466: There's Probably a Wizard for It


00:00:00   Adam's gaming PC has started to regularly blue screen.

00:00:04   - Oh, you don't say?

00:00:04   So it's been, the Windows installation

00:00:06   has been there for six months or more?

00:00:08   - I have absolutely no idea what to do about it.

00:00:11   (laughs)

00:00:12   - Blow out the dust.

00:00:13   - Oh yeah, all kidding aside,

00:00:15   when I last regularly used Windows,

00:00:17   and we were talking before even the bootleg started,

00:00:19   Marco and I were, that I haven't regularly used Windows

00:00:23   in like a VM anyway since like 2018,

00:00:26   And I don't think I've had a Windows installation

00:00:30   since like the early 2010s.

00:00:33   Like I think I went maybe even earlier than that,

00:00:37   like late aughts, early 10s.

00:00:39   So it's been a long time since I've used Windows

00:00:42   for more than literally five minutes.

00:00:44   But when I was a devout or maybe avid,

00:00:47   I guess I should say Windows user,

00:00:48   it used to be the rule of thumb was every six months,

00:00:51   you destroy everything and put it back where it was.

00:00:55   and start anew so you would clean out all the cruft

00:00:58   and get all the junk out.

00:00:59   Now, it would not surprise me

00:01:00   if that is not at all the case today,

00:01:01   but how long has Adam's computer been operational?

00:01:04   - That was Tiff's first gaming PC

00:01:07   from like two and a half or three years ago,

00:01:10   something like that.

00:01:11   And so there's a number of factors here.

00:01:13   So number one, it was very well-specced at the time.

00:01:18   It has the mobile Nvidia 2080.

00:01:23   So it's actually a pretty well-specced computer

00:01:26   for two years ago, whenever we bought it.

00:01:29   The downside of the 2080 in a laptop

00:01:32   and whatever that giant version of it was to begin with

00:01:34   is that it's a very large, very hot running GPU.

00:01:39   And so already I'm thinking, oh no,

00:01:42   this laptop that worked totally solidly for two years

00:01:47   and that all of a sudden has started

00:01:48   blue-screening regularly while playing games,

00:01:50   Like, I don't feel great about that

00:01:54   from a hardware perspective.

00:01:55   But then I'm thinking like, well,

00:01:58   if it is something stupid and software related,

00:02:00   I'll feel really dumb if we ended up replacing it

00:02:02   or somehow getting it serviced.

00:02:03   I don't even know how it would do that.

00:02:05   (laughs)

00:02:06   And like, I'm so far from the PC world at this point,

00:02:10   I have no idea, like, can I sell this?

00:02:12   Can I trade it into somebody?

00:02:14   - That's the most Marco answer is,

00:02:16   ah, screw it, sell it and get a new one.

00:02:18   - You can sell anything that someone's willing

00:02:20   I don't think you need permission or knowledge

00:02:23   of the PC market to do that.

00:02:25   You can just put things for sale.

00:02:26   I mean, you just explained how to sell things on eBay.

00:02:28   This is a thing.

00:02:29   You can sell it on eBay.

00:02:29   - Yeah, but if the GPU might be flaking out,

00:02:32   I can't really in good conscience sell that to a person.

00:02:35   If there was some kind of trade-in thing,

00:02:36   I could do that, but--

00:02:37   - But you don't know that the GPU is flaking out.

00:02:39   You're just speculating.

00:02:40   It occasionally blue screens, but that could be anything.

00:02:44   - It regularly blue screens.

00:02:45   And it's so funny, because I'm so far

00:02:48   from using Windows regularly,

00:02:50   The last time I used Windows regularly,

00:02:51   the version I used was XP.

00:02:53   I never used Vista or anything after it

00:02:55   until getting these gaming PCs,

00:02:57   and we literally use them only for gaming.

00:03:00   So they're basically consoles to us.

00:03:02   We open them up and launch Steam or the Minecraft launcher

00:03:06   and go from there, and that's about all we do on them.

00:03:09   And so it's funny, all these years I hear,

00:03:12   you know, as nerds, you always hear stories of people

00:03:15   in your life, and you're like, oh, I don't wanna upgrade

00:03:17   to the latest software, it's gonna break everything.

00:03:20   And meanwhile, these PCs, they have Windows 10,

00:03:22   I think, on them, and they started asking

00:03:25   very aggressively for us to upgrade to Windows 11.

00:03:28   And I'm thinking of this, like from my point of view,

00:03:30   like, why?

00:03:32   Why would I want to touch anything?

00:03:34   It works, mostly.

00:03:36   It works now.

00:03:38   Why? - Except the blue screens.

00:03:39   - Well, yeah, okay, fair enough.

00:03:41   But the other two, they work totally fine.

00:03:43   So it's like, why would I want to do a software update

00:03:47   if everything works?

00:03:49   Whatever it's adding, I couldn't possibly care less about.

00:03:52   Like any features that's added into Windows,

00:03:53   I don't even know, I don't care.

00:03:55   These things are only gaming consoles to us.

00:03:57   And so like, the last thing I want is to

00:04:01   upgrade my version of Windows, which like,

00:04:03   best case scenario, nothing about my life changes.

00:04:07   That's the best case scenario.

00:04:09   And there's lots of worst case scenarios

00:04:11   where something that worked before doesn't now.

00:04:14   And I'm realizing like, this is how regular people

00:04:18   have thought about computers forever.

00:04:20   Like, it's so kind of funny and sad,

00:04:22   like, first of all, how many people never update

00:04:25   their software for this very good reason of like,

00:04:28   you know what, I did it once, it broke stuff,

00:04:30   I was burned and I don't wanna do it again.

00:04:32   And you know, asking analytically,

00:04:34   like, what's this thing gonna do for me?

00:04:36   And then also, like, how much hardware,

00:04:39   especially in the PC world, let's be honest,

00:04:42   how much hardware that's been perfectly fine

00:04:45   has been replaced due to software bugs

00:04:48   and the person would just like, look, I can't afford to

00:04:51   or don't have the skills to figure this out,

00:04:53   I'm just going to buy a new one.

00:04:55   Like, I can't tell you how many,

00:04:57   like when I was in the PC world,

00:04:58   I'm sure you both have seen this,

00:05:00   I can't tell you how many PCs I've saw people replace

00:05:03   that were just like, oh, it's old and slow

00:05:05   'cause it was full of spyware.

00:05:07   And like, you could have just reformatted

00:05:08   and reinstalled Windows on it and it would have been fine,

00:05:11   like the hardware was fine, but people,

00:05:14   Like so much PC hardware has been discarded

00:05:18   and replaced over time, that was totally 100% fine

00:05:21   because people were misdiagnosing software problems

00:05:23   for hardware problems or that was the easiest way

00:05:26   out of the problem for them or the fastest

00:05:28   or the only thing they knew they could do,

00:05:30   you know, whatever it is.

00:05:32   And here I am like waffling over that same dilemma,

00:05:35   like what do I do about this damn computer?

00:05:36   Like it's not, it's now it's unreliable.

00:05:39   Do we, do we replace it?

00:05:41   It seems kind of wasteful to replace it at this point.

00:05:44   - But why aren't you using the old ways?

00:05:46   Wipe it and reinstall.

00:05:48   I mean, that's a reasonable first step,

00:05:49   especially if the only thing you ever do with it is game.

00:05:51   Everything is on Steam or whatever.

00:05:53   It's not like you need to preserve anything.

00:05:55   Wipe and reinstall, and if that cures it,

00:05:56   then yay, it was some weird software thing

00:05:58   that you didn't have to figure out.

00:05:58   But at the very least, do that, right?

00:06:00   - Well, so, I'm thinking of that,

00:06:03   and that might be what I do next,

00:06:05   but I don't know how to do that anymore.

00:06:07   I have no idea how to do that.

00:06:09   I don't know where games are storing their files.

00:06:12   I have no idea how to preserve all the progress

00:06:16   Adam's made in his games.

00:06:17   - That's why Steam is good.

00:06:18   I mean, we talked about Steam before.

00:06:19   What does it bring to you?

00:06:20   For Steam, at least, you don't have to worry about that

00:06:22   because Steam will take care of it all.

00:06:24   Pretty much everything has Cloud Sync saves

00:06:26   and all the games, obviously, themselves are on Steam.

00:06:28   Minecraft, I don't know the answer to that,

00:06:30   but I assume Microsoft does a reasonable job.

00:06:32   But if you had individually installed a bunch of games,

00:06:34   yes, that's where you'd be.

00:06:35   But still, as I'm sure you know,

00:06:37   you can reinstall Windows without erasing the hard drive.

00:06:41   - Honestly, I don't even know how to do that.

00:06:42   Like, I don't even, like, I know there's probably some kind

00:06:44   of like-- - There's probably

00:06:44   a wizard for it.

00:06:45   - I know, there's probably, I probably like, you know,

00:06:46   hold some key command at boot and it probably has its own

00:06:49   like system recovery thing.

00:06:49   - Yeah, then you'll see a big DOS screen with white text

00:06:52   on a black background that'll tell you to hit F2

00:06:54   if you wanna do this and F3 if you wanna do that

00:06:55   and you'll feel like you're using modern technology

00:06:57   as you look at your drive letters.

00:06:59   - Let me jump into my BIOS, that's where I see

00:07:01   my RAM count up.

00:07:02   - Yeah, and by the way, if you had said okay

00:07:04   to that Windows 11 thing, you just would've found out

00:07:06   that you don't have TPM 2.0 and you can't upgrade

00:07:08   to Windows 11 anyway.

00:07:09   - Well, I don't even know.

00:07:11   Is that the trusted platform module?

00:07:12   Is that like, we actually did that?

00:07:14   - Windows 11 requires TPM 2.0.

00:07:16   You probably have it.

00:07:17   I'm just making a joke and I'm kind of bitter

00:07:18   because I couldn't update it.

00:07:19   I was willing to update my Windows gaming PC installation,

00:07:23   which is an external SSD that I plug into my Mac Pro.

00:07:27   It has like, what, I think I have Windows 8 on it,

00:07:30   or no, I must have Windows 10.

00:07:31   Yeah, I have Windows 10 on it.

00:07:32   And I was like, oh, I'll upgrade to Windows 11,

00:07:34   what the hell?

00:07:35   And it said, no, sorry, you don't have TPM 2.0.

00:07:37   and then I did all this googling to see,

00:07:39   does the Mac Pro have something that can fool

00:07:44   the Windows into thinking it's TPM 2.0 Xeon, I don't know.

00:07:47   And I just, I gave up, so I'm stuck on Windows 10 as well.

00:07:51   - I remember when the TPM stuff was first floated,

00:07:54   and this was back when I was using PCs,

00:07:56   and let's say the PC enthusiast community

00:08:00   was not very thrilled with the idea of basically

00:08:03   DRM support in hardware in our computers.

00:08:06   And it's funny to think back, like now in today's world,

00:08:09   we carry around these phones and we have tablets,

00:08:11   we have computers, all of them have hardware DRM support

00:08:15   deeply, like there's so much hardware DRM support.

00:08:18   Everything with an HDMI port has hardware DRM support.

00:08:20   Like there's so much hardware DRM everywhere

00:08:23   and all the devices and we just like,

00:08:25   not only did we lose that fight,

00:08:27   like we were annihilated in that fight

00:08:30   and like no one cared.

00:08:32   - Not really because part of it, like the reason,

00:08:34   The main benefit we get from TPM stuff and all the secure stuff that we have on even

00:08:39   Macs today and iPhones and everything is not the one that the TPM, like the anti-TPM people

00:08:45   complain about.

00:08:46   They're like, "Oh, this is going to put DRM and everything, and we're not going to be

00:08:49   able to share all our songs through Napster and something."

00:08:51   They would spin out all these things about how it's going to make it more difficult to

00:08:55   pirate stuff and make our software not ours or whatever.

00:08:58   But the actual main important function of all these things is to provide a chain of

00:09:03   trust for booting.

00:09:04   so that the machine knows that it's booting something

00:09:06   that is trusted.

00:09:07   And that chain of trust has to go all the way down

00:09:09   to the hardware to try to make it--

00:09:12   it's much, much harder-- not impossible,

00:09:14   because there are bugs in these things,

00:09:16   but much, much harder to sort of get a root kit in there

00:09:18   that even if you wipe the OS, you're still infected.

00:09:22   And that whole secure boot thing that's on the modern Macs,

00:09:25   it's on all our iOS devices and iPads and everything

00:09:27   like that, that is a thing about being confident that you're

00:09:29   running the OS you're thinking you're running, which

00:09:32   no one has a complaint about.

00:09:34   Everybody wants that.

00:09:34   No one wants to be root-kitted or exploited

00:09:38   in a way that's deep in your hardware.

00:09:40   But in theory, that same hardware could be made to like,

00:09:42   oh, this program won't run unless it checks for a secret key

00:09:45   that we embed in the secure enclave equivalent

00:09:47   in the TPM, blah, blah.

00:09:49   And that just didn't really happen.

00:09:51   Plain old normal software-based DRM,

00:09:53   like Fairplay or whatever the hell Apple calls

00:09:56   their modern one, is we had that back then

00:09:59   and we have it now.

00:10:00   And that's mostly all Apple uses for this type of thing.

00:10:03   Like all the exploits on the iPhone and everything

00:10:06   aren't about like, oh, I can't sideload

00:10:08   because Apple has encryption.

00:10:09   It's like, no, if you jailbreak the OS,

00:10:11   you can sideload whatever the hell you want.

00:10:13   And the jailbreak doesn't involve,

00:10:15   well, sometimes it involves breaking the hardware level

00:10:16   or whatever, but the slippery slope fantasies of TPM

00:10:20   and having this security hardware on all our devices

00:10:24   that Dystopia was gonna bring, it didn't bring it.

00:10:26   All it brought us was secure boot,

00:10:27   which is a thing we all like.

00:10:29   The Dystopia of DRM or anything

00:10:32   doesn't require the hardware,

00:10:33   it just requires people being annoying and stupid

00:10:35   with how they sell things.

00:10:37   And people still do that all the time.

00:10:39   Copy protection, DRM on, music is DRM free,

00:10:43   but Apple's iTunes movies are still not DRM free

00:10:46   for some stupid reason, because it prevents piracy,

00:10:49   because everyone knows you can't find movies on the internet.

00:10:51   Thanks, Apple, that DRM made sure

00:10:53   that no one will ever pirate a movie again.

00:10:55   Success!

00:10:56   No, what it did was it made it so I can't take screenshots

00:10:58   of movies to make jokes on Twitter.

00:10:59   That's what the DRM did.

00:11:01   That's what we should have been fighting about,

00:11:02   but that didn't require TPM.

00:11:04   That just requires stupid software.

00:11:05   Anyway, rant over.

00:11:06   - You know, I have a tangentially related question,

00:11:10   which I'm now totally derailing the conversation, but--

00:11:13   - This conversation was never railed, Casey.

00:11:15   (laughing)

00:11:17   - When there's something, like let's say something

00:11:19   that's exclusive to Disney+, I don't know,

00:11:22   like "Hamilton" a year ago,

00:11:24   and there exists on the back of,

00:11:28   falling off the back of trucks,

00:11:29   there exists a copy of "Hamilton,"

00:11:31   How are those captured?

00:11:33   Like, are people playing this on some sort of like TV

00:11:38   and then using like some illicit HD capture card

00:11:42   that doesn't respect DRM or something?

00:11:43   Like, how does that work?

00:11:45   - No, no, that is very weak sauce piracy.

00:11:49   You don't want to take an encoded file of some kind,

00:11:53   decompress it and play it,

00:11:54   then send it over a wire and then try to capture it.

00:11:56   - Agreed, but like how else do you do it though?

00:11:59   - Is it, do people use like HLS hacks

00:12:01   or doesn't HLS have DRM, like, optionally?

