473: Fanboats and Coattails


00:00:00   I don't really know if you need me for this one.

00:00:04   What are you talking about?

00:00:06   Because I really just want to go watch the Letterkenny special that came out yesterday that I haven't had time to watch yet.

00:00:13   So I don't even know why I'm here right now.

00:00:15   Are you in denial about the announcements or something?

00:00:19   We'll find out. So here's the thing.

00:00:21   Oh my God.

00:00:22   I'm going to do that thing where I'm not going to tell you whether or not I bought anything until later on in the episode.

00:00:28   the episodes. You have to listen. Although I will also say that my brand is very strong. My brand

00:00:33   is very strong because I got a lot of tweets with people saying with questionable amounts of

00:00:40   sarcasm like, "Oh gosh, are we going to have to listen to Casey plug membership 85 times this week?"

00:00:45   Uh, the answer is probably. And, uh, I'm, I'm a little concerned that this is my brand now. He's

00:00:51   just yelling for our own membership, but that's okay.

00:00:55   (electronic beeping)

00:00:57   So we have anything to talk about this week?

00:00:58   - No, no, there's--

00:01:00   - Nothing at all?

00:01:01   - Nothing really happened, did it?

00:01:02   - No, nothing at all.

00:01:03   This was a big week, my goodness.

00:01:05   - Oh, wow. (laughs)

00:01:06   - So we can start with standard ATP fair.

00:01:10   We should talk fashion.

00:01:14   (laughing)

00:01:16   - Have you bought any new watch brands

00:01:18   from the Spring Collection?

00:01:19   - Is there, actually, all kidding aside,

00:01:21   Is there a new spring collection?

00:01:21   'Cause I missed it, if so.

00:01:22   Oh really, I honestly didn't realize.

00:01:24   - Yeah, this is one of those things,

00:01:24   like in recent years, like, not just recent years,

00:01:28   Apple has for a long time now debuted new

00:01:31   like Apple Watch bands and iPhone cases,

00:01:34   usually at least once or twice outside of the usual

00:01:39   fall events. - Yeah, yeah.

00:01:41   - And usually there's a spring collection,

00:01:42   and there is indeed a spring collection.

00:01:44   You gotta get a nice new yellow and a new orange

00:01:48   and I think a new green maybe?

00:01:50   But yeah, anyway, that's that's the spring collection.

00:01:52   Are you talking about the green phone though?

00:01:53   Is that what we're talking about?

00:01:54   - No, actually not even that.

00:01:56   - I wonder if the watch bands are gonna be like,

00:01:59   I was gonna say like beanie babies,

00:02:00   but like, because you know, they do that thing

00:02:03   where they introduce them, you know, and spring and fall.

00:02:05   But the other part of that is that they go away.

00:02:07   Like, so if there's one particular shade of like purple

00:02:10   that you really liked, but they only sold it like

00:02:12   three years ago in the fall, you may never see that again.

00:02:15   So I wonder if someone's just like collecting them all

00:02:17   and like at the end of this, we'll just have like

00:02:19   the ultimate collection of Apple watch bands.

00:02:21   I have all the colors.

00:02:22   It's impossible to get them.

00:02:24   So I know that this was a thing,

00:02:26   that the watch band collections was a thing,

00:02:28   but I had no idea that they actually really did do a new one.

00:02:30   - Wait, something's, okay.

00:02:32   I might freak out for a moment here.

00:02:35   The white sport band is gone.

00:02:39   - That's what I'm telling you, they go away.

00:02:40   - The white sport band though?

00:02:42   That's always the, that's my band.

00:02:45   What?

00:02:46   - Oh, the white band is your band?

00:02:48   Did it just happen to you, Marco?

00:02:50   - It was Johnny Ive's band too, right?

00:02:52   - I mean, I guess he's gone.

00:02:53   And honestly, he's looking at this event good for his...

00:02:56   (laughing)

00:02:58   - Oh my word.

00:02:59   - I guess we'll get to that.

00:03:00   Oh man, what am I gonna wear?

00:03:02   I guess I'll have to switch to like lemon zest or something.

00:03:05   - So you're gonna become like me,

00:03:06   you're gonna stock up on them like cheese graters,

00:03:07   you know, in the basement, just 50 white watch bands.

00:03:09   - Starlight just looks dirty.

00:03:11   - Mm-hmm.

00:03:12   Dish water, they call it.

00:03:13   - Yes, dish water white.

00:03:14   Which honestly, the white band does get dirty easily,

00:03:17   But I just, you know, I clean it. It's fine.

00:03:19   All right. So for the record listeners, before we started recording,

00:03:22   before we did anything, John's this was, you know,

00:03:27   as long as we don't get mired down in the early stuff, sidetracked,

00:03:31   whatever. As long as you don't get sidetracked.

00:03:34   Why would we get sidetracked?

00:03:35   I will take the blame for this one. We are on line one of the notes.

00:03:39   We haven't even gotten to line one. We've gotten to Apple event.

00:03:43   That is literally the only thing that we've gotten to.

00:03:45   - No, I mean like line one, yeah,

00:03:46   that's the heading though, the first body line.

00:03:48   All right, go ahead, Kasey.

00:03:49   - Okay, so the fashion I was trying to talk about

00:03:51   before we went down this rabbit hole

00:03:52   is astute individuals, of which I was not one of them,

00:03:56   noticed Tim's combination of shirt color and watch band.

00:04:00   And I'm going to choose to believe this was deliberate,

00:04:03   and I am here for it.

00:04:04   He had a very lovely blue shirt and a very yellow watch band.

00:04:08   What could that possibly indicate?

00:04:10   - He could just like lemon zest,

00:04:12   which is the color that he was wearing.

00:04:13   However, yeah, it's definitely a Ukraine thing.

00:04:15   absolutely although it is interesting that like

00:04:18   so he has this idea i should wear colors for solidarity with ukraine great right

00:04:22   so he goes to his wardrobe and he's like well i've got the yellow watch band

00:04:25   that's part of the new spring line i've got to get a blue shirt but i

00:04:28   guess his closet simply doesn't contain any shirts that are

00:04:32   close to the color blue on the flag of ukraine

00:04:36   he just has like a tasteful like tim cook kind of blue

00:04:40   and so that's what he wore like i don't like he couldn't bring himself to wear

00:04:43   like the actual colors because it would just not be appropriate for Tim Cook.

00:04:47   Well, I think there's a limit of how much excitement Tim Cook can display.

00:04:52   And I think the yellow wristband, that's his limit.

00:04:56   It's very exuberant.

00:04:57   Yes, that's as exuberant as he can be.

00:05:00   Indeed.

00:05:01   Alright, so in the attempt to move it right along, Apple starts announcing things.

00:05:06   They start with a recap of some of the things.

00:05:09   Not even a recap.

00:05:10   both a recap and a preview of some of their featured films,

00:05:13   some of, most of which actually I was not aware of.

00:05:16   There's apparently a new animated series,

00:05:18   or excuse me, not animated series, but animated film.

00:05:21   Lucky, I think is the name of it.

00:05:23   - I think it's called Buck, right?

00:05:24   - Oh, was it Luck? Okay.

00:05:25   - Maybe you're getting confused with the David Milch show

00:05:29   about horse racing, maybe?

00:05:31   - Yeah, let's go with that.

00:05:33   And so as per upgrade this week,

00:05:35   I believe that this is Tim, is it Tim Laster?

00:05:38   No, John Lasters.

00:05:39   John Lasseter's new place that's doing that.

00:05:43   There's a spy movie of some sort

00:05:46   with the dude from which are Henry Cavill.

00:05:49   There's all sorts of different stuff that's coming,

00:05:51   some of which looked really, really good.

00:05:52   And then they also announced, Apple announced,

00:05:55   that Friday Night Baseball is coming to Apple TV+

00:05:59   if baseball ever comes back.

00:06:01   So two episodes every Friday night.

00:06:03   It will be available on Apple TV+

00:06:05   and for a limited time without the need of a subscription.

00:06:08   And there's a post from friend of the show Jason Snell and also a huge baseball fan about

00:06:13   this which we will put in the show notes.

00:06:14   Wait, hold on.

00:06:15   Honest question.

00:06:16   Is baseball not back?

00:06:17   I have no idea.

00:06:18   No.

00:06:19   Really?

00:06:20   No.

00:06:21   So there's supposed to, well, I probably know the most of the three of us about this and

00:06:25   I know very, very, very little.

00:06:26   So take everything I'm about to say with a grain of salt.

00:06:29   But my limited understanding is...

00:06:31   Welcome to the show.

00:06:32   You know as much about sports as we know about a lot of the stuff we talk about.

00:06:36   Right?

00:06:37   So it is supposed to have been back, but the owners and the players are bickering over

00:06:43   the owners not thinking they're rich enough and the players feeling like they deserve

00:06:47   a small cut of the ridiculous riches that the owners have.

00:06:52   And so Jason apparently is listening live and is correcting me already.

00:06:55   He said it's an owner lockout.

00:06:57   So the owners are refusing to, if I understand it right, let any of the games happen because

00:07:02   they're greedy jerks.

00:07:03   And so there's no baseball yet.

00:07:06   In fact, I believe breaking news just before we record it,

00:07:09   I believe they have announced another couple of weeks delay

00:07:12   in the season or something like that.

00:07:14   So yeah, it's kind of ugly and an interesting time

00:07:18   for Apple to announce that they're getting

00:07:19   Friday night baseball, assuming it ever comes back.

00:07:21   - You should read that post because even if you don't care

00:07:23   about baseball because it talks more about streaming

00:07:27   services and how that intersects with the way sports

00:07:30   has traditionally been funded and viewed by sports fans.

00:07:33   So even if you're not into sports,

00:07:35   you might be interested in that

00:07:36   because it's all of our future.

00:07:38   We're not gonna get into now

00:07:39   'cause we're not getting sidetracked, right?

00:07:40   Casey, next item.

00:07:41   - That's right, that's right.

00:07:42   Moving right along.

00:07:42   - Speaking of disputes,

00:07:43   I have no ferry service right now because of a dispute.

00:07:46   - I know, we heard.

00:07:47   - Did we hear?

00:07:48   I didn't hear this.

00:07:49   - Well, a couple of shows back,

00:07:50   he said they're gonna stop ferry service.

00:07:51   - Oh yeah, and they did.

00:07:53   - No one thought they would actually do it.

00:07:54   They did it starting yesterday,

00:07:56   so we have no ferry service.

00:07:58   Yay.

00:07:58   - If only you had a vehicle you could drive on the sand

00:08:01   and go somewhere.

00:08:02   - We're just gonna make them buy a boat, stop.

00:08:04   Everyone's boats are still in the marshmallow wrap.

00:08:06   - You're getting one of those off-road vehicles

00:08:09   that turns into a boat, a duck boat or whatever.

00:08:11   - Oh, don't even tease.

00:08:12   Or like, what was it, a Gibbs Aquatica?

00:08:14   Oh, man.

00:08:15   - A duck boat would fit under your house.

00:08:16   Take a measurement.

00:08:17   - Would it?

00:08:18   They're pretty big.

00:08:19   - No, it would not.

00:08:20   They are massive.

00:08:20   Don't they have them in Boston?

00:08:21   They're frickin' huge.

00:08:22   - Their house is very high, though.

00:08:23   - The duck boats are significantly larger

00:08:25   than you think they are.

00:08:26   - Yeah, they are absolutely massive.

00:08:27   - They barely fit on the road.

00:08:29   - Yeah, I thought they had them tooling around Boston.

00:08:31   Am I making this up?

00:08:32   - They do, yeah.

00:08:33   Have you not seen them? They are massive.

00:08:35   I've written on them. I think I went on a duck tour.

00:08:37   What about one of those fan boats they use in Florida? Would that work here? Or is the bay too choppy?

00:08:40   No, that's not good for the winter.

00:08:42   Because the bay's really shallow, which makes it hard to drive a lot of boats on it.

00:08:45   But like, you know, you figure one of those fan boats are actually probably really nice for shallow.

00:08:49   What is that actually called? I'm drawing a blank. What's that actually called?

00:08:51   It's called a fan boat.

00:08:52   Is it really? No, I thought there was another one.

00:08:54   There's a hovercraft. That's a different thing.

00:08:55   No, no, no, no. I know exactly what you're thinking of. On the Everglades.

00:08:57   Yeah, in Florida.

00:08:59   But what was that show that was on the Everglades huh? You probably saw it on naked night. What the hell was that called?

00:09:03   Oh, I have no idea probably not Dexter Jason. Hey, you're talking to Jason Jason. What was the show where they're on the Everglades?

00:09:08   I have no idea. It doesn't really matter. Well, I guess fanboat is what we're gonna go with. You see we keep getting distracted.

00:09:16   Us?

00:09:18   Totally not my fault. Yeah, not at all. Definitely not at all.

00:09:21   All right moving along this these show notes are already a mess. We've got

00:09:27   Apple Watch bands, Beanie Babies,

00:09:29   Gibbs Aquatica, Duck Boats, Fan Boats.

00:09:32   Oh my gosh, it's an airboat.

00:09:33   Yeah, that's what I do.

00:09:34   - I put in a link to the Luck TV show,

00:09:36   don't forget to get that.

00:09:37   - Oh yeah, the Luck TV show.

00:09:39   Oh golly.

00:09:41   This is a mess, this is an absolute mess.

00:09:43   But this is what the people tune in for.

00:09:45   All right, so moving right along,

00:09:46   there's new colors, there's green and other green,

00:09:49   otherwise known as Alpine green.

00:09:51   - This is actually interesting,

00:09:52   because normally in the spring event,

00:09:55   For Apple to release a new color of the mainstream/value phone,

00:10:01   that's been fairly common in recent years.

00:10:04   But to release a new version of the pro phone is less common.

00:10:07   I believe-- when was the last time that happened?

00:10:10   I think they did a Project Red a while back.

00:10:13   But I don't remember the last time they did a new pro

00:10:15   color in the spring.

00:10:16   Yeah, I can't remember one off the top of my head either,

00:10:19   unless you count when they tried to release the white-- what

00:10:21   was it, iPhone 4-- for 18 months and never quite got around

00:10:24   Other than that I can't think of any. But yeah, so Alpine Green and Green, and they

00:10:30   look good at a glance. New iPhone SE 3 for $430 as introduced by Francesca Sweet using

00:10:37   A15. Apparently it is "incredibly popular with new iPhone users." They also made an

00:10:43   off-handed comment that they've added more new users to the iPhone 13 lineup than each

00:10:47   of the prior five launches. The iPhone SE 3 gets 5G. I believe, I might be wrong about

00:10:53   but I believe it does not get the millimeter wave wideband ultra wideband whatever it's called super fancy technology

00:11:00   But it's a lot of phone with touch ID

00:11:02   For 430 bucks which ain't bad. It's it's following the SE pattern of

00:11:07   It was it's been a couple years since the last SE and they gave it in the spring

00:11:12   What the flagship phones had in the fall guts wise with a couple, you know things cut here and there in an old case design

00:11:20   My question is, do you think this is the last

00:11:23   Touch ID phone finally that we will see?

00:11:25   - I hope so, but I mean, not that I'm against Touch ID,

00:11:29   but it's just weirder and weirder to see it.

00:11:31   It just looks like from a different era, you know?

00:11:33   - Well, on the other hand, though,

00:11:34   they leaned into that hard.

00:11:37   Like, when they were showing it,

00:11:38   they showed a huge shot of the bottom half

00:11:41   with the big Touch ID sensor.

00:11:43   They mentioned the Touch ID sensor.

00:11:44   They showed a screenshot of Touch ID working.

00:11:47   So I think clearly what they're going for here

00:11:48   is a lot of people still love Touch ID on their phones

00:11:52   and don't want to move from it.

00:11:54   And so they are keeping this around for a reason.

00:11:57   Part of it is budget and price and segmentation.

00:12:00   But I think part of it is just trying

00:12:02   to keep those people happy that insist on Touch ID still.

00:12:06   And that might be a while before it goes away.

00:12:09   So might this be the last one?

00:12:11   Or maybe it won't be.

00:12:12   Maybe they're going to keep this style around even longer

00:12:15   than we think just because those last texture ID holdouts

00:12:18   aren't really going anywhere.

00:12:20   - I keep hearing how expensive,

00:12:21   how surprisingly expensive,

00:12:23   relatively speaking obviously,

00:12:24   face ID is to deal with, I guess,

00:12:26   all the sensors or whatever,

00:12:27   and we still haven't really seen,

00:12:29   we saw a little bit of consolidation

00:12:30   with when they made the notch smaller or whatever,

00:12:32   but that may be the limiting factor.

00:12:35   Not that they, or maybe they would do something

00:12:37   like they did with the iPad Air,

00:12:38   which we're gonna get to in a second,

00:12:39   where it's like, well,

00:12:40   we're gonna give you the new design,

00:12:41   but no, you don't get face ID

00:12:42   because this is the budget price or whatever.

00:12:45   So, but you can't do that with a phone, right?

00:12:47   You can't, well, can you put Touch ID in the power button

00:12:51   on a phone-sized device?

00:12:52   Probably not, I don't know.

00:12:54   I had to do the measurements to figure it out,

00:12:56   but I feel like that's what's holding this thing here.

00:12:58   It's not so much that they love Touch ID,

00:12:59   it's that the replacement for it

00:13:01   would bump this price up too much right now.

00:13:03   At least that's my impression.

00:13:04   - Eh, it could be both, honestly.

00:13:05   But there are a lot of people who love it.

00:13:07   Like, if it was purely a value move,

00:13:10   I don't think they would have accentuated

00:13:12   as much as they did in the presentation.

00:13:14   I mean it's a differentiating factor.

00:13:15   It's like hey, if you like Touch ID, here's the one.

00:13:17   Like obviously you're gonna pitch it for

00:13:19   how it's different from the other phones.

00:13:20   But that could be just selling what you have

00:13:23   versus updating.

00:13:25   But anyway, to spoil it,

00:13:28   they did not update the super cheap iPad to have flat size.

00:13:30   But they did update the iPad Air, which was nice.

00:13:33   - We are sponsored this week by New Relic.

00:13:37   You know the drill, you're running some servers,

00:13:39   you're just barely falling asleep,

00:13:40   and you're jolted awake by an emergency page.

00:13:42   It's your night on call and something is wrong.

00:13:44   The good news is you've got new relics.

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00:13:48   and find the problem.

00:13:50   Error is in box.

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00:13:52   But something is up in APM.

00:13:54   Click the error and find the deployment marker

00:13:56   where it all began.

00:13:57   Dig deeper and there's another set

00:13:58   of errors in Kubernetes starting after an update.

00:14:00   Ask that team to roll back and problem solved.

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00:14:06   products into one platform so engineering teams

00:14:09   can see across their entire software stack in one place.

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00:14:58   New Relic.com/atp.

00:15:01   Thank you so much to New Relic for sponsoring our show.

00:15:04   (jazz music)

00:15:06   - New iPad Air, which is in many ways

00:15:09   not that different from the old,

00:15:11   but it does have an M1 in it, so that's exciting.

00:15:14   - Yeah, not an A15.

00:15:15   - Yeah, this is an interesting choice.

00:15:18   In the past, the iPads, the bigger iPads,

00:15:23   would have the X versions of the system on a chip.

00:15:27   And of course, that one Z one, that was weird.

00:15:29   But for the most part, it was like,

00:15:30   you'd have the X version that had like,

00:15:32   same base cores as the A whatever iPhone one of that number

00:15:35   but then more GPUs or maybe one more CPU core.

00:15:38   And so it's interesting in this case to not do that.

00:15:43   So to give it the M1, first of all,

00:15:45   that actually will hurt it single-threaded wise

00:15:48   or in certain tests 'cause the M1 is based on the A14 cores

00:15:52   which of course we'll get to more later.

00:15:54   So to launch a new M1 iPad today

00:15:59   I thought was a little bit surprising

00:16:01   but also giving it all that heft.

00:16:05   It's gonna have, I believe somebody confirmed

00:16:07   that it has eight gigs of RAM,

00:16:08   or at least it can have eight gigs of RAM, I don't know.

00:16:10   And all that massive CPU and GPU cores,

00:16:14   huge parallel performance on the M1.

00:16:17   To have that in the iPad Air and the iPad Pro

00:16:22   definitely leaves the gap as a weird question mark

00:16:26   of like, well, what does the Pro still offer above it?

00:16:29   And there are some things.

00:16:30   I made a quick list here.

00:16:32   The big thing for me is that the Pro has speakers

00:16:34   on both sides still, and none of the other iPads

00:16:36   do as far as I know.

00:16:38   So if you have it in landscape, you

00:16:39   have sound coming out of both sides, which is nice.

00:16:42   Pro also has Face ID, has 120 hertz, the big triple camera

00:16:46   system with the LiDAR, and the Pro's USB-C port

00:16:49   is a Thunderbolt port, whereas the new Air is still just USB-C.

00:16:54   And they said they made it a faster USB-C data rate,

00:16:57   but it's still not Thunderbolt.

00:16:58   - It's USB 3.1 Gen 2, which to figure out what that means,

00:17:02   you have to go look up in the weird chart

00:17:04   and realize that they renamed everything recently,

00:17:06   but yes, it's faster USB.

00:17:08   - Yeah, so it's interesting, but I feel like it's,

00:17:12   now that the Air has so much of what the Pro has,

00:17:17   it's pushing the Pro more and more into specialty markets,

00:17:21   which makes me think that maybe the Pro is,

00:17:24   I know that the Pro is kind of expected

00:17:26   to have an update later this year,

00:17:28   so maybe this will be,

00:17:30   maybe this will make more sense when that happens.

00:17:32   But it does seem like there's,

00:17:34   there's decreasingly a gap between those two

00:17:37   feature and spec-wise,

00:17:39   and yet there's still a pretty substantial price difference,

00:17:42   and it's still a different model line,

00:17:43   so I am kinda curious, like,

00:17:45   where they're gonna go with this.

00:17:48   - I mean, I think the, this past year,

00:17:50   where only the big iPad Pro had the good mini-LED screen,

00:17:54   right, that seems temporary to me,

00:17:56   and I would imagine that when the new iPads both have Mini LED and both have M2 or whatever,

00:18:03   this will make more sense.

00:18:04   It's just that the cadence of iPad is always weird and very often you get these strange

00:18:07   things.

00:18:08   I mean, even just like having the iPad Mini have a better CPU than the iPad Air for a

00:18:12   while, they're just all out of sync on the iPad line.

00:18:14   So I think we always have these periods where it looks a little bit weird.

00:18:16   But who cares?

00:18:17   This is a great product.

00:18:18   I'm always recommending the iPad Air to people because it's got the new design, new pencil,

00:18:23   but it doesn't have all the features that most people don't care about.

00:18:25   the very fancy screen, and even face ID.

00:18:28   - What's interesting too is if you actually,

00:18:30   I just, if you spec them up spec by spec,

00:18:32   which you have to like, you have to spec up the Air

00:18:34   to match the 256 gig configuration of the Pro

00:18:38   'cause they don't have a matching base level,

00:18:40   but if you spec them up both to 256,

00:18:43   the Pro is only $150 more than the Air.

00:18:46   So it's actually a smaller difference

00:18:47   than I initially assumed.

00:18:49   So maybe, I mean, maybe the answer is that the Air is just,

00:18:53   you know, they're pushing the Air higher end.

00:18:55   because I feel like if you buy an iPad,

00:18:58   either you care about the cool features of it or you don't.

00:19:02   If you don't, you get the cheap one, period.

00:19:03   And that's what most people buy.

00:19:04   You get the base level iPad nothing,

00:19:07   and everyone buys that and they're mostly happy with it.

00:19:09   And if you want anything else besides that,

00:19:12   you're gonna be spending 900 bucks.

00:19:14   Like, whatever, however you spec it,

00:19:15   you're gonna be, no one's getting a $500 iPad anymore.

00:19:20   - I have no problems with the iPad Air.

00:19:22   I recorded an episode of Clockwise earlier today

00:19:24   where the thesis that was presented on Clockwise

00:19:28   was that it's kind of a weird in-between product

00:19:31   where it's not super duper duper cheap

00:19:33   like the regular iPad or the iPad mini,

00:19:35   and it's not the super baller pro.

00:19:39   So it's kind of this weird in the middle.

00:19:41   I don't necessarily begrudge that.

00:19:42   I think it's nice for Apple to have an offering

00:19:44   at basically any price point,

00:19:46   but it is a little bit, like you guys were saying,

00:19:48   it's a little bit of a weird in the middle area

00:19:50   where I'm not 100% sure who the right market is for it.

00:19:55   But it looks real nice and it's not extremely expensive.

00:19:58   And $600 to start is not terrible.

00:20:01   And I don't know, for me, I don't need,

00:20:03   in my experience anyway,

00:20:04   I don't need a whole ton of storage on an iPad.

00:20:06   Maybe I'm using my iPad wrong,

00:20:07   but you know, 600 bucks for 64 gigs, that ain't bad.

00:20:10   That ain't bad at all.

00:20:11   - I should take a moment also to reflect

00:20:13   on the ridiculousness of the air suffix on this product.

00:20:17   Like, what, we just ignore it now,

00:20:19   but like it does not, there's no analogy to the MacBook Air.

00:20:23   It is not any particularly airier than the iPad Pro.

00:20:28   It's just called this because that's what it was called

00:20:31   a long time ago when at one point

00:20:33   it was actually pretty thin,

00:20:34   but now it's just the same as the Pro.

00:20:36   I guess it does have more air in it.

00:20:38   I don't know, it doesn't make any sense.

00:20:39   - No, the Pro didn't wear

00:20:40   'cause the speakers have a lot of air in them.

00:20:42   - But the Pro might be heavier.

