457: The World's Greatest Conference Call


00:00:00   Why don't I save pants for next next show? Because I have I have I need to spend a little bit more time with my

00:00:07   my pants too.

00:00:10   Okay, and all the good stuff is in there we're not even in the bootleg all the good stuff is happening before the bootleg for God's sakes.

00:00:19   Does anybody in your life like have you ever heard other people in your life

00:00:27   who seem to know how to watch Apple TV+ shows?

00:00:32   I don't know how to watch Apple TV+ shows.

00:00:35   So if there is anyone in my life that does know I would like to know the secret please.

00:00:39   Even celebrities who are on some of the shows like cast members who are out promoting them and stuff like that.

00:00:44   First of all, no one calls it Apple TV+.

00:00:47   So people who are even in the shows will say like, oh it's a new show on Apple.

00:00:52   Yeah, that's what you say. It's on it's on Apple and I've heard other I've heard like

00:00:58   occasionally, I've heard someone else like around me and I'll be like, oh, yeah this new show it's on Apple.

00:01:02   Mm-hmm. I guess we're stuck with that freezing for the rest of this products lifetime now.

00:01:08   But I also like no one knows how to watch it.

00:01:13   Like if I have to explain to someone or you know

00:01:16   it's even worse when I overhear other people trying to explain to each other how to watch an Apple TV+ show.

00:01:22   No one knows. No one even knows not only where to watch it, but no one even knows if they are

00:01:27   like if they have that service or not.

00:01:30   And I overheard one conversation about a month ago where

00:01:34   the like the guy who was trying to ask how to watch the show to his friend

00:01:39   he thought that the only way to watch Apple TV+ was to buy a new iPhone and he's like

00:01:45   I'm not really ready for an upgrade yet. So, you know, I don't I don't have app. I don't have that.

00:01:50   Like they've they've done such a poor job of

00:01:53   naming it, marketing it, messaging it. Like it's so bad.

00:01:58   No one knows where to watch this, how to get the service, why to get the service.

00:02:04   Like it's it's so hard. Like I you know as we nerds try to like recommend to oh, hey

00:02:09   you should go watch Ted Lasso or whatever. It's so hard because no one knows. Oh, yeah, it's on Apple.

00:02:15   Admittedly I've been programmed by Plex and I know that there are people in this world who think that Plex is a UX nightmare

00:02:21   and maybe you're right. I don't know. It is. But but for me Plex makes sense because what do I want to watch?

00:02:26   Do I want to watch a movie or a television show? If I want to watch a movie

00:02:29   I go to the movie section. If I want to watch a television show

00:02:32   I go to the television section and then everything's sorted by title like adults would want.

00:02:37   Whereas Netflix and Apple TV+ are actively competing to see which one is more hostile and

00:02:44   infuriating to just find the thing you were just watching before.

00:02:47   Like I feel like the only way I've ever successfully watched Ted Lasso on Apple TV+ is by doing a

00:02:52   I can't say the word as a hey dingus search for Ted Lasso.

00:02:58   And maybe I'm an idiot and that very well could be but I feel like there is no

00:03:01   rhyme or reason to the UX to the Apple TV app on the Apple TV device.

00:03:07   Hell the fact that I have to specify the Apple TV app on the Apple TV device is a UX nightmare to begin with.

00:03:12   It's just so bad. No wonder everyone's confused, right? Even nerds have a hard time keeping this stuff straight.

00:03:19   What chance do regular people have?

00:03:21   I thought that's what you were gonna say is what exactly what Casey said is like assuming you know

00:03:26   everything about the service and you subscribe to it and you've done all the things that I thought the problem was

00:03:32   how do I watch a show

00:03:34   given that I know all that stuff because I know all that stuff and

00:03:36   like the way you would have to do it say I'm watching on my iPad. Well, there's like a black icon

00:03:41   that's like the little black Apple TV icon, right? I can get that far. I can say okay

00:03:47   that's probably the thing I have to tap to watch shows on Apple TV plus the service, right?

00:03:51   But the problem is that app is not like the Netflix app when you watch the Netflix app

00:03:56   it shows you shows that are on Netflix when you tap that icon

00:03:59   which as far as I'm aware is the only way to watch Apple TV plus shows am I correct in that?

00:04:04   I think so. I think? Well was it on Apple platforms that is like

00:04:07   Yeah on an iPad. I'm watching on my iPad.

00:04:09   Like that's the only way to do it, but when you launch that it's not like Netflix

00:04:12   You don't just see like the 17 shows that are on Apple TV plus you see tons of crap

00:04:17   You see it's because originally that app was like oh

00:04:19   We're gonna show you stuff from Hulu and all you know

00:04:21   It's trying to like be the one place you go for all your television except for Netflix, which is a pretty big except

00:04:26   Or Plex. Yeah, exactly. That's a much smaller except let's be honest. It is but it means something to me darn it

00:04:32   But if I just want to go there because that's the place where I go to watch Ted Lasso if Ted Lasso is not the banner

00:04:37   At the top of the page. Yeah, there's no way to find it

00:04:40   There's well, so they added an app item called Apple TV plus originals or something

00:04:44   They added that nav item later in the life of the app to say

00:04:46   Okay

00:04:47   If you do want to narrow the field down to just the shows that Apple puts out you can tap this thing

00:04:51   But of course that just narrows it down to a subset of you know, like here's the Apple the Apple TV plus shows

00:04:57   But there's a lot of those shows. What about the one that I was just watching?

00:05:00   Yeah, and then we talked about this in rectus like they don't have an equivalent of Netflix is my list

00:05:05   They have a thing called up next which tries to be similar but isn't really similar in lots of bad ways

00:05:09   But that I think is that the final hurdle is like say, you know everything about it. You've successfully subscribed to it

00:05:15   There is no icon you can press that just shows you the Apple TV plus shows which I think

00:05:19   Hurts the service like they have to I mean

00:05:22   I don't know if they have to decide whether they want to be the one app where you go for everything with these exceptions

00:05:27   Or if they want to be you know, maybe they should have like a standalone app

00:05:31   This is called the Apple TV plus app that only shows those shows and leave the the quote-unquote TV app

00:05:37   To be there if people are because honestly I never I never go to the TV app to watch a Hulu show

00:05:43   Right, I go to the Hulu app and Netflix

00:05:45   I have to go to the Netflix app and Plex I have to go to the Plex app

00:05:48   So I feel like they have lost that war to try to make like one

00:05:52   You know one starting point for all your TV, especially on devices like iPads iPhones

00:05:56   Yeah, I couldn't agree more and I think perhaps like the charitable read on this is that the Apple TV app is designed for people

00:06:04   Who are kind of omnivores and just want something to watch and they don't really give a crap

00:06:08   what because I feel like it would probably do pretty well in that scenario because it had it's very pretty and it highlights various and

00:06:15   Sundry things you can watch but for me

00:06:18   I'm only opening that app if I specifically want to watch like Ted lasso or for all mankind or morning show or what have you and

00:06:24   For that experience. It's just completely inscrutable in the same way that

00:06:29   Netflix seems to go back and forth between I haven't used the Netflix app in a little while now

00:06:33   But it seems to go back and forth between we will show you exactly what you want as though we're reading your mind

00:06:37   Which is amazing or more often than not?

00:06:39   Here's a bunch of random crap and it's anyone's guess if I need to swipe up or down to get to the thing

00:06:44   I was just watching an hour ago. Like it's so frustrating

00:06:47   I don't feel like this is a hard problem to solve and yet here we are

00:06:52   We should probably move on we should talk about things that are happy and you know, what's happy

00:06:56   What's happy is that we are introducing yet another tier of ATP membership

00:07:01   We're doing the pre bootleg bootleg now

00:07:03   And that's because we were just talking

00:07:05   Before this show and there was a bunch of funny stuff that we didn't even get in the bootleg and I'm sorry about that

00:07:10   So we're not actually introducing the pre bootleg bootleg

00:07:12   But that was my crummy segue to say that hey, you know

00:07:15   If you are an ATP member perhaps perhaps because you just bought a shirt or something like that, which by the way

00:07:19   Thank you very much everyone. That was very kind of you

00:07:22   You should be aware that not only do you get a bootleg which is of not the best audio quality

00:07:27   But you also get an ad free feed if you so desire and it seems like a lot of people weren't aware of that

00:07:33   So if you become an ATP member at ATP FM slash join I am kidding

00:07:37   Of course about the pre bootleg bootleg, but I am serious that there is a bootleg that is that is put up

00:07:43   I usually before we're even off the call like we'll sign off for the live people

00:07:46   The three of us will chitchat for five or ten minutes and usually by the time that call is done

00:07:50   the bootleg is already up and

00:07:52   if that's not your speed because the audio quality isn't the best and you know, we meander a lot and we you know

00:07:57   That Marco was a good editor for a reason because he cuts out the garbage and so there's a lot of garbage in the bootleg

00:08:03   Yeah, well also like the bootleg doesn't have usually full show notes yet. It definitely doesn't have chapters or anything like that

00:08:09   So like there are you know

00:08:10   There's there's a lot of like production niceties that go into the final version that are not in the bootleg just because they take time

00:08:15   To do so not only do you optionally get to you know

00:08:19   Listen to the bootleg if you so desire and you can do that somewhere between 12 and 24 hours before the show is released

00:08:24   But at the same time the show is released

00:08:26   You can also listen to an ad-free feed of the show if you so desire now, we like our sponsors

00:08:32   we like them quite a lot we

00:08:34   We I don't know how to say this without sounding like a turd but here we are

00:08:37   We allow them to sponsor us because we like them. I apologize for how obnoxious that sounds but you know, here I am

00:08:44   But if you don't want to listen to that you can get the ad free feed which is all of the same stuff that the regular

00:08:50   Show gets all the great edits all the chapters all the show notes and everything else

00:08:53   It's just less ads as in none and you can check that out as well if you're interested in that so ATP FM

00:08:59   Slash join so I will I will do a small bit of promotion here for the ad free feed

00:09:04   When we launched membership if you if you look around the podcast landscape many people might have noticed

00:09:10   Lots of podcasts were launching paid membership programs around the same time and the reason why we launched it if you recall

00:09:18   Right kind of like at the beginning of kovat

00:09:22   It was it was like what it's June of like the COVID starts like a few months into the into the COVID shutdowns

00:09:28   And what happened is when COVID started really hitting there was a lot of economic

00:09:33   Strife and and downturns and stuff and one of the things that happened was that a lot of advertisers

00:09:40   Decided to pause all their campaigns because they didn't know what was going on

00:09:42   Podcast ads in that period took a huge hit

00:09:46   It was very hard to sell ads many people who had booked ads wanted to cancel them across the whole industry

00:09:53   It was a really tough problem

00:09:54   And that's why you saw all these podcasters like us and like many that many of our friends and podcasters big and small

00:10:00   Launched membership programs because it just became much harder to sell ads in that time and we wanted kind of you know

00:10:06   A backup plan and an alternative. Well, I took this opportunity for any podcast that I actually listened to

00:10:12   that has an ad free feed I subscribed to get it and

00:10:16   Let me tell you it's glorious now

00:10:20   It's not a required thing if you add up all the podcasts that you might listen to and all their you know

00:10:26   Four to ten dollar a month, you know membership programs

00:10:30   Obviously that's gonna be a decent amount of money to a lot of people and so this is not a required thing

00:10:36   But it is a really nice luxury if you can swing the money

00:10:40   I highly suggest buying the ad free feeds to any podcast that you regularly listen to because it's so nice

00:10:48   Because you know, we all know that most of you listen to most of the ads most of the time

00:10:54   We also know that many of you myself included might skip an ad if you've already heard it before

00:11:01   Or if you just don't feel like hearing an ad we know that we're human. It's okay

00:11:05   Because it works because most people are the most of the time

00:11:08   We all know also it is kind of nice

00:11:11   it's a nice luxury not to have to listen to an ad if you don't need to and so I

00:11:17   strongly suggest

00:11:19   If you can swing this luxury do it

00:11:22   It's so nice to hear all your favorite shows or at least most not all of them even have this option

00:11:29   Merlin I'm looking at you for Roderick on the line, but

00:11:33   But most of your favorite shows offer this option now probably it's such a nice luxury to

00:11:39   Have your favorite shows and not have to skip an ad if you feel like it, you know every every 20 minutes or something

00:11:46   It's a really nice thing

00:11:47   So while we love our sponsors and we're very thankful to them for providing what is honestly the bulk of our of our income here

00:11:53   It is also really nice if you want a luxury product to take the ad free version

00:11:59   Even if you don't want to do it for us or if you're already doing it for us

00:12:01   I strongly suggest do it for your other podcast that you love that you listen to all the time. It's fantastic

00:12:07   I always get a note on iOS apps when I see like regular people using iOS apps

00:12:11   Obviously most iOS apps you see people running are free because most apps are free

00:12:15   But you know, they're playing like they're like a scrabble game or a solitaire game or just some you know

00:12:21   generic game checkers or Othello or whatever and there are ads all over the place and you see

00:12:26   you know as they say you see some relative playing this game over the course of weeks and you're like

00:12:31   Why don't you just pay the dollar and ninety nine cents to get rid of those ads because they're just they're obnoxious

00:12:37   They're blinking your face

00:12:38   They take up room on the screen if it's something that if it's an app that you play every single day

00:12:42   And just pay to get rid of the ads and then you find out you can't pay to get rid of the ads

00:12:46   There is no option to pay to get rid of the ads like seriously. You won't take my money like

00:12:51   That that annoys me because it's the same type situation

00:12:55   If you if you download a checkers app once and play it a few times you don't want to pay for that

00:12:59   So it's just a free app. It's fine

00:13:01   But if you pay it every single day playing it over for years

00:13:04   You will gladly pay five dollars even ten dollars just to never look at an ad so I feel like the same thing with ATP

00:13:10   If you know, you know, whatever it's a free show you listen to it. Whatever the ads are fine. You're getting you're getting it for free

00:13:16   It's good

00:13:17   But if you listen to it all the time and have listened for years and don't want to hear ads

00:13:22   There is an option for you to pay a small amount of money to not hear ads and that option

00:13:27   I'm very glad it exists for our show. Obviously any option like this takes effort to create and you know, it's not straightforward

00:13:33   You have to have a membership or oh, yeah, yeah

00:13:35   so we already paid that cost but I kind of wish every every free thing on iOS in particular had the

00:13:41   option to get rid of ads for the people who want it because

00:13:44   Yeah

00:13:45   The only other alternative you have is just live with the ads forever or try to find some other app and that's never fun

00:13:51   Indeed. So sorry for a little bit of housekeeping

00:13:54   but it was brought to our attention that a lot of people didn't know that was the thing and so since we

00:13:59   Certainly have a handful of new members

00:14:02   Which we deeply deeply appreciate and despite what John says you can remain a member as long as you want

00:14:06   You do not have to cancel immediately

00:14:08   Then please feel free to check out any of these other feeds, but also check out our sponsors because they're genuinely also great

00:14:14   We are sponsored this week by square space start building your website today at squarespace.com

00:14:21   Slash ATP and your offer code ATP at checkout to get 10% off make your next move with Squarespace

00:14:28   Now Squarespace makes it super easy to make websites whether they are simple websites whether they are complex

00:14:36   Websites whether you have website making skill or whether you have no coding experience at all

00:14:42   Squarespace makes it super easy. Squarespace sites are always professionally designed regardless of your skill level again. There's no coding required anywhere here

00:14:50   There's all intuitive and easy to use tools to make them and I actually have extra experience more recently because in my household

00:14:58   We've made another Squarespace site my wife recently set up a storefront

00:15:01   So I had never used the storefront functionality before normally hosting a storefront on your own is

00:15:06   Really hard and making it on Squarespace was really easy. She did the whole thing

00:15:11   I didn't have to intervene at all as the nerd in the family

00:15:14   She did the entire thing and it's now a working storefront for shipping and physical goods around

00:15:19   You can also have storefronts for digital goods or you can make websites on Squarespace for other types of sites

00:15:24   Obviously you can make content sites podcast sites, you know business sites personal sites, whatever you need on Squarespace

00:15:30   It's so incredibly easy to make sites there and you can get started with no credit card required

00:15:36   Start a free trial and you can build the entire site in trial mode see for yourself

00:15:42   How well Squarespace will work for you when you decide to sign up for Squarespace go back to squarespace.com

00:15:49   Slash ATP and use the offer code ATP to get 10% off your first purchase

00:15:54   once again

00:15:55   That's squarespace.com slash ATP to start that free trial and go back there

00:16:01   It's great base comm slash ATP offer code ATP to get 10% off when you do decide to buy Squarespace is so great

00:16:08   Thank you so much to Squarespace for sponsoring our show make your next move with Squarespace

00:16:16   Let's do some follow-up we were talking I think it was Marco was talking about

00:16:20   Comparing Xcode build times using a stopwatch last week. Oh, yes. I should read my own show notes

00:16:25   It says as follows from this is from Abel Desmos

00:16:28   Marco you do not need a stopwatch to time Xcode builds builds Apple provides command that you can run in the terminal which shows the

00:16:34   build time in the Xcode app after build the duration is shown in the activity viewer alongside the succeeded message and

00:16:40   We'll put this in the show notes, but it's defaults right com dot apple dot dt dot Xcode show build operation duration

00:16:46   Yes, and I tried this and sure enough

00:16:48   It shows up exactly where you expect and it's pretty nice and my builds of my new thing

00:16:52   Which is officially in test flight right now. I'm making progress

00:16:55   I need an icon but nevertheless, it's we're making progress

00:16:59   That the builds are like one to three seconds oftentimes because it's a new app and it's really small and that's pretty awesome

00:17:06   So yeah, I don't know Marco if have you played with this at all?