00:12:03   - So there's a million ways to pirate things, obviously.

00:12:08   I think one of the most common used to be,

00:12:11   back in the day when we had physical media,

00:12:12   was they would send screener DVDs to everybody.

00:12:14   - Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.

00:12:15   - And they would just get the actual digital files

00:12:17   off of there, and then they started watermarking them

00:12:18   and stuff like that.

00:12:19   Most streaming services either used to

00:12:22   or still have a way to send the actual encoded file

00:12:26   in pieces that you, you know,

00:12:28   and you can just sort of intercept those pieces

00:12:29   and stick them all together, probably with MFMpeg.

00:12:32   Kind of like what you do for the keynote streams, right?

00:12:35   If you can get the data as it would come into the decoder

00:12:39   to go onto your screen, capture it that way,

00:12:41   you don't have to play it and then recapture it.

00:12:43   - I mean, I think this is how,

00:12:46   so I'm actually talking a little bit outside my comfort zone,

00:12:49   believe it or not, but if I were to download something

00:12:52   from like nbc.com, you know, for, I don't know,

00:12:55   for example, like This Is Us or something like that,

00:12:57   Like I could use, hypothetically, YouTube DL,

00:13:00   or what is it, YTDLP is the blessed version now,

00:13:03   and I can log into my Verizon Fios

00:13:06   to show that I have access to this thing,

00:13:09   and it does magic, and I know that HLS is involved,

00:13:12   although now you know everything I know about HLS,

00:13:15   but one way or another, it does magic to do,

00:13:18   I think, exactly what you're describing, Jon,

00:13:19   but I had assumed and presumed

00:13:22   that it is not quite so simple for like a Disney+

00:13:24   or Netflix is another great example.

00:13:26   I just, I wonder how those are captured

00:13:30   if something, if a mature, reasonably mature tool chain

00:13:34   like YouTube DL can't do it, which I don't think it can.

00:13:37   - Well, I mean, the final way is just break the encryption.

00:13:39   I mean, it's easier said than done, obviously,

00:13:41   but like it only takes one person to do it.

00:13:42   And, you know, obviously DCSS broke

00:13:44   the DVD encryption ages ago, but every one of these things

00:13:46   that has some kind of DRM thing is crackable.

00:13:49   And getting back to the TPM thing,

00:13:52   maybe if there was a mandatory hardware component,

00:13:54   it would be slightly harder to crack these things.

00:13:56   And I say only slightly,

00:13:57   but there's a lot of security related hardware

00:13:59   that is just so thoroughly broken.

00:14:00   Like I think Intel stops shipping,

00:14:02   they announced they're gonna stop shipping

00:14:03   or stop supporting SGX,

00:14:04   which is one of their secure enclave things,

00:14:07   just because it was so thoroughly and massively broken.

00:14:09   And when it's in silicon at a bunch of chips,

00:14:11   you just have to basically say, yeah, that's over now.

00:14:14   We're not doing that anymore

00:14:15   because it's so thoroughly broken

00:14:17   and you can't change it 'cause it's in millions of chips.

00:14:19   And so it's like, that's not a thing anymore, right?

00:14:22   I wish DVDs had done that, but that industry moves slower.

00:14:24   But yeah, you can crack the encryption,

00:14:26   like they say in the movies.

00:14:27   Once someone gets through, it's open season and everything.

00:14:32   I think Fairplay was cracked pretty early on too.

00:14:34   I don't know if the current version of Fairplay is,

00:14:35   but that's the final way to do it.

00:14:37   It's like, you've got the file somewhere.

00:14:40   If I can download it in Disney+,

00:14:41   it's like, oh, but it's encrypted on your iPad.

00:14:43   How are you gonna play it?

00:14:43   Oh, we've broken that encryption already.

00:14:46   So there you go.

00:14:47   - All right, so where were we?

00:14:48   So how are you fixing your computer?

00:14:50   - We were pirating movies,

00:14:51   which is not possible because Apple puts DRM in everything.

00:14:55   - Right, and because of TPM,

00:14:57   I can't reinstall Windows possibly.

00:14:58   - Exactly.

00:14:59   - I have no idea.

00:15:00   - I mean, people complained about that,

00:15:01   but I think pretty much every modern PC supports TPM 2.0.

00:15:04   It was just people with some older PCs

00:15:06   or like enthusiast setups that didn't have TPM

00:15:09   or something locked out of Windows 11.

00:15:10   It's like, why do you even care?

00:15:11   Like, I don't know.

00:15:12   But anyway, it was a controversial move.

00:15:14   Anytime anything obsolete's hardware in the PC space,

00:15:16   someone complains.

00:15:17   - Yeah, I would imagine that's not gonna be

00:15:19   my limiting factor here.

00:15:19   My limiting factor is going to be,

00:15:21   A, am I ever really going to figure out

00:15:24   how to reinstall Windows on this laptop?

00:15:26   And then B, am I going to actually want to spend

00:15:30   probably a day, it's not gonna be a small operation for me,

00:15:34   'cause I haven't done this in how many years?

00:15:38   I mean, 20 years maybe?

00:15:40   It's been a long time.

00:15:41   And I'm sure everything is like,

00:15:44   I'm sure all the crappy stuff is the same

00:15:47   as it was 20 years ago,

00:15:48   but I'm sure a lot of the other stuff is totally different

00:15:49   and so I'm gonna have to relearn the entire process.

00:15:52   This is why people buy new computers

00:15:55   when they don't have to.

00:15:56   Because that's honestly an idea

00:15:58   that if this computer was a little bit older,

00:16:02   I would probably strongly consider this site.

00:16:04   And if there was an easy way to trade it in somewhere,

00:16:06   I would probably strongly consider that idea.

00:16:08   But it's not, and it's not.

00:16:10   And so after that, I'll figure out,

00:16:13   oh, how the heck do I do this?

00:16:14   - Probably easier than it was.

00:16:16   - And then how do I put on all the drivers and everything?

00:16:18   I don't wanna.

00:16:19   Who wants to deal with that?

00:16:20   Who has time for that?

00:16:21   - But I was gonna say, if you just reinstall Windows,

00:16:23   you won't have to reinstall the drivers, son,

00:16:25   if they'll still be there, I think.

00:16:26   - Oh, I doubt that very much.

00:16:28   But I don't know.

00:16:29   I mean, I'm probably gonna have to find some me of today,

00:16:34   like teenage me who, like, people, I used to--

00:16:38   - Guess what, that's Adam.

00:16:39   - I know.

00:16:40   People used to pay me like 100 bucks

00:16:42   to reinstall Windows on their PCs.

00:16:43   You know, adults would, like, when I was in high school,

00:16:45   'cause like, and now I understand why.

00:16:47   - Adam will probably give you the family rate.

00:16:49   - Yeah, right.

00:16:50   But now I totally understand why.

00:16:51   Like, if I could hire some kid to come here

00:16:54   and just do this for me and it would work for 100 bucks,

00:16:57   I would totally do that because--

00:16:58   - I'd do it for you for 100 bucks.

00:16:59   - That would save me a whole day.

00:17:00   All right, come on, come on over.

00:17:02   - As I mean, travel expenses are an issue.

00:17:03   - I'll pay the ferry.

00:17:04   That's it, you're on your own for gas.

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00:19:15   - All right, we should probably start the show.

00:19:16   And let's do that with some follow-up

00:19:18   as we are contractually obligated to do.

00:19:20   John Sambakos has a picture for us

00:19:25   with regard to their printer.

00:19:27   And oh my gosh, this is very distressing.

00:19:32   - Yes, this is his HP PhotoSmart 3100

00:19:36   Dexter Murder Room version.

00:19:38   This is an inkjet printer.

00:19:39   We will put a link to the tweet

00:19:40   and maybe Marco can make this chapter art,

00:19:42   or maybe not, you never know until you look.

00:19:44   Go look at the chapter art.

00:19:46   If your podcast player doesn't support chapter art,

00:19:48   try using Overcast, please, it does.

00:19:51   Yeah, inkjet printers are a mess on the side,

00:19:53   but turns out Richard Smith has a picture

00:19:56   of the inside of his printer,

00:19:57   and it happens to be the printer that Marco loves so much.

00:19:59   His HP M553 inkjet, color inkjet, whatever,

00:20:04   and it's a disaster inside there, too.

00:20:05   - It's a laser, it's a color laser.

00:20:07   It's massive, it's amazing.

00:20:09   How can you think it's an inkjet?

00:20:10   - No, I'm saying look at the picture.

00:20:12   Look at the show notes. - Oh, yeah, no, I saw,

00:20:13   - I saw, yeah.

00:20:14   - It's a mess.

00:20:15   - There's a little bit of magenta in the area.

00:20:17   - A little bit?

00:20:18   - A little bit?

00:20:19   Come on, man.

00:20:20   - I mean, this is what I mean.

00:20:22   You look inside a printer and it looks like, you know,

00:20:24   an ink murder room.

00:20:26   How does a paper pass through this

00:20:28   and not come out streaked with every color under the rainbow?

00:20:30   But apparently it does.

00:20:31   Apparently the paper path is clean,

00:20:33   but everything else is just destroyed.

00:20:35   - Oh yeah, those were slightly traumatizing.

00:20:38   And speaking of traumatizing, let's see who this was.

00:20:41   This is Brian Almeda, tweeted at me earlier today, and apparently there's a YouTube channel,

00:20:47   what is this called, Northridge Fix, and I believe this is a repair shop in Northridge,

00:20:52   California, and the proprietor will repair things and do videos showing him repairing

00:20:59   it.

00:21:00   And today, or actually yes, I think it was literally today, the proprietor repaired,

00:21:05   guess what, a broken USB-C connection on an LG Ultrafine 5K monitor.

00:21:09   works fine then what are you talking about you must be wrong these always work so anyway so

00:21:14   the monitor does not make an appearance but the motherboard does and in the span of about 15 video

00:21:22   minutes this gentleman uh and i found this fascinating because i my my electronics experience

00:21:28   was a little bit in college and then you know screwing around with raspberry pi what was it two

00:21:32   years ago now um and so i understand the general principles behind what's going on but if you had

00:21:37   had asked me to do any of these things it would have been a disaster. So anyways

00:21:40   he like you know repairs this connection including like you know removing some

00:21:45   solder, applying new solder, fixing some lines on the PCB like it's very

00:21:50   intricate and very interesting and in the span of 15 minutes this guy gets

00:21:55   this motherboard good as new. Meanwhile my LG 5k arrived at LG's repair center

00:22:00   in City of Industry California on the 22nd of December and I have heard

00:22:04   precisely **** about it since then. And I am getting more and more preferred by it.

00:22:10   So there's that. So that's my LG update for the day.

00:22:13   LG always has the best service case. This is totally an anomaly.

00:22:17   Yep, definitely an anomaly for sure.

00:22:19   This video shows the kind of repair that Apple does not allow or like to do, which means

00:22:23   changing components on the circuit board by re-soldering them or doing whatever. Apple's

00:22:29   solution is always new circuit board, fresh new circuit board, everything new. Because

00:22:33   this type of repair.

00:22:34   Inevitably, things will corrode later and blah, blah, blah.

00:22:37   If you've ever, I'm looking at this video,

00:22:39   if you've ever seen, what's his name, Louis Rossman,

00:22:43   the guy who was talking about it

00:22:44   in the right to repair thing,

00:22:45   he has a similar channel where he shows similar repairs.

00:22:48   Only he's got like the amount that this is zoomed in,

00:22:51   I think his is zoomed in maybe two to three times as much

00:22:54   for even tinier components.

00:22:56   And he's got these little tiny, tiny soldering,

00:22:59   iron needle-y things that look huge in the video,

00:23:03   but in reality are these tiny, you know,

00:23:04   because the smaller components get the harder this becomes.

00:23:07   So this looks like within the realm

00:23:10   that a human might be able to accomplish it.

00:23:12   But sometimes when Rossman does things,

00:23:13   I'm like, how far are you zoomed in?

00:23:15   It's like doing microsurgery where the tiny tip

00:23:18   of the hypodermic needle fills the entire screen

00:23:20   as if it's just like a tree trunk.

00:23:22   - So yeah, so anyway, it was interesting

00:23:26   and also depressing to see this.

00:23:27   So thank you to Brian.

00:23:29   So breaking yesterday, I believe it was,

00:23:32   Microsoft has decided to acquire Activision Blizzard for almost 70 billion dollars

00:23:38   so you might know you might have heard of Activision for a variety of reasons mostly their games but

00:23:43   Lately you might have heard about them because of the apparent frat house. That is their corporate culture and

00:23:49   So they Microsoft got them at a steal. They were worth like over 100 billion. I think like a year ago and

00:23:56   now they have acquired Activision Blizzard or are about to acquire Activision Blizzard and

00:24:01   And it seems like they're saying without saying

00:24:04   they're going to clean house of, at the very least,

00:24:06   the CEO, I think it's Bobby Kotick or something like that,

00:24:09   and potentially more of senior management at Activision,

00:24:11   which seems like a reasonable course of action.

00:24:14   - The numbers here are really big.

00:24:16   Someone, John Ehrlichman tweeted a list

00:24:19   of Microsoft's biggest acquisitions.

00:24:21   Number one is this one, the Activision Blizzard

00:24:23   for 70-ish billion.

00:24:26   Second place is LinkedIn.

00:24:27   I mean, this is like a list of companies

00:24:28   you forgot Microsoft bought.

00:24:29   Second is LinkedIn.

00:24:31   They bought them.

00:24:32   That was $26 billion, so less than half the size.

00:24:36   Nuance, the speech recognition company, they used to do Dragon Dictate, I think, but they

00:24:41   licensed their speech engine to tons of people.

00:24:43   That was $20 billion.

00:24:44   Skype was $8 billion.

00:24:45   ZeniMax, which no one has ever heard of, but I think we talked about on the show, was $7

00:24:49   billion.

00:24:50   ZeniMax bought id Software, Doomquake, all that things, and they owned a bunch of other

00:24:54   stuff as well.

00:24:55   Microsoft bought GitHub.

00:24:56   I'm not sure if people remember that, but they did.

00:24:58   That was also $7.5 billion.

00:24:59   - Nokia, I remember that too much.

00:25:02   7.2 billion, A-quantive, I don't even know

00:25:06   what the hell that is, 6.3 billion,

00:25:08   and then Minecraft for 2.5 billion.

00:25:11   So Microsoft has purchased a lot of things,

00:25:13   but this Activision Blizzard thing is big.

00:25:17   If you think about what they're buying,

00:25:20   I like reading the articles about it,

00:25:22   because they would have to,

00:25:23   they're writing an article for a general audience

00:25:24   that doesn't know who Activision Blizzard is,

00:25:26   so they have to say,

00:25:28   You don't know the name of this company, but here are the things they own that you might

00:25:32   have heard of.

00:25:33   The Wall Street Journal listed in their article said that they're getting a stable of popular

00:25:40   game franchises including Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, and Candy Crush.

00:25:44   So there's three choices from the very large catalog they're getting.

00:25:47   People have probably heard of Call of Duty, maybe World of Warcraft, probably Candy Crush.

00:25:51   If you haven't heard of the other two, you've probably heard of Candy Crush.

00:25:54   Activision Blizzard as the weird name implies is a huge conglomeration of

00:25:59   things. Blizzard used to be its own company, Activision used to be a game

00:26:02   company, then a game publisher and Activision bought tons of things and

00:26:05   eventually they bought Blizzard and they just got bigger and bigger and had more

00:26:08   and more IP and then Microsoft gobbled them all up. And a lot of people were

00:26:13   comparing this to like when Disney went and bought all the things. Disney bought

00:26:18   Star Wars, then they bought Marvel and of course they have all the Disney stuff.