00:20:45   I don't know.

00:20:46   I just wanna look it up.

00:20:47   One thing, Air in the Mac line,

00:20:50   when the MacBook Air first launched,

00:20:51   yeah, it was this thing that was premium

00:20:54   because it was so small and everything,

00:20:56   but that was very short-lived.

00:20:58   What the Air very quickly came to mean

00:21:00   was the one most people should buy

00:21:02   because it's pretty good and pretty small and light.

00:21:04   - Yeah, but that doesn't connect with Air,

00:21:06   and the thing is Air got undercut

00:21:07   by the skinny, plain old MacBook Adorable,

00:21:09   but then the Adorable died,

00:21:10   and the Air is like, now I am the skinniest.

00:21:12   - Right, well, 'cause the Adorable was never the cheap one.

00:21:15   Like, well, in certain ways. - Right, but it was

00:21:17   - The airiest.

00:21:18   - Right, but what I'm saying is when Apple says air,

00:21:20   they usually mean this is like the, it's small,

00:21:24   but it's also like the entry level one

00:21:26   and also the mainstream choice that you should probably buy.

00:21:29   So it's interesting that in the Mac,

00:21:31   it is the entry level one,

00:21:33   and it has been for a very long time.

00:21:35   So really I think the iPad Air

00:21:37   should be the lowest end iPad.

00:21:38   - Should be the lowest without the plain old iPad,

00:21:40   without a suffix, but it's not.

00:21:42   - But I guess it would be the question

00:21:44   of what you call this one,

00:21:45   because it's not the pro, I don't know what they would call,

00:21:50   oh, they would call the iPad Studio, of course.

00:21:54   - Yeah, actually that's a good point.

00:21:56   Spoiler alert.

00:21:57   No, I think the most reasonable thing,

00:21:58   if not going the studio route,

00:21:59   is the cheapo iPad becomes the iPad Air.

00:22:04   So the thing that is now iPad becomes iPad Air.

00:22:06   - After they updated, hopefully, to the flat sides.

00:22:09   - Okay, fair, and then the iPad Air becomes just plain iPad.

00:22:12   So iPad, no qualifier is the default.

00:22:15   iPad Air becomes the cheapo.

00:22:17   iPad Mini is obviously tiny.

00:22:19   iPad Pro is if you have too much money, et cetera.

00:22:22   - They're trying to rationalize their naming.

00:22:23   Like, 'cause we know how it got to this point historically,

00:22:26   but then on top of that, what we mentioned before,

00:22:28   that the iPad updates are always weirdly staggered.

00:22:30   So they're never like in lockstep with each other.

00:22:32   There's always leapfrogging each other in odd ways

00:22:34   and encroaching on each other's supposed market segments.

00:22:37   But we know the next update is coming to rationalize.

00:22:39   They never settle down to be like,

00:22:41   here's the iPad line and all the prices and form factors make sense, especially with the whole Tim

00:22:45   Cook practice of selling the old form for years and years and years. Instead of just saying flat

00:22:52   sides everywhere on all iPads, you won't see that other design. It's like, nope, you're gonna be

00:22:55   seeing that design for a long time. It's not gonna make sense. And the names aren't gonna make sense.

00:22:59   And the update cadence isn't gonna make sense. But for the most part, they're still good products.

00:23:02   And anyway, I think I would much rather have this get the M1 than a lesser chip and economies of

00:23:09   scale making a lot of those M1s.

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00:25:07   KOLIDE dot com slash ATP today. Thank you so much to KOLIDE for sponsoring our show.

00:25:16   So then we get to the Mac, and this is where everything got really interesting to me. Let

00:25:22   me ask you, and Jon, I think you're the most likely to remember this, do you recall exactly

00:25:27   when this whole Jade, Jade 2C, Jade 4C discussion happened.

00:25:31   I believe it started with the German report.

00:25:33   - It was like last spring.

00:25:34   - Last, sometime last year.

00:25:36   - Okay, it was a long time ago.

00:25:38   - And do you have like a date on your diagram that,

00:25:41   yeah, I don't have the URL handy, but the one--

00:25:42   - Yeah, if you look at the URL to them,

00:25:45   I put the date, the date is actually in the URL,

00:25:47   and so you can see like how long it was.

00:25:49   I think my diagram was like May, maybe.

00:25:52   You can look it up, look up on my tweets in a second,

00:25:54   but I will start this section by saying

00:25:56   something that someone else noted, I forget who it was,

00:25:58   somebody on Twitter made a little montage video of,

00:26:02   oh no, it was Ben Thompson,

00:26:04   a little montage video of this presentation saying how,

00:26:07   in this presentation in particular,

00:26:09   and historically you'll recognize this pattern,

00:26:10   but in this presentation it was notable

00:26:12   because they did it almost every single time.

00:26:14   Before they would talk about a product,

00:26:16   before everything we just talked about,

00:26:18   before they talked about the iPhone,

00:26:19   the iPhone SE, the iPad Air,

00:26:22   they would start by talking about,

00:26:24   here's the Apple Silicon that lets us make this great thing.

00:26:27   Even though it's not new, you know,

00:26:28   the M1 we know about, the A15,

00:26:30   and it's not like they didn't have any Silicon announcements,

00:26:33   but they would, you know, add a Silicon section

00:26:36   to all those products just to emphasize,

00:26:37   like, you know why we're great?

00:26:39   We have great products, yeah,

00:26:40   but the reason we have great products

00:26:41   is because of great Silicon.

00:26:42   And for a while now with the Macs,

00:26:44   which obviously it makes sense

00:26:44   'cause they're transitioning the Macs

00:26:45   to these new processors,

00:26:47   they would begin the Mac section

00:26:49   by talking about a processor.

00:26:50   Before they even announced any Macs,

00:26:51   they've done it in many press presentations

00:26:53   they did it again. So let's talk about the Mac. And what's the first thing they talk

00:26:57   about? Not a Mac. They're just going to talk about chips for a while. And then you're going

00:27:01   to see, you know, the Mac that that chip is in. I mean, I don't mind that. I think it's

00:27:06   a great way to start it. We get to see Johnny Cerucci in his little lab telling us very

00:27:11   emphatically about their awesome chips. And for the most part, they are awesome. Did you

00:27:16   find the date on the? No, I'm looking as we speak in the chat room. Let me down. I'm sorry.

00:27:22   May 21, May 21 of last year.

00:27:25   So the May 21, 2021.

00:27:28   - Yeah, so that was, to refresh everyone's memory,

00:27:31   it was the German rumor and he described a bunch of stuff.

00:27:33   And then I made this diagram saying, okay,

00:27:35   if we take what is described in this rumor

00:27:38   and make pictures of it, what does it look like?

00:27:39   And I mostly did it just to see how big would they be?

00:27:43   Like, you know, at that point we just had the M1

00:27:45   and I wanted to see basically the M1 is a square this big.

00:27:48   If we map out all these rumors, how big did the squares get?

00:27:52   and figuring out that they get monstrous.

00:27:54   And we've been talking about these things

00:27:56   for over a year now.

00:27:58   And Apple has been knocking them down.

00:28:00   First, they came out with like, I said,

00:28:03   the second row of the diagram showed

00:28:05   what would eventually become to be the M1 Pro and M1 Max.

00:28:10   And then in this presentation,

00:28:11   we did the third row of the diagram,

00:28:13   which ended up being called the M1 Ultra,

00:28:16   which is more than Max

00:28:17   because Ultra is obviously more than Max.

00:28:20   The theory I had earlier today was

00:28:23   that max does not stand for maximum,

00:28:24   but is short for max a million, so it makes perfect sense.

00:28:27   (laughing)

00:28:28   Good old M1 max, old maxi.

00:28:30   - Well, and I feel like the focus on the chips

00:28:35   as the primary introduction to the computers,

00:28:38   honestly, in this day and age,

00:28:39   especially in the context of a desktop,

00:28:41   but in this day and age, I think that matters more

00:28:44   because it helps dictate what these machines actually are.

00:28:49   Like it helps dictate what class of machine you can build,

00:28:52   how good of that version,

00:28:53   or how good a version of that can exist.

00:28:56   So by leading with the chip,

00:28:59   and then by eventually showing the enclosure,

00:29:01   which we'll get to, of like,

00:29:02   well, here's just like a box, basically.

00:29:04   It's a nice looking box.

00:29:05   It's a box with a lot of useful holes on it,

00:29:07   but still just basically a little box.

00:29:10   And because when you're using a desktop, it doesn't matter.

00:29:12   Like this I feel like is such a great breath of fresh air

00:29:15   compared to the unedited Johnny Ive,

00:29:18   worst days there where the form of the machine

00:29:22   was held as higher importance and a higher priority

00:29:26   in its design than the stuff that went inside of it.

00:29:29   And by having that as their priorities,

00:29:32   like look at this gorgeous object,

00:29:34   by the way it has some Z on it,

00:29:35   but look at this gorgeous object.

00:29:37   What you ended up with is gorgeous computers

00:29:40   that didn't serve their needs as well.

00:29:42   Whereas now, they start with what kind of amazing chip

00:29:46   can we make for market segment X,

00:29:49   pro desktops or small laptops or whatever.

00:29:52   And they make the chip and they design the computer

00:29:54   around it and in certain cases,

00:29:56   we're seeing this over the last couple years,

00:29:58   in certain cases, certain parts of the enclosure

00:30:00   have to get less beautiful or bigger or heavier.

00:30:04   But that then makes a better product.

00:30:06   And I feel like Apple of seven or eight years ago

00:30:10   wouldn't have done that.

00:30:11   And they didn't do that and it was to their expense

00:30:15   and to all of our expenses.

00:30:17   Whereas now, leading with the chip

00:30:19   and designing the computer around the technical needs

00:30:22   and the user's needs, like,

00:30:24   oh, I know we'll get to this,

00:30:25   but when I saw the holes in the front of the Mac Studio,

00:30:29   I almost cried, I was so happy.

00:30:31   'Cause this is a company that is now valuing usefulness

00:30:36   and its customers' actual needs over visual purity

00:30:39   in so many ways, and this just makes me

00:30:41   so incredibly happy as a Mac user.

00:30:43   Yeah, the interesting thing about designing the chips and designing around them, getting

00:30:48   back to the diagram, is that what the rumor laid out over a year ago and what this diagram

00:30:53   shows is when Apple is making its own chips, you think, "Oh, now Apple can make whatever

00:30:59   it wants."

00:31:00   But Apple is still subject to economies of scale and all the other factors that make

00:31:06   it not possible for Apple to make a brand new custom-made chip for every single possible

00:31:12   application.

00:31:13   wisely, had a plan.

00:31:14   And the plan was, we're going to make building blocks,

00:31:17   and we're going to use those building blocks

00:31:18   to make a bunch of very similar chips

00:31:20   that we think we can assemble into final products,

00:31:24   final system-mounted chips that are appropriate

00:31:25   for the various products we have planned.

00:31:27   But they share a lot, and that's the point of that diagram.

00:31:29   The JDC die is the building block of the future

00:31:32   of high-performance ARM-based Macs,

00:31:36   and here's how you use that building block to build up.

00:31:39   We have the M1, but the M1 was not the building block.

00:31:41   It was JDC that was the building block,

00:31:43   We get the chopped version, which is the pro.

00:31:45   We get the unchopped version, which is the max.

00:31:47   And now we get the fused together,

00:31:50   unchopped versions, which is the ultra.

00:31:52   And the reason I bring this up now is because

00:31:54   at the start of this presentation, Blame Apple,

00:31:57   they did the sequencing.

00:31:59   They said, and I think this is a direct quote,

00:32:01   we're adding one last chip to the M1 family.

00:32:04   This is before they introduced the M1 Ultra, one last chip.

00:32:07   So the diagram has another row.

00:32:09   It has a fourth row because the first row is the M1

00:32:12   and then it shows the Max and the Pro,

00:32:13   and then it shows the Ultra,

00:32:14   and then it shows the, what, I don't know,

00:32:17   the Hyper, the Ultimate, the Super, the Epic.

00:32:20   - The Plaid.

00:32:22   - Yeah, we're not doing Plaid, the Ludicrous, whatever.

00:32:25   It shows, like basically, you know, like four Jade C dies.

00:32:29   What is it called, Jade 4C die or whatever?

00:32:31   - Yeah.

00:32:32   - And when we talked about this in the past,

00:32:33   it was like, look, you can't economically make

00:32:36   a chip that big.

00:32:36   You can't even economically make a chip as big as the Ultra,

00:32:39   which is why they didn't, they did the thing

00:32:40   that we're gonna talk about in a second

00:32:42   where they sort of have them communicating to each other

00:32:44   over this very high speed bus with an interconnect

00:32:45   that we talked about in past shows, right?

00:32:48   But you can't have that.

00:32:49   But so what, if they hadn't said this line,

00:32:51   it would be like, okay, well, boy,

00:32:53   I can't wait to see what the one on the Mac Pro's gonna be.

00:32:56   Is it supposed to be four of these?

00:32:57   These rumors have been dead on every step of the way

00:32:59   over the course of a year.

00:33:00   These rumors have been, that rumor from a year ago,

00:33:03   it's turning out to be true.

00:33:04   Every time, we didn't know the names, but you look at them,

00:33:06   it's like, yep, same number of execution units.

00:33:07   It's made the same way.

00:33:08   everything is just coming up just the way we expected, right?

00:33:11   But when they said one last ship, it's like,

00:33:15   well, I guess maybe there's not gonna be a four-way thing.

00:33:19   So here's what I have to say about it.

00:33:21   So in episode 453, how long ago was that?

00:33:24   - It was 21st of October of last year.

00:33:27   - Yes, back in October,

00:33:28   I tried to give a warning to everybody

00:33:31   from something I've been thinking about

00:33:33   and mulling over for a while now

00:33:36   that that rumor is so old and that the Mac Pro

00:33:40   is going to be, in theory, so late,

00:33:42   like maybe the end of this year or whatever,

00:33:44   that a lot might have changed by the time

00:33:46   we get to making the Mac Pro.

00:33:48   Like maybe almost all that diagram is gonna come true.

00:33:52   At that point, the middle part hadn't even come true yet.

00:33:54   Maybe almost all the diagrams are gonna come true,

00:33:56   but the Mac Pro one is so far off in the distance

00:33:58   that if anything is gonna vary, it's going to be that.

00:34:01   Maybe they couldn't make that in time.

00:34:03   Maybe a different roadmap interrupts that.

00:34:05   Maybe they have something else planned for the Mac Pro or whatever.

00:34:07   And so when they said, you know, and that's what I said in that episode back in October,

00:34:11   like don't put all your, even though it looks like, oh, this it's coming true.

00:34:15   Just like the diagram shows that last step is going to be a doozy.

00:34:19   So they said one last chip.

00:34:20   So that makes it sound like there won't be any more chips in the quote M1 family.

00:34:26   Now what is the M1 family?

00:34:27   The M1 family is whatever Apple says it is, but we think of it as chips made with cores

00:34:32   based on the M1 because the M1 had the Ice Storm and Fire Storm cores. Those are the

00:34:35   things that make up Jade Sea Die and all that stuff. So lots of people saw that and said,

00:34:42   "Oh, the Mac Pro, it's going to have an M2-based system on its ship with 40 cores." And as

00:34:49   we've discussed in past shows, I will be extremely surprised if a 40-core M2-based ship ships

00:34:56   this year for the Mac Pro,

00:35:00   because that tends not to be how silicon is done.

00:35:03   You don't say we have a brand new chip

00:35:05   and the first one we're gonna make has 40 cores.

00:35:07   Like you usually start smaller and you build up.

00:35:10   You start with the small chip and you make it bigger,

00:35:12   slightly bigger, slightly bigger,

00:35:13   'cause you get better at making the components of that chip.

00:35:15   Now, just because that's the way it's happened

00:35:17   in the past doesn't mean it's physically impossible

00:35:19   to do that.

00:35:20   It is plausible that it could, but I would be very surprised

00:35:23   and I think a lot of people would be very surprised

00:35:24   just because historically that's not how chip making

00:35:26   has gone. So before we, I know we're getting derailed into Mac Pro territory already, but

00:35:31   it's their fault for bringing this stuff up. So I just do want to talk about the possibilities

00:35:35   for the Mac Pro. This is the last chip in the M1 family. One possibility is the Mac

00:35:39   Pro just has an M1 Ultra. That's crappy because the M1 Ultra does not have enough GPU cores

00:35:45   to be remotely competitive with the current Mac Pro, right? So I hope that's not the case,

00:35:51   but hey, that could be a thing, who knows? And by the way, the reason we're talking about

00:35:54   Mac Pro, as Apple later confirms at the very end of the presentation, that the Mac Pro

00:35:58   is absolutely coming.

00:35:59   So this is not speculation.

00:36:01   Second possibility, put two M1 Ultras in there.

00:36:03   Oh, we didn't make another chip.

00:36:05   It's just two M1 Ultras, and they're connected by a different interconnect between the two

00:36:09   M1 Ultras.

00:36:11   Or it's two M1 Ultras back to back and stuck together and we don't call it a new chip,

00:36:15   it's just M1 Ultra, L1 Ultra X2.

00:36:18   That would have 40 cores, it would be plausible, it would be fine.

00:36:22   And then the final possibility is the Mac Pro is not going to have an M1-based chip

00:36:26   in it at all.

00:36:27   It's going to have an M2-based thing with 40 core.

00:36:31   And it's going to come out in 2023?

00:36:32   I don't even know.

00:36:34   So Apple continues to be extremely frustrating when it comes to the Mac Pro by like, if they

00:36:41   hadn't said this, we would all just be blissfully unaware and be like, "Here we go, on our way

00:36:44   to 40 core.

00:36:45   It's going to be great."

00:36:46   But then they just have to throw this in there and say, "You thought you knew what the Mac

00:36:49   Pro was going to be, but you actually don't."

00:36:50   Or maybe you do, but we're just screwing with you.

00:36:52   Haha, one last chip in the M1 family.

00:36:54   So that was frustrating/intriguing.

00:36:57   On the subject of having an actual, like, 4 J4C die, like the possibility of that, Hector

00:37:04   Martin, who's been porting Linux to the M whatever chips, was looking at the M1 Macs

00:37:09   and had this to say in a tweet.

00:37:11   The IRQ controller registers on the M1 Macs go die 0, die 1, and then other stuff.

00:37:16   There is literally no space for dies beyond those two to exist in there.

00:37:20   If they somehow glued four chips together, one pair wouldn't be able to send interrupts

00:37:23   to the other.

00:37:24   That doesn't make any sense.

00:37:25   And conversely, the IRQ controller claims the theoretical design max is 8 dies, so it's

00:37:29   not like they were stuck with two.

00:37:30   They could have instantiated with room for more dies, but they didn't.

00:37:33   So the implication seems to be, both physically speaking and looking at the innards of the

00:37:37   chip, that the M1 max at the very least, which is what he was looking at at the time because

00:37:41   he hadn't seen the M1 Ultra then, was not designed to have more than two.

00:37:45   And lo and behold, the M1 Ultra is two M1 Maxes

00:37:48   stuck together with this cool internet connect thing, right?

00:37:52   So can there physically be four M1 Maxes stuck together?

00:37:56   Is M1 Ultra really just two M1 Maxes stuck together?

00:37:59   It sure looks like it.

00:38:01   So that's another nail in the,

00:38:03   like there's not going to be four, you know,

00:38:06   Jade 4C die in the way that you think,

00:38:08   just because it seems like the M1 Max wasn't made to do that

00:38:11   and the M1 Ultra does not do that.

00:38:13   And it doesn't seem like there's a way to make that work.

00:38:15   Maybe they can be back to back,

00:38:17   but it just doesn't seem like that's in the cards

00:38:19   from what we know now.

00:38:20   It's hard to know because we don't know what, you know,

00:38:22   they're doing for the Mac Pro.

00:38:24   The second thing is, if it's two M1 Ultras,

00:38:26   it's like, oh, we didn't make a new chip,

00:38:27   it's just two M1 Ultras,

00:38:28   how do the two M1 Ultras talk to each other?

00:38:31   You would think that's not a big problem.

00:38:32   That's been multi-processor Macs for a long time.

00:38:34   That used to be the way they made high-performance Macs.

00:38:36   You get multiple processors, right?

00:38:38   But those Macs did not have the RAM stuck, you know,

00:38:41   wedged, welded to the CPU.

00:38:45   And so what you'd end up with is a good old NUMA.

00:38:48   NUMA?

00:38:48   NUMA, NUMA?

00:38:49   There was another meme about that somewhere.

00:38:50   Yodel-a-hee.

00:38:52   Sorry, go ahead.

00:38:53   P-E-C.

00:38:54   NUMA stands for N-U-M-A. It's Non-Uniform Memory Access.

00:38:57   What it basically means is that if you had two M1 ultras

00:38:59   in there, they would each come with their own complement of RAM

00:39:02   that is sort of unchangeable and connected to the CPU.

00:39:05   It's the Unified Memory Architecture, right?

00:39:07   But they would each have their own pool of it.

00:39:09   And so if you wanted to have a Mac Pro with 256 gigabytes

00:39:12   of RAM, you'd have one M1 Ultra with 128.

00:39:15   Another M1 Ultra with 128, but each one of those M1 Ultras

00:39:19   would be really close to its own 128,

00:39:21   but theoretically, not physically speaking,

00:39:25   but like latency-wise, farther from the other 128, right?

00:39:30   And that's what non-uniform memory access means.

00:39:32   It means that you have some pool of memory

00:39:33   that's quote unquote close to you that you can get at fast,

00:39:36   and there's some other pool of memory that's far away.

00:39:38   When you had traditional multiprocessor chips,

00:39:40   instead you'd have two CPUs,

00:39:42   so that you'd have one pool of memory

00:39:43   that they both access that they were essentially both

00:39:46   uniformly far from, right?

00:39:48   That the unified memory architecture,

00:39:49   having the RAM really close to the system on a chip

00:39:51   is great and gives incredible memory bandwidth.

00:39:53   But if you put two M1 Ultras in there,

00:39:56   now half your RAM is really fast

00:39:57   and half your RAM is less fast.

00:39:59   Now maybe they have a cool new interconnect

00:40:00   that is different than the one that we're gonna talk about

00:40:03   in a second for the M1 Ultra,

00:40:05   that it connects the two M1 Ultras so it's not that bad

00:40:08   and the distant RAM is not that bad

00:40:10   and it just looks like one pool of memory,

00:40:12   you know, just like the M1 Ultra does.

00:40:13   We don't know.

00:40:14   We still have to wait for that Mac Pro,

00:40:15   but it is mysterious and intriguing

00:40:17   and slightly concerning to me.

00:40:20   We'll get to that maybe at the end

00:40:21   when I talk about the possibilities for Mac Pro stuff.

00:40:23   But in the meantime, let's look at the M1 Ultra

00:40:26   and what they actually did do by,

00:40:29   I keep trying so hard for this whole section

00:40:31   not to say they took two M1 Maxes

00:40:33   and put them butt to butt

00:40:33   because it's a movie reference

00:40:35   and I don't want to do it and it's unseemly,

00:40:38   but they really did.

00:40:39   So Casey, please save me.

00:40:40   - It's okay, butts are funny.

00:40:42   So I remember, and I will be the first to tell you,

00:40:45   I have the world's worst memory,

00:40:46   but I swear that when you were working

00:40:48   on your chip diagrams that eventually made it onto shirts,

00:40:51   and now we don't know what we're gonna do about shirts yet,

00:40:53   but--

00:40:54   - Should we just make pants?

00:40:56   - Somebody suggested a onesie.

00:40:58   - One C, raincoats, yeah, there's all sorts of ideas.

00:41:00   - No, 'cause each leg is an M1 max, and--

00:41:04   - They're not that long.

00:41:05   - They just join in the middle, shorts,

00:41:06   then we should make shorts.

00:41:08   - Yeah, that might work.

00:41:09   - That's definitely it.

00:41:10   What do you call it when you have the tails on your coat?

00:41:13   Isn't there a name for that other than tail?

00:41:14   - I think it's called coat tails.

00:41:15   - Yeah, fan boats and coat tails.

00:41:17   - There you go, title.

00:41:19   So I remember, I swear to you,

00:41:22   I remember that you were working on these diagrams

00:41:24   and you were looking closely at the diagrams

00:41:26   that Apple had showed and like the scans that they had showed

00:41:31   and you had said to us, I could swear that it was John

00:41:34   that had said to us, there's this section off at the bottom

00:41:38   or left or right or wherever it was

00:41:39   that they never really explained what is this about?

00:41:42   And I swear we talked about this at some point on some show.

00:41:46   - We did, but it wasn't like I discovered it.

00:41:48   Everyone was talking about it.

00:41:49   In fact, on the very last episode,

00:41:51   I just mentioned casually offhand,

00:41:52   and of course there's the chip-to-chip interconnect.

00:41:54   So it becomes so accepted as like, you know,

00:41:56   accepted wisdom based on the shots

00:41:58   that there was some kind of interchip interconnect.

00:42:01   That was sort of an open secret, you know.

00:42:04   But yeah, we did talk about that

00:42:06   back when the original diagrams came out,

00:42:07   that we still don't have the mystery solved

00:42:09   of why the execution units were repeated

00:42:10   and whether they were trying to hide the internet

00:42:12   or whether they just have redundant stuff.

00:42:14   We don't know all the answers, but anyway,

00:42:15   this is not a shock.

00:42:16   What they actually did was not a shock.

00:42:17   They have two M1 maxes and what do they call the thing?

00:42:19   Ultra fusion.

00:42:21   - And it's a die to die interconnect.

00:42:23   - Yeah, I feel like they've used the word fusion

00:42:25   like one too many times.

