink display

01:45:56   with a nice looking physical design,

01:45:59   which granted is a challenge for some of these manufacturers.

01:46:01   But I think there's a lot of possibility for smarter,

01:46:05   like what I'm thinking of is what is the next step up?

01:46:07   You have the little metallic strip coil mercury switch,

01:46:11   then you have the little LCD thing,

01:46:13   and then we jump right from that to tiny wifi computer.

01:46:16   Right?

01:46:17   And I feel like there's something in between there,

01:46:18   which is whatever the next step up is

01:46:21   before you get to a full fledged computer,

01:46:23   it still can have wifi,

01:46:25   but could be its own little system.

01:46:27   And then, you know, in your situation,

01:46:28   if you have a house that does not just have

01:46:29   one giant zone essentially,

01:46:31   and you have actually have cooling

01:46:32   and more complicated things to control,

01:46:34   that's where I'd be looking for like the,

01:46:36   the Lutron Caseta of thermostats,

01:46:38   like a whole house solution where you know

01:46:40   it's all gonna work together.

01:46:41   - Does that exist though?

01:46:43   - I don't know, but that's kind of what you're looking for,

01:46:45   it's like I don't need to be on the cutting edge

01:46:47   with my thermostat, I just need it to work in my house

01:46:50   and look nice on the wall, and Lutron does that,

01:46:53   it's like works reliably, works fast, it's a good company,

01:46:56   it's well supported, they can run anything in your house,

01:46:59   and not overly concerned about supporting Google, Amazon,

01:47:02   and Apple's ecosystems to the nth degree or whatever.

01:47:05   But I think what, for me, and yeah, disclosure,

01:47:09   sponsor of Lutron and CETA, but what I love so much

01:47:12   about the CETA system is that it is its own

01:47:16   like local communication protocol in the physical side.

01:47:19   Like it has its own RF protocol so that it's super reliable,

01:47:22   it's way more reliable than Wi-Fi,

01:47:24   it's better than everything reliability-wise,

01:47:26   but it has a little hub that integrates

01:47:29   all of its stuff with HomeKit.

01:47:30   And so I have that rock-solid reliable control

01:47:33   that doesn't require HomeKit to communicate

01:47:36   with themselves and to work,

01:47:38   but I have full control of the system from HomeKit.

01:47:41   And I feel like that's kind of what limits my options here.

01:47:45   But that being said, I don't wanna go back

01:47:48   into the Amazon ecosystem and control everything

01:47:50   via their crappy voice cylinders,

01:47:52   and I don't really trust Google enough,

01:47:54   even though hell to people like you

01:47:56   saying how good their voice system is

01:47:58   definitely has tempted me a few times,

01:48:00   like maybe I should try them because it's so bad.

01:48:02   - They're asking you trivia questions

01:48:03   or what movie somebody was in or something

01:48:06   from their dinner table.

01:48:06   That's what it's good for.

01:48:07   I can't vouch for it as a home control device.

01:48:09   Although I did just today,

01:48:11   I ordered another Nest outdoor cam,

01:48:13   another one of my longstanding products.

01:48:15   So I'll give you an update on that

01:48:16   if I can figure out how to get that installed.

01:48:18   - No, I actually just ordered two more

01:48:21   of the Logitech Circle views

01:48:24   to finally decommission two very old Nest cams I have

01:48:29   just because I've been running them forever.

01:48:31   - Are they actual outdoor cams or the indoor ones

01:48:33   that you're running outside?

01:48:34   - Logitech's TurboView is actually an outdoor cam,

01:48:37   but the power brick for it,

01:48:40   it has a permanently mounted USB cable

01:48:42   that's about maybe two meters long,

01:48:44   and the power brick for it is not outdoor rated.

01:48:47   But you can do things, they sell little boxes,

01:48:49   you can, basically little sealed shoebox kind of things

01:48:53   that just have big rubber gaskets,

01:48:54   and you can put an electrical brick in there

01:48:57   with, plug it into an outdoor extension cable,

01:49:00   seal the whole thing up and then run that extension cable

01:49:02   somewhere else, you know, so you can do something with that.

01:49:03   - Yeah, that's kind of my plan for this thing.

01:49:04   This is an indoor-outdoor camera that Google makes.

01:49:07   It didn't get great reviews,

01:49:09   but I'm kind of desperate at this point.

01:49:10   And I'm going to sort of, they give you a quote-unquote

01:49:13   weatherproof cable, which is just like you said.