00:26:21   And it's like wow Disney owns everything that's why Disney Plus can be a streaming service that has all the things like they're not small franchises

00:26:28   Disney bought Star Wars for was it four billion. I don't remember

00:26:32   I think they bought Marvel for also four billion. I may be in this specific numbers wrong, but those are mid

00:26:39   single digit billions for Star Wars and all of Marvel

00:26:43   and

00:26:45   They bought this game company for 70 billion

00:26:48   I mean you always hear like games are bigger than movies, which is true

00:26:51   But that should give you some idea of what how much what they bought was worth

00:26:57   they didn't just buy Star Wars they didn't just buy Marvel they bought tons of extremely lucrative franchises and

00:27:01   Customers they bought because people in the world of Warcraft for what is it multiple decades now at least one and a half decades

00:27:08   Or something those are subscribers who pay every month to play a game

00:27:11   There's a bunch of other games that are like that and all these other important franchises that make tons and tons of money

00:27:16   Not to mention you know future games that could be made by

00:27:20   by the various game development studios

00:27:23   that are within Activation Blizzard.

00:27:25   So it is a huge purchase.

00:27:28   The Wall Street Journal article said that

00:27:30   this would make Microsoft the world's third largest

00:27:34   gaming company, don't look at the notes,

00:27:37   try to guess what the number one and two are

00:27:40   without looking if you didn't already read it.

00:27:42   - Ah.

00:27:43   - Oh gosh, I did not read it

00:27:44   and I don't have the faintest idea.

00:27:46   - I'm gonna say number two is probably Nintendo.

00:27:49   Is electronic art still a thing?

00:27:51   - Believe so.

00:27:52   - Number one, probably EA and then number two, Nintendo.

00:27:55   - Well, you gotta think like a Stratechery, come on.

00:27:59   - WeChat.

00:28:00   - I mean, you'd probably know that in the company.

00:28:02   Anyway, number two, Tencent.

00:28:04   - Oh, of course. - That makes sense, yeah.

00:28:07   - The other thing you have to remember is that mobile gaming

00:28:09   is the biggest part of gaming, right?

00:28:12   Which we don't think about when we think of gaming.

00:28:14   And number one, and this is kind of bogus,

00:28:16   number one, Sony.

00:28:17   - Really?

00:28:18   Yeah, but here's the trick question, right?

00:28:22   Would make it the third largest gaming company by revenue.

00:28:25   Yeah, Sony has a lot of revenue,

00:28:27   but not all that's from video games.

00:28:29   I mean, Sony makes other things besides video games.

00:28:32   So I think that's a little bit bogus.

00:28:35   But that's why everyone is sort of like feeling

00:28:38   the ground shake, especially the sort of hardcore gamers

00:28:40   who don't maybe care that much about mobile

00:28:42   is because now Microsoft, who as you might know,

00:28:45   has multiple gaming platforms,

00:28:48   PC gaming, which basically means Microsoft PC gaming,

00:28:51   and not so much Linux gaming, and of course, Xbox.

00:28:55   And their competitors are on the console side,

00:28:57   are Sony and Nintendo.

00:28:58   Nintendo is the tiniest drop in the bucket

00:29:00   you could possibly imagine that are not on this list.

00:29:03   But now, Microsoft owns tons and tons of IP, as they say,

00:29:09   tons and tons of franchises, many of which, I would say,

00:29:12   most of which used to be available on platforms

00:29:16   other than Microsoft's, right?

00:29:18   So you could buy many of the games

00:29:20   made by Activision Blizzard,

00:29:22   you could buy them for PlayStation.

00:29:23   And occasionally you could buy them for Nintendo consoles

00:29:25   when they felt like throwing some shovelware

00:29:27   of last year's game onto a Nintendo platform,

00:29:29   or they're just gonna cash in on the Switch craze or whatever.

00:29:33   So if you're a gamer and you look at this,

00:29:35   you're like, oh no, I don't currently have an Xbox.

00:29:38   I have a PlayStation or a Switch or whatever.

00:29:41   Will I be able to play the next version of

00:29:43   insert my favorite game here now that Microsoft owns it.

00:29:47   Because historically, one thing that especially console makers

00:29:51   have done is when they buy a franchise or a developer

00:29:54   or a publisher or whatever, the next version of that game

00:29:57   will only be for their platform.

00:29:58   It will be exclusive to their platform.

00:30:00   That's the point of buying them.

00:30:02   I will buy Rare, and the next version of Perfect Dark

00:30:04   will not be on Nintendo platforms.

00:30:06   It will only be on consoles, and it will stink,

00:30:08   and everyone will be sad.

00:30:09   But anyway, Microsoft does own Rare, by the way.

00:30:13   That, you know, it was the old move.

00:30:15   It's like, I bought the franchise,

00:30:17   and now it's only gonna be in our platforms.

00:30:18   That's another reason for you to buy our thing.

00:30:20   So if you're a gamer and you don't have an Xbox platform,

00:30:21   it might be kind of sad.

00:30:23   But even if you're not a hardcore gamer,

00:30:25   you look at these numbers, you're like,

00:30:26   is it really healthy for a company

00:30:29   that itself has gaming platforms,

00:30:32   you know, PC gaming and the Xbox gaming platform,

00:30:35   to also own so many of the most popular game franchises?

00:30:43   You know, in the entertainment world, like, Disney owns everything and that's terrible

00:30:46   and it makes us sad and it really controls a lot of what gets made.

00:30:50   But Disney doesn't own, you know, 40% of the movie theaters.

00:30:54   Not that this is particularly great analogy here, but I'm trying.

00:30:57   They don't own the means to watch those things, right?

00:31:01   They own the IP to make the movies, but you don't have to buy a special Disney console

00:31:06   to watch the movies.

00:31:07   If they owned both, all the TVs and DVD players, or half the TVs and DVD players in movie theaters,

00:31:11   and also all of the franchises that constitute the movies, that would be kind of upsetting.

00:31:19   So I look at this and I know there's not anything, well, I don't think there's anything particularly

00:31:24   to stop it from like anti-trust or whatever because in the grand scheme of things mobile

00:31:27   is still bigger and you can't really slice and dice the market and say, "Well, it's not

00:31:31   a big deal because the gaming market is so big and we can't say it's just, I only care

00:31:35   about the console gaming market."

00:31:37   You have to really get narrow.

00:31:39   It's kind of like, as I say all the time, "Oh, you know, Honda.

00:31:41   has a monopoly on Honda cars. Well they do, but like that's too, you're slicing the

00:31:47   market too narrowly or Apple has a monopoly on Apple computers. Yeah but

00:31:50   that's stupid. So if you look at the entire world of gaming, Microsoft is

00:31:58   still small, but if you look at the world of console gaming, they look a little bit

00:32:03   bigger and what I mainly look at is of Microsoft's competitors,

00:32:07   particularly on the console platform. How do their competitors look compared to them in terms

00:32:12   of stable of IP that they own and nobody comes close. Nintendo arguably comes to the close just

00:32:18   because they made all their own IP like the stuff that makes Nintendo Nintendo, Nintendo made,

00:32:23   but it's not a lot of it. Like there's not as many franchises as Microsoft owns.

00:32:29   Sony has also bought tons of studios and built up its IP catalog through acquisitions, but it has

00:32:34   fallen way behind Microsoft in terms of gobbling up other things in the industry.

00:32:40   So I look at this and I get a little bit frightened, but the thing that makes me feel a little

00:32:44   bit better is the thing that's usually safe to bet on is when a big company buys a smaller

00:32:50   company they screw it up.

00:32:52   When a company buys some IP they mess it up in some way.

00:32:57   Basically the shelf life of IP, especially for video games, is not guaranteed.

00:33:02   So you buy Call of Duty, you're like, "Great, we'll be minting money from Call of Duty for

00:33:07   the next 20 years."

00:33:09   You won't even make bad games.

00:33:11   To give an example, I don't want to crap on this, but Bungie made Halo and then split

00:33:16   from Microsoft, but Microsoft kept Halo.

00:33:18   It's like, "Great, well, we have the IP.

00:33:19   We don't need those stinky Bungie people.

00:33:21   We've got the Halo IP.

00:33:23   We can continue to make Halo games without them."

00:33:25   And they did continue to make Halo games without them.

00:33:27   And not that they were bad, and in particular, Halo Infinite is much better than the recent

00:33:31   But they never recaptured the magic of the original Bungie made series of three or four Halo games, right?

00:33:38   IP is like that. You can't just say well because we own it. We're gonna do a great job

00:33:43   But it's kind of the inverse of the Marvel effect, right?

00:33:45   Marvel IP was owned and optioned by various people at various times for years and years and nobody can make anything out of it and

00:33:52   They sold it for a song to you know

00:33:55   a company that said well actually we are going to make good movies with Marvel material and we're gonna start with Iron Man and they'd

00:34:00   like who? It's like, just trust me, it'll be good. They took IP that no one could do

00:34:05   anything with and made something good out of it. It's equally likely, probably more

00:34:09   likely to take IP that people have made amazing things with and make some duds. Because it's

00:34:15   hard to like just owning the IP doesn't mean you can actually do the thing and particularly

00:34:18   in creative fields. Can you make a good game? Can you make a good movie? You know, if you

00:34:23   own the characters, fine, that's a start and you get people in seats. But over the course

00:34:27   of many many years if you don't make good games based on these franchises people will

00:34:32   leave you behind.

00:34:33   So you know that's why it's important they didn't just buy the IP they also bought the

00:34:36   studios that made them and the people that made them and so on and so forth but even

00:34:39   within that I feel like in the games world there are very few with the exception again

00:34:44   possibly of Nintendo stuff very few sort of franchises that have stood the test of time

00:34:51   and not sort of withered and been replaced by other franchises and Nintendo has done

00:34:56   it by basically, yeah, it's Mario and all the games, but like what does, you know, Mario

00:35:03   Galaxy have in common with the original Super Mario Brothers in terms of game design and

00:35:06   gameplay?

00:35:07   Very, very little.

00:35:08   You think, oh, he's a guy, he's a plumber, he jumps around, but Nintendo has had to reinvent

00:35:13   its franchises over and over and over again to remain relevant and that is extremely difficult

00:35:18   to do.

00:35:19   So, you know, can Call of Duty make the leap to VR in 2075?

00:35:22   I don't know.

00:35:25   I mean, I feel like it'll just be defunct

00:35:27   and be replaced by other franchises.

00:35:28   So I'm kind of rooting for this ploy not to work

00:35:33   as well as it has for maybe, arguably, Disney

00:35:36   and for Microsoft to not become

00:35:40   the overwhelmingly dominant force in console gaming

00:35:43   'cause I'm a console gamer

00:35:44   and I don't want Microsoft to have that much power.

00:35:48   - I know this is interesting.

00:35:49   I'm, I don't know, I'm actually,

00:35:52   because I'm not much of a gamer,

00:35:53   almost most interested to see if the cultural changes that Microsoft is hinting are coming

00:35:59   will actually do arrive and if they actually do make a difference. It's also interesting

00:36:04   for me because my little brother actually used to work there until this past summer,

00:36:07   I believe. And so it's kind of fascinating watching from the outside. And I spoke with

00:36:12   him very briefly earlier today, and I don't think he had really had time to talk to his

00:36:16   former coworkers at that point, but it's interesting to watch, to say the least.

00:36:21   Some people look at the story and think this shows the consequences for screwing up your

00:36:24   company by having a terrible culture that is abusive and disrespectful to your employees

00:36:29   and sexist and filled with harassment and all that stuff.

00:36:31   It's like, "Ha, see?

00:36:32   It tanked the value over their company and then someone swooped in and bought them out."

00:36:37   Everyone seems pretty sure that despite the announcements today or whatever, that once

00:36:42   the acquisition goes through, I mean, this would be true even if there wasn't a terrible

00:36:46   culture at Activision.

00:36:49   In general, when a company buys you because you, you know, your stock price was slammed

00:36:53   and you're doing really poorly and someone swoops in and buys you, they're not going

00:36:56   to keep the people who are running their company around.

00:36:59   They're going to replace them all with their people because you suck.

00:37:01   That's why we bought you.

00:37:02   That's why, you know, so that was going to happen no matter what.

00:37:05   But then on top of that, it's like, also, these are all terrible people.

00:37:08   And the reason their stock price tank was because these are all terrible people.

00:37:11   We found out about it.

00:37:13   I'm pretty sure they're going to clean house for multiple reasons here and hopefully get

00:37:16   rid of most of the bad people.

00:37:18   It's difficult to do that though, but everything I've heard, Microsoft's culture is way, way

00:37:23   better than Activision.

00:37:24   I mean, it's low bar, right?

00:37:25   Yeah, Activision's culture is terrible.

00:37:26   Microsoft's culture is better, so I have some faith that they're going to, like I said,

00:37:30   they're going to clean house for reasons nothing to do with culture, just because that's what

00:37:35   you do when you gobble someone up, you put your own people in charge, but hopefully they

00:37:38   will find and root out all of the very worst people in addition to putting all of their

00:37:45   good people in charge of things.

00:37:47   That should hopefully help because I feel like if they can make great games under these

00:37:52   terrible conditions, they can make even better games under conditions that are less terrible.

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00:39:53   (upbeat music)

00:39:56   - All right, so moving right along.

00:39:57   Hey, what's up with those green bubbles?

00:39:59   - I don't know,

00:40:00   do any of your conversations with the green bubbles

00:40:01   work anymore?

00:40:02   I mean, that was one of your long-standing complaints.

00:40:03   - Ugh, you know, it's funny you say that

00:40:06   'cause it just kind of got fixed magically

00:40:09   months and months and months ago.

00:40:10   And then just like in the last month, either Aaron or I,

00:40:14   I forget which one, lost just a message or two.

00:40:17   And I almost was in such a big rage

00:40:19   that I flipped my entire home upside down.

00:40:22   And the only reason I didn't was because I was saving

00:40:24   that moment for the LG 5K, which is still broken.

00:40:27   But nevertheless, now if you recall,

00:40:29   basically all of Aaron's family,

00:40:32   some of whom are still speaking to us at this point,

00:40:35   are on Android phones.

00:40:36   and it's been frustrating to say the least.

00:40:40   And I have been petitioning very strongly

00:40:45   for them to buy iPhones in part

00:40:48   because I am so annoyed by MMS group chats,

00:40:52   but also because they're constantly complaining.

00:40:54   It's the standard thing, right?

00:40:56   Where the people with the PCs and the Android phones

00:40:58   need all the tech support.

00:41:00   And I have told all of them in no uncertain terms,

00:41:03   Yeah, you know if you want to get help on that that's not me because I don't run PC's

00:41:09   I don't have Android phones. You're gonna have to ask somebody else and

00:41:11   And that's mostly worked. Okay, but anyway, I digress so yeah, so if you live in the blessed life where

00:41:19   You don't have to interact with Android people this isn't really a thing

00:41:24   But for those of us who lived the cursed life of a mixed a mixed

00:41:28   Mixed OS world it is annoying the green bubbles

00:41:33   But apparently if you believe the Wall Street Journal the green bubbles are an evil lock-in that Apple is sitting there. Mr

00:41:39   Burns style, you know tenting their fingers and cackling all the way to the bank

00:41:42   Well, I mean the there's the cultural aspect of like Oh green bubble means you have a less expensive phone

00:41:48   You're poor like whatever like the whole sort of class system of fancy iPhones versus non fancy green bubbles things

00:41:55   which you can imagine teens certainly going in for because that's what being a teenager is all about whether it's your Reebok shoes or your

00:42:01   T-shirt with the alligator on it. I'm using bad references from the 80s. But anyway, we all sound like mr

00:42:08   Burns trying to describe like what the young people are doing

00:42:10   I did is I'm so far from this

00:42:14   I'm

00:42:15   Describing it as as we would have described it in the 80s making fun of older people who didn't know what an eyes on shirt was

00:42:20   anyway

00:42:21   That is definitely a thing but that and that does affect the numbers you see of like how many teenagers have an iPhone and how

00:42:28   Many teachers want an iPhone but it's like well how many teenagers want the expensive fancy thing like it's good that Apple

00:42:33   Has that image because you want to be cool with the teens because they eventually become adults and spend money on things

00:42:38   But that's not really the issue issue is what Casey was talking about even though he was kind of

00:42:43   Jokingly talking about the class stuff as well is that if you're trying to have a conversation like a group conversation using your phone

00:42:51   Bugs make that difficult, where someone will reply and you won't see the reply, or half

00:42:56   the people will see the reply, or you'll say something and they won't see what you said.