00:42:27   - Well, I mean, worse have stopped having all meaning

00:42:29   when the max is not the biggest chip.

00:42:31   - It's Maximilian, it's just his name.

00:42:34   - All right, so Sroushi says,

00:42:35   "The ultra fusion architecture uses a silicon interposer

00:42:38   that has twice the connection density of any technology available. It connects over 10,000

00:42:43   signals and provides an enormous 2.5 terabytes per second of low latency interprocessor bandwidth

00:42:50   between the two dies using very little power. That's more than four times the bandwidth of

00:42:54   the leading multi-chip connector technology. The result is an SoC with blazing performance due to

00:42:59   low latency, massive bandwidth, and incredible power efficiency. And thanks to the magic of

00:43:03   of the UltraFusion architecture, it behaves like a single chip to software and preserves

00:43:09   the benefits of unified memory.

00:43:11   This is cool stuff.

00:43:12   It really, really is.

00:43:13   Yeah, that's the big advantage, in particular for the GPU stuff, because typically like

00:43:17   dual GPU things, like the games would have to be aware of it or whatever.

00:43:20   So even though this is, it's two M1 Maxes shoved together, they're shoved together and

00:43:26   sort of connected in such a way that you can just think of it as one giant chip.

00:43:30   There's no way that you could economically make a jade 4c die and apparently making a jade 2c die is also not particularly economical

00:43:36   So they made them separate and they just take the good ones and they stick them together

00:43:39   With this interconnecting technology and I believe we had someone write in

00:43:42   With I think was the first time you know

00:43:44   Whatever is six months eight months ago the first time I saw the word silicon interposer

00:43:48   And here it is coming back up again

00:43:50   Because we were discussing like how you could when we talk about city of chips how you can connect all this stuff together

00:43:55   together. If you have them as separate dies, how do you get them into one package so that

00:44:00   they talk to each other in a high-efficiency way? This kind of technology was one of the

00:44:04   options, so lo and behold, here it is. This is things that people don't need to know about,

00:44:09   but it just goes to show that Apple is not immune from the economics of making silicon

00:44:12   chips. They have just found very clever ways to maximize performance while not breaking

00:44:18   the bank.

00:44:19   Yep. So the M1 Ultra can have up to 128 gigs of unified memory, a 20 core CPU with 16 high

00:44:27   performance and 4 high efficiency cores, a 64 core GPU, a 32 core neural engine, 800

00:44:36   gigs a second of memory bandwidth, which according to Apple is 10 times the latest PC desktop

00:44:40   chip. This thing sounds like it is going to scream. And as the owner of a mid-range M1

00:44:47   I can tell you I don't exactly long for power today. I cannot fathom what this is gonna be like

00:44:53   Yeah, it's a j2c die here. It is all the specs are the same

00:44:57   We'll get to the more interesting parts of the again the economics of this product

00:45:01   But if you get one where all the parts work you get 2x the parts you're getting one max

00:45:07   and and the GPUs more or less scale linearly like you would expect and the multi core scares scales according to your workloads and

00:45:15   You know we're continuing along on track despite the fact that Apple essentially totally derailed the train at the start of this by saying this

00:45:21   Is the last m1 chip and we don't know what that means?

00:45:23   Indeed so then we had a testimonial which normally I wouldn't call out

00:45:28   But I did enjoy that it was all women during that testimonial and this was this was recorded released

00:45:33   I should say on International Women's Day, so that's pretty cool, and then speaking of women we had a friend of other shows

00:45:43   - Well, hold on.

00:45:44   Colleen was the product manager at the Mac studio.

00:45:46   She's a friend of ours.

00:45:48   That's it.

00:45:48   (laughing)

00:45:49   I'll declare that right now.

00:45:50   Never met her, never talked to her.

00:45:51   She's a friend of ours.

00:45:52   - You know, if only there was an episode

00:45:53   where we discussed who is and is not a friend,

00:45:56   but I guess she is a friend of ours,

00:45:58   whether or not we are a friend of hers,

00:45:59   or maybe, do I get that backwards?

00:46:00   You know what I'm saying.

00:46:01   One way or the other.

00:46:02   It's a single--

00:46:03   - Is this like a mob thing?

00:46:04   Like what?

00:46:05   - It's a linked list.

00:46:06   - It's a linked list.

00:46:07   - Single linked list, not a double linked list.

00:46:08   - Not a double linked list.

00:46:10   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway, moving on.

00:46:12   So Colleen Novielli introduces the Max Studio.

00:46:14   There were some rumblings in the days leading up

00:46:16   to the event that Studio was going to play a role in this

00:46:20   and there was going to be a product or products announced.

00:46:23   Honestly, I don't even care about the Max Studio.

00:46:24   Can we talk about the next thing they talked about?

00:46:25   - Wait, we'll get there, we'll get there.

00:46:27   - I'm kidding, kidding.

00:46:28   - Let me start on the Max Studio.

00:46:29   First off, I want to say that it's a shame

00:46:31   that we once again just missed the last minute rumors.

00:46:33   But I mean, it's hard to pick the right day

00:46:35   for the new podcast.

00:46:36   I think we still have the right one

00:46:37   'cause we tend to go after events.

00:46:38   But it seems like whenever there's gonna be an event,

00:46:41   we record an episode,

00:46:42   and then the late-breaking rumors come out,

00:46:44   and all the late-breaking rumors are like,

00:46:45   "Studio, studio, studio!"

00:46:46   So if you listen to the last episode,

00:46:50   you'd be like, "Wow, these guys got things totally wrong."

00:46:51   But the thing is, by the time the event came,

00:46:54   if you had read the rumors, a lot of the stuff leaked out.

00:46:57   And obviously, we've been talking about this for over a year.

00:46:59   Like the rumor, I think it was also from Germin,

00:47:01   the quote-unquote half-size Mac Pro.

00:47:03   And then eventually, in the week leading up to it,

00:47:05   we got the tall Mac Mini.

00:47:07   They're gonna do a tall Mac Mini,

00:47:08   is the tall Mac Mini the same thing

00:47:10   as the half-size Mac Pro?

00:47:12   All sorts of late-breaking stuff.

00:47:14   All extremely accurate, and before we start talking

00:47:18   about the reality of this machine,

00:47:19   I just wanna say that I think a tall Mac Mini

00:47:23   is not attractive.

00:47:25   - No, it is not. - I'm sorry.

00:47:26   I'm sorry, Mac Studio.

00:47:28   - It is not. - I agree.

00:47:30   When they were doing that video

00:47:31   where they were showing it in everyone's workspaces

00:47:33   right after the introduction of it,

00:47:35   I think it kind of looks bad sitting under a monitor

00:47:38   on your desk. - It's not great.

00:47:40   It's not great.

00:47:41   - And I am so happy that this computer is what it is

00:47:44   in so many other ways, but I do agree it is not attractive.

00:47:48   - Yeah, and again, I'm not slamming it.

00:47:51   I'm saying this is not a beauty contest.

00:47:52   Like Marco was saying, I don't actually care

00:47:55   that you've made the most beautiful object.

00:47:56   I care what's inside.

00:47:57   It's what's inside that counts

00:47:59   and also the ports to get to it.

00:48:01   Both of those things, just like people.

00:48:03   (laughing)

00:48:05   All right, Marlon will appreciate that one, okay.

00:48:08   (laughing)

00:48:11   But I really do think that this,

00:48:14   that there is certain something missing

00:48:17   from the design of this product.

00:48:18   Now part of it, granted, part of it is because

00:48:20   the Mac Mini has been a product for so long

00:48:22   and we've become so accustomed to it,

00:48:23   but to that I will say the Mac Mini has gone through

00:48:26   many iterations of its rounded rectangle extrusion form

00:48:29   and almost all the iterations have looked

00:48:31   progressively nicer.

00:48:33   And maybe it's because they've gotten lower and wider,

00:48:35   like the sports car thing, you make a car lower and wider,

00:48:37   people find it more attractive, right?

00:48:39   So the Mac Mini has gotten lower and wider,

00:48:41   and I think it's looked cooler.

00:48:42   And this reversed that trend,

00:48:43   by taking it lower and wider and saying,

00:48:44   "Now you are a top hat!"

00:48:46   (laughing)

00:48:48   It's just like, there's no,

00:48:50   and I know they pointed out like,

00:48:52   that it's made of one thing of aluminum,

00:48:53   I'm sure it's gonna be solid as a bank vault,

00:48:55   I'm sure it's going to fulfill its function well,

00:48:57   like I'm not saying this is a bad computer design.

00:49:00   And I'm not just saying that my Mac Pro is prettier,

00:49:03   although it absolutely is,

00:49:05   for a bazillion times the price and half the speed.

00:49:06   But anyway.

00:49:07   (laughing)

00:49:08   - Don't forget the power consumption.

00:49:10   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:11   This is not a particularly attractive computer

00:49:13   and I kind of wish that they had made it a little bit nice.

00:49:18   That's it, I don't wanna slam it too much.

00:49:20   It's just my personal opinion.

00:49:22   I think it gets the job done.

00:49:23   And the thing is, it is small, it is not big,

00:49:24   it's not gonna dominate your desk.

00:49:26   So I think it's fine.

00:49:27   - No, I completely agree with you.

00:49:28   and I feel like part of the problem I have with it

00:49:31   is the front of it has so much just dead space on it.

00:49:34   As tacky as I would normally find this to be,

00:49:37   I almost wonder if, what do you call,

00:49:39   is it embossed that's on the bottom of these laptops,

00:49:41   the new laptops where--

00:49:42   - No, no, no, no.

00:49:43   - No, just put like studio on the front of there, embossed.

00:49:46   Oh, come on, at least it would break up all that dead space.

00:49:49   - How about RGB lighting?

00:49:50   - Yeah, right, that makes everything better, so I hear.

00:49:52   - How about a series of really complicated holes

00:49:55   that people can't figure out how to make?

00:49:56   - Yeah, all the tryptophobia people really messes them up.

00:50:00   - Right, right, right.

00:50:00   - Everything's growing on you.

00:50:01   - I gotta say, when we started this episode

00:50:04   almost an hour ago, I did not expect

00:50:06   that by the midway point, maybe,

00:50:09   we would be wearing top hats and have coat tails

00:50:12   and be getting on airboats.

00:50:13   Like, this is a journey that I was not prepared for.

00:50:15   - The Mac studio has a five head.

00:50:18   - What? - A what?

00:50:19   - A five head, wasn't that a Seinfeld episode?

00:50:21   - Oh, I don't think so.

00:50:22   - It's like a forehead, but taller, it's a five head.

00:50:24   (laughing)

00:50:25   - This sounds like something that would be edited out,

00:50:27   like the cutting room floor of the Seinfeld writers room.

00:50:30   - I'm not making this up, five head is a thing.

00:50:32   - All right, well moving on, moving on, moving on.

00:50:34   So this is the Mac Studio.

00:50:37   I gotta say, I did not buy one of these,

00:50:39   and if this had come out before the 14-inch MacBook Pro,

00:50:44   which by the way, still freaking love,

00:50:48   I would have been really tempted by this,

00:50:50   even despite the relatively hefty price tag,

00:50:52   which we'll get to.

00:50:53   But I'm living a pretty good life right now and I don't want to mess with my system.

00:50:57   And honestly, I don't long for power right now. Remind me of this in like a year when they come

00:51:02   out with an M2 and I must have it. But sitting here now, I really don't long for power. And as

00:51:07   much as I am so genuinely excited about this machine in so many ways, they did exactly what

00:51:14   I/we want. And this is what you were saying earlier, Marco. They didn't do what they wanted,

00:51:19   largely, they did what I want and what you want and what we want and that is so exciting.

00:51:25   And this is the same thing we saw with the laptops. They were giving us our ports back.

00:51:29   They're giving us things that help us do our jobs. Imagine this, a bicycle for the mind that helps

00:51:34   you actually do your friggin job. Like how exciting is this? We're back and better than ever, baby.

00:51:40   So I did not buy one of these. Marco, how many have you bought?

00:51:44   Just last week, I said I have been very happy

00:51:48   with my desktop laptop and separate laptop situation.

00:51:51   Although I have to format and pave the laptop laptop

00:51:55   because I got some weird stuff going on.

00:51:57   Like it doesn't get, I don't know, sidetrack.

00:52:00   It's like I have to reboot it for FaceTime calls

00:52:03   to come in on it.

00:52:04   - Oh cool. - Like it doesn't get alerted.

00:52:06   It's as if it's in Do Not Disturb but it isn't.

00:52:08   Anyway, I don't know what that's about.

00:52:10   So I got a format and reinstall.

00:52:12   There's a couple other weird things

00:52:13   about that installation, but I don't know how it happened.

00:52:15   It was clean.

00:52:16   Anyway, so, but I was just saying last week

00:52:19   how my desktop laptop, I was super happy with this setup.

00:52:24   I too have chosen not to buy the Mac Studio right now.

00:52:27   (gasps)

00:52:29   - I'm stunned.

00:52:30   - Well, because here's, you know, in a world,

00:52:33   in a world where the laptops were

00:52:37   what they were a few years ago.

00:52:38   Hot, compromised, loud, you know,

00:52:42   Desktops could outperform them pretty well

00:52:44   for the kind of tasks I was doing.

00:52:47   The laptops of a few years ago sucked.

00:52:49   The laptops now don't, they're really great.

00:52:53   And what you were just saying a few minutes ago,

00:52:54   how you're not really hurting for performance,

00:52:56   most of the time I'm not either.

00:52:58   And in most of the ways that I would be hurting

00:53:00   for performance, I'm not even sure how much more

00:53:04   of the same CPU cores would help at this point,

00:53:06   because I'm usually not waiting on all my cores

00:53:09   to do something anymore.

00:53:10   Like the M1 Max is awesome.

00:53:13   Like I really am not hurting for performance

00:53:16   most of the time.

00:53:17   And again, and I think if I were to buy

00:53:19   like the M1 Ultra Max Studio,

00:53:22   I think it would drop my build times by maybe 30% at most.

00:53:27   But they're already so short that I'm not sure

00:53:29   if that's worth the downside of not having it

00:53:32   be a laptop anymore.

00:53:33   And because the MacBook Pro seems to suffer

00:53:37   from almost none of the shortcomings

00:53:40   that laptops used to suffer from,

00:53:41   like I would actually be losing functionality

00:53:44   by going to a desktop right now

00:53:46   because I do still go back and forth

00:53:48   between a couple of places on a regular basis.

00:53:50   I do still very occasionally travel,

00:53:53   although I haven't been in an airplane

00:53:54   in a couple of years.

00:53:55   But it is really nice to be able to just take my laptop,

00:54:00   my desktop laptop with me and to have all my files

00:54:04   as a desktop when I do travel.

00:54:06   But then, you know, but to not be constantly unplugging it

00:54:09   and plugging it as my only portable thing.

00:54:11   Anyway, so I really do love the desktop laptop lifestyle.

00:54:16   And the other factor that will play into this

00:54:19   significantly in the latter part of the show

00:54:22   is that I already have the XDR.

00:54:24   I kind of already made this ridiculous setup,

00:54:28   and I love it.

00:54:29   And anything I would change about it

00:54:31   with what's available right now,

00:54:33   I think would make it worse in some way that I care about.

00:54:37   without making it better enough

00:54:39   to make the change worthwhile.

00:54:41   Now that being said, if I was still on an Intel Mac

00:54:45   and I was looking to get a new desktop setup,

00:54:48   maybe I'd make a different decision.

00:54:50   - Just hypothetically.

00:54:51   - Right.

00:54:53   Suppose I had bought a very, very large--

00:54:56   - Very, very expensive. - Very large, very expensive,

00:54:59   costs more than my first car, Mac Pro.

00:55:03   - Just hypothetically.

00:55:05   - Just hypothetically.

00:55:06   this would be a really compelling option.

00:55:09   Especially if I wasn't really using

00:55:13   what makes the Mac Pro currently differentiated,

00:55:16   like card slots.

00:55:19   I think this would be very compelling.

00:55:22   But right now my personal needs

00:55:24   don't really have a role for this.

00:55:26   But that being said, I am so happy this exists.

00:55:30   - Yup. - And because,

00:55:31   I've seen a number of reactions to this.

00:55:34   kind of themes to the reactions.

00:55:37   Some of the themes immediately,

00:55:39   about half the people who I saw react

00:55:42   to the price of the Max Studio,

00:55:43   we'll talk about the monitor later,

00:55:44   but the price of the Max Studio,

00:55:46   about half the people were like, yeah, that's about right.

00:55:49   And the other half were like, oh my God,

00:55:52   $4,000 for the big one, and then,

00:55:56   and you know, people even freaking out

00:55:57   about $2,000 for the base model,

00:55:59   and it's like, you know, we've been waiting

00:56:02   for a reasonably priced pro level performance

00:56:06   Mac desktop for a long time.

00:56:08   The last time a reasonably priced pro level

00:56:12   performance Mac desktop existed was, I believe,

00:56:16   the 2006 Mac Pro where there was a configuration

00:56:21   you could get for like 1800 or $2000.

00:56:24   And that was more than a decade ago.

00:56:27   And so to have this come out and be that level

00:56:31   performance, the base model I'm talking about first, that level of performance with just

00:56:35   the M1 Macs in a very port-covered, well-cooled desktop for $2,000 in today's dollars, that's

00:56:45   pretty good. Now I understand that PC hardware is cheaper. Yeah, you get what you pay for

00:56:51   right now. PC hardware right now sucks, and Mac hardware right now is really good. So,

00:56:57   You know, good for you on your PC.

00:56:59   By the way, I own PCs.

00:57:00   Actually, I just bought, I had to replace Adam's desktop,

00:57:03   or Adam's gaming laptop.

00:57:04   It's really having problems now.

00:57:06   And I'm pretty sure blue screening

00:57:08   when I plug in an HDMI cable

00:57:09   is probably not a software problem.

00:57:12   But anyway, so that's sort of the day.

00:57:14   But so I say this as a PC owner.

00:57:16   We now own four PCs.

00:57:19   - Oh my gosh.

00:57:20   (laughing)

00:57:21   - And as a multi Mac owner, obviously over time,

00:57:25   PC hardware, you're getting what you pay for

00:57:28   with a lot of that stuff or less.

00:57:30   And this hardware, just the base model alone here,

00:57:35   the base model of $2,000 for an M1 Max,

00:57:38   32 gigs of RAM, 512 gig SSD, that's an awesome machine

00:57:43   for what is a very reasonable price for what it is.

00:57:47   And if you are balking at that wanting like,

00:57:51   I want the XMac, an expendable tower

00:57:53   made of component parts,

00:57:54   Look, that doesn't exist, and this shows you

00:57:56   that will never exist, but the role that we all

00:57:59   always wanted the XMac to fill, to Apple was mid-priced,

00:58:04   but to many of us was high-priced.

00:58:07   I didn't have a Mac Pro until 2008,

00:58:08   'cause in 2006, I couldn't afford one yet.

00:58:11   It was $2,000.

00:58:13   I couldn't afford $2,000 in 2006.

00:58:15   And I was so upset in 2008 when it came out,

00:58:18   when the next one came out and it was like 2,800

00:58:21   for the configuration that was reasonable.

00:58:22   But now it's 12 years later, 14, whatever it is,

00:58:27   I can't do math, 14 years later,

00:58:29   to be $2,000 for what this base model offers,

00:58:33   and then to have some headroom on that,

00:58:36   that if you want or need more than that,

00:58:39   you can spec it up.

00:58:41   Four grand for the highest CPU,

00:58:45   or almost highest CPU, I guess there's the extra GPU model

00:58:48   for an extra thousand bucks, whatever,

00:58:49   but most people don't need that.

00:58:51   Four grand for the highest CPU option basically.

00:58:55   64 gigs RAM, one terabyte SSD, that's really good.

00:59:00   If I look back at how I've configured like my iMacs

00:59:04   over the years, where you know,

00:59:06   back when I was using those as my desktops,

00:59:08   configuring an iMac really high to this level

00:59:11   of performance or to these capacities

00:59:14   is usually more than this.

00:59:16   And yes, this doesn't have a screen,

00:59:18   we'll get to that in a few minutes.

00:59:20   But even when you factor in the price

00:59:22   of the future discussed screen,

00:59:24   this is actually pretty much in line

00:59:27   with where things have been for quite some time

00:59:30   once you consider what you're actually getting.

00:59:32   Again, compare spec for spec and consider inflation.

00:59:36   I think these are very, very well positioned.

00:59:41   I think what you're getting for the price is very good

00:59:44   and it is right in line with what we would expect

00:59:48   Apple to charge for such a thing without being super

00:59:53   outrageous on that scale. So I thumbs up for me. I'm not buying

00:59:57   one yet. But thumbs up for me regardless.

00:59:59   You know, I have a I have a couple of points here. First of

01:00:01   all, I would like to publicly acknowledge your restraints

01:00:04   because this is a multi day only been a couple of days for Marco

01:00:10   that's I mean, Marco is usually measured in minutes, not days.

01:00:13   I mean, this is this thing where he has kind of like a delay

01:00:16   period where he thinks about it and tries not to give in but we'll see how long it lasts.

01:00:19   When Kramer walks in, I'm out. You know, it's like, exactly.

01:00:23   Well, and the other thing, the other thing I wanted to point out is I, you've changed,

01:00:27   you've introduced a little bit of new thought technology for me. So, um, I, one of the things

01:00:32   that the Mac studio and the, and I'm jumping ahead ever so slightly the apparent death of the 27 inch

01:00:39   iMac is that it leaves a hole in the lineup. And I think that hole is there, but it's not quite as

01:00:45   big or wide, if you will, as I thought it was because I'm thinking back to my Mac Pro,

01:00:50   which I loved so much. I really did. But I believe, and this was somewhat my own choice

01:00:54   because of the spec I bought. But I think I paid like seventy five hundred dollars for

01:00:58   that thing or something like that. Whatever the number was, it was ridiculous. And for

01:01:03   the Mac Studio with the M1 Ultra and the I don't know, this thing I'm excited to talk

01:01:09   about in a minute, the studio display, you know, you're looking at what? A little less

01:01:14   than $6,000. I mean, I'm not trying to say the $6,000 isn't a crap ton of money.

01:01:18   It absolutely is a crap ton of money, but this is not an unprecedented price point

01:01:25   for the performance that you're getting. And I think you're right, Marco. I didn't

01:01:28   really think of it that way, but this is, this is, you know, the, the computing, the

01:01:32   compute component of an iMac Pro in spirit, if you look at it in the right

01:01:37   light. Yeah, and, and, yeah, I mean, you know, look back, you know, the iMac Pros that

01:01:41   I've bought over the years, usually they cost so much

01:01:43   I wouldn't even want to discuss it in public.

01:01:46   I've usually, well over $5,000 in almost every case.

01:01:51   I think my most expensive might have been like 6,800

01:01:54   or something when I got the four terabyte SSD

01:01:56   back when that was fairly new.

01:01:58   That's what, you get a lot for that.

01:01:59   But going back to this, again we'll talk about the display.

01:02:03   The display being, in my opinion, only,

01:02:06   and we'll get to that too, $1,700 or whatever,

01:02:09   1600, 700, whatever it is.

01:02:10   You know, the price of the M1 Max, not the super big CPU,

01:02:16   so base model Max Studio plus Max Studio Display,

01:02:20   you're looking at like $3,700.

01:02:22   That's actually really not bad when you look at the price

01:02:27   of what a 27-inch iMac spec to this level actually cost.

01:02:31   - Well, and the iMac Pro started at five grand, didn't it?

01:02:34   Or am I making that up? - Yep.

01:02:36   - But it came in space gray, I mean, let's be fair.

01:02:37   - Well, that is actually a genuine point.

01:02:39   - That makes it tremendously faster.

01:02:41   - Well, it makes it better looking.

01:02:42   - Should have had racing stripes

01:02:43   or maybe a little fan on the back.

01:02:45   - All right, easy big fella, easy.

01:02:46   - You two have made a mockery of my show notes here.

01:02:48   Let me try to get this back on track.

01:02:50   - Sorry, dad.

01:02:52   - Yeah, I was gonna say in the pre-flight,

01:02:53   I meant to say, but I totally forgot in the pre-flight

01:02:55   that we should talk about what we did and didn't buy

01:02:57   and say that to the end, but you two didn't do that,

01:02:58   but I'm going to do that.

01:02:59   So you'll have to wait till the end

01:03:00   to hear what's going on over here in terms of purchases.

01:03:04   So one tidbit about the Mac Studio,

01:03:07   If you get it with the M1 Ultra, it's two pounds heavier

01:03:10   because they use a copper heat sink instead of aluminum.

01:03:12   I like the fact that the Verge article,

01:03:13   they got a quote from Apple about this,

01:03:16   giving the explanation.

01:03:17   That's Apple's explanation, by the way,

01:03:19   that it has a copper heat sink.

01:03:20   - That's fantastic.

01:03:21   I was wondering, if they just gave you half of a heat sink,

01:03:24   you got the left half?

01:03:26   - Right.

01:03:27   Remember, well, yeah.

01:03:29   We'll see when they crack these things open,

01:03:32   but whoever authored the Verge article,

01:03:35   they did the work, they did the due diligence.

01:03:36   They got the quote from Apple that said it's because of a larger copper heat sink, whatever.

01:03:42   And then they said, "At room temperature," this is the Verge article, "At room temperature,

01:03:46   copper is 8.96 grams per cubic centimeter, whereas aluminum is 2.70 grams.

01:03:49   That means that the design of the heat sink is exactly the same.

01:03:51   The copper version would be over three times heavier than the aluminum one."

01:03:55   Yay!

01:03:56   Yay, physics and chemistry.

01:03:57   You make mine with the tungsten heat sink.