00:17:10   Or did you see this in the show notes before four seconds ago? I did see it

00:17:13   I actually I never knew this was there because normally when I'm normally testing Xcode build times

00:17:18   Usually I will use from the terminal the Xcode build command. Yes, and and I would just use the time command

00:17:26   So I'll say time space Xcode build and then you know, my giant project path and everything else

00:17:30   So that's usually how I time it which is obviously way more precise than using my iPhone stopwatch

00:17:39   visually, you know, that's but the reason I didn't do it for these tests with the new MacBook Pros is that I had there were

00:17:46   Some kind of weird code signing thing that I couldn't get to work in Xcode build. So I ended up timing

00:17:51   Simulator builds from Xcode so knowing about this actually would have helped that so thank you for writing this in and I will do this next

00:17:59   time

00:18:00   excellent

00:18:01   So we had news over the last few days as we record that there was some sort of weird

00:18:07   memory leak happening in Monterey and I only heard bits and

00:18:10   little bits and pieces about this over the last few days and then

00:18:14   There was a blog post about this at electric light, excuse me eclectic light that talks about this John. You want to walk us through this?

00:18:21   Yeah, there may be more than one

00:18:23   Memory leak bug but there was enough people going posing screenshots of like their activity monitor showing

00:18:29   Some part of the operating system or some app using like, you know

00:18:33   Tens of gigabytes of RAM and getting that dialog that the OS throws up in your face

00:18:38   It says your system is pretty much out of memory. You should probably kill one of these apps

00:18:41   so

00:18:43   somebody the developers of Firefox did find a

00:18:47   Bug in Apple's framework that is a memory leak and it apparently has to do with setting the cursor

00:18:52   Specifically, I think if you use the accessibility features to change your cursor to something non-standard like a little bit bigger version of it or whatever

00:18:59   And you wouldn't think this would cause too much of a memory leak because cursors are small and so what maybe you're leaking a cursor

00:19:06   Image here and there but there are tiny little images. How are you gonna use gigabytes of that?

00:19:09   Two things one when you're using a web browser

00:19:12   You probably don't notice this that much but the cursor changes a lot

00:19:18   Like when you go over a link you have you get the little, you know, Mickey Mouse finger

00:19:22   Icon and then then you have the arrow the rest of the time

00:19:26   But then if you go over a text area, you have the I beam cursor

00:19:29   Or if you go over some random text you get the I beam cursor

00:19:32   So the cursor does actually change a lot when you're just browsing the web. You're not doing anything

00:19:36   You're just moving the mouse, but the cursor is changing right? And the second thing is

00:19:39   Applications and anyone who anyone who's developed a degree application probably knows

00:19:43   Applications very often do operations that are not visible

00:19:47   so it could be that the Firefox application is calling the API to set the cursor to something when it already is that cursor because

00:19:54   Most you know, it's usually a good practice to do lots of bookkeeping to say now I only want to set the cursor to the

00:20:00   Arrow cursor if it's not already the arrow cursor

00:20:02   You don't want to put that

00:20:03   Conditional in there and you don't want to do the bookkeeping to try to keep track of whether it's the arrow cursor or not

00:20:07   It's much easier to just say when the mouse enters this region set the cursor to the arrow cursor

00:20:11   Even if it was already the arrow cursor

00:20:13   Even if it's about to enter another region where you're also going to send it to the arrow cursor

00:20:16   So it could be that the app is calling set cursor many many many more times than you notice

00:20:22   It's just that most of the time it's setting the cursor to the image that it already is

00:20:25   So if this API is leaking which it appears that it is

00:20:29   It could be leaking lots and lots and lots of cursor images to the tune of multiple megabytes of RAM over the course of a day

00:20:35   Of using so this this bug has been found. It's been registered with Apple. Apparently it's reproducible

00:20:40   So that means it will probably be fixed shortly if there are any other memory leaks

00:20:44   Hopefully we'll find those as well

00:20:45   But I was excited to see this because it's great when a bug is actually found and reproduced because that means it can be fixed

00:20:51   Amen to that. All right Marco continuing our multi-week journey of your grab bag of mini topics. What do you have for us this week?

00:20:58   All right. So first I have I have a bad news and a good news thing. Oh

00:21:03   sandwiches, yes, so

00:21:06   The the bad news thing I kind of breezed by this and I've been

00:21:10   Doing a little bit of research and hearing a few other stories recently

00:21:13   My original full-sized home pods are not working very well

00:21:21   anymore and

00:21:22   This is not a recent thing. It seems it seems to have been like a a slow descent into not working very well

00:21:29   But we are an entirely home pod family now, you know, and we don't have any more

00:21:35   Amazon devices that are in active use or or even plugged in most of the time and

00:21:40   I love being a home pod family on lots of different levels for lots of different reasons

00:21:45   And number one for me obviously is you know

00:21:49   I the other systems just seem like it's cheap garbage products run by oftentimes cheap garbage II companies

00:21:56   And with you know questionable privacy and and law enforcement cooperation kind of stuff

00:22:02   so so I'm happy being in the

00:22:05   Home pod ecosystem and in the home kit ecosystem and you get all these wonderful integrations there

00:22:12   and I especially love airplay - and and

00:22:16   The the process of living with airplay as your multi speaker

00:22:22   Slash, you know casting kind of ecosystem. It's fantastic

00:22:27   and this is why I like the home pod and the sound quality that you get out of the home pod products is

00:22:33   Way better than what you get from other products at comparable sizes. I should clarify for

00:22:39   Purposes of music playback. I strongly suggest a stereo pair whether you're using the big ones or the small ones

00:22:45   But the the big a stereo pair of the big home pods while it cost an arm and a leg back when they were new

00:22:50   That's a really great sounding system for a very

00:22:55   Reasonably small size and a reasonably small like visual footprint in the room

00:23:01   So one area that we use home pods the most is on the kitchen counter

00:23:07   our kitchen is a pretty large room and two full-size home pods on the counter is

00:23:14   Is a nice match for it like, you know size and sound wise two home pod minis in this context would not be very good

00:23:21   So anyway, airplay 2 is how we do multi-room audio in our house

00:23:26   It's also how we do things like hey, I want to play a podcast from my phone

00:23:31   Onto a something loud while I'm in the shower so I can hear it or whatever

00:23:37   This is a very important thing to us now the original full-sized home pods

00:23:42   These were never fast products

00:23:44   But they have gotten

00:23:47   Significantly slower I think certain commands that you tell them they again. They've never been fast. The home pod mini is

00:23:53   again, not a fast product but substantially noticeably faster than the full-size home pod and

00:24:00   The full-size one I think has just gotten slower to respond with Siri and has gotten less reliable

00:24:06   especially it'll it'll have issues like, you know, obviously you say hey dingus stop or hey dingus play or you know,

00:24:13   you give a volume command and

00:24:15   It'll wait and then it'll duck the music down and then it'll think about it and then I'll say okay, you know, whatever

00:24:20   And then I was like music back up after a while

00:24:23   It's it's a slow process if you ask it to play something

00:24:26   It'll say okay playing, you know, whatever and you'll have like eight seconds of silence before the whatever track starts

00:24:34   There's just there's a lot of slowness to the full-size home pods some of which was always there some of which is

00:24:40   I think recently gotten worse

00:24:42   The bigger problem is that the iOS 15 series I think and whatever corresponding versions of home pod OS or audio

00:24:51   That's whatever it's called

00:24:53   Came out with it

00:24:55   Seems to have made airplay support way worse on the full-size home pod than it ever has been

00:25:00   It almost doesn't work anymore. And this is this is very disruptive. It used to be that I could

00:25:06   Easily airplay like from my iPad or iPhone to the home pod and it would be fine

00:25:13   I could retain control the whole time

00:25:15   It would be great because I could do things like as I'm like working on the counter if I have like my iPad there

00:25:19   I could just like hit the volume down button to change the home pod volume and not have to like

00:25:23   Go over and tap the home pod or use a voice command. That would be slow and take forever

00:25:27   So that kind of thing was great and that's all done through airplay also if you want to know what song is playing

00:25:33   You could just check control center or open the music app and you would see what song is playing on your device

00:25:38   So you wouldn't have to like ask again for a voice command or anything like that

00:25:41   That's also good. If you want to do things like say add that song to a playlist very very useful integration

00:25:47   this is again a huge part of the value of using home pods a

00:25:50   Lot of those things have gotten buggier in the last few months to the point where they barely work at all anymore

00:25:56   I also have a very hard time including

00:25:59   The old home pods in any airplay groupings with any other speakers the Sonos amp that's on the side of the the floor or

00:26:07   Home pod minis like whatever it is. They don't play well with others anymore with airplay. It's it's gotten very frustrating and

00:26:15   Finally, this is the the more concerning part

00:26:19   This main pair of home pods that we use most of the time in the kitchen

00:26:24   One of them will occasionally just drop out. It'll just stop playing audio for I don't know 45 seconds

00:26:31   Maybe and then then it might rejoin the group cool. I assume it's rebooting itself maybe

00:26:37   Occasionally when it drops out that is met with a loud

00:26:41   Popping sound as if the woofer maybe like gets like a bad signal like a big loud bass pop

00:26:47   So that's that's a lot of fun

00:26:50   I've heard a lot of reports

00:26:53   recently of

00:26:54   Home pods dying like that the full-size ones another thing I've heard I haven't verified this myself yet

00:27:01   I've also heard that Apple cannot replace them under warranty anymore that you know

00:27:05   They've because they've been discontinued for long enough that they literally don't have any to replace them with or at least they're not replacing them

00:27:10   I haven't verified that but it sure seems like you know

00:27:14   This product has been discontinued for some time now

00:27:17   all of them are probably out of warranty now or at least most of them are but I

00:27:22   I really like the way they sound they are really really good for

00:27:27   What they are for a voice controlled

00:27:31   you know all-in-one kind of speaker that can also work in a stereo pair and looks nice enough in the kitchen and doesn't have a

00:27:37   big box and

00:27:39   It is driving me nuts that a that I think mine might be dying

00:27:44   B even if they're not actually physically dying

00:27:48   they're not working as well as they were before due to what seems like software issues and

00:27:53   See if they do die

00:27:56   I can't replace them with anything comparable because nothing comparable exists on the market today

00:28:02   they're both making them worse through neglect and

00:28:05   There's no replacement. It kind of sucks that this product that was not

00:28:09   Inexpensive and is only maybe three years old the ones with the ones I have maybe something like that three me four at the most

00:28:16   I would expect a longer lifespan out of something like this. It doesn't have a lot of computing needs. It doesn't have a lot of

00:28:23   Moving software needs there's no reason. Oh, it doesn't even have a battery

00:28:27   so there's no reason for this product to degrade over only a handful of years to a point where it breaks or is

00:28:33   not very good at its primary functions, that's it needs a longer lifespan than that and

00:28:38   Number two if Apple is gonna keep having this product line exist

00:28:43   Well keep up with it. The HomePod mini is a great product for small spaces

00:28:49   It is not a great product for medium and large spaces

00:28:53   It is it just is too small to have good sound for larger spaces

00:28:58   It just can't do it and it's also, you know, it's it's a simplified cut down

00:29:02   Version in the way its speakers are designed

00:29:06   Hat like how it doesn't even doesn't even have dedicated woofer and something like that. Like there's just there's weird

00:29:12   Compromises to it that makes sense as part of a product line

00:29:15   But are not sufficient for it to be the entire product line

00:29:19   So fix the software on the original HomePod for God's sakes

00:29:23   I know there aren't many of them out there, but they're really good for those of us who have them

00:29:27   Okay, so please fix the software so they can be at least as good as they were when we bought them

00:29:31   So that's number one. Number two, please for the love of God

00:29:36   Continue the HomePod line and expand it give us a replacement for this product if it's not going to work very well

00:29:43   Or if the software that you want to make is too slow to run and it's I think has like a little a8 processor in there

00:29:49   Okay, you know it's it's X years old fine

00:29:53   You know

00:29:53   It will eventually need to be upgraded give us an upgrade because I want this product line to continue it is

00:29:59   For my purposes, which I know is not everyone's but for my purposes it is the best product line out there for this

00:30:06   but the opens don't work anymore and part of that seems to be software on them a

00:30:11   Bigger part of that seems to be iOS and it's handling of airplay

00:30:15   Whatever it is

00:30:16   Please make them work and please let this product line continue because when my HomePods die

00:30:21   I bet the new ones won't be available yet

00:30:24   If they're if like if they're planning on having some kind of new big-sized HomePod

00:30:28   Doesn't seem like it's anytime soon that it's gonna come out

00:30:32   and I I bet at least one of mine dies within maybe six months and

00:30:36   I'm gonna be very sad when that happens because there literally is nothing else in the market to replace them

00:30:41   May I tag on a very small airplay related complaint slash question? Sure

00:30:47   So we you know put screens imports in the back of the house a few months ago now and I got a oh

00:30:53   Shoot, it's a Belkin sound for sound source. I put in the show notes. Basically. It's a hundred dollar box

00:31:00   that's kind of what the airport Express used to be, you know what I mean where it's an airplay receiver and almost nothing else and

00:31:05   And and it works really well for the most part. It's not perfect, of course, but it works pretty well from those part

00:31:12   But the problem that I'm having is it is not infrequent that I will put like a concert on typically on Plex

00:31:18   But I'll put some video on the Apple TV, which is on the other side of the screen in porch

