464: Monks at Drafting Tables


00:00:00   - We were all over the place.

00:00:01   - Yeah.

00:00:02   (laughing)

00:00:03   - Even for us, we were all over the place.

00:00:04   - Covering a lot of important ground,

00:00:06   involving dogs and leather and television.

00:00:10   I don't know.

00:00:10   (laughing)

00:00:11   (electronic music)

00:00:13   - All right, let's start with some follow up.

00:00:14   Stuart Hay had a lot of information on chroma sub-sampling

00:00:17   and I can try to make my way through this, John,

00:00:20   but I have a feeling you're better suited for this one.

00:00:22   - No, you gotta do it.

00:00:23   You can do it.

00:00:24   This was about the name you were saying.

00:00:25   Why is it called 422444?

00:00:28   Like the explanation in the RTINGS thing

00:00:30   didn't make any sense, so Stuart Hay explained it,

00:00:32   but you can read through it.

00:00:33   - Oh, it's just super.

00:00:35   Okay, well here we go. - I believe in you.

00:00:36   - Thanks, Ben.

00:00:37   - I cut it down to what I think are the essentials.

00:00:40   - I have my doubts.

00:00:41   - Yeah, seriously.

00:00:42   All right, well anyway, here we go.

00:00:42   So, and by the way,

00:00:43   all this snark has nothing to do with you, Stuart.

00:00:45   Your feedback was excellent.

00:00:46   It's all with me dreading having to make my way

00:00:48   through all of this terminology.

00:00:50   So here we go, buckle up.

00:00:51   Stuart writes, "I've enjoyed a little trip down memory lane

00:00:53   "to my training as a broadcast engineer

00:00:55   "while listening to your discussion

00:00:56   "around chroma subsampling

00:00:57   and felt the article you linked to, although informative,

00:00:59   was missing the reference back to the original ITU-R-BT.601

00:01:04   standard, which may answer why we ended up

00:01:06   with the 4 colon 4 colon 4 terminology used

00:01:08   to describe chroma subsampling.

00:01:10   - I'm gonna say, you just say 4 4 4 for that one.

00:01:12   - Well, I'm just trying to establish--

00:01:13   - Please. (laughs)

00:01:14   - Can you give me, play in the space, people,

00:01:16   play in the space, just give me a chance.

00:01:17   - Well, we did YCBCR last time, right?

00:01:19   I think it's like 4 4 4, 4 2 2, 4 1 1,

00:01:22   I think that's the nomenclature.

00:01:23   - Do you wanna do this?

00:01:24   - And I think for the other ones,

00:01:25   you can just do Y and C B and C R,

00:01:26   don't worry about the primes.

00:01:28   - I feel like a married couple.

00:01:29   Is this my story or yours, Jon?

00:01:30   - Keep going.

00:01:31   Did you watch "En Canto" as well?

00:01:32   I feel like they-- - I did, actually.

00:01:34   - I feel like they shouldn't have used that joke

00:01:35   twice in the song, yes.

00:01:36   I understand the end of the song.

00:01:37   They're just re-summarizing all the things

00:01:39   they said earlier, but I still feel like

00:01:40   it would've been stronger to just use it once.

00:01:41   Anyway, go on.

00:01:42   - It was very good, by the way.

00:01:43   I extracted the below from the Tektronix glossary,

00:01:46   which I have found useful throughout my career.

00:01:48   422, the number's 422, denote the ratio

00:01:51   of sampling frequencies of the single luminance channel

00:01:55   to the two color difference channels.

00:01:57   For every four luminance samples,

00:01:59   there are two samples of each color difference channel,

00:02:00   hence four, two, two.

00:02:02   - All right, so before you go on,

00:02:03   like this is a piece of historic information

00:02:05   that I think we were missing.

00:02:06   This nomenclature comes from the pre-digital days

00:02:09   and that based on the sentence here,

00:02:11   the way they did things in the analog world

00:02:14   was to have a luminance channel

00:02:15   and then two color difference channels.

00:02:17   I'm assuming that they split up the color signal

00:02:20   and made two things that when you combine them,

00:02:21   you get the color back out.

00:02:22   I don't know the exact details,

00:02:23   So the point is that there was two color difference channels

00:02:26   and one luminance channel.

00:02:27   That's why you end up with the three numbers

00:02:29   despite what we're talking about is luminance and chroma,

00:02:31   which is just two things.

00:02:32   So that was enlightening for me

00:02:34   and that starts to make a lot more sense.

00:02:35   How that relates to digital is a little bit weird,

00:02:37   but it's, you know, for broadcast stuff, I can imagine,

00:02:39   it's like for historical reasons, back in the day,

00:02:42   we transmitted the information over analog wires

00:02:45   in this way and that's why it's three numbers.

00:02:48   - Four one one, four one one indicates

00:02:49   that Y has been sampled at 13.5 megahertz

00:02:52   while CB and CR were each sampled at 3.375 megahertz.

00:02:57   Thus for every four samples of Y,

00:02:59   there is one sample each of CB and CR.

00:03:02   4-2-0, a sampling system used to digitize the luminance

00:03:05   and color difference components Y, RY, and BY

00:03:08   of a video signal.

00:03:09   The four represents the 13.5 megahertz sampling frequency

00:03:12   of Y, while the RY and BY are sampled at 6.75 megahertz,

00:03:17   effectively between every other line only.

00:03:20   - So what we learned is that analog ruins everything

00:03:22   by making it weird and complicated.

00:03:23   And then we went to digital,

00:03:24   we got saddled with a lot of the same terminology.

00:03:26   (laughing)

00:03:28   - Yep, so that's a fair, pretty fair summary actually.

00:03:30   - About right.

00:03:31   - All right, moving right along.

00:03:34   Thank you, by the way, to Stuart Hay for that feedback.

00:03:37   Moving right along, Hyper has released

00:03:40   a new Thunderbolt 4 hub,

00:03:44   additionally a turntable dock,

00:03:45   which I thought was quite funny,

00:03:46   but that's actually not what we're trying to talk about.

00:03:48   The turntable dock is designed

00:03:49   so you can put a new iMac on it

00:03:50   you can then spin the iMac left and right

00:03:53   in order to show like a coworker or what have you.

00:03:55   But anyway, but what we're interested in

00:03:57   is their Thunderbolt dock and reading from MacRumors.

00:04:01   It's CES, Hyper announced what it claims

00:04:03   is the first Thunderbolt 4 hub with an integrated 100 watt,

00:04:07   how do you pronounce this?

00:04:08   Is it GAN, what is it?

00:04:09   - I go with GAN, that's how I read it in my head.

00:04:11   That's how the anchor CEO pronounced it

00:04:14   on a podcast interview.

00:04:15   - What is it like gallium?

00:04:17   - Gallium nitride or something like that.

00:04:18   - Thank you.

00:04:19   Power supply, the hub features one Thunderbolt 4

00:04:21   upstream port and three Thunderbolt 4 downstream ports.

00:04:25   This is very similar to the dock that I have

00:04:27   that I'm using that I've already forgotten the name of,

00:04:29   which I like, however, I am really into, no sarcasm,

00:04:32   the 100 watt power supply thing,

00:04:34   because what does the 14 inch take?

00:04:37   It takes like 60, 70 watts, something like that?

00:04:39   - 65, something like that, and then, yeah,

00:04:41   then the 16 takes, I think, 95 or 100.

00:04:44   - I think that's right, somewhere in that neck of the woods.

00:04:45   So, this would be able to power, you know,

00:04:47   one of these new MacBook Pros much more effectively,

00:04:50   which is super neat.

00:04:51   - That's not the big selling point.

00:04:51   The big selling point is no giant power brick.

00:04:53   - Yeah, that's why it's a giant dock.

00:04:55   (laughs)

00:04:56   But yeah, this is, so yeah, 'cause as far as I can tell,

00:04:58   this is basically the same guts,

00:05:02   like the same functionality, the same ports

00:05:04   and how they are split up,

00:05:05   as many of these other docks that we've mentioned recently

00:05:08   that many companies are making

00:05:09   for around the same price point,

00:05:10   but this is nice because it is, first of all,

00:05:13   providing 100 watts of power, which many of them don't.

00:05:16   I believe the CalDigit one I think is 60 watts.

00:05:19   The OWC one I think is 85 or 90, something like that.

00:05:23   So this might be the highest power

00:05:25   that's being provided by this whole category of products.

00:05:28   So if you happen to be plugging in a 16 inch MacBook Pro

00:05:32   and you actually run it hard enough

00:05:34   to need that kind of power all the time,

00:05:37   which I actually, I run mine with the XDR's power

00:05:40   and I believe the XDR only powers up to

00:05:42   something like 85 watts.

00:05:43   And it's never been an issue

00:05:45   because I'm not like encoding video 24/7.

00:05:47   But if you need that, or if you prefer the internal power

00:05:52   supply and not having some giant power brick,

00:05:54   like I would definitely prefer, this looks pretty good.

00:05:58   So good for them.

00:05:59   I'm glad that somebody got the memo that, hey,

00:06:02   not everything has to be a tiny little box for product

00:06:05   marketing shots and this giant black power

00:06:07   brick somewhere on the cable to outsource the problem so

00:06:10   that they don't show up in your marketing shots.

00:06:12   Look at this thing I just put in the chat.

00:06:14   I was going to head to Hyper's website

00:06:15   and they have this other product,

00:06:16   which looks a lot like the,

00:06:17   kind of like the things we got for laptops at work.

00:06:20   It's got an HDMI on the side of it

00:06:21   and then USB stuff or whatever,

00:06:23   but look what it's got on top.

00:06:25   - Whoa.

00:06:26   - Play, pause,

00:06:27   - It's media keys. - back and forth, yeah.

00:06:28   - Yeah, play, seek back and seek forth.

00:06:30   That's, and this is only for iPads?

00:06:32   - No, this is like for,

00:06:34   well yeah, I guess it's-- - For iPad it says.

00:06:36   - Does it not work on laptops?

00:06:37   I mean, obviously on laptops

00:06:38   you have these keys on your keyboard.

00:06:40   Now they're actual real physical keys too, right?

00:06:42   The side of it that the USB-C connector is on

00:06:44   is molded to fit a modern iPad,

00:06:46   but if you look at the one, two, three, fourth image down,

00:06:49   it says extension cable for universal compatibility.

00:06:52   So in case you don't wanna plug it in directly to an iPad,

00:06:55   then you can use this little two or three inch

00:06:58   little jumper cable, if you will,

00:06:59   in order to plug it into a regular computer.

00:07:01   - So I guess it probably just simulates keyboard commands

00:07:04   for the media controls?

00:07:05   - I guess. - Yeah, I imagine.

00:07:06   But when you have it on the side of an iPad,

00:07:08   the play button points upwards,

00:07:11   and then they left the back and previous are up and down.

00:07:14   - I mean, in all fairness, almost any iPad accessory

00:07:17   makes it or itself look sideways at some point.

00:07:21   There's just no getting around that.

00:07:23   - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:07:24   - Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

00:07:25   - That is neat.

00:07:26   - I will say it is quite an ugly setup.

00:07:28   When you scroll down and you see the one

00:07:29   where the iPad has the cable sticking out,

00:07:32   what is now the top port on this thing,

00:07:35   it says get phenomenal 4K video.

00:07:37   You see like-- - Yeah, that's weird.

00:07:38   - Can you, oh man.

00:07:40   This is like part of the problem with any kind of bolt-on accessory or dongle kind of

00:07:47   thing.

00:07:48   You get these great computing devices like an iPad or an iPhone and okay, well now I

00:07:53   want to add this functionality to it and then you have to have this giant clunky thing and

00:07:58   there's wires everywhere all of a sudden.

00:08:01   You start to, again, it's just like the power supply thing.

00:08:03   You start to lose the appeal of the marketing photos very quickly.

00:08:07   And spoilers for 6 colors like Apple yearly report thing that I just filled out and sent

00:08:13   to Jason today, but one of my comments about the iPad was like basically now that the MacBook

00:08:19   Pros got their ports back, maybe it's time to reconsider whether the iPad Pro should

00:08:24   have more than one port on it.

00:08:26   Because hey, it is Pro and they're pretty big and the one port they have is like a Thunderbolt-y

00:08:30   USB-C type thing, but really just one on the Pro product.

00:08:33   room for more and that could save you from at least some of this mess.

00:08:36   Yeah, although I mean honestly like having a Thunderbolt on there on the most recent

00:08:40   ones is great because then you can just use one of these hubs if you need to. But yeah,

00:08:44   definitely obviously you know it's much better to have you know built-in ports as I've always

00:08:49   argued because first of all they're free. You know it's you know a lot of people will

00:08:54   excuse the lack of some kind of port by saying oh it's fine just buy a dongle but like you

00:08:58   you don't consider the cost of dongles.

00:09:00   Like these Thunderbolt expansion dongles are $200.

00:09:04   And for a lot of people, that's a significant investment

00:09:07   for something that they think should probably be built in

00:09:11   to the product.

00:09:12   But then you also have to carry it.

00:09:13   You gotta plug it in somehow.

00:09:15   Like you gotta power them.

00:09:16   It's a big thing to have them built in.

00:09:19   - Yeah, obviously they're not free,

00:09:20   free when they're on the iPad

00:09:21   and then it costs more to manufacture them

00:09:23   and so on and so forth.

00:09:24   But we're not saying like,

00:09:25   hey, you should have HDMI and SD card slot

00:09:27   and five USB-A or whatever, we're just saying,

00:09:29   maybe how about two Thunderbolt ports?

00:09:31   One, maybe three, on all three sides.

00:09:34   Just rethinking whether one is the right number,

00:09:38   especially for the really gigantic 13-inch

00:09:41   or whatever it is, iPad Pro.

00:09:44   Maybe one or two also very small Thunderbolt ports

00:09:49   would be appropriate for a device

00:09:50   at that price and capability.

00:09:52   - Do you think, though, I mean,

00:09:54   I don't wanna start a thing with the iPad people,

00:09:56   but do you think anybody's using the port for more--

00:10:00   - Well, that gets into your story from the previous week

00:10:03   about how terrible iPad OS is at taking advantage

00:10:07   of the stuff that's in there.

00:10:08   So it's got the same M1 chip as the Max, right?

00:10:11   But the Max are just so much more capable

00:10:13   and it's not because the hardware is less capable.

00:10:14   The hardware on the iPad is great.

00:10:16   It's because the OS is cranky about just doing

00:10:19   what you would expect a computer to do

00:10:21   when you plug in a storage peripheral.

00:10:23   And again, it's not like Apple doesn't have an OS

00:10:24   that understands how to deal with external storage.

00:10:28   The hardware is limiting it a little bit

00:10:29   and then you only got the one port

00:10:30   acting like it's an iPad from, you know,

00:10:33   what year did the iPad come out?

00:10:34   - 2010. - 2010, yeah.

00:10:35   It's not 2010 anymore.

00:10:36   The iPad is so much more powerful and capable.

00:10:39   It's an amazing machine.

00:10:40   Still just got the one little, thinky little port on it.

00:10:42   And then on top of that, the OS,

00:10:43   even though it's making moves in the right direction,

00:10:45   is so slow to just sort of let us do

00:10:47   what we know the hardware can do.

00:10:50   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:10:50   I still, I mean, again, I don't wanna get into a thing,

00:10:53   but I think Apple really still hasn't found

00:10:58   like where the iPad Pro is supposed to be,

00:11:02   what it's supposed to really be able to do software wise.

00:11:06   Hardware wise, it's very capable

00:11:08   and we've been saying this for years,

00:11:10   everyone's been saying this for years,

00:11:11   like the iPad hardware seems to be way over provisioned

00:11:15   for the software's actual needs

00:11:18   and actual use of gen limitations.

00:11:20   And that iPad power users for years have said,

00:11:23   hey this hardware is great, please make the software

00:11:26   allow us to do more things,

00:11:27   or make it more pro-friendly in some way.

00:11:30   And it just seems like that whole dream

00:11:35   really kind of fizzled out a lot

00:11:38   over the last couple years with the massive improvement

00:11:41   happening in the MacBook line with the switch to the M1.

00:11:44   And I know a lot of iPad people have recently switched back

00:11:49   to MacBook Airs or something and are very happy there.

00:11:52   And I wonder if the whole iPad Pro project, maybe,

00:11:57   or initiative, maybe is not panning out.

00:12:03   - I mean, I think it's working fine.

00:12:04   They're just going slowly.

00:12:05   But I think the matching hardware,

00:12:06   now that it's M1 just like the Macs,

00:12:08   just really highlights, like,

00:12:11   we don't, like, iPad OS doesn't need all that baggage

00:12:14   it used to have, that it used to have

00:12:16   because iPads were obviously less than Macs.

00:12:18   Like, all the stuff about, like, oh,

00:12:19   we can't have too many background processes

00:12:21   and we're gonna kill your thing

00:12:22   as soon as you add a memory and don't use too much CPU

00:12:24   and don't do this.

00:12:25   It's like, you could,

00:12:26   I know they're not exact matches now,

00:12:28   but you could introduce an iPad Pro

00:12:30   that has the same amount of RAM

00:12:32   and the same system on a chip as a MacBook Air

00:12:35   or even a low-end MacBook Pro

00:12:37   in the case of the big thing, right?

00:12:39   And then what's your excuse?

00:12:41   Why are all those limitations there in iOS?

00:12:43   And some of the limitations are there for safety,

00:12:45   sandboxing and having APIs that can't do weird things

00:12:48   and security, like I understand all that.

00:12:49   Keep all the good stuff,

00:12:51   but all the rest of the things about,

00:12:53   we don't want you to see too many apps on the screen at once

00:12:55   'cause it could be too confusing,

00:12:57   and that we have really limited multitasking,

00:12:59   and we don't want you to be able to arbitrarily place thing

00:13:01   and not don't have too many floating things,

00:13:03   and don't have many programs running at once,

00:13:05   and only give yourself limited time in the background,

00:13:08   and the OS will kill your app.

00:13:09   Those type of limitations make less and less sense

00:13:12   when you could have essentially identical hardware

00:13:15   in a low-end to mid-range Mac and the high-end iPad.

00:13:19   And that's before we get to the stuff of like,

00:13:22   why is the files app so cranky, right?

00:13:24   Like why did it not read Marco's card, but the Mac did.

00:13:26   There's nothing about that,

00:13:27   that reading external storage in a sane way,

00:13:31   no feature that we like about the iPad,

00:13:34   the simplicity, the security, the sandboxing or whatever,

00:13:37   none of that precludes doing a better job

00:13:39   at what Marco was trying to do with external storage

00:13:41   on these pro products.

00:13:42   And none of it precludes having one or two more ports either.

00:13:44   Like you can do all of that.

00:13:46   It's just the OS has not,

00:13:47   it doesn't seem like it's caught up.

00:13:48   It's like when a teenager grows real fast

00:13:52   and their brain doesn't keep up with the new size

00:13:56   of their body and they become awkward and bump into things.

00:13:59   That's like what the iPad Pro is.

00:14:01   - Yeah, and it's wonderfully capable.

00:14:03   Like, again, the hardware is amazing,

00:14:05   and the software can be amazing for certain use profiles,

00:14:10   but it just seems like they have had a lot of trouble

00:14:15   expanding what those use profiles are,

00:14:18   Like expanding the number of people who can and are willing

00:14:22   to easily get their work done on iPads.

00:14:24   It seems like that, like if you're one of the people

00:14:26   who fits into it, it's great.

00:14:28   But that number of people seems to have

00:14:30   a lot of trouble expanding.

00:14:32   - Like think about the use case that we always hear about

00:14:34   'cause we're podcasters and we know a bunch of podcasters.

00:14:36   Doing podcast recording on an iPad, you can do it,

00:14:40   but it's way more difficult than it should be.

00:14:42   And there's nothing about podcast recording

00:14:46   that should be a challenge to iPad Pro hardware

00:14:50   in the slightest.

00:14:50   It is all software limitations.

00:14:53   Apple could address that use case.

00:14:55   That should be one of their test cases.

00:14:57   Can you do audio production, both the editing of it,

00:15:00   which is getting much better with the new apps

00:15:02   that are out now, but also the recording of it?

00:15:03   The limitations of the iPad are it doesn't have

00:15:05   great ports for that.

00:15:06   There's no way at the OS level to have the kind of control

00:15:09   over streams of audio from different apps that the Mac has,

00:15:12   and there's no way for third parties to introduce that.

00:15:14   So basically people are stuck.

00:15:16   It's like why do you have to use a Mac

00:15:17   to record your podcast?

00:15:19   'Cause it's just so much more of a pain on the iPad.

00:15:22   It's so much more limiting on the iPad

00:15:23   and it doesn't have to be.

00:15:25   But so far Apple has not addressed that use case

00:15:27   at the OS level or the hardware level.

00:15:29   And it's a shame 'cause the hardware,

00:15:30   in terms of how strenuous would it be

00:15:33   to stream something over Zoom at the same time

00:15:36   as you're recording it into two different files

00:15:38   and formats that you care about at the same time

00:15:40   as you have a soundboard hooked in or whatever,

00:15:42   the iPad hardware can do that no problem.

00:15:43   It's not just gonna choke on the audio streams.

00:15:45   It would barely break a sweat.

00:15:47   But software support just isn't there.

00:15:50   - I think your analogy of a teenager growing too quickly

00:15:53   is really apt because I feel like,

00:15:56   all of us have said this many times,

00:15:59   so I'm trying not to repeat myself too much here,

00:16:00   but I feel like the foundations of iPadOS,

00:16:03   well, not bad by any stretch of the imagination.

00:16:05   I think the foundation's getting a little creaky

00:16:08   'cause so many things have been bolted onto the side of it.

00:16:12   I cannot tell you the amount of times that I'm browsing in Safari and I go to do a right-to-left

00:16:17   swipe.

00:16:18   What is that, going forward again?

00:16:20   I was going to be going forward on Safari.

00:16:22   And next thing I know, I have a slide-over app coming in from the right-hand side of

00:16:25   the screen, which is arguably the gesture that the iPad thinks I want, but it is certainly

00:16:31   not the gesture I actually want.

00:16:34   And because there's no real equivalent for a mouse, you know, again, the trackpad on

00:16:39   the magic keyboard notwithstanding, you can't assume that there's always a mouse connected.

00:16:43   And so all these things have to be done with gestures, but there's only so many ways to

00:16:47   gesture on a single rectangular screen.

00:16:49   And I just feel like I hear what you're saying, and I agree with you about doing audio production

00:16:55   on an iPad, but thinking about how to manage microphones and connectivity and the thought

00:17:02   of doing something like with loopback, which presumably wouldn't be possible where you're

00:17:06   creating virtual microphones and things like that. The thought of managing all that in

00:17:10   iPadOS makes me want to cry, whereas managing that macOS is mostly okay. And it makes me

00:17:16   want to cry both as a user and a developer. Like, putting myself in Apple shoes, like,

00:17:20   how do you manage that? Like, what is a not-crummy user interface for that? Especially since

00:17:25   an iPad is supposed to go from a completely casual user to a completely casual user, like

00:17:31   my grandmother to Federico Vittucci. You know, like it's supposed to span that whole range.