01:03:59   I want to see how that feels.

01:04:01   So that's cool.

01:04:02   Just to get to what this machine actually has on it, it's got on the back of it so much,

01:04:06   just so many ports, just the best, all the ports.

01:04:09   I'm so happy.

01:04:10   And they're going from left to right and panning across them and, sorry not panning, sorry,

01:04:13   sorry Todd, when they were doing a tracking shot going across the ports in the back.

01:04:19   It's got four Thunderbolt ports, right?

01:04:21   Wait, what's the difference?

01:04:22   Is panning like your feet are still but the camera moves, whereas tracking your feet move?

01:04:26   Panning is you have the camera on a tripod and you twist it on the tripod.

01:04:29   Right.

01:04:30   is you have the camera on a set of wheels and you move it in parallel with the, you

01:04:34   know. It's like moving versus strafing in a first-person shooter? Yeah, looking, looking,

01:04:38   looking versus strafing. Yeah, yeah. Moving forward and back, that's dollying, right?

01:04:42   And then tracking. I don't have the diagram in front of me, Casey, don't quiz me. I know,

01:04:45   I'm looking for it, I'm looking for it. Here it is, here it is. Alright, we'll put in the

01:04:47   show notes. I'm so sorry, Todd, I apologize on behalf of all of us. We are, we are all,

01:04:51   we are a mess. Send the joke one that has the, the, what is that, the director's version,

01:04:56   and other directors are the--

01:04:59   - Camera movement guide versus client camera movement guide.

01:05:02   - There you go, client.

01:05:03   That wasn't director,

01:05:03   'cause that would be the directors, no, these things,

01:05:05   but clients don't.

01:05:05   Anyway. - We're not getting sidetracked.

01:05:07   - Yeah, 10 gig ethernet,

01:05:08   that shows that it's a pro computer,

01:05:10   'cause Apple's pro computers have 10 gig ethernet.

01:05:13   To USB-A, yay!

01:05:15   I know people, who cares?

01:05:16   It's USB-A or whatever,

01:05:17   but that shows that they could have left those out.

01:05:19   It's weird, they're not super pro.

01:05:21   Johnny Ive would have left them out,

01:05:23   but you've got room on the back of the computer.

01:05:24   USB-A doesn't take that much bandwidth.

01:05:26   You got these monster chips in there,

01:05:28   just put some USB-A ports and you know what?

01:05:30   It's got them, love it.

01:05:31   Two of them, not just one.

01:05:32   - Yeah, we still use them.

01:05:34   Every desktop that's out there,

01:05:37   you probably have at least one thing

01:05:38   you're gonna plug into USB-A.

01:05:39   For me, I plugged my keyboard dongle into that.

01:05:41   Everyone has stuff like that.

01:05:43   - Yeah, and again, you've got room on the back,

01:05:45   it's not a big computer, it's not huge,

01:05:47   it's mini-ish, but you got it there, so put it in.

01:05:50   It's got HDMI for the same reason.

01:05:52   Who wants HDMI?

01:05:53   Is it never gonna have a fancy monitor?

01:05:54   No, maybe you have an HDMI monitor, it's fine.

01:05:56   Put the port there.

01:05:57   - Or what if you wanna run it headless for some reason

01:05:59   and you need one of those silly little dongles

01:06:01   like I have on my Mac Mini.

01:06:02   - The pro audio jack for high impedance headphones, right?

01:06:07   'Cause make the good version of everything.

01:06:09   And then it's got ports on the front,

01:06:11   which no Mac Mini has ever had before

01:06:12   because apparently people didn't sit

01:06:15   in front of their Mac Minis.

01:06:16   Let's not start this again.

01:06:18   (laughing)

01:06:19   It says ports in the front.

01:06:21   It's got two USB-C, but if you get the Ultra,

01:06:24   those front ports become Thunderbolt 4

01:06:25   because there's just so many fricking Thunderbolt

01:06:28   controllers inside the system on chips.

01:06:31   The front ones can be Thunderbolt as well.

01:06:33   So that's six Thunderbolt four ports on the Ultra, I guess.

01:06:36   That's what you get when you throw two Maxes in there,

01:06:39   I guess.

01:06:40   And then SD card.

01:06:41   The only real disappointment in terms of the slots

01:06:43   is the SD card, I think, is still not one of the faster

01:06:46   SD card standard things.

01:06:48   Again, it's an obvious update,

01:06:49   just like we talked about in the MacBook Pros.

01:06:51   Maybe on a $4,000 computer, put in a better card reader,

01:06:54   but you know, whatever, you can always attach one to it,

01:06:56   attach one to one of the USB-8 ports maybe,

01:06:58   if it's fast enough.

01:06:59   But yeah, that's all great,

01:07:02   and they brag about what you can connect it to.

01:07:04   You can connect four Pro Display XDRs to it, plus a 4K TV.

01:07:08   It's kind of interesting that you can't connect

01:07:09   six Pro Display XDRs,

01:07:11   'cause it's got six Thunderbolt 4 ports,

01:07:13   but I guess they run out of bandwidth eventually,

01:07:14   but no one's gonna have that set up,

01:07:16   'cause it's ridiculous.

01:07:17   - Well, and also, they did mention,

01:07:19   you breezed by it a second ago,

01:07:20   that the front ports are not Thunderbolt.

01:07:24   They're only USB, only USB 3 if you have the M1 Max

01:07:28   instead of the M1 Ultra, because I guess you need

01:07:30   the additional Thunderbolt controllers on the M1 Ultra

01:07:32   to make them Thunderbolt.

01:07:33   So maybe they're just like, you know, not worth, you know,

01:07:36   I wonder if maybe the M1 Ultra versions

01:07:40   do actually support six displays,

01:07:42   and they just didn't wanna say that to avoid confusion?

01:07:45   I don't know, maybe not.

01:07:45   - It'd be weird having monitors connected

01:07:47   to the front of your computer, though.

01:07:49   - Yeah, that would be weird.

01:07:50   I mean, you just rotate it sideways

01:07:51   then everything's coming out of the side.

01:07:52   It's very symmetrical.

01:07:53   And so they did a bunch of bragging about performance.

01:07:56   I mean, the M1 Max is the M1 Max,

01:07:58   like it is what it is.

01:07:59   We already, they didn't say it was clocked higher

01:08:02   than it was in the MacBook Pro,

01:08:03   but conceivably it could be.

01:08:04   And you know, so this is a smallish computer,

01:08:07   but it is a five-headed and it is taller than Mac Mini.

01:08:10   I think a single M1 Max in there, even overclocked,

01:08:15   there's gonna be cooling despair.

01:08:16   Like they emphasize how quiet it is and so on and so forth,

01:08:19   but just remember an M1 Max fits in a laptop.

01:08:22   And now it's in a case that's not only bigger

01:08:24   than a laptop, but it's way bigger than a laptop.

01:08:27   There's so much room in there for the fans

01:08:29   and the blowers and the heat sinks.

01:08:30   I think if you get an M1 Max version of a Max Studio,

01:08:33   it will essentially be silent.

01:08:34   Like I don't see why it wouldn't be

01:08:36   because it is just over provisioned for cooling.

01:08:38   'Cause it's gotta have in that same size,

01:08:40   in that same size case,

01:08:41   they have to be able to cool twice as much CPU heat

01:08:45   or system on a chip heat because the ultra is 2X that.

01:08:49   - Yeah, I mean, I would even say like the Ultra,

01:08:51   with its better heat sink,

01:08:53   might even be quieter under moderate loads.

01:08:56   Obviously, the Ultra will be able to go higher

01:08:58   and generate more heat,

01:09:00   so that the ceiling of how loud the Ultra can get

01:09:02   is probably higher than the ceiling of the Max,

01:09:04   but it might even be quieter.

01:09:06   I mean, but I just, I loved when they briefly showed

01:09:09   like the cutaway diagram of this case,

01:09:12   and they were showing the big blower fans,

01:09:14   and you could see like about half of the height of the case

01:09:18   is just those big fans. - Yep, more than half.

01:09:20   - Yeah, it's a huge proportion of the height

01:09:22   is just cooling, that's amazing.

01:09:24   - They do not wanna be painted into a thermal corner

01:09:27   ever, ever, ever again. (laughs)

01:09:29   - Speaking of thermal corners, though,

01:09:30   I feel like this case design, it's a little bit odd

01:09:33   in terms of, a lot of people are comparing it like,

01:09:36   oh, it's like the G4 Cube, oh no,

01:09:37   actually it's like the trash can,

01:09:39   but both of those two computers had a more straightforward

01:09:43   and sensible cooling strategy,

01:09:44   which was cold air in the bottom, hot air out the top.

01:09:48   This one does not do that.

01:09:49   There are no holes in the top of this computer.

01:09:50   It's like a Mac Mini up top there, right?

01:09:52   It's a single piece of aluminum, right?

01:09:53   So this does cool air from the bottom,

01:09:55   hot air out the back, which is not bad.

01:09:57   - I mean, at least you can't put a piece of paper on top

01:09:59   to make it shut down.

01:10:00   - Yeah, I mean, it's fine.

01:10:02   Like, I'm sure it's fine.

01:10:02   I'm not saying this is bad cooling,

01:10:03   but like part of the trashcan design,

01:10:06   it was just like totally embraced the idea.

01:10:07   Hot air rises, cool air comes in the bottom of this thing

01:10:09   and it vents out.

01:10:10   That's why it looks like a trashcan, right?

01:10:12   And so it was, and the Cube embraced it in a different way

01:10:16   by not having any fans using convection,

01:10:18   which maybe wasn't the best idea,

01:10:19   but still, it made sense.

01:10:21   And this one makes, like, the weird fan designs

01:10:24   that are in there are because they do want to do

01:10:26   sort of the right angle thing, you know, cool,

01:10:29   and they could have done what the Mac Pro does.

01:10:30   Cool air in the front, hot air out the back,

01:10:32   also very common, used in server racks all the time.

01:10:34   You get the hot aisle and the cool aisle,

01:10:36   just like the Mac DLT, right?

01:10:38   But they didn't do that either.

01:10:39   So it's cool. - Well done.

01:10:41   It's cool. I love the mech DLT. I know it's lots of styrofoam. It was a very wasteful product. I really liked it when I was a kid.

01:10:46   Oh my god.

01:10:48   Cool air in the bottom, hot air out the back, and that seems like it's kind of to serve...

01:10:53   Well, it's practicality because then you can put things on top of this, although don't put any chocolate on top. I think it might melt.

01:10:59   You know, just harder to block the vents because the back's gonna have the cable so you can't push anything up against it.

01:11:06   You can't really block the bottom unless it's on a shag carpet or something.

01:11:08   But if they had done cool air in the front hot air out the back

01:11:11   It could have been more efficient cooling if they had done cool air in the bottom hot air up top

01:11:15   It would be more efficient in cooling

01:11:17   But the for whatever reason this is what they went with and again if it was aesthetically beautiful to my eyes

01:11:21   I'd be more willing to forgive it

01:11:22   But now I think it's homely and also it has a slightly awkward cooling thing that you know

01:11:26   It's probably not probably I can make difference again, especially with just an M1 max in there

01:11:29   It's gonna be so silent and to Marcos point if you provision it for it with twice the cooling for the M1 ultra

01:11:34   But then you don't stress the ultra that might even be quieter

01:11:37   So I don't I don't fear that these are going to be noisy machines

01:11:40   But it is interesting to note what they've done and also the stylistic choice to make very very tiny holes

01:11:45   Right it's kind of going is the opposite of the Mac Pro is a huge giant 3d holes

01:11:50   It's very very tiny holes lots and lots of it

01:11:52   They think it's like 2,000 of them or something which is interesting

01:11:55   But I you know cat hair dander dust like the smaller the holes the more it could potentially clog so

01:12:02   Fingers crossed that this cooling setup,

01:12:04   this slightly unorthodox cooling setup

01:12:07   doesn't cause any problems.

01:12:08   - Yeah, I was actually a little bit concerned

01:12:10   that because the intake is right up against

01:12:13   the desk surface and it has all these little tiny holes,

01:12:15   I do think dust down there is gonna be

01:12:17   a little bit of a thing,

01:12:19   but probably not enough to matter.

01:12:20   - Don't put it on a carpet, please.

01:12:21   - Well, yeah, obviously, or a cat.

01:12:23   - Yeah, and then they did the M1 Ultra benchmarks,

01:12:26   and of course, in the M1 Ultra benchmarks in the GPU,

01:12:29   it scales essentially linearly

01:12:30   because it's an embarrassingly parallel problem.

01:12:32   So you just take M1 max numbers and you multiply them by two

01:12:35   and that is real, that's not like a fake thing.

01:12:37   And CPUs, it'll scale with your load.

01:12:39   You've got twice as many of each kind of core.

01:12:41   And if you have a workload

01:12:43   that can actually parallelize across them,

01:12:45   it will take advantage of them.

01:12:45   If you don't, it absolutely will not.

01:12:47   So be aware of what your workloads are

01:12:50   and whether you can actually take advantage

01:12:51   of that number of cores.

01:12:53   And of course, because they've got the two of them there,

01:12:55   the bandwidth doubles as like what,

01:12:58   800 gigs a second or something.

01:13:00   on the M1 Ultra instead of 400 on the Max

01:13:02   because it's two of them, hey, makes sense.

01:13:04   They brag about their 8K ProRes

01:13:06   because they have dedicated hardware

01:13:08   for ProRes video on the M1 Max

01:13:11   and now they've got twice as much.

01:13:12   So this thing can do 18 streams of 8K ProRes 422 video,

01:13:17   which no other machine can do.

01:13:18   That's, you know, but what the M,

01:13:20   we talked about this with the MacBook Pros,

01:13:21   like that Apple designs its chips to do the jobs

01:13:23   that it thinks people wanna do with its computers,

01:13:25   which unfortunately for some of us is not play games

01:13:28   or many of the other applications

01:13:30   we might wanna use GPU for,

01:13:32   but for Apple's customers, it's doing video work,

01:13:34   it's doing machine learning with a neural engine

01:13:36   and all that stuff, and that's where these things excel,

01:13:38   and the M1 Ultra is 2x that.

01:13:40   In some respects, it's like boring to talk about

01:13:43   because what's new?

01:13:45   You just double the thing that we already knew about,

01:13:48   but if you can use double the thing we already knew about,

01:13:50   this is like having two computers in one.

01:13:52   You can get your job done twice as fast

01:13:54   because now you've got 2x as much stuff, that's great.

01:13:57   Marco touched on this before,

01:13:59   but let's just put a pin in this.

01:14:01   The X-Mac angle, what the heck is the X-Mac?

01:14:03   Way back in the day, back in 2005-ish, I wrote an article.

01:14:06   And when I wrote this article in 2005 at Ars Technica,

01:14:08   it was already an old thing.

01:14:09   So the X-Mac, as far as I was able to determine in 2005,

01:14:13   and I'm certainly not gonna do any better today,

01:14:15   was a term that we came up with, and I say we

01:14:18   because I was there too, in the Ars Technica forums,

01:14:21   they used to have like web forums on their website,

01:14:23   I think they still do, in the Mac section.

01:14:26   And we would just argue with each other

01:14:27   about Mac stuff and yell at PC people and stuff.

01:14:30   And we talk about the idea of an XMac.

01:14:33   For this article, I tried to find out

01:14:35   where this term came from.

01:14:36   I found the oldest post in the forum that referenced XMac,

01:14:38   but it was already using the term

01:14:40   like we all knew what it was.

01:14:41   So it didn't help, but I think I am as well positioned

01:14:45   as anybody on the entire planet to tell you

01:14:48   what the definition of XMac is at this point,

01:14:50   because we're all old and none of us really remember

01:14:53   and I couldn't figure out back then.

01:14:54   And by the way, no one corrected me and gave feedback

01:14:56   and said, "Oh, I know where it came from.

01:14:57   none of us remember it's lost to the mist of time or as they would say in the Lord of

01:15:01   the Rings movie only I believe none now live who remember it.

01:15:07   The X Mac is a Mac that people who hang out at Ars Technica would like to buy because

01:15:13   it lets them configure and upgrade the parts that they care about right and it's you know

01:15:18   so it's like it's not a Mac Pro because that would let everyone do that but you know who

01:15:22   has Mac Pro money right.

01:15:24   It's not a Mac Pro, but it's also not something that's completely un-upgradable or a consumer

01:15:30   thing or whatever.

01:15:31   It's something in the middle.

01:15:32   And what do people back then care about?

01:15:33   I want to get a Mac where I can change the RAM, upgrade the storage, maybe even change

01:15:41   the CPU, and Apple would say, "We've got one of those.

01:15:44   Look, here it is.

01:15:45   It's a Power Mac.

01:15:46   It's a Mac Pro."

01:15:47   It's whatever we have.

01:15:48   It's like, "No, but I don't want to pay a bazillion dollars, and I don't need it to

01:15:50   be gigantic.

01:15:51   I just want a desktop Mac, no screen built in,

01:15:54   and I want to be able to do those things with it.

01:15:55   Like just basically a tech enthusiast's computer, right?

01:16:00   Not a professional giant workstation thing,

01:16:02   not an iMac where everything's all built in,

01:16:04   not an Xserve and a server rack, just make me an XMac.

01:16:07   That's what the XMac was, that's what everybody wanted.

01:16:10   It was a product like that.

01:16:11   When the Mac Mini came out, there was much debate.

01:16:13   Is the Mac Mini the XMac?

01:16:16   And based on that definition I gave you,

01:16:17   I think you can say that not really.

01:16:19   Like it was a Mac without a screen that was lower priced

01:16:23   and you could upgrade back in the day,

01:16:25   the RAM on it and the storage, but that's about it.

01:16:29   There was no GPU to speak of at all,

01:16:31   especially back in the early days of the Mac mini

01:16:32   with the Intel integrated graphics and crap like that.

01:16:35   You couldn't add a better GPU before the days of eGPU.

01:16:38   And it was just a little bit too small, right?

01:16:42   It was like, oh, it's not really the X Max,

01:16:44   but it's better than nothing.

01:16:45   And it certainly is inexpensive.

01:16:46   The first one was like 500 bucks or something.

01:16:47   Those days are long gone, right?

01:16:49   So, the need for the XMac was still there.

01:16:54   Is the Mac Studio the XMac?

01:16:56   Well, here's the funny thing.

01:16:58   If you have this thing like the XMac that has been circulating in a community for 10-15

01:17:03   years as an object of obsession, Apple never seems to make the computer that me, the weird

01:17:08   tech nerd, wants.

01:17:09   They just won't make a product for me.

01:17:11   And you'd say, "I know I'm not a big market, but tech nerds want what they want."

01:17:15   They were just so excited for Apple to make that.

01:17:17   If you have that in your mind for so long, eventually the world moves on.

01:17:21   This is getting to what Mark was saying before.

01:17:24   At this point, it's not that Apple is never going to make this for us or they keep cruelly

01:17:30   keeping it from us.

01:17:31   At this point, the fact that we can't have upgradable RAM, for example, in any of the

01:17:37   Macs that we're talking about, the ARM backs, we get huge benefit for that.

01:17:45   not doing it just to be mean. Not being able to upgrade the RAM is bad. That's the con.

01:17:50   On the pro side, the memory is really really fast and makes everything faster. Huge memory bandwidth,

01:17:57   low memory latency, it makes the computers better. It's lower power in the laptops. It is less

01:18:04   configurable, it is less flexible. We'll talk more about that when we talk about configuring

01:18:07   the Mac Studio. It has cons but it also has pros. What about the GPU? Oh certainly in this Mac

01:18:14   studio sized box they could probably fit a half size GPU in there or have an upgradeable card.

01:18:18   No, the GPU is integrated into the system on a chip. Well that's terrible integrated graphics

01:18:23   suck right? I want an XMac I want to be able to buy an Nvidia GPU and stick it in there.

01:18:26   I'm not saying the world has totally moved on from that but in many ways Apple you know didn't

01:18:32   give that to us. Con you can't change your GPU upgrade your GPU. Pro the GPUs are really fast and

01:18:40   low power, amazing performance without huge amounts of fan noise, and that doesn't just

01:18:45   benefit laptops because it lets you put tons and tons of cores into small desktops like

01:18:50   this without having them sound like hair dryers.

01:18:54   It may be that the time of the XMac is moving, you know, we've moved past the time of the

01:18:58   XMac, that it should no longer be an object of desire as I've defined it because the ability

01:19:04   to upgrade your CPU, GPU, storage, and stuff like that, you're basically describing a tower

01:19:09   computer and Apple makes one of those and yes it's a hoejillion dollars right

01:19:12   and for back to the whole thing of like but that's what Apple makes like Apple

01:19:15   is never going to make you a cheap PC right there was a window of time where

01:19:21   Apple could have made a small computer with one PCI slot or one AGP slot or one

01:19:25   whatever slot with a video card and a CPU yeah there was a time when Apple

01:19:31   could have made that computer it would have had upgradeable storage it would

01:19:33   have upgradeable RAM or could even have upgradeable CPU and you could put it the

01:19:37   GPU that you wanted into it and it would be half the size of a Mac Pro and it

01:19:41   would have cost less than a Mac Pro but I feel like the window is rapidly

01:19:44   closing on that machine even making sense for Apple because the way Apple is

01:19:48   building Macs precludes a lot of the things that we said we wanted to be able

01:19:52   to upgrade and it gets rid of them not punitively it gets rid of them in

01:19:57   exchange for benefits that even tech nerds will appreciate. Marco is

01:20:01   appreciating the fact that his computer is fast and silent it's not just silent

01:20:05   but dog slow, right?

01:20:07   It's silent and also very fast.

01:20:09   It's faster than his old noisier computer.

01:20:11   No, he can't upgrade these things in it.

01:20:13   He can't do technology things or whatever,

01:20:14   but I think the window is rapidly closing on the X Mac.

01:20:17   I'm not gonna have a funeral for the X Mac.

01:20:19   Like in theory, Apple could have still made one,

01:20:21   but I feel like the way Apple has decided

01:20:24   to build future Macs really closes the door on the X Mac.

01:20:29   And I'm not really sad to see it go.

01:20:33   Again, caveats, we'll get to the configuration part

01:20:35   of it because I think the benefits we're getting from it are worth it and like

01:20:38   you don't want to get stuck in the idea of like well you know if a car doesn't

01:20:41   have a carburetor it's not a real car like you have to embrace the march of

01:20:44   technology and the march of technology is that the advantages offered by a

01:20:49   system on a chip are so huge for almost everything that anybody does with a Mac

01:20:54   computer that there's no reason to hold on to the past you didn't say a computer

01:20:58   has to have a separate CPU a separate Northbridge and a Southbridge and

01:21:03   and separate PCI slots and Thunderbolt controllers and like that was the way we used to build

01:21:08   computers but things get consolidated and I think the way Macs are built now and the

01:21:12   way modern PCs are built is better than the old ways in enough ways for it to be worthwhile

01:21:18   at least for me.

01:21:19   So is the Mac Studio an XMac?

01:21:21   No it is not.

01:21:24   But I think it's the way things are going and I think it is better for most people who

01:21:30   want an X Mac it is mostly better but now now we have to start talking about

01:21:35   the bad news and start talking about pricing. Honestly I don't think it's that

01:21:39   bad. Well let me so you you went through the pricing before and how it seems

01:21:44   reasonable right but Apple has is really embracing its role as the Porsche of

01:21:51   because the base models are all pretty reasonable right but when you start

01:21:57   doing options and we moan about this all the time but it's really hammering it home with

01:22:01   the Mac Studio, especially as it relates to the 27-inch iMac, which we'll talk more about

01:22:06   in a bit.

01:22:07   The options really, really do hurt on this thing.

01:22:10   So let's look at the CPU options.

01:22:12   The base one is 24-core, so you get an M1 Mac with a bunch of stuff broken in it.

01:22:17   What's the M1 Pro?

01:22:19   The Pro, I think it's the same...

01:22:22   16.

01:22:23   Is it the same CPU cores?

01:22:25   or is it you actually lose that as well?

01:22:28   - I can't keep it straight.

01:22:28   - We can't keep it, there's too many numbers

01:22:30   because they list like the neural engine cores

01:22:31   and like you'd have to look, it's just always 16 per, right?

01:22:34   So 16, anyway.

01:22:35   The base one is 10 core CPU, 24 core GPU.

01:22:39   So stuff is broken in the GPU,

01:22:41   but I think that's all the CPU core is working.

01:22:42   - Yes. - Right?

01:22:43   Eight and two, yeah.

01:22:44   - Yeah, it's always the same CPU cores,

01:22:46   but the GPU cores are variable.

01:22:49   - Yeah, and so if you want to bump that up

01:22:52   to an M1 max with nothing broken in it,

01:22:54   you know, 10 core CPU, 32 core GPU is 200 bucks.

01:22:56   You're like, all right, that's not bad or whatever.

01:22:58   You wanna go to the Ultra, it's plus 1400 bucks.

01:23:00   Now you're granted, you're getting two of them, right?

01:23:02   So it makes some sense, right?

01:23:04   But still that one really hurts, right?

01:23:06   Because we know, like we talked about,

01:23:08   like the system on a chip, they're expensive,

01:23:11   but they're not 1400, you know, $1400 each.

01:23:14   They're just not, like they don't cost Apple $800

01:23:17   to build either, they absolutely don't, right?

01:23:18   It's just, that's a lot of money.

01:23:21   And then, and that's the one, just to be fair,

01:23:23   there is gonna be additional cost

01:23:27   in all the other stuff around it.

01:23:28   You know, you have all the different other parts

01:23:30   that are required to have two dies.

01:23:33   You have the interconnect, you have to have two dies

01:23:36   that both have the interconnect part

01:23:38   of their silicon working.