00:42:59   Like the basic function of having a group conversation is impaired by poor interoperability

00:43:04   between iMessage, which is Apple's service for messaging, and SMS, which is the old cell

00:43:10   phone messaging service back from before smartphones even, right?

00:43:15   And that bad interoperability is what makes the experience bad.

00:43:20   And it leads people to do things like, oh, everything would work better if everyone used

00:43:24   the same messaging service.

00:43:26   And if it's the majority of people have iPhones and there's one or two people who don't have

00:43:30   iPhones, the solution is to badger those people.

00:43:32   They just get an iPhone so we can have a productive conversation where everybody sees everybody's

00:43:36   other messages and we don't miss things and things don't get screwed up.

00:43:41   And that is a real phenomenon.

00:43:42   And this is, you know, starting a broader conversation about RCS, which is like, put

00:43:46   a link to it in here somewhere, which is a rich communication service.

00:43:49   It's like the successor to SMS, as in a cell phone messaging service that has more feature

00:43:55   rich than SMS, that is more modern, that doesn't have its origins in sideband, analog cell

00:44:03   radio stuff that SMS came from.

00:44:07   But importantly, it's still like a cell phone type thing where your phone number is your

00:44:10   identity and all that other stuff.

00:44:12   And lots of other companies have been getting on Apple saying, "Hey Apple, you should support

00:44:15   RCS."

00:44:16   If you don't, you're showing that you're using iMessage

00:44:18   for lock-in for your messaging service or whatever.

00:44:21   And there's some truth to that,

00:44:24   that like, it would be good,

00:44:26   well, start with Casey's thing.

00:44:28   It would be good if SMS and iMessage

00:44:32   worked better together,

00:44:34   as in you could have productive conversations

00:44:36   and not mess your messages.

00:44:36   Like, I don't see who would disagree with that.

00:44:39   I don't think Apple is intentionally sabotaging it.

00:44:41   I think it's probably a hard problem.

00:44:43   But if you pretend to support it,

00:44:46   like Casey can in theory have a group conversation

00:44:49   with Android phones and iPhones, it should work, right?

00:44:53   Like it just should.

00:44:54   Otherwise, why have the feature?

00:44:55   You know, is it supposed to work

00:44:56   or is it just not supposed to work

00:44:57   and it's like a decoy or something, right?

00:45:00   And then RCS is similar.

00:45:02   If RCS ever becomes a thing

00:45:04   and it becomes a feature that carriers,

00:45:07   and again, I'm mostly just talking about the US here,

00:45:09   we'll get to all your other messaging things in a second,

00:45:11   and most carriers support RCS,

00:45:13   Apple should probably support it

00:45:15   so that you can have a conversation,

00:45:17   maybe even a group conversation with multiple people,

00:45:19   some of whom are using RCS

00:45:20   and some of whom are using iMessage,

00:45:22   just like you can have one today

00:45:23   with people who are using iMessage

00:45:24   and people using SMS.

00:45:26   Seems like a reasonable thing too.

00:45:27   And by the way, it should work, like all the time,

00:45:29   and people should get all the messages.

00:45:31   I don't think that's particularly controversial,

00:45:33   but I think what most people are mad about

00:45:35   is the idea of like message platform lock-in,

00:45:39   which is funny to me because iMessage has one of the,

00:45:43   one of the weakest message platform lock-ins,

00:45:46   and like, who is it?

00:45:47   Maria, Marco was saying,

00:45:50   he heard this on what, Instratecary,

00:45:52   or was it Dithering Podcast?

00:45:53   - Instratecary, yeah.

00:45:54   - Yeah, talking about this,

00:45:56   I think a lot of people have,

00:45:59   talking about the larger conversation,

00:46:00   have hit on the real issue here,

00:46:01   which is what messaging service is popular where you live,

00:46:06   and why?

00:46:08   In the US, iMessage is very popular.

00:46:11   If you see someone on a cell phone sending tech messages,

00:46:14   the chances that are, especially if they're using an iPhone,

00:46:16   the chance that it's iMessages are pretty darn high.

00:46:18   Elsewhere in the world, different services have one.

00:46:20   I don't remember the exact affiliations, but I'll try.

00:46:22   I think Japan is Line is the most popular service.

00:46:26   WeChat is China, right?

00:46:28   A lot of Europe is WhatsApp.

00:46:31   I'm sure there are different ones in other countries.

00:46:35   And it's like, how did that come to be?

00:46:36   What is it about these services that make them so dominant

00:46:41   in these different places and why is it different?

00:46:43   Why isn't iChat popular across the whole world?

00:46:45   Why isn't WhatsApp popular across the whole world?

00:46:47   Why are these regionalities, right?

00:46:49   And I think what it highlights is how little

00:46:54   the messaging service itself has to do

00:46:57   with what everybody uses.

00:47:00   It's just basically like who got critical mass first?

00:47:03   And a lot of things in the computing world are like that.

00:47:06   Like why is Facebook popular?

00:47:07   Why was MySpace popular?

00:47:09   Why was AOL popular?

00:47:10   There's lots of legit reasons like,

00:47:11   hey, well send out free CDs

00:47:12   and here's this business study showing it's great.

00:47:14   But the whole point is,

00:47:15   if you're in the right place in the right time

00:47:17   and make reasonable enough moves,

00:47:19   you can get critical mass for things like this

00:47:21   that have network effects where,

00:47:24   you know, Facebook is only useful

00:47:26   if your friends are also on Facebook.

00:47:27   A messaging app like AIM is only useful

00:47:29   if your friends are also on AIM.

00:47:31   And if you can get that critical mass

00:47:33   of everyone I know is on this thing,

00:47:36   It snowballs and it becomes very difficult

00:47:38   to go someplace else because you need a huge meteor

00:47:41   or boulder or explosion or something to kick people off

00:47:44   of one and put them onto another, right?

00:47:46   It's very hard to dislodge people if everybody is there.

00:47:49   So why is Lion in Japan?

00:47:52   Because they got critical mass first.

00:47:54   Why is WhatsApp in these European countries?

00:47:56   Because they got critical mass first.

00:47:57   And there are things like SMS used to cost money there

00:47:59   and less money here and so on and so forth.

00:48:01   The whole point is whatever got critical mass,

00:48:03   that inertia is very difficult to overcome.

00:48:06   and you need something big to knock it out.

00:48:08   But what it also means is there's nothing specifically

00:48:11   about line versus WhatsApp that makes one better

00:48:16   than the other in terms of a messaging service.

00:48:18   Maybe there's better cultural fits in terms of how

00:48:20   they market it themselves, and of course,

00:48:21   there are economic ones of what was free

00:48:23   versus what charged money and how much the carriers

00:48:25   charge for things and so on and so forth,

00:48:26   but not the specific service, right?

00:48:29   And related to that, just before we came on the air,

00:48:31   I read Jason Steller, "Arcole Macworld,"

00:48:34   that talks about one point that I was gonna make in the show

00:48:36   was that iMessage is crappy.

00:48:38   We all know this, right?

00:48:40   It's not a good messaging service.

00:48:42   We already pointed out how it doesn't interoperate with SMS.

00:48:45   It has very few features compared to other services.

00:48:48   Even just within iMessage,

00:48:49   there can be weird bugs and stuff,

00:48:51   and it doesn't change much.

00:48:52   Every year, iMessage doesn't get that much better.

00:48:55   I mean, they tried to do the iMessage App Store,

00:48:56   and that didn't really go anywhere,

00:48:58   but lots of things that are in iMessage

00:49:00   have been the same as they have been for ages.

00:49:01   The search is still bad.

00:49:03   the way they do replies is still weird.

00:49:06   Jason pointed out the tap back feature

00:49:08   where you can put different reactions.

00:49:09   It's been the same like five or six reactions

00:49:11   for the entire life of that feature.

00:49:13   It's not a product that they're iterating on

00:49:15   and making better and better all the time.

00:49:17   So if you could say, okay, everybody's kicked off

00:49:20   all their messaging services,

00:49:21   none of your friends or any messaging service.

00:49:23   Let's start from a level playing field

00:49:26   and let's all decide what messaging service we should get on

00:49:28   and by the way, we erased your memory

00:49:29   so you don't remember iMessage

00:49:30   so you can't do it out of habit

00:49:31   and you looked at the messaging services

00:49:32   based on who has the nicest app,

00:49:34   who has the most features, like all that other stuff,

00:49:37   and price is most taken about it

00:49:38   because these are all these days internet powered things.

00:49:41   I don't think iMessage would do as well as it does.

00:49:44   It was a default messaging app on iPhones

00:49:45   and iPhone became popular and that's why iMessage is popular

00:49:47   but not because it's a good message service.

00:49:49   It's terrible, right?

00:49:51   And so this whole conversation about like,

00:49:54   oh, iMessage is giving you lock in,

00:49:56   everything with network effects gives you lock in

00:49:58   and it always feels terrible.

00:50:00   It's like why is everybody doing X

00:50:02   when Y is better than X.

00:50:03   It's like, well, it's too late.

00:50:04   Everybody's doing X and it's a social thing.

00:50:05   And so unless you have some way to get everybody off of X

00:50:09   and onto Y, like say X goes out of business

00:50:12   or X is overwhelmed with spam or it's very different.

00:50:17   I'm trying to think of like it's like conversation

00:50:20   I was having with Merlyn, what would get people off Facebook?

00:50:21   What would get people off of their messages

00:50:24   and servers of choice?

00:50:25   If everyone you know is on WhatsApp,

00:50:27   what gets you off of WhatsApp?

00:50:28   What gets you and everyone you know off of WhatsApp?

00:50:31   And it's very difficult.

00:50:33   We haven't been able to get everybody off of Facebook.

00:50:35   And I don't think you're going to get everybody who's

00:50:36   on iMessage off of iMessage.

00:50:37   That's why I feel it's imperative

00:50:39   that if you're going to do cross-protocol support,

00:50:41   that you make it actually work.

00:50:43   And if you're not going to do cross-protocol support,

00:50:45   then just don't do it at all.

00:50:46   And let your message--

00:50:48   make your own little bubbles in the world.

00:50:52   So all this is to say is that I guess Apple should probably

00:50:55   implement RCS.

00:50:56   But it's not going to really help anything.

00:50:58   Oh, and by the way, RCS is-- because it's a carrier thing--

00:51:00   It's kind of swimming against the tide

00:51:02   where modern messaging servers say,

00:51:04   we'll use the internet communicator,

00:51:06   which is a great idea because the internet is cool.

00:51:09   But having your identity be your phone number,

00:51:11   that's really crappy.

00:51:13   I mean, Apple, and speaking of half our things,

00:51:15   Apple did, can I send SMSs for my Mac?

00:51:19   Yeah, kind of through your phone

00:51:22   because you need a phone number.

00:51:23   Well, can I have a conversation

00:51:24   with blue and green bubbles on my Mac?

00:51:26   Sort of, with a little help from your phone

00:51:29   or a relay that converts the, it's like,

00:51:32   like if you use the internet,

00:51:34   anything connected to the internet can do it.

00:51:36   If you use your phone number,

00:51:37   there has to be a cell phone

00:51:38   or a phone number somewhere involved,

00:51:40   and in that respect,

00:51:41   RCS is sort of a retrograde type of service

00:51:45   where it's not forward-looking.

00:51:46   Like forward-looking services are all internet-based.

00:51:48   And so, although we'll probably have to support RCS

00:51:51   because it's better than SMS

00:51:52   and it's not as technically backwards,

00:51:54   if you're looking for a new service

00:51:55   for the entire world to communicate with each other on,

00:51:58   RCS is not it.

00:51:59   It's gotta be something on the internet.

00:52:01   - I don't know, I don't see Apple

00:52:04   being willing to implement RCS

00:52:06   unless they can explain away the lack of end-to-end encryption

00:52:11   because my limited understanding of RCS,

00:52:13   I might have this wrong, is I think Google layered on

00:52:16   like a superset or something of RCS or their own custom,

00:52:20   like Apple does with Bluetooth

00:52:22   and has their own custom stuff riding on top

00:52:23   of traditional Bluetooth.

00:52:25   Well, I guess Google, I think,

00:52:26   had put their own custom stuff on top of RCS

00:52:28   so they could get end-to-end encrypted messages.

00:52:30   And I don't see Apple being able to,

00:52:35   or perhaps willing to implement RCS

00:52:37   unless they have a good privacy story.

00:52:40   Because otherwise it's like,

00:52:41   well, why are you banging this privacy drum over there?

00:52:44   But then you totally throw it out the window over here.

00:52:47   And with SMS and MMS, I mean, it's like table stakes,

00:52:50   at least here in America,

00:52:51   that you have to support those things.

00:52:54   Otherwise you basically don't have

00:52:55   a functioning cellular phone.

00:52:57   but I know it's different the rest of the world,

00:52:59   but for here you have to have it.

00:53:00   But to add something that is,

00:53:03   I was gonna say inherently dangerous,

00:53:05   but that's a bit overblown,

00:53:07   that is certainly less secure than Apple would like,

00:53:10   it seems like it would be disingenuous for them to do that.

00:53:14   - Well, SMS already doesn't have any security,

00:53:16   so this would be just a replacement for SMS.

00:53:17   Like, I don't think Apple is raring to go on this.

00:53:19   I think if other people implement RCS

00:53:21   and it becomes an issue where it's like,

00:53:23   hey, everyone else is doing it at Apple,

00:53:24   then Apple should do it too.

00:53:25   but I don't think Apple has to lead here or anything.

00:53:28   You mentioned SMS, and the reason you have to have it

00:53:29   to have a functioning cell phone is just to give one example

00:53:32   is the current use of SMS for two-factor,

00:53:34   which itself has its own problems,

00:53:36   but it is still a common practice,

00:53:38   and the whole point of that being a second factor

00:53:39   is that it's a phone number, right?

00:53:42   And we sent through SMS because that is sort of the,

00:53:45   the base level lowest common denominator thing

00:53:48   that cell phones can understand.

00:53:50   Could people send two-factors using RCS?

00:53:54   They could, but you have to get to a point

00:53:56   where there is a reasonable chance

00:53:59   that that's going to work.

00:54:01   I don't think there are probably any cell phones

00:54:05   that people are still using that can't do SMS,

00:54:07   but RCS is nowhere, right?

00:54:10   - I don't think that's true.

00:54:11   I think it's implemented in lots of places, isn't it?

00:54:14   Maybe I have this all wrong,

00:54:15   but I could swear that it's been implemented

00:54:18   certainly on a lot of carriers.

00:54:20   And I thought like Android has had it for many more years

00:54:23   than I had thought.

00:54:24   I thought it was just coming out now,

00:54:25   and I think it's been there for like four or five years.

00:54:26   - The standard is certainly very old,

00:54:28   but I think everybody still sends two-factor stuff

00:54:30   using plain old SMS and not RCS,

00:54:32   just because it's guaranteed to be there.

00:54:34   At the minimum, the billions of iPhones in the world

00:54:37   can't get it, and so if you send it via RCS

00:54:40   and someone has an iPhone,

00:54:41   they can't log into your two-factor thing.