00:17:37   And it's actually in some ways the same problem that Swift is running into. And that Swift

00:17:41   fancies itself being able to be a learning language and being able to be like a firmware

00:17:46   low level language. But that is such a wide swath of problems to solve. And there's so

00:17:52   many trade-offs involved that someone's getting screwed no matter how you slice it. There's

00:17:56   really a tweet that you retweeted from not underscore David Smith, the Apple employee

00:18:00   David Smith that talks about this, if I can find it,

00:18:02   I'll put it in the show notes.

00:18:03   But anyway, it's just so much to ask the iPad to do,

00:18:05   and I agree, like hardware-wise, it's not a problem,

00:18:08   but software-wise, it is so much that I don't,

00:18:11   I just, I can't fathom, this is why I don't work at Apple,

00:18:13   I can't fathom how to make that livable.

00:18:17   - Well, and I think it covers the, like,

00:18:18   the simpler end of the spectrum of needs.

00:18:21   Like, you know, like our, the old example of like,

00:18:23   oh, I have this non-technical friend or relative,

00:18:25   and they have an iPad, and they love it,

00:18:27   and it's their only computer,

00:18:28   and it's freeing them to do whatever, like,

00:18:30   That's real and that's big.

00:18:32   And I would say that's probably the majority of the iPad usage

00:18:36   that I see in the, quote, "real world."

00:18:39   Anecdotally, when I see who's using iPads around me

00:18:42   or outside of my immediate tech bubble.

00:18:45   And it's not nerds.

00:18:48   It's usually people for whom that

00:18:50   is their primary computing device, maybe

00:18:52   secondary to their phone.

00:18:54   But it's people who don't use a laptop or desktop computer

00:18:59   routinely.

00:19:00   that is their laptop or desktop computer.

00:19:02   And for that role, it does very, very well,

00:19:05   and it has for a decade.

00:19:07   That's great.

00:19:08   It's how you get the higher end of usage.

00:19:12   Most iPad Pros that I see were bought

00:19:16   because at the time they were sold,

00:19:19   they were the biggest iPad.

00:19:21   They still are.

00:19:22   So it was bought more for size or for one

00:19:25   of their hardware capabilities like the pencil support

00:19:29   or something like that, rather than I need this

00:19:32   to be really fast and to have a Thunderbolt port

00:19:34   and plug in my mixer or whatever, I see that way less.

00:19:38   And maybe that's just the people I'm hanging out with,

00:19:40   or the people that I hear from or whatever.

00:19:42   But it seems like, I mean the iPad, even for me,

00:19:45   its entire existence, the iPad has always covered

00:19:48   the simpler end of needs very, very well,

00:19:52   in many ways better than desktop and laptop computers do.

00:19:57   But it's like how do you broaden that

00:20:00   to cover more productivity needs, high end needs,

00:20:04   and they've tried a bunch of different things

00:20:06   I think with mixed success.

00:20:08   Some of the areas that they have gone in the pro direction

00:20:12   they've done very well in, but it seems like there's,

00:20:16   if I can characterize it, it always kind of feels like

00:20:18   in my mind kind of like a city of very tall skyscrapers.

00:20:21   And it's like you have all these,

00:20:24   A skyscraper is basically like a very tall walled garden.

00:20:28   If you're in one of these use cases,

00:20:30   the sky's the limit, you can go great,

00:20:32   but as soon as you try to step out of it a little bit,

00:20:34   or if your needs are not quite in the square peg hole

00:20:38   or whatever, I know I'm mixing a lot of metaphors here,

00:20:41   forgive me, I'm tired, but if your needs fall

00:20:46   a little bit out of the norm, or out of what Apple considered

00:20:50   or designed for, you hit a wall.

00:20:52   You just can't do that on the iPad.

00:20:55   Or jumping over that wall is a ridiculous amount of effort

00:20:59   that really would take a Federico or somebody on that level

00:21:04   to actually overcome.

00:21:06   And it's that characteristic of the kinds of barriers

00:21:11   you run into on iPad OS and how hard you hit them

00:21:16   and how few options you often have to go around them.

00:21:19   That, I think, is where people run into so much trouble

00:21:23   and frustration trying to get it to do

00:21:26   slightly out of bounds things.

00:21:29   - I think Apple's close though.

00:21:31   They're creeping up on it.

00:21:32   They haven't found it yet,

00:21:33   mostly because they're resisting the urge

00:21:34   to just put Windows on it, not like,

00:21:36   mess off Windows, but like,

00:21:38   the actual interface element of Windows.

00:21:39   But just to give people an example of like,

00:21:41   what we're all doing on our Macs as we speak here now,

00:21:44   like when we never record a podcast,

00:21:47   We've got our show notes open.

00:21:49   It's a Google Doc, so it's in a web browser, and it's in a tab.

00:21:52   We've got something recording our audio.

00:21:54   For me, it's Audio Hijack, which is recording my audio.

00:21:57   And it's sometimes into multiple files,

00:21:59   depending on how we care.

00:22:00   It lets you either record a single file or multiple files

00:22:02   with different tracks or all sorts of stuff like that.

00:22:04   Of course, we're running Zoom.

00:22:05   It's what we're using for the live--

00:22:07   not live stream, but that's what goes on to the live stream,

00:22:09   is our Zoom conversation, because it has a higher

00:22:11   quality than Skype.

00:22:14   We're also in the chat room that we refer to.

00:22:16   it's an IRC channel and we have an IRC client

00:22:19   that we're running on our screens.

00:22:21   And then if we ever go to a link or something,

00:22:23   we say, hey, check out this link,

00:22:24   and we'll open another browser tab or another browser window

00:22:26   to look at the link we're discussing.

00:22:28   Or if I say I put something into Slack,

00:22:30   then we hop over to Slack and see that.

00:22:31   But in general, on the screen at the same time,

00:22:33   we're able to see audio recording, our show notes,

00:22:35   maybe a webpage, an IRC.

00:22:37   Already, we've pushed past the limits

00:22:39   of what you can reasonably do on even the biggest iPad,

00:22:41   not because of the hardware limitations.

00:22:43   It's a 13-inch screen,

00:22:44   the power of the system on a chip is entirely there.

00:22:46   all those capabilities are there.

00:22:48   But just because the iPad is like, no, you can't,

00:22:50   I'm sorry, you can't do that many things at once.

00:22:52   And honestly, it's not that many things, right?

00:22:55   It's a webpage, a tiny window with an IRC channel,

00:22:58   and we can look at our levels in the little recorder.

00:23:00   I don't even really need to look at the Zoom window,

00:23:01   although I do like to have it there,

00:23:02   but I can hit the little mute button

00:23:03   that's on the Zoom thing when I call for whatever, right?

00:23:06   This is not like, oh, I need system hacks and extensions,

00:23:10   and like loopback is not involved.

00:23:13   Now granted, AudioHijack that we're using to record

00:23:15   does have a system extension thing that lets it do that,

00:23:17   but this is why Apple should build this into the US.

00:23:19   What does Apple need to do this on the iPad?

00:23:20   They need a system level service where it says,

00:23:22   "Hey, do you want raw access to the audio streams

00:23:24   "flying through iOS?

00:23:26   "Here is a public API for you to use."

00:23:28   You know, maybe rogue amoeba wouldn't jump on it

00:23:30   because they really hate Apple's usual limitations,

00:23:33   but if they just made the thing for that,

00:23:34   third parties will fill that gap.

00:23:36   We have a choice of IRC client.

00:23:38   We have a choice of what we wanna use for our communication.

00:23:40   We use Skype, now we're using Zoom.

00:23:43   Choice of web browser, Google Docs,

00:23:44   other type of document, those choices exist

00:23:47   on iPad OS and on iOS.

00:23:49   The only thing that doesn't exist is,

00:23:50   hey, hardware that's totally capable of doing this,

00:23:53   can I sort of do all those things at once?

00:23:55   It's like, yeah, I hope you like swiping.

00:23:57   (laughing)

00:23:59   It's not, they're so close, right?

00:24:02   And again, we're not asking for,

00:24:04   I need command line access and no sandboxing

00:24:06   and total free for all.

00:24:07   No, you didn't, like, to do what we're doing now,

00:24:10   the iPad is very close to allowing that,

00:24:12   but it's far enough away that it's really annoying

00:24:15   to do that, so much so that when any of our podcaster

00:24:18   friends need to record a podcast,

00:24:20   they usually turn to a Mac to do it.

00:24:22   - I'm not sure we're as close as you think we are,

00:24:25   because on the Mac, you just mentioned,

00:24:29   many of us use AudioHijack.

00:24:31   AudioHijack relies on a system extension, as you said,

00:24:35   and you just can't do that on iOS.

00:24:38   There's lots of security and policy,

00:24:41   App Store policy reasons why you just can't do anything

00:24:44   like that on iOS.

00:24:45   And that's the kind of thing, like I can't see Apple

00:24:48   ever adding that on iOS.

00:24:49   'Cause if you think about, not only would you need

00:24:52   some kind of, again, Apple approved method of controlling

00:24:56   and intercepting the audio of other apps,

00:25:00   which I know they have Audio Bus,

00:25:02   that's a very different thing.

00:25:03   This is like, apps that have not opted into this system

00:25:07   can have their audio captured or rerouted by this program.

00:25:11   there's no way Apple would ever allow that on iOS.

00:25:14   If Apple made any new system,

00:25:15   any new platform Apple makes from now and in the future,

00:25:18   we'll never allow something like that to be done by apps.

00:25:21   - I don't know that they would never do it,

00:25:22   because I feel like if it's a sort of opt-in dual handshake,

00:25:26   you know, the two applications have to mutually agree

00:25:29   that they allow it to happen.

00:25:30   Like, the only way you can do this right

00:25:32   is at the OS level, 'cause you're never gonna allow

00:25:34   it a system extension like they do on the Mac,

00:25:36   so Apple has to do it,

00:25:37   and Apple can do it in a way that's secure.

00:25:40   - Oh, they could, yeah.

00:25:41   I mean, it could be very similar to,

00:25:43   like, you know, the Mac permission dialogues that say,

00:25:45   like, do you wanna allow this app to control your screen?

00:25:47   - Please, make it better than that.

00:25:49   - Well, yeah, that's true.

00:25:51   - We can do so much better.

00:25:52   But I'm saying, like, make it have dual handshake.

00:25:53   Not only does one app have to request it,

00:25:55   but then the other have to receive it,

00:25:56   just make a better UI to that.

00:25:58   Like, by all means, it can be as sort of,

00:26:01   it can be, technically, it can be as cumbersome as you want.

00:26:03   I'm just arguing for less cumbersome.

00:26:04   But the number of steps required can be the same.

00:26:07   you know, two way handshake, double confirmation,

00:26:10   explicit connection between two apps,

00:26:12   because for our situation,

00:26:13   it's not like we need arbitrary apps every week.

00:26:15   We know the apps that are gonna be involved,

00:26:17   and if we change our mind and use a different thing,

00:26:19   we'll just re-handshake those.

00:26:20   Like, this is all possible.

00:26:23   And the main thing I was trying to get at is,

00:26:25   it's nice to be able to see all these things at once.

00:26:27   And even on a 13-inch screen,

00:26:28   even if you have to make the windows small,

00:26:29   just talking to Jason in Slack

00:26:31   'cause he's listening to this thing live,

00:26:33   my IRC window for looking at the chat room is tiny.

00:26:36   Even on my XDR, I could make it a lot bigger, but I don't.

00:26:38   Like, I don't need to see thousands of lines of everything.

00:26:41   Same thing with the show notes.

00:26:42   I don't need to see the entire document.

00:26:44   It's way too long for that.

00:26:45   I just need to see a little bit.

00:26:46   And for the audio hijack,

00:26:48   I make the window as small as I can.

00:26:49   I wish I could make it smaller.

00:26:50   I think I complained to Paul about that one,

00:26:52   but I wish I could make my audio hijack window smaller

00:26:54   'cause I just want to see the levels meter

00:26:56   and see that it's recording

00:26:57   and maybe see the time, right?

00:26:59   This fits on a 13-inch screen,

00:27:01   provided you can use the amazing technology

00:27:04   that we call lowercase w windows, iPad OS isn't there yet.

00:27:08   I'm not saying it necessarily needs to go there,

00:27:10   but the current system of slidey things

00:27:13   plus maybe a floater here and there

00:27:15   is not adequate for being able to do this.

00:27:18   And then, like I said, and then there's a thing of like,

00:27:19   oh, I wanna look at a webpage.

00:27:21   Now do I lose everything?

00:27:22   How do I get back to it?

00:27:23   I don't know how close we are,

00:27:25   'cause like Casey said, you know, what is the solution?

00:27:27   It's not super obvious.

00:27:28   I'm like, you should do exactly this thing.

00:27:29   You'll make everybody happy.

00:27:30   That's not clear, because unless your answer

00:27:32   is just make it like a Mac,

00:27:33   in which case, why even have the iPad exist?

00:27:35   I don't say, just make it like a Mac.

00:27:37   We've got Macs for that.

00:27:38   But I think there is a way to get from where we are now

00:27:41   to something closer to the capabilities

00:27:44   of a low-end small Mac.

00:27:45   Well, I don't know.

00:27:46   I mean, maybe the way it is now with all these limitations

00:27:49   is the best balance.

00:27:51   Because the answer to many of these things

00:27:53   is, well, if you need to do that,

00:27:54   I guess you should just get a Mac.

00:27:55   You're right.

00:27:56   That is kind of a crappy answer to give somebody.

00:27:58   But what if that's true?

00:28:01   All of the reasons why people love iPads,

00:28:05   many of those depend on the extreme software limitations

00:28:10   that it has.

00:28:11   I think what we've seen with iPad multitasking

00:28:15   over the years is it's been a really bumpy road,

00:28:20   trying to expand the iPad software capabilities

00:28:24   into something that works more like a laptop

00:28:26   in those kind of more power usury ways.

00:28:30   We're trying to keep the iPad exactly as great as it is.

00:28:34   We're trying to lose none of the greatness,

00:28:35   none of the simplicity, but add, somehow, add complexity

00:28:39   without losing any of the simplicity.

00:28:41   And I think what we've seen over the history

00:28:43   of multitasking so far is that it basically

00:28:45   has failed at doing that.

00:28:46   That iPad multitasking, I think, has largely been a failure

00:28:50   in the sense that it hasn't been very easy

00:28:54   for people to figure out, and it has made the simplicity

00:28:58   of the iPad less so and less successful.

00:29:01   Because many people accidentally invoke multitasking gestures

00:29:04   and they can't figure out how to fix them

00:29:06   and stuff like that.

00:29:07   So right before the iPad came out,

00:29:10   there were heavy rumors that Apple was doing a tablet.

00:29:13   Tablets were like the cool thing at that moment.

00:29:15   That was like the hot thing and everyone

00:29:16   took a tablet to the future.

00:29:18   But nerds like us were writing blog posts and stuff saying,

00:29:21   OK, tablets are interesting maybe,

00:29:22   but how are we going to solve the text input problem?

00:29:26   Tablets historically, the few that had come out before that,

00:29:29   they always kind of had weird, not very good text input.

00:29:33   And there's not really a good way

00:29:35   to have a physical keyboard with a tablet

00:29:37   and just make some giant flip around thing.

00:29:39   And well, onscreen keyboards or handwriting recognition

00:29:43   or voice control or something, those are all possibilities,

00:29:45   but they all have very strong limitations.

00:29:47   And when Apple was rumored to be making a tablet,

00:29:49   everyone's like, oh, this is going to be great.

00:29:51   And everyone kind of thought that somehow they

00:29:53   They would have some idea that would somehow

00:29:56   break through that input, that text input barrier,

00:29:59   and would somehow be amazing.

00:30:02   And the iPad came out and it just didn't.

00:30:05   It didn't break through the text input barrier.

00:30:07   It just supported whatever awkward method you wanted to use

00:30:10   and figure, well, we'll kick this can down the road

00:30:13   and see if we ever come up with anything better,

00:30:14   but for now we're just gonna stick with the weird balance

00:30:17   of options we have and you're gonna find ways

00:30:19   that you love this thing anyway.

00:30:21   Maybe that's what multitasking is,

00:30:22   And maybe that's what a lot of this pro feature wanting

00:30:25   will end up being, where we keep thinking,

00:30:28   oh, they have to somehow figure out a way

00:30:29   to keep every bit of the simplicity and security

00:30:34   and all that stuff, and yet somehow add all this power

00:30:37   to it.

00:30:38   And maybe the answer is they can't do that,

00:30:40   and they shouldn't do that.

00:30:42   Maybe the answer is if you actually

00:30:44   want to do those more powerful things,

00:30:47   the Mac is probably what you should be using.

00:30:50   - I think it's definitely possible.

00:30:52   because they're so close.

00:30:52   Like I agree with you that they screwed it up.

00:30:54   Like I think they tried too hard to be different and simple

00:30:58   and in the end made something

00:30:59   that's actually more complicated in terms of the multitasking.

00:31:01   We've discussed this a lot in the past.

00:31:03   It's mostly because they didn't want

00:31:04   to just do the obvious thing.

00:31:06   But I think, speaking of text input,

00:31:09   sometimes the obvious thing is pointing you

00:31:11   in the right direction.

00:31:12   Eventually they did just make a flippy keyboard

00:31:14   and you know what, people loved it.

00:31:15   Like that's the obvious solution.

00:31:16   Hey, how did we deal with text input?

00:31:17   What if I had a keyboard attached?

00:31:18   Oh, I don't want a keyboard attached

00:31:19   that makes it more like a laptop, a weird floppy,

00:31:21   People love it, right?

00:31:23   Cursor support, how long did they fight against,

00:31:25   no, there's no cursor on the iPad,

00:31:26   what are you talking about?

00:31:27   It's direct manipulation,

00:31:28   as discussed on previous episodes, right?

00:31:31   That touched on my finger, there's no cursor.

00:31:32   They added cursor support.

00:31:33   They did it in an iPad-y way, and people love it.

00:31:36   And cursor support and keyboard support

00:31:38   does not take away from the simplicity of the iPad.

00:31:41   If you give someone an iPad without a keyboard,

00:31:43   they'll never need to know about cursor support,

00:31:45   they'll never need to deal with a floppy keyboard,

00:31:46   they'll just use the onscreen thing.

00:31:48   Like, I think it is possible.

00:31:49   Again, we're not saying you have to be able

00:31:51   to do everything you do on a Mac Pro, on an iPad.

00:31:53   We're just saying, can we get close to the use cases

00:31:56   that would fit on like a MacBook Air?

00:31:58   And I think we can, Apple just hasn't yet.

00:32:01   And there are lots of barriers,

00:32:02   as Jason's pointing out in the chat room here,

00:32:04   he's the fourth member of the show this week.

00:32:07   Some of the stuff that Apple is doing,

00:32:08   like with the quick notes and the floating windows, right?

00:32:11   It's like, oh, those might be useful elements,

00:32:14   but they're only Apple and third parties can't add them,

00:32:16   or they're very limited,

00:32:18   or Apple only wants you to float certain things.

00:32:19   I saw it recently, somebody had like,

00:32:21   they turned sort of basically the now playing widget

00:32:23   into a floating thing.

00:32:24   Like they made like a video player app

00:32:26   that shows a now playing interface on it or whatever.

00:32:28   Because they just wanted to have a floating thing

00:32:30   that showed the currently playing music

00:32:31   so they could have like a window on screen all the time

00:32:33   with their music controls on it.

00:32:35   I'm surprised they didn't get rejected from the app store

00:32:37   saying no, uh-uh, that's only supposed to be

00:32:39   for playing video.

00:32:40   I don't want you cheating with the playing videos.

00:32:41   You can show useful thing like music controls.

00:32:44   I guess you gotta get one of those dongles.

00:32:46   - I'm shocked that was allowed by the way.

00:32:47   It's totally fine.

00:32:48   It's probably torn down from the store by the time

00:32:50   this episode's released, but what Apple wants you to do,

00:32:52   I guess, is buy that dongle from Hyper

00:32:54   with the physical media buttons on it or something.

00:32:57   Like, I think we're close,

00:32:59   and I don't think it's unplausible.

00:33:01   I think you can add this functionality

00:33:02   without making the iPad more complicated.

00:33:04   Again, we're not saying you need command line,

00:33:06   root access, kernel extensions, complete,

00:33:09   like, you know, any of that.

00:33:10   - Wait, hold on, by the way, you do need command line.

00:33:12   It can just be in its own little sandbox,

00:33:14   but command line is actually really nice

00:33:16   and really important to lots of people.

00:33:18   You know what I mean, like non-CH rooted, like sandbox,

00:33:21   you know, complete, like you don't need all that stuff.

00:33:23   You can, to get back to the Perl thing

00:33:25   that I think I quoted last week,

00:33:26   make easy things easy and make hard things possible, right?

00:33:29   And we're not saying make hard things

00:33:30   like as easy as they are on the Mac.

00:33:32   The Mac makes lots of easy things kind of hard

00:33:35   and it makes really hard things possible.

00:33:37   I don't know, like if you draw a little overlapping thing,

00:33:39   the iPad expands from very, very simple

00:33:42   up to about the amount of complexity

00:33:44   that you'd have managed to tackle on a small Mac laptop.

00:33:47   This is setting aside my continued hobby horse

00:33:50   of like the drafting table iPad that's the size of an XDR

00:33:53   but lays down on your table, in which case at that point

00:33:55   maybe you should make hard things not just possible

00:33:58   but extremely, extremely possible.

00:34:00   Anyway, this is supposed to be followed by it

00:34:02   and we went off on a long iPad tangent.

00:34:04   But I think we are, I think Apple is traveling down

00:34:07   this road, they're just going more slowly than we'd all like.

00:34:09   - All right, two things, that drafting table thing

00:34:11   would ruin your neck and back.

00:34:12   And secondly, is there a way to disable quick note

00:34:15   on the Mac?

00:34:15   Why would it ruin your neck and back drafting tables are not a new technology?

00:34:19   They've existed for like literally centuries, and I don't think they're ergonomically perfect

00:34:24   But they're not so terrible or at least not any more

00:34:26   Terrible than using a mouse and a keyboard centuries of humans did tons of work for hours and hours monks are illuminating

00:34:32   Manuscripts at drafting table type things. I don't think they're ergonomically that terrible you can have a bad one

00:34:37   You can have a good one, but mice and keyboards probably cause more widespread RSI than

00:34:42   monks at drafting tables ever experienced I

00:34:45   I... buy maybe like cumulative total but I don't think per capita.

00:34:50   Per capita? I don't know.

00:34:52   All I'm saying is it's not ridiculous. You can have a drafting table type setup that is really...

00:34:56   especially if you're doing like fine art types things.

00:34:58   Like the artists choose to work on, you know, an easel and not like, you know, direct manipulation of what's on their canvas.

00:35:05   You know, easel is kind of slanted. Like the whole point of a drafting table type setup, kind of like the Microsoft one,

00:35:09   is you can sort of choose the angle and position you have to find a setup that works for you.

00:35:12   you could be standing or sitting.

00:35:13   It's not-- again, it can--

00:35:16   if you just chucked it on someone's computer desk,

00:35:19   maybe it wouldn't fit right.

00:35:20   But like any new sort of ergonomic setup,

00:35:24   you'll have to adjust to it, just like people

00:35:26   had to adjust to standing desks.