00:31:24   you know, it's right inside the house from screen in porch and

00:31:27   What's a video on the Apple TV, but I wanted to be broadcast not only in the living room, but also in the

00:31:31   Screened in porch, you know via this Belkin sound whatever whatever and I haven't done enough testing to see if this is a Plex problem or a

00:31:39   TV OS problem, although it strikes me as though it would be a TV OS problem

00:31:45   but if I'm doing something with video and I try to broadcast to both the speakers that the Apple TV typically plays through and

00:31:53   An airplay receiver it doesn't work for squat. It will only play outside and it will not play inside

00:32:00   It maybe this is user error, but I don't feel like this is a complex operation to accomplish for me

00:32:04   I mean and it never seems to work now if I do it with audio

00:32:08   Like if I'm playing using the Sirius XM app on the Apple TV or from playing Apple music or whatever. It works great

00:32:13   No problem

00:32:14   every time it works great and I could adjust volumes independently and everything works as it's supposed to but when the

00:32:19   Sources video rather than audio it never works and I actually have been meaning to ask a friend of the show Ryan

00:32:24   Ryan Jones about this because he was the one who pushed me to do this sort of setup and I think he was mostly right

00:32:29   But for the life of me, I cannot figure out what I'm doing wrong here

00:32:32   So if you if you have a secret people, please reach out let me know because I'd love to know

00:32:37   We are sponsored this week by Mac

00:32:40   Weldon look you're busy

00:32:43   So stop thinking about what you want to wear every day and just embrace the radically efficient Mac Weldon daily wear system

00:32:49   The daily wear system is a selection of clothing rooted in smart design made with performance fabrics and built to work together

00:32:56   From breathable t-shirts and polos to stylish button-ups and shorts underwear and beyond

00:33:01   Mac Weldon makes it easy for you to dress for work leisure and play or wherever the season takes you I

00:33:07   Personally wear Mac Weldon clothes every single day

00:33:10   I am always wearing their underwear because 100% of my underwear is theirs

00:33:13   That's how I know I wear them every day because I wear underwear every day pretty easy logic there

00:33:17   I also very frequently including right now wear their t-shirts. I love their t-shirts, especially the silver line

00:33:24   These are my base layer or my only layer on top for the warmer months

00:33:29   I love them because they are they they use actual silver fibers in the fabric blend and they're naturally antimicrobial

00:33:36   And what this means is you basically can't stink while wearing them. So it's pretty great

00:33:40   Now as the weather's getting colder, I also am wearing their wonderful warm knit line

00:33:45   I love the warm and it's like a waffle knit shirt and they have everything pants shorts everything

00:33:50   It's just a fantastic line of products and they are made to incredibly high quality standards

00:33:54   My Mac Weldon stuff lasts and lasts and lasts way out lasts everything else I have from other brands. So see for yourself

00:34:01   Buy yourself some time with the Mac Weldon daily wear system for 20% off your first order

00:34:09   visit Mac Weldon comm

00:34:11   ATP podcast and enter promo code ATP podcast

00:34:16   That's Mac Weldon comm slash ATP podcast promo code ATP podcast for 20% off your first order

00:34:23   Thank you so much to Mac Weldon for sponsoring our show Mac Weldon radically efficient wardrobing

00:34:30   We have some other Ryan Jones related follow-up though, don't we? Yes, actually good good good segue

00:34:39   So the positive side

00:34:41   Well, I mean, it's not so positive for Ryan Jones that I finally replaced weather line

00:34:46   Well, it's good because he he got it got sunset in a happy way, didn't it? Yes, exactly

00:34:51   So so weather line is has been the iOS weather app that I choose to use for years now

00:34:58   I I forgot how many years but it's been a long time because I just loved

00:35:02   That presentation like the line of the hourly forecast throughout the day

00:35:07   I love that so much even at times where the app like was not as competitive with other apps in terms of certain features

00:35:14   Whatever I always stuck with it because I just loved its design

00:35:18   And it really clicked with my brain the way I wanted to see see weather data

00:35:21   About maybe six months ago something like that

00:35:25   Ryan Jones the the main maker of weather line announced that it had been acquired and that they were shutting it down

00:35:31   Because the company that acquired it like it wasn't the kind of thing where they're just gonna keep it running like they bought it for

00:35:36   other reasons, so

00:35:38   It was gonna be shut down and we had to find new apps, you know soon and weather line. I think it's gonna run

00:35:45   For a little while for a while longer

00:35:47   I think maybe six months to a year longer

00:35:49   But because I knew that there was a an end date that was not too far off

00:35:53   I decided I should probably start planning for this and I probably shouldn't write my own

00:36:00   Because a no, I don't need the headache. I have enough to do and B

00:36:05   I would probably just make a clone of weather line and that's not a great way to spend my time either

00:36:11   So I figured that's not a good idea and I decided, you know, I've always heard that carrot weather

00:36:19   was the best weather app in the universe and

00:36:22   I've always wanted to like carrot weather, but it was never my primary app

00:36:27   like I had it installed for a while and I even paid the premium stuff so I could use certain features because I

00:36:34   Was playing with it like as a watch complication and and stuff like that

00:36:38   And but I never used the full app very much because I would you know

00:36:42   I would open it up look around and be like, yeah

00:36:44   It's this, you know, this design is not it doesn't fit me as well as weather lines design and I would close it

00:36:49   That'd be it now that weather line has a definite end and is I'm kind of forced to go elsewhere

00:36:55   I figure you know what? Let me give care to real try. Let me try

00:36:59   fully switching over to it move weather line off my front screen take off its widget get like

00:37:04   totally move it away and

00:37:07   bring in carrot and and try using only carrot and

00:37:10   What I didn't realize in the previous times I had tried carrot weather is that

00:37:17   Not only is it highly customizable in terms of the attitude

00:37:21   It gives you which I always knew that was an option like you can have it be really snarky with the text and everything or you

00:37:25   Can turn that down and have it just be neutral and tell you the data. It's also though. This was news to me

00:37:31   Also, the UI is highly customizable. That's new ish. That was just in the last

00:37:37   Three to six months. I'd say that the UI became crazy customizable

00:37:42   It used to be I think a little bit but now it's it's like a calculator construction kit sort of thing

00:37:47   It's bananas how much you can how much you can do with it. It really is

00:37:52   Extremely customizable and I was able to customize not only

00:37:56   Certain views that are that are kind of weather line like it doesn't have an exact match probably for many reasons

00:38:03   You know that would probably be in poor taste, but for a competitor to you know, clone your UI completely

00:38:08   So I understand why there's not like an exact weather line view

00:38:11   But you can you can kind of get close if that's what you're looking for

00:38:14   Which for me it is like that's how I want to see my hourly graph. So I kind of got close to weather line

00:38:19   plus it has

00:38:22   just the most features in the universe like there's so many features and

00:38:26   Carrot weather is also made by one person. It's an incredibly good app

00:38:32   It's exactly what you want out of an indie app

00:38:34   Like it's it has like, you know, good good, you know business morals behind it great development great design

00:38:41   I think you want an ADA last year

00:38:43   Like it's it's just a very well done app and my god the features there is so much there

00:38:49   So now that I've been able to customize the design into something that I like

00:38:54   I'm getting to enjoy the utility of all these features and it is so good

00:39:00   Yep, for instance one of the things forever

00:39:02   I had this I had this concept idea that of like an app I could make or some day or that I wanted to make

00:39:07   a smart watch complication

00:39:09   Slash, you know iOS widget whatever, you know, this is before we just existed

00:39:13   But you know, I was kind of picturing like an app that would just show a card or something that

00:39:17   Mainly for the watch and the idea was I wanted to be able to set

00:39:21   Priorities between different conditions that might occur and have it only display one of these things

00:39:27   So for instance if I have a timer running, I always want to see the timer

00:39:31   Okay, if I don't have a time running I don't want an icon that says set like I just want

00:39:35   Something else like either nothing or give me some other data that might be useful

00:39:39   I care a lot about what time sunset is

00:39:43   For about an hour before sunset and not at any other time of the day. I

00:39:47   Don't care when sunset is at 11 in the morning, right? I care a lot if it's raining

00:39:54   But only when it's raining if the chance of precipitation is zero, I don't care about it. I

00:40:00   Care a lot if the UV index is above like five, but I don't care all winter when it's zero to one

00:40:09   There's there's all sorts of conditions like this in weather so here at the beach wind is a very big issue

00:40:16   Like wind is something that in like in my regular previous suburban life. I never cared about wind. It was never a big deal here

00:40:23   I care a lot if it's gonna be windy tonight because that means like I might have to move stuff inside or take other

00:40:29   Preparations because windy here does not mean windy in the suburbs windy here is a whole new thing

00:40:36   So carrot weather allows you in a few places in the app including and recently in a watch complication

00:40:43   To set certain thresholds in a prioritize list to say, okay

00:40:48   tell me and put this, you know card up here or display this in the complication if

00:40:52   This value is going to be above this range or if this is gonna happen in the next 12 hours or whatever

00:40:58   It's so nice

00:41:00   You can also have that notify you and you can tell it when to tell you what range to look at

00:41:05   It's so ridiculously customizable

00:41:07   So for instance now I have one that every evening it will tell me if the wind is gonna be above a certain speed

00:41:14   Overnight that way I know

00:41:16   Maybe I should bring the trash cans in so they don't blow it on the street or something like that

00:41:19   You know that kind of thing you can customize so much about this. So I am just so

00:41:24   Happy with this app. I wish I had tried it earlier in some ways

00:41:28   like so I'm kind of burying weather line with this massive party for carrot weather, but

00:41:34   But I think also, you know as Casey as you just said like a lot of these features are pretty new to the app

00:41:39   So I think at maybe I came at exactly the right time for me. I think so

00:41:45   Yeah, but it is just so so good. I strong this is not sponsorship

00:41:48   I strongly recommend that you get care at weather and you pay for the annual whatever cost to get all the cool features

00:41:54   Because it's so so good highly recommend them strong agree on everything. You just said care whether

00:42:01   It's one of a very small subset of apps that I have been using

00:42:06   literally every day

00:42:08   Since like five plus years ago because care whether has been out a fair bit of time at this point and I feel like you know

00:42:14   It's carrot weather. It's overcast. It's tweet bot gift wrapped like off top my head amongst indie apps

00:42:20   You know not like the instagrams of the world or whatever but amongst indie apps

00:42:23   It's probably those and only a couple of others that I've used every single day

00:42:29   For forever and change and so yeah care at weather. I cannot recommend enough. It is a

00:42:36   phenomenally powerful app, you know

00:42:39   It's one of those situations where it's it's an app that also makes me incredibly angry because it's Brian Mueller right that wrote it

00:42:46   Yeah, that right. I think so

00:42:47   if I recall correctly

00:42:49   His education is nowhere near computer science or anything like it and he is so much better at his job that I am in my

00:42:57   So annoying because he is incredibly talented at not only the code but also the design and

00:43:03   And especially now that I'm really getting close to shipping something

00:43:07   It's it's infuriating in the best possible way to see how good one individual can be at doing everything

00:43:14   Like server-side stuff, you know local on-device stuff. It's just it's so good. It's so well done. It's I cannot recommend it enough

00:43:22   It's a great app to other weather app recommendations. I also used weather line for a long time

00:43:27   And I was looking for replacements. One of the ones I came upon is called weather strip. It's very similar to by the line

00:43:32   It's more complicated. There are more lines instead of just the one line

00:43:35   But it's nice. It's got a different aesthetic. I enjoy it as a good line

00:43:39   replacement for weather line and then finally the the official Apple weather app

00:43:45   Got a lot better on iOS 15. I think it's kind of my default weather app now

00:43:50   It doesn't have all the details of you know, the fancier weather apps. It doesn't have lines like weather strip does

00:43:56   It's not as customizable as caribou there obviously

00:43:59   But check those both out if you're looking for a weather app

00:44:02   Or if you've given up on the Apple and you thought it was too simple. The new version is pretty nice

00:44:06   And then we should also talk about one other quick follow-up piece we've gotten feedback

00:44:13   this was with regard to selling my computers and my MacBook Pro my

00:44:18   2020 MacBook Pro is gone. It is at its new home. And as far as I know everything's going well

00:44:22   I was saying before the show that the iMac Pro has been unplugged for a few days now

00:44:27   And I'm genuinely sad about it because I mean obviously I would say this because I'm trying to sell it

00:44:31   Nevertheless like hand to God. I love that iMac Pro so much. I really really do. It's such an incredibly nice computer

00:44:38   I love it so much and I already kind of miss it

00:44:40   And I'm sad that that it's not on my desk anymore, but I will be unloading that very soon

00:44:45   so if you're interested, please reach out but

00:44:48   People have talked to talk to us about hey, you know, we brought up eBay

00:44:52   I think Marco in particular brought up eBay a little while ago saying oh it works pretty well for Marco and

00:44:57   People have written in I can't speak for whether or not this is true

00:45:00   But a lot of people said hey, you know eBay is good as long as you get a good buyer

00:45:03   But you can very easily get a buyer that's you know

00:45:07   a con artist and the buyer will claim that like the device doesn't work or

00:45:11   Tries to return it but will just accidentally take the RAM out or the SSD out or something like that

00:45:17   And apparently eBay is extremely buyer

00:45:20   Friendly, so if you're the seller you're kind of up a creek and again

00:45:25   I have no personal experience with this one way the other but it is something to consider and

00:45:29   We've heard several recommendations for swap, which might be an American thing SWA PPA

00:45:34   If I can't sell my iMac Pro, which I haven't formally priced yet

00:45:39   But I'll probably put it on Twitter like I did the MacBook Pro and see if anyone bites and if not

00:45:43   I think I'll probably go to swap it if nobody grabs it beforehand

00:45:47   And I've heard many many people say that the fees on swap are great and the people are typically great and it's usually a much

00:45:54   Better option than eBay again. I have no personal experience either way. I'm just telling you what we're being told

00:45:58   typically with almost any kind of online sale and and

00:46:02   Definitely with anything based on credit cards

00:46:05   The buyer has way more power than the seller

00:46:09   Because of how credit cards handle disputes if the buyer says, you know

00:46:13   Hey

00:46:13   I paid for this thing with you with my credit card and

00:46:16   It came broken and the seller wouldn't take it back or it didn't come at all

00:46:19   You know the sellers a scammer in almost every case the credit card company will side with the buyer

00:46:25   And most will issue a charge back to the vendor or seller and that's why places like eBay or PayPal

00:46:31   Like if there's a dispute the buyer will win the dispute if they if they make a big enough stink like that. So

00:46:38   Typically, your risk is greater as a seller than as a buyer

00:46:42   Now there are a few exceptions. So there are certain ways that you can accept payment where

00:46:49   The buyer is basically handing you cash in the digital form. So obviously yes crypto blah blah. I don't care also

00:46:55   You know

00:46:56   There's like the PayPal goods and services method of sending Venmo has a way to send where it's kind of like cash

00:47:02   Either Apple pay cash you can pay for things where the buyer has no recourse whatsoever if the transaction doesn't go very well

00:47:09   Obviously most buyers don't want to do that, especially if they don't know you so this is one area where you know

00:47:16   We mentioned before about how you selling on Twitter if you can get somebody to like, you know

00:47:20   Do the the goods and services method on PayPal or one of these one of these cash based methods?

00:47:24   That's better for you in terms that you don't pay the fees

00:47:27   But it's also better for you in that they can't scam you out of out of the item in some way

00:47:32   The downside is that they have to trust you, you know to do that and that's not gonna be possible for all the transactions again

00:47:40   This is one of the things where if you want to be guaranteed not to get scammed trade it into Apple

00:47:45   because you've actually even then like

00:47:48   Sometimes even then like they will they will receive your item and they'll say hey actually the screen has a chip in it

00:47:56   So this is worth zero you want to recycle it or send it back?