01:23:40   You know, there is a lot of other stuff

01:23:43   that makes it, you know, probably not $1400 expensive.

01:23:48   - I think it's big margins, isn't it?

01:23:49   - Maybe 50%, you know, but at this point,

01:23:52   I think that's, given what it is and how specialized it is,

01:23:55   I think that's fair.

01:23:57   - And that's the one with the 48-core GPUs.

01:23:58   I saw you got a bunch of GPU cores broken.

01:24:00   And then when you upgrade to the one without the GPU cores,

01:24:03   this really hurts.

01:24:04   An extra thousand to go from 48 to 64 GPU cores,

01:24:07   that's just really gouging the people

01:24:08   who want the best of the best, right?

01:24:09   Because that's the same shit,

01:24:11   but now all the parts work. - Yeah, that's fair.

01:24:12   - Extra thousands, so that hurt.

01:24:14   But whatever, that's the top end.

01:24:15   All right, RAM.

01:24:16   This is where, this is one of the big cons

01:24:18   of the system on a chip thing.

01:24:19   You get massive, super fast RAM

01:24:22   that share between CPU and GPU,

01:24:23   which again has pros and cons.

01:24:25   Con, you don't get your separate pools,

01:24:26   you have to have less of it.

01:24:27   Pro, it's way faster for the CPU and GPU to interact

01:24:30   or operate, which is important

01:24:31   for a lot of Apple's applications, right?

01:24:33   But the other bad thing about this is that,

01:24:35   obviously the RAM is unchangeable,

01:24:37   it's also tied to your CPU choice.

01:24:40   So you can't get a MacStudio with the cheap CPU and max RAM.

01:24:44   You just can't, because the base is 32.

01:24:47   If you wanna go to 64, it's plus 400 bucks,

01:24:49   which seems a little bit obscene, but whatever.

01:24:51   If you want to go to 128, it's plus 1200 bucks,

01:24:54   which really hurts, but by the way,

01:24:56   you have to get one of the ultras,

01:24:57   because if you look at where the RAM is,

01:25:00   it's around the little, it's around basically the Jade-C dies

01:25:03   and the only way to get 128 is to get two Jade-C dies,

01:25:06   each of which has 64 around it for a total of 128.

01:25:09   So you lose flexibility due to their system design.

01:25:12   You can't get, I just want lots of RAM for my applications,

01:25:15   but I don't need tons of cores.

01:25:16   It's just not possible anymore.

01:25:18   And that RAM costs a lot,

01:25:19   Because in what universe is going from 32 gigs of RAM

01:25:23   to 128 adding 1,200 bucks?

01:25:26   Granted, this is fancy RAM.

01:25:27   Like it's not regular RAM, it's fancy RAM,

01:25:28   it's used as a thing.

01:25:30   But oh, that just really starts to hurt you on the price.

01:25:33   And then storage, this I think is the most objectionable

01:25:36   because it has nothing to do with any particular advantage

01:25:38   that Apple has.

01:25:39   This is not, oh, it's just my chip stuff.

01:25:41   That's all Apple magic.

01:25:42   We love it, it's awesome, it's great, it makes fast stuff,

01:25:44   it's low power, right?

01:25:45   Their storage is just storage.

01:25:46   They're just buying it from a third party.

01:25:47   Their storage controllers are probably great,

01:25:49   But this is just flash storage.

01:25:51   The base is 512, which is, yeah, all right, fine.

01:25:55   Terabyte is plus 200,

01:25:56   but you could probably get a terabyte flash drive

01:25:58   straight out for 200 bucks,

01:26:00   not going from 512 to a terabyte.

01:26:03   - I mean, in all fairness, that's worse flash

01:26:06   when you do that.

01:26:07   - It depends, like, we'll have to see what this means.

01:26:09   Anyway, going up to two terabytes plus 600 bucks,

01:26:11   like, it goes the opposite the way you would think,

01:26:13   like you get economies of scale.

01:26:15   No, it's, you know, four terabyte plus 1200 still,

01:26:18   still plus 1200 for the four terabyte.

01:26:21   You're just talking about how much it used to be.

01:26:22   It used to be more than that, but that really hurts.

01:26:25   And then eight terabyte, obviously plus 2400.

01:26:27   Like those prices are not connected with reality.

01:26:29   Like you could look at the vendor that Apple is using

01:26:31   for their flash and see what the real prices are.

01:26:34   And just the margins as you go up

01:26:35   in the options things really kick.

01:26:37   At least the storage is not tied to the CPU

01:26:40   because it doesn't have to be.

01:26:41   So again, Apple is not doing this to be punitive.

01:26:42   It's part of the system design,

01:26:44   but it is a downside of this.

01:26:45   So I would say most of this doesn't matter that much because like well that's how they're

01:26:50   all priced.

01:26:51   Look at the Mac Pro prices.

01:26:52   It's the same way right?

01:26:53   These are the high end computers.

01:26:55   But where I think it hurts is because of the 27 inch iMac going away.

01:27:01   I spent the whole last show saying oh when the new big iMac comes out I'm going to get

01:27:03   that from my wife right?

01:27:05   Hey no new big iMac.

01:27:06   Right?

01:27:07   Surprise.

01:27:08   At least not yet.

01:27:09   But now given these prices, what Casey was just talking about of like if I buy a Mac

01:27:13   studio plus the display here's what the price is and that's less than what my iMac Pro was

01:27:18   but it is not less than what a 27-inch iMac.

01:27:20   No, certainly not.

01:27:21   Dan Morin beat me to the punch with this and he's a fast writer.

01:27:24   He got an article on six colors about the missing Red Ranger Mac desktop.

01:27:27   If you do the price range of Apple's desktop line there is a hole in the middle between

01:27:33   essentially the Mac Mini and the Mac Studio because the cheapest Mac Studio is like there's

01:27:39   a gap where basically the 27-inch iMac should be.

01:27:43   Just in terms of pricing, forget about built-in screen, not built-in screen or whatever.

01:27:47   It's not a big gap and you could argue Apple doesn't need to fill that gap, but I feel

01:27:52   like there's an obvious 27-inch iMac that can go there.

01:27:56   The good thing that the Mac Studio does is it makes it so the 27-inch iMac can go there.

01:28:00   It can be straight up a 24-inch iMac with a 27-inch screen.

01:28:04   Don't even change the internals.

01:28:06   Because if you want it all on one computer and you want it at a price that's going to

01:28:11   fit between those two items?

01:28:13   Like the Mac Studio lets you say, "Oh, but I want something faster."

01:28:16   Well great, Apple makes that for you, but I don't want a big Mac Pro.

01:28:18   Well great, Apple makes that for you.

01:28:20   It's the Mac Studio, it's right there.

01:28:22   I don't even think they need to make an iMac Pro or a thicker, faster 27-inch iMac with

01:28:28   an M1 Ultra in it.

01:28:31   You could just straight up take the 24-inch iMac, colors and all, everything about it,

01:28:35   scale that sucker up to 27-inch, slide it right into there.

01:28:38   You could also do many variations of having an M1 Mac inside it or not having it be in

01:28:44   colors and calling it the iMac Pro and Apple may still do that.

01:28:47   A lot of people were getting hung up on the idea of like at the end of the thing where

01:28:51   they said, what did they say, I've got the quote in here, "making our transition nearly

01:28:56   complete with just one more product to go, Mac Pro, but that's for another day."

01:29:01   But that doesn't preclude 27-inch iMac at all because they've already transitioned the

01:29:04   iMac to ARM.

01:29:05   I think it does.

01:29:06   They just didn't make a 27-inch version.

01:29:08   So the door is absolutely open for a 27 inch computer.

01:29:11   And the reason I think they need something to go in there

01:29:13   is because as you start specing out the Mac Studio

01:29:16   to be kind of the way you want it,

01:29:17   it's clear that this is a product for people

01:29:19   who really do need the extra power offered by it.

01:29:22   Whereas if all you want is a 27 inch, you know,

01:29:26   a 5K display, but you need a little bit more

01:29:28   than the Mac Mini, you're kind of stuck.

01:29:31   - So just make a beefier Mac Mini, problem solved.

01:29:34   - I mean, they could, but they didn't do that either.

01:29:35   I mean, this is not a beefier Mac Mini.

01:29:37   - Yeah, I mean, so I think we,

01:29:39   you know, there is, there was already a rumor today

01:29:41   from Kermit about how like, they are apparently

01:29:45   working on a Mac Mini update using,

01:29:49   I think the M2 was the current rumor now.

01:29:52   It seems like the rumors are now kind of converging

01:29:54   on there being a collection of M2 Macs coming out,

01:29:58   like between June and fall, something in that range.

01:30:01   - Yeah, I mean, the M2 MacBook Air is in there,

01:30:03   and once you've got that M2 chip,

01:30:05   that should spread to all the places the M1 was, right?

01:30:07   - Right, and if you look performance-wise,

01:30:10   the M1 is totally fine for both low-end

01:30:13   and for mid-range needs.

01:30:15   I mean, again, I used M1s full-time

01:30:17   for a lot of this past time.

01:30:20   - The RAM limits on the M1, though.

01:30:21   - Exactly.

01:30:22   - That's where it really hurts you.

01:30:23   - Yes.

01:30:24   - And to some degree, it's tied to the system on its chip,

01:30:26   but in other ways, it's not,

01:30:27   like there's no reason you couldn't make an M1 with more RAM.

01:30:30   They just haven't.

01:30:31   - Right, well, and I mean, maybe it's just,

01:30:34   however they spec the M1, however they pair it.

01:30:35   - Yeah, I really like, M2 wise,

01:30:37   it's not like there's not enough circuitry on the chip

01:30:40   to address more memory or something like that.

01:30:42   When they make the M2, they can make a different choice.

01:30:44   - Right, M1's limited to 16 gigs,

01:30:46   and I don't think you need to go to like 64, 128,

01:30:48   I think 32 would be fine.

01:30:49   For all these mid-range needs,

01:30:50   32 would be a totally fine RAM ceiling.

01:30:53   But I honestly, I think the 27-inch iMac is dead,

01:30:57   and I don't think it's coming back.

01:30:59   So here's why.

01:31:00   - I would almost put money on this thing coming back.

01:31:03   - Great, how much?

01:31:04   - Maybe like probably a dollar.

01:31:06   - Okay, you got it.

01:31:07   - Maybe not this year, but I feel like it's untenable for,

01:31:11   put it this way, it's untenable for Apple

01:31:13   to keep the iMac at 24 inch for much longer.

01:31:15   I understand why they made it this way,

01:31:17   'cause 24 inches actually, I've said this before

01:31:20   about my sister, how we were trying to get a new computer,

01:31:22   and she was viscerally repelled by the idea of a screen

01:31:26   as big as 27 inches, because it just,

01:31:28   people don't want something dominating their household

01:31:30   in that way, which is why I think the 24 inch iMac

01:31:32   so great because it is a nice big screen but also it does not dominate your desk, like

01:31:36   it tries to be unobtrusive.

01:31:39   But technology marches on, I mean the original iMac had a 15 inch screen and it didn't stay

01:31:43   that way forever.

01:31:45   Eventually the iMac screen is going to be larger than 24 inches and when it does the

01:31:49   27 inch iMac will come back.

01:31:50   That's all I'm saying.

01:31:51   I'm not saying that tomorrow there's going to be a 27 inch iMac despite this hole in

01:31:54   the lineup or whatever, it's just that 24, it went up from 21, the low end iMac used

01:31:59   to be 21, so they made 24, which is a nice in-between size and keep it, but eventually

01:32:02   two or three years from now, they're gonna be like, 24, really? Everyone else is so much

01:32:07   bigger and they'll work their way back up to 27 and 5k.

01:32:11   You really just infinite time scaled us on this?

01:32:13   It's not infinite, I'm gonna say within like, within three years there'll be a 27 inch

01:32:18   time.

01:32:19   You really just finite time scaled us on this?

01:32:20   Alright, that's the bet. Three years from now, we'll bet it up to you a dollar.

01:32:24   My one dollar bet.

01:32:25   - See, I don't think it's coming back because,

01:32:29   so first of all, the hole in the lineup, it is there,

01:32:34   but it's largely only there because the 24 inch iMac

01:32:37   starts out so low spec'd.

01:32:39   Again, if you spec things, if you actually can't spec up

01:32:41   the 24 inch iMac to be anywhere near the base model

01:32:44   Mac Studio, you know, with the display,

01:32:47   like it's pretty far from the RAM.

01:32:50   - Yeah, I mean, CPU, RAM, GPU, everything about it

01:32:53   can't get close to the base Mac Studio.

01:32:55   - Right, if you get as close as you can,

01:32:58   which you still only have half the RAM

01:33:00   and of course the very different processor,

01:33:02   it's $2,000 almost, like for the 24-inch iMac.

01:33:06   - That's what I say with the space in the line.

01:33:08   Whenever you do space in the line,

01:33:10   you can't look at the options

01:33:11   'cause options destroy, like in like Porsche,

01:33:13   options destroy any semblance of market segmentation

01:33:15   because you can take the lowliest thing

01:33:17   and then add all the options,

01:33:18   you're like, what the hell happened?

01:33:19   I'm gonna buy a 24-inch iMac for how much money?

01:33:22   I mean, in some ways it's a blessing

01:33:24   you can't add RAM to them

01:33:24   because it keeps the price down.

01:33:26   - We don't know how big the market

01:33:28   for the 27-inch iMac in 2022 really is.

01:33:32   I'm sure Apple has lots of sales data

01:33:34   to suggest what they should do with this,

01:33:36   but I think what Apple has done here,

01:33:40   which probably reflects the market,

01:33:42   the market for large desktops

01:33:45   with high-performance stuff in them is probably very small,

01:33:50   and that market probably tends towards people

01:33:53   who can afford and who want higher end gear.

01:33:56   Now that isn't everyone, there's the whole X-MAT crowd,

01:33:59   which as you mentioned, the X-MAT crowd is largely

01:34:03   computer nerds like us who know how to build

01:34:06   our own computers and maybe have done that in the past

01:34:08   or currently or maybe it's gamers who wanna put in

01:34:12   gaming hardware and stuff like that.

01:34:13   These markets exist, but I think the market for people

01:34:16   who are buying Macs to do that, first of all,

01:34:20   And then secondly, people who want to buy

01:34:23   a large desktop display and a large desktop computer

01:34:28   in 2022, I think that's mostly a,

01:34:32   first of all, I think it's a very small market.

01:34:35   And I think it's mostly a pro market.

01:34:37   Or it's the PC people who Apple's never gonna win over

01:34:39   anyway and who wouldn't want modern Macs to begin with

01:34:41   'cause they can't play any of these games anymore.

01:34:43   - But the problem Apple has is that they sold

01:34:45   a lot of 27-inch iMacs.

01:34:46   Now I don't know how many they sold, only Apple knows,

01:34:48   but that's their biggest problem is that

01:34:50   this was a product in their lineup.

01:34:51   They sold it to a lot of people and those people,

01:34:54   forget about anyone else

01:34:55   that you're ever attracting to the market,

01:34:56   those people have a difficult choice ahead of them

01:34:59   because their choices go up market

01:35:02   and spend a lot more money

01:35:03   or go down in screen size to 24.

01:35:05   Now maybe Apple is correctly calculating, like I said,

01:35:08   that more people are like my sister

01:35:09   and really don't want that 27 inch thing

01:35:11   dominating their space and a 24 that's like very thin

01:35:14   and it comes in pretty colors, they'll take that

01:35:16   and they won't even notice the screen is smaller.

01:35:18   But I have a hard time believing that.

01:35:20   I know a lot of people who really love their 27-inch iMacs.

01:35:23   Those are existing customers.

01:35:24   Someday their computers will get old,

01:35:26   they'll wanna replace them.

01:35:27   And I feel like that's the part

01:35:29   where the whole new lineup will hurt Apple the most.

01:35:32   Existing 27-inch iMac customers.

01:35:34   I mean, we're replacing potentially, no spoilers,

01:35:37   2015 27-inch iMac, right?

01:35:41   It's not just like how many they sold last year.

01:35:44   These things last for a really long time

01:35:45   because your needs aren't demanding.

01:35:47   and it's just the screen size, right?

01:35:49   That's all it comes down to.

01:35:50   It's not as if people are saying,

01:35:51   oh, I need something faster or whatever.

01:35:52   They just say, really?

01:35:53   The only way I can get a screen that's even just,

01:35:56   people expect technology to march on,

01:35:57   that the screens get bigger or have better color

01:36:01   or have HDR or have high refresh rate.

01:36:03   Really?

01:36:03   Just to match the screen that I've had since 2015,

01:36:06   I have to spend how much more money

01:36:08   for this Max Studio thing that I don't even want

01:36:09   and that I think is ugly, right?

01:36:12   That's their problem, is they just,

01:36:13   they have sold a lot of 20-inch iMacs.

01:36:15   So I think they will address that problem eventually,

01:36:18   hopefully within the next three years.

01:36:20   - The new 27-inch iMac is a studio display

01:36:25   and either a Mac Mini or a Mac Studio.

01:36:28   - Hard to agree, hard to agree.

01:36:28   - That's what they want people to do.

01:36:30   And I can tell you, as somebody who has owned

01:36:32   many 27-inch iMacs, I think this is the way to go.

01:36:37   - But it's better for us, but it's not better for people

01:36:39   who don't care about computers.

01:36:40   They just want a big screen

01:36:41   and they want it to be an all-in-one.

01:36:42   They do not want more boxes and wires.

01:36:44   - I'm not so convinced you're right.

01:36:46   - I think a lot of those people would go with either,

01:36:48   first of all, a laptop, which is the real answer

01:36:51   for most people, but they're gonna go

01:36:52   for the 24-inch iMac.

01:36:54   - But they have an existing 27-inch thing.

01:36:57   It's an all-in-one computer with very few cables

01:36:59   with a 27-inch screen, and they don't wanna get

01:37:01   a smaller screen, but they don't want a separate box

01:37:03   with a bunch of wires 'cause they don't care

01:37:04   about that stuff.

01:37:05   Like, it is a problem.

01:37:06   - So wait, these people don't care about computers,

01:37:10   except they really care about the size of their screen.

01:37:12   - You know what it's like when you get,

01:37:14   This is the reason why Marco and I are spoiled now with our 6K.

01:37:18   It's the reason why you don't want to go back to 4K screens, because once you get used to

01:37:22   a bigger screen, you get used to it.

01:37:23   It seemed like technology with everything, our televisions, the displays inside our cars,

01:37:28   and yes, our computer monitors, they just get bigger over time.

01:37:31   We consider that the mark of progress, because we use the space up to a limit, obviously.

01:37:36   I feel like 27 is not over that line.

01:37:38   So many people have been used to that space.

01:37:40   If you get a computer where the screen is smaller, it's going to feel like somewhat

01:37:44   of a downgrade.

01:37:45   Now, again, Apple may be right that it'll feel like a downgrade but people will get

01:37:49   over it because they come in colors.

01:37:50   That's powerful.

01:37:51   I'm not discounting that.

01:37:52   I'm not saying that as a joke.

01:37:53   That is a real thing.

01:37:54   Yes.

01:37:55   And those computers are even slimmer, which I think is something that people look for,

01:37:58   the same reason they don't want a Mac Mini with monitors, because they don't want more

01:38:02   crap on their desk.

01:38:03   They like the fact that the iMac is just one thing, and the new iMac is even less of a

01:38:08   thing.

01:38:09   thin and it comes in colors and it looks nice and like it's not a big miss calculation it's

01:38:14   not a big miss but I feel like it's something that Apple should address either by just taking

01:38:19   the iMac 24 inch and replacing it with a 27 inch of the exact same computer like not adding

01:38:24   it not having a 24 and a 27 because I agree having a 24 and 27 seems weird but I feel

01:38:29   like people who are used to 27 inches aren't going to want to downgrade and they shouldn't

01:38:33   have to and they shouldn't also have to suddenly become a computer nerd and have a bunch of

01:38:37   boxes with wires. As someone who has owned many 27 inch iMacs, the problem I always had,

01:38:46   and I even, I got the opportunity, I ran into Craig Federighi at an event at W2C a few years

01:38:51   back, and it was right around the time I was complaining a lot about the display and Mac

01:38:56   Pro situation, who knew?

01:38:57   - Did he tell you to drive it over to his house?

01:39:01   - And we got to talking, he knew that I was very vocal about my opinions on such things,

01:39:06   I forget the full context of it,

01:39:07   but the one thing I told him was like,

01:39:10   the one thing I don't like about this setup is

01:39:12   that the monitor and the computer are glued together.

01:39:16   And so when I have a problem with either the computer

01:39:20   or the monitor, I have to lose them both.

01:39:23   Whether that's sending them in for service

01:39:24   or eventually replacing them,

01:39:26   you have these things that are bonded together.

01:39:28   Now, the iMac display panel,

01:39:32   like that 27 inch panel that it seems to be very similar

01:39:36   or the same as the studio display panel

01:39:37   that they're releasing,

01:39:39   that monitor can last through many computer generations

01:39:42   worth of hardware for a person.

01:39:44   As long as the monitor doesn't break,

01:39:45   and they tend to last a pretty long time

01:39:47   with no moving parts and stuff,

01:39:49   it tends, they tend to be pretty long lasting.

01:39:52   And so to be able to just have a monitor that you buy once,

01:39:57   and then you have different computer guts

01:39:59   that you can have on a totally separate schedule,

01:40:01   and then you have redundancy or easier service mechanics,

01:40:05   That to me is great.

01:40:06   I have had to sell or decommission

01:40:10   so many perfectly good monitors

01:40:12   because the computer in them had broken,

01:40:14   or vice versa.

01:40:15   Many, many monitors,

01:40:18   or not many, some monitors had problems

01:40:20   that I had to get rid of the iMac

01:40:22   'cause the monitor had problems.

01:40:23   And whereas this, if you configure

01:40:27   the base model Mac Mini, the M1 base model Mac Mini,

01:40:30   that's eight gigs, 512 gigs, M1.

01:40:33   That's a great computer for so many needs.

01:40:36   That plus the new studio display is $2,500.

01:40:40   That's your new 27-inch iMac.

01:40:44   - That's still more than the 27-inch iMac

01:40:45   and it's a separate box.

01:40:46   Like what you're arguing for is obviously like,

01:40:49   we computer nerds, no, of course don't put the monitor

01:40:51   with the computer 'cause you need to be able

01:40:53   to service them and upgrade them separately

01:40:55   and that's totally a computer nerd thing.

01:40:56   The way regular people deal with the fact

01:40:57   that you've got this monitor and the computer

01:40:59   becomes obsolete is they don't care.

01:41:01   Like I have a seven year old iMac back there.

01:41:03   And it's like, oh, well then this monitor

01:41:06   should be able to use it across multiple generations.

01:41:08   They do use them across multiple generations.

01:41:09   They never upgrade.

01:41:10   They take a 2017, 2015 5K iMac and they just use it.

01:41:14   They're gonna use it for 12 years.

01:41:16   'Cause it's fine for them.

01:41:17   'Cause what they want, that's why Apple still sells the iMac.

01:41:20   Some people don't care about upgrading components separately,

01:41:23   don't care about servicing them,

01:41:25   they don't care about wedging them together for reliability,

01:41:26   they don't care about e-waste, they don't care.

01:41:29   Most people just want, like if they want a desktop computer at all,

01:41:32   which is rare to begin with, but if they want that,

01:41:34   they probably want a big screen and they just sit there and they use it until

01:41:38   something goes wrong with it that makes them have to get another one.

01:41:40   They're not listening to this podcast and they don't care about the separate

01:41:42   stuff. Like obviously you're, you're, you're,

01:41:45   you're showing off your history with Apple computers because I can't think of

01:41:50   anyone who has an all in one PC.

01:41:55   - No, but John, all people want,

01:41:58   all people want is a one piece solution

01:42:01   with one cable and nothing else.

01:42:03   Like if that were the case,

01:42:04   then even if all-in-one PCs were other pieces of trash,

01:42:06   which they were, then there would be more of them.

01:42:09   - So people bought tons of all-in-one PCs

01:42:10   back when the iMac was popular.

01:42:11   You remember when everyone was copying the iMac

01:42:13   and making all-in-one computers,

01:42:14   it's just that they were terrible.

01:42:16   - No, the PC ones never sold, nobody ever bought those.

01:42:18   - But they made tons of them

01:42:19   because they were trying to cash in on the iMac.

01:42:20   - They made them, no one bought them.

01:42:22   - I wouldn't look to the PC market

01:42:24   as a reflection of what people who buy Macs want.

01:42:26   Like I said, the Apple sells a lot of all-in-one iMacs,

01:42:29   they sold a lot of 27-inch ones as well.

01:42:30   - I don't think they did sell a lot of 27-inch iMacs.

01:42:33   Like I'm thinking of all the people that I know

01:42:35   that have 27-inch iMacs, and I can't think of anyone

01:42:39   - Are they still using them?

01:42:41   - that had or has a 27-inch iMac

01:42:43   that wasn't some sort of like creative

01:42:46   or like a software professional.

01:42:49   Yeah, I know, like my friend Steve,

01:42:51   who did the icon for Masquerade,

01:42:52   He has an iMac Pro, he does design for a living.

01:42:55   - And keep in mind too, a huge reason to buy the iMac

01:43:00   since like 2015 was that it was,

01:43:05   well, when was the Retina iMac, was it 2014?

01:43:08   - Somewhere around that. - 2014 or 15.

01:43:09   - Yeah, yeah, 2014, yeah.

01:43:10   So that's the last eight years when the Retina,

01:43:13   that was the only way to get Retina on the desktop

01:43:16   for a very long time. - Yeah.