00:35:28   How should they work?

00:35:28   Where should the keyboard and mouse be?

00:35:30   Where should the monitor be when I'm at my standing desk

00:35:32   versus my sitting desk?

00:35:33   I think it could work.

00:35:34   By the way, quick real-time follow-up from nonrevguy

00:35:37   in the chat.

00:35:37   You can disable Quick Note on the Mac.

00:35:39   It's apparently just implemented as a hot corner.

00:35:42   If you go into System Preferences, Desktop,

00:35:43   and Screensaver, go to Hot Corners,

00:35:45   it just pre-set as the bottom right corner.

00:35:48   And so you can just turn that off.

00:35:49   - I've forgotten it was on the Mac,

00:35:51   because I have never seen it.

00:35:52   I would have disabled it immediately if it did.

00:35:54   - Yeah, it keeps popping up whenever I hit that corner

00:35:57   with the mouse.

00:35:57   - Which corner is it by default?

00:35:59   - Bottom right, yeah.

00:36:00   - Yeah, no, I've already got that set to something.

00:36:01   - Yep, same.

00:36:02   - Oh, okay, yeah, see mine was just nothing,

00:36:03   so maybe it overwrote it if it was nothing.

00:36:06   But yeah, I'm very happy to lose that feature.

00:36:09   - Lower right should be Show Desktop.

00:36:10   It's really handy, everybody, try it.

00:36:13   - No, it's not your desktop, it's turn your monitors off.

00:36:15   - No, it's upper right because any old school Mac user

00:36:18   knows upper right is activated after dark

00:36:20   or whatever your screen saver is.

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00:38:11   - Very quickly before we leave the iPad topic,

00:38:17   I would like to say, 'cause I feel like this may come

00:38:21   across negative if you're not really listening

00:38:23   to what we're saying, but all three of us

00:38:25   are really enthusiastic about the future of the iPad

00:38:27   and how it could end up so much better,

00:38:31   I think the two of us at least,

00:38:33   in that it could be a really phenomenal computing platform.

00:38:37   I mean, it is already a phenomenal computing platform.

00:38:39   And I would hope and I would encourage the listener

00:38:42   to realize that we're not,

00:38:44   I mean, it may sound like we're complaining,

00:38:46   but I actually don't think we are.

00:38:47   We're trying to figure out a way to make it better

00:38:50   because it's so great and it has so much potential.

00:38:53   And I'd also like to quickly point out

00:38:55   that I have not bought an iPad

00:38:57   since when Michaela was barely like six or seven months old.

00:39:01   'Cause the last iPad I bought was the iPad Pro

00:39:06   from 2018 with the new form Apple Pencil at the time

00:39:10   and so on and so forth.

00:39:11   - Yeah, the first 11 inch with USB-C.

00:39:14   That's the same one I'm using still.

00:39:15   - Yeah, and it still runs great.

00:39:18   It's running better three years on

00:39:19   than I think any other iPad I've ever owned.

00:39:22   And although in a perfect world I'd love to upgrade it,

00:39:26   I don't have any pressing need to upgrade it.

00:39:28   And a lot of people, particularly those

00:39:30   who don't particularly care for Apple,

00:39:32   really like to say that Apple believes

00:39:34   in planned obsolescence and they deliberately

00:39:35   make everything run like crap so you get new stuff and who knows maybe that's

00:39:39   true but I don't think it is and this you know three almost four-year-old iPad

00:39:43   is running great to this day I still use it all the time well yeah me too and

00:39:47   well I don't I don't use it much anymore ever since I did the upstairs laptop but

00:39:50   it's I really enjoyed for many many years having that just always in the

00:39:57   kitchen and ready to go and the problem is like you know as we talked about like

00:40:01   The hardware is so over provisioned.

00:40:04   The reason I bought the iPad Pro was I wanted

00:40:09   the pencil support for doodling and stuff

00:40:11   and diagramming for quick things.

00:40:13   And I wanted a really good four speaker system.

00:40:16   I couldn't care less how fast it is

00:40:18   because what I do on the iPad Pro is play podcasts

00:40:22   and type into Apple Notes when I remember

00:40:24   I need something on my shopping list.

00:40:26   Like oh, next time I go to the store,

00:40:27   better get more milk, I'll go to my iPad,

00:40:29   type that in and add it to my list.

00:40:31   Like that's the kind of usage I have.

00:40:33   And that's why I can use one from 2018

00:40:36   and it doesn't even feel slow.

00:40:38   The battery's not what it used to be anymore,

00:40:40   but I can plug it in frequently anyway and that's fine.

00:40:43   And frankly though, my usage of it has gone down so much

00:40:47   since I decided to just have a laptop in that role

00:40:50   that I don't know if I would replace it if it broke.

00:40:55   Or I certainly, if I were to replace it,

00:40:59   I would replace it with probably an iPad Air,

00:41:02   maybe even the base model if it uses USB-C by then.

00:41:06   I don't need that advancement.

00:41:07   And I think that's been a problem for the iPad

00:41:09   since day one of like what most people do with it

00:41:13   is pretty computationally easy.

00:41:16   And so there really hasn't been a lot of drive

00:41:19   for people to upgrade their iPads unless it changed

00:41:21   some other factor or unless their old one broke.

00:41:24   I think the, I'm very optimistic that the iPad

00:41:27   has a clear future, but I think the iPad's future

00:41:32   is largely going to be what the present is.

00:41:35   I don't see it expanding significantly from where it is now

00:41:39   because I don't see that as being the right tool

00:41:42   for the job, for the jobs that it currently, today,

00:41:45   doesn't do well or doesn't do easily.

00:41:48   That's where, like I see it being a very good product line

00:41:53   for the indefinite future,

00:41:55   but not a particularly expanding one.

00:41:58   - Yeah.

00:41:59   All right, so let's go back to follow up.

00:42:02   How long is that?

00:42:03   - 40 minutes later.

00:42:04   - Good grief.

00:42:06   All right, moving right along or something like that.

00:42:09   We were talking about,

00:42:10   I think this was in the context of John, your son,

00:42:13   doing a development in writing his own apps.

00:42:16   We were talking about setting up an Apple Watch

00:42:18   for development, which is everyone's favorite thing

00:42:20   to see in Xcode.

00:42:21   Marco and I immediately said, "Oh, reboot everything."

00:42:24   But Andy Norman pointed out,

00:42:25   make sure you've looked at the watch

00:42:27   and noticed if it's asking to trust the Mac.

00:42:30   It took me a couple of attempts before I noticed that.

00:42:32   I didn't realize that was something

00:42:33   that could interrupt this whole process.

00:42:34   I'm gonna have to pay close attention now.

00:42:36   - Oh, that's the worst.

00:42:38   Because if you, okay, so when the first time

00:42:40   that you connect a watch to,

00:42:42   or the first time you plug in your phone

00:42:45   in development mode with a watch paired to it,

00:42:48   and I think it resets every major OS version,

00:42:50   and of course, if you restore either device,

00:42:53   the first time on the phone it will say trust this computer

00:42:56   and you gotta hit trust and enter your passcode.

00:42:58   It'll do the same thing on the watch

00:43:01   if there's a watch paired to that phone.

00:43:03   And if you either miss that or if you dismiss that dialogue,

00:43:08   it won't show again until I think you reboot

00:43:11   at least the watch, if not both devices.

00:43:14   And if you miss that, this is correct.

00:43:17   Everything will just not work

00:43:19   and it's kind of hard to figure out why.

00:43:23   - Yeah, it'll just spin and it will not tell you

00:43:26   why it's failing.

00:43:27   In the case of my son's thing,

00:43:28   it stopped him from deploying to his iPhone.

00:43:31   He couldn't deploy his app to his iPhone.

00:43:33   He said, "Oh, I'll deploy it to your iPhone

00:43:34   just as soon as I get his watch set up."

00:43:36   And it would just never finish.

00:43:37   And so yeah, we had the process of rebooting

00:43:39   and trying everything again.

00:43:39   Eventually we saw that dialogue.

00:43:41   I forgot to mention last week.

00:43:42   I just didn't want people to get stuck

00:43:43   and not understand why they couldn't progress.

00:43:45   Reboot everything, try again, make sure you watch.

00:43:48   Make sure the watch is close by, that it's charged.

00:43:51   I had him put the watch on his wrist

00:43:52   just because I'm like, maybe it doesn't like

00:43:53   being on the charger.

00:43:54   I was trying to do everything to say,

00:43:56   everybody's cool, we're all near each other,

00:43:58   we're starting this whole thing over,

00:44:00   and then you have to watch for that little thing to pop up

00:44:02   and then make sure you tap the right thing on it.

00:44:05   - Indeed.

00:44:06   We got some recommendations for slideshow apps

00:44:09   to fix Marco's problems.

00:44:10   All of them will go away if you just use the right app.

00:44:12   Right, Marco?

00:44:13   - Yeah, and I've been keeping track of them

00:44:16   and of what people have said.

00:44:17   I've shown Tiff a few of the options.

00:44:19   So basically, by far the most recommended option is an app called PhotoMagico, which

00:44:26   you're probably going to try out when we make the next slideshow.

00:44:29   A few other people recommended that we just use iMovie or Final Cut Pro.

00:44:34   The reason why I think we didn't jump to that, and I should let Tiff talk about this

00:44:37   at some point, but the reason why we didn't jump to that is because iMovie had really

00:44:43   good, or not iMovie, well back in the day maybe, but Photos, you know, previously iPhoto,

00:44:48   has really good templates where you can just kinda

00:44:50   select a whole bunch of photos and just say,

00:44:52   here, just make something using these

00:44:55   and then I'll adjust if I want to.

00:44:57   And it will do things like multiple photos on screen at once

00:45:01   and have them like flip around in custom ways

00:45:03   and blend into each other but like in like a tile arrangement

00:45:07   or have them appear as though they're in like

00:45:09   one of those flipping photo album books.

00:45:11   So it's that kind of like that kind of wonderful,

00:45:14   friendly consumer template for photo slideshows

00:45:18   that shows more than one photo on screen at once,

00:45:20   that's the kind of thing that's hard to find a replacement

00:45:22   for, at least a good replacement for.

00:45:24   And Photomagico isn't even, I don't even think

00:45:26   does that necessarily, but that seems to be

00:45:28   the highest recommended thing for this.

00:45:31   A few other options people also recommended,

00:45:32   something called Adobe Premiere Rush,

00:45:34   which I haven't tried yet, but we do have the Adobe,

00:45:37   all the crap subscription that we pay absurdly for it,

00:45:41   because it actually makes sense for us to do that

00:45:44   barely for other reasons.

00:45:46   So I will probably try that as well.

00:45:47   So we'll see.

00:45:49   I will follow up next time we have to make one of these.

00:45:51   - I think what you want is what they call motion graphics.

00:45:53   Another, I think, term that comes from the analog age

00:45:55   that is weird, you know, it's like,

00:45:57   oh, you want things to move?

00:45:58   You need motion.

00:45:58   That's why Apple's app was called Motion,

00:46:00   it did motion graphics.

00:46:01   Anyway, I think PhotoMagico does multiple images,

00:46:04   but it maybe doesn't do all the themes and stuff.

00:46:06   When you were saying the images,

00:46:07   looking around it was making me think of two things.

00:46:09   One, iDVD had menus that were like that.

00:46:13   Like, I remember doing a baby thing

00:46:15   where Alex was a baby,

00:46:16   but it was like a mobile, like you put over a baby's crib,

00:46:21   and that was like the menu, but then in the mobile,

00:46:23   you'd have little thumbnails of movies playing.

00:46:26   Like it was a template that you threw in there.

00:46:27   It's basically motion graphics

00:46:29   that look really cool and professional.

00:46:30   The only thing you add to it is your movies

00:46:32   get displayed here and it'll play a little music or whatever.

00:46:34   Same things for slide shows.

00:46:35   And the second thing I made me think of is that

00:46:38   the screen server I use on all of our computers is,

00:46:41   it's called, what is it called, floating?

00:46:43   It's a theme for Apple's show photos from my photos app thing.

00:46:47   I'm going to just pull it up here.

00:46:50   Screensaver, it's a top left screensaver.

00:46:52   It's called floating.

00:46:53   And it shows just a bunch of floating images.

00:46:55   And you can tell it to pull images

00:46:57   from a folder full of images.

00:46:59   Or you can tell it to pick an album from your photo library.

00:47:02   It gets angry when you have hundreds of thousands

00:47:04   of photos in your photo library.

00:47:05   But you can eventually hook it up.

00:47:08   Of course, because Apple doesn't understand families,

00:47:11   the only person who can use that screensaver

00:47:13   connected to the actual photos library is my wife

00:47:16   because she owns the photos library.

00:47:18   But what I've done to work around that is periodically

00:47:20   I just go to the photos library and I do a full export

00:47:23   of all of my favorites into a folder,

00:47:26   redundantly storing them as just a bunch of JPEGs

00:47:28   in a folder and then I point the screensaver at the folder

00:47:31   instead of the library.

00:47:32   But anyway, the reason I bring this up is

00:47:34   this whole screensaver,

00:47:35   the one that shows a bunch of your images,

00:47:37   totally broke in Monterey.

00:47:39   Like Monterey, the original version that was released

00:47:41   12.0 and 12.0.1, this would just show a black screen

00:47:44   and never show an image.

00:47:45   But it was fixed in 12.1, so I'm happy

00:47:47   to have my screens ever back.

00:47:48   It took me, I didn't notice until I read about it

00:47:50   on the internet because I also have my screen

00:47:52   like go to sleep sleep.

00:47:53   It's like, you know, if you leave my computer idle

00:47:55   or you lock the screen by chucking your cursor

00:47:57   to the upper right corner, it's supposed to turn

00:47:59   on the screensaver, but then shortly afterward

00:48:01   it will go totally black and turn off the monitor.

00:48:03   So I never even noticed it was broken.

00:48:06   I should have thought, you know, you haven't seen

00:48:08   the screensaver run in a while, 'cause normally

00:48:09   you chuck the cursor and you just leave

00:48:11   and by the time I come back the screen's black,

00:48:12   I'm like oh it probably went to sleep, right?

00:48:14   But no, it was just totally broken.

00:48:15   It was some, maybe some weird OpenGL thing,

00:48:17   I don't even know.

00:48:18   Anyway, it's fixed now.

00:48:20   And that reminded me of what you were thinking of,

00:48:21   which is like, I have a bunch of images,

00:48:23   and I wanna show them in some cool way

00:48:26   as like a bunch of photographs that are being thrown

00:48:27   onto like a virtual table or as tiles that flip around

00:48:31   or as floating things, and the screen server

00:48:33   has many different versions of that.

00:48:35   I wonder if these are all like Quartz Composer things,

00:48:37   that's why they can't port them,

00:48:38   but it seems like Apple somewhere--

00:48:40   - Oh, interesting.

00:48:40   the very least has a lot of these themes already done it's just they may be in

00:48:44   some legacy technology that they can't easily port to iMovie or photos or

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00:50:44   (upbeat music)

00:50:47   - Canon's flagship DSLR line will end with the EOS 1D X, 10,

00:50:53   Mark 3, eventually, maybe.

00:50:57   - I'm gonna say EOS, not EOS.

00:50:59   - Sorry, this is not my world.

00:51:01   - You don't know about Canon EOS?

00:51:02   They had a big marketing campaign when you were a teenager.

00:51:04   - Okay.

00:51:05   - Because obviously we would have been paying attention

00:51:07   to that then.

00:51:07   - Yeah, exactly.

00:51:08   - Yeah, totally were a canios.

00:51:09   Anyway, I just brought this up just because I think

00:51:11   we talked about it on a past show of like,

00:51:12   and I think a lot of people are confused.

00:51:14   I think I pointed this out once before.

00:51:16   I think when we were talking about like,

00:51:17   oh, Casey was told the story about being in Disneyland

00:51:20   and all the photographers have a fancy DSLR

00:51:23   they take your pictures of and I was like,

00:51:24   well, they have a fancy camera,

00:51:26   maybe not necessarily a DSLR

00:51:27   because DSLRs are kind of old and creaky.

00:51:30   And I think when people hear DSLR,

00:51:31   they think big digital camera,

00:51:34   but that's not what they should think.

00:51:36   SLR doesn't just mean big digital camera.

00:51:39   It means single-end reflex, is that what SLR stands for,

00:51:41   Mark? - Yes.

00:51:42   It is a type of camera.

00:51:44   - Right, and it's got a flappy mirror inside it,

00:51:46   then when you take a picture,

00:51:47   a mirror physically moves out of the way

00:51:49   to allow light to hit the sensor,

00:51:51   and then the mirror flaps back down.

00:51:53   And it is a setup that has mostly been supplanted

00:51:57   by what they call mirrorless cameras,

00:51:59   which are so weird, they're defined by the thing

00:52:00   that they don't have.

00:52:01   mirrorless cameras work like you would imagine

00:52:03   if you just started in the digital ages.

00:52:05   There's a sensor and there's a thing that opens

00:52:08   to let the light hit the sensor

00:52:09   and a thing that closes that stops light.

00:52:10   And by the way, they even have ones

00:52:12   that you can use electronic shutter

00:52:13   where it just stays open all the time

00:52:14   and just use electronics to record the image.

00:52:17   But no more flappy mirror, which has pros and cons,

00:52:21   but in general, the market and the world

00:52:22   has decided that the advantages of mirrorless

00:52:25   far outweigh any disadvantages of you not being able

00:52:28   to look through the lens of your camera

00:52:29   with a prism and all this other crap

00:52:30   that you can do with an SLR, right?

00:52:32   So mirrorless is one, even the standard bearers

00:52:37   for SLRs and DSLRs, Canon and I imagine Nikon will follow,

00:52:42   and I don't think Sony has any SLRs right now,

00:52:45   or if they do, they're very obscure.

00:52:47   The DSLRs are going away,

00:52:50   but that does not mean big digital cameras are going away.

00:52:53   They're just all going to be quote unquote

00:52:54   mirrorless cameras.

00:52:55   So nobody freak out.

00:52:57   It's not as if we're all gonna have to use iPhones

00:52:58   from now on.

00:52:59   interchangeable lens fancy digital cameras rest assured there will be still

00:53:03   be a couple companies willing to sell you some for the price of a car. Well and

00:53:06   keep in mind also like what this item like what this news item actually is

00:53:10   many many people interpreted this to mean Canon is not going to make DSLRs

00:53:15   anymore that's not what this is Canon makes many lines of DSLRs the very very

00:53:22   very top of the line one is the 1DX series that is what they are saying

00:53:28   they're not going to make any more of after this current one.

00:53:31   I think the writing's on the wall for the rest of them, though, too.

00:53:34   It just starts from the top. You can read the quote from the CEO.

00:53:38   "Market needs are rapidly moving towards mirrorless cameras,

00:53:42   so accordingly we're increasingly moving people in that direction."

00:53:45   You're right, it's not a definitive statement, but this is the way the world's going.

00:53:48   And just to describe why mirrorless is winning,

00:53:51   the big giant mirror that flaps up takes up a lot of room.

00:53:55   It's like a little periscope type thing where the light has to go in,

00:53:57   then it has to bounce off the mirror,

00:53:58   then it goes up to the little prism,

00:53:59   then it comes out the little eyepiece,

00:54:01   which lets you essentially look with your eyeball

00:54:02   optically through the lens that is going to take the picture

00:54:05   which has lots of cool advantages to it.

00:54:07   But it takes up a lot of room.

00:54:08   Mirrorless cameras are just smaller

00:54:10   because you don't need room for the mirror.

00:54:12   You don't need to flap the mirror up and down.

00:54:14   You can do shutters, you can do mechanical shutters

00:54:17   much faster and then you can do electronic shutters.

00:54:19   You can't do an electronic shutter

00:54:20   if the mirror's in the way because when the mirror's there

00:54:22   and you're looking through the eyepiece,

00:54:24   the sensor can't see anything

00:54:26   'cause the mirror is blocking it.

00:54:27   And when the mirror flaps up, now your eye can't see

00:54:30   anything, so it's blacked out briefly.

00:54:31   So the mirrorless mode is just this sort of more

00:54:35   straightforward way to get light directly onto the sensor

00:54:39   and it's like, well how do they do the eyepiece?

00:54:41   Well they have a digital thing where you're seeing

00:54:43   a readout from the lens.

00:54:44   Like it's taken a long time for digital cameras

00:54:47   to get close to the performance of DSLR,

00:54:49   but now they're getting in the ballpark,

00:54:51   so the DSLRs are slowly being phased out

00:54:53   just because mirrorless are smaller.

00:54:54   So this doesn't mean they can blink the end of all of them

00:54:58   tomorrow, but it seems this is sort of the company signaling

00:55:02   we're going in the-- kind of like all car makers are going

00:55:04   in the direction of electric.

00:55:05   It's going to be years and years before the internal combustion

00:55:08   cars are gone, but every single car maker has said,

00:55:10   we're kind of planning to go all electric

00:55:12   and they put all these fancy dates.

00:55:13   We'll be all electric by 2030, 2035, 2040.

00:55:16   We'll see if they hit those dates,

00:55:17   but they've all announced plans.

00:55:19   And this is essentially a canon saying, yeah,

00:55:21   the SLRs are probably going away.

00:55:23   - Yeah, and this, because they're acting

00:55:27   like their highest end one,

00:55:29   I mean I'm sure there's many reasons for that.

00:55:31   First of all, I don't think the 1DX series

00:55:34   has been selling in great volume recently.

00:55:36   But also, I'm sure there's much stronger competition

00:55:42   from mirrorless cameras at that segment as well.

00:55:44   But also, the reason this is significant,

00:55:47   even though they didn't mention, for instance,

00:55:51   The 5D series, which is still extremely popular,

00:55:54   although I think that is also,

00:55:56   the writing's on the wall, I think, for that as well.

00:55:59   But that's very popular in different markets.

00:56:00   But the reason this is big news

00:56:03   is that even though Canon's not saying

00:56:06   we're getting rid of all of our DSLRs,

00:56:08   to ax the flagship one and from Canon of all companies,

00:56:12   Canon has probably been the most successful DSLR company

00:56:16   by probably a pretty big margin,

00:56:19   especially at the higher end.

00:56:21   So for them to access is as significant as like,

00:56:25   if BMW said, all M cars from now on

00:56:27   are gonna be all electric.

00:56:29   - Or Ford said they're no longer making cars,

00:56:31   which they said several years ago.

00:56:32   And by that I mean they're just making trucks and SUVs,

00:56:35   which by the way, in case you didn't know,

00:56:36   Ford hasn't made a quote unquote car in what,

00:56:38   three years now?

00:56:39   - Did anybody notice?

00:56:40   - Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

00:56:41   Most people don't realize it.

00:56:42   Hey, Ford, they make like pickup trucks and SUVs, right?

00:56:45   They make cars too, right?

00:56:47   And most people would say yes, and I'd say,

00:56:48   okay, name a 2022 model Ford that's not an SUV or truck.

00:56:52   And you can't because they don't make Mustang.

00:56:55   No, it's not a car.

00:56:56   If you looked at it, it's the Mach-E.

00:56:58   - Isn't that an SUV now?

00:56:59   - No, it's the Mustang Mach-E.