00:47:59   By the way, when they say that send it back don't don't take their thing

00:48:03   If you know, it wasn't chipped get it back and try some other option or give it away or something

00:48:08   But anyway, if you want to minimize the risks of like humans trying to scam you intentionally

00:48:13   Then go with one of the easier options where you're not gonna get the best rate

00:48:17   If you want to get the best rates, it is gonna be on some level a bit of a gamble

00:48:22   that's one of the reasons you get higher rates and

00:48:24   Sometimes you might get screwed but most of the time it will work. So that's you know in my experience

00:48:30   I haven't run into any scam buyers. I haven't sold a ton of things on eBay, but I have sold, you know

00:48:36   Maybe 20 or 30 items over over the years and I never had a problem at that scale

00:48:41   But you know, it's it's a gamble and John your attic is just about to crumble from the weight of all of your old computers

00:48:47   So this is not something you have any opinions on I assume right now by the time

00:48:51   I'm ready to get rid of any of them. They're gonna be worth nothing. So I'll have to pay someone to take them away

00:48:55   It'll be it'll be a reverse sale

00:48:57   We were sponsored this week by Linode my favorite place to run servers visit linode.com/ATP

00:49:05   See why Linode has been voted the top infrastructure as a service provider by both G2 and TrustRadius

00:49:11   Linode is a cloud host. This is what used to be called a VPS host or you know a compute host or whatever

00:49:18   This is what you know modern servers are and I've been a Linode customer for almost a decade now

00:49:23   This is where I host all the servers that I run

00:49:26   for my app backends or for any kind of custom CMS or any kind of custom in the cloud service that I want to run and

00:49:33   It is just a fantastic web host

00:49:35   They have amazing capabilities from big to small from cheap to very high-end if you need it

00:49:41   You know from you know basic services like, you know cloud instances all the way up to you know

00:49:45   Kind of more abstract things like block storage manage kubernetes support

00:49:50   supported centralized tools like Terraform

00:49:53   They have all sorts of stuff whatever it is. You need your server host to do they probably have it and they deliver this with

00:49:58   incredible performance

00:50:01   Incredible support and what's always been very important to me because of the scale I run at

00:50:05   Incredible value pricing they have the best values in the business and they have for the entire time

00:50:13   I've been with them almost a decade. They've been the best value that entire time whenever technology gets better

00:50:18   And it allows them to offer more for your money. They do it's fantastic. See for yourself at linode.com

00:50:25   Slash ATP create a free account with your Google or github account or your email address

00:50:31   You can get a hundred dollars in credit. Once again create that free account at linode.com

00:50:36   Slash ATP and you can get a hundred dollars in credit

00:50:41   Linode helps you make cloud computing fast simple and affordable so you can focus on your projects and not your infrastructure

00:50:48   Thank you to Linode for hosting all my servers and sponsoring our show

00:50:52   We have been intending to talk about Facebook and meta for a long time and the time has come so

00:51:03   When are we moving the podcast to the metaverse guys? Yeah, I

00:51:09   Actually really don't have that much to say about this I don't feel like I am clairvoyant enough

00:51:14   I don't have enough Nostradamus in me to be able to

00:51:16   Have any clear thoughts on this

00:51:19   the one thing I will say is that it's been interesting reading Ben Thompson's coverage and will link to the

00:51:24   interview that he had with Mark Zuckerberg recently

00:51:27   One thing that has been fascinating to watch speaking of subscription things that are absolutely worth the money

00:51:32   Ben's coverage on Stratechery

00:51:35   Has been interesting where he went from in my opinion kind of poo-pooing VR to well

00:51:41   actually this has a place and I think it was largely because of

00:51:44   him conducting meetings in VR like business meetings and he said that that that the

00:51:50   Perception of presence is so strong even though it's all virtual and there's and especially in these unprecedented times

00:51:57   There's something to be said for that and and I I don't have any interest in putting together

00:52:02   Either a VR rig or whatever the one is where it's all standalone, but it's like 600 bucks or something like that

00:52:09   Like I don't have the desire to spend 600 bucks

00:52:11   I don't have the desire to spend 300 thousand, but is it only three that's actually not as bad

00:52:15   Yeah, the quest you're talking about the quest to rather. Yeah, that's the one we have. It's all standalone wireless. Yeah, it's great

00:52:20   That's not as bad as I thought I'd say I take it slightly back then but um, let me remind you that my iMac pros on

00:52:25   for on sale soon, but anyways

00:52:27   I I would like to try that sort of thing even though I don't have much of an occasion to meet with people anymore

00:52:34   but I don't know I I

00:52:36   Get real big, you know ready player one vibes from this and and and that's not necessarily bad

00:52:43   But I don't know. I just I don't know what to make of it one way or the other

00:52:46   I don't know which one of you was a John that put this in here

00:52:48   So presumably John you have some thoughts about it. Yeah, the combination of this and Facebook is

00:52:54   Interesting to me. So first of you'll know we're talking about the whole metaverse thing. It's basically as Casey was looking to it's like

00:53:02   It's tied to VR VR AR where?

00:53:06   Think a lot of things we could do now

00:53:08   You can go to a slack room or a discord and chat with other people and have different channels

00:53:13   And you can you can play an online game where a bunch of people are in an instance together wandering around

00:53:18   You know

00:53:19   They have avatars with equipment and stuff and like but why is that not the metaverse all these things that we have in the world

00:53:24   of computing what what's the difference in that in the metaverse the main difference is the metaverse is focused on a

00:53:29   RVR type stuff where you put a thing over your face

00:53:32   so the screens are right in front of your eyeballs and when you turn your head you look around and

00:53:36   That combined with one of those things I just described equals the metaverse

00:53:42   You know all the things that you can do online you can shop you can talk to people you can play a game

00:53:47   You can be pretend you're in a different place than you're in

00:53:50   You know all the things that you can do and all the different work and play things but with this new

00:53:56   additional input output experience

00:53:59   Which is the screens on your face and the idea of presence where it feels like you're there because when you're an actual place you

00:54:04   Can look left look right and when someone talks at you the sound comes from where they are and hits your ears

00:54:09   And if you're far away from people they're quiet and if you're close they're louder and you can go places and do things and anyway

00:54:16   That's that's the basic concept of the metaverse

00:54:18   You've probably heard or seen about it before in the past in science fiction

00:54:22   And of course if you've been keeping up with VR AR at all

00:54:25   You know this technology is out there and the metaverse is just someone saying

00:54:28   This is what we want. We want this we want to do all these things in this place

00:54:33   so

00:54:35   Why is it interesting that Facebook is?

00:54:37   You know has renamed their parent whatever and you know kind of like Google did with alphabet

00:54:42   They want to call their company meta or whatever. There is a whole

00:54:46   Business sideshow of that that I don't want to get particularly into but I think it's enough to say that Facebook

00:54:51   Being the you know fairly savvy company that it is

00:54:55   Is trying to make sure trying to ensure its long-term?

00:54:59   success Facebook is

00:55:02   Was a website and then it was an app, but it's basically we know what Facebook is

00:55:06   They they call it the blue app and their internal parlance apparently

00:55:09   Facebook is Facebook

00:55:11   And you know if there was time before Facebook there were other things that were similar like myspace

00:55:17   But Facebook kind of wiped them out

00:55:19   The folks who run Facebook are smart enough to know that Facebook isn't necessarily forever

00:55:26   It may be skewing older people who just decide one day that Facebook is done, and there is something that is similar

00:55:34   That's a better replacement and Facebook is trying to say well if someone's gonna replace

00:55:39   The blue app with something else it should be us and we think this whole metaverse idea might be it

00:55:45   So let's rename the parent company meta and let's start working on this. We still love Facebook

00:55:50   We still love you know selling access to you to advertisers. That's how we make all our money

00:55:54   Facebook still has hoe Jillians of users. I should say who joins

00:55:58   I just see billions like it actually has billions of users. That's not a

00:56:01   Fenceful exaggeration and that's a powerful thing

00:56:05   But in the meantime if there's gonna be something that replaces Facebook Facebook should start working on it and Mark Zuckerberg

00:56:11   Zuckerberg apparently is totally into the whole idea of the metaverse because maybe he's

00:56:16   Read too many science fiction novels so that's that that's like why is Facebook. Why is Facebook doing this now?

00:56:22   Why are you know? Why do they feel like they have to do this? I think in general. It's having a hedge is smart

00:56:27   Because it would be wrong for Facebook to think

00:56:31   That the blue app is forever and because they have billions of users they will always have billions of users

00:56:36   And there's no way to unseat them. It's hard to unseat them

00:56:39   It's a hell of a moat as they say in the business

00:56:41   You can do a lot with billions of users that people can't compete with

00:56:45   but I do look at you know what young people are doing whether it's tik-tok or

00:56:51   Instagram or whatever you know or even not really Twitter because that's that's all for old people these days, but

00:56:58   It is possible for a new thing to come out and grab the hearts and minds of the younger people

00:57:03   And that's bad for Facebook because old people will actually die

00:57:06   So I think it is wise for them to be hedging

00:57:10   but all that said

00:57:13   Facebook and the vet averse thing you know this is not a new idea and when I look at all the press that Facebook is

00:57:20   getting with meta

00:57:21   it

00:57:23   You know again. I understand why Facebook's doing it

00:57:25   I don't quite understand why so many of the stories about it

00:57:28   don't sort of say you don't talk about the elephant in the room which is

00:57:33   that

00:57:35   If there was going to be one company or any company pick a company you think is going to have a good chance

00:57:40   At bringing the metaverse into existence. I would never pick the company that it just has never been good at making

00:57:48   Consumer hardware software products Facebook has tried to make a lot of stuff in its time and they bought oculus

00:57:55   Which is good. They didn't try to make that themselves right, but this is not their strength

00:57:59   To you know to realize the metaverse there is a very important hardware component in fact some would argue

00:58:05   It's the most important component because it's the one we haven't figured out how to do yet

00:58:09   yeah, the quest is great and cheap and small or whatever but

00:58:12   the idea that

00:58:15   Billions of people are going to wear something like that all day long it would have happened already if we were at the point where?

00:58:22   The hardware wasn't the issue all right once we got you know forget about smartphones once we got

00:58:27   Cellphones to the point where the hardware is good enough for regular people boom

00:58:31   Seemingly overnight the whole world had cell phones then of course smartphones ever. I'm just talking about a plain old dumb

00:58:36   You know feature phones, right?

00:58:38   When they were huge and expensive and the size of bricks are only worked in your car billions of people didn't have them eventually

00:58:44   they hit the we got the right hardware threshold, and you know whatever Nokia was the

00:58:50   Big company back then and I was like oh now everyone has a cell phone because we cross that barrier

00:58:54   We're not there with VR. What VR does now even the expensive cool ones like the highest end stuff is not compelling enough

00:59:00   For the world to buy it either because it's too big and uncomfortable or because it's too expensive

00:59:06   Or it's too constraining or all those things combined. It's just not there yet

00:59:10   So to get to the metaverse you need to overcome that hurdle of

00:59:16   We need to figure out how to get pixels into your eyeballs and sensors all around you so we can tell where you're looking

00:59:22   In a reasonable way with good resolution and good latency with a reasonable price like all you have to cross all those thresholds

00:59:28   And I would never pick Facebook as my horse to bet on that's gonna crack this problem because they're so bad at this

00:59:36   They have never made a really great hardware product

00:59:40   They bought oculus which was smart because they were the leader in the space at the time

00:59:44   But oculus hasn't crossed that threshold either they were mostly catering to high-end gamers and now you know these more low-end things

00:59:51   But that's not something

00:59:53   I don't even think it's something that people want to wear while they sit their desk eight hours a day let alone

00:59:57   something as transformative as a smartphone that people carry with them all the time everywhere wherever they go and

01:00:03   To truly realize the magic of the metaverse it has to at least be as sort of

01:00:08   comfortable and normal to use as sitting in front of a laptop and I would say if you want it should probably

01:00:14   be as comfortable and personal as a smartphone and that

01:00:18   People are okay using it whenever or wherever

01:00:21   And it feels like you know extension of themselves, and you know the most personally device your own which

01:00:27   Apple said about the Apple watch or whatever

01:00:30   But nobody's really venturing out into the into the real world

01:00:34   With you know with a VR headset on their face because the hardware is not there and the battery life isn't there and the network connection

01:00:41   Isn't there there's so many things that are missing and although Ben Thompson may enjoy

01:00:44   You know

01:00:46   Sharing a spreadsheet and sitting down at a virtual table with a bunch of cartoon avatars because it's a cool fun experience

01:00:51   That is not the type of thing that is yet

01:00:55   Compelling enough that there's going to be billions of people wanting to do that because there was they'd be doing it right now

01:01:00   So there's a long way to go the hardware the software the services we have not

01:01:05   crossed the barrier into

01:01:08   Mass market yet, and I don't and I read article after article about Facebook Facebook wants to do made a meta Facebook wants to make

01:01:15   the meta verse basically it's like

01:01:17   Why are we even it's like if Apple said they wanted to do an amazing social network like we would laugh at them

01:01:24   I'm everyone bring up ping we would say Apple you're not good at this. You've tried it

01:01:27   You're very bad at it. You continue to be very bad at it

01:01:30   If you said you're going to be the next great social network that's gonna surpass all the existing ones

01:01:35   We wouldn't have story after story, you know, it's stars in their eyes saying Apple soon to usher in a new era of social networking

01:01:42   No, they're not because Apple's terrible this we would not take them seriously

01:01:45   And I don't understand why people are taking Facebook seriously Facebook who want this all they want

01:01:50   But they just don't have the skill set they need to buy more companies or get better this stuff real fast

01:01:56   Now it could be argued. It doesn't matter that on the skill set

01:01:59   The real thing that happens to billions of billions of people and that's harder to get

01:02:03   Arguably then figuring out how to make good hardware software products

01:02:07   Like maybe eventually the technology gets good enough that even if Facebook is crappy at making hardware and software

01:02:12   It's easy enough for them to slap something together

01:02:14   The real barrier is the billions of users because that's just harder to get and takes longer and is more of a barrier than you know

01:02:21   Any particular hardware skill, right?

01:02:23   That's possible

01:02:25   Maybe but at the very least I feel like almost any story about Facebook in the metaverse

01:02:30   Should at least touch on the idea that historically Facebook has been terrible about everything you need to do for the metaverse

01:02:35   I think they're terrible at all the of the software parts of it too because there's nothing about

01:02:40   Facebook the application that makes me think it will translate well to a

01:02:45   Persistent online 3d world that they lovingly curate and care for so that it's a place people want to spend time

01:02:52   people barely want to spend time on a series of web pages shown through a little iOS app because it's just a

01:02:57   Ses pool of angry walls of text room, you know your weird uncle, right? That's what

01:03:03   Facebook is and

01:03:05   the 3d translation of that and think about how many times

01:03:08   Facebook has changed and totally altered the way their product worse and it worked and you know switched around all their technologies

01:03:14   like that does not lend itself to

01:03:16   Fostering a long-term metaverse II type thing

01:03:20   And on the flip side of that who has been good about doing any kind of metaverse type stuff

01:03:27   On the software side you have the people who have been doing it best are essentially people who run online gaming services

01:03:33   world of Warcraft even things like second life any kind of

01:03:37   Game where there's a social space

01:03:39   Even in very narrowly defined things arguably even something like destiny where it's incredibly narrowly defined as very little you can do

01:03:45   You can only do destiny things. It's certainly not you know a whole world

01:03:48   it's just a very narrowly defined slice of the world even that like to have a company that understands how to

01:03:55   Get a bunch of customers and in many cases

01:03:58   These are paying customers who which Facebook can't do because they have billions of people and billions of people aren't going to pay you

01:04:03   You know $60 a year or $5 a month or whatever

01:04:07   To build a space a 3d space with presence or whatever and to nurture that over the years

01:04:15   You know finding places where it's being exploited or are crumbling or falling down

01:04:21   Preserving people's investment in that 3d space making it feel like a place where people want to be and want to invest their time

01:04:27   That's what online games do and it's really really hard and one of the main activities of

01:04:33   those that successful kind of software incarnation of the metaverse is

01:04:37   You know reacting strongly to cases where people do bad things bad actors people griefing in games people hacking in games

01:04:47   You know making the game worse for other people does this start to sound familiar Facebook does not stop this and Facebook

01:04:54   Facebook lets all the worst behavior happen because it means more engagement because it means more time online because it means I can they can sell

01:05:00   Your information to advertisers and that's how they make their money, right?