01:43:18   - I mean, more importantly, to get a bigger screen

01:43:21   than a laptop screen.

01:43:21   Because again, people who are buying a desktop computer

01:43:24   probably want a screen that's bigger.

01:43:26   And the third party monitor market was terrible,

01:43:29   but if you bought an iMac, you got a really nice screen,

01:43:31   and by the way, a computer stuck to it as well,

01:43:33   and it was just one thing.

01:43:34   - Right, and now, I bet a lot of those 27-inch iMacs

01:43:38   that were sold over the last eight years,

01:43:40   myself included, a lot of those people

01:43:43   would have gone the separate route

01:43:46   if the studio display or equivalent existed.

01:43:49   - Yep. - Oh yeah,

01:43:49   the computer nerds would have.

01:43:51   But I think a lot of Photoshop people, for example, who just do art, like you think,

01:43:55   "Oh, Photoshop, that needs a high-end computer."

01:43:57   Not these days.

01:43:58   If you're doing 2D illustration work, a 5K iMac, you could still be using a 2015 5K iMac

01:44:02   and using Photoshop every single day on it and you'd be perfectly fine.

01:44:05   And the key feature that you want for it is, "I need a big screen for all my palettes and

01:44:09   stuff."

01:44:10   You don't need a pro computer.

01:44:12   You don't need to upgrade them separately.

01:44:14   Like again, the 24-inch iMac exists because Apple still thinks there's a market for people

01:44:19   on an all-in-one desktop computer with a larger screen.

01:44:20   And all I'm saying is that does still exist

01:44:23   and the extra three inches don't invalidate

01:44:24   that entire product.

01:44:25   - I understand the words that are coming out of your mouth.

01:44:30   I'm team Marco on this.

01:44:31   I really don't think that the 27 will be coming back

01:44:35   as an additional computer peer to the 24.

01:44:39   - That wasn't the thing.

01:44:40   I was saying it could replace the 24

01:44:42   just because the streams need to get bigger.

01:44:44   - I don't see that happening.

01:44:45   It's too big.

01:44:46   For a lot of the cases where you want a cute little desktop,

01:44:50   27 would be too large.

01:44:52   Imagine that on a reception desk in an office.

01:44:54   A lot of these are sold for places like that.

01:44:56   - Look at the measurement, though.

01:44:57   With a thin bezel, 27-inch iMac,

01:44:59   and the current 24-inch design would probably be

01:45:01   like half an inch bigger, half an inch wider,

01:45:04   and half an inch taller.

01:45:05   We have to do the measurements,

01:45:05   because there are huge borders on the 5K iMac.

01:45:08   You forget how big they are.

01:45:09   I was just doing the measurements

01:45:10   for the thing we're gonna get to in a second.

01:45:11   Studio Display, those borders,

01:45:15   big black borders around the Fabtech iMac, they make that machine much bigger than it is, which is

01:45:19   again why I think that a 24-inch iMac design with a slightly larger screen I think will inevitably

01:45:24   happen and if it happens within three years I get a dollar from Marco. Either way, I really think

01:45:30   that you are dramatically over-inflating the market for a 27-inch iMac. Now in the same way that I'm

01:45:38   pooping on you for having no facts to back up your your suppositions and your theories, Apple won't

01:45:43   give us the sales numbers if they tell us we could just look it up.

01:45:45   I know, I know, I know. It's not your fault. For so many people, like people who genuinely

01:45:51   don't give a crap, they'll buy the 24-inch HiMac. For people that want a really nice

01:45:56   monitor they'll be getting something that I'm so excited to talk about. And for people

01:46:00   who want like their own spin on things, like I know a lot of people that, a lot of, you

01:46:06   know, nerds and PC people that don't want to talk about anything that is less than like

01:46:10   30 inches and about 17 feet wide. Yeah but it's like a three inches high and it looks

01:46:16   like you're looking out of a gun slit of like a... Right! No, I don't understand why people

01:46:21   like this but you do you. Ultra wide, curved. Seriously, no, that's exactly it. And so I

01:46:27   really really am 150% on the same boat as Marco here, well the boat that's stuck in

01:46:33   the sound or whatever it is. But no, I really think that Marco is right and I strongly agree

01:46:39   that I think that there could be a place for a 27-inch iMac. I'm not saying that that place is

01:46:46   gone now, but I really think that it's already mostly filled by what we've got today. And I

01:46:53   think that once we get a slightly better equipped Mac Mini, something that can perhaps have at least

01:47:00   32 gigs of RAM or something along those lines, maybe with an M2, maybe just an M1 Max or an M1

01:47:06   Pro, whatever the permutation may be. Once the Mac Mini can scale itself up just a touch,

01:47:13   and then you've got the studio display, I really truly think that that is Apple's intended solution

01:47:21   for the former 27-inch iMac buyer, or the former casual 27-inch iMac buyer.

01:47:26   No, look at the casual 27-inch iMac buyer wants all-in-one more than they want a big screen.

01:47:30   That's why they're going to get the 24. The strongest argument you have is that anybody who

01:47:34   who wants a 27-inch all-in-one,

01:47:36   wants an all-in-one more than they want the power,

01:47:38   and they're just gonna go to the 24,

01:47:39   and they'll be happy 'cause it's colors.

01:47:41   - I don't know, who are you talking to

01:47:43   that insists on an all-in-one?

01:47:45   Where are these three people?

01:47:46   - People like all-in-ones.

01:47:47   Talking to people, the people who buy an iMac

01:47:51   are attracted to the idea that there's less crap.

01:47:54   And you're like, "Well, how much crap is it?

01:47:55   "The Mac Mini's tiny, it's like three cables.

01:47:57   "It's not a big deal."

01:47:58   They want it to just be a thing you plop in your desk,

01:48:01   that's the whole computer.

01:48:02   They want it to be like on TV and movies,

01:48:03   where people think the screen is the computer.

01:48:04   When you shoot the screen, you've killed the computer.

01:48:06   You know that's a trope?

01:48:07   It's a trope because that's how people think about it.

01:48:08   They think the screen is the computer.

01:48:10   And with the iMac, that's actually true.

01:48:12   They don't need a little Mac mini saucer puck thing

01:48:14   that they don't understand attached.

01:48:15   - See, but if people want an all-in-one computer,

01:48:18   you know what they buy?

01:48:18   A (beep) laptop, that's what they buy.

01:48:21   That's what they buy, Jon.

01:48:22   - People who are in the market for an iMac

01:48:24   are already saying, "I need something

01:48:25   "with a bigger screen than a laptop."

01:48:27   They're already moving themselves out of that market.

01:48:29   They're choosing to not buy a laptop.

01:48:31   Obviously, most people buy laptops.

01:48:32   know that but anyway someone in the chatroom Mike 484 I don't know if Mike

01:48:36   for a whore worked at an Apple store but says I'm telling you guys 2007 2014 in

01:48:40   the Apple store 27 inch iMac outsold all desktops I don't know if that's true we

01:48:45   actually don't know the numbers it would help if we did but we'll see I mean if

01:48:49   you really want me an infinite time on you I'll just go back to what I said

01:48:51   before it's like screen sizes tend to go up over time so the idea that the iMac

01:48:55   is gonna stay at 24 is just as absurd as the idea that it was gonna stay at 21.5

01:48:58   it stayed at 21.5 for a long time much longer than my three-year window for the

01:49:02   granted, but it didn't stay at 21.5 forever.

01:49:06   Eventually the cheapest iMac became 24.

01:49:08   And why?

01:49:09   Because if you're gonna buy an iMac,

01:49:10   it probably means you want a bigger screen

01:49:12   and screen sizes go up over time

01:49:13   and no one's gonna argue with a little bit more screen space

01:49:16   up to a certain limit.

01:49:18   Obviously when we get into the 65 inch iMac,

01:49:20   we're getting a little bit silly,

01:49:21   but people are buying 42 and 48 inch OLED televisions

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01:51:17   (upbeat music)

01:51:19   - Can we please-- - Let's move on.

01:51:22   - Can it be my turn now, please?

01:51:24   - Can we stop talking about displays

01:51:26   and talk about a display?

01:51:27   - Yes, exactly, thank you.

01:51:29   So after much whining and moaning

01:51:34   and complaining and fussing,

01:51:36   I am happy to report that on behalf of everyone,

01:51:39   I alone have manifested the studio display.

01:51:44   You are welcome.

01:51:45   What WWDC thing did we do where you two idiots

01:51:49   made us walk out to We Are The Champions?

01:51:51   - The Mac Pro? - It's not we.

01:51:53   It's not we. - The Mac Pro.

01:51:54   - I'm the champion, my friend.

01:51:56   - No, you'd be the champion if you had a studio display,

01:51:58   but you don't.

01:51:59   - No, you would have caused this to happen

01:52:02   if you would have bought an XDR.

01:52:04   Then it would have been your fault that it happened.

01:52:06   - Oh, please.

01:52:07   After all the whining I've been doing,

01:52:08   I'm claiming this is a personal victory.

01:52:10   So what do we got?

01:52:11   We got a studio display.

01:52:12   - You're still not gonna buy it.

01:52:12   - We'll see, we'll see.

01:52:13   - You're not gonna buy it.

01:52:15   - We'll see.

01:52:15   - All right.

01:52:16   - We've got a studio display.

01:52:18   - If that LG 5K stops working again,

01:52:20   I'm not sure he can bear to send it to City of Industry

01:52:22   for one more.

01:52:23   (laughing)

01:52:25   - I think we saw a view of City of Industry

01:52:26   during this presentation.

01:52:27   We saw so many cities and cities of chips,

01:52:31   it was ridiculous.

01:52:32   But anyway, so yeah, so we got a studio display.

01:52:34   This is presented by Nicole Cordes.

01:52:37   This is a 27-inch LG 5K that doesn't suck balls.

01:52:41   That's basically the summary.

01:52:43   - And there's a few things that are important

01:52:44   about what it's not.

01:52:45   - Yeah, that was the interesting thing about this.

01:52:47   - Yeah, it doesn't support HDR, XDR, whatever.

01:52:50   It doesn't have micro LED.

01:52:52   - It's not high refresh rate either.

01:52:54   - Yeah, not high refresh, it's just a 60 hertz,

01:52:57   27 inch, 5K good screen.

01:53:00   It's not as good as the XDR or as big,

01:53:03   but it also costs like a fourth as much.

01:53:08   - And this is kind of interesting because we were talking

01:53:10   about this before of like, well, the laptops,

01:53:12   they have these amazing screens, 1600 nits or whatever,

01:53:14   but of course they're laptop size.

01:53:15   But then we were going through the whole thing of like,

01:53:16   well, let's look at 27 inch screens that have

01:53:19   like modern specs.

01:53:20   And it was like, but they cost so much money.

01:53:23   It's like, well, but maybe they're cheaper now because the laptop screens are obviously

01:53:26   not that expensive because the whole laptop isn't that expensive, but also they're smaller.

01:53:30   So maybe panel tech has caught up and they'll be able to put out a 27-inch monitor that

01:53:36   has good modern specs but also is less than an XDR.

01:53:40   And I still don't know whether that's a thing that's possible, but it's not a thing that

01:53:43   Apple did.

01:53:44   And I think when we were talking about it, we were like, but would they make a 27-inch

01:53:46   monitor that's just the same as the 5K?

01:53:49   Wouldn't they try to make it better in some way?

01:53:51   And as far as I can tell, the answer is no.

01:53:53   It's not better in any way that I can tell.

01:53:55   It's P3, it's 60 hertz, it's 5K.

01:53:58   Not that this is bad, it's a good monitor, right?

01:54:00   And do they pass those savings on to you?

01:54:02   Kind of.

01:54:03   - And what's great about this, this is, again,

01:54:07   like yeah, it doesn't have all that latest, greatest tech.

01:54:10   It doesn't need to.

01:54:11   What this monitor needed to be

01:54:14   is pretty much exactly what it is.

01:54:16   Like they nailed exactly what they needed to ship

01:54:20   Because people who want this monitor

01:54:23   and who have wanted this monitor for eight years--

01:54:26   - High.

01:54:26   - Yeah, high.

01:54:28   People who want this monitor want it to be

01:54:32   significantly less expensive than the XDR.

01:54:35   They want it to be as similar as possible

01:54:38   to what we've had in the aforementioned 27-inch iMac

01:54:40   for the last eight years.

01:54:43   And they want it to be good Apple stuff,

01:54:46   all integrated, not made by stupid LG,

01:54:48   good quality, looks nice, all that stuff,

01:54:51   and they wanted it to be a reasonable price

01:54:54   for what it is from Apple.

01:54:56   And once the rumors started up,

01:54:59   and we talked about this recently enough,

01:55:02   my guess for what the pricing on an Apple 27

01:55:05   external monitor in 2022 would be,

01:55:08   I was saying the least I expected it to be was like $1,800.

01:55:13   And the highest plausible price

01:55:17   that I think it might have been

01:55:18   was $3,000.

01:55:20   (laughing)

01:55:20   And so to come in at 1600--

01:55:23   - Asterisk.

01:55:24   - But you were saying that it would have some modern specs,

01:55:26   either it would be high refresh or it would be HDR

01:55:28   or it would be mini LED or some mixture of those, right?

01:55:31   - Still, for today's Apple to release

01:55:34   a standalone 5K monitor that's good,

01:55:39   again, not super cutting edge on those fronts,

01:55:41   but good for $1600

01:55:45   is exactly what they needed to do.

01:55:48   and I'm so happy they did it.

01:55:50   I mean, look at the, you know,

01:55:52   we thought this event was gonna be fairly low key.

01:55:56   We thought it was gonna, you know,

01:55:57   until the rumors came out right after we published

01:55:59   our show last week, we thought this event was gonna be like,

01:56:02   yeah, a couple of new iPads, new iPhone SE,

01:56:05   maybe some new watch bands.

01:56:06   - And then the big iMac would be the star.

01:56:08   - Even that was a maybe.

01:56:10   And it turns out this event settled so much old business.

01:56:15   To have this display in the lineup

01:56:18   and for it to be what it is and what it costs

01:56:22   solves so many problems for so many people.

01:56:26   - Yep.

01:56:27   - It sucks, this is so great.

01:56:29   And to even then get the quote mini Mac Pro

01:56:33   that we've been expecting for a while,

01:56:35   but we didn't think that was ready yet.

01:56:37   We didn't think the mini Mac Pro or Jade 2C or 4C stuff

01:56:40   was coming out until later this year.

01:56:42   So to have this all come out today,

01:56:46   I just said last week that we heard the display rumors,

01:56:50   but they didn't seem like it was gonna be ready

01:56:52   for like, you know, any time soon.

01:56:53   I was saying like six months to a year.

01:56:55   - And then after we recorded, everybody said,

01:56:56   "Oh, actually the monitor's ready."

01:56:57   So yeah, we missed that one again.

01:56:59   - But like-- - Excuse me,

01:56:59   I said I thought it was gonna happen, thank you very much,

01:57:02   and you two jerks said no way.

01:57:04   - I mean, because we had just been hearing the same rumors,

01:57:06   but none of them ever had dates.

01:57:07   It was like, they're making a monitor,

01:57:08   they're making a monitor, it's got a,

01:57:10   it's got a, you know, a series chip in it,

01:57:12   They're making a monitor, it's like, yeah, but when?

01:57:13   And it's like, oh, I don't know,

01:57:14   it'll come eventually probably, but here it is.

01:57:16   - And it just, again, this fills an eight year hole

01:57:20   in the lineup.

01:57:21   - Yes, well put, well put.

01:57:22   - That is so great, and the fact, I mean,

01:57:26   I just, I'm still kind of blown away,

01:57:28   I still almost can't believe, you know,

01:57:31   it's like we've been missing this for so long.

01:57:34   Like I almost can't believe that it's here finally,

01:57:36   that people who want a 27 inch 5K Retina display

01:57:41   display for a Mac we actually finally have that we actually have an external

01:57:48   retina display for Macs that is the right DPI that is anywhere close to the

01:57:53   right DPI that is less than $6,000 with its stand like that's that's incredible

01:57:59   we've been missing this for so long it's such a huge hole and it's now filled

01:58:03   what was the first retina Mac the the 15 inch 2012 MacBook Pro so it's been 10

01:58:11   years, right? Because we didn't have an Apple retina external retina display until now.

01:58:16   We had an LG external retina display. There was a brief window of time. There was a Dell

01:58:20   one.

01:58:21   Well, you had an XTR obviously.

01:58:22   That doesn't count because only weirdos buy that. It doesn't count because only weirdos

01:58:25   are too much money to buy that. Hey, fellas. Anyway, this is the first time in 10 years

01:58:29   that we've had an external retina display by anyone other than LG, really. And this

01:58:35   is extremely exciting. It is a little disappointing in the sense that yes, like HDR would have

01:58:41   nice from any LED or so on and so forth but the the LG 5k when it was brand brand new I believe it

01:58:48   was fifteen hundred dollars wasn't it or thereabouts there's something that fall apart and and i have

01:58:53   i am i waffle back and forth between an LG hater and LG apologist depending on the moment in which

01:58:59   you catch me and whether or not my monitor happens to be working at that particular moment but right

01:59:03   Right now I'm on a happy swing.

01:59:04   The LG Ultrafine 5K is a sufficient monitor.

01:59:09   It is a rip off at $1,300 when it's working.

01:59:13   It's a rip off at $1,300 or whatever it is new.

01:59:15   It was a hilarious rip off at 16, $1,500,

01:59:19   whatever we just said it was.

01:59:20   - I thought it was $1,200 new, but I could be wrong.

01:59:22   - No, no, now it is.

01:59:24   - It's in shouting, today it's in shouting distance

01:59:26   of the price of this monitor.

01:59:27   And that's the thing that really makes this monitor

01:59:29   to look good is its complete lack of competition.

01:59:32   because if you compare it to the LG,

01:59:34   like the two things that Mark didn't mention

01:59:36   that I really think put this monitor over the top,

01:59:38   decent speakers, by all accounts,

01:59:40   which LG does not have.

01:59:41   - Oh, I can attest to this.

01:59:43   - Decent speakers and a camera.

01:59:45   That makes it a system completer for people,

01:59:47   because who wants a monitor,

01:59:49   but I gotta buy a webcam and I gotta stick it on the top,

01:59:52   but I gotta do a thing.

01:59:52   It's like when I have a laptop,

01:59:54   because remember, this is not like,

01:59:55   oh, this is the computer for the Mac Studio.

01:59:57   This is a monitor for all the laptops.

01:59:59   Like Mark was saying,

02:00:01   This is not just one single hole in the lineup,

02:00:03   it's a huge number of holes in the lineup

02:00:05   filled by this thing,

02:00:06   and it lets you have the complete experience.

02:00:09   I don't have to add a camera,

02:00:10   I don't have to buy external speakers,

02:00:12   I just plug whatever my Mac is

02:00:14   with one cable into this thing,

02:00:16   and by the way, it's 96 watts of charging,

02:00:18   so it will charge everything.

02:00:19   This is a system completer.

02:00:20   That's what this product is.

02:00:22   And that's why I think the most important things it has in it

02:00:24   are actually the speakers and the camera,

02:00:26   because that lets you not worry about,

02:00:29   It does all the things you need it to do.

02:00:31   Because if you don't care about HDR,

02:00:33   don't care about mini LED,

02:00:34   you're probably on Zoom calls and it's nice to have a bit.

02:00:37   And by the way, it's a decent built-in camera.

02:00:38   It's not like, oh, it's a,

02:00:40   whatever the old one was, like the 1080p camera.

02:00:42   It's not that.

02:00:43   It's a decent camera and good features.

02:00:46   Yeah, and center stage.

02:00:48   So I really think they nailed this product

02:00:50   with the obvious exception of the stand,

02:00:52   which is some weird Johnny Ive hangover

02:00:54   that I don't quite understand

02:00:55   and we'll talk about in a second.

02:00:56   But forget about that.

02:00:57   No one's gonna buy that except for dumb people like me,

02:00:59   maybe, but yeah, this product definitely fills the role

02:01:04   and it does it, like it embarrasses the LG

02:01:06   because like would you pay an extra couple hundred bucks

02:01:09   for Apple quality, better speakers, and a monitor,

02:01:13   and by the way, it charges your laptop

02:01:14   and it's got like, it's like stop, yes,

02:01:16   I'll totally pay that for this product, like it works.

02:01:19   Yeah, the value is-- - Reliably.

02:01:21   - Right. - Well, and if it doesn't work,

02:01:22   where do you go with it?

02:01:23   Do you have to ship it to city of friggin' industry?

02:01:26   No. - That's all.

02:01:27   of industry. It's not their fault that LG has their center there. Still, you don't have to ship

02:01:31   it to the city of industry. Like, they didn't even have the common courtesy to be somewhere in the

02:01:34   Midwest like, you know, other grown-up companies. Anyway, you don't have to ship it anywhere,

02:01:38   generally speaking. You just take it to the local Apple store. I know some of you don't live near

02:01:43   an Apple store. Just bear with me here. You know, you take it to the local Apple store. For me,

02:01:46   it's like 10 minutes down the road. Don't be creepy. And then I can get it repaired if I were

02:01:51   to buy one, which I mean, I don't know. I forgot to mention the three mic thing. The noise, like,

02:01:55   "Again, the business is like,

02:01:56   "Oh, who needs the mics?"

02:01:57   Or, "Well, because the Mac Studio doesn't have a mic,

02:01:59   "and the laptop mic is over there,

02:02:00   "and maybe it's a clamshell.

02:02:01   "Wouldn't it be great if the monitor had a mic?"

02:02:03   Yes, it does, it does all the things.

02:02:04   Like, you just, you plug your computer in,

02:02:06   and now you have a system with a monitor

02:02:08   that does all the monitor things

02:02:09   that you expect a Mac monitor to do,

02:02:11   and you don't have to worry about any of the crap.

02:02:13   So, this is great.

02:02:15   - For anybody for whom the price

02:02:17   of this monitor seems absurd,

02:02:20   I bet most of those people would not be in the market

02:02:23   for an Apple monitor at all.

02:02:25   - Yeah, what are you cross shopping with?

02:02:27   Oh, this is expensive.

02:02:28   So show me the other Retina 5K monitor that you can use.

02:02:30   Is it the LG?

02:02:31   Well, we've talked about that.

02:02:32   - Right, like if you want an inexpensive PC monitor

02:02:35   that is totally not the right DPI range

02:02:39   for either Retina or non-Retina use on a Mac,

02:02:41   there's lots of options for that for like a few hundred bucks.

02:02:43   Great, do that.

02:02:45   This monitor is filling a hole in the lineup

02:02:48   that many people have demanded,

02:02:50   and it fills it exactly right at exactly the right price

02:02:54   for what we expected it to be.

02:02:55   And that is, I'm so happy about that.

02:02:58   Even with, and you know, if I were to get this,

02:03:01   I would be the sucker who spent the extra few hundred bucks

02:03:03   on the height adjustable stand,

02:03:05   because every Apple monitor and iMac

02:03:09   that I ever bought before, the stand was too low.

02:03:12   - Yeah, they're too low.

02:03:13   - Yeah, and this continues that trend.

02:03:15   And so I would always have some kind of like book

02:03:17   or some kind of big metal something

02:03:20   or other that I would stick it on top of.

02:03:22   - I had multiple books.

02:03:23   I had college textbooks that I carried with me

02:03:26   from job to job whose sole role was to be

02:03:28   beneath my Apple monitor to get it at the right height.

02:03:30   - Right, exactly.

02:03:31   And so I would pay after a few hundred bucks

02:03:34   for the tilt stand.

02:03:36   Even that, that makes it a $2,000 monitor,

02:03:39   which is still roughly what I expected this monitor to cost.

02:03:43   I'm so happy.

02:03:44   Even though I'm not gonna buy one 'cause I have the XDR now,

02:03:47   but like, and which has ruined me forever,

02:03:48   as Jon mentioned earlier, 'cause now I want 6K forever,

02:03:50   but still, this is so great for so many people.

02:03:54   This makes, this answers so many questions of like,

02:03:57   okay, well I want a good Mac desktop situation,

02:03:59   but I also want a laptop.

02:04:01   Bingo, buy this, you're done.

02:04:02   Most of these are probably gonna be sold

02:04:03   to people who have laptops.

02:04:05   Like, that's great.

02:04:06   Oh man, so, so happy.

02:04:08   - And it's like the kind of the realization

02:04:10   of like the Thunderbolt display with the weird cat tail

02:04:12   where you can charge your laptop or whatever,

02:04:13   like technology's gotten to the point

02:04:14   where that is all solved as well.

02:04:16   So this is totally solid thing now.

02:04:19   This is Apple's first non ridiculous monitor.

02:04:22   I was gonna say, it's their first monitor.

02:04:23   Again, we're ignoring the XDR because it's ridiculous.

02:04:26   There is room for more monitors

02:04:29   if Apple ever wanted to make them.

02:04:31   They can make a 4K version of this

02:04:32   for people who wanna spend less money

02:04:34   and don't want as much space.

02:04:35   Same features, slightly lower price, make it 4K.

02:04:38   Like you were saying like,

02:04:39   oh, this is too expensive or whatever.

02:04:41   We'll get a PC 4K monitor.

02:04:43   The problem with the PC 4K monitor is it won't have a camera,

02:04:45   won't have decent speakers and won't have microphones.

02:04:47   You're like, well, I can buy things and stick them on

02:04:49   and now you're screwing everything up, right?

02:04:50   So there is a market for a 4K.

02:04:52   And there's also a market for a more expensive version

02:04:55   of this that has some of the modern stuff.

02:04:57   Maybe it has HDR, maybe it has Mini-LED,

02:04:59   maybe it has iRefresh.

02:05:00   Pick whichever of those you think are important.