00:57:01   - Isn't it like a crossover?

00:57:02   - I mean, he's talking about like the GT3.

00:57:05   - I'm just being a turd

00:57:06   because your point is completely fair.

00:57:08   - Yeah, I know.

00:57:09   I mean, I think that,

00:57:10   what is the latest model year of the Mustang?

00:57:11   - I think that they're still making them as far as I know.

00:57:13   - Yeah, they make the flat plane crank one.

00:57:15   But the point is that's not a new car

00:57:17   that it was developed for 2022.

00:57:19   It's a car that they developed and they continue to sell.

00:57:21   And I guess they make new model years each year

00:57:23   with different trim levels and stuff like that.

00:57:25   But yeah.

00:57:26   - To go back a step, you know,

00:57:27   I don't think of it as a car, Jon.

00:57:29   I think of it as a horseless carriage.

00:57:31   You know, it's not a, it's a mirrorless camera

00:57:34   and a horseless carriage. - It's a crossover.

00:57:35   They're not station wagons, they're crossovers.

00:57:38   - Indeed.

00:57:39   Also, I would like to slightly real-time follow up

00:57:41   and correct you.

00:57:42   I would not talk about going to Disneyland.

00:57:44   I go to the one real Disney park.

00:57:47   - I know, Disney World, I'm sorry, yes.

00:57:49   I agree with you on this 100%,

00:57:51   even though I've never actually been to Disneyland,

00:57:53   but come on, just look at the maps, people.

00:57:54   - Right?

00:57:55   Disneyland is like 1/100th of Disney World.

00:57:58   I understand it's the OG, it doesn't matter.

00:58:00   - No Epcot, Epcot is unsurprisingly my favorite park.

00:58:04   - Of course, well, I mean, most people,

00:58:06   it's a lot of people's favorite park.

00:58:07   - It's the nerdiest park.

00:58:07   - That's for without doubt.

00:58:09   Anyway, all right, so we should probably try

00:58:12   to squeeze in a topic or two before we jump to Ask ATP.

00:58:15   So, uh, John, you would like to get on your soapbox about new TV stuff at CES.

00:58:19   That soapbox is just exciting news. Um,

00:58:22   I just want to talk too much about this on the show other than me hemming and

00:58:25   hawing about what TV I'm not going to buy. Uh, so I feel bad.

00:58:28   I feel bad that we hadn't talked about this years and years ago.

00:58:32   Cause the story is always podcasting.

00:58:33   This is not like a new, a new technology. Like when I was going,

00:58:38   I was looking for like explainer videos,

00:58:40   figure out I'd have links to the show notes to explain some of this stuff.

00:58:43   and all the explainer videos I've found

00:58:44   were like six years old.

00:58:46   So this is not new technology,

00:58:47   but the news at CES related to television

00:58:49   is that someone has actually shipped the television

00:58:53   with this technology in it,

00:58:54   which we thought was coming

00:58:55   and there's some interesting stuff about who is shipping it.

00:58:57   But anyway, the technology is QD-OLED,

00:59:02   which stands for Quantum Dot OLED,

00:59:05   a brief review of television technologies.

00:59:09   So most people probably have at this point

00:59:11   flat panel LCD televisions which use a technology similar to what is in most of our Mac screens

00:59:17   or computer monitors.

00:59:18   There's a backlight that shines light, usually white light out.

00:59:21   And then there's a bunch of little pixels in front using liquid crystals that have red,

00:59:24   green, and blue sub pixels that turn on and off and allow varying amounts of light through.

00:59:29   So when they're all open, you get red, green, and blue filters with the white backlight

00:59:33   shining through them.

00:59:34   And red, green, and blue combined to your eyes make one white pixel.

00:59:37   you turn the shutters all the way off it tries to block all the backlight light.

00:59:40   The ones in fancier screens like the ones on the Mac on the Pro display XDR and

00:59:46   MacBook Pros and the fancy iPad are called mini LED and what they do is

00:59:50   instead of having one giant white backlight they have a bunch of smaller

00:59:54   white backlights like 2,000 of them and instead of the white backlight being on

00:59:58   all the time it's only on behind the pixels that need to light up so if

01:00:02   you make the screen all black they just turn off all the black lights that gets

01:00:05   you better blacks and if you have some part of the screen that's light and some

01:00:08   part of the screen that's dark they just turn on some of the back lights.

01:00:10   Obviously there's a problem called blooming where the back lights are not

01:00:13   the same size as the pixels so if you have like say a starry night where it's

01:00:17   a black sky with a pinprick of light there's no pinprick backlight so they

01:00:21   have to turn on like a you know one centimeter by one centimeter backlight

01:00:24   behind the pinprick star and that may end the LCD shutters are not that great

01:00:29   at blocking the light so you'll see a little bit of a halo glow around the

01:00:33   light when really you should just see one pinprick of light. But anyway that's

01:00:36   LCD technology. You often see it's described as an LED TV that's just

01:00:40   referring to the backlight. The backlights of these televisions are LEDs

01:00:43   instead of being the cold cathodes of whatever they were before. But it's still

01:00:48   a liquid crystal display on the front controlling the shutters right. So the

01:00:52   best TV technology for many years has been OLED which stands for organic

01:00:55   light emitting diode where there's no backlight. There is no big white light

01:00:59   behind a series of filters instead every single pixel emits its own light and so

01:01:05   you can turn on and off individual pixels our iPhones have OLED screens

01:01:09   right so when you do an iPhone you know and you want to make it a starry night

01:01:13   on the iPhone where it's all black with pinpricks of light all it does is turn

01:01:16   on the individual pixels that are the stars so there's no halo effect on

01:01:19   whatever problems OLED is they can't get as bright because LED backlights can get

01:01:24   super duper bright and then OLEDs have burn-in problems if you do make them

01:01:28   super bright and OLEDs also wear out. It's a bunch of limits of OLEDs but in

01:01:32   general for televisions the best TVs you can get are OLED because it is much much

01:01:36   better on a television to be able to control the individual pixels. It's just

01:01:39   a shame they can't get quite as bright. Televisions is another problem with the

01:01:43   brightness thing is you know if you're looking at it in a well lit room or

01:01:46   whatever you know it has to be brighter than you know a little phone screen or

01:01:51   whatever. So most modern OLED televisions are actually WRGB which is they have RGB

01:01:56   sub-pixels and then they have a big honking white sub-pixel and that's just

01:02:00   to boost the brightness right so they mix in white like an actual white light

01:02:04   with the colors and as you can imagine they can wash them out a lot of it is

01:02:08   there like if you want to make the screen entirely white to use mostly the

01:02:11   white sub pixels but that's called a WRGB OLED and all the best televisions

01:02:15   use that right now the only company in the world that makes a WRGB OLED for

01:02:19   television is LG and they make it for everybody anybody who has an OLED

01:02:22   television as of before CES 2022, that's an LG panel in there. So Sony's television, Panasonic's

01:02:29   television, Philips, like Sharp, they're all LG OLEDs in there. But OLED is the best in town

01:02:37   because you can control the individual pixels but it doesn't get as bright. So finally, QD OLEDs is

01:02:42   let's take OLED TVs, which is the best available thing, and let's fix some of their problems.

01:02:46   Their main problem is they can't get as bright, right? So what can we do to help with that? The

01:02:51   The way OLEDs actually work is they don't have,

01:02:55   you can do this with OLEDs,

01:02:56   but they don't do it for expense reasons.

01:02:57   They don't have a red, green, and a blue sub pixel,

01:03:02   or even a white sub pixel.

01:03:03   What they have are individual pixels that are bigger than,

01:03:08   I think they're bigger than the three red, green, and blues.

01:03:09   But anyway, they have individual pixels

01:03:10   that just emit blue light.

01:03:12   That's what, they're still individually controlled,

01:03:14   but every individual pixel is just blue.

01:03:17   And so how do you get all the colors?

01:03:18   Well, they put filters in front of every pixel.

01:03:22   There's a little green filter, a little red filter,

01:03:23   a little blue filter, and a filter that turns it white,

01:03:25   I guess, I think, yeah,

01:03:27   I think that's basically how they work.

01:03:29   I'm not sure about the white sub-pixel and WRGB,

01:03:30   but anyway, there's filters.

01:03:32   But of course, filters lose you some of the light, right?

01:03:36   You're taking a blue backlight

01:03:37   and you're trying to like, you know,

01:03:39   change it to red, green, and blue.

01:03:41   You end up losing the wavelengths

01:03:43   that are not the color you want them to,

01:03:44   and that reduces the brightness,

01:03:46   which is one of the problems that OLEDs have.

01:03:48   So the reason I'm talking about all of this

01:03:50   is because quantum dot OLED sounds like a sci-fi thing

01:03:54   and I put some link in the show notes

01:03:55   that explain how it works.

01:03:57   Again, quantum dots are many, many years old

01:03:59   but they're finally to the point

01:04:01   where they can put them into television,

01:04:02   hopefully in an economic way.

01:04:04   We'll talk about that in a second.

01:04:06   What they do is they have the same blue backlight

01:04:08   because that's like the cheapest way to make it.

01:04:10   It's not a backlight, I'm sorry I can't say that.

01:04:12   Every individual pixel is a tiny blue pixel, right?

01:04:15   every individually controlled pixel on an OLED

01:04:17   is a tiny blue individually controlled OLED.

01:04:19   The quantum dot sits in front of each one

01:04:22   of the individual pixels and changes the light

01:04:27   to be the wavelength they want.

01:04:29   One of them changes it to--

01:04:30   - Why?

01:04:31   - One of them changes it to green,

01:04:32   one of them changes to red,

01:04:33   and they just let the blue one straight through.

01:04:34   And the quantum dot thing does it,

01:04:36   using some physics stuff that's explained in these videos,

01:04:39   in a way that loses you almost none of the light.

01:04:42   It like changes the wavelength of the light

01:04:44   without like blocking it or filtering it,

01:04:45   it just changed, it's quantum physics,

01:04:47   it's literally quantum physics.

01:04:49   The bottom line is,

01:04:50   now you have individually controlled pixels

01:04:53   where you don't lose as much of the light

01:04:55   through the stupid red, green and blue filter thing,

01:04:56   there are red, green filters in this case.

01:04:58   You don't need the W sub pixel anymore,

01:05:00   you don't need the big honking white sub pixels,

01:05:02   you can have red, green and blue sub pixels

01:05:05   and you get almost 100% of the light

01:05:07   from the blue OLED that's behind it.

01:05:09   You do get 100% in the blue case

01:05:11   'cause there's not even any quantum dot in front of that,

01:05:12   I think it just comes through as blue because it's blue, you know, LED.

01:05:16   And what that means is OLED televisions with way better brightness without the white subpixels

01:05:22   to wash out the images so they have better color reproduction and all the same advantages

01:05:26   of OLED.

01:05:27   So this is super cool.

01:05:28   In theory, maybe also less burn in because you don't have to drive the pixels as hard

01:05:32   because you're not losing as much light to the filtering.

01:05:35   And the harder you drive the pixels, the more they wear out because they have organic compounds

01:05:38   and then crap.

01:05:39   We'll see.

01:05:40   All right.

01:05:41   the only company that makes QD OLED panels is not LG,

01:05:45   but Samsung.

01:05:46   - Oh.

01:05:47   - Samsung also makes televisions,

01:05:49   but Samsung is not shipping QD OLED TV.

01:05:53   I think it's the same kind of deal with like LG display

01:05:56   and LG electronics.

01:05:57   There's like this adversarial relationship

01:05:59   between the people who make the panels

01:06:00   and the people who make the TVs.

01:06:02   So the only company, as far as I'm aware,

01:06:05   in 2022 that's selling a QD OLED TV is Sony,

01:06:08   is selling a QD OLED containing a Samsung QD OLED panel.

01:06:12   No pricing has been announced yet

01:06:15   and there's some scary things about it

01:06:16   that say it might be like $8,000,

01:06:18   in which case I'm not getting one.

01:06:19   But that's the situation now

01:06:22   and I find it really exciting

01:06:23   if you've never heard of QDL

01:06:25   and you might've heard of QD quantum dot stuff for Q LEDs

01:06:29   because quantum dot LCD televisions also exist

01:06:31   where they use quantum dots instead of filters

01:06:33   but with an LCD backlight.

01:06:35   But those have all the same problems with the backlight thing

01:06:37   If the backlight is across the whole thing, that's bad.

01:06:39   And if the backlight has 2000 regions for 4 million pixels,

01:06:42   that's also bad, right?

01:06:43   So quantum dots are not new,

01:06:45   but quantum dots plus OLED is new.

01:06:47   And I'm super excited about it.

01:06:49   I'll probably talk more about the Sony television

01:06:52   on rectiffs because that's where I get to complain

01:06:54   about the stands people put on televisions,

01:06:55   but that's the TV news for 2022.

01:06:59   And the reason it's related to,

01:07:03   yeah, I mean, it's a tech stuff too,

01:07:04   but also in terms of Apple stuff,

01:07:06   If you're looking for what is the sort of next step in,

01:07:11   I guess iPad, but also even like Pro Display XDR type stuff,

01:07:16   it's either quantum.OLED,

01:07:18   which I can imagine them maybe using on an iPad someday,

01:07:21   or micro LED, which is where instead of having a blue LED

01:07:27   with three filters in front of it,

01:07:29   every individual sub pixel is its own colored LED.

01:07:33   Those are insanely expensive

01:07:35   and not within the realm of commercial viability

01:07:38   or size viability for Apple's devices yet.

01:07:41   But we'll keep your eye on that,

01:07:44   meet back here in five to 10 years.

01:07:46   - Okay.

01:07:48   Are you ever really going to buy a new,

01:07:52   I almost said new computer, I'm so used to saying that,

01:07:55   a new television, like is this ever really going to happen?

01:07:57   - I mean, I was waiting to see

01:07:59   what they were gonna say at CES

01:08:00   'cause the rumors ahead of time

01:08:01   thought somebody was gonna ship a QD OLED TV,

01:08:04   I just assumed it would be Samsung because they're making the panels but now it's Sony and that makes me wanted more because I hate

01:08:09   Like their TVs are more scummy. But before CES I was like I should buy

01:08:14   Sony a90j when they get cheap like as soon as the new TVs come out

01:08:18   Like I should buy the last of someone's inventory of Sony a90j

01:08:22   Which is like the one of the better one of the best OLED

01:08:24   televisions from last year in particular

01:08:27   I like it because they have a heatsink in it and the heatsink in theory helps with image retention

01:08:33   It just seems like a good idea for me.

01:08:35   All of the new top-end OLED TVs have at least one or two

01:08:39   models with heat sinks in them,

01:08:40   so I feel like Sony was ahead of the game

01:08:41   by introducing one last year.

01:08:43   But I figured, you know, like, I know QD OLEDs coming out.

01:08:46   If QD OLEDs are eight grand or something,

01:08:48   then maybe I'll get an A90J for, you know, under $2,000.

01:08:52   But I haven't seen the pricing for the Sony yet,

01:08:55   so we'll see.

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01:10:57   So there was a very interesting article that came out,

01:11:00   or that I was made aware of sometime last week,

01:11:03   and it was on whathi-fi.com.

01:11:06   It's a pretty funny name for a online magazine.

01:11:09   And it's an interview with Gary Geeves,

01:11:11   I hope I pronounced that right,

01:11:13   who is the vice president of acoustics at Apple.

01:11:16   And you know, some of this is exactly what you would expect

01:11:18   from this sort of thing,

01:11:19   but some of it was really, really good.

01:11:21   And there's a few quotes that I think John and I

01:11:22   have pulled from the article that I'd like to read you.

01:11:25   Gary says, "So from the analytic

01:11:27   to, oh sorry, let me give you some more context. So this is about, you know, creating new AirPods 3

01:11:31   and to some degree the other AirPods as well. And Gary is very much in charge, maybe not in charge

01:11:36   of, but very integral to creating these, particularly with regard to doing the mathematics

01:11:42   and science behind acoustics, right? Is that fair summary? Sure. So a couple of quotes from the

01:11:49   article. So from the analytic tuning, we work closely with an expert team of critical listeners

01:11:53   and tuners. Many of these are folks from the pro audio industry and really what they try

01:11:57   to do is intentionally refine the sound signature for each product. AirPods in this case so

01:12:01   that it's accurate but it's also exciting and moving. So they're trying to work with

01:12:06   people who are actually doing this sort of thing for a living and trying to make it sound

01:12:09   good, which is pretty excellent. Moving a lot, this is further down in the article.

01:12:15   When watching a movie on Apple TV, oh I just thought this was fascinating, using spatial

01:12:18   audio the virtual speakers are placed further away from you than when you're watching on

01:12:23   an iPhone. So let me kind of repeat that and change how it's phrased. So if you're doing

01:12:27   that spatial audio thing, which is like the fake surround sound, like the computational

01:12:30   surround sound, if you're doing that with an iPhone, the virtual center, if you will,

01:12:36   of all of that audio is, and I'm making the numbers up, but it's like, you know, a foot

01:12:39   in front of your face. Whereas if you do that with an Apple TV, they place the virtual center

01:12:44   of all that audio like six feet in front of your face. So it seems to be commensurate

01:12:49   with the screen you're watching, which is obvious once you hear that. But I don't know,

01:12:52   I just think that's really cool. And then a final quote from this.

01:12:55   Obviously the wireless - oh, this was kind of the money quote of the whole article -

01:12:59   "Obviously the wireless technology is critical for content delivery,

01:13:02   but also for things like the amount of latency you get when you move your head. If that's too long between you moving your head

01:13:07   and the sound changing or remaining static, it will make you feel quite ill.

01:13:10   So we have to concentrate very hard on squeezing the most that we can out of Bluetooth technology.

01:13:15   There's a number of tricks we can play to maximize or get around some of the limits of Bluetooth,

01:13:19   But it's fair to say that we would like more bandwidth in I'll stop right there

01:13:23   We would like more bandwidth and then apparently he smiled so

01:13:26   This everyone is taking this and I think reasonably so to mean hey guess what Apple's gonna do some custom thing

01:13:34   Instead of Bluetooth or you know some like custom overlay perhaps of Bluetooth in order to get more

01:13:41   bandwidth and less latency from from their wireless, you know headphones and well, I think I think the

01:13:48   more reasonable interpretation is when someone says that and we've seen a lot of Apple people on stage saying this type of thing is they

01:13:54   they talk about it, I think a limitation in the abstract and then what they'd like to tell you is and

01:13:58   Future products will will fix that in some way, but then they stop themselves and say well of course

01:14:03   They're not gonna tell you about future products

01:14:05   But the only thing they're saying is here we would like more bandwidth and our future products will have more bandwidth

01:14:10   But there's lots of ways future products can have more bandwidth. Maybe it's a new bluetooth standard

01:14:15   Maybe they use wires for everything, probably not likely.

01:14:18   Maybe it's a totally custom thing.

01:14:20   And so that's the mystery of like,

01:14:22   all this is an Apple person saying is yes,

01:14:24   Bluetooth is bandwidth constrained, we don't like it,

01:14:26   and it's a thing we're going to fix.

01:14:28   So that's sort of like confirmed,

01:14:29   Apple says future audio products will have more bandwidth,

01:14:31   but just like, duh, they have all this loss of audio

01:14:33   that they can't play over their headphones.

01:14:34   That's not a situation that's gonna stay

01:14:36   for a very long time.

01:14:37   - Yeah, so wait, so let's pause right there.

01:14:38   This is what I was about to get to,

01:14:40   and it's an important point.

01:14:41   So Apple's been working really hard

01:14:43   to get their entire catalog, if I'm not mistaken,

01:14:46   I might have the particulars wrong,

01:14:47   it doesn't really matter,

01:14:48   to get a lot of their stuff to be lossless.

01:14:49   So typically when you compress audio,

01:14:52   we've talked about this on ATP a bajillion times,

01:14:54   when you compress audio, you arguably lose data

01:14:58   that arguably nobody can hear anyway,

01:15:00   but one way or another, another approach you can take

01:15:03   is to compress it in such a way

01:15:04   that you are not losing any data, hence lossless.

01:15:08   - Basically zip for audio.

01:15:09   - Yeah, actually it's a good way of looking at it.

01:15:11   You're exactly right.

01:15:12   - It works slightly differently,

01:15:13   although not that much differently.

01:15:14   And it's the same, similar effect.

01:15:16   - Yeah, so a lot of people are really into lossless audio.

01:15:21   I will let you decide, listener, if it's snake oil or not.

01:15:24   But one way or another, I kind of think it is too,

01:15:27   but that's neither here nor there.

01:15:29   One way or another, in order to send lossless audio

01:15:32   to a set of AirPods, you need a lot of bandwidth

01:15:37   in order to do that, or at least compared

01:15:39   to the Bluetooth standards of today.

01:15:41   And so if Apple wants to be able to say,

01:15:43   "Oh, our fancy schmancy new AirPods 2 support lossless audio,"

01:15:46   which we conveniently have in our entire Apple Music library,

01:15:50   then hey, guess what?

01:15:51   They're going to need to have a different method

01:15:52   of communicating between your phone or computer

01:15:54   or what have you and the AirPods.

01:15:57   And so that's kind of what everyone's putting together,

01:15:59   and this is what Jon was just starting to say,

01:16:01   is that, hey, Apple's saying they want more bandwidth.

01:16:03   They probably want it because of this big push

01:16:05   for lossless audio, snake oil be damned.

01:16:07   And so this is all starting to fall into place.

01:16:10   Yeah, so the way the next step in the story is a good,

01:16:14   I talked to Max Tech, his YouTube channel

01:16:15   that tries to sort of summarize and gather up

01:16:17   all of the rumors kind of the way we do on this podcast.

01:16:21   Max Tech had a good video collecting this info

01:16:24   and here is the rumor that I think makes a lot of sense.

01:16:29   And I'll be kind of, now that I've sort of read all about it

01:16:32   and everything, I'll be kind of disappointed

01:16:33   that this ends up not being true.

01:16:35   Again, all the Apple person said was, you know,

01:16:38   more bandwidth would be good and dot, dot, dot,

01:16:41   Apple is probably gonna do a thing with more bandwidth.

01:16:43   One way that Apple can get more bandwidth

01:16:45   and other stuff that is useful to Apple

01:16:48   in many different ways is to use ultra wideband,

01:16:50   which is something you should have heard of

01:16:52   if you listen to this program or if you watch Apple keynotes

01:16:55   because Apple has been shipping the U1 chip

01:16:57   in many of its devices and that is an ultra wideband chip.

01:17:00   Right now Apple uses it to help you find your air tags

01:17:03   and unlock your car and what was the thing they showed?

01:17:07   - AirDrop, it lets you do AirDrop slightly cooler.

01:17:11   (laughing)

01:17:13   It's a very minor difference.

01:17:15   - But for the, as it's relevant to audio,

01:17:18   here are some stats about it.

01:17:20   So first, bandwidth, so we were just talking about that.

01:17:22   Gary Eves says they want more of.

01:17:23   Ultra wideband apparently goes up to 675 megabits.

01:17:28   That's as compared to 2.1 megabits for Bluetooth 5.0

01:17:33   and 9.2 megabits for Apple's high res lossless audio.

01:17:35   So plenty of headroom there.