01:49:16   It is supposedly weatherproof and the camera can get rained

01:49:18   on, snowed on or whatever, but at the end of it,

01:49:21   it's a plug that goes into an AC outlet

01:49:23   and that's not weatherproof.

01:49:24   So luckily I have a situation where my camera is near

01:49:28   garage and I can go from the little eaves where the camera is or whatever into my garage where

01:49:34   there is an outlet inside my garage that is you know sealed from the weather because it's inside

01:49:39   the garage and that is my current plan we'll see how that works out. All right speaking of breaking

01:49:44   news and this time not about my studio display WWDC has been announced it is as always the first

01:49:51   week of June, and there's not too much to talk about, I don't think, except one little

01:49:58   blurb that was said on the announcement.

01:50:02   So the announcement is, "Join developers worldwide from June 6 through 10 for an inspiring

01:50:06   week of technology and community.

01:50:08   Get a first look at Apple's latest platforms, technologies, and sessions, explore the newest

01:50:11   tools and tips, and connect with Apple experts and labs and digital lounges, all online and

01:50:15   at no cost."

01:50:16   Here's where it gets interesting.

01:50:18   In addition to the online conference, Apple will host a special day for developers and

01:50:22   students at Apple Park on June 6 to watch the keynote and the State of the Union videos

01:50:26   together, along with the online community.

01:50:28   Spaces limited and details on how to apply to attend will be provided soon.

01:50:33   So first of all, Marco, you dodged a bullet in that you turned 40 after WWDC is over,

01:50:38   so you're welcome.

01:50:40   But secondly, this whole thing about people actually being on campus, that was unexpected

01:50:47   in my eyes and I think that's interesting.

01:50:49   I don't plan to apply.

01:50:51   I don't plan to fly to California

01:50:53   just to watch a couple of videos I can watch at home,

01:50:56   but it's interesting.

01:50:58   - Yeah, I mean, I think this makes a lot more sense

01:50:59   for people who live locally, or at least almost locally,

01:51:02   and can drive there.

01:51:04   - And are enthused about being in a tight space

01:51:06   with a bunch of people.

01:51:07   I mean, it's just, yeah, anyway.

01:51:10   I know Apple's making all their employees go back

01:51:12   to the office for certain days of the week

01:51:14   and it's a controversial thing or whatever,

01:51:15   but sort of an optional gathering of people

01:51:20   in close quarters, I feel like there needs to be

01:51:23   something offsetting that.

01:51:24   It's like, okay, there's a risk, what's the reward?

01:51:26   And if the reward is you get to watch the same video,

01:51:29   that's the case point that you could be watching your house,

01:51:32   but other randomly selected people are also there with you,

01:51:36   I don't find that as much of a reward to account

01:51:39   for the risk, especially if you're traveling,

01:51:41   but even if you're not, like,

01:51:43   So it's not like you and all your friends

01:51:45   are gonna be there.

01:51:46   It's gonna be some kind of lottery or something probably,

01:51:48   or space is limited,

01:51:50   and I don't think you and all your friends are gonna get in.

01:51:52   And if you want to watch with your friends,

01:51:53   you just watch it in your house with your friends.

01:51:55   Like, I don't wanna be in a room full of strangers

01:51:57   all breathing on each other

01:51:58   so I can watch a video on a screen.

01:52:00   So not appealing to me.

01:52:02   And it's weird because like,

01:52:04   I mean, we still assume at this point,

01:52:06   Apple hasn't really said otherwise,

01:52:08   but like, obviously the W2C went online because of COVID.

01:52:11   And there was a debate of like,

01:52:12   even when COVID is quote unquote over,

01:52:14   will they go back to in-person?

01:52:15   We don't know because I feel like COVID is still a thing now

01:52:18   despite again, despite Apple calling all its employees back

01:52:20   because there's new variants and, you know,

01:52:23   despite the CDC changing its scales or whatever,

01:52:26   there's still a lot of people getting it.

01:52:27   There's just fewer people getting super sick

01:52:29   'cause a lot of people are vaccinated.

01:52:30   It's not, it is still a thing, let's say.

01:52:33   So if you're gonna hold a conference online,

01:52:36   I imagine at least partly because COVID is still a thing

01:52:40   that people are concerned about,

01:52:42   why then subvert that by saying,

01:52:45   but also let's have at least one place

01:52:46   where we can sort of have a super spreader event.