02:05:02   It would obviously be more expensive,

02:05:03   but there's a lot of room between this sucker and the XDR

02:05:06   for you to slot in a higher end one.

02:05:07   So Apple could, in theory, have three external displays.

02:05:11   Not today, baby steps, one is good,

02:05:13   and they picked the right one to make.

02:05:14   This is the one to make, 5K, right?

02:05:16   Because if people wanted 4K, they could get that.

02:05:18   You can get decent 4K monitors

02:05:21   and deal with the old peripherals.

02:05:22   But if you wanted 5K, you were screwed and you were KC.

02:05:24   You just had to be dealing with the LG.

02:05:27   So this was absolutely the one to make.

02:05:29   I really do hope that they start expanding this.

02:05:31   The one thing that gives me a little bit of pause,

02:05:33   again, not complaining about this product.

02:05:34   It's specced and priced and everything about it is right.

02:05:37   But now that all the laptops have HDR,

02:05:40   it kind of makes the desktop people feel like,

02:05:43   Also, if I want to look at HDR stuff, my only choice is I had to open up my laptop screen

02:05:48   Which is amazing or I have to get an XDR, which I'm never gonna get

02:05:51   HDR the more I've the more I've dealt with the the XDR the more I think I thought it's like when I first got it

02:05:57   I'm like, I don't even care with HDR. I just want a 6k screen

02:05:59   But at this point like every movie I take on my phone is HDR the photos. I think of my phones are HDR

02:06:06   It's nice. That's why I mean I sit in front of the computer and I go through photos and videos

02:06:11   I see them in HDR. Why? Because I have this stupid monitor that shows them that way.

02:06:15   And if you have a Mac laptop, you get to see all that stuff.

02:06:18   But if you have this thing, you won't. And I know HDR doesn't seem like a big deal,

02:06:22   but Apple's devices are producing HDR and most photos that most people make are gonna be produced by, you know,

02:06:28   their phones and not by some weird camera thing. So,

02:06:31   I think HDR, if I had to pick one feature that like, what does the version of this two years from now have? Or what is

02:06:37   the higher end version of this have, HDR is what I pick.

02:06:40   Not high refresh and not mini LED.

02:06:42   Because I feel like mini LED to get better blacks,

02:06:45   blooming is a problem anyway, don't worry about it.

02:06:47   And high refresh, not a big deal,

02:06:49   but we're all producing HDR content, the laptop have HDR.

02:06:53   That is the next obvious upgrade to this monitor.

02:06:56   I wouldn't want it to come with HDR now

02:06:58   and be an extra thousand bucks, absolutely not.

02:07:01   This is the right product for, it's overdue.

02:07:03   This is an overdue product.

02:07:04   It's not the right time.

02:07:05   The right time was three years ago, right?

02:07:07   but it was overdue six years ago.

02:07:09   - I think 10, but okay, fine.

02:07:11   - It should be what it is, but I am now counting the years,

02:07:15   I'm not gonna say counting the days,

02:07:16   I'm counting the years for this product to get HDR,

02:07:19   because it really deserves it.

02:07:21   And part of it is Apple's fault

02:07:22   for having such phenomenal laptop screens,

02:07:24   'cause this really kind of like pins it in on both sides.

02:07:26   And also, by the way, this makes me,

02:07:29   this is, you know, always looking for reasons

02:07:30   to make myself feel better about buying this stupid monitor.

02:07:33   This makes me feel slightly better about my XDR,

02:07:36   because now I'm like, you know what?

02:07:38   I don't have to worry about the fact that it doesn't have HDR

02:07:39   'cause my stupid mother has HDR

02:07:41   and it only costs five times as much.

02:07:43   (laughing)

02:07:45   - Right, and so cosign on all of that.

02:07:47   Like I too, you heard me say it here,

02:07:50   when I bought the XDR, I didn't care about HDR.

02:07:53   I was only buying it 'cause it was a good retina large screen

02:07:57   and that's what I wanted.

02:07:58   And I have since come to very much appreciate

02:08:00   the HDR display and exactly for the same reason.

02:08:03   I'm not watching HDR movies like from studios and stuff

02:08:05   on my, or producing them for that matter, on my computer,

02:08:08   I'm viewing photos in photos that I take on my phone

02:08:10   and viewing videos that I shoot on my phone

02:08:12   and they're HDR and it looks really cool.

02:08:14   And it looks like I was there, which I was, but you know.

02:08:17   Anyway, so. (laughs)

02:08:20   This is why I talk unscripted for a living.

02:08:22   But yeah, it is really nice.

02:08:25   However, again, yeah, totally agree.

02:08:28   They shouldn't have added it in the 27 inch

02:08:31   if they couldn't do it for this price yet.

02:08:33   and they didn't, and so I assume they couldn't,

02:08:36   and that's great.

02:08:37   And down the road, if they get to add that at some point,

02:08:39   that's great too.

02:08:41   But getting this to be in the 1600 range,

02:08:46   that was really, really what was needed here.

02:08:49   - You know how Apple can actually do this,

02:08:52   obviously not this year or whatever,

02:08:53   but the way that we're going to sort of solve

02:08:56   this conundrum of, oh, if you want a really big monitor

02:08:58   with HDR across $5,000, right,

02:09:00   The other choice is HDR but on a smaller monitor.

02:09:04   Who is it?

02:09:04   Dell has a QD, and we talked about them fast,

02:09:07   Quantum.OLED.

02:09:08   They have a QD OLED screen.

02:09:11   It's not retina resolution, I believe, but it is smallish.

02:09:14   I forget, how big is the QD OLED Dell thing, chat room?

02:09:17   They'll look at it for us and it's like maybe 30 something.

02:09:18   It's like wide form factor or whatever.

02:09:20   - Is it the 8K one or that's something else?

02:09:22   - No, no, but anyway, it is a computer monitor.

02:09:25   It's made for gaming, right?

02:09:27   It's OLED, so true blacks, better than mini LED,

02:09:30   you know, per pixel blacks, right?

02:09:32   Really great color, HDR, not as, not 1600 nits,

02:09:35   but still HDR, more than 500 nits.

02:09:38   And it's reasonably priced.

02:09:40   It is, I think it's like the number starts with a one.

02:09:42   It's a four digit number starts with a one.

02:09:44   It's like 1300, 1500 or something or whatever.

02:09:46   That shows that we are within shouting distance

02:09:49   in a few years of grinding on QD OLED

02:09:51   to be able to have a 5K QD OLED screen

02:09:56   for not a huge amount of money.

02:09:57   'cause if they can do like whatever this resolution is

02:10:00   for now, is it $1,300?

02:10:02   Whatever, it's a 34 inch wide screen,

02:10:04   it's non-retina, right?

02:10:05   For 1,300 bucks, this is a generation one QD OLED thing.

02:10:09   It makes me think that the potential

02:10:11   of a reasonably priced QD OLED,

02:10:13   like QD OLED everywhere across all of Apple's products,

02:10:16   but especially on a desktop, will solve this problem

02:10:19   probably before we get to the point

02:10:21   where mini-LED HDR is affordable,

02:10:24   that you can put it in a 5K Retina Res $1600 display.

02:10:28   - I'm just so happy that this thing exists.

02:10:29   I'm so incredibly happy.

02:10:32   The unfortunate thing about it though

02:10:33   is that I already have a 5K monitor

02:10:34   that is really not that different from this one.

02:10:38   Well, it depends on the day.

02:10:38   - You can sell that.

02:10:39   You can say it's refurbished.

02:10:41   - That is true, freshly refurbished.

02:10:42   - The USB ports are as good as they're ever gonna be.

02:10:45   - That is true.

02:10:46   - You could use both.

02:10:47   You could have like the dual display lifestyle,

02:10:49   which I know you love.

02:10:50   - You know, it's funny you bring that up

02:10:52   because I do love the dual display lifestyle,

02:10:55   and I like having my two displays, my 5K and my 4K.

02:10:59   Marco, you said that there was no chance

02:11:01   I paid the money for this because I'm cheap.

02:11:03   And John, do you have a vote?

02:11:05   - Oh, whether you already bought it?

02:11:07   I so much hope that you did that I'm gonna say yes, you did.

02:11:11   - So I hemmed and hawed because why would I pay $1600,

02:11:16   especially as much as $2000,

02:11:20   for a monitor that is really not that different

02:11:22   than what I have.

02:11:24   However, I've paid the price with this LG.

02:11:28   - You pay every day you use it. (laughs)

02:11:29   - And I pay every day I use it, and I deserve a treat.

02:11:33   So a friend was kind enough to offer me his Apple discount,

02:11:38   which was very cool, and so I was able to acquire one

02:11:42   at a slightly discounted number,

02:11:45   and it will be here in a month.

02:11:46   - Nice, which standard you get?

02:11:49   Here's the thing with the studio display.

02:11:53   - You didn't face amount it, did you?

02:11:55   - So here's the thing with the studio display.

02:11:59   I didn't know what I wanted to do

02:12:01   because I really do like the dual monitor lifestyle.

02:12:03   I know it's not for everyone, that's fine,

02:12:05   but I really do like the dual monitor lifestyle.

02:12:07   And I could swallow the 400 bucks

02:12:11   for the height adjustable stand.

02:12:15   But right now, I have a two up Visa situation on my desk

02:12:20   that's actually working out pretty well.

02:12:22   So I have my 4K to the right,

02:12:25   the 5K Ultra Fund in front of me.

02:12:26   And I actually really like this.

02:12:28   And since I have to choose the purchase time,

02:12:31   you cannot swap back and forth, I went with the VESA mount.

02:12:34   And I think I'm gonna be happy with that.

02:12:37   I sure hope I am 'cause this ship has sailed.

02:12:40   But that's what I did.

02:12:40   So it'll be here sometime mid-April.

02:12:42   And what I plan to do is put the LG 4K,

02:12:47   which by the way, we were talking about this earlier,

02:12:49   what are your options for a retina display?

02:12:51   As I've said many times, this LG 4K

02:12:54   is a perfectly serviceable monitor if you're not snooty.

02:12:58   And I am not terribly snooty usually.

02:13:00   - And if you don't need it to be reliable or--

02:13:02   - Well, no, no, no, the 4K, the LG 4K is very reliable.

02:13:05   - Oh, the 4K, yeah.

02:13:06   - The 4K is very reliable.

02:13:08   - 4K also shakes when you type though, doesn't it?

02:13:10   - No, that stand was better.

02:13:12   Not stellar, but it was better.

02:13:14   But nevertheless, it doesn't have a camera.

02:13:15   It does have speakers, but they're utter trash.

02:13:19   They make the ultra-fine speakers,

02:13:20   which are truly garbage, sound excellent.

02:13:23   And so it's not a all-in-one solution,

02:13:25   but as an accessory monitor, it's not bad.

02:13:28   So anyways, this LG 4K will be put to the side

02:13:31   and maybe used as like a,

02:13:33   I wanna work on the porch monitor

02:13:34   because I'm turning into that guy.

02:13:37   And then I think what I'm gonna do

02:13:39   is I'm gonna shimmy the 5K over to its spot

02:13:41   and it will be my, the existing 5K to that spot,

02:13:45   and it will be my accessory monitor,

02:13:47   and the new studio display will be my primary monitor,

02:13:50   and that's what I plan to do, and I am so excited,

02:13:52   and I can't wait 'til mid-April.

02:13:54   - Let me just talk about the Apple stand problem

02:13:56   a little bit, I mean, if you look at it,

02:13:58   it looks like it's similar to the XDR stand

02:14:00   in terms of the mechanism, at least aesthetically speaking,

02:14:03   similar kind of like rounded thing that comes out,

02:14:07   and whatever they have inside there for counterweighting

02:14:09   and all this other stuff.

02:14:11   And that stand, plus 400 for a stand, that's not appropriate.

02:14:16   Apple, go to your corner.

02:14:18   And it's not appropriate for the--

02:14:19   Well, in all fairness, that's very similar to the Pro stand

02:14:22   that cost $1,000 by itself.

02:14:24   I know.

02:14:24   But for the Pro one, everything is absurd up there.

02:14:27   It's ridiculous, it doesn't make any sense.

02:14:28   But this is a $1,600 monitor.

02:14:31   An adjustable stand, if you want to make it an optional extra,

02:14:35   it shouldn't be $400 extra.

02:14:37   And the way you do that is don't use the over-engineered one

02:14:39   you made for the XDR.

02:14:39   I know that probably saves you some time.

02:14:41   we don't need to engineer it again, we've got one.

02:14:42   But the problem is the one you engineered

02:14:44   costs a lot of money to make,

02:14:45   and then you need to make your margins,

02:14:46   and then you need to make margins on top of the margins,

02:14:49   'cause every time you have options,

02:14:50   that's where you get all your margins from.

02:14:52   And the final thing is what Marco said,

02:14:54   this thing is too damn low.

02:14:55   Apple's monitors are just too low.

02:14:57   When I was looking at this,

02:14:58   'cause again, I haven't talked to him about what I'm buying,

02:15:00   if anything yet, I was waiting for Big iMac,

02:15:04   I didn't get a Big iMac,

02:15:04   but my wife doesn't need a new computer,

02:15:07   and I was like, oh, what about this stand?

02:15:08   Let me look at what the heights are.

02:15:11   How high is her current iMac?

02:15:16   And if I got the one that didn't have the adjustable stand,

02:15:18   if it's just the height of her current iMac,

02:15:20   maybe that's fine.

02:15:22   Well, there's two problems.

02:15:23   One, when I asked her about this,

02:15:24   she said her current iMac, she always

02:15:26   felt it was a little bit low.

02:15:28   So right away, I have to say, OK,

02:15:30   well, I don't want to match the height of our iMac

02:15:31   because she feels like that's low.

02:15:33   I should get it higher.

02:15:34   The problem is, if you get it with the regular stand,

02:15:37   It is even lower than the current,

02:15:39   than basically a 5K iMac.

02:15:41   So the non-adjustable stand is very low,

02:15:43   kind of like it is in 24-inch iMac.

02:15:45   It's not the height my wife prefers it,

02:15:47   and ergonomically speaking,

02:15:48   where they say where your eye line should be on the monitor,

02:15:51   all those things are very low.

02:15:52   I kind of understand why Apple

02:15:53   errs on the side of being lower,

02:15:55   because higher feels more awkward than lower,

02:15:57   'cause looking slightly down at something is much better,

02:15:59   Casey, than looking slightly up at them,

02:16:01   which is why you shouldn't put your TV over at the fireplace.

02:16:03   But that's what they do.

02:16:05   And then your only option is,

02:16:06   adjustable stand or you can just put books under it because books are way cheaper than

02:16:09   400. Well maybe not. Actually maybe not the textbooks that I've been putting under it.

02:16:13   There's another whole other issue there right. So here are the things. The regular stand height

02:16:20   to I think this is the top of the monitor is 18.8 inches. For $400 you get adjustable height

02:16:27   and the adjustable height the minimum adjustable height is 18.8 inches. So if with the adjustable

02:16:33   stand at its lowest position, that's how high the non-adjustable stand is. The non-adjustable

02:16:38   is not in the middle of the range, it's the bottom of the range, right? And the max height

02:16:41   is 23 inches. And an iMac 27 inch is 20.5 inches, but there's a huge bezel on top of

02:16:47   the thing. So it's really like 19.5 inches to the pixels, right? So yeah, the non-adjustable

02:16:53   one is low, be prepared for that. I haven't seen anyone look this up, but could you stick

02:17:00   the monitor on top of the Mac Studio or is the stand too big? Would it hang off the edges?

02:17:05   I don't know the answer to that question. That might be awkward but you can only just

02:17:09   put books out.

02:17:10   But also I think that would be too high then.

02:17:12   Probably but you never know. Anyway, I'm sure people will work something out. Apple

02:17:16   never showed it in that arrangement. I think it would be awkward and potentially dangerous

02:17:19   and tippy in that arrangement. It might not fit at all but just keep that in mind. The

02:17:22   other thing to keep in mind is that the stands are not interchangeable according to Apple.

02:17:26   Apple's little thing here says, "Note, each stand or mount adapter is built in.

02:17:30   They are not interchangeable, so it's important to consider your workspace needs at the time

02:17:34   of purchase."

02:17:35   So if you buy the adjustable one, and you want the regular one, or you buy the regular

02:17:39   one, and you want the adjustable one, and you want to switch to VESA, no go.

02:17:42   Now that's what Apple says, it could be when MacFixit gets this they realize it's something

02:17:45   you can swap out and do or whatever, but just keep that in mind.

02:17:50   And that's part of the unfortunate thing of Apple's weird stand problem, is it makes you

02:17:54   think about something you shouldn't have to think about.

02:17:56   If we just took it for granted that of course all Apple large display things for the desktop

02:18:01   come with an adjustable stand because that's ergonomically appropriate and Apple cares about

02:18:06   ergonomics, we should just take it for granted.

02:18:08   We shouldn't have to worry about how Apple figures out how to engineer it or whatever.

02:18:11   They would engineer the over-engineered one for the 6K and they would engineer a cheaper

02:18:15   one for the other things.

02:18:16   Keep in mind they produce the iMac G4 with that amazing spring-loaded ARM thing.

02:18:23   I was in like a $1,700 computer

02:18:26   and I think it was freaking amazing.

02:18:26   It had like a million degrees of motion.

02:18:28   You can move it with your fingertip.

02:18:30   If they can do that,

02:18:31   there's no reason it should be at $400

02:18:33   to get a slightly height adjustable display

02:18:36   on an otherwise well-priced monitor.

02:18:38   So I hope Apple works that out.

02:18:39   - Yeah, I'm just so excited this exists.

02:18:41   I'm so excited to get mine.

02:18:42   I am overjoyed that this tremendous gaping hole

02:18:46   in Apple's product lineup has finally been plugged.

02:18:49   It's not- - One more thing

02:18:50   to talk about with this product.

02:18:51   rumors were that it would have an A-series system on a chip inside it.

02:18:55   We're trying to figure out what the hell they would do with that. If it was a

02:18:58   weird made-up rumor where they use the GPU to augment your GPU. Things I threw

02:19:03   in one of our Slacks the previous days like when you don't have a computer

02:19:06   attached to it it could double as an Apple TV because why not? And it turns out

02:19:11   they put an A13 in it right? So the Apple TV 4k, Apple's top-end Apple TV has

02:19:15   an A12 in it. This has a better system on a chip than the Apple TV and it has a

02:19:19   gorgeous screen attachment. There's no reason, technically speaking, why they

02:19:23   couldn't have just made this an Apple TV. Would that be dumb? I don't know but

02:19:25   it's there. But the question is, alright so it's got an A13 in it, what the hell is

02:19:29   the A13 doing? Well, like I was saying whenever I was spitting out the rumors

02:19:33   of this, like the the simplest answer is probably that it runs the display. And

02:19:37   why do they use an A-series chip for that? Because Apple's got a lot of A-series chips.

02:19:40   Like, they can probably make A13s pretty cheaply these days. Maybe they got

02:19:45   bunch of them hanging around. Rather than custom designing a chip just for this display,

02:19:51   the A13 is a fully, you know, Turing complete tiny computer that you can make do whatever

02:19:56   the hell you wanted to do. And so I think what is the A13 doing inside there? Well,

02:20:01   probably mostly twiddling its thumbs, honestly. But when it's not twiddling its thumbs, it

02:20:04   runs the camera, runs the speakers, does spatial audio stuff, like handles like the USB, like

02:20:10   Like who knows, it does all the things.

02:20:13   It's again, would Apple have created the A13 for this monitor?

02:20:17   Hell no.

02:20:18   But if you got the A13 already and it fits in the pricing thing, it's probably a reasonable

02:20:23   thing to chuck in there.

02:20:25   Philippe Esposito on Twitter had this tweet which is potentially the grim future of this

02:20:31   product which he says, "I guess this is what happens when you put an A13 chip in a display

02:20:35   and it's using PLUTIL to dump a plist file

02:20:38   from I guess a beta version of Mac OS.

02:20:40   And in the plist file, it is a name value pair

02:20:44   and the name is title panic display

02:20:47   and the value is your display was restarted

02:20:49   because of a problem.

02:20:50   (laughing)

02:20:52   Yeah, when you've got a system on a chip in your display,

02:20:56   kind of like Marco's car,

02:20:57   you might have to reboot your display

02:20:58   and it crashes, we hope not.

02:21:00   And obviously there's processors inside the XDR,

02:21:03   there's processors inside all these things.

02:21:05   Apple didn't make a big deal of it,

02:21:07   but this is like the most overpowered display ever shipped

02:21:12   because the A13, don't forget, there's GPUs in the A13,

02:21:15   there's like the motion processor,

02:21:16   it's not like they can make a special custom version

02:21:19   of the A13, it's an A13.

02:21:20   It's got an image processor,

02:21:22   maybe they're using that for the camera.

02:21:24   This is the most overpowered display

02:21:26   probably Apple has ever made.

02:21:28   And I hope that it opens the door for them

02:21:30   because they fit it into the price envelope of this thing.

02:21:33   So the A13s are probably pretty cheap,

02:21:34   you know, and it's not a big chip to begin with.

02:21:36   It's a phone chip, not a Mac chip

02:21:37   and all that other stuff and it's old, right?

02:21:40   There is the potential to do

02:21:42   way more interesting stuff with this.

02:21:43   Hey, maybe Face ID.

02:21:45   Again, we didn't get Face ID.

02:21:46   It's not, we understand Face ID is not a thing on a Mac

02:21:49   for reasons that are frustrating to me,

02:21:51   but you know, again, people who repeatedly explain to me

02:21:55   how expensive and annoying it is to deal with Face ID,

02:21:58   I say it's on iPads.

02:22:00   It's just, anyway, if we get it eventually,

02:22:03   It'll be great to be in the monitor.

02:22:04   If we do, the A-series chip will already be in there.

02:22:06   If they just do that as the status quo,

02:22:08   like it makes me wonder if the XDR replacement

02:22:10   will also have an A-series chip in it

02:22:11   just because like that's how they're building monitors now.

02:22:15   Fine, I'm okay with it.

02:22:16   I just feel like there is a lot of wasted, not wasted.

02:22:19   There's a lot of potential that is not being used.

02:22:21   It's not wasted because they didn't,

02:22:22   it's not like the price is jacked up

02:22:24   because of the $30 A13 they had to stick inside the thing

02:22:27   or $15, whatever cost them that to make.

02:22:29   I think it's fine, but I am excited about the possibility

02:22:32   of doing more interesting things with that.

02:22:33   Primarily Face ID, but making it double as an Apple TV.

02:22:37   That sounds dumb, but you basically get it,

02:22:40   I guess you need storage.

02:22:41   You get it almost for free, right?

02:22:43   Just a streaming Apple TV.

02:22:46   Yeah, I guess you need WiFi at that point.

02:22:49   I don't know, I haven't really thought it through,

02:22:50   but anyway, there's a lot of compute in this monitor.

02:22:53   Hopefully they'll figure out something with it.

02:22:55   - Real time follow up from Jelly.

02:22:57   The foot on the non-adjustable stand

02:22:59   would fit on top of the Mac Studio.

02:23:01   So the max studio is 7.7 inches square.

02:23:03   The foot on the non-adjustable stand is 6.6 inches.

02:23:06   However, the adjustable stand is 8.1 inches.

02:23:09   So wamp wamp.

02:23:11   Yeah.

02:23:11   That's the other thing about the adjustable thing because it, because I'm

02:23:13   assuming it is straight up the thing from the, the same sort of hinge part

02:23:17   from the XDRs a thousand dollars.

02:23:20   It's kind of awkwardly proportion because that little hinge was

02:23:24   proportioned for this giant monitor.

02:23:26   When you put it on a smaller monitor, but the smaller foot, it kind of

02:23:29   makes the monitor jut out more a little bit.

02:23:32   So it's a little bit weird.

02:23:33   - Also the XDR can rotate, can it?

02:23:35   And I presume this cannot.

02:23:38   Well, the VESA mount allows or is able to be rotated

02:23:43   or you can mount it in portrait or whatever.

02:23:46   But I would assume that the tight adjustable stand,

02:23:48   it does not let you rotate the monitor.

02:23:50   - And the weird thing is like,

02:23:52   the over engineered hinge,

02:23:54   one of the things I complained about when I got my XDR

02:23:56   is that the hinge actually doesn't feel

02:23:58   that sort of precise or smooth or expensive.

02:24:00   It's kind of scrapey and not great.

02:24:02   Like it's very solid.

02:24:03   It's not like it's shaking or anything,

02:24:04   but it's not the premium experience you would expect

02:24:07   from a thousand dollars stand.

02:24:08   I feel like most of the thousand dollars is the fact

02:24:10   that I'm assuming the foot for the XDR stand

02:24:12   is like machined out of a single giant block of aluminum

02:24:15   and that's like half the cost right there.

02:24:16   - Yeah, probably.

02:24:17   - And you know, and I think that's also true to be fair

02:24:19   of these ones, like the iMac foot

02:24:21   and the non-adjustable foot.

02:24:22   I think those are also from a solid piece of aluminum.

02:24:24   It's just smaller.

02:24:25   As far as I can tell, I don't know,

02:24:26   or it might be friction welded or some other crap.

02:24:28   But this is what we miss with not having the Johnny Ive videos

02:24:30   where he tells us in intimate detail

02:24:31   how I manufacture every single part of these products.

02:24:34   - And then one final thing that Apple released

02:24:39   is a new silver and black keyboard/mouse/trackpad,

02:24:42   which I'm really, I think if I didn't just drop like $400

02:24:47   on a trackpad and keyboard,

02:24:49   I would definitely be buying a pair of these as well.

02:24:52   - Now are these the same ones that came with the Mac Pro?