01:17:37   Like the Apple's audio is 9.2 megabits,

01:17:40   and that can't fit in the 2.1 megabits of Bluetooth,

01:17:44   but 675, you're fine, right?

01:17:47   Power consumption, another thing that's important to Apple.

01:17:49   Apparently ultra wide band uses 10 times less power

01:17:52   than BTLE, Bluetooth Low Energy.

01:17:54   So that's great.

01:17:55   It's looking really good.

01:17:58   Range, this is the one that seems iffy.

01:18:00   I put citation needed in the docs,

01:18:01   but actually there is a citation in the video.

01:18:03   Lots of different things you can find

01:18:05   about the range of ultra wideband.

01:18:07   It varies widely, but this video cites a paper that says,

01:18:10   in their testing of file transfer using ultra wideband,

01:18:13   they were getting 25 meters versus 10 meters for Bluetooth.

01:18:16   In practice, as I walk around my house,

01:18:19   I have extensively tested the range of Bluetooth

01:18:22   as I leave my phone in the kitchen and go up to the attic

01:18:26   while listening to a podcast.

01:18:28   I know how to move quickly throughout the house

01:18:29   to not run out the audio buffer

01:18:32   and to get back into the range of it,

01:18:33   But Bluetooth goes much farther than you think it does.

01:18:36   And so if ultra wide band is anything close

01:18:39   to twice the range, I think it's great.

01:18:41   The next one is latency.

01:18:43   You might think this doesn't matter too much

01:18:45   when you're playing a song or something,

01:18:47   but latency is super important to things like AR.

01:18:49   That's what Gary was talking about in this thing here

01:18:52   of like turning your head and the audio

01:18:54   and not lagging behind it or whatever.

01:18:56   The latency of Bluetooth is not great in this article

01:19:00   that we'll put a link to in the show notes.

01:19:02   they measured it to be 20 to 30 milliseconds at best.

01:19:05   An ultra wide band that this company called Spark

01:19:08   has demonstrated a sub 0.2 millisecond latency.

01:19:12   So from 30 milliseconds to 0.2 milliseconds,

01:19:15   possibly down to 0.1 if they really pushed it.

01:19:17   So way lower latency.

01:19:19   - And that, by the way, that would allow it to be

01:19:22   probably used as a live monitoring headphone,

01:19:24   which current Bluetooth headphones just cannot do

01:19:27   because of, among other problems, latency.

01:19:30   But if you wanted to, say, have that be your live monitoring

01:19:32   headphone while you're podcasting or playing music

01:19:35   or recording video or something, right now we

01:19:37   all have to use wired headphones to do that.

01:19:40   That kind of latency, if it can be that low, end to end,

01:19:44   that would allow live monitoring.

01:19:46   And that would be great.

01:19:47   I was thinking of that when I--

01:19:48   I was just thinking I heard a discussion between some people

01:19:51   about this, but I realized I didn't hear a discussion.

01:19:52   It was actually a Twitter conversation

01:19:54   that shows how I sort of like reify things in my brain

01:19:57   when I'm reading Twitter.

01:19:58   I actually hear the voices of the people talking,

01:19:59   especially if I know them,

01:20:00   and it was someone responding to someone else that I know,

01:20:03   that like, oh, Apple keeps removing these headphone ports,

01:20:05   and it's terrible, 'cause if you're doing

01:20:07   live audio monitoring,

01:20:08   you need that zero latency connection.

01:20:10   I was like, A, nothing is zero latency,

01:20:11   and B, you don't need it to be zero,

01:20:13   it just needs to be low enough that you don't notice.

01:20:17   This first one was talking about editing video,

01:20:19   all the things you just talked about,

01:20:20   real-time applications where it's annoying

01:20:21   if there's even a few milliseconds of lag, right?

01:20:23   - Yeah, if it could be like the low single digits

01:20:26   of milliseconds at the most,

01:20:28   then that really enables a lot of those applications.

01:20:32   - Right, and if it can be 0.2 milliseconds,

01:20:34   then that's gonna be as good.

01:20:36   Here's the, like, in this quote here from this article,

01:20:39   the 0.2 milliseconds, this company says,

01:20:42   "This is far beyond what Bluetooth can do,

01:20:44   "and it's even faster than what many commercially available

01:20:46   "USB wired mice can deliver."

01:20:48   So sometimes USB wired peripherals

01:20:51   can't even get this low latency.

01:20:53   So this would solve the latency problem

01:20:55   for devices without headphone jacks.

01:20:57   - Well, at the protocol level.

01:20:59   I mean, you would still have whatever the software stack is

01:21:02   that's feeding it and everything.

01:21:03   So there would be other complexities to overcome, certainly,

01:21:06   but that would go a long way for sure.

01:21:08   - Yeah, and as the article,

01:21:11   Interview with the Apple person said,

01:21:12   very relevant to VR/AR goggles

01:21:15   and whipping your head around and having spatial audio

01:21:17   and having the audio correctly and very quickly react

01:21:20   to how you're moving your head.

01:21:21   Like this is very relevant, as I said,

01:21:23   very relevant to Apple's interests.

01:21:25   All the specs that we've read so far.

01:21:26   And finally, there's spectrum.

01:21:27   - You know where it's also relevant?

01:21:29   Wireless headphones for games.

01:21:32   And probably, I would assume, game controllers.

01:21:34   Like wireless game console controllers,

01:21:36   I would imagine that would also be very valuable.

01:21:38   - Yep, although most of them don't use spatial stuff.

01:21:40   And the lag they did,

01:21:41   'cause I use wireless audio headphones

01:21:43   when I'm doing Destiny things,

01:21:45   and the lag, it's not like editing audio in real time

01:21:47   where you're kind of annoyed by the lag.

01:21:50   And it doesn't do head tracking,

01:21:52   so there's no sort of spatial queasiness.

01:21:54   And the lag that is there is not as big an effect

01:21:57   if you're not doing that.

01:21:58   But the VR headset stuff is more relevant.

01:22:00   And by the way, Sony did announce a new VR thing for PS5,

01:22:03   but they did it as a press release with no pictures.

01:22:05   It was great.

01:22:06   They just described it.

01:22:07   They're like, we have a VR headset

01:22:09   and it has this many pixels per eye

01:22:11   and this many frames per second

01:22:13   and this much latency and these features.

01:22:16   And no, we can't tell you anything more about it

01:22:18   or show any pictures.

01:22:19   - Cheers to a different school.

01:22:20   - Yeah, exactly.

01:22:22   Canadian girlfriend VR helmet.

01:22:24   - God, that took me a second, well done.

01:22:26   - So, Spectrum, we'll put a little link in the show notes

01:22:30   that has this graph from this Android authority article

01:22:33   showing the Spectrum, I don't know if the scale

01:22:36   on the bottom is, if the scale is to scale,

01:22:39   but as the name would make you suspect,

01:22:43   Ultra Wideband uses a very wide band of Spectrum.

01:22:47   They use like 500 megahertz wide channels

01:22:50   And part of the thing that makes ultra wide band work

01:22:53   is that it's very, very wide,

01:22:55   like lots of different frequencies.

01:22:56   I think this was made possible

01:22:57   by freeing up a bunch of frequencies

01:22:58   that maybe were used for analog applications in the past.

01:23:00   So it's very, very wide band

01:23:01   and it's out of the way of other standards.

01:23:03   Like it's not in the same range as Bluetooth and wifi,

01:23:06   which are both in the,

01:23:07   well, they can both be in the 2.4 gigahertz range.

01:23:10   So Bluetooth can mess with wifi

01:23:12   if you're not using five gigahertz wifi and everything.

01:23:15   But ultra wide band is super wide

01:23:17   so it can avoid interference and other things.

01:23:19   and it doesn't interfere with any of our existing standards.

01:23:22   And it's very, very low power.

01:23:24   In fact, according to this article,

01:23:25   below the noise floor of most of the other standards.

01:23:28   So it's like invisible to them because it's so low power,

01:23:31   they ignore signals that are that low.

01:23:33   So this, I read all this and I'm like,

01:23:37   you know, I guess I knew the U1 chip was in there.

01:23:39   I knew about ultra wideband.

01:23:40   I knew what it was capable of.

01:23:41   Like a lot of the things that the applications were saying,

01:23:43   like how you can use define your air tags

01:23:46   or pointed at your phone to air drop with people and stuff.

01:23:49   use the improved ability to get time of flight information

01:23:53   for multiple devices.

01:23:54   You can tell how far away it is

01:23:56   and which direction it's pointing and stuff.

01:23:58   It knows when you get close to your car.

01:24:00   But I never thought of it as like,

01:24:01   can we just use this as a replacement for Bluetooth?

01:24:03   And believe me, we need a replacement for Bluetooth.

01:24:05   Bluetooth sucks.

01:24:06   (laughing)

01:24:08   It's gotten so much better over the years,

01:24:10   but it really is the main thing that annoys me

01:24:12   about wireless audio.

01:24:15   I like the fact that every device has Bluetooth.

01:24:17   I like the fact that my car has it, my phone has it, my iPad has it.

01:24:20   I don't like how long it takes for things to connect and disconnect.

01:24:23   And Apple tried to do the best they could to make that better with its whatever

01:24:27   H1 chip and it is better.

01:24:29   And I actually do like the automatic switching even though Marco doesn't.

01:24:32   And I do like...

01:24:32   Oh, actually, let me interrupt you real quick.

01:24:35   I have been a, I don't think I've said it, but I've been an automatic switching

01:24:40   apologist for a long time.

01:24:41   And after the 95th time that I'm actively listening to something on my phone,

01:24:47   phone but one of the kids is using the aforementioned iPad to play like a kid-friendly educational

01:24:53   game. And I think it's because I hadn't touched my phone in a while and the iPad is actively

01:24:59   being used. Suddenly I'm like out in front of the house and my stupid AirPods Pro, which

01:25:03   I still love, are suddenly jumping over to the iPad. Even though I'm actively listening

01:25:08   to a friggin' podcast, I finally decided that at least for the iPad I am turning off auto

01:25:14   switching because what is nice is that maybe I misunderstood it but I think

01:25:17   it's by device. Yes, in order to disable auto switching for the

01:25:22   AirPods you have to turn it off on every device that has ever connected to them.

01:25:27   Which actually in my use case is kind of nice because I want it on my computer

01:25:31   and I want it on my my iPhone but I don't want it on the iPad that the kids

01:25:36   occasionally steal to play you know kiddo educational games so I I have to

01:25:41   Mia Colpa a little bit and eat a little bit of crow and say I am at least partially embracing the no auto switching lifestyle

01:25:47   Because it was driving me bananas

01:25:49   Can I just sorry?

01:25:51   Can I is there a way for me to disable the prompt on the Apple TV where Oh

01:25:56   Seriously, I pet iPhones air pods are nearby. Yes

01:26:01   Yes

01:26:01   when I walk in from a dog walk and

01:26:04   Adam and Tiff are watching Adventure Time like six feet away on the TV in front of the front door and it pops up a

01:26:10   and I'm like, okay, now I'm like, all right,

01:26:11   don't click my headphones right now,

01:26:13   because it'll take the audio from the TV.

01:26:16   (laughs)

01:26:16   Please, if anybody knows how to turn that off

01:26:19   in a quick way, please let me know.

01:26:21   - Maybe you could just turn off Bluetooth

01:26:22   on your Apple TV somewhere.

01:26:23   - Well, the remote control is Bluetooth.

01:26:25   - I was gonna say.

01:26:26   - Yeah, I guess.

01:26:27   - I don't know, anyway, yeah, that kind of feature

01:26:31   probably works great if you are single and live alone.

01:26:35   If you're the only person who's ever gonna use

01:26:37   that are physically in your place.

01:26:40   That probably works fantastically,

01:26:42   but I think it breaks down a lot

01:26:43   once there's multiple people around.

01:26:45   Then it's like, okay, well now somebody

01:26:46   could be watching the Apple TV,

01:26:48   and you could be walking in with your dog

01:26:49   listening to a podcast, and not be able to

01:26:51   click the button on your headphones now

01:26:52   'cause it'll take the audio from the TV.

01:26:54   And by the way, they have to then look

01:26:55   at this giant overlay saying,

01:26:57   hey AirPods Pro nearby, you wanna connect?

01:27:00   Yeah, oh, it's gone. - Well, and it's funny

01:27:01   because I am terrible in that I use

01:27:04   the little case cover of the AirPods

01:27:07   like a fidget spinner which I know I shouldn't do.

01:27:09   - Oh God, so it's like constantly popping up on people?

01:27:11   - But that's the thing is that it's on the TV

01:27:13   like constantly which is my fault.

01:27:15   But Aaron, literally today, Aaron said to me,

01:27:17   'cause we were standing in the kitchen

01:27:19   and you can see the TV from the kitchen

01:27:22   and I was looking at Aaron, but Aaron I guess

01:27:23   happened to be facing the TV and I'm doing the--

01:27:26   - Flip, flip, flip, flip.

01:27:28   - That's bad for your case too.

01:27:28   - I'm just doing it over and over again.

01:27:30   - She's like leave it, leave it.

01:27:32   - Seriously, it was like she was talking to Penny.

01:27:33   - We should get you a dedicated case just for fidgeting

01:27:36   and just remove the battery from the car.

01:27:37   - You're right, but she seriously,

01:27:39   it was basically like she was talking to Penny

01:27:41   and she's like, "Can you stop playing

01:27:42   "with your AirPods please?"

01:27:43   I was like, "What?"

01:27:44   Oh, right, sorry.

01:27:45   - Before we get back to Ultra Wideband,

01:27:47   I will say that I still enjoy the auto switching.

01:27:49   Like when I'm sitting in my bed at night

01:27:50   watching a TV show on my iPad

01:27:53   and someone texts me something on my phone,

01:27:55   I pick up my phone and I'm still watching the TV show

01:27:59   with my AirPods in, I'm watching it on the iPad,

01:28:01   I pick up my phone and my phone brings down the overlay

01:28:04   that says like, oh, John's AirPods,

01:28:06   but the audio is still coming out of the iPad.

01:28:08   And then I look at the message and it's like,

01:28:09   oh, someone sent me a funny TikTok.

01:28:11   So I tap on the funny TikTok,

01:28:13   it starts playing immediately through my headphones.

01:28:16   And then I put down my phone

01:28:18   and the audio goes right back to my iPad.

01:28:20   It's like magic.

01:28:20   It works exactly like Apple says.

01:28:22   And if I had to manually switch, I would never do that.

01:28:25   But I do wanna see the TikTok,

01:28:26   but I don't wanna annoy my wife with TikTok audio.

01:28:28   I love the auto switching, can't live without it.

01:28:31   Can live without everything that has to do with Bluetooth,

01:28:34   because it really is not my friend

01:28:36   and it takes way too long.

01:28:37   That's setting aside all of those stuff.

01:28:38   - Today I learned that I can send you funny TikToks.

01:28:41   - Yeah.

01:28:42   (laughing)

01:28:43   So this ultra wideband stuff,

01:28:45   I really hope these rumors are true

01:28:47   because every, I think, I couldn't look this up,

01:28:49   but according to this video,

01:28:51   every iPhone since the iPhone 11 has had the U1,

01:28:54   even like the cheap SE stuff, I'm not sure about that.

01:28:56   Certainly all the flagship phones have,

01:28:58   but the point is this U1 chips are out there

01:28:59   and we talked for years like,

01:29:00   why are all these U1 chips and these Apple devices,

01:29:02   What are they doing there?

01:29:04   It's like, oh, I guess they can use,

01:29:06   again, when it was just AirDrop, it was stupid.

01:29:07   And every time they add a feature to it,

01:29:08   it's like, oh, maybe that's where they added the U1.

01:29:10   But imagine if Ultra Wideband becomes

01:29:13   the wireless audio connection standard for all AirPods,

01:29:18   starting with the new AirPod Pro 2,

01:29:21   and continuing for like revisions

01:29:22   of all their products after that,

01:29:24   including their ARV or headset,

01:29:26   including all future AirPods.

01:29:27   Maybe they'll also support Bluetooth

01:29:29   because they have to work in cars and stuff like that.

01:29:31   But please bring on the ultra wideband revolution.

01:29:35   If this works as advertised with these type of specs,

01:29:37   it seems so much better than Bluetooth.

01:29:39   And again, ultra wideband is not something Apple invented.

01:29:42   It's an open standard, just like Bluetooth.

01:29:44   Anybody can implement it, I think.

01:29:46   If Apple does a good job with this,

01:29:47   and if this standard is better than Bluetooth

01:29:50   in all the ways that we know with modern eyes

01:29:54   and the use cases people are gonna use it for,

01:29:56   I want this yesterday.

01:29:57   And we can kinda get it yesterday

01:29:59   because if they introduce,

01:30:00   Unfortunately, they'd be AirPod Pros too,

01:30:01   and I don't like the Pros 'cause they go on ear canals,

01:30:03   but if they introduce AirPods with ultra wide band,

01:30:06   it's not like you have to buy all new devices to use them.

01:30:08   All the way back to the iPhone 11, they'll work.

01:30:10   They won't work in your car,

01:30:12   and which means I hope they also support Bluetooth,

01:30:14   but wow, I would love,

01:30:16   and I don't care about the high bandwidth for the lossless,

01:30:18   I don't care about any of that.

01:30:19   I just want the range, the power,

01:30:21   and hopefully faster, more reliable connect disconnect.

01:30:26   So as far as I'm concerned, bring on this rumor.

01:30:30   - Yeah, they've had those U1 chips in the phones

01:30:32   for a few years now, and when they first came out,

01:30:35   it's always been the story of,

01:30:37   everyone's kinda wondering,

01:30:39   they have to have some kind of other plan for these.

01:30:43   They've been putting them in for so long,

01:30:45   and they've done suspiciously little with them in public.

01:30:49   And so the idea has always been,

01:30:52   I bet they're planning on using these

01:30:54   in a clever way in the future.

01:30:56   And I think the fun thing where the AirTags show you

01:31:01   like how to zoom in on the AirTag

01:31:03   when you're getting near your object,

01:31:05   that is probably not the only plan they had for that.

01:31:08   So I think this is a very, very plausible theory

01:31:11   that this could be the direction they go with the AirPods.

01:31:14   And I hope it's true, just like you.

01:31:16   I really want this to be true,

01:31:18   because Bluetooth is awful for so many reasons.

01:31:21   It has surfaced well for many years,

01:31:23   But it's time has passed and this would be great

01:31:26   if this works nearly as well as they say it will.

01:31:29   - Real time follow up from Alex Sibensky in the Apple TV.

01:31:33   Settings, remotes and devices, Bluetooth,

01:31:36   suggest nearby AirPods off.

01:31:38   And I will put that in the show notes.

01:31:40   - All right, I'm doing that yesterday.

01:31:42   Right after this podcast, before I go to bed.

01:31:45   Setting that on both the Apple TVs.

01:31:47   - Fair enough. - The only good thing

01:31:48   about Ultra Wideband is because it's not a proprietary thing

01:31:51   In theory, it could also be in all of our cars

01:31:54   in the future too.

01:31:54   It's not like, oh, Apple's doing its own thing.

01:31:57   Like this is why it's better than Apple coming up

01:31:59   with its own protocol and its own everything, right?

01:32:01   It's using a newer, better industry standard

01:32:04   that suits this purpose.

01:32:05   And I think this ultra wide band would also be better

01:32:09   for all the same reasons in all of our cars.

01:32:11   Obviously car technology takes a long time to catch up,

01:32:13   so I'm not holding my breath for that, but.

01:32:15   - Well, but in the meantime,

01:32:16   we'll be able to buy some $12 thing off Amazon

01:32:17   that plugs into the cigarette lighter

01:32:18   and offers an ultra wide band receiver.

01:32:21   - That's the big question.

01:32:22   This rumor is true.

01:32:24   Does Apple continue to support Bluetooth everywhere?

01:32:26   I think they probably,

01:32:29   obviously like phones would still have Bluetooth

01:32:30   to work in cars, that's the main use case.

01:32:32   But like maybe the AirPods no longer support Bluetooth

01:32:34   so you can't use them as generic Bluetooth

01:32:36   headphones anymore.

01:32:39   Or maybe the first version has both

01:32:41   the ultra wideband Bluetooth

01:32:42   but then eventually they drop the Bluetooth

01:32:43   in the headphones only because

01:32:45   it's not like people are using their AirPods

01:32:46   to connect to their car, I don't think, right?

01:32:48   It's like more of a--

01:32:49   - Well, but like do Macs have ultra wide band chips in them?

01:32:52   Like do the recent, do the M1 Macs have that chip?

01:32:54   - Macs don't have face ID.

01:32:56   - That's true.

01:32:57   - Just because something is cool and works in lots

01:32:59   of Apple products doesn't mean Macs have that,

01:33:00   but I think that's stupid,

01:33:01   and I think Macs should have U1 chip.

01:33:03   I don't know if they do.

01:33:04   Like maybe the M1 still, I don't know.

01:33:05   - I don't remember hearing about it,

01:33:07   so I would assume they probably don't,

01:33:09   but that could be interesting.

01:33:10   - Go to System Profiler and look at the device tree

01:33:12   on your Mac and see if there's anything

01:33:14   that looks like a U1 chip.

01:33:16   - I mean, would it show up here?

01:33:17   - Somewhere.

01:33:19   I don't know, we'll find out by next week.

01:33:20   Someone who works at Apple, tell us

01:33:21   whether the Macs have U1 chips.

01:33:24   - All right, do we have time for a little bit of Ask ATP?

01:33:29   - Maybe we can pick and choose questions.

01:33:30   Is there any one, what are the questions here?

01:33:32   Any one of these three that you like?

01:33:34   - I have one I would like to ask

01:33:37   because I wanna know the answer to this.

01:33:39   I feel like I've talked to you about this before, actually.

01:33:41   Nathaniel Gorey writes,

01:33:42   "How much sleep do you each get a night on average?

01:33:44   "In particular, does John Sleepitall preach?

01:33:47   He seems to have an endless list of commitments between a jobby job, regular podcast, app

01:33:50   dev, destiny, media consumption, oh yeah, and two kids.

01:33:54   Yes, I would also like to know, Jon, when do you sleep?

01:33:57   And I know we've talked about this in the past, I think privately mostly, but I don't

01:34:01   understand how you do as much as you do.

01:34:03   Yeah, so the answer is, I don't know how much sleep I got on average, so the answer is not

01:34:10   as much as I should.

01:34:13   That's the unfortunate answer.

01:34:16   I do have a lot of commitments.

01:34:18   Over the years I have adjusted things in my life to fit the amount of time and energy

01:34:25   that I have that has varied.

01:34:28   When my children were very young, like infants and toddlers, obviously it was much worse.

01:34:33   But on the other hand, I think I had fewer podcasts then.

01:34:36   It's a balance.

01:34:41   The number of podcasts I have and what my recording schedule looks like and the job

01:34:44   that I have and how much time I spend and all the other stuff, it just barely fits.

01:34:52   Mostly kind of doesn't fit because I'm not getting enough sleep and the way that

01:34:55   works is how do I get to do any fun stuff.