01:52:48   We gotta get some people in here to be next to each other.

01:52:51   And it's like, okay, maybe if you gave them a live show

01:52:54   and you broadcast the keynote live

01:52:56   and the people who were there saw the keynote in person,

01:52:58   live on stage people, and then all of us streamed it live,

01:53:02   maybe that would be a reason to show up

01:53:03   because it's watching a live show, it's spontaneous,

01:53:06   interesting things can happen.

01:53:08   It's just a more exciting event

01:53:09   than sitting in a room and watching a video,

01:53:11   but they're not doing it live.

01:53:12   They're gonna pre-record everything

01:53:13   just like they have in the past,

01:53:14   and then you're just gonna get to watch the video

01:53:16   in a room with a bunch of other people

01:53:18   all breathing in each other.

01:53:19   No thanks.

01:53:20   (laughing)

01:53:21   And they're basically like, the whole thing with WWDC is,

01:53:24   no one caught COVID at last year's WWDC,

01:53:26   like no people who attended it anyway,

01:53:29   because it was all online.

01:53:30   We were all sitting in our own houses, right?

01:53:32   And they're not gonna be able to say that this year.

01:53:34   People are gonna come to this thing,

01:53:35   and I don't know what their requirements are gonna be

01:53:37   for vaccines and masking or whatever,

01:53:38   but people are gonna catch it.

01:53:39   They're gonna catch it when they're traveling,

01:53:41   they're gonna catch it when they're in the room.

01:53:42   And because we're probably all vaccinated

01:53:45   and hopefully a lot of people aren't gonna die because of it

01:53:47   but they're contributing to the spread

01:53:49   for a sort of optional event

01:53:51   that doesn't seem particularly rewarding

01:53:53   to offset that risk.

01:53:54   So I don't quite understand why they're doing this

01:53:56   'cause you know,

01:53:57   because everything having to do with Apple

01:53:58   is gonna be a story.

01:53:59   You know, if five people get COVID and have the sniffles,

01:54:03   it's gonna be a story.

01:54:04   It's like, oh, Apple held this thing in person

01:54:06   and these lottery winners,

01:54:07   what did they win in their lottery?

01:54:08   They won COVID, right?

01:54:09   It's gonna happen just because anything Apple does

01:54:11   is a story and I'm not faulting Apple for us.

01:54:13   I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do

01:54:15   and if you choose to go, like maybe you've never been

01:54:17   to W2C and you just wanna do a fun thing or whatever,

01:54:20   no big deal, it doesn't appeal to me,

01:54:21   but it seems weird that Apple would give this option

01:54:24   knowing that there is a big PR downside for it

01:54:27   and I don't see any upside for Apple in doing this, right?

01:54:30   'Cause again, they don't get to perform live,

01:54:32   it's not too influential press, it's not like,

01:54:35   what does Apple get out of doing this?

01:54:37   just all potential downside for a story

01:54:39   for people getting COVID and no real upside

01:54:41   other than giving, you know, maybe, I mean, I don't know,

01:54:44   maybe the people who attend feel better about Apple

01:54:47   than the people who don't attend because, you know,

01:54:49   it's an exciting experience or something,

01:54:51   but I find it a little bit baffling.

01:54:53   - Yeah, it seems, you're right,

01:54:55   the like risk reward or cost reward even, you know,

01:54:59   even if you're not as concerned about COVID,

01:55:02   Just, I don't, the idea of going there,

01:55:07   I guess I would like to see Apple Park.

01:55:11   I think that would be fun.

01:55:13   And so that would be the value to me in like,

01:55:16   I would love to see this really cool office park

01:55:19   that they've built.

01:55:20   - You just go there, they don't have snipers.

01:55:22   - Wow. - No, you can't,

01:55:23   the visitor center is like--

01:55:25   - Quite a ways away. - Have you ever,

01:55:26   you ever known people, maybe even in your family,

01:55:31   friends who like, they really don't like people.

01:55:35   And even when they like you, they kind of want to keep you

01:55:38   at a distance and they kind of like don't want you

01:55:40   like touching their stuff or anything.

01:55:41   That's Apple, like Apple really does not like people

01:55:45   coming into their space and looking at their stuff

01:55:47   and you know, touching their bed and stuff.

01:55:48   Like they don't want that.

01:55:49   And so, the Apple Park Visitor Center is hilarious

01:55:53   because it is first of all, beautiful.