01:05:03   That it's all the opposite of the things that are required to make any kind of sort of

01:05:08   Metiversity type place with presence setting aside the VR just saying 3d persistent world where people go and spend hours and want to spend time

01:05:14   There if you look at all those things, it's mostly gaming companies and they act very differently than Facebook and then on the hardware side

01:05:21   You know again that Facebook is not known for its hardware innovation whether it's very fast low power

01:05:27   CPUs great API's with you know for 3d and native apps they bought oculus. I feel like they've

01:05:33   not that they've ruined oculus, but they've

01:05:36   Mishandled oculus, let's say and that they didn't they didn't stick with catering to the hardcore gamers

01:05:42   They wanted to go sort of broader than that

01:05:44   but then they made people sign in with their Facebook account and that was a mistake and it's just kind of like

01:05:49   made people who were previously big oculus fans less so while not replacing them with people who are equally enthusiastic from

01:05:57   The you know the broader market they did a little bit of that like there there is has some been some give-and-take there

01:06:03   but I think they've kind of seeded the high-end space to like the what the valve index or whatever that thing is called and

01:06:11   You know haven't created an

01:06:13   Equivalently large enthusiastic group of people who spend eight hours a day with their quest on their face taking meetings or whatever

01:06:20   And you know again setting aside the idea that that meetings are the ultimate incarnation of this and you know looking at the evidence of

01:06:26   Where do people where historically where have people chosen to spend lots of the time online in IRC channels in Mudd's and mush's?

01:06:33   And you know in Second Life in World of Warcraft

01:06:38   Those things all have like nothing in common with Facebook

01:06:41   And they also have nothing in common with a virtual like meeting room where someone can show a spreadsheet on the wall. So

01:06:48   I guess what is the I'm bearish on Facebook and the metaverse I could never get it, right

01:06:55   I always get a ball is one the one where you're enthusiastic about it. The bear is where you think yeah

01:07:00   Like I don't have any confidence in Facebook's ability to realize this vision

01:07:04   Which is good because I hate Facebook and don't want them to realize this vision and really want someone else to figure out how to

01:07:08   Do this before they do because Facebook is terrible at maintaining spaces where people want to be

01:07:13   I

01:07:14   Also think the technology to get this over the hump is a lot farther off than people think it is

01:07:20   But in the meantime if you want to have any of the experiences that are promised for the metaverse

01:07:25   You can get all that except for for the most part the 3d VR presence thing in other places

01:07:32   And it's great. If you arguably a discord or a slack are

01:07:36   Can be versions of the metaverse any kind of online community a web bulletin board

01:07:41   I feel like I've been on a web bulletin boards that have

01:07:44   more of a sense of community and quote unquote presence without any a VR without an even graphics even just like

01:07:50   Use net groups that have had more quote unquote presence and community than the metaverse. So I feel to some degree I feel like it's like

01:07:58   chasing something that already exists because now there's a way to sort of make it strategically important and fancy and

01:08:04   Invoke all of these science fiction tropes when in reality making online communities

01:08:10   Has always been a valuable thing to do will continue to be a valuable thing to do is very difficult to do and requires

01:08:17   Making essentially the opposite decision that Facebook has ever made anytime. They've been faced with any kind of decision Wow

01:08:25   I didn't even think about that like when I was thinking about, you know, the possibility of this actually coming to

01:08:29   Fruition the way they they envision it but I

01:08:32   Think let's let's take this, you know bits at a time

01:08:34   Do you think that?

01:08:38   the name change

01:08:40   to to meta like obviously there's lots of potential reasons why Facebook might have wanted to

01:08:46   Make some kind of bigger overarching brand for their properties that had that was different than the name Facebook

01:08:53   Obviously, there's lots of cynical reasons Facebook has not a great reputation among lots of people

01:08:58   it is very popular, but it is it is very like controversially popular and and

01:09:03   unevenly popular I would say and definitely seems to be very uncool among young people and more left-leaning people and

01:09:12   That's you know, when you're when your audience is mostly older that's not great for your future prospects of brand equity

01:09:20   So that's that's obviously one big problem. They have they have more recent problems of you know

01:09:26   Various scandals flaring up here and there but that's honestly I think those pale in comparison to the fact that young people think they're not

01:09:32   cool

01:09:33   But do you think overall like, you know when when Google created this alphabet umbrella?

01:09:37   That lasted in the press for maybe a day and then we all just forgot about it

01:09:44   Like I would just call them Google

01:09:45   Yeah

01:09:46   Like alphabet doesn't own YouTube Google owns YouTube or whatever like no one like maybe you know Bloomberg might have to say alphabet Inc

01:09:53   You know parenthesis Google, you know, but but no one ever talks about them that way

01:09:58   No one talks about Google being an alphabet product. Everyone just says Google. I think the way Facebook has

01:10:03   has branded meta

01:10:06   Suggests that they want it to actually be a consumer facing brand name

01:10:12   Whereas Google seems to have created an alphabet mostly for accounting reasons or you know stock market reasons

01:10:18   But meta seems like they actually like Facebook actually wants that name to be its own thing and and to be known and

01:10:25   Part of it again cynical reasons when Facebook had that giant outage a few weeks back

01:10:31   I think that's when a lot of people learned that Facebook owns. What's app?

01:10:35   I think a lot of people who use whatsapp every single day did not know that Facebook owned it until that day

01:10:43   I think that was a wake-up call, you know Facebook has as John mentioned that you know

01:10:48   They very aggressively have tried to push their own push the Facebook brand name into other successful properties

01:10:54   They own they first started doing with Instagram and they started doing with oculus where?

01:10:59   Instagram used to be called Instagram for years after Facebook owned it

01:11:04   It was still called Instagram and you could use it for years and never actually know that Facebook really owned it

01:11:10   And then a couple years ago they started they started a rebranding Facebook into Instagram to promote Facebook

01:11:16   You know the quote blue app, you know the Facebook app because it was losing ground among young people

01:11:20   so they started they renamed Instagram to Instagram by Facebook and added that to the launch screen and that all over the app and

01:11:27   Started integrating Facebook into Instagram much more having cross chat having account integration

01:11:33   And there's lots of reasons why they did that

01:11:35   I think almost all of them are cynical because I should clarify I have no respect for this company or its morals

01:11:42   It's a horrible company run by horrible people

01:11:44   among all of the big tech companies that you couldn't think of a name I

01:11:48   Think that people running Facebook might be the worst people in terms of like

01:11:53   moral

01:11:55   Standards and ethics they might be the worst and that's really saying something. But anyway, so

01:12:03   you know, there's there were lots of reasons to do that, but but I think it kind of backfired in the sense that their goal of

01:12:08   trying to make

01:12:11   Instagram

01:12:12   Make young people like Facebook more

01:12:14   didn't seem to have happened and

01:12:17   Certainly trying to make you know, trying to use oculus to promote Facebook really didn't happen like that that backfired

01:12:25   Tremendously and made everyone hate oculus and made them lose a whole bunch of gamers and gamer cred

01:12:31   And that's that's not great for anybody involved

01:12:35   So I think meta though might have been in response to how badly those things went now

01:12:42   What if you don't happen? What if in you know, six months or a year?

01:12:45   You don't have to log into your oculus quest with your Facebook account you log in with your meta account

01:12:50   you know, we like to think that people will see right through that and and that this that such a ploy wouldn't work but

01:12:58   In practice such ploys tend to work. They totally work. We hate it

01:13:04   We were like, how can you what do you mean? It's just Facebook

01:13:07   Yeah, and and that kind of thing totally works people will be fooled just you know slashed by into it

01:13:12   The question is I think not like whether this like distraction based naming

01:13:18   Will work but what will the actual prospects be like afterwards and and this is where you know

01:13:24   Like what John was saying a minute ago

01:13:26   I have been rambling for a while probably much longer than a minute ago

01:13:29   Which I was saying many minutes ago last time I let anybody else talk. Oh

01:13:32   You know that Facebook is not great at commit creating this kind of thing and that's pretty true, you know

01:13:39   the the idea of creating a a

01:13:42   social network for like kind of broadcast purposes where you know

01:13:46   like Instagram is kind of broadcast you are putting stuff out there for everyone to see and and

01:13:52   Hope that everyone sees you and gives you lots of likes

01:13:55   you know that that's a different thing than a

01:13:58   Creating social private rooms, which is kind of what the metaverse I think is probably more likely to become if it becomes a thing

01:14:07   and be

01:14:09   Workplace uses which are totally different in the workplace

01:14:13   Facebook is likely to get stomped all over by Microsoft

01:14:18   We've seen time and time again. What happens to useful workplace tools

01:14:25   Microsoft makes their version and it usually wins because it's built into everything else and they have all these integrations and they have great

01:14:31   Distribution and sales channels. It's because the companies are already paying Microsoft

01:14:35   That's why they win right companies like Microsoft gets companies into deals where they pay whatever it is

01:14:40   Whatever whatever the sort of like the tractor is for the day probably is still exchange

01:14:44   but it could be Word and Excel and office like

01:14:47   The number of big companies that aren't already paying some package deal to Microsoft is probably small

01:14:53   And once you're paying some kind of package deal to Microsoft the way Microsoft wins is they just say oh our

01:14:58   Competitor to X is now part of that thing

01:15:01   You're already paying for and then so if someone sees that and they say oh well

01:15:05   Why would we ever pay slack X number of million dollars a year when for zero additional dollars a year?

01:15:11   We can get teams and all their employees say well

01:15:13   It's because teams is terrible and slack is better and then they say yeah

01:15:17   But zero dollars and you can guess how that argument goes. Yeah, so so very quickly

01:15:21   I'm in a slack with a bunch of people that I used to work with a couple jobs ago like a free slack and

01:15:26   And I am watching this unfold from the sidelines as we speak because all the employees really like slack

01:15:33   The company's been on slack

01:15:34   This was after I left

01:15:36   But yeah, they went to slack after I left and all the employees all the rank-and-file love it

01:15:40   But the bean counters are looking at teams and saying well we get teams for free. So guess what they're doing

01:15:45   They're switching to teams

01:15:46   It's exactly what you just said John and it's just hilarious because I'm on the sidelines with my meal bucket of popcorn

01:15:51   Watching this all go down and it's literally word-for-word exactly what you said

01:15:55   It's not like Microsoft doesn't have anything in VR. They got HoloLens there today our stuff like so they're you know, they're

01:16:00   You know Microsoft is better this the things you brought up is like consumer enterprise, you know

01:16:06   Facebook is not good in the enterprise

01:16:07   That's arguably one of the reasons why they need the name changes because you try to bring Facebook into an enterprise

01:16:11   Facebook is what your employer wants to make sure you're not doing it work because Facebook equals goofing off right Facebook does not equal working

01:16:19   So there's you know, if a Facebook enterprise sales team lands at your company

01:16:24   They're like, we don't want our employees having anything to do with Facebook and they said no. No, it's for work

01:16:28   It's like Facebook where it's like we don't want Facebook for work. So no, it's like it's like you're in a meeting room

01:16:32   it's like they have to come under a different name and

01:16:35   Meta could be that name but the whole the whole idea of the rebranding

01:16:39   You have to have something behind that brand

01:16:42   I don't think you can just rename the Facebook account to the meta account and not it won't do anything

01:16:46   you need to have like a product that people want or at least a

01:16:51   your version of a product that people want like

01:16:53   Teams is a version of slack, right? People already wanted slack. Oh my god. My voice is dying

01:17:01   Holy smokes, my dude

01:17:04   Are you sick or you just gravelly today? Yeah invest in a humidifier up there. It's getting cold. I'm extremely gravelly tonight

01:17:10   I apologize for being gravelly Marco will have a filter that will fix

01:17:15   You know, that's that's optimistic. I people already wanted slack

01:17:19   But you know teams who just say we're likes that thing you already want, but it's our version of it, right?

01:17:25   With with the metaverse someone has to make a version of the metaverse that people want then you can compete and say oh

01:17:32   Here's our version of the metaverse and and then Facebook is not on great footing either because they could say

01:17:36   Well, there's multiple versions of the metaverse that people want

01:17:39   Why would I buy the one from Facebook a company with no track record of serving the enterprise?

01:17:44   Right and consumers would say why would I want the version of the metaverse?

01:17:47   That's from that that you know privacy invading company with all these congressional hearings

01:17:51   yeah, and also like even the concept of

01:17:55   one

01:17:57   Metaverse for everyone to use like between work and play and everything. I think that's never gonna happen

01:18:02   We already see what happens with technology and the enterprise your business gives you their

01:18:09   Email address with your name prefixed on it. You have their chat app. You have their collaboration app

01:18:15   You have their tools you get issue one of their computers and one of their phones locked under their policies

01:18:20   They don't want you to have like your Facebook or meta

01:18:24   Personality thing and in a metaverse to come in to be your business metaverse icon, whatever these things are called

01:18:32   They don't want that even if something like this gets off the ground and that's that's a big if

01:18:36   But even if something like this gets off the ground in the consumer or social spaces

01:18:40   You're not gonna get to use that at work. You're gonna have to use the crappy Microsoft version at work

01:18:45   You know like that's it's never gonna be like one

01:18:48   Giant metaverse where everyone's getting along and all these systems somehow

01:18:52   Interoperate which that's a whole other thing because you know, so getting getting that for a moment if we can

01:18:58   Did you do you did you watch the the Facebook content video about this? I did not I

01:19:04   got through about five minutes of it before before I build out seeing that's why I didn't because I have a

01:19:10   Strong assumption that I wouldn't make it long, but it was if you remember

01:19:15   Back to the 90s and you remember like seeing all these like concept

01:19:21   Animation like 3d animation videos about the information superhighway and how amazing the internet would be. Oh sure

01:19:28   It's all this like utopia

01:19:31   Vision of what we'll be able to do with technology. Isn't this amazing?