01:34:58   Like if I have a day where I just, from the moment I wake up I'm always doing something,

01:35:03   and then the day ends and I feel like I've worked the entire day because it's like

01:35:07   doing kids stuff in the morning, getting kids off to school, and then a regular 9-5ish job

01:35:13   plus or minus working from home COVID weirdness,

01:35:16   ferrying kids around, doing other stuff,

01:35:18   and then getting dinner, and then cleaning up after dinner,

01:35:21   and then doing a podcast, and by that point,

01:35:23   like now my day is over, now I get to have the me time,

01:35:26   right, and how do you end up having me time?

01:35:29   Where do you get to play Destiny,

01:35:31   you get to watch some TV shows?

01:35:32   Sometimes to get more quote unquote me time,

01:35:37   the way I do that is by cutting into sleep,

01:35:39   'cause it's the one part of the day

01:35:42   that has some flexibility.

01:35:43   I can't really work fewer hours at my jobby job.

01:35:47   I can't really record fewer hours of podcasts

01:35:49   'cause it's kind of regular schedule and a commitment.

01:35:52   I can't avoid driving kids around

01:35:56   or doing all that stuff or whatever.

01:35:59   So the only thing that is a flex block kind of is sleep.

01:36:02   And that's why I don't get enough sleep

01:36:04   because I'll want to watch not just one episode of a show,

01:36:08   but I'm actually behind two episodes

01:36:10   or I'm behind one episode in three of my shows

01:36:12   or I want to do a thing in Destiny

01:36:13   that takes several hours to complete or whatever.

01:36:16   And yeah, I end up eating into sleep.

01:36:18   Weekends do still exist though,

01:36:19   and I try not to have any podcasts on weekends

01:36:21   if I can at all help it,

01:36:22   so I can play more Destiny on weekends

01:36:24   if I'm not doing other things, right?

01:36:26   I would like to get eight hours of sleep, I do not.

01:36:30   I like usually, if you want to know

01:36:33   like what my current situation

01:36:34   with the current set of responsibilities

01:36:36   and stuff like that, in general,

01:36:38   I'm in bed by midnight and the alarm goes off at 6.30.

01:36:41   That's not enough sleep. I do not recommend this approach. Do not do this. That's terrible. Yeah, that really is so my

01:36:47   Erin's alarm goes off. I think like 615 ish and then usually I'll

01:36:53   loiter in bed for just a few more minutes before I get out of bed and I'm out of bed no later than

01:36:58   630 on a weekday and I am usually climbing in bed around

01:37:02   10 give or take a little bit and I'm usually not falling asleep until around 11

01:37:06   So I'm getting easily an hour more sleep than you are John

01:37:10   And I feel like I still accomplished quite a bit less.

01:37:12   Marco, what's your schedule?

01:37:14   - I'm really boring.

01:37:15   I go to bed most nights around 10.30

01:37:17   and wake up most mornings around 6.30.

01:37:19   So I get the eight hours you're supposed to get most nights

01:37:21   or something close to it.

01:37:22   Maybe one hour less if I stay up too late

01:37:24   watching TV or something.

01:37:25   But it's pretty boring.

01:37:28   I didn't always get this much or little,

01:37:34   depending on how you look at it, sleep.

01:37:36   But that's kind of where I am now.

01:37:37   That's why when I briefly did sleep tracking

01:37:39   with the Apple Watch this past fall.

01:37:42   And I stopped doing it after about a week or two

01:37:45   because I'm like, well this isn't really

01:37:47   actionable information that this is telling me.

01:37:49   I don't, right now in this point in my life

01:37:52   I seem to have fairly normal functional sleep.

01:37:55   And that's it.

01:37:57   - If you wanna feel like an underachiever

01:37:59   with your sleep, you should get,

01:38:00   I recently got a new tracker dog collar thing

01:38:03   that I'm trying for my dog.

01:38:05   - Oh for you.

01:38:06   I was gonna say for you.

01:38:07   - Yeah.

01:38:08   And it also does sleep tracking.

01:38:10   - For your dog?

01:38:11   - Yes.

01:38:11   And I'm fairly shocked by the numbers

01:38:14   in the dog's sleep tracking.

01:38:16   - No, dogs sleep a lot.

01:38:18   I mean, they're kind of supposed to,

01:38:19   they're made for that.

01:38:20   Like, they're built that way,

01:38:21   that they do get a lot of sleep normally in a healthy way.

01:38:25   - So what's your guess?

01:38:26   I mean, I still don't have, like,

01:38:27   I think I only have maybe, like,

01:38:29   a couple weeks worth of data here,

01:38:30   but what's your guess for sleep numbers for my dog?

01:38:33   - Hours per day?

01:38:34   Oh, geez, I would say,

01:38:36   - I mean, I know, dogs seem to be

01:38:37   like in a very light sleep a lot.

01:38:39   They're almost like screen savers.

01:38:40   Like if you don't play with them for a few minutes,

01:38:43   they go into power save mode and just fall asleep.

01:38:45   - Well, my dog is young.

01:38:48   She's only four years old,

01:38:49   and she goes to a doggy play date most days during the week

01:38:52   where she sees other dogs and runs around in the backyard

01:38:54   and is just generally a crazed beast.

01:38:56   - I'm gonna say something like 16 hours a day.

01:38:58   - Yeah, I was gonna say somewhere between 12 and like 18.

01:39:01   So yeah, I'll go, are we doing "Prices Right?"

01:39:04   (laughing)

01:39:05   - Sure, price is right rules.

01:39:07   - Price is right rules, $1.

01:39:09   No, I would say 15 hours.

01:39:11   - What did Marcus say, 16?

01:39:12   - 16, yeah.

01:39:14   - Actual answer, 18 hours per day.

01:39:16   - Ah, damn.

01:39:17   - But here's the breakdown, 8.9 hours per night,

01:39:20   because my dog is up by like six, 6.30 a.m.

01:39:23   every single day, which is one of the reasons

01:39:24   the household has to get early.

01:39:25   Someone in the household, although it's usually my wife,

01:39:27   she usually does this for me,

01:39:29   has to take the dog out at 6.30 a.m.,

01:39:30   although the whole house starts that time of day,

01:39:33   on the weekdays anyway, just to get everyone up and out.

01:39:35   But then during the day, 9.3 hours average nap time.

01:39:39   And that's with like going to a doggy play date

01:39:41   and going on multiple walks and doing a lot of stuff

01:39:43   and getting way more steps than us during the day

01:39:45   'cause it's a step tracking too.

01:39:47   As the notifications frequently say, my dog is crushing it.

01:39:50   (laughing)

01:39:52   Crushing it by sleeping 18 hours a day

01:39:53   and getting like 37,000 steps.

01:39:56   - I fully understand this is not an endorsement,

01:39:59   you just got the device,

01:40:00   but which tracker are you using now?

01:40:02   - Yeah, so this is actually a good tech story.

01:40:06   Like the reason I have any kind of tracker collar thing

01:40:09   is 'cause my dog is a flight risk.

01:40:11   - Oh, same.

01:40:13   Is there any way to fix this?

01:40:14   'Cause it's driving me down.

01:40:15   - There is in theory, but like you read a lot of stuff about

01:40:18   and here's the thing, dogs with very strong prey drive

01:40:22   are very difficult to train to come back to you

01:40:25   because the whole training process relies

01:40:27   on you having something that the dog finds motivating.

01:40:29   So you can use like pieces of steak or hot dogs

01:40:32   or whatever you think, like a whole live chicken,

01:40:34   like whatever you think your dog is gonna be into, right?

01:40:37   To get, as soon as you get something

01:40:39   that the dog finds desirable,

01:40:40   you can train a dog to do anything, right?

01:40:42   The problem comes when the most desirable thing

01:40:44   in the entire world, as far as the dog's concerned,

01:40:46   is the squirrel, the bird, the whatever,

01:40:49   and nothing you ever have, no piece of food, meat, treat,

01:40:54   nothing you ever have will ever compete

01:40:56   with what's out there.

01:40:57   I feel like it's impossible to train a dog to do that.

01:41:02   Now, that's not always true because maybe that is interesting now, but maybe when the

01:41:06   dog was a puppy it was more interested in whatever you could find and I just did a bad

01:41:10   job of training recall or whatever, but my dog has a very, very strong prey drive.

01:41:15   So birds, squirrels, rabbits, those are the most interesting things in the world and so

01:41:20   when we take the dog to the dog park, which is unfenced because of annoying people who

01:41:23   live near me who consistently block the ability for us to put a fence around our dog park

01:41:28   'cause they think it would be ugly or something

01:41:31   'cause their dogs aren't flight riskers,

01:41:33   they just don't care.

01:41:34   Anyway, I don't like those people.

01:41:36   We take our dog to the dog park and she runs around

01:41:39   and plays with the other dogs and it's like

01:41:40   she's on a timer 'cause eventually when she gets bored

01:41:42   of the other dogs that are there, she will see a bird

01:41:45   a mile away and say, you know what, I'm going there now

01:41:47   and she's off like a shot.

01:41:48   So we need, too many times that happened,

01:41:51   we said we need to get a GPS on this dog.

01:41:53   So we wanna have a GPS, some of the dog runs off,

01:41:55   we can pull out our phones and literally be able to track

01:41:57   this dog anywhere to find the dog and bring it back home.

01:42:00   So we had this, what, the whistle thing

01:42:04   for the longest time, but my dog is small.

01:42:06   It's like a 40 pound dog.

01:42:07   And the whistle GPS is a big cube.

01:42:12   Like it's literally like a rectangular solid.

01:42:14   And I feel bad putting this big rectangular solid

01:42:17   on the collar, it's not very heavy.

01:42:18   But I feel bad when the dog's laying down

01:42:20   and like the little cube is in the way,

01:42:21   I'm always rotating out of the way.

01:42:22   So it's just, I wanted something that was slimmer.

01:42:25   So, you know, me and Marco are Instagram ad victims.

01:42:29   (laughing)

01:42:30   Advertising, half of my ads on Instagram are now dog stuff

01:42:33   because they've got my number on that.

01:42:35   And there was this new company,

01:42:37   I think I saw them like a couple years ago,

01:42:39   maybe they were even a Kickstarter,

01:42:40   that was like, "Now a new GPS dog collar."

01:42:42   I'm like, "Wow, that looks way slimmer

01:42:44   "than the big brick that I have now."

01:42:47   But I just forgot about it because I figured

01:42:48   the company would go out of business

01:42:49   and never make a product,

01:42:50   but somehow they did make a product,

01:42:51   and it's a real shipping thing,

01:42:52   and I started getting Instagram ads for it.

01:42:55   and I ordered it and it is slimmer.

01:42:57   There are other problems with it

01:42:59   that I'm currently working on

01:43:00   'cause it's this weird detachable thing

01:43:03   and it's integrated with the collar

01:43:05   but I'd rather not have it integrated with the collar

01:43:07   and rather just have it attached to the collar

01:43:08   and just have a conventional collar.

01:43:09   So I'm working out the collar details,

01:43:11   still iterating on this process

01:43:13   but the point is I got it, it is slimmer,

01:43:16   the app is a little bit fancier than the old one,

01:43:18   it does sleeper tracking, the old one didn't.

01:43:20   The other hand, the whistle did lick tracking,

01:43:22   how much is your dog?

01:43:23   - Oh my. - Is it licking and scratching?

01:43:25   How much is your dog licking

01:43:26   and how much is your dog scratching

01:43:27   and is that abnormal or not to see?

01:43:29   You know, anyway. - That's interesting, yeah.

01:43:30   'Cause yeah, those are common problems for dogs.

01:43:33   - I feel like I would notice them in person.

01:43:35   I don't need the app to tell me that,

01:43:36   but it's interesting that it did that.

01:43:37   Really only we're just using it for the GPS feature.

01:43:39   But the main thing I wanted to check is like,

01:43:40   how good is the, how long does the battery last

01:43:43   and how good is the GPS?

01:43:44   Like when the dog is lost,

01:43:45   does it update once every five minutes?

01:43:46   'Cause that kind of sucks.

01:43:47   You will always be, you know,

01:43:49   behind where the dog was.

01:43:50   You'll get to where the dog was five minutes ago,

01:43:51   but now it's not there anymore, right?

01:43:53   So this seems to work pretty well.

01:43:54   Updates every 60 seconds.

01:43:56   The battery is pretty darn good.

01:43:58   The original whistle battery was terrible.

01:44:00   The new whistle battery is so good

01:44:01   that I forget to charge it because it's like,

01:44:03   you can last like a month.

01:44:05   The new one says it lasts from one to three months.

01:44:08   I think one month is probably

01:44:09   what it's gonna end up lasting.

01:44:11   Let me find the--

01:44:12   - So what's the name of it?

01:44:13   Never actually told me. - It is FI.

01:44:16   I don't know if it's Fi or Fi.

01:44:19   The URL is TRYFI.COM, TRYFI, because I guess they couldn't get f.com.

01:44:27   So you can see it's way slimmer than a giant rectangular thing, but on a small dog the

01:44:33   default collars are one inch wide, which is a little bit too wide for me.

01:44:36   And I don't like the tracker to be an integral part of the collar, just because I don't trust

01:44:44   that the little hinge things will hold and if the tracking collar breaks off of your

01:44:49   dog, right, then you've defeated the purpose because now your dog is loose and doesn't

01:44:52   have the tracker on it.

01:44:54   So I'm trying to look into a thinner collar that's not as wide and that also the collar

01:44:58   is just a complete collar and then the tracker goes on the outside of it.

01:45:02   The nice thing about this company is I bought this collar because I saw it advertised and

01:45:06   I got it and hooked it up and used it and you know it's going well and everything and

01:45:09   then like two days after I got the collar and we started to use it, I started seeing

01:45:14   Instagram ads for $100 off the collar.

01:45:18   - What?

01:45:19   Why don't you tell me about these things?

01:45:19   - I was like, oh, come on.

01:45:20   I just ordered it and now Instagram,

01:45:22   and Instagram just constantly was showing it to me.

01:45:25   It was like the ad I kept saying,

01:45:26   it was like it's rubbing it in my face, $100 off, uh-huh.

01:45:29   So I was like making jokes in my life.

01:45:31   I'm like, I should email these people and just say,

01:45:33   I know you shouldn't honor this.

01:45:35   Like I just thought of Merlin and like the people

01:45:36   who are at like the Walgreens with an expired coupon saying,

01:45:39   I know this coupon has expired, can you honor it anyway?

01:45:41   It's like, that's the point of the expiration date.

01:45:44   No, you can't honor it anyway, it's expired.

01:45:46   It's like, yeah, but I'm me, can't I get the discount?

01:45:49   I know you ordered this before we had this sale,

01:45:51   but I figured it's worth a try,

01:45:54   I'll try to be nice about it.

01:45:55   And basically I just sent them screenshots

01:45:57   of the Instagram ads and I said,

01:45:58   I'm seeing these ads everywhere.

01:46:00   I know I ordered this collar like a few days ago

01:46:03   and the sale wasn't on then,

01:46:06   but is there any way you can give me the discount anyway?

01:46:08   And they immediately replied and said,

01:46:09   oh yeah, sure, you're still within the return window,

01:46:11   which is essentially them saying,

01:46:13   We know that you could just return this and buy it again,

01:46:16   but please don't do that.

01:46:17   We'll save you the effort.

01:46:18   And so they just gave me the discount retroactively,

01:46:22   which I thought was great.

01:46:23   So this ended up being like a $50 purchase

01:46:25   for a brand new GPS dog collar.

01:46:26   Obviously you have to pay a yearly subscription

01:46:28   for the GPS thing.

01:46:29   This one does wifi, GPS and LTE.

01:46:33   So it's like in every possible band.

01:46:34   And the way it does the power savings

01:46:37   is you have to make sure it's on wifi

01:46:39   when it's in your house,

01:46:40   'cause that's way lower power

01:46:41   and it just checks in periodically.

01:46:42   And then when it leaves your house,

01:46:44   then it goes on cellular and that takes way more power.

01:46:47   Anyway, so far so good with the feed thing,

01:46:50   still working on the collar.

01:46:52   It is actually, it's hard to find a collar

01:46:54   that fits well on a small dog.

01:46:56   And like I said, I'm still trying to work through the issue

01:46:58   of like, I don't want this to be a structural element

01:47:01   of the collar.

01:47:02   - For the dog.

01:47:03   - Yeah, like when the transmission and engine

01:47:07   are structural elements of fancy sports cars,

01:47:09   I don't want that from my car.

01:47:10   I just want a plain old collar where the collar is the collar and this is thin enough that it will go on the outside

01:47:15   of it

01:47:16   So that's what I'm working on now. I ordered like is it there's a whole sort of sub ecosystem of fee compatible collars

01:47:23   Like third parties make collars that work with this that can like sort of latch onto it and there's a whole range of them

01:47:29   And a lot of them seem like Etsy type sellers. So I ordered one and it's completely customizable. What color what size?

01:47:34   What color do you want the things? What kind of buckle clasp? What thickness right?

01:47:37   Do you want your dog's name engraved on it or whatever?

01:47:39   But then it's like two to three weeks for them to I assume hand make this collar and send it to me

01:47:44   So I ordered one of those a few days ago in a few weeks when it arrives

01:47:48   So hopefully it'll be better than the default collar comes with. So how much is the annual?

01:47:53   Service because I'm looking at this hundred fifty dollar collar, you know Instagram ad notwithstanding, but I don't see anywhere on this website

01:48:01   Maybe I'm a moron that it talks about how much the services

01:48:05   Yeah, they I don't think they advertise too much because obviously that's where they get you as they say

01:48:08   Right the service is the whole thing because you pay for it once but you pay the service every single year

01:48:12   I think they give you 30 days for free

01:48:14   So it's like don't worry about the service

01:48:16   You don't have to pay anything you just buy it and you use it and that's great for trying it out

01:48:20   But I believe it's $100 a year after that

01:48:22   I think you can get a discount if you buy two or three years in a row

01:48:24   But it's kind of the same the whistle was the same the whistle is like you buy a yearly plan

01:48:27   It was like a hundred bucks a year

01:48:29   But for keeping track of your dog, it's money if you have a dog that it's flight risk

01:48:33   it is money well spent.

01:48:35   - I'm just laughing at how big these collars are

01:48:36   because Hopps wears a 3/8 inch wide collar,

01:48:40   which is basically like, it's basically a cat collar.

01:48:44   It's very, he's you know, a 14, 15 pound dog.

01:48:48   He's not a big dog.

01:48:49   - Yeah, that's the problem with a lot of these GPS things.

01:48:51   Like tech wise, you know, you can only make it so small

01:48:54   and the smaller you make it, the worse the battery life is.

01:48:56   So people with very small dogs is difficult.

01:48:59   Although I will say that in my research

01:49:01   and looking at all these things,

01:49:02   do run across cat collars,

01:49:03   'cause cats are also flight risks,

01:49:06   but I feel so bad for the cats in these pictures,

01:49:09   'cause cats are not large animals

01:49:11   compared to a 40-pound dog most of the time,

01:49:13   and so when you put a big tracker on a cat,

01:49:16   they just must feel so terrible,

01:49:17   like get this thing off me,

01:49:18   but again, I feel for the people

01:49:20   who are constantly losing their cats,

01:49:21   who have cats that are escape artists,

01:49:22   it better to be able to keep track of your pet

01:49:25   and use modern technology, but yeah,

01:49:27   I don't think Hopps is a flight risk,

01:49:29   so you're probably fine.

01:49:30   - Yeah, he's really not.

01:49:32   - Well, if you see another one of those

01:49:33   $100 off coupons on Instagram, let me know.

01:49:35   - They're there right now, I guarantee you, they are there.

01:49:38   - I don't get dog advertisements, though.

01:49:40   - I'll look at my sent mail.

01:49:41   It's like a coupon code that you enter.

01:49:43   I'm gonna read it off on the air

01:49:44   and sell some college here, let's see.

01:49:46   - Use code ATP for $100 off.

01:49:48   - There is a referral code thing.

01:49:50   I will try to put the referral code--

01:49:51   - Oh, do that, do that.

01:49:52   - Yeah, I'll try to put it in the show notes link.

01:49:54   There is a referral code.

01:49:56   - Also, for whatever it's worth, Casey,

01:49:58   as John will tell you, I'm sure, as well,

01:50:00   this does get easier with age of the dog.

01:50:03   Puppies will run out anywhere for anything.

01:50:05   As dogs get older, it becomes easier

01:50:08   to keep them from doing that,

01:50:09   or they will just naturally not want to run away as much.

01:50:11   - Yeah, I keep waiting, but obviously,

01:50:12   Daisy is not that old, she's only four years old,

01:50:14   so that's not a puppy, but it's not old yet either.

01:50:18   But she has not lessened in her furor

01:50:20   to destroy every small animal she can find.

01:50:24   - Yeah, I mean, some dogs never change,

01:50:26   but the odds are on your side that this will get easier.

01:50:29   I sure hope so, because it happened just a day or two ago.

01:50:32   We had gotten a bunch of snow-- actually,

01:50:34   it's worth briefly discussing this.

01:50:35   So Richmond got somewhere, I would

01:50:37   say around four inches of snow starting Monday morning.

01:50:40   And the first day of school since mid-December

01:50:44   that the kids have is tomorrow, because four days of school

01:50:47   ruined Richmond for three days.

01:50:50   And anyways, Penny ran out because Declan

01:50:54   was trying to go from the backyard within the fence area

01:50:56   to the front yard, and apparently was not quick enough.

01:50:58   And Penny was like, "Freedom!"

01:51:00   And she was running, you know,

01:51:02   halfway down the neighborhood.

01:51:02   And I looked at Erin and said, basically,

01:51:05   if this happens again, I hope she finds her way home

01:51:07   'cause I'm not chasing her.

01:51:08   And I think I mean that because I'm so sick of it.

01:51:11   - Aw, come on.

01:51:12   - But I'm not sure.

01:51:13   But anyway, so I feel like it would be nice

01:51:17   to have something like this on her

01:51:19   because even though it only happens at most once a month,

01:51:23   it infuriates me disproportionately

01:51:25   to the amount, to the frequency in which it happens

01:51:27   'cause I am just furious when it happens,

01:51:31   because she just does not care.

01:51:32   She's like, "Oh, there you are, ha ha, now it's a game.

01:51:34   "See ya."

01:51:35   - You just gotta be more careful

01:51:35   with the opening and closing of the doors.

01:51:37   - Yeah, tell my kids that.

01:51:38   - Well, I know, I mean, it's a pain with small kids as well,

01:51:43   but they can also be trained to do it,

01:51:44   especially if they care about the dog.

01:51:45   But you could also train your dog to recall this plan.

01:51:47   I don't think she's past the trainability point.

01:51:49   - I've tried.

01:51:50   - See if you can find something

01:51:51   that she likes more than freedom.

01:51:53   (laughing)

01:51:53   - Yeah, nothing.

01:51:54   - Good luck with that.

01:51:55   - Absolutely nothing.

01:51:56   - I found, I went to the app, there's like a QR code

01:51:57   and there's that referral.

01:51:58   So my referral code for TRYFI.COM, TRYFI.COM,

01:52:02   my referral code is 5-9-R-M-G-2.

01:52:07   I will put this in the show notes.

01:52:09   - It's great podcasting.

01:52:10   - Use that referral code.