01:55:55   It is an amazing, they made this amazing building.

01:55:58   It's basically a really nice Apple store with some bonuses.

01:56:03   However, if you go to Apple Park,

01:56:06   the only thing you're allowed to go to

01:56:08   is the visitor center.

01:56:09   And the visitor center can basically not,

01:56:11   it can barely see the rest of the building.

01:56:14   And the visitor center itself is not in the building.

01:56:17   And so if you're going to see the building,

01:56:19   you don't get to actually see it, really.

01:56:21   Like you get to see, you can peer out a window

01:56:23   and kind of see it off in the distance and that's it.

01:56:26   Like you see it between some bushes.

01:56:27   And so actually being able to get into the Apple Park,

01:56:32   that would actually be an interesting thing to see.

01:56:36   - They're not gonna have this Apple Park though.

01:56:37   It's gonna be in the Steve Jobs Theater,

01:56:39   which is also a little bit distant from the ring.

01:56:42   - Oh, I assumed they were gonna have it

01:56:44   in that big outdoor thing in the middle

01:56:46   with the big rainbow stage.

01:56:47   - Maybe, maybe you're right.

01:56:48   I mean, there's not a lot of details about it.

01:56:51   I just imagined it would be in the theater,

01:56:52   but maybe you're right.

01:56:53   Well, being in that park would be better

01:56:55   'cause people could spread out

01:56:56   and they could use the big rainbow stage,

01:56:57   but I've never, I don't think I've ever,

01:57:00   has there ever been a thing where they've taken

01:57:02   random general public people in large numbers

01:57:04   and ferried them into the center of the ring?

01:57:07   - I don't think so.

01:57:08   - Not the ring, I mean, so they used to,

01:57:10   in very olden days before we went to WBC,

01:57:13   the beer bash, I believe, used to be held on Apple's campus.

01:57:17   - Yeah, but that was Infinite Loop.

01:57:19   Despite my joke about there not being snipers,

01:57:22   Apple Park is way more nailed down than Infinite Loop was.

01:57:25   Like Infinite Loop is just an office park,

01:57:26   you just walk in there and there's parking lots

01:57:28   and it's not like you could wander into the buildings

01:57:30   but you could walk along the sidewalks

01:57:32   and see all the buildings and do all this stuff.

01:57:34   Whereas Apple Park, despite the fact

01:57:36   that there probably aren't snipers,

01:57:38   it really has a go away vibe, right?

01:57:40   - Oh yeah.

01:57:42   - They do not want you to be near the actual ring building

01:57:47   if you are not an Apple employee.

01:57:49   'Cause it's not made like an office park

01:57:51   where it's like, oh, just drive right in,

01:57:51   there's a parking lot, park,

01:57:53   and then you can walk up to a door

01:57:54   and then as soon as you get to a door and a building,

01:57:55   Of course, you can't really get much farther

01:57:56   'cause there's someone stopping you in security,

01:57:58   but Apple Park is very much,

01:58:01   I don't think there are even fences so much

01:58:04   as there is landscaping that is telling you

01:58:06   there is no path for you to go here.

01:58:09   If you drive your car in, you have to,

01:58:11   you're either an Apple employee

01:58:12   and you're going to one of the Apple employee

01:58:14   parking garages, which is still distant from the buildings,

01:58:16   or you're going to the visitor center.

01:58:18   And then if you're walking along the paths to the building,

01:58:21   I don't actually know.

01:58:23   I'm sure a bunch of high school kids who live near there,

01:58:26   'cause there are houses near there,

01:58:27   have probably explored Apple Park at night or whatever

01:58:30   and found out the extent of the security guards

01:58:32   and cameras that are probably all over the place.

01:58:34   But yeah, it's not inviting.

01:58:37   And that's what I said about going

01:58:38   into the center of the ring.

01:58:38   The beer bash, they didn't care

01:58:40   if anyone went into the infinite loop.

01:58:41   You can just drive your car right in there,

01:58:43   and if you can find a parking spot, congratulations.

01:58:45   You're in infinite loop, right?

01:58:46   But that's not Apple Park at all.

01:58:48   So I don't even know, where would people park?

01:58:50   How would they be escorted into the place

01:58:52   - They do have a lot of parking, I know they have a lot of parking, but it's not... it

01:58:57   would seem weird to me, so I just assumed it would be in the Steve Jobs thing.

01:59:00   - I mean, I don't know.