01:19:35   Look at how great this is and this will all work fantastically

01:19:39   Somehow and it will all be funded

01:19:44   somehow and

01:19:46   What you actually see in technology is we do have some

01:19:50   Standards that interoperate we have some decentralization that happens and that would that we've built into the system

01:19:58   But that's not the common case the much more common case in technology is not

01:20:04   stuff like the web or email

01:20:06   Open distributed standard protocols are far from the common case the much more common case is

01:20:14   Companies make their own walled gardens. They centralize power to themselves and then they control power

01:20:22   distribution

01:20:24   Publishing as much as possible themselves to make themselves the most money and lock in the most power for themselves. I

01:20:32   Don't see how we're possibly going to enter a world now, especially now that we have a very mature technology

01:20:39   Technology industry and and and you know world here

01:20:43   No one is going to launch a brand new open protocol and let everyone else interact with it. It's gonna be one company

01:20:50   So let's get you know, Facebook's thing where they're oh, this is gonna can't just be as we're gonna be protocols

01:20:54   be s Facebook is gonna do their own thing that works with their own stuff and just like what everyone else does if

01:21:02   They have an API of any sort it will only be

01:21:06   Accessing things that aren't their core lock-in

01:21:11   They're not going to give you access to

01:21:13   The core stuff that really matters so that you could actually build what you want and have actual interoperability that matters

01:21:18   They're gonna let you like add value to their platform

01:21:21   But not take any back out because that's what every big tech company does with anything new they launch these days

01:21:26   So let's get right out of the way. There is no chance of some kind of

01:21:31   Awesome cooperative standard forming where different companies metaverses will all get to form together and you'll have portability of it

01:21:39   No, that's that's right out the window. That's like what happens when human selfishness and greed come into the picture, right?

01:21:45   secondly

01:21:46   Facebook's glorious concept video which frankly I found insufferable

01:21:51   Like I I hate all these people

01:21:53   That's maybe that's just me being you know a yeah East coaster here, but it was all idealized content as well

01:22:01   It's like when you watch one of Apple's like group FaceTime demos

01:22:06   Hey, Joe, you want to get lunch? Oh sure Lisa. It's like it's so like

01:22:12   Sat like saccharine like just canned everyone's a model in perfect lighting living in their fabulous house in a scenic place

01:22:20   You know, yeah, but you know what you would actually have in one of these metaverse conversations chat roulette. Yeah first well

01:22:27   Yeah, first of all, there's you know genitals flying everywhere, right?

01:22:31   Problem number one see also second life. Yes, right. You also have things like technical problems. There's Marcia

01:22:38   She oh she's flickering out again because her internet connection sucks. You're muted. You're muted. No one can hear you. You're muted

01:22:44   Yeah, it's like the world's largest zoom call

01:22:46   Like that's you know, you're gonna have technical issues people having problems operating the equipment and interfaces that they are given

01:22:53   differences in people's internet connections differences in how good their equipment is and so therefore, you know, some people are gonna be

01:23:00   You know smoother moving others. You'll be able to hear them better. I mean look look at all the technology we have today

01:23:06   We still can't make like a conference call that works

01:23:11   We have infinite technology in the form of things that can make conference calls good and we still can't even do that

01:23:17   Because of mostly human nature problems or just technical realities of networks and equipment and physics and stuff like that

01:23:24   So we have all sorts of technical problems

01:23:26   This is a good example though because think things like, you know

01:23:29   What we call zoom calls about zoom really just sort of fell but backwards into

01:23:34   do

01:23:37   being the proprietary app and in for conference calls, but

01:23:40   Over the course of you know the past decade or so the idea of doing a real-time audio

01:23:45   Multi-person chat where you're presenting a document has gotten way way better still crappy, which is your point, but it's gotten way better

01:23:52   And I think that gives you an example of the kind of timeline we should expect

01:23:58   Starting from zero right now more or less with metaverse type stuff and that we're still not done making

01:24:04   Boring audio only maybe with some video share a document work stuff work

01:24:09   Well, we're really far away from 3d persistent world presence stuff really far

01:24:15   Yeah, I know we have technology to do now. You can do a cool tech demo or whatever

01:24:19   But we're like where audio conferencing was a decade ago. Yeah, and then finally we get to the

01:24:26   content problem

01:24:28   even if we accept the fact that not everybody's going to be a model in perfect lighting and

01:24:33   Even if we accept the fact that everyone's gonna have good equipment that's working correctly that they're operating correctly on a good internet connection

01:24:40   Which again, none of those are actually realistic expectations, but it's setting all that aside

01:24:45   the big problem with all these concept videos and these lofty ideas is that they don't have any ads and

01:24:53   Everyone is speaking nicely to everyone else about trivial things that don't matter and that does not happen in real life

01:25:02   What's going to happen if somebody develops such a thing in any kind of public way, you know, that's outside of like, you know corporate

01:25:09   Environments like if there it is is some kind of like public social metaverse

01:25:12   What's actually going to be there is a whole bunch of people yelling at each other?

01:25:18   There's gonna be you know, the the racists the haters the you know

01:25:23   All the political arguments religious arguments name-calling swearing harassment all the sexual problems

01:25:29   and it's all gonna be surrounded by ads constantly being injected everywhere in really weird creepy places and

01:25:36   Not not just good ads but really terrible ads, you know, it's not gonna be like oh look

01:25:40   What a wonderful Nissan you just virtually drove up in

01:25:43   No, it's gonna be Viagra boner pills and and all sorts of other crap that it's gonna be

01:25:48   You know political ads and all it just it's all the garbage that you actually get in online ads all over Facebook

01:25:54   You see that we just take what Facebook is when you when you visit Facebook

01:26:00   Take all of those problems and all that

01:26:04   Idiocrity and the moral bankrupt people who run it and put all that in 3d

01:26:10   That's what we would actually have

01:26:13   It wouldn't be one of these magical concept videos where all these attractive people are talking about about getting lunch

01:26:19   Which actually I guess they can't even really do that. But anyway, it wouldn't even be like that

01:26:23   It would be like your crappy relatives on Facebook now in 3d surrounded by 3d dick ads

01:26:29   Like that's what you'd actually get and it these kinds of videos never consider

01:26:34   real world

01:26:37   Content real world problems real world people and their technical problems and their arguments and their greed

01:26:44   that's what we're actually gonna have to deal with and

01:26:48   Those problems are way harder than how to make your avatar have a new suit or whatever or dress up like a bear if you

01:26:56   Want to that's the easy part. The hard part is dealing with people and their crappy technology and their crappy

01:27:04   Morals and all the ads are gonna be funding at all and I don't see how we get

01:27:10   From here to that wonderful paradise without first having to figure out how the heck to deal with all that crap in the middle

01:27:16   That's mostly unsolvable. I mean, it's not unsolvable that like that's why I brought up games before like lots of online games

01:27:24   Have the same problem. They want to make a place where people want to be like so World of Warcraft

01:27:29   You can't you know?

01:27:32   Put a there's no it's not a bunch of ads all over the place if they put tons of a grass into World of Warcraft

01:27:37   Their customer base would revolt that's not where they want to be. They want it to be like World of Warcraft

01:27:42   They want it to be nice

01:27:43   They they want to you know, there there are features that you add or don't add that

01:27:48   You know can you players push other players off a bridge can players destroy geometry or you know?

01:27:54   Wreck someone else's castle. Can they steal items from other people like?

01:27:58   Games do this all the time because you want to make a place where people feel

01:28:02   Safe and can build communities and hang out with their friends while not being bothered by their enemies and strangers and like, you know

01:28:08   From from something like World of Warcraft, which is you know, very close to a metaverse type thing

01:28:13   Just without the VR all the way down to a web Bolton board, you know about like, you know

01:28:18   Knitting where it has a good set of moderators and a good policy and who can get into but are not as essentially a well-maintained

01:28:23   Community right Facebook has some version of that in its groups and reddit when it's subreddits and stuff like that

01:28:29   But that is the actual work of creating online community and technology doesn't change that work and what you're getting at is Facebook doesn't do

01:28:35   Any of that work for the most part?

01:28:36   It's just a free-for-all and it's terrible and there's ads everywhere because that's how they make their money

01:28:40   The idea of a Facebook that wouldn't put ads in your face because Facebook users or would revolt if they saw ads

01:28:46   That's not the culture that Facebook is built

01:28:50   And arguably Facebook has billions of users and World of Warcraft has mere probably single-digit millions or whatever

01:28:56   so maybe Facebook has the right approach but

01:28:58   The problem is with the whole VR presence thing right now

01:29:02   That's a hurdle to get people over. They don't want to strap something to their face

01:29:06   It seems weird the the more immersive it is the less attractive it is because if you're immersed in a place that is unpleasant

01:29:13   It's worse than

01:29:15   Scrolling some text that's unpleasant

01:29:16   Maybe you try to get to a baby picture or something if you have to walk through like literally walk through the muck

01:29:21   To try to get to the cute pictures of some baby

01:29:24   That's worse

01:29:26   It feels worse than scrolling past or clicking on a link or whatever the more immersive something gets

01:29:31   Like, you know World of Warcraft or Minecraft or you know, anything like that the more more it feels like you're really there

01:29:36   The more it has to be pleasant. Otherwise, you will not want to be there

01:29:40   well also like yeah, I think that's a good thread to pull on like

01:29:44   We don't necessarily want to be more immersed in our work meetings

01:29:48   I know a lot of people who you know

01:29:51   Their jobs are basically being in meetings all day or at least that's a big part of the job

01:29:55   I don't know any of those people first of all setting aside the ergonomics issue, which we get to in a second

01:30:00   I don't know a lot of those people who want

01:30:03   Those meetings to see more of them and who want to be more engaged in those meetings

01:30:09   Let's be honest. How many people out there have paid a hundred percent attention to the meetings that you're in ever?

01:30:15   Everyone is always looking at their phones or checking their email or they have a background window open or something

01:30:20   Like you're always multitasking with you know different apps at the same time if you are in a fully immersive

01:30:27   VR environment that's going to get you know impossible to difficult and certainly want to be different and and that's going to be just

01:30:35   less pleasant

01:30:36   again, it's one of these areas where

01:30:38   the idealized version of being in a meeting is very different from the actual experience of being in a meeting and so

01:30:45   The issues with that of like do I really want to be more fully immersed in?

01:30:50   My company's ideal version of whatever meetings actually actually what they think meetings are but then there's the issue

01:30:56   separately from all that

01:30:59   suppose this does take off think of the

01:31:01   Massive number of problems that we have on the physical and ergonomic side

01:31:06   Right now if you put on an oculus quest

01:31:09   So first of all, you're gonna have problems with the battery life and that's gonna be solvable over time with technology

01:31:15   You know, we'll get all sorts of claims of all-day battery life

01:31:18   We'll have another wave of that so we actually get it, you know, if we ever do so, that's that's problem number one

01:31:24   It's just like the technical side of like you need the gear that you are using for these for these very

01:31:29   Important roles in this theoretical world that this thing exists that gear then has to last what much longer than it does today

01:31:36   Because many people who whose jobs involve meetings

01:31:40   their meetings for many hours day and also then if you use this exact same equipment or similar equipment for

01:31:46   Social things after your home from work or on the weekends or something again, we're talking about multi-hour

01:31:52   Use time here

01:31:54   So the technology first has to get to a point where it even will run for multiple hours

01:31:59   Without being like tethered to a wall or something like that and that's its own significant problem

01:32:05   Then you have to worry about things like comfort

01:32:07   Are you actually going to want to wear an oculus quest or something like it?

01:32:11   If you know as it gets smaller over time

01:32:13   Hopefully are you actually gonna want something like that on your face for six hours in a day?

01:32:19   I mean, maybe the most hardcore gamers might be okay with that, but most people won't be that's that's a pretty, you know big

01:32:25   Physical ask for people even gamers wouldn't do that

01:32:29   And that's why I was bringing up like the things that Facebook is bad at and I don't want to bring up Apple specifically

01:32:33   But like if you're going to improve the technology that does this you have to overcome these hurdles

01:32:38   you'd have to make something that is comfortable to wear all day that have to be much smaller and much lighter and much more comfortable and

01:32:43   Why would you look to Facebook to do that?

01:32:46   Facebook has never made an amazing consumer hardware product that that surpasses others in these type of areas of being like

01:32:52   Smaller lighter better more attractive more fun to use Facebook has never ever ever done that never

01:32:58   Like so, why would you think they're going to solve like the hardest problem currently facing technology?

01:33:02   Which is like how do I you know, how do we make an ARV or headset that doesn't become a sweaty uncomfortable ergonomic nightmare?

01:33:09   No one's figured it out yet

01:33:11   No one has released one like that you're saying the best ones out there are good for short periods

01:33:15   But none of them are sort of all day comfortable people can and do use desktop computers all day people can and do use laptops

01:33:22   iPads iPhones all day long and they have ergonomic problems, too

01:33:26   It's not like they're you know

01:33:27   It's a solved problem people have ergonomic problems with RSI from typing from using the mouse from probably using their phones

01:33:32   I don't you know, I don't know the ergonomic problems of iPad only people but there are problems with established devices

01:33:37   But VR AR there's lots of really difficult problems to solve and they are solvable and they're solvable with technological improvements

01:33:44   But I would never look to Facebook to be the company to solve them never ever ever

01:33:48   So I would name like five other companies that are more likely to figure this out before Facebook does

01:33:53   Yeah, and and I think those those technical hurdles are not to be minimized

01:33:57   This isn't gonna be the kind of thing where everything is gonna be really awesome in five years

01:34:01   I think we're looking at a much longer timescale than that for things to be really great in this area because

01:34:05   We're just so far from it in so many ways the the VR

01:34:09   space will likely get there before the AR space wheel simply because of so many challenges with AR in terms of

01:34:16   Of like projecting bright enough amounts of light to overcome things like sunlight, you know, that's that's a hard thing to do

01:34:23   Whereas if you're if you have a totally enclosed space like in a VR helmet

01:34:27   Not only can the thing itself be much much bigger than glasses

01:34:31   But also you don't have to deal with the external worlds interference with your images

01:34:35   So the VR I think I think is way closer than AR and will be for some time probably

01:34:41   But even even in the VR space you have so many challenges like this not to mention, you know

01:34:47   Long-term ergonomics problems like we don't know

01:34:50   There could be serious concerns with things like your eyes and how they focus if you know

01:34:56   If you're if you're in a VR helmet for many hours a day and you're you know

01:35:00   You're physically not focusing to a great distance

01:35:03   I mean, I don't know how that works with like how your eyes reflect in it. I don't know

01:35:05   I'm sure it's not as bad as I think it'll be but

01:35:08   There's there's probably some issues there

01:35:10   also

01:35:12   VR equipment is kind of specialized and there's many people to whom it is

01:35:17   Basically inaccessible for various reasons now this is true of any kind of technology, you know

01:35:21   There are some people who can't afford any of these things we're talking about

01:35:25   So there's a huge money barrier even among those who could theoretically afford such things. There are barriers in the physical world

01:35:31   So there are people who can't physically operate laptops or two or phones or things like that

01:35:35   There are also many people who cannot physically operate VR helmets for various reasons

01:35:41   Lots of I mean first of all if you have any kind of head or neck problem

01:35:44   That's gonna be that's gonna probably be an issue for you with just like the the weight of this thing sitting on you

01:35:49   You know all day and you know, it's gonna cause probably some neck strain at least if I have their problems

01:35:54   Also things like skin reactivity because the the skin of people's faces are often very sensitive

01:36:00   So you have to deal with that you have to deal with motion sickness, which is a massive problem

01:36:05   John, you know probably couldn't use one of these things for a very long time. I can't even use the quest

01:36:11   I don't know. I don't usually have motion sickness, but the quest is not great for me in that way

01:36:14   I I have to stop using after you know, a pretty short time. We are so far

01:36:19   from

01:36:21   from these kind of things even being

01:36:24   Universally applicable or universally usable for what they are

01:36:27   Let alone considering what about the whole new classes of people and conditions that make these things hard or impossible

01:36:35   To use at all and how do we include those people in this brand new big world?