02:24:55   - No, because they have touch ID.

02:24:57   I was confused by this too,

02:24:58   when I was going through the store and I'm like,

02:25:00   wait, aren't they always black?

02:25:02   I'm like, I guess not.

02:25:02   Because someone posted a picture of,

02:25:04   I think it was Merlin sent me a picture

02:25:05   of his like touch ID keyboard.

02:25:06   I'm like white keys, what is that?

02:25:07   And they have the black ones in there.

02:25:08   So I have, the Mac Pro one does indeed have black keys,

02:25:11   but of course no touch ID.

02:25:12   - Right, but what about the other,

02:25:14   like the pointy devices,

02:25:15   are those the same as the Mac Pro, I assume?

02:25:17   - Oh, I don't think I even unwrapped that mouse.

02:25:20   (laughing)

02:25:22   I don't deal with this.

02:25:23   If I can leave it minted package never having been done,

02:25:26   I will do so.

02:25:27   I'm pretty sure that's still in the Mac Pro box in the attic

02:25:29   and I don't touch that crap.

02:25:31   That's not crap.

02:25:31   It's not the mouse that I prefer.

02:25:33   - We've been going two hours and almost a half,

02:25:36   nearly a half.

02:25:37   And you just brought up the Mac Pro

02:25:39   and this is when we heard the quote,

02:25:41   which you had quoted earlier,

02:25:42   "Making our transition nearly complete

02:25:44   with just one more product to go, Mac Pro,

02:25:46   but that is for another day."

02:25:48   So they spent a lot of time during the Mac Studio portion

02:25:53   the presentation, kinda crapping all over the Mac Pro,

02:25:56   which made me laugh very, very hard,

02:26:00   and made me feel very bad for you and Steven Hackett.

02:26:02   But nevertheless, what do you think?

02:26:05   Oh, you never told us if you bought anything.

02:26:07   Is this the time to tell us if you bought anything, Jon?

02:26:10   - Sure, so again, the plan was,

02:26:13   my wife needs a new computer, she's in 2015 iMac,

02:26:15   it's a little bit creaky, I wish it had more memory,

02:26:18   I wish it was faster, especially because all the kids

02:26:20   have accounts on there too, and if they're gonna log into

02:26:22   a computer, it's gonna be that one.

02:26:23   if you have all three people logged in at once, your RAM is starting to get fights over

02:26:27   RAM sometimes switching users you can see it swapping stuff and it makes noise sometimes.

02:26:32   But no big iMac, right?

02:26:33   But I am the exact person that Marco talks about who appreciates the fact that if I can

02:26:37   get a separate monitor on a computer I prefer that to having an all-in-one.

02:26:40   My wife on the other hand is not excited about having another box on her desk even though

02:26:44   I told her it's going to be a very small box it's not going to be a big deal what do you

02:26:47   think of that?

02:26:49   My plan was okay I'm not going to wait around for a bigger iMac.

02:26:52   I like this better anyway even if my wife will grumble a little bit about having more

02:26:55   cables and boxes and wires.

02:26:58   In the end it will be good because I will upgrade the computer part of it more often

02:27:02   than every 7 years or whatever we're doing with this iMac.

02:27:04   I will do that just to sort of keep up with things.

02:27:08   So I'm like I should get a Mac Studio.

02:27:09   So what I should get is obviously the cheapest CPU because I don't, you know, she doesn't

02:27:12   need any CPU.

02:27:13   The M1 Mac is more than enough.

02:27:15   It's going to be so much faster than her computer.

02:27:17   Unfortunately one of the things I want out of it is more RAM because again 3 kids logged

02:27:21   in at once and doing stuff and the kids launch in photoshop now because they know how that

02:27:25   works and you know I do need more ram and now I've got to like I can only max out at

02:27:30   64 because I'm not going to get the ultra so I guess I've got to look at the M1 max

02:27:33   with 64.

02:27:34   I mean that's probably plenty but you know grumble a little bit.

02:27:37   I don't care about the GPU we don't do any gaming on it but you get what you get right.

02:27:42   So that's how I can spec that out.

02:27:44   Disk space my problem before was stopping myself from spending money is I'm filling

02:27:48   up this external disk, I need a bigger external SSD, oh don't buy one, your big iMac that

02:27:54   you buy will have 4TB, so I have to go to 4TB and now I have to eat the stupid 4TB price.

02:27:59   Plus $1200, oh screw you, but alright fine.

02:28:04   And then I was like halfway through configuring this and I was like why am I doing this?

02:28:07   Now that the display is out, why not just get a Mac Mini?

02:28:09   And I was reminded why I don't get a Mac Mini RAM.

02:28:12   So back I go to the studio display page and I'm specing it out again.

02:28:17   And so what I ended up with, and we had a discussion about the adjustable height, that's

02:28:20   how I had the thing of like, do you care about the adjustable height stand?

02:28:24   She's like, how high is it?

02:28:25   And then she said it's too low.

02:28:26   We have to get the adjustable height because, or we have to put a book under it, and I'm

02:28:29   not going to make her have books underneath her computer, so we're going to get the adjustable

02:28:33   height.

02:28:34   So it's studio display, adjustable stand, Mac Studio with the cheapest CPU with 64 gigs

02:28:39   of RAM, 4 terabytes, right.

02:28:41   But kind of like Casey, and I assume Marco, I have friends and family who work for Apple,

02:28:46   and I wanted a friends and family discount.

02:28:48   And my friends and family said,

02:28:49   oh, we can't order that yet

02:28:50   because the Mac Studio is not available

02:28:52   for purchase under the friends and family plan, yet.

02:28:55   So, here I am, I have not ordered anything.

02:28:57   I wanna order something,

02:28:58   but I also don't wanna pay a lot for this muffler,

02:29:00   so I am waiting for it, (laughing)

02:29:02   for the employee, friends and family purchase,

02:29:04   whatever, blah, blah, blah thing

02:29:06   to make it possible for people to buy the Mac Studio.

02:29:09   As of, I think, last night,

02:29:11   it is still not possible to do that.

02:29:13   So I am just patiently waiting.

02:29:15   And by the way, the shipping dates

02:29:16   these things that are pushing out like weeks and weeks and weeks. So who knows when I'll

02:29:18   have it.

02:29:19   Yeah, I was going to say, like, I think you waiting for your discount to work is going

02:29:22   to cost you like three months at least.

02:29:24   Yeah, I mean, that's fine. Again, this is a seven-year-old computer and she's not, she

02:29:27   kept saying she doesn't need a new one, so she's not in a hurry to get it. So, you know,

02:29:31   I'm, unfortunately it seems like ATP as a whole, Marco will probably beat me to buying

02:29:35   this when he eventually caves and...

02:29:37   By the way, and I've actually never used one of those friends and family discounts for,

02:29:42   you said that I, that you assumed I'd do it. I don't. I've known...

02:29:44   - I assume you have friends or family at Apple

02:29:48   and you definitely have friends at Apple

02:29:49   who you could get the discount.

02:29:51   'Cause that's the point of the friends and family discount.

02:29:52   It's not like we're getting some inside deal.

02:29:54   If you work for Apple, you have a certain amount

02:29:56   of friends and family discounts that you can give

02:29:57   to family but also friends.

02:29:59   So if you are friends with someone in Apple,

02:30:01   they might be able to get you a discount on your computer.

02:30:03   And when I looked at what the friends and family discount was

02:30:05   'cause you can see the prices, it's substantial.

02:30:08   'Cause what they do is they cut down on the margins

02:30:11   and I end up buying all the stupid options

02:30:13   that kill the margins.

02:30:14   you're like, wow, that option for the four terabyte SSD

02:30:17   is still obscene, but not as obscene.

02:30:19   It ends up being like,

02:30:21   I think on this particular computer,

02:30:22   it's like $900 savings, right?

02:30:24   So it is not small beans.

02:30:26   And especially since I'm kind of like,

02:30:29   honestly, for my wife, a Mac mini and the studio display,

02:30:32   I would get that for her if I could get it with more RAM.

02:30:35   Because she does not need the Mac studio.

02:30:37   - This is what Marco and I are saying.

02:30:38   - I don't particularly, but you can't,

02:30:40   'cause it's M1 and it's only 32.

02:30:41   - Today, on an infinite timescale, John,

02:30:43   you'll be able to.

02:30:44   - Yeah, I bet the next Mac mini update,

02:30:48   I think will close some of that gap.

02:30:51   - Yeah, anyway, and yes, this next,

02:30:53   just to be clear for all the making fun of my 4-pack pro,

02:30:56   yes, this Mac studio, the low end Mac studio I'm getting

02:30:59   will probably stomp all over my Mac Pro.

02:31:01   - Oh, totally.

02:31:02   - To that point, two things.

02:31:05   One, I, totally unrelated to this announcement,

02:31:07   'cause this is just the thing I was doing,

02:31:09   I was noodling around a weekend or two ago,

02:31:13   playing with Microsoft Flight Simulator in Windows 10,

02:31:17   in HDR and not 6K 'cause that's a beast of a game.

02:31:22   That's the thing I can't do with the Mac Studio

02:31:24   'cause I can't play Intel games, right?

02:31:26   So there's still things that my clunky old computer can do

02:31:28   that this one can't.

02:31:29   And on the front of the Mac, setting aside my personal stuff

02:31:33   one final note on the Mac Pro, like so that ending thing,

02:31:36   this is another thing I love about the new Apple.

02:31:38   Someone said, "Should we mention something

02:31:40   "about the Mac Pro?"

02:31:40   And they did, they just said it because if we didn't,

02:31:42   we'd spend this whole freaking show going,

02:31:43   "Oh my God, is the MacStudio the new Mac Pro?

02:31:45   "What about expandability?"

02:31:47   No, they said, "And we're gonna do the Mac Pro.

02:31:49   "Don't worry about it, we're still gonna get to that."

02:31:51   It was like, "Okay, good, now we don't have to waste

02:31:53   "any fretting over that."

02:31:55   They're still gonna do a monster,

02:31:57   horrendously expensive computer that's huge

02:32:00   and has tons of expansion and probably even bigger CPUs

02:32:04   somehow that we can't figure out yet.

02:32:05   They're still gonna do that.

02:32:08   But just looking today at the MacStudio,

02:32:11   what if I get a MacSpec MacStudio?

02:32:12   Isn't that like the best computer Apple owns?

02:32:15   When we talked about this before,

02:32:16   the possibility of Apple doing the Jade 4C

02:32:20   and counting up the GPU cores,

02:32:21   what I said was that it is plausible

02:32:24   that a Jade 4C type thing without a matter of GPU cores

02:32:28   can match or exceed the performance

02:32:29   of the best video card available in a Mac today.

02:32:32   But what I also said back then was,

02:32:34   but if you get a Mac Pro,

02:32:36   you can put more than just one

02:32:39   of the best GPU available today.

02:32:40   In fact, you can put four of them in there.

02:32:42   So if you look on Apple's Mac Pro page,

02:32:43   they will show you, hey, if you get two

02:32:46   of the Radeon Pro W6800X duos,

02:32:49   so two cards with two GPUs on it each,

02:32:51   you get 60 teraflops of single precision

02:32:54   computing power on it.

02:32:55   An M1 Ultra max spec'd up is 21 teraflops, right?

02:32:59   So even if you double that for a double M1 Ultra

02:33:02   or a Jade 4C, you're still at 40 teraflops.

02:33:04   So you're not able to put as much GPU compute

02:33:09   in the top of the line 2022 Mac Studio

02:33:12   as you can in a 2019 Mac Pro

02:33:15   because of the magic of expandability

02:33:16   in third-party video cards.

02:33:17   So it remains an open question.

02:33:20   Well, first of all,

02:33:21   that's why people would still buy Mac Pros

02:33:22   because if you really need maximum GPU

02:33:24   for whatever the heck you're doing,

02:33:25   you can put more of it into a Mac Pro

02:33:27   than you can in this thing, right?

02:33:28   And the second thing is,

02:33:30   why are they still making the Mac Pro?

02:33:32   Why doesn't everyone just use the Mac Studio?

02:33:35   Seems like the answer still might be,

02:33:36   Well, the Mac Pro has card slots

02:33:39   and things that can go into those card slots

02:33:40   are third party video cards.

02:33:44   Like again, it's an open question,

02:33:46   but the bottom line is the numbers just don't add up

02:33:48   to a world where there is a Mac Pro shipping

02:33:52   that is less computationally capable than one from 2019.

02:33:56   So I have to think that when the Mac Pro comes,

02:33:58   obviously it'll be CPU monster.

02:33:59   Like there's no, like the fricking Mac mini

02:34:01   is faster than this thing in CPU, right?

02:34:03   Whenever it's, obviously it will be a CPU monster,

02:34:06   But GPU wise, because the current 2019 Mac Pro,

02:34:10   because it has all those card slots

02:34:11   and because GPU vendors keep making new GPUs

02:34:13   and because you keep sticking them in the card slots

02:34:15   and there's a lot of them,

02:34:16   you just can't match that with the GPU

02:34:18   that's built into the system on chips.

02:34:20   So I don't know what Apple's gonna do here.

02:34:22   It's a real sort of decision point for them.

02:34:24   Do they continue to pursue the Mac Pro strategy

02:34:26   of you can have cards and stick them in there?

02:34:28   Or do they say, we're giving up on that

02:34:31   and in exchange, the ceiling is gonna be lowered on your GPU

02:34:35   but we think most of our customers

02:34:36   don't care about that anyway.

02:34:37   So we shall see probably December or next year.

02:34:42   It's hard to predict, but that's going to be exciting

02:34:46   and or incredibly disappointing

02:34:48   if they just put the M1 Ultra in it.

02:34:50   - That I think, I'm sure we'll talk more about this

02:34:54   in future episodes, but I do not expect

02:34:59   a Mac Pro with Apple Silicon and slots.

02:35:03   and I think they were pretty clear today,

02:35:07   like in all the comparisons they were doing to the Mac Pro

02:35:11   and including GPU and CPU comparisons,

02:35:14   you know, there were a lot of qualifiers on those,

02:35:17   like comparing it to particular GPU configuration XYZ

02:35:21   on the Mac Pro. - Or doing metal benchmarks

02:35:23   instead of picking benchmarks that are tailored

02:35:25   to their specific hardware that they know

02:35:26   they put in the system on a chip.

02:35:28   - Right, they obviously cherry-picked benchmarks

02:35:32   to make them look the best, but I think a lot of what they were showing us today, like

02:35:37   the way they chose to present certain things, a lot of it was basically saying, "Look,

02:35:42   you don't need the old Mac Pro anymore." Even though, you know, you're right that

02:35:46   the ceilings are higher on it for the expandability. The RAM ceiling is way higher. I believe it's

02:35:52   one and a half terabytes compared to 128 gigs. Like that's way higher, you know. It obviously

02:35:58   has higher ceilings.

02:36:00   But what Apple is trying to push here, I think it's pretty clear that whatever the new Mac

02:36:07   Pro is going to be, it's probably not going to be radically different than the Mac Studio.

02:36:15   It's probably going to be, you know, we're seeing how they're scaling their architecture.

02:36:20   They're scaling it by just multiplying the chip.

02:36:23   That's what they're doing.

02:36:24   They're taking the same system on a chip and they're multiplying it.

02:36:27   The M1 is very similar to the M1 Pro and Max,

02:36:30   and the M1 Pro and Max are very similar to each other.

02:36:33   The Max is just a longer version of it or whatever.

02:36:35   And then the Ultra is just two Maxes stuck together.

02:36:39   And if the four die plans come together

02:36:43   and that's what forms the Mac Pro,

02:36:44   which I think is the most likely outcome here,

02:36:47   then I don't think it's going to be any different

02:36:49   than just a bigger version of the Mac Studio

02:36:52   that has four of whatever the big CPU of the year is

02:36:56   glued together.

02:36:57   and no slots.

02:36:58   This is what I've been predicting for a long time

02:37:01   and I think I'm sticking with this prediction.

02:37:03   And when they make that transition,

02:37:06   there will probably be a bit of a regression

02:37:09   in certain maximums that are available

02:37:11   compared to the Intel slot-based Mac Pros.

02:37:16   But I think everybody will take that,

02:37:19   not everybody, I think most people will take that

02:37:22   in exchange for the other benefits that it will provide.

02:37:26   and I don't see them ever having third party GPU support

02:37:29   or slot support or any of that again.

02:37:31   I think that's all over.

02:37:34   - I mean, this is another area where it would help

02:37:35   to know Apple sales numbers because, you know,

02:37:37   I'm sure people who are, the five people who listen to us

02:37:39   are yelling like, slots aren't just for GPUs,

02:37:41   what about audio interface cards?

02:37:42   I have every one of the slots on my Mac Pro filled

02:37:45   with audio interface cards and those things are not GPUs

02:37:47   and you can't put them in a Mac Studio size thing,

02:37:49   so what are we gonna do?

02:37:50   And that's, to get back to the question we always get back

02:37:52   to is like, does Apple care about that market?

02:37:54   Do they want it?

02:37:55   the thing I still have trouble with is they made this big turn with the Mac Pro and said

02:37:59   we're going back into that market.

02:38:00   And I just feel like even just to recoup the cost on the investment of the tooling for

02:38:04   the Mac Pro case, they're just going to have to ship more computers in that case.

02:38:08   And if you ship computers in that case, you can't fill that case without expansion slots.

02:38:11   So I'm still in the camp that I think there's going to be expansion slots, if only because

02:38:16   if only as a consequence of the decision that they did make about the Mac Pro all those

02:38:20   years ago.

02:38:21   to sort of see that to its logical conclusion

02:38:23   and reap all of the money that they've already invested

02:38:26   in this particular computer,

02:38:27   it seems like they should at least make

02:38:29   one more round of computers with it.

02:38:31   But to your point, the way that Apple would pitch this is,

02:38:34   it's not about specs, like who cares how much RAM you have,

02:38:36   it's about capabilities.

02:38:37   What are you trying to do with your computer?

02:38:39   Oh, but I'm trying to render video in Final Cut.

02:38:41   Well, guess what?

02:38:42   This thing renders video in Final Cut twice as fast.

02:38:44   But how do you do it twice as fast?

02:38:45   You have half the GPU compute

02:38:47   and you have a quarter of the RAM.

02:38:49   It's like, don't worry about how we do it.

02:38:51   We're just telling you, the job that you wanna do,

02:38:53   we can render it twice as fast.

02:38:54   So now do you wanna buy this?

02:38:55   And you're like, but I want RAM.

02:38:58   And it's like, look, do you wanna render

02:38:59   twice as fast or not?

02:39:00   But that really depends on Apple precisely knowing

02:39:03   what people wanna do.

02:39:04   And unfortunately for Apple, if they want to,

02:39:07   let's say the market for audio professionals is important,

02:39:09   and if they want to keep that market,

02:39:10   and if that market demands a bunch

02:39:13   of physical interface cards,

02:39:14   and they're not gonna build those physical interfaces

02:39:16   into the computer, they're just gonna lose that market.

02:39:18   And it's just a question of which market do you want

02:39:20   which market do you not want, right?

02:39:22   I feel like it would be another flip-flop betrayal

02:39:24   for this point Apple say,

02:39:25   actually we changed our mind, no slots, right?

02:39:28   Even though I agree that for lots of important use cases,

02:39:31   you don't need that stuff.

02:39:32   You don't need 1.5 terabytes of RAM.

02:39:34   You could get away with less GPU compute

02:39:36   because Apple knows for those specific use cases,

02:39:38   whether it be image editing, you know,

02:39:41   or like machine learning or, you know,

02:39:44   obviously GPU video rendering,

02:39:46   Apple can highly tune these computers to that case,

02:39:49   but I still kind of feel like that's the Mac Studio.

02:39:51   That's the computer that does that.

02:39:53   And the Mac Pro is the outlet valve

02:39:55   for letting the Mac Studio be awesome

02:39:57   for the people who want it.

02:39:58   And for everyone else has weird needs

02:40:00   and is willing to pay a ridiculous amount of money.

02:40:02   Tower Mac Pro expansion slots,

02:40:04   ridiculous system on a chip conglomeration thing,

02:40:08   and also third-party video cards on top of it.

02:40:09   I don't understand how that works in my mind

02:40:13   for all the reasons we discussed in the past.

02:40:14   How do you do?

02:40:15   Do you have even more non-uniform memory?

02:40:17   Do you have 128 plus 128 plus another pool of extra RAM?

02:40:20   Do you have the big built-in GPU,

02:40:22   but then also the other GPU cards just use your computer?

02:40:24   I don't understand how it works.

02:40:26   This is, in many ways, way more fascinating and confusing

02:40:30   than the original Mac Pro froze,

02:40:31   because the original, the Mac Pro, the 2019 Mac Pro,

02:40:34   they said they were gonna make a modular computer,

02:40:36   and it straight up made a cheese grater,

02:40:38   like just a bigger, nastier one, right?

02:40:41   Made perfect sense, works, everything works out.

02:40:43   It's got a Xeon in it, it's got a bunch of slots.

02:40:45   Like, it is exactly what we hoped and thought it would be.

02:40:49   But the ARM-based Mac Pro is just this cloud,

02:40:52   a just giant nebulous cloud of hopes and dreams

02:40:55   and doubt and casey annoyance.

02:40:57   So, we'll wait.

02:41:00   I guess we probably got at least until the end of the year

02:41:02   to figure out what that's gonna be,

02:41:03   but I'm super excited.

02:41:04   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

02:41:06   Collide, Hover, and New Relic.

02:41:08   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

02:41:10   You can join at atv.fm/join.

02:41:13   And we will talk to you next week.

02:41:15   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

02:41:22   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

02:41:28   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:41:33   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

02:41:38   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:41:43   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:41:52   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:41:56   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

02:42:01   U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

02:42:04   It's accidental (it's accidental)

02:42:07   They didn't mean to accidental (accidental)

02:42:12   ♪ I've got no tech podcast so long ♪

02:42:16   - Apple's not getting one final one.

02:42:19   Mac OS 12.3 is coming out next week.

02:42:21   Apple said in a press release.

02:42:22   They pre-announced the product.

02:42:23   How do you know it's coming next week?

02:42:25   What if there's a last minute bug?

02:42:26   Oh no, so brave of them.

02:42:28   - I still, I can't believe like the way,

02:42:30   how they ended it with John Turnus basically saying,

02:42:33   there's only one more and it's the Mac Pro and it's coming.

02:42:36   - Only one more makes sense 'cause it's had one more product.

02:42:38   What product needs to be transitioned from Intel?

02:42:40   - Well, but in that one sentence,

02:42:42   he killed the 27 inch iMac.

02:42:44   - No, because the iMac has already transitioned to ARM.

02:42:47   iMac already did that.

02:42:48   - All right, let's talk about that some more

02:42:49   some of the time.

02:42:50   - But here's the real problem,

02:42:51   why are they still selling the Intel Mac Mini?

02:42:54   - That's a really good question.

02:42:56   - I mean, that's just weird.

02:42:57   Like, it's still, has the Mac Mini product

02:42:59   transitioned to ARM?

02:43:00   Yes.

02:43:00   Has, let's just name a product.

02:43:01   The only product left that has not transitioned

02:43:04   is the Mac Pro, so that doesn't say anything.

02:43:06   But I just love the fact that they said Mac Pro

02:43:08   because if it didn't, I'd swear this whole show

02:43:10   would have been wiped out with me tearing my hair out

02:43:12   over like, is the Mac Studio the new Mac Pro?

02:43:14   What does this mean?

02:43:15   (laughing)

02:43:16   I mean, again, they didn't say what the Mac Pro would be.

02:43:18   If the Mac Pro was just a Mac Studio in space gray,

02:43:20   then Marco was 100% right on his prediction.

02:43:22   But still, there's gonna be some product called Mac Pro

02:43:25   and it's gonna have an ARM chip in it

02:43:26   and they're gonna make it.

02:43:28   - I think they're gonna keep selling the Mac Mini

02:43:30   as Intel for a while longer,

02:43:32   for the same reason they're selling the Mac Pro as Intel.

02:43:35   Because a lot of people still have like weird,

02:43:38   specialized needs that require an Intel machine

02:43:41   or some capability.

02:43:42   - Is it Mac Mini Colos, the Mac Mini Colos machine?

02:43:44   - Probably, I mean like, I'm guessing,

02:43:46   'cause I mean a lot of Mac Minis are frequently used

02:43:49   in those kind of roles.

02:43:50   That's a critical part of what the Mac Mini needs

02:43:53   to address and so that actually does make sense

02:43:56   that they would keep offering that for a while.

02:43:58   - Oh wait, I think, doesn't Amazon have,

02:44:01   speaking of AWS, I think AWS has like an iOS server

02:44:04   build farm thing that you can do

02:44:05   and I think they use Mac Minis for it?

02:44:07   - That wouldn't surprise me, I mean that would make sense.

02:44:10   I mean that's the type of thing of like it's kind of like the whatever whatever those though the 101 the MacBook with the CD

02:44:15   Thing that they kept around forever for education. Yeah, the MD 101, LA

02:44:18   Yeah, I'm wondering if like the Intel Mac Mini is the equivalent of that

02:44:21   This is some big a bunch of big customers, maybe even just Amazon that say we're we're still buying Intel Mac Mini

02:44:26   So could you keep making it for us? Whereas no one's saying that about the 27 inch iMac. Yeah, exactly

02:44:30   You put them in server, right? I think I've seen that if you're seeing remember we saw the trash cans and server racks

02:44:36   Yeah on their side, right?

02:44:38   You can take anything and put it in a server rack if you try hard enough.

02:44:40   27 inch iMac?

02:44:41   Sure, just wedge it in there.

02:44:42   [beep beep beep]

02:44:42   (laughs)

02:44:44   (beep)