00:54:42   That seems like a big deal.

00:54:44   That's why they're going to, you know.

00:54:46   So anyway, if RCS replaces it

00:54:48   just because SMS is an ancient old standard

00:54:49   and eventually SMS is gonna go away

00:54:51   and RCS is gonna replace it, then yeah,

00:54:52   Apple has to do it because it's the lowest common denominator.

00:54:55   Same reason Apple, well, not the same reason Apple

00:54:57   has to do SMS, 'cause iMessages know it exists.

00:54:58   But the same reason Apple continues to support SMS,

00:55:01   not because Apple loves SMS, it's because

00:55:03   if they took it away, their phone becomes

00:55:04   significantly less functional for the users.

00:55:06   If RCS ever gets to that point,

00:55:08   then Apple will have to do it.

00:55:10   And that's, I feel like, that's what I'm saying.

00:55:11   Apple should do it probably before it becomes a problem,

00:55:15   but only just before it becomes a problem for them.

00:55:18   I'm not sure it's a problem right now.

00:55:20   I've certainly never encountered something in my life where my phone's lack of RCS support

00:55:26   has been a problem, but they should eventually implement it if, like, don't wait for it to

00:55:32   be a problem and then band-aid it, anticipate it by a little bit and then implement it.

00:55:35   And who knows, I hold out hope that RCS being a more modern protocol, and implementing it

00:55:42   in a more modern time, maybe with a more modern language even, there is a higher chance that

00:55:46   that the interoperability between iMessage and iMessage

00:55:49   will work better than the interoperability

00:55:51   between SMS and iMessage.

00:55:53   And hey, that's great for Apple.

00:55:54   They just never have to fix those bugs.

00:55:56   They can just let it sail off into the sunset

00:55:58   and replace it with the new, better,

00:56:01   actually functional, RCS and iMessage interoperability.

00:56:04   - If I may, again, take us on a small tangent,

00:56:07   something that really drives me nuts about my group chats

00:56:10   with one or more Android people is,

00:56:13   and I'm sure many Americans have experienced this,

00:56:16   If I'm in a group chat, like for example, Aaron and me,

00:56:21   and my brother-in-law who's an Android user,

00:56:23   and my sister-in-law who also has an iPhone,

00:56:24   because of my brother-in-law, whom I love dearly,

00:56:27   the entire damn chat is all green bubbles

00:56:29   because that one Android phone, it makes sense.

00:56:32   And if I were to slip up,

00:56:35   or let's say if Aaron were to slip up

00:56:37   and do a tap back on one of these messages,

00:56:41   which I would argue maybe shouldn't even be allowed

00:56:43   in the first place, but let's leave that aside for a second.

00:56:46   What I will receive is ErinLis liked,

00:56:49   and then like a quotation of the message

00:56:51   that she gave a thumbs up to, which, okay, fine.

00:56:54   I understand that when Erin's phone is trying to verbalize,

00:56:59   for lack of a better word,

00:57:00   or transmit her action to an Android phone,

00:57:03   the best it can do is say, "ErinLis liked,"

00:57:05   and then repeat the message.

00:57:06   Sure, totally makes sense.

00:57:08   But on my phone, I have an iPhone.

00:57:13   Why is Apple not parsing Aaron Liss liked

00:57:16   and then the exact message that she liked?

00:57:19   Why is it not, why is Messages not parsing this

00:57:22   and throwing a thumbs up on the message that she liked?

00:57:25   Do you understand what I'm saying?

00:57:26   - Yeah, well, I mean, you don't want it to be parsing.

00:57:28   What you want is sort of a dual rights thing

00:57:31   where your phone sends the iMessage

00:57:33   to the iMessage people and the SMS to the SMS people,

00:57:35   so you're doing everything sort of like the native way.

00:57:38   You wouldn't want it to be--

00:57:39   - Oh, I'm sure there would be no problems there, John,

00:57:41   with no one source of truth.

00:57:43   But what I'm saying is like the other way you're describing

00:57:46   is if an SMS comes in and the string is exactly one

00:57:49   of these five strings interpreted as a tap back

00:57:51   on the previous thing.

00:57:52   And that is not a great way to go about things.

00:57:56   'Cause especially with localization and other stuff,

00:57:59   like it's weird, you know, like you don't want to sort of

00:58:01   like send text, interpret text that goes through SMS,

00:58:06   certain texts being special triggering commands to run.

00:58:11   Like, probably how you want to,

00:58:13   even if it's as simple as like,

00:58:14   well, when I see that, I'll interpret it as a thumb

00:58:15   and display it that way.

00:58:16   Not that SMS and iMessage aren't cracked

00:58:19   10 different ways all the time anyway,

00:58:20   but I probably wouldn't choose to do that.

00:58:22   But the way they do it, you can see it making sense.

00:58:24   It's like, and look, how will we interoperate?

00:58:26   Oh, it's easy, we'll just convert everything into text.

00:58:29   And they just didn't go the extra mile to say,

00:58:30   but you know, can we make it better for the iMessage users?

00:58:34   And I guess the conspiracy theory is like,

00:58:36   see, they made it look annoying

00:58:37   so the green bubble people would be shunned

00:58:39   into getting an iPhone, but.

00:58:40   So that's the thing, right, is that I totally understand

00:58:44   that Erin's phone, when she likes the message, sounds good.

00:58:48   I totally understand that her phone emits

00:58:50   Erin-less liked, sounds good.

00:58:53   But where I start to be the conspiracy theorist

00:58:56   with the red yarn all over the bulletin board

00:58:58   is when my phone doesn't take that

00:59:02   and turn it into a thumbs up.

00:59:04   And I understand what you guys are saying,

00:59:05   but I feel like there's gotta be a way

00:59:08   to make this somewhat reliable.

00:59:09   Or you know what, even if somebody literally typed

00:59:11   the message, you know, Casey List likes such and such,

00:59:16   and like if there was an errant thumb,

00:59:17   like is that really the end of the earth?

00:59:19   - Oh, if there was an errant thumb attributed to you,

00:59:21   because the client would then interpret it

00:59:24   as you liking the thing, you'd need a little--

00:59:26   - Well, sure, but perhaps it would only do that

00:59:28   if I'm, like if I typed out Casey List liked sounds good.

00:59:31   - I know, I mean, anyway.

00:59:33   So there's two angles, one, the product design one

00:59:36   is doing it as text for everybody

00:59:38   is a uniform experience, adhering to a principle

00:59:42   that you may have for the UI that everyone

00:59:43   involved in group conversations sees the same thing.

00:59:46   And so you may not like that.

00:59:47   And it's like, well, why do we have to get dumbed down?

00:59:49   And it gets back to that whole argument.

00:59:50   But at least it's a consistent experience, in theory.

00:59:52   I mean, minus the bugs that we're talking about,

00:59:55   the whole point is we don't get a consistent experience.

00:59:57   But you can see the argument for the simplicity of just saying,

01:00:00   look, everybody in the group chat sees the same thing.

01:00:02   We're not giving special treatment to the Apple ones

01:00:04   where they know how to do the tap backs and the other ones don't,

01:00:07   just so we're all looking at the same stuff.

01:00:09   - Yeah, but I could swear that I read recently,

01:00:11   and I'm not gonna be able to dig up an article

01:00:13   to justify or verify this,

01:00:14   but I swear that Google is doing what I describe.

01:00:17   - Oh yeah, no, I'm saying like it could,

01:00:19   from a product design perspective,

01:00:21   you could make the decision

01:00:22   that everyone should see the same thing,

01:00:23   even if only just so you know what they're seeing, right?

01:00:27   So, because otherwise, how do you know

01:00:30   what other people are seeing on their screen?

01:00:31   If it looks good to you,

01:00:32   maybe you don't realize that it looks weird to them,

01:00:34   whereas just doing this text everywhere

01:00:36   shows it looks good to everybody.

01:00:37   So there is an argument to be made

01:00:38   for this sort of consistency,

01:00:40   even though it's lesser quality.

01:00:41   But the other thing is, and it's not a conspiracy theory,

01:00:43   it's just like, if Apple's gonna prioritize features,

01:00:46   they're not gonna prioritize

01:00:48   making really, really good integration with SMS,

01:00:50   just because they would prefer everyone to use iMessage.

01:00:53   So why are we, you know, it's not like,

01:00:56   you know, their mustache twisting,

01:00:58   ha, it's part of our dastardly plan,

01:01:00   it's just plain old prioritization.

01:01:02   like what do we care more about, like new feature X

01:01:05   or making SMS and iMessage work together better.

01:01:08   And clearly they don't care that much about making SMS,

01:01:11   iMessage work together, even just basic functionality

01:01:15   in terms of the messages go through and people see them,

01:01:17   like that has been a struggle.

01:01:19   This is way down on the list, like it's just prioritization,

01:01:23   sort of banality of, it's not even a banality of evil,

01:01:25   it's not actually evil, it's just like,

01:01:27   look we have to have priorities and this is a pretty low one

01:01:29   because Apple's solution would be just use iMessage, it comes with your phone.

01:01:33   "Oh, but my friends don't have iMessage."

01:01:34   "Oh, they should buy iPhones."

01:01:36   But if they don't, we try to interoperate too and we do the best we can, but it's not

01:01:41   going to be a high priority.

01:01:44   Apple is not going to win people over by making that integration better.

01:01:50   And that sounds evil to people.

01:01:51   It's like, "See, they're intentionally making it bad."

01:01:53   But I feel like there is a nuanced distinction between choosing your priorities based on

01:01:57   and what's important to the company,

01:01:59   versus an evil plan to punish bad people with green bubbles.

01:02:03   And even though they seem like they're the same thing,

01:02:05   I feel like it's important to understand

01:02:09   the distinction there, right?

01:02:10   Even if there are like two or three people

01:02:12   who are twisting their mustaches

01:02:13   or rubbing their hands together saying,

01:02:15   "Ha ha, this will really teach those Android users."

01:02:18   I don't think it's like corporate policy to do that.

01:02:21   If you look at the leaked emails and everything,

01:02:23   I think it was,

01:02:24   Eddy Cue was pushing for iMessage to be on all platforms,

01:02:26   and other people said, "Why would we do that?

01:02:28   "It's great platform lock-in.

01:02:29   "People use iPhones because they all have iMessage,

01:02:32   "and if we let iMessage be everywhere,

01:02:34   "that removes the differentiator."

01:02:36   And people think that's evil.

01:02:37   That's what everybody does in business.

01:02:39   It's like, "Why would we put Halo on the PlayStation?

01:02:41   "People buy an Xbox because it has Halo.

01:02:43   "Why would we put it everywhere?"

01:02:44   It's like, "See, you're trying to lock people

01:02:46   "into the Xbox."

01:02:46   Like, "Yeah, yeah, we're trying to make the Xbox

01:02:50   "be the best selling cup."

01:02:51   That's business, and it's not a life or death thing,

01:02:54   and it's not like, I don't think that's particularly evil.

01:02:57   And even then, the argument was had

01:02:58   with some high, big executives like EdiQ arguing,

01:03:01   it's like, that's all well and good,

01:03:03   but we should make iMessage be everywhere, right?

01:03:05   Because it would make us more successful,

01:03:07   like bringing the iPod to Windows, right?

01:03:09   That's always the push and pull,

01:03:10   especially in computer markets or whatever,

01:03:12   where it's like, should we try to be

01:03:15   the standard for everything,

01:03:16   or should we try to be a really cool feature

01:03:19   that makes you buy our product instead of theirs?

01:03:21   And it's not always easy to know

01:03:22   when you should cross over that bridge.

01:03:24   Like in hindsight, it's easy, like,

01:03:25   see how, can you believe they didn't wanna put the iPod

01:03:27   on Windows, how dumb would have that been?

01:03:28   Yeah, it's easy in hindsight,

01:03:30   but other decisions have gone the other way

01:03:32   and have also worked out.

01:03:33   So, you know, I'm not sure where iMessage is at this point,

01:03:38   as I think they were saying on dithering.

01:03:40   It may be too late to put iMessage everywhere.

01:03:43   Speaking of that, it's like, oh,

01:03:43   Apple can solve this problem

01:03:44   by just putting iMessage on every single platform.

01:03:46   Who the hell would want iMessage?

01:03:48   If you're using something that has better features,

01:03:50   which is basically anything that's in iMessage,

01:03:52   like Line, WhatsApp, probably WeChat.

01:03:54   All those things are better chat clients than iMessage.

01:03:58   They have more features, they're more useful,

01:04:00   they're, you know, and maybe some of them are also crappy

01:04:02   in ways that Apple wouldn't like in terms of being festooned

01:04:04   with ads or spam or whatever, but in terms of feature set,

01:04:08   it's not even close.

01:04:09   What I think about is Slack.

01:04:11   Slack is so much better at sending textual messages

01:04:13   back and forth to people and having conversations

01:04:16   and threads and reactions and inline previews

01:04:18   and all the things you do, and that's a frickin' web view.

01:04:21   And it's so much better than iMessage.

01:04:23   It's not even funny.

01:04:24   I would use Slack as my instant messaging app if that was an option, but of course,

01:04:29   to do that I would have to send the giant asteroid that would knock everybody I know

01:04:34   off of iMessage and onto some hypothetical iMessage replacement that has the same features

01:04:38   as Slack, right?

01:04:40   Oh, and I guess the other factor that we need to throw in here is who owns the thing?

01:04:46   A private company owning something like Facebook owning WhatsApp may be a factor in some people's

01:04:52   decisions and it certainly is in mine.

01:04:54   Not enough to change who goes where because network effects don't care about that.

01:04:59   But I would prefer not to switch from iMessage to a system owned by a company that I trust

01:05:04   less than Apple.

01:05:06   That doesn't mean that's what's keeping people on iMessage at all, but me personally, I don't

01:05:10   like the idea of switching to a better, more full-featured chat client that happens to

01:05:15   be owned by Facebook.

01:05:16   So I really hope that doesn't happen.

01:05:18   - I almost wonder how much any of this,

01:05:20   like Pete, giving people new options at this point,

01:05:22   I wonder how much that even matters,

01:05:24   because it seems like most people don't,

01:05:29   you were saying, John,

01:05:30   like how it would be pretty much impossible

01:05:32   to try to move everyone off of what they're using now.

01:05:36   And I think the reason why is that most people, I think,

01:05:38   have worked out their messaging platform

01:05:40   around the time that they got their first smartphone.

01:05:44   And all their friends got smartphones,

01:05:46   and they all message each other on something.

01:05:48   And I think most of the world that can have a phone at all

01:05:53   now has a smartphone and has a messaging platform.

01:05:59   And I think it's one of the things,

01:06:01   as you were saying three hours ago,

01:06:03   it's not that these platforms are competing

01:06:06   on features or anything.

01:06:07   They're mostly just like,

01:06:08   why do people use the ones they use?

01:06:09   Well, because their friends used it,

01:06:10   and that's how they talk to their friends.

01:06:12   And then it's just kind of,

01:06:14   certain groups fall into place with certain platforms,

01:06:17   and I don't think we're ever gonna change that.

01:06:20   I don't think, first of all, I'm surprised RCS

01:06:22   is even still being talked about,

01:06:24   because it had so many shortcomings

01:06:26   when it was first floated, however many years ago that was,

01:06:29   but no one's looking for text messaging to get better

01:06:34   without it being a totally different thing.

01:06:37   No one's looking for RCS.

01:06:39   That solves no problems people actually have.

01:06:43   And iMessage is great for the people who use it.

01:06:46   The people who currently don't use iMessage

01:06:48   will probably never use iMessage.

01:06:51   And I think you could say that

01:06:52   about almost all these platforms.

01:06:53   Whatever you use, your messaging needs,

01:06:56   if you have a smartphone,

01:06:57   your messaging needs are probably pretty well settled.