01:36:41   If this is going to be really important to the way business and socializing are done

01:36:45   So there's there are so many massive hurdles to overcome here some of which I think will be

01:36:52   overcome in time

01:36:54   but many of them probably won't be and so I just I don't see how

01:36:59   the real world with

01:37:02   Actually the people that we have the people that we're stuck with. I don't know how we get to anything like

01:37:09   What Facebook has proposed here with this metaverse concept now, we might get to other things, but I think it's going to be

01:37:16   Kind of similar to what we have now as we were saying earlier. I think it's gonna be fragmented

01:37:20   There's gonna be a lot of private entities that try to make their own little

01:37:24   Metaverses, I guess it doesn't even a thing is that an oxymoron?

01:37:28   But I don't know like there's it's gonna be way

01:37:31   less

01:37:33   Less cool less fun and much more of a grind

01:37:37   Than we think it is because what we're actually doing is making the world's greatest conference call

01:37:42   And I don't know a lot of people who really are dying to get there

01:37:46   I'm pretty confident that all the technical barriers can be overcome with time a long time, but like goodbye

01:37:51   They're all that I feel like they're all tractable

01:37:53   But you know, I don't I don't have faith that

01:37:56   Facebook's gonna be the one to do it and you know all the things you brought up about

01:37:59   you know how how far we are from it brings up the I don't know if this is a

01:38:03   thing that I made up or it's just a phrase that I remember the cynics dilemma of like

01:38:08   when someone like Facebook

01:38:10   Gives a presentation like the metaverse thing the cynics dilemma is and it comes up a politics lot too is

01:38:16   Does the person saying this really believe what they're saying or do they like everyone else who's listening understand how big how much?

01:38:23   Bs it is and they're saying it for strategic reasons, right?

01:38:28   And the reason is the cynics dilemma is neither one of those answers is comforting because if they really believe it

01:38:34   It's scary because they're like clueless or like, you know, you know high on their own supply believing their own BS

01:38:42   And but if they if they don't believe it and you're just saying it, you know cynically to get the end effect

01:38:48   They want they're just villains, right? So everything we've just said about

01:38:51   You know all the the difficulties of VR and how Facebook has not historically

01:38:58   Been the type of company to tackle these problems and defeat them and it's not particularly well positioned to succeed in any of the areas

01:39:06   that it talks about

01:39:08   like

01:39:09   We can all see that and if there are you know a setting aside what I said before about Facebook being smart enough to realize that

01:39:14   Facebook is not forever and they should start working on the next thing. I really hope that they don't believe that

01:39:20   And you know in any kind of reasonable timeline all that crap they put in that video is going to

01:39:26   Both come to fruition and also be as successful as they dream it is

01:39:31   Because they could next year have all the stuff that is in that video

01:39:35   But no one will use it like it's not going to attract users because it's not attractive yet. The hardware is bad

01:39:39   The software is bad. People don't want to do all the things we just said, right?

01:39:42   Surely they know that like they're not like all these stars in their eyes and I think I really hope like

01:39:48   If I had to put money, I would say they understand how much you know

01:39:53   how far they are from that reality

01:39:55   but they're saying this now because

01:39:58   they want to start down the long path of a sort of like a long-term rebranding and escaping from the toxic Facebook brand and

01:40:05   You know letting the old people be you know, I don't know

01:40:08   I don't understand what the strategy is

01:40:09   but it's like this is step one of 8 billion and

01:40:12   Mark Zuckerberg will only be there to see it if he like find some life extension thing to let him live to be 500 years

01:40:18   Old or whatever, but they're starting down that path, right?

01:40:21   But like I can't I can't I don't believe that anyone in the company really thinks that in five years

01:40:28   We'll have a you know, multiple billions of users in the metaverse, right?

01:40:33   And because it just it's just not realistic like we're so far from that

01:40:37   There are so many problems to be solved Facebook has not solved them

01:40:40   Even when Apple had basically solved the problems of like how do we get a smartphone?

01:40:46   touchscreen smartphone into the hands of everyone in the world

01:40:49   Technically speaking they'd cracked that with the introduction of the iPhone. It wasn't just a concept video

01:40:55   They had the product and even then if you would ask them how confident are you?

01:41:00   That in five years like that. This will be a world-changing phenomenon

01:41:05   They'd be like, well, we think it might be but you know, they're not entirely sure and they had the product

01:41:10   They literally had it. It wasn't like they had an idea for a product or a concept

01:41:14   They'd figured it out. The whole phone is a screen you move stuff around with your fingers. That was it, right and

01:41:19   Even then I think it would be hard to find someone who was confident that Facebook has nothing except for like a gaming VR

01:41:26   headset and a cheaper version of it that nobody wants to be in for eight hours a day in meetings and

01:41:30   They're like, here's this vision of the future

01:41:33   It's like just I have to believe that they don't actually think that that's a thing

01:41:38   And so this entire dog and pony show is hey look over here

01:41:42   Like we wouldn't it be cool. This was the future. I mean, yeah, I guess and we're gonna do it. Uh-huh. All right

01:41:50   Yeah, sure

01:41:52   It just seems like a distraction like the worst kind of distraction I keep bouncing back and forth with like, okay

01:41:58   So it's a distraction in their villains, but maybe they really believe it in their dumb, but no it's a distraction in their villains

01:42:03   but they really believe it they're delusional and

01:42:05   You know, neither choice is good

01:42:07   And you know you get Apple over here who's saying nothing but internally working on all these same technologies

01:42:15   Which that's what you mentioned several times

01:42:16   It's a smart thing for companies like Apple to be doing because if you get this right it could be transformative

01:42:22   But kind of like Apple's car stuff

01:42:25   Apparently they haven't gotten it right yet because you know all we have all we have in the outside world from Apple is you know

01:42:30   AR kit and the VR stuff which they're slowly working on and they build into our iPads and phones and it's cool for placing furniture

01:42:35   In your room and you know all that stuff like they're making headway, but Apple is not putting out concept videos about their amazing

01:42:42   You know AR VR headset. It's just all internal and if they ever think it's ready to be a product

01:42:48   They'll release it and so far it hasn't been and so just this Facebook thing. It's like

01:42:54   It doesn't make me feel good on many many different level

01:42:56   The only thing that makes me feel good about it is my fairly high confidence

01:42:59   That Facebook is not going to be the company to pull this off

01:43:02   But as I said before if any other company pulls it off

01:43:05   Facebook is well positioned to say okay. Let's do that and

01:43:10   leverage our billions of users into

01:43:13   the dominant metaverse like like Margaret was saying like

01:43:16   They'll have they'll want to have their own and we just have to hope that it doesn't turn out like

01:43:22   You know YouTube where there's one dominant company that you know controls the entire thing or Facebook

01:43:27   One dominant company that controls all social networking or whatever

01:43:30   We complain about the app stores, but at least we have Android and Apple we have two

01:43:35   that's so much better than the YouTube scenario or the Facebook scenario and

01:43:39   You know the only things that we have in this world that are good are things that

01:43:43   Are you know like the web the platform that nobody owns right email the web all the things that were created before the big tech companies

01:43:50   came along continue to exist and continue to weave everything together, but

01:43:54   We've been through this enough times now that we know all the bad ways this can turn out

01:43:59   And it you know it remains to be seen if we can ever have another good thing by itself like dark

01:44:06   Twitter's doing like the Twitter blue thing or not the Twitter blue thing was it the blue sky thing

01:44:12   What is it called where they're like want to make open open protocols for something like Twitter?

01:44:16   And like I don't understand what their endgame there is but like occasionally there are high minded ideas of like well

01:44:22   You know imagine if YouTube said well you did here at YouTube we control online video

01:44:27   But we envision a world where one company doesn't control online video, and we want to sort of make an open network of

01:44:34   You know video sharing and like no you would never do that

01:44:39   Why would why would they do that and Twitter Twitter's effort for what is it called project blue sky or something?

01:44:45   Seems like they're saying we want to make kind of like an open interoperable protocol for doing stuff like Twitter does

01:44:51   So that you know if someday Twitter dies as a company or gets acquired or crumbles or who knows what happens to it still

01:44:59   Somewhere out there in the universe will be a bunch of interconnected things that work kind of like Twitter

01:45:04   That's not owned and controlled by one company

01:45:06   But just great, but I you know that hasn't actually happened and who knows if it ever will and I don't know how cynical that

01:45:13   That effort is but the metaverse stuff. You know talking about how it's gonna be emperor interoperable protocols and everything

01:45:21   What's gonna make that happen the only thing that ever makes stuff like that happen is like individuals

01:45:28   With I don't know what does the intervals have I'm not gonna say integrity

01:45:33   high minded ideals

01:45:36   Individuals who both control and high minded ideals who are able to make it happen just because they think it's the right thing to do

01:45:44   Arguably, that's the worst. That's the worst thing about Facebook arguably Facebook is one of the few companies where that could actually happen

01:45:50   Because there is literally one person who if he had high minded ideals could bring them to fruition

01:45:57   Unfortunately that person is Mark Zuckerberg, and he does not

01:46:00   So what he is making happen is not any of those things now he talks about it in the metaverse like oh

01:46:08   Maybe that's what I want to whatever, but his actions say no

01:46:11   That's not what's going to happen right most of the other companies have boards of directors and other people who you know who don't have dominant

01:46:18   unwavering control Facebook does which I think is the source of most of the sort of

01:46:23   Harm in the world from Facebook comes from the fact that it is controlled by a single person and no single person should have that

01:46:30   Much power for you know for that long over that many people like even if Mark Zuckerberg was a saint and he's not

01:46:38   You would never want a single person to have that much power the reason Kings are bad right imagine a king who is

01:46:44   the king of a

01:46:46   Kingdom with multiple billions of people

01:46:48   It's not good

01:46:51   so it's I

01:46:53   Really don't know if we're

01:46:57   Good things again. I really don't know how in the current climate

01:47:01   we produce a good on the same level as

01:47:08   Email the web

01:47:10   Unix most of which happened either because of high mine data deals or by accidents in history or both

01:47:15   Because everything that sort of been deliberately done since then has benefited individual companies or sometimes individual people

01:47:22   to the detriment of most others

01:47:25   You know I don't disagree with

01:47:27   Mostly anything that you guys just said, but I don't know I'm

01:47:32   Stupefied that I'm the first person to make this reference of the three of us, but I keep coming back to the knowledge navigator

01:47:38   Which in retrospect is preposterous in almost every way, but I don't begrudge Apple and if you're not familiar

01:47:45   It's this like super campy video from like 87 or thereabouts

01:47:48   Where Apple was pitching what depending on how?

01:47:53   Critically you view this could have been an iPad or could have been something that was nothing like the iPad except kind of like

01:48:00   But anyways it was a preposterous thing for Apple to release it was it was a moon shot of a moon shot of a moon shot

01:48:07   And in like I said if you think critically about it not a lot of it came true

01:48:11   but I do think there's something to be said for first sticking your your flag in the ground and saying

01:48:19   this is where we're aiming and

01:48:21   Again like I don't really love the idea of Facebook being in control of my life in that way

01:48:26   It any more than one could argue it already is but I don't necessarily begrudge them for

01:48:33   planting the flag and saying this is what we think the future looks like and this is the where we're headed and this is what

01:48:38   we want to do and

01:48:40   Especially in the last 18 months where I can only speak for myself

01:48:45   But like Declan did get his first shot this past Friday, and I'm super excited about that but

01:48:50   The pandemic is far from over for the list family

01:48:53   You know Michaela is not vaccinated and we're still not out in the world like many many many other people are so

01:48:59   for this last year and a half

01:49:01   It would have been pretty cool to have some sort of VR presence and experience

01:49:06   In to offset particularly in 2020, you know before I got my vaccination to offset

01:49:14   Not being able to see anyone and you know back before we understood that well as long as you're not a complete buffoon

01:49:20   You know as long as you're outside, it's mostly safe generally speaking. So, you know for for most of 2020

01:49:26   we didn't see anyone and that was kind of our own choice, but

01:49:31   You know

01:49:32   It would have been nice to have something like this

01:49:35   This phantom metaverse to be able to interact with and yeah

01:49:38   We did some zoom calls with people and FaceTime calls with people but it's not the same and I haven't experienced VR

01:49:45   In any reasonable capacity. I haven't experienced it since I was like 10 and you had to stand on this like platform

01:49:52   That had like a ring around it and put on a headset. That was almost so heavy. I couldn't lift my head up

01:49:56   And it when it was so, you know, it wasn't even pixelated

01:50:00   It was just you know wireframes if I remember right it was terrible, but amazing at the same time. Yeah, I don't begrudge

01:50:06   meta Facebook whatever the moonshot and I think in the same way that I look fondly on the knowledge navigator

01:50:14   While also saying it was stupid and campy

01:50:17   I

01:50:17   Wouldn't be surprised having not even seen this video if we look fondly at oh look how adorable we were look what we thought where?

01:50:23   We thought we were going and yeah, we ended up taking two right turns three left turns and turning around three times

01:50:29   But you can see how that path started way back in 2021 with that ridiculously campy video and and

01:50:36   I don't think that's so terrible. I don't think it started there

01:50:40   I hope no one credits the Facebook metaverse with starting any of the fair

01:50:43   but I think the big difference in the knowledge navigator video is

01:50:46   for all its silliness

01:50:49   The knowledge navigator video was made by a company that you could say

01:50:53   Yeah, if I could like magically fast-forward Apple this company

01:50:58   50 years 100 years

01:51:00   I could see them making a product like this because this looks like the kind of product that we know Apple makes Apple makes these

01:51:08   Amazing products that are like the knowledge navigator, but with like older tech, right? That's exactly what Apple makes

01:51:14   hardware software products that Wow us and

01:51:17   So when they make a video even if it's something like knowledge navigator that has no bearing on any

01:51:22   Active product efforts whatsoever. It's worse than metaverse because metaverse like that Facebook is working on stuff related to this

01:51:29   It's not that far away. It is technically plausible knowledge navigator was not technically plausible by any stretch of the imagination

01:51:36   There was no product inside Apple that it looked anything like that. Even the Newton wasn't as did not spring from knowledge navigator

01:51:43   Right. It was just pure fantasy

01:51:45   But when you looked at it, you would say yeah like it was this was a sci-fi novel

01:51:50   It was the far future and Apple still existed. This is what Apple would making would be making

01:51:55   If we look at Facebook today, and we said okay if I could fast forward Facebook 100 years 200 years

01:52:01   What kind of thing would would Facebook be making we would envision something like?

01:52:06   From what he called?

01:52:08   the Mike Judge movie idiocracy

01:52:10   Ow, my balls with all the ads all around the thing. That's what we would envision Facebook making in a hundred years

01:52:17   We would never envision them making the metaverse because that's not the type of thing that Facebook makes we think about Facebook

01:52:24   We think about the blue app and we say okay

01:52:26   What is the blue app look like in a hundred years in 50 years or whatever and nobody says?