01:59:02   - If it's just gonna be getting together to basically have a viewing party for a pre-recorded

01:59:05   keynote, that feels like less of a community event than would be worth going to.

01:59:12   - There'd probably be pastries.

01:59:14   - That's fair.

01:59:15   - There's gonna be like some bad California bagels, some coffee that I can't comment on

01:59:20   the quality of, and then some kind of pastries.

01:59:24   Because they said it's for the keynote

01:59:25   and State of the Union, so there's gonna be

01:59:27   a break between there, right, probably,

01:59:28   and that's a long thing, so it's gonna be come in,

01:59:31   maybe someone will be there in person to say a lot of,

01:59:34   people in the chat room are asking,

01:59:35   someone was surprised to say it's not gonna be press.

01:59:37   It seems like, it says, space is limited,

01:59:39   and details how to apply will be provided to it.

01:59:41   Maybe Apple will let in any press that wants to go,

01:59:44   but honestly, why would press show up

01:59:46   if they're not going to be able to get information

01:59:49   that they couldn't get from being at home.

01:59:50   Will the press be meeting with people?

01:59:53   Will they, you know, like, would press come

01:59:56   and sit there and watch the video

01:59:58   if there wasn't also interviews with Apple people afterwards?

02:00:02   And so far, we don't know what the deal is.

02:00:03   - Generally, like with most press events they hold,

02:00:06   there is some kind of component of like briefings

02:00:08   or hands-on areas or something.

02:00:10   And so it does make sense usually,

02:00:11   like if you're called out there for press,

02:00:13   then, you know, do that.

02:00:14   But I mean, they haven't held an in-person press event

02:00:16   since COVID either.

02:00:18   It remains to be seen whether this will become that or not.

02:00:20   - And would they really wanna do that?

02:00:21   Because now it's like,

02:00:22   not only are you gathering a bunch of people together,

02:00:23   but you gathering all of your press together

02:00:25   into a potential, you know,

02:00:26   let's get as much of the Apple press to get COVID

02:00:29   all at the same time when our products are being asked.

02:00:31   - Anyway, I think this is,

02:00:33   what this mostly is,

02:00:35   is what we thought it would be, which is remote.

02:00:37   And I think that, again,

02:00:38   because of everything we said last week,

02:00:40   I think that's great,

02:00:41   because the remote conference really is better

02:00:46   in more ways for more people.

02:00:48   And that's ultimately what they have to focus on now.

02:00:52   At the scale they're at now,

02:00:54   even if COVID wasn't a thing right now,

02:00:57   the scale Apple's at now,

02:00:58   they serve so many more people so much better

02:01:02   with the types of remote conferences

02:01:04   they've been doing for the last couple of years.

02:01:06   And so to go back to a traditional in-person setup now,

02:01:10   I think really would be a regression

02:01:12   in a number of pretty big areas.

02:01:14   So to see them doing this again,

02:01:17   you know, viewing party aside,

02:01:18   'cause we don't really know what that's gonna be,

02:01:19   but to see them doing the remote conference again,

02:01:22   I think is a very good thing,

02:01:24   and I'm looking forward to it.

02:01:25   - I think the hybrid approach does make a lot of sense,

02:01:28   because the risk-reward starts to make way more sense

02:01:31   when you get into a concert type thing, right?

02:01:34   I mean, going to a music concert,

02:01:37   or a live performance or something,

02:01:39   or even arguably going to the movie theater.

02:01:41   If you're there to be entertained

02:01:43   in a way that you can't be entertained at home,

02:01:44   either because you don't have a movie theater in your house

02:01:46   or because you're not gonna have a live band playing

02:01:48   for you, then you're like, okay, risk reward, right?

02:01:50   You know, then you can balance it and say,

02:01:52   there is a reward for doing this.

02:01:53   And so it's worth it for me to take the risk

02:01:56   'cause I'm all vaccinated and everything

02:01:57   and everyone will be wearing a mask and we'll be outdoors

02:01:59   and we'll be spaced apart and I'll get to see

02:02:01   my favorite band, that's worth it, right?

02:02:03   But to go in a room and watch a video

02:02:05   with a bunch of random strangers,

02:02:07   the risk reward is terrible.

02:02:08   So the hybrid one is you do the keynote live.

02:02:11   Bunch of people on stage, you know,

02:02:13   wherever it's gonna be, you could do it outdoors

02:02:14   if you want people to have more room to spread out,

02:02:16   but you do it live, and you broadcast it live.