01:07:00   And you're probably not looking to change.

01:07:03   And so I almost wonder how much any of this discussion,

01:07:06   even if Apple launched iMessage on Android tomorrow,

01:07:10   would people actually even install it?

01:07:12   Would people use it?

01:07:13   Probably not.

01:07:14   People probably keep doing what they're doing already.

01:07:16   - Well, it has a chance in the US

01:07:17   just because so many people in the US still use SMS, right?

01:07:21   And SMS is so dire and so terrible and so old

01:07:25   that I think you could get some people,

01:07:27   if they put out iMessage for Android,

01:07:29   I think you could get a lot of Android people

01:07:30   off of SMS and onto iMessage.

01:07:34   Because in this country, we don't have a huge majority

01:07:36   of people on WhatsApp or WeChat or Line

01:07:38   or anything like that.

01:07:41   The other thing, I mean there's two other things

01:07:42   that can move people, like obviously the big asteroid

01:07:44   coming, you know, one version of the big asteroid is,

01:07:48   hey the company that runs Line,

01:07:49   yeah they went out of business.

01:07:51   Guess what, that'll get everybody offline,

01:07:53   that's the problem with these, like oh I'm on a messaging

01:07:55   platform, I'm never gonna move, you'll move if the company

01:07:57   goes out of business and doesn't get bought,

01:07:59   or you'll move if that company turns into like a,

01:08:02   you know, a blockchain thing and like starts spamming you

01:08:04   with NFT crap and just becomes a giant scam thing, right?

01:08:08   Or it becomes festoon with ads or someone buys it

01:08:11   and drives it into the ground.

01:08:12   That's the difficulty of having network effect

01:08:15   based platforms owned by individual companies

01:08:17   'cause individual companies can screw up

01:08:19   and they can go out of business

01:08:20   or be bought by somebody worse and do terrible things

01:08:22   and just mess up.

01:08:23   Arguably that's kind of what happened

01:08:25   to Myspace versus Facebook, right?

01:08:27   We keep hoping that Facebook's gonna screw up

01:08:29   and wither away and die but they keep staying alive

01:08:31   and getting more money so it's difficult to kill them.

01:08:33   But that's one way you can get rid of things.

01:08:36   And the second way is people, like I said,

01:08:38   they're just never gonna change their platforms.

01:08:40   But they die and if young people are using a different platform Wow

01:08:43   right if young if young people are using a different platform like oh young people all message each other on snapchat and

01:08:49   snapchat becomes the dominant platform of the next 50 years because those young people started using snapchat when they were 9 and just

01:08:55   Never stopped right because that's what them and all their friends were on that type of the that's not an asteroid

01:09:01   It's more of a slow rollover that can also happen

01:09:03   We're just a generational thing

01:09:05   One thing is seen as cooler than something else.

01:09:07   Old people use X, young people use Y,

01:09:09   and the old people never change,

01:09:10   and the young people never change,

01:09:11   and you wake up 50 years later,

01:09:12   and all the old people are dead,

01:09:13   and everybody's using Snapchat for messaging.

01:09:16   But that presupposes that Snapchat's gonna stay in business

01:09:19   and not screw up their application and everything, right?

01:09:22   This is the danger of having something as important

01:09:25   as ubiquitous, instant message type text messaging

01:09:30   being owned by individual private companies.

01:09:33   If there was an individual private company

01:09:35   than on email, we would be on email seven by now, like whatever the seventh iteration

01:09:39   of email is.

01:09:40   Not that email is great, you know, no encryption, spam is a problem, blah blah blah, because

01:09:43   it wasn't owned by any single company, it's very difficult to kill.

01:09:49   Companies come and go, companies screw up, they fill their products with ads and spam

01:09:56   and malware and do all sorts of terrible things, but email survives because no matter what

01:10:01   any individual company does, email as a standard has network effect, is one of the original

01:10:05   network effects of the internet, right?

01:10:08   Everybody's got it.

01:10:10   It's difficult for any single company to replace it, lots of people tried really really hard

01:10:13   and they didn't pull it off.

01:10:15   And no matter how many companies go out of business, email stays.

01:10:19   That's not true of instant messaging.

01:10:20   So we're kind of in the early stages of that.

01:10:23   In 50 years, of all the companies I described, how many will still be in business?

01:10:27   How many will have been bought by other companies?

01:10:29   like whatsapp, Facebook buys line and says line is eventually gone and now it's folded

01:10:34   into whatsapp and by the way whatsapp is gone and it's folded into Facebook messenger.

01:10:39   those are things that can happen.

01:10:40   it's the danger of having private companies that may not live that long and may not do

01:10:47   what you want controlling such an important thing.

01:10:49   so that's the one thing that RCS has going for it is that at least it's like a cross

01:10:53   company standard.

01:10:54   I mean granted they're cell phone carriers, they're not the best companies and granted

01:10:57   it's a terrible standard and it's crappy and old and doesn't have the features we want and so on and so forth, but

01:11:02   that's one of the advantages that SMS has is

01:11:04   There's no company that can go out of business that makes SMS not work, right? It's kind of baked in it's old

01:11:10   It's ancient

01:11:11   It's crappy, but it's not owned by any one single company and RCS has that advantage and the you know

01:11:17   They've got the advantage for me personally not for regular people because they don't care but for me personally

01:11:20   I like the fact that Apple runs iMessage because I trust Apple more than say Facebook or whoever owns WeChat

01:11:27   Any company based in China, I probably don't want them to run the messaging service that the whole world uses, right?

01:11:32   So I think this is still a problem area

01:11:36   And it is difficult to move people en masse from one thing to the other but change can happen

01:11:41   Through people dying and change can happen through companies dying and I guess that's what we have to root for

01:11:45   Not people dying. That's gonna happen whether we root for it or not. I guess. Oh my gosh when they're really old long natural

01:11:51   We call it not an unnatural death but natural one. Oh dear God when you're old and no one cares about you anymore

01:11:58   Usually I'm the one who puts not only my foot but my ankle and my thigh in my mouth

01:12:02   But today that role is being played by John, Syracuse. Have you ever thought about the phrase that died of natural causes?

01:12:07   It's like a natural childbirth. It's same thing. No, it's not the same thing at all. I

01:12:12   Mean, it's it's kind of the same thing. I mean whatever I don't feel like arguing about that either

01:12:17   I see this is my foot in my mouth. It's happening again

01:12:20   Anyway, I don't know the other thing just to get ahead of the feedback emails that have already come in. I'm quite sure

01:12:25   Every time we talk about messaging platforms particularly Americans all the like smug Europeans and people from you know

01:12:33   Like the Asian countries are always like well, just just tell everyone to change

01:12:38   Yeah. Yes. Okay. Sure. I'm going to tell the 700 contacts in my phone book

01:12:43   You know what the king has decided that I am going to use WeChat now

01:12:47   So if you would like to talk to me come talk to me on wechat. Yeah, that's totally gonna work related

01:12:53   When's the last time you loaded the glass app on your iPhone? I rest my case

01:12:56   Does anyone actually say that just thought everyone to change? I haven't said that. Yes, it happened in the chat earlier today

01:13:01   Yeah, it's kind of like people saying we can stop traffic jams. But everyone just to go at once right?

01:13:06   Seriously, it's so preposterous like yes, maybe like my core 20 or 30 people

01:13:14   maybe I could get half of them to change

01:13:16   to my preferred messaging service,

01:13:18   but the likelihood of that is almost zero.

01:13:19   - Even if you bought them all brand new iPhones,

01:13:22   you probably still couldn't get 100% conversion.

01:13:24   - Right, exactly. - If you bought them

01:13:25   and paid for their cell phone plan for their life,

01:13:27   you probably still couldn't get 100% conversion.

01:13:29   - Yep.

01:13:30   - 'Cause people just like what they're used to, right?

01:13:31   And they don't want change.

01:13:33   Like, why am I changing?

01:13:34   Why don't you change free once you get an Android phone?

01:13:36   How about that?

01:13:37   (upbeat music)

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01:15:38   - All right, let's do some Ask ATP.

01:15:43   And I have been excited to hear John talk about this.

01:15:45   And that's no sarcasm, I really mean it.

01:15:47   Daniel Berkfuss writes, "Mac OS is over two decades old now,

01:15:51   "but its foundation is still roughly the same,

01:15:53   "and also the foundation of Apple's entire OS suite.

01:15:56   "Would you say that this will continue to be true

01:15:58   "for the next two decades?

01:15:59   "Or should we assume that a team with an Apple

01:16:01   is cranking away on exploring a completely new OS approach, designed from the ground

01:16:05   up to even better suit Apple's multifaceted future. Should we expect another large transition

01:16:10   within the next 20 years because of this, maybe impacting Apple's full range of products?

01:16:15   And if so, what is your advice for Apple as well as your hopes and dreams for this new

01:16:19   approach? And to get ahead of you, Jon, the very first thing I thought of when I read

01:16:23   this Ask ATP, which was very good, was avoiding Copeland 2010, which I will put in the show

01:16:29   You should probably put the revisited article because it explains it and has all the links

01:16:33   back because otherwise you have to link to all three of them and it's confusing so maybe

01:16:36   just do the revisited article.

01:16:38   Sorry dad.

01:16:39   Yeah we've done these links before.

01:16:42   So for making a completely new OS the rumors are that's one of the things that Apple was

01:16:47   doing for the car project because as you can imagine an operating system suitable for helping

01:16:51   a car to drive has different requirements than one that runs your cell phone or whatever

01:16:58   And, you know, it's a clean sheet type thing.

01:17:00   Apple doesn't have an existing car.

01:17:01   They don't have an existing car software base.

01:17:03   So they could start from scratch and use more modern technology

01:17:06   better suited to being a car OS.

01:17:10   But who knows where any of that is going.

01:17:12   That aside, the good thing about what Apple did with Mac OS X

01:17:17   is they sort of built their operating system, the core OS

01:17:22   thing, with a POSIX Unix-style layer to it.

01:17:27   And that really helps for the future.

01:17:30   If there's some deficit of the microkernel,

01:17:34   the mock microkernel and the BSD system that's fused to it

01:17:37   and all sort of low-level parts of Apple's operating system,

01:17:40   if it turns out that there's some limiting factor

01:17:42   for some future application,

01:17:44   whether it be VR or self-driving cars, something like that,

01:17:48   Apple can really replumb the guts in very interesting ways

01:17:53   while still maintaining that sort of POSIX-compliant layer

01:17:56   on top of it because that's something that the software industry has done many times over,

01:18:00   putting POSIX layers on operating systems that are not themselves like natively Unix POSIX systems.

01:18:05   Windows NT did it back in the day. Microsoft does it with Windows. It is a common thing.

01:18:10   Arguably Apple's kind of doing it with the BSD kernel fused to mock and everything. And yes,

01:18:16   there are all sorts of stuff in Mac OS X that use the mock ports and all sorts of mock IPC features

01:18:20   that are specific to Mach, but you can also,

01:18:23   I'm saying M-A-C-H, you can also Mach those, M-O-C-K.

01:18:27   You can Mach versions of Mach.

01:18:29   What I'm saying is that it's a layer cake.

01:18:31   And so-- - Oh my gosh.

01:18:32   - You have the, because Apple got rid of the main deficits,

01:18:36   which was, hey, no memory protection,

01:18:38   no preemptive multitasking, all the Copeland 2010 stuff,

01:18:41   right, because they address those

01:18:45   and have a solid foundation, they can rip out the guts

01:18:48   and put better, more interesting guts in there

01:18:51   while still maintaining lots of compatibility

01:18:53   with the higher layers because that layer,

01:18:56   that sort of POSIX Unix layer,

01:18:58   is very common across the entire world of operating system

01:19:01   that has proved very durable and useful.

01:19:04   There's no underlying design

01:19:08   that really negates that interface,

01:19:09   and it's not to say that could be the only thing,

01:19:11   that you could have some sort of real-time operating system

01:19:12   that you use in the car and it has advanced features,

01:19:14   but you can implement the sort of old fuddy-duddy POSIX

01:19:17   APIs on top of that and give them a road going forward. That said, so far, everything that

01:19:24   Apple has made has shown that the guts of NextStep/Mac OS X is surprisingly flexible.

01:19:30   They put it on a watch, right? They didn't just put it in a phone or a knife, they put

01:19:35   it in a wristwatch. So I'm not sure what flexibility or new features you need from the Core OS

01:19:41   that you're not getting. They put it on the giant Mac Pro all the way down to a wristwatch,

01:19:45   And it's done really well in all of those different applications.

01:19:48   It just goes to show that the CoreOS is not the limiting factor in those things.

01:19:52   So I don't think there's any specific thing that Apple needs for any of the platforms

01:19:57   that are currently planned to setting aside the car.

01:20:00   So AR/VR, future gaming console, any kind of computing device from a wristwatch all

01:20:06   the way up to a big personal computer.

01:20:09   I think their CoreOS is in a reasonable good place.

01:20:11   And it's not like it hasn't changed.

01:20:12   It is improved and everything, but I think I think that's doing mostly okay

01:20:16   They can redo replumb the kernel to try to fix some long-standing architectural problems

01:20:21   And they can do it in a way that we probably don't notice the car is the one where they might need a new approach

01:20:24   and rumor is that's what they were doing for the car, which is let's not build this on top of the Mac OS 10 Foundation because

01:20:31   it's kind of old and creaky in terms of

01:20:34   the way we need a car OS to handle like the reliability concerns of

01:20:38   thousand pound piece of metal are different than the reliability concerns of your cell phone, they just are.

01:20:42   So let's get something that's more reliable and we're not going to get to that reliability by starting with this giant code base and trying

01:20:49   to make it more reliable and plus we need real-time features because you kind of need to decide now now now whether you should turn and

01:20:54   their operating systems designed for that, right?

01:20:57   They're real-time operating systems using spacecraft and airplanes and all sorts of other stuff and Apple being Apple

01:21:03   of course, they would try to make their own right because they're a lot of smart people which fine.

01:21:07   But that project doesn't come out yet. So that is the only place where I think a new OS approach is

01:21:12   If not necessary then reasonably appropriate every other application Apple has applied

01:21:18   The Darwin core of Mac OS 10 Mac OS whatever - it has succeeded and gone great

01:21:26   Again, I will I will cite the wristwatch if you can get up there on a wristwatch and a giant Mac Pro

01:21:33   It's probably doing okay, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'm surprised by this

01:21:36   I was expecting a lot more angst from you.

01:21:40   I'm not saying this is bad. I'm just -- I'm surprised.

01:21:43   -There were rumors in that same blog

01:21:45   we had at the couple in 2010 thing was, like,

01:21:48   that the L4 microkernel was being investigated,

01:21:50   like, the really, really core of the OS.

01:21:52   Like, there's lots of interesting projects

01:21:54   of how you could make something more reliable or faster

01:21:57   or better in situations of high contention.

01:22:00   But you can do that without disturbing the higher layers.

01:22:03   And it turns out they haven't needed to do that yet.

01:22:06   yet. So it makes me think that there's not a particular crisis looming here. Maybe I

01:22:09   need the younger version of me to write like, "Avoiding Copeland 2057." But right now, I

01:22:16   think, with the exception of the car project, they're in a reasonably good position.