01:52:31   Oh, it looks like the metaverse and that's what Facebook is trying to do trying to say

01:52:35   Stop extrapolating from where everything you know a Facebook and saying what that would be like we're gonna change

01:52:40   We're gonna be a different company where we're gonna make this other thing and I look and I say no you're not

01:52:44   Maybe someone else will or maybe you copy them when they do or maybe you'll buy them when they do

01:52:48   But I look at that and I don't see how you get from where you are to that

01:52:53   Whereas with knowledge navigator I say yeah

01:52:54   I remember watching that and saying that totally looks like some cool product Apple would have in the future

01:52:59   it's kind of hilarious to look at though because if you think of the things that didn't didn't come to fruition like

01:53:04   The massive size of the camera parts like if they had made the knowledge navigator video where the cameras were invisible pinholes

01:53:10   We'd be like that's so stupid. They didn't even try like that's impossible right look here

01:53:15   We are today with these tiny little devices

01:53:17   But amazing screens with better resolutions and smaller borders and that stupid knowledge navigator

01:53:21   Including like flexible bendable things without without a crease where the hinges and everything that stuff. We've got all that already

01:53:29   I don't know how long ago knowledge navigator was because I can't do decade math because I always end up dropping a decade or two

01:53:34   but like the gigantic camera and microphone setup and the

01:53:39   Pinstripes and all this other stuff our actual technology is so much better than they envisioned right on the other hand

01:53:45   The the one part is like oh an intelligent photo realistic assistant that works

01:53:50   Well, we can't do that worth a damn Marco can't even get a cylinders to play music. So, you know

01:53:54   the typical sort of future thing where

01:53:57   like in some ways people can't can't

01:54:03   They can't allow for the things that are really going to progress like the idea that cameras and microphones

01:54:08   Would get so much smaller and so much higher quality to basically disappear if you tried to do that in sci-fi

01:54:15   You know 50 years ago people would reject it and say well that's impossible. You're just making up fantasy, right?

01:54:21   Whereas if you take something and just make it incrementally better like oh a personal assistant that can do what you ask like well today

01:54:28   We have computers that we can talk to and they can understand our speech and so probably in 20 years

01:54:32   They'll be able to be like little people. It's like self-driving cars all over again

01:54:35   people are notoriously bad like

01:54:38   Picking the things that will advance rapidly and the things that won't because they don't understand how hard the how

01:54:44   relatively hard the problems are they can't look at like

01:54:46   What do sensors and camera technologies and integrated circuits look like and if we extrapolate those technologies in a boring linear way?

01:54:54   Over time will we get tiny cameras that are so small that you can't even see them

01:55:00   versus if we extrapolate

01:55:02   How well this little remote control car can make it through a maze in a lab to a real full-size car on our current roads

01:55:08   There is no straight line path between those two things

01:55:12   And so if you look at the knowledge navigator think about the parts of it that they got hilariously wrong

01:55:19   like that this is an amazing future technology with some stuff in it that

01:55:22   like honestly was only like

01:55:25   one or two years

01:55:27   worse than what they had then and

01:55:30   And in particular screens cameras microphones batteries and the size of the devices all of that

01:55:35   They got hilariously wrong because the iPad stomps all over the knowledge navigator in every way

01:55:41   Except there's no little guy with the bow diode all your stuff for you

01:55:44   Thanks to our sponsors this week

01:55:48   Linode Mac Weldon and Squarespace and thanks to our members who support us directly you can join and preserve

01:55:55   Podcasting which is one of these awesome things that we still have at ATP FM slash join. Thanks everybody

01:56:02   We will talk to you next week

01:56:04   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:56:13   was accidental

01:56:16   John did any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

01:56:24   It was accidental

01:56:26   And you can find the show notes at ATP FM

01:56:32   And if you're into Twitter

01:56:34   You can follow them at

01:56:37   Cas

01:56:39   ey L

01:56:41   ISS so that's Casey lists ma RC o ar m

01:56:45   anti Marco Arman

01:56:48   sir AC

01:56:51   USA Syracuse

01:56:53   May I tell you a quick story about how I'm an idiot I would love to hear this my favorite kind of story

01:57:13   the other day Aaron was out with Declan at a outdoor birthday party and

01:57:20   She was returning home and she got home and said to me. Oh, you know my key

01:57:25   Wouldn't unlock my car and she you know, she has a Volvo XC 90

01:57:29   It's a few years old now and it's a proximity key where you just have to walk up to it

01:57:33   Grab the door handle and then it should open right up

01:57:35   So the first challenge for her and I didn't know any of this until she got home

01:57:39   So she obviously made it home successfully without my intervention

01:57:41   But you know, she said well, I had to figure out how to get my car now

01:57:45   Most cars and the Volvo is is one of them

01:57:48   There is some sort of physical key like you would have had, you know, ten years ago or you know given

01:57:53   John's choice of cars John probably still has one

01:57:56   There's a physical key that you could put in some sort of keyhole to actually unlock the automobile

01:58:03   You know my you know the valet key doesn't do that

01:58:05   I was trying to give the valley key to like the dealership

01:58:08   But I realized I can't lock my car then because the valley key will not unlock the car from the outside

01:58:12   I guess that's kind of the point but I thought it would just not open the trunk

01:58:14   But it won't even open the car doors that seems backwards to me

01:58:17   So if the valet accidentally locks your car, they can't get back in right?

01:58:21   Well, they can't but you can't lock the car with the valley key doesn't have it's no there's no remote on it

01:58:26   So you can't lock the car with it. You can't like lock it and then close the door

01:58:29   No

01:58:30   It's not like the safety thing to keep you from locking things out

01:58:33   Like you can't if you physically try to do that and you close the door like it's it's got weird locks

01:58:37   It won't let you I guess could you like the key?

01:58:40   I don't think you could even lock the valley key in the car

01:58:42   I don't think it's possible for you to do because I think if you get out of the car and

01:58:45   Try to like lock the door handle thingy. It's it's weird

01:58:49   But anyway, if you're outside the car with the valley key, there's nothing you can do to make the doors on the car lock

01:58:54   So all kidding aside as much as I'm sparking on you. Is it a proximity key or is it a traditional?

01:58:59   No, it's a piece of metal. Okay, so but there's like is there not a keyhole you could stick the valley key into

01:59:05   Yeah, you can you can turn it. It does not lock the car. Huh? That's weird

01:59:09   It is weird, but I was saying is like that. Yeah

01:59:12   Having what you're describing having a physical keyhole that you can put a key into and turn and make things lock

01:59:17   like in older in modern cars

01:59:20   There is an electronic component to that because you got the thing where if you lock the driver's door all the doors lock

01:59:25   That's electronics making that happen

01:59:27   But in older cars without those electronics

01:59:29   What you would have to do is manually lock all the other three doors or whatever doors and then

01:59:34   Manually lock the driver's door you could do that with a dead battery and it would still work. Yeah. Yeah

01:59:39   and so Aaron had to figure out how to get into her own car and

01:59:43   The Volvo has a app that's very well designed although a little quirky to use

01:59:49   I think it's called like Volvo on call or something like that where she could unlock the car remotely

01:59:53   That's what she did and I guess which seems odd to me

01:59:56   But I guess once she got in the car there was enough juice to transmit to get the proximity ignition

02:00:02   Portion to work so she could start the car and drive home

02:00:05   But but curiously there wasn't enough to get her car to unlock itself

02:00:10   so

02:00:11   as I told her when she got home well of the three cupholders in the center of the car because hashtag America even though it's a

02:00:16   It's a somewhat sweet or somewhat Chinese car

02:00:19   If you put the key in the middle cupholder, even if the battery is just dead dead dead dead dead, then it will still

02:00:25   Using like NFC or something. We'll be able to turn the car on so she gets home and

02:00:30   You know, she explains to me. Oh, it's not working. So okay

02:00:33   It's probably about time we changed the battery and it's one of those typical coin cell

02:00:36   you know little pancake II batteries and and I open up her key fob and I pull out the battery in her in her key fob and

02:00:43   I replace it with one that's brand new and I did this in the kitchen. The garage is right off the kitchen

02:00:50   I left the people door to the garage open and you know, I tried to boop boop on the key fob

02:00:55   You know just the traditional boop boop function to unlock or lock the car or whatever, you know

02:00:58   Not the proximity portion of it just a traditional RF

02:01:01   You know lock or unlock and doesn't work

02:01:03   Huh? Okay

02:01:06   Okay, so I think I forget exactly the order of order of operations here

02:01:10   But I might have tried a second battery if I'm not mistaken second brand new battery and that didn't work

02:01:14   Huh?

02:01:16   So I go and get my key fob and I verify that it is still working

02:01:20   So it doesn't seem to be the car

02:01:22   We don't think it's something power or key fob related and I think okay. Well this battery definitely works

02:01:29   I'm going to take this battery and I'm going to put it in Aaron's key and

02:01:32   I do that and I at some point I saw a piece of plastic kind of appear out of nowhere

02:01:39   Which I didn't expect but we're gonna put that aside for a second in one way or another

02:01:41   My battery I put my battery. That's what we in the business call foreshadowing kids

02:01:47   I put my battery into her key fob and I try to boop boop and it doesn't work

02:01:52   So then I put the battery back in my key fob the one that was working three minutes ago

02:01:58   And that doesn't work

02:02:00   So I've now murdered two key fobs in the span of about five minutes. Neither of them work

02:02:06   I verified that there's no plastic on the batteries. The batteries are dated for like 2027 or something like that. I

02:02:12   Have murdered both of her keys in span of five minutes. So

02:02:15   We conclude this was not this past Sunday night with Sunday prior. So we conclude. All right

02:02:21   What we're gonna do is we're still

02:02:23   Transporting Declan to school because we don't we're not really comfortable with him being on the bus

02:02:26   So I'm gonna take Declan to school in the morning and I'm gonna drive to Volvo with my tail between my legs and explain what happened

02:02:32   So that's what I did. I

02:02:34   Went to Volvo. I didn't lock her car because I didn't want to have to unlock it using the app or anything

02:02:40   I just parked it right in front of the service bay and said hey

02:02:43   I went to change these batteries and I done I done messed up

02:02:47   So what either of you guys like to make a guess or would you rather me just continue and just tell the rest of story?

02:02:53   But what what do you think happened if using positive and negative on the batteries fair question, but no I was not

02:02:59   The fact that a bit of plastic broke off. Is it the wrong kind of battery? Is it too big?

02:03:04   No that I like to think I'm smarter than that, but probably not so it's a fair question

02:03:10   Well, cuz there's like of all those like, you know

02:03:12   They like the cr2 203 twos and all like there's a whole bunch of very similar looking batteries that are different physical sizes. Mm-hmm

02:03:20   No, that was not it. So I tell my tale of woe to the very very kind person at Volvo of Richmond and

02:03:26   And he says oh, yes. This is this has happened before don't worry. I said well, okay

02:03:33   Before you do anything how much are?

02:03:36   Two new keys said about $400 each

02:03:38   Stupendous, okay

02:03:41   Each so we're I don't know and I said to Aaron the night before I said we're probably in for a thousand bucks

02:03:46   You gotta know what I did, but I bet we're in for a thousand bucks. And so it would have been somewhere between

02:03:50   500,000 bucks closer to a thousand than not but he says don't worry

02:03:54   This has happened before in fact, it is not unusual for somebody from batteries plus or you know

02:03:59   one of those like

02:04:00   You know

02:04:01   battery only retail stores to come in here and say I need a new key because I've broken my customers key and so then battery plus

02:04:07   Has to pay $400 for a new key

02:04:09   So what had happened was?

02:04:12   When I was ejecting the coin cell battery now mind you I have changed the battery in both of these key fobs before I'm almost sure

02:04:19   Of it because we got the car in mid 2017 and it's now four years later. So God is it really four years old?

02:04:24   Wow, it is

02:04:25   So I've changed these batteries at least once each but as it turns out

02:04:29   Even though in my personal opinion the Volvo XC 90 is a very well-designed car and and I really really love it

02:04:37   I really recommend it if you're interested in one

02:04:39   but nevertheless

02:04:41   the clips that hold the coin cell battery in and on to the contacts within the key are

02:04:48   Literally one to two millimeters wide like I cannot I cannot I guess understate how small they are

02:04:55   I mean, I can't overstate how small they are and apparently in the process of changing the battery I

02:05:00   Broke both of the clips, you know, so there are broke clips on both of the keys. I should say

02:05:08   No, I didn't I just they wouldn't come out so I levered them out use more force. Yep. Call me Clarkson

02:05:16   So he says we used to fold up pieces of paper to do this

02:05:20   But then you know Joe over there came up with a better solution

02:05:23   So he takes a few he walks a few faces down the big long desk

02:05:26   Goes in a drawer comes back with those little circle stickers. You would use to like put a price at like a tag sale

02:05:31   You know what? I'm thinking of and he takes like three or four of them

02:05:34   Puts them on the underside of the battery door and then sticks the door back on the key works

02:05:41   No problem. Does the same thing the other one?

02:05:43   I was out the door and maybe five ten minutes and spent zero dollars and I am forever indebted to the service department at Volvo

02:05:49   of Richmond so

02:05:50   Very five star service. I very appreciate very much appreciated them, but for the span of about I don't know 12 hours

02:05:57   I really thought I was out a thousand dollars because I apparently am too strong for my own good and

02:06:01   Manhandled those batteries a little too effectively not instill confidence in the design of the rest of this car that the inside of the of the

02:06:07   Key thing is designed to be so incredibly breakable

02:06:10   but agree, I don't I also don't know I would love to see but this thing looks like because I

02:06:15   Can't decide whether it's it's made like delicate glass on the inside or you're just a brute who just like

02:06:21   Goes in there like a I think like a bull in a china shop and just rips out the battery

02:06:26   I think it's a little of calm a little calm be I'll put it I haven't

02:06:29   Haven't verified this video, but I'll put a YouTube video of changing it

02:06:32   Into the show notes and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be able to find a timestamp right now to show you the clips

02:06:37   I'm talking about but I think it is both the clips truly are

02:06:40   extremely extremely small like hilariously small

02:06:44   But I also think on top of that I manhandled them and and ended up snapping them

02:06:48   so it looks like it's somewhere in the range of

02:06:52   two minutes 30 seconds or thereabouts that

02:06:56   That these clips are making appearance in the YouTube video. I put in the show notes and in the chat room

02:07:00   But yeah for a fleeting moment

02:07:02   I thought it was an idiot and the funny thing is I agree with you that this seems like a really crummy design

02:07:06   I think it is a crummy design

02:07:07   however on my on my golf are if I were to need to

02:07:12   quote-unquote break into it in or because you know

02:07:15   The battery is dead on my key fob

02:07:16   I need to actually like physically remove a portion of the trim on the door handle in order to expose the keyhole that I would

02:07:24   Need to use whereas on Aaron's car when you pull it's one of those grabby door handles

02:07:30   You know what?

02:07:30   I mean

02:07:30   So when you pull the door handle out

02:07:32   The the keyhole is right there in the space that you know in the in the space that's been exposed by pulling the door handle out

02:07:40   It's very hard to verbally explain

02:07:42   But my point is you don't like remove part of the friggin car in order to get to the keyhole

02:07:49   You do have to disassemble the entire key to get the key out, but that's neither here nor there

02:07:53   So yeah, the cars design very very good the key fob design

02:07:58   Terrible, absolutely terrible, but I thought you two would enjoy this tale of love

02:08:03   Yeah, I just like that in it the thing that's bad about the design isn't the fact that the little grabby things are delicate

02:08:08   It's the fact that the grabby things are necessary. Yeah, like the lid

02:08:13   You know the lid that goes on it

02:08:16   Why you know, why do you that that should be sufficient to keep the battery in place?

02:08:21   I could do most of the things to take a battery you put the battery in you put the little yeah

02:08:25   It's it's very silly

02:08:26   But anyway, the person in this video did not take it out particularly carefully and also did it without breaking it

02:08:32   So I don't know quite what you were doing

02:08:34   Yeah, I don't know. Apparently I was not being patient is what I was doing

02:08:39   But you know, did you use any tools to take the battery out or just your fingernail?

02:08:43   Yeah, I took the I took the like screwdriver. I had my hand to open up the battery door and

02:08:48   Knocked it right out. So there that that's yeah the power of the lever

02:08:52   [Door closes]

02:08:54   [BLANK_AUDIO]