02:02:18   They broadcast the keynote live all the time, right?

02:02:20   It's free for everyone, the whole rest of the conference

02:02:22   is the same, pre-recorded sessions,

02:02:23   free for everybody, blah, blah, blah,

02:02:25   but you do the keynote and maybe even

02:02:27   the State of the Union live,

02:02:28   and then afterwards you have press briefings.

02:02:31   And the people who get to attend

02:02:32   are all the press that you invite,

02:02:34   plus a lottery for other people who want to

02:02:36   essentially attend the Apple concert, right?

02:02:39   That I feel like has the best of both worlds

02:02:41   from Apple's perspective.

02:02:42   No, it doesn't have the best of both worlds

02:02:44   for the attendees perspective,

02:02:46   because you don't get the whole week of networking

02:02:47   with people in in-person labs or whatever.

02:02:49   But from Apple's perspective,

02:02:51   putting on the show in person,

02:02:52   gathering the press and then briefing them,

02:02:55   that's a big benefit for Apple.

02:02:56   And it seems like they're not gonna get this in this one.

02:02:59   'Cause it's just gonna be,

02:03:00   here's a video or here's some pastries, it seems like.

02:03:02   Anyway, none of us are going, just needless to say,

02:03:06   I don't think any of us are even going to apply to go.

02:03:08   I certainly wouldn't go.

02:03:09   But I hope somebody goes and reports back

02:03:11   to tell us what it is and what the pastries were.

02:03:14   - Yep. (laughing)

02:03:15   - That's the important news.

02:03:16   What are the pastries?

02:03:17   - What, 'cause they might get a boxed lunch.

02:03:19   - Oh my God.

02:03:20   - $150 boxed lunch in between the keynote

02:03:23   of the State of the Union to get the real WWDC experience.

02:03:26   My goodness.

02:03:28   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

02:03:30   Memberful, Remote, and Mack Weldon.

02:03:33   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

02:03:35   You can join and get that sweet merch discount,

02:03:37   atp.fm/join and we'll talk to you next week.

02:03:44   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

02:03:49   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:03:51   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

02:03:54   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:03:59   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:04:02   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

02:04:05   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:04:10   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

02:04:14   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:04:19   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:04:23   Auntie Marco Arment

02:04:26   S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

02:04:31   It's accidental

02:04:34   They didn't mean to

02:04:36   Accidental

02:04:39   Tech Podcast So Long

02:04:43   That's the Taco Comfort Solutions SR504 switching relay.

02:04:50   PDF is in the Taco Comfort Solutions.

02:04:53   Take a look at the link up that you were using.

02:04:56   I saw it.

02:04:58   Yep.

02:04:59   Four zones with zone 4 priority.

02:05:02   24 volt AC power just sitting right there ready to be tapped by those wires.

02:05:08   Well, I'm glad to hear that your home got smarter.

02:05:12   Indeed.

02:05:13   So it goes I did save my old thermostat because of course I did

02:05:16   Hold thermostat is pretty but in the attic

02:05:19   The reason I was replacing it is because the buttons were literally not working anymore

02:05:23   so when I tried to like adjust the program for the winter like it's got like, you know set and up down and next buttons and

02:05:29   Like the up button and the next button like wouldn't work

02:05:33   Like you have to press him really hard and wiggle your finger and it was like if those buttons don't work

02:05:38   It's kind of a problem because I do need to like

02:05:40   You know set things up or change things or whatever so I'm like it's time to get a new one

02:05:44   But the amazing thing about this old, you know

02:05:47   Pre computer technology thing. I was worried like

02:05:51   When I take the batteries out that it's going to lose my program of like, you know

02:05:56   This time turn the heat on to this temperature, you know the schedule basically. Nope

02:06:00   No backup battery either. It's not like there's a watch battery in there

02:06:04   That was afraid because I took the batteries out cuz I don't want to explode then I was like, where's the little watch battery?

02:06:07   I should maybe I should be worried about this or and I read the manual for the thing and it's like don't worry

02:06:12   The only thing you lose when the batteries take out is after one to two minutes presumably when capacitors like discharge

02:06:18   You will lose the date and time but your program will be saved forever in some sort of non-volatile memory

02:06:23   That's inside this thing. So I'm saving it. Yeah this this ecobee thing, you know craps out or dies or something like that

02:06:29   I can just rip it right off the wall and put the other one back on

02:06:31   [BEEPING]