01:22:20   Patrick writes, "I haven't owned or played a gaming system in over 10 years. Recently,

01:22:24   I played some Halo with a friend. It was a lot of fun, and I'm thinking about getting

01:22:27   a modern system. The problem, however, is that I don't know which one to get. I don't

01:22:30   want to buy multiple platforms since I'm not a hardcore gamer. The Switch, PS5, and Xbox

01:22:34   all have a game or two that look really appealing. Do you have any advice on helping me choose

01:22:38   a platform? Without knowing exactly which games look appealing to Patrick on each platform,

01:22:45   I would just say go with the one that's going to give you the most fun. You know, if you're

01:22:49   not a hardcore gamer, that means that getting the latest and greatest graphics on like the

01:22:54   PS5 and you know, Xbox, whatever it is, it's a lower priority. What you're optimizing for

01:23:00   is fun and I think for most people the odds are you'd have the most fun with the Switch

01:23:06   out of those. It's also right now much easier to get. So that helps and it benefits from

01:23:15   a pretty large software library since it's been out a few years now compared to the PS5

01:23:21   and Xbox whatever which are both much newer. And so I would say unless there's a really

01:23:27   must have game or games calling you over to the PS5 or Xbox, go with the Switch because

01:23:32   you're more likely to find a lot of fun there and it's just easier to approach being less

01:23:38   expensive, easier to get, larger game library already in place and it has the benefit of

01:23:43   being portable if you ever actually need that which you might not think you would use but

01:23:47   you might end up using it.

01:23:49   I don't think there's a larger game library because you forget the PlayStation plays PlayStation

01:23:53   games and the Xbox plays the older Xbox games as well so there's a big catalog of those.

01:23:58   But the not a hardcore gamer is the big twist here because it makes people think like what

01:24:03   you just said okay well then you don't care about all these you know why get a super expensive

01:24:07   super powerful console you don't care you're not a hardcore gamer.

01:24:10   But if you're not a hardcore gamer that also means the people who say that probably don't

01:24:15   have a lot of experience especially with modern video games so you don't know if that person

01:24:21   is the type of person who is going to love World of Warcraft and should therefore get

01:24:26   a gaming PC, right? Because they've never had contact with it. They don't have any immunities

01:24:30   built up. They don't have the antibodies. You don't know what thing is going to be their

01:24:34   thing. It could be that it turns out that they're super into real-time strategy games,

01:24:38   or they get obsessed with puzzle games, or they're really, really into Final Fantasy.

01:24:44   You just don't know because they haven't been exposed to them, so they can't give you an

01:24:47   opinion, "I like this type of game or that type of game." And so guessing like, "Oh,

01:24:50   you should like Nintendo because most people like Nintendo and it's fun.

01:24:53   It's hard to make that assumption.

01:24:55   If I had met this person in real life, I'd talk to them and try to figure out, you know,

01:25:00   if you've played any games in the past, which one appealed to you?

01:25:03   You're like, "Well, I used to play SimCity a lot and I would lose hours and hours in

01:25:06   SimCity and Civilization."

01:25:07   Right?

01:25:09   That tells me a lot about what type of game they're going to be interested in.

01:25:12   But by the same token, if they've never played an open world game, for example, maybe that's

01:25:17   the thing that is going to make them obsessed.

01:25:20   And it's so difficult to choose a platform without really interrogating somebody about

01:25:23   that, because most people who play video games don't play like any large percentage of the

01:25:31   games available for a platform.

01:25:32   Not everybody's like me where you essentially play one game all the time, but some people

01:25:35   don't.

01:25:36   But one game, some people, all they play is World of Warcraft, right?

01:25:39   For a first approximation, all I play is Destiny, right?

01:25:42   That's one type of gamer.

01:25:44   But the other type is not someone who plays 75 games a year.

01:25:48   people play a small number of games per year of the type that they like. And if you are

01:25:54   really really into, you know, Zelda, you have to get Nintendo. It's the only place it is.

01:26:01   There's not even any kind of Zelda equivalents on other platforms for the most part. Sorry

01:26:04   Oceanhorn. And if you just play like the one or two Zelda games that are released and then

01:26:11   a couple other things, you have to get a Nintendo platform. So that's the danger of picking

01:26:15   it flat for me, like, I'm really excited about Call of Duty and that's available everywhere,

01:26:21   right?

01:26:22   Well, fast forward and maybe it's only available on Xbox and PC and they get a PlayStation

01:26:25   and they're like, "Oh, but I want to play Call of Duty.

01:26:26   In fact, that's the only thing I want to do with my game system is play Call of Duty.

01:26:30   Now I can't play Call of Duty, this thing is useless to me."

01:26:33   But when someone's not a hardcore gamer, you don't know, like, are they going to be a single

01:26:37   franchise player for a decade or are they going to get heavily into one or two types

01:26:41   of games that are better on one platform than the other?

01:26:43   So it's really a shot in the dark.

01:26:44   So my suggestion for anyone like this is find a game that you think you really want to play

01:26:53   and maybe test that theory by trying it over a friend's house or whatever and then buy

01:26:58   whatever platform that game is on.

01:26:59   If it's on multiple platforms then it's an easier conversation.

01:27:02   You can talk about price and features and availability but I know it's difficult because

01:27:07   you're like I don't want to buy the wrong platform but really what you want to do is

01:27:09   is find the game or games that appeal to you

01:27:12   and then buy whatever platform

01:27:14   lets you play that game or games.

01:27:16   - But I would say like the odds of the Switch

01:27:19   having stuff that you find really fun are pretty high.

01:27:23   - But it depends.

01:27:24   Maybe they're the type of person

01:27:25   who's going to get obsessively into civilization.

01:27:28   The Switch is not gonna help them there, right?

01:27:30   All right, I don't know, civilization,

01:27:31   so I'm trying to think of a game like--

01:27:32   - Well, then you're a PC, I think, at that point.

01:27:35   - Right, but you don't know.

01:27:36   Like maybe someone who's just like,

01:27:38   All I do is play the sims right? There's all I do all day long is play the sims

01:27:41   That's the type of game I get into or like, you know or World of Warcraft or you know

01:27:45   An open world thing you have to you have to know

01:27:47   You never know if they haven't had contact with that what is going to suck them into the rabbit hole

01:27:51   Maybe they get sucked into no rabbit holes and they just want to casually play stuff and they just be fine with their phone

01:27:55   Right, so that's why it's so difficult for people who haven't been exposed because if you haven't been exposed

01:28:00   You don't know what if anything will grab you and you can't predict based on your past

01:28:06   Behavior because if you've never been exposed to World War Warcraft you have no idea whether it will consume your life or whether you will

01:28:12   Not care about it at all

01:28:13   It's this is the one moment where I kind of am sad that

01:28:18   Blockbuster video doesn't exist anymore right because didn't you talk about this Marco just a couple months back like renting video game systems and video

01:28:25   Games and whatnot and so you could like

01:28:26   Rent a switch and give it a try for a week or whatever a few nights just to see how it goes and then rent

01:28:32   An Xbox after that you know and so on it amazes me that they did that I mean I did that

01:28:36   I rented the systems, I was like, how did those systems survive for more than three

01:28:39   days? Yeah, seriously. It was a gentler time, I guess. I think I was the only person renting

01:28:43   the Sega Saturn, so it was getting pretty gently used. You again? Okay, you want the

01:28:48   Saturn? Here you go. All right, and then Peter Wagoner writes, "My wife and I recently combined

01:28:53   our last names into a single hyphenated last name. However, I know many people confuse

01:28:56   hyphens M dashes and N dashes." Is that right? Is it E-M or am I pronouncing that correctly?

01:29:03   - It's M, you got it right. - It's M and N, yep.

01:29:05   - All right, I didn't know if I was supposed to be

01:29:06   like spelling those out or anything.

01:29:08   Anyways, do most programming languages distinguish

01:29:10   between these three?

01:29:11   I worry someone will use the wrong one

01:29:13   and will wind up with multiple entries

01:29:14   in an important database somewhere,

01:29:15   or worse, they won't be able to find our entry at all.

01:29:18   - This is where not being a computer programmer

01:29:21   is a blessing for normal people.

01:29:24   But also it makes you have sometimes the wrong mental model

01:29:27   about what part of what is responsible for what.

01:29:29   So this is not, for the most part,

01:29:32   a programming language problem, but it is a problem.

01:29:37   But it's a problem for complicated, stupid reasons

01:29:40   that you probably don't care about involving

01:29:42   the entire stack between you

01:29:44   and where the data is stored in back.

01:29:46   And I'm sure all of us could describe

01:29:47   all the different places where this can get screwed up,

01:29:49   including sometimes the programming language,

01:29:52   but very rarely.

01:29:53   But the wire protocol, the database format,

01:29:58   the web form, like there are so many places

01:30:01   where non-ASCII characters can get mangled due to US dominance

01:30:06   and invention of the internet and international standards

01:30:08   and crap like that.

01:30:09   Yes, you probably should be concerned

01:30:13   that anything fancier than ASCII is going to get mangled

01:30:16   by some-- especially if you're in the US--

01:30:17   is going to get mangled by some system somewhere.

01:30:19   But it is not mostly the fault of the programming language.

01:30:22   It's the fault of one of the other 17 layers between you

01:30:25   and success.

01:30:27   Any time that you are relying on other people

01:30:29   to enter your information into a computer system,

01:30:32   you have a pretty high risk of errors there,

01:30:35   no matter whether you have a hyphen or not.

01:30:38   So I think that, Jon is right, first of all,

01:30:41   that this is not a language problem,

01:30:43   but this is a tautology problem in the sense that like,

01:30:45   you're relying on things like Unicode normalization

01:30:48   to match, and anybody who has a name that has a letter

01:30:53   that is not common in English, so for instance,

01:30:56   if you have a vowel that has an accent over it

01:31:00   of various forms as part of your name,

01:31:02   or something like that.

01:31:03   That's, there's gonna be a lot of cases

01:31:06   where not necessarily programming languages,

01:31:08   but just the frameworks, the databases,

01:31:10   as John was saying, different parts of the stack

01:31:12   might either not consider an A with an accent over it

01:31:16   to be an A, or they might consider that

01:31:19   to be a different character than an A,

01:31:21   or it might not match in the right way, or something.

01:31:25   - Or it gets double encoded because someone screwed up

01:31:26   the web form and so now the UTF-8 itself

01:31:29   becomes UTF-8 encoded and you get the big capital A

01:31:31   with a tilde over it.

01:31:32   There's just so many ways that this can go wrong.

01:31:35   - Right, but the good thing is like most things

01:31:37   that are related to like Unicode encoding,

01:31:41   UTF-8 encoding and stuff like that,

01:31:42   most of those things are probably being worked out

01:31:44   in most computer systems over the last few decades

01:31:47   because of the prevalence of having to make software

01:31:50   that works all over the world for every different language

01:31:53   and all the different character sets and everything.

01:31:54   So that problem is less of an issue, I think,

01:31:58   in most cases you're gonna find today.

01:31:59   The bigger problem, I think, is normalization.

01:32:01   - Except for the parts where you care about it the most,

01:32:04   like banks and healthcare, which are the most backwards

01:32:08   and the most terrible systems, and unfortunately,

01:32:10   money and health are probably the areas

01:32:12   where it's just going to annoy you the most.

01:32:14   Starbucks is gonna probably have your name

01:32:16   in beautiful, UTF-ing encoded characters

01:32:19   preserved everywhere across the whole entire thing.

01:32:21   But your hospital might not even be able to fit your name

01:32:24   because their field for last name only has like eight characters max.

01:32:28   And none of the, and they're all ASCII, right?

01:32:31   So it, things are slowly getting better, Unicode does make things better, but the older the

01:32:36   system, your DMV, whatever, the worse things tend to be.

01:32:40   - Yeah, the other thing that might help you out a little bit is that most people, especially

01:32:48   people who will be entering your name into a database somewhere, don't know how to type

01:32:52   em dashes or en dashes and don't even know what they are.

01:32:56   You know, we're lucky people can deal with things

01:32:58   like periods in anything.

01:33:00   Like relying on the general public

01:33:02   to type punctuation correctly, you know,

01:33:06   again, this is gonna be very error prone

01:33:08   no matter how you do it,

01:33:09   but most people don't know

01:33:12   that there are these different dashes,

01:33:15   nor would they know how to type them.

01:33:17   And usually if you see somebody

01:33:19   sending you a different dash,

01:33:20   It is not usually because they hit option minus or whatever,

01:33:24   or that they held down the hyphen key on their iOS keyboard

01:33:28   and waited a second and got the other two dashes there.

01:33:31   It's usually because they typed in two dashes in a row

01:33:34   and whatever they're typing in corrected it to an em dash

01:33:36   for them.

01:33:37   So this is like, no one's choosing to type these,

01:33:41   except nerds like me.

01:33:42   - Yeah, and very often you will not know how to enter them,

01:33:44   even if you're entering it yourself,

01:33:45   because say you're not on a Mac.

01:33:47   I came across this recently, someone was asking me,

01:33:49   how do I type this stuff in Windows?

01:33:50   And I was like, I don't know.

01:33:51   - Do they still have those like, you know,

01:33:52   Alt-O-1-5 or whatever codes?

01:33:54   - Yeah, type on a number pad.

01:33:55   - Oh my God, is that still like the only way to do it?

01:33:57   They have to fix that by now.

01:33:58   - It's Windows, that has to still work.

01:34:00   - Oh, I'm sure it does.

01:34:01   - I don't know the numerical code for an em dash,

01:34:03   do you, off the top of my head?

01:34:04   - No!

01:34:05   - And if you're not a Mac user,

01:34:06   you have no idea about all the, you know,

01:34:08   options, semi-colon for an ellipsis and crap like that,

01:34:10   right, so even if you are allowed to type it yourself,

01:34:13   the keyboard doesn't have those keys on it,

01:34:15   So you have to know how to enter them and it's weird.

01:34:18   - Thank you to our sponsors this week,

01:34:20   Squarespace, Linode, and Mack Weldon.

01:34:23   And thank you to our members who support us directly.

01:34:25   You can join, please do, atv.fm/join.

01:34:28   And we'll talk to you next week.

01:34:31   (upbeat music)

01:34:33   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:34:36   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:34:38   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:34:41   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:34:44   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:34:49   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

01:34:51   It was accidental (accidental)

01:34:54   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:34:59   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:35:04   @c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s

01:35:08   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:35:13   ♪ Anti-Marco armament ♪

01:35:15   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:35:18   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-O-Q-S-A ♪

01:35:20   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:35:22   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:35:23   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:35:26   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:35:27   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:35:28   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:35:30   ♪ So long ♪

01:35:32   - I had such a jerk store moment two weeks ago.

01:35:37   - Tell me more.

01:35:38   You were buying some dried meats?

01:35:40   - No.

01:35:41   - Oh yeah, what is it?

01:35:42   the spirit of the stairs.

01:35:43   Someone tell me the French for that in the chat room, please.

01:35:45   - What is that?

01:35:46   - I have no idea what you're talking about.

01:35:47   - A Spree de Scaglier, maybe?

01:35:49   Did I beat the chat room to it?

01:35:50   - I don't even, I think you beat the world to it.

01:35:52   - Yeah, seriously.

01:35:53   - Jerkstorm moment.

01:35:55   That's from a Seinfeld episode

01:35:56   where George remembers a great comeback line,

01:35:58   but he remembers it like a day later, right?

01:36:00   - Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:36:00   - So the spirit of the stairs is,

01:36:02   I think a French saying of like,

01:36:03   you remember the witty comeback

01:36:05   as you're going down the stairs

01:36:06   on your way out of the place where you were insulted.

01:36:08   - Oh, okay.

01:36:09   So two weeks ago,

01:36:10   (laughing)

01:36:12   When I did my first thing about eating more vegetables

01:36:16   and you guys were berating me

01:36:19   because you don't believe I like coconut

01:36:23   because I don't like dried toasted coconut flakes

01:36:26   and I'm sitting there in the edit the next morning,

01:36:28   I'm like, how did I not fight back on this

01:36:32   in the most obvious way?

01:36:34   And then I thought to myself,

01:36:35   how am I going to tell them this?

01:36:37   I better save it for next week.