01:52:12   This is not a sponsor there,

01:52:13   not a sponsor of this program at all.

01:52:15   And the code for $100 off, I'm assuming it's still active,

01:52:19   is New Year's 100, all one word, N-E-W-Y-E-A-R-S-100.

01:52:24   $100 off, $150 off.

01:52:27   Why?

01:52:28   Because they get $100 a year from you

01:52:29   and that's where the real money is made.

01:52:30   It's not on this device.

01:52:32   - I'm just glad that you found something good

01:52:35   as a dog product on Instagram because that is one area.

01:52:39   I will buy pretty much any cool looking jacket

01:52:42   or something off Instagram,

01:52:44   but dog stuff, Instagram and Kickstarter,

01:52:47   I've had terrible luck with any kind of

01:52:50   dog related product, usually--

01:52:51   - It's like a holistic medicine, but for dogs.

01:52:54   Try this magic powder, your dog will stop chewing.

01:52:56   Oh really?

01:52:57   Don't try that stupid evidence-based medicine.

01:52:59   Try these magic crystals.

01:53:02   Don't go to your vet and ask about allergies.

01:53:04   Just try this thing that we wave over your dog's head

01:53:07   and it will tell you that your dog's allergic to grass.

01:53:10   - Thanks to our sponsors this week,

01:53:11   Squarespace, Linode, and Iodine.

01:53:14   And thanks to our members who support us directly.

01:53:16   You can join at ATP.fm/join.

01:53:19   We will talk to you next week.

01:53:21   (upbeat music)

01:53:24   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:53:26   They didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

01:53:30   (Accidental)

01:53:31   Oh, it was accidental.

01:53:33   (Accidental)

01:53:34   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, 'cause it was accidental.

01:53:40   (Accidental)

01:53:41   Oh, it was accidental.

01:53:43   (Accidental)

01:53:44   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:53:49   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:53:59   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:54:03   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-Racusa

01:54:11   It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:54:14   They didn't mean to, accidental (accidental)

01:54:19   Tech podcast so long

01:54:23   Something appeared in the show notes a while back

01:54:26   Which is an interesting question and I'm not sure how to answer it and the question is as follows

01:54:32   Should Apple stop using leather question mark?

01:54:35   I don't know. I feel like real honest-to-goodness leather like the skin the hide of an animal

01:54:42   Probably not the wisest choice to use anymore. But aren't there like in Marco

01:54:46   I presume you would know best of any of us aren't there some pretty good like synthetic or fake leathers at this point

01:54:50   You should know about this from automotive the automotive world. No, that's fair

01:54:53   It's been a very big trend especially recently to not use leather in cars even super expensive ones

01:55:00   Obvious for all the obvious reasons like aside from leather having to kill animals because they don't give you their skin for free

01:55:05   raising animals is

01:55:08   expensive and bad for the environment and all you know, it's like if

01:55:11   We can do better than leather, but of course you want something that feels expensive and is fancy and in our childhood

01:55:18   Fake leather it was not a sign of fan

01:55:21   If you had a fake leather interior or a vinyl interior in your car

01:55:26   It was seen as less but these days in lots of very fancy cars. There's a trend towards

01:55:33   Having things that have some of the qualities of leather, but that are not leather often

01:55:38   and they call it vegan leather,

01:55:39   which is a really weird way to phrase it,

01:55:41   but that's what they do.

01:55:43   And so lots of car interiors from lots of makers

01:55:46   in very expensive cars have seats

01:55:47   that are made of things and not leather.

01:55:48   I've never been a big fan of leather seats

01:55:51   just because they're cold in the winter.

01:55:52   - Oh, strong disagree.

01:55:54   - They're cold in the winter,

01:55:55   even when you have seat heaters,

01:55:56   and I guess you can pre-warm them,

01:55:58   but I've always liked cloth seats

01:56:00   because they grip you better,

01:56:02   but I understand cloths can seem cheap

01:56:03   and can wear off if your butt wears a groove in it,

01:56:06   Leather can be more sort of tough over time.

01:56:09   But it depends on the leather.

01:56:10   Sometimes leather wears out near the bolsters

01:56:12   and everything too, right?

01:56:13   So I think we can do better.

01:56:16   I think Apple should not use leather

01:56:18   for all the reasons we stated,

01:56:19   but also because we can do better.

01:56:21   I think the experiments in car interiors and dashboards

01:56:24   and other parts of cars that you touch have shown

01:56:27   that there are other better options

01:56:29   that are just plain better than leather

01:56:31   that feel good but that are more durable and more grippy

01:56:35   and maybe also not as cold in the winter.

01:56:37   - You know, the arguments against using leather,

01:56:39   I think are worth noting here,

01:56:41   because in the context of the kind of company Apple is,

01:56:45   the kind of values and priorities they have,

01:56:47   especially regarding environmentalism,

01:56:50   it is kind of surprising.

01:56:52   If Apple didn't sell leather goods already,

01:56:56   and we're talking mostly phone cases,

01:56:58   but they also had those weird leather pouches

01:57:00   for Macs and stuff, and obviously iPad covers,

01:57:03   So that's mainly what we're looking at here.

01:57:07   If Apple didn't sell those things initially,

01:57:09   like in the present day, and they started selling them,

01:57:13   I think that would seem weird.

01:57:15   Like if there was no historical baggage,

01:57:18   if they just started selling leather stuff,

01:57:19   as this company that's all about environmentalism

01:57:21   and they're pretty, politically they're pretty progressive,

01:57:25   that would seem odd that they would start selling

01:57:29   animal-based leather as a mass market item in their stores.

01:57:33   that wouldn't be the kind of thing you would expect

01:57:35   Apple to do.

01:57:36   I think there's, I mean, there's all sorts of ways

01:57:40   you could look at this question,

01:57:42   and all sorts of people's opinions on the role

01:57:45   of animal products in our supply chain, our food.

01:57:49   One way to look at this is like,

01:57:50   using animals is very expensive in certain ways.

01:57:55   It's very expensive to the environment.

01:57:59   It's very expensive morally in certain ways,

01:58:01   and people have different levels

01:58:03   of which they care about that,

01:58:05   but it's something that is very inefficient

01:58:08   and has a lot of downsides.

01:58:10   I personally, I eat animal foods,

01:58:15   but I've been dramatically reducing

01:58:18   how much of them I eat in the last year or so,

01:58:21   because I've started caring more about that kind of thing,

01:58:24   about if I can make this dish with oil instead of butter,

01:58:29   I'll make it with oil.

01:58:31   If it doesn't make that big of a difference, who cares?

01:58:33   There's so many meat alternatives on the market now

01:58:35   that are really good, many of which I actually prefer

01:58:38   to the meats that they are being alternatives to.

01:58:41   Alternative eggs, alternative dairy products.

01:58:43   A lot of this alternative, milks and stuff,

01:58:46   a lot of this stuff, I have learned to,

01:58:48   I have preferred the alternatives recently

01:58:50   because they're just, in many ways, they're better.

01:58:53   And I've started to realize I really don't want

01:58:57   to use animal stuff wastefully, in ways that it's not really providing a big benefit to

01:59:05   me or in ways that there are good alternatives because using alternatives is better for the

01:59:10   environment, it is better morally, it does solve a lot of problems or reduce a lot of

01:59:14   problems.

01:59:15   So I think leather, you can look at that the same way.

01:59:16   You can say, "Well, if there's benefits to using things that are not leather, we should

01:59:21   probably look into that."

01:59:23   And there are.

01:59:24   So that question's answered.

01:59:25   Are there benefits to not using leather?

01:59:26   - Yes, absolutely.

01:59:28   And then the question is, are there good alternatives?

01:59:31   And yes, there are.

01:59:33   And not necessarily in every possible way or style,

01:59:38   but I think they're close enough,

01:59:40   there's enough great alternatives to leather,

01:59:43   that I think Apple should stop using it.

01:59:46   And that's not to say that everyone

01:59:47   should stop using leather phone cases.

01:59:49   Other companies will make them as they do now.

01:59:52   And that's fine.

01:59:54   But I think that it's weird that Apple

01:59:57   makes leather products now.

01:59:59   With today's sensibilities, today's realities

02:00:04   of environmentalism and climate change

02:00:08   and the kind of stuff that's really important to the world,

02:00:11   it does seem weird that Apple still does sell leather.

02:00:15   And I think we have enough good alternatives

02:00:17   that cover enough of the previous need for leather now

02:00:21   that while other companies will continue

02:00:24   to sell it and that's fine for them,

02:00:25   I think Apple should lead the way here and stop.

02:00:28   - And like I said, it's not just that we get things

02:00:32   that are close enough to leather,

02:00:33   we have things that are better in some ways than leather,

02:00:36   worse in some, but better in some ways.

02:00:38   And so for your particular application,

02:00:40   you may find a thing that is superior to leather

02:00:43   in all the ways that you care about for your use case,

02:00:45   and even if you don't, you'll find something

02:00:47   that is superior to leather in one way,

02:00:49   but slightly worse in another way.

02:00:51   There are lots of good alternatives.

02:00:52   And you have to be careful with the alternatives,

02:00:53   'cause the alternative is like,

02:00:54   oh, this is a petroleum-based product.

02:00:56   That's not great either.

02:00:57   Or it takes some huge amount of energy

02:00:58   to make this alternative,

02:00:59   that it's worse than the amount of fertilizer

02:01:03   and runoff and grazing and methane put out by the cow.

02:01:07   - I mean, it would need it to be a lot,

02:01:09   to be worse than a cow.

02:01:10   - But some synthetic stuff,

02:01:11   they can end up being very expensive and energy inefficient

02:01:13   or use rare chemicals or terrible processes.

02:01:16   You have to be careful.

02:01:17   That's why a lot of the car interiors

02:01:19   aren't just, oh, we use vegan leather,

02:01:21   but also they say things like,

02:01:22   Not only do we not use leather, but this entire dashboard

02:01:25   is made from recycled materials,

02:01:27   or the seats are made from ground up magazines,

02:01:29   or like whatever, like they try to not just say

02:01:32   it is an alternative that we didn't have to kill

02:01:33   an animal for, they try to say,

02:01:35   and also it took less energy to make it is, you know,

02:01:38   less costly to the environment that has less

02:01:41   external side effects and stuff like that.

02:01:43   So we've made a lot of advances in that area.

02:01:46   And you know, one example is fancy high end supercars.

02:01:50   If they're trying to be performance oriented,

02:01:52   haven't included leather for years

02:01:53   because that's too slippery.

02:01:55   Like you want a seat that grips you.

02:01:56   That's why like Alcantara and all the other sort of

02:01:59   faux leather, faux suede type of synthetic materials

02:02:02   come in because performance wise,

02:02:04   the one characteristic that matters the most

02:02:05   is how grippy it is and leather just falls down there.

02:02:08   So if you see a leather seat in a car,

02:02:10   you know it's the more luxury oriented one

02:02:12   because it's not as grippy as the other ones, right?

02:02:15   I think that's true of phone cases as well.

02:02:17   I said about my leather case that I have on my phone

02:02:19   that it almost seems like it's synthetic leather

02:02:22   and I would be perfectly happy if it was synthetic leather

02:02:24   'cause it doesn't even seem like good synthetic leather.

02:02:26   It's just grippy enough.

02:02:28   Like it's, I don't know what alternative.

02:02:31   Does it seem like it's vinyl or whatever, right?

02:02:33   I want the performance characteristics of leather,

02:02:34   but if you saw this leather case,

02:02:37   it would take a lot for you to realize

02:02:39   that it's not fake leather 'cause it looks so artificial.

02:02:41   It's so uniform, it doesn't smell like leather.

02:02:44   It just has a few of the performance characteristics

02:02:46   of leather.

02:02:47   So I would totally buy a first party or third party case

02:02:50   with fake leather if it felt like this.

02:02:52   And I believe that's definitely possible.

02:02:55   - Yeah, and I think moreover, it's a sign like,

02:02:57   Apple cares, they care so much about environmentalism

02:03:01   in so many other ways.

02:03:02   They'll change the materials they use in their cables

02:03:07   or their chip boards, whatever,

02:03:09   to avoid certain dangerous or toxic chemicals.

02:03:12   They make other decisions across their product lines

02:03:16   for environmental reasons,

02:03:18   even when it's not popular or economical super well,

02:03:23   they still care a lot about environmental concerns

02:03:26   and they will make changes for those reasons.

02:03:28   - Even when they're worse, by the way.

02:03:30   - Yeah, yeah.

02:03:31   - Even when the wires, the plastic,

02:03:33   whatever they were using for the plastic

02:03:35   and headphone cables and power cables,

02:03:37   for many years before Apple figured out

02:03:38   how to make something that was close to as good,

02:03:41   they were just plain worse.

02:03:42   - Oh yeah.

02:03:43   - The cables were more brittle,

02:03:44   they weren't as nice as they used to be,

02:03:46   they didn't feel as expensive,

02:03:47   They didn't hold up as well.

02:03:48   But Apple made the change anyway,

02:03:50   just to try to prevent whatever environmental harm

02:03:52   was coming from the old one.

02:03:53   And eventually, Apple got better enough

02:03:56   at the more sustainable plastic

02:03:58   that it's not as, you know,

02:03:59   people have forgotten about the old ones.

02:04:01   It's kind of like all the things you hear about,

02:04:03   like when I was a kid, product X was made with Y,

02:04:06   and that's why it was better.

02:04:07   I'm trying to think of a good example.

02:04:08   Maybe it's like McDonald's fries made with lard.

02:04:10   I think that maybe I'm the only one.

02:04:11   - Beef tallow.

02:04:12   - Yeah, maybe I'm the only one old enough to remember those.

02:04:16   And then they changed to vegetable oil, whatever,

02:04:18   and it was way worse.

02:04:20   And it took McDonald's many years

02:04:22   to try to get them back to an acceptable level.

02:04:24   And people will still say, yeah, but they're not

02:04:26   like they were when I were a kid.

02:04:28   But eventually those people die, and then people

02:04:31   grow up just having McDonald's fries the way they are.

02:04:35   And we all move on.

02:04:36   And on the meat front, the exciting slash weird

02:04:40   slash gross thing to look out for potentially

02:04:42   in our lifetimes is people always trying to grow artificial meat.

02:04:46   You don't have to kill any animals,

02:04:47   and it could be like cellularly

02:04:49   exactly the same thing as beef.

02:04:51   We're not quite there yet.

02:04:52   It's super expensive to do,

02:04:54   and it doesn't quite taste and isn't quite formed

02:04:58   the same way as real beef,

02:04:59   but you feel like you can see a path to get there,

02:05:03   because the fact that we can do it now

02:05:05   in a not very good way at huge expense,

02:05:08   that's how technology starts.

02:05:10   So we just don't know how long will it take to perfect this,

02:05:12   but if you could get it to be done economically,

02:05:15   it would literally be beef.

02:05:16   Like it would be like, put it under a microscope,

02:05:18   it is exactly the same thing as beef,

02:05:20   you just grew it in a petri dish,

02:05:21   you didn't have to kill an animal for it.

02:05:23   And then you can grow it and breed out

02:05:26   whatever harmful parts there are,

02:05:28   not breed because you don't have any animals,

02:05:29   but like eliminate the harmful parts

02:05:32   and make essentially synthetic meat that is also real meat

02:05:34   but is also synthetic but is healthier than real real meat.

02:05:37   And then you can have a whole subculture of people

02:05:39   who celebrate killing animals because of course,

02:05:41   they only have beef tallow McDonald's fries

02:05:44   and they only kill cows to get their beef.

02:05:45   But the rest of us will be healthier and happier.

02:05:47   - Yeah, that's the thing,

02:05:49   as I've tried to improve this area of my life recently,

02:05:52   and I think if you look at the data

02:05:56   and health studies that have been done over time,

02:06:00   and certainly environmental concerns are a big one,

02:06:02   carbon concerns, it would do the world a lot of good

02:06:06   if we ate less meat and consumed less animal products.

02:06:11   You don't have to all become vegans,

02:06:14   but just doing less, that makes a big difference.

02:06:17   Right now, especially beef, it's really,

02:06:19   really comically inefficient in terms of environmental stuff

02:06:23   but just eating less meat, not having it be

02:06:28   the bulk of every meal goes a long way.

02:06:31   Going back to Apple with leather,

02:06:33   I think it's surprising that they still have it at all

02:06:37   because I don't think they actually are selling

02:06:40   a huge quantity of leather.

02:06:42   The phone cases I think are probably

02:06:43   where they have the most of it,

02:06:45   I don't imagine they're selling a ton

02:06:47   of their laptop pouches for $300

02:06:50   or their expensive leather watch bands.

02:06:52   Most of the leather is probably just phone cases.

02:06:56   And Apple's phone cases are nice,

02:06:58   but they're also more expensive than the competition,

02:07:01   and typically, most people don't wanna spend

02:07:04   the Apple price on their phone case.

02:07:06   They usually buy some other case 'cause it's cheaper.

02:07:09   And so, they're probably not selling

02:07:11   a huge amount of leather.

02:07:13   And so that's why it makes it even more curious

02:07:15   why they keep doing it at all.

02:07:17   - I think I've had a partnership with Hermes,

02:07:19   that's all leather stuff and fancy.

02:07:20   I guess they even did the AirTags thing,

02:07:22   isn't that one leather too?

02:07:23   - Yeah, that's why, it feels like they're just doing it

02:07:25   for high profit accessory sales.

02:07:28   - 'Cause it's fancy, 'cause that's why,

02:07:30   I mean, same thing with cars.

02:07:31   Why did the expensive ones have leather?

02:07:32   'Cause it was fancier, and it was better in many ways,

02:07:34   and it felt more expensive,

02:07:37   and that's why it was in the fancy cars.

02:07:39   But like I said, even in the fancy cars,

02:07:40   sometimes there is a performance characteristic

02:07:42   is more important than it being fancy.

02:07:43   But Apple still seems to be hanging on it

02:07:44   just because it's a fancy thing.

02:07:46   Like how the 20th anniversary Mac had leather

02:07:48   on the trackpad area, right?

02:07:50   It's just, it was the signal from the '80s on.

02:07:53   I mean, it's always been a signal of fancy things

02:07:56   and sort of the modern era or 20th century leather.

02:08:01   But these days, I think the tide is turning

02:08:04   not because people care that much about animals,

02:08:06   but just because we can make synthetic products

02:08:08   at a reasonable price, especially for high-end goods.

02:08:11   you can afford to use a more expensive material

02:08:15   and consumerist can be and have been in many ways

02:08:18   convinced that that is fancier.

02:08:21   You know, the same sort of cache that comes with,

02:08:22   well, I have an electric car,

02:08:24   so I'm not polluting the environment or whatever.

02:08:26   That is a thing that rich people can get behind

02:08:28   and feel good about doing it.

02:08:30   And it feels fancier to them to have an electric car

02:08:32   than to have an internal combustion

02:08:33   'cause internal combustion can feel as old

02:08:35   and Tesla's are cool, right?

02:08:37   And if that Tesla comes with an interior

02:08:39   that's made from recycled golf balls or something,

02:08:41   That's a thing that they can feel,

02:08:44   they feel fancier about that.

02:08:46   They're like, oh, well, their friends get into their cool car

02:08:48   and their door handle pops out

02:08:50   and the weird lights go all around the thing.

02:08:51   They'll say, did you know this dashboard

02:08:52   is made from recycled golf balls?

02:08:54   Like, we're turning that corner now where

02:08:57   to be the cool rich person thing

02:08:59   doesn't have to be leather anymore.

02:09:01   That can be eventually, we can turn it around

02:09:03   where eventually that seems like a barbaric lower class thing

02:09:07   and you can sell the rich people the expensive thing.

02:09:09   And in the beginning, the good alternatives

02:09:11   are probably going to be more expensive than leather,

02:09:14   but you know, it trickles down, right?

02:09:15   So I think we are slowly turning that corner.

02:09:18   Especially in material science,

02:09:20   where it's not things that people are eating,

02:09:21   getting people to eat less meat

02:09:22   is gonna be much more difficult, right?

02:09:24   But in material science, we're working on that well.

02:09:26   And like I said, Marco, on the eating stuff,

02:09:28   we're making some headway there with the fake meats,

02:09:31   not necessarily the lab-grown ones,

02:09:32   but like the Impossible Burger and Beyond Burger

02:09:34   and all those other things.

02:09:35   And fast food restaurants have that as an alternative.

02:09:38   I personally think veggie burgers that don't even try

02:09:40   to be like meat are better than the fake meat ones,

02:09:42   but that's just me.

02:09:43   I know some people like the other ones.

02:09:45   - I used to agree with you.

02:09:48   - Same, which one do you like?

02:09:50   - I don't like Beyond.

02:09:52   Beyond tastes like--

02:09:54   - Smells like it.

02:09:54   - Somebody who has-- - Smells terrible.

02:09:56   - Yes, yeah, Beyond stuff is very much not for me.

02:09:59   It tastes like meat designed by people

02:10:02   who haven't tasted meat in a very long time.

02:10:03   - Yeah, and my daughter's a vegetarian,

02:10:05   and she likes Beyond the best,

02:10:06   so don't take my word for it,

02:10:07   but I personally don't like beyond.

02:10:08   - No, I'm a big fan of Impossible.

02:10:10   I use the Impossible grounds whenever I make tacos.

02:10:14   'Cause in that kind of situation, it's like, again--

02:10:17   - It's mostly the sauce.

02:10:18   - Yeah, it's mostly seasonings and accessories.

02:10:20   So it's like if the, quote, meat tastes

02:10:24   a little bit different, it's not even that different.

02:10:26   But if it tastes a little bit different, nobody cares.

02:10:28   Like it's in the context of taco night,

02:10:30   you're there for all the other stuff.

02:10:32   The meat is mostly a delivery device

02:10:34   for chili powder and salt.

02:10:35   So you're not really there, it doesn't really matter.

02:10:39   So I haven't made ground beef tacos in over a year

02:10:43   because the value of the meat is not high enough

02:10:48   to offset its costs to the world and to my mind.

02:10:53   So that's an easy substitute.

02:10:55   But for breakfast, I have just egg instead of scrambled eggs

02:10:58   because it's healthier and I like the taste better

02:11:01   in the way I make it.

02:11:02   And there's other things like the Impossible Grounds,

02:11:05   they stay in the freezer for a long time really nicely.

02:11:08   And so often I'll take out a pack of ground beef

02:11:12   to make tacos in the past and I'll make it

02:11:14   and it'll smell kind of funny 'cause maybe it wasn't

02:11:16   very good to begin with or something

02:11:17   and I sometimes don't even have to throw it out

02:11:19   'cause it smells like it's rotten or something.

02:11:20   That's never happened with Impossible stuff.

02:11:22   So it's just, there's advantages.

02:11:24   You don't have to feel weird when you're like,

02:11:28   I hate having to deal with raw chicken

02:11:30   and then having to wash everything,

02:11:32   scrub everything down so hard afterwards

02:11:34   and worry about all these bacterial infections.