01:36:39   Well then, next week comes around,

01:36:40   that's last week's show, and we talk about the same topic again, and I totally forget

01:36:46   to give this follow-up, and then the next morning editing that, I'm like, "Oh my god,

01:36:50   I can't believe. How did I not?"

01:36:53   Well, so hold on, I don't remember exactly what you said, but my recollection of the

01:36:57   conversation was, "You see, guys, I don't like coconut. I like this, this, this, this,

01:37:02   and this, which all include coconut, but I really don't like coconut."

01:37:05   No, it's even worse than that.

01:37:07   - No, you're misremembering it.

01:37:08   (laughing)

01:37:09   But before we get to that though, Marco,

01:37:11   I would like to remind you of what happened

01:37:14   in that Seinfeld episode.

01:37:16   Do you remember how it ends?

01:37:18   - I believe George eventually does get himself

01:37:21   back into that group and gives his stupid jerk store thing

01:37:25   and it falls on its face miserably,

01:37:28   which is how this is going to do.

01:37:29   - Maybe a cautionary tale.

01:37:31   So with that in mind, proceed and explain

01:37:33   to how we should not have said

01:37:35   that you really don't like coconut.

01:37:37   - So, okay, so my position on coconut is that I like,

01:37:41   I eat tons of coconut, I eat the coconut meat

01:37:44   like that you get precise at the grocery store,

01:37:46   like those little wedges of coconut.

01:37:48   I drink a lot of coconut milk,

01:37:50   and I have coconut-based cream and milk and stuff

01:37:53   in lots of other things.

01:37:55   Oh, and I like coconut water as well.

01:37:56   Okay, so.

01:37:57   - So you like coconut?

01:37:59   - You two said that the only way you like coconut

01:38:03   is shredded, toasted, dried. - No, I don't think so.

01:38:07   The only way.

01:38:08   I just said that that is a very common way.

01:38:11   - Okay, and then, and then you told me

01:38:14   that because I don't like the shredded, toasted,

01:38:17   dried version, that it sounds like I don't like coconut.

01:38:19   So okay, if you look at the, what is in a coconut?

01:38:23   What's in it, untouched, like you just take the hair off.

01:38:27   What's in the coconut, naturally, in the most basic state,

01:38:31   is all the stuff I like, and you guys are saying

01:38:34   you only like this one really processed version of it,

01:38:38   and that somehow I'm the one who doesn't like it?

01:38:41   You don't like coconut.

01:38:42   If you don't like coconut meat and coconut water

01:38:44   and coconut milk, you don't like coconut.

01:38:46   - We just like the other ones better.

01:38:47   It's like saying I like steak tartare,

01:38:49   but I don't like hamburger steak or any cooked form of meat.

01:38:53   And you're like, oh, you only like this processed form

01:38:54   of beef, and I'm like, well, I'm gonna say

01:38:56   if you don't like hamburgers or steaks, you don't like beef.

01:38:58   But I'll be like, you know I like steak tartare,

01:39:00   the raw version, in fact that's the best version.

01:39:02   I just go right up to the cow and I bite it.

01:39:05   You like the uncooked coconut meat,

01:39:06   but the most common form of coconut in this country

01:39:10   is shredded and very often toasted.

01:39:12   So Mounds and Almond Joy are shredded coconut.

01:39:16   - The most common form of cheese in this country

01:39:18   is American cheese.

01:39:19   Are you saying that if somebody doesn't like American cheese

01:39:22   that they don't like cheese?

01:39:23   - That's what I'm saying.

01:39:24   Cheese has more variety than coconut.

01:39:27   - Does it?

01:39:28   I think the thing, the coconuts that I'm eating,

01:39:30   the form of the coconut I'm eating is pretty different

01:39:32   from the form that you're eating.

01:39:34   - But the most common form,

01:39:35   you said you also didn't like German chocolate cake,

01:39:37   like we're not just saying dried toasted coconut,

01:39:39   although that is very common,

01:39:40   but you also excluded tons of other forms of coconut

01:39:43   that are way more common than just having the raw coconut.

01:39:45   So I think if you're saying I don't like any of those,

01:39:48   but I only like it raw, it's like only like mistake tartare,

01:39:51   but insisting that you love beef.

01:39:52   - No, I think I love coconut and I think you guys don't.

01:39:55   I think you guys love coconut candy.

01:39:58   - I would say that I don't generally care for coconut.

01:40:03   I think there are occasions where I like it.

01:40:04   It's typically like, the number one thing I can think of

01:40:07   is like coconut shrimp, which is deep fried

01:40:09   to smithereens. (laughing)

01:40:11   Which is very American.

01:40:12   - That's a lot of coconut.

01:40:13   - Well, I will be the first to tell you,

01:40:14   that is not really coconut at that point.

01:40:16   It is some other thing entirely.

01:40:19   - Is it even shrimp at that point?

01:40:20   I mean, that's-- - Yeah, who knows?

01:40:22   - That's mostly batter, like all fried things.

01:40:24   - Right?

01:40:25   But I think the analogy I use,

01:40:27   'cause I don't think I particularly care for coconut

01:40:29   with a couple of exceptions,

01:40:31   but the example I used is that I keep telling Aaron

01:40:34   that I don't like caramel, caramel,

01:40:35   however you pronounce it,

01:40:37   but then I'll keep saying, oh, this is really good,

01:40:39   and what is this?

01:40:40   And I can't think of a specific example,

01:40:42   but oh, that's chocolate covered in caramel.

01:40:44   And then I'll say something else,

01:40:45   oh, wow, that was really good, what was that?

01:40:47   Oh, it's such and such with caramel all over it.

01:40:49   But I don't like caramel,

01:40:50   and Aaron will just give me that look like,

01:40:52   you think you don't, but you do.

01:40:54   And so I would say that I don't particularly care for coconut with an exception or two.

01:40:59   And I think my coconut moment is that I tell you,

01:41:03   I would tell you I don't like caramel, but I think I actually do.

01:41:05   Yeah. And I think Marco, the thing you're missing,

01:41:07   you're saying the essential raw form of it is the, the primal form.

01:41:11   And I'm saying that the primal form is the form that it is most commonly found

01:41:14   in just like the cook beef thing. But yes, beef is meat eaten raw,

01:41:16   but generally it's cooked. And if you only like the raw form,

01:41:19   you can make the argument that this is the most primal form.

01:41:21   I like beef the most because I don't even need it to be cooked.

01:41:24   But in this country, that's weird.

01:41:25   And I feel like coconut is in the same category.

01:41:27   Most people have it shredded, sometimes dried,

01:41:30   sometimes toasted, but certainly not just raw from the thing.

01:41:33   And because you like it that way,

01:41:35   you think that means you really like coconut,

01:41:36   but I think it's because it's so uncommon

01:41:38   that you like it in a weird way,

01:41:40   and you don't like all of the much more common ways

01:41:42   that makes me think you're not as big a fan of coconut.

01:41:45   If you really love coconut, you say, "I like it in all forms."

01:41:47   Like, "If you really love beef, I love all forms of beef,

01:41:49   "from steak tartare to a great steak to a burger

01:41:52   to everything you possibly imagine. Steak smoothies, I love it. I think you'd have

01:41:57   a stronger argument there, but because you like a weird form of coconut the best and

01:42:02   actively dislike the other ones, it makes you less of a coconut fan in my eyes.

01:42:05   Well, first of all, I would say my weird form of coconut is only weird in the US, and even

01:42:11   then it's getting less weird over time as all these dairy alternatives start involving

01:42:17   coconut. The coconut milk is probably getting less weird.

01:42:20   The raw uncooked coconut staying weird.

01:42:23   - How do people, what do people do with them?

01:42:25   - I don't know if most people could even,

01:42:27   if we said you have one hour to buy a raw uncooked coconut,

01:42:30   go do it, most people couldn't accomplish that task

01:42:33   'cause they wouldn't even know where to look for it.

01:42:35   It's not, it's so uncommon.

01:42:37   Next time you're in Kroger, Casey,

01:42:39   see if they even have that in the store.

01:42:41   - You assume I'm going into grocery stores these days.

01:42:44   It's all clickless, baby.

01:42:45   - Someone's gotta go into groceries.

01:42:46   - No, even Aaron doesn't.

01:42:47   We all, we do the deliver to your Trump thing.

01:42:50   - Well, that's even better test.

01:42:51   Have some Instacart person trying to find this for you.

01:42:54   Like, what?

01:42:55   You want a what?

01:42:56   Coconut, and they'll bring you a bag of shredded coconut

01:42:58   because that's the much more common form.

01:43:00   - All kidding aside, can you not find coconut

01:43:02   in the produce section?

01:43:03   I'm genuinely asking, I have no idea.

01:43:05   - You can find whole coconuts sometimes.

01:43:06   - Usually they have those peeled ones

01:43:09   that they have somehow removed the dark brown hair

01:43:13   on the outside and what's left is this tan,

01:43:15   like a cone, it's like a weird shape.

01:43:19   They've like shaved off part of it.

01:43:21   I haven't been brave enough to open one of those up yet,

01:43:23   but I almost did last time, but they felt kind of soft.

01:43:25   - Yeah, but Whole Foods is the only place

01:43:27   that has for $1,000 a piece,

01:43:28   the pre-cut up pieces of coconut.

01:43:31   - And they're delicious.

01:43:32   - 'Cause Whole Foods will pre-cut up any fruit for you

01:43:34   and charge you $1,000 for it.

01:43:36   - Is there anything that isn't $1,000 for Whole Foods?

01:43:38   - No, there's some things like--

01:43:39   - Pineapples.

01:43:40   - Milk is a loss leader at Whole Foods.

01:43:43   Our Whole Foods is the place where we can get

01:43:45   the cheapest milk.

01:43:45   - Is that right? - If they want to get you

01:43:46   in the door, but do not buy any cut up fruit,

01:43:48   because it costs more than a car.

01:43:50   - I think we might have told this story on ATP

01:43:52   like literally five years ago,

01:43:53   but one day when I was at my jobby job,

01:43:56   I decided to go out to eat,

01:43:58   or like to grab some food from out,

01:44:00   which was very unusual for me.

01:44:01   Usually I brought like a sandwich or something.

01:44:03   And I decided to go out and I worked very close

01:44:06   to a Whole Foods, and so I went to Whole Foods

01:44:08   and I went to the little hot bar and I was treating myself.

01:44:11   - There's your mistake on so many levels.

01:44:12   - Hold on, on a million levels, but I'm all excited.

01:44:16   I got a little of this, a little of that.

01:44:18   And because I'm American, I grabbed, you know,

01:44:20   like a ladle full of mac and cheese,

01:44:22   which of course weighs 85 tons.

01:44:24   - And that and the hard boiled eggs,

01:44:26   the weight will kill you.

01:44:28   - Exactly, and so I grabbed some mac and cheese

01:44:30   and I went through the line

01:44:31   and of course this was 10 years ago, my memory shot.

01:44:33   And so I'm probably making this up, but I genuinely think--

01:44:35   - You're forgetting that you told the story

01:44:36   on the show before, but go on.

01:44:37   - I said that I told the story on the show before.

01:44:39   You at least give me credit for that.

01:44:41   So anyway, so I go to check out

01:44:43   and it was like $18 at the hot bar for just me.

01:44:46   - And that's a bargain.

01:44:47   you can't get one thing and cut up pineapple for that price.

01:44:51   - That's how they get to it.

01:44:51   That isn't a whole food problem, that's every hot bar.

01:44:54   When I used to work in Manhattan,

01:44:56   we'd go out to lunch a lot of days,

01:44:57   and we'd occasionally go to a place

01:45:00   that had one of those big hot bars.

01:45:02   You put anything in there, $13, anything.

01:45:05   - Yeah, and it makes economic sense,

01:45:07   both the hot bars and the pre-cut fruit,

01:45:10   it's not like they're gouging you for the hell of it,

01:45:12   it's because you have to pay someone

01:45:15   to cut up all that fruit,

01:45:16   and then they end up throwing out tons of it

01:45:17   because it doesn't keep, right?

01:45:18   And so someone prepares all that food,

01:45:20   cooks it, puts it in these dishes,

01:45:22   sits it out there, and then half of it gets thrown away

01:45:23   because nobody bought it.

01:45:24   And so the one person who buys a salad

01:45:27   pays for a huge amount of food.

01:45:29   And when you buy that thing of cut up fruit,

01:45:32   yes, it's the cost of the fruit,

01:45:33   but then it's the time of the person cutting it up.

01:45:36   And then there's the fact that the seven other bins

01:45:38   of pineapple are gonna get thrown away in two days

01:45:40   and no one's gonna buy them.

01:45:40   So you're buying all those too.

01:45:42   (laughing)

01:45:45   - I think I mostly just upset because I had a pineapple

01:45:47   today and it was really disappointing.

01:45:49   My latest pineapple.

01:45:50   - You discussed the difficulty of trying to get one

01:45:53   that is the correct ripeness.

01:45:54   I did actually Google up on that to try it,

01:45:55   but it was very difficult advice to follow.

01:45:58   - I even, and I knew when I was buying it,

01:46:00   'cause I was wearing a big mask,

01:46:02   and I was trying to dip the mask down

01:46:03   to smell the bottom of the pineapple,

01:46:05   and I couldn't smell much, and I'm like,

01:46:06   "Well, can I not smell much because I just had a mask

01:46:07   "on my face for an hour, or can I not smell much?"

01:46:10   Yeah, well.

01:46:11   - Right. (laughs)

01:46:13   - No, thank God that wasn't it,

01:46:14   But yeah, so like, I knew going into it,

01:46:18   I'm like, this is gonna be a pretty bland pineapple.

01:46:20   But they were really, they were like on sale

01:46:22   for like two bucks, I'm like, I gotta try it,

01:46:24   just in case.

01:46:25   - Isn't that your hint right there?

01:46:25   - It's a $2 pineapple in January, Marco thinks

01:46:28   I'm gonna go for it.

01:46:29   (laughing)

01:46:31   - I don't know anything about pineapple,

01:46:32   and even I know that's a poor choice.

01:46:34   (laughing)

01:46:35   - I mean, for $2 you can't go,

01:46:36   I mean, it's probably worth the gamble.

01:46:38   'Cause who knows, you got lucky, but you didn't.

01:46:40   - Yeah, I mean, it's not inedible,

01:46:42   It's just not a good pineapple.

01:46:45   When you get a good one, it's so good.

01:46:47   Because I like pineapples, Jon.

01:46:49   I don't know if, I find the natural form of it

01:46:52   and I cut it up and I eat it and I like that.

01:46:54   Does that make-- - Even now, I would say

01:46:56   that if you like fresh pineapples

01:46:57   but didn't like canned pineapples,

01:46:59   I'd be like, "Mm, you don't really like pineapple."

01:47:01   - Now, I don't like pineapple-flavored seltzer.

01:47:03   Does that make me don't like pineapple, Jon?

01:47:05   - Pineapple-flavored seltzer is just carbonated water

01:47:07   that I wave a pineapple over for two seconds.

01:47:09   It's like my martinis with vermouth.

01:47:11   - You know, it's funny to me how genuinely upset you are

01:47:14   about this market.

01:47:15   - I love coconut, don't tell me I don't love coconut.

01:47:17   - This has been annoying me for two weeks.

01:47:19   - I know purest coconut love, your coconut love is processed,

01:47:23   but I love pure coconut.

01:47:24   - No, but it was the goal of you telling me

01:47:26   I don't like coconut because I eat it

01:47:28   like the most direct way.

01:47:29   - I explained, I think I explained my reasoning.

01:47:32   I mean, you may disagree with it,

01:47:33   but I had, that was my thinking on that.

01:47:35   And I think it is not an unreasonable way to think about

01:47:38   who loves something more than someone else.

01:47:41   Only you are agreeing on cheese.

01:47:43   [LAUGHTER]

01:47:46   (laughing)