02:11:37   - Yeah, if you wanna find a way

02:11:38   to reduce your meat consumption,

02:11:40   one thing that's worked for me

02:11:41   was you keep talking about all these things

02:11:42   with ground beef and I'm like,

02:11:43   oh, I very rarely have ground beef

02:11:45   and are much less than I used to is,

02:11:48   shortly after I was first married

02:11:50   and we were in our first place together,

02:11:52   both my wife and I had at various times

02:11:54   bouts of food poisoning that we attributed

02:11:56   to ground beef that we'd just eaten, often in tacos.

02:11:59   or other dishes with ground beef.

02:12:02   So eventually we just, right or wrong,

02:12:04   I'm not saying this is true,

02:12:05   because very often people misattribute

02:12:06   what gave them food poisoning.

02:12:07   They just assume it's the last thing they ate,

02:12:09   which is sometimes not the case,

02:12:10   'cause it takes a long time.

02:12:11   - Yeah, a lot of times it's like the spinach

02:12:12   that was on the burger or something.

02:12:13   - Yeah, who knows?

02:12:14   But anyway, for whatever reasons,

02:12:16   both of us just kind of got turned off to ground beef

02:12:18   and just basically slowly but surely eliminated everything

02:12:21   that we were eating that had ground beef in it

02:12:22   with the possible exception of hamburgers.

02:12:25   And it was just because of bad experience

02:12:27   with the food poisoning.

02:12:28   And yeah, foodborne illnesses come on vegetables too.

02:12:31   - In all fairness, there's lots of reasons

02:12:33   not to eat ground beef.

02:12:33   It's really quite dark.

02:12:36   - But I don't, I very rarely have hamburger,

02:12:38   I have hot dogs instead, which is not any better, I realize.

02:12:41   (laughing)

02:12:42   But anyway, I just say like,

02:12:44   this is how people change their diets.

02:12:48   You eventually get to the point where the thing

02:12:51   that you used to like starts to turn you off.

02:12:53   - Yeah, that's where I am with a lot of this stuff.

02:12:56   And it's not, sometimes that can be unhealthy,

02:12:58   you shouldn't really be grossed out by foods

02:13:01   that there's nothing particularly gross about them,

02:13:03   and my experience of misattributing food poisoning

02:13:07   to ground beef is obviously not ideal.

02:13:09   But all this is to say is if you think like,

02:13:11   oh, I can't possibly live without insert food here,

02:13:13   you'd be surprised how you can change over time,

02:13:16   and it's, you know, it becomes,

02:13:18   it doesn't become a thing that you have to work to do

02:13:20   if you're just actually turned off by it

02:13:22   and more turned on by some other food.

02:13:24   Like it no longer becomes a thing

02:13:26   that you have to make an effort to do.

02:13:27   - Yeah, and I think, again,

02:13:29   like I think it's very important to think

02:13:30   about this kind of stuff as, you know,

02:13:32   think when you are making a choice about food.

02:13:36   Consider things like the environmental cost

02:13:39   more than we have in the past.

02:13:41   And that's not to say like, you know,

02:13:42   if I go to a steakhouse, I'm gonna get a filet mignon.

02:13:45   I'm gonna get a real steak,

02:13:46   and I'm gonna eat it and I'm gonna enjoy it.

02:13:47   - I thought you said you're gonna get a real steak.

02:13:49   You said you're gonna get filet mignon, which isn't--

02:13:50   - No, there it is. - No, the reason,

02:13:51   okay, no, the reason I go with filets

02:13:53   is that first of all, they're good and I don't care.

02:13:55   And second of all, they're the smallest steak offered

02:13:57   'cause I wanna have the most room for sides.

02:14:00   I don't want to have 16 ounces of cow in my stomach

02:14:02   and blocking out all the other stuff from getting in.

02:14:05   The whole reason to go to steak houses

02:14:06   is to get sides and stuff and the steak is good too.

02:14:08   - I disagree, but okay.

02:14:10   - Anyway, but the point is it's important for,

02:14:14   as we, in our climate realities that we're in

02:14:18   and our environmental realities that we're in,

02:14:19   it's important for people to realize,

02:14:21   okay, this type of thing is more costly to the world

02:14:26   or morals or my own health in some way

02:14:29   than these other choices I could make.

02:14:31   And so obviously we're all humans, we like good things.

02:14:34   We're gonna get the unhealthy things sometimes,

02:14:36   but if there are good alternatives

02:14:37   that we can get other times,

02:14:39   we should probably be doing a lot more of that

02:14:40   than we have been doing.

02:14:41   - Yeah, this is an interesting scenario.

02:14:43   I just wanna bring this up as you keep talking

02:14:44   about making different personal choices.

02:14:46   Unlike things like energy consumption,

02:14:49   where it was an actual explicit strategy

02:14:52   of fossil fuel companies to introduce the concept

02:14:56   of a carbon footprint to make us all think

02:14:57   that our individual personal choices

02:14:59   about our recycling and living

02:15:00   is the way to prevent global warming.

02:15:03   It's basically just a way to distract people from saying,

02:15:04   "Don't regulate us as fossil fuel companies.

02:15:06   "This will be solved by you making individual choices.

02:15:09   "There's no systemic change we should make.

02:15:11   "You should just be more careful and take shorter showers.

02:15:14   "That's the only way to save the world."

02:15:16   That's a load of crap.

02:15:17   Not to say that we shouldn't make individual choices

02:15:19   that are good for the environment,

02:15:20   just to say that it's absolutely not the solution.

02:15:22   The real solution is to regulate fossil fuel companies

02:15:24   and actually care about climate change at a systemic level.

02:15:27   That's the only way to fix it.

02:15:29   But, and that's because individuals have very little control

02:15:33   about how they get their energy.

02:15:34   It's kind of like cable internet access, but worse.

02:15:36   It's like if you don't want to use fossil fuels

02:15:38   to heat your home, very often that is the only solution

02:15:42   that is economically viable for you

02:15:44   in your place at your income level, right?

02:15:46   Not everyone can just like,

02:15:47   I'm gonna live in a solar home and everything's gonna be,

02:15:49   that's incredibly expensive, right?

02:15:51   Sometimes all you can get is,

02:15:52   well, you can get oil or natural gas

02:15:54   and you don't have control of that

02:15:55   'cause this is huge utilities and fossil fuel companies

02:15:57   with huge subsidies from the government

02:15:58   and blah, blah, blah, right?

02:16:00   But in the case of food,

02:16:03   the only thing that can change the variety

02:16:06   of the food we get are changes in demand, right?

02:16:09   If nobody wants to eat mealworms,

02:16:11   they're not gonna spend, you know,

02:16:13   like 50% of the acreage of your country raising mealworms

02:16:16   because nobody wants to eat them, right?

02:16:19   Lots of people want to eat cows.

02:16:21   They're gonna use up a large portion of some land somewhere

02:16:24   to raise those cows to sell to you.

02:16:26   Your individual choices may not matter,

02:16:29   but unlike the case with fossil fuel companies,

02:16:32   it's not like you're gonna be stuck in a situation

02:16:34   where you say, "Well, I have to eat beef

02:16:35   "'cause it's the only thing I can buy."

02:16:36   Now, it is true that things that are healthy

02:16:38   tend to be more expensive.

02:16:40   In America, you can get corn and everything.

02:16:42   Everything you eat can be made of corn, right?

02:16:44   'Cause it's subsidized and it's not that great.

02:16:46   - Everything you wear can be made of corn.

02:16:48   Like your house can be made of corn.

02:16:50   - And so there is a systemic issue there,

02:16:53   especially with the cost.

02:16:53   'Cause if you wanna eat fresh fruits and vegetables,

02:16:55   it's way more expensive than just eating corn syrup

02:16:57   and corn for everything, right?

02:16:59   But on mass, like if we start eating less beef,

02:17:03   that will cause less beef to be produced

02:17:05   and so on and so forth.

02:17:05   And there is no place where you live where you're like,

02:17:08   well, even though there's no demand for beef,

02:17:10   the beef manufacturers push it on us

02:17:12   and it's the only food we can buy.

02:17:13   That's true of corn, but not beef, right?

02:17:15   So setting aside corn for now,

02:17:17   which is technically a vegetable,

02:17:18   it is mostly just a sugar delivery device.

02:17:21   Changing our collective individual choices

02:17:23   about how much meat we eat

02:17:24   can actually have a material influence

02:17:27   on the food that is made,

02:17:29   because over the centuries,

02:17:30   the food that is made has been the food,

02:17:32   in some respects, that is demanded by the people.

02:17:34   Again, they give the meal war example,

02:17:35   because in this country,

02:17:36   we tend not to eat a lot of insects, right?

02:17:39   which is why we don't manufacture a lot of insects

02:17:41   for eating, but it's not because they're not good food

02:17:43   and healthy and sustainable and economical or whatever,

02:17:46   it's just because people in this country don't wanna eat

02:17:48   insects for the most part, right?

02:17:49   That's the only reason, right?

02:17:51   Whereas no matter how much you like or dislike

02:17:53   natural gas and oil and coal or whatever,

02:17:56   it's friggin' everywhere in this country

02:17:58   because our individual choices can't change that

02:18:00   because there's a huge infrastructure behind that

02:18:02   and wherever you live, it's not like you have a choice

02:18:04   of 17 different kinds of electricity and heating

02:18:06   in most cases.

02:18:07   Maybe you have a choice of one or two.

02:18:09   - But the Impossible Burger, if you haven't tried it,

02:18:11   try it out, they sell the, what is this,

02:18:15   a Whopper at Burger King?

02:18:17   Actually, that reminds me-- - Yeah, Burger King sells it.

02:18:18   A lot of places sell Impossible Burgers now,

02:18:20   and you can, in many US grocery stores,

02:18:22   you can get the one pound, like little squares of ground,

02:18:26   you know, quote, beef, but Impossible meat,

02:18:29   and we always keep a few of those in our freezer.

02:18:32   It's great, like it's, again, for stuff like tacos,

02:18:34   it's fine, I wouldn't have a massive stake out of it,

02:18:38   I think that might be a little bit weird.

02:18:39   (laughs)

02:18:41   And a whole other thing too is meat substitutes

02:18:45   are oftentimes not significantly healthier

02:18:49   in certain metrics than meat.

02:18:51   It's not like you can, 'cause usually there's high amounts

02:18:54   of oil and stuff in them.

02:18:55   - There's just different kinds of fat and sugars

02:18:57   and everything there.

02:18:58   - Right, but what's nice is that they can help you

02:19:02   not only have a meat-like experience

02:19:05   if you don't wanna be eating meat,

02:19:06   but also they feel like kind of a stepping stone

02:19:09   in many ways to a more vegetable-heavy diet.

02:19:13   Like they allow you to go from the traditional American diet

02:19:18   more easily to like, hey, you know what,

02:19:19   maybe every meal doesn't have to have a big block of meat

02:19:23   next to a big pile of dairy, you know, like--

02:19:26   - Cheese, yep. - Yeah.

02:19:27   Maybe there is an alternative way to eat

02:19:29   that's a lot healthier than this.

02:19:31   And it's nice to have it be like a stepping stone

02:19:34   on that way.

02:19:35   You know, you shouldn't be eating impossible tacos

02:19:38   every single night because you shouldn't be eating tacos

02:19:39   every single night.

02:19:40   And you shouldn't be eating like burgers every night either

02:19:44   and veggie burgers are not significantly better

02:19:47   in certain metrics.

02:19:48   But you know, it's a good stepping stone on the way there.

02:19:51   And you know, in the same way that really nice fake leather

02:19:54   has been a good stepping stone in that area.

02:19:56   And again, going back to where we were starting all this,

02:20:00   Yeah, I do think apples should stop using leather

02:20:02   because it's not that important to them

02:20:04   and there's lots of good alternatives

02:20:06   and there's lots of benefits to stop using it.

02:20:09   - If I were to get someone writing in to tell us

02:20:10   how much water almonds used in California

02:20:13   and how it's starving out the rest of the state

02:20:15   because for every almond you eat

02:20:16   it's like 10 bajillion gallons of water or whatever

02:20:19   and yes, lots of things can be grown

02:20:21   unsustainably or in environmentally harmful ways.

02:20:24   - Just don't ruin coconut for me.

02:20:25   So many good things are made of coconut now.

02:20:27   Just make, if coconut is somehow horrible,

02:20:29   Please don't tell me.

02:20:30   - We bought a whole coconut on a lark from the supermarket

02:20:34   and were very disappointed

02:20:35   when it was completely rotten inside.

02:20:36   That's sad.

02:20:37   - That's a bummer.

02:20:38   Hey, you know, talking about the Impossible Burger

02:20:40   and the Whopper reminded me of our friends at Fun Fact,

02:20:45   where they put the follow-up at the end,

02:20:48   which is unequivocally the wrong place for follow-up,

02:20:50   and I tried to convince--

02:20:51   - Like we follow any rules,

02:20:53   it's all over the friggin' show.

02:20:54   - Well, so here we are, I've got some follow-out,

02:20:56   as it turns out.

02:20:57   - I tried to put it at the beginning,

02:20:58   but it's an uphill battle.

02:21:00   - But I would just like to say to our friends

02:21:03   over at Fun Fact, Eric and Alan,

02:21:06   that follow-up belongs to the beginning.

02:21:08   Come on, get with the program.

02:21:09   But anyways, they did a small segment on episode 52,

02:21:12   which aired a few days ago,

02:21:14   with regard to the origins of the word vamp,

02:21:17   which I think I had kind of casually asked

02:21:19   what the origin of that was,

02:21:20   or maybe it was one of you guys, probably John,

02:21:22   asked the origin of the word vamp,

02:21:23   and they discussed that on episode 52.

02:21:25   And I meant to mention that during follow-up,

02:21:27   and I forgot, and so I'm putting it at the end,

02:21:29   which is the wrong place for it.

02:21:30   And also, I wanted to quickly congratulate

02:21:32   our mutual friend, David Sparks,

02:21:34   who has decided to shut down his law firm

02:21:37   and go completely and utterly independent

02:21:39   with Max Sparky and Max Sparky Labs.

02:21:41   So we'll put a link in the show notes to check that out,

02:21:43   and I just wanted to quickly put a shout out

02:21:46   for him as well.

02:21:47   - The question is, will he be getting more or less sleep?

02:21:49   No. (laughing)

02:21:50   I mean, I guess he won't be staying up at night

02:21:51   worrying about his clients if he read his post,

02:21:53   but doesn't, maybe he'll be up all night

02:21:55   making more of his guides and stuff.

02:21:57   - Mm-hmm.

02:21:59   I don't know, but I just wanted to say congratulations

02:22:01   'cause I'm really excited for him.

02:22:02   - Yeah, I love when friends go independent, Casey.

02:22:05   (laughing)

02:22:06   Took you long enough, but you eventually got here.

02:22:08   - Hey, we gotta work on Jon now.

02:22:10   - Oh, that's a lost cause.

02:22:12   We're never gonna get Jon.

02:22:13   (laughing)

02:22:16   - It's so true.

02:22:17   - Do you think we're gonna get worse feedback

02:22:20   on telling people you should probably eat less meat

02:22:22   than when we-- - No, no, people are fine

02:22:24   with that.

02:22:25   dangerous to say on a podcast like that or like tabs versus spaces we're just

02:22:30   gonna get the the one person is gonna send us the thing about almonds but then

02:22:34   they're gonna hear me talk about it maybe later and feel bad almonds are

02:22:37   almonds are overrated it's not just almonds that's lots of things that water

02:22:41   you if you live in a desert state and they redirect a lot of your water for

02:22:44   agriculture people are gonna be angry about whatever you're redirecting to

02:22:47   yeah don't grow almonds in the freaking desert by sucking all the water away

02:22:50   from the one river in your state but that's more of a California problem than

02:22:52   an almond problem, I feel like.

02:22:54   - Also, almond milk is overrated.

02:22:56   Coconut milk is awesome.

02:22:57   - Oh yeah, I heard the top four.

02:22:58   - Yeah, well, I don't particularly like coconut though.

02:23:02   So I drink almond milk because I don't like coconut.

02:23:04   - I don't like coconut flavored things

02:23:08   or like those like crunchy toasted coconut bits

02:23:12   that are in some candies.

02:23:13   - I'm gonna say you don't like coconut

02:23:15   'cause you're the one who didn't like the toasted coconut

02:23:17   'cause you felt it like it was chewing on like little fibers.

02:23:19   That's the whole good thing about coconut.

02:23:21   So I feel like you don't like coconut.

02:23:22   If you don't like that, you don't like coconut.

02:23:23   - You have no idea how much coconut I consume.

02:23:25   Trust me, I like coconut.

02:23:26   - But who is the one, maybe it was Tiff

02:23:28   who didn't like the little crunchy stringy bits?

02:23:30   - There's lots of different, I mean, look, earlier today,

02:23:32   like I, see, John, you bought a whole coconut

02:23:35   and you cut it open and I'm sure that process sucked

02:23:38   and then inside you couldn't eat it, right?

02:23:40   The coconut is the one remaining thing I will defend

02:23:43   as worth getting pre-cut at the grocery store.

02:23:46   - Well, I mean, it needs to be cut, dried,

02:23:50   shredded and toasted.

02:23:51   - Then we're onto something.

02:23:53   - No, Whole Foods sells, I'm sure other grocery stores sell,

02:23:56   like you know, cut up chunks of coconut meat.

02:23:58   - I don't like that, no.

02:23:59   I want any of it to be dried, shredded, and toasted.

02:24:01   - Well that's different, that's a whole different food.

02:24:02   'Cause what I-- - It's not all about the coconut.

02:24:04   That's the way, that's the good way for half coconut.

02:24:06   I like-- - People in the chat

02:24:07   are saying coconut oil, coconut oil is fine

02:24:10   for certain things.

02:24:10   No, but what I-- - Don't live for anything.

02:24:11   - I just like, I like coconut chunks

02:24:14   and I like coconut milk.

02:24:15   And not, when I say coconut milk,

02:24:18   I'm talking about like the Thai kind,

02:24:21   like where it's like the ingredients are coconut and water,

02:24:24   not like the like in a big bowling pin shaped bottle

02:24:28   and it's like this is some coconut

02:24:30   along with blended with some almonds

02:24:32   and also blended with a bunch of like gums

02:24:35   and salts and preservatives.

02:24:37   No, that's not, I'm talking about coconut and water

02:24:40   in a solution.

02:24:41   Like that is coconut milk

02:24:43   and it's really good in lots of things,

02:24:45   including by itself sometimes and yeah,

02:24:49   And those coconut chunks, I also like.

02:24:51   Even coconut water can be delicious,

02:24:53   although it's usually pretty sugary.

02:24:54   I don't get a lot of that, but.

02:24:55   - Do you like coconut on like a, what is it,

02:24:58   like the German chocolate cake?

02:24:59   Does that the one that has the coconut in the icing?

02:25:00   - That is the one, and no.

02:25:02   - Do you like Mounds or Almond Joy?

02:25:04   - No.

02:25:05   - See, I'm gonna say you don't like coconut,

02:25:06   'cause that is the quintessential.

02:25:07   - Yeah, I'm kinda coming around to John on this one.

02:25:10   - I love Mounds, Almond Joy, and whatever that cake is.

02:25:13   - Almond Joy's got nuts, Mounds don't.

02:25:16   - I sang that song to my kids,

02:25:18   of saying, just why does everyone my age know this song?

02:25:20   'Cause it was an ad on TV, and I think they said

02:25:23   they were confused about which one had the almonds.

02:25:25   I'm like, I'm not confused.

02:25:27   Let me sing you a song.

02:25:28   And then I had to go find it on YouTube,

02:25:30   'cause it was like in different versions.

02:25:32   - Oh, great example of what I was just saying

02:25:34   about coconut stuff and food stuff.

02:25:36   So tonight for dinner, I made butternut squash soup.

02:25:39   Now, I wanted like a good protein source,

02:25:42   and so I used chicken bone broth as like the broth base,

02:25:45   because that's a fantastic protein source,

02:25:47   especially if you're trying to be somewhat healthy.

02:25:49   Yeah, it's chicken based, but that's one thing

02:25:51   where vegan options don't really have a good

02:25:54   protein heavy broth, that's not really available yet,

02:25:57   as far as I know, if you know it, otherwise please tell me.

02:26:00   But instead of using cream, as you would traditionally

02:26:02   use in butternut squash soup, I used a bit

02:26:04   of coconut cream, which is basically the coconut version

02:26:08   of heavy cream, like in a can, it's weird,

02:26:11   it comes in these little skinny cans,

02:26:12   but I used coconut cream instead,

02:26:14   and you couldn't tell any difference at all.

02:26:16   - Yeah, when you're baking the stuff,

02:26:17   like we have so many milk alternatives

02:26:19   and half the time when I'm baking things,

02:26:20   I would just substitute something for the milk

02:26:22   and no one can ever tell.

02:26:23   - Right, like there's so many contexts

02:26:26   where we use animal stuff that we don't really need to,

02:26:30   like it's not really making a big difference

02:26:32   whether we use it or not.

02:26:33   - This is a case very often though

02:26:34   where milk actually is cheaper than the fancy milks,

02:26:36   especially because the fancy milks are for fancy people.

02:26:39   And so sometimes getting almond milk or coconut milk

02:26:42   or whatever is way more expensive

02:26:44   than getting actual milk.

02:26:45   - Oh yeah, and that's a whole different issue as well.

02:26:47   Obviously that has to be considered.

02:26:49   And of course there's the issue of like,

02:26:51   how various farm subsidies make certain things

02:26:55   way cheaper than they naturally would be.

02:26:58   - Yeah, that's what we're gonna have.

02:26:59   People are gonna say, "You think meat isn't subsidized?"

02:27:01   Yes, all the things that are bad for us are subsidized.

02:27:04   - Yeah, oh yeah.

02:27:05   Yeah, milk is like suspiciously cheap.

02:27:09   If you don't care about getting organic milk,

02:27:11   if you just get like any milk, it is like weirdly cheap.

02:27:14   eggs too, you know.

02:27:16   - I mean, and milk is like, I'm not putting down milk.

02:27:18   I love regular milk and it is a good, cheap, healthy food

02:27:22   that you don't need to kill the animals for.

02:27:23   It doesn't mean that animals aren't treated terribly

02:27:25   the way you milk them, but that can be improved.

02:27:26   Like, I feel like milk and butter and stuff like that

02:27:28   is the type of thing where it is possible to have a world

02:27:32   in which we get butter and milk in a way

02:27:36   that is not cruel to animals and that still is also

02:27:39   very cheap and makes good use of land.

02:27:41   We're like, that's the type of thing.

02:27:43   it's like a renewable resource type of food product.

02:27:47   And the alternatives, almond milk, coconut milk,

02:27:49   all those other alternatives often have more sugar added

02:27:52   and lots of artificial things and are expensive

02:27:54   to make and produce and are expensive to buy.

02:27:56   So I feel like there's definitely still a gap there.

02:27:59   - Oh, totally.

02:28:00   - Although more people are lactose intolerant these days

02:28:01   too so that could solve itself with demand

02:28:03   based on lactose intolerance.

02:28:05   - Yeah, totally.

02:28:06   And as you mentioned, there are certainly a lot of asterisks

02:28:08   on the like, well, it's better for the animals.

02:28:10   Yes, it's better than killing them,

02:28:12   But there is still a lot of area for improvement in that.

02:28:15   Yeah.

02:28:16   Especially anything involving chickens.

02:28:19   (